Queensland
Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]
Legislative Assembly
TUESDAY, 22 MARCH 1949
Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy
Abattoirs Acts Amendment Bill. [22 MARCH.] Questions. 2H5
TUESDAY, 22 MARCH, 1949.
Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. S. J. Brassington, Fortitude Valley) took the chair at 11 a.m.
QUESTIONS.
PRIORITY FOR IRON AND STEEL. Mr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) asked the Premier- '' 1. Does the Co-ordinator-General exer cise any authority in the allocation of iron and steel coming into the State for use on governmental, semi-governmental, anrl local-authority \l·orks ~ "2. If so, on what basis does he make such allocation~ '' 3. Has the Co-ordinator-General pre pared a priority list of such jobs in con nection with the allocation of iron and steel~ '' 4. If so, will he make such priority liflt available to hon. members~'' Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane Secretary for Labour and Industry), for the Hon. E. M. HANLON, replied- '' 1. There is a great variety of steel and steel products arriving in ,Queensland. Control over a number of them, such as galvanised iron, butt-welded piping, reinforcing rounds and spun cast-iron piping is exercised by the Co-ordinator General of Public Works on a voluntary basis by arrangement with the merchants. '' 2. In the case of galvanised iron and butt-welded piping deliveries are madl' against schedules of priorities issued b~' the Co-ordinator-General of PUblic Works. No special allocations are made for govern mental, semi-governmental, or local authority works. In the case of reinforcing rounds and spun cast-iron piping, the Co ordinator-General allocates quantities to specific projects, based upon their urgency and essentiality. "3. No priority list of any such jobs is prepared, as the urgency and essentiality of some projects vary from time to time. '' 4. See answer to No. 3 above.''
WORK OF POWELL DUF~'RYN TECHNICAL SERVICES LIMI1'ED. Mr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) asked the Premier- '' 1. How much has been paid by the Government to the Powell Duffryn Tech nienl Services Limited to 28 February, 1949, or other reasonably near computing date~ '' 2. How much will the investigation~ at present being undertaken by the com pany eventually cost~ "3. Were any of the results of the eo m· pany 's investigations to date made knowu to the Electric Supply Corporation (Over seas) I~trl. or the Power and Tractio11 Finnnce Company Ltd.~ If so, will thoP.e two concerns pay any portion of the amount paid or tJ be pairl to the Powell Duffryn group~'' 2.146. Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.
Hen. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane per man shift, as against less than 3 tons in Secretary for Labour and Industry), for Australia, will he have full inquiries made the Hon. E. M. HANLON, replied- regarding this matter and advise the House ,: "1. £A43,563 10s. 5d. to 31 December, of the result thereof at an early date?" ~948. Payments to the company are made in London by the Agent-General for Hon. W. MOORE (Merthyr) replied- Queensland. ' 'Members of the Queensland Coal Board '' 2. It is expected that the cost will not and officers of the Department of Mines exeeed £A118,000. have been closely watching the development , "3. Yes, in respect of Blair Athol coal. of the continuous miner which, until quite f'owell Duffryn Technical Services Limited recently, was only in the experimental have been engaged as consultants by the stages. One of this type of machine is P?w:or an~ Traction Finance Company known as the ' Colmol' and an artiele on Limited with the approval of tile QuP.ens this machine is to be found in the Queens ~and Government. Only general information land Government Mining Journal for m regard to Blair Athol is required from February, 1949. The normal recent procedure t~e . Powell Duffryn Technical Services in coal mines, where machine mining is I;umted by the Queensland Government and practised, has been to cut, drill and load t~e costs of work done in connection there by separate units electrically driven. These . With have been appropriately apportioned methods usually necessitated the fitting or · between the Government and the Power moving from place to place of the respective and Traction Finance Company Limited units to complete the cycle of operations Any v.;ork done directly for Powell Duffry~ and, generally, the coal cutter was fitted 'rechmcal Services Limited for Power and to another place before the coal was blasted T:r:;ction Finance Company Limited is and the loader subsequently taken into that entirely at the cost of the latter company.'' place. Probably it will be known that heavy dredgers at Yallourn, Victoria, break and ".'lfJ<;mCAL ASSESSMENT TRIBUNAL AND FREE load the brown coal in a continuous opera MEDICINE SCHiEME. tion. The advantage of such practice was apparently first recognised in Germany and :Hr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) asked the in that country machines were first designed Secretary for Health and Home Affairs- to fulfil the whole cycle and successfully " 1. (a) Is the Medical Assessment operated on black as well as brown coal. Tribunal. established by the Government the Other European countries, including Britain, body wh1ch inquires into charges made in are designing and operating such machines. r~spect of member~ of the medical profes One continuous mining machine similar to the sw~ 7 (b). Has this body power to inflict 'Colmol' machine has recently been placed · ~umshment on doctors, even to deregistra on the Australian market and its capacity tJOn f (c) Doe~ the tribunal comprise a when operated with other necessary equip S?preme Court JUdge as chairman, together ment, as evidenced in a selected mine in With one representative each nominated by Southern Illinois, United States of America, the B.M.A. and the Government~ is stated to be 342 tons of coal in 6~ hours, ..' '2. Is the Government nominee on the the machine being serviced by three men . tnbunal the president of the B.M.A. ~ It is understood that one of these machines, which will require four electric motors . '' 3. Will he cause inquiries to be made aggregating 130 horse power to operate, ., ·as to whether the reluc;tance of many weighs about 35 tons and costs about Queensland doctors to support the Federal £22,000. It must be borne in mind that Government's Free Medicine Scheme can the installation of such a machine would, he attributed to the dominating influence of in addition to the required heavy initial the B.M.A. on the State Medical AssesR outlay, necessitate the provision of adequate me~t .Tribu~al and their consequent fear ;f arrangements for transporting this large ['mntive actwn by such tribunal when thev quantity of coal, the purchase of suitable :1ppear before it on any charge~'' • shuttle cars or other means of transport Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers) to cope with the output of the machine rl'plied- and to facilitate its despatch to the surface by adequate haulages. Surface installations ,' 1, 2, and 3. The Medical Assessment would also require to be adequate to assure 'l~ribunal is const!tuted by a Judge of the the prompt delivery of the coal. The initial Supreme _Court w1th sole jurisdiction under cost of the machine and its auxiliary the Medical Acts which provide that aH equipment and installations would be so 1 1 it must be realised that the product of the COL MOL'' COAL-MINING MACHINE. machine would meet only sectional trade requirements, as from appearances a pre li!Jr •..NICKLIN (Murrumba-Leader of ponderance of small coal would result. The OppositiOn) asked the Secretary for Mine:r- existing layout of almost all Queensland ''In reference to the new coal mining collieries would at the present time not machine in U.S.A. called '' Colmol '' which permit of the introduction of this machine it is s~ated will shortly be mass 'produced into this State, but the Queensland Coal aJ11Jd w1ll have an output of 80 to 100 tons Board is closely watching its development Personal Explanation. [22 MARCH.] Abattoirs Acts Amendment Bill. 2 a47 and the results of its tests with a view to Mr. Devries: "Hansard" does not prove its trial in specially selected and prepared that point. Queensland mines when circumstances permit.'' Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Mr. MAHER: I did not think the hon. CA'rTLE BouGHT BY QuEENSLAND-BRITISH member for Gregory, for whom I have a FOOD CORPORATION. great deal of respect, would depart from the path of political virtue on 17 March, St. Mr. MAHER (West Moreton), for Mr. Patrick 's Day. SPARKES (Aubigny), asked the Premier In reference to the Queensland-British Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem Food Corporation Scheme- ber for West Moreton knows that persol!l.lli references in a personal explanation are '' 1. What cattle have been purchased, showing numbers, ages, and prices of each entirely out of onler. I hnve ruled th.a t repeatedly. ·' lot, and cost or estimated cost of delivery (if any), respectively~ '' 2. What is the estimated total cost of FOR:\1: OF QUESTION. such cattle, including delivery, to date~ Mr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) proceed '' 3. Where are such cattle now located~'' ing to give notice to the Attorney-Gencr.d of a question on the administration of iiw Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane prison at Stewart 's Crcek-- Secretary for Labour and Industry), for the Hon. E. M. HANLON, replied- Mr. SPEAKElt: Order! The hon. mem '' 1. Nil. Negotiations are however pro ber has been told from time to time that ceeding for the purchase of certain stores long questions will not be ndmitted. His for fa ttening on the Corporation's question is altogdhcr too long. property.'' "2. and 3. See answer to No. 1." Mr. AIKENS: I did the best I possibly could to condense this question. PERSONAL EXPLANATION. Mr. SPEAI{ER: Order! I assure the hon. member that I will condense it further Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) (11.9 if he does not keep it in bounds. a.m.), by leave: I wish to make a personal explanation. The hon. member for Gregory stated during the debate on the Abattoirs PAPERS. Acts Amendment Bill in the House last week The following papers were laid on the that I had stated when speaking earlier, ''All table:- squatters were poddy-dodgers,' '-Government interjections-and ''They were driving sheep Orders in Council ( 2) under illoe and cattle from State stations onto their Profiteering Prevention Act of 1148 own properties. ' ' (10 March). Order in Council under the Supreme Court Government Members: That is what you said, too. Act of 1921 (10 March). Regulation under the Public Curator Act8, Itlr. MAHER: I most emphatically deny 1915 to 1947 (10 March). having made either of the statements Rule under the Mines Regulation Acts, attributed to me by the hon. member for 1910 to 1945 (10 March). Gregory. Mr. Collins: Everybody heard you. ABATTOIRS AC'l'S AMENDMENT BII,L. Mr. MAHER: The words "paddy INITIATION IN COMMITTEE-RESUMPTION OF dodgers'' were not uttered by me. DEBATE. ::llr. Power: They were so; I heard you. (The Chairmnn of Committees, Mr. Maun, Mr. MAHER: And I certainly did not Brisbane, in the chair.) · say that squatter~ were driving sheep an(] Debate resumed from 17 March (see page cattle onto thmr own properties from 2145) on Mr Collins 's motion- neighl1ouring State cattle stations. ( Gm·er:; '' That it is desirable that a Bill be meut intcrjcetions.) introduced to amend the Abattoirs Agree Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem ment Ratification and Meat Industry Acts, ber for West Moreton! 1930 to 1932, for the purnose of regulating and controlling the slaughtering of stock Mr. MAHER: The hon. member for for human consumpt]on in areas addi· Gregory said also, ''I leave 'Hansard' to tional to the metropolitan abattoir area, decide the point.'' If he will be good and for other purposes.'' enough to rend through my speech on the subject, a~ conta.ined in "Hansard" No. 28, Mr. PIE (Windsor) (11.17 a.m.): I think page 2118, he wrll find that what T say n01Y the majority of hon. members agree in is absolutely correct. · principle with the Government's control of abattoirs. I believe that is a common need; Mr. Gair: That is after you checked the it is right that abattoirs should be controlled proof. to some degree. It is also right that the 2l48 Abattoirs Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment BiU. Tcg11lations controlling the slaughtering of power by which anything can be truken from stock for human consumption in areas addi· anybody at the will of the Government or tional to the metropolitan abattoir area, and the Governor in Council. for other purposes, be controlled. Mr. Aikens: And Blair AthoL To my way of thinking, the most important Mr. PIE: Yes, Blair Athol is another. phase of the Bill is the controlling of the The people whose rightS' have bee;n acquired, slaughtering of stock. Last week the hon. the people who built up Blair Athol over a member for Kelvin Grove brought into this period of years, have not been considered in Chamber part of an animal the slaughtering the negotiations with the overseas organisa of which could not, by the greatest stretch tions. The people who have done the work of imagination, have been controlled. over the years, and who are still willing to Jlr. Maher: A prehistoric mountain goat. put QueenSland money into the development of the area, have not been consulted. I say Jlr. PIE : Hon. members on this side and that this business of acquisition is based on on the other side who are in a position to Socialism pure and simple. Any man coul-d judge told me that the animal was not a build up a business to large dimensions and lamb, that it was a diseased undernourished then the Government could turn round and animal; it had suffered from malnutrition. say, "We will take this businesS! over for The hon. member himself said that the the common good of the people.'' Surely hutcher had bought it for its fleece. How that is wrong in principle in a free country could fleece be on a lamb, and why would like Australia. You could understand it in he buy it for thaU Communist Russia but not in a country like ours. This power of acquisition has to be The Minister has a clear obligation to fought at every turn by every Opposition in inquire fully into that incident, and to ascer Parliament. tain where the hon. member for Kelvin Grove got the animal. If it came out of the Mr. Devries: You would not say that Brisbane abattoir a complete inquiry is war Blair A thol has been developed f ranted because it is wrong that animals such Mr. PIE: I say that it has been ns that should be placed on the market for developed an;l the only reason why Blair human consumption. Athol has not been furthe.r developed is that I hope that this Bill will mean that in this Government will not put in the transport future the slaughtering of stock will be con to take the coal from the mine. trolled. The sample brought here by the hon. member for Kelvin Grove is a disgrace to the The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. State. That night I had lamb for dinner member is getting away from the subject and could hardly eat it becau:se of my matter before the Coi!l!Illittee. thoughts of what I had seen in this Chamber Mr. PIE: You can blame the hon. mem earlier in the day. The Minister has a clear ber for Gregory for that. obligation to demand from the hon. member for Kelvin Grove the name of the place from The CHAIRMAN: Order! >Yhich he got that animal and the circum stances under which he got it, and to ascertain Mr. PIE: Let us analyse this question ot '':.hether that ty~e of animal is still being confiscation. The Minister himself said that killed at the Bnsbane abattoir. I was in he could confiscate and I think it was the Townsville the week before last, and it was hon. member for Fitzroy w)lo said that this common knowledge up there that the Ross Bill was being brought in so that we can River meatworks would be acquired for the acquire. The Minister said that the Queens rlevelopment of abattoirs in that area. land Meat Industry Board would have power to buy established meatworks in any part of Jllr. Aikens: And the soone·r the better. the State if necessary but he did not say ''to acquire whether a man wants it or not.'' Mr. PIE: That may be right-the sooner I say the Government should not have the the better-but I want to, deal with the power to acquire compulsorily. J)?wer of acquisit.ion .that is going through nrtually all legiSlation brought down bY A Government Member interjected. this Government. It is the socialistic powe!· that ~akes from . the people, whether they Jllr. PIE: If the Government advocate want 1~ or not, Withor;t the right of appeal, the establishment of meatworks or abattoirs somet~mg that they m1ght have. built np over for the common good of the, people let them a .P~nod of years. It is likle acquiring the establish them themselves but do not take }fimster 's farm on the Atherton T·ableland compulsorily from other people something nlthough he does not want to sell it. It is they have built up over th.e• year& How like acquirin~ our personal possessions, things would any hon. member like to have anything we ;hav~ b~1lt up over the, years. If this he owned compulsorily acquired from him 9 power 19 given to any Government ad lib And that is the power they are giving the every meatworks in the State could b~ Government in this Bill. :1cqnired. Lake's Creek, for example, could Mr. Roberts: What about Brisbane he taken for this purpose; every meatworks busses~ nn-d businesses built up by anybody could be ncquired at the will of the Governme;nt. I Mr. PIE: I am not arguing about that. say that that feature in our legislation is [ am saying that the power to aeqnire is wrong. We saw it exemplified in the Co wrong in principle and I will fight it at all ope.rative Bill and the C.O.D. Bill. It is a times. Abattoirs Acts [22 MARCH.] Amendment Bill. 2149 Two wrongs do not make a right. It has Let me go a little further_ We must see be€ill suggested, and I think with erome where this course is going to take us. The foundation, that this Government intend to Secretary for Agriculture and Stock has go in for State stations again. The hon. never satisfactorily replied to the allegation member for Aubigny brought the matter by the hon. member for Aubigny that the before the Committee. I have since got Government are getting back into the cautle information on the matter and I know that trade, that they intend deveJoping the fat the Government are acquiring fat cattle. stock in<:lustJry. He evaded the issue again vVhat did State stations cost us in the to-day, when in reply to a question he simply pasU Only £1,669,894, with £324,498 said that negotiations wer proceeding. Let for uncharged interest. The Government us know what the negotiations are. Does he are going into the business again and intend to use the powers in the Bill to they cannot go into it unless Socialism acquire 20,000 head of fat cattle so as to is the basis of t.heir policy. Speaking on establish an abattoir in a particular area, this very subject the hon. member for or do uhe Government intend to build up Gregory said, ' 'When I get on the public State stations to a stage where they can run platform I will tell the; people that Socialism these abattoirs an<:l forget about the resn of is our objective.'' The power of acquisition, the peoplef The hon. member for Gregory which the Minister says is contained in the spoke at great length about the Winton Bill, is an underhand way of bringing abantoir that had been closed and went on Socialism into operation. Socialism leads to say that 70,000 head of cattle were to totalitarianism and totalitarianiem leads going down through the back areas into to Communism, and Communism is Socialism. New South Wales and South Australia and They are all the one breed. You cannot that they were not being slaughtered in distinguish them. Then you have members Queensland, but he did not analyse the of the GoverllllWnt saying, ''No, we are situation to discover the :reaS' Mr. PIE: They are plentiful. Even the same as they are working on down he~e. 'at the hon. member for Grogory said that 70,000 abattoir so that the people in the North can cattle pass through the Winton district every have the fresh vegetables they need. I think year. the Burdekin area is an ideal one for grow Mr. Devries: I said we might say 70,000 ing vegetables for supply to such abattoirs l>ead of cattle travel each year from the to provide for the off season. Northern Territory to New South Wales. As I said, I agree with the principle of the Government control of abattoirs. I have Mr. PIE : This Bill gives the Government no fight with that. It is the common need power to acquire. The Premier would not of the people that they should have fresh like his personal property to be taken over, meat and not meat like that which was yet there is the power of acquisition in this brought into this Chamber last week. 1 Bill. The hon. gentleman's background in believe the Government are probably the only this State is one of success in business, and people who can control the abattoirs effectively yet under this Bill after success has been and give us good meat and not stuff like attained by the private owner there is power the rubbish we saw. Somebody has fallen for the Government to acquire at any time down on his job when meat like that which if they think it is for the common good. If we saw last week is allowed to go out for you build up something by devoting yonr human consumption. The sooner that kind of whole life to it, how would you like a thing is stopped the better. Government to say, "We are taking this business over at this price'' and to have Mr. Hanlon interjected. no right of appeal~ In principle that is all Mr. PIE: I will argue with the Premier wrong. on that. This new Bill says, ''for the pUT This business of Socialism is developing. pose of regulating and controlling." If The power of acquisition is the root evil of meat was properly regulated and controlled Socialism. The Premier knows it. He knows in the Brisbane abattoirs we should not have it is the power to enable any Government to such meat as we saw in this Chamber last control the life of the community. That is week. the main challenge I have against this legis lation. I agree in principle to the Govern Mr. Hanlon: I do not know where. it was ment control of abattoirs. I believe it is killed. a common need but I do not believe that Mr. PIE: .Surely the Government .have the Government should have the right to an obligation to find out where it was killed~ acquire compulsorily a private business that The hon. member for Kelvin Grove said it has been built up over a period of years, was killed in the abattoir here and he said and that they should take such business over it was branded ''Lamb.'' By the greatest ad lib. I discussed this question at Towns stretch of imagination you could not think it ville only last week in an endeavour to dis was lamb. That is something the Govern cover what was the common need of the ment should inquire into. If they are sincere people. Apart from good meat their need is in their desire to regulate and control that to obtain a supply of fresh vegetables and is what they would do. fruit and I suggest that any abattoirs to he Mr. Collins: We have to control private established should have associated with it a enterprise. The lamb never belonged to the snap-freezing plant such as we have at the abattoir; it belonged to the butcher. Brisbane abattoir so that in a glut seafOll Yegetables and fruit can be stored. Mr. PIE: Yet the abattoir will kill that Mr. Hanlon: Do you say the· Townsville type of animal, although under this Bill the people do not want any meaH Government have power to regulate and con trol. If any Government will allow any person Mr. PIE: The hon. gentleman cannot to kill stuff such as that for human con twist what I say. It is common rumour in sumption they are a disgrace to the, com Townsville that the Government intend munity. I think strong action should be under this Bill to take over the Ross River taken in that regard if the Government meatwoTks. If so, a snap-freezing unit should intend to be sincere in the matter of regu be attached to it to give the people there lating and controlling for human consump supplies of fresh fruit and vegetables, d1iel! tion, as it says in the Bill. they need. The only kick I have against the Bill is that The CHAIRMAN: Order! There is the Government are going in for acquiring nothing in the Bill about that. this and that. When we look at their sorry repord of acquisition, we realise what a f_ailun• Mr. PIE: I do not want to disagree with it has been in the past. Things wen~ g?mg to you, Mr. Mann, but the motion reads- be so good according to ''Socialism at '' That it is desirable that a Bill be Work '' but' when you consider the results introduced to amend the Abattoirs Agree you ~ealise how in1possible it is fo"!" t~e ment Ratific:1tion and Meat Indmtry Ads. Government to acquire and run an;·thmi!' 111 1930 to 1932, for the purpose of regulating competition with private enterprrse. The nnd controlling the slaughtering of stock Government have only one right, and that. is for human eonsumption in areas additional to acquire for a need. If they cannot acqmre to the metropolitan abattoir area, and for a meatworks voluntarily they should put an other purposes.'' abattoir in that place, but not destroy the I suggest that they should give every con· business worked up over a period. Look at sideration to this matter and provide for the the export trade, look at the canning tr~dc, establishment of a snap-freezing unit, the nnd look nt the 'll·hole effect that Ross R1ver Abattoirs Acts [22 MARCH.] Amendment Bill. 2151 meatworks has on Townsville. T'hey could be When the supplies of meat held by the destroyed overnight by this power of· acquisi Q.M~E. Company at Ross River meatworks tidn. In principle it is entirely wrong; and imd the A.M.E. Company at Alligator Creek as far as I am concerned~and I think the meatworks were depleted, there was no supp~:y majority of our party agree-! am opposed for domestic consumption. No cattle were to . the compulsory acquisition of anything. coming in for slaughtering and consequently the Government had to take action. We had Mr. KEYATTA (Townsville) (12.39 forewarned the Deputy Premier and the p.m.): The Bill does not lay down solely the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock that there power of acquisition, but it states that the might be some reaction with regard to the Government may act by negotiation; in other supply of meat for Townsville. ·words they may arrange with the different organisations or companies to provide for the We did that because of a rem:u-k I had killing of cattle. overheard and because of the action that was As to the acquisition clause, that is no contemplated by the master butchers. The more nor less than that provided in the law master butchers did say that fresh meat was today, which gives power to acquire for public not available, but, the Minister and Deputy purposes and to acquire public utilities. The Premier having been forewarned, had ear law already gives power of acquisition or marked 'a quota of frozen meat from La~e's resumption. This Bill means that the same Creek. This tided us over for a penod. ean be done in the livestock sphere, but the When that supply was exhausted we got meat Bill does not definitely lay down that the from the Gladstone works and later from Government will acquire cattle. In his Brisbane. introduction the Minister in his capable 'l'he hon. member for 1\{undingburra states manner set out that negotiations will that he was here fighting the people's cause he entered in to. The Bill does not definitely and endeavouring to obtain a supply of meat lay it down that acquisition shall be effected while the hon. member for Kennedy and the on · the set-up as it is at present. hon. member for Townsville were not doing Mr. MAHER: This is for the Ross River so. He suggested that we were 830 miles meatworksf away, and he also alleged that we were not worrying about the troubles of the people of the time is to attack not only the hon. mem will be welcomed by master butchers in every ber for Kennedy and the hon. member for city and town where a central selling yard 'fownsville but also the Government and he and abattoir should be established. In tries to base his attack on our alleged failure Townsville there are probably three or four, and the alleged failure of the Government to or more butchers, killing their own supplies take effective action and to live up to our of beef and that adds to the cost of living. responsibilities. I believe one part of the case put up by the I want to tell hon. members that my master butchers in Townsville was that the tolerance, my temperament and my peace of extra costs of employing men to kill a certain mind are quite different from those of the number of bodies and then putting them on hon. member for Mundingburra. I do not other work so that they might get their full go out onto the hustings and blow my trum time in are very heavy. That was one reason pet as to what I am doing. It is what I do why this Bill was introduced. Under the by e!'fective representation that counts. I present system, in the provincial centres such challenge the hon. member for Mundingburra as Toowoomba, Gympie and other large to deny that my representation on behalf of towns, stock for human consumption are my electors has been more effective than his. slaughtered all over the place. His flamboyant attempts to decry the repre As to the piece of alleged mutton that we sentations of the hon. member for Kennedy saw here last week, that is a thing that could and myself do not carry weight with our happen in the country towns where there is ele~t?rs. ~y representation all through my no central killing. In small country towns political history has been effective and has such as Ingham there are four slaughteryards brought results. I dislike having to make and you cannot expect a slaughtering inspector reference to the remarks of the hon. member or a health inspector to inspect the beef or for Mundingburra but I am bound to say mutton that is killed in those small towns th~t ~ have never f:;tiled to give my electors every day. effective representatiOn notwithstanding that today I am temporarily living in Brisbane, for Mr. Maher: That was a leg of ancient reasons that are beyond my control. If I am goat. compelled to live in Bnsbane, if I have to be with my wife, my heart is nevertheless with Mr. JESSON: I am told it came off one my people in Townsville. of the hon. member's properties. In our shire there are four or five slaughteryards Mr. Marriott: I thought your heart was with your wife. killing stock and it is impossible for the inspector to inspect all the killings at those Mr. KEYATTA: My heart and my loyalty yards. That happens throughout Queensland. are with my wife, but I am loyal to my I have not met the person who is not willing people also. If the hon. member for Bulimba to kill a lumpy bullock and just remove the gave only half as much thought and time lumpy part, if he can get away with it. 1 to his electorate as I do to mine he would have seen pork that was badly infected with do a good job. I never fail to 'peruse the cancer. The legs and other parts were cut 'l'ownsville papers and j;o look into every off and sold for human consumption. det!lil. affec~ing the life of the people. My ma1l 1s a b1g one and I do not fail to make An Opposition ])!ember: Where· does that representation on any point no matter happen~ whether it be raised by the Townsville A.L.P., or any other organisation or elector. Mr. JESSON: This was years ago. If any matter is for the benefit of mv elec Mr. Jiaher: You are drawing a long bow. torate I make representations to the "proper authorities. .Mr. JESSON: No, it happened in certain I refer to this matter because an attack places; and it can happen now in placee lm~ be~n made on me from that angle. I take where a stock inspector cannot go. I suppose pnde m the fact that my representation is in my time I have eaten a couple of bullocks' greater than any other private member in this weight of lumpy beef myself, when I was Parliament. working out on the stations. I have never known a station-owner to shoot and destroy a Mr. Wanstall: Who raised the point? bullock that was lumpy. They always put them into the killing yard and give them to .Mr~ KEYATTA: The hon. member for Mundmgburra made an attack on me. I their employees to eat. That is done every had previously taken up with the Secretary day in the week on the cattle stations. I saw for ~griculture and Stock and the Deputy it done myself the other side of J ulia Creek Pretmer, who was thBn the Acting Premier, 20 odd years ago. t~l8 matter of meat for the people of Towns Mr. Maher: You did pretty well on it. nlle. The hon. member for Mundingburra has forced me to refer to these matters on Mr. JESSON: It did not kill me. The the floor of this ChambBr. fact remains that it is not supposed to be I support the Bill as I think it is a move done. This Bill will eliminate all that. Where in the right direction. I have confidence in there is one central killing yard a great asset the future and believe that the interests will be provided for the people and it will that have opposed this Bill very forciblv be welcomed by the butchers generally. have nothing to fear. ., When there is a saleyard where people can bring their stock to be sold it will be a great Mr. JESSON (Kennedy) (12.4 p.m.): I help. It will keep the cost clown and it will support the Bill, which is long overdue. It give the people decent beef. 2154 Abattoirs Acts [ASSEMBLY:] Amendment Bill. In the Ingham district many people have wEnt in an orderly way to get their meat in cane farms of 50 or 70 acres and another 400 the ordinary course, but they were scared by or 500 acres of grass land on which they