House of Commons Communities and Local Government Committee
Councillors on the frontline
Sixth Report of Session 2012–13
Volume I: Report, together with formal minutes, oral and written evidence
Additional written evidence is contained in Volume II, available on the Committee website at www.parliament.uk/clgcom
Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 17 December 2012
HC 432 Published on 10 January 2013 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £23.00
The Communities and Local Government Committee
The Communities and Local Government Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Department for Communities and Local Government.
Current membership Mr Clive Betts MP (Labour, Sheffield South-East) (Chair) Bob Blackman MP (Conservative, Harrow East) Simon Danczuk MP (Labour, Rochdale) Bill Esterson MP (Labour, Sefton Central) Stephen Gilbert MP (Liberal Democrat, St Austell and Newquay) David Heyes MP (Labour, Ashton under Lyne) James Morris MP (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis) Mark Pawsey MP (Conservative, Rugby) Andy Sawford MP (Labour, Corby) John Stevenson MP (Conservative, Carlisle) Heather Wheeler MP (Conservative, South Derbyshire)
Heidi Alexander MP (Labour, Lewisham East) and George Hollingbery (Conservative, Meon Valley) were also members of the Committee during this inquiry.
Powers The committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the internet via www.parliament.uk.
Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the internet at www.parliament.uk/parliament.uk/clg. A list of Reports of the Committee in the present Parliament is at the back of this volume.
The Reports of the Committee, the formal minutes relating to that report, oral evidence taken and some or all written evidence are available in a printed volume.
Additional written evidence may be published on the internet only.
Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Glenn McKee (Clerk), Sarah Heath (Second Clerk), Stephen Habberley (Inquiry Manager), Kevin Maddison (Committee Specialist), Emily Gregory (Senior Committee Assistant), Mandy Sullivan (Committee Assistant), Stewart McIlvenna, (Committee Support Assistant) and Hannah Pearce (Media Officer).
Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Communities and Local Government Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 1234; the Committee’s email address is [email protected]
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Contents
Report Page
Summary 3
1 Introduction 5 The Councillors Commission 6 Our inquiry 6 Our report 7
2 Localism and the role of councillors 8 Councillors in the community 8 Working with external organisations 10 Empowering councillors 11 Influence over “outsourced” services 13 “Guided” and “muscular” localism 14 Structures and elections 14 Neighbourhood councils 14 Unitary authorities 15 Election arrangements 17 Ward composition 17 Structures and elections: conclusion 18
3 Representation and local democracy 19 The role of political parties 20 Looking beyond political parties 23 Independent councillors 25 The role of local government: promoting local democracy 26 Be a Councillor programme 28
4 Barriers to becoming and remaining a councillor 30 Time commitment 30 Employers 32 Remuneration 33
5 Councillor performance and training 37 Training 38 Skills 38 Providers of training 39 Training before election 41
6 Conclusion 42
Annex: Communities and Local Government Committee Discussion Forum 43
Conclusions and recommendations 57
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Formal Minutes 63
Witnesses 64
List of printed written evidence 65
List of additional written evidence 65
List of Reports from the Committee during the current Parliament 67
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Summary
The role of councillors is changing and becoming increasingly community-based. In future, councillors will be expected to spend more time out and about supporting their constituents, working with external organisations (such as GPs, schools, police, local businesses and voluntary organisations) and ensuring communities make the most of all the opportunities available to them. Councils should be devolving power and resources to their members to enable them to fulfil this role: we have seen some examples of good practice from which other councils can learn. The Government, in turn, has to fully embrace localism and give local authorities real ability to make decisions.
With this new role, it is important that communities have councillors to whom they can relate. At present, the membership of many local authorities does not reflect the demographic make-up of the communities they serve. It is important to increase, for example, the proportion of women, younger people and black and minority ethnic people serving on local authorities. The political parties have an important part to play in this, and are already taking action; they need to make a concerted effort to ensure that their national policies are implemented in all parts of the country. Local authorities have to do more to promote democratic engagement, and popularise the idea of becoming a councillor.
We identified three key practical barriers to people becoming and remaining councillors. First, some people are put off by the time commitment involved: as the role becomes increasingly demanding, councils should consider providing councillors with officer support to help them, for instance, to manage their casework. Second, employers do not always take a positive view of their staff becoming councillors and may not give them the support or time off work they need: the Government should consider whether employers can be given any encouragement or incentives to support their employees who are councillors. Third, while people do not become councillors for the money, the levels of allowances can be a deterrent to people standing for election. Councillors shy away from increasing allowances because they are conscious of the negative public and press reaction: to address this issue, councils should be given the power to transfer decisions about allowances to independent local bodies.
It is important that appropriate mechanisms are in place to support councillors’ performance and train them in the skills they need. Councillors should be encouraged to report to their communities on their performance over the year; the parties should take this performance into account when deciding whether or not to reselect a councillor. Training should be adapted to meet the changing role of councillors, and should be considered a benefit, not a cost, to the local taxpayer. At a time when councillors are being called on to make increasingly difficult decisions about service reductions and budget priorities, they have more need than ever for the support and resources to enable them to undertake this role. It is therefore important that there are sufficient resources in place to meet their training and development needs.
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1 Introduction
1. Effective local democracy requires effective councillors. Up and down the country, councillors work tirelessly for their communities, as representatives, caseworkers, advocates, providers of scrutiny, and in countless other ways. Attention, however, is rarely given to who these councillors are and what their functions are, especially when compared to the bright spotlight beneath which national politicians live and operate. In conducting this inquiry, we have considered a number of issues about the role of councillors on principal authorities: the nature of their relationship with the communities they serve; approaches to recruiting candidates; barriers that might deter people from becoming councillors; and whether councillors are given the support and training they need to carry out the job effectively.
2. The last couple of decades have seen a number of changes to local government and the role of councillors, perhaps the most significant of which arose from the Local Government Act 2000. This Act brought about the end of the traditional “committee system” and required councils to choose one of four options for a new political structure: two involved directly elected mayors; one a ‘leader and cabinet’ model; and the fourth option, available only to smaller councils, a streamlined committee structure.1 Most councils opted for the leader and cabinet model.2 It led to a split on local authorities between a small number of members with executive functions, and the remaining “backbench” councillors. These non-executive councillors were expected to play a stronger role in representing their community, and also to take on a role in scrutinising executive decision-making.3
3. More recently, the Coalition Government has placed particular emphasis upon the concept of localism. Soon after its formation in May 2010, it committed itself to ending “the era of top-down government by giving new powers to local councils, communities, neighbourhoods and individuals”.4 In a speech the following month, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Rt Hon Eric Pickles MP, stated that he had three “very clear priorities” for government: “localism [...] localism [...] and [...] localism”.5 The debate about localism has led to new considerations about the role played by local authorities and their councillors. We will consider some of these issues and look at the extent to which localism is changing the role of councillors.
4. A key motivation for us to launch this inquiry came from statistics about those who serve on councils. In our terms of reference, we cited the National Census of Local Authority Councillors for England. Amongst other things, this census revealed that the
1 Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG), The New Council Constitution: The Outcomes and Impact of the Local Government Act 2000, pp 21-2 2 Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG), The New Council Constitution: The Outcomes and Impact of the Local Government Act 2000, p 23 3 DCLG, The New Council Constitution: The Outcomes and Impact of the Local Government Act 2000, p 18. The Localism Act 2011 enables councils to return to the Committee system if they wish. 4 HM Government, The Coalition: our programme for government, May 2010, p 11 5 Speech by Rt Hon Eric Pickles MP to the Queen’s Speech Forum, 11 June 2010. Available at: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/queens-speech-forum.
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average age of a councillor was now 60; that only 31% of councillors were women; and that 96% were white.6
The Councillors Commission
5. The issues we are considering in this report are nothing new. Following the publication back in 2006 of the Local Government White Paper, Strong and Prosperous Communities, the then Government established the independent Councillors Commission “to review the incentives and barriers to people standing and serving as councillors”.7 The Commission, chaired by Dame Jane Roberts, former Leader of Camden Council, published its report, Representing the Future, in December 2007.8 The report made 61 recommendations and set out five key principles. In written evidence, Dame Jane stated:
Representing the Future’s principles, and most of its recommendations, were accepted by the government in 2008. The report was very well received by local government commentators, academics and many in local and central government although others seemed to find some of its recommendations more radical than perhaps they were willing to go along with. Political parties were not interested enough, a problem then and, I suspect, now.9
While there were reservations about some of the Commission’s findings,10 overall it made a useful contribution to the debate about local democratic representation. The Councillors Commission set out some important principles about the role and recruitment of councillors, and shone a light on a number of important issues, some of which we have considered in this inquiry.
Our inquiry
6. We began our inquiry with a seminar at the Local Government Association (LGA), where we met councillors from a range of backgrounds to discuss their motivations and experiences.11 Following this we held four oral evidence sessions. One of these sessions took place in Sunderland, where we also met informally with councillors, officers and others, and saw the steps the council was taking to empower councillors through its Community Leadership Programme. To ensure that the evidence we received was comprehensive, we took the unusual step of issuing a further call for evidence. This call was targeted at groups from whom we would not normally hear and specifically sought views on why people chose or chose not to become councillors. It was publicised via Twitter and the local and national media, and generated a number of additional submissions (we received over 60 submissions in total). To enable us to explore the issues raised further, the Parliamentary Outreach Service organised a discussion forum with 31 people identified
6 Local Government Group and National Foundation for Educational Research, National Census of Local Authority Councillors 2010, October 2011. Figures are rounded to the nearest whole number. 7 DCLG, Government Response to the Councillors Commission, July 2008, p 8 8 DCLG, Representing the Future: the Report of the Councillors Commission, December 2007 9 Ev 146, para 12.1 10 See, for example, Q 357 [Robert Neill MP]. 11 Ev w58
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through the service’s database: the participants included current councillors, former councillors and people who had chosen to serve their communities in other ways. A written record of this forum is annexed to our report.12
7. Thanks are due to all those who contributed to our inquiry, including:
• the individuals and organisations who supplied us with written or oral evidence;
• the LGA for hosting the seminar, and all those councillors who attended;
• the Parliamentary Outreach Service for organising our discussion forum, and all who participated in the forum;
• Sunderland City Council for hosting our evidence session and visit, and all those we met in Sunderland;
• the parenting website Netmums, which conducted a survey of its members about their perceptions and experiences of councillors and local government;13 and
• Professor Colin Copus and Dr Melvin Wingfield of De Montfort University, who provided us with an analysis of the results of a survey of councillors in 16 countries across Europe.14
Finally, we owe particular gratitude to our specialist adviser, Professor Tony Travers, of the London School of Economics and Political Science.15
Our report
8. Our report falls into four parts. In Chapter 2 we consider how localism is impacting upon the role of councillors. Chapter 3 looks at issues relating to representation and local democracy, including steps that can be taken to increase the diversity of the councillor population. In Chapter 4, we examine some of the practical barriers to people standing for elections and how they can be overcome. Finally, in Chapter 5, we turn to the performance of councillors and consider the adequacy of the training they are given. We are conscious that the experience of being a councillor will vary from place to place and between different types of authority—county, district, unitary, metropolitan and London borough—and, while for the most part in this report we refer to councillors in general terms, we encourage readers to be mindful of these differences.
12 See p 43. 13 Ev w48 14 Ev 120 15 Tony Travers declared the following interests: Remunerated employment at the London School of Economics (since 1987); Remunerated consultancy for organisations and institutions in the public, private and not-for-profit sectors; Member of commissions for public and private agencies (short-term and unremunerated); Speaker at conferences and seminars (some remunerated); Freelance writer for several newspapers and periodicals; Formerly member of the City Finance Commission, which undertook an inquiry “to review, explore and set out recommendations for the future of city local government finance with the aim of producing a system that fosters growth, is self-sufficient, fair, transparent and responsive to the needs of effective city governance in England.”; the Commission reported in May 2011.
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2 Localism and the role of councillors
9. In this chapter, we will consider how localism is impacting upon the position and job of councillors, and the extent to which councils and councillors are making the most of the opportunities offered by localism and other reforms. We also consider some of the issues raised in our evidence about the structures of local government and arrangements for elections.
10. The Office for Public Management, in written evidence, believed that localism created both opportunities for and threats to the role of councillors:
Local communities are being invited to have a stronger voice in deciding what happens in their area. On the one hand, that could be seen to reduce the relevance of councillors, as individuals and community groups will be encouraged to have their say direct rather than channelled through an elected member. On the other hand, the fact that councillors are elected and therefore have both the mandate and the legitimacy that others don’t, means it will be hugely important that they remain at the centre of conversations and decisions affecting their areas.16
This reflects to some extent one of the conclusions of our report into Localism, where we found that the Government was sending out mixed messages about the role of local government in localism, with some measures giving councils new powers and roles, and others, such as Police and Crime Commissioners, school policy, and council tax referendums, apparently seeking to bypass them.17 In this inquiry, we found further evidence of this inconsistency, which we comment on in this chapter and in Chapter 4.
Councillors in the community
11. Our evidence made a strong case for councillors under localism playing an active and visible role in amongst their communities, rather than just sitting in the town or county hall.18 Buckinghamshire County Council stated:
The number of Councillors who are proactive locally is growing. These Councillors make the time to go out and about in their local communities—learning about the communities they represent and the issues that they face. The most effective Councillors in their communities are those who understand the value in building good working relationships locally. These tend to be individuals who also recognise the need for change and actively campaign, leading where necessary to ensure improvements happen.19
Cllr Peter Fleming, Chair of the Improvement Board at the Local Government Association (LGA), said it was important that when a constituent wished to raise an issue “there is an
16 Ev w7. On councillors’ democratic mandate, see also Ev 176 [Leeds City Council and the Commission on the Future of Local Government] and Q 55 [Cllr Peter Fleming]. 17 Communities and Local Government Committee, Third Report of Session 2010–12, Localism, HC 547, para 101 18 See, for example, Qq 186 and 213 [Cllr Robert Gordon], Ev w39 [Cllr Richard Kemp]. 19 Ev w6
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easy access to their local councillor, and their local councillor knows how to make things happen or at least point the person in the right direction”.20 Caroline Abrahams, Director of External Affairs at Age UK, considered that “smart councillors recognise that you need to talk to people, like the older people living in the area [...] to find out what is going on in your patch, so that you can then represent them”.21 At our discussion forum, participants stressed the importance of councillors being visible in their communities,22 and of them acting as role models for others.23
12. A term frequently used to describe councillors’ role in their communities is “community leadership”, although some evidence suggests that this is a difficult concept to define.24 Cllr Alycia James from Lancaster City Council said that many councillors
confuse leadership with doing everything yourself, at first I too fell into this trap. We cannot take on the running of every single project in the area, we as leaders, need to help guide the community, help give them the tools and overall be facilitators. Sometimes you are needed just to get the ball rolling, an odd letter to this organisation or in order to help a project move along, to co-ordinate between the council and community groups.25
Cllr Robert Gordon CBE, Leader of Hertfordshire County Council, also saw councillors playing a “facilitation” role, but did not like the term “community leadership”; he said:
I do not know even whether you would use the term ‘leadership’. It is brokerage; it is engagement; it is facilitation; it is entrepreneurial—it is all that sort of stuff.26
His authority had a vision of a “new relationship between councillors and the people they serve: Councillors will be community ‘activists’, one among equals, (perhaps, even a first among equals) but helping and encouraging respective ‘little societies’ and individuals within their area”.27
13. Another vision was offered by Leeds City Council, which had led the Commission on the Future of Local Government, which published its report in July 2012. This proposed, as its “core idea”, the notion of “civic enterprise”, which it described as “a new leadership style for local government where councils become more enterprising, businesses and other partners become more civic, and citizens become more engaged”.28 Under this approach, there were “crucial roles for councillors not only in being civic entrepreneurs but also in providing visible civic leadership to enable and support the work of others”.29 Cllr Lucinda Yeadon, Executive Member for Adult Social Care at Leeds City Council, told us that the
20 Q 89 21 Q 61 22 Annex, para 69 23 Annex, para 23 24 Ev 114 [Professor Colin Copus], Q 38 [Liz Richardson] 25 Ev 183 26 Q 191 27 Ev 158 28 Commission on the Future of Local Government, July 2012, p 6. Available at www.civicenterpriseuk.org. 29 Commission on the Future of Local Government, July 2012, p 7
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role of local government would be “just as important or probably more important in the future, but very different”, and said that it was important to have councillors who could adapt to the change.30
14. The Secretary of State, in written evidence, said that, through the localism agenda, the Government was “significantly expanding the opportunities for local councillors to serve their communities and help local people take control [of] their lives and localities”.31 He cited a number of measures being put in place, including the introduction of neighbourhood planning, the right to build, the community right to challenge and the community right to bid.32 We asked Brandon Lewis MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Department for Communities and Local Government, who gave oral evidence, whether councillors should have a role in facilitating provisions such as the Community Right to Challenge:
Yes, is the short answer. [...] on a range of areas—this being one of them—it is the people and the authorities that grasp an opportunity and run with it [...] that will gain the most. There will be areas that will do this more, and I would love to see more and more councils making more and more people aware.33
15. We have heard different descriptions of the role councillors should be playing in their community. Some witnesses have referred to “community leadership”. Others have said that councillors should be “facilitators” or “civic entrepreneurs”. It does not really matter how this role is described: individual councillors will adapt their approaches to what works locally. What matters more is that the Government does not accidentally undermine the authority of councillors, and that councillors are, in turn, visible in their communities, getting out and about, meeting their constituents and giving them the help and support they need. In doing so, they should be encouraging communities to make the most of all the opportunities available to them, including those offered by the Localism Act 2011. By being visible and active, councillors can also become role models for others in the community and encourage a wider range of people to take an interest in local government.
Working with external organisations
16. Some considered that councillors had a role in working with other providers of public services. West Midlands Councils stated:
Another important leadership role for councillors is to engage and influence the increasing diversity of public, third sector and private providers operating in their area. This can be a challenging task with, in many cases, limited direct or even indirect influence through the council but it can be a valuable and productive one.34
30 Q 188 31 Ev 104 32 Ev 103 33 Q 401 34 Ev w2
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Leeds City Council and the Commission on the Future of Local Government said that “councillors should [...] act as ‘door openers’ to services and other community actors, such as GPs, schools, businesses and third sector organisations”.35 In Sunderland, we visited a primary school where the head teacher described her close working relationship with the local councillors and how engagement had noticeably improved in recent years. She considered that an important part of the councillors’ role was to understand what was happening in their ward, and that working with schools helped them to develop this understanding.
17. In supporting their communities, councillors should be working closely with external organisations and providers of public services. By forging close relationships with GPs, schools, neighbourhood policing teams, voluntary organisations and local businesses, councillors can broaden their understanding of the key issues facing their community. They also have a role in bringing organisations together to share intelligence and provide a co-ordinated and effective response to local needs.
Empowering councillors
18. Some witnesses suggested that, just as there was a need for Government to devolve power to local authorities, so councils had to devolve the power to councillors operating at the local level. Professor Colin Copus of De Montfort University said of community leadership that “only so much can be achieved through soft political powers”.36 He argued that the “community leadership role of the councillor within his or her ward / division needs to be clarified and supported with powers, budgets and by the council infra-structure if councillors are to be able to lead disparate communities”.37
19. Robert Howard, a political and community activist, who had previously served as a councillor, said that he was “an advocate of mini-mayors [...] leading their community, working with their local community, and taking responsibility for services that relate to that area”. He added:
[...] Hazel Blears [then Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government], in 2007, gave councillors that power, providing local authorities let them exercise it, but of course they are not. Local care services in Nottingham would be far better run if they were run by the local community, but in fact what we saw where I live in Lenton was a Carelink service provided by local people lose out when the City Council decided it was easier to have a citywide contract. [...] Have your mini- mayors, have your local councillors running those kinds of services, and you can address that problem, because they can manage those budgets. [...] It is all doable, and the reason we do not do it is because of control. The people up there want to control everything; they are manage-freaks.38
35 Ev 176 36 Ev 115 37 Ev 113 38 Q 284
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Cllr Richard Kemp CBE, Director of the Liberal Democrats’ Winning with Localism operation, said that councils should be “freeing up resources to ensure that councillors can be the local community champion or as I describe it become the ‘cabinet member’ for their ward”.39
20. We heard from a number of local authorities who were finding ways to give councillors greater influence over the way local authority services were delivered. During our visit to Sunderland, we heard how councillors had been empowered through the City Council’s Community Leadership Programme. Cllr Michael Mordey, Policy Member for City Services, told us that for him the “best thing” about the programme had been the introduction of area response teams. He explained how the teams worked:
If you have a problem in your ward and are rung up by a resident, you pick up the phone, in my case [to call ...] the response manager for the eastern area, and within hours the problem is dealt with, if not resolved. Therefore, in terms of putting councillors on the front line and assisting us in our duties to the public, one aspect of the community leadership programme is the team of area response managers, and I think that is very worthwhile.40
The initial focus of this “Responsive Local Services” approach had been on street scene issues but it was being extended into other areas.41 Sunderland City Council had also put in place arrangements to devolve decision making to areas within the city. Councillors served on area committees and boards that worked in partnership with voluntary sector and other public sector bodies.42 In addition, they were assigned an account manager – a council officer who would “be a first point of contact [...] providing a range of capacity development, communications, opinion testing and support functions”.43 We found that the Community Leadership Programme had given a much greater role to councillors who were not members of the Cabinet. Cllr David Tate, the Council’s Chair of Scrutiny, told us that “backbench” councillors had now become “frontline” councillors and that this change had made “a big difference”.44
21. Leeds City Council had also established area committees. Cllr Yeadon said that while she considered these to have been effective, they were still a “work in progress”.45 Hertfordshire County Council, through its “vision of localism”, had taken a different approach to devolution, opting to give councillors their own budgets. They were each allocated £100,000 a year: £10,000 through the Members’ Locality Budget Scheme, and £90,000 through the Highways Locality Budget Scheme.46 NAVCA, which represents local support and development organisations, stated that its “members report that where councillors have been allocated funds, they have been better able to respond to local
39 Ev w39 40 Q 109 41 Ev 150, para 5.1 42 Qq 99–100 [Cllr Celia Gofton] 43 Ev 150, para 4.6 44 Q 109 45 Q 196 46 Ev 159
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concerns and to support local needs and projects, leading to better relations with their local communities”.47 A number of other councils also described initiatives that they were putting in place, or already had in place, to empower and devolve responsibility to their councillors.48
22. It is incumbent upon councillors and councils to take full advantage of the opportunities offered by localism. We have heard from a number of local authorities who are responding positively by promoting and developing the role of councillors within their communities. We urge all councils to consider how best to provide support to their councillors and assist them to ensure they have an active role in their communities. Wherever possible, councils should be seeking to devolve power and resources to councillors at the local level, to enable them to fulfil this role. This devolution could take a number of forms: enabling councillors to become “mini mayors” at the ward or community level; delegating budgets; or establishing area committees with decision- making responsibilities. We have seen good examples of what can be achieved: the levers are in place, so councils should get on with the job of devolving power. The approaches they take will depend upon the characteristics of the area and the type of authority, but it is important that examples of good practice are collected and publicised. Councils and the Local Government Association should work together to ensure that good practice is shared and that authorities learn from each other.
Influence over “outsourced” services
23. While Sunderland’s responsive services model was undoubtedly successful, we were unsure how it would work if the services it covered were not delivered “in house”. In other authorities, many services are delivered under contract by external bodies. Cllr Gordon told us that Hertfordshire County Council was seeking to “identify more decisions that can be made susceptible to local variation and local influence” as its highways service had been.49 We asked whether this would be more difficult to achieve where services were outsourced; he replied:
Not if the contracts are appropriately written. We have all sorts of history about our highway contracts, which are the largest ones, but the front-line interrelation with officers, whether they are county council staff or outsource staff doesn’t matter, provided the contract is written right and the expectation is right.50
24. Increasingly, council services are being delivered by external providers. In these cases, it is important that the role of the councillor is not reduced. Councillors have to be able to influence the way services are delivered, and should not be prevented from doing so because their authority is locked into a long-term contract where there is no access for local politicians to intervene in relation to service quality. Councils should
47 Ev w82, para 3.1 48 See, for example, Ev w6 [Buckinghamshire County Council], Ev w12 [Staffordshire County Council], Ev w25 [Wiltshire Council], Q 135 [Cllrs Judith Wallace and Jeff Reid]. 49 Q 242 50 Q 243
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take care when drawing up contracts to ensure that the contracts allow councillors to shape service delivery and have regular contact with frontline staff.
“Guided” and “muscular” localism
25. If the Government wants councils to embrace localism and to devolve power, it must itself set an example. In our 2011 report on Localism, we expressed concern about the Secretary of State’s use of the term “guided localism”, and argued that central government could not “have it both ways—on the one hand giving local authorities the freedom to make their own choices, and on the other maintaining that only one of those choices is the ‘sensible’ one”.51 More recently, Mr Pickles introduced the concept of “muscular localism”, in reference to proposals to allow planning applications to be made directly to the Secretary of State if a local planning authority was deemed to be underperforming.52 We remain concerned about the Government’s mixed messages on localism. The Secretary of State’s use of terms such as “guided localism” and now “muscular localism” suggests an inability to let go of the reins and embrace the concept fully. This can be frustrating and confusing for councillors and councils wishing to make the most of localism. We once again urge the Government to rein in its interventionist instincts, and to commit to giving councils real freedom to make important decisions about issues affecting their areas. Centrally directed localism is a contradiction in terms.
Structures and elections
26. In this section we consider what our evidence said about the structures within local government, and the arrangements for elections. We examine whether they have any implications for the role of the councillor.
Neighbourhood councils
27. Localism has placed a renewed focus upon the role of parish and town councils. The think tank Localis said:
By reinvigorating democratic involvement at the most local level, parish councils and neighbourhood groups will take charge of their locality, and newly‐granted powers will help them take up direct responsibility for their neighbourhood.53
Evidence from local government suggested that collaboration with parish and town councils was an important part of a councillor’s role: a number of authorities had built consultation and liaison with local councils into their localist working arrangements.54 West Midlands Councils referred in particular to councillors collaborating closely with town and parish councils on the development of Neighbourhood Plans.55
51 Communities and Local Government Committee, Third Report of Session 2010–12, Localism, HC 547, para 57 52 HC Deb, 6 September 2012, col 405 53 Ev w30 54 Ev w5 [Buckinghamshire County Council]; Ev 157 [Hertfordshire County Council]; Ev w12 [Staffordshire County Council]; Ev w25 [Wiltshire Council]. 55 Ev w4-5
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28. Paul Wheeler, Director of the Political Skills Forum, suggested that “a new range of neighbourhood councils (incorporating existing town and parish councils)” could become the “building blocks of local democracy” and help to create more “‘pathways’ to stand for elected office”.56 He said that he supported the expansion of parish and town councils into urban areas:
Westminster [in Queen’s Park] has started [to establish a neighbourhood council]. I think it could be a really good training ground, but it could also be something in itself. Brent and all these others could really do with a much more local representative structure and people could dip in. [...] That could revolutionise local politics, but you would have to do it over what are very, very vested interests at the moment.57
On 31 October 2012, the Government launched a discussion paper, Making it easier to set up new town and parish councils. This included three options to make the creation of parish and town councils easier: “amending existing guidance”; “changing the law (including doing so after amending guidance)”; and “making it easier for neighbourhood forums to start the process for creating a new parish council”.58 On this final option, the consultation states:
the neighbourhood planning process should generate community interest and engagement in the idea of shaping and improving the neighbourhood. That may mean that it can also be a good starting point for considering the creation of a town or parish council.59
29. By collaborating with parish and town councillors on issues such as neighbourhood planning, councillors on principal authorities can ensure that their communities maximise the benefits offered by localism. Moreover, being a parish and town councillor could for some people act as a “pathway” to service on a principal authority, giving them the opportunity to develop the necessary skills. We support the development of parish and town councils in areas that are currently “unparished” where communities wish to see them created, and welcome the Government’s commitment to make it easier for communities to establish local councils.
Unitary authorities
30. We took some evidence about how making changes to the structure of local government could help promote engagement between communities and their councillors. Dame Jane Roberts, former Chair of the Councillors Commission, said:
Unitary authorities make a whole heap of sense because there is one authority. People have talked about [how] three different tiers of government might be
56 Ev 170-1 57 Q 297 58 DCLG, Making it easier to set up new town and parish councils: discussion paper, October 2012. In areas where there is not a town or parish council, neighbourhood planning can be carried out by anyone who wants to set up or join a group which is designated as a ‘neighbourhood forum’ by the local authority. 59 DCLG, Making it easier to set up new town and parish councils: discussion paper, October 2012, para 33
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responsible for one roundabout. It is bonkers, and then we expect people to understand and engage.60
Witnesses from local government acknowledged that local government could be more complex in multi-tier areas. Buckinghamshire County Council, for example, stated:
The two-tier arrangement of local government brings with it specific challenges in relation to Councillors working in their local communities. From the electorate’s perspective there is often confusion around the County and District Council remits and therefore which Councillor to contact.61
Cllr Simon Killane, a councillor on Wiltshire Council, which had become a unitary authority in 2009 (replacing a county and four district councils),62 said:
I think a unitary in itself is a far better idea than the tiered system, but you have to have a root and branch. You have to make sure that you can delegate the power down from the unitary, like in a military situation where each level understands what their role is and is empowered to do what they need to do.63
Wiltshire Council’s submission gave details of the steps it was taking to put “real power and money in the hands of local communities”.64
31. The former Deputy Prime Minster Lord Heseltine, in a recent government- commissioned report, No stone unturned in pursuit of growth, recommended that
All two-tier English local authorities outside London should pursue a path towards unitary status. The Government should encourage this and work with authorities to clarify the process and enable it to happen.65
32. Brandon Lewis, the Minister, when asked about the structure of local government, replied:
It can be a complicated system. We have got parishes that are bigger than some districts. But, to my mind, that is kind of the beauty of it, because what has happened over the years—it is still happening is those local communities—is that those local areas and councils, at whatever level, have evolved and developed to be what their community is best served by. It will continue to evolve that way. That is one of the beauties of our system—it can move and evolve, rather than being forced and directed.66
60 Q 19 61 Ev w6 62 Local Better Regulation Office, New Unitaries Case Study: Wiltshire Council, May 2010. Available at: http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/brdo/docs/resources/unitaries-case-study-03.pdf. 63 Q 308 64 Ev w25 65 Lord Heseltine, No stone unturned in pursuit of growth, p 54 66 Q 436
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The Secretary of State subsequently confirmed that he did not plan to implement Lord Heseltine’s proposals for unitary local government.67
Election arrangements
33. A further recommendation in No stone unturned in pursuit of growth was that “local authority council members should be elected using the same electoral cycle across England where the whole council is elected at the same time every four years”.68 Lord Heseltine argued that “the cycles whereby a proportion of the leadership team change on an annual basis make anything but short term decision making difficult”.69 A similar recommendation was made by the Councillors Commission, which proposed that four- yearly all-out elections should become the norm, although, in contrast to Lord Heseltine’s “across England” proposal, it suggested that they “take place on well publicised regional election days”. 70 Dame Jane Roberts explained:
Some places do all-out elections; some do it in thirds. You never know quite who you are voting for, where and how. Wouldn’t it make more sense to have a local election day? Do it by region, not on a super Tuesday as in the States. Have local elections in that region. You would have a real razzmatazz about it. In some places on local election day, there is nothing there.71
Professor Michael Thrasher, Professor of Politics at Plymouth University, said that there was “strong evidence that whole council elections do encourage voter turnout”.72
Ward composition
34. A further structural issue raised with the Committee concerned the respective merits of single and multi-member wards. Robert Howard considered that
All councillors should represent single member wards because this will strengthen their role and position within the community or the cluster of communities / neighbourhoods which they represent. As a result, they are likely to become better known to more of their electorate and others whom they serve. Voters will, I believe, be more likely to engage in the political process by voting and attending meetings etc when they see that their councillor actually has the power to do things and can make decisions quickly.73
Dame Jane Roberts took the opposite view. She argued that having multi-member wards meant
that you can have a spread of people of different backgrounds, genders and skills. [...]
67 HC Deb, 12 November 2012, col 7 68 No stone unturned, p 56 69 As above 70 Representing the future, p 40 71 Q 19 72 Q 50 73 Ev 105, para 2.4
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For all sorts of reasons, it is much more sensible to have a multi-member ward. For example, I had a baby when I was a councillor. It meant it was possible for one of my co-ward councillors to do surgeries for a month, so I did not have to do it.74
When asked about single and multi-member wards, the Minister, Brandon Lewis, said:
I think that it is for those local authorities to take a view on what is right for them— they can do that. I know there are some local authorities that are looking at whether they want to change their set-up—from three to two or to one, as it were—and that is a matter for them to work through with the boundary commission.75
Structures and elections: conclusion
35. There may or may not be benefits for democratic engagement from councils moving to unitary status, altering their election arrangements or changing the number of councillors representing each ward. These are, however, issues that should be considered locally in consultation with communities according to the characteristics and needs of particular areas. We recommend that councils from time-to-time give formal consideration to their electoral arrangements, ward composition, and, in collaboration with other authorities in their areas, their structures. If, following such consideration they are minded to make a change, they may wish to request that the Secretary of State or the Local Government Boundary Commission for England initiate a review or, if within their powers, make the changes to the arrangements themselves.
74 Q 14 75 Q 433
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3 Representation and local democracy
36. If councillors are to play a much more active role in supporting and representing their communities, it is important to have councillors to whom the community can relate. The average age of a councillor in England is 60, 96% of councillors are white and only 31% are female.76 Professor Colin Copus and Dr Melvin Wingfield of De Montfort University supplied us with the results of a survey of councillors from 16 countries across Europe. This survey found that the UK had the oldest councillors of the countries surveyed, and was “in a league of its own” when it came to the percentage of councillors who are retired: 43.3% in the UK compared to 30.2% in France, the second highest country, and 3.5% in Spain, the country with the smallest percentage of councillors who are retired.77 With regard to the balance between male and female councillors, the survey found that the UK was “neither at the top or the bottom of the distribution”.78
37. Witnesses generally considered that it was important for the membership of local authorities to reflect as closely as possible the demographic make-up of the communities they represented. Dame Jane Roberts, the former Chair of the Councillors Commission, stated:
Unbalanced representation in councils compounds a sense that we are governed by a separate political class who look and talk very differently from “ordinary people”, that in turn distances people from an understanding of the political process and its importance, and can feed a destructive cynicism in politics.79
While such sentiments were echoed by a number of witnesses, others were less concerned.80 The District Councils’ Network said that “diversity is important, but not as important as having good, committed councillors willing to work hard to make a difference to their neighbourhood”,81 while Professor Copus warned that
Arguments for microcosmic representation appear to assume that only those who are from certain communities can undertake the task of representing them. Thus, the role of the councillor is not to represent the interests of the whole community, but the section of it from which the representative hails. That approach has serious implications for community cohesion as it displays a far more exclusive view of representation than has hitherto been the case. Indeed, a dangerous sectarianism could enter council chambers and party group meetings if diversity of recruitment is seen as an end in itself. [...] councillor diversity is [a] complex question which can
76 See para 4. 77 Ev 121. Professor Copus and Dr Wingfield state: “A note of caution must be added however, when reporting data from low response rate surveys; only new surveys and a larger response rate could confirm or refute the patterns that emerged from this survey”. 78 Ev 122 79 Ev 145, para 9.1. See also Ev w83, para 4.1 [NAVCA]. 80 See, for example, Qq 147–9 [Cllr Jeff Reid]. 81 Ev w23
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only be answered suitably by a careful consideration [of] what it is that the councillor as a representative is expected to represent.82
38. While much of the evidence on candidates focused on how a more diverse pool could be recruited, we also heard that there were places where finding any candidates could be difficult. Geoff Pryke, Delegated Nominating Officer for Wearside Liberal Democrats, which following the 2012 local elections no longer had any councillors on Sunderland City Council,83 told us that his local party’s selection process was “very simple: it is called coercion”.84 Cllr Robert Knowles, Leader of Waverley Borough Council, where the Conservative Party held all but one of the seats on the council,85 reflected:
I am sitting here very jealously, because I hear about all these selections. We run round a few days before the election trying to fill the gaps, and not only my party, because at the last election, out of 57, 19 were returned unopposed, including an 18- year-old woman in the no-hope seat for us, but unopposed.86
39. We consider it a matter of concern that the composition of many councils does not reflect that of the communities they serve. Clearly, we should not be looking for absolute “reflectiveness” (which would be impossible to achieve). We also accept that councillors do not necessarily have to come from a particular section of society to represent that section effectively. Nevertheless, healthy democracy depends upon different sections of society feeling a connection to those who represent them. It is, therefore, important to increase, for example, the numbers of women, younger people and black and minority ethnic people serving on local authorities, so that the membership of councils is better aligned to the make-up of the local populations they serve. Evidence presented to us suggested that there are areas where it can be difficult to find any candidates at all, and in these places the scale of the challenge will be all the greater. We will now consider what steps can be taken to increase the diversity of the councillor population.
The role of political parties
40. Evidence from the Elections Centre at Plymouth University states that “the under- representation of women, younger people and Black, Asian and other minority ethnic groups is as prevalent amongst candidates as it is amongst councillors”.87 This suggests to us that steps to promote the representativeness of councillors should be focused in the first instance upon ensuring there is a more diverse selection of candidates on the ballot paper. We heard that, following the 2012 English local elections, approximately 93% of all councillors were from one of the three main political parties.88 Therefore, these parties,
82 Ev 116, section 4 83 Q 167 84 Q 159 85 “2011 election results”, www.waverley.gov.uk 86 Q 300 87 Ev 173 88 Ev 117 [Professor Colin Copus]
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through the candidates they select, have significant influence over the composition of councils.
41. The national representatives of the three main political parties described the initiatives they had put in place to broaden the pool of candidates. Steve Hitchins, who leads the Liberal Democrats Be a Councillor programme, said that this programme had held 120 events around the country over the past six years. It was “designed to make people look outside the party membership, because we think that is too restrictive”.89 Robert Neill MP, the Conservative Party’s Vice Chairman, Local Government, said that his party was “doing more work to attract councillors from various ethnic minority communities”. He said that the party was working on a broader issue “about making sure we get support more deeply in ethnic minority communities in the UK as a piece”, which he hoped would “lead to an influence on our councillor numbers, but you have got to do it that way around rather than the other way around”.90 A local example of this work was given by Alan Wright, the Chairman of City of Sunderland Conservatives, who described his association’s work to engage with minority ethnic communities, including meetings with officials from the local Bangladeshi Community Centre.91 Olly Buston, the Labour Party’s Executive Director of Members and Supporters, described the party’s Future Candidates Programme which was “specifically designed to reach out to the widest possible group of people”. He said that “one hundred per cent. of the people on that scheme are not on those traditional paths to becoming a councillor”.92
42. At our discussion forum, however, a number of participants suggested that political parties preferred candidates with a long history of party activism.93 In Sunderland, Cllr Tom Wright, who has been closely involved in the selection of Labour Party candidates and has led work to bring forward candidates from under-represented groups, told us, quite reasonably, that he liked candidates “to have been in the party a couple of years” and “to have at least campaigned and delivered leaflets at one election”. He added that this was his personal view, not Labour Party policy.94
43. Some witnesses also suggested that the way local parties selected their candidates contributed to councils being unrepresentative. The Centre for Women and Democracy expressed a similar view, stating that “some members of all political parties mistakenly believe that women are an electoral liability, and select candidates accordingly”.95 Liz Richardson from the University of Manchester pointed to research about candidates for election to national political institutions, which she said indicated that the parties were “trying to second-guess what voters will stand”.96 She explained:
89 Q 361 90 Q 376 91 Q 163 92 Q 379 93 Annex, para 14 94 Q 173. Olly Buston said that “When people stand as Labour candidates, the rule is that they should have been a member of the party for a year, although there is scope to vary that locally in situations where there is a shortage of people coming forward”, Q 389. 95 Ev 166, para 3.4 96 Qq 28–9
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Where there are, for example, large minority ethnic populations parties are happier to put in minority ethnic candidates because they see that as a no brainer, but diversity candidates, if you want to call them that, are more likely to get “no hope” seats than winnable seats in other situations, because parties think that the electorate will not stand for someone who looks different.97
44. Our evidence also highlighted a lack of transparency in selection processes. Paul Wheeler, Director of the Political Skills Forum, said that where there was “a transparent and understandable selection process” parties were “able to attract a more diverse group of candidates”. However, he considered that these transparent processes were “largely confined to London Boroughs and other metropolitan areas” and “not widely taken up nationally and across parties”.98
45. The parties said that they were taking steps to address these issues. Steve Hitchins said that “a natural trait for any human being going into a room of complete strangers is to first approach someone who looks remarkably like them [...] Three white, middle-aged lawyers tend to select white, middle aged lawyers”. He said that it was necessary “to train people to widen their horizons” and that such training was “now part of the process wherever we have a selection panel”.99 Olly Buston said that through reforms to the Labour Party, “local campaign forums” were being established and were “specifically mandated with coming up with a recruitment strategy that pulls in the widest possible range of candidates”.100 Robert Neill said that it “was perhaps more the case in the past that parties were unwilling to be bold”; the Conservative Party now had a “standardised selection procedure and we have party professionals in the field who can make sure that that is properly policed”.101
46. Political parties form the backbone of our democratic system. If we are to see a significant increase in the proportion of councillors from currently under-represented groups, the three main parties together have an important (and probably the most important) role to play. We were pleased to see that the national parties were taking action to increase the number of candidates from under-represented groups and to encourage a broader pool of people to put themselves forward. We were also encouraged to hear that the parties had in place steps to address concerns raised with us about excessive caution and a lack of transparency in selection processes. However, while there are doubtless many examples of good practice, we did not see convincing evidence that party policies were being universally applied by local parties “on the ground”. The political parties must ensure that there are mechanisms in place to monitor the implementation of their national policies in all parts of the country, and that results are achieved.
97 Q 30 98 Ev 172 99 Q 382 100 As above 101 Q 380
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Looking beyond political parties
47. We heard that in seeking to broaden the diversity of candidates, political parties had to look beyond their current membership. It was suggested that the voluntary and community sector could be a good “hunting ground”.102 Cllr Lucinda Yeadon, Executive Member for Adult Social Care on Leeds City Council, who herself had a voluntary sector background, told us that the sector was “an excellent place to find people who are community-minded, community-spirited, and probably have a lot of the same values and ethos [...] that we should be encouraging”.103 In Sunderland, we heard from Cllr Dianne Snowdon, who had been a school governor and had fought the council to prevent the closure of the school. She said:
Once I got confidence in my role as school governor I got more politically aware and joined the Labour party late in life. I got involved and did eight years of grass-roots campaigning, and then went on to become a councillor.104
48. Cllr Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Leader of the Opposition on Hertfordshire County Council, said that there were some barriers to getting people from the voluntary sector to stand:
firstly, they do not want to be associated with one political party or another, or secondly, they believe they can get better things or more for their community or their community group by being outside of the political arena.105
The national political party representatives all told us that they were keen to recruit candidates from the voluntary sector.106 Parties could also look for potential candidates amongst the business community: at our discussion forum, it was observed that running a council had many similarities to running a business.107
Perceptions of party politics
49. Our evidence suggested that some people were put off by their perceptions of party politics. At the discussion forum, we were told that the “atmosphere” at party meetings could discourage people from involvement with a political party.108 The parenting website, Netmums, conducted a survey of its members. When asked why they were not interested in becoming a councillor, respondents variously referred to the “mudslinging” involved, the “bickering and posturing” between parties and their belief that politics was “male dominated”.109 In written evidence, Leslie Horne, who had thought about standing for
102 Q 233 [Cllr Stewart Golton], Q 234 [Cllr Lucinda Yeadon] 103 Q 234 104 Q118 105 Q 234 106 Q 389 107 Annex, para 51. See also Ev w68 [Cllr Lynda Jones]. 108 Annex, para 28 109 Ev w56–8
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election, said that “if you join one of the main political parties [...] freedom [of speech] is taken away as you have to comply with the [party’s] ideas even if you do not agree”.110
50. Being a councillor is not for everyone and some people will choose to serve their communities in other ways. Nevertheless, the values and skills involved in working in the voluntary sector or running a business will often reflect many of those required for service as a councillor. The political parties should initiate discussions with organisations representing the voluntary sector and business community to explore how they can work together to promote opportunities to stand for election. In addition, the parties should take steps to make themselves more open, for instance by creating a more welcoming atmosphere at meetings, so that people are not deterred by negative and possibly inaccurate perceptions of what being a party member entails.
Open primaries
51. One witness, Timothy J Oates, called for the political process to be opened up, stating that there “should be open primaries at every level with no artificial restrictions or meetings of the 'great and the good' behind closed doors, selecting candidates”.111 The Coalition Programme for Government commits the Government to funding 200 all-postal primaries over the current Parliament, aimed at parliamentary seats that have not changed hands for many years.112 Robert Neill, the Conservative Party’s Vice Chairman, Local Government, said that he had “no objection to the principle of open primaries”, and that while the party “would have to look at the practicality” he did “not rule out the idea”.113
Positive action
52. The Centre for Women and Democracy supported “positive action” as a means of increasing the number of female councillors. It pointed to the result of the Labour Party’s positive action policy, noting that “in 2003 only 23% of Labour’s candidates were women, whereas in 2012 this figure had risen to 41%”. By contrast, it said that “the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties have both rejected positive action for the time being at least, and their proportion of women candidates has remained more or less unchanged over the same period”.114
53. Amongst the participants at our discussion forum, there were some strong supporters of positive action, who argued it was a necessity in some communities to stop councils being predominately male. Other participants, however, argued that it was anti-democratic and that it undermined councillors to be selected on the basis of the gender, age or ethnicity, rather than their merits.115
110 Ev w36 111 Ev w40 112 The Coalition: Our Programme for Government, p 27 113 Q 381 114 Ev 168, para 3.23. See also Q 292 [Nan Sloane] and Ev 165, ES7, Ev 166, para 2.3 and Ev 167, para 3.9. 115 Annex, paras 37–38
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54. Steve Hitchins said that he was personally in favour of positive action, but that it had been rejected “on at least three occasions” by the Liberal Democrat party conference.116 He added that the Liberal Democrats did “have quotas on shortlists, so although that is not positive action in candidates, it is on shortlists”.117 Robert Neill said that it was the Conservative Party’s belief
that you want the best people coming forward, regardless of gender or ethnicity. I do think that is a very important principle and we should not restrict the choice of the selectorate in that way [through positive action].118
He said, however, that the party did “have quotas in relation to parliamentary shortlists”.119
55. There are a number of approaches the political parties could take to increasing the diversity of the candidates they select. We are not advocating particular approaches but rather that parties should actively consider the options available. These options could include the use of open primaries, and the introduction of positive action policies.
Independent councillors
56. Joining a political party is not the only route to becoming a councillor and there is a case for encouraging more people to stand as independents. As Professor Copus pointed out, the “most under-represented group of people in local government and among councillors are those that are not members of the three main political parties”.120 We heard from independent councillors who had stood for election after campaigning on particular local issues. Cllr Colin Wakefield, Leader of the Independent Group on Sunderland City Council, had led a group of local residents opposed to a landfill site. He said:
In many local issues ‘independent’ is quite often the right way to go. There is not a political dimension if you need a zebra crossing or something like that; there is or is not a need. That was how I got involved.121
Cllr Marianne Overton, an independent councillor on Lincolnshire County and North Kesteven District Councils, had stood for election because the community was concerned about the sitting councillor’s lack of support for a bypass.122 She considered that more could be done to encourage people to stand as independents:
One way is to make sure that people do understand what a councillor can do and what difference they can make. If there are some good examples, they should be publicised in the press or in newsletters or on Facebook; anywhere. [...] If there are barriers like unfair press coverage, which we sometimes see, particularly during election time, that does make it very difficult. Many of the independents have
116 Q 386 117 As above 118 As above 119 Q 387 120 Ev 117 121 Q 118 122 Q 304
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networks to try to encourage others to come forward, and even to do some training prior to standing as well [...] It is really just about making sure that there is an open door and trying to provide a level playing field.123
The role of local government: promoting local democracy
57. While it was argued that the political parties had the greatest role to play in bringing forward more diverse candidates, witnesses also considered there was a role, albeit a less direct one, for local authorities. Liz Richardson stated:
one area for development is the role of local authorities in recruiting potential candidates. There is already a high level of activity by councils to support local democracy [...] In recent years, there have also been tentative moves towards active ‘marketing’ of becoming a councillor by councils, although these have suffered from a reluctance to talk about the roles for political parties. Despite all of this, there are still strong underlying objections by officers in authorities to intervening in recruitment which hinder more extensive promotional work.124
58. A number of witnesses considered that councils’ focus should be upon the promotion of local democracy. The first principle established by the Councillors Commission was that “local authorities are key to promoting local democratic engagement”.125 Dame Jane Roberts explained in written evidence that the Commission was concerned “about the lack of understanding about local government and what councillors do, let alone about how to become a councillor”.126 Evidence from Leeds City Council and the Commission on the Future of Local Government raised the “image of local government” and said that “many examples and stories of excellent public service need to be told, including by using new forms of more personalised and direct communications, to restore public faith in local government and democracy”.127 Desmond Jaddoo, who works with communities in Birmingham, expressed a similar point saying that during the recent mayoral campaign “various issues concerning the engagement, voter apathy, lack of understanding, image, and distancing between the people and Local Government were clearly highlighted”.128 Cllr Rowan Draper, from Stafford Borough Council, referred to the need for “citizenship education, not only in schools, but perhaps county councils and borough councils should be doing that as part of their offer to residents”.129
Duty to promote democracy
59. The Councillors Commission’s concerns about a lack of understanding of local government led it to recommend that local authorities “be charged with a statutory duty to
123 Q 315 124 Ev 161 125 Representing the Future, p 5 126 Ev 146 127 Ev 176 128 Ev w41 129 Q 307
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facilitate local democratic engagement”.130 Such a duty was provided for in the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009;131 however, the previous Government chose not to implement the provision immediately,132 and it was subsequently repealed in the Localism Act 2011.133 Brandon Lewis, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, told us that the decision to repeal the duty
comes back to the line between the Government directing local government about what to do. If we are going to have localism, let local authorities develop what they think is right for their area and then promote it. Good local authorities and good councils would want to do that.134
Cllr Robert Gordon, Leader of Hertfordshire County Council, said that he was “very happy not to be under a duty and to exercise our own discretion locally”.135
Targeting under-represented groups
60. On the steps councils take to promote local democracy, the Association of Democratic Services Officers said that publicity was “often targeted in particular at the under- represented sections of the community to encourage members of those communities to think about standing for public office” and that youth parliaments and school councils were used as a way to engage young people.136 Participants at our discussion forum also referred to the benefits of youth councils and similar forums, and considered social media to be another effective channel for reaching out to young people.137 Earlier in this report, we established that active and visible councillors could become role models for others in the community, encouraging them to take an interest in local government.138
61. Local authorities should be actively promoting democratic engagement and explaining to the public what the role of councillor entails. The repeal of the Duty to Promote Democracy should be a spur to show that councils can develop and implement their own approaches to the promotion of local democracy, without the need for central government direction. We understand that local government is currently facing significant budgetary constraints. Nevertheless, we encourage all councils to put in place strategies for democratic engagement, in accordance with their local circumstances. These strategies should include a focus on engagement with under- represented and hard-to-reach groups. In particular, councils should be taking steps to promote the active involvement of young people.
130 Representing the Future, p 58 131 Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, Part 1, chapter 1 132 HC Deb, 16 December 2009, col 1288W [Rt Hon Rosie Winterton MP] 133 Localism Act 2011, section 45 134 Q 398 135 Q 229 136 Ev w77, para 6.3. See also Ev w23 [District Councils’ Network]. 137 Annex, paras 33–34 138 See para 15.
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Be a Councillor programme
62. The Local Government Association (LGA), in its written evidence, described the Be a Councillor programme that it had initiated:
Only by encouraging the brightest stars to stand for election can we ensure that councils are able to do the best for their communities. [...]
The LGA is encouraging everyone to play their part in ‘talent spotting’—actively looking out for committed, enthusiastic people who could make great councillors. We have been working with councillors, those involved in the formal selection process, and also active party members keen to initiate change. They all have an important role to play. There has been a considerable amount of work with the political parties to find ways to encourage more people from a range of backgrounds to stand to be councillors in ways that reflect the parties’ values and traditions.
To raise public awareness the LGA has produced a free toolkit of materials for councils to use, or edit to fit their local campaigns. Ultimately, it is the electorate that decides who becomes a councillor, but we can all help to raise the quality of the candidates they choose from.139
The three main political parties are all engaged in the work of the Be a Councillor programme.140
63. Paul Wheeler expressed support for the work of Be a Councillor,141 and proposed the creation of a “Local Democracy Advocacy Organisation”. He said that such an organisation could “encourage more people to consider standing for election as elected representatives at all levels” and “could take over and expand the current LGA Be a Councillor Programme”.142 He explained that there were already equivalent bodies at the national level,
such as Industry and Parliament Trust which is supported by a large number of commercial organizations to encourage those with business experience to stand as MPs [...] Equally the Hansard Society has a mission to promote parliamentary democracy and the work of Parliament. On an international level the Westminster Foundation encourages best practice and innovation amongst political parties in emerging democracies.
A Local Democracy Foundation could replicate the beneficial features of all these organizations for the specific promotion of local democracy in England. It could be funded from existing funds designated for leadership improvement and capacity building in local government.143
64. The Local Government Association (LGA) deserves credit for its work on the Be a Councillor programme, which is playing an important role in encouraging a wider
139 Ev 156, section 4.3 140 Qq 369–372 [Steve Hitchins, Olly Buston and Robert Neill MP] 141 Q 287 142 Ev 172-3 143 Ev 172
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group of people to stand at local elections. We welcome the political parties’ engagement in the programme. We note the suggestion for the creation of a Local Democracy Advocacy Organisation that could take over and expand the programme. While there is merit in this idea, we are wary of recommending the setting up of a new organisation, which could be expensive and time consuming. We would, however, encourage the LGA to expand the Be a Councillor programme, under its established branding, to enable it to play a wider role in the promotion of local democracy. The expanded Be a Councillor programme could take steps to share good practice from councils’ approaches to promoting democratic engagement. Steps to popularise the idea of becoming a councillor should be actively considered.
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4 Barriers to becoming and remaining a councillor
65. Furthering the promotion of local democracy, doing more to market the role of councillor, and making changes to the way candidates are selected could all help to make councillors more representative of the communities they serve, but there may also be more practical reasons for people choosing not to stand. In this chapter, we will look at the barriers to becoming a councillor, and also why some councillors, having been elected, choose not to seek a second term. As Cllr Peter Fleming, Chair of the Local Government Association’s Improvement Board, suggested, “we really need to concentrate on [...] not just ‘be a councillor’ but ‘stay a councillor’”.144
Time commitment
66. A number of witnesses raised concerns about the time commitment involved in being a councillor. Cllr Robert Knowles, Leader of Waverley Borough Council, said that e-mail placed a particularly acute demand upon councillors’ time:
A major demand on members’ time is e-mail. It is easy to circulate many emails to a large list of councillors, even 10 years ago this pressure was not there. It is easy to ping an email, when writing and posting a letter took mature thought and action. Members have no secretarial support and can spend many hours each day on email traffic.145
Other councillors agreed that it was very hard to find the time, particularly for those in full time work.146 Cllr Simon Killane, from Wiltshire Council, referred to being
stuck up in my attic at three o’clock in the morning dealing with a production line of hundreds of emails, trying to cope with these documents and stuff that comes at short notice, knowing that the officers are paid sometimes very large salaries, have pensions, have security, while I am doing it on a shoestring budget.147
In Sunderland, Cllr David Tate, when asked how the role of councillor had changed since he had first been elected in 1979, said that it was now “massively more involved”.148
67. The time commitment made it particularly hard for people from certain groups to serve as councillors. Nan Sloane, Director of the Centre for Women and Democracy, described how it was especially hard for women to find the time:
I think most women find, as indeed Margaret Thatcher found and said, that you can do two things at once but not three: you can have a job and be a councillor; you can
144 Q 71 145 Ev 188 146 See, for example, Annex, para 41 and Ev 182-4 [Cllr Alycia James]. 147 Q 337 148 Q 125. See also Ev w81, para 2.3 [NAVCA].
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have a job and a family or be responsible for a family; you can be a councillor and be responsible for a family; but it is extraordinarily difficult to do all three at the same time.149
At our discussion forum, we heard that younger people and those in their thirties struggled to find the time to combine being a councillor with their work, study or family commitments. Some councillors stood down at the end of their twenties to focus upon their career or family, and consequently there were often few councillors in their thirties or early forties.150 The survey conducted by Professor Colin Copus and Dr Melvin Wingfield explored why councillors planning to leave the council had decided to step down. Professor Copus and Dr Wingfield stated:
What the responses indicate is that councillors intending to leave the council appear to be doing so to ‘spend more time with their families’ (or their jobs). In other words, council duties are a time consuming set of responsibilities and maybe too demanding for some, given that the office is not full-time and paid in the same way as a salaried occupation. Although, leaving the council to concentrate on a professional occupation is not such a great motivator, so what we are seeing here is a reaction to the time demands of council work.151
68. Robert Howard, a political and community activist who had previously served as a councillor, called for councillors to be given a paid assistant:
Ideally, every councillor should be able to appoint a part-time remunerated 'Councillor's Assistant' to assist them with casework, research and to act as clerk to their ward forum(s) in the absence of an existing parish or town council. This person would be akin to a town council manager or parish clerk. In other words, non- political and able to serve successive councillors while, in the process, building up a bank of local ward knowledge of invaluable benefit not just to the ward councillor, but to the community as a whole. This person would be paid the same as the ward councillor.152
Cllr Alycia James, from Lancaster City Council, said that she would not want a “full caseworker” but would like:
Perhaps being able to sometimes say—I suppose it is a caseworker to an extent— “This is what I want; a response doing to the person,” but to still be in complete control. I do not want to lose that input with the residents, but there are some, very routine things that come up that could almost be dealt with by somebody else.153
69. Brandon Lewis, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, considered it a matter for local authorities whether or not to give councillors a caseworker. He said:
149 Q 271 150 Annex, para 40 151 Ev 143 152 Ev 107, para 6.1 153 Qq 334–5
32 Councillors on the frontline
If they feel that is something that is right for them and they can afford to do it, it is a judgment call for the local authority, but it sounds like a very expensive route to go down to me.154
70. We found the Minister’s response disappointing. The role of councillor is becoming increasingly demanding, with casework and e-mail creating particular pressures. Changes to the role of councillor are likely to create further demands on councillors’ time. More than ever, they need additional support to help them with their workload. Councils should consider assigning to each councillor an officer who can assist them in managing their casework. In smaller authorities, this officer may be shared between a number of councillors.
Employers
71. Another aspect of the time commitment required of councillors is the extent to which employers support councillors with time off work to fulfil their duties. We heard that some employers, particularly large corporations, were good at giving their staff support but that it was not so easy for smaller businesses.155 At the discussion forum, we heard that some employers were reluctant to employ councillors and that some employment agencies would not put councillors on their books. One participant was unemployed and reported a detrimental effect on employment prospects through being a councillor.156 Cllr James described to us advice from the Job Centre where she was told:
Take off that; take off that; ‘Deputy Leader’, no; ‘Vice Chair’, no. Make it look like you are not really doing anything in the council. Make it look like you have lots of time for them and nothing for the council.157
72. The Councillors Commission proposed the establishment of a local government administered scheme to compensate small businesses.158 Some participants at the discussion forum also expressed support for a compensation scheme, but it was not clear whether this would necessarily help small businesses. Generally these companies needed their employees’ time. It was unlikely they would be able to afford to hire replacement staff even with the money reimbursed.159
73. Brandon Lewis said that he had not looked at the possibility of a compensation scheme, and what he would “much rather councils do, which would be far more cost-effective and time-effective, is look at how they can run their meetings so that councillors involved in that council can be part of it”.160 We agree that, whenever possible, councils should arrange meetings at times that best suit their councillors. But this is not always straightforward: while evening meetings are usually more convenient for councillors in employment, other
154 Q 430 155 Ev 172 and Q 274 [Paul Wheeler] 156 Annex, para 45 157 Q 324 158 Representing the Future, p 53 159 Annex, para 46 160 Q 424. For an example of a council’s approach, see Ev w70 [Cllr Lynda Jones].
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councillors, especially those with young families, find it easier to attend meetings during the day.161 It might be necessary to alternate meetings between different times of the day.
74. Paul Wheeler, Director of the Political Skills Forum, referred to the need to see being a councillor as “a form of public service”. He recalled that when the Local Government Association had sponsored a Good Employer Award in the past
there were a lot of firms, particularly in the north of England, who said, “Having a councillor is a sign of civic pride, a bit like having a brass band, and we support that.” I think it was the Redcar Mining Company: when one of their employees became the mayor, they gave him a year off on full pay, saying, “This is a tremendous tribute to us and the town.”162
75. The Government is currently considering ways in which employers can be encouraged to support military reservists. The Secretary of State for Defence, Rt Hon Philip Hammond MP, when launching a Green Paper on the future of the reserve forces, Future Reserves 2020: Delivering the Nation’s Security Together, said that he looked forward to
exploring further with businesses of all sizes how we could better recognise the support they give to our armed forces, perhaps through a kitemark-style national recognition scheme for reserve-friendly employers, or possibly through the use of targeted financial incentives for smaller employers.163
While there are differences between releasing staff for a period of military service and giving them more frequent time off to perform their duties as a councillor, the principles— supporting employees to provide a public service—are similar. The Ministry of Defence is giving serious consideration to the ways in which employers can be encouraged to support military reservists. The Department for Communities and Local Government should conduct a similar review. We recommend that the Government consult on how employers can be encouraged to provide support to their staff who serve as councillors. Options that might be considered include a kitemark-style recognition scheme and the introduction of a financial incentive scheme.
Remuneration
76. We heard that a further barrier to people becoming and remaining councillors was the level of remuneration available.164 A number of witnesses emphasised that people did not become councillors “for the money”,165 but there were concerns that people were deterred because they did not consider the allowance to provide sufficient compensation for their time. Cllr Robert Gordon, Leader of Hertfordshire County Council, for instance, told us that
161 See, for example, Q 240 [Cllr Robert Gordon]. 162 Q 274 163 HC Deb, 8 November 2012, col 1027 164 Local authorities are required to make a scheme of allowances for their members and to have regard to the recommendations of an independent remuneration panel before making the scheme. 165 Ev w24 [District Councils’ Network]; Ev 183 [Cllr Alycia James]; Qq 155–6 [Cllrs Jeff Reid and Judith Wallace]
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Allowances now for front-line councillors, certainly for leading councillors, are high enough to offend the public but not high enough to encourage any sane person to give up their career and earning capacity to take it on.166
Cllr Robert Knowles said that he had found allowances to be a deterrent to potential candidates coming forward:
When we recruited last year we held an evening in the council chamber for anyone who was interested. A lot of people came and somebody dared to ask the question, “What is the allowance?” and once they were told, you could see their faces drop, and nobody who came to that meeting stood for council.167
77. Participants at our discussion forum suggested that councillors were reluctant to vote for an increase in allowances because they were conscious of a negative reaction in the media and amongst the public.168 Cllr Golton, Leader of the Liberal Democrat Group on Leeds City Council, said that in his authority, councillors did “not always take [the independent panel’s] advice, because [...] you will always be portrayed as voting for a pay rise”.169 Cllr Knowles told us that “without any doubt whatsoever” councils were too afraid of public opinion to increase allowances. He said that “whenever the review panel comes up with figures, it is always refused, because the time is not right”.170 Consequently, the annual allowance in his district was £2,454,171 although there was an intention to increase allowances “significantly” in the coming year.172
78. There is a case for addressing this issue by taking decisions about allowances out of councillors’ hands. One option would be to determine allowances in accordance with a national framework. Dame Jane Roberts, who chaired the Councillors Commission, told us that the Commission had recommended a “national framework of guiding principles for member allowances, suggesting a national minimum basic allowance for each type and size of authority, and a carer’s allowance”.173 We heard some support for the standardisation of allowances,174 but others considered that remuneration should be determined locally.175
79. Another option for taking decisions about allowances away from councillors, but one which maintains local decision making, would be to give councils the power to appoint an external body, not only to advise on allowances but to make binding decisions. The Minister, Brandon Lewis, wrote to us following oral evidence with his response to this suggestion:
166 Q 235 167 Q 276 168 Annex, para 54 169 Q 268 170 Q 276 171 Q 280 172 Qq 277–8 173 Ev 146, para 10.4 174 Ev 179, para 2.7 [Cllr Rowan Draper] and Ev w58 [note of Local Government Association seminar] 175 Ev w59 [note of Local Government Association seminar]
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I am clear that the allowances are and should be a local matter, and that authorities themselves are best placed to consider what is appropriate in their circumstances. [...] If the proposal was that each authority should establish an independent panel, or use its existing panel, to decide allowances, then [...] it remains my view that it is best for the councillors themselves [...] to take the final view on what are appropriate allowances in all the circumstances of their council.176
80. Amongst the ideas raised at our discussion forum was the suggestion that employed councillors receive loss of earnings compensation instead of an allowance. 177 It appears to us that employed councillors could lose out on income if they take time off work to perform their councillor duties and therefore have a greater dependence on their allowances than, for example, retired councillors. Providing an element of loss of earnings compensation with the allowance could help to address this issue. Mr Lewis appeared not to favour this suggestion:
Being a councillor is a voluntary public service; it is not a salaried job.
In principle, councillors are already compensated for loss of earnings as allowances are intended to ensure that councillors are not out-of-pocket as a result of their public duties. The existing guidance states that the basic allowance, which all councillors receive, is intended to recognise the time commitment of all councillors, including such inevitable calls on their time as meetings with officers and constituents and attendance at political group meetings.178
81. Being a councillor is a form of public service, and people do not become councillors for the money. Nevertheless, as being a councillor becomes more demanding and the time commitment greater, those becoming councillors have a right to expect an appropriate level of compensation, especially if they have to take time off work to carry out their duties. The levels of allowances currently offered by many councils, at best, do not encourage and, at worst, deter capable people from standing for election. The problem is exacerbated because councils are reluctant to vote for an increase for fear of the media and public reaction. We agree that decisions about allowances are best made locally, but consider that they should be taken out of councillors’ hands. We recommend that the Government give councils the ability to transfer responsibility for setting allowances to independent local bodies. Unlike the current panels, which can only make recommendations, these bodies would make decisions about levels of allowances that councils would be required to accept. It would be inconsistent for Parliament to deny councils the option it has chosen for the determination of its own pay and conditions.
82. It is important to consider in particular those councillors who lose out on earnings when taking time off work to perform their duties. It is unfair that for these councillors the allowance is an essential part of their livelihood, while others receive it on top of their income. We recommend that the Government give councils (or, if the recommendation above is accepted, local allowance bodies) the power to include a capped element to
176 Ev 186 177 Annex, para 53 178 Ev 187
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compensate for loss of earnings as part of a councillor’s allowance. This would address our concern about the current situation, where a large proportion of councillors are retired and do not have the same need as employed councillors to increase allowances. Allowances therefore remain low and act as a deterrent for those considering whether to stand for election in future. The current arrangements become self-perpetuating.
83. Although the Minister insisted that decisions about allowances were a matter for local determination, he nevertheless appeared to criticise Cornwall Council in light of reports of a proposal to increase allowances by 20%:
In the current climate, that is a very unusual decision to be looking to take. Councils should be looking quite carefully at that, particularly at a time when every household is squeezed. If we are looking at councils to play their part and then they put up allowances, there is a question mark.179
84. We are concerned at the inconsistency in the Minister’s position on allowances. On the one hand, he insisted that the setting of allowances was a matter for local determination. On the other hand, he was prepared to question a decision on allowances that a local authority had quite legitimately taken. This inconsistency illustrates our concerns about “guided localism”. Councils should be free to exercise their decision-making power without facing criticism whenever Ministers disagree with the decisions they make.
179 Q 408
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5 Councillor performance and training
85. As the roles of councillors change, and they face ever increasing demands and expectations, it is important that there are appropriate mechanisms in place for supporting their performance and training them in the skills they need. In this chapter, we will consider these issues, looking first at the performance of councillors before examining current training provision and how this may need to change.
86. Paul Wheeler, Director of the Political Skills Forum, said that there was a need
to acknowledge that some councillors do the bare minimum of work but because they represent safe wards they are immune from electoral pressure and can act as ‘political bed-blockers’.180
He suggested that there should be performance measurement in place and pointed to a performance reporting form produced by Oldham Council, which councillors completed with details of their activities over the past year and which was published on the internet.181 Mr Wheeler argued that, with this information, “the party members and wider audience at the selection and election stage can decide if their existing councillors have reached appropriate levels of performance and activity”.182 He also suggested that we consider “whether the current requirement for councillor activity (one committee meeting per cycle) before disqualification is sufficient”.183
87. The representatives of the three main political parties all referred to contracts between the party and the councillor. Robert Neill, the Conservative Party’s Vice Chairman, Local Government, said that the party had recently “introduced into our standard selection process an ‘agreement to stand’, which all Conservative councillor candidates have to sign up to”.184 Olly Buston, Executive Director of Members and Supporters for the Labour Party, said that its councillor contracts were a “relatively new innovation over the last few months in terms of being party policy, but they very much build on best practice that has been happening across the country for many years and in many places”.185 Steve Hitchins, representing the Liberal Democrats, said that because of his party’s devolved structure, there was “no hard and fast set of rules” but that the party had been “getting candidates to sign contracts as long ago as 1998, and since then they have been part of the Be a Councillor programme [...] as a firm recommendation”.186 All three parties also said that their candidates did not have a right to automatic reselection.187 Steve Hitchins told us that
180 Ev 171 181 Reports available at: www.oldham.gov.uk/info/200740/councillor_annual_reports 182 Ev 172 183 As above 184 Q 357 185 Q 358 186 Q 358 187 Qq 393–4
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within the Liberal Democrats, “the contracts are increasingly being used as a tool in re- selection”.188
88. Most councillors do an excellent job and work very hard to serve their community. There are, however, some instances where councillors do little work and, because they represent safe seats, have little incentive to do more. We believe that there should be measures in place to deal with under-performance. We were pleased to hear about the steps political parties were taking to put in place councillor contracts. As we have already observed, it is important that the commitments made by political parties at a national level are translated into action on the ground. We urge the parties to ensure arrangements are in place for the active monitoring of contracts. Moreover, before deciding to reselect a councillor, local parties should give thorough consideration to the councillor’s performance over the previous term.
89. There is also a role for local authorities. We encourage local authorities to put in place light touch arrangements for reporting councillor performance. As part of this, councillors could be asked to complete a brief annual self-assessment to be made public in an accessible format. This should cover not only attendance at formal meetings, but also details of the work councillors have carried out within their communities.
Training
Skills
90. In Chapter 2, we established that the councillor’s role was changing and becoming much more community-focused. Witnesses have argued that the training provided to councillors has to change in line with this. The Association of Democratic Services Officers (ADSO) referred to a survey of councils it had conducted, which found that councils were placing
an emphasis not only on essential knowledge required to be a councillor, but also on the ‘softer’ skills necessary for successful community leaders such as communication, listening, networking, dealing with challenging situations/people, negotiating, facilitating, managing and ensuring change, plus team building skills.189
Hertfordshire County Council told us that member training had been re-examined in light of its councillors’ changing role and that “communication and consultation skills and techniques needed to engage with their local communities are being emphasised to enable councillors to be successful as social activists”.190
91. We heard that it was important for all councillors to have these “softer”, frontline skills. Witnesses also described the need for councillors to receive training in other areas, depending on their particular role. Cllr Robert Oliver, Leader of the Conservative Group on Sunderland City Council, said:
188 Q 393 189 Ev w75–76, para 4.7 190 Ev 158
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being leader of the majority party in opposition the main focus of my work is scrutiny of the council’s policy. Most of the training in terms of information comes from the Conservative Party. An important role of your party is to provide that information to you. As far as [this] concerns council officers, what you can expect from them is factual information, memos and asking questions about things. That has been good.191
Tim Gilling, Acting Executive Director of the Centre for Public Scrutiny, described the need for scrutiny councillors to be skilled in data analysis, as well as “softer [skills] that councillors will use outside” the formal scrutiny environment.192 Cllr Robert Knowles, Leader of Waverley Borough Council, referred to the importance of training for councillors who sat on statutory committees such as planning and licensing. He said that, as Leader, he would not allow councillors to sit on these committees unless they had received the necessary training.193
92. A further area for training was in helping councillors to understand the implications of particular Government policies. Staffordshire County Council referred to the training it provided to raise councillors’ “awareness of key policy developments such as Public Health responsibilities transferring back to local authorities”.194 Cllr Richard Kemp, Director of the Liberal Democrats Winning with Localism operation, referred to the need for councillors to be supported to take advantage of the opportunities offered by the Localism Act 2011. He described the quality of training provided by councils and others on this issue as “dire”.195
Providers of training
93. Currently, training for councillors is provided by a range of organisations, including councils themselves, political parties, the Local Government Association (LGA), the Centre for Public Scrutiny and regional organisations such as West Midlands Councils. We heard that some of this training was well-received, and our evidence was particularly positive about that provided by the LGA.196
94. There was, however, a more mixed view about training provided by political parties. Paul Wheeler said that
with the exception of the Liberal Democrats the political parties are dreadful. They just take councillors’ money and give them nothing in return, so the LGA have filled the gap [...] I do think the parties have to completely change their approach, because these are the frontlines of politics and I think the councillors have to take them seriously.197
191 Q 112 192 Q 81 193 Q 302 194 Ev w15 195 Ev w39 196 See, for example, Qq 343–345 [Cllr Alycia James], Ev w59 [seminar participants], Ev w79 [Jack Hopkins]. 197 Q 302
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Cllr Knowles agreed, saying that training from the parties “stops the day that you are elected, and I think that is poor”.198 Olly Buston accepted that, while there were many training opportunities available, the Labour Party
could do an awful lot more, particularly in terms of identifying people’s particular needs and co-ordinating how people access all that diversity of training and signposting and flagging appropriate things for people.199
He said that to address this issue, his party was piloting a councillor diploma to provide “a more tailored, co-ordinated approach that builds from the individual outwards”. 200 Robert Neill said that the Conservative Party did “quite a lot of training” and added that
it is in the party’s interest to make sure it has councillors who perform, because they are going to be more likely to be re-elected at the end of the day and they will also have done a better job for their communities in the process.201
95. The role of councillors is varied, and it is important that training provision reflects this. We encourage political parties, local authorities and other bodies to review the training they offer to ensure it meets the needs of councillors. In particular, training should reflect the changing roles of councillors, and ensure that councillors understand the implications of the Localism Act 2011 and other new legislation. However, councillors themselves must ultimately be responsible for ensuring they have the skills they need to carry out their duties. We suggest that, as part of the performance reporting process we propose above, councillors make public details of any training they have completed in the course of the preceding year. Training should be seen as a benefit, not a cost, to local taxpayers.
Member development budgets
96. Given the funding reductions they are facing, there may be a temptation amongst councils to reduce the training and support provided to members. ADSO’s survey of 52 local authorities found that “38 have ring fenced their budgets for member development in recent years. Seven have increased them and seven have reduced them”.202 However, ADSO noted that the figures did not
tell us whether staffing support in relation to member development has been reduced. ADSO’s experience is that it has. National and regional associations are cutting back on their member support roles. Staff numbers are being reduced within local authorities, posts are being merged and there is undoubtedly less staffing support for member development than previously.203
198 Q 302 199 Q 392 200 As above 201 As above 202 Ev w74, para 3.1 203 Ev w74, para 3.3
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It said that, while this reduction in staffing was “attributed to budget cuts, this could also be seen as a reflection on the priority (or that lack of it) which some councils afford to member development”.204
97. On the one hand, we are encouraged that a number of councils have chosen to ring fence their member development budgets; on the other hand, we are concerned by reports that the staffing to support this member development is being reduced in a number of authorities. While we recognise the budgetary pressures councils are under, we consider it essential that they ensure that there are sufficient resources to meet their members’ development needs. Without training and development, councillors’ effectiveness and job satisfaction will suffer.
98. At a time when councillors are being called on to make increasingly difficult decisions about service reductions and budget priorities, this is not the moment to reduce their ability to undertake these vital tasks. Councillors have more need than ever for the support and resources to enable them to fulfil their decision-making and scrutiny roles.
Training before election
99. We also heard that it was important for training to be provided prior to election. The Centre for Women and Democracy stated:
Women are particularly likely to take the view that, before taking on the commitments of public office, they should get some training. This is sometimes viewed as a weakness or a sign of lack of confidence; in fact, given the complexities of modern local government and the enormous sums of public money involved, it is more of a strength, and political parties should all be doing more to try to meet this need (for men as well as for women; women are simply more likely to articulate it).205
A lack of knowledge about local government and its activities was cited as one of the reasons people did not stand for election.206 Giving people some knowledge of what the role of councillor might entail could help to bring potential candidates forward.
100. Training should be provided to potential candidates before they stand for election, to give them some knowledge of what they can expect from being a councillor. We encourage councils and political parties to work together to organise “taster courses” and briefing sessions for those considering standing for election.
204 Ev w74, para 3.3 205 Ev 167, para 3.13 206 See, for example, Ev 155 [Local Government Association], para 4.2.3.
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6 Conclusion
101. The role of councillors is changing and becoming more community-focused. In this inquiry, we have heard some excellent examples of the way councils have been responding to localism, devolving power to their councillors and helping them to respond more effectively to their constituents’ needs. We have also heard about the tireless efforts of individual councillors. We pay tribute to the councillors across the country who are working hard for their communities, speaking up for them, addressing their problems and concerns, helping them get projects off the ground, and working with other organisations to ensure people get the representation they need. We encourage all councils and councillors to look at what others are doing, and see what can be learnt.
102. Moves to bring councillors closer to their communities raise challenges. For too long, council chambers have been dominated by a particular sub-set of the population; too little has been done to change this state of affairs. Constituents should be able to look at their councillors and see people like them. We therefore need to increase the number of women, younger people, black and minority ethnic people, and those from other under-represented groups serving on local authorities. This task will not be easy. It requires political parties to change their cultures; it requires local authorities to take active steps to promote local democratic engagement. There are already signs that this is starting to happen, but it needs to happen more quickly.
103. Steps are also needed to address some of the practical barriers to people standing for election. We need to give councillors support so that their duties do not overwhelm or intimidate them. We have to consider how employers can be incentivised to give support to, and be proud of, their staff who serve as councillors. Moreover, we cannot shy away from the issue of remuneration: allowances need to be sufficient to recognise that councillors sacrifice not only a significant amount of time, but often part of their earnings as well.
104. Finally, the more community-focused role of councillors makes it all the more important to have high-performing, effective councillors. The public have a right to know how their councillors are performing, and local political parties, before reselecting councillors, should consider what they have achieved during their term of office. Training needs to be adapted to the way councillors’ duties are changing.
105. Councillors should be at the centre of community life, well known and respected by those they represent, and empowered to effect change within their local areas. We believe that, in future, all councillors should be on the frontline: central government, political parties, local authorities and, above all, councillors themselves have to play their part in achieving this ambition. Democracy at all levels depends on the health of its councillor base.
Councillors on the frontline 43
Annex: Communities and Local Government Committee Discussion Forum
Portcullis House, Monday, 17 September 2012
Councillors and the Community
Background
1. The Houses of Parliament Outreach Service was approached by the Communities and Local Government Committee who wanted to engage with the public as part of their Councillors and the Community inquiry.1
2. The Committee wanted to learn more about why people chose, or chose not, to stand at local elections. The Committee particularly wanted to hear from people from a range of backgrounds, who had either had experience as a councillor, had wanted to be a candidate or had considered being a councillor but decided not to stand.
3. The Outreach Service organised an event with 31 people, who had been identified and contacted using the Outreach Service’s Customer Relationship Management database. Of these 31 participants, eight were currently councillors and two had previously been councillors. In addition, 16 of the attendees were women and 12 of the attendees were from BME backgrounds. There were also individuals from the Workers Educational Association, Friends, Families and Travellers and the Federation of Small Businesses.
4. This event took place on Monday, 17 September 2012 at Westminster and was attended by seven members of the Communities and Local Government Committee.2 The event included a short introduction to the work of the Committee by the Committee Chair, Mr Clive Betts MP. The group was then divided into seven smaller groups where members of the Committee chaired discussions on four different themes. These themes are explained in the paragraphs below.
5. The evidence submitted below is a note of those discussions and represents the views of the attendees.
Discussion groups
6. Attendees were divided into seven groups, and were allocated by the Outreach team to ensure that each group had a mix of experiences. Attendees were not given the choice of which group they would join. The make-up of the groups was as follows:
• Group 1: A group of five, with three men and two women. Two were currently councillors and two had previously been councillors.
1 The report produced from the inquiry was Councillors on the frontline. 2 Mr Clive Betts MP, Heidi Alexander MP, Simon Danczuk MP, Bill Esterson MP, James Morris MP, Mark Pawsey MP and Heather Wheeler MP
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• Group 2: A group of five, with three men and two women. Two were currently councillors and one had been a councillor.
• Group 3: A group of five, with three men and two women. One was a councillor and two had attempted to become councillors.
• Group 4: A group of four, with two men and two women. One was a councillor and one used to be a councillor.
• Group 5: A group of five with one man and four women. One of the group was currently a councillor.
• Group 6: A group of three, with two men and one woman. One of the group was currently a councillor.
• Group 7: A group of five, with two men and three women. One of the group was currently a parish councillor.
Discussions
7. The discussion centred around four main themes and questions which are set out in the headings below. Each group had 20 minutes to discuss each theme, with the discussions being led by a different MP each time. The MPs moved around the groups in a pre- determined order. Each MP spoke to at least three different groups. All groups attempted to keep the discussion of the four themes separate, but there were some comments and observations which crossed over two or more of the themes. The main points of these discussions are covered below. A number of direct quotes from participants are set out in boxes inserted into the text.
THEME 1: MOTIVATIONS AND EXPERIENCES
Why did you decide to become a councillor?
8. Across the groups there was a wide range of motivations for becoming a councillor. Of the participants who were currently councillors, several had been politically active— generally members of a party—before they considered standing for election and most were asked by senior party members, their MP or existing councillors to stand for election. Others had been campaigning on a single issue—for example, a controversial planning decision—and had become involved that way. Within this section of participants, most had then gone on to join a political party but some had stood as independent candidates.
9. Others who were currently councillors had decided to stand because they were already serving their communities—for instance as volunteers or community workers—and they had considered they could better serve their community as a councillor, as they could be involved in decision-making. Others said that the high levels of job satisfaction achieved through meeting people and being able to help individuals with their problems had appealed to them. Some felt that they had a responsibility to help people and had wanted to make a difference.
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10. A small number of the councillors attending had also stood because of their experience of existing councillors or services—one participant had been impressed with the work of her local councillor and wanted to do the same—but most of this group had stood because they were dissatisfied with their existing councillors; they had considered them inactive, ineffective or that they didn’t represent them or their community. One councillor had chosen to stand because of a particular experience that had happened at a local school; the councillor had felt the school had not been operated in the best interest of the pupils. The participant had become a councillor to prevent this happening again.
11. Some groups explored with the councillors what previous knowledge of the role of councillor they had before they were elected. Many councillors said that they knew very little or nothing about the role before standing for election and were surprised by the actuality. One participant said he had been surprised by how much “social work” a councillor did when fulfilling casework duties. Another participant had only met council officers after she had been elected. Those that had had some prior knowledge about the role had acquired it via their local political party, where they had been given advice about their workload and a ‘job description’.
12. There was general agreement that local councils did not provide adequate information about becoming a councillor or what the role entailed. The information that was available was generally anecdotal and could be incorrect. But most of the councillors taking part in these discussions said that they had attended a council meeting or visited their local council chamber before they stood for election.
Why did you decide not to become a councillor?
13. For many of those who weren’t councillors, one of the reasons that they had decided not to stand was because “it hadn’t occurred to them” or “they weren’t asked”. Some also took the view that many people lacked confidence and did not think they had the skills to be a councillor. Many said that, if more people knew more about the role of a councillor and the skills required, then potential candidates would be less intimidated about standing.
14. The younger participants often cited their age as a reason for not standing, saying that they felt they were too young. Some also said they formed the impression that older people were not so accepting of younger councillors, possibly because they felt threatened by them. It was also suggested that political parties tended to prefer candidates with long experience of party activism, making it difficult for younger people. However, some of the older participants responded that there was a lack of community spirit, which meant that many good candidates were not coming forward, resulting in the quality of councillor being reduced over the last decade.
15. Some attendees said that the role of councillor was not suitable for many women with families as they might not able to access flexible childcare arrangements. Both male and female participants were put off by time commitment, not only in terms of their domestic commitments but also due to the effect it might have on their careers—some did not feel that councillors’ allowances were enough to compensate for this (more detail at paragraphs 51-57).
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16. Among the younger participants there was a concern that becoming a councillor could potentially interrupt or upset their career progression. Similarly, some potential councillors were concerned that, should they change their working arrangements once they were elected—for example, to switch to part-time work—they might be unable to make the change back should they not be successful at the next election.
Do you think being a councillor is the best way to serve your local community?
17. A number of contrasting views were expressed by the groups when answering this question. Some considered that they could achieve more as a community volunteer or activist than as a local councillor. However, others felt that, as a councillor, they would have the authority, credibility and influence over multiple areas to make a real difference to the local community. A councillor could use his or her authority, for example, to require the release of information.
18. One participant said that her community would view her differently if she became a councillor and was concerned that the political aspects of the job would “get in the way”. It was considered that councillors “Once you become a suit—a politician—you’re could get bogged down in so much one of them.” paperwork that they could lose touch with “Councillors get sucked in and lose focus— their local area, visibility and the connection then people feel disconnected from them.” with their community.
19. One participant, who was not a councillor, considered he was more effective working with small businesses outside of the council. Inside councils it took time for things to happen which could be achieved more quickly externally. Another person who was not a councillor had started a course encouraging different forms of community engagement and involvement, which included becoming a councillor, but did not want to be a councillor themselves.
For those participants who are or have been councillors, would you recommend the role to other people?
20. Of the existing councillors present, most would recommend the role to others, albeit with certain caveats and advice. Most considered that the role could only be done successfully with support from partners, friends and family and thought it was essential that potential candidates understood that before standing. A number of participants had also recruited their successors or colleagues and mentored them as they began the role, to offer them further support. Participants suggested that candidates should shadow councillors before committing to standing for election.
21. A small number of participants had become disillusioned with local democracy during their experience standing unsuccessfully for election. Among the reasons cited were that they felt it was too political, there was nepotism involved and they considered that campaigning was too egotistical for them.
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THEME 2: DIVERSITY AND REPRESENTATION
Do you think it’s important that the composition of a council is reflective of the community it is serving?
22. The groups agreed that councillors needed to be people with an understanding of their local area and its issues, although there were differing views on how important it was for the composition of the council to reflect the local community. Whilst groups generally agreed that it was essential that people from “I’m frustrated with what I am: I’m old, I’m all walks of life were involved at some level, white, etc. I just can’t persuade people others considered that so long as councillors from the younger generation to get were prepared to listen to and represent all involved. They don’t have the time.” sections of society, their background wasn’t relevant; diversity of experience was considered just as important. Some argued that just because a person might come from the same background as the people they represented, it did not always follow that they were in touch with them. Some participants considered that effective community engagement and local knowledge to be more important than personal background.
23. However, other participants emphasised the importance of having role models and people who “look like me”, particularly when it came to BME or younger candidates. Many participants said they felt more able to relate to somebody who was their own age or from their own background. It was considered that younger councillors provided valuable role models for young people to relate to, potentially stimulating an interest in local democracy.
24. Many considered that full representation across age, race and background was crucial if there was to be public trust and confidence in democratic institutions. Some councillors argued that, if councils “In this day and age I can’t believe that were truly in touch with their we are still being asked this question. It goes without saying that policies are far communities and reflective of the people better devised and delivered when they who lived in their areas, there wouldn’t are properly considered by a full be any need to commission reports to representative group of decision makers.” understand particular communities or multicultural cities; this knowledge would already be in place.
25. It was considered that with a council made up solely of councillors of a similar background, gender and ethnicity, not only was talent being wasted, but there were also concerns whether the councillors would be able to understand and resolve the great range of issues that would come when representing a diverse area.
26. Some took the view that older people did not have the same insight into the issues affecting young people, such as tuition fees and getting on the housing ladder. Some argued that, as well as having more younger councillors, there would be benefits to all councillors receiving training in youth and community work.
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27. A number of participants considered some older councillors spoke of, and advertised, their length of service as a ‘badge of honour’. It was said that candidates who had been active in a political party for a number of years were more likely to get selected, which created a barrier for young, prospective councillors. Moreover, if older councillors were asked whether there should be more young people on the council, they would say yes, but they generally wouldn’t see themselves as part of the problem.
What do you think puts people from under-represented groups (women, younger people, BME people, disabled people, Gypsies and Travellers) off from standing for election?
28. One councillor said there was a confidence gap between men and women, with women feeling they “White males who dominate and drive were not appropriately qualified, nepotistic systems of (party) selection that which deterred them from standing. exclude anyone they can’t put down, shout down or marginalise out of a discussion.” Similarly they felt the ‘atmosphere’ surrounding standing for election— for example when attending local party meetings—could put women and other under-represented groups off from standing.
29. Some, particularly those who were not councillors, considered that many people did not become candidates because they didn’t feel it was for “people like them”. It was “It’s all male, pale felt that many potential candidates who are from and stale.” ‘commonly excluded’ groups lacked the confidence to challenge the status quo.
30. One participant noted that there were a number of Asian women in their community that wanted to get involved, but not only were they held back by the hours, which were not perceived to be “woman-friendly”, they also needed additional support for things like campaigning, when they needed people on the street with them. This sort of additional support simply wasn’t available for most women.
31. Many considered that much of the problem came from a poor level of understanding of how local and national political systems worked and a lack of information about how to become politically active. This was felt to begin from poor citizenship education in schools and to be exacerbated by low levels of political engagement by “If you don’t start voting councils with local civil society. A way to improve this when you get the vote at 18, would be to involve councillors in education you probably never will.” programmes, not only in schools but in local community projects and organisations.
What can be done to encourage more people from these sections of society to stand?
32. One of the participants who was not a councillor and many of the younger attendees suggested that introducing limits on the number of consecutive terms, or on the total years
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that could be served as a councillor, would reduce the ‘stranglehold’ that older people seemed to have on councils.
33. One participant suggested that holding youth forums to debate and make decisions on particular issues, which were then fed back to the council chamber, would help to engage young people in the democratic process. Alternatively, through youth councils, young people could have an opportunity to shadow elected councillors and participate in decision making in relevant policy areas.
34. It was also considered that more effective use of the internet and social media would allow younger people to engage with their local councillors in a format that “Facebook allows for more engagement.” appealed to them and was much less time consuming than a letter, or even an e-mail. It was felt that instant “People get involved updates on Twitter and Facebook engaged young without having to leave the house.” people in a way that a leaflet could not. However, it was suggested that many incumbent councillors were fearful of social media.
35. Others considered that there were many able candidates being overlooked because they were “waiting to be asked”. One suggestion for tackling this problem would be to impose a routine requirement on all electoral returning officers to run pro-active public information programmes to inform and empower more people to nominate themselves to stand for election.
36. One group heard that there were some sections of society that were completely disenfranchised, not on the electoral register, and unclear when, where and how to vote. Work was urgently needed to target these chronically excluded people, monitoring where there were gaps in representation and taking action to address these gaps. This action could include visits by local and national politicians, work placements and shadowing schemes. The Gypsy and Traveller community was one group of people that could benefit from this action: at present, there were only three known Gypsy or Traveller local authority councillors out of around 40,000 nationally.
Is there a place for some form of ‘positive discrimination’ to broaden the pool of candidates?
37. Across the groups there were mixed views on positive discrimination; some participants considered it to be an effective way of tackling under-representation quickly. Some argued that it was the only way to ensure that councils mirrored the areas they were representing and that in some communities having an all-female shortlist was a necessity and the only means to prevent a council being predominantly male.
38. Others, however, considered positive discrimination to be anti-democratic. There was the additional concern that it undermined councillors if they were selected on the basis of their gender, ethnicity or age, rather than their merits. Furthermore a small number of participants considered that any form of positive action would invite incompetence rather than ability.
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THEME 3: PRACTICALITIES OF THE ROLE
Is it possible to juggle being a councillor with a full-time job and domestic commitments?
39. Most participants took the view that the time required of councillors varied and depended on a number of factors: position in the council, executive or committee function, casework levels, local issues, the pressure to get re-elected and travelling times, which was a pressing issue in rural and county authorities. Many councillors added, however, that there was a general expectation that all councillors would be available during the day, which for many was not possible.
40. Some participants observed that young people and those in their thirties often did not have enough time to devote to being a councillor because of work, study or family commitments. Moreover, chief whips did not necessarily understand the juggling act that younger councillors with such commitments had to perform. Some younger councillors stood down at the end of the twenties to focus on their career or family life. Consequently, in a number of councils, there were very few councillors in their thirties or early forties.
41. A large majority of participants agreed that the more time a councillor was able to spend on councillor duties, the more effective he or she could be. Some believed that to make a real “When in full time difference as a councillor one needed to work at it employment, I was less ‘full-time’. Likewise, the few that had tried to fit in effective as a councillor.” their councillor duties around full-time employment said that they had not been as effective as they could have been. Some considered that, in order to be effective, councillors had to commit at least 15 hours per week, but that they could achieve more and be better councillors if they did more than that.
42. Some councillors considered that they were only able to serve because of support provided by others—in particular, spouses or “If it wasn’t for the (financial) support of relatives who were able to assist them my husband, I couldn’t do this job.” financially or with childcare. Many felt that “How many jobs is a woman supposed to there would be some people, single mothers, do? Mum, full-time worker, councillor...” for example, who would be prevented from being councillors as a result.
For those who have chosen not to stand for election, to what extent were you put off by the time commitment involved?
43. Of the participants who had considered becoming a councillor but had not stood, there was an approximately equal division between those who had been discouraged by the time commitment and those who had been put off by the ‘political’ aspect of the job. (The political de-motivation is covered in more detail in paragraph 57 below.)
44. Of the other group, many were put off by anecdotal stories they had heard—for example of younger councillors with full time jobs working on casework until 11pm in the
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evening. Many considered that they already had enough commitments to juggle; they felt they could not commit, particularly since there was no trial period; and once they were elected, they would be in that position for four years. To provide some experience of the demands, it was suggested that those wanting to be councillors should carry out other roles in their party or community first.
For those who are councillors, how easy it is to find the time needed to fulfil the role? Do you have a supportive employer?
45. The support offered by employers tended to vary, with participants reporting that the most supportive employers tended to be the [I was told at the job centre] “Have public sector and the third sectors, some of you ever thought about giving up which had formal processes to provide the being a councillor in order to make yourself more available to work?” flexible working required to be a councillor. It was considered that private sector companies “Nobody wants to employ a were generally less supportive. One councillor.” participant, who was a councillor but was also unemployed, reported a severe detrimental effect on employment prospects because of being a councillor. It was reported that some employers were reluctant to recruit councillors, not least because they had to grant them time off for public duties. Another said that some employment agencies would not put councillors on their books.3
46. To make employers more supportive of employing councillors, it was suggested that companies be directly reimbursed for the time lost by their employee when performing duties as a councillor. Some took the view that this might benefit larger companies, but that it would not be practical for those working in smaller businesses, as generally these companies needed their employees’ time; it was unlikely they would be able to afford hiring replacement staff with the money reimbursed. There was widespread agreement that there ought to be legislation in place to stop employers discriminating against councillors.
What additional support could be given to help councillors carry out their role?
47. An issue that was mentioned across several groups was that of prospective councillors not having enough understanding about what the job would entail and there being limited opportunities to find out more. Many said that if they had been able to shadow a councillor or attend meetings before standing for election, they would have had better knowledge of the time commitment involved. If new councillors (particularly those outside the party structure) could have ‘mentors’ on the council that would also provide additional support.
48. There was a varied response from existing councillors about the amount of support that was offered to them in terms of administrative duties and it was clear that there was not a consistent approach across authorities. Some councillors had been offered the ICT necessary to facilitate remote working (which those using it considered was essential),
3 The justification offered was that a councillor’s duties were seen as a second job, which disqualified them.
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whereas others had not even been provided with a mobile phone. Likewise, some authorities provided shared resources, such as office staff for administrative functions, but this was not thought to cover research assistance for casework, which many thought would be a very useful form of support.
49. Those attending the forum had limited
“New councillors need experience of receiving or undertaking training; the training on admin and majority said that they had their training “on the formal aspects of being a job”. Another point made about training was that it councillor, so that good people can hit the ground was often offered during the day, during office hours running.” (9-5), so was not accessible to many councillors. Some councillors said that they wanted to undertake additional training, but that there was insufficient funding available.
50. The suggestion was made for the introduction of a nationally recognised set of qualifications for councillors, based on their work, which would demonstrate their transferable skills, and assist them when it came to returning to work. It was considered that more effort should be made to emphasise the advantages of employing a councillor— for instance, being a councillor gave people an understanding of local government and increased their confidence and analytical skills.
Do you think councillors are paid enough? Would more money attract more candidates?
51. Some participants said that councillors ought to be full-time, or at least paid a ‘living wage’. Some considered that it would be better to reduce the number of councillors—by half was suggested—but for the remaining councillors to be full-time and be paid as such. However, there were other participants who felt that having full-time councillors might result in some becoming “professional councillors” who were more detached from the community. It was pointed out that councillors who also had a job brought a wider range of skills and experience to the role than those who did nothing other than council work. One participant observed that running a council had many similarities to running a business. Another participant (a councillor) indicated no interest in the financial aspects of council business.
52. Several people who have never been or were no longer councillors said that they would be enthusiastic about being a councillor if it were a formal, full-time role, with a full-time salary. One said he would still be a councillor today if the finances had been right; he was forced to give it up for financial reasons. Another councillor would not be standing again unless there were better allowances. It was suggested that some councillors took on positions with higher allowances because they needed the money—even if they did not have the experience and expertise needed to carry out the responsibilities.
53. A number of potential improvements to the current system of councillors’ allowances were suggested including: councillors receiving performance related pay; councillors only being paid for the number of hours they worked; councillors receiving compensation for loss of earnings rather than an allowance; councillors being paid the average UK wage; and councillors being paid the same salary as an MP on a pro-rata basis. However, on all of
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these suggestions, some reservations were raised—for example, concern that, if councillors were paid on the basis of their attendance, this might lead some “I’m convinced we should be paid full-time to conform councillors to attend meetings simply to “sign the to professional standards.” register” and then leave. Some councillors also expressed frustration that they were paid the same allowance as those who they considered to be ‘ghost councillors’ who did not undertake their duties. Several groups considered that a system of appraisal for councillors, in addition to their election—perhaps at mid-term—could help combat this abandonment of responsibilities.
54. However, many also considered that councillors were in a difficult position because they knew that there would be negative reaction from the public, and the media, if they were seen to be voting to increase their salaries or expenses (more detail on expenses can be found in paragraph 65). As a result, councils often voted to freeze allowances. This was acceptable for wealthy, retired councillors, but difficult for those with less income and resources who needed the allowance to carry out the role. Some were of the view that this could be mitigated by reducing the number of councillors (as mentioned in paragraph 51 above), so the overall salary bill would be the same.
55. It was also suggested that there needed to be some standardisation of allowances across authorities; one councillor said their basic allowance was £2,000 while another said theirs was £8,000. Many participants considered that there should be a ‘consistent offer’ across authorities, with possibly the exception of London where some weighting might be justified. One suggestion made was to link council allowances to the pay of officer grades.
