Vol. 812 Tuesday No. 17 15 June 2021

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Questions Children with Genetic Conditions: Specialist Support ...... 1755 Private Landlords: Tenants with Pets ...... 1758 Armed Forces: Transition to Civilian Life...... 1762 British Airways and Ryanair: Customer Refunds...... 1765 Age of Criminal Responsibility Bill [HL] First Reading...... 1769 Modern Slavery (Amendment) Bill [HL] First Reading...... 1769 Ethiopia Commons Urgent Question...... 1769 Covid-19 Update Statement...... 1774 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] Second Reading...... 1790

Grand Committee Climate Change Act 2008 (Credit Limit) Order 2021 Considered in Grand Committee ...... GC 377 Conformity Assessment (Mutual Recognition Agreements) and Weights and Measures (Intoxicating Liquor) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 Considered in Grand Committee ...... GC 387 Common Organisation of the Markets in Agricultural Products (Fruit and Vegetable Producer Organisations, Tariff Quotas and Wine) (Amendment etc.) Regulations 2021 Considered in Grand Committee ...... GC 394 Public Procurement (International Trade Agreements) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 Considered in Grand Committee ...... GC 405 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2021-06-15

In Hybrid sittings, [V] after a Member’s name indicates that they contributed by video call.

The following abbreviations are used to show a Member’s party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour Lab Co-op Labour and Co-operative Party LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2021, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1755 Arrangement of Business[15 JUNE 2021] Children with Genetic Conditions 1756

House of Lords Baroness Eaton (Con) [V]: I commend the Government on their growing support for family hubs. The original Tuesday 15 June 2021 Breakthrough Britain report recommended these, high- lighting their role as a one-stop shop for families with The House met in a hybrid proceeding. disabled children, which would greatly help those with often very debilitating genetic conditions. Can my noble friend the Minister advise the House of what plans there Noon are to expand the remit of family hubs to include this?

Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Leeds. Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, a number of family hubs are already in operation but the department has just finished procurement for a national centre for Arrangement of Business family hubs as part of the £14 million allocated to this. Announcement Part of that role will be to ensure that best practice is spread across England. The noble Baroness is correct 12.06 pm that these centres should be a hub of voluntary,statutory and other services for families, including those with The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): My special educational needs and disabilities. Lords, the Hybrid Sitting of the House will now commence. Some Members are here in the Chamber Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab): My Lords, the and others are participating remotely, but all Members head of Ofsted has highlighted that children with will be treated equally. I ask all Members to respect special educational needs and disabilities have incurred social distancing and wear face coverings while in some of the biggest learning losses from schools closing, the Chamber except when speaking. If the capacity noting: of the Chamber is exceeded, I will immediately adjourn “Many have genuinely gone backwards in basic skills, language, the House. numbers”. Oral Questions will now commence. Please can This is because too many seriously ill children did not those asking supplementary questions keep them to receive—and in some cases are still not receiving— no longer than 30 seconds and confined to two points? adequate support for their disability or medical condition I ask that Ministers’ answers are also brief. through health services or school, despite having education, health and care plans. What consideration have the Government given to the need for a therapies Children with Genetic Conditions: catch-up plan for children who have regressed or plateaued Specialist Support in their speech, communication, physical development Question or social skills due to the pandemic, as called for by the Disabled Children’s Partnership?

12.06 pm Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, it is indeed Tabled by Lord Farmer correct that some of the learning lost has been greatest for those with special educational needs and disabilities. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps That was one of the reasons why, during both of the they intend to take to ensure that children with lockdowns when schools were closed, places were still (1) 22q11 deletion syndrome, and (2) other genetic available for many of those young people. They should conditions, receive specialist support to address now be accessing all the therapies and additional and prevent any loss of (a) learning, or (b) social support that the plan says they should receive.The recovery skills, due to the disruption of their education package has the flexibility that some of the money is during the COVID-19 pandemic. per-pupil and, therefore, schools can buy in the additional specialist support that the noble Lord outlines. Baroness Eaton (Con) [V]: On behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, and with his permission, I beg Lord Shinkwin (Con): My Lords, the absence of a leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the diagnosis or late diagnosis of 22q11 deletion syndrome Order Paper. means an inevitable impact on children’s educational support and outcomes during their school years. Can my noble friend the Minister shed some light on work TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department that she may be doing with the Department of Health for Education and Department for International Trade on the Government’s plans to increase the number of (Baroness Berridge) (Con): My Lords, we are committed conditions included in newborn screening for specialist to help all children, including those with genetic disorders, support, in line with other countries, and what to recover from the impact of lost learning during the consideration has been given to the inclusion of 22q11? pandemic. Following the most recent announcement on education recovery on 2 June, we have now allocated Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, as I understand over £3 billion to children and young people. We are it, this is the second most prevalent genetic disorder targeting those resources to support those in greatest after Down’s syndrome. I will take back to colleagues need; for example, special and alternative provision at the Department of Health the request as to whether schoolswillreceiveadditionalfundingtoensureone-on-one it is included in screening. This disorder apparently tutoring for their pupils. has a wide spectrum of effects, so some of those 1757 Children with Genetic Conditions[LORDS] Private Landlords: Tenants with Pets 1758

[BARONESS BERRIDGE] SEND, as well as providing support through the Family children are never identified during their school career, Fund, but I will ensure that the noble Baroness’s but the education, health and care plan should support request is taken back to the department to ensure that them if they do exhibit a need for extra support. we are aware of the full range of voluntary organisations. Diagnosis is not a precursor to having an EHCP; many Of course, during this time local authorities have also are diagnosed, some within mainstream provision in had £6 billion of unring-fenced money to support the schools and some in specialist provision. kind of organisations that the noble Baroness outlines. Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl): My Lords, will Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, I would the Minister hold a meeting to listen to representatives like to add to the list that the Minister is going to take from the National Society for Phenylketonuria and to the Department of Health and Social Care. This is young people with the genetic condition PKU so that about CAMH services. Clearly, the last 12 months the Government can learn more about the impact this have been very difficult in terms of providing CAMH has on children, their health and education, and consider services, but there is evidence that for some of the what more the Government could do to help them? children involved this has now become a very urgent Would she be good enough to invite her counterpart need. I wonder if she could discuss that matter with from the Department of Health to join such a meeting her colleagues. as well? Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, we work closely Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, noble Lords with them because of the nature of the work involved are wanting to put me in touch with my colleagues at in EHCPs, and we cannot underestimate the effects of the Department of Health today. I will take back that this period. During Mental Health Awareness Week, request, but I repeat that one of the key visions behind we announced £17 million that should allow 7,800 schools the 2014 reforms was that when a child exhibits a need to have a lead mental health practitioner within the for support they do not wait for diagnosis or any of school to provide the kind of support needed. By making that: schools or the family can get an EHCP and get schoolplacesavailableduringlockdown,weallowedschool the support in place that the child or young person leaders to identify vulnerable children who needed to needs. come into school for all kinds of reasons, including mental health issues. Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]: Over the last year,children with genetic conditions that give them severe physical Lord Wigley (PC) [V]: My Lords, I draw attention and/or learning disabilities and who are extremely to my registered links with Mencap. The Disabled vulnerable to Covid have often had no school, no carers Children’s Partnership, which has been mentioned, coming into their homes and no short breaks or has estimated that almost half of disabled children respite. Education, health and care plans are designed have lost confidence in communicating because of a for the whole child, so does the Minister agree that disruption or delay to speech and language therapy short breaks and respite are vital for children in order during Covid, a factor not adequately addressed in to address high levels of family exhaustion? Has the the Government’s education recovery plan. Will the departmentmadeanassessmentof whetherlocalauthorities Government, as a matter of urgency, please adjust the and CCGs are able to sustainably fund them? plan to meet the complex needs of such children and their families? Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords,the noble Baroness is correct that during the periods of lockdown the Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, the noble Lord pressure on these families was immense. Parliament is correct that early years and language development has passed legislation—in 2011, I believe—putting a were greatly affected during the lockdowns. That is statutory requirement on local authorities to look at one reason why early-years settings were kept open— the provision of short breaks for children with those because of the nature of that education provision. needs and their families. We have given support during We have allocated £18 million to early-years language this period, particularly to families of those with development, including £8 million to the Nuffield special educational needs, and through Family Fund Early Language Intervention, and I believe that the for those families on low incomes, amounting to around majority of primary schools have signed up for that. £27 million. Obviously, part of recovery and catch-up We are funding the initiatives that we help believe can for schools is helping precisely the children the local help those children to catch up. Baroness outlines. The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): My Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (Non-Afl): My Lords, Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked. catching up with lost learning will require the support of not just professionals but volunteer organisations Private Landlords: Tenants with Pets and families. Will the Minister therefore make sure, Question together with her colleagues at the Department of Health, that organisations such as Max Appeal, which 12.17 pm care particularly for children with 22q11, get the support Asked by Lord Black of Brentwood that is tailored to their very specific needs? To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, the department they are taking to encourage more private landlords funds a range of voluntary organisations through the to allow responsible tenants to keep pets in their £42 million that helps,for example,to deliver whole-school rented properties. 1759 Private Landlords: Tenants with Pets[15 JUNE 2021] Private Landlords: Tenants with Pets 1760

The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of bedroom, to the discomfort of visiting Ministers? Would Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord not the great man have been distressed that so many Greenhalgh) (Con): I draw attention to my residential landlords are denying their tenants the affection and and commercial property interests as set out in the register. companionship that loving pets provide? Perhaps my The Government want to improve life for tenants and noble friend can hear a famous voice muttering those recognise the importance of pets in people’s lives. Earlier words, “Action this day”, to get those new tenancy this year we published the revised national model tenancy agreements widely applied, so important in this context, agreement, the Government’s suggested contract for and to bear down on the landlords who are not using assured shorthold tenancy in the private rented sector. them at the moment. Werevised it to encourage landlords to allow responsible tenants to keep well-behaved pets in their home. Lord Greenhalgh (Con): I am grateful to my noble friend for pointing out the views of the great man. We Lord Black of Brentwood (Con) [V]: My Lords, recognise that domestic pets bring joy, happiness and during the difficult and often lonely days of lockdown, comfort to people’s lives. We have seen that particularly pets have been a vital source of companionship, well-being in the pandemic. We also recognise that the model and love for many people across the UK, especially the tenancy agreement is a step forward. We need to see its vulnerable. However, is my noble friend aware that, wider adoption, which is why we will work hard to according to Cats Protection, 1 million households ensure that landlords adopt it as often as possible. that would like to have a cat cannot do so because they live in a rental property? I welcome the changes made Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]: My Lords, I to the Government’s model tenancy agreement, which endorse the purpose of this Question. I declare my my noble friend mentioned, meaning that consent for interests as set out in the register, which inform these pets will be the default position for any landlord using comments that I hope are constructive. Is the Minister it, but not all landlords use the agreement as it is aware that it is possible to have conditions such as that voluntary. What action will the Government take to if pets become a problem, the offer is rescinded—and encourage landlords to use the model tenancy agreement also that it is possible to put in a clause stating that to allow all those who want to have a pet in their rented money must be charged for cleaning, especially where property the chance to do so? hairs become a problem. So there are ways that could help landlords give permission if they were encouraged Lord Greenhalgh (Con): My Lords, I am aware of to do so. the issue that my noble friend raises. The model tenancy agreement is the Government’s suggested contract with Lord Greenhalgh (Con): My Lords, I am aware that which to agree a tenancy and is freely available online. measures are in place to facilitate wider pet ownership We will continue to work with landlords and other in the private rented sector, and I encourage landlords stakeholders to ensure its wider adoption for use in the to work with tenants to ensure that there is a solution private rented sector. that works for both parties. Baroness Wheeler (Lab): My Lords, I understand from the excellent briefing from Battersea Dogs & Cats Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD): I draw Members’ Home that tenants’ housing problems resulting from attention to my interests as set out in the register. The people moving to a property that does not allow pets Government recognised the importance of pets and are the second most common reason why dogs are made changes to the model tenancy agreement. However, given to Battersea for rehoming. Battersea helped to not all landlords use that model agreement and it is develop the model tenancy agreement but key areas, voluntary, so some landlords can still say no to pets. such as defining what constitutes a reasonable excuse Animal welfare charities, including Cats Protection, for landlords to turn down a pet request or how any have helped tenants find lots of properties and use a appeals process might work, are still to be addressed. cat’s CV—a template that outlines details about pets How do the Government plan to take these issues forward? and shows responsibility of ownership. Will the Government encourage wider use of pet CVs to allow Lord Greenhalgh (Con): My Lords, it is fair to say more responsible pet owners to keep their pets in rented that Battersea Dogs & Cats Home has been involved accommodation? in the development of this agreement. Indeed Peter Laurie, the Battersea Dogs & Cats Home interim chief Lord Greenhalgh (Con): My Lords, we are happy to executive,welcomed the announcement that demonstrated look at any ideas that encourage wider pet ownership, the clear continued commitment to improving access and I will certainly take that back to the department to to pet ownership for renters as well as helping to consider. support and promote responsible pet ownership. The purpose of the agreement is to ensure that there is no Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): The Minister blanket ban on pets and to consider each pet on a keeps talking about encouraging flat owners to do the case-by-case basis, and to accept a pet where they are right thing and allow pets, but he did not answer the satisfied that the tenant is a responsible owner and the question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler: pet suitable for the premises. what are you actually doing to encourage this?

Lord Lexden (Con): Does my noble friend recall the Lord Greenhalgh (Con): My Lords, we have set out importance that Winston Churchill attached to his a model tenancy agreement that encourages wider pet pets, which included budgerigars that flew around his ownership. It also ensures that the landlord must 1761 Private Landlords: Tenants with Pets[LORDS] Armed Forces: Transition to Civilian Life 1762

[LORD GREENHALGH] for shorthold assured tenancies in January, to encourage give a clear reason why they will not accept a pet. This landlords to allow pets, what will the Government do agreement strikes a balance between making it easier to help allay landlords’ concerns over the inadequacy for responsible tenants to keep pets and ensuring that of a five-week deposit to address any pet damage at landlords are not forced to accept them. the end of the tenancy? Are there plans to allow for a larger deposit to be taken at the outset or, alternatively, Lord Young of Cookham (Con): My Lords, last a monthly sum to be added to the rent to pay for week the Public Services Committee took evidence damage that is refundable at the end of the tenancy to from a rough sleeper in Birmingham who was full of the extent that it is not required? I declare my interest praise for the Everyone In campaign, which helped in rental property as in the register, but I have no him and other rough sleepers into safe accommodation tenants who have asked to have a pet—although some last year. However, he told us that rough sleepers with have them quietly without mentioning it. dogs were now at risk because hostels would not accept them. Is my noble friend aware of this problem Lord Greenhalgh (Con): My noble friend is right to and does he have a solution? point out the impact of the Tenant Fees Act 2019. The Government recommend that the rental deposit of Lord Greenhalgh (Con): I am aware of the issue that five weeks is a maximum rather than a default. Charging my noble friend raises. We know how important pets a deposit of four weeks’ rent would provide leeway to are to many people, particularly rough sleepers. That expand it to five weeks for such things as pet ownership is why we have supported a number of local schemes and also to take up some of the suggestions that we enabling people to find accommodation that will also have heard today around insurance or potentially accept pets. Housing authorities need to be sensitive to looking at rent levels to accommodate wider pet the importance of pets to some applicants, particularly ownership. rough sleepers, and I thank my noble friend for raising this. The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): My Lords, the time allowed for the Question has elapsed. Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]: My Lords, We now come to the third Oral Question. depression and loneliness have an adverse impact on health and cost the country millions. Having someone or a pet to look after takes us out of ourselves, and Armed Forces: Transition to Civilian Life pets have undoubtedly helped mitigate the enforced Question isolation of the pandemic. Does the Minister agree that a more collaborative approach between landlords 12.28 pm and tenants in keeping tenants happy and keeping property in good condition would benefit both? Asked by Baroness Sherlock Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what assessment Lord Greenhalgh (Con): My Lords, we agree that it they have made of the support provided by the is precisely that which has required a collaborative Department for Work and Pensions to members of approach that landlords and tenants can work through the Armed Forces in their transition to civilian life. to find practical solutions and ensure wider pet ownership in the private rented sector. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Stedman-Scott) (Con): Lord Flight (Con): My Lords, I much agree with the My Lords, the vast majority of veterans are able to comments of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, make a successful transition to life outside the Armed and the noble Lord, Lord Singh. It is very important, Forces; 84% of veterans are employed within six months particularly for single older people, to be able to have a of discharge, and these rates compare very favourably pet. Some ideas to perhaps consider are that, if landlords with the wider population, where 76% are in employment. could render a modest additional rental for pets, it might The DWP provides support to veterans in a number of be more attractive to them, and it might be worthwhile ways, including through the early voluntary entry to requiring insurance policies to be taken out by tenants. the work and health programme, and support from its It might also be an idea to have a system of interviewing network of Armed Forces champions. tenants and choosing tenants who seem to be responsible with regard to pets. Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]: My Lords, in 2019 the Government committed up to £6 million to fund more Lord Greenhalgh (Con): My Lords, I thank my than 100 Armed Forces champions. They are there to noble friend for coming up with practical suggestions provide personnel, veterans and families with specialist for how tenants and landlords could work together to support to find work and transition to civilian life, and ensure wider pet ownership.It is of course for the landlord they are a key part of the Government’s commitment to consider each case on its merits. to the Armed Forces covenant. The Minister has now told me in a Written Answer that they now aim to hire Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]: My Lords, only 50 champions and have a record low of just 34 in pets have done much to help those recovering from post. So why have the Government abandoned this medical incidents.This cannot be overestimated. Following commitment to our Armed Forces, and how much of the updating of the Government’s model agreement that £6 million has actually been spent? 1763 Armed Forces: Transition to Civilian Life[15 JUNE 2021] Armed Forces: Transition to Civilian Life 1764

Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): The department’s Baroness Janke (LD) [V]: Can the noble Baroness top priority during the pandemic has been to focus on say what specific support is provided for families— processing claims and paying people quickly. As a particularly children—of members of our Armed Forces result, the planned recruitment for the Armed Forces to enable their transition, given that many of them will champion in April 2020 was paused. During that have spent time in different schools and different period, there was a lot of liaison with stakeholders locations and may find it difficult to transition after and various interested parties and a new model was their families leave the services? devised and got real support from all stakeholders. We now have, for the first time, middle-management lead Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): The effect on children roles and direct customer support for the 50 Armed living in different parts of the country and the world, Forces champions, and this combined support is well and the number of schools they have attended, is well supported. In addition to these people, of course the known. It is for the MoD to carry out this activity in veterans got the full service of all the work coaches in its resettlement programme. I will ask my friends in the DWP network. the Ministry of Defence to write to the noble Baroness with more detail. The Lord Bishop of St Albans [V]: My Lords, in the UK it is estimated that former Armed Forces personnel Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con): My Lords, it are eight times more likely to develop gambling problems was an enormous honour to serve as the Minister for than civilians. They suffer from higher rates of mental Veterans, probably the most rewarding job in government. health issues and alcohol problems, factors which may While that is the only ministerial job to have the word feed into the higher rate of problem gambling. Will “veterans” in its title, it is important to remember that Her Majesty’s Government commit to surveying the all Ministers have responsibility for veterans. One of gambling habits of serving personnel so that we can the challenges they face is access to information, which better provide for our military as they transition to is why we created the Veterans’ Gateway. Can my civilian life? noble friend simply reassure me that her department engages with that portal? Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): The right reverend Prelate raises a serious issue that people are well aware Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): I am happy to confirm of. I would like to offer a meeting with him just to get to my noble friend that the department engages with some more detail from him, and then I will of course the portal. We put veterans and their families in touch take that back to the department. with the organisations best placed to help them, and the portal, through the national provision tool, is an absolutely vital part of the service. Baroness Fookes (Con): My Lords, I will not disguise my anger and frustration at the recent refusal of the Government to restore war widows’ pensions to those Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP): few ladies who lost it on remarriage. Can my noble My Lords, I recognise the many challenges faced by friend use her considerable powers of persuasion to find the members of the Armed Forces in the transition to a way forward other than by using the name “pension”, civilian life, whether it be need for housing or professional which I understand frightens the life out of the Treasury? care because of physical or mental incapacity through Could the widows not receive some form of compensation, conflict. Can the Minister assure me that all former hardship payment or the like? members of the Armed Forces are equally provided for across the United Kingdom, including those in Northern Ireland? Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): To be asked not to frighten the Treasury is quite a challenge—I will think Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): I am pleased to be about that one for now. Of course, the Government able to respond to the noble Lord to say that the recognise the unique commitment that service families Armed Forces covenant legislation is specifically designed make to our country and remain sympathetic to the to cover equality of service. It covers health, education circumstances of those who remarried and cohabited and housing, and the MoD has worked with closely before 1 April. I understand my noble friend’s points, with the devolved authorities in implementing that. and I will do my best. Baroness D’Souza (CB): My Lords, the Government Lord Ramsbotham (CB) [V]: My Lords, can the have a duty of care to look after those who have Minister please tell the House whether the Department served and a moral responsibility to pick up the tab. for Work and Pensions has carried out any assessment That said, will the Minister say what combat-related of the usefulness of Armed Forces employment to trauma support is available to women veterans who civilian employers? are actively seeking employment?

Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): An important point Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): I would need to is that when people leave the Armed Forces, they have write to the noble Baroness about trauma support really good skills that are very attractive to employers because I will need to get the information from the in both the public and private sectors, and work is MoD. However, I can give comfort to her and to the done to make sure that all opportunities are made whole House: women do very well when it comes to available to those leaving the service. employment after their service. They have good specialist 1765 Armed Forces: Transition to Civilian Life[LORDS] BA and Ryanair: Customer Refunds 1766

[BARONESS STEDMAN-SCOTT] taken by the Competition and Markets Authority skills such as transport, logistics and medicine, and the against BA and Ryanair regarding refunds for support that the DWP gives takes account of individual customers. circumstances and is individually tailored. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con): My Lords, Dr Hugh for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con): My Milroy, the CEO of the exemplary military charity Lords, the investigation by the Competition and Markets Veterans Aid, tells me that the current resettlement Authority into British Airways and Ryanair is ongoing. system is out of touch with the cost of living today ItwouldbeinappropriatefortheGovernmenttocomment and that he has seen this cause genuine hardship for on an ongoing investigation by an independent regulator, people with otherwise good prospects. I was surprised but we have been clear that the rights of consumers to find that the individual resettlement training costs and the obligations of businesses remain unchanged. grant available to all leavers with six or more years’ It should not be unduly difficult for customers to service and all medical discharges is set at £534. Does receive a refund when they are entitled to it. my noble friend the Minister agree that it is time to modernise the system by providing access to an innovative Baroness Randerson (LD): One struggles to think of financial empowerment model, perhaps like the student another product where customers pay such a high loan system? price so far in advance of receiving a service. Yet some airlines have, as the Minister has indicated, avoided Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): I am happy to tell making refunds when they could not deliver that my noble friend that while the grant is set at just over service. This has left not only passengers out of pocket £500, the training that it can purchase can be worth but has had a disastrous impact on travel agents who thousands of pounds. The Career Transition Partnership often have to refund their customers without receiving contract-funded courses are prepaid by the MoD and the fare money back from the airlines. Have the it offers other courses as well. Other financial support Government investigated any of the proposals from schemes, such as the enhanced learning credits scheme, Which? that passengers who have paid in advance for can provide up to £3,000. Further financial support of their flights should have their payments held safely up to £175 per year can be made available through the in trust and disbursed to airlines at the time of the standard learning credit scheme and the publicly funded flight? Does the Minister agree that a resolution to further education/higher education scheme provides this problem is long overdue and that the actions of a service leavers with all sorts of support for up to 10 small number of airlines are damaging the industry as years to a value of up to £9,000. If we need to a whole? repackage that, I will be happy to take it back to the department. Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con): The Government are taking a keen interest in this issue, but it should be Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD): My Lords, the noted that refund issues between airlines and travel integrated review envisages cuts to the regular forces agents are a contractual matter between those two of around 10,000. What work has the DWP done, businesses. The Civil Aviation Authority does not have alongside the MoD, to assess the possible implications a role in enforcing such contracts. On the action we are for service personnel and their families who will be taking on behalf of consumers, the CAA has reviewed leaving the forces perhaps rather more unexpectedly airlines’ compliance on refunds. The authority did this than envisaged? last summer and it has since worked collaboratively with airlines to improve their performance. I am pleased Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): The services offered to say that most airlines are now paying refunds within by the DWP through the plan for jobs and other seven days. activities with the Department for Education on skills are wide-ranging, and I know that the Ministry of Lord Balfe (Con): My Lords, I declare an interest as Defence and the DWP will work in partnership to someone who is owed money by both British Airways provide the most relevant services to the people who and Ryanair. I ask the Minister whether this system the noble Baroness rightly says will need help. could be changed because there is a legal liability which is clearly not being followed. Indeed, these companies The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): My are using every trick in the book not to pay customers Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. back. Will the Minister at least agree that this will be We now come to the fourth Oral Question in the name borne in mind when they queue up for loans and money of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. from the Government? Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con): I cannot comment BA and Ryanair: Customer Refunds on my noble friend’s circumstances, but the regulations Question already set out that if a consumer’s flight or holiday has been cancelled by an operator, that customer is 12.39 pm entitled to a refund within a reasonable timescale. We Asked by Baroness Randerson are also asking businesses to make sure that they interact with their customers on a fair and responsible Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what discussions basis because that is important for the future of the they have had with representatives of the international travel industry. I hope that my noble friend will get his travel industry about the impact of the action being refunds, if they are due, as soon as possible. 1767 BA and Ryanair: Customer Refunds[15 JUNE 2021] BA and Ryanair: Customer Refunds 1768

Lord Berkeley (Lab): My Lords, this issue of refunds circumstances will change in different countries, at applies to holiday lets as well as airlines and other different times. The traffic light system in place works travel providers. Does the Minister agree that if members as well as it can, in the circumstances; it looks at case of the public book a service in good faith and the rates, positivity, genomic surveillance and the risk Government subsequently change the law so that using from variants of concern. I also make the noble Lord the service becomes illegal, surely the Government aware that lifting restrictions domestically does not should compensate those who are out of pocket—or is necessarily mean changes to international travel. it only for those who have shouted loudest? Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]: It was not clear from the Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con): I think we can all Minister’s response whether the Government were agree that the travel industry has been fundamentally supportive of the suggestion put forward by the noble changed by the Covid pandemic. There is no doubt Baroness, Lady Randerson, which came from Which?, that travelling now is very different from what it was a about payments for fares being held in a trust. Perhaps year ago. We are encouraging all consumers to be as we could have a direct response to that. On this whole flexible as possible. They must read the terms and issue of refunds, the rights of the consumer seem to be conditions because in certain circumstances, guidance protected somewhat tardily. I am not clear, but are the from the Government may change and a refund may Government satisfied with the speed at which consumer not be due. However, as I said previously, if something rights to refunded fares during lockdown were fully is cancelled, a refund should be given. addressed and, where applicable, enforced? Surely all are equal under the law and all are bound by the law, whether a financially strong airline not offering a Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con): My Lords, the refund or a financially stretched passenger in need of aviation sector has spent the past year trying to second- a refund. guess government policy, with route cancellations being announced at the drop of a hat causing mayhem, as outlined by my right honourable friend Theresa May Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con): As I have said last week. As a key architect of Regulation 261/2004 numerous times, consumers are getting their refunds on passenger rights, I would normally take a hard line, back and this is happening more quickly than it was but not today. Will my noble friend remind those in earlier in the pandemic, as policies and practices have BEIS and the DfT that force majeure includes a pandemic, been put in place at the behest of the CAA and the and that perhaps the Competition and Markets Authority work that it has done with UK airlines. I did not might better focus its attention on reminding Ministers respond to the question raised by the noble Baroness, and civil servants of their responsibilities across Lady Randerson, because we are considering it among departments before resorting to possible legal action? many other suggestions about how to get our international travel industry back on its feet. The Government also have ongoing work on airline insolvency following the Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con): As noble Lords Thomas Cook insolvency in the year before last. will know, the Government are not taking this legal action themselves. The CMA is a non-ministerial Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): I welcome department. It believes it has found some evidence the action taken by the CAA. I completely understand that businesses are failing to comply with the law and the difficulties set out by the noble Baroness, Lady it is taking reasonable steps to take appropriate Randerson, and others; airlines and airports are suffering enforcement action. It could be that this does not go at the moment. But surely it is in the interests of to court and that the CMA reaches an appropriate airlines to ensure that they give passengers the best agreement with British Airways and Ryanair, if there care and attention that they can. Like my noble friend has been any wrongdoing. But I agree with my noble Lord Balfe, I am due a voucher from Ryanair. Could friend that we have to do everything that we can to get the Minister address the issue of vouchers, which seem the travel industry back on its feet. That is our focus: to disappear into the ether? Is there not a policy to we want British consumers to be able to travel once remind passengers that they have a voucher and that it again and with certainty. has to be used before its expiry date?

Lord Razzall (LD): My Lords, following the Minister’s Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con): The same policy last response, while this is important, clearly it is only applies to vouchers as to cash payments if a flight is the tip of the iceberg for the aviation industry and its cancelled, but of course I cannot go into the detail of customers, as she acknowledges. Does she accept that my noble friend’s circumstances. It is worth pointing a lengthy continuation of the green/amber/red system out that, on 17 May, the Government published the will have a devastating impact on the industry and its Passenger COVID-19 Charter. It sets out what customers customers? Will she confirm that, when restrictions are can expect, and what their rights and responsibilities fully lifted, barriers to flights will be removed, thereby are, when booking and travelling internationally. On removing this issue? Will she also confirm that it is not the other side, we set out the reasonable expectations the Government’s policy, as some fear, to stop people on the industry to be flexible. We did this to give both travelling abroad, so as to boost the UK economy? customers and the industry a firm footing, as we try to reopen international travel. Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con): I point out to the noble Lord that the Government are taking a cautious The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): My approach to international travel. We realise that Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. 1769 Arrangement of Business [LORDS] Ethiopia 1770

Arrangement of Business in Tigray. We are now more than seven months into Announcement the conflict in Tigray, and there is no sight of an end. It has taken a terrible toll on the people of Tigray. 12.49 pm More than 350,000 people are assessed to be in famine-like conditions in total—more than anywhere else in the Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con): My Lords, I would like world—and, sadly, this is expected to rise. A region-wide to make a short statement about a change to our famine in Tigray is now likely if conflict intensifies business tomorrow. Following the Prime Minister’s and impediments to the delivery of humanitarian aid announcement that there is to be a four-week pause at continue. This crisis has been caused by insecurity, an step 3 of the Covid road map, new health protection ongoing lack of humanitarian access and the deliberate regulations have been made and laid before Parliament destruction of agricultural equipment and medical today. To give the House the opportunity to debate facilities. It is a manmade crisis. these new regulations before they come into force, and Officials from our embassy in Addis Ababa have following discussions through the usual channels, we visited Tigray five times to assess the situation and will take that debate as our last business tomorrow, guide our humanitarian response. The UK’s special after the Second Reading of the Animal Welfare envoy for famine prevention and humanitarian affairs, (Sentience) Bill. A speakers’ list is open now and noble Nick Dyer, visited Tigray last month. Our ambassador Lords will have until 6 pm this evening to add their is due to visit this week. During these visits, we have names.Wewill also arrange for a copy of this information heard many harrowing reports of atrocities committed to be sent to Peers by email. by all parties to the conflict. This includes extrajudicial killings,and widespread sexual and gender-based violence. Age of Criminal Responsibility Bill [HL] It is simply unacceptable, it must stop and the perpetrators First Reading must be held to account. The head of the UN Office for the Coordination of 12.50 pm Humanitarian Affairs, Mark Lowcock, has said the A Bill to raise the age of criminal responsibility. humanitarian disaster is in part due to the presence of the Eritrean troops in Tigray. He says they are using The Bill was introduced by Lord Dholakia, read a first hunger as a weapon of war, and we therefore need to time and ordered to be printed. see the immediate withdrawal of Eritrean forces from Tigray and Ethiopian soil now. The Government of Modern Slavery (Amendment) Bill [HL] Ethiopia have said this will happen, but it has not yet First Reading happened. I am particularly shocked about reports that Eritreans are dressing up in Ethiopian uniforms 12.51 pm and committing atrocities. A Bill to prohibit the falsification of slavery and human The concern of the G7 nations about the situation trafficking statements; to establish minimum standards was set out in yesterday’s communiqué, following the of transparency in supply chains in relation to modern leaders’ summit this weekend. The G7 leaders called slavery and human trafficking; to prohibit companies for an immediate cessation of hostilities and unimpeded using supply chains which fail to demonstrate minimum humanitarian access to the area. I am pleased that all standards of transparency; and for connected purposes. G7 nations in the EU, along with a growing number of other nations, including Spain, Australia, New Zealand, The Bill was introduced by Lord Alton of Liverpool, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Belgium and Poland, have read a first time and ordered to be printed. joined the UK’s call for an immediate humanitarian Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, I declare a ceasefire. His Holiness the Pope expressed his concerns non-pecuniary interest as a trustee of the charity Arise and also called for an end to fighting this weekend. It Foundation, which combats modern-day slavery and is vital that that happens to allow life-saving aid to human trafficking. reach the hundreds of thousands in need. The international community response to this crisis 12.52 pm needs to be scaled up urgently. That will involve Sitting suspended. co-ordination to ensure aid gets in.” Ethiopia 1.01 pm Commons Urgent Question Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, the new The following Answer to an Urgent Question was given data from the World Food Programme has shown that in the House of Commons on Monday 14 June. a total of 350,000 people are suffering from catastrophic “I congratulate my honourable friend on securing levels of hunger in Tigray.WFP is mounting emergency this Urgent Question, and I thank him for his work food assistance, but some areas are difficult to reach. not only on Ethiopia but on Zambia and Angola, What steps are the Government taking to support where he serves as a trade envoy, and for the excellent humanitarian access? On the peace process itself, last work he does on the Business Council for Africa. week the US representative to the UN called for the The Government are deeply concerned about the Security Council to meet publicly to discuss the crisis. situation in Ethiopia. Our greatest concern is the What steps is the UK taking within the Security rapidly growing human rights and humanitarian crisis Council to help bring the conflict to an end? 1771 Ethiopia [15 JUNE 2021] Ethiopia 1772

The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and aid support is for the purposes intended. I believe it Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con): has had an impact on the ground, as 1.2 million My Lords, first I welcome my noble friend Lord Gardiner children have gained a quality education. Of course of Kimble, the Senior Deputy Speaker, to the Woolsack. we continue to have a positive impact; we support aid It is testimony to his punctuality that today we saw him programmes in-country but, equally,the political situation arrive a tad early.It is great to see him on the Woolsack—it is dire and we need to reassess what level of support is certainly the first occasion on which I have done we can give over the longer term to ensure opportunities so—and we all wish him well. for the people of Ethiopia. I will come on to the substance of the question from the noble Lord, Lord Collins. On the second Lord St John of Bletso (CB) [V]: My Lords, this is point he raised, about the UN Security Council, we clearly a manmade crisis that can be solved only by have certainly been among a few countries calling for political negotiation and compromise, rather than a an open debate. I am sure that he acknowledges that military solution. What is the African Union doing to we made a specific statement on this during our presidency. foster a rapprochement between the TPLF and the We have made sure that we keep tabling the issue under Ethiopian Federal Government? any other business, to keep the focus of the Security Council. On his earlier question, we are working with Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, we UN agencies on the ground, including supporting are working with all key partners, including key players additional funding to ensure that the likes of OCHA in Africa. The Minister for Africa has discussed the have access. We are also working with key organisations situation in Tigray with the AU’s peace and security such as UNICEF on the ground. commissioner. The Foreign Secretary has also discussed the situation with President Kenyatta of Kenya and Lord Chidgey (LD): My Lords, Ethiopia has made PM Hamdok of Sudan, and will continue to work huge strides as a developing nation, in which relationships with African partners as well as others to bring about with the UK have played a significant part. Today I a resolution of this conflict peacefully. am wearing the tie presented to me when at the African Union in Addis Ababa by the chairperson of the African The Lord Bishop of St Albans [V]: I wonder if the Union Commission, Dr Dlamini-Zuma. We are all Minister would comment on whether Her Majesty’s shocked to see the images of starving people, and Government have been able to validate allegations reports of civilians being murdered or displaced— that white phosphorus was used against civilians in reminiscent of the appalling war and famine in the Tigray, despite the categorical denial of the Ethiopian 1980s. We have donated £16.7 million in response to Government. this crisis, but how does this relate to the huge cuts in UK aid? Will Ethiopia’s elections next week offer a Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): The right reverend solution? They will not be held in Tigray, the EU has Prelate raises an important point. We are awaiting, withdrawn its observation mission, and the team of and certainly support, the full investigation. Various American senators has called for elections to be postponed. UN agencies, including OCHA and the UNHCR, are What is the Government’s view? working to establish the facts of that very incident.