newspaper propaganda, which is the real Fifth run a few cows. They often buy young stock Column in this country. They were frightened from other farmers and fatten them for sale. because of the scare propaganda that was The butcher comes along and says: ''I will used that they would not be able to get give you a fiver a head.'' If there was a meat. There was any amount of meat in central saleyard to which the farmers could Townsville for the needs of the people. send their fat stock, they would get full value. The fact that the butcher buys them Mr. Maher: You are attacking the cheaply is not an advantage to the consumer rL'ownsville butchers. who pays the full fixed price for his beef. Mr. JESSON: I am attacking the Towns If there was a central saleyard the cattle ville ''Daily Bulletin,'' the Commos and a woulcl be sold at the correct price and that few others who organised this fear complex. would encourage these people to do more grazing. They arc not encouraged to do so .Mr. Maher: Even the Minister attacks today because the butcher comes along and the Townsville butchers. You say there wns says he will give the £5 or £6 or £8 and if plently of meat in Townsville. the farmer does not accept it but keeps the Mr. JE,SSON: It was these people I beast, the wet season may come on and it have mentioned who inspired this queue may lose weight and may not be worth any business. thing. Mr. Chalk: The Government bought the Mr. Maher: I never knew a cattle man meat and sent it up. as green as that. ltir. JESSON: Plenty of meat was sent Mr. JESSON: I am not talking of cattle up by this Government at Government expense men; I am talking of mixed farmers. to keep the price down. There was any God's For the benefit of the hon. member, I will quantity of meat but the trouble was the bring him some sworn affidavits to the effect queue business, which was mostly inspired that butchers in my area have offered these to cause trouble to both the Federal and people a price for their stock that was not State Governments. Had there been a Tory half the market price; yet these butchers Government in power there would have been charge top prices for the meat. This Bill no meat at all for Townsville. will stop that sort of thing. The owner has to accept the price or let his stock die of ltlr. Maher: Who is at the back of the old age on his property. The butcher does queue business~ not care a damn about the people the hon. ltir. JESSON: I do not know. You might member referred to the other day as "paddy :just as well ask me where flies go in the dodgers.'' winter-time. These things are inspired, but Mr. Muller: You would not expect to one cannot pin down the originator. They protect the fool against himself. are inspired by whisperers in the community and surely the hon. member would know about Mr. JESSON: I do not know how the the whisperers in the community. One ''an hon. member has been protected for a very not nail down the man who starts a rumour long time. about anybody, but once the ~umou_r has This Bill is an excellent one and it is only started it snowballs. If a man m Bnsbane those who must oppose everything, such as the cuts his finger off, by the time the news of Opposition, who are opposing it at all, and the incident gets to North Queensland his dragging red herrings across the tra~l. As hand has been cut off. This is caused hv a matter of fact, this Bill has been designed the continual whispering of rumour-monger~. for the common good of the people at large. If a man has a little bit of a headache in The people who will not do the right thing Brisbane by the time the news gets to the by the common people at large must be dealt North p~ople are organising plebiscites. with, and dealt with severely. There is only one way to do a thing, and that is the right Mr. Pie: How? wav. Those people who will not do a right Mr. JESSON: The hon. member knows job have to be forced to do it and that is as well as I. rrhc man who starts a rumom· all there is to it. If we accepted the argu can never be nailed down. The scandal ments put forward by the Opposition, we monger can never be nailed down. As I say, might as well let all the criminals out of in TownsYillc they started this queue business gaol. This is a provision that will stand over but if the people went in an orderly way to the heads of those people who will not do the get their meat there would be no necessity right thing by the majority of the people of for the hon. member for Mnndingburra to this State. work himself into a frenzy and incite a I support the remarks of the hon. member revolution in the main street of Townsville. for T'ownsville as to the statement made the Furthermore, as to the hon, member for other day by the hon. member for Munding rrownsville an cl my living 800 miles a \Ya;·, burra. It is all right for that hon. member and the hon. member's suffering up to say that he had to stand in a queue to get there with his electors, as a matter of his family meat, but do not forget that there fact we attended many conferences. At the are only two in the family. Most of the principal conference that we attended thel'e queues in Townsville are inspired. As a were representath·es of the Departme!).t. of matter of fact, there was plenty of meat for Agricultmc and Stock, the Railway Depart the needs of the people in Townsville if they meut, the Queensland Meat Industry Board, Abattoi1'8 Acts [22 MARcH.] Amendment BiU. 2155 and Swifts and other meatworks. We sat Mr. JESSON: Of course it was. The in conference one afternoon from 2 p.m. to Government sent up all choice beef, but ;) p.m., when an arrangement was arrived at. these rumours were being spread round An Opposition Member: The hon. mem Townsville with the consequence that people ber for Aubigny was not there. rushed in and formed queues in an endeavour to get the best of the meat early in the day Mr. JESSON: He was not. He was so that those who came in the afternoon being paid twenty-one guineas for heifers to were left with only the poor cuts. I know he sold by black marketeers at 3s. 6d. a pound. some people in Townsville who got a very Every bit was called fillet, even the bit that nice roast of beef at 4 o'clock one Friday comes off the tail. afternoon, and I repeat that the queue Mr. liAHER: I rise to a point of order. business was inspired. I do not think it is right for the hon. mem I wish to refute what the hon. member for ber for Kennedy to insinuate that the hon. Mundingburra said, that we were sitting member for Aubigny sold his cattle on the down here doing nothing. The hon. member black-market. He sold them at Cannon 'Hill for Townsville, and I, with the help of the by auction. The term "black-market" has a Department of Agriculture and Stock, were n•ry nasty implication. I think it is offen very active. If any credit is to go to anyone sive to an hon. member of this Chamber, and for obtaining meat for the people of Towns ~is he is not here today I ask that the remark, ville, it should go to Mr. Keyatta and to me. which I know would be offensive to him, be No credit is due to the hon. member for withdrawn. It would be very offensive to Mundingburra. As tthe hon. member for 1ne. Townsville has said there is no record that The CHAIRMAN: Order! It is not the hon. member for' Mundingburra ever made <'ustomary for one hon. member to cast any representation in connection wi~h this reflections on another hon. member of the trouble. All he did was blow out h1s bags Chamber, and I suggest that the hon. mem in Townsville streets about Nugget Jesson, ber for Kennedy be more moderate in his as he most disrespectfully called me in this language when he is referring to other hon. Chamber for being in Brisbane whil~ he ~as members of this Committee. np in Townsville in the queue suffermg With his people. Mr. JESSON: I have nothing on my conscience because I did not say the hon. ~Ir. Muller: Why did you not invite him member for Aubigny sold his cattle on the to attend the conference'? black-market. I said he sold them here for £21 a head and the meat was sold in Sydney I\Ir JESSON: Because he was 800 mile·s to the black-marketeers. I suggest that the away: The people wanted meat immediately, hon. member for West Moreton go to a doctor and we acted immediately and got meat for and have his ears operated on, or his mind. them. I did not say anything about the hon. mem ber for Aubigny. In any case, he should I welcome the Bill and believe that in be here to defend himself instead of running many areas it will give those who ar.e grazing round doing his private business and selling as a side line a fair return for then efforts. his stock. His place is here. It will cut down expenses in abattoirs and the employment of men to kill cattle and do 1 was telling the Committee that I was other work to fill in their time. If the sitting at a conference table with the hon. people will not stand up to their obligations member for Townsville arranging for the of feeding the majority of the people by people of Townsville to get meat. We conciliation efforts or out of common decency studied the problem from every possible I believe that the Bill has power to force angle. We were supplied with figures from them to do so and I hope the Government the Railway Department. We were told how will force them if the occasion arise. r-attle were brought from North Queensland to Brisbane at a very cheap rate, passing Mr. CHALK (East Toowoomba) (12.21 several meatworks on the way down. We p.m.) : In introducing this measure, the learnt also, to my great astonishment, that Minister stated that it was for the purpose in Townsville it costs five times as much of regulating and controlling the. sla~ghtering to kill a beast as it does in Brisbane. All of stock for human consumptwrt m areas these things have an effect on the cost of additional to the metropolitan abattoir .a:r:ea. living and explain why the graziers of the So long as that is so, I for one am w1lhng ~ orth will not send stock to Townsville. to support the Bill as it is being. ~ntro~uced. I believe with the hon. member for Towns However there is a strong susp1c10n 1n the ,·ille, that what happened at Townsville was minds of the public-and judging by . the n deliberate attempt by the master butchers comments made in this Chamber in the mmds of Townsville to force up the price of meat of hon. members of ,the Opposition-that to the people. I say advisedly also that the this Bill is being introduced not only for queues were deliberately inspired by the purpose outlined, but also _as a means of whisperers and scandal-mongers. If the introducing a further plank m the La_bour people had gone along in an orderly way they Party's policy of socialisation. If that IS ~o would have got their meat without any I for one intend strongly to oppose the B1ll trouble. Rumours were being spread that because whilst we do agree that the estab there were no choice cuts of any kind. lishment of abattoirs fur the contrpl ?f )Ir. Collins: It was all choice beef meat for human consumption is desirable m that they got. the public good, we must also see that tl:te 2156 Abattoirs Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amerulment Bill. Bill is not made the medium of taking a Gregory, the hon. member for ·warrego, antl further step towards the socialisation of our the hon. member for Carpentaria, I should community. say that I have been on more Northern It is true that the establishment of stations than any other hon. member in this a?a_ttoirs and what might be termed regulated Chamber and it is just '' boloney'' for any killmg should tend to reduce costs and give hon. member to say that the graziers in the the people cheaper meat, maintaining at the North would stan·c the people of Towns same time a high standard of quality. I ville. quite agree that these facilities should be Mr. Aikens: How can you tell the differ provided and this set-up will be appreciated ence between a bullock and a speyed cow 'I m country areas. At present, in many country a_reas we have one inspector who is respon Mr. CHALK: The hon. member always sible for the control or the overseeing of has a great deal to say and I do not intend many slaughtering yards, and I agree with to reply to him. Much of what he has sai<1 what has been said, that one man cannot in this Chamber on this subject \Vas wrong possibly keep a complete oversight over the the graziers in the North would not try to killings in many slaughteryards in a par starYe the people. The master butchers ditl ticular area. But if we are to achieve the endeavour to get a fair return for thPir setting up of abattoirs and bring it to the meat, based on the price that they paid fm· point of achievement by what might be the cattle. How could you expect butrhers termed the re-establishment of State stations i.n Townsville to sell beef at 56s. rt 100 lb. -an undertaking that cost this State of when they were paying 63s. for it~ 'rhe hon. ours something like £2,000,000-the people member for Townsville admitted that that should be forewarned against what the Labour was so. Party is introducing in this Chamber at Let me get back to the Bill itself. 1 f present. If this Bill tends to direct the one of the objects of the Bill is to tell the grazier as to what he should do with his grazier what he should do with his stoek stock then I believe we are getting away then we should oppose it, as I believe it will from the democratic rights of the peonle and be opposed on that score by hon. members pushing forward the Labour plank of on this side of the Chamber. However. Socialism that is gradually coming into our if the purpose of the Bill is only to provide midst. for the establishment of abattoirs additional We have heard during the earlier part of to those in the metropolitan area then, as I the debate the remarks of the hon. member said earlier in my speech, I am in favour of for Aubigny, who gave us some indication as it in principle but I am against the building to what was the position of the grazier. He of any new works at the present time. If said that the people who sell cattle should be the construction of new works will mean entitled to top-off their cattle and send them that large quantities of building material into the market in such condition as would will be withdrawn from other uses, such :1s enable them to get the very best price. Is the building of homes, I am against that there any hon. member on the Government idea. At the moment we need more houses, side who will state openly that he is opposed more hospitals, and more steel for use in to the graziers getting the best possible price primary production, rather than in the bni1rl for his stock~ ing of now meatworks for abattoir purposps. The hon. member for Aubigny gave an I am inclined to think that one of tltt' indication as to what would be the position chief purposes of the Bill is to permit of if some of the graziers were forced into the forcef'ul f!,cquiring of existing meat sending their stock to market when they works. If the proprietors of them are J•n·• weighed only 600 lb. pared to sell them to the Government there is nothing wrong with the idea but if they A good deal has been said about the are to be compulsorily acquired then we supply of poor cattle to the abattoirs, but how can ;-on possibly hope to get first-gmde shall he defeating the rights of the people beef if eatt1e are not marketed in prime if we allow that to he done. condition? '1'1w hon. member for Anhic:nv If new works aro to be built at the present outlined the proHent position, and that is a's time, large quantities of building materin 1 it should be. The grn7ier should be al1owPd will be needed, which today should be userl to top off his cattle and send them to market for the purposes of primary production. \Ye at his m..-n rliseretion, and he should not be want to see that every scrap of steel thn t di1·ected YYhen to send them. is produced at the present time goes i11to the building of homes and into the develop Mr. Collins: Suppose· the people starve ment of farms and grazing properties rathe1· in the meantime~ What then~ than into the establishment of new me:lt Mr. CHALK: There is no possibility of works, especially when there are reasonabl~· their starving in the meantime. Take the adequate facilities at the moment for suppl)· recent situation at Townsdlle which has ing meat to the public. already been explained by tl1e hon. member It is my firm belief that in my particular for Kennedy and the hon. member for Towns area the establishment of first-class sale yard, vine. We had the views also of the hon. would be preferred by the people of 'foo member for Mnndingburra, but I think that \Yoomba district to the immediate establish what he said was all '' boloney. '' Years ago ment of an abattoir. That is something I had the opportunity of travelling throul!h which should be given to the city of 'Too· the north-·westeru part of the State and woomba in prefercnee to the immediate set with the exeeption of the hon. member for ting up of an abattoir there. Abattoirs Acts [22 MARcH.] Amendment Bill. 2157 If this Bill is designed to take over exist cns1s, such as the occasion in Townsville, ing private meatworks and not to set up these men are prepared to withhold an essen new workS', if the owners of meat tial foodstuff from the people, purely on the works in Townsville or at Lake's Creek basis of the profit motive. We heard, for are willing to hand their works over to instance, the statement made by the hon. the Government then, as I have said prr,-i member for Aubigny, who said that the ously, we cannot condemn the Bill, but if profit motive was uppermost in his mind. I those works are to be taken over by force ask the hon. member for Aubigny, as a mem anfl the rights of the owners ignored, that ber of this Parliament and as a Queenslander: principle is wrong. \Ve have alrendy seen has he no obligation to this State~ something of the Queensland-British food project and know something of the machinery Mr. Sparkes: Of course he has. thnt has been diverted to it. If \l·e are to Mr. GRAHAM: The hon. member did not see some sueh set-up under a system of show it when he put the profit motive abov-e 'ocin lised abattoirs, it is entirely wrong and his obligation to this State. I believe that v.-c should be against it. We belieYe in the every man is worthy of his hire and I would Pstnblishment of abattoirs if thev :ae for not take away from the grazier the right to the purpose as laid clown in the" Bill, hut a fair and reasonable price for his product; if the Bill is to be used for implementing but in times of crisis, such as the occasion the plank of Socialism in the platform of iu Townsville when meat was reqnired, the the Labour Party, I for one am definitely opposed to it. pastoralists deliberately withheld stock from the public because they said they wanted a Mr. GRAHAM (Mackay) (12.32 p.m.): I higher price. join with other members of the Government party in supporting this measure. It is Mr. 8}larkes: Do you think that meat necessary. 'l'he time is overdue when abat should be taken from the grazier at below toirs should be established throug-hout the cost~ length and breadth of Queensland. The Brisbane abattoir is an indication of what Mr. GRAHA~I: I say that the power of their establishment would mean to other aeqnisition is quite justified. What would be parts of the State. the use of establishing abattoirs without the power of acquisition~ If the Government are It is rather amusing to find the Opposition to establish these abattoirs they must have today opposing this measure when the fact those powers because at some time in the is known that the Moore Government wNe future the graziers may act as they did iu responsible for the introduction of the abat Townsville and withhold cattle from the toir system in Queensland. What was right works. in their day is evidently wrong now. f the prices for meat are virtually getting out It is well known that loss is caused by the of hand, bue we have graziers coming here hauling of cattle over long distances. Every and opposing this measure because of its grazier will admit that when cattle are con acquisition powers. 'rhis Government are veyed long di!Jtances by train to Brisbane by quite justified in that respect. the time they have reached their destination Mr. Maher: We are getting back to the they have lost weight. cld State butcher shops again; I can see that- I know that the element of time will have to he considered, hut with the growth of the Jllr. GRAHAM: As the hon. member for l\uranda interjected this morning, although industry, the development of the State, and the State stations may have lost £1,500,000 the need for decentralisation we must look rlming the period they operated they were forward to the time when abattoirs will responsible by the same rule of saving the have to he erected throughout the State to treat the cattle produced in the various areas. ~onsumer millions because thereby the people were able to and did purchase first class Abattoirs serve another valuable purpose meat at a reasonable price. Consequently, if in that they provide central killing-works for there had been State stations today the people the Rlaughtering of cattle. In the Mackay would not be paying the exorbitant prices for district there are about 28 slaughterhouBes. meat they are paying. Instead of the hon. I~ very private butcher has his ow11 little member for Aubigny getting £21 or £23 for slaughteryard where he kills his own 10 or r·ows and calves, if there had been State 15 beasts a week, and became of the number stations we might have been able to give the of these slaughteryards it is virtually impos people cheap meat, as was done in the past. sible to have adequate inspection of the Any State enterprise is a very sore point with meat. In many instances people arc required Opposition members, but despite the fact that to eat meat that should be condemned. those enterprises may have been a failure in Abattoirs give proper facilities for thorough some respects, there will rome a day when we inspection of meat and with their establish· \\ill introduce them. mcnt the people certainly will get a better class of meat. Mr. iiiaher: You believe in State enter Mr. Sparkes: How do you account for prise~ the meat that was presented here the other Mr. GRAHAM: Of course. I am just day by the hon. member for Kelvin Grove? :1s good an advocate for Socialism ~url 8tat" rnterprises as members of the Opposition are Mr. GRAHAM: Many theories have been for capitalism. I have as much right to advanced about that meat, and from all expound my views on Socialism as members reports I should not like to eat it; but its or the Opposition have to expound their existence proves my point, that the produeer thc Mr. Barnes: Cancerous beasts can go to involved and have been prevented from the abattoir too. killing for local needs. That is being over come by this Bill. J[r. BURROWS: It is time that we got rid of some of the political cancers sitting If I was asked to advise how to get over opposite. The position is that when a grazier this difficulty, I perhaps would say that the rpfuses to sell cattle to feed people-- graziers could perhaps bribe the heads of the Labour Government with a couple of .Mr. Heading: He does not. What about pounds of fillet steak and the rank-and-file the time when the worker refuses to kill the with a couple of pounds of chuck steak. My cattle~ point is that it would be an impossibility to do that today because this Bill was in inaugu Mr. BURROWS: I intended to draw just rated by the Learned Elders of Zion. that analogy. When a labourer goes on strike It may seem to an ordinary person lwn. members opposite think that he should something that does not matter but it be gaoled, that he should be refused credit, is the most important piece of legislation that nothing is too bad for him. placed before this Chamber for some time. That is because it will be the stepping stone The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. to bringing about revolution in this country. n1ember is getting away from the subject As I explained over and over again, when matter before the Committee. the day of revolution comes the issue will not be Communism versus anti-Communism Mr. BURROWS: The whole position is but of the workers versus the bosses. That that hon. members opposite will not admit will be brought about by hungry bellies, just that what is good for the goose is good for the as a few months ago when the workers were gander. 'fhey want one law against the work on strike in various parts of Queensland as mg man. They argue that it is a sin for a a result of the meat strike. If that position working man to refuse to sell his labour but had been general there would have been if a grazier refuses to sell his cattle he is to revolution. That position was not general be regarded as a saint. That is the whole sum total of it. because local butchers did their own killing to supply the people with meat. 'fhe hon. member fo1· \Vide Bay questioned \rhether the grazier refused to sell his cattle. Unfortunately, meat forms a prominent part in our diet. The day ·will come when it Tf he does not refuse to sell them, then it will will not be, but that is by the way. Today not b~ necessary to implement that part of the Bill. Hon. members opposite need not be we largely depend on meat for our diet. If the meat industry is organised in such a ·way t·oncerne.d about any inequity in this very progressive measure, which every sane civilised as to have abattoirs in Timbuctoo and all person should support. other towns, which is the object, they might finally expand and come to Bundaberg. I hope they will not. We have not the country Mr. BARNES (Bundaberg) (2.15 p.m.): J rise to oppose this Bill. I do so for two there to support abattoirs, but if they do it particular reasons. One is that for which will be purely as a means of sabotaging pro the Opposition are opposing it-because it c!uction. The proper place for abattoirs will gives to the Government the right to take a be in the Upper Burnett, not Bundaberg. Jllan 's cattle as they think fit. But I oppose The object should be to save unnecessary H mainly because of its centralising power. transport. You will remember that as far back as 1942 1 I oppose the Bill because it has been told this Chamber of the means the Com handed down from Wall Street, New York, munists were going to use to bring about from the international Jewish banking revolution. That was, firstly, by major system. It has been handed directly. or strife, which would be accomplished by strikes indirectly to the Government to p~t mt~ in the coal, transport, and meat industries; operation. They have the one obJect of power. After the next elections, irrespec Centralised killing in the various centres tive of what you or I may say, the Tory will enable the inspection of meat to be Government will be in power in the Federal carried out much more efficiently, and, in Parliament. A Canadian Tory Government spite of the fact that the letter of the law are putting this Bill through in Canada also. provides for inspection of meat, irrespective The same applies to South Africa. The of where the slaughter-yards are situated, Tory parties here are opposing it. They irrespective of whether the stock are killed are getting directions from none other than in public abattoirs or private slaughter-yards, the Learned Elders of Zion. we must admit that frequently inspection does This Bill has the object of stabilising the not take place at the private yards. Fur·ther meat industry, whereby when there is a big more, centralised killing will make for greatm· strike all the abattoirs will eome out on efficiency. The present system of killing in strike and not only just a few in one abat private slaughter-yards produces a vast toir or a baeon factory. That is the sole amount of waste of very valuable by-products purpose behind the Bill. I have made many in the meat industry. There is a vast amount statements and I have said that if I was of wnste material that can be used for wrong I would resign. I have made the state fertiliser and this is obviously an advantage ment on numerous occasions that I will resign in the development of this State. But, if I am wrong. I repeat it now: if what I although I support the Bill, I take this oppor am saying is proved ineorreet in two years' tunity of pointing out that there are serious time I will resign and the Government will defects connected with the abattoir in Dris not have to spend thousands of pounds to get bane, and I urge the Government to take me out. I have forecast everything of great steps to eliminate these defects immediately importance that has happened throughout the and to prevent them being repeated in the world during recent years. Hon. gentlemen abattoirs to be established in other parts of opposite sit there and take £20 a week the State. because they are ''Yes'' men. They have not I refer particularly to the system of buy the foresight to see what is behind it, and ing and selling of stoek and the buying and even if they had the foresight they would selling of meat. Under the present system he helpless to do anything about it because there are saleyards attached to the Bris bane abattoir. These saleyards are, in effect, if they did the Q.C.E. would not endorse controlled by the big mercantile or pastoral them at the next election and they would and stoek companies sueh as Dalgety Ltd. cease to be a member of the Government and Moreheads. 'vVhen the sales take place, getting £20 a week for doing nothing, and the cattle are purchased at auction. 