56. Other issues that were identified by councillors on their allowances were that they were often not able to make use of other government schemes and assistance. For example, one councillor pointed out that councillor allowances were deducted from unemployed councillors’ Job Seeker’s allowance and another noted that allowances paid to councillors could remove entitlement to Tax Credits as they were counted as ‘income’ when they should be considered as allowances.
57. Although some authorities provided expenses to cover childcare, it was not mandatory for authorities to provide this; many considered that better provision for childcare was essential if more young candidates were to take office, particularly women. However, a number of participants questioned how many people would actually claim these expenses and allowances if they were available, because of the general stigma surrounding claiming of expenses. (This issue is covered in more depth in Theme 4)
THEME 4: PERCEPTIONS OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND POLITICS
Do you think people are put off standing for council because of their perceptions of local government and politics?
58. Some participants who had not stood said that the adversarial nature, along with the wider, negative perception, of politics had put them off. Two participants said that they had felt the local council had created divisions in their community and did not want to be involved in such an organisation.
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59. A number of participants felt that local and national media only focused on negative stories in relation to the work of councils and councillors, in turn creating a negative perception of local government and discouraging people from standing.
Do councillors have much ability to effect change? Would people be more attracted if councillors had additional powers?
60. One participant said that he had decided to stand down from the council because of the change from the committee to the cabinet structure, with councillors being salaried rather than being paid for the work carried out. He considered that this led to lower levels of participation; he said that in one local council 32 people had been elected but only eight made decisions. However, another participant pointed that in very large councils it was necessary to have a cabinet system, otherwise nothing would get done.
61. Some participants considered that it was very difficult for councillors to effect change due to the inefficient way in which councils were run. One councillor said that council meetings were infrequent and delays were seen as the norm. Reports were drawn up slowly and steering groups were seen as a way to achieve delays. These problems were particularly acute in councils that were finely balanced politically and the current electoral cycles made it difficult to implement policies.
62. One councillor also noted that it used to be that officials ran councils and councillors made policy “In four years, I wonder decisions. However, that was not the case now: whether I’ll look back and think ‘what have I councillors spent so much time running things that done’?” they didn’t have time to focus on policy making decisions.
Do you think it’s harder to become a councillor if you are not a member of a political party?
63. Across the groups there was general agreement that, not only was it more difficult to be elected as a councillor if not affiliated to a political party, but that political parties
“It’s too managerial now. It’s provided a great deal more support for difficult to get things done.” councillors beyond campaigning. Many councillors were given additional support “A good council is where councillors and officers are both strong.” when choosing to stand for election, such as shadowing a councillor, and more details of what the job would entail. On being elected, some councillors were also given mentors within the council.
64. Some who were not councillors said that they had been actively discouraged from becoming councillors by the perception that they needed the support of a political party— for some this was because they didn’t feel they could align their views with any one party and for others it was because they didn’t want to be subject to a ‘party line’.
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65. Some participants said that more support needed to be given to those candidates who wanted to run independently. They agreed that some of the electorate might be suspicious of those not affiliated to a political party as they wouldn’t have undertaken any screening process, and therefore more needed to be done “I have more power acting to make independent candidates more independently than I would by becoming a Labour candidate. legitimate and credible. The point was also Becoming a councillor would shut made that councils needed people with a history me up.” of activism so that they could command respect and attention without needing the support of a political party.
66. It was also noted that, if independent candidates did get elected, they did not have the same access to support as councillors from political parties. It was suggested that independent groups of a certain size be given access to council-funded administrative support.
Are people’s views about local government and councillors affected by wider perceptions of politics and politicians?
67. When discussing perceptions of politics and politicians, many cited the MPs’ expenses revelations that started in 2009 as affecting negatively perceptions of all politicians. All participants agreed that the expenses scandal had hardened the general public’s view of elected representatives claiming taxpayers’ money. As a result, councillors faced increased difficulty claiming necessary expenses and were wary of using allowances, lest the information be used against them. This reinforced the trend towards councillors being people who could fund their activities from their own income and personal wealth without claiming expenses or allowances. A number of participants considered that public concerns could be allayed, at least in part, by a public expenses report produced by authorities without an ‘intrusive’ amount of detail.
68. Many considered that a fear of “what the public would say” was not only preventing authorities from attracting a wider range of councillors, but also from achieving the best value for money. Some councillors believed that switching to a ‘paperless office’ and using mobile devices like tablets, would not only save administration costs such as printing, but would allow more councillors to work remotely and flexibly, reducing the time and money spent travelling. However, authorities were reluctant to switch to new technology because of a fear of a backlash from the public if they were to provide councillors with this equipment.
69. Another common theme raised by councillors was that there was a certain degree of cynicism from the public about the role of councillors and MPs. Many councillors reported electors repeatedly commenting: “we only ever see you at election time”. A number of participants considered that councillors had to be visible in their communities. People could rarely identify their local councillor or council leader. However, it was noted that those councillors who took the time to walk around their wards and speak to people were much more recognisable. Senior politicians could often be out of touch on issues such as poverty and ought to take time to visit places in their area that they would not usually see.
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70. Some councillors said they made the time regularly to visit their wards and speak to people, but it was very difficult to do so with so many other demands on their time; the only time when they were given the time to regularly visit people was when they were campaigning, which tended to exacerbate the problem.
71. Many of the participants considered that there was a need to rehabilitate the reputation of politicians. One suggestion was to find ways to demonstrate the work the councillors did—for instance, through initiatives such as participatory budgeting—so that people could have an insight into the decisions that councillors had to make.
CONCLUSIONS
72. As would be expected from an event with such a diverse group of participants, there were a wide range of views, particularly on issues such as positive discrimination and how to ensure that councils were representative. However, although there were a number of differing opinions, there were a number of areas where there was consensus.
73. There was general agreement that there should be more young people in councils and that there needed to be more support provided for independent candidates, not only so they had the information and resources to stand for election, but also when they were elected. Many participants considered that better engagement through tools such as social media and wider use of the internet would not only allow quicker, more accessible engagement with their communities, but would also allow councillors easy access to indicative case studies, evidence and information they needed when formulating policy and making decisions.
74. The majority of participants took the view that more support had to be given to councillors, both financially and in terms of creating an environment where the electorate understood the work of councillors and valued their position in the community. Whilst participants accepted there might be some presentational issues to increasing allowances for councillors, many believed this was essential if local authorities were to attract and retain a variety of talented candidates. There was broad agreement that better civic education in schools and community engagement in local organisations was a key method of achieving this objective.
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Conclusions and recommendations
Councillors Commission
1. The Councillors Commission set out some important principles about the role and recruitment of councillors, and shone a light on a number of important issues, some of which we have considered in this inquiry. (Paragraph 5)
Councillors in the community
2. We have heard different descriptions of the role councillors should be playing in their community. Some witnesses have referred to “community leadership”. Others have said that councillors should be “facilitators” or “civic entrepreneurs”. It does not really matter how this role is described: individual councillors will adapt their approaches to what works locally. What matters more is that the Government does not accidentally undermine the authority of councillors, and that councillors are, in turn, visible in their communities, getting out and about, meeting their constituents and giving them the help and support they need. In doing so, they should be encouraging communities to make the most of all the opportunities available to them, including those offered by the Localism Act 2011. By being visible and active, councillors can also become role models for others in the community and encourage a wider range of people to take an interest in local government. (Paragraph 15)
3. In supporting their communities, councillors should be working closely with external organisations and providers of public services. By forging close relationships with GPs, schools, neighbourhood policing teams, voluntary organisations and local businesses, councillors can broaden their understanding of the key issues facing their community. They also have a role in bringing organisations together to share intelligence and provide a co-ordinated and effective response to local needs. (Paragraph 17)
4. We urge all councils to consider how best to provide support to their councillors and assist them to ensure they have an active role in their communities. Wherever possible, councils should be seeking to devolve power and resources to councillors at the local level, to enable them to fulfil this role. This devolution could take a number of forms: enabling councillors to become “mini mayors” at the ward or community level; delegating budgets; or establishing area committees with decision-making responsibilities. We have seen good examples of what can be achieved: the levers are in place, so councils should get on with the job of devolving power. The approaches they take will depend upon the characteristics of the area and the type of authority, but it is important that examples of good practice are collected and publicised. Councils and the Local Government Association should work together to ensure that good practice is shared and that authorities learn from each other. (Paragraph 22)
5. Increasingly, council services are being delivered by external providers. In these cases, it is important that the role of the councillor is not reduced. Councillors have to be able to influence the way services are delivered, and should not be prevented from doing so because their authority is locked into a long-term contract where there
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is no access for local politicians to intervene in relation to service quality. Councils should take care when drawing up contracts to ensure that the contracts allow councillors to shape service delivery and have regular contact with frontline staff. (Paragraph 24)
“Guided” and “muscular” localism
6. We remain concerned about the Government’s mixed messages on localism. The Secretary of State’s use of terms such as “guided localism” and now “muscular localism” suggests an inability to let go of the reins and embrace the concept fully. This can be frustrating and confusing for councillors and councils wishing to make the most of localism. We once again urge the Government to rein in its interventionist instincts, and to commit to giving councils real freedom to make important decisions about issues affecting their areas. Centrally directed localism is a contradiction in terms. (Paragraph 25)
Structures and elections
7. We support the development of parish and town councils in areas that are currently “unparished” where communities wish to see them created, and welcome the Government’s commitment to make it easier for communities to establish local councils. (Paragraph 29)
8. We recommend that councils from time-to-time give formal consideration to their electoral arrangements, ward composition, and, in collaboration with other authorities in their areas, their structures. If, following such consideration they are minded to make a change, they may wish to request that the Secretary of State or the Local Government Boundary Commission for England initiate a review or, if within their powers, make the changes to the arrangements themselves. (Paragraph 35)
Representation and diversity
9. We consider it a matter of concern that the composition of many councils does not reflect that of the communities they serve. Clearly, we should not be looking for absolute “reflectiveness” (which would be impossible to achieve). We also accept that councillors do not necessarily have to come from a particular section of society to represent that section effectively. Nevertheless, healthy democracy depends upon different sections of society feeling a connection to those who represent them. It is, therefore, important to increase, for example, the numbers of women, younger people and black and minority ethnic people serving on local authorities, so that the membership of councils is better aligned to the make-up of the local populations they serve. Evidence presented to us suggested that there are areas where it can be difficult to find any candidates at all, and in these places the scale of the challenge will be all the greater. (Paragraph 39)
Councillors on the frontline 59
Recruitment of candidates
10. Political parties form the backbone of our democratic system. If we are to see a significant increase in the proportion of councillors from currently under- represented groups, the three main parties together have an important (and probably the most important) role to play. We were pleased to see that the national parties were taking action to increase the number of candidates from under-represented groups and to encourage a broader pool of people to put themselves forward. We were also encouraged to hear that the parties had in place steps to address concerns raised with us about excessive caution and a lack of transparency in selection processes. However, while there are doubtless many examples of good practice, we did not see convincing evidence that party policies were being universally applied by local parties “on the ground”. The political parties must ensure that there are mechanisms in place to monitor the implementation of their national policies in all parts of the country, and that results are achieved. (Paragraph 46)
11. Being a councillor is not for everyone and some people will choose to serve their communities in other ways. Nevertheless, the values and skills involved in working in the voluntary sector or running a business will often reflect many of those required for service as a councillor. The political parties should initiate discussions with organisations representing the voluntary sector and business community to explore how they can work together to promote opportunities to stand for election. In addition, the parties should take steps to make themselves more open, for instance by creating a more welcoming atmosphere at meetings, so that people are not deterred by negative and possibly inaccurate perceptions of what being a party member entails. (Paragraph 50)
12. There are a number of approaches the political parties could take to increasing the diversity of the candidates they select. We are not advocating particular approaches but rather that parties should actively consider the options available. These options could include the use of open primaries, and the introduction of positive action policies. (Paragraph 55)
Promoting local democracy
13. Local authorities should be actively promoting democratic engagement and explaining to the public what the role of councillor entails. The repeal of the Duty to Promote Democracy should be a spur to show that councils can develop and implement their own approaches to the promotion of local democracy, without the need for central government direction. We understand that local government is currently facing significant budgetary constraints. Nevertheless, we encourage all councils to put in place strategies for democratic engagement, in accordance with their local circumstances. These strategies should include a focus on engagement with under-represented and hard-to-reach groups. In particular, councils should be taking steps to promote the active involvement of young people. (Paragraph 61)
14. The Local Government Association (LGA) deserves credit for its work on the Be a Councillor programme, which is playing an important role in encouraging a wider group of people to stand at local elections. We welcome the political parties’
60 Councillors on the frontline
engagement in the programme. We note the suggestion for the creation of a Local Democracy Advocacy Organisation that could take over and expand the programme. While there is merit in this idea, we are wary of recommending the setting up of a new organisation, which could be expensive and time consuming. We would, however, encourage the LGA to expand the Be a Councillor programme, under its established branding, to enable it to play a wider role in the promotion of local democracy. The expanded Be a Councillor programme could take steps to share good practice from councils’ approaches to promoting democratic engagement. Steps to popularise the idea of becoming a councillor should be actively considered. (Paragraph 64)
Time commitment and the attitude of employers
15. Councils should consider assigning to each councillor an officer who can assist them in managing their casework. In smaller authorities, this officer may be shared between a number of councillors. (Paragraph 70)
16. The Ministry of Defence is giving serious consideration to the ways in which employers can be encouraged to support military reservists. The Department for Communities and Local Government should conduct a similar review. We recommend that the Government consult on how employers can be encouraged to provide support to their staff who serve as councillors. Options that might be considered include a kitemark-style recognition scheme and the introduction of a financial incentive scheme. (Paragraph 75)
Remuneration
17. We recommend that the Government give councils the ability to transfer responsibility for setting allowances to independent local bodies. Unlike the current panels, which can only make recommendations, these bodies would make decisions about levels of allowances that councils would be required to accept. It would be inconsistent for Parliament to deny councils the option it has chosen for the determination of its own pay and conditions. (Paragraph 81)
18. We recommend that the Government give councils (or, if the recommendation above is accepted, local allowance bodies) the power to include a capped element to compensate for loss of earnings as part of a councillor’s allowance. This would address our concern about the current situation, where a large proportion of councillors are retired and do not have the same need as employed councillors to increase allowances. Allowances therefore remain low and act as a deterrent for those considering whether to stand for election in future. The current arrangements become self-perpetuating. (Paragraph 82)
19. We are concerned at the inconsistency in the Minister’s position on allowances. On the one hand, he insisted that the setting of allowances was a matter for local determination. On the other hand, he was prepared to question a decision on allowances that a local authority had quite legitimately taken. This inconsistency illustrates our concerns about “guided localism”. Councils should be free to exercise
Councillors on the frontline 61
their decision-making power without facing criticism whenever Ministers disagree with the decisions they make. (Paragraph 84)
Councillor performance
20. We were pleased to hear about the steps political parties were taking to put in place councillor contracts. As we have already observed, it is important that the commitments made by political parties at a national level are translated into action on the ground. We urge the parties to ensure arrangements are in place for the active monitoring of contracts. Moreover, before deciding to reselect a councillor, local parties should give thorough consideration to the councillor’s performance over the previous term. (Paragraph 88)
21. We encourage local authorities to put in place light touch arrangements for reporting councillor performance. As part of this, councillors could be asked to complete a brief annual self-assessment to be made public in an accessible format. This should cover not only attendance at formal meetings, but also details of the work councillors have carried out within their communities. (Paragraph 89)
Training
22. We encourage political parties, local authorities and other bodies to review the training they offer to ensure it meets the needs of councillors. In particular, training should reflect the changing roles of councillors, and ensure that councillors understand the implications of the Localism Act 2011 and other new legislation. However, councillors themselves must ultimately be responsible for ensuring they have the skills they need to carry out their duties. We suggest that, as part of the performance reporting process we propose above, councillors make public details of any training they have completed in the course of the preceding year. Training should be seen as a benefit, not a cost, to local taxpayers. (Paragraph 95)
23. On the one hand, we are encouraged that a number of councils have chosen to ring fence their member development budgets; on the other hand, we are concerned by reports that the staffing to support this member development is being reduced in a number of authorities. While we recognise the budgetary pressures councils are under, we consider it essential that they ensure that there are sufficient resources to meet their members’ development needs. Without training and development, councillors’ effectiveness and job satisfaction will suffer. (Paragraph 97)
24. At a time when councillors are being called on to make increasingly difficult decisions about service reductions and budget priorities, this is not the moment to reduce their ability to undertake these vital tasks. Councillors have more need than ever for the support and resources to enable them to fulfil their decision-making and scrutiny roles. (Paragraph 98)
25. Training should be provided to potential candidates before they stand for election, to give them some knowledge of what they can expect from being a councillor. We encourage councils and political parties to work together to organise “taster courses” and briefing sessions for those considering standing for election. (Paragraph 100)
62 Councillors on the frontline
Councillors on the frontline
26. We pay tribute to the councillors across the country who are working hard for their communities, speaking up for them, addressing their problems and concerns, helping them get projects off the ground, and working with other organisations to ensure people get the representation they need. (Paragraph 101)
27. Councillors should be at the centre of community life, well known and respected by those they represent, and empowered to effect change within their local areas. We believe that, in future, all councillors should be on the frontline: central government, political parties, local authorities and, above all, councillors themselves have to play their part in achieving this ambition. Democracy at all levels depends on the health of its councillor base. (Paragraph 105)
Councillors on the frontline 63
Formal Minutes
Monday 17 December 2012
Members present:
Mr Clive Betts, in the Chair
Simon Danczuk Andy Sawford Bill Esterson Heather Wheeler Mark Pawsey
Draft Report (Councillors on the frontline), proposed by the Chair, brought up and read.
Ordered, That the Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.
Paragraphs 1 to 105 read and agreed to.
Annex and summary agreed to.
Resolved, That the Report be the Sixth Report of the Committee to the House.
Ordered, That the Chair make the Report to the House.
Ordered, That embargoed copies of the Report be made available, in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No. 134.
Written evidence was ordered to be reported to the House for printing with the Report, together with evidence reported and order to be published on 11 June, 2 July, 16 July, 3 September, 15 October, 17 October and 7 November 2012.
[Adjourned till Wednesday 19 December at 4.00 p.m.
64 Councillors on the frontline
Witnesses
Monday 2 July 2012 Page
Dame Jane Roberts, Former Chair of the Councillors Commission Ev 1
Professor Colin Copus, Professor of Local Politics, De Montfort University, Liz Richardson, Research Fellow, University of Manchester and Professor Michael Thrasher, Professor of Politics, Plymouth University Ev 7
Cllr Peter Fleming, Chair, Improvement Board, Local Government Association, Tim Gilling, Acting Executive Director, Centre for Public Scrutiny and Caroline Abrahams, Director of External Affairs, Age UK Ev 15
Monday 9 July 2012
Cllr Paul Watson, Leader, Cllr Celia Gofton, Portfolio Holder, Responsive Services and Customer Care and Dr Dave Smith, Chief Executive, Sunderland City Council Ev 23
Cllr Robert Oliver, Leader of the Conservative Group, Cllr Colin Wakefield, Leader of Independent Councillors, Cllr David Tate, Chair of the Scrutiny Committee, Cllr Dianne Snowdon, Area Vice Chair, Washington Area and Labour Group Secretary and Cllr Michael Mordey, Policy Member, City Services, Sunderland City Council Ev 27
Cllr Paul Watson, Chair, Cllr Jeff Reid, Leader, Northumberland County Council and Cllr Judith Wallace, Deputy Mayor of North Tyneside, Association of North East Councils Ev 34
Alan Wright, Chairman, City of Sunderland Conservatives, Cllr Tom Wright, Secretary, Washington and Sunderland West Constituency Labour Party and Chair, Sunderland City Labour Group and Geoff Pryke, Delegated Nominating Officer, Wearside Liberal Democrats Ev 40
Wednesday 17 October 2012
Cllr Robert Gordon CBE, Leader and Cllr Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Leader of the Opposition, Hertfordshire County Council, Cllr Lucinda Yeadon, Executive Member for Adult Social Care and Cllr Stewart Golton, Leader of the Liberal Democrat Group, Leeds City Council Ev 48
Monday 22 October 2012
Robert Howard, Political and community activist and former councillor, Cllr Robert Knowles, Leader of Waverley Borough Council, Nan Sloane, Director, Centre for Women and Democracy and Paul Wheeler, Director, Political Skills Forum Ev 65
Cllr Rowan Draper, Stafford Borough Council, Cllr Alycia James, Lancaster City Council, Cllr Simon Killane, Wiltshire Council and Cllr Marianne Overton, Lincolnshire County Council and North Kesteven District Council Ev 75
Councillors on the frontline 65
Monday 29 October 2012
Olly Buston, Executive Director, Members and Supporters, Labour Party, Steve Hitchins, Liberal Democrat Lead on Be a Councillor programme and Robert Neill MP, Vice Chairman, Local Government, Conservative Party Ev 86
Brandon Lewis MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government Ev 96
List of printed written evidence
Age UK Ev 111 Centre for Public Scrutiny Ev 162 Centre for Women and Democracy Ev 165 Professor Colin Copus, De Montfort University Ev 113 Professor Colin Copus and Dr Melvin Wingfield Ev 120 Department for Communities and Local Government Ev 103, Ev 186 Cllr Rowan Draper Ev 177 The Elections Centre, Plymouth University Ev 173 Hertfordshire County Council Ev 157 Robert Howard Ev 104 Cllr Alycia James Ev 182 Cllr Simon Killane Ev 189 Cllr Robert Knowles Ev 187 Leeds City Council and Commission on the Future of Local Government Ev 176 Local Government Association Ev 151 Cllr Marianne Overton Ev 185 Liz Richardson, University of Manchester Ev 159 Dame Jane Roberts Ev 144 Sunderland City Council Ev 147 Paul Wheeler, Director, Political Skills Forum Ev 170, Ev 172
List of additional written evidence
(published in Volume II on the Committee’s website www.parliament.uk/clgcom)
Association of Democratic Services Officers Ev w74 Janet Atkinson Ev w42 Bharti Boyle Ev w36 Buckinghamshire County Council Ev w5 Nigel Carter Ev w38 Community Council of Staffordshire Ev w34
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District Councils’ Network Ev w23 Dr Mark Ewbank Ev w17 Suzanne Fletcher Ev w73 Friends, Families and Travellers Ev w31, Ev w32 Warren W Hateley Ev w61 David Hill Ev w72 Jack Hopkins Ev w79 L. E. Horne Ev w36 Edward Houlton Ev w38 Robina Iqbal Ev w38 Desmond Jaddoo Ev w41 Cllr Lynda Jones Ev w68, Ev w69 Cllr Mike Jordan Ev w38 Cllr Richard Kemp CBE Ev w39 Rebecca Lane Ev w78 Jenny Lawrence Ev w34 Localis Ev w29 George McManus Ev w37 Cllr Iain Malcolm, Leader of South Tyneside Council Ev w62 Alfred Murphy Ev w35 NAVCA Ev w81 Netmums Ev w48 Scott Nicholson Ev w1 Timothy J Oates Ev w40 Office for Public Management Ev w7 Christopher Padley Ev w70 Participants in Local Government Association seminar Ev w58 Cllr Norman Plumpton Walsh Ev w36 Cllr Robin Potter Ev w33 Somerset County Council Ev w66 Ray Spalding Ev w80 Staffordshire County Council Ev w12 West Midlands Council Ev w2 Wiltshire Council Ev w25 Workers’ Educational Association, York Participate Pilot Ev w43
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List of Reports from the Committee during the current Parliament
The reference number of the Government’s response to each Report is printed in brackets after the HC printing number.
Session 2012–13 First Report Park Homes HC 177-I (CM 8424) Second Report European Regional Development Fund HC 81 (CM 8389) Third Report The work of the Local Government Ombudsman HC 431 (HC 615 & HC 650) Fourth Report Pre-appointment hearing for the Chair of the Audit HC 553 Commission Fifth Report Mutual and co-operative approaches to delivering HC 112 local services Sixth Report Councillors on the front line HC 432 Seventh Report The Committee’s response to the Government’s HC 830 consultation on permitted development rights for homeowners
Session 2010–12 First Special Report Beyond Decent Homes: Government response to the HC 746 Committee’s Fourth Report of Session 2009–10 First Report Local Authority Publications HC 666 (HC 834) Second Special Report Local Authority Publications: Government response to HC 834 the Committee’s Sixth Report of Session 2010–11 Second Report Abolition of Regional Spatial Strategies: a planning HC 517 (CM 8103) vacuum? Third Special Report FiReControl: Government response to the HC 835 Committee’s Fifth Report of Session 2009–10 Third Report Localism HC 547 (CM 8183) Fourth Report Audit and inspection of local authorities HC 763 (CM 8209) Fifth Report Localisation issues in welfare reform HC 1406 (CM 8272) Sixth Report Regeneration HC 1014 (CM 8264) Seventh Report Pre-appointment hearing for the Government’s HC 1612 preferred nominee for Chair of the Homes and Communities Agency Regulation Committee Eighth Report The National Planning Policy Framework HC 1526 (CM 8322) Ninth Report Taking forward Community Budgets HC 1750 Tenth Report Building regulations applying to electrical and gas HC 1851 (CM 8369) installation and repairs in dwellings Fourth Special Report Preventing violent extremism: Government response HC 1951 to the Committee’s Sixth Report of Session 2009–10 Eleventh Report Financing of new housing supply HC 1652 (CM 8401)
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Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 1
Oral evidence
Taken before the Communities and Local Government Committee on Monday 2 July 2012
Members present: Mr Clive Betts (Chair)
Heidi Alexander David Heyes Bob Blackman George Hollingbery Simon Danczuk James Morris Bill Esterson Mark Pawsey Stephen Gilbert Heather Wheeler ______
Examination of Witness
Witness: Dame Jane Roberts, former Chair of the Councillors Commission, gave evidence.
Chair: If we can start the first session of our inquiry talk about 2012 and what changes have taken place into councillors and the community, before we begin in the last year or two, but more broadly, and more with our first witness—Dame Jane Roberts, you are importantly, I would like to frame it in a much wider very welcome to the Committee—all the MPs round context, if I may. this table have been councillors previously. We Chair: Yes, of course. probably ought to declare our current connections to Dame Jane Roberts: You will probably know that the councillors and council work. I am a vice president of remit of the Councillors Commission was set up by the Local Government Association. We will just go the then Secretary of State, Ruth Kelly, and round the table. Perhaps other members with a subsequently Hazel Blears. Our remit was to look at particular interest to declare could do so. the incentives that encourage and the barriers that Simon Danczuk: My wife is a councillor. deter people from putting themselves forward as David Heyes: I’m clean. councillors; to get more what were rather coyly called Heidi Alexander: I am a vice president of the LGA. suitably able and representative people to put Bill Esterson: My wife is a town councillor. themselves forward; and how to get more public Stephen Gilbert: My mother is a Cornwall recognition and value for the work councillors do. We councillor. could have plunged straight into matters of training, Heather Wheeler: My husband is leader of a council, support and remuneration and all those sorts of things, and I am vice president of the LGA. which are important—don’t get me wrong—but we Mark Pawsey: I have nothing to add. thought we had to look more broadly, if we were going to come up with sensible recommendations, at Q1 Chair: Jane, for the sake of our record, right at the role of the councillor at the beginning of the 21st the beginning could you introduce yourself? Say who century. As we were looking into the role of the you are and the organisation you represent. councillor we had to step back further still at the wider Dame Jane Roberts: I am Jane Roberts. I was a canvas to look at local democratic systems more former leader of a council, and I chaired the generally and what changes there had been over the Councillors Commission from 2007 to 2009. course of the last few decades, because that wider strategic context had to inform the studies we took Q2 Chair: You are very welcome, and thank you for on board. coming. It is with the Councillors Commission that At the end of the day, the Councillors Commission we would like to start. It is a very appropriate place was a very comprehensive piece of work, but other for our inquiry, because you had a long and detailed reports came out from the LGIU; Lord Richard Best; look at some of the issues that are now being Ed Cox and Saffron James; the Joseph Rowntree considered by the Committee. Could you tell us, as an Foundation; and the Local Government Network put overview, what are the key things you recommended one out a little after that. The all-party parliamentary that have been adopted since the commission, and group had also commissioned a report. There was a what are the key things you recommended that have slew of reports on the back of the Lyons inquiry that not yet been taken on board that you would like to also reported in 2007. Certainly, some of the thinking see implemented? in the Lyons inquiry influenced us. We were a smaller Dame Jane Roberts: Could I put this in context? The subset, but we had influence on some of the things Sir report of the Councillors Commission was published Michael Lyons also reported. That was the at the end of 2007. We met again just over a year background. In that context, we came forward with 61 later, in April 2009, to review progress. Since that recommendations. What I would like to stress more time there have been many changes in the Local importantly than individual recommendations are the Government Association and in the leadership and principles we laid down. If I may take some of your control of councils, and particularly a change in time to go through those five principles, in my view— government. I do not think I am the right person to I think my fellow commissioners would agree with cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Ev 2 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
2 July 2012 Dame Jane Roberts this—they were as important as the specific patch should communicate effectively with people recommendations we made. Would it be okay if I did about how local governance works. Who does what? that? Who is responsible for what? If your local police Chair: Yes. station has closed, what can you do about that? It is a Dame Jane Roberts: They are not very long. The first kind of jigsaw. There is a lot of information out there, of the five principles was that local authorities are key particularly now with the social media, the net and all to promoting local democratic engagement. That was the rest of it, but it is very fragmented. It is very essentially the meat of our recommendation 1. You unclear how it all joins up at a local level. The first might think those are warm words, apple pie and wrung of promoting local democracy was simply motherhood. I can talk much more about that. We about making as widely known and as comprehensible were very clear about what that meant in practice. and understandable as possible who does what, why Local authorities were key to promoting local and how, and who is accountable to whom for what. democracy, essentially. Secondly, promoting a sense The second thing was to promote people getting of efficacy—ie the feeling that an individual is able involved at a local level, whether it is a tenants to influence the democratic process and the course of association, school governors, friends of a local park, events—is key to better engagement. It is a sense of tree wardens, whatever you have in your patch, so it agency and that something will happen if I press a is made easier for people to know how to get button. Thirdly, councils are most effective as locally involved. They could dip their toe in the water. elected representatives when they have life Professor John Stewart, whom I am sure you know experiences similar to those of their constituents. well, says that if people get involved a bit they get Clearly, they are not identical. As MPs you will know more interested and are likely to get further involved, that; you represent many different people, but we so it is about making it easier to take the first wrung. thought it a really important principle that you have a Thirdly, it is about making it much clearer and sense of and share some of those experiences. accessible how to become a councillor. It has been, Fourthly, key to effective local representation is the and remains to some extent, quite a well-hidden relationship with and connections between councillors secret. When I had a conversation with the late Simon and their constituents. Lastly, it should be less Milton, who was chair of the LGA, he ruefully daunting to become a councillor. A councillor should reflected on the fact that at the time—I know it has be better supported once elected, and to stop being a changed since—even the LGA on their website had councillor should be less daunting. The word we first no information about how to become a councillor and used was “risk”, but we thought that might frighten what councillors did. To be fair, that has changed. the horses, so the word “daunting” was used instead. That was the third wrung. They are the five principles that, in my view, would The fourth wrung is that, once people do become hold for all elected representatives at whatever level councillors, they should be far better supported than of governance, but obviously that was outside our is often the case in many local authorities. It should remit. Our remit was local councillors. It is important be easier to become a councillor; you should be far to frame it. You are asking me where we are now. I better supported once you are there, but also it should do not think there is wide acceptance of those be less risky to stop being a councillor. They were the principles. I suppose we were trying to say that, if you four parts of recommendation 1. While we said we are going to look at the role of councillors and local thought there should be a new statutory duty, we were government, you need to see, as Sir Michael Lyons very non-prescriptive about how local authorities in a talked about, that single system of government. How detailed way would take that forward, because clearly does it all fit together? Frankly, at the moment it is all there would be different and more effective ways of a bit of a hotchpotch. Most people do not have the doing that in Somerset, Northumberland and Camden. faintest idea who does what. What does a councillor That was accepted by the Secretary of State at the do? What does an MP do? What does a non-executive time and incorporated into the White Paper director of what was a PCT do? People do not have “Communities in Control” at the time. It went into the faintest idea how all this works, and you cannot legislation and received Royal Assent. It was not begin to get people involved, engaged and implemented in 2010, and I believe it has now been participating if they do not understand what they are repealed. being asked to engage in. That is a real problem. Our recommendation 1 was absolutely key and was Q3 Bill Esterson: On the issue of councillors fleshing out how we thought local authorities could representing communities, you have said things about give effect to promoting local democratic engagement. Operation Black Vote and the Fawcett Society. Can In our 61 recommendations we were so keen not to you say a bit more about how that could come about, have lots of new national prescription and statutory and perhaps also comment on socio-economic duties here, there and everywhere, because I’ve been background and age as part of the issue of diversity? there and done that; I know it is the last thing Dame Jane Roberts: We used Operation Black Vote councillors want. We did think that there should be and the Fawcett Society as examples very much in the one new statutory duty to promote local democratic context of seeking to get better representation by engagement. I can talk more about that, because it was people from black and minority ethnic communities not just warm words, apple pie and motherhood. and women. People will do that in different ways. We There were four tiers. Would it be helpful if I use those as examples of organisations that have been, explained? 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Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 3
2 July 2012 Dame Jane Roberts in Bristol; it has worked in many different places, Q6 Bill Esterson: How do you deal with that hasn’t it? We were not saying you should use these tendency to stay in power? organisations. It was an example of where some local Dame Jane Roberts: It is a very interesting question. authorities had used those organisations and it had Ultimately, it is a matter of culture. been helpful. It was a mixture of saying to local government, “You guys”—mainly, they are guys— Q7 Bill Esterson: How much of a problem is it? “need to do better in terms of black representation; Dame Jane Roberts: We commissioned a lot of there need to be more women and people from research on some of this. If you look at the pattern, minority ethnic groups.” We know in terms of socio- there is a bit of a split. There are numbers of people economic background there have been big changes. who become councillors for one term and then stand Looking at the report, we know that if you look at the down. There is a disproportionate percentage of education qualifications of councillors they are women and people from black minority considerably higher than those of the general communities—I forgot you asked about age, which I population. I am sure that is true for MPs as well. If will come back to—who are in the group who stand you look at those who come from a working-class or down. There are quite a lot of people who stay for a trade union background, there have been big changes very long period of time. over a period of time. To go back to your question about age, when we were If you are concerned, as I am in, democratic doing our research the average was 57 and then it engagement across the board—national, European and went up to 58. Your research now shows it has gone local government—you should be very concerned at up further still and the average age is 60, so it is white what has increasingly become a political class, which middle-aged men aged 60. I do think that is a problem. has always been there to an extent, that looks and talks Interestingly, in London and in some other places that very differently from those whom they represent. I has changed. We gave examples outside—Reigate and know it will never be exactly the same, but there is Banstead and a number of other places. There were an increasing divergence. That seems to be a bit of a three chunks of research. The third chunk of research problem, particularly at local level; if you want people was to look at five authorities that had a particularly to get involved, it is at the local level where they good record of broadening that out. The political might first get most interested: their children’s school parties did that, but mostly one or two key people and the local park. were determined to change things at a local level and If you are worried about democratic engagement brought change about, which was why I got to the across the board, surely we should look to people’s point of thinking and saying, and I repeat now, that involvement at a local level as a key link. We talked all these things are not that difficult. If you really want about the key link in the chain of governance. That is to change things and implement a whole heap of where people get their first experience and see how recommendations, it is not very difficult. What is things work, such that it makes sense. For most really difficult is having the political will to change it, people, these things just do not make sense. There is because at an institutional level I do not think people a group of people over there, mostly in London, who are really that interested in change. do things about which we have no idea. I know you all work very hard. It is not that people do not work Q8 Bill Esterson: Should we be focusing on the and try very hard. It is about having more people like ability of potential councillors, or the diversity? us out there representing us and doing things on our Dame Jane Roberts: You are presenting them as behalf. though they are mutually exclusive, and I do not think they are necessarily. You are implying that diversity is Q4 Bill Esterson: To what extent do you think a sort of mechanistic head count. Perhaps I am putting councillors are reflective of the people who are words into your mouth. It depends on what you mean members of political parties? What is the role of by “ability”. What makes a good councillor? What parties in attracting a wider range, assuming you you are looking at is a balance of skills across all accept the premise of what I have said? the councillors. You want to get a mix both of your Dame Jane Roberts: The first question was: are population and of different skills across the council as councillors different from those in parties? a whole. The key ability is to engage and listen properly, not just pay lip service, but some councillors Q5 Bill Esterson: Are they representative of the sorts will have come from a community activist of people who are in political parties? background, will want to remain there and spend most Dame Jane Roberts: I am sure from your own of their time on scrutiny. There will be others with a experience, you will always get that. Only 1% of the much more strategic sense who want to change things population—or has it fallen further—are members of at a leadership level. They will have to communicate a political party? It is tiny. We know that in areas well. There is a whole range of skills that councillors where political parties are not very large or active you need. You will not get all of that wrapped up in one can get both councillors and MPs selected by single person, but you might ideally see it reflected across figures, or just into double figures. Obviously, those the council as a whole. I would say in response that people will be the most interested, active and well you need both, and I do not think they are necessarily organised by and large, but incumbency counts for a mutually exclusive. lot. In many places, once you have been selected as a councillor, it is very easy to remain selected for a very Q9 Heidi Alexander: I am interested in the proposals long period of time. that your commission put forward about having a cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Ev 4 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
2 July 2012 Dame Jane Roberts defined role for the councillor that could be adapted shaping, which is a phrase that I like—talking about locally. Can you say something about the thinking that maximising the wellbeing of a place—what is the lay behind that role description, and what purpose you relationship among the leader, directly-elected mayor think it would serve? and MP? We have to think through all of those things. Dame Jane Roberts: It was connected with the issue As to the localism agenda per se, all national that I keep going back to: people have no idea how governments, whether or not they use the term things work, and about who councillors are and what “localism” over the course of the period of time, have they do. I may be a bit out of date, but if a couple of used that rhetoric, but, as Professor Travers has years ago you had looked at most councils’ websites shown, over the course of the last century increasingly they would have given very little idea of what the agenda in today’s parlance has become less and councillors did. It was an attempt to help councils, less localist, certainly in terms of powers and funding. councillors and the wider general public to understand When I looked at the DCLG website very recently, it what councillors did so they had some idea. I have talked about having a strategic view. Then it said, lost count of the number of times—it may well be “What do we do?” and it said, “Weekly bin your experience as well—that people just assume you collections”. do this full time. Most councillors do not, and in my view should not. The idea of the role description was Q11 Heidi Alexander: You talked about the role of to be there as a suggestion. We were trying so hard the councillor as being like a two-way conduit not to be too prescriptive with lots of “must dos”. This between the public and the council officers who speak was a role description that had been drawn up; it was a foreign language half the time. In your report, you one of a number that seemed very useful. A number talked about officers having a lack of understanding of local authorities had adopted it. It gives you some of the political dynamics within an authority and the idea in terms of people who are aspiring to be councils political pressures upon locally elected and the general public, and, once you are there, it representatives. Why did you say that? Is there a body gives guidance in terms of induction and training. It of evidence out there that you felt justified that can be used in many different ways. I think it was statement? taken up. Dame Jane Roberts: I cannot quote it, but there was at the very least anecdotal evidence. When I was Q10 Heidi Alexander: Would you write the same leader I remember being asked to speak to groups of role description today if you were reporting from the civil servants at a course organised by a firm of commission, given some of the changes that are recruiters to officers at tier 3 and tier 4 because there coming through from Government with regard to the was a great demand. I cannot quote the evidence, but localism agenda? Do you see the role of the it is my own personal experience as well. It was councillor changing? reinforced: when there was a change in the political Dame Jane Roberts: I think the general principles we management arrangements between executive and have talked about as regards the role of the councillor scrutiny the contact that officers had with councillors hold true. The role description has a number of was much less, certainly below the director and AD different facets, but essentially we were saying the level. With the best will in the world, any good local general principles held true. We talked about authority should recognise that and help with training councillors being two-way translators, bringing the so that people do understand, and it works both ways. voices of the different communities that they represent If, for example, you come in as a professional social into the council to inform the decision-making worker, part of your social work training is not how process, and similarly making sense of and explaining councillors or how local government work. It is very the decisions that have been taken in the council to easy for councillors to assume that local government constituents, employers, partners and all the rest of it. officers know how it works. I think there is a meeting I think that still holds. That was why we talked about of minds. I did not clock that for a while. I think the the importance of communication skills, connecting chief executive at the time and I had a big meeting people with the institutions of governance. That still with large numbers of staff and a question was asked. holds. I cannot now remember what the question was, but it Things change, even in the period of time since our clearly revealed that the person asking it had no idea final report. Twitter did not exist at that point. The how councillors worked, but why would they? All of internet certainly did. We talked about training, us have some responsibility to recognise that and take induction and all the rest of it to exploit all the steps to do something different. opportunities in the social media. There are changes of that sort at a more operational level, but in terms Q12 Stephen Gilbert: Back in 1998 I was in the of the localism agenda I think the bigger question, unusual position—it is probably still the case—of which I referred to at the end of my written being the country’s youngest councillor at 21 on a submission but which we did not talk about in the district authority in Cornwall. I was also the only Councillors Commission per se, is to think more member out of 50 or so who had a job. When you talk broadly about what councillors do, what leaders of about principle 3—the need for the councillor cohort councils do, what directly-elected mayors do, what to reflect the population—it strikes me that one of the MPs do and what MEPs do. Do they all meet? Do biggest inconsistencies in that is that most councillors they talk? In some places they might; in lots of places in the country do not work; most people in the country they do not. If one is saying that the role of a directly- do. How do we make it easier for people who have elected mayor or council leader is about place jobs to be councillors? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 5
2 July 2012 Dame Jane Roberts
Dame Jane Roberts: I strongly agree with that. Your Q14 Stephen Gilbert: Leading neatly on from that, record was probably beaten. Somebody in Somerset one of the things I have struggled with, looking at was elected at the age of 19. You are absolutely right, some of your conclusions, is that you favour the and it is a really big problem. The problem is that, if multi-member ward system. I have got experience of you are in a position where many councillors do not both having served in an authority in Cornwall and work, the council will be organised in such a way that the London Borough of Haringey, which had a multi- it is for the convenience of those who do not work. I member system. When you talk about the two-way had a conversation with a unitary authority, whose translator and the sense of place being so important, name I will not reveal, most of whose members were surely that is best articulated by one person not working. All the meetings were held in the day. representing an area rather than three, or not. There are choices to be made. You can organise a Dame Jane Roberts: I have had this discussion. Every council in such a way that that does not have to be MP I speak to always says that, partly because, I the case. The response was, “Most of our members guess, there is one MP per constituency, and for very are getting on; they are too tired by the end of the understandable and creditable reasons. There is a great afternoon.” You need a balance of older people and sense of identity. MPs say, “It is my constituency; it younger people. If so, you have to organise the is my place.” I understand and respect that. I have council in such a way that it is possible to have a been a councillor in only one authority, but in two balance. When I was leader and we had events where wards. We did come down strongly in favour of multi- councillors from all three main political parties were member wards for a number of different reasons, speaking, I made a point to say, “If you want to be a which I can go into, but I do not see why the fact backbench councillor, it is important we make it there are two others of you means there is not that possible for you to do this on a limited amount of strong attachment to the ward. It means you have to time.” make sure that constituents understand that there are We happened to have meetings in the evening. I three and who they are, but there are lots of appreciate that if you are in Lincolnshire County advantages to that. It means, for example, that you Council, for example, you have a huge number of can have a spread of people of different backgrounds, miles to travel, which is why you should not be genders and skills. There were times when someone prescriptive, but you could have meetings at different would come to one of my surgeries and say, “It would times. Even Camden would not do this. When I was be really useful if you speak to X because they’ve chair of the education committee I said, “Why don’t had experience.” we move the time from seven o’clock to 4.30? We For all sorts of reasons, it is much more sensible to can get some of the teachers who have just come out have a multi-member ward. For example, I had a baby of school, parents and sixth-formers.” The response when I was a councillor. It meant it was possible for was, “Ah!” Not all meetings have to be at the same one of my co-ward councillors to do surgeries for a time; they could be at different times; you could month, so I did not have to do it. It is all a bit of a change them. You have a fixed time to finish; you juggling act, and in a way it has to be. That is not a have succinct agendas; you have proper support and bad thing, but you have to make it possible. I think IT. All sorts of ways, which we talk about in this that one of the advantages, as well as having diversity report, would make it possible. If people are currently and a balance of skills, is that it makes it more doing it full time, there is no incentive to do it in any possible to juggle things in that way. I do not buy the other way. idea that you cannot have a sense of attachment to place on that basis. Q13 Stephen Gilbert: The issue is the intransigence of incumbents to want change that you have referred Q15 Stephen Gilbert: In terms of juggling and to already. Can I pick up on what you said about looking at it from the employer’s perspective, if an support? I do not think that any of us could do our employee wanted to go off and become a councillor, jobs effectively if we did not have the professional to address that balance of working people on councils support we have got, and yet we expect councillors, in there are risks for the employee in terms of how the the case of Cornwall with a budget of over £1 billion a employer is going to react, and there are risks for the year, to do it without professional support. Is there a employer in terms of having a member of staff who role for providing secretarial support to councillors? is not around all the time and the unpredictability that Dame Jane Roberts: Absolutely. It is antediluvian. To leads to. In your report you talk about a financial be a councillor and representative of a local place is compensation scheme for businesses. Do you think the embodiment of place. In this day and age, that is feasible in the economic climate we are in? If geographical place is still hugely important for us all, that is not feasible, what other things can we do to and local government is the embodiment of that. minimise the downside for working people in relation These are important roles that need to be properly to their employers? supported to argue the case, which is partly why we Dame Jane Roberts: They are really well-made talked about national minimum standards. It is quite points, and there is a big section here about difficult because it is seen as “feathering the nest”; employers. I would start off by saying that there are similarly with the national framework for allowances, risks but there are advantages also to employers. but they should be properly supported, whether it is When we went into it in a bit more detail there was council surgeries, case work, diary management, the well-known example of Rolls-Royce, but a survey research, ward or division information, whatever it was done at the same time. We had a good might be. Of course there should be proper support. conversation with the Institute of Directors who did a cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Ev 6 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
2 July 2012 Dame Jane Roberts survey at the time, because most businesses are small- Dame Jane Roberts: What we were suggesting was and medium-sized enterprises. For them, if you have a national framework, not national prescription. The three or four employees it is a whole different ball reasoning for that—you will know this from your game compared with Rolls-Royce or BT. Even with experience as MPs and councillors—is that it is very smaller employers, particularly around place, there are difficult to raise allowances for councillors. We came real advantages. Is this financial compensation scheme across shocking examples. The average at the time viable in the current austere times? The truth is was £5,000 a year and for leaders it was £16,000. If probably not. But we did not even think that was the you look at any other cases, whether it is non-exec most important thing; we thought the most important directors of all sorts, it is really shocking, but it is thing was the nature of the relationship with the very difficult to do that. The idea of a framework was employer. When I look back now, as leader I worked simply to have suggestions that varied by the type and very hard to engage local businesses in all sorts of size of authority. There would be plenty of room for ways. It never occurred to me at the time—I say this decisions to be made. If local authorities wanted to set with some chagrin—to talk to them about their up their own independent panel, it did not preclude employees standing as councillors and the advantages. them from doing that. It was there as a national It just did not occur to me. We had really good framework to be used to make it a bit easier, relationships with them. That was a bit of a lesson. It especially for those local authorities where allowances is about engaging with local employers, which you are pitifully low, to do something about that. would want to be doing anyway, whether it is about the economy, jobs, schools or education, but also Q18 Mark Pawsey: It must be very interesting to talking about some of the advantages. you to see us covering much of the same ground you We talked to lots of employers. There was a chunk of covered only five years or so ago. Do you think there employers who would not be keen on their employees is an inevitability that we will end up with broadly the becoming councillors, but I was surprised that a same conclusions that you did: that there is not much sizeable chunk were very prepared to think about point in looking at the role of the councillor without more flexible or part-time working. Most of them did having a broader review of how the democratic not have HR policies to cover that, but really would like to. One of our recommendations was that there system works in this country? Do you think we are could be some sort of template and information to going to be able to concentrate just on the individuals employers about being much more proactive in the who are responsible at a local level, or do you think nature of the relationship, obviously if the councillor we are going to get dragged into the broader debate wants it because there are some councillors who do that you referred to? not tell their employers. We respect that. But there are Dame Jane Roberts: I would argue that you should others where there are letters saying, “Thank you from get drawn into the broader debate. I have not the local authority.” There are all sorts of ways, but at mentioned it here, but we argue throughout the report the moment employers are a bit like the general that part of the issue is about the perception of local public: by and large they have no idea what government and of councillors. I am not evangelical councillors do. by nature but I am an evangelist for local government. I am no longer a councillor. I think it is hugely under- Q16 Heather Wheeler: On the point about Rolls- sung and undervalued, but I am in a minority of Royce, there are two South Derbyshire district 0.05%, or whatever it might be. That is not the general councillors who are Rolls-Royce employees. We are perception; it is not the general perception in very grateful for the community involvement that they Whitehall, in Government, in the media or out there. give us day in and day out. I am interested in the level At the same time, all the changes that have come of support and training that councillors need to enable about—lack of trust and lack of engagement at all them to do their job. I think you have pretty much tiers of governance—are becoming a greater problem. suggested that it is patchy, to say the least. Do you There is only so much Whitehall can do about that. think a bit of it is because some councillors do not You have to see local government as part of the want to take up the training, not just that the councils solution, not part of the problem. This is not a party- are a bit useless at offering it sometimes? political statement. The previous Government Dame Jane Roberts: Sometimes that is the case. What introduced a paper on the governance of Britain that we recommended was a quid pro quo. There should did not talk about local government. The current be training but an explicit expectation that it is taken Government refer to localism but talk about weekly up, so absolutely yes. bin collections. It is a real problem we have to grasp. I think it is an issue about the powers of local Q17 Heather Wheeler: That is interesting. You have government and about finance; it is an issue about already given your views on the lack of administrative perception. Unless you tackle all of those and see that support for councillors, but I wonder whether this fits local government is potentially an important part of in slightly with the benefits of having a national the solution to the democratic malaise, we will not go framework for members’ allowances, or whether it anywhere; we just go round and round in circles. You ought to be dealt with locally, because in effect they will not get people standing who are more widely are a sort of employee but they could be self- representative and able councillors because, while the employed and could have their own secretarial perception is that it is for also-rans, why would you support. What do you feel about that? do that? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 7
2 July 2012 Dame Jane Roberts
Q19 Mark Pawsey: How would you increase You would have a real razzmatazz about it. In some knowledge of local democracy, particularly given that places on local election day, there is nothing there. I there are different systems in different areas for tried to do more of this in Camden. Make it much perfectly good reasons? In some areas there can be as more of a razzmatazz, whether it is through schools. many as five people responsible for the delivery of There are all sort of things you can do. Now with the services. How would you make sure people are social media there is a huge amount more you can do, better informed? but if you did it in one time in one go by region you Dame Jane Roberts: I would adopt all 61 could have a good local debate. There are all sorts of recommendations of our report. You would not have things you can do. to do 61, but certainly 55. There were one or two that were put in to be provocative, and they were. It is at Q20 Mark Pawsey: How confident are you that if all levels, isn’t it? But, ultimately, that is why the recommendations you made a few years ago were recommendation 1 in my view was the key one. The implemented we would achieve the objectives we are local authority was to be the key in saying, “These are all looking to see in terms of age and socio-economic the conditions that obtain in our patch, South profile of councillors moving forward? Will that do Derbyshire; these are the people, institutions and the the trick? way these things work.” You could really make a push Dame Jane Roberts: The evidence is very clear that in South Derbyshire, but at the very least you need to if people want to make change—there are places do much more in terms of schools and citizenship. where key people want to make change—they can do Citizenship is seen as being a bit of a doss. Lewisham so. The issue is the political will to do so. had a fantastic scheme; it had a young mayor, and, as we quote in here, it had a 45% turnout, which was Q21 Simon Danczuk: There is one thing we have higher than in the local elections. Most young people not discussed. Is not a big part of the equation the have no idea who councillors are and what they do. culture within local political parties? Is that not a big You have got to start at that level. There is a whole factor in all of this? range of different things you can do. All of us might Dame Jane Roberts: It is indeed. There is so much to know what a county, a district, a parish or a town is, talk about. It is a bit of a problem, but we live in a but in many parts of the country when you talk about complex world. There is no one magic bullet, so, yes, local government it is bewildering to people. We did absolutely. The political parties are key to all of this. not advocate this; I advocated it—we were very There is a lot of evidence that it is much more difficult diplomatic in this. Unitary authorities make a whole to get selected than to get elected, so the political heap of sense because there is one authority. People parties are absolutely key to this. There is a problem have talked about three different tiers of government in some parties in some places—not everywhere—that might be responsible for one roundabout. It is I witnessed. Where things have changed the political bonkers, and then we expect people to understand parties have done it, but in other places it is too and engage. inward-looking. Bright new things do not get training; Then we talked about multi-member wards and they are suppressed; they are a threat to the leadership. making these tiers more clear, but it is very baffling. We have to face that head on. Some places do all-out elections; some do it in thirds. Chair: Thank you very much indeed for talking to us You never know quite who you are voting for, where about the Councillors Commission and quite a few and how. Wouldn’t it make more sense to have a local other issues as well. That is a very helpful start to election day? Do it by region, not on a super Tuesday our inquiry. as in the States. Have local elections in that region.
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Professor Colin Copus, Professor of Local Politics, De Montfort University, Liz Richardson, Research Fellow, University of Manchester, and Professor Michael Thrasher, Professor of Politics, Plymouth University, gave evidence.
Q22 Chair: Good afternoon and welcome to the first asking Professor Thrasher if he could say a little about evidence session in our inquiry into councillors and the survey he has done on the characteristics of those the community. For the sake of our records, could you standing at local elections. Just give us the main say who you are and the organisation you represent? findings to kick off our session. That would be a helpful start. Professor Thrasher: It struck us some years ago that Liz Richardson: My name is Liz Richardson and I there were a lot of surveys of councillors, but not of work for the University of Manchester. the candidates. We knew a fair amount about the Professor Thrasher: I am Michael Thrasher from the people who stood and won in local elections but not elections centre at Plymouth University. those who stood and failed to win. We began a Professor Copus: I am Colin Copus from the Local national survey in 2006 of England and Wales, and Government Research Unit at De Montfort University. we have been carrying out that survey ever since. We randomly select candidates from the nomination lists Q23 Chair: Thank you for coming and for the published by local authorities. We used to send a evidence you have supplied so far. Let me begin by postal questionnaire. In 2011 and 2012, the survey has cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Ev 8 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher been conducted online. Essentially, the findings from only thing I can talk about or the one thing I just the 2012 survey, which I sent to this Committee, are can’t talk about because it pigeonholes me.” The main broadly in line with surveys undertaken both by post reason you would want to try to increase the diversity and, last year, online. The broad picture is that the of representation is to do with reputation. Jane Roberts people who stand for local election are very similar to talked about the perception of the reputation of the those who sit on the local council benches. There is democratic system. It looks really bad, and it is not a notion or understanding that if only these people symptomatic of the lack of openness of the candidate would resign and stand aside, or the electorate would selection system, the lack of active recruitment from get rid of them at the ballot box, we would have a parties, and occasionally bad attitudes towards brand new set of local councillors, so in the sense that candidates. Insofar as it is symptomatic of all these local government is often characterised as male, pale bad things, it is a good thing to push parties on. and stale—in other words, it is dominated by men and Dame Jane Roberts already mentioned the research largely older white people—that is also true of we did. We did five case studies of places that slightly candidates. The only difference is that candidates are bucked the trend1 and did better. Parties were doing slightly more likely to be women, but only slightly so; brilliant things: they were fast-tracking; they are slightly younger, but then you would expect talent-scouting; mentoring; advertising for non-party that because they have not sat on the council benches members who agreed broadly with the ideology; and for four years, and they are just as white as the they were using apprenticeships, but the gap was in councillors. It really drove home to us that, no matter the role for officers and councils more broadly. Our what happened in terms of the ballot box, local work was one of the studies cited in support of the government was not going to change. creation of the duty to promote democracy. I was What we were also trying to do was find out why really happy about that but it was a bit of a damp people stood for local council election; who they squib, which was a real shame. I do not think it was were; and what motivated them to stand in the first repealed because it was necessarily a bad idea but place. For some of the questions we asked we now partly because the current Administration prefers the have five or six years of data to support. Sometimes idea of community rights than duties on public bodies. we ask questions that are, if you like, contemporary Duties just are not very popular at the moment. The in nature. For example, this year, for obvious reasons, role for the authority in promoting democracy to we asked the candidates (just to remind ourselves, the increase representation and diversity is a key gap. candidates are local party activists by and large, so Professor Copus: I would add a note of scepticism. this is really a window into the soul of local parties We have to ask the big question that Jane Roberts and how they are thinking) we asked them questions talked about: what is the role of the councillor? In about whether they approved of directly elected much the same way, we have to ask the question: what mayors. No. Did they approve of elected justices of the role of local government? Without asking and the peace? No. Did they approve of police and crime answering that question, it is very difficult to start to commissioners? No. Did they approve of talk about reforms of systems and the composition of referendums? Yes. That surprised me somewhat. Did councils. One of my worries is what this does to the they approve of recall elections? In other words, if system of representative democracy as we understand councillors are found to have been at fault, can we it at the moment. If we are looking to increase call them to account rather like they do in California diversity among the councillor population, what is the and elsewhere, and have another election? They are in expectation on councillors who are elected? Are they favour of that. expected, as under the system at the moment, to be The questions vary: some are repeated, so we have representative of their entire community, or will they rather good documentary evidence now about their come under pressure to represent just parts of that attitudes, and there are other questions that occur for community? That is the danger. just one particular year. In some of the work I have done among councillors from ethnic groups, they admit they come under Q24 Chair: We now have questions for all the panel. pressure to take up issues that are very specific to If, as we go through it, there is something one of your those communities, but they are quite resentful of that. colleagues says that you agree with, just tell us that Many argue that they are not there simply to represent you agree with it. That is absolutely fine, and we can one part of a community. Most councillors subscribe get through more questions that way. Is it important to what I call the Burkean approach to representation: that we try to encourage more people from under- generally, they are here to represent the interests of represented groups to stand? Who should be doing the community. There is a real question about what that? Is it mainly a role for the parties? Should would the increased diversity bring. It may bring what councillors themselves be a bit concerned about Liz referred to: just not looking so bad. getting into that sort of territory where they get Political parties are responsible not only for recruiting involved in encouraging people to stand? campaigns but the way in which politics in local Liz Richardson: There is not necessarily very full government is conducted. I have come to the evidence about the argument that a more diverse conclusion that, even if you radically changed the group of members would change policy outcomes or composition of council chambers, without doing guarantee a better representation of interests, although something about the way in which political parties that is the idea. The jury is out on that one. It also 1 This research refers to case studies of local authorities with puts candidates in a tricky position. When we talked higher than average levels of diversity in representation of to candidates they said, “It means either that is the local councillors. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 9
2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher conducted the business of local government, you Liz Richardson: Where there are, for example, large would not get much difference anyway, along the lines minority ethnic populations parties are happier to put that you were finding by certain people winning rather in minority ethnic candidates because they see that as than losing. a no brainer, but diversity candidates, if you want to call them that, are more likely to get “no hope” seats Q25 Chair: Why is that? than winnable seats in other situations, because parties Professor Copus: To give an example, the think that the electorate will not stand for someone disciplinary mechanisms of political party groups in who looks different. That is a very crude summary, local government are often far more rigid than those sorry. you would experience as Members of Parliament. There are not one-, two- and three-line whips; if there Q31 Bob Blackman: I invite you to come to my are, that is an unusual process in local government. borough and do a survey, because you will find it is completely different. In my experience, most parts of Q26 Bob Blackman: I totally disagree with you. London are completely different from the world you Professor Copus: All I can tell you from the are describing. It may be true in other parts of the conclusions of my work is that, if you meet in private country that this is a problem, but my experience of and make a decision and councillors are bound by it, London politics is completely different from that and there are fewer opportunities for people to be able to from what we have heard from the rest of the panel. have the sort of public debates you would expect from We want to hear clear evidence. I am concerned that a more diverse councillor community. the evidence we are hearing so far is not the world that I inhabit. Q27 Chair: Let me challenge you on that. If the Liz Richardson: I could send you and colleagues a debate inside private meetings is between a different breakdown of the last elections, if you want. group of people, and there are more young people, Professor Thrasher: When we ask people what women and people from ethnic minorities at those motivated them to stand in the first place and whether meetings, surely you have a greater chance of they themselves decided, “I can do this?” four in 10 influencing their outcome which then carries through say, “I made the decision myself.” The remaining six into the public arena. were asked to stand. That immediately tells you that Professor Copus: You may well do, but, if a group is in the majority of cases people are asked to stand. still controlled by a white male middle-aged We asked those people who decided to stand what the population, the likelihood of increased numbers biggest reason was. They said, “I can make a changing that is contestable. difference.” That is in their mindset. As to those people who were asked to stand, they were asked Q28 Bob Blackman: Can I ask all three witnesses a mostly by a fellow party member or sitting councillor, question? You have identified a problem, which I can so it is an informal network within parties. That really understand, about increasing the diversity. What do is the nub of the problem, inasmuch as if the party you think in your survey and evidence is the barrier networks are circumscribed, in that the party members to that selection process? Is it the local political party? are talking to fellow party member who are largely Is it the attitude of certain individuals? Is it the male, white and older, you have to break outside community which says, “There’s no point. Don’t those networks. even bother”? We ask candidates, “Why do you think certain Liz Richardson: One of the big things we found was groups—women, ethnic minorities or young people— that the parties are trying to second-guess what voters are under-represented on councils?” The answers are will stand. When they do that, they second-guess the different; there is no one size explanation that fits all electorate to be more conservative. It is difficult to the problems. In respect of women, they talk about say; we do not know because people do not get put family commitments and the problem of balancing all into winnable seats.2 these kinds of resource issues. In the case of ethnic minorities, interestingly enough, because most of our Q29 Bob Blackman: Are you seriously suggesting respondents are white, many of the responses are the political parties are saying that people are more neutral. They do not have a strong opinion one way likely to vote for white males rather than women, for or the other that it is a problem of too few people example? coming forward, or a problem of families. They prefer Liz Richardson: That is what we are saying based on to sit on the fence, perhaps rightly so, because they evidence from talking to candidates and potential do not know what the explanation for that is. In terms candidates. of younger people, they say they are not interested in politics and too few come forward. If one were Q30 Bob Blackman: In areas of high ethnic looking for solutions to a problem, quite definitely minorities, parties would rather have white males than they all feel that local authorities are not in the representatives of those local communities ,which business of recruiting candidates for local elections. It might be quite substantial communities? is not the job of local authorities to do that. By all means, publicise what local authorities do and display 2 This research refers to candidates and potential candidates how to become a candidate and what the timetable is, for election to national political institutions, rather than local councillors. (Research papers supplied to the Committee— but do not try to recruit candidates. That is the job of not published with this report.) political parties. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Ev 10 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher
Q32 Bill Esterson: To pick up your last answer about unrecognised and unrewarded, and often vilified for why people stand for election, perhaps all three of you what they do. can say why people stand again. I just draw your attention to a new programme starting Liz Richardson: When you ask people why they today on BBC television about a corrupt council. I stand, their explanation is that they feel a strong sense know immediately that councillors will be stopped in of civic duty. If you are thinking about how you might the street and told, “You’re just like that Christopher market or appeal to people in terms of new potential Eccleston character.” This is something that local candidates, the idea that you try to do the best for your authority members have to put up with, and they do, community is a very strong and powerful one. and continually seeking re-election becomes almost Another reason people get involved is that they drift like a drug. into it. As Dame Jane Roberts said earlier, they might As to the reason members are standing down, there is start doing one thing and then drift into doing some an awful lot of overseas research. I have not seen any more stuff and there you are. As Michael says, it has relating to this country, but often it is to do with the been shown, both in the UK and US, that being asked professionalisation of politics, and local government is a very strong driver. There lots of different forms in particular, which means the job is transformed into of civic activity. There is a very large study on that something a member did not originally expect. and some very good evidence. Obviously, there is Could I mention briefly one thing which relates to the power and self-interest. You cannot discount that; you question of age more than anything else? The other need a little of that to get going. day I was interviewing a councillor in his early 70s. As to why people stand again, the main issue is why He had been an elected member for 42 years, which people stand down. We do not know what puts them means that when he was elected he was in his early off and why they stand down. Some authorities are 30s. He was one of those young people we are now now starting to do exit interviews to try to find out a seeking to stand. The difficulty is that when you get little more about what put them off. Was it something those young people elected at what time do you dare to do with them or something we did to them? The say to them, “You’re now too old”? That gentleman idea is to find out why people leave rather than why has given 42 years of his life to serve his community. they stay, because why they stay is a little more It is a very difficult nut to crack. obvious. Professor Thrasher: Was your question about Professor Copus: If I may pick up the thread Liz was councillors or candidates? leading into—because that takes me to your question—the issue about why parties select whom Q33 Bill Esterson: I started with candidates and they select and for which seats is often driven by the went on to ask why councillors stand again. realities of politics. If you are involved in politics and Professor Thrasher: The answer to the question is putting yourself forward for election, you will want a that a lot of councillors do not stand again. They have winnable seat. I remember that the first time I stood one shot. They do enjoy it but they do not have for a council I was asked, “If we wanted to select another shot at it. More than a third of candidates who somebody from a minority group, would you stand stand do so on the basis that they are a paper candidate down?” My reaction was, “Over my dead body. This only. They do not do any campaigning in their own is a seat I want to fight.” The realities of politics are ward, but they will campaign in other wards, so they such that, if you are putting yourself forward, you are are helping out the local party. Other people stand asking people to make considerable sacrifices by because they are the only volunteers. With regard to expecting them to step aside to enhance diversity. councillors we did an analysis some years ago. We Those issues need to be considered, because they are worked out that the average councillor sits for seven also part of the wider picture of why people stand for years, which means they probably have one period of election in the first place, why they stand again and re-election and then exit, so they are re-elected once why they decide to stand down. and then exit. They exit either because of the electoral The conclusion I have been led to is that councillors political cycle, which sees them off because they are stand again because there is a sense of an unfinished not sitting in a safe ward, or simply because they have job. That unfinished job is never finished. They are had enough. In our survey we asked the specific always confronting a new set of problems; they are question, “Why do you think so many councillors always confronting the realities of working very stand down after four years?” Most people answered closely and immediately with a community. There is that the job was too time-consuming. a sense that if you stand down you are letting down a group of people. With the greatest respect to members Q34 Bill Esterson: Colin, earlier you touched on of this Committee, the lives of councillors are much under-representation of ethnic minorities. Do you more immediate to the people they represent. They think that the issue about people who just represent are on call 24 hours a day. I had one Christmas Day the part of the community they come from is true only phone call from a constituent. This is not unusual— of ethnic minorities, or does it happen in other groups obviously, Christmas Day was. You may be stopped as well? anywhere with inquiries being made about either Professor Copus: People have a very complex something very specific or a policy decision taken by relationship with the electorate and the idea of what it the council. That becomes a self-fulfilling motivation is that a councillor represents. From my research, for people. The desire to stay engaged with that many councillors will say that for them up there with community is part of the reason why councillors the key issues about what they represent is their continue to do the job. I have to say they are largely political party. If you look at the figures, in many cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 11
2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher respects they speak for themselves. I think I have It is great when your party wins all the seats on the quoted in the paper that in England about 93% of all council. I have been a member of a council where that councillors come from one of the three main political has been the case. You just have to ask yourself: do parties. A clear focus of representative attention for a you need that many? Can we take a different large number of those members is their party; they approach? Rather than just addressing recruitment of see that as the vehicle through which they represent party candidates, parties also need to address how they the public. respond to non-party candidates.
Q35 Bill Esterson: Therefore, the group that that Q37 Bill Esterson: Michael and Liz, do you have party mainly represents. Is that the point you make? any thoughts on independent councillors, and whether Professor Copus: That is the link, but it is not that would make a difference and it is a good thing? exclusive because many members often get labelled Professor Thrasher: Independent councillors are “parochial” because they focus very much on their more likely to be male and older. Does that answer ward or division. That ward or division and its needs your question? and requirements takes priority over the council as a whole. For those more policy-oriented members, that Q38 David Heyes: I would say that community parochial member can often be a problem and almost leadership should be central to the role of the stands aside from the real job of the council, which is councillor. You have all used that terminology in your to represent the entity called “the council”. But the work and in the evidence you have put to us. Do you idea of representative focus is many-faceted, so some all mean the same thing by it? Briefly, what do each would be looking at their ward; some members would of you mean when you use the term “community be looking at representing their parties; some will see leadership”? themselves as spokespeople rather than Liz Richardson: It has been 12 years and we still do representatives of certain minority communities. not quite know what this thing is. Moreover, for There is a difference between acting as a spokesperson people who do know what it is there is too much of a of a group and seeing yourself as representative solely disparity between people who are good at it and do of this interest. In my work I have not come across lots of it, and people who are not very good at it and anybody from minority communities who admit that do not do very much of it. One conclusion some their job is just to represent that community. I think people might draw is that there are too many that if we did start to find that we would be moving councillors doing too little community leadership. The into quite dangerous territory. other way to see the problem is that it is about getting out there and mobilising other people to contribute to Q36 Bill Esterson: In your submission, you said solving problems, or making things better; it is about about 93% of councillors were members of one of the brokering controversial issues; and it is about making main political parties. My reaction to that point is that decisions jointly with communities. That raises a few people vote for them. Do you see a way forward big problems. The first is that it means that being a from that? councillor in a ward or area is not just about having a Professor Copus: It is very difficult. I come to that war chest, like a community grant scheme, to conclusion as well. You have to say that if 93% come distribute your largesse among the community. It from the main political parties then the electorate must means you need to see power as something to be be happy with that, but the electoral system and the shared and it is not a zero sum game, and decide way in which the ward boundaries are drawn also adds criteria for resource allocation jointly with to that. The difficulty of independents securing communities, so everyone can make decisions elections is partly a political opportunity structure as together. That is a really hard one. You need to well the fact that political parties are able maybe to persuade communities to generate alternative control what is happening within wards or divisions. solutions by deliberating with them. That is a really But the issue is about how parties respond. If that is hard one. Also, say “yes” to people more often by perceived to be a problem—I made the point that the taking some risks. That is really hard. I think that biggest under-represented group is those who are not being a community leader is quite a hard thing and members of political parties—parties have a challenges a lot of assumptions about politics. responsibility for the way in which they can start to Professor Thrasher: I do not really know about this, introduce, say, a slightly lighter touch to the conduct but I will just make two points. Firstly, only about of politics and elections, for example endorsing and 60% to 70% of incumbent councillors reside in the supporting candidates. This is particularly the case ward that they represent, so I think we run into with elected mayors, maybe less so with councillors, problems when we have this notion of community, though I think there is also a case for councillors, in with the councillors embedded within their that parties do not necessarily need to stand candidates communities. They live outside of the community that if there is a candidate there that they find broadly they represent on the council; this is particularly true acceptable. If an independent happened to be from an in London, of course. Secondly, community is not a ethnic minority community and put themselves fixed sense in the electoral definition, because local forward as an independent, it is likely that a political ward boundaries are changed, so what we perceive party would stand a candidate against him or her who sociologically as a community is not necessarily the might be from an over-represented group. It is not just same thing or fixed electorally. Currently, there is a about selection; it is also about the process of election fetish for electoral equality, both in terms of local and how parties can be perhaps a little more sensitive. ward boundaries and in terms of constituency cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Ev 12 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher boundaries and the more you struggle for electoral opportunity to show that ability and they are a key equality the more you have to ignore what notions of asset to local councils as well. community and community boundaries are. That One of the questions that used to be asked about raises problems, I think, in terms of what constitutes councillors and is not anymore, because we have community leadership and who has it and how moved into a new territory of diversity, is about the difficult it is for councillors who do not live in the calibre of elected councillors. This is a very, very old place that they are representing to become discussion, which, as I say, has now been sidelined, community leaders. but you get the elected members who are elected and Professor Copus: All I would add to that is it is about there is absolutely no problem, in my mind, in training leadership of place and leadership of communities of and developing those members. What you have to be interest. Those two are not always conflicting but not careful about is that you do not train them to become always necessarily compatible aspects of leadership. I council officers, and that you recognise that the role think there are councillors who see themselves very of an elected member is very distinct to that of a much wedded to leadership of place. What Michael council officer and, indeed, is part of the mechanisms said is absolutely right about not living within the by which the bureaucracy of the council is held to wards, but councillors can very, very quickly adopt account. I have to say that an awful lot of training I the requirements—and indeed they do—of individual have observed tends to train members in being what wards. If they lose their seats or they are deselected officers think would make good members. Really and they move somewhere else, they very quickly what we need to find out about is the skills that adopt to placing that new area as a priority. The idea members need to develop. of leading place or at least being prominent and wedded to place is something that elected councillors Q40 Simon Danczuk: Some councillors that I have understand. Leading communities of interest takes a met do not need any encouragement to try and broader and more complex set of processes and you emulate council officers, but moving on to other tend to find that the two are often played by matters, starting with you, Colin, it is related to the councillors with different takes on what being an community leadership stuff. You talked about elected representative is. localisation of decision-making and in your written evidence you put forward a raft of suggestions—some Q39 David Heyes: I would like to get into this in interesting ones—really getting down to a ward level greater depth, but the Chair is not going to let me. in terms of what changes could be made to engage Just one follow up question: is there a skills gap then, councillors in engaging with their community. Any between each of your conceptions of what the particular two of those, out of that list that you community leadership is and what is available in the provided, that you think really do the business? current cohort of councillors and candidates? What Professor Copus: I think the delegation of budgets can we do about it, if there is a gap? to wards. Liz Richardson: Partly what I was trying to argue is that the gap is not just skills; it is about fundamentally Q41 Simon Danczuk: Do you mean significant how we do politics and who has power and who amounts of money? makes decisions. Over and above that, yes, people Professor Copus: need support and training. The regional employers’ Clearly, the amount involved would organisations provide quite a lot of brilliant training. have to suit each individual council, but I think the I have been involved in a scheme called the North ability for members to spend money on specific local West Employers Member Development Charter, Level projects would require them to negotiate and to 2. The basic question is if you plough money into compromise and to build alliances within their wards giving training for councillors and sending them on or their divisions to be able to prioritise particular what could be seen as jollies but which are not, does projects. They would be the ones who would be it then generate benefits, not for you lot, not for them making those decisions. They would be accountable lot, but for the community? I, as an academic, make for the expenditure of that money and it would be them jump lots of hoops to give academic standards them who would have to take the responsibility at the of evidence that there is community benefit from ballot box for making the decisions that they make. investment in skills. I think that is what is useful to The other area where I would like to see the role of try to protect that type of investment in something members strengthened within their wards is the ability that looks potentially frivolous at a very, very pushed to make decisions generally. I know we talk about financial time. general competence powers as being something that Professor Thrasher: I am going to pass, if you do not relates to local government as an entity, but I mean mind, and defer to my colleague. the ability to take policy and political decisions of an Professor Copus: One of the real problems in local executive nature only within the ward. I am aware of government is the self-denying ordinance at the the issues of how those decisions would have to align moment and that there is an unwillingness to want with the broader executive decisions, but the reality to support the development of councillor skills and of the structure at the moment is that we do, in most abilities, because it is seen as though you are spending councils, have executive members and those members money in constrained times. There are most definitely who are not in the executive. That does not mean to skills gaps, but, at the same time, there are elected say that executive decision-making cannot be shared members who have levels of ability that, in other areas within wards. That then recognises the reality of the of occupation, they simply would not get the new institutional structure—well, it is not that new; it cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 13
2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher is over 10 years old now. So, certainly, budgets to drowning sensation. They said that where it is bad spend and decisions to take. they get weird and wonderful correspondence from officers who just drown them in this stuff so they Q42 Simon Danczuk: Michael, Liz, just briefly then cannot be accused of hiding anything, but it is all before we move on: how much influence do irrelevant. backbench councillors have in the current system and is that an issue? Q45 Mark Pawsey: Can I follow that point, because Professor Thrasher: You are asking the wrong in your evidence you spoke about, where there was person; I am sorry. support, councillors being inundated with data from Liz Richardson: There is a massive role here for the officers and it getting in the way of them doing their decentralisation agenda. I completely agree with Colin job. You say that partly is officers covering their back that you could push a lot more down to the by saying, “Yes, of course I told you. I sent you an neighbourhood or the area or the ward level to give email.” How would you deal with that? How would backbenchers or frontline members a bit more of a run you solve that problem? at it, but it is about the earlier point I was making Liz Richardson: The two things that might help are if about that not becoming a war chest that is then you got a nominated officer or a series of nominated distributed. As I said in my submissions, one of the officers who could act as a conduit or an intermediary. accusations that you do not want to talk—that Neighbourhood workers in Bradford act as that person members that I speak to do not want to talk about but who has a sense of what is useful for my members the citizens all want to talk about is what the that I am supporting and what is not, and can filter out Americans call “pork-barrel politics”. I am not saying all this rubbish. With democratic services and member it is right; I am just saying that that really does not services within authorities, it is usually one lady and help the situation. Having jointly agreed criteria for half a person, isn’t it? No one really cares about them resource allocation within and between and no one takes them that seriously and they do the neighbourhoods with citizens and members is my big most amazing job. They used to provide a lot more thing that would help this; it would delegate budgets administrative support for members under the old without it becoming a politicised, unfair situation. committee system than they do now. I think those Professor Thrasher: On just a practical level, though, roles could be beefed up. if you are about to change the ward boundaries, that is going to make it interesting, having ward-level Q46 Mark Pawsey: Professor Copus, you spoke budgets. about the need to ensure that councillors are not Simon Danczuk: Yes, good point. trained to be officers, but is there not a danger that the more training you do the more like officers they Q43 Mark Pawsey: Could I just ask a couple of become, rather than representatives of the community, question about the support councillors receive? We and they start getting involved in techno-speak? Also, had some evidence on that in our earlier session and some authorities seem to be run by councillors and the difference between the support for an MP and a other authorities seem to be run by officers. Have you councillor. Professor Thrasher, you spoke about got any views about whether one or the other is a councillors only doing one term and then another better model? term. Is one of the reasons, from the survey you have Professor Copus: I have to be very careful about that; done, that councillors stand down that they do not I still have an academic career to maintain in local receive enough support in the role? government. Professor Thrasher: We have asked that question in I think on the issue of support to members, there is the past; it might sound strange, but no. Councillors most definitely a scattered pattern across the country. generally believe that they receive a level of support Some councils provide exemplary support to from the local authority that they demanded, so they members, others provide minimal support, but the were generally pleased. This is only the councillors, issue is: what is the nature of the support that the of course, who can speak about this—or former member wants? Often what councillors will say is councillors, of course—but they were generally they want information. It is very easy, as has just been approving of what the local authorities had done for said, to drown in information. What members really them in terms of assisting their role of being a require is the appropriate information in the right size, councillor. It was generally positive. at the right place, at the right time, and on the right issue, so the question is not just about providing Q44 Mark Pawsey: Could either of the other members with material. witnesses tell us whether you think councillors would The way I would look at it is that servicing the be more effective and enjoy the job more if they had requirements of the politician should be seen as just more support? as much a task of the authority as running any one of Liz Richardson: There are two things that councillors its services. After all, this is a politically in several areas have said to me. They would representative institution, and you have to support appreciate having more electronic systems that politicians in conducting their activities and doing allowed them to track jobs—for example, Newcastle their job. For example, if a member wanted to conduct already has this; there are lots of examples. That is some research into recycling policies, who would they very practical. The other big thing is I did some work; go to, who would they ask and where would be that we tried to look at where the volume of point of contact? If they went to an officer in the correspondence comes from for councillors—the appropriate department, the chances are that particular cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Ev 14 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher request would sit somewhere until he or she perhaps On the other hand, it is absolutely vital that we have found time to get round to doing it. So the idea that a group of elected members that do not become part policy and research support to members is something of the machine. The danger with the full-time member that is done on the side is no longer sustainable. I is that they become too close maybe to the council think local authorities have to bite the bullet on that that they are running and so, therefore, you do need and provide proper services to their members. those lay members who see themselves as one step When I visit councils I get two stories. I am always removed from the authority. So I think there is a role told by members that “officers run this council” and I for both. am told by the same group of officers that “members run this council. This is a member-led authority”, so I Q48 Heidi Alexander: Do you think if councillors am often left wondering, “Well who is running it?” were paid more money you would attract more able There is an inherent conflict between the elected candidates? member and the full-time officer in local government Professor Copus: I think you would have to pay an and it comes about from the fact that the job and the awful lot more, depending, of course, on what you relationship between them is very different between mean by the term “able”. There are large, large the relationship that Members of Parliament will have numbers of very able councillors already in office. with their committee staff here and with researchers The question is: are they given the tools to be able to at the House of Commons. What you have in local do the job, and is the remuneration appropriate? I government are professional managers there to think the answer to both of those questions is provide and oversee a particular service. In many probably no. respects, officers could almost run their entire career Professor Thrasher: We asked candidates whether without coming that close to elected members. One they think that councillors are insufficiently paid and authority I was in the day after the last local elections, they disagreed. They reckon they are paid enough. I said to one particular officer, “What did you think of last night?” and I could see that they were racking Q49 Heidi Alexander: Oh right, okay. Liz, do you their brains to think what had happened last night— have any views on this issue? “Was there something good on television? What did I Liz Richardson: Only that the way that allowances miss?”—and it was the local elections. Often you get are structured does not seem to give the right signal that deep divergence. about the balance of work, in terms of sitting on At a certain level, however, members and officers external bodies and sitting on strategic work extremely closely and that is where you almost decision-making committees; possibly you are trying start to see the end scene of Animal Farm, where the to balance more things and it is more work, but it animals are looking through the window and they look is prioritised financially more than doing your basic from the farmers to the animals and they cannot quite bread-and-butter constituency ward work. That signal tell the difference. In some settings you can look for does not sit right with the community leadership a member and the officer and not quite tell the message for me. difference, because they are talking the same language. You only have to look at the pages of the Q50 Heidi Alexander: My final question is: do you local government press to see letters or articles written have any views on whether councillors are more by councillors; if I had a pound for every time I heard effective when they operate in single-member wards a member say, “Going forward”, I would be fairly or multi-member wards? Do you want to start? wealthy. I think there is a need to distinguish between Liz Richardson: No, I do not really have anything the roles. to add. Chair: We had better move forward now. Professor Copus: I overheard what Jane Roberts was saying earlier, and I share that conclusion. If there is Q47 Heidi Alexander: Professor Copus, I think in more than one member, there are opportunities to your written evidence you said that there are two share workloads and for members to specialise as well competing conceptualisations of councillors: the in particular aspects. It is often in three-member wards part-time lay councillor and the full-time professional you will find a member who is much more concerned councillor. Do you think that we need both types of about the policy side and you will find members who councillor for a healthy local democracy? are much more concerned about nursing the ward, so Professor Copus: I think the short answer is yes. They it does enable that workload to be shared somewhat. were deliberately extreme models in the submission I do not think voters are confused in any way; if they but they are models that I think there are examples of, need to find a councillor they can find them. There and there are strengths to having both those types of may be some confusion around the old adage of, “If members. Again it recognises the reality of the it is one person one vote, why have I got to vote three institutional arrangements we have at the moment: the times?” I have come across that, but I think the ability executive overview and scrutiny. Particularly in large to share the workload is crucial. authorities, it is a reasonable expectation for leaders, Professor Thrasher: The 1835 cabinet members to be full-time and there is a real Municipal Corporations Act established debate here that needs to be had, I think, about multi-member wards for the simple reason that the whether we move towards salaried councillors and radical utilitarians wanted annual elections to keep indeed, if we do move towards salaried councillors, people on their toes. The 1888 county councils act and how do we do that? What would be the level of the 1894 districts act established multi-member wards salary? How would you organise that? because they wanted whole council elections. The cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 15
2 July 2012 Professor Colin Copus, Liz Richardson and Professor Michael Thrasher
Victorians could not decide whether they wanted than in the metropolitan boroughs where they vote annual elections or three-yearly then, or four-yearly annually, which is different for parliamentary turnout, now. where it is the other way around. So there is strong I will answer your question from the other side, from evidence that whole council elections do encourage the voters’ point of view. Voters prefer elections every voter turnout. In terms of whether it works on the four years, and to get rid of the whole council or not. ground or not, I do not know. In terms of turnout, if it is a whole council election, Chair: Thank you all very much for coming and as in London, then they will vote in higher numbers giving your evidence.
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Councillor Peter Fleming, Chair, Improvement Board, Local Government Association, Tim Gilling, Acting Executive Director, Centre for Public Scrutiny, and Caroline Abrahams, Director of External Affairs, Age UK, gave evidence.