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): On the noble Baroness Goudie (Lab) [V]: My Lords, we know the Lord’s first question about support from the UK, we effect that malnutrition has on babies and children—from have actually given £47.7 million since the start of the a baby’s gestation right through to the child turning crisis. My honourable friend the Minister for Africa three. It affects their lungs and it affects their life for announced an additional £16.7 million yesterday. On the future, and it will affect the livelihood of that the political crisis, the noble Lord is right of course—there country. What are we doing to ensure that the food on is an election due. The challenge remains that many the ground is the correct food, particularly for babies, parties from within the region impacted are not toddlers and pregnant mothers? participating. We continue to use all diplomatic levers to ensure access for full-party participation during the Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): Our UK aid is elections. I think there will be little movement on the focused on that very issue, among various priorities, political settlement until the election has been held. and 5.6 million children under five, women and girls continue to be reached through nutrition-related Lord Robathan (Con): My Lords, I last visited the interventions on the ground in-country. beautiful country of Ethiopia about 18 months ago, just before the pandemic. Now we find a third of a Lord Balfe (Con): My Lords, I see from the UN million people at risk of famine. Billions have been report that the special rapporteur on human rights in given in aid by the UK taxpayer, including some Eritrea has been unable to get into the country. What money via the Conflict, Stability and Security Fund. are the Government doing to try to get things sorted How much influence has our huge aid programme had out on the ground? Seventy-five years of independence in encouraging peace and stability in the region? Did in Ethiopia seems to have left just a tragic mess, and our aid allow any money from the Ethiopian Government we appear to be on the point of a failed country and to be diverted into armaments from health and education? continent. What do HMG think they can do to help?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, on Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, I will my noble friend’s second point, of course there are not agree with my noble friend on the fact that it is a stringent measures in place to ensure that development failed continent. I think there are many successes 1773 Ethiopia [LORDS] Covid-19 Update 1774

[LORD AHMAD OF WIMBLEDON] LordAhmadof Wimbledon(Con):MyLords,Iapologise across Africa but, as I alluded to earlier, we are working as I did not catch the whole of my noble friend’s with key partners and through UN agencies both on question because of the connection, but I picked up the ground and through political engagement to ensure themaingist.AsthePrimeMinister’sspecialrepresentative that we bring about a peaceful resolution of this on PSVI—preventing sexual violence in conflict—I conflict. can assure her that we have prioritised this.On identifying personnel from our team, we are currently looking to Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, I declare formally deploy directly on the ground in the coming an interest as co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary weeks.Wehavebeenworkingwithagenciesontheground, Group on Eritrea, which will be addressed this afternoon including UNICEF, Red Crescent and the Ethiopian by the United Nations special rapporteur on Eritrea Red Cross Society. Thus far, although the situation is and will focus on Tigray. How do the Government dire, we are currently supporting 545 survivors— intend to respond to his findings of appalling human 542 women and 3 men— directly with case management rights violations by Eritrean militias in Tigray? Did services. The proportion of people impacted internally the Minister discuss it when he met the Secretary-General and through allegations of sexual violence is far greater, of the United Nations last week? Are we working with so there is further work to do and this is a key priority Ireland, which is proposing to raise this in the Security for me as the Prime Minister’s special representative. Council this week? Are we considering joining Belgium, which is using universal jurisdiction to bring prosecutions The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) for war crimes and crimes against humanity? (Non-Afl): My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked. Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, yes, I did discuss this with the UN Secretary-General António 1.12 pm Guterres last week when I met him. We are awaiting a full report of that joint investigation by the UN Office Covid-19 Update of the High Commissioner for Human Rights and the Statement Ethiopian Human Rights Commission, which is currently under way. We will continue to work with key partners The following Statement was made in the House of on the UN Security Council, including Ireland, to find Commons on Monday 14 June. further resolutions and we continue to lobby for a full “Mr Speaker, these past six months, we have all debate at the UNSC. been involved in a race between the vaccine and the virus. Our vaccination programme has been delivered Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab): My Lords, looking at incredible pace: we have delivered 71 million doses longer term, in the view of the Government, which of into 41 million arms; and over 93% of people aged the outside bodies is best placed to play a peacebuilding 40 and over have now received at least one dose. role—the UN or the EU? Does the Minister agree that Because of this pace, we are able to open up vaccinations the causes of instability in conflict must be tackled to those aged 23 and 24 tomorrow. and that these include the insupportable population explosion from 18 million in 1950 to about 110 million It is this protection that has allowed us to take the now, and projected by the UN to be 190 million by first three steps of our road map, meaning that right 2050 and 250 million by the end of the century? Does now we have one of the most open economies and our aid include family planning? societies in Europe. We have been able to remove the most burdensome of the restrictions and restore so Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, I many of the freedoms that we hold dear. At every agree with the noble Lord that the issue of population stage, we have looked at the data, set against the four growth must be addressed, not just in the region we tests that the Prime Minister set out to this House in are currently talking about but across the world. Webelieve February.The fourth of those tests is that our assessment that prioritising girls’ education for 12 years is part of the risk is not fundamentally changed by new variants and parcel of finding that long-term resolution. We are of concern. working with all agencies to find a resolution and the The delta variant now accounts for over 90% of African Union, as well as the UN, has an important cases across the country. We know that the delta role to play. variant spreads more easily and there is evidence that the risk of hospitalisation is higher than for the previously Baroness Helic (Con) [V]:My Lords, yesterday in dominant alpha variant. Case numbers are rising, up the other place the Minister for Africa stated: 64% on last week in England, but the whole purpose “a high level of sexual violence is being directed at children”—[Official of vaccination is to break the link between cases and Report, Commons, 14/6/21; col. 41.] hospitalisations and deaths. That link is clearly weaker in Tigray. This comes on top of the report about than it once was. However, over the past week, we have barbaric gender-based violence unleashed against the seen hospitalisations start to rise; up by 50%. Thankfully, Tigrayan population as a whole. Can my noble friend the number of deaths has not risen and remains very low. tell the House, eight months later, how many of the Sadly, before the vaccine, we saw that a rise in UK team of experts set up to collect evidence of sexual hospitalisations inevitably led to a rise in deaths a violence, in precisely these kinds of situations, have couple of weeks later. The vaccine in changing that, been deployed to Ethiopia or to neighbouring countries but it is simply too early to know how effectively the to ensure that evidence is collected and perpetrators link to deaths has been broken. We do know that, after are eventually brought to account? a single dose of the vaccine, the effectiveness is lower 1775 Covid-19 Update [15 JUNE 2021] Covid-19 Update 1776 against the delta variant, at around 33% reduction in this relaxation. We will be running another phase of symptomatic disease. However,the good news, confirmed our pilots for large events at higher capacities, including with new data published today, is that two doses of the some at full capacity, like the Wimbledon finals. We are vaccine are just as effective against hospital admission easing rules in care homes, including removing the with the delta variant compared with the alpha variant. requirement for residents to isolate for 14 days after In fact, once you have had two doses, the vaccines may visits out, and we are allowing out-of-school settings be even slightly more effective against hospitalisation to organise residential visits in bubbles of up to 30 children, if you have caught the new delta variant. This gives me in line with the current position for schools. I thank my confidence that, while the protection comes more from honourable friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale the second dose, and so takes longer to reach, the West (Sir Graham Brady) for his work in this area. protection we will get after that second jab is highly Even though we have not been able to take the full effective—and, if anything, slightly better—against step as we wanted, I know that these cautious changes the delta variant. So, for the purpose of the restrictions, will mean a lot to many people and move us a little bit while it will take us a little longer to build the full closer to normal life. As we do this, we will keep giving protection we need through the vaccine, all the science people the support they need. We are extending our is telling us that we will get there. Of course, all this asymptomatic testing offer until the end of July. We says that it is so important that everyone gets both doses have put in place one of the most extensive financial when the call comes. Even today, I have had messages support packages in the world, and we will continue to from people who have had their jab, and I am so deliver enhanced support for the worst-affected areas. grateful to each and every person for making our We have seen how this approach can work—for country safer. At every stage of the road map, we have example, in Bolton. Cases in Bolton have fallen by taken the time to check it is safe to take the next step. almost a third over the past three weeks. Even as Our task is to make sure the vaccine can get ahead in hospitalisations have risen across the north-west, in the race between the vaccine and the virus. Bolton, they have fallen by more than half. Last week, I know that so many people have been working so we introduced enhanced support in Greater Manchester hard, making sacrifices, being cautious and careful, and Lancashire, and I can now tell the House that we and doing their bit to help this country down the road are extending these extra measures—surge testing, map. I know that people have been planning and cautious guidance and extra resources for vaccination—to arranging important moments and that businesses Birmingham, Blackpool, Cheshire, including Warrington, have been gearing up to reopen. So it is with a heavy and the Liverpool city region. We know from experience heart, and faced with this reality, that we have made that this approach can work, but we need everyone to the difficult decision not to move ahead with step 4 play their part, so I urge everyone in these areas to get next week. Instead, we will pause for up to four weeks tested and to come forward for the support that is on until 19 July, with a review of the data after two weeks. offer. When you get the call, get the jab and help keep During this crucial time, we will be drawing on everything us on the road to recovery. we know works when fighting this virus and will use Finally, none of this would be possible without our the extra time to deliver the extra protection we need. vaccine programme. Without the vaccine, faced with Despite the incredible uptake we have seen in this these rising cases and hospitalisations, the clinical country, there are still people we need to protect: recommendation would have been to go back towards 1.3 million people who are over 50 and 4.5 million lockdown. The Vaccine Taskforce is critical to the over-40s have had a first jab but not yet a second. The work to deliver supplies, the work on booster jabs and pause will save thousands of lives by allowing us to get ensuring we are protected for the future. Dame Kate the majority of these second jabs done before restrictions Bingham did a formidable job in melding the best are eased further. We are today reducing the time from possible team, and I would like to congratulate her first to second jab for all people aged 40 and over from and everyone else who was recognised in Her Majesty’s 12 weeks to eight weeks to accelerate the programme. birthday honours this weekend. I am delighted to be If, like me, you are in your 40s and you have a second able to tell the House that Sir Richard Sykes, one of jab booked 12 weeks after your first, the NHS will be Britain’s most acknowledged biochemists and industry in touch to bring it forward, or you can rebook on the leaders, has agreed to take up the position of chair of national booking service. Our aim is that around two the VTF. Sir Richard brings to bear experience from thirds of all adults will have had both doses by 19 July. leadership positions in both the public and the private I can tell the House that we have been able to deliver sectors, and I am delighted to have him on board to the vaccine programme faster than planned, so we can lead the team in the next stage of this mission. bring forward the moment when we will have offered This race between the vaccines and the virus is not every adult a first dose of the vaccine to 19 July, too. over yet. These difficult restrictions challenge our lives In this race between the vaccine and the virus, we are in so many ways, but they play a vital role in holding giving the vaccine all the support we can. the virus back and protecting people while we get We have always said that we will ease restrictions as these jabs done. So let us all play our part to keep us soon as we are able safely to do so. Even though we safe from this dreadful disease. I commend this Statement cannot take step 4 on Monday, I am pleased that we to the House.” are able carefully to ease restrictions in some areas. We are removing the 30-person gathering limit for 1.12 pm weddings,receptionsandcommemorativeevents—subject, Baroness Thornton (Lab): I thank the Minister for of course, to social distancing guidelines. I am very this Statement. These Benches agree with Mr Speaker; grateful for the work of the weddings task force on in the statement he made prior to the Secretary of 1777 Covid-19 Update [LORDS] Covid-19 Update 1778

[BARONESS THORNTON] isolation is key to breaking transmission yet, 16 months State’sStatement last night, he expressed a deep frustration on, people are still not paid adequate financial on behalf of all parliamentarians about the Government’s compensation to isolate themselves. When asked about conduct.Theannouncementyesterdaywasbothpredictable this at the Select Committee last week, the Secretary and, sadly, predicted. I sigh, because the Prime Minister of State claimed that people would game the system. is now referring to 19 July as “terminus” day instead of Does the Minister believe that this is true? After all the freedom day, which has probably brought eye-rolls sacrifices and rule-following of the public, does the everywhere. When will the Prime Minister learn that Minister have the same low opinion of our fellow citizens caution and the use of data means also being cautious as his boss? about how you express these matters? Yesterday, the Prime Minister and the Secretary of The Minister will know that on these Benches we State supported extending restrictions by pointing to support the Government’s decision to delay the move plans to go further on vaccination. But even after to the next stage of the road map, but do so with a extending the doses as outlined in the Statement, large deep sense of anger, if not despair, that this should be proportions of the population will still be left unprotected necessary. Since the delta variant of coronavirus, first —having had one dose or none—and exposed to a variant discovered in India, was detected in the UK in April, that, if left unchecked, will accelerate and double every cases have surged across the country, with the variant week. That would mean more hospitalisations, more now making up 96% of new infections.Experts confirmed long Covid, more disruption to schools and more last week that the variant is 60% more transmissible opportunities for variants to emerge. What will happen than the alpha variant, first discovered in Kent in under these circumstances? Will the Prime Minister 2020. Scientists at the Wellcome Sanger Institute have still lift the restrictions? used genomic sequencing to produce maps which show My reading of this announcement and the terms in how rapidly the delta variant has taken over in England, which is it couched is that the science points to us and I commend them to noble Lords. They are alarming being in a very dangerous position. We could lose the in that they show the rapid spread to almost the whole battle that is going on between the vaccine and the country by the end of last week. It is doubling week by virus. Will there be vaccine surges to counter this in week—still with small numbers now,but that will change areas where the virus is most prevalent? What is the if this doubling continues. plan to bring down infections and extend vaccination There were warnings of a new variant in India on rates in hotspot areas? We have learned that in some 25 March. It is reported that Ministers first learned places—Leicester,Chorley,Tameside, Salford and Wigan that the delta variant was in the UK on 1 April. I must —the dose numbers have gone down. Has vaccination ask the Minister: is that true? The Government red-listed surging been abandoned in those hotspot areas? Will Pakistan and Bangladesh on 9 April, but did not red- the Government bring forward accelerated second list India until 23 April, by which point 20,000 people doses, and how are they working further to overcome had arrived from India. As my right honourable friend vaccine hesitancy? Jon Ashworth said yesterday in the Commons, The Chief Medical Officer said last night that we “Our borders were as secure as a sieve, and all because the would be lifting restrictions were it not for the delta Prime Minister wanted a photo call with Prime Minister Modi.”— variant. The Prime Minister should have moved at [Official Report, Commons, 14/6/21; col. 77.] lightning speed to prevent the delta variant reaching On 20 April I said to the Minister: our shores.Instead he dithered, and todayhe is responsible. “With regard to protecting our borders, this week Hong Kong identified 47 Covid cases on a single flight from Delhi.” We were closing our borders on 23 April, and I asked Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]: My Lords, we on these him: Benches echo the support of the noble Baroness, Lady “there will be hundreds of people arriving on flights from India. Thornton,fortheCommonsSpeaker’sstatementyesterday Is this not very risky?”—[Official Report, 20/4/21; col. 1769.] on the Government’s continued abuse of Parliament. I now return to that question. How many people We repeatedly warned the Government that sending arrived from India carrying the virus during the period out mixed messages about lifting restrictions on 21 June from when the Government were aware of the variant would cause problems. Even in March, the Prime at the beginning of April to 23 April, when India Minister made it evident that he wanted us out of joined Pakistan and Bangladesh? restrictions “irreversibly”—his word—by next Monday. It is unforgiveable that Ministers have consistently What is worse is that we are now in a fourth Covid promised to take control of our borders and conspicuously wave because of his desire to visit President Modi in failed to do so, particularly at the very moment when India in mid-April. The resultant dangerous dithering it mattered most: when we were succeeding in the about putting India on the red list contrasted sharply vaccination rollout and the gradual loosening up. The with the TV news. Every evening, we saw that the then Prime Minister not only opened the back door to this delta variant was scything through India. Even then, variant; he failed to take measures to suppress it when Indian epidemiologists were talking about a much he could. faster transmission. Weon these Benches have repeatedly There has been growing prevalence of this variant asked why India was not added to the red list on among school-age children, yet mandatory mask-wearing 2 April. has been abandoned in secondary schools. I have At yesterday’s press conference we were warned raised this with the Minister at least once before. He that the current delta variant wave will likely peak in has to explain why this has happened, despite being mid-July, as cases, hospital admissions and patients repeatedly asked in both Houses. We also know that needing ICU increase steadily. Even if vaccines mean 1779 Covid-19 Update [15 JUNE 2021] Covid-19 Update 1780 that hospitals are not being overwhelmed, there is an plea that all Ministers use this as a reference point. Far increase. The UK now faces continuing restrictions too many only ever use the number of people having entirely because of the Prime Minister’s delay. had the first dose. With the delta variant, it is even The academic paper Estimating the Failure Risk of clearer now that two doses are essential. Hotel-based Quarantine for Preventing COVID-19 Why on earth did the Prime Minister say yesterday Outbreaks in Australia and New Zealand, published in that 19 July is definitely the terminal day for restrictions? February this year, calculated the risks and likely We all hope that he is right, but if he and Ministers are seeding of variants in the light of infection control led by data, how can he say that? and surveillance used locally.It now provides an essential Finally, the Statement refers to surge testing in baseline to assess seeding of cases coming from abroad. areas where the variant is also surging, but maps show Devan Sinha of Oxford University and other UK such a steady rise in cases across the country. Can the scientists have used this to look at the seeding of the Minister confirm that there are enough test, trace and delta variant in the UK. He noted that 96% of the isolate staff to manage effectively this fourth wave of seeding of the delta variant occurred after 2 April—that Covid? is, after Pakistan and Bangladesh were added to the red list but India was not. He estimates that putting TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department India on the red list on 2 April would have delayed the of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con): My current wave by a further four to seven weeks. That Lords, I am enormously grateful to the noble Baronesses, four to seven weeks would have meant that all over-40s Lady Brinton and Lady Thornton, for such thoughtful had had access to a second dose and, at seven weeks, and searching questions. most over-30s. He said that the wave would have been Noble Lords: Oh! “much smaller and mostly neutered”. What have the Government learned from this delay? Lord Bethell (Con): As ever, I am also grateful to Why did it take so long for the delta variant to be my own Benches for their support in these difficult times. moved from a variant of interest to a variant of This Statement from the House of Commons has concern? Despite MPs, Peers and scientists all asking been reflected on very thoughtfully and accurately, as in early April, Matt Hancock told the Commons that shown by some of the questions. I remind noble Lords it would be listed as a variant of concern on 20 April. that the rollout of the vaccine is happening at pace, In fact, it was not listed until 7 May. Even worse, surge but it deserves to have a breath and the space to be testing did not start until May either. If it was serious seen through, all the way, before we make categoric enough for India to be added to the red list by 23 May, steps towards opening up. I emphasise in reply to these why was it made a variant of concern only on 7 May? questions that the supply of the vaccine has stepped Was the delay with PHE or with Ministers? up. Pfizer’s forecasted supply in June will be 30% more The necessary continuation of restrictions at the than in May; in July, it will be 80% more than in June; current level means that a number of support schemes and we hope to have that sustained level in August. By are now out of kilter with the restriction levels. These the week commencing 19 July, we will have offered all include lifting the embargo on evictions, the reduction adults a first dose, as well as a second dose to those in furlough support while people are still being asked aged over 40 who have had their first dose by mid-May. to work from home if possible, and other business This rollout will be absolutely transformative. It support mechanisms. Please can the Minister say whether will mean that we overtake an important inflection they will be extended until we know that we are lifting point: the numbers of those who have had their second restrictions completely? When, oh when, will any of dose, and who are therefore, as statistics show more these Statements or communications make it clear to and more clearly,highly resistant to this virus,and certainly the clinically extremely vulnerable and their families to severe disease and death. This variant is undoubtedly and friends what they are expected to do? much more transmissible, by between 50% and 80%. It The Statement lists the areas where restrictions are is therefore completely proportionate and reasonable to be lifted, many of which will be welcome, especially that we take this moment to delay step 4 and give the the 30-person limit on attending weddings, receptions vaccine rollout the space that it needs. and commemorative events, and out-of-school residential I will build on the point from the noble Baroness, visits in bubbles of up to 30. But I ask again about Lady Thornton, about the work done by the Sanger mask wearing in schools, given the continuing increase Institute on genomic sequencing. It is only because of in delta variant cases among children. Will there be enormousinvestment,andtheskillsandexpertiseof those specific guidance for these events, including lateral in genomic sequencing in the UK, that we understand flow testing before and after, so that any outbreaks at as much as we do about the variant. In her comments a wedding could be tracked and managed? What level on India, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, spoke of new Covid cases per day would change the pilots on about the process of analysing VOIs and VOCs. She is large events with higher capacities, especially the ones entirely right to allude to the fact that this is an extremely planned at full capacity? complicated matter.This analysis is down to the scientific It is good to see the removal of enforced quarantine judgment of those who have a copy of the variant. It for care home residents after trips out of homes. took a very long time to get a physical copy of the variant I never did understand that one, given that staff and from India, or even to have a digital sequence of it. visitors did not have to self-isolate. That is why these things can take some time. It was good to hear the emphasis in the statement This demonstrates why we need to tidy up and invest from Professor Whitty and Sir Patrick Valance on the in international systems for surveillance. An enormous importance of the second dose. I repeat my regular amount of energy went into the G7, and I can report 1781 Covid-19 Update [LORDS] Covid-19 Update 1782

[LORD BETHELL] 1.32 pm to noble Lords that, during the health track, we made Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): My Lords, what is great progress in the pandemic preparedness work the point of this Statement? It was briefed to the stream in setting up an international scheme for exactly newspapers over the weekend and the contents were this kind of surveillance. It is imperative that we know given to members of the press for scrutiny. So Laura what is happening in communities all the way around Kuenssberg has done the job and there seems to be the world, because we are all touched by the mutations little for us to do—which may account for the grumpiness of this virus, wherever they happen. We continue to I see around the Chamber. Has my noble friend seen invest in the national variant assessment platform, the excellent report of the Constitution Committee of which is our offer to the world to genomically sequence this House published on 10 June, entitled COVID-19 any variant sent to the Sanger, so that we can share and the Use and Scrutiny of Emergency Powers? It is that data with countries around the world. damning of the Government’suse of secondary legislation We have also invested enormously in the control of without proper consultation—of which today we have our borders. Through both its red list and its amber yet another example. Will the Government mend their list, the managed quarantine service has done an ways and accept the recommendations in this excellent enormous amount to stop the transmission of new report? variants into this country. I pay a huge amount of tribute to Border Force and those in MQS, who have Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, I absolutely pay done a terrific job of bringing in this completely new tribute to the Constitution Committee. It was generous infrastructure and this service that has done a huge enough to have me appear in front of it, and I gave several amount to keep out variants—including the Manaus hours of evidence. I am glad to see that my noble variant, the South Africa variant and others—through friend read the report; I hope he enjoyed my evidence the red-listing process. in it as well. In that evidence I made it absolutely crystal The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked about clear that the Government work with the laws at our school-age children and mask wearing. It is important disposal; that is what we have to hand. There may be a that we keep a balance. Even though the infection rate time when Parliament chooses to review those laws. is creeping up among school-age children, we need to Now is not the time, but when it is we will do it. protect the life they have in schools. In areas of enhanced response, the wearing of masks is now a recommended Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]: My Lords, is option for those who seek to take it up. That is a the Minister aware that many people would like to proportionate response in areas of rising infection. know whether, having had two vaccinations, they have But across the estate, we think it is proportionate to antibodies? Is this possible? Also, there has been a step away from that at the moment. shortage of the Pfizer vaccine. How can this be increased On isolation payments, I can share with the noble worldwide? Baroness that we are putting £2 million of funding Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, I agree with the into an agreed pilot across the Greater Manchester noble Baroness that many are curious about whether area, testing ways to encourage people to comply with they have antibodies, but I warn her that the presence self-isolation rules. The pilot will include support and of antibodies does not necessarily correlate with immunity. engagement teams who will work with households Some people have strong immunity and no antibodies, within 24 hours of a positive test. The pilot is expected and some have antibodies but not immunity. This is to reach 13,000 people over 12 weeks, and I am hopeful one of the mysteries of the body’s response to the that it will guide the way forward in this area. disease and one of the reasons why it has been such a The vaccination surge is absolutely working. We saw confounding disease to fight. But if anyone does want a dramatic change in the vaccination uptake among an antibody test, they should ask their GP and it can the community in Bolton in particular. That is one be arranged. area of Britain where the infection rate is coming down, which demonstrates the effectiveness of both Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab) [V]: My Lords, the vaccination surge and the testing surge. We are very bluntly, we are facing this unpalatable Statement now focused very much on accelerating second doses, today because of the Prime Minister’s inability to take particularly for over-40s. Millions of over-40s have decisions. The Government learned of the arrival of had their first dose; some have an appointment for the Indian variant as early as 25 March, yet took no their second dose and some do not. It is very much the action for 30 days, allowing 20,000 people to enter the focus of our efforts to ensure that we get those people UK. The result is that they put the public’s health at over the line and finish the job, to protect them and risk. As a consequence, we now face a further four weeks the ones they love. of restrictions, with accompanying hardships. Have the This is an important development in our steps Government learned their lesson? programme. It is frustrating, but there is an enormous amount to be optimistic about and it is in that spirit Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, I am not sure whether that we have made this decision. I accept the characterisation presented by the noble Lord. We have worked incredibly hard to bring in a The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) managed quarantine system that is a novel, new (Non-Afl): We now come to the 30 minutes allocated introduction into the UK. We have done extremely for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and well in fighting off many of the variants that have answers be brief so that I can call the maximum number come to our shores, including the Manaus variant, the of speakers. South African variant and others. We have strong 1783 Covid-19 Update [15 JUNE 2021] Covid-19 Update 1784 links with Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, which and those who have made their case have been heard means there is a lot of traffic between our countries. I loud and clear—but we have to fight this virus and prevent am not sure whether it would ever have been possible people getting sick. to prevent this variant making landfall in the UK at I do not accept the right reverend Prelate’s view that some point. But we have done an enormous amount in discipline has broken down. Quite the opposite: I am the UK to delay and prevent the arrival of these astounded by the British public and their adherence to variants, and for that I am enormously grateful to those voluntary guidelines and arrangements. I pay tribute involved. to the British public, and I do not think that the right reverend Prelate does any favours when he suggests that Lord Scriven (LD): My Lords, following the data is discipline has broken down. the Government’s mantra. Using the Government’s Lastly, I really do not accept the concept of an own test and trace data, for the two weeks prior to acceptable death rate. That is not how we play the Bangladesh going on the red list it had a positivity rate health system in this country. We are here to save lives; of 3.7%; India’s was 5.1%. Of all variants entering the that is our priority. There is a balance between the UK, including the delta variant, more than 50% of economy, freedom and lives, but as a Health Minister cases came from India and fewer than 5% from my starting point is to save lives. Bangladesh. So if the Government were following the data on 2 April, why was Bangladesh put on the red Baroness Sugg (Con): My Lords, it is great to see list and not India? the data on the efficacy of vaccines against the delta variant, but we know that that might not always be the Lord Bethell (Con): The noble Lord is enjoying the case in the future. The announcement from the Prime benefit of hindsight very much indeed; we can all use Minister that we will share 100 million of our excess the retrospectoscope. The data he refers to was not vaccines is a welcome first step, but the G7 failed to available to us at the time. We did not know that the achieve its 1 billion target, let alone the 11 billion that variant now known as India 2 was a variant of concern. the WHO says is needed. Does my noble friend the We did not know that it was going to be the most Minister agree that variants present one of the greatest transmissible one. There were three variants in India; threats to the unlockdown here in the UK and that the we did not know at that point which of them would pandemic is not over here unless it is over everywhere? present the most problems. It is extremely easy to sit What are the next steps to ensure that low-income here, look back and say that one person should have countries are vaccinated as soon as possible? Given done this and another should have done that. I ask the the success of our vaccine programme, will the UK noble Lord to try to sit in the seat of those who made take a leadership role in this, as we continue our G7 the decisions at the time. presidency?

The Lord Bishop of Leeds: My Lords, regardless of Lord Bethell (Con): Yes, I entirely agree with my matters of hindsight, does the Minister agree that noble friend on this matter: we are of course only safe prolonging the restrictions might be justified for certain when we are all safe. As chair of the G7, we have done reasons? I do not demur from that, but the prolonging an enormous amount to try to show leadership in this of inconsistencies is a serious impediment to public area. The G7 committed to share at least 870 million adherence to the rules. You do not have to look very doses directly over the next year and to make these doses far to see where the discipline broke down a long time available as soon as possible. But the numbers involved ago. For example—this is not special pleading; it is are absolutely enormous: 870 million is an astonishing just at the forefront of my mind—you can sing in a figure, but it is not near to the 8 billion that we ultimately pub but not in a church. This is what brings the rules need. At the end of the day, we need manufacturing into disrepute, and therefore people do not agree with in all the regions of the world. That is why, as the them. supporter of the AstraZeneca vaccine, which is made Secondly, can the Minister say something in response on a profit-free basis and on extremely generous terms to Michael Gove’s reported comments about acceptable to manufacturers of the world, Britain has given an death rates? We have learned to live with acceptable enormous benefit to the world. I very much hope that death rates from flu and other seasonal diseases. Will the manufacturing can ramp up to meet that need. the Government do some work on what might be an acceptable death rate from Covid in future and be Baroness Meacher (CB): My Lords, I welcome the up-front with the country as to what that might be? I small but vitally important concession to care home think we can take it. residents in the Statement. However, the Prime Minister has left in place the cruel and unnecessary controls Lord Bethell (Con): I hear loud and clear the frustration over care home visits. Even visitors who have had two of many noble Lords on the question of singing in vaccinations and a negative test before visiting must churches; it is enormously frustrating to those who wear PPE and maintain social distancing—no hugging, have a passion for singing. But I would be pretending for example. This is inhuman, particularly for people to be other than I am if I did not level with the right with dementia, and the risk must be close to zero. Will reverend Prelate and say that this is an airborne, the Minister plead for immediate changes to those aerosol disease. It is breathed into buildings at huge really unnecessary rules? They are well overdue. risk to those inside, and there is a direct correlation between infection rates, that aerosol and that kind of Lord Bethell (Con): The noble Baroness makes the singing. The decision has been made with huge regret case extremely well, and I agree with her sentiment and not without a huge amount of scientific analysis, that the rules are extremely tough. I have heard loud 1785 Covid-19 Update [LORDS] Covid-19 Update 1786

[LORD BETHELL] Lord Hussain (LD): My Lords, in early April, when and clear the many noble Lords who have made this the Government put Pakistan, along with Kenya and case, and we look at it very carefully and thoroughly. the Philippines, on the red list, they gave us reasons At the beginning of the pandemic, one of the most which many people believe did not add up—but I am alarming images—and one that has always stuck in not going to argue with that. What we did not know, my mind—was that of care homes in Spain in Italy, and still do not know, are the criteria for those countries where so many of the residents had died. What we to be taken out of the red list, as there are millions of know for sure is that, even with the vaccine, the virus people affected by that. In April, in Pakistan, new can spread through a care home at great pace—typically cases were running at over 6,000 a day. That has now half of residents will be infected the moment the virus been reduced to just over 1,000 a day. Pakistan has arrives in a care home. Even with the vaccine, we still made a huge improvement in reducing the number of have to step carefully, and that is why these measures Covid cases. Will the Minister tell the 1.4 million are still in place. I very much hope that they will be British people of Pakistani origin living in this country lifted, and I will celebrate that along with all noble when the Government plan to take Pakistan off the Lords who have made this case to me in the past. red list, and what are the criteria?

Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]: My Lords, following Lord Bethell (Con): The noble Lord is entirely right the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, when to ask about the route out. That is exactly what we Gordon Brown called the G7 summit an “unforgivable hope to be thinking about very soon. The criteria will moral failure”, was he not right? With potentially include how much vaccination we have here in the UK billions to vaccinate, the West has miserably abandoned and the efficacy of that vaccine against all the variants the moral high ground on vaccine supply, leaving it to present in the world. They will also include the presence the Chinese and Russians to win new friends and secure of variants in the other countries; there is a stepped influence worldwide. Has not Prime Minister Johnson, process for analysing that. Lastly, they will include the with his short-sighted, unimaginative approach, damaged infection rates in those countries. We hope to be able our credibility across the world? We should have been to take concrete steps on that shortly. The treaties a major worldwide vaccine distributor-producer; we necessary to have mutual vaccine recognition are being failed, and we failed miserably. discussed at a high level as we speak.

Lord Bethell (Con): No, I am afraid the noble Lord Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, my noble friend completely overstates the case; I do not accept the will not be surprised if I ask him whether he can characterisation he has made at all. The challenge is guarantee that, by 19 July, all care home workers will enormous, and he is right to feel that this is one of the have been vaccinated. But could he also answer this most important tasks for humanity in the round—I question? Why is he allowed to go down to his local cannot emphasise that enough. But the practicalities pub and sing “Roll Out the Barrel” but he cannot go are that, in Britain, we make hardly any vaccine at all. into his local church and sing “Guide Me, O Thou It is not for us as a nation to manufacture the vaccine. Great Redeemer”? Where we have contributed is, first, through the science— particularly the AstraZeneca vaccine—and, secondly, Lord Bethell (Con): I completely accept the challenge. through global leadership. The Prime Minister, through These anomalies exist and he is entirely right to beat the G7, has sought to use that post as much as he can, up the Minister for this kind of stuff. It is unbelievably in order to promote the vaccine. I do not accept that difficult to write guidelines that touch so many different China and Russia have in any way contributed anything parts of life, and I would not pretend for a moment like the West has done; the numbers simply do not that there is 100% consistency in everything that is support that. We are working extremely closely with done. But I have made the point emphatically: these the regions of the world—with Africa, South America things are done to save lives and protect people from and beyond—in order to set up the kind of manufacturing infection. They are done with a heavy heart, having that those countries need to provide their people with looked at the scientific evidence, with a sense of regret the safety from the virus that they deserve. that we are letting down those with a passion for singing and religious worship, and in the hope that we Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP): My Lords, urgent can get rid of them very soon. We are taking concrete decisions on Covid restrictions are needed elsewhere steps as quickly as we can to deliver the vaccines. In in the United Kingdom as well. Does the Government terms of care homes, as he knows, there is a consultation accept, however, that decisions that are for a devolved in process and that consultation is working its way Government to make must be that devolved Government’s through. responsibility, and their responsibility alone? For Westminster to impose its will on the Assembly on Baroness Prashar (CB) [V]: The Prime Minister devolved matters would be totally unacceptable and rightly says that we have to learn to live with Covid. would lead inevitably and inexorably to a collapse of Therefore, does the Minister agree that, while vaccinations confidence in devolved institutions. provide protection and effective test and trace is essential, it will continue to be necessary to take sensible precautions Lord Bethell (Con): I am enormously grateful to all for self-protection if we have to learn to live with this the devolved authorities for the work that they have virus and its variants? Does he also agree that there is done with the vaccine and in healthcare. Generally, it a need for continuous public education and clear, has been a very close collaboration, and one that consistent guidance to explain why these precautions I hope continues. are necessary? If so, apart from the effective rollout of 1787 Covid-19 Update [15 JUNE 2021] Covid-19 Update 1788 vaccinations and test and trace, what plans do the said, using the example of the Government banning Government have in the longer run for promoting a hugging for care home residents? I find this intrusion public education health programme? in our private everyday lives deeply frightening.

Lord Bethell (Con): I am enormously grateful for Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, I absolutely forgive the question from the noble Baroness. She gives me an my noble friend because that is an extremely sensible opportunity to lift my head for a moment and think question. I take it on board completely. The endgame about a brighter future, because she is entirely right. is to end a contagious disease that has exponential One of the possible benefits from this awful virus is a growth. As she knows, R is currently between 1.2 and different approach to public health that is much more 1.4. If it goes unchecked, this disease will spread effective in fighting contagious diseases, where we pretty much through the whole population. The vaccine have much more effective tests for everything from flu is excellent at keeping people out of hospital, but not to RSV to things like Covid as well, and where we can everyone. It is excellent at preventing deaths, but not get therapeutic drugs to people the moment they test for everyone. It is good at stopping the disease, but positive so that they do not fall sick. We can use this only half of the disease. We must get enough vaccine investment in public health to help level up some of out there so that the disease will not run through the the health inequalities that have beset this country so entire population and lead to the deaths of thousands, heavily. tens of thousands, or more. That is the endgame of this project. Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, is there not a problem in looking for a different approach in Lord Trees (CB): My Lords, will the Minister confirm the future? The precedent set by the Government’s that the Covid cases reported daily in the media are attitude to Parliament fills one with a great deal of not clinical cases? They are not sick people but positive concern about the way our parliamentary democracy results of the PCR test. Given that the PCR test is is going to work. Can he simply tell me why the Prime incredibly sensitive and can detect tiny numbers of Minister did not make a Statement to the Commons virus particles, what proportion of positive tests is last night? likely to develop clinical disease?

Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, the Secretary of State Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, the PCR test is very was there. I thought he presented the steps regulations sensitive. Most people who take the test are presenting extremely clearly and did a great job. a symptom, so a very high proportion of those positives are people who have the disease when they take it. Of Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD) [V]: Can I ask the course, there are many who have the disease and do Minister what we have learned from the treating of not take a test at all, so there is more disease in the this pandemic to help us face the future? We have population than accounted for in the positive tests. learned very clearly how much countries depend upon There is a very small proportion of people who might one another. Our first vaccines came from Belgium. have shreds of the virus from a previous infection who Can we make sure we do not build walls, but build then test positive, but it is thought that that proportion bridges, as we look forward to the future? is very small.

Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, I am extremely Lord Robathan (Con): My Lords, yesterday the Prime touched by the noble Lord’s words, and I completely Minister said that this extension of restrictions will endorse his meaning. It was awful last year when we “save many thousands of lives” saw multilateralism and global co-operation fracture and he was backed up by the Health Secretary. Since and decay. We had to look to our friends and resources 18 May, the weekly average number of deaths per day within our own borders to answer the pandemic. That from Covid has been in single figures—almost all of did not work and will not work. The noble Lord is whom will have had underlying health conditions—while absolutely right. From a pragmatic point of view, we each day about 450 people die from cancer. Will the depend upon global supply chains for the benefit of Government publish, or will my noble friend give global science. From a personal and human point of Parliament the opportunity to see, the evidence and view, we depend upon the solidarity of humankind to research behind the “many thousands of lives” saved? get us through these awful moments. I completely endorse the noble Lord’s point. Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords,I completely understand the point. There is a lag to the deaths. At the moment, Baroness Altmann (Con) [V]: My Lords, I commend we are seeing the infection rate go up, which is leading my noble friend for all his work helping fight this to a small increase in hospitalisations. As my noble dreadful pandemic; I know his dedication is second to friend quite rightly points out, that increase has not none. I hope he will forgive me for asking: what is the been seen in deaths yet, and thank goodness for that. endgame? He has said today that we must prevent We do not know for sure what proportion of infections people getting sick, but that seems to mean just getting will lead to severe disease or death. We know it is a sick with one illness: Covid. What about the suicides, percentage; we do not know exactly what percentage. heart attacks and cancers that are being missed because But should the disease spread through millions in the of lockdown? Covid is responsible for less than 1% of population, which is entirely possible without the NPIs deaths right now. Can we not trust the British people we have in place, then the number of deaths will be to be sensible and choose the risks they are willing to very significant—possibly as many as we have seen take, along the lines the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, already. 1789 Covid-19 Update[LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1790

Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl): I do not think the Minister Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl): The Minister should dismiss so lightly the questions about has said several times that there are grounds for optimism. inconsistencies in the regulations. This really does get Does he not realise that this delay has caused despair? home to whether the public are going to believe in and The Minister urged opponents to sit in the seats of carry out those regulations. Can I give him one example? decision-makers. Can I urge him to sit in the seats of Wimbledon is going to be full to capacity with singing, the trashed events industry today and those likely to clapping and cheering—yes, outside—but how on earth lose their jobs in hospitality, sport, theatre and so on? then can weddings and outside receptions not be allowed I appreciate that many people and the public remain to sing, cheer and do all the things that happen at nervous of living with the virus, despite the wonders of weddings? These inconsistencies do not make common the vaccine. However,is it not the job of the Government sense. The Minister needs to understand that. to lead with courage, to reassure people not to be unduly frightened or succumb to fatalism, and to protect the Lord Bethell (Con): I hope that the noble Baroness unquantifiable non-Covid-related social fabric of society, will accept my apology if I have in any way suggested which they are tearing up? that I am flippant about inconsistency—I am not. What I have in my mind is the huge amount of work that is Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, I sympathise with done by policy officials in order to try to be as consistent those in the events and hospitality industry. As I said a as possible. I pay tribute to the colossal human effort moment ago, it is an industry I have a huge affection that goes into trying to make sure that everything we for. I worked in it for many years and I know through do is aligned. It is a monumental and very difficult task. my friends and family who work in it how hard hit it The noble Baroness is right to say that Wimbledon has been, in particular for those who work on a casual is a big event pilot, quite different in its ambition and basis and enjoy it from an aesthetic point of view as its tone to some of the other events—for instance, the well as needing work of a casual nature. But these care homes that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, decisions are tough and hard. It would have been easier, referred to. What we are trying to do is to take fairy perhaps, to have given ground in areas where we have footsteps out of the pandemic. Wimbledon, for instance, been pressed and lobbied, but we have, where necessary, will account for many hundreds of thousands of tests made the tough decisions based on the science and the as we use very rigorous testing procedures to try to advice that we have from clinicians in order to protect protect the rate of infection in that big event. If it is both life and the economy. At the end of the day, we successful, it will help us lead our way out of this horrible do not have an economy if we have a pandemic running arrangement. through our society. We do not have trust and we do not have people going out and about and enjoying Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]: At a personal level, I feel normal lives if there is disease. That is one important very sorry for the Minister. He must realise that there reason why we have backed the decisions we have are considerable doubts across both Houses about the made. Prime Minister’s sincerity and truthfulness. Have we been told the whole truth and nothing but the truth 2.04 pm about the delay over dealing with India? Sitting suspended. Lord Bethell (Con): Yes, we have. Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]: My Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] Lords, in this pandemic, as always, the difficult judgment Second Reading that has to be made is between lives and livelihoods. Decisions have been taken to protect lives by retaining 2.09 pm the existing measures for a further month. The Minister Moved by Baroness Berridge will no doubt appreciate that I and other noble Lords have been extensively lobbied by musicians, independent That the Bill be now read a second time. workers in the hospitality and entertainment sectors, who have fallen through the cracks with no support. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department Does he not agree that it is reasonable to argue that an for Education and Department for International Trade equitable balance now would be to provide targeted (Baroness Berridge) (Con): My Lords, first, I thank financial support to those self-employed and freelance those who contributed to the debate following Her workers who have not had a fair deal throughout this Majesty’s gracious Speech, when we first discussed this crisis? Bill. I also thank noble Lords who attended the recent briefing with departmental Ministers. For the benefit Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, having worked in the of noble Lords contributing remotely, I note that the music industry for 15 years, I absolutely identify with ParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforApprenticeships the challenge he describes. However, I remind him that and Skills is physically present with us in the Chamber we have been emphatically forthcoming in trying to today. I also look forward to hearing the maiden support workers through this difficult pandemic. We speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Black of Strome, have provided £70 billion for the furlough scheme and and it is wonderful to see the priority given to the Bill £33 billion for the self-employment income support by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, who is speaking scheme, which would touch many of the musicians to today on her birthday. I am glad to see a common whom he refers. We have stepped forward financially desire to look at skills reform and further education. in a very big way and will continue to do so until the I look forward to the debate that we will share, and I end of this awful situation. welcome the scrutiny that the Bill will be placed under. 1791 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1792

We can all agree that skills and post-16 education We want our reforms to work for everyone, which is needs its moment in the spotlight, both in Parliament why we are working with noble Lords, including the and in communities across the country. We talk about noble Lord, Lord Addington, to ensure that we support the forgotten 50% of people who do not go to university; those with special educational needs to access the today, we are giving this policy and the people it improved skills training and education that our reforms affects the attention they deserve. We can see today the aim to deliver. I take this opportunity to thank the vastchallengesfacingthenation.Covid-19hassignificantly noble Lord for his dedication, challenge and advocacy impacted the economy and shown us how urgently we on this issue, as well as our other FE ambassadors, need a resilient, highly skilled workforce. We all see the who have brought a breadth of knowledge and enthusiasm clock ticking towards 2050, when we have committed to our discussions. to reaching net-zero carbon emissions, and we are all The chair of the Education Select Committee, the aware of our need to succeed as an independent trading right honourable Robert Halfon, called the White Paper nation, following our departure from the European Union. a “sea change”. The Association of Colleges noted This is also the perfect opportunity to think about that it what constitutes our nation. Is it one big city, or a “recognises the vital role that colleges and further education will couple of big cities? No, it is a diverse set of communities, play in levelling up for people and places whilst tackling long families and individuals, with different ambitions and standing concerns about stagnating productivity”. potential. This means that we need to match opportunities Employers such as the Co-op welcomed our reforms. with the talent that we know can be found across the We know that to deliver the reforms successfully country. We need to ensure that people can succeed requires funding. That is why we have backed up the without feeling that they have to move to one of the White Paper with £2.5 billion towards the national big cities. This past year’s extraordinary transition to skills fund, £1.5 billion to improve the college estate, flexible working for many has only proved this further. and £650 million extra into further education for 16 to We have a duty to make sure that the skills provision 19 year-olds.The White Paper sets out our comprehensive offered in people’s home towns meets their needs and programme for reform, and the Bill before us will provide ambitions and that of employers, so that everyone has the necessary statutory underpinning for change. the opportunity to realise their full potential and find The Bill is divided into three sections that support success,wherever they live and whatever their background. the principles of the White Paper. First, it aims to The evidence is clear: we have a problem in the provide a framework for ensuring that skills and post-16 balance of education. Only 4% of young people achieve education leads people towards a great job. That is a qualification at higher technical level by the age of why we are creating a statutory underpinning for local 25, compared to a third who get a degree or above, yet skills improvement plans, which we will shortly be 34% of working-age graduates are not in high-skilled trailblazing in some local areas. By putting employers employment. No wonder more parents would now and their representative bodies at the heart of the prefer that their child gain a vocational qualification post-16 skills system, we are focusing on meeting local than a degree. University is a great option for some skills gaps and prioritising training in growth sectors. but not the best option for everyone, and it should not This will ensure that employers have the skills they be seen to be the only pathway to success. My honourable need to drive growth in local areas; it will support friend, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for opportunities for learners to get good jobs and help Apprenticeships and Skills often tells me how inspired the existing workforce to retrain. This will help us get she is by the learners she meets on visits to colleges rid of the idea that career success can be found only in and further education institutions—people who have a big city. found their vocation and their way of success through Relevant providers will need to have regard to these technical education. plans when considering their technical education and Philip Augar’s 2018 Post-18 Review of Education training offer. These changes will also be supported by and Funding made the call for parity of esteem between a new duty on further education institutions to review further and higher education. I take this moment to their provision to ensure that it meets local needs. In offer my congratulations on his recent knighthood in addition, the Bill supports the provision of the advanced the Queen’s Birthday Honours List. The review set out technical and higher education skills the country needs the case very clearly for a genuine choice, for everyone, by creating a strong link to employer-led standards. beyond the fantastic opportunities offered through The Bill will reform the technical education system so our world-class university system. I also pay tribute to that it is high-quality, stable and coherent. It does this the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, who served on the by giving the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical review’s panel. The Government have listened to this Education powers to approve new categories of technical call; the Skills for Jobs White Paper, published earlier qualifications, simplifying a system in which there are this year, set out our vision to reform post-16 education currently over 12,000 qualifications. The Bill also gives and training. We will prioritise flexibility, accountability a statutory footing to the collaborative relationship and quality, and we will put employers at the heart of between the institute and Ofqual. the system, building on what we have done with Perhaps the major plank of the Bill is that it supports apprenticeships and T-levels, so that individuals can the introduction of the lifelong loan entitlement, as know what their qualification leads to, and employers part of a flexible lifetime skills guarantee. This measure can have confidence in them. Given that 80% of the will be rolled out from 2025 and will give all adults workforce of 2030 are already in work today, it is access to the equivalent of four years of student loans essential that we have a flexible system for adult retraining for higher-level study at levels 4 to 6. The loans will be which supports people to progress in their careers. able to be used flexibly, full time or part time, for 1793 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1794

