VICTORIA

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

FIF'I'Y -THIRD PARLIAMENT

FIRST SESSION

Legislative Assembly

Vol. 437

Spring 1997

[From 11 November to 4 December 1997]

Internet: http://www.viOlet.net.au/vicnet/vicgov /parl/parlia.html

By Authority: VICTORIAN GOVERNMENT PRINTER

The Governor

His Excellency the Honourable Sir JAMES AUGUSTINE GOBBO, AC The Lieutenant-Governor

Her Excellency Professor ADRIENNE E. CLARKE, AO The Ministry

[FROM 6 JANUARY 1997) Premier, Minister for Multicultural Affairs, and Minister for the Arts ...... The Hon. J. G. Kennett, MP

Deputy Premier, Minister for Agriculture and Resources ...... The Hon. P. J. McNamara, MP

Minister for Education ...... The Hon. P. A. Gude, MP

Minister for Industry, Science and Technology ...... The Hon. M. A. Birrell, MLC

Minister for Health, and Minister for Aged Care ...... The Hon. R. I. Knowles, MLC

Minister for Police and Emergency Services, and Minister for Corrections .... The Hon. W. D. McGrath, MP

Minister for Finance, and Minister for Gaming...... The Hon. R. M. Hallam, MLC

Treasurer, and Minister for Multimedia .... , The Hon. A. R. Stockdale, MP

Minister for Small Business, and Minister for Tourism ...... The Hon. Louise Asher, MLC

Minister for Transport ...... The Hon. R F. Cooper, MP

Minister for Roads and Ports ...... , The Hon. G. R Craige, MLC

Minister for Housing, and Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs ...... The Hon. A. M. Henderson, MP

Minister for Tertiary Education and Training, and Minister assisting the Premier on Multicultural Affairs ...... The Hon. P. N. Honeywood, MP

Minister for Planning and Local Government...... The Hon. R. R. C. Maclellan, MP

Minister for Youth and Community Services ...... The Hon. D. V. Napthine, MP

Minister for Sport, and Minister for Rural Development...... The Hon. T. C. Reynolds, MP

Minister for Conservation and Land Management ...... The Hon. M. T. Tehan, MP

Attorney-General, Minister for Fair Trading, and Minister for Women's Affairs ...... The Hon. J. L. M. Wade, MP

Parliamentary Secretary of the Cabinet . . . .. The Hon. Rosemary Varty, MLC

Members of the Legislative Assembly FIFTY-TIlIRD PARLIAMENT - FIRST SESSION Speaker: The Hon. S. J. PLOWMAN Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committees: Mr J. F. McGRATH Temporary Chairmen of Committees: Mr Andrianopoulos, Mr Cole, Mr Cunningham, Mr Jasper, Mr McArthur, Mr Maughan, Mr Perrin, Mr Perton, Mrs Peulich, Mr A. F. Plowman, Mr Richardson, and Mr Seitz. Leader of the Parliamentary Liberal Party and Premier: The Hon. J. G. KENNETf Deputy Leader of the Parliamentary Liberal Party: The Hon. P. A. GUDE Leader of the Parliamentary National Party and Deputy Premier: The Hon. P. J. McNAMARA Deputy Leader of the Parliamentary National Party: The Hon. W. D. McGRATII Leader of the Parliamentary Labor Party and Leader of the Opposition: Mr J. M. BRUMBY Deputy Leader of the Parliamentary Labor Party and Deputy Leader of the Opposition: Mr DEMETRI DOLUS to 23 December 1996 Mr J.W. 1HWAITES from 23 December 1996

Member District P!!!Y Member District P~

Andrianopoulos, Alex Mill Park ALP McArthur, Stephen James Monbulk LP Andrighetto, Florian Narracan LP McCall, Ms Arldrea Lea Frankston LP Ashley, Gordon Wetzel Bayswater LP McGill, Mrs Denise Oakleigh LP Baker, !an Malcolm John Sunshine ALP McGrath, John Francis Warrnamoool NP Batchelor, Peter Thomastown ALP McGrath, William Desmond Wimmera NP Bracks, Stz.hen Phillip Williamstown ALP McLellan, Frederick Peter Frankston East LP • Brown, an John Gippsland West LP Maclellan, Robert Roy Brumb~Ohn Mansfield Broadmeadows ALP Cameron Pakenharn LP Burke, Leonie Therese Prahran LP McNamara, Patrick John Benalla NP Cameron, Robert Graharn Bendigo West ALP ~~' Mrs Judith Carnpbell, Ms Christine Mary Pascoe Vale ALP Essendon ALP Carli, Carlo CObHfiI ALP Ma~, Noel John Rodney NP Clark, Robert William Box H LP Mi ef, Edward Joseph ~ringvale ALP Cole, Neil Donald Melbourne ALP Mildenhall, Bruce Al1in ootscray ALP Coleman, Charles Geoffrey Bennettswood LP Napthine, Or Denis Vincent Portland LP Cooper, Robert Fitzaerald Morrungton LP Pandazopoulos, John Dandenong ALP Cunnin~, Davi James Melton ALP Paterson, Alister Irvine South BarWon LP # Davies, Susan Margaret Gippsland West IND Perrin, David John Bulleen LP Dean, Or Robert Logan Berwick LP Perton, Victor John Doncaster LP Dixon, Martin Frands Dromana LP •• Pescott, Ro~r Mitcham LP Dollis, Demetri Richmond ALP Peulich, Mrs ga Bentleigh LP Do/ele, Robert Keith Bennett Malvern LP Phillips, Wayne Eltharn LP El er, Stephen Noel Ri LP Plowman, Antony Fulton Benambra LP Elliott, Mi5 Lorraine Clare ~~oolbark LP Plowman, Sidney James Evelyn LP Finn, Bemard Thomas ~olds, Thomas Carter Gisborne LP Christo~er T ullarnarine LP RiChardson, John Ingles Forest Hill LP Garbutt, Sherryl Maree Bundoora ALP Rowe, Gary James Cranbourne LP Gillett, Ms Mary Jane Wembee ALP Ryan, Peter Julian NP Gude, Phillip Archibald Hawthorn LP savage, Russelllrwin ~~a::::d South !NO Haermeyer, Andre Yan Yean ALP Seitz,Geo~ Keilor ALP Hamilton, Keith Graeme Morwell ALP Shardey, Helen Jean Caulfield LP Henderson, Mrs Ann ~ Geelong LP Sheehan, Anthony John Northcote ALP Hone~ood, Phillip Nevi e Warranayte LP Smith, Emest Ross Glen Waverley LP Hulls, Rob Justin Niddrie ALP Smith, !an Winton Polwarth LP Jas~ Kenneth Stephen Murray Valley NP Spry, Gar:ry Howard Bellarine LP Je . , Geoffrey Paul Ballarat West LP S~gall, Barry Edward John, Michael Bendigo East LP ector Swan Hill NP Kennett, Je~ Gibb Burwood LP Stockdale, Alan Robert Brighton LP I

• Resigned 31 December 1996 •• Resigned 11 November 1997 # Elected 1 February 1997 Heads of Parliamentary Departments

Council - Clerk of the Parliaments and Clerk of the Legislative Council: Mr A. V. Bray Assembly - Clerk of the Legislative Assembly: Mr P. J. Mithen Hansard - Chief Reporter (Acting): Ms C. J. Williams Library - Librarian: Mr B. J. Davidson Parliamentary Services - Secretary: Ms C. M. Haydon RESIGNATION OF MEMBER

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 929

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 Yours sincerely,

Roger Pescott, M.P.

Honourable members interjecting. The SPEAKER (Hon. S. J. Plowman) took the chair at 2.05 p.m. and read the prayer. Mr Thwaites - On a point of order, Mr Speaker, will you advise the house when an election will be RESIGNATION OF MEMBER called for the seat of Mitcham?

The SPEAKER - Order! I advise the house that a The SPEAKER - Order! Following the normal vacancy has occurred with the resignation of Roger protocol, consideration will be given to the Pescott, the honourable member for Mitcham, who resignation and to an appropriate time for the has written to me as follows: by-election to be called. I have not given the matter any consideration, as the resignation letter has just Dear Mr Speaker, been received. I will give it due consideration in the normal way. I resign my seat in the Parliament as member for Mitcham, with effect from 2.00 p.m. today. Mr Bracks - On the point of order, Mr Speaker, can you advise the house of the sort of advice you I advise the house that his resignation was effective will be seeking in deciding on the timing of the immediately the Speaker received the letter, which by-election for the seat of Mitcham and whether you was hand delivered to me at approximately will take certain factors into account in -- 1.45 p.m. The letter continues: Honourable members interjecting. Prindpal among my reasons is the government's intention to alter the role and function of the The SPEAKER - Order! I will take advice from Auditor-General. Having watched the government's the Clerk, who normally advises me on these position unfold, I have been uncomfortable from the matters, and I will make a determination in due beginning. I expected commonsense to prevail. It has course. not. In my considered view, the government's proposals compromise the system of checks and balances which are at the core of our system of government. To me, they run fundamentally counter to QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE the public interest.

I was elected by the people of Mitcham both as a Ambulance services: crews Liberal and as a member of this government If, after lengthy deliberation, I cannot support the Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - I refer the government's legislation, my options resolve to one. It Premier to the Auditor-General's report that will be has been a long time since I have found the avenues for tabled today, to a previous report of the serious debate within the Liberal Party satisfactory. Yet Auditor-General into the ambulance service, and to I could not bring myself to vote with the Labor Party. the fact that the government has privatised Accordingly, I must surrender my seat in the non-emergency ambulance transport, selling the Parliament. service to companies which staff each ambulance with only one properly qualified ambulance officer While I regret the cost and inconvenience caused by a and which do not have the same supervision or by-election, I see it as a further part of my protest in quality control mechanisms as the that it will be a plebiscite on the Auditor-General government-operated emergency ambulance service. legislation. The issue should not be allowed to die. Is it a fact that privatised non-emergency ambulance crews are now being despatched to ambulance In leaving the Parliament, I wish all honourable emergency jobs for which they are neither properly members well in successfully addressing the difficult trained nor properly skilled? challenges of our times, and in creating a better Victoria for all Victorians, the goal we all share. Mr KENNETT (Premier) - The honourable member referred to the Auditor-General's report that I think will be tabled in the house later today. I QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

930 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 cannot prejudge that report. I have not seen it, They have repaired the damage that was done by although apparently the honourable member has, in the previous Labor administration which, should it whole or in part. Therefore, I cannot answer his ever be given the opportunity to govern again, question. would once again put its own self-interest and its dealings with sectional interest groups above the Public sector: debt reduction interest of the public as a whole.

Mr FINN (Tullamarine) - Will the Premier This is good news, and it reflects the new optimism outline to the house the government's progress in that exists in Victoria. Our intention is to drive both repairing Victoria's public finances, and in sets of figures down before the next election, which particular, the net public sector debt? is due in the first Saturday in March in 2000.

Mr KENNETI (Premier) -This is clearly one Auditor-General: independence question I can answer! When the government came to office in 1992 it inherited a debt of approximately Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - I refer the $32 billion. That was considerably higher than the Premier to the resignation today of the honourable debt that existed when the liberal government left member for Mitcham and to the honourable office in 1982, when it was $11.3 billion. member's grave concerns about the proposed legislation concerning the Auditor-General. Will the As of Friday, as a result of both the privatisation Premier now give a guarantee that the legislation program and better management by the government will not proceed until after the by-election for the of the community's resources, the debt has been seat of Mitcham? reduced to $11.7 billion. That is only $400 million more than it was in 1982, which is a very good Mr KENNETI (Premier) - I thank the now outcome. It reflects the extent to which the retired member for Bennettswood for at least government, in partnership with the bureaucracy providing you with a question that is relevant. You and the public, has been able to turn the situation have not had to rely on the Age or the Herald Sun or around dramatically. It probably means that the anything else; you have actually been quick on your state of Victoria is now paying some $800 million feet. less in interest than it was when we came to office five years ago. Mr Dollis - On a point of order, Mr Speaker, the member in question is the honourable member for That has had a great impact when you look at net Mitcham. He has not been the honourable member sector public debt as a percentage of gross state for Bennettswood for some time, which shows the product. In 1982 the former conservative Premier's knowledge -- government had a debt-to-GSP ratio of about 24 per cent. That increased considerably to more Mr KENNETI - I accept the correction. than 30 per cent under the Cain and Kirner governments. As a result of our reduction in debt, The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable debt as a percentage of GSP is now down to 9 per member for Bennettswood was showing some cent. It is an extraordinary reduction. concern, too!

With the privatisation of gas and public transport in Mr KENNETI - I thank the honourable member particular yet to come, I hope we will be able to for Richmond. I know he takes more interest in those bring down the actual debt from $11.7 billion to on our side than he does in those on his own. I can something like $7 billion or $8 billion, therefore assure him that we are looking forward with great reducing the debt ration from 9 per cent to 5 per cent relish to the next six months as the machinations in from a high of 32 per cent during the Cain Labor the Labor Party continue. As to the question years. That $800 million saving gives us a provided by my former colleague to the Deputy considerable amount of flexibility to do a range of Leader of the Opposition, the answer is no. things, such as providing a number of services and continuing along the path of reducing taxation levels Water industry: relief grant scheme in this state for citizens and for industry. Mr MAUGHAN (Rodney) - Will the Minister I thank the people of Victoria who, together with our for Youth and Community Services advise the house public servants, have delivered those outcomes. of the government's moves to ensure that Victorians QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 931 in regional and rural areas have access to the water last year the management of the scheme was handed reliefgrantscherne? to the Department of Human Services. The department examined the situation in consultation Or NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and with the Treasurer and from January 1998 is able to Community Services) - I thank the honourable extend the scheme to regional and rural Victoria. member for Rodney for his important question, Those areas will have exactly the same access as because the issue he raises is of concern to people in Melbourne metropolitan consumers. The scheme is regional and rural Victoria. additional to the existing concessional services and payments available to holders of pensioner and Ms Campbell interjected. health cards in Melbourne and in regional and rural Victoria. I am pleased to advise that the government Or NAPTHINE - Although the honourable is doing something positive for country people by member for Pascoe Vale interjects to say she is not extending the scheme to regional and rural Victoria interested in the rights of people of regional and in January 1998. rural Victoria, we on this side of the house are concerned to ensure that those people have access to Metropolitan Ambulance Service: services at a reasonable rate. outsourcing

Recently the government announced sweeping Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - I refer the reforms to water services in Victoria. Those reforms, Premier to the fact that in his report no. 49 to which are probably the most significant water Parliament the Auditor-General earlier this year service reforms in Victoria this century, will result in made serious criticisms of the outsourcing and an average reduction in the bills of water consumers privatisation contracts of the Metropolitan across the state of about 18 per cent, which is a Ambulance Service. Will the government admit that significant outcome. it is has wasted millions of dollars on outsourcing and privatisation contracts that would have been A $450 million package has been injected into better spent on more ambulances being out on the regional and rural Victoria. It will result in improved roads saving lives? water quality, improved waste water and sewage disposal in line with EPA standards, and the Mr KENNETI (Premier) - I feel very sorry for creation of new jobs as the works are put in place - the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, who is clearly and it will deliver the lower water prices I referred out of his depth. If he were as interested in the to. In addition to that major reform, I am pleased to subject as he professes to be he would have known advise the house that the government will extend that since 1993-94 an extra $30 million has been the water relief grant scheme to water consumers in provided to the Metropolitan Ambulance Service on regional and rural Victoria, commencing on a recurrent basis to fund initiatives aimed at 1 January next year. improving its responsiveness to the community. That includes an approximate 20 per cent increase in The water relief grant scheme provides one-off emergency services cover, and 12 new ambulance assistance for eligible consumers who are Wlable to stations have been opened. meet their water or sewerage accounts due to exceptional circumstances or temporary financial If the honourable member is not interested in my problems. People can apply to the water relief grant answer that is fine, but I direct your attention, scheme and their degree of hardship will be Mr Speaker, to the fact that he asked a question. You assessed. If they meet the requirements, grants will are not interested in my answer, is that right? If the be provided. In that way families will be able to honourable member is not interested in the answer it re-establish themselves and continue to be provided proves he is not interested in the question, and I for. have no intention of answering it.

The scheme, which was originally introduced in National Motor Vehicle Theft Task Force 1980 by the former Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works, operated throughout the 10 years of Mr OIXON (Dromana) - Will the Minister for Labor government. But that government did nothing Police and Emergency Services inform the house of to extend the scheme to regional and rural Victoria. the determinations of the National Motor Vehicle Subsequently the MMBW was replaced by the Theft Task Force? current metropolitan water authorities and in July QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

932 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997

Mr W. D. McGRATH (Minister for Police and thieves. A component identification system would Emergency Services) - I thank the honourable enable law enforcement agencies to break the cycle member for his question and for his interest in this more readily than at the moment. The task force subject. Honourable members may be aware that the recommendations attack thefts on two fronts: firstly, Premiers and chief ministers, as a result of an those who steal when they have the opportunity; initiative of our Premier, established under the and, secondly, professional car thieves. The task nation's anti-crime strategy the Motor Vehicle Theft force report is well considered and, on behalf of all Task Force. The chairmanship of the task force was governments that participated through the Leaders given to Leon Daphne, the managing director of Forum, I congratulate the chairman, Nissan Australia and president of the Richmond Mr Leon Daphne, on the work he and his committee Football Gub. did to bring it to fruition.

Some months ago the task force produced a draft Public transport: automatic ticketing report. The final report, which contains a number of recommendations, was released at the Australasian Mr BATCHELOR (Thomastown) -It is Police Ministerial Council, which met in Adelaide wonderful to see the sobering impact a resignation last Thursday. It is important to realise that has on the government benches! something like 122 000 vehicles are stolen each year across Australia. That represents a cost of $1 billion Honourable members interjecting. to the community per year with $650 million worth of insurance costs and the remainder as social and Mr BATCHELOR -It will be interesting to see associated costs. whether it will run a candidate or just give up!

The National Motor Vehicle Theft Task Force The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable devised a theft reduction plan and recommended member's comments are not helping matters. The the establishment of a National Motor Vehicle Theft honourable member, with his question without Reduction Council representing all the key notice. stakeholders, including the motor vehicle and insurance industries, law enforcement agencies and Mr BATCHELOR - I refer the Minister for the community. The report also recommended Transport to evidence given to the Administrative detailed information system requirements and Appeals Tribunal last week, when the cost of the registration procedures through to juvenile Onelink project to the PTC was described as being prevention frameworks. Police and motor $250 million by the chairman of the PIe, registration agencies will be able to access a national Mr Lindsay Maxsted, as $400 million by Mr Peter database to more easily identify stolen vehicles. Noble from the Department of Treasury and Finance, and as around $350 million by Mr Richard The report also recommended that engine Howson, a director of Onelink. immobilisers be standard equipment for all new vehicles and the establishment of incentive schemes What is the correct and current estimate of the cost to encourage voluntary application of security of proceeding with the Onelink contract? Will the systems to existing vehicles. It further recommended truth come out only if the Auditor-General is not that a component identification scheme be put in nobbled by the legislation that has led to the place that would cost the motor vehicle resignation of the honourable member for Mitcham? manufacturers something like $15 million a year. Between 70 and 75 per cent of vehicle thefts are Mr COOPER (Minister for Transport) - The opportunistic thefts by young people. In many cases 10-year contract with Onelink for the installation of the cars are torched which causes additional an automatic ticketing system depends on a number hardship. Around 25 to 30 per cent are stolen by of factors occurring during those 10 years, not the professional car thieves. least of which will be the patronage of the system. I can only take the honourable member's word for the The SPEAKER - Order! The minister has been estimates he has given - and that, of course, puts responding for about 4 minutes. It may be me in an awkward position, because we all know opportunistic for him to wind up. how good the honourable member's word is!

Mr W. D. McGRATH - Between 25 and 30 per Honourable members interjecting. cent of vehicles are stolen by professional car QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 933

Mr COOPER - Clearly, if over those 10 years attention to the feedback we get, and the response patronage sinks to the same kinds of levels the PTC we have had to the additional services has been had under the Labor government, we would be excellent. looking at a cost of $250 million or so. If patronage continues to increase as it has done under the good Honourable members will be interested to learn that stewardship of this government, the cost of the we have extended the very popular and successful system could increase over the 10 years to perhaps stationeers program to rural Victoria. I recently went $400 million or so. The system depends on up to Euroa to launch the rural stationeers program. patronage and also on a reduction in fare evasion. The estimates the honourable member suggests were Mr McNamara interjected. given to the AAT are purely that - estimates. Mr COOPER - The Deputy Premier reminds me V!Line: passenger services that I promised I would give the local community groups who were involved a key to the station, and Mr JASPER (Murray Valley) - Will the Minister they have in fact been given a key. The statewide for Transport outline to the house actions being program that I launched at Euroa involves the Euroa taken by the government to improve passenger gardening club and the local Apex club, as well as a services in country Victoria. lot of former PIC employees who live in the area and who are interested in continuing to participate Mr COOPER (Minister for Transport) - I thank in the system. the honourable member for Murray Valley for his question and for his ongoing interest in passenger Mr McNamara interjected. services in rural Victoria, which have improved significantly since 1992. Most honourable members Mr COOPER - The Deputy Premier reminds me will be aware that the V/Line Passenger service has that they are all good supporters of his at election been one of the great success stories of the time. The rural stationeers program shows the government. In 1996-97 there was a 4.1 per cent wonderful community spirit that exists among increase in country passenger services. The people who are keen to help and who have created 7.3 million passengers carried by V/Line Passenger the atmosphere that has led to the increase in last year was the highest total since 1954-55. It was VJLine Passenger patronage. I am confident that an outstanding performance by the people who run patronage will continue to increase and that country the service, particularly the staff on the ground. people will continue to flock back to public transport in the same sorts of numbers they have since 1992. In response to that amazing and wonderful increase in services for the third year in a row, I announced Public transport: automatic ticketing that additional services would commence in country Victoria from 7 September. Those services will have Mr BATCHELOR (Thomastown) - I refer the an impact on the Bendigo line, which is showing the Minister for Transport to evidence given at the highest growth in the VJLine network. That will Administrative Appeals Tribunal last week by also assist passengers travelling to Sunbury, Mr Peter Noble, a senior official from the Kyneton and Castlemaine. More weekend services Department of Treasury and Finance, who said that have also been introduced, encouraging people to the cost of cancelling the Onelink contract in 1995 leave their cars at home and travel to Melbourne for was $50 million and that a good estimate of the special events such as the football. People travelling cancellation cost in 1997 was $90 million. I ask the from Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo, Gippsland and minister whether the senior Treasury official's Stony Point - on the Mornington Peninsula - to statement is correct? Melbourne to attend major events are enjoying better and increased services. Mr COOPER (Minister for Transport) - Again I say to the honourable member for Thomastown that Commuters are being offered additional weekday I have no knowledge of what was given in evidence services, while off-peak travellers now have a better at the AAT hearing. However, as I have previously opportunity to plan their journeys. That is a major informed the house, the government continues to plus for people travelling on the Ballarat and work with Onelink to try to get the system up and Bendigo lines. These additional services have been running. We are not in a pOSition to commit introduced as a result of the surveying of and direct ourselves to the cancellation of the project. We feedback from VJLine customers. We pay a lot of QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

934 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 believe Onelink can get the system up and information by way of interpretive signs for the running-- general public.

Mr Pandazopoulos - It's a mess! Funds from this important program will also be allocated to a project at Lindsay Island, near Mr COOPER - The honourable member for Mildura; burial sites on that island must be Dandenong clearly shows his ignorance by saying it protected because of their Significance. Some weeks is a mess. He does not know anything about it: he ago, in company with Shaun Stevens, the Aboriginal could not know anything about it. cultural officer, I had the· great pleasure of visiting Lindsay Island. It was a special and moving Honourable members interjecting. experience to be able to stand among the burial sites on that island. The program will provide the The SPEAKER - Order! The minister should opportunity to further protect the burial sites, and it ignore the interjections and complete his answer. will certainly promote the protection and preservation of other important Aboriginal heritage Mr COOPER - The honourable member for sites in Victoria. Dandenong is so worried about his preselection that he is prepared to say and do anything. Berendale special school

The SPEAKER - Order! The minister should Mr MILDENHALL (Footscray) - I refer the come back to the question. Minister for Education to the finding of Mr Justice Beach in the Supreme Court last Friday, that the Mr COOPER - He is as wrong as the state government discriminated against honourable member for Thomastown has been on intellectually disabled students from Berendale many occasions. We are not in the situation of special school by kicking them out of school when having to worry about cancellation costs because we they turned 18. are not contemplating cancellation. Does the minister intend to appeal against Mr Justice Aborigines: heritage sites Beach's order that the students be allowed to return to school or will he abide by the ruling of the Mr ELDER (Rip on) - Will the Minister Supreme Court and end this sorry debacle which has responsible for Aboriginal Affairs advise the house already cost Victorian taxpayers hundreds of on funding allocated for the protection and thousands of dollars, and caused enormous anxiety management upgrade program to ensure the to more than 1000 disabled students and their restoration and preservation of Aboriginal heritage families? sites across Victoria? Mr McNamara - On a point of order, Mrs HENDERSON (Minister responsible for Mr Speaker, is the matter still before the courts? Aboriginal Affairs) - I am pleased to inform the house of a unique funding program for the The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable protection of Aboriginal sites across Victoria. The member for Footscray may assist the house: if the $386 000 program will allow the long-term matter is still before the courts, clearly it would be protection and management of Significant sub judice. Aboriginal sites throughout Victoria. There has been consultation with Aboriginal communities, local Mr MILDENHALL - It is clearly not now before government, landowners and particularly the courts. archaeological consultants in developing a strategic plan to properly manage Aboriginal sites. An Mr GUDE (Minister for Education) - This matter example of a site to be funded under the program is recently came before Mr Justice Beach of the the Merri Creek Aboriginal school site, established Supreme Court, as the honourable member said. The in the 1830s at the junction of the Merri Creek and present pOSition on the specific question raised is the Yarra River. That site was one of the most that his honour has not given his written decision on important camping places for Aboriginal people his finding; I understand it is not unusual for him to who gathered in Melbourne during the last century. take several days to do so. In those circumstances, it The program will allow a plan to be developed to is impossible for me, the government or anybody manage that site and to provide accurate QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 935 else to make an informed decision on whether it having computer assistance or large-print papers. would be appropriate to appeal that decision. Those special arrangements acknowledge the distinctive needs of a group of youngsters who have When the written advice comes to me, as minister, I struggled through adversity to reach the VCE leveL will give it due consideration. I assure the house I It is sensational that those young people have been will make an informed judgment. supported in that way by many people, including those at the Board of Studies. VCE: examinations VCE students will receive their results on Mr LUPTON (Knox) - Will the Minister for 12 December via a dial-in service and on Education inform the house of the progress of this 15 December by mail. All honourable members year's Victorian Certificate of Education (VCE) should praise and celebrate the hard work of our examinations? VCE students in the past year. The government wishes them well- and I would like to think the Honourable members interjecting. Labor Party would also wish them well although that seems unlikely, from the chatter on the Mr GUDE (Minister for Education) -It is opposition benches. That is a shame. interesting that all we get from the Labor Party is whining and carping, whingeing and moaning, The government wishes them well in their future bitching and complaining, negative comments and endeavours, whether they be in further education or knocking - never a decent question because of the the work force. At the same time, the government policy void on the opposition benches. thanks the teachers who have guided our young people through this most important year. Put I am pleased to inform the house of more good news simply: they have all done a fantastic job! on the progress of VCE examinations. This year our secondary education system is conducting written Ambulance services: crews examinations, which commenced on 28 October and will conclude on 20 November. About 53 500 Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - I ask the Premier students will sit those written examinations. Almost whether it is government policy to allow privatised all students sat the English examination on non-emergency ambulance crews to be dispatched to 31 October at some 600 locations throughout the emergency jobs under lights and sirens for which state and were supervised by about 1300 people. All they are neither properly skilled nor properly went well, as one would have hoped. I acknowledge trained. the work of the people who were responsible for coordinating those locations so our youngsters had Mr KENNElT (Premier) - I thank the the best access to exam locations. honourable member for the riveting question. As you know, Mr Speaker, to ensure we have as many This year about 92 VCE written examinations will be of our major ambulances as possible available for conducted in Victoria; that means about 450 000 emergency cases, we have entered into a range of papers will be marked by 1600 assessors who will be agreements to provide transportation for what we paid for their tasks by the Board of Studies. It is call non-urgent cases. The system is working very important to note, given the recent remarks of the well. Often the people manning them are former honourable member for Footscray about Third ambulance officers. They are well trained -- World rates, that the examination markers will receive average payments of $27 per hour - which, Mr Thwaites - Some of them are. as honourable members know, is a rate well above the Third World rates claimed by the honourable Mr KENNETI - Now the Deputy Leader of the member. Also, those payments are in addition to Opposition says some of them are! That did not salaries received by the markers, most of whom are come out in his question, of course. Mr Speaker, I full-time teachers. can assure you that this is a good way of making sure that if people just want transport from one I also acknowledge the tremendous work done by facility to another, particularly if they want transport the Board of Studies in making special arrangements from repatriation -- for about 1200 youngsters to sit their examinations in some form of non-standard manner - that is, Mr Thwaites - On a point of order on the having extended time, having a scribe or a reader, question of relevance, the question relates to QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

936 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 whether privatised crews are dealing with understanding of the practicalities involved in emergency cases. looking after people in need. We have a good system that is continuing to improve for the benefit of the The SPEAKER - Order! I do not uphold the public. point of order. We are carrying approximately 20 000 patients a Mr KENNETI - As I was explaining before I month by ambulance, and in more than 90 per cent was interrupted by the Deputy Leader of the of cases the response time is 14 minutes, which is Opposition, the government has put in a below the target time of 16 minutes. The condition of dual-tracking system. It is designed specifically to our ambulance service is a credit to the officers ensure that, in a managed environment, those in involved, and the public can continue to have great greatest need get access to the best-equipped confidence in it. ambulances - MICAs, and so on. The other system allows for the transportation of those cases that one Rural Victoria: Partnerships for Growth can describe only -- Mr PA TERSON (South Barwon) - Will the Honourable members interjecting. Minister for Rural Development inform the house of the benefits for rural communities in the latest The SPEAKER - Order! We have been doing strategy under the Partnerships for Growth pretty well so far today. Let's not spoil it. program?

Mr KENNETI - I can only say that it is a good Mr REYNOLDS (Minister for Rural system. As to whether they are doing emergencies, I Development) - The Partnerships for Growth have no idea, but let me say -- program has been very successful in delivering results in rural Victoria. The program has four main Mr Thwaites - Should they? strategies. Investment, infrastructure and the support and encouragement of local business are The SPEAKER - Order! The deputy leader has three; and the fourth and most important is the rural asked his question and should cease interjecting community development scheme. Under that across the table. scheme $13 million from the Community Support Fund is delivering projects of lasting community Mr KENNETI - If you were a victim of an benefit throughout country Victoria, and the accident or a patient with an illness that could be 150th project was announced in Wonthaggi a couple described as urgent and for one reason or another a of weeks ago. MICA or other appropriate ambulance could not get to you, wouldn't you rather be transported in one of The projects are aimed at enhancing and building the ambulances that normally transport non-urgent community assets and are funded on a patients, bearing in mind that most of the drivers are dollar-for-dollar basis up to a maximum of $50 000. former ambulance officers? If there were no The quality of community facilities and assets often emergency vehicles available to carry emergency influences the decisions companies make to invest in cases, I am sure that if it were your child or your rural Victoria. Therefore, the program is particularly mother you would like the assistance of crew important in enhancing the ability of country towns members who in the main are ambulance-trained to attract business. officers. In an endeavour to widen the application of the Mr Thwaites interjected. Partnerships for Growth program and to encourage greater community participation, I have written to Mr KENNETI - It is easy for the honourable all service dubs suggesting that they, in conjunction member to interject. The reality is that, as he found with their shires, take up the challenge to build or out when he asked his last question, we have improve community assets. They are often looking supplied more ambulances. There will always be for projects to undertake; and in this instance, with occasions when emergency vehicles are not the government's support, they could double their available. That being the case, would the honourable money and achieve so much more. member rather have patients sitting by the side of the road doing nothing? The honourable member Projects must be auspiced through local councils and shows no consistency in his question and no approved by the department. Therefore, I exhort SCRUTINY OF ACTS AND REGULATIONS COMMITTEE

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 937

those service clubs in the 47 municipalities in Agriculture Victoria Services Pty. Ltd. - Report for the Victoria that have a rural aspect to be part of the year 1996-97 program so they can benefit their communities even more than they do at the moment. Ambulance Service Victoria - Metropolitan Region - Report for the year 1996-97 The SPEAKER - Order! From time to time the Chair has had occasion to lecture the house, as one Ambulance Service Victoria - North Eastern Region - member suggested perhaps somewhat pompously, Report for the year 1996-97 about question time decorum. I point out that, given the reasonable decorum today, 14 questions have Ambulance Service Victoria - North Western been answered, which is a significant improvement. Region - Report for the year 1996-97

SCRUTINY OF ACTS AND Ambulance Service Victoria - South Western REGULATIONS COMMITTEE Region - Report for the year 1996-97

Alert Digest No. 10 Ambulance Service Victoria - Western Region­ Report for the year 1996-97 Mr RYAN (Gippsland South) presentedAlerl Digest No. 10 of 1997 on: Auditor-General-

Heath Services (St Andrews Hospital) Bill Special Report No. 50 - Metropolitan Ambulance Service: Fulfilling a vital community need­ St Andrew's Foundation Bill Ordered to be printed Special Report No. 51 - Victorian Rural Residential Tenancies Bill Ambulance Services: Fulfilling a vital community need - Ordered to be printed Education (Preschools) Bill Board of Studies - Report for the year 1996-97 Gas Industry (Further Amendment) Bill Casterton Memorial Hospital- Report for the year Gas Safety Bill 1996-97

Alpine Resorts (Management) Bill Central Wellington Health Service - Report for the year 1996-97 Rail Corporations (Amendment) Bill Chief Electricallnspector - Report of the Office for the Water Acts (Further Amendment) Bill year 1996-97

Audit (Amendment) Bill Colac Community Health Services - Report for the year 1996-97 (two papers) together with appendix. Country Fire Authority - Report for the year 1996-97 Laid on table. Crown Land (Reserves) Act 1978 - Section 170A Ordered to be printed. Order granting, under Section 170, a lease in the Albert Park Reserve PAPERS Education Department - Report for the year 1996-97 Laid on table by Clerk: Financial Management Act 1994 - Reports of the Minister for Health that he had Adult, Community and Further Education Board - Report for the year 1996-97 (a) received the 1996-97 Annual Reports of the­ Coleraine District Hospital and Aged Care Services Adult Parole Board - Report for the year 1996-97 Lome Community Hospital Omeo District Hospital PAPERS

938 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997

Otway Health and Community Service Legal Ombudsman - Report for the period ended 30 June 1997 Penshurst and District Memorial Hospital Terang and Mortlake Health Service Legal Practice Board - Report for the period ended 30 June 1997 Timboon and District Hospital and Community Health Centre Local Authorities Superannuation Board - Report for Upper Murray Health and Community Services the year 1996-97 Yarram and District Health Service Members of Parliament (Register of Interests) Act (b) not received the 1996-97 Annual Reports of the - 1978 - Cumulative Summary of Returns September 1997 - Ordered to printed Alpine Health Group Bright District Hospital and Health Services Museum of Victoria - Report for the year 1996-97 Myrtleford and District War Memorial Hospital National Gallery of Victoria - Report for the year Tawonga and District General Hospital 1996-97 Geelong Hospital - Report for the year 1996-97 (two National Parks Advisory Counci1- Report for the year papers) 1996-97 Geelong Perfonning Arts Centre Trust - Report for the Natural Resources and Environment Department - year 1996-97 Report for the year 1996-97 (two papers) Generation Victoria (Ecogen Energy) - Report for the Nurses Board - Report for the year 1996-97 year 1996-97

Pharmacy Board - Report for the year 1996-97 Grace McKellar Centre - Report for the year 1996-97

Planning and Environment Act 1987 - Notices of Hamilton Base Hospital - Report for the year 1996-97 approval of amendments to the following Planning Schemes: Healthit Limited - Report for the year 1996-97 Alexandra Planning Scheme - No. SL5 Human Services - Report for the year 1996-97 All Metropolitan Planning Schemes - No. RLl80 Infertility (Medical Procedures) Act 1984 - Report for Alpine Resorts Planning Scheme the year 1996-97 by the Secretary, Department of Bright Planning Scheme - No. SLS Human Services to the Minister for Health pursuant to S.22(4) Cranbourne Planning Scheme - No. 1213 Delatite Planning Scheme - No. SLS Justice Department - Report for the year 1996-97, with the following AppendiCes - Gannawarra Planning Scheme - No. 12 Appendix A: Report of Operations of the Equal Greater Bendigo Planning Scheme - Nos. L61, Opportunity Commission for the year 1996-97 - L63,L65 Ordered to be printed Hume Planning Scheme - No. L30 Appendix B: Report of Operations of the Kingston Planning Scheme - No. L29 Guardianship and Administration Board for the year 1996-97 Knox Planning Scheme - No. L142 Appendix C: Report of Operations of the Office of Melbourne Planning Scheme - Nos. L285, RL180 the Public Advocate for the year 1996-97- Melton Planning Scheme - No. L85 Ordered to be printed Narracan Planning Scheme - No. SLS Kilmore and District Hospital- Report for the year 1996-97 Port Phillip Planning Scheme - No. L47 Victoria Planning Provisions - No. V4 ROYAL ASSENT

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Wannambool Planning Scheme - No. L24 West Gippsland Healthcare Group - Report for the year 1996-97 Whitehorse Planning Scheme - Nos. L8, L9, LIS Whittlesea Planning Scheme - No. LI42 Wonthaggi and District Hospital- Report for the year 1996-97 Yarra Planning Scheme - No. RLI80 Yarra Ranges Planning Scheme - No. L75 ROYAL ASSENT Public Prosecutions - Report of the Director, Message read advising royal assent on 5 November Committee and Office for the year 1996-97 to: Queen Elizabeth Centre - Report for the year 1996-97 Commonwealth Powers (Family Law-Children) (Amendment) Bill Regulator-General- Report of the Office for the year 1996-97 Education (Work Experience) Bill Seymour District Memorial Hospital- Report for the Financial Institutions Legislation (Amendment) year 1996-97 Bill State Training Board - Report for the year 1996-97 Forests (Dunstan Agreement) (Amendment) Bill Statutory Rules under the following Acts: Port Services (Amendment) Bill Administration and Probate Act 1958 - S.R No. 117 Road Transport (Dangerous Goods) (Amendment) Bill County Court Act 1958 - S.R Nos. 113, 114 Environment Protection Act 1970 - S.R. No. 120 APPROPRIATION MESSAGES Gaming Machine Control Act 1991 - S.R No. 121 Messages read recommending appropriations for: Health Act 1958 - S.R. No. 119 Alpine Resorts (Management) Bill Subordinate Legislation Act 1994 - S.R. No. 115 Supreme Court Act 1986 - S.R Nos. 116, 118 Audit (Amendment) Bill Subordinate Legislation Act 1994 - Education (Preschools) Bill Minister's exception certificates in relation to Statutory Rule Nos. 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118 Gas Industry (Further Amendment) Bill Minister's exemption certificate in relation to Gas Safety Bill Statutory Rule No. 119 Treasury and Finance Department - Report for the Health Services (St Andrews Hospital) Bill year 1996-97 Rail Corporations (Amendment) Bill Vicfleet Pty. Ltd. - Financial Statement for the year 1996-97 Residential Tenancies Bill

Victoria Police - Report for the year 1996-97 Water Acts (Further Amendment) Bill

Victorian Casino and Gaming AuthOrity - Report for BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE the year 1996-97 Program Victorian Funds Management Corporation - Report for the year 1996-97 Mr GUDE (Minister for Education) - I move:

Victorian Superannuation Board - Report for the year That, pursuant to sessional order no. 6(3)- 1996-97 BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

940 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997

(a) notice of motion no. 1 - Approval of Upper Yarra brought forward in accordance with the procedures Valley and Dandenong Ranges Regional Strategy available for dealing with them. They can be dealt Plan, Amendment Nos. 105 and 106; and with early if there is agreement and understanding; administratively, they can be dealt with on (b) the orders of the day, government business, relating Thursday, an option available to the government. to the following bills - The opposition expects there to be sufficient time Crimes (Mental Impainnent and Unfitness to be remaining in the following week to consider the Tried) Bill Audit (Amendment) Bill. Gaming Acts (Miscellaneous Amendment> Bill The opposition contends that during the next Food (Amendment) Bill parliamentary week there will not be sufficient time to consider that bill, let alone the Rail Corporations Podiatrists Registration Bill (Amendment) Bill, which provides for the effective Planning and Environment (Amendment) Bill privatisation of the Public Transport Corporation, and bills relating to the Water Act and the Legal Practice (Amendment) Bill Residential Tenancies Act. This week the debates Unclaimed Moneys (Amendment) Bill will be light on in substance and in breadth. However, next week the legislative timetable will be Education

In the next week one of the most fundamentally Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - I too oppose the important pieces of legislation will come before this government business program motion. As the house - the Audit (Amendment) Bill. The bill is honourable member for Thomastown said, the house considered to be so important that earlier today the must set aside the absolute maximum time possible honourable member for Mitcham resigned. He was next week to debate the Auditor-General's concerned about the implications and the impact the legislation. That is an absolute necesSity. If we need bill will have on the Auditor-General and his office. a reason we have only to listen again to the words of the former member for Mitcham to see how strongly The opposition believes this week's government he felt about the matter. The honourable members business program should allow for some bills to be for Frankston East and Bentleigh need an BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 941 opportunity to talk about the matter, as do most of the Premier's explicit support for the government backbenchers who in their heart of independence of the Auditor-General at that time. It hearts oppose the legislation and who wish the highlights the current hypocrisy of the government Premier had not pursued it; they all need the and backbenchers, who are prepared to tell the opportunity next week to explain their position on opposition individually of their disquiet about the the bill. proposed amendments but are not prepared to do what the honourable member for Mitcham has done, As you know, Mr Speaker, the Auditor-General's to live up to their ideals, by at least crossing the floor functions and responsibilities go back 140 years to or making sure the matter is overturned in the party the history and traditions of this Parliament. What room. could be more important than setting aside the maximum possible time to talk about whether we Government members interjecting. should have the only Auditor-General in Australia and around the world who does not have his own Mr BRACKS - I would not want to breach resources and his own operational control? It is a confidences, but many government members have matter of enormous importance. Why should come to me. The opposition wants the maximum honourable members not have the maximum time possible to make sure government members possible time to do it? can explain themselves. If they do not, opposition members will be out in their electorates explaining Next week we also require the maximum possible for them why they have undertaken this shift and let time to consider another major piece of legislation down the state by agreeing to the Premiers's plan. concerning changes to the Victorian Workcover AuthOrity, and in particular the matter which goes Mr DOLLIS (Richmond) - It is indeed a sad day to the fundamental right of injured workers to make when the Leader of the House refuses to organise common-law claims against negligent employers - the program in a way that allows debate on one of again a fundamental right that deserves the most important issues to come before the house. considerable debate. If honourable members do not understand the importance of the issue, the honourable member for The business listed for 13 November contains bills Mitcham made it very clear today to the government that are clearly uncontroversial. They could be dealt and to Victoria that principal among his reasons for with earlier this week to allow the maximum resigning is the government's intention to alter the possible time for debate on more important issues. role and function of the Auditor-General. For example, the St Andrew's Foundation Bill is agreed between the parties and requires little debate. What could be more important than the resignation It could go through with ease, as could the Health on a matter of principle of the former Deputy Leader Services (St Andrew's Hospital) Bill. They are two of the Parliamentary liberal Party, a former minister examples of business items that could be brought and one of the most senior members of this forward immediately to relieve the pressure on the Parliament? Surely it is of sufficient importance to government business program next week. That justify debate? Surely it is possible for the Leader of would allow for considerable debate, particularly on the House to arrange things in a way so that the amendments to the Audit Act 1994 which is a Parliament can be confident of an opportunity for fundamental issue requiring much discussion. full debate. The functions of the Auditor-General go to the heart of the democratic process of the state. Time must be made available for the house to hear They provide the necessary checks and balances to why certain ministers have changed their views keep a government honest and ensure the state is a since they were in opposition. Why has the fit place for people to live without fear about Treasurer changed his former explicit view about the whether a government is kept honest. Yet the Auditor-General to the Premier's plan to split the government is unable to consider this simple Auditor-General's office? We need sufficient time to straightforward proposition that the government hear why the Premier has also had a conversion on program be altered to afford the opposition the the road to Damascus from his position in 1991 and opportunity of debating this important legislation 1992 when he explicitly congratulated the both this week and next week. Auditor-General on his independence in protecting the state's interests. Any honourable member who I differ with my colleague the honourable member cares to go to the Auditor-General's office will see for Thomastown on the planning matter, which is an enshrined in the waiting room a framed description important issue the opposition will be opposing BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

942 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 today. However, it is straightforward and should program one sees that the Audit (Amendment) Bill, not take a great deal of time. The fundamental issues probably the most significant bill to come before this are those that should be debated next week - that house in the past 10 years, will be allocated very is, the role and functions of the Auditor-General. little debating time. I say it is one of the most significant bills because it goes to the heart of the Mr Speaker, you read the letter of the honourable democratic process. That is what an honest, member for Mitcham into the record. He said that in transparent and accountable government should be his view the government's proposals compromised all about. Unfortunately over the years of the the system of checks and balances that are at the core Kennett regime we have seen the checks and of the system of government, and that they run balances in our democracy being eroded. They are fundamentally counter to the public interest. This is being deliberately eroded by this Premier, who does no ordinary person; this is the former Deputy Leader not brook any criticism. We need only look back to of the Parliamentary Liberal Party, a person who the sacking of the former Commissioner for Equal could have been the Premier of this state. Opportunity, Moira Rayner, who dared to speak out against. this government. An honourable member interjected. The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable Mr DOLLIS - The honourable member for member is now straying from the government Mitcham was not too far from becoming the leader. business program, which is the subject of the motion. He could have been the person who faced the last election. Mr HULLS - There are few checks and balances left to protect democracy in this state, and one of the Mr Gude - On a point of order, Mr Speaker, I last is an independent Auditor-General. Next week am not quite sure what a member's resignation has the house will debate the Audit (Amendment) Bill, to do with the government business program. I which will undermine the independence of the invite the honourable member to come back to the Auditor-General. I am not the only honourable matter before the Chair which is certainly not the member saying that. The former honourable resignation of a member of Parliament. member for Mitcham also said it - in the most extraordinary way. He said more time is needed to The SPEAKER - Order! I think it was a passing debate the issue openly, honestly and frankly; and reference. he also said he had not had the opportunity to be heard in the forums supposedly available to him. In Mr DOLLIS - Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will his letter of resignation he made it clear that he come back to the proposition, which is that we found the avenues for serious debate within the arrange business this week in a way that allows Liberal Party unsatisfactory. debate on the very matters the honourable member for Mitcham mentioned in his letter of resignation. Mr Gude - On a point of order, Mr Speaker, you The Deputy Leader of the Parliamentary Liberal have already ruled on this matter during another Party - he is an able deputy - understands how honourable member's contribution. I submit to you, important it is to the people of Victoria to have their Sir, that the honourable member for Niddrie has say in this chamber. They are not going to get their been straying substantially from the matter before say from the government benches. Those honourable the Chair for more than 1 minute. I ask you to bring members who have told us in the corridors that they him back to that matter. oppose the Premier's plans will not be saying very much. It is impossible for the opposition to agree to The SPEAKER - Order! the honourable member the government's proposed business plan for this for Niddrie was straying from the matter before the week because it is unable to see its logic. Chair and I asked him to come back to it. I believe his reference to what a now-retired honourable Mr HULLS (Niddrie) - I also oppose the motion. member has said about a matter on the government Honourable members will recall that on many business program is relevant, so I do not uphold the occasions the opposition has opposed the point of order. government business program because it allows insufficient time for debate on specific issues. This Mr HULLS - The former honourable member time one of the most significant issues to come for Mitcham has made it clear that the avenues before this house in many years has been allocated available to him to debate this Significant issue have very little time for debate. When one looks at the not been satisfactory. We oppose the business BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 943 program because, yet again, the government is He has demonstrated the inadequacy of the debate ensuring that this place will not have sufficient in the house and within the Liberal Party in the most opportunity to debate significant issues. principled way possible - by resigning his seat.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by the former The limitation on debate is no better demonstrated honourable member. He cannot find a forum in his than by the business program, which is an attempt own party; let us at least ensure that this place is a to stifle our ability to debate significant issues. The forum in which to debate democracy. Let the most fundamental of those concerns democracy and government show the people of Victoria that they the right of Victorians to have a say, to have decent live in a fair dinkum democracy by giving every democratic institutions and to know that the member of the house the opportunity to fully and government and the state are functioning adequately debate the Audit (Amendment) Bill. competently and without the risk of corruption.

By not giving Parliament the appropriate It is important that we defend the Auditor-General opportunity to debate the bill, the government is in the same way as we defend the state's other saying, 'We don't care about democracy. Bad luck democratic institutions. We object to the business Roger Pescott: you resigned in vain. We are not program on the basis that it stifles our ability to prepared to stand up for democracy by allowing a debate an important issue - and our ability to full and frank debate on this important issue'. debate issues such as that will continue to be stifled until the government increases the opportunities for That is why I join the opposition in opposing the debate. government's business program. We believe there must be an appropriate opportunity to debate an In the time I have been in Parliament I have seen the issue as important as the independence of the government make numerous attempts to nobble its Auditor-General. I fully support the stand the opponents; and by guillotining debate on bills it has honourable member for Mitcham has taken. changed the fundamental nature of our democratic institutions. We want the opportunity to debate the The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable issues of principle in the Audit (Amendment) Bill, member's time has expired. including what is likely to happen to the Auditor-General. Mr CARLI (Coburg) - I, too, join my opposition colleagues in opposing the government business The former honourable member for Mitcham said program. Yet again we have an insignificant there are few avenues open in the Liberal Party to program that will not allow us to fully debate issues debate issues such as this. I will take that further by of great concern to the state - and there is probably saying there are limited opportunities in Parliament no issue of greater concern than that of democracy. to debate those issues. Along with opposition members, principled members of the government As one of the basic institutions of our society, should be prepared to say, 'We want the Parliament is supposed to be the defender of opportunity for debate'. democracy. As parliamentarians we are entrusted with debating significant issues, and our Government members who have discussed the issue opportunities to do so should not be stifled by in the corridors have shown considerable business programs that force us into dead ends and displeasure at the actions of the government and the into discussions that are of little significance to the Premier in nobbling the Auditor-General. Even the workings of the state - and that is the situation Liberal Party organisation has voted to defend the with the business program. independence of the Auditor-General. There is disquiet in the government ranks. Today is an This is not the first time the opposition has opposed historic occasion: a member of the government has the business program for those reasons. We will been prepared to resign on principle over the continue to do so until the government realises that independence of the Auditor-General. we want to debate the significant issues that are fundamental to democracy in Victoria. We want the opportunity to debate the issue in Parliament this week. We want to discuss the threats It is fitting that we are opposing the program today, to democracy so we can give Victorians some given the historic and, dare I say, extraordinarily confidence that they are not moving towards being brave act by the honourable member for Mitcham. ruled by an authoritarian government - if they UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN

944 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 have not already reached that stage! Together with government's actions. Clearly, we need to stand my colleagues, I oppose the government business up and support the Auditor General. The opposition program. It is far too narrow and will not give us the will do so and that is why it asks that the opportunity to debate issues that are of concern to government's business program be changed to allow Victorians. that to happen. This legislation is of fundamental importance. It is the most important bill to be The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The debated by the house during my time here. honourable member's time has expired. Members of the opposition have spoken about Mr LANGDON (lvanhoe) - I support my democracy in this state. The government has opposition colleagues. The electors of Ivanhoe are attacked the very principles of democracy more so concerned about the independence of the than any other government. That is why all Auditor-General. They would like decent debate, not members should stand up to defend the just the quick passage of bills that come before the Auditor-General and let their electorates know house. Because of the limitations on time, in many where they stand. Because there will be a debates there have been only two speakers - the referendum on the issue in Mitcham every member government lead speaker and the opposition lead should explain his or her position before the house speaker - and that's it. Every member of the house and before the people of Victoria to ensure that deserves the chance to speak on the Audit democracy is maintained and we have a decent (Amendment) Bill. I want all government members thorough system of checks and balances on to put their opinions on the bill in Hansard to see government. An absence of checks and balances on whether their electors endorse what they say. Many this or any other government will lead to corruption would be betraying their electorates. I notice there in this state. It is the last thing honourable members are only three government members in the should want for this state. Because of the way the chamber - two ministers and the Government state is currently being run and because of the lack Whip. Where are the backbenchers? They are not of protection for the Auditor-General, some time in here to support the government. I commend the the future we could have an independent former honourable member for Mitcham. I have commissioner into corruption. been a member of Parliament for only a brief time, but never before have I seen such an act of bravery Motion agreed to. byamember. UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND Mr Pandazopoulos - I would say principle! DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN Mr LANGDON - I will get to that. He was very brave to stand up to the government. Obviously, he Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and is a man of great principle. He wants the issue to be Local Government) - I move: debated out in the electorate so that when the seat is contested it will be a referendum on the That pursuant to section 46D(1)(c) of the Planning and Auditor-General issue. The government refused to Environment Act 1987, amendments No. 105 and allow the debate on the bill to be held over until after No. 106 to Upper Yarra Valley and Dandenong Ranges the by-election - whenever that may be. The Regional Strategy Plan be approved. government will either sneak the by-election through as quickly as possible or hold it in the Mr DOLLIS (Richmond) - The opposition is middle of January when people are not here to listen unable to support the proposed amendments and its to the debate or to hear all the issues. logic is fairly clear. I should have thought that it was clear to the minister last time we debated another of The issue needs to be debated in this house so that his proposed amendments. I remind the minister every member can have his or her say. I speak in what the Premier said about this area. On support of the Auditor-General on behalf of the 14 November 1994 the Age reported the Premier's electorate of Ivanhoe. However, I have no doubt that comments on the legislation dealing with the Yarra my upper house colleagues for Templestowe Valley and Dandenong Ranges. The Premier said the Province, Bill Forwood and Carlo Furletti, will legislation would lock up the area from remain silent on this issue as they always do on any development almost in perpetuity. However, in 1997 issue of concern that affects my seat, which also is we have got anything but a locking-up mechanism. I part of their provinces. They will cower behind the shall run through the issues and the reason why the UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 945

minister and the Premier are displaying considerable which can fly in the face of commitments that have hypocrisy - not that hypocrisy is something new in been made previously. politics - about the proposed amendments. They appear to have undergone a total conversion. I do In November 1994 the government proudly not know whether it was on the road to Damascus announced that the Planning Authorities (Repeal) or somewhere else, but a conversion has taken place! Bill would lock up the area from development in It could have been on the way to Athens except that perpetuity. The statement was consistent with a the minister has not been there for some time! The bipartisan Victorian policy that protected the Upper Premier has rethought his commitment to the people Yarra Valley and Dandenong Ranges. That approach of Victoria. existed before the Kennett government came to office and no previous plaruting minister deviated The amendments raise a number of serious issues from that policy. such as the government's inability to stand by its commitment to protect this sensitive area. The The minister will remember the former Liberal commitment made by the Premier and the minister government's commitment to that principle, which is on record. The government's approach towards was carried on by the Labor government during its planning generally is often inconsistent and flies in 10 years in office following its election in 1982. The the face of proper planning principles. The minister commitment had bipartisan support because Labor is known for his constant intervention in local believed the area was significant to Victoria. That is planning matters. 1hls is just another why we were encouraged by the comments the Maclellanesque way of saying, 'We divert from our minister and the Premier made in 1994 - but previous commitments and we will do as I decree!'. encouragement does not last long in this state, let Of course, the process by which amendments of this alone in Parliament! The amendments bring into nature are made is with the approval of the minister. focus the principle that in some ways led the honourable member for Mitcham to resign - that is, Mr E. R. Smith interjected. the principle of integrity, of honestly maintaining commitments that have been made before. In this Mr DOLLIS - I take up the interjection of the case, the commitment was to protect the area. I will honourable member for Glen Waverley. I have no be interested to hear the minister's explanation of intention of hurting the minister's feelings. the logic - or rather, the lack of logic - that has led him to move the amendments. Mr Maclellan interjected. Amendments 105 and 106 to the Upper Yarra Valley Mr DOLLIS - The minister is an expert when it and Dandenong Ranges Regional Strategy Plan comes to hurt. However, I will heed his advice that mark a significant deviation in the bipartisan policy I the honourable member for Glen Waverley is out of have mentioned. Unfortunately, the amendments his place, out of order and not assisting debate. The continue the planning themes to which we have government's attitude to land use planning must be become accustomed under the government and the carefully examined because once again the minister minister. The minister has again approved is amending the Upper Yarra Valley and Dandenong incremental amendments to a strategy plan. Ranges Regional Strategy Plan. The amendments Although it can be argued that such amendments do should not be before the house. I shall explain the not of themselves significantly change the quality of contradictions in the minister's previous the local environment, they contribute to cumulative commitments and the Premier's undertakings and change. They enable the minister to alter bit by bit the changes that the minister is proposing under the the commitment he made in 1994 - and before too amendments. The government made strong long another amendment will be made to add to the promises to protect the Upper Yarra Valley and significant changes we are talking about. Dandenong Ranges when it introduced the Planning Authorities (Repeal) Bill. The minister took Over the next few weeks the minister will find out considerable care to indicate, not once or twice but that planning will be one of the Significant issues the many times, that he as minister and the Premier people of Mitcham will want to talk about. I was were committed to protecting the area, and they did encouraged to see his parliamentary secretary attend that under that bill. However, the minister did not a meeting on planning organised by the Labor Party. say - and the Premier did not explain to the people I was also encouraged to see the federal Liberal of Victoria - that the minister has an incredible Party member in attendance. They were there not ability to make amendments to planning schemes because they love Labor Party meetings but because UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN

946 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 the minister's planning process has become a serious Effects of that kind of intervention are exacerbated issue. when the minister simply overrides local councils and imposes his will for specious reasons and Mr McNamara interjected. because of his desire to be at the centre of every single subdivision. I cannot understand why he goes Mr DOLLIS - The Deputy Premier will find out to the lengths he does to get involved. I am not how quickly things can change. Revenge is a dish suggesting he deals with every single subdivision or that can be served in a variety of ways. The first with every case. However, the number of times the course has been served today by the honourable minister has intervened is disconcerting. I would member for Mitcham, who has given us an suggest that his desire to be involved in pathetic opportunity to debate matters of principle and subdivisions and not to consider the bigger picture accountability, including the promises made by and that he presented to Parliament brings into question the honesty and integrity of the Premier and the his logic and his commitment to the planning government. It will be a very interesting contest. process the government says it adheres to.