'l'hey are they could not go back to the A.W.U. jobs. not purchased on the basis of definite weights That is why they support the Bill. The Tories or definite grades. They are purchased at oppose it only because it allows the Govern auction, and the cattle are bought on the ment to take the bullocks out of the pad hoof. This leads to serious abuses and these docks of their friends-which I am opposed are really the source of much of the trouble to. The main reason I oppose it is because today in connection with the supply of of its centralisation power, the eurse of the inferior beef to the public of Queensland. whole world, started by none others than the At the present time, under the abattoir IJearned Elders of Zion and put into opera system, meat is graded into three grades, tion by the "Yes" men of Parliament. first, second, and third grades. The first Mr. PATERSON (Bowen) (2.23 p.m.): I grade is branded with a green brand, the support this Bill because I believe the second with a brown brand, and the third Government are doing the right thing in grade, I understand, is unbranded. It is extending the system of abattoirs outside the obvious that, at the present time, when export metropolitan area. I should like to see public prices are high, export companies, such as raid-storage plants established in eonneetion Swifts, Q.M.E., &e., will pay a very high with the abattoirs in the various districts priee to obtain good quality meat for export. where they are to be established so that Any person who knows anything about the there can be placed in cold storage, not only meat industry knows that it is only the first meat, but other perishable products such as grade meat that these companies are con fruit, eggs, fish, and so on. There is great cerned with. The result is that there tends scope for such a development and I hope it to develop a system of prices based solely on will not be long before the Government the first-grade or the export price. That extend it to the preservation of other perish means that the local price tends to rise; able products. it is forced up because unless the local pur M:r. Macdonald: Central cold storage. chaser, the retail butcher, is prepared to pay these higher prices he is unable to obtain Mr. PATERSON: No, decentralised cold supplies. The result is he pays the higher storage in the different parts of the State. price and has to pass that priee on to the I support the extension of the principle of consumer and the higher price becomes estab· abattoirs because I believe central killing is lished in the local market. not only the most efficient but the most That would not be so bad if the local hygienic. It seems a tragedy that we have consumer got first-grade beef, but, unfortu had to wait so long for sueh a measure to be nately, he does not. Not only do we have introduced. Anybody who has had any the illustration given by the hon. member for experience of the separate killing yards in Kelvin Grove the other day, but we have our the country will agree when I state that it own experience-the experience, I suppose of is more unhygienic and more uneconomic than the great majority of the people of Australia the abattoir system. today. The quality of beef that the average 1949-4A 2162 Abattoirs Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill. Australian gets is not of first-grade and that pay for them on the basis of grade and is true not only of Brisbane but of the weight. This means that the present sale country centres. I must, however, add this: yards system of sale at auction must be on my experience the quality of meat sold abolished. in the country centres is on the whole better But we haVe to remember that e~en though than the quality of beef bought from Bris this problem is solved, it solves only the bane butchers. I believe the explanation of problem of wholesale sales. It does not soh~e that is that all the Brisbane beef has to be the problem of retail selling or retail distri bought at the abattoir, that is, all Bris bution, and this is very important. Now bane beef sold on the local market has to that this Bill is being discussed, the Govern be bought under this iniquitous present ment should tackle the problem of retail mcnt system of buying and selling which, as I rleliverics. Meat deliveries do not exist in have mentioned, tends to force the loc·al manv towns of Queensland today. Prior to retail butcher to pay the export price although the {·car meat distribution by retailers was tl1c> he very seldom gets first-grade beef. eommonly accepted practice, but nowaday~. Mr. Aikens: The· exporter sets the higher now that the war is over, and even though it price. has been over for nearly four years, we still have many towns in Queensland wher: the Mr. PATERSON: Yes. people have to go for their meat. lir. Wanstall: You always have that .liir. Ailiens: And queue up for it. where you have standardisation. liir. PATERSON: I understand that is so, ~Ir. PATERSON: Not where there is particularly in Townsville. This Government standardisation but because there is not have introduced laws to compel bakers to standardisation. That is the trouble. Com deliver bread, and I believe it is time a law pare the meat industrv with the sugar was introduced to compel butchers to deliver or butter industry. • meat. Sugar is bought at so much a pound. That Within the last 12 months I have receive Mr. PATERSON: I bow to your ruling. the means of preventing losses in Queensland. When the abattoir system was established, it I refer particularly to the tinner trade and was said that there would be a more con the paddy-calf trade. These tra~es were tinuous system of killing and that employ established and put on a firm basrs; losses ment would be more continuous. In other through old stock ltave been eliminated. words, it was said that there would be continuity of employment for employees and I remember the time when thousands of the workers at the abattoir were paid a paddy calves were killed on the farms-it lower rate of wages than those employed was a problem to get rid of them. That does in the export works. The amount these not happen today. They have their value at workers are paid is 11 per cent. less than that the abattoir. How then can anyone say that paid to the workers in the meat export trade. I or my party is opposed to the Bill~ Yet the abattoir produces twice as much for A moment ago the Minister said, by way export as it does for the local market, and of interjection, that the Labour Party were as a result large numbers of abattoir workers opposed to only certain phases of the prin are not engaged in full-time employment. cipal Act when it was introduced by the The continuity of work has not been main Moore Government. I find myself in a tained for a large section of the abattoir similar position today in regard to this employees and yet they are paid a rate of measure. I want to give the Government all wages based on continuity of employment. the credit in the world-if that will help The 11 per cent. cut in wages should be for proposing to establish abattoirs in other abolished and there should be a fixed parts of the State so long as they are con wage rate for all employees, namely, the rate ducted on an economic basis. That has paid to workers in export works. always been our policy ever since the estab lishment of the abattoir in Brisbane. I am The CHAIRlUAN: Order! The hon. very much in favour of the idea and I can member is getting away from the matter before the Committee. not understand why the Labour Govern:n~nt should have waited so long before decrdmg to extend the system to other parts of the Mr. PATERSON: If these weaknesses arc eliminated I believe that a system of State. It is 20 years since the abattoir was abattoirs can serve the public of Queensland established in Brisbane and there is no well. I am not afraid of the bogy of reason why abattoirs should not be built_ at centralisation that was raised by some hon. large cities like Rockhampton and Townsv1lle. members because today it is obvious that I am not criticising the Government but centralisation is developing whether we like simply pointing out that meat,. more. than it or not. It is only a question of centralised most other primary products, 1s senously control in the interests of private enterprise affected by changes of temperature and that and profit or centralised control in the there is every reason why it should be kept interests of the people to satisfy their needs. wholesome from the time it is slaughtered Whether we like it or not we shall have until it reaches the consumer's table. I am centralisation. The development of trusts glad that at long last the Gov:rnment have :md combines is inevitable, so long as this decided to extend the abattmr system to social system lasts. If we have the meat other parts of Queensland. industry run by a centralised monopoly for But I am opposed to the part of the l!ill the public, it is under the control of the that gives the Government power to acqmre Government which is elected by the people, the other fellow's property, allegedly for the and can be tossed out by the people when common good. If the property is to be ever they like. Of the two choices I prefer acquired at fair market value I should have centralised control by the Government, no objection to it but past. expe~i~nce of_ the ],ecause the public can exercise control over Government's practice of acqmrmg thmgs the Government. The bogy of centralisation suggests at once that they have no_ hesitation does not weigh with me at all. I support the in taking property at less than 1ts market Bill and urge the Minister to give serious value. That is why I am opposed to the consideration to the recommendations I have action of the Government in taking that made during my speech. power under the measure. The abatt_oi_r in Mr. PLUNKETT (Albert) (2.38 p.m.): I Brisbane has been a success, as the Mrmster cannot let an important matter like this go admits and as everyone agrees, but the bo3;rd by without speaking on it, especially as this that operates it has no power to acqmre Bill is based on the success of the abattoir stock. It does not need it because it con at Cannon Hill. I listened to the Minister's ducts its business on sound lines. I strongly remarks and I read his speech and I think object to the proposal of the Government to he has given a rather good review of the go in for the socialising of the other fellow's whole of the provisions in regard to that property and at the ~ame tim_e fail to give abattoir. Although it is pleasing to see that him a reasonable pnce for 1t. Once you many hon. members have been converted to attempt to acquire anyone's property you the idea, I was in this Chamber when the get away from the idea of paying the market original Bill went through and I know that value for it. a number of the Labour Party were However the Government are wise in decid strenuously opposed to it. ing to ext~nd the abattoir system to other Mr. Collins: Certain aspects of it only. parts of the State but I cannot agree with quite a number of people who argue that Mr. PLUNKE'I.'T: I agree that the system they should be established where the stock has been a wonderful success, as it has been are grown. They should be built where the 2164 Abattoirs Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill. product is consumed or exported. There is realise on it and thought that the wool was no use in killing cattle in the Northern of some value. Was it not better for that 1'erritory if you cannot transport it down wool to be saved than ''run it down the here economically to be consumed. There drain?'' It was said that the butcher would fore, I hope that the Government are not not sell that meat as lamb to his customers. going to establish abattoirs here, there and Why did the butcher buy it? everywhere. The economic aspect of the problem must be considered. I am heartened llfr. CoHins: That is the point. to know that we have made great strides in 1Ir. Sparkes: The hon. member for the quick transport of cattle today. I ven Kelvin Grove advocated buying on the hoof. ture to say that improved conditions of rail lllr. Turner: No, I did not. and road transport will enable us in the near future to move cattle from far-distant areas Jir. PLUNKETT: Such statements cre-ate successfully. We all know that with a wrong impression. It is a pity somebody improved transport cattle could be trans did not come in with a hind-quarter o1· a ported from distant points quickly, travelling fore-quarter of good lamb to show what we at night as well as in the cool parts of the cnn produce in Queensland. We do not do clay. When this is done there will be no tlwt. We do not take credit for what we occasion to establish abattoirs where the can produce but some people are ready to cattle are grown, as it will be much cheaper belittle our capacity. to transport them to where the consuming JUr. Jesson: You are the greatest population and shipping are. I hope that the knockers in Australia over there. Government will not embark on extension of the abattoir system all over Queensland, for Mr. PLUNKETT: I should like to knock if that is done it will not be a paying the hon. member for a start. (Laughter.) enterprise. I was rather surprised at the things that The CHAIR}IAN: Order! The hon. have been said about graziers in the course member must not engage in fisticuffs. of the debate. If there is one section of the community that is doing a good job by living llir. PLUNKETT: He started it. in isolated parts and subjecting themselves I do not like the part of the Bill in regard to the risks of floods, droughts and pests, to acquisition, which indicates that the it is the graziers. It is astounding to me Government are prepared to start on the same that a man living and producing under such socialistic schemes that they put into opera adverse conditions should be accused in this tion years ago. The Premier has indicated Chamber of selling diseased cattle and that the Government are prepared to obtain accepting rake-offs. If we want people to go 500,000 acres of land for the Queensland out into our sparsely-populated districts to British Food Corporation and while there produce meat for food, we should not say may be 50,000 or 100,000 available for the nasty things about them, as we have heard production of sorghum much of the land will them said in this debate. There is no justifi need to be grazed and the Government will cation for these aspersions. have to put cattle on it. I was wondering I was very hurt today to hear the hon. whether they were taking power unde1· the member for Port Curtis, who by the way Bill to erect an abattoir at Capella to kill represents many graziers, make the stat~ the pigs they will grow there after a while. ment that graziers sell diseased meat. I Then we shall have not only the socialisation want to draw attention to the fact that we of production, but of manufacture as well. have laws on the statute book protecting people against eating diseased meat. That The CHAIRl\IAN: Order! The hon. is why we have appointed inspectors to super member is getting beyond the scope of the vise all stock that are killed for human con matter before the Committee. sumption. That is why, if I killed a beast at the abattoir that was classified as a fat Mr. PLUNKETT: I was wondering bullock, and an inspector condemned the whether there is any significance in the fact carcass, I should not get one penny for it. that the introduction of the Dill svnchronises Under such conditions it is unfair to accuse with the efforts to get this 500,000 acres of me of selling diseased meat. The statement land. Is the object of the Bill to give the is a fact. The other day we had an example Government power to do something that they of what was supposed to be lamb brought have not the power to do now? into this Chamber. Another question we must take into ron Mr. Clark: The man who sent it in sideration is the grazing business. We live should be in gaol. in a country that is subject to long droughts and heavy floods, such as the flood we experi Mr. PLUNKETT: It is quite e-asy to say enced this season. The success of an abattoir such a thing. Why did the owner send that lies largely in the continuity of supplies. lamb in~ Did he send it in to the saleyards Where droughts exist a shortage occurs such because it was diseased~ He probably knew as the shortage at Townsville. During the that it had to pass the slaughtering inspec last two or three years they have expori tor. It did evidently pass the inspection enced severe droughts in that area and the because after it was slaughtered it was reason for the shortage was that butchers branded ''Lamb. '' There may be a dozen could not buy the cattle at their value-the reasons why that owner sent the lamb into export value, if you like-and you could not the saleyards. Probably he wanted to expect the graziers to sell at a price that Abattoirs Acts [22 MARCH.] Amendment Bill. 2165 would enable them :to sell :meat to the the Opposition and those from the Goveru butchers at 56s. when they were offered 63s. ment and noted what appeared to be para After all is said and done, there is a risk in doxical opinions. It has been said by the all these things. Opposition that no restriction shall be placetl Our efforts should be directed to remedy upon the particular producer of a certain ing the evils that exist. If we do that we may commodity. But markedly against this is get somewhere. The bringing-in of a Bill the general acceptance by the Opposition creating puwer to do certain things because of the principle that there shall be a limit to something is happening is not the solution of the profit so far as those who work in m1y the difficulty. particular industry are concerned. Why set a line of demarcation between the profits of Although I agree with the construction of those who are employed in an industry and abattoirs in the larger cities, for goodness those who are the producors in industry~ I sake get away from the idea of building an should appreciate an answer to that from abattoir for, say, every 4,000 people. In my those who oppose this Bill. opinion that number is not sufficient to war ltir. Pie: The producers in industry get rant an abattoir. Moreover, abattoirs cannot a profit. be operated with success unless they make meat available for export. I am driven to lUr. DA VIS: The hon. member for this conclusion beca,use Queensland is an Windsor has accepted an industrial line exporting State. Auattoirs involve the pro between the employer and the onE; who is no vision of huge cold stores and the cold stor loss a producer than the ov.·ner of the pro age must be sufficient to provide for the perty. He has accepted the wages that the holding of a number of animals and this Industrial Court says the worker shall accept, naturally means that some must be exported. yet he objects strongly to what we have been Abattoirs must be economic. receiving from industry. And I would point out that we shall not Mr. Pie: No, we belie·ve in sharing the always have the high prices that now rule profit. on the overseas market. We must make pro vision today for the conditions of ten years Illr. DAVIS: The hon. member does not hence when the price of meat may have believe in that. The whole tendency that declined. The greater the decline, the more he has exhibited during this discussion economic our industry must be, in order that refutes that statement. our produce can compete on the overseas :i\Ir. Pie: We do it. We carry it out. market. Great c: Mr. Pie: At least you are honest about Mr. Pie: I did not. I thought it was it. disgusting. Mr. DAVIS: Yes, but let hon. members Mr. DAVIS: Do the members of the in the Chamber visualise this position: in the Queensland People's Party represent the carrying-over of profits from one tax year to best interests of those who send them here~ another-and this cannot be denied-there have been colossal losses to the State and to Mr. Pie: We do. the quantity of food for Britain owing to the Mr. DAVIS: Then how could the hon. fact that the goddess of drought, which con· member enter into merriment on the disclos trois the destiny of production in the pas ure of something that stands to the everlast ,toral industry, has intervened. I would ing credit of the retailer, who came to the endeavour to carry into the next financial conclusion that he could not sell that meat year some of the profits that have accrued in to the public of Brisbane~ The hon. member a particular year were I given the oppor for Windsor entered into the merriment of the tunity, but in the pastoral industry droughts situation. The hon. member for Kelvin have intervened and there have been a loss Grove deserves all credit for exhibiting that to the State and a diminution in the quantity piece of meat. of exports to Great Britain. Not only has that occurred, but I will show hon. members The Bill is one on which all hon. members what else has actually occurred. In the could be in complete accord because it gives holding over of fat stock that were available effect to the practical principle of the estab to the market and should have gone to the lishment of abattoirs in different parts of the market, "ith the intervention of drought there State, but hon. members opposite appear to has been not only a loss of fat stock but a fear that it will prevent them from obtaining loss of holding area whereon to maintain a reasonable net return for their products. breeding stock. Mr. Sparkes: Do you believe that a :Mr. Pie: You must blame the economic man should be forced to sell a beast at system for that. 600 lb. vvhen he could bring it up to 900 lb.? J1r. nAVIS: I will give the hon. member llir. DA VIS: No. That is not the inten n n illustration. Has an employee who works tion of the measure at all. for Bruce Pie Industries the opportunity of llir. Sparkes: Acquisition. diverting his taxation from this year to the next~ Almost every time the hon. member :!}Ir. DAVIS: The hon. member knows speaks from the Opposition benches he asks that this is only an extremity measure. Does why people do not work overtime in industry the hon. member for Aubigny, as a producer, to meet the needs of production. I believe mean to tell the Chamber that he, after him to be fair and reasonable but I ask: is passing through a period of drought and there an opportunity for the man who works coming into a period of feed in abundance, overtime in industry to place his overtime would be prevented by the Government from earnings in the n~xt taxable year~ holding stock weighing between 400 and 500 lb. with the object of developing bloom Mr. Pie: Overtime earnings should be free of tax. on them so as to bring them to 650 lb.~ Is the hon. member for Aubigny going to The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. tell us that he honestly believes that the Devries): Order! I suggest that the hon. Government intend under this measure to member get back to the terms of the Bill. deny him the right to place on that beast within a period of six weeks another 200 lb. Mr. DAVIS: I am speaking on the general application of the Bill. of beeH It is not the intention of the Government to destroy the increased pro Mr. Pie: It is a very good speech. duction of beef. Jir. DAVIS: All credit to the hon. mem I listened very attentively to the whole of ber for Kelvin Grove for the exhibit that this discussion. I believe that there is not he brought into this Chamber the other day. one hon. member, with the possible excep I wonder how long the hon. member for tion of those who represent Queen Street Aubigny would be able to hold his employees I will give that credit to those who produce if he hung similar meat in the meat·house because they know their job of business on his property~ All credit to the hon. mem who would be able to discern when having ber for Kelvin Grove, but to my, shall I say, dinner at a Queen Street restaurant whether amazement, it created a certain amount of the meat they were eating came off a beast merriment in the Chamber. Can you under fattened on the Cooper or part of one of the Btand why there should be any merriment most starved kangaroos in one of our worst over the exhibiting in this Chamber of some· drought-stricken areas. In fact, they could thing that was unfit to be purveyed to the not tell in any butcher shop what was steak Brisbane public, such as we saw here the and what was roast. They have merely other day~ endeavoured to discredit the Government in Mr. Pie: The law allows that to be this discussion. That is a thing I take ex put out to the. public. ception to. I always give members of the Opposition my appreciation when ~hey speak Mr. DA VIS: I am fairly observant, and on something they know somethm~ about, the .hon. member for Windsor was certainly but I am damned if I can appreciate the one who entered into the hilarity. remarks of those who know nothing about Abattoi1·s Acts [22 MARCH.] Amendment Bill. 2167 production and whose only knowledge of beef Mr. NICKLIN: I quote the Minister's is that acquired in munching it with their words ''the larger centres outside Br.isbane.'' molars. Those were the words. If the abatto1r system of this State is to be the success it should ltir. NICKLIN (Murrumba-Leader of the be, if it is to be given all help that we can Opposition) (3.17 p.m.): From the long give, we should not concentrate on the larger debate that has resulted from the introduc centres of the State but we should have tion of this Bill three surprising features country killing centres established in Queens emerge. The first is the remarkable political land to deal particularly with the interstate somersault of the Minister and hon. members trade so that we could handle a large pro sitting behind him that we see when we portion of the cattle that me at prese_nt compare the attitude they took on the intro walking over the border and are handled by duction of the abattoir system with the fact country killing facilities established in New that today they are introducing this Bill to South Wales. Apparently, like all actions extend it and using as their main argument of the Government, it indicates that they are the success that has followed the establish not cencetned about the distant parts of the ment of the abattoir at Cannon Hill. State, but, as the Minister said, with the 8econdly, we have the damning indictment of larger centres outside Brisbane. It is n the abattoir system by the hon. member for wonder they should have concerned them Kelvin Grove 'the other day and, thirdly, we selves with those. have the marked reticence of the Minister on the fact that this Bill contains acquisition Mr. COLLINS: I rise to a point of order. powers compared with the chuckles of glee The hon. gentleman is entirely misquoting that came from the back benches that the me. I did not say that the Bill could apply fact will give effect to No. 1 plank of the only to more populous centres of the State. Labour Party, namely, the socialisation of all I said that it could apply to any part of means of production and exchange. Queensland where it was desirable to apply it. Let us look at those three features one by ltlr. NICKLIN: I accept the· hon. gentle one. When the Bill to establish the abattoir man's explanation. I read his remarks. at Cannon Hill was introduced in 1931 hon. members opposite could not find one single ltlr. Collins: I have read my remarks. feature in the measure that possessed any Mr. NICKLIN: The hon. gentleman was virtue. They condemned it up hill and down reported as saying that its purpose was con dale. They said that the abattoir should be fined to the larger centres outside Brisbane. eontrolled by the Brisbane City Couneil, that I am glad he has given consideration to the the price paid was excessive, and by innuendo claims of other parts also; after all, they then and at the following election con deserve some consideration, and more than demned the then government. It has been ordinary c-onsideration, because they have proved that the establishment of that been neglected so much by the present abattoir has been one of the best things that Government. have happened to this State. Let me move to the second point I made Everything that hon. members opposite the damning indictment of the abattoir by said about the Bill at that time has been the hon. member for Kelvin Grove the ot~er proved wrong. Now they have eaten their day. That is the only way one can descnbe own words and they introduce a Bill to provide his action the other day in displaying to an for the extension of abattoir facilities in this and sundry that emaciated bit of so-cal!ed State. As far as that part of the Bill is mutton which he produced and which concerned, we are 100 per cent. behind it a11egedly was branded with the brand of the because it is our policy and it has. been o~r abattoir showing that it passed throng~ that policy all the time. What we obJeCt to IS institution and had been approved by It for the rotten acquisition powers included in it, sale to the public. One point made . by the which we assert are entirely unnecessary for Minister was the fact that the pubhc were the success of the abattoirs. now going to be protecte.d in regard to the lUr. CoHins: In that case they will not quality of the. ~eat s~pphe~ to them, yet .we be used. have the cond1hon eXIstmg m the only eXIst ing abattoir by which that type of meat Mr. NICKLIN: There is no doubt the which was not fit for dog's meat-could be establishment of the Brisbane abattoir has sold in a butcher shop branded with the brand been one of the most progressive moves ever of the abattoir. made in this State as far as the cattle It was passed by it as fit for h;:tman con industry is concerned. In view of the remark sumption. The~e must be. sorr;ethmij wrong able success of the original abattoir and the with the abatto1r system If thmgs hke that reports furnished from time to time by can happen. I have never heard a more various commissions, it is surprising that this damning indictment of the whole of the move of the Government to extend the abattoir system than the speech of the hon. abattoir system was not taken a long time member the other day. I am sure it m~st ago. have made the Minister feel rather dis It is very noticeable that the Minister in turbed in regard to what will happen in his introductory remarks stated that this Bill respect of the supply of meat to the people was for the purpose of extending the abattoir of Queensland. system to the more populous centres of the I think all hon. members will agree that State. the main purpose for the establishment of. the Mr. Collins: Throughout the State. Hbattoir was, first of all, that by centralised 2168 Abattoirs Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill. killing costs would be reduced, and secondly, The excuse for the insertion of this acqui that the meat would come under inspection so sition power into this measure was the unfor that nothing undesirable or damaging to tunate situation that developed at Townsville. public health would go into consumption. The Minister knows quite well why there was But we find that such a thing can happen, a shortage of meat in tne Townsville area. as happened last week; the hon. member for The reason was the fact that the usual Kelvin Grove was able to display that shoul cattle-supplying areas of Townsville were in (ler or fore-quarter of lamb br~tnded with the the throes of one of the worst droughts in abattoir brand as being suitable for con their history; consequently, there were hardly sumption by the people of Brisbane. any cattle fit to market. If a situation like I hope the Minister will make the fullest that develops in some part of Queensland inquiry into the origin of that so-called lamb with any other product, do we introduce Bills and why it was passed by the abattoir and with power to acquire~ We do not. We go allowed to go into consumption. This Com about the matter in a common-sense way and mittee is entitled to an explanation from get supplies from parts where they are avail the Minister. It is something that should able. The Government eventually did that in this instance by getting frozen and other not happen and should not be allowed in meat at Lake's Creek and other places where :my well-conducted abattoir system, one of there were cattle. the primary reasons for which is to protect the public. Let us examine the position to see whether I now come to the other point, that of the there is any nee cl for this power of acquisi method used by the Minister when he intro tion in a Bill of this kind. The abattoir at ((uced this Bill when dealing with the matter Cannon Hill has operated very successfully of acquisition. At the tail end of his speech up to the present without any power of acqui be mentioned in an off-hand sort of way that sition. It has not needed any such power there was to be power to acquire cattle on because, if there was any shortage of cattle the hoof. I interjected and asked him to keep the works going, the buyers who made whether the acquisition powers applied only use of the facility would go out into the to cattle, and it is very significant that the countryside, buy cattle and bring them here. J\linister did not answer that interjection. That is what any other abattoir in the State could and would clo in normal circumstances. We now know why. During the course of Of course, that doe0 not fit in with Govern this debate hon. members on the Government ment policy. They do not want normal condi benches stood one after the other and stated tions in operation to apply; they want to how much they welcomed this power of sneak into their legislation at every oppor ncquisition, which was putting into operation tunity the socialistic wedge and socialistic the Socialist policy of the Government. One powers. That is the reason why we have hon. member said he would be pleased to go this unnecessary drastic power of acquisi to his electorate and say that at last the tion included in this measure. Government were starting to implement their socialistic policy. That is different from the I venture the opinion that if the Govern nttitude adopted by Ministers who have ment had followed the recommendations of some sense of responsibility. They wish to the Royal Commissions that have been estab soft-pedal this particular plank of Labour's lished from time to time and established at policy of socialisation. The Minister when the various points that have been mentioned introducing this Bill was hoping that this in those reports an abattoir controlled by the drastic, unnecessary power to acquire cattle Queensland Meat Industry Board or an and other things would not be noticed and abattoir purely for local purposes controlled the Bill would get past this stagP. Unfortu by the local authorities, and establish them nately, he did not drill members behind him, in the same way as the abattoir at Cannon because one after the other they rose and Hill-on a competitive and business basis absolutely chortled with joy that at last the there would not have been any need whatso- , socialisation plank of the Labour Party was ever for any power of acquisition. to be put into operation. With a consider· In summing up the introductory debate on able amount of justification we can look with this Bill, I would say that it is remarkable a great deal of suspicion at the powers that for the fact that the Government have turned we shall find in this Bill when it is intro a political somersault in their attitude to i!uced. I think that in addition to the power abattoirs. There has been a remarkable con to acquire cattle on the hoof there will be demnation of the abattoir system by hon. found the power to acquire meatworks and members opposite, and there has been a big other things as well. difference of opinion amongst hon. members Mr. Jesson: What is wrong with the opposite as to exactly what effect the acquisi acquisition of sugar~ tion powers in this Bill will have on the legislation. I venture to say that it is not Mr. NICKLIN: Let me ask the hon. mem going to be the simple little acquisition power ber what is wrong with the Sugar Acquisition that the Minister tried to lead us to believe Act. If hon. members opposite wanted to it would be, but that it will be the all-embrac put .the power of acquisition into operation I ing drastic power of acquisition that hon. remmd them that they have this power now members opposite like so much and want to but ~h~y are not content with having the see in our legislation whenever they can. overndmg power they have in existing legis lation; they want to include the power of ltlr. SlUITH (Carpentaria) (3.35 p.m.): I acquisition in every piece of legislation they have listened attentively to this important introduce and that is one of the reasons why debate concerning the beef industry, an we have it here. industry of vital importance to the people of Ab!Ntoirs Acts [22 MARCH.) Amendment Bill. 2169 the Commonwealth and in our export trade I represent the cattle industry of the State to other countries in the world. I commend and the men who work on the properties. I the Minister and Cabinet for bringing down know exactly what is required for the State, this Bill to provide for an abattoir system, and I am trying to inject some sense into but I believe that a scheme has been delayed the debate. I have listened to the wild, too long in the matter of the reorganisation exaggerated and foolish statements made by of the cattle industry in this State. I sup hon. members opposite. I have sat here pose no hon. member of this Chamber repre anxiously waiting for some sensible sugges sents a greater proportion of the cattle tion. There is not much use in talking about industry than I do as the representative of the price of a bullock or the building or the electorate of Carpentaria. I disagree buying of abattoirs until we do something to entirely with many statements made in this rehabilitate the cattle industry of the State Chamber, and with the wild assertions made so as to have sufficient beef to feed the _people by the hon. member for Mundingburra, that of Queensland and the Commonwealth and cattle men, small and large, in the north supply any surplus we may have to Great west part of this State, because a better Britain. When we do that, the rest will come. price than they were getting was refused to Nothing has riled me more than for the them, preferred letting their cattle die on national Government to waste so much money the billabongs to sending them to market. on the Snowy River scheme for war purposes. Why not spend it in this State on water con The only dead cattle I saw "·ere those servation to provide food for our people~ that died through the ravages of drought. Why not first spend, say, £80,000,000 to In my travels