Q51 Chair: Good afternoon. Thank you all very from our councillors is everything from that very much for coming and for the evidence you have hyper-local representative all the way up to somebody submitted so far. We are running a little bit behind who is championing the whole place, the whole of the schedule, so I hope that does not inconvenience you council area or even, dare I say it, the region. at all, in terms of the time you have to get away. Okay, Caroline Abrahams: My answer would be that I think thank you very much. Just for the sake of our records, the most important thing councillors do is exercise could you say who you are and the organisation you good local political leadership. I think that is true represent? whether you are talking about a backbench councillor Tim Gilling: I am Tim Gilling. I am the Acting engaging with the issues in their ward and then taking Executive Director at the Centre for Public Scrutiny. action to try and progress those, or whether they are Peter Fleming: I am Peter Fleming. I am the Leader portfolio-holders with a huge span of responsibility at Sevenoaks District Council and I also chair the and responsible politically for the spending of vast Improvement Board at the Local Government sums of public money. I think in the end the exercise Association. is the same, and it is different from being an officer, Caroline Abrahams: I am Caroline Abrahams. I am to follow on from the discussion you were having with the Director of External Affairs at the charity, Age previous witnesses. UK. I used to work for LGA; I thought I should let you know that. It means that I cannot not know what Q53 David Heyes: Tim, in your evidence you I know from that experience as well. referred to the vital role of scrutiny. Some of my Chair: Yes, we have all declared our interest in local councillor colleagues—the backbench councillors government in the past, so thank you for that. who spend time on scrutiny—often say that is not a good use of their time. They want to be out in the Q52 David Heyes: Briefly, if each of you could say, community rather than sitting in endless scrutiny just to start us off, what you think is the most meetings and reading reams of briefing papers before important aspect of a councillor’s role. they start. Is that the best way for councillors to use Tim Gilling: It is difficult to come down on one their time? particular aspect that is the most important, because Tim Gilling: The situation, as you have described, of we expect councillors to fulfil a number of roles, councillors spending time in long meetings with large which span representative democracy and amounts of incomprehensible information does not participative democracy. So, on the one hand, we sound like the best way for councillors to add value. expect councillors to be elected to represent us or to So I suppose your question goes to the heart of how be representative of the place and we hold elections overview and scrutiny is carried out in councils, and over a given period, in one respect to judge how well there are a range of ways in which scrutiny can be councillors have performed that role. But I think carried out. It can be carried out along a model that increasingly, particularly in these more modern times mirrors the parliamentary select committee system. we expect councillors not only to interact with citizens There is a place for much more formalised work, of at election time but to interact with them throughout councillors sitting in a formal session with invited all of the work that they are doing in a much more witnesses, asking them questions and getting participative way. I would say it is difficult to pinpoint responses. There is also a perfectly valid role for one particular role that councillors play. councillors to be out in their communities, working Peter Fleming: I have to say I agree with Tim. It is perhaps in groups of two or three, going out to where spot on; it is a hugely complex world that we live in people are, talking to people in the shopping centre, now. Just to add on to the things that Tim said, we are in the market or at the school gate, and bringing the also expected to work with other parts of the public product of that work back into the process. sector and to bring lots of people together and There is a range of ways in which scrutiny can work convene services beyond those that were traditionally and all of them are valid. Some councillors will be local government. If you look at the changes that are very good in a formal session. They will ask incisive happening in health and other areas, our role has questions, they will listen to the answers and then they expanded rather than contracted and what we expect will follow them up. Some councillors may say cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Ev 16 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams nothing in a formal meeting, but be very good at is hard to be satisfied. So I think part of what that is talking to their neighbours and colleagues that they picking up is an issue around feedback, which is not work with. So I think there is a real cultural issue always done as consistently well as it could be. about how scrutiny works in authorities and it works differently in different places. Q57 Mark Pawsey: I want to ask one or two questions about community leadership. I am just Q54 David Heyes: I have some targeted questions wondering if you can comment on the role of the for each of you. The one for Peter is: democratic councillor with community leadership and, picking up legitimacy, low turnouts—does that make the Professor Thrasher’s point, does it matter that the legitimacy of councillors questionable? community is not the same as the ward? Peter Fleming: I am just going to pick up a little bit Peter Fleming: I thought there was a really interesting of the question that you— point made earlier, and it is about communities of David Heyes: That is cheating a bit, but we will interest. We have spoken in this Committee about allow it. communities of interest before, which go beyond ward Peter Fleming: I think scrutiny is a bit of a negative boundaries. If you take the age issue as well, older term and it has a lot of negative connotations. In the people are a community of interest, as are mothers best councils, their scrutiny is also doing other things, in Caffè Nero on a Tuesday morning, talking about such as targeted work. It is always a joy to listen to a issues that— bunch of academics. I was quite glad you overran, because I have to say my toes were curling at some Q58 Mark Pawsey: Sure, but is it the role of one of their views, because it does not play out on the councillor to pick up that particular interest, or should ground like they were saying. In reality, those there be a group of councillors who pick it up? If you backbench or frontline—we would struggle to find a define it geographically, then whether it is term—are out there shaping policy as well and doing single-member or multi-member, there is an allocated some of that really, really important work on whether area of responsibility. If it is mothers in Caffè Nero, the council is looking at all the options. They are not any councillor could lay claim to that. just looking at the history; they are looking at where Peter Fleming: Absolutely, and so they should. A the council goes in the future. I feel hugely supported councillor is elected to represent a geographic area, as a leader with the work that my scrutiny and policy and within that geographic area there will be many groups do, so I do not really see the world necessarily communities of interest that may spread beyond those the same way as other people do. ward boundaries. Whilst there are things that are very ward-focused and very ward-based, the reality is I do Q55 David Heyes: That is helpful, but how not know many members who would not help legitimate are you, given low turnouts? somebody, or a group of people, who straddle a ward Peter Fleming: We are a layer of representative boundary. You do not get into local government just democracy. The issue that we are going to struggle to look after a— with is, with localism and the devolving of powers, do we get to a point where the chairman of a residents’ Q59 Mark Pawsey: Right, but should there be a association, who has never stood for election, will geographically defined area, in the same way as have quite considerable potential powers? Voter Members of Parliament, for example, do not interfere turnout is an issue for all of us and I think not many in constituency matters arising in another area? You of you will have been elected on huge turnouts either. are saying that is not a problem as far as local councillors are concerned. What happens if it is Q56 David Heyes: Okay. My targeted question for different parties and the councillor of ward A of one you, Caroline, is about older people in your present party starts interfering in the matters of a councillor role. This survey you have done had a lot of stuff in ward B who is from a different party? about the high expectations that older people might Peter Fleming: Absolutely, but if you look at the roles have of councillors. Is that fair? From my experience, and responsibilities of councils, if you take an issue councillors spend an awful lot of time working for like planning, that is ward-focused and ward-based, so older people. a ward councillor, or multiple ward councillors, will Caroline Abrahams: That is brilliant, and when it is look after planning applications within their ward. done well it makes the most enormous difference. I think as older people get older, as it were, the upper Q60 Mark Pawsey: Unless he is on the planning age range, over-75s, have lower expectations. That is committee when he has a broader brief. what our survey found in terms of what was likely to Peter Fleming: Absolutely, but what I am saying is be achieved. I think that is partly because sometimes that we have multiple roles. It is a complex issue. If I perhaps councillors could put a bit more emphasis on go and speak to an older people’s group, they will not feeding back, as well as going off and doing some necessarily all come from my ward. Does that mean good things. I have no doubt that very often they do that I cannot legitimately speak to that older people’s take up issues and do do their best, but doing that bit group? Of course not. at the end, the feedback loop and making sure that older people know what has happened. Obviously it Q61 Mark Pawsey: Right. Any other comments? is true of other local constituents as well; it is not just Caroline Abrahams: I would just say I think that about older people, but if you do not know what has neighbourhood matters, so whatever arrangements are happened on the back of the issue you raised, then it in place locally for how responsibility is divided up cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 17
2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams amongst the group of councillors, I think it is really places, this concept of them having to live right in the important that there is a councillor who is very clearly heart of that community they represent does not say seen as representing the interests of people living in a that they are going to be either a good or a bad specific area. One of the things about older people is councillor. that they tend to be around their specific area rather I think communities are going to be empowered, but more than many of the rest of us, who go off in the I think there is still a massive role for councillors and, morning to go to work and come back again. My mum in fact, one that is increasing rather than decreasing. knows much more about what it is like around where we live than I do, frankly, because she is there much Q65 Mark Pawsey: Ms Abrahams, if the older more. I think it is also true of mums and dads with community does not engage with their councillor, is little children in Caffè Nero, who are also often more that a problem? around the localities. I think smart councillors Caroline Abrahams: I am not sure it is a problem for recognise that you need to talk to people, like the the older people. I think it might be a problem for the older people living in the area or, indeed, other people councillor, to be honest, but people will do what they who are there a lot, to find out what is going on in want to do, I think. They will vote where they think your patch, so that you can then represent them and they can make a difference. I suppose, too, if you have you are in touch with that. So I think it is a win-win. a good experience of your local councillor that makes Tim Gilling: I would say that community leadership you want to engage with them all the more. Equally, operates at a number of levels. At the basic ward level, if it has not been so good, then I think people will it is about knowing the needs of the people who live probably vote with their feet a bit. there, bringing people together to sort out problems, getting things done. At another level, at a corporate level, it is for all the councillors acting together to Q66 Simon Danczuk: The truth is, is it not, that have an understanding of the place in totality and councillors in a ward cannot get much done, can they, about setting an agenda, in consultation with people, if the cabinet member’s against them and if the about what that place might look and feel like. director of whatever services is not supporting them, they cannot make something happen in their ward. It Q62 Mark Pawsey: Okay. Are there any things that is very difficult to do that. Do we not need to devolve could be done to enhance that community leadership decisions down to the individual councillor in each role? What about the issue where there is a ward? What do you think, Tim? community that does not want to be led? Maybe they Tim Gilling: There is something interesting in the are quite happy to articulate their own vision and their nature of how decisions are taken in local government, own problems maybe in a neighbourhood plan, so if we are thinking about promoting particular without the input of the local councillor; is that a models of decision-making there are a range of problem? Should we empower the local councillor to options, of which that is one. From our perspective, as take control, or are you happy just to leave things as an organisation, we would like to see decision-making they are? framed around a set of principles and those principles Peter Fleming: They are being empowered by the are about being transparent, about being inclusive and legislation at the moment. The Localism Act starts to about being accountable. Devolving decisions down, empower local communities to do things that they in terms of giving councillors money to spend, can, as have not been able to do before. we have been hearing, help solve some really local issues. The risk, I suppose, is that there is a danger Q63 Mark Pawsey: That could be done without the that that spending becomes focused on one particular local councillor. community that a councillor is particularly Peter Fleming: I see that the role of the local sympathetic with. It is vitally important that, if we councillor is changing, and it has been changing over do have that model, it is transparent about what the history as well, but we are in probably an accelerated resources are, who is taking the decision and how period at the moment, where local councillors will people can influence what that decision is. That is the become much the convenors of place or their local same with a councillor making a decision in their neighbourhoods or their areas, and help bring some of ward as it is for the whole council taking decisions these things together. about budget strategy, or whatever it might be. There is certainly lots of evidence, not least from the Q64 Mark Pawsey: What about if the community low electoral turnout, that people are disconnected, does not want to be convened? That is the point I am perhaps, from the processes of decision-making. They making. What if they say the local councillor is not are not disconnected from the issues. They are very relevant? We had evidence about the proportion of passionate about the issues and the problems and councillors who do not even live in the ward they challenges they face in their lives. What they are represent, so why can that community not marginalise probably beginning to lack confidence in is the the councillor? political process through which they get things Peter Fleming: I think talking about whether the changed. So having something happening that is much councillor lives absolutely in the ward that they more local to them that they really feel they can own represent is a slight red herring, because you do not and have a stake in is probably a good thing, but there know that they do not live in the ward, like the other is a risk that that system works in a different way and side of the road or something like that. Especially in we need to mitigate against those risks, but that is not London, where the wards tend to be quite small in to say that it is not a good thing to try out. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Ev 18 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams
Peter Fleming: There are examples up and down the Q70 Bill Esterson: Can you tell us what the LGA is country of councils that do devolve both money and doing to encourage more people to stand for a council responsibility to ward councillor. and what success you have had? Peter Fleming: We run Be a Councillor, which is all Q67 Simon Danczuk: They will be the exception about finding people who are councillors from groups that are not well represented and putting them forward rather than the rule though, won’t they, Peter? as the face of Be a Councillor, which is a national Peter Fleming: I live in a two-tier area, and I know campaign supported by Parliament as well, to which that both the county members in my area and my we are really grateful. Again local government is a members have the opportunity to either have a budget complex mixture of places and outcomes in places. In that they can spend or bid for money to spend in their certain councils that we can all think of, not that far locality. I know that that is not unusual within local away from this place, we have hyper-ambitious government now, so I do not really think that that is younger councillors from certain political parties who where we are. are all on a trajectory to go somewhere else with their political careers, and in other places you have older Q68 Simon Danczuk: You do not think that we need people who have different experiences that they bring to devolve decision-making down to wards. to councils. Peter Fleming: I think it is difficult to prescribe that sort of thing from any national level of, “You must Q71 Bill Esterson: I can only assume you are talking devolve”. I think the Localism Act gives a lot of about Bob, as he is from a council. pointers as to where decision-making could be Peter Fleming: I am not talking about anybody devolved if there is an appetite from the local specifically. There is always more we can do, and I community, because that is the other part of it. Part of think the more important thing is about the one-term councillors and the support that we can offer people the role of councillors is, perhaps, going into the who, both at local council level and at the LGA level, future, to build some of that community we invest quite a lot of money, time and effort into empowerment to be able to take on some of those people. The thing that we really need to concentrate roles from the council, but I think we have to also on is not just “be a councillor” but “stay a councillor”. keep in mind that budgets are being squeezed. I think there is a danger that, on the one side, we are being Q72 Bill Esterson: We have talked with the other squeezed at the centre and then we are also trying to groups about independent councillors and about the devolve services to a very small area; as we know, it is three parties monopolising councillors; 93% of all quite often more expensive to deliver certain council councillors represent one of them. Does that bring a services at a very local level than it is to do it across different perspective? the whole county. Caroline Abrahams: I have not got any specific evidence on that but, interestingly, one of the Q69 Simon Danczuk: What do you think, Caroline? councillors who we have got a bit of evidence about, Caroline Abrahams: We certainly have quite a lot of who has been fantastic, commented at the end of his evidence of ward councillors making a real difference, remarks to us—and he is a borough councillor—that so from that point of view I would not want to suggest “politics does not come into our actions taken at this in any way that that cannot be an effective role; it level”. He was talking all about being a very very often is. That is on very bread-and-butter issues responsive and in-touch local ward councillor. For like wonky pavements, seats, toilet facilities and that him really it was not about the politics; it was about sort of thing, which are important for older people in what more he could do to help everybody in his area. their areas. I thoroughly applaud him for that, without being naive, of course, about the politics and the importance That, of course, is not to say that it could not also of that. work well in certain circumstances if the budget was devolved. I imagine if that happened, to follow on Q73 Bill Esterson: Tim, perhaps you can think about from what Peter was saying, that local councillors how you boost public understanding of local would then face quite difficult decisions being lobbied government, and whether that is a barrier to coming by the local mums—is it a play facility you want forward as a candidate. locally if there is any money going, or is it a seat to Tim Gilling: You heard some evidence earlier on that help older people who get a bit tired on the way to people do not seem to generally understand what local the shops? I think, again, that might be at least as government does, but then they do not generally seem much an issue for councillors in what is going to work to understand who plans and delivers health services best for them. I can see from their point of view there or any other particular aspect of public service, so can sometimes be advantages to the decision not being there is a disconnect from that point of view. quite so close to home, as it were, but I think it all I have never been a councillor, although I have lies in the skill of the councillor as a political operator. worked as an officer supporting democratic structures. The good ones that we saw certainly know how to get Councillors need to talk much more about what things done, contact the right people, know how the councils do. There is a risk that we begin to promote system works and are able to make a positive particular party-political agendas if we do not simply difference for the people living in their area, which confine ourselves to talking about what councils do is great. and the value that they add to people’s lives and the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 19
2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams difference that councillors could make to those suggestion and then he made it happen by getting over services if they were to stand. the scepticism initially of the care home staff and his I suppose for the constituency of councillors that we officers and driving it through. He is sensitive to the particularly represent—those who serve on overview issues for other older people because he is an older and scrutiny—where party politics can play an person himself, and he is happy to admit it. I just think element is if there is an element of whipping in it is a nice example of the kind of difference in a very overview and scrutiny committees. Our experience is natural, unpolitical kind of way that councillors can that it happens very rarely, and lots of councillors on sometimes make. scrutiny committees say to us that they leave their party-political hat at the door, because overview and Q75 Bill Esterson: Can I move on to money? This scrutiny is about being very constructive; it is about one is for you, Peter. In some places, councillors end being consensual; it is about examining the evidence; up on all sorts of outside bodies and end up earning— and it is about talking to the right people, so lots of I have come across councillors on six figures with all councillors report to us that whipping does not often the outside bodies that they are on. happen, although it does happen in some places, they Peter Fleming: It is not me. report. But our experience is that best practice, certainly in scrutiny, is that councillors do not operate Q76 Bill Esterson: Where is the LGA on allowances it in an oppositional, party-political way, but it is and, that example apart, would more money attract interesting that this goes to the heart of the culture of better candidates? the council, I guess. We run an annual survey of local Peter Fleming: I do not think it is necessarily helpful government scrutiny every year, so we try to test out to the work that you are doing at the moment, because how well councils and councillors feel scrutiny is of course a lot of this has been covered not that long working in their place. Some councils say, “Our ago with the Councillors Commission work. In saying scrutiny process is great because we have lots of that, I think for some people in some places, it may call-ins and we are challenging the executive”, and be a barrier. One of the ones that is regularly quoted some councils say to us, “Our scrutiny process is great are people on benefits, and the effect that getting an because we never have any call-ins. We are sorting allowance has on their benefits, and whether that is a out problems outside of the process of barrier to people on benefits standing as councillors decision-making.” It goes to the heart of the culture and representing potentially other people on benefits of the organisation, and the relationship between the at a council level. That is one end of the scale. political parties in any one place. Q77 Bill Esterson: Just to come back to the point Q74 Bill Esterson: Caroline, do you think that the about the six-figure councillor, there are councillors parties should look at the way they recruit? who quite like staying as councillors because of the Caroline Abrahams: It is interesting, because very money, and that is a barrier to other people and causes often in the debate around councillors and their all sorts of other problems. I do not know if you have representativeness, one of the issues that is often addressed that. picked up is the fact that many councillors are older Peter Fleming: Sorry, I was starting at one end of the people and there is a worry about how easy or how scale; I was going to work my way up. On my council, in-touch they are with younger groups within the I have quite a few younger councillors, but they all community. Of course, that is not a problem for have incredibly well paid jobs, so am I saying to Age UK, as it were, but I think the problem that does people, “If you want to take an executive position on arise is encouraging and supporting older people who my council, actually you are going to take a massive are councillors to think as older people themselves pay cut rather than a pay rise”? I think the examples and to be themselves as well as worrying hugely about of six figures are very, very rare. For the majority of what they are doing as councillors. councillors, the allowance just about, or just does not, I will just give you a very typical example of that: I covers the cost of them being a councillor. So I think met a delightful man last week who was a lead we need to be, perhaps, a little bit less Daily Mail member for adult services in a northern authority. He about the idea of loads of councillors on six figures. was saying he had visited a care home, and he had That is just not the case. In fact, if we are looking at been hugely struck by how much difference it was it, I think in certain areas councillors’ allowances are making to older people with dementia to have a a barrier to people coming in, mostly because they memory board, which was a board with all kinds of will be worse off than they are either on benefits or old objects from the thirties and forties. For example, in work. he talked about one woman who had seen this—she Tim Gilling: There are two things from me on this. had not said anything—but seeing this had got her One is that the level of allowances really speak to the talking and it was all wonderful. Then he was talking esteem with which we hold the office of councillor. I to the care home staff and what they were telling him think we do, as a society, need to value the role of the was that it cost them £80 to hire this from some councillor, and the level of allowance that councillors specialist organisation that provides these things for get in a particular place does, to some extent, reflect drama companies and TV and things. He remembered the value that we put on the role. that there was a little local museum in his area that The second point on allowances in terms of the had some of these things and so he has joined it up. difference between a cabinet member or an executive He is hugely committed to the issue, and he has been member and somebody who might be chairing or intelligent and sensible; he has made a concrete serving on a scrutiny committee is one around parity cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Ev 20 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams of esteem. Again, it is an opportunity, I think, for committees are able to use to go out and do interesting councils to say, “We do value the role of overview work, and get people to come and talk to them, has and scrutiny as much as the role of an executive gone down, possibly at the very moment when the councillor”, and in some councils there is a marked maturity of the scrutiny function, if I can put it like difference between what the allowance is, or the that, is reaching quite a high level. I suppose to some remuneration that an executive councillor gets, and extent that reflects what Peter was just saying about something that a scrutiny committee chair or chairman all budgets being under pressure. I guess there is a might get. The figure that we set on allowance can risk in councils that, when you are looking to cut say something about the extent to which we value resources, with anything that is funding accountability what those people do. or scrutiny, and is not a frontline service, there is a temptation to look to make a disproportionate cut Q78 Heidi Alexander: Councillor Fleming, I think there. However, I would say there has never been a you said earlier about the changing role of councillors, more important time for councillors to be supported perhaps, with some of the changes that come along in terms of understanding how the pattern of services with the Localism Act. Do you think that the training are changing, understanding the best questions they and support that is provided to councillors needs to can ask about what impact that will have on people change to keep pace with that changing environment? who live in their place, and then understanding what Peter Fleming: One of the things that slightly to do with the information that you have gathered. annoyed me about the previous session was when they There is a range of skills that councillors need these said there is one person in democratic or member days, very much around analysing data. There is lots services. It is ridiculous, and even the smallest of data. How do you handle data? How do you councils tend to have a number of people who are understand it? How do you interpret it? How do you there to support the role of councillor. Lots of councils then go out and test it? How do you go out and do very good induction and training, which is updated perhaps listen to people that Caroline represents, in so that members are constantly getting a flow of new terms of listening to peoples’ stories? There is a range information, whether it is on planning, the NPPF, or of skills, some of which will be manifest in a more on the Localism Bill. They make sure that their formal scrutiny environment, but very many are the members are absolutely up-to-date, because they are softer ones that councillors will use outside. decision-makers and they have to make decisions Scrutiny support is needed absolutely, and of course within the confines of the law as it stands or will we will provide a range of support, which is partly stand. I think councils do a lot work, and within the funded by the Local Government Association, to LGA obviously we have a clear set of training councillors, but we do other things, and resources are opportunities for members that we will deliver to very much under pressure at the moment. councils and groups of councillors in their own authorities, or schemes to further councillors’ ability, Q82 Heidi Alexander: Caroline, have you any so that they can take more leadership roles either thoughts on that area in relation to older people, and within their councils or in a more national role. engaging with older people, and the particular skills that councillors need? Q79 Heidi Alexander: Has the LGA done any Caroline Abrahams: From what we have seen from research about member development budgets and the the older people we have talked to, it is people who extent to which they have been protected in the last treat them with respect, who talk to them, who are couple of years, given the financial pressures that approachable, who have taken the time and authorities are under? understand that you need to publicise how to get in Peter Fleming: I do not know that, but I can get you touch with them. That is perhaps easier in some that. smaller settings than in busy cities, but an example here is of somebody explaining how councillors hold Q80 Heidi Alexander: What is your sense? a surgery once a month in the local library, their Peter Fleming: All budgets are under pressure, so I contact details are on the noticeboard outside the would not take a reduction in member development parish office and published in the parish newsletter budgets as saying that they have been singled out for every quarter. As well as that very basic but quite reduction. All budgets are under enormous pressure important stuff, it is also people who understand a bit and you need to see it in the context of a 28% about what is around locally and so do know that there reduction in government grant. is an elder forum to go along to and talk to people at, or who are actively engaged with local community Q81 Heidi Alexander: Tim, do you think councillors groups. It is about how to be a good councillor as are supported and properly trained in the scrutiny much as anything. I bet it pays off too, in terms of functions that they have to fulfil? Do they get the votes when it comes to election time. It really makes support for that part of the role? a difference and people do appreciate it. Tim Gilling: In some places undoubtedly they get excellent support. I have been privileged to work for a Q83 Chair: One final question to each of you; to council where there was a very dedicated policy team begin with, Tim. There is a suspicion, isn’t there, at supporting a range of scrutiny committees. If I reflect least in some councils, that the scrutiny committees on the national picture, another finding of the national are just there to try and find backbench councillors research that we do shows that over the last few years something to do now all the powers have been certainly the discretionary budgets that scrutiny transferred off to the cabinet? Is that really the case cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 21
2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams or have you got examples where the scrutiny to talk to local older people, but also to monitor the committees and backbench councillors actually have situation for themselves. They put those two things some real impact and influence over the strategic together and used that as a means of actually holding direction of the authority? the council to account, and indeed other people where Tim Gilling: I do. Undoubtedly, there will be some that was relevant. What is impressive about that, I councils where the culture is that backbenchers are think from my point of view, is that is clearly a doing something else over here. But we have a lot of councillor who has a bit of a strategic grip of how you examples, principally through our own Good Scrutiny go about being really effective, has planned the use of Awards, which are now in their fifth year, where we their time, knows there is something coming up that look particularly for good examples. Reflecting on they need to be ready for and has actually planned all some recent experience of those, in Gloucestershire the work that they need to do. Part of that has been the council ran a one day scrutiny commission on the talking to local older people as well as making up Environment Agency’s flood strategy for the Severn their own minds about the issues. Estuary. This strategy had caused lots of residents and businesses over a very wide area a lot of difficulty. Q85 Bob Blackman: Peter, you have been a They were finding it difficult to engage with the councillor for quite a time—13 years I think. I do not Environment Agency so the councillors at know about the structure of your council or others, Gloucestershire took responsibility for that; they but how would you answer the criticism that would brought people together. That has resulted in the go: council meetings do not make decisions; they are Environment Agency not only reviewing the way it is a bit irrelevant; the public and press do not turn up; handling its Severn Estuary duties, but they are also there are no committees so the press do not participate saying that this new model of consultation they have in that; the cabinet or the executive make all the adopted in the Southwest is going to be one they will decisions—actually the decisions are made before now use nationally. That is an example of some local they even get into the meeting, so what is the point in councillors dealing with an issue over a wider area, the press and public arriving?—turnout at local as Peter was describing, affecting the strategy of a elections goes down; and interest goes down. Should national agency. there be an alternative structure, and if so, what should Bradford Council recently ran a very inclusive it be? scrutiny review and developed a food strategy for the Peter Fleming: There are lots of layers in that. The city of Bradford, which is about encouraging local first thing is, in my own council we have pre-cabinet communities to become much more active in growing scrutiny; every cabinet paper goes to a scrutiny and supplying their own food, so people have much committee first. I have the minutes of their meetings. better access to cheap local food supplies. In Cardiff, If they do not like a decision I am just about to make, they carried out a scrutiny of the night-time economy or have some ideas or views, we can take those on and the way in which activities that fund it were board prior. perceived, and tested out its value to the city. That really affected the way that the council now views and Q86 Bob Blackman: That is fine, because that is the handles what happens in Cardiff city centre at night. councillors presumably scrutinising it. But if I am a So there are some examples there, and we have many member of the public thinking about a decision that more that I can supply. your council is going to take, or a member of the press Chair: That is very helpful, thank you. inquiring, what happens there? Tim Gilling: But absolutely at the heart of the culture Peter Fleming: We have seen this across all politics: of the council should be a view that says, ‘Scrutiny people do not follow politics in its broadest sense can add significant value to the work of the anymore, but they do follow the things that interest executive’. It is not all just about waiting until the them hugely. We are looking at local maternity executive has done something and then telling them it services at the moment. There are a group of people has gone wrong. Lots of councillors tell us that some who really care about local maternity services and will of the best and most satisfying work they do is about turn up to meetings, and the press will take an interest. contributing to policy development. We are working with Mumsnet to make sure that we pick up as many people as we possibly can. Q84 Chair: Caroline, just to pick up from a service- user point of view, councillors can be very, very good Q87 Bob Blackman: That is you exercising your at engaging with service users in their roles as ward scrutiny role over the health service. That is not a councillors. When it comes to scrutiny, they think that decision that the council is taking. their sole job is to actually interrogate council officers Peter Fleming: No, it’s not. It is about helping the at the occasional hearing, and do not see a need to health service in making their decisions. I think we actually engage with service users to get their need to stop necessarily thinking about the scrutiny perspective on things. Is that your experience or have role as something that happens after the event. That’s you got some good examples where councils have not where we are anymore. The majority of councils been engaging very well with older people? have realised that looking at something after it has Caroline Abrahams: I haven’t got any evidence happened is not the way ahead. Most scrutiny in local particularly in the context of scrutiny. I have to be government now actually looks at stuff before it honest about that. What I certainly have got is happens and helps shape. They do that by talking to evidence of people saying what was good about their local people and local groups, by bringing their local councillor was the fact they took the time both experience from their ward-level work to those cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:47] Job: 023547 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o001_db_120702 HC 432-i Councillors Corrected transcript.xml
Ev 22 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
2 July 2012 Councillor Peter Fleming, Tim Gilling and Caroline Abrahams meetings, and helping drive that policy of the council really cares about an issue in their area, they will soon forward. The most forward-thinking councils and find out the person who is their local councillor, even executives within councils take that and move it if they have not been involved or interested in local forward. governance before that point. Tim Gilling: Very quickly on that point, this is about Q88 Bob Blackman: If I am a normal resident of transparency. Organisations, whatever they are doing, your area and I don’t know anything about the and councils in particular, have to be very transparent decision-making structure or whatever, how would I about who takes decisions, when and how they take influence the decision-making structure to get what I them, and how you can get involved with them. The think I want for me and my local people? I am not a Local Government Act 2000 envisaged a snappy little councillor; I don’t even know who my councillor is. document called the Forward Plan that would help What do I do? with some of that. I am not sure that it has particularly Peter Fleming: I would be disappointed that you helped in very many places. The point I want to make would not know who your local councillor is. on transparency is that we should not restrict transparency to publishing historic spending Q89 Bob Blackman: I would challenge the vast information; we need to be much more transparent majority of councillors in this country that they are about the culture and how decision-making is actually well known in their area. It is just one of those things carried out. that happens because of the sheer volume of people they represent. Q90 Chair: One final point—a bit tongue in cheek Peter Fleming: I would say when you have an issue maybe. How frustrating for councillors is it when they of vital importance to you, whether it is new parking have done all this work on the ground, really engaged restrictions, a planning application at the end of your with their communities, there is a bit of publicity to road or something else, you soon find out who your be had and they are on the front-page of the local local councillor is. Most people are disengaged with paper, and on the television news there is the local all politics until it matters to them. MP with a letter to the Minister using their particular Bob Blackman: Absolutely, I agree. access to gain all the publicity for the good work Peter Fleming: That is the reality. What is important done? for local government is to make sure that, when that Peter Fleming: Obviously I have a great relationship person does engage because there is an issue of with my local MP. There is an inbuilt tension there. importance to them, there is an easy access to their Actually, the biggest inbuilt tension is the fact that local councillor, and their local councillor knows how some MPs think all that councillors are are people to make things happen or at least point the person in potentially after their jobs. the right direction. One of the issues that Tim sort of touched on is an issue in my area where you have Q91 Bill Esterson: Name them. three levels of local governance: you have a county, a Peter Fleming: I couldn’t possibly name them. district and a parish. I spend quite a bit of my time Chair: Too many. signposting people, although as soon as you begin to Peter Fleming: Once you put their minds at rest that understand how county councils work—and they are you are not actually interested in coming to this place, a whole world amongst themselves—you can actually I think the relationship soon gets better. get in touch with officers yourself and help that Chair: On that note, thank you very much indeed for individual, so they do not need to see that there are coming in and giving us evidence. Thank you. different layers. The reality is that when somebody cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 23
Monday 9 July 2012
Members present: Mr Clive Betts (Chair)
Bob Blackman Bill Esterson Simon Danczuk ______
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Councillor Paul Watson, Leader, Councillor Celia Gofton, Portfolio Holder, Responsive Services and Customer Care, and Dr Dave Smith, Chief Executive, Sunderland City Council, gave evidence.
Q92 Chair: Good morning. We are members of the entailed changing the way we worked from a back House of Commons Select Committee on office point of view to give us better and more Communities and Local Government. This is the effective access to the council and its services and second session of evidence in our inquiry into how they were deployed, and in particular the councillors and the community. Could I begin by responsiveness to people in the community. The thanking Sunderland City Council for hosting the community leadership programme endeavoured to event and the arrangements it has made for us? That make councillors the focus for action and leaders in is very much appreciated. Pass on our thanks to their communities. That gave communities the feeling everyone who has been involved. A full transcript of that, where there was a problem, there was a solution the evidence we take today, which is being recorded, in the councillor. will be available on the Committee’s website within a People were phoning the council for this, that and the week. I am sure that it will be very useful for us to other—they still do, and rightly so—but often draw on it for the report we eventually produce. At bypassed the councillor in their role in solving the beginning, could I ask the first three witnesses to problems in the community, i.e. in being at the front say who they are and the organisation they represent? line in pulling together local multi-agency, problem- That would be a good start to make. solving panels—the police, health, local social Paul Watson: My name is Councillor Paul Watson landlords, and people like that—to focus on and try to and I am leader of Sunderland City Council. resolve issues at a local level. Part of that was about Celia Gofton: My name is Councillor Celia Gofton. I trying to enable people to understand that they could am, first and foremost, councillor for Pallion ward in be effective in changing the way they live and things the city and have portfolio responsibility for that mattered to them in the local environment, and responsive services and customer care within the that the councillor had a view and had a pertinent role council. to play in that. We needed to make sure that the back Dr Smith: I am Dave Smith, chief executive of the office was responsive to that, so we created area city council. response managers. Councillor Gofton, who was very much involved in that issue, will be better able to tell Q93 Chair: I almost welcomed you to your own you about that. council chamber, but thank you for making this Celia Gofton: If you ask any councillor, possibly any available to us. It is good to get out of London and MP, what their constituents bring forward as issues, in have sessions in the community, because that is what many instances, not exclusively, after the economy it councillors are all about; indeed, that is the first issue is about the immediate environment where they live. I would like to raise with you. In evidence to us you When we looked at that—not that we did not know have explained something about your community leadership programme, which seems to be of before—it became clear, adopting the focus particular interest. Could you tell us a little about it Councillor Watson explained, that we had control over and how much progress you have made on it so far? lots of issues being brought forward and that we could Paul Watson: The community leadership programme change quite quickly. We brought them together into is part and parcel of the Sunderland Way of Working. a group of what we called local services and focused A few years ago, possibly in 2008–09, we looked at on responsive local services. the position we were in going forward with the We tried to walk before we could run, but almost economic constraints of the world and the country, immediately it was welcomed with open arms by both and particularly in relation to apathy shown by the councillors and by residents. Having had the turnout at elections and things like that. We decided reorganisation Councillor Watson has just described, to have a look at things to see how we might turn that by officers newly appointed to these roles, we just round in Sunderland. simply changed things round. If you had had a There were three or four facets to the Sunderland Way problem of graffiti, it might have taken a couple of of Working to change the politics and the way we days for that to be resolved. We have had cases where were thought of in the public’s mind. The community we have engaged people on the phone and they have leadership programme was part of that. It focused on come to remove the graffiti as we are talking to them. the relationship among the council, councillors and I do not suggest that it is rocket science, but when you locally elected leaders. It was about enabling us to be sit in your surgeries, just as when we sit in our pertinent to and relevant in the community. That surgeries, you know that, beyond someone’s personal cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Ev 24 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Celia Gofton and Dr Dave Smith health and the economy, it is the immediate The interesting issue for us is that, through this environmental problems that create issues for them. programme, trust and satisfaction with the council We expanded the group of topics that we took up. have now reached the same levels as for the individual We really had no choice, because fellow councillors services the council provides. People are now able to wanted that to be the case. It was so successful that make a direct association between the services they the imperative to expand was there before the ink was are receiving and the council’s responsibility to dry on the paper. We have now included parks and so provide those services and the role of the elected on. We used that model when we made the changes members at local level to mediate between individual to area committees, which I think you are to discuss or community needs and the council’s ability to later, but in general that was the imperative behind respond to those needs. The council is now seen as responsive local services, putting the councillor, who being more timely and relevant in providing a was able to do something immediately about what qualitatively better approach to its communities than happened in their area and ward, right at the front of it was three years ago. things, rather than someone ringing the council From my perspective—this is linked to Councillor office—not that it is a terrible thing—and having an Gofton’s point and is in part an answer to your officer contact them and, in many ways, literally question—ultimately the difference between what we bypassing the local councillor. Therefore, it gives the have done in the last three years and what we would councillor a central role in everything that happens. have traditionally done before is that we have not sought to tackle the problem as a systems issue. Q94 Chair: Before Dr Smith comes in as well, there Although we have done systems changes, first and are two points. First, have councillors generally foremost we reckoned this was about setting responded positively to this? Some people have been relationships: between elected members and their on the council for quite a long time and maybe do not local communities, and between communities and want to change the way they work. They think they elected members and the council as an entity. If we have done a good job and it is all okay. Why should sorted out those relationships, we had the opportunity they adopt all these new-fangled ways of operating? to build the sort of trust and interaction between them Secondly, have you done any surveys of the public to that would make a difference. The governance and find out whether they feel they are getting a better systems changes we have introduced followed on deal out of their councillors because of this? from breaking into that territory and building a set of Celia Gofton: Indeed we have. Probably the chief relationships that made a difference to people’s lives. executive will want to talk about the response of the That was the key to our success. public. All I can say from the point of view of cabinet responsibility is that we are pressed and pressed by Q95 Simon Danczuk: The community leadership our members to expand what we do. You can see from programme sounds fantastic in terms of what has been the satisfaction survey that, in terms of the officer/ done. Does this mean that you are spending more on councillor relationship, it is in the 90s. You can tell councillor support? Has it increased the budget? from that that the imperative is to continue and do Dr Smith: We are spending proportionately less more because this has been so successful. I would not money overall, but what we have done is redirect deny that it is in its early stages; we are just a few resources to the front line. Part of the change we have years into this. There are big plans ahead to expand introduced is essentially to take about 30% out of our it, but, of all the statistics you will hear, the big one back-office costs. Some of that money has gone as is that way over 90% of fellow councillors are very direct savings, but other elements have gone into happy with the internal service they receive. A lot of front-line services better to support elected members that, not exclusively, is to do with the community in their community leadership role and to improve the leadership programme. In terms of residents, I pass direct delivery of services. If you take graffiti services, you over to the chief executive. which is one of the responsive local services, overall Dr Smith: Sunderland Council has had a good quality the council is spending less money on its Streetscene of services over a number of years. That has been services, but it is delivering the services far quicker. recognised year in year out in the annual surveys we The high priority graffiti removal service has reduced do of our residents. The challenge for us over the past in time from three days to three hours. For us, the three years has been, how can we sustain and improve essence was to redirect those resources in a way that on that quality of service while reducing our cost made a difference, while making the savings in money base? The short answer to your question is that we that this council, like every other, has had to make have improved customer satisfaction from already over the last few years. high levels of satisfaction prior to this programme. Going back three years, while the residents of Q96 Simon Danczuk: Because we are looking at Sunderland judged the individual services of the councillors and the role they play, one particularly council generally very highly, they did not associate interesting issue is how they are received by council that quality of service with the council itself. officers. Have you done anything in terms of getting Therefore, the services were rated highly, the council council officers to understand the important role was not. Nationally, this was a pretty common picture councillors perform? among councils across the country. Trust and Paul Watson: There are now many more occasions satisfaction with the council were much lower than when councillors and council officers get together and with the individual services that the council happened discuss things. We have got things like area to provide. walkabouts, where the local response manager takes cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 25
9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Celia Gofton and Dr Dave Smith ownership of the problems in the area, if you like. and articulate the unique roles that officers, members They are full-time employees, whereas councillors and council play within the city. That was important sometimes have jobs, businesses and things like that. to build confidence both among the officer corps and It means that ownership of the problem is invested in members that change was going to enhance those an officer who is plugged into the council’s way of unique defined contributions, and it was seen as working, possibly has a better understanding than contributing a positive development rather than being individual councillors, and knows, almost by the a threat. That process has been going on in practical nature of the job, where to make contact with the steps, as the leader said, as well as in constant relevant people in which department for the particular dialogue, not just from the leader and me but also problem. We work together and have more contact, the cabinet and senior officer team working together, but we also have more informal contact. That makes demonstrating to the rest of the organisation how that it much, much better. benefits all of us in terms of better services and a Devolving things to the area committee, which these better council. people report to and where issues can be brought up, also makes ownership of the problems more local, Q97 Bill Esterson: Councillor Watson, on the rather than people phoning in to a pretty impersonal efficiency of this approach, you were making the point and remote contact centre to report a street light out. that it was no longer contact between the resident and They can contact the local councillor, who can contact the call centre; now councillors are involved. As to a local response manager who is someone they know. the financial effectiveness of it, have you found it is That also helps to address the problem much more saving money or costing more money? Is it difficult quickly and effectively. to say, or is that not really the point anyway because There has always been a desire and ability to work it is about democratic involvement? closely; it has just never had the structure behind it. Paul Watson: I can see how you would say, “Look, The call comes in from the contact centre and the there’s another layer in the middle now.” It works the officer tries to deal with it as efficiently and other way. I am absolutely certain that in a second effectively as possible. That might mean just making Dave and Celia will tell you exactly how it works and a phone call to whoever puts in the new bulb and that give you the figures for it. You can imagine the is it; it is done and finished. But there is a whole issue problem is seated in that community and has to be behind that about how we connect that action with the taken up from the community to the call centre, or idea of democracy and having local representatives: by whatever means the person chooses to contact the “Is it worth going out to elect them? I do not need to, council. It is then put into our processes to come up because I just phone up the contact centre and it with a solution, and the councillor, various cabinets happens anyway.” There is a whole area beneath that and the area committees are involved. Where the seat that makes it happen. I believe that bringing in the of the problem is, whatever the issue might be, can behind-the-scenes part of the service and making it quite often be resolved locally, and so could pertinent to the whole experience of dealing with the everything else. council invigorates them to take part and think it is worth voting for someone and having contact with that person. “They have done something for me; they Q98 Bill Esterson: That is because of the local have fixed my street light,” whereas before we were knowledge of the elected members. one, two or three steps removed. Paul Watson: Absolutely. With that interaction, Celia Gofton: From my perspective, the way of people see it and have trust in their local person on judging whether or not that relationship has improved the ground. If you have to say to them, “I’m sorry, but is by looking at the member satisfaction survey. You we can’t stop the kids playing football on that field; will be able to see that far more of our members than that’s what the field is for,” rather than going through national or regional members believe that the council reams of protests and petitions, quite often people is committed to this programme. That is quite a big understand that you are looking for the best solution turnaround. Our survey shows that we now have 87% for the community, and there has to be a different member satisfaction with that interaction, compared amenity for different users and people. Once you gain with a low base prior to that. That is roughly over the their trust, they have better acceptance of some of the same time. While the journey will not be perfectly decisions. Although outwardly it might look as though mapped because things shift and change over a period we are putting in another layer, quite often we take of time, I think it is best described by that level of other layers out. I am sure the chief executive can say satisfaction. more about that and give you the figures. Dr Smith: To complete the picture, as well as the Dr Smith: By way of illustration, the council in the practical measures we have taken, I want the last three years has saved £100 million without any Committee to understand that the journey the council significant reduction in service delivery. I think we are has started on will continue. It started by the leader now the only council in England that provides adult and me setting out to the whole council, both social care across all four FACS bands. We still members and officers, that it was about partnership. provide for all levels of need within our community. At the beginning, it was about our partnership in We are not a high spender; we are a middle-of-the- leading the organisation and supporting the city’s range spender on social care. We have sustained that development. It was leading by example, and level of service and saved £100 million. In essence, supporting that by a programme of activity that both we have achieved it by saying we are going to the leader and I have been involved in to demonstrate improve services and, through the service cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Ev 26 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Celia Gofton and Dr Dave Smith improvement, save money, and we have delivered on committee decides something that is totally contrary that. to what the cabinet and you as leader want to see happen? Q99 Bob Blackman: I can see that you are itching Paul Watson: They will, hopefully, have the to get in on particular issues, but we are a bit short of commonsense not to do that. As Celia says, it is quite time. What we want to do is look now at the right that legally and constitutionally the only devolution arrangements. Can you just explain the committees of the council that we devolve executive difference in Sunderland’s terms between an area powers to are the area committees. They produce a committee and an area board? plan put by all of us, and there is a requirement for Celia Gofton: I have asked people to think about an that plan to be absolutely in tune with the city plan, area committee as a mini-council for their area. We the economic master plan and community have five parts of the city, of which you will be aware, development plan. Therefore, their plan locally is in based on regeneration areas in the past. We bring tune with that. Their actions and the way they spend together in an area committee all councillors and their devolved budgets and develop their policy partners and hold a public council meeting, very like a mini-council. When I first came into this role that locally need to be in tune with that as well. If anything was how I had to view it to begin to understand it. was absolutely contrary to it, we would have to make As you will be fully aware, in any council or very a decision about that, possibly at full council. It has formalised process where partners and the public are never happened. Obviously, it is early days yet and it involved, to make that also a working group is would need to work its way through, but, by and large, virtually impossible. You cannot do it; you sit here where in the past we have found things like that because that is not possible within Parliament. In the happen, somebody has had a very strong interest in a same way, when we have what is effectively a mini- particular topic and maybe has pushed it to the council for an area, we have needed to capitalise on detriment of the wider council. There are ways and the momentum building up with the community means. We talk it through with the political parties leadership programme and responsive services and and get agreement that we need to curtail some action gather all of that energy into something that would do that is not conducive to the best interests of the city the job of delivering outcomes. or council. The area committee is the sovereign part We sat with key officers within the council, the leader of that and it will make the decision. If anybody below and chief executive and decided that the thing to do that is trying to go in a contrary direction, it always would be to create a board, if you like. At first, we comes down to the majority vote. were thinking of a single board that would, outside an area committee, be a workhorse to deliver the area Q102 Bob Blackman: Dr Smith, what about the committee’s priorities. The area committee would oversight of how the money is spent, making sure that always be sovereign, if you like. They would set their priorities and have collectively an all-party councillors do not decide, “I’m up for election this understanding of what their area needed, but in order year. I’m going to push the money to this particular to deliver those priorities we needed a workhorse. area, and it will be a quid pro quo: they’ll want to Events very quickly overtook us and we called it a vote for me because I pushed the money there.”? How place board, and it became very clear that we needed do you govern this area? a people board as well. What is more difficult with Dr Smith: We have strong officer support to each of a community leadership programme, believe me, is the area committees as well as central oversight of the keeping a rein on it, because there is such enthusiasm budgetary arrangements. The balance to be achieved behind it. is to have strong oversight in the sense of understanding what has happened, but not to throttle Q100 Bob Blackman: When it comes to decision the initiative either. In the context of the services that making, is it the councillors within that area or the we are devolving, these are services that we consider local people who make the decisions? How does that are appropriate for local decision making. decision-making process work? Celia Gofton: The area committee has the decision- Q103 Bob Blackman: When it comes to a decision making power. It is a full committee of the council about spending money on a particular project, is it an and as such it has that devolved power. The boards officer who signs off on it and says, “This is the right make recommendations. The boards and area thing to do. I am quite happy that it is a good use of committees work in partnership with the voluntary and community sector in their areas and with partners public money.”? who have a direct responsibility for the things that go Dr Smith: An officer will sign that the money is on in their areas: the big partners like the police, available and within the delegated budgets that are health, etc, and also smaller partners. That might be available to the area committee, so area committees particularly specific to that area. It is through that can make differential decisions. In one particular area system that decisions are made. Priorities are reached a committee may prioritise X rather than Y; in another and decisions made. one, it may be A rather than B, and that is perfectly proper. It is not for an officer to determine those Q101 Bob Blackman: Paul, you have a leader priorities, but it is for an officer to say that the cabinet model, and now you have these area available resources are there for the area committee to committees and boards. What happens if the area make that decision. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 27
9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Celia Gofton and Dr Dave Smith
Q104 Bill Esterson: Dr Smith, how do you promote working with all members of the council, whether or the benefits of being a councillor? Is that something not they are in a majority group. the council itself does or is involved in? Dr Smith: We certainly are involved in that. We seek Q107 Bill Esterson: Moving to the whole panel, the through all the media available to us, including our absence of minority councillors is something that the own media, to help communities understand that inquiry is looking at. Do you think that is a problem benefit. It is partly to do with the way we run in this council, or not? elections. It is not really to do with the election itself; Paul Watson: I do not know that I would describe it it is to do with ensuring that the community as a problem. If you try to determine, looking at the understands the importance of locally elected basic tenets of democracy, what this council’s make- members, and the fact people stand for election and up should be, you may well assume that it should be perform that role is an important part of that process. reflective of the community it serves. In some ways, that is a cogent argument. However, I believe the true Q105 Bill Esterson: Is there more that you could do? tenet of democracy is that the make-up of this council Dr Smith: There is always more we could do. The should be who the community wishes to elect and it reality is that we want to match the experience with may not reflect that. Maybe lots of men vote for the promotion so that communities and individuals see women and lots of women vote for men. At the end the marketing of the role and that it is fulfilled in a of the day, the community will get the people it votes way that matches the promotional side. We try to take for, and I believe it is dangerous to tamper with those these things in tandem so that, as we press forward basic tenets. and people engage, their experience of engagement is However, there is an issue in ensuring people are a positive one and their expectations are met. engaged with democracy and understand why it is important to be involved. If it was working better Q106 Bill Esterson: Most elected councillors across outside, we would have a greater diversity of people England are members of the three main political in the council chamber, so we are absolutely not doing parties. You have three independents. Do you think enough to empower people who are not represented that independent councillors bring a different to become represented. It is not only, as the chief perspective to the role of a councillor? executive has been talking about, the machinery that Dr Smith: All members of the council bring a gets people into the democratic process and to become particular perspective; it is not just a party-political elected members; there is also the need to issue for me. The way they behave and interact with understand—it is probably wrong to describe it as a their communities and with officers is different, barrier—how to join and become involved in political because we are all individuals. In that sense the parties. The two main parties in our case produce over contribution is unique to the individual irrespective of 90% of the elected members, so it is a matter of party considerations. One of the challenges for us and ensuring that the informal process of politics that the community leadership programme is to ensure that exists outside on the ground is understood, and people all members of the council feel enabled to work with are allowed to join in and become part of that. all officers to fulfil their local responsibilities. As Chair: Thank you all very much indeed for coming officers it is a constant challenge to us to build that to give evidence. I think we will be seeing you later level of trust and communication and effective on today anyway.
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Councillor Robert Oliver, Conservative Group Leader, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Leader of Independent Councillors, Councillor David Tate, Chair of the Scrutiny Committee, Councillor Dianne Snowdon, Area Vice-Chair, Washington Area and Labour Group Secretary, and Councillor Michael Mordey, Policy Member, City Services, Sunderland City Council, gave evidence.
Q108 Chair: Welcome to our session and thank you mind. Because of the new arrangements, I am for coming to give evidence to us. At the beginning, chairman of the only scrutiny committee, so I have for the sake of our records could you say who you are been involved in scrutiny probably since its inception. and your role as well? That is really my role in the council. I am from the David Tate: I am Councillor David Tate. I have been Coalfield area and only joined in the days of the on the council for over 30 years. Don’t take any notice metropolitan. We came into Sunderland in 1974. Prior of the hair. I have been there a long time. I did not to that we were in Durham County Council, so it was wear glasses when I knew you, Clive. I used to be a big change to move from the sleepy old town—I vice-chairman of AMA Highways. Those years have should not really say that—into the big thriving gone, and I wish they were back. I sat through metropolis. I am a councillor for Hetton ward. Parliament and watched the dissolution at the time Robert Oliver: I am Councillor Robert Oliver, with a Sligoman, Councillor John Donnelly, if you councillor for St Chad’s ward. I am currently the remember, who used to be chairman of housing. I Conservative group leader. have known you for a long time. Like you, I have Colin Wakefield: I am Councillor Colin Wakefield. I changed quite a bit. I did not wear glasses then and I cover Copt Hill ward, and I am leader of the had a bit more hair, and I looked young, but never independent group. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Ev 28 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
9 July 2012 Councillor Robert Oliver, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Councillor David Tate, Councillor Dianne Snowdon and Councillor Michael Mordey
Dianne Snowdon: I am Councillor Dianne Snowdon. needed to talk to about a certain issue. That has been I am councillor for Washington Central ward, and I very good in the way the council has clarified exactly am vice-chair of Washington area committee. who does what, and what the points of contact are. It Michael Mordey: I am Councillor Mike Mordey, has been especially helpful to have one person in each councillor for Hendon ward and policy member for directorate who is the first port of call. You could not city services. expect councillors to know exactly what each officer does for everything, but there is one person to whom Q109 Chair: You are all most welcome. I think it you can say, “I have got an issue. I don’t know who helps, David, if you do not tell the Chair that he has deals with it. I will send it to you,” and that person changed a lot since you last saw him. We will put that can then send it on to the relevant officer and tell you to one side. We have already heard quite a bit about where it has gone. That has been very helpful. the community leadership programme for councillors, Another thing that has worked well has been the but it would be helpful to get your respective takes on increased use of IT to get information to councillors. how well you think that has been working and There is so much information about the city and often whether you particularly have felt supported by it and it has been very difficult to break it down to ward that it has worked for you as well. There are five of level, which the councillors want to know. You might you today, so if you all make a comment on want to know quite urgently that a road has been everything and agree with each other, we will be here closed in your ward, but you will not be in the least for quite a long time. If you agree with things that bit interested if a road has been closed in another have been said, there is no need to repeat it. Who ward. Ward bulletins have been very good at would like to kick off by giving their views on the highlighting on a map exactly what is happening in community leadership programme? your ward. Those are the two things I have found Michael Mordey: The inception of the community especially useful. leadership programme took place when I was first David Tate: We did a review a few years ago. I hope elected to the council in 2008. My perception is that this is what the leader has carried on. There was the it has worked fantastically well. The area response cabinet and then the members, if you remember. We teams are the best thing in my experience. If you have were not front-line councillors then; we were back- a problem in your ward and are rung up by a resident, bench councillors. Now we are front-line councillors you pick up the phone, in my case Nicky and that makes a big difference. We did ask questions Rowland, the response manager for the eastern area, of—what do you call them? Not the heads of and within hours the problem is dealt with, if not service—the big fellas, “What happens after you have resolved. Therefore, in terms of putting councillors on talked to your portfolio? How do the other front-line the front line and assisting us in our duties to the members,” as we call them now, “get to know?” From public, one aspect of the community leadership that came the bulletins. We insisted that whatever they programme is the team of area response managers, had was kept up to date, because when we go to ward and I think that is very worthwhile. surgeries we need to be able to contact that person. Dianne Snowdon: Like Michael, I joined the council As Councillor Oliver said, members of the public are at about the same time. I did not become a councillor very impressed when we can make contact there and to spend my time mainly in the civic centre but to then and prove to the resident that it is there. We can work in my ward. This process has enabled us to do do it electronically. We have iPads or tablets, or more work and be more ward based. The formation whatever they are called; we also have our of the people in the place boards and the area BlackBerries, and there is instant contact with the city, committees, as Councillor Gofton explained, will if anybody is there to answer the phone. They always enable us to be front-line councillors and do more for are, because the leader and his teams and the chief the people who put us there. That is my main role. I executive have put in place certain people. You will am there to represent my ward, Washington and then not get the answer straight away, but at least he will the city. acknowledge the query and give an answer within Colin Wakefield: The area response teams have been seven days. That has gone from there to having people a tremendous success because they bring the council on the ground working in the area, so you do not have closer to the people and in many ways reflect what we to phone the civic centre; you can go directly to them. had before. Councillor Tate mentioned that in 1974 I think there was a big reorganisation of officers. If we had smaller councils that were much more in touch you remember, Clive, they used to have their own with local people. It is probable that the bigger the little areas that they looked after. You could never council gets, the further away from the people it is, contact them—the chief officers; you could get the and this is a welcome step to bring councillors back head of service. They are just about all gone now, and to the people they are supposed to serve. we are changing to a can-do culture instead of, “We Robert Oliver: I was a councillor before the will go away and we will find out.” Among the community leadership programme. I have seen the officers now is a can-do culture. If there is a way of changes and many have been beneficial to the way I doing it, we will do it for you. I think the leaders have worked in my ward. What has been particularly have led on that all the way through, as have the chief useful is having an identified point of contact with executive and cabinet. council officers. We have a very large range of officers The only thing we have changed is the five or seven across a lot of directorates. I found that before it was chairmen we had for scrutiny who were some of the often very confusing to know exactly whom you brains. 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Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 29
9 July 2012 Councillor Robert Oliver, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Councillor David Tate, Councillor Dianne Snowdon and Councillor Michael Mordey we have investigated and done to help the council, impact on cutting the grass in my ward, so that is because our role is to assist the council. We will never certainly true. achieve what you do as a Select Committee. We have As far as concerns support from officers, the personal been told we are not Select Committees; we are just relationships between councillors and officers and the scrutiny committees, so we are here to help the way you handle officers are important. Are you really council and bring them to account at times, as you giving them all the information they need? Are you probably do with Ministers, but with a great deal having the meetings that are required as well? The more, shall I say, result than we do, but the cabinet structure put down here helps, but you also need to has always enlisted what we have suggested and what have site meetings and meetings with residents has happened. What he has done is to take all my without the framework we have heard about to make chairmen off us and made them policy advisers to the things work. For example, in my ward a mini- cabinet. We have become one scrutiny committee but roundabout has just been confirmed. It has taken eight we have six scrutiny panels, two of which are chaired years to get there. That is really nothing to do with by opposition members. They reflect the aims and area committees or Sunderland Way of Working; it is ambitions of the council, and they go away and to do with successive councillors and council officers investigate. I do not suppose you want to know what negotiating and pushing that issue all the way through. our investigations are going to be this year, but that is That could also have been done without this. Yes, I very interesting and is how we help the council am the opposition, so you would like a different take provide what the leader and the rest of the council from me. We must not hype it up too much. Much of want. it was there beforehand anyway and much depends on I do not know what happens in Parliament, but we things and personal relationships outside the structure. have 75 members and 60 of them are in scrutiny. That is your role after that, but we still have to put some Q111 Simon Danczuk: Colin, in opposing do you get of the officers and portfolios right. We are not back- support to be in opposition? That is what I am trying bench councillors now; we are front-line councillors, to get at. You do not oppose everything, but you have and that is our job. As Celia said, we are mini-mayors to challenge the control and leadership of the in our own wards as well as being on the area authority. That is healthy for democracy, isn’t it? Are committees. That is the way we should be looking at you getting the support from officers to be able to it. In the past I have come from committees right the do that? way through to cabinet; I have seen the whole system. Colin Wakefield: I think you have to be realistic in Nothing changes, as you will probably know, Clive; it this. There are three independents and eight all turns round, but I do not think we ever got this Conservatives. The amount of opposition we can far—bringing help to the people and meeting them, effectively bring is quite small, but we should not and it is a great thing. We are just starting to go into oppose for the sake of it either. If it is something good, it in depth, and I think it will be a great thing for the we should do that. It can put officers in a very difficult people and the country. position if the information we want is to oppose the Bill Esterson talked about the money. Don’t forget, majority of the council. It is unfair for us as members we had to give the Government £85 million last year to do that to officers, so in that regard we tend to do and we have £26 million this year, and we have £26 our own research, etc. Some officers are more million to find from the years after. Not only are we conscious than others of where their loyalties appear streamlining what we do; we have to get value for to lie. That is the reality of the situation. money from the whole thing. We are keeping up; I think we are one of the best councils in the country Q112 Simon Danczuk: Are there other training thanks to the leader of the team. needs? Michael, you are relatively new to the council; there are others as well. Are there training needs not Q110 Simon Danczuk: Chairman, I did not realise being met? Is anything required? you were quite as old as you are. You learn something Michael Mordey: I think the council has a pretty wide new every day. It is all very positive, isn’t it? I am a remit of training. If any member has any specific bit concerned that what we have heard so far is just training they want, we now have an account manager all very positive. Robert and Colin, your job is to to ask for it. There is not a restriction on what we can oppose; you are the opposition, aren’t you? Are you and cannot access; we literally just have to ask our getting enough support from the council and officers account manager. All of us have got one, and, within to be able to do your job and oppose? budgetary pressures, that training and resource will be Robert Oliver: We need to be honest about the service provided for us. delivery if you are making cuts. Many of the council Dianne Snowdon: We have all been encouraged. We officers in my area now have wider responsibilities take part in what we call the certificate for elected and have less time to do some of the work that members, which is a course done with Sunderland previously they might have done. I think that is an University. That teams up with other councils honest assessment of where we are with it. There have throughout the region. You get 60 points towards a been some efficiencies and streamlining, but there is degree. You work in partnership and see how other pressure on council officers to do more work. I was councils work. A large number of Sunderland talking to my area manager recently, who told me he councillors have done that course as well. had extra responsibilities for looking after parks and Robert Oliver: If I may make reference to training, crematoriums that he did not have before. 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Ev 30 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
9 July 2012 Councillor Robert Oliver, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Councillor David Tate, Councillor Dianne Snowdon and Councillor Michael Mordey main focus of my work is scrutiny of the council’s Council officers have done a good job in breaking it policy. Most of the training in terms of information down, keeping out of the politics of whether it is right comes from the Conservative Party. An important role or wrong, in terms of the impact on your constituents of your party is to provide that information to you. As and what you need to look at. That has happened far as concerns council officers, what you can expect consistently over the years. The policy and legislation from them is factual information, memos and asking briefings have been manageable. questions about things. That has been good. To be honest, at times I have had concern that some Q115 Bill Esterson: Moving on to a related question, controversial matters have been answered very, very do you think that officers are sufficiently politically slowly. That may be because of the nature of them. aware? If not, would they benefit from political Council officers are aware that they should be exact training? Perhaps Councillor Mordey would like to and correct in the answers they give, knowing that the answer. opposition is going to use them publicly and in the press. For example, if you ask a question about a Michael Mordey: In my experience, officers always controversy in the city where people are likely to be act with the utmost professionalism. They are aware criticised as a result, it is right they take their time to that councillors are political. We are political animals produce all the necessary information, but the quality by nature, but in terms of officers, in their capacity of that information has been very good. without a shadow of a doubt they act with 100% professionalism in my experience. Q113 Bill Esterson: The Councillors Commission in Colin Wakefield: Are we talking about Russian-type 2008 said that in many councils officers regarded political training? councillors as a nuisance. From what Councillor Tate Robert Oliver: I would agree with everyone else that said earlier, that may not be the case here—maybe it the council officers are impartial and have done a is—but I would be interested to hear some of the other good job of maintaining their impartiality. When you witnesses describe the relationship as it is, and have a change of government, it is especially whether it has improved since the new Way of important that council officers realise there is a Working was brought in, probably at about the same different way of working. For example, with the time as that report. demise of the RDAs and the rise of the LEPs, you are Colin Wakefield: Obviously, that is the case, and in moving from grant-based to more incentive-based the past it was probably more correct to say that we help for business, so it is important council officers got in the way. Possibly what has helped us to focus realise there is a new game in town politically and on the fact we are all in this together is the reduction they will have to latch on to something new. Maybe in the number of officers. It has possibly focused it could take a long time for that culture to seep people’s minds that they are also here to assist, and through if council officers and the Government have by and large that has greatly improved. There is still been there for a long time, but in general the response the odd pocket of resistance here and there, but I am to the new LEP, for example, has been quite positive. sure the chief executive will look into that. It has Council officers realise that that is where the money is certainly improved. going now and where council policy has to go as well. Dianne Snowdon: I have never experienced that myself. I am relatively new. I have been in the role Q116 Bob Blackman: Moving on, we have a wide for four years and I have always found that the officers range of levels of experience on the panel before us, are there—not to serve, because that is the wrong and people are motivated to become councillors for definition—and if there is anything we want them to different reasons. Equally, one of the other aspects of do, they will bend over backwards to make sure we this inquiry is how people become councillors. Can I are pointed in the right direction, and, if they cannot ask each of you to explain very briefly why you do it, the right person is contacted. I have always been treated with the utmost respect and dignity by our became a councillor and how that came about? officers, and I cannot fault them. Michael Mordey: The reason I became a councillor is that I grew up in the ward I represent. I wanted to Q114 Bill Esterson: Councillor Oliver, how about effect a change in the ward and contribute and give you? something back. I studied American studies and Robert Oliver: One of the ways in which officers politics at university. I joined the Labour Party when provide invaluable support to councillors is by way of I was 15 and became involved in the local branch. I information about legislation coming from Parliament. went up to the constituency party and then the wider That is a really big challenge for councillors. Many city party and generally became more involved in the ward issues are quite simple to understand, though not party. In time more doors opened. I thought, “If I can to deal with, but when you have big pieces of do that, maybe that will open.” Being involved in the legislation coming out of Parliament that councillors party at the grass roots is the first step. That was how are not expert in, a key role for the officers is to make I started. I am now into my second term as a sure that that information is passed on to them in a councillor and I am thoroughly enjoying it. Grass- way they can understand. For example, the recent roots local party politics is where I got my start. welfare reform proposals will have an impact on the Dianne Snowdon: I became involved as a school city that we need to know about, but we cannot expect governor to start with. It opened my eyes to the fact to be experts in welfare delivery and consequences. you needed to be in it to win it. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 31
9 July 2012 Councillor Robert Oliver, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Councillor David Tate, Councillor Dianne Snowdon and Councillor Michael Mordey
Q117 Bob Blackman: Did you become a school councillors want to do something in a ward; they take governor because your children were in the school, or the view that you have to put yourself up for were you motivated in the community? election—you have to do something rather than just Dianne Snowdon: I became a parent governor complain about things. You have to be involved and because my son came in from school and said, “Mum, be active. Many of the issues of your ward are not will you become a parent governor?” I got quickly political at all. Getting traffic lights changed, getting involved and became chair of governors, and then a mini-roundabout and getting the streets swept clean ended up fighting the school closure and the council. are not political at all. Because of that many of your I did not want my school closed. supporters might not necessarily be affiliated in voting terms to your party. Q118 Bob Blackman: Did you win? One of the good things about being a councillor is that Dianne Snowdon: Yes. The school governors gave people will support you even if they do not support me confidence to do other things. In another life, I you politically. That cuts both ways of course, but that spent 15 years as a battered wife, so I wanted to put is the way I would like things to be. I would like something back. Once I got confidence in my role as people to say, “We will support that person as a school governor I got more politically aware and councillor because he does a good job in the joined the Labour party late in life. I got involved and constituency,” not just because of the heritage of did eight years of grass-roots campaigning, and then voting in the city. I have worked my way up and went on to become a councillor. I have been around become leader of the opposition. The opposition is the block a bit. very important in any city, especially in Sunderland Colin Wakefield: It is a question I have sometimes where one group has ruled for a long time. It is asked myself. I became an independent councillor important there is a vibrant and robust opposition to because I led a group of local residents who were it, not just opposing for the sake of it but opposing to opposed to a massive landfill sited in the centre of put forward alternative ideas. It surprises people that Houghton-le-Spring. It was suggested at one point that sometimes things do get taken up from the opposition. we were not representative of the residents and were You have ideas or ask questions, and suddenly the just a bunch of crackpots. The second part of that may leader of the council says, “We are going to do that,” still be true. As a group we decided to challenge that, or, “We are going to respond to it.” It does not happen first in 2003. It was a pretty strong Labour ward. I that often, but occasionally it does and I can say to won the election as an independent. Once I had won people that the opposition is worth while. One of the it, it was a case of, “Now what the hell do I do?” problems for the opposition is that people say, We have grown in strength from that. All three “You’ve got only eight councillors. They’re not going independents are associated with that campaign and to take any notice of you; they’ll just steamroller it are active members. I do not have any great political through,” but, since you represent quite a lot of affiliation to any party; I am not a member of any, but people, often the council, even where the majority in many local issues “independent” is quite often the party is very dominant, must respond to constructive right way to go. There is not a political dimension if you need a zebra crossing or something like that; there criticism from the opposition, because it is speaking is or is not a need. That was how I got involved. on behalf of a lot of people.
Q119 Bob Blackman: You do not have any party Q120 Bob Blackman: Part and parcel of your role as support. You have an overwhelming Labour majority leader of the opposition is to identify potential against you. How can you get things done for the candidates to come forward for the party and to stand. benefit of your residents compared with, say, a Labour When you have got such a large majority against you, councillor in that particular ward? naturally people within the community will say, “I’d Colin Wakefield: The short answer is probably like to stand for the council but I’ve got no chance as stubbornness. People do recognise what is right and a Conservative; I’ll stand for Labour.” How do you wrong. Obviously, it is not the only issue, and we persuade people to stand up for the party, stand for work quite hard. I think that as an independent you election and possibly get elected? have to work a bit harder when you do not have any Robert Oliver: You are right; that is difficult, but often party support behind you. As I said, sometimes I ask party support is concentrated in certain wards. There the question of myself. are a number of wards in the city that have been Robert Oliver: Similar to Councillor Mordey, I did Conservative for a very long time. Those wards will politics at university. I have always been interested in attract a lot of candidates. Fulwell on the coast is politics. My family had a political heritage. My father traditionally one of our safest wards. The last time we worked in the NHS for a long time. My great- selected a candidate 10 people were interviewed. That grandfather was a Whitehall civil servant and is quite a lot when you consider that some MPs get probably acted as Clerk to one of your Committees a selected when there are only three on the final panel. long time ago. I have always been very interested in We can attract people when they feel they have a politics. The chance to become a councillor in St chance of winning there. We can also attract people Chad’s ward popped up by chance. I happened to live on the basis that they are not likely to win in a ward in a marginal ward. I got into politics slightly by but it will be good experience. “Maybe I can run a chance, but I have thoroughly enjoyed it. As campaign, get a bit of money and then move up.” The Councillor Wakefield said, many people who become Conservative party tends to run the selection in the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Ev 32 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
9 July 2012 Councillor Robert Oliver, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Councillor David Tate, Councillor Dianne Snowdon and Councillor Michael Mordey sense of a ladder. You have got to start off with a no- about how to change it to make it better for you as a hoper seat—there are plenty of those for us—and if ward councillor? you do a decent job there and help out with other David Tate: That is a question that needs to be asked people, maybe you can move up as vacancies occur and the leader needs to give us an answer. He has all in safer seats. We tend to attract people in that way, the people; I have not. I think we need to be able to but there are no two ways about it: when you are on spend more time in the wards, because he expects us the up and your party is not in government, you will to be on call and ready at a minute’s notice. The leader get lots and lots of people interested. The flipside is thinks everybody should be like him, working for the that people will say, “I’m not so interested anymore; council 24/7. We are, but to carry out that function we I’ll wait until you’re popular again.” need to spend some time in the ward rather than being in the civic centre or doing other things. I am sure Q121 Bob Blackman: David, you have been a some of the newer members are the same. We have councillor for a very long time. I do not want to more meetings now than we ever had. We have review everything you have done, but I put just two training and scrutiny. Now we have the people boards, quick questions. Why did you become a councillor in the area committees and the other boards. I am a the first place and what motivated you to do it? Is it governor of four schools, so it is always very difficult. better now than when you started? Don’t screw your face, Bob; that is the life you live. David Tate: I started with the council in 1979 when There are five schools in my ward. Margaret Thatcher was in power, so I have gone I just go through the small things that were achieved, through all this. The catering is worse now than it was which you did not ask us to do, Bob. Reference was then, but I am not really a judge of that. I worked at made to a roundabout. I have got a golf course. As you can imagine, the coal mining area was destroyed. the pits; I worked down the mines. I thought there was I am not blaming Maggie; by the time, we had nothing more to life than work. My dad was the Young left. In the time under Labour, not particularly under Socialist organiser for the constituency. I have been in this leader, but we have had bad things for this area. the Labour party for ever. I thought I could do a job. We have got country parks. I have three in the A lot of the training and stuff that goes on now is how Coalfield area. We have Hetton country park. When not to be a councillor, because it is all the things that he came to see us, he did not believe what we had you cannot do. You have got all these standards achieved. We have the Hetton Centre Library—all the boards and others. I came here to represent the people books and the whole community centre built for £2 who elected me, and I might be economical with the million or £3 million. We have just had a new baths truth, as a lot of politicians are, to try to get things for built for £6 million. We have had three new primary my ward. schools built under Labour. It has totally changed.
Q122 Bob Blackman: So, you are a great fan of Eric Q124 Bob Blackman: You have broadcast how Pickles, who has abolished the standards board. wonderful things are, but is it better now as a David Tate: I thought that was why I came. I am sure councillor than when you were first elected? Clive was the same when he first got on. We did not David Tate: I have to think about that, Bob, seeing come on for money, like they do now. We only got that the party you represent is now in power and we paid from 2001. We used to get just £10 a meeting, if are going through this recession, whoever’s fault it you had a meeting. You did not get paid for holidays, was. It is very difficult to say. so I did not come for the money; I came to represent people. Like Councillor Oliver, the opportunity came Q125 Bob Blackman: Don’t worry about the because in my area you had to be 50 to 60 before you politics. I am interested in the role of the councillor, were even considered. It was a strong Labour area. because it has changed massively. Unfortunately, the mayor at the time, who came from David Tate: It is massively more involved. As a Hetton, died. He was 59 or 60. My other two councillor—you do not have to be chairman of colleagues were in their 60s. I came on at 36. I was a portfolios—you are more involved; you have to be rising young star at that time, and I had to face because you have to face the problems that arise for Margaret Thatcher. It has gone from there. Clive will the residents you represent, especially if you are a probably tell you that the committees thought they had Labour party member. That is what I would say. some power but the officers had a lot of say in them. We had council meetings every month. All of the sub- Q126 Bill Esterson: Briefly—hopefully—I want to committees for the seven areas had to be looked after, come back to what Councillor Oliver said about being so you were pretty busy. I think I am busier now. We in opposition in an overwhelmingly controlled were told we would not be when the cabinet system council. Are there dangers in having very large came in, but we have more meetings and are more majorities on councils? In some places there are no involved. In this council—I do not know about other opposition councillors at all. There are some Labour councils—we are bogged down with training and and Conservative councils in that situation. Is there a coming in for committees and other things. problem with that, and is there a solution to it? Robert Oliver: There is a problem and the solution Q123 Bob Blackman: You have obviously got is probably what the people decide. I think that in concerns. Given your range of experience, what would Lincolnshire there is hardly a Labour councillor, and you say to the leader—here is your opportunity— in a few places, for example Newcastle, there will be cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 33
9 July 2012 Councillor Robert Oliver, Councillor Colin Wakefield, Councillor David Tate, Councillor Dianne Snowdon and Councillor Michael Mordey hardly any Conservative councillors. One has to repairs and things like that. Don’t they think you are respect what people have chosen, but where you do a little odd to choose this way of life? What would not have an opposition there is a problem because who you say to other young people to get them involved? then is going to do the scrutiny? Who is going to pick Do you think there are barriers to them becoming up matters when things are not right? It probably then councillors that we ought to be tackling and trying to falls to the local business community, and that is deal with? difficult because that is not officially a role for them. Michael Mordey: It is true that a lot of my friends think I am a bit geeky, but, at the end of the day, I tell Q127 Bill Esterson: Given that there are not that them that in the council I get to make the decisions. many of you here, are there enough of you to be People have elected me to come to the city council as effective? Is there another element to it? part of a majority group to effect change in the city Robert Oliver: Over the last four years or so we have where I live. The drawback is that sometimes you sit gone down from 22 to eight, so there has been a in this council chamber until 10 or 11 o’clock pulling significant fall. I feel we have enough, but how much your hair out and wishing you were at home, but it is you can really do is a bit difficult. If you look at the a huge honour and benefit to be here. I was 22 when number, there are more issues than there are I first got elected. The biggest barrier is juggling work opposition councillors, so you have to cut your cloth and family life and council duties, especially if you accordingly and focus on the issues that are really are a young woman or man about to start a family. If important to the people in the city. As to the role of we can get the balance right between work and civic the opposition, you are opposing where you feel that life, that will encourage a lot more young people. A the ruling party has not got it right, but you also have number of them think, “I just haven’t got time. I’m to have a quieter role in working with the majority 22; I want to be out on the town with my friends party to push things on and get things done, especially drinking and socialising, not sitting in a council when your party gets into government. The last year chamber until 11 o’clock at night,” but, if you can or two have been quite interesting. With break down the barrier and perception that it is all Councillor Watson I have worked behind the scenes about white, grey, middle-aged men and, once you are on a number of things that have been offered to the there, you can effect change, I think they will do it. city, either locally or nationally, to try to push them on and increase the volume of the voice of the city Q129 Chair: These are barriers that councils can at Westminster. help break down. We talked about the work/council Probably the best example is the New Wear Crossing, activity balance. Is there anything more that could be commonly known as the iconic bridge, where all the done to help people who have got jobs to be parties worked together. To be fair, it was in the councillors? pipeline under the last Government, but the final Michael Mordey: There are always more things you funding came under this Government. There is an can do. Our council meeting starts at 6.30 at night. important role for the opposition to play there. I wrote Apart from the structure of the meetings, councillors’ to Justine Greening about it and said, “Look, the city diaries are getting bigger and bigger and we have not needs not just a bridge—there is a case for that—but got room for much more. In terms of evening economic stimulus as well,” but it was also good for meetings, the council could provide childcare. If you the city politically. If a Conservative Government gets have children, day childcare could be provided. As to into power and starts delivering for a place that has physically doing more, I think a councillor has to be not had a Conservative MP for 40 years, people will able to juggle both. You must have the will to do it. start to say, “Maybe you are more of a one-nation You will not get people to come on the council who party than is made out; maybe you are reaching the do not want to do it. They will quickly find they parts that people say you’re not reaching.” There is cannot do it and they will either resign or see out also a role for the opposition there, but I would not the term. You must have a willingness to do it. Most deny that with fewer councillors what happens is that councillors who are elected are rare beasts. Politics a lot of the work gets concentrated more in the leader interests them; for many people, it does not. Just being and deputies. able to juggle things better will effectively encourage more young people. Q128 Chair: Councillor Mordey, at a time when all Chair: Thank you all very much indeed for coming your friends are out enjoying themselves, you are to give evidence to us. It has been appreciated. stuck in council meetings and monitoring pavement cobber Pack: U PL: CWE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02
Ev 34 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Councillor Paul Watson, Chair, Councillor Jeff Reid, Leader of Northumberland County Council, and Councillor Judith Wallace, Deputy Mayor of North Tyneside, Association of North East Councils, gave evidence.
Q130 Chair: Thank you very much for coming, and budget was £10 million. The county council unitary’s welcome to our inquiry. For the sake of our records, budget is £458 million. That in itself is difficult for could you say who you are and the organisation you people to get their heads around, and the kinds of represent? thing that a district councillor had to know have been Judith Wallace: My name is Judith Wallace. I am swallowed up by all the strategic stuff that needs to from North Tyneside Council and I represent St be considered now. Does that answer your question? Mary’s ward. I am deputy to the elected mayor, and I Chair: Thank you. am also leader of the Conservative group. Paul Watson: I think it has changed absolutely Paul Watson: My name is Councillor Paul Watson, dramatically in the last decade and a half. Certainly and for these purposes I am Chair of the Association from the legal position, where we were committee run of North East Councils. and had committee systems to a cabinet and a leader, Jeff Reid: My name is Jeff Reid. I represent Plessey and then the possibilities of, lately, local elected ward in Northumberland County Council. I am also mayors, it has changed unrecognisably now, I think, the leader of that authority. and the role therefore needs to change as well. I think, also, the changes are being driven more by technology Q131 Chair: You are all most welcome. What we are and what you are expected to know. You cannot hide trying to get at in our inquiry is the extent to which anywhere now and say, “I was not aware of that.” It the role of councillor has changed over the years. is hitting you 24/7; you should be aware if you are Perhaps you would say a little about that, and whether awake and you are not unconscious. I think the role is from your experience councillors now perform a very absolutely different. In essence, I think it is the same different role from that which they would have played role about representation and about caring for your 10 or 20 years ago. community and making sure you look after your Judith Wallace: I have only been a councillor since community in the best possible way, but the role and 2007, Chair, so it is a little difficult for me to compare how you do it is vastly different. going back 10 or 12 years. I do not feel that there has been a change within my five years on the council, Q133 Chair: Councillor Wallace, does the different although my role within it has changed, because model of local government you have with an elected initially I was an opposition councillor. With the mayor make a difference to the role of councillor? election of a mayor of a different political persuasion, Judith Wallace: Throughout my time on the council my role within the administration changed, but I still we have had an elected mayor. North Tyneside is, feel that we do have a very active role within the ward perhaps, unusual in that, in the decade we have had representing ward concerns, whether it be paving an elected mayor, we have had different political stones or whatever and, of course, the involvement in persuasions, and I think for only 10 or 11 months we the policy decisions, which are partly political. have had the elected mayor of the same party as the Jeff Reid: I have been involved, more or less, since majority party in the council. So it has always been a 1973—I am older than I look. I was on the borough mixture, shall we say. council at Blyth Valley and then there was local Regarding whether it makes a difference to the role of reorganisation four years ago and all of the districts councillor, we have the elected mayor as head of the went, so Northumberland is a unitary. As you can executive with the cabinet, and then the back-bench imagine, the whole thing has been turned upside down councillors within that party. So of course it is from when I joined Blyth Valley, a ward with three important for the mayor and cabinet to keep in touch members, from emptying bins and street-level stuff to with the back-bench councillors and endeavour to the strategic monster that Northumberland is now, but explain the decisions and so forth. Of course, we have still trying to make sure that the bins are emptied and a very lively opposition still endeavouring to both the streetlights are on. I have seen an absolutely represent their wards and oppose on policy issues too. massive change, and from being elected to a group that was in opposition to becoming leader of a council Q134 Bill Esterson: We heard earlier about is a quantum leap that you cannot measure. My own Sunderland’s experience of devolution. Perhaps I can personal political career has been probably more ask Councillor Wallace and Councillor Reid about extreme than most. this. How much decision making is devolved within your authorities and how important is it to do that? Q132 Chair: To follow up on that, apart from your Do you want to go first, Councillor Wallace? own personal position, you obviously oversee Judith Wallace: Decision making to the mayor and councillors as well and look at what they do, as back- cabinet? bench councillors, in their daily work. Is their role now different from what it was when you joined the Q135 Bill Esterson: No, within the wards. We heard council? Are there more responsibilities for them? Are earlier about the area committees and the devolution they being pushed out by the cabinet system? Is there within Sunderland, either to area committees or to a difference? what you might call back-bench councillors to make Jeff Reid: Yes, there is a huge difference. The districts executive decisions. Perhaps it does not work within dealt with more neighbourhood things. Blyth Valley’s your borough. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 35
9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Jeff Reid and Councillor Judith Wallace
Judith Wallace: Within our borough, we do not have have control over it, whether it is once a month, twice ward committees; we have area forums. The borough or month or whatever. So they can affect the is divided into four; each has an area forum, on which mainstream budgets as well, which indirectly gives the councillors for the wards within that quarter sit. them access to much, much more influence. They meet quarterly with the general public, and both Judith Wallace: I think necessarily there is going to the public and the councillors can put forward ideas be a conflict between the views of the individual for spending the environmental budgets allocated to councillors, or those in opposition anyway, and the each committee. At the quarterly meetings, votes are executive, because the executive, of whatever political simply taken on the various projects that are put persuasion, having been elected to carry out those forward, and so the votes are a mixture of the general particular policies will wish to do so. I do not think public and the ward councillors. That is how the anyone in that position would willingly surrender their devolution works there. powers to do so either. They have the mandate to Once the votes have been taken, the ward councillors bring forward those policies, and that is what he or then meet and decide upon the allocation of the she will wish to do, and it is by their success or money, and we do it on the basis that the most popular otherwise that he or she will be judged when it comes projects are successful, the least popular are not, and to the next election. I think it is very important that then they go, ultimately, to the mayor to be signed off. all members are informed about what is going on. We That system has worked well for us. do have regular members’ briefings to explain to all Jeff Reid: We have three area committees, but unlike the back-bench councillors what is happening, and the Sunderland and North Tyneside, Northumberland is a officers are very good with their involvement in those huge place. There is a division called Bellingham and presentations and explanations, and there is very often I have a few sparsity notes just so I get it right. The a lively discussion at those too. biggest division in Northumberland is 868 square kilometres. You could fit Newcastle City Council Q137 Bill Esterson: Just to come back to you, 7.7 times into that one division, so we have huge though, if back-bench councillors do not feel included problems of bigness, for want of a better word. 50% in decision making, isn’t there a danger that they will of the population live in 3% of the area. Therefore, respond unfavourably in the long term, one way or Northumberland is twice as sparse as it might appear, another? because 50% of the rest of the population live in 97% Judith Wallace: Are you talking about back-bench of the area, so we have a big problem with an urban councillors of the same party as the executive or all clump. I represent the smallest division, by area, back benchers? which is about three-quarters of a kilometre, and you Bill Esterson: All back benchers. have Bellingham at the other end, which is as I have Judith Wallace: I suppose there is always that risk. said. One of the high schools in the west area, its Overview and scrutiny, of course, is there to act as a catchment area is bigger than the area encompassed critical friend. Sometimes perhaps it is felt that it is by the M25. entirely opposition rather than a critical friend, but I We have three area committees. As much as we can think that applies equally on both sides of the coin. I is devolved to those three area committees, but they think the opposition councillors can get more involved work in very different ways. The area committee in through overview and scrutiny and, of course, some the south-east is dominated by the Labour Party and things still have to come to full council for decision. the others are Lib Dem-Tory splits. As much as For example, there are limits in the council’s possible is delegated to them, but the real decisions constitution on borrowing levels: anything over come back to scrutiny in their cabinet, because it is £1 million has to come to full council, and there is the the only way politically we can make it work. opportunity for all councillors to be involved then.
Q136 Bill Esterson: Since the cabinet model came Q138 Bill Esterson: What about back benchers of in and, in some cases, the elected mayor model, is the ruling group? Don’t they feel excluded as well? the devolution of significant budgets the only way to Judith Wallace: That is something you have to be involve the vast majority of councillors in having mindful of, and you have to endeavour to explain to power and control, or do you think there are other your backbenchers what you are doing and to try to ways of doing it? keep them onside, otherwise, yes, I think there is a Paul Watson: I am not sure. There have to be other risk that they would feel neglected. Although, of ways, but obviously they say, “What gets measured course, they obviously have a lot of work to do on gets done.” Well, what gets funded gets done, so if committees throughout the council, but yes, I think it you have control of the resources, you tend to have is a matter that you have to be mindful of. the power to make things happen and effect change. I think it is important that any devolution, in any Q139 Simon Danczuk: I am interested in the respect, shape or form, is resourced as well for that councillor/officer relationship. Starting with you, Jeff, devolution to work, if it is not just a talking shop. At if we go along the panel, can you just summarise for the end of the day, it is really important, in my me what you think the job of councillor leadership is opinion, that in our case the area committees are as it relates to senior council officers? You are a leader resourced to do that. I think it is more than ways of of a council; what is your primary objective? What is just devolving direct budgets to them: if we also have your job in terms of senior council officers? a city-wide budget, say, for cutting the grass, then Jeff Reid: That is an interesting question. I think my whatever is their proportion of grass cutting, they can job, with the council only being four years old and the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Ev 36 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Jeff Reid and Councillor Judith Wallace
Lib Dems not having overall control, is to act as an of training, then it is facilitated, absolutely. But as far arbiter between the various factions and keep the as allowances and things are concerned, none of the council moving forward. My aim is to make sure that staff has had a rise either, so we are all in it together. we deliver the budget we set, make sure that the Paul Watson: About rises, there would be an council tax is at a level that people will support, and insurrection out there if you were to give yourself a make sure that the officers engage with all the rise. We have an independent panel that evaluates councillors appropriately. what we should get, and two or three years ago they suggested we should get a rise and, independently, Q140 Simon Danczuk: Paul, how would you councillors rejected that and did not accept that rise. summarise it? So I think there is some common sense there, but there Paul Watson: I do not think there is a one size fits all. are a couple of things about the question that are I absolutely think that the relationships between the pertinent underneath that. As Jeff said, I think about leader of the council, from whichever party, the other Northumberland, and I do not know how far the leaders of the groups and the chief executive are furthest point away is—outside Berwick or crucial to making any organisation work. The somewhere—but a Northumberland councillor— chairman and the chief executive roles are central to Jeff Reid: Sixty miles. that. Obviously, you have to have a balance there Paul Watson: They might travel three hours, and what between that mutual respect and getting into maybe we have to be aware of is that we empower them. too friendly a situation, because there are always times Some of the conversation earlier today was about when you have to say, “Just a minute; that is not the barriers to people becoming councillors. If we are not way our policy dictates we should go.” Obviously, facilitating fully and properly the ability of everyone people militate towards doing their jobs as best they to partake in the democratic process and be an elected can. From a certain point of view, it would be much representative, I think that is wrong and we should not easier if everything was run just by a couple of allow that to happen. However, I absolutely do think executive people and you could go through the that there should not be any excess there. There common-sense results, but I think that we bring a should be the minimum that is needed to enable personal, a community and a more human side to that, people to take part and no more. where we knock some of the harsher edges off what Judith Wallace: We, likewise, have cut things like could affect our communities. So I think really it is catering, and I have already teased Paul for the bottle about doing the best you can using common sense, of water that we have here today. He assures me it just forging ahead where you can and trying to, comes out of the taps fizzy in Sunderland. Things like importantly, bring people with you. allowances are frozen as well. There has been some Judith Wallace: I think we have a good working carping in the chamber that our allowances are low relationship with our officers. Obviously, the compared with other areas. My personal view is that executive have to explain what the policy is and meet there are, generally, at least three candidates for every with them regularly to ensure that the policies are put job, and I think the public would be utterly into action. We do meet regularly with the leaders of unsympathetic as to any rise in councillors’ the other groups as well. The chief executive, the allowances. Every penny that we spend is council tax directors and the leader of each group have a regular payers’ money and we have to justify that on the monthly meeting at which any concerns can be aired, doorsteps. Even if we are saying to people, “There is and we hope that that is a good way of trying to iron £500 being spent,” that is your council tax for two, out difficulties and keep everybody onside. three, four months or whatever, and we have to show that we have spent it well. Q141 Simon Danczuk: Do you think the senior As regards support for us, as councillors, we do still officers understand the role you have as councillors? have the members’ team to whom enquiries can be Do they understand it, do you think? directed, who find the appropriate officer within the Judith Wallace: Yes, I think so. organisation to direct that. I think that is more important for the back-bench councillors, who do not Q142 Simon Danczuk: Changing the subject have the day-to-day dealings with the officers and do slightly, I have noticed from speaking to councillors not necessarily know to which officer an enquiry across the country that there are lots of cuts: they are should go. Those teams still work very well and I do losing the meals that they usually get before not think they have been affected at all in terms of committee meetings; they are losing the car parking efficiency by the current financial climate. that they used to get free for council meetings; allowances have been frozen; and things like that. Are Q144 Simon Danczuk: My final question: according budget constraints impacting on the support and to a survey of councillors across the UK, a good training that councillors get? Just briefly, if you proportion have a professional or managerial would. background before they become councillors, or in Jeff Reid: If only I had ever been given a meal by the their work life. How important is that? Councillors council. We have never done anything like that. are running multi-million pound organisations, aren’t they? Is it important that they have that sort of Q143 Simon Danczuk: Ignoring the meals and car background, do you think? parking, what about in terms of support and training? Jeff Reid: I think it has become more important and Jeff Reid: As we were saying before, we have a that is part of the problem. To do this job you need budget, and if somebody wants to do a particular bit no qualifications at all other than the brass neck to cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 37
9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Jeff Reid and Councillor Judith Wallace stand on people’s doors saying, “Vote for me.” There average age of a councillor is now 60 and rising. Does is a lack of capacity sometimes in people’s it matter and should we be looking for other sorts understanding when you are faced with taking of candidate? £100 million out of a half a billion pound business, Jeff Reid: I got involved in getting my mother elected which is what we have had to do. We have taken £101 in 1973, so I have been around the houses a bit. Does million out in four years or something. it matter? The total ethnic population of Northumberland is less than 1% of the 312,000 people Q145 Simon Danczuk: So you think it is helpful or who live there, so we are vastly white British. I think beneficial that councillors have that sort of the proportion of females is probably background? under-representative of the population as a whole, Jeff Reid: I think it is beneficial but, as I started to because probably more women live in answer the question, there is no pre-qualification to do Northumberland than men. No, I do not think it does the job that I have. You just have to feel as though matter. I think that is what our society here is. Look you can knock on doors and ask people for support at us this morning: here we are, all WASPs, aren’t we, and properly run campaigns, but I am not an more or less? accountant. I think it is beneficial to have people involved who understand the issues, not people who Q148 Bob Blackman: What about, in your case, have got involved for all the right community reasons younger people coming on? and then find themselves in a position where they just Jeff Reid: That was a long time ago. have not got the wherewithal, the intellectual capacity, to understand the position we find ourselves in now. Q149 Bob Blackman: No, no, attracting younger candidates, because that is one of the challenges, Q146 Simon Danczuk: Do you have a different isn’t it? viewpoint? Jeff Reid: Is it? I am not particularly worried about Paul Watson: Slightly, because I just wonder how whether we have younger members or not. There is a Bob Diamond would have fixed Jeff’s £100 million, certain maturity needed in doing this and, as Judith so I am not absolutely convinced that it is just a said before, we have never had a shortage of people professional or managerial qualification there. I think wanting to stand. My mother got elected in 1973, and some of the people who survive on very tight budgets about 18 months into it she realised she hated it. This and worry about paying electricity bills and worry is not for everybody. I have plenty of people contact about paying rent can get it much clearer and much me of all genders and ages, asking me to help them easier when it comes to saying, “If you do not have improve their lives or get something fixed or any money, you have to cut it; you cannot use it.” So whatever. As long as that is happening; as long as there is some of that in it, but in truth, it has to be there is not constantly a stream of older white men about the quality of the person and the ability of the ringing me up saying, “Jeff, I need you to help me.” person to understand. I think that is not confined to I would be more worried about that than the split of one sort of paragon of the community. I think, yes, it gender and age on the council. is nice to have people trained, but the point is we As you get older, you have kids and you put them spend many millions each year on professional through school, and then you have done your expertise, our officers get good money for their parenting bit and they have moved on, and then qualifications and their professions, and we get people think, “I want to be more involved in my consultants in ad infinitum, so we should be well community.” My son is a football coach in covered. Northamptonshire, and I would rather he was doing Judith Wallace: I think there is room for all that—taking his son, engaging in football, running the experience. It is beneficial, I think, if people do have team, making sure they all turn up—than knocking on the professional managerial background. Equally, it is doors asking people to vote for him in some kind of good to have people who come from a different aspect election. There is far more community stuff going on and can look at things with a completely fresh pair of other than this and, as I said at the very start, this job eyes. There is an awful lot of officer-speak in has changed. For me, certainly, it has changed councils. I found that in particular in my first year immeasurably. It has become far more difficult to when I was elected. I spent most of every meeting deliver what people want, because of the diminishing saying, “What does this mean? What does that mean?” resource, so I am not worried about it at all. There is a complete alphabet soup in a lot of public sector reports, and I think sometimes it is good to have Q150 Bob Blackman: Paul, you seem to have people who do not come from that kind of background attracted more younger candidates to become at all, who can say, “Frankly, this is a load of tosh. councillors, and more women, in comparison with What on earth does this mean?” and can cut through other local authorities. Does that become more of a that. As Paul said, you have your professional officers, challenge, because these people want things to be hopefully, to give you the good advice for the good different? salaries they are paid. Paul Watson: No. We have actively tried to make ourselves appealing, but—getting away from political Q147 Bob Blackman: That takes me on to parties now—as a council we have not done anything recruitment of councillors. The current position is that that we would necessarily change. Obviously, the two-thirds of councillors across England and Wales success, if you want to call it that, is in how we are are male, only 4% are from ethnic minorities, and the portrayed in the media and the things that we take a cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Ev 38 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Jeff Reid and Councillor Judith Wallace position on, whether they are particularly relevant and now, that I would be able to continue my work in the pertinent to women or to young people or the BME real world and squeeze this in somehow. I cannot do community, which in Sunderland is around about 3%. it. If you are not engaging somewhere, you have more You might well say that, out of 75 and 283,000 people to read than you and I have had hot dinners, and then in Sunderland, it might be over-representation if you you have all the ward work, with people ringing you had one minority ethnic person on the council, if you up. I got here because I am connected with the looked at it exactly like that. But the whole point is community I represent, so you cannot just say, “Sorry, not, I think, about absolute numbers. It is about I have something else on.” You have all of that to do democracy, and I was saying earlier that we should be and you have all this to do. When you are not sitting encouraging and allowing people to vote for people in the position that Paul and I have, you may fondly who they want to represent them, not putting some imagine that you would do it differently, but you constraint by saying, “Oh, your council chamber’s cannot. It consumes you. Being leader of a council is only got 35 or 40, out of 75 people, who are women a full-time job. Other things, maybe not, and, as you and you should really have exactly half.” Is that true? realise, portfolio holders and scrutiny chairs get a Should we not be empowering people to elect the percentage of what the leader gets, because it is people whom they wish to represent them, because deemed that, if this is a full-time job, then all of the there are some big barriers to particular individuals? I others are part-time jobs. I guess that would be true if think Councillor Wakefield this morning was saying you were chair of a scrutiny committee in that being an independent councillor and getting that Northumberland. It is probably only 40% or 50% of single issue that propels them to prominence in their your time. community and then allows them to develop a wider platform for policies and whatnot, and gives people Q154 Bob Blackman: One of the barriers for you the opportunity to vote for a wider, more disparate must be the sheer distances involved. selection of people, is good. That is what we should Jeff Reid: Oh yes. As Paul was saying before, be aiming for. Maybe we have too strong a hold on Berwick is 60-odd miles from Morpeth, where the what is, in Sunderland, virtually a two-party system. council is held. When we set up the unitary authority, we thought to make it easier we would have Q151 Bob Blackman: Judith, you described your committee meetings in the late afternoon and the early experiences of being a councillor and the council in the evening. Then it was pointed out that, abundance of TLAs and jargon. What have you done for anybody living in the rural north, if you had a to change that for other people following you? meeting at 6 o’clock, they may not get in until 1 Judith Wallace: I have constantly told the officers o’clock in the morning, which is unsustainable. So we where I think the reports are utterly unreadable and a meet at 3 and, hopefully, get it over with by 6, so that load of gobbledygook and asked for them to be when the dark nights are here, it is 8 or 9 o’clock rewritten, and I think we have reports now that are when some of them get home. There is a definite more comprehensible. I hope it is not just that I have problem in the areas that Northumberland administers. become used to officer-speak and adapted myself. Paul Watson: An overnight stay. Bob Blackman: They have not trained you and Jeff Reid: Not more money. corralled you yet. Paul Watson: I absolutely could not do this part time, Judith Wallace: Yes, I hope I have not succumbed to and you cannot have a serious job and switch your that. I think our reports are more readable and more mind between the two. We talked about people who intelligible, and we try not to talk in jargon anymore. become leader of a council being qualified to be doing something serious. I think the bigger impact as well Q152 Bob Blackman: Do you think that was a is new councillors coming in. If you were to say to a barrier to other people, such as you, coming on to a cohort of young people leaving one of the universities council in the first place—that there was this mystique as law graduates this year, “Right, we want enough of about what a councillor does? you to get trainee solicitorships or pupillages,” but Judith Wallace: No, I suspect not. I suspect, in truth, even as a back bencher or front-line councillor, you most candidates have not read very many of the would be turning round and saying, “You need six or reports. Perhaps if they read a lot of them, there would so hours a week on average.” So you are going to start be even fewer candidates. But I do not think that your job saying to your new employer straight away, deters people. I think it has to be an enthusiasm, but before you start at the bottom, “I need a few hours a perhaps in two ways: an enthusiasm for your area and week off to work as a councillor,” or “To go and do the hope that it can be better and, in all probability, my duties as a councillor.” If you were lucky enough a political enthusiasm for one or other of the three to get that situation all round, then after four years, if main parties. you were to be re-elected or if you decided it was too much, then you are in a lump behind the cohort that Q153 Bob Blackman: Do any of you think that the you started with. When they ended up being partners hours that a councillor works—and, in some ways and in the firm, you would still, hopefully, be a senior certain council positions, being the leader and other solicitor somewhere, if you could manage to do it. things; it is a full-time job—are a barrier to anyone All the professions would be the same, and then standing for election, and is there anything being done people would look around the country and say there to reduce those barriers? was a dearth of people with the highest qualification, Jeff Reid: I think it is a barrier. I fondly had imagined, but no wonder. Time is critical in the early days of when I was elevated to this lofty position that I have your career and building up your reputation and your cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 39
9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Jeff Reid and Councillor Judith Wallace portfolio of work that you have done. So it does not become a councillor; just forget about it. We will have surprise people, I think. That is the way it is and I am the retired and the unemployed instead.”? not sure what you would do to change that. Somebody Jeff Reid: That is an interesting point, but in all of gave me the Guardian from 1861 and it was mourning this I have never ever met anybody who does this for the dearth of young people in politics, and there the money—never. It is not the thing that drives any always will be. I know Michael who was here giving of us. I would be shocked if either of my colleagues— evidence earlier is an exception, and Jeff, indeed he said, was one of the youngest councillors when he first Q156 Chair: Right, but often people do not do it started, but they have a need for public service in their because their families would be asked to make too big families and whatnot. I think I would worry about a a sacrifice if they did. young person who had no connection deciding at 21 Jeff Reid: I have never come across anybody who or 22 they wanted to come here rather than be in a said, “I would stand if I had my earnings replaced.” I disco somewhere. do not think that is how people’s minds work on this. Jeff Reid: Thanks, Paul. I cannot think of any instance where somebody has Paul Watson: I think we want fully rounded members said, “I cannot afford to be a councillor.” I have heard of society to come here. I think Jeff described very some people say, “I cannot afford not to be,” but that cogently the pressures in your life: you are starting is another thing. In my experience, no one has ever out in a career, starting out in work, you need as big gone into this because of the financial reward. It is a mortgage as you can, and you have a couple of more about being part of the community they live in, young kids. By the time you get them through and wanting to be a politician, and wanting to have a you are in your 40s, say, they may be up and at debate somewhere, not in a pub but in a committee university, the mortgage is more manageable, you meeting or a council meeting, arguing a view that they have found a place in your firm or your job that is not genuinely hold from a political perspective. There so time-consuming, maybe, and you find you are able may be some people who say, “I would not give up to give. That is when I think people do give to their 10 grand a year to be a councillor, because I have a community in lots of ways, through community job that earns 50 and the replacement is not the same.” associations, school governors and various things like I think most people would work round it, and if they that. It is not surprising to me that public service as really wanted it, then they would sacrifice the money. well benefits from that. I have personally not come across that scenario. Judith Wallace: A couple of points. For age, we have Paul Watson: I would not totally disagree with Jeff. I just had a councillor elected in North Tyneside who is think there is a lot of sense in what he said, but there 19. He is not in my group, but he is 19 and seems to is another consideration there as well. People on that be enthusiastic. The youngest councillor in my group kind of money would also be saying, “Well, it is not was elected at 27 and he is a cabinet lead. So I think just me, and would I be selfish enough to make that we are managing to attract young people, though I do sacrifice when I know it would impact on my family understand the comments that have been made. We and there would be less resource for my family?” I meet as a council at 6 o’clock. We have considered think there is another issue there. I am sure that the moving it earlier, both from the point of view of allowances you get count as a salary, so that then family life and from the point of view of cost of people who are on benefits do lose their benefits. officer time, but the overall view was that it was I think there is a wider aspect when you are a impractical to have the meetings in the afternoon. councillor. I expect all our councillors attend Secondly, I am not sure that it matters really what age residents’ association meetings and different services people are, but that they are enthusiastic and prepared and things like that. They are expected to look to give the commitment, and we are looking at a reasonably presentable. They are expected to maybe society that is ageing. We are healthier, mostly and put something in collection trays and things like that, hopefully, as we get older, and if people could, say, in and there are travel expenses that are not directly the 19th century be very active politicians well into claimed. Sometimes, in that regard, it can cost you not their 70s and 80s, I think it is wrong that now, in a great deal but a little bit of money. At the bottom 2012, we seem to have a great pressure to encourage end as well, it can be prohibitive there when parties more younger people. I think the important thing is put their requirements on people about what you we encourage active and enthusiastic people. should do to be part of that local authority, so it can cost you a little bit. If you are on benefits and that Q155 Chair: It is also about making sure that some reduces your benefit, you would find it really difficult people are not discouraged or prevented from to live in those circumstances. standing. Just picking up the point about allowances, I think minimum wage is another consideration. If you somebody in a reasonable job is not going to be a think that you will work 37 hours or something for councillor full time, but they might take up a position £6.50, or whatever the minimum wage is—£6 and so it takes them a day or two a week. If they are something—you will come out with £210 a week. earning £50,000 or £60,000 in a reasonable job, Reasonably, you will be paying £100 rent; you will be should we really be asking them to make that sort of paying £100 to the supermarket for yourself, your sacrifice, because they do not get paid to be at work wife and your kids to eat. So where do you get the for the day or two that they are on council duties? Is clothing, where do you get the gas and electricity bills, it reasonable to ask them to make that financial where do you get the council tax from? It massively sacrifice to be a councillor? Are we effectively saying affects people who are on smaller incomes as to to some people, “You are earning too much money to whether they can come on the council and whether cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Ev 40 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
9 July 2012 Councillor Paul Watson, Councillor Jeff Reid and Councillor Judith Wallace they can afford to do anything, because there is a trap worth a bean.” I have had people say that to me: “Are there and there is unseen expense as well. So I think you paid anything? That is absolutely shocking. I it is pertinent right the way through. begrudge every cent.” I can see that there is a Judith Wallace: I agree with what has been said. I do problem, but I do not think people come into it for the not think that people come into it for the salary or money and I am afraid I have no answer as to how allowances, call it what you will, and I do not know you solve it. how you solve the problem. I do not think there would be any support from the general public for increasing Q157 Chair: On that final point, we will conclude allowances. Indeed, in about 2009, when the MPs’ this part of the session. Thank you very much indeed expenses scandal was in the press every day, there was for coming to give evidence. a very definite change on the doorsteps: “None of you are worth anything. You are all the same. You are not
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Alan Wright, Chairman, City of Sunderland Conservatives, Councillor Tom Wright, Secretary, Washington and Sunderland West Constituency Labour Party, and Chair, Sunderland City Labour Group, and Geoff Pryke, Delegated Nominating Officer, Wearside Liberal Democrats, gave evidence.