[BARONESS BERRIDGE] structural change where that is the best way to secure modules or full qualifications and for provision in improvement. Alongside the final part of the Bill, it colleges or universities. At the moment, maximum will improve the efficiency of the FE insolvency regime. amounts for funding are set in relation to an academic One of the strengths of the FE market is the flexibility year. The Bill will make it clear that maximum loan of its provider base. These measures will give the amounts can be set in other ways. The Government impetus for this flexibility to be used to protect learners will consult on the details of the lifelong loan entitlement, and provide education and training that has this clear including on how best to support students with the path towards the labour market. living costs of study, and whether equivalent and I am delighted that this Bill is before us today. lower qualifications restrictions should be amended to We have an opportunity to begin the process of support retraining and stimulate provision. transforming opportunities for young people and adults. The ambition is to replace the two existing systems Events of the past year have shown us how important that offer government-financed loans to learners studying skills and further education will be to our recovery as at levels 4 to 6 with the single LLE system. These two both an economy and as a nation. As noble Lords existing systems of higher education student finance have often said, this has been the Cinderella of the and advanced learner loans provide funding support sector for too long. This reform is long overdue, but is for different types of courses.The lifelong loan entitlement only one step on a longer journey. We will work to aims to create a simpler and clearer system, but it will ensure that the 50% of people who do not go to require extensive operational changes to the student university will no longer be called “forgotten” and finance system and the types of course available, which stuck in what are wrongly called “forgotten towns”. is why it will be rolled out from 2025. It is the step Instead, we will make skills and jobs available to change in the system that will give people the opportunity everyone, wherever they are. This Bill will help provide to upskill, retrain and reskill, providing the alternative those learners with high-quality provision, protection to the notion that a standard three-year degree is the and the skills and education that can transform their only route to success and giving people the flexibility lives. I beg to move. to change their future. 2.22 pm Of course, it is important to ensure that there is sufficient provision for lower-level qualifications. That Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab): I thank the is why, separate from the Bill, the Government’s adult Minister for her kind wishes—a year older and, hopefully, education budget will continue to fully fund courses in a year wiser in the company of your Lordships. English and maths up to and including level 2 for I am opening this debate from the Opposition adults who have not previously attained a GCSE Front Bench, and I am able to do so after a lifetime of grade C or, in new currency, grade 4. The national working with young people, developing their skills skills fund funds adults to complete their first level 3 and encouraging lifelong learning. In recent years I qualification alongside the new skills boot camps. was able to use that experience as the local government education spokesperson for Wales, specifically with a These reforms mean very little if education or training skills agenda as the lead portfolio holder in the Cardiff provision is not of the highest quality. That is why the capital region, which covers 52% of the Welsh population. second part of the Bill proposes powers to make The regional skills partnership showed me that, by regulations to improve and secure the quality of FE initial working together with all interested parties, real progress teacher training by shaping the market for that provision. could be made to promote strategic and collaborative This power will be used only if these improvements decision-making. Representatives from business, further cannot be achieved through working collaboratively and higher education training providers and national with the sector. The Bill will also make it clear that the and local government joined together to share their Office for Students has the ability to make assessments knowledge and understanding of the sectors they by reference to absolute student outcomes. This will represented, to ensure the region was able to respond give confidence that the same standard can be applied to a demand-led approach to developing skills and across all higher education providers and for all students, talent. The lack of that level of shared collaboration while continuing to take into account context and across all sectors is a significant area of concern on the individual circumstances. face of the Bill as it stands. The third part of the Bill aims to ensure there are While wholesale changes to the way we support FE sufficient protections in place for learners. It will allow skills, adult learning and part-time HE are long overdue, the Government to introduce a list of post-16 education this Bill remains inadequate to tackle the scale of the or training providers. To be on this list, providers will skills challenges that have resulted from years of neglect need to meet conditions aimed at protecting learners and austerity, exacerbated by the pandemic. As furlough against the negative impacts of potential provider ends, no community will be untouched by unemployment. failure.This issue,which relates particularly to independent It is vital, therefore, that a joined-up, place-based training providers, was raised in this House during the employment, skills and careers system offers adults passage of the Technical and Further Education Bill and young people the recovery they deserve, by providing in 2017. I am glad to bring a solution to this issue back access to quality education and training opportunities. to the House today. This section of the Bill also gives A range of choices and opportunities should be central powers to the Secretary of State, who took his place to any reform, and changes to the post-16 education on the steps of the Throne as I began, to intervene in system should allow for progression and pathways the statutory further education sector where local between technical education, apprenticeships and existing needs are not being met, or to direct mergers or further and higher education qualifications. 1795 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1796

Among others, local government has an important Another clear omission is funding for adult learners role. Councils have direct functions to plan post-16 to take a second level 3 qualification. Many adult skills, support young people with specific needs and learners will have achieved their first level 3 many deliver adult and community learning and other related years ago and may have used it to pursue a career that functions. Mayoral combined authorities have devolved is no longer viable. With the economic turmoil that responsibility for the adult education budget, which has come from this pandemic, many adults will want they have used to reshape the local further education and need to reskill rather than upskill—to switch sectors offer, working with employers, FE providers and and enter new careers. Support for second level 3 constituent local authorities. qualifications could facilitate this. There is, however, an overt emphasis in the Bill on Every area in the UK needs a mix of provision an employer-led approach to develop local skills specific to their local context—to their community improvement plans alongside training providers. We and sub-economy. However, the Bill is not explicit in offer that MCAs and local authorities should be strategic certain features of the LSIP, including what constitutes partners—and on the face of the Bill. Their wide-ranging “local”. Is it a specified area, or is the scope of further knowledge and expertise on this agenda are currently education provision included? Does the Minister believe missing, and we will be seeking amendments to develop that the definition of “local need” should incorporate collaboration, away from the overarching employer-led a broad range of outcomes related to health and approach that currently dominates. well-being, community participation and other social Therefore, can the Minister explain why metro mayors and economic outcomes that can be linked to community and combined authorities,many of which have democratic adult learning? accountability for local skills and economic regeneration, The Bill does provide for a statutory basis for have been excluded? How do the Government envisage LSIPs, with the Secretary of State gaining powers to LSIPs relating to existing local and regional economic designate employer representative bodies. I am pleased strategies, especially where funding may be directly to see that he is here to hear it directly from me. But we linked to delivery against them? And why are local are concerned that the Government’sdesire for employers enterprise partnerships not covered in the Bill? to take the lead in skill reform lacks clear structure Furthermore, the Bill does not provide support for and transparency and will render providers passive any qualifications below level 3, despite lower-level recipients of LSIPs. We will seek to amend the Bill to qualifications offering many adult learners key progression empower metro mayors and combined authorities to routes. Nor does it support subjects outside a narrow coproduce the plans, in recognition of the crucial they band of technical disciplines. Labour is concerned have to play. that nearly 1 million priority jobs will be excluded from the LSG in sectors facing a skills shortage. We will seek to extend LSIP consultation to student The Bill also appears to omit reskilling and second representatives, trade unions, local and devolved level 3 qualifications. So can the Minister confirm that government and other relevant agencies. We also intend the LSG does not cover subsequent level 3 courses? to probe further how ERBs will be held to democratic Does she agree that all adults should be eligible for accountability and the degree to which providers meet retraining, given the impact of the pandemic and local needs. We are concerned that the Secretary of changing market needs? Is it not now time that the State has the power to select or sack ERBs, sign off on Government put the LSG on a statutory footing? all LSIPs,dictate whether colleges fulfil these requirements, We are concerned that the detail of the lifetime loan and to merge or replace colleges without recourse to entitlement is yet to be confirmed. It appears that it local circumstances. The first port of call for approving will only cover tuition costs for higher-tuition courses. local plans and remedying poor local performance Labour believes the system of loans, and in particular should be local and not the centralisation of taking means-tested grants, should be extended to support back control to Westminster. The Secretary of State’s adult learners’ living costs, and that universal credit powers must be narrowed to apply only in clearly defined, conditions should be reformed so that the people who exceptional circumstances. would benefit from attending college or accessing The Bill gives the Institute for Apprenticeships and training while unemployed or in part-time employment Technical Education—a non-departmental public body do not lose out. directly accountable to Ministers—the ultimate sign-off The planned introduction of the LSG in 2024 and power for the approval and regulation of technical the LLE in 2025 should also be brought forward by qualifications. We are concerned that this handing back, several years. Can the Minister assure the House that day to day, of political control of technical qualification the Government will introduce these LLE amendments regulation would undermine the independent status of in Committee and ensure that they are not tabled at Ofqual and risk a cumbersome new dual regulatory the 11th hour? approval system. We will seek to amend the Bill to There is concern that many adults will be unable to ensure that Ofqual remains the sole body. take advantage of the opportunity to gain level 3 We further believe that the failure to link this Bill to qualifications if they lack a level 2 qualification. The the apprenticeship levy is a missed opportunity, given Bill omits the value of qualifications below level 3 in that the underspend could be used to provide quality creating progression pathways for students. Recent training, education or employment opportunities. It is Department for Education data has shown the return especially disappointing that supported internships, on investment of these qualifications and concluded which can play a huge role in supporting learners with that the present net value of qualifications below level learning difficulties to prepare for and enter the world 2 is higher than for level 3. of work, are missing from the Bill. 1797 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1798

[BARONESS WILCOX OF NEWPORT] parents but of society itself, so that vocational education We urge the Government, in tandem with the is regarded as the right route for a large number of our introduction of the Bill, to prepare and publish a students. cross-departmental 10-year national strategy for education The Bill is an important beacon for changing attitudes and skills to deliver on a wide policy agenda. Consultation and perceptions. It gives us the opportunity to realise must be wide so that the strategy and oversight of that education should be an opportunity for life, so meaningful collaboration, as I outlined at the beginning, whether you are a mum who is now ready to go back can be carried forward towards a better tomorrow for and study or someone who wants to retrain so that the people who have done so much during this past they can improve their job prospects, that opportunity year to demonstrate the dependence we have on their is freely available. There should be no barriers to skills and their hard work in running our services and learning. Everyone, no matter their circumstances, should industries. be encouraged to have lifelong learning opportunities. Indeed, as our Prime Minister said: 2.32 pm “These new laws are the rocket fuel that we need to level up Lord Storey (LD): My Lords, I too wish the noble this country and ensure equal opportunities for all … I’m Baroness a happy birthday. I also look forward to revolutionising the system so we can move past the outdated hearing the maiden speech from the noble Baroness, notion that there is only one route up the career ladder, and Lady Black. ensure that everyone has the opportunity to retrain or upskill at any point in their lives.” We are finally getting there, are we not? There is the work that the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, has done They are passionate words from the Prime Minister. and now she has been promoted to advising the Prime We must ensure that the Bill captures his rhetoric. I Minister on this area. There is Philip Augar’s report, am sure there will be a large number of amendments which was so important. There is the Technical and that enable this to happen. Further Education Act, which the noble Lord, Lord If we really mean lifelong learning opportunities Johnson, was part of; it is good to see him taking part for all, a number of areas need clarification and probably in this debate. There seems to be a sort of sea-change amendments. The lifetime loan entitlement would open taking place, which I very much welcome. I suspect up tuition fee loans for people taking level 4 and level that many of us will repeat the same issues. 5 qualifications, which are especially important for I consider this the most important education Bill unlocking higher technical skills. Many adults will be that your Lordships have considered in certainly the unable to take up these opportunities because there is last 20 years. The skills and vocational education Bill no support for living costs while they are taking a arrives when we face huge skills shortages, high rates course. Thus these people will be prevented from of youth unemployment and the uncertainties of the transforming their life chances and being part of the post-Brexit, post-pandemic world. Yet opportunities skilled workforce that the country and the economy are there, not least the green revolution. The Bill must need. We also need to look at the entitlement rules for be about the education system that we want for our those people who are unemployed and on universal children and young people. credit and would benefit from attending college. The 16-hour rule is a barrier to those NEETs who could be Many young people are being denied the opportunities upskilled or retrained. that their academic peers have always received. We have an educational ethos in our country that celebrates As we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady and rewards the academically minded and treats the Wilcox, the Bill offers no support for those students rest as second best. For most parents and, indeed, below level 3. Surely it is important that we recognise society, the hallmark of a successful education is passing that this is part of the educational landscape. Many the required number of GCSEs to progress into the adults achieved their level 3 many years ago and maybe sixth form and then getting good A-level grades to want to pursue a new career or reskill. Support could secure a university place. However, research tells us facilitate this. Should we not be making funding available that an academic and knowledge-based curriculum is for these learners? not suitable or worth while for 50% or so of our school I want to raise two other considerations, perhaps pupils, yet we persist in putting these pupils in an minor ones but important ones. Some people of faith, academic straitjacket. Instead, we should provide a including Muslims, do not feel able to take on an vocational education as good, respected and celebrated interest-bearing loan. The Government identified this as the academic one. Would it not be uplifting to see as a barrier to participation. What progress has been banners outside school gates praising not only the made on a sharia-compliant loan system? Students A-level pass rate but the vocational success of our from disadvantaged backgrounds or those on universal students? credit struggle to get the technology they need. Will The other key ingredient must be first-rate careers the Government consider making IT support available guidance and education. Every pupil should be given for these students? While we are talking about barriers, regular face-to-face support by a qualified careers what progress has been made on the issue of 16 year- teacher or officer to understand the pupil’s abilities, olds who are denied the opportunity to take part in interests and passions, and to clearly let the pupil see the Kickstart programme because they are on universal the opportunities available and not try to push them credit? into the sixth form. It might be more appropriate for Apprenticeships were one of the flagship policies them to go to a further education college or a UTC or and achievements of the coalition Government, but to undergo an apprenticeship. By doing this, we will sadly we have seen the number fall 18% year on year, gradually change the mindset not just of pupils and so that in 2019-20 it was down by 319,000. We know 1799 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1800 that any business with a payroll of more than £3 million The White Paper says: has to pay 0.5% in a levy, but businesses are often “We need impartial, lifelong careers advice and guidance unable to use all their levy, so it gets clawed back by available to people when they need it, regardless of age, circumstance, the Treasury. A recent survey by Energy & Utility Skills or background.” received responses from 22 companies which employ I would also say that we need a system in which the 100,000 people, with over 4,000 apprenticeships, and Careers and Enterprise Company and the National found that half the levy they paid was going back to Careers Service are working more effectively together the Treasury. Could we not be imaginative and start to create an all-age careers system better able to support using that levy in different ways? Some businesses are learners seeking to navigate what will be a much more already being imaginative and using the levy to provide complex system following the implementation of this coursesfortheirexistingstaff.AttheYouthUnemployment legislation. I would also like to see us providing more Select Committee today, we heard one of the witnesses face-to-face coaching, not just a better digital information say that the apprenticeship scheme was in danger of bank. I think that will be especially important as we becoming an adult learning scheme. That is a sad exit the pandemic. I know that Sir John Holman has indictment of our high hopes for apprenticeships. been appointed to advise on all of this, but we still await I reflect that a significant number of employers are his recommendations, and it is unfortunate that it has concerned that young people entering apprenticeships not been possible to incorporate them in the Bill. and vocational training programmes do not have a Perhaps the Minister can update us about where these sufficient foundation in practical skills and work readiness recommendations are, when they will be published and to enable them to progress as quickly as they might; how they will sit alongside the Bill. often the shortcomings are not academic. Would it not The second issue is the lifelong learning entitlement. be imaginative to use some of that levy which has to The Open University has pointed out that this is be returned to the Treasury to fund local employment presented in the Bill as a bolt-on, creating a separate engagement, perhaps with local schools? funding system for modular study. A more ambitious If the Minister has time, perhaps she would be kind reform would have been to create a unified credit-based enough to write to me about regulation. The Bill will system for learning that does not distinguish between transfer powers from the independent regulator, Ofqual, different modes of study. But leaving that to one side to the less independent, non-government body, the for the moment, Clauses 14 and 15 leave some very Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education. important questions unanswered—questions which I It is responsible for introducing its own T-levels while have raised before in the House in debates on lifelong also regulating the broader qualification market. Is learning. For example, will people be able to use their there not a risk of a real conflict of interest? The Bill entitlement to study at an equivalent or lower level to would allow it to charge fees for the approval and their previous studies? The local skills improvement accreditation of new qualifications already regulated plans might well encourage them to do so. I know that by Ofqual. There is no information about how these this is subject to consultation, but could we not take fees will be regulated. The relationship between Ofqual action on this earlier? What will the repayment terms and the IfATE needs detailing. The current proposals be for any loan? Will we continue—perversely,I think—to have the potential to cause overlap and confusion. penalise students who choose to study at a distance? We have seen how other European countries, notably How exactly will the credit transfer arrangements Germany and Switzerland, have valued the importance work between providers? of vocational education and, as a result, have done far Then there is the cost of study itself, including better than the UK in providing the skills that their living costs. This is not addressed in the Bill; it is economies need. Let this Bill, wisely amended, give every another matter for consultation, but it is key to the person the opportunity they need, as well as what the successful implementation of these reforms. The Welsh country and the economy need, to be successful. Government recently introduced reforms to tackle this by extending maintenance support, including means-tested 2.43 pm grants, to all students, regardless of the mode of study. Lord Bichard (CB) [V]: My Lords, I welcome the Importantly, they also introduced lower tuition fees Bill because it acknowledges the importance of skills for part-time study.As a result, they have been rewarded and vocational learning to the economy, productivity with a huge increase in participation, which is what we and, let us not forget, the capacity of people to fulfil all want. Will the Minister tell us whether the Government their personal potential. I hope it will be a significant are thinking along similar lines? step towards reversing the huge decline in adult learning I agree with the principle of having the employer’s we have experienced in recent years which, as some of voice heard clearly in the skills system and for skills us believe, is overdue. But whether it is successful in providers to be responsive to, and accountable to, doing that will depend not on bold ambitions and local employers for their provision. Actually, some warm words but on the detailed delivery. In particular, older Members will remember that this was one of the it will depend on some issues which are either not reasons why we once had a department for education covered at all in the Bill or referred to only in outline. and employment. Some colleges and independent training I want to touch on one or two of those today. providers have too often focused on offering courses The first is advice and guidance. The White Paper and programmes which generated much-needed funding for skills and jobs rightly says that we need: but were not necessarily relevant to local employment “Clear and outcomes-focused careers information” needs. What I struggle with, though, is why this is and that it is being piloted with chambers of commerce and other “fundamental to the success of our reforms.” representative bodies when they are not resourced for 1801 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1802

[LORD BICHARD] You can do academic courses in further education colleges the task and sometimes do not have very strong and vocational courses in universities. If distinctions membership bases. We already have skills advisory are used to create conflict between these two parts of panels that bring together employers, providers and our education system—both very important—the cause funding agencies and are supported by learning and that the Minister rightly supports will be put back rather enterprise councils, so do we really need to introduce than advancing. additional complexity? Why not build on the existing I have met a young man at a workbench making a skills advisory approach and make a more inclusive bit of kit to be launched on to a satellite as part of his way of providing advice on employers’ needs? doctoral training. It is an old Oxbridge mindset, the Finally, as I suspect others may not raise it, I shall belief that universities are for the liberal arts—for say a word about independent training providers. The gentlemen—while vocational courses are for training Bill rightly focuses on supporting colleges and further colleges, and that if a university dares to provide education, but independent training providers at their vocational training it must mean that it is a bad university. best can be more fleet of foot and more responsive to That model is one of the reasons we have the skills employer and local skill needs. In my local area here in crisis that we worry about now; it is the wrong mindset Gloucestershire, many providers feel that the skills Bill for trying to tackle this problem. I very much hope, could make their existence more perilous. They recognise therefore, that the Minister will be able to assure us the importance of offering high-quality provision and that she fully understands that universities—especially being sustainable businesses, but many feel that they some of the less prestigious universities, whose origins will be disadvantaged by, for example, not being able are often as colleges of advanced technology and to bid into the skills accelerated development fund which have not lost sight of their original mission—are andbeingseenassecond-tierprovidersforvariouscontracts. one of the instruments that she can use to fulfil her During the passage of the Bill, we need to ensure that objectives. itispossibleforindependenttrainingproviderstocontinue This is also very important, and will be tested, in to provide their best and to strengthen in the future. the Minister’s admirable objective of tackling the anomalies of level 4 and 5 funding—a peculiar feature 2.50 pm of the system, going back to provisions in the 1992 Lord Willetts (Con): My Lords, I warmly welcome Act. Augar was right to say in his report that we need a the Bill. I begin by declaring my interests as chancellor more flexible regime for levels 4 and 5. I pay tribute to of the University of Leicester, a visiting professor at the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, for her campaign on King’s College London and a member of the boards this. We do need a better funding arrangement for of Thames Holdings Ltd and UKRI. levels 4 and 5. At the moment they are niche, essentially The principles and objectives of the Bill are very nursing diplomas for women and engineering courses welcome. It is absolutely right to want to do more for for men; I do not say that with any endorsement of the further education colleges, to focus on technical and stereotypes but it seems to be the origin of the widely vocational skills, and to try to do more on lifelong cited figure for earnings for some at levels 4 and 5. We learning, but there is a lot to do to flesh out those need to make it easier and more flexible, but can the principles in practical legislation. The Government Minister assure the House that funding for levels 4 have several important consultation exercises under and 5 should be institution-blind? It should be delivered way at the moment, which will help them see how they by FE colleges but could also be delivered by higher intend to apply those principles. I hope the Minister education institutions. can assure the House that we will have ample opportunity The new loan scheme is an exciting initiative. I confess to review and revise this legislation as it goes through to this House that, looking back on my record in both Houses of Parliament in the light of the outcomes government, one of the things I most regret is the of their consultations. decline in adult learning during my time as Minister. While I welcome the principles, the really important There are many complicated reasons for that. One was matter is what they mean in practice. Here, I have to that we tried to apply the same funding model to adult say that I am concerned about a deep confusion—an learning as to 18 year-olds going to university. For an artificial conflict, perhaps—between “vocational” and 18 year-old, taking on a loan when they are at a big “academic”. In her opening speech, the Minister herself fork in the road does not, thank heavens, put them off referred to parents preferring that their child should going to university. For adult learners, however, taking have a vocational qualification rather than a degree. I out a loan may be a very different decision and far am familiar with the research, published by the Social more worrying. So, one lesson I learned from what we Market Foundation, on which that statement rests. I went through was that a single funding model may not find it very hard to make sense of the question that work as well for adult learners as for younger people was put to people in that opinion survey. I talk to en route to university. I hope the Minister will reflect universities, which tell me that 70% of their students on that as the Government design this new single scheme. are studying on a course accredited by an employer or I wished to comment further on the role of employers an employer organisation; they are doing courses that and the importance of individuals, but I see that time are a licence to practise. The White Paper rightly refers has passed. I just say to the Minister that while, of to the need for nurses and engineers. These courses are course, employers have an important voice, we should also delivered by universities—are they academic or not forget the individual learner. He or she may be vocational? It is a false distinction, which should not inspired to shape their life around a course or an be used to create conflict between higher and further occupation, and it might not be for a big industry in education when both have an important role to play. the area where they live; it might be in something 1803 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1804 exciting on the horizon for which there is not currently make up 17% of the overall intake, a figure which rises an employer. I very much hope that, in the course of to 23% of 16 to 18 year-old learners. In 2019-20, local our debate, the Minister will say that the individual authorities placed over 64,000 students with education, shaping his or her destiny matters as much as the employer health and care plans in colleges—90% of them in and the education institution. general FE colleges and the rest in specialist institutions. The funding regime does not provide support for 2.57 pm students in FE who do not have EHCPs to anything like the degree required, yet the Bill makes no specific The Lord Bishop of Leeds: My Lords, I strongly reference to such students, although we welcome the endorse the previous speech, particularly as it notes promised Green Paper due in the summer. It would be the crazy distinction between vocational and academic helpful if the Minister could consider how the appropriate study. On these Benches, we welcome the commitment degree of priority could be given to this diverse cohort from the Government to the further education and of learners in policy and funding terms, and how that skills sector as set out in the Bill. It is particularly might best be reflected in the Bill, as it passes through pleasing to see that the Bill builds on the practical the House. reforms outlined in the Skills for Jobs White Paper. In this context, I also strongly commend to the House 3.01 pm the Church of England’snew vision for further education report, published at the end of April, which also Lord Puttnam (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I congratulate recognises the key role that FE plays in driving individual, the Government on bringing forward a Bill to address community and societal transformation. an area which, for more years than I care to remember, I wish to make three points. First, how might has resisted every attempt to implement a coherent learners be enabled or incentivised to upskill or reskill, long-term employment policy. I am no fan of Dominic particularly those such as the long-term furloughed or Cummings but, during his recent evidence to the Select people heavily reliant on welfare payments, who have Committee, he was precisely on the money in pointing been particularly impacted by the pandemic? The Bill out the lamentable record of successive British outlines structures and organisations required for Governments to learn lessons from countries such as delivering training but does not suggest how such Norway, Finland and New Zealand —the noble Lord, people actually get to the training in the first place. Lord Storey, added Germany and Switzerland—which Clearly, the welcome commitment to a reintroduction have successfully created well-thought-through skills and of maintenance grants is a significant part of this, yet apprenticeship programmes. These policies have allowed the need, already referred to by other speakers, to many of them to race past us in offering appropriate cover basic living expenses while studying is an immediate pathways and opportunities for skilling and reskilling and powerful potential barrier to learning. This could those for whom higher education was either unavailable be an opportune time to reconsider the 16 hours-a-week or simply not all that attractive. work rule for those in receipt of universal credit, with I have never been able to establish whether this is as proper safeguards in place to prevent abuse of the a result of arrogance or ignorance but, either way, system. Great training is pointless if the people who many sectors of our economy have been allowed to need it are not incentivised to access it. atrophy as a result of inattention and neglect. This has Secondly, how do the Government plan to ensure not been for lack of announcements, speeches or data; that local SME voices are heard and not overpowered it is more to do with an inexplicable failure to follow by larger employers, which typically find it easier to through, fund and deliver. This Bill, if enacted with meet expectations from Government? Over 80% of the imagination and commitment, could prove a watershed. UK economy is driven by the service sector, which is If the Government are serious about levelling up, they dominated by small and medium-sized employers. SMEs can be credited for at least giving themselves the play a central role in levelling up, as they are typically legislative opportunity to prove it. more likely to employ those from disadvantaged groups The Bill has the potential to become a vehicle for with lower employment chances. This lies behind broadening and deepening apprenticeship schemes, Wakefield Council’slaunch, in March, of its new strategy for example by taking account of the mobility of to become a “Learning City and District”, one of the freelance employment, but that should be the beginning four pillars of which is to: of its ambition, not the end of it. While I broadly “Provide an inclusive jobs market for residents to find and agree with the employer-led concept, a potential Catch-22 sustain well paid employment, by ensuring access to learning is situation needs to be considered, whereby established available for all levels and to all ages with increased participation incumbents find themselves favoured over those wishing from hard to reach/disadvantaged communities.” to take advantage of new business opportunities, most An employer-centred focus is crucial to the success especially in areas with diminishing growth prospects. of the skills reforms. However, equally crucial is the I am sure the extension of things such as maintenance development of longer-term thinking about the future provision, as a counterbalance to embedded regional skills needs of society. This means that meeting present inequalities, is something the Minister will want to touch perceived needs locally must be balanced by an on in her response. appreciation of longer-term changes in future skills While well-intentioned, I am concerned that this demand, particularly if we are to join up local and Bill and the White Paper on which it is based are national provision. nowhere near imaginative enough in their interpretation Thirdly, colleges play a vital role in providing for of what future employment patterns might look like. students with specific learning difficulties and disabilities. Regrettably, when it comes to implementation, we According to the Association of Colleges, such students invariably seem to find ourselves working from a 1805 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1806

[LORD PUTTNAM] made by the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, and I completely 10 year-old playbook. I cannot have been the only support what he said. In my view, ensuring a successful person dumbfounded that “creativity”, having featured partnership between further and higher education in the Secretary of State’sintroduction, failed to reappear represents exactly the type of approach that is needed in either the Bill or the Skills for Jobs White Paper that to make this legislation a success. I do not see this as a preceded it. When she responds, could the Minister political Bill so, given a thoughtful Committee stage please explain this omission or possibly tell me that I and a listening Government, we have the opportunity need my glasses tested? to send a valuable and uncontentious piece of legislation Creativity is an entirely sustainable asset—one the for ratification in another place. UK has proved to have in abundance. In my judgment, it will prove the great differentiator among ambitious, 3.08 pm competitive nations in the digital world. Surely it needs Lord Shipley (LD) [V]: My Lords, I thank the to be incorporated into every aspect of the way that Minister for her introduction to the Bill which, in we think about skills and training for the future. For many respects, I welcome very strongly. It has a sense example, far too little thought has been given to how of direction; the Government have clearly been listening we cultivate greater agility in the workforce by encouraging to the advice of employers and the education sector. I transferrable skills across sectors. The White Paper very much look forward to hearing shortly the maiden described the need to develop speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Black of Strome. “higher-level technical skills in Science, Technology, Engineering I cannot recall a time when there has not been and Maths”. a skills shortage or a skills crisis.This is inevitable because Of course, STEM and digital skills should be at the the needs of our economy are constantly changing. forefront of how we plan for the future, but they have However,there is a substantial difference today: the needs to walk hand in hand with creativity if we are serious of our labour market, post Brexit and post Covid, are about developing a truly successful economy. changing quickly. As an example, we do not have A good example of this thinking comes from Demis enough technicians or engineers, and there is a need to Hassabis, the founder of the AI company DeepMind. develop greater strength in digital skills at all levels. As He put it this way: a further example, the pandemic has resulted in a “Some of the most interesting areas of science are in the gaps reduction in the number of apprenticeships available. between … subjects… What I’ve tried to do in building DeepMind There are not enough generally, nor at degree level. is to find ‘glue people’, those who are world class in multiple The lifelong loan entitlement could be a boost to domains, who possess the creativity to find analogies and points both individuals and employers, but I hope that, as the of contact between different subjects. Generally speaking, when that happens, the magic happens.” noble Lord, Lord Bichard, said, the Government will not try to bolt it on to the current system of funding The successful growth of companies such as DeepMind and will instead make it part of a reformed system of should serve as a warning regarding the dangers of a financial support. The Government’s forthcoming purely employer-led focus, because history suggests consultation should reflect the fact that loans by themselves that incumbents are a lot less likely to spot where the may not be an attractive proposition to some adults, next big opportunity will come from. as indeed the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, pointed out a I find it unsurprising to learn that, in 2018, the US few minutes ago. NationalAcademiesof Sciences,Engineering,andMedicine Recent government policy towards the FE sector recommended that education in these subjects should and part-time higher education has led to both being include the humanities, arts, crafts and design. That treated as the poor relation of traditional academic recommendation has now been rolled out right across learning. Funding per student has been lower in FE North American universities. For example, 100% of for too long. There has been a very worrying drop in undergraduates at MIT, one of the world’s leading participation rates in part-time higher education in technical institutes, study the arts, humanities and recent years, caused by funding cuts and the HE loans social sciences. In fact, those subjects now account for system. It is vital that the silos between higher, further 25% of their overall class time. and adult education and apprenticeships are reduced. Collaboration between a variety of talents and Further education and higher education should not skills has to be the right way, possibly the only way, to have to compete against each other for resources. The ensure the success of a balanced competitive workforce— ambition should be a unified skills system with expansion the kind of workforce that the Bill seeks to create. of the FE sector, apprenticeships and part-time higher There will also be an overwhelming need for departmental education, with parity of esteem between these and collaboration. Can the Minister assure the House that traditional full-time, non-vocational academic routes. the transition of support from the DWP into this new I would like to make a point about progression skills framework will be made as uncomplicated as routes. I welcome national skills funding to help adults possible? It will need to be if the Government’slevelling-up have free access to level 3 qualifications through some ambitions are to be fully realised. 400 courses, but there is no mention of any qualifications Finally, on this vital issue of collaboration, the idea below level 3, yet it is these which promote progression that improved provision for further education can be to higher levels. Six million adults were identified in resourced only at the expense of higher education is to the Augur review as not having qualifications at level 2, totally misunderstand the challenges of the global yet the total number of adult learners has been falling economy. Far from being in competition for resources, in recent years. If we want people to reach level 3 and these two sectors should be encouraged to move in above, more of them need to achieve level 2. I wonder lock-step, as never before. This point was powerfully if the Government have a plan. 1807 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1808

The Government’s ambition to put employers at complex Gaelic, “Tomnahurich”. I am so very grateful the centre of skills development is welcome. But the to the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, and the noble test of the new approach will come in how effective the and learned Lord, Lord Judge, for their support and forecasting of future requirements is for industries guidance when introducing me to the workings of the that are in the early stages of development. Long-term House, and to my noble friend and mentor Lord Patel, investment in the green economy, for example, will who has always held my deepest respect and gratitude require new skills sets at all levels. As the Bill progresses for the kindness shown to me in the 15 years that we through the House, I hope we can examine whether have known each other. I recognise that I still have the Government are putting in place structures that much to learn from his vast experience in this House, will effectively identify skills needs five years and but I hope that I may contribute on matters within my 10 years ahead and how our education system as a domain, which might include science, justice, education, whole should adapt to deliver them. death and dying, anthropology, child protection and I spoke earlier of the lifelong loan entitlement, and forensic investigation. I understand that a consultation will start this summer, Many of our skills are transferred and learned from but secondary legislation can be expected only in those closest to us, whether they are family, friends, 2024, with implementation in 2025. Given the impact teachers or mentors, and we cannot predict which will of the pandemic, what is happening over the next four stand us in the best stead. Arguably, my most practical years to ensure that all those who need to access life skill was acquired at the age of 15, when I studied training can get it, in addition to meeting the needs of for an O-grade in secretarial studies. It was a class employers post Brexit? Does it have to take so long—four comprised exclusively of girls, who were all taught to years—to effect this change? touch type. I could never have predicted the benefits The lifelong loan entitlement may be a crucial part that an average of 95 words a minute would bring in of future plans, but a lot more detail is needed on the the digital world that now dominates our lives. extent of entitlements, on the funding of modular A second skills set was taught by my father when systems, on repayment terms, on whether modular preparing the rabbits, deer and pigeons that he would study will be permitted for all subject areas or just bring home for my mother to cook. It led me comfortably those defined by the Government, on whether students to my first job as a teenager, working in a butcher’s can get the same support for their costs irrespective of shop, and then to honing the dissection skills required their method of study,and on whether existing graduates by a human anatomist and to the practical skills and can use it to retrain. strong stomach required by a forensic anthropologist, Finally, I hope that we will take a close look at how whether working to identify the deceased in the aftermath local skills improvement plans will work in practice. It of the war crimes in Kosovo or processing the mass will not be the first time that such planning has been fatalities of the Asian tsunami. localised. That said, I wonder if the Government have a plan for bringing together the information from all A third skills set was developed in the meeting the local skills improvement plans to shape national rooms of the Women’s Institute, the Rotary and the workforce planning? It will be extremely important to Round Table, learning how to convey science to the do so. public in a manner that was concise yet understandable. This served me well in the UK and at the International The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) Criminal Court, where I have given evidence as an (LD): I welcome the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, expert witness to assist juries in their deliberations. Lady Black of Strome. My current role as Pro-Vice-Chancellor for Engagement at Lancaster University affords me the 3.14 pm great pleasure of working closely with our further Baroness Black of Strome (CB) (Maiden Speech): education colleges, universities and civic partners, to My Lords, it is a great honour to have been appointed embed the value of education in our local and regional to your Lordships’ House and to speak here today for communities. Operating as we do in an area of multiple the first time. I draw the attention of the House to my deprivation, the partners are acutely aware that the current employment in higher education. I am sure lifelong acquisition of skills is critical to the development that most noble Lords will remember only too clearly and future workforce placement of our young people. how they felt in those first few days and how grateful I am supportive of this Bill in raising and promoting they were for the generosity of spirit shown to them by the quality and place-based relevance of post-16 skills others. That paying forward of grace is a testament to provision, although I inwardly flinch at the partitioning the strength of community in this House and its all- of education into traditional age and sector-based embracing welcome, and I am both grateful and humbled silos. In my experience, education can be an effective to be a beneficiary. route out of poverty, but it requires all parts of the There are so many who deserve my unreserved ecosystem to work in progressive collaboration. We thanks for their kindness, from the justifiably legendary sometimes forget that our life habits and ambitions doorkeepers to the police officers and Black Rod, and may be hard-wired long before we even enter secondary indeed all staff and departments—including those in school, yet the discussions about “workplace” and digital services, who have been unbelievably patient “skills set”still come towards the end of that educational with the shortcomings of this technological dinosaur. pipeline. Perhaps that is too late to have any realistic I also wish to extend my thanks to Garter, who was hope of breaking the educational poverty cycle that somewhat relieved when I chose the simple “Strome” has become a generational and geographical norm for as my territorial designation, rather than the more many. 1809 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1810

[BARONESS BLACK OF STROME] knowledge and experience to this House and that we Perhaps I may share a brief example. The Morecambe will all benefit from hearing from her. She is most Bay Curriculum is a 25-year, educational, place-based welcome in your Lordships’ House and I congratulate community commitment. It is a civic collaboration her once more on her excellent maiden speech. between local residents, pre-school, every primary and On the Bill, I declare my interests as co-chair of the secondary school in the region, Lancaster & Morecambe APPG on Modern Languages and vice-president of College, the universities, the local city authority, the the Chartered Institute of Linguists, and I hope that NHS, the LEP, the chamber of commerce, businesses, the Government and employers will take advantage employers and the Eden Project North. Many young of the opportunities this Bill offers to act on what they people from this region come from homes with no know about the importance of language skills—namely, prior experience of formal post-16 education and no that the UK’s deficit in foreign language skills damages experience of regular paid employment that leads to the economy and inhibits recruitment and employability skilled jobs. If we wish to break that cycle, we need to across all sectors and at all levels. Languages are not sow the seeds of change much earlier. just an academic discipline but a vital technical skill Children as young as five will undertake little work that can boost export growth and social mobility. experience placements with local businesses, developing Foreign language skills are in particularly high demand a sense of pride in both belonging, and contributing, in finance, IT, transport, fashion and hospitality. to their “place” while learning that each aspect of their There are marked regional disparities in the UK’s own educational journey can evolve seamlessly into skills base. Regional weaknesses in the take-up of the next. We aim through that programme to make foreign languages correlate with regions of poor post-16 education and the concept of a “skilled job” productivity and low skill levels. In the north-east in the norm. 2016, for example, only 43% of pupils sat a GCSE in a The role of early intervention in the success of the language, compared with 65% in inner London, and uptake of skills-based learning, its translation into the this gap has been widening year on year. Employers local workforce and then into regional economic growth say that they are unhappy with the foreign language and regeneration requires sustained commitment from skills of school leavers and graduates in the UK and all component parts. It will take the combined will of are increasingly forced to recruit from overseas to a joined-up community ecosystem to break the current meet their needs. If the Government are serious about cycle and educate those young people into skilled jobs. social mobility and levelling up, a boost to language I would simply request that, as we progress this Bill skills would be a jolly good place to start. and focus, as we inevitably will, on a particular sector We need the business community to step up and be of our education system, we are mindful of changes very clear when it comes to its input in shaping the that may need to be effected elsewhere if we are to new local skills improvement plans to insist that language maximise success. We will all benefit from a holistic skills are needed and must be included. Research suggests approach, because strength and success lie with all our that the UK economy is losing out on well over educational components working together seamlessly £50 billion a year in lost contracts because of a lack of as an ecosystem—not just the colleges in isolation, but language skills in the workforce. Viridian Solar, an in genuine partnership with the schools and the universities. SME based in Cambridgeshire that makes solar roofs, In conclusion, it is an honour and a privilege to be a told me: Member of this House and to be permitted to participate “Foreign language skills are important” in its work. for “global export growth.” Another Cambridge company, i-Teams, helps the 3.21 pm next generation of science-based entrepreneurs develop Baroness Coussins (CB): My Lords, it is a huge business skills and has so far helped 90 start-ups. pleasure to follow such an outstanding maiden speech Its founder told me that by my noble friend Lady Black of Strome. I am sure “language skills are a key advantage” that all noble Lords will, like me, be in awe of her and said that innovators distinguished career and achievements. As a forensic “need to be able to communicate both through language and anthropologist she has pioneered techniques of human across cultures. It cannot be assumed that all the people with identification both in the UK and worldwide which whom they must work … can speak English.” have helped bring people to justice. In the UK, her And Alchemie, a large company specialising in sustainable work on the sexual abuse of children marked a step technology for dyeing fabrics, has found: change in the ability of the criminal justice system to “Language and cultural knowledge is very important to Alchemie identify paedophilia, and internationally, her work in in its expansion into China. A basic knowledge of Chinese for Kosovo after the atrocities there, in Thailand after the business purposes would be really useful for staff members. tsunami and in Iraq have brought her work worldwide Further training or coaching in that is really important.” renown. New research released only last month by Aston Glancing through her illustrious career, I have to Business School confirmed that language skills are a say that I was pleased to discover one small thing we key driver for SME export success, revealing that firms had in common: we both took Saturday jobs at the age making use of language capabilities are 30% more of 12. I was a humble shelf stacker but, as we have successful in exporting than those that do not. Export heard, my noble friend had the foresight to get a job in sales, growth and profits are all significantly increased a butcher’s shop, where she clearly learned things that by hiring people with language skills and cultural would be useful in her later career in forensic anatomy. intelligence, language training for existing staff and I know that my noble friend will bring her insight, investing in professional translation services. 1811 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1812