over the Gulf and northern part £100,000,000 to provide food for the people~ of the State I know of no cattle man, large That would be better than building a muni or small, who has wilfully allowed his stock tion factory for war purposes. Let us have to die on his property for any such reason production for the people. Feed them first. as stated in this Chamber during the debate. If you feed them you make them healthy and I disagree with those statements entirely, they will be in a proper state to resist any and I repeat that the only dead stock I saw aggressor against this country. First and on cattle properties were those that died foremost we must produce food for the people. because of drought. I hope that the recent rains will relieve the cattle men in the north We look to the northern and western parts ern parts of the State, and I say also that of the State for our stores and fat cattle and it is time that not only this Government but we look to the Northern Territory for them the Commonwealth Government did something too. Until a few days ago Brunette Downs, to reorganise and bring the cattle industry up Alexandria and Avon Downs, the whole to the point of production at which we could of the Barkly Tablelands, were in the feed not only the people of this Common throes of a very severe drought. It wealth but others in the world. was only last Friday or Saturday that these station properties ceased pumping In 1943, 1944, 1945 and again in 1946 the water to give their cattle a drink. man-power authorities indiscriminately called We get large numbers of cattle from these men from the rattle properties of the State properties. Indeed, country in the Gulf area and put them into the C.C.C. and other round Cloncurry, Richmond and north of the organisations. I took the matter up with Flinders River, one of the cattle-producing Senator Collings, who was in charge of the areas of the State, is still in the throes of the Department of the Interior, and I was told severe drought. It is all very well to speak of by letter and by word of mouth that tlw two or three inches of rain in certain parts cuttle industry was a non-essential industry of that district, but these storms are only in this Commonwealth. That is the reason relief rains. A fortnight last Saturday after why we are suffering from a shortage of noon I was speaking to a couple of men from stock today. Cloncurry who told me that if they did not To speak perfectly plainly, you do not put get their usual 12, 14 or 16 inches of rain by a bull and a cow in a paddock and produce the end of this month they would have no a fat bullock tomorrow. It takes at least stock to send to the meatworks, the abattoirs four years to produce a fat bullock ready or the butchers. The cattle are required to feed for the market. And to do that you must the people. have sufficient man-power on the property These things should be said in this Chamber to look after the stock. As you cultivate so that we may know the position in the beef sugar and wheat, so you cultivate stock on producing areas of the State I represent. I your property, to have it ready for use. I meet these cattle-buyers from time to time say again that that is why we are suffering and I know the position. from a shortage today. I have known the I endeavoured to enlighten the hon. member man-power authorities to call men up from for Mundingburra by way of interjection station properties into the C.C.C. and force when he was speaking about the butchers in old men of 60 and 70 years to go back onto Townsville. He referred to the shortage of station properties and muster cattle so that beef in that city. The shortage of beef in we might have sufficient beef to send to Townsville is one of the biggest political meatworks and local butchers and feed our armies overseas. rackets ever put over in this State. I told the hon. member for Mundingburra by inter Mr. Muller: You should be over here. jection where the butchers of Townsville wuld get sufficient fat bullocks to give the :;\lr, SMITH: I am reasonable and people of Townsville a reasonable supply of sensible at all times. beef. That interjection was received with a 2170 Abattoirs Acts [ASSElVIBLY.] Amendment Bill. tirade of abuse from the hon. member. He the cattle,industry of the North and far attacked me. ·The hon. member professes to North-West and I do not know of a single be one who wants to help the people of instance at the present time, or indeed for Townsville. I was prepared to help him many years back, in which cheap white labour help the people of ·Townsville but he said or black labour was used on any station pro that I was in and out of Townsville like a perty. The day of the cheap white labour onowdrop. I am in and out of Townsville, or cheap black labour on sta.tion _properties aud, not knowing exactly what the hon. in our cattle and sheep areas d1sappeared member for Mundingburra meant by his with the advent of the Australian Workers' reference to a s1iowdrop, I leave it at that. Union, by which today the industrial side of I do not represent Townsville or any other our pastoral production is C8ntrolled. That part o:f the State on the coast. I represent organisation has in the period of its existence the Ca:rpentaria electorate, but if I can help improved the living conditions in the sheep any other hon. member who wants to help the and cattle industry to such an extent that people in his electorate by suggesting wherP everyone is proud of it. That improvement certain commodities can be got to feed them, has been achieved since the existence of and ab a reasonable and sensible man I am always because of the work of the Australian wilJ.ing to proffer that help. I leave the Workers' Union in those areas. n~atter there. The aboriginal labourer employed on pas It is not becoming of the hon. member for toral properties is controlled by the Govern Mundingburra to indulge in such a tirade of ment and an aboriginal employee gets the abuse. I made a reasonable interjection when same award conditions as is laid down in the I said that the shortage of beef in Towns Australian Workers' Union award for white ville was one of the biggest political rackets labour. Part of the wage goes to the abori put over the people. Why~ The butchers of ginal himself and the remainder to the Pro C'harters Towers, Ayr, Cardwell, Ingham, tector of Aboriginals who banks it for him Cairns, Cloncurry, Hughenden and Richmond until he wants a holiday or to go on a were able to get bullocks to feed the people walkabout. There is no more cunning em in those places. Why could not the butchers ployee in the pastoral industry than the of Townsville go out into the country and aboriginal. get bullocks in the same way~ I saw the butchers of Mt. Isa conveying bullocks by Only recently I heard a drover in Dajarra motor lorries. Why could not the butchers engaging three aboriginals to bring stock of Townsville do Jikewise~ Bullocks are from the Territory down to Dajarra, and transported on the northern railway system during the diseus~ion I heard them asking from Dajarra, Kajabbi, and all the cattle whether it ,,vas a 40-hour week. The A.W.U. loading centres in the Richmond. If a buyer organiser goes out and gets amongst the for a butcher in Charters Towers or Ayr can coloured employees of the station properties go out onto the cattle properties and buy as well as the white people and he tells them beef, there is nothing to stop buyers from the the conditions of work, and the aboriginal butchers in Townsville from doing the same. learns the local customs and conditions as We must not forget why these particular well as the white man. butchers did not buy. I have mentioned on Mr. Pie: Do the drovers work 40 hours the floor of this Chamber before the methods a week~ some cattle-buyers employ. I know of a cattle-buyer who went out into the Carpen Mr. SMITH: That is hard to say. They taria when the buffalo fly was ravaging the work according to the conditions they are herds. He attempted to beat the producei· droving under. They know there is a job down to a level at which it was not worth his to do and the sooner they eau get the stock while to sell his bullocks. The same has been to the delivery point the better it will be for going on in the Peninsula. The buyer will them. They take their holidays. after the tell the cattle-producer that droving and droving trip. They work accordmg to the other costs are so high that he can give only weather and the conditions they are droving the minimum price for cattle, notwithstand under. They may drove early in the morning ing the fact that the cattle he bought at a nncl rest during certain parts of the day. minimum price sold at the maximum price allowed by the Commissioner of Prices when I wish to emphasise the urgency of this thev arrived at the central market. That matter. It has been argued that we are practice has been going on for quite a long bringing in thi~ Bill in order _to acquire time. abattoirs and, it may be, to acqmre bullocks T feel that the time has come when the for the abattoirs. Governments today are Commonwealth and State Governments should looked to for support by every industry. take action to see that our pastoral properties There is not an industry in this State that are developed to their full capacity to produce over a period of years has not looked to the food for the neople not only of this State Government for financial or other support to hc:t for the Commonwealth and Britain. I help it reach the production stage. say that advisedly. Diverting for a moment, where would Mt. I cannot allow another remark by the hon. Isa be only for the financial assistance this member for Mundingburra to pass, that is, Government gave to them in the past~ We that the 'Pastoralists in the cattle industry are encouraging other industries, such as the were producing beef by cheap white and cement works. This Government have given black labour. That may have been so many them the guarantee of the best part of years ago. I travel extensively throughout £250,000 to £500,000. Abattoirs Acts [22 MARcH.] Amendment Bill. 2171 I feel that the Government could do some But, Mr. Mann, you can bet your bottom thing financially and through their departmen dollar that this Bill will not provide killing tal officers to help the cattle industry. I say centres or abattoirs at Duchess, the South that advisedly and sincerely. I feel that the Queensland border, or Eidsvold. I refer to cattle industry is something we shall have to Eidsvold as a typical cattle centre, but there look after in the future and see that it survives. are other places in Queensland suitalule for The men in the industry are looking to the the establishment of abattoirs to save the Government to do something by way of water cost of transport. As every person know.s, the conservation, either on the Burdekin or in loss in weight of cattle in transport is colossal, the Gulf or in the south-western parts or by as well as the saving of transporting a the opening of the channel country to see that carcass instead of a live bullock. the stock can be fattened and brought to the coastal areas and killed for local and over I rise again to point out that I am against seas consumption. Since the war in 1939 I this Bill from points of view other· than have seen the cattle industry on the Barkly those, the chief being that the centralising. of Tableland, in the Gulf country and in the killing centres will do away with local Northern Territory deteriorate to such an alaughter yards, which will help to bring extent as to be alarming. Lack of man-power about a major strike in the meat industry, and other obstacles will have to be overcome, which, in turn will bring about hungry bellies, so that we can build up the industry in which in turn will bring about revolution. order to be able to feed the people of this You remember, Mr. Manu, the Lord Mayor, State, the Commonwealth and Britain. There Alderman Chandler, socialised the bus services. will be no greater call to the people of You will remember my pointing out in thi~ Queensland than to feed the people of this Chamber that Mr. Chandler, the then head of State, the Commonwealth and Britain. the Queensland People's Party, who claimed I only hope that in the near future I will to be 100 per cent. against Socialism, had in see co-ordination between the State and Com reality socialised the bus services because he monwealth Governments, just as the Common had got his order from Wall Street. The wealth Government with New South Wales Queensland People's Party was to all intents and Victoria have agreed to spend and purposes against Socialism, so why did £100,000,000 to £180,000,000 in the next five Mr. Chandler socialise the bus servicesT or ten years. I wish to see something done Purely because he was told to do so to help on those lines. That will satisfy me that the bring about this state of chaos that is in cattle industry will be protected in the existence at the present time. If the bu' future. It is not much use acquiring or services had not been socialised at that time building an abattoir if you have not the stock the people of Brisbane would have been abk to bring to it. If we do not do that in to get to and from work in the private bm! conjunction with the acquiring or building services on those days when the one day tram of abattoirs it will be money wasted or and bus strikes occur. But the powers that misspent. be wanted it this way. In .conclusion I must say I sincerely hope The Leader of the Opposition pointed out that m the near future we shall see some that the Tory Government in 1931, referred thing done, not only in the acquiring or build to as the Moore Government, brought down ing of abattoirs on the coast, but in the a Bill to establish the abattoirs in Brisbane matter of water and fodder conservation for and the Government who were then the Oppo the feeding and fattening of stock to elimin sition fought bitterly against it. Now the}" ate or reduce to the minimum the ravages of are in favour of it. That means nothing to drought and the deterioration of our cattle me because when one looks at legislation .one industry, which have become alarming. finds that although the Tories oppose legis lation when they are. in Opposition, when Mr. BARNES (Bundaberg) (3.56 p.m.): they get back into power they do the very A member of the Opposition has said that I thing provided for by the legislation. If ri was in favour of killing centres a few years Tory Government in Canada were putting ago. I thought I made my position clear in through the same legislation as the Opposi the speech I made earlier this afternoon. I tion are opposing here, the Labour Govern am in favour of killing centres but am against ment at Canada would be opposing it.. In the centralising of workers in the meat other words, the Tories always oppose a industry, which will finally bring about revolu Bill brought down by Labour and Labom tion. I remember quite well that in the always opposes a Bill brought down by the speech I made some years ago I referred to Tories. That happens every clay in the week Eidsvold as a typical cattle centre and the as one will find by reading the papeTs .. establishment of an abattoir there as a means of saving the cost and the waste The Leader of the Opposition has pointPr1 in transport of the live bullocks to out that the Labour Party was against tl•r• Brisbane. There is a saving of approxi principle of this Bill in 1931 but has now mately 40 per cent. weight in trans turned a complete somersault. Was th::>t port. At that time also I referred to the somersault induced bv the internationrtl killing of beasts on the South Queensland bankers~ " border to prevent the meat from going to I say yes, and it is obvious. How~ver. Sydney on the hoof, in other words, the you can believe me that if the Tory• J:>art_, need for effecting a saving in transport. I was sitting on the Government side and the remember well speaking about having a kill 11ankers wanted the same Bill as this· to br• ing works at Duchess or Mount Isa or some introduced at this stage it would still be don~. such place to treat the cattle from the It does not make any difference to thein-:What Northern Territory. party is in power. " ' ' 2172 Abattoirs Acts [ASSEMBLY.) Amendment Bill. Mr. Aikens: VVho is the local agent of seconds and thirds. If I were Prime the international Jews J Is it Mark Isaacs ~ Minister of this country we would export our second- and third-grade products and .Mr. BARNES: I have already told the let our own people have the best goods. I Committee who the contact was. It is not would find markets for our second- and third this Minister. It is the Minister· who intro grade meats. Even if I had to pay top duce~ into Cabinet the Anti-picketing Act. price for the sec>ond- and third-grade meats I smd that at the time. I said that then, I would still sell it overseas. and I say now that the Minister who intro duced the Anti-picketing Act into Cabinet, The Government will realise that with this the Act that turned out to be such a Bill they will do what I said would happen calamity, is the contact. That Act put a with the Anti-picketing Act when it went halo round Mr. Hanlon 's head, and he took through; they would make a colossal mess. that halo off when he withdrew it. The Tory I am trying equally hard now to show the Government of Victoria did exactly the same Government the way they are following. thing as I said would happen in Queensland, VVhat they are putting over now is that they so I had every party on my side, but the agent are trying to starve the people, trying to in Queensland in this Government is the one bring about a revolution. That is what the who introduced that Anti-picketing Act into Learned Elders of Zion are trying to do, Cabinet. Other than that I cannot say. and the members of the Government are doing it and the members of the Opposition I do not know what is in the Bill. It has are helping them. eertainly been kept a secret from me, but you can believe me that the Bill is going to VVe hear Institute of Public Affairs broad he as the Lteader of the Opposition said; he casts over the air running down Socialism, said that the Minister, when introducing the running down this and that, running Bill, said abattoirs would be established in down the conscription of labour, all the larger places in Queensland. Later the with the idea of making the workers believe Minister denied that and said he said he was that they are against it. Who introduced the going to establish abattoirs throughout conscription of labour into the world 1 Queensland. Nobody but ;Lord Beaverb:rook, a high Mr. Collins: No, he did not. Tory, who produced the Beaverbrook plan. VV as Chandler against Socialism~ Yes. Did Mr. BARNES: VVhat did he say? he yield to Socialism when the pressure was ~Ir. Collins: He said that under the on~ Of course he did. And it is the same Hill they could bP established anywhere in with the Government, too. I say with sincer Queensland. ity that you are a lot of scabs and skunks to the workers of Queensland and you are Mr. BARNES: Under the Bill they can selllng the people of Queensland out-yes, not be established anywhere because you are both sides of the Chamber-to the inter not allowed to establish them at Duchess or at national financier and you are not interested Mt. Is a or in the south-west corner; you are in anybody else but yourselves, sitting on allowed to establish them only where you can your backsides and getting £20 a week for get central control of slaughtering and so it. create one gigantic union and make it possible for all to go out on strike and leave the Mr. MARRIOTT (Bulimba) (4.6 p.m.): people without meat. I have listened attentively to the debate, which has been entertaining from various angles. During the last meat strike, what happened I was particularly interested to hear the in Brisbane~ They brought meat from Beau Minister say when introducing the measure desert, Stanthorpe, and other places. They that it was proposed to make provision for were killing cows for £15 when the market an extension of the abattoir system and tg value of a cow at the time was about £8, make provision for the better inspection of and, by the same token, they supplied Bris meat supplied to the public. VVe have heard bane with better meat than the people were various speakers, shall we say, in opposition getting previously. But next time that can to the Bill-at any rate generally condemn not happen. Next time the Brisbane people ing it-for some reason or other that they cannot have meat. The Government, at the fear will be made known when the Bill is request of the Learned Elders of Zion, are presented. Personally, if it were only to introducing a Bill to stop that meat from make certain that the people of Queensland coming into Brisbane during the next strike, receive a good meat supply-meat of good and to stop the Bundaberg people from quality-! should welcome the Bill. The getting meat from the local slaughteryards Minister has assured us that that is one of because an abattoir will be established in its intentions. each provincial town in Queensland. That is the whole thing behind this Bill. There We know that in many centres of Queens is nothing else. laud-and I am not speaking of purely country centres because, generally speaking, The hon. member for Bowen mentioned one in country districts a reasonable quality of or two points I agree with. One was the meat is retailed to the public-and in some quality of meat. I agree with him there, but of the larger towns the quality of meat I disagree with both the Federal and State retailed to the public is not so good. It is Governments' policy of export and perish. even as bad as the general quality of the VV e export all our first-class goods to other meat supplied to Brisbane people and that countries and let our own people have the is pretty bad, taking it all round. If the meat Abattoirs Acts [22 MARcH.] Amendment Bill. 2173 to be provided for the people is to be sub purposes for use as fertiliser. What happens ject to veterinary inspection to ensure a today~ I was assured a month ago that ]Jroper quality, I should welcome that pro some carcasses were :placed in the meat hall ' 1 si on in the Bill. and one employee sa1d to another, "Surely We had the spectacle here the other day vou are not going to let that stuff go ouH'' of the hon. member for Kelvin Grove produc And the answer was, "Why not~'' Shortly ing a bit of flesh-skin, gristle, sinew and afterwards a meat wagon backed in and the hone. It reminded me of the wallaroos and carcasses were taken away to a preserving kangaroos that I used to shoot; generally works. One of the employees had actually said speaking, they were of better quality than that it should not go out to the consuming the flesh produced here, otherwise I should public but it was taken away. 11ot have eaten them. However, the hon. :iJir. O'Shea: I suppose that fore-quarter member for Kelvin Grove assured us that of lamb could have beeJl curried. this was a piece of lamb taken from a carcass that a retail butcher had bought in the sale Mr. :iJIARRIOTT: Probably mixed with yards at Cannon Hill amongst a pen of 14 other meats and ,'n1ade i~to ;ham -delight lamb£. I take it that the butcher knew he because what the eye does not see the heart bought the animals with all defects. He does not grieve over. This stuff goes not only discovered some were sick and suffering to the butcher shops but, worf\tU of all, it severely from malnutrition. The piece that goes out to the preserving works and is \\"aS exhibited here certainly came from an retailed in the form of small goods. The animal suffering from malnutrition. To Minister should have an examination. made use the words of the hon. member himself, of the, whole of the operat-ions at the abattoir what the purchaser lost on the swings he to ascertain the conditions under which meat got on the roundabout. From the pen of 14 goes through the meat hall to the public. lambs I do not think he lost anything because We are entit·led to know. those people who go there to buy are pretty shrewd. Hon. membe,r& opposite have said that the Bill has a socialistic flavour because it con 1Ir. Maher: And they have their eyes tains powers of acquisition. I judged from open. the Minister's introductory remarks that the purpose of the Bill was to give the }fr. MARRIOTT: He knew what he was Gove.rnment the power to acquire works to l.myh1g and I suppose the people who rarry on the business of abattoirs. I well inspected the carcasses said, ''As this man remember what happened back in the 'thirties hought 14 he must receive 14; here it goes." when it became known that the Government Whether it was branded as lamb or as first contemplate·d establishing abattoirs in Bris Mr. Maher: Why buy a business that Mr. Alkens: There is room for inquiry has been successful f and we want the Government to grant that. Mr. MARRIOTT: A large amount of Mr. MARRIOTT: There is certainly opposition to this Bill has arisen from the room for inquiry there. I do not expect that fact that it proposes to acquire works. I was the Government will utilise the powers of interested in the debate on this point and I acquisition unless it is absolutely necessary. recall that local authorities have that power, There was a time in this State when it was the power to acquire things for the general necessary to take action about cattle on the use of the people. Provision is made in this hoof. This was done under the Sugar Bill to acquire existing works. If that is Acquisition Act in order to supply the done the business of existing works, which people with meat. The late Hon. T. J. Ryan possibly could be the export of meat, can be took steps to see that the cattle that were carried on. When acquired the works could going over the borders to the high-price be converted to abattoirs to supply the people markets in Adelaide were held and declared with suitable wholesome meat when required, necessary under the Sugar Acquisition Act. and not as at present, as the hon. member I believe that the Minister will tell us that for Bundaberg remarked, to send all the best it will be only in an extremity that he will meat out of the country and retain the use the powers to acquire stock or abattoirs rubbish for our own people. That system is and I shall be interested to learn what the wrong. This Bill will contain methods to Minister has to say about the provisions of remedy that situation. That being so I wel the Bill. come it. I urge the Minister to have a thorough The representatives of the Opposition on i'l>estigation made about the meat that was local authorities have had no hesitation in exhibited here the other day; how it passed using their powers of acquisition. Recently through the meat hall and what goes on with there was an outcry against the Brisbane the operators. Only those who are licensed City Council for acquiring bus services run as operators are able to deal at the sale by private individuals. If a local governing yards in export meat. I am sure that there body or the Government think fit to acquire are quite a number of people who suddenly a public utility iu the public interests, it became rich. Under the system that exists should be acquired. I am thoroughly in now they are buying stock and having them accord with that policy, and have been so treated for export or local consumption ever since I was interested in local govern instead of the retailers being able to go ment. and buy in the yard and have them killed. Mr. lllaher: Why take funds that could Some of these people are becoming rich be used for developing the country for the through their fleecing of the retailer and the acquisition of meatworks already estab public. lished f Hon. H. H. COLLINS (Cook-Secretary Mr. MARRIOTT: If that acquisition is for Agriculture and Stock) ( 4.23 p.m.) : believed to be for the benefit of the public, There has been a great deal of discussion on it should be made. At present those works this Bill and its various aspects, particularly are merely carried on as export works. Only from the Country Party members who, high-quality meats are sent overseas. The generally speaking, I thought wJuld have Government are justified is acquiring such very wholeheartedly waleomed it. I was works if it is thought desirable and using surprised-indeed I was amazed-at some them to provide the people with quality meat. of the statements made. It was said that it was wrong to bring in this Bill and it was Mr. Maher: Would it not be better to wrong to take over meatworks, but actually make arrangements with those works to make it is only what members of the Country Party meat available for local consumption f themselves did when they were the Govern Mr. lliARRIOTT: That could be done, ment. Evidently a great deal of time. has although it has not been done in the past. been spent purely and simply on propaganda. Those works exported the best meat. If that and I am sure that propaganda will react is not so, why was it necessary to transport against them when the information about meat from Gladstone to relieve the meat this Bill gets out into their own electorates. shortage at Townsville ~ The Deputy Leader of the Opposition It was interesting to hear the hon. member started off by castigating the members of tl~e for Carpentaria. say that there was evidently Government-and the Leader of the Opposi some ulterior motive behind the action of the tion also did that a while ago-because of butchers in Townsville, otherwise they would our opposition to the measure brought in b;· have gone out and got cattle for the people, the Moore Government in 1931. It was not in the same way as the butchers in Ayr and the principle that was opposed then at all. Ingham did. Why was it that butchers in I have taken the opportunity of looking up Townsville could not get cattle-and I under some of the speeches that were made, and I stand some of them are in a large way as have found that what was objected to by the gi·aziers, too-when the butchers in those Leader of the Opposition at that time, the other towns could~ It seems strange that the Hon. Forgan Smith, was the fact that the butchers in the towns a few miles away were purchase had been made and what wns able to get cattle for their people when the brought here was not the matter of acquisi Townsville could not. It seems to me that tion but of ratification after the agree there is something radically wrong there. ment had been made. Allattoi7'8 Acts [22 MARcH.] Amendment Bill. 2175 That is an entirely different thing-asking A great deal of consideration was given by this Parliament to approve and to agree to the Government to this BilL It is something something that already was an accomplished that has been in the mind of the Government fact. What decent Opposition would not for a long time. Had it not been for the object to Parliament's being treated in that war, which started in 1939, there is no ques way, to a plain abrogation of the rights of tion that this Bill would have been brought Parliament~ The action o£ the Moore uovern· down years ago. There is a need for it. In ment was to make an agreement to purchase, the meantime, we had very far-reaching and fix everything up, and then come to inquiries made. Inquiries were made in all Parliament and say, "Here is th.:J agreement; States of Australia that have public abattoirs \':e want you to ratify it.'' That was why such as New South Wales and South Aus tl•e then Opposition were against the Bill, tralia. The works manager and the under and that is the attitude that any decent self secretary of my department were sent to respecting Opposition would have to take. New Zealand to investigate the system that Another of the objections of the then had been operating there for many years, but Opposition to the Bill was that it should put it was found that by no stretch of imagina some responsibility on the local authorities in tion could it be regarded as an up-to-date connection with the distribution of meat and system suitable to be brought in here. that the abattoir system shonlrl n·• "~''ly In addition, before this Bill was introduced, purely and simply to the City of Brisbane. the present chairman and manager of the The Act that we are amending today was board, with the meatworks manager, visited based on that principle-it applies to the the United States of America and inquired city of Brisbane only. Notwithstanding this into the whole of the meat business there. \Ye are accused of putting the system only In all, the best possible knowledge has been into the populous centres. What did the obtained as a result of very thorough investi _Moore Government do~ They put it up only gation. m th_e most J?Opulous centre of Queensland, Furthermore, a Royal Commission inquired the c1ty of Bnsbane. The Labour Party said into the industry. I am sure hon. members that local authorities should have some opposite will agree that the members of that authority and some responsibility. That was Commission were competent men. Nobody one of the objections to the Act by the will say that the late Mr. Sunners, who was I:abou.r Party,. an~, conseq:rently, that prin chairman and general manager of a works at Ciple IS embodred m the Bill I am bringing Cannon Hill, was anything but one of the before this Parliament. There was nothing most competent authorities in Australia on wrong_ :'t all in the attitude taken by the the meat industry. He was a very able and Opposition, the Labour Party, at that time very competent man. Then there was Mr. and there is no doubt that the Bill we ar~ Fletcher, who is well versed in the meat lninging down today is founded on sound industry. He is a pastoralist who has owned ground. It covers the criticism that was and controlled meatworks. On the financial levelled at the Act by the Opposition at that side was Mr. Crosser, the present Auditor time. There is no doubt about that. We General of Queensland. They were the three put the responsibility on the local authority men who formed the Commission and their for the inspection of meat-by boards con findings are partly embodied in this Bill. !rolled bJ: l_ocal authorities. I explained that Why all