All those issues are related to the amendments. I The minister's desire to override democratically have raised them before and I will continue to raise elected councils has to be questioned because, as we them for as long as the government continues to have stated before, he is the first minister to hold the deviate from its commitment to protect the area, for combined portfolios of local government and as long as the Minister for Planning and Local planning. As the minister for local government he Government continues not to abide by the makes arrangements relating to local councils, and commitments he has given to the house and to the as the minister for planning he makes certain that people of Victoria, and for as long as the Premier those arrangements are adhered to and enforced. continues to change his mind according to the circumstances of the day. You cannot govern on that I turn now to the amendments. Amendment 105 basis. That is why we will continue to bring those allows a number of subdivisions which will increase issues up every time the minister introduces lot densities on sites in the area. Site 1 is at 30-34 amendments such as these. Glasgow Road. The amendment allows the property to be subdivided into five lots, subject to the The amendments have been made possible by a granting of permits and other conditions. It will minister who cannot resist intervening in local double the density from one lot per 8 hectares to one planning issues. More often than not his intervention lot per 4 hectares, paving the way for more is based on individual cases rather than good or concentrated development. That contradicts the valid planning principles. The opposition would like minister's previous commitments to the house. to know why the minister feels it necessary to intervene in this way. He has never explained the Site 2 is at Harrison Road, Montrose. The logic behind his boast that he is the minister who amendment allows the site to be subdivided into make hundreds of amendments every year and eight lots of 4000 square metres. This will increase whose door is open for business. He has never the denSity from one lot per 4 hectares to one lot per explained why individual cases carry more weight 0.8 hectares, depending on the solution that is than the collective good or his commitment to the eventually offered. It is a dramatic change to the promises he has made to protect particular areas existing policy relating to density in the area. In a such as the Dandenong Ranges. strategic context, the government should not support the subdivision of site 2. A planning minister should be focusing on the strategic planning issues facing the state rather than I suggest it is impossible for the minister to justify concentrating on subdivisions in and around the his intervention. There is no way he can logically Dandenongs. He has become the minister for explain to Parliament why he is doing what he is subdivisions. If you want a subdivision, you do not doing. The resulting density ratio, which he clearly have to worry about the process. Instead, you go to understands and which clearly contradicts his see the Minister for Planning and Local Government, previous position, means he should withdraw Mr Robert Maclellan, and when you do you can be approval for the change. It is impossible for the almost certain that your individual case will win the minister to propose amendments to site no. 2, unless day. he has accepted that all previous commitments given by him and the Premier carry no weight any longer. UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN

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I turn to the proposed amendment to site no. 3, a wish to benefit from his ad hoc approach to vacant block at 36 and 37 Francis Crescent. It is planning. Where is the logic when the government proposed that the land be rezoned into a residential contradicts its own planning processes or when the conservation 1 zone to allow for subdivision to 864 minister contradicts his own statements? If it were square metres and for vegetation removal controls. It another minister, one could argue that the minister is important to understand that the minister is has altered government policy; if it were another advocating vegetation removal controls. government, one could argue the government is setting up a number of different approaches to The amendment increases the density from 1 lot per planning. But the contradictions of the same Premier 5 hectares to 110t per 864 square metres - another and the same minister bring Victoria to a new low dramatic change to density ratios. Although that site level of politics. is an infill between urban density subdivisions, the proposal tends to encourage development rather The minister's introduction of these amendments than lock up the area, as the government promised tells every Victorian that we cannot believe anything in 1994 it would do. the minister or the Premier say. As the former member for Mitcham disclosed today, there are few Site no. 4 at 48 and 49 Stubbs Avenue comprises honourable people in the Liberal Party, which is 4.5 hectares occupied by a house on each lot. This why Victoria has reached the state it is in today. If was exhibited as residential conservation 1 zone the minister wants to introduce some integrity, with lots of 864 square metres. A panel has honesty and logic into the planning process he recommended rezoning to residential conservation 2 should reconsider the amendments in the light of zone with a minimum lot of 4000 square metres. commitments he has made to Parliament and to That would increase the density from 1 lot per Victorians. He should reconsider the contradictory 4 hectares to 1 lot per 0.4 hectares. That is amendments he now proposes. contradictory and hypocritical; I do not understand the minister'S logic. In relation to amendments no. 106 and no. 107, I am informed that the minister received several requests Site no. 5 at Fortune A venue comprises lots of from landowners in the Shire of Yarra Ranges to between 1.1 and 2 hectares. The landowner sought amend planning controls so that excisions may be subdivision of the lots to 4000 square metres. The made. The amendments would allow specific land contains native vegetation, some of which is of properties with a total area of less than 4 hectares to significance to the landscape character of Mount be subdivided. The original strategy plan under the Evelyn. A panel supported additional subdivision planning scheme specifies a maximum subdivision subject to a development plan having regard to density of 1 lot to each 4 hectares. Since 1993 the landscape issues and a minimum lot size of owner of one site who would gain from the 1 hectare. Although the changes proposed for those amendments has repeatedly approached the sites are all subject to the issuing of relevant council minister and lobbied for changes to the Upper Yarra building permits, such issuance is largely dependent Valley Regional Strategy Plan. In 1994 the minister on whether permits are allowed under the strategy told that person, and everybody else, that he would plan. not allow what he is allowing today through the amendments that have now been introduced. There are no valid reasons why any amendments should be made. The cumulative effect is to reduce What incredible hypocrisy! In 1992 and 1993 the the protection of this environmentally sensitive area. minister was repeatedly lobbied for change; in 1994, The amendments would increase densities and he made a particular decision. At the same time, the reduce environmental controls as the government local council resolved not to support the continues to set and follow precedents that are landowner's requests. The minister then established inconsistent with the preservation of the area and an advisory committee to report on the proposal; it with the minister's 1994 statements to this house and recommended that the landowner's proposals to Victorians. should not be supported and that existing planning scheme controls should be retained. It appears the minister has been increasingly approached to alter the Upper Yarra Valley regional Not only did the minister, the council and the strategy plan and to assist individual landowners in advisory committee originally recommend in that this area. Obviously the word is out that the way, but the minister now says, 'Go and jump minister's door is open for business to those who whichever side of the fence you want to. I have UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN

948 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 decided to contradict everything that could be some certainty and consistency in planning and in regarded as decent and uniform in planning the planning schemes introduced in the house. controls'. Despite the committee's findings, the minister decided to prepare the necessary The process that was established recognises that the amendment which allows the landowner's proposal Upper Yarra Valley and Dandenong Ranges area is to proceed. environmentally significant and requires special protection. In opposing the amendments, the The precedent was established for this kind of opposition argues that the legislation operates intervention earlier this year when Parliament was effectively and provides that protection. The told the minister saw fit to interfere in planning in opposition is determined to ensure that the the region because of economic hardship. It appears government acts consistently with the commitment that excuse has become the criteria for subdivision in it gave regarding the preservation of the area. the Upper Yarra Valley and Dandenong Ranges. The minister appears to be keen to interfere on behalf of In conclusion, I again put on the record what the people who argue that their properties no longer Premier said in 1994 of the legislation presented in provide economic returns. That is certainly the case the house so that everybody including the Treasurer, with the land at Victoria Road which, through the who is at the table, understands the situation. He is amendment, will be subdivided even though it is reported in the Age as having said that the well below the minimum lot size stipulated for such legislation will lock up the area from development a procedure. 'almost in perpetuity' and that:

How many times do we have to tell the minister that If any government in the future attempts to change every proposal in the amendments contradicts what we will put in place, either house of the everything the government has committed itself to? Parliament can refuse to let them do it. This is the It is logically impossible to support the minister's greatest security for agriculture, for vineyards, for proposals. He regards subdivision as the only tourism of any area in Melbourne ... solution to financial hardship. Is this to be the minister's new ruling? If he wishes to intervene, It will be very, very detailed. The whole objective of it surely he could be more imaginative in solutions he is to ensure that there is no more residential provides to problems presented to him. development and no more commercial development apart from those that fit in our strict criteria. Suddenly the minister has become someone who will endeavour to solve every financial problem The Premier said that in 1994 with the support of people present to him, yet he is unable to stick to his Minister Maclellan. The amendment before the and the government's plans, resolutions or house is a total turnaround. It is the most legislation. hypocritical position the government has taken, and it is the most difficult position the Parliament has Amendment no. 106, in conjunction with faced. If there is to be some honesty and consistency amendment no. 107, concerns lots 145 to 147 Old in the way in which such matters are dealt with, I Gippsland Road, lilydale, where two houses are urge the government either to withdraw the located on one piece of land. Last April the amendment or to reject it at the Premier's direction precedent for this kind of subdivision was in this and the other house. If honourable members established by the minister. Did the minister set a refuse to reject the amendment, they are accepting precedent in contradiction of his previous rulings? that the Premier is a hypocrite and the minister is Of course he did! not far behind. Any member who supports the amendment will be part of the hypocrisy and The precedent set in April this year enables the responsible for a planning system which has no opposition to predict another contradiction. The place in Victoria and which should not be supported opposition has warned the government and the by the house. minister that other properties with multiple dwellings count for a number of reasons and that the House divided on motion: opposition would seek a change to the planning scheme based on that scenario. As the opposition Ayes, 53 said in April, it is not an appropriate way to deal Andrighetto, Mr McNamara, Mr with planning scheme amendments. There should be Ashley,Mr Maughan,Mr Burke, Ms (Teller) Napthine, Or CRIMES (MENTAL IMPAIRMENT AND UNFITNESS TO BE TRIED) BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 949

Clark,Mr Paterson, Mr The first amendment defers the commencement Coleman,Mr Perrin, Mr provisions and the second remedies a typographical Cooper,Mr Perton,Mr error. Dean,Dr Peulich, Mrs Dixon,Mr Phillips, Mr Mr HULLS (Niddrie) - The opposition has no Doyle,Mr Plowman, Mr A.F. objection to the amendments, and repeats: this is a Elder, Mr Reynolds, Mr very good piece of legislation. Elliott, Mrs Richardson, Mr Finn,Mr Rowe,Mr The SPEAKER - Order! I am of the opinion that Gude,Mr Ryan,Mr the amendments need to be passed by an absolute Henderson, Mrs Savage, Mr majority. Jasper, Mr Shardey, Mrs Jenkins, Mr Smith, Mr E.R. (Teller) Motion agreed to by absolute majority. John,Mr Smith, Mr LW. Kennett,Mr Spry,Mr GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS Kilgour, Mr (Teller) Steggall, Mr AMENDMENT) BILL Lean,Mr Stockdale, Mr Leigh,Mr Tehan,Mrs Debate resumed from 9 October; motion of McArthur, Mr Thompson, Mr Mr REYNOLDS (Minister for Sport). McCall,Ms Traynor,Mr McGill,Mrs Treasure, Mr Mr HULLS (Niddrie) - All Victorians want a McGrath, Mr W.D. Wade,Mrs squeaky clean properly regulated gaming industry. McLellan,Mr Wells,Mr They do not want a government that continually Maclellan, Mr promotes the industry and particular people in it - the mates of the Premier - at the expense of a Noes, 24 properly regulated industry. Until the government Andrianopoulos, Mr Hamilton, Mr gets the message right about the gaming industry, Batchelor, Mr Hulls,Mr the Auditor-General and workers compensation we Bracks,Mr Kosky,Ms will continue to see similar occurrences as the Carneron, Mr (Teller) Langdon, Mr (Teller) reSignation of the member for Mitcham today. Carnpbell, Ms Leighton, Mr Earlier the Treasurer interjected across the table: Carli,Mr Lim,Mr 'Isn't it amazing that it takes the resignation of the Cunningham, Mr Maddigan, Mrs (Teller) honourable member for Mitcham to get the spirits of Davies, Ms Micallef, Mr the opposition up!'. It is not just the resignation of Dollis, Mr Mildenhall, Mr the honourable member for Mitcham that gets the Garbutt, Ms Pandazopoulos, Mr opposition's spirits up, but that certainly helps. I Gillett, Ms Seitz, Mr have no doubt it has raised the spirits of a number of Haermeyer, Mr Wilson, Mrs government members as well. The Treasurer says, 'Absolutely'. Obviously there was a fair amount of Motion agreed to. animosity between the Treasurer and the honourable member for Mitcham, which goes CRIMES (MENTAL IMPAIRMENT AND without saying. UNFITNESS TO BE TRIED) BILL I will tell the house why this matter has raised the Message from Council relating to amendments spirits of a number of government members: they considered. believed it was incumbent upon them to stand up to the Premier on this issue, but they did not have the Council's amendments: guts. They are now pleased that at least one coalition member had the guts to stand up to the Premier and 1. Clause 2, line 15, omit "3" and insert "5". to say, 'Enough is enough'. The former member for 2. Clause 31, page 28, line 8, omit "given" and insert Mitcham has had the guts to take the bull by the "give". horns and resign on a matter of principle. Let us hope over the coming months that he will have more MI5 WADE (Attorney-General) - I move: support. The honourable member for Doncaster has expressed grave concerns about the legislation -- That the amendments be agreed to. GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

950 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 199i

The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Tattersalls, Tabcorp, Crown Casino, or people honourable member for Niddrie may be making associated with the casino - such as Bruce passing references to other occurrences, but I remind Mathieson and the like - to lobby and influence the him that the measure before the house is the Gaming government is enormous. For that reason it is Acts Ron Walker, who In the opposition's view the bill further deregulates are its major players. Most honourable members the gaming industry at a time when Victorians are would agree that the Premier has foolishly tied crying out for more regulation of the industry. As I himself so tightly to the mast of his mates at the said at the outset, Victorians want a squeaky clean casino that the casino's future and that of the gaming industry. They want a Victorian Casino and Premier are now dependent on each other. If one Gaming Authority which is totally independent of falls, they will all fall. government and which will impose stringent conditions and probity requirements on people who The Premier has placed himself in an invidious wish to get into the gaming industry. position. He should never have allowed himself to be so closely linked with Mr Uoyd Williams and Honourable members must remember that the Mr Ron Walker once they became so closely gaming industry in Victoria and in any other state is associated with the casino. So closely is the Premier a lucrative and, therefore, very powerful industry. It linked with the casino that the Auditor-General has generates millions and millions of dollars for the found time and again that there have been handouts, government and for the major players in the favours and deals to assist the Premier's mates at the industry. At last count some 14 per cent of the state's casino. It is the opposition's view that one of the taxes were generated from the gambling dollar. reasons the government wants to nobble the According to the Minister for Finance and Minister Auditor-General - and probably the straw that for Gaming, almost half a billion dollars in taxation broke the camel's back - is the fact that the during the 1995-96 finandal year was generated Auditor-General found a $174 million gift had been from gaming machines outside the casino. given to the casino by this government by undercharging for the increased number of gaming Some time ago a question on notice asked the tables at the casino. minister for the number of poker machines and the amount of government revenue from poker That is not all. The government is now considering a machines for each local government area in Victoria. reduction in the tax rate for high rollers at the casino. He gave a list of the areas in Victoria that had Honourable members know Mr Williams has gaming machines and said that gaming taxation applied to reduce the tax rate, which is on a sliding paid into the consolidated fund and the Community scale from 9 or 10 per cent, for high rollers. The Support Fund for 1995-96 totalled $479741695. That Premier last week said on 3AW that he is figure does not include casino taxation. We are considering it. This is at a time when workers' rights talking huge amounts of money and potentially in this state are about to be slashed, unemployment huge amounts of influence can be exerted by people is at increasingly high levels, our hospital system is involved in the industry. in crisis, schools are being closed and class sizes are increasing. Yet when it comes to his mates at the As a result of those large revenues the power of the casino, the Premier is seriously considering giving major players in the industry, whether they be further tax concessions. It is absolutely extraordinary. GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 951

After Crown won the casino tender the Premier also monitor the suitability of these persons over time and made it clear that any changes it wanted to make to scrutinise new entrants into the industry. would be encouraged. On one occasion the application to increase the size of the hotel from 350 That, again, is fair and appropriate. The last thing to 1000 rooms was knocked back by the Victorian Victorians want is for shonks and charlatan Casino and Gaming Authority; yet the next day the fly-by-nighters to get involved in the industry in Premier publicly suggested that those associated Victoria. Further objectives are to: with the casino ought to try again. It is extraordinary for a Premier to link himself so closely with people ensure that the persons owning shares in, or entering associated with the casino. into material or controlled contracts with, the gaming and casino operators meet regulatory requirements; We now find that imprimatur has been given for gaming tables to be set up in the hotel in the casino ensure that the benefits of minor gaming accrue to complex. We read in today's Herald Sun that four sporting, charitable and community groups; gaming tables are to be removed from the high-roller area at the casino and placed on the 27th floor of the assess the suitability of proposed gaming locations and hotel complex, demonstrating that whatever the venue operators and associates; and Premier's mates at the casino demand, they get, and that the Premier is too closely linked to his mates at develop and maintain an efficient and effective the casino. licensing system.

Next we will have gaming tables at the picture Most of the objectives set out in the annual report theatre complex at the casino. No doubt the high are dealt with to some degree in the legislation that rollers occasionally take themselves off to the flicks, is currently before the house. The opposition so why not follow them round and place gaming believes the objectives of the authority should be tables wherever they go? It is an absurd situation. strengthened and not weakened in any way. Once the permanent casino opens in Sydney the Victorians want a more strictly controlled and New South Wales government will no doubt regulated industry. The authority has a crucial role seriously consider matclring the tax rates this in the licensing of gaming locations and venue government has given the high rollers to entice them operators, in the licensing of special employees and to Sydney. We will see a war on tax concessions take technicians and in the listing of gaming machine place between Victoria and New South Wales. manufacturers and suppliers. The authority also has a role in approving permits for minor gaming, Victorians are saying 'Enough is enough. Let us get approving all games and electronic gaming our priorities right. lhis place down on the Yarra machines, mOnitoring the casino on-line real-time has to sink or swim on its own merits. No more gaming system and the Tabcorp wagering system. It government handouts or favours. Let's get back into has a very important role in inspecting the casino the business of properly regulating the industry'. and gaming venues to ensure that regulations are This legislation takes away some of the powers of being complied with, investigating complaints and the Victorian Casino and Gaming Authority. One unusual results, and managing a research program, need look only at the charter of the authority. The something I will deal with shortly. annual report, which has just been released, makes it clear it has certain objectives. They include: It is clear from the charter that if the authority does not take on those roles, there are perceived risks, Identify those persons who are able to exert influence including criminal infiltration into the gaming and ensure that they undergo a level of scrutiny industry. That is the last thing Victorians want and befitting their role in the industry. that is why the role of the authority ought be strengthened, not weakened. Other perceived risks What could be fairer than that? That is one of the in the authority not taking on those roles include primary roles of the Victorian Casino and Gaming patrons being unfairly treated by gaming venues Authority - to scrutinise those involved in the and venues being defrauded by patrons or industry and ensure they undergo appropriate employees. The Victorian Casino and Gaming probity checks and financial checks. Another of the Authority is making it clear that those risks will arise objectives in the annual report tabled today is to: if its charter is not adhered to. Lack of confidence in the industry will lead to fewer gaming patrons, a negative impact on tourism and tourism revenue GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

952 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 Novembe- 1997 and the government's not collecting all the revenue in its embryonic stage. We must also remember that due to it. It could also lead to inadequate this government has now been in power for five information on the social and economic impacts of years. The minister went on to say: gambling. I offer this not as some sort of partisan or point-scoring In a nutshell the key roles of the Victorian Casino political comment but rather as evidence that the and Gaming Authority are to regulate the industry cabinet, and subsequently the Parliament with properly, to ensure community confidence through bipartisan support in both chambers, had detennhed the screening of participants, to test systems and that gaming was a legitimate economic activity tlut machines, to audit venues, to collect revenue due to should not be subjected to the NIMBY - the government, to maintain and enhance industry standards and to provide research on the social and 'not in my backyard' - economic impact of gambling in this state. Once the functions of the authority are eroded and its role syndrome. undermined or weakened, those perceived risks addressed by the authority will occur, the major risk The minister talked about the authority being being criminal infiltration into the gaming industry. responsible for undertaking research into gambling in Victoria and then went on to say: The opposition vehemently opposes any attempt by the government to take away any functions of and The government has acted to prevent the licensing of weaken the authority of the Casino and Gaming gaming venues in shopping complexes and to en..

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 953 the Casino Control Act, one sees that they include Mr HULLS - I hope the honourable member for promoting tourism and employment - no doubt, as Gippsland South has had plenty of experience in a result of gaming. How can it have that as part of its standing up to the Premier. I hope he had the guts to charter on the one hand and on the other objectively stand up to him on the workers compensation issue. carry out independent assessments of the social and I also hope his old firm of Warren Graham and economic impact of gambling on Victoria? It is my Murphy put enough spine in his back to ensure that view that the two are mutually exclusive and that an he stands up to the Premier on this issue. I have no independent body should be set up to undertake doubt that, being a true democrat, he also such research. vehemently opposes the government's proposals for the Auditor-General. Before government members attempt to ridicule that suggestion, I point out that that is not just my view The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - but the view of the former Minister for Community Order! The honourable member for Niddrie should Services, Mr Michael John, who is still a member of get back to the bill. Parliament. Mr HULLS - He has no doubt incurred the Mr Haermeyer interjected. wrath of the Premier, as did the former Minister for Community Services, who suggested that we should Mr HULLS - It will be interesting to see whether think about having an independent research arm to he joins his former colleague, the honourable assess the social and economic impacts of gaming. member for Mitcham, in taking the honourable As I said, I do not have a response from the Premier, course and walking the plank. We will just have to but we know what happened to him - no doubt as wait and see. a result of raising that is~ue.

A letter the opposition has received following a An honourable member interjected. freedom of information request about a totally unrela ted matter also concerns research into Mr HULLS - There may have also been other problem gambling. The letter, which was written by reasons, and no doubt the honourable member for the former Minister for Community Services, Gippsland South wants to enlighten us. However, I Michael John, is dated 23 October 1995 and is would not want him to embarrass the honourable addressed to the Premier, the Honourable Jeft member for Bendigo East by referring to them. The Kennett, MP. In the letter, which deals with research most dignified reason I can give is that he stood up programs conducted by the Victorian Casino and to the Premier. I know I am not allowed to talk about Gaming AuthOrity, the minister says, among other the dignified resignation of the honourable member things: for Mitcham, save to say that we may well have a domino affect in Victoria. It may be that gaming is ... There has been informal discussion about whether the next big issue that will bring government the government should establish an independent members out of the woodwork. research body to oversee both the research programs of both the Victorian Casino and Gaming Authority and Mr Ryan - On a point of order, Mr Acting H and CS to avoid possible duplication. You may wish Speaker, I respectfully suggest that the honourable to obtain the views of the heads of churches on this member for Niddrie should stay away from matter. dominoes and stick to gaming, which is the nature of the bill before the house. In his letter the minister raises the question of whether the Casino and Gaming Authority is the The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! I mentioned appropriate body to carry out what is meant to be to the honourable member for Niddrie that he was independent research on the social and economic straying from the bill, but I am sure he was just impacts of gaming. I do not have a copy of the making a passing reference. I am watching the response from the Premier - but we know his honourable member carefully. response was to sack the minister, because some five or six months later he got the bullet. Mr HULLS - The reference I am about to make may convince the honourable member for Gippsland Mr Ryan - That's a long bow. South that the dominoes are starting to fall, because it is a reference to gaming and to the honourable member for Bennettswood. GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

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The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - By changing their proposal, the applicants facilitated Order! The honourable member will return to the their own planning pennit ... That shouldn't be bill. possible. The bottom line is the tribunal was powerless to act and simply rubber stamped the proposal. Mr HULLS - The Premier inadvertently referred to the honourable member for Bennettswood in the Applicants should not be able to install gaming house today. machines without being exposed to the planning processes. An honourable member interjected. The Premier has to look at the implications of this ... Mr HULLS - No. I take up the interjection. The Premier inadvertently referred to the honourable Mr Coleman said the tribunal was unable to consider member for Mitcham as the honourable member for the 'massive' community protest to the hotel and Bennettswood. gaming complex.

Mr Ryan - Are you making a prediction? Mr Coleman also attacked government policy that prevented gaming machines in shopping centres but Mr HULLS - Indeed, he was once the allowed them in strip shopping areas ... honourable member for Bennettswood. There must be something in the water in Bennettswood, because 'It's silly you can have them in one set of shops and not an article appeared in the Sunday Herald Sun of another', he said. 9 November with the headline 'Pokies loophole attack'. The article refers to the honourable member The honourable member has slammed the for Bennettswood expressing grave concerns about government's gaming policy and he said the Premier the gaming policy of the government. The article should look at the matter. I have no doubt that is written by Felicity Dargan states: what the honourable member for Mitcham said about the matter of the Auditor-General. 'Premier, A liberal MP is taking on Premier Jeff Kennett over the have a look at this matter. You are doing the wrong invasion of poker machines. thing'. The Premier refused and the honourable member for Mitcham went! Geoff Coleman, the member for Bennettswood, wants Mr Kennett to close a planning loophole that allows In this particular instance the honourable member developers to set up pokies without permits as long as for Bennettswood says to the Premier that he should they do not occupy more than a certain percentage of look at the matter. No doubt the Premier refuses and floor space. we will see what happens. If he is a man of dignity - I expect he is - he will not only stand up He also wants to overturn government policy that to the Premier but also he will say, 'Enough is allows gaming machines in strip shopping centres, but enough. I, too, am out of this place. I, too, am not shopping complexes. walking the plank. I, too, am taking the only dignified course that is opened to me'. He could take The honourable member then refers to loopholes the Cheryl Kernot option and join the opposition. He that were exposed after the AAT approved a knows its gaming policy is appropriate. It has been mini-casino on 24 September in a strip shopping reflected in all the research that has been done in this centre in Mount Waverley. The article continues: state.

The developer, Chevington Pty Ltd, amended its It is clear from most of the research that has been proposal from 100 to 90 gaming machines and done in this state that the community supports the successfully appealed to the tribunal. opposition's gaming policy. It includes more stringent controls on the industry and the Because the gaming room space was less than maintenance of the current cap on the number of 25 per cent of the area for liquor consumption, a gaming machines at 27 SOO. It also includes the planning permit for pokies was no longer required. retention of the 50:50 retention rule that acts as a second cap. The article reports a comment from the honourable member who said: Mr Reynolds interjected. GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 955

Mr HULLS - The minister interjects to say that is Not only do people say, 'Enough is enough', but what the government is doing. Obviously the 50 per cent of those surveyed say that 27500 minister has not spoken to the Premier because the machines are too many and that we should start Premier is about to abolish that. The minister has pulling poker machines out of areas. The research been led up the garden path. also showed that 53 per cent disagreed with the proposition that the introduction of poker machines Mr Haermeyer interjected. has been at the right pace. These are extraordinary figures. Sixty-five per cent of Victorians who were Mr HULLS - As the honourable member for Yan surveyed agreed with the following statement: Yean says, the Premier is treating the minister as a mushroom. He will find the government is getting Gambling does not create any new economic activity, it rid of the 50:50 rule and it is about to increase the just redistributes income from one sector to another. number of gaming machines from 27500 to at least 30 000. The minister will have to sell that to his Some of these figures are extraordinary. I would be electorate. interested to hear what the Minister for Gaming has to say about the government allowing another The honourable member for Bennettswood has a casino into the state, because we know the Crown choice. He can walk the plank like his mate; he can Casino monopoly runs out in the next few years. take the Cheryl Kernot option and join the However, 95 per cent of the people surveyed opposition with its sensible gaming policy; or he can disagreed with the statement that: show that he is a spineless jellyback and stay with the mob on the other side of the house. As I said, Victoria should have more casinos. most research supports the opposition's policies. In 1996 research was undertaken on the positive and Eighty-five per cent of respondents expressed strong negative perceptions of gambling in the state. I hope disagreement with that statement. Some of the all members have read it because it is an excellent figures refer to the Community Support Fund. I am resource document. It makes dear the public tempted to read the whole report, but I will refer to perceptions in relation to gaming in Victoria and just three more sets of astounding figures that we particularly the perceptions about the government's should all take note of. Some 84 per cent of those policies on gambling. surveyed agreed with the proposition that gambling in Victoria is a social problem for many, and I shall pick out some excerpts from the research. It 86 per cent agreed with the following proposition: shows dearly that people believe the government is not regulating the industry properly and is too busy Increasingly, people having problems with gambling promoting it. The research shows that 50 per cent of are those least able to spend money on gambling. the people surveyed strongly agreed with the statement that gambling is too widely accessible in One can deduce from that that people believe that Victoria. Females were more inclined to agree with gaming machines are being placed in lower that statement than males. Some 84 per cent agreed socioeconomic areas and that gaming operators are with the proposition that gambling-related problems preying on people in less well-off suburbs. I do not have worsened over the past three years, with know whether any of us would disagree with that. respondents under 25 years indicating a 91 per cent We know the majority of gaming machines are level of agreement with that statement and 82 per located in the western suburbs and the like - and cent agreeing with the honourable member for most Victorians have the same view. Bennettswood that poker machines should not be offered in licensed premises in shopping centres. Sixty-two per cent of those surveyed agreed with the The research showed that 86 per cent disagreed with proposition that the increased availability of the statement that there were not enough hotels and gambling opportunities have resulted in an clubs with poker machines. From that you can increased crime rate. Another survey result reveals deduce that those 86 per cent were saying 27 500 that a majority agree with the proposition that the machines are enough and they do not want any government is spending too much time promoting more. Some 57 per cent agreed with the statement the industry rather than properly regulating it. that the number of poker machines in Victoria should be reduced. The statements that have been made by members of the community and members of Parliament, in particular the former honourable member for GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

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Mitcham, show that Victorians are telling the I was approached by Mr Bruce Mathieson some time government loudly and clearly that the industry prior to the listing of Guangdong Corporation. needs more control, not less. That has been reinforced by virtually every piece of research that Someone is telling porkies. has been undertaken. Unfortunately, the legislation reduces the powers of the Victorian Casino and Mr Reynolds interjected. Gaming Authority and further deregulates the industry. In my view that will increase the prospect Mr HULLS - lbis relates to the bill because it of shonks and fly-by-nighters getting involved in the goes to the credibility of the industry. industry - and that is the last thing Victorians want. The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - Regrettably, some of the major players in the Order! The honourable member will address the industry are questionable people. As the honourable Chair. member for Gippsland South knows, I am always reluctant to name particular people, but I am on the Mr HULLS - I recall the minister's record as expressing grave concern about a number second-reading speech, in which he said the bill goes of people in the industry, one of whom is Mr Bruce to the credibility of the industry. A major player in Mathieson, also known as Mr Bojangles. I notice the the industry is telling porkies, either that or the smirk on the face of the honourable member for Premier is telling porkies - or it could be both. If Gippsland South. No doubt Mr Mathieson has a Mr Mathieson is telling lies about his relationship hold on some gaming machines in his electorate - with the Premier, is he the sort of person we want as and no doubt some people have expressed concern a major player in the gaming industry? to the honourable member about the huge number of gaming machines controlled by Mr Mathieson. I will read some more recent quotes from Mr Mathieson. We all recall the infamous Four The reason I mention his name and the Corners program in September this year in which a appropriateness of his stranglehold on the industry former senior adviser to the Premier, Mr Stephen is to ensure not only that the Casino and Gaming Mayne, made very serious allegations about the Authority does its job properly and is given more Premier's share dealings. I do not want to talk about power rather than less but also that inappropriate them. The Premier has been done over and his people are not involved in the industry, and credibility has been tarnished forever as a result of Mr Mathieson is an inappropriate person. I could his using his office to get information the average make all sorts of allegations about his relationship punter could not get. On 3AW on 23 September 1997 with the Premier and his business dealings, but the an interview took place with the breakfast program fact is that he has been damned by his own words. hosts Dean Banks and Ross Stevenson.

During the Guangdong share affair he is reported to Mr Ryan interjected. have said that he had never done business with the Premier. That is what he said on the Four Corners Mr HULLS - I recall playing football against program that went to air in May about the Premier's Ross Stevenson some time ago. He was a lot involvement in the purchase of Guangdong shares thinner - and boy, did I fix him up! He was a bit through a company called Sino Securities, of which slow, as a matter of fact. Mr Mathieson is a director. Further, he was quoted as saying the same thing in the Herald Sun of 16 May Mr Ryan - Some things never change. 1996. There was a nice picture of Mr Bojangles, under which the following appeared: Mr HULLS - As we all know, that is not his real name, but I am not prepared to reveal it to the Never in my life, and I'll swear that on the grave of my house. Stephen Mayne was interviewed on the mother and entire family, have I approached him - program and made allegations about the Premier ringing Laurie Cox about some shares. He went on that is, the Premier - to speak about a whole range of other things.

or discussed anything to do with shares. Mr Reynolds interjected.

The picture next to his is that of the Premier, and Mr HULLS - lbis goes to the credibility of the under that the Premier is quoted as saying: industry. Guess who rang up during the GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 957 interview - none other than Mr Bojangles! Stephen It's as clear as daybreak. Mayne made an allegation about Bruce Mathieson, who rang in to defend himself and to say he had not Bruce Mathieson replied: had any dealings with the Premier concerning the purchase of shares. Stephen Mayne put this to Why would I worry about what the casino's got? Mr Mathieson: Stephen Mayne said: Well Bruce, I'll [tell] you one other thing that you actually discussed was I think when the Premier called Well, I think that about a week and a half earlier the you, you said hello and then you actually raised the government had awarded the casino licence and right issue of poker machine policy. through this three weeks they were making policy decisions about -- That is a serious accusation to be making, particularly in light of the fact that Bruce Mathieson Bruce Mathieson then said: has previously said on the public record he has never had business dealings with the Premier, that I couldn't care less if the casino had 5000,10 000, what I he has never approached the Premier about think, the casino is the best thing since sliced bread to anything. Stephen Mayne made the allegation, come through to this state. which has been unanswered by the Premier, that when the Premier rang Bruce Mathieson, he and I've got no problem, Why would I worry about that? Bruce talked about shares and also discussed That's just an absolute joke. gaming machine policy. If that is the case, Bruce Mathieson should be immediately run out of the Mr Ryan - Get to the bottom of it. industry. He should not be involved in the industry. Mr HULLS - Okay. The interviewer said: Mr Ryan - What was his answer? Bruce, we'll give you an opportunity when you get Mr HULLS - According to the interview your voice back to come in and have a chat. transcript, Stephen Mayne said: Bruce replied: You actually raised the issue of poker machine policy. It was a flippant -- I don't want an opportunity, I just wanted to make that point, I've never spoken to anyone about shares in any Bruce Mathieson asked: company that we have issued from Sino Securities, okay. I raised the issue of poker machine policy? He does not answer the accusation. I repeat what Stephen Mayne replied: Bruce Mathieson said:

Yes, it was just a flippant, not a flippant, but it was a I've never spoken to anyone about shares in any single question, you asked what's the situation going to company-- be with poker machines in light of, in relation to the casino. I suppose he spoke to the Premier about gaming machines, but he has not denied the accusation. The accusations get worse. The 3A W interviewer Further, the Premier has said he was approached by asked: Bruce Mathieson. The honourable member for Gippsland South says he denied it: he only denied What do you say about that, Bruce? having a conversation about shares. But the Premier said he did have a conversation with Mathieson Bruce replied: about shares. One of them is telling porkies! If that is the case, Bruce Mathieson is not a fit and proper Well, Dean, this man must have an unbelievable person to be involved in the industry. We should memory, this bloke. have more, not less, stringent controls.

After Stephen Mayne said: My other concern about the removal of the powers of the Victorian Casino and Gaming Authority GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

958 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 revolves around a recent AAT hearing when the Indeed, the probity checks on Uoyd Williams and opposition sought documents from the authority. I his association with a company called Dominion cannot remember the name of the gentleman who Properties were not carried out properly. That gave evidence on behalf of the authority. He was should be of concern to all Victorians. asked about how probity checks were undertaken on people involved in the industry. Further, an article by Kate McClymont, headed 'Police inquiries into casino brushed off', in the Age Mr Perrin interjected. of 17 August 1996 states:

Mr HULLS - It was a couple of months ago. The The operators of Crown Casino were given a probity opposition subpoenaed Bruce Mathieson to give clearance by Victoria's Casino Control Authority evidence in relation to the application. The person despite Victorian police raising areas of concern that from the authority, whose name escapes me, gave they believed needed further investigation. evidence that the probity checks related to criminal activity and inquired into whether a person had A former member of the Victorian gaming and vice prior convictions. He was asked whether a person's squad, which is responSible for assisting the CCA with business dealings were taken into account when its probity checks, said police concerns with the Crown assessing probity. As I recall it, he repeatedly consortium were brushed aside. answered that the authority looks at whether a person has any criminal convictions. At the time he That should cause Victorians grave concern. This made a statement to that effect and said the matter has been raised in the past. I hope we have authority's charter should be extended to enable it to learnt our lesson, that no longer can we allow take into account whether appropriate business probity checks to be brushed off. They should be practices are followed by a particular person when aimed at scrutinising all people involved in the deciding whether he or she should be allowed to gaming industry. That means we should give the become involved in the gaming industry. Victorian Casino and Gaming Authority more not less power. This bill gives the authority less power If that were the case, and appropriate business because it removes from the authority the ability to practices were taken into account, Bruce Mathieson investigate an applicant's financial background. I would be excluded from involvement in the will shortly refer to what I regard as a dangerous industry. A person who is prepared to use his measure. influence, to contact the Premier and talk with him about gaming policy, should not be allowed to My concerns about some people involved in the become involved in the industry. Mr Mathieson is industry relate to the bill because in his prepared to use his influence at every available second-reading speech the minister said the industry opportunity and should be thrown out of the must be squeaky clean, that probity checks must be industry. We do not want shonks and charlatans in of the highest standard. I am concerned at the the industry. We want a more tightly regulated unexplained conduct of a major player in the industry; shonks and charlatans should be kicked industry. His conduct may be above board but it out. needs explanation.

It appears obvious that Mr Mathieson has told lies A former senior adviser to the Premier, Alister on many occasions; he has told lies in an attempt to Drysdale, is now one of the senior players in the hide his relationship with the Premier. Victorian gaming industry. As the house may be Consequently, he is not a fit and proper person to be aware, Mr Drysdale has a highly paid position with involved in the industry. The probity checks must be Tattersalls. Indeed, Alister Drysdale has been of the highest standard; they should not simply refer around the traps for quite some time. to people's criminal records but to their business ethics. Mr Perrin interjected.

In the past grave concern has been expressed as to Mr HULLS - I am telling the honourable whether probity checks have been properly carried member that we must be absolutely vigilant in out. Mr Xavier Connor, QC, made it clear that scrutinising all people in the industry. The proposed probity checks on prospective casino operators, legislation removes some of the powers of the carried out during the casino tendering process, authority. We have let Bruce Mathieson get through were inadequate and were conducted too quickly. GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

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the checks; he should not be involved in the industry For instance, clause 11 amends section 21 of the and has been damned by his own admissions. principal act, the Gaming Machine Control Act. Section 21 deals with matters that are to be I am now raising questions about the conduct of considered when determining an application for a Alister Drysdale. We only have to cast our minds venue operator's licence. For example, each back to the scene at the tower of power, the fact that applicant and associate of the applicant must be of Mr Drysdale, while a senior adviser to the good repute having regard to character, honesty and Premier - and no doubt, advising the Premier on integrity. None of us would disagree with those gaming policy or about the amount of money that things being taken into account. should be sought from Tattersalls for a retrospective licence fee - was able to purchase a discounted The legislation also says that the authority must apartment from Hudson Conway. His purchase was assess whether each person seeking to become made during the tender process for Melbourne's involved in the industry has a sound and stable casino licence. He was appointed in about the financial background. That is appropriate in middle of 1993 as a special adviser to the Premier. ensuring that $2 companies do not become involved in the industry and that the operators of those He agreed to pay $295 300 for his two-bedroom companies are not able, as they were in the 198Os, to apartment at level 13 of The Domain, formerly BHP run off to the banks, get huge amounts of money House, for $61 700 less than the advertised price. and set themselves up in the industry without Mr Drysdale must give a full explanation about how having stable financial backgrounds. he was able to negotiate such a depreciated price for that highly sought-after apartment when he was a Oause 11 omits paragraph (b) of section 21(2) of the senior adviser to the government. In any event, principal act. The Victorian Casino and Gaming Mr Drysdale has since left the Premier's office. As AuthOrity will no longer have any power to examine honourable members know, he is now a senior the financial stability and background of a person adviser to Tattersalls. I have no doubt that, as a seeking to become involved in the industry. Not senior adviser, he has been involved in some of the only can the opposition not understand the reason negotiations on the bill, which concerns moneys for the government's taking that power from the being paid by Tattersalls. I expect the bill would not Victorian Casino and Gaming Authority, it is also have been introduced without negotiations between vehemently opposed to the government's doing so. Tattersalls and the government, and I have no doubt So opposed is it that despite the good aspects of the that Mr Drysdale was involved. We must ensure bill the opposition will oppose it in its entirety. that the highest standards of probity apply to the gaming industry. I do not believe the legislation The opposition is steadfast in its view that the adds to those high standards; indeed, it takes away highest standards of probity have to apply to the from the standards currently in place. The legislation gaming industry. The minister has not been able to does a number of specific things, some of which are give a satisfactory explanation for removing from acceptable to the opposition. the Victorian Casino and Gaming Authority its power to investigate the financial background and Mr Reynolds interjected. stability of a person seeking to be involved in the industry. Instead he has said, 'That is a commercial Mr HULLS - Minister, they should not all be matter, and it is up to the lending authorities to acceptable to the government. I would hope that decide whether to lend money to that person'. you, professing as you do to be a man of integrity, would want the highest standards of integrity and This unique industry has the ability to exert probity to apply to the industry. enormous influence and to reap millions of dollars for those involved in it. It also has the potential to Mr Reynolds interjected. attract unsavoury characters. As a result, the most stringent probity requirements should apply to Mr HULLS - The minister says the legislation those involved. Removing the ability of the Casino preserves them, but it does not. Some aspects of the and Gaming Authority to investigate a person's bill are totally unacceptable to the opposition - financial background and whether he is a financially namely, those that diminish the powers of the fit and proper person to be involved is totally Victorian Casino and Gaming Authority and some unacceptable and vehemently opposed by the of the probity requirements that currently apply. opposition. GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

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Clause 7 establishes a new scheme whereby the Authority has to be advised when special employees authority can approve certain premises as suitable commence or cease work at particular venues. The for gaming. In giving such approval, the size, layout legislation ensures we have appropriate people in and facilities of premises and the adequacy of the the industry and that there is some tracking by the proposed security arrangements must be Casino and Gaming Authority of the people considered. The approval must specify the number involved. That is another measure to eliminate of gaming machines permitted and the gaming shonks and charlatans who can pass through the net machine areas. Under the current legislation, a without their whereabouts being advised to the person applying for a venue operator's licence must authority. The bill eliminates those requirements. have a particular premises in mind, and the application must be accompanied by a contract to Again, the opposition believes that is a further install gaming machines. deregulation of the industry; it is inappropriate and unnecessary and will allow some of the dishonest According to the minister, under the new system a people in the industry to be lost. People working in a person will be approved to run a venue, the venue particular venue may be involved in some corrupt will be approved and, finally, the marrying of the and illegal practices, but rather than invoke the heat person and the venue will be approved. The of the authorities they will be dismissed from that opposition foresees some problems with the system venue, and if they are not tracked they will pop up down the track. A large number of venues may be at another venue. The people who should not be in approved without any consideration of the social the industry are currently unable to be tracked, and and economic impact on the surroundings. their whereabouts should be advised to the Casino and Gaming Authority. That is a diminution of the Under the bill the authority will be able to release probity requirements of the industry, and the lists showing who holds venue operator licences and opposition is opposed to that aspect of the who is on the roll of manufacturers. It is about time legislation. that happened. Although I am an advocate of the Casino and Gaming Authority having more rather Some minor provisions of the bill include allowing than less power, any member who has had any the Director of Gaming and Betting to object to an dealings with the authority would be somewhat application for a venue operator's licence and to give concerned about its secret nature. The authority acts the director a longer time in which to object. Further, somewhat like a secret society. when the authority approves gaming machines it only approves the integrity of the game, it does not Those members on both sides of the house who have actually approve any electrical aspects of the game. tried to get information from the authority have Again, the opposition warns the government that in realised they have had Buckley's chance of doing so. changing that aspect of the legislation it must ensure The government continues to say that the Casino that the games are in proper working order and that and Gaming Authority is absolutely independent of they must continue to undergo the highest form of government, yet when on various occasions probity checks in the industry. opposition staff and I have contacted the authority regarding questions of probity, specific aspects of Other aspects of the legislation allow manufacturers the casino licence or the extension of the casino, we to voluntarily take themselves off the roll of have been told to contact the minister's office! How recognised manufacturers, which is an aspect of the independent is that? Even the honourable member legislation to be welcomed. From the briefing I had for Gippsland South has a big smile on his face. He my understanding is that if a person is currently on realises that when the authority tells opposition the roll of manufacturers, whether the person likes it members that it cannot give them information and or not, he or she stays on that roll. The legislation that they ought to contact the minister's office changes that. instead, it shows its lack of independence. As I said, there is a provision for Tattersalls to pay a I shall deal briefly with the current requirement that supervision charge. Tabcorp currently pays a charge a special employee's licence will not be granted to the authority for the supervision of the wagering unless an applicant for that licence has a certificate and gaming aspects of its industry. I was advised of suitability from a particular venue. The reason for that Tabcorp pay about $3 million a year. Under the that is to ensure that appropriate people are new legislation Tattersalls will now be required to involved in the industry. Under the current pay its way, and the opposition does not object to legislation the Victorian Casino and Gaming that. The obnoxious aspects of the legislation far GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 961 outweigh the aspects the opposition supports. I am Mrs Maddigan - Or Essendon Airport. sure the minister will be able to advise the house whether Alister Drysdale, a former adviser to the Mr HULLS - Or Essendon or Moorabbin Premier, was involved in discussions surrounding airports into huge you-beaut gaming venues. At the the fee Tattersalls is being asked to pay. briefing I received - and I thank the minister for supplying it - I was advised that there is currently The Director of Gaming and Betting can approve the specific federal legislation in place that will prohibit use of machines that are not in working order. The gaming machines to exist at the new privatised machines are currently used for advertisements, Melbourne Airport. If that briefing and that training, technical requirements and the like. The assumption are correct, there will be no gaming legislation allows the minister to approve the machines or facilities at Tullamarine airport. The manufacture, sale and supply of machines outside Federal Airports Corporation still manages Victoria. The amendments to the Gaming and Essendon and Moorabbin airports. Why are we Betting Act give the Treasurer the power to exempt inserting in legislation a provision that will facilitate some of Tabcorp's revenue from taxation. Tabcorp is the setting up of gaming machines at Essendon currently participating in a national fixed-odds and/ or Moorabbin airports should there be a change betting pool. At the moment, as I understand it, the of heart in the federal government's views on these law requires Tabcorp to pay tax on the money that matters? One can draw only one conclusion: that comes in as a result of the national betting pool. The there are plans afoot to turn whatever development legislation allows Tabcorp to pay tax only on the takes place at Essendon Airport into a huge gaming Victorian share of that pool compared with the venue. This legislation facilitates that. One can only pooled money that comes into the state before it is assume that there are also plans afoot at Moorabbin distributed to other states. Again, that aspect of the Airport to ensure that part of what occurs is the legislation is not opposed by the opposition. prOvision of a huge gaming venue. Again, the bill facilitates that. I am sure this matter slipped passed Gause 33, which seeks to insert into the act section the minister at the table, who is sound asleep. I hope 12A(3), causes me some consternation. I am not sure when he wakes up he is able to address this very why it has been included in the bill, unless it is for important matter because the people of some sinister reason. The opposition will always Niddrie-- look for the sinister reason when it comes to gaming. The honourable member for Essendon may also Mr Reynolds interjected. wish to address this matter in her contribution. Gause 33 states, in part: Mr HULLS - The minister is yelling out obscenities across the table. That only confirms there In section 12A of the Principal Act, after sub-section (2) are plans to set up gaming venues at Essendon and insert- Moorabbin airports. The honourable member keeps yelling out 'Grub, grub, grub!' He can say that all he "(3) 1£- likes - what a grubby act to try to slip legislation (a) a person has been authorised by the Federal through this house to enable a huge gaming venue Airports Corporation to sell or supply liquor to be set up at Essendon and Moorabbin airports. from premises at a Federal airport within the The minister has to come clean. Why has clause 33 meaning of the Federal Airports Corporation been included in the bill? Act 1986 of the Commonwealth; and ... My constituents would be aghast if they knew this the authorised person is deemed, for the purposes of government, in cahoots with the federal this Act, to be the holder of a club licence referred to in government, plans to allow gaming machines at sub-section (1)(c) in respect of those premises. Essendon airport. The City of Moonee Valley (4) Despite sub-section (1), a person may not apply already has a proliferation of gaming machines. It under this Part for approval of prescribed premises has more gaming machines than most councils in or premises of a prescribed class.". Victoria. It does not want more. I am sure people down Moorabbin way would also be aghast if they I am at a loss to understand what on earth that knew this government and the federal government provision is all about. I was concerned that it was plan to allow gaming machines to be set up at inserted to enable gaming machines to be set up at Moorabbin airport. Although the bill has some good airports. I suggest that Victorians would be aghast if aspects, for that whole raft of reasons, the opposition they believed there was any plan to turn opposes it. Tullamarine airport -- GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

962 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997

The reasons for its opposition are the diminution of from her position with the Premier's department. probity requirements, the authority's loss of the She has gone to join the ANZ Bank, a fact that has ability to track people involved in the industry and been well published. I am willing to bet there will the huge question mark surrounding the come a time when the name of Ms Elizabeth Proust government's plans for Essendon and Moorabbin will be dragged along the ground in a similar airports. The opposition seeks from the minister a fashion for no appropriate reason, merely because it further explanation, particularly of clause 33. serves the grubby politics we have heard today.

Mr RYAN (Gippsland South) - I welcome the Speaking of the word 'grubby', I refer to the attacks opportunity to join the debate on the Gaming Acts on the minister for his interjections. The reason the

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 963 today was that the bill will prevent the authority the conduct of the casino operator, were carefully from performing its functions - an appropriate way investigated as part of the review. to buck up the authority. On the other hand, when a viewpoint does not suit your purposes from a The house should remember that the review was political perspective, kick it to death. You do it in a conducted under terms of reference that were way that has precious little to do with the merits of approved by the Auditor-General, who engaged an the argument. You attack personalities and you independent auditor for the process, because it is the attack the authority for the way it does its job, all on key to what I am coming to. The report goes on to the basis that improper influence has been exerted say: on it and its membership. Don't muck around: say it. If you want to call them crooks, call them crooks. If It was the unanimous opinion of all members of the the opposition believes the Casino and Gaming authority, following completion of the review process, Authority has been nobbled, it should come out and that the casino operator is a suitable person to continue say so rather than hedging around it. to hold the casino licence and that it is in the public interest that the casino licence should continue in force. Some honourable members have read out sections of The authority's report has been released by the the 1996-97 annual report of the Victorian Casino Minister for Gaming. and Gaming Authority, which was tabled today. I will also read from the report, because it is relevant There it is in one. To go back to taws, that is what the to the issue of probity and to the overall position of Casino and Gaming Authority says about the casino the authority. The chairman's report refers to the operation. It has been no swprise that for a number authority having presented the results of its first of years leading up to today we have heard three-year review of the suitability of the casino innuendo and fabrications about the individuals and operator and licence to the Minister for Gaming on entities associated with the casino and its 30 June 1997. It contains a comment about the development. There was the much-mooted federal inquiry, saying at page 6: inquiry, which was an absolute fiasco. Didn't that hit the ground running! Gerry Hand, a former federal The tenns of reference of the review were approved by Labor minister, bagged it before it even got going. the Auditor-General. The inquiry fell over because there was nothing anybody wanted to say to it. Absolutely nothing has I will stop there for a moment, because we would be been brought forward that could stand examination the first to say that he is the patron saint of this and result in the sorts of outcomes suggested by the place. I repeat: the terms of reference were approved honourable member for Niddrie - let alone by the Auditor-General. However, we heard nothing anything that could alter the outcome of the report about that from opposition members. The report from the Casino and Gaming Authority. goes on to say: Mr Hulls interjected. An independent process auditor was appointed to overview the review process. Mr RYAN - How is that going in the context of the sorts of issues the authority directs its attention As has been his wont, the Auditor-General to and comes to conclusions about? appointed an independent process auditor. He has done so in 75 per cent of the cases in which he has Mr Hulls interjected. been involved. The next allegation we will hear from opposition members will be that that person was Mr RY AN - How is he going? There is a crook! The report goes on to say: message in that. The suggestion is that the authority did not touch on it. I am not the authority, and I The process auditor, Mr Ron Pitcher from Pitcher have nothing to do with it. The suggestion is that Partners, has reported that the review was conducted somehow the authority ignored that purposely and 'in a manner which ensured procedural integrity'. so did not turn its mind to it, which has a certain implication, or that it looked at it and decided to The authority received two submissions from dismiss it, which has another implication. interested parties in response to its public advertisements. These submissions, together with all Mr Hulls interjected. matters that had been the subject of comment in the federal and state parliaments and the media relating to GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

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Mr RYAN - Don't worry about the implications; That is a terrific development - but I do not want to get up and accuse them of it straight out, if that is pursue that too far because I may get off the track! what you are saying about the authority and its membership. So far as I am concerned, the chairman, The honourable member for Niddrie said there Mr John Richards, did a terrific job, and I am sure should be more regulation and control of Tabcorp Mrs Sue Winneke will do likewise in her current role. and Tattersalls, which was a classic assertion. When in government, the Labor Party created a duopoly Reference was made to research documents for the benefit of the two organisations that were prepared at the behest of the authority. The aim was then running gaming, and it did not charge them a to bag the authority because it did not carry out cracker. To this day I still muse about how the independent research. However, in support of his boards of the respective organisations must have sat arguments the honourable for Niddrie read into waiting in fear and trepidation for their negotiating Hansard some of the outcomes of the research. The teams to come back from discussions with the two-faced nature of that almost makes me ill. minister of the day to tell them how much they would be charged for being handed the licences. At the end of it all, he talked about the public's concern about the effect gaming is having on They must have been trembling in their chairs! Can communities around the state. Granted, there is a you imagine the absolute wonder they experienced measure of concern about that, and to a degree the when they discovered it had been handed over to honourable member is right. However, that is why them for nothing - not a red cent! the government has introduced the legislation as carefully as it has. We must never lose sight of the The Kennett government has righted a wrong done fact that the structure of the legislation was by the Labor Party. About $400 million of the established by the former Labor government, yet Tabcorp float - which the Labor Party tried to opposition members now bitch and moan about it. sabotage - was devoted to the fees that should have All the government has done is take the structure been collected by the former Labor government. and make it work. Tattersalls has paid a similar amount of money.

When the previous government left office in 1992, its I now intend to rebut the points made by the policy was that Victoria should have 45 000 gaming honourable member for Niddrie. It is very easy in machines, but the government has limited the this place - we must all resist the temptation - to number to 27 500, which will be reviewed around damage people's good names by raising allegations the end of the year. I am sorry the honourable that have no foundation. Even if foundations exist, member for Niddrie has left the chamber, because I nonetheless one must be very careful about using would have liked him to listen to the facts, which parliamentary privilege. Over the past couple of would be a help the next time he makes a years there has been a litany of commentary, contribution on the issue. Members from his own particularly from the honourable member for side are just as sick of him as we are. Niddrie as well as the Labor Party in general. Even if there are elements of truth to the allegations, the law I accept that there is a degree of disquiet about the should take its course and the people concerned operation of the industry in Victoria. Nevertheless, should pay the penalty. However, it is unfortunate about 12 million people a year visit the complex on that this forum is used repeatedly for that sort of the south bank of the Yarra, about 10 per cent of theme when such allegations have no foundation. which is devoted to the casino and about 90 per cent of which is devoted to all sorts of other things, The bill has a number of essential features that are including shopping the likes of which I can only clearly set out in its explanatory memorandum. So dream about. Many people close to this place are far as the Gaming Machine Control Act is concerned, known to travel down there and spend the odd hour the bill provides for the imposition of a supervision in the casino and its precincts. charge on Tattersalls. This will bring Tattersalls into line with Tabcorp. I am sure all honourable members The money from the Community Support Fund that agree that is fair and reasonable. I understand that has gone to various initiatives throughout Victoria is the honourable member for Niddrie believes that is also pertinent to the issue of gaming and gambling. appropriate. Only last week I announced a grant of $180 000 to rebuild the structure around the Maffra recreation The bill provides for the separation of the current reserve, which has been there for about 100 years. venue operators licence into two parts: firstly, the GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AM ENDM ENT) BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 965 licensing of the individual venue operator and, many people who want to enter the industry may be secondly, the approval of the premises as being discriminated against because they cannot satisfy suitable for gaming. That is a sensible move. During the authority - as opposed to the commercial the past two or three months in Sale a hotel sale markets - that they will be able to operate their failed because of the inordinate amount of time businesses soundly. On that basis the authority taken going through the various processes involved asked that the provision be incorporated in the bill. in satisfying the requirements of the legislation. The time was not inordinate in the sense of the authority The bill provides clarification that the Director of fulfilling its statutory requirements but in the sense Gaming and Betting can formally object to the of effecting the contract. The purchaser was unable authority in relation to the granting of a venue to satisfy the requirements of the legislation within operators licence at any time before the licence is the 90 or 120-day term of the contract. granted. That clarifies a legal opinion. Under the current act there was some doubt about the ability of The bill provides that a person wishing to enter the the Director of Gaming and Betting to object. It was industry can undergo the gamut of probity checks never intended that the director be bound by a prescribed in the legislation and become requirement of 14 or 21 days as the act currently appropriately licensed similar to the way people provides; rather there should be an opportunity for obtain drivers licences before buying cars. The him to object when appropriate. person will then be able to begin searching for an appropriate venue to conduct the business. The bill The bill provides for the abolition of the requirement breaks the nexus between the two stages and that is that the authority approve the form of contract sensible. However, the questions about the between a gaming operator and a venue operator for legitimacy of venues remain in place with all the the supply of gaming machines. Again, the authority other protocols that must be fulfilled. There is no is put on the same basis as that in clause 11. The bill diminution of the probity issues. The security also abolishes the requirement that an application elements must be properly complied with. The for a special employees licence must be amendment makes it more convenient for those accompanied by a certificate of suitability from the wishing to enter the industry. applicant's employer or prospective employer. This reflects the evolutionary nature of the legislation. It The bill removes the requirement for the authority to was found that that provision discriminated against investigate the financial stability of an applicant for people who want to work. A person had to troop a venue operators licence. The honourable member around the neighbourhood to get someone to give for Niddrie referred to the much-maligned clause 11, them a job, sign up and then go along to be which he believes diminishes the authority's power. authorised. That was putting the cart before the He criticised the government and asked why the horse. The bill corrects the order of events by change was necessary. The simple answer is that the enabling people to be licensed appropriately before authority sought it. Acting on the advice of the seeking positions. authority the government included the provision in the bill. The authority determined, in its wisdom, The requirement that an employer notifies the that the legislation serves no practical purpose in the authority of the commencement or the cessation of commercial world. Indeed, the minister's employment of a licensed employee is abolished. second-reading speech referred to the current That provision has been criticised. However, the legislative requirement for the authority to Gaming and Betting Act and other gaming acts have investigate the financial soundness and stability of plenty of details provided about special employees. the applicant. The authority considers the suitability The police constantly update their records on or otherwise of the sources of the applicant's income convictions and other difficulties from the criminal as part of its probity assessment, but there will no perspective and there are many opportunities for longer be a requirement to make a judgment on the those matters to be considered if necessary. sufficiency of the applicant's financial resources. That is an issue that will be left to the markets A further amendment is that the authority rather because they are better able to make those sorts of than the Director of Gaming and Betting is to judgments. determine applications to be listed on the Roll of Recognised Manufacturers and Suppliers under the One of the concerns was that it is not the role of the Gaming Machine Control Act. This is another authority to make judgments about the capacity of a revolutionary provision. It is more appropriate that person to conduct a business. The risk was that GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

966 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 it be handled this way rather than as originally be congratulated on it, and it is my pleasure to intended. commend it to the house.

The bill makes it clear that the authority's approval Mrs MADDIGAN (Essendon) - I join other of gaming equipment is limited to ensuring player members of the opposition in opposing the bill. I returns, game fairness and security, but it does not congratulate the honourable member for Gippsland include considerations of electrical safety or South on finally addressing the bill in the last few reliability. That is because of legal concern that if a minutes of his speech. The first 20 minutes were machine caught fire, somehow the approval of that amazing. For 10 minutes he attacked the honourable machine for the purposes of the act could be member for Niddrie, accusing him of wrongly regarded as an acceptance of legal liability for what naming people in this house. Then he named people is essentially a manufacturer's liability problem. whom he claims the Labor Party will attack and bad mouth in the future. He himself is guilty of naming The bill also makes it clear that the authority can people who have never been mentioned in relation release lists of venue operators and the persons or to the bill. He then went on to say that it was all the companies listed on the roll of recognised fault of the previous Labor government because it manufacturers and suppliers. Again, that has been introduced the Gambling Machine Control Bill in included at the request of those concerned. It is a bit 1991. like playing for Australia - getting off the roll has proved to be more difficult than getting on it in the To listen to the honourable member for Gippsland first place! Further, there is provision for the South one would think the act had been sitting there authority to authorise the possession of gaming untouched by the government. The government has machines or restricted components solely for use changed the gaming regulations more often than outside Victoria. That relates to using machines for most people in Victoria have had hot dinners. One display purposes and the like. only has to look at the bill to see how many goes the government has had at trying to get it right, and it The amendment of the Gaming and Betting Act has not succeeded yet. enables the Treasurer to exempt from taxation specified amounts of the net investment in approved The house passed the Gaming Machine Control betting competitions at fixed odds conducted by the (General Amendment) Bill in 1993, the Gaming and licensee or operator in Victoria. The honourable Betting Bill in 1994, the Gaming No. 2 Bill in 1997, member for Niddrie summed up the situation well. and the Gaming Acts (Further Amendment) Act in The essence of the amendment is that we want to be 1997. It is no wonder that this is called the Gaming paying tax through Tabcotp only on that part of the Acts

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 967 which most of our constituents are not happy about. get their fair share of funding. Unfortunately, the Government members must have had constituents people whose applications for funding have been complaining to them about the way gaming operates refused have not been given any reasons. There are in the state, particularly the number and location of no guidelines saying that people should be told why gaming machines. I notice there are no government they cannot get funding. It really is the Premier's backbenchers in the house, apart from the slush fund. honourable member for Prahran. I would be surprised if many backbenchers did not feel nervous A recent report by a parliamentary intern broke about the gaming machines in their electorates, and I down the successful applications for money from the am sure the discussions about gaming machines Community Support Fund. It showed that they have with their constituents are different from metropolitan areas gained a huge amount compared those they admit to during debates in this place. with country areas. Liberal Party-held seats, especially Liberal Party-held marginal seats, gained When one goes through the clauses one continually by far the majority of funds. sees evidence of the removal of regulations. Clause 9 amends section 19(1) of the principal act by The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr McArthud - removing the requirement that an application for a Order! Will the honourable member advise the Chair venue operator's licence must be made in respect of how her remarks relate to the bill? specific premises. Clause 11, which has been referred to by the honourable members for Niddrie and Mrs MADDIGAN - They relate to the bill Gippsland South, removes requirements concerning because I am referring to the number of gaming the financial stability and soundness of applicants. machines in the western suburbs. The bill provides Clause 18 amends section 300) by removing the for the renewal of licences for some of those venues, suitability of the premises as a ground for which have been operating for five years. disciplinary action against a venue operator. Clauses 20, 21, 24 and 29 also remove many of the The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! That is a provisions that currently regulate the industry. tenuous link, and I advise the honourable member to concentrate on the bill. There is increasing concern about the effects of gambling and about the lack of control over the Mrs MADDIGAN - I will concentrate on the location of gambling machines, particularly in the clause that relates to the renewal of licences, which I western suburbs. I was pleased to hear the am glad the Acting Speaker has reminded me of. honourable member for Gippsland South speak Clause 7 inserts new part 2A relating to the renewal about Maffra receiving $180 000 from the of venue licences for five years or more. Essendon Community Support Fund. But I would like to know was one of the first areas to have gaming machines, how many poker machines there are in Maffra to particularly at the Moonee Valley Racecourse and support that return to the community. the Essendon Football Club. I am concerned that in the licence renewal process no assessment is made of The western suburbs has four times as many gaming the disparity in the spread of poker machines in the machines as the eastern suburbs. What returns are metropolitan area. When gaming licences are up for the people of the western suburbs getting from the renewal the government should consider a fairer Community Support Fund? The answer is very little. spread of machines so they are not all dispersed in The City of Moonee Valley has the second largest the western suburbs. number of poker machines in the state, yet the electors of Essendon have received nothing from the A number of articles have been written about the Community Support Fund for specific projects. effects of gaming machines in poor socioeconomic areas. Considerable concern has been expressed Mr Hamilton - How many poker machines? about the licensing of machines. If the government That's what we want to know. was concerned about the level of gambling in Victoria, it would have taken account of, and Mrs MADDIGAN - As I said, the City of imposed more restrictions on, the number of gaming Moonee Valley has many poker machines, far more machines. than Maffra or towns in other Liberal-held seats where the money from the Community Support In America gaming machines have been in operation Fund seems to flow freely. People from the western for many years. Strong government initiatives have suburbs have attempted to find out why they do not led to studies on the effects on society of gaming GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AM ENDM ENT) BILL

968 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 machines, including the release of an August 1997 replicated in predicting the number of problem report on their effects on the community in Oregon. gamblers who would seek treatment in two Australian The study particularly examined the problem of states. pathological gamblers. The 1997 report of Dickerson, Estimating the extent I refer to the definition by the American Psychiatric and degree of gambling related problems in the Association of 'pathological gambler' as contained in Australian population: a national survey, was released the report to the Oregon Gambling Addiction after its authors had spoken to nearly 3000 people in TreattnentFoundation: four Australian states, including Victoria, to identify gamblers. A number of important points are made The essential features of pathological gambling are a about the approval to allow gambling machines in continuous or periodic loss of control over gambling; a various community locations. The report states: progression, in gambling frequency and amounts wagered, in the preoccupation with gambling and in .. , the most significant finding was that 1.16 per cent ... obtaining moneys with which to gamble; and a of the adult population in Australia were likely to be continuation of gambling involvement despite adverse problem gamblers. The majority were men aged 19 to consequences. 29 years who preferred offcourse betting or machine gaming (if readily available). In its conclusion the report identifies the problem of pathological gambling as being expensive and one The phrase 'readily available' is important - with which that state is trying to deaL The report refers specifically to the location of gaming As a group, the problem gamblers all scored 10 or more machines. Its conclusion states: points on the SOGS scale and may have strong similarities with identified pathological gamblers as The costs of gambling problems can be high, not only defined in ... the American Psychiatric Association, for individuals but for families and communities. 1987, who formed the original criterion group ... Pathological gamblers experience physical and psychological stress and exhibit substantial rates of The identified problem gamblers in the present study depression, alcohol and drug dependence and suicidal described a variety of negative impacts of their ideation. The families of pathological gamblers gambling that included significant personal and experience physical and psychological abuse as well as interpersonal distress, loss of time and efficiency in harassment and threats from bill collectors and work, debts and criminal offences to support their creditors. Other Significant impacts include costs to gambling. employers, creditors, insurance companies, social service agencies and the civil and criminal justice The placement and access of gaming machines is a systems. significant factor in the number of people who are encouraged to become pathological gamblers. The first step usually taken by governments in Although only a small percentage of people become response to an emerging social problem is to determine pathological gamblers, it is estimated that they the number of individuals who may be in need of spend as much as 25 per cent of their money on assistance as a result of a specific government policy or poker machines. The honourable member for activity. The next step is to develop a range of services Bennettswood was reported in the Herald Sun as for affected individuals and their families. In the wake having that concern. He referred to the negative of widespread gambling legalisation in the 19805 and impact of the convenient location of gaming 1990s, governments have moved forward in machines. implementing measures to educate the public as well as treatment profesSionals and gaming operators about I emphasise the phrase in the American report about problem gambling. machines being 'readily available'. The ready availability of machines in hotels and shopping Recently, researchers in Australia have successfully centres must cause concern. The local community in used an approach adopted from the alcoholism Broadmeadows has certainly expressed concern treatment field to predict the proportion of individuals about the number of machines in its area. I refer to in need of problem gambling treatment services who clause 33, which the honourable member for Niddrie would access such services. Research suggesting that referred to, about the Federal Airports Corporation. approximately 3 per cent of individuals with severe He raised a reasonable point. I was surprised -- alcohol-related difficulties actually seek treatment was GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 969

Mr Hamilton - Without advice. At the moment there is a dispute over that area because the state government was not allowed to Mrs MADDIGAN - Of course, I was somewhat build the airport at Tullamarine; the Premier got his surprised at the minister calling him a grub but I do knickers in a knot and refused to discuss the not deny that what the honourable member for Essendon Airport issue. That concerns the residents Niddrie said was true. of Essendon particularly when this legislation is about the place, because it affects the use of the land This legislation is interesting because of the present at Essendon Airport. Essendon residents would like status of negotiations between the federal and state to know who will have responsibility for planning governments about the future development of and what sort of controls will be over the airport Essendon Airport. land. The only way a financial return can be gained from that acreage is by having non-aviation facilities Mr Finn interjected. a t the airport.