Employers’ organisations and sector groups are flexibility into our student funding system. However, I also on board. The CBI’s chief UK policy director has have some concern that the Treasury may water down said that better foreign language skills are the rocket fuel of the promised skills revolution. A “critical to increasing the UK’s global competitiveness and to number of noble Lords have already hinted at where ensuring young people have the high level of cultural awareness this might arise. One of my concerns is around the that supports a successful career.” rigidity of the current system that prevents people The tourism sector trade association UKinbound asked from studying at an equivalent or lower level than an its members what barriers they faced when recruiting award that they already have, as the noble Lord, Lord a British national and 60% responded Puttnam, said in his excellent speech. To my mind, “insufficient skills for the role”, that makes a nonsense of the lifelong loan entitlement. including foreign language skills. Some 23% of I appreciate that the Government are consulting on it. respondents to a British Chambers of Commerce survey I hope that the results of that consultation come out said that German and Mandarin will be important to the right way, because if we stick to it, it will prevent their business in the next five years, and 20% said people from reskilling effectively. French and Spanish. The BCC says the extent of our My other area of concern is around what I see as languages deficit is sobering, with the biggest language the Treasury’s persistently flawed conception of how barriers in the fastest-growing markets. It wants to see to measure value for money in post-16 education. The commercial export skills at the heart of business education idea that you can measure the worth of a course by the in both further and higher education, with fully integrated proportion of the student loan that ends up being foreign language skills as part of that, as well as in repaid is far too reductive. If we stick with it, it will schools and workplace training. stop us from properly funding what are socially useful and valuable but lower-earning professions and paths Finally, the Bill refers to FE colleges, but local skills in life. We already see hints that this is the prevailing improvement plans should also seek to build links view and that it will continue to be the prevailing view withuniversity-basedtrainingopportunities,anduniversity in the list of some 400 qualifications that are eligible language centres rather than modern language faculties for funding in the lifetime skills guarantee. That list of are the best place to make connections with community 400 qualifications is still too restrictive. As far as I can colleges. So will the Minister ensure that no regional see, it does not include any creative arts courses, for language skills gaps remain as a result of the new example. improvement plans and say what, if any, oversight or indeed override the DfE will have to correct any such My concern, as this Bill makes its way through this gaps? Are the Government prepared to provide leadership place and the other place, is that when the section and encouragement to local business communities to lands on the new student finance system, the Treasury follow through on all the surveys, research and sector uses this legislation’s fine print to further defund those examples I have quoted today, perhaps by using the areas of provision that have lower rates of repayment power the Bill will give the Government to issue associated with them, through a mix of potential policy guidance to support the development of the plans in tools, including student number controls by subject, order to ensure a place for language skills? Will the higher minimum entry requirements by subject and a Minister also spell out how the DfE will be working variety of others, most notably the potential for much with BEIS on this, given that department’s international lower fee levels for those courses. remit and extensive networks, and experience of language Those are all big risks as this Bill makes its way skills? I very much look forward to her reply to this through this place. I would appreciate any reassurance and my other questions. that the Minister can give on that front. I am particularly concerned about what it would do for the provision of 3.29 pm creative education courses. It is highly likely that, if we go down that path and defund courses on that basis, it Lord Johnson of Marylebone (Con): My Lords, I will starve the supply of talent into some of our most too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Black of promising industries as an economy—performing arts, Strome, on her extraordinarily fine maiden speech. I creative design, creative computing, music technology, am looking forward to learning a lot from her in a lot music performance and so on. That would be a sad of different areas. outcome for us as a society and it would also be an I too welcome this Bill. It is an important bit of economic nonsense. These were industries that were legislation, possibly the most important for the levelling-up growing at five times the rate of GDP before the crisis, agenda in this Parliament. I have a few reservations and we should not do them the disservice of starving and would appreciate reassurance on a couple of them of talent as we come out of it. points from the Minister. I declare my interest as a My sense is that if the Treasury wants to save visiting professor at King’s College London, a senior money, and I understand that it wants to invest money fellow at Harvard Kennedy School and chair of two in other areas or education systems to support catch-up private education companies Tes, and Access Creative elsewhere, which is entirely understandable, I recommend College, a provider of further education training for that it looks at lowering the repayment threshold on the creative industries. the student loan as a far more sensible source of much There is a huge amount to welcome in this Bill, but larger sums of money. The Higher Education Policy for me there are two features in particular: the lifelong Institute, for example, has calculated that lowering the loan allowance, which is being put on a statutory repayment threshold to just below £20,000 from the footing; and the introduction of modular funding, current level of £27,295 would save £3.8 billion and which a long-overdue reform that will bring valuable reduce the proportion of the student loan that is not 1813 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1814

[LORD JOHNSON OF MARYLEBONE] to know; some of us learn to do. Some of us learn best repaid to one-third, from current levels of over one-half. by observing and absorbing rather than by studying That seems a very sensible and more fruitful area of theories. Non-graduates are often more strategic in reform for the Treasury to look at. their thinking because they rely on what they can see Time is running out, but I welcome this Bill. It is a to understand and identify the problem that needs really important Bill. I congratulate the Minister and fixing for things to work better. Therefore, it is important the Secretary of State for bringing it to Parliament. I that we recognise the value from this difference to will certainly be supporting it. However, it is clearly achieving our collective goals if we are to see results something of a down payment on a much bigger set of which benefit all of us. changes that, ultimately, we will need if we are going The second trap we need to avoid is assuming that to have a joined-up system of post-16 education and anyone who follows a technical route is not ambitious, skills. We have a rather bewildering array of regulatory or to dismiss as unimportant what some people might and funding bodies out there in the landscape: the see as modest ambition because it does not involve OfS, the Education and Skills Funding Agency, the holding power over other people’s lives. We are all Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education, different. What is important in my mind is encouraging and so on. The time is surely coming, now that through pride and professionalism in doing a job well, whatever this Bill we are introducing much more flexible systems it is, and showing respect for that when we see it. of funding, for us to move to a joined-up system of The final trap is assuming that people who follow a regulation and funding for all post-16 education. technical route, or indeed anyone who does not have a degree, cannot become senior leaders in business, politics, 3.35 pm the public sector or anywhere else. We have to get out Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Non-Afl): My Lords, of this mindset that somehow leadership is all about like other noble Lords, I welcome this Bill and endorse knowledge—it is not. It is about being able to understand the Government’s decision to give technical education and see the bigger picture and to communicate in bold the profile and priority that it deserves. strokes. That does not come from having a degree; it Unlike other noble Lords contributing to today’s comes from experience, and a desire to engage and debate, this is not an area on which I am a policy expert, understand the world through the eyes of people who but I hope to make a relevant contribution as someone see it differently from us. who chose a technical education at the local FE college As one of your colleagues who is technically trained, after leaving school at 16, and who, armed with that who started out with modest ambitions and who has technical training, professional pride in my skills and grown in confidence and ability as I have gone from an aptitude and enthusiasm to keep learning on the job to job, I offer that perspective, with all due respect job as I progressed in my career, became Leader of to those who have followed a different path and those your Lordships’ House. I have had the great privilege who will be charged with implementing the results of of working for and alongside, and of being supported this legislation. In addition to what the legislation seeks by, some brilliant people with high academic credentials, to achieve in improving technical education, I hope that and together we have been an effective team. I endorse through our scrutiny and debates we as parliamentarians the plea of the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, not to create change our perception of the potential of those for new divisions or false distinctions between people who whom not going to university is the best route to their are talented and gifted. I feel I must put on record that own definition of success, and that we aim to achieve I love highly educated people. I am not looking to much greater diversity in positions of power. do anybody down here, least of all the noble Lord, Lord Willetts. 3.41 pm However,one of my concerns about the consequences Lord Blunkett (Lab): My Lords, I congratulate the of successive Governments prioritising university and noble Baroness, Lady Black. In this House, we always getting a degree as pretty much the only route to an enthusiastically congratulate those who have made increasingly narrow definition of success is the lack of their maiden speech. On this occasion I thought hers diversity in leadership roles across politics, Whitehall, was absolutely excellent, and I would like her to develop the public sector more broadly, business and the media. the origins of why she and I are technical dinosaurs— In other words, we have the rather conflicted situation because I am, and she declared her objection to technology now where those in positions of real power or influence, as well. regardless of where they may have started in life, have I strongly welcome the Bill, and the fact that the all followed the same university path and therefore Secretary of State and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary tend to define success in their own image. Therefore, have joined us. I welcome it because it shows a genuine while I welcome this Bill and applaud all that the commitment to further education, adult learning and Government are doing in this area to promote skills the development of the technical education and learning and further education colleges, those of us who make process for the future. I fear, however, in the very short decisions which affect everyone else still have work to time I have, that I am going to have to concentrate on do in how we think about technical education or those the things that worry me, rather than the things I am who do not go to university. enthusiastic about such as the lifelong guarantee, the As we consider this legislation and look beyond it, I commitment to professional development in further will highlight three big traps that we must avoid falling education and private providers. into.The first is seeing technical education as a consolation The reason I am concerned is that the opening prize for those who, in the minds of graduates, do not speech by the Minister highlighted divisions. She was have the potential to be like them. Some people learn clearly following the script, if I might put it that way, 1815 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1816 because she is not like that at all. The divisions that that they need at the time that they need it, and do so grew up five years ago on the back of the referendum on the basis that they will progress through life in very are almost embedded in our politics. The divide described different ways from where they started. this afternoon between town and city does not really exist. The divide between further and higher education 3.47 pm does not really exist. The divide between the academic Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, this is one of and technical does not really exist. I am very self-assured, those debate where I feel a degree of sympathy for the as you all know, so there are rarely times in my life Minister, not only because she was nice about me when I hear a speech and think I could not do better when she started speaking, but because she may acquire than that. This afternoon, however, the speech by the a sore neck from having to turn around to answer people noble Lord, Lord Willetts, was much better than the on her own Back Benches. one I am making. It made many of the points I would The noble Lord, Lord Willetts—he has clearly had have wished to have made. enough now and is running away; I could not resist that, Let me very quickly touch on my journey, as the sorry—set a very high bar for us. He also made many noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, touched on hers. I got of the points that I would have started with before my my qualifications at evening class and day release and main point here, which is about special educational eventually, after six years, went to university. I did a needs. The primary one is that we are going through vocational qualification on day release, and my A-levels part of a continuum, and that we are putting in place in the evening. I saw no difference between those; I artificial barriers for further and higher education. saw no reason why we should divide them. I see no That does not really work. Secondary school education reason why we should not be in favour of T-levels but cannot be seen as removed from this as well; it is part strongly in favour of retaining BTEC national diplomas, of a continuum. Where people start and how they go which got my eldest son to Liverpool University and through is affected. The original block of their educational later to a master’s degree. experience is going to affect the way they come through this. As my noble friend Lord Storey started by saying, I see no reason why we should not learn from our if they do not get better career guidance, they will own history. In metallurgy in Sheffield, it was the carry on with the same types of intervention, powers, factory worker and the researcher who put their heads hierarchies and activities they have always had, because together. Now we have advanced apprenticeships with that is the way you do it—that is the way you carry on. the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre at Sheffield No doubt that is an important factor. University; I should have declared my interest in it. We have the commitment of Sheffield Hallam University If we are to build up T-levels at levels 3, 4 and 5, with the Sheffield College and other colleges in South replacing the status this sort of thing had a few years Yorkshire, and Huddersfield University with Barnsley ago—or a few decades ago; I forget how old I am college of technology—where I once taught in further getting—we have to make sure that parents know they education, and where many people, like my elder sons, are career choices that will get people employed and got their education through FE. There is no divide: it make them a valid and interesting career, and we have is an artificial concept which I think is extremely to guide them through it. That will require real investment dangerous. Please do not let us go down that route. in those giving that advice. They have to be in the secondary schools, or in the initial phase that connection T-levels are one thing, and organising for people has to be made. It does not matter what is being given; will not go down one route for life is another. This is if something becomes a secondary option, it is downplayed why the appeal by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, in —end of. relation to what is happening with artificial intelligence To declare my interests, I am chairman of the and robotics is so important. These are not qualifications company Microlink, which deals with assistive technology. for life any more. There are no jobs for life. We need to I am president of the British Dyslexia Association. I return to learn on a continuing basis. I tried to instil am dyslexic and a user of assistive technology. I have this in the learning-age policy paper over 20 years ago not misspelled a word in years, but I have occasionally when I was Secretary of State, when we set up learning put the wrong one into many a message via voice and skills councils at local level that were designed to technology and then not checking it. Many here will engage employers,colleges and individuals.Unfortunately, have suffered hearing that, I am afraid. my own Government then centralised that and eventually If we are to get the best out of all our students, we killed it off. We have been around this road before. have to start dealing more coherently with special Some areas have very strong chambers and employer educational needs. At the moment we have a savage engagement. Some lack the capacity to do it. That is fight to get identification. Quite a while back, councils why what the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, said at the stopped putting £100 million a year into contesting beginning of this debate is so important—that we people who wanted to get education, health and care draw people together to be able to do the job well. plans. They lost 85% to 90% of those cases. We have a In the meantime, do not defund courses that are ridiculous system where the graduated approach we valuable to learners, do not claw back money from are supposed to be bringing in with the plans is not further education as is happening at the moment, and working. People are not getting identified because of do not defund or claw back money from residential the system. colleges such as Northern College in South Yorkshire. What the Bill can do for the majority of those with Instead, let us join together—because we can on the special educational needs is make sure that those with Bill—to make this a really exemplary piece of legislation. moderate needs or those who are not identified are Let us go forward in unity to offer people the education being picked up and offered the support that is easily 1817 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1818

[LORD ADDINGTON] within it. I have little doubt that the noble Baroness available to them. Everybody’s phone, effectively, does will make a huge contribution to the House, and I voice recognition, so why do we not use voice recognition wish her well. as a perfectly valid way of getting through an English I declare my interests as Professor Emeritus at the test for those with dyslexia, dyspraxia or one of the University of Dundee and as a former Chancellor other conditions? It is established in our lives. But no: there. I support the principle of the Bill and congratulate someone who cannot do this has to take a spelling test. the Government on bringing the legislation. I am also I refer back to the hours I have inflicted on this pleased that the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, is House on the English test for apprenticeships. If you taking the Bill through your Lordships’ House. I say want to read all of it, then masochism is probably a this because I witnessed her passion for and commitment part of your life, but this is something we should be to improving the lives of disadvantaged young people adapting. There is a clause in the Bill on teacher training; through creating opportunities for education and skills we need to ensure that teachers can spot these conditions. training when she was a member of the House of Dyslexia is only one of the ones available: ADHD, Lords Select Committee on Social Mobility. dyspraxia, higher-functioning autism—they are all there, My comments mainly relate to the need for education and that is just neurodiversity. How are we going to in STEM subjects. The Bill sets out government plans spot these conditions for people where it is not an to produce a skills revolution and to introduce flexible absolute and who do not have the tiger parent to get it loans, and a promise to strengthen jobs. The intention identified? Are we going to make sure that we can do is to drive up opportunities, reduce ethnic disparities this to get these people through the system? and narrow pay gaps, all of which is welcome. We have a model to support this for level 4 and 5 Simply offering more further education and training qualifications requiring independent skill. It is called courses alone will not deliver on the levelling-up agenda. the disabled students’ allowance, and it has all the Young people need clear advice and guidance on how institutions that go with higher education, such as to access courses, what it will cost them and what is on information capture—the sort of stuff we are doing offer. They will need to be able to see at first hand now, which is being recorded by people using this for what kind of jobs are available. Key to all this is the Hansard—which is now a given in higher education. need for high-quality careers advice for young people Most of the colleges that run higher education courses and adults—an area where the Bill has very little to will run through levels 4 and 5. Can we make sure they say, despite the acknowledgement in the Skills for Jobs are all integrated—it is not that big an ask—so that White Paper that careers provision is an important somebody who cannot take notes from a lecture given element of the overall education system. as part of a course is presented with the information EngineeringUK, together with seven other STEM they need to study? If it is in an electronic format, they and careers organisations, highlights this in its recent can get it into a verbal format. Voice to text and text to report, Securing the Future: STEM Careers Provision voice are very old hat now: how many people read in Schools and Colleges in England. It finds that schools books in the form of audiobooks? and colleges struggle to deliver STEM careers provision We are not asking for the world here. These sorts of to many of their young people. Time and funding are changes help, and they also help those who do not have cited as key barriers by careers leaders surveyed for these problems or are not on these spectrums. Can we the report, with 70% saying that staff time was an issue make sure that this is integrated into our approach? If and 46% saying lack of funding was a barrier. it is not, we will make life needlessly difficult. Please The report also finds that the digital divide that has let us not get sucked into the idea that only higher affected young people’s learning throughout the United needs need to be paid attention to, because that is a Kingdom since the start of the pandemic has also small group. It is those who are just failing and continue affected STEM careers activities in schools and colleges. to fail that we should be giving some thought to. The report found that 68% of schools with above average free school meals eligibility said that a lack of 3.54 pm access to technology and the internet was a barrier, Lord Patel (CB) [V]: My Lords, it is a pleasure to compared with 36% of schools with below average follow the noble Lord, Lord Addington. It is an enormous FSM. I hope that my noble friend Lady Lane-Fox pleasure to add my congratulations to my friend, the might say more regarding the digital divide following noble Baroness, Lady Black of Strome, on her brilliant her committee’s fantastic report on the subject. maiden speech. She is undoubtedly a world leader in Going back to a lack of careers advice, will the forensic science and its use in the criminal justice Government commit to publishing a fully funded careers system, and in forensic anthropology. I have known strategy alongside the Bill to help unlock the skills her for many years. “Tenacious” and “determined” are reforms in the Bill and build on the Skills for Jobs words I associate with her. She tried to recruit me once White Paper? It sets out the Government’s blueprint to help raise funds for a new mortuary in her department. for reshaping the technical skills system to better I declined, so she set up a competition between 10 crime support the needs of the local labour market and the writers: the first one to raise £1 million from their wider economy, with local skills improvement plans readers would have the mortuary named after her or being the key component. Clause 1 encapsulates the him. She raised over £2 million. Her newly unveiled Government’s plans to deliver on the above. With a portrait in the Scottish National Portrait Gallery in fast-evolving labour market, effective local skills planning Edinburgh will, I wager, become the most talked about is important to identify specific skill needs across the portrait among viewers for three reasons: its size—it is country,includingdemandforskillneedsintheengineering big—it’s title, “Unknown Man”, and the various images sector,the wider STEM-based industry and the economy. 1819 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1820

Real-time labour market data is important for ensuring need automation in the field and the packhouse because policy reforms to education and skills and emerging wecannolongerrelyonthisskilledworkforce.Whospeaks sector needs. I would welcome more clarity about how for these people? Who speaks for seasonal workers in the local skills improvement plans proposed in the Bill getting skills? That is why this Bill is important in will feed into national workforce planning, as has giving employers the opportunity to make sure that already been mentioned. How will DfE and BEIS they have these opportunities. work together to ensure a strategic approach to addressing I also have another interest in that I am the group the skills gap? How will information within local skills leader on the visitor economy section for the Midlands improvement plans help shape and inform national Engine APPG. This is another area in which seasonal industrial policy and workforce planning? How will work is very much the rule. Take the seaside strip of the Government use the reforms in the Bill to identify Lincolnshire—Skegness, Mablethorpe, Cleethorpes and and respond to low-density regional skills needs important that area—where as many as 40% of people are, in to the overall strategic direction of the UK, such as some way or another,employed in the seasonal economy specialised engineering skills? based on recreation and leisure. There is no harm in I realise that the Minister may not be able to answer that—there is nothing wrong in it—but we ought to all my questions today; she may agree to write. I look realise that they too need opportunities to train and to forward to the Committee stage of the Bill. find alternative out-of-season employment, which might well be to their advantage. Who speaks for them? I like 4 pm to think that at least I do so, here today. Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con): My Lords, I had a If we are to build back better, we need bricklayers, good education; what I have made of it is perhaps a plumbers and engineers—all the practical people whose different matter. Sixty years ago, I was taking my absence from our daily lives has only to be witnessed A-levels and S-levels. At 17, I left school and went to by anybody trying to get any construction work done work. I have said that I have no regrets about that, but in their home or factory. The need for training in these I would not recommend it. basic skills, which have largely been forgotten, is essential. It is perhaps relevant to agree with the delightful maiden speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Black of 4.07 pm Strome,regarding the great advantage my wife had—along with my noble friend Lady Stowell—in getting secretarial Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab): My Lords, I first skills. How I miss the ability to take shorthand and to join others in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady type. How I miss the digital tools that many noble Lords Black, on her maiden speech. Not only was it an feel embarrassed by not having to hand and that the excellent speech but she gave us a glimpse of her current generation has. But it will please the noble background, which is so fascinating that, had I been in Baroness, Lady Coussins, that I did go and work in charge, I could have let her go on for ages and listened Holland and learn Dutch. to more of it. I know it will be a very good background for the contributions she will make to our debates in I am a fan of this Bill. I am grateful to my noble future, and I wish her well. friend the Minister for introducing it and for us to be able to talk about it. It obviously derives from the I also join others in generally welcoming this Bill. A Skills for Jobs White Paper, and we all know that there lot of people have said that we have not done enough is—and I am not given to hyperbole—a real crisis in about skills before; that is why we welcome the Bill. skills in this country.It is having an effect on productivity We need to be really careful about this. We have tried in our industries and service industries, and at every to do a lot about skills, but we have never got it level. right—there is a big difference. Over the last 30 years, In my view, localism is the key, and the Bill draws 70 pieces of legislation or government interventions on that. Weknow that resources for further and technical have tried to make our skills provision and training education vary enormously at local level. I believe that better than they are. Anyone here who was a Minister the employer-led LSIPs are an important factor in would possibly say, as I do when I look back on my addressing this problem, and I disagree with the noble time in office, that they are not satisfied with what was Baroness, Lady Wilcox of Newport—I am sorry to see able to be done on the skills agenda. Doing something that she is leaving the Chamber at this moment, as I for the first time is good but it is different from trying disagree with her. I believe that employers will guarantee to get it right this time. That is how I will approach my that the resources, the buildings and the trainers and contributions to this issue as we go through. teachers are in the right place. This whole strategy will Two things have been done wrong in the past, and have a huge benefit from employer participation in they were referred to by my noble friend Lord Puttnam. deliberating on the employment of assets. One is a lack of persistence: Governments have started Perhaps I can deal with practical aspects of the Bill; along this track, then dropped it. Secondly, it has I will concentrate on my own experience as an employer. never been a priority for money; they have given some It will not surprise noble Lords—knowing that I am a money but never enough, and lessons can be learned horticulturalist and a farmer in intensive horticultural there as well. production—to learn that many people working in I want to say briefly—this has been touched on by that industry, in both the field and the packhouse, are my noble friend Lord Puttnam and the noble Lord, seasonal workers. The whole business of Brexit has Lord Johnson—that the division between creative and revealed the flaw in this strategy and the need for a technical is a false one. If ever in our history there was skills base in horticulture and intensive agriculture. a time when we could separate creative subjects and We need skills training and skilled workers, and we the humanities from technical subjects and the sciences, 1821 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1822

[BARONESS MORRIS OF YARDLEY] I know that having too many people in the driving it is not now. We need to drop that language and those seat can lead us nowhere; I understand that, and that thoughts, because success will lie with the people who leadership is important. But we want partnership with can bring those things together. That goes to the a purpose in which everyone has a role and a responsibility, argument about the lifelong loan entitlement, which I and everybody needs to be held accountable in that. broadly welcome. I have two questions on that. The How we write that into the detail of the Bill will be first is that I am not sure for which subjects the grant vital in making sure that the wish across this House will be available. I hope it will not exclude creative for the Bill to be a success comes to fruition. subjects, because that would not be good for the agenda before us. 4.13 pm I welcome modular learning with some caution: it Baroness Janke (LD) [V]: I too offer my congratulations is not as easy to organise or do as linear learning. to the noble Baroness, Lady Black, on her impressive Something we have done wrong in the past with vocational and extremely entertaining maiden speech. I am sure studies is to make it modular but not give students and that we are all looking forward to her contributions to learners the opportunity to link one module with the our work. other. The joins are where it goes wrong, so my advice Like other noble Lords, I welcome many of the to the Minister is: watch the joins and mind the gap. proposals in the Bill, particularly to make it easier for We have to make sure that people can move from one adults and young people to study more flexibly, allowing module to the other. them to space out their studies, transfer credits between I want to spend my time on the local skills improvement institutions and take up more part-time study. As the plans, which I gather are going to be called LSIPs, so noble Baroness, Lady Morris, has just said, the principle that is how I will refer to them. The Government have of colleges and employers working together underpins said that employers and businesses are at the centre of much of the Bill. It rests, too, on the leadership of the creation of local skills improvement plans. I cannot employers. My experience leads me to agree very much disagree with that; I cannot say that they should not with the issues she identified. Yet it is important that be at the centre or not be listened to. They are important, this is a co-operative and fully accountable partnership. but I am worried about how much emphasis the Will the Bill create a duty on schools and universities Government are placing upon the leadership of employers to collaborate with colleges and employers in the and businesses at the centre, at the heart, or in the development of skills plans, so that the training on driving seat of these LSIPs, depending on which words offer meets the needs of local areas and of the national you choose to use. Although they are important to this economic strategy? plan, so are others. As a former council leader, I have seen that the Learners are at the centre of what we want to do, as actual experience can be very patchy: stronger in some are providers and our locality and its needs. The local areas than others. In sectors where there are many economy in that area is also at the centre, and whoever SMEs the employers’ input can be limited, for a variety can guess what the skills of the future will be also of reasons. As the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, said, needs to be at the centre of these LSIPs. It is a more sometimes employers are not well represented by particular complicated Bill than just being about putting employers employer organisations which vary in strength in different and businesses in the driving seat. At the moment, I areas. There needs to be better accountability and am not sure that the Bill really recognises that complexity understanding of the difficulties involved. The present or gives some indication of which route the Government system gives no incentive for proper co-ordination. will wish to take. That is what the Committee and Instead, it focuses on delivery of qualifications rather Report stages will be about. I hope that we will have than on the long-term strategic priorities. the opportunity to flesh it out then. I would welcome a better understanding from the We are asking employers to become partners in the Minister as to how she sees this working. As the noble education process, and that is a big ask; it is not their Baroness, Lady Morris, also said, I am sure that we core job. It is not what they worry about in the middle will want to explore this area during the passage of the of the night or get up in the morning thinking about. Bill. I also emphasise that local authorities should be We are asking them to become educationalists while key players in any future collaboration. Many people they have other worries, especially now; they have face great difficulties in accessing education, whether other things to prioritise. I am not sure what happens part-time or full-time. They may be care leavers or and what powers the Government will have when it have special educational needs, as my noble friend goes wrong: when the businesses do not lead us in the Lord Addington mentioned, or not in education or right direction or take a back rather than a front seat. training. They may be long-term unemployed people. The challenge here is to get the partnership right They face difficult barriers and would need access to a between the providers and employers. I worry that the whole range of local services to help them to be ready Bill is written almost as a customer/provider relationship. for work or training. There is an invitation to employers to lead the show Local authorities are of course essential in providing and a legal obligation on the providers to provide the these sorts of services. They link with adult education learning courses. The Government will be taking a provision and other support, such as mental health, power to sack colleges or hit them over the head if housing, debt management, support for parents and they do not deliver on the local plans. It is not imaginative childcare. Their involvement will be essential to prevent or creative, or the sound basis for a meaningful those most in need of support and training being left partnership, so I want to look at that as we go through behind. As a former adult learning tutor, I know that the Bill. the role of local authorities in adult and community 1823 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1824 provision has been a bedrock, providing many adults 4.21 pm with opportunities to train and upskill. For many Baroness Morgan of Cotes (Con) [V]: My Lords, I adult learners, adult education is the first step that am very sorry that we have not been able to hear the they take. It gives them confidence and so often inspires chair of the Covid-19 Committee, the noble Baroness, people to take up further learning opportunities. The Lady Lane-Fox. I hope we will be able to hear her current budget has been halved; I very much support contribution at some point during this debate. theLGAproposaltoreinstatethisbudgetasafundamental building block in the provisions of the Bill. I draw the House’s attention to my role as a director of the Careers & Enterprise Company.I am also delighted It is also important that financial support is considered to be one of the FE ambassadors that my noble friend essential if poorer students are not to be penalised. the Minister mentioned earlier on. I congratulate the Flexible and part-time learning is essential for potential noble Baroness, Lady Black, on her excellent maiden learners. My own experience is that, although I went speech. I am entirely in agreement with her that one into higher education when I left school, I subsequently of the most useful skills I have ever been taught is to took a degree with the Open University. I experienced touch-type. for myself the great difficulties that one has in trying to keep up the commitment to learning while either I welcome the Bill, as other noble Lords have done, bringing up a family or working and needing to prioritise and also the White Paper on which it was based. It has earningaliving.Thesecanreallyunderminethemotivation confirmed and elevated the importance of further of people who are trying and gain qualifications or education, and it is a clear commitment not only to skills or, indeed, add a new dimension to their lives boost skills but to strengthen our economy and increase through study. I underline here the need to revisit the individual productivity. In the time available I will benefits system so that those acquiring new skills will focus on the involvement of employers in skills needs have their needs fully taken into account and not be and, if there is time, say a little bit about the lifelong excluded from benefits. learning entitlement. I also emphasise the importance of longer-term The involvement of employers in identifying skills strategic goals. Anyone involved in education over the needs, which is in Chapter 1 of the Bill, I entirely last 20 years has experienced constantly shifting grounds support—and there is wide support for this, as we in how the system operates, in its objectives, and in the have heard—the aim for there to be a more strategic local and national priorities. We need to recognise relationship between employers and further education some long-term objectives and ensure that our training and training providers. However, I have spoken to and education objectives and skills acquisition link Loughborough College locally, which is already working fully to the economic strategy and its requirements. In with more than 700 employers—and I am sure that recent years, many of us have found the unhelpful element many other colleges would say the same. So there is a of competition in post-16 provision counterproductive, feeling that perhaps what is being asked is not always with an overemphasis on delivering qualifications rather new but is being pulled together in one place for the than focusing on strategic and local long to medium-term first time. priorities. Other noble Lords have mentioned the local skills So I hope the Bill will ensure that the providers of improvement plans, which will obviously be very post-16 education and training are aligned and not important. But, as my noble friend the Minister said, preoccupied with short-term expediency and quick they are really only being piloted in certain areas now. fixes that do not really take us further forward. We I hope that I can prevail on her, and through her to the certainly welcome the Government’s interest and Secretary of State and to the skills Minister, that in the ambitions for skills and lifelong learning, in particular course of rolling out the local skills improvement the strong collaboration of cross-providers. The new partnerships, we should not undo what is already there. lifelong learning entitlement is a huge step forward, As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, said, careers education but there must be access to all, and we must address is of critical importance. It gives a strong underpinning the skills shortfall of so many citizens if we are to face to the Bill; although it is not mentioned in the Bill, it the challenges of the future. We support much of the was mentioned in the White Paper, where there was a content of this Bill and look forward to taking forward commitment to careers hubs.Careers hubs have improved these issues through its passage. careers provision by 92% in the two years since they Baroness Penn (Con): My Lords, it may be worth were started. They are a central plank of the White noting that the Back-Bench advisory limit of six minutes Paper, they are set up and delivered through the Careers per speaker will allow us to finish at around 8 pm this & Enterprise Company and they are designed to bring evening. together employers, schools, colleges, apprenticeship and training providers and others aligned to national The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) skills and local jobs. They have already established (Lab): The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox of Soho, is themselves as anchor institutions in local areas, not appearing remotely. We can see her but we cannot just as careers programmes in schools and colleges but hear her. also as the link with the local economic strategy, because they are tailored to be responsive to local Lord Cormack (Con): The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, economic need. is sorting her out. I hope that Ministers are aware that careers hubs The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) offer the Bill three things. The first is that they are the (Lab): We will go to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan key route for local businesses of all sizes into schools of Cotes. and colleges. I know from my time both as a local 1825 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1826

[BARONESS MORGAN OF COTES] The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) Member of Parliament and as Education Secretary (Lab): I hope that I can call the noble Baroness, Lady that that is often the missing link. Schools and colleges Lane-Fox of Soho. want to work with local employers and businesses but are unsure how to make those connections. I entirely 4.29 pm take the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, that those who run businesses are not Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (CB) [V]: The irony educationalists—but many of them obviously have a clearly weighs heavy when I have wi-fi issues. I apologise, great interest in working with young people and learners but the internet completely collapsed in my home—fingers locally. But again, bridging that gap into schools and crossed that it works this time. You would think that I colleges is often tricky, and that is where the careers would have been able to crack it, but I appreciate that hubs come into force. I am the least qualified person, perhaps, in many ways. The second way in which careers hubs can underpin I too commend the noble Baroness, Lady Black, on the Bill is by renewing the emphasis on vocational and her maiden speech. She is an absolute heroine to many technical learning and building the right level of skills of us. I can still see in my mind’s eye her visceral into our economy—hubs can be an enabler for these explanation of cutting into flesh for the first time, which reforms—and the third wayis by helping the Government’s may haunt me to my later days. In fact, she might have levelling-up agenda. So I am pleased to see that employers tempted me to swap careers had I not already become and providers are being directed to work with the a Member of your Lordships’ House. That is one Careers & Enterprise Company’s network and careers important dimension of this interesting and important hubs when establishing local skills improvement plans. Bill that I shall talk about as part of my role as chancellor Can the Minister say in her remarks at the end how the of the Open University. Government intend to keep careers hubs at the forefront As noble Lords will know,because many in the House of their thinking as they develop trail-blazing local today are graduates of the OU as well as honorary strategic improvement plans and roll them out across graduates—we even have a wonderful ex-chancellor in the country? the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, as well—the OU is the I turn briefly to the Bill’s definition of “employer largest university in the UK. It provides part-time representative bodies”. It would be helpful now—or learning through all people’s lives and careers. Perhaps certainly in Committee—for Ministers to explain who less known to people is the fact that 70% of OU they think the employer representative bodies are. learners are also in full-time work, which is why this This ties in with the future role of the LEPs and what Bill is so important in unlocking the relationship their responsibilities will be. Clause 2 of the Bill talks between work and vocational technical training and about an employer representative body as being between employers and study. “reasonably representative of the employers operating within the Furthermore, as I referenced in declaring my own specified area”. interest in perhaps changing careers, there are some “Reasonably representative”is very broad, and I wonder concerns from the Open University about the way in who will decide how the members of an employer which this is constructed—particularly, as the noble representative body are indeed reasonably representative. Lord, Lord Bichard, mentioned in his earlier remarks, there are concerns about the lifelong learning entitlement I also draw attention, as others have done, to the and how it is structured. The OU would be extremely local need point. Of course, exactly as my noble friend keen to see it structured in the most creative and the Minister said in her opening remarks, we want imaginative way possible to prevent too much rigidity people to stay in their local areas, to have jobs and to around learning requirements and to make sure that improve their prospects locally. There is also a need to we really allow for part-time learners who may be in identify future jobs—particularly in relation to future work who may want to go sideways in their career. It is technologies, for example, or industries such as the unclear yet to me whether, if I became a forensic growing industry around green jobs—and emerging anthropologist as a Member of the House of Lords, skills needs and to see those on a national level too. that would be down, up or sideways. But jokes apart, Again, I hope that the Minister will be able to clarify we must make sure that people are enabled to take how the local skills improvement plans feed into a sideways and forward leaps and, potentially, upgrade national overall skills strategy and how that is then their skills but slightly downgrade what might be seen communicated back to the colleges and providers. as their natural career prospects. The Open University Briefly, on lifelong learning entitlement, as others has concerns around the LLE requirement and how it have said, it seems somewhat confusing. We recognise is structured, and I would be very keen to hear the that many people will have several careers now. The Minister’s response on this. Bill is trying to address the long-held policy ambition Similarly,the OU, as will be known to many Members of helping people to reskill throughout their working of your Lordships’ House, has seen a collapse of more lives. A big argument advanced by the Association of than 67% in part-time learners—not just for the Open Colleges is that level 3 should also be eligible for the University but in those going into higher education lifelong loan entitlement. So can my noble friend say over the last decade. The Government themselves have what the process will be for determining which courses recognised that this is cataclysmic for our economy, will be eligible for the lifelong loan entitlement? and we must make sure that we build back the capacity We welcome this Bill across the House, I am sure, for part-time learning right at the heart of this Bill and and I hope that we will be able to enhance it as it goes put at the heart of it the importance of part-time through future stages. learners for the economy and wider society. 1827 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1828

I always joke in the OU degree ceremonies that excellent maiden speech in it. I remind noble Lords of part-time learners are no such thing at all. Normally, my interests in the register relating to education, they are double-time learners, holding down a family particularly my work with my clients, Purpose and and making sure that they also study. It can sometimes 01-Edu. take five or even 10 years but, in all my interactions There is of course much to welcome in this Bill but, with OU students, they have been people dedicated to sadly, as my noble friend Lord Blunkett said, time improving their learning through their career and the prevents me from dwelling on those elements. However, various ducks, dives, weaves and twists that life takes. it is welcome that the Government are prioritising We want to be clear at the Open University that this adult skills and to hear the Minister stress the need to Bill will represent part-time learners very clearly—and, focus on the needs of those not going on from school as I say, without too much rigidity about requirements, to university but going on to learn other skills. The particularly in Clauses 14, 15 and 17. I would be combination of globalisation, new technology and interested to hear the Minister’s response to that. climate change mitigation means continued rapid changes The Open University is one hat that I wear very in the demand for skills. The World Economic Forum proudly, and I am thrilled to be its chancellor and projects that almost half the skills needed for employees champion of all the types of learning that it represents. to work effectively will change in just the next four I have also recently chaired the House of Lords Select years—so deskilling is rampant. It is therefore the Committee on the long-term implications of Covid. urgent responsibility of every Government around the As other noble Lords have alluded to, particularly my world to transform their skills infrastructure so that it noble friend Lord Patel, we have done work recently to is highly flexible and to anticipate as well as react to look at the hybrid nature of our world right now. As the needs of the labour market, as the noble Lord, some noble Lords may know, I have a long-standing Lord Willetts, said. Skills policy is now as much about interest in digital skills and, surprise surprise, that changing in-work skills as it is about helping those at came out very clearly from our work. So I am pleased the start of their working lives, which appeared to be to see a recognition that we need these technical skills an assumption in the Minister’s opening speech. in this Bill, but I hope that it goes far enough and fast Here in the UK, decades of underfunding of an enough. overly complex skills system, persistent low productivity, As I think the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, very Brexit uncertainty, and widening regional prosperity articulately declared, we cannot design for the here gaps make an emphasis on this all the more important. and now; we need to look ahead to the next decade The Institute for the Future of Work’s recent report, and think about what those skills will constitute and The Amazonian Era, highlights recent trends, with look like. We have found consistently that not only is worker management platforms rapidly deskilling people, there a lack of skills right now for employers, there are from the warehouse floor to hollowing out supervisor also huge concerns among employers about what skills roles—deskilling by algorithm. Yet this Bill seems to will be available in the next decade to take on the assume that skills qualifications act like a ratchet and challenges that we have not yet even managed to that, once you have got a level 3, the only way is up, to quantify or think about. We in our committee report level 4 and beyond. But skills are not like a platform called for a closer partnership between government computer game moving up through the levels; they are and employers to tackle professional qualifications less Super Mario and more Snakes and Ladders. and digital skills to help, for example, a nurse or Personally,Iwouldadvocatethedevelopmentof individual anybody dealing with any kind of front-line service to skills accounts over the loan system advocated in this have a deeper understanding as part of their professional Bill, using a mix of funding from the Treasury,employers development. I hope that we take again an imaginative and individuals, rather than what is being proposed. and creative view of what that looks like. In my remaining time, I want to focus on the I end by reiterating the point made by my noble diverse needs of three very different groups: the deskilled, friend Lord Puttnam about Demis Hassabis and the the always reskilling, and the perennial professionals. importance of creativity and imagination. I am always On the deskilled, can the Minister confirm that the struck by the words of Sugata Mitra, the great tech local skills improvement plans will fully integrate with entrepreneur, who did a huge amount to open up welfare-to-work provision? In 2009, when I moved as learning and access, who said that learning is the new a Minister from the DfE to the DWP, I struggled to skill, and imagination, creation and asking questions get effective integration of skills and welfare policy— should be at the core of skill. We must bear that in perhaps my weakness. But one department measures mind as we take this Bill forward; we must not get too success in qualification outcomes while the other does stuck in rigid ways of thinking about skills, as they will so in job outcomes—and they work to very different shift immeasurably over the next decades. It may be timeframes. That has to be fixed through changes to best to equip people with the ability to ask questions the universal credit regime. that they want answered and equip them with the We also need an all-age careers advice service—and ability to personalise their studies through their whole I enjoyed the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan lifelong journey. —that aligns with a business advice service. For example, the move to a net-zero economy will create huge 4.35 pm opportunities as we transition to new ways of living in Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab) [V]: My Lords, our homes and at work. We will have new skills systems what a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady and businesses growing to meet those opportunities Lane-Fox, particularly in her last comments, as part of and anticipate these changes rather than just reacting what has been a really interesting debate, with an to them. The fact that Wrexham College only recently 1829 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1830