the opposition 1 It is all camouflage. m my ongmal explanation of the Bill. The arguments we have heard today do not in any way give a true reflection of the Mr. Maher; The objection to the Act IYas the acquiring of Swifts' meatworks. opinions held generally by both the public and the grazing industry of Queensland. These .lllr. COL~LINS: Swifts' meatworks had men do not represent them in Parliament, they been acquired. The agreement had been made. misrepresent them, and the evidence is here Then the Moore Government come down to in black and white in the Roval Commis- Parliament and calmly ask Parliament to sions's report. " ratify something they had done. They did In their O\Yll \VOrds, this is the principal not ask Parliament to approve of the system objection of the Opposition: ''It is inter they were going to establish. They did not fering with the present pastoral industry and ask Parlia~1ent to approve of the principle of the meat industry, and we do not waTtt any th~ abattorrs or of the price that was to be interference at all. It is Socialism and we pard. They paid a price which was probably cannot stand Socialism at any price.'' Was rr fictitious price at that time for those works not the acquisition of Swifts' meatworks, though today they are worth a great whieh is the present abattoir, interference deal more. Had those works been put up at with the then-existing industry~ Did not the [luction at that time they would not have hon. member for ·west Moreton interject ;Jrought a:r;ything like the £500,000 odd paid recently, "Why put out of industry men well eo the Swift people. Then, having done the experienced and well versed who are giving a jr'b--:-t_bc ~oore Government were not game public service 7" What did he and his friends to b:rmg It before Parliament before they do~ They simply took over one of the Jmtde the agreement-they brought it to Par biggest works in Queensland at that time and liament after the works had been bought. If probably one of the best managed of an: that was not high-handed action and undemo works at that time. They interfered that cratic action I do not know the meaning of time themselves. t~e wo:d. That was purely and simply the act The hon. member and his friends inter of a d1ctator. The Moore Government do the fered in the business. Where do they stand? job and then say to the people that they l1ave Do they stand for it or do they not' They to aceept what they do. say they do not believe in Socialism in any 2176 Abattoirs Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment BiU. shape or form. Apparently there are many State and it is the right of any Government things they did when they were in power in the interests of the people to do these in which they do not believe. Is not taxa things that are necessary in the interests of tion a form of Socialism~ Do we believe in the people. Is it right to acquire land for taxation, or do we noU They would say, soldier settlemenU "No, we do not believe in taxatio!l: because it is Socialism.'' Where do they stand~ Mr. Sparkes: You put a special Bill Without taxation there would be no education, through the House for that. there would be no University, there would be no hospitals, there would not be police Mr. COLLIN1S: The hon. member will protection, and there would not be the Public probably say it is wrong. It is the Govern Service, which does protect the whole of the ment's responsibility to see that those industries of the State. Apparently they do soldiers who fought for and saved this not believe that we should give help to country are well and properly set up and people who are stricken by cyclones, flood, or consequently we take the right to acquire drought because that, again, is a type of land._ If we wanted to acquire land for a Socialism. That is taking money from one hosp1tal or a school we have the right to do section of the people who earn it and giving so under certain laws. Is there any harm it to another section who do not earn it. in doing that? Every time there is a drought or a flood, who Fmthermore, is it right that we should are the people who cry out loudly~ Very fix wages by arbitration~ Is not that in often it is the people living in the country essence acquiring a man's services at a price areas who are badly affected. iixed by the Industrial Court, which is The Government gladly came to their aid regarded as the competent authority¥ Hon. and gave them relief. Apparently hon. mem members opposite have objected to these bers opposite condemn that as being wrong. things. The right of acquisition is nothing When a drought hits them, we rail their cattle new. Vve have the power and we have and sheep for half rates-- acquired cattle in Queensland before today. Mr. Sparkes: Is that not for the benefit Mr. Sparkes: Sugar. of the State~ ~lr. COLLINS: It was not to acquire Mr. COLLINS: And is it not Socialism sugar. and is not Socialism for the benefit of the Mr. Silarkes: The Sugar Acquisition State' You cannot laugh it off. Under the Act. system advocated by the Opposition every body would pay for his own education and Mr. COLLINS: The Act was called the there would be private schools and no public Sugar Acquisition Act, but cattle were schools at all. Under their system there acquired under it. The case was tested in would not be any public hospitals and if a the highest court in the British Empire, and person got sick he would probably die; and the law was found to be sound. There is no under their system there would be no rail need to put a special clause in the Bill to ways. And so hon. members opposite do give the Government that general power. The not believe in railways, education, and hospi pe>wer has always been there; it is inherent tals, and they do not believe in any of those in ~very Government. However, this Bill things that are the products of Socialism. apphes to the meat industry in particular, and we do not want to go to an outside Just what do hon. members opposite believe authority to get the power to run meatworks in~ They call it confiscation because vve and treat cattle that are required to feed the propose to acquire meatworks, if necessary, people and to be exported. We want to do in order to do what~ In order to give the the job properly, decently and well. What is graziers a better service and a cheaper ser wrong with that~ vice than they are getting now in the hand ling of their stoek and to give the public The Leader of the Opposition complained meat killed under strict inspection. Do they that I had referred to those powers towards believe that that should be done or do they the end of my speech. That is true, but if noU The graziers, generally speaking, desire he will look at the Bill when he gets it he it to be done and hon. members sent here as will find that I dealt with the Bill in proper their representatives say that they do not sequence, that that provision comes towards want it but want private enterprise to make the end of the Bill. That is the only reason all the profit it ean out of the meat the why I did not deal with it in the beginning. graziers send in. Let me return to the Moore Government Let us develop the argument. Is acquisi· again, and to the people who claim to be such tion wrong"! Is it new~ Was there ever a stalwart's of the people's rights. They time when constitutional government as we limited the scope of compensation, to be paid know it did not have the power and right for the acquisition of slaughteryards and sale of acquisition~ Before the Parliament of yards that they rendered valueless by their l~ngland was established kings had the right artion in establishing the abattoir, to £10,000. to acquire whatever property of the people They did not give the owners of them fair they wanted. The people did not think that compensation but simply limited the total right and they formed a Parliament and amount of compensation to £10,000. That handed that power over to Parliament and meant that when the £10,000 ran out there it has been in existence ever since Parliament was no more money for compensation. We was introduced. It has been in the present do not propose to do that. If necessary, we Constitution since Queensland has been a propose to acquire meatworks under the Abattoirs Acts [22 MARCH.] Amendment Bill. 2177 Public Works Land Resumption Act in con· idly by aml see the people starved into sub junction with the powers already exercised by mission~ I emphatically say that the Labour the Co-ordinator-General. There is nothing new Party does not subscribe to that policy. in legislative principle in that. Not only that, but if we are compelled to Mr. Nicklin: How are you going to com acquire meat for that purpose we will do pensate the slaughteryards ~ so at a fair and reasonable price, as fixed by Mr. COLLINS: Would it be desirable to the Commissioner for Prices. He does not have other works operating in Brisbane and fix the price of meat at Townsville; he fixes other parts of the State in competition with the price of meat for Queensland. The prices he fixes under that regulation are such that public abattoirs~ That is one thing that has virtually destroyed the public-abattoir system everyone observes them. Is that not a fair in New Zealand. In Brisbane you have the and equitable method of acquiring meat for cheapest killing rate in Australia and that the people of Towusville, Rockhampton or is a system that we wish to extend through anywhere where there might be a hold-up out Queensland so as to protect the people on by some of those brigands in the industry at the one hand and the rich pastoral industry the present time~ It seems to me that with all its ramifications and its benefits on some hon. members think it quite right to the other. We are here to look after those acquire everything until we come to tlw people, not to destroy them. meat industry and then the principle is entirely wrong. We do it in everyday life Mr. Nicklin: Your are going to com by the ordinary methods of government. pensate the slaughteryards that you close up~ That would happen no matter what Govern Mr. COLLINS: Yes, definitely. But ment were in power. there will be no specific total amount of com I have heard it said that we are looking pensation. The owners will be given fair on the graziers in a very unfair way. No value. We do not propose to limit the amount one ever heard me in this Parliament or any tv £10,000 and then calmly say, "You cannot where else say that the grazier is anything br paid any more because there is no more but one of the very responsible members of money in the fund.'' We propose to compen our community, one of the very desirable sate them to the extent that they have members of our community, and as a section suffered damage. Is that not a fair and of our community he does a job as well as reasonable approach to this subjecU any other section. In fact, the graziers do And what is wrong in acquiring cattle~ a magnificent job. They went out and I explained the position clearly and plainly developed the State when there was ver: when I made my speech. What is wrong in little in it. 'rhey built up large flocks an1l acquiring cattle where there is a strike or herds. They have been helped by the some happening in the industry whereby Government in many ways during their people are not being fed~ trials. When they were hit with drought the Mr. Pie: Are you going to acquire the Government came to their assistance. The cattle at your own pricef Government ran unpaying railways into their areas to help them to develop their herds lUr. COLLINS: It is the responsibility and flocks. In a thousand and one ways the of a Government to see that people are fed, Government have aided them. It made my clothed and sheltered. We should be shirk heart bleed here the other day to hear the ing our responsibility if on the one hand we Deputy Leader of the Opposition refer to hafl any quantity of food in the country and them and say, by inference, that they thieved ou the other the people were starving. Do cattle from stations owned by the State you think that we as a Government or any during the period that the State owned cattle other Government worth their salt could stand stations. That is a pretty unfair stigma to idlv by and see people starve~ If a cer put on that very good body of men. I taiil section of private enterprise falls down know that among the people 'who wen' oP its job we can by virtue of the Bill step neighbours of those stations referred to by in and do the job that it had been doing and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition were should continue to do. the most honourable men in this State. I We have a classic example of that in have a list here of State stations. Thev Townsville today. Townsville is the c<>ntre are-Brooklyn, Lyndhurst, Dunbar, Stratl; of probably the largest cattle-growing dis more, Vanrook, York Downs, Kuparee, Silver trict in Australia, yet that was the only part Plains, Maitland Downs, Cotswood, W ando of Queensland and Australia where the Vale, Buckingham Downs, Diamantina Lakes. butchers recently could not get beef. As a Keeroongooloo, and Dillalah. I know man:· result the Government had to go to the help of the people who were neighbours of those of the people, procure meat for them and Btations. I will not h:we it said of those send it there in order that they could get people that they made a lot of money thim- supplies of food. ing cattle from State stations, as stated hY Mr. ,Sparkes: The hon. member for the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. I Carpentaria says they could have got stand behind those men, who have done n supplies of cattle. magnificent job in helping to develop this State, and I stand behind them in their lllr. COLLINS: Of course they could. defence when their honour is impugned b: What is wrong that Townsville cannot get an irresponsible statement made for prop3- meat~ Because of a strike of butchers or ganda purposes by the Deputy Leader of the wholesalers-that is not different from any Opposition. He knows better; I am cm·tnin other strike-are the Government to stand he does. 2178 Abattoirs Acts [ASSEMBLY.) Amendment Bill. Mfr• .Maher: I will surprise you on the That principle also is in the Bill; we give second reading. local authorities the power to elect their members to a board to run and control the 1ilfr. COLLINS: Perhaps the hon. mem localised killing. ber will give a list of the names on the second reading. I could go on and quote many more pages As to the attacks on the Bill by the of foolscap containing the same opinions, but Opposition, I exempt from the list the hon. I do not propose to do that. I will now read the evidence given by Mr. P. B. Newcomen, a member for Logan, the leader of the Queens man who is highly respected in the grazing land People's Party, who said that he agreed with the Bill in principle, and he gave it his industry, being president of the Queensland Hessing up to that point, and he reserved United Graziers' Association. This is what he the right to criticise anything he found wrong said:- in the Bill. "We think it is essential that it should The hon. member for Albert made a very be a subsidiary of the Queensland Meat fair speech, as he usually does. He welcomed Industry Board. We think the Queensland Meat Industry Board has done very good the Bill as he thought it was one that would do a great service for the people. service and it is the proper way an abattoir should be run. If we are going to go into I will quote what the Royal Commission private ownership we should be taking a received in evidence from members of the leap in the dark." United Graziers' Association. I quote first the evidence of Mr. .J. L. Wilson, who was Exactly what is advocated by some members asked the series of questions, put to the opposite-leave the private owners to run the various witnesses as follows:- public abattoirs. We are not proposing to Jt is proposed that the works be- do that. (a) Co-operative, and if so, with or This is what one of the leading graziers without government support. has to say:- (b) Government owned and conducted. '' The Queensland Meat Industry Board (c) A subsidiary of the Queensland Meat has had the experience and has the qualified Industry Board. officers to do the work. We think it is the (d) In the case of abattoirs to provide proper body to take charge. ' ' for local supplies only, under the I have now given the Committee the best control of the Local Authority, with evidence I can produce as to the reason why the advice of the Queensland Meat from a grazier's point of view what we are Industry Board. doing is an absolutely desirable thing. 'Hlese were the answers given by Mr. The other day we had the interlude of the Wilson, who represented Gladstone, Banana, hon. member for Mundingburra coming into Dnaringa and Baralaba Branch of the this Chamber and in his very flamboyant Central Coastal Graziers' Association:- manner setting out what he did in Towns •' A subsidiary of the Queensland Meat vine in the strike of the master butchers in Industry Board. That is what we advocate. that city. He stated very vociferously how Under the present Act you have not the he stood in the queue waiting to buy the yower, but it is only a matter of the Gov· family meat and said, in fact, that he had a e:rnment giving sanction to overcome that fight with a policeman. That was of very difiicul ty. ' ' great help to a number of people in Towns '.I'here is one of the principal graziers who ville to get all the meat they wanted to carry is more or less arguing that we should havE' on with. the power to take over the works and run them under the Queensland Meat Industry Mr. Aikens: My branch has asked you floard. I am pleased to say that that prin· for a Royal Commission into the meat position eiple is embodied in the Bill. in Townsville. Mr. Kent, the manager of Thylungra Station at Quilpie, said this:- Mr. COLLINS: Yes, but what did the hon. member do~ He did not do what the ''A subsidiary of the Queensland Meat hon. members for Kennedy and Townsville Industry Board operated on the lines of the Queensland Meat Industry Board.'' did. The hon. member for Townsville met me in Townsville and pointed out the position. Mr. A. C. V. Bligh, grazing farmer, Conda· The hon. member for Kennedy waited on me mine, Brookstead, said this:- and pointed out the position and asked me as "I would advocate that the works (at head of the department to see that the people 'I'oowoomba) be eo-operative and with in Townsville got meat. Mr. Whiting, chair Government support. The co-operative man of the A.L.P., also waited on me while hasis should not only be suppliers but also I was in Townsville and pointed out the for employees. . . . I do not feel that it is position. It was as the result of the repre 'l'lecessary to be a subsidiary works. A sentations made by these three men that town of this size should be capable of ~vork was immediately put in hand and meat running its own abattoir. . . . I do not was sent from Rockhampton to Townsville. think we could do without the assistance ·Today meat is being sent from Gladstone to of the Queensland Meat Industry Board. Townsville in order to overcome this hold-up, 'I'he only thing I do not want to see is the which is being purposely brought about by Mntrol of the works taken away from the the few butchers who are trying to make uistrict. ' ' political propaganda and create chaos in Abattoirs Acts (22 MARCH.] Amendment Bill. ~1'79 Townsville. But the hon. member for Mun· In order to place it on record, I will read ilingburra has had so much to say about it a statement giving a comparison of local anJl ''See what I did. I waited in a queue and export meat gradings at the Brisbane abattoir. the queue was about 40 or 50 people long.'' The information has been furnished by :Mt·. Hope, chairman of the Queensland Meat ~Ir. Aikens: My branch asked you to Industry Board, and it sets out that for the appoint a Royal Commission to go into the three months' period from December, 1948, position. to February, 1949, which was selected' as being the period when livestock supplies are Mr. COLLINS: That was a very great at normal levels, the beef carcasses treate\1 help: that was no assistance in getting meat at the Brisbane abattoir and sent to the mPJt to Townsville. Did we need a Royal Commis hall for domestic trade comprised- sion to get meat to Townsville ~ What were 59.39 per cent. first grade. the people there to do while the Royal Com 23.05 per cent. second grade. mission was being appointed and went through 17.56 per cent. unbranded. the Townsville area getting evidence~ Were the people to calmly go without meat in the The unbranded is meat ordinarily classed -" the third grade. meantime~ The practical work was done by the members who really represent the people For the same period, the beef carcass,'H there and consequently the people in Towns treated at the Brisbane abattoir on behaJ f ville have never gone without meat. of the operators and ordered out for export trade comprised- In order to further aggravate the position 31.4 per cent. first grade. the butchers there were complaining that we 4.3 per cent. second grade. were not sending up the meat they wanted, 64.3 per cent. third grade. that we were sending only hind-quarters. The very best meat one could possibly have This discloses that while Brisbane received was sent, but they wanted fore-quarters, necks, only 17.5 per cent. third-grade meat 63.3 l?'r cent. of third-grade meat was exported, whiCh heads and things like that. We did supply shows that the public are really and truly the people of Townsville with the best of duly protected. meat and this was largelv due to the activi ties of the three men I have mentioned-the Now we come to the stage where thi~ hon. members for Kennedy and Townsville, poverty-stricken carcass of lamb was brought and Mr_. Whiting. They took a very active in here as an exhibit of what went through and prominent part in the situation. the meat hall at the abattoir. Anyone would think that it was the abattoir that bought Mr. Aikens: And the working-class that carcass and sold it to some butcher. organisations of Townsville, of which I am a The abattoir had nothing to do with tlw member. carcass except to kill the beast and skin it on behalf of the owner who bought it in the Mr. COLLINS: It was not the hon. saleyard and asked the abattoir to do that member for Mundingburra. I did not get for him. It was killed and given to him. even one letter or wire from that hon. member It was examined by the health inspector l,Uld in regard to the struggle to get meat for the best that can be said about it is ,th:,t these people. Where is the evidence that he it was not unhealthy meat. did anything at all, except his own evidence of fighting with a policeman in a queuef I immediately sent part of the carcass out for examination and report. The report 3Ir. Sparkes: The hon. member for 1 received was that it was one of a pen of Carpentaria said he would get you all the 14 lambs sent down there for sale. There meat you want for Townsville. were three wasters amongst them and thi'l was Ol'le of the three wasters. The price thP :ur. COLLINS: The butchers were told butcher paid for it was probably only· thr• that but they did not want meat, they wanted skin value, which was its value. 'J;'he rest of the hold-up. That is all that they were the carcass, I suggest, should not have beeH wanting. put into his shop, and it was a disgraee. ~o the butcher who put that Iamb into his .<)wn We have heard much about the quality of shop and offered it to the public for sale; I meat supplies from the abattoirs to the public say that without any qualms, and I .do· nL•t of Brisbane. That is a very essential part say that the inspector of the meat is entirely of the work of the abattoirs. There is a absolved from anv blame in connection witii general opinion that it is only second it. I say he sli'ould have condemned that quality meat that is on sale in the butchers' carcass and it should not have gone out l'.s shops in Brisbane. That is entirely wrong. fit for human consumption, although it. i' There is no truth in that at all. The people healthv. I have a rceonl is where he possibly may have got his mis FIRST READING. Under the State electoral law, the pro Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (5.20 p.m.): eedure is commenced anew and fresh nomi The Bill, from the Minister's explanation, nations are called. So far as possible, this seems to be quite a good one. The circum Bill brings the local-authority law into line stances outlined by the Minister as having with the State electoral law. Where there occurred in the past might arise in the would be a contest for the office of chair future, for example in an election for chair man and one of the candidates dies, then the man. One candidate may be a very desir electoral procedure for election to the office able candidate while the other may be a of chairman is required to be commenced very undesirable one. I am not saying that anew and the procedure for election to other position frequently arises. offices goes on undisturbed. Again, if there is a contest for the offices of members gener Hon. members will appreciate the fact that ally, or members representing a particular particularly in local-authority elections a division, and one of the candidates dies, number of people select the candidate. They then the electoral procedure for the offices get behind the person whom they think suit generally, or, as the case may be, the par able and a number of would-be candidates ticular division, is commenced de novo and stand down in favour of the person they think the procedure for election to other offices is more suitable. Some irresponsible person earried on undisturbed. If necessary the who disregards everybody else decides to Governor in Council is authorised to fix a stand and he gets the support of a number fresh date for the part of the election that of people with a somewhat similar outlook. is to be held again. If the first man dies there is every possibility -in fact it is a certainty under existing We go further in connection with this regulations-that that undesirable person matter. For instance, take Divisions I., II., will be elected. This is a very important III., and IV. of a local authority. If a matter, because local-authority work is becom candidate for any one of those divisions ing more and more difficult every day. If dies, the election proceeds undisturbed for an undesirable candidate got in by accident the other divisions. In the division where one and the people had to put up with him for of the candidates dies, fresh nominations are three years, it would be a very unhappy ealled and the Governor in Council fixes the state of affairs. I am glad that the Minister date of the election. is proposing to legislate on these lines. Some thing like this should have been done years Those are all the provisions contained in ago. the I::ill. The amendments will be of advan tage to local authorities. I commend the I did not hear the Minister explain fully measure to the Chamber for favourable con 11-hat he proposed to do in an undivided area. sideration. A number of local authorities are adopting the undivided area. In the event Of a death Mr. SPARKES (Aubigny) (5.18 p.m.): taking place in that area would that upset I have listened to the explanation given by the whole of the elections~ I take it that it the Minister and I am sure that if that is would. all the Bill contains the majority of hon. Itlr. LUCKINS (Maree) (5.23 p.m.): I members will appreciate it. As an old local think the principles outlined by the Minister authority man I realise the difficulties that are very desirable. A shire in the Central have been caused by the death of a candidate. district has made a request for the power Local authorities will not take exception to mentioned as to the making of small har this Bill; on the other hand, they will wel bours, and there has been agitation for a come it and be pleased that it has been similar provision in the metropolitan area. introduced. Deathf¥ of candidates have I hope· steps will be taken by local authori occurred on numerous occasions. Deaths have ties to establish such harbours so that occurred of candidates in State elections also. pleasure craft can be provided for, at the Mr. Larcombe: And in Commonwealth, same time in no way disturbing the naviga too. tion of the river. I think the Bill is very desirable. It caters for those who get great Mr. SPARKES: I cannot recall the pleasure from boating. Commonwealth instance. Mr. ROBERTS (Nundah) (5.24 p.m.) : lllr. Larcombc: Kennedy. Like other hon. members I am pleased to see this Bill coming down, particularly Mr. SPARKES: I have been aware of because of the provisions enabling local the farcical results that followed the death authorities to establish small-boat harbours. of a eandidate under the present law. No Like the hon. member who has just resumed exception will be taken to this Bill, but his seat, I hope the Brisbane City Council naturally one desires to see its provisions will avail itself of this opportunity to pro before expressing too much pleasure with it. vide this city and this river with a suitable small-boat harbour. For some years, as hon. Mr. Power: I can assure you it is all members probably know, the Queensland right. Yacht Club has been endeavouring to obtain suitable harbourage for their vessels. It is Mr. SPARKES: We can accept the deplorable to see some of the fine boats we i\Unister 's assurance at its face value. When have on the Brisbane River and in Moreton we examine the Bill I hope it will disclose Bay, covered with filth that they pick up that it eontains only what the Minister has in the only available harbour, in Breakfast explained. • Creek, and in the river itself. Different 2182 Local Government Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendm~ent Bill. ~ections of the Queensland Yacht Club, I Ji'ederal law Grosvenor FranCis entered the understand, have been advocating the use of Federal House without election. I remember, two areas for the creation of small boat too, that the late \V. A. Watt, Treasurer of harbours. the Federal Government in his day, and a Some allvocate the establishment of such a member of Grosvenor Prancis's own party, harbour in the vicinity of Waterloo Bay or bitterly assailed Francis for accepting the seat somewhere about Wynnum. Another section under those circumstances. Notwithstanding advocate its establishment in the vicinity of that, Francis remained in the Federal House Pinkenba. This Bill will give the Brisbane for the full term of that Parliament. He had City Council an opportunity of listening to never been elected but took the seat because the arguments for and against these localities. Charles McDonald dieil between nomination I sincerely hope that in view of all the day and polling days. circumstances-and these will have to Mr. Plnnkett: Was he declared elected? be very thoroughly considered-a small-boat harbour will be established at or in the ltlr. AIKENS: He was declared elected. vicinity of Pinkenba. I understand from When Charles McDonald died between nomi those who know and who are fortunate enough nation clay and polling day, Francis was the to own such pleasure craft, that that would only candidate left. Members of his own be the most suitable and accessible localitv party in the Federal House-and he was a in the metropolitan area for such a harhom:. Tory, and the Tories controlled the Pederal House at the time-felt so strongly about his Not only do I desire the establishment of action that they thereupon amended the such a harbour at Pinkenba for the pleasure Federal Act to bring it into conformity with of the owners of such small craft, but if the State Act, which provides that if a these people are given the opportunity, if candidate dies between nomination day an than it would be so with dentists. The much work and time in compilation, because Minister pointed out that in the last 10 years when it becomes law it will have no real only half a dozen students have graduated effect in increasing the number of dentists. under the age of 21 years. Mr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) (5.47 :ilir. Jones: No. What I said was that of the 10 fellowship-holders who had graduated p.m.) : The question is simply this: is a man in the last two years three of them were under to be allowed to practise as a dentist the the age of 21 years. moment he passes the qualifying examination or will he be compelled to wait until he Mr. Hiley: Have there been other cases reaches the alleged magical age of 21 ~ As that you know of~ far as I am concerned, the moment a man Mr. Jones: Yes. passes a qualifying examination and thus becomes competent he should be allowed to Mr. Aikens: And there may be more in the future. go out and practise as a dentist. Let me for example quote a hypothetical Mr. NICKLIN: I do not know that there case of two boys, one six months older than will be. It is only the very brilliant student the other. They go to school together; they who matriculates before reaching the age of go through their senior university examination 17 years, and as the dental course is one of together; they go to the University together; four years he would be 21 before he they study for the same period of years, graduates. Actually this Bill will benefit passing all examinations with equal merit, but very few indeed, and will have no effect what on the day of passing their final dental exami ever on relieving the shortage of dentists. nations one is 21 years of age and the other In addition, there may be a danger in the is only 20 years and six months. Wh:1t right Bill. It may enable, say, one brilliant student have we to compel the boy who is 20 years who may graduate under the age of 21 years and six months to wait for six months before to practise his profession, whereas some of the he can go out and practise as a dentist when studentS-and there will not be very many his companion, who started school with him would be much better if they had more prac 15 or 16 years previously, is able, because tice after they had graduated. Perhaps it he is 21, to go out straightaway and practise )I'Ould be better to allow them to practise for as a dentisH a while under the guidance of someone else before they were allowed to go out into the There is no justification for making a man world and practise on their own account. wait until he reaches the age of 21 years. Doctors must serve for a certain period after In the last war boys of 18 years flew bombers graduation in a hospital before they are per and fighters over Germany. We had men of mitted to practise on their own account. 