Mrs MADDIGAN - I thank the honourable Mr Finn interjected. member for Tullamarine. Many residents of Essendon would like to meet him; perhaps he would Mrs MADDIGAN - With all due respect -- like to visit the area. I shall certainly arrange a meeting for him! The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! The honourable member for Tullamarine will get the call As the honourable member for Tullamarine is no in due course. I am satisfied that the honourable doubt aware, there is an ongoing dispute between member's comments are relevant to the bill. the federal and state governments about planning controls over the Essendon Airport. The federal Mrs MADDIGAN - Essendon Airport recorded government wanted to sell it but the Premier, who is a profit only because depreciation was omitted. If I still-- could record my assets and ignore my housing loan, I would appear to be much better off financially too. The ACI1NG SPEAKER (Mr McArthud - Because the state and federal governments cannot Order! I am having some trouble understanding reach agreement on the future of the Essendon site, how the comments of the honourable member relate the possibility of the introduction of gaming to a bill about gaming machines. machines on the site is of concern. The federal government wishes to sell the airport, but because Mr Hulls - On a point of order, Mr Acting the state government refuses to take over planning Speaker, clause 33 specifically refers to the Federal controls the federal government is now intending to Airports Corporation. Indeed, for your information lease the airport. on the briefing of the bill I was advised that this particular clause could apply to Essendon Airport The federal government, through the Office of Asset and Moorrabin Airport. Sales, is seeking to maximise the profit it can get from the lease of the site. Essendon residents would The ACI1NG SPEAKER - Order! The query I be most concerned if the federal government was raising with the honourable member for allowed a diminution in the Federal Airports Essendon was how any dispute between the state Corporation's control over gaming machines, which and federal governments about the management of obviously are highly profitable. Essendon Airport was relevant to this bill. It is odd that at the moment the second highest Mrs MADDIGAN - It is relevant because of the revenue raiser at Essendon Airport is the advertising planning controls. Who has the planning controls signs around the airport. Obviously, further income over the land now occupied by Essendon Airport? will be sought in a range of areas. We are concerned Who controls the 305 hectares at that airport? that the federal government, in an effort to get a Concerns have been raised about this provision, that reasonable price for the airport, will allow an easing if planning controls are relinquished by the Federal of planning and other control provisions. The Airports Corporation to the state government, as provisions of the bill relating to that matter raise a suggested by the federal government, gaming question to which the residents of Essendon and machines would be allowed at Essendon Airport. Niddrie and others in the western suburbs would That is in line with the information gathered by the like to know the answer. That question has not been honourable member for Niddrie at the briefing. answered, and at this stage it cannot be satisfactorily GAMING ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

970 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 answered unless the government is prepared to In my opinion, when somebody is prepared to put a amend and thereby tighten the bill's provisions in few million dollars towards building a gaming view of the lack of planning controls relating to venue on Crown or council land that has a long-term Essendon Airport's leasehold future. lease, something is afoot. People do not normally risk such amounts of money when investing in I shall conclude shortly to give the honourable community clubs and organisations. Entrepreneurs, member for Keilor time to contribute to the debate. on reading the bill, must believe they can make His electorate is also blighted by poker machines. It money out of it. is clear that there is strong community concern about the control of gaming machines in Victoria. If The provisions are supposed to benefit local scouts, government members deny that, I can only say they school halls, footy or cricket clubs or other charitable are not listening to the community or their organisations, but how much will the person putting constituents. Such concern is not just restricted to a in the money for the venue receive for paying off the few people in the western suburbs. There is broad loan and the risk he or she has taken? Obviously, he concern and dissatisfaction with the government's must be getting more money than he would from gaming machines policy. There is great concern and interest on money in the bank or share market frequent discussion of issues such as those raised by investments. I am concerned about what is not spelt the honourable member for Niddrie. There are out in the bill and how that is already influencing rumours in the community that the number of what is happening in my electorate. gaming machines may be increased. I ask the government to reconsider the bill. The opposition There is an old homestead in Keilor. A road had certainly will be opposing it. It is not the way to run been built around it. One morning it was discovered gambling in this state. that chainsaws had been used overnight to chop down gum trees, cypress trees and other established Mr SEITZ (Keilor) - I shall make a few trees from the homestead site without the required observations on the Gaming Acts (Miscellaneous council permits having been sought. After Amendment) Bill and express my concern about investigation I found that somebody had applied to whether the amendments will again make it easier the council for a club permit for the site, including a for entrepreneurs to move into the gaming area, permit for underground car parking and an upstairs establishing gaming venues in working-class areas area licensed to operate until 3.00 a.m. Again an and taking money out of those areas. An investor was trying to get a permit to build a venue. entrepreneur might think, 'With these amendments, He would then get a community club, an AFL club I will be able to get a licence to operate a gaming or some other local club, to apply for a poker venue and shop around for a suitable premise or machine permit. The site is in the middle of a create a premise for that purpose'. housing area, with no commercial development in the surrounding area. People are already prepared There has already been a major public campaign in to move on the legislation. What will be the my area about gaming. The community was contractual arrangements for the investor who puts concerned that Water Gardens, the new shopping up the money and the club, not to mention the taxes centre in Sydenham, had not been included on the the government will collect? list of centres to be automatically excluded as gaming venues. Thanks to the work of the minister, In the media it has been stressed that the northern that centre has been listed as being automatically and north-western suburbs have the highest density excluded. of poker machines. No more machines can be licensed for pubs, so investors are trying to use the Now entrepreneurs in my district are approaching backdoor method of creating buildings and centres community clubs and other organisations saying, 'If and using community groups to increase the you get a long-term lease on Crown or council land, number of poker machines. we will put $1 million or $2 million towards building a gaming premise that meets the Government members would agree that the original requirements of the bill'. Under the bill, once the intention was to assist community clubs and venue has been approved and those involved hold a organisations to get into gaming and install poker licence, the Victorian Casino and Gaming Authority machines so they could compete with gaming does not have to look any further at the contractual venues and therefore be self sufficient. The minister agreement. can confirm this with me later but, based on my reading of the bill and as illustrated by the two PODIATRISTS REGISTRATION BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 971 examples I have given, it is anticipated that the same The minister has not explained all of the issues. At disclosure provisions will not apply. No-one will first glance the bill glosses over the administration of examine contractual agreements, how much is being the act but it has a far greater and deeper meaning. I paid for a venue or the background of the people am concemed about the availability of so much who get the licence. Many community groups will cheap land, particularly in my electorate. Any say, 'If we can get an extra $10 000 a year, we will private entrepreneur can buy land, build a enter into a contract'. clubhouse, form a community group, tell it to apply for the licence and then reap the profit from rental. The people who put the money up and build the My concerns may be superficial now, but if you centres will be the ones making the money from the consider what is going on in the City of Brimbank at leasing and running of those centres. They will this very moment that is exactly what the bill allows probably finish up getting management fees, rental people to do. What are the safeguards for the fees, maintenance fees and so on. The moneys that community clubs and groups who are trying to are supposed to be going to the club will be make money to promote support in their areas dissipated in that manner. That is of great concem to rather than finishing up with rental and me, and that is why I am raising the issue. management fees in the hands of private entrepreneurs? Many of my constituents can ill afford gaming. Despite youth suicides and other signs of Debate adjourned on motion of Ms BURKE desperation in the area, the Community Support (Prahran). Fund is not providing money. Recently the Good Shepherd Foundation applied to the Community Debate adjourned until later this day. Support Fund for the funding of interest-free loans. The fund said the proposal's criteria did not match Sitting suspended 6.34 p.m. until 8.03 p.m. the criteria for the grants. PODIATRISTS REGISTRATION BILL The Good Shepherd Foundation established the St Albans centre and staged a number of community Government amendments circulated by activities that local groups could not run any more Dr NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and because of govemment cutbacks to community Community Services) pursuant to sessional orders. grants in general. It has now been refused a grant for this worthwhile project. Second reading

In many cases interest-free loans allow people who Debate resumed from 18 September; motion of have got into trouble, whether through gambling or Or NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and other difficulties, to survive so the banks do not sell Community Services) their homes and declare them bankrupt. The Community Support Fund has refused to consider The SPEAKER - I am of the opinion that both funding a program to be run by a worthwhile, the second and third readings of this bill will have to statewide organisation. be carried by an absolute majority of all members of the house. As I have said on other occasions in the house, the money the govemment collects from gaming Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - Although the machines in the westem suburbs finishes up in the opposition will not be opposing the legislation it will eastem suburbs. People in the westem suburbs are raise some concems and move an amendment to a subsidising the arts and the elite in the eastem clause. Many in the community are unaware of the suburbs. I ask the minister for an assurance that an profession of podiatry. I was certainly unaware of it equal portion of the Community Support Fund will until I took on my role as shadow minister. When I be spent in the electorate of Keilor based on the commenced my regular visits to community health number of machines operating there and in centres, podiatry was one of the first matters raised surrounding districts. with me. When visiting community health centres I have observed that it is one of the most important Mr Hamilton - What about Morwell? aspects of their service. The service is provided not just in community health centres but throughout the Mr SEITZ - I will not stretch that far! That is a broader community, mostly to its older members. country area. The bill needs further consideration. PODIATRISTS REGISTRATION BILL

972 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997

Nevertheless, it is a service that many of us will to be podiatrists and undertaking foot care - and require and gain great benefit from in our lifetimes. accordingly putting the public at risk. The government has argued that the clause is sufficient Essentially, podiatry deals with the prevention, and that if there is any breach by people holding diagnosis and treatment of medical and surgical themselves out to be podiatrists the police can conditions of the feet and lower limbs. Podiatrists prosecute. But if there were any doubt about the treat a wide range of conditions including arthritis, issue, you would think the sensible thing to do various soft-tissue injuries, ingrown toenails and a would be to maintain the current regulatory regime, whole range of conditions that can cause a great deal under which the board has control over people who of pain and discomfort for those concerned. For that purport to be podiatrists. reason it is important that podiatrists are recognised for the assistance they provide not only in the Although the government has produced treatment of those conditions but in their prevention, amendments, it would have been sensible to have thus enabling people to live full and satisfying lives. adopted the suggestions of the Australian Podiatry Association and prohibited people from carrying on I have been impressed by the work carried out by a business as podiatrists unless they were registered. number of podiatrists in community health centres. There could be no objection to that, and it would not Recently I visited Beechworth, which has a major breach the competitive neutrality prOvisions. The podiatry centre servicing people from all over the government may say that amounts to excessive region. Throughout Victoria, podiatrists provide caution, but whenever you are dealing with public their services in a way that adds to the wellbeing of health, surely it is reasonable to proceed with people in the community. To become a podiatrist a caution. For that reason the opposition proposes to person needs to hold a bachelor's degree and be move an amendment to the clause. Pursuant to registered with the state Podiatrists Registration sessional orders I advise the house of a proposed Board. This legislation establishes a regime for the opposition amendment to clause 58 of the bill and registration of podiatrists. It follows the principles request that it be circulated. applied in a number of bills that have come before this house relating to occupational regulation in the Opposition amendment circulated by health professions. Although the opposition has, in Mr rnwAITES (Albert Park) pursuant to sessional general, supported the thrust of those pieces of orders. legislation, it has been concerned about certain aspects. Mr rnwAITES - The amendment simply implements the suggestion of the Australian The nub of the opposition's concerns relates to the Podiatry Association that the public be protected protection of the public and the ability of people to against unregistered people carrying on business as practise as podiatrists without being fully qualified. podiatrists. Although the legislation contains provisions relating to the functions of registered podiatrists, it does not Other states have a similar principle in their require podiatrists to be registered under the act and legislation. The Australian Capital Territory it does not prohibit persons from practising as Podiatry Registration Act contains that specific podiatrists without being registered. regulation. It prohibits a person who is not a registered podiatrist from providing a podiatry During its briefing the opposition was told by service for a fee or reward. That is exactly what this departmental officers that the public should be opposition proposes. There are other ways that protected against persons holding themselves out to could be achieved, but we believe anyone who be registered podiatrists but that there is no need to carries on a business prOviding podiatry services protect the public from persons simply holding should have the qualifications to enable him or her themselves out to be podiatrists. Our concern is that to be registered. that could lead to unqualified and unregistered persons purporting to be podiatrists when they are Our real concern is that there could be ways in not. which people could get around the act - for example, by setting themselves up as podiatrists and Clause 58 prohibits people claiming to be qualified prOviding the sorts of services that podiatrists from practising as podiatrists. But in the provide while avoiding the provisions of the act by opposition's view that is not sufficient to protect the not claiming to be qualified. public and to prohibit those people from purporting PODIATRISTS REGISTRA nON BILL

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The act makes it an offence for an unqualified In a third case a person who had science person to purport to be a qualified podiatrist. But qualifications but was not a podiatrist supplied that is a criminal provision, and it would involve the preformed flexible innersoles that were prosecution proving beyond reasonable doubt that a inappropriate in design and potentially deleterious person intended to deceive the public by claiming to to clients. As a result, people who used those be qualified to practise as a podiatrist. Having been innersoles suffered health risks. In one case a client a lawyer myself, I can say that a lawyer would have developed a stress fracture resulting directly from an an absolute field day with that clause. Any police inappropriate form of orthotics. Those are practical officer who sought to prosecute such a matter would cases; they are not theoretical. The opposition is be met by questions such as, 'What degrees did the concerned about protecting the public. If a person person claim to have?', and, 'What other who purports to be a podiatrist carries on a business, qualifications did the person claim to have?'. If the even if the person does not claim to be qualified, prosecution were not able to answer questions such public health is at risk and for that reason the as those, the matter would fail and the person would opposition says the government should seriously be able to go on practising as a podiatrist. consider the foreshadowed amendment. If it is not agreed to here it should be agreed to in another Under the system that operates in the Australian place. Capital Territory, which the opposition proposes should operate in Victoria, that would not be a This is not a front-page issue or an issue of great problem. The registration board could determine political moment, but severe distress and concern whether, on the balance of probabilities, the person are likely to occur if people are injured by was carrying on business as a podiatrist without unqualified podiatrists. If the government were being properly qualified. That is the fundamental doing its job properly this would be a no. 1 priority. point the government's minor amendments should Unfortunately, that does not appear to be the case. address but do not. One might ask, 'What does it matter if a person carries on business as a podiatrist It is important to put on record that the opposition without being fully qualified?'. Podiatrists treat the supports the work done by podiatrists. I have a human body, and whenever treatment such as that National Health Labour Force Bulletin which says there is carried out it is important that the protection of are approximately 1659 employed and registered the public is the absolute priority. podiatrists in Australia. A number of them are looking for work. I know from my visits to I have been told about cases of people purporting to community health centres throughout Victoria that carry out podiatry services not having the skills to there is a major demand for podiatrists. I am do so, which has led to real health problems for the concerned that compulsory fees are being charged people involved. For example, I was told about a for community health services including podiatry. 40-year-old woman with a history of diabetes and peripheral vascular disease who saw an unqualified In the past community health centres have been able podiatric care worker. Her problem was to determine whether fees are appropriate in their mismanaged, which resulted in an infected ingrown local communities. In some centres it has been toenail requiring extended treatment by a qualified agreed that their services should be provided free of podiatrist. Another case involved an 80-year-old charge and others have agreed that they should not. woman whose mobility was restricted and who was However, now every community health centre in under the care of a proper podiatrist at a church Victoria must charge for podiatry. That means many nursing service. She subsequently received podiatric people who need these services may miss out care from a home help staffer, which involved because they cannot afford them. A minimum general toenail cutting. charge is paid by pensioners and those on low incomes, but those who are classified as not being on Explicit instructions were given that the toenail of a low incomes must pay on a cost-recovery basis. specific toe not be cut because the nail was Previously older people may have been able to involuted. However, the home help cut all the receive podiatry services at a nominal fee, but now patient's toenails including the suspect toenail in an they may be charged $40 or $50 for the service. In attempt to manage the patient herself. Consequently those cases prospective clients may decide that they the patient developed a severe infection, which cannot afford the service. If people do not receive the required podiatry and medical intervention. That care they need they may develop foot problems or was another example of mismanagement caused by later problems may be exacerbated and require an unqualified podiatrist. much more expensive treatment, entailing surgery PODIATRISTS REGISTRATION BILL

974 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 or medical treatment. That is not in our interests. We Essentially, the problem in that case was whether the ought to be preventing problems at an early stage. If supplementary foot-care providers were able to podiatrists are forced to charge fees the prevention properly recognise serious underlying conditions. It of foot problems will be undermined as well as the seems unlikely that an unqualified person who ability to reduce problems before they get out of undertakes a one-week course will be able to hand. The government should take into account the recognise serious underlying conditions that ought effect of compulsory fees on those who need foot to attract the attention of a podiatrist. care around the state. The more you force people to pay the more you move away from the fundamental That brings me back to the fundamental thrust of the principle that all should have access to basic health opposition's view that the public should be care regardless of income. protected against unqualified and unskilled health practitioners. I am sure all pedicurists and I am also concerned about the distribution of supplementary foot-care workers have the best podiatrists. This matter was once raised by the intentions, but a short one or two or three-week honourable member for Bentleigh. She commented course will not give them the abilities that fully on the need for podiatry services at the qualified podiatrists have after completing their East Bentleigh Community Health Centre, where bachelors degrees and being properly registered. there is a long waiting list. Around the state there are pockets where demands for podiatry services are In conclusion, the opposition strongly supports the not being met. Those problems are often related to work podiatrists do in the community. They will the ageing population, which has caused an increase find it more difficult to operate in an environment in in the demand for podiatry services. which fees are charged for the services provided at community health centres. The fundamental The former Minister for Health, now the Minister for criterion that ought to govern legislation such as this Conservation and Land Management, in her is the protection of the public. We do not believe the response at the time seemed to get into a bit of a bill will do that because it will allow people to carry muddle on the difference between podiatrists and on business as podiatrists without being properly pedicurists. My understanding is that pedicurists controlled by the registration board. The carry out beauty treatment on feet and are not amendment is simple. It could be easily accepted required to be registered. However, as a result of the and would provide a greater measure of public former minister's remarks podiatrists were protection. concerned that their profession was being equated with an occupation requiring fewer qualifications. I Finally, I again ask: why leave the supervision of the hope the current minister has been brought up to legislation up to the police or other enforcement date by his parliamentary secretary. bodies who have to prove each case beyond reasonable doubt when we could easily adopt the Subsequent to the confusion a project was set up by system that operates in other states? the Department of Human Services to train supplementary foot-care providers. The Australian Mrs SHARDEY (Caulfield) - I support the Podiatry Association cooperated with the process. Podiatrists Registration Bill, which modernises yet To meet the demand for podiatry services another piece of legislation affecting the health-care podiatrists were prepared to develop a model under professions. The bill is modelled on amendments to which less specialised work could be undertaken by the legislation governing medical practitioners, supplementary foot-care providers under the nurses, optometrists, chiropractors and osteopaths, supervision of podiatrists or people could undertake and is in line with the national agreement on training to provide supplementary foot care. competition policy. The Chiropodists Act has been Although the association was concerned that reviewed and reformed to appropriately remove subsequently it appeared to be shut out of the restrictions on competition. process, it went to considerable trouble to assist in the process and to provide expertise. A one-week It is worth looking briefly at competition policy, course was developed by the Western Institute of because although we talk about it a lot we tend to TAPE. I know the association had some concerns forget its genesis. The competition reforms are the about the way the course was developed and the direct result of an agreement reached on lack of consultation. 11 April 1995 between the premiers, the then Labor Prime Minister and the chief ministers to implement the proposals of Professor Hilmer and his National PODIATRISTS REGISTRA TION BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 975

Competition Review Committee. Under the national education. The board will investigate complaints competition policy all the jurisdictions agreed to against practitioners and impose sanctions. cooperate to ensure that uniform rules applied to all the market participants regardless of their forms of On top of that, there will be no limit to the number ownership. In other words, the implementation of of people who can actually train as podiatrists. the policy was supposed to lead to a level playing Although the legislation continues to restrict field. competition as it affects the strict meaning of the title 'podiatrist', it provides for significant deregulation The element that particularly applies to the review in a number of areas. For instance, it removes the of legislation was mentioned in the Premier's provision that reserves the practice of registered second-reading speech on the Competition Policy podiatry, so it talks about the title 'podiatry', not the Reform Bill: practice of podiatry.

Review of the legislation that restricts competition The requirements in the act that restrict the provision of proclaimed treatment to registered The Hilrner report found that legislative and regulatory podiatrists have been removed. Restrictions on restrictions were among the most pervasive fonus of advertising have also been removed because they competition in the Australian economy. These are considered excessive. The bill allows for the restrictions arise from legislative or regulatory provision of foot-care services by other occupations arrangements such as the licensing of particular in competition with registered podiatrists. As we operations. All governments have agreed to review know, they include orthotists, orthopaedic surgeons, existing legislation that restricts competition by pedicurists, foot-care technicians, general December 2000. Thereafter legislation will be reviewed practitioners and physiotherapists. every 10 years. In my electorate of Caulfield the Diabetes Institute Importantly, it says: brings a focus to people who suffer from diabetes. The Caulfield General Medical Centre provides a The guiding principle is that the legislation, including fine podiatry service free of charge for local people regulations, should not restrict competition unless it who suffer from diabetes. One important element in can be demonstrated that the benefits to the community the treatment of diabetics is ensuring that their feet outweigh the costs and that the objectives of the and legs are properly cared for because, as we know, legislation can be achieved only by restricting they are prone to ulcerations that can lead to competition. gangrene and amputation.

The main focus of the bill is to protect the public The big winners are the consumers - for example, interest through strengthened complaint and inquiry consumers such as diabetics are protected. I am sure mechanisms in relation to standards and that diabetics are advised by their medical professional conduct. If one examines the bill, one practitioners that they should consult properly sees that more than a third of its provisions relate to registered podiatrists. People suffering from those controlling the professional conduct of podiatrists. diseases will receive treatment from properly The process of reviewing the health occupations qualified and registered podiatrists. Victorians can requires the application of certain principles to be assured they will receive the appropriate assess the need for statutory regulation. In the case treatment and know they will not be put at risk. of podiatry it was found that in the interests of public safety podiatrists should continue to be I have pleasure in supporting the bill. It is consistent regulated under a statutory system. That is why the with the direction the government is taking in its bill continues to use and regulate the title of competition policy and provides for the protection 'podiatrist'. That is most important and should not of the public. I wish the bill a speedy passage. be put aside. Mr DOYLE (Malvern) - I am pleased to jOin The system of registration provides for the proper with the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and the security of those patients who require treatment and honourable member for Caulfield in proposing a care from registered podiatrists. The board will speedy passage for the Podiatrists Registration Bill. enforce standards of practice, which means that to As both honourable members have said, it is one call yourself a podiatrist you will have to gain more in the series of health occupation registration certain levels of accomplishment, training and bills which began with medical practice, ran through PODIATRISTS REGISTRATION BILL

976 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 nurses, osteopaths, optometrists and chiropractors, The bill will protect the public by providing for the and now we examine the important profession of registration of podiatrists, to investigate their podiatry. professional conduct and fitness to practise; to establish the Podiatrists Registration Board; to I will not again traverse the details referred to by the regulate the conduct of podiatrists; and to regulate honourable member for Caulfield and the Deputy the advertising of podiatric and podiatrist services. Leader of the Opposition. The bill meets the requirement of national competition policies and The term 'podiatrist' is taken to include also the requirements under mutual recognition, particularly older term'chiropodist'. On that issue I will discuss under the trans-Tasman agreements. particularly the amendment proposed by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition because I believe I shall address some of the concerns raised by the we can have a meeting of minds on the protection Deputy Leader of the OppOSition because I believe required by taking into account such older titles. we can move forward on this bill in a bipartisan manner and deal with government and opposition Government amendment no. 1 proposes that we amendments, at least in general, as proposed to be insert the old title'chiropodist' after line 6 of clause moved in the committee stage by the minister and 58. The explanatory memorandum makes clear that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. the terms 'chiropodist' and 'podiatrist' mean the same thing. The qualification is a tertiary course: the The Podiatrists Registration Board is there to protect old qualification was a diploma of chiropody; now a the public. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition graduate must complete a Bachelor of Applied made the point cogently about the balance between Science in podiatry. The new term is podiatry, but the board and the roles of bodies such as the Victoria we should recognise the fact that the term Police Force. 'chiropody' is in wide circulation.

The honourable member for Caulfield and the I move now to the valid concerns of the Deputy Deputy Leader of the Opposition also referred to the Leader of the Opposition, to which the government definition of podiatry; the Deputy Leader of the has given serious consideration. He mentioned in Opposition asked why a definition is not contained particular clause 58 headed 'Claims by persons as to in the bill and why the government does not restrict registration', and asked whether in this offences the practice of podiatry. I will return to that issue provision people would be protected against those and deal with why we have decided on the national who, for instance, call themselves podiatrists versus competition policy of protecting title rather than those who call themselves registered podiatrists. The restricting practice. One may do both in certain Deputy Leader of the Opposition said, 'What if they circumstances. Our model looks at a restriction of use some other term, like 'podiatrist'?'. Later he said title. In that way, the legislation protects the public. that these things need to be carefully and seriously weighed and analysed. The government has done I agree with the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that. The entirety of his concerns are wrapped up in and the honourable member for Caulfield that the second part of clause 58. Clause 58(1) states: podiatry is undervalued in the community. Both honourable members mentioned the affliction of A person who is not a registered podiatrist must not­ diabetes and the important role podiatrists play in (a) take or use the title of registered podiatrist or the treatment of that disease. The federal health registered or any other title calculated to induce a minister has talked about how, with the timely belief that the person is registered under this Act. treatment by podiatrists, we need not reach the stage of amputation of diabetics' limbs: because of the We considered a number of directions, and the primary treatment of diabetes by podiatrists. Both amendment to be moved by the government was honourable members charted that course well and prepared after consultation with the profession after celebrated the work of podiatrists. I echo their the bill was made available to its members. The comments. government will accede to the profession's concern about the term 'chiropodist'. We could try to list all The bill will register podiatrists and set up their the titles that charlatans may wish to take, which board. The proposed legislation will incorporate the would lead us down an ever-decreasing spiral. If we board. It will follow the standard model and have 7 think about the number of titles people can adopt to members, 1 of whom will be a lawyer, 2 lay persons, present themselves to the public as registered and 4 from the profession of podiatry. podiatrists, even with our most fertile imaginations PODIATRISTS REGISTRA nON BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 977 we could not capture them all. Therefore, if we Secondly, the point made by the Deputy Leader of cannot have a definitive and exhaustive list of all the the Opposition was important and concerned a more appropriate titles, we try to have a general catch-all. general role for the board. Is it the board of The bill has done that. podiatrists that should be pursuing people who are not registered podiatrists? That is a difficult question I hope I am not out of step with the Department of to which the government gave considerable and Human Services, as the Deputy Leader of the serious consideration. Opposition says the department gave him certain advice, but if people held themselves out to be We would agree that people who are not registered podiatrists without the word 'registered' before it, podiatrists should not be practising podiatry. That is they would be caught by the second part of clause certainly the intention of the bill. The question that 58. If you call yourself a podiatrist, I assert you are remains between the government and the opposition holding yourself out by a title calculated to induce a is as follows: if someone is a charlatan and is belief that you are registered under the legislation. working on members of the public at the risk of the public, who is the appropriate person to pursue that I will later discuss what the 'registered' part means charlatan? The Deputy Leader of the Opposition because it is part of the belief that the opposition and suggests in his amendment that in that instance the government share about the fluidity of the health there is a primary prosecution role for the Podiatrists professions and how, where once there perhaps Registration Board of Victoria. The government does could have been static definitions of individual and not agree with that, with one qualification that may auxiliary health occupations, that is no longer help the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. It is a appropriate. There may well be, according to proper matter for the police to pursue. If somebody qualification, a flowing up and down throughout the is harming members of the public through what is professions in the competencies of what people can essentially a surgical procedure, he or she is do so long as the public is protected. committing a serious crime that should be pursued by the police under the Crimes Act rather than the Clause 58(1)(a) catches all the concerns that the offender being given a small fine for not being a Deputy Leader of the Opposition lists in his registered podiatrist. That seems to me to be the far proposed amendment. I will return to that lesser of the two evils. amendment because his definition contains other problems. I agree that he has listed a simple and, in The Deputy Leader raised a good point, however. many ways, elegant way around his concern. How are such fraudulent practitioners to be However, his concern is covered by the second part identified? That is where I see the professional board of clause 58(1)(a), but I raise a further difficulty playing a primary role. There is no doubt that those which his amendment suggests but which has not people will be brought to our attention by the yet been considered. individual ethical practitioners of podiatry in the field. They will of necessity bring that concern to the I presume the lack of any opposition to the general board. thrust of the bill means it will not be necessary for detailed discussion to occur in the committee stage, In my discussions with the registrar of the board he if I may be forgiven for so presuming. The assured me that that is exactly the case. That is what government amendment inserts 'chiropodist' for happens now. If a charlatan is doing some damage, two reasons. Firstly, it is a title which the individual practitioners bring that to the attention of government regards as being interchangeable with the board and the board goes to the police. I am 'podiatrist' and although 'podiatrist' is the modem confident in saying the board is comfortable with term, there may well be practitioners whose that. The matter should certainly be pursued, but the qualifications were gained earlier and who prefer question is by whom. After much serious 'chiropodist'. They want something in the bill which consideration, the government's answer is not the makes it clear that those two titles are board but the police. interchangeable. The government amendment is a half-move towards what the Deputy Leader of the The honourable member for Albert Park raised a Opposition has said but that does not detract from number of good anecdotal concerns which need to the general thrust about protection of the public by be addressed. Such concerns have exercised our the second part of clause 58(1)(a). minds. A restriction of practice can be included in an act, but that will not guarantee that people will not breach that restriction anyway. Members may be PODIATRISTS REGISTRATION BILL

978 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 aware that recently a woman who was holding other title'. His amendment is problematic, given the herself out to be a dentist was prosecuted. She was definition of what a podiatry service might be. That doing some serious dental work, including was also of concern recently in dealing with medical extractions, and had no qualifications whatsoever. and veterinary practice legislation and a number of Members of the public were at risk, and quite other bills. properly she was pursued and prosecuted by the police and convicted of a serious offence. It is I have consulted with the Australian Podiatry interesting that there is already a restriction of Association and the board and put that point to practice in the Dentists Act. That did not protect the them. While they still have some reservations - I public. Already the Dental Board of Victoria has the think they would have preferred to see us restrict power to pursue people, but in that case it was not practice - I also think they understand our point of the board that brought the primary action against view and why the definition they proposed was that person; it was the police. The dental board was inappropriate and would now perhaps resile from it. involved and the act was helpful, but in the end the While I am not so bold as to claim a 100 per cent more serious offence was pursued. commitment ensuing from the APA and the board, they would understand the position we have taken Even though there may be protection through a in clause 58(1)(a) and would agree with what we are restriction of practice, that is no guarantee to the doing. public in the end that protection must follow. I assure the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that the I will make a final and particularly important point government has thought long and hard about regarding qualifications. The Deputy Leader of the whether protection of title is the way to go. Opposition made the same point in referring to his previous exalted profession of barrister. His words I turn to the amendment of the Deputy Leader of the were that any lawyer would have a field day with Opposition. It has a good deal of sense but a couple the definition. That is exactly the difficulty I of problems as well. The amendment reads: mentioned earlier. If the government were highly specific in trying to set out all the titles, the lawyers Clause 58, line 16, after this line insert- would have a field day in describing new titles as "; or not being caught by the bill. If specific provisions for certain titles were made the lawyers would argue (e) provide a podiatry service for fee or reward." that the intent of the Parliament was to list only The difficulty is that nowhere in the bill is it defined those it wished to prohibit and any other title would what a podiatry service is, and that is appropriate. I be perfectly all right. I argue that what the Deputy will come back to the point of qualifications in a Leader of the Opposition suggests would be the field moment. As a podiatry service is not defined, it day for lawyers and would change the boundaries would be difficult, even under his amendment, to considerably. Again the government has decided not pursue people because the argument would be not to go down that track and to keep the description whether a person had done harm to the public but generic, saying a person cannot induce a belief in the whether the person was performing a podiatry public that the person is registered under this bill. service. What does 'registered under this bill' mean? It I mentioned that I would come back to the idea of means the board considers a person to have done an qualifications and the fluidity of health professions. undergraduate course that qualifies that person in That is the way the government has chosen to all the competencies of podiatry. It is a circular proceed. The answer to who is a registered definition but one that is effective in protecting the podiatrist is surely whoever has completed an public. It gives the board considerable power in not approved qualification in podiatry that is recognised only regulating its profession but also determining by the board. That will change from time to time, as and advising the police and the government who is is the case in all auxiliary health professions. As outside that profession. I hope that explains why the undergraduate courses change, so do the government believes the amendment is not requirements for registration by the board. necessary and that the proper public protections exist. The fundamental point of the Deputy Leader I applaud what the Deputy Leader of the Opposition of the Opposition concerned that point. is suggesting for the protection of the public, but the bill already does that through the second half of the I reiterate my point that that does not in any way definition in clause 58(1)(a) which reads, 'or any obviate the necessity for the profession to be PODIATRISTS REGISTRATION BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 979 vigilant. The professionals are always the ones who fundamental point is addressed by the legislation. bring to our attention people who are charlatans The restriction of practice as pointed out by the practising outside the definitions of podiatry. The honourable member's amendment does not obviate board has a role in advising and helping the police harm to the public. determine whether people are practising as podiatrists without the appropriate qualifications. I I assure the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that also assure the Deputy Leader that we will be the government considered seriously and at great encouraging the police to pursue those people with length whether it was doing the right thing. I hope I all the vigour available to them. have made the point that the government feels the amendment is not necessary and that the restriction I also make a point regarding the unqualified dentist of title will provide all the necessary protection. As who recently received attention in the media. There always with these boards, I have charged the present is a difference between informed public choice - board with the responsibility of monitoring exactly that is, determining to which practitioner one would that position. If the board comes back to the go - and complete protection of the public. You government with empirical evidence after a period cannot say to the public by virtue of a piece of of operation showing there is a difficulty I will black-letter law from this place, 'We guarantee, by certainly look at an amendment such as the one the restricting practice and title, that you will never have Deputy Leader of the Opposition has proposed. to face charlatans in the public arena who may do However, I will be clear that we will need empirical you damage'. You can never do that. Having evidence about how that practice could be prevented admitted that that is the reality of the situation, all by such an amendment. we can do is inform the public about registration and what it means, protect the title and empower the The Deputy Leader of the Opposition made a point board and police to pursue such people. about fees and community health centres. I echo his valuing of the work done normally by podiatry The Deputy Leader of the Opposition mentioned services but also by many others in community some examples of mismanaging particular patients. health centres. A co-payments and fees regime has He gave one example of a person who was given been put in place. Those fees are required to raise flexible orthotics and then developed stress fractures only 4 per cent of the total income of a centre, which of the foot. My wife and son wear inflexible is a very modest target that most are meeting. There orthotics - and at great cost, I advise the is one overriding consideration, and it was honourable member - and I find the situation mentioned by the honourable member for Caulfield: described most regrettable. However, I am not sure if you are in need of treatment and you cannot how his amendment would have protected that afford it the government's policy says that you will person. That person could still have sought not go without it. Community health centres have treatment from someone who was not qualified, had the power for all services, including podiatry, to the same things prescribed, paid exactly the same waive the fees if a service is needed by a member of amount and still would not have been protected. I the community but it is determined that they are believe the person involved should be prosecuted - unable to afford the fee or the co-payment. On the let us not be unsure about that - but I do not think other hand, it is entirely appropriate that our the honourable member's amendment would have community health centres are not second-rate but protected the person he described. It is part of the first-rate deliverers of primary health care. It is fluidity of professions. It is why the bill does not entirely reasonable that if someone can afford to pay define things precisely. The undergraduate course for podiatry services and they receive first-rate will change and as it changes we do not want to service that they should pay, just as they would pay have to present a bill to Parliament each time to if they went to any other health practitioner because redefine for each health profession what it is that they believe they are getting the best health service defines podiatry, osteopathy, chiropractic, available to them. The mere fact that the venue is a physiotherapy or psychiatry. It is far better to community health centre should not preclude the describe the practice as being qualified and to have a fact that fees are charged. I agree with the Deputy qualification recognised by the board. That is what Leader of the OppOSition, so long as we do not makes you a chiropractor, a chiropodist or anything exclude people who are unable to pay, and I am else: you do the approved course and you are confident that that is not the case. registered by the board. If you are outside that regime and you practice and do harm to a person The honourable member's final point about the you are pursued with the full vigour of the law. That cumulative effect of co-payments and what happens PODIATRISTS REGISTRATION BILL

980 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 when people struggling on low incomes have to face make sure the public is protected, there may be a range of co-payments for services was well made. I some differences in approach in achieving that end. I am very much aware of community health centres, comment on the last issue raised by the honourable and in particular co-payments in the area of dental member for Malvern about podiatrists in and podiatry services. I inform the Deputy Leader of community health centres. He mentioned that only the Opposition it is not the intention of the 4 per cent of the total income of community health government by that scheme to exclude people in centres comes from podiatry services. need and who need to be taken care of by the health system. He mayor may not be aware that the Mr Doyle - From the co-payments. government has recently let a tender to examine the effect of co-payments on those most vulnerable in Mr MICALLEF - From the co-payment process, our society. That is not some window-dressing yes. We now have that clear. That is fine, except exercise; the government intends to look seriously at where the podiatry is part of the core services the introduction of co-payments for a number of provided. In some community health centres services. It believes co-payments are appropriate, podiatry is outside that range of core services. The and the professiOns themselves support the community health centre I am involved with had to government in that view. The government is most make its own podiatry arrangements. Podiatry was concerned to ensure that the people most vulnerable seen as an absolute need in that case because there are not excluded from services because they cannot was no core funding to provide those services. The afford a co-payment or a cumulation of centre provides a range of podiatry services to co-payments. I again assure the Deputy Leader of people on low incomes at between $15 and $20 a the Opposition that the government is looking at visit. I do not think the service is as good as that monitoring that situation. made out by the honourable member for Malvern. It may be okay on paper but the reality is that it does I do not for a moment minimise the goodwill with not always work out that way. Other agencies and which the Deputy Leader of the Opposition groups such as neighbourhood houses in and proposed his amendment. I hope during the course around Melbourne have also provided podiatry of my speech I have answered the thrust of the services on the basis of a fee for service with a slight government's intent. I believe it encapsulates exactly subsidy. However, many people are not getting to what the Deputy Leader of the Opposition was those core services, and that is important. That is not hoping to do through his amendment. I also believe the focus of the bill. When the government conducts the profession, along with the many people who its inquiry into the effect of co-payments those issues have written to me during my period of will come through and will be put aside for further consultation, welcome the provisions that we in this debate. Many of the things the honourable member place almost take for granted because we have dealt for Malvern said about spelling out the variety of with so many health occupation registration bills. services provided and what the various modalities We have moved them onto a footing where there is call themselves were raised in the medical inquiry an appropriately streamlined appeals process; we some years ago. have given them a board made up of what we believe is the best mix of skills possible to regulate The way the matter was raised by the honourable and to register the profession. These things have member for Malvern is precisely how it was been welcomed by the association and by the presented in the report. A body of opinion would present board. I believe the profesSion as a whole is agree with that, but I understand what the shadow very satisfied not only with the bill but also with the minister is saying. If you are a registered podiatrist two amendments the government has introduced does that make you qualified? The honourable today. They give effect to some of the concerns that member for Malvern and the government are saying were raised about the draft bill. I wish the bill a that you will not be registered unless you are speedy passage; its thrust and effect have support qualified. An assessment has to be made about from both sides of the house and it will move the whether the registration covers all contingencies. As profession forward. has recently been pointed out in dentistry, and many other professions, there are always charlatans. Mr MICALLEF (Springvale) - The debate has During the inquiry into alternative medicine some been constructive. I have listened to most of the years ago the Social Development Committee contributions by the shadow Minister for Health and uncovered some strange procedures. The the honourable members for Malvern and Caulfield; Serjeant-at-Arms was very much part of that they were all valuable. Although we all want to inquiry. Qualified doctors were engaged in what PODIATRISTS REGISTRA nON BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 981 members of the committee thought was quackery the public by providing for the registration of and orthomolecular doctors were prescribing a podiatrists and for investigations into the range of vitamins. The CSIRO in Adelaide presented professional conduct and fitness to practise of evidence that that sort of approach was not registered podiatrists. scientifically based and therefore in some cases potentially harmful. I place on record the general support of all members for the valuable role the profession of podiatry plays Just because professionals are qualified or registered in maintaining the health of Victorians. As the does not guarantee that their conduct in every case Deputy Leader of the Opposition pointed out, those will be appropriate, proper and in the best interests services are most often provided to older people, of the patient. It is the responsibility of a registration although those in the podiatry profession would no board to determine whether the qualifications of an doubt point out that if people sought early applicant fit the requirements. Out in the field intervention and prevention of problems from competing professional groups offer qualifications podiatrists they would experience fewer problems in and competencies that are not always parallel. their advancing years. Therefore it is important that a registration board is able to develop a system of assessment of The Deputy Leader of the Opposition proposed an qualifications across the board to detect fly-by-night amendment to clause 58. As the honourable member groups that try to come in after having done for Malvern addressed the matter in detail I will not correspondence courses. The board will have to repeat the position other than to say that the assess those qualifications. It will have to determine government, while understanding the intent of the the basic qualifications that underpin the right for a amendment, believes it is unnecessary. Clause 58 is profeSSional to be registered. more than adequate to provide protection to the public and to ensure that registered podiatrists are I was pleased to hear the honourable member for able to practise their profession without fear of Malvern say that the registration board will advise unregistered podiatrists, unfit to practise, being able the police when it believes a registered person is not to conduct a 'practice' without retribution. The working within the guidelines and intent of the government believes the retribution should be firm registration provisions. It will also determine and strong against people who purport to practise as whether that person is appropriately qualified and podiatrists and are not qualified or competent to do using those qualifications appropriately. The so. Clause 58 makes it clear that a person who is not government must provide support and backup for a registered podiatrist cannot use the title and the registration board and ensure that it has the cannot claim to be registered under the act. resources to police the situation effectively. I direct the attention of the Deputy Leader of the I understand the shadow minister's concerns about Opposition to clause 58(I)(c), which says that a qualifications. In many cases those working in the person who is not a registered podiatrist cannot: podiatry field are working with the elderly and people who are vulnerable or at the lower carry out any act which is required to be carried out by socioeconomic end of the economic spectrum and a registered podiatrist. unable assess the qualifications of podiatrists. Community health centres would be able to assist in Such a person cannot even carry out any action that those situations. I raise those issues for consideration should be carried out or is required to be carried out by the government. I have found the debate by registered podiatrists without breaching this informative and constructive. I hope some common legislation. Similarly in clause 58(2): ground will be found in the final analysis. A registered podiatrist whose registration is specific Dr NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and mustnot- Community Services) - I thank the Deputy Leader (a) take or use any title calculated to induce a belief that of the Opposition and the honourable members for the podiatrist's registration is not specific; or Springvale, Caulfield and Malvern for their contributions. As the honourable member for (b) claim to have or hold himself or herself out as Springvale said, it has been a valuable debate, having general registration. demonstrating how Parliament can work effectively Clause 58 makes it clear that the public will be in introducing legislation. I acknowledge the broad protected. A similar approach is taken in a whole support for the bill and its intent, which is to protect range of other health professions. In the medical, PODIATRISTS REGISTRATION BILL

982 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 chiropractic and osteopathy professions and, indeed, (e) provide a podiatry service for fee or my own profession of veterinary science that reward." approach is taken and has proved to be effective The purpose of the amendment, which I made clear over time. I suggest there is no necessity for the during my contribution to the second-reading amendment and the government will oppose it. debate, is to protect the public. In his contribution the honourable member for Malvern indicated that The bill achieves its objectives of providing the public was protected by virtue of paragraph (a) protection for the public and ensuring that of clause 58, and the Minister for Community podiatrists' registration is brought up to the Services advised that the public was protected under requirements for 1997 and into the 21st century. It paragraphs (a) and (c). The honourable member for meets the requirements of mutual recognition, the Malvern also indicated that the department had national competition policy and provides an received advice on the matter. I firmly request that excellent framework for the further development of the department obtain further legal advice on this this very important profession. point. The SPEAKER - Order! I am of the opinion that Paragraph (c) provides that a person who is not a the bill must be passed by an absolute majority. As there are fewer than 45 members present, I ask the re~ste:ed p~atrist must not carry out any act whi~ ~ reqUIred to be carried out by a registered Clerk to ring the bells. podiatrist. That does not provide the protection that IS needed, because the act does not specify that all Bells rung. po~any services ~ust be carried out by a registered podiatrist. Accordingly, someone not registered Members having assembled in chamber: could provide those services as there is nothing in the act that requires that that person be registered. The SPEAKER - Order! The question is that this Paragraph (c) is of no benefit whatsoever. bill be now read a second time. As there are no voices for the noes and more than 45 members Paragraph (a) provides in part that a person who is present, I declare the second reading of the bill not a registered podiatrist must not induce a belief carried by an absolute majority of the members of the Legislative Assembly. that that.person is registered under the act. My concern IS not about a person inducing a belief that he or she is registered but simply that a person can Motion agreed to by absolute majority. carry on services as a podiatrist. That is the key, and that is not protected by paragraph (a). order for a Read second time. In police prosecution to succeed in relation to paragraph (a), it would be necessary to prove Committed. beyond reasonable doubt that the person intended to Committee induce a belief that he or she was registered. That would require a statement, presumably on a business card or in an advertisement, that the person Clauses 1 to 57 agreed to. held registration. It would not be enough that the person simply carried on business as a podiatrist Clause 58 because there is no general provision in the Or NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and legislation requiring that all persons carrying on business as podiatrists must be registered. Community Services) - I move: 1. Clause 58, line 6, after "registered" insert I urge the government to obtain further legal advice. "chiropodist". It may be a loophole that could be used by lawyers Amendment agreed to. for practitioners who are not properly qualified and regIstered and who are therefore putting public health at risk. Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - I move: Mr DOYLE (Malvern) - The government still 1. Clause 58, line 16, after this line insert - believes that this contingency is covered. That was "; or the point I was trying to make about the board and the way the board receives information. If someone out there is practising in a way which does harm to PODIATRISTS REGISTRATION BILL

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 983 the public - and that is what we are all on about; Oollis,Mr Mildenhall, Mr that no harm must be caused to the public - the Garbutt, Ms Pandazopoulos, Mr (Teller) following will happen. One of the practitioners out Gillett, Ms Thwaites, Mr there will get to know of it - that is how these cases Haermeyer, Mr Wilson,Mrs are brought to attention - and will report it to the board. The board can then say, ''This person is doing Noes, 48 things outside his or her competencies'. How does it Andrighetto, Mr McGrath, Mr W.O. know that? Because you need the qualifications of a Ashley,Mr McNamara, Mr podiatrist in order to offer those practices. Burke, Ms(Teller) Maughan,Mr Clark,Mr Napthine, Or We do not wish to define practice because that is an Coleman,Mr Paterson, Mr ever-changing thing as undergraduate courses Cooper,Mr Perrin, Mr change and bring in more competencies. But the Oavies, Ms Perton, Mr board and the practitioners are perfectly capable of Dean,Or Peulich, Mrs saying, 'Our qualification, the Bachelor of Applied Dixon,Mr Plowman, Mr A.F. Science Podiatry, means that you can do these Doyle,Mr Reynolds, Mr certain things'. If you do not have the degree and Elder,Mr Richardson, Mr you are doing the acts, then what you are doing is a Elliott, Mrs Rowe,Mr danger to public health. At the point of someone Gude,Mr Ryan,Mr causing some public harm, the board can advise the Jasper,Mr Savage,Mr police. Jenkins, Mr Shardey, Mrs John, Mr Smith, Mr E.R (Teller) The board must always be in an advisory role. It Kennett,Mr Smith, Mr 1. W. should not be the role of the board to pursue those Kilgour, Mr(Teller) Spry,Mr who are outside the act or who are not registered. Lean,Mr Steggall, Mr The board's role is to register and to regulate the Leigh,Mr Stockdale, Mr profession. Those mavericks and charlatans who Lupton,Mr Thompson, Mr may wish to do things which will cause public harm McArthur, Mr Traynor,Mr should be in the prOvince of the police, as advised by McCall,Ms Treasure, Mr the board. The circle of the board recognising McGill,Mrs Wells,Mr qualifications, determining that those qualifications give you certain competencies and pursuing those Amendment negatived. who are practising those competencies without the qualifications should be sufficient for the board to Dr NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and act on a matter and advise the police not only by Community Services) - I move: notification but also by helping them with 2. Clause 58, page 38, line 11, after this line insert - prosecution. "0 If a body corporate contravenes sub-section (1), I believe the board recognising and registering any person who is concerned in or takes part qualifications and information flowing to the board in the management of that body corporate and then to the police is sufficient. What the Deputy who was, in any way, by act or omission, Leader of the Opposition has proposed will add directly or indirectly, knowingly concerned in absolutely nothing to that process - which happens or party to the commission of the offence also now and which the board is perfectly happy with. commits an offence under sub-section (1) and is liable for the penalty applicable to a natural Committee divided on amendment: person for that offence.". Amendment agreed to; amended clause agreed to: Ayes, 23 clauses 59 to 79 agreed to; schedule agreed to. Andrianopoulos, Mr Hamilton, Mr Batchelor, Mr Hulls,Mr Reported to house with amendments. Bracks,Mr Kosky,Ms Cameron,Mr Langdon, Mr (Teller) Report adopted. CampbeU,Ms Leighton, Mr Carli,Mr Lim,Mr Third reading Cole,Mr Maddigan, Mrs (Teller) Cunningham, Mr Micallef, Mr Motion agreed to by absolute majority. PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL

984 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997

Read third time. whether a project has the requisite significance are not explained. The provision is too broad - and Remaining stages what about local significance?

Passed remaining stages. The minister's ability to intervene in a local issue to enable acquisition is to be dressed up by the PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT reference to a development being of state or regional (AMENDMENT) BILL significance. To do the minister justice, he does not need an excuse: that is already part and parcel of his Government amendments circulated by Mr GUDE existing powers. I suggest the provision is (Minister for Education) pursuant to sessional cumbersome because the powers of acquisition do orders. not vest in the secretary until the declaration is made, which in many ways slows everything down. Second reading The minister tells us he loves to cut red tape and facilitate development. What if another colleague of Debate resumed from 16 October; motion of his, in the limited life of this government, decided Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and Local that more time was required and was more reticent Government). about jumping in as quickly as the minister? I suggest that there is a certain lack of logic in the Mr DOLLIS (Richmond) - The bill purports to drafting of particular parts of the bill. transfer the powers of compulsory acquisition that are currently vested in the Urban Land Authority to I refer to proposed new section 201E. The Secretary the Secretary to the Department of Infrastructure. to the Department of Infrastructure is defined under According to the government, the transfer is section 35 of the Project Development and necessary because once the Urban Land Authority is Construction Management Act. If the definition is to corporatised, the principles of competitive neutrality changed, further consequential amendments may be dictate that the Urban Land Corporation should not needed to ensure the powers are vested have the power to compulsorily acquire land. appropriately. As was suggested to officers of the minister's department, that is not only cumbersome Consistent with its opposition to the corporatisation but also inefficient. Proposed new section 201H of the Urban Land Authority, the opposition states that: opposes the bill. Once again, the government's amendments were circulated 2 seconds before the ... the secretary may acquire land by agreement on any debate was due to resume. For the sake of efficiency tenns (including consideration) that the secretary it would help if the minister organised a briefing on considers appropriate. the amendments. This proviSion is purportedly a modification of The opposition opposes the bill because it is sections 13A and 14. However, the bill does not convoluted and vests too much power in the enable taxpayers to determine whether the secretary Secretary to the Department of Infrastructure is acquiring land for reasonable prices. Rather than without adequate mechanisms for public scrutiny. modifying it, the bill increases the discretion of the Although the minister's second-reading speech secretary and reduces any requirement for public states that the bill merely represents a transfer of scrutiny. The Urban Land Authority Act provided a power, it vests fairly wide powers in the secretary in mechanism for fiscal accountability through its a way that is complicated. The provisions are an annual report. It required the purchase price for any example of ideology overtaking commonsense. The land acquired compulsorily to be open to public government's blind belief in competitive neutrality scrutiny. Where the secretary purchases an interest has produced an unnecessary bill. in land, such purchases should be transparent to ensure accountability to the taxpayers. After all, the I refer to proposed new section 201F. The secretary may acquire land by agreement on any compulsory acquisition powers of the secretary to terms, including any consideration, that the the department are triggered by the minister's secretary considers appropriate. declaration that a proposed development is of state or regional significance. That vague definition does The bill creates an array of technical amendments little to indicate the scope of the minister's power. It which make the Victorian statutes unduly also creates a problem: the criteria for determining complicated simply because the government must ADJOURNMENT

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apply the competitive neutrality principle to the matter be further examined while the bill is everything, even if it is illogical, as in this between here and another place. There is much to example, thereby making legislation complex and commend the bill to the house. messy. House divided on motion: I have repeatedly suggested to the minister that the bill is flawed. The opposition has opposed the Ayes, 48 corporatisation of the Urban Land Authority and, Andrighetto, Mr Maclellan, Mr therefore, cannot see why these consequential Ashley,Mr McNamara, Mr amendments would be appropriate. I suggest that, Burke, Ms (Teller) Maughan,Mr while the bill is between here and the other place, Clark, Mr Napthine, Dr the minister examine closely some of the issues the Coleman,Mr Paterson, Mr opposition has raised with his department and some Cooper,Mr Perrin, Mr of the drafting errors in the bill. Dean, Dr Perton, Mr Dixon, Mr Peulich, Mrs Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and Doyie,Mr Piowman, Mr A.F. Local Government) - I am happy to give the Elder,Mr Reynolds, Mr assurance that the honourable member for Elliott, Mrs Rowe,Mr Richmond seeks, about giving careful consideration Gude,Mr Ryan,Mr to matters raised by him. As a gentle reminder to the Jasper,Mr Savage,Mr honourable member, it seems the Labor Party has Jenkins,Mr Shardey, Mrs lost its socialist verve: I would have thought this bill John,Mr Smith, Mr E.R (Teller) was just the sort of legislation that would appeal to Kennett, Mr Smith, Mr lW. the Labor Party, but I understand the reluctance of Kilgour, Mr (Teller) Spry,Mr the opposition to support legislation of this sort Lean,Mr Steggall, Mr which would enable the state to compulsorily Leigh,Mr Stockdale, Mr acquire property from capitalists. I thought the Lupton,Mr Thompson, Mr Labor Party would believe in such legislation. That McArthur, Mr Traynor,Mr shows how things change: socialists do not so much McCall, Ms Treasure, Mr lose their stripes as their spots! McGill,Mrs Wade,Mrs McGrath, Mr W.D. Wells,Mr As the honourable member for Richmond knows, the bill allows the minister and the Secretary of the Noes, 24 Department of Infrastructure to exercise certain Andrianopoulos, Mr Hulls, Mr powers which should only be used sparingly. But Batcheior, Mr Kosky,Ms the honourable member also knows that the powers Bracks, Mr Langdon, Mr (Teller) of the Urban Land Authority have repeatedly been Campbe\l,Ms Leighton, Mr used in fake circumstances to cover certain Carli, Mr (Teller) Urn,Mr situations. The casino site was assembled using the Cunningham, Mr Maddigan, Mrs (Teller) powers of the ULA; that development had nothing Davies, Ms Micalief, Mr to do with the ULA or housing, but everything to do Doilis, Mr Mildenhall, Mr with assembling the site. Also, the Labor Garbutt, Ms Pandazopoulos, Mr government's Beacon Cove project used ULA Gillett,Ms Seitz,Mr powers. Haermeyer, Mr Thwaites, Mr Hamilton, Mr WiJson,Mrs Rather than have a fake use of powers of the ULA - or the Urban Land Corporation, as it is soon to be Motion agreed to. known -let us be transparent about things. This legislation is about the transparent use of those Read second time. powers. Ordered to be committed next day. If the minister uses the powers, the minister makes the declaration; and the departmental secretary ADJOURNMENT provides the checks and balances. The bill will be an excellent opportunity to bring those matters The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - together. I am happy to support the suggestion that Order! Under sessional orders the time appointed ADJOURNMENT

986 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 for me to interrupt the business of the house has Moorabbin Airport: sale arrived. Mr LEIGH (Mordialloc) - I raise with the Mitcham Primary School Minister for Planning and Local Government the sale of Moorabbin Airport by the federal Mr MILDENHALL (Footscray) - I raise for the government. The state government has written to attention of the Minister for Education the absolute the federal government suggesting that the same neglect and appalling indifference of the leasing arrangement should be entered into in the government to the physical condition of the case of Moorabbin and Essendon airports as applied Mitcham Primary School. The Department of at Tullamarine airport. Education and the minister have allowed the Mitcham Primary School to fall into an appalling The Minister for Industry, Science and Technology physical condition. Students cannot get drinking wrote to the federal Acting Minister for Transport water out of the taps around the school. The antique and Regional Development on 30 September oil heaters - how many public buildings are now suggesting there was a significant need for a master heated by oil heaters? - require six visits per plan be put in place regarding what takes place at year-- the airport in the future. I have become increasingly alarmed at what seems to be the lack of direction of Honourable members interjecting. the federal government in respect of this arrangement. The AcrING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - Order! The house will come to order. This most The City of Kingston issued a memorandum to unseemly conduct will not be tolerated. The clock councillors, suggesting that as of 5 November the will be stopped whenever such outbursts occur. number of flights out of Moorabbin Airport was 360 000 general aviation aircraft movements and Mr MILDENHALL - The oil heaters storage 8000 light commuter aircraft movements. It is unit is replenished at a cost of $2000 each refill. suggested by the Federal Airports Corporation that Rooms are illuminated by single lights with corded by the year 2010 there will be 440 000 general wiring. The school's electric supply often fails. The aviation aircraft movements and 12500 heavy eaves and some floor areas reveal uncovered commuter aircraft movements. asbestos. Also, maintenance audits have revealed severe cracking including subsidence cracking and The vast majority of the flights are training wall bowing. operations by a number of companies. Increasingly, built-up areas in and around Dingley and Despite two departmental audits conducted over the Cheltenham and the surrounding areas, extending to past couple of years showing on each occasion that Beaumaris and Mentone, are being affected. Some at least $500 000 should be spent, despite visits by planning arrangement needs to be implemented the former local member for Mitcham, a member for before the sale or lease of the airport. Koonung Province, the Honourable Bruce Atkinson, the regional manager and the facilities officer, and I will certainly be fighting for an evening curfew on even despite dinner at the Han Palace Chinese airport activities. Light aircraft are starting up and restaurant with the minister, nothing has been done. shutting down engines over people's homes up to 70 times a night. If that aircraft noise were being I call on the minister to immediately drag the made by factories on the ground, the Environment school's file out of the low priority, indifferent, Protection Authority would close them down. We too-hard basket and to intervene, re-examining the have not been able to do anything. The former results of the audit reports. The two reports reveal federal Labor government was absolutely hopeless that at least $5000 000 should be spent, but the when it came to pollution controls at the airport. school has been granted $13 000. What an absolutely Based on the lack of direction of the whole airport miserable effort! Mitcham Primary School deserves process, I have grave concerns about how the airport more than such callous indifference, with $13 000 will be taken over and who will take it over. being allocated against an extraordinarily long list of urgent works costed at more than $500 000. The community has the right and expects to know whether it will be disadvantaged. I believe local residents will be disadvantaged. I ask the minister to provide every assistance to implement planning ADJOURNMENT

Tuesday, 11 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 987 arrangements that will allow some industrial There is no logic in the minister's preparedness to development of the airport site and control the interfere on a profoundly Significant issue that will number of aircraft, particularly late in the evening. alter the way people have been used to dealing with Obviously, that is a federal government matter, but I their residential areas. I ask the minister to expect-- reconsider his interference in the matter. Tomorrow the minister will receive a letter from me asking for a The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - meeting between himself and members of the Order! The honourable member's time has expired. community to discuss this issue. We are talking about 9570 square metres of area - one of the Whitehorse: Shell site biggest petrol stations in the state. The minister will not allow the council to have the final saYi he is Mr DOLLIS (Richmond) - I raise for the intervening despite assurances from the local attention of the Minister for Planning and Local members, the former member for Mitcham - as of Government the development of a Shell convenience yesterday - and the Honourable Gerald Ashman. centre at a site at the corner of Whitehorse and Over the next few weeks local residents will be Middleborough roads. As the minister would know, given an opportunity to express their recent he approved a site-specific amendment to the City of desire-- Whitehorse plaruting scheme in August this year. He would also know that the convenience centre site is The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! The approximately 9570 square metres in area, an honourable member's time has expired. incredibly large site. Ballarat: Avenue of Honour Shell applied to the Whitehorse City Council for a permit to develop the site. There were 238 formal Mr JENKINS (Ballarat West) - It is with objections and more than 1100 people signed a pleasure that I raise an issue on Remembrance Day. I petition against the development. The council refer the Premier to the A venue of Honour in refused to grant the permit. Representatives from Ballarat. This avenue is well known by probably all the Shell company went to the Minister for Planning members of the house and beyond because it is a and Local Government. Within 24 hours the minister 22-kilometre line of trees that was planted in had called in the issue and approved the site-specific memory of the men and women who served in the amendments. First World War. Originally there were more than 3500 trees in the avenue but, sadly, the Ballarat Honourable members interjecting. Courier - Victoria's leading provincial daily­ reports 'Landmark crying out for care'. The avenue Mr DOLLIS - 'An excellent service', members has had a chequered history of damage. More than opposite say! Last week a public meeting took place 800 trees are missing from the avenue because of on this very issue. The Parliamentary Secretary for traffic accidents, tree deaths and relocation of road Planning and Local Government, received a areas. A full audit of the trees has been conducted. I bucketful from people who are basically concerned am pleased that the Avenue of Honour committee about the government's interference in their local has been supported by the Rotary Club of Ballarat area. I suggest to the minister that this is an South in conducting a project to restore the avenue incredibly serious issue. to its full glory. The project will require the replanting of the avenue over the next 40 years. The former member for Mitcham and the Some of the trees are in very poor condition and Honourable Gerald Ashman, an upper house need immediate replacement. TIrrough the initiative member for the area, both gave assurances to the of Rotary, the committee and a local nursery some Blackburn Save Our Residential Area Group that trees have already been purchased. Approximately this was a local issue for council alone to decide. The 250 trees have been planted in the nursery in the member for Mitcham resigned today on principle. hope that they will adapt to Ballarat's weather and The opposition is waiting for Mr Ashman's will allow planting to take place in the avenue at the announcement. Irrespective of the commitment opportune time. It is proposed to launch an appeal given to the people that local government would to raise $600 000. decide the issue, the Minister for Planning and Local Government has interfered again. I ask the government, through the Premier, to support this initiative by making a generous donation from the taxpayers of Victoria. The Avenue ADJOURNMENT

988 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 of Honour is the longest-living memorial in the under the heading 'No lease will be able to force a world and something of which we should all be retailer to open': proud. Associated with the avenue is the Arch of Victory, the only arch to traverse a highway It will be an offence under the new act for any retail anywhere in Australia; it is an icon in the Ballarat tenancy agreement to contain a requirement for a shop area. The arch is in quite good condition but the to be open at any particular time or on any particular bronze plaques on the trees, which commemorate day. the war efforts of the diggers, have in some cases disappeared and in others have been severely The reality is that the act provides protection only on damaged by traffic and mowers. The proposal is that a Sunday, not on a public holiday or at any other the trees be replaced where necessary and the time. It seems the Premier has been misleading the plaques refurbished to allow this living memorial to public all along. I ask him to clarify the situation and be maintained for future generations so that the give retailers, particularly those in the Mitcham memory of our diggers will live on forever. electorate, some indication of when he intends to do something about this outrageous situation. It is Retail tenancies: working party report abominable that shopkeepers are being forced to open against their will by avaricious landlords. That Mr HAERMEYER (Yan Yean) - I raise for the is not the spirit in which we should be conducting attention of the Premier the difficulties being our retailing trading hours. confronted by small shopkeepers and the retail industry in Victoria at this time. I ask the Premier to Local government: mayoral allowances instruct his Minister for Small Business to release the working party report on retail tenancies that she has Mr SA V AGE (Mildura) - I raise a matter for the now been sitting on for two months. I also ask him attention of the Premier and in his absence direct it to indicate what he will do about the imbalance of to the Minister for Police and Emergency Services. power that is weighted in favour of shopping centre On Tuesday, 21 October, the Premier stated on owners and landlords against retail tenants, and regional ABC radio that he believed council and what he intends to do about shops being forced to mayoral allowances were too high. The ABC open against their will on public holidays. The transcript states: situation has become quite farcical. Many councillor mayors now are getting 100 000 all-up On Melbourne Cup Day I raised the issue of shops package. That was a mistake. In years gone by it might being forced to open at Eastland shopping centre have been 5, 10, 15. It will be somewhere just above that and in Ringwood. Many of the operators who live in but not much more. the Mitcham electorate will have something to say about that shortly. A significant number of those On Thursday, 30 October, during question time the shopkeepers were forced to open. When the Premier Premier was asked a question about his predicted was asked about this matter he said on the limit on mayoral allowances at $15 000. The Channel 9 news: relevance of the question related to the announcement of a review by the operations section No shop has to open. It's entirely up to them. of the Office of Local Government into mayoral and councillor allowances. To paraphrase the Premier's I can't say it any clearer than that. reply, he indicated that he could not remember or did not mention the figure of $15 000. The Premier A few seconds later the Channel 7 news reported a went on to say that the review panel was going spokesman for the Minister for Industry, Science and about its business and acting independently. If that Technology, Mr Birrell, as saying: was the case, why did the Premier use those words on ABC regional radio: It is quite legal to insist that shops open if that is part of their lease arrangement. ... it might have been 5, 10, 15. It will be somewhere just above that but not much more. That is a contradictory statement. Who is telling the furphy: the Premier or the spokesperson for The magical figure of $15 000 has been mentioned in Mr Birrell? Who has his wires crossed? What is the relation to the preferred allowance with a proviso situation? When the government introduced its new that it will be not much more for mayors. This shop trading legislation it said clearly in a booklet review will obviously present some considerable ADJOURNMENT

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difficulties if it comes up with an allowance concept the region. Certainly the personnel at the RAAF base that is contrary to the clearly preferred option given rely upon it significantly. Earlier this year the by the Premier. Does the Premier realise councils are Fulham correctional facility was opened just outside no longer the same size as they were? Sale. Many of the visitors to that facility also rely on the service. The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - Order! The honourable member needs to ask for As is usual with these forms of service, elderly folk some action to be taken. and young people rely on it as a means of travelling back and forth to Melbourne. Unfortunately, the red Mr SAVAGE - I call on the Premier to give an herring introduced by the honourable member for undertaking to the house that the review panel Morwell has caused a considerable degree of recommendation on mayoral and council allowances disquiet in the minds of people in the local will be unequivocally accepted. If the mayoral community. Will the Minister for Transport further allowance is reduced to $15 000, it will mean the clarify the position so we have some certainty about effective demise of local government in this state. what is intended? Rail: Gippsland line Preschools: funding

Mr RYAN (Gippsland South) - I raise a matter Ms CAMPBELL (Pascoe Vale) - Will the for the consideration of the Minister for Transport Minister for Youth and Community Services write to somewhat reluctantly, because on its merits it is not all kinders in the Southern Peninsula region stating an issue on which I should require clarification from that they are individually or collectively allowed to him. The matter has been pushed into the public write to the minister and receive consideration of the arena by recent comments in the house by the issues they raise irrespective of whether they attend honourable member for Morwell. Liberal Party fundraisers? Will the Minister for Youth and Community Services write to members of Those comments have subsequently been translated the Preschool Association of the Southern Peninsula into two local newspaper articles, one of which inviting them to a free consultation at a venue in appeared in the Traralgon Journal under the heading their region? 'MP has fears of rail line closure'. The article quotes the comments the honourable member for Morwell This government has torn up the rule book of the made in the house and states in part: Westminster system. It has ignored the doctrine of the separation of powers and the importance of the 'The privatised rail line will not go past Traralgon, so independence of the Auditor-General. Now it is in we will be left with another vacant rail line after private danger of ensuring that one has access to a minister operators move in', he told Parliament. only when one writes out a cheque to the liberal Party! The Bairnsdale Advertiser of 10 November states: Parents of preschoolers are familiar with milk and Keith Hamilton, Labor member for Morwell, has stated fruit duties, but they are not familiar with being that there is a possibility that when tenders for milked by their local member, the honourable privatisation of the Gippsland rail line are called, the member for Dromana. I refer to a letter sent to all rail service might end at Traralgon. kinders by the honourable member for Dromana on parliamentary letterhead. It states: This would mean passengers boarding the service at Baimsdale would be bussed to Traralgon, instead of I have great pleasure in inviting you to attend a Sale, as is the current arrangement. function to meet the Minister for Youth and Community Services, the Honourable Denis Napthine, Will the minister clarify the position with the in the Dromana electorate. existing rail service? Currently the service terminates Function: Cocktail party. at Sale after passing through Traralgon. A commuter Date: Wednesday,S November 1997 bus service runs between Baimsdale and Sale. The Time: 5.00 p.m. current service is excellent. Over the past couple of Venue: Rye Hotel years in the order of $80 000 has been spent on Cost: $15 per person improvements at the Sale railway station, which is Cheques payable to: Dromana Electorate Council. used regularly by many members of the public in ADJOURNMENT

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Surely the honourable member for Dromana knows findings will the minister and the PTC take the that 5.00 p.m. is a stunningly naive time for parents necessary action to ensure that accidents such as that of preschool children to attend a function. He also will be avoided in the future? should be aware that parents do not appreciate having further imposts put on their very tight National Parks Advisory Council report budgets, which have been cut by $16.5 million by the Kennett government. There was no opportunity for Ms GARBUlT (Bundoora) - Will the Minister representatives of the kinders to meet the minister for Conservation and Land Management provide without giving donations to the Liberal Party. Since assurances that she will endorse the comments and the Minister for Youth and Community Services address the concerns contained in the annual report afforded them no opportunity for free attendance, it of her National Parks Advisory Council which was is important that he go back into the electorate so tabled in Parliament today. The report to Parliament that parents have the opportunity to meet him free slams government policies from one end to the of charge. Not only are cash-strapped preschools other. Every page is burning with anger and concern being hit, so also is the local community. about government policies and the practices in and the future of our national parks. I have picked up at Rail: crossing warnings least 14 major criticisms of the minister's policies in the council's report. Mr LEAN (Carrum) - I direct a matter to the attention of the Minister for Transport. In doing so I The council is an independent body established ask honourable members to cast their minds back under the National Parks Act. It comprises expert earlier this year to 16 January. I remember it well. It professionals and interested concerned citizens. I was a delightful day down along the bay, when a draw the minister's attention to the persistent young teenage boy, Eric Buren, set forth with a comments throughout the report which raise friend of his for a game of golf. Like most young concern about the impact of commercial lads, he had not got his gear together, so he went on developments and tourism and major a bit of an expedition across to a local golf shop to accommodation facilities on our national parks. The purchase some golf balls. Unfortunately, a train was council recommends that these developments due to come through the crib crossing at Showers should be built outside national parks. I refer to one Avenue. Due to some confusion, Eric waited at the comment in particular: crossing on his bicycle, hanging on to the post at the crib crossing entrance. As the train came through it ... It is the council's view that the construction of clipped the front wheel of the bike. Eric was spun off commercial facilities in parks can create significant the bike and killed instantly. environmental impacts on the natural values of the parks ... When we cast our minds back to the things we did as young people we realise that we made mistakes That sort of comment is repeated on several and did things at which we now look back in horror, occasions. I raise that with particular reference to thinking that if we had our time over, we would Wilsons Promontory. I ask the minister to take the never do them again. Unfortunately, Eric did views of her advisory council into account and to something unwise. But it was a shocking price for a reverse the decision that allows major tourist young boy to pay - he was killed because he made accommodation facilities inside a national park. a simple mistake. They are the sorts of facilities the advisory council specifically recommends should always be outside The coroner's inquest made a number of findings. I national parks because of the damage they do to the ask the minister whether the PTC will be acting on parks and to the environmental values they are the findings? I note that one of them was that supposed to be protecting. I also refer to the warnings at the crib crossing should be more council's comment that there is an inadequate prominent and marked in such a way as to cause representation of all vegetation types in our national people to stand behind a line. Signs should be parks. In light of the recommendations, will the erected warning people that trains may be in the minister deny the comment of her Director of area and asking them to look both left and right. National Parks that no more national parks will be Unfortunately young people tend to ride their bikes established, which will break the government's and take short cuts. Perhaps signs suggesting that election promise? cyclists do not ride their bikes through crib crossings would be appropriate. In view of the coroner's ADJOURNMENT

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Responses Mr GUDE - The passion overtook me.