[LORD KNIGHT OF WEYMOUTH] I was a member of the Augar panel, which reported to became the first FE college to offer training in electric the review of post-18 education and funding, and I am vehicle maintenance is truly shocking. For this group—the also a professor at King’s College London. deskilled—the qualification ecosystem needs to be more I am delighted that the Government are introducing dynamic. this Bill. A system which offers all adult citizens the Then there are those sectors, especially in the digital chance to obtain high-quality education and training economy,that will always move too fast for qualifications is not just fundamental to our economy; it is central to keep up. I am currently working with Nicolas to our future as a country committed—I hope—to Sadirac and 01 Founders, which is opening its first opportunity, second chances, openness and making school in London later this year to train full stack the whole idea of shared citizenship a reality. I believe software engineers. This proven system does not charge that the measures incorporated in this Bill are an tuition fees, is a two-year course and has virtually a important step towards creating such a system. 100% employment rate at an average starting salary of I have argued for many years that our post-18 over £40,000. education and training system is indefensibly lopsided. This model—no prior attainment, applying by playing The gap in spending and the tension between higher an online game, no teachers and no qualifications—freaks education and vocational provision has widened and out policymakers because it explodes all the foundations become even more entrenched. But the Prime Minister of what we understand about good education, but last year announced reforms in which two concrete employers are desperate for this talent because it works. objectives were set. I think these are fundamental, and It has a highly dynamic curriculum and does not wait this Bill will contribute to meeting them. They are for qualifications to adjust to labour market demand. about the need to bring higher and further education What is this Bill doing to support more innovative closer together, and about tackling the great divide skills training like this, which is hardwired to deliver which has opened up between the well-resourced and the shortage skills we need to grow successfully across well-signposted opportunities for young people leaving the country? Does the Minister foresee funding skills school to go into full-time higher education, and the measured by job outcomes as well as qualification world of part-time and adult retraining—an area in outcomes? which we used to be global leaders. As other noble Finally, I must say something about the training of Lords have already pointed out, the last decades have professionals and here I will focus on teachers. The seen us go backwards in a way that it is vital we correct. Government are currently engaged in a review of initial teacher training. Last week they quietly published When the Augar review reported two years ago, the a document titled Delivering World-Class Teacher first recommendation we made was: Development, which does not mention universities once. “The government should introduce a single lifelong learning It is part of a move that appears to be one of statist loan allowance” centralisation where they want to control the content for adults. The Government accepted this and and method of teacher training to fit Ministers’judgments consequently are working quite hard to transform the on what is best. whole student higher education funding system. The This is a grotesque attack on the academic freedom clauses in this Bill are only part of what will be needed of universities that may destroy the very system supplying to deliver the new system, but they are fundamental teachers into our schools. It betrays a view that teaching foundation stones for what I hope—and I know other is little more than a craft skill, rather than a profession noble Lords also hope—will genuinely transform the that needs both continuous academic and practice-based system of higher and further education in this country development. Can the Minister reassure me, and the many in a way that will be good for everybody. ITT providers I am talking to through the All-Party As well as a very divided system of post-18 education, Parliamentary Group for the Teaching Profession, we have managed in this country to create an that there will always be a place for universities like extraordinarily complicated one. This is reflected in Oxford, UCL and Sunderland in teacher training? the Bill, which contains a number of specific reforms Our adult skills infrastructure must meet the needs of designed to clarify and simplify. In my remaining time, great professions like teaching, as well as traditional I would like to comment on two in particular: the trades and emerging jobs. In doing so, it must fully regulation of post-16 education and training providers, respect the role of academic vocational training. and the clauses which deal with education and training This is a really important Bill, but it is no more than for local needs. a start. I look forward to trying to help improve it and In 2017, along with other noble Lords, I was quite I hope that Ministers are listening to the real-world involved in the passage of the Technical and Further reality of change and reflecting that policy thinking Education Act, which included provisions to protect needs to change to take account of rapid deskilling students in the event of college failures. However, and the diversity of needs we all face. there were no equivalent provisions in the Act for independent training providers. The need to protect all 4.42 pm students, trainees and apprentices has been evident for Baroness Wolf of Dulwich (Non-Afl): My Lords, I a long time. While the independent training provider add my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady sector contains many truly excellent, innovative and Black, for a fantastic and fascinating maiden speech. effective organisations, that part of our system and its Secondly, I need to declare rather a list of interests. As overall reputation have been bedevilled by regular the noble Lord, Lord Storey, kindly pointed out, I failures and scandals. In 2017, the Government declared have become an adviser on skills to the Prime Minister. they were unwilling to amend the Act then and there 1831 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1832 but would consider the issue. The mills of government existing homes to make them fit for zero-carbon Britain grind slow, but they have considered, and what we now in 2050; none of that can happen without a flourishing have proposed is a single unified system of protection construction industry to deliver them. The ambition is for learners which I hope other noble Lords will join there, but the capacity is not. I hope that this Bill will me in welcoming. go some way toward bridging that gap. I will comment very briefly on the proposal to Construction faces a desperate workforce and skills create local skills improvement plans.These have attracted crisis. The Construction Industry Training Board says a lot of attention this afternoon and I look forward to that an extra 217,000 people will need to be recruited further comment and discussion. As many noble Lords in the next four years to deliver on the ambitious will be aware, our college network was in large part targets set before it. This is not about hod-carriers but created by local businesses and employers. Colleges about skilled tradespeople, professionals at all levels, therefore responded very directly to changing local and a range of completely new skills, some of which business needs because they talked all the time to your Lordships might never have heard of before. individual local employers. After the outflow of EU 27 workers from the industry Over the years, those organic links have in many post Brexit, we needed to at least double the output of places withered away. Of course, there are a number of new entrants simply to plug that gap. On top of that, fantastic colleges, but it is very much individual principals however,we also need to train for the new skills required and employers who make them as excellent and responsive to deliver zero-carbon homes and to retrofit 20 million as they are. Far too often, colleges—for very good reasons existing homes. We will need completely new roles, —spend most of their time and energy focusing on ranging from heat-pump installers and air-pressure their relationships with public funding bodies and not testers to retrofit co-ordinators and energy managers. with local employers. The White Paper’s fundamental Your Lordships may never have heard of those job goal of bringing employers right back in and making titles, but all of them were major bottlenecks in the this part of the infrastructure seems to be absolutely delivery of the ill-fated green homes grant fiasco last correct. winter. Now, the forthcoming building safety Bill will Clearly,just creating LSIPs is not going to revolutionise ratchetupanothershortage,thistimeof firesafetyengineers. everything; there are other important reforms in the I am indebted to the CITB for sharing figures that White Paper which will, for example, give colleges far show that, at present, about 100,000 people take up more autonomy. But putting employers in the system construction-related courses in the further education in a structured way—not via other public bodies where sector each year. The problem with that is that only members are selected and appointed centrally, but as a 24% directly enter the industry, while another 16% take group of local employers—is a necessary part of creating up construction-related apprenticeships. The remaining that responsive system we all need. 60% of further education construction starters do not It has been an enormous pleasure to speak today. I reach the construction workforce at all. It is even hope that the Bill and our discussions on it will take us worse than that, as many of those apprentice starters forward into a new era and we will look back on this do not finish their training, and by some accounts up as an important and major part of what this Government to half of them also leave the sector. Therefore, out of have done for the skills, education and future of this every 100 trainee starters in further education, only country. around 30 finish up working in the industry. And who exactly makes it through the training to 4.50 pm the workforce? Some 84% are men. The industry has Lord Stunell (LD) [V]: My Lords, I start by the most unequal gendered workforce in Britain, and congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Black, on her only 6% of that workforce is BAME, about half the outstanding maiden speech. I look forward very much national proportion. There is plenty of evidence of the to meeting her face-to-face very soon. industry’s consequential problems: low skills at every This country’s skills deficit is enormous, and it hits level of activity. The stark evidence emerging from the a wide range of sectors and industries. Despite periodic Grenfell Tower inquiry shows that it is not just a reforms, practically every employer in each sector says shortage of good bricklayers that is the problem but that those who complete their formal training are still capacity and competency from top to bottom. Poor not job ready. At the same time, there is a huge pool of productivity, consistently the worst of all our major people of all ages with ambition and drive who would industries, and very low investment in research and love to have the opportunity to develop their skills and innovation, leads to a depressing spiral of poor quality, transform their employment chances, and who are low profitability and multiple business failures. frustrated that there is no suitable route for them to I simply say to noble Lords that, in the construction follow. While I sincerely hope that this skills Bill will industry, there just has to be a total rethink of the succeed at last in joining up the supply and demand, training provision, and that should include but certainly noble Lords will perhaps forgive me if my hope is not not be limited to: who actually provides the training; entirely matched by my expectations. what that training is; who is going to foot the bill for I want to outline the dire gap that there is between the training; and how to make it attractive to young ambition and reality by its application to the construction BAME people and to women. Those questions have to industry. The construction industry is strategic for the be answered first by the Government. This skills Bill delivery of practically every government policy.Whether has to be the next step towards putting training in the it is free ports, new prisons, 300,000 homes a year, or industry, for the industry, at the top of the agenda. 40 new hospitals; whether it is a mighty levelling-up Otherwise, every other policy target and best wish of agenda, or simply the vital overhaul of 20 million the Government will certainly be missed. 1833 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1834

4.56 pm There are no engineering A-levels and very few technical Lord Baker of Dorking (Con) [V]: My Lords, I declare ones. Technical education between 16 and 18 barely my interest as chairman of the Baker Dearing trust. I exists because the courses are costly and the teachers have four comments on this Bill. First, I welcome its are few, so it is not surprising that many 18-year-olds proposals to create a skills plan for each town in the leave with no employability skills. No wonder that 16 country. Secondly, it has missed the opportunity to to 18 unemployment is now 14.4% and likely to rise. revolutionise digital skills, which are the weakest part Evidence presented to the Select Committee on of our present education system. Thirdly, I am very Youth Unemployment is that employers do not want concerned that this Bill could lead to the separation of just exam results but employability skills, such as technical education from academic education, a concern having worked in teams, made things with hands, shared by the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett. Fourthly, I designed things on computers and engaged in problem- will move an amendment to make the Baker clause a solving. They are looking for adaptability, creativity— statutory duty, rather than dependent upon ministerial which the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, mentioned earlier advice. today—and imagination. This will not happen if technical First, I am glad to see that skills plans will now and academic education are separated in two separate emerge for every town in England, reflecting the needs silos—one marked “technical and vocational” and the of the local medium and small-sized businesses. These other “academic”. What happens then to the parity of plans will reveal the skills that the FE colleges will esteem? The Government should act to ensure that need to teach. It will certainly put industry at the heart this educational apartheid does not come about. of education. This is exactly what university technical colleges have been doing for the last 10 years. The 5.01 pm governing body of a UTC is controlled by the local Baroness Greengross (CB) [V]: My Lords, I would businesses and the local university. The university like to start by congratulating the noble Baroness, comes in to teach, and the local businesses bring in Lady Black, on her interesting and fascinating maiden projects for the students to work on in teams. I thank speech, from which I personally learned a great deal, the Government for adopting the UTC principle of and, equally, by saying how proud I am to follow the combining technical and academic education. noble Lord, Lord Baker, because his ideas and what he Secondly, all the evidence that we are getting in the has achieved in education policy are also very interesting Select Committee on Youth Unemployment reveals and have taught me a great deal. that there is a dramatic shortage of digital skills. For many years, I have been heavily engaged in the Businesses, students and even the unemployed all say lifetime learning debate, which is increasingly important that they suffer from not having digital skills. In a because of the longevity of our population and the survey of 1,000 companies big and small, ranging impact that technology is having on employment. Added from nuclear to pubs, 76% said that they lack digital to this, we have just lived through a pandemic which skills, notably data analysis with AI, and this restricts has caused considerable disruption to the labour market, their growth and reduces their profits. We have also resulting in changes that are going to be very long-lasting. been sent evidence—and this I find totally surprising— I want to congratulate the Government on the that, since 2015, in schools for 11 to 16 year-olds, 40% reforms to post-16 education that this Bill seeks to fewer students are being taught about computing than implement. As the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has six years ago. That is a staggering statistic in the digital already outlined, this Bill will give employers greater age; it beggars belief. What the Government need to input into skills development and ensure that there is do is to provide all students with a laptop and an stronger regulation and consistency of qualifications. internet connection; computing should be taught from This Bill also responds to the current skills gap in the the age of 11 for at least one hour a week and that economy and places duties on education and training should grow each year. GCSE computing science should providers in specific areas to co-operate with designated be a compulsory subject. There are 75,000 computer employer representative bodies to develop, review and GCSE entries: it sounds a lot, but it is 1.5% of the revise plans. total and fewer than those who take Spanish GCSE. We live in a society where people are living longer This will need a revolution in teacher training, for all and a great many of us are working much later in life teachers should be expected to acquire digital skills. than previous generations were able to do. It is projected Thirdly, I fear that this Bill will separate technical that someone entering the workforce today will change education from academic education, so that there is careers five to seven times during their working life. virtually no connection between them when they should We know that many jobs may significantly change or be going hand-in-hand. At 16, school leavers can go to become obsolete because of technology change. It is FE colleges, start apprenticeships or go to a provider also likely that many children born this year will of technical education where their training will reflect eventually end up in careers that, at present, do not the needs of local employers, and that is good. However, exist. There needs to be significant investment in lifelong less than a quarter of young people who start at an FE learning and a fundamental rethink of the way we college at 16 will progress to level 4, a critical age deliver education. Our current school system, where where the skills gap really begins, and an insignificant compulsory education finishes at 16, increasingly does number will then start a higher or degree apprenticeship. not prepare pupils for modern life in a labour market Most students at 16 will stay on in the sixth forms that is changing so rapidly. In the future, we will need at their schools, and the heads of those schools will tell most people of working age to participate—perhaps them that the only way that they can get into university more than once and perhaps many times—in further is to stay in school and study academic A-Levels. education to keep up with labour market changes. 1835 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1836

It is, therefore, disappointing that in the last 10 years be allowed to continue. Elementary fairness requires there has been a 26% fall in the total number of people that we provide automatic funding for every qualified in England of all ages accessing undergraduate higher person, whether they go down the route to university education. This has been driven by a significant decline or the route through further education. in part-time higher education. Now, there are 67% This is the moment to make the change, because the fewer part-time undergraduate students in higher Government have, to their great credit, announced education than a decade ago. The Government have that they plan a lifetime skills guarantee, which provides acknowledged that this is a problem, and this Bill is an free education up to level 3, independent of age. The important start in trying to reverse this trend. guarantee would be a historic landmark if it were put However, in its current form, the Bill does not go in the Bill, which it has to be. But there needs to be a far enough in reforming our education sector. There is mechanism to make sure that the guarantee can be an opportunity to ensure that the education system implemented, because you cannot implement such a provides equal access and support for learners, regardless guarantee with the existing system of funding, which of where the learning takes place. Rather than creating has no mechanism for reflecting the demand from the a unified, credit-based funding system, the Bill creates students. separate funding systems for those who study module The Bill therefore needs two more clauses: one to by module compared to those who study a full degree. put the lifetime skills guarantee in law, and a second to Education of technical skills or qualifications should state that by, say, 2025, all colleges and other approved be given the same level of importance and respect, and providers should receive automatic in-year funding for there should be one funding system that does not any student covered by the lifetime skills guarantee. separate them. Our society needs people to gain degree That is my main proposal. qualifications, and it is crucial that the Government I will end on the subject of apprenticeships. In the do not undervalue our universities; apprenticeships year before Covid, nearly one-third of all 18 year-olds and other technical qualifications are different and were not in any form of education or work-based they teach different skills, but they are just as valuable training. That is amazing—what a disaster. In my view, and should be given equal status. most of them should have been on a level 2 or 3 In a world where an 18-year-old leaving school apprenticeship, or on a pre-apprenticeship course, but today will likely work well into their mid-70s, or even currently, there are simply not enough apprenticeship later, and where the labour market is likely to go places to meet the existing demand from young people. through significant change, investment in lifelong learning It is not a cultural problem; it is a problem with the is crucial. This Bill makes an important start, and I supply of places. Yet at the same time, half of all support what it aims to achieve. However, much more apprenticeship starts are not for young people but for needs to be done to support the lifelong learning peopleagedover25,manyof themlong-standingemployees education system that we are going to need in the future. getting top-up training that should be paid for by the I look forward to being a participant in this Bill, which employer. In addition, as the department’s own research aims to do just that. shows, the benefit-cost ratio for apprenticeships for thoseagedover25isbarelyhalf whatitisforapprenticeships 5.07 pm for those aged under 25. Lord Layard (Lab) [V]: My Lords, we should really Many more of our apprenticeships have to be directed welcome this Bill, because, as we know, our country at young people. In my view, the state’s prime duty in does a pretty good job with its graduates but a much education is to get every young person a proper start less good job with the other 50%. If we are looking for in life and a proper skill. Until we have done that, reasons for the difference in the treatment of these there should not be any apprenticeship money—or two, we should look immediately at the different ways nearly none—for the over-25s. At the very least, there in which they are funded. If you are going down the should be a legal requirement in the Bill that, by 2025, academic—the route to university—the funding no more than, say,one-quarter of apprenticeship funding automatically follows the student. Any sixth form or goes to people over 25. university, therefore, has total freedom to put on a This is a Bill with enormous potential to transform course and admit students, because it knows that if it people’s lives and to improve our economy, but I believe attracts students, they will be funded, student by student. that it needs at least three additional features. First, if This system has produced one of the most dynamic it is to mean anything, the lifetime skills guarantee learning systems in the world. The non-university should be in the law; secondly,there should be automatic route is totally different. The FE college or other provider in-year funding for every student exercising the lifetime has to contract, with the Education and Skills Funding skills guarantee; and, thirdly,there should be a maximum Agency, for its budget year by year. The total budget is limit of, say, one-quarter on the share of apprenticeship capped, and it is the Government, therefore—not the funding going to people over 25. I hope the Minister students or providers—who decide how many places will be able to consider and support these proposals. there are in the sector. Over the last 10 years, the result has been quite 5.13 pm extraordinary. In the 10 years before Covid, the further Baroness Sheehan (LD): My Lords, I add my education budget for people over 18 was cut, in real congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Black, on terms, by 50%. Even if you add in the funding for her excellent maiden speech. apprenticeships, the cut is over a third, while, at the I rise with some trepidation, as this is the first time same time, university funding has soared. The difference that I have spoken in an education debate. My reason is just incredible. This situation and this system cannot for doing so is to raise issues about what is not in the 1837 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1838

[BARONESS SHEEHAN] retraining and reskilling. Current policy plans mean Bill. Although the Minister mentioned the green revolution that workers transitioning out of high-carbon sectors in her opening remarks, she failed to note that there is who already possess level 3 qualifications would not not a whisper of reskilling to meet the challenge of be able to access the lifelong learning entitlement. climate change in the Bill itself. Maybe the lifetime skills guarantee level 3 entitlement Like others, I welcome the Bill. For far too long, could be put on a statutory footing and extended to lifelong learning has been seen as being a bit quirky. It include subsequent qualifications where relevant. must instead become an acknowledged norm. We The interrelated climate, biodiversity and Covid must make it easier for people to upskill or reskill, so challenges have intensified questions from students, that they can redirect their efforts to where there are teachers and parents about the purpose of education. going to be opportunities in future developments as The learning approaches and analytics they need and we reshape our economy to meet the challenges of the want are those that are necessary to tackle global and Covid-19 pandemic, climate change and threats to our local crises. This Bill is an opportunity to embed natural world. climate and sustainability aspects in both non-vocational This Bill should represent a pivotal moment for and vocational 16 to 19 provision, as well for older supporting UK efforts to move to a prosperous zero- adult learners. I hope that the Government, in later carbon economy and society.It could help with building stages of the Bill’s passage through your Lordships’ public understanding and confidence and the behaviour House, will address the green gap within it. change needed to meet net zero and to protect our finite natural resources. It could offer impetus for 5.18 pm green jobs and the competitiveness benefit that comes Baroness Wyld (Con): My Lords, I add my warm with them. However, it does none of those things. It is congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Black of silent on the massive skills shortages in sectors that Strome—I am in awe. I also slightly wish that I had will be crucial to building a greener economy. There is had my first job in a butcher’s shop, rather than no provision to embed climate and sustainability packaging up the pear drops in the newsagent, then I considerations into the post-16 framework, despite too could have been an international high-flyer. It was strong evidence from business, educators and learners a brilliant maiden speech. on the need to do so. I need to declare a few interests. I am a non-executive Given that there is unlikely to be further legislation board member at Ofsted, from August I will serve on in this area for some time, this Bill is where these gaps the Court of Newcastle University,and I had a temporary must be addressed. The Government are well aware of role on a committee at Ofqual towards the end of this, which makes it rather puzzling that there is a lack last year. of even a signalling of their intent to address how they I of course welcome this Bill. As it so happens, my will join up their strategy to achieve net zero with the dad was an FE lecturer in Tyneside until his retirement. planned reforms of the post-16 and skills system. I remember very well when I was growing up meeting The Government have a 10-point plan for a green some of his students. We would bump into them in industrial revolution, which highlights the opportunity town or they would come round and thank him. A lot to unlock hundreds of thousands of jobs in the transition of them had come to education later in life and would from a fossil-fuel-based economy to a more sustainable talk about how their confidence had been transformed, one—one that will support a just transition for workers. so I am particularly pleased to speak on this issue today. They have the Green Jobs Taskforce, set up jointly by In my own maiden speech four years ago, I said that BEIS and the Department for Education, whose remit the pace of the technological revolution meant that is to support the UK to transition to a net-zero the Government must use the tools they have to ensure economy and deliver a green recovery by developing that the labour market can adapt as nimbly as possible recommendations for an action plan for government, to an unprecedented pace of change. The Bill is certainly business, education institutions and trade unions to a step in the right direction, although there are areas support 2 million good-quality green jobs and the I want to probe. skills that will be needed by 2030. The taskforce finished The Government are clearly passionate in their its work in April this year and has not yet reported. determination to level up and to ensure that we see a How do the Government plan to incorporate the task tangible link between skills and retraining and local force’s findings? jobs, and there is a very clear rationale for the local skills Is it indeed the case that local skills improvement improvement plans. I agree that employers should be plans would be prepared without reference to strategic at the forefront of this. I am sure that my noble friend objectives such as the net-zero targets or the associated the Minister is aware that the pace of change in work- sector-specific strategies, such as the industrial places means that we must think beyond the immediate decarbonisation strategy, the transport decarbonisation jobs requirements of local employers, because we need strategy, the energy White Paper, the nature strategy to ensure a long-term employment market in which all and the heating and building strategy? Can the Minister can thrive according to their talent and hard work. reassure me that these crucial underpinnings of how It is with this in mind that I gently ask my noble we build back better—in the Government’sown words— friend whether she can reassure me that we are definitely will be taken into account in LSIPs? If so, how will going far enough to empower local communities. Voters that happen? across the UK have just given a big vote of confidence It is unclear how the Bill will offer support to in local leadership—for example, in re-electing local workers transitioning from industries such as oil and mayors. How will local leaders, with their in-depth gas, or to fossil fuel heating engineers who will require understanding of demographic trends, existing skills, 1839 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1840 market trends and local infrastructure, be involved in education sector and support outstanding teaching as the plans? Although I was unable to speak in the well as emphasising collaboration between employers Queen’s Speech debate, I read it all back, and several and education and training providers, with the provisos noble Lords across the House expressed concern at a made by my noble friend Lady Morris of Yardley. sense of “Whitehall knows best”. My noble friend Lastly, I welcome a Bill which seeks to correct the absolutely has my sympathy, as she knows—this is an injustice of considerable financial support for students age-old dilemma for Governments who want to grip in universities against negligible financial support for an agenda—but I would be grateful for some reassurance. students studying in FE colleges. Like others, I turn now to lifelong learning. The We undoubtedly have serious skills gaps compared Government are to be commended for the funding for to other OECD countries, with shortages of skilled level 3 qualifications, but I share concerns about those employees in many sectors and low levels of productivity. who could, in effect, be frozen out because they have This reflects too little investment by government and an existing qualification. Does this not contradict the employers in alternative qualifications to university principle of retraining? As far as the loan entitlement degrees. This has been particularly apparent in the last provided for in Part 1 is concerned—the Government decade, when the coalition Government and the can consult on it—again, in principle all is good. It is Conservative Government who followed them slashed absolutely right that we disrupt the status quo away further education, cutting colleges’ incomes by 50%. from a one-size-fits-all approach, but I want to be sure Having welcomed the aims of the Bill, I turn to as the Bill progresses that we really understand how some of its limitations. As a piece of legislation, it is gaining skills and/or retraining can work in practice, short on detail; it is a skeleton with too little flesh on it and do not make an assumption that policy and to allow us to understand how it will work in practice legislative change translates into easy decisions for, for in key areas. This perhaps explains the long timescale example, a cash-strapped, time-poor 45 year-old. for implementation, which will not be until 2024-25 There are lots of points on the detail that will need for core proposals. The Bill reads a bit like a work in to be worked through, but there are immediately some progress rather than the end of a detailed policy-making glaring questions which others have raised and I share approach culminating—rather than beginning—with concern about, particularly regarding the equivalent a piece of legislation. In a post-Covid world, action or lower qualification rules, which my noble friend will be needed urgently and cannot be delayed for four mentioned in her opening speech. Surely the pace of years. This is especially true of training and educational change we have discussed at some length today means support for the unemployed after furlough ends. that those with all sorts of qualifications will find As others have said, the Bill’s implementation is themselves in need of retraining; again, I go back to also dependent on a large injection of resources, both the need for a nimble system. in the short and the longer term. The Institute for More broadly, I support the Government’s optimistic Fiscal Studies has questioned whether these resources message on lifelong learning and retraining but, ultimately, will be forthcoming and whether detailed calculations it is not me they have to persuade. We do not need a of the costs entailed have been undertaken. What is huge leap of imagination to understand how daunting the total price of the Bill when implemented, and when the thought of taking on a loan in order to train or will the Government start injecting new resources? retrain can be to those who, through no fault of their Let me illustrate this with respect to FE colleges. own, have lost their job or have effectively been frozen Their funding has been insufficient. They need more, out of the jobs market as a result of childcare pressures and they need longer-term funding settlements. This or caring responsibilities.Therefore,I urge the Government much was recognised, as the Minister knows, in the and employers—because I do not think government White Paper. It becomes even more salient when their can or should solve every problem—to prioritise the funding is compared with that of schools and universities social infrastructure that will enable more people to —as my noble friend Lord Layard has already realise their ambitions and be part of a sustained recovery. mentioned—since they are much less well off in funding The Government acknowledge that the funding per student. Recent research by the IPPR found that and loans system is complex. The more complex the to keep up with demographic pressures and inflation, system, the greater the need for clearer signposting. over the last 10 years we would have had to invest There is a lot of work to be done to develop a consumer- £2.1 billion more per annum in adult skills and £2.7 billion friendly system, particularly for the hard to reach. We more in 16 to 19 year-olds in FE. The Government are talking about lifelong learning, so we need to must provide for future needs and redress the long- match that with a genuine understanding of the factors standing past underinvestment. Are the Government that affect decisions and resilience at every stage of committed to starting the process in the next spending life. But for all the challenges I have highlighted, I am review, and will they move to long-term, multiyear absolutely confident that there is a way through. I simplified funding? Without this, the colleges will not look forward to working with the Government, who be able to develop their curriculum and the range of have my full support as they take the Bill forward. courses needed to meet the outcomes of discussions with employers on local skills needs, nor will they be 5.24 pm able to pay the salaries needed to attract high-quality Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab): My Lords, I welcome lecturers to develop and teach new programmes. a Bill which focuses on lifelong learning and is committed I want to pick out one important area for new courses to enhancing skills among the many young and indeed that may not emerge from locally based identifications older people who do not go to university. I also of skills needs but requires a national scheme. This welcome a Bill which aims to enhance the further concernsthegreeneconomy.TheGovernment’scommitment 1841 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1842

[BARONESS BLACKSTONE] White Paper but are hugely important and provide to net-zero carbon emissions by 2050 requires a big exciting opportunities for those choosing a career. I shift to education and skills training to stall climate hope the Minister can provide reassurance on this change. The Bill is a lost opportunity as it fails to link point and, in doing so, give a definition of “local”. Is the Government’s goals on decarbonisation in energy, local a county or parish definition, or something else? transport, and buildings, sustainable land management The need to facilitate and encourage lifelong learning and carbon sequestration. Not only will those entering is vital; even more so as we emerge from the Covid the labour force for the first time need to be prepared experience, when many who have been furloughed or for green jobs, but many who currently work in fossil made redundant may have wished to retrain. A lifelong fuel sectors will need retraining. Why does the Bill loan entitlement is an interesting concept and we await make little or no reference to net zero? Should there the consultation with interest. However, to wait until not be a requirement for skills improvement plans to 2025 before this loan becomes available is regrettable. refer to national objectives on the green economy? In my view, we will miss an important window, when Lastly,I want to touch on the lifetime skills guarantee, such a facility would be very helpful. I hope that the on which the Government are still consulting. I am really Government have learned lessons from the student glad that the gist of the Augar report’s recommendations loan experience in determining the thresholds and on student support has been accepted, but the Government timetables for repayment. I support the comments of must provide more detail on eligibility, whatever the the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, in this respect. level or type of course the student is training in. I will now comment on the changes to the regulatory Who will be eligible in terms of the range of subjects? I framework proposed in the Bill. In my view, there is hope the range will be very wide and not narrow. They potential for significant confusion, as referenced by also need to consider,as others have said, how to support other Peers in this debate. Government support for the maintenance needs of students from disadvantaged vocational training and skills development, with T-levels backgrounds—or are the Government just going to et cetera, is very welcome. The ability of students to ignore this? There will be a great deal of work to be achieve degree-level qualifications as an alternative to done in Committee in this area and, I fear, in many attending university, with all its associated costs, must other areas too. be correct. There is, however, some concerning potential overlap among the regulatory bodies. The Bill must be 5.30 pm clear about the relevant roles of the Office for Students, Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB) [V]: My Lords, I too the Education and Skills Funding Agency, Ofqual welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Black of Strome, and the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical and congratulate her on an impressive maiden speech. Education—particularly the latter two bodies. Unless I very much welcome this Bill, as it is clearly appropriate I have misinterpreted the wording, it appears that the to revisit how current legislation is meeting the needs new roles envisaged would create a two-tier and rather of students, employees, potential employees and cumbersome regulatory approval system. The last thing employers, in a rapidly changing world. Let me declare we need is confusion, duplication and an additional my interests: I have been actively involved in encouraging load of bureaucracy. Within this new framework, it is the establishment of the institute for agriculture and essential that the authority of Ofqual and its accountability horticulture, TIAH, which is under way, to help improve to Parliament are not diluted. the image of the sector, provide signposting to quality- We also need to be aware of the administrative costs approved courses and CPD opportunities, and establish of regulatory oversight. I speak as a former chair of a national register. The support of Defra on this has the Regulatory Policy Committee. Every new or amended been very welcome. I am also a fellow of City & Guilds. regulator adds a new level of cost. The total cost of The key objectives of the Bill are laudable and very the suite of regulators in this space will be substantial. welcome. Putting employers at the heart of post-16 I fully appreciate the need for nationally recognised skills policy has been the intention of previous policies. industry standards. It is important that statutory control, That is easily stated but more difficult to apply in practice. as proposed in the Bill, particularly the role and influence To devolve responsibility to local level, to have local of the Secretary of State, does not lead to overcentralised skills improvement plans and employer representative control or inhibit competition on skills provision in bodies, must be the correct approach. What is unclear the marketplace. from the Bill is how this intention links to national I conclude by raising a concern about rural and skills priorities for each industry sector, how this relates land-based education. The Minister will be aware of to regional priorities—in particular, the involvement the deep concern in the north of England about the of local enterprise partnerships—and whether local proposed closure of Newton Rigg College in Cumbria. employer representative bodies to be designated by the The failure to find a solution so far, and the possible Secretary of State are intended to represent all industry loss of this geographically important college and its sectors within a given local area. unique role in serving the needs of the uplands sector, Too often in the past, employer representative bodies as well as woodland and forestry management, is, I have been dominated by large industrial employers hope, not a signal that the Government do not regard and new high-tech sectors regarded as sexy and attractive. rural as important. I left school aged 15 and the only Other sectors, which are crucial but fragmented and formal education I received afterwards was in characterised by SME employers, are sometimes not Northumberland, in what is now called a land-based recognised and therefore not included. This is particularly college, very similar to Newton Rigg. As it was for the true of the rural sector and agri-food businesses. They noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, this was through evening are not identified as sectors with skills gaps in the classes and day-release courses. 1843 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1844

As has been stressed a number of times today, we you cannot be master of your own unless you understand must ensure that young people and those who wish to others—and who showed the potential to be able to retrain are well informed on course availability,including take charge of important sites. Over the last 35 years rural, land-based and agricultural courses, and have since we founded this fellowship, we have chosen well every opportunity to choose a career as a consequence. over 100 mainly young men and women who have In the light of climate change, our net-zero ambitions, gone on to do all manner of things, including writing the importance of food security and opportunities notable books about the subject. within the rural economy, I hope the Government That is why I am so much in sympathy with my continue to regard this sector as important. I fully noble friend Lord Willetts when he talked about not support the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor having an artificial distinction between the academic of Holbeach, on the need for seasonal workers in the and the vocational. I am a great believer in vocation. I agricultural and horticultural sectors. consider that those of us in this place, and in the other place where I had the honour to serve for 40 years, are 5.37 pm following a vocation to public service. It is desperately Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, it is a great pleasure important that we encourage more and more young to take part in this debate. I begin, as many others people to realise that by working with their hands they have, by paying a tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady are also using their brains and helping to create or Black of Strome, who made a fascinating and somewhat preserve things of great beauty. gruesome maiden speech. I look forward to hearing I mentioned the other day, when we were we were her again on those subjects and in more detail. I long talking about the Environment Bill, the importance of for the day when this Chamber is full again, when we constructing buildings of quality today—I cited the can have a proper debate, without too many colleagues Prince of Wales on Poundbury—but the noble Lord, Zooming in. Lord Stunell, was right: there are not enough who have I will concentrate on one issue in particular, which mastered their crafts. I share the concerns of the noble is an aspect of the construction industry, about which Baroness, Lady Blackstone, about the delay in the the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, spoke with some passion implementation of aspects of the Bill, but I hope there and deep knowledge. I declare my interest as the will be a real emphasis on encouraging young people founder and chairman of the William Morris Craft to embrace real crafts and to help to create or preserve Fellowship programme and the first vice-president of those buildings of beauty in which the history of our the Heritage Crafts Association. country is embodied and will continue to be built. As many of your Lordships know, I am passionate about restoring buildings, particularly this one and 5.43 pm Lincoln Cathedral, which I look at from my home every Lord Liddle (Lab): My Lords, it is a pleasure as time I am back on the weekends or in recess. I am acutely always to follow one of the interesting speeches of the conscious that great buildings, such as this one, Lincoln noble Lord, Lord Cormack. However, on this occasion Cathedral and churches around the country—often it is an even greater pleasure to congratulate the noble focal points of their local communities—are in greater Baroness, Lady Black of Strome, on her maiden speech. danger than they have been for many a long year. It is I have a bit of history with her: her current position is partly a consequence of the pandemic: many churches pro-vice-chancellor for engagement at Lancaster have been shut for months and have deteriorated. University, and when I was chair of the council I—along Many are bat-infested, which is a real problem that I with others on the panel—appointed her. It was the have talked about in your Lordships’ House before. easiest appointment I have ever made in my life, and We owe these buildings to craftsmen and, more recently that does not reflect on the quality of the other to crafts men and women, through the ages. One applicants. Sue is tremendous and she will make a evening every month in Lincoln Cathedral, when we great contribution to this House. generally pray for those who have been benefactors or We are talking today about a very serious subject: achieved great things, we pray for the unknown by that of decades of public policy failure on Britain’s name who created that great building. It is the same part in education. We have made multiple efforts: the here and in every parish church in the country. technical schools of the 1944 Act that never happened; We founded the William Morris Craft Fellowship, the training boards that Labour established in the named after that great pioneer—also a great socialist, 1960s but were then thought unsatisfactory; and the but I will not talk about that—in the 19th century learning and skills councils established by my noble because of his dedication to the arts and proper friend Lord Blunkett but then abolished. There has restoration. We sought to find mainly young crafts been no stability of approach and no stable institutions, men and women around the country who showed and we have huge problems. enormous potential but who had all been through a I first came across this issue when I worked with my long apprenticeship. I say in parenthesis that one of noble friend Lord Mandelson at the Department for the things that disturbs me about the Bill is that it does Business, Innovation and Skills at the fag end of the not confront “apprenticeship” properly. The word has Labour Government. We suddenly realised, based on been too loosely used in recent years, even attached to the work of my noble friend Lord Sainsbury and his flower-arranging courses that last nine months—although Gatsby Foundation, that we were facing a real crisis in I say nothing against flower arranging. technicians: if we were not able to have sufficiently To master a craft is a long, arduous and challenging highly qualified technicians, how could we be a successful business. We were looking for those who had done so, economy working at the frontier of knowledge? We who had shown great interest in kindred crafts—because have heard today from the noble Lord, Lord Baker, 1845 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1846