18 and 21 years holding many responsible That is right. It may also be necessary for positions in the land. As to the argument dental students who have graduated to prac advanced by the Leader of the Opposition tise under guidance before they are allowed that this Bill will affect only a very small to practise on their own account. Before he percentage of those who graduate as dentists, is allowed to practise on his own account he I say that if it only affects one boy in only should have some practical experience in 10 years its introduction is amply justified. addition to the theoretical knowledge and Mr. HILEY (Logan) (5.49 p.m.): I have perhaps a certain amount of practical never been one who was able to persuade knowledge that he got during his graduation himself that in many important matters course. touching human life and behaviour, at the However, while I am not objecting to this magic hour of midnight, in some fleeting Bill, I think it is not really necessary. We second, a person becomes endowed with quali are introducing legislation to cater for a few fications he did not have a second or two very exceptional cases. In some instances before. That, after all, is the obvious impli quoted by the Minister one man had to wait cation that attaches to many of our require one month, another two months, and another ments that age qualifications are necessary 10 months before attaining the age of 21. It for certain functions. Let us have a look would not hurt the two who had to wait for at some of the qualifications to which it two months to put an extra two months in at applies. the Dental College and get practical training Earlier this session we were discussing the before going into general practice. 'l'ra:ffic Act, and we saw that a boy, till ;he Admittedly, as the Minister says, if this turns a certain age, shall not have a driver's Bill provided one dentist for the far western license. The result is that the law says he parts of the State where there are no dentists, is not eligible to-day but tomorrow he is it is justified. He has a great deal of justi eligible to hold a license. There is a similar fication for making that remark. We want to position when it comes to voting. Some give the people in the \7\f est all the dental anr1 citizens, at one stroke of a clock, are not medical services possible. Nevertheless, I entitled to exercise the franchioo but the, really think this legislation is to a great minute the clock ticks off past a particular extent unnecessary as it only provides for milestone they are. We have it in the exceptional e~ses and will make no real Criminal Code-the age of consent for females impact on the shortages of dentists. is laid down and the magic passing of that Ministers complained in the course of a age entitles them to do something that they debate just recently of the extra work coul<:l not do before. Pnt~iled by the introduction of legislation. Mr. Power: At the age of 18 you are This is one Bill that might have been with compelled to go and :fight for your coun:try. held and the Minister could have been spared That is very important too. Dental Acts Amendment BiU. [22 MAROH.] City of Brisbane, &:c., Bill. 2185 Jlr. HILEY: If a question of entitle Motion (Mr. Jones) agreed to. ment were to be the be-all and end-all of this Resolution reported. question, I should feel there was no sound reason why a person who possesses the same FIRST READING. qualifications as his elder brother shoultl be debarred from practising, but there is one Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. important astpect of the subject that should J ones, read a first time. be considered and that is this: if we pass this amendment, unless certain safeguards are written into the drafting, concerning which CITY OF BRISBANE ACTS the Minister has not told us but which will AMENDMENT BILL. be apparent when we see the Bill, it would mean that a boy would be entitled by law INITIATION IN COMMITTEE. to practise his profession as a dentist before he is 21 years of age. That boy is, in fact, (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Mann, n minor and under the common law he is not Brisbane, in the chair.) responsible under contracts into which he enters. They are not enforooable bP,ca.use Hon. W. POWER (Baroona-Secretary . they are enforceable only if they are for for Public Works, Housing, and Local nece,ssaries, and nobody would suggest that Government) (7.15 p.m.): I move- the practice of that boy is a necessary with '' That it is desirable that a Bill be in the meaning of the law. The result is introduced to amend the City of Brisbane that every patient who deals with him would Acts, 1924 to 1948, in certain particulars.'' have no enforceable remedy against him because he could say, "I am a minor. You The Bill is a short measure designed to clear cannot enforce the law against me because up some doubt that arises as to the closing date of rolls at triennial elections in the it is not a contract for a necessary.'' city. The present law requires the roll used lUr. Aikens: Could he be sued through at the triennial election to consist of- his guardian~ ( 1) The annual roll prepared under the State electoral law to 31 December in the JUr. JHLEY: No. He can be sued only year preceding the year of election; and for necessaries. If you e.xamine the position (2) A quarterly roll prepared under the vou will find that a commitment entered into State electoral law to 31 March in the by a. minor practising in a profession would year of the election. not be held to be for a. necessary within the In 1944 the provision in the State electoral meaning of the law. The result is that my law requiring the preparation of quarterly initial approach to this measure is this: I rolls was repealed, but no consequential altera am not without regard for the need for the tion was made in the City of Brisbane Act. vrovision in cases outlined by the Minister but The City of Brisbane Act has now been T think there should be a way of meeting these redrafted to clearly establish 31 March as the types of difficulty without employing the closing date of the roll. A supplemental roll particular method he has chosen to adopt. is required to be prepared to that date. I The three instances the Minister quoted might say that I received a letter from the are social-service scholarship-holders who do Town Clerk, who is the returning officer for the City of Brisbane, asking that this :uatt~r not want to go out into public practice. be clarified and requesting me to brmg m They are committed to serving the State the neecssary legislation to help clarify the for a number of years and the Minister wants to be in a position to use the boys whom his position. departme;nt has trained for the job. They There are also several minor amendments. do not want to go into private practice. It The first is that the term " elector" is being <>eems the right remedy for such a case for redefined. It is now a simple definition the Minister to write into the law something following that contained in the State electoral that will permit that boy to practise his law. The principles of the old an~ new profession as a servant of the department. definitions are similar; the alteration is If we write into the law soimething that will verbal. permit a minor to put up his shingle and A verbal alteration has also been made in publicly practise his profession I warn hon. section 7 which sets forth the qualification members that there may be some very grave required 'to be held by candidates. On a and serious consequences, unless we take strict reading of the section as it presently eare to amen;l the law dealing with liability stands nobody could be qualified to nominate, of infants under contracts because we shall becaus~ one of the qualifications is enrolment otherwise expose every patient of such a boy on an annual roll compiled under the City to the risk of having no contractual remedy of Brisbane Acts. An annual roll is not, against the dentist if he is careless, negligent of course, compiled under the City of Bris or extortionate. bane Acts· it is compiled under the Sta.tQ When we see the Bill I shall be intereste'd electoral l~w. The intention of the law is to see the particular method the amendment made clear. employs of approaching this question and to The roll for the election of mayor is discover whether there are adequate safe declared to be the rolls for each ward joined gu~uds against possible commitments that together. The law is at present silent on minors in practice may incur, for which this point, although this has always been the those safeguards are required. practice followed. 2186 Traffw Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Traffw Bill. We are merely clarifying the position in 1Ir. JONES: Yes, we are taking control order to rectify any anomalies that may exist. of traffic out of the hands of local authori We are also making provision for all those ties entirely, and I think that in the main people who wish to vote at the forthcoming local authorities wish to get rid of it. In election to have their names enrolled for that my own electorate I have been approached purpose. and asked to let the police take over traffic Motion agreetl to. and I know that similar requests have come from other parts of the State. Resolution reported. .-- I read an article in ' 'Smith's Weekly'' last week dealing with traffic conditions . in FIRST READING. South Australia, which said that many Ade Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Power, laide taxi-drivers had taken advantagP of read a first time. the chaotic traffic set-up. Traffic control is administered by the Adelaide City Council and 20 suburban councils. Each council is TRAFFIC BILL. its own licensing authority, and so the Ade laide Citv Council and 20 suburban councils SECOND READING. are all licensing authorities. Each is responsible for the control of Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers traffic in it& ovm area. The article points out Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) that there is no uniformity and one does not (7.21 p.m.): I move- knovv exactly what the other is doing. Onl' '' That the Bill be now read a second may have a certain set of by-laws that do not time.'' apply in another area a few miles away. Consequently, the conditions are such that it Hon. members have had an opportunity of is almost impossible to have proper adminis perusing the Bill and I think that, generally tration of traffic laws in a city the size of speaking, they will agree that it is at least Adelaide. a genuine attempt to consolidate the Traffic Acts of Queensland, to bring them up to I believe that the Bill will make for more date, and to get away from the chaotic uniformity in Queensland and provide for a conditions that have existed in the past in our much better system than we have at the traffic legislation. It will be noted that one moment. That should be fairly obvious to of the principal features of the legislation anybody. The Commissioner for Police and is the making for uniformity, for simpler the Chief Inspector will be superintendents of administration. traffic for the whole of the State. Inspectors of police in charge of police districts will be /The State of Queensland is divided into superintendents of traffic for their district 144 local authority areas, comprising 12 and officers in charge of police stations will cities, 11 towns, and 121 shires. At present be traffic superintendents in their areas. there are 39 traffic districts in Queensland }Ir. Sparkes: Will it be necessary to a del to which the provisions of the Acts and to the staff~ regulations have been applied by the Governor in Council. This traffic legislation JUr. JONES: There will be no need to is in force in 11 cities, 8 towns, and 22 add to the staff because alTcady police officers shires, and there are one city, three towns, are doing a certain amount of work for the and 99 shires in which the traffic legislation Main Roads Commission and other depart is not in force, and there are 22 shires in ments. which the traffic districts are outside the boundaries of such shires. Those figures will At the present time the driver of a motor give hon. members some idea of the present Yehicle has issued to him two separate uvcu position. ments, a certificate of competency and an authority to operate. In future there will be The proposed Bill makes provision for 14 only one uocument, to be known as a license, traffic districts, as against the 39 traffic and this will cover every class of vehicle. districts, to coincide with the 14 police dis· However, I explained on the introductor) tricts of the State. Within each traffic dis stage of the Bill that it is proposed to mn kc trict there is an inspector of police, who for greater safety on the road by having a will be the district superintendent of traffic in special test made of drivers of certain vehicles. the particular area. In addition, there will be At the present time a person who is author· a superintendent of traffic in every police ised to drive, say, a baby car can immediatch station in Queensland, and it will be pos go down the street and drive a 5-ton truck. sible for registration and other matters now Anyone who has driven a motor-car must know carried out by the Main Roads Commission that it is a very difficult inatter to drive a and other facilities in Brisbane to be carried verv heavy truck. The driver must first be out in country districts where the police abl~ to get the touch or feel of hi· vehielc. stations are. What we are doing is making Therefore it is intended by the Bill that a the 14 police districts traffic districts instead person who proposes to drive a vehicle of of having 39 traffic districts. a capacity of 2 tons or more shall be tester1 specifically in that class of vehicle. Furthermore, a number of local authori ties control traffic in this State. Mr. Wanstall: That will be done by regulations~ Mr. Sparkes: You are taking it out of the hands of the local authorities altogether. Mr. JONES: Yes. Tmific Bill. [22 MARcH.] Traffic Bill. 2187 J\lr. Kerr: , The present holders of issue a warrant for the arrest of the offender_ :mthorities to operate will get licenses~ The offender then shall be arrested, and brought before the court for the purpose of Mr. JO~ES: Yes. Everyone will agree the determination of the original charge. that a spemal test should be applied to persons who propose to operate big vehicles with I pointed out on the initiatory stage of the heavy loads. It is more difficult to drive such Bill that over the past 12 months the drunken a vehicle than the ordinary motor-car. We are drivers who did not forfeit the.ir bail and 'loing this in the interests of safety on the appeared in court to answer the charge laid road and not with the idea of trying to against them were about one-third of the total h~mper people o:x: inconvenience them in any number arrested. My main objection to the way. L1censes w1ll be current for 12 months present procedure is this: actually the watch from the date of issue and will be issued at house-keeper becomes a magistrate because lie :ill police stations in Queensland. determines the bail. In other words, when a man is arrested he says, ''·when he becomes One of the most important parts of the sober I will allow him out on £10 bail.'' Bill is that dealing with a drunken driver In other words, the watchhouse·keeper be This subject has been considered by select comes the magistrate in the majority of cases {"ommittees in all parts of the world from wherein the offender does not appear. Should time to time. A few days ago I read the the watchhouse-keeper determine the amount report of a select committee set up by the of bail to be £20 the arrested man pays it. House of Lords to deal with traffic matters The point is that he actually inflicts the in England in 1939. Some of the most able penalty. That should not he so. I have legal men in England were selected and they always maintained that men released on bail went very fully il!-to the matter. They on such a charge should be compelled to approached the sub;)ect from many angles. appear in court. In some instances the One phase of that report appealed to me. I arrested man has no money on him and con propose to read it to hon. members at a later sequently is brought before the magistrate stage. when a conviction is recorded. His offence is 'rhe ~ill makes it an offence for any person no worse than that of the man who was who wh1le under the in:fl.uence of drink drives released on bail and does not appear in court. a motor vehicle, tram, train, or vessel or who There have been men who have been arrested orcupies the driving seat of a moto~ vehicle two and three times for having been drunk nnd attempts to put that vehicle in motion, in charge of a motor vehicle, released on bail, or _who attempts to put in motion a tram, and forfeited their bail, and avainst whom no tra1n, or vessel. .. Some may ask why the Bill conviction has been recorded. With the pass me~tions the word ''train.'' Occasionally ing of this Act persons arrested for being trams cross our roads and it is necessary that drunk when in charge of a vehicle must appear we should have control of them in that in court. If they do not a wan·ant will be respect. That also applies with respect to issued for their arrest and they will be com n vessel. A vessel might ply for hire on a pelled to appear. 1·iver and if the driver in charge is under the JUr. Luckins: Their bail can be for in:fl.uence of liquor, surely there should be feited but they will be compelled to appear some authority to enable the police to go also. n board ,~he vessel and arrest him, particularly :1s the nves of the passengers are in danger .. ~Ir. JONES: Their bail will be for )fr. Sparkes: Under that provision have feited and a warrant will be issued for their the police power to go onto the Sydney mail arrest. train and arrest a driver? Mr. Kerr: The watchhouse-keeper will still fix the amount of bail for these offen Mr. JONE,S: No, I said power to go on n train crossing a road. In some towns ders~ trains run along the street. If a drunken Mr. JONES: That is so at present and driver is in charge of a train travelling along will be in the future. The present position is a street the police will have power to board a person may forfeit his bail. He then may that train and arrest him. receive a notice from the Commissioner of Mr. Nicklin: Have they power to arrest Police to show cause why his licence should not a drunken train-driver travelling along a be dealt with. The Commissioner determines road~ the period for which his licence shall be sus pended. It may be for three months, or six Jir. JONES: Yes. This part of the Bill months, or for whatever period the Commis applies generally to trams, trains, and sioner may determine is fair and proper under trolley buses that run along a road. The the circumstances. pena.!ty provided for a drunken driver is a Personally I have never thought this a maximum £100 fine or imprisonment for satisfactory method of dealing with it. I six months or both; think there should be something that is auto The Bill also provides that if a person is matic and it should not be left to the Com arrested for being in charge of a motor miSSIOner. Queensland is the only state in vehicle, tram, train, trolley bus, or vessel and the Commonwealth where this rule applies. is released on bail but does not appear in It might interest hon. members to know that rourt at the time set down for the hearing although some may think that what we are of the charge laid against him the bail shall doing in this legislation is rather drastic, as be forfeited and on the charge being sub a matter of fact we are not going as far as stantiated by oral evidence tlie court shall they have gone in many other States. Take 2188 Traffic Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Traffic Bill. New South Wales. There we find that the going on and be in a position to give a permit disqualification is automatic on conviction, so they can have men on the job to control one year if there has been no conviction it and see, whatever the event may be, that during the previous period of five years, and it is carried on as it should be and without three years if the offender was previously danger to the public. convicted within a period of five years. The question of motor-cyclists is a matter In Victoria there is automatic cancellation that we hear and read much about; it is and no further licence except by permission one of the main traffic problems today, an In connection with these figures I would force. It is true that, where congestion is mention that it will be found that drunken greater, accidents, though more frequent, drivers do not account for a very big pro are usually less severe, but on the other portion of the number of accidents attributed hand the number of accidents is automatic-. to motor-cars. It is found that for the ally reduced as congestion disappears. The period of 10 years, 1, 798 accidents were reduction in severity where the speed lim~t attributed to drunken drivers-persons is imposed is due not to the speed lim1t under the influence; and in these there were but to the fact that high speeds cannot he 74 deaths and 1,040 persons were injured. reached in congested traffic. This shoulrl This is a very small proportion of the total not be adduced as an argument for the number of accidents, over 78,000, that I re-imposition of a universal speed litnit. referred to. The Committee are of opinion that such Accidents attribute:d to excessive speed a policy would unreasonably retard pro having regard to conditions number 3,082, gress. The prPff'r to rely on the improve in which there 1vcre 270 deaths and 2,618 ment of roads nnd vehicles nnd on tlw 1vere injured. Speed and mechanically education of road users. A universal specrl defective vehicles were responsible for a limit was a doubtful remedy in the pn 't greater number of accidents, deaths, and and was almost impossible to enforce. Tt injuries than the drunken driver. would now he still more difficult of enforce ment.'' lUr. Aikens: Speed would be the chief factor. Here again speed is a matter that will have to be dealt with undeT the Tegulations. It will haYe to receive careful consideration lUr. JONES: That is true. I have had discussions on this legislation with members and common sense will have to be applied. of the R.A.C.Q., who pointed out to me that Another impOTtant principle in the Bill is when speed on the open road is too low it that which compels the occupier of garages sometimes becomes a menace. I quite agree oT other pTemises IYheTe motor vehicles arc with that view and I think hon. members, repaired to keep a record of such repairs, thL· particularly those who drive motor-cars, will purpose being to help the police in the event agree too. of accidents. It will apply principally to They will agree that on the open road the such people as hit-run motorists who may modern-car can slip along at 45 to 50 miles knock someone down and perhaps dent n an hour and it is quite comfortable travelling. mudguard or smash a headlight and who That would not be excessive speed on the immediately rush to a garage in some out open road. of-the-way place to get their vehicle repairer1. All we are asking the proprietors of these In New South Wales they have a limit of premises to do is keep a record of work done ."30 miles an hour in built-up areas and 50 so that they will be able to tell the pohcE' miles an hour on the open road. In Queens that car nui11beT so-and-so was in last night land we have a limit of 30 miles an hour in and so-and-so was done to it. The fact that built-up areas and 40 miles an hour on the the police could learn what work had been open road, and what 1ve are doing in Queens done on certain cars might give them the land conforms to the practice of most other rlue to the car responsible for an accidect. States except New South vVale8. In South Australia it is 25 miles an hour in built-up When I was dealing with this question on areas and 40 miles an hour on the open road. the initiation, the Lender of the Opposition 1 think hon. members will agree that eommo1: referred to the necessity for registration of sense must be applied to this quesiton. motor garages. What I think he had m mind was the TegistTation of garages from On one or two occasions I have referred the point of view of mechanical work done to the committee that was set up by the in those gnTagcs. 'fhat is not covered ll:v House of Lords. This is what that com this Bill althoufl'h hon. members will know mittee had to say on the question of speed that pTo~ision i~" m a de for the registration limits- - of garages. "Principle of speed limit must be The reason for that provision is that at retained. the present time 1re have a number of ''The Committee consider that the prin machinery inspectors in various ~en~res ~f ciple of a speed limit must be retained. the State-not cYerv centre-and 1t IS then 'rhere are many places where it will also duty to examine vehicles and give a certifi be essential. It should not, however, be cate of roml-wOTthiness. It probably will be imposed except where it is necnssary. The necessary in some centres where there are Committee hope that, with the improve no inspectors of machinery to authorise some ment of roads and vehicles and the better reputable garages to give the necessary ceT education of road users, this restriction tificates. will have to be employed more and more rarely.'' Mr. Hiley: Does that not apply only to The Committee also said-. trufks and not to cars~ ''It is, in the opinion of the Committee, Mr. JONES: No. There is an obligation a mistake to attribute the majority of on eveTy person to see th~t his brakes are road accidents to reckless driving or to in order and that sort of thmg. the conduct of the so-called 'road-hog,' for the greatest number of accidents occur Mr. Hiley: It is not policed? (Govern in areas where a speed limit is already in ment interjections.) 2Hl0 Tra.ffic Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Traffic Bill. Ir. JONES: There is an obligation on problems of modern times is the control every person to see that his brakes are tested. of traffic and the reduction of traffic 'l'he regulation is intended mainly to make accidents and loss of life that takes place on provision for the setting aside of certain the roads all too frequently. This problem 1·eputable garages to giYe certificates of road has been brought about by the really amazing worthiness. development in the internal-combustion engine. Those are the main points that emerge The great majority of us in this Chamber from the Bill. Hon. members have had an remember the time when the first motor-car or;portunity of perusing it and I believe that. came on the road. That will give some indica !'enerally speaking, it will be agreed that tion of the amazing development in this con it is a genuine attempt to do something to nection over a comparatively few short years. <·onsolidate the traffic laws and to bring thpm We have to admit that the development in up to date and, fmthermore, it will help in fast-moving traffic is by no means finished, ,~.ombating the enormous toll of the ron d. that we are on the threshold of further Pedestrians too have an obligation in this development in the jet engine and the possible rt·gard and whilst the Road Safety Council development of improved propelling power. .and other bodies interested in the education We all realise the need for stringent yet simple of the public from the point of view of regulations to deal with road traffic. road usage arc doing a good job, I helirn• T 1'P J.finister said that an honest attempt that the only law quite a number of people bad l>cen made to deal with this problem and l;r;•Jw is being pulled up by a policeman and I agree that that is so. No-one can say that s ('fJken to and in some cases prosecuted. this is not a genuine attempt to deal with After all, to a great extent, the public this particularly sticky problem. I have no 1t: ve to be educated and I think the question quarrels whatever with the principles of the of road courtesy comes into the question pos Bill but some of its details call for close sibly more than anything else. A gentleman scrutiny and possibly it will be necessary to w'w had recently been in England told me move amendments in Committee. I propose to t bat he was astounded when travelling (1enl with some of those points no -1 and I through England by motor-car to note the trust that the Minister will not rush the Bill degree of courtesy practised by drivers on into the Committee stage at least for a day th; road. It ·was most pronounced comr>arcd or two so that hon. members on this side r;ith that exhibited by drivers in Australia. of' the Rouse may have an opportunity of T ·heard the same comment from other considering his replies to some of the points -;ources_ that we may raise. M:r. Plunkett: Those truck-drivers are I believe the Bill will have an effect for eonrteous chaps, you knmY. good in traffic control in the State because in Mr. JONES: You would need an army the first place it removes the anomaly of of police to police many of our roads. I ha.