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Justice Sub-Committee on Policing Tuesday 9 June 2020 Session 5 © Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.parliament.scot or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000 Tuesday 9 June 2020 CONTENTS Col. DECISION ON TAKING BUSINESS IN PRIVATE ....................................................................................................... 1 POLICING DURING THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC ............................................................................................... 2 JUSTICE SUB-COMMITTEE ON POLICING 6th Meeting 2020, Session 5 CONVENER *John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) DEPUTY CONVENER *Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) *Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) *Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) *Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) *Shona Robison (Dundee City East) (SNP) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Chief Constable Iain Livingstone (Police Scotland) John Scott QC CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Diane Barr LOCATION Virtual Meeting 1 9 JUNE 2020 2 Scottish Parliament Policing During the Coronavirus Pandemic Justice Sub-Committee on Policing 10:01 Tuesday 9 June 2020 The Convener: Agenda item 2 is an evidence session on policing during the coronavirus pandemic. I refer members to paper 1, which is a [The Convener opened the meeting at 10:00] note by the clerk, and paper 2, which is a private paper. Decision on Taking Business in I welcome our first witness today. John Scott Private QC is chair of the independent advisory group on police use of temporary powers related to the The Convener (John Finnie): Madainn mhath, coronavirus crisis. I invite Mr Scott to make some a h-uile duine, agus fàilte. Good morning, brief opening remarks. everyone, and welcome to the sixth meeting in 2020 of the Justice Sub-Committee on Policing. John Scott QC: Thank you very much, We have no apologies. convener. Under agenda item 1, the sub-committee will The crisis led to exceptional demands on decide whether to take in private agenda item 3, policing almost at the outset, with the under which we will review the evidence that we unprecedented emergency powers. To take a step will hear today. The sub-committee will also back, it is worth recording that Police Scotland has decide whether future approaches or amendments done an extraordinary job in a very short space of to its work programme, approaches to all calls for time in adjusting to, disseminating and evidence, evidence that has been taken and all communicating the new powers. draft reports should be considered in private Our interim report does most of the talking for during the Covid-19 public health emergency. Do me at this stage. However, I will elaborate on it members agree to take those items in private? slightly. Members indicated agreement. I have been in contact with colleagues in the human rights field in other countries, and it appears that Scotland is ahead of the game in having human rights-based scrutiny of the emergency powers. I have spoken to colleagues in England and Northern Ireland, and I am now moving further afield. That the initiative for the advisory group came from within Police Scotland is an extremely healthy sign, and it is very well supported by the Scottish Police Authority. The key scrutiny bodies are involved in the advisory group, and that ensures that no one steps on anyone else’s toes. The statutory human rights bodies are also involved, so everything is seen through a human rights prism. In a significant number of ways, Police Scotland’s success can be seen through public surveys. From our work, it appears that the idea of policing by consent has been given fresh life through the crisis and through the way that Police Scotland has managed to speak with a single voice when communication has been very important. At times, there have been mixed or confused messages from the United Kingdom Government to constabularies south of the border. Although I was not an advocate of Police Scotland beforehand, the fact that the chief constable and Police Scotland can speak with a single voice avoids some of the confusion that has been caused elsewhere. 3 9 JUNE 2020 4 Our public portal went live at the beginning of helping us with the data requests to Police last week, so we have started to get feedback Scotland and analysing the data when we get it. from the public. There is a range of views but, on Susan and I are members of the Police Scotland balance, people are positive. For example, in a OpTICAL group, which is there to serve by single day, someone said that they wanted martial providing data. OpTICAL is meeting today—it is law to be introduced, so they were not so happy meeting at the same time as the sub-committee. with how things were, but someone else in the The group includes renowned human rights Western Isles—which of the isles was campaigner Aamer Anwar, who probably needs no unspecified—said that the discretion that was introduction to the sub-committee. It also includes taken there was entirely appropriate. It was Tressa Burke from the Glasgow Disability Alliance. recognised, for example, that people might have to The thinking there was that, in the very early travel 15 miles to go to a supermarket. Things are stages, one of the potential issues related to those therefore very positive. with hidden disabilities. Although the message We are getting support from Police Scotland, was that people had to stay at home, some people and the operation talla information, assurance and with hidden disabilities might be out for longer or liaison—OpTICAL—group has been set up to get might need to rest more than others. Tressa has us access to data. We hope to be able to make been helping to keep us right on that. more meaningful statements on data within the The group includes Dr Catriona Stewart from next few weeks. The next Scottish Police Authority the Scottish Women’s Autism Network for a similar board meeting to which we will report is on 30 reason: it was thought that autistic people might June. When you are thinking about further find themselves in situations of tension or conflict evidence sessions, a useful part of continuing with the police simply as a result of their desire for work in this area might be to look at the data. more clarity than was necessarily available in the The Convener: Thank you for those opening early stages. Catriona prepared a paper—as did remarks, and for providing the sub-committee with Tressa Burke—to assist Police Scotland with a copy of the advisory group’s interim report, awareness of what officers on the ground might which is most useful. encounter. We now move to questions. I remind everyone The situation is all driven by public health—it is to allow broadcasting a few seconds to operate public health policing, really—so we have Dr their microphones before they begin to ask a Elizabeth Kelly, who will be familiar to many of question or provide an answer. you. She continues to practise as a general practitioner in a rural area, but also has significant I will start. The independent advisory group has connections through work in Government over a a very wide membership. Could you briefly run large number of years. We also have Ephraim through who is represented on the group and Borowski, who, again, is familiar to many of you. outline why such a wide membership is required? He is the chair of Police Scotland’s national John Scott: Of course. The initial call for the independent strategic advisory group. There is a group to be set up came from the chief constable, meeting of that group this week, which I will and I was very quickly in contact with the acting attend. chair of the Scottish Police Authority. We I hope that I have not missed anyone out. The decided—as chair of the group, the call was group also includes Naomi McAuliffe from mine—that we wanted to have representation that Amnesty International Scotland, so the third sector was as broad as possible, informed by the model is represented. of the independent advisory group on stop and search, which, as the sub-committee will recall, I People send substitutes at times, and we have chaired back in 2015. The new group has a similar had guest speakers along to inform us. One composition but a wider membership. example is Professor Steve Reicher, who I know has been engaged in regular discussions with We have on board representation from Police Governments around the world on policing the Scotland, the Scottish Police Authority and Her pandemic. Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland. It was very important to have all those The group has a wide membership, but it is co- bodies on the group. The deputy Crown Agent, ordinated in a way that means that those who John Logue, is involved, as are the statutory have statutory responsibilities and those with other human rights bodies, including the Children and scrutiny roles come together at the table. They will Young People’s Commissioner Scotland, the deal with the things that they need to deal with, but Scottish Human Rights Commission and the we collaborate—it is an extremely collaborative Equality and Human Rights Commission. We have process. People can see that there are clean and Susan McVie from the academic world, who did a clear lines that avoid any unnecessary duplication. lot of tremendous work on stop and search and is 5 9 JUNE 2020 6 The Convener: It is a wide and talented are prompted by the data will be accompanied by membership.

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