Q158 Chair: Thank you very much for coming to interview to go on the approved list. We usually do give evidence to our Inquiry. Just for the sake of our get quite a few people interested from the records, could we ask you to say who you are and the membership. They then come in, go through an organisation you represent, please? interview process with the management board, the Alan Wright: Good morning. I am Alan Wright, leader and, usually, deputy leader of the group as well, Chairman of the City of Sunderland Conservative and we draw up a list of approved candidates for the Party, an ex-councillor; I served four years as a list. colleague of Robert Oliver, who gave evidence We have had a slight rule change recently that we earlier—four very enjoyable years. Unfortunately, I have just incorporated into our association rules. We lost my seat this year. I have long argued that the now write to everybody on the approved list to advise chairman of the local party should not be a serving them of wards where there are vacancies, so they then councillor, so you have to be careful what you wish can apply to the ward committee or the sector for. I had a very successful career and wanted to put committee that covers that ward. If there is no ward a bit more back into the community, and that is why committee structure in place, the management board I stood as a councillor on retirement. I did have a bit will step in and carry out the selection. It is people of an overlap, so I can sympathise with a lot of what who have applied from our membership base to be on has been said about how difficult it is to be a the approved list, and then they are invited to apply councillor and work at the same time. I had only seven for wards where there are vacancies. Our rules do state months of it and it was an absolute nightmare. If you that sitting councillors will be shown a preference, but are a conscientious councillor, it is very, very difficult. not necessarily exclusivity, for that seat. Thank you. Tom Wright: We have a few processes. We have, as Tom Wright: Good morning. Can I give you all a very those of you who are members of the party know, a warm welcome to Sunderland? It is very good to see rolling panel anyway and it is ongoing all the time, Parliament here. My name is Tom Wright. I am a but normally, round about now, the local government councillor, 10 years in May, for St Anne’s ward in committee will be starting to think about next year’s Sunderland. I am a front-line councillor, and I was— elections. We have a fallow year in Sunderland, but I nearly said lucky—unlucky enough to have been on normally we write to every member in the City of the cabinet for a year. I am also, through being a Sunderland, which covers the three constituencies, to Sunderland councillor, Chair of the Tyne and Wear see if anybody is interested. Normally, within a ward, Fire and Rescue Service. Thank you. local councillors and local party members might Geoff Pryke: Hello, I am Geoff Pryke. I am the identify people as well. In encouraging that, we have Delegated Nominating Officer for the Liberal quite a few councillors who mentor people, and we Democrats in Sunderland. have the odd one who might be thinking of retiring who will encourage someone. The party itself, about Q159 Chair: We would like to explore with you, to once or twice a year, does quite good mail shots or begin with, the issue of trying to get people to stand newsletters, which go direct to every party member to as candidates for council. Could you just say, each of encourage them to think about being a councillor and you, fairly briefly, what process you go through to try coming forward. to recruit candidates? Particularly, do you identify the A ward with a councillor can fast track them if they candidates or do they identify themselves and put want to and shortlist one. If they do not, they have to themselves forward, as a general rule? shortlist at least two. Some wards will have three, Alan Wright: We use our local membership base to four, five or six and at least one must be a female. attract candidates for council elections. I personally That was part of the Project 99 thing we set up, and write to all the members in our association asking if if you want me to go into more detail I can, but that anyone is interested in putting themselves forward for is the thrust of how we try to get across to our cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 41
9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke members. We have a panel now, even though we have things along that line. There might be a couple of not got elections until 2014, and we encourage questions to see if they are aware of scrutiny or anybody to come forward, hopefully in every avenue, diversity or the role of the whips, etc. I like to think to come on to that panel. the panels are pretty positive and more inclusive. I do Geoff Pryke: Our process is very simple: it is called not think the word “formal” is the right word. They coercion. We have about 50 members who cover the are not there to say, “Are you up to scratch? Are you whole of the Sunderland borough and we try to get as up to standard?” It is a bit of an enabling process, I many of those members to stand in wards as we can. hope, and I think we have always gone on those lines. We get a handful of people who really want to do The other thing is, as well as being Chair of it and the rest have to be persuaded. It is as simple Sunderland Labour Group, I am a constituency as that. secretary, and once anybody expresses an interest I make sure they get the dates and times of all council Q160 Chair: This may be more directed at the meetings and their area committee, so they can start Labour and Conservative parties, given that particular coming along to see what sorts of thing are discussed answer, but when people put themselves forward and what is going on. Normally, I will have a word initially and before you get to the selection by the with them or get their ward councillors to have a word ward, is there any form of interview process to decide with them to keep that positive request going and that someone is appropriate to go on a panel for make sure we are as helpful as we can be. There are selection? Is any help and encouragement offered to a lot of things going on and we are lucky in the people, maybe those who lack one or two things— Labour Party that our regional office does run training experience, a bit of knowledge—to assist them in for people who have expressed an interest and want getting to the point where they are available for to be councillors. I think we have three or four selection? sessions in July and August for people who have Alan Wright: Yes. The process is that there will be an never been a councillor, never been to a meeting, to interview stage, as I said earlier, with a sub-committee try to give them more support on that side and get of the management board, which would also include them just over that stumbling block, whether it is the group leader and/or deputy. They will go through shyness or just the fear of asking that first daft the usual selection process: are there any skeletons in question. Once you go to a meeting, you see the cupboard that will come out and bite you in the everybody in the room asking daft questions and future, etc? What are your main interests? What could things like that, especially when they ask the daft you bring to the role of a councillor? What could you question you wanted to ask. I hope we are as friendly bring to the council? The selection is made from that. and as welcoming as we can be. It is not everybody’s As far as encouragement is concerned, we have a cup of tea, but we do try to make sure that the journey, fairly active membership in Sunderland and certainly especially the initial journey, is as supportive as it a very active women’s group in Sunderland and in the possibly can be. North East, which encourages a flow of women Geoff Pryke: I think anyone joining the Liberal coming through. In the last elections in 2012, we had Democrats in Sunderland is probably not doing it eight female candidates out of the 22 seats that we because they want to be a councillor. They are doing fought, so there is no shortage of females coming it because of national politics, so it is quite hard. If forward. I think through our executive committee as you want to be a councillor, you would not join the well we do encourage active participation. We Liberal Democrats, because you know you probably encourage people to get involved in the debates. We do not have a chance. inform them fully on matters that are going through Chair: On that happy note, we will pass on. the council—large issues, small issues, issues that concern the group only. They are encouraged to take part in the debate around those issues as well. I think Q161 Bill Esterson: I will resist commenting. that encourages people who would be half inclined, Councillor Reid on the last panel said, to paraphrase, maybe, to come forward anyway and stand, and it has he was not concerned about the fact that he was of the brought through a couple of younger members who main demographic that makes up councillors, as long have stood in recent elections for us. Our normal as everybody who approached him believed he wanted process of functioning does add that encouragement to take up issues on their behalf. Is he right not to to the membership base to come forward. have that concern or should there be greater efforts to Tom Wright: It is pretty similar for us. Once get more diverse representation as councillors? somebody is identified or has expressed an interest, Tom Wright: I think he is right and he is wrong. It the secretary of the local government committee—or always depends on the person. He is right we want I think it is now the local government panel—will good quality councillors. I do not want women send them some forms, basically to get their names councillors. I do not want that. I want good women and addresses, to identify that they are interested. councillors and I want good black or minority ethnic They will go through some sort of formal interview. I councillors, the same as I want good men. More and think for the last 15 years we have used outsiders— more over the last few years, certainly in Sunderland the opposite to the Conservative Party. We have used as it has evolved, it is how you work in your people from constituencies in Northumberland and community and the contacts you have, which are far Durham and Teesside to come in and interview them. more important than anything else. So what are you It is a bit about looking at what they have done in the doing in your ward and are you not just maintaining community, what they have done for the party and the contacts but working for them? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Ev 42 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke
I think that is very important, but I firmly believe that, so respectful. I do not think impressed is the right to be a good council, to be a good Parliament, to be a word, but they think it is an important role and they good committee, the bigger the variety of input, the respect the role of councillors and politicians. If you more information you have access to, the better the can get the leader or the mayor along, it is better than decision. In the Labour Party, back in the ’90s there “The X Factor”. It is a strange quirk of life, so how were lots of policies and things going on about do we get them and push them a bit further? A few equality and diversity. I started as chair of what we of us have campaigned and failed abysmally over the called Project 99, which was in 1997 but it was for the last 10 years. Do not get me wrong: we have had a year 1999, to put in place policies and things, because couple of people come forward and then they have Sunderland was 80% white, old male and 10% changed their minds. middle-aged male and 10% female. That was our aim, an aim I fully supported. It was my party’s policy and Q162 Bill Esterson: We have to move on, so perhaps it was also something I firmly believed in, because we can get back to the question to Mr Pryke. you get the benefit. If you go into a room full of estate Geoff Pryke: Can you remind me what the question agents, you will walk out with only estate agents’ was? opinion on anything. That might be right and it might be wrong, but you need, as I said earlier, that variety Q163 Bill Esterson: Councillor Reid was saying it of input for you to make a more informed and better did not concern him that he was from the main decision. demographic and that there were other groups that Our aim was to get 40% female back then. Sunderland were not represented, because they would always has always been hard in terms of the ethnic minorities, come to him. Is he right? and it is a lot harder, because we are not like some Geoff Pryke: I think I would agree with that. I think cities and some big urban areas. We always seem to it is more important that someone wants to be a potter around the 2% to 3% figure for ethnic councillor than the colour of their skin or their gender minorities. Therefore, our initial aim was to have 40% or whatever. It is nice if you get a good mix, but I female, and I am pleased to say this year we reached think the motivation to become a councillor is 43%. Well, we reached 42.785%, but I like to round probably more important than anything else. If we it up because 43% sounds better than 42%, but we did started having rules—so many per cent women, so reach 43%, which people back in the 1990s said many per cent this, that and the other—I do not think would be impossible. it would work. There have been some sea changes that have helped. Alan Wright: I agree with Councillor Wright on this If you look back four years ago, 40% of the issue. It would be a positive move if we could involve councillors in the Labour group were not here. There more people from ethnic minority groups in our were boundary changes—in 2004 for the local respective parties to come through and possibly stand authority and, in 2006–7, for the 2010 Parliamentary as candidates for the council elections. In our group, election—that came in and things like that. That in 2010–11 we had one candidate from the Asian helped some people to think about retiring, and community. I think about 4.5% of our membership obviously the changes in systems, such as from the is from the ethnic minority groups, so we are keen old silo committee-type thing, helped people to think, to engage. “I have done my bit; is it time?” So there have Along with Tom and a few other people in this room, probably been a few surges and so I am very pleased I attended an event down at the Bangladeshi with that. Community Centre earlier this year. The event was Regarding ethnic minorities, Sunderland is a strange held to try to explore why the people within the black city. We always seem to be behind that, only because and ethnic minority community do not engage so historically people coming into the country go to the much with local politics. I think the one message that areas where there are jobs, so Sunderland tends to be stuck in my mind that came back—we have chatted the last place a lot of these people go. But, strangely about this—was from the younger element: “You do enough, we have some very, very good ethnic not engage with us. Why should we engage with minority communities. We have a fantastic you?” and I think that is right. Bangladeshi mosque and community now. We have a In the Conservative association, we are a small, active wonderful Sikh temple and fantastic people down group, and we have been concentrating on elections there. These people are really active in their over the last few years. As Tom said, there are no communities and active in the whole community, but elections in Sunderland next year, so we are going to we have struggled to get them to take that step into use the time that that has given us, as a political party, politics. We have quite a number of them now who to direct our efforts towards recruitment. One of the are members of political parties, and in Sunderland, elements of that will be to meet with officials from over the last few years, we have set up the first Labour the Sunderland Bangladeshi Community Centre. Ms black and minority ethnic group, and we have one lad Sumati Bala, who is an equal opportunities consultant, on one of the panels at the moment, as we speak, for has agreed to come in and talk to us about how we the 2014 elections. could open ourselves up to be attractive to people A quirk is, when you go to the Sikh temple or the from ethnic minorities. We also have an invitation to mosque or the Bangladeshi Community Centre, or visit the International Community Organisation of even if you go to the Catholic church in one ward Sunderland, which I think is mainly Poles, of whom where we have a lot of Filipinos and a few Poles, there are about 6,000 in Sunderland and surrounding these people are so active in their community but also areas. They do make up quite a proportion of the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 43
9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke population, so we must be engaging with these people, especially when you need somebody to deliver leaflets and that is one of our next moves. and they turn up with a gang. Sunderland University As for women, within the association we have women was not affiliated to the NUS, and I am not sure if in all the senior positions within the party that is the reason why, but they are a strange organisation, such as deputy chair and membership organisation when it comes to politics. I can go to deputy chair, finance etc. Our sectors around the city Leeds University or Manchester University and talk have a high proportion of women running them. Then to all political parties and groups of students. It is a there are the groups. I have already said we have a lot more difficult with Sunderland University. very active women’s group, which fundraises and gets As well as having an increase in young people, we people interested and engaged. I think we are taking have a very good active Youth Parliament and each steps but, like Tom said, we are probably not as year it produces three or four stars who raise the successful as we should be, as Tom is with his party. profile for your things. I never miss them. I have to There is a lot more work to be done, but we have be nice because they are going to be leader of my taken the first step on that road this year. party in Sunderland in a few years’ time, but it is quite interesting that each year they manage to produce a Q164 Bill Esterson: You have talked about the couple of stars. minority communities. Are there other community We now have some active lesbian, gay, bisexual and groups that any of you look to recruit from? Perhaps transgender groups who we know. Sunderland, last Mr Wright again. year, I was very pleased to see, had its very first Pride Alan Wright: We have looked at younger members of Parade. Always we have been in the shadow of the population in Sunderland. Student groups is one, Newcastle for anything like that. One of my first and we have recruited recently four younger people, complaints as a councillor was that, in my first four three of them students, two of them female, which is years, I dealt with three cases of young lads who were good. Previous to me, some of my predecessors tried gay and who went to live in Newcastle. Do not ask us to get into the universities to recruit, but they were why; it was a quirk of my ward: lesbians felt actively discouraged from going to the freshers’ meets comfortable, supported and secure, but gay young lads and things like that and setting up stalls. That is still felt threatened. Maybe the old working men’s something that I am determined to explore. I have club culture created that pressure. There have been already talked to one of our younger members, who massive changes in that, where you can talk to these is here today, about getting into universities and people, and I hope—I think they do—that they feel recruiting, so that is something else we want to try to safer living in Sunderland. They had to work in expand now that we have a bit more time to devote Newcastle, which did have a gay village and the pubs to it. and clubs and the security and support built around it. Hopefully, these people now feel they do not have to Q165 Bill Esterson: Mr Pryke, do the Liberal travel. I do not have massive number of cases and it Democrats do anything? is not a scientific piece of evidence, but my evidence Geoff Pryke: Really we are more interested in is that they do, so even though we are being a bit attracting members than attracting possible negative about minority groups, there are some councillors, and we have been quite lucky: we have massive, massive pluses and positives out there. quite a good, diverse membership. We have ethnic minority people and women. We are trying to get Q166 Simon Danczuk: I am a bit concerned that some students, but have not been successful lately. politics in Sunderland is exceptionally polite. Some But we have a good cross-section, and I think we will longer than others, but we have all been in political take our possible candidates from our membership. parties for some considerable amount of time, and we Tom Wright: Can I just make a couple of points? One have all heard the stories about people being told that is I think we are in a better position now, not in where the local party is full so they cannot join, or selection we are but in the fact that city-wide over the last few meetings being packed out, or friends and family years there has been a change in the attitude of a lot being recruited to the local party so that they can of the ethnic and minority groups. It is not just their deselect somebody or get somebody selected and so own organisations that work together; we now have on and so forth. If you think more widely—not just in some city-wide groups where they meet and work terms of Sunderland; you must know your parties in together, and we are talking. As Alan said, we had a the North East and in other areas and things—are session about how these people got into politics, and there no shenanigans going on in terms of local there was a large group from the Philippines, selections and party politics at a local level? Bangladeshis, Pakistanis and South Africans. It was Tom Wright: If you think back to the 1990s, it has quite interesting and they are now working closer always been there and there will always be an element together. One thing about hard times and not a lot of of it. A good councillor knows that to stay a money is we all take that as a challenge. You have to councillor, whether you are the leader of the council take it as challenge, so groups are looking at where or a junior back bencher, your ward every four years they can work together on certain things and we have has to pick you. Hopefully, people are not daft enough a couple of international organisations. to forget that. I have met leaders in the past who have On Sunderland University, I find it very strange, forgotten that, and are leader of the council one week because we are lucky; we have had a bit of a surge of and the next week not a councillor. It is not just your young members in Sunderland Labour Party over the family and that; it is the fact that you have a last couple of years, which is quite refreshing, responsibility to the ward. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Ev 44 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke
I was listening this morning to people talking about we would have all women. It was party policy. It is opposition, and Robert Oliver only having eight and important how you put these things across, because it Colin Wakefield only having three. You do not. I have is no good bringing in a policy that is good if you are 72 opposition people, because whether I go to a going to alienate 40%, 50%, 60% of the people and Labour group or council, when I stand up and tell overnight they are going to not be active and things them I want £10 million for Pennywell, there are like that. You might think I would say this because I 61 Labour councillors who do not live in my ward. was secretary of the local government committee at Opposition might not be the right word, but whether the time, but I think we did get it right. The you have a large opposition or a small one, you still councillors knew we were not going to kick any of have to stand up and justify what you are doing, more them out the door and we did it naturally. It took so in these days. You have to justify what you are 10 years. spending money on, why you are spending, not just from the fact that the heavy pressures are financial. Q167 Simon Danczuk: So you managed it. Let me We have moral views and legal views and all sorts stop you there, Tom. Geoff, any horror stories that you of things, so there is lots of pressure on us and lots hear, not just in Sunderland but around the of opposition. North East? Do the Liberal Democrats have any Sunderland has had very robust scrutiny over the viciousness in there? years, and I am very proud of the history of our Geoff Pryke: We are quite a nice, placid bunch. We scrutiny. Do not think because I go to the scrutiny have felt in Sunderland that the Labour Party, in committee and there is one Tory and seven Labour particular, and the Tories to some extent as well, that I have a safe ride, because it certainly does not wanted to eliminate the Lib Dems. A few years ago, happen. Most councillors will look at a piece of work we had two or three councillors, and when it came and analyse it from the point of view of being a down to one councillor we lost any sort of—I will councillor first, a ward councillor second and then, give you an example. We used to use the committee maybe, a party member third. rooms in the council office just upstairs to have our The one good thing my party did, and I have to be local meetings, because it was handy for everyone to careful because it upsets a lot of people, is positive travel to. Once we were down to one councillor, we discrimination for women MPs and councillors. We had to pay for the use of the committee room at £20 have 10% women, but we gave it a lot of thought back a session and none of the other parties had to pay for in the late ’90s when we did Project 99. Back then, I it. So we felt we were being a bit victimised. We lost was local government secretary, so I was heavily our only councillor in the May elections, so we feel it involved and I was chairman of the project. You have is an uphill struggle now to get back into the system. got to be careful, because when you say, “We want more women,” you are also saying to your men, “We Q168 Simon Danczuk: Let me ask another question, want you out.” Not you personally, but that is it. If I and you touched upon this a little bit, Alan. It is a want 50% women in Parliament, which two of you question to all of you. Do you try to choose candidates four am I going to sack? There are two sides to to suit the ward? Ethnicity is not a massive issue in everything and we thought about it. You have a mass Sunderland, I understand that, but you might have a of expertise and experience in older councillors, and ward that is predominantly Catholic perhaps. In a you cannot afford to get rid of that overnight and University ward where all the students live, you might change overnight. We brought in a simple rule: I think pick a young candidate because you think they might we had 17 wards that had three male Labour be more likely to be elected in that particular ward. councillors in at the time, and the first vacancy had to Does that come into it at all in terms of choosing go to a woman. Most of the people in Sunderland candidates for each ward? Labour Party could live with that. There were still Alan Wright: Yes, but not to a great extent. That is some strong views anti: “We do not believe in positive mainly, I would guess, through accident. We have discrimination and women being fast-tracked and St Michael’s ward, which has a high proportion of making it easy,” but we did it. They still had to go students living within it. There are three through the full procedures to be a councillor, and long-established councillors, so there is no they still had to be interviewed and they still had to opportunity, nor would we want an opportunity, to go against other women on the night. But we just said, bring in a new, younger councillor. We have three very “The first time there is a vacancy in that ward,” and I good councillors there. But in the future, when a am pleased to say this year, 2012, in the last of those vacancy does occur, I think we will, yes, look at 17 a male councillor retired and we now have a tailoring a candidate to the type of elector within that woman in every ward. I am talking about from the ward. Yes, we would need to do that. Labour Party’s point of view. You have to be careful and you have to plan, but we Q169 Simon Danczuk: Tom, do you have anything were lucky. In 2006, when we were starting the on that in terms of matching the candidate to the campaign for the 2010 candidate and things like that, ward? Sunderland was all men and we had Sharon Hodgson Tom Wright: We do. There are 25 wards and normally who had two wards in Sunderland and the rest was you have a panel of 45 or 50 people. Of course, some Gateshead. I am Secretary of the CLP. We knew it wards will have a sitting councillor. We have had quite was party policy and we voted for all women. No a sea change, and approaching half the Labour group problem. There were a couple of people who were not were not here four years gone May. We have three happy, but the majority, a massive majority, voted that wards that are unique in Hendon, Millfield, and cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 45
9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke
Barnes, which is on the periphery, where the bulk of we had a list of approved candidates and the local our Asian friends and members live, so we have had wards picked and chose which ones and how many a couple of people come forward and the ward is they wanted to interview. That was open to interested in them. That is partly the fact that most manipulation, in my view, and, eventually, the party of us want to represent the ward we live in. I love nationally recognised that. I think they were forced representing Pennywell. I was born there; I know it into it from some case on the south coast. Anyway, really well. When people talk about the streets, I working with the regional parties and regional played marbles in every one of those gutters, so it is chairmen, the national party drew up a set of a lot easier, because as a kid I ran up and down those mandatory rules, which I outlined earlier, where you streets. As I say, when you play marbles in the street go through the process of drawing up an approved list, you go down very slowly and you notice all the nooks but then you must advertise vacancies to all the people and crannies and things. I could never be a good on that list and they can apply. This gives everybody councillor for Washington, the new town part, the opportunity to be at least interviewed for a seat in although I have made a lot of friends over there and a ward that they really want to stand in. Beyond that, things like that, because I do not feel for it the way I of course, it has to be up to the ward committee or do for this part of Sunderland and I do not know it the sector to choose the candidate that they want to and that culture. I think the wards unconsciously adopt go with, but it is transparent now and I think that that. We have a lot of councillors who do not live in is important. the ward—most of them do—but who have a connection with the ward somewhere along the line. Q173 Bob Blackman: That is obviously the process. That seems to come out in ward selection. What about encouraging people to stand for election Geoff Pryke: Basically, we try to get people who live and coming forward? in the ward to represent the ward. Alan Wright: In my short time as chairman, I cannot see any real change in anything they have done to Q170 Simon Danczuk: Finally, just very briefly, encourage people. I think it is very much left up to starting with you, Alan, why do some councillors local recruitment. We are encouraged, from time to choose not to stand for re-election? Some just do one time, to go on membership recruitment drives, one of term. In a few words, why do you think that is, Alan? which we are now starting the process of. That is a Alan Wright: There are several reasons. Just quickly, national initiative. One of the discussions at the I think people get tired of it eventually. It is hard meeting where we talked about this was on not only work. If you are a committed councillor, it is not a bringing in members but bringing in potential part-time job. That is a fact. Family issues: they are candidates to stand in local elections and look out for not quite councillors, but we had three potentially very the people you think will fit that bill. As you will good candidates who withdrew this year for family appreciate, that is very difficult to do ahead of the reasons. I think it is a mix. I think people retire from selection process proper. That is about it. I think there it as part of the natural function and other people have is active encouragement now to go out and find people to withdraw for family reasons. I think that is the who will become active members and then go on from main one. there and become potential candidates, but beyond that, not a great deal. Q171 Simon Danczuk: In a few words, Tom, why Tom Wright: The regional party is either very good or do you think they do not stand for re-election? very bad, depending on if they agreed with the last Tom Wright: More or less the same. We have had the thing I said to them. It is very hard in the parties. As odd one because of job commitments, but mostly I CLP secretary, when you go to a meeting on Friday think it is when they come in for a four-year term and night there will be 90 barrack-room lawyers waiting they realise what it entails. It is not just the pressures to highlight every mistake I have made in the last on your family; it is pressures on you as a human month, and not one of them is going to sing praises being, as an individual, what you have to do, and you for the things I have done. Politics brings out strange realise it is not for you. I would say in the last 10 years quirks and things. we have had half a dozen councillors who have made The regional party does offer some good training and that decision, and all respect to them, because some support, especially for new councillors or potential people might say, “Well, I will hang on.” I think that councillors, but one quirk I have with the Labour is the only real reason that I can think of, apart from, Party is, when you join the Labour Party, you join the obviously, the electorate. rule book. Do the Conservatives say that? It is true. If Geoff Pryke: We are rarely in that position, but we you join any organisation, if you join a working men’s have had people drop out because of, mainly, work club or a sports club, you have signed up to it. I agree commitments. with that, but a personal dislike with me is, when we have a mail shot, I have come across the odd person Q172 Bob Blackman: Thinking of the national and who has joined the Labour Party just so they can be a regional parties, how much are they a help or a councillor. I like them to have been in the party a hindrance in your process of selection and couple of years. I like them to have at least encouraging people to stand? Alan, do you want to campaigned and delivered leaflets at one election. start? This is a personal thing of mine; it is not a Labour Alan Wright: I can do. Personally, I think they have Party policy. I have chaired shortlisting and selection been a help of late. We had a system of selecting meetings where the person who has won as the councillors that I thought was slightly flawed, in that candidate has not been in the Labour Party long cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Ev 46 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke enough to vote, because you have to be in the party provide money for their own re-election campaigns? six months to vote at a shortlisting and they have been How does that work? in two or three months, although they would not have Alan Wright: With the Conservatives in Sunderland, let them vote anyway. Some of them have turned out we fund the campaigns from the local association. We to be good, but some of them have turned out, I have income that we use to do that, which gives all personally believe, to be disasters. the candidates a healthy budget to work with, one that All I am saying is, if they are in the party a couple of over the years people have found they can work with years, at least you can observe them and get to know at that level. We do allow the candidate, if he wants them, because I could get my son to join the Tory to top up his annual budget—not the election Party so I could get copies of all of Alan’s minutes. expenses, but his annual budget—to put in extra and There are 1,000 reasons to join a political party, but a fund it himself, fair enough. We have no problem with big safety valve for me is the fact that, whether you that, but generally we can fund it within the local have been in the party two minutes or 20 years, when association. you are on the panel, it is the wards that select. They know more about what is going on with the person, and Mrs Smith in the front row will stand up and say, Q176 Bob Blackman: There is no expectation on “Where have you been? Why didn’t you help us at the candidates to provide funding? last election?” and things like that. These things do Alan Wright: No. come out. You do get some people who come forward, and we want to encourage people; I am not saying Q177 Bob Blackman: Right, okay. Tom? you should not. My personal view is, let us see what Tom Wright: Not for candidates and certainly not with you do at next year’s election and the year after, and new candidates, but for most elections the Labour maybe one day you will be leader of the council, councillors will give £100 each towards the election. maybe one day you will be an MP. We do get some money. Technically, the CLPs run the It is just a big quirk of mine. I like to know what elections, but the Labour Group will fund some they have done in the community, not politics, not the money. We will look for donations. Some wards have council. I like to say, “Have you done something in money. Some wards do fundraising events all year your community and have you done something for my round and have that money, but we would expect each party?” because those are the things you are joining ward to put forward £300, and I think for the last up to. 10 years we have said £100 per Labour councillor for Geoff Pryke: We get a lot of help for national and those wards with only one or two Labour councillors. regional party general elections and European elections, but not very much for local council Q178 Bob Blackman: Just to be clear, a candidate elections. I think if we asked for it, the help would be coming in fresh would not be expected to contribute there, but we tend not to ask for it. We do not get any anything at all apart from, presumably, attending financial help. fundraising events and helping to raise money? Tom Wright: Yes. Q174 Bob Blackman: That is the next thing I am coming on to. One of the barriers that has been identified is that we are asking councillors to serve Q179 Bob Blackman: But a sitting councillor would part of the time and some have to virtually work full be expected to contribute something towards their time. Do you think an increase in remuneration would re-election campaign. attract more people, better people, in terms of Tom Wright: Yes. allowances for councillors, or would it be attracting the wrong sort of people, because they might want to Q180 Bob Blackman: Has that been an issue or do it for the money instead of the good of serving concern for people? their community? Tom Wright: No. Like a lot of things, it is amazing Alan Wright: I think there is probably a danger that how it just becomes the culture and people have you would attract the wrong person if you did boost accepted it. When new ones have come in, they have the allowances up to some significant level. As I said said, “So, basically, when you are up, instead of earlier, if you are a committed councillor, it is a worrying about paying for your re-election, you know full-time job and you do need an allowance. I am from your two ward colleagues have given £100 as well,” the school that thinks we should not be looking at so really you are paying £300 over the four years for allowances at this particular time. It is the wrong time your election. to be looking at adjusting allowances. Potentially you would not attract a better candidate because of the allowances. I know when I first stood I did not know Q181 Bob Blackman: Geoff? allowances were paid as a flat allowance, to be honest. Geoff Pryke: Yes, it is our local party that does it. We I certainly did not know what it was and so that was have a fundraising system and we use those funds for not the attraction. I just wanted to put something back. printing leaflets and we do not do much of that.
Q175 Bob Blackman: Elections cost money—they Q182 Bob Blackman: So candidates are not required are a big cost. Do you ask candidates to contribute to provide any funding? towards the cost of those elections or is it funded by Geoff Pryke: They are not required. They will pay the central party? Are sitting councillors asked to their own expenses and things like that. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 13:56] Job: 023547 Unit: PG02 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o002_db_120709 - Corrected Transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 47
9 July 2012 Alan Wright, Councillor Tom Wright and Geoff Pryke
Q183 Bob Blackman: Their own expenses, but what Chair: Thank you, all three of you, for coming to about, say, production of leaflets and so on? You do give evidence at our final session today. Thank you not expect them to contribute towards that? very much indeed for that. We appreciate it. Thanks Geoff Pryke: No. Leaflets we will pay for out of our once again to Sunderland City Council for their party funds. organisation of this morning’s activities and also for the plans they have for us this afternoon as well. This Q184 Bob Blackman: On the other issue of is a chance to put that officially on the record. remuneration of councillors from their allowances, do Tom Wright: Thank you for coming to Sunderland. you think there is an issue about the amount that is We look forward to seeing you and your colleagues paid? again. Geoff Pryke: No, I agree with the other two; if you put it up too much, you will attract the wrong sort of person. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SE] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Ev 48 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
Wednesday 17 October 2012
Members present: Mr Clive Betts (Chair)
Bob Blackman David Heyes Simon Danczuk James Morris Bill Esterson Mark Pawsey ______
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Leader, Hertfordshire County Council, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Leader of the Opposition, Hertfordshire County Council, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon, Executive Member for Adult Social Care, Leeds City Council, and Councillor Stewart Golton, Leader of the Liberal Democrat Group, Leeds City Council, gave evidence.
Q185 Chair: Welcome to all this afternoon to this to vote things through remotely and then to explain, evidence session on councillors and the community. It to someone who should be an activist within the is our third evidence session. You are all welcome. community, a facility to the community, someone who Can I begin by apologising for the delay in starting? has access to some of the levers of power—in Occasionally, inconvenient things like votes do get in Hertfordshire terms, a chunk of money—and can help the way of other business, but that is the reason this communities to respond to their problems as they afternoon. I cannot promise you we will not have perceive them to be. This is why, personally, I do not another vote during the proceedings. I hope we will like the term “community leadership” and things like not, but I cannot promise that we will not. If we do this; it is far more a brokerage and activist role. That and the bell goes, we will just have to disappear and is the role that I think all elected representatives, if I come back and rejoin you. For the sake of our records, dare say so, but certainly councillors ought to be could you introduce yourselves? Just say who you are fulfilling in their communities and we are looking to and the organisation you are representing. develop that. We can go into the detail of that if you Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I am Councillor Stephen Giles- wish. In terms of the readiness and the skills of current Medhurst. I am leader of the opposition for the Liberal members to do it, some of them are very much up for Democratic Group on Hertfordshire County Council. it, but some of them it passes by entirely. Cllr Gordon: Robert Gordon, Leader of Hertfordshire County Council. Q187 Chair: You are not going to name names on Cllr Golton: Stewart Golton; I lead the Liberal this occasion? Democrat Group on Leeds City Council. Cllr Gordon: Not with my opposition leader sitting Cllr Yeadon: I am Councillor Lucinda Yeadon. I am next to me. That will inevitably be the case, but there the executive board member for adult social care in are some who have been members for a long time Leeds City Council. who find this—. We are only partway down this route. You cannot turn on a light switch and change all those Q186 Chair: You are all very welcome. You have behaviours and expectations overnight, so this is very both put submissions in as councils—interesting much a work in progress. Some find this a much more submissions—and you were talking particularly about fulfilling and interesting front-line role, particularly the changing way in which local government operates for those who cannot hold major office within the and the work of councillors within local government. cabinet system. Why do you think the change is necessary in terms of how councils operate? Do you think that the Cllr Golton: I will speak as an opposition member. I councillors that you have—many of whom probably think there is a general understanding that there is a came on in past times, when things were slightly need to change because councils need to change, so different—are now really up to doing the job that is of course the councillors within them need to respond required of them? Who would like to start? differently. We know that there is not going to be the Cllr Gordon: The way you posed that question, same level of funding as there always has been in Chairman, in terms of why change is necessary, I local authorities, and also that the way that we are perhaps would not address it that way. To my mind, able to deliver services to our communities will be if we are talking about the role of individual members less about being responsible for services we directly in their communities rather than the council deliver and more about being able to facilitate corporately, it is about re-establishing the relationship partnerships to create solutions that, in many cases, with their communities; recognising that people are will be bespoke to individual communities. I would more informed these days and wish to participate suggest it is a far more finessed role, but it is one more and to take greater control over their own lives where it is not just the individual councillors that will and their communities; and creating a means by which have to adapt to that; it is also incumbent upon those that element of power could be returned to people. In in Westminster to change the way they view local doing so, the role of the councillor changes—maybe government to enable that innovation to occur and be it returns to what it once was, I do not know. It a little bit less restrictive in terms of their perspective changes from a delegate that goes off to the town hall on what should be happening. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 49
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton
Q188 Chair: I look to Councillor Yeadon, following been and should be the advocates of the community on from your perspective of Leeds, to explain to us they represent. What has clearly changed in that what the term “civic enterprise” means, taken from time—and Bob Blackman is indicating this in respect the Commission on the Future of Local Government, of Brent; I used to be on Harrow Council while he was which was very much a Leeds initiative. on Brent Council—is the councils themselves. Local Cllr Yeadon: Yes, it was very much led by Leeds. I government has changed and councils have to adapt think the Commission certainly wanted to look at the to those changes. There has been outsourcing. There role of local government for the future. Local has been the sale of council houses, so it is no longer government has always been changing. This is not dealing with the Housing Department but dealing with new. The environment that we are in now is so the community housing trust. That has become more different from the previous years, particularly because difficult for some members. of the cuts that have impacted on local government Now, in terms of the localism we have in and local councils. The change is merely quicker than Hertfordshire, it is clearly different to what you have it has been in the past and more dramatic. elsewhere. I think localism for each community will Civic enterprise is about looking at re-establishing the vary and that is where I may agree with Robert. We relationship between the public sector, the private need to vary that element of community localism. I sector and the third sector and trying to re-establish even think in an area like Hertfordshire, with a what our role in the future will be. As Stewart says, population of 1 million, that you necessarily cannot the way that local councils are funded and our role have one fit for the whole of the area. We have urban will probably no longer be as a major deliverer of areas and we have rural areas. You have localism with services because we are not able to do that, but I still just one member involved in an urban area, but their think we have a very important role in shaping what those services are and being a catalyst to help ensure decisions in one urban area will affect their that the services we need are reaching the people who neighbouring members. I represent Central Watford, need them most. We cannot do that on our own, so for instance: when I make a decision in my division, civic enterprise is about how local authorities can it will affect other parts of Watford, and vice versa. I become more enterprising, how business and private think you have to have cohesive units where localism organisations can become more civic minded, and works, not just say it is all delegated to one individual how communities can become more engaged. I see member to make that decision. the role of local government as being just as important or probably more important in the future, but very Q190 Bill Esterson: Stephen, you have just used the different. We need to be able to have locally elected word “advocates”. To what extent is your role as a members who can adapt and be able to adapt to that community leader? change. I think very much we have members who Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It is very much about involving have been on the council for, in some cases, 50 years oneself with the community residents’ associations, who are able to do that, but we also need to have local community groups. In smaller numbers, I go to an members who are representative of the people that elderly residents’ home on a quarterly basis: they they represent. As you probably know, the average would not come to surgeries even if I held surgeries— age of a local councillor is 60—I have about 30 years I no longer believe surgeries are of value. I go to them to go before I meet that average—and 31% of local and seek their views, talk about what is going on councillors are women, so we still have a long way within the town and within Hertfordshire, and take to go before we are representative of the people we their issues back. Whether it be issues in terms of represent. We just need to ensure that we encourage policing—I have a quarterly meeting with the local new, well placed people to come forward into those police along with my borough council colleagues—or roles. something else, it is about advocating what needs to be done, and this is where things have moved on. It Q189 Chair: Councillor Giles-Medhurst, is is getting those leg-ins, so to speak, with the various Hertfordshire County Council’s vision of localism groups that exist. No longer is it that the councils subscribed to by opposition members as well? make a decision on everything and the councillor is Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It is to some extent, in terms of your representative. Yes, the councillor is your some of the routes that have been adapted in the locality budget and more recently the highways representative but no longer do we have the control locality budget; but on some other aspects, Robert and over the housing association—it has been delegated. I disagree, and indeed all opposition members There has been outsourcing. The same will occur with disagree. There has been recently an abolition of what the police and the police authority elections. We will have been effectively local area committees on have a police commissioner in Hertfordshire by the highways issues. That is an area we have disagreed middle of November, so it will be engaging direct, on. The administration has a different view and a whereas before there were appointed representatives different fundamental view of how localism moves from the county council on the police commission that forward. we could question at county hall meetings. That will Turning to your earlier question, having been a no longer be the case; there will be a new mechanism, councillor for 32 years—I was elected at 21 so I came so we will have to move with those times. That to in very young, and I have aged with the rest of the some extent makes it more difficult and can population in that sense. I believe councillors have potentially make it far more time consuming. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Ev 50 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton
Q191 Bill Esterson: Robert, do you have a different facilitate discussion and to support local people to find view of community leadership? solutions to some of the issues in their areas. Gone are Cllr Gordon: I must say I do not like the term the days when local elected members are the pillars of “community leadership” in the front-line role of society, that you come to a meeting and your word is councillors, because I think the role there is far it. We have very different hats that we need to be greater—Stephen described it well. I do not know wearing and lots of different roles to fill. It would be even whether you would use the term “leadership”. It short-sighted of us just to say we only have one role is brokerage; it is engagement; it is facilitation; it is within the communities that we represent. We have entrepreneurial—it is all that sort of stuff. I think there various different roles and they have changed a lot are at least two different sets of decisions that we are from the traditional local authority community involved in. There is a stack of stuff that has to be relationship. I am not sure if I answered your dealt with through normal representative democratic question, though. processes—major budget decisions, children’s safeguarding, the fire service. All sorts of things need Q194 Bill Esterson: That is fine. Do you think that to be taken at a fairly high level and need to be taken GPs, schools, businesses and other organisations by us in our representative roles. What interests me welcome the involvement of councillors? more is far more the relationship of front-line Cllr Yeadon: I would hope so, because if they do not councillors with their communities. As I say, I welcome our input, then we have a bit of trouble certainly do not see that as a leadership role. ahead. I am a local governor, Stewart and I sit on the health and wellbeing board with local GPs. We have Q192 Bill Esterson: What is the difference between to work with those organisations and it is right: we that and what you describe in your written submission have a mandate and we are there to represent the as a role of facilitating, mediating and advocacy? people who elected us and to work to support those Cllr Gordon: Yes, all of that. We are doing two things. other organisations in our city and in our wards and Where the decision is local enough and specific our communities. The local primary school, where I enough that it can be substantially taken by and am a governor, absolutely welcomes my relationship influenced by people in their communities, we operate with them, as does the local GP, particularly when we in that brokerage sense. Where it has to be taken at a are trying to find solutions to some of the major higher level because of its scale and significance, then ingrained problems that we have in our local yes, you are the eyes and ears and voice of the communities that we cannot solve on our own. If we communities. There you are advocating for your are not working with them, how are we going to solve community in the councils beyond the community those problems? itself. As I say, my interest—obviously when you call for evidence you can only touch on some of it within Q195 Bill Esterson: Stewart, you are nodding a lot. the 4,000 words—is in that non-institutional role. I am Cllr Golton: Yes. Whether you are in administration not arguing with colleagues here, but certainly what or whether you are in opposition, I think the main we heard from Leeds is very much institutional role of your role as a leader as a local council is in relationships. I am interested in the power shift back challenging. Whether that be challenges in relation to to people from whom that power comes. We have decisions that are taken by the ruling administration done it through social care with personalisation; that affect your community, or challenge in terms of through localism we can do the same thing for the responses you are getting from officers that you community-based things. do not feel are appropriate to enable your community to achieve its potential—that is where you come in. Q193 Bill Esterson: I am sure we will come back to Between us, we have had an example of that and that. Lucinda, as democratically elected because of the budgetary issues we recently closed a representatives, how is that different from the role of whole lot of residential homes in the city— other community activists? [Interruption.] Cllr Yeadon: First of all, it depends what your definition of leadership is. I think there are very Cllr Yeadon: Saved by the bell. different ways you can lead people or be part of a Chair: We are going to have to suspend, I am afraid, community. If you are talking about community for the vote. leadership, there will be some times that elected Committee suspended for a Division in the House. members will be in a position that is very different from local activists. For example, if you look at the Q196 James Morris: Talking about the role of local riots last year, in Leeds we did not have any riots but councillors, I think one of the issues is that a lot of we did have local elected members going out on the local councillors who are not in cabinet positions streets with the police and with community leaders, often feel quite disempowered. We can talk about i.e. representatives from the mosque and other well community leadership as much as we want, but when known community groups, talking to people to defuse it comes to effectively being able to determine what tension on the streets. I think that their taking that role happens in their wards in terms of money or played a huge part in the fact that we did not have any engagement, there is little scope. I know that each of riots in Leeds. Now, I would say that was community you have taken initiatives to try to devolve power to leadership and it was a very certain type of leadership. individual councillors. I am quite interested to hear But you also have to be able to have the skills to more about the area committees that you set up, cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 51
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton
Councillor Yeadon. How effective have they been in recognise that there are people who live in deprived terms of devolving responsibilities to councillors? areas who probably do not know how to access some Cllr Yeadon: I think they have been effective. It is a of this. We cannot forget that. Just because their issues work in progress still. We have come a long way; are not being vocalised at a particular public meeting there is further we can go. I think you are right; does not mean that their issues are not important, and backbench councillors probably do feel sometimes they may be even more crucial. disenfranchised if you compare their role now to what it was under a committee system. Q202 James Morris: Councillor Golton, what is your experience of the area committees? You were Q197 James Morris: Do you get a lot of people shaking your head and nodding. participating in the area committees? Cllr Golton: I am lucky because originally I was a Cllr Yeadon: Absolutely. councillor in the area of Leeds Inner North West, which is a very articulate area. It is the place where Q198 James Morris: Residents? all the college lecturers live and it is an area of high Cllr Yeadon: I think it depends. We have 10 area studentification, which meant that there were a lot of committees in the city. They are all very different in people getting agitated about people urinating in their how they engage. garden and the rubbish that happened in the area. It was a very effective local body but it was also in a Q199 James Morris: Are they based on very tight urban area, so you could actually get to configurations of particular wards? meetings whether they were in one ward or another. Cllr Yeadon: Yes. We have some area committees that The wards in Leeds are very large and area are larger than others. It depends on how the ward committees necessarily have to join some wards boundaries fall. The area committee that I sit on, together. The area committee that I now cover is a which is the Inner North West, has quite a significant very large swathe of the southern edge of the city, public attendance. We have an open forum at the which takes in independent towns and villages that beginning: the public come; they bring us deputations, have all been lumped together into an area committee. as they would to full council, and they are very At the last area committee there was not one member engaged with it. of the public there. The only audience were council officers. The majority of the agenda is dominated by Q200 James Morris: Does it tend to be groups of council business, whereby the executive wishes to residents who have particular issues that they want to have its business rubberstamped by local be vocal about, whether it is a school closure or an representatives to say it has gone through the area issue in the community? committee system. It becomes, at its worst, a glorified Cllr Yeadon: We have people who regularly attend grants-making body for the area budget that you have. them. Then, you will have people who are motivated There has been some very progressive employment of by a particular issue to come for a particular reason. individuals to help a particular issue come along. In The problem we are always going to have is that it is areas like Leeds North West, in my own area, it is always going to be those people who know how the primarily about making sure that each area gets its bit system works and will come to the meetings and of the capital pot for certain community groups to use. represent their views, which is fine, but I think we also need to remember there is a group of people in Q203 James Morris: Is there a limited time for the society who do not know how the council works and public to speak in this meeting? who actually are trying to work three jobs to keep Cllr Golton: There is no formal time for the public in food on the table and are going to struggle to attend this meeting. area committees to make their views known. Q204 James Morris: There is no time; right. Is that Q201 James Morris: Do you feel that sometimes a deliberate decision? creates an issue? In terms of public perception of area Cllr Golton: If I remember rightly the original committees, one of the things that I have noticed in discussion was to do with what was allowed within my patch with area committees is that there is a bit of the constitution. If it is a formal council meeting— a gap between what residents are expecting is going because councillors say, “Up with this we will not to happen at an area committee meeting and what put”—you have a specific section before the formal actually does happen. Is that part of your experience? start of the meeting for community concerns, where Because it is kind of the council doing its business in the public can get involved, or you just basically public and the public actually feel as though it is a ignore the rule book and let them come on board. That slightly different forum. Is that a mismatch that you— is where you show discretion as a local representative. Cllr Yeadon: I think the difference with the area Unfortunately, I have not had the luxury of having committee that I sit on—I cannot speak for all the area members of the public wanting to speak at my local committees of Leeds—is that the public do contribute area committee, which makes it quite a sad place to to the discussion, which I think is quite unusual. We go to, I have to say, as a local politician. In do have powers as an area committee and we have circumstances like that you wish to make sure that in budgets and, therefore, there are real decisions rather your own ward those people who need supporting are than just tokenistic “having a meeting in the local aware of how an area committee works. It would help, community”. While that is very important, we must of course, if they did meet at a time when the public cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Ev 52 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton can get to them. The Inner North West meets at 7.00 have. If we had £500 or £2,000, or whatever it is, it in the evening, which is not convenient for council could be dealt with,” now the local member is able to officers but they have to put up with it, whereas my say, “Yes, I am persuaded by that. I can deliver on own meets at 4.00 in the afternoon. that. Let’s go ahead and do it.” It does not have to come back to me. As chairman of cabinet and leader Q205 James Morris: Councillors Gordon and Giles- of the council with £7.7 million, I have said, “I do not Medhurst, you have made play of your devolved care how that is spent now. Someone else can spend budgets. Tell me a little bit more about how successful that.” That I think is a very marked difference. We they have been and some of the constraints. tried to change the mindset from people saying, “What Cllr Gordon: Gladly. Can I just pick up on what we are they going to do about it?” when there was a have just heard, because Stephen and I take a different problem to them saying instead, “What are we going view, as he has already alluded to, about local to do about it?” and “What role can my councillor committees or a particular type of local committee? play in helping deliver that?” Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Depends on type, yes. Cllr Gordon: Yes, that is right. My view is quite clear Q208 James Morris: In terms of determining how that I do not want to devolve to intermediate tiers of this money is going to be spent, do you have an the same self-important people sitting around the established process by which the individual councillor table. We know that very few people turn up to them. needs to consult within the ward? We know it is difficult to engage for all the reasons Cllr Gordon: No. that we have just heard. I do not know what your population base is for those committees in Leeds, but Q209 James Morris: Or can the councillor just say, it must be quite large. Our view—my view and my “I am going to repair this pothole in my road that has administration’s view—has been far more that the most of my voters on it.”? individual councillors are already there representing Cllr Gordon: We are developing the processes around manageable sizes of groups of communities, about it. The expectation is that colleagues will consult. 12,000 electors on average. They should be, and must Certainly, so far as highway stuff is concerned, the be, encouraged to engage with residents’ associations, protocol expects them to consult with councillors and with community and voluntary groups, to walk the other tiers, with residents’ associations and other streets with their residents, and that is how that groups, but essentially to take the pulse. Ultimately, engagement takes place. We do not want residents to as for all of us who stand and fall by the ballot box, feel that they have to go to a committee to be a the decision is made and if we make the wrong one— supplicant saying, “We have a problem. Will you sort if it potentially is an unlawful decision—we have this out for us?” We want them to say, “We have a mechanisms that would prevent that, so we do not problem. What can we do about it? Hey, you are the have councillors who are gold-plating the pavement local councillor. You are part of this mix; you have outside their house and ignoring everybody else. some contacts”. Because at law the decision is actually taken by an officer, not by the member, but thus far a member’s Q206 James Morris: Don’t area committees have a recommendation has never been overturned. It is very role in shaping a local community identity? Isn’t that much for their local judgment, providing it is lawful. one of the functions? So far as the highway stuff is concerned, there are Cllr Gordon: I think not. Stephen is agitating to get limits. It has to be rational within our asset in. I think partly it is also to do with the two-tier management system and things of that nature, but arrangements that we have in Hertfordshire, where there is never enough money. If it is local work and I there is everywhere a more local district council, but could afford to do that or that but I cannot do both, to more particularly in half of the area there is also a be guided by the community seems to be the way first-tier council and a town or parish council. If I can forward. I do not think the committee-based system is come back to answer the question that you asked me the way to do it, Stephen and I disagree about this, rather than the one that I gave— certainly as part of what we are trying to do at the moment, which is to change fundamentally that Q207 James Morris: I apologise; I gave a relationship between people and their local councillor. supplementary to a question that I have not asked. They have an intermediate committee and we have all Cllr Gordon: No, my apology; I was answering the seen them where you say very few people turn up, question you did not ask me. Now let me move on to they find it difficult to access them, difficult to the question you did ask. Having made that point influence them, and they are forced to become a about the significance of the local front-line councillor supplicant. in his brokerage facilitating sense, the fact that he has access to money helps. It helps in terms of visibility Q210 James Morris: I am interested to hear about and it certainly helps in being able to deliver. Of the this fundamental disagreement. £100,000 each of my front-line councillors has, Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I think Robert has perhaps £10,000 is for anything—subject to the law—and misrepresented me in terms of having a disagreement £90,000 is for local highways issues. When there is a here. In terms of having a delegated committee of all local issue and the community in touch with the the council decisions to an area committee, I have to councillor is saying, “This is something that is getting say I would agree with Robert. I do not think that is up our nose. This is the solution we would like to workable or practical. In terms of having real cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 53
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton delegation in terms of where residents come along, residents are going to be interested in. Now, if there present petitions on highways issues, have them were, I think clearly you would have residents come discussed by the local members both at the borough up and turn up about those particular potential level or district level and the county councillors, that changes. is what has been abolished and that is where I disagree with Robert. Having a sub-committee of the county Q211 Bob Blackman: You have all described the fact council with all the decisions that would go to county that councils and councillors are changing and that council or the cabinet discussed in front of maybe one you have very different levels of experience and resident is pointless. I would agree with Robert on expertise. If new people are coming forward, what are that one. the ideal characteristics that they will have in order to Cllr Gordon: They now submit to their elected become a councillor? Who wants to go first? representative, not a panel of elected representatives, Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Being able to manage their sometimes not involving their local one at all, and emails and the expectation of residents. As soon as where potentially the local view can be overruled by they have sent you an email, they expect a reply back people from outside the area. with an answer and the date that X pothole will be Cllr Giles-Medhurst: You sat on one of the panels fixed because you have the money to fix it. It does not with me that I chaired and that was never the case, as happen like that. It is actually managing expectations. you know, Robert. In terms of neighbourhood When I first became a councillor, you would maybe engagement, which is what you were talking about, get one or two letters a week, if that—maybe one or James, perhaps oddly I am also a parish councillor two letters a month. Now you get 10 or 20 emails a and a district councillor and I chair an area forum in day if you are publishing your email address, and the district area that I do not represent on the county most councillors should be because they should be council. I represent a completely different area. accessible. There is huge expectation from members We also have within the area county council of the public that you know how to solve things. Now, neighbourhood forums, which are organised by the some of that may well be going back to residents and borough council and the borough councillors who I saying, “Well, actually, you need to use the highways have a relationship with. There are six in my division, fault reporting system,” which we have in so we have regular neighbourhood forums. These are Hertfordshire electronically—pointing out that there issues that the residents themselves raise. For instance, are mechanisms to do this yourself and you do not we have a contentious issue, not necessarily politically have to come to the elected member. but an issue for residents, about a proxy rail link in the area. We had a neighbourhood forum to discuss Q212 Bob Blackman: Okay, so ability to manage that and how residents may wish to put their point of emails, that is the most important thing as far as you view to an inquiry. are concerned? Coming back to the questions you were asking, that I Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It is ability to manage and also see as very much helping the residents to put their the ability to manage time and, depending on what case and lead them in terms of advocacy: “These are type of authority you are on, it is also managing the sort of things you perhaps should be saying to expectation. The county council meets during the day. the inspector if you are going to present this sort of I was lucky enough to have a particular career path evidence.” That, I think, is a role for councillors and and job that allowed me to go to daytime meetings. I that is the way you engage with those residents. I have since taken early retirement freeing me up think that mechanism works where we have it. effectively full-time, but actually 61% of Ironically, these are not organised by the county Hertfordshire county councillors are over 60. That council; they are organised by the district councils. It replicates itself elsewhere. Evening meetings is very important that the county member, or whatever obviously allow members to have full-time jobs, or at level tier of government you are, is engaged with the least part-time jobs. It does vary with the type of other representatives along the line to see what authority. You have to be able to manage your time mechanisms exist there. The neighbourhood forum at and expectations. Watford does have a small budget. Again, local councils can give out little stipends to community Q213 Bob Blackman: Robert, do you have a view groups. The area forum I chair encompasses a whole on that? parish area, and although items are regularly on there Cllr Gordon: Time certainly is the case, and I think like the police report where police come along and some papers we saw suggested that someone thought give a report about local crime issues, they are set on that the average councillor did 35 hours a week. It the agenda. The residents welcome that. You talk seems a bit over the top to me, but it is still a full about attendance at these meetings. At the meetings couple of days in bits all round the place; so, a that I have gone to, and the meetings that I represent significant amount of time, inconsistent with normal on the county council or for that particular district, the full-time employment unless you are in one of those attendance has varied between 20 and 200 depending protected jobs that gives you all of that time off. Time upon the issue. To make these things relevant to is important. people to come along, you have to have things that Really being anchored in the community is essential, they themselves want to discuss. It is no good putting because it is a community role first and foremost. We on the county council’s library service change of all have leadership positions of various types, but we opening hours if there is no library in that area that are all first and foremost a front-line councillor, and cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Ev 54 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton at the whim of the electorate we could end up back one of those, as Robert well knows, and I will keep there, so being anchored in the community is hugely challenging those decisions if I think they are wrong. important; also, the ability to deal with modern You do not want someone who is going to get elected technology, absolutely. and accept everything that is going to be told to them I come back to my hobbyhorse, which is about those by officers or, for that matter, other parties in terms of softer skills: the brokerage skills, the facilitation, and the wider thing. They have to challenge. the ability to talk to people and bring people together. Even though sometimes in percentage terms our Q217 Bob Blackman: We will come back to that in mandate might be a little bit ropey, we have the a minute, I suspect. The average councillor is white, mandate through the ballot box. We have a particular 60 and male. Is that a problem, Lucinda? Does it status to go to a whole range of public and private and matter if people who are from the black or minority voluntary agencies and say, “My community is fussed ethnic community or women are not represented on about this. If you could come and help with this, you councils? can come and help with that, and you can bring this Cllr Yeadon: I think it does matter. We have to and I can put a few bob in out of my locality budget,” question, first of all, why people from those groups and collectively we can deliver what the community are not represented, and that throws up further wants. That is very different from the old-style, “I will questions about whether it is the political system and go to the town hall, the county hall, every now and how parties operate or whether it is because the world then and put my hand up when the whip tells me to.” that we operate in is not accessible to those people. I was elected when I was 27. I was the youngest woman Q214 Bob Blackman: Stewart? on the council. I have just been re-elected, so I have Cllr Golton: Once you have bottomed all those been there four years. I am still the youngest woman qualities, one of the things you should have is an on the council, although there are young men on the enquiring mind. The Liberal Democrats used to say council. I am also disabled, so, other than the fact that that a councillor should be a cabinet member for their I am white, I do not tick any of the stereotypes. I go ward, but I think more importantly a councillor should to meetings and people assume that I am the secretary be a scrutineer for their ward. They need to be or that I am my own PA. I regularly have people say questioning why things are delivered in the way that to me, “You are too young to be a councillor”. Now, they are delivered. They need to enquire why this whether they would say that to a man who was the thing has not happened in their community. They need same age as me I am not actually sure. If we do not to be able to ask questions of their own constituents represent the communities that we serve, how do we to say, “Why do you think this is an important issue?” ensure that we are making decisions that are right for those people in those communities? I do think it is Q215 Bob Blackman: So, an enquiring mind? important. We want to get to a stage where we have Cllr Golton: Information-gathering is key because if 50% women in the Labour group in Leeds. I do not you do not, then you cannot change anything, can think that is a negative aspiration. That is something you? As we have said, communities are feeling under positive that we should reach for, but we also need to increasing pressure in terms of the budgets being cut make sure that other groups are represented also. It centrally and, therefore, having a run-on effect in your does not mean that if you are a man you cannot own area. That is why we need to find out why things represent women’s issues, but we need to be able to cost the way they do so that you can then say, “Well, say that we are a diverse group because we represent actually, we are proposing a different alternative diverse people, and that is positive. locally.” Q218 Bob Blackman: Do not feel obliged to say Q216 Bob Blackman: Okay. Lucinda? anything, but anything to add? Cllr Yeadon: There is not much left after all of that, Cllr Gordon: I would not dissent from that, but I think is there? I think communication skills are really we have to acknowledge the practicalities of it. First important, particularly with the way that of all, we as councillors do not select our candidates; communication is changing and being able to it is the party machine. I do not know whether you access—as I think was already mentioned—modern will be speaking to them. No one is able to take that technology to reach some of the harder-to-reach overview prior to election. Individual candidates are groups. You need to be somebody who is able to try selected and elected. It is only once they have been to find solutions to problems and someone who is elected that you can gather them together and say, “Oh willing to co-operate, whether that is with differing dear, that does not look very good, does it?” At best, parties or different organisations, and to be in Hertfordshire, we have 11 constituencies, so some approachable. Gone are the days where we are sitting of those might be able to look at half-a-dozen in ivory towers and not able to meet people that we candidates, but no one can look at the whole. represent. We have to be approachable. Certainly, having been elected, we, as you, are single Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It is also being able to think elected representatives in a patch, so be we male, outside the box sometimes and to challenge what you female, black, white, whatever, we still have to do our are being told. Some councillors have moved with the damnedest to represent everybody that is in that patch. times, but certain council officers have not. They will It does not alter the fact that I would prefer if people send out an answer, “No, this cannot be done”. Some came and looked at our chamber and thought, “Yes, councillors would historically accept that. I am not that looks a bit more like Hertfordshire than it cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 55
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton currently does,” but it is more someone else’s Cllr Golton: I can give you an example. It depends business. on which communities you represent. I represent a Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I think the difficulty—and all community that is ex-mining. It is 99% white but it is the parties face this—is trying to persuade people to only 5% gay, but they have a gay councillor. So we stand for office now. have ticked a box anyway. When my party was larger in numbers pre-coalition, we had a wider geographical Q219 Bob Blackman: That is exactly what I am spread and that meant that within our group we had coming to next. What is being done by the council— we had quite a few women, we had a lesbian, we had not necessarily the political group—to encourage four gay men, we had two Asian councillors and we people from different communities to come forward? had two Jewish members; but as we were not so Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I will leave Rob to answer what successful in elections, it meant that a lot of those the council is doing, because I do not think council is people fell off because they represented the doing much. It is difficult, I think it would be fair to communities that they served because there were a say, for the council to do much because it is for the larger number of them in those particular wards. They political parties to encourage people to stand. This is tend to sometimes get replaced by people of the same where you do have the difficulties because if someone community, but not always. The party can encourage, who has perhaps just started their career has council but it does not necessarily mean that the electorate commitments, their employer may think rather dimly will embrace. of that. That certainly has been said to me and it has undoubtedly been said to my colleagues here as well. Q221 Bob Blackman: Leeds has multi-member I have to say some of the political backbiting that goes wards? on between the parties in robust election campaigns Cllr Golton: Yes, three. actually puts people off standing because they think, Cllr Yeadon: Yes, correct. “I don’t really like to do all that. I don’t really want to get into all those things. I only really want to serve Q222 Bob Blackman: As opposed to Hertfordshire, the community and sort out having this play area which has single member wards? refurbished. I don’t really care about what is going on Cllr Gordon: Yes. nationally.” Therefore, they will not stand for election. Part of the problem the parties themselves have is that Q223 Bob Blackman: Which gives you more scope they do put people off as a part of that. Now, those of then to actually ensure that the candidates selected are us who are a bit longer in the tooth put up with that representative of the area? and we take it on the shoulder, but encouraging new Cllr Yeadon: I just feel that there has been a lot of, “It people to come along where that sort of campaigning is not really our responsibility.” It is our responsibility, goes on makes it much more difficult for all the because we are the politicians and we are the ones parties, I would suggest. who make the decisions. It is our parties who make We should be representative—irrespective of who is rules around selections. It is our parties who nurture elected—of our whole community. Sometimes that is and encourage our members to put themselves difficult, but then perhaps you engage with the lower forward. We cannot blame the political machine tier of elected representatives who might be slightly because we are the political machine. Perhaps if we more representative. I engage with a mixture of male are not getting the right people put forward, we need and female borough councillors of different ages and to have a look at the way that we operate within the different experiences. You use their experiences as parties to do that. Women generally do better in you would use the experiences of some of the elections. When we had the all-outs in Leeds, it was community groups you work with and some of the women who were coming the top of the list because youth volunteers that work with some of those people thought, “Oh, it is a woman, she is a bit organisations. different and perhaps she is not just the same as the rest of them.” I think we cannot say it is the political Q220 Bob Blackman: Does it matter to you, and machine because we are the politicians; we are the does it matter to your group on the council, that you ones who actually make the decisions about these have significantly fewer women and significantly things. fewer people from black and minority ethnic Cllr Gordon: We are here as council leaders in the communities? broadest sense. Selection decisions are matters for our Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It matters to the political parties, political parties or, indeed, for independents who so yes. The group cannot decide that because it is the wish. I appreciate we wear both hats, but I think we electorate who decide who is elected. Yes, we may have been summoned here in our council roles. Yes, put up X number of women or X number of people the council does have a responsibility in terms of from an ethnic background. In order to avoid the promoting democracy, but that is far more about political argument, you need to put them up in seats making sure the information is available. If someone that they are likely to win. That will vary across the says, “I am interested in becoming a councillor. How political spectrum, but you cannot force the electorate do I go about it?” that information is there. to vote for those individuals. It is about choosing the Encouraging people to vote, taking part in local best person for the job out of the political parties. democracy week and trying to get councillors in and Often, nowadays, candidate selection in most places out of schools, and so on, but actually going out and is rarely contested, I would suggest. identifying potential candidates—the vast majority of cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Ev 56 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton whom will have to stand on a political label if they Cllr Gordon: I think the evidence remains not so are likely to get elected—is not business for a council, much in terms of colour per se but if you have a in my view. peculiar name that hits you. Looking at the analysis Cllr Golton: That is one of the areas where the council of multi-member seats— can encourage, though. You have school councils and, of course, you make sure that every single school runs Q226 Bill Esterson: What about youth; is that an competitions and that individuals can be encouraged advantage? to stand within those. Then, of course, when you have Cllr Gordon: Youth is not so well known, but I think looked-after children, you also ensure that they have if I just make a small point while Stephen catches his their own voice body that encourages that. breath, as is the advantage I have back home. We had Cllr Gordon: I think the other issue, though, that may a candidate last time round who was very youthful. I be slightly different from the position that you think he was just 18; he did not quite get in. There is gentlemen are in is that there is a far greater a question mark whether in any sense it is a typical expectation with a council candidate that they have a 18-year-old who seeks to be elected at that stage of strong connection with the patch before they are their life. Most are still completing their career, their adopted. I know a number of you have had, but a job, establishing family, all of that sort of thing. number of you do not have. Stephen used the point Merely to be young: question mark. Yes, it would be of making sure that the underrepresented groups are nice to see. I only have one in my group—only one offered seats that they are likely to win, but if they under 40. come forward and their connection is with a seat that Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I suppose I can speak from they are not likely to win, it is not easy to pick them experience on this because I was elected at the age of up and put them somewhere else where they do not 21, having been 21 on nomination day, when it was have that legitimacy. I think parliamentary candidates still 21 rather than 18. I was the only one elected from can earn their local credentials; council candidates my group in that year; I am afraid I defeated the tend to have to get in very quickly. Conservative chairman of social services. I think it was not necessarily the youth that elected me because, Q224 Bob Blackman: Can I just come back on one in fact, I did not have any of my photographs on the issue because, Robert, you being the leader of the leaflet because I looked too young, but actually it was council here, surely you want an appropriate number the fact that I door-knocked lots of residents prior to of compliant individuals who are voted in and who do the election. It is how you are known in the what you tell them to, rather than having Stephen’s community and what you do that is normally far more multitudinous, independently minded people who are important to individuals getting elected. going to go off and do their own thing and maybe they will vote for you collectively or maybe they will not? Q227 Bill Esterson: A very quick final question from Cllr Gordon: I will not trespass into the trouble of me: all-women shortlists, black and minority ethnic herding Lib Dem councillors. No, obviously Bob you shortlists, yes or no? understand it. Having had a rigorous debate within the Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I think not, because there you group, if that is appropriate, we want people who will are imposing a party will or a party decision. I speak then put their hand up at the right time in the right personally on this. places, as you have all trooped off loyally to do a few Cllr Gordon: There would be a number of seats where moments ago. That does not mean that I want a stack there would not be a single candidate. of yes men and women who will just do what I say, Cllr Golton: No. although that is occasionally an attractive prospect. Cllr Yeadon: I was selected on an all-woman shortlist Again, that is part of the wider decision-making of the and so in that case I think they are a necessary evil, if council, corporate decision-making, which is you like. I would like to be able to say that I was the important. I am very happy to talk about that. The right person for the job and that is why I got selected emphasis I think we are talking about is the front-line in that seat. I still think I was the right person for the role, and I want people there who are really energetic, job, I still got selected in the seat, but I cannot say it really engaged, really thoughtful, will do that was because it was an open shortlist. However, for the brokerage role and, yes, will be an advocate for their past 100 years we have had more or less male-only patch so if things cannot be decided very locally— shortlists and nobody seemed to object to those. and that is the vast majority, of course—who will then come back to me, to the appropriate cabinet member, Q228 Bill Esterson: What about black and minority and say, “This needs sorting out in my patch. It has to ethnic shortlists, any difference there? You have all be sorted out at that level, so please get on with it.” said no. We all say this, but I mean it: rigorous debates Cllr Yeadon: I think our representation from black privately, grand; obviously, loyalty publically once minority ethnic groups relative to numbers of you get to that point. population is more or less actually pretty good. Bill Esterson: Not an issue as such. Q225 Bill Esterson: Two points that just came out of what Lucinda said. You said women tend to do better Q229 David Heyes: Councillor Gordon, I think I just in elections. Do young councillors or any other of the heard you say that councils do have a role in groups that we have mentioned do better in elections? promoting democracy. Does that mean that you cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 57
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton disagree with the Government’s abolition of the legal happen overnight—that over time people will say, duty to promote democracy? “Well, it matters who our councillor is, and this guy Cllr Gordon: No, I am very happy not to be under a is doing a good job, whereas this woman is”—sorry, duty and to exercise our own discretion locally. I am getting into dangerous territory—“This other Clearly, that is something in which we are all person is not doing a good job”. At the margins, interested. There has been no change in what hopefully more and more that will make a difference Hertfordshire has done. I am not suggesting on the day. If people think it matters they are far more necessarily we do as much as we should. There has likely to vote than if they think, “It doesn’t matter been no change from that duty having gone away; it who I vote for; you get the same outcome.” is still something that we are concerned to do. Q231 David Heyes: Falling short of action using the Q230 David Heyes: Do any of the other panel council to invite people to become councillors and to members think that was a retrograde step to abolish encourage people to be in council, to do it one step that duty? removed, to make the job attractive in other words— Cllr Golton: I think there is less that you should be that is your recipe? imposing on councils as a duty and they should be Cllr Gordon: That is right, yes. There are two things: choosing to do what they choose to do. I can to demonstrate to people who might at some stage remember some of our actual campaigns in the past think about becoming a councillor but have been that were awful in terms of promoting democracy. It rather put off that this is a jolly interesting and useful was something like, “Vote before you croak”, with a thing to do, but also to demonstrate to the electorate, skeleton on the side of a bus. Sometimes they are not to residents, that it matters to them who is helping very good examples of a use of public money. There them resolve their problems and advocating for them. are different ways of doing things and perhaps you If you can manage both of those things, it can only can incorporate it within your own council’s policy to help pull in the right direction. ensure that people like schools are encouraging it from very early ages, saying, “This is why this is Q232 David Heyes: Perhaps I could ask Councillor important. This is why you personally should get Yeadon’s views on this. Has the negative image involved.” With advertising campaigns, it is often around local government been a disincentive to very difficult to understand how effective they are. getting people to come forward? Therefore, if you have a really good idea then you Cllr Yeadon: I think if you spoke to somebody in their should put your money behind it and stick by it, as community and said, “Who would you trust more, a opposed to being told you have to do it. councillor or an MP?” I am not sure whether they Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I have no problems with the would necessarily have a negative view of local abolition issue per se providing councils are still government. I think if somebody went to the council promoting it, but what is more relevant when you chamber when there was a debate taking place and have turnouts normally under 40%, with some whether they would have a negative view of local exceptions, is actually what is relevant. You will get government, then perhaps. I think the way we conduct on the doorstep, “You are all the same, I am not ourselves could be better. Whether it is a statutory bothering voting” or, “Decisions are all made at duty or whether it is a moral duty to encourage people county hall. What is the point? What can you do?” I to take part in democracy is one thing or another, but I think it is getting that message across; actually, it is think local authorities should encourage it. That starts relevant in the community by having someone who is young, like you were saying, at the school councils. working with the community advocating. We should be encouraging young people through to The thing that I have a particular bugbear about, older people. It goes back to whether we are a diverse which probably you will not be able to control, is we representation of the communities. If people come to know when the elections are in terms of annual a room that is full of 60-plus-year-old white men and elections for most councils or every four years with think, “Do they represent me? Do I feel they will the county, but the media, in fact, does very little to listen to me?” maybe they would have a negative view publicise the fact that “Today is polling day; go and of local government. vote”. You hear about the results maybe afterwards because X party has been hammered in the local Q233 David Heyes: Just one last quick question for elections, but how much was in the media saying all of you to comment on if you wish. Is the voluntary today was polling day, encouraging people to go and community sector, voluntary community groups, a vote on that day? I think that begs some of the good hunting ground for potential candidates? If so, question. Often politicians will go and knock at the what do you do about it? door at 9.00 at night; “Oh, I didn’t know today was Cllr Golton: It is a very good hunting ground for polling day,” said a voter because they had not heard potential candidates, but I think it needs encouraging anything about it because it has not been in the media. and valuing. We still have a lot to do in terms of Cllr Gordon: But one of the reasons why I am as investing in our communities, in terms of building fixed on promoting the role of the local council in the social capacity so that a lot more social enterprises patch is I think linked in with this. If the local council get made and grow up. Through that very process of is more visible and more accountable, if they are seen facilitating that understanding, you get far more as being someone who can help do something in the confident people who will then think, “Do you know patch, then it is far more likely—it is not going to what, I am going to go that step further because I have cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Ev 58 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton got so far and I have this project sorted, but I think I term and then giving up, because they have lost the could be of use elsewhere”. The voluntary sector tends will to live or there are particular barriers in their way, to be a lot more flexible in its working arrangements, can I ask you each what the issues are that prevent so they have a lot more people who are on shared jobs people from standing or encourage them to step down or they are on part-time working, which makes it far after serving a short term? Robert in particular; your easier to fit in with the council. Because the big thing council has come out with a view of saying that that puts people off council work is not the bit that remuneration and the attitude of employers needs to they see you doing, which is turning up to community change. What are you doing about it? meetings and making things happen; they are aware Cllr Gordon: What are we doing about trying to that behind it there are a whole load of mind-numbing change those attitudes? I suppose not a great deal committee meetings that will sap the will out of you. apart from letting it be known that this is an issue. I If they are young and they have families, then they do will come back to your single termers in a minute, not find that an attractive option. That is one of the because I was focusing my mind around that. The reasons again why you will find that councillors tend whole question of the impact on your earning to be a little bit older, because if they have children, capacity, your career, your pension, of becoming a they do not have the time. councillor is a very serious one. We still, though, live in a world where I think a lot of the public would say Q234 David Heyes: Anyone else? they think we ought to be doing this as pure voluntary Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I would agree with you to some service, which is how it was when I first started. There extent, but part of that problem sometimes can be was a rather peculiar allowance scheme but no one people will be very much single interest in terms of bothered to claim it. Allowances now for front-line that particular voluntary sector. They want to be on councillors, certainly for leading councillors, are high the council to influence that single interest. It is enough to offend the public but not high enough to encouraging people not just from that sort of group encourage any sane person to give up their career and but from community associations to stand. What they earning capacity to take it on. I think it was one of have done already in their community association they your colleagues who said that nomination papers could apply to their whole ward or, in the case of a ought to have a health warning on the bottom saying, county division, the whole county division because “Becoming a councillor seriously damages your they are already an advocate. They know how to get wealth.” There is a whole host of circumstances that things done. They know how to influence people. It is you know in your lives as well that can deprive you persuading those people to do that. Rightly so, it is of office, either in terms of senior office and the pay actually ensuring then that they have the influence that goes with it, or of being in administration, or over those decision-makers. Robert and I disagree. being in opposition rather than being in Certain things have been delegated to local members; administration, or losing your seat entirely and having others have kept very much in the control of the nothing. Those are not in the normal employment administration or the centre. Now, having that sense at all under your own control, so there are huge influence there would also encourage more people, I risks with doing it. That, probably more than the hours believe, to stand. The reason you do not get some of and the other challenges of the job, prevents a lot of those people to stand is, firstly, they do not want to people coming forward. be associated with one political party or another, or There is a case—I do not specifically argue it because secondly, they believe they can get better things or I think in today’s climate it would not run particularly more for their community or their community group well—relating to issues around better pension by being outside of the political arena. arrangements, parachute payments in the event of Cllr Gordon: I think it is fair to say that it is unlikely defeat or loss of significant office, or some sort of that someone is going to be ready to be an effective cushion. I am of an age now where if the electorate councillor if they are not already involved in some was unkind enough to dump me, I could go off and sort of community voluntary-type activity. do something else; I have been doing this for a long Cllr Yeadon: My background is in the third sector and time, and if it had happened to me 10 years ago it I am the third-sector champion on the council. I think would have been seriously financially embarrassing. they are absolutely vital for us reaching not only the There is a problem in terms of who can afford to take people who are active within those organisations, but that risk. I think that is significant. I do not offer you also reaching members of our communities who are any submissions specifically, but if it is an issue that harder to reach. The third sector do it better than a lot you are interested in, looking at the skills that of statutory organisations. For a hunting ground, I do councillors need to have and particularly—I do not think that they are an excellent place to find people say this in any arrogant sense—for leading councillors who are community-minded, community-spirited, and if they are going to do the job well, they are all people probably have a lot of the same values and ethos in that could hold down pretty well paid jobs in the real the third sector as in the public sector that we should world. You are not going to find many of us who are be encouraging. mad enough to come and do it on the present terms if money matters. We all have families to feed and Q235 Bob Blackman: Looking at the barriers that mortgages to pay. prevent people from either becoming council In terms of the short-term councillors I think it is candidates or councillors in the first place, or people interesting. A lot of them are people who, candidly, becoming councillors but only serving for a single win marginal seats when the pendulum swings in your cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 59
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton direction and then they go again. They then find people are put off by the level of political something more interesting to do and you never see campaigning they have to do to get elected, to be fair. them again. Because we have all-out elections next “I have done all that; I do not really want to go May, I have looked at those colleagues who are through all that all over again,” is a potential thing. standing down at a younger age than you might Robert has already alluded to the impact on pensions expect. There is a whole host of reasons. Some of and career. I have to say I think some of the reasons them are clearly connected with family, businesses nowadays some people are put off is the cabinet and things like that, where they say, “Sorry, I have to system whereby the cabinet, which is the put more time in there.” Some of them found it just is administration, has made those decisions, although we not for them. We have touched very briefly on the are able in some areas now to move back, or will be supply of potential candidates, there are still patches able to move back, to committee systems. where one oppressed person becomes the councillor and they find it is not for them. They have the courage Q238 Bob Blackman: Would you go back if you had then to say after four years, “I do not want to do this the chance? any more.” There are others where you have six, 10, Cllr Giles-Medhurst: We have a semi-committee 12 candidates fighting for a safe seat. So for a number system on the district council I am on, and I definitely of them it is just not right for them. I have not been would. I was on a committee system when I was in able to identify anybody among those who are Harrow, and I would definitely go back to the standing down from my group—other than on age committee system. It is far more embracing in terms grounds—that it is to do with the job. It is to do with of having discussion across the spectrum in probably a other pressures in their life. Obviously if they have far more non-political way than the cabinet system is. decided it is not for them, then that is to do with the job, but I do not think I can see any that says if there Q239 Bob Blackman: Stewart, anything to add on was more support, if the pay was better, and so on. barriers? Cllr Golton: It is down to time. I know that Q236 Bob Blackman: Lucinda, any barriers in Leeds allowances help, but it is certainly not the main reason that you are overcoming? why people choose to go into it in the first place. It Cllr Yeadon: The hours that council works are very will be their experience of how they can actually difficult and not necessarily family-friendly. If you are juggle things. Even if you do have a boss who at the looking at starting a family, they can be very difficult. beginning says, “Yes, it is fine”, eventually you might We have just had two fairly recently elected Labour get the message that actually it is not. Therefore, I members who have just had babies. To get the have no problem with people falling out after a year. maternity leave from council it has to go to a vote at If nothing else, they will have experienced enough full council, which is bizarre. You would not expect that they might want to come back in a few years’ that in any other workplace. I do think that is difficult. time when they do have more time. The more people When I was elected I had an understanding employer that do it the better, because that way you get better who allowed me the time, but in the end I just had to understanding in the community. give up my old job because there was no way that I could do my responsibilities as a councillor effectively Q240 Mark Pawsey: Do you think the job of and properly and hold down the job that I had with a councillor, the amount of time it takes, should be national charity at the same time. I had to make the reduced such that it can become a wholly part-time decision and so I chose this, and hopefully that is not interest with meetings only held in the evenings? Or going to go wrong. They are some major barriers, and do we need to take the pendulum the other way and probably the idea is that to be a councillor you have say, “No, this is not working; we need to have entirely to be, like I said, a 60-plus-year-old white man—there full-time councillors who do not do something else”? is a certain stereotype—so people probably do not Just briefly. think that it is something that they can do and that Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Meetings are a very small probably is a massive barrier. fraction of what I do as a councillor. Inevitably, council officers work during the day. You need to be Q237 Bob Blackman: Stewart or Stephen, any able to contact them and speak to them during the day barriers? by and large, particularly when you are talking about Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Definitely in terms of hours and, metropolitan and county levels. It is not a part-time indeed, being accessible. I got a phone call last night job. You need to be able to access them when the at 10.30 from a resident expecting something to be need arises. You just cannot say, “I will do the emails dealt with. Some councillors will be put off by that. between 7.00 and 9.00 at night and I will go to the They have a home life, perhaps they have young council meeting on the Tuesday evening.” It does not children, the children have gone to bed, the phone work like that. rings at that time, and they will not like it. It does put Cllr Gordon: I think Stephen is absolutely spot-on people off. There are potentially boring meetings: there about the concentration on meetings, particularly after four years of full council meetings where in the cabinet system. Although, as Stephen knows, actually nothing is decided because the administration in Hertfordshire we have a pretty wide-ranging panel has decided everything, as they would do, in advance, system that goes a fair way of replicating the people ask what really is the point of being there? It inclusiveness before, but yes, it is going on does potentially put them off. I have to say some persistently. There was something else I was going to cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Ev 60 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton say that has slipped my mind, but if it comes back, I know that there is an example of this. We are going will chip in again. to make sure that the officers take advantage of this Cllr Golton: The independent remuneration boards and learn up on it.” I think that is one of the big issues. that all councils have these days will evaluate the role It is the fact that people who work within an authority and decide what it is. Even in a very large authority and have grown up in an authority and have been like Leeds where we have very large wards, it is still promoted through the ranks in an authority are used considered a part-time occupation, but the to working a certain way, and they are used to getting remuneration does reflect the amount of people you their own way sometimes. Sometimes, we need to are probably going to have to work with. If you make inject that challenge for it to happen. Of course, I was it full-time, then you get extra issues in terms of able to do it on a local level to say, “Here we are, here redundancy and things like that. I do not think that is is an example.” I took some local people down to really something that the electorate would like to Sandwell to meet the people that did it in their own contemplate. community. Then we introduced those people to Cllr Yeadon: I do not think it is. I think being a Lucinda, who, in her leadership role as an executive councillor is a way of life, really. When I go do my board member, was able to challenge her officers from shop in Morrisons and I meet my constituents, I am the other end, so we had a bit of a pincer movement. not going to turn round to them and say, “I am off- Cllr Yeadon: Cross-party consulting. duty at the moment.” I take my notebook so I can pick Cllr Golton: Through that, the officers now have a up the casework while I am in the bread aisle. It is better understanding of the world in which they are probably a bit of an academic argument about whether working in which is different—as we said at the very it should be full-time or part-time. We should be able beginning—and they are taking on this issue of social to be in a position that meetings are more flexible so enterprise and are running with it and we will actually they are more family-friendly and more friendly for get a better outcome for people out of it, so instead of people who have jobs. I also think having members things being closed you just find a different who have other jobs outside of the council ensures governance model. [Interruption.] that you get a different perspective on some of the Chair: Right, I am sorry we are going to have to go issues that you are dealing with. It means you have a away. We will come back and we will try to then just different skills base and it also means that those keep you for another quarter of an hour but no more. people are not always in a council bubble, which can Committee suspended for a Division in the House. sometimes make you lose your view on things. Cllr Gordon: The one point that I was going to make Q242 David Heyes: Well, the question basically was: was in terms of the timing of meetings. I appreciate will officers need to adapt to meet the changing role there are probably more people that find evening of councillors? A quick view from each of you on that meetings convenient rather than daytime meetings, would be fine. but I think Stephen’s point is well made, though, about Cllr Golton: We have held a leadership event as well the scale of them. Certainly, I have two female in Leeds City Council recently and, given that all the colleagues with young children who can do daytime council employees are affected by the cuts that have meetings but could not possibly do evening meetings. come down on to local government, there has been a It is not entirely a one-way issue. real point about investing in them and saying, “We are going to provide you with these leadership Q241 David Heyes: Councillor Golton, you referred opportunities.” Part of it—I actually have a flier—is with some feeling a while ago to meeting times being where they have opportunities to talk about arranged to suit the convenience of officers rather than partnership-building, and it is encouraging innovation members. I think it was you that said that. I guess that within council officers who might join a team where the inflexibility of officers is an issue you have all had they get told, “Oh, no, we work this way, we don’t do to deal with. In what ways will the support provided that,” but they are being told from the very top in the by officers have to adapt to the changing needs of leadership that, “Your ideas count, and your councillors? Refer to each of your local authorities; innovation could make the difference between the what is the situation like in each of your authorities? service being kept or not being around in a few years’ Cllr Golton: Do you know, I am going to refer to that time.” That kind of encouragement is really important example I was going to give earlier—the issue about to change those attitudes that you are talking about. the closed residential homes. The local community Cllr Gordon: I think for most of us, I hope, the were not for it at all. You got a bad time, didn’t you? political grip at the top of the organisation isn’t too Cllr Yeadon: Yes. much of a problem. As you move down through the Cllr Golton: The solution that was put forward was, operational levels it can get more difficult to make “Can’t we have a social enterprise that is based in the sure that gets through. But that is where I think the community?” and, “Let’s look at progressive transfer.” inter-relation with the front-line councillor matters. The officers were extremely resistant. When we said, Where you have an officer who is delivering front- “Can we please do this?” they said, “No, that does not line service and a front-line council, they have to be work”. Then I did a bit of research and I found a harnessed together. Officers have to understand—this group that did do it in Sandwell. They said, “No, it is is a campaign that I am conducting at the moment— nothing like what we have here.” We had to really that a good relationship with their front-line battle to get them to take it on board. In terms of that councillors is an asset to them, not a chore; but community leadership element, you think, “Right, we equally, the challenge that I am putting to officers at cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 61
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton that level is to help identify more decisions that can “What is the role of a local councillor and how do we be made susceptible to local variation and local influence the governance of the contracts that we influence in the way we have with the highways stuff. hold?” Then I think officers struggle to see, in commissioning, what the role of the local councillor Q243 David Heyes: Isn’t that made a lot more is, and how you ensure that you stick to those difficult as a result of outsourcing? procurement rules and the rest of it. It is a difficult Cllr Gordon: Not if the contracts are appropriately relationship and we need to ensure local members still written. We have all sorts of history about our have some accountability to those services that are highway contracts, which are the largest ones, but the being commissioned on behalf of the council, and it front-line interrelation with officers, whether they are is really important that our local members feel some county council staff or outsource staff doesn’t matter, ownership of that as well. It is vital to have a good provided the contract is written right and the relationship with the officers if you are going to be expectation is right. Let’s not suggest everything has effective and I think sometimes there are tensions in always gone perfectly. Yes, there is a challenge to officer and member relations. Officers also need to officers, and the challenge to officers is if the political recognise if they are organising meetings in an will of the organisation is to make more decisions inappropriate timeslot for members, members should more locally with more variation and more directly tell the officers and say, “I can’t do that; I’ll do it at engage with front-line councillors and communities, this time,” and assert a bit of authority. Perhaps that identify which bit of it is susceptible for that. A lot of is easy when you are in an exec position, and maybe it is not; this is all a subsidiarity-type thing. Lots of it is harder for backbenchers, but I think we need to decisions have to be taken at that level or, say, by just sometimes remind officers who the council is. traditional representative top democracy processes. Cllr Giles-Medhurst: One thing I would say about More can be made by effective democratic bad officers—and my experience of good and bad participation through local members, but officers have officers throughout the years is irrespective of which to help identify what it is that can be switched to that party you represent or non—you are there to try to real local variation and local choice. represent and do the best for your community and Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Certainly officers do have to be your residents. Most officers, by and large, understand in tune with the elected members who make decisions that and if, say, there is a red-tape problem with it, at the end of the day. Yes, they are there to implement they are the sort to say, “Well, actually there is a what may be the administration’s policy that has been problem, and we can’t do it this way, but how about agreed by council unanimously, but there are elected doing it this way?” because as an individual you will councillors behind that, and on a whole raft of not know all the ways around the system and the decisions members will not be involved. Equally, various nuances, perhaps of social services or housing members sometimes will want to challenge and regulations, so you are reliant on officers making their question why officers have done X. We have the own suggestions. But if they know you are there to scrutiny functions, in terms of overview and scrutiny, try to do the best for the residents then they are and we have officers having to give evidence of that working with you and that is the best sort of officer/ and some of them that have not liked being challenged member relationship you can have. as to why they have made decisions. Gone are the days when they were able to present a report to a Q245 Simon Danczuk: I wanted to ask briefly about council committee and have it just be a question of, the training that your authorities provide to elected “All agreed? Yes, thank you. Chairman, move to the councillors. I was reading in Hertfordshire that you, next item,” and so on. Those days have gone and there “Provide training around communications, are, I have to say, fewer and fewer officers who are consultations, skills and techniques” trying to create tuned to that, but there are still some people in that these social activists in terms of the submission that mindset that have spent hours and hours bringing this Leeds have said: “We are trying to get councillors to report and they don’t like their report being torn to utilise less formal social networks, participatory shreds at the cabinet panel, such as in the case of democracy”. It is all a bit soft, isn’t it? It is all a Hertfordshire County Council. bit wishy-washy, is it not, all this? Do we not need councillors that can read a spreadsheet; is that not Q244 David Heyes: Or even before it gets that far. what we are after? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Or even before it gets that far Cllr Gordon: We do. There are two not distinct perhaps, yes. But they have to realise that is what they functions, but let’s simplify it and have two distinct are in because we are in that role of challenging what functions. There are those sorts of responsibilities— they had brought forward. the spreadsheet, the budgeting, the eye-level stuff— Cllr Yeadon: Stewart is right in the work that we’ve that falls on the whole council in one sense, but in done in Leeds to try to support and motivate our reality on the leadership of the cabinet, the leadership officers, and there has also been a political-awareness of the opposition. Those are significant roles, but all training that I have been involved in where council of us are front-line councillors and my submission that officers have come and met a councillor. Some of I made to you—because you can only cover part of them would not have had that opportunity before, and this territory—was in that front-line role. In that front- that is quite bizarre. But I think you are right; I think line role we need these much softer skills and so, yes, outsourcing does affect the relationship between that is what we are talking about there, and I could councillors and officers, because you start to ask, not put it better than I have already put it in what you cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Ev 62 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton have read back to me, so that is what we are trying to front-line councillors. I think that just loses the whole do. Some people have some of those skills. Some are thing because the lazy ones say, “Well, speak to the willing to try to learn them. Some of them just will officer,” and the community gets confused in terms of not engage with it at all; that is the nature of the beast. who is the person that does the job. Support for front- But if we are trying to move to a situation where line councillors, in the way that officers talk to them councillors help communities run themselves, it is and keep them informed, is important. Training we those sorts of skills that are important for those of have kept up, and whether it is training for councillors us—and in one sense it is all of us—on whom the or training for staff, anybody that cuts their training is burden of running the council sits, this whole range creating a problem for the future. We have kept up of other training, provided in-house and through the our graduate training course and things like that, LGA and others, as well as the leadership course at despite very difficult financial times. Leeds Castle and all that sort of stuff that I and Chair: Just very briefly, Stephen. colleagues have been on. I say that the submission Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It is very lean. Basically all the from which you have quoted is very much about that opposition members share one member of staff for front-line role that we all have first and foremost. secretarial support and, yes, we get a PC if we want to use it, and that is it. Q246 Simon Danczuk: Okay, Lucinda, what is training like for councillors in Leeds? Is it enough? Is Q249 Simon Danczuk: Each? there enough going on? Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Yes. Cllr Yeadon: We have got a good member development department in Leeds. It does depend on Q250 Simon Danczuk: Lucinda, are the budgets how well members engage with that. I quite enjoy holding up in Leeds, then? going to training and I do as much as I can. Cllr Yeadon: We have well-resourced group officers, but we have major budget cuts to our local Q247 Simon Danczuk: But those that need it don’t government grants. If we are looking at where to have it, is that not the case? make savings, I am sure the public would much rather Cllr Yeadon: Yes. I think that is probably fair to say, we look at how councillors are supported, rather than if you are wanting to develop and you are wanting to within the adult social care or children’s budgets. We kind of gain those skills, you will go out and find the have to make sure that we are being as effective as training for it and you have to have a certain self- possible with the funding, but the funding situation awareness as well to know what you need within most local authorities is pretty difficult and we development on. are trying to do more with a lot less. Simon Danczuk: Yes. Simon Danczuk: Okay; thank you. Cllr Golton: And an open mind, because at the end of the day your development is useful because you Q251 Mark Pawsey: May I just ask a follow-up have officers that will have experience in terms of question on training? Is training mandatory in any of how to give training and also they will keep you up your authorities, and are there any committees or to date with legislative changes. So, when the functions of a council that members should not be able Localism Act comes in they will make sure that there to participate in without having had training? are briefings and make sure that you are aware of the Cllr Gordon: Yes, development control is a key one; implications for that neighbourhood planning. I think we don’t have licensing. Perhaps even something in it is also incumbent upon councillors to go out and talk to other parts of the productive end of society that standards. There are certain functions which members is working within your city or your area. You do need cannot be appointed to unless they are trained, but in to engage with the third sector when they have their terms of the wider personal training— events, you do need to talk to the private sector when they have their events, you do need to understand their Q252 Mark Pawsey: Is that right? circumstances, so then you can go back to your own Cllr Gordon: That is right, yes, particularly in officers and say, “Well, yes, the council is meant to be development control and licensing. There is such a the lead partner for the rest of the city, but it also legal framework to it but in terms of personal skills needs to be responsible and responsive to the needs of training, there is no sanction that can be brought to others so that they can play their part”. bear. As has been hinted at, often those who need it most are those that participate least. Q248 Simon Danczuk: Okay, and just briefly, are the budgets in terms of staff support for councillors and Q253 Mark Pawsey: And the same in Leeds? training holding up in your local authority, Robert, or Cllr Golton: Yes. have they been cut? Cllr Golton: Anything that is quasi-traditional. Cllr Gordon: They are pretty lean but they have not Cllr Yeadon: Yes. been reduced in terms of the outcome. I hope that some of them are being run more efficiently than Q254 Mark Pawsey: Okay. I want to ask questions might have been the case before. But, no, we very to Councillors Gordon and Giles-Medhurst, if I may, deliberately have not put in place—as some councils particularly with regard to the issue of two-tier did perhaps when money was more readily authorities. What particular challenges are there in available—neighbourhood support officers to support working in a two-tier system? I say that as somebody cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 63
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton who has sat as a district councillor and represents a Q256 Mark Pawsey: All right. In a two-tier two-tier authority area. authority, is it appropriate for a member to sit on both Cllr Gordon: Yes. It adds a complication. That is not authorities? Is there a conflict of interest if he does so? to say that necessarily it is a bad thing. I think the Cllr Giles-Medhurst: No, definitely not. I sit on two shire areas do represent themselves in various different authorities, although not for the same area. I different community levels and certainly town and was asked this question at selection, because I am up parishes, even more locally than districts, but it does for election next year: is it a conflict? No; when I am mean there is not that simple clarity. I talk about the a county councillor I am representing my issues as a visibility, the accountability, the brokerage of the local county councillor and the county council’s view and councillor; in reality that is one county councillor, but politically, and the same on the district council. there will probably be six borough councillors and there may be a dozen or so and more town and parish Q257 Mark Pawsey: You are on both the district and councillors, so that sort of visibility and accountability the county? becomes more complicated. Generally, I think Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Yes. colleagues work together pretty well across the tiers, even where there are party-political differences. But Q258 Mark Pawsey: What about if there is a conflict there will be some, even where there are not party between the two bodies and the interests of one political differences, where, for some reason, council are in one direction and the interests of the interpersonally they do not get on. It is more other council are in another direction, how can you complicated, but I think even if that were not the possibly reconcile this? case—as in Leeds unitary authority but with multi- Cllr Giles-Medhurst: It has not come up, I have to member constituents—you still have a certain say. If there is a motion to the district council about a complication in terms of, “Who is my local county issue, I am there as a district councillor and I representative?” You gentlemen have the advantage of am representing the district council and my district there is one of you in the patch of your communities, council residents. If it is an issue on the county then and you make the best of it. it is the same. I have to say there has not been that conflict. Q255 Mark Pawsey: Do the public know who is responsible for what? Q259 Mark Pawsey: Councillor Gordon, are you Cllr Giles-Medhurst: No. on both? Cllr Gordon: Not sufficiently, no. I think there is a Cllr Giles-Medhurst: The vast majority of county real confusion in my mind here. Part of me says that councillors in Hertfordshire are on either two in terms of democratic accountability of course the authorities or on another authority. public should know and should cast their ballots accordingly. Of course, we know a lot of them cast Q260 Mark Pawsey: Most councillors represent their ballots according to what is going on up here more than one council? rather than what is going on in their community Cllr Giles-Medhurst: Most county councillors are anyway. The other part of me says that it is our twin-trackers, another reason for having county problem, not their problem and we shouldn’t trouble council meetings during the day is because there were the public to work out which council or which public district council meetings in the evening. agency is responsible for something. They just want an answer, and we ought to deliver it. I am slightly Q261 Mark Pawsey: Is that a decision of your party; torn on that. I lean more towards the line that says, what is the Conservative view? “We just need to get on with the job,” and if someone Cllr Giles-Medhurst: No, it is the lack of finding gets in touch with me because their waste bins aren’t candidates, I suspect. being collected, I do not say, “That is nothing to do Cllr Gordon: I think there are a number of strands to with me; have a word with your borough councillor.” this. I’ve been a twin-tracker but the pressures mean Cllr Giles-Medhurst: I do exactly the same in respect that it is inappropriate. Stephen is in a slightly odd of which area I am representing. But where it does get situation in that your county seat and your district seat complicated is when residents do not understand the are in different district areas, so even less likely to differences between the different tiers of authorities be a conflict. To be fair, the conflicts are very few. and, of course, one of its complications—it is a very Sometimes the conflict of time, if you are left with a simple thing—is the billing authority for your council small majority—which isn’t a problem we’ve had for tax comes from the district or the borough council. a while—in terms of who is going to be at which Yes, it is split down how much the precept is for the meeting if there is a conflict. There are things of that county council, how much it is for the police and if nature. But broadly, I think it is helpful to have a you are in the parish or town how much that is, but number of twin-trackers because it means there is that very few residents will ever read that sort of detail. understanding across the join of the two councils. For They assume all the money goes to the billing a while, one of the districts in Hertfordshire did not authority, and when you explain 77% goes to the have any twin-trackers at all, although it was not quite county, which is responsible for a vast range of a rule. services more than the billing authority, they may not understand but it is very rare you get the opportunity. Q262 Mark Pawsey: But a twin-tracker— cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:01] Job: 023547 Unit: PG03 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o003_db_121017 HC 432-iii corrected transcript.xml
Ev 64 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
17 October 2012 Councillor Robert Gordon CBE, Councillor Stephen Giles-Medhurst, Councillor Lucinda Yeadon and Councillor Stewart Golton
Cllr Gordon: The relationship was more difficult, city as a whole, and, of course, as an executive because there was not that voice on each that member you need to make sure that you have equity understood what the other was doing. in ensuring that the quality of services delivered is commensurate with each community. The challenge Q263 Mark Pawsey: Sure, but given the pressure on in the future will be bespoke services, which will time we have heard about in relation to twin-trackers, mean that some communities will get some things and he is pretty much a professional councillor then, isn’t some communities will not. he, so we are in an era of professional councillors. Cllr Gordon: I think broadly district councillors can Q266 Mark Pawsey: Nobody said being a councillor just about cope with a full-time job, certainly a was easy, Councillor. backbencher, whereas upper-tier councillors probably Cllr Golton: No. cannot. I think that there are potential conflicts, and Cllr Yeadon: The size of the city wards are pretty big, certainly I have a personal position—I know a number with 16,000, I think, in one ward. of my district colleague leaders have as well—that Cllr Golton: It is about 10,000 households. you would not appoint someone to the cabinet of Cllr Yeadon: But then it is interesting when you talk two authorities. about conflicts of interest, because if you think about Mark Pawsey: No, that is fine. conflicts of interest that we may have as an executive Cllr Gordon: Partly that is a conflict of time, but also member and as a ward member, we had to close some it is more likely that you might get into a situation libraries because of budget cuts last year, one of the where you are making a building proposal wearing libraries we decided to close was in my ward. I have one hat and the development control is being to sometimes put aside— considered by the other councils. We do not have any cabinet members in more than one council but, yes, Q267 Mark Pawsey: But those are the conflicts that 50% plus are twin-trackers. That is fairly common all councillors face. nationwide. It is not just a shortage of candidates. I Cllr Yeadon: Exactly, and it is just ensuring that you think some of it is—the words you put—that there is have the judgment to be able to reconcile the two. more of a sort of full-time professional councillor, Sometimes that can be difficult, particularly if you even though the total remuneration might only add up have a very active community who have a very strong to £15,000 or £20,000 a year. It is nothing like a view. The discussion about if you have conflicts proper job if you were a backbencher or a smaller between two types of council was interesting; often position on two councils. you have those conflicts within one council.
Q264 Mark Pawsey: Thank you, and, to bring Leeds Q268 Chair: Just one very briefly; just a yes or no. in, what are the particular challenges caused by being Do both councils have independent panels to advise in a large city? on remuneration, and do you always accept their Cllr Golton: I think that is more of a challenge for advice? the executive members, in that it is a very diverse Cllr Gordon: For as long as I have been leader—five community and you will have some very affluent years now—yes. Indeed, once they recommended a wards on the outskirts of the city and some of the very rise that I felt was inappropriate, and we referred it greatest deprivation in the centre. Of course, when back asking them for a freeze. you are facing Government funding, which is based Chair: Right. upon formulae that are supposed to suit everybody, it Cllr Golton: No, we do not always take their advice, means that sometimes your poorer districts do not get because it is necessarily a voting council and you will the attention they deserve because your richer always be portrayed as voting for a pay rise. environs on the outside average them out. Cllr Yeadon: We took a pay cut. Cllr Golton: In fact, indeed, recently the executive Q265 Mark Pawsey: But as a councillor you members took a 3% pay cut. represent the community as a whole? Chair: Right, okay. Thank you all very much, and Cllr Golton: You represent your own community, thank you for staying for so long with us; it is outside primarily. When you are a councillor and you are in of our control, and we very much appreciate the time full council and you are deciding council policy, then you have given and the contribution you have made. you also need to take into account the interest of the Thank you very much. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 65
Monday 22 October 2012
Members present: Mr Clive Betts (Chair)
Bob Blackman James Morris Simon Danczuk Mark Pawsey David Heyes Heather Wheeler ______
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Paul Wheeler, Director, Political Skills Forum, Nan Sloane, Director, Centre for Women and Democracy, Robert Howard, former councillor, and Councillor Robert Knowles, Leader, Waverley Borough Council, gave evidence.