-e divided control. The Minister has pointed out had the misfortune to get behind some truck that at the present time traffic is controlled by drivers for many miles and they keep to the the police and by some local authorities and as a result, very often chaotic conditions ('entre of the road and ~'ou cannot get round devplop. Now we shall have single control, them. We cannot have a policeman on everv which will remove many of the anomalies that road in the State but I believe the aproacb new exist. The consolidation of the traffic we are making to this legislation will heln law will lead to simplification, particularly in mu~eri~lly. Eventually we may find that th"P traffic control. The proposal that the traffic le_lpslatwn does not meet every contingencY law should be administered by the Commis thLt will arise, but the powers to make reO'~ sioner of Police and his oflicero: is a wise lations are wide and most of the proble~s move. Traffic is handled mostly by the police associated with traffic today will be met by and they are best fitted to deal with many of the Act and the regulations issued under it. the problems associated with traffic and traffic Tt is necessary that we should have wide powers to make regulations. by-laws. It is our intention to proclaim sections of It is interesting to note that a great deal the Act as we are able to do so; the whole of trouble has been taken in framing the of it will not be proclaimed immediately on definitions in the Bill. For instance, it pro its passage because it will take some iittle vides for all types of vehicles and anything time to take over traffie matters from local that looks like a vehicle and moves on the "u thorities. road. It deals with all vehicles, including trains, trams, trolley buses, tractor engines Hon. members will agree, I think, that the Uill generally is acceptable. It is one to which and even ves~cls plying for hire. we have given a great deal of consideration. There is a necessity for such a wide defini I discussed the matter with members of the tion. If we are going to have control of R.A.C.Q. They wanted to know what matters traffic and adequate control of safety measures had been covered and how they would operate in regard to it, it is essential that we should lmt generally speaking they seemed to think deal with every type of vehicle that is likely it was a genuine attempt to do something. to come within the ambit of this Bill. The I feel that when the Act is brought into effect police set-up makes it ideal for handling this i! will prove to be a useful measure. traffic problem. We have 14 police districts, which have created quite workable areas for .Mr. NICKLIN (Murrumba-Leader of traffic control, and the police officers in those the Opposition) ( 7.56 p.m.) : I think that all areas will have various duties and obligations lwn. members agree that one of the greatest in the administration of this Bill. Traffic Bill. [22 MARCH. Traffic Bill. I want firstly to touch on the principle of !lr. Jones: It is in the present Act. licensing, namely, the issue of licences to drivers of motor vehicles as well as the issue Mr. NICKLIN: But this general penalty of learner's permits for those learning to for these offences is also provided drive vehicles. I agree entirely with minor offences, such as the failure to simplification of procedure whereby give a correct traffic signal or present certificate of competency and motor vehicle without a number, or emmetnw ority to are combined into one licence, like that. I that when the Minister which now be issued in lieu of the comes to issue regulations he will make documents as formerly. some provision in regard to the penalties for There are one or two minor offences, and limit the fine for with the issue of licences. offences to less than the maximum provided should like to raise. One' the gereml penalty. one. An a of the first be made drivers. police officer in a district. understood, Mr. some reason or known only 1vhen I con1n1ent on the officer he refuses to issue a licence, with drunken drivers in can do under this Bill, the only advocate remission of the wch a person has is to the ComJniE;si Mr. Jones: He did not arrest hin1. go to sleep until they were in a fit state to drive home. Under this Bill, would that man Mr. Sparkes: He did not arrest him, be drunk in charge of a motor carf but he made him walk a line. Mr. Mann: Certainly. llr. NICKLIN: Under the present lUr. Sparkes: Even if he parked it in T·raffic Bill that policeman could have arrested his backyard' that hon. member and that hon. member would Mr. Barnes: No. have had no redress whatever. I repeat that there should be some reasonable safeguard Mr. NICKLIN: I am dealing with the f'OI· the abuse of police authority in this question of cars on the road at the present respect. I suggest that if a man is arrested time. on a charge of drunkenness he should have the right to be examined by a medical prac lUr. Copley: What is your definition of titioner, who would determine whether or not ''in charge''~ I! e is drunk. Mr. NICKLIN: I should like to know Mr. Jones: They do that now. what it is. I am not in charge of the Bill. The Minister is in charge of it and I should Mr. NICKLIN: They may do it but like him to tell us exactly what is meant by there is nothing in this Bill to say that they ''in charge of a motor car. '' shall do it when a man asks for it. Another point is that in the provision deal Mr. Jones: It would not be practical. ing with drunken drivers and drunken drivers A man may be arrested in Burketown or in charge of motor cars are the words, ''on Urandangie, where there is no doctor. a road or elsewhere.'' What is meant by ''elsewhere'' in that provision~ Mr. NICKLIN: I know there can be Mr. Power: In a park. anomalies, but is it not far better to ensure, having a little safeguard such as that, Mr. NICKLIN: It may be in a man's no innocent man is arrested W Certainly paddock or somewhere of that kind. there should be some provision whereby the Mr. Barnes: They have no jurisdiction driver arrested on a charge of being under over you in your own yard. the influence will receive some protection. ''Under the influence" is not defined. It is Mr. NICKLIN: Yes, they have. For to be determined by the arresting constable. example, a man may be starting up his Mr. Jones: Can you or anybody else tractor or even be on his tractor in his own paddock. If it happens to be a hot day determine "under the influence"~ and he has a glass of beer and a police officer happens to come round after agricul Mr. NICKLIN: No, I cannot, and that tural returns or something like that he could is why I insist that there should be some say to this man, "You are under the influ safeguard whereby a medical man should ence,'' and he could arrest him straight npply medical tests to determine whether such away. a man is or is not under the influence of liquor. In this respect I suggest that the Mr. Power: You have a very poor aTTested person should have the right to ask opinion of the officer if you believe that. for a medical officer to examine him to deter Mr. Barnes: Some of them are lower mine his condition and it should be the duty than you are. of the arr()sting police officer to make every reasonable endeavour to comply with such a Mr. NICKLIN: I am not saying that it request; and the failure of the officer to do would happen, but it could happen under the so should be taken into eonsideration by the Bill. eou:rt when dealing with the charge. Mr. POWER: I rise to a point of order. l'llr. Power: What would be done in a I interjected to the Leader of the Opposi town where there was no doctor~ tion that he had a very poor opinion of a police officer if he took the view he seems Mr. NICKLIN: That may happen, but to have, judging by the speech he was mak it is quite possible that there are other means ing. The hon. member for Bundaberg said, that could be suggested-other evidence to ''They are as low as you are.'' That remark corroborate the opinion of the police officer in is offensive to me and I ask for its with this respect. After all, most police officers drawal. would appreciate some corroborative evidence to decide whether a man was under the Mr. BARNES: I did not make that influence, especially if he should be involved statement and I will not withdraw it, but if in serious motor accident. he does make the correct statement I will withdraw it. We find in the Bill, too, the phrase ''when a person is in charge of a motor car under Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I was listening the influence of liquor.'' Exactly what does and I heard the hon. member use the worf! ' 'in charge of a motor car'' mean W ''lower.'' For example, there have been conscienti Mr. BARNES: That .is correct. ous men who have had a drink or two, who have had what they considered to be too Mr. SPEAKER: Under the circutu many, and they have parked themselves in stances, I think it is unparliamentary and ..r the back seat of a motor car and decided to ask the hon. member to withdraw it. Traffic Bill. [22 MARcn.] Trajjic BiU. 2193 Mr. BARNES: The statement I made by the disqualification of such driver even if he way of interjection was that some of the is not found guilty or if the charge against policemen were lower than he is. That is true, him is dismissed. There may be a reason for and I have no intention of withdrawing it. that-- Mr. SPEAKER: That is very offensive Mr. Jones: It is in the prese.nt law; it to the Minister, the hon. member for is nothing new. Baroona, and I ask the hon. member for JUr. NICKLIN: But that does not make Bundaberg to withdraw it. it right. There may be a reason for that provision and I hope the Minister will tell Mr. BARNES: Mr. Speaker, I refuse to withdraw it. us the reason. I appreciate that an instance like this may crop up: a man may suffer from Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Again I ask the a temporary blackout because of health hon. member for Bundaberg to withdraw that reasons and become involved in a traffic remark. iueident-- llfr. BARNES: I have already said that I Mr. Jones: His eyesight might be "·ill not withdraw it. defective. Mr. NICKLIN: . . and when he is NAMING 01<' MEMBER. ('harged the presiding judge or justice may recognise this fact and say that he has not JU1·. SPEAKER: Order; I am reluctantly committed a criminal offence and dismiss the forced to name the hon. member for Bunda charge against him, saying that in his own l>erg for defying the authority of the Chair. intnesb; the man would be better off if dis qualified from driving in the future. Hon. E. lU. HANLON (Ithaca-Premier) Mr. Jones: The provision is not mis (8.19 p.m.): I hope the hon. member will not usl'(l at all. eompel me to move a motion that will debar him from attending the House during this llr. NICKLIN: I noted it when looking important session. I would urge that he at the provisions of the Bill. There may be i·arry out the instructions of Mr. Speaker and quite good reasons where disqualification withdraw the remark he made. It is neces might be applied where a conviction is not sary that all hon. members of this Parlia recorded against the person concerned. ment obey the call of the Chair and be bound b)· it. . Thn<· is another provision in the Bill that <'Prtainl~- nec·•ls some explanation hecau"e it :Mr. BARNE1S: In deference to you, says that where a man is convicted under ~h. Premier, I withdra>Y it. nnother~ Act-not the Traffic Act, mind you he may be deprived of the use of his licence to drive a car. That is a pretty wide pro TRAFFIC BILL. vision as it deals not only with an offence SECOllD READING-RESUMPTION OF DEBATE. under this proposed Act but an offence under some other Act. Debate resumed on Mr. J ones's motion- ' 'That the Bill be now read a second Mr. J ones: Dangerous driving is time.'' covered by the Criminal Code. llr. NICKLIN: I know it is covered by Mr. NICKLIN: I had virtually finished the Code, as well, but this is a very wide with the question of protection of the man provision. It might not be abused but it is who may be charged with being under the a very wide provision opening the road to influence of liquor whilst in charge of a car abuse. Probably we may be able to do or driving a car, and I think all hon. members what we are endeavouring to do by means will agree, if they look at the provisions that are not open to possible abuse. dealing with this question, that there is some need for clarification of it and there is need lUr. Hanlon: There is a discretionary for the protection of the possibly innocent power in the court. offender. I repeat that if a man is guilty of Mr. NICKLIN: There is a saving pro the offence of driving a car or being in vision of appeal where the decision is given by charge of a car whilst under the influence of a court but there is no appeal when a decision liquor he should be dealt with with the full is given by the Commissioner of Police when rigour of the law but there should be some deanng with licences. protection to prevent any innocent man from I propose now to deal with the provision being wrongly dealt with under these pro relating to hiring without a licence. For visions. the life of me, I cannot understand why a There is one excellent provision in regard person should not be allowed to advertise for to dealing with the licences of drivers who a companion to accompany him in a motor may have offended by careless or dangerous car on a trip, sharing the expense or going driving or other undesirable actions on the free. A person may be driving a car from road. The provision is for their automatic Brisbane to North Queensland, and it is not disqualification for various periods according very enjoyable having to drive long distances to the seriousness of the offence but there by yourself. In the past we have seen is a power that goes a little bit further than advertisements in the paper by someone who, that, whereby a judge or a justice may order for instance, says that he is driving a car 1949-4B 2194 Traffic Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Traffic Bill. from Brisbane to North Queensland and is ~Ir. Jesson: You are trying to make prepared to take a passenger who will share loopholes to help people to evade the law. the expense or even go with him. That is now prohibited by the Bill, and what is Mr. NICKLIN: If the hon. member who worse, the newspaper that accepts the adver interjects has as great a regard for the law tisement is liable for inserting it. That as I have, perhaps he may be better for it. seems to me to be a silly provision to put in He cannot read into any remarks I make the Bill. As I said, I see no reason why a that I want to create loopholes so that people man should be prevented from advertising might evade the law. He should look at these for a friend to go with him, but the worst matters in a common-sense way, and see that feature is that the newspaper will be liable the powers are written into legislation in a for inserting the advertisement. common-sense way in order that they cannot Mr. I\Iaher: It is interference with the be turned against a completely innocent man. liberty of the subject. Every need exists for some qualification in regard to the period provided in the Bill in 1lr. NICKLIN: That is the trouble with respect of which a driver involved in an acti much of our legislation. We endeavour to dent must report. bring about efficient ancl effective laws, yet There are no material alterations in the we insert stupid provisions such as this, for which there is no rhyme or reason. And, as )Hlwcr,, :mil duties of police charged with the administration of this Bill from what they the hon. member for West Moreton inter already have under the Act which it will jects, it introduces an element of interference replace-with the one exception, tha~ the with the freedom of the individual. It will Bill gives the police power to arrest without be particularly hard for the Minister to a warrant for minor offences. There is no justify such a provision in what is other objection to giving the police, in fact they wise a very sensible Bill. must have power to anest a driver without Mr. Jones: I can give you an instance warrant should he be under the influence of in which a man in Brisbane advertised for liquor or accused of dangerous driving, or passengers and took five to Sydney, charging who commits any of the more serious offences each of them £3 10s. presnilJed · but when unlim:tcd po\Yers are given to n{ake an arrest without warrant for An Hon. ~Iember: What is wrong with even minor offences then there must be some that~ need for scrutiny in the Committee stage to lllr. NICKLIN: If the passengers are see whether this power cannot be toned down prepared to pay that amount, that is no a little. reason why they should not. The Minister JUr. Aikens: You swallowed everything is not going to stop that practice, because in the anti-picketing laws. the owner of the car could make a personal canvass for people to go with him. Mr. NICKLIN: There is no analogy A very extensive part of the Act deals whatsoever between this Bill and the anti with traffic incidents, in other words, acci picketing laws or any sim~lar legislation that dents on roads. We are changing the word ~yas passed to meet a drastic emergency. This ''accident'' to ''incident,'' and in the main Bill aims at dealing with the traffic problems the provisions dealing with incidents arc for many years to come and traffic situatioi:s necessary. However, once again, there is a that require drastic remedies. W_hen the :xntl tendency to go a little bit too far in regard picketing law was passed a senous positiOn to the obligations placed upon the person had arisen in this Rtate and it had to ],,, who may be involved in an incident. A met by drastic legislation. That was done. person involved in an incident :nmst I approved of it, as the majority of hon. report such a happening, giving all particu members did. lars, the number of the car, the damage to the car and so on, within twenty-four hours, ~Ir. SPEAKER: Order! There is no or be sub.iect to a drastic penalty. The r0om for discussion on the anti-picketing law Bill does not take into account what mav at this stage. be the condition of the person involved iil the incident. He may be in a bac1 physical lllr. NICKLIN; I myself am not going shape as a result of it. He may be suffer to deal with it. ing from concussion. Nevertheless, that does not prevent him from being liable for One other provision I want to touch on. is \l.Ot reporting the incident under pain of that relating to traffic hazards. The police severe penalty. are to have very wide powers to deal with traffic problems. 'l'hey have power to di>"ert ~Ir. Jones: A period of 24 hours is a pretty generous one in which to report the traffic if necessary and generally to handle incident. this subject. Possibly this part of the Bill does not adequately deal with a number ?f ~Ir. NICKLIN: That is all right if a traffic hazards with which we are faced m man is hale and hearty and able to report the areas that have been built up and which we incident, but there is no differentiation under may have to face in the ft;.ture if wro1~g this Bill between that class of man and the town-planning features are mvolved. Wlll man who is a cot case. I quote this as an there be any liaison between the police, who example of an endeavour to go too far in this will control the operations of this Bill, and legislation and in not treating such matters local governing bodies regarding the possible in a common-sense way. creation of future traffic hazards~ Traffic Bill. [22 MARCH.] Traffic Bill. 2195 I have in mind an instance in which a -when one could, for 6d. or ls., buy a com local authority, in an endeavour to improve plete copy of the Traffic Act and all regula traffic conditions in a certain area, decided tions up to elate. That was a great boon to on an amendment of its own town plan, motorists and those who had to know the which, if carried out, would in the opinion law. Unfortunately, the existing Traffic Acts of many people create an additional traffic and regulations have been out of print for hazard in that town. The police are respon a number of years and it is impossible to sible for the adminstration of traffic and get an up-to-elate copy now. the control of any traffic hazards; and there should be some liaison between them and the JUr. Jones: We are printing a brochure local authorities in regard to this question. that will be available to all drivers when they get their licence. }lr. J ones: The Bill makes provision :for that. lUr. WANSTALL: We suggest, even if you make a charge sufficient to cover the :ur. NICKLIN: I am glad it does; I was cost, it is very necessary to include the Act not quite certain whether it did or not. I and the Regulations. believe it should and I am glad the Minister It should be made available for purchase has given us that assurance because, as all by the public at police stations throughout hon. members will appreciate, if the police the State. Do not leave it only to the Gov have to control traffic thev should at least ernment Printer for distribution by him. haw 'ome say as to the co~1clitions that mny After all, only a limited number of people l'l'eate traffic hazards and make futul'e cliffi know these publications can be got from the l'ulties for them in the handling of traffic. Government Printer. If the Act and regula As I said at the outset, I believe the Bill tions, and the highway code are all incorpor in the main will deal aclequntely and effec r;1.ed in the publication and it is made avail tively with the traffic problems of this State; able to the public at a reasonable charge, it but I again emphasise that it requires safe will be of great service and will help towards guan1s to meet the contingencies I have greater road safety. mentioned-the wide powers .given to the 1\Ir. Jesson: They could charge 2s. 6d. ( 'ommissioner of Police in recrarcl to the for it when you get your license. issue of licences and the powers "of the police iu dealing with drunken drivers or drivers 1\Ir. WAN STALL: Nobody would object under the influence, and also the powers of to paying 2s. 6cl. for it; I am sure it would the police to arrest without warrant in respect produce greater road safety. to minor offences. Hmvever, as I said befol'e, these are matters that can be dealt with So far as the provisons of the Bill that adequately in the Committee staae, and I tighten up penalties are concerned, I am all hope_ the Minister_ will give us a f:;w- days to in accord with them but there is one direction c·ons1der these pomts before we get to that in which I do not think the Minister has gone stage. far enough and that is in the necessity for periodical tests of drivers who hold licenses Jir. WANSTALL (Toowong) (8.38 p.m.): but who have not committed anv offence lu common with the hon. the Leader of the against the law. Under the prese!1t system Opposition I agree geneTal!.v with the leading and under the system envisagea in this Bill ,,-IIIc·tples of this Bill, particularly those that there will be no necessity for a person to go c·an fairly be said to fall within that part back and be tested again once he has obtained of the title which calls it a Bill to consolidate a driver's licence. He gets an automatic and amend the law Telating to vehicular and renewal year after year on payment of a fee, other traffic. My quarrel with the Bill falls unless the police happen to initiate some under the rest of the title, ''and for other action against him. It would be desirable to [Jllrposes. '' have periodical tests for licences under legis lation such as this so that the perfectly law So far as the co11solidation provision is abiding citizen whose faculties may be failing c·oneerned and the amending provisions-the in such a way that it would not be safe for tightening up of the penalties and the crea him to have charge of a motor vehicle could tion of better machinery for enforcing safety be dealt with. Provisions could be made along on our roads or tending to create safetv oi1 those lines for the betterment of the Bill. our roads, I am in entire agreement with the JUr ••Tones: In South Australia there is Bill. The principle of consolidating legi.>la no test at all and they have a very low tion and reprinting it in the form of a· new accident rate. Bill is one that will earn the commendation of every citizen, because if there is one 1\Ir. WAN STALL: I appreciate that. I lmglJear that haunts the citizens it is the think the Minister will agree that such a s~·stem of patching up and amending leaisla system would weed out a number of people tion in such a way that one has to ~hase whose faculties have deteriorated to :ruch an from Gazette to Gazette and from sessional extent that it is not safe for them to be in ,-olume to sessional volume to find out what ~ harge of a vehicle. the law is as it affects our daily lives. I nm pleased that a completely new ship is Mr. Plunkett: Why do you want to weed being launched iu the form of the present them out if they have not caused any trouble~ Bill. I urge the Minister to put into opera tion again what used to be the custom nt lUr. WAN STALL: It is not the person t lH? Brish::me Traffic Office-T do not know who has not caused any trouble but the 11 het her it applied at country police stations person who is likely to cause trouble that the 2196 Traffic BiU. [ASSEMBLY.] !'ra}fic Bill. Bill strikes at. The Bill is designed to make is not fit to be piloting this Bill through the for s~fe conditions on the roads generally. House. The worst aspect of it is that he is That 1s one direction in which I suggeS This provision that the Minister is asking ~Ir. SPEAKER: Order! I will not allow the Rous~ to w:ite into. this. Bill is, I .repeat, a discussion of the anti-picketing law. the most mcred1bly stup1d p1ece of leg1slation I h~ve ever . enc Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I do not think of the Bill is surely aware of acts where dis there is any need to repeat what has already ciplinary action was needed against police been clearly pointed out to the House by the constables found drunk whilst on duty. The Leader of the Opposition. Bill permits a policeman drunk on duty to drive a motor car and it says that he is not Mr. WAN STALL: I am pointing out committing an offence. Surely that is a how wide this power is and the offences to provision to which hon. members of this House which it applies. I have no objection to its should have their attention drawn~ applying to those serious offences but it :1pplies to everything that is made a~ offence I will now mention some trifling offences under this Bill. Let Parliament consider included in the Bill that are covered by the some of the things that it is making offences power of arrest without warrant provided the under this Bill. For driving without a licence person is found committing the offence. I you can be arrested without a warrant. For cite the refusal to obey the direction of a driving under the influence you can be arres policeman, driving on a closed road, failing ted without a warrant and I have no quarrel to produce a licence when called upon, the with that, nor with arrest without a warrant garage man who does not keep a record of for carelessly, negligently or recklessly driv repairs to motor vehicles, the person who ing or driving at a dangerous speed or with drops a tack or glass bottle on the road-- out due care and attention or reasonable con :Mr. Aikens: And he should be shot. sideration for other persons. Any person who organises a race or speed trial is creating Mr. WAN,STALL: He can be arrested an offence and is liable to be arrested with without warrant. And here is the most out warrant. Any person who evades pay serious point. Every offence created by the ment of a fare can be arrested without war regulations, which Parliament has not yet rant, and the housewife who gets on a tram seen, is an offence under the Act by virtue of that has 110 passengers on it can be arrested the definition clause and Clause 45. Every without warrant for the offence. one of those regulation offences will be :m Mr. Aikens: And all the kids on the offence under the Act and if a person is tram. found committing any one of them the police can arrest him without warrant. If members ]}lr. W ANSTALL: I do not know whether of Parliament want to pass legislation of that the kiddies would be held responsible for the kind, I do not want to be a party to it and I legal consequences of their actions. However, propose to vote against it unless such provi to continue, a person who fails to report an sions are drastically limited. I think a incident or an accident and a person who-- considerable number of members on both sides of the House will admit that they Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Might I suggest have the same view about it. to the hon. member for Toowong that he is The next principle I wish to discuss is the inclined to adopt Committee arguments in averment provisions because it is not so very this stage of the Bill~ I ask hon. members long ago that I heard the present Premier to avoid Committee discussions at this stage. agreeing with criticism directed from this The opportunity to examine the Bill in detail side of the House against the indiscriminate will come in the Committee stage. use of the averment provision in prosecution~. Mr. WAN STALL: I think you will Ever since those criticisms were ackno"· agree, Mr. Speaker, that I endeavour to keep ledged by the PremieJ' we have found a very within the rules of this House as well as healthy sign in the legislation going through anybody, but if I did not mention the pro this HouSie. Indeed we have seen a strictly visions on the second-reading stages I would limited use of the averment provision, so uot be permitted to discuss clauses that had limited that I have not found it necessary, already been discussed or those that had not except on one or two minor occasions, to been reached when we are in the Committee refer to the matter. However, in this Bill stage. It is necessary to illustrate my argu one of the outstamliug princip[eJS is the ment to point out the extremely wide powers averment provision covering every conceivable of arrest without warrant. These are serious type of offence wherein an element of proof matters, and surely hon. members are entitled is required. to know the extent of the powers of the Mr. Aikens: Prosecution by averment police. is always a shocking thing. A Minister interjected when the hon. member for West Moreton was speaking that Mr. WAN STALL: It is recognised in he had a poor opinion of the police. In the all democratic countries as being a very evil whole of my professional career, I have not and unnecessary provision and one that been guilty of slating the police in any way should be discouraged. at all. The majority of them are very fine Mr. Jones: All these averment clauses and decent citizens, but there are black sheep in the Bill are taken from existing legis amongst them and no hon. member can deny lation. that. Let me mention another principle of the Jir. WANS'fALL: That may be, but Bill. There is absolute indemnity for all mem somB of them are new, I believe. Most of bers of the Police Force on duty for all them may be taken from existing legislatio11. offences under the Bill. That includes the If I had been in here before I should have case of a drunken driver of a police vehicle bBen just as critical of them now as the when driving on duty. The Minister in charge Pre,mier was critical of them in 1944 and 2198 Traffic Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Traffic Bill. just as every democratic man should be very pounds. Is there any justification whatever eritical of them. Our country has grown up for enacting such a vicious discrimination on the tradition that a man is innocent until for the Crown on one side and the subject he is proved to be guilty. on the other~ Mr. Jones: Not one of the averment Not only is it a case of discrimination on vrovisions infringes that principle. the basis of the costs; there is discrimination even as to whether the person is entitled to get Mr. WAN STALL: I do not agree. I his costs against the Crown when he succeeds should like to red'er to one of them. in such an action. The ordinary rule is that costs follow the event. That is, if you win Mr. Jones: They relate mainly to or succeed in your action you recover the •locuments. costs. But under this principle which we are asked to enact, and which is an entirely 1\Ir. W ANSTALL: The averment pro new principle in the legislation of this State, Yisions are permitted in very many instances a successful litigant is not to get his costs to supply one of the essential elements whie:1 against the Crown unless the court approves is proof of the offence. That has been over both of the action, that is, the bringing of come by the use of the averment provision, the action, and the verdict of the jury. A which prevents anyone from being cross man recovers a verdict from a jury of examined in court on proof of the guilt of damages against a policeman, but he does the person charged to the extent of the aver not get an order for his costs unless the judge ment. Therein lies the real objection to the thinks the verdict is right. If the Crown wins nse of the averment provision-no-one can there is no such impediment. The Crown then cross-examine the averment. automatically gets its costs not on a party and-party basis but on a solicitor-and-client Mr. Jones: Do you suggest that the basis, which is a more generous scale. That Commissioner of Police should have to go to principle in this Bill has not been mentioned Mt. Isa to give formal evidence~ by the Minister. It is a very undesirable principle to enaet. ::tir. WAN STALL: No. I do not say that there is anything wrong with the recom Mr. Jones: You were not here when I mendations on the use of averments by the introduced it. House of Commons Committee on Ministerial Mr. WAN STALL: I know I was not Powers and I do not suggest that aYerments here then. I do not say that the hon. are always to be forbidden in all circu;ll gentleman did not mention it then, but I stances. There are certain cases in whicl1 do say he did not mention it tonight. there is little harm in allowing averment. Mr. Copley: All he is concerned about I come now to deal with a principle in the is his lawyer's costs. Bill that eallst for equally strong criticism and that is the abhorrent idea, which is Mr. WANSTALL: That interjection cherished by this Government, of placing indicates the condition which the inter on a pedestal and shielding and pro jector is in, berause it is not a case of a tecting that anachronism Crown privilege. lawyer's costs, it is a case of the client's We see it in the Bill in a wider form than costs. The client. has to pay the lawyer. I have ever se;en it before. In the Bill Crown The hon. member should know that. privilege is being enshrine-d and made un assailable. Let me refer to some cla.use.s in Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I ask hon. which it operates. There have been a number members to refrain from interjecting while of cases in recent years in which the police an hon. member is speaking. There will be have exceeded the authority given them by an opportunity for all hon. members to law. They have wrongly arrested citizens express their views on this important and have wrongly pre.ferred charges against measure. them. I know of one particularly glaring ease of a reputable citizen who, without a :Mr. WAN STALL: Lord He wart, who was blemish on his record, was found in a sta.te Lord Chief Justice of England, has written of collapse in one of the city streets. He was a book that is often quoted in this ChambN. picked up by a policeman, taken to t,he It is entitled, ''The New Despotism.'' It watchhouse and charged with drunkenness. has something to say on this principle of This highly reputable! citizen was a diabetic Crown privilege, which is so strongly opposed suffering from insulin slhock and he Wall/ able and criticised by hon. members on this side to prove it from medical evidence. He was of the Chamber in past years. This is what wrongly arrested. This vicious principle of he said when quoting from Professor Dicey, Crown privilege is e!nshrined in the Bill. If a high authority on constitutional law within such a man succee-ds in a charge made against the Empire- himself by the police he can recover only limited costs from the Crown but if the "With us every official, from the Prime Crown succeeds in winning the case the costs Minister down to a constable or a col can be sky-high. lector of taxes, is under the same responsi bility for every act done without legal The Crown's costs are taxed on a solicitor justification as any other citizen. The :md-client basis, whereas if the plaintiff reports abound with cases in which officials wins he gets his costs on a party-and-party have been brought before the courts and hasis, which is a considerably less generous made, in their personal capacity, liable to scale. It might represent hundreds of punishment, or to the payment of damages, Traffic Bill. [22 MARCH.] Traffic Bill. 2199 for acts done in their official character Jtir. WANSTALL: I criticised it in that hut in excess of their lawful authority. A Act too. Here is the principle; it does w ·; colonial governor, a secretary of state, a matter about its being in some other Act. military officer, and all subordinates, The principle is this: an official such as the though carrying out the commands of Commissioner holds >vithin the hollow of lns their official superiors, are as responsible baud the right at the present time to decide for any act which the law does not whether a person shall have a licence, whici1 authorise as is any private and unofficial may be his livelihood, and there is no safe person.'' guard of appeal from his decision. Tlw That is a statement on the constitutional Commissioner may make a mistake, the s~r,;e position that has been the cornerstone and ;,s the Minister or I or anybody else. foundation of our system of jurisprudence Mr. Jones: None of you knew it was in ever since the sun went down on the day the Act until tonight. Magna Charta was signed, but in this State it is gradually being whittled away. On JUr. W ANSTALL: That may be so. If more than one occasion, in Act after Act and the Minister's iHic>l'jection was literally true, Bill after Bill, an administrative set-up is it only reinforces the value of my argument, being erected of completely unjustifiable "·hich shows that even hon. members of tlns privilege. In this Bill we have reached the House can make mistakes. \Vho are they i o very summit of Crown privilege. In this say that the Commissioner will not make a Bill Crown privilege runs riot and the inno mistake~ cent citizen who may be wronged and Mr. Jones: It is not a new principle; recovers a verdict is to be deprived of his that is my point. ordinary costs unless the court sees eye to eye with the jury's verdict or agrees that the Mr. WAN STALL: It may be an old action should have been brought. principle but it is a particularly bad prin ciple. Whether I opposed it in the State 'rhere is another principle that must be Transport Bill or not I have opposed the criticised. I have referred to the one that implementation of that principle in relat_io_n provides a blanket exemption for officeTs of to licensing laws and various other admmr the Police Force acting in the execution of strative bodies set up since I have been lll their duty for an offence against the Act. I Parliament that have the right of conferring have no criticism to offer in regard to the or withholding licences. Whenever t~at application of that principle for fast driv principle croppei! up I haYe grappled wrt_h ing or reckless driving. I think there are it. I do not think it is right in a democratHo many circumstances in which the officer is country that any official-I do not care -:vho called upon to drive the vehicle recklessly he is and irrespective of his person and w:tlt in the administration of the law but there out criticism of him on a personal basrs can be no justification ~or permitting a should have the right of depriving a person of policeman who happens to be drunk in charge a licence that will enable him to earn a of a police car to escape from the conse living unless there is provided the safeguard quences of his default under this Act. I hope of an appeal to a competent tribunal from the Minister will gi,-e consideration to limit that decision. It is too readily open to ing that exemption, particularly in its appli abuse in the State and you can see it in caton to drunken drivers who happen to be operation in every one ~f the boards o_r com poli~emen. They can kill persons, the same missions that haYe the nght to grant hce;;c('', as ordinary citizens. and from which there is no appeal. The Leader of the Opposition referred to 'l'his is a law that affects a large body of another point, which concerns the contrast titizens. 