[LORD LIDDLE] education, higher education and business. Strengthening about the lack of training in digital skills and computing. collaboration with business can help us to identify and Another worry is construction. This Government, rightly, respond to skills demands through providing short have huge ambitions for public investment—we are courses that support employment and provide a talent raising it from something like 2% to 4% of GDP—but pipeline for job creation. if we do not have the workers how are they going to For local skills improvement plans to be successful, fulfil those ambitions? they must leverage the input and strengths of businesses, I welcome the Bill. I would not say that the present along with further and higher education providers. Secretary of State for Education was one of the Partnerships between colleges and universities can Conservatives whom I most admire—I admire many build clear pathways for people to learn new skills and Conservatives, by the way—but I praise him for taking support employers to recruit and upskill their workforce up the cause of further education. I hope his efforts across the different stages of education and training. will have more success than the past decades of failure. Local strategies should complement the work of LEPs One of the most shocking things that I have learned and combined authorities in skills planning and harmonise in this debate is from my noble friend Lord Layard, the efforts of regional actors. A fragmented approach who had enormous influence over the policies of the across different geographies risks confusing employers Blair and Brown Governments, when he said that and leaving gaps in coverage. today we are in a situation where one-third of 18 year- The Government must go faster to support adult olds are not in any form of education or training. That learning, ahead of the introduction of the lifelong is a recipe for a low-pay, low-skill economy with loan entitlement. The CBI, of which I am president, in massive inequalities for decades to come. It is a recipe its Learning for Life report found that, by 2030, nine in for social disaster in the world of knowledge, advanced 10 people will need to upskill or retrain in order to technology, artificial intelligence and all that which we prevent skills gaps emerging in the UK. Covid-19 has are moving into. We have to do something about it. thrown this challenge into even sharper focus, with an The funding of lifelong learning, the introduction urgent need to respond to increasing unemployment. of modular courses and efforts to secure greater employer The introduction of a lifelong loan entitlement is a involvement are all admirable. However, there are a positive step to enable more adults to acquire the skills couple of matters about which I worry. First, I worry they need to flourish. However, the 2025 timeline that the whole approach is too centralised. I have always needs to be accelerated in order to support the reskilling been very sceptical of the Skills Funding Agency, that our economy demands. In the interim, the which holds the whole system in an iron grip and does Government should work with further education and not allow for local flexibility and initiative. I would like higher education providers to incentivise and upskill mayors and combined authorities working with employers through more flexible, modular and bite-sized courses. to develop skills improvement plans on a localised To build on the Bill and deliver on the priority of basis in England. Secondly, the education system needs boosting adult education, the national skills fund must collaboration, not polarisation. I saw this at Lancaster, also provide support for individuals facing the biggest a very good university, where we had a very good barriers to learning, thus supporting those with the partnership with Barrow’s college of further education greatest retraining needs. This will be essential to to train graduate engineers for the Vickers yard. mitigate the job displacement being caused by the Such collaboration between colleges and universities pandemic and will help the UK to seize the benefits of should be strengthened; we should not be trying to an increasingly digital and green economy. We need a force the systems apart. That is very important. I levelling-up of opportunity for people to build their worry that we are allowing ourselves to think that skills, but that will require significant business investment. university expansion has reached its limit. We in this Realising the Government’s ambitions for this Bill will country are supposed to admire places like Asia. Well, require fundamental levy reform. Addressing skills in places such as South Korea something like 70% of gaps in our economy and giving everyone access to the children are going to university, so do not let us have education and training they need will cost approximately any artificial limits. £130 billion over the next decade. That is what the CBI I shall make a final point. We must be prepared to has estimated. The Government must create the right put public money into this. We can make choices incentives to unlock business investment in every town, about it, but I think personally that my own party’s city and region. commitment to abolish tuition fees is ridiculous, given In its current form, the apprenticeship levy serves the amount of money that we have to spend on other as a barrier to investment in skills. It is distorting aspects of education. On the government side, the investment as firms try to make training fit awkwardly Conservatives have to recognise that further education into an apprenticeship. Many firms are also reticent and apprenticeships have been an area of massive about investing in further skills support until they underfunding. We need a joint commitment to create have spent their full levy fund. A flexible skills and stable institutions and to provide the funding that will training levy could unleash business investment in lead to a transformation in this field. both people and workplaces, and could capitalise on the increase in employer demand for the more modular, 5.51 pm skills-based provision that the Government are proud Lord Bilimoria (CB) [V]: My Lords, the Skills and of. Does the Minister agree with that? Post-16 Education Bill represents an opportunity to The Government have also taken steps to make it create a more agile and jobs-focused skills system that easier for employers to transfer funds to SMEs in their is underpinned by local collaboration between further supply chains. While levy payers are keen to help 1847 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1848 smaller firms invest in apprentices, that does not overcome equals academic. Universities are also proud to offer the wider challenges, including those faced by SMEs. vocational training and qualifications, whether that be The fundamental issue is that employers are being in filmmaking or engineering. forced to address all their training needs via the apprenticeship route, leading to most levy payers The Deputy Speaker (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB): underspending their pot of funds. We have reached an The noble Lord, Lord Flight, has withdrawn, so I call impasse with the Government, with the Department the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. for Education pointing the finger at Her Majesty’s Treasury. Will the noble Baroness the Minister clarify 5.57 pm the situation? The Open University has said clearly that the Bill is Baroness Whitaker (Lab): My Lords, I join in the a key opportunity to reverse the calamitous decline in congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Black of part-time students in higher education in England. I Strome, for a most interesting speech. I welcome this hope that the Minister will agree that it is essential that ambitious Bill and the lifetime skills guarantee, both this is not missed. I was proud to be the youngest for filling our skills gap and for the personal fulfilment university chancellor in the country at the time, from it offers for many who were ill-served by secondary 2005 to 2010 at the Thames Valley University, now the education or need to change direction. I declare interests University of West London. I saw at first hand the as a former chair and current fellow of the Working amazing number of mature and part-time learners, Men’s College, chair of the Department for Education’s but that has sadly declined hugely now. stakeholder group for Gypsy, Traveller and Roma education and other positions as listed in the register. I Professor John Holford, who was a fellow am also grateful for the extensive guidance sent to us commissioner on the Centenary Commission on Adult on the working of the new plans. Education that reported in November 2019, has made some really important points. He says that a Bill which While I very much support expanded provision of focuses on skills and productivity is important, but higher-level technical education, whose dearth has so post-16 education is also vital for many other reasons much impaired our competitiveness and domestic too. For example, it can help individuals and communities standards for so long, I want to focus on provision for who are struggling to counteract loneliness and isolation that large number who need a second chance by widening in the wake of Covid. We need to recognise the wider access to further education. educational role of the further education sector. The fact is that, in 2019, 34.1% of students—over Schools and universities celebrate learning for one-third—failed to get a standard pass at grade 4 in vocational qualifications, but they also teach philosophy, GCSE maths or English, the gateway to almost all ethics, art and music, which are the tools needed for forms of further education, and that is without counting active citizens. Further education alone is denied that the number who drop out of education long before the breadth. Educational breadth is needed so that adult GCSE years. The noble Baroness the Minister will be education can engage with those who are most in aware that many Gypsy and Traveller children do this need. Education has often not worked for them in the because of the relentless bullying and prejudice which past. They do not see education as a route to earning many schools seem unable to eradicate. I am indebted more. Adult education needs to be able to offer the to the Education Policy Institute and the excellent kind of learning that will enthuse and engage people. report, The Forgotten Third, for its analysis of the Does the Minister agree? Very often, this will build reasons for inadequate attainment. It shows the dismal their confidence so that they can go on to study further outcomes in unemployment and low-level crime for for a qualification to progress towards better work, this deplorably large proportion of our school students. improved health and well-being, along with other Needless to say, lack of innate ability does not feature. outcomes that benefit themselves and their communities. These are young people who are in the main capable of earning a living and making a contribution to society. This Bill offers no new support for students studying They need enhanced access to a second chance. below level 3. That pathway is vital to the post-16 So, I have a series of questions. How will lifelong educational landscape. Without adequate support in entitlement work for them? It seems to be available the adult education budget for lower-level qualifications, only for study at higher technical and degree level. many students will not be ready and able to take up How will skills acceleration and local skills improvement the level 3 offers that are included in the Bill. Does the plans work for them? In relation to the obligation on Minister agree with this? colleges and designated institutions to make regular The preparation of local skills improvement plans assessments of local needs, how will the colleges take must involve wide consultation not just with employers account of school dropouts and school leavers not but with professionals, including community adult equipped for available work? It should be said again education providers such as the institutes for adult that there is no evidence that these young people are learning, general further education colleges and local all lacking in intelligence, although some may have authority community adult learning representatives. limited aspirations. What account will the proposed In conclusion, I am proud to be chancellor of the government intervention process take of these factors? University of Birmingham. Earlier on, my fellow In principle, my points all concern access to vocational chancellor, the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, made such qualifications. The basic question is: what scope is an important point in this debate. Far too often, there for funded initial or foundation courses to enable people have a mindset that further education equals access to traineeships, apprenticeships and the rest of technical and vocational, while university education further education for non-achievers in English and 1849 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1850

[BARONESS WHITAKER] modern-day slavery simply because they lack language maths? What provision is there for tutoring and mentoring, skills. It is not good enough to have funding provided which are particularly important because of the Covid- to local authorities without clear evidence of how that related gaps in education, and how will careers advice funding provides tangible, measurable results. The and guidance on these and other access arrangements pandemic has shone a light on the fragility of communities be made available? According to the Traveller Movement, in their struggle to protect themselves from not just Gypsies and Irish Travellers in 2017-18 obtained only the pandemic but abuse. They lack access to educational 40 traineeships out of 17,700 and 180 apprenticeships tools and support for families in multigenerational out of 216,000. households. We need to address the poverty of learning. It is also important for improved teacher training to I say to my noble friend that these are deeply embedded, include the cultural backgrounds of students, including long-standing problems that have been ignored for the culture and heritage of that large group of minority decades. ethnic students, not least Gypsies, Travellers and Roma I will also touch on life skills and experiences. Like children, who appear prominently in the numbers many noble Lords, I have participated in educational failed by the system. There have been many incidents political surgeries with schools. I recently did one of ethnicity-based bullying and prejudice in the further with a high school in Gloucester. There, I was really education sector for those few Gypsies, Travellers and encouraged to hear the thoughtful and pragmatic Roma students who have surmounted the obstacles to approach students had to the world around them. The getting in, and it may be similar for other students key points that stuck in my mind included whether from minority ethnic backgrounds. Such training would focusing on exams at the end of a year was an outdated not only be just but would increase the effectiveness of approach to measuring a student’s potential. Some are teaching. The same applies to the Office for Students. great at sitting exams, but many are not. They want a What assurances can the Minister give us on that true reflection of their abilities to be measured, rather point? than just leaving it to the end of the year. Real life In conclusion, as it stands, this potentially useful does not exist in vacuums, so why should the student Bill has little to contribute to levelling up. It is rightly experience? aimed at strengthening the economy but misses the The students also wanted greater exposure to real-life opportunity to include the many who need, and deserve, skills such as financial literacy, budgets, and debt a fairer chance. management. I thank one particular student called Rose, who made the point so beautifully that I realised 6.03 pm how poorly qualified I had been when I left school to Baroness Verma (Con): My Lords, I join all noble manage the businesses I manage now.They were incredibly Lords in thanking my noble friend the Minster for the sensible and practical asks for those thinking about way she introduced this very important piece of legislation the future jobs market. today. I also join them in congratulating the noble Careers advice needs to be delivered by a combination Baroness, Lady Black of Strome, on her maiden speech. of factors,with technical, business and academic-informed The Bill highlights areas that in my view have for provision. This does not stop or start with young far too long not received the government attention people, but should be available for everyone. Employment that reflects their importance. If we are to be an will undoubtedly change many times over in our working outward-facing global country, the development of lifetimes, but people in their mid-40s upwards who skills permitted by the Bill will be critical. The key might lose their jobs because of the pandemic will areas that I want to address briefly today concern the need skills to meet the new and current requirements lifelong learning that should be available to all if we of the jobs market today and in the future. We cannot are to become that global, competitive country. There airbrush these groups out because they do not make a is no such thing as “a job for life” anymore. We live in loud noise. Their past experiences mean they need the a world where all jobs are expected to be fluid and new skills. I therefore urge my noble friend to make interchangeable, and to have technology and digital support easily accessible to these groups. Please do not skills at the centre of their roles. Whether it is in forget that we have a pool of people who will feel that construction or in the new emerging economy, our they have been left behind. future job roles will need all those skills, from basic Finally, let us celebrate alternative routes to top technology to intricate digital mapping and AI skills. jobs. Let us treat alternatives to degrees with parity. I Therefore, access to skills training and opportunities have raised this in the House on many occasions: how to move across sectors will be critical for an agile and are the Government monitoring career progression quick-reacting economy such as ours. As others have across the Civil Service and Whitehall, where we see said, will my noble friend ensure that there are no less and less inclusion and diversity as we go higher up barriers to accessing new qualifications, even if people the organisation? Will my noble friend go back to have already benefited from entry-level qualifications? looking at the levelling-up agenda being not just for Lifelong learning must mean exactly that. Employment the private sector but for all sectors where education needs are changing at pace and we must not stop at and skills play a huge role, so we reach the large entry-level roles, as that in itself stops employment pockets of the population who remain on the edges of development. communities, without hope or help? Let this important I also place a strong emphasis on the importance of Bill be the real game-changer for those communities language skills. So many times we hear of people from with untapped potential, such as those in my city of minority communities being exploited in poorly paid Leicester, that will need ongoing support, particularly roles or, sadly, in some instances being subject to after the pandemic. 1851 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1852

6.09 pm The cost of fees is only part of the issue when it comes to securing greater numbers of adult learners Lord Bradley (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I join in the through further and higher education. We know that congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Black of mature students are more debt-averse and cost-conscious Strome, on her excellent maiden speech. I declare my than maybe school and college leavers. We have seen interests in the register, particularly my position as this in the sharp decline in mature students, following chair of council at the University of Salford. I am the raising of tuition fees and the ending of maintenance particularly interested in the provisions in the Bill in grants in recent years. Alongside the lifelong learning respect of bringing together the higher and further entitlement, the Government need to consider what education sectors, and providing greater parity of esteem maintenance and cost of living support can be provided, between the various routes, academic and vocational, especially for adult learners who might have to reduce that one can travel down to secure a quality job. That their hours to enable them to work and study part-time, blurring of the lines between academic and technical and for a block period of shorter time-intensive courses. education is at the heart of the University of Salford’s Again, I would welcome a response from the Minister mission. Its founding institution was the Royal Technical on that today. Institute of Salford, which was established in 1896 to I quickly turn to the second matter, the OfS. I have train the workforce of the industrial revolutions. grave concerns about the Government’s plan to allow Over 125 years later, the university is dedicated to the OfS to set minimum baselines on quality that do powering the fourth industrial revolution. Today, not have regard to students’ background, institution academics are working hand in glove with employers, type, subject or location. This move seems at odds both public sector and private sector, to transform with the aspiration to level up access to education and higher education. The university offers industry-focused training. It could well also have unintended consequences. degrees, designed with employers and with real-world There is a real risk that universities will be disincentivised experience baked in from day one, alongside new from increasing access to further and higher education routes such as higher and degree apprenticeships. It is to those from the most disadvantaged backgrounds this legacy that the university is now building on, with and from introducing more flexible modes of study. its ambitions to develop an institute of technology. I conclude with another word of caution to the This innovatory project will bring together,in partnership, Government on the Bill. Where collaboration is already employees and further education colleges across Greater taking place in local areas between many local actors— Manchester, to offer a range of level 4 and 5 courses, including colleges, schools, universities, businesses, local higher technical qualifications across digital, engineering government, the NHS, elected mayors and combined and data, to plug the missing middle skills gap that we authorities, as we have in Greater Manchester—support know employers are so desperately crying out for. it to flourish. In my area at the University of Salford, Turning to the legislation itself, I will focus on two we are already leading a consortium of employees and areas. Of course I welcome the principle of the lifelong colleges to develop new technical qualifications to loan entitlement. Access to funding for training and meet local skills needs. The university and college retraining throughout one’slife will be a critical foundation sector has already committed to working together. for any aspiration to build a vibrant economy after the Where structures are in place for joint working, do not coronavirus, However, despite the positive mood music seek to replace them for the sake of it. Work with on the lifelong loan entitlement, the Government are those places to deepen and enhance those structures, leaving us hanging on for the detail. I look forward to recognising the unique needs, strengths and challenges seeing the specifics in due course, but I would like to of individual places. outline two broad principles that I hope the Government will keep in mind when they decide this funding scheme, 6.16 pm and perhaps they will respond to them today. The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con): My Lords, I warmly First, parity of esteem between further education welcome the Bill, which I believe is absolutely key to and higher education cannot be achieved by simply the recovery of our industrial and commercial base increasing the funding going to further education at post Covid and post Brexit. I join other noble Lords in the expense of higher education. Colleges and universities congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Black of Strome, working in partnership to deliver pathways that are on her maiden speech. I shall be very brief and make right for the individual learner is how we achieve their just a couple of observations. ambitions, not by promoting further competition between Last year, in a debate in your Lordships’ House on these parts of the education and skills sector, as colleges the economy, I flagged up the case of an exemplar and universities race to secure limited resources. The skills, training and retraining centre: the Marches funding system, along with the regulatory system, centre in Bridgnorth, Shropshire. It was experiencing across further and higher education needs to promote funding issues, and I tried to connect it with government. collaboration and co-operation, not competition. It is I was unable to obtain any real sort of response at all also worth stating that meeting our country’s economic from Treasury officials, so I advised the business that I aspirations is not just about more people choosing to would connect it with the Mayor of the West Midlands, do higher technical qualifications rather than going to Andy Street. His office was extremely sympathetic, university. It is about making sure that people go on but unfortunately no success was achieved. The training to further education rather than stopping their learning business has survived but in a much reduced way. at level 2 or 3. Our main challenge is not too many It occurs to me that part of that problem was that people going to university, but that too many people neither Bridgnorth nor Shropshire and the Welsh Marches finish education too soon. benefits from the same level of training and skills 1853 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1854

[THE EARL OF SHREWSBURY] major employers as the NHS, local government and education support enjoyed by the large West Midlands local universities. Can the Minister clarify the intentions conurbations. With this Bill, such a situation must not here because unless there is significant collaboration be allowed to happen. in local areas across the area, the aims of this Bill will I have two questions for my noble friend on the never be achieved? Front Bench. How closely are the Skills Ministers and There is also a huge issue around parity of esteem, Business Ministers working together to ensure that the and the Minister pointed this out in her opening Bill is supported and inputted to by business? It is vital remarks. Parental choices and student preferences have that business takes the lead in skills training; it knows not changed that much in the past 50 years. Leaving exactly what the needs are at the coalface. Secondly, aside public schools—although they cast a long shadow— with many training providers facing cash-flow issues grammar schools and 11-18 faith schools remain very due to reduced and considerably leaner numbers from popular with parents, followed by 11-18 local academies Covid restrictions, what support will those providers and sixth-form colleges. I regret to tell noble Lords be given? Without training providers, the Bill’sdeliverables this, but in the local areas that I know well, students will not be met. are not clamouring to go to the local FE college, even The Bill is an excellent opportunity to provide when they want to pursue courses in computer games and enhance the skills of our national workforce, and technology or basic health skills. I welcome it. I was talking to my 18-year old grandson about this issue recently. He attended a sixth-form college in the 6.18 pm north-east. I asked him whether any of his former Baroness Henig (Lab): My Lords, I congratulate schoolmates went to the local FE college. His reply the noble Baroness, Lady Black, on her outstanding was swift and telling: “Only if they couldn’t get in maiden speech, and welcome her to the House of anywhere else.” That showed me that attitudes and Lords. I know she has made a huge contribution to the perceptions have not changed very much. We all know higher education sector, most recently and presently at the problem, dating back to the Education Act 1944, Lancaster University. Her expertise and experience that technical schools and technical education never will be of great value in our future debates. I look developed as envisaged, and that in the past two forward to working with her on this Bill in the forth- decades all the emphasis has been on getting a university coming weeks. place, not on developing practical technical expertise Who could argue with the principal aims of the or getting technical qualifications. Bill—to transform post-16 education and training, to The noble Lord, Lord Baker, has been working boost skills and productivity, to involve employers incredibly hard in recent years to change this situation, more closely in course planning and provision, to get but the difficulties that he has encountered show the more people into work and to launch a new lifetime magnitude of the problems that we are still facing in skills guarantee? What is there not to like? But let me this area. It will take great effort and a huge transformation just stop there a minute. We are learning that this of technical provision throughout the country to change Government speak in headlines—ringing headlines perceptions. It is something that we must do, but it will that are echoed in the press and social media—but not be easy, and it requires long-term investment. then frequently there is little or no follow-through. It is important to make it clear that to deliver the The Bill is silent for the most part on funding issues, transformation that is needed in post-16 provision, a yet we know that one reason why FE colleges have transformation which it is quite clear from the debate struggled in recent years and have had to cut courses so far that we all support, to deliver the objectives of and narrow curriculums is lack of funding and constant this Bill, we must acknowledge that significant changes cuts to budget. Post-16 education funding is at present are needed, changes to structures, attitudes and funding. not fair and not rational for all the competing institution. On these crucial areas, the Bill is largely silent. My noble friend Lord Layard pointed this out very clearly. I have been involved in post-16 education in various ways, having served as a governor of an FE and an If the Government mean what they are saying adult education college. Post-16 education, especially about wanting to improve opportunities and boost 16-19 education, is incredibly fragmented. There are skills, particularly among disadvantaged students, they 11-18 grammar schools, faith schools, 11-18 academies, must commit to long-term funding, not just for post-16 comprehensives, sixth-form colleges, FE colleges and, FE colleges but in a whole range of social welfare very occasionally, tertiary colleges. Perhaps the Minister provision, to enable poorer, more disadvantaged and can confirm that putting employers at the heart of the unemployed individuals to access courses, train and post-16 skills system relates to their relationship with retrain and become more skilled. the local FE college only, but what of the other units Among the briefings sent to me for this debate was providing post-16 education? Will adult education a sobering statistic that 13 million adults in this country— colleges be involved? Will other education providers that is nearly one in four people over 18—lack level 2 be drawn into collaboration and, if so, how will this qualifications, equivalent to GCSEs. Some 9 million happen? adults lack functional literacy and numeracy skills. To be successful, local plans must bring together all The Bill has a lot of heavy lifting to do, and it will need schools and colleges in an area, as the noble Baroness, major investment over many years if it is to be more Lady Black, so vividly reminded us in her story about than aspirational. We want it to be successful, and I the schools working together with the college in the await the evidence in Committee that the investment Lancaster area. Employer groups need to include such will be forthcoming. 1855 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1856

6.25 pm but exciting future,especially during and after a pandemic? First, more traditional approaches to further and higher Baroness Hollins (CB) [V]: My Lords, I am proud to education are in need of a rethink. In further education be a fellow of City Lit, the leading adult education there is an aspiration to develop close links between college in the country, which, alongside other institutes education, business and the cultural and creative sectors. of adult learning, works hard to ensure that all adults, I want to see educational institutions become inclusive whatever their age or stage in life, can receive high-quality places that allow each and every person to find personal education and learning throughout their lives. However, fulfilment—places which fully understand the ethical during this stage of recovery from the pandemic, underpinning that enables equality of opportunity, many people may not yet be ready for retraining or where people can learn from each other,across traditional reskilling and will need to rebuild their confidence disciplines, learning to fuse arts, science and humanities first, for example, people with a lower level of formal to enrich them all. If we do not support the next skill, those with long Covid or people who have been generation to do this, we will be failing them. in the same sector for decades and are still unprepared To me, the pandemic launched a cultural revolution for a career change. which has left some people feeling out of their depth The Bill introduces a new duty for further education and others thriving because of the resilience and providers to review how well the education or training adaptability for which their life experiences and education provided by the institution meets local needs, with new to date has prepared them. We can learn from their powers for the Secretary of State to intervene where differing experiences. It is becoming clearer that being providers are not meeting local needs, as seen through a digitally competent and confident communicator the lens of the needs of local employers. There is also a who is able to work anywhere and manage one’s own focus on technical qualifications and on careers in time is more important than being a compliant worker certain sectors at level 3 and above. However, surely who clocks in and out on time. Being able to balance the definition of local needs should incorporate a one’s work and personal life is critical too. Some broader range of outcomes, for example, progression people have perhaps not developed emotionally and in into work for students taking non-accredited courses other ways that enable them to manage these boundaries or qualifications below level 3. Indeed, recent Department well enough. for Education data has shown that the return on We need to be careful not to put all learners in one investment for qualifications below level 2 is higher box, which the Bill and White Paper are at risk of doing. than that for level 3. As my noble friend Lord Bilimoria My own interest is to make sure that adults with and others have emphasised, without adequate support learning disabilities are not left behind, and that this for these lower-level qualifications, many students will future strategy ensures that individuals who need high- not be ready and able to take up the level 3 offers quality education but may experience significant barriers which are featured in the Bill. The Government response to accessing it are better catered for. Institutions such to a recent consultation on these qualifications is as City Lit, offering world-leading provision for adults promised later in the year, and I suggest that this with learning disabilities, the deaf community and people consultation will need to be properly considered alongside who stammer or struggle with communication issues, the provisions in the Bill. I look forward to the Minister’s must be able to continue this invaluable work. As we thoughts on these points. consider the Bill, let us ensure that no one is left out. Education institutions across the country have been impacted by the pandemic but throughout lockdown 6.31 pm have continued to deliver high-quality provision by Lord Jones (Lab) [V]: I congratulate the noble Baroness, accelerating the development of online courses, retaining Lady Black, on her speech. many of the strengths of venue-based provisions, such Over half a century in Westminster’s Houses, I have as interaction with tutors and other students, and the seencountlessBills,presentedbysuccessiveGovernments— ability to draw on learning resources in a range of Bill after Bill—and today we have the noble Baroness’s media. Now that social distancing restrictions are Bill. Britain is still striving to find the holy grail of gradually lifting, institutions will look to blend online skills and it is truly a worthy, welcome and urgent with in-person provision to offer a range of courses objective. One recollects the embattled Chancellor Denis which have greater flexibility than ever before. This is Healey exhorting Britain’s manufacturing companies a key time to codesign some of this future provision to drive down unit costs. Today’s Chancellor,Mr Sunak, with local employers and other local stakeholders. urges British industry to raise its productivity—not However, colleges and providers will be unable to much change over 45 years as Britain struggles to hold maximise this without an increase in infrastructure, on to her manufacturing base. support and investment. The Federal Republic of Germany is a mighty A core purpose of lifelong learning has always been industrial presence in Europe, a formidable competitor, to give people purpose through new experiences and a huge exporter, and renowned for engineering skills. knowledge and by connecting them with other like-minded Did not Chancellor Bismarck forge a lasting technical individuals. We have some amazing institutions that skills template in the 19th century? How can we persuade work hard to ensure that everyone is enabled to learn more school leavers to compete to take up apprenticeships? and improve themselves as well as to hold roles within How can we persuade more young women to enter their communities. These institutions provide pastoral this crucial field? Female entry is woefully low but a support on top of meeting the educational needs of successful apprentice in our blue-chip companies might their students. What have I learned during my life find that the world is her oyster. In the Times the noble about the skills that all citizens need for an uncertain Lord, Lord Baker, revealed that the big engineering, 1857 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1858

[LORD JONES] a pretty challenging Second Reading so far and I am motor and aircraft companies pay their apprentices confident that we can do some things to improve this salaries of £12,000 to £20,000 per year, and some even Bill. My own suggestion will be that we should broaden more. the definition of outcomes in Clause 17 to cover Does the Minister agree that parents of high-school mental health in higher education. leavers should be told formally and in a timely fashion Going into HE is a huge step change for most about these salaries, prospects and activities? Should children. In JCB’s apprenticeships provision, which is not head teachers encourage their students to apply pretty remote and therefore provides the facilities a for apprenticeships in the most positive manner, as a university might, it goes to immense lengths to look priority? Do we envisage in the future school tables for after the mental and general well-being of their apprentices. apprenticeships gained? It is far-fetched, perhaps, but Tomy mind, universities fall well short of that standard. how better to spur matters forward for the national future? When I tried a few years ago to see whether it might Ultimately, so much depends upon the head teacher. be possible to persuade universities to rely more on Today, young women are storming the rugby pitches, teacher recommendations to pick out students who soccer fields, cricket squares and the boxing ring. A far were underperforming for reasons of background but better place might be the aerospace shop floor where might turn out to be extremely good students none the excellent apprenticeships lead to salaries of £25,000 less, they said that they could not do that as they never per year and much more, consequent upon qualification, got to know their students well enough over the course bonus and shift work. Overall, the modern shop floor of three years to evaluate whether the teacher is spotlessly clean, well policed by health and safety recommendations had been accurate enough. and complete with pension and holiday. The current Universities can be lonely, frightening, isolating industrial playbook demands high-quality housekeeping places. The NHS mental health provision can take in today’s factory environment. Rolls-Royce, Nissan, some long while to catch up with the move from home Tata and Airbus all have close, local links with their to university. I am sure that many of us have stories of adjacent FE colleges. friends or relations who have had a mental health Take, for instance Airbus—the register refers to my crisis at university. In my case, a colleague of mine had interests—which furnishes a splendid example in north- a son at a Russell Group university, who happened to east Wales, my homeland and one-time constituency. be on a course where there did not seem to be much It is a 6,000-strong establishment of world-class skills, social life revolving around it. He was going back to a reservoir of unbeatable technical prowess and the his student accommodation, where there was not a lot equal of any comparable factory in the world. It of social life, and it was a chance telephone call from a makes the wings that fly the unsurpassed Airbus fleet. fairly distant university friend to this child’s mother Each year a large cohort of able apprentices enter that prevented the suicide. mainstream production. This company earns many It really is not acceptable these days that we allow billions in exports for Britain and has outstripped its these sorts of things to go on, when we know they are mighty competitor, Boeing. It is the jewel in the crown happening and we know we can do something about of Welsh industry and the foundation of its famed it. Universities can and should come up to speed. I do advance is leadership, fine apprenticeships, FE and not think that we should find ourselves in a situation business collaboration, and skills excellence. where we are giving universities a bad mark—it is The FE college in this renowned mix is Coleg something that they can all do well enough and come Cambria, which is near the factory runway. It has up to speed on, given a bit of oversight, so that they British awards and competition wins aplenty. The know they will be watched on it and that this is something paramount requirement in post-16 education is always they have to do. Clause 17 gives us an opportunity to the leadership skill of the principal, the CEO. This make some serious progress in this area. establishment had fine leadership from Wil Edmunds On local skills, I am very much in the same camp as OBE and David Jones OBE. These able professionals my noble friend Lord Willetts. This is a matter of our always liaised with head of plant, the professional children, not just businesses; it is not just the interests acknowledged throughout Europe,Mr Paul McKinlay—a of the businesses that matter but what our children are brilliant leader. The business world of north-east Wales and could become. It is ridiculous to imagine that all is the customer for skills. Skills training fails if the children in Eastbourne, where I live, are destined to business world is shut out. I am keenly aware that become either waiters or brickies. I am sure that there unions make up this global and local success in aerospace. are just as many musicians, programmers and engineers To conclude, in the helpful Explanatory Notes in in our cohort as there are in the middle of some annexe A on page 23 on provision, there is reference to well-provided city. We are a town of 100,000 people, “the competence of the Senedd”. with no academic state sixth-form provision. It would Will the Minister expand on this? How and when was be very sad if that same attitude of provision was to be there consultation on the Bill with Senedd Ministers extended to vocational education as well. and officials? There may not be time for the Minister There is a big role in this area for a national input to answer; if so, will she please write on the points I on skills, on what is needed and on where the jobs are have raised? going to come from over the next 20 years. Not all employer groups have good coverage of industries, 6.37 pm good skills and good cohesion; not all know what they Lord Lucas (Con) [V]: My Lords, I declare an need in a changing world. We have to support the local interest as a council member of City & Guilds. I am structures that we are going to build with a very strong very much looking forward to Committee. It has been understanding of what is happening in the world 1859 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1860 outside, and therefore an understanding of how to wholly separate from university education. As in the support those of our children whose destinies are not present system, there is no movement from one to the to work in the local economy. other; each is encapsulated in its own little stream. In that context, I very much hope, along with the Secondly, and this worries me even more than the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, that we will do something first point, technical education is seen and justified serious about careers information, advice and guidance. almost entirely in instrumental terms. There are skills There is an opportunity in this Bill to embed that in a that a society or region needs, and the question is how structure that can truly nurture it, to build on the you persuade students to go for those skills. What is current but much divided successful institutions and now suggested, therefore, is a kind of industrial fodder— provide something that will be part of someone’s like parliamentary fodder perhaps, but in the case of lifelong education, which they can turn to whenever industrial fodder students will become not so much they need, and to build on a flexible and modular respectable individuals trained in the art of thinking education that they will receive. Perhaps it will move for themselves but rather individuals who are masters out of schools, where it really struggles, and into the of certain skills, which they are able to sell. world of FE, making it much easier for people to This has a very important consequence, which I obtain the information that they need when they think must emphasise, on the regional or local orientation of that they want to change a career. the education system. Each locality, area or region must indicate its employment needs, but how is this to 6.44 pm be done? By employer representative bodies providing Lord Parekh (Lab) [V]: My Lords, the problem that a list of skills. That, in my view, is to give employers an the Bill addresses has been with us for a very long enormous amount of power and influence. They will time. Our education system has long been guided by a suggest which skills are to be produced, and we know single model of human excellence: you start your what the limitations of that will be. They are not education in a school and keep progressing until you democratically elected, and so the result will be that get to a university degree. If you are smart enough and you create almost a kind of corporate state, where the have the resources and inclination, you might do post- state works hand in glove with large employer graduate work and end your education with a doctorate. organisations. I fear the consequences of that. But that is not important; what is important is that Finally, in order to execute a system of this kind, the you must have a university degree—you must be certified stateobviouslyhasatendencytobecomeheavilybureaucratic. by the university to have acquired a certain body of This is one noteworthy feature of the Bill that many of knowledge and skills. If you are not good enough to your Lordships has pointed out. It gives the Secretary go to university, what do you do? Youturn to technical of Statethepowertoindicatewhichemployerrepresentative education, to the polytechnic, and if you cannot make bodies to recognise and which to withdraw recognition that, you walk out of the education system altogether. from, and to ask whether the sector is functioning In short, there has been a deep divide between properlyandwhichproviderinstitutionsarenotsatisfactorily university and technical education, between higher run. Again, this gives the state an enormous amount of and further education, and between successfully power in the field of education, the like of which we negotiating the obstacles to higher education and failing have not seen in this country before—not even under to do so.This divide has had some profound consequences Mrs Thatcher. So, while the objectives are valuable, I for our society and economy.Since university education very much hope that the means to realise them will be is the only marker of success and the basis of individuals’ just as civilised and humane. self-respect, everyone wants to go for it, with the result that there is inflation in the pursuit of degrees. Secondly, 6.50 pm just as a GP thinks of himself as a failed consultant, Lord Aberdare (CB): My Lords, I, too, strongly the person who fails to make it to university thinks of welcome this important Bill. Skills are fundamental to himself as a failed university graduate. This leads to a our future well-being both as a nation and as individuals. tremendous amount of bitterness and sadness, and a In order to succeed in an increasingly complex, lack of self-worth on the part of the individual. The competitive, technologically driven, net zero-targeting system also means that practical intelligence, being world, we need the right skills in the right places for good with one’s hands and mechanical skills are treated the right people at the right time. The Bill includes as inferior and not valued at all. many proposals to enable that. Most of what I wanted Obviously, there is no movement from university to to say has been more eloquently expressed by other technical education; they are parallel universes and noble Lords, so I will confine myself to questions in you are confined to one or the other. This has been our three areas that I believe may need some further problem for the last 150 years. Various attempts have thought, relating to small businesses, independent training been made to tackle the problem; this Bill is a very sincere providers and careers education. and profound attempt to do so. It has some very good The Bill rightly focuses on ensuring that skills are ideas—I do not need to spell them out—and the idea relevant to local needs, mainly through local skills that individuals who are interested in higher education improvement plans, created and managed by local would have lifelong access to resources is one that partnerships and led by employer representative bodies. levels up opportunities and is to be greatly welcomed. The Government play a central role through designating Before ending, I want very briefly to point out three the employer representative body for each local area or four limitations of the Bill, and I very much hope and then through approving the actual plans. This that the Minister will take account of them. First, it sounds to me more like a top-down, centrally driven concentrates on technical education and treats it as approach than a truly local one. 1861 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1862

[LORD ABERDARE] I support many other suggestions made by noble So how will LSIPs engage smaller businesses, Lords, including the desire to see the Baker clause particularly in areas with few major employers, where given statutory force and a more flexible apprenticeship most employers are small? How will the Government levy. I fervently hope that the Bill, when it leaves this ensure that LSIPs are not dominated by the views of House, will be even better crafted to create the skills larger, better-resourced employers in determining local system we so badly need. I like the description of the skills needs and allocating available funding? How will Bill by the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, as a “down- LSIPs build on and work with existing local partnerships, payment”. Will the Government complement it with a such as LEPs, careers hubs, skills advisory panels and comprehensive, overarching, cross-departmental, long- local digital skills partnerships? term education and skills strategy, so that the Bill will On independent training providers, I have a rather prove to be much more than just another of the different perspective from my noble friend Lady Wolf, regular reorganisations of our education and training who I am rather relieved to see is no longer in her furniture that have so signally failed to deliver in the place. ITPs provide a substantial proportion of skills past? training, including in the great majority of apprenticeships As my new noble friend Lady Black of Strome and traineeships. They are an essential and valuable suggested in her splendid maiden speech, we need to part of the system. Many are small, but they bring create an education ecosystem that brings together the much-needed responsiveness, innovation and competition talents and energy of all participants in delivering the to the skills training marketplace. Yet the Bill seems skills we need, including SMEs, ITPs and careers focused on constraining them through requirements professionals. to meet potentially onerous conditions for inclusion in the list of relevant providers. 6.56 pm Before joining noble Lords, I ran a small independent Baroness Stroud (Con) [V]: My Lords, I speak today business providing employability training for young to add my support for this Bill and to congratulate the Londoners. Our work was commissioned by bodies noble Baroness, Lady Black, on her maiden speech. such as the former London Development Agency, The United Kingdom stands at a reset moment. It has Barnardo’s, Nacro, schools, colleges and local authorities. delivered on the vote for Brexit, is forging a new These provided stringent supervision and oversight. trading relationship with our European allies and is But, as a small business focused on service delivery, we charting a course towards global Britain. While the would have struggled to meet the sorts of conditions UK was among the hardest hit by Covid-19, it is now suggested in the Bill—for example, for insurance cover finding a way out of the global pandemic, emerging as against possible cessation of training. Such a sledge- a world leader in the design, development and distribution hammer approach risks penalising all ITPs for the of effective vaccines. But if we are to make the most of failings of a few. this reset moment, we will need to unlock the talent, So how will independent training providers be more prosperity and potential of our regions, communities positively engaged in the development and delivery of and people. In order to do this, there needs to be a real local skills improvement plans? Will the Minister commit focus on developing the skills required not only for a to ensuring full consultation before details of the register 21st-century skills revolution but to create the economic of training providers and of the conditions ITPs have powerhouse that will drive the United Kingdom forward. to meet are finalised? We will need every element of British talent. Many noble Lords have emphasised the importance In many ways, the UK is well positioned to do just of impartial, independent, expert and personal this. We are one of the most prosperous countries in information, advice and guidance, including the noble the world, with an open and vibrant economy. Our Lord, Lord Lucas, just now. Careers education and national institutions are robust and our people are guidance have improved significantly in recent years, among the most educated in the world. But there are helped by the careers strategy launched in 2017, which also clear challenges. While levels of prosperity in the ended last year. But there is still some way to go to UK remain much higher than other nations and increased ensure that everyone has access to high-quality careers further during the first half of the 2010s, in more advice, that its provision covers all ages and circumstances recent years this prosperity has been stagnating. One and that it is provided by well-trained, highly qualified of the key drivers of this stagnation has been declining professionals with an understanding of the skills enterprise conditions, including skills shortages and scene, both locally and nationally, including pathways barriers to doing business. England, for example, has for acquiring skills in areas such as creativity—as we three times more low-skilled people among those aged heard from the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam—and 16 to 19 than the best-performing countries such as entrepreneurship, which we have heard rather less about. Finland, Japan, Korea and the Netherlands. In many Yet the Bill makes no reference at all to careers information ways, this was less visible while we had unrestricted and guidance. immigration. But now that we can feel the impact of Will the Government consider including a right to more controlled migration, we can see the need to professional careers guidance as part of the lifetime really focus on upskilling our own people. This is a skills guarantee? Will the provision of good careers good thing, and one that we should hugely welcome. education be made a formal requirement for colleges So why is this Bill so welcome, and why has our to achieve high Ofsted ratings? Finally, will the Minister existing approach to skills development simply been commit to producing an updated careers strategy to insufficient? For the past 20 years, the UK poverty support the aims of the Bill, including the extension of rate has shimmied at around 20% of the population. career hubs to cover the entire country? In the Labour years, just about every income transfer 1863 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1864 that could be thrown at this challenge was thrown, and develop their businesses using the incredible talents of the level still shimmied at or around 20%. In the the British people and that will enable us to compete coalition days, just about every employment intervention on the world stage at this critical moment of transition was thrown at this challenge, and the level still shimmied for us as a nation. at or around 20%. If we have learnt anything in the past 20 years, it is that we cannot solve poverty through 7.02 pm income transfer alone, or through supporting people into low-paid work alone. Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I agree very much with a lot of what the noble Baroness, Lady The poverty data shows that if you are on the Stroud, has just said. But I shall be listening to the national living wage, it takes all adults in a household Minister respond—I hope—to the questions from the working full-time to lift a family out of poverty. Even noble Lords, Lord Willetts and Lord Puttnam, and to then, 10% of such households are still in poverty. the point that the noble Lord, Lord Layard, made These families cannot work any more hours. They about the cuts. need to increase the value of each hour they work. To do this requires increased skills. Of course, I must welcome what was—no doubt about it—an awesome maiden speech from the noble The way to ensure that families who are doing Baroness, Lady Black of Strome. I fully admit that I everything right are out of poverty is to invest in their had read about her in the past and was in awe of what skill level and enable them to be able to earn more for she was doing and what she had achieved. Her speech each hour they work. This Bill is therefore hugely was absolutely magnificent. important as part of an anti-poverty strategy, but to actually level up requires us to develop those with the First, I declare my interests—no, let us do the lowest levels of skills at a faster rate even than those Lords’ interests. At present, there are about a dozen ex who are already skilled. This will require opportunity, or current university vice-chancellors in the Lords so there is one area where I would specifically like to and, last time I checked, over 40 university chancellors. probe a little on this matter. I am unaware of any leader or ex-leader of further education being in the Lords. The noble Lord, Lord The current welfare system is not really designed as Layard, made the point about the cuts to FE. If that a support mechanism for those on low incomes to had happened in higher education, there were 40 upskill. It is designed as an anti-poverty tool and to chancellors waiting in the Lords to pounce on Ministers. support people as they transition into work and up their hours. So I ask my noble friend the Minister: In 12 years in government, in several departments, I what changes are the Government considering to universal never met a civil servant who had further education credit conditionality to support their excellent approach experience and, as far as I am aware, no one in the to skills development? Cabinet has been through further education. It is a bold claim, of course, but I doubt that many Members But this Bill is important not only as an anti-poverty of the House have had actual FE experience as a tool; it is also hugely important for employers. Many student—and as for the Commons, such experience businesses report a deterioration of local conditions today would be a rarity. This makes the Bill even more for enterprise, including skills shortages and barriers important. It is concerned with important aspects of to doing business. Assessments of adult skills generally life that policymakers and lawmakers have no hands-on point to skills mismatches and many employers report experience of. Those are not quite the criteria to get it that a lack of skilled workers is a major and increasing right. bottleneck for their operations, affecting their capacity I left secondary technical school in 1957. There to innovate. On average, 26% of vacancies are generated were two such 13-plus schools in Birmingham, one by skills shortages within businesses. This is as high as specialising in engineering at Handsworth and the 36% in, say, the south-east. Across a range of sectors, other in Bournville specialising in construction. It is there is a growing employer demand for the skills that amazing: these are of course two of the sectors where higher technical education provides. there are skills gaps existing now that this Bill is The White Paper highlights the need for technicians, supposed to address, but there were only ever two engineers and health and social care professionals to technical schools in Birmingham. I did three years day meet the many vital challenges we face as a society. release in further education while I was doing my Investing in these skills at both a local and a national indentured apprenticeship for a mechanical engineering level is critical to improving our productivity and Ordinary National Certificate, and two nights a week international competitiveness. Our skills system has to get my endorsements in electrical and English— been very efficient at producing graduates but has although I suspect I never really made it in the latter. been less able to help people get the quality technical In the FE college at the time, there was abundant skills that employers want. A stat that we have heard adult education, as there was in some secondary schools. quoted today is that 4% of young people achieve a For many years in the period 1972 to 1997, I served on qualification at higher technical level by the age of 25, the board of an FE college, so I was aware at first compared with the 33% who get a degree or above. hand of the changes from pure technical skill to a Just imagine if we could have a society where 33% more comprehensive range of courses, and the change achieve higher technical level qualifications as well as from local authority control. I think our first action 33% getting a degree. on the board, post local authority, was to change the I am delighted to be supporting a Bill that will name of the college so that people knew where it was. enable people to invest in their ability to earn more for This was far more important than it sounds, by the each hour they work, that will enable employers to way, from a marketing point of view. 1865 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1866