Mr GUDE (Minister for Education) - The The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! I know the honourable member for Footscray raised a matter passion overwhelmed the minister, but he should concerning the Mitcham Primary School. It is withdraw the remark. interesting that the honourable gentleman raised the matter, because we on this side of the house, along Mr GUDE - I withdraw, Mr Acting Speaker. The with parents and school communities, are conscious passion overcame me. It is appalling when those of the appalling neglect that occurred over a decade sorts of grubby little remarks are made by any of Labor administration, which resulted in schools member. The constituents of all members, including being run down to a point beyond belief. It was the constituents of the Mitcham electorate, can be generously estimated that the cost of overcoming the assured that the government is committed to neglect was of the order of $700 million. achieving quality educational outcomes. It is committed to providing a good school system with I am pleased to advise the house that a full audit of the best of facilities for the students and the teachers, all schools has now been completed. It shows a total and it is committed to ensuring that our youngsters remaining maintenance cost of approximately achieve good outcomes when they complete their $280 million - a reduction of some $390 million schooling. since the government was elected. Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and In addition, in the course of this four-year term the Local Government) - By a miracle of modem government is committed to spending $1 billion in electronics I was able to hear both the honourable the area - and it is on target. It is interesting that member for Mordialloc and the honourable member today three opposition members have come to me at for Richmond. The honourable member for different times to say, 'What a fantastic result the Mordialloc asked whether the Moorabbin and audit has revealed. It is sensational. We have never Essendon airports could be reasonably treated in had that sort of money spent in our electorates, and light of the leasing arrangements that apply to we have never seen a government display that sort Tullamarine airport. In his view, it would be better if of fairness'. a master plan were developed for Moorabbin Airport. The honourable member referred to antique oil heaters. If they are antique, they surely go back to He is worried in a sense about a lack of direction the time of his poor and discredited grubby from the national government, given that its policy administration. The one thing that every school in is rapidly changing from one involving the direct every electorate, not just the electorate of Mitcham, administration of aviation matters to one involving can be certain of is that the government is leasing out. It is a bipartisan policy of both the determined to ensure that the maintenance funds are coalition government and the federal Labor Party. distributed equitably. To be fair, the pool attendant Both governments have pursued the objective of the from Footscray at least admitted that some $13 000 private administration of Australian airports. has been committed to the worst maintenance areas of the school. However, he neglected to point out The honourable member rightly pointed out that in a that the school also gets several thousand dollars in report from Mark Woodland the Kingston City its global budget that can also go to those areas. He Council has told local residents that the number of also neglected to advise the house that in the last flights is expected to increase in the next few years. round of funding we have overcome the worst As the honourable member knows, there have been maintenance problems in every school in the state. complaints about existing flight patterns. That is That has never been done before; the problems have exclusively the jurisdiction of the federal never even been tackled before. Yet this appalling, government, because the state of Victoria has grubby little man comes into this place -- handed over responsibility for aviation matters to the national government. Training flights, low-flying Honourable members interjecting. aircraft and pilots cutting out their engines inappropriately over built-up areas are important The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - civil aviation matters, but they are handled by the Order! The Leader of the House knows better. I ask federal government. him to withdraw. ADJOURNMENT

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I will certainly take up the honourable member's The honourable member is aware but did not tell the suggestion. Together with my colleague in another house that Shell is already dispensing petrol on the place the Honourable Mark Birrell, who has some site. He is aware but did not tell the house that used interest in aviation matters as the minister cars are being sold on the site. He should be aware responsible for state development, I will seek a that the site of 9500 square metres will allow an conference with the federal government to see excellent opportunity for suitable buffer zones whether we can get a dearer sense of the direction between the service station activities and whatever that might be taken with the Moorabbin Airport. I else is developed on the site. He did not tell the will also try to see whether we can get some house, as he should have, that agreement has to be understanding of the action that will be taken to reached between Shell and the local council, which improve flying patterns, especially in the training represents the local community, before any area - although I must say that that has enjoyed a redevelopment can take place. He did not tell the high level of safety, and we are all anxious for that to house that if Shell is unable to reach agreement with continue. We would like to see a better and more the council -- community-responsive approach. We will make contact with the federal government authorities and Mr Dollis interjected. see whether that can be pursued. The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - The honourable member for Richmond strangely Order! The interjections of the honourable member raised a matter in the eastern suburbs - well away for Richmond are disorderly and unparliamentary. from his electorate. It concerned a Shell service station at the corner of Whitehorse and Mr MACLELLAN - Finally, the honourable Middleborough roads. I am pleasantly surprised to member for Richmond did not tell the house that in know that the honourable member was able to find the event that the council is unable or unwilling to that intersection to attend an enthusiastic public reach agreement with Shell regarding the meeting. As the honourable member was present, he redevelopment of the site, Shell may appeal to the would doubtless be aware that the site he described AAT. That is exactly where the matter should be to the house is of a generous nature - 9500 square decided - firstly, at council, and on appeal at the metres or more - and that it already has a Shell AAT, and well away from me! service station dispensing petrol. I take it the honourable member does not object to that aspect of Mr COOPER (Minister for Transport) - The the matter. honourable member for Carrum referred to the tragedy involving Eric Buren, who died after a train I suppose the honourable member is aware that next accident at the Showers Avenue crib crossing in to the service station is a used car yard. I take it he Chelsea on 16 January. The accident gripped the has no objection to that, either. I wonder what it is community of Chelsea and those nearby, with about the site that he objects to. I have no problem considerable justification. The honourable member with the fact that 11 000 people signed a petition and for Carrum described to the house how Eric was a that 238 people objected. However, the honourable young man busily going about his activities when he member must realise that to undertake any met his death in a way that was tragic for his family redevelopment of the site, it will be necessary for the and the community. The accident was an Shell proprietors to reach agreement with the local introduction to the transport portfolio I could have council. well done without, coming as it did only 10 days after my appointment as minister. Mr Dollis interjected. Recently, the coroner conducted an inquest into the Mr MACLELLAN - I am letting them! In fact, I death of Eric Buren. He asked that three matters be require that before any redevelopment of the site can considered by the Public Transport Corporation. I occur agreement must be reached with the local know the honourable member for Richmond council. In the event that Shell and the local council believes this to be an amusing matter, but the cannot reach agreement on how the site should be honourable member for Carrum, the community of redeveloped - it may be about landscaping, or a Chelsea and I do not believe it is something he buffer between present or future areas of the Shell should be laughing about. He should contain his service station, the associated car yard or whatever humour or perhaps should leave the house. other facilities are on the site - Shell might possibly go to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. ADJOURNMENT

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Firstly, the coroner asked the PIC to consider closure', an article in the Traralgon Journal of painting a yellow warning line on each side of the 4 November states: crib crossing at the exit point to the railway line with the words 'Wait here' stencilled in black. The Labor MLA for MOJWell Keith Hamilton has raised coroner's recommendation is already being questions about the closure of the Sale-Traralgon rail implemented. The second recommendation was that line once the service is privatised. warning signs be installed at each side of the crib crossing at the exit point to the railway line. The PTC The article goes on to quote Mr Hamilton: will be trialling a number of different signs to test their effectiveness prior to making decisions on the 'The privatised rail line will not go past Traralgon, so final format. Those signs will then be installed at crib we will be left with another vacant rail line after private crossings. operators move in', he told Parliament.

The third recommendation was that the intensity of 'It is quite clear that the private operators are not the warning klaxon of Met trains be investigated to interested in providing a public service'. ascertain whether the hooters are effective in warning people when drivers sound them as they The article concludes: approach both level and crib crossings. That is being investigated. However, the results are unlikely to Mr Hamilton said Mr Cooper did not deny the bring about any changes because both the PIC and I possibility of the Sale-Traralgon rail line closing once received many complaints from people about V /Line is privatised. warning klaxons being too loud. I understand the concerns of the coroner - certainly his concerns will Under the heading 'Rail concerns', an article in the be investigated - but I am doubtful whether we Bairnsdale Advertiser of 10 November states: will increase the intensity of the warning klaxons without causing considerable amenity problems for Keith Hamilton, Labor member for MOJWeU, has stated people whose houses abut railway lines, particularly that there is a possibility that when tenders for near level and crib crossings. privatisation of the Gippsland rail line are called, the rail service might end at Traralgon. The honourable member for Carrum should convey to Mr Buren, the father of Eric, and to those in his There are realities and there are fables. The realities electorate who have expressed concern and grief are on this side of the house; the fables are with the over Eric's death that I share that grief. The PIC will honourable member for Morwell. What the certainly be doing everything it can to ensure that honourable member for Morwell has been saying is his death does not pass without some recognition of not a fable but in fact an outright lie. The it being recorded by improved safety, particularly at mendacious honourable member has ignored the crib crossings. denials that were issued at the time, both by me by way of interjection and during debate by the The honourable member for Gippsland South drew honourable member for Bulleen. to my attention an allegation made during a debate on 28 October by the honourable member for The honourable member for Morwell has without Morwell, who said there was a story going around any shadow of a doubt created a lot of fear and that the passenger rail service to Gippsland was concern in his own community. He has created a about to be truncated at Traralgon. I was in the situation in which some people are gravely house at the time and I recall saying by interjection concerned about their employment, particularly to the honourable member that the rumour was one those who are employed by the Public Transport that he had started and that there was no truth in it Corporation. I find it remarkable that a member of at all. this house should deliberately spread a pack of lies throughout Gippsland to try to achieve some kind of However, my interjection and a more substantial political result. response by the following government speaker, the honourable member for Bulleen, who also said there If the honourable member for Morwell believes it is was no truth in the rumour, apparently had no effect advantageous to him and his side of politics to on the honourable member for Morwell, because he spread a pack of lies and to create fear in the has repeated his claims to the Gippsland press. community, part of which he purports to represent Under the headline 'MP has fears of rail line in Parliament, I have a great deal of difficulty ADJOURNMENT

994 ASSEMBLY Tuesday, 11 November 1997 understanding why he is a member of this place and reflections on members, I ask that you ask the what he believes his role to be. minister to withdraw those assertions.

There are some standards that should pertain to Mr E. R. Smith - On the point of order -- members of Parliament, but clearly they have escaped the honourable member for Morwell. The The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - outrageous rumour he has not only started but Order! There is a well-established tradition in this attempted to peddle around the Gippsland place that members who feel they have been slighted community has no truth whatsoever. In fact, if the can raise points of order. In this case the honourable honourable member for Morwell had been listening member for Morwell did not raise the matter; it has at question time today when I was asked a question been raised by another member. It is by the honourable member for Murray Valley about unparliamentary to refer to another honourable country rail services, he would have heard me say member as a liar. It is a well-established practice to that the improvements in the V I Line Passenger accept the words 'telling lies' and 'lies' but not the service are among the most outstanding achieved by word 'liar'. The reference the honourable member the Public Transport Corporation and this made to the Speaker's ruling is not something with government since 1992. which I am familiar and I can make no comment on it. Part of that outstanding performance has occurred down in Gippsland. One has only to travel on that Mr Haermeyer - Further on the point of order, line - I suggest that the honourable member for Mr Acting Speaker, the point I raised was not about Morwell should do that every so often - and speak the member's taking offence. It related to the to the people who work on it to understand how comment made by the Minister for Transport that proud they are of the improvements they have made the honourable member for Morwell had and how proud they are of the increased patronage. deliberately spread a pack of lies. As I have said, it is I might add that the 4.1 per cent increase in a different point of order. It was a reflection on -- patronage that was achieved by V I Line Passenger in the last financial year was the third increase in The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! The matter patronage in three years, and it has resulted in the has already been dealt with. greatest number of passengers carried by V I Line Passenger since 1954-55. All that has been ignored Dr NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and by the honourable member for Morwell in his Community Services) - The honourable member attempts to score a nasty political point. He deserves for Pascoe Vale raised a matter regarding preschool to be condemned for this. He is a disgrace for what services and my visit to the Dromana electorate last he has done in causing concern in the Gippsland week. I will place on the record some matters community. What he has said is a lie, and it needs to pertaining to preschool services in response to the be exposed as a lie. issues raised by the honourable member. Almost 60 000 Victorian children have attended preschools Mr Haermeyer - On a point of order, Mr Acting this year, which is 91.8 per cent of all eligible Speaker, on two occasions the Minister for Transport four-year-olds in the state. That is a higher accused the honourable member for Morwell of attendance percentage than was achieved when the telling a lie. On two occasions he also made the Labor Party was in office. It is also the highest statement that the honourable member for Morwell percentage of attendance since records have been deliberately spread a pack of lies. I suggest that in kept. anybody's language that is a reflection on the honourable member for Morwell that should not be People are voting with their feet to support the allowed. preschool services provided by the coalition government. The high participation rate is an Secondly, I ask you to hark back to the Speaker's indicator of the strong support the government ruling last week when the Leader of the Opposition provides to preschools and preschool committees was asked to withdraw an assertion that the Premier throughout Victoria, including $3.6 million in had told a lie. It was the same sort of assertion that one-off grants in 1996, a further $2.6 million this the Minister for Transport has made today - that a year, and a further $1 million in individual grants member of this house told a lie. For the sake of this year. consistency, and, as I say, for the sake of avoiding ADJOURNM ENT

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The government funds 1576 preschool locations, maximising the opportunity for people to meet and which is 266 more than in February 1994 and discuss issues with a minister. The honourable significantly more than were funded under the member for Pascoe Vale raised the matter of previous Labor government. Since 1995 the standard preschools and kindergartens that wished to contact preschool grant for kindergartens has increased by me. They may write to me. I will be happy to receive $68 per child, from $822 to $890. Grants to rural any correspondence from preschools. preschools have increased by more than that. Clearly the preschool and kindergarten programs are alive The honourable member for Dromana has an and well under the current government. A further open-door policy and visits preschools on a regular expansion of services is expected next year following basis. They are confident of going through their legislation which will provide parents with the hardworking and competent local member to deal option, if they wish, of allowing government with issues rather than coming directly to me. The primary schools through their school councils to matter raised by the honourable member for Pascoe conduct preschool services. Vale is a furphy. The actions of the honourable member for Dromana were those of a hardworking The honourable member for Pascoe Vale raised a local member doing his job and maximiSing the particular issue about an invitation issued by the opportunity for people in his electorate to meet with honourable member for Dromana to a function in his a minister who was visiting the electorate. electorate. That recent visit is the third time I have visited his electorate, and I have been extremely Mr W. D. McGRATH (Minister for Police and impressed by the positive response to my visits and Emergency Services) - The honourable member for to the representations of the honourable member. He Ballarat West raised for the attention of the Premier is a well known local citizen and a hardworking and the A venue of Honour that leads out of the City of popular local member. Ballarat and then becomes the Western Highway. I shall bring that matter to the attention of the Premier. During the visit last week I attended a number of activities. I arrived in the electorate at about The honourable member for Yan Yean wants the 3.00 p.m., which was probably an inappropriate time Premier to look at the working party report on retail to visit preschools. Anglicare had organised a tenancies as it relates to small shopkeepers. I shall meeting with the Flinders Child Protection bring that to the attention of the Premier. Association, which is a good local group that is involved in child protection services to promote the The honourable member for Mildura raised for the protection of children and take action against child attention of the Premier mayoral allowances and a abuse. I am pleased the honourable member for review panel consideration for council allowances. Pascoe Vale supports that work. I also visited the He referred to comments made by the Premier on Wongabeena adult day training service for people the radio on 21 October. I shall bring that to the with intellectual disabilities. attention of the Premier.

The honourable member for Dromana, being a The honourable member for Bundoora raised for the hard-working and active local member, wanted to attention of the Minister for Conservation and Land make the maximum use of the opportunity of Management a report on national parks in this state. having people from a range of services meet a I shall ensure that is brought to the attention of the visiting minister. It is to his credit that he wrote to Minister for Conservation and Land Management. preschools and a number of other services inviting them to take advantage of the opportunity to meet In conclusion, I refer to a paragraph at page 682 of me and discuss issues. Many people took up that Hansard of 16 October which states: opportunity, and I was able to hear their concerns and gain a better understanding of the delivery of The management of this prison is clearly cooking the community services in the electorate of Dromana. books. It is covering up serious offences in the prison and is lying to the Office of the Correctional SelVices It is to the credit of the honourable member for Commissioner - the office is lying to the minister and Dromana that he undertook that action, and to the the minister is lying to the public. discredit of the honourable member for Pascoe Vale that she seeks to make cheap political points in this That comment was made by the honourable member way. The honourable member for Dromana was for Yan Yean on that date. simply doing his job as a local member and ADJOURNMENT

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The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - House adjourned 11.08 p.m. Order! The minister is out of order in quoting from Hansard of a previous debate. However, the deed is done. The house stands adjourned until next day. PETITIONS

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 997

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 Assembly its concerns that the current review of Workcover will lead to changes to the Accident Compensation Act 1985, which will be detrimental to workers' rights to a fair and just compensation system and to health and safety in the workplace. The SPEAKER (Hon. S. J. Plowman) took the chair at 10.04 a.m. and read the prayer. Your petitioners therefore request that the government: PETITIONS reject any proposals to further limit access to common law for injuries or illnesses; The Clerk - I have received the following maintain the right of workers to choose their own petitions for presentation to Parliament: medical or health practitioner; Workcover: changes improve access and levels of benefits by restructuring payments to one level after 26 weeks; To the Honourable the Speaker and members of the improve access to independent rehabilitation Legislative Assembly in Parliament assembled: services and return-to-work opportunities;

The humble petition of the undersigned citizens of the increase average premiums in line with the state of Victoria sheweth that changes to Workcover Australian average rather than reduce rights and removing common-law rights, changing serious injury entitlements; and rules and weekly benefit periods, setting high improve health and safety standards and qualifications for lump sum payments and deleting enforcement in the workplace. appeals from medical panel decisions would unfairly restrict the rights of injured workers. By Mr Seitz (148 signatures)

Your petitioners therefore pray that Parliament will Laid on table. reject the proposed changes. PAPERS And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. Laid on table by Clerk: By Mr Lirn (243 signatures) Bethlehem Hospital Inc. - Report for the year 1996-97 National Gallery water wall (two papers)

To the Honourable the Speaker and members of the Financial Management Act 1994 - Report of the Legislative Assembly in Parliament assembled: Minister for Health that he had received the 1996-97 annual reports of the - The humble petition of the undersigned citizens of the Alexandra and District Ambulance Service state of Victoria sheweth that the water wall at the National Gallery of Victoria entrance is a Victorian icon Ambulance Officers' Training Centre and enjoys the recognition of all gallery users. Your Western Health Care Network - Report for the year petitioners therefore pray that the water wall should be 1996-97. retained in any redesign of the National Gallery of Victoria.

And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. INTRODUCTION AGENTS BILL

By Mrs Maddigan (31 signatures) Returned from Council with message relating to amendments. Workcover: changes Ordered to be considered next day. To the Honourable the Speaker and members of the Legislative Assembly in Parliament assembled:

The humble petition of certain citizens of the state of Victoria draws to the attention of the Legislative AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE Auditor-General and enSuring that his power to produce audits is reduced. Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - I wish to move the adjournment of the house for the purpose of The honourable member for Frankston East, who in discussing a matter of urgent public importance - his heart of hearts wants to oppose the changes, will namely, the refusal of the Premier to delay the have time to reconsider his position. The honourable debate on the Audit (Amendment) Bill until after the member for Bentleigh, who in her heart of hearts Mitcham by-election caused by the resignation on also wants to oppose the changes, will have time to Tuesday, 11 November 1997, of the Honourable reconsider, as will the honourable member for Roger Peseott. Mordialloc, who has expressed concerns about the changes. All members of Parliament who represent Required number of members rose indicating the Flinders-Dunkley area - it includes the Main approval of motion being put. Ridge-Red Hill branch of the Liberal Party, which has passed motions on the changes and written Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - I move: letters to every Liberal member of Parliament - will be able to reconsider their position. That the house do now adjourn. Let us consider what the Main Ridge-Red Hill The SPEAKER - Order! The Chair has branch said about the matter in the letter it sent to considered this motion particularly in relation to the each Liberal MP. Under the signature of Mr Tom question of anticipation. Debate on the Audit Gillespie, the president of the branch, the letter says (Amendment) Bill is listed as item no. 8, government three things - and those things are reflected in business, orders of the day, on the notice paper for material that the opposition has received under tomorrow. Anticipation is an important matter for freedom of information provisions. Firstly, the letter examination. The bill is not listed on the government says that if Liberal MPs agree, the Premier's business program this week and there is no approach will: guarantee that it will be called on for debate next (a) lose votes and accelerate loss of electoral support week. Therefore, the Chair will not accept any over time endangering your seat; argument about anticipation. So far as the Chair is concerned, the motion is acceptable. (b) make your life even more frustrating in opposition with the Auditor-General separated from his audit Before calling the honourable member for staff unable to investigate the Labor government Williamstown, I advise honourable members that and therefore is most short-sighted; the scope of this debate must be somewhat narrow. (c) seriously undermine our well-merited reputation for It does not allow debate on the bill that will looking after taxpayers' interests. eventually be before the house. The debate can relate only to the motion, not to the bill listed for debate at Debate on the bill should be delayed until after the a later date. Mitcham by-election because members of the coalition, who in private have expressed concern Mr BRACKS - The resignation letter of the about the matter to me and to other Labor MPs, need Honourable Roger Pescott, dated 11 November 1997, time to reconsider their position. Also, an absolute will go down as the beginning of the end for this con of the first water must be exposed. Somehow rotten government. The Mitcham by-election will be coalition party members have bought the the absolute turning point for the government after proposition that the Premier has made some five years in office. It will be the government's concessions. What a lie and a con! There have been Waterloo, because it brings up the question of the no concessions from the Premier. In November last accountability of the government. No wonder so year he set out to get the Auditor-General by taking many coalition MPs are not in the chamber: they are away his resources and stopping him making any concerned about their own electorates. damaging audits - yet he has succeeded in conning the party room that he has made concessions. The debate of the Audit (Amendment) Bill needs to be delayed until after the Mitcham by-election to The only two concessions he has made are cosmetic. ensure the coalition party room has the chance to be Firstly, he said there would be no tender panels and given a full explanation of what the Premier is that the Auditor-General could pick the contractors. doing. If extra time is allowed, the party room will Secondly, he said Audit Victoria would not be in the come to understand that it is about nobbling the Department of Premier and Cabinet but in the AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Department of Treasury and Finance. He made only themselves, they would admit in private that he is two minor concessions, yet the Premier got his wish the most arrogant Premier in Victoria's history. The to separate the audit office from the Auditor-General. Honourable Roger Pescott has left because of the arrogant, dictatorial style of the Premier. Victoria will become the only state in Australia, and Australia will become the only country, to have an It is worth quoting some extracts from the open Auditor-General who cannot audit. Under the letter Mr Roger Pescott wrote to the Premier. It was proposed legislation, which I will not discuss, the not tabled in the house or read by the Speaker Auditor-General will not be able to use his facilities yesterday but was delivered to the Premier to conduct audits because it will be illegal to do so. separately. I will quote from the letter, which is He will be able only to contract others to carry them reproduced in today's Age: out. The Premier's concessions are an absolute con. They are so transparent, yet amazingly government Dear Jeff, members have bought them. You will have been advised of my resignation from the Even though the exact words included in federal Parliament. legislation by the federal coalition government to enshrine and enhance the independence of the I took this step as the only effective protest available to federal Auditor-General have been transplanted into me against examples of bad government in this state as the state bill, and even though the state legislation measured against the principles of the Uberal Party. talks of independence, autonomy and a hands-off Let me give you three pertinent cases in point. approach, coalition members have been conned. 1. The Auditor-General They were not told about the four words 'subject to this act' in proposed section 4A(6) of the Audit Act. The role of the Auditor-General does not lend itself to All the words about independence and all the party competition with the private sector. In the same way, room propositions are useless because the bill sets opening the administration of police stations for out to separate the audit office from the competition with private security firms would be a joke. Auditor-General and to take away his independence and his control of future audits. We also need to That is a clear and concise argument. The letter examine the reasons why the member for Mitcham, continues: the Honourable Roger Pescott, resigned yesterday. We had the letter -- Whoever heard of an auditor without the capacity to audit? It would be like the Chief Commissioner of Mr Stockdale interjected. Police having no direct control over the police force.

Mr BRACKS - The Treasurer says they do not The first proposition is operational control. The call the former honourable member for Mitcham former member for Mitcham, Roger Pescott, is right. 'honourable' anymore. The government's intentions The government makes great play of the fact that the are so transparent. The government will set out over Chief Commissioner of Police has operational the next week to vilify the Honourable Roger discretion. Yet when it comes to the Pescott, imputing that the reasons for his actions are Auditor-General, the government is prepared to other than those stated. Its objective will be to vilify sacrifice that discretion and say he has none. On and persecute a colleague. Yesterday Mr Roger Workcover Mr Pescott says: Pescott was a hero; today he is a villain. That is what the government is suggesting. This policy is being sold publicly as a reform to stop hungry lawyers from lining their pockets. Yet nobody No doubt government members, in replying to the said that their actions were unlawful. Here is another motion, will suggest that Mr Pescott's motives for example of bad government of which I do not feel I resigning were other than the reasons he stated. want to be part. Common-law rights which have been They will say it is about revenge and about with us since the Magna Carta are being stripped away superannuation considerations. They will make all from members of our community because the legal sorts of claims because they are worried that the profession has been operating within a law which this truth will be revealed - namely, that he resigned government approved. Please attack the problem we because he could not stomach an arrogant Premier condoned, don't penalise people because of it. who wants to deal with every critic in the state. If honourable members opposite were honest with AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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That is exactly what the opposition and every scared to say it outside the party room - and political commentator in Victoria have been saying; usually it is too scared to say it in the party room it is exactly what has been said in the party room by itself. The reason Mr Pescott did not go into the bills the 24 members of the coalition who stood up committee is clear: it was a useless exercise. What against the proposition to knock off common-law did it achieve? It achieved the most cosmetic of rights. changes. The Premier changed the tender panels. It was agreed that the federal arrangements would On the style of government Mr Pescott says: apply in Victoria but there was a sting in the tail: Audit Victoria would be privatised within the next Political analysts advocate politicians should be judged two years! What a great win by the bills committee. on what they achieve, not on what they say. At any What heroes. The real winner is the Premier. He election there is a contract between the electors and the won 10 to nothing against the weak party members elected. In my view that contract has now been broken of the bills committee who could not achieve reform. with regard to the two issues above - They got a couple of words in the second-reading speech but those words are meaningless. If you Workcover and the Auditor-General- consider the legal position you see that the bill separates the audit function from the Without going into details here, your - Auditor-General. He cannot audit any longer at all; he has no discretion and no legal cover to audit. It the Premier, Jeff Kennett's- means also that the whole audit function will be­ privatised. All we have now is someone who will style of government has its advantages sometimes contract out work. He will have no discretion, no because it summarily dismisses obstacles in the way of investigatory powers and no ability to pursue the commonsense. Yet overall it has many dangers. Liberal things he has pursued in the past. The government Party debate has been constricted to a faint trickle, has conned the party room on the matter. which has meant many liberals fear speaking up for the principles which prompted Menzies to form the All the Premier has set out to do from the very start party many years ago. Members have two options. is to stop the Auditor-General's audit program for Speak up and be branded as disloyal to the cause. Say the future in its tracks. I will give an example of nothing and be part of it. what the Premier is attempting to do. The Premier does not want to delay this matter until after the That was the choice faced by the Honourable Roger Mitcham by-election because he knows he cannot Pescott. Did he go to a sham bills meeting to discuss hold his party room. Let us hope the Mitcham the audit review question? The party bills committee by-election occurs at the earliest possible date - and achieved nothing. Zero! your authority, Mr Speaker, to hold it is one that has it being held at the earliest possible date. I know you Mr Kilgour - How do you know? will take proper advice on that matter, but I believe 13 December - the earliest possible date - would Mr BRACKS - Because I have seen the be appropriate, and that could be announced within legislation. From your correspondence on this the next five or six days. That would be better than matter you know where you should be standing on having it over the Christmas period, which would be Workcover! The opposition knows about the the wish of the government in order to confuse it honourable member's letter defending common-law with the festive season. rights on paper, saying they should be retained. We know what you said on paper about common law I shall paint a scenario: the Mitcham by-election to-- occurs, there is a Significant and sustained swing against the government on the Auditor-General The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable issue because that will be the central campaign member should address his remarks through the matter, and the legislation has not been passed. Chair. What would happen? Liberal Party members would say, 'The message is dear, Premier. You need to Mr BRACKS - We know what the honourable change the legislation. You need to go back to what member for Shepparton has said on paper to we had. The voters have expressed their view in lawyers in his electorate, defending common-law Mitcham and have said they do not want this rotten rights and saying they would not be changed. That legislation.' That is why the Premier will not do it. is the reality and we know the government is too He knows the constituents of Mitcham will say it is AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1001 just not on. That is why he wants to rush the Case-mix funding in public hospitals, legislation through now. municipalities, child care and kindergartens are some of the others. We will read about fees and the It was interesting that the Premier was so forthright cost of access to kindergartens being $500 a year and in answer to a question during question time more. There is more: police customer service yesterday. His usual avoidance of answering strategy; central risk assessment - Department of questions was not there. He was asked whether he Treasury and Finance; central risk assessment - would delay the legislation until after the Mitcham Department of Premier and Cabinet; and by-election. The answer was no. Talk about outsourcing across the public sector. How's nervousness! To leave the matter open is to let the outsourcing going, Treasurer? people decide. Fancy letting the people decide on a matter such as this. Clearly the Premier knows that We would like to hear from the Treasurer about the he could not hold the line. If a significant by-election Auditor-General's role in that. A further subject for swing occurred in Mitcham, as I believe it will, the the Auditor-General is the privatisation project, matter of the Auditor-General would influence party which has yet to be determined. HRL would be a members to find the backbone they did not have the good one to pick. Who signed off on HRL? Where last time to overturn the Auditor-General's was the Treasurer? Why did the Premier sign off on legislation. That is the major reason the Premier will HRL as acting Treasurer? Why does the Premier not not accede to this request. want these matters exposed?

The second fundamental reason why the Premier Another subject for the Auditor-General is the wants to get this legislation through as quickly as potential new audits for 1997-98 and beyond. The possible is the exposure in the future. Mr Ches Auditor-General has been absolutely open about the Baragwanath, the Auditor-General, a honourable audits he will be conducting in the future. He is man, deals with his audit program explicitly and looking at municipalities across the board, including transparently through the Public Accounts and the management of compulsory competitive Estimates Committee and to the executive, and his tendering - read 'super black hole' or read 'hidden forward program is known in advance. But the costs'. Victorians will never see the audits proposed Auditor-General's forward program is like a death for 1997-98 and beyond. Clearly, the new system warrant to the Premier, a man who hates scrutiny will be in place, and these matters will not be and criticism. If you consider what is proposed pursued. ahead of time you can see why the Premier will not delay the passing of the legislation. The following I direct honourable members' attention to the matters are proposed ahead of time for the 1997-98 following items: higher education amalgamations, audit program for this financial year and beyond, intellectual disability services, a follow-up of the which is why the Premier wanted to contract out the drinking water audit, Victorian Prison Industries audit function. The management of the gaming Commission, and so on. That was the death warrant. industry is coming up. Gaming is not a matter to Mr Ches Baragwanath had the temerity to enter into which the Premier is sensitive; it is clearly of the sensitive areas of prime reform for the personal interest to him. How propriety in the government. That was his sin - to do his job. gaming industry is achieved is fundamental in this Victoria has the only Premier of any state with a state. Of course the Premier wants to get this brittle jaw who cannot stand criticism or attack. He legislation through quickly, to split up the office, to enjoys dishing it out, but he hates receiving it. avoid discretion and investigation of these matters Regardless of whether it comes from the deputy in the future. public prosecutor, the equal opportunity commissioner, the Administrative Appeal Tribunal, The second matter is Schools of the Future. The third the Auditor-General or FOI, the Premier hates is the public transport reform program. Wow! For criticism. His aim since November last year has been that read Onelink, ERG, bungle and Intergraph 2. to nobble and silence his critics. That is what it is all about. That is why he wants to stop it. The Premier has known about the program The 11th day of the 11th month of 1997 is a since November last year, when he found the reason watershed. It will go down as the turning point in under competition policy to nobble the this government's second term. I know the impact Auditor-General and change the Audit Act. by-€lections can have on the government of the day Government members have been conned and have as well as anyone. I have fought two by-€lections, not stood up in the party room as they should have. each of three months duration. One was in Ballarat AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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North in 1988 when the then Labor government was mismanaged his people are, he will stand behind in power and one was in Williamstown. The them. The Premier believes any short-term damage honourable member for Bundoora knows that done, for example, by the former Minister for Health following the 1988 election and following the VEOC mucking up her portfolio by signing the Intergraph report by the Auditor-General, a by-election was arrangements is outweighed by the long-term fought and won by the government in security of having a team that will not resign or Greensborough. The Kennett opposition had little move out. success. In the 1988 by-election I fought, the Kennett opposition made no inroads, and the Labor The recent events are significant because the Premier government went on to win the 1988 election. could not control them. Did honourable members see the Premier's face yesterday in the house or on By-elections can have profound repercussions. I TV last night? His whole strategy was unravelled. believe the Mitcham by-election will result in a The Premier could not prevent one of his culture change in this state. It will be the beginning backbenchers from resigning by deferring to him or of the end for this government. My words will be buying him off. No doubt if the honourable member recorded in Hansard and they will stand up to for Mitcham had gone to the Premier, the Premier scrutiny in the future. This is a five-year turning would have found a way to prevent its happening. point. It is the right seat, the right by-election, the But the honourable member for Mitcham is too right issues and the right time. Everything is against principled and too smart for that. this government in that seat. It is an extraordinarily diffirult seat to win. Federally, it has returned a The opposition knows this event is the beginning of coalition-Liberal Party member. The Labor Party the end for the government. In Shepparton it saw the held the seat by a whisker for a very brief period state council of the Liberal Party pass a resolution between 1982 and 1992. In the whole history of against the Premier's intention to nobble and change Mitcham there have been only three occasions when the Auditor-General's functions. Imagine what the the Labor Party has held the seat. The reality is that government would say about a state conference of any swing that occurs will be a reflection of the the Labor Party voting against a proposition. That is public's perception of the government's proposals what has happened to the government. Liberal Party for the Auditor-General. If the Labor Party achieves members of the coalition have stood up in debate a 2 per cent swing away from the Liberal Party, it and voted against the Premier's wishes. The will be the beginning of the end for this government. opposition has also seen for the first time motions being put and seconded and votes being taken in the These things build on each other. The catalyst is the coalition party room on Workcover. There are signs Honourable Roger Pescott, a man who had the guts of division and decay in the government: the to act, a former senior member of this government, resignation of the member for Mitcham and motions deputy leader and former industry minister, who at state council and in the party room on the has always had considerable regard for democratic Auditor-General and Workcover being moved and processes in this state. He could not stomach the seconded. It is the beginning of the end. Members of arrogant Premier, who will stop at nothing to get his the government do not see the signs. I am comforted way on Workcover, the Auditor-General, on by the smirks of the Treasurer and the honourable silencing the opposition and denying the public the member for Doncaster. I hope and pray they do not right to access the freedom of information process. see the Signs. If they are not prepared they will not take corrective action to prevent what will happen. Mitcham will be a crucial turning point for this The resignation of the member for Mitcham, the government. The Premier has all his fingers in the Honourable Roger Pescott, on 11 November is the dike. The resignation yesterday of the honourable beginning of the end for the Kennett government. member for Mitcham, Mr Roger Pescott, has The polls will show it and Mitcham will show it. released one of the fingers and water is flowing out. This is a problem the Liberal Party will not be able to Pressure is building up. Events over the next couple remedy. of years will precipitate an enormous dive in the authority of this government. One of the Premier's Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - The motion is an three-card tricks, mentioned in the 1996 election interesting comment on how the Labor Party sees campaign, has been to ensure that by standing the amendments to public auditing in this state. It is behind his people he has absolute authority. He does suggested that the issue itself is not of such not have resignations or people walking out of the importance that it warrants a debate but that it has show. No matter how potentially corrupt or been given public importance and urgency by the AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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resignation of Roger Pescott. Let us test that The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable proposition. The lasting threat to come from member for Dandenong North and others will have yesterday's resignation is that it has struck terror an opportunity to make contributions, but not by into the hearts of Brian Doyle and other stand-up shouting interjections. comedians who work in this state. If ever there were a matter of high comedy, it is Roger Pescott's Mr STOCKDALE - He built a reputation and preening himself as a man of high principle. became the darling of the media by launching personal attacks on members of the Labor cabinet in Opposition members interjecting. the declining years of the Cain and Kirner governments. When he was not in the mood to Mr STOCKDALE - I see that opposition attack them, he spent his time undermining people members appreciate the comedy, because they are who in those days were on that side of the house - roaring with laughter at the man's propositions. 1 that is, members of his own party. entered Parliament on the same day as Roger Pescott. No doubt he has talents that enable him to From time to time there are great parliamentarians make a contribution to any organisation he works who stand up for the principles of the house, and 1 for - but being the conscience of an organisation is include the Speaker and past Speakers. There have not one of them. Today's media reports Mr Pescott been members from both sides of the house who as saying in a letter that I have not had the pleasure have become renowned as spokespeople for the of seeing - no doubt it is good for a few belly principles of parliamentary democracy - but Roger laughs as well - that he is frustrated at not being Pescott has never been one of them. I invite anyone able to advance his policy positions within the to look up Hansard and find a speech in which Roger coalition. Pescott stood up for the principles of Parliament. He has built a reputation not on debating policy but on 1 have been in this place with Mr Pescott for personal invective. 121/2 years, and I have to give him his due. In all that time he has been absolutely consistent: I have not It is said he has backbone. I would like to know heard him advance one issue of public policy. It has where he got the backbone transplant! What about all been personal invective and disloyalty. There his political philosophy? This morning we heard have been attacks on -- about it on 3AW. How did he come to be a member of this Parliament? The story is that soon after he Honourable members interjecting. was posted to a diplomatic position in communist Eastern Europe he and his wife placed an order for a Mr STOCKDALE - During the declining -- new dining table for the chancery. You can just see Roger picking up the telephone and using some Honourable members interjecting. inefficient telephone service in Eastern Europe to order a new dining table. The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable member for Williamstown was heard in almost total What motivated him to give up a stellar career in the silence. I ask opposition members to hear the diplomatic service and come to the Victorian Treasurer likewise - particularly the honourable Parliament? It took six months to deliver his new member for Yan Yean. dining table, and he was outraged at the inefficiency. After six months of waiting he said to his wife, 'I can Mr STOCKDALE - 1 pick up the interjection, tolerate socialism no longer. 1 have to stand for Mr Speaker. I do not think any member of the house preselection for the Victorian Parliament and fight would be in any doubt not only that 1 am not on from Bennetswood to protect the rights of the people Roger Pescott's Christmas card list but that not once of Eastern Europe. We have to overthrow in 121/2 years has he been on mine! 1 have never communism from Spring Street. Let's roar. Let's heard him advance one policy position in any have everybody get his table on time. Let's not have forum. If you look at Hansard you will see that he anybody wait. No Eastern European will have to did not build a reputation and become the darling of wait six months for a dining room table in my the media by debating policy in this house. He capitalist Victoria!'. That is his background. I must attacked Labor Party members of Parliament on -- concede it is a motivater for a political career and a powerful political philosophy. His political Honourable members interjecting. philosophy rests -- AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Honourable members interjecting. He is very proud of having abstained. He made sure that this morning's national press had prominent Mr STOCKDALE - His political philosophy coverage of an issue that was so important to him rests fairly and squarely on -- that he has resigned his seat in Parliament - even though he abstained from voting. We will now have Honourable members interjecting. to have a by-election because he felt so keenly about those issues that he abstained from voting in the The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable party room. In my experience abstaining is not the members for Mill Park, Springvale and Doncaster action of somebody who has strong moral will cease interjecting. The honourable member for convictions and strong principled positions. It is the Williamstown, who put the motion, was heard in action of somebody who wants to avoid being seen almost total silence and I want the same courtesy to take a position. extended to the Treasurer. If individual members do not like the remarks the Treasurer is making, they We have the delightful experience of seeing the can debate them when they have their opportunity, Labor Party positively salivating about the which they will have shortly. resignation of Roger Pescott. What a fantastic comment on the once grand Victorian Labor Party Mr STOCKDALE - Here is a man whose that it takes the resignation of Roger Pescott to give political philosophy rests squarely on the four legs it a shot in the arm. of an Eastern European dining table. Here is a man who was driven into politics not, like honourable Looking at the history of by-elections and at the members on the other side, by any outrages suffered margin by which the government holds the seat of by the disadvantaged and not by a concern for Mitcham, I freely concede that it will be extremely working Victorians that suddenly emerged difficult for the government to win the Mitcham yesterday. by-election mid-term. What justification does that give for the motion? Clearly the by-election will be I do not recall him once joining the debate about the an extremely hard-fought one in which the Labor Workcare reforms. I do not remember Roger Party, unlike with other by-elections, will becoming the champion of the working Victorian presumably run a candidate. Mr Pescott is not the until he needed an excuse to cloak his disappearing only one who has had a backbone transplant; the from Parliament when he realised his parliamentary Labor Party will now run a candidate. career was at an end. What has he done about the convictions he discovered yesterday? He has not It was most interesting to see the attitude of the spoken in the party room, and so far as I am aware honourable member for Niddrie yesterday. If he he has not spoken in Parliament on the issue. were a puppy he would have just about wagged his tail off! What do these two have in common? Why is Did he vote? Perhaps in the cloisters of the it that the honourable member for Niddrie gets so parliamentary party room, where we cannot disclose much pleasure out of the fact that Roger Pescott what happens, he took a principled position that, not resigned his seat? It cannot be the principles they having spoken against it, he could no longer be both share, because they would both rush to tell us silent when the time came to vote against the motion that they do not agree on political philosophy. and put up his hand to defeat those heinous steps! Despite what Roger Pescott is reported as saying in We know that on this occasion -- this morning's newspaper, when he wrote to Mr Speaker he said he would not vote with the Mr Bracks interjected. Labor Party. He will not be voting in the by-election because he does not live in the electorate. However, Mr STOCKDALE - We do not have to worry today he is urging the electorate to vote against the about disclosing anything confidential, because an government. It is not political principles they share; article in this morning's Herald Sun quotes it is not even the claim of being a man of principle, Mr Pescott as saying what he did in the party room. because I do not believe the honourable member for He told us that he did not vote for the motion and Niddrie would claim that. Then it struck me: the that he has not supported the things he now finds so thing they have in common must be polo. The objectionable - but he did not vote against them, honourable member for Niddrie must be a closet either. He took the politically courageous position­ polo fanatic. it was obviously before the backbone transplant - to abstain. AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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You can see him at weekends leaving the indeed extraordinary. Previous letters of resignation Kingswood and moccasins in Niddrie and rushing have been simple. Usually people resign for health home to Carlton to get into his elastic-sided boots, reasons. I have a number of copies of letters of check shirt, woollen tie and jodhpurs, before leaping resignation that go back to 1975. David Bornstein into his Range Rover, backing down the drive and resigned in February 1975, regretting that he was heading off to Werribee Park for a shared experience unable to continue as the member for Brunswick with good Roger! That is what they have in East. He did not provide much more information common - they both love polo! There is nothing than that. Clyde Holding resigned because he was they love better than a chukka together! Now the going to contest a federal seat and Barry Jones did dark secret is revealed. This is not an issue of the same thing. Dick Hamer's reasons for resigning political principle; this is about having more time to as the member for Kew were similar. Most of these play polo together. Maybe the honourable member letters make it clear that they resigned for personal for Niddrie will resign as well! This is certainly not a or ill-health reasons. However, that was not the case matter of high political drama; rather it is one of a with the letter of resignation from the member for vindictive character indulging a passion. You do not Mitcham. Mr Pescott made some very serious have to take that from me, you have only to read the accusations. His letter states: Age this morning to see that Tony Parkinson acknowledges the basis of Roger Pescott's I expected commonsense to prevail. resignation. Even in the extravagant hyperbole of the coverage of the Herald Sun today, there is the That was about the debate on the Auditor-General. occasional recognition that this is more about He continues: personal rivalries, longstanding antipathies and the fact that he is no longer a minister in this In my considered view, the government's proposals government than about high principle. compromise the system of checks and balances which are at the core of our system of government. To me, If this were about high principle, we would have they run fundamentally counter to the public interest. heard about it. We would have heard Roger Pescott out telling people before he resigned what his That is a very serious accusation about where position was on this issue. We would not have him democracy is heading in this state. He continues: conceding in today's newspaper that when the moment of truth arrived, when he could actually It has been a long time since I have found the avenues decide whether he was going to vote for his for serious debate within the Liberal Party satisfactory principles or sit mute, he sat mute. The reason he ... I see it as a further part of my protest in that it will be resigned yesterday, the reason he wrote to a plebiscite - Mr Speaker and the reason he is giving every press interview he can today is because he hates that is, a by-election - Jeft Kennett. It has nothing to do with political principles! on the Auditor-General legislation.

Mr HULLS (Niddrie) - That was one of the most Those serious accusations go to the heart of grubby attempts by a Treasurer on behalf of a democracy and accountability and of transparency grubby government to smear a person who had the in government. Mr Pescott wants the by-election to backbone to stand up to the Premier, who has be a plebiscite on the Auditor-General. Indeed, he become a standover merchant. The Treasurer has wants it to be a plebiscite on democracy, on the become part of the collusion that continues to stifle government's style and in particular on the style of criticism and dissent and to undermine public the Premier. Some time ago in this place I spoke confidence in the democratic processes. He is part of about the umbrella of integrity. I said government an undemocratic government that is already morally members had a choice: they could stand up to bankrupt and is fast becoming corrupt. The Kennett's standover tactics and put up that umbrella Treasurer's contribution shows he is no more than of integrity or they could accept the corruption that Kennett with eyebrows! He is prepared to shoot the will eventually flow from the arrogant messenger and ignore the message totally. brook-no-criticism style of the Premier.

Yesterday one of the most extraordinary letters of Mr Pescott has decided that enough is enough! He reSignation ever was tabled in this house. The has decided that democracy is at risk in this state reasons given by Mr Pescott for his resignation were and he does not want to be tarnished for the rest of AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

1006 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 his life as a person who did not stand up for More importantly, he also refers to the right to democracy in Victoria. Today an article in the Herald dissent, which is also the topic of Mr Pescott's letter Sun under the headline 'Democracy at risk' states: of resignation. At page 142 the following appears:

Iron curtain overtones says Mr Pescott. In the past, when church and other community leaders, including academics, have expressed independent Mr Pescott made it quite clear that democracy is at concerns with respect to public issues in Queensland, risk when he stated: their comments frequently have been rebuffed by a barrage of propaganda and personal abuse. The process which has been followed has not always followed a democratic process and that's something Many persons of ordinary sensitivity, who have not I've felt increasingly uncomfortable about ... Once you been hardened by experience in public life, are become a member of the goverrunent there is a strong effectively deterred by such invective from valuable code of silence that everyone is expected to follow. participation in public affairs. People don't speak up because they fear they will be branded disloyal. I disapprove of what is being done to People of differing opinions have the right to express the Auditor-General so strongly that I felt I needed to those opinions, and to act peacefully to bring their protest ... I believe the most effective means of doing arguments to the attention of the wider community. that is outside the party structure. That does not occur in Victoria. Anyone who is He went on to talk about other concerns he has prepared to speak out against the government gets about the processes within the government. The hit over the head with a baseball bat and is told to matters Mr Pescott has complained about go to the shut up or get out. You are not allowed to stand up heart of the democratic process. They were pointed to Mr Kennett because if you do you are seen to be out first in the Fitzgerald report on corruption in un-Victorian - and there is no place for you in the Queensland. That report made it clear that if state. members of Parliament do not have opportunities to speak out, if opportunities for debate are stifled, if In years to come Mr Pescott wants to be able to look there are no proper checks and balances and proper his kids in the eye and say, '1 stood up to the parliamentary processes are ignored, corruption will Premier. 1 stood up to potential corruption and 1 flourish. Mr Pescott has already seen the signs. No made the strongest possible statement'. Members of doubt he has read the Fitzgerald report. the Queensland Parliament were not prepared to do that. Don Lane, Brian Austin, Geoff Muntz and At page 126 of the Fitzgerald report, which Leisha Harvey were not prepared to stand up to a Mr Pescott referred to when he mentioned the corrupt Premier, and as a result they paid for their secrecy and the code of silence that exists within the sins. They were found guilty of corruption and spent government, the following appears: time in gaol. They will not be able to look their children or grandchildren in the eye with any Secrecy and propaganda are major impediments to credibility or dignity. accountability, which is a prerequisite for the proper functioning of the political process. Worse, they are the Mr Pescott will be able to do that, because he has hallmarks of a diversion of power from the Parliament. stood up to this Premier - and let's hope others follow. We all know that three or four members of Information is the linchpin of the political process. Parliament stood up to the Premier at the Liberal Knowledge is, quite literally, power. If the public is not Party state conference. The honourable members for informed, it cannot take part in the political process Mordialloc, Bentleigh and Doncaster stood up to the with any real effect. Premier and expressed concern about the legislation on the Auditor-General. Where are they now that Mr Fitzgerald goes on to refer to the letting of the Treasurer has made one of the most grubby contracts and how the process has to be transparent. speeches ever made against a member of this place? That is not the case in Victoria. Mr Pescott knows Are they prepared to stand up for their former that is not the case, which is why he has taken the colleague, the former honourable member for unusual step of resigning and forcing a by-election. Mitcham? Let's wait and see. Mr Fitzgerald also referred to the pecuniary interest register and the need for members of Parliament to The honourable member for Doncaster should be at be open and transparent about their declarations. the forefront in defending the former member for AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Mitcham. He has always trotted around the state Menzies, which he hopes to win preselection for - claiming that he is a defender of democracy and that and he knows he has a tough battle on his hands. He he believes in open, transparent and accountable makes no secret of the fact that he wants to get out of government. One has only to look at some of the this place. An article that appeared in the Age as things he has said. In March 1993 in a publication long ago as 10 March 1991 states in part: called Lawlines the honourable member for Doncaster is reported as saying: This week, Mr Perton told his leader that his sights had for a long time been set on Canberra. 'My federal Over a long period of time there has been growing ambitions are well known', he said. concern about the increasing power of the executive as opposed to Parliament. This committee - That was in 1991. We know he has no future in this place. The Premier hates his guts, so the honourable the Law Reform Committee, which he heads - member is looking for a way out, and in doing so he has compromised his principles. He has gone is a way to redress that imbalance. jellyback to try to attract the centre left votes in the electorate of Menzies. He has decided to pretend he There he purports to be a defender of democracy. In is a team player and to not stand up to the Premier May 1994 he is reported as saying during in a debate on a most important issue, the independence of the in this place: Auditor-General. His is a disgraceful performance. He has shown he has no guts at all. He walks into My entire family holds strong views about civil liberties this house with his typical cheesy grin, but he and the right to justice, whether for criminals or for should be condemned. victims. In failing to stand up and defend the former In an article in the Herald Sun in 1991 he is quoted as honourable member for Mitcham, he will now be saying: tarred with the same brush that all those shonks and charlatans in Queensland were tarred with, Open government is very important, whether it's Labor including the Geoff Muntzes, the Leisha Harveys or Liberal ... and the Don Lanes of the world. He had his chance and he has blown it. He is an absolute disgrace. He You get better decision making if you know someone is is one of the leading butchers of democracy in this always looking over your shoulder. state because he has continually voted for absolutely repressive legislation, including the bill that I don't see anything wrong with taxpayers knowing undermined the independence of the DPP and got exactly what government is doing with their taxes. rid of Bernie Bongiorno.

Obviously, that was a defence of the He will no doubt vote to undermine the Auditor-General. The honourable member has been independence of the Auditor-General. He is not ruruting around the place saying, 'I am a defender of prepared to defend the freedom of information laws democracy and of open, accountable and and the attempt by the government to get rid of transparent government'. What has he done today? appeals to the AAT. He is a disgrace and he ought He has been brought into line by the Premier and the go. Let's hope he gets preselection for Menzies Treasurer. Today he has been heard on radio and is because he is not welcome in this place. Why not kill reported in the newspapers as saying that the two birds with the one stone? The liberal Party member for Mitcham's resignation is nothing more should allow a member for Koonung Province in than an attempt to receive a large superannuation another place, Mr Bruce Atkinson, to run for the seat payout and that it is not about a matter of principle of Mitcham. Let's get rid of both of them at once! at all. That was said by Victor Perton, a person we would expect to be at the forefront of the defence of Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Agriculture and the former honourable member for Mitcham. He has Resources) - The issues raised by the honourable gone jellyback! He is toeing the Premier's line and is members for Niddrie and Williamstown in moving not prepared to stand up for someone who had the and supporting the motion that the house now backbone to stand up to the Premier, Mr Kennett. adjourn for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgent and public importance - that is, deferring Why has he sold out his principles? To find the debate on the Audit (Amendment) Bill until after the answer we have only to look to the federal seat of by-election for Mitcham - are absolute nonsense. AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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The Treasurer has outlined the reasons behind the The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - recent resignation of Mr Pescott. The point that Order! The Chair is having some difficulty in should be reinforced is that the government, more relating the remarks of the Deputy Premier to the than any other state or federal government in past motion being debated. I will accept a passing decades, has gained a reputation for being reference, but the minister should return to the particularly solid and united over a range of tough adjournment motion. issues. As was said earlier, the honourable member for Niddrie has been a little like a puppy being Mr McNAMARA - I was alerting the house to served his first bowl of Uncle Ben's dog food - with the hypocrisy of the opposition, and the way in his tail wagging! The honourable member for which it has misrepresented the actions of this Mitcham decided to resign because he was not government which has given Victoria, without happy with the process involved in dealing with the doubt, the best Australian state government in living Audit (Amendment) Bill. memory. There is no doubt that the past five years of this government have been the best period in He also referred to proposed changes to the Victoria for the past 40 years; there has been no Workcover legislation. A range of meetings over better government than ours during the past five some months has been held about Workcover. I years. Hard decisions have had to be made, but at understand Mr Pescott was not involved in those the end of the day those decisions have improved detailed discussions which have attracted much the lot of Victorians. interest particularly by government members during the past five years. About 35 government members It is nonsense to suggest we should defer debate on have attended those bills committee meetings. The the Audit (Amendment) Bill and await the results of government has done a lot of work to get the best a by-election. One of the main complaints of the possible outcome from its Workcover changes. The opposition about the audit legislation is that more former honourable member for Mitcham was not private companies will be involved in conducting involved in any of those meetings. audits. But 75 per cent of the audits being conducted at the moment are contracted out. Mr Pandazopoulos interjected. Mr Haermeyer - On a point of order, Mr Acting Mr McNAMARA - A huge improvement! Many Speaker, when Mr Speaker allowed debate on this of the transport unions are recognising that because motion to proceed he warned specifically that the they are not going on strike today. I am sure that at motion precluded any foreshadowing of the today's rally we will see a tapering off in the number legislation, which I believe the Deputy Premier is of people compared with those who attended the now doing. rally a couple of weeks ago. The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! I do not The opposition talks about Liberal Party hypocrisy. I uphold the point of order. The minister had not refer the house to the comments made in the federal proceeded a sufficient distance for the Chair to Parliament when changes were made to federal determine whether he was breaching the guidelines workers compensation legislation. In 1988 the that are readily accepted and well established in this federal Labor government abolished common-law place in relation to relevance. I shall hear more. appeals for injured commonwealth workers. The Leader of the Opposition in this place was the then Mr McNAMARA - The government will federal member for Bendigo. The comments made continue to deliver the outstanding and unparalleled by the then federal Labor minister were that government Victorians have experienced in recent common law, in that government's view, had been times. The opposition has been petty on a range of an expensive and inefficient method of issues and has never been able to acknowledge the compensating injured workers. good work of the government. We will proceed with the audit legislation in the normal time frame set I understand the Leader of the Opposition has been down for debate during this sessional period. There mealy-mouthed today; he has tried to excuse that is no need to defer debate on the audit legislation vote taken in 1988, when he supported the removal until after a by-election. It is important that we of common-law rights. He has spoken about continue to pass the legislation in the time frame set compensation for pain and suffering still being in down by the Leader of the House and others. this government's legislation. AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Equally, workers compensation legislation will Mr THWAITES - Pull your head in! The proceed after what have been some of the most Treasurer criticised Mr Pescott for driving a Range detailed consultations seen on almost any piece of Rover, for playing polo and for wanting a particular legislation in recent history. That issue was not table. Yet, the Treasurer is happy to drive around in rushed through even the cabinet process. We took a his wife's free BMW on his way to the Royal long time to ensure we got the best result -- Melbourne golf course!