1 can see that there are many cases between the two principles, one of which in which the Commissioner would rightly makes final the decision of the Commissioner make a decision not to renew a licence but' of Police not to renew a licence and the if there was one case in a hundred in which other of which admits an appeal from the he may make a "·rong decision and a grHYe decision of a judge to cancel or suspend a injustice ma.J be done, it is necessary to licence. If it is necessary to permit an lmve the right of appeal to correct that o11e appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal from case. the decision of a judge to cancel a licence, is That is all. In making criticism such _as there not a much stronger argument in favour this I am not suggesting that the C?mmis of permitting- an appeal from the decision of sioner for Police or the 'l'raffic Supermtend the Commissioner of Police~ I am sure the ent will wilfully discriminate against persons :Minister would not contend on the floor of or make things awkward for them or do . a the House that the Commissioner for Police wrong or an injustice, _b~t it is :wro~g m is in a better position to make up his mind principle to deprive a crtizen o~ hrs . hcence as to the necessity for the cancellation than without giving him a correspondmg nght ~f the judg-e who had heard the evidence and appeal. 'rhe strength of ~y argt~ment. rs exercised his judical discretion; yet we are seen in the very next clause m the Brll whwlt providing for an appeal from the decision of provides that where a Supreme Com~ judge the jui!g-e and none from the decision of the cancels such a licence appeal from hrs_ d.etl· Commissioner. si on can be made to the Court of Crnm:1;; l ltir. Jones: As a matter of fact, you Appeal. What stronger argument can I should know that the subject of the criticism advance for having a similar right of. al?peal you are putting- up is in the State Transport in the case of a decision of the Commrss1oner Act at the present moment. for Police~ 2200 Traffic Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Traffic Bill. I believe that the Minister will give d:lC I remember that in one case on which I eonsideration to the points raised this evening was before the court the police magistrate and endeavour, as the result of the criticism was 100 per cent. pro-policemen. He was so that has been offered, to improve this Bill, murh a policeman in this particular case because it certainly can be improved. It that on three occasions they objeded to n.y can be improved not only from the point of cross-examining on the grounds of its being view of safety to the public but from that of irrelevant. It was not. On three occasions I fairness and justice to the community. I objected on the grounds that their evidence emphasise again the very dangerous thing was irrelevant. He dismissed my objection Parliament is doing if it gives the right of and upheld them on each occasion. I might open arrest to every policeman in this State mention it was the first court day after the for the tiniest trifling offence under this Bill. Christmas and New Year holidays. This Parliament should never do that. If it The solicitors opened that morning at 9 finds it necessary to give an official, be it o'clock and the court at 10 o'clock. I asked policeman or anybody else, the right to arrest the court for an adjournment to seek legal a feliow citizen without the protection of a assistance and to be represented by a solicitor. justice's wanant, it should be only for the That court in particular, that "Yes-man" most drastic offences, for those that involve magistrate, refused me that honest, just appli danger to the public, and if it is a dan:,:er cation to be represented by a solicitor. for snch person to be at large or involves n risk that the person may not attend court. Knowing the police magistrate, and know In all except these offences the right of the ing his record for being a policeman as well British subject-the British citi' en, and I as a police magistrate, I decided to play still call him the British subject irrespective of ducks and drakes with him, and, boy, did I Mr. Calwell's Act-to immunity from open play ducks and drakes :vith him! . L finished arrest should remain inviolate. up with the police magistrate saymg to me, '' For your own information, in case you do Mr. BARNES (Bundaberg) (9.12 p.m.) : not know, you have the right to go in the I have a few woTCls to say against this Bill. witness box and give evidence in defence of At first I thought it was a very good Bill yourself." Naturally, with my experience of hut since I entered this Parliament I have law, I knew that. I said, "I have no inten been opposed to any law that reduces the tion of going into the witness box to defend status of the citizen. lt is a maxim in law myself, because this court is biased,'' and I that it is better that 99 gl!ilty men go free walked out of that court. But Magna Carta than that one innocent man should be con justice protected me by giving me the right victed. This Bill sets out to give a policeman of appeal. I walked out of the court, telling dictatorial power. He has the right to say the court it was biased, and went to the that a man is drunk and that is the end of it. Full Court and got my verdict against the The hon. member for Toowong, who has decision of the police magistrate, who heard jnst resumed his seat, quott'd an instance of the rest of the case ex-parte, and expenses a man being arrested for drunkenness wherea.c amounting to about £120. I forget what it was found he was a diabetic. 'There are the case was, as there were so many of numerous similar instances but because of them, but imagine what would have happened the lateness of the hom I will quote only to me if I had been charged with driving my one. A man was arrested in Brisbane for car under the influence of liquor if I came drunkenness but was dead a few hours later. before the same policeman and the same police The policeman in all sincerity thought he "as magistrate. Whack, off would go the head. drunk but that policeman was not a doetor No, Sir, I will not be a party to that sort of and not qualified to judge. Let us assume thing. I have had too much experience with 1hat that man did not die, but that he crooked policemen not to know what some of survived. He would have been arrested for them will do, and I certainly will not give heing drunk and would have had no right of those crooked policemen that power. appeal under this Bill. These are only two This legislation sets out that all pol~cemen instances of the manv that have occurred in are infallible. To say that any section of this State. " the people is infallible is ridiculous. Further Recently an accident occurred in Bunda more, it is ridiculous to say all policemen are berg. A man went to sleep driving his good, because there are good and bad in all car and knocked over an electric-light walks of life where you have a number of post in front of my house. He damaged the men. This legislation sets it up that all the e:•r badly. 'l'hey could have said he was policemen are good. I should hate to hear drunk. I was the first on the scene and what Inspector Osborne, Dan Larkin, or a picked him up and that man had not taken few others would say about me if they met one single drink, but they could have said me in the street in charge of a car after I he was drunk. If the policeman in that par had had a glass of liquor. ticular instance happened to be hostile to Coming to the good part of the Bill, I am that person he could haYe charged that person disappointed at its stopping at the Cobb and with drunkenness. Co. coach stage in making the maximum speed Now let me give my own experience with 40 miles an hour on an open road. I have some policemen. How many policemen would followed Ministers' cars to Southport, my have been only too happy to charge me with car following theirs, not to see what speed being drunk whereas in reality I might not they were doing but because they happened have had a drink! Imagine me allowing any to be driving at the same speed at which I Bill to pass through this Parliament robbing was, and they were doing 50 and 55 miles me of the right of appeal! an hour. Traffic Bill. [22 MARcH.] Traffic BiU. 2201 .Mr. Smith: That is fast. drivers and I believe that there should be a more stringent examination of those who .Mr. BARNES: It is not fast at all. The want licences to drive cars under this Act. law provides a maximum of 40 miles an hour, When all is said and done, it is in the and that is where we hold ourselves up to interest of the licensee himself to see that ridicule in the public eye. In case some hon. he is physically and mentally capable of members do not know it, this is 1949 and we driving that motor vehicle before he takes should have legislation to suit 1949. Because out a licence under thlis Act, becaUBe 40 miles on hour is the maximum in South of the particularly harsh penalties Australia there is no reason why we must embodied in it. For his own protection he have that maximum here. If South Australia should see that he is physically and mentally jumps down a well, we have not got to jump capable of driving the vehicle for which he down a well also. We can use our own makes application for the licence to drive. discretion. I know that there are quite a number of I remember once driving from Maryborough people in possession of motor-car or motor to Bundaberg in an hour and six minutes, a cycle licences today who could be classefl distance of 75 miles. The bailiff was coming under the general heading of roadhogs. There at the time. My driving that distance in are roadhogs of all types. As an engine man that time would be much safer than that of [ can remember many men who, on approach other people driving at 40 or 50 miles an ing a railway crossing, despite the fact that hour for the plain and simple reason that the warning signal was going, would many people do not know how to drive cars. deliberately accelerate and rush across in Many people who should not have licences front of the locomotive. Sometimes, as the have them granted to them. Many people hon. member for Mackay will bear me out, who are not physically capable of driving it seemed to us on the locomotive as if the cars are allowed to do so. Another point in motor vehicle had passed between the cow driving that people should know-I have fallen catcher and the leading bogie wheel. asleep on two occasions when driving a car. Once when I was out in the West in 1928 I I believe that a good percentage of lives was trying to make up a bit of time and I could be saved if the Railway Department or drove all night. A mulga tree scratched my the traffic authorities or those responsible car and scratched my face and that woke me would establish more railway-crossing signals up. at more points throughout the State. In Townsville and in other towns in Queensland On another occasion I was driving a truck there have been some deplorable and dis at night and had left Brisbane at 12 mid tressing fatalities at railway crossings and night en route to Gympie. I turned off the whilst I know from bitter experience that main road and went over the old road down the wig-wag signal or the electric signal might into a creek and the water stopped my engine. not stop every accident at a crossing, these I got out of that luckily. I did go to sleep warning signals at crossings will stop the on the road despite the fact that occasionally great majority of tJtem. I believe that until I would get out, run along the road and even we can inculcate into the minds of people wash my face to try to keep myself awake. who hold motor-car and motor-cycle licences I say again that many people are driving the fact that they owe a duty to the com cars today who are not physically capable of munity to obey the laws of the road and the driving. I teld hon. members the other day provisions of the Traffic Act, we shall not do of an incident in Eagle street of a woman very much to reduce what has been loosely who blew her horn I stopped. If she had not and broadly termed the awful toll of the road. blown the horn I should have got out of her A man should not be in charge of a motor way naturally; because she blew her horn I vehicle unless he is in full possession of his was nearly run over. Yet these people have faculties. I can give you one startling permits to drive cars. example of how a man can retain possession My reason for rising tonight was to say of his motor-car long after he is no longer that I am bitterly opposed to any Act of fit to do so, and I quote you the case of a Parliament that does not give the right of Chinaman in Townsville 83 years of age. He appeal. I hope the Minister, when we reach was so decrepit and feeble that in driving the Committee stage will take notice of the along Flinders Street, Townsville, one day speeches of the Leader of the Opposition, the he drove into one of the flower beds hecanse hon. member for Toowong, and perhaps he was unable to control the car. That old myself. Chinaman might just as easily have driven into a human being instead of a flower bed. lllr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) (9.21 People who suffer from physical infirmities or p.m.): I do not think we shall get far in the physical or mental weakness should not be ill efficient control of traffic until those respon possession of a motor-car or cycle. sible for the issue of licences to drive Mr. Plnnkett: The Chinaman was pur vehicles, particularly motor cycles, regard the suing his vocation in life in driving into a motor vehicle or motor cycle as a lethal garden. weapon-until they regard the cycle and the motor car as a death-dealing instrument and .Mr. AIKENS: If the hon. member for exercise as much care in the issue of licences Albert can be .iocular about this matter he i.s as is exercised in the issue of licences to entitled to do it, but I view it much moru handle a gun or a pistol. We have to realise seriously. That man could just have easil:· that many motor vehicles and motor cycles have driven into a pedestrian or cyclist or are in the hands of incompetent and incapable human being as into a flower bed. 2202 Tm:(fic Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Traf:Jic Bill. It has been said by the Secretary for one. My means of transport in Townsville Health an~ Home Affairs-and probably his is a bicycle, which I ride to and from my statement 1s borne out by statistics-that old home when I have any work to do. When I people and the physically infirm, whether old travel round the country I travel by train, or young, do not cause many incidents them as I cannot afford to buy a car. selves, that they drive carefully and slowly but they cause other people to be involved I want to make particular reference to in traffic incidents. I have in mind at the the frightful death roll amongst motor moment the Chinaman's cart. There is no cyclists, not only to the number of motor greater cause of incidents or traffic jams in cyclists killed and injured but to the age (/ueensland today than the Chinaman's cart. group in which these motor-cyclists usually He drives slowly up the centre of the road come. We read of these tragedies every day. and every vehicle that requires to pass him has Only the other day in Northern Queensland to swerve and turn either on the correct side two young men going home from Cairns to or the blind side to get by. While the China Gordonvale ran into the rear of a parked man's cart itself does not become involved motor-car and both were killed instantly. in any incident or accident, those who are They were in their early twenties. We read swerving and twisting and turning to avoid too, in the papers the other day of a head-o:O: the cart frequently become involved in traffic collision about Gympie where three young inc~den~s. There .shoul:J- be a stringent exami lads, all of them 2I years of age, were killed. nation m connectwn w1th the issue of licences So, we are not only losing a tremendous to drive motor vehicles. number 'of cyclis't'> as a result of such accidents. but we are losing a type of man Another matter that calls for some con we can ill afford to lose. We are losing sideration is the examination of the motor young men in the full bloom of health and vehicle itself. It should be in a road-worthy s~rength, all of whom would probably have condition, and the braking gear in particular giVen long and useful service to the com should be efficient. I can give an excellent munity. example of where the brakes of a motor vehicle were not in proper working order. Mr. Maher: Spirited young men. :Mr. Sparkes: What about the tyres? Mr. AIKENS: That is so. It is a :Mr. AIKEN,S: I am saying that motor tragedy that we should lose so many fine young cars in general should be in a roacl-worthv ;ne~ as a result of motor-cycle accidents. It order, and especially does this apply to th"e 1s JUSt as great a tragedy as that in the last braking gear. I remember on one occasion war we lost so many fine young men. In when I was on a shunting engine pushing a war-time we lose the cream of our young string of S-wagons across the south yard cross manhood and in motor-cycle accidents also we ing in Townsville, a milkman came along in a lose the cream of our young manhood. Some utility truck, and I said to my driver as he thing should be done about it. eHme along towards the string of S-wagons, Probably the matter is more a psycho ''This chap is going to do a fancy stop when logical one than a legal one. The motor he comes to the crossing.'' He did a fancy cyclist today is in the main a young man. stop; he ran right into the S-wagons. It His blood is hot and he is full of energy and \YaS broad daylight and the visibility was verve. He probably meets another motor fair, and the man was lucky to escape with cyclist and they race along the road at 40 his life. When I got off the engine I miles an hour, <'ach attempting to outstrip went to him and said, "Why didn't you the other. Then they race along in groups, stop~" And he replied, "I have not got one gets the lead and another races along and any brakes. I took the risk. I did not tries to outstrip his mate. Before they know think there would be a train at the crossing.'' what is happening they perhaps run into On another occasion I was going to Ayr some obstacle, or into each other and then in a line of traffic that might well be we read of one of those terrible tragedies Mr. AIKENS: It might have some were crying querulously and everyone was effect. rolling and tossing wide awake, he would give a final rev up and a few final snorts Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem and blurts and he would go up the street; ber will get an opportunity to move that and after that the neighbourhood would settle amendment in Committee if he desires. back to slumber again. Mr. AIKENS: I accept that suggestion A Government lUember: What did the and I may be able to do it. We have reached girl thinH a stage in motor-cycle accidents when we should be willing to try anything to reduce this awful death-roll of our young men a1Hl Mr. AIKENS: I suppose the girl took sometimes of our girls also. it as a sort of fond farewell. They were two young people in love and we know that all the I know there are cynics who say that for a world loves a lover. I am very tolerant of father who really wants to kill his son, it is young people, particularly young people in much cheaper to shoot the son than to buy him a motor cycle. I view with considerable love. I do hope that if ever some other motor concern the death roll resulting from the rid cyclist comes to court some other girl in my ing of motor cycles, particularly pillion riding street he will at least have an efficient silencer, as .it is today. and that he will not go through that madden ing habit of all motor cyclists of revving up I do not know that anything can be done about the noise. I went to considerable his machine before he can start. trouble to find out why motor cycles kick up Mr. Barnes: That is unnecessary. such an ungodly and unbearable noise. I find that many of the owners deliberately interfere with the silencers or muffiers Mr. AIKENS: I do not know whether because they find if they drive at a speed with it is necessary; I have not driven a motor an efficient silencer the baffle plates in the cycle. I hope I shall not hear that hideous silencer create a back pressure on the engine cacophony, the roars and snorts and grunts and cause it to heat up. Rather than and blurts for 25 minutes. Finally they say have the engine heat up they pull out '' Toorooloo, sweetie,'' and away they go up the baffie plates in the silencer and the road; with a final deafening roar and roar through the streets, and it has splutter and it is a half an hour before the become a problem to hear yourself speak. If roosters have stopped crowing and the cats you happen to be out visiting a friend's home have stopped meowing and the dogs have and you are sitting on the front veranda stopped barking and the kids have stopped and a motor cycle is coming along it is im crying. possible to have any conversation while the inotor cycle travels from a point 200 yards As I said on the introductory stage of the before the home and passes a point 200 yards Bill, if the Minister or the police can by beyond the home. While travelling that 400 the implementation of this Bill stop that yards it is impossible to have any conver hideous cacophony of the roaring, snorting, sation on the front veranda. Even in the motor cycle we will er>:ct a monument to the eouncil chambers at Townsville, which are honour of the Minister. well off the footpath-the meeting table is at the far end of the long room on the second floor-at times we have been unable Mr. tSPARKES (Aubigny) (9.41 p.m.): to conduct business because of the noisy The Bill is an honest endeavour to prevent motor cyclists roaring up Flinders Street in the awful toll of the road, and for that I front of the building. At one time in the think every hon. member will commend the street in which I lived there used to be a Minister. I feel sure that if the hon. young chap who was courting a girl and he gentleman will agree to some small amend used to visit her on a motor cycle. ments to be put forward by this side it will A Government Member: You have done be an excellent Bill. it yourself. Much has been said about drunken drivers. Mr. AIKENS: Courting is the olde·st Nobody will try to protect a dTUnken driver game in the world, and I regret I did not play in any way, but there must be a very careful it more often myself. administration of that part of the Bill. I At about 12 or 1 o'clock this young man have no quarrel with the police but some would be getting away and everyone would times we meet the over-zealous policeman be peacefully asleep after the labours of the who might go just a little bit beyond the day; men, women, and children, and dogs power this Bill gives him. However, in and fowls would be peatefully reposing at that respect the administration of the Bill the time when this young chap decided to will play a very important part in its success. leave his girl. Before he could start the motor cycle he must go through that mys It has been said that fast driving causes a terious process which they call ''revving her great many accidents. I believe that is so, up.'' He would rev her up nnd slw would but it is the misuse of fast driving that is to snort and grunt and blurt and grumble and finally, after every man, woman and child blame. Fast driving is all right out on the was awake, after every dog was barking- and highways where there is little traffic. The every rooster was crowing, when the babies modern car of today will travel at 50 miles 2204 Traffic Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Traffic Bill. an hour and when it is well shod that speed By way of interjection when the Leader is safe and perhaps much safer than a speed of the Opposition asked why there was any of 20 or 30 miles an hour in a crowded need to stop people from advertising if they street. wanted others to accompany them, the Minister said that he had a case in which M:r. Barnes: Or even 15 miles an hour. five people paid £3 10s. each to go to Sydney. Mr. SPARKES: That also may be a Mr. Jones: In an unlicensed vehicle. danger. It is the way in which the vehicle 1\Ir. SPARKES: Let us assume that I is driven that causes the danger. There are am intending to go to North or Western other drivers besides the fast drivers who Queensland. After all, "·e still think we are cause trouble in the country today, and I in a free country. The paper publishes the ask the Minister to take particular notice of advertisement in all good faith. The police the drivers of the very heavy lorries one sees can see the advertisement and what is wrong in the country. Most of these lorries travel with it if I advertise that I am going to at night. They start off in the afternoon North Queensland and would like one or two and. are on the road in the dark. Of course, companions to go with me and they decide to the roads are used also by people coming come with me and put in £10 or £5 toward and going, but the drivers of these lorries expensesW think that they are entitled to half the road and that half should be in the middle of the Mr. Mann: You are not paying your road. Admittedly there are many very road tax then. decent lorry-drivers. Mr. SPARKES: Does the hon. member Mr. Bnton: Very few. say that if I am driving out in Western Queensland and I pick up a man and take .M:r. SPARKES: I said there are many him along I should be paying road tax~ decent lorry-drivers. The drivers of some Mr. 1\Iann: That is a different story. of the lorries with very heavy loads on some of the roads cannot afford to get too much 1\Ir. SPARKES: Not at all. The hon. off the crown of the road. I realise that, member is everlastingly crying out about the because I drive a heavy lorry with a very poor man's rights yet he argues that because hig load when I am at home and find that a man has not the wherewithal to travel to if I get off the crown of the road I am North Queensland he should be deprived of likely to go over. Many of these lorries are the opportunity of going to North Queensland overloaded. Thev are supposed to carry 5 or somewhere else in my car. What is wrong tons but carry nearer ll) tons. These drivers with Tom J ones or Bill Smith's going with get onto the middle of the road and one can me if he wants to go to Charleville or some go to blazes if one wants to pass them. One where elsef How often do we see those hon. passes them at one's risk because there is members on the Government side who inter no vision ahead. They will keep another ject sitting in one of the Minister for Trans driver behind them for miles. It is these port's trains~ It is not very often. I have men who are a menace on the road. The been down South and I have been out West hon. member for Carnarvon is out in those and up North and on most occasions I see nreas where these large lorries run and will them stepping out of planes-and I do not wrify what I say. blame them for a moment, but why are they so hard on the workerf This is one clause Mr. Bilton: It is very hard. that should be deleted from the Bill. I can not see the need for it. An advertisement is Mr. SP ARKES: The hon. member published in the Press and it is a good thing yerifies my statement. These men should be in a way because the police know where a r-arefully watched. If a motor vehicle is man is going and all about him. Everything following them they take particular delight is fair and aboveboard. Knowing the ll'hen approaching a culvert marked by white Minister as I do, I feel sure that he will J>Osts to veer across the road just before they delete it. Without throwing any bouquets, get to it. One has to take on either the and speaking seriously, I feel sure that as post or them. That has occurred in many he is a very fair Minister he will listen and instances. see the fairness of what I am saying. Mr. Mann: Most of these culverts are There is another matter to which the Pre ,-cr:r narr0\1'\-". mier gave a reply by way of interjection, if I remember rightly. It relates to the question M:r. SPARKES: Yes. of a car on the road or elsewhere. What right has a policeman to come into my paddock or I hold no brief for the drunken driver, but anywhere else if I am driving a ear round there are many men who will have a drink on that paddock the road and be much better drivers than some men who have never had a drink in Mr. Jones: He has not. their lives. I do not drink, so that it cannot Mr. SPARKES: The Bill says he has. he said that I am biased in any way when I Mr. Jones: No. say that it is rather unfair to say that a man is under the influence of drink because he Mr. 1SPARKES: I am pleased to have happens to smell of whisky or something that assurance. like that. I do also make particular mention Mr. Jones: I will explain that when of heavy-lorry drivers. we are in Committee. Traffic Bill. [23 MARcH.] Questions. 2205 )fr. SPARKES: I thank the hon. gentle man and if he says the policeman has no right I have enough faith in him to accept his word. I was surprised to hear of the awful toll of the road as given by the Minister in his second-reading speech. It is astounding and makes death by plane travelling small potatoes indeed. We know that when there is a plane disaster, like the awful one at Coolangatta the other day, everyone raises his hands in horror but when you think of the deaths on the roads from cars and motor cycles and you consider the number of peoE_le carried by planes and the distances they fry, plane travelling is safe indeed. I agree with the Minister when he says that brakes are important but I do not agree with the fellow who goes down the road in broad daylight and crashes into a lot of trucks just because his brakes are faulty. There is a switch and a gear on cars and if you switch the engine off and throw the car into low gear you do not run into other fellows. Whilst the question of brakes is important and they cause many accidents, faulty tyres also cause accidents. The hon. member opposite can frown but when he goes motoring he makes sure he has good tyres on his car. If you have a faulty tyre on the front wheel of a modern motor-car and it blows out you are mighty lucky if you do not turn over. Once you lose the tread of YOtu tyre it should be taken off. }fr. P·ower: It is all right if you have a steel hood. Jir. SPARKES: I know the hon. mem ber's joke about a steel hood. The hon. member he is trying to protect was quite although he was travelling at 70 miles as his tyres were good. \Yith the few alterations I have suggested I am in accord with the Bill and I believe if it is fairly administered it will be of great benefit to the State. Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers Secretary for Health and Home Affair~) (H.53 p.m.), in reply: I have lister.ed care fully to the different speakers and should say that virtually all the matters they have raised should be dealt with in the Committee ~tag~;;, I a'[!preciate the difficuity of dealing with specific clauses, but as the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Toov ong were speaking I could almost identify the particular clauses they were discussing. I am not suggesting that they · could l .'•.ve approached the subject from any other ar ,gle. Tonight I do not feel inclined to ,·eply to the matters hon. members have Aised because after all I shall have to rep;'Jl:t my statements at the Committee stage. I have taken notes of what they have said and it is my intention to reply to them in Committee. Motion (Mr. J ones) agreed to. The House adjourned at 9.55 p.m.