Q269 Chair: Good afternoon and welcome to you authorities—so if you are the leader of a metropolitan all. Thank you for coming to our fourth evidence borough or the leader of a London council—I think session for the Inquiry into Councillors and the that probably is getting towards full-time. Community. Just for our records, could you all say at Certainly when I give advice to people when they the beginning who you are and the organisation, if progress, I say, “Think about it really hard. If you are any, that you represent? going in the cabinet, you certainly need to think about Robert Knowles: I am Councillor Robert Knowles. I two or three days a week, particularly in a large am Leader of Waverley Borough Council. authority, and if you are going to be leader at some Robert Howard: I am Robert Howard and I am time, you probably need to go full-time or take a retired. secondment. But always bear in mind that is not a Nan Sloane: I am Nan Sloane and I am the Director hereditary role. You may have to get back to the world for the Centre for Women and Democracy. of work, either because your group or the electorate Paul Wheeler: My name is Paul Wheeler. I am decide that, so bear that in mind. If you can change”— Director of the Political Skills Forum, currently and certainly in my experience a lot of people use working as Interim Head of Office in Oldham. local politics to change their job in terms of the skills that they learn—“think about doing something else. Q270 Chair: Thank you very much. You are all But always bear in mind that ultimately you will have welcome. Let me just say right at the beginning that, to find some work.” Local politics does not pay a great if there is a question asked and you basically agree deal. It may support you for a number of years, but it with what someone else has said, you can just say, “I should be, and I think part of this Inquiry is to make agree.” There is no need to repeat it, because we have sure that it is, compatible with working and having a limited amount of time, as always, and we want to a family, otherwise we end up with a very odd lot try to get in as many questions and cover as much of councillors. ground as possible. The first question then, starting Robert Howard: I might be an exception inasmuch as with whoever takes it first: is the role of a councillor I did my period of being a councillor from 1970 to these days incompatible with a full-time job and is 1984, and I was a councillor between the ages of 25 that effectively why we have so many retired people and 40, and I am in no doubt as to why I stopped who are on councils? being a councillor. For the last few years I was a Robert Knowles: Shall I take that? I think the simple full-time councillor, because I was chairing answer is probably yes, because certainly in a rural East Midlands Airport, which was a full-time job. But district such as mine—it is fine to call itself a the interesting reason why I stopped was basically borough; it is really a rural district council—a lot of because it was impossible to represent my community people travel into London to work, and although we without upsetting someone else along the line, and this sit generally at seven in the evening, a third of the is really what happens. I would suggest for a number council is required to attend during the day as well for of people one of the biggest deterrents of continuing meetings such as licensing with the public, and if you as a councillor when they start young is that they are working you cannot do that. So it becomes very, realise that, if you are being elected to serve your very difficult to fully participate. community, one of the hardest things that you can do Paul Wheeler: I think we have to be very careful when you have finished your term is serve your about this, otherwise we do make it a job that only community, because you are up there, you are in a top the rich and the retired can do. Let me say, first of all, job and other people are nudging you and saying, that I think being a councillor is absolutely compatible “Look, do not talk about your place. You are queering with having a job and a family at most levels. Now, my pitch.” part of that depends on whether the council supports I think the thing you need to think about is that you in the job, and you might want to talk about that, younger people probably come in when there is an because if they just throw you to the wolves and say, opportunity for a clear out. It was no coincidence that, “Congratulations, you have been elected; now you are as in 1970, and I have seen similar events since, when answering all your own letters,” it does make it more there is a great big political change in the system, the difficult. I think my qualification would be that, if you older members who have lost in the elections basically progress up the political ladder, particularly in larger get cold feet and they drop out. That is when the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Ev 66 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles youngsters get their opportunities, and certainly in essentially a very large organisation. So the issue of Nottingham, where I come from, you will find a fair support to elected members is really important and number of younger councillors who are certainly one that I know other organisations are trying to career-minded. address, and I think that is particularly true to The other frustration with being a councillor is very executive members. I will give you one specific simply this: that you have maybe a quarter of the example from where we are now, in Westminster. It is council holding office, being the strategists in the not renowned for splashing money around, but every portfolio jobs, getting money, and you have the rest single member of the cabinet in Westminster has a there as backbenchers. That is as big a turn off as full-time researcher and access to a PA, which means anything, and certainly a number of young people I they are all in work and basically when they go into know who would be interested say, “Why should I go a meeting with senior managers and external and spend the next four or eight years on the organisations the brief is prepared. So they can bat backbenches, because I do not have a hope in hell of really well for their organisation without feeling they getting a position of responsibility?” are letting their council down or economising on their job. Q271 Chair: Nan, obviously, you can come in and Now, that is gold-plated, but I think a lot of councils perhaps you could maybe, in parallel, address the can think about how they support their councillors. issue about whether it is even more difficult for There are some really good role models out there; women, perhaps with responsibilities as well, to find Liverpool is a good example. I know we are in times the time to become councillors. of restraint, but I always say: go into a leader’s office Nan Sloane: I was indeed about to say that I think and go into a chief executive’s office, and when the most women find, as indeed Margaret Thatcher found level of support to a leader is the same as a chief and said, that you can do two things at once but not executive, that organisation has probably got it right. three: you can have a job and be a councillor; you can That is particularly true when you are looking for have a job and a family or be responsible for a family; leaders in their 30s or 40s. you can be a councillor and be responsible for a Now, there are a number of examples I can quote of family; but it is extraordinarily difficult to do all three leaders in their 30s and 40s who have stayed on and at the same time. I think an increasing number, I may are doing a brilliant job, and it is partly because the say, of young men also find that as the culture organisation has recognised they need support and changes. But I think it is particularly true for women, also their group have recognised they need support, and all the work that we have done, whether on because this is a group activity. It is a team sport, local councillors or women in leadership roles in local politics, and I think the more that members support government, has got the same age profile of it being each other and the organisation does, the more likely reasonable for young women, dropping towards the you are to get a representative group. end of the 20s like a stone, and then starting to rise Robert Knowles: I think we need to notice the again towards the end of the 40s and into 50s, and I difference between unitary authorities, which my think that is wrong. I think people are right that it colleagues are talking about, and the district authority should not be like that, and we need to find a solution in three tiers, because as the leader of a district to that. I certainly agree that we should not have the authority I get virtually no support, but I get kind of public life that restricts, by its nature, the 100 emails a day and lots of letters. Members get people who can take part in it. But I think we have to 50-odd emails a day, and I think this is something that be clear-headed about what the position is for most puts people off standing again, because they do not people, and for most people it is that it is impossible. join to be just cannon fodder and deal with emails that are automatically sent to a lot of people. It must have Q272 Chair: Perhaps we can just come on to that been very easy to be a councillor when people had to point about this group of people. As you say, quite a write a letter, but now they just send emails lot of the evidence we have had from councillors we everywhere and it is quite difficult, and that is have spoken to and from others is that there are doubtless one of the things that puts people off, councillors around in their 20s. Quite a few very able, certainly in the smaller district authorities, where there enthusiastic young councillors, and many of them do are not the support staff. not stand again. It seems in the 30s, 40s and early 50s there is then a gap, and many councils have hardly Q273 Chair: I will throw the question back to you anyone in those age groups. Then again you get older and have the other witnesses come in on the same people coming back on to the council or coming to point in a second. You are leader of the council; why council for the first time. I just wonder whether we do you not do something about it? can do anything to get that middle group of people— Robert Knowles: Because we do not have the money to get people to stay on or to come in at that age. to do anything about it. It is all very well, but we are Paul Wheeler: Just on this, because I think the point restricted in what we can spend. I do share a PA with I touched on, and I am sure my colleagues will the chief executive, but that is it, and every councillor address it as well, is this question about support. is expected to do emails at home. Perhaps they are Basically if you say to someone, “Congratulations, expecting us to be helped at home, but you are not. you have been elected; you are on your own,” which Paul Wheeler: I understand that. I have been involved is essentially what we say to a lot of councillors, it is in local politics for 40 years and I have seen the ups going to be very difficult both to that sense of purpose and downs of it, and money is tight, but one thing a about achieving things, but also running what is number of councils that I have been associated with cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 67
22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles have done is write to a local university and say, committees as such. Also, of course, these are the very “Look, we know you have keen political graduates. same people who control the mechanisms that provide They all seem to want to go and work in Westminster. what support there is to the councillors on the Why don’t some of them come and work in the local backbenches at present who might have some power council with the leader and the group?” That gives through an area committee. My solution certainly is you enormous capacity, because you are getting a to use the existing powers to give existing councillors fresh face, there is energy and I think that is one quick more powers so that they can run the services in their win of supporting groups. They are coming in to ward and they have some assistance to do that. support a political organisation, and I think it can give In certain cases, like where I live in Lenton, in inner you some of that capacity if you need to do research city Nottingham, we have an established community and it costs you nothing. But ultimately, I think you forum, started by the community, that has been in have to take this job seriously and one of my problems place for 16 years. It would be more than capable of with councillors is sometimes they do not take providing that role to the local councillors. themselves seriously. They are quite happy to have no Unfortunately, the City Council chose to duplicate us support at all. It is not so much the internal signals and to create its own community forum. So we have that sends out but the external ones. If you are going a forum that has been run by the community for the to meet your partner organisations and you have not last 16 years that is still going and then, on top of that, been properly briefed and you are wondering what you now have the City Council community forum, time the meeting starts, because you do not have a because God forbid that they should devolve power PA, I think what it says is that the politicians in this down to a community that has shown competence town are not taken seriously. Whether it is district, over the years. We took over the running of the leisure unitary or London boroughs, you do need to be taken centre when they closed it. We contributed to the ward seriously, and if you need the support, you should boundaries that now exist—a whole range of things. find it. We saved the local park as a community. I say this as Nan Sloane: The problem is that as a society we do someone who is a member of the Labour Party and I not take politicians seriously, if I may say so, and we am talking about a Labour council. do not have the conversations that think through what we want politicians to do and what the job is at either Q274 Simon Danczuk: How do we persuade national or local level. We therefore end up with employers to give councillors time off to carry out people doing a job that has grown organically, almost, their council duties? out of a set of very varying expectations. So we have Paul Wheeler: Some of them already do. A lot of the the expectation, in the case of local government, that established firms, like Tesco and so on, already do. local councillors will run the authority and will be They treat councillors like they treat people in public responsible for service delivery, raising financing, and service, and I think that is to be commended. I think strategic decisions. In the case of large authorities, the problem comes with some of the smaller these are very significant strategic decisions around organisations, where there are some real issues. If you very significant budgets indeed. But, at the same time, employ five or six people, how do you cope when they will be grassroots politicians, they will be doing someone is going to leave? There are no easy answers, surgeries every week, they will be available on a but a couple of years ago the LGA sponsored the 24-hour basis. They will live in their wards, they will Good Employer Award, which celebrated be constantly available, they will take up local causes organisations and had a fantastic response. The thing and local cases, and all of these things are very I remember—it is residual now—is that there were a valuable things for people to be doing, but in lot of firms, particularly in the north of England, who authorities like Birmingham and Leeds, for instance, said, “Having a councillor is a sign of civic pride, a where the wards are very large, they are close to bit like having a brass band, and we support that.” I impossible to do at the best of times. think it was the Redcar Mining Company: when one Certainly for women with domestic responsibilities, it of their employees became the mayor, they gave him is extremely difficult to do that and have a full-time a year off on full pay, saying, “This is a tremendous job at the same time. For many women the decision tribute to us and the town.” is not just about whether they want to be a councillor I think that is going, unfortunately, so the question is or not, but whether they can afford to be a councillor how do you do it? Even small things, like the and give up what may be a well-paid job that is conversations I have, particularly with younger bringing income into the family that is necessary. It is people: “In the modern age can you get your council partly about the culture of politics overall and the emails at work so that you can, say, at lunchtime, deal culture of our society, which at the moment finds it with that? If your organisation has video conferencing, very difficult to have the sorts of conversations about can you do some meetings during the day, particularly politics that would sort some of these issues out. long distances?” I think it is a bit like that. I think it Robert Howard: I was going to say that I am not in would help if the Government and the CBI and other favour necessarily of what I would call the people said that being a councillor is a good thing, professionalisation route, and I certainly do not agree like being in the Territorial Army is a good thing. I with the interpretation somehow that most councillors think that is the par we need to do it. It is not about are involved in strategic decision-making, because the money, and I think ultimately some people will say, plain truth is they are not, because you have portfolio “We just cannot afford to let you go,” but I think we holders or chairs of committees who have immense should encourage and celebrate the big firms like power, who make decisions without any reference to Tesco and Unilever who do this and try to find ways cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Ev 68 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles of helping the other people as well. But it can be done Q279 Simon Danczuk: You are going to increase and I think—coming back to the point Nan was them significantly. That will be a news story tomorrow saying—we have to be much more confident about in your local area. That is part of the problem, isn’t saying being a councillor is a form of public service. it? Go on. So just as you would celebrate being a magistrate and Robert Howard: I think one of the problems, if you help that, being a councillor, while political, is also listen to the vox pop out there, as I do because I am civic, and I think we have lost that in the last 20 years. active in the community, is basically that people think, unfortunately, that most of our local ward councillors Q275 Simon Danczuk: Are there any other views on who are not in a position of authority are earning getting employers to help and assist? £30,000 to £40,000 a year, whereas they are on Robert Howard: In theory, they are there to help and, £11,000 to £12,000 a year and it is a totally different albeit a long time ago, I am someone who lost my animal for them. The trouble is the local media only job twice as a result of being a councillor, once in reports the headline figure about the top ones, and yet Birmingham and once in Nottinghamshire. So I know you can go on to the council website and basically see what it is like to be on the receiving end of an a list, and the vast majority of Nottingham councillors employer deciding that they do not want to have you are on about £1,000 a month. I do not think that is a anymore. Fortunately, in such circumstances, I was lot of money, quite frankly. I certainly think that, when able to weather the storm, because when I lost my job you take on the job, for the four years you take it on as a county councillor my colleagues said, “Well, hey, you ought to get a living wage so that you can devote running the airport is a full-time job,” so basically I yourself to it, and that is why I am in favour of simply went on to allowances for the five days a week. four-year terms. It was a small income, but we survived and I had Paul Wheeler: I think you are all in the same boat— made up my mind by then that I was never going to when I say “you”, I mean MPs and councillors— work again full-time. I have a smaller pension now, because you are the front face of this. I have often but I have never worked more than three days a week, said to councillors, “Why don’t you do an allowance so that I have been able to indulge in community map for your authority and find out what the chair of activities. That has been my commitment to the the school of governors is getting and all the people in grassroots, because I believe local communities can the NHS,” because I think people would be absolutely do more for themselves. It is not about persuading you staggered to know the amount of public money being guys, because I think Parliament has done probably as spent on basically invisible people. I think you would much as it can. It is about persuading local councillors find out then that there is a good case for certainly to let go, especially those in the leadership positions, the leader of council—I think councillors are slightly because they are the ones who simply want to hang different as a body—to have a substantial increase on on to the power all the time, and yet the mechanisms the basis that they are the voice of the town as much are there, because of you, to enable more power to as the town hall. end up with people like us. I have listened to stories about councillors’ allowances for years and the one thing is, if you are going to have Q276 Simon Danczuk: Let me turn to councillors’ allowances that are realistic, you also have to have allowances. Robert, do you think councils are too performance measures that are realistic, because I afraid of public opinion to increase councillors’ think the idea of going to a council meeting three allowances? times a year and collecting £10,000 is what people get Robert Knowles: Yes, without any doubt whatsoever. really cross about. If you were working every month As long as I have been a member of my authority, for the hours that people claim across the board, I whenever the review panel comes up with figures, it think you would find that people are much more is always refused, because the time is not right. There relaxed about it. They will never be happy, but, as I is no doubt that a number of backbenchers do it at a say, you could say, “A councillor gets an allowance, loss; because the allowance is so small and then and for that they will do so many hours, and the leader subject to tax, they end up with very little. We have a is the leader of the town,” just as with elected mayors. youth council and we are all out every four years. I do not think anyone minds elected mayors getting When we recruited last year we held an evening in £60,000 to £70,000 as long as they are seen to do the the council chamber for anyone who was interested. job. But why don’t we find out how much is paid in A lot of people came and somebody dared to ask the public money across the board in a locality? I think question, “What is the allowance?” and once they we would all be surprised by who is earning a lot for were told, you could see their faces drop, and nobody very little. who came to that meeting stood for council. Q280 Simon Danczuk: Would it help if we had a Q277 Simon Danczuk: So why don’t you increase national framework? the allowances then? Paul Wheeler: The Scots and the Welsh have done Robert Knowles: We have just increased by 1%; I that, and I do not think it has helped that much, think that gave them £2,000 a year. We do intend, in because it does not answer the question about this coming year, to increase the allowances. performance. The problem about councillors, much as I love councillors, is they all want to get paid the same Q278 Simon Danczuk: But why not significantly? and no one is ever going to criticise a colleague for Robert Knowles: We will significantly. being really lazy, and I think ultimately you have to. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 69
22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles
Robert Knowles: For the record, because a lot of just picking off bits and saying, “If we do that, we things have been thrown about and I think I need to start to solve the problem.” get it quite straight, the annual allowance in my district is £2,454. If you are throwing a thousand Q282 Simon Danczuk: But are you saying they pounds a month around, I thought we better get on should not be rewarded financially? the record. Nan Sloane: No, no, I am not saying that at all. In fact, I think the problem we have at the moment is Q281 Simon Danczuk: I was a councillor in that the system is neither fish nor fowl, and we have Blackburn 15 years ago and I think the basic gone from a system when I was a councillor of not allowance was that then. I do not understand why it getting an allowance at all; you just got paid expenses has not moved on. and travel. I cannot remember what you got paid for Robert Knowles: Yes, it is well out of touch. attending a meeting, but it was not very much, but Robert Howard: That is the danger: nobody should there was good attendance at meetings because you think about putting local government into did not get paid if you did not go. Then it moved to straitjackets. Graham Allen, who I think you have had the system where you got paid a flat rate, but the flat before you, and I am a great fan—I would regard rate was not enough to make it attractive to people myself as one of his groupies—would say to you that who were going to sacrifice either their home life or you should have the Magna Carta of local government their careers or both to it. and let local government have a whole series of different models for different places. As I said in my Q283 Simon Danczuk: So are you saying it should evidence, there are councils in West Dorset where be increased? there is one councillor for 1,500 voters. You go into Nan Sloane: Personally, I think that, if you want Birmingham, where I was a councillor, and it is one somebody to do a job, you have to pay them properly councillor for 20,000 voters. The models are so to do it, and I agree that there are difficulties with different and I do not think they should all have to professionalising it, because I do not think that is what converge. I think the parliamentary reform at the the public expects or necessarily wants. moment of trying to fit it into such a tight jacket of Paul Wheeler: I am just going to put my hands on “between this and that” is impossible, and the table, because there is a councillors’ despair that communities should be allowed to be different. If you can have: that it is all doomed, no one ever votes local government is anything, it is a celebration of and all the people who are councillors are hopeless. I localism and local democracy, and so you have am not saying my colleagues are saying that, but I have heard that said. There is another view, which is different models for different places and different we should be celebrating the fact that people get levels of reward, because the work is different. elected and look for the remit of their peers, whether Simon Danczuk: You must be the first and only this is in schools or in youth councils. I think that is groupie I have met of Graham Allen, and the last one the sort of spectrum that you should see being a I will ever meet councillor on. It is not just doing it because it is the Nan Sloane: I think there are some real problems, thing to do. It is a whole spectrum, which can end up though, about treating public office as though it is a in so many different ways. job. Because, unlike a job, it has no job security, I have seen people grow as councillors who have councillors get no redundancy pay if they lose, they stopped being councillors and got a fantastic job, cannot guarantee that they will be on a front bench which they would not have got if they did not have from one year to the next, and their political parties the confidence of being in the council chamber. The very rarely take responsibility for performance problem is we just look at councillors in isolation, but management or quality control. Most political parties it is that whole spectrum of how you get more people are very poor at getting rid of councillors once it is wanting to be elected and advocate for their peers, manifestly obvious to everybody that they ought to go whether in schools, colleges, in councils, in trade and they are equally poor at recruiting, training and unions and everything else, where, frankly, if we do developing. If, in the middle of all that, we say, “But not have that, we have what I call the armchair person for this period you will have national terms and who just moans all the time, “The town is crap, the conditions and performance management, but all the council is crap,” and you never challenge them and other things that should surround that will not say, “Well, you go and do something.” But we might happen,” then I think we are setting up something need shallow pools to do it. I do take that point. artificial. I think the problem is the underlying Standing for a big council might be a thing, and the problem of us not being entirely clear about what it is point about small community councils and parish we want people to do and what we want them to councils and good town councils is the shallow pool sacrifice to do it. There is no doubt that, even if you and perhaps we have neglected that in the past, have a compliant employer and you can afford to do particularly in towns, in my experience. it for the period that you are in office, you are almost certainly having to give up any hope of a long-term Q284 David Heyes: It is interesting that each of the career, because in most cases the amount of time out four of you has displayed a different perception of that you will have will have much the same effect that what being a councillor entails. I guess in the wider repeated periods of maternity leave have for women’s community there is a massive range of perceptions. I careers in industry. So I think there needs to be some just wonder to what extent that lack of clarity, that consideration about it as a whole package rather than lack of a shared understanding of what being a cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Ev 70 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles councillor is about, puts people off standing for done by the LGA, but perhaps other people as well, election. and political parties, as Nan said, always treat Robert Knowles: I think that you have to realise that councillors as slightly odd relatives. So, is there a one size does not fit all. It is very different being a mission to inform and can it be made clear? councillor on a unitary authority to a county authority On this point about who is in charge, politics is a to a district authority, because you have different battle and it is a battle between competing interests, responsibilities. I think the public do not understand sometimes within the same party. It is very interesting that, because they will phone their district councillor that the first council that has now elected a town to complain about the potholes and their answer is, parish council is Westminster, in Queen’s Park, which “We are not the highways authority,” and this is the is the most deprived bit of Westminster. I think there situation. If you are on a unitary, you do have a wide is going to be more of that, partly for the reasons my spectrum of responsibilities, at the district you don’t, colleague was giving—that local communities run it but the public really don’t realise that. You may be better and you can take control there. Now, that might right that that would put some people off standing, add to the confusion about who is in charge, but I because perhaps they consider standing for a district think to some extent we probably need a healthy but think it would be too onerous, because they think debate about who is in charge and who can run it you have all those responsibilities. We try to make it better, because that is one of the things that I think plain, but you can only say it so many times. local government has been quite bad about—not Robert Howard: The problem is that my colleague advertising how it does things well in comparison here is talking about the difference between a district with other agencies. and a county. I promise you, you get exactly the same So there is a battle ahead. There will be some problems within a unitary authority, because our local confusion, but I think to get that right you need councillors don’t serve on the highways committee. articulate and confident representatives who are So therefore, basically, we have zebra crossings and councillors. I think the point about how the parties do other crossings that do not work, have problems and that and how the council supports them is a really lights without crossings and things like this: “I am important one, because they do exist and they exist in sorry, it is very hard to do something about this, bigger numbers than people think. because that is not my responsibility.” So even within a unitary authority, councillors representing a ward Q285 David Heyes: Nan Sloane, I think your centre kow-tow to their colleagues who have those wider is particularly focused on the lack of role models that responsibilities, which is why I have become an would attract women to come forward as candidates. advocate of mini-mayors, if you like to call them that, Is that something you can share your experience on? leading their community, working with their local Nan Sloane: There is no doubt that there are very few community, and taking responsibility for services that women at senior levels in local government and fewer relate to that area. women at senior levels in local government than there Basically, Hazel Blears, in 2007, gave councillors that are nationally, slightly unexpectedly, because you power, providing local authorities let them exercise it, but of course they are not. Local care services in would think that local government would be where Nottingham would be far better run if they were run women flourish and, in fact, it is not. There are all by the local community, but in fact what we saw sorts of reasons for that to do with the roles that where I live in Lenton was a Carelink service women are expected to fulfil in local government not provided by local people lose out when the being the roles that lead into leadership roles, as a City Council decided it was easier to have a citywide general rule. contract. When you get a citywide contract, groups The number of women councillors is gradually like Lenton Carelink lose out as they cannot compete creeping up, very, very, very gradually, but because with the big boys, whereas they were providing a they tend not to be seen as the people who lead, they service everyone loved within the local community. therefore do not get on the local news. Their activities Have your mini-mayors, have your local councillors tend not to be covered by local papers. Something running those kinds of services, and you can address like, I think, this year just on 13% of council leaders that problem, because they can manage those budgets. are women, which is very low. Women do tend to If you have problems with how you staff them, then want to see other women doing something that it is you use the city council or the local authority to practicable for women to do, and there is quite a lot basically manage the payslips and things like that. It of academic work about women and role models that is all doable, and the reason we do not do it is because suggests that women do look for role models before of control. The people up there want to control they go into activities themselves. But I think there everything; they are manage-freaks. are also a lot of other things at play. There are issues Paul Wheeler: You are right about the rich diversity about time and lack of access to childcare. I think of England, by the way, David. I always get nervous there are more women looking after elderly relatives when I cannot see a lamppost, so whatever happens than there are looking after children. That is an area in rural England, I am sure it works well, but it is not that nobody ever considers. We spend a lot of time my bag. What is the bag is the mission to inform, talking about childcare, but we do not spend a lot of because I think part of the confusion that people have time talking about who is going to look after an aged is generally they do not know what a councillor does. mother-in-law who is living in the same house, who Is he some kind of advice worker? I think there is a is as great a problem in terms of the need for cover. massive mission to inform that should be, frankly, So I think there is an issue about role models, but I cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 71
22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles think it comes further down the list than a whole string hands on the levers of power. That is what that entails, of other things. and it has been referred to several times already: the Robert Howard: There is a contradiction here, impotence of backbench councillors and their inability because if you are involved at a community level to make a difference. Is that a disincentive to people anywhere, I lay odds that the majority of people becoming councillors? involved are going to be women. Certainly in my Paul Wheeler: Just before everyone goes on about community the people keeping it going in terms of the bringing back the committee system, I just want to community organisations are women, and they are not say you have to be really careful about this because, just providing the tea. They are chairing the meetings, in my experience, councillors who want to achieve they are looking after the finance, they are running something generally can, whether they are backbench, services, and certainly men like me are the exception, opposition, majority party, whatever. They just need quite frankly, when it comes to community activity. the tools to do it. Now, clearly, if they are part of the So, in that respect, these are the people who ought to majority group, that helps, although if you are one of come forward. 84 members of the Manchester Labour Party group it I can tell you, from conversations that I have had, one might be a bit more difficult because, frankly, you of the reasons they don’t come forward is that they cannot fit in a room these days; there are problems realise they can achieve more being active in their about big majorities. local community than they can sitting on the But I do think there is the point about giving people backbench. Certainly one woman who I would have the tools to do their job. Not everyone in a council, voted for would have stood as an independent. The thankfully, wants to be the leader or in the cabinet. reason she did not stand was because the cost of a For the reasons that we have outlined, a lot of people minimal campaign over the two years before the cannot afford to give their jobs up, but that 88% do election was probably going to be a couple of want to do a good job for their locality, so how do you thousand quid for her in terms of producing the basic help them? What is absolutely critical to get across is material, and then what would she get? She would it is not about the town hall anymore. 80% of public basically get a life on the backbenches because she services are delivered by people other than the town would be isolated by the majority party. She would hall, but they still need a democratic overview. How have made an exceptional councillor. She would have do you get local councillors championing people in lots of interesting things to say, but she was not part of terms of policing, the environmental improvements a group and that is where the single member ward— that are done by a lot of charities now, and academy smaller—has a lot of advantages. I bet in that situation schools? The biggest bête noire of all is housing a lot more women would come forward, because they associations, which, in my experience, are completely would see that they could really do something. Inner immune from any democratic reference, because they city Lenton would not be the thriving community it all think they are businesses, and yet they often somehow remains without women doing things. So provide the worst service of all. So, if you have a they are there doing it already and that is the good local councillor championing across that whole confidence that you should build on. range, it is a very satisfying job, and the people who Nan Sloane: It is perhaps a mistake to assume that, do it that way really enjoy being councillors and do because women choose one form of activity, they not want to go in the cabinet. should automatically be funnelled towards another. Nan Sloane: I don’t think the prospect of being on Politics and community work are not the same thing, the backbenches puts people off, for the simple reason however much we would all like them to be. They are that I don’t think people know they will be on not and, for a great many women, one of the key backbenches, because most people do not know how issues is time. If what you are doing is in your own local government works and many people who stand community and on your doorstep, there is much more for election do not know how local government time in which to do it than if you have to get in your works. It is sad but true. I think most people who have car and travel 60 miles to a council meeting, sit there spent any time trying to get people to stand know that for three hours and then travel back again. There is very few people, even in political parties, have a clear direct correlation between the representation of understanding of what they would be doing were they women and the distance they have to travel to do the to be elected. It is a bigger problem that people get representing, so women are far more likely to be on there and find themselves, particularly as Paul says, town and parish councils than they are to be on county on backbenches in large groups with large majorities, councils, and that is true across the country. So I think where I think there are some real issues. it is true that there are lots of people, both men and I would not say go back to the committee system, women, in communities who would make very good because I don’t think you should go back. You cannot councillors, but that does not necessarily translate go back to things you have discarded. I agree with through, and I do not think we should be expecting Paul about what the ideal is, but I do not think we are it to. achieving the ideal, and there are certainly authorities where the backbench members have very little to do Q286 David Heyes: Can I just put one last point to and therefore don’t necessarily stand again. I think it each of the panel members? 88% of councillors say is more about losing people after one or two terms that a desire to serve their community was their reason than it is about them not standing in the first place. for coming forward. I find that a very convincing Robert Knowles: I think a lot of that is very true, but figure; I am surprised it is not even higher than that. again at a district level people come on perhaps with The reality is that to do that you need to get your just one interest. A lot of the members are on because cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Ev 72 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles of planning, usually to stop it, if we are honest about Several parties have advertised for councillors, and this, and out of my 57 members—because I have four again the old guard in whatever party was absolutely area planning committees for the different parts of the horrified about this idea of advertising for new district—50 of the 57 are on. So you cannot say they councillors, but loads of people came forward and it are always on the backbenches. They do get a say in was really interesting. I did an event at the LGA on quite a lot of things and they are allowed to indicate Saturday and there were over 100 women who want every year what they want to be on, and we usually to be Labour councillors in London, most of whom please everybody. So being a backbencher does not have just recently joined the party. Now, coming back remove all power, and you should not think that. to your point, that may be stopped by a variety of Robert Howard: I am not so sure about the phrase, as forces, but that number of people expressing an your own evidence found, that 88% of councillors say interest is quite good. Now, my point is it depends they are there to serve their local community. I think how professionally it is run. If there is some a lot of people, unfortunately, get elected to serve their professionalism as opposed to vested interest, you do party, and there is a difference between the two, quite get good people in. frankly. One of the things that interest me, and it is becoming a growing trend in local government, is the Q288 James Morris: Just on that point, I think, Nan, fact that in Nottingham 70% of councillors don’t give you made some remarks in your submissions about— their home address. They give the contact address as how can we put it—the still rather antediluvian the council house, and in Birmingham certainly the attitude of the political parties towards women. Is that proportion is even higher. It is interesting that in the something that you can justify, and how do you think neighbouring smaller authorities of Greater it needs to change? Nottingham of Rockstone and Rushcliffe, 100% of Paul Wheeler: Not on the basis of Saturday. councillors give their home address. It is the smaller authorities where councillors are still happy and proud Q289 James Morris: No, no, but in the process by to show that they live in that community, whereas which the enthusiasm then gets drained away by the everyone wants to be contacted at Loxley House, or a political process. great many do. I think that this is a growing trend Nan Sloane: I don’t think there is a shortage of within local government. Councillors are distancing women who would be interested in standing. It is not, themselves from the community because they feel I think, national and certainly not across the board— pretty powerless a lot of the time. it varies from place to place—but there are certainly I am afraid I do disagree: I think most people who get local parties of all descriptions who, as Paul says, elected know full well what their role is going to be think, “It’s our club and we don’t want it changing.” on that council. Robert and I were talking about this But there is also this perception that the electorate is outside. It may well be different on a council where very conservative, and that the electorate has you struggle to get people to stand, but in Nottingham problems voting for women. So you will often hear people say to you, “Well, we’re all in favour of having we do not have that problem. You have plenty of more women in public life. We’re all in favour of people, because it is an urban area where people want having women candidates, but you have to understand to be councillors, and I think they stand knowing full that people here won’t vote for women.” Now, there well and a lot of people do not stand because they do is no evidence that the electorate has a problem voting not want to be condemned to the backbenches. for women, but there is evidence that political parties Chair: We need to move on now. Before we go on to on the ground have a problem fielding women the next set of questions, I will just say I am now candidates. I think that is less than it used to be, and conscious of the time, so both colleagues asking it is also a function of the fact that the average age of questions and the witnesses, please be as brief as people in political parties is higher than that of the possible, because we want to get some more subjects electorate, and that the membership of political parties in and discussed. is itself less diverse than the electorate.
Q287 James Morris: Just homing in on this question Q290 James Morris: Just two quick questions for of the role of the political parties, do you think that Paul, because I think you talked about wanting to the selection procedures and processes that the party establish a local democracy foundation to, I presume, machines use are part of the problem here? Despite promote the idea of the role of councillors. How do the enthusiasm of certain councillors or people you think that is going to help? I think you also talked wanting to be councillors, the party machines narrow about the need for political parties to work much down selection criteria. Are they part of the problem? closer with the community voluntary sector to broaden Paul Wheeler: The LGA run a campaign called “Be the pool of candidates. a councillor”, which is excellent in many ways and it Paul Wheeler: I appreciate what the Chairman says does look at all the things. Interestingly, all parties run about being brief, so I will be brief. When you look something that is very similar, having looked at it. I at the Hansard Society here, it is absolutely fantastic am only allowed to be a member of one party, but I about promoting parliamentary democracy, debates have checked with my colleagues and it is very much and stuff, and people get that. There is no equivalent a process, first of all, of winnowing down. There is a in the local government world to promote local great suspicion that people who want to be councillors politics and the fact that you can make a difference. are just activists, so there is that initial suspicion: why Obviously, we have been quoting a lot of examples of do you want to join our club when no one else does? where you cannot make a difference. There are lots of cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 73
22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles people out there who have changed their lives and Nan Sloane: I do. I think women are different from their communities’ lives by being a councillor, but we any other group because women are the majority— never get a chance to say that. So that mission to 52% of the population is female—and I certainly think inform is really important. that positive action, whether it is in the form of all- In relation to the second thing, there is a tradition in women shortlists or in one of the many other forms the Labour Party that trade unions will sponsor and that exist, is the single most effective mechanism that encourage their members to be both MPs and has been found in this or any other country for councillors; it goes back 100 years. My take is: why changing the composition of any body. can’t we have that in a wider sense? This point about What is insulting to women is the fact that they cannot being nervous about coming forward is true, but what get through on merit, not the fact that the playing field if your local church or your residents’ association is on quite a steep slope and needs levelling up. Where said, “We’re going to work with our residents and give I would like to be is in the position where we do not them some of the skills to be councillors.” Hopefully, need to look at artificial mechanisms to make our a council could do that. We have just had Local public bodies more diverse. But in the absence of that Democracy Week and several councils are doing diversity arising naturally, we either have to decide precisely that. I did an event in Oldham and there that it does not matter, which is fine—if we decide were something like 70 young people there who were that, then we should stop saying the opposite—or, if saying, “What’s this business about being a we decide that it does matter, we have to look councillor?” So it can be done. seriously at the mechanisms that we know work to achieve it. We know it is not enough simply to wish that it were so and encourage people and say to Q291 James Morris: Just as a final question, isn’t women the sorts of things I hear said all the time: there an important distinction, though, between people “There, there, dear. We know you aren’t very wanting to get engaged in a community role that they confident, but we’ll give you a lot of help and support are used to and that then becoming a directly political and you can do it.” That is basically saying there is role? Can that sometimes be problematic because something wrong with women, when in fact women people have the wrong expectations about what they are well able to be councillors and well able to lead are being expected to do? councils. Paul Wheeler: Well, obviously people won’t join a party they don’t believe in, but we are right to say Q293 Bob Blackman: So how would you have this that the vast majority of councillors are members of implemented? The authority that covers my area, for political parties and they will continue to be until you example, has almost a majority of women as change the electoral system. But what you are saying councillors, so presumably we are exceptional. to people is, “It’s a light touch thing,” in the sense of Nan Sloane: You are indeed, yes. being a member of a party. “You don’t have to sign Bob Blackman: But if you have a position whereby up to anything, but go along and find out. If you agree there were no female councillors, would you have to with their values, go and see if you could be a have a system of all-women shortlists until such time councillor for them.” Certainly for young people as you broke the mould? under 25, I think they are minded to do that. They Nan Sloane: In an ideal world, personally, I would go won’t go to ridiculous branch meetings and all the for what many countries go for, which is legally stuff that the parties insist they do, but they do want binding requirements for parties to field a given to represent their communities and you have to find a percentage of candidates of both sexes. So in France, way of channelling that energy. I have seen several it is 50%. people who have become young councillors and really enjoyed it, but not in a way that kills them by Q294 Bob Blackman: Would you do that for spending hours doing silly things in a room with four different ethnic minorities as well, because in many other people, all of whom hate each other. areas they are severely under-represented? Chair: I thought going to branch meetings was a trial Nan Sloane: They are indeed, but I think that you to see if you could survive council meetings. cannot take a tool that has been developed to deal with Heather Wheeler: We are learning so much about the problem of the under-representation of a majority what you guys get up to. and apply it in the same format to a minority. Paul Wheeler: I think yours is not dissimilar, by the way. Q295 Bob Blackman: Well, there are parts of London, for example, which are now ethnic Q292 Bob Blackman: The average councillor at the majorities, yet the councils will be overwhelmingly moment is white, male and aged 60. Nan, you are white in their composition, so the same thing applies. obviously championing the cause of women and Nan Sloane: Yes, and I think that we do need encouraging women to stand for election, but there mechanisms to deal with that, but I do not think that are other views on this. Some people have suggested a binding mechanism across the country would be to us in the discussions we have had that if you have able to address it in the same way because, as you all-women shortlists, for example, it is an insult to rightly say, the position in parts of London is very women and says they cannot get through on their own different from what the position might be in rural merits; others have said that if you had all-BME Cornwall, for instance. The problem there is that shortlists, it would be an insult to those communities. people have found a mechanism that works and Do you have a view on what should be done? therefore want to transfer it wholesale on to different cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Ev 74 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles situations, and I think we need to look at those 2007. That basically gives the power to local situations on their own merits. councillors to run all the services that appertain to their ward. Imagine doing that to councillors, giving Q296 Bob Blackman: Paul, you suggested another them far more than you would get with an urban tier of neighbourhood councils to encourage people to parish council. They would need someone to run it. I think of all the fantastic committee clerks that I come forward, presumably as apprentice councillors. worked with in my time, who were wonderful Paul Wheeler: Well, it already exists, to be fair. Most non-party services. So basically, if the councillor for of the country has town and parish councils; it is just that area changed, the assistant would remain in post. that the urban areas do not. They would still continue the support. All their knowledge would pass on to the councillor who Q297 Bob Blackman: So do you think urban areas followed them. should have parish councils or the equivalent? Paul Wheeler: I do, probably over the dead bodies of Q299 Bob Blackman: Paid by the council and most elected councillors at the moment, for the appointed by the council, not by the councillor. reasons that we have stated. The fact is that Robert Howard: Yes. In fact, the person might be Westminster has started. I think could be a really good appointed, first of all, by the councillor. I trust training ground, but it could also be something in councillors to make non-partisan appointments. They itself. Brent and all these others could really do with don’t want everyone they appoint to the job to have a much more local representative structure and people the same view. You appoint the best person for the could dip in. This is not a full-time job. It is nothing job, and I believe most councillors are more than like a full-time job. It is working with your capable of doing that. neighbours, but having some revenue, which is the important bit, and some powers. That could Q300 Bob Blackman: Moving on. Robert, do you revolutionise local politics, but you would have to do have a view that your councillors should have a paid official to answer all their emails and deal with their it over what are very, very vested interests at the correspondence? moment. Robert Knowles: Certainly cabinet members probably should, because it is becoming a position where it is Q298 Bob Blackman: I am coming to you, Robert, virtually impossible to keep on top of it. Some of the about something else. Your view is that every other members probably would not want it, to be quite councillor should have a paid assistant. Would you honest, because they do not put in that level of trade this off? It is not going to be a magical answer. commitment and probably would feel that was Instead of having multi-member wards, would you pushing them to do so. have just one member per ward but they can have a Just going back briefly, I am sitting here very paid assistant to go with them? jealously, because I hear about all these selections. We Robert Howard: Yes. I like the idea of single member run round a few days before the election trying to fill wards, but to come back to the urban parish, as the gaps, and not only my party, because at the last someone who has been actively involved in a election, out of 57, 19 were returned unopposed, partnership forum within a ward, I think that is the including an 18-year-old woman in the no-hope seat way forward. It does all of the things that have been for us, but unopposed. So I am quite jealous of all suggested in terms of providing people with these selection committees and hard times. opportunities to be apprentices and what have you, and it gives that councillor a root in the community. Q301 Bob Blackman: Clearly you are not paying They would spend a lot more time working in their enough. The final word, Nan: if councillors had community. They could have a base in the local assistants in the way that has been described, would community centre and it would be about far more than that have an effect on women standing, because then you would have a position, presumably, that would being a parish councillor. I know how difficult it is. take away some of those barriers? Responsibility for The namesake here, Dick Knowles, was leader of childcare, etc., we know can be a barrier. Birmingham City Council for many years. He was the Nan Sloane: I assume you are not appointing the man who, in 1972, converted me to the idea of assistant to go and pick the children up at 3 o’clock neighbourhood councils, and he used to say, “Bob, or 5 o’clock or deal with the days off sick and all the they have to have more power than parish councils,” rest of it. and it took him until the year 2000 to get the Bob Blackman: No, but to deal with the council New Frankley Parish Council in Birmingham created. work, etc. Even now they are still talking about wanting to get Nan Sloane: Of course it would help. It is bound to more power. He was actively involved in the help, because it is bound to take some of the pressure Association for Neighbourhood Democracy, and I off. But I think that the same issues that apply to supported that idea then and I support it now. It is women at work would still apply. If you were the about them being able to run all the services that director of a company and you had a PA and you had appertain to their area, as appear in the legislation. So childcare responsibilities, you still have the childcare that it is read into the record, I am just going to give responsibilities or other domestic responsibilities and you the thing. It is Part 15, paragraph 185 of the Local you still need coping mechanisms for dealing with Government and Public Involvement in Health Act that, and you would as a councillor with an assistant. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 75
22 October 2012 Paul Wheeler, Nan Sloane, Robert Howard and Councillor Robert Knowles
Of course it is going to help because you are then less are fine, because one of the ways to sell this to young likely to be doing your 100 emails at one o’clock in people is: “This is part of your career development.” the morning, which is what people tend to do, but I Where else at the age of 22, 23 are you going to be don’t think that is the solution. It is right that any running a big organisation, which is potentially cabinet member is clearly going to need proper possible? Where are you going to get that experience? administrative help. I am not sure that it helps us If you sell that right, employers are interested in that. resolve the problem of what councillors are for, if you So I think training works because, first of all, it is see what I mean. I think it is an administrative needed and the parties should do it. It is also needed assistance, but it does not necessarily get us any because that is the way you can attract people, and it further in deciding what the job really is and what we is also a way of saying to young people, particularly want people to do. at the moment when there are very few jobs available I am more attracted, I have to say, by the idea of with that level of experience, “Come and do it for four different levels of getting people in and of developing or five years and see what you think. If you like it, people’s understanding and developing different carry on. If not, we will be able to transfer it for you.” strategies for dealing with the challenges than simply But we are millions of years away from that, because saying, “Let’s employ some more people,” if only everyone else thinks councillors are amateurs, and the because the person who was employed and who was political parties have to start to change their approach. there permanently when the councillor changed would Nan Sloane: I agree with him. be the person with the power in the community. Robert Howard: I think councils ought to pay for the training of anyone who is interested. In Nottingham, Q302 Chair: Just very briefly, finally, should there councillors give 10% of their allowances towards the be a training provision for councillors? Should they party election pot for campaigning. I do not see why have training before they become councillors, as they could not give 2% of their attendance allowances candidates? On the issue of performance measures, to help pay for expenses to run training. It should be should it be a requirement for all councillors to have open to anyone. It should not be a condition of being their performance measured? Who should do the a candidate. That is anti-democratic. But, as I say, the training and performance measures? important thing is that you open it up to anyone, Paul Wheeler: I will be very brief. Councillors because it is not just political parties. We want local already get trained if they want to go on planning and government to be there for anyone who wants to everything else; that is a statutory requirement and stand, and my argument is: smaller wards, one they do that very well. If you are asking me who member, give independents more chance of winning. should do the training, it is the political parties. If they Robert Knowles: I agree with Paul regarding the represent a political party, they should do more. I political parties. It stops the day that you are elected, don’t know if the Lib Dem guy is here, but with the and I think that is poor, but certainly as a Council I exception of the Liberal Democrats the political will not allow people to sit on statutory committees, parties are dreadful. They just take councillors’ money such as planning and licensing, unless they have and give them nothing in return, so the LGA have attended the training. The Council provides the filled the gap, and I will leave this with you; these are training. It provides standard training. In fact, it some of the programmes that the LGA do. These are provides a complete package of training, so that it for talented councillors. They normally do one a year. does not matter which party you have come from; you But I do think the parties have to completely change get the same training to perform your duty according their approach, because these are the frontlines of to the law. politics and I think the councillors have to take them Chair: Thank you all very much indeed for coming seriously. The councils should do more too, and the here this afternoon. LGA and the Leadership Academy and things like that
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Councillor Alycia James, Lancaster City Council, Councillor Rowan Draper, Stafford Borough Council, Councillor Simon Killane, Wiltshire Council, and Councillor Marianne Overton, Lincolnshire County Council and North Kesteven District Council, gave evidence.
Q303 Chair: Good afternoon and welcome to the you could also address the issue about whether second part of our evidence session this afternoon. As independent councillors really have the same I said to the first witnesses, if something has been said motivations as those who represent political parties. that you agree with, you can just say you agree with Just before you begin, for the record could you say it; you do not have to repeat it at the same length. We who you are and the organisation you represent? obviously have a certain amount of time and we need Simon Killane: I am Simon Killane and I am the to get many questions in and subjects covered. Just to Wiltshire unitary councillor for Malmesbury. I am also begin with, perhaps each of you could say what a Malmesbury town councillor. motivated you to stand for election as a councillor. Chair: Please answer the question, and then we will Has it lived up to what you thought it was going to go on down the line. be? Have your expectations been met? While Simon Killane: I had no idea, when I became a Councillor Overton is answering that point, perhaps councillor, what a councillor’s job involved— cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Ev 76 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton absolutely no idea. I call myself an accidental me of how the public can work together to genuinely councillor. What was the other part of your question? make a difference. Also, it made me realise that some councillors are not there specifically to represent, or Q304 Chair: Did it live up to expectations? But you they do not see that they are there to specifically didn’t have any expectations, so it wouldn’t. represent, the people in their area. So we ran a Simon Killane: Because we converted from district campaign and it really gave me a good lesson. and county to unitary, I have not been in any political Whether it is what I expected, I think largely yes. I party, so I have a very non-political background. I think the skills of analysing information and being joined the Liberal Democrats a short period before I able to cope with quite large amounts of data and was made a councillor. I was a community activist, so come to not necessarily the same conclusion that has I am totally community, very non-political, and so been handed to you on a plate is very important, as I when I became a councillor I did it probably from a found through the whole process. But I think what I do-gooder’s point of view. I thought it would give me find even now, after some years, still quite shocking more opportunity, more power, to deal with things in is the nastiness of tribalistic party politics that can my community, but I had absolutely no idea what it sometimes be applied, which does not necessarily entailed and I think a lot of people who went into the inspire support and interest from the community, unitary who were existing councillors did not really either in their representatives or in turning out to vote know what a unitary councillor’s role would entail. at the next election. Alycia James: My name is Alycia James. I am from Lancaster City Council. My motivation was partly Q305 Heather Wheeler: We have talked a lot today because one of my friends, who is a councillor in about whether you are leaders in your patch or Cambridgeshire, inspired me, to an extent, and also I whether you aspire to be a leader or something like looked at the community and thought perhaps I could that, perhaps, on a council—the leader of a group. But do better than the previous councillor. She had regarding the changes in the localism agenda and the stopped going to meetings and things like that, and I changes to the role of being a councillor, do you think thought, “They are not being represented; perhaps I that is change for the better? Can you be leaders in can do that job and do it better.” your patch or are you? Is that what you should be? As to whether it has lived up to my expectations, I Simon Killane: I did not answer some of the earlier think in ways it has exceeded and in other ways it has question, which links into this, which is I think the fallen behind what I had hoped. Being in opposition, council role and my role as councillor is fantastic. I I suppose it does not help at times and it can be very, am a product designer by trade. It is probably the most very frustrating, but if you want to get something interesting job I have ever done in my life, and the done, I think if you are determined enough you can most difficult job from a support point of view. So it do it. is very difficult to do the job, for very basic reasons, Rowan Draper: I am Rowan Draper and I am from finance and so on, but it is a wonderful job to do. Stafford Borough Council. The reason why I decided When it comes to localism, in our area we are part of to stand I think was very much influenced by my the whole process of neighbourhood planning and we experience as a student union executive officer at university. It instilled the values of the public service have set up a neighbourhood plan. We are working in I am doing now as a councillor. It gave me hands-on a very non-political way. We have a 21-member experience with an organisation delivering service and steering group, which leads in the community from trying to improve the experiences of members of that the residents’ association, chamber of commerce, to organisation. I completely agree with everything schools. It is working fantastically well. The Deputy Alycia said about how it has lived up to expectations Leader of Wiltshire Council is Conservative and I am and the highs and lows and the rest of it. a Liberal. We are all working together, throwing our Marianne Overton: Thank you. Marianne Overton; I politics out of the window and working for our sit on Lincolnshire County Council and North community. We have huge support from the Kesteven District Council as an independent community. We use the internet, we use Facebook; we councillor, and I am leader of the opposition on the have 740 people in our Facebook group. There are County Council. I stood because our community was lots of difficult things. There is nastiness and politics cross. We felt that we were not being heard. We at play, but in reality it has been kept well at bay. We wanted a bypass around one of the villages, not my are very proud that as a community we are grasping own, because the thundering traffic was severely the localism agenda and trying to make a real impacting on the lives of those individuals who lived difference, and what we are saying is we want to there. We felt that we could not seem to get anywhere, decide where and how we have the housing that has and eventually we realised that our councillor was not been assigned to us through the core strategy. So the supporting us. When we challenged him, he said it Government policy is saying we have to have housing. was because he was a party member and the only We are not Nimbys. We are dealing with some very objector was the chairman of the Conservative Party, challenging communities and we are going to deliver so we were very unhappy about that. He said, “Well, on this and we are going to make it happen. So, for anyway, nobody stood against me last time, so I’m all us, it is extremely exciting and it is all working very you’ve got.” So we said, “Well, that’s the last time well. We are embracing our parish councils and so on, nobody stands against you.” So we did take a seat and looking at our area as a resource area, getting rid of we got our bypass eventually, so it was an example to the tribalistic boundaries of parties and of the parishes, cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 77
22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton coming together and working to do something really huge effort in bringing the community to agree and to fantastic, and it is working really well. really work towards the single goal, and it has been Alycia James: I am Deputy Leader of the enormously successful in that. Conservative Group on the City Council, the second I think the way in which we have to do that means biggest group, and I think leadership in that position that we do need to reach out to all different parts of is very different to leadership in the community. With the community so very much. I have just got a localism, I personally think that I should not be at the business forum going and, in fact, I do not know if forefront of every single thing within the community. you are allowed to take items, but I have brought a I should be playing a role more of a facilitator and newsletter, which covers some of the issues that we helping them access the resources rather than driving are working on. But there are all kinds of ways in it all the time and saying, “I am going to take charge which we can bring groups of the community together, of the allotments committee,” or something. I should discuss issues with them, so that we can look at area empower them to do it and help them along the way. we have, look at the aspirations and the problems of I think that is a better way to take that localism into the people there, and that is our agenda. So we are your community. working very much towards representing what the Rowan Draper: I would agree with what Alycia has people want and working towards those goals. just said again, and I would highlight it with an example one of my colleagues gave to me. There was Q307 Heather Wheeler: I will finish off with a quick the potential closure of a local public house in her jog through, but perhaps on this occasion, ward, and the story that she told me about how she Councillor Killane, I will come to you last. Alycia, worked with the community was that, rather than do you think there are differences between two-tier writing a letter to the council and all these various authorities and being a county councillor or a district bodies—they will look at it and go, “Councillor, that’s or borough councillor? it,”—if we have 17 or 100 letters and a petition and Alycia James: I am a city councillor at the moment, campaign action, any decision-makers are going to which is a borough councillor in our area, and I am, look on that in a very different way. hopefully, running for county in May and there are If I may talk about the tribalistic nature of party big differences between the two. I also have parish politics, a lot of my experience came from student councils within mine, which I go to quite a lot. The union politics. My university was perhaps one of the problem is the public do not know the difference few that did not allow slights in any way, shape or between them anyway, so I get sent issues that are form. So I think it is very interesting to hear now, parish council and county council issues. The key, to having been elected since 2011, the comments from an extent, is being able to work together with your colleagues about how the tribalism can come into county councillors, of whatever party. I cannot play. I think it is really interesting, because I was compare it necessarily to a unitary, because I do not elected twice for a year period and we spent two years have that experience, but they are two very, very fighting over ideas and policy, and I think that, for different roles that do overlap. me, what a party says to my community, to my Rowan Draper: They are different and I agree that a members, is what my values are, where broadly I will lot of the electorate don’t know the difference. If I look at issues and how I will give support. I agree could highlight anything, it would be the necessity for that there are examples of animosity and tribalism in citizenship education, not only in schools, but perhaps debates and, unfortunately, if you have closed off county councils and borough councils should be doing council chambers and members of the public don’t that as part of their offer to residents. The reality, for attend, that is what is going to happen, because whilst me, is that in majority of instances I come across on the cat is away the mice will play. So I think it is the doorstep, they do not know where the services are really interesting to hear the dynamics, because we going; they do not know who provides their bins and have a small independent and one Liberal in the group who provides their schools. If that is one example, and, generally, they do not get involved in the party then how can you determine the political ideology and debate, so I just think it is interesting. what you support as a person? Do you believe in small Marianne Overton: The Localism Bill of course has state? Do you believe in social justice? If we have that brought the police and crime commissioners, but you sort of political illiteracy within districts, cities and are not referring to that, presumably. the country, where is the direction going? Marianne Overton: Community literacy is an Q306 Heather Wheeler: No, no. I want to know interesting point; one of the ways of dealing with that about your views. is to have very good communication with your Marianne Overton: As a local leadership role, yes, electorate. I do a monthly newsletter, for example, and absolutely. I am not sure how much the Bill has those kinds of things. It does mean, I hope, that people helped, particularly, but we were certainly doing a lot in my area have some idea about what being a of it already and it is a great opportunity, being a councillor involves; what kind of issues we work councillor, and we have had tremendous success with together with the community on, what kinds of drawing the community together to be more cohesive successes we have had and what we are still working towards goals that they really want and giving them on. I hope that that is one way of, if you like, the sense that things are possible. We have just finally educating and involving. But with the two tiers, completed for one village a new village hall, for clearly the efficiency would be better if you combined example, which cost over a million, and it has been a them. We have worked very hard on combining back cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Ev 78 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton office services so that it is straightforward and we can I think a unitary in itself is a far better idea than the get those efficiencies. However, I think the most tiered system, but you have to have a root and branch. important thing is that people have good You have to make sure that you can delegate the representation and a good connection with their power down from the unitary, like in a military councillor. That is one of the difficulties of giving situation where each level understands what their role councillors a very big area. I have 10,500 people in is and is empowered to do what they need to do. The my area, but I also have six district councillors; it is danger with a cabinet system is that you will end up about working together. If you reduce the number of with 10 cabinet ministers with a budget of nearly councillors by reducing the councils and so on, it is a £1 billion for which maybe three or four of the cabinet big job if you only have one person in that area. When positions are the important ones, running a whole you think all those people could ring you on a Sunday county and no one knowing who they are. night and tell you their bin has not been emptied or There is a whole load of issues with the democracy of something, it would be difficult. the process, but also, finally, I would say that the unitary council’s role is much greater than the district Q308 Heather Wheeler: Obviously, you joined the or the county. If I was a district councillor, I would council after the change to unitary. have had two other people and I would have travelled Simon Killane: Yes. I will explain it for unitaries and five or 10 miles to a local district council meeting in I know a lot about districts and counties; I will give the evening. All of the council meetings at Wiltshire you a little synopsis of the good and bad. We have a Council are held during the day, so if I want to go to unitary covering a population of 500,000 people and a meeting I have to give up a day’s pay. My role as a a huge geographic area—rural, town, military; the unitary councillor is so demanding that I take a day whole diverse range of different populations. In many unpaid off my job. For me, as a working person with ways, our unitary is really a mini-government and three young children, a mortgage and a house, it is a people are very distant from it. It is in Trowbridge completely unfriendly place for me to be. Our kind which, in some cases, might be 50 or 60 miles away are not welcome there at all. That is one of the reasons from where people live. There is a real problem with why women and others do not go in there. They don’t linking what goes on locally with the unitary. People go in there because of the tribal politics; because of the egotistical or egomaniacal attitude that comes out; do not really see it. There is no visual representation. and because of the constant PR from the political It is not like Parliament where you see people in parties that smashes and bashes the council. When the Westminster. That is number one. council does something good, the opposition goes in Number two, we had 260 councillors; we now have and trashes it. People in the street do not really 98. There is a democracy issue. When you shrink understand it; they just look at the whole organisation down the number of councillors and they are on pretty as being rubbish. When it comes to finances, really, in much the same sort of process financially and so on, my council, if you are rich, if you are retired, if you but that person has taken on the role of two districts have time on your hands and if you are a party and a county in their area and a population of 5,000, political maniac, you are in. If you are 99% of the rest how do you make sure they can possibly do it? I of the population, who provide all the money and that believe no thought has gone into that. taxes and work, forget about it. Do not go in there, The other issue is the parish and town councils feeling unless you are crazy, which I am often told I am. Now, disenfranchised, because they may now have a role of with new media and all these things that I am hanging baskets and a couple of parks, but they do interested in, you will find councillors have to be not see that they have a role when it comes to being much more in contact. I do not hide from the in power to do things. Our council is addressing that. electorate and so I am answering questions, doing They are bringing in these things called “area boards” things and getting involved. Taking on something like and they are trying to empower 16 regional area neighbourhood planning, which is a huge, momentous boards to do various tasks and delegate powers. Not task and chairing an organisation is something that is enough has been done. The budgets are tiny: really demanding on your time. I spend 60 hours a £50,000 or something like that. The area boards also week between my day job and my council job. I have tend to often be in competition with the town and three young children. I go home in the evening, take parish councils and the town and parish councillors an hour off, go straight up to my PC and go to evening do not see a role. It is like they have been jettisoned meetings. I will go to meetings in parish councils and in a dinghy and told, “Off you go; there is no role for so on. you anymore”. It is about trying to bring them in and I will not ramble on, but the interesting thing is the change what they are doing. Also, the parish councils money element. It has nothing to do with money. It is see themselves as very legislative, but they have really to do with a pivotal point at which, no matter what no legislative powers. People look at the mayor of the you do, you need to have a basic resource to do your town and they look at the town council and they see job. If you are in a company earning a reasonably them as the ones making all the decisions when they decent salary and you can take time off, or if you are are not; the unitary councillor is really the one in the self-employed, it is fine, but there comes a time in driving seat. Backbench or no backbench, he or she is your job when you say, “I need to go to meetings. I the guy linking in to the unitary and helping to drive need to go to a meeting on Monday, on Wednesday the process of trying to get services and so on. There and on Friday.” No employer will allow you to do is a real democratic issue with unitaries. that. I nearly lost my job because of it. I had to cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 79
22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton challenge my employer and say, “No, I want to do this is a very strange council. It is 24 Labour, eight Green, and I will go through the legal system to challenge 15 Conservatives, 10 Morecambe Bay independents, you,” and they relented, but when they relented I two free independents and an independent knew my career at my company was finished and my independent, so it is quite a complicated one. career as a product designer was gone. There is a However, if you do put forward a good argument, then whole pile of issues here about the support that even if, say, the Labour Party does not agree with you, councillors get, which are not being addressed in any you have a good chance with the rest of them; or if way. I find it a fantastic, interesting role and I am very the Morecambe Bay independents do not agree with successful at it. I will not ramble on any more. you, sometimes the Labour Party agrees with you. It does work if you have got a good argument, even Q309 David Heyes: I was going to ask you about the in opposition. opportunities you have to influence the direction of policies, but I think you have all covered that to some Q312 David Heyes: It is force of personality and extent in the answers you have given already. I would putting a good argument together. Is that your like you to help me understand how your individual experience? authorities have devolved responsibilities down to Simon Killane: For me, the local issues and the local local committees or to individual councillors and how stuff and even now with the national stuff and the much control that gives over local budgets. planning and so on, it is very easy. I am in a Marianne Overton: The County Council has given a Conservative-dominated rural area; I am the only budget to every councillor, which they can spend on Liberal councillor in that area. Locally, we have all good works within their communities, perhaps to managed to pull together and do some wonderful, trigger other investment as well. It is helpful. fantastic things. With the council itself, as a backbencher, I cannot get to County Hall in Q310 David Heyes: How much is that? Trowbridge because if I go there I lose my income. I Marianne Overton: It is £2,000 each of two years. It have to use all my holiday entitlement for my job. I came from a councillors’ allowance that we declined. use it carefully; I go to certain meetings that I can go We declined an allowance and put that money in a to and I will go to night meetings in the evening. I am pot, which was then shared out equally among all disenfranchised. I am disenfranchised from trying to councillors, because it already had been budgeted. go for the leadership of the opposition, because my Now we give that to community organisations. That wife does not have a big income to support me and I works well. It is quite limited. do not have loads of money. When it comes to county, I think the best way that we can influence, as frontline I am totally disenfranchised. Locally, I can get loads councillors, is by putting together carefully-researched of things done and we can embrace some of these arguments that are well-supported by the community. national policies and the Council is really willing to In that way, it is quite hard to resist. Getting in very come in and say, “We will help you and we will early in the process is also important. It is no good support you to do it,” and I have had no problems at waiting until it comes to a vote. You have got to have all with it. done all the work beforehand. Perhaps that is similar to your work. It is a question of timing and process, Q313 David Heyes: Rowan, have you got your hands which we can manage, and making sure that you are on the levers of power? well-prepared and well-researched. Rowan Draper: I would not say that I have. Unfortunately, we had a situation where our council Q311 David Heyes: It seems to me that the approach closed two bowling greens and a tennis court within you have just described might be easier for an our area as part of the budget process. When we came independent councillor to achieve than one who is part to the reports, it was all in hidden in detail. It should of the party system. have been clearer. I said this to our chief officers: Marianne Overton: It does come from looking at “You come to us with proposals that you are going to your area and what is needed for your area and then do this for the play park, you are going to do this for putting together the policies that would be needed for this area, but when it comes to cutting services in the the council to have in order to best support the budget, it was all done under the name of aspirations and the needs of the people in your area. efficiencies—‘we are just going to restructure.’” The So yes, I guess, from that process, there is not only detail was a drop from about 60,000 to 30,000. another agenda. You are talking about a £1 million budget and first- Alycia James: I agree with a lot of what Marianne time councillors who have not had sufficient training has just said. If you go in with a good, well-researched to be able to read that balance sheet and be able to argument and evidence to show that the policy you understand the organisation well enough to be able to are pushing is the right one for your community, then go to the officers and say, “Hold on, that is a massive it does make all the difference. I sometimes go in and drop. Why has that dropped?” We have had apologies wave papers and I think some of them in control in private since because of this, but that still does not probably get a little bit scared by that, because, yes, I change the fact that we were not involved in a major have evidence to show that this is an argument that is decision about our area. I would say that, generally there for a reason; I am not just standing up to say speaking, in other areas the communication between things. Maybe mine is a strange council as it is not as the officers and the councillors—at least my ward political most of the time as it potentially could be. It colleagues—is generally okay, but I do not think that cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Ev 80 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton anything new has come through the localism agenda. the sense that my unitary authority has a youth action I do not think there is anything that we have had since council and I don’t know how much devolved power 2011 that would have changed it. they have to do anything. Our borough council does not have a devolved administration or devolved power Q314 Heather Wheeler: I am fascinated. You are all for a youth council, but young mayors could do it. lovely young people and there seems to be this Perhaps more support or status could be given to a clamouring for reducing the voting age down to 16, member of the Youth Parliament, in that sense, but but we still have this trend of maybe the majority of then, unfortunately, I think many people would worry councillors being 60 and white. Do you think doing that it would become another exercise or an extension something unbelievably dramatic would be a good of party political stuff. While I agree that they should idea with councils, or is it about experience and not have politics, I don’t know whether party politics is just about enthusiasm? I am going to come to you last, right for under-16s, in that sense, because it can be because you like saying what you like saying and we tribal and vicious, here, in my council and in other can read it in your face. Marianne, what do you think? councils. Perhaps they should keep their values of Marianne Overton: About increasing diversity of school education where, if you call somebody a bad councillors? name, you are told off for it; if you have done wrong, Heather Wheeler: Yes. you get sorted out. Whereas I don’t think that is as Marianne Overton: It is critical. We must have clear in the adult world of politics. diversity, because if we don’t then we are not properly Alycia James: I agree with what Rowan said earlier in connection with those parts of the community that about educating our young people, because they do may have a different perspective, whether it is age or not really know what a councillor does. You cannot any other way you wish to divide the groups. It is get them involved to become a councillor if they have really important that we have representative councils. no idea or no interest in it. We have just had another How does one do that? Whether to go for the “nudge” Local Democracy Day and we had something called or the “shove” was the way of looking at it. We do “political speed dating”, where a load of young people nudge. We try very hard in all the different processes could come in and ask us all sorts of questions. There that we can think of and it might be that one, in the were only two questions off-limits; those were what end, perhaps has to come to a process of top-up political party and what age. They could ask anything. places. I am not a party, so I cannot do the group I thought that was a really good idea. However, we selection, but top-up places would be interesting. We are still missing a big chunk within our council, not had this with the regional government for the different necessarily of young people; it is those aged political groups. Half of the places were by 21 through to 45. I must admit I am in that group. I appointment from councils and then, to make up the am one of the few. I cannot have a full-time job and balance, there were top-up places. That is quite an do what I do. I have two part-time jobs, which are interesting way of doing it. It would be one way of paid quite poorly, in all honesty, so I can play a full getting a more diverse representation. It is certainly role in council. There are other members who have important to have quality, but there is no reason why full-time jobs and can only go to the odd meeting. you should not have quality in a diverse group of At our council we have full council meetings at councillors. two o’clock in the afternoon on a Wednesday. How Rowan Draper: I recently read a blog by can you get people with full-time jobs to say to their Lord Adonis, who wrote about the desire for employers, “I need Wednesday afternoon off to go to 16-year-olds to be able to stand. I think that is perhaps another council meeting. By the way, I also need a step too far, but then I think votes at 16 is a step too Tuesday afternoon”? This is a district. We are getting far. While I do support the work that the £3,300 a year. That is not going to pay for your time British Youth Council, the UK Youth Parliament and off. It puts a lot of people off. That is going to prevent the Votes at 16 campaign have done, the problem is us getting a properly representative council. I don’t that we are not asking the right question when it think it takes anything drastic to fix that. I think it comes to that. We should be asking: is 16 the right age takes a bit of common sense; perhaps have council to be a member of adult society? Are they responsible meetings in the evenings, after work. enough to run up a huge credit card bill and then have Simon Killane: The problem with council meetings in to pay it off? As I understand it, the age of consent the evenings is, if you have young children, like me, for marriage is still 16 with parents’ permission. There do you give up your family life with your young are lots of others, and I have debated it a number of children? times with young people through social media and in When it comes to diversity, one of the things I think person and, generally speaking, the debate about is you need to have is a broad spectrum of different age about entitlement. It is, we can drive a car at 17, we groups. You want to have the older people in their can have children, with our MP, at 16—if they so 60s, 70s or whatever who have the experience, as long chose. I think that is the wrong place to start the as they are able, who can pass that on to the younger argument. The debate should be about the fact society members and can use their wisdom and their recognises you at 18 as a full adult, responsible for knowledge to help. You want younger people, but bear yourself, and that is the focus that I would give. in mind young people who come into the system However, I think that there is a great opportunity for probably need a bit of experience in life first. I would young mayors and youth councils and I don’t think it not recommend it, but I would not say no; we should is widely enough spread throughout the country, in try to encourage them. I don’t think 16 is at the hub cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 81
22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton of the real problem. The real problem, as you suggest, sometimes see, particularly during election time, that is it is a financial process. does make it very difficult. Many of the independents I am Irish; you can hear my accent. I am from Ireland. have networks to try to encourage others to come I am in the oldest borough in England, Malmesbury, forward, and even to do some training prior to that of the first King of England, King Athelstan. I standing as well, if they would like. It is really just won by a landslide in the elections. How did that about making sure that there is an open door and happen? It is not about ethnicity, race or anything like trying to provide a level playing field. I also put that. People identify and care about the person who articles in the press inviting people to come forward: leads them. They want trustworthy, honest politicians. “Come and be a councillor.” I think it is a great thing They want people who want to do things. It is about to do. If I look back on my life and you think, “What economics. It is as simple and as plain as that. The have I done that is worthwhile?” this will be the thing “squeezed middle”, the people who have to go out to for me. One of them, I should say. work, raise income and raise families, often have the best vested interest to be in politics, because they care Q316 Chair: Looking at some of the practicalities of about healthcare, they care about their children’s what is preventing people from serving as councillors education and they have and are working in jobs that or, indeed, continuing on, which I think is a big require skills and so on. I come from the private problem, Rowan, you suggested that allowances sector. I have always been in the private sector as a should be standardised. Presumably, that is product private designer. Engineering and design are standardised across the country and across similar amazingly useful to me as a politician. It is trying to types of authorities. What is your basis for that point? get the diversity of people in there that is the key Rowan Draper: When you start work, you have a thing. It is an economic process that is stopping our minimum wage; you know what you are expected to kind from being in there. It has nothing to do with earn and, if there are any issues, you can challenge anything else. It is very basic and very simple. Do your employer, go to a trade union, if you are a something that I have not heard any politician say they member, or the Citizens Advice Bureau if you are not. will do: go out, get SurveyMonkey—there are all sorts One of the earlier speakers alluded to the fact that the of great things on the web—and ask the women and allowance in his authority was around £2,000. Ours is the men of this country, “What is it that is stopping a little over that—I think it is about £3,600—but it you from going into politics?” Don’t ask politicians, has only just gone up after about two or three years and sit around in little party groups and conferences of allowance freezes. Take out the independent panels, and say, “What do we think about ourselves?” We are which you alluded to earlier with the press coverage— weirdoes. We are in this system because we are “is this publicly palatable?”—and say, “Look, this is extreme and crazy; we shouldn’t be here. You and I what we expect of our councillors. Our backbench shouldn’t be here, because this system doesn’t councillors in these kinds of authorities, in these kinds welcome us. Ask the ordinary people in the street, of local areas are going to be dealing with this much “What would encourage you to get involved and amount of casework. They are expected to go to this become a local politician? What is it you like? What amount of meetings.” One thing that perhaps is not is it you don’t like? Here is the benefit. Here is the focused on enough is that they are expected to manage bonus. Here is the allowance you get,” and then look their online or social media profile. We live in a at your study and from that study, with a statistician society where people want accountability and and some analysis and expertise in hand, come up transparency. with some suggestions. They would be basic, like, “We have got to pay some money to these people so they can live, so they can pay their mortgages and so Q317 Bob Blackman: Just to cut across you, there they can get into the system.” Very basic stuff. are no standards of performance for councillors. There is no contract of employment. There is no expectation, other than seeking re-election and the party Q315 Chair: Let me come to Marianne. Political parties are responsible for selecting candidates where expectation that you will lose someday. we have got party candidates and councillors, but is Rowan Draper: I take that on board, but I think there there any more that can be done to get more people are more intelligent minds in the country that perhaps to stand as independents? could look at those kinds of questions. It is not going Marianne Overton: Very much so. One way is to to be an easy answer. The previous speakers alluded make sure that people do understand what a councillor to having more town and parish councils. In a time can do and what difference they can make. If there when people don’t know where their services are and are some good examples, they should be publicised in who represents them— the press or in newsletters or on Facebook; anywhere. That can partly be done through getting the public Q318 Bob Blackman: Your view is that the involved in a campaign, perhaps to achieve something allowances should be standardised and they should be and then giving feedback. That does encourage higher. Do you have a figure? people, because they want to see that they can do Rowan Draper: No, I don’t think it necessarily needs something useful. That is why people go into local to be higher. politics: they can make a difference for themselves, their family and their communities. If there are Q319 Bob Blackman: Who should set the barriers like unfair press coverage, which we allowance? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Ev 82 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton
Rowan Draper: I think that it could be an interesting I thought perhaps I could get another job once I got idea to have an independent body look at it, to do a used to the role and once I had learned what I needed whole range of research, not only on— to learn to kick off the process. I did not think it would be as difficult as it was at that point, because I was Q320 Bob Blackman: But those studies have been told by the Jobcentre, “Take off that; take off that; done frequently across the whole of the country and ‘Deputy Leader’, no; ‘Vice Chair’, no. Make it look recommendations have been made and councils have like you are not really doing anything in the council. said, “All very nice, but we can’t afford them.” It is Make it look like you have lots of time for them and never the right time. But I accept your view. nothing for the council.” I think that is a real shame. Marianne, you gave up some allowances, together There are other things, like the Territorial Army; if with your colleagues, to divert that money to you have somebody in that, “Yes, go ahead, fantastic, community resources. brilliant. You are serving your country and it is Marianne Overton: Exactly. something to be proud of”. We need to get businesses into that position where they are proud to have a Q321 Bob Blackman: If the offer was made that councillor. That should come not only from our level, suddenly the allowances were to be increased, what but from higher up, that “Look, these people are doing would you do? a good job,” and hopefully then it will become Marianne Overton: Many councillors find it very something literally to be proud of rather than a pain. difficult to accept increases in personal allowances, particularly in economically difficult times, and you Q325 Bob Blackman: Okay. Simon, a change in can understand that. However, at the same time, by the law? continually allowing it to stay very low, it becomes Simon Killane: I will just come in on your arguments very difficult to attract younger people, who are going about a change in the law. The problem is that when to have to give up some work to come and do the job. I was in a job and I went into the council role, I had That is a problem. If it were externally-set based on to go to my employer and say, “I want to take time experience, the job description and all of those things, off.” Because there was a recession, my employer personally, I would not have a problem with that at said, “We are going to put you on a short working all. If it were set externally, it would be a lot easier week. Councillors are either do-gooders or crooks. for us. Best of luck; you won’t win.” I won and then, when the economy picked up, he said, “You are back to Q322 Bob Blackman: Alycia, you alluded in your work full-time now and if you are not back to work written evidence to the experience you have had full-time there are going to be problems here.” I trying to get employment at the same time as being a became ostracised in my job, as far as I was councillor. Do you think the law should be changed concerned, to this day. The alternative for me then to prevent discrimination by firms against people who was to say, “I will get another job. I will go out and are councillors or wish to become councillors? get a job as a designer in another company.” I have Alycia James: It would be nice to have a slightly had friends say to me, “There is a job going down the gentler approach before we go in with a big stick and road for £10,000, £15,000 or £20,000 more money,” beat it around the head. It is difficult. For example, and as soon as they hear you are a councillor, first of today, when I said I was coming here to speak all, they don’t like politicians. There is a trust element, everyone said, “Oh, wow, Parliament! That’s very so you are discriminated against there. You can hide exciting”. When I say, “I am going to speak in it from your CV, but then when you go to the council,” they say, “You want time off for that, do interview they find out when you say, “I need to take you?” It is the perception of it as well; it is a big, time off from my job.” The second problem is they big problem. don’t like the fact that you want to take time off, because you have to. You are stuck in a no man’s land Q323 Bob Blackman: But you made that choice and, where you cannot really continue on with your presumably, in your employment you have a certain existing career. For me, as a product designer, I have number of days off a year you are entitled to claim, to feed my family, pay my mortgage, the children’s which you can take for public service if you so education and so on. At the same time, I am absolutely choose. wedded to my role as a councillor, which I absolutely Alycia James: If I don’t turn up to work, I don’t get love and every day I am thinking, “How am I going paid. to continue doing this?” The other problem you have is there is a certain line Q324 Bob Blackman: It depends on your terms of that you cross where, if you have so many meetings employment. I don’t know your circumstances, but in and so many things to do as a councillor, you take so most firms you would be entitled to a certain amount much time off your job that no employer would take of time off and, indeed, for public service you would you on. To me, at a certain point you have to have be entitled to a certain amount of time off as well, some sort of living wage. The public do not which is in addition to your normal holiday. Is that understand. When I say to the public what I do and sufficient? what I get, they say, “What?” They cannot believe it. Alycia James: Not really. I was applying for a new They are not saying, “That’s terrible. You shouldn’t job last year, because I gave up a pretty well-paid job be paid.” They are ignorant of what is really going before I got elected, in the run up to the elections and on. Once you tell them, they are like, “I can’t believe cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 83
22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton this.” They will understand councillors getting support you said you don’t understand why things that could as long as we are not earning a big fat cat salary and be put in 50 words are so often put in 500 words. Is spending it on holidays. If the system says, “You need there a culture around councils that just mitigates the money to pay your mortgage, to keep a roof over against ordinary people being able to do the job well? your head, to have a pension, to be able to pay for the Alycia James: I think sometimes they will put in so care of your children, for their education, for your many words to hide some of the argument, to an food and for your petrol. You are doing this for the extent, and you are fishing through 100 pages of love of your community; you are not doing it to make paperwork, which you are given on the Thursday a big salary, but you will have enough money to live night for the Monday morning, trying to find comfortably and you don’t have to worry about”— everything you need to find. It is difficult.
Q326 Bob Blackman: Knowing all that you know Q333 Mark Pawsey: If you could change that, how now, are you going to stand at the next election? Yes would you change it? What would you like to see or no. done to make things better for somebody like you that Simon Killane: The answer is I am going to stand, would make it much more exciting to go to that because I am one of those very silly people who thinks meeting? the system is rubbish and will keep in. Alycia James: Well, some of them I am not sure they could ever be exciting to go to, to be honest. It is Q327 Bob Blackman: Alycia? when you are given paperwork at very short notice Alycia James: Yes, and I am again in May. and it is full of stuff that is just repeated from previous times. If you do not know it from previous times, then Q328 Bob Blackman: Rowan? go and read your old paperwork. Just having it more Rowan Draper: I am not sure. As I outlined in my concise and to the point would help a lot of people. written evidence, there are a few questions I would We do not get a lot of support, to be honest. There is like to answer before committing. I would like to part of me that would like having a caseworker, think that I would be in a position to say yes. because so much of my time goes into casework, but that is the most satisfying part of my role; it is talking Q329 Bob Blackman: Okay, so that is a qualified to the people that I represent and helping them. yes. Marianne? Marianne Overton: Yes. I think it is important that a Q334 Mark Pawsey: So if offered one, you would range of voices are heard. not want one? Alycia James: I would like some help, but not a full Q330 Mark Pawsey: I would like to follow up on caseworker. those points, because each of you told us about the sacrifices that you have made in your careers and the Q335 Mark Pawsey: What help would you like, income levels that you are able to enjoy as a then, if you don’t want a caseworker? councillor and, in some instances, the sacrifices in Alycia James: Perhaps being able to sometimes say— terms of your family life. Do you feel supported in I suppose it is a caseworker to an extent—“This is the role that you do? Could the council officers give what I want; a response doing to the person,” but to you more support? Councillor Draper, you spoke still be in complete control. I do not want to lose that about a personal assistant, some kind of caseworker. input with the residents, but there are some, very What I would like to know is: what did you know routine things that come up that could almost be dealt about the support that would be available to you with by somebody else. before you got elected and what have you found out since you became elected? Do you get enough? Q336 Mark Pawsey: Councillor Killane, would you Rowan Draper: I would say I knew very little in detail like this caseworker? about what to expect, though, because I had come Simon Killane: I am capable of doing my own from a student union background, I had had officers casework and I would not like to have the situation who had worked with me before, so I had an idea. As where somebody else was doing my casework for me. to whether the support was good, I think there were I am articulate, I am educated, I can go on to PCs, I elements that were good. My local party could have can do documents and so on. done a bit more in the way that they supported and trained, and the local council could have done a bit Q337 Mark Pawsey: But how are we going to create more. you this time then? Simon Killane: What I would love is to be able to Q331 Mark Pawsey: But how much did you know have a little office in my town of 5,000 people, with before you became a councillor about the backup and a computer and a phone, and be paid a basic living support that you would get from the council wage so I could go to the meetings, so I could get particularly? involved in things, see my family at weekends and not Rowan Draper: If I am honest, nothing. have to take my holidays off, and then, when people had problems in the town, they could come straight to Q332 Mark Pawsey: Did anybody know anything? my office and talk to me. I could be doing all my How much backup and support do you get? What kind casework, doing all my council work, attending the of stuff do the officers give you? Councillor James, meetings I needed to and getting my job done, rather cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Ev 84 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton than stuck up in my attic at three o’clock in the Q342 Mark Pawsey: So you would participate if it morning dealing with a production line of hundreds was in the evenings. of emails, trying to cope with these documents and Simon Killane: I would, but again you have the stuff that comes at short notice, knowing that the problem with your children and your family. Yes, it officers are paid sometimes very large salaries, have would be better if some were in the evening, but you pensions, have security, while I am doing it on a also have to remember that as councillors—and I am shoestring budget. That is what I would love. sure it is the same here—we do an awful lot. We attend parish and town council meetings, planning Q338 Mark Pawsey: Councillor Overton, as an meetings—I am on the northern area planning independent, these three guys who are party political committee meeting, which is in the evening—and area appointments and have political parties behind them board meetings. If you look at my diary on my that provide them with some backup and resource website—“Simon Killane” in Google—you will see have an advantage you do not have. How do you every single meeting I do is on my diary. Lots of it is manage to do it? at night. You have to start rethinking this whole Marianne Overton: I would definitely snap up your process of how we get to do the things we want to do offer, so long as I could write the job description. I sit here. It is not just saying, “Put it on at night.” on two councils, as I mentioned earlier. On the district Alycia James: I had some training with the council we have very little direct support. There is one Conservative Councils Association after I got elected. secretary, if that is the right word, who looks after everybody and is not exactly somebody you can ask Q343 Mark Pawsey: After? to do a letter or whatever. Whereas on the county Alycia James: Yes. Very little before from anybody, council we do have shared administrative support and or even advice, to be honest, and I have had quite a that is enormously helpful. They can do things like organise meetings for you and check if there is a clash lot with the LGA. They have been the best resource. in your diary. They keep my diary for me and it makes a huge difference to how much time I can spend on Q344 Mark Pawsey: Has the training been relevant? thinking about the issues and supporting the Has it helped you do your job? individuals. Alycia James: Yes.
Q339 Mark Pawsey: Did you have to kick and Q345 Mark Pawsey: It has. What type of training scream to get that or does everybody have that? have you done? Marianne Overton: Lincolnshire County Council was Alycia James: I was on something called the “Next in a particular position a few years ago that meant we Generation” leadership programme from the LGA. were forced into making some substantial Not only did it give you practical advice about how improvements and it was an outfall of that. to deal with different sorts of problems; as simple as it was, sometimes they gave you enough knowledge Q340 Mark Pawsey: So everybody gets it. to give you that confidence to deal with problems. Marianne Overton: We all get a proportion; that is Sometimes that is one of the big issues. right. It is by proportion. Lincolnshire County Council and North Kesteven District Council were in the first Q346 Mark Pawsey: But that was the political tranche of accredited councils for the support they party’s training. give to councillors. Alycia James: No, the LGA does it for all groups. Some of the training that they have provided Q341 Mark Pawsey: If each of you did not know otherwise has been excellent, but I am not sure if that what backup and support you were going to get as is available to people who are thinking of standing. councillors, you presumably had no idea what training would be provided, unless any of you went to talk to Q347 Mark Pawsey: The other two members, have the local council before you put your names forward to become councillors. What training have you had you done LGA training? and what would you like? Rowan Draper: I attended the Young Councillors Simon Killane: I will very briefly say that I have Training Conference and, out of that, myself and other written to my council several times, the training councillors decided that we wanted to set up a support officers and my own party training officer, to say, network for other councillors and potential candidates. “Please stop sending me emails saying, ‘There is a Rather than rely on the LGA or any other groups that course on Wednesday at 10 o’clock’. I have used up are there to support, we are doing it ourselves. all my holiday entitlement. My family have had no holiday this year; I have used it for meetings. I cannot Q348 Mark Pawsey: Councillor Draper, you seem go to training courses during the day.” Then they will quite keen on standardised packages; you are quite say, “Well, maybe we will run them at night,” but they keen on a standardised set of allowances and you are don’t. I have missed out on all of the training that quite keen on a standardised induction. Why a is available. There is loads of good quality training standardised induction? available for any councillor all the time; I just cannot Rowan Draper: Because I think, regardless of age or do it. background, there are skills that people don’t have. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG04 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o004_db_121022 HC 432-iv corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 85
22 October 2012 Councillor Alycia James, Councillor Rowan Draper, Councillor Simon Killane and Councillor Marianne Overton
Q349 Mark Pawsey: But you don’t think influence the officer, I have to say, in developing the circumstances are different on different councils, policy. because the challenges they face are different? Rowan Draper: Sometimes, but I think that you can Q351 Mark Pawsey: You would like more bullet have an induction process that would support points; more concise reports from officers. individual members. It is going to have to be locally Marianne Overton: Concise. If you ask them a direct tailored. One of the things I would say is that the question, you get a direct answer and that is quite training that I did has been more about information handy. It is much better than the wads of paperwork. rather than skills. I would have loved, before joining For council staff to be responsive on the phone is also the scrutiny committee, to have the ability to perhaps very helpful. The other aspect that is more difficult is test out my scrutiny powers, because now, facing a attendance at conferences and other kinds of training. real life scrutiny committee as a witness for the first I have done some in-house training with the councils, time, it really does give you a different understanding which is very much geared towards, “These are the of how you are supposed to prepare. The one thing issues. Now you know about them, right?” There are that I would like, if I could have anything, is other kinds of training, which are much more, “These somebody who is able to give me the bullets to fire at are the skills we are working towards” and then going people when it comes to— through a process to get there and to achieve those skills. That kind of training I have had from the Local Q350 Mark Pawsey: I am not sure that many Government Association. The difficulty with councillors are trained to sit before a committee such attendance of training externally to councils is the cost as this, so you have done very well. Councillor and, being political organisations, a ruling group is Overton, what training have you had and what would often very disinclined to fund another member to you like? attend training. At Lincolnshire County Council, I Marianne Overton: I am going to take training have been fortunate; we have got a training budget for broadly. One of the other ways of training people, each group, which is in proportion to their numbers. thinking of those huge wads of paper—and you are That is really important. I cannot understand why all absolutely right; you are talking big quantities—is councils do not do that. It is definitely the right way briefings. By having an officer, when a big item is forward. coming forward, tell me what is important—“What Chair: Thank you all very much indeed for coming if?” “Okay.” “Right.”—you can make it much more and giving us such interesting and informative looking forward. That way you also get a chance to evidence. Thank you. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SE] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
Ev 86 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
Monday 29 October 2012
Members present: Mr Clive Betts (Chair)
Bob Blackman James Morris Simon Danczuk Mark Pawsey Bill Esterson Heather Wheeler David Heyes ______
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Olly Buston, Executive Director, Members and Supporters, Labour Party, Steve Hitchins, Lead, Be a Councillor programme, Liberal Democrats, and Robert Neill MP, Vice Chairman, Local Government, Conservative Party, gave evidence.
Q352 Chair: Good afternoon and welcome all of you have the best people coming forward. It is equally fair to our fifth evidence session in the inquiry into to say that that is usually going to be best achieved at Councillors and the Community. For the sake of our a more local level, rather than by some kind of records, could you say who you are and the national template, because it is local knowledge of the organisation you represent? particular community and the particular ward—the Olly Buston: I am Olly Buston. I am the Executive political intelligence, in the truest sense of the word— Director for Members and Supporters at the Labour that you need to bring that forward. Political parties Party. can help in some of the training and support that we Steve Hitchins: Steve Hitchins. I am representing the then give, but it is in everybody’s interest to have the Liberal Democrats and I run the Be a Councillor best possible pool of talent coming forward, I would events that we do. have thought. Robert Neill: I am Bob Neill MP and I am Vice Steve Hitchins: Yes. Further than that, the better the Chairman of the Conservative Party, responsible for candidate, the better your chance of winning, because local government. not only do the voters quickly get a feel of how good, interested, active and local that candidate is, but so do Q353 Chair: You are most welcome. I think, Olly, the other members of the campaign team supporting you have not been with us before. Steve, I do not that candidate. Their enthusiasm, energy and know whether you have been to a Select Committee. commitment to winning that election is often greatly Steve Hitchins: No. influenced by their personal judgment of how good and how committed that candidate is. Further than Q354 Chair: You have not. Bob, well, what can I that, you do need good councillors. I know most of say? I did not used to believe in reincarnation, but you, if not all, have been elected councillors. There is here you are proving me wrong after all. You are all a school of thought that thinks that the people who very welcome. run councils are the senior officers, but weak Robert Neill: Thank you, Clive. Can I just say I very councillors make for poor councils, in my opinion and much appreciated the generosity of your words to my experience. Unless you have good-quality councillors successors when they came along on another providing that strategic direction and political occasion? It was very kind. leadership, councils can really struggle. We suffer Chair: They were meant, absolutely. sometimes from not having sufficient talent in the Robert Neill: That is very nice of you. council chamber. Olly Buston: I would just add that, for the Labour Q355 Chair: We have heard quite a lot from Party, in opposition, the real way we can prove to witnesses during our inquiry that political parties have people in communities that we are worthy of being a significant role in trying to get more people, and a elected is if we can make a real change in their lives greater variety of people, to stand for council but, in and in their communities. We can do that only through the end, perhaps their real interest is in winning really effective local campaigning and local elections, and as long as they win them, they are not government, so the quality of our candidates is hugely that bothered who the councillors are or how well they important. It is also critically important that they fully perform. Is that a fair comment? represent and reflect the communities they serve. Robert Neill: It is a simplification, if I might say, and for pretty obvious reasons. It is in the interests of any Q356 Chair: In 2007, we had the Councillors political party to have the best available candidates, Commission, which was generally warmly received— precisely for the reason that you not only want those and then presumably filed in bottom drawers candidates who are electable in the first instance and somewhere. Can you name one single initiative that therefore have the campaigning and the community your parties have taken as a result of that commission? skills to make a good stab of getting elected, but also Olly Buston: There are a number of important you do not want to have a situation where you have recommendations in the Councillors Commission councillors who do not then do the job and do not get report: on BME representation; on the training of re-elected. Therefore, it is in everybody’s interests to under-represented groups; on best practice in cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
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29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP candidate selection; on exceptions to enforcing the activists, school governors, people who are involved party whip on the grounds of conscience; as well as in local businesses and local voluntary organisations, in other areas. In all those areas, we are making real and keen people you meet when you are out efforts at improving. We know we have got a long canvassing, as well as looking at people who are party way to go. members or supporters. We have sought to do it that way. Q357 Chair: Has anything changed, as opposed to Also, in November last year, we introduced into our efforts to try to achieve change? standard selection process an “agreement to stand”, Olly Buston: On the example of enforcing the party which all Conservative councillor candidates have to whip, we are loosening that to allow flexibility on the sign up to. That sets out certain basic things that are grounds of conscience on some local planning issues. expected of Conservative councillors, including We have taken a lot of initiatives in the training of proper, regular and rigorous attendance at council under-represented group. The Future Candidates meetings; dealing promptly, courteously and Programme we have set up, which started last year, appropriately with casework and constituents; and explicitly attempts to bring in a much wider range of themselves acting as, if you like, a positive face for candidates from BME communities and to increase the party in dealing with their community. We have the number of women candidates. It is explicitly doing got to some of those areas that the Commission that, and doing it pretty well, but again we have a flagged up, but through our own way of doing it. long way to go and we will not be satisfied until our candidates and our councillors fully represent the Q358 Bill Esterson: Bob, Olly and, to a certain communities they serve. extent, Steve made the point about taking on board Steve Hitchins: We were in great support of the what the Commission recommended, but I wonder Councillors Commission. If there was an error, the how successful that has been. I am aware that some mistake they made was going for term limits in the of those recommendations have been implemented in recommendations, which unfortunately did not some flagship councils, but I wonder how widespread manage to get much support from existing that has been and whether the sorts of contracts that councillors—strange that. That put the whole report you just described, Bob—the Labour Party has a on the back burner. But all the stuff we have done similar approach—are followed, or whether people about broadening and widening the pool of talent from just pay lip service to these things because they are which we select—looking outside party membership, being told to do them centrally. and looking at ethnic minorities, disabled people and Olly Buston: In terms of the Labour Party’s younger people in particular—we have tried very hard candidates and the councillor contracts, they are a to deliver on. relatively new innovation over the last few months in Robert Neill: We have taken a number of initiatives, terms of being party policy, but they very much build which I will happily set out in a moment. I have to on best practice that has been happening across the say that they were not always directly in response to country for many years and in many places. It is great the recommendations of the Councillors Commission. when you are standing to be a candidate if you are Some of the issues that the Councillors Commission making commitments about the extent to which you raised were important ones. That issue about are going to engage with the community that you are broadening the base of councillors and where seeking to serve. Equally, it is a very good thing if candidates come from was an important issue, but I councillors can sign contracts that spell out the kinds have to say I take a slightly different view. I have to of things that they are going to do and commit to say that I feel that the Councillors Commission rather being a high-quality councillor. In the best examples, spoilt what were some good proposals with some these kinds of contracts have been used to help other proposals that, frankly, my party and I identify training needs for individuals and, in some personally regarded as very unacceptable indeed and cases, they are taken into consideration when it comes which now, I suspect, would be regarded as almost to re-selection. They are very positive. They do build incomprehensible by a public that has become— on best practice elsewhere; they are not an invention rightly or wrongly—much more sceptical of the way that we have had over the last few months. The in which, for example, any elected representative at commitment that they should be the norm and any level is rewarded, in some of the ways the introduced everywhere and that they will drive a Councillors Commission proposed. In 2007, it might cultural change within the parties is a good one. have been well intended, but I think it got in the way Steve Hitchins: The Liberal Democrats have a much and now it is impractical. more devolved command-and-control structure than However, we have taken some specific steps and, we the other two parties, in my experience—they may do so in three ways, Mr Betts: first, through the disagree—so there is no hard and fast set of rules. Conservative Councillors Association, which also However, I know personally that we were getting admits candidate members. That has a range of online candidates to sign contracts as long ago as 1998, and tools and material available, as well as hard copies, since then they have been part of the Be a Councillor including advice to Conservative council group programme that I deliver as a firm recommendation. leaders, and also advice to our constituency parties, in There have been model copies on the Association of effect, as to how they should seek candidates. We have Liberal Democrat Councillors website where you just published that and it includes a list of suggestions as cut and paste the name of your council. We have tried to how you can go outside the normal party ranks to to build them as two-way contracts. In other words, search for people. We suggest looking at community not only are there the dos and the don’ts, but there is cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
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29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP also what support you can get from the group, because generally contribute a passage to the Conservative most people who come in to be a councillor from the Councillors Association monthly newsletter. We also cold, as it were, as first-time candidates do not realise send out a weekly information bulletin and I can that the councillor is not working in isolation on their contribute to that. I regularly go to some of the events own. Most people who, as members of the public, that we hold around the country. Over the last two engage with a councillor engage with one person on months or so, since I was appointed to my current job, a one-to-one basis. They do not see them in a group I have been to Warwickshire, Windsor and situation. They do not see them discussing and Buckinghamshire, and I am due to go down to Exeter working as a team. They do not see them backing shortly. That is exactly about having a mixture of each other up—if someone is not well, they will get sitting councillors and existing councillors. I am cover for their surgeries. They do not get that concept, setting up at the moment some further refinements to so we put a lot of that into the contract to make sure our template to monitor candidate selection in the run- there is support for that individual within the team of up to the county council elections, obviously for the group of councillors. It has become best practice. political reasons, because I want to make sure we have It is increasingly being more widely used, not least all the candidates lined up in the target seats, but it because if you have a councillor who has signed the also gives us other information about where we are contract and—in the very rare circumstances this getting the candidates from. I hold weekly telephone happens—that person does not perform to the best of conferences with the appropriate Conservative group their ability, you have a piece of paper that makes leaders, which people come in to. If there are deselection easier. That is probably the dark side. particular issues that people wish to raise with me, I Robert Neill: It builds on practice that I remember meet them in London, make a visit to the area—if I going on in, say, the London borough of Wandsworth can—or we talk by telephone. when they had contracts back in the 1990s. Indeed, I It is trying to lead by example and to encourage think they were getting their candidates to sign whenever you can. We have done some good work contracts very early on, because they wanted to go on recently with Women2Win, which I know is to the council’s approved list. It was sensible to roll predominantly aimed at getting people into that out across the piece. Not long after the Westminster, but very often you find that there is a Commission’s report, we adopted a standardised form spin-off from women who come forward and are of application and selection procedure for our interested at that stage, but, either as part of the candidates. This is underpinned, in our case, by the process of getting to Westminster or as an alternative, party’s constitution, which requires both the want to go into local government work. We have some constituency associations that select the candidates dedicated people who work with them as well. and the groups to which, if successful, they will belong on the council to act within the party Q360 Bob Blackman: That is very helpful. Steve? constitution. The requirement to enter into the Steve Hitchins: I think I have done every one of the agreement to stand, as we are calling it, is Be a Councillor events the Liberal Democrats have— underpinned by the constitution, in our case. Of course, the policing of it has to be done at a local Q361 Bob Blackman: I am going to ask you about level and I think that is inevitable, sensible and proportionate, but we have a local government that in a minute, but specifically within your party, do department within central office, which gives legal you have a role of encouraging? and constitutional advice in those rare instances where Steve Hitchins: Yes. That was why I got the job, it is needed. However, as my colleagues have said, the because that was my record as a councillor. We have training and backup that you give is very important in done 120 of these events around the country over the practice. As I say, we deliver that through the past six years and we come away from each one of Conservative Councillors Association, and also the them with a list of real names of real people who they Conservative strand of the Be a Councillor are going to contact and take further. The programme campaign—we produce specific material on that. is designed to make people look outside the party Steve Hitchins: Could I just add that the signing of membership, because we think that is too restrictive. that contract by a candidate, where it is used, is a condition of approval? If they want to be approved Q362 Bob Blackman: Has there been an upsurge in and there is one of these contracts in operation, they the number of people applying to be councillors as a have to sign it there and then. It is not something you result of your events? do when you get elected; it is about an approval Steve Hitchins: There has been an upsurge in people process. being approached. I am a firm believer that the existing councillor cadre have to get out there and Q359 Bob Blackman: Can I ask each of you your approach people. They are the best recruiters and personal role, in your position, in encouraging people talent spotters, but sometimes they get rather bogged to stand for council positions and encouraging local down in what they are doing, with limited vision and groups to adopt best practice? Can I start with you, it is very easy to say, “Let us have a look at the Bob? membership list again,” and it is the same tired old Robert Neill: As the Vice Chairman, I have got names. oversight of that political operation we have in central office. I also sit on the board of the Conservative Q363 Bob Blackman: Can you put a number on it? Councillors Association and, on a personal level, I You say you have run 120 events, so how many extra cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
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29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP people have been either approached or encouraged to because we have a whipping system in the other stand for council as a result? parties and, therefore, there is never more than one Steve Hitchins: I do the identification. Liberal Democrat candidate for one seat. There is no limit on how many independents may stand, so they Q364 Bob Blackman: I just wondered if you are not always encouraging other independents to collected any data on how many people have— stand, because it becomes competitive for the seat. Steve Hitchins: I collect all the names and, off the Does that make sense? top of my head, I would estimate that we finish those Bob Blackman: That does make sense, yes. meetings with about 40 names at least. Steve Hitchins: It is up to the politicians.