Mr Hulls - Did you discuss it with Roger? In his snide way the Treasurer referred to the honourable member for Niddrie and the people he Mr McNAMARA - We all discussed it with represents; he refers to them as people wearing Roger. The outcome he arrived at is outstanding. I moccasins who drive HoIdens. He makes his snide am sure that had the honourable member for comment as an insult whereas, of course, the Niddrie been in the federal Parliament at the same Treasurer - the great hero of the working class who time as his leader, he would have voted with him on has devoted his whole career to destroying the the common-law provisions which the interests of workers, who backs the Workcover commonwealth Labor government removed in 1988. legislation, who has spent his whole life before coming to this place representing employers - was Honourable members interjecting. not only intent on destroying the workers' rights-- Mr McNAMARA - Common-law rights for economic losses were removed from its legislation Honourable members interjecting. by the commonwealth Labor government in 1988. It is in black and white! There is no need to have Mr THWAITES - Ask anybody -- further delays in the time frame for debate on the audit bill. The government will proceed as it has The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - always planned. Order! The Deputy Leader of the Opposition is straying close to breaching standing order 108. I ask Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - The speech of him to keep that in mind and not proceed along the the Treasurer this morning demonstrates the path I think he was going down. approach the government will adopt in the Mitcham by-election - that is, vitriol and personal attacks. Mr THWAITES - I will address some of the The government's approach ignores the points the Treasurer raised. They demonstrate the fundamental issues that Mr Pescott yesterday raised need for proper time for the public to hear the truth in his resignation letter. about the prOvisions of the Audit (Amendment) Bill rather than having the bill rammed through. The Treasurer clearly demonstrated two things: Members such as the honourable member for firstly, the split in the Liberal Party over this issue; Doncaster have been intimidated. He has been told and secondly, that the people who run the Liberal to go out this morning and do the government's Party have decided the best approach is to bidding. This hypocrite claimed Mr Pescott had intimidate any Liberal backbencher who wants to made a 'grand, empty gesture'. stand up and object to the Auditor-General legislation. Mr Perton - On a point of order, Mr Acting Speaker, I accept most slurs from the other side with The Treasurer is doing the dirty work on Mr Pescott broad shoulders, but the word 'hypocrite' is so that others, like the honourable members for unparliamentary and I reject that suggestion. I will Frankston East, Doncaster, Bentleigh and answer that suggestion in a later speech, but I ask Mordialloc - who have real concerns about the you, Sir, to ask the honourable member to withdraw Auditor-General issue - do not take the same step that comment. as has Mr Pescott. The Treasurer's speech was directed clearly at intimidating members of The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! I uphold the Parliament and ensuring that no Liberal Party point of order. I require the honourable member to backbencher says what he or she thinks about the withdraw that comment. Audit (Amendment) Bill. The Treasurer's speech was extraordinary in its hypocrisy. Mr THWAITES - I am happy to withdraw that remark. The honourable member for Doncaster has Mr Rowe interjected. an interest in European history. I am sure his actions AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

1010 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 would have done Mr Quisling proud. He is the the legislation, took the right course. He was Mr Quisling of the Liberal Party. prepared to stand up and say he would not be part of a government that forces through legislation that Mr Perton - On a point of order, Mr Acting destroys the independence of the Auditor-General. Speaker, the name'quisling' refers to a collaborator with the Nazis. I ask the honourable member to By contrast, the honourable member for Doncaster withdraw that word. has one interest, and one interest only: his personal interest in winning preselection for a federal seat. The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - That is why he came out this morning and did the Order! The honourable member for Doncaster has government's bidding. He wants to get a few more found the remark offensive. I also understanding the numbers. I should have thought if the member was meaning of the word'quisling'. If it had been used so supportive of this type of legislation he would in relation -- want to stay in the house. He would not want to go elsewhere. He would want to back the government Mr THWAITES - I withdraw. Let us get on with and its legislation, but he will not do that. the debate! The incredible sense of -- If the honourable member for Doncaster contributes The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! I advise the to the debate, I ask that he give a clear commitment deputy leader not to be impertinent. If he wants to to the house that he is not seeking preselection take the Chair on, I shall accommodate him. elsewhere, that he is not leaving, that he is not running away and that he is not totally disgusted Mr THWAITES - We need time so the public with the antidemocratic legislation the government can learn the truth instead of the bill being rammed continues to put up. We should not concentrate only through in a climate of fear. They are the words used on the honourable member for Doncaster because by Mr Peseott and they are the words being used other members share an anatomical feature of the behind the scenes by members opposite: 'a climate of honourable member for Doncaster - that is, a fear'. Members opposite cannot stand up to the jellyback. We know who those members are. Premier. Most are gutless and are not prepared to come forward and fulfil their principles. When they The honourable member for Bentleigh was happy to do they get the message, 'Unless you toe the line, be reported in her local paper in an article headed you are out; your career is gone'. That is why 'MPs vote against Kennett' as strongly opposing the Mr Perton is going. He has had the temerity to cross legislation and being prepared to stand up to the the Premier's path in the past, and that is why he Premier. In marginal seats government members tell wants to get out of here. the voters who are totally opposed to the legislation that they are on their side. However, when it comes Mr Perton - On a point of order, Mr Acting to the crunch, when it comes to the vote, we know Speaker, I ask you to ask the Deputy Leader of the on which side of the fence the honourable member is Opposition to refer to members by their proper likely to sit. She will sit on the other side because she titles. I note that he referred to me rather than has been told to sit there, as has the honourable Mr Pescott. He could be a little more careful. member for Doncaster. Perhaps Hansard could reflect the fact that he meant 'Pescott' rather than 'Perton'. The honourable member for Mordialloc represents another marginal seat. He is described in the same The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! The debate is article as taking on the Premier. Where are those becoming trivial. I ask the Deputy Leader of the members today? Will they make a commitment to Opposition to bear in mind the rules of the place, stand up for their principles in the house today? No, which require that members address other members they will not because they have been intimidated. by their electorates. I hope the debate can proceed on They have heard from the Treasurer, the great a stronger footing than it has in the past few minutes. working-class hero, what is in store for them if they dare to stand up for their principles. The Treasurer's Mr THWAlTES - I am certainly not in any way family is happy to reap the benefits of office. His son confused about the difference between the is a working-class hero, occupying a clerical position honourable member for Doncaster and Mr Pescott. with the general workers. Where did he get that job? While their surnames bear some similarity, their The job is at the casino, Liberal Party headquarters. actions have been quite different. Mr Pescott, when he met with a moral issue regarding his attitude to AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1011

Other members opposite have not had the there being positive about Victoria? - which of opportunity to follow their conscience and make course he was not. He spent the 1980s wasting time peace with themselves. I say to those people, 'Urge and money on FOI applications that produced very the Premier to support the motion so you have some little, unlike the FOI applications made by the time to persuade your colleagues to change the party honourable member for Niddrie, me and other room decision'. In that way members opposite will opposition members. not have to suffer the vitriol Mr Pescott met with this moming. They will be able to persuade their I say to the honourable member for Doncaster: when colleagues to do the right thing, which they want to you get up today make a clear statement that you do. It is fair to say coalition backbenchers did not will be in this house up to the next election. You know the full import of the legislation. They were must guarantee that. We will then have some idea not told the truth. We now know from Mr Pescott that the honourable member for Doncaster backs the that the privatisation of Audit Victoria was not even legislation. If he fails to give that commitment put to members opposite. honourable members will know that he is out.

Mr Perton interjected. Mr GUDE (Minister for Education) - Today we have been treated to a litany of crocodile tears. lbis Mr THWAITES - The honourable member for is one of the opposition's more appalling Doncaster seems to indicate across the chamber that performances. I get to the stage where I ask myself: it was put. What is going on in the Liberal Party? is it possible that members of the opposition could One member says a key issue was put in the party actually do worse; could they possibly have a worse room and another says it was not. The whole saga day than the one they had yesterday or the day clearly demonstrates that the party is split. It before? I believe the opposition has actually demonstrates the first real cracks in party solidarity. achieved that goal yet again.

Would it not be amazing if we saw some Two weeks ago when the Premier delivered his independence from National Party members! Do second-reading speech on the Audit (Amendment) honourable members remember them? Do they still Bill and proposed that the debate be adjourned for exist? The National Party in my experience has two weeks, the opposition wanted a 100month shown only one demonstration of independence. deferment. Two-week adjournments are not new. Ironically, the honourable member for Murray The time frame set for the government business Valley stood against the honourable member for program is clear; it is well known to the opposition. Doncaster for chairmanship of the Scrutiny of Acts The manager of opposition business is well aware of and Regulations Committee. The result was that the the time frame, as indeed are the opposition honourable member for Murray Valley increased his spokespersons. vote at the next election, which shows that the honourable member for Doncaster's reputation is On three occasions this week the shadow Treasurer known not just in Doncaster, not just in the Liberal has been offered a briefing on this subject. What Party branches - which he is attending assiduously, happened? No appearance, Your Worship - no apparently - but also as far afield as Rutherglen appearance at all. On each and every occasion he has and Wangaratta and the good towns of Murray cancelled the opportunity for a briefing. I ask the Valley. The people there know that the honourable house or anybody who is paying any attention or member for Doncaster is this thing that we are not has an interest in this bill: do you really believe the allowed to call a quisling; he is this thing we are not party opposite has any interest in this legislation? allowed to call a hypocrite; he is this thing who is No! It is interested only in the political advantage it prepared to say at various meetings of human rights can extract. The polls and the last two elections organisations that he is the great champion of reveal the opposition is not good at extracting democracy. But when he is told by Liberal Party political advantage out of anything. Fancy relying headquarters to get on the radio and do the on the word of the Honourable Roger Pescott! government's bidding he does it immediately, just as he did on the issue of FOL lbis is the person who Opposition members interjecting. boasted about using FOI more than 400 times a year and who then turns around and says FOI is a 1970s Mr GUDE - When we debated the matter in the issue. Well, he was quite happy to use it in the 1980s. party room not a single member who wanted to Why wasn't it a 1970s issue then? Why wasn't he speak was denied the opportunity of contributing. backing the Cain government? Why wasn't he in Why is it that this man, who felt so affronted by the AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

1012 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 process that he had to resign from Parliament, did I make the point for the benefit of the house, for not speak? Why didn't he ask a question? Not a those who are not aware of it and for anybody who whimper, not a whisper, not a word was spoken. reads Hansard: if any member of the coalition, irrespective of the members of the specific Mr Thwaites interjected. committee that has carriage of a particular piece of legislation, feels strongly about a piece of legislation Mr GUDE - Have you done your button up? Do he or she has the right to attend those committee your shirt up. You are a grub! Mr Pescott did not meetings. Where was Mr Pescott then? offer a squeak or a whimper during the entire process. Yet he now seeks to maximise some Again, the shadow Treasurer had three publicity for himself just as he has been capable of opportunities this week. No appearance, Your many times in the past. His performance in this Worship; he never turned up once! Ibis is a man place when a minister -- who expresses great and righteous indignation but never fronted through the processes, and I place no Mr Hulls - Let's have a go at him! store in that behaviour. The government can be justly proud of how it has turned this state around Mr GUDE - There were no shortages of after a decade of maladministration by the previous occasions when this former minister did not want government. The Labor Party brought this state to its his bill to come on in the early hours of the morning; economic knees and destroyed the structure of when he wanted it to be guillotined at the end of the government. That course has been turned right week so he would not have to front the issues in the around. The government has made a strong and Parliament. That is the sort of person the opposition dedicated commitment, leadership driven by the relies on for the motion before the house today. Premier and the ministry -- Obviously the government will not be supporting the adjournment motion. The bill has had an Mr Thwaites - On a point of order, Mr Acting appropriate adjournment. There is a process for the Speaker, the minister seems to be completely off the development of change, and everybody in this place topic. I ask you to bring him back to the debate. knows that the government has embarked on a process of reviewing competition. It is part of the The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - I national commitment commenced by former Prime do not uphold the point the order. Minister Paul Keating in association with all states. The government is progressively going through all Mr GUDE - The fact is that there may well be a its competition legislation. And this area is no lot of interest in the debate. different from any other in that sense. Mr Thwaites - That is better. The Premier also commissioned an independent body to review the process and to give advice in the Mr GUDE - You like that? I am glad you are matter, which was done. There has also been a pleased. There may be a lot of interest in the debate process of consultation. The Liberal and National on the Audit (Amendment) Bill, just as there is party coalition forums have had the normal plethora interest in a number of bills that pass through this of committee meetings. Many honourable members Parliament. I imagine there will be some interest in took part in the process and made valuable the workers compensation legislation. contributions. The honourable member for Doncaster has been referred to in the course of An opposition member interjected. debate today; he is one of the many members to have made a valuable contribution and to have Mr GUDE - I will be voting with the effected change to the process of the legislation to government, as I always do. There is no doubt about come before the house next week. that, young man. Do not worry about that. No arms up backs for me. I am happy and proud to be part of The government is proud that as a party it has been the process of our party. I am also proud of the fact prepared to undergo that process and to allow it to that, recognising the strong mandate this have public scrutiny; it has put it through the correct government has in controlling both houses of channels of propriety of the coalition organisation, Parliament, it established the Scrutiny of Acts and as has been the case with all legislation. Regulations Committee. The honourable member for Doncaster did an excellent job chairing that committee. If it had not been for the work of the AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee when If the government is so confident that it is doing the the honourable member was the chairman, nobody right thing, it should welcome this opportunity to on the opposition side would have known a dam convince the people of Mitcham and the rest of the thing about a bill. They are too lazy, too tired and state of the merits of its position. It has not yet been too inept. They do not put any energy into working able to convince people in this state, nor people in out their position on legislation. That was other places such as the West Australian National epitomised again by the non-attendance of the Party MP and chairman of the West Australian honourable member for Williamstown at the three Public Accounts and Expenditure Review briefings offered this week. Committee - not a member known for his radicalism - who claims, as reported in the Today's debate is a sham, and the public knows it. Australian: Just when I thought I had seen the last lot of the crocodile tears, the flood comes again. The What the public must ask itself is in whose interest will government opposes the motion. private sector £inns audit - and do they have the necessary commitment, will and expertise in a highly Ms DAVIES (Gippsland West) - I support the complex public sector to deliver the same or a better motion of the opposition seeking to adjourn the level of service to the people of Victoria. debate until after the by-election in Mitcham. The debate on the Audit (Amendment) Bill has been You have not yet convinced people of that sort of intense, unprecedented and ongoing. Since 1992 conservative background. there have been many protests over the loss of democratic rights in this state. None has reached the Mr Finn - On a point of order, Mr Acting level of intensity of this particular debate. The Speaker, the honourable member for Gippsland resignation of the honourable member for Mitcham West has for the past couple of minutes been directly highlights the unprecedented nature of community disregarding a standing order requiring members to concern following the remarkable events that had address their comments through the Chair. She has already taken place before yesterday's been directing her comments across the chamber at announcement. I refer to the vote a few weeks ago at members of the government. I ask you to bring her the Liberal Party state conference where 97 per cent to order. of delegates voted against the proposed changes. I refer to the courageous contributions of the Speaker The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - The of this house and the President of the other place honourable member for Gippsland West is aware of who spoke out against the proposed changes. I refer the standing orders. I am sure she will observe them. to the criticisms and public debate from the backbench of the Liberal Party over this issue. All Ms DAVIES - I apologise. I have sat here and this is on top of the thousands of people who have listened to both the Treasurer and the Leader of the been involved in petitions, meetings, letters and House doing what is so absolutely predictable it has visits to their MPs expressing their concerns. Most of become completely boring. This arrogant and these events occurred before the government bullying Kennett government always reacts to introduced the bill, before we knew that the changes criticism with personal abuse. It abuses those who include privatising Audit Victoria. exercise their democratic rights to object to government policy by personal invective. I say to the The Leader of the House talked about the scrutiny, Treasurer, the Leader of the House and other discussion and debate that has already occurred on members, no matter which side of the house they are this issue. There had been no scrutiny on the issue of on, that personal abuse is a very poor form of privatising Audit Victoria because even the argument; it is no substitute for real debate. It is backbench of the Liberal Party did not know the bill nonsense and should be ignored. would go that far. So much for scrutiny and debate. I remind the government that it has an opportunity Thanks to the actions of one government member, in the Mitcham by-election to persuade by proper who has been prepared to draw a line in the sand, argument and debate the people of this state that its we have a real opportunity to ascertain the depth of Audit (Amendment) Bill does the right thing by the community feelings on this issue and others such as people of Victoria. I strongly believe we should hold the Workcover issue, providing an opportunity for off debate in this house on the bill until after the the government to argue and prove its case. Mitcham by-election. Let the people decide. AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Mr PERTON (Doncaster) - I share the concern Mr PERTON - The honourable member for Yan of the honourable member for Gippsland West Yean is laughing in his normal way. He shouts about the extraordinary level of vitriol exhibited in fascist slurs and the like across the chamber and then this debate. It is extraordinary that on a motion of has the temerity to take objection when members so-called high principle on the Audit (Amendment) return his insults. Bill and on the resignation of Roger Pescott, the honourable members for Niddrie and Albert Park Mr Haermeyer - On a point of order, both chose to devote at least half of their speeches to Mr Speaker, given the offence the honourable heaping personal vitriol on me. It is odd that the member for Doncaster took at being called a honourable member for Albert Park, who is now quisling, I take offence to his referring to me making smiling and grinning in his more usual fashion, fascist slurs. referred to me as a quisling and a hypocrite, when he was able to work with me on the Scrutiny of Acts The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! That would and Regulations Committee. seem to be something of a quid pro quo. The honourable member may care to withdraw. Ms Davies - On a point of order, Mr Speaker, I suggest the honourable member for Doncaster needs Mr PERTON - I shall. to be brought back to the motion. The ACTING SPEAKER - I would now like the The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - debate to be conducted at an adult level. The way it Order! There is no point of order. is going at the moment is quite silly.

Mr PERTON - The Labor Party has challenged Mr PERTON - Let me put this briefly and me personally, and I am answering that challenge. clearly. My conscience is clear, because members of My conscience is absolutely clear about the Audit my party are allowed to put views that are different (Amendment) Bill and other issues. The drafting of from those of the leader and the cabinet. Most of my the bill has been interesting. When the Maddock colleagues have spent endless hours considering the report was released my upper house colleague the bill. For instance, I met the Auditor-General face to Honourable Bill Forwood made clear his view that it face to discuss his concerns about the legislation. I did not reflect his thinking and was not acceptable to also sat down with representatives of Liberty him. Victoria to talk about the legislation.

The honourable member for Gippsland West rightly If the honourable member for Albert Park wanted an pointed out that the level of vitriol in the house objective assessment of the way I have conducted makes it almost impossible to conduct proper myself, he should have listened to Joseph O'Reilly of debates. The sorts of debates Labor Party members Liberty Victoria, who paid tribute to the backbench engage in make politics in this state almost members of the Liberal Party who had worked so impossible because they make decent discussions of hard on the bill. On the night it was introduced, one public policy almost impossible. of the senior members of the honourable member for Albert Park's own party approached me and Opposition members interjecting. congratulated me and the backbench on the way we had worked to modify the original The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! I will no recommendations of the Maddock report. longer tolerate the barrage of interjections coming from the opposition benches. An honourable member interjected.

Mr PERTON - The members on the other side Mr PERTON - I cannot speak to Labor Party are acting hypocritically in seeming to deny that members, because they do not listen, so I will they are part of a strongly disciplined party system explain the process to the constituency out there. In and a representative system of government. The the Liberal Party policy making starts with a difference between their party and mine is that if proposal from a committee like the Maddock there is a piece of legislation -- committee or from a federal ministerial council or the like. The proposal is then tested by one of the Mr Haermeyer interjected. party's bills committees. The honourable members for Mordialloc, Bulleen, Cranboume, Prahran, and Ballarat East, who are here in the chamber, all AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1015 contributed to the debate on the bill. I am not giving members of the government party. If we look at the away any party secrets when I say that amendments audit process and at the Audit (Amendment) Bill we to the legislation were moved in the bills committee, willsee-- when the Premier was present. Mr Haermeyer interjected. Our system allows a backbench member to move an amendment against the wishes of the leader of the Mr PERTON - The honourable member for Yan party. The honourable member for Niddrie ridiculed Yean says we cannot do that. He probably has not us, but only because in his party it is unusual for any even read the bill. He quotes the honourable member to be allowed to express dissent from a member for Mitcham as saying he did not see the policy position put by the leader and the shadow bill until three days after the party room vote. minister. In our party we can move amendments in bills committees. Colleagues are able to argue their I do not want to spend my time attacking the former cases in the presence of the Premier. He then puts honourable member for Mitcham, but had he his case to his colleagues, after which they make a bothered to attend the bills committee meetings, as judgment on the issues. The process is a damn good more than 30 of my colleagues did, he would have piece of democracy and results in good public been able to read the bill. If he had taken the trouble policy, and I hold my head high for having to express his concerns during the party debate, they contributed to it . would have been heard. If he had moved an amendment to the bill, it may well have got up. But Those matters then go to a party room meeting, the first time most of my colleagues heard that the where again many members speak on a variety of honourable member for Mitcham had any concerns issues - as they have done with the Audit about the bill was when he resigned yesterday. (Amendment) Bill. The bills that are introduced are the result of those democratic processes. In our Would members of the Labor Party accept that sort party, if a bill confounds the conscience of a of attack within their party? I see five members member, he or she is allowed to cross the floor. In opposite, none of whom were in the former Labor the Labor Party, crossing the floor means expulsion government. They did not experience the Labor from the party. Members of the opposition heap Party in government. I can remember the anger. I vitriol on their own people. They refer to Senator can remember the honourable member for Mal Colston, a former colleague of the honourable Springvale coming into this house and being member for Niddrie - perhaps they flew first class absolutely ashamed to have to vote for some of the together on occasions - as the quisling Quasimodo. legislation that was forced through his party by the That is the sort of abuse Labor Party members heap then Premier, John Cain or his successor, on those who dare express dissent from their party's Joan Kirner. Let us not forget that the Labor Party rules. took office on anti-casino and anti-gaming machine policies. Let us not forget it betrayed the people of The matter has been fully, properly and well argued Morwell. Let us not forget all its betrayals. It was not in our party. We have listened to the long after John Cain had his throat cut by members Auditor-General; and some of our colleagues, such of his party that Joan Kirner in absolute desperation as the honourable member for Sandringham, have reversed all the principles upon which the party had further researched the issues by talking to Liberty been elected and introduced the legislation for the Victoria, the churches and citizens. casino and gaming machines.

Mr Thwaites interjected. It is interesting to be on the receiving end of Labor Party attacks. I remember when the gaming machine Mr PERTON - The honourable member for legislation was brought into the house because I Albert Park continues to throw abuse at me, which I took the trouble to travel and to consult widely, find extraordinary. The honourable member worked including with the American gaming authorities and in a positive way with me on the Scrutiny of Acts others. I said in this house that the gaming machine and Regulations Committee. He never accused me of issue will lead to accusations of corruption. It will cowardice at that time. I find it odd that, with a lead to attempts by organised crime to infiltrate the smile on his face, he now throws such abuse at me. It system. shows that he is so desperate for office that he is prepared to throwaway his principles, throw truth Mr Cameron - On a point of order, out the door and launch personal attacks on Mr Acting Speaker, I ask you to bring the AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

1016 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 honourable member back to the motion. He appears Ms GARBUTI' (Bundoora) - I support the to have diverged widely off the mark. motion for a delay of the debate on the Audit (Amendment) Bill because I believe it needs The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - long and serious consideration by members of the Order! There is no point of order. government backbench. The stunning action by Roger Pescott should cause every member of the Mr PERTON - The extraordinary point is that government to re-examine his or her conscience and the honourable member who raised the point of position on the bill because Mr Pescott has revealed order happily and blissfully sat through the debate the true story behind the bill. It was a two-stage while vitriol was poured on government members. process. Firstly, a massive con took place. The facts When I respond to those accusations he suggests I and the bill were not presented to government am out of order. When I raised the issues associated members when they had to make their decisions. with gaming, members of the Labor Party told me I The second stage has continued today with the was out of my mind. They said I had no intimidation, bullying and vitriol being poured upon commonsense and did not understand the wishes the only person who dared to speak out and who and the needs of common people. I am proud to sit resigned to salve his conscience. Other honourable in this Parliament as a Liberal member. I am proud members should take particular notice and follow of the democratic tradition of the Liberal Party. I am his example. proud of the strength and courage of all my colleagues on the back benches or the front bench. I urge one member in particular to follow suit - When we have to debate matters of principle or that is, my neighbour, the honourable member for policy, we can do so within our party system. Eltham. I have particular knowledge of the views of his constituents and his views that I shall place on The honourable member for Essendon is laughing. record. His views are consistent with what was That is just like her party. When a decision is made, revealed by Mr Pescott yesterday. He is totally the members of the party bind themselves to vote confused and overcome by the smokescreen put together in Parliament because a representative over backbenchers by the government. I shall tell the system of democracy cannot operate without house about the views of the honourable member disciplined parties. The Canadian poet John written in letters to constituents who expressed Bengough said: some concern.

You cannot influence a political party to do right if you The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! The stick to it when it does wrong. honourable member should relate her remarks to the motion before the Chair. I believe she is straying That is obviously the personal judgment rather wide from it. Roger Peseott made. I think he was wrong. I think the way he has resigned has betrayed all his Ms GARBUTI' - I am urging the honourable colleagues because he did not stand up with us member for Eltham to reconsider his position and I when we were debating the issue. can explain that in the light of what the member for Mitcham said when he resigned yesterday. The An honourable member interjected. honourable member for Eltham in his letter about the Auditor-General's office says: Mr PERTON - Treachery is a good word. He did not work together with his party colleagues. I am pleased to read you agree that the When he resigned he attacked all of us. If the Auditor-General's office should not be excluded from honourable member for Essendon searches her soul, periodically being reviewed. I note you stop short in she will find that the same reaction of anger, saying, 'that if his office is not meeting the highest surprise and bitterness would have occurred in her possible performance standards, and there is party. My conscience is clear. As I look around the unnecessary wastage of public money, that the chamber at members of my party, I know their government has an obligation to take action to improve consciences are clear because they have worked this department on behalf of all Victorians'. within the democratic system unlike -- That was the sort of line that was run by the The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! The government for its backbenchers to get them to honourable member's time has expired. agree to this appalling bill. TIris was revealed in the letter from Mr Pescott to the Premier when he said: AUDITOR-GE~ERAL; INDEPENDENCE

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1017

You said too that the focus on the reforms had been an Ms GARBUTI - I was contrasting the position 'improved audit quality and information flows to of the former member for Mitcham and the Parliament' . honourable member for Eltham. I believe the government should delay the debate so that That is exactly what the honourable member for members like the honourable member for Eltham Eltham was implying in his letter. However, can reconsider their positions and read the bill. The Mr Pescott questioned that: honourable member for Eltham promised he would make his decision after he had seen the legislation. Has this been a problem? Why has evidence of this We know he and every other backbench member did alarming suggestion not been raised before? not read the bill before they were persuaded to support it. They bought a pig in a poke! They had Unfortunately, the honourable member for Eltham not seen it! They were conned and now they are fell for that line and he is peddling this line to his being threatened and intimidated into continuing constituents. There are more mistakes and matters that position. Ideally, the honourable member for on which he is plainly wrong. He says: Eltham should also resign and let his constituents have the final say. You should also understand that it was the present Auditor-General and his lack of accountability under House divided on motion: the current system that failed to detect the $300 million plus blow-out in the superannuation liability to local Ayes, 26 govemment- Andrianopoulos, Mr Hulls,Mr Batchelor, Mr Kosky,Ms Listen to this - Bracks, Mr Langdon, Mr (Teller) Cameron, Mr (Teller) Leighton, Mr and gave a clean bill of health to the Intergraph system, Campbell,Ms lim,Mr affecting emergency services over the last couple of Carli,Mr Maddigan, Mrs (Teller) years even though this service is now subject to a police Cole,Mr Micallef,Mr investigation. Cwmingham, Mr Mildenhall, Mr Davies,Ms Pandazopoulos, Mr What rubbish! A month later in the daily Dollis, Mr Savage,Mr newspapers the honourable member for Eltham Garbutt, Ms Seitz, Mr makes this promise: Gillett, Ms Thwaites, Mr Haermeyer, Mr Wilson,Mrs Another backbencher, Eltham's Mr Wayne Phillips -- Noes, 48 Andrighetto, Mr McLellan, Mr Mr W. D. McGrath - On a point of order, Mr Ashley,Mr McNarnara, Mr Acting Speaker, the honourable member for Burke, Ms (Teller) Maughan,Mr Bundoora seems to be focusing very heavily on the Clark,Mr Napthine, Or honourable member for Eltham, who was not Coleman,Mr Paterson, Mr mentioned in any form in this motion. The motion is Cooper, Mr Perrin, Mr about the Auditor-General and also about the former Dean,Or Perton,Mr member for Mitcham, Roger Pescott. The Dixon,Mr Peulich, Mrs honourable member for Bundoora has continually Doyle,Mr Phillips,Mr referred to the honourable member for Eltham and I Elder, Mr Plowman, Mr A.F. ask that you, Mr Acting Speaker, ask that she refrain Elliott, Mrs Reynolds, Mr from continuing to read press reports of what the Finn,Mr Rowe,Mr honourable member for Eltham has said both in Gude,Mr Shardey, Mrs public and in Parliament. Jasper, Mr Smith, Mr E.R (Teller) jenkins, Mr Smith, Mr I. W. The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - John,Mr Spry,Mr Order! I have already mentioned to the honourable Kilgour, Mr (Teller) Steggall, Mr member for Bundoora that I believe she is straying Lean,Mr Stockdale, Mr from the motion. In the minute remaining I ask her Leigh,Mr Tehan,Mrs to return to it. Lupton,Mr Thompson, Mr McArthur, Mr Traynor,Mr TERTIARY EDUCATION: CREDIT TRANSFERS

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McCall,Ms Treasure, Mr of that institution I had the opportunity to put my point McGill,Mrs Wade,Mrs of view. The rules of the Australian Labor Party include McGrath, Mr W.D. Wells,Mr an obligation to support the position of the majority determined by a free vote. Caucus supported every Motion negatived. piece of legislation discussed in this talk ...

TERTIARY EDUCATION: CREDIT A member of the party room who in spite of his or her TRANSFERS advocacy in support of a human right fails to win a majority of his or her colleagues to his or her point of Mr THOMPSON (Sandringham) - I move: view should accept the decision adverse to his or her stance. Otherwise he or she is acting contrary to the will That this house commends the government and the of the electorate which he or she purports to represent. Minister for Tertiary Education and Training for Further he or she may be placing strain on a system of fostering cooperation between schools, TAPE institutes, government which most voters in Australia clearly private providers and universities to maximise credit endorse. If he or she feels so strongly about a matter transfer and course articulation arrangements, so that that he or she cannot accord with the decision of the students can move from one sector to another with party room, he or she should probably resign. recognition for previous study. Those words were uttered by Senator Barney The focus of the motion is to commend the Cooney, a champion of the Labor Party, when he government and the Minister for Tertiary Education stated the principle of party government - one in, and Training on the merits of credit transfer and all in - that people who contribute in the party course articulation between educational institutes. room must abide by the party decision, or should Today the house has already heard copious resign. quantities of coarse articulations as distinct from details of course articulation! However, I shall make The moral high ground has been taken by a number relevant remarks about credit transfers and the of opposition members. The honourable member for recent achievements of the Victorian government in Niddrie spoke about backbone and jellybacks. It the tertiary education sector. could be said that today he has put himself in the ID-yard square and has lifted off the ground, calling At the 1994 Sir Robert Garran memorial oration a for the ball in a game where the opposition is particular speaker said: advancing and trying to hold the high moral ground. On one flank he may have the Pledge Government has traditionally been seen as a provider faction, perhaps the Centre Unity faction down the of services. Today government can also be about middle and the Socialist Left faction is operating on purchasing services on behalf of its clients and it will the other flank. look increasingly to buy from the most efficient supplier, whether from within the public sector or Mr Mildenhall- On a point of order, Mr Acting externally. As our experience with contracting ... grows, Speaker, as tempting as it must have been for every there is likely to be continuing pressure to extend government member to become involved in the contestability within the public sector as a device to previous debate, this motion is reasonably specific improve efficiency and, at the least, maintain the and deals with credit transfers between TAPE effectiveness and client focus of program delivery. courses and secondary education. At the moment the honourable member is not within a bull's roar of Who spoke those words? Was it the Prime Minister that subject. or the Premier? No, it was none other than the present leader of the federal Labor Party, Kim The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - Beazley. Comments were made in debate earlier Order! I uphold the point of order and ask the today about positions of principle, about debating honourable member for Sandringham to return to issues that matter, and the appropriate forums for the motion. debate. I refer to a speech given on the issue of human rights and party politics: Mr THOMPSON - It may be said that I was providing the opportunity for the shadow minister The stance a party takes on a particular issue is for education and training to speak on education detexmined by a process which includes consideration matters. I welcome his interruption to the debate. of it in caucus or in an equivalent body. As a member Significant issues at stake concern questions of TERTIARY EDUCATION: CREDIT TRANSFERS

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1019 philosophy. I earlier quoted Kim Beazley; he asked whether the opposition will uphold principles in the who was best able to provide courses - the development of its own policy position. government or the private sectors. The purchaser-provider split that emanates in part from The specific measures in the motion relate to a the Hilmer reforms is also germane to the role of, for commendation of the government and the Minister example, the Auditor-General and to the tertiary for Tertiary Education and Training for fostering education sector. cooperation between schools, technical and further education institutes, private providers and I issue the challenge: the honourable member for universities to maximise credit transfer and course Niddrie is leaping for the ball on high moral articulation arrangements so students can move grounds, but as to the definition of the party policy from one sector to another with recognition for or platform we have seen a number of members of previous study. the Labor Party call for a review of its party platform, to take the word 'socialisation' out of its Simply expressed, this basically means that there is policy. lhis aspect is relevant to tertiary education an opportunity for people, no matter what their because it relates to which sector of the community educational backgrounds or where they have is best able to provide the service: is it the studied in the past, to gain recognition for units of government or private providers, or an amalgam of study they may have done so they can move freely the two? from the TAFE sector to the university sector; from the university sector to the TAFE sector; or from one I am uncertain whether the honourable member for area to another within the TAFE sector. They can Niddrie, as he lifts off the ground, is on the back of a then gain concrete recognition for units of study horse, as the Treasurer said, or whether, as a former previously undertaken. That will serve to advance key back man and ruckman, he has a good spring. the cause of learning. Nevertheless, on the question of policy the fact remains that Bill Hayden said he renounced The former vice-chancellor of Monash University democratic socialism years ago. was Professor Lance Endersbee. He had his early education at the then Preston Technical College. He Mr Mildenhall interjected. later worked in the Tasmanian hydro-electric scheme and became the dean of the engineering Mr THOMPSON - The honourable member for faculty at Monash University and, later, as the Footscray has alluded to the fact that the former vice-chancellor there, with a specific responsibility to Leader of the federal Labor Party is now a see what could be done to foster cooperation monarchist. I had not quite followed that transition, between university and industry research. but I am pleased to note that; I am sure the Prime Minister would also be pleased to note that Professor Endersbee's own background is a perfect comment. It may be that other members of the Labor example of the merits of there being fluency of Party will make that transition as they renounce transfer between one sector and another. He started democratic socialism. in the technical area and moved to university research. Every opportunity should be made Nevertheless, the position is not dear from their available to facilitate people like him who have platform. If they are to advance the high moral made a magnificent contribution to academic, ground on the Auditor-General and other issues, it educational and engineering developments in must be established that they have their own house Australia. in order and that their policies are clearly established as to whether socialism remains part of their In his retirement one of the professor's projects has platform. I look forward to further developments at been to establish the train link between Melbourne their various state conferences to ascertain whether and Darwin; the train would travel through the opposition members take the initiative and the lead Riverina and the food baskets of south-east Australia or adopt the urgings of the Leader of the Opposition, to carry fresh produce to Darwin. He is an the honourable member for Dandenong and other innovative thinker who has made a significant members of the party; whether the honourable contribution to the educational sector. member for Niddrie will likewise display the same spirit or backbone that he asked government It is also important to note that if Australia is to members to display or adopt earlier today; and maintain its longer term competitive position in the educational sector, we cannot afford to improve at a TERTIARY EDUCATION: CREDIT TRANSFERS

1020 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 rate equal to that of our competitors. We must in mind innovations such as those Victoria has been improve at a faster rate if we are to make any proud to host, sponsor and participate in over the long-term progress. I congratulate the Minister for years. He has in mind people such as Hugh Victor Tertiary Education and Training on initiating a McKay, who founded the Sunshine Harvester report titled Demand for Tertiary Studies in Science and company, which started out in Ballarat. Hugh Technology, which contains a number of revealing McKay developed an innovative machine that was indications. I quote from the summary of findings able to reap, winnow and furrow in a way that no on page 3: other machine had been able to beforehand. The company developed to the stage where it was Postgraduate numbers in engineering have declined advantageous to shift from the Ballarat-Bendigo significantly despite an overall increase in postgraduate region to Sunshine, which was named after his studies in higher education as a whole ... combine harvester company. He employed some 3000 people. Demand for science and engineering studies in TAFE through the Victorian tertiary admissions system has Mr Mildenhall interjected. declined. While the number of contact hours and enrolments in these fields has been maintained, science Mr THOMPSON - The honourable member for and engineering have declined as a proportion of total Footscray points out that the company was sited in provision in the TAPE sector ... his electorate, although I thought it was in the electorate of the honourable member for Sunshine. The final comment I draw on states: The tragedy is that if one travels to the electorate of Footscray today, one finds only rusty reminders of a In comparison with other countries - once great company which employed 3000 Victorians in the manufacturing sector, which our competitors - was based on Australian innovation and design and issues which are strongly supported by the Australian participation in studies in physical sciences honourable member for Bellarine. Unfortunately, it and engineering is low, and the proportion of students reached the stage where it was no longer able to progressing to postgraduate studies in science and compete effectively. engineering is also relatively low ... Let us remember the work of people like Lance The countries we are competing against have higher Endersbee, who worked his own way through the uptakes than Australia in the important areas of tertiary education sector prior to the facilitation of science and engineering. Therefore, anything that portability arrangements. I am sure that in moving can be done to increase opportunities for Victorian from one level to another he would have had to students as they enter higher education should be repeat certain subjects and units. In fulfilling an done. That could be done from a vocational important election policy, the Victorian government education and training perspective, with students has aimed to facilitate course articulation and credit studying four days a week in school and spending transfers between different sectors of learning. one day in the workplace in a range of fields. It could be done by giving people in the adult, In commenting on the wider issues, I will refer to community and further education area the Uberal Party policy on those issues. At the last state opportunity to improve their literacy and numeracy election the Victorian government committed itself skills or to undertake general studies courses to to: access vocational education and training in the TAFE sector. It could also be done by giving expand dual recognition programs in the school sector students the opportunity to access tertiary places to giving priority to widening curriculum options, with develop their skills. It is important that Australia has new programs in desktop publishing, small business, as many students as possible in those sectors building studies, multimedia and - because they drive the level of research and the longer term competitiveness of the Australian a important area - community. textiles manufacturing ... I am aware that the honourable member for Bellarine has for a long time been advocating the HistOrically, Australia has had a competitive need for the state to have a long-term vision. He has advantage in primary production. 'This country TERTIARY EDUCATION: CREDIT TRANSFERS

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1021

produces some of the best wool in the world. The The largest ever group of Australian tertiary education tragedy is that, instead of it being scoured, cleaned leaders returned to Victoria from South-East Asia in and processed in Geelong, close to the source of April, hailing their visit as 'a highly visible and positive supply, our wool is shipped to Italy and Germany influence in mutual understanding' with educational for processmg - and the final product is then sent leaders and institutions in the region. back to Australia. Led by the Minister for Tertiary Education and Members representing the Geelong area are doing Training, Mr Phi! Honeywood, about 40 executives excellent work on a proposal to develop an ongoing from Victoria's 22 TAFE institutes, 9 universities, some study of the textile industry so the state can make private training providers and the Department of better use of textile processing, thereby providing Education travelled to Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore opportunities for young Victorians in vocational and Vietnam for 10 days to promote Victoria's tertiary education and training, apprenticeships and the like. education sector. It could enable them to develop a pride in their workplaces and a pride in the contributions they The minister noted: make, as well as giving them the prospect of building a future for themselves and their families. Victoria's reputation for excellence in education is known throughout South-East Asia, and this mission I mention two other Victorian coalition initiatives has enhanced our ties with the region and showcased that were put forward at the last election. They were the best we have to offer. to: Mr Mildenhall- Is he still away? place a strong emphasis on fleximode delivery systems for institutes of T AFE, combining conventional Mr THOMPSON - The honourable member for teaching methods with new and differing training Footscray is making a magnificent contribution to approaches; the debate! As part of an ongoing focus on promoting Victorian educational institutions to the upgrade the network of computers in the TAFE wide world, the minister has just been overseas seeking area network (Vetnet) linking all institutes, the Office of further opportunities to enable Victoria to do what it Training and Further Education and the Victorian does best - that is, provide outstanding educational Tertiary Admissions Centre for on-line teaching and opportunities which in turn will serve the region, curriculum purposes ... facilitate the flow of overseas students coming to Victoria, facilitate the establishment of Victorian Those important policy initiatives included a institutes overseas and improve the intellectual commitment to: capital of both South-East Asia and Victoria and, therefore, the wealth base of the state. enable providers of adult, community and further education to bid for capital works funds for the I commend the honourable member for Footscray on purpose of obtaining funding for equipment and a further magnificent contribution by asking what building maintenance; the minister is doing and thereby enabling my response that the minister, who is fluent in over the next four years, spend $100 million on a Japanese - perhaps one of only two members of program of construction and refurbishment of TAFE Parliament in Australia who has studied Japanese­ buildings and facilities; is in an outstanding position to place Victoria at the forefront of tertiary education in the medium and consider the feasibility of establishing two Victorian long term. TAFE campuses in South-East Asia, owned and operated by Victoria's TAFE institutes, to foster and Through the important contribution of the minister, develop TAFE commercial operations in overseas the Victorian government has contributed in a range markets. of other areas in the tertiary education sector. In a ministerial statement entitled 'Managing Earlier this year a State Training Board publication Diversity - Promoting equity and access across the entitled Trainingfor Growth contained an article state training system', in November 1996 the headed 'Success for Tertiary Education Mission to minister spoke of managing diverSity. He said: South-East Asia', from which I quote: TERTIARY EDUCATION: CREDIT TRANSFERS

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Managing diversity is about implementation of opportunity to find a centre of study that is of vocational and further education polides, practices and benefit to them. Another fine initiative by the services that deliver specific outcomes. These outcomes minister is the establishment of the Swinburne are intended to optimise the opportunity for University of Technology campus at Ulydale. I think individuals to fulfil their aspirations to partidpate in I am correct in saying the minister is a former if not and contribute more productively to sodety current member of the Swinburne University board irrespective of gender, culture, age, location or whether and council. The Victoria University of Technology they have a disability or disadvantage. campus has been established at Sunbury on the old Caloola site. The honourable member for That is highly reflective of what is taking place in the Tullamarine, Bernie Finn, had a pivotal role in tertiary sector today. The Sandy Beach Community converting a formerly run-down institution into a Centre runs a number of adult, community and tertiary campus. It will provide opportunities for further education courses and courses for the people in the west to further their study and disadvantaged and disabled. They range from an training. In that case the honourable member for introduction to Australian society to gardening and Tullamarine made the point to his local constituency general communications. As part of the adult, that thousands of people had been involved in the community and further education process one of the establishment of the new university and 'the glory of teachers, Margie Thomas, runs a gardening course it belongs to us all'. He has done a tremendous job for people with intellectual disabilities. She does an representing his constituency. Then there is the excellent job and in that process she is able to bring establishment of the La trobe University centre at on other people, such as Geoff Echberg, a respected Shepparton. local resident who found lucerne on an industrial site. His initiative has enabled a proportion of that Mr Hulls interjected. lucerne to be transported to Gippsland to feed cattle that are without a good source of food stock. It is Mr THOMPSON - The honourable member for through the focused opportunity of continuing Niddrie interjects, but the people of Tullamarine education that people are able to develop further made no mistake at the last state election about skills and return something to the local community. whom they favoured at the ballot box. One of the They are just a couple of examples in the local area. champions of the Labor Party in years gone by, Another teacher, Patricia Ward, runs an introduction David White, ran and history went against him. The to Australian society course. A number of people people in that electorate delight in the vigorous who have arrived in Australia from South-East Asia work and enthusiasm of the honourable member for and eastern Europe in recent times have weak Tullamarine. language skills but they have a strong desire to contribute to the society in which they now reside. Education in country Victoria has benefited by the The course gives them the opportunity to familiarise establishment of the La Trobe University campus at themselves with the local political process and Shepparton, the merger of the La Trobe University opportunities in industry and employment and College of Northern Victoria in Bendigo with allows them to generally improve their language La Trobe University and the establishment of the skills. University of Ballarat - another great initiative. Ballarat has been earmarked as a centre of excellence The honourable member for Footscray may be in computer education in Victoria. interested in some further amendments and improvements in the tertiary education sector. Mr Hulls interjected. Although the Minister for Tertiary Education and Training is not in the chamber now, I assure the Mr THOMPSON - Again the honourable honourable member for Footscray that he will be member for Niddrie interjects. There are only here this afternoon. A range of other tertiary 15 minutes remaining and we are only halfway education initiatives have been undertaken in through the first quarter. Earlier today he stood in Victoria. They include the establishment of the the IQ-yard square and leapt for the high moral Monash University campus at Berwick, which may ground. I look forward to his response to the not be of great benefit to the people who live in the amendment to Labor policy. I also look forward to western suburbs but it is of immense benefit to his contribution because he has gone for the hard people living in the south-east of Melbourne and ball- the big grab! Victoria. People in Narre Warren, Cranbourne, Drouin, Warragul and Gippsland will have the TERTIARY EDUCATION: CREDIT TRANSFERS

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1023

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - Mr THOMPSON - The honourable member for Order! the honourable member for Sandringham on Niddrie has suggested the Sandringham Secondary the motion before the Chair. College is a good college, and I am delighted to support that suggestion. I know a number of staff Mr THOMPSON - I thought the honourable who have served the local community assiduously member for Niddrie would appreciate the references over the past years. Charles Slucki was the 1995 to his football prowess in the past. Victorian teacher of the year; he had been involved in a program at a local school catering for the Mr Hulls - I never dropped the ball then, either! intellectually disabled - and there are not many people in the community with 20 years service in Mr THOMPSON - This will be his crucial test. developing such constructive programs. He has the Socialist Left coming at him from one flank; and there might be an almighty shirt front A number of teachers in the local area have played coming his way in the not-too-distant future. outstanding roles. Not only that, there is a close linkage with school council representatives who Some $120 million has been allocated over five years have an active role in local industry. Sir Robert to provide 4597 commencing places in the making Blackwood, after whom the Blackwood Hall at places initiative. Some 12564 total student places Monash University was named and formerly the were instituted from 1993 to 1997, and there have CEO of Dunlop, served on the Sandringham been more tertiary education and training Technical School council for many years providing a achievements over the past few years, such as constructive interface between industry and the voluntary student unionism in tertiary institutions, secondary sector. the introduction of legislation to approve the private establishment of the Australian National Academy The Minister for Tertiary Education and Training of Music in cooperation with the University of has made some important contributions in the TAFE Melbourne. The Geelong wool stores campus at sector by introducing to tertiary sector boards a Deakin University is another initiative. Along with range of private sector expertise. Graeme Bond, who the incorporation of TAPE admission practices and serves on the Barton board, is an excellent example. processes into VT AC has been the Victorian He works with a local Sandringham-based government's special funding of $2.5 million for company, Ronstan, which makes an innovative multimedia developments at the Victorian College range of sailing products. It is a model Australian of the Arts and the establishment of the Australian company which, in recent years, had a number of Food Industry Science Centre, a joint venture difficulties and has been taken over several times, involving Agriculture and Resources, the corporate but is currently employing apprOximately sector, Melbourne RMIT and VVT. Export and 135 people. It has a sheltered workshop base where, educational services have expanded and the number on a daily basis, eight people come in to help with of fee-paying students in our universities has packing. Some 60 per cent of the company's increased by 50 per cent, from 10 276 in 1992 to production is sold overseas, contributing 40 per cent 15311 in 1995. I repeat: in the past five years there to its revenue base. Other businessmen like Mr Bond has been a 50 per cent increase in the number of have the pioneering spirit. They are involved in overseas students coming to Victoria to access manufacturing and in developing overseas markets. excellent courses. That highlights the reputation that At the same time they have input into local Victorian education has in the South-East Asian educational institutions and the development of sector and further supports the reason the Minister good course curriculums. for Tertiary Education and Training is overseas advancing government links with South-East Asian In 1993 Sandringham Secondary College became sectors, be it Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia or other part of a pilot course that has developed into a areas. comprehensive vocational education and training program. According to the Sandringham Secondary I shall refer to the important contribution made by College guide, VET aims to promote an awareness of the Sandringham Secondary College to vocational the world of work, to develop employment-related education and training in this sector. It was one of key competencies, to develop general vocational the first schools in Victoria -- competencies that are relevant to a family of industries of occupations and to provide instruction Mr Hulls interjected. in specific competencies that meet the requirements of a particular industry. These courses are available TERTIARY EDUCATION: CREDIT TRANSFERS

1024 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 to students in Years 11 and 12 who might spend four The importance of research for Australia's longer days a week at school and one day in industry. term competitiveness cannot be underestimated. For example, the University of Melbourne has recently Members of the opposition might inquire what fields undertaken outstanding research programs, are covered by these training programs. They including the first trials in humans of an insulin include hospitality, horticulture, building, business, aerosol spray directly into the respiratory tract to automotive industries, hairdressing, design, science block the onset of insulin-dependent diabetes. A and child care. In 1996 and 1997 programs were Professor Paul Zimmet heads the Diabetes Institute expanded to include electronics and engineering. of Australia and has undertaken some pioneering Last year I had the privilege of speaking at the world research into the causes and treatment of presentation of awards for young students involved diabetes. That particular work is at one end of the in the process. Several students told me how much spectrum where Victoria is an international market they enjoyed their involvement and how it gave leader. their classroom work greater relevance. It gave them an understanding that their school learning will be According to the 1997 research annual report of the relevant in years to come. VET gives students a University of Melbourne a number of developments competitive edge in the future as they seek have taken place including the identification of the employment in the workplace, because they first known gene for epilepsy offering prospects of understand the workplace and develop basic improved treatment; a diagnostic-imaging technique workplace skills. based on the tiny refractions of hard X-rays as they pass through different materials; a major report on a The Pathways course has a range of definitions I will DEET -funded primary science teaching project, part briefly outline. Pathways refers to the movement of of an initiative to upgrade primary teachers' individuals through the education and training knowledge and skills in teaching science; a fire sectors. A number of government publications have retardant applied directly to finished solid wood or been prepared to assist young students in deciding wood-based panels without causing swelling or loss on future courses of study. Linkages, which are of strength; the cloning of key grass pollen allergens referred to as 'articulation', exist between differing and associated patents related to their commercial levels of qualification in various fields of training. production; and a raft of other important reforms. For example, in hospitality, certificates 1, 2, 3 and 4 have a sequential relevance leading on to a diploma Reforms in the tertiary education sector, in and advanced diploma in hospitality. That allows vocational education and training, in support given students to progress through the nest of to schools to develop courses in concert with T AFE qualifications without having to repeat areas of institutes, in support given to facilitate vocational study. community and further education, and encouragement for universities to develop Pathways also provides an opportunity for multi-campus synergies with the TAFE sector, are all transition from vocational education and training part and parcel of the longer term objective of into the TAFE sector, and from the TAFE sector into assisting Victoria to develop a stronger competitive the university sector. I know of a number of specific role in the future. examples where students have started their education in the TAFE sector, performed well and The government has over the past few years been obtained outstanding results. They have then been committed to excellence in education. It has had a able to use that base to move into the tertiary sector. strong commitment to multiculturalism, local Some 29 per cent of all university places are now government and workplace reform, prOviding taken by people with TAFE backgrounds. opportunities for the development of industry and Conversely, people from the tertiary sector, having the prospect of highly trained graduates entering the undertaken theoretical realms of study at university, workplace. have gone back to develop specific vocational skills. Perhaps having completed an arts degree, a Debate interrupted pursuant to sessional orders. university student wishes to develop practical work-based experience in computer studies, word Sitting suspended 1.00 p.m. until 2.05 p.m. processing, database management and spreadsheet work, facilities provided by the TAFE sector. DISTINGUISHED VISITORS

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1025

DISTINGUISHED VISITORS The SPEAKER - Order! As I recall it, the Leader of the Opposition asked the Premier if he would The SPEAKER - Order! Before calling questions consult with liberal Party branches and members of without notice, I welcome a Vietnamese delegation the public before making a decision on the accompanied by a former Speaker, Or Ken Coghill. parliamentary discussion on a bill. The delegation, which is seated in the Speaker's gallery, is led by a senior member of the Vietnamese Mr KENNETI - I have consulted widely with assembly, Mr Le Duc Binh. We welcome you, members of the liberal Party, with members of the gentlemen. community, and with the Auditor-General. The honourable member for Williamstown has asked for a briefing three times. I have offered to make that briefing available to him, but three times the QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE honourable member for Williamstown has cancelled the appointment. The Leader of the Opposition asked about consultation. We are certainly prepared Auditor-General: independence to consult, but I have to say we will continue that consultation in this chamber when the bill comes up Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I for debate. refer the Premier to the fact that liberal Party branches right across the state, including Mitcham, Mr Brumby interjected. are opposed to the proposed changes to the role of the Auditor-General. Will the Premier give the Mr KENNETI - I am sorry if the Leader of the Parliament an undertaking that he will publicly Opposition does not consider his contribution to be consult with liberal Party members and members of worth while. However, we would agree with that --.: the public in Mitcham on the Auditor-General's we have long agreed with it - as does the majority legislation prior to it being debated by Parliament? of the public. The legislation will proceed, and I have no doubt it will be dealt with by this chamber Mr KENNETI (Premier) - I welcome the Leader and the other chamber in the normal manner. of the Opposition back. I must admit that when I turned on my television last night I found it Latrobe Valley: employment extraordinary to see the Leader of the Opposition championing Roger Peseott considering all the Mr ANDRIGHETIO (Narracan) - Will the things he used to say when Mr Pescott was a Premier advise the house of the progress in creating member of this place. With the change of jobs through attracting new investment to the circumstances, I thought to myself, 'What great Latrobe Valley? hypocrisy'. Mr KENNETI (Premier) -It is interesting to I will tell you what I will do about whether I have an note that while the other side gets excited about inquiry or more consultation. If the Leader of the trivia we just get on with the job of producing and Opposition is prepared to have an inquiry into delivering good government for the people of complaints of branch stacking and the lack of loyalty Victoria. This morning I was down at Morwell. shown to those on the backbench of the Labor Together with one of the members for Gippsland Party-- Province in another place, Mr Peter Hall, I opened a new facility provided by Thomas Clark Timber. It is Honourable members interjecting. in one of the many vacated SEC units. They have created-- The SPEAKER - Order! The administration of Labor Party branches has nothing to do with Mr Thwaites - Unemployment is 18.3 per cent. government administration. Are you proud of that?

Mr KENNETT - Nor, Mr Speaker, does the Mr KENNE1T - You would rather the facility administration of Liberal Party branches, which you did not happen; is that what you are saying? obviously failed to pick up earlier. Mr Thwaites - You have thrown thousands of Honourable members interjecting. people out of work, though. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

1026 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997

Mr Brumby interjected. Auditor-General: independence

Mr KENNETI - Here we have a new facility Mr BRUMBY

It is also interesting that the land on which the Mr BRUMBY - If the choice were between timber is growing is in the Strzelecki Ranges. Roger and you, we'd believe Roger! Although that land was cleared between the 1880s and early 19OOs, it proved unsuccessful for farming. The SPEAKER - Order! The Leader of the It was replanted with Victorian ash, which will now Opposition will address the Chair. provide a sustainable capacity to harvest about 100 000 cubic metres for many years to come. 1bis is Mr BRUMBY - Will the Premier now admit that a wonderful opportunity for the people of Morwell. he deceived the party room to get the It uses one of our best resources - timber. Auditor-General's legislation through and that all government members should now be allowed We recognise that the Latrobe Valley, and Morwell conscience votes on the Auditor-General legislation? in particular, has undergone a great deal of change over the past few years with the restructuring of the The SPEAKER - Order! The first part of the SEC, which was begun by the Labor government question is out of order but the second part is with the privatisation of Mission Energy. It then acceptable. contracted out the electricity work to Siemens and the transport work to Linfox. That began the Mr KENNETI (Premier) - The honourable fundamental changes in the SEC and in the valley. member has had a whole week off. You would have thought he would have used that time productively Since my government's election, we have been doing to come up with an original question. If it were not what we can to attract new investment into the for the government or the Age the poor Leader of the valley. I am happy to say that National Foods has Opposition would have no question to ask invested a further $65 million in Morwell which has whatsoever! created an extra 133 jobs. Yalloum Energy at the Maryvale coalfield has announced it will be I do not believe anyone in Parliament or outside spending $200 million over the next few years to would take seriously the words uttered by any expand its facilities. Amcor at Maryvale will spend member who does not participate in debate on the $330 million on a new paper machine that will create subject under question. There was an individual an extra 250 jobs. who had the opportunity to speak in our party room, who had the opportunity to speak here and Those things do not just happen. They happen who had the opportunity to attend committee because of the relationship between the economic meetings, but not once did he do so. If that environment in this state partly provided by the individual is not prepared to be honest with the government and partly in conjunction with the facts, I can only suggest that the Leader of the private sector. I am happy to say that the ongoing Opposition, as he grasps at straws as he has been work in the valley is showing promising signs of doing consistently, is missing the point of the debate attracting more employment opportunities in the in this place and outside. years to come. We will continue to do what we can to lift the level of employment while we continue to All members on my side of politics - I am sure focus on delivering dividends to this community as probably a few of those on your side who were a result of the changes that have been in place since consulted on this issue and other issues in terms of we came into office in 1992. preselection deals and votes in the next election - have been involved in the total debate from the QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1027 moment it was initiated. However, there was one are three aspects of the Victorian economy that stick who made no contribution whatsoever. He decided in the craw of the opposition. to jump ship. That is his choice. We wish him well in whatever he decides to do for the rest of his life. Workcover: litigation manager

City Link: transponders Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - I refer the Treasurer to the fact that at a Workcover mediation Mr McARTHUR (Monbulk) - Will the Minister session on Thursday, 6 November, agreement was for Planning and Local Government advise the reached on the claim of Mr Gordon Simjanovski, house about the awarding of a contract for the who lost pieces of his feet in an industrial accident. supply of transponders for the tolling system for the However, his case could not be settled because the City Link project? Workcover litigation manager, Mr Dick Wright, was not available to sign the mediation settlement as Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and prearranged. Will the Treasurer now investigate Local Government) - The Combitech Traffic why Mr Wright was sipping champagne with other Systems, which is associated with the Swedish firm Victorian Workcover Authority fat cats at the Oaks Saab, has awarded a $15 million contract to NEC in Day race meeting when he should have kept his Melbourne to produce transponders. The City Link appointment to sign off on the contract for this project is the first in the world to be exclusively injured worker? based upon electronic tolling - that is, no slow down, no need to change lanes, no cash and change Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - I will return, but on a prepaid transponder basis. That communicate the question to the minister and system collects the tolls from vehicles travelling at provide the honourable member with an answer. highway speed, which is critical. The savings for commercial traffic are based on the ability of that Australian Education Union: industrial traffic to keep flowing and not be interrupted by action direct tolling or toll gates. MI5 PEULICH (Bentleigh) - I ask the Minister The proposal is for some 600 000 transponders, for Education to inform the house of the which will ultimately be assembled in Melbourne, to government's response to today's industrial action be distributed to motorists. The first group will be by the Australian Education Union. tested through to February 1998 with a target in June 1998 of between 60 000 to 70 000 per month. It is the Mr GUDE (Minister for Education) - First of all, largest single contract ever let in the world for the government would like to congratulate those transponders. It represents an advance on 60 per cent or more of teachers who have done the technology that has already been operational in responsible thing and stayed at school and taught Austria for some time and is about to become the kids. The other thing worth noting is that the operational in Denmark. The contract is a significant AEU said that 80 schools would be closed. The milestone for Victorian-based industry. It is the first advice I have received is that about nine have been time the Combitech Traffic Systems -- closed. That is a another massive failure for the Australian Education Union. Such a miserably poor Mr Haermeyer interjected. response is telling, given that the union has committed itself to running an unprecedented, Mr MACLELLAN - Could you keep your politically biased and dishonest campaign in recent mouth shut and listen for once! Just put your mouth times, including television and radio and your brain in the same gear! advertisements. Today's performance puts the Australian Education Union in the position of The SPEAKER - Order! The minister will largely achieving what it has been striving to achieve address his remarks through the Chair. for the past four or five years - that is, irrelevance.

Mr MACLELLAN - I can understand why the There has been a significant increase in funding for honourable members for Yan Yean and education. If we take the 1991-92 financial year as a Thomastown do not like this sort of news because it base, we see that the school education budget has is about Victorian industry getting technology, gone from $2.415 billion to $2.766 billion, an increase international partnerships and employment. Those of some $351 million, or 14.5 per cent. That is not what the Australian Education Union has been QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

1028 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 telling its members or the public. I am pleased to see in this state that under the insurance arrangements that the members of the union - that is, the teachers their common-law rights remain intact. out in the schools - are not being duped. Honourable members interjecting. In addition, in a period of zero inflation the government has, without any overtures from the The SPEAKER - Order! We cannot continue union, given the teachers a 6 per cent pay increase. I question time with that sort of barracking and can well understand the union's embarrassment at clapping going on. not having made the claim. The union is so lacklustre, so out of touch and so irrelevant in Mr W. D. McGRATH -1bis summer will be an representing its members that it took the extremely difficult fire season for all Victorians. We government to show the initiative and reward should focus on giving total support to our teachers for their hard work. volunteer firefighters for the magnificent job they do, in assodation with the Country Fire Authority, The government is and will remain committed to in ensuring the safety of property and people in the quality educational outcomes. It will continue to do state. what is right for the children in our schools, whether that involves their academic pursuits or the quality Victorian Law Enforcement Drug Fund of the buildings in which they are housed. Finally, on behalf of the government I pay tribute to those Mr PHILLIPS (Eltham) - Will the Minister for teachers who have continued to provide dedicated Police and Emergency Services inform the house of and quality learning in our schools. the projects recently approved by the Victorian Law Enforcement Drug Fund that are aimed at reducing Workcover: CFA volunteers drug and alcohol-related crimes and harm?

Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - I refer the Mr w. D. McGRATH (Minister for Police and Minister for Police and Emergency Services to Emergency Services) - I thank the honourable Mr Roger Pescott's statement that the Kennett member for Eltham for his question and his interest government's proposed Workcover changes are in alleviating the crime and harm in the Victorian 'another example of bad government' and to the fact community that is caused by illidt drugs in that the benefits available to the 70 000 volunteer particular. I am pleased to announce that an firefighters under the Country Fire Authority's allocation of $767 927 has been made from the compensation scheme are defined to be the same as Victorian Law Enforcement Drug Fund for nine the benefits available under Workcover. Will the projects in Victoria. Those nine projects involve the compensation benefits for volunteer firefighters be City of Melbourne; the Gippsland Police slashed or will we see another example of the Community Consultative Committee through the government's extraordinary inconsistency in Gippsland Anti-Violence Project Management Team; amending the regulations so that an injured the Licensed Clubs Assodation of Victoria, which volunteer firefighter can sue at common law but a relates to the Responsible Serving of Alcohol paid firefighter with exactly the same injury cannot? program; Moreland Hall, through the Office of Correctional Services - and I point out that Honourable members interjecting. Moreland Hall provides many health services to our private sector prisons in particular; the Victorian Mr W. D. McGRATH (Minister for Police and Assodation for the Care and Resettlement of Emergency Services) - I will not enter into the Offenders, or VACRO; the Victoria Police debate about what the former honourable member Vietnamese language project; the Victoria Police for Mitcham, Mr Roger Pescott, said or did not say. IDidt Drugs Investigation program; the Victoria One needs to understand the difference between Police Training Services Unit; and the Victorian those who are paid for providing services through chapter of the Vietnamese Community in Australia the Country Fire Authority and those who do so on and the Vietnamese Students Association. a volunteer basis. Those who work with the Country Fire Authority as volunteers are obviously not paid, It is interesting to note that the project involving the so the Country Fire Authority carries its own City of Melbourne, which has been allocated $75 000 insurance policy on their behalf. I sought advice over the next 12 months, has as its aim: from the Victorian Government Solidtor on the Workcover changes, and I can assure all volunteers QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1029

to detennine the scope and social and economic impact Family services: Parentline program of the CBD young injecting drug-using population on the City of Melbourne area. Mr WELLS (Wantima) - Will the Minister for Youth and Community Services advise the house of The project will recommend programs that will the government's intention through the reduce the use and impact of injecting drugs. The establishment of the Parentline program to better Lord Mayor of Melbourne, Cr Ivan Deveson, and support and strengthen families? others have been vocal about the problems of illicit drugs in the central business district of Melbourne. Or NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and They are particularly concerned about the use of Community Services) - I thank the honourable heroin in Russell Street; many honourable members member for his question about the most important will be aware of that problem. The government will issue of support for Victorian parents. The assist the City of Melbourne to tackle what is a blight government has a proud record of support for on our city - the distribution and use of drugs in parents and, therefore, support for children and Russell Street. families.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why young Prior to the last election, the government had a people pursue the use of illicit drugs in the manner policy of establishing an Office of the Family. Last they do, bearing in mind the amount of advertising year, that office was established within the and education about the harm and reduction in jurisdiction of my department and following its quality of life resulting from drug use. The amount establishment a number of initiatives have been of approximately $800 000 is complementary to the taken to support and strengthen families and to Turning the Tide program through which the assist parents in their parenting roles. government will inject about $100 million in the next four years in a number of programs focused on An initiative mentioned in the question by the education, health and correctional services. Those honourable member is the establishment by the programs are aimed at having people come to terms government of Parentline. That service will operate with the problem of illicit drug use and alcohol from about May next year and will provide a abuse in our community. 1300 telephone number, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for Victorian parents who can telephone to I hope that at the end of the day, a return on the receive information, advice or referrals. $800 000 justifies the investment made to ensure that particularly young people take a greater degree of The line will provide the initial support for parents responsibility for their own lives, thereby making it experiencing difficulties and will enable them to more difficult for those drug pushers who pursue gain access to advice and support in their the goal of destroying our young people. challenging but rewarding roles.

Workcover: CFA volunteers Ms Campbell interjected.

Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I Or NAPTHINE - The honourable member for refer the Minister for Police and Emergency Services Pascoe Vale interjects to say that there are no to his previous answer and to the Dandenong services. Clearly, she shows her utter ignorance of Ranges fires earlier this year, when paid and the parenting services available in Victoria. The volunteer firefighters fought side by side to save government has an integrated range of parenting property and lives. Why should a volunteer services to back up Parentline. The Victorian firefighter be able to gain access to common-law Parenting Centre was established early this year rights while the paid CFA or MFB officer who may through a consortium involving the Royal experience similar injuries to the firefighter who Children's Hospital, Tweddle Child and Family fought by his side will be ineligible to so claim? Health Service and RMIT. That excellent consortium provides parenting resources, research and Mr W. D. McGRATH (Minister for Police and development across the state. Emergency Services) - I have a short answer to a long question. Volunteers do not have Workcover In addition, the government is committed to insurance. They are covered independently by the establishing regional parenting resource services CFA through the CFA's insurance arrangements. throughout the state in the nine Department of Human Services regions. Services are already BUSINESS FRANCHISE FEES (SAFETY NET) BILL

1030 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 operating in five regions, including an excellent one Firstly, it must substantively repeal the provisions in the Gty of Wyndham. The remaining four which impose those taxes which we regard as at services will commence next year. least a significant risk of being declared constitutionally invalid. Secondly, the state must Also, my department makes available a positive provide statutory authority and the authority of parenting program and positive parenting tip Parliament for the refund arrangements necessary to sheets - now claimed to be an excellent initiative. I ensure minimal impact on retail prices by virtue of am sure that if the honourable member for Pascoe the states providing rebates, in some cases, to offset Vale knew anything about parenting resources in the collection of the tax at a uniform national rate in Victoria she would endorse the program as an the commonwealth jurisdiction. excellent one. The government has provided additional resources in its budget for family support Motion agreed to. services, particularly targeting families who are in higher need and at-risk categories. More families Read first time. will be supported through that process. LAND TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL The government has an integrated range of services including, as I said, the new 24-hour Parentline Introduction and first reading which will be linked with the statewide parenting services and the program targeting at-risk families. Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - I move: Generalised programs include positive parenting aims. Through the Office of the Family the That I have leave to bring in a bill to amend the Land government is committed to supporting families and Tax Act 1958 and for other purposes. parenting, and an integrated service to deliver that outcome. Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - I ask the minister for a short explanation of the bill. BUSINESS FRANCHISE FEES (SAFETY NET) BILL Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) (By leave) - The house will recall that in the last budget I indicated Introduction and first reading that new valuations become available this year and, as a result, the government would have to conduct Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - I move: the normal annual review of the land tax structure in the light of the new valuation data, which will come That I have leave to bring in a bill to amend the into force in 1998. The bill will implement the Business Franchise

Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) (By leave) - The PUBLIC SECTOR MANAGEMENT AND house will be aware that following a recent decision EMPLOYMENT BILL of the High Court, Australian governments have concluded that there is a significant risk of franchise Introduction and first reading fees imposed by state governments on tobacco, petroleum products and liquor being Mr KENNEIT (Premier) - I move: constitutionally invalid. As a result, a safety net arrangement by agreement between each state and That I have leave to bring in a bill to provide for the the commonwealth has been put in place to have the management of the Victorian public sector and for commonwealth increase various taxes and to return other purposes. revenue to the states. There are windfall profit taxing arrangements in place under the federal Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - I ask the Premier legislation. The state must perform two functions in for a short explanation of the bill. respect of that. CONFISCA nON BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1031

Mr KENNETI (Premier) (By leave) - The bill Mr HULLS (Niddrie) - I seek a brief explanation provides for some management changes within the of the bill. Victorian public sector; such changes happen on a fairly regular basis. The government is continually Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) (By leave) - trying to upgrade the quality of the service it Basically, the bill repeals the Crimes (Confiscation of provides. Victoria is now recognised as the leading Profits) Act and replaces it with a new bill. The public service in Australia. We will not be government is concerned to ensure that confiscation complacent. We will continue to change. One or a legislation operates as effectively as possible, number of those public servants are waiting, for particularly for certain crimes such as serious fraud instance, to brief the honourable member for and drug crime. Williamstown on the Audit (Amendment) Bill. Three times they have changed their diary appointments The government is in the process of establishing an only to be rudely rung up only minutes -- assets confiscation office. One of the problems the government has found is that there has been no real Mr Bracks interjected. responsibility for initiating actions under existing legislation. The bill will give significantly increased The SPEAKER - Order! It is not a debate about powers to the new office and to the Director of diary dates. Public Prosecutions. It will re-enact existing forfeiture provisions for a wide range of crimes but Mr KENNETI - That is exactly right. It is provide more significant powers for more serious interesting that the honourable member for crimes. Williamstown has said he cancelled the meetings with audit public servants, the public servants Motion agreed to. whom the bill is about. Three times they have adjusted their programs to suit him because he has Read first time. said they will not come here to see him. For the first time yesterday -- ALPINE RESORTS BILL

Mr Thwaites interjected. Withdrawn on motion of Mrs TEHAN (Minister for Conservation and Land Management). The SPEAKER - Order! I ask the Premier to come back to a brief explanation of the bill. EPWORTH HOSPITAL (AMENDMENT) BILL Mr KENNETI - As I was explaining, the bill provides for changes to the way the time of Introduction and first reading Victorian public servants is utilised. We do not like to see their time wasted by members of Parliament Mr NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and who abuse the opportunities they provide for Community Services) introduced a bill to amend briefings. the Epworth Hospital Act 1980 and for other purposes. Motion agreed to. Read first time. Read first time. PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT CONFISCATION BILL (AMENDMENT) BILL

Introduction and first reading Committed.

Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) - I move: Committee

That I have leave to bring in a bill to provide for the Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to. forfeiture of the proceeds of crime and other property in certain circumstances, to amend the Sentencing Act Clause 3 1991, to repeal the Crimes (Confiscation of Profits) Act 1986 and for other purposes. Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and Local Government) - I move: FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1032 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997

1. Clause 3, page 3, line 20, omit "2101" and insert Cole,Mr Mildenhall, Mr "2011". Cunningham, Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr Davies, Ms Seitz,Mr 2. Clause 3, page 10, line 20, omit "Act" and insert Dollis,Mr Thwaites, Mr "Part". Garbutt, Ms Wilson,Mrs 3. Clause 3, page 10, line 21, omit "Act" and insert "Part". Motion agreed to. Amendments agreed to; amended clause agreed to; Read third time. clauses 4 to 6 agreed to. Remaining stages Reported to house with amendments. Passed remaining stages. Report adopted. FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL Third reading Debate resumed from 15 October; motion of House divided on motion: Or NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and Community Services). Ayes, 53 Andrighetto, Mr Macle1Jan, Mr Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - Earlier this year Ashley,Mr McNamara, Mr all Victorians were most concerned about a series of Burke, Ms (Teller) Maughan,Mr serious outbreaks of food poisoning. Those Clark, Mr Napthine, Or outbreaks led to a number of people being seriously Coleman,Mr Paterson, Mr ill; they also led to a fundamental decline in public Dean, Or Perrin,Mr confidence in food regulation in Victoria. Dixon,Mr Peulich, Mrs Doyle,Mr Phillips, Mr We all rely on food to live, but beyond that food and Elder,Mr Plowrnan, Mr A.F. the food business is an extremely important part of Elliott, Mrs Reynolds, Mr the economy. It is important for the producers of the Finn,Mr Richardson, Mr food, the distributors and the final supplies, whether Gude,Mr Rowe,Mr they be supermarkets, shops or restaurants. It is not Henderson, Mrs Ryan,Mr only vital that our food regulation system be safe for Honeywood, Mr Savage, Mr public health, it is also vital that that sys~em be safe Shardey, Mrs Jasper, Mr to ensure confidence in our food regulation and Jenkins, Mr Smith, Mr E.R. (Tel/er) thereby protect this important sector of the economy. John,Mr Smith, Mr LW. Kilgour, Mr (Teller) Spry,Mr The food poisoning scare earlier this year was an Lean,Mr Steggall, Mr outrage and a cause of concern for all Victorians. Leigh,Mr Stockdale, Mr This is an instance where the opposition has to say, Lupton,Mr Tehan,Mrs 'We told you so'. Shortly after my appointment as McArthur, Mr Thompson, Mr shadow Minister for Health, amendments to the McCall,Ms Traynor,Mr Food Act were introduced. In my contribution to the McGill,Mrs Treasure, Mr debate at that time I said the deregulation of the McGrath, Mr J.F. Wade,Mrs food industry would cause problems. That is exactly McGrath, Mr W.D. Wells,Mr what has occurred. McLellan, Mr In 1994 the government removed the regulations Noes, 26 governing food safety, thereby removing an effective Andtianopoulos, Mr Gillett, Ms (Tel/er) mechanism for protecting the public. I stated then Baker,Mr Haermeyer, Mr that the government's deregulation would mean Batchelor, Mr Hulls,Mr people who bought food in shops or restaurants Bracks,Mr Kosky,Ms would no longer feel safe that the premises were Brurnby,Mr Leighton, Mr being properly inspected. Despite those opposition Cameron, Mr (Teller) Lim,Mr warnings, the government went ahead. Health Campbell,Ms Maddigan, Mrs (Teller) surveyors from councils also raised serious concerns Carli,Mr Micallef, Mr FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1033 about the deregulation. The head of their association after the horse had bolted. If an inspector came to at the time was quoted in the press as saying that premises and found practices that might lead to people could be poisoned because shops would not contamination, there was nothing he or she could do be properly inspected as a result of the legislation. unless adulterated food was found. That is the sort That is exactly what occurred. of short-sighted deregulation this government supports. Mr Steggall interjected. I recall a Tandberg cartoon depicting the then health Mr THWAITES - The honourable member for minister, the current Minister for Conservation and Swan Hill, who is leaving the chamber, is not Land Management, boasting that she was removing prepared to debate this properly. He ought to know, red tape from food and food sales, and a diner because after my contribution on the previous bill he saying, 'Yeah, but what about the salmonella'. At the spoke in support of it. I know from personal time the red tape was removed, the salmonella was experience in this area, both as a councillor from the still there, and salmonella is a virulent City of South Melbourne and subsequently as a contamination that can even lead to death. lawyer working in food safety and food prosecutions, that many restaurants and food The government was more interested in sticking premises were disgusting. Proprietors were cutting with the ideology of a deregulatory approach corners and food safety was being put at risk. The regardless of the outcome. The result has been a real problem is lack of education. Proprietors of food widespread breakdown in food control, raising the premises wanted to do the right thing, but did not threat of food poisoning. The opposition does not know how to go about it. The opposition has always want to see Victorians suffering from food supported the improved education of food poisoning; nor does it want to see the confidence in proprietors. its food businesses undermined as it was by the government's deregulatory approach. As a result of The ACI1NG SPEAKER (Mr Perton) - Order! the food poisoning outbreak earlier this year, the Will the honourable member turn around and face opposition consulted a number of business the Chair while making his contribution? organisations that were concerned about the lack of confidence in the food regulatory system. We spoke Mr THWAITES - I was not aware that the with Vietnamese traders in Springvale and standing orders require that, Mr Acting Speaker. Richmond, who told us they wanted a more regulated system to assure the public that they The ACTING SPEAKER - You are supposed to would not be subject to food poisoning in speak through the Chair. restaurants in their shopping centres. The outbreak had caused a substantial decline in the business of a Mr THWAITES - I am speaking through you, number of those restaurants, a matter about which Mr Acting Speaker. I am sure your constituents the opposition is most concerned. would be most concerned about any food premises selling food that is liable to cause food poisoning. As a result of that consultation, the opposition There are some dangerous practices in food proposed a number of amendments to legislation handling. One is storing uncooked meat next to earlier this year to reintroduce regulations, to cooked meat. The infection or contamination can introduce a better scheme of education and to travel from the uncooked meat to the cooked meat, reinstate food safety in Victoria. It urged the leading to food poisoning. A food safety regulation government to introduce those changes. The once prevented that, but it was allowed to sunset government showed the same lack of interest in when the government deregulated the food public safety then that it always has. Instead of industry. The result is that there is no way that sort supporting the opposition and introducing of danger to public health can be stopped. legislation immediately, it delayed it. Finally a bill has come before the house. The old food regulations contained numerous other prohibitions aimed at preventing food poisoning. The problem the opposition has is that although it The government said there was still a provision supports the principles of regulation as outlined in prohibiting the selling of adulterated food and that the legislation, the mere passing of this bill by itself that was good enough. The problem was that the will not lead to any great improvements as it will proviSion did not prevent conduct leading to the not be implemented for months, if not years. This adulteration of food. It was shutting the stable door legislation is a mirage. While the legislative FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1034 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 framework is in place for improved regulation, the the fact that in looking up the procedures of the implementation is still up in the air. house I have discovered a number of Speakers' rulings about honourable members who do not face It was clear from the briefing by departmental the Chair while speaking in debate. I point out to the officials, who were very informative as they always Deputy Leader of the Opposition that he should face are and are doing the best they can, that there is no the Chair when he is making a contribution. clear plan for implementation. It was unclear when particular types of premises will be subject to the Mr THWAITES - Thank you, Mr Acting new system. It was also unclear whether there is a Speaker. Before you made that point, Sir, I was clear timetable. If there is, I would be pleased if the talking about the system of food auditors and the government would produce it. opposition's concern about the method of their appointment. We believe it could lead to a conflict of The indication was that it may take four years for the interest in the relatively small number of cases legislation to be fully implemented - that is, it will where food proprietors are cutting corners and not be four years before we get the sort of food safety we doing the right thing. all deserve. The opposition is concerned that the legislation does not specify when the various food Another concern is whether the system will be safety plans will come into operation. They will all cumbersome and expensive for small business. I be subject to later regulation and administrative should have thought that the most appropriate way action, because the government has been so tardy in to enforce food regulations would be through each introducing the legislation that it has not reached a local council's environmental health officers. They proper arrangement with the businesses that will are the people who are experienced in the area, and have to implement it. if more resources are to go to food regulation, that is where they should go - but that is not what is That leads me to the opposition's second major happening. Unfortunately, compulsory competitive concern, which is the government's failure to tendering and the budget cuts that have been forced properly consult with the industry. Although we on councils by the government have meant that support the increased regulation of food, we do not there are not enough food inspectors. support unnecessary expense for small businesses that are trying to make a go of it when the outcome Surveys conducted by the opposition earlier this may not improve public safety. year in some of the suburbs affected by food poisoning showed a massive shortfall in the number Essentially, the legislation does two things. Firstly, it of food officers. That is a danger to the public and introduces a system of food safety plans, and we undermines the quality of food regulation. I will support the principle underlying it. We think it is a refer to the figures later. If there are not enough food good idea that food premises must prepare food inspectors on the ground, the whole system of safety plans that identify hazards and set out how legislative regulation will not work. Although the staff should be trained to ensure food safety. Local opposition supports the principle of councils councils have to approve those plans, and we approving the plans, it has real concerns about there support their role in doing that. not being enough food inspectors to properly oversee the implementation and operation of the The legislation also sets up a second-tier system of plans. You can have all the legislation in the world, food auditors. The concerns we have about that are but it is pointless if there are not enough twofold. The first is that those auditors will be environmental health officers to enforce the appointed by the businesses, themselves. I should regulations. This legislation also covers the have thought that would involve a conflict of relationship between the regulation of food other interest. An auditor who is appointed by a business than meat and the regulation of meat. is less likely to find and reveal problems with the system because it is in the financial interests of that Mr Steggall interjected. business that he not do so. The vast majority of the businesses involved in selling food will want to do Mr THWAITES - Yes, food other than meat, the right thing. and meat. The legislation divides the regulation of food into two categories: one relating to premises The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Perrin) - Order! I that predominantly handle meat, and one relating to do not want to interrupt the flow of the honourable premises that predominantly handle food other than member's contribution, but I bring to his attention meat. The Victorian Meat Authority (VMA) will be FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1035 responsible for the former, and councils will be involves protecting public safety. But the responsible for the latter. government's policies of compulsory competitive tendering and cutting council budgets have made Changes are most likely to occur in places such as their jobs particularly difficult. supermarkets. As I understand it, supermarket butchers will now be regulated by councils, whereas Because of cuts to council budgets in country areas before they may have been subject to VMA many health surveyors or environmental health regulations. Regardless of whether it is by the officers (EHOs) are now being forced to do work Victorian Meat Authority or a local council, enough they did not have to do before that is unrelated to resources and inspectors must be available if the job food inspection. I have also received complaints that is to be done properly - and there are not enough. instead of looking after public health, EHOs are spending 50 per cent of their time completing The survey we carried out earlier this year revealed contracts and tender documents to get their own that in some councils the cut in the number of food jobs back. Some of the people in the outer eastern inspectors exceeded 60 per cent. For example, in suburbs-- Brimbank, there were once 14 food inspectors but at the time of the survey there were 5, a cut of Mr Doyle interjected. 64 per cent. In Bendigo, the number of food inspectors had been cut from 7.7 to 4; and in Casey, The ACTING SPEAKER - Order! The the number had been cut from 7 to 5. In the City of honourable member for Malvern is committing two Greater Geelong the number of food inspectors had sins. Firstly, he is interjecting and, secondly, he is out been cut from 12 to 6; in Hume, the number had of his place. been cut from 10 to 4; and in Kingston, there were 6 inspectors when previously there had been 9. In Mr THWAITES - People in the outer eastern the Shire of La Trobe, the number of inspectors had suburbs, presumably in areas like Mitcham, are very fallen from 7 to 3; in the Shire of Momington concerned about the decline in food safety. Earlier Peninsula the number had been cut from 8 to 3; in this year I was talking to some EHOs who said they the City of Port Phillip, there were 5 when were spending half their time filling out forms, previously there had been 9; and in the City of completing tenders and doing anything other than Greater Dandenong, the number of food inspectors looking after public health because of the system the had been cut from 9 to 6. government has forced upon councils with CCT. Far from reducing the red tape, which the government Mr Steggall interjected. claimed it was doing, it is tying up the EHOs in red tape and making it more difficult for them to do the Mr THWAITES - Although, as has occurred in job they are paid to do. many country areas, the number of food inspectors in the electorate of the honourable member for Swan Earlier this year the opposition put forward a Hill has not been cut -- positive plan to improve food safety. Firstly, it called on the government to hold a proper inquiry into Mr Doyle interjected. Victoria's food inspection and food safety systems because the serious breakdown in public health was Mr rnwAITES - Environmental health officer causing illness with a huge number of food is the new name. Either way, they do the same job. poisoning cases. It also asked for a ministerial statement by the Minister for Agriculture and Government members interjecting. Resources and the Minister for Health setting out the incidences of food poisoning, the government's Mr THWAITES - They do. response to remedy defects in food safety, a reintroduction of enforceable regulations for food The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Perrin) - Order! handling and contamination prevention, that a The Deputy Leader of the Opposition does not need proprietor or one employee of a food handling any help from the government benches. premises be required to attend a food handling course at a recognised TAFE or private institute, Mr THWAITES - Their job is to protect public and, finally, the removal of CCT on local safety. Food inspectors, as they used to be called, or government public health services. The government health surveyors or environmental health officers, as constantly criticises the opposition for not putting they are now known, all do the same job, which FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1036 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 forward positive ideas and policies but it came up would not be implemented in time for the summer. with a comprehensive food safety -- If we have a hot summer like we had this year, it seems the government is saying to everyone: caveat Mr Doyle interjected. emptor - buyer beware! Consumers cannot be sure that the food system is safe because the government The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Perrin) - Order! has been so tardy in implementing the proposals the The honourable member for Malvern is committing opposition recommended earlier this year - indeed, only one sin. He is interjecting while in his place. If it has been recommending them for some time! the honourable member wants to make a contribution I will call him next. Although it is based partly on the principle of self-regulation, which is a real concern, the bill Mr THWAlTES - The opposition put forward a improves the level of regulation. If the owner of a comprehensive package of measures aimed at premises appoints its own auditors, I am concerned protecting public safety, but unfortunately the that the level of regulation might not be as government failed to follow its recommendations, independent or as good as it should be. Perhaps the just as it failed to follow its recommendations in parliamentary secretary will address that point. I 1994 with the resultant problems in our food safety have referred to overseas cases where there has been system that I mentioned earlier. a major breakdown in meat safety under the system of self-regulation. The information was kindly sent Another issue that has arisen because of a decline in to me by Mr Wally Curran. Members opposite the number of EHOs is food-related prosecutions. laugh, but he probably knows more about meat The number of charges laid under the Food Act has safety than most. The information raised real declined year after year since 1983. The total number concerns about the principle of self-regulation when of charges in 1993 was 1535; in 1994, 1352; in 1995, it comes to public safety. Those on this side of the 825; and in 1996,543. If there are fewer prosecutions house believe that when it comes to public safety we each year it is easier for unscrupulous food should not be implementing a self-regulatory operators to get away with endangering public scheme, but one that is controlled by councils with health. That is what happened in a number of cases independent food surveyors or EHOs who act earlier this year. without fear or favour.

Honourable members will remember the My understanding is that the legislation is based on photograph and story on the front page of the the HACCP principles, which are internationally Sunday Herald Sun of 20 April. The photograph recognised and are in line with the approach being showed a gentleman jumping out of the back of a adopted by the Australian and New Zealand Food meat transport vehicle with a handful of chicken Authority. The principle is essentially based on breasts. Presumably they were being taken into a trying to identify hazards before they arise. That is a shop from where they would be sold to the public. I good approach, although the opposition would say a cannot imagine anything more likely to cause ill prosecution approach is also needed because, health than that. The newspaper said the revealing regardless of their best intentions, 5 per cent of food photograph would shocked Melbourne, which it proprietors will breach the rules and cut corners. If did. It seems that it took that photograph to stir the the government relies on only the HACCP approach, government into any sort of action. Although it the opposition believes all the cases of intransigent ignored the opposition, EHOs and the health or unrepentant proprietors who are not prepared to experts, it seems the government does take some follow the rules will not be picked up. note of the Sunday Herald Sun. That is something the newspaper can be pleased about, but it is not Dealing with food premises such as restaurants and something the people who might want to use food food stores is different from dealing with major meat premises or eat at restaurants can take much comfort suppliers, in which sector the HACCP principles from. were initiated. Major meat suppliers are large operations and tend to have more resources behind Rather than taking the swift action the opposition them. Any problems are therefore easier to identify, suggested, the government was extremely tardy. It and the suppliers are more easily educated about the waited many months before introducing this problems that arise. legislation which means we will not have any food safety improvements this summer. At the briefing However, there are some 30 000 other food premises opposition members were told that the legislation in Victoria. To be honest, many of those do not have FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1037 a great many resources behind them, because they difficult to prosecute those types of cases. That is one are very much small business. Their staff members of the reasons for the fundamental decline in the do not have the time to attend courses or undertake number of prosecutions and one of the reasons that training. I believe a small element of those food safety continues to be put at risk. businesses will cut corners and breach proper food safety standards, either because they are intransigent As I said earlier, the opposition has concerns about or because they do not know what to do. the implementation of the legislation and whether it is more about public relations than about fixing the Enough food inspectors or environmental health problem. The government has given the Australian officers are needed to visit difficult and intransigent and New Zealand Food Authority an undertaking stores and wave the big stick. It is a bit like the road that it will amend the legislation to fit in with the safety system. We have a hazard principle, if you new uniform scheme that is to be introduced. That like, which means most drivers are encouraged to may well be why the legislation will have such a drive safely - and it is in all our interests to do so. long implementation period. We have a suspicion But underpinning that we have a prosecution that the legislation will never apply to many system which prohibits dangerous driving such as premises because by the time it is implemented the running red lights and speeding and which new national Australian scheme will have come into establishes a set of rules to which sensible drivers existence. adhere. However, because a small number of drivers breach the law, we need a system of regulation. As well as being concerned about the implementation of the legislation, many small Although it sensibly promotes the HACCP businesses are not happy about the lack of principles, the bill fails to acknowledge that a small consultation. Consultation with small business is but important number of food premises will critical to the success of the plan. Although the continue to breach proper standards and put public government established the Food Hygiene Advisory health at risk. That is why we had detailed food Committee, I understand it was subsequently regulations. I acknowledge that those regulations dissolved and that a food safety forum was were too detailed - for example, there was no need established comprising representatives of a number to stipulate how far the toilet should be from the of affected bodies such as the Australian Institute of kitchen or how high various sections of the premises Environmental Health, the Australian Hotels and should be. However, other regulations were Hospitality Association, the Bread and Breakfast sensible, such as those which prohibited storing Council, hotel and motel accommodation cooked meat next to uncooked meat and putting associations, host farm associations and a number of food in receptacles that had contained fertiliser or others. other possible contaminants and which said that you had to wash your hands before handling food. I am advised that although some members of the forum have been consulted, overall that has been Mr Steggall interjected. done only informally and the affected bodies have not been consulted appropriately. I understand a Mr THWAITES - The parliamentary secretary letter was sent to the minister in September says the government agrees, but my understanding complaining about the lack of consultation. The of the current system is that no offence will be letter was written by Mr Jim Smith, who has advised committed if someone does that. the government on the issue. The concerns included the following: Mr Steggall-It is exactly the same offence as before. ... there has been no consultation with industry by the responsible bureaucracy, contrary to the principles of Mr THWAITES - No, the offences are the same co-regulatory approaches to food policy, and contrary but the regulatory offences no longer exist. The to the government's stated pOSition on working closely offences in the act are limited to selling adulterated with industry; food or having Wlclean premises. I have obtained legal advice from people who prosecute offences there is increasing uncertainty within the industry such as those. I am advised that you can do things including local government regarding the proposed such as store cooked meat next to uncooked meat requirements which is now resulting in quite fallacious and not be in breach of either of those provisions. I advice being given to industry; am also advised that it has become extremely FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1038 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997

there has been no consideration and examination of the affected bodies a proper opportunity to have their impact on industry in terms of costs and employment; say.

the increased potential for inconsistent administration The minister states in his second-reading speech: by local government and other regulators and for impractical requirements on small business ... It is expected that in practice model programs will be developed by various sectors of the food industry. Clearly, the sellers and purveyors of food are concerned not only about lack of consultation but The opposition is concerned at the lack of certainty also about the extra costs they will face as a result. that model programs will be developed. One The opposition asks: what resources will be made complaint that businesses and councils are making available to assist small business to meet the about the bill is that there has been much requirements of the act? What resources will be expectation but little consultation on it; without made available to assist small businesses to prepare consultation, there is no certainty that the model food safety plans? Unless some assistance is given, programs will be developed. the legislation may well be honoured more in the breach than in the observance. It is likely that a sudden demand will arise for commercial services to help prepare a food safety Earlier I referred to the huge number of small program and for its auditing, which is mandated businesses that will not have the resources, in many under the legislation. There is a concern about the cases, to comply; if some do happen to have the possibility of a conflict of interest since the auditors necessary resources, they may seek to cut corners. A will be paid by the businesses. It is vital that those pamphlet entitled 'Attention all food business auditors operate, and are seen to operate, operators - how new safety laws affect you' has independently. The opposition does not deny that been produced and distributed. Its distribution has most commercial auditors have integrity, but it is been on the presumption that the legislation would impossible to ensure total independence while the be enacted, although it is a rather good bet despite auditors are being paid by the businesses they are the former honourable member for Mitcham's stand! auditing.

Mr Steggall interjected. One has only to consider the performance of the accounting and auditing profession in the 1980s to Mr THWAITES - I do not know where the see where the system can break down. In a number Independents will line up, but the opposition of serious cases auditors failed to properly carry out intends basically to support the bill. However, I will their functions because of conflicts of interest, and a later circulate an opposition amendment. The number ended up in gaol. We would not want a likelihood is that the legislation will pass but, I hope, situation to develop where pressure is brought to in an altered and improved way after the bear on commercial food auditors on the basis that opposition's amendment has been agreed to. they are being paid and that, therefore, they may fail to give free and frank advice. I have already referred to the lack of consultation with small business and others affected. There has Concern has been expressed also about also been a lack of consultation with relevant unions, clause 6(1)(d) which, on its face, is designed to bring which appears to be par for the course for this private existing meat inspectors under the act. That government. It hates to consult unions - in fact, it provision could be extended into new clauses hates unions! The government does whatever it can covering private inspectors. to destroy unions. The opposition believes unions play a vital role in our community, in representing For example, the government may later assert that their members and also often protecting the public. there is too much overlap between independent auditors and the environmental health officers, and Wally Curran of the Australasian Meat Industry that their roles should be combined into that of one Employees Union, and the Community and Public private operator. The effect of that would be to Sector Union, another affected union, have had little essentially privatise all the environmental health or no proper consultation about the bill. Apparently officers so that instead of having a two-tiered the government has treated this legislation as it system, we would have only a one-tiered privatised treats all legislation - as a fait accompli. It proposes system based on auditors paid by restaurants and to ram the bill through this place without giving the businesses, not independent council officers. That FOOD (AM ENDM ENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1039 would be a fundamental mistake and would go Mr Steggall- Predominantly. down the path that proved disastrous in America. It would place our food safety at risk. Mr THWAITES - Yes, whereas previously it was done by the Victorian Meat Authority. A number of government members are experts on the food industry. The honourable member for Mr Steggall interjected. Swan Hill has always taken an interest in food, which is in his interests because his electorate is an Mr THWAITES - Sorry. I am saying that the important food-producing area. Also, the changeover, as I understand it, will mean that a Honourable Bruce Atkinson in the other place is an butcher at a supermarket will be inspected by the expert on food, in addition to his other activities. local council whereas previously he or she would Apparently the moonlighting member of Parliament have been inspected by the Victorian Meat has been involved in publishing a magazine Authority. I anticipate that will work reasonably Foodweek. Apparently he edits and writes articles well although councils have not had the same during his spare time - although I cannot imagine experience with meat. I hope that adequate training how he would have spare time between his duties as will be available for the council officers who must a parliamentary secretary and as a representative of conduct inspections. his constituents, and the time he spends penning poetry, which we all read with great admiration in The opposition does not oppose that move because it the Herald Sun. makes sense. However, the government should keep a careful eye on that aspect because almost 50 per Mr McArthur interjected. cent of all meat sold in Victoria is through supermarkets. In the long term that will increasingly Mr THWAITES - The honourable member for be the case. Councils will increasingly be responsible Monbulk asks me to quote some of Mr Atkinson's for the regulation of the retail sale of meat. I support poetry. The one adjective that summarises his poetry that principle, but monitoring is needed to ensure more than anything else is forgettable; for that the system works well. In the second-reading speech reason I cannot quote any of his poetry off the top of the minister speaks of educating consumers. my head. Certainly, Mr Atkinson has been involved Unfortunately, although that is recognised as in publishing the food magazine, which raises important, it seems the need to have consumers on questions about his dual roles, including one as a the council has not been recognised, which is of part-time politician. concern to the opposition.

The Food Safety Council which will be established The opposition welcomes the measures that increase under the bill will have only ministerial the supervision of food transport vehicles, especially appointments. Each member will be appointed meat transport vehicles, because there was a individually. None will represent the important food loophole in the system. Earlier this year an article on bodies; there will be no consumer representatives. the issue appeared on the front page of the Herald Council members will have no security of tenure. Sun. The problem is broader than the article suggests. There are more unregistered meat The bill introduces new confidentiality clauses, transport vehicles than there are registered vehicles. presumably to silence those council members The people who transport meat seem to not pay because all members of government bodies and attention to registration. That is a good boards are being silenced these days. People in the demonstration of how any amount of regulation or industry and environmental health field have legislation is of no assistance unless it is backed up expressed grave concerns about the composition of by adequate implementation and enforcement. If the the Food Safety Council. They are concerned that the regulations are not backed up by sufficient council will be established to keep the lid on inspectors and other resources, they will not be information and to ensure that food safety problems properly implemented. are not leaked, rather than ensuring the best outcomes for Victorians. The opposition is There are some shonky players in the food. industry concerned about the lack of accountability in the who need to lift their game. The problem with Food Safety Council. So far as it governs butchers in legislation such as this is that it is likely to be most supermarkets, the bill is interesting because it will be effective within the circle of people who would do left to local councils to carry out inspections. the right thing anyway. The shonks will not be brought to heel. FOOD (AM ENDM ENT) BILL

1040 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997

Mr Steggall interjected. the 19805 were the auditors for Bond, Bruce Judge and others -- Mr THWAITES - The honourable member for Swan Hill says it would not have affected them Dr Napthine interjected. anyway. Mr THW AlTES - And Tricontinental -- Mr Steggall - The good ones. Honourable members interjecting. Mr THWAITES - The good ones will benefit because they will be forced to prepare food safety Mr THWAlTES - You people are arguing our plans and to turn their minds to the proper training case exactly. of staff and overcoming hazards. That will be an improvement on the current situation, which is why Honourable members interjecting. the opposition is supporting the legislation. However, the shonks may be able to get around the Mr THWAITES - The Auditor-General was not legislation by preparing broad food safety plans and the auditor. As I recall, he pointed out the problems not properly implementing them, by taking with the Victorian Economic Development advantage of the lack of sufficient resources to Corporation. Regardless of that, a non-independent oversee the implementation and enforcement of the auditor is not in a pOSition to act without being regulations, or by seeking to employ food auditors subject to influence. who do not properly audit the food safety plans. Mr Steggall interjected. At the end of day, if we have a system of self-regulation or a system under which food Mr THWAITES - The honourable member for auditors are paid by food operators, shonky Swan Hill says there will be many policemen. There operators will have the incentive to put pressure on will be, and that is partly our concern. With most food auditors not to enforce and properly oversight premises, the best arrangement would be not to have the plans. For that reason, the opposition will be the audit system outlined in the bill but to leave it proposing an amendment, which I will move at a up to councils, while ensuring that they have the later stage. resources to do the job properly. However, the government has proposed that we go down this Opposition amendment circulated by track. Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) pursuant to sessional orders. I have circulated the opposition's amendment, but the government may be able to think of a better way Mr THWAITES - The amendment provides that of achieving the same end. Because the legislation is auditors will be appointed by the registration complex, it is difficult to amend one part in that authority and not the proprietors of premises. It may way. Our preference is to proceed down the track of be that there is some other way of achieving the having councils do the whole thing. same end. I ask the government to consider the amendment while the bill is between this and I conclude by pointing out that the opposition another place. warned the government some years ago about the consequences of deregulation, and earlier this year it Mr Doyle interjected. put up a comprehensive package to improve the situation. The government failed to act when it Mr THWAITES - The Parliamentary Secretary should have. Now it is belatedly implementing for Human Services seems to dispute my claim that legislation which will lead to an overall auditors would be appointed by the proprietors. improvement and which the opposition accordingly supports. Mr Doyle interjected. However, we are concerned about the lack of Mr THWAlTES - The secretary makes the point consultation, about possible conflicts of interests that auditors will be independently accredited, but involving auditors and proprietors, and about the that does not provide sufficient safety. It is the same legislation in many cases not being implemented for system that applied to financial auditors, who had some years because there is no clear plan outlining pressure put on them by the crooks of the 19805. In FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1041 which sections will apply to which parts of the food the government believed those responsibilities industry. should settle down and that food, health and hygiene should be the responsibility of one minister. The ACllNG SPEAKER (Mr Perrin) - Order! I For the first time in Australia this Food remind honourable members that they are now (Amendment) Bill will give a single minister - our debating the bill and the amendment that has been health minister - the responsibility for hygiene. circulated by the opposition. Victoria has more than one minister involved in the Mr STEGGALL (Swan Hill) - I thank the food hygiene program because the Victorian Meat Deputy Leader of the Opposition for his Association comes under the responsibility of the contribution; the more he went into it the more he Minister for Agriculture and Resources. The became aware of the approach the government has responsibility of the health delivery side of the adopted as it travelled through this legislation. The legislation sits, fair and square, with the Minister for reason for the legislation stems in part from Health. A vital section of the legislation deals with problems this year and from the need for Australia multi-agencies delivering into the food safety area. to have a national food hygiene policy. We need to We would dearly love to see that, and we have back up and support our exports and our domestic corresponded with other states to let them know market trading and to get food quality and safety what we are doing. We also hope the high on this country's agenda. Food safety commonwealth may consider using the Australia throughout the world is the no. 1 issue in the food New Zealand Food Authority (ANZFA) as the base industry. operator under the Minister for Health and Family Services in the federal Parliament to assume the Contrary to the remarks of the honourable member, responsibilities for health in food hygiene for the the government examined the problem some years nation. ago. It examined how we could move from the present system of a policeman walking around Throughout Australia there are no uniform food trying to catch people breaching safety requirements hygiene standards. ANZFA has been working to a system of participation where those involved in towards trying to establish standards. In 1994 we the food industry would have a set of programs and entered into a joint venture pilot with the Australia standards by which they would run their businesses New Zealand Food Authority to run a pilot with a so that the industry'S proper responsibility would sit group of companies, food stores and local councils on the shoulders of the people in that industry. We in Victoria to put in place legislation that we are need an industry that implements a set of programs debating today, to see whether we could run food that permits them to have the best chance of running safety programs in supermarkets, delicatessens, and a top food operation within their shop or business to see how the environmental health officers would or, in our case, within Australia to ensure that our do it - all those things that the government has just food quality and programs are up to standard and been accused of not doing. We spent over a year transparent. working those programs through.

The government examined the Australian food Mr Hamilton - You can't do it. industry and encouraged processors to move towards the Industrial Supplies Office (ISO) 1902 Mr STEGGALL - That is not true; they have and 1901 standards, if they could meet them. Those been extremely successful. If the honourable operations were introduced into factories so that the member for Morwell would pay a little attention to people trading with food companies were confident the issue of food safety he would be pleased with the of purchasing the safe quality food products that we progress that is being made. The food hygiene produce. By doing so they introduced new project was a jOint venture between the Australia disciplines into their factories and work force. The New Zealand Food Authority and the Department employees strongly adopted those disciplines and of Human Services. The government also liaised participated in the health and safety programs in the with other states to work through the programs. food hygiene area. The participating metropolitan stores were The government also found that food safety Renaissance Festival, Hawthorn; Michael Christian, regulation in Australia was all over the place. As Kew; H. Health Festival/IGA, Wantima; Sam ministers in different governments had Sciacca, Wantima; Piedmonte's Festivai/IGA, responsibility for various parts of the food industry, Fitzroy North; Adrian Lupi, North Carlton; John FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1042 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997

Knorr's Festival/IGA, Ivanhoe; Wayne Gummow, government went against that model, opting instead Montmorency; and Domenic Raco, Coburg. for the Food Safety Council as part of the health department with an advisory function to the The participating rural stores were Fairleys minister. Festival/IGA and Dennis McManus, Shepparton; }ohnson's Festival/IGA, Woodend; and Yvonne The advisory operation has the potential to be of Hoffman, Gisborne. enormous benefit to everyone, particularly ministers, who seek the independent advice they The local government authorities that participated need from skills-based people on all the issues that were the City of Banyule, the City of Boroondara, arise before making decisions on implementation. the City of Greater Shepparton, the City of Knox, the That will assist government bureaucracies and Shire of Macedon Ranges, the City of Moreland and businesses. They will certainly be working very the City of Yarra. closely.

The research team was headed by Or Glenn Maggs Mr Hamilton - You are not saying it is like the and Sally-Ann Nadelman from the Workplace EPA? Culture Change and Training Research Unit of the University of Newcastle Research Associates Ltd, Mr STEGGALL - I am saying it will be a and Professor Anna Bodi from Deakin University. dedicated authority like the EP A. The Food Safety Council will be an advisory body to the minister. A training advisory committee was set up with The responsibility for getting the work done always representatives from RMIT, David's Distribution, sits with the minister, not with a quango that mayor Swinburne University of Technology and the Food may not do it. Industry Training Board. Mr Hamilton - The buck stops with the minister. Consultation about food handling methods, the food safety program, the training required within the Mr STEGGALL - The buck stops with the businesses and how to handle auditing has been minister, yes. That is the right and proper way. I am thorough. As the honourable member for Albert delighted that Professor Mark Wahlquist has Park mentioned, there are about 30 000 food outlets accepted the position of chair of that organisation. in Victoria and we cannot have a policeman at each He is one of the most eminent people in that field, one every day examining them to check whether not only in Australia but in the world. The they are carrying out programs that are right and enthusiasm and the skills he brings to that proper. Through this legislation we can create a food organisation will be of enormous assistance and safety program that will be the basis for registration comfort in considering areas still to be resolved. of food operation in local councils. At present they are registered annually through environmental The legislation also gives the Department of Human health officers, and that will not change. The change Services the power to recall food. Commonwealth will be that the food safety program will be part of legislation was previously used when food scares that registration. People get very worried about the arose. It was not always a problem because usually food safety program. All food operators in Victoria the proprietors caught in those embarrassing have food safety programs; and most of them are in situations are willing to have food recalled. The their heads. The people who operate food outlets do government decided to introduce that prOvision so so with a program of health and safety but they have that in cases of emergency the Secretary of the not had the discipline of writing them down and Department of Human Services will have the power putting them in place. to recall food.

Someone in the workplace must be responsible for I spent 10 years on the Swan Hill City Council training people in food safety hygiene. In most cases working with health surveyors, as they were known it will be the owner or occupier. That is a simple but in those days. The council's attitude was that it welcome regulation. The Food Safety Council will advised health surveyors that prosecuting small provide advice. When conSidering an advisory body businesses in the city was the last thing it would do. to regulate food safety the government examined When infringements of food safety regulations were two models. One was a statutory authority - in detected, the health surveyors worked with the other words an organisation like the EPA, to operate people involved to correct them. That was 15 years and run that area of health. However, the ago. Around the world - we saw a bit of it here last FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1043 year - food safety and food-borne illnesses are a big shops, factories and processors purchasing raw issue. I believe councils will change their attitudes, materials from farms. Some have given time limits particularly this summer. Councils will expect food for those farmers to put safe quality food or proprietors to have safe premises and deliver safe hazard-based programs in place in the whole chain food in their municipalities. There will be more of food handling throughout Victoria and Australia. prosecutions of operators who do not run safe food outlets. It is the government's intention and hope that these measures will be introduced into high risk food Mr Hamilton - It is no use prosecuting them sectors by about the middle of next year and will afterwards. continue to be introduced steadily right throughout the food handling area, with advice from the Food Mr STEGGALL - The food safety program is Safety Council to ensure that programs are staged simple. It might be difficult for the honourable correctly. The legislation will not state exactly when member for Morwell to grasp, but proprietors of each of the different measures will come on stream. food premises seeking registration will set down their own plans for a food safety program in their The food safety program we are introducing is applications each year for approval by the EHOs. backed up by the strong information base that Proprietors will set down simple procedures such as underlies Victoria's food hygiene strategy, which I those mentioned by the honourable member for suggest honourable members consider reading. Albert Park, procedures that they can properly carry Those who have not read it will be surprised by how out, which will be considered by the EHOs. The food strong the information base is. premise will be registered on the proviso that those procedures are carried out. Independent audits of The pilot for the food safety program, which the bill food safety programs will be undertaken to ensure will implement, was completed about a year ago. that they are carried out. That cannot be done by This is the only legislation of its type in Australia, local EHOs in the same municipalities; it can be and we are looking forward to it being picked up by done only by EHOs in other municipalities who are the other states and the commonwealth in particular accredited food auditors. so Australians will have a simple, uniform and understandable process for food hygiene. Mr Hamilton - Who pays for that? Although the legislation contains requirements that Mr STEGGALL - The business pays for the those who will be responsible for training food audit. The food safety program is the second stage of handlers in their business will have to follow, that the food hygiene program for Australia. Firstly, does not mean the training will be mandatory and there was the ISO 9000 standard for food processors, that everyone will have to go to college. However, a the food safety program for our food handling lot of Victorian food operations are seeking sector. We are developing very quickly the education programs on food handling. SQF 2000 standards, the safe quality food standards for our farms. From the farm, right through to the The people using the food training programs will factory and the consumer, HACCP or hazard-based have to be watched carefully, because the quality programs are being established to provide firstly an and standard of the programs will vary until the understanding of the hazards of food handling, at system settles down. Most of our institutions are each stage of growing, processing, handling and offering top-class food training programs, and we eating and to provide a system to minimise are continuing the work we did on the food hygiene outbreaks of food poisoning. No-one can say pilot to have the training and food safety programs Australia will not have outbreaks of food poisoning. operating in all the big stores and food handling That is impossible. But the government must put in areas. place a system that gives us the best chance of preventing them. Victoria's food hygiene strategy includes a multimedia education strategy for both schools and Mr Hamilton - The community has to have the media. It also includes the work of the Victorian confidence. Infectious Diseases Collaborative group, the key priority of which is to investigate and control Mr STEGGALL - That is right. Safe quality food food-borne diseases. There is also the Victorian programs are being enforced on farmers by those food-borne pathogen surveillance scheme and the purchasing their produce - the supermarkets, fruit national salmonella surveillance extension scheme, FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1044 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 which commenced at the start of 1996. We are also I thank the opposition for its support for the upgrading the information systems at the legislation. I believe it will be successful in leading Microbiological Diagnostic Unit. the way for the other states and the commonwealth to follow. I am sure they will be watching with The Vidood database development program will interest. Implementing acceptable programs like this monitor and detect problem areas within Victoria. throughout Australia will help our food industry. The information that is collected will be relayed back Although the penalties in the legislation are a worry to local councils in the form of quarterly reports for to the honourable member for Albert Park, they will follow-up where appropriate. The faster linking of stay as they were. I believe members opposite will cases of gastroenteritis to suspect foodstuffs and change their attitude to them. suspect premises will result in more rapid interventions to extinguish outbreaks. The salmonella outbreaks of last year led to an enormous number of legal cases, including class The developments in the strategy's laboratory actions. I believe the legislation we are putting in analysis and infrastructure services also include the place will provide a reasonable defence against class Victorian Infectious Diseases Reference Laboratory, actions for people who have carried out their food which has been relocated to the Royal Melbourne safety programs to the best of their ability. Hospital, and the Notifiable Infectious Diseases Surveillance System. Believe me, food hygiene is a I thank the food industry of VictOria, which has big business in Victoria. It is not something we have worked with closely with the government on the just stumbled across and thought about. We have legislation, and I thank the environmental health big programs in train. officers and local councils throughout Victoria. I also thank all the food companies, the delicatessens and In the research and development area we have a the supermarkets for their assistance and program to improve our knowledge of food-borne understanding as we sorted out the different illnesses, which is carried out by the Microbiological procedures that were necessary, as I do the Diagnostic Unit of the University of Melbourne in departmental officers, who have been diligent and collaboration with the infectious diseases unit in the strong. public health division of the Department of Human Services. We also have a rapid investigation system I congratulate the two ministers involved - the to speed up investigation and response procedures. Minister for Health, who has been very understanding, and the Deputy Premier, the The advances in research and development include a Minister for Agriculture and Resources. His cross-sectional study of micro-organisms in participation and his willingness to go along with individuals without gastroenteritis. There is also a having a single minister responsible for food study on water quality and its relationship to hygiene have been vital to the success of the gastroenteritis, which is being carried out by the legislation. Although the minister is still the minister Cooperative Research Centre for Water Quality and responsible for the participating agencies, Treatment, the Water Services Association of responsibility for the food programs clearly rests Victoria, the food and water unit of Human Services with the Minister for Health. Victoria and other agencies in the water sector, all of which are jOintly funding the study. I am delighted that the legislation has reached Parliament and will now progress through it. I wish In Victoria we take food safety and food hygiene it well. The other states and the commonwealth will very seriously. We hope all the programs the be able to have a good look at it, and I hope a legislation will introduce will assist all sectors of our program based on ours will eventually be society. We hope those involved will participate implemented throughout our continent. In closing I properly in the programs, which are understandable point out that the legislation will be sunsetted and simple to work with. We also hope the following the introduction of a national food programs will give confidence to those who wish to hygiene program. We would welcome the trade in food in Australia or internationally. The commonwealth's participation in enhancing legislation will also help food processing companies Australia's food hygiene standards. through the HACCP-based programs that exist throughout the system. Mr MICALLEF (Springvale) - The honourable member for Swan Hill gave a fairly detailed explanation about the many clauses in the bill and FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1045 then he proceeded to thank everybody involved. I have worked with Professor Wahlquist in food and commend the government on introducing the bill nutrition when I chaired the Victorian food and but I criticise it for taking some time to respond nutrition working party under a previous because obviously there was a need for this type of government. Mark Wahlquist was an active legislation to be introduced given the spate of contributor to the committee and the respect he incidents that occurred earlier this year and over the engendered from those involved in the industry was previous three or four years since the deregulation evident. He will make an important contribution. of the food industry. The council will play a central role in ensuring there is a coordinated approach across the state to the In his opening comments, the honourable member regulation of the food industry. The one thing that for Swan Hill said the food industry is a very stands out is that we need coordination and a set of important industry to Victoria from processing standards and approaches that are consistent across through to sales in supermarkets, restaurants and so the state. on. Therefore, the government is responsible for ensuring that those who consume those products Since 1994, when the industry was deregulated, should have their safety guaranteed. He was living, working and representing an area like speaking about best practice and the way of Springvale has meant that I have seen headlines in achieving it. I shall not respond to all he said local newspapers such as 'Bakery under although he did suggest that we should not have to investigation before council'. That article referred to police every one of the 30 000 facilities in Victoria to the celebrated World Hot Bread Shop in ensure compliance with a set of prescriptive Springvale Road. A direct consequence of the old regulations. regulations being removed back in 1993 was the more than 50 people who attended the Monash Prescriptive regulations work in some cases but they Medical Centre with various stages of food are unnecessary in others. We have a mixture of poisoning. The shop was prosecuted in 1993 and one areas where food is prepared, such as large stores, can only surmise that if those regulations had large factories, supermarkets and a whole range of continued to be in place the spate of food poisoning smaller stores and other venues such as festivals, cases would not have occurred. It was extremely where food is prepared and sold in smaller lucky that more serious ill-health, other quantities. It is necessary to have regulations or complications or deaths did not occur during the requirements that ensure food is prepared and sold outbreak of food poisoning. The irony is that a local without the risk of food poisoning such as councillor for that ward, Cr Youhom Chea, came salmonella and the other accompanying problems. down with food poisoning as well.

I, with the honourable member for Shepparton, was I remember before 1994 when we had the local talking to a group of young people who had been in council structure in place, that food inspectors a detox unit on the Gold Coast where, of the 36 visited food premises regularly enforcing young people, more than 60 per cent had hepatitis C. prescriptive regulations. I recognise there are They took turns in preparing food and each one had problems with prescriptive regulations, but many to ensure that he or she wore gloves when preparing small restaurant owners responded to the ability of food. I would like the parliamentary secretary to food inspectors to put fear into them by ensuring respond to the point that it needs only one person that products were presented hygienically. with hepatitis C to be preparing food without proper protection, even if the person washes his or her It is very important that education and safety hands, to spread the disease. Victoria is having an handling procedures are in place. In 1992-93 the epidemic of hepatitis C. It is important that a food former City of Springvale had education programs safety plan is in place in restaurants or supermarkets for food handlers in place in consultation with the and that matter needs to be responded to by the local TAFE facilities of Barton and Casey. They were parliamentary secretary. presented in various languages, such as Vietnamese and Chinese. It is important that there be an It is sensible that the Food Act will be the education program, especially for those coming responsibility of one minister. It will make the from different cultures where it is not necessary to implementation of the legislation more rational comply with regulations. It is good to communicate when it has passed through Parliament. I with people who lack an understanding of our understand that Professor Mark Wahlquist will chair culture and practices. If the introduction of the food the Food Safety Council, which I fully support. I FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1046 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 safety plan is to be successful it will need to have an supermarkets that sell meat as part of their educational component. operations. That also makes sense and will help to rationalise the food regulation industry. The opposition's concern about the food safety plan Self-regulation will work in some cases - but the is that a shop, a supermarket or a factory will only time it really works is if it carries the threat of employ its own auditors to draw up a food plan. I regulation. do not have as much of a problem with that as other opposition members do as I have an occupational We must have the ability to evaluate the health and safety background. I can see a parallel in effectiveness of self-regulation. I again draw a that it is common for small factories to bring in parallel with occupational health and safety and the consultants to draw up health and safety plans, plant safety regulations and the duty-of-care rehabilitation plans and so on. In many cases they provisions. The managers of companies or the draw up plans with a view to either getting work owners of businesses were responsible for directly or linking up with other companies to implementing those regulations, which were provide support services. That in itself is a business. prescriptive. The regulations governing the meat Companies are always concerned about other industry may have been overly prescriptive, but we companies making profits out of the businesses they need to strike a balance between prescriptive are in. regulation and self-regulation, and we need the ability to ensure the regulations are enacted We are concerned about the food safety plans drawn effectively. up by consultants being acceptable to those requesting them. Councils could play an important That is all I want to say on the bill. My final point is role in the process. Model plans could be drawn up about the activity in Springvale over the Easter and adapted to an organisation's needs. I do not see weekend this year when television crews came out this as being a problem in larger companies, larger to film the hot bread shop I mentioned before and supermarkets and factories, where self-regulation various restaurants, including the Hop Ky tends to work more effectively because there are restaurant in Buckingham Avenue, where somebody more people on hand, there is union representation had reportedly died after eating a meal just before and government inspectors come in on a regular Easter. I had eaten in the same restaurant myself at basis. The issue is about getting to the smaller places. about the same time as the person was supposed to have died. I still frequent it because I believe it I am not sure whether the shadow minister for makes the best hot Thai fish soup in the world. health and community services raised it, but I am concerned about the legal liability involved in a Whenever I return from travelling the first thing I do council accepting a food safety plan. If a council is go back to the restaurant for my dose of fish soup. passes a plan and a problem emerges with a shop The owner, a well-educated young Chinese that is seen to have complied with it, what sort of gentleman, says the publicity has affected his liability or payback responsibility will the council business dramatically, because numbers are up and have? That is one of the issues the City of Greater down. Care needs to be taken that the issue is not Dandenong raised with us. The concern may be blown out of proportion because the businesses in unnecessary, but it needs to be responded to. question can be damaged when accusations are made and the media becomes involved. As the shadow minister effectively pointed out, the restructuring of local government and the We need an effective set of regulations, as well as diminishing number of environmental health proper processes for implementation, inspection and inspectors means councils will have less capacity to policing. The regulations need to be effectively audit the food safety plans. That is a real concern. implemented so that incorrect information is not Given the demands of compulsory competitive released to the general public and sensationalised by tendering and privatisation, it will be a fairly the media, especially in areas where there are expensive exercise for any council that has to put on pockets of Asian food outlets that some people may staff to audit a plan. The minister needs to respond see as easy targets on which to vent their racist to that concern. attitudes. We have to be careful. The education programs that complement the legislation should The Victorian Meat Authority will inspect those take into account the fact that many people in our premises which deal solely with meat, which makes food industry come from different cultures. a lot of sense. Council inspectors will look after the FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1047

Mr KILGOUR (Shepparton) - I am pleased to thing. I well remember the front page headline support the Food (Amendment) Bill, which has been 'Contaminated milk' on a former Shepparton worked on for many months. I was pleased to hear newspaper. That happened because a milk the comments made by the honourable member for processing company, which has since changed its Springvale, who has a good understanding of health name in an effort to make it more successful, used to and safety regulations. I was particularly pleased to pick up from retailers milk whose use-by date had hear his assurance that he goes to restaurants that expired; it used to then tip the milk back into the serve food that is healthy! I was enticed by the vats and reprocess it. Was it any wonder that honourable member into eating a meal in a Thai environmental health officers who came to check on restaurant in Brisbane, which I enjoyed very much. the factory's milk found it to be contaminated! The It was something I had not done before, but the son-in-law of the then Premier was running that honourable member assured me the restaurant was factory. clean and the food would be okay to eat. I was pleased to hear the honourable member say that that That contamination should not have been allowed to applies to each restaurant he goes to. happen. Certainly the people running the factory had to make amends for its practices. That cost the All jokes aside, this is important legislation that we milk industry in the area dearly because it did not would have liked to see introduced sooner, given need that adverse publicity. some of the problems that have occurred in the food industry, such as salmonella and other food The dairy industry has been responsible. The poisoning. I believe we have come up with Victorian Dairy Industry Authority has inspectors in something that will assure people that the food they the factories. They are not working on the farms so are eating is healthy. much these days because the companies that collect the milk have their own quality assurance people Public health is our major concern. I believe this bill checking it. The milk is graded and farmers are paid will be copied by other states; Victoria will lead the according to those gradings. If a farmer is doing the way on this issue. It is important that rather than wrong thing - that is, if the milk going to the have a fragmented look at our food hygiene we factories does not meet food hygiene standards - he establish a single regulatory regime for the meat and will lose money, which is bad for business and his non-meat sectors of the industry. We should have product. A couple of salmonella outbreaks in the more consistency across the board so that everyone area have been caused by people doing the wrong involved in the food industry fully understands thing. what the industry is all about - that is, they are selling or handling food for people to eat. We must In the past some parts of the milk industry did not ensure we look after the food so that it is healthy think enough about the fact the industry was once it gets onto our plates. handling food. I recall receiving a telephone call from a dairy outside Shepparton. The operator said In the past many sectors of the food industry have he had run out of milk and asked whether he could been considered as responsible. The bill aims to collect milk from Shepparton. When he arrived I ensure that from paddock to plate a regime will be walked towards the coolroom from which he was in place to ensure everyone who handles food does loading milk onto his truck. As I approached I the right thing. Food goes through a chain: the noticed on the front of his vehicle about a 6-inch grower; in many cases, the processor; sometimes a high pile of bird droppings. This man had been wholesaler or a distributor; the retailer; and, most parking his truck in a shed above which was a rafter importantly, into people's homes. Problems can on which swallows had nested. The bird droppings occur at anyone of those stages; unhealthy food can had fallen all over his truck. The dairyman did not cause disease or sickness. We need to ensure that understand that the droppings would constitute a across the board people have a full understanding of health problem. I do not know why the local their responsibilities in their handling of food. inspectors did not pick him up as he drove around the town. We refused to load milk onto his truck For many years the dairy industry has been aware of while it remained in that condition. He then washed those responsibilities - that industry could be his truck; actually, we made him wash it two or ruined overnight because of a salmonella outbreak. I three times a week. When I next visited his dairy I worked in the dairy industry for 18 years. I watched noticed he had built a platform under the rafters to with interest the way governments continued to stop the bird droppings falling onto his truck. regulate and to ensure the industry did the right FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1048 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997