[LORD ROOKER] just likeyou and me—developed new skills and technology, In some ways, I missed the phase where colleges and used their creativity to develop new forms of became more competitive and aggressive, and indeed communication, all remarkably quickly. That is an remote from their communities—although I was shocked, account drawn from a major study in the journal Science when taking over from my friend the late Lord Corbett Advances, published last year. I hope your Lordships’ of Castle Vale as chair of the local community House will see the parallels with what we face today. organisation, by the negative approach of a city centre We face a climate emergency, the state of our nature further education college to a campus at Castle Vale. is dire and our current growth-driven economic model That was caused purely by remoteness. has left us in a crisis of poverty and inequality. Massive I freely admit I am now more out of date, but I change is needed—yet, for all the Bill’s talk of the want the Government to succeed in this endeavour for future and the need for transition, neither it nor the the good of the country—as the noble Lord, Lord policy summary make any mention of climate or Puttnam, said, this is not a political Bill. But I fear a nature. There is only a brief mention of them in the furthernarrowingof theexistingprovisionandcurriculum. impact assessment. Your Lordships’ House has found It appears the educator voice is missing, which cannot itself in this situation with multiple recent Bills, and be a surprise given my introductory remarks, and other Bills have left here only after the addition of at there is clearly no accountability to communities. I am least some reference to climate and nature. I hope that not, however,fearful of employer involvement in courses. we can do that again. As the country that is the chair This was very strongly the case in the 1950s and 1970s, of COP, with a Government who like to attach the but employers are not the same. Today they are more words “world leading”to “green”, it is quite astonishing “here today, gone tomorrow” than in the days before that we should find ourselves in this position again. our deindustrialisation. Some strategic stability is required I point noble Lords to the excellent Peers for the and therefore a partnership with educators is vital—and Planet briefing on these issues, which goes into far I have to say that I think this should include professional greater depth than I have time to do today. However, I organisations such as the chartered institutions. I do will tick off some points. First, the global economy not think anybody has referred to those today. They has to be green, and, even in the Government’s own were crucial in FE, in awarding certificates, along with terms, there is a significant competitive advantage in the old Ministry of Education. enabling UK workers to upskill in green areas. Secondly, The range of courses has got utterly out of control the Government have, or are promising, a whole range due to the market. But we need to be careful about of sector-specific strategies, but we see no sign of how classifying qualifications that have so-called “low economic these will be joined up with the local skills improvement value” and therefore restricting choice and flexibility. plans. Thirdly, we get from the Government a very Low economic value to one can be the salvation for narrow idea of what future skills are needed—there another new enterprise or product. We have an unequal seem to be a lot of hard hats involved and, of course, nation where levelling up is not I hope intended to the ubiquitous digital skills. Of course we need a huge make us all the same, but we need to ensure that the amount of improvement in those areas, but equally Bill works for more diverse, non-traditional cohorts of urgent are skills in sustainable land management, nature- students. based solutions and ecosystem management—hard-toed Further education, unlike higher education—I have boots perhaps, but caked in healthy life-rich soil rather a mixed experience of a sandwich course at a college than hard concrete. Fourthly, we see no way in which of advanced technology and then, after a 10-year gap, the Bill feeds into the need for a just transition for post-graduate work—can be more transformative. It individuals and communities, as the noble Baroness, can help build the alert democracy and support the Lady Sheehan, powerfully illuminated. aspirations of all, going well beyond skills preparation Young people are demanding that their education for jobs. For some, it may be the only route to any include far more information about climate and qualifications they ever obtain, but there needs to be sustainability. They understand that it is central to LA involvement, maybe through the mayors. We ignore every part of their future life—so whyare the Government our local capacity at our peril. Indeed, I once read that not able to consider this in every part of education in a nation’s greatest asset was the capacity and willingness our society? The sustainable development goals to of its people to work. This Bill must improve our which the Government signed up and the systems human asset base. thinking that underlies them should be in every part and level of education. 7.09 pm That brings me to some points about what is in the Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP): My Lords, Bill. I begin with the expert remarks of the noble following on from the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, I feel Baroness, Lady Wilcox of Newport. I would associate I should declare my FE experience, which was shorthand myself with everything that she said but focus particularly at Wagga Wagga College in Australia and a very brief, on one point: she said that the local skills improvement and perhaps best glossed over, experience of farm plans need to be coproduced by communities, politicians, mechanics a long time ago. educators,students and businesses.From the Government, I will start with some older history, however: human we are hearing very much a sole focus on business, and history, or rather prehistory. Some 400,000 years ago, we know that the loud business voices are likely to be in the East African Rift Valley, the human species the big ones, which are not the major part of our faced a huge threat: a massive ecological change. The very economy. As the excellent University and College foundations of their world had shifted. Archaeological Union briefing on this Bill notes, the educator voice is evidence shows that those ancient humans—individuals missing from the Government’s plans. I want to focus 1867 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1868 on and extend the noble Baroness’s point about students, The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, set out an extensive for if students are not at the heart of designing courses, set of details we will need to amend, especially given they are unlikely to meet their needs, not just for a the extent of cuts in recent years. The Bill faces a narrow set of technical competencies but for life in a world of profound social and cultural change. Work fast-transforming world. is restructuring and sometimes vanishing at an We now come to the big issue: what is education unprecedented rate. AI will accelerate the change. for? The majority of today’s speakers have focused on Personal and group identities and aspirations are changing, employment, but we all need lifelong learning and and I believe there is a concomitant acceleration of continuing education in varying forms and fitting social fragmentation. Access to information and various places in the Government’s classifications, from knowledge is unparalleled, and with changing technologies level 2 upwards. We need to function in society as has come a growth in personal demand for choice—an community members, voters, parents and, as the noble insistence on personal choice which will not be amenable Baroness, Lady Verma, noted, users of the financial to strict direction. sector. In a society with an epidemic of mental ill-health, The world of skills providers is no longer the traditional we should not underplay the value of learning new rationalist, calculative, instrumental and depersonalised skills, finding new places in society for public health, one. It still demands expertise, not least because of its as the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, noted. complexity, but it is now more characterised by being The Minister said in her introduction that 34% of networked, information-based, personal, risky and often working-age graduates are not in high-skilled employment. post industrial. There is a demand for new competences, I really hope she will acknowledge that that does not the capability to withstand more competition, to deal mean they are not using the skills they obtained from with faster technical and environmental change and to that education. Employment is not the only place know that there are no jobs for life. They flow from the those skills are needed. That is where I find myself, structural changes in industry and occupations, and considerably to my surprise, in agreement with the all these changes in the nature of workplaces, work/life noble Lords, Lord Willetts and Lord Johnson. Setting balance, and the dreadful fact that some households further and higher education against each other, even have people now in the third generation of unemployment in opposition to each other, and suggesting that funding —truly left behind—pose a great challenge. This must should not be available to those with higher qualifications surely focus us on enabling personal aspiration wherever for so-called lower-level courses further hardens what the aspiration can be met in the UK. is already an extraordinarily hierarchical system. The Bill has to achieve vital goals. First, it must I fear that the Minister, in response, may say I am overcome chronic poor productivity against the drawing the brush too widely, that these are matters background I have tried to describe. It must ensure for other Bills and other days. I go back to the first words high skill levels are achieved and geographically of the Bill: distributed, but allow for enhanced personal mobility. “A Bill to make provision about local skills improvement That means far more lifelong learning and far better plans; to make provision relating to further education”. literacy and numeracy. Raising skills would drive the Education is not and cannot be just about jobs or UK to being a high-supply, high-demand economy serving the economy. and away from low productivity but, if it is to succeed, the financial support of students must be far more 7.15 pm explicit than it is in the Bill, especially up to level 3 and Lord Triesman (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I declare my as people change career course. interests as a board member of the Capital City College Secondly, the Bill has to respond to the need for Group and chair of the advisory board of Learning work readiness. The better the qualifications of students, Development Training, a private further and higher the better employers say their applicants are prepared. education provider. It is a pleasure to follow the noble It is right to focus on employability, but experience Baroness, Lady Bennett, who raised some important shows that employers are not always expert at reading issues. I add my congratulations to the noble Baroness, the runes about the future rather than identifying their Lady Black, and look forward to hearing more about immediate needs. If the Bill is to succeed, there will her life. need to be serious consultations about developments FE and skills were described by the Minister, and in business demand. With the best will in the world, many others, as a Cinderella service in education. that cannot rely exclusively on employers. There is a However, Cinderella did actually get to the ball: FE significant role for government industrial strategy, for rarely has. This is not new; we have a record of neglect. skills advisory councils and certainly for individual In his history of the loss of British influence, Corelli students. Barnett set out a two-centuries’ long failure to foster a Next, a third of adults engage in no formal learning coherent skills base, which equipped us so poorly as whatever after leaving school, yet they live in a world an industrial power before each world war and then which is changing rapidly and constantly, so the Bill again afterwards.Yet we routinely saythat the Government must address the motivational barriers from early must do better, and despite efforts in FE and some learning onwards. This is not just a matter for colleges, exceptional colleges—I pick just one, Bridgwater & sixth-form colleges or indeed the many entities in this Taunton College—the Government themselves routinely space. They need to work collaboratively; it is a whole- do no better. This legislation is a major opportunity society issue. It is fundamentally an issue of economic for more than 2.2 million students per year currently and social resilience for the United Kingdom, and we to develop career opportunities. I welcome that, but must learn the lessons of the last couple of years. Perhaps the devil is in the detail. our most valuable asset is our ability to co-operate. 1869 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1870

[LORD TRIESMAN] largely zero carbon. The Bill also needs to offer support Finally, a simple switch between university and to workers transitioning out of high-carbon sectors or skills funding, as several noble Lords have said, is intensive agriculture who already possess level 3 surely misconceived. To prosper in a world of rapid qualifications but will not be able to access the lifelong technological change and innovation, and with the loan entitlement. That needs to be changed. growing importance of creativity, including the arts, in Along with many other noble Lords, I want to our economy, it is essential to develop people who can voice my comments about the mood music around work through the challenges of fundamental rethinking. higher and further education at the moment, which A significant proportion will have to be able to deal in might well impact on this Bill and on post-16 education. conceptual analysis, and this has been a central example I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Willetts and Lord of progress in history. Professor Robert Reich’s huge Johnson, that there should not be a false conflict influence on boosting the competitiveness of the United between further and higher education; they should States economy was built on this thought. In short, work in collaboration and not compete for resources. higher education provides the necessary condition for Ensuring parity of esteem is important, but it should education-led prosperity, as it is also a wide basis for be by investing in further education, not by taking vocational qualification. Yet we must also meet the funds away from higher education and levelling down. needs of the sufficient conditions, and that is where At times, the Government are almost hostile to the skills agenda and this Bill can be transformative. higher education, with the result that courses are This is the foundation of meaningful parity of esteem. being judged on student outcomes defined partly by Let us not embark on a turf war between HE and FE getting degree-level jobs, whatever they are, and earning funding—that can never help. We, and the Bill, will be appropriate incomes. It seems to be obligatory at this tested on the promotion of an all-through co-operation, point to declare your education, so here I go: I have an not on robbing Peter to pay Paul. MA in Classics from Edinburgh University, a highly relevant degree, but not exactly job orientated in some 7.22 pm people’s views. For reasons best known to myself and Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) [V]: My Lords, a complete mystery to my mother, I took a job as a I declare my interest as chairman of the Royal Veterinary secretary for two years post graduation, which would College and former chancellor of Cranfield University have screwed up Edinburgh’s outcome measures, had and my various environmental interests. It is really they existed 50 years ago. great to be number 50 on a speakers’ list; everything I believe that we need careful scrutiny of Clause 17 that could be said has been said, but unfortunately I on quality assessment for higher education. Metrics of have not yet said it, so I will try to be brief. quality need to take account of contextual factors, if I welcome the Bill in principle for its provisions on they are not to jeopardise widening access for the less technical skills education and lifelong learning advantaged. They must take account of how students opportunities for all, but it misses a real opportunity define their success and the flexibility that they will that has already been raised by a number of Peers. The need in the fast-changing job market. twin challenges of climate change and biodiversity decline are the biggest existential threats globally; the 7.27 pm Bill needs to respond to that and to take an ambitious Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD): My Lords, this approach to developing the wide range of skills to has been an extraordinarily wide-ranging debate. I meet our global climate and nature goals and to exploit thank the Minister for her co-operation and for having new UK and global markets and jobs that these goals meetings with us beforehand. I add my congratulations are already creating. to the noble Baroness, Lady Black, on a brilliant maiden We need to move to a prosperous zero-carbon speech. I noticed all the Lancaster connections, with economy and society with the help of the Bill. It the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and the noble Baroness, should be a catalyst for building the wider public Lady Henig, being Lancastrians; my daughter and her understanding and behavioural change fundamental husband met at Lancaster 30 years ago, so it has fond to meeting net zero and reversing biodiversity loss, memories for me too. I hope we shall hear much more such as in the case of those challenges driven by our from her in the future, whether it is on the living or the rising consumption across the globe. This is not just dead. my view—businesses, educators and learners have all Given all the very many briefings we have received expressed their views and provided strong evidence from far and wide, I start by asking the Minister what that climate and sustainability considerations need to discussions the Bill team had with stakeholders before be embedded into our post-16 framework. drafting the Bill. Did they take advice from the Association Local skills improvement plans have been raised by of Colleges, the Open University, City & Guilds—I many noble Lords; they must not just be driven by declare my interest as a vice-president, having worked local employers but take account of government priorities there for 20 years—or from the Federation of Awarding and strategies, such as the industrial decarbonisation Bodies, which held a discussion this morning that strategy, the energy White Paper, the nature strategy threw up some interesting questions that I had not and the heating and building strategies. This Government thought of, or from independent training providers? appear to have quite a lot of strategies. With skills for We heard from the noble Lords, Lord Bichard and nature-based solutions, ecosystem management, drainage Lord Aberdare, about the importance of independent and even tree planting, we will need to think of the training providers, and other awarding organisations. future. A child starting school this summer will leave If so, did the Government take their advice or, given in 2035 and will move into labour markets that will be all the amendments that we seem to be throwing up, 1871 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1872 did they proceed without reference to those whose awarded a national qualification—a national certificate— professional lives have been devoted to skills, colleges and given a real incentive to continue. The Minister and adult education? says that they do not feature in this legislation because I am also involved in the Professional Qualifications they are catered for elsewhere. Perhaps she could clarify Bill, where the Minister keeps telling us he will “assuage” that. us, as he attempts to convince the Committee that all All the questions I would have asked have, of course, is well with that Bill. Will the Minister hope to “assuage” by now already been asked—just not by me, as the us this afternoon, I wonder? noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, said. I will Of course, we are all delighted to have a skills Bill; concentrate on a handful of areas in which we would as we know, skills and further education are too often really like to hear the Minister’s reply and hope to be overlooked. Like the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, I assuaged. The first is the relationship between Ofqual blame it in part on the fact that almost all officials and and IfATE, which has already been raised. The Minister politicians have gone the university route. They have said this would be collaborative. Will it be collaborative? had little or no contact with work-based, vocational Will it duplicate? Will it make things much more qualifications, nor indeed with further education, as complex? The fear is that these two organisations will they have followed the gilded path of academia, often make the situation more complex. regarding trade, if they regard it at all, as another less The noble Lord, Lord Baker, talked passionately privileged world. How wonderful that the noble Baroness, about enforcing the Baker clause. When the technical Lady Stowell, is a shining example of how very mistaken education Bill was going through, this was the only that view is. amendment the Government accepted. Of course, it The growth in apprenticeships is beginning to erode was a Conservative amendment. All our brilliant Liberal the divide and curiously, one outcome of Covid may Democrat amendments got thrown out. Then an election be that university experience with no face-to-face teaching, was called so we were not even able to have ping-pong. socialising or drunken raves may be looking less inviting The Baker clause is a very valuable thing whereby to the young school leavers. So we approach this Bill people have to go into schools, at an early enough with high hopes and expectations but, having read the stage that the youngsters still have decisions to make, myriad briefs, those hopes and expectations are not as to tell them about UTCs, colleges and all the other high as they might be. possibilities. If I am one of the winders, I like to namecheck, but This leads us on to the whole business of careers I am afraid I will have to apologise this time. I have information and guidance, which a great number of listened to everyone, including when I was doing my noble Lords brought up, including the noble Lords, duty on the Woolsack—I am quite capable of multitasking Lord Knight and Lord Lucas, and my noble friend —but time will not permit me to acknowledge all the Lord Stunell in connection with the construction industry insightful contributions we have heard today. particularly. It is vital that young people are shown the I am sorry the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, is not in possibilities at a very early stage. There is evidence that youngsters at the age of six or seven have already his place. I welcomed his piece in yesterday’s Times, with his well-reasoned arguments for abandoning the gender-stereotyped particular jobs. This is not good ELQ rules whereby you cannot get funding for studying for them, the economy or anybody. for an equivalent or lower-level qualification than one Schools need to collaborate with colleges. Schools you already possess, even in a completely different have all sorts of incentives for wanting to hang on to subject area and when it could open doors to other their pupils and to make them do GCSEs and A-levels. employments. I hope the Government will look at this My noble friend Lord Storey asked: would it not be again, because it really is very detrimental. wonderful if schools celebrated their apprenticeships? Wewelcome the lifelong learning entitlement, although I remember, in the balmy days of coalition government we Liberal Democrats regret that it is in the form of a when I was in the DfE, saying to Michael Gove: “For loan. We heard the reasons why from both the noble goodness’ sake, get the schools to celebrate their Lord, Lord Willetts, and the noble Baroness, Lady apprenticeship leavers. If they’re putting up a placard Wyld. Many adults will be reluctant to incur debt outside the school saying, ‘These kids have all gone on when, mid-life, they have responsibilities to families, to university’, put up another one saying, ‘These ones so pursuing their own improvement could seem selfish. have gone on to apprenticeships’.” He said, “What a We wish to see this as a grant, a skills wallet, which we very good idea, Sue”, and did absolutely nothing about are sure would pay for itself as the recipient’s earning it—but there we are. power and self-esteem increase. If we are to work with the colleges, one of the Like the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, and the inequities that needs to be redressed is the difference in noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, we are also anxious not pay between college teachers and schoolteachers. It to lose sight of the value of levels 1, 2 and 3 qualifications. really is not right, so will the Minister please take that Level 1 can often be the stepping stone for those who away and try to do something about it? have never passed any exams to gain new confidence One of my major concerns when the technical and the desire to continue to learn. We saw this many education Bill was going through was that T-levels times with NVQs at level 1, derided by the snobbish were technical—just “technical”. As we have heard press as “not very qualified”. Actually, they applied from the noble Lords, Lord Puttnam, Lord Johnson that to all the NVQs, which just shows how ignorant and Lord Cormack, and the noble Baroness, Lady and prejudiced some journalists can be. At City & Lane-Fox, a whole range of craft and creative industry Guilds we saw non-learners grow in stature when qualifications really deserve their place. Not only are 1873 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1874

[BARONESS GARDEN OF FROGNAL] This Bill has been a long time coming, because it is they good for careers and economy but, by goodness, the first piece of government education legislation laid they increase our quality of life. Yet this emphasis all before Parliament for almost five years. That is so far the time on technical qualifications rather implies that in the past that the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of craft does not matter; it does, and we need to do Cotes, was then the Education Secretary. We are now something about it. on her third successor. I had another bit of paper somewhere; I have just a The data shows that 16 to 19 education in England couple more things. We fully endorse funding for has suffered a huge funding squeeze, as my noble modular and short courses. That is absolutely essential, friends Lady Blackstone and Lord Layard stated. but why not until 2025? As we have already heard, that Between 2010-11 and 2018-19, real-terms funding per really needs to come forward. We need it as soon as student in sixth forms and colleges fell by 16%. Technical possible. students received 23% less funding than academic We also notice with concern the sad drop-off in students. Recent additional funding of £400 million part-time learners from both the Open University and announced by the Government focused on technical Birkbeck, but I also read that there has been a 26% fall education will, I am afraid, reverse only a quarter of in undergraduate higher education in the last decade. these cuts. Where are all our young people going? What are they The Bill does not deal with fundamental resourcing doing? This really is not good enough. We need a issues, but these have to underpin any serious attempt full-time push to try to get skills and education back to transform post-16 education and training, which on the agenda. If this Bill can be the catalyst for that, the policy summary notes claim is the main aim of that will be terrific. this legislation. The impact assessment identifies the I have a last bit of paper somewhere, except that I huge decline in adult education, apparently without have lost it. No, here we are. We have too much paper appreciating the irony, given that the adult education in this place. I have to say that, when you sit for six budget has been slashed by half in real terms, which hours in the Chamber with a mask on, some of your has led to a sharp decline in adult learners and particularly rationale does disappear. in workplace learning. The Government’srecent pettiness inaxingtheUnionLearningFundshowedthatMinistersare We have had an absolutely wonderful variety of more interested in playing politics than supporting speeches. All of us in the Chamber are committed to workplace learners. None of the Bill’s objectives will skills and education, and to the Bill going through and be achieved if these issues remain unaddressed. improving skills and education opportunities for The Bill covers only FE providers and sixth-form everybody, but we have also heard major concerns that colleges. It makes no reference to schools, yet they it really does need amendment. I feel sure that we shall play a vital role in equipping young people with the all be prepared to work cross-party to try to ensure skills they need to thrive in life. The White Paper that we improve the future for young people and stressed the importance of good careers education in adults, and that the Bill ends up as a major contribution schools, a point made in today’s debate by the noble to the economy and the well-being of all of us. I look Lord, Lord Storey,and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan forward to the Minister’s reply and to Committee. of Cotes, yet the Bill does not mention that either. A significantnumberof schoolsdelivertechnicalqualifications 7.37 pm —some have been accepted to pilot T-levels —and it is Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab): My Lords, this difficult to understand how a meaningful local skills has been a fascinating and in many ways stimulating strategy can exclude post-16 provision in schools. debate. Perhaps that was inevitable given that participants One of the main planks of the Bill is the introduction included four former Secretaries of State for Education. of a lifetime skills guarantee, albeit, as many noble For more than an hour, we had the company of the Lords have said, with a rather narrow focus within the current holder of that post, which does him some technical disciplines that it will support. Almost 1 credit. Four former Education Ministers also spoke. million priority jobs will be excluded from the lifetime As my noble friend Lord Rooker pointed out, in his skills guarantee in sectors facing a skills shortage. typically forthright style, many noble Lords referenced What about Wednesbury Woman who wants to retrain positions held in higher education institutions. To the as a computer programmer, or Mansfield Man who best of my recollection, the noble Baroness, Lady wants to go into hospitality? What is in the Bill for Hollins, was the only Member to declare a position as them? Inexplicably, hospitality—a sector desperate for a board member of an FE college, far less a school. new staff and suffering terribly from the effects of That is another aspect of the divide that we need to lockdown—is excluded. bridge if our calls for parity of esteem are to have the One significant barrier for adult learners is the cost ring of authenticity. of study, an issue not included in the Bill despite being I am pleased to wish the noble Baroness, Lady highlighted in its impact assessment. Perhaps the Minister Black of Strome, a warm welcome to your Lordships’ can explain that conundrum. While provisions are House. I add my congratulations on her remarkable made for a lifetime loan entitlement, it is unfortunate maiden speech. I do not know the noble Baroness, but that its details are yet to be revealed. The effect of this I certainly know of her. She was a professor at the is that they cannot be scrutinised by noble Lords University of Dundee, my home city, so I was aware today and must be delayed until Committee. that she had created the Centre for Anatomy and Lifelong learning must mean just that, as many Human Identification there. It has now gained an noble Lords have said. People should have access to international reputation. training and reskilling throughout their lives, but there 1875 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1876 remain concerns that the LLE may see participants added to the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, being saddled with substantial debts, especially if the also spoke passionately of the need for the inclusion of Government fail to deliver on the recommendation of supported internships, which should be an integral the Augar review that maintenance grants should be part of local skills plans. This is sure to be addressed reinstated for people from low-income households, as in Committee. advocated by the noble Lord, Lord Bichard. We are The Bill’s centralising theme also extends to two told this is an issue on which the Government will aspects of further education. It hands the Secretary of consult. I have to ask: why? Wales has shown that State powers of intervention if he does not like what a these grants attract many into training, so why yet particular college is teaching, even if the quality of more delay? that teaching has been shown to be good. The Secretary The question of delay also concerns the LSG, which of State can dismiss the local leadership team if the will not be introduced until 2024, and the LLE a year college is deemed not to be following the LSIP. later. The Minister referred to complexities in this Independent training providers will also be cowering regard involving the modular system, but the many at the thought of being targeted by Ministers for the people facing unemployment in the coming weeks and same reason—a warning we heard issued by the noble months needs access to courses now to help them to Lord, Lord Bichard. retrain and upskill. What does the Minister say people That seems draconian, but the Bill also gives Ministers should do in the interim while this is being developed? the ability to regulate initial teacher training for further The Government say that their main focus is on education. Such a system did exist; it was introduced helping the country recover from the pandemic’s damage by the Education Act 2002 but abolished by the to the economy and spreading opportunity more evenly Deregulation Act 2015. I ask the Minister what has led across the regions—worthyaims.Local skills improvement to the need for change just six years later. It seems the plans are identified as the means of achieving that, but intention is to introduce standards for ITT in further the employer representative bodies in the legislation education and to accredit providers to deliver them. seem designed to be creatures of direct ministerial On the face of it, there is nothing wrong with that, but control; several noble Lords have registered their concern it sounds like the politicisation of initial teacher training— about that. While it is right that our skills system something that, as my noble friend Lord Knight should be better at identifying and meeting the skills highlighted, is already happening in ITT for schools, needs of employers, designating them the exclusive as a result of Ministers’ commitment to a particular drivers of technical education, as my noble friend educational ideology. Lady Morris said, gives them too much power.Employers In opening the debate, the Minister referenced the certainly have a contribution to make, but to suggest Augar review’s call for parity of esteem, and many that no other bodies have anything to offer is surely noble Lords followed her lead. If one theme has wrongheaded, not least because employers do not dominated the debate, it is the need to end the division have a great track record in training their employees between academic and technical routes, which, as the for future patterns of work and developing skills demands. noble Lord, Lord Willetts, rightly said, is a false one. After all, the Government introduced the apprenticeship He illustrated that by reminding us that academic levy specifically because encouragement had failed. courses are offered at FE colleges, while technical The noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury, referenced the subjects can be studied in universities. The divide was West Midlands metro mayor. I wonder what Mr Street’s characterised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop reaction is to being completely sidelined, along with of Leeds as a “crazy distinction”. While my noble other metro mayors,combined authorities,local enterprise friend Lord Puttnam stressed that this is not a zero-sum partnerships and universities. We will bring forward game, my noble friend Lord Liddle called for amendments that empower these bodies to co-produce “collaboration, not polarisation”. I echo these sentiments local plans in recognition of their own vital roles. and very much hope that the Bill will at least begin to bridge that divide. The Minister has important questions to answer While we welcome the Bill’s aims, there remain here. Top of the list is to explain the membership, many areas of detail—some not in the Bill, as drafted— functions and central government control of employer that require extensive scrutiny and testing. We look representative bodies. How will they undertake their forward to engaging with both Ministers in Committee, planning, particularly when starting from scratch? with a view to enabling the Bill to achieve a joined-up How will ERBs be held to account, and how will the system of education, including regulation and funding. extent to which providers are meeting local needs be measured and assessed? What will happen if a metro mayor disagrees with the ERB? What role is envisaged 7.48 pm for local enterprise partnerships, which are not mentioned Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, I thank noble in the Bill at all? Yesterday’sissue of the Local Government Lords for their contributions today; I appreciate the Chronicle carried an article claiming LEPs were to be expert knowledge that they bring and the many passionate evolved rather than abolished. Can the Minister confirm speeches. As the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, said, I that, and whether such evolution will be the subject of hope I have retained some of my rationality during consultation? this interesting debate. My noble friend Lady Wilcox made the important I begin by giving a special thanks to the noble point that supported internships, which can play a Baroness, Lady Black, for her maiden speech. Like my major role in supporting learners with learning difficulties noble friend Lady Morgan, I am the beneficiary of a to prepare for and enter the world of work, must be touch typing course, which has stood me in good 1877 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1878

[BARONESS BERRIDGE] On the measures in the Bill on local skills improvement stead. I was fascinated to hear of the career of the plans, I agree with my noble friend Lord Taylor on the noble Baroness, Lady Black, in forensic anthropology— importance of localism. The local skills improvement but, as one of the more squeamish Members of your plans are putting employers at the heart of the skills Lordships’ House, I do not need to know anything system in a way similar to the apprenticeship situation further. I wish her well, and hope that she enjoys her and the T-levels that we have designed. Many noble time in this House as much as I do. Lords talked about that tension: someone has to be in I turn now to the points that noble Lords have the driving seat here. There cannot be a cast of thousands raised. But given that there have been 50 speakers, as but there needs to be appropriate consultation. So the was outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, I am Government have decided that these will be employer afraid that the department will be writing some letters representative groups. To clarify to the noble Baroness, after I have concluded. Lady Bennett, we did not define them as businesses but as employers. That might be the big local hospital, Before I turn to the specific questions, many of or a university might be an employer for that purpose your Lordships followed the lead of my noble friend rather than just being the provider. They are well Lord Willetts, including the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, placed to have that convening role, including of course and my noble friends Lord Baker and Lord Cormack. the SMEs, in their local area. As the right reverend I am the beneficiary of the wisdom of previous holders Prelate the Bishop of Leeds highlighted, their involvement of junior and Secretary of State positions in the is crucial. department, in that my homework has been corrected: there is no artificial distinction between vocational, My noble friend Lady Morgan asked what the technical and academic—no sense that one is better Government envisage ERBs to be. We consider them than the other. We are trying to achieve a system to be independent bodies designated by the Secretary where they all have parity of esteem, where the institutions of State to develop local skills improvement plans. that teach these qualifications have parity of esteem They are capable of developing that plan in an effective and where the quality of all those qualifications is and efficient manner and many noble Lords talked there. about the future—the noble Baronesses, Lady Morris and Lady Lane-Fox. The plans have to be dynamic The reforms in the Bill are aimed at bringing the and will include not just existing skills but what the system closer together and the lifelong loan entitlement, future for the local area looks like. I want to reassure for instance, will bring together all the funding support the noble Baronesses, Lady Coussins, Lady Janke, for learners—that is, level 4 to level 6—wherever you Lady Henig, and the noble Lord, Lord Watson, that in might be studying that. One can also look at the Section 4 the relevant providers are not just FE and system at the moment and see that there is not a HE; they include the schools that are delivering post-16, conflict or a battle between FE and HE—the Government as well as the independent training providers. So the do not desire that at all. We recognise the collaboration educators are included, and it is supposed to be a there is. When we look at the recent introduction of dynamic relationship between the employer representative institutes of technology, we see that they have been a body and the relevant providers that, as I say, we have collaboration; the university technical colleges of my outlined. noble friend Lord Baker have also been a collaboration, as have been the recent specialist maths sixth-form On a point raised many hours ago by the noble colleges, with universities involved in 16 to 19 provision. Baroness, Lady Wilcox, the mayoral combined authorities So the system is not even that twofold—just FE and will be engaged in developing the local plans. The HE. We will also fund T-levels, A-levels and other White Paper talked about the fact that they will be high-quality academic and technical qualifications for consulted on this and, as I mentioned, we have these young people and adults at level 3. This will ensure trail-blazers that we have recently procured, so we will that, whatever option learners choose, they will have a know the particular areas where we will be starting pathway to success. there. They will help to shape the local plans. A few noble Lords mentioned being disqualified However, one reason to have local skills improvement from access to LLE. If you want the funding for level plans is the gaps we have at the moment. The noble 4 and you are accepted by the institution to study that, Earl, Lord Shrewsbury, referred to this position for it does not matter if you do not have level 3 or level 2. parts of Shropshire, in such a dynamic region as the That is how universities have operated for a while: they West Midlands. There will be a local skills improvement sometimes have different access routes.Therefore,although plan across the country and it is obvious to state, but obviously we have the funding situation for levels 1 perhaps I need to say it, that not everyone has a and 2, you will have that entitlement. If you get mayoral combined authority. As noble Lords have accepted on a course at level 4, you will be in the often said, we do not have a settled, defined geography lifelong loan entitlement pot. There is no prerequisite out there for many things—our police authorities, our that you have to have level 3. However, of course we local government—so this is where “local” will be recognise the value of those qualifications, as many defined by the local employers coming forward. Many noble Lords have said, and therefore the advanced of the current trailblazers have come with the endorsement learner loans will still exist for level 3 courses that are of local government or, where relevant, the mayoral not the 400 courses that we are currently funding if combined authority. you do not have the full entitlement or if you have the The noble Lord, Lord Patel, the noble Baroness, full level 3 entitlement and want to do something Lady Coussins, and the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, different. I hope that clarifies that everyone will have asked how the local skills improvement plans will that lifelong loan entitlement between levels 4 and 6. interact with national strategies. They will be informed 1879 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][15 JUNE 2021] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1880 by the national skills priorities, as highlighted by the pathway for learners and there will be an opportunity Skills and Productivity Board; that will remain. The for Parliament to consider the details of the regime board will undertake expert analysis of the national when the regulations are laid. skills that we need to inform government policy. It has become clear today that a lot is happening The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, asked what powers around this legislation; this is the statutory underpinning the Government have should businesses take a back to the skills White Paper,but we also have the consultation seat and rest on their laurels. If the ERB does not that has just finished on level 3, the call for evidence comply with the set conditions, the Secretary of State on level 2 and the consultation on the details of the may not approve and publish its skills improvement lifelong loan entitlement. Turning to that, I confirm to plan and could remove its designation. Obviously, it the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, that it is our intention, goes without saying that all the powers of the Secretary as outlined in the Explanatory Notes, to bring forward of State are subject to criteria for judicial review. amendments to the lifelong loan entitlement ahead of These powers must be used in a proportionate manner, Committee. I can also confirm to the noble Lord, et cetera; they are obviously not an absolute power. Lord Bichard, that the LLE will be available to be The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, and the noble used from levels 4 to 6. The noble Baroness, Lady Baronesses, Lady Sheehan, Lady Young and Lady Wilcox, also mentioned the funding of level 3. As I Bennett, talked about the importance of green jobs have outlined, that is covered by the national skills and net-zero carbon. We expect the LSIPs, led by the fund and there are now the boot camps—flexible employer-represented bodies with that link to the national courses for up to 16 weeks. As I have said, that is in strategy, to look at what future green jobs are in the addition to the availability of the ALL and bursary area. An element will be national because of what support fund for level 3 qualifications. needs to happen with household boilers, as I think the Many of your Lordships, including the noble Lords, noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, mentioned, so there Lord Bichard and Lord Watson, and my noble friend will be an interconnection there. Lady Wyld, raised questions on the detail of the LLE The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, and the noble ahead of the upcoming consultation. We will do that Lord, Lord Curry, raised questions on local needs. It is as soon as possible during the passage of the Bill. I am about the needs of the learners and the employers in a not able to give a clearly defined timeline on this, but local geographic area served by the college. The noble the consultation will cover questions on, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, questioned the centralisation here, Lord, Lord Watson, mentioned, maintenance credit but what we are saying here is that we are allowing transfers; the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, and many “local” to define itself. We have not said that it has to other noble Lords mentioned the ELQ rules, which be the local authority area, the MCA area or the LEP will also be within the consultation. I am happy to ask area. There is a dynamic here to areas being able to officials to set up briefing sessions with noble Lords say, “This is the area that we, as employers, need to once the consultation has been launched. look at.”The plan will be an important point of reference. Many noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Curry,my noble friend Lord Cormack, As the noble Lord, Lord Curry, spoke, I mouthed and the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, asked about “Newton Rigg”. I am aware that there have been issues the introduction date of the LLE. As well as the in relation to the provision of land-based education in consultation, we have got a lot of work to do with the that part of Cumbria. I regularly see questions about Student Loans Company to co-design a system capable it, so I will happily engage with him if I can offer any of delivering the required operational changes, and we further assistance. will introduce secondary legislation to enable the LLE I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Storey, the noble to function. This, as I have outlined, is the whole pot Baroness, Lady Garden, and other noble Lords that for level 4 to level 5, so there will of course be changes. the purpose of the section of the Bill dealing with Once you release the maximum loan amount for the technical educational qualifications, which includes a academic year, that has a knock-on implication for lot of hospitality within that sector, is to simplify the that which it already funds—mainly the level 6 approach to regulations between the institute and undergraduate degree. We have got to get this right Ofqual. The two bodies already work effectively together. operationally and, unfortunately, it is going to take They are effectively collaborating; we are embedding, more time than we would ideally like. or perhaps futureproofing, it so that they carry on The question of part-time study was raised by the working in the way that they do at the moment. In the noble Baronesses, Lady Lane-Fox and Lady Greengross. legislation, we are extending the technical qualifications I have to say, having been to a graduation at Birkbeck that IfATE can regulate but Ofqual will continue to university, I was overcome by emotion seeing people have independent regulatory oversight of technical getting their degrees, many with their families and qualifications in live delivery. The legislation will bring children there. The decline in part-time study and the treatment of technicals more in line with A-levels adult education is a great shame, and I thank my noble and GCSEs, where the content is subject to regulatory friend Lord Willetts for his humility in accepting that scrutiny. Obviously, we have been talking to Ofqual it is something that we are seeking to put right. One of during preparation of the Bill. the main purposes of this is to ensure that the loan Extending the institute’s power will raise the quality entitlement enables that modular, part-time learning bar and ensure that the majority of these qualifications, to begin again. But I accept the questions raised about like apprenticeships and T-levels, are aligned to employers’ how adults access loans, as opposed to young people; I standards. This will place the employers’ voice at the am sure there are behavioural scientists looking at heart of the system. We are creating a clear progression how we get people to take these loans up. 1881 Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL][LORDS] Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL] 1882

[BARONESS BERRIDGE] and to make them more flexible through accelerated In response to my noble friend Lord Willetts and front-loading and flexi-job apprenticeships and making the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, the LLE will be transfers easier. We also have a specific piece of work available regardless of where you study—it will be on the sector that the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, is “institution blind”, as I think another noble Lord in—that is the creative industries—where apprenticeships said. It will be based on the level of qualification you have been difficult because there is not one employer are studying, not which institution you have selected and people are going from project-based work. to study in. The importance of careers advice was mentioned On the parts of the Bill that relate to initial teacher by many noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord training, as I have outlined to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, Lord Addington and Lord Bichard, the noble Watson, the powers we are taking are to deal with the Baroness, Lady Garden, and my noble friend Lady small part of the market that is not producing the Morgan. Obviously, that is not within the Bill, as far quality that it should for initial teacher training for as I am concerned, because we do not need statutory FE. Once we have worked in collaboration with the underpinning for that. However, I recognise that the sector, if we still need that power, we will use it, but we Bill is sitting in this wider framework of connected want to make sure that the quality is there. issues, and we have given £100 million to the National I believe the questions raised by the noble Lord, Careers Service and the Careers & Enterprise Company Lord Knight, relate to the current review of the ITT this year. market for school-based training, and so I will ask On the perennial issue of cross-government working, officials to write to him, as that is outside the scope of which was mentioned by many noble Lords—particularly this Bill. the noble Lords, Lord Puttnam and Lord Patel, and On that note, there were other matters, as this Bill the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, and my noble sits quite narrowly within a framework of a lot of other friend Lady Stroud—and also came up in one of our interconnected issues. I will deal with a few of those in meetings in advance of today’s Second Reading, we the time I have left. are looking to answer those questions, so I will write I am very grateful again to the noble Lord, Lord to noble Lords about the interconnection of this with Addington, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop the benefits system. It is not straightforward to answer of Leeds for highlighting the importance of special in a Second Reading debate how we can ensure that it educational needs and of using the assistive technology connects properly, but I will write to noble Lords. to support FE learners with SEND. This is an important In relation to the specific question on the Kickstart part of the Bill. Obviously, the figures for those with scheme, I am told here that universal credit claims are SEND show that a higher proportion of them go into eligible if the claimants are aged 16 to 24 and meet the technical or vocational qualifications or into FE relevant conditions. We are working with DWP to institutions. turn those as well into apprenticeships when it is right The noble Lord, Lord Storey, asked about alternative for the employer and that young person. I hope that student finance. We are considering a student finance answers the specific question posed by the noble project that is compliant with Islamic finance principles Lord, Lord Storey, but if it does not, I will write further in parallel with the post-18 review of education and to him. funding. That review is due to conclude alongside the Obviously, I have read the concerns of the noble next multi-year spending review, so we will provide an Lord, Lord Johnson, in the Times, which I think were update then. I know that that is an issue that has been more properly addressed to the Treasury in relation to talked about for a number of years. the finances. The issue was also raised by the noble Of course, many noble Lords raised questions about Baroness, Lady Blackstone, and that will also be passed apprenticeship funding. Again, apprenticeship levy on. funding is not part of the scope of the Bill, but In conclusion, I wholeheartedly agree with the £2.5 billion is available this year and the funds available statement by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, about the to levy-paying employers are available to be transferred importance of the Bill. The imperative is the need now down the supply chain. We are working on the for us to follow through, to fund this and to deliver it. apprenticeship levy to ensure that it is meeting those I beg to move. needs. Most employers who pay the levy might not spend all of their funding, and they can fund apprenticeship Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee starts in smaller employers. We will make improvements of the Whole House. to support employers offering more apprenticeships House adjourned at 8.09 pm. GC 377 Arrangement of Business[15 JUNE 2021] Climate Change Act 2008 Order 2021 GC 378