Q365 Bob Blackman: At each meeting? Q370 Bob Blackman: Up to the politicians, fine. Steve Hitchins: At each of those meetings, yes. Olly, what is your view? Steve Hitchins: That does not mean we do not work Q366 Bob Blackman: So could you then— together. Steve Hitchins: On average, for the people who Bob Blackman: No, I am not suggesting that. attend— Olly Buston: The biggest burden falls on the parties and it is our responsibility to try to attract the best. Q367 Bob Blackman: So would you average that to about 500 people extra as a result? Q371 Bob Blackman: By holding joint events? Steve Hitchins: Comfortably. Probably more than Olly Buston: The one way in which we are all linked that. up is through the LGA. The Be a Councillor programme is one that Labour, the Lib Dems and the Q368 Bob Blackman: Thank you. Olly, what is your Tories are involved in, so that is a way in which there role in this? is a structure in place that is providing really good Olly Buston: My role is split into three areas. One is support for people who might want to be a councillor. around our digital strategy; one is around our member services function; and the other is around partnerships Q372 Bob Blackman: Bob, what is your view? and stakeholders. Our local government officer sits in Robert Neill: I am broadly with Steve on this. At the the partnerships and stakeholders area and he is end of the day, Olly is perfectly correct to say that responsible for co-ordinating our overall work and there are instances at a national level when we will support package for councillors. The fact that it sits co-operate, and Be a Councillor is one of them, within a stakeholders and partnerships team is not a because that is, if you like, a broad, overarching bad thing. Our women and equalities officer, for agenda that we can all sign up to. However, I do not example, is our link into, and works with, the very think it is realistic to think that we can deliver that diverse and vibrant affiliate and “friends of” groups agenda through a nationally imposed template of within the Labour Party, whether that be BME Labour, action, which is slightly different from raising the Chinese for Labour or Labour Women’s Network. awareness nationally of an issue that we might all sign They are a very important vehicle for us to reach out up to. Let us face it: at the end of the day, the parties to encourage people to stand as councillors. Those are intended to be in competition with each other and affiliates are very active in reaching out, in organising that competition is healthy and part of the electoral training and in encouraging people who have not process. thought about standing to be a councillor to seek Bob Blackman: I think we have a clear answer to selection. that. Steve Hitchins: Further than that, of course, we have Q369 Bob Blackman: Can I ask all three of you to interface with the political leaders of the groups in what scope you see for joint party co-operation in the individual councils to which you go to give this encouraging people from the community to come support. They are not always the most co-operative. forward to be councillors—we have heard various different pieces of evidence on this—or should it just Q373 Bob Blackman: I can understand that. Finally be left to the political parties to gain their own from me: in your experience, are people put off by the candidates? fact that allowances to be councillors are too low? Steve Hitchins: Can I jump in here? I think, very Olly Buston: The main reason why people put firmly, that it is up to the politicians. I have worked themselves forward to be councillors is because they closely with the Be a Councillor programme and the want to change their community—they want to different democratic services departments in improve the lives of people in their communities and individual councils all over the country and, in my they have a commitment to doing that. I do not think experience, whenever they do anything, they attract the main motivation for people is money, and I do not some really well-meaning people who have a real think we want to be in a situation where it is. commitment to public service and want to make a Certainly, given the great squeeze on living standards difference, but they all say that they want to stand as that people across the country are facing at the independents. There is absolutely nothing wrong with moment, I do not think now is a good time to be independent councillors, but there is absolutely no talking about increasing allowances. quality control, and when, at the LGA, we have tried to engage with the independent group, they are not so Q374 Bob Blackman: We have taken evidence, sure whether they want to engage with this. That is particularly from younger councillors, who have said cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
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29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP that the problem is that the allowance is too small for forward to be selected. That weakens the talent pool them to reduce their working lives, but it can be seen and it weakens the range of experience. Part of by the public as being too large and that can be addressing that does not have to be about money; it is off-putting. Bob, do you have a view? also about issues of timetabling and other kinds of Robert Neill: I am influenced, perhaps, by my own support that colleagues on the panel spoke about. history. I was elected as a councillor when I was 21, which either indicates that I was very keen or very Q376 Mark Pawsey: You are all aware that we are sad—or possibly some mixture of the two. It was conducting this inquiry partly because councillors are great fun, but that was long before there were not representative of their communities. I do want to allowances of any kind beyond just that very ask some questions about the under-representation of nominal—almost single-figure in terms of pounds— certain groups, but can I just ask you about the sum that you got for attendance at the meetings. I political dimension? Is it not a frustration for some practised as a barrister throughout all the 16 years I people thinking about becoming a councillor that, was a councillor, including when holding what would regardless of how good you are, it depends on where now be regarded as cabinet positions under the your party is standing in the polls? You could be a committee system. I wanted to do it and I adjusted my really good councillor and lose your seat because your working pattern, but it is also fair to say that the party is unpopular in the country and, at the same council was pretty good about when it tried to hold its time, you could be a pretty poor councillor and get committee meetings. For example, because we were elected simply because you have got the right party in the London commuter land, we held very few badge. Have you got any views about how that daytime meetings so that people could hold down particular issue affects the quality of people coming jobs, and most people I knew were certainly in forward? full-time work in all parts of the council. The Robert Neill: It is frustrating, but I think we just have council’s own organisation, I thought, was more to accept, Mr Pawsey, that that is the consequence of important about making it possible for people to take a democratic system. Many of us were probably on that on. the receiving end of it when we were councillors Steve Hitchins: If I can pick up where Bob left off, ourselves. I did not think it stopped good people I think councils and councillors in particular have a coming forward. Of course, you had then to maintain responsibility to make sure that their working day is the morale of those folks if they either lost their seat, not impossible alongside a full-time job, otherwise we or lost control of the council during those bad periods. lose those important people as elected councillors and That is the job of the party. also we turn what was never intended to be a full-time The other point is that we would all like to see a job into one and that is a mistake. We do not want greater spread of diversity in the sort of people who professional councillors. become councillors. That is a range of things. There Having said that, councillors have got a bit to answer is more we can do, as I said before, around for themselves, because in opposition one of their timetabling, which makes youngsters in work and favourite tricks is to say, “We are going to cut the women with caring responsibilities more able to stand. allowances,” if they think it is vote-winner. I am not My own party is doing more work to attract convinced it is a vote-winner. You can probably lose councillors from various ethnic minority communities. votes by inflating councillors’ allowances at the wrong There is an element, of course, of the fact that to a time and in the wrong way but, generally, if the degree your councillors will tend to be representative council is well-run, my view is that you attract a better of the areas where your particular party has its councillor if you pay a reasonable remuneration. electoral strengths. There is a broader issue for my Better councillors result in a better council, and the party that Grant Shapps, the Chairman, I and saving from having good councillors is potentially colleagues are working on, about making sure we get quite large. support more deeply in ethnic minority communities in the UK as a piece. That is very important work Q375 Chair: Can I just follow up on what Olly said? anyway and I hope that will lead to an influence on Is the Labour Party seriously saying that it believes our councillor numbers, but you have got to do it that that it is not a cause for concern in regard to getting way around rather than the other way around. younger or middle-aged people on to councils that people in their 30s and 40s with families may end up Q377 Mark Pawsey: Steve, what is your view about having to give up a couple of days of work in order a party’s standing at any one time? to do their council work and end up being significantly Steve Hitchins: You must experience it in your jobs worse off at a time when their family pressures are too: the pendulum swings. You have a better chance on them? of attracting people from a larger pool where the party Olly Buston: That is definitely a challenging and is more popular, because the membership is larger, the important issue, and I am sure that there are people activist base is larger and all those things go together. who do not stand for that reason, but I do not think However, we have quite a strong history of winning that the issue of allowances is something the public council seats against the trend and winning control of would be very keen on prioritising. There are lots of councils in places where you would not expect that to other important measures that we can take. We are happen. There was a time when seven out of eight very concerned that 70%-plus of councillors do not major cities had Liberal Democrat-chaired have a caring responsibility, so if you have a caring administrations, which is not the norm. These things responsibility, you are currently not putting yourself happen. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
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29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP
Q378 Mark Pawsey: Do you have any evidence that the past that parties were unwilling to be bold. I do people are put off by the cyclical nature of political not think that that is the case now, but in those areas representation? in particular, Mark, I do suggest it is very important Steve Hitchins: No, I do not think so. We tend to have that the parties at that level enforce that. That is why tides in these matters. If there is a council where we have that standardised selection procedure and we things are beginning to happen—where we are have party professionals in the field who can make beginning to gain seats and the other two parties have sure that that is properly policed. taken their eye off the ball, or are not performing very well, or the council is in trouble—you find that a Q381 Mark Pawsey: Do you have any thoughts on group of people become very active and energised, open primaries for councillors? and start attracting like-minded people, so the Robert Neill: As you know, our party has used open momentum builds. You see that in places where, over primaries for parliamentary candidates and that has three or four elections, all of a sudden the sometimes produced some very good results. Some of Liberal Democrats start doing well. That is a bigger the products are here in this House. I certainly have influence and a bigger factor. The energy of those no objection to the principle of open primaries. We individuals who are doing the campaigning attracts would have to look at the practicality. I do not rule like-minded and equally committed people, and it is out the idea. Some local associations and local council always the interface at a personal level that makes groups are doing much more to involve people. Our the difference. group in Northumberland County Council, a unitary, Olly Buston: There are much bigger barriers, such as have been doing an open manifesto session to get time—we mentioned child care issues—and the most members of the public to come and say, “What do you important one, perhaps, is that the idea of being a think we should be putting in our manifesto?” The councillor and putting yourself forward to be a same principle can apply, within certain constraints. councillor is completely alien to a wide variety of The party constitution does have to make sure there people who would, in effect, be excellent councillors. are proper safeguards to ensure that the whole process is conducted transparently and properly. Q379 Mark Pawsey: If people are not putting themselves forward, what is the Labour Party doing Q382 Mark Pawsey: In the other two parties, are to go out and find these people? your processes sufficiently transparent, or are there Olly Buston: There is an awful lot more we could do, steps you are taking to make the process more but we have a Future Candidates Programme that is transparent? specifically designed to reach out to the widest Steve Hitchins: In the Be a Councillor programme, I possible group of people, and we are doing that make the point on every possible occasion that a through newspaper adverts. It is in its second year and natural trait for any human being going into a room we are using, as the face of the programme, graduates of complete strangers is to first approach someone from the previous year who have not come through the traditional route of becoming a councillor. One who looks remarkably like them, so selection panels hundred per cent. of the people on that scheme are not have a natural trait of picking people who look like on those traditional paths to becoming a councillor. them. Three white, middle-aged lawyers tend to select We are also using that scheme to reach out to white, middle-aged lawyers. You have to train people. women—more than 50% of people on the programme It does not take more than 10 minutes, but just are women—and to BME communities as well. There because someone is young does not mean they are a is an awful lot more we could do and we want to build bit dodgy, or might not be able to do the job, might on that platform, but, along with the Be a Councillor not show the commitment, or might not last the full programme, which we are all engaged in in our own four years. You have to train people to widen their ways, that is a very important initiative for us. horizons. That is important, and that is now part of the process wherever we have a selection panel. Q380 Mark Pawsey: Bob, you told us some of the The other thing that is important is that we draw a things the Conservative Party is doing to try to attract wider net when we are first going out to approach people from other groups or groups that are less well people. It is very much about an individual, represented. How transparent is the selection process? one-to-one basis of doing that. A very good example Is there a tendency for a selection panel to go for came from a group of councillors at a London council a safe person, who might be somebody who fits the where there is a significant Afro-Caribbean stereotype, rather than take a risk on somebody community and they were all, to use their phrase, very perhaps from a slightly different background? “pale, male and stale”. They decided that it was Robert Neill: It is always very difficult to quantify important to go out and find someone from that how that works in practice. The rules are very clear community. They took the step of saying, “We are in that there are certain safeguards: anyone who is councillors. Our council gives a grant to a couple of themselves interested in standing cannot take part in Afro-Caribbean associations. Let’s write to them, the selectorate; and the application forms are designed invite ourselves, meet some people and see if they in a way not to create information that might trip would be interested in being involved.” Of course, for people up so that there is an entirely level playing the first six months, they were treated with a fair field. I think all the parties have the same standard amount of suspicion, but eventually they got to know approach in that regard. It is a question of people there and they did recruit people who have encouraging. I think it was perhaps more the case in been candidates and who have become elected. It is cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
Ev 92 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP about them taking steps and then building it on a Candidates Programme are from a BME background one-to-one basis. and we have some fantastic candidates coming Olly Buston: I would just add that we are going forward. We have a candidate called Marvin Rees who through a process of party reform, called “Refounding is standing for election to be the mayor of Bristol. If Labour”, which is based on a consultation that tens of he is successful, he will be the first elected black thousands of Labour members contributed to. One of mayor in western Europe, which is a shocking the innovations there is setting up local campaign statistic, but it will be a good step. He will have the forums that are in charge of recruitment, selection and third biggest mandate of any politician in the UK and local election campaigns. They are specifically that will be a positive step. However, there is a long, mandated with coming up with a recruitment strategy long way to go. There is a lot more effort to do, and that pulls in the widest possible range of candidates. we need never to be satisfied until our candidates and Through the selection panel process, there is an councillors fully represent the diversity of the emphasis on quality and diversity. However, to be communities they represent. blunt, positive action is probably, in certain areas, what really works, and certainly when it comes to Q386 David Heyes: Bob and Steve, positive action women’s representation we are enforcing that. has demonstrably worked for Labour, if only in terms of getting the number of candidates increased, but Q383 Mark Pawsey: Does that mean shortlists? both your parties are opposed to it in principle. Why Olly Buston: Yes, and women candidates. is that? It works. Steve Hitchins: We have taken decisions through the Q384 David Heyes: I would like to press you a bit party conference, which is our decision-making forum further on that point. I do not think there is any for these matters, and on at least three occasions question that the positive action programme has positive action has been rejected. In the leader’s brought about significant improvement in the ratio of words, our party’s record on this is “lamentable”. women candidates, in particular, but it has not been When he gave evidence to the Speaker’s Conference without critics. We have had evidence, for instance, in 2010, he made it very clear that something had to that drafting in high flyers through positive action change. He then got another job, which has delayed does nothing to address issues at the grass roots, and this a bit, but we have to do something—it is very that positive action is anti-democratic or undermining weak. Personally, I am in favour of positive action. for candidates. What do you say to people who say There is a great deal to be said for it, because it that? provides role models. We have increased the amount Olly Buston: I would say it is much less undemocratic of training, increased the incentives and we have set than having a dismally low number of women up special funds. We do a great deal about this. It is a councillors, MPs and so on. It has worked at the terrible problem at the parliamentary level, and while national level—we have more women MPs than all it is less of a problem at the local level, it is still not the other parties put together—and we believe that it good enough. The party knows that everywhere; we will work at the local level. We have a long way to just have a very strong view among party members go in terms of the proportion of women councillors about whether or not we should take positive action. and candidates. It is still pretty low at the Labour Robert Neill: We do not support positive action in that Party and we have a lot of work to do. In every policy, sense as a matter of principle and I agree with that, there are going to be challenges and downsides, but because it is our belief that you want the best people we are utterly committed to this and we believe the coming forward, regardless of gender or ethnicity. I democratic upside massively outweighs those do think that is a very important principle and we downsides. In terms of getting the broadest and should not restrict the choice of the selectorate in that highest quality possible pool of candidates, it is crazy way. However, I do think that there is a strong role not to make sure that women are coming forward. for positive action in what I regard as a positive rather than a slightly manipulative way—I do not mean Q385 David Heyes: You have talked about the manipulative in a malign way, but in the sense that it Future Candidates Programme and particularly that changes the open nature of the selection system. There one of the intentions is to improve the number of is a very positive role for encouraging more people in BME candidates coming forward, but you have not the pool of potential candidates and my party as gone so far as to apply the positive action programme much—and in some cases more—than others has to to the BME candidates. Is that right? If so, why not? do more around that. That is something that we have Olly Buston: That is correct at this moment in time. been doing. We did see, for example, in the last About 50%—or slightly more—of every community general election both a significant change in the all across the country are women, and it is an easier number of women MPs and a worthwhile and policy to apply, if we are being blunt. There is a much important increase in the number of ethnic minority more complicated mix of ethnicity across the country, MPs, starting from a very low base in my party’s case. which is very different locally. It is very hard to apply I honestly believe that is, long-term, the better result, a top-down measure on that issue, although there are because people will be able to say, “I came through probably ways of doing it. What I would say is that absolutely on ability. Nobody can ever challenge our emphasis in terms of encouraging and growing the that.” In that way, you are creating the point about number of BME councillors and candidates is very role models, which is hugely important. We certainly much through this outreach and training. Some 19% need to do more to encourage and support role models of the people who have been through the Future who will ensure that we have a good spread of people cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 93
29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP from right across the community. I think we all agree there is that training advice and online material I with the objective; it is just the means that we referred to earlier, Mr Betts, that people can come to disagree on. when they are forming part of a selection committee. Steve Hitchins: Could I just add that we do have Our guidance to finding and selecting candidates, like, quotas on shortlists, so although that is not positive by the sound of it, that of the other parties, positively action in candidates, it is on shortlists. encourages you to look outside simply the party membership base for potential good candidates. Q387 David Heyes: Is there more of a role for quotas in helping to move things forward? Q389 Bill Esterson: Moving on to that, tell me a bit Steve Hitchins: I would rather be judged by the about the voluntary community and faith groups that outcome than the method and, at the moment, we are you have attracted candidates from. Olly, you just not in the right place. mentioned community groups. Robert Neill: I am in some sympathy with that. We Olly Buston: The face of our Future Candidates do have quotas in relation to parliamentary shortlists. Programme at the moment is someone called At a local level in particular, the first thing is getting Jess Phillips, who was not a member of the Labour a good pool of people coming forward. The most Party—she was a community activist—and is a important thing is to get the outcomes I am sure every councillor. She is the face of our attempt to recruit one of us wants to see. people into the Future Candidates Programme because Olly Buston: It might be a bit of a cheap point, but we are trying to demonstrate that a much wider variety the makeup of this room reflects the face that decades of people can be councillors. One point I should add of softer efforts to increase the representation of for clarity is that when people come on to the scheme, women—I include myself in this—and diversity have they do join the party—they are taking that step. not been successful, so we have to look at much When people stand as Labour candidates, the rule is stronger measures. that they should have been a member of the party for a year, although there is scope to vary that locally in Q388 Bill Esterson: Do you prefer your candidates situations where there is a shortage of people coming to have been in the party for a long time before they forward. are selected, or before they are allowed to seek Steve Hitchins: I think it is very important. They are selection? important for two reasons. First of all, they are Olly Buston: In our Future Candidates Programme we activists already if they are in other organisations. are explicitly seeking people who do not follow those Secondly, when you go there, it is very easy to get traditional routes into being councillors. Part of that is signposted to the people who are more likely to want by encouraging people who are not party members but to become candidates. If you just talk to someone at who are brilliant community activists and organisers one of these community groups, they will say, “Oh, who are getting things done locally to be candidates. no, no, I couldn’t possibly do that, but so-and-so is Slightly under 10% of the people who came through very keen,” and they signpost you and you do a that scheme in the first year were not party members filtering process and get to meet the people who are when they walked through the door. That is not the potential candidates much quicker and there is real overwhelming majority, but where there are really engagement. There is the barrier that I was talking strong people like that, we should be encouraging about earlier about making sure they are the right them in. people for your party. There is no point trying to Steve Hitchins: The single-word answer is no. I am recruit someone whose values are diametrically certainly encouraging our local parties to look for opposed to the party’s views; that way, all sorts of candidates outside the existing membership list more problems arise. However, it is essential that there is and more and more, and almost as a preference. That more councillor and local party engagement with is partly because that is a reflection that the community groups and all sorts of things like that. membership of the political parties is much, much School governors, residents’ associations—all these smaller than it was 10 years ago and probably at the groups—include people who are already activists and moment is shrinking. I also think that we desperately already engaged in public service, which is at the need to bring in new blood. People join political heart of being a councillor. parties for a number of reasons; I think there are very Robert Neill: On a personal level, as a Member of few who join political parties just to become a Parliament and also as Vice Chairman, I think it is councillor. You can recruit people to become a important that we encourage direct involvement by councillor who then join, but I would think that the our Members of Parliament, our councillors and our tests you impose on people to find out whether they group leaders with that range of groups. I have seen, are going to be a good Liberal Democrat candidate both in my own area and across the party, for example, and then councillor have to be far more rigorous if that it is not just a question of talking to what you they do not exist already in the party. You do have to might regard as the old, established faith groups, take some care and pay some attention to that, but that because we have recruited quite a lot of ethnic does not mean that mistakes are not still made. minority candidates from some of the new evangelical Robert Neill: It certainly does not matter how long churches. Very often, there are people engaged in people have been members of the party as far as we those churches who will have a very strong view are concerned. It is the quality that is the most about some of the community issues. We have sought important thing. That is why we invest a degree of to do the same in some parts where we have good time in training the selectorate and making sure that relations, for example, with a local mosque or Hindu cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
Ev 94 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP temple. Part of that is the responsibility of the local that you had for those occasions when it really party themselves to be out there talking to folk in mattered. As we all know, much of it is about making those communities so that there is not a barrier. We sure that there is communication and encouragement know that we do not want there to be a barrier and rather than waving a big stick. That really ought to be sometimes there are perceptions that we have to break necessary only when there are real issues of principle down. That sort of political leadership, in the real and of key party policy that everybody would have sense, is going out there, offering the hand of signed up to. I am sure in all groups of all three parties friendship and saying, “Let us all work together. This here the decisions are taken on a majority vote—that is all of our community.” Then, as I think Steve said, is certainly the way Conservative group rules you pretty swiftly discern, because none of those operate—so I do not think there is the same communities are monolithic, that some will be of your impediment in reality to the perception. A bit of political persuasion and some will not be. You common sense is my advice as to how you deal with encourage those from your political persuasion: “We it. could do with somebody like yourself coming on Olly Buston: I tend to agree with my colleagues on board.” the panel. People get involved because they want to change their communities and improve the lives of Q390 Bill Esterson: Moving on to group discipline, people in those communities. In many ways, the Steve, you made the point that they have to have the priority of the Labour Party at the moment in same political views, ultimately. opposition nationally is to help to facilitate that kind Steve Hitchins: I said values. I think that is important of work on the ground in local communities, and to demonstrate that, even in opposition nationally, we are Q391 Bill Esterson: What comes first, though: able to make a change and improve people’s lives loyalty to the group and group discipline, or their locally. People stand and vote on a party platform; loyalty to their electorate? people expect that, really. As Steve was saying, there Steve Hitchins: I could throw that question back at is scope for flexibility on ward issues, issues of you, because you must face that issue. Hopefully, it is conscience and so on. As my colleagues are saying, I rarely that level of choice. The point I make to do not think it is the biggest issue that we face. candidates and recruiting teams who are coming for recruitment training is that 80% of what is done at a Q392 Bill Esterson: Moving on briefly to training, local government level is determined more by this one council leader told us that training stops the day place than by the councillors themselves. A lot of the you are elected. Is that true? What sort of training administration is about enacting what the Government goes on in your parties? of the day have decided, so there is much more about Steve Hitchins: What is true is that the demands on a style and tone in local government than there is about councillor’s time increase enormously once they are party politics—the way they do things, rather than elected, so the amount of time that they can and will what they do. All the councils have to follow a allocate to training is much tighter and more limited. Government line if there is an Act of Parliament and Most councils do quite a lot of extensive training they do—some do it with more enthusiasm than immediately when people are elected through the others. That issue should not arise quite so much. induction programme. There is some mandatory Also, the contract we talk about does make clear that training for licensing and planning, which all if a matter is a ward issue or a matter of conscience, councillors have to do even if they are not on the they have to make that clear to the group and they are committees, which is very important. Also, the not bound by following that line. But generally, the councillors themselves continue to have away days best councils discuss these matters in group and reach and other sessions. We do a lot of training through the a position of consensus where everyone feels Association of Liberal Democrat Councillors. We do included. If you keep forcing it down by saying, a lot of training at conferences—regional as well as “Let’s have a vote. Let’s decide here and now how we federal—and we also send people out to train are going to vote on this,” and not have the discussion councillors around the country. Some of that is or debate, you will find very quickly that you get a political, some of it is about recruiting and some of it split and divided group. A group that stays together is about campaigning. But, generally, we have a lot of will always encourage people in. I do not think it is other ways—we now do a lot of online training—and as big an issue as you say, but in fact they have to, of there are a lot more opportunities for councillors. I course, follow both of those. But it is rare that it could not possibly comment about that statement, but happens and I would not put that high up on my list it might be provocative to say that, and it does reflect of things that you would discuss in a great deal of the amount of pressure on a councillor’s time that they detail with a potential candidate. You are trying to probably feel that they do not do as much as they give them an opportunity to change the lives of the ought to. people they serve as a councillor almost every single Olly Buston: There is a lot of training out there and a day in quite small but sometimes significant ways, and lot of training going on, done by a lot of different it is that sense of helping people that is the biggest people in a lot of different places, whether it is the incentive to becoming a councillor, in my experience. parties, the councils themselves or the LGA. There is Robert Neill: I spent eight years as the chief whip of a lot of it out there. There are training programmes the council group where I was a member and I found for every stage of being a councillor, from “Do you that the best way was not to overdo the whipping, by want to stand? Do you want to be selected?” all the and large; you reserved using the potential sanctions way up to the sort of thing the LGA is doing with its cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 95
29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP
Next Generation training, which is about training for feed that back. In reality, that sort of message can leadership positions. It is out there. From the Labour get through. Party’s point of view, we could do an awful lot more, There are other reasons for bed blocking that are more particularly in terms of identifying people’s particular of an issue. Dare I say it, one of those may be a needs and co-ordinating how people access all that perverse consequence of the way the allowance diversity of training and signposting and flagging system works. Maybe we need to have a look at the appropriate things for people. Maybe it is a bit way that operates. Sometimes, if somebody has confusing and people are not doing the specific things retired, the allowance is a very useful sum. It was that would be most helpful to them. One thing that we intended for the best of reasons—to make sure that are doing to try to address that particular challenge is people are not out of pocket—but then it becomes piloting a councillor diploma in the north-west region, something different. Are there ways in which we can which is about just that: a more tailored, co-ordinated address that? I do not think you can do it in monetary approach that builds from the individual outwards. terms. I have found, for example, that you can make Hopefully, we can do some good work there and roll more use of the positions of honorary aldermen to that out across the country. give some sense of recognition—those types of things Robert Neill: We give quite a lot of training, both do make people feel that they are not just departing through some of the work on the back of Be a into nothing. Are there other things you can encourage Councillor but also through the Conservative them to do, albeit on an unremunerated basis, within Councillors Association, because that is where you the community? It is inevitable that there are a number have elected members. We do training on a raft of of reasons that give rise to bed blocking; I do not things, from specific policy issues through to various think it is simply a question of under-performance community campaigning and communication sometimes. techniques, public speaking and open policy seminars, Steve Hitchins: There is certainly an element of where you can come and meet a Minister or Front- that—it happens. However, it is a mistake to think that Bencher, or one of the party officials to discuss things. just because a councillor does their job differently By the sound of it, the techniques are very similar after 16 years from how they did it when they were across all three parties. It is important. It comes back first elected, they suddenly become different or not to the point I was making at the very beginning: it is worth the job, so I would guard against that. I would in the party’s interest to make sure it has councillors not go down the road of term limits; I think that would who perform, because they are going to be more likely be a mistake. to be re-elected at the end of the day and they will Having said that, in 2009, we adopted an identical also have done a better job for their communities in approval and selection process whether you are a the process. sitting councillor or not—they are broad-brush rules. Every sitting councillor has to be re-approved and has to go through the selection process whether they have Q393 Heather Wheeler: I will use a phrase that I been a councillor for six months or 16 years; there is am sure will send dread into all of you. Is it fair to no difference. Inevitably, of course, a sitting describe some councillors as “bed blockers”? What do councillor is probably, if unintentionally, given a you do about councillors sitting in safe seats who just slightly easier ride than a new boy or girl, but we have do the bare minimum? tried to prevent that. Robert Neill: Let me put it from our point of view. The contracts are increasingly being used as a tool in Within our process, there are two things. First, there re-selection: “You signed this contract four years ago. is the agreement that has now been in place since You said when you signed this that you would be November last year. Not keeping to the agreement is, doing A, B, C, D and E. If we look at your record”— as I gather from other parties, something that can be and the practice we try to adopt is that a report from taken into account by the selection committee. the group leader and the chief whip goes to the The second point is we have a system whereby selection panel for every councillor who comes back although sitting councillors are entitled to be for re-selection or re-approval—“your group leader automatically considered for re-election by their own has said you have not D or E on this list. What do ward or county council division, they do not have an you say about that?” You give them a chance to talk automatic right of unchallenged re-adoption. It is about that. We hope that that is encouraging a little always open to the branch committee or executive to more engagement by the councillor over their period say, “Yes, we would like to consider other candidates of office. as well as our sitting councillors.” They are kept up to the mark from that point of view. It is part of the Q394 Heather Wheeler: Steve, forgive me, but we job of the leader and the chief whip sometimes to are terribly short of time. Olly, do you want to come make sure that you have words with those who are in? under-performing. We all know that there are informal Olly Buston: I have three quick points. One is that systems within local parties where that message, if it age and ability are not always connected. The second is persistent, gets out. When we draw up the panel of point is that local councillors are not automatically approved candidates for any council area, as well as re-selected; they need to go through a process. The having the party chairman and relevant associations third point links to the councillor contracts that we are there, we also have the group leader and another rolling out, which we hope will drive a culture change representative of the Conservative group. We make throughout the party and allow a carrot and stick sure there is a proper input that can, when appropriate, approach. We will be able to identify training needs cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
Ev 96 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
29 October 2012 Olly Buston, Steve Hitchins and Robert Neill MP and areas where we can provide support to, we hope, Chair: Thank you all very much for coming this improve performance, but ultimately, as Steve was afternoon, spending so much time with us, and saying, they are a tool that can be used in re-selection answering such a range of questions. processes if people are not doing the job properly.
Examination of Witness
Witness: Brandon Lewis MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government, gave evidence.
Q395 Chair: Minister, thank you very much for sure we will come on to, those opportunities are there. coming this afternoon to our inquiry into Councillors That is where we are currently. and the Community. You are most welcome to your It is potentially quite dangerous to start getting too far first appearance before the Select Committee—I am down the line but, if anything, over the next 10 years sure it will not be the last. We will probably be talking I would like to see more and more people from more to you about fire issues in the not too distant future, and more backgrounds getting involved and wanting so something completely different. to be part of that, because they want not just to Just to begin with, one of the issues that has come up represent their community, but to believe they can be in the inquiry from councillors who have given part of it and make a difference for its betterment. evidence is the fact that they come into local government to make a difference. Clearly, how local Q396 Chair: In terms of your personal experience, government operates and is likely to operate in the what motivated you to become a councillor? Many of future is a very important matter for them. Could you us on the Committee were councillors as well. Were say what your vision is for local government and the there things that you felt you were not able to do, or role councillors can play in it? How do you see it barriers in the way that might put other people off changing over the next 10 years, if that is not too big from becoming a councillor, that you can now learn an ask for the first question you are going to have to from and, hopefully, use to influence events in your deal with? new role? Brandon Lewis: My historical thoughts, my current Brandon Lewis: I became a councillor in 1998, so thoughts and the next 10-year programme—okay. things have moved on a little bit from then. When I Thank you. It is a pleasure to be here this afternoon, first became a councillor we were in opposition. I was particularly under your chairmanship, Mr Betts, I have on a council where there were about eight in my group to say that, because, from memory, you chaired my and more than 20 in the leading group, so in that sense first ever Westminster Hall debate as well, so it seems we were not in control of the executive side of the very fitting that my first Select Committee is under council. There was a frustration there, because there your chairmanship. was a view that you had a limited ability as a back- bencher in a small opposition party. However, it did I come to this from the point that, having been a not stop you being able just to represent the views of councillor and having been through the situation your small ward, get on the council and make your where I have known colleagues who are frustrated voice loud and clear. One of the things I have learned because they cannot do things, or sometimes feel that is, whether as an individual or as an authority, if you they have limited power, what we should be doing is are loud enough and smart enough, you can punch making sure that councils and councillors have a real way above your weight in terms of getting things purpose and opportunities to do things, and for them done. That is just about understanding what to feel that they are part of their community and, more opportunities are there and taking advantage of them. importantly, for their community to feel that What I have seen from when I was a councillor, and councillors are representing not the council but the from when I talk to councillors now, is that there is a community. That is why localism and moving power job to do for all of us to help councillors and people down to councillors is so important. But it is not just who are interested in being councillors understand that about power; it is also about getting the message they can do things, particularly now we have through that councillors can have a real purpose. We opportunities with communities’ right to challenge have councillors who are committee-based and and right to bid. Even if you are a back-bencher in a councillors who are cabinet-based. Whichever it is— small district authority, even in opposition, you can whether you are a back-bencher or an executive go and be an absolute champion for your community member of an authority—there is an opportunity to do and your ward, and for the people in that area to get something good for your community. Whether that is involved and work that way. You can make a real something very, very small—and in my experience the difference. There is probably still a job for us to do in pot hole at the end of the street can be the most making people more aware of what those important thing you can do—or something very big in opportunities are and how they can make a difference. changing the whole feel of a town or a community, there is an equally important part to play. That is about Q397 David Heyes: You have just listed some of the us incentivising and motivating people locally to get good reasons why it is a worthwhile thing to involved, and to see that they can make a difference undertake, and you said that we need to do more. We and be part of that. With the new powers, which I am have heard some persuasive evidence that one of the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 97
29 October 2012 Brandon Lewis MP barriers to people becoming councillors is just a sheer whether that is an academy driving itself, that is what lack of understanding of what local government is, that means. If we are starting to say everything has to what councils are and how to become a councillor. go through a local authority—whether it is the police What role should central Government be playing in commissioner, fire and rescue in some areas, or promoting local democracy? What do you do to education—we are coming away from what promote local democracy? decentralisation is about. Brandon Lewis: That becomes complicated in the sense that there are various layers. I know that Q400 James Morris: Is one of the potential political parties will be trying to recruit people locally downsides not that if I am someone aspiring to be a and, in doing that, they will be talking to them about councillor but I look at the landscape and think, “It is why they want to be councillors and going out and confusing. It looks as though the Government want to looking to talk people into being councillors. I know take power away from me and there is a lot more that when I was a council leader, if we met people in direct, democratic intervention,” it creates confusion the community who were doing good things and we in people’s minds about what their role will be as a thought would enjoy it, we would talk to them about councillor in the 21st century, and what they do in wanting to be involved. relation to police and crime commissioners, for In terms of government, there is a whole range of example? things. First, from central Government’s point of view, Brandon Lewis: If people are interested in being there is a fine line between going in heavy-handed to involved in education, they will tend to move towards try to tell local government how to do these things wanting to be a school governor and get involved in and promoting local government. I think the Localism a school. If they are interested in being involved in Act, the general power of competence and some of police commissioning, they might even be running for the things I have just outlined that are giving these police commissioner this year. In that sense, it gives powers locally play a large part in why it becomes people the ability to specialise in a particular area that more important and more useful to be involved suits them and that is good for them. As people get locally. We all, as politicians, then have a job at to learn more about what they can do, whether as a whatever level, whether it is at council level or councillor or a school governor, or whatever their parliamentary level, to promote why local councils interest happens to be, that is likely to be where they matter, how they can make a difference locally, and will start to move. For me, in terms of local that it is a rewarding and important job to do for your government—I do not want to stray too much into community, and therefore get more people motivated the Home Office’s remit—and police commissioners to do it in the first place. being local government, that is about, as I have said already, making people as aware as we can about Q398 David Heyes: Having said that, why did the moving as much power as we can locally and Government repeal the duty to promote democracy? decentralising, so that there is more incentive for Surely that is a key activity of councils. people to want to be involved and see that they can Brandon Lewis: It was not in the first place. For me, make a difference in shaping and forming their that comes back to the line between the Government community. directing local government about what to do. If we are going to have localism, let local authorities develop Q401 James Morris: You cited the community right what they think is right for their area and then promote to challenge provisions in the Localism Act as an it. Good local authorities and good councils would opportunity for local councillors to get involved. Do want to do that. you think that that implies that there will be a different kind of mindset or skill set that councillors will need Q399 James Morris: There is a slight complication to be able to take the opportunities that those that localism, as defined by the Government, does not provisions present? Certain local authorities say that necessarily mean local government. As you have said, the community right to challenge is something they the landscape has become complicated. We have want nothing to do with because it is about trying to police and crime commissioner elections coming break up the monopoly of local government. Should along; we have an education policy that is seeking to councillors have a role in facilitating some of those take LEA control away from education; and the provisions and not be afraid to champion them? Localism Bill has provisions for referendums on Brandon Lewis: Yes, is the short answer. Mr Morris, council tax increases and so on. A lot of that strand I saw your article published today that outlines that of localism is bypassing local authorities and local perfectly, in the sense that on a range of areas—this councillors. In that context, what role do you think being one of them—it is the people and the authorities local councillors have to play in that complicated that grasp an opportunity and run with it, to put it in landscape we have? the colloquial sense, that will gain the most. There Brandon Lewis: That is localism in its truest sense— will be areas that will do this more, and I would love in the sense that it is decentralising power. It is not to see more and more councils making more and more just about moving power from central Government to people aware. metropolitan, unitary, county, district or parish; it is One of the interesting things will be, particularly if about having that tier all the way through across areas. you have a cabinet structure in a district council, for If the most local place for power to be is in the example—and you can have back-benchers who can neighbourhood parish, that is where it should be. If be a bit frustrated because they are not in the cabinet, the most localised place for it to be is in the school, which makes all the decisions—that this is an area cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
Ev 98 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
29 October 2012 Brandon Lewis MP where they can really go back to representing their be fair, the Secretary of State made it very clear on community. That was what I was alluding to in my the Floor of the House that that would apply only if opening remarks: with that right to challenge and that there was a council in a particularly unique position right to be getting involved with their community in of poor performance—the phrase “muscular localism” their local neighbourhood and really making a is no doubt going to go down in history now. But it is difference, they may well make themselves a bit of a the job of Government to lay out a framework and nuisance to the executive. That kind of tension may sometimes give a journey of travel outline, but to let not necessarily be unhealthy. It is about making them local councils get on with it. Whether it is waste or more aware and making local authorities understand even the new scheme of council tax benefit what those opportunities are and welcoming them localisation, it is not compulsory; it is there if you rather than being resistant to them. want to do it.
Q402 James Morris: Is that not quite a radically Q404 Chair: But with a £100 million incentive to different role for a local councillor in the future? If change your system in a certain way right at the last you can imagine a world where community right to minute. We will not go into that necessarily today, challenge really means something, that is quite a although we might come back to it at a future inquiry. radical change in the role of the councillor. Do you Brandon Lewis: I am sure we will have a think that is a good thing? conversation about that at some stage. Brandon Lewis: I would almost answer your question with a question: is it a radical change in what the role Q405 Mark Pawsey: Minister, you will know as well of a councillor should be, or is it a radical change in as anyone that only 4% of councillors come from what councillors do, as opposed to what has been BME communities, that only 30% are women and that done in the past? There are many councillors across the average age has increased in the past few years the country who do brilliant work, and there are some from 55 to 60. Given what you said about handing councillors who get frustrated because they are on the powers down to local communities, is that an issue back bench and they feel they cannot do very much, or that should be left to local people, local communities just have not been able to do very much, for whatever and local political parties, or is it the role of the reason. This is giving them an opportunity. It is really Government to do something about it? giving them a chance to represent their community, Brandon Lewis: I do not think it is the role of which is arguably at the core of what a councillor Government to go in heavy-handed and to regulate, should be there for. That also has a knock-on effect: force and make it happen. I do think it is the role of as more and more people realise what those Government to set that direction of travel and talk opportunities are and what they can do with it, we about it publicly and openly, and for all of us, as should, hopefully, start to see more and more people politicians, particularly if we have been through local wanting to do it from a wider range of backgrounds government as well, to highlight that the best way to and certainly we should be persuading them to do so. represent a community is to have a good mix of In that sense, yes, I think it will be a change, but people. I was very, very fortunate. When I became hopefully for the better and a change that, to an extent, leader of the council that I was on, I had a pretty fair we should have seen a long time ago in people mix. I might be proved wrong on the actual numbers, wanting to get involved and make a difference for but I had roughly 50:50 men and women, give or take. their community. I had the youngest councillor in the country at the time. I had the first 18-year-old, who was the youngest Q403 Chair: Do you understand that some in the country, up to people in their 70s and a pretty councillors might be a little frustrated? They get good spread all the way through. They were also from elected with the view that they are going to serve their different backgrounds as well—different types of community and have difficult decisions to make, and profession and experience. I have always had the view they will conscientiously try to look, for example, at that what made that group a success—I appreciate that refuse collection. After a lot of consideration, they I am slightly biased—and work well as a team was come to the view that alternate weekly collection is having a really good mix of people from all different the best way forward in their area and suddenly they parts of the community who could come together. I get the benefit of “guided localism” and the Secretary do think that political groups on local authorities have of State saying, “You do not know anything about a really important job to do: to look at their your areas. I know best. Weekly collections for community, as we are doing in Parliament, and say, everybody, please”. Then, a few months later, they “Are we representative of our community and what find that they are trying to struggle with all these can we do to make sure we are going out and talking difficult planning applications and they are now told to people who should be involved in representing their they might be the beneficiaries of “muscular localism” part of the community, adding to our team and helping and their planning powers might be taken off them if us make the community better?” I do not think it is they do not behave in a certain way. Do you not think for central Government to go in and make it happen, that is rather discouraging for councillors? because you end up with targets and top-down Brandon Lewis: You touched on waste collection and, structures that are painful and create tension. We of course, people can choose to do what they want. should be encouraging people locally to do it. The Department might well say, “We think this is a particularly good way and we will help facilitate that Q406 Mark Pawsey: Can the Government do if you want to go down that road.” With planning, to anything to encourage it to happen other than simply cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 99
29 October 2012 Brandon Lewis MP talking about it? Could it insist on shortlists, for Brandon Lewis: Again, that is up to the independent example, of different people from different panel locally. Great Yarmouth, my council, is one of backgrounds and communities? the lowest in the country, to be fair. That local Brandon Lewis: It is difficult for the Government to authority with its independent panel can look at that, go in and force something to happen, and go much and take a view on how it works and on whether that beyond talking, persuading and encouraging, because is appropriate for that size authority in that area. That you end up with top-down targets that, in themselves, is a matter for it to look at locally to get a figure that create tensions, whether it is particular types of it thinks is a fair representation of what people are shortlists or anything like that. It needs to be down to doing. There is a difference between that and a the local communities. Groups on councils should be salaried job; I personally do not think it should be looking to encourage people in their communities to salaried. come forward and represent their community. Q410 Simon Danczuk: I am worried that you are Q407 Mark Pawsey: Are there any other ways in not matching your rhetoric, you see, because you said which Government can encourage people to engage earlier that you were keen to get people from all with the local democratic process? different backgrounds involved, but if you are the Brandon Lewis: One of the things that local councils working poor in this country, the chances are that you can be doing is looking at themselves and how they would not be able to be a councillor. You might be function and run, and asking whether that is conducive working overtime to get money into the household. to allowing people to be involved. You mentioned the You would not be able to afford child care costs to age range of people. One of the problems for people cover political meetings, would you? You might be in of working age is that councils that meet during the insecure employment. You could not survive on day can be very, very difficult. I know employers will £2,400. On the one hand, your rhetoric is about give people time off, but there is a limit to what you involving a wider, broader spectrum of people, but, on can do. Smaller councils will often meet in the the other hand, you are not prepared to put your evenings and look at their membership and try to money where your mouth is and pay these people, or arrange their meetings and the way the council works give them a decent amount of money to be able to live off. so that people from different backgrounds may be more involved. Again, that has to be locally driven, Brandon Lewis: It is not my money to give them; it because every councillor in every community will is the taxpayers’ money and the residents’ money. That is why I come back to the fact that it is for the have a different area to represent and therefore slightly people in that area. I am not saying whether £2,500 is different needs. too little or whether £25,000 is too much. My point is that it is for that local authority, with its independent Q408 Simon Danczuk: Do you agree with the leader panel, to look at what is right to be able to allow of Hertfordshire County Council that allowances are people to come in and do that job and represent their “high enough to offend the public but not high enough community with the pressures and the time involved to encourage any sane person to give up their career of the local authority. To go beyond that, you are and earning capacity to take the role on”? tempting me into centralising it again, and I think it Brandon Lewis: Some councils are different from should be something that is done locally. others, I suspect. I saw a press release last week about a council—I think it was Cornwall—that was talking Q411 Simon Danczuk: So you do not see any about raising its allowances by 20%. In the current correlation between the size of allowances that are climate, that is a very unusual decision to be looking offered and the kind of people who come forward for to take. Councils should be looking quite carefully at election as councillors. that, particularly at a time when every household is Brandon Lewis: I have no doubt at all that there could squeezed. If we are looking at councils to play their be a correlation between how much somebody is paid part and then they put up allowances, there is a in an allowance—whether it is an allowance to be a question mark. councillor, or a special allowance to be a senior The issue of allowances has always been a difficult member of an executive—and whether people come one. When I first became a councillor it was in the forward. What I am saying is that I do not think it is times when you did not get allowances. I think it was for central Government to decide what allowance £13 for a meeting, if you claimed it after a certain time should be set for a particular district, county, unitary or something like that. It has changed dramatically in or other council. It is for them, with their independent that time. Again, different areas will have different panels, to work that out and to come up with a figure needs; there will be different commitments from that works correctly for them and represents their councillors depending on what level they work at and community properly. what type of authority they are in. That needs to be driven by what is right locally and, if people get Q412 Simon Danczuk: Why not have a national carried away, the democratic process is a pretty system—an independent body to help set it? For powerful process to be aware of. example, IPSA is now talking about setting our MPs’ allowances. There will not be a vote on it; it will be Q409 Simon Danczuk: We had councillors here last set by IPSA. The increase will be determined by week and the annual allowance was about £2,400. IPSA. Why not have the same system for local That is derisory, is it not? It is abysmal. councillors? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
Ev 100 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
29 October 2012 Brandon Lewis MP
Brandon Lewis: Again, you are tempting me into can do that, because all they have got to do is just centralising when I believe in localising and accept what the independent body says. decentralisation. Q417 Chair: But we have been here in Parliament Q413 Simon Danczuk: I am just asking you for the with that before, have we not? We have had that argument as to why you would not do that. situation and it is never the right time to accept and Brandon Lewis: Because that would be to move away that is what council leaders have told us here. I just from localisation and decentralising power. I think we wonder whether there is a way, just as we have now should trust local authorities to come up with the right simply said to IPSA, “You do it; we are not going to schemes with their independent panels, and I do not vote on it,” that a council would be allowed to be in think it is for central Government to do it. Equally, if the same position if it wanted to be. central Government were to go out to all of the district Brandon Lewis: That is something that is worth us councils across the country and come up with a having a look at, yes. scheme, by definition they would be likely to be tempted into using one-size-fits-all, and I do not think Q418 Chair: Okay. Secondly, something we heard that works. The needs you have would be different in earlier is that a problem is that what might be a a very small district authority with a turnover of a few reasonable allowance for someone who is retired and million pounds—sometimes you have parishes that keeps their income—they might have their private are bigger than that—compared with big metropolitan pension as well as their state pension, so the authorities, unitaries and counties. It is right that in allowance is a top-up—is very different, if it is the different parts of the country, and in different areas same amount, than for someone who has lost a couple within it, those local panels, with the independent of days work and loses more in pay than they gain in people involved, get to choose what they think is right the allowance. Would it be possible to have a look at for their communities. If they are not getting the right something like a loss of earnings, which used to exist? people coming forward, again it is for the local The electorate might be more understanding of community and the local council to look at it and ask: someone not losing out on their income because they “Have we got this figure right? Is it right in terms of are spending time on council work, but people not what it recompenses people for the time they are gaining it if they do not lose the income in the first giving up?” and take a view on that. But I personally place? do not think it is for central Government to go in and Brandon Lewis: Again, at the moment, that is start dictating that. something for local panels to have a look at. The problem is that if a local council says £2,500 is the Q414 Simon Danczuk: But when Cornwall, as you allowance, I am not sure that it is right that somebody were saying earlier, decides to increase allowances by should get more or less than that. Putting aside 20%, it gets criticised by the local government whether they get special responsibility allowances, if Minister, which is what you have just done. On the they are a back bencher and that is what they get, one hand, you are saying it is for local decision whether they are retired or not does not change the makers— level of responsibility they have got for being a Brandon Lewis: Absolutely, yes. councillor. When we start talking about if they have to give up work to attend council meetings, it comes Q415 Simon Danczuk: But then you criticise them. down to why I say that councils should look carefully Brandon Lewis: There is a difference, because I am at how they structure their meetings to make sure the not the one who is going to go in and tell them people in the community can be involved. But you do whether they can do it or not. I am just saying I think make a fair point, which I will have a look at, in terms it is a very, very odd decision to make in an economic of how that is structured. That is an interesting point climate like this, and the ballot box generally tends to and I will have a look at that. do a pretty good job of dealing with those situations. But if Cornwall feels it are doing the right thing and Q419 Chair: Maybe as an alternative, instead of an the people of Cornwall think that is the right thing to allowance for some people, they could have a loss of do, that is fine for Cornwall. earnings. Would you be prepared to have a look at that and give us some indication? Q416 Chair: Just let me pick two points up very Brandon Lewis: I will come back to you on that, if briefly. First of all, if a local authority wanted to you do not mind.2 exercise its decision making in the same way that we in Parliament have chosen to with regard to our pay— Q420 Bill Esterson: We had a witness who told us in other words, to appoint an independent body and that the jobcentre told her not to put the fact she was allow the decision to be made by that body; not a councillor on her CV, and other councillors have simply advice, but the decision—should councils be told us that they were turned down for jobs because allowed to do that? they were councillors. Do you think that is right? Brandon Lewis: At the moment, they have to have an Should there be legislation to prevent discrimination independent body, but you are right that it does come against people for being councillors, in terms of back to the council to sign it off. I do not hold a employment? particularly strong view on that, so I will have a think Brandon Lewis: I have not heard that, so I am not about it and come back to you.1 To an extent, they going to comment on specific cases, but it is very 1 See ev 186 2 See ev 186 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 101
29 October 2012 Brandon Lewis MP disappointing. If anybody is discriminated against for daytime meetings so they do not have extra child care any reason, it is wrong anyway. to pay for. It is not easy. Brandon Lewis: Yes. There are councils that will look Q421 Bill Esterson: Should there be legislation if at that and work out how they structure their meetings that is happening? to try to suit the members they have. I know there are Brandon Lewis: I have not seen any specific cases. I councils that have certain committees that will meet do not doubt you have got some examples. If you have during the day, if it suits the members on those a specific example, I would be very happy to have a committees. They will structure it that way and I think look at it and see what was behind it before I start that is a very sensible way of doing it. commenting in a broader sense on any specific issues. Q427 Chair: Does that not sometimes just suit the Q422 Bill Esterson: On the other side of what the councillors who are there, but discourage other people Chair was just asking you about people being from becoming councillors who might not be suited compensated for time off work, what about to those particular times? compensating small businesses for losing people, in Brandon Lewis: That again comes back to why it is particular? Bigger businesses can usually manage if important that the local councils have the power to someone is not there for a few hours, but for smaller work out locally what is right for them, their members businesses, in particular, should there be and their community, rather than having us try to do compensation for councillors and the contribution that centrally. Whatever you come up with, a they are making? one-size-fits-all approach does not work. It is very Brandon Lewis: That is where this whole issue difficult even within one authority, as you have just becomes very complicated and very difficult, because outlined, let alone across the country with lots of it becomes open-ended—both financially and in terms different types of authorities. of how you structure. It makes it, again, very difficult even if you wanted, which I do not, to have a central Q428 Heather Wheeler: We have had some system, because in every different place, every interesting conversations about councillors who are business and every person could make a case with “bed blockers” and those who are incompetent. Do very different numbers and very different figures. you think there is any sort of role for the Government to ensure that councillors do a competent job? Brandon Lewis: It is difficult for central Government Q423 Bill Esterson: But equally, that particular issue to take a view on what every individual councillor is could not be dealt with by an independent panel either. doing on every council. We have to trust local Brandon Lewis: No, but as I say, that is what makes authorities and the councillors on those authorities to it much more complicated and what makes the whole work out what is right for them, and local political thing very difficult. But equally, again, it does come parties and other parties to work out what is right for back to why I think it is important that local them. If people are not good enough, there are authorities look at who their members are and work opportunities there, whether it is with some of the out, as far as they can, a system for having their schemes the LGA or the NALC run, to give people meetings to facilitate members being able to play a training. Many local authorities themselves will run full and active role in that council. training to help councillors to improve their skill set and do their job better, and that is very important. But Q424 Bill Esterson: And you would look at the for central Government to get involved in that would possibility of compensating businesses. be quite difficult and potentially quite dangerous. Brandon Lewis: I have never looked at the possibility of compensating businesses. What I would much Q429 Heather Wheeler: That is interesting. As a rather councils do, which would be far more cost- CLG Minister, do you think that the DCLG should effective and time-effective, is look at how they can put out an agreed set of performance standards for run their meetings so that councillors involved in that councillors across the country? Does the Department council can be part of it. For example, when I was a have any stats or evidence about whether the quality council leader, our council meetings were in the of councillors is going up or down? evenings to enable people to be at those meetings Brandon Lewis: The problem with judging that is rather than during the day. about who is making the judgment call on whether somebody is effective or not. I am a passionate Q425 Bill Esterson: There is a lot more to being a believer in the ballot box. For all the criticism some councillor than just going to meetings though. people can occasionally give it, I think that generally Brandon Lewis: Absolutely, yes, but I do not see the ballot box will get it right when deciding whether being a councillor as a full-time job. somebody is fit to be a councillor or not. We should deal with that at the ballot box and trust the good Q426 Chair: We have had this discussion with quite people of the electorate to deal with it. For us in a lot of people and the complication is of having central Government to start asking local authorities to meetings at times that suit everyone, because someone make a judgment call and feed back to us would not who is working might appreciate an evening meeting, only put another burden on local authorities, which I apart from the fact there are maybe still community think they could well do without and for which they organisations that want to see them during the day; probably would not thank us, but would start to move however, someone who has children might want away from what the ballot box is about. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 14:05] Job: 023547 Unit: PG05 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_o005_db_121029 HC 432-v corrected transcript.xml
Ev 102 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence
29 October 2012 Brandon Lewis MP
Q430 Heather Wheeler: The final thing is Q435 Mark Pawsey: I wonder if I might ask you as completely different, really. We have heard evidence well about the different forms of local government. from councillors about the tsunami of e-mails, Brandon Lewis: You are tempting me into casework and what have you that they have to take reorganising local government from the top, which I on. Do you think it is appropriate that councillors am going to resist. should have a paid assistant to help with their casework? Q436 Mark Pawsey: Well that is the next one, Brandon Lewis: Again, that is up to local authorities. Minister, because our structure of local government is If they feel that is something that is right for them and very confusing for somebody sitting outside it who is they can afford to do it, it is a judgment call for the a community activist who wants to get involved in local authority, but it sounds like a very expensive their local community—it is pretty complicated. Some route to go down to me. areas are two-tier. We have unitaries—we have some massive unitaries with more than 120 members on Q431 Mark Pawsey: Minister, we have heard them—and we have metropolitans. Does the system evidence that some of the best recruits as new local of local government militate against somebody who councillors are people who started off as community has got a genuine local interest coming forward as activists. Community activists start off at the most a councillor? local level and the most local level is parish councils. Brandon Lewis: It can be a complicated system. We I know the Government are doing some work on have got parishes that are bigger than some districts. encouraging town and parish councils to set up. What But, to my mind, that is kind of the beauty of it, is the progress there? because what has happened over the years—it is still Brandon Lewis: We are moving towards making sure happening is those local communities—is that those we make it easier. We have developed a consultation local areas and councils, at whatever level, have paper setting out the options for making it easier to evolved and developed to be what their community is set up these councils where they do not currently best served by. It will continue to evolve that way. exist. This includes looking at how new That is one of the beauties of our system—it can move neighbourhood forums can come together easily and and evolve, rather than being forced and directed. straightforwardly, and we plan to publish that consultation very soon. Q437 Mark Pawsey: But it is confusing for somebody who moves around the country from one Q432 Mark Pawsey: Is there any work the place to another. Is there anything that the Department Department can do to encourage community activists can do to facilitate understanding of the structures of to make the transition towards becoming councillors? local government? Would that, in itself, encourage Brandon Lewis: As we were saying earlier, it is for more people to come forward as councillors? all of us to be talking up the opportunities so that Brandon Lewis: That is also, I would argue, the people want to be part of it, and it is about making temptation and the challenge as you move around the sure we are creating those opportunities and moving country—you can go from one type of authority to that power locally so that people can see that if they another and try something different. All of us as get involved, they can make a difference for their politicians—and certainly in government—have to community and be an important part of it. make sure that we are clear about the what value and importance a local councillor can have in their Q433 Mark Pawsey: In terms of encouraging people community, why that matters, what they can do and to take up the role of councillor, do you think that is what their powers are, so that people want to be part facilitated by single-member wards or multi-member of it. Whether that community is one that is run wards? In a multi-member ward, can somebody hide primarily locally by a parish council with a district and let the other guys get on with it, or is it better to and a county or a unitary or a metropolitan is encourage people to come forward as councillors in a irrelevant. If you want to get involved and do single-member ward where their work is much more something for your community, get involved with visible? whatever that structure is where you are. Brandon Lewis: I think that it is for those local authorities to take a view on what is right for them— Q438 Chair: The Government will not be they can do that. I know there are some local implementing Lord Heseltine’s report, then. authorities that are looking at whether they want to Brandon Lewis: You tempt me into commenting on change their set-up—from three to two or to one, as something that is not yet published. I will wait and it were—and that is a matter for them to work through read the report before I comment in too much detail with the boundary commission. on that one, but we have been clear about our position on unitary authorities. Q434 Mark Pawsey: But have you got a view about Chair: Minister, thank you very much indeed for which model would be more attractive to a new coming and answering our questions this afternoon. potential recruit coming forward as a councillor? Brandon Lewis: Thank you. Brandon Lewis: No. I think that is a matter for the local area and, again, it is down to the local community to work out what is right for them. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 103
Written evidence
Written evidence from the Department for Communities and Local Government (CC 00) Your Committee has called for evidence to support its enquiry into the role councillors play in their communities. Our country has a long and strong tradition of people serving their community as elected councillors. This ranges from parish councillors in our smallest villages to city councillors who are at the heart of the proud civic traditions of the country’s great cities. In every case councillors being the democratic elected representatives of their communities, are uniquely placed to contribute to their communities’ wellbeing. In short, being a councillor is an embodiment of community service and volunteering, which must be the backdrop to any consideration of councillors’ allowances. Councillors are fundamentally volunteers; they should not become de facto salaried staff. We do not agree with the proposals on allowances made by the Councillors Commission under the last Administration. As a former councillor myself, I’ve seen first hand the role councillors play in the community. It takes a particular sort of person to become a councillor. You don’t go into it for the fame or the fortune but because you care about the area you live in and believe it is possible to make things better for the people you represent. Being a councillor isn’t for the fainthearted. You have to put in the hours, do the hard graft for your community. But it also brings its own reward. Every councillor I know has a story to tell about, this person helped back onto their feet or, that community that is beginning to thrive. Councillors I know still subscribe to a notion—as relevant today as ever—that politics can make a difference. And because they have that belief, that passion, that “can do” attitude, they do make a difference. No-one knows their neighbourhoods better, no-one has a better grasp of the issues on the doorstep and no- one is in a better position to do something about it. Our reforms are designed to give the community spirited among us the best possible chance of improving their areas. With our commitment to localism, we are clear that it is communities themselves, particularly the many voluntary organisations within them, including political parties, who are necessarily at the forefront of encouraging and supporting people to put themselves forward as candidates for election. Equally, it is to their communities and councils that elected councillors rightly look for support. In addition, the local government sector, through for example the Local Government Association (LGA), has a part to play in helping elected members to develop their expertise and capacity to fulfil their role. It is through its decisions and the legislation that Parliament enacts, that Government creates opportunities for councillors and the communities they represent to become more empowered, enabling local people materially to shape their own day to day lives—localism in action. Particular measures which we are taking that create such opportunities and hence impact on the role of councillors include: — the introduction of neighbourhood planning, enabling communities to come together to shape the development and growth of their local area through the production of a neighbourhood development plan or neighbourhood development order; — the re-introduction of the committee system through the Localism Act which allows councils to return to this form of governance if they wish; a system which allows for greater engagement of all councillors in decision-making, rather than restricting major decision-making to “frontbench” councillors; — the right to build, which gives local communities new powers to create the buildings they want without using the normal planning application process; — the community right to challenge—under which community groups, in which local councillors can play a part, will be able to bid to run local authority services; — the community right to bid, which will give communities a right to nominate a building or other land which is of importance to their community’s social well-being or social interests (which include cultural, sporting or recreational interests), for listing as an asset of community value; when a listed asset is to be sold, local community groups will have a fairer chance to make a bid to buy it on the open market; — the abolition of the Standards Board regime that potentially weakened the effectiveness of local councillors by giving rise to so many petty, vexatious allegations; — legislating on predetermination to allow councillors to speak out more freely for their communities on important issues such as planning proposals affecting the locality; and — issuing a Code of Recommended Practice for Local Authorities on Data Transparency that has led to councils throwing open its doors to the public, increasing the accountability, and hence effectiveness, of local councillors. Following the Open Public Services White Paper, we will be consulting on how to make it easier to set up town and parish councils and we are working with the LGA and the National Association of Local Councils cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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on how such councils can become more involved in service delivery—all such steps increasing the roles of councillors at the most local level. Through our commitment to localism and the range of measures we are undertaking, the Government is significantly expanding the opportunities for local councillors to serve their communities and help local people take control their lives and localities. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Councillors—of all political parties and none— who are taking on responsibility, making a difference, helping their local residents, every day of the week in Councils right across the country. May 2012
Written evidence from Robert Howard (CC 02) Executive Summary Section 1: The role of councillors as leaders of communities. Para 1.1 Ward councillors do not have the power to act like leaders. Section 2: Turning ward councillors into de facto leaders and “mini-mayors”. Para 2.1 Voters should elect two types of councillors for their local authority area. Section 3: Skills and training if you want to be a councillor. Para 3.2 Existing councillors should pay a levy to cover the cost of training courses. Section 4: What it costs to stand a good chance of becoming a councillor. Para 4.4 Standing for election as a councillor can be expensive, so local authorities should publish ward election brochures containing statements from all the candidates. Section 5: Councillors and work. Para 5.1 Being a ward councillor should not be seen as a “primary occupation”. Section 6: Helping councillors and personal commitments. Para 6.1 Every councillor should be able to appoint a part-time paid “Assistant”. Section 7: The role of communities in how councillors make decisions. Para 7.2 Ward councillors should be “mini-mayors”. Section 8: Final observations. Para 8.4 Councillors at their best are innovative and inspiring; at their worst, time serving and parochial. Section 9: Appendix—Urban Forum workshop presentation, “Local Action: communities and councillors working together”, Westminster Hall, 29 June 2010. Section 10: About the person making this submission.
1. The Role of Councillors as Leaders of Communities 1.1 Councillors should be recognised for what they are—de facto leaders. They have this position because they have been elected and are often the first point of contact not just for local residents, but for businesses and the media as well. The trouble is that all too few councillors have the power to act like the leaders that they are expected to be and this, in my experience, is why so many local residents and potential councillors are sceptical about what a councillor can do. This is often misinterpreted as “cynicism”. 1.2 In inner-city Lenton, Nottingham, where I live, people don’t go around saying that our ward councillors are in it for themselves, but they do ask, “why can’t they get a pavement repaired or a park fence mended?” Then there’s the phasing of crossing lights outside the health centre, cycling on pavements or why did a local care service have to close and its work be taken over by a national charity? These are just a few examples of the things which feed local voters’ scepticism. The plain truth is that it takes ages to get the simplest of things done because ward councillors almost everywhere have to refer these questions to a local authority department or the lead councillor/cabinet member/portfolio holder, call them what you will, who will then have to authorise that the change/expenditure can go ahead. 1.3 These seemingly simple matters can be further complicated when a community is served by two or more councillors from different political parties who are trying to represent the same ward, or the council itself is controlled by a different political party to that of the ward councillor. “Independent” councillors are not above such problems. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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1.4 As things stand, most individual councillors are made as good as powerless by such things and depend on the patronage of a ruling elite of councillors if they want to achieve the simplest of things in their ward. Even when you are part of such “elites”, as I have been in the past, your ward abilities are constrained. On too many occasions I was taken aside by the Council Leader and told to “back off” or “stop making waves” because my actions were upsetting another senior councillor or an officer who had the ear of the leader or some other councillor more powerful within the party group than me. 1.5 I suspect that most MPs know this to be true and have some experience of such things themselves. Bad enough when there are over 600 of you. Intolerable to some, like myself, when you are part of a group counted in tens rather than hundreds. I say all this because I believe the present system pretends that councillors are leaders when the actual power that they have within their wards tells us that they are, for the most part, at the mercy of others. Voters know this and is a reason why many choose not to vote.
2. Turning Ward Councillors into de facto Leaders and “Mini–Mayors” by creating Single Member Wards 2.1 Voters should elect two types of councillors for their local authority area: 2.2 Ward councillors able to control doorstep policies, budgets, services and facilities for their own single member ward. They would also act as “scrutinisers” when it came to the work of the strategic councillors in the same local authority areas. What I am proposing might be described as a system of “mini-mayors”. Such a system would enable councillors to be innovative, able to pioneer new approaches to neighbourhood governance which other councillors may adopt or adapt to meet the needs of their ward. 2.3 Strategic councillors, elected by all the voters in a local authority area, would take the lead in strategic policies, budgets, services and facilities. Voters could choose to elect an executive mayor instead. In the recent Nottingham mayoral referendum I actively worked for the “no” campaign in the absence of any empowering of ward councillors. If ward councillors could become “mini-mayors” I would almost certainly support of the election of an executive mayor for the Greater Nottingham conurbation. 2.4 All councillors should represent single member wards because this will strengthen their role and position within the community or the cluster of communities/neighbourhoods which they represent. As a result, they are likely to become better known to more of their electorate and others whom they serve. Voters will, I believe, be more likely to engage in the political process by voting and attending meetings etc when they see that their councillor actually has the power to do things and can make decisions quickly. 2.5 Perhaps more importantly, single member wards will encourage more voters to seek election and this, of itself, will encourage and support diversity and make becoming a councillor not only easier, but a more competitive process as well. It will also make it easier for “independent” ward councillors to be elected. 2.6 How? Take Nottingham. At present it has 55 councillors representing 20 wards (a mix of two and three member wards), many of which are clusters of communities and neighbourhoods. Nottingham has about 20–22 “self–defining” communities, 14 of which existed in 1086 when the Domesday Book was created. If each of these communities existed as a ward in their own right, the number of voters per ward would range from c2,500 to c14,000, but I believe some of the smaller ones would want to work together and be part of one ward—this was something which the communities of Dunkirk and Lenton (where I live) decided to do in 1996 when local groups and individuals came together to create the Dunkirk and Lenton Partnership Forum, which still exists in 2012, with its own paid workers. It acts as a local support service and co-ordinating body, publishing a community newspaper delivered to some 5,000 households (the next issue will be No. 50). 2.7 There will be those who say “This won’t work because of the disparity in the number of voters per ward”, but if the role of a ward councillor relates to the community they “want to serve” (as 88% of councillors say they want to do), this should not be an issue, especially if you elect my proposed strategic councillors with local authority-wide powers and responsibilities. 2.8 According to a spreadsheet (summary-table-for-all-authorities-website-protected-version) published by the Local Government Boundary Commission for England, based on data collected in December 2010, the size of English wards at district, unitary and county level range from 1,776 (West Somerset) to 18,709 (Birmingham). I am convinced that many communities, probably most of them, would choose either alone or collectively to have one elected ward councillor with the powers to run local services and be, in effect, a mini- mayor and that this person would be their de facto leader and representative. 2.9 I believe that “sense of place” trumps numbers any day and democracy does itself a disservice when it puts electoral numbers before the natural geographic boundaries of any one community.
3. Skills and Training if you want to be a Councillor 3.1 It should go without saying that training courses for all would-be councillors should be easily accessible and free. The courses should cover not just council budgets, procedures, the law or the civic aspect of being a councillor etc, but also campaigning and publicity skills and these courses should be paid for by a small percentage levy on the allowances paid to all existing councillors. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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3.2 If existing councillors can make “voluntary” contributions from their councillor allowances to their respective political parties (eg In Nottingham, Labour councillors pay a 10% levy, which amounts to over £100,000 per annum), then they can easily pay a levy to cover the cost of training courses for would-be councillors at an estimated cost of £2,000, assuming the course organisers have the free use of council premises. In Nottingham’s case this would amount to a 0.2% levy on total allowances of £1,037,776 in 2011–12. 3.3 From what I know of existing councillors, many will need training if they are to become the community leaders they should be. The present system of multi-member wards enables many councillors happily to take a back seat, doing what is asked of them and not much else.
4. What it Costs to Stand a Good Chance of becoming a Councillor, why many don’t bother and a New way to Ensure Fairness 4.1 The other aspect to being a councillor which rarely gets mentioned is that of organising and funding an election campaign. If you are a member of a political party this can be made a lot easier. Your party is likely to organise campaign training, provide an election agent and funding, but I accept that this does not always happen, so prospective councillors have to fall back on themselves and, if they are lucky, a small group of active supporters. 4.2 In my experience a dedicated team of six to 10 people is enough to fight a good ward election campaign, with double this number on election day itself. The cost of a basic black and white A4 leaflet folded to A5 in Nottingham is £50 (£95 per 1,000 such leaflets), so in a small ward like Dunkirk and Lenton, where I live, with 5,000 households, every leaflet will cost at least £240, assuming you have the skills to do your own origination. Producing and circulating a leaflet four times a year equals £960 per annum and during election year itself you have to do this monthly. Assuming you begin your campaign six months after the last election, any one candidate in a single member ward with 5,000 households should expect to spend at least £5,000. 4.3 This is a lot of money by any measure and is, in my experience, the biggest reason why more individuals don’t stand as candidates. They also know that even if they manage to get elected, they face four years of isolation on the back benches. 4.4 My solution to this problem is that the local authority should publish an election brochure containing statements from all the candidates in much the same way as political parties, trade unions and pension funds do when they send out ballot papers to their members. These would be delivered to every registered voter in the ward. In return for this service, all the candidates would be expected to contribute to the cost of printing the brochure (but not its distribution).
5. Councillors and Work 5.1 Being a ward councillor should not be seen as “a career” or a “primary occupation”. A councillor should have a wider perspective of the community (and local authority) which he or she serves. Their role should not be confused with that of local authority employees. In many ways, with “cabinet” style councils and executive “portfolio” councillors who can spend millions without reference to any committee, the role of “back bench” councillors is reduced to that of being little more than scrutinisers and serving out their time on “area” committees with few powers or direct responsibilities, apart from handing out what small discretionary amounts of money they have. 5.2 I know of councillors who have been isolated by their colleagues for not conforming; for being over enthusiastic on behalf of the ward and communities they are trying to serve. Some leave the group, others are ditched during the re-selection process if they seek to stand again as a councillor. Others, like me, walk away, convinced they can actually do more for their community in other ways. 5.3 Being a councillor is time consuming. It always has been. Matters have not been made any easier by the “professionalisation” of councillors’ work, with daytime meetings, and ever larger local authorities covering larger geographical areas. It is this which has led to councils often being run by councillor elites—and it is the members of this group who I see as becoming the new strategic councillors I have already referred to, or who could be replaced by an executive mayor if this was the choice of the voters. These councillors should be regarded as full-time and paid accordingly, bearing in mind that many will have powers and responsibilities which exceed those of any back bench Member of Parliament. 5.4 Ward councillors/mini-mayors based in their local community or nearby, if central facilities and services were easily accessible, could work much more flexibly and organise evening meetings and work with staff expected to work evenings (and weekends occasionally). This would have less impact on councillors’ existing employment and help minimise the days they need to take off from work (which can be especially difficult when working for a small business). 5.5 The basic councillor allowance in Nottingham is £965 per month (£11,582 per annum), which I regard as sufficient for being a “super” community volunteer if we are to believe that the main reason that they are a councillor is because they want to serve their community. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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6. Helping Councillors and Personal Commitments
6.1 Ideally, every councillor should be able to appoint a part-time remunerated “Councillor’s Assistant” to assist them with casework, research and to act as clerk to their ward forum(s) in the absence of an existing parish or town council. This person would be akin to a town council manager or parish clerk. In other words, non–political and able to serve successive councillors while, in the process, building up a bank of local ward knowledge of invaluable benefit not just to the ward councillor, but to the community as a whole. This person would be paid the same as the ward councillor.
6.2 I lost my job in 1971 not long after being elected a Labour Party city councillor in Birmingham. My then employer paid me a large sum of money to leave which I accepted because it was enough to pay off our mortgage at the time. In 1983, I again lost my job, in part because my duties as Chair of East Midlands Airport took up too much of my time, so for two years I became a full–time county councillor.
6.3 The practicalities of being a councillor are demanding, especially if you have family commitments. I can fairly claim to have been the first Birmingham city councillor to have taken his children along to council events and others soon followed my example. Not that this prevented my first marriage ending in divorce and I think that the large amount of casework I had to do was a factor in what happened. A steady stream of visitors to our front door and telephone calls every day, plus living in the ward I represented, didn’t help. I met my present (second) wife through my work as a councillor and I think it fair to say that we have been, and are, supportive of one another in the community work which we have both undertaken.
6.4 I tell you all this because I have worked with candidates and councillors in many capacities over the years and seen at close quarters how it impacts on work and family life. Being a councillor is a wonderful thing, but it is much harder now than at any time in the past—which is why I wanted to submit this evidence and to argue the case for having two types of councillors in the same local authority area.
6.5 Under my proposals, there would be fewer councillors, but they would all be of importance and have a powerful role to play in how our 21st century communities are governed.
7. The Role of Communities in how Councillors make Decisions
7.1 Individual ward councillors should have to work with statutory ward “partnership forums”, open to ward residents, local businesses and voluntary sector service providers working in the ward where “matters of mutual interest” can be discussed and the councillor’s activities publicly scrutinised. If a parish or town council already exists for all or part of a councillor’s ward, this will act as the forum.
7.2 Because my ward councillors would be “mini-mayors” able to respond quickly as and when a situation demanded action, I am confident there would be more public interest in their activities and local expectations of what a councillor should do and be would be much higher as well.
7.3 The councillor’s paid assistant would act as clerk to the forum, but where a partnership forum exists already, they would take on the assistant’s responsibilities—in the same way an existing town or parish council would.
7.4 The forum and the ward councillor would meet together to discuss the councillor’s activities and to receive a financial report at least four times a year, with a published “State of the Ward” address annually, which would be delivered to all households. In between the forum meetings, the councillor may well work with forum members and other interested parties on matters relating to specific services, facilities or events in much the same way as such a body might do already. The great beauty of this approach is that it would be a “living democracy”—able to deal with the day-to-day practicalities of a councillor’s responsibilities whilst always looking for new ways to engage with the wider community and to promote a sense of place.
7.5 Life has taught me that local communities and ward councillors everywhere have the ability to manage their own affairs, from rural villages to inner-city wards. All they need are the resources and the opportunity. I hope I have demonstrated how you can achieve the latter. As for the former, the starting point would be existing council budgets which already allocate revenue and capital across services and facilities, often managed by area managers. The local authority still manages the resources, writes the cheques and issues the budgetary codes. The only difference is that the ward councillor and their assistant prepare the budget and authorise expenditure and decide local charges.
7.6 Existing provision is often unfair, with some communities being favoured over others, so the ward councillors and their strategic councillor colleagues/mayor would have to agree a formula for how resources could be allocated to wards as fairly as possible. Models for doing this exist already and should need little more than tweaking. We are not reinventing the wheel. We’re just adding a few gears so that it can cope better with the local terrain.
7.7 Until now, overseeing local budgets has been the preserve of the local council elite. My living democracy approach gives this responsibility to ward councillors and local communities. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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7.8 At the end of this memorandum is an appendix. It is a copy of the hand-out I produced for an Urban Forum workshop, “Local Action: communities and councillors working together” which I led at the “Rethinking Public Services” conference organised by the Local Government Information Unit and National Council of Voluntary Organisations on 29 June 2010 in Westminster Hall.
8. Some Final Observations 8.1 We forget all too easily that the drivers of social change have, for the most part, been local people, some in small villages, others in large cities, who have pioneered so many of the things we now take for granted. Even our most beloved of national institutions, the NHS, has its roots in what was already happening in countless towns and cities. The same is true for housing, parks, schools, welfare services, public transport, bus passes and utilities and so much more. 8.2 At times I despair at the lack of faith we have in local communities to manage their own affairs and came to the conclusion a long time ago that it is all about power and the desire on the part of some politicians, both local and national, to control everything. 8.3 At the end of the day, I don’t care what you call it. “The Big Society”, “Localism”, “Neighbourhood Democracy” or whatever you want. The test of your commitment is your willingness to actually empower local communities and their elected councillors to get on with what they can do better than anyone else. In other words it all boils down to good local governance. 8.4 Councillors at their best are innovative and inspiring; at their worst, time serving and parochial. 8.5All the evidence suggests that where and when money is limited, local communities offer better value for money when it comes to doorstep services and scrutiny. How we manage local services and facilities should by decided by ward councillors in partnership with their communities. It’s as simple as that.
9. APPENDIX 9.1 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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9.2
9.3 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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9.4
10. About the Person Making this Submission
10.1 1971–78, Birmingham city councillor, chaired Youth & Community and the Midlands Area Museum Service, served on committees for Birmingham Airport, Leisure and Planning and the Standing Commission for Museums and Galleries.
10.2 1981–85, Nottinghamshire county councillor, chaired East Midlands Airport and county Youth & Community Sub-committee and served on Leisure Committee.
10.3 C1982–93, Chaired rating and council tax valuation tribunals in Nottinghamshire.
10.4 Lost job twice whilst serving as a councillor (1971 and 1983).
10.5 1960–to date, Labour Party member with extensive experience as an election agent, compiling manifestos and managing election campaigns at both ward and local authority level.
10.6 1996, co–founder Dunkirk and Lenton Partnership Forum and twice chair.
10.7 1999, author of new ward boundary proposals for Nottingham City Council which were partly adopted by Local Government Boundary Commission for England.
10.8 1980–2006, Lenton Community Association (LCA) chair on several occasions. In 1994, 2000 and 2004 led campaigns to keep the local authority owned Lenton Leisure Centre and swimming pool open when confronted with Nottingham City Council plans to close the centre. The centre finally closed in 2004, but in 2005 the City Council sold the building to LCA for £10, and the building then became The Lenton Centre (TLC). The swimming pool re-opened in 2008 and TLC has since won national acclaim as a flagship community led social enterprise.
10.9 For many years an active member of the Association for Neighbourhood Democracy (AND), then chaired by the late Sir Dick Knowles, former Leader of Birmingham City Council, but switched some years ago to arguing for councillors to be given more control over “doorstep” services.
10.10 2010, Urban Forum workshop, “Local Action: communities and councillors working together” at “Rethinking Public Services” conference organised by the Local Government Information Unit and National Council of Voluntary Organisations in Westminster Hall. May 2012 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Written evidence from Age UK (CC 03)
The Communities and Local Government Committee is conducting an inquiry into the role councillors play in their communities. The inquiry will cover a range of aspects of a councillor’s role. Age UK has a particular interest in the aspect of this inquiry focusing on the role of councillors as leaders of communities and neighbourhoods.
Key Points and Recommendations
Age UK believes that understanding and acting on the views and needs of older people is central to any councillor’s role. They are in a position to challenge the council’s decision making and service planning and initiate change that meets the needs of older people in their ward. We believe they should: — Make time to listen to older people. — Make change happen to improve older people’s quality of life. — Make an ongoing commitment to keep people involved.
Role of Councillors as Leaders of Communities and Neighbourhoods
Meeting the needs and expectations of people in later life, within a climate of reduced public spending, presents a significant challenge for councils. Councillors should understand and act upon the views of older people in their community. However, an Age UK survey in 2011 found that only a third (35%) of respondents agreed that councillors are working to benefit older people. Councillors should do more to challenge the council’s decision making and service planning and initiate change that meets the needs of older people in their ward.
Better Council Services
Older people expect better council services. Councillors will be aware that care and support services have faced unprecedented challenges as a result of budget pressures and continued increases in demand. Age UK analysis shows that in 2011–12 there was a reduction in spending on older people’s social care of £341 million, or 4.5 percent since 2010–11. Taking into account growth in demand over the same period, this has led to a £500 million gap in funding.i
This has resulted in the reduction in the breadth of council care provision and increase in the charges that councils make for care services. DCLG and NHS Information Centre data show that, in real terms, charges were £360 more in 2010–11 than in 2008–09 for each older person using local authority care services.ii These quotes show the significant impact this will on the lives of older citizens: ‘I found that [during] weekends [my father] would not be dressed and got out of bed, as that was when they have staff shortages [in the care home].’ ‘It became apparent that you needed to be on death’s door before even being considered and we were even told that had Mum lived in a different borough, she would probably have received funding.’
Older people’s needs and views also need to be considered across the range of council decisions, whereas there may be a tendency for councillors and officials to consider their needs only in relation to services such as care. The majority of older people will not be receiving care services. They will however be using services across the range of council provision such as housing, leisure and adult education which keeps them active and independent.
Better Neighbourhoods
At a neighbourhood level all ward councillors have the opportunity to improve places for older people. For many older people, lack of good quality support and infrastructure within the neighbourhoods acts as a barrier that prevents them from being active locally. In a survey 52% of respondents agreed that the lack of public toilets in their area stopped them from going out as often as they would like.iii Similarly poor pavements, a lack of places to sit down and poor access to local services act to isolate older people.
Age friendly neighbourhoods are communities that offer a good quality of life to all generations. That means accessible and inclusive design; environments which are aesthetically pleasing, safe and easy to inhabit; good local services, facilities and open spaces; a strong social and civic fabric, with opportunities to take part and have a voice; and a real sense of local identity and place.
As ward representatives, councillors have both the electoral mandate and the local knowledge to bring about positive change. This role can go much wider than any formal responsibilities or portfolio they may have within the council to cement the strong link between the councillor and their older electors. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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What Can Councillors Do? Age UK believes councillors should: — Make time to listen to older people. — Make change happen to improve older people’s quality of life. — Make an ongoing commitment to keep people involved.
Time to listen Councillors should make sure older people have their voices heard. As the first level of elected representation, councillors have a responsibility to their electors and are in a position to hear the views of a wide range of older people in their ward. While some councillors will meet with older people through groups or surgeries, this is not happening consistently and often focuses on a minority of active older people. It is particularly concerning that people aged over 75 are less likely to feel they can influence decisions that affect them locally than any other age group.iv In addition, an Age UK survey found that more than half of people aged over 60 (54%) say they have never had any contact with their local councillors. Although this is a better response than for other age groups (75% of those aged between 16–24 and 69% of those aged between 25–59 have never had any contact) this is not a good record for local representatives. On the other hand, the same survey found that when older people do have contact with their councillors, they are generally satisfied with the outcome (65% satisfied) and they are significantly more satisfied than younger people (57% aged 16–59 are satisfied). There is an opportunity here to make sure older people’s views are taken into account. Councillors should consider and find ways to overcome the barriers to older people getting more involved. There is a variety of ways of meeting people who may not come to traditional meetings or surgeries, such as holding joint surgeries in GPs or a local Age UK or holding a ward walk (see case study 1) to make sure they hear the experience of a wide range of older people. Case Study 1 Councillors Jim Beall and Barbara Inman of Stockton Borough Council do regular ‘ward walkabouts’ to share local intelligence and to identify problems. As much as possible, they aim to solve problems on the spot—making a note of broken pavements and kerbs that need repairing, for example. The walkabouts involve officers from the council’s Care for your area, antisocial behaviour and enforcement services; the local neighbourhood police; the housing provider; and the residents’ association.
Initiate Change Local ward councillors are ideally placed to play a leadership and co-ordinating role for their communities and neighbourhoods. They have both the knowledge of the local area and will have contact with some of the main players involved (inside and outside the council), plus the electoral mandate for action. Take the example of older people’s concern about the lack of public transport to the local hospital. To improve the situation this could involve a private bus company, the county and or a district council, the hospital, the PCT cluster, or a community transport provider. The solution will depend on local circumstances and negotiating the best response for local people. Councillors should be able to work with residents to identify opportunities to influence decisions. They will also know potential resources that are available or be able to help find new local solutions (for example see case study 2). Case Study 2 A ward councillor in a rural village in the north of England, recognised that the physical environment can play a major role in encouraging activity and well-being and that making an environment more sympathetic to the needs of older people can prevent injury and social exclusion. The area has the highest proportion of older people in the council area. The councillor persuaded first the Town Council and latterly the unitary council to embark on a radical transformation of the village, which would benefit older people. He was responsible for raising the £3.8 million and leading the transformation programme. The councillor ensured the formation of a Disability Advisory Group for the project. The group had direct involvement in the design features and changes. There was also a public exhibition, which sought feedback in order to listen to older residents and resolve their concerns and needs. The transformation of the village centre has increased the footfall and includes features that are beneficial to older residents. For instance, in the street different levels and trip hazards have been removed; more seating has been provided; and road speed reductions have been achieved by design and engineering. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Ongoing commitment A councillor’s role in their community is not a one-off occurrence. There needs to be an ongoing commitment to keep people involved and support their needs. One frustration commonly voiced about engagement with councils is that things do not change or that people never hear what happened in response to their views. Through our Pride of Place campaign Age UK has been working with local councillors to improve neighbourhoods for people in later life. Over 200 councillors have committed to be advocates for older people from their ward and have committed to an ongoing dialogue with people in later life. Councillors that took part in Age UK’s Pride of Place project identified a range of actions that they would do differently that relate to listening to older people, communicating with other councillors, improving links with other organisations and practical activities—see comments below.v Pride of Place: Councillors’ Response to what they will do Differently as Advocates for Older People Give more attention to identifying hard to reach older people’s groups. Be more aware of needs of older residents (& need to think specifically about them) in terms of my council work and services council provides Communicate what I’ve learnt to other councillors. I plan to publicise the Pride of Place scheme within my local council and hopefully encourage fellow elected members to join the scheme. More local ward work and contacts with older people’s organisations. Go and learn/find out what is happening, what is needed and go out and work hard to make a difference. Will carry on and be more on the look out to do some things that I have learnt about today. Try to give more priority to involvement with issues for ageing people both as a resource and also in terms of improvement of the environment. May 2012
References i Care in Crisis 2012, Age UK, January 2012 ii Care in Crisis 2012, Age UK, January 2012 iii Public toilets study, Help the Aged, 2006 iv Agenda for Later Life 2012. Age UK, 2012 v Pride of Place Evaluation, Age UK, 2012
Written evidence from Professor Colin Copus, De Montfort University (CC05) Bullet Point Summary — The roles and tasks of the councillor are subject to a range of external pressures which shape expectations and responsibilities of the office. — Many changes and developments in the office of councillor have been imposed by central government as part of moves to shape local government for its own policy purposes. — The constitutional subservience of English local government to the British centre has undermined the governing capacity of councillors. — The community leadership role of the councillor within his or her ward/division needs to be clarified and supported with powers, budgets and by the council infra-structure if councillors are to be able to lead disparate communities. — Councillors need to be able to build alliances and coalitions focused on achieving desired goals, rather than relying on the certainties of party politics. — Councillors adherence to a Burkean notion of representation—that is that they are free from the electorate to be able to make their own decisions—will challenge moves towards developing localised decision-making that passes power to communities. — Localised decision-making must be a shared process between councillors and communities. — Party politics and the demands of group loyalty and cohesion pose challenges to localised decision-making. — Rigid party discipline and conflictual party politics undermines community representation. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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— Representation and representativeness are contested notions. Interpreting “representativeness” as meaning looking like (microcosmic representation) communities, can fundamentally undermine the traditional approach to representation as it implies that the representative’s focus is on the interests of a section of the community rather than on the wider whole, thus shifting from political to identity representation. — Councils often under-use their electoral mandate as leverage within governance networks. — Full and part time councillors require greater support from their councils for all facets of their work. — Councils need to recognise and support the political and governing role of the councillor and structure the council to support that role.
1. Introduction The paper responds to the issues raised by the committee by using literature and data from a number of related research projects exploring the developing role of the councillor, including a 2010 cross European study. The councillor occupies a central position in the dynamics of local politics. Yet, councillors are not in control of how the roles they carry out change over time. A series of European-wide pressures, such as those below, shape the tasks, functions, responsibilities and expectations of the office: 1. The changing nature and context of local government and democracy. 2. The organisation and activities of political parties in local government. 3. Increasing public participation in local decision-making, emerging from exhortations by central government, or from demands made by local communities. 4. The fractured and often conflicting nature of the role of the councillor. 5. Changing institutional arrangements for local government. 6. Changing views that politicians at other levels of government hold about councillors’ roles. Key to the development of the role of the councillor is the interest it attracts from central government. Reviews of local government have explored the attitudes and roles of the councillor (see for example, Maud, 1967, Widdicombe, 1986) but the questions posed and the answers given were a product of their time and based on the subservience of local government in the constitutional framework. The latter reflects a recurrent theme underpinning explorations of the role of the councillor, that this level of elected representative role, unlike those at other levels, is somehow under-developed and in need of constant re-shaping and re-appraisal. Moreover, that it is somehow disconnected from those represented and is a product of a lower level of governing capacity and ability. Some scholars (Greenwood 1981; Jones and Travers 1996) attribute this to a cultural disdain for local government on the part of central government and civil servants.
2. Councillors as Leaders of Communities and Neighbourhoods Councillors have been criticised for spending too much time in council meetings and insufficient time working with local communities (Audit Commission, 1990, detr, 1998). These views often arise from time allocation studies of councillor activity (Young and Rao, 1994, Widdicombe, 1986, ODPM, 2005). Such studies often underestimate the time councillors spend working within communities as they do not account for the proximity of the councillor to the community—particularly if the councillor lives within the ward represented. Nor do they adequately account for the fluidity and flexibility of the work of the councillor in ward and community leadership roles or how case-work and pastoral roles overlap with community leadership (Copus, 2004). The community leadership role of the councillor is often something that is recognised by its absence because of the lack of any clear, comprehensive and agreed definition, unlike the concept of political leadership. Moreover, community leadership emerges from the soft powers resting with councillors as elected representatives particularly where there is no executive decision-making ability or budgets available to individual councillors. Community leadership blurs with the wider “representative” role of the councillor, a role which itself has been distinguished as focusing on constituents (communities) and policy (see, Jones, 1975; Newton, 1976; Rao, 1994). Distinguishing community leadership from other facets of the councillor’s role (policy concerns and case work, for example), means we can start to build a picture of what is entailed in providing leadership to communities: — Community leadership is related to communities of place or interest; the former will be geographical sub-units of the authority area; the latter can cut across the authority area— communities of interest may also be geographically located: — Communities of place or interest must be identified by, or make themselves identifiable to, councillors (the ward or division is only one community of place and often an artificial one at that). cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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— Councillors need to develop a map of the communities that exist within their wards or divisions (support in doing this should come from the council). — Community leadership entails complexity and interdependence between elected and non-elected sectors, between national and local organisations (that impact on local communities) and between public, private, voluntary and community sectors. — Councils operate in conditions of network governance where they are among many bodies making decisions and forming public policy. Councillors similarly face competitors when it comes to decisions made that effect the communities they are expected to lead: — Councillors require the soft and hard powers (and enhanced status and recognition as politicians), within their wards or divisions, to be able to bring together disparate bodies— many of which will be geographically larger than the communities with which councillors work. — The electoral mandate provides councillors with moral and political leverage to bring together diverse interests to focus on community problems … — … But hard (executive) individual political powers are required to enable councillors to direct the engagement of non-elected bodies with issues arsing from communities (such hard powers should be distinct from the collective powers resting with a council or body of councillors). — As communities grow in assertiveness and are less willing to acquiesce with decisions made by public authorities, community leadership has become a co-operative process relying on councillors’ ability to: — Negotiate. — Compromise. — Build coalitions and alliances within and across communities. — Reconcile conflicting views across communities about local problems and solutions. — Use a wide range of avenues for political communication. — Make hard decisions about rationing and the use of scarce resources. — Place ideological concerns to one side when dealing with contentious local issues. Only so much can be achieved through soft political powers. Thus, the next section examines how localising decision making to divisions, wards and neighbourhoods relies on hard political powers resting with elected members.
3. Localising Decision-making to Divisions, Wards and Neighbourhoods There are two dimensions to localising decision-making. One is to see devolution as a process of transferring power or decision-making ability to local communities through ward committees or forum. The other is to transfer executive decision-making ability to councillors in their wards or divisions to enhance their community leadership capacity, both individually and collectively. Recent research has shown that councillors adhere strongly to the principles of representative democracy and to a Burkean interpretation of their role. But, there is also considerable support among councillors for people having opportunities to make their views known before important local decisions are made (Sweeting and Copus, 2012). Thus, the community leadership role of the councillor can be strengthened and informed by enhancing public engagement and participation in local decision-making. It is in the task of representing the ward or division that councillors often experience the most rewards from their office but also the most frustration. Those frustrations arise from the low level of recognition often given by councils to the role of the councillor as a ward/divisional representative. That ward link is often transferred into a council-wide governing perspective drawing the member away from a focus on the ward or division (Copus, 2007); it is not the number of meetings councillors attend that takes attention away from the ward; it is that those meetings expect councillors to focus on the whole council area. Based on the research from which this paper is drawn the following devolution of responsibility to councillors is suggested to localise decision making (some already exist in some councils): — Individual councillors to be able to place ward issues or any policy or decisions that might impact on the ward, on the agenda for cabinet, full council, or overview and scrutiny meetings. Responses to the items placed on the agendas to be sent to all ward councillors. — All reports and decisions that affect or effect specific wards/divisions to go to ward councillors for comment before being sent to the cabinet or council. — Ward councillors acting as a “representative team” (or individual county councillors) to have an executive general power of competence within their wards. — Devolved ward/divisional budgets to be created in each council: — Those budgets to be allocated equally between councillors within a ward for spending on projects selected by the councillor. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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— Ward councillors to be informed of and engaged in (supported by the council) any “community right” to challenge, bid or build under the Localism Act. — Every ward to constitute a ward committee. The committee would consist of the ward councillors and would meet on a regular basis. Membership to be open to each ward committee to decide, but might include: — Representatives of local community groups. — Local residents. — Third sector bodies active in the ward. — Locally based business. — Other public service bodies. The ward committee would have decision-making powers devolved to it from the council. — Councillors to rotate on an annual basis as ward mayor. The ward mayor would: — Chair the ward committee. — Oversee and co-ordinate the use of the general power of competence by the ward councillors. — Negotiate with the council on the allocation of devolved ward budgets. — Co-ordinate the decisions of individual councillors in identifying projects to be funded and consequent funding decisions made by the ward councillors. — The council leader/mayor and cabinet to report annually (at full council) on how decisions and policy have effected individual wards. In single member wards and county divisions the above role enhancements would need to be reconfigured to be concentrated in the single elected member. The above may seem a recipe for more meetings, but those events will take place in and be focussed solely on the ward or division represented by the councillor. In addition, they will involve others from the local community in a formalised and localised decision making process.
4. The Recruitment and Diversity of Councillors—and the Implications for Representation and Local Democracy There has long been a debate as to whether “representation” and “representativeness” should be understood as acting politically and in the interests of others, or whether it means resembling the others represented (see, Pitkin, 1972). Minorities in the context of liberal representative democracy have traditionally been political and not identity minorities. The contemporary debate has shifted towards representative democracy and representation being seen by some as sociological or microcosmic representation; that is, that representative bodies (in this case councils) should reflect as numerically as possible the ethnic (or other) make-up of the local community. Arguments for microcosmic representation appear to assume that only those who are from certain communities can undertake the task of representing them. Thus, the role of the councillor is not to represent the interests of the whole community, but the section of it from which the representative hails. That approach has serious implications for community cohesion as it displays a far more exclusive view of representation than has hitherto been the case. Indeed, a dangerous sectarianism could enter council chambers and party group meetings if diversity of recruitment is seen as an end in itself. Yet, the success of Respect in the 2012 Bradford council elections raises questions: whether the main parties will continue to lose support to those smaller parties that are perceived to represent the interests of minority communities; and, whether or not support for smaller parties, such as Respect, indicates a worrying sectarianism in local politics (see, Clarke, et al, 2008). Thus, councillor diversity is complex question which can only be answered suitably by a careful consideration what it is that the councillor as a representative is expected to represent. There are numerous studies of the recruitment of councillors, (see Brand, 1973, Barron, et al, 1989, Rao, 1998, Steyvers and Verhelst, 2012, Reynaert, 2012) which indicate that political parties are not only the key councillor recruitment agencies, but also create barriers to diversifying the councillor population. The academic literature highlights the way in which parties capitalise on: — Candidate motivations. — Resources available to parties and individuals. — Political opportunities. — Informal negotiations between potential recruits to overcome resistance, to encourage those drifting towards candidature and to indentify committed potential candidates. — Judgments made about the characteristics favoured by parties. — Judgements about the qualities of potential candidates. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Studies also show how the candidate recruitment process is shaped by: — The professionalisation of parties and local government. — The way in which potential candidates are filtered internally by political parties. — Path dependent traits within political parties. The Councillors Commission (Dclg, 2007) summed up the barriers to councillor as: — Lack of awareness about the role of the councillor. — Political culture. — The confidence of individuals to take on the role. — Concerns about time commitment. — Concerns about the reaction of employers and about effects on career prospects. Many councils have begun to actively encourage individuals to stand for local election, but doubts remain as to the success of these attempts while parties remain the key recruitment agency for candidates with the highest likelihood of victory at the polls. Parties are actively seeking to diversify the pool of candidates from which they select. Some local parties have advertised for candidates or recruited on the doorstep. Such activities normally receive criticism from political opponents, but they offer candidature to a wider pool than that possible by insisting all candidates are existing party members. Whatever actions parties take to widen the pool of candidates, one question remains: if an independent candidate from an under represented group stood for election, would the political parties stand a candidate against him or her? Encouraging diversity among the councillor population requires parties to examine internal selection processes to identify and rectify barriers—while at the same time avoiding patronising tokenism. Parties need to think more imaginatively about recruitment and selection and not to oppose suitable non-party candidates that may emerge, rather to offer endorsement and even support. The restrictions of group disciple and loyalty and confrontational party politics, to which many do not wish to subject themselves, may also act as barriers to councillor recruitment. Parties therefore need to consider not just recruitment, but their own conduct of local politics and council politics in particular. Research shows that the key focus of councillor loyalty is not the community (or ward or division) represented, rather the councillor’s political party. Indeed, councillors will place group decisions above the articulated views of their constituents (Copus, 1999, 2001, 2007, 2010). Given the dominance of party politics in local government and the strength of party group discipline and loyalty, it is unlikely that moves towards a greater diversity among the councillor population would lead to greater “representation” of minority interests. There is a further key issue of diversity of representation that the committee may wish to consider. As a result of the 2012 council elections around 93% of all councillors in England are from one of the three main national parties. By contrast, only around 1% of the population are members of political parties nationally (SN/ SG5125, 2009). The most under-represented group of people in local government and among councillors are those that are not members of the three main political parties.
5. The Practicalities of being a Councillor: Time Commitment, Time off Work, Casework and Remuneration The committee will no doubt receive evidence about the time commitment and time allocation for councillors’ duties and some of that literature has been referred to in section 2. In this section, therefore the two competing conceptualisations of the role of the councillor are briefly contrasted; the part-time lay representative and the full-time professional councillor. What is presented below are ideal types, and the reality of councillors’ experiences and ways of working will exist on a continuum between the ideals. The Lay part-time member: If a task of the councillor is to hold an administrative machine and a political administration to account, then he or she is not required to be an expert in the specific services and responsibilities of the council. The strength of the lay member comes from bringing outside life experience, backgrounds, abilities and expertise to bear and from the ability to question, challenge and critique proposals and council activities. Those qualities enable the lay councillor to examine the activities of the council and policy problems in a way that that experts and full-time politicians may over look. The lay councillor avoids becoming professionalised and thus avoids being distanced from those he or she represents. He or she will see their responsibility to the community as the cornerstone of council activity and will therefore place a focus on case-work and community engagement. The full-time professional councillor: councillors become professional, full-time members either by drift caused by weight of work and a gradual rise through the career structure, or from a choice based on a political commitment to party and/or council service. The full-time councillor is immersed in all aspects of council work and has developed day-to-day working relationships with council officers at a strategic and operational level. They are most likely, but not exclusively, to be members of the council executive or to hold senior council positions. The focus of the professional councillor is on strategic policy development, broad governing issues and ensuring alignment between the council and the political objectives of the majority party group. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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The full-time councillor is able to develop a strong appreciation and understanding of all aspects of the council’s responsibilities but as a consequence is often drawn into defending the council—if a member of the ruling group—rather than channelling the views of the public into the council machinery. He or she will undertake case-work and other ward duties and, being close to the council, is able to navigate the internal systems to good effect. He or she will be well-connected within their political party locally, regionally and possibly at a national level. Unlike the lay member the full-time professional councillor would not eschew the title “politician”. Opposition leaders can of course also be full-time professional councillors. These two ideal types bring to the fore considerations about remuneration and whether local government now requires full-time salaried councillors. The pressures and nature of council work and the expectations on elected members, alongside the demands of working at leadership and cabinet level, means that a system of allowances is no longer an appropriate way of remunerating certainly senior councillors. Indeed, the creation of council executives as a result of the Local Government Act 2000 makes it vital that at least cabinet members operate on a full-time salaried status. A similar status for overview and scrutiny chairs should also be considered. On the other hand there is still the need to ensure that councillors are not expected to become full-time. As we have seen the part-time lay member has much to contribute and is a counter-point to the distancing from the voters that full-time members can experience. A danger does lie in this argument however, that is that the ruling group by dint of having full-time salaried incumbents may be given an unfair electoral advantage if opposition leaders are carrying out their business on a part-time basis. Councils may then need to look closely at the nature of the support given to opposition councillors as a group to ensure accountability is practiced as effectively as possible. Part-time and full-time councillors will both experience the demands of case and ward work and such work only differs by the nature of the ward and not the part or full-time status of the councillor. The proximity of the councillor to those represented, means, unlike MPs, that they are constantly and easily approachable for constituents. Case work is not limited to surgery time alone. Rather, councillors are on 24-hour call.
6. Strategic Leadership and Governance The executive member may logically be seen as responsible for providing strategic direction and contributing to governance networks, but such responsibilities are not limited to executive members alone. Councillors outside the executive, through overview and scrutiny, are able to contribute to the strategic direction developed by the executive and to wider governance networks. The latter however, is generally an underdeveloped aspect of the scrutiny function. One of the implications of the separation of powers introduced by the Local Government Act 2000 is that councils should be able to speak with more than one voice and while executives and scrutiny are not in competition, they will make different contributions to leadership and governance. Yet, governance fundamentally alters local democracy and the role of the councillor and such a shift requires councillors to: — Focus externally on developing governing capacity to shape/direct/influence the activities of non-elected bodies. — Use the leverage provided by a democratic mandate to construct a shared vision for the development of the locality and communities within it. — Integrate and mediate between competing interests and views of how the locality should develop. — Operate within networks that extend beyond the boundaries of a single council. — Recognise the need to move away from traditional party-based representative forms of local government to be congruent with network governance, market and participatory competitors to the representative system. While councillors, as party members, continue to be geared towards fighting and winning elections and focusing internally towards the working of the council, they are likely to continue to act in a way that benefits that role. In that case councillors are also likely to become more and more marginalised in the governance of local communities.