The food company I worked for not only distributed will ensure that people handling food are properly milk but was associated with the Four 'N Twenty trained. If they are not properly trained, they will be pie company in Kensington - a great Australian considered to be not fit and proper people to work in product! On the dozen or so times I visited that the industry. factory I was thrilled at the way the company handled its food. The company was sending its pies When a person now registers or renews with the not only throughout Australia but all over the local municipal council a licence for a food business, world. We knew that when we had Four 'N Twenty he or she must ensure food safety programs are in pies at the footy, they would not affect us adversely. operation. Those programs must be audited by outside auditors. Most operators in the dairy It was interesting to see how Four 'N Twenty industry now have quality assurance programs. We representatives were adamant that the company's are lucky that quality assurance has become an staff training was being conducted properly. Any important part of the food industry and that most of new member of staff had to go through the training the larger food industries are now involved in program. I well remember the instructor saying to quality assurance programs. everybody at a training program, 'Remember, you are producing food for people to eat; remember that Larger food industries are writing manuals that every time you handle a product'. The slightest never existed before. As previous speakers have problem with any product that goes through a said, many people in the food industry had it all in manufacturing chain can cause major problems. The their minds. They knew what had to be done, but slightest mishap in handling an ingredient can cause nothing had been written down. When the guy who trouble. Four 'N Twenty ensures that every had been mixing an ingredient for 20 years suddenly ingredient to be used in its food manufacturing became sick or retired, the person taking over would process is thoroughly checked; it has a quality not have had the same knowledge and, therefore, assurance laboratory. That company replaces any would not handle the food correctly. suspect product. Under the quality assurance program and I expect As the honourable member for Springvale said under the food safety program, procedures will be earlier, many problems with food are not caused by written down to ensure that anybody who does a job the big factories which have food inspectors who are on a particular day will have a manual to refer to to fully aware of the required quality control measures. check how the job is done. That will result in a better They know even a minor problem with an quality of food and better programs in each of our ingredient or a product could force the company off food operations. the market. A company which has its products recalled may never get back onto the market again, Environmental health officers have an important job as has happened with a local smallgoods company. in local councils. They will ensure that each Some of the problems to be addressed arise within registered food premise, wholesaler or distributor smaller wholesalers, processors or retailers. has a food safety program. Those that do not will not be allowed to be involved in the food industry. I have seen the way big companies, such as Four 'N Twenty, handle their products. I have also visited That program must set out steps to avoid the small factories and been disgusted at the way they hazards that can lead to the contamination of food handle their products. On two occasions I rang an and, more importantly, involve the appointment of environmental health officer and asked how long it an appropriate and competent person in that had been since he had visited those establishments industry. If such a person is not already employed, in the northern suburbs of Melbourne. He said, someone will have to be trained to ensure that the 'Some time ago'. I suggested he should immediately person is competent, can train other people and, visit them, which he did. The next time I visited most importantly, can take responsibility in the those factories I noticed changes had been made. operation for ensuring food safety programs Inspectors must know where likely trouble spots are measure up when checked by the auditor. and should attend to them. Appropriate measures must be taken in the handling of all ingredients to ensure that as the product is The bill will require the proprietor of a food mixed with other products it is not contaminated. business - whether it be a retailer, a wholesaler, a processor or somebody who owns a food transport I am sure it will not be long before all businesses will vehicle - to have a full food safety program which comply fully. The government does not expect that FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1049 every food business will immediately comply. The Years ago when you asked for a kilogram of legislation will be gradually introduced over about sausages at the delicatessen, the worker would reach four years. But every food premise is now on notice into the fridge with bare hands, take the sausages, that this is happening. Nobody can say he or she place them onto a piece of paper on the scales and does not know about it. Nobody can say his or her wrap them up. The worker may have washed his or business will not be inspected. At least the her hands before or after weighing the meat, but environmental health officer will not be saying, now the worker picks up the sausages with a plastic 'Remember, next time your registration comes up bag that is folded up his or her arm. The meat is not we will expect you to comply with this ordinance'. It touched by the worker's hands. That is good is important that our industries understand they training. Obviously, the leaders of the big should be now moving to ensure they comply with supermarkets understand what needs to be done. It the standards. was interesting to visit the supermarket to see how people have changed their attitude. It is also important to note that the bill provides for the establishment of the Food Safety Council. It is Mrs Maddigan interjected. important that across Victoria people with expertise can give the minister a full understanding of how Mr KILGOUR - It might be years since that has the new operation is working and whether there are been done in the supermarkets, but such practices any problems. If there are problems, the minister can are still not always followed in the corner stores. quickly make the changes needed. Those people need to follow the leaders in the food industry such as the supermarkets. They must The advisory body, the Food Safety Council, will be ensure that they, too, are doing the right thing. a fully independent body and will not have to kowtow to any particular section of the food It is important that the ability to recall products is industry or support what it wants it to do. The strengthened. We must ensure that a council will advise the minister. It will be chaired by health-threatening product in a supermarket or Professor Mark Wahlquist from Monash University, corner store can be recalled so public health is not who will do an excellent job in ensuring a safe endangered. The fact that the Secretary of the program in our food industry. Department of Human Services will be able to do that strengthens the legislation. Also, the prOvisions Also, a new agency within the Department of regulating the meat industry have been Human Services, Food Safety Victoria, will play an strengthened. Since the Victorian Meat AuthOrity important role in ensuring coordination across was established, it has come a long way in the sectors. In the past the meat industry sector has been handling of meat. I congratulate the chairman of the under a different regulatory regime from the dairy authority, Mr John Watson. I have had a number of sector, smallgoods stores, supermarkets and corner discussions with him about the quality programs he stores. It must be ensured that through Food Safety is introducing through the Victorian Meat Authority. Victoria all those in the food chain understand what Every meat abattoir and processor now has a full they are doing and what they need to do. quality assurance program. They cannot operate unless they have one. From the top to the bottom of Over at least the past three or four years there have the industry, processors must do the right thing. been vast changes in the industry. Last week I was in the supermarket with my wife. I do not often go to However, there are still problems in the distribution the supermarket, but we happened to be shopping chain in the meat industry. Hence the government on the way home from a function at 11 0'dock at will ensure that transport vehicles are registered night. with the authority and do the right thing. Honourable members would recall the photograph Or Napthine interjected. in the newspaper of a man walking out of the back of a truck delivering chickens, with pieces of chicken Mr KILGOUR - I would not have a clue how in his hands. He wore no gloves. It was an much a litre of milk costs. I have not paid for milk in unsavoury image. That sort of behaviour must be a long time. Although I worked in the dairy industry stopped. I am not sure what a litre of milk costs. When shopping at 11 0'dock at night, I noticed particularly Sometimes people have to be protected from their the changes that have been introduced in the own actions. They might not think they are handling delicatessen over the years. food in the wrong way. Therefore, the government is FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1050 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 increasing the maximum penalties particularly for department's National Centre for Disease Control the unlicensed transport of meat. Some people do said: not care about the way they handle meat. They do not care whether they wash their trucks, where they ... the statistics represent only 5 per cent of the cases of park their trucks or whether doors are left open to food poisoning outbreaks because not all cases were flies. Vast improvements are required in this area. reported. And there will be significant improvements because people are fully aware they must do the right thing That is an even more alarming statistic. The article to ensure they remain licensed. Vehicles can be continues: taken off the road by the Victorian Meat Authority and local inspectors to ensure public health is not Or Crerar said food-borne diseases were increasing endangered. The CEO of the Victorian Meat because families were eating out more and there was a Authority can order a truck that is either not greater margin for error when restaurants and registered with the department or not complying takeaway chains prepared thousands of meals. He said with the regulations to be taken off the road. general knowledge of safe food practices have deteriorated over the years. All meat processing chains will come within the ambit of the Meat Industry Act, which is where the 'People don't tend to cook as much as they did, and the principal expertise regarding meat safety lies. A knowledge isn't there about how to prepare foods coordinated approach across the meat industry will safely.' ensure that every facet of the industry is doing the right thing. The bill provides a comprehensive The honourable member for Shepparton touched on framework that ensures that all food grown, education for people handling food, which is processed and sold is as safe as possible. extremely important and should be stressed in the further operation of the legislation. That is what we can ask, and as members of Parliament we must ensure that the legislation can I was concerned when I spoke to a number of people deal with the issues. I congratulate the people who in the food industry and in local government that have framed the legislation forward - the minister they knew very little about the bill. It appears the and all those who have worked on the bill. I fully level of consultation with industry, particularly local support the measure. I hope the passage of the bill government, has been almost negligible, apart from will ensure a safer Victoria. some private agreements and meetings that they arranged between themselves in the last week. The Mrs MADDIGAN (Essendon) - I join my bill was read a second time on 15 October and there colleagues on this side of the house in encouraging has been little time for the community at large to be any legislation that further regulates the food consulted about its provisions. The bill is fairly industry, particularly as there has been an increasing complex and includes substantial changes to the number of food poisoning incidents since the operation of food regulation in small premises in government deregulated the industry in 1994. There this state. It is deplorable that local government, is still considerable community concern arising from which has a strong responsibility in the matter, has the publicity the honourable member for Springvale had so little time for consultation or to have referred to earlier about salmonella poisoning. An questions answered about its concerns. article in the Age of 24 August highlights the problem and makes legislation of this type so Certain provisiOns in the bill may substantially necessary: increase the cost of food safety to small business. The second-reading speech raises concerns about the The incidence of salmonella poisoning report has cost to small retail premises. My electorate of doubled in Victoria in the past year, according to Essendon has very little industry but a large retail federal health department figures. sector and a large expanse of food shops and food preparation shops. Under this legislation each In the first six months of 1997, Victoria recorded 1111 individual shopkeeper has quite a responsibility. salmonella outbreaks compared with 906 for the whole Shopkeepers have to prepare a food safety plan, of 1996. which involves steps to avoid hazards that could cause food contamination on food prepared on the This level of increase must be alarming to anyone in premises. The measure also includes provisions to the community. Dr Crerar from the federal health ensure that raw materials and other ingredients that FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1051 are purchased for food preparation are fit for human and they have very little capacity to absorb any consumption. It also provides the capacity and further costs. As has often been said, small business establishes rules for staff to handle food correctly is the backbone of employment in this state, and includes the requirement to identify the training particularly in my area. The government has not needs of the staff. While there is provision for allowed for proper discussion so that small business councils to prepare a template, there is a fairly operators can determine how they will be affected in substantial amount of information to be gathered, terms of costs associated with running their often by small shops whose proprietors do not have businesses. much expertise in the area and obviously will have to employ consultants or others to do the work for The honourable member for Springvale made a very them. Although there is provision for shops to get good point about some of the unfortunate together and work out food plans and basic publicity -- formulas for food safety, there is still a real concern about the level of costs that will fall on the small Mr Perton - Are you running for preselection? shopkeeper. And, of course, that will be transferred You make a very good point. on to the consumer. The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr A. F. Plowman) - The costs do not finish there for small business. After Order! I ask the honourable member for Doncaster a food safety plan has been drawn up it must be to refrain from interjecting, particularly when they registered with the local council which then has to are not on the subject. hold regular inspections. An audit on top of that is a further step in the process. Councils say quite clearly MI5 MADDIGAN - The honourable member that they do not have the funds to provide more for Doncaster's interjection is in the vein of the pot environmental health officer time to undertake this calling the kettle black. I am sure people would like duty without extra cost because of the process of to hear the honourable member for Doncaster speak compulsory competitive tendering, which the on other topics, but so far he has failed to provide honourable member for Albert Park went through at assurances about his views on other bills before the length earlier. Councils in many areas have had to house. Perhaps he feels far more comfortable about substantially reduce the number of environmental this one where he obviously does not have a conflict health officers; they do not have the capacity to of conscience - if, indeed, he has a conscience. One provide the level of service the bill requires without may wonder! charging a fee for service. The Food (Amendment) Bill is a serious bill and one Although the provisions of the Food (Amendment) which perhaps the honourable member for Bill will be implemented over four years many small Doncaster might like to discuss with some of his shopkeepers will be targeted early because they are shopkeepers, especially if he is seeking preselection the ones dealing with food at high risk of to another place because small business will be contamination; they deal with fresh meats and other strongly affected by these measures. goods - sandwiches and the like. Many small shops are family concerns. In my area they are small milk The honourable member for Springvale aptly bars, delicatessens and pizza shops that do not have presented a clear understanding of how even the capacity or the knowledge to implement change something as obscure as salmonella poisoning can -without having to outlay a fair amount of money, lead to racist views in the community. The sort of and the councils will also charge them. I am publicity that can be given carelessly by the press concerned that there has not been proper can have long-term effects on the financial viability consultation with small shopkeepers; they will be of small businesses. As I said, I am glad to see significantly affected because they do not further regulation in this area, although it is in understand what financial provisions will be placed contrast perhaps to the gaming industry yesterday upon them in the future. Already a number of the where there is less regulation. However, it is good food shops in my area have had significant increases that at least the government has got it right with in charges, particularly waste water charges, which food. The government has not done enough work in only a couple of years ago were substantially examining the breakdown of costs and has not been increased. These people do not make a great deal of prepared to consult with local government. Local money. As I said, they are mostly family enterprises government had an extremely good reputation in its that are being asked to stay open longer and longer work with environmental health officers and has under the government's 24-hour trading legislation, FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1052 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 worked with many people in this area to improve its of salmonella poisoning and other incidents which health plans. created a perception - I think it is only a perception - that Victoria's food protection and It was unfortunate that an outbreak of food safety system was inadequate and that a more poisoning occurred in a municipality in my vigilant system was needed. Although the electorate at a time when the owner of the premises government does not minimise the seriousness of was working through a plan with the council to those outbreaks, it does not believe that perception ensure his practices were safe. In many cases the was justified. When considering what action to take, mishandling of food is not intentional; it is caused the government had to make a philosophic decision by a lack of education and understanding of how about which track to go down. Its decision to some food handling processes should work. The extent is supported by the opposition. It has moved honourable member for Shepparton referred to the away from an inspectorial and punitive system that provision of manuals to people when they start jobs. the government does not think appropriate when When one thinks of the large number of casual dealing with a large number of businesses. Sad employees in food processing establishments of though it is, it must be recognised that whatever many kinds, one is not quite sure how that could regime a government introduces - however operate and to what extent there will be provision draconian, inspectorial or punitive and regardless of for casual employees to be covered by the sort of whether it is educative or not - food-borne illnesses safety standards we would wish to see in food or poisoning will never be eradicated. However, the preparation. public has a right to expect that all those with a stake in the food industry work in collaboration to make The opposition has real concern that there has been Victoria's food supplies as safe as possible. no opportunity to have questions answered about this bill during the short time since its introduction. I refer briefly to Food Safety Victoria, which was It hopes in future the government will discuss mentioned also by the honourable member for Swan proposed legislation with interested parties such as Hill. It is a group that will be responsible for local government whose operations are vitally developing a single integrated and consistent affected by the government proposals. Shopkeepers approach to food safety throughout the entire food in my electorate will not want to find themselves chain. The catchphrase used to describe that is 'from facing increased fees, which very few of them can paddock to plate'. Once the philosophic decision is afford, to make up for what would have been a made to try to protect the public 'from paddock to provision of local government if it did not have to go plate', an educative rather than an inspectorial through the CCT process, and if they had not had approach is required. From that approach spring a such a severe rate cap imposed upon them in the number of decisions, particularly in relation to past. I support increased regulation in the food offences and how one deals with recalcitrants. I will industry. I hope Victorians will see no more reports come back to that later. of the nature referred to by the honourable member for Springvale. The government's approach builds on the internationally established principles of quality Mr DOYLE (Malvern) - My contribution to the assurance and co-regulation, which moves us away Food (Amendment) Bill will be brief. I will address from a heavily regulated environment. As the some of the concerns raised earlier today by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition said, we have Deputy Leader of the OppOSition. I thank the adopted HACCP, the Hazards Analysis Critical opposition for its general support of the bill and Control Points system. Adoption of that believe it will come to understand why the international and Australia-wide approach means government cannot support the amendment certain other decisions flow about how one deals foreshadowed by the Deputy Leader of the with regulating food safety. The government has Opposition. produced guidelines in conjunction with industry associations to ensure that all food establishments It is salutary to reflect on the fact that Australia has adopt food safety programs, that appropriate between 460 000 and 2 300 000 cases of food food-handler training is provided and that poisoning every year. Approximately 600 people a contestable third-party audits are conducted. They year die from food-related poisoning. We are were three points mentioned by the Deputy Leader dealing with a public health problem of the first of the Opposition. I will address each of those and order. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition and the ways the government believes this bill will other speakers referred to outbreaks earlier this year provide adequate protection for the public. FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1053

The public health initiatives through Food Safety Council, a point raised by the honourable member Victoria are to be complemented by the public health for Essendon. It is important to note the constitution initiatives in this legislation. I shall touch briefly on of the Food Safety Council. It will not only advise on the principles of the legislation, which requires all food safety and food standards but, as hoped by the premises to lodge food safety programs with the honourable member for Essendon, will monitor the registration authority, which will be the local operation of this legislation on an ongoing basis and council. It will ensure that all food handlers have advise the minister accordingly. The honourable food hygiene skills appropriate to the businesses member for Essendon can be assured that her final they operate. The principal concern will be to point will be addressed by the bill. identify the points of hazard and potential causes of food poisoning and then to identify the steps One important part - I am not sure whether it has required to avoid those hazards and contaminations. been mentioned; I trust it has - is the ability of the The training and education needs of staff will have secretary of the Department of Human Services to to be addressed. That is a simple process of recall food immediately. Obviously if there is a identifying hazards and then attempting to prevent proven public health risk, the secretary of the them. But when you consider the range, from the department must be able to make an instant decision largest, most high-risk business in the state, right to recall food to protect public health. The secretary down to the smallest business, the application of the is being given an additional power to make a legislation and its timing will have widely divergent statement warning the public about particular types effects on those businesses. of food. It would not be as draconian as a recall, but it would have a salutary effect on public reaction The government will require review and audit of because the secretary would be able to make a public food safety programs, and that double process of pronouncement about, for instance, avoiding review and audit is one of the reasons why the purchasing certain types of food. That will amendment foreshadowed by the Deputy Leader of complement the emergency powers that are already the Opposition is not the way the government in the act. would choose to go. However, I hasten to add that the government agrees with the intention of the I will now deal with the four or five concerns of the amendment, though it would not move us forward, honourable member for Albert Park, which I said I and I will come to that point in a moment. would be pleased to address. The honourable member said there are 30 000 food premises around I return to the idea of why the review and audit the state that will be affected by the legislation, and need to be separated. The appropriately skilled that is true. Their very number militates against any person responsible for the training of food handlers inspectorial and punitive-type arrangement. I do not will differ markedly between very large businesses, wish to lampoon any suggestions from the other which may send someone off to TAFE to be trained side, but the idea of a thousand white vans manned and whose job description could be formulated by a thousand little men in grey coats travelling around an educative role; and the very small throughout the suburbs and country Victoria to businesses where plans are already formulated in inspect any food handling operation at any the head of someone, usually the owner, who knows moment - every vehicle, every premise and every what is currently done to prevent contamination. milk bar and factory - does not bear thinking Those small businesses will be transferring those about. That carmot be done through a snap audit plans to paper and then disseminating to employees process, which is what inspections are about. the steps to avoid hazards. The Department of Human Services will help in promulgating the Even inspecting premises or a vehicle to examine information kits mentioned by the honourable what someone is doing at one particular moment is member for Swan Hill both through in multimedia no guarantee, even under the most stringent and in printed form, so people have something to inspectorial system, that 5 minutes before or base plans on and are not left entirely without 5 minutes hence safety procedures were not being or resources. will not be breached. You cannot sit a good angel on the shoulder of every food handler, every vehicle The government is paralleling developments in dri ver, every milk bar proprietor, and every standards at a national level which is essential to processing plant proprietor and industry worker to keep in step not just with other states but ensure that at all times he or she is doing the right internationally as well. The Food Standards thing. Committee will be replaced by the Food Safety FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1054 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997

If that cannot be done, given the number of cooked meats and uncooked meats together and businesses of varying sizes, we must move away matters concerning poor personal hygiene, all of from an inspectorial regime and the specific offences which attract specific penalties. He then suggested which the honourable member for Albert Park they would no longer be offences under the act. mentioned, to a co-regulatory and educative arrangement. The mechanism we have chosen as the There are two answers to that. The first is that any centrepiece of that arrangement is the annual audit or review of a food safety program will not registration of premises and vehicles. If you do not allow those sorts of practices to be acceptable. For have a food safety program which measures up and example, it would be inappropriate to allow people which has been properly audited, you will be to breach normal hygienic standards. His specific putting your livelihood at risk, because your point was that they will no longer be offences to be registration may not be renewed. applied. There is an answer to that - and there is also a problem with it. To his credit, the honourable member for Albert Park agreed our proposed system will successfully The problem is that he is presuming that just apply to those in the food industry who are trying to because there is a specific offence in the act, an do the right thing, which we would all agree is the inspector will arrive at the right moment, determine vast majority. However, the honourable member that there has been a breach and apply the penalty. made a good point. What do you do with the He is saying an inspectorial system will somehow intransigents and the recalcitrants who are pick those people up on each occasion. In practice I determined not to comply with best practice? My do not believe that will be so, so pragmatically I do view is that the bill and the act contain sufficiently not believe that is the way to proceed. Even if it draconian powers to address those concerns. You were, I point out that the principal act still offers would expect environmental health officers to take a protection. Although the bill does not mention it, particular interest in businesses that have poor track section 19A of the Food Act provides a general records, and they may visit them on a number of description of the requirement that food handlers occasions to ensure they are complying with the keep conditions clean and sanitary. For instance food safety program. If a business is not complying section 19A says: with the program, or if it is repeatedly breaching the audit conditions, the officers have the power to The proprietor of any food premises, food vehicle or recommend that the business be closed food vending machine must ensure that all persons immediately - no mucking around. That is exactly employed or engaged by the proprietor to handle as it should be. unpackaged food at those premises or that vehicle or in connection with that machine - On the one hand there is a kind of co-regulatory (a) keep themselves and their clothing in a clean and power that means that to renew your registration sanitary condition at all times; and you need to comply with the program and all the other provisions, including the audit. But on the (b) take all reasonable care not to render the other hand environmental health officers have the unpackaged food unfit for human consumption or power to act immediately to protect the public by a adulterated while engaging in handling it ... process which could close a business. Things could There is a penalty of 50 units for anyone found not be much more draconian than that, because by guilty of that generic offence. The section stipulates closing down a business you are taking away that a proprietor must not adulterate food and must someone's livelihood. Even recalcitrants would not not allow a food handler, whether in a vehicle or in a be prepared to put up with that. shop, to commit that offence. The type of people the deputy leader mentioned are You can go down one of two tracks. You can try to by their nature repeat offenders. They will not be specifically list every single offence against which people who have come to notice for the first time. you wish to take action - and you would finish up Because of the repetitive nature of their offending with a detailed but not exhaustive list; or you can we will be sure to keep a close eye on them and have a generic proposal that says you cannot threaten them with the exercise of the full power of adulterate food and that it is an offence to do so. the act, if that is what we need to do. The deputy Section 19A of the Food Act addresses the concern of leader made a point, although perhaps mistakenly. the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. He mentioned a number of offences that are referred to in the principal act - for instance, keeping FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

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The Deputy Leader of the Opposition said the The timetable is straightforward. The government legislation strengthens our control over food, but he has set up risk classes. At the very top is the Al risk, is concerned that it will not come into effect until which will encompass high risk non-retail food after the dangerous summer period. I agree with the manufacturers of short-life foods, such as wholesale concerns of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition on meat businesses. There may be something like that. However, the government has put in place a 650 businesses in that class. Particular training program that will help. We intend to have a summer requirements, audit categories and audit frequencies food safety campaign - a type of media education will be in place for those businesses. They will have program - through which we will alert people to to be on line with the legislation by some of the dangers. There will also be targeted 31 December 1998. In the first year we will look at inspections by environmental health officers of the A2 risk class, such as care facilities like hospitals, high-risk premises, which is along the lines nursing homes and child care centres. Again, there suggested by the deputy leader. will be training requirements, audit categories and audit frequencies for that class. The high-risk factors are well known - temperature, storage facilities, cross contamination During year two the high risk non-retail food and personal hygiene. If they are not taken care of manufacturers of long-life food will be looked at and there is a high risk of infection and food also in year two the high-risk retail premises like contamination. I assure the Deputy Leader of the supermarkets, restaurants and caterers will be Opposition and his colleagues that in the immediate looked at. In year 3 we will deal with medium-risk future the Minister for Health will write to the CEOs businesses such as distributors, suppliers, beverage of local councils to suggest that a partnership be manufacturers and retail outlets like cafes, fast-food formed between the government and local outlets, food vehicles and delicatessens. The last government so we can target those areas of high group to come on line will be those that pose a very risk, particularly over the coming summer period. low risk of food contamination such as convenience We believe that given the timetable for the passage stores, health food stores, fruit and vegetable sellers, of the bill a regime will be put in place to help us pre-packed food outlets and so forth. We do have a overcome future problems. specific timetable for the introduction of the requirements of the legislation and those are based As recently as last Monday the Minister for Health entirely on risk categories. These are well known to released information about the food safety plans for the industry. We will be working very hard to small businesses, particularly restaurants and ensure they are aware of their requirements under catering-type organisations. We are already the legislation. beginning the process of raising awareness in the industry and informing the public of what will be The honourable member presumed that many of required under the legislation. We are sending out these matters will take place as a result of the pamphlets with the annual registration notices legislative process whereas we understand the describing the food safety programs and raising administrative and regulatory process will also go awareness of what will be required. The point the hand in hand. Much of the detail has not been deputy leader raised about the high-risk summer written in the bill, but it has been worked out period was a good one, but it is one we have through the excellent work of the department. addressed. I am reminded of one other point the honourable I will address the deputy leader's concern about the member made about auditors. He suggested that it implementation of the legislation. The honourable would be inappropriate to allow proprietors to member for Albert Park said there was no plan or engage auditors because there may be some sort of timetable for the introduction of these changes, but collusion between them under a purely commercial that is not quite accurate. Under its implementation sort of arrangement. I do not know whether the strategy the government will classify premises honourable member for Swan Hill picked that up according to the potential risk they provide to public but I shall mention it briefly before moving on to the health. Firstly, it will oblige businesses that provide amendment the honourable member for Albert Park the greatest risk to adopt food safety programs and foreshadowed. The auditors have to be accredited. the remaining businesses will need to comply with They are independently accredited by national the new laws over the next three years, according to agencies such as the Quality Society of Australasia. their risk classifications. Individual businesses will be able to choose from a highly qualified group of people. It is not as though FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1056 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 they can go out and pick a pet auditor. They will poisoning? What does it say to its own auditor? have to take an independent auditor of very high Where does it go from there? What does the standard indeed! The commerdal nexus about proprietor say? He argues he has a food safety plan, which the honourable member was concerned has he has satisfied the auditor, but he then finds that been broken by the fact that a business will not just audit is not acceptable. A nexus between the get anybody to audit but someone with independent registration authority and the auditor will raise more credentials. problems than the relationship between the proprietor and the auditor. Independence of Given that the honourable member is not in the accreditation will remove conflict of interest. chamber, if he is not satisfied with my explanation I will be happy to provide it during the committee There is one further reason that I believe overrides stage. The honourable member proposes that the all those matters, and that is the co-regulatory following words be inserted: system. We want an auditor who, when auditing a program, will indicate where and in what specific and who is appointed by the registration authority. areas it is necessary to comply with the food safety plan. We want industry to work towards compliance I believe I understand what he is getting at and it is a in a way which it is comfortable with and which worthy sentiment. He argues that we should try to generates confidence. I believe there is suffident break the nexus between the auditor and the independence through the accreditation process and business because that connection may be too close suffident co-regulatory impetus through that for comfort. He suggests that an independent person relationship to get better public health programs. should be appointed and his amendment provides for a connection between the registration For those reasons, although I agree with the authority - or the local council- and the auditor. I sentiments behind the amendment foreshadowed by understand the honourable member's amendment the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, it does not go and his concern about making this process down a track to provide solutions. I hope the independent, but it raises more problems than it honourable member and the opposition will accept mends. If you were to connect audit to the in good faith the government's understanding of the registration authority - that is, the local counru­ protection the honourable member wanted but we you are connecting with the EHOs who go out and have a difference of opinion about the mechanism work with businesses to develop their food strategy by which that goal will be achieved. programs. Then the same employer, the counru, would also be employing the auditors. I am not sure I have gone on far longer than I intended to. I hope I that that nexus is any more useful than the one the covered a number of the concerns raised by the honourable member objected to between business Deputy Leader of the Opposition. The debate has and the auditor, which does not even have the been constructive and at a high level. It shows the distance I have just described to the house with the way in which this Parliament can work together - auditor being independently accredited. as it often does - to reach agreement about outcomes with proper discussion about the Further, when the registration authority - that is, mechanisms to protect the public. I thank the the counru - decides to renew the registration of a opposition for its support and wish the bill a speedy business, which it must do each year, it has to check passage. compliance with the food safety plan. If it appoints the auditor, does it then not have a vested interest in Mr CAMERON (Bendigo West) - I recognise the compliance with the food safety plan? It is the body background to food inspection, which involved the reviewing the food safety plan and it is also the body deregulation of the food industry in 1994. At that employing the person checking compliance with the time the honourable member for Albert Park said food safety plan. I argue that that possibility creates there would be problems. At the time the a different vested interest and conflict that does not government was told that by deregulating the food quite get to the independence the honourable industry requirements problems would occur. They member seeks. subsequently did occur, which confirmed precisely what the government was told. Finally, under his scheme the counru would appoint an auditor to review the food safety plan. What does The problem in Victoria earlier in the year may not the council do if it is unhappy with the audit have been as serious if the government had not gone because there has been an outbreak of salmonella on its deregulation binge in 1994. FOOD (AM ENDM ENT) BILL

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An additional problem with the deregulation of the government inspection. The trouble is that that is not food industry has been the 40 per cent reduction in resonated around the world! Yesterday we heard the number of environmental health officers at the about a significant development with the HACCP local council leveL That has occurred as a result of system when the Americans made comments about the introduction of CCT during the reign of the Australian meat. I will refer to those comments government-appointed commissioners. It is because we have to realise what the Americans are inevitable that fewer health inspectors will result in saying. The United States is the home of private more health problems slipping through the net. On enterprise, but it does do not like the concept of a any analysis that is what occurred earlier this year privatised food inspection system. with the salmonella outbreaks, which caused a great deal of concern throughout the community. The United States Food Safety and Inspection Service has written to the Australian Quarantine One of the results of those outbreaks is that people Inspection Service saying that the Australian lose confidence in small goods companies. Some government's proposal to deregulate and take smallgoods companies conduct themselves properly, government inspectors out of the meat inspection but we need a system to cover all of them. The system in Australia is grossly unacceptable. Castlemaine smallgoods company, which is in my electorate, is a very good company that was an Dr Napthine interjected. innocent victim of the problems earlier in the year, as no doubt were a number of others. People Mr CAMERON - I will come back to the stopped ducking out to buy ham sandwiches minister's interjection because he is trying to paint it because they lost confidence in the ham and salad as a trade issue, not a health issue. The fact is he is sandwich industry, to use a broad example. wrong. AQIS has said we will continue with the existing system to satisfy the United States Having a good food inspection system is important regulatory body, which means that trade will not only for public confidence but for the industry continue in the normal way. So in that sense it is not itself. It means that properly run businesses such as a trade matter, because trade will continue in the the Castlemaine smallgoods company do not find normal way. The only difference is that the United themselves the victims of a downturn in trade that is States says it does not like our deregulated system! not of their doing. In his second-reading speech the minister makes it clear that the new arrangements Dr Napthine - They want to add costs on to our are: system.

... based upon an understanding of the internationally Mr CAMERON - This is what the Americans recognised principles of HACCP (pronounced 'hassip'), have to say about the deregulation of the meat or 'hazard analysis of critical control points'. These industry. I quote from an article in the Age that preventative measures provide a more effective refers to a letter from Mr Thomas Billy, who wrote to method of ensuring that products, including food, are AQIS in the following terms: safe than do measures that rely solely on end-product testing or on prescriptive legislation and government ... while the controls proposed were adequate, the inspection. government oversight necessary to ensure they were implemented was not. We are told that that is what HACCP is about and that the new system is based on it. The opposition Consequently, the United States will not accept meat has some concerns about the legislation, but after the imported from Australian establishments that debacle of the 1994 deregulation there will no doubt participate in project 2 (self-regulation) trials as they are be more amendments. Although the opposition does presently planned. not endorse the bill as the best way to go, it recognises that we are moving towards a better Project 2 was the name of the Australian deregulated system - that is, from very little regulation to system. Mr Billy also stated: something more. That is why the opposition supports the legislation. The extreme reduction of federal oversight proposed by Australia in project 2 does not, in our view, provide As I said, the legislation is based on the HACCP adequate assurance of industry performance over time system, which the government tells us is fantastic in producing safe and wholesome meat. and far better than prescriptive legislation and FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

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That is what one of our major trading partners has to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition wanted to say about the system. break that nexus, that it was necessary to have independent inspectors. That is what the Americans Dr Napthine -Is that what Wally Curran gave have been telling us. That is exactly what the federal you? It came straight from Wally Curran, did it? government was forced to accept yesterday, yet this government is pressing ahead with the legislation Mr CAMERON - You have to say this about the rather than listening to the legitimate concerns poor old minister, he harps and he barks but -- raised by the Deputy Leader of the OppOSition.

Dr Napthine - Where did you get it from? I urge the government to acknowledge that had it listened in 1994 to the Deputy Leader of the Mr CAMERON - Yesterday morning I was in Opposition, we would not have had the problem to Bendigo. I went to the cenotaph, like many the extent we did earlier this year. The government honourable members, to lay a wreath. When I was should at last recognise that in the Deputy Leader of returning to Melbourne I was listening to the the Opposition it has somebody who can give advice Country Hour on the ABC. No doubt the minister has and put the government on the right path. The heard it from time to time. I will refer to the extract government ignored advice once before; it mucked it from the Internet: up totally. It must now recognise that its system caused enormous problems. It is trying to patch up a The Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service has system but it has barely started on the path to a good confinned that one of Australia's biggest red meat system. markets, the United States, has rejected the Australian new meat inspection system. The US food inspection It is time the government recognised that the Deputy service has written to AQIS, saying it could not agree Leader of the Opposition was on the ball in 1994, with the new HACCP system ... and is still on the ball, in believing that it is important to break the nexus between the auditors There you have it! The poor minister is flapping and the private companies, to put in place a solid about, but the fact is that the federal Minister for system so we will not have repeated disease Primary Industries and Energy, John Anderson, said outbreaks. yesterday that he did not want to do anything to jeopardise Australian trade. He said that the old Only today I was handed a copy of a press release system will continue to apply - in other words, issued yesterday by the Community and Public trade will continue. Despite that, the Minister for Sector Union - no doubt, good friends of the Youth and Community Services would rush off in minister! That union has been emphasising the his privatisation and deregulation mania and have importance of a strong government in its trade us introduce this system across the length and dealings. It applauds the commonwealth breadth of the nation. If that happened we would government's decision to finally accept the USA's not be exporting meat to the United States. requirements not to deregulate the industry. However, the union accurately states that Australian That may be what the minister would like to consumers will reap the benefit of a higher standard happen, but I assure him that that is not the view of of protection demand by the US decision because most Australians. They want to continue to export 60 per cent of the meat produced by abattoirs is their produce to the US because it earns them destined for export. However, that is a double revenue. The minister's reaction shows the extent to standard because the businesses that do not export which the privatisation and deregulation mania has are not obliged to meet that requirement. We end up gripped the government. Unfortunately, it has with a dual-track system, firstly, with the stricter gripped the government so hard that it is unable to commonwealth government requirements; and see the consequences of its actions. secondly, with the criteria that the government has for food outlets of a lesser hygienic standard. The The government is basing its proposals on a system government should seriously examine the bill and which has been given the thumbs down by one of expand its provisions. the world's leading export countries - that is, the United States of America. The honourable member I refer to the regulations governing food transport for Malvern said the Deputy Leader of the vehicles that will be implemented by this legislation. Opposition was concerned about the relationships Earlier this year there were instances of food between auditors and private companies and that transport vehicles being not properly refrigerated, FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1059 but now under this regime all food transport recognition of the fact that we had moved to vehicles must be refrigerated. Nowadays many packaged, frozen food, and so on. Today there has trucks have affixed to their sides devices which been a further move to a greater emphasis on regularly record the temperatures inside the trucks. takeaway food, prepacked meals and people eating For example, you could read a print-out after a more frequently in restaurants. refrigerated vehicle had travelled for, say, 3 hours; if somebody turned off the cooling mechanism during Now, 14 years later, and with a number of concerns that trip, a noticeable dip in the graph of being raised recently about food hygiene standards, temperature readings would be obvious. I hope a the Victorian government took the lead in Australia system will be put in place so that the temperatures by launching in last April the Victorian Food in all trucks can be monitored while they are on the Hygiene Strategy. That foreshadowed amendments road making deliveries. to the Food Act, which we are now dealing with in the bill, including changes to the Meat Industry Act. I endorse the comments of the Deputy Leader of the The amendments enable the introduction of new Opposition. I urge the government to take up his safety requirements in Victoria pending the sensible considerations and to consider the problems finalisation of a national approach proposed by the with the hazard analysis of critical control points Australia New Zealand Food Authority. That has (HACCP) system which was exposed so been necessary. The Victorian government supports dramatically yesterday and which has led to the that move. federal government being forced to back down and recognise the faults. In his second-reading speech the minister said the bill is a single integrated framework which will be Mrs SHARDEY (Caulfield) - I have much established to involve all levels of government, pleasure in supporting the bill. The need for stages of preparation, processing and sale of food. I comprehensive and appropriate food laws at federal will not go into further detail, but I must say that and state levels goes back to probably 1975 when apart from the prOvisions of the bill the main focus health ministers at the state and federal levels needs to be educational, as is happening through formed a working party to draw up model food this legislation. I would also like to ensure that legislation for Australia. A national model food act consumers take responsibility for the way they was agreed upon in about 1980 by the health handle food within their homes. That fact has not ministers. A commitment to that model was agreed been mentioned today. to by the then Victorian health minister under Premier Hamer. The model act at the time agreed to It is important that everyone in a family or home a number of principles although there was situation who is responsible for the buying and recognition of the fact that legislation would vary preparation of food also understands the necessity from state to state, particularly on enforcement and of ensuring they use basic hygienic methods. I penalties. understand that an education program of which we should be mindful is available through the school A food bill was finally introduced in Victoria in system. December 1982 by the former Labor government. Unfortunately, it was subjected to about The opposition raised a few issues. I am always 175 amendments and a new clean bill was amused when the opposition says it supports a bill reintroduced in 1983 by the then health minister, but then spends much time criticising almost every Tom Roper. That bill contained a number of aspect of it. provisions not reflected in other state jurisdictions but was considered to be a leading piece of Mr Thwaites - Constructive criticism. legislation for its time. The legislation provided a focus for model food and hygiene regulations MI5 SHARDEY - No, not always. Concern was covering food standards, packaging and labelling. raised about the implementation time being too The areas of particular difference from other states long. It is my understanding that high-risk in the 1984 bill related to administrative enforcement industries and businesses will be the first cabs off with a focus on local government. the rank. Their food safety plans will have to be implemented by January 1999. That shows there had been a movement in Australian terms of the way food was consumed The opposition claimed that there had been a lack of which brought about that legislation. It was consultation with industry groups. I have a list of FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1060 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 the groups consulted on the bill, including the Kingdom, the United States of America and other Victorian Meat Authority, the Municipal Association Australian states shows that Victoria's record is very of Victoria, the Australian Medical Association, the good. Based on the 1995 figures and the latest Australian Consumers Association, the Victorian figures for 1996, Victoria has the lowest rate of Dairy Industry Authority board, supermarkets and salmonella infection of all the Australian states, regional smallgoods manufacturers. It is not which we can clearly be proud of. Although debate appropriate to say the government has not consulted has concentrated on the salmonella problems, they on the bill. The bill has taken a long time to come to must be seen in the context of the figures that clearly the Parliament, and there has been adequate show that Victoria has a better record than any other consultation. Australian state.

Members opposite have claimed that it is dangerous That does not mean we should rest on our laurels. not to have food inspectors. There will be We must continue to seek to improve food safety so appropriate sanctions and inspectorial systems in Victoria can continue in its leadership position, as place, although they are not called that in the bill. has been the case with most aspects of life under this High-risk businesses may well be audited two to government. The legislation will enable Victoria to four times a year. Environmental health officers will continue to lead Australia and, I suggest, the world be visiting them annually to ensure their food safety in food safety. plans are in place. The legislation provides that each year food I do not believe that regulation in itself is any businesses must present food safety plans that guarantee that standards will be met. The bill relies identify the hazards or risk points in their food on a strong inspectOrial system. It contains sanctions handling procedures. The plans must include the so that if the regulations are contravened the actions the businesses will take to reduce or businesses concerned can be closed down. Concern eliminate those risks. Businesses have a vested was expressed about businesses appointing their interest in eliminating the risks associated with own auditors, the suggestion being that it will not food-borne illness, and the food safety plans will work. As has already been mentioned, a list of give them a much better understanding of how to do accredited auditors has been made available. Those so. The plans will be reviewed regularly and audited auditors must have the appropriate training, by independent food safety auditors. The bill also although the admission has been made that perhaps establishes the Food Safety Council, which will more people need to be trained for the job. provide high level professional advice to the Minister for Health on a number of measures As time is passing and the house wishes to go into including food recall provisiOns and the improved committee, I conclude my remarks by saying I wish control of meat transport vehicles. the bill speedy passage. It is timely and its implementation will provide proof of its success. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition raised the implementation strategy. The supporting documents Or NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and show the way in which the program will be Community Services) - I thank the many implemented over the next four years. Food honourable members who have contributed to the premises will be classified according to potential debate. The government appreciates the opposition's risk. Those with the highest level of risk will have support for the amendments and for the general their plans implemented first, with the rest being thrust of what it is seeking to achieve, which is to progressively implemented across the industry. improve the safe handling of food throughout Victoria. We want to maintain and enhance the The honourable member for Essendon made a public's confidence in our food industry. typical Labor Party contribution to debate. She said the government needs to do more about food safety While there has been a great deal of concentration on but that businesses and shires should not face any the few outbreaks of food poisoning that have increased charges as a result. She wants more occurred, particularly salmonella food poisoning, I inspectors and increased safety, but she does not point out that Victoria has a good track record. want shires or businesses to pay for them. The Figures show that Victoria leads Australia in food honourable member for Essendon never gets to the safety and in the prevention, investigation and bottom line that shows who pays. Although it is surveillance of food-borne illness. A comparison fortunate that she will never be in government, the with salmonella infection rates in the United FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1061 experience would help her to come to that independent food auditors. As the honourable understanding. member for Bendigo West has pointed out, the Australian food authority has rejected this concept Clearly, there will be some costs associated with the of self-regulation. The opposition is of the view that development of food safety plans and in the training to protect public health we ought to ensure that food of food handlers, who will be an integral part of the auditors are completely independent and, therefore, plans. There will be a small cost on business, but ought to be appointed by the registering authority. there will be enormous benefits to those same businesses through the increase in consumer Further in relation to clause 5, I make a few technical confidence in food safety. The training of food comments which are important if we are to ensure handlers will also result in increased productivity. food safety. Proposed section 19D(g) appears to be Business owners will also benefit through reduced restricted to adulterated food or food unfit for waste and better management regimes. human consumption; it does not make any provision for the recall of damaged, deteriorated or perished In conclusion, I highlight the role of environmental food. I hope the government re-examines that health officers, who will be vital to the process. They provision. It may be appropriate to make will be required to inspect food premises at least amendments while the bill is between here and once a year to ensure the food safety plans are another place so that food that is damaged, appropriate. They will monitor the plans and ensure deteriorated or perished can also be subject to a staff are properly trained. That will improve quality proper plan for recall. control at the environmental health officer and council levels and ensure Victorians are at minimum Clause 5 proposes to insert many sections into the risk of food-borne illness. act commencing with section 19C. All of those provisions concern matters that can be dealt with by As a consequence people will have greater the council by way of refusal or revocation of confidence in the food industry and in our registration. It is my view and the view of some back-paddock-to-plate processes. Victoria will have experts in the field that if there is a breach of those higher quality controls and better outcomes than it obligations there ought to be an option to treat those has now, and it will continue to lead Australia and breaches by way of a prosecution, not necessarily by the world in food safety and food standards. I cancelling the whole registration. Cancellation of the commend the bill to the house. registration is a most draconian step. An intermediate step is necessary so that the council can Motion agreed to. prosecute the premises rather than cancel its licence in the event of a breach of the food safety plan. Read second time. Revocation and suspension of registration have always been regarded as the last resort in Committed. enforcement. It is sensible to maintain prosecution as an alternative. The situation ought to be considered Committee in terms of the auditor who cannot be prosecuted for failing to comply with what he is required to do Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to. under those proposed sections, starting with 19C. All that is at risk is the certification of the auditor. In Clause 5 the opposition's view the government should consider introducing offence provisions so that there Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - I move: is another option for the registering authorities other than the cancellation of licences. Clause 5, page 12, line 18, after "or vehicle" insert "and who is appointed by the registration authority". Proposed section 195(2) relates to conflicts of interest that prohibit employees of businesses from carrying I have already advised the chamber the purpose of out the audits, but it does not appear to prohibit a the amendment is to ensure that the food auditors family member. A father, son, wife or daughter who have a role under this regulatory scheme are could carry out an audit on the family's business, appointed by the registering authority and not by which is a conflict of interest. the food premises. Having those auditors appointed by the premises can lead to a conflict of interest Dr NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and where such food auditors may not be as vigilant as Community Services) - In his contribution the FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

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honourable member for Malvern addressed a The other issues raised by the Deputy Leader of the number of the issues that have been raised by the Opposition concern the recall of damaged food and Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the debate and deteriorated or perished products. That issue can be in his speaking to the amendment. The honourable looked at while the bill is between here and another member for Malvern said the bill proposed that the place as can conflict of interest in proposed audit will be conducted by an approved food safety section 195. Some of the Deputy Leader of the auditor who is a person trained and accredited as a Opposition's concerns are worthy of further food safety auditor. That person must have a degree discussion. I am sure the Minister for Health and his of expertise, independence and skill in the audit parliamentary secretary will take those issues on capacity or their professionalism is on the line. It board to determine whether any further action is would therefore be appropriate for that auditor to necessary. have a relationship to the food business similar to a major audit firm when auditing the books of a Committee divided on amendment: business. Because of their professionalism and independence the auditor will provide a Ayes, 28 professional quality audit so the concerns that are Andrianopoulos, Mr Haenneyer, Mr raised by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition are Baker, Mr Hamilton, Mr unfounded. Batchelor, Mr Hulls,Mr Bracks, Mr Kosky, Ms The honourable member for Malvern has already Brumby,Mr Langdon, Mr (Teller) discussed the positive link between the auditor and Cameron, Mr (Teller) Leighton, Mr the operator of a food business. An auditor can Campbell,Ms Lim,Mr provide advice, assistance and an educative role in Carli,Mr Maddigan, Mrs (Teller) managing a business and its accounts. The approved Cole,Mr Micallef,Mr food audit can provide a positive input role in Ctmningham, Mr Mildenhall, Mr improving food safety and handling in a business. Davies,Ms Savage,Mr The outcomes we seek to achieve will result in better Dollis,Mr Seitz, Mr food handling, safety and consumer confidence Garbutt, Ms Thwaites, Mr improving the link between the auditor and the Gillett, Ms Wilson,Mrs operator. If the Deputy Leader of the Opposition's suggestion is adopted such a link may not be as well Noes, 49 established or as effective as the link between the Andrighetto, Mr McNamara, Mr business itself. Ashley,Mr Maughan,Mr Burke, Ms (Teller) Napthine, Or If the food auditor who checks the food. safety plan Clark,Mr Paterson, Mr is appointed by the food registration authority the Dean, Or Perrin, Mr registration authority is in a difficult position - a Dixon, Mr Perton, Mr conflict of interest position - when it then goes to Doyle,Mr Peulich, Mrs finalise its approval of that food safety plan because Elder, Mr Phillips,Mr its own appointed auditor will have already Elliott, Mrs Reynolds, Mr conducted an audit; there is a double checking Finn,Mr Richardson, Mr system. Under the system proposed in the Gude,Mr Rowe,Mr legislation the independent food safety auditor has Henderson, Mrs Ryan,Mr looked at the food safety plan and given it his or her Honeywood, Mr Shardey, Mrs approval. It goes to the municipality or to the Jasper, Mr Smith, Mr E.R. (Teller) registration authority and its environmental health Jenkins,Mr Smith, Mr I.w. officer can look at it again. If they discern some John,Mr Spry,Mr deficiencies, knowing the business and having Kennett,Mr Steggall, Mr inspected it, they can seek discussion or refuse the Kilgour, Mr (Teller) Stockdale, Mr registration of the business until the conditions are Lean,Mr Tehan,Mrs improved. The second line of accounting and Leigh,Mr Thompson, Mr checking is lost if the registration authority is Lupton,Mr Traynor,Mr responsible for appointing the food auditor and, McArthur, Mr Treasure, Mr therefore, has a vested interest in just ticking the McCall, Ms Wade,Mrs food audit. McGill,Mrs Wells,Mr Maclellan, Mr FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1063

proposed new paragraph (d), is to insert in the act a Amendment negatived. provision that gives the secretary the power to appoint authorised officers for the purposes of the Oause agreed to. act, as described by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. Its intent is to authorise persons who are Sitting suspended 6.30 p.m. until 8.03 p.m. already appointed as inspectors or authorised officers under other acts, in addition to authorising Clause 6 officers or employees of the public service or a public statutory body. Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - The opposition is concerned about proposed new section 20(1)(d), The intention is not based on some conspiracy which says the secretary may authorise in writing theory. Instead - I give the following as an people who are appointed to be inspectors or example - it means inspectors authorised under the authorised officers or people having similar Meat Industry Act can be licensed to enter premises functions under any other act. Essentially that means to determine whether meat is fit for human people who are not council health officers or fully consumption. The purpose of the proposed new qualified officers can be appointed as authorised section is to give flexibility to and authorise officers officers under the act. That opens the floodgates to who may be authorised under a different act so they the privatisation of environmental health officer have powers similar to those of inspectors such as positions. EHOs under the Food Act.

The proposed new section seems to provide for the There is no conspiracy. The proposed new section is privatisation of the inspection service, as has already simply intended as an enabling legislation to allow occurred with domestic meat inspection, as a result already accredited inspectors to also have powers of which private persons have been appointed as under the act. Given what we are doing with the authorised officers. That is totally unacceptable. It Victorian Meat Authority, the Meat Industry Act is gives rise to the sort of problem the United States probably the best example of the way in which we has raised about its relationship with Australia in would use the power. objecting to the use of private auditors in the export meat market. Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I reiterate the concerns which have been expressed by The United States has told Australia that it will the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, who is also the refuse to accept Australian meat if the meat is shadow minister for health and community services. subject only to private sector oversight. There are The issues he has raised go to the heart of the good reasons for that. The United States can teach us legislation and to the heart of food quality standards a lot. If the United States is refusing to take our meat and Victoria's reputation as a provider of quality because of its concerns about the effect of private food. involvement on meat safety, it is important that those concerns are raised. We all know the statistics, and we all realise the importance of the proposed new section. The I ask the government to consider whether there is document released a couple of days ago by the any need for proposed new paragraph (d), which Deputy Premier called the Golden Age of Agriculture provides an opportunity for the privatisation of food highlights the fact that the Asian food market is inspection services. I also ask it to explain why it is expanding by around $20 billion a year. Agricultural not happy with the existing system of council food production in this state has a turnover of $5.5 billion health officers - although there are so few left and the food sector has a turnover of $12 billion. probably because the councils have sacked so many! That highlights quality standards and particularly The clause raises grave concerns. I am sure other the reputation of Victoria and Australia generally. opposition members will want to speak on it. Mr Steggall interjected. Mr DOYLE (Malvern) - I take note of the concerns of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition Mr BRUMBY - The honourable member for and hasten to reassure him that it is not a matter of Swan Hill says this is about hygiene standards, but the government's not being satisfied with the the principle that is being applied here, which the existing system of environmental health officers. The parliamentary secretary has just confirmed, is the purpose of proposed new section 20(1), particularly same as the principle applied in relation to domestic FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1064 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 meat inspection. This goes to the heart of the act. Or Napthine interjected. Page 9 of today's Age has an article headlined 'US rejects private inspection of meat', which states: Mr BRUMBY - I am upholding the ruling of the Chairman, thank you. That is what he said to do. The United States, home of private enterprise, has blocked the full privatisation of Australia's quarantine Or Napthine interjected. services by refusing to allow privately inspected meat into its markets. Mr BRUMBY - Why don't you relax? Are you a bit stressed today like the rest of them? Are you The decision was conveyed to Australia at the weekend going to be the next - a by-election in Portland? by the administrator of the US Food Safety and Inspection Service, Mr Thomas Billy, in a letter The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! The expressing concern over the 'sudden and drastic Leader of the Opposition, on clause 6. The minister reduction in federal oversight' under Australia's will refrain from interjecting. system of industry self regulation. Mr BRUMBY - Clause 6 provides that the Or Naptbine - On a point of order, Mr Acting secretary of the department may authorise people to Chairman, I direct your attention to the fact that the inspect food and food premises. The opposition has committee is dealing with clause 6, which deals with major concerns, which were expressed earlier in the the secretary's authorisation of officers for the debate, about the legislation. This clause goes to the purpose of the act. The Leader of the Opposition is nub of the legislation. It is tantamount to the clearly making a second-reading speech. If he was privatisation of the system. Tonight the opposition not here during the second-reading debate he made it clear that it believes the legislation should missed his opportunity to give a broad-ranging go further. It should be stricter and it should be speech. In committee, his responsibility is to confine more highly regulated. Clause 6 effectively provides himself to matters pertaining to clause 6. We are not for the deregulation of the system. It raises concerns talking about the purposes of the bill; we are talking about the rejection by the United States of our about clause 6. I ask you, Mr Acting Chairman, to system of meat inspection. I submit that if the US bring the Leader of the Opposition back to the clause. knew this bill was going through the Victorian Parliament it would have concerns about the Mr BRUMBY - On the point of order, Mr Acting inspection of food and food premises in this state. Chairman, it would be drawing an extraordinarily long bow to say that I was making a second-reading In a press conference concerning deregulation and speech. I am talking about clause 6, which concerns privatisation of the inspection service, the federal authorised officers, the appointment and delegation Minister for Primary Industry, Mr Anderson, said of officers and potentially the privatisation of the the federal government will modify its proposals inspection service. In his contribution the and method of inspection. That begs the question in honourable member for Malvern likened its relation to clause 6: if the federal minister - a provisions to what occurred with domestic meat person for whom I have a high regard - is saying inspection. I am saying that the system of inspection the federal level intends to modify inspection that is to be applied by clause 6 is the same system of methods because they are unsuitable and inspection that is being applied to the domestic and unacceptable to the United States and if the federal export meat inspection service. I am pointing out government is moving towards a more regulated that this clause will damage our capacity to export. I government control system, will the minister and the have referred to an article in the Age. Victorian government do the same with this legislation? The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr A. F. Plowman) - Order! I have heard enough The opposition urges the government to do so on the point of order. I was carefully noting clause 6 tonight. Given the events of recent days the to ensure that the Leader of the OppOSition stayed legislation should be held in abeyance. The minister within it. However, I believe he was straying from it smirks. and I ask him to return to it. I uphold the point of order. Or Napthine interjected.

Mr BRUMBY - Mr Acting Chairman, I am Mr BRUMBY - I hope it is. Perhaps the minister keeping strictly within the bounds of clause 6. will be good enough to give that undertaking at the FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1065 conclusion of the debate on clause 6, I would be proved right - and that is why we are debating this happy with that. I stress again that clause 6 deals amending legislation. with the methods of inspection and delegation. We welcome the legislation as an improvement, but The ACTING CHAIRMAN the proposed new section raises serious issues about (Mr A. F. Plowman) - Order! I have ruled on this the degree of delegation, deregulation and possible matter before. Clause 6 is specific and I ask that the privatisation of the system. There are elements that Leader of the Opposition return to clause 6 - and can create unnecessary and adverse publicity that specifically to those officers the secretary may Wldermines the reputation of our food industry, authorise. which is so vital to the future of the state. As I said, we want a commitment from the minister. If we can Mr BRUMBY - Exactly. Clause 6 enables the get that commitment we can finish with the clause. secretary to authorise any person to undertake the process of inspection. I point out that the broad Honourable members interjecting. method of inspection has now been rejected by the United States, and the federal minister says it will be Mr BRUMBY - We can keep gOing, there are modified. TItis development occurred overnight and plenty of other opposition members who want to appeared in the newspaper only today. In those speak on clause 6. circumstances I hope the minister will give an Wldertaking - the Leader of the House suggested it Honourable members interjecting. could be examined while the bill is between houses - that if there is a change in the nature of Mr BRUMBY - I hope we can get that inspection, delegation and privatisation at the undertaking from the minister. It is a reasonable federal level, he will assess its relevance to this request. If the minister wants, I can provide him legislation. The opposition wants consistent food with the transcript of today's press conference at inspection legislation at both the federal and state which the federal minister, John Anderson, outlined levels. the concerns relating to the US meat market. It is a major issue. If the minister is prepared to give a That is the crux of the legislation. I believe it is commitment that he will look at it in the light of the crucial in the context of the Asian food market, modifications proposed by the federal minister, I which is growing by about $20 billion a year. We will be happy. have to maintain the highest possible standards of food inspection. The publicity that attaches to every In a truly bipartisan way, all honourable members single case where there is a breach of food inspection share our concern that we have the best possible standards, perhaps because a delegated individual food industry that can get the state into export does not undertake his responsibilities as well as he markets and generate jobs and opportunities for all should-- Victorians. We all share that aspiration, but we need standards and quality. The last thing we want is Mr Gude interjected. slip-ups along the way. That is why clause 6 is relevant, and I hope the minister will be able to give Mr BRUMBY - We are supporting the bill. that commitment.

Mr Gude interjected. Or NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and Community Services) - I move: Mr BRUMBY - We are not in a second-reading debate. What we have said -- That progress be reported.

Honourable members interjecting. Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - We have had just a few hours debate on the legislation. The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! The Leader of the Opposition, on clause 6. Mr McArthur - You support it.

Mr BRUMBY - There is an element of deja vu Mr BRUMBY - What a terrible thing it is to about all this. The same thing happened with the support it! If we opposed it -- fust bill. We raised our concerns then and we were FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1066 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997

The ACTING CHAIRMAN Mr Kennett interjected. (Mr A. F. Plowman) - Order! The Leader of the Opposition, through the Chair. Mr BRUMBY - Did you have a look at yourself on television tonight and last night? Mr BRUMBY - We have had just a few hours debate on the legislation. We have been going The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! The through the bill in committee, and we are now Leader of the Opposition, through the Chair. debating clause 6. However, there are other clauses that we want to comment on. We want to Mr Kennett interjected. ensure-- Mr BRUMBY - Those comments were made in Honourable members interjecting. good faith. This can be rectified simply and we can get on with other business if the minister gives an The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! The undertaking that he will examine the matter and the minister has moved that progress be reported. I ask comments that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition the Leader of the Opposition to return to the debate and I have made in good faith. The federal minister on the question. has said he will modify his inspection proposals. If he modifies them, will that have an impact on Mr BRUMBY - We are now in the unfortunate Victoria and will it affect the legislation? That is position where comments about clause 6 have been what we want the minister to look at. made in good faith -- Honourable members interjecting. Honourable members interjecting. Mr BRUMBY - The Leader of House said that Mr BRUMBY - We are now in a difficult could be looked at. We simply want that position. Comments have been made in good faith commitment. Until that commitment is given, this about a clause that goes to the heart of the bill and to sort of jackboot approach, whereby debate is just the deregulation and privatisation of the inspection gagged-- system. Those comments relate to what in anybody'S language is a prominent article in today's national The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! I ask the press under the heading 'US rejects private Leader of the OppOSition to come back to the inspection of meat' -- question before the committee, which is that progress be reported. The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! The Leader of the Opposition should return to the Mr BRUMBY - That is what I am relating my question that progress be reported, which I believe comments to. I am saying the jackboot approach of he has been straying from. gagging debate in this Parliament is not acceptable. If the minister were prepared to say he would look Mr BRUMBY - Mr Chairman, I am making the at the matters we have raised and at what the federal point that we have had inadequate debate on the minister has said, we would be happy and we could clauses of the bill. I have raised genuine matters of get on with other business. We have made genuine concern about clause 6, which is the guts of the bill points, as we did with the first bill. The reason we as it applies to the inspection system. All we want is are debating these amendments is that the something that was suggested by the Leader of the government mucked up its earlier legislation. House, which is that the matter be examined while the bill is between this house and the other place. To avoid the possibility of mucking it up again, of Instead of giving a simple commitment that he embarrassing the federal minister and the federal would look at what the federal minister said and government and of damaging our trade reputation, consider its application to clause 6, the minister is we ask that the minister give us the commitment we trying to gag the debate by moving that progress be are saying ought to be given. Then we can move on reported - as though these are not genuine matters to other business. That is why we are opposing the and as though the 12-page transcript of the federal gagging of the debate. minister's press conference is not something that ought to be considered by the state government. Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - The Minister for Won't the minister look a fool if the federal Youth and Community Services has alleged that for government -- some reason the motion ought to be supported FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1067 because there was an agreement that debate on the The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! I do not bill be completed by 6.30 p.m. accept the point of order. I ask the Deputy Leader of the Opposition to return to the issue before the I did everything I could to complete the debate by committee - that is, that progress be reported. 6.30 p.m. It was clear -- Mr THWAlTES - The issue is whether progress Mr Kennett interjected. should be reported and whether the committee has finished its job. Mr THWAlTES - 'This is on the question of time. It was clear in the progress of the Mr McArthur - No, it is not. committee -- Mr THWAlTES - Whether it has done its job - The ACTING CHAIRMAN you get up on your feet when it is your turn! The (Mr A. F. Plowman) - Order! The Premier will committee has not been able to progress properly cease interjecting. because the government does not have its legislative program in order. Mr Kennett interjected. Mrs Tehan interjected. Mr lHWAlTES - The Premier seems to want to intimidate the Chair into making an order. I am Mr THWAlTES - In a muted way the Minister talking about the question of time and whether for Conservation and Land Management says that progress should be reported. Prior to the suspension should not be so. I don't know how she would know! of the sitting for dinner we were progressing well through the committee stage. The agreement The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! The reached was that we would proceed into committee Deputy Leader of the Opposition is now straying and I would have been happy to have finished by well from the issue before the committee. I ask him 6.30 p.m. I asked you, Mr Acting Chairman, whether to address his remarks through the Chair and to it would be possible and you said that was not return to that matter. possible. Mr THWAlTES - As to reporting progress, we Or Napthine interjected. should ask ourselves whether the committee is in a position for the motion that progress be reported be Mr THWAlTES - I was happy to complete it put; but it is not in that position because we have not and I would have been happy to have sat on, but the had the opportunity to complete discussions on the Chair quite properly said it was not possible to important clause 6 and other clauses which involve complete the process then. We did the right thing. technical matters. They may not be matters of great The honourable member for Thomastown spoke technical debate but we have been conducting with the Leader of the House during the suspension debate sensibly. Were we able to continue in of the sitting and reached an arrangement that we committee now we would advance and progress, would deal with second-reading speeches after the and perhaps the legislation would be the better for it. house resumed its sitting; but in breach of that, the government was not prepared to proceed. There are issues on which the committee has not progressed - for example, it has not discussed the Mr McArthur - On a point of order, Mr Acting definition of butcher shop as contained in clause 25. Chairman, the issue before the Chair is whether The present definition will make it difficult for progress should be reported. Any discussion of prosecutions. matters raised between the Leader of the House and the manager of opposition business, the honourable The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! I ask the member for Thomastown, is entirely irrelevant as to Deputy Leader of the Opposition to return to the whether progress should be reported. The Deputy issue before the committee - that is, that progress Leader of the Opposition should understand that if be reported. That does not include further clauses. progress is reported at this stage, the committee may be reconvened either tonight or later this week. I Mr McArthur - You are anticipating debate. suggest the Chair should advise him of those facts. Mr THWAlTES - The honourable member for Monbulk seems to want to sit in your chair, FOOD (AMENDMENT) BILL

1068 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997

Mr Acting Chainnan, to assume your role. Perhaps The amount of time being now wasted on this the Chair could call him -- debate could be better spent, I suggest, in discussing the clauses and making real progress. The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr A. F. Plowman)- Order! I ask the Deputy Or Napthine interjected. Leader of the Opposition to return to the debate; otherwise, I will no longer hear him. The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! I have asked the minister to cease interjecting. Mr THWAITES - I would like to proceed with the debate sensibly, without interjections from the Mr Batchelor interjected. honourable member for Monbulk; I will attempt to do that. As I earlier said, if the government were The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! The now prepared to stop the political argie-bargie and honourable member for Thomastown will also cease let us complete the remaining discussions, we could interjecting. progress the bill in a more orderly fashion. However, the moving of the motion to report Mr THWAITES - I am disappointed that the progress means the committee has adopted a totally progress of this committee - and it was making political approach. We are now heading down the good progress - is now being hampered by the track where instead of arriving at a good outcome government's political approach. The opposition through deliberations in this committee stage, the was quite determined to proceed sensibly during the legislation will be passed without proper committee stage. consideration. In some areas the committee can in a non-political The Minister for Youth and Community Services and non-partisan way make progress. Progress talks about a breach of agreement but there is no could be made on this clause. The parliamentary breach whatsoever. I did everything I could, as we secretary has indicated that the matter will be all did. considered, but further aspects of the bill need to be properly addressed if progress is to be fully made. Dr Napthine interjected. Dr Napthine interjected. The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! The minister will cease interjecting. Mr THWAITES - I am sorry, Mr Acting Chairman. I did not want to interrupt the minister's Mr THWAITES - That is completely untrue! intimidation of you! I am concerned that a motion to report progress has been moved by the minister - a Dr Napthine interjected. motion that is essentially about silencing this place - and instead of arguing his point the The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! The minister is trying to intimidate, threaten and criticise Minister for Youth and Community Services will the Chair. cease interjecting. I ask the Deputy Leader of the Opposition to respect the Chair and to return to the The ACTING CHAIRMAN - Order! The issue before the committee, which is that progress be Deputy Leader of the Opposition insinuated that reported. there was intimidation of the Chair. That certainly is not the case. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition Mr THWAITES - I urge all honourable also insinuated that the Chair was to be silenced on members to seriously consider what will happen if the issue. The issue before the committee is that the motion now before the committee is agreed to. In progress be reported, and that is neither silencing that event, the government will immediately the debate nor the Chair. I ask the Deputy Leader of adjourn debate on the legislation and we will not the Opposition to return to the debate. have a further opportunity to consider any clauses in the committee stage. The bill will not be again called Mr THWAITES - The minister was attempting on until 4.00 p.m. tomorrow when, pursuant to to avoid the proper process of debate. Let us not say sessional orders, it will be rammed through this he was intimidating you, Mr Acting Chairman, but place. he was not standing up here as I am and debating the issue or the progress that has been made. He was trying to do a deal with you or to intimidate -- CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1069

Dr Napthine - On a point of order, Mr Acting CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL Chairman, on your behalf I feel those comments were disgraceful, despicable and insulting to you. Second reading The Deputy Leader of the Opposition should withdraw his remarks. I was seeking certain Mr KENNETI (Premier) - I move: information from the Chair. That this bill be now read a second time. Mr THWAITES - He was intimidating the Chair! As honourable members will be aware, sections 73 The AcrING CHAIRMAN and 74 of the Constitution Act 1975 provide a (Mr A. F. Plowman) - Order! I wish to hear the statutory extension of parliamentary privilege in point of order in silence. relation to the publication of parliamentary proceedings. Those provisions have long formed Dr Naptbine - The point of order is that the part of the law of Victoria, having been first enacted Deputy Leader of the Opposition was making here in 1860; deriving originally from the comments contrary to the authority of the Chair and Parliamentary Papers Act 1840 of the United should be asked to withdraw. Kingdom.

The AcrING CHAIRMAN - Order! The However, since those provisions were first enacted, question before the Chair is whether the Chair takes proceedings have been provided to the public by exception to what was said by the Deputy Leader of means which were not envisioned in 1840, or 1860 or the Opposition. I believe there was no insult even, in relation to one method, in 1975. intended in what he said. Certainly the Chair does not take insult from what was said, but I ask the These new forms of 'publication' of proceedings Deputy Leader of the Opposition to return to the include the electronic provision of the Hansard issue before the chamber. I will not allow him to record of proceedings by way of the Internet, as well stray from the issue, which is that progress be as the sound and visual broadcast of recordings of reported. If the honourable member strays again, I proceedings. 1his bill arises due to the concern that will hear him no further. sections 73 and 74 may not extend to these new forms of 'publication'. Mr THWAITES - The opposition does not believe the committee is in a position to report As honourable members will all agree, I am sure, it progress. The committee was proceeding in an is important, if not essential, for any doubts on this orderly way with the discussion of the clauses and issue to be removed. The bill before the house perhaps the improvement of the legislation. ensures that those involved in the electronic Unfortunately, the government appears to want to 'publication' of parliamentary proceedings which gag the debate. That factor will contribute to the has been authorised by Parliament - and this legislation not being in as good a form as it would includes parliamentary officers and employees of otherwise have been. media organisations - are provided with the same degree of protection as is currently provided to those Mr DOYLE (Malvern) - Mr Acting Chairman, as involved in publication in 'paper' form. It does this you have said, the question is fairly simple - by two amendments: namely, that we report progress. listening to the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader of amending sections 73 and 74 to ensure that they the Opposition -- cover both electronic and written publication; and

Mr Brumby - We have finished. adding a new provision, which is based on section 15 of the commonwealth Parliamentary Mr DOYLE - So you do not want me to speak, Proceedings Broadcasting Act 1946. okay. This provision protects those involved in the Progress reported. broadcast or transmission of the proceedings of either house or a committee with the authority of that house or committee. Honourable members will note that the amendments require a variation to section 85 of the Constitution Act which is achieved LAND (RESERVATIONS AND OTHER MATTERS) BILL

1070 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 by the direct amendment to that section made by Clauses 4 and 5 deal with land upon which Central clause 5. Highlands Water (formerly Ballarat Water Board) operates a timber mill at Brown Hill near Ballarat. I commend the bill to the house. The mill straddles both Crown land and freehold land owned by Central Highlands Water. Debate adjourned on motion of Mr HULLS (Niddrie). Central Highlands Water wishes to consolidate its ownership of the land on which the mill is located. Debate adjourned until Wednesday, 19 November. To facilitate those plans it is necessary to revoke portions of two permanent reserves. LAND (RESERVATIONS AND OTHER MATTERS) BILL Clause 6 deals with the former site of the Mount Rouse shire offices. The original bluestone building, Second reading with a modem extension, is located on the site. The Southern Grampians Shire Council (successor to the Mrs TEHAN (Minister for Conservation and Shire of Mount Rouse) maintains an office in the Land Management) - I move: building and has expressed an interest in purchasing the site. That this bill be now read a second time. Clause 7 deals with a small area of approximately The bill provides for the revocation of permanent 300 square metres which is part of a larger area reservations of lands described in the schedules to permanently reserved for public purposes along the the bill and to make other related provisions. The King River at Wangaratta. bill removes these reservations either to facilitate disposal or because the purpose of the reservation is North East Region Water has been negotiating with no longer appropriate for the existing or proposed the Department of Natural Resources and use of the land. The bill also provides for the repeal Environment to purchase a property it currently of the Burrumbeet (Russell Reserve) Land Act 1982. occupies in Millard Street, Wangaratta. This property contains a residence, garage and I now turn to the particulars of the bill. outbuildings. The small portion of the property which is permanently reserved for public purposes Part 1-Preliminary must be revoked to enable the property to be sold.

Clauses 1 and 2 relate to the purposes of the bill and Clause 8 relates to land used by the Queenscliff its commencement. Bowling, Tennis and Croquet Club and is located at the corner of King and Hesse streets in Queenscliff. Part 2 - Revocation of reservations and Crown The club occupies an area of 1.77 hectares within a grants large area of Crown land that also supports a football oval, open space and caravan park. Clause 3 deals with a small area of land fronting the Bass Highway on the outskirts of Grantville. A The club has expressed an interest in purchasing the public hall was located on the property from the site to ensure security of tenure. The Borough of early part of this century but eventually fell into Queenscliffe supports the sale of the land to the club. disrepair. After attempts to find a viable alternative The recreational and strategic values of the land will to upgrade and maintain the facility failed, the hall be protected through an agreement between the was demolished in 1995. council and the club under section 173 of the Planning and Environment Act 1987 which will A new public hall with associated facilities has been require development on the land to provide for erected within the recreation reserve on the other recreational, sporting and ancillary uses only. side of the Bass Highway. The original site is no longer required for this purpose and discussions are Clause 9 deals with land located within the under way between the Department of Natural Lancaster Recreation Reserve. The Rural Water Resources and Environment and the Bass Coast Commission, with the approval of the committee of Shire Council on the future use of the site. management of the reserve, constructed a drainage channel, approximately 11 metres wide, along the western edge of the reserve about eight years ago. LAND (RESERVATIONS AND OTHER MATTERS) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1071

TItis small strip of the reserve is to be excised from has revealed that a small portion of building the recreation reserve and re-reserved for water encroaches onto the permanent reserve. drainage purposes in order to formalise the existing use. The council has applied to purchase the reserve so it can complete the sale of its freehold land. The Clause 10 deals with land located in McCrae Street remainder of the land will continue to be used as a in Bendigo's central business and retail sector which preschool centre. is used as a public car park operated by the City of Greater Bendigo. The land is reserved for public Clause 15 deals with land within the Mangalore purposes which is inappropriate for the use to which Flora Reserve, which has an area of approximately the land is put. Council has agreed to enter into a 65 hectares and was permanently reserved for the lease in respect of the site. preservation of species of native plants in 1982. Revocation of a small portion (approximately Clause 11 relates to the proposed sale of unused 2.6 hectares) along the western boundary of the government roads in the Parish of Gruyere. The reserve is required to facilitate the duplication of the owner of freehold land has applied to purchase two Goulbum Valley Highway. unused roads that are contained within his farming operation and are indistinguishable from that To compensate for the strip of land required for the property. The Yarra Ranges Shire Council and highway duplication, Vicroads is negotiating with adjoining landowners have consented to the sale of the owner of the adjoining land with the view to the roads. A very small portion of one of the roads is acquiring land to add to the Reserve. TItis will permanently reserved for public purposes. TIUs ensure that there is no net loss of biodiversity values must be revoked to enable sale of the land. as a result of the roadworks.

Clause 12 deals with land, managed by the Public Clause 16 deals with land occupied by the Lakes Transport Corporation, located at Hamilton between Entrance Bowls Gub, which forms part of a larger the railway station and Mount Napier Road. The area of Crown land used for recreation purposes. northern portion of the land is currently occupied by The bowls club has applied to purchase the land it sheds that are leased by a local business. The PIC currently occupies. has now declared this portion of the reserve to be surplus to its requirements and revocation of this Clause 17 relates to the Kingston Centre at the portion of the reserve is required to facilitate its sale. corner of Warrigal and Kingston roads in Heatherton. The centre offers accommodation and Clause 13 deals with a small area of land located in health services to the aged and physically occupies the town of Bannockburn. The land was developed about 50 percent of the reserve. The remainder of the as a municipal depot and the Shire of Bannockburn reserve is used as market gardens and open space. offices in conjunction with adjacent council-owned The Southern Health Care Network, which manages land. The old office building is now used for the land, is in the process of reviewing its business community services. The rear of the reserve and and will be identifying those portions of the reserve adjoining council freehold is used as a council depot. that are surplus to its needs.

The Golden Plains Shire Council (successor to the The network has agreed to the revocation of the Shire of Bannockburn) has applied to purchase the reserve on the basis that a new grant will be issued land. for the area identified for its future use. Land identified as surplus to the network's needs will be Clause 14 deals with the original Rosedale Shire Hall sold. reserve. In the early 1970s, the council built new offices on the adjoining freehold allotment and Part 3 - Werribee land transformed the original shire hall into a preschool centre. This part deals with land located at the State Research Farm, Werribee, which covers an area of Wellington Shire Council (successor to the Shire of approximately 475 hectares. Rosedale) has now relocated its administrative functions to Sale and wishes to dispose of its interest In the 1980s the managers of the land identified in the 1970s building. However, survey of the site portions of the farm that were no longer required for agricultural research purposes. In 1988 legislation ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

1072 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 was passed providing for the revocation of the Albert Park in the Australian Grands Prix Act 1994 permanent reservation in respect of land from as a consequence of the excision. within these 'surplus' areas by Order in Council published in the Government Gazette. Part 6

The research farm is still reviewing its holdings and Part 6 relates to the Melbourne City Council's has identified a further 70 hectares that will be proposal to construct a $9 million, 487 space surplus to its future needs. It is proposed to treat this underground car park below the northern end of land in the same manner as those previously Argyle Square, Carlton. The car park proposal has identified surplus areas. been the subject of an extensive public consultation process and has strong support in the local Part 4 - Burrumbeet (Russell Reserve) Land Act community. This bill provides for the excision of an 1982 underground stratum of the reserve, within which the car park can be constructed. The surface of the This part deals with land on the banks of Lake land, except for small areas required for vehicle and Burrumbeet that is permanently reserved for public pedestrian access and other ancillary structures, will purposes and occupied by a caravan park. The remain reserved for public recreation. Burrumbeet

MacRobertson Girls High School occupies a small Second reading 0.6 hectare site at the corner of Kings Way and Albert Drive, Albert Park. The site is Crown land, Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - I move: permanently reserved for education purposes. The school adjoins the north-eastem corner of Albert That this bill be now read a second time. Park Reserve and, in the past, has used the reserve for open space and other recreational activities. 'This bill represents a further stage in the Because of the redevelopment of Albert Park development of the Victorian Workcover scheme. It Reserve this is no longer possible. The need for gives full effect to one of the key objectives alternative arrangements to ensure the ongoing enunciated when the Kennett government came to viability of the school was recognised in the Albert power in 1992 - namely, to develop a workers Park Master Plan (1994), which supported the use of compensation scheme which provided fair and a small portion of the reserve by the school. A small comprehensive protection for injured workers, but excision of approximately 8500 square metres is did so at premium rates which were internationally required to be made from the Albert Park Reserve to competitive. This vision required a massive shift in facilitate this proposal. The excised land will be culture and was dependent upon a dramatic permanently reserved for educational purposes. improvement in workplace safety and more effective Gause 27 makes an amendment to the definition of rehabilitation and return to work strategies. ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1073

Workcover's achievements are dramatic. Workplace compensation schemes do not occur until the system injuries have been reduced by 40 per cent and return reaches crisis point. We have seen this most recently to work has become the cornerstone of the scheme, in New South Wales where, in just three years, that with over 90 per cent of injured workers returning to scheme has moved from a surplus of $1.2 billion to a work. The unfunded liability of $2100 million deficit of $1.0 billion, while the average premium inherited from the previous scheme has been rate has risen from 1.8 per cent to 2.8 per cent of extinguished and Victoria now boasts the only major payroll. We must not allow this to happen in Australian workers compensation scheme to be fully Victoria. funded and at the same time has the lowest premium rate of any state in Australia. But to Obviously, the most profound effect of the bill is to maintain Workcover's leadership position requires delete the remaining rights of an injured worker to constant surveillance, and earlier this year when a recover any damages in a common-law action. The concerning cost trend began to emerge the question of whether, and to what extent, government initiated a comprehensive review of the common-law rights should be included in a scheme. 'no-fault' workers compensation scheme has been debated for many years, and indeed it can be fairly The key stakeholders were invited to participate in argued that it was the shortcomings of the that review on the basis that any changes should: common-law process that led to the development of 'no-fault' systems in the first place. (i) not reduce overall benefits paid to workers; and (ii) secure the financial stability of the program For a common-law action to succeed the worker while preserving the scheme's competitive must establish fault on the part of the employer. premiums. Depending on the circumstances, this may be difficult to prove, is likely to be contested, and a This bill is the result of the most extensive defence of 'contributory negligence' may result. The consultation process in a decade. The government outcome thus becomes something of a lottery, and has received and very carefully considered the views settlements may vary dramatically even for similar of a wide range of stakeholders and has looked at injuries. The process is protracted and costly, and best practice both in Australia and overseas. can be harrowing for the parties. The review process confirmed that while Victoria Worse still, it is anything but conducive to a has the best workers compensation scheme in successful return to work, the outcome which should Australia, our advantage was being eroded and that remain the primary focus of the scheme. the underlying cost of the scheme was now running ahead of premium levels and demanded urgent It was against this background that, when attention. The issues of common law, serious injury classification, as well as the overall level of Workcover was introduced in 1992, a compromise was struck, that while workers would be protected disputation emerged as the most obvious factors in under a compulsory, no-fault scheme, those workers the cost shift and became the focus of further very who had the misfortune to be 'seriously injured' (as detailed and extensive research and analysis. strictly defined) would have the added right to take action at common law, on the basis that any The need to change the scheme - and to do so settlement awarded by the court would expunge urgently - is compelling. The government, as the both their statutory right to compensation for the ultimate custodian of the scheme, is acting for two physical injury (under the table of maims) and any reasons. In the first place, the government must future entitlement to weekly benefits. The logic of make certain that the basic legislative structure of that compromise was that for the profoundly the scheme continues to encourage workplace safety, injured, with little or no prospect of returning to rehabilitation and the efficient delivery of work, a common law settlement may represent a compensation and that it is not compromised by reasonable basis of 'capitalising' their weekly those who would abuse the scheme for their own entitlement over the long term. enrichment. To fail to act to protect the scheme in the interest of Victoria's workers and employers would be irresponsible. Due primarily to the creative efforts of plaintiff lawyers, this compromise based upon a 'gatekeeper' of 'serious injury' has not been allowed to work, and Secondly, the government must move quickly to the government has been required to return to the protect Workcover's long-term financial health. Too Parliament three times since 1992 with amendments often in other jurisdictions, changes to workers ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

1074 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 designed to restrict common law entitlements to the The SPEAKER - Order! There will be an profoundly injured for whom it was originally opportunity -- intended. Mr Bracks interjected. The facts we face are indisputable: The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable (i) While aggregate claim numbers (and traumatic member for Williamstown. injuries) have fallen dramatically, the numbers being assessed as 'seriously injured' Mr STOCKDALE - You put it through while continue to climb. you had a majority. We did not need to defend it, (ii) Based on the data then available, Workcover because the Labor caucus rolled the Premier. was designed in 1992 on an expectation of up to 500 common law writs per year. The The SPEAKER - Order! Remarks must be made volume has now reached 1000 per year and through the Chair. continues to climb. Mr STOCKDALE - In the first place, it is (iii) Workcover common-law payments have risen quickly dispelled by the data coming from other from $17.9 million in 1995-96 to $139.7 million jurisdictions where common law has been deleted. in 1996-97, and continue to grow. In addition, it should be understood that employers These facts, and their obvious impact upon the are insured against common-law damages, and in viability of the scheme, forced the focus of the any event, only 3 per cent of common-law claims review back. to the fundamental question of ever reach court. including a common-law component in a no-fault scheme. Several further issues were then considered: The appropriate remedy for employer negligence in relation to health and safety is under statutory (i) Another cost of the common-law process flows health and safety law, not common law. Financial from the attraction of the lump sum, and the penalties, met directly from the employer's pocket, 'all-or-nothing' culture which it brings. In and adverse publicity, to say nothing of some cases, the prospect of rehabilitation and imprisonment, directly punish negligent employers successful return to work is put on hold, even much more effectively than an action at common actively discouraged. law. While it is impOSSible to quantify the extent of that (iii) More fundamentally however, the cost, it must be acknowledged by all that the best government has concluded that no injured possible outcome is for an injured worker to return worker should have to initiate legal to worthwhile employment, and that the lump sum proceedings as the basis upon which their 'culture', to the extent that it frustrates that objective, entitlement to compensation is determined. becomes an important underlying cost consideration. Given all of this, the government has decided to (ii) One argument commonly advanced by those move to a workers compensation scheme where favouring the inclusion of common law is that generous comprehensive statutory benefits replace it provides the best sanction against a common law. These arrangements are universal in negligent employer, and thus that its removal Canada, the United States and New Zealand and in will lead to unsafe work practices. other Australian jurisdictions of South Australia and The government does not accept that argument. the Northern Territory and, with some small exceptions, the federal government's Comcare An honourable member interjected. scheme.

Mr STOCKDALE - Well neither did the Labor The new Workcover arrangements will offer the Party in the days of John Cain. If I remember most comprehensive and progressive set of no-fault correctly, the 1984 review panel report that was benefits for injured workers in Australia. The conducted by Labor members, including one savings from the deletion of any damages in a member now in Parliament, recommended the common law action will be redirected into meeting abolition of common-law rights. that commitment.

Mr Bracks - What was your response to it? ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1075

Objectives of reform In addition, a new long term benefit category has been established to support injured workers back at This bill will improve the operations of the work and working on their maximum capacity in Workcover scheme in a number of fundamental defined circumstances. respects. Seventh, a number of changes will be made to First, the right to recover any damages in a improve the efficiency of the dispute resolution common-law action will be eliminated for all process. Opinions of the medical panels will be work-related injuries arising after the date of made final and conclusive irrespective of who commencement. Workers injured before that date referred the medical question and must be adopted will be able to continue to bring forward by the courts as the answer to the medical question. common-law claims for up to three years. There will be a new, free service to assist workers and employers as an alternative to expensive legal Second, penalties for breaches of health and safety advice. Conciliation officers' powers will be requirements will be increased to at least five times extended, and disputes over entitlements to medical their current maxima. Negligent employers will be and like benefits not resolved at conciliation will be liable to penalties of up to $250 000 for a first offence. heard in either the Magistrates or County Court rather than at the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. Third, statutory death benefits will be increased substantially. The present lump sum will be Eighth, superannuation payments will be included increased and there will be an entirely new and in the remuneration base for calculation of additional system of ongoing income support for a Workcover premiums, making this definition dependent spouse and children dependent on a consistent with that in the Pay-roll Tax Act 1971. The deceased worker. average premium rate will also be increased to 1.9 per cent of payroll. This increase is necessary to Fourth, compensation for permanent impairment fund the run-off of common law and ensure the (non-economic loss) will be expanded and financial stability of the scheme. modernised to reflect workplace conditions of the 21st rather than the early 20th century. In I turn now to the major features of the bill. recognition of the elimination of common law, the statutory maximum will be increased from the Common law current $161 000 to $300 000, almost double that of any other jurisdiction in Australia, including those A worker injured on or after commencement will not which have already abolished common law. be entitled to recover damages of any kind in a common-law action. However, the dependants of a Fifth, permanent impairment assessments will be deceased worker will continue to be able to recover conducted using the fourth edition of the American damages of up to $500 000 under the Wrongs Medical Association Guides to the Evaluation of Act 1958. Permanent Impairment developed in 1993. The guides will be modified to take account of Australian best Workers who were injured before the date of practice in evaluating psychiatric and hearing commencement will have up to three years to impairments. commence proceedings to recover damages. If however, the incapacity arising from such an injury Sixth, in line with contemporary disability only becomes known after commencement the management principles, the weekly benefits system, worker will have three years from when the which compensates for lost earnings, will be incapacity became known to bring proceedings for restructured to focus on work capacity rather than damages. on injury or incapacity and thus improve rehabilitation and return to work prospects. The Injured workers will not be able to recover damages payment system will be simplified. Workers will be against third parties. However, the authority will streamed to one of two payment rates on the basis of continue to be indemnified in respect of whether they have, or do not have, a current work compensation paid to the worker under the statute capacity and, after two years, whether the lack of by third parties who would otherwise have had a current work capacity is likely to continue legal liability to the worker. Third parties who have indefinitely. failed to comply with their duties under ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

1076 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 occupational health and safety laws will also be These payments will be assessable for income tax to liable to prosecution by the authority. the person for whom they are paid. In the case of a minor, however, the pension will be taxed at normal Health and safety penalties income tax rates rather than the higher tax rates that normally apply to the income of a minor. Maximum penalties for offences under the Occupational Health and Safety Act 1985 and the The government has also retained the existing right Equipment

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1077

Evaluation of Permanent Impairment as modified in $600 million of compensation to Victoria that was three areas by the act. transferred directly to the commonwealth as a result of the introduction of Workcare. We are still waiting, On the advice of the medical panels, there will be a waiting, waiting for the Labor Party to honour its revised method for assessing and ascribing commitment. permanent impairment percentages to psychiatric conditions. Hearing losses will be assessed using Mr Bracks interjected. current National Acoustic Laboratory methods converted to a whole-person impairment Mr STOCKDALE - You were wrong then and percentage. The chapter of the guides dealing with that is not the only thing you are wrong about! pain will be excluded because it provides no workable methodology for ascribing a percentage The SPEAKER - Order! impairment to the assessment of chronic pain. However, each individual chapter on a body system Mr STOCKDALE - This is a red letter day. This includes a component for pain. is the first time any Labor spokesperson has admitted that he or she was wrong back in the 1980s. Until such time as the new guides become effective, I think we should get him the Hansard. impairment assessments for the run-off of common law and table of maims will continue to be carried Mr Bracks interjected. out using the second edition of the guides. The SPEAKER - Order! The Treasurer, back on It is intended that non-economic loss benefits up to the script. $10000 be paid by way of a lump sum. Non-economic losses between $10 000 and $30000 Mr STOCKDALE - The honourable member for will be paid by an initial lump sum of $10 000 and Williamstown is the first Labor spokesman -- instalments of capital thereafter. The non-economic loss amount will be converted to a number of Mr Bracks interjected. payments (after deduction of the initial $10 000) which will become the person's compensation The SPEAKER - Order! If members wish to entitlement. If the non-economic loss amount is debate the question they will have plenty of greater than $30 000, one-third will be paid as an opportunity when the second-reading debate comes initial lump sum with the remainder paid by on. I am sure we will have a spirited debate. instalments. The instalments will be paid at $600 a month (indexed annually to the consumer price Mr STOCKDALE - Hypocrisy speaks with a index) until the sum is exhausted, or at an loud voice! I remember -- instalment level that would exhaust the payment over 10 years. Mr Bracks interjected.

The government continues to argue that an The SPEAKER - Order! For the sake of the impairment payment remains a capital sum whether decorum of Parliament, I ask the Treasurer to come paid as a lump sum or by instalment. This as has back to the script and finish his second-reading been accepted by the commonwealth in relation to speech without ad-libbing. taxation. Mr STOCKDALE - I am simply reminding the Mr Bracks interjected. house that the current honourable member for Northcote, Rob Jolly and John Cain were in favour Mr STOCKDALE - Strangely enough that is the of totally repealing common-law rights in 1985. very next thing I am going to do. The government is continuing to press the commonwealth to treat Mr Bracks interjected. instalments as having no effect on any social security entitlement. Until such time -- The SPEAKER - Order! Will the honourable member for Williamstown cease interjecting. The Mr Hulls interjected. honourable member should contain himself. It will be in the Hansard record and he will be able to refute Mr STOCKDALE - I remember back in 1985 we the argument when he has the opportunity during were told that the then Labor government would get ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

1078 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 the second-reading debate, which I am sure he will second-reading speech - and finish it as it is in the do with some vigour. script.

Mr STOCKDALE - I freely concede that it has Mr STOCKDALE - I cannot understand why he taken 12 years for Labor lawyers to persuade me is still here. He probably has a polo match that it is simply not viable to continue the system. tomorrow. He should be home getting some rest! Now I have to find where I was reading. Impairment assessments will be carried out by In line with the government's commitment, doctors who have passed an approved training compensation for severe permanent psychiatric course and will be made using the fourth edition of impairment, not currently covered in the table of the American Medical -- maims, will be provided. This non-economic loss amount will be assessed by a separate formula, with Honourable members interjecting. a threshold being set at 30 per cent whole-person impairment, the level which would currently entitle Mr STOCKDALE - When I need help from you a person to pursue damages at common law. I will ask for it.

Mr Bracks - On a point of order, Mr Speaker, I Honourable members interjecting. raise two matters. Firstly, I ask for your guidance on whether the minister can debate the bill as he Mr STOCKDALE - They will be made using the appears to be doing while he is giving his American Medical Association Guides to the second-reading speech. Secondly, I ask whether Evaluation of Permanent Impairment as modified in Hansard will correctly record the matters pertaining three areas by the act. to the bill that arise as the Treasurer moves from what is in the script. On the advice of medical panels, there will be a revised method for assessing and ascribing The SPEAKER - Order! I have the utmost faith permanent impairment percentages to psychiatric that Hansard reporters will carefully listen to the conditions. speech, watch what has been put before them, add or subtract where necessary and provide a faithful Honourable members interjecting. representation of exactly what the Treasurer has said, including, unfortunately, the interjections that Mr STOCKDALE - It's so good, you ought to come along. get it twice!

Mr STOCKDALE - Only if I pick them up, Hearing losses will be assessed using current MrSpeaker. National Acoustic Laboratory methods converted to a whole person impairment percentage. The chapter Impairment assessments will be carried out by of the guides dealing with pain will be excluded doctors who have passed an approved training because it provides no workable methodology for course and will be made -- ascribing a percentage impairment to the assessment of chronic pain. However, each individual chapter Mr Hulls - On a point of order, Mr Speaker, this on a body system includes a component for pain. is becoming repetitious. The Treasurer is now reading a page he has already read. Until such time as the new guides come into effect, impairment assessments for the run-off of common The SPEAKER - Order! There is no point of law and table of maims will continue to be carried order. The honourable member should take his out using the second edition of the guides. place. It is intended that non-economic loss benefits of up Honourable members interjecting. to $10 000 be paid by way of a lump sum. Non-economic losses between $10 000 and $30 000 The SPEAKER - Order! It would help the will be paid by an initial lump sum of 510 000 and Treasurer a great deal if there were no interjections, instalments of capital thereafter. The non-economic particularly from the honourable member who just loss amount will be converted to a number of raised the point of order. Without the continual payments (after deduction of the initial $10000) interjections, the Treasurer might finish his which will become the person's compensation ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1079 entitlement. If the non-economic loss amount is appropriate time for insurers to identify those claims greater than $30 000, one-third will be paid as an which are at risk of becoming long term and to initial lump sum with the remainder paid by manage their rehabilitation actively. Setting a instalments. decision point at 13 weeks improves the prospect of a better outcome. Honourable members interjecting. Benefits levels will be kept at 95 per cent of Mr STOCKDALE - It's good stuff. We cannot pre-injury earnings for the first 13 weeks of expect you to understand it if we don't repeat it, so payments. However, the cap on benefits shall be this is helpful to you. lifted from average weekly earnings to 125 per cent of average weekly earnings - that is, from $680 a The instalments will be paid at $600 a month week to $850 a week. (indexed annually to the consumer price index) until the sum is exhausted, or at an instalment level that After 13 weeks of payments, benefits for those would exhaust the payment over 10 years. workers who do not have a current work capacity, will be based at 75 per cent of pre-injury earnings. The government continues to argue that an Workers with a current work capacity will be paid at impairment payment remains a capital sum whether 60 per cent of pre-injury earnings less 60 per cent of paid as a lump sum or by instalment. This has been current earnings (as is the current basis). accepted by the commonwealth in relation to taxation - as I said a few minutes ago, Mr Speaker. After 104 weeks, benefits will be paid to those The government is continuing to press the people who do not have a current work capacity and commonwealth to treat instalments as having no who are likely to continue indefinitely to have no effect on social security entitlement. Until such time current work capacity. The government has as the government receives a favourable response to consciously moved away from the terminology of this request, all payments will be made as a single 'totally and permanently incapacitated' on the lump sum as currently occurs. ground that it sends negative messages to workers about their longer term prospects for eventual Weekly payments recovery and return to useful work or activity. We expect insurers to continue to review these On the recommendation of all major stakeholders, beneficiaries regularly and to provide appropriate injured workers will no longer be classified for support to them. Benefits beyond 104 weeks will be weekly payments by their injury status. paid at 75 per cent of pre-injury earnings.

The 'serious injury' category of benefits was not There will also be an entirely new long-term benefit intended to mean that people with quite high category for injured workers who have returned to impairment levels could not also have a work work at the maximum of their physical and mental capacity. However, it has been used by claimants to capabilities, but at a level which is not equivalent to secure high benefits and then assumed to their pre-injury position and for whom, therefore, conclusively demonstrate that they have no capacity ongoing income supplementation beyond 104 weeks for work. is appropriate.

The new benefit structure will classify workers as If these workers meet the criteria of working at their having either a 'current work capacity' or 'no maximum capability for at least 15 hours a week current work capacity' for up to two years. In line (and earning $100 or more) and will continue to do with modem disability management practices, these so indefinitely, they can apply to the authority or changes are intended to send a strong message to self-insurer to remain on payment at the benefit level workers, employers and insurers that getting the applicable to people with a current work capacity - injured worker fit and back to work will provide the that is, at 60 per cent of pre-injury earnings less best possible financial and social outcomes. 60 per cent of current earnings. The authority or self-insurer cannot refuse an application based on This is also the reasoning behind bringing the the worker's physical or mental capabilities without stepdown in weekly benefits forward to 13 weeks. the matter being referred to a medical panel for an Most injuries have healed by this time, and about opinion. 70 per cent of workers are back at work. By 13 weeks the likely course of a claim is apparent. It is the latest ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

1080 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997

Grandfathering of current claimants a medical panel on a medical question be final and conclusive irrespective of who referred the medical The government has given a commitment that question and the opinion must be adopted by the workers currently on the system will not be courts as the answer to that question. disadvantaged as a result of the change. As well as those changes to the act which will Workers who have lodged a claim and are either on remove sources of dispute a number of other or are subsequently determined to have been changes are proposed which will improve dispute entitled to weekly payments on commencement of resolution procedures. these provisions will continue to be paid at their existing rate but will be classified in accordance with It will not be possible to commence proceedings in the new classifications and progressively assessed the Magistrates Court or County Court until the under the new classification requirements. conciliation officer is satisfied that all reasonable steps have been taken by the claimant to settle the Workers classified as seriously injured will continue dispute and has issued a certificate to this effect. to receive weekly payments based on 90 per cent of pre-injury earnings for as long as they continue to Parties to a conciliation may be requested to bring meet the 30 per cent impairment threshold. forward to the conciliation any documents or information relevant to the dispute. If this request is Current seriously injured claimants who are entitled refused or the party fails to produce the information, to claim common law but have not yet done so will they will not be allowed to tender it in any retain this right for up to three years from the date of subsequent proceedings relating to the dispute. commencement. Conciliation officers will be able to make a direction The prOvisions allowing people currently classified for up to 24 weeks of payment (currently 10 weeks) as 'seriously injured' who can provide evidence of during a period before the direction is given. This an income-producing project to apply for a should remove the need to take court action to settlement under section 115 remain available. recover small amounts of outstanding weekly However, that section shall be amended so that a payments after a matter is resolved at conciliation. In person's ongoing entitlement to compensation for addition, conciliation officers will have a power to medical and like services under section 99 cannot be give general directions in relation to liability to pay the subject of a settlement. reasonable medical and like expenses provided during the period of a direction on weekly payments. Rehabilitation and return to work If a dispute is solely in relation to the liability to pay The bill also makes it clear that failure to comply reasonable medical and like expenses, the with any of the provisions of the act relating to conciliation officer may also give a general direction occupational rehabilitation, return-to-work plans for payment up to a total of $2000 in respect of the and risk management constitutes an offence. The relevant injury. penalties relating to these offences will be increased fivefold by over $10 000 for employers and The act will also be amended to clarify the meaning maintained at their present levels for workers. of 'no genuine dispute'. There is a genuine dispute if the conciliation officer is satisfied that there is an Dispute resolution arguable case in support of the denial of liability and no genuine dispute if there is not. The government considers that doctors, not lawyers, are the best qualified people to offer medical The act will be amended so as to transfer the existing opinions. Currently, the opinion of a medical panel jurisdiction of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, on a medical question is binding only when a court to hear and determine matters which relate solely to has referred a medical question to the paneL This medical and like compensation, to the courts in gives rise to 'duelling experts' which becomes an keeping with other compensation matters under the obstacle to the resolution of disputes, leads to their act. escalation and drives up costs unnecessarily. In addition, the government intends to establish a Therefore, and in line with the practice in other new Workcover Advisory Service. This service will jurisdictions, the act will require that the opinion of be available free of charge to both workers and ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1081 employers as an alternative to expensive legal Conclusion advice. Consistent with this, the ability to obtain legal costs relating to a referral to conciliation will be This bill will position Workcover for the 21st century abrogated. and ensure that the hard-won gains for Victoria's workers and employers are preserved. Premium I commend the bill to the house, secure in the The act will also be amended to bring the definition knowledge that the Leader of the Opposition in the of remuneration into line with that in the Pay-roll federal Parliament has voted -- Tax Act 1971 by including superannuation benefits as wages. This amendment will come into effect Opposition members - Shame! from 1 January 1998. The average premium rate will also be increased to 1.9 per cent of payroll to fund Debate adjourned on motion of Mr BRUMBY the run-off of common-law claims and ensure the (Leader of the Opposition). financial stability of the scheme. The new premium rate will apply from 1 July 1998 and will be effected Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - I move: through the premiums order. That the debate be adjourned until 26 November 1997. Work for the dole Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I At the request of the commonwealth government, move: we have also amended the definition of 'worker' to exclude participants in the commonwealth 'work for That the expression '1997' be omitted with the view of the dole' program which requires certain adult inserting in place thereof the expression '1998'. unemployment beneficiaries to undertake community service in return for their social security On the issue of time and the reason why I have payments. The Occupational Health and Safety Act moved the amendment: this bill, with its 21 pages of is also being amended so as not to include these second-reading speech and its 105 amendments to a people as employees. However, the government will 392-page act, has led to a shemozzle in the past few not proclaim these provisions until it is satisfied by weeks as changes have been made, changes the commonwealth that program participants are withdrawn and concessions offered. Now this bill is adequately insured and that employers are introduced with the government intent on ramming protected from legal action arising out of an injury to it through this place by 26 November. a participant. I would have thought we sit few enough days in this Constitution Act 1975 place already - in fact, this Parliament has sat the fewest number of sitting days since the Second Clauses 11, 45, 46, 47, 48 and 49 of the bill necessitate World War. This legislation represents the most amendments to section 63 of the Accident savage attack on workers' rights in this state's Compensation CWorkcover) Act 1992 and the history, yet the government wants to ram it through Constitution Act 1975. However, as these involve in just a few working days before the Mitcham direct amendments to the Constitution Act 1975, a by-election and before the backbenchers in this place statement for the purposes of section 85(5) of that act and the people of Victoria know exactly what its is not required. consequences will be. That is why I have moved that debate on the bill be adjourned for at least a year - Commencement until November 1998 - so that backbenchers, the public, the lawyers, the Victorian Workcover The major provisions of this bill abolishing recovery Authority and the injured workers - in fact, anyone of any damages in a common-law action and who has an interest in this legislation - can examine implementing a new system of statutory benefits it and understand it for the mess and the rottenness shall take effect from today. it represents. We need a year to do that. The bill represents the most savage attack on workers' rights in Victoria's history. It removes what are clearly fundamental and basic rights.

Mr Honeywood interjected. ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

1082 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997

Mr BRUMBY - I ask the minister to withdraw injured workers. It has become apparent in this place that comment. during the past two days that particularly government backbenchers have not been provided The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Minister in their party room with the necessary information for Tertiary Education and Training used what is an to make a judgment on the impact of this bill. Were unparliamentary expression. I ask him to withdraw. the bill to lie over for a year, government members may come to understand the real impact of the Mr Honeywood - To the extent it is measure. As I said, the bill deals with basic and unparliamentary, I withdraw. fundamental rights. It is a savage attack on the rights of injured workers and for that reason alone debate Mr BRUMBY - Whenever Parliament is dealing should be adjourned for a year. with issues that fundamentally affect people's lives and the rights of Victorians, it should tread carefully The second reason why debate on the legislation to ensure all the facts and arguments are known. The should be adjourned for at least a year is the intention of the government has become a pattern of extraordinarily alarming and widespread opposition behaviour in this place because the bill is just one of to it across the community. It is estimated many that fundamentally deny and remove the conservatively that today at least 30 000 Victorians rights of Victorians. were marching on the streets of Melbourne; some estimate that as many as 50 000 marched to express We have seen the right to appeal to the Supreme their opposition to this appalling legislation. It is Court removed in more than 150 pieces of conservatively estimated that two weeks ago 60 000 legislation. We have seen the rights of the people demonstrated their opposition to the Auditor-General to assess how taxpayers' money is legislation at the front of Parliament House. being spent in this state being attacked and nobbled. Including all those people who have been out there We have seen the judges of the former Accident Compensation Tribunal sacked by this government. protesting - marching, taking time off work, We have seen the shift to the federal system of an perhaps losing a day's pay, for every one of them industrial relations system that has taken away the with a spouse or children - some 250 000 Victorians rights of people. We have seen the independence of have effectively been on the streets voicing their the Director of Public Prosecutions and his right to opposition to this rotten legislation. prosecute whoever he wishes for contempt of court removed, and his independence threatened. Mr Deputy Speaker, you would be well aware that four weeks ago I travelled to Warmambool and We have seen the rights of victims of crime to addressed a public meeting. You, Sir, can receive compensation for pain and suffering understand the dimensions of the opposition removed. We have seen welfare organisations expressed by the good people of Warmarnbool. silenced through the application of confidentiality Some 800 people turned out at that rally in clauses. We have seen teachers silenced under opposition to the changes introduced in the order 140-- legislation. The locals told me they could not remember a rally of that size in the streets of Mr Honeywood - On a point of order, Warmambool. Mr Deputy Speaker, the motion moved by the Leader of the Opposition was most specific as to a There is widespread community opposition, but that change of date for debate on the bill. The house is is not the only opposition. Recently, extraordinary now hearing a shopping list to cover the full gamut revelations have been made by self-insured of parliamentary legislation debated during the past employers, which make up a major employer two or three years. I ask you to bring the Leader of group - for example, the ANZ Bank, Coles Myer, the Opposition back to the motion. BHP and Shell. Those companies are self-insurers and are proud of the relationship they have built up The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I do not with their work force in their industries. They do not uphold the point of order, but I remind the Leader of want a bar of the legislation. They have said it is the Opposition that it is a narrow debate on the rotten legislation. It stinks. All it is doing is question of time. I ask him to confine himself to the developing a bad industrial relations climate parameters of his motion. between those industries and their employees.

Mr BRUMBY - The first reason why debate on Those industries are happy with the present system. this bill ought to be delayed for at least a year is that If they are negligent or culpable in the workplace, it deals with the fundamental and basic rights of ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1083 they believe common-law rights are appropriate. So common-law rights. He said 24 government 23 of the 24 self-insured employers have said they members stood up in the party room in opposition do not want a bar of the legislation. They have asked to the legislation. We want to know who they are. the government to call it off, to let it hit the desk, to say no more, to rip it up: they do not want it. Mr Perton - On a point of order, Mr Deputy Opinion polls in marginal seats across the state show Speaker, the honourable member is attempting to that some 70 per cent of voters are opposed to the argue the merits of the debate. He is trying to argue legislation, and well they might be because they a range of matters that have nothing to do with know its impact. They know what it will mean to the whether the matter should be debated in the 4000 workers seriously injured in this state every Parliament. The question of whatever the year. honourable member for Shepparton said, whatever opposition members think or whatever the Mr Perton - On a point of order, Mr Deputy Shepparton News published last week has nothing to Speaker, the motion is narrow. It involves an do with the question of time. Those issues will be amendment that suggests debate should be deferred debated in the substantive debate of the bill in two for one year. The state of opinion polls has no weeks. It has nothing to do with the question of time. relevance to the question of when the matter ought to be debated in the house. I ask you to keep the Mr BRUMBY - On the point of order, Leader of the Opposition to the narrow point he is Mr Deputy Speaker, as I indicated, my arguments entitled to debate. have nothing to do with the structure or content of the bill; they concern the issue of time. I have said The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I uphold the more time should be allowed for debate, firstly, point of order and remind the Leader of the because the legislation represents a savage attack on Opposition that the Chair has a difficult task in people's rights and, secondly, because there is trying to restrict the house to the narrow debate. I widespread opposition across the community, ask the Leader of the Opposition to -- including in Warmambool and in the government party room. I will go on to argue a few more reasons Honourable members interjecting. why the time for the consideration of the bill should be extended. The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I would rather not! I ask the Leader of the Opposition to I submit that I have not in one breath touched on the relate his remarks to the question of time before the content, application, detail or clauses of the bill or house. the second-reading speech. I am dealing strictly with the matter of time and the necessity for the Mr BRUMBY - Mr Deputy Speaker, thank you Parliament to delay debate on the bill for a year so it for your guidance. I have a carefully structured can be properly considered. speech that goes to the question of time and that does not address any detail of the legislation because The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I remind the to do so would be to contradict the standing orders. house it is a narrow debate on the question of time. It is a difficult task for the Chair to decide when a I have said that the first reason the legislation should subject is introduced whether it relates to the be delayed is that it represents a fundamental attack question of time. I will not uphold the point of order on people's basic rights. The second reason it ought at this point in time. It is a difficult debate, and I to be delayed is because of the widespread remind the Leader of the Opposition that unless he opposition to it across the state, whether that be is able to continually relate his remarks to the measured by the 800 people who turned up at the question of time, points of order such as those that rally in Warrnambool, the 60 000 people who have been raised will be upheld. demonstrated at the front of Parliament House, the opinion polls or the widespread opposition in the Mr BRUMBY - As I was saying, there is government party rooms. widespread opposition across the community and within the government party room, as evidenced by Newspaper reports have widely publicised the the 24 members of Parliament referred to by the opposition to the legislation, including mainstream honourable member for Shepparton and the media such as the Shepparton News. The honourable resignation yesterday of the honourable member for member for Shepparton has indicated that he will Mitcham. In the letter he sent to the Premier he not be voting to support the removal of indicated he was resigning not just over the matter ADJOURNMENT

1084 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997 concerning the Auditor-General but also over the the call when this debate is resumed. I presume I Workcover issue. He said: will and that was simply an oversight.

Here is another example of bad government of which I The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The process is do not feel I want to be part. that the debate on the previous bill will be listed as an item of business and the Leader of the Opposition Mr Pescott said specifically that the legislation ought will have the call. to be delayed until after the Mitcham by-election so the people can judge it and come to understand Mr CAMERON - Newstead previously had a what rotten legislation it is. That is the second reason fully operational one-man police station and the that debate on the bill ought to be delayed. policeman has a rapport with the local people because he lives in the community and has a local The third reason is that the introduction of the knowledge of the area. Earlier this year the legislation today is the worst example I can imagine policeman at Newstead became ill. Since then the of policy on the run from the government in its five station has had a policeman two and a half days a years in office. The bill was supposed to be read a week. That policeman has come from Castlemaine. second time straight after question time today. It Mount Alexander Shire Council reports that for the was not ready as further changes were being made two and a half days a week that there has been no to it. It has been read a second time in the dead of policeman there has been a dramatic rise in the night, so it is too late for the press to report on it. antisocial behaviour. The shire seeks the retention of the station as a one-man operational police station. MI Honeywood interjected. On behalf of the community, the shire and local ward Cr Skilbeck, I ask the minister to give an Mr BRUMBY - It was meant to come in straight assurance tonight that there will be a fully after question time but it has had exactly the same operational one-man police station at Newstead for treatment as the City Link and casino legislation. the future and that that occurs as quickly as possible. Anything that is unpopular, anything that does not add up and anything for which the arguments are Echuca and Moama Search and Rescue not made out, the government pushes through in the Squad dead of night so there is no opportunity for proper scrutiny by the press and the public. It is a Mr MAUGHAN (Rodney) - I raise for the shemozzle. This is the fifth set of legislative changes attention of the Minister for Police and Emergency to this legislation in five years - and you still Services the ability of the Echuca and Moama Search haven't got it right! and Rescue Squad to carry out rescue and body recovery activities in the River Murray, not only at Debate interrupted pursuant to sessional orders. Echuca but also upstream to Cobram and downstream to Swan Hill. ADJOURNMENT The Echuca and Moama Search and Rescue Squad is The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! Time a group of volunteers who spend a great deal of time appointed under sessional orders for me to interrupt improving their skills for road accident rescue and the business of the house has arrived. diving activities. They are highly trained and have been well equipped by the generous donations of the Police: N ewstead station people of Echuca and surrounding areas. More than half the members of that squad are qualified with Mr CAMERON (Bendigo West) - I raise a internationally accepted diving standards. matter for the attention of the Minister for Police and Emergency Services about policing in Newstead. On As honourable members would appreciate, the River behalf of the Newstead community I ask that the Murray is technically in New South Wales; therefore police station be kept open and that Newstead the squad, if it is to do body recoveries or diving immediately return to being a one-man police work, must be subject to the New South Wales station. One-man police stations play an important requirements. The difficulty is that the New South part in small towns like Newstead. Wales government through its Attorney-General requires that divers operating in New South Wales Mr Brumby - On a point of order, Mr Deputy must be accredited to the internationally accepted Speaker, I did not hear you say that I would have ADJOURNM ENT

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AS2299 standard - a very high standard that telephone counselling between 31 December and applies to deepwater divers. May. Parents Without Partners runs a 24-hour telephone counselling line and Parents Anonymous In the River Murray we do not need deepwater operates a 7.00 a.m. to midnight counselling line. divers; we need divers with high qualifications who The minister needs to ensure that funding is are able to deal with rivers and streams and dams. available in the period December to May. I refer to As things stand at the moment, if there were a the Parents Anonymous information sheet that was tragedy in Echuca - and there have been two on circulated to members of Parliament, which states previous occasions - the New South Wales police that the service has provided 6500 hours free would prevent the Echuca and Moama Search and volunteer time which would have cost the Rescue Squad from even entering the water. I put government and the community almost $100 000. the scenario that there will be a tragedy in the River Parents Anonymous is not asking for an indefinite Murray near Echuca and the highly trained Echuca continuation of its funding but it believes it is and Moama Search and Rescue Squad will be on the important for parents to have funding for scene, ready to act to recover people who are counselling prior to the introduction of the parent trapped but not necessarily drowned, while divers help line. I ask the minister to address the matter. are brought in from Sydney or elsewhere. Bushfires: prevention I have written to the New South Wales police commissioner on this issue. I ask the minister to seek Mr TREASURE (Gippsland East) - I refer the support from the New South Wales police Minister for Police and Emergency Services to the commissioner to accept internationally accepted dry season affecting much of Victoria and certainly diving standards but less than the AS2299 East Gippsland. Indications are that this season will requirement sought in that state. As I say, this is a see a record low level of moisture in forests. highly trained group of people with the necessary Roadsides are very dry and have long grass. equipment who are prepared to rescue people from Although paddocks are short of feed, once again the River Murray. I seek the minister's support. they are extremely dry and capable of maintaining fires in the coming months. Will the minister inform Family services: telephone counselling the house of the preparedness of our emergency services? The ever-growing fear is that this year, Ms CAMPBELL (Pascoe Vale) - I ask the which has been much drier than 1982 when the Minister for Youth and Community Services to horrific Ash Wednesday fires swept across Victoria, advise Parents Without Partners and Parents might well be even worse. The high country I know Anonymous that he will continue to provide so well is extremely dry. The bushland covering funding to the two existing parent telephone three-quarters of my electorate is in the driest counselling lines even as he unravels the mess in his condition ever. It is imperative that not only are fire own department which has caused the tender for brigades on the alert, but that all other emergency Parentline to go beyond its commencement time of services in the emergency service plan are in a state 1 February to May. of preparedness in case our fears are realised. All honourable members hope that will not happen, that In question time today we learnt from the Minister the summer will not be as dry as anticipated and for Youth and Community Services that Parentline that we will get through summer without large would begin operation in May 1998. I refer the house numbers of bushfires. Indications are that with El and the minister to the Department of Human Nmo affecting a large part of the continent, we face Services tender brief from the Office of the Family one of the driest and hottest seasons on record with entitled Parentline August 1997. Page 12 of the the potential for it to be almost as bad as 1939 when tender brief talks about the establishment strategy nearly all Victoria's forests went up in smoke. and the operation date of 1 February 1998. The minister has written to the two organisations stating Will the minister inform the house of the emergency that their funding would cease as of 31 December services' plans for this summer and their state of 1997 because the new parent helpline would be in preparedness? Is there an opportunity to recruit and operation and their services would no longer be train young firefighters, because young people have needed. an interest in our future and should be included in long-term plans? The opposition's concern - and the concern of these two organisations - is that there will not be parent ADJOURNMENT

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Public transport: privatisation specialist historic buildings cannot be found elsewhere in Australia. Mr BA TCHELOR (Thomastown) - I refer the Minister for Transport to the deteriorating staff The oldest building on the Momington Peninsula is morale in the Public Transport Corporation on the Point Nepean site. All the buildings have following the government's announcement of the been well maintained by the army. It has done a break-up and privatisation of Victoria's public tremendous job preserving this historic site on the transport system. Will the minister have the matter peninsula. The land has a beautiful bay frontage, urgently investigated? If he cannot find out what is boasting a nursery for dolphins off the coast. During wrong will he call in outside specialist help because the summer season more than 100 dolphins can be staff morale is an extremely important matter? The found. There is a cliff face on the back beach side specialist help should commence with the minister and magnificent surf beaches. There is also quite a and work its way down the hierarchy. large area of pristine bushland incorporated in the site. The government's plans for transport are nothing short of transport vandalism. The destructive After many years of occupation at Point Nepean, the changes are intended to destroy staff morale. The army is moving to Bonegilla in February. It will government proposes institutional changes, maintain the property until a new owner takes over. resulting in key people leaving the corporation. The There are multiple potential uses for the land. It institutional strength, creativity and memory of the could be incorporated into the Momington PrC is being destroyed by the current minister's Peninsula National Park. It is a valuable historic site plans and the policies imposed by the Treasurer. The for tourism purposes. It also has potential as an latest news to filter out of the besieged PrC reveals accommodation and convention centre. Will the that Simon Lane, a former manager of Met Trains Minister investigate how this valuable asset can be and more recently managing director of Bayside saved? How best can the state take advantage of this Trains, is heading off to greener pastures. I raise his wonderful opportunity that presents itself on the case in particular with the minister, for clarification. Momington Peninsula, especially as a tourist Can the minister keep Simon Lane working within attraction that would provide a much-needed public transport in Melbourne? He is a public injection of funds into our economy? servant with an eye for operational detail. He knows what the customers want. He obviously cannot Courts: delays stomach what the government has already done and what it plans to do. On 9 October, under instructions MI5 MADDIGAN (Essendon) - In the absence from the Treasurer, the minister announced the of the Attorney-General I direct the attention of the reshaping of the PrC as a precursor to its break-up. Minister for Tertiary Education and Training to the One month later Simon Lane is off. He knows the delays associated with court hearings. Can the case I measures the government plans to institute in public highlight be investigated to ensure that other people transport will produce the worst possible outcome. do not find themselves in the same situation as one The opposition calls on the minister to have staff student at a state secondary school? I will not go into morale and the deserting of key public servants in the case details because it will be before the court the corporation investigated as soon as possible. next year. However, it relates to an assault that occurred in 1990. A number of representations have Point Nepean: army land been made to the Minister for Education. In his response he addressed the delays in court Mr DIXON (Dromana) - I refer the Minister for proceedings that have caused considerable concem Conservation and Land Management to the army and financial hardship to the young student land at Point Nepean, west of Portsea at the bottom involved. of the Momington Peninsula. During the 1950s the land belonged to the officer cadet school. When that A writ was issued in 1993. In September 1995 there moved to Canberra it was taken over by the Army was a pre-trial conference, and the trial took place in School of Health and, more recently, it was used by October 1995. In February 1996 the case was fifth on the army logistics training centre. The site housed the reserve list but was not heard because no judge the quarantine station and immigrants carrying was available to hear it. On 30 August 1996 it was contagious disease were off-loaded from ships at not heard, again because no judge was available to Portsea to spend time in quarantine. Those types of hear it. On 3 May 1997 it was again not heard as no judge was available. The matter was relisted with ADJOURNMENT

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1087 priority for 30 September 1997, but on that date the some of the damage that is being done to the morale listing was vacated because a student witness was not only of prisoners and prison officers but also of overseas. The new trial has been set for May 1998. the long-suffering relatives who from time to time have to suffer bad publicity about their loved ones. It will be eight years since the assault took place. The That is not helped at all by the tirades put out by the person involved has had numerous operations and honourable member for Yan Yean, who seems to other medical treatment and as a result is severely revel in upsetting prisoners and their families and out of pocket. I ask the Attorney-General to prison staff. I urge the minister to take action to investigate the matter and to ensure that the legal improve morale so the people managing the prison process moves more quickly so that young students can again have the confidence of the government can exercise their rights rather than having to wait and be able to run it as -- for more than 10 years to gain satisfaction. The DEPUlY SPEAKER - Order! The Fulham Correctional Centre: security honourable member's time has expired.

Mr E. R. SMITH (Glen Waverley) - The matter I Lower Plenty Road: widening raise for the attention of the Minister for Corrections concerns a number of newspaper articles that began Mr LANGDON (Ivanhoe) - I call for the urgent in the Sunday Herald Sun on a privatised prison - intervention of the Minister for Transport in the the Fulham Correctional Centre at Fulham, near Sale. public consultation on the widening of Lower Plenty Road in my electorate, which borders Bundoora, The story in Sunday's paper included some startling because I believe the current public consultation allegations of impropriety at the prison, including process is a farce. the following: A leaflet from two upper house members, the Minimum security prisoners being stood over by other Honourable Carlo Furletti and the Honourable Bill criminals and forced to use their privileges to bring Forwood, was included in the local paper. It said drugs and other prohibited substances into the jail ... A how wonderful the government was in acting low-security prisoner was able to walk out of the jail quickly to allocate $5.5 million for the widening of with other visitors and was not missed until he Lower Plenty Road, and so on. It failed to mention returned ... Fears prison officers would be attacked in that the government shelved the project in 1992, the open-plan gaol, which does not separate hardcore when it first came to office, but that is another story. and minimum-security prisoners. As a local member I have wanted to be involved in Prisoners anning themselves against attacks from other the whole process, but I have been denied that inmates- opportunity by the government, which has not allowed members of Parliament to attend the because standover tactics were being used by meetings. However, two members of Parliament prisoners against other prisoners. attended a public meeting on 18 August - Sherryl Garbutt, the honourable member for Bundoora, and The honourable member for Yan Ye an, who we me. The two upper house members were nowhere to know will always interject, could not help but get on be seen. That is a typical example. the bandwagon. So on Monday he put out a press release - it was reported in the Herald Sun on I am now getting letters from residents outlining Monday - in which he talked about hardened their concerns about the process. One such letter is maximum security inmates taking part in the from a resident of Lower Plenty Road who says: attacks. Anyone who knows anything about prison life will know that they do not have maximum I have grave concerns in regards to the proposed security prisoners down there. The honourable roadworks on Lower Plenty Road. It is obvious that member for Yan Yean could not help but get on the Vicroads haven't made any attempt to research nor bandwagon, because that is his usual way of getting have they considered other options. A 5.5 million dollar cheap publicity. He thinks making scurrilous bandaid is no solution and a terrible waste of taxpayers allegations will get him publicity. money ... Do Vicroads have any concept of what will actually happen to the traffic after these roadworks are I call on the minister to find out what is going on complete? Have they considered the impact on other down in the prison at Fulham and to try to rectify roads in the area? ... Three lanes of traffic will come ADJOURNMENT

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screaming down Greensborough Road into Lower raised with the minister the need for additional Plenty Road and then try and squeeze itself into the police. Currently seven police are allocated to the two (narrow) lanes of Rosanna Road. But worse ... township of Cobram, but a senior constable is yet to be allocated and two constable positions are The writer says the road then moves through two currently vacant. If those positions were filled it lots of intersections and black spots before would bring the number of police in the township to narrowing into one lane through the cutting. 10. Another such resident is concerned about bikes. I seek an assurance from the minister that the Mr Phillips - On a point of order, Mr Deputy number of police stationed at Cobram will be back to Speaker, the honourable member for Ivanhoe was its full strength of 10 as soon as possible so that the quoting from a letter. I ask that it be tabled. township has an increased police presence and the problems that have recently occurred within the The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The township and in its surrounding areas can be honourable member for Northcote will table the addressed. letter at the end of the debate. Responses Mr LANGDON - Mr Deputy Speaker, for two days you have called me the honourable member for Mrs TEHAN (Minister for Conservation and Northcote. I would like his majority. Land Management) - The honourable member for Dromana referred to the quarantine centre and the The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I will get you army barracks on Momington Peninsula which are right in the end. surrounded by the Momington Peninsula National Park. Any member who has visited this remarkable Mr LANGDON - The second letter concerns the area would recognise its special qualities, not only use of bicycles. The writer says that officers laughed its natural assets in a prime position overlooking the at the proposal- - bay and surrounded by a pristine land, as the honourable member for Dromana described, but The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The also the significant cultural and historic interest honourable member's time has expired. associated with the buildings that remain from the original quarantine centre where people were sent Police: Cobram station for some considerable time.

Mr JASPER (Murray Valley) - I draw to the The area also has a remarkable museum that has attention of the Minister for Police and Emergency been run partly by the army and partly by a group Services the continuing need for additional police to of dedicated and knowledgeable people called the be stationed at the township of Cobram. Friends of the Museum. They are responsible for the collection of items and goods relating to the history The house will be aware that I have raised this of the quarantine centre. Wherever you look the land matter on previous occasions. I sought from the represents a tremendous asset and is of enormous former Minister for Police and Emergency Services value. It has a long history of military involvement. the allocation of additional police officers at Cobram and asked him to consider the establishment of a There is a touch of sadness in that the logistical 24-hour police station to service the Moira shire. training centre, which incorporated the army school After an investigation, the indications were that of health, is now moving from the centre. The there was no justification for a 24-hour police station government has registered its interest in the land at Cobram. However, it was acknowledged that and buildings with the commonwealth. It is consideration needed to be given to providing probably premature to indicate how this will additional police resources. At that time resources develop, but it would add a wonderful component were increased. A van was allocated to the area and to the MOmington Peninsula National Park, because an additional car was provided. access to the area is through the park. The maintenance of the historic buildings would be a The township of Cobram is experiencing difficulties tremendous responsibility. As the honourable with criminal activity, including an increase in member said, although the buildings have been very breaking and entering and additional vandalism well maintained by the army, considerable resources around the township. In correspondence I have would be required for continuing maintenance. ADJOURNMENT

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It is a prime part of Victoria's history, culture and season. Today the chairman of the Country Fire natural assets and the government is keen to Authority attended Parliament House to brief negotiate with the commonwealth to have it become country members as they gear up for the part of the Victorian estate. I commend the forthcoming fire season. The honourable member is honourable member for Dromana on his interest and utterly right; it will be a difficult summer. I was in obvious pride in the area. I will keep him apprised Sale on Tuesday morning when the industry of the negotiations and developments as they occur. brigades that assist in the Amcor forests were competing against one another. Because industry Mr W. D. McGRATH (Minister for Police and brigades work cooperatively alongside CFA Emergency Services) - The honourable member for brigades many forests in the Gippsland region will Bendigo West referred to the vacancy at the have their protection enhanced. Although I take on Newstead police station. I have announced a dear board the comments of the honourable member for policy on behalf of the government. There will be no Gippsland East that the CF A has done good work in closures of one-man police stations across Victoria relation to fire suppression, I remind the honourable during the life of this Parliament. That is in complete member and all Victorians that they are obliged to contrast to the policy announced by Race Mathews be prepared for the fire season by carrying out fire and Steve Crabb when they were police ministers. suppression activities and strategies around their They had a clear policy about closing one-man properties to lessen the chance of fire. The CF A does police stations. a marvellous job and that will continue through the fire season as it has in years gone by. It is fair to say that there is some difficulty attracting police officers to one-man police stations in many The honourable member for Murray Valley referred parts of Victoria. It is also fair to say that a member to the Cobram police station. He rightly said I for North Western Province in another place, received a deputation from a municipality in his Mr Ron Best, has raised this issue with me on a area requesting a 24-hour police station. However, it number of occasions. It is the responsibility of the is not possible to provide that type of facility at Chief Commissioner of Police to fill those vacancies, Cobram. It can be difficult when police officers go on but, as I said, it is difficult to find people who are sick leave. Although officers may be on long-term prepared to go there. sick leave for stress or other problems, vacancies cannot be advertised. One of the difficulties for the Mr Haermeyer interjected. chief commissioner is that the position remains with the police station. Once again I will direct the Mr W. D. McGRA TH - The honourable member comments of the honourable member for Murray for Yan Yean is barking away again! It is difficult to Valley to the attention of the chief commissioner. At attract or convince police officers, particularly young the end of the day it is his responsibility to manage police officers, to go to some one-man stations. the police force under his command and to place those officers. The honourable member for Rodney referred to the Echuca and Moama Search and Rescue Squad and The honourable member for Glen Waverley raised the difficulties it faces with the New South Wales with me an article in the Sunday Herald Sun. I was authorities allowing it to undertake search and concerned when I read the comments in that article rescue exercises on the River Murray. He rightly so I made sure that I had them checked out identified that the boundary between New South yesterday morning, and it is necessary to correct Wales and Victoria finishes on the bank on the some of the inaccuracies. The article alleges that the Victorian side of the River Murray. Therefore if the general manager of prisons received an unsigned squad has to go into the river for a rescue it needs letter warning that a fire and a riot would take place approval from the New South Wales authorities. The at Fulham Correctional Centre on 2 November and honourable member advised me that he has written as a result the prison was locked down. I am advised to the New South Wales police minister. If he that there was no specific letter. The prison was not furnishes me with a copy of his letter I will make locked down, nor was a special service conducted. further representations to the Honourable The general manager has advised me that he told the Paul Whelan to see whether the difficulties author of the article in the Sunday Herald Sun that experienced by the squad can be overcome. the prison frequently received and acted upon advice from prisoners. The honourable member for Gippsland East referred to the state's preparedness for the forthcoming fire ADJOURNM ENT

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While the honourable member for Glen Waverley Victoria is well served by the private sector. The was directing his concerns to my attention the Deputy Premier, the former Minister for Corrections, honourable member for Yan Yean interjected, 'Sack introduced the process and we have a great the manager'. The opposition does not understand opportunity to benchmark the private and public and hates with a passion the privatisation of public sectors because 45 per cent of prison bed sector enterprises. Time and again we hear these accommodation is managed by the private sector inane interjections. The honourable member for Yan and 55 per cent is managed by the public sector. I Yean was reported in the article as saying that an assure the house that management is doing well in independent audit of security should be conducted. both sectors. It will never be perfect because of the There is no need for an independent audit of types of people that have to be kept away from security. society, but the managers endeavour to carry out the rehabilitation and correction of those people to the Mr Haermeyer interjected. best of their ability.

Mr W. D. McGRATH -It is better to have Mr HONEYWOOD (Minister for Tertiary accurate information than hearsay. Education and Training) - The honourable member for Pascoe Vale raised for the attention of the Mr Haermeyer interjected. Minister for Community Services an issue relating to Parents Without Partners and Parents Anonymous Mr W. D. McGRATH - I have been there; I obtaining funding for a help-line phone service that opened the place. has been doing some parenting counselling. I am sure all honourable members would agree that Honourable members interjecting. self-help groups are important. I am well aware of the support and attention given to these groups by The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Chair has the Minister for Community Services because he had enough. A little bit of everything is nice but too recently asked me to hand over a cheque to a similar much of some things is terrible, and we have had the service in my electorate. That is a good example of latter. I ask that the minister be allowed to continue the government's support for parenting and without interjections across the table so that we may parenting counselling. I shall refer the specific proceed to an orderly closure of the adjournment details to the minister. debate. The honourable members for Thomastown and Mr W. D. McGRATH - The management of the Ivanhoe raised separate matters for the attention of prison is following the contract arrangements that the Minister for Transport. The honourable member have been put in place. It is overseen by the for Thomastown made allegations about low morale Commissioner, Correctional Services, Mr John Van in the Public Transport Corporation as a result of the Groningen. There will always be problems in gaols proposed restructure and referred to creativity being because they are a particular environment. Prisoners lost. Honourable members will recall the creativity are in gaols because they are law-breakers, and those that applied to the Public Transport Corporation who have the responsibility of managing prisons when the former Labor government -- will always be put to the test. Mr Haermeyer - On a point of order, Mr Deputy The article in the Sunday Herald Sun written by Speaker, on a previous occasion you ruled that Wayne Jones is inaccurate and does not reflect the during the adjournment debate a minister comments made by Mr Terry Easthope, the general responsible for answering questions on behalf of manager, just as yesterday's article in the Herald Sun another minister should indicate that he or she on the annual report of the Department of Justice understands the issue being raised but should not was inaccurate. It says: get into the substantive matters raised for the attention of the other minister. The Minister for The number of medium security prisoners in Victorian Tertiary Education and Training is currently getting gaols almost doubled last year while there were about into the substantive issues raised by the honourable 400 fewer maximum security prisoners. member for Thomastown, and he should not debate the issue. The statement in the annual report to which the article refers concerns the number of prison places The DEPUfY SPEAKER - Order! The Chair and has nothing to do with prisoners. cannot remember having made that ruling. The only ADJ OURNM ENT

Wednesday, 12 November 1997 ASSEMBLY 1091 time the Chair would be likely to rule in that way is how he had been left out of the loop, so to speak, in when a minister was attempting to respond on terms of the involvement in the issue of to what behalf of a minister who was present in the chamber. extent the road should be widened and certain The Minister for Tertiary Education and Training issues taken into consideration. It seems to me it was has indicated that he is taking on board the issues really a complaint that his two upper house raised by the honourable member for Thomastown, members, the Honourable Carlo Furletti and the and there is precedent in this place allowing Honourable Bill Forwood in another place, had ministers to, if you like, pass opinion or comment taken the initiative, as they are well known as about some of the substantive issues raised, but at conscientious upper house members who are very the end they say that they will pass on the issue to concerned about road issues in particular. Those two the relevant minister. honourable members are well known for their ability to lobby effectively with the relevant minister. We I do not see anything different happening tOnight can well understand the honourable member for from what has happened previously. I believe the Ivanhoe being concerned because he is irrelevant, point of order raised by the honourable member for but if he wants to become relevant to such lobbying Yan Yean refers to a case where a minister was activities he should be part of the action rather than attempting to reply to a matter directed to another allowing his own show to run separately. minister even though that minister was in the chamber. Finally, the honourable member for Essendon raised a matter for the attention of the Attorney-General to Mr HONEYWOOD - The honourable member do with court proceedings that have allegedly gone for Thomastown referred to the lack of creativity in on for too long. She used the example of an assault the Public Transport Corporation. If he is referring case involving a student that originated in 1990. We to the creativity that led to empty buses returning to all respect the fact the honourable member for Warrandyte so that the drivers could have lunch Essendon has not attempted to go into any detail on breaks at the North Fitzroy depot and then would a case which is currently before the court. In offering come out empty 2 hours later to restart the service, it to pass this matter on to the Attorney-General I is the sort of creativity we can do without. should add that the government has increased the number of judges from the number that existed Notwithstanding the concerns of the honourable under the previous government. Not only have we member for Thomastown about low morale, I am increased the number of judges in all jurisdictions, sure the Minister for Transport will address the but from time to time we have carried out reviews of issues as part of the government's restructure the amount of time taken by court cases and initiatives. When the government has undertaken restructured a number of the timing and court the restructure of public enterprises in the past it has scheduling arrangements to ensure a greater had the interests of workers at the forefront of its turnover of court cases than existed under the policy and has ensured that they are well informed previous Labor government. Nonetheless, I will about the restructure proposals and are refer that matter to the Attorney-General. appropriately compensated for any loss of jobs. The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The house The other issue raised for the attention of the stands adjourned until next day. Minister for Transport by the honourable member for Ivanhoe related to the widening of a road. The House adjourned 10.52 p.m. honourable member raised certain allegations about 1092 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 12 November 1997