7. Skills, Training and Support for Councillors While some councils make good provision for training and for support to councillors the general pattern is a scattered one. By and large, councils focus far more on their public service responsibilities than they do on their role as a representative institution. Indeed, councils are synonymous with service provision, rather than being seen as a governing entity within the locality. Thus, councils are often not set up as much as they should be to support the political, governing and representative role councils and councillors undertake. Councils need to review the support provided to councillors in the following areas: — Policy. — Research. — Administrative/secretarial. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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— Ward/division duties. — IT facilities. Support to councillors needs to be seen in the same way as support to managers and as a key function of the council. It is a dangerous false economy not to provide high-level and high-quality support and training to all members equally and in all facets of their work. Training must not be used to managerialise the role of the councillor, rather as a way of developing political, critical and governing skills.
8. Conclusions Councillors inhabit a level of government which experiences forces for change often beyond their control and frequently generated by other levels of government seeking to reform local government. Centrally inspired reforms may come and go, but councillors are the foundation for representative local democracy and have a key role to play in wider governance networks. All councillors contribute to community leadership, either through the position they hold in the council’s leadership, or by virtue of being an elected representative for a ward or division. It is simply the scope of that leadership and engagement with governance networks that varies. Much investigation into the work of the councillor is conducted with a view that it can be improved and that somehow it is lacking, rather than from a desire to explore what is required to enhance the governing capacity of local government and councillors. Councillors as governors, representatives and decision-makers need the political and institutional powers to be able to govern their localities. That in turn requires a devolution of power from central to local government that views councils as political entities and not only as bodies responsible for public service provision. May 2012
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ODPM, 2005, Councillors and the New Council Constitutions Pitkin, H, The Concept of Representation, University of California Press, 1972 Rao, N, The Making and Unmaking of Local Self-Government, Aldershot, Dartmouth, 1994.Rao, N., (1998) The Recruitment of Representatives in British Local Government: pathways and barriers, Policy and Politics, 26:3, 291–305 Reynaert, H (2012), The Social Base of Political Recruitment. A Comparative Study of Local Councillors in Europe, Lex Localis, 10:1, 19–36 Standard Note (2009), SN/SG/5125 Membership of UK political parties, House of Commons Library, Steyvers, K, and T Verhelst (2012), Between Layman and Professional? Political Recruitment and Career Development of Local Councillors in a Comparative Perspective, Lex Localis, 10;1, 1–17 Sweeting, D, and C Copus (2012). Whatever happened to local democracy? Policy and Politics, 40:1, 21–38. Young, K and N Rao (1994), Coming to Terms with Change: The Local Government Councillor in 1993, York, Joseph Rowntree Foundation.
Further written evidence from Professor Colin Copus and Dr Melvin Wingfield, De Montfort University (CC 05a) 1. Introduction The report has been prepared as additional evidence for the Communities and Local Government Committee inquiry into councillors and the community. It is based on responses to a questionnaire survey distributed, to councillors in 16 countries across Europe. The questionnaire was completed at different times in each country throughout 2008. The data contained in this report is based on the responses of councillors from England, Scotland and Wales. The questionnaire was mailed to all councillors in 119 authorities via member services or equivalent. The distribution of authorities was as follows: 63 English districts, 13 English unitary councils, 10 English metropolitan boroughs, nine English county councils, nine London boroughs, nine Scottish unitary councils and six Welsh unitary councils (104 English authorities in all). The distribution was proportionate to the number of councillors in those types of authorities; proportionality between the main political parties at the time was ensured. In all, 6,082 questionnaires were distributed. In total, exactly 700 questionnaires were returned—a disappointing response rate of about 11.5%; 588 were returned from England, 22 from Scotland, and 15 from Wales. Some 75 questionnaires, though otherwise completed satisfactorily, had obliterated the tracking number that identified the authority to which the questionnaire had been sent. Other datasets can make better claims to being fully balanced and statistically generalisable samples from which inferences can be drawn about the whole population of councillors. The dataset however, does share broadly with larger sample surveys, particular key characteristics such as average age of councillors, gender distribution, and average length of time served. Given the composition of the councillor population and the responses to the survey, the findings can be reported with confidence that they represent broad patterns existing in the wider councillor population. A note of caution must be added however, when reporting data from low response rate surveys; only new surveys and a larger response rate could confirm or refute the patterns that emerged from this survey. The questionnaire contained some 49 questions, with a total of 307 sub-questions in total. What is reported here are the responses to those questions which are relevant to the discussion at the committee’s evidence session held on 2 July 2012.
2. General Characteristics of the Councillor Population: An International Perspective The data available from the research referred to in the introduction enables us to make a few observations about the overall councillor population (the research sample) to add to what is already know from sources such as the Local Government Association’s survey of councillors. Set out below is the position of UK councillor respondents to the survey in a series of international league tables displayed by the following categories: age, retired from employment, length of service, gender and education. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 1 AGE Country Mean Median Spain 45.16 45.00 Switzerland 47.77 48.00 Italy 48.29 49.00
Young Greece 48.60 50.00 Austria 49.87 50.00 Israel 53.31 55.00 Fra nce 53.80 55.00 Germany 54.12 56.00 Old Sweden 54.21 57.00 United Kingdom 58.57 60.00
Table one shows that when using both mean and median averages the UK has the oldest councillors from those countries included in the survey. An exploration of the roles, expectations, remuneration, status of councillors, powers and responsibilities of local government and a range of other factors, in countries with far lower mean and median average ages would uncover, in some detail, the strategies required to encourage younger people to stand for office of councillor. Such research could be conducted from existing material, although primary research will no doubt add to that knowledge. The age composition of the councillor population is even more evident in table two when looking at the percentage of councillors who are retired. The UK is in a league of its own with 1,237% more councillors who are retired than Spain, the country with the smallest percentage of retired councillors. The Office for National Statistics noted that in 2010, 17% of the population was 65 or over. Retired of course, does not mean you are necessarily in that age group, but it is a useful proxy indicator and the international comparison is shown in table two.
Table 2 PERCENTAGE OF RETIRED COUNCILLORS % Retired United Kingdom 43.3 France 30.2 Poland 20.0 Most The Netherlands 19.1 Germany 18.9 Greece 11.7 Austria 11.7 Switzerland 10.6
Fewest Czech Republic 10.5 Spain 3.5
The age distribution of the councillor population takes on a slightly different perspective when we consider the length of service of our councillor respondents from across Europe. Table three displays the length of service by the country of the respondents. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 3 LENGTH OF SERVICE Mean Median Germany 11.690 9.000 Sweden 10.190 8.000 Austria 9.990 8.000 United Kingdom 9.880 8.000 Belgium 9.765 8.000 Czech Republic 7.822 6.000 Norway 7.599 5.000 Greece 7.428 6.000 Italy 6.626 4.000 France 6.622 1.000 Switzerland 6.609 5.000 Israel 6.604 5.000 Spain 6.584 6.000 The Netherlands 6.197 5.000 Poland 5.722 5.000 Croatia 5.113 4.000
Whether mean or median is used the UK has some of the longest serving members. The interesting data point is France. Using the mean they are in the middle, but the median figure indicates a number of French councillors standing down after a year. If the UK has some of the longest serving members then given the age composition of our respondents, councillors were either elected at a younger age and the current age profile could be a product of length of service; or, councillors were elected at ages above that of the average population and length of service has distinguished the age difference between councillors and the overall population still further. The answer is probably a combination of both. As table four illustrates that the UK is neither at the top or the bottom of the distribution when it comes to the balance between male and female councillors. Comparison with the extremes of the distribution however, could be interpreted as either a more progressive approach in the UK than other countries, or conversely a must do better, conclusion—depending on whether one looks up or down the table.
Table 4 GENDER Male Female
France 54.6 45.4 Sweden 57.1 42.9 Norway 61.5 38.5 Most Spain 66.7 33.3 Switzerland 68.8 31.2 Germany 78.3 21.7 Poland 80.9 19.1 Greece 83.3 16.7 Percentage Female
Fewest Italy 86.2 13.8 Israel 87.0 13.0
United Kingdom 73.6 26.4
A similar conclusion can be drawn between the question of gender and age. It could be assumed that gender (and age) distribution are not only related to personal factors or to gender and age itself, but also to a range of institutional and organisational factors concerning the powers, roles, responsibilities, status and functions of local government and councillors, across Europe. Research into these institutional and organisational factors would assist in providing policy solutions to the age, gender and no doubt ethnicity composition of the councillor populations and provide valuable data on how to develop policy to ensure that the councillor population resembles that of the wider population. The committee may want to consider commissioning such research. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Next the educational background of councillors from our survey nations is set out in table five and the data here can be interpreted in one of two ways.
Table 5 EDUCATION University / college or equivalent.
Israel 84.4 Spain 77.0 United Kingdom 72.2 Most France 71.8 Czech Republic 69.0 Croatia 58.3 Germany 54.0 Percentage Italy 48.9
Fewest Sweden 47.1 Austria 30.5
When it comes to an international comparison the UK has an educated councillor base which is what is required when it comes to tackling the complex array of decisions with which councillors are faced and in producing solutions to complex local problems. An alternative interpretation exists however, in that the table emphasises what we saw with age and gender, that the councillor population does not resemble the overall population insofar as they don’t “look like us”, that is, the social structure they represent. We now move on to consider responses to the broader questions asked in the international survey.
3. Political Influence The research sought to uncover where political influence rested in local government and to understand the views councillors held about influential groups or individuals when it came to council business. Councillors were asked to reply to the question below and table six shows the percentage responses to the influence of the individuals or groups they were asked to consider. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 6 INFLUENCE On the basis of your experience as a local councillor in this City, and independently of the formal procedures, please indicate how influential each of the following actors are over the Local Authority activities. No influence little influence some influence high influence very high influence The leader .1 1.0 12.3 34.9 51.6
The Chair of the Council 14.4 39.2 30.9 10.9 4.7
The Chairs of Council Committees 1.1 10.2 50.8 32.1 5.8 The Executive .2 3.2 10.3 42.7 43.8 Individual councillors 5.6 34.2 50.0 7.5 2.7 Myself 8.1 25.6 46.1 13.7 6.5 The Heads of Department in the local authority .3 1.7 20.8 58.5 18.8 The Chief Executive .0 2.1 8.5 37.7 51.7 Professional Consultants/Experts 2.1 12.8 48.1 29.2 7.8 Local MPs 16.9 40.4 33.7 6.4 2.6 Local trade unions 25.8 42.8 27.7 3.5 .2 Journalists 23.0 39.3 31.7 5.0 .9 Local business people 11.6 38.2 43.9 5.9 .5 National and international firms 24.1 44.4 26.5 4.3 .6 Faith groups 32.5 44.7 20.4 1.7 .6 Local voluntary associations 12.3 43.8 39.1 4.3 .6 Local single issue groups 13.1 45.3 38.1 3.0 .5 Neighbourhood committees, forums or partnerships 7.9 28.2 51.1 11.5 1.4 Party leaders 4.6 18.1 48.0 24.9 4.4 Party groups of councillors in the council 2.7 13.7 45.9 29.6 8.1 Local political parties including non - councillors 14.0 40.3 35.8 7.6 2.3 Regional and upper levels of government 5.0 12.5 32.0 32.3 18.3
What we can see from table six is a clear distinction made by councillors, between the degree of influence over council business that is had by actors internal to the council and those that are external to it. When looking at the highlighted figures, taking the central column as a mid-point, we can see a clear direction of travel in the responses and some interesting patterns emerged. Chairs of committees (overview and scrutiny, etc), the council leader and executive members are clearly seen as “influential” by councillors. The non-executive councillor and individual councillors are seen as having less influence than executive members. The role of individual members is interesting and while they are perceived to have marginal influence respondents think they have slightly more influence as an individual as opposed to all councillors. Moreover, the influence of appointed officers is clearly recognised by councillors and responses here about the influence of the chief executive and other directors, parallel responses about the council leader and executive members. A telling point is that as soon as we move outside the council the direction of travel of responses is reversed: there is a noticeable trailing off in influence for those outside the council. That is not the case, however, for “neighbourhood committees, forums or partnerships” but these can be seen as still being part of the council. The responses question the embededness of councillors within the communities they represent. By assessing a range of external actors as less influential than internal actors, councillors display the strength of their connection with the council rather than the wider social world. It also means that councillors have not used their own offices to redress this balance. Councillors are not yet a gateway for the wider world into council affairs and decision-making. Moreover, such responses raise questions about councillors and therefore councils’ contribution to and engagement with, governance networks beyond the council. In producing an international comparison for the influence councillors grant to the leader of the council and the chief executive an interesting pattern emerges. Table seven displays councillors’ perceptions of the influence cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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of the council leader and for ease of presentation the table (and the other tables showing international comparisons in this report) shows only the top and bottom five groupings from the data set.
Table 7 COUNCIL LEADER INFLUENCE BY COUNTRY High and Very Very High No Little Some High High Combined Israel .0 .0 1.4 9.0 89.7 98.6 France .1 .3 1.3 11.8 85.3 97.1 Greece .4 1.7 1.7 14.0 82.1 96.2
Top FiveTop Italy .3 .9 2.9 19.6 76.4 96.0 Spain .4 1.4 2.5 20.1 75.6 95.7 .1 1.0 12.3 34.9 51.6 United Kingdom 86.5 Switzerland .5 2.4 11.3 42.1 43.7 85.8 Czech Republic .2 2.8 12.3 39.8 45.0 84.8 Norway .3 3.2 15.6 47.7 33.2 80.9 Bottom Five The Netherlands .3 6.5 31.8 49.4 12.0 61.3
When taking the combined “high” and “very high” categories we highlight those responses where the role of the leader was seen as instrumental in the political process. In this case responses from U.K councillors appear in the bottom part of the table, while at the same time indicating that councillors accord the leader substantial influence. If however, the response for “some” influence are included then the UK would jump from the bottom five to the fourth highest in terms of perceptions of leader influence. When looking at the reason for the league tables we can take structural aspects as an explanation. Without going into too much detail about systems of local government overseas the influence accorded to political leaders in the top five in our table derives from formal, legal powers resting with the political leader and with local government as an institution and of course from the informal influence leaders can wield, which is again often related to their formal position. Moreover, systems within the same country will differ depending on population sizes of a council area. So looking at the top five most influential leaders we see Israel, Greece and Italy—with directly elected mayors; and, Spain and France where the mayor heads a party list (in Spain the mayor is also head of the local party) and where the law formally places executive power in the hands of the mayor. It appears that despite executive political decision-making in England, council leaders are not seen by councillors to be as quite as influential as some of their overseas counterparts judge the elected heads of their councils. Turning to the influence of the chief executive in local government a different pattern emerges as shown in table eight. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 8 CHIEF EXECUTIVE INFLUENCE BY COUNTRY High and very No Little Some High Very High High Combined
Norway 0.2 0.9 8.3 52.3 38.3 90.7 United Kingdom 0 2.1 8.5 37.7 51.7 89.5 Sweden 0.5 4 18.2 48.7 28.6 77.3
High est Italy 2 6.6 22.5 44.6 24.3 68.9 Belgium 2.1 5.6 25.4 43.6 23.3 66.9 Czech Republic 1.5 10 39.1 38.1 11.4 49.5 Influence Austria 1.6 13.3 39.3 39.3 6.5 45.8 Switzerland 5.1 19.5 33.5 33.9 7.9 41.9
Lowest Poland 8 15.8 36.3 33.8 6.1 39.9 Greece 15.9 17 27.5 33.5 6.1 39.6
Taking the same approach of combining the “high” and “very high” influence responses we see that councillors in the UK are second in the international table of perceptions of chief executive influence. The results reflect an often repeated comment from councillors that the authors of this report have experienced from qualitative research, where councillors claim that either “officers” or “the chief executive” “run this council”. Although Italy also appears in the top five, as it did in table seven of leader influence, the combined score places it well below that of the UK. Norway was in the bottom five of leader influence and so, unsurprisingly makes an appearance at the top of table eight. What we are seeing in some case then, such as Norway, is a contrary set of responses—if the council leader lacks influence, then the chief executive must have influence. The result from the UK is more complex, given the overall scores for leader and chief executive influence. Despite a shift to an executive system of council leaders and cabinets the appointed chief executive is still perceived by councillors to be of sufficient influence to appear in the top five of the international table, while the leader sits in the bottom five. The results indicate a structural location of power and influence with an appointed rather than elected head—at least in the view of councillors—and indicates the pervasive influence of managerialism within local government.
4. Candidature The research explored how councillors were first nominated to stand as a candidate so as to understand the nomination process and where responsibility rested for indentifying potential candidates: the party or the individual. Table 9 and chart one present the responses to a simple question:
Table 9 HOW DID YOU BECOME A CANDIDATE THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE NOMINATED? How did you become a candidate the first time you were nominated? %
I proposed myself (or I requested party colleagues to nominate me for selection) 18.8 I was asked by others (including being nominated by party colleagues) 81.3 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Chart one bellow presents the responses diagrammatically.
Chart 1 CANDIDATURE
I proposed myself (or I requested party colleagues to nominate me for selection) 19%
I was asked by others (including being nominated by party colleagues) 81%
In the overwhelming number of cases being a nominee of others, as opposed to being a self-nominator, is the route into candidature. Yet, exploring the data shows that self-nominators are not the same as Independents. Independent respondents were also “nominated” in that it was suggested to them by others in the community or an organisation that they should stand for the council. Party members were present among self-nominators and had either nominated themselves where the opportunities arose, or had sought out a nominator to ensure they were able to enter the selection process. Labour Party selection processes allow party members to self- nominate and effectively all nominees could be “self-nominators”, so it is interesting that the figures for self- nomination are not higher. Councillors distinguish between an organisational process and where they have been asked to stand by colleagues. There is an interesting difference in age between self-nominators and nominees. Self-nominators are on average younger by six years than their counter-parts who secured (or requested) a nomination from other sources (mean for SN = 54; mean for other 60). While a six year difference does not appear great it was a statistically significant difference and indicated two very different types of approaches to candidature. Self- nominators were among the younger cohorts of councillors and as such the results indicate the continued emergence of a more confident and self-assured councillor population. While the number of younger councillors is relatively small, we can say that they have a propensity to behave differently to their older colleagues. Table 10 illustrates this clearly. Respondents have been grouped into age categories starting with the youngest and working through to the oldest group which was 70 and over. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 10 AGE CATEGORIES * HOW DID YOU BECOME A CANDIDATE THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE NOMINATED?
How did you become a candidate the first time you were nominated? I proposed I was asked by Age categories myself others Total 19-29 Count 3 5 8 % within Age categories 37.5% 62.5% 100.0% 30-39 Count 13 25 38 % within Age categories 34.2% 65.8% 100.0% 40-49 Count 23 55 78 % within Age categories 29.5% 70.5% 100.0% 50-59 Count 32 144 176 % within Age categories 18.2% 81.8% 100.0% 60-69 Count 42 204 246 % within Age categories 17.1% 82.9% 100.0% 70 and Count 6 93 99 above % within Age categories 6.1% 93.9% 100.0% Total Count 119 526 645 % within Age categories 18.4% 81.6% 100.0%
There is an abundance of research showing that on average councillors are older than the population they serve. In the National Census of Local Authority Councillors 2010 conducted by the LGA, the average age of councillors had shown an increase on the previous census from 55 to 60, while the average age of the population as a whole was 40. The findings in our survey are consistent with the LGA’s finding, what is of interest is how younger councillors behave in defined circumstances compared to the average. By grouping ages in Table 10 we can see a pattern of behaviour emerges whereby those in the younger age groups have a greater propensity to nominate themselves. In the youngest age group, 19–29, 37% of respondents were self-nominators, but this reduces age group by age group until in the oldest age group only 6% nominated themselves. The implication is that future generations of prospective councillors will be more likely self nominate compared to the current councillor population. As the population of councillors ages the tail of self nominators will grow; the data shows older councillors will continue to rely on the nomination process until they cease being councillors. The influence of the party and official party structures on selection could dissipate over time as younger councillors self nominate. If we look at the data internationally, in table 11 we see that the UK sits just above the mid-way point in the table of nominations. The explanation for the ranking can be found, again, in structural differences between the various local government, political and electoral systems, as well as in the political culture of each country. Such factors help councillors determine the political strategies they will employ when seeking nomination. It is also clear that across our survey population in Europe, nomination or suggestion that an individual should stand, by party colleagues or other contacts, is the main route to candidature. Although, as we have seen above, this route may be changing. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 11 COUNCILLOR NOMINATIONS
I proposed myself I was asked by others Israel 38.0 62.0 Poland 34.7 65.3 Greece 31.6 68.4 France 26.3 73.7 The Netherlands 26.3 73.7 Belgium 26.0 74.0 United Kingdom 18.8 81.3 Switzerland 17.1 82.9 Italy 15.0 85.0 Germany 8.4 91.6 Czech Republic 5.0 95.0 Austria 4.7 95.3 Norway 4.5 95.5 Sweden 3.8 96.2 Croatia 3.1 96.9 Spain 3.1 96.9
5. Task Orientation The survey asked respondents how important they thought were the various tasks that the councillor was required to undertake. The tasks presented to respondents were designed to provide an indication of the different roles undertaken by councillors and designed to ask councillors to comment on the importance of broad aspects of council business and political representation. Table 12 sets out the responses received.
Table 12 TASK ORIENTATION
In your experience as a councillor, how important are the following tasks for you as a councillor None Little Moderate Great great Very Defining the main goals of the local authority .6 5.3 19.0 33.1 41.9 Controlling what the local authority does 1.0 3.6 22.0 36.8 36.6 Representing requests and issues emerging locally .1 .4 6.6 35.2 57.6 Publicising debate on local issues before decisions are taken .7 4.3 23.0 41.4 30.6 Explaining decisions of the council to citizens .3 1.8 18.7 39.4 39.8 Implementing the programme of my political party/ movement 4.9 11.0 36.4 30.2 17.5 Supporting the executive 9.3 12.7 30.4 27.6 19.9 Mediating local conflicts 1.6 5.5 32.5 39.3 21.0 Promoting the views and interests of local minorities 1.8 9.9 32.9 34.2 21.2 Promoting the views and interests of women 6.3 15.3 38.0 24.9 15.6 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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The responses show that councillors have distinct perceptions about the different roles that they undertake and while the importance of these roles may vary somewhat, each are seen as a key task for the councillor. The direction of travel in the responses is, in every case, from moderate importance to very great importance. It is clear that councillors place importance on their role in “explaining decisions of the council to citizens”, so the idea that councillors are a conduit for the council to the citizen, rather than the citizen to the council has some credence. Much of the reason for this response comes from the relationship councillors have with their party—particularly if it is the ruling group on the council and this can be seen when looking at the other important role councillors conduct: Implementing the programme of their political party. Yet, when it comes to “Representing requests and issues emerging locally” we see an equally un-ambivalent and somewhat contradictory response. The contradiction here is explainable in that representation is not confined to formal council settings or meetings, but takes place in a wide range of settings: the party group; private meetings with citizens, officers or other members; community events; and, interactions with government departments, public sector bodies and other partner organisation. Thus, councillors distinguish between what they do in formal settings, such as council meetings, where party loyalties and party discipline come into play and in more informal settings and interactions (where political opponents are not present) where party becomes less of a consideration. Worthy of some note are the responses to the statements asking about the importance to councillors of “Promoting the views and interests of local minorities” and “Promoting the views and interests of women”. The responses to these questions are set out in tables 13, 14 and 15.
Table 13 REPRESENTING MINORITIES BY GENDER In your experience as a councillor, how important are the following tasks for you as a 38. Are you male or female? councillor:- Promoting the views and interests of minorities in the local society Male Female Total None Count 11 1 12 % within Are you male or female? 2.2% .6% 1.8% Little Count 55 10 65 % within Are you male or female? 11.2% 5.8% 9.8% Moderate Count 177 42 219 % within Are you male or female? 36.0% 24.6% 33.1% Great Count 158 70 228 % within Are you male or female? 32.2% 40.9% 34.4% Very great Count 90 48 138 % within Are you male or female? 18.3% 28.1% 20.8% Total Count 491 171 662 % within Are you male or female? 100.0% 100.0% 100.0%
Women councillors place greater emphasis than their male counterparts on the importance of representing minority ethnic groups. While just over half of male councillors see the role as of great or very great importance, 69% of female councillors fall into those two groups. Interestingly, however, table 14 shows that while there is a difference in the perceptions of the emphasis women place on representing women the differences are not as great when compared to their male counter-parts as with the question above. The single largest group for both male and female councillors was a moderate response to the proposition in table 14 below. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 14 REPRESENTATION OF WOMEN BY GENDER
In your experience as a councillor, how important are the following tasks for you as a 38. Are you male or female? councillor: - Promoting the views and interests of women in the local society Male Female Total
None Count 36 5 41 % within Are you male or female? 7.4% 3.0% 6.3% Little Count 76 24 100
% within Are you male or female? 15.6% 14.2% 15.3%
Moderate Count 192 59 251
% within Are you male or female? 39.5% 34.9% 3% Great Count 115 47 162 % within Are you male or female? 23.7% 27.8% 24.7% Very great Count 67 34 101
% within Are you male or female? 13.8% 20.1% 15.4% Total Count 486 169 655
% within Are you male or female? 100.0% 100.0% 100.0%
Table 15 below, shows that of those councillors with a high degree of belonging to a minority ethnic group, 71%, thought that the representation of minority groups was of great or very great importance. That result compares with just over half of councillors who thought the issue of great or very great importance but who had no sense of belonging to minority ethnic groups. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 15 ETHNICITY AND RESPONSIVENESS
To what extent do you feel that you belong to the An ethnic minority group following groups in society? -
In your experience as a councillor, how important are Neither the following tasks for you as a councillor: - Promoting To a high To To a the views and interests of minorities in the local society Not at low nor low some high all degree degree degree degree Total None Count 7 2 0 1 0 10 % within An ethnic minority 1.7% 6.3% .0% 4.0% .0% 1.9% group Little Count 47 2 0 3 4 56 % within An ethnic minority 11.7% 6.3% .0% 12.0% 14.3% 10.9% group Moderat Count 141 12 7 9 4 173 e % within An ethnic minority 35.0% 37.5% 28.0% 36.0% 14.3% 33.7% group Great Count 129 9 14 10 13 175 % within An ethnic minority 32.0% 28.1% 56.0% 40.0% 46.4% 34.1% group Very Count 79 7 4 2 7 99 great % within An ethnic minority 19.6% 21.9% 16.0% 8.0% 25.0% 19.3% group Total Count 403 32 25 25 28 513 % An ethnic minority group 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0%
6. Information Available to Councillors To be able to act effectively across their various roles, councillors require adequate information on which to assess and discuss the issues before them, make judgments and take and justify decisions. As part of understanding how effectively councillors can act the survey asked them about the amount of information available to them. Table 16 and chart two sets out the responses.
Table 16 SATISFACTION WITH INFORMATION AVAILABLE Do you get a satisfactory amount of information from the local authority to perform your job as a councillor?
% Completely unsatisfactory 3.1 Mostly unsatisfactory 5.7 Neither satisfactory nor unsatisfactory 14.8 Mainly satisfactory 58.2 Completely satisfactory 18.2 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Chart 2 SATISFACTION 70.0
60.0
50.0
40.0
30.0
20.0
10.0
0.0 Completely Mostly Neither satisfactory Mainly satisfactory completely unsatisfactory Unsatifactory nor unsatisfactory satisfactory
Again, as with all responses so far, there is a clear direction of travel towards one end of the scale, giving us a clear outcome: members are by and large satisfied with the information they receive to perform their roles. A note of caution must be made here however, as making a judgment on the adequacy of information supplied requires the recipient to be aware of alternative sources of information and to have some criteria on which to judge the information they receive against those other sources. It is also difficult in a questionnaire survey for an individual to admit the information they have to carry out their role is inadequate as by implication that questions the adequacy of their own activities. These responses somewhat contradict the results of qualitative research conducted by the authors in various projects. Councillors often question not only the adequacy and quality of information received but also the quantity: not enough and they are being deliberately misled; too much and they are being deliberately swamped in detail to disguise some key or important issues. Yet, on the face of it, the results of the survey do indicate satisfaction among councillors with the information they receive. Table 17 presents the data comparatively from our international survey respondents. The table uses a scale from 1, which is “Completely Dissatisfied” with the information flow, through to 5, which is “Completely Satisfied” with the information flow. The higher the mean score the more satisfied councillors are with the flow of information. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 17 FLOW OF INFORMATION Mean
Croatia 4.07 Czech Republic 4.05 Poland 3.93 Norway 3.93 Sweden 3.92 Germany 3.88
Switzerland 3.87 United Kingdom 3.83 Austria 3.80 Italy 3.72 Belgium 3.68 The Netherlands 3.67 France 3.67 Spain 3.60
Do you get a satisfying amount of information from the Greece 3.45
municipal administration to perform your job as a councillor? Israel 2.92
The table underpins the discussion so far with a mean score which places councillors in this country at the mid-point in the table when it comes to satisfaction with the information available to them. It is informative that three relatively new democracies top the table when it comes to information satisfaction, probably indicating a response to moving from a system where information was heavily restricted and manipulated to a more open and transparent system by comparison. Accounting for this factor sees the responses from the UK move up the table somewhat.
7. Councillors’ Allowances Given the regular publicity about the level of councillor allowances, the research sought to uncover whether or not councillors felt the allowance regime was adequate to support them in their role. Table 18, 18.1 and 18.2 and chart three displays the responses received. Tables 18.1 and 18.2 have been produced by recoding the variable in the questionnaire: Considering your responsibilities, do you think the allowance you receive as a councillor is adequate or not? In doing so the middle option was removed and the remaining six categories were re-coded into two: Inadequate (responses 1–3) and adequate (responses 5–7) Table 18.1 shows the mean age of the two groups and Table 18.2 shows that the difference is statistically significant. Again, the implication of this finding is that overtime as prospective councillors come forward the issue of remuneration will be assume a greater significance for a generation not steeped in the notion of a public service ethos. While the age difference between the two groups may appear slight, three years, it does not detract from the fact that on average councillors who perceive the level of remuneration as inadequate are younger than those councillors who are satisfied wit the level of allowances. As the older age group cease to be involved as councillors this difference can only grow and produce a policy dilemma that future generations of policy-makers will have to resolve. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 18 ALLOWANCES Considering your responsibilities, do you think the allowance you receive as a councillor is adequate or not?
% Not Adequate 15.4 2 13.4 3 14.6 4 14.0 5 13.1 6 9.1 Adequate 20.4
Chart 3 ALLOWANCES
Adequate
Not Adequate
0.0 5.0 10.0 15.0 20.0 25.0
Table 18.1 GROUP STATISTICS
13. Considering the
corresponding responsibilities, do you think your allowance as a
councillor is adequate or United Kingdom not? N Mean Std. Deviation Std. Error Mean
United Kingdom 37. How old are you? Inadequate 284 56.92 11.431 .678
(years) Adequate 277 59.64 11.382 .684 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 18.2 INDEPENDENT SAMPLES TEST
Levene's Test for Equality of Variances t-test for Equality of Means 95% Confidence Mean Interval of the Sig. (2- Differe Std. Error Difference United Kingdom F Sig. t df tailed) nce Difference Lower Upper United 37. How old Equal .032 .859 -2.831 559 .005 -2.727 .963 -4.619 -.835 Kingdom are you? variances (years) assumed Equal -2.831 558.76 .005 -2.727 .963 -4.619 -.835 variances 1 not assumed
(The tables are explained below in footnote1) What the tables and chart 3 shows is a spread of views about the adequacy of the allowances councillors receive, that spread was created by the variables available to the respondents. But, when age is taken into account a very clear and stark pattern emerges from the responses. Younger councillors, on average, find the allowances inadequate while older councillors, on average, find them to be adequate. What we are seeing here is a distinction between those at the beginning or middle or their working life for whom councillor allowances do not compare favourable to salaries available and those that may have finished employment, for whom allowances are not compared to other potential earnings. We may also be seeing a difference in the approach taken to council work by younger and older councillors with the former always relating their activities and resource investment to paid occupation. We get a slightly different view when looking at the international comparisons, which are set out in table 19. In producing this table a scale from 1 “dissatisfied” to 7 “satisfied” has been employed. The higher the mean the more satisfied, on average, councillors are with the remuneration regime.
1 Tables 18.1 and 18.2 are the results of a statistical testing of the mean difference between the two groups. In this case whether age was a factor in councillors’ perception of reward. The mean difference which is—2.727—is the number of years between those that think rewards are inadequate and adequate. The heading Sig, in this case is .859 (given that it is greater than .05 we ignore the bottom line of data and focus on the top line). We then turn to the column headed Sig (2 tailed) and the figure is 0.005 which is less than 0.05. This, tells us that the difference in years, although appearing slight, is statistically significant. This is further reinforced by the end column where the range does not pass through zero which adds reliability to the finding in the previous column. What we can say, is that based on a statistic of t= -2.831, p<0.05, on average, younger councillors view rewards as inadequate. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 19
ALLOWANCES Mean Poland 5.30 Czech Republic 4.85 Austria 4.57 Croatia 4.47 Norway 4.40 Belgium 4.37 Germany 4.33 Sweden 4.31 Spain 4.31 Switzerland 4.12 United Kingdom 4.05 France 3.83 Greece 3.74 The Netherlands 3.71
Considering the corresponding responsibilities, do you Italy 3.49 think your allowance as a councillor is adequate or not? Israel 1.97
The UK is at the bottom of a cluster in the middle of the table but recoding a score of just over “4”. Given a seven point scale, 4 is the middle point which might say something about the UK regime system. Interestingly, in the above table 96% of Israeli councillors and 26% in both France and Greece do not receive an allowance, so no surprise they are dissatisfied. In the Netherlands and Italy, however, 100% of members receive an allowance, yet are relatively dissatisfied with the remuneration received.
The responses to questions about the allowance regime raise an important matter for policy-makers wishing to encourage larger numbers of young people to stand for council and the answer is clear: increase or change the allowance regime to properly reward members for the commitment they make. Maybe the time is ripe to consider the issue of full-time, salaried members.
8. Party Loyalty
The party politicisation of local government makes it important to understand the relationship between the councillor and the party of which he or she is a member and the public he or she represents. The research sought to test the key reference point for the councillor by posing a hypothetical question that asked councillors how they would decide to vote come a difference of opinion between party, citizens and themselves on an issue.
Table 20 and chart 4 display the responses to the question.
Table 20
PARTY LOYALTY If a councillor is opposed to the party line on an issue, and the councillor is also opposed to public opinion on an issue, and the party line and public opinion are also in opposition, how should the councillor act?
% Vote according to his/her own conviction 57.8 Vote according to the opinion of the party group 25.0 Vote according to the opinion of the voters 17.2 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Chart 4 PARTY LOYALTY
Vote according to the opinion of the voters 17%
Vote according to the opinion of the Vote according to party group his/her own 25% conviction 58%
Initially, we see a clear display of what might be called a “Burkean” approach towards representation at the local level. The majority of councillors state that they vote according to their own opinion rather than the views expressed by the two other reference points provided in the question. On the face of it the responses challenge the idea that party politicisation has a negative effect on the ability of councillors to make decisions about issues before them based on their own assessments. More careful consideration is however necessary and we have to examine the interaction between councillors and the party group of which they are a member. Given that some 93% of councillors in England are members of one of the three main political parties it is highly likely that “their own opinion” coincides with that expressed by the party group—particularly as councillors will have been present at group meetings, contributed to the debate and voted at any meeting. Thus, the councillors “own opinion” and the “opinion of the party group” are likely to be one and the same. Local representative democracy is not seen by the majority of councillors as necessarily based on expressing or voting for the views of local citizens. When we look at the responses we see that party loyalty and gender appear to be connected. Chart 5 shows responses to the question by gender. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Chart 5 PARTY LOYALTY AND GENDER 70.00%
60.00%
50.00%
40.00%
Male 30.00% Female
20.00%
10.00%
0.00% Vote according to his/her Vote according to the vote according to the own conviction opinion of the party group opinion of the voters
Further analysis shows that women and men act differently when it comes to the reference point for deciding how to vote. Women tend to be less individualistic than men and they are more inclined to vote for the views of the voter or the party group. But, a note of caution is needed as the issue is complicated by the way the question was asked as the place for “voting” was not specified and so when responding councillors will have made their own judgment about where a vote was taken. It is possible to vote in a group meeting, but be defeated in that meeting and then vote in other settings, such as council meetings, in accordance with the majority expressed in the group. Thus, councillors may have voted first in accordance with their own opinion and second with the group: what we may be seeing in the responses we received from female councillors is a reporting of the last place voted (after the group) and from males a reporting of the first place voted (the group).
9. Candidate Support The research explored how much support councillors received at election time from various organisations and individuals active within local communities. It did this to explore how close councillors were to the communities they represent and how that closeness, or otherwise, was displayed in the electoral process. Table 21 displays the responses received. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 21 SUPPORT As a candidate in the last election, to what extent did you have the support of the following groups: Not at all all Not at Little Moderate Great great Very % Your national party 17.6 13.0 30.8 23.8 14.8 Your party wing/faction 27.0 8.3 21.2 25.4 18.0 Your party at the local level 7.7 3.0 12.7 29.9 46.6 National politician(s) 31.2 19.5 26.3 13.8 9.2 An influential local person 46.3 15.9 18.2 12.0 7.6 Trade union(s) 78.0 7.6 6.9 4.8 2.8 Local business group(s) 78.5 11.3 7.5 2.0 .6 Women’s organisation(s) 82.2 8.4 5.7 2.9 .8 Local media 64.1 16.9 15.7 2.6 .8 The Church 76.8 10.7 7.9 3.7 .9 Local (voluntary) association(s) 67.5 12.1 14.0 5.0 1.4 Ethnic group(s) 82.4 7.9 5.1 3.4 1.2
The direction of travel within the responses indicates that councillors overwhelmingly receive the most support at election time from their political parties, at various levels, except from national politicians. Indeed, party sources were the only actors that received a positive score as the direction of travel for all other actors was towards the negative. Taken with the party politicisation of local government and the high level of party representation on councils this finding is not a surprise. Indeed, it reinforces the view of local representative democracy as a place where party organisation, structure, finance and activity are key resources for the potential councillor. What the responses show is the distancing, at election time, of the councillor (and party candidate) from the very communities that they govern and represent. It may be that elections are a time when candidates and organisations deliberately separate from each other with the latter not wanting to be seen to actively support a particular party. Moreover, candidates may not wish to expose non-party organisations to the battlefield of local electoral politics. Thus, a deliberate distancing of politician from represented occurs. It is more likely however, that what we see in the responses is a natural separation of the councillor from active support from community groups at election time and that the work councillors undertake with a range of bodies does not manifest in active support during elections. The responses support the idea that elections are something that is the property of political parties and other organisations enter the fray at their own peril. Thus, civil society is distanced from electoral politics and this may partly explain low levels of engagement in local elections.
10. Motivations for Standing for Election The survey explored the various sources of motivation for councillors to stand for office. It did this by focusing carefully on the “first” time a candidate stood because what motivates an existing councillor to seek re-election, given their experiences of office and a political maturation process, can reasonably be thought to vary from the original source of motivation. Table 22 sets out the responses to a range of motivational factors that result in councillors first seeking office. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Table 22 MOTIVATION
How important were the following reasons in motivating you to
stand for the council for the first time?
Not important at all Of little importance Of moderate importance Of great importance Of utmost importance % General interest in politics 5.4 7.8 27.2 33.9 25.8 To highlight the needs of the group I represent 19.3 13.1 21.0 27.2 19.5 To learn how local politics works 22.3 24.7 26.8 18.5 7.8 To work for the political party I represent 14.9 14.6 25.2 28.0 17.3 To control the administration 19.0 19.7 27.4 23.3 10.5 The member allowances 56.4 28.5 12.5 2.1 .5 To make contacts and network 36.5 25.0 22.8 11.9 3.8 To be held in high esteem 51.0 25.0 18.7 3.6 1.7 To start a political career 45.4 25.4 17.5 7.4 4.3 To influence specific issues 10.4 5.4 22.5 37.1 24.6 As part of civic duty to engage oneself in council affairs 7.2 9.5 25.1 32.2 26.0
Political parties again feature in the responses and working for the party of which the councillor is a member is a clear motivating factor in first seeking office. So too does working for the “group” the councillor seeks to represent and this response is a companion to working for the party as the two sets of interests will come together for the candidate. There is also a strong ethos of public service displayed in the responses and a rejection of any self-interested motivations such as allowances or social status. It is apparent that the desire to influence the outcome of individual local issues or policy concerns is also a motivating factor. What we see, again not surprisingly, from the responses is a politically orientated motivation in standing for the first time, with party looming large in the considerations. But, standing for council for the first time, is not motivated by a desire to embark on a political career. It appears councillors do not see the council as a stepping stone to other levels of government or are motivated by advancement on the council.
11. Future Plans The idea that councillors do not see the council as a stepping stone to other levels of government is supported when the survey asked councillors about the plans they had for the future. Table 23 and chart 6 sets out the responses received to that question.
Table 23 FUTURE PLANS What are you planning to do at the end of the present term of office? % I would like to continue as a councillor 68.3 I would like to continue my political career in a higher political office on the council 7.2 I would like to continue my political career in a higher political office at the regional or national level 4.7 I would like to leave politics 19.8 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Chart 6 FUTURE PLANS 80.0
70.0
60.0
50.0
40.0
30.0
20.0
10.0
0.0 I would like to continue I would like to continue I would like to continue I would like to leave as a councillor my political career in a my political career in a politics higher political office on higher political office at the council the regional or national level
The majority of respondents intended to remain as councillors—party and electorate permitting. With so many councillors intending to seek re-selection and election, the opportunities to refresh the existing pool of councillors with new entrants from different backgrounds depends on parties themselves selecting new candidates and inevitably de-selecting existing ones. It also rests with the voters going on to elect those candidates. The responses show however, a continual and strong commitment among existing councillors to public service and political activity and that is a positive feature for local democracy.
12. Reasons for Leaving The survey then went on to explore the reasons why those councillors that were intending to leave the council had decided to do so. Table 24 and chart 7 show the responses to the reasons available to councillors when asked why they were intending to stand down.
Table 24 REASONS FOR LEAVING If you want to leave politics, could you please state why? No Yes % I want to concentrate on my professional occupation 83.3 16.7 I want to work for a voluntary organisation 80.2 19.8 I have done my civic duty 37.3 62.7 Local politics is too time-consuming in relation to family or occupation 40.8 59.2 I lack influence (myself, my party, or councils in general) 70.2 29.8 I am too old 40.5 59.5 I will move from the council area 85.0 15.0 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Chart 7
REASONS FOR LEAVING 90.0 80.0 70.0 60.0 50.0 40.0 30.0 20.0 10.0 No 0.0 Yes I am too old I have done my civic duty I will move from the council area Local politics is too time-consuming in.... I lack influence (myself, my party, or...... ) I lack influence (myself, my party, I want to work for a voluntary organisation I want to concentrate on my professional.....
What the responses indicate is that councillors intending to leave the council appear to be doing so to “spend more time with their families” (or their jobs). In other words, council duties are a time consuming set of responsibilities and maybe too demanding for some, given that the office is not full-time and paid in the same way as a salaried occupation. Although, leaving the council to concentrate on a professional occupation is not such a great motivator, so what we are seeing here is a reaction to the time demands of council work.
Among the leaving councillors there is also a sense that they have fulfilled their civic duty and that it was time to move on to other things. It may be that the public service ethos identified above as a motivating factor to stand for council has a limited life-span. It also appears that a number of councillors feel that they are now “too old” to continue as a councillor, so contradicting the point made above in discussing future plans that it might be difficult to change the composition of the councillor population with so many intending to seek re- election. The contradiction is eased however, by remembering that the responses are from those that have indeed decided to step down and thus we are looking at a smaller group of members, for whom, age is a key factor.
Conclusion
A constant theme running through many of the responses is the strength of the relationship councillors have with their political parties and more specifically their party group on the council. Indeed, representing the party is a key factor for councillors and it is through this vehicle that a wider group or set of interests that the councillor focuses on are also represented and promoted. There is a noticeable distancing however, in the responses, of the councillor from the wider social world and while councillors clearly come from and perceive they represent that social world, they are not, as a body, as connected to it as would be expected in local government. Yet, there is still a strong element of public duty and public service ethos that is clear from the way councillors approach their responsibilities.
Councillors have a tendency to look inwards towards the council rather than outwards towards the various communities and other public sector bodies within their areas, at least when responding to the questions presented to them in this survey. Indicated here is a disconnection between the perceptions councillors have about the influence of their own institution and the myriad of other public sector bodies that operate in the same wider networks within which councillors themselves also work. That perception may not always match the reality of the resources and policy-making power of organisations, other than councils, within governance networks which councillors appear not to recognise. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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The dedication of councillors to their localities is emphasised by the fact that local government is not seen as a stepping stone to higher levels of government. The responses indicate the existence of a division of political labour with councillors seeing political service as being delivered within their locality and through local government, rather than at the national level. It is a sign of strong local government and politics that so many motivated to stand for office for political reasons, see local government as the place where they are committed to continue serving. October 2012
Written evidence from Dame Jane Roberts (CC 06) Summary — The Councillors Commission’s report, “Representing the Future” was published in December 2007. It addressed very similar issues to those that the Select Committee is currently investigating. — A copy of “Representing the Future” has been made available to members of the Select Committee to accompany this submission as this is “material that has already been published elsewhere”, as in the guide for written statements to Select Committees. My submission will summarise therefore key issues pertinent to a number of areas listed in the Select Committee’s Announcement of Inquiry. It will not cover all the deliberations of the Commission nor all its recommendations. — Progress since the Councillors Commission is briefly covered. — It is suggested that the role of councillors could usefully be considered within a wider framework, together with the role of other elected representatives.
Background to the Commission 1. The Councillors Commission, that I chaired, was set up by Ruth Kelly, MP, then Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (CLG), in early 2007. It was asked to make recommendations regarding the incentives and barriers to: encouraging suitably able, qualified and representative people to serve as councillors; their retention and development once elected; and their being able to secure public interest and recognition for the work that they do. It was an independent and cross party review. 2. The review was prompted by concerns at CLG that councillors were very unrepresentative of the communities that they represented. At the time of our deliberations, only 4.1% of councillors were from ethnic minority backgrounds, only 29.3% were women, and only 13.5% were under 45. Younger councillors with a disability were few and far between. The most recent survey of councillors shows little change with representation by women stubbornly static, but the average age has increased to 60. 3. The work of the Commission took us to many different parts of England and Wales, listening to hundreds of people. We received over 200 submissions; we both commissioned research and reviewed existing research including the evidence internationally. 4. The considerations of the Councillors Commission took us wider than merely matters of, for example, support and remuneration to elected members. We felt that we could not useful recommendations without stepping back to consider wider changes that had taken place concerning local democracy and governance more generally in recent times. 5. We reported to Hazel Blears, MP, by then Secretary of State at CLG, in December 2007 with our conclusions, listing five principles for effective representation, and 61 recommendations in “Representing the Future”. The recommendations were grouped into four areas: making councillors central to local democracy; making the role of councillor more widely known and better appreciated; making it easier for everyone with the potential, regardless of background, to come forward and for a more diverse range of councillors to be elected; and making it easier for busy people to be councillors. 6. The Chair of the Commission met with the Chairman of the Conservative Party, the President of the Liberal Democrats and with the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party. Harriet Harman, MP, instigated the Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) Councillors Task Force towards the end of our deliberations. 7. The Government made its response to the Commission’s report in July 2008, accepting most of our recommendations. Our first recommendation, that local authorities should be charged with a statutory duty to promote local democratic engagement, was central to the Communities in Control White Paper and was incorporated into legislation that received Royal Assent. It was later however repealed by the coalition government.
Areas Highlighted in the Select Committee’s Announcement of Inquiry 8. Role of councillors as leaders of communities and neighbourhoods 8.1 We came to the view that there were profound concerns about the relationship between the individual citizen and the state, characterised as one of “disenchantment, disengagement and mutual incomprehension”. Local councillors should be part of the solution to this democratic malaise rather than seen as part of the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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problem which is too often the case, and a key link in the chain of governance. It is, after all, at the local level, that people are first most likely to be interested and get involved in decision making, perhaps by virtue of their children’s schooling, by tenant participation or by interest in other local environment issues. This may lead to more formal roles as school governors, tenant leaders etc. Professor George Jones has stated, “a participatory democracy can only be built at local level” and “the task of local government should be to foster the habit of citizenship”. 8.2 Councillors have an added legitimacy by virtue of their election for a wider geographical area although they should recognise that others will also have legitimacy: we live in a more plural world. Place—both the physical and social aspects of place—remains key to our experience of life. Its importance is often under- estimated. 8.3 We saw elected local representatives as “the indispensable link between the public and decisions that have to be made in the collective interest”. This does not preclude more direct participative means of democratic engagement—indeed, representative democracy depends on participative democracy to inform and enrich it. Councillors act at the interface between representative and participative democracy. 8.4 We saw the modern councillor “using a rich mixture of ways to link the different communities that she or he represents to formal decision making processes. Councillors need to look outwards into the community as well as inwards to the formal processes of the council. Their function is of two way translators, communicating public feelings into the council’s priority setting and decision making structures, and explaining and making sense of council decisions and the reasons for them to the public”. This does, of course, put a high premium on communication skills. 8.5 The Commission suggested a more specific starting point for a councillor role description that could then be adapted and developed by councils to suit local circumstances.
9. Recruitment and diversity of councillors 9.1 Unbalanced representation in councils compounds a sense that we are governed by a separate political class who look and talk very differently from “ordinary people”, that in turn distances people from an understanding of the political process and its importance, and can feed a destructive cynicism in politics. Professor Stephen Coleman, whom we quoted in the report, writes compellingly on this issue. The Commission’s report argued on page 14 that descriptive representativeness is important both symbolically and substantively whereby different core interests can be fed directly into the democratic process. 9.2 The Commission’s report goes into considerable detail about the reasons why more women, more people from a BME background, and more disabled people do not consider standing in local elections, are not selected and are not elected. In summary, there is no one reason but rather a combination of issues (notably a lack of awareness of the democratic process generally and more specifically how to get more involved, electoral arrangements, the culture of the political parties and local government, lack of confidence, time commitment and the anxieties about the possible impact on work and family life, attitude of employers, as well as the practicalities in terms of organisation, timing of meetings, lack of support). There was some evidence that it may well be more difficult to get selected than elected and this is obviously a crucial issue for the political parties to address. The Committee could consider the writings of Professor Gerry Stoker, in for example, “Why Politics Matters. Making Democracy Work” (2006 Palgrave MacMillan) whom I quoted a great deal when speaking about the Councillors Commission. His CLEAR model is useful for considering the constraints and prospects for participation in the democratic process: our own findings very much echoed his academic work. 9.3 Given that there are a range of reasons why relatively few women, people from a BME background, younger people and those who have a disability become councillors, so in turn, there is no one magic bullet that remedies the problem. I did however come to the view that it is not quite as difficult to attract a wide range of candidates as is often made out. What is however extraordinarily difficult is for there to be real determination and commitment, particularly on the part of those with influence, to bring about change. The focus and drive of local political leadership here is absolutely crucial. The tendency, however, of those in power to remain in power—and only in the last resort to replace themselves, but then in their own likeness, should never be underestimated.
10. Skills, training and support for councillors 10.1 The skills demanded of councillors are complex: we listed “listening; negotiating; probing and scrutinising; handling contradiction; lobbying; campaigning; community development; conflict resolution; mediation; and of course, decision making. Few individuals will have all these skills in equal measure, hence the usefulness of gauging the balance of skills across the council as a whole and across wards and divisions.” 10.2 Local government has made considerably more headway over recent years than central government in recognising the need for and establishing training programmes. A number of councils have brought in innovative schemes, recognised by the national Member Development Charter scheme and annual awards. Training should be available in a range of areas including in approaches to community development. We recommended that personal development plans should be drawn up so that training tailored to individual development needs can be facilitated. There should be an explicit expectation that councillors will fulfil their cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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side of the bargain and take up such training opportunities. Formal accreditation to validate councillors’ acquisition of skills should be widely established.
10.3 We recommended that local authorities should meet specified minimum standards for support to councillors that would include administrative support for case work; research support for ward work; IT equipment for use at home or mobile; arrangements and publicity for advice surgeries; arrangements for child and dependent care cover; and social networking training and support. I understand that there is still considerable variation between councils in terms of the range and amount of support offered.
10.4 Remuneration of councillors is a vexed issue. The Commission’s view, based on an overview of the evidence, was that there should be no financial disincentive to becoming a councillor rather than any financial incentive. We recommended a national framework of guiding principles for member allowances, suggesting a national minimum basic allowance for each type and size of authority, and a carer’s allowance.
11. Practicalities of being a councillor
There are a number of practical factors that can make it very difficult to become and remain a councillor: — a lack of awareness about local democracy, what councils are, and how to become a councillor in the first place. The Commission examined this issue in greater depth as we were very concerned about the lack of understanding about local government and what councillors do, let alone about how to become a councillor. And in areas of England where there are counties and districts, it can be even more baffling. This led to our first—and in my view, most important recommendation—that local authorities should be charged with a statutory duty to facilitate local democratic engagement. The recommendation suggested means by which councils could pursue this duty using four tiers. The LGA has in recent years put considerable effort into publicising a wider range of people that stand to be councillors but there is a great deal more that councils themselves and political parties could do; — time commitment, both perceived and actual, and the possible consequences for family life and employment. We recommended that councils should adopt modern business and meeting processes which seek to remove potential barriers to participation. These should include accessible meeting times (not necessarily in the day, and with specified end times), efficient chairing, the use of modern technology where appropriate, support for childcare, and concise paperwork. We felt strongly that councillors should be able to work in a variety of other employments, have domestic commitments, and be a councillor; and — employers’ attitude. Despite the requirement that employers should make “reasonable provision” for employees who are councillors, there is a significant minority who do not. In current austere times, this may well be exacerbated. Better engagement of local authorities with employers and a better perception of the value of serving in local government is a necessary part of addressing this issue.
12. Since the Commission
12.1 Representing the Future’s principles, and most of its recommendations, were accepted by the government in 2008. The report was very well received by local government commentators, academics and many in local and central government although others seemed to find some of its recommendations more radical than perhaps they were willing to go along with. Political parties were not interested enough, a problem then and, I suspect, now.
The recommendations were directed at a number of different players: central government, the LGA and the Improvement and Development Agency (IDeA) as it then was, local authorities, political parties, employers, public service broadcasters and Ofcom.
12.2 Members of the Commission met for the final time in April 2009 to examine how much progress had been made. Reasonable progress had been made in some areas for example: by central government in its inclusion in legislation of a statutory duty to promote democracy; and by the LGA and IDeA in its communications and national campaigns to promote the role of a councillor. I spoke at numerous events up and down the country about the Commission’s work up to mid 2010. Since then, however, there have been numerous changes of council control, a change in the LGA leadership, and of course, a new government in Westminster.
12.3 I have always been clear that in order to effect substantial change, determined and persistent leadership of the issues raised by the Commission within local and central government and within the main political parties is required. It is the political will to effect change that is so important: it is not, I believe now, hard to make a difference to raising the profile of councillors, to recruiting a more diverse group, and to supporting councillors better. The debate nationally has, however, been overshadowed by an almost exclusive focus on the merits or demerits of directly elected mayors. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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13. The need for wider debate Having thought over the years about the issues that are now raised by the Select Committee’s Inquiry, I suggest that the role of councillors is not most usefully examined in isolation from other elected representatives (MPs, MSPs in Scotland, Assembly Members in Wales and London and, to a lesser extent, MEPs). Sir Michael Lyons, in his masterful report from the Lyons Inquiry, talked of local government being part of “a single system of government”. Yet there is little debate about the roles of representatives at different layers of governance: who can most effectively do what; how can elected representatives at different levels best work together? Any one area may, for example, be represented by five people (a councillor at parish, district, and county level, a Westminster MP and a MEP) but how much communication do they have with one another? How does this make sense to an individual constituent? MPs have been encouraged in recent years to spend more time in their constituencies but they will often feel under pressure to respond directly to constituents on matters that come within the remit of local government. Is this helpful? What is the nature of the relationship between an MP, a leader or a directly elected mayor, particularly with regard to issues of place? May 2012
Written evidence from Sunderland City Council (CC 10) This submission will highlight: 1. The centrality of community leadership and the role of Councillors to the Sunderland Way of Working—the City Council’s overarching framework for public service reform, organisational development and local governance. 2. The progress of SCC’s Community Leadership Programme (CLP)—designed explicitly to develop the role of Councillors as community leaders, change agents and partners in the transformation of social outcomes and public service effectiveness in the city. 3. The potential for further development of these themes as a response to encouraging evidence so far, and as part of SCC’s evolving programme for service delivery and governance in future.
Section 1—Introduction to the Community Leadership Programme 1.1 Sunderland City Council has driven its work supporting the role of Councillors through its Community Leadership Programme (CLP). The CLP was designed in 2009 as part of SCC’s strategy to deal with the challenges of future funding constraint, changing citizen demand and a need to improve social and economic outcomes in the City. At root, the CLP represents a belief that elected members must be at the heart of Sunderland’s strategy for social and economic renewal, but that to fulfil their potential as community leaders, they need a new type of support and capacity building, and a new set of tools to lead. 1.2 Accordingly, the CLP incorporates a variety of support interventions and development initiatives under three broad strategic directions: (a) Engaging Councillors more effectively as community leaders—creating new support structures that can improve communication and responsiveness, build stronger bonds of trust, and empower Councillors at the community front line. (b) Engaging Councillors in the development of Responsive Local Services (RLS)—creating new governance and engagement mechanisms that support Council services that get closer to citizens and are more directly responsive to the needs of people and place. (c) Engaging Councillors as partners in local economic growth—developing the means to engage Councillors in the City’s Economic Masterplan growth framework, particularly around the potential of citizens and communities to develop new SME’s and public service spin-outs.
About the City and its Councillors 1.3 Sunderland has 75 Councillors, broken down as per section 3 below. The City is administered through five area committees, each of which corresponds to one of the City’s “regeneration areas”: West, East and North Sunderland, Coalfields and Washington areas. Each area committee is made up of between four to six wards. [see section 3 for more information] 1.4 The City of Sunderland has faced huge social and economic challenges since the de-industrialisation of the 1980s. The “Sunderland Way of Working” has been developed in part with this legacy in mind, setting out a pragmatic and localised response to the fiscal and demand challenges of the current context. Central to this is the need to leverage resources already within sight of the Council, shift emphasis from the Civic Centre to areas and neighbourhoods, and improve the responsiveness of services and communication. The CLP has driven these shifts through tapping into the capacity and desire of Councillors to do more to build the resilience and assets of their communities. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Community Leadership in Practice: some headline figures
1.5 Sunderland City Council has placed considerable political emphasis and goodwill on supporting Councillors to be at the forefront of strategies for social and economic renewal in the City. In the following pages, we detail how this has worked in response to specific areas of focus highlighted in the CLG Select Committee call for evidence. Three years after inception, the CLP retains real momentum, and is a focal point for much of the Council’s strategy for public service reform and community wellbeing. Yet we also believe that the story so far is one of vindication for SCC’s focus on the role of Councillors as key agents of change, and advocates for a new way of working in the City. Some snapshot figures illustrate this (see also Appendix 2): (a) Most recent survey figures show that 91% of Councillors consider officer support services “good” or “excellent”. This is a rise of 26 percentage points on the 2009 baseline figure. (b) Frequent use of ICT amongst Councillors has risen from 35% in 2009 to a recent highpoint of 97%—in large part due to the role of account managers supporting this transition. (c) Individual Account Managers assigned to Councillors as part of the CLP have returned a satisfaction rating (rated “good” or “excellent”) of 94% for accessibility and 91% for speed and quality of response to member queries.
1.6 SCC has achieved these notable rises in member satisfaction and capability through an open, reflective approach that has been responsive to the needs and aspirations of elected members themselves. We have deliberately sought to break down the concepts of member satisfaction and community leadership into manageable, measureable constituent elements (see Appendices 1 and 2). This has resulted in an ongoing programme that eschews top-down change programme implementation in favour of a cumulative, evolutionary process, in which momentum has been built around meaningful change on a range of issues that Councillors themselves care about. We continue to be open to new ideas and the potential of improving Member-Officer relationships, and, ultimately, supporting Councillors to play a transformational role in their communities. The following pages set out specific developments against the points of focus set out in the Select Committee call for responses.
Section 2—The Role of Councillors as Leaders of Communities and Neighbourhoods 2.1 This has been an area of considerable focus for Sunderland. The belief that Councillors are community leaders provides the normative basis for the city’s Community Leadership Programme, and we have achieved demonstrable success in supporting Councillors to fulfil this role. A strong over-arching framework has driven this process, and some small—yet significant—interventions have helped to generate buy-in and enthusiasm.
2.2 As we detail in the following pages, these interventions were designed to address issues Councillors themselves identified as barriers to acting as community leaders. As the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has shown “many members feel it is hard to achieve...because they are marginalised in decision making, lacking the information they need to shape and influence broader plans, and unable to act directly on many very local concerns”.2
2.3 Member surveys show the impact of shifting the focus to community leadership and directly addressing these issues. Our 2009 member survey indicated that 65% of members thought that officer support was good or excellent.3 The implementation of the CLP raised this percentage to 85% in the short term, with most recent figures indicating a 91% “good” or “excellent” rating. We believe that placing community leadership at the heart of the Council’s corporate strategy and way of working is a key reason for this.
Our experience indicates that the following were key: (a) A clear and obvious focus on community leadership as a key functioning of the Sunderland Way of Working. This has clearly linked the role of Councillors to some significant developments in organisational reform and local public service decentralisation. (b) An emphasis on collaboration and openness—working with elected members to break down good community leadership into understandable and actionable interventions. These have been measured and published as a Member Satisfaction Flow Chart, which measures and tracks member satisfaction against these specific support mechanisms. The Flow Chart has become a key indicator of progress within the CLP, with the member satisfaction survey itself designed around these issues. (c) A sustained drive to improve Councillor-officer relationships and create effective partnerships to facilitate better community leadership. An upsurge in goodwill as a result of the programme has been leveraged to push the CLP outside of the traditional comfort zone of Councillors and officers, allowing the Council to progress major reforms to responsive local public services in partnership with Councillors. 2 James, S and Cox, E (2007). “Ward Councillors and Community Leadership: a future perspective” Joseph Rowntree Foundation online at http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jrf/2125-local-government-Councillors.pdf 3 This survey was conducted approximately six months after CLP kick-off activities such as workshops on member role definition. Informal estimates suggest the figure would have been closer to 40%–50% before this. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Section 3—Recruitment and Diversity of Councillors 3.1 Sunderland City Council is a metropolitan authority serving a population of c 280,000 people. The Council has 75 Councillors divided into 25 Wards. The composition of the Council at May 2012 is: Labour 64 Members Conservative 8 Independent 3 3.2 The Council has experienced a major turnover of Councillors in recent years. 60% of Councillors have been in office for less than five years, 80% for less than 10 years and only seven for longer than 20 years. We have welcomed 30 new Councillors in the last three years. (40% of our total Councillors.)
Composition of the Council 3.3 Some key indicators are as follows: (a) Approaching 40% of our Councillors are women. (b) We have no Councillors from minority populations. This is similar to the wider regional picture where 98.8% of Councillors are of white origin. (c) We have three Independent Councillors at the moment and have probably peaked in this respect for the time being. (d) Sunderland has 10% fewer Councillors in full-time, part-time of self-employment than the North East region or England as a whole. We have 10–15% fewer from professional or technical backgrounds, but 30% higher than the national average from executive or management backgrounds. (e) The city has many more Members from local government (including associated organisations and networks) backgrounds. This is 50% higher than the broader North East region, and 150% higher than England. We do, however, have 25% fewer Members than the national average from private sector occupations. (f) In terms of higher-level qualifications, our Councillors score 20% lower than the North East region, but at GCSE/A-level we are nearly 50% higher than both regional and national averages. (g) The city has a much higher young Councillor (under 25) figure than either the region or England. 46% of our Councillors are over 60 (likely to fall as a % after the current election), as compared with an average 64% within the North East, and 59% nationally.
Section 4—Skills, Training and Support for Councillors 4.1 SCC has placed great emphasis on skills, training and support, with several key mechanisms put in place since 2009. At the core of our approach has been an understanding that Councillors must be given the right tools to become community leaders, but that our understanding of what these tools are must move with the times, and be responsive to the needs of Councillors themselves. Developing stronger bonds of trust between Councillors and officers has been key to this process. 4.2 The impact of these member “customer care” initiatives in Sunderland has been very positive—with aforementioned satisfaction ratings for officer support reaching 91%. Deploying time and resources on providing better support has led to higher satisfaction and greater trust between members and officers, which has allowed the CLP to build momentum, take sensitive decisions more quickly and move into exciting and radical new territory. Our experience indicates that the following facets were key: 4.3 A collaboratively designed role definition for Councillors. This tapped into and developed Councillors’ understanding of what a community leader should represent, how they could achieve this in practice, and what support and tools they needed to get there. Defining this role was a cost-free foundation that identified future service improvements and built confidence in the process. 4.4 A bespoke service directory for Councillors. This is an electronic directory that provides first point of contact officers’ for member enquiries. It was developed according to members own “in tray” priorities, and designed with quick response in mind to ensure that Councillor queries are directed to the right person first time around. Key Council staff have been inducted and trained according to these priorities, with an emphasis on responsiveness and empathy to Councillor needs. A 95% “good” or “excellent” satisfaction rating indicates the success of this initiative. 4.5 A Member Satisfaction Survey based on key themes identified by the aforementioned Member Satisfaction Flow Chart. This electronically conducted survey has achieved returns of between 62 and 66% across (five surveys have been conducted so far), and is designed to take the pulse of Councillors against the key issues they have themselves identified. Findings are analysed at granular level and form an evidence base for following phases of reform. 4.6 The introduction of designated Account Managers as a key part of improving responsiveness and member-officer relationships (see Appendix 5). AMs’ are officers who have volunteered (over and above their cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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“day jobs” within the Council) to be a first point of contact to Councillors, providing a range of capacity development, communications, opinion testing and support functions. SCC currently has over 50 account managers who are largely partnered with Councillors on a 1:2 basis. AMs are considered very valuable by Councillors—especially newer members who are building new relationships within the Council and community. A recent survey recorded 94% satisfaction (“good” or “excellent”), including a 91% satisfaction rating for speed and responsiveness to member enquiries. 4.7 A strong focus on ICT capacity development. AMs have enabled a step change in the use of ICTs by Councillors—helping to increase the percentage regularly using ICTs from 35% to 97%. Electronic Ward Bulletins have improved access to information and current events within Sunderland’s wards, with 75% of Councillors regularly using them, and 75% of those Councillors reporting “good” or “excellent” service levels. Electronic Ward Bulletins are a fundamental part of building trust and capacity of Councillors—giving them information on their wards before they hear it elsewhere, and from an accurate source. Emphasis on this area is in direct response to a perceived and reported lack of awareness about key happenings “on the doorstep”. More integrated use of ICT allows this information to be disseminated quickly and accurately to Councillors.
Section 5—Localising Decision-Making to Divisions, Ward and Neighbourhoods and Oversight, Facilitation and Accountability 5.1 The Sunderland Way of Working has enshrined a commitment to the meaningful decentralisation of local public services to areas and neighbourhoods. The agenda is being rolled out in practice under the banner of Responsive Local Services, which has transformed the governance and delivery of environmental (street scene) services in the city, and is currently being rolled out in other service areas. Fundamental to this is the de- siloing of traditional services into “people” and “place” units, the governance of which will take place through Responsive Local Service Boards (analogous to the current Area Committee structure) populated by Councillors, officers and citizens. 5.2 SCC has recently completed a fundamental review (completed in March 2012, see Appendix 3) of its Executive and Committee arrangements to support these processes, and has engaged independent peer reviewers to facilitate the exercise. Following all-party support, Annual Council is being asked to consider the following radical changes to local decision-making and governance. (a) Consolidation of the role of Area Committees as local hubs of community leadership and service redesign. (b) Introduction of Area Boards for “place” and “people” as the focus of de-siloing Council services and decentralised governance. Area boards are effectively the “working hubs” of decentralised service arrangements. They give local Councillors a direct, practical influence on a wide range of services, and bring together Councillors, officers and residents to take collaborative decisions on neighbourhood issues. (c) Active encouragement of area boards to recommend bottom-up changes to current service standards and approaches—which we intend to lead to tangible improvements in policy and practice. This places huge emphasis on the role of Councillors as catalysts and change agents in the Council’s relationship with citizens and communities. (d) Establishment of a clearer relationship between Cabinet, Area Committees and Area Boards to aid the introduction and bedding in of aforementioned area arrangements. (e) Faster and more effective decision-making (and a freeing up of local area budgets) on local budget determination as part of radically improving responsiveness to citizens and Councillors at the front line. 5.3 Creating Local Area Boards for neighbourhood/ward level public service delivery is central to the next phase of the Community Leadership Programme and the Sunderland Way of Working. The intention is for Area Boards to become the focal point for information and insight into micro-local issues, a hub of relationships and decision-making at the local level, and a vehicle for member-officer interaction and a new generation of locally responsive public services. 5.4 Local Area Boards shift the Councillor role from scrutiny and performance review, to direct involvement in setting the pace and changing standards and service model at the local level. Integration of existing annual “State of the City” with new “State of the Area” public debates will be a key part of ensuring that citizens” voices are reflected through this process in multiple ways.
Section 6—Strategic Leadership, Governance and Responsibilities 6.1 The City Council’s “Sunderland Way of Working” represents a uniquely local way of working, utilising the resources the city has at its disposal, and creating a means through austerity and an evolution of public service arrangements with Councillors in a leading role. We have—to date—deliberately underplayed our considerable progress in this area, wanting to under-claim and over-deliver on a programme that is vital to the future wellbeing of Sunderland’s communities. 6.2 Nevertheless, the changes in budget allocation, staffing and organisational structure that have arisen as a result of the spending review and internal change mechanisms are profound. The Council has achieved £88 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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million worth of efficiency savings over two years—the front loaded element of a four year mandate to save £125 million. During that period, non-school local authority posts have been reduced from 8,100 to 6,800 without a single voluntary or enforced redundancy.
6.3 We have taken calls to achieve “more for less” very seriously, and see Councillors and community leadership as fundamental to achieving this. We believe that we have helped to achieve not only service parity, but a step change in quality through this period, using the crisis as an opportunity to develop a more collaborative form of strategic leadership with better member-Councillor relationships at the core.
Community Leadership in a Regional Context
6.4 Sunderland City Council is in position to play a leading role developing community leadership and the role of Councillors in the wider North East region. Our public and political profile in the region is high, partly on the back of notable economic success stories (new investment in the Nissan manufacturing plant, for example) and some landmark developments in public infrastructure (securing Department of Transport funding for a new £82.5 million Wear bridge connecting the City with the A19 corridor). We are keen to use this raised platform to openly discuss and develop the future of community leadership, as a recent programme review by the RSA’s 2020 Public Services Hub (see appendix 4) makes clear.
6.5 Cllr Paul Watson is current chair of the Association of North East Councils (ANEC), and the executive is active in a range of policy debates around local governance, economic growth and community development through organisations such as the Centre for Cities and the RSA. The legacy of focusing on community leadership and building trust between Councillors and officers is a working culture that we believe is now collaborative by default. SCC’s joint-leadership team works on the basis of articulating shared problems and developing collaborative means of solving them from the outset. Early information, a joint mandate and a commitment to bringing people together in a “shared space” are vital to the success of the CLP and the Sunderland Way of Working. This shift in mindset has driven tangible change and a much more rapid ideas- to-practice journey, creating a collaborative, problem-solving atmosphere from a baseline of siloed decision- making and vested interest.
Section 7—Conclusion and Invitation
7.1 Sunderland City Council has put the role of Councillors firmly at the centre of its strategy for local service devolution and improvement, its collaborative agenda for local growth, and its corporate strategy for the evolution of a 21st century North East urban Council. Evaluation (both internal and external) of the Community Leadership Programme indicates significant improvement of Councillor-member relationships, significant increase in the ability of Councillors to respond to local issues with speed and accuracy, and a shift in mindset towards collaborative working that is beginning to pervade the entire organisation. Our aim has been to “close the loop” through planning, design, review and implementation—to ensure collaborative working at the top of the organisation through shared Councillor-executive leadership, and shared problem solving and service accountability at the front line. What we have learnt is that achieving this is about delivering on tangible, manageable and personalised elements of change, the cumulative effect of which has been to build trust and enable faster movement on some previously intractable issues for the Council and its residents.
7.2 We believe that this focus on the role of Councillors in the community has catalysed positive change that would have been hitherto unthinkable. We would like to invite members of the Communities and Local Government Select Committee to visit Sunderland and observe the impact of the CLP and attendant changes to local responsive services within the city’s neighbourhoods. We would be delighted to give further (written or oral) evidence on this subject as we look to develop Sunderland City Council’s role as an advocate for community leadership and an observatory of good practice within the region and beyond. May 2012
Written evidence from Local Government Association (CC 11)
The Local Government Association is here to support, promote and improve local government. We will fight local government’s corner and support councils through challenging times by focusing on our top two priorities: — representing and advocating for local government and making the case for greater devolution; and — helping councils tackle their challenges and take advantage of new opportunities to deliver better value for money services. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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1. Summary — The role of councillors is changing. As more powers are devolved to local communities and neighbourhoods, ward councillors are more able to play active roles in their communities, so making a real impact on people’s lives. It is not just the ward role that is changing. Council leaders are increasingly focused beyond authority boundaries, looking at conurbations and sub- regions. And councillors in cabinet roles are focusing not just on what is directly delivered, but on local public services as a whole. — The role is therefore becoming more demanding and expectations are rising. There is also a desire for councillors to be more representative of their places and for more people from all walks of life to become councillors. The LGA welcomes this opportunity to explore how the changes to the role of councillor could be an impetus to make the role more appealing, accessible and better understood, thus encouraging more people to become councillors. — There are challenges to making this happen yet these are not insurmountable. They require a step change in how we support councillors. We need to recognise the vast range of skills and knowledge that councillors bring to councils, and support councillors to recognise and develop their talents. For some councillors, the demands on their time are the biggest hurdle and it is often felt that it is not possible to hold the position and have a full-time job. However, we need a growing recognition that councillors’ time is limited as it is a voluntary activity and not an alternative to employment. We as a sector need to make the best use of councillors’ skills and knowledge within this time constraint. — We also see the public attitude toward politics,4 coupled with the lack of awareness of the role of local politicians, as a key barrier for new people to get involved. We need to improve the recruitment of councillors, use their time and skills better and to support them better—these are mutually supportive elements to reinvigorating local politics.
2. Background We are at a pivotal moment for local councils. Strong leaders are needed to navigate the challenges of severe financial constraints and seize the opportunities of central government reforms of public services. There is a real opportunity for us to realise our ambition for councils to be truly at the heart of local communities— delivering and commissioning better public services. In this time of austerity, we will also need to be even more ambitious when it comes to reshaping services in the future. Local government is only ever as vibrant, effective and relevant as the people elected to run it. We need councillors who are capable, energetic and engaged, with both a passion for change and a commitment to the local people they are seeking to represent. Ensuring that councils better represent their electorate is not simply a case of encouraging more diversity in terms of age, gender or ethnicity, although that does play a part in making councils more relevant. We need different kinds of people willing to stand for election to give our electorate real choice. Councillors are crucial to the LGA’s shared vision for local government. We need to ensure our members are bold and ambitious leaders, equipped to tackle the challenges facing their communities: reinvigorating local governance, ensuring strong democratic accountability, supporting local government to make a difference, to deliver and to be trusted. Effective political leadership is at the heart of effective democracy. We are committed to supporting and developing the councillors on whose shoulders this rests. From the Leadership Academy, our longest standing support programme from which over 2,000 councillors from almost every council in the country have graduated, to Next Generation, the only national support programme for councillors developed within party traditions, we have a range of opportunities to support members in their changing role and throughout their career. We also foster strong alumni networks.
3. The Role of the Councillor is Changing Pressure on public finances, a rising demand for services and increasing expectations from service users is driving a sea change in the way the state and its citizens interact. Seen through the lens of public services, this brings together a demand for greater efficiency of delivery, with higher expectations of service quality and outcomes. This entails a fundamental rethink in the way public services are delivered and how local communities and neighbourhoods are involved in that delivery. Meeting these challenges needs a strong link between the state and other service providers—civil society groups, the private sector, social enterprises etc—and the users of these services. Councillors have the democratic legitimacy to undertake this role and ensure that public services, regulatory activity and asset management are properly held to account. This is particularly important given national and local trends to localise decision-making and service delivery. We need recognition that there is something unique about holding any democratically elected role that sets the office holder apart from other public servants. 4 The July 2011 Veracity Index compiled by Ipsos MORI showed politicians to be the least trusted profession. http://www.ipsos- mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/2818/Doctors-are-most-trusted-profession-politicians-least-trusted.aspx cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Linking services and their users is undertaken both through formal structures (for those members with executive responsibility) and community-based activity. The latter will be particularly important in coming years and it is here we see the future role of councillors being played out. This has implications for the strategic leadership role of councillors. Council leaders will be focused not just on their authorities but beyond their boundaries such as to cities and regions, sharing best practice, information and strategic vision. Cabinet members will also be looking not just at what is directly delivered, but at local public services as a whole. All councillors need leadership skills for their ward, divisions and neighbourhoods. They might become, in effect, cabinet members for their ward.
3.1 The role of councillors as leaders of communities and neighbourhoods Success as leaders will depend on leading and convening the many groups that make up local communities— whether voluntary and community organisations, Small and Medium Enterprises, faith groups, groups of service users or others, and making sure that the needs of seldom heard groups are included in the decisions about their local public services and neighbourhoods. Councillors have the democratic mandate to convene conversations across their wards and divisions. Councillors act as brokers to bring together those with common interests to make progress on shared aims and act as the link between local groups and the council. Councillors must have the deep knowledge of their communities that allows them to represent local people’s needs effectively: they know who the people with most need are and will understand them as people rather than customers or problems. At the same time, councillors must balance the needs of individuals and groups across often diverse communities to ensure that services are delivered in the best way to achieve better local outcomes. As public services become more joined up through, for example, Health and Wellbeing Boards and Community Budgets approaches, effective representation of local people will become even more important. A councillor’s local knowledge and understanding is going to be critical to the development of responsive, effective and accountable services. Councillors will increasingly need to influence other organisations and service providers to ensure their residents receive services that meet their needs and help them realise their local aspirations. This calls for a different kind of leadership and the LGA’s Next Generation, Leadership Academy and Leeds Castle Leadership programmes help councillors develop the appropriate skills. Good councillors know that residents do not just present public services with problems to be solved, but have the abilities to help find and deliver solutions. Councillors have a track record in developing solutions with local people—not just for them. This has been seen through initiatives such as Hampshire County Council’s person-centred social care services and the current Troubled Families work. The LGA is supporting initiatives such as the national challenge and learning network for the whole place projects to help embed these practices more widely. Councillors will be increasingly called on to play a development role in their communities and neighbourhoods as more local people become involved with service delivery through new provisions such at the Community Right to Challenge and Assets of Community Value. Good councillors have been working with communities for years to include them in service design and delivery and asset management, as is demonstrated in the LGA’s “Doing something Big”5 and “Empowering Communities”6 publications, and the LGA is working with councillors through programmes such as “Keep it REAL: Councils at the heart of their communities” to help spread good practice and raise the capacity of councillors across the country.
3.2 Localising decision-making to divisions, wards and neighbourhoods We are aiming to rebalance power from the centre to localities through mechanisms such as the Localism Act 2011; Local Government Resource Review; National Planning Policy Framework; Health and Wellbeing Boards and others. The LGA believes this necessarily involves a revitalised local democracy that devolves decision-making to the most local level: nearly twice as many people feel they have the potential to make a difference at a local level than do at a national level.7 Greater devolution of decision-making will provide more opportunities for councillors to exercise their strategic leadership and facilitation skills to ensure that local decisions such as Neighbourhood Plans are made with an understanding of the wider needs of the locality as a whole. For example, councils at times face local opposition to economic development that would benefit the area as a whole. Councillors have an important role to play in facilitating conversations between residents, officers, developers and other interested parties to help secure outcomes that will meet local needs and drive local economic growth. Even greater devolution of power to the councillor can demonstrate to people and their communities that they have the potential to make a difference in their localities. 5 Available at http://www.local.gov.uk/web/guest/publications/-/journal_content/56/10161/64956/PUBLICATION-TEMPLATE 6 Available at http://www.local.gov.uk/web/guest/publications/-/journal_content/56/10161/3515617/PUBLICATION-TEMPLATE 7 Hansard’s Audit of Political Engagement 9 http://www.hansardsociety.org.uk/blogs/press_releases/archive/2012/04/25/audit-of- political-engagement-9-part-one.aspx cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Councillors are already well versed in including their residents in local decision-making through a variety of methods, for example: — The London Borough of Lewisham has 18 ward-based assemblies, with over 13,000 people attending meetings between 2008 and 2011. Councillors play a key role in representing community views back to the council and taking on case work arising from issues identified. — Westminster City Council’s councillors each have a budget of £50,000 to spend in their ward as part of the Neighbourhood Funds scheme. This allows councillors to help their residents address local issues and priorities. — South Somerset District Council has run their Community Forums as “Opportunity Events”, using participatory budgeting to increase the number of people who can influence local decision-making. — Newcastle City Council’s “Let’s Talk About Newcastle” events aim to involve local people in a more engaging, accessible and ongoing conversation about council policy decisions. The events have reached four times as many people as would normally respond to a council consultation exercise. — Hertfordshire’s locality budget scheme launched in 2009 gives each elected member of the County Council £10,000 to spend in their division on worthwhile projects in their community that promote social, economic or environmental wellbeing. Applications for funding can be submitted by community groups and organisations. In 2011 this scheme was expanded to allow each local member to allocate £90,000 funding for local highway issues, making a total of £100,000 each—in total £7.7 million not controlled by the Cabinet.
The LGA supports councillors to find and share examples of good practice including through our online Knowledge Hub and Leadership Academy programmes, helping to improve the capacity of councillors to support local decision-making in their wards, divisions, and neighbourhoods.
New ways of working such as Neighbourhood Budgets can make leadership of place contested space for councillors as traditional power relationships shift to a more complex, influence-based model. We believe councillors should be at the heart of Neighbourhood Budgets.
The new provisions in the Localism Act 2011 for councils to apply to the Secretary of State to take on other local public functions has the potential to see more powers transferred to locally democratically-elected representatives. This will increase the accountability to local people and further strengthen councillors’ relationships with and responsibilities to their divisions, wards and neighbourhoods.
3.3 Strategic leadership, governance and responsibility
Since the Lyons report there has been an increasing recognition that the core challenge for councillors is leadership of place. Councillors have a unique knowledge of their area because they are elected to represent a specific place. Most public services, whilst geographically located, address specific needs and are delivered in specific ways. Councillors, with their focus on both their ward/division and the wider local authority on which they serve, are able to focus how those services impact on citizens and communities. The councillor’s expertise will be their local community and local place. At the same time, some councillors will be able to utilise personal professional expertise in a way that serves their community effectively but that does not necessarily result in as great a ward focus as their colleagues. As part of a team, councils should be able to ensure all councillors’ skills and knowledge are used to serve the local community.
Councillors can also help lead and mediate conversations in communities about how a place might evolve. The key agendas facing communities, such as public safety or a healthy local economy, are not the domain of any single public service. Councillors can use their democratic mandate to bring together both public and private agencies with local people to see how best to meet those challenges. That role operates both at a very local level (“cabinet member for your ward”), but also more strategically across the whole authority—and increasingly on many agendas across a group of authorities.
Leadership beyond place and local authority boundaries is something that councillors now have a stronger focus on as we look to local economic regeneration issues that cannot be contained to a single authority. Councils have a long and honourable tradition of driving economic growth in their localities. While the institutional landscape has changed recently with the emergence of local enterprise partnerships (LEPs), councils remain key to growth, as evidenced in our Local Growth Campaign launched last year.8
A key theme for the LGA this year is adult social care—an area that highlights how councillors can dramatically impact people’s lives and future generations both in their place and also through national policy debate. With recognition of this strategic role, people and communities will see the impact they can have on the way public services are delivered and on their local community as a whole. 8 More information is available at http://www.local.gov.uk/web/10161/topic-economy/-/journal_content/56/10161/2899620/ ARTICLE-TEMPLATE cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Councillors who take on these strategic roles will necessarily have less time to dedicate to their ward work— again the team dynamic will impact where councillors can support each other to make sure that the strategic and local needs are met by the team as a whole. The LGA works with the Centre for Public Scrutiny, which leads on the issues of scrutiny and overview. For a fuller examination of issues, please see: http://www.cfps.org.uk/
4. The Recruitment and Diversity of Councillors The benefits of representative democracy are not solely achieved through demographic diversity. Local government benefits from councillors’ life experiences that reflect the experiences of the local community. At a time when councils are being asked to work in new and innovative ways, councillors can offer a fresh insight into the challenges facing councils. That resource of experience and knowledge should not be overlooked. There is no one-size-fits-all councillor and each will bring their own expertise to best serve their community. Whether it is from voluntary work or through skills from their working life—which are increasingly from a professional, managerial and private sector background—the value that this extra expertise and experience can give should not be underestimated.
4.1 Recruitment 93% of councillors in England represent one of the three main political parties—this means that we must have an understanding of those political processes to understand issues around recruitment. The different parties have their own methods for encouraging people to stand, selecting candidates, as well as supporting their members and colleagues. These processes will reflect the parties’ values and principles and will often also have local elements to reflect local needs and challenges. There are also a substantial number of independent councillors or councillors who stand for a smaller political party. Standing as an independent has its own strengths but carries additional challenges—both in terms of campaigning as well as after being elected where these councillors cannot draw on the support of a party process, but look to the various independent networks in existence to support them in developing their role.
4.2 Barriers Information about what discourages people from standing is anecdotal—fundamentally it is difficult to consult people about a decision that they did not make. However, we can draw out three areas for discussion:
4.2.1 The practical barriers Councillors spend, on average, 23 hours per week on council/political business, with eight % spending more than 40 hours a week. Yet for the majority of councillors this is a voluntary role, with no salary but with basic expenses covered, and some allowances for time spent in council meetings. This means it is not an alternative to full time work and those with family or voluntary commitments for example have to balance competing demands on their time. Travel and the timing of council meetings are also often cited as barriers. The LGA feels that councils should resolve this individually as it is for each council to decide the best way to work with councillors regarding council meetings. However, we can see a greater role for councillors outside the council offices and within their communities.
4.2.2 Public opinion towards politics We are currently facing a crisis of public confidence in politics and politicians, but effective political leadership is at the heart of effective democracy. The LGA has a range of political leadership support offers for councillors to support them to be confident politicians and to be able to be champions for the sector as well as for political leadership. We are committed to supporting and developing the councillors on whose shoulders this rests. Councillors are crucial to our shared vision for local government. We need to ensure our members are bold and ambitious leaders: reinvigorating local governance, ensuring strong democratic accountability, supporting local government to make a difference, deliver and be trusted.
4.2.3 Public knowledge of local government Awareness of local government generally varies by place, but local government is often thought to have an important effect on people’s lives; public awareness of local councils is above that of many other political institutions. On the other hand, there is disparate awareness of various types of councils and the services they run. Similarly, councillors are considered to have an important role in local public services, but few people say they know much about what they do and fewer still have actually met a councillor. Public knowledge of local government and the role of local politicians is patchy at best. It is understandable then that many people have never considered being a councillor simply because they do not know much (if anything) about the role. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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4.3 “Be a Councillor” campaign9 The LGA believes that increasing the pool of talent from which councillors are elected is a key challenge for local government. Only by encouraging the brightest stars to stand for election can we ensure that councils are able to do the best for their communities. We need plenty of high-quality prospective councillors ready and willing to work hard and make a difference to their local communities. The LGA is encouraging everyone to play their part in “talent spotting”—actively looking out for committed, enthusiastic people who could make great councillors. We have been working with councillors, those involved in the formal selection process, and also active party members keen to initiate change. They all have an important role to play. There has been a considerable amount of work with the political parties to find ways to encourage more people from a range of backgrounds to stand to be councillors in ways that reflect the parties’ values and traditions. To raise public awareness the LGA has produced a free toolkit of materials for councils to use, or edit to fit their local campaigns. Ultimately, it is the electorate that decides who becomes a councillor, but we can all help to raise the quality of the candidates they choose from.
5. Skills, Development and Support for Councillors 5.1 Skills There is no formal qualification or skill requirement to be a councillor. Councils need councillors who not only reflect and represent the communities they serve, but also have a broad range of skills and life experience. This doesn’t mean councillors need to be highly educated or have a profession. Skills gained through raising a family, caring for a sick or disabled relative, volunteering or being active in faith or community groups can be equally valuable. Where councillors have specialist expertise, they will be able to utilise their skills in a way that best serves their communities. Councils require team work so that councillors can deploy their skills in the areas that need them.
5.2 Support and development 91.3% of councillors responding to the councillors’ census had been in receipt of one or more training and development opportunities in the last 12 months. All councils provide training for councillors. There is however a challenge for councils to ensure that their local development offer adequately supports the evolving role of councillors.
5.2.1 The LGA offer The LGA believes that: — councils are responsible for their own performance; — developing stronger accountability drives further improvement; and — councils have a collective responsibility for performance. The LGA has a range of support for councils; the “LGA Offer” to councils. More details of this support can be found in appendix one.
5.2.2 Support The amount of support councillors receive will vary across councils and also depends on the councillor’s roles and responsibilities. Councils are best placed to decide their local needs. There are over 20,000 councillors in England and so the desire to support them to reach the best potential for their communities must be balanced by practical and financial constraints. For example in the councillors’ census, from a list of eight resources or learning opportunities, councillors ranked highest IT support (21%) and administrative support (20.5%). As the councillor role becomes ever more challenging and demanding, the need for support will likely rise. If we are to see people from all walks of life becoming councillors then this support offer will need to adapt in response.
Conclusion Local politicians have the potential to understand, enthuse and lead their communities. They have the potential to join together the public sector in a place and link it to those who need it most, and to have an impact on people’s lives from the hyper-local to national level of delivery and policy making. The process is self-reinforcing: with greater devolution of power to councils and an understanding of the difference councillors can make using these powers, more people will want to become involved in the councillor role. 9 http://www.local.gov.uk/be-a-councillor cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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We need to improve the recruitment of councillors, use their time and skills better and to support them better—these are mutually supportive elements to reinvigorating local politics. Only through this will we be able to sustain a local political system that represents the communities it serves and that can allow people to meet their aspirations for themselves and their places.
APPENDIX ONE THE “LGA OFFER” 1. Provision of a peer challenge, free of charge, over the three year period. 2. Five days of free member peer support for all authorities undergoing a change of political control. 3. Development of the Knowledge Hub, a cross public sector resource to enable people to work together and share experiences. 4. Development of the LG Inform service to allow benchmarking and comparisons with others. 5. Provision of one subsidised place on our Leadership Academy for every council for each of the next three years and one fully funded place for district councils which have had a change of political control. 6. Work with councils to develop local accountability tools and support from Centre for Public Scrutiny. 7. Support networks for elected members and officers at national and sub-national level. 8. Encouraging the sharing of best practice through a large number of other ways, including but not limited to, regular email updates, workshops, Knowledge Hub groups and relevant meetings for Leaders and Chief Executives. To promote councillor training and development, the LGA also has developed the Political Skills Framework which councils and individual councillors use to help identify their training needs. The LGA also promotes the Member Development Charter: these regionally based awards are made to councils that meet set criteria in terms of their approach to, and provision of, councillor development. Over 220 councils of all types are signed up to the Charter and 128 currently hold the Charter award. May 2012
Written evidence from Hertfordshire County Council (CC 12) Summary Hertfordshire County Council’s vision of localism seeks to position councillors as an indispensable resource within active communities. Whilst central decision-making will inevitably have to persist for some issues the ambition of a localist council has to be to maximise the range of areas in which local people can have a real say in local decisions. The councillor will be critical in working with the communities to identify exactly what those needs are. This requires councillors to forego the pretension of “leading” their communities for a more subtle role of facilitating, mediating and advocating in communities who in turn make their own decisions and evolve their own leadership to solve problems for themselves. Such an approach presents a real challenge that applies equally to those recruiting councillors, to the way in which councillors are supported and to the councillors themselves.
The Role of Councillor as Leaders of Communities and Neighbourhood Effective councillors have always played a key role in their communities, engaging with residents, and communicating their opinions to the Council. Prior to the emergence of the “Big Society” agenda, Hertfordshire County Council developed a commitment to giving local people more say and control over local services under the title Hertfordshire Local. The current drive towards localism has reinforced this. Our vision of localism is built on active, participative democracy with active involvement of individuals, rather than a localising of power within traditional structures of representative democracy. Although returning power to the people may seem to reduce councillors’ roles, the Council believes that it in fact puts them at the heart of the community. True localism therefore enhances the role of every councillor within their community. Our stated vision is “to shift power from the state (in the form of the County Council and its local partners) to individuals and families, both personally and also in geographic localities in which they live. It seeks to position councillors as an indispensable resource within active communities. It aims to ensure that residents are suitably informed to allow them to influence and shape local services and take a more active part in helping them help themselves.” Therefore, one of the most welcome impacts of localism is to enhance the role of every front-line councillor. For too long—and too frequently—most council decisions have been taken authority-wide, with little scope for local variation. Inevitably, central decision-making will have to persist for some issues, but the ambition of a localist council has to be to maximise the range and significance of decisions where local flexibility of outcome can be allowed—and encouraged—and to develop processes that give local people a real say in local cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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decisions. The councillor will be critical in working with the communities to identify exactly what those needs are. It will also mean that councillors will have to forego the pretension of “leading” their communities for a more subtle role of facilitating, mediating and advocating in communities who make their own decisions and evolve their own leadership. There will be a new relationship between councillors and the people they serve: Councillors will be community “activists”, one among equals, (perhaps, even a first among equals) but helping and encouraging respective “little societies” and individuals within their area. An effective councillor will not see their role as being confined to the service responsibilities of the council. Rather, they will see it as extending it to anything and everything that impacts on the wellbeing of their communities, further aided by strong knowledge of the needs of their local area and services provided there. Councillors must become an indispensable resource at the heart of active and connected communities, using collaborative and facilitative approaches to broker solutions to local issues. They will then become part of the social activism that binds local people together; their contacts, networks and access to resources enabling them to help communities secure their aspirations for their local area.
Recruitment and Diversity of Councillors If front-line councillors are to be able to fulfil this wider and more demanding role, it will be of great importance that those who select candidates on behalf of political parties understand the expectations and accountabilities of those they hope to see elected. Whilst there is often a wide range of training available for councillors, time spent identifying the right candidates will pay dividends for the community (and the party). Recruiters and selectors need to be looking for people with the right mix of softer, interpersonal skills needed to be successful as social activists as well as having the drive to maintain a high profile in their communities and the strength to be held personally accountable.
Skills, Training and Support for Councillors For those who are elected, the programme of member development offered by councils will have to be broadened to develop not just knowledge of the council’s business and procedures, but the skills councillors will need locally. In order to make Hertfordshire County Council’s vision of localism a reality, member training has been re-examined to explore this changing role. Communication and consultation skills and techniques needed to engage with their local communities are being emphasised to enable councillors to be successful as social activists. Councils will also have to change the way officers do business by assisting councillors in their localist role and allowing residents to engage effectively and influence outcomes. This will require front-line staff to recognise the legitimacy of differing local perspectives about their services; to identify which elements of service delivery can be varied locally; and to offer choices tailored to meet the needs of local communities and the views of the residents. It also leaves space to be clear that some decisions remain strategic and must remain with the council’s traditional decision-making processes. Our ambition is to maximise the range and significance of decisions where local flexibility of outcome can be allowed—and encouraged. So we are developing processes that give local people a real say in local decisions. Critical in this will be the sharing of information. Most councils publish a wealth of information but too often it is authority-wide, hard to access and understand. Where decisions are ripe for local variation information will have to be given which is relevant to the locality and will enable councillors, and the public, to engage with it and influence it at a meaningful level. Councillors are at the heart of these new processes. Their role is to ensure relevant information is shared with residents to help them gain a realistic understanding of the options available and help them make considered and representative choices. Wherever the legal decision is made, it must fall to the local councillor generally to advocate the community’s view—even if the councillor would have taken a different view. For some councils and officers, this will present a considerable challenge. But true localism will develop only if the required changes in both attitude and behaviour are understood by the whole organisation and driven from the top by both Leader and Chief Executive. With the next County Council elections taking place in 2013, Hertfordshire is already gearing up to induct a new set of councillors. Whilst it is hoped that the selection process will identify strong and motivated candidates the training and support offer will be designed to support councillors in delivering this new role. The County Council is currently testing out training supporting grass-roots community activism with an event entitled “Enhancing councillors’ role as an ‘Indispensable Community Activist’” taking place in June 2012. Furthermore, in recognition of the common expectations of councillors within all tiers of local government, this training is being offered to district councillors.
The Practicalities of Being a Councillor The requirements of being a councillor will only increase with these heightened expectations. The challenge for candidate selection is however “selling” the role to individuals who fit the new job description. The burden of time spent on delivering the work of a front-line councillor, particularly at a top-tier authority where the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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meetings and business are mainly conducted during the day, are significant. Anecdotal evidence suggests that councillors can easily spend 23-days per week on council business. If councils are to be able to attract a wider range of individuals then remuneration and the attitude of employers to councillor duties need to be fundamentally addressed.
Localising Decision Making to Divisions, Wards and Neighbourhoods Inevitably, central decision-making will have to persist for some issues, but the ambition of a localist council has to be to maximise the range and significance of decisions where local flexibility of outcome can be allowed—and encouraged—and to develop processes that give local people a real say in local decisions. Many councils have already made budgets available to local councillors to spend as they see fit in their patches. In Hertfordshire, county councillors are each been allocated £100,000 a year to spend in their communities. £10,000 is given as part of the Members’ Locality Budget Scheme, and £90,000 is given through the Highways Locality Budget Scheme. With the Members’ Locality Budget Scheme, councillors are able to use the £10,000 to support local projects supporting economic, social and environmental well being. Applications are invited from community groups and local organisations, and a decision is made by the local councillor as to who the money should be given to. These decisions are shown on the councillor’s web pages. The Highways Locality Budget Scheme has been extended county-wide following pilots in two districts. £90,000 of local road maintenance budgets has been devolved to individual members for local determination. Councillors are expected to consult with district, town and parish councillors as well as residents and community groups and their decisions are posted online, to ensure more direct accountability. The scheme allows local influence without compromising the county council’s ability to make and support strategic road maintenance programmes. While, at law, these decision about where to spend this money remains with the council, the recommendation of the local councillor is invariably accepted. Both schemes require councillors to engage more actively with local residents, although this is without prescription, leaving the methods down to individuals to decide. Councillors have developed different solutions reflecting their local areas, for example, taking into account parished/unparished areas, or using existing community networks. In all cases the schemes provide real opportunities to begin a dialogue with the community which will form a foundation for the future.
Two Tier Working The final point to be addressed relates to the nature of Hertfordshire as a two-tier area. The Council’s cabinet portfolio holder for localism has set up a localism network, involving localism champions nominated from district councils across Hertfordshire. This group has been exploring the common ground that exists within the interpretation of localism that varies from authority to authority. One particular area of common ground relates to the role of councillors. Indeed the mandate of elected councillors as community advocates and activists resonates very strongly across all authorities. There is mutual interest in getting the right candidates and whilst the requirements (in terms of time) are relatively less for a district councillor the expectation about how they behave is shared. Councillors will share problems and help residents navigate the system to ensure they find solutions whether sponsored by county, district or by helping communities to help themselves. The County Council would be more than happy to take up an opportunity to present more information on any of the aspects identified in this submission should the committee consider it would be useful. May 2012
Written evidence from Liz Richardson, University of Manchester (CC 13) Executive Summary — The submission is based on a range of innovative and robust pieces of research in the previous five years. — For every barrier and problem identified in this submission, there are also “little gems” of merging good practice which are starting to tackle these issues. — Many elected members find it hard to play stronger community leadership roles. Members need more help to “say no” and challenge the community. — Members underestimate the degree of honesty and openness that the public will accept; residents appreciate honesty from councillors. — Current models of community leadership also mistakenly assume that community preferences are fixed. There is potential for members to deliberate with citizens to change or adapt public opinion. — Local authorities (officers) could play a bigger role in recruiting a more diverse pool of candidates through marketing and promotional work. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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— Skills, training and support for councillors is reinforced by assessing the benefits to the community of investment in member development—answering the “so what?” question—and celebrating success. — Localising decision making to divisions, wards and neighbourhoods can be managed in ways which promote inclusion. — Accusation and perceptions of “pork barrel politics” are being addressed by agreeing resource allocation criteria jointly with communities, and making the criteria for allocation more transparent. — Sharing power presents a challenge where councillors see power as a “zero-sum” rather than a “positive-sum” game. — Oversight, facilitation and accountability needs better ways to manage risk, and share rewards with communities. Current ways of assessing risk levels are too often biased towards the worse-case scenario, and often do not take account in a more rounded way of the true costs, benefits and risks for neighbourhoods. — Some councils are doing creative risk management. — There is a major role for Scrutiny in maintaining accountability where services and responsibilities are spread to a wide range of partner and organisations.
Main Messages These arguments are based on a range of innovative and robust pieces of research in the previous five years This submission is based on six pieces of research conducted between 2007 and 2012. This ranges from a highly innovative “self-evaluation” project where local councillors from over 30 local government organisations conducted their own research with support from the author, to “gold standard” evaluation using Randomized Controlled Trials with community groups, and local elected members. Details of publications for the research are given at the end of this submission. The main messages and policy implications are synthesised and summarised into plain English, under the relevant topics given for the Inquiry.
The role of councillors as leaders of communities and neighbourhoods could be made much stronger There are good examples of where councillors have successfully played stronger community leadership roles, particularly in brokering difficult resource decisions and tensions between sections of communities. Lessons from where this has happened are: — Difficult or controversial issues need to be challenged head-on, using tried and tested techniques, eg mediation; — Residents appreciate local councillors being honest about what is possible, or acceptable; — Councillors sometimes need to resist demands from minority interest groups for special treatment, regardless of the electoral consequences; — Councillors can help to mobilise the community to respond to critical situations, with support from community networks such as faith organisations, voluntary groups, women’s groups, and community elders; and — Member learning & development helps elected members play a vital and strong community leadership role. However, many elected members find it hard to play these roles. Often, they are unwilling because they see these as vote losing activities. This is a challenge that goes beyond simply developing members’ skills in community engagement. Members underestimate the degree of honesty and openness that the public will accept. Current models of community leadership also mistakenly assume that community preferences are fixed, and the role of members is to either accommodate to opinion or go against it. It is partly true that members’ are more likely to feel their role is to make the ultimate decision and communicate this to citizens; whereas citizens are more likely to feel councillors should agree with their views. One result of this difference in views is low levels of responsiveness to organised interest groups in the community, which means the potential for positive collaborative working between councillors and the community is not maximised. There are limited understandings of members’ potential roles in deliberating with citizens to change or adapt public opinion, although there are isolated examples of where deliberative-style approaches have been used, and worked (including South Lakeland DC and Rossendale BC). One practical issue is the need for more effective back-up systems and information flows from officers to elected members. In some councils like Bradford MDC, neighbourhood workers provide a conduit for getting information to members. Some councils such as Newcastle CC have also given councillors access to real-time electronic systems that track the progress of queries or jobs through the council system. This means councillors can be more effective at getting things done, chasing outstanding issues, and updating residents about progress. But at the other end of the extreme, members’ ability to prioritise responding to communities is undermined by a high volume of irrelevant correspondence from officers. Some members’ feel this is driven by officers “back covering”. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Recruitment and diversity of councillors—and the implications for representation and local democracy There is already a body of work which makes recommendations for increasing the diversity of representation eg positive discrimination; active recruitment by parties, changes to allowances and childcare, times of meetings, time off from employers etc. Alongside this, one area for development is the role of local authorities in recruiting potential candidates. There is already a high level of activity by councils to support local democracy eg Democracy Weeks etc. In recent years, there have also been tentative moves towards active “marketing” of becoming a councillor by councils, although these have suffered from a reluctance to talk about the roles for political parties. Despite all of this, there are still strong underlying objections by officers in authorities to intervening in recruitment which hinder more extensive promotional work. The Duty to Promote Democracy made strides in this direction before it was repealed.
Skills, training and support for councillors is reinforced by assessing its community impacts and celebrating success There has been significant progress on member learning and development in the last decade. Indications are that authorities are trying to protect investment in member development in the current financial settlement. However, investment in member learning and development is vulnerable to being seen as a luxury extra in hard times. There needs to be demonstrable outcomes for communities from member development for it to be valued and sustained. Elected members must also be directly involved in assessing community benefit of learning and training for them to find any evidence credible. The North West Member Development Charter (and variations such as “Charter Plus” in other regions) offers a self-evaluation framework which accredits local government organisations for their learning and development. Accreditation is based on proof of the community impact of investment in skills development and learning. It answers the “so what” question. The standards for proof are at “academic” levels, and the evidence collection is overseen and delivered by councillors. An annual North West Celebration Event, organised by the Regional employers’ Organisation, rewards those authorities which have been awarded the Charter. Examples include cost savings made by Scrutiny in Wyre BC as the result of an intensive member development process. Another example was improved relationships and renewed faith in local members from a previously hostile and angry community in a housing market renewal area in Hyndburn BC.
Localising decision making to divisions, wards and neighbourhoods can be managed in ways which promote inclusion There are polarised views on localising decision-making. The worst case scenario is that decentralisation or devolution runs the risks that: neighbourhood interests are prioritised at the expense of wider area needs; unhealthy competition between places and groups is exacerbated; community tensions worsen; and strategic interests are undermined. However, the research used in this submission suggests that how far devolution leads to greater inclusion within and between neighbourhoods depends on facilitation, deliberation, brokering, and greater transparency. There are examples of positive outcomes from greater transparency, eg participatory budgeting and Neighbourhood Agreements across the country, work in Chorley, and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation “Working in Neighbourhoods” Network in Bradford. There is one key issue that is currently being avoided by many elected members and local authorities. When localised decisions are made by politically-controlled structures, they have been perceived by communities as politically biased and unfair. Perceptions of fairness (however this is defined) has been shown to affect other citizen attitudes including satisfaction with councils. Accusations of what the Americans call “pork barrel politics” (where politicians use their control over the allocation of resources to favour their own interests) are made by citizens more frequently than is commonly admitted or addressed by councillors. Some councils are starting to address this by agreeing resource allocation criteria jointly with communities, and making the criteria for allocation more transparent. There are emerging examples such as in Tameside MBC, where there was a significant shift in how members saw their role, resulting in sharing power with communities. But sharing power presents a challenge where councillors see power as a “zero-sum” rather than a “positive-sum” game.
Oversight, facilitation and accountability needs better ways to manage risk, and share rewards with communities Localising decisions and encouraging more community contributions can mean transferring more control to communities. This spreads accountability in new ways, and demands different methods of oversight and facilitation than can be used when activities are in authorities’ direct control. It is understandable that local councils and their elected members are cautious about transferring power to communities and neighbourhoods where they feel this would present a high level of risk. The local authority and its members have overall responsibility, and are answerable to citizens. Responses to this are too often to avoid risk, or even more narrowly to avoid legal liabilities. Across local councils, current ways of assessing risk levels are too often biased towards the worse-case scenario, and often do not take account in a more rounded way of the true costs, benefits and risks for neighbourhoods. However, some councils are also starting to create scope for more community action by creatively managing risk, for example through “Community PQQs”, and other approaches which could be spread further. Where accountability for services and community outcomes is shared with other partners, such as commissioned third sector organisations, or other public sector bodies, there are also some cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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innovations taking place where members are getting more effective at “being in charge when you’re not in charge”. There is a major role here for Scrutiny. May 2012
Publications Referred to in this Submission Cotterill, S and Richardson, L (2011). Inspiring Democracy: community anchors and councillors, University of Manchester: Manchester Evans, E, Gains, F, Goodwin M, John, J, Rao, N and Richardson, L (2007). Improving The Representativeness Of Councillors: learning from five high performing local authorities in England, CLG: London John, P, Cotterill, S, Moseley, A, Richardson, L, Smith, G, Stoker, G, and Wales, C (2011). Nudge, nudge, think, think: experimenting with ways to change civic behaviour, Bloomsbury Academic: London North West Employers’ Organisation (NWEO) (2008). North West Charter Level Two on Elected Member Development: A toolkit about demonstrating community impact, NWEO: Manchester Richardson, L (2012). Working in neighbourhoods, active citizenship and localism: lesson for policy makers and practitioners, JRF: York Richardson, L and John, P (2012). “Who listens to the grassroots? A field experiment on informational lobbying in the UK”, British Journal of Politics and International Relations
Written evidence from the Centre for Public Scrutiny (CfPS) (CC 14) Introduction The Centre for Public Scrutiny (CfPS), an independent charity, is the leading national organisation for ideas, thinking and the application and development of policy and practice to promote transparent, inclusive and accountable public services. We support individuals, organisations and communities to put our principles into practice in the design, delivery and monitoring of public services in ways that build knowledge, skills and trust so that effective solutions are identified together by decision-makers, practitioners and service users. The Centre for Public Scrutiny is part-funded through a grant from the LGA to support and develop the overview and scrutiny functions of local authorities in England; we also work with local authorities in Wales in partnership with the Welsh Local Government Association. We are submitting evidence to the Committee on the following points: — Oversight, facilitation and accountability: — Councillors’ general scrutiny role; — The role of politics; — The developing role of scrutiny relating to partnerships; — The developing role of scrutiny relating to sector self-regulation; and — Links with councillors’ wider community leadership role. — Strategic governance, leadership and responsibilities: — The role of the backbench councillor in strategic governance and leadership; and — Relationships between scrutiny and the executive.
Oversight, Facilitation and Accountability Councillors’ general scrutiny role Councillors’ role in oversight and accountability has developed strongly since the introduction of the executive/scrutiny split through the Local Government Act 2000. Prior to this time, debate and dialogue on council policies was carried out in service committees, where decision was generally reached, following debate and discussion, through public votes. Decisions are now made by Cabinet (collectively) and by individual cabinet members. Scrutiny’s role traditionally focuses backbench councillors on holding those cabinet members to account, although a substantial number of local authorities, and local councillors, view their scrutiny role as playing a part in policy development. In this role, the responsibilities of scrutiny functions in local authorities broadly reflect the “core tasks” agreed for Parliamentary Select Committees in 2002. Most councillors in county, unitary and district councils are scrutiny councillors, but their scrutiny role is often neglected or forgotten. One of a regular series of surveys that we have carried out10 demonstrates that while 63% of councillors felt that scrutiny adds “a lot” or “a great deal” to the work of the authority, 45% of councillors still felt that their authority gave “a little” or “very little” value to the role that scrutiny carries out. This is reflected in anecdotal evidence that we have gathered through conversations with senior officers and 10 “2010 Annual Survey of Overview and Scrutiny in Local Government” (CfPS, 2011) cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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cabinet members, who while often keen to talk in general terms about the value and benefits of scrutiny, are unwilling to act in a way that supports those views. This is worrying, because it suggests in some authorities a culture of governance that does not recognise the vital role that scrutiny can play in two key areas—engaging with partners, and involvement with sector self regulation, both of which we discuss in the sections below. Both of these are areas where scrutiny’s powers and opportunities derive directly from the fact that the function is member led, relying on the unique perspective and independent-minded nature of backbench councillors: Scrutiny councillors can carry out these roles in a variety of ways—by sitting in committee, or by carrying out work in “task and finish” groups. The inherent flexibility of scrutiny allows a huge amount of leeway to members to carry out work in the manner that they see fit. Again, however, we are concerned that in some councils, attempts have been made to compartmentalise scrutiny, and to treat it as a function of limited nature and value, with a role only (for example) in reviewing forthcoming cabinet-level decisions, or in reviewing the implementation of recent cabinet decisions. Independent scrutiny investigation of wide-ranging issues is seen by some as “pointless”—work that will never lead anywhere or accomplish anything of value. In some instances this is true, but the blame for such failure rests equally with those on the executive whose closed attitude to scrutiny is such that its recommendations, however forcefully expressed, could never result in real change. This is a wider corporate governance issue, not necessarily a failing of the scrutiny function itself.
The role of politics Scrutiny is often said to be an apolitical function. There has been detailed research carried out on the role of politics in the scrutiny process.11 There is, we feel, a distinction between the use of scrutiny as a forum for party political discussions—which we, along with other commentators, believe is inappropriate—and the use by scrutiny councillors of their political skills in scrutiny, recognising that those skills give them a unique perspective that enhances their role. Empowering members to work effectively on scrutiny should be about recognising and building on their existing skills and experience, rather than making the assumption that “apolitical” behaviour means the same as “behaving like an officer”. Scrutiny is, and should be, member-led. In being member-led, it brings something different and unique to the improvement process within the authority, and the area at large.
The developing role of scrutiny relating to partnerships It is important to recognise the distinction between the “scrutiny of partners” or the “scrutiny of partnerships”, and the involvement of partners in the scrutiny of issues affecting local people. The latter presents the most effective way to carry out scrutiny, and provides the most significant opportunity for backbench councillors to engage productively in this work. Decision-making in local government is becoming increasingly fragmented and diffuse. A range of different groups and organisations are responsible for delivering public services in local areas. Councils are only one of these. Increasingly, decisions are made at partnership level with little oversight, or transparency.12 Scrutiny has a role in recognising cross-cutting issues, delivered by a range of partners, to which it can add value by shedding light on decisions and the policy development process, and making recommendations accordingly. In doing this, councillors may want to work together with others involved in local accountability. This reflects the existence of what we have termed a “web of accountability” at local level, a concept that we consider will be increasingly important as decision-making becomes more partnership-based, moves which will need to be reflected in local accountability.13 It presents a significant challenge, but a substantial opportunity, to local councillors, who could see their reach and influence increase as a result.
The developing role of scrutiny relating to sector self-regulation The Audit Commission is being abolished, and central inspection systems such as the Comprehensive Area Assessment have been dismantled. Central Government has made it clear that managing performance, and bringing about improvement, will be a matter for individual councils, and for the sector at large. The LGA’s “Taking the Lead” policy recognises the role that scrutiny can play in this picture of sector self-regulation. In many councils, scrutiny has taken an active role in oversight of performance issues, challenging the implementation of policy and seeking to develop a culture of continuous improvement. We discussed the role of scrutiny in driving improvement in a publication produced in 2010.14 This, and other research,15 has suggested that through scrutiny, backbench members can have a significant impact by identifying potential causes for concern in the local area which relate to poor performance, and suggesting means of tackling them. This puts members at the centre of an improvement process which some perceive as 11 Ewbank M, “The operation of political parties since the separation of power in English local government” (Doctoral thesis, University of Birmingham, 2010); see also Leach S, “Party politics and scrutiny in local government: clearing the hurdles” (CfPS, 2009) 12 “Between a rock and a hard place” (CfPS, 2010), “Policy Briefing 9: The Big Society”, “Policy Briefing 10: shared services and commissioning” (both CfPS, 2012) 13 “Accountability Works” (CfPS, 2010) 14 “Green Light” (CfPS, 2010) 15 “A cunning plan” (CfPS, 2011), “On the money” (CfPS, 2nd edition 2011) cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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being an “officer issue”, or something that it technocratic where non-cabinet members cannot feasibly have much of an impact.
Links with councillors’ wider community leadership role As a variety of powers (such as the community right to bid, the community right to challenge, and powers on neighbourhood planning) are devolved to local level, there are opportunities for councillors’ scrutiny role to be more closely linked with their community leadership role,16 to ensure that the council and its partners are fully attuned to the needs and aspirations of local people. Issues causing particular concern to certain areas can already be raised at overview and scrutiny committee using the (admittedly little-used) Councillor Call for Action procedures.17 We believe that councillors can have a role in “mediating”, as democratic representatives, the interests and aspirations of local people, acting as advocates for their communities within the council.18 This has always been a role for councillors but in many councils, the systems do not necessarily exist to translate opinions expressed in local areas into concerted action at authority level. This relates directly to the increased trend for councils to think more seriously about the “community intelligence” that they have at their disposal, with the aim of developing greater “customer insight”19 and, by so doing, deliver services more efficiently, economically and effectively. Equally, councillors themselves can capitalise on their unique community knowledge by bringing it to bear in the scrutiny work they carry out. This has the potential to provide a unique perspective to their investigations, making it more likely that they will be able to develop novel solutions that might not have been apparent to others (particularly officers).
Strategic Governance, Leadership and Responsibilities The role of the backbench councillor in strategic governance and leadership We have touched above on the input that backbench councillors can make on strategic governance and leadership. Often the leadership role is considered to be limited to Cabinet members, but backbench members, through carrying out high quality scrutiny work that makes an impact on council and partner policies, can succeed in influencing that strategic direction. In terms of strategic governance, scrutiny’s role is less apparent. Councils have tended in the past to look to audit, governance through management processes and central inspection as the key drivers in strategic governance.20 While scrutiny has not necessarily been a bolt-on afterthought, it is often not treated as an integral element in governance as opposed to (for example) audit. For this reason, scrutiny can often find itself duplicating work being carried out elsewhere, or finding it difficult to engage with corporate processes whose timescales might be unreasonable or opaque.21 This can make it difficult for scrutiny councillors to feel that they have a stake in strategic governance, particular when their involvement through other means are often limited to debates at Full Council. We consider that embedding scrutiny more meaningfully in strategic governance and improvement arrangements would enhance the role that scrutiny councillors play in this area. What this means in practice is likely to vary from authority to authority.
Relationships between scrutiny and the executive Some authorities benefit from a positive working relationship between scrutiny and the executive. This does not always relate to political control and the size of majorities.22 More often it reflects positive attitudes derived from good work. When scrutiny is able to demonstrate its value by carrying out proportionate, timely and relevant work, which is useful in improving services, executives will be more inclined to develop a positive approach to working with it. Conversely, in authorities where such relationships do not exist, it can be difficult to improve things. An approach of evolution—carrying out small pieces of work to build goodwill and change attitudes—rather than revolution can be better in persuading the executive and partners that scrutiny has a role to play. This is necessary because scrutiny’s powers are, in fact, quite limited in scope—while executive members and officers can be compelled to attend committee meetings, there is no compulsion on the executive to implement scrutiny recommendations, which means that scrutiny’s success is bound up with the respect in which it is held in the area at large. In the same way as commentators talk about parity of esteem between select committees and Government at Westminster, we consider that similar principles should apply in local government. 16 “Policy Briefing 14: update on new legislation” (CfPS, 2011) 17 “Action stations: the first six months of CCfA” (CfPS, 2009) 18 “Cabinet member for your ward” (Leadership Centre for Local Government, 2009) 19 “Between a rock and a hard place” (CfPS, 2010) 20 “Accountability Works” (CfPS, 2010) 21 “A cunning plan” (CfPS, 2011) 22 “2010 Annual Survey of Overview and Scrutiny in Local Government” (CfPS, 2011) cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Conclusion The ability for councillors to use scrutiny as a means to influence the authority’s strategic direction is as much down to organisational and political culture as it is an issue relating to the structures and processes supporting the scrutiny function itself. While we have repeatedly said that more legislative powers for scrutiny would be valuable, these can only ever offer a foundation for local areas to build on—as witnessed by the very different way that backbench councillors choose to work on scrutiny. May 2012
Written evidence from the Centre for Women & Democracy (CC 24) Executive Summary ES1. The level of women councillors currently stands at 31%, and has been more or less static for the last 10 years. ES2. Women face a series of barriers to their entering public life; these include economic, social and political factors, many of which were outlined in the Councillors’ Commission Report published in 2007. The Centre for Women & Democracy (CFWD) contributed evidence to this, and whilst we do not agree with all its findings, we believe that they very comprehensively covered most of the issues. ES3. The political parties are the gatekeepers to public office, and the electorate still overwhelmingly votes for candidates from one of the main three parties (94% of councillors elected in 2012 were either Conservative, Labour or Liberal Democrat). The actions of the parties in recruiting and retaining a diverse range of candidates and councillors are therefore of considerable importance. ES4. Women are often interested in local public office, but feel under-qualified for it. Better training and support for both men and women would therefore be an advantage. ES5. Political parties need to examine their selection procedures to ensure that they are fair, open, transparent and effective. They should also take steps to make sure that information on how to become a candidate is freely and easily available. ES6. Women are significantly less likely than men to lead local authorities, or to work on strategic portfolios. As a result women lack role models and do not view local government as an activity which has much relevance to them as determiners, rather than consumers of services (or as payers of taxes). Political parties should therefore take steps to ensure that this is rectified. ES7. The Labour Party has had some success in increasing the numbers of both candidates and councillors by using positive action measures. Similar schemes should be considered by other parties. ES8. Political parties exist to win elections, and whilst all are committed to increasing diversity, none have it as their primary objective. Consideration should be given to the establishment of an independently administered fund to assist parties with their responsibilities in candidate development, and could be lined to diversity requirements. ES9. Currently, the average age of councillors is 60 and rising. As a result it is unattractive to younger people, and it is also harder for new candidates to find seats. Consideration should be given to the introduction of an upper age limit for councillors as there is for magistrates. ES10. The hours and commitments expected of councillors are very high, and not always geared to the needs of people who work or who have caring responsibilities. Councils should give active consideration to their working practices, and, in particular, to the level of “professionalisation” that they are introducing. ES11. Women are often particularly concerned about physical security, especially where they are working alone. Councils should make sure that proper arrangements are in place, and that women are reassured that they will not be put at risk.
Submission 1. The Centre for Women & Democracy 1.1 The Centre for Women & Democracy (CFWD) was established in 2007 to work on and campaign for women’s representation, presence and voice in public decision-making roles, as well as on aspects of democratic practice. We are a non-profit organisation based in Leeds. We have researched and published annual reports on elections and women in leadership roles, as well as studies of issues such as the impact of government legislation and the history of women in politics. We also provide training for women as well as advice to organisations. 1.2 Together with the Electoral Reform Society, the Fawcett Society, Unlock Democracy and the Hansard Society, CFWD is a founder member of the Counting Women In Campaign. 1.3 Our website can be found at www.cfwd.org.uk. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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2. Introduction and Background 2.1 Women’s involvement in local government at various levels pre-dates their access to Parliament by some decades; they were present as Poor Law Guardians from 1869, on School Boards from 1890, on Parish and District Councils from 1894 and on County and County Borough Councils from 1907. 2.2 Traditionally, local government was seen very much as the province of middle and upper class women, with working class women more likely to be active through trade unions or in community-based campaigns. As a result the representation of women on local councils was very variable, with the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats generally more successful than Labour in recruiting and securing the election of women. 2.3 In 2004, Labour introduced positive action measures for the selection of local government candidates, and since then that Party’s ability to secure the election of women has significantly improved. In 2012, 40% of Labour candidates were women, and 40% of Labour councillors elected. 2.4 CFWD’s interim report on the 2012 Local Elections is attached as Appendix A.23 2.5 Despite this, however, the level of women councillors has remained more or less static and currently stands at 31%. The good performance of women candidates in the 2012 local elections does not necessarily feed through into increased numbers of women councillors since in many cases women elected were not additional (eg, where women candidates of one party defeated women candidates of another). 2.6 CFWD’s work on the 2012 elections is ongoing, and, in particular, we are about to start work on retention rates for both men and women councillors, and the reasons for any disparity that there may be. 2.7 The Committee will doubtless be aware of the 2007 Councillors’ Commission Report, which investigated many of the relevant issues and made recommendations for change and improvement. CFWD agreed with many, though not all, of these.
3. Issues and Proposals 3.1 The barriers to women’s participation have been rehearsed many times, and it is not there for proposed to dwell on them at any length here. However, there are some broad areas which bear restating. 3.2 For many women, the need to manage both family commitments and a job is already demanding, and the addition of public life simply makes it impossible. 40% of women and 47% of men councillors are also in employment of one kind or another, whilst 30% of women and 22% of men have caring responsibilities for children or adult relatives.24 The hours that councillors are expected to work, combined with the intrusion into family and personal life that this inevitably produces, are not very attractive for women who already struggle to balance all the various areas of their lives. Many women also find the idea of being “on call” 24 hours a day, combined with personal details such as their homes addresses being public, rather worrying. This is particularly true for women who are living alone, or living alone with children. 3.3 There is a general perception that support for political parties is declining; however, in 2012 94% of councillors elected represented one of the main three political parties, and this is a marginal increase on the outcomes in recent years. The political parties are the gatekeepers to public office at all levels, and they are all are predominantly male in character, particularly at local level. There is ample evidence to demonstrate that women are less likely than men to join political parties, less likely to be active in them, and less likely to stand for public office on their behalf. In addition, whilst local and community-based work is generally seen as appropriate for women, this is less the case for political activity. For instance, only 37% of women identify themselves as being interested in politics (as opposed to 49% of men).25 3.4 It has also often been noted that members of political parties tend to be more socially conservative in their views than the wider electorate in some areas, and that they may have less confidence in the “electability” of women candidates. There is no evidence at all that the electorate does not wish to vote for women or in any way discriminates against them; sadly, some members of all political parties mistakenly believe that women are an electoral liability, and select candidates accordingly. 3.5 It is repeatedly asserted that there are insufficient women wishing to stand as councillors, and that as a result parties are compelled to stand men. This may be true in so far as the supply of candidates generally is concerned—all parties report problems with finding enough candidates, particularly in some types of seat—but it is not as true in relation to women as is sometimes suggested. The experience of both the Labour Party, the Green Party and the Liberal Democrats, (who this year fielded 41%, 36% and 34% women candidates respectively) suggest that where there is an awareness of the issues women candidates can be found, and, in the case of the Labour Party, that where there is an element of compulsion that task becomes cumulatively less problematic. This issue will be expanded upon further below. 3.6 It should be noted that, although women are, as we have seen, less likely to be involved in politics generally, the numbers of both candidates and councillors that are being sought, fielded or elected at any one time are minute compared to the general population. 23 Page 12 onwards of this document. 24 LGA Census of Local Councillors 2010 25 Hansard Audit of Political Engagement 2012 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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3.7 From time to time various solutions to the problem of the lack of women councillors have been proposed. Many of these were included in the Councillors’ Commission Report, and although some are more practicable (in political as well as other terms) than others, they are all worthy of consideration.
3.8 CFWD made an extensive submission to that inquiry, and our views have not changed in any substantive way since. The paragraphs below therefore reflect the views included in our remarks to the Commission five years ago.
3.9 Although all three parties are keen at national level to see the number of women representing them increase, they have failed to convince members at a local level that women candidates are as likely to be successful as men, and, given the resistance and resentment that attempts to influence or control local selections can provoke, parties nationally are reluctant to force the issue beyond a certain point. This is despite the fact that most grassroots members of all parties would consider themselves to be fair-minded—and often are—and relatively few would say that they are actively against diversity. However, there is an incontrovertible gap between theory and practice, and even for the Labour Party, which has been most successful in getting women selected and elected through their positive action process, far too many wards exists for which all the councillors are male.
3.10 It is also the case that some people who agree with the wider case for diversity will nevertheless still cite local or other factors as reasons it not being possible for their local party in particular to select a female candidate—a sort of political “nimbyism” which is difficult to overcome. This makes it even more important that political parties as well as campaigners should be able to marshal, make and win arguments in favour of enabling a diverse range of candidates to stand in seats in which they have a reasonable chance of succeeding.
3.11 All political parties have internal procedures for identifying, screening and selecting candidates, and it is recognised that this is both reasonable and necessary. Every party is entitled to take steps to ensure that candidates standing under its banner represent its core beliefs, achieve certain core competencies and can be trusted to act collectively and with a degree of loyalty. Indeed, given the electorate’s clear preference for candidates from one or other of the main parties this is essential—apart from anything else people think that they know what they are getting with each party’s candidate, and for the parties to blur that by accepting as candidates people with little or no connection with them or loyalty to them would not be helpful in the wider context.
3.12 However, parties could do a great deal more to recruit suitable persons as members, to identify suitable members to bring forwards, to provide them with training, support, and mentoring schemes, and to ensure that candidate selection procedures are open and transparent.
3.13 Women are particularly likely to take the view that, before taking on the commitments of public office, they should get some training. This is sometimes viewed as a weakness or a sign of lack of confidence; in fact, given the complexities of modern local government and the enormous sums of public money involved, it is more of a strength, and political parties should all be doing more to try to meet this need (for men as well as for women; women are simply more likely to articulate it).
3.14 Whatever their good intentions, however, the parties nationally can have little effect on the recruitment process other than to encourage and support it. By far the best people to do this work are local members themselves, who understand their communities, know individuals in it, and have a direct and personal interest in electoral success. Any strategy for developing better recruitment and support systems, therefore, will need to ensure that local party organisations—which are all entirely made up of voluntary members, workers and activists—are better resourced and incentivised to spend time on it. They will need to be convinced of the value of doing it, and they will need to be supported in terms of training and materials. This has a cost implication for parties nationally and some proposals for how this might be dealt with further on in this submission.
3.15 There is then the issue of succession planning. Local councillors and their parties often wish to do more of this, but find that the procedures or cultures within their parties as a whole are inimical to it. Of course, this varies from party to party, with the Liberal Democrats having much looser structures and more scope for local action than either the Conservative or Labour parties, but in all three cases more could be done to encourage and incentivise long-term planning which could (and should) include provision for the bringing forward of potential women candidates from all communities.
3.16 Parties are understandably keen to make sure that their procedures ensure the selection of the best possible candidate for the seat, and that they are seen to be fair and above board. They also wish every aspirant candidate to have a fair chance, and in some quarters may argue that succession planning could militate against this. However, it needs to be recognised that many women (and other people from under-represented groups) regard the current procedures as anything but open and fair, and an increasing tendency to assume that there are wards which “belong” to given groups (one of the commonest of which is that wards with significant South Asian populations can only be represented by South Asian men) means that in fact selections across the board have become subject to a variety of opaque practices which go directly against what any of the parties wishes to achieve. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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3.17 Local members of all parties making selections should be given much more support to ensure both that the process is fair, and that sensible and open succession planning takes place. It will be argued that political parties are not currently resourced to do this, and proposals to rectify this are outlined further on. 3.18 Political parties should make it as easy as possible for members to find out about what being a councillor would involve, and how they could go about becoming one—all three of the main parties need to make this information much more accessible on their websites. This includes details of mentoring and shadowing schemes, training and other candidate support and succession planning measures. 3.19 One of the reasons that women “choose not to stand” is that they do not regard being a councillor as something relevant to them. Women tend to respond well to role models, and local government does not provide many. CFWD publishes regular analyses of the diversity of local government leadership; at present only 14% of council leaders are women, 2 (out of 13) elected mayors, and 27% of portfolio-holders. Having women in leadership roles seems in itself to produce more women in senior jobs; 36% of women leaders have cabinets at least half of whose members are women, but only 19% of male leaders. 55% of cabinets led by women are 30% or above female, and 37% of cabinets led by men.26 3.20 There are also differences in the types of portfolios men and women are likely to hold; 73% of leaders, for instance, held the economic regeneration portfolio prior to becoming leader, but only 13% of councillors holding this portfolio are women. on the other hand, 25% of education and children’s services portfolios are held by women, but just 13% of leaders have held it during their careers. 3.21 As a result of this, women rarely see other women in strategic or corporate leadership positions in local government, and when they do it is likely to be with responsibility for traditional “women’s” areas. This is not to say that there is anything wrong with women leading on children’s services or the environment—merely that the concentration of women in certain types of portfolio results in a lack of balance. The lack of diversity across the board of service provision is therefore likely to be discouraging to women whose fields of expertise are finance, the economy or housing. 3.22 Political parties could help to improve the overall position by establishing requirements for numbers of women in cabinets, and by ensuring that they are enforced. They could also ensure that women councillors are encouraged to go on leadership courses, and that they are visible in senior roles across the board of service delivery. 3.23 Whilst it is accepted that persuasion would be by far the best method of achieving gender parity in local government, it is also the case that at the present rate of progress it will be 2035 at the earliest before it is achieved. As has been demonstrated above, the problem does not lie with the electorate, but with the supply and selection of women candidates by the parties. The Labour Party already has a positive action policy, which has clearly delivered results—in 2003 only 23% of Labour’s candidates were women, whereas in 2012 this figure had risen to 41%. This has been achieved very largely by the cumulative effect of positive action measures introduced in 2004. The Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties have both rejected positive action for the time being at least, and their proportion of women candidates has remained more or less unchanged over the same period. 3.24 It is not suggested that the Labour Party’s model is the only one available—indeed, it should be reviewed and adjusted at regular intervals—but all three of the parties should consider the introduction of a scheme appropriate to them, supported by measures to identify and train women aspirants, even if only as a last resort if other methods of securing improvements fail. 3.25 If we are serious about improving the diversity of public representatives, and if as a society we choose (as we do) to continue to elect candidates from the main parties, then it follows that what the parties do—or do not—do in order to achieve diversity is a matter of public interest. 3.26 Political parties are funded very differently, and at different levels at different times, and must in any case regard elections themselves as the priority for their expenditure. This means that, as things stand at present, they are very unlikely to divert major funding into diversity work, and neither would it really be reasonable to expect them to do so. They are not charged by government or anyone else with the delivery of a diversity programme, nor were they set up for that purpose. They have an in-principle commitment to it, and have all made efforts to achieve it, but it is not now, nor will it be in the foreseeable future, at the top of their list of priorities for scarce resources. 3.27 However, if a fund were to be set up to which parties reaching a certain level of representation or vote could apply, there would be the incentive for them to be much more proactive. The fund could be held and administered independently and parties would need to be able to ring-fence—and to demonstrate that they had ring-fenced—the expenditure. They would also need to provide evidence of how it had been spent. Amongst the things which could be funded through this mechanism are: — diversity officers to work with local parties; — the development and implementation of mentoring and shadowing schemes; — training for prospective local government candidates; 26 These figures and those in 2.20 below are taken from CFWD research on leadership undertaken in 2010–11 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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— information and training for local members (especially on recruitment and selection issues); — active succession planning; — childcare for prospective candidates; — the development and production of good advice and training materials; and — effective monitoring. 3.28 Clearly, the fund would not be large, and parties would need to be innovative about the schemes they developed, but they would also then be in a position in which they were not effectively being expected to carry the whole burden of increasing diversity without any real support to do so, and would also have fewer excuses for not being proactive. 3.29 The current legislative framework permits parties to take positive action, but does not compel them to. There are no national targets or quotas for the representation of women, and the political parties all have different processes for achieving greater diversity. As demonstrated above, these have varying levels of success. 3.30 It is our view that diversity in public life will not be achieved without an element of compulsion to back up persuasion. As outlined above, it would be greatly preferable to persuade party activists and selectorates of both the justice of the case for parity and the electoral advantages of it, but experience suggests that this needs to be backed up by an enforceable requirement at some stage. 3.31 Amongst the options to consider for how this might be achieved are: — make continuation of any grants referred to above dependent on a demonstrable increase in the number of women councillors; — set a clear national target for the achievement of gender parity in local government elected members; — require parties to stand quotas of women in local government elections. This is easier where there are list systems, but still possible in all-out first-past-the-post elections since each party effectively has a “list” of candidates across the authority. The quota would need to take into account the relative winnability of seats and the gender break-down of incumbent councillors standing again. It is also accepted that this would be more difficult to implement effectively where councils come up for election by thirds; — ensure that elections for any new bodies or authorities which come into being have provision for positive action; and — ensure that provisions for elections following boundary reviews include positive action requirements. 3.32 There are some issues which may appear social, but which can also be regarded as political; for instance, the average age of councillors is now 60 and rising, and whilst 19% of all councillors are over the age of 70, only 7.5% are under 40.27 This imbalance creates the impression that local government is unrepresentative of the population at large and is not relevant either to younger people or to a more diverse range of people. 3.33 There is at present no retirement age for local councillors. On one level, there is some logic to this, since it is appropriate that the whole of the population should be represented in public bodies, but on another it causes a number of problems, particularly in relation to diversity. 3.34 There is currently a mandatory retirement age for magistrates of 70. The concept of a retirement age is therefore not in itself a novel one for public life. Obviously, the introduction of any retirement age for councillors would need to be consulted upon and legislated for, but should not be discounted as a valid possibility. 3.35 Another possibility which might be looked at is that councillors should retire at the end of the term of office in which they reach 75—this would enable there to be some flexibility of retirement age but would also enable some movement to be created. 3.36 In addition, it might be worth investigating a scheme introduced some years ago in Scotland in which councillors were recompensed for standing down in order to create new opportunities. We have not looked in detail at the outcomes of this scheme, but believe that it would bear further investigation. 3.37 On the other hand, the skills and experiences of long-serving councillors who still have much to contribute should not be lost if at all possible. There is currently a (mainly) ceremonial position of Alderman— this could be expanded and given the function of mentoring new and aspirant councillors. Unlike serving councillors, aldermen would have the time to give to this, and would also have an interest and investment in the future of local government as well as the past. Training and support could be provided, and it could be developed into a senior role of value rather than a full stop to activity. 3.38 There are some issues which councils themselves need to examine, and about which there needs to be some public discussion. The role of a local councillor is extremely demanding; the average councillor spends 27 LGA Census of Local Councillor 2010 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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23 hours a week on council and those in senior roles spend much more. Members have to balance ward work with constituents and communities with meetings in the town hall, and many have to juggle jobs and family responsibilities as well. 3.39 Councils across the board need to think about changing the way in which they work in order to accommodate the challenges and pace of modern life, but communities also need to be much clearer about what it is that they want their councillor to do. There are some good arguments to be made in favour of a professionalised elected tier in local government, but there is also a great deal to be said for maintaining the part-time, community-based aspect of the job. 3.40 One issue which particularly concerns women is that of security, particularly for women who are on their own. The expectation that councillors will always be available to talk to constituents means that there are risks, particularly for women whose home addresses and phone numbers are published, or who find themselves doing casework surgeries on their own. Councils should ensure that there are proper arrangements in place to take account of these risks, and that women should be reassured that they will not find themselves in dangerous situations.
4. Conclusion 4.1 This submission looks at a relatively small number of key areas, and certainly does not contain the complete answer to the problem. However, it is our view that, whilst there are some relatively small things which can be done to increase diversity, we also need to take some adventurous and innovative steps if we are to develop a truly inclusive democracy. June 2012
Written evidence from Paul Wheeler, Director of Political Skills Forum (CC 25) 1. Overview I welcome the opportunity to give evidence and assist the work of the Select Committee. I have been involved with the development and support of local councillors for over 20 years. I established the Member Development service at the Improvement and Development Agency in 1999 which was responsible for a number of well regarded initiative including the Leadership Academy and the Charter for Member Development endorsed by all political parties. I am currently the Director of the Political Skills Forum which exist to promote the importance of local democracy. It probably is worth noting at the beginning that many of the issues that prevent a greater range of people to consider standing as local councillors relate to wider issues about how, we as a society, value local democracy and the ability of local communities to actively influence their own futures. These concerns are being discussed by a number of agencies and I think that the Select Committee is very timely in being able to take a wider perspective on both the barriers and incentives to undertake the elected role at a local level. I would like to focus my evidence on how we can persuade those in the age range of 25–50 to consider taking up the role of local councillor. It is this group who are often the “community builders” in many localities who are the “missing generation” from many council chambers. As I have indicated that there some deep seated issues as to how we have arrived at the current composition of the councillor population I wanted to deal with some basic principles;
2. Principle One—“It’s Good to be Elected” There are two related issues. Firstly a large and increasing number of people do not understand the role of local councillors. Secondly we have created a whole range of organizations where it seems more can be achieved by being nominated rather than by being elected. I think we need to be much clearer that elections at a local level confer status and responsibility. Anyone who has visited European cities such as Barcelona and Milan will be aware of the respect accorded to the local Town Hall and its representatives. Apart from the Corporation of London we seem to have largely forgotten that tradition. If we are to reverse this trend I think we need to have a “mission to inform” the wider population of the roles and responsibilities of elected office. I have outlined a number of these in my open letter to your Chair (see attached). I also think we need to create more “pathways” to stand for elected office. It is often said we have fewer elected councillors per capita than any other Western Democracy. We also tend to have more councillors on fewer institutions—a pattern accentuated by the move to larger unitary councils. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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We should regard a new range of neighbourhood councils (incorporating existing town and parish councils) as the building blocks of local democracy and clear powers of persuasion and percept. It is interesting that we have recently had the first vote to elect a town council in London in Queen Park, North Westminster. In addition every secondary school should be encouraged to have elected school councils (with some of the excitement transferred across from the United States) and the small number of Young Mayors be considerably expanded.
3. Principle Two—“Local Politics is a Team Sport” We need to stress that most sustained change and improvement at a local level is as a result of a “team approach”. So far in England the vast majority of these “teams” tend to be from the three main political parties. However as events in both Northern Ireland and Scotland indicate these teams can change in terms of popular support and connection with local issues. As a matter of interest the Electoral Commission currently have over 300 political teams registered. In the 2010 “Independents for Frome” gained control of a large town council in Somerset from established parties. There are other aspects to the team aspect of local politics that need to be recognized. Whilst we do need to profile and promote the role of local councillors we also need to acknowledge that most local councillors are part of a wider team of active local citizens and organizations. The ability for local councillors to act as role models and advocates for this wider group will be a powerful influence in attracting a greater range of people into the councillor role. The final aspect of the team role is how local political leaders act in concert to advocate for greater profile and responsibilities. Too often a blind loyalty to national parties can prevent strong regional and local coalitions emerging. The American City Mayors’ Alliance regularly attracts the interest of Presidents and presidential candidates. A serving Prime Minister has yet to address the Local Government Conference.
4. Principle Three—“The Ability to Make a Difference” I understand and accept that the Select Committee is reluctant to comment on the existing structure, funding and powers of local government. However it is impossible not to acknowledge that the limited extent of councillors to influence and co-ordinate the local public spend in their localities is a major barrier to the recruitment of capable and committed councillors. An excellent council like Kent has direct responsibility for just £1 billion of the £10 billion of public monies spent in the county. The many hundreds of new district councillors have yet to be told that they are responsible for less than 5% of the public monies spent in their localities. It may be neither possible or desirable to return the bulk of this local spend to the discretion of local councils . However I do think there are real opportunities for councils, especially first tier councils, to exercise more influence over the priorities of the organisations represented on local strategic partnerships. At present there are few opportunities for local initiative and creative thinking around the delivery of public services. The current pilots on community budgeting in Essex, Greater Manchester, Chester and Cheshire West and the tri- boroughs of Westminster, Kensington & Chelsea and Hammersmith & Fulham may have considerable implications.
5. Principle Four—Encouraging Rather than Prescribing Change All political organizations are voluntary organizations and as such generally adverse to policy prescription. As an alternative we should be looking at ways that we can encourage more inclusive processes of recruitment and selection. However before we do so we do need to look at some supply side issues in regard to the missing generation of 25–50 year olds. I understand the issues regarding remuneration and the move to a fulltime councillor role but it also an area where there is probably little consensus between the needs of local councillors and the views of the wider electorate and local media. It would also be counter-productive and possibly create new barriers to entry if we insisted on a full time role for all councillors. It is certainly true that the demands in larger councils especially at Leader/Executive level may well mean we move to a de-facto full time role. However we may also have to accept that to gain the required “living wage” political groups may have to accept a reduction of the number of councillors at that executive level. It is perhaps also necessary to acknowledge that some councillors do the bare minimum of work but because they represent safe wards they are immune from electoral pressure and can act as political “bed-blockers”. I think we do need to think of “performance pressures” ie some measures of performance which are understood by party members and the wider public that can be used to define effective performance by councillors at all levels. Currently the only performance measure is the obligation to attend one council meeting every three months. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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However just as important is how we can encourage councillors of working age to regard service as councillors as both short term (up to two terms) and a career developer. In terms of profiling the role of councillors and the opportunity to gain transferable skills we need to win the hearts and minds of employers. Some employers such as Unilever and BAE Systems are very supportive of their staff becoming local councillors but this is not consistent. In the past the LGA supported a Good Employer Award to acknowledge the role of good employers and it may be appropriate in re-launch this award. The issue of the support provided to councillors by their councils is also critical to encouraging councillors in employment to take up senior positions. The London Borough of Westminster has a executive of which nearly all are in employment. This is achieved by providing an extensive team of personal assistants and researchers that work directly to them. Unfortunately this remains the exception rather than the rule. If we can increase the supply of interested candidates we need to return to the question of encouraging good behaviour amongst political organizations. All the available evidence suggests that where political organizations openly recruit and have a transparent and understandable selection process they are able to attract a more diverse group of candidates. The problem is that this process is largely confined to London Boroughs and other metropolitan areas such as Manchester and Liverpool and so far is not widely taken up nationally and across parties. The challenge is to encourage a more wider take-up of open recruitment and here we need to think of peer challenge and support. It may be slower than policy prescriptions but it has the merit of gaining ownership within the parties, encourages innovation and allows a competitive choice for the electorate. An example of the scope for self improvement is the “Be a Councillor” initiative by the LGA which has gained considerable success in the last two years.
6. Next Steps A major factor in the preservation of the existing status quo is the fact there is no consistent advocate for change. Most of the national parties have a passing interest in local elections and councillor selection. As the General Elections approaches it tends to become much fainter. At the same time local government and most of their agencies assume that the selection process is the distinct prerogative of political parties. If we are to disturb this equilibrium of inactivity we need to think about creating an advocate for local democracy that can address some of the complex issues involved in promoting and profiling the local elected role. Models do exist such as Industry and Parliament Trust which is supported by a large number of commercial organizations to encourage those with business experience to stand as MPs (a similar role is undertake by Trades Unions but currently restricted to one party). Equally the Hansard Society has a mission to promote parliamentary democracy and the work of Parliament. On an international level the Westminster Foundation encourages best practice and innovation amongst political parties in emerging democracies. A Local Democracy Foundation could replicate the beneficial features of all these organizations for the specific promotion of local democracy in England. It could be funded from existing funds designated for leadership improvement and capacity building in local government. At the same time we should; be encouraging the main political parties to establish arms-length organizations for their councillors (and potential councillors) which can more clearly articulate local policies and recruitment strategies within their respective party structures. I would be happy to discuss any of these suggestions with the Select Committee as appropriate. June 2012
Supplementary written evidence from Paul Wheeler, Director of Political Skills Forum (CC 25a) I was conscious that there were a couple of questions where some additional information was needed. In terms of “performance measurement” of councillors it is very important that this does not become some kind of rigid or overly bureaucratic system. I think it is much more a way of providing more information to party members (for those who represent political parties) and the wider public for all councillors. Oldham Council has produced an annual report form for councillors which will be made publically available on the web-site.28 With this information the party members and wider audience at the selection and election stage can decide if their existing councillors have reached appropriate levels of performance and activity. One issue that the Committee may wish to consider is whether the current requirement for councillor activity (one committee meeting per cycle) before disqualification is sufficient. The additional issue is the role and purpose of a Local Democracy Advocacy Organisation. This can encourage more people to consider standing for election as elected representatives at all levels (schools/ 28 www.oldham.gov.uk/info/200740/councillor_annual_reports cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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colleges, town/parish/neighbourhood and local councils etc). It could take over and expand the current LGA “Be a Councillor Programme”. Finally my observation is that in the UK we often have too many councillors on too few councils (eg Cornwall has over 120 councillors on one single unitary council). We do need to encourage more local town councils. If we do so we should accept that the existing unitary/district and county councils could comfortably see a reduction in their councillor numbers. October 2012
Written evidence from The Elections Centre, Plymouth University (CC 27) Obtaining information about the social characteristics of people who stand for local election is a key feature of the annual candidate surveys. In 2012 the survey was conducted online with candidates randomly selected from all those standing. A one in two sample was drawn with each candidate sent a letter to the address given on their nomination forms. The letter, timed to arrive shortly after the elections on 3 May, explained the purpose of the survey and provided instructions for online completion. Those candidates that did not wish to complete their survey online were given the opportunity to undertake a postal questionnaire. The data collected from the 2012 candidates broadly confirm the pattern of previous surveys undertaken since 2006. Table 1 shows that candidates are mostly men, more than half are aged 61 years or more and a large majority are of white ethnic origin. The under-representation of women, younger people and Black, Asian and other minority ethnic groups is as prevalent amongst candidates as it is amongst councillors. A majority, 59%, of people that stand hold a university degree or its equivalent qualification; many have higher degree also. They are overwhelmingly drawn from professional and managerial occupations. It is unsurprising that 28% are retired from work given the age profile. Candidates are asked whether they are currently resident in the ward that they fought in the local election. The 2012 figures show that 53% were resident but 47% lived outside the ward boundaries although some of these did report that they had once lived within the ward. These data are in line with other surveys with the exception of the London boroughs where the proportions were reversed with most candidates living outside the ward. Table 1 SOCIAL CHARACTERISTICS OF CANDIDATES CONTESTING 2012 LOCAL ELECTIONS Count Column N % gender male 752 72.2% female 290 27.8% Total 1,042 100.0% age 35 yrs and under 179 18.2% 36–45 yrs 101 10.3% 51–55 yrs 199 20.3% 61–65 yrs 295 30.1% 66 yrs and over 207 21.1% Total 981 100.0% ethnicity White 1,004 96.3% Non-white 39 3.7% Total 1,043 100.0% education No qualification 51 5.2% GCSE or A level 351 35.9% degree 577 58.9% Total 979 100.0% occupation Professional 465 49.6% Managerial/technical 244 26.0% Other 229 24.4% Total 938 100.0% employment Full/Part-time employment 381 38.8% Self employed 152 15.5% Retired 276 28.1% Other 172 17.5% Total 981 100.0% ward resident? Yes 550 53.3% No 481 46.7% Total 1031 100.0%
It is theoretically possible for a large-scale change in the social composition of council benches if we assume that all incumbents are defeated by rival candidates. One method for examining this possibility is to divide cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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respondents into one of four categories, viz, those standing for the first time, incumbents seeking re-election; former councillors and a final category reserved for people that have stood on more than one election but are never elected. Table 2 describes social characteristics within these four candidate categories. Currently under-represented groups (women, younger people, BME) are more likely to feature as first time candidates but with the exception of younger candidates the differences are rather small. Table 2 SOCIAL CHARACTERISTICS BY ELECTIVE STATUS Former Serial but First-time councillor, never elected candidate Incumbent non-incumbent candidate Column N % Column N % Column N % Column N % gender male 68.3% 74.2% 74.4% 75.8% female 31.7% 25.8% 25.6% 24.2% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% age 35 yrs and under 26.4% 9.2% 1.2% 18.4% 36–45 yrs 12.5% 4.9% 7.3% 11.0% 51–55 yrs 17.8% 19.7% 29.3% 20.7% 61–65 yrs 26.6% 36.6% 32.9% 30.3% 66 yrs and over 16.7% 29.6% 29.3% 19.6% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% ethnicity White 95.9% 100.0% 96.5% 95.1% Non-white 4.1% 0.0% 3.5% 4.9% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% education No qualification 5.0% 4.2% 2.5% 5.7% GCSE or A level 41.4% 38.0% 35.8% 29.6% degree 53.7% 57.7% 61.7% 64.7% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% occupation Professional 47.8% 50.4% 56.8% 49.1% Managerial/technical 25.0% 28.8% 22.2% 27.4% Other 27.2% 20.9% 21.0% 23.5% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% employment Full/Part-time 38.2% 39.4% 36.6% 39.9% employment Self employed 16.8% 10.6% 18.3% 15.8% Retired 21.7% 40.1% 34.1% 28.2% Other 23.3% 9.9% 11.0% 16.1% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% ward resident? Yes 53.0% 60.0% 50.0% 51.7% No 47.0% 40.0% 50.0% 48.3% Total 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0%
What motivates people to stand as candidates? Each year we ask candidates about the first time they stood for local election. Had they made that decision to stand or were they persuaded to stand by someone else in the first instance? Almost four in ten of our respondents stated that the decision to stand for the first time was entirely of their own making while six in ten stood after being asked to stand. For those people that took their own decision some 62% did so because they believed that by standing they could make a difference. This choice was a long way in front of two others—“an important step in political career” and “general volunteering reasons”, each of which was chosen by 18% of respondents. The least popular option was “knew someone else on the council”, selected by just 3% of our respondents. Among those that were approached to stand the two clear leading chosen options were a fellow party member (61%) and a serving councillor (26%) while other sources were barely mentioned—just 3%, for example, stood after being asked by a member of a local community group.
Why were they selected? Candidates are presented a range of options and asked to select those that applied to their own selection as a candidate in 2012. One in eight believed that they were selected because they were the incumbent councillor seeking re-election. Slightly more, 17% thought that previously being a councillor played a part in their selection. Just over a quarter, 26%, felt they were chosen because they were likely to win. The most selected options were “local resident” (46%) and “good reputation” (55%) but it may also be worth noting that 28% cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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were chosen because they were the only volunteer and 36% because they had agreed to be a paper candidate only. These data are similar to those in previous surveys.
Why don’t others stand? Finding answers to why some people stand but others, equally capable of doing so, do not stand. In previous research we have tried to tap into this “eligibility pool”, attempting to seek out those people that might but don’t stand. This research failed because we could not elicit sufficient responses from our targeted group to generate a meaningful sample; those that don’t stand also don’t participate in surveys! Nevertheless, local candidates are a useful resource for tapping into those factors that might discourage some people from standing. A series of possible explanations are presented to candidates with options ranging between strongly agree to strongly disagree (Table 3). Table 3 POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS FOR WHY MORE PEOPLE DON’T STAND FOR ELECTION Column N % Being a councillor is too time consuming Strongly Agree 17.6% Agree 47.5% Neutral 18.6% Disagree 14.1% Strongly Disagree 2.1% Total 100.0% Councillors don’t have the power to make a difference Strongly Agree 6.1% Agree 22.9% Neutral 17.3% Disagree 40.7% Strongly Disagree 12.9% Total 100.0% Councillors are insufficiently paid Strongly Agree 7.2% Agree 21.1% Neutral 29.7% Disagree 31.8% Strongly Disagree 10.1% Total 100.0% Intrusive media coverage of personal life may discourage some Strongly Agree 10.5% people from standing Agree 45.0% Neutral 20.9% Disagree 20.6% Strongly Disagree 3.1% Total 100.0% Political parties dominate local government and this discourages Strongly Agree 19.2% people who don’t want a party allegiance Agree 41.5% Neutral 17.1% Disagree 18.0% Strongly Disagree 4.3% Total 100.0%
A clear majority think that the image of being a councillor discourages people from standing—almost two- thirds agree/strongly agree that the job is too time-consuming. But the power of councillors is not the issue— more than half disagree that a lack of power is a factor while more than four in ten don’t think that remuneration is the issue. There is rather more support for the idea that being a public figure and the attention that attracts may suppress people’s ambitions; 56% think that people are put off by the potential for media intrusion into their private lives. Despite the evidence that political party members do much of the candidate recruitment already there is a clear ambivalence towards their role. When asked whether people were dissuaded from standing because local government was dominated by local parties, one in five strongly agreed with a further 42% agreeing with this statement. By contrast, fewer than one in twenty strongly disagreed. And yet, when it was suggested that one way of improving recruitment would be for parties to select candidates that were not party members only one in four agreed/strongly agreed with this suggestion but the proportion disagreeing was more than one in every two candidates; parties are seen as part of the problem but not part of the solution. June 2012 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Written evidence from Leeds City Council/Commission on the Future of Local Government (CC 37) Leeds City Council led the Commission on the Future of Local Government, launched on 3 July 2012. Throughout the process of meeting, calling for evidence and writing the final report, the role of Councillors within the sector and the wider community was at the forefront of our work and thinking. We have attached a copy of our final report to our submission email, though this can also be found on the website: www.civicenterpriseuk.org. The Commission concluded that local democracy needs to be revitalised and a new social contract devised to make local government and its councillors fit for the 21st century. The Commission has committed to produce a piece of work with INLOGOV (The University of Birmingham) around Member Development to put our ideas into practice. Having read the previous submissions to the Inquiry, we do not feel it necessary to submit a detailed and lengthy memorandum. Instead we wish to add our voice to those already heard by endorsing the views of, for example, Sunderland City Council, the LGA and the CfPS. In summary, from our experience of the evidence submitted to the Commission on the Future of Local Governments we believe there are several things the Inquiry needs to take into account: The image of local government: the media often portrays local government in a somewhat negative way, despite polls showing that it is more trusted than central government.29 This can lead people to believe that councils and councillors are not efficient and do not have a positive role to play in their communities, when the exact opposite is true. Councillors often work tirelessly on behalf of their communities and for vulnerable people and service users, often with very little recognition. The many examples and stories of excellent public service need to be told, including by using new forms of more personalised and direct communications, to restore public faith in local government and democracy. Instead of being seen as the problem, local government and local politicians can be part of the solution to some of the big challenges facing the UK. However, given the “perfect storm” we face (of reduced budgets, rising demand and expectations, a crisis in confidence of politicians) there is a need and opportunity for councils and councillors to be more entrepreneurial and positive in their approach. Councillors can create opportunities for local communities and be visible, forceful, influential leaders who bring communities together to champion their voice and needs. Councillors should also act as “door openers” to services and other community actors, such as GPs, schools, businesses and third sector organisations. Complexity of the role and need for support: councillors need to be adequately supported both by their local authorities and by their political parties. Their role is multi-layered and complex, with councillors having to be effective communicators and strategic thinkers and switch roles almost constantly. Councils, and councillors, will need new approaches to be successful at utilising less formal social networks, participatory democracy, better engagement with young people and undertaking broader influencing role, rather than relying on the more formal, traditional structures we associate with the public sector and local government in particular. Leeds has excellent and comprehensive member support and development service, which we hope to learn from and build on in the Commission’s work with INLOGOV (the University of Birmingham), to create a bespoke member Development programme. Devolving more power can also reinforce the value and role of all councillors and the different functions that they fulfil. Civic enterprise is a way of reconnecting, in particular, backbench councillors with their communities, allowing local citizens to better engage in the concept of a social contract with local government. We can do this by offering them choice and control over how services are designed and delivered, in return for an increased sense of personal responsibility and independence. Authorities should consider devolving powers (and budgets) around, for example, street cleansing and refuse, planning and housing to the local level, as Leeds has started to do with their Area Committees as a way of energising local democracy. Legitimacy of local government—participation and engagement: councillors hold the local democratic mandate and this is fundamental to the legitimacy of local government as a voice for the whole of the place they serve and represent. Local ward councillors must reclaim their leadership role as the accepted and mandated voice of citizens who enable all sectors to take action together in campaigns to improve people’s lives. Local government, through the democratic mandate, has a legitimate interest and role in holding to account and leading other local public organisations (such as health services), local businesses and civil society. We know that participation in traditional democratic processes, most significantly, voting in elections is declining. We can work to increase this, but have to recognise that it simply may not happen at least in the short term, in which case, we need to think about how we retain and strengthen this democratic legitimacy in other ways, including via better, more representative and ongoing engagement programmes. In conclusion, the Commission recognises the importance of councillors’ roles and suggests that there is a pressing need to strengthen both the image of local government and its councillors and their role in community 29 See recent polls by Ipsos MORI and YouGov. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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life and decision making and to revitalise local democracy. At the same time, councillors must be enabled to fulfil their complex roles through adequate support and development. The Commission on the Future of Local Government along with Leeds City Council is committed to this agenda and looks forward to the findings of the Select Committee. We would be happy also to take part in any of the planned discussions. July 2012
Written evidence from Cllr Rowan J Draper (CC 42) About the Author Councillor R J Draper was elected to Stafford Borough Council by the Littleworth ward with 1,043 votes on a turnout of 43% in the ward, and 45.93% borough-wide, in May 2011 for the Labour Party as a first-time candidate. He currently serves on the following committees: Community Services Scrutiny Committee, Audit and Accounts Committee, Member Facilities working group, Stafford Borough Twinning Organisation and Stafford Borough Horticultural Committee. He was locally schooled at Blessed William Howard R.C High School followed by study at Stafford College. He attended Newman University College, Birmingham and graduated with an upper second class honours degree in Drama. Whilst studying for his degree he was twice elected to Newman Students’ Union as Sports Development Officer and had leading roles in sports teams and activity groups including Co-Director of the University’s music and drama society. He joined the Labour Party following the results of the 2010 General Election and has since served as Youth and Students’ Officer (2011–12) for Stafford’s constituency Labour Party and Secretary for Staffordshire Young Labour (2011–12).
Recommendations — That the committee looks at a way of standardising the allowances paid to councillors throughout the country based on common factors: electorate size, service provision, expected hourly contribution (be it in council meetings or otherwise), management of work/council schedule.
Introduction I attended Blessed William Howard, a Catholic comprehensive High School serving the Stafford and district area in the Archdiocese of Birmingham, during 1996–2001. Following GCSE study I enrolled at Stafford College until 2004 where I completed BTEC First and National Diploma’s in Performing Arts. Prior to higher education study, during 2003–07, I was employed in the public house industry and disillusioned with politics. Life was focused on working enough hours on the national minimum wage to support a rented property, living a typical early 20s lifestyle and trying to gain opportunity for promotion, and developing a career with vocational study including a foundation modern apprenticeship in bar service. During my undergraduate study my interest within government, the politics of higher education and public service progressively changed. Inspired by the commitment I had made to students of Newman University College as their union’s executive officer for sport. This opportunity opened a number of doors to organisations such as the National Union of Students, the British Universities Colleges Sport, and the Students’ Rugby Football Union; all of which enhanced my education and professional skill set. These experiences culminated in my decision to join a political party in the aftermath of the 2010 General Election.
1. What made you stand for election to the council? 1.1 I first thought about standing for election to the local council after I had graduated from University, and before I had been involved with my local party. When I considered it I thought it would be incredibly difficult to get selected, finance a campaign and even tougher to get a message across to the electorate. After this consideration I put it to the back of my mind. 1.2 As the selection process neared I started to consider it again and the following factors influenced my decision to stand for election: 1.3 University Experience: My time at Newman University College broadened my horizons sufficiently and enabled me to develop in countless ways. One of them was through instilling a public service ethic and helping others, which I built on as a Students’ Union officer, that it just seemed like the right next step in my own personal development. 1.4 Party Relationship: Being a new member to the local party I wanted to make as full and robust a contribution as possible and to show that I was capable of being considered a viable council candidate in the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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future. Being selected for a Conservative held seat, with the potential to be a close marginal, looked like a great opportunity to learn “the ropes” of canvassing, running a campaign and being an election candidate with no expectation to win the seat. 1.5 Government Mid-Terms: Previous council elections in 2003 and 2007 had displayed the full-force of the anti-government sentiment against Labour. With the introduction of a Conservative-led government, and many Liberal Democrats breaking their personal pledges to students on tuition fees, it was obvious that this election would be a good opportunity for any Labour candidate with the will and desire to get elected. 1.6 Representing the Community: The average age of Councillors in local government at the time I stood for election was 57 and increased to 59 after my election. My local authority has a majority of retired members of the community as councillors, and very few under 30, and my local party had even less. Whilst it was not an overwhelming factor in my decision to stand it did however play an influential part in justifying my candidacy with the electorate during the campaign on their doorstep. When deciding to stand I wanted to show my section of the community that we could have an influence over the community and local government. 1.7 Making a difference: Stephen Frears wrote for the Gordon Brown character in his 2003 film “The Deal” the dialogue that, when talking to the Tony Blair character after refusing a promotion in the Scottish office, “Isn’t that what we came into politics for … deep down we won’t be able to change the world until we have the big job” and I believe that this is an influential maxim on members of the councillor community. We get involved because we want to be involved and able to make a difference. 1.8 Do you want to be an MP? Many young people involved with party politics find themselves being asked whether they want to go on to become an MP, especially young councillors, and the evidence supports the notion that many become Councillors because it enables them to gain a grounding or foundation in skills and experiences relevant to standing to become a Member of Parliament later on: 1.8.1 46% (or 305) of all sitting MPs (see Appendix 1) have previously served in Local Government either as Councillors for Parish, Town, Community, Borough, District, County or members of the London Assembly. 1.8.2 38% of current Conservative MPs have served a minimum of one year as a Councillor or Assembly Member as opposed to 53% for Labour and 57% for the Liberal Democrats. 1.8.3 Members of minor parties and those members who serve Parliament through the Speaker’s Office having served in local government totals 54%. 1.8.4 Eric Pickles (Bradford), Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith & Fulham), Henry Smith (West Sussex County), David Blunkett (Sheffield), Brandon Lewis (Brentwood), Clive Betts (Sheffield), Kris Hopkins (Bradford), Alan Whitehead (Southampton) also show a symbolic trend of leaders in local government going on to become members of Parliament. 1.9 It stands to reason that with a convention as high as 53% of parliamentary Labour Party members having served in local government that any individual who wanted to pursue that path would be well-served by becoming a local councillor so that they could pursue the option later in life, if they so chose.
2. To what extent has your experience so far lived up to your expectations? 2.1 Being an elected representative of the community is unlike any experience I have had previously and unlikely to be matched by any other I have in the immediate future. However I can’t say it’s fully lived up to expectations when you consider that many expectations will have been influenced by the The West Wing, Borgen, The Thick of It, Yes Minister and House of Cards. The drama, tension and action for many of the characters aren’t the same for being a backbench opposition member of local government outside of a major city. 2.2 Making the transition from a Students’ Union Executive Officer to party political councillor has been quite a leap of differing expectations to the way I approach meetings, preparations and building relationships with fellow members. I think that all of the skills I have learnt from this have lived up to expectations and was one of the reasons I stood—to learn more about politics in practice. 2.3 Though I think that there should be more standardised induction procedures attached to new councillors, perhaps delivered by an independent body or the local government association, able to deliver a structured programme of education over the various roles and powers of being a successful councillor (without the focus being on local government leaders). 2.4 Many of the party specific events I was invited to were delivered at short notice or based in London and both of these factors contributed to my being unable to attend. Many of the local authority delivered sessions were for combined political groups and combined experience levels so weren’t fully able to address all of the questions and queries I had. 2.5 I have also seen some best practice I will be proposing to my local authority from Tameside Council where they held a mock Council meeting for first-time members to learn the ropes before entering into their first Council meeting. These kinds of initiatives can help detoxify the political imagery that councils and cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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political parties give to local government because the status of the member is given more preference than the needs or desires of the group to educate in only their traditions. 2.6 The decision to host this inquiry, and a recent discussion I took part in (on attracting more young councillors to local government on the guardian website), shows that there is more to do to attract and keep young councillors in local government. One issue that always props up in conversation is members allowances. Many colleagues I have spoken to are disappointed that their authority, because of the political sensitivity of the issue, are not recompensed as effectively as colleagues elsewhere in carrying out their work. 2.7 My local authority raised its allowances this municipal year to approximately £3,600 per annum basic allowance. The neighbouring County Council’s allowances are approximately £8,000 per annum basic allowance. The difference allocated for a basic councillor can mean the difference between being able to take on the role of a councillor and not. None of us, I hope, are in local government for the money but allowances should be set a reasonable standard for councillors. I would hope that one recommendation coming out of this inquiry is that the committee looks at a way of standardising the allowances paid to councillors based on common factors: electorate size, service provision, expected hourly contribution (be it in council meetings or otherwise), management of work/council schedule. 2.8 Being able to meet and network with other young Labour councillors has greatly influenced my experience of local government. This was facilitated through followers on twitter, the local government association and its young councillor’s training weekend conference in November 2011. The people I met their have been great confidants to me over the last year and have helped support me through the high’s and low’s of being a councillor. We need more of this to support young councillors because whilst local government continues to be an arena for the retired, or closed to retired, we will need avenues for young councillors to share and support each other. 2.9 Out of this came a group we unofficially dubbed “Councillors on Tour”—the Young Labour Councillors Support Network—an idea we have launched on facebook, twitter, delivered a website and setup an email list to be able to support and network with other young councillors within our party. 2.10 My experience has instilled a belief in me that local authorities should not only be a place where retired professionals gather to govern the city but should be living, breathing and accountable organisations that reflect their community. For many in local government we are too quick to explain away why students, manual labourers, single mum’s and self-employed members of our community don’t take an active role in our Council’s rather than facing up to why they aren’t involved and why there is a pre-conceived bias towards retirees making up the bulk of local government benches.
3. Do you think you will stand for re-election? Why/why not? 3.1 Before standing for re-election I will be influenced by a number of different factors that include the following seven areas that I would wish to have addressed in a satisfactory manner: — Employment Status. — Career Prospects. — Council Responsibilities. — Work—Life Balance. — Financial Position. — Relationship Status. — Family Life. 3.1.1 Employment status: Am I employed? If so, what type of contract am I serving? How many hours am I expected to work? How flexible would my employer be? How understanding are they, or would they be? 3.1.2 Career Prospects: Where am I employed? Does it have suitable stability for the next 48 months? Does it look like a promotion is on the cards within the next 12–24 months? 3.1.3 Council responsibilities: What is the likelihood of my party taking control of the council’s administration? If it is foreseeable, what is the likely duties I can expect to take on? Am I within 12–24 months of being selected to serve in the cabinet or shadow cabinet? Am I within 12–24 months of being selected to chair a scrutiny or regulatory committee? 3.1.4 Work—Life Balance: Do I have a reasonable standard of living outside of employment? Am I socialising enough? Do I have enough extra-curricular activities already being pursued? Am I renting? Do I own my own home? What is the likelihood of achieving owning my own home within the next 60 months? 3.1.5 Financial position: Do I have the money to support being a councillor? Does the authority have the budget requisite to support my time and contribution through their allowance scheme? 3.1.6 Relationship status: Am I in a relationship? If I am in a relationship, how long for? Is my partner accepting and/or supportive of time spent serving as a Councillor? If I am single, what is the likelihood of a permanent relationship in the next 12–24 months? If the likelihood is cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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great, what is the potential for a partner to be accepting or supportive of a partner involved within party politics? 3.1.7 Family Life: If I am in a relationship and have had a reasonable amount of longevity within it, am I in a position to see having children as on the horizon? Are my partner and I looking to have children within the next 12–24 months? 3.2 If these elements did not indicate what I had anticipated by 2015 then I would have to re-consider standing again but that I hasten to add that it would not preclude me from re-standing later on in life once those features had been fulfilled. 3.3 Should the answers to these questions indicate a stable living position, with the opportunity to continue council commitments, and supportive of a committed relationship with children on the horizon I would strongly consider re-standing for election in 2015.
APPENDIX 1 FORMER COUNCILLORS NOW SERVING AS MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT Conservative (118/305) Labour (135/253) Liberal Democrat (33/57) Peter Aldous Diane Abbott Norman Baker David Amess Bob Ainsworth Alan Beith Stuart Andrew Heidi Alexander Gordon Birtwistle James Arbuthnot Ian Austin Tom Brake Gavin Barwell Adrian Bailey Annette Brooke Richard Benyon Hugh Bayley Paul Burstow Paul Beresford Stuart Bell Lorely Burt Andrew Bingham Hilary Benn Vincent Cable Brian Binley Joe Benton Tim Farron Bob Blackman Clive Betts Lynne Featherstone Nick Boles Roberta Blackman-Woods Don Foster Peter Bone Hazel Blears Steve Gilbert Angie Bray (AM) David Blunkett Mike Hancock Fiona Bruce Kevin Brennan David Heath Robert Buckland Lyn Brown John Hemming Aidan Burley Nick Brown Martin Horwood Conor Burns Russell Brown Julian Huppert David Burrowes Chris Bryant Norman Lamb Alistair Burt Karen Buck John Leech Neil Carmichael Ronnie Campbell Greg Mulholland Rehman Chisti Martin Caton John Pugh Christopher Chope Jenny Chapman Alain Reid Therese Coffey Tom Clarke John Rogerson Greg Clark Vernon Coaker Bob Russell Glyn Davies Anne Coffey Adrian Sanders Caroline Dinenage Michael Connarty Robert Smith Johnathan Djanogly Rosie Cooper Andrew Stunnell Phillip Dunne Jeremy Corbyn Sarah Teather Michael Ellis David Crausby David Ward Jane Ellison Mary Creagh Roger Williams Tobias Ellwood Stella Creasy Stephen Williams Charlie Elphicke Alex Cunningham Jenny Willott Graham Evans Jim Cunningham Simon Wright—33 David Evennett Tony Cunningham Mark Field Nic Dakin Mark Francois Simon Danczuk Mike Freer Alistair Darling Lorraine Fullbrook Wayne David Mark Garnier Ian Davidson Richard Graham Geraint Davies Chris Grayling John Denham Justine Greening Jim Dobbin Dominic Grieve Frank Dobson Robert Halfon Jim Dowd Stephen Hammond Clive Efford Greg Hands Louise Ellman Rebecca Harris Bill Esterson John Hayes Frank Field Gordon Henderson Robert Flello cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Conservative (118/305) Labour (135/253) Liberal Democrat (33/57) George Hollingberry Paul Flynn Phillip Hollobone Yvonne Fovargue Kris Hopkins Barry Gardiner Gerald Howarth Sheila Gilmore John Howell Mary Glindon Mark Hunter Roger Godsiff Stuart Jackson Paul Goggins Margot James Nia Griffith Gareth Johnson Andrew Gwynne Andrew Johnson David Hamilton Marcus Jones Fabian Hamilton Simon Kirby David Hands Greg Knight Mark Hendrick Mark Lancaster Stephen Hepburn Pauline Latham David Heyes Andrea Leadsom Meg Hillier Phillip Lee Margaret Hodge Jeremy Lefroy Kate Hoey Edward Leigh Jim Hood Brandon Lewis Kelvin Hopkins Iain Liddell Grainger George Howarth Jack Lopresti Sian James Johnathan Lord Diana Johnson Karen Lumley Graham Johnson Francis Maude Helen Jones Teresa May Kevan Jones Karl McCartney Susan Elan Jones Patrick McLoughlin Tessa Jowell Nigel Mills Barbara Keeley Anne Milton Sadiq Khan Anne Marie Morris David Lammy (AM) Stephen Mosley Ian Lavery David Mowatt Mark Lazarowicz David Mundell Chris Leslie Sheryll Murray Ivan Lewis Robert Neill Tony Lloyd Sarah Newton Andy Love Caroline Nokes Ian Lucas David Nuttall Fiona Mactaggart Matthew Offord Khalid Mahmood Eric Ollerenshaw John Mann Guy Opperman Steve McCabe Jim Paice Michael Mann Neil Parish Kerry McCarthy Mark Pawsey Siobhain McDonagh Eric Pickles John McDonnell Daniel Poulter Alison McGovern Mark Pritchard Jim McGovern Mark Reckless Anne McGuire John Redwood Iain McKenzie Malcolm Rifkind Alan Meale Andrew Robathan Ian Mearns Andrew Rosindell Alun Michael Lee Scott Madeleine Moon Alec Shelbrooke Graeme Morrice Mark Simmonds Graeme Morris Henry Smith George Mudie Mark Spencer Meg Munn Andrew Stephenson Paul Murphy John Stevenson Ian Murray Iain Stewart Lisa Nandy Gary Streeter Fiona O’Donnell Graham Stuart Sandra Osborne Julian Sturdy Albert Owen Robert Syms Teresa Pearce Justin Tomlinson Toby Perkins cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Conservative (118/305) Labour (135/253) Liberal Democrat (33/57) Elizabeth Truss Stephen Pound Andrew Turner Nick Raynsford Martin Vickers Jonathan Reynolds Charles Walker Linda Riordan SNP (1/6) Angela Watkinson Steve Rotheram Mike Weir Mike Weatherley Chris Ruane Sinn Fein (2/5) Heather Wheeler Virendra Sharma Paul Maskey Chris White Barry Sheerman Conor Murphy Craig Whittaker Jim Sheridan Plaid Cymru (1/3) Gavin Williamson Dennis Skinner Johnathan Edwards Rob Wilson Andy Slaughter Green (1/1) George Young Andrew Smith Caroline Lucas Nadhim Zahawi—118 Angela Smith Alliance (1/1) Nick Smith Naomi Long Jack Straw SDLP (3/3) Graham Stringer Mark Durkan Gerry Sutcliffe Alasdair McDonnell Gareth Thomas Margaret Ritchie Stephen Timms DUP (6/8) John Trickett Gregory Campbell Derek Twigg Nigel Dodds Stephen Twigg William McCrea Valerie Vaz Jim Shannon Joan Walley David Simpson Dave Watts Sammy Wilson Alan Whitehead Speaker of the House Chris Williamson John Bercow David Winnick Nigel Evans Mike Wood Lindsay Hoyle David Wright—135 Dawn Primarolo
Conservative Total Labour Total Lib Dem Total Other Total 118 135 33 19 118 (305) = 38% 127 (253) = 53% 28 (57) = 57% 17 (35) = 54% 305/650 = 46% of all MPs have been Councillors
July 2012
Written evidence from Cllr Alycia James (CC 44) — Deciding to stand to be elected as a Councillor for the first time. — The multiple of roles of Councillors: fixer, facilitator and community leader. — Support (or lack of support) from Councils for newly elected councillors. — What more could be done to prepare councillors for their role. — The choice between full involvement and a full-time job and the financial implications of being a councillor. — Overloading of councillors with paperwork and a possible role for caseworkers. — The importance of recognising the roles and skills of Councillors, especially by employers. — How do we get the next generation involved? — Cabinet versus Backbench and Controlling Group versus Opposition. — Deciding to stand for re-election. — How do we make things better and encourage more people to get involved? I was elected for the first time in 2011 for the ward of Warton on Lancaster City Council at the age of 29. Shortly afterwards I was elected Deputy Leader of the Conservative Group, the second biggest group on our Council. I serve on a number of committees and been Chairman and Vice-Chairman of three separate committees within the last year. Originally I studied medicine in London as well as History of Medicine and following on from I entered the business world where I have worked for companies ranging from a small family run business to large multi-nationals. I’m still in business trying to balance work, being a Voice for Pancreatic Cancer UK as well as being a Councillor. People often ask why I decided to stand at the local elections to become a Councillor and I cannot answer that in one sentence but a few of my reasons are echoed by many who also serve their communities. Quite cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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simply, I wanted to “make a difference,” you hear that phrased bounded around but still it is true. I wanted to help make some people’s lives a little bit better, to have a positive impact on the area I hoped to represent. It certainly wasn’t for the money; in local government politicians rarely do the role for the money as to be completely honest the remuneration is terrible. I also felt that I could do a better job than the previous councillor, who nearly had to go to by-election due to non-attendance of meetings. I thought the community deserved better. The other reason why I stood was that I was inspired by a young councillor and friend, who showed me what I could do to help my community and helped me gain the confidence to stand. I needed someone who could see my potential, to encourage me. Only six months before the election I said that I could never put myself forward, as to do so seemed a very scary thing to do, to put yourself out there to be judged by thousands of people but the encouragement he gave me helped me overcome my fears. I wonder how many other people out there, who would make excellent councillors, lack the confidence to put their names forward and what we can all do to help.
Councillors fulfil many roles not least that of leaders of communities and facilitators. Many confuse leadership with doing everything yourself, at first I too fell into this trap. We cannot take on the running of every single project in the area, we as leaders, need to help guide the community, help give them the tools and overall be facilitators. Sometimes you are needed just to get the ball rolling, an odd letter to this organisation or in order to help a project move along, to co-ordinate between the council and community groups. The perfect example in my ward is about allotments, a community group has been trying for some time to get the project moving and a few questions of officers, a challenging question to a cabinet member in council and that little bit of guidance has moved the project on that bit more, given greater motivation to get things done and hopefully I can help keep the momentum up. The residents can gain a sense of achievement for themselves in a project such as this as well as creating a great asset for the whole area which will last for many years to come.
We are quite lucky in our council that we have councillors who range from teenagers through to, I suspect, early eighties and a good ratio of male to female. Overall though, there are a lot of councillors in the over 50s age group and very few councillors from ethnically diverse backgrounds however this may actually be a reflection the very low percentage of people from a BME background who live within the district.i
The question is whether we, as a council, will be able to retain this mixture and balance over the years to come as there are a number challenges it will face, for example, will the students stay on, if the choice between Council and a full-time job comes along, what will they choose?
I don’t think that the council can prepare you properly for your role and I’ve spoken to many other new councillors who have felt the same. When you first get elected you are bombarded with briefings about what departments do but a simple list of what is the responsibility of a parish council, city council and county council would have been ideal. Many new councillors I feel overwhelmed when they first start, myself included, not knowing completely where the lines are drawn, which council and even which department does what. The amount of information is vast, you soon get overloaded but it still does not prepare you. Ideally, the situation would be that you shadow the councillor you’re taking over from for a while before, allowing as smooth a transition as possible for residents, however when you take the seat from a different political party you know this is unlikely to happen. Within a few weeks of being elected I was faced with a particularly unpleasant resident who was very threatening to me, to the extent of me having regular contact with the police about him, the council had no methods to deal with such behaviour and thus provided no support at all. A greater mentoring scheme for new councillors I feel would be most welcome, many experienced councillors have gone through a multitude of the things we start to come across and could help the new ones grow into their roles feeling more supported. I was relatively lucky, outside my group I made friends with councillors all over the country, through the Local Government Association (LGA) and Conservative Councillors Association (CCA) and I even was given a mentor, who I am still in contact with. Many councillors don’t use these organisations and I myself found them a valuable lifeline in learning my new roles.
Being a councillor is not easy though. The amount of time which I commit to the roles I hold is extensive, time off work is very difficult for me to get, if I don’t work then I don’t get paid. I have had to make a choice between my involvement and a properly paid full time job. I now have two part-time jobs which are poorly paid but are willing to be more flexible around my council duties. This is a necessity to me as my council allowance, like many other councils, doesn’t equate to anything like a part-time salary despite the hours, in fact what I get is far below minimum wage. Between casework, meetings, writing speeches, investigating various matters, knocking on doors and the many other things we do as councillors, for me I know the hours I put in regularly exceed that which I did in my previous full-time job. It is exceptionally difficult in our council to have a full-time job and fully participate on council with various committees, especially as many as still, ridiculously held during weekdays with very few meetings out of the 9am-5pm timeframe.
A significant problem which also needs addressed is in regards to the paperwork. There is so much at times it is hard to read it all, especially if you have a job as well, how are you supposed to contribute properly and make decisions in these circumstances when you may not know all the facts? I myself know the paperwork is excessive and I wonder if at times what could be put in 50 words is made in to 500. When you get to a meeting they can often be rubber stamping decisions and may seem pointless to some people. So you may have struggled to wade through many hundreds of pages, taken time off work to attend the meeting to feel that it was all a waste of time. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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I’ve heard of a suggestion about the potential role for caseworkers. I think it is a great idea although the case work is my favorite part and indeed most of the time the most rewarding part of being a councillor but perhaps they could have a part to play in future. To many young councillors it appears that a large number of employers don’t recognize how great being a councillor truly is. The knowledge and skills which I’ve learnt in the last year are probably greater than all my years at university. Sadly, last year when I was looking for a new job I was encouraged to actually play down my role as councillor as it may prevent me from getting a job. I’d become Deputy Leader of the second biggest party on council, I was Vice-chairman of two committees (Personnel and Budget & Performance) and the Chairman of another (The Joint Consultative Committee). I’ve gained in confidence and capability in public speaking and presentations, I’ve learned huge amounts about personnel issues, budget issues and many more. I’ve had to sit down and make some tough decisions over the last year, decisions which affect many other people’s lives and think strategically about the best use of a multi-million pound budget. Despite all this, my achievements were seen by many employers as a negative rather than a positive thing, many were concerned that I would not be able to commit fully to their company. That’s when you face the dilemma of continuing on and in some cases facing financial hardship doing what you were elected to do, and in my case, love, or pursue a potentially less fulfilling but financially rewarding career. Sadly, it is still hard to engage certain groups within communities such as young people. Many are not interested in politics and don’t trust politicians which makes it very difficult to get them to engage with us. I’ve tried so many approaches from Question Time panels, Local Democracy Days, and a number of other things as simple as just talking to them in the street or at events. In part I wish we had ward budgets like some other councils which could be used in part to help reach out to these parts of our communities. Another downside is which applies to both backbench and opposition councillors is that most decisions made are made by cabinet with some going to full council. Being in opposition can mean that you end up having little say about what happens in my own ward at times. In addition to this, a lot of people still get confused between which council does what. In both cases you can find yourself being blamed for actions of other councillors or councils, decisions which were not your own and you could have little or no involvement with. My experience as a councillor has so far lived exceeded my expectations for the most part. I often get letters or emails thanking me from residents but I know that many other councillors here don’t. A survey within our council revealed that many councillors didn’t feel that were getting job satisfaction but for the most part I honestly feel that you get out of it what you put in. My safety campaign is a perfect example, there was a fear among some residents about cold-callers so I gave everyone a no cold caller card to display if they chose and advice about how to keep safe. It was very popular with residents, most especially older ones. It was a simple campaign but very much appreciated. Seeing things I’ve done to help shape your community for the better gives great satisfaction. At times I’ve noticed that it’s sometimes the very small issues which matter the most and the appreciation shown in recognition makes all the long hours worthwhile. Despite all the downsides I will be standing for re-election, in fact I love being a councillor so much I’m standing in the County Council elections too. It has been the most rewarding experience of my life and I cannot recommend it highly enough. I even have my eye of a couple of people who have the potential to be great councillors, I hope that my passion and enthusiasm for the role can rub off on them. There are still things to be done to make it better, to make it easier to take on a role like this and to be able to stay in these positions. First, I believe wholeheartedly that we need to show off our councillors, to show the nation what we really do. Perhaps more will people will want to take on the role if it is portrayed more as something good and worthwhile. Councillors are often subjected to negative press but we need to turn the tides and show the positive things we do. We also need to show to our businesses what a great thing it is to have a councillor on- board, the skills they have from such a role and make it a benefit to have them not an impairment. We need to help guide people, offering more support and encouragement for those thinking of standing and once elected supporting them through the first few months, perhaps year. Perhaps we should consider guiding councils on better forms of training from the very beginning. We must tackle the top-up pension culture, otherwise we will end up (as we already are) with a higher and higher average age of councillor. Making meetings friendlier for those who want and need to have jobs. Councils have to look at the levels of paperwork they produce, reduce it if they can or give people more time to read it when possible, rather than just a few short days. It is time to look again at workload and remuneration for it, if we expect councillors to take on more responsibilities then we must pay them fairly or perhaps introduce shared caseworkers to help take off some of the workload. Councillors play a vital role in their communities and should be recognised as such. There are always going to be up days and down days but overall it is by far the best thing I’ve ever done, I love being a councillor and I would recommend to anyone to take on the challenge. August 2012 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Reference i Full article detailing latest population estimates by ethnic group—Lancashire County Council website.
Written evidence from Cllr Marianne Overton (CC 58) Introduction to Cllr Marianne Overton Marianne is an Independent Councillor who has been elected by the public as a Parish, North Kesteven District and Lincolnshire County Councillor at each election since 1991. Subsequently Marianne was elected as a regional representative for East Midlands and last year as Leader of the Independent Group and Vice Chairman of the Local Government Association. Her community engagement is such that she attains among the highest number of votes in the County with turnouts as high as 70%. Marianne also stood as an MP in 2010 and was one of just a handful of Independent candidates who kept her deposit. Marianne also sits on the board of NHS Lincolnshire. Other posts have included being a governor on the board of the University of Lincoln, Chairman of the Society of Biology, Chairman of Relate Lincolnshire and many local organisations. Marianne has lived and worked in several countries, running expeditions for volunteers in Central Africa. Marianne took part in the Pan-African Peer Reviews, in partnership with the United Cities and Local Government Africa (UCLGA), working to improve the National Local Government Association in Ghana. Marianne is an experienced and qualified teacher of Biology and Science to A level and is involved in running family business interests.
What is different about an Independent Councillor? The approach of Independent Councillors setting an agenda in partnership with their communities. Independents as listening, diverse and representative councillors. Challenges of party politics as a disincentive to local leadership.
Motivation and Disincentives? Many Independents are driven by the desire to achieve something useful in their communities, rather than a desire to be part of a team, but they need both to be effective. Independents need to dare to be different and determined enough to succeed, but sensitive enough to work successfully in a team. Party politics is a major disincentive to all councillors. Community budgets under councillors or “mayors”.
Barriers to Standing for Election, in Practice Size of election areas. Finance. Unfair press coverage. Petty politics, especially in a tribalistic environment, leading to a fear of unfair disadvantage for communities. Time commitment, with competing demands. Party machinery and use of postal votes. Importance of Community engagement and the effect of reducing the number of councillors on the role of engagement.
Role of an Independent Community Leader — Listen: Pickup the issues that matter to people. Sources: Media, people who know, people you know and others at events or behind doors. — Ask widely to get a clear view: Attend and organise meetings, maintain networks, newsletter to residents, respond to correspondence. — Question Authority: Find who is responsible or has the ability to influence. Frame the issues raised into questions to help identify best solutions. What change would be needed to improve the situation? — Test wider opinion: Newsletter to residents, people you know whose opinion you trust. — Identify action Required: cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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— Campaign: Write to press and media, attend and organise meetings, posters, petition, leaflets, door knock, seek resolution with those in authority.
Additional Roles of a Councillor Councillor has additional roles in influencing policy to support local needs. Example: Lincolnshire County Council Waste. Council support for councillor’s work in community leadership is vital. Councillors also have an additional role in influencing National policy to support local needs.
Skills and Training Lincolnshire County and North Kesteven District Councils have both been leaders in this field being among the earliest to win accreditation. The training and officer support is directed towards the course of the Institution, rather than the local leadership role and a number of tasks are prevented on the premise that they are seen as “political”. Not all staff see themselves as serving all councillors. The single-party Executive has no incentive to be inclusive and indeed, may well see an advantage in disenfranchising “opposition” councillors with overt rudeness, even in public meetings. This tribalistic approach is deeply undermining of democratically elected representatives and there is no mechanism to kerb it. This leads to lower turnouts at election and many good councillors leave in order to find something more rewarding to do, reducing the quality of local government. More support is needed in administration, research and individual training budgets. IT support is hampered by long-term contracts which are not fast-moving enough. Cllr Marianne Overton BSc(Hons) Leader of the Independent Group on the National Association of Local Government October 2012
Supplementary written evidence from the Department for Communities and Local Government (CC 00a) Thank you for the opportunity you afforded me of appearing before your committee to discuss the importance of the role of councillors in the community. During our discussions, I undertook to consider and write to you on three points: — the possibility of councils appointing an independent body to make decisions (as opposed to giving advice) about councillors’ allowances; — whether councillors in employment should have the option of receiving loss of earnings compensation; and — the possibility of legislation to prevent employers discriminating against councillors.
Decisions by Independent Body on Allowances The essential elements of any arrangements for setting the remuneration, be it allowances, pay, or pensions, for elected representatives, are an element of objective independence and clear accountability for the decision taken. In this way, those whom through their taxes fund the elected representatives and are served by them can have confidence that their representatives’ remuneration is fair and appropriate As we discussed, under the current arrangements for councillors, independence is provided by the independent remuneration panels to whose recommendations regard must be had. Accountability is ensured by all decisions on allowances being required to be taken in the open by the full council whose members must face their electorate through the ballot box. You asked me whether an authority should be able to put in place an independent body not only to advise on but to decide councillor allowances. As we discussed, I am clear that the allowances are and should be a local matter, and that authorities themselves are best placed to consider what is appropriate in their circumstances. I would see no benefit in having some new central body to make recommendations or to decide allowances across the whole of local government. If the proposal was that each authority should establish an independent panel, or use its existing panel, to decide allowances, then, having reflected on this, it remains my view that it is best for the councillors themselves, with their understanding of their local circumstances, to take the final view on what are appropriate allowances in all the circumstances of their council. Notwithstanding, I note that the Taxpayers’ Alliance has undertaken some research which is critical of the composition of Independent Remuneration Panels. I am open-minded to reform of such procedural processes cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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Loss of Earnings Compensation You suggested that an option may be to provide for loss of earnings compensation for people losing out on their income because of the time they spend on council work, and which would not be available to those who, for whatever reason, did not lose out on their income. Being a councillor is a voluntary public service; it is not a salaried job. In principle, councillors are already compensated for loss of earnings as allowances are intended to ensure that councillors are not out-of-pocket as a result of their public duties. The existing guidance states that the basic allowance, which all councillors receive, is intended to recognise the time commitment of all councillors, including such inevitable calls on their time as meetings with officers and constituents and attendance at political group meetings.
Legislation to Prevent Employers Discriminating Against Councillors In our conversation, I was asked about discrimination by employers. I said that I had not seen any specific cases but that if there was a specific example I would be happy to look at it and consider what was behind it before commenting in a broader sense on any specific issues. That said, I believe the last administration looked into this as part of their consideration as to whether councillors could have paid leave from their employment. They were going to work with a range of employers on a campaign to persuade them that time away from the office should not be viewed as wasted time, but as part of an individual’s training and development. My view however that is this is best achieved locally rather than by direction from the centre. I would hope and expect employers and employees to work together to make provision for an employee being a councillor, or indeed any voluntary work. And I think there is a role here too for councils and councillors, engaging with the businesses in their patch. Such engagement should involve discussion between a councillor or prospective councillor and their employer about the roles and responsibilities of being a councillor, how this might be undertaken in a way that is most practicable for a councillor and employer, and the mutual benefit to both the council and the employer of the skills of such an employee. However I am very clear that this is not the time to further constrain employment laws by, for instance, compelling small businesses to do without one of their workforce at critical moments whilst serving as a councillor. Placing further restrictions on employers when growth is the priority cannot be justified. November 2012
Written evidence from Cllr Robert Knowles (CC 04) Practicalities of being a Councillor Summary The time required to perform the duties and functions of a District Councillor, restricts those able to be a councillor. The allowances paid, after tax, can result in members being out of pocket. Every increasing email traffic and other social media, will doubtless result in few members standing for re-election. I am the leader of Waverley Borough Council, and was first elected to the Council in May 2007, becoming Leader in May 2010. My Council consists of 57 elected members, covering a large rural district with four towns and a number of villages, all are different and have very little in common. As Leader of the Council, I work an average 60 hours a week, and my deputy puts in a similar number of hours, for the huge allowance of £500 (five hundred) a year. I have a cabinet of 10 members, the majority of which put in some 30 hours or more per week on their Executive role. In addition my authority has a number of committees, the Licensing committee of 12 members, sits during the day, which is unusual as most meetings are in the evening, but having to sit to hear applications for various licences, the committee is required to sit during working hours. The Council being the planning authority has four area Planning Committees, these have been introduced to make decision making on the important issue of planning local to the area concerned, this is popular with our residents as it is local councillors making a local decision. My Council moved to this system in 2008, before the Localism Act! However, this requires most of the 57 members to sit on Planning. Each of the four committees sits every 28 days. Overview and Scrutiny Committees, Audit and Standards also require involvement by a large number of elected members. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
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The clear problem, for me as Leader, and the Council, is the small number of members available during the day. It is not practical to be a Cabinet Member without substantial daytime availability, the same applies to Licensing Committee. Employers are not keen and many are not prepared to release employees to attend meetings of Council, and with the ever changing government agenda and almost daily circulars, the need for councillors who are available is even more essential.
The majority of my Council are retired, although I do have 19 and 23 year old members, but both are at University and find committing to any meeting difficult, but both are very keen. Those with full time work, who often commute or have young families can not give the time required to perform even basic council duties. Several younger members did not seek re-election in 2011 after a four year term, being unable to give even a basic amount of time to perform councillor duties.
From October to March each year most meetings start and finish in the dark, the Borough being rural, members travel up to 15 miles in often stormy or icy conditions with a lack of any public transport. With meetings often finishing at 10.00 pm, this is yet another disincentive for people to give their time to serve on the Council Of course for a city or compact urban council, this is not a problem.
A major demand on members’ time is e-mail. It is easy to circulate many emails to a large list of councillors, even 10 years ago this pressure was not there. It is easy to ping an email, when writing and posting a letter took mature thought and action. Members have no secretarial support and can spend many hours each day on email traffic.
I have no doubt that the ease of social media will lead to many members refusing to stand for Council in due course. Councillors are volunteers, not professional politicians, certainly at district level, and a daily barrage of emails, including rude and abuse messages, eventually try members patience, especially as under the 2 tier system, representations are often about county council matters such as highways or school places over which my authority has no jurisdiction. I have even had representations, after the Member of Parliament has failed to satisfy a constituent, asking me to intervene!
The basic allowance paid by my authority is one of the lowest in England, just some £2,300 per annum, before tax, this does not encourage people to stand for council, but the Council has been reluctant to increase this over recent years due to the financial situation. In 2011, the Council held a briefing evening for potential candidates at the May elections, this was non party political and when the basic allowance was announced, there was a clear loss of interest by those who had attended. I was my impression that they were not looking for an income, but were not willing to be councillors at a loss. The public impression that councillors get rich on their allowances is far from the truth in Waverley.
Whilst I recognise that my council could increase the allowances, as recommended by the independent panel, however members do not think the time is right under the present financial difficulties in the country, but this will need to be addressed sooner rather than later.
Local Decision-making
Summary
Whilst local members making local decisions is to be welcomed, there is a need for those decisions to be made at such a level that members are not open to local pressure.
Training is required to maintain a level standard.
Government should not mislead the public of their power under Localism.
As set out above, Waverley returned Planning decisions to local member committees in 2007–08. This clearly has the advantage of local members knowing their own area, but it is demanding on member time. It is important that members making decisions of this type are fully trained and aware of the Regulations, there is good evidence that Town and Parish councils, as consultees, make recommendations not based on planning law under pressure from residents of a Ward of neighbourhood, which if followed at District level would lead to numerous appeals and costs against the authority.
At a district level the majority of neighbourhood involvement is connected to planning issues, and there is a need for government not to mislead the public into believing that they can refuse every application in their area.
There is no doubt that “Localism” is seen as a vehicle to obstruct and refuse planning applications, with little of no regard being given within neighbourhoods of planning guidance or policy, with a complete disregard of the possible outcome of an appeal. April 2012 cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [04-01-2013 15:35] Job: 023547 Unit: PG06 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/023547/023547_w022_steve_CC 41 - Simon Killane.xml
Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev 189
Written evidence from Cllr Simon Killane (CC 41) I am delighted that you are showing an interest in my role as a councillor. I love the job and am very popular with residents etc. It is probably the best job that anyone could imagine! Sadly the process of selection, party politics, support both financial and system is nothing short of appalling! I am a married man with a wife and three young children. I am a Unitary Councillor. The council is dominated by rich old party political men. There are only a handful of councillors with young children. It is clear that if you have time on your hands, have lots of money or are obsessed with party politics then you’re welcome. I don’t even understand why you would need to do a survey on a system that is so utterly dysfunctional. I often call it a “shamocracy”. I am not going to rant on and on about why it is such a rubbish system. Instead I would like to offer you a challenge. Come down to Malmesbury and witness the conditions that an ordinary working family man has to endure to survive mentally and financially in a system that is so rubbish. See how popular I am with the townspeople and the ground breaking things that are happening in our town. Try to match the profile that I have in Malmesbury with the complete frustration that I feel about a local government system that is so utterly unfair, undemocratic, elitist, prejudiced and discriminatory! July 2012
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