Grand Committee Turning to the topic of today’s debate, under the Climate Change Act 2008 the Government must set a Tuesday 15 June 2021 limit on the number of international carbon units that can be credited to the net UK carbon account for each The Grand Committee met in a hybrid proceeding. budgetary period. These carbon credits represent the reduction or removal of greenhouse gas emissions 2.30 pm overseas. The legislation we are debating today sets a limit on the net number of international carbon credits that may be used to meet the fourth carbon budget, Arrangement of Business which runs from 2023 to 2027. The Climate Change Announcement Act, passed with near unanimous support in this House, allows for the flexibility of using carbon credits to meet a carbon budget. The order will set the credit 2.30 pm limit for the fourth carbon budget at 55 million tonnes The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Healy of carbon dioxide equivalent, which is about 2.8% of of Primrose Hill) (Lab): My Lords, the hybrid Grand the total carbon budget. This is the same amount of Committee will now begin. Some Members are here in flexibility as the House agreed for the second and third person, others are participating remotely,but all Members carbon budget credit limit orders. However, I highlight will be treated equally. I ask Members in the Room to that this legislation does not commit the UK Government respect social distancing. If the capacity of the Committee to buying international credits: as we have witnessed Room is exceeded or other safety requirements are with previous carbon budgets, the Government have a breached, I will immediately adjourn the Committee. strong track record of delivering clean growth and The time limit on the first debate is one hour. have not used any of our allowances on other budgets to date. We continue to put forward ambitious plans to Climate Change Act 2008 (Credit Limit) meet future carbon budgets, including through our Order 2021 bold sector strategies, and are committed to meeting Considered in Grand Committee our world-leading targets through domestic action. Noble Lords should be aware that the credit limit set 2.31 pm through this legislation excludes any net use of credits that result from the operation of the European Union Moved by Lord Callanan Emissions Trading Scheme. The exclusion is required because, while the UK Emissions Trading Scheme That the Grand Committee do consider the Climate replaced the UK’s participation in the EU ETS on Change Act 2008 (Credit Limit) Order 2021. 1 January 2021, Northern Ireland electricity generators Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Secondary continue to participate in the EU ETS and will therefore Legislation Scrutiny Committee receive EU ETS allowances within the fourth budgetary period. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department The role of the Climate Change Committee in forBusiness,EnergyandIndustrialStrategy(LordCallanan) providing independent expert advice to government (Con): My Lords, I beg to move that this order, which on climate change mitigation and adaptation is widely was laid before the House on 13 May 2021, be approved. accepted as global best practice. The Government’s net zero target covers the whole of the UK, and all The question of how we act on climate change is four parts of the union have an integral role to play in perhaps one of the most pressing issues of our time. delivering the Government’s carbon budgets leading Climate change is here—this Government absolutely up to 2050. As such, we of course also work closely accept that and are determined that the UK play its with our partners in the devolved Administrations in part in upholding the Paris Agreement and driving down order to achieve our climate goals. our own greenhouse gas emissions. This Government are committed to decarbonising the UK economy In determining the appropriate credit limit for the while of course, at the same time, driving economic fourth carbon budget, which is the subject of the growth, and to meeting our ambitious targets for net present discussion, the Government have considered zero emissions by 2050. Wewere the first major economy the advice of the Climate Change Committee and the in the world to set a legally binding target to reach net views of the devolved Administrations. All parties agree zero carbon emissions across our economy by 2050, that the purchase of international credits should not and we have shown that rapid progress on decarbonisation replace domestic abatement when delivering our net is possible alongside a thriving economy. Our emissions zero target. While the Climate Change Committee and are down by almost 44% across the last 30 years and the devolved Administrations recommended a zero-credit our economy has grown by 78% during the same limit, the Government have concluded that it is best to period. We are currently in the process of reaching a maintain a small amount of flexibility over the fourth significant milestone in approving legislation to enshrine carbon budget period. the UK’s sixth carbon budget in law, proposing a As a Government, we have undertaken our own target that would reduce greenhouse gas emissions by robust analysis to validate our position and have 78% by 2035, compared to 1990 levels. This is a huge considered the range of factors required by the Act, commitment and one which the Government are working including the economic, fiscal, social, scientific and flat out to achieve. international circumstances. Wejudge that this flexibility GC 379 Climate Change Act 2008 Order 2021[LORDS] Climate Change Act 2008 Order 2021 GC 380

[LORD CALLANAN] 2.40 pm will continue to ensure that the Government can best Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]: My Lords, deliver our carbon targets more effectively and be resilient it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord to unexpected changes in future emissions. Bradshaw, who has such a breadth of knowledge in Weare extremely grateful to our independent advisers this area, particularly in the realm of transport. for their expert analysis and advice, and to the devolved Administrations for their valuable ongoing engagement. I thank my noble friend the Minister for setting out We look forward to working closely on the fundamental the effect of this order. Before I turn to it, I congratulate decisions that we will need to take over the coming the Government on adopting the sixth carbon budget years in order to drive forward this progress. from the Climate Change Committee, covering the five-year period from 2033 to 2037. Doing so will set The Government recognise the significant advantages in law the ambition of slashing emissions by 78% by that the net zero transition can bring, in addition to 2035, based on 1990 emissions levels. Also, significantly, the essential benefits of ending our contribution to this carbon budget will incorporate the UK’s share of global warming. Now is the time to double down and international aviation and shipping emissions for the decrease our emissions further and faster. Ahead of first time; that is most important. Indeed, this was an COP 26, we will bring forward further bold proposals, issue at Paris and since. I warmly welcome this. including our net zero strategy, to cut emissions and create new jobs and industries across the whole country, The budget keeps us on track with the Paris Agreement going further and faster towards building a stronger, goals. It is important to acknowledge the progress that more resilient future and protecting our planet for this has been made. We have overachieved against the first generation and those to come. and second carbon budgets, and we are on target to As for the legislation for debate today,the Government’s outperform against the third. In the light of the significant sustained drive ensures that we are on track for the cuts in greenhouse gases across the economy, in industry fourth carbon budget. However, as we have outlined, in particular and in the power sector, it is worth pausing in our view it is still prudent to allow ourselves a small to congratulate the Government on the success we amount of flexibility in the future in order to manage have had. It is heartening, too, to see the G7 in a better the uncertainty in emissions projections and to continue place on this following strong leadership from President to deliver emissions reductions in the most prudent Biden and others—including, indeed, our own Prime and fair manner for the whole of the UK. I therefore Minister. commend this order to the House. The order relates to the fourth carbon budget, from 2023-27. It limits the net use of carbon units for this 2.37 pm budgetary period to 55 million carbon units or 55 million Lord Bradshaw (LD) [V]: My Lords, the Government tonnes of carbon dioxide. That sounds concerning, are to be congratulated on the progress they are making but it follows the approach taken in previous budgets, so far and on not drawing down credits from abroad. and we have not used those carbon units at all. I However, the going might get tougher now. We have understand that—it provides headroom for flexibility; probably taken into account quite a lot of the low-hanging the only danger, of course, is that it sends out a slightly fruit, and getting nearer to the target will demand more contrary signal. On the other hand, it is most important and more effort. that Governments are judged by what they do. Judged on the actions, we have a good story to tell, although The resistance of the transport industry to economy more needs to be done. in CO2 is notorious. Interestingly, in a referendum this weekend the Swiss voted not to take on board some of The Minister and the Government have announced the tougher decisions that need to be made if people that they do not intend to use this facility, intending really are going to economise in the use of transport. instead, as in previous budgets, to draw solely on Economy is particularly needed in air transport and in domestic action to fulfil the ambitious budgets that diesel and petrol-fuelled motor transport. have been set. I accept totally that this is the Government’s The Minister said that we are keeping some overseas intention, and they are likely to achieve that aim based credits at our disposal, but could he venture to suggest on past action. I support that flexibility.I accept that there whether this will really happen? If we undertake to is an argument about the signal sent, but it is more plant 2 million acres of forest in the United Kingdom, important that we have that flexibility. wecanbefairlycertainthatthatwillbedoneandmeasured. Ahead of COP 26, can the Minister please seek to If we are relying on other countries to take carbon-hungry ensure positive action in other areas, in particular technologies or practices out of commission, it will be promotingelectriccars,busesandotherformsof transport, much more difficult to monitor whether they actually and battery storage and production? That is important do so and whether the climate in fact ends up benefiting. for achieving our climate change aims, but it would also So, it is good to see that we will rely more on boost the economy.This follows on from the Stern report ourselves, because that is only prudent for an economy during the 2000s, and subsequently it has become clear that prides itself on being at the forefront in this that it is possible to achieve positive growth at the same regard. However, if the going is to get harder and as time as reducing emissions, as the Government have decisions become more difficult—for example, if there demonstrated. But it is important that we press ahead are to be restrictions on how and when people use their with the electric transport market and the battery storage cars—we will come up against resistance.The Government market in particular, in which we can be world leaders. will need great resolve if they are to stick to their guns I want to ask the Minister about two issues. He and make sure that we secure the anticipated carbon touched on both but I want to push him a little reductions. further, if I may. First, when will we receive the carbon GC 381 Climate Change Act 2008 Order 2021[15 JUNE 2021] Climate Change Act 2008 Order 2021 GC 382 budget for discussion in the House,with a view to ensuring fire brigade that says, “We’re going to let these 55 houses that it is put into legislation? Are we still going to get it burn to the ground, but it’s okay because we’ve paid by the end of June, as originally intended? If not, for 55 houses in other countries to be saved—and it’s when can we expect it? Secondly, will Northern Ireland, cheaper anyway”. That is the most appalling way to to which the Minister referred, continue to be treated run a country and an even worse way of trying to deal separately? I was both an Energy Minister and in the with runaway climate change, which is what we are facing. Northern Ireland Office, so I know that the Northern It is absurd to try to trade these things when we should Ireland market is separate. Will a separate position for all be racing towards net zero across the world. Northern Ireland present any particular challenges The Government talk about showing global leadership, regarding the EU ETS system? but then they create loopholes to avoid doing much In conclusion, I am keen to encourage the Government of anything. I accept that they have made moves in to take stronger action ahead of COP 26. We are in a the right direction, including adding shipping and strong position but clearly, more needs to be done. aviation when counting CO2 emissions, but how are Overachieving in this area is certainly not a bad thing. other countries going to look up to this Government I strongly support the order before us. on anything to do with climate change when they will not listen to their own Climate Change Committee, 2.46 pm which gives them independent expert advice? Quite Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): That was a honestly, the Government are cheating the system, very interesting introduction from the Minister. I would and I think it is appalling. Each time I get a glimmer of like to explain the whole concept of urging economic hope that this Government understand the real emergency growth when we live on a planet with finite resources, we are facing and the damage it could do to all of us, but I will have to leave that for another day. I would the rest of the planet and every economy worldwide, like to tackle quite a lot of what the noble Lord, Lord my hopes are dashed by statutory instruments such as Bourne, said. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said this. that making reductions is going to require more effort, which is absolutely true. He also asked whether we can 2.51 pm trust other countries’ measurements—that is a perfectly Lord Oates (LD): My Lords, I thank the Minister true point—and talked about a stronger, more resilient for his introduction to this statutory instrument, which future. I would argue that this Government do not could not have been clearer. Its clarity is the reason I have a clue how to get us to that future. It is going to oppose the order. It is clear that it is unnecessary, take government resolve, the noble Lord said. Resolve ill-advised and sends precisely the wrong messages is not something this Government are very good at. about what we as a nation will do when the going gets They are very good at making promises—and at breaking tough on meeting our climate change targets. As the them. noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and other noble Lords The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, congratulated the have said, and as the Minister pointed out, it is opposed Climate Change Committee on its budget and said by the Climate Change Committee, the Government that the Government had overachieved. They overachieved of Scotland and the Government of Wales. by cheating, essentially, by not including shipping or The Government have two arguments that they aviation. That is how they cut carbon emissions. Of deploy in favour of these 55 million credits. First, they course, they have now included those, so we might say they are on track to meet the fourth carbon budget, actually get some more accurate figures. The noble but they need to have flexibility just in case they do Lord also mentioned the G7 and said how wonderful not. The Minister told us that 55 million credits were the Government were. The most leaderly thing I saw at in place for the second and third carbon budgets. the G7 was President Macron telling the UK to honour While I think there should be zero credits, in line with its treaty promises. Let us hope that the Government the views of the Climate Change Committee, the least will do so. the Government could have done is to begin to ratchet For me, this statutory instrument is nothing more them down as a proportion of the budget. The Minister than an accounting trick that takes us further away said that they represented 2.8% of the budget; he could from tackling the climate emergency and runaway have brought that down to 1% or 1.5%, but he and the global heating. The Government should be ashamed Government have chosen not to do and are sending of themselves for not listening to the Committee on very worrying signals about what they will do. Climate Change, which said that these credits should The Minister said, as the Explanatory Memorandum be set at zero, as the Minister said. However, the points out at paragraph 7.5, that the UK is currently Government knew better and instead of listening to projected to meet the fourth carbon budget. The Climate what the Minister called “independent, expert advice” Change Committee says that the Government are not from the committee, chose to do their own “robust on track to meet the fourth or the fifth carbon budget, analysis” of the situation and came up with a different so I wonder whether he can explain that discrepancy answer. Which part of government did that robust and who is advising the Government on their projections analysis? I would really like to know, so that I can target to meet the climate change budget. my comments a little more closely. The second argument that the Government use is: So, instead of following the advice, which was to set “The ability to purchase credits could also enable the UK to these limits at zero, the Government have allowed for support mitigation action in developing countries. A purchase of an additional 55 million tonnes of CO2 to be spewed credits would contribute to the development of a global carbon into the UK atmosphere and then bought back from market, which would reduce the global cost of action on climate other countries. Essentially, the Government are like a change.” GC 383 Climate Change Act 2008 Order 2021[LORDS] Climate Change Act 2008 Order 2021 GC 384

[LORD OATES] Lord Bradshaw,and done the least development possible, This is of course an utterly spurious argument. Nothing paring back the budget and policies from necessary would prevent the Government, if they set the credit support for climate action. limit at zero, purchasing credits and contributing to The Government have now responded on the supporting developing countries in this way.This measure realisation of the climate emergency by setting net-zero is a “get out of jail free” card for the Government targets for 2050 in accordance with the Paris Agreement when they start finding things difficult, and it is clear to limit global warming, but they continue with self- that things are going to be much more difficult politically congratulatory rhetoric, setting targets without clear if we are to meet our targets. Weall know that. Weknow action plans. As we discussed last week, they must that the decarbonisation of our economy to date has come forward with policies, plans and strategies and been driven largely by the decarbonisation of the power engage in meeting these budget commitments. sector. Although that has had impacts on the public, It must be recognised that this order, which sets the they have been indirect, and they are very different traditional credit limit, goes against the advice of the from what will happen as we move forward. Climate Change Committee, which was again endorsed We absolutely need a signal of resolution from the by the devolved Administrations. That advice was to Government and not a signal that they have a way out set a nil credit limit—that is, not to allow the purchase of this, not least because we are talking here about the of carbon credits from overseas. Yes, none has been fourth carbon budget, which, as I have said, the Climate required in the past, but the CCC is right in its Change Committee says we are not on track to meet. determination that the UK must meet its carbon emissions The fifth and sixth carbon budgets are much more reductionsdomestically.Itrecommendedthatinternational demanding. If the Government are giving themselves emissions credits should not be allowed to be used to wriggle room already on these budgets, it sends a very meet the fourth carbon budget and, furthermore, that worrying signal. any surplus from the third carbon budget should not There is an Arab proverb which I often quote in the be carried forward. context of climate change, because it is very apposite: It is recognised that the UK Government intend to commitments are cloud, but implementation is rain. meet the new NDC and the 2030 target without the This Government are extremely good at making use of international credits. Inventory uncertainty commitments; they are extremely poor at bringing projections and forecast inaccuracies are also recognised forward the actions needed to implement them. Not —they have always existed—but it is now time for only are they bad at acting to implement them; they clear actions, real leadership and determined signalling often do the opposite. Whether it is air passenger duty, that the UK is meeting its obligations entirely through coal mines or in other areas, not only do they not act its own domestic obligations, as well as now taking the but they do not signal the action that is needed. I hope lead on international aviation and shipping. that we can retain the cross-party consensus that existed I have just one question on the future development when we set these targets, so that we can act to meet of policy.One necessary priority must be the development them. But we all need to work together and show absolute of batteries and energy storage; the noble Lord, Lord commitment to doing that, and we must not give Bourne, identified this in his appreciation of this order. ourselves wriggle room to get out of the commitments Can the Minister outline where and in which strategy we have made. and plan this priority will be answered by government plans,among the many opportunities they have identified? 2.57 pm Lord Grantchester (Lab): Once again, the Committee The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Healy meets to consider important matters concerning climate of Primrose Hill) (Lab): I call the Minister. Oh—my change. I thank the Minister for his explanation of the apologies. order before us. It follows the well-worn pathway of setting credit limits for the first three carbon budgets Lord Grantchester (Lab): I am nearly finished. of 55 million metric tonnes of CO2 equivalent as flexibility The reasons given in the Explanatory Memorandum insurance in meeting the UK’s legal obligations. As we for continuing with budgetary insurance are no longer have seen, there has been no need to utilise these credits convincing. Sufficient flexibility must be managed through for the first two carbon budgets, and the UK is on target domestic commitments; offsetting is not a sustainable to meet the third carbon budget. The Government are way forward. Unforeseen circumstances cannot provide to be congratulated on that. They are also to be a justification, and the UK has not previously contributed congratulated on accepting the advice of the Climate to the development of the global carbon market with Change Committee on setting the carbon budgets. any impact. The opportunity to purchase credits will Last week, the committee approved a sixth carbon budget only diminish as the world steps up with commitments for the years 2032 to 2037. This CCC advice was endorsed to decarbonise. Consider the damage that would ensue also by the devolved Administrations. should the Government need to go ahead with a However, there, the congratulations must end. It carbon credit. They must self-insure and develop robust has not been generally accepted, as the noble Lord, policies and plans to meet all the carbon budgets with Lord Oates, queried, that the Government are on clarity and certainty. course to meet the fourth and fifth carbon budgets This is a missed opportunity that the Government and they have had to have a reset, with additional could have taken as a decisive step, in this decisive targets, to get back on track, as we discussed last decade, toward emissions reductions. This conclusion week. The Government have gathered in the low-hanging was also recognised by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, fruit from earlier years, referred to by the noble Lord, in her remarks. The 2030 NDCs submitted at the GC 385 Climate Change Act 2008 Order 2021[15 JUNE 2021] Climate Change Act 2008 Order 2021 GC 386

UNFCCC last December should have set the tone. I have addressed a number of my noble friend Lord The sixth carbon budget will require more ambition Bourne’s questions, but I am sorry to tell him that he and the pace of change to accelerate over the coming missed the debate on the most recent carbon budget. years. The confidence that could have been set by a It was debated in this House last week; the noble zero-credit limit in this order needs to be corrected by Lords, Lord Oates and Lord Grantchester,were present, the determination and announcement of policy with a couple of other Peers. It still has to go to the developments before COP 26 later this year. I look House of Commons, but I am afraid that my noble forward to seeing the UK outperform and deliver. friend has missed his opportunity to contribute to that Labour understands the size of the task. The challenge one. is set. On Northern Ireland and the emissions trading scheme, Northern Ireland power plants have remained 3.03 pm in the ETS under the Northern Ireland protocol, but Lord Callanan (Con): First, I thank all noble Lords all other emissions in Northern Ireland remain under for their extremely valuable contributions to this debate. the UK Government’s coverage. This year,we in the UK find ourselves in the privileged The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, asked why we position of being the president of the G7 and the host chose not to set a credit limit at zero tonnes, as was of COP26.Wearedeterminedtousethesekeyinternational recommended by the Climate Change Committee. I moments, as noble Lords saw at the G7 earlier this can tell her that the Government intend to meet our week, to promote ambitious action to deliver the net-zero target and our interim carbon budgets through transformationalchangerequiredbytheParisAgreement. cutting our domestic carbon emissions. As I said In line with this, it is imperative that we continue to be earlier, we are simply choosing to maintain the limited bold and ambitious in not only our commitments but tools that we already have under the Climate Change our actions, as the noble Lord, Lord Oates, pointed Act to ensure that we can deliver on our carbon out, to deliver progress against climate change. targets at the lowest possible cost, including the option To reiterate what I said earlier, our position remains of using international credits. Our internal analysis that the Government intend to meet all our targets reaffirmed that this level is suitable to account for any through domestic abatement. International credits merely potential uncertainties. afford us a potential flexibility to ensure a cost-effective The noble Lord, Lord Oates, implied that we could approach to reducing carbon emissions when managing have sought to deliver a lower level for the credit limit uncertainty in historic and future emissions. order. Again, I remind him that our analysis indicates As usual, we have had a very interesting debate. I that any lower level might not provide sufficient flexibility will pick up on some of the points raised. Weacknowledge to manage the uncertainty associated with the inventory the progress pointed to by the noble Lord, Lord using only credits. Bradshaw, and other noble Lords, including my noble The noble Lords, Lord Oates and Lord Grantchester, friend Lord Bourne, and the success we have had so asked whether the Government are on track to meet far in decarbonising the UK economy to date. Many carbon budgets 4 and 5. We are taking decisive action developing countries plan to sell credits in future, but to ensure that we deliver on both. Ahead of COP 26, my noble friend is absolutely right that these must be we will set out our ambitious plans across key sectors of the very highest quality.Weare using our international of the economy, such as the energy White Paper and climate finance to ensure that developing countries the industrial decarbonisation strategy. These will build have the capacity to meet this bar and access finance on the strong recent progress that we set out in the through the carbon market. 10-point plan and will culminate with the net-zero On the action that the Government are taking to strategy later in the year. decarbonise transport, which my noble friend Lord The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked about Bourne also asked about, we recently announced that future carbon budgets. I remind him that this current the UK is embarking on a comprehensive transport legislation only concerns carbon budget 4, of course. decarbonisation plan. This will be a bold, ambitious We will consider the limit for carbon budgets 5 and 6 programme of the co-ordinated action needed to end at the appropriate times in the future, using analysis the UK’s transport greenhouse gas emissions by 2030 that is relevant to the context at the time. and, at the same time, ensure that the transport sector The noble Lord also raised the use of other flexibilities plays its part in delivering our legally binding carbon in the Climate Change Act 2008. In response, I want budgets. The plan will think in terms of not only to make it clear that we have no intention of using any modes of transport but technology and places. Part 1 other flexibilities afforded to us through the Act and of the plan was published in March 2020, with part 2, we intend to meet our ambitious targets purely through containing policies and proposals,expected to be published domestic action. shortly. I conclude by saying that, as I mentioned in my We will also commit to communicating our public opening speech, this statutory instrument effectively engagement approach to our net-zero strategy to generate continues the status quo, setting the same credit limit widespread awareness, and, hopefully,acceptance, across that we have held but not used for carbon budgets 1 to the UK, because achieving the net-zero target will be a 3. This status quo has allowed the Government to shared endeavour requiring action from everyone in deliver world-leading emissions reductions and encourage society—people, businesses and government. Therefore, similar ambition in other countries across the world. I we are increasing our work on public engagement on therefore commend this draft order to the Committee. net zero, both in communicating the challenge and in giving people a say on shaping future policies. Motion agreed. GC 387 Climate Change Act 2008 Order 2021[LORDS] Conformity Assessment Etc. Regs. 2021 GC 388

The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Healy be assessed to ensure that they meet requirements in of Primrose Hill) (Lab): The Grand Committee stands that legislation; sometimes, this assessment is required adjourned. I remind Members to sanitise their desks to be done by third parties. MRAs can reduce barriers and chairs before leaving the Room. by allowing this conformity assessment to be undertaken by a body based in the UK for export to the relevant 3.10 pm country. We make the same arrangements for our partners under the agreement so that procedures carried Sitting suspended. out by recognised overseas CABs are accepted for our domestic regulations. Arrangement of Business This SI also implements one aspect of the UK’s free Announcement trade agreements in the broader trade continuity 3.26 pm programme. As part of the UK-Japan Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, we will give greater The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness flexibility to importers of a traditional Japanese spirit Healy of Primrose Hill) (Lab): My Lords, the hybrid called single-distilled Sho-chū. The SI amends specified Grand Committee will now resume. Some Members quantity requirements applying in Great Britain so are here in person, others are participating remotely, that bottles of single-distilled Sho-chū may be placed but all Members will be treated equally. I ask Members on the market in Great Britain in one of the traditional in the Room to respect social distancing. If the capacity Japanese bottle sizes of 900 millilitres. of the Committee Room is exceeded or other safety requirements are breached, I will immediately adjourn Let me now address each of these areas in more the Committee. The time limit for the following debate detail, starting with the measures we are taking both is one hour. to recognise overseas bodies and to appoint UK bodies under these MRAs before moving on to the measures we are taking for single-distilled Sho-chū bottle sizes. Conformity Assessment (Mutual To begin, let me address provisions for goods in Recognition Agreements) and Weights and scope of the UK’s MRAs that are assessed by UK Measures (Intoxicating Liquor) conformity assessment bodies for export overseas. This (Amendment) Regulations 2021 SI provides for the Secretary of State to designate Considered in Grand Committee CABs as competent to assess that certain goods comply with the regulatory requirements of our partners under 3.26 pm the MRAs as set out in a schedule to the SI. Moved by Lord Callanan For example, this means that where a UK-based CAB would like to be recognised by the Australian ThattheGrandCommitteedoconsidertheConformity authorities as capable to assess goods under Australian Assessment (Mutual Recognition Agreements) and machinery requirements, the body can apply to UKAS, WeightsandMeasures(IntoxicatingLiquor)(Amendment) the United Kingdom Accreditation Service, to be Regulations 2021. accredited as fit to test against those Australian Relevant document: 2nd Report from the Secondary requirements. The Secretary of State may then designate Legislation Scrutiny Committee the body under the UK’s MRA with Australia to assess machinery for export to Australia. As a result, a TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department UK manufacturer that uses the services of that UK forBusiness,EnergyandIndustrialStrategy(LordCallanan) CAB can now use the same body to do its accreditation (Con): My Lords, I beg to move that these regulations, for the Australian market and does not need to identify which were laid before the House on 12 May 2021, be and start contracting with a CAB actually operating approved. in Australia. Therefore, manufacturers are able to place The statutory instrument we are debating today products on the Australian market more cost-effectively, implements important aspects of international trade potentially passing those savings on to consumers. agreements within the Government’s trade continuity I now move on to consider provisions for goods programme, ensuring continuity for UK businesses. coming into the UK. Under the MRAs, the UK This includes certain mutual recognition agreements recognises the results of conformity assessment procedures that have been signed with the USA, Australia and carried out by recognised overseas CABs against domestic New Zealand along with a free trade agreement with regulations. This SI makes it clear that assessments Korea that contains relevant conformity assessment carried out by a recognised body based in one of our provisions. The UK-Japan Comprehensive Economic partner countries should be treated as equivalent to Partnership Agreement and the UK-Canada Trade those carried out by a UK-approved body when relevant Continuity Agreement also include protocols on the products are sold in Great Britain. These regulations mutual recognition of conformity assessment. From do not change the detail of the requirements for hereon in, I will refer to the mutual recognition elements third-party assessment, nor do they amend any of all of these agreements as MRAs. requirements related to a product’s specifications. This These MRAs support trade in goods between the means that the UK will maintain its robust product UK and its partners by reducing technical barriers to safety protections while continuing to reduce barriers trade. Importantly, they do so in a way that protects to trade with our partners. The benefits are potentially the UK’s robust product safety system. The UK’s significant here: trade with our MRA partners in product safety legislation requires certain products to radio equipment alone amounted to nearly £2 billion GC 389 Conformity Assessment Etc. Regs. 2021[15 JUNE 2021] Conformity Assessment Etc. Regs. 2021 GC 390 in 2019, although, of course, not all of these products In conclusion, we are introducing these regulations will have required conformity assessment by a third to give effect to provisions which keep our barriers party. to trade low with some of our significant trading The regulations also provide for the Secretary of partners. As I have said, we do this while preserving State to create a register of CABs that the UK recognises our robust protections for product safety,as a responsible under the MRAs, defined as MRA bodies. This is Government. This SI will provide certainty on the communicated via the UK Market CAB database, a UK’s approach to recognising and designating CABs publicly available resource that can be used by businesses for certain products under the MRAs, as well as making necessary amendments to allow the 900-millilitre and regulators to verify quickly the status of CABs. - ū These regulations also provide for Canadian accreditation bottle size of single-distilled Shoch to be placed on bodies recognised by the UK under the UK-Canada the market in Great Britain. I therefore commend TradeContinuityAgreementtobelistedontheGovernment’s these regulations to the House. website. 3.35 pm This SI also provides that the Secretary of State, or Lord Lansley (Con): My Lords, I am glad to follow a person authorised to act on their behalf, may disclose my noble friend the Minister, who set out the purposes information to the other party to an MRA where of these regulations fully and clearly. First, I draw required by an MRA. For example, we may communicate attention to the register of interests in that I am the information regarding goods from the USA which UK co-chairman of the UK-Japan 21st Century Group. have been suspended by UK enforcement authorities, As that may imply, I wish to speak only to Part 3 of as part of our co-operation commitments in the MRA these regulations, which relates to Sho-chū. with the USA. Disclosure will be made in accordance I raised an issue relating to this towards the conclusion with data protection legislation. of the passage of the then Trade Bill—now the Trade This SI provides for a product known as single-distilled Act 2021—because of the implications of timing. - Sho-chū, a spirit which is single distilled, produced by Before I get to that, my noble friend explained Shochū, pot still and bottled in Japan, to be placed on the which is a distilled liquor that is stronger than sake but market in Great Britain in an additional bottle size, not as strong as whisky. As he said, it is an artisanal 900 millilitres. Prior to the UK-Japan Comprehensive product in Japan. The bottles in which it is prepared Economic Partnership Agreement, single-distilled Sho-chū and sold there are an integral part of its overall bottled in Japan had been permitted in Great Britain, presentation, so I completely understand why this was but only in quantities of 720 millilitres or 1,800 millilitres, something that our Japanese friends particularly wanted in addition to the usual specified quantities for prepacked to see made available in this country in the same way spirits. Providing for sale of this traditional bottle size as it would be sold and marketed in Japan. was very important to Japan during negotiations of For those who are of a certain turn of mind, I the UK-Japan Comprehensive Economic Partnership realise that I have 10 minutes but I promise not to take Agreement. This artisanal product is already on sale up all the time available. One of the perversities of our across the UK in other bottle sizes, so this change Hybrid Sittings is that the less you have to say, the should not have a significant impact on consumers in more time you have to say it. Last week, I had to talk Great Britain. about the carbon budget in seven minutes, but by - ū I shall now speak to the territorial scope of these contrast I now have 10 minutes to talk about Shoch . regulations. For some provisions, the regulations will Such is life. make amendments for Great Britain only, while others Those with an interest in the media may recall the extend to the whole of the UK. Regulations 4 and 5, 1956 American film “The Teahouse of the August relating to recognition of conformity assessment by Moon”, with Marlon Brando and Glenn Ford, which relevant overseas CABs, extend to Great Britain only. looked in a whimsical way at the American occupation of Japan after the war. Of course, the teahouse in fact Northern Ireland will continue to recognise the results - of conformity assessment procedures done under the purveyed not tea but sweet potato Shochū—and a mutual recognition agreements between the EU and successful film it was, too. the relevant third country. This is in accordance with The question that came up in the Trade Bill debates the terms of the Northern Ireland protocol to the was that, in the UK-Japan Comprehensive Economic withdrawal agreement. Regulation 6, relating to the Partnership Agreement, the relevant Annexe 2-D—for Secretary of State’s power to designate UK-based the benefit of those who want to go and look for it, it bodies under these agreements, will extend to the is on page 693 of the agreement—makes it clear that whole of the UK. CABs across the UK can therefore the United Kingdom is obligated to make the traditional - be designated under the MRAs. bottle of five go available in the United Kingdom; one go- is 180 millilitres, so five go- is the 900-millilitre bottles. Regulation 7, relating to information sharing, will The relevant footnote to that obligation says: also extend to the whole of the UK, to enable the “The United Kingdom shall expeditiously take necessary steps Secretary of State to share relevant information required to ensure the fulfilment of this obligation and shall notify Japan under the MRAs. Regulations 8 and 9, amending the no later than 90 days after the date of entry into force of this permitted bottle sizes for single-distilled Sho-chū, extends Agreement of the completion of its domestic procedures necessary to Great Britain only. In accordance with the Northern for the fulfilment of this obligation.” Ireland protocol, single-distilled Sho-chū will continue The point at issue then was that the Trade Bill was to be permitted on the Northern Ireland market in going beyond 90 days. In the event, the 90 days were 720-millilitre and 1,800-millilitre bottle sizes, in addition up on 30 March this year, the Trade Bill did not to the usual specified quantities for prepacked spirits. receive Royal Assent until 29 April, these regulations GC 391 Conformity Assessment Etc. Regs. 2021[LORDS] Conformity Assessment Etc. Regs. 2021 GC 392

[LORD LANSLEY] In relation to UK policy on conformity assessment was laid on 12 May and we are approving them on and accreditation of the situation under EU law as it 15 June. I think no harm is done, and our Japanese applies in NI, the regulations set out the requirements friends have been entirely understanding at each stage for the accreditation of market surveillance as it applies that we have trespassed beyond the 90 days and of why in EU law to the Northern Ireland protocol. That we have done so. For the benefit of those writing trade continues to be the basis for accreditation policy. If agreements in future, it would probably be best if they there are any changes to the UK policy in future, will put timetables in and related them to the completion they require an assessment of the implications of any of the parliamentary procedures rather than the entry trade barriers between Great Britain and Northern into force because the entry into force was done under Ireland, and how is that being considered? a provisional application prior to parliamentary scrutiny. In respect of registers of MRA bodies, the statutory The only other point I want to make is that, as my instrument states: noble friend said, there is a different territorial aspect “The Secretary of State may … compile and maintain a to this. By virtue of the Northern Ireland protocol, we register of … MRA bodies … their MRA body identification cannot in this agreement, which is a continuity-plus numbers … the activities for which they have been designated; agreement, vary the rules as they apply in the European and … any restriction on those activities”. Union single market, so the traditional five-go- bottle Can the Minister confirm where he has outlined, or will be available in Great Britain but will not be whether he will outline, the activities for which MRA available in Northern Ireland. As it happens, this is bodies have been designated and what restrictions not strictly consistent with the text of the UK-Japan there are on those activities? The Secretary of State Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, which will also be able to designate a conformity assessment states: body—CAB—to assess products against other countries’ “Single distilled shochu … produced by pot still and bottled in requirements.WhatcriteriawilltheMinisterusetoconsider Japan, shall be allowed to be placed on the market of the United whether the body is capable of fulfilling those functions Kingdom in traditional bottles of four go … five go … or one and to ensure that it meets the requirements of a sho.” designated body? What parliamentary oversight will One sho- is 1,800 millilitres. There is a discontinuity that body have? between the text of the agreement, the treaty as such The statutory instrument states: and what we are able to fulfil in our domestic procedures. “To the extent that these Regulations contain provision in the That is a pity. Given that this is the first time we have areas of the protection of human or animal life or health or had a continuity-plus agreement implemented into environmental protection, the provision is consistent with maintaining legislation, it has in a very modest way illustrated the UK levels of statutory protection in that area.” complexity of the problems that we will have to encounter However, in Section 2(7) of the Trade Act, UK statutory if the Northern Ireland protocol continues to impose protection also extends to these kinds of distinctions between the Great Britain “plant life or health … animal welfare … employment and market and the Northern Ireland market. labour”. Do these regulations not cover those areas? 3.42 pm The Explanatory Memorandum states: Lord Lennie (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I am grateful to “The main direct cost to business will be the familiarisation the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, for cost associated with these Regulations; these are a one-off cost, their contributions thus far to this debate. estimated at £205,000.” As we have heard, these regulations give effect to Does this fall equally on large companies and SMEs? mutual recognition agreements between the UK and the On divergence, the UK MRAs replicate the previous USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Korea EU MRAs in substance, with the only substantive and Japan. The regulations also allow specific products divergence from the EU being in the permission to assessed by those bodies in countries recognised under allow the additional bottle size for single-distilled Sho-chū. MRAs to be placed on the market in Great Britain This poses the broader question of whether the UK and enable the Secretary of State to designate and could take a different approach to conformity assessments monitor UK conformity assessment bodies to assess in future. products against the other party’s requirements. On 1 January 2021, the UK introduced its own The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee noted product safety mark, which broadly mirrors the EU’s that these regulations are the first use of the power to CE mark. According to the law firm Bird & Bird, the implement free trade agreements under Sections 2 and UK conformity assessment regime 4 of the Trade Act 2021. As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, “follows essentially the same principles as the previous CE marking commented, the instrument also implements Annexe 2-D regime, but with the safety and compliance standards, authorised of the UK-Japan Comprehensive Economic Partnership representative/responsible person and notified body requirements Agreement by allowing single-distilled Sho-chū to be all now being valid for the UK only.” placed on the market in the UK in the new quantity of Despite being a UK ask, the EU-UK deal did not 900 millilitres. I recognise that this an important statutory include an agreement on the mutual recognition of instrument for both businesses and consumers, with conformity assessments. This means that most goods continuity and certainty even more important now as produced in the UK that require certification for sale we look ahead to 19 July and our hopes for the in the EU will have to go through a secondary conformity beginning of the end of the current restrictions. I assessment in the EU in order to be eligible for export, would therefore be grateful if the Minister could provide resulting in extra costs to trade with our main trading some clarity on a few areas. partner. A lack of MRAs is unusual for comparable GC 393 Conformity Assessment Etc. Regs. 2021[15 JUNE 2021] CMO Regulations 2021 GC 394 deals such as those between the EU and Japan, Canada make its own policy decisions on conformity assessment and Switzerland, which all have MRAs. Even countries and accreditation now that we have left the EU. Any such as Australia and the US, which do not have trade future changes would be based on the UK’s best deals with the EU, have MRAs. Does the Minister interests, with due consideration, of course, of any regret not having an MRA in the TCA? Will the UK impact on the UK’s internal market. The noble Lord continue to share information on CABs with the EU? asked about the trade and co-operation agreement I look forward to the Minister’s response. with the EU. Despite the UK ask, the EU-UK deal did not include an MRA. This is regrettable and will 3.48 pm result in an extra cost to trade. As he noted, the UK Lord Callanan (Con): My Lords, first, I thank both sought such an agreement, but we were unable to secure noble Lords for their valuable contributions to this it there. debate. I hope that that answers all noble Lords’ questions It is clear from what I said initially and from the on this legislation, and I therefore commend these draft contributions that this SI will maintain our robust regulations to the Committee. product safety framework at the same time as reducing barriers to trade with some of our key trading partners. Motion agreed. It does this by providing for the recognition in Great Britain of overseas conformity assessments for certain The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Healy products under an MRA, while overseas bodies will be of Primrose Hill) (Lab): The Grand Committee stands recognised in Northern Ireland under their country’s adjourned until 4 pm. I remind Members to sanitise MRA with the EU; providing for the Secretary of their desks and chairs before leaving the room. State to designate UK CABs to assess against the requirements of our trading partners for certain products 3.53 pm under an MRA; and amending rules in Great Britain to allow a traditional Japanese spirit to be imported in Sitting suspended. a 900-millilitre bottle size. In supporting this SI, we keep our trade restrictions low so that our manufacturers and consumers benefit from arrangements to minimise Arrangement of Business the duplication of conformity assessments. Announcement My noble friend Lord Lansley noted with regard to - Part 3 of the regulations, on Shochū, that that amendment 4 pm has been delayed beyond 30 March. As he pointed out, we let the relevant Japanese Ministries know that TheDeputyChairmanofCommittees(BaronessPitkeathley) we were unable to implement the obligation by 31 March. (Lab): My Lords, the hybrid Grand Committee will As a fellow parliamentary democracy,Japan understood now resume. Some Members are here in person, others that it was important that the UK Parliament be able are participating remotely, but all Members will be to appropriately debate the Trade Bill before we could treated equally. I ask Members in the Room to respect introduce that provision. On my noble friend’s question social distancing. If the capacity of the Committee about the distinction between Great Britain and Northern Room is exceeded or other safety requirements are Ireland, he is correct that 5 go- bottles of 900 millilitres breached, I will immediately adjourn the Committee. may be placed on the market only in Great Britain. I The time limit for the following debate is one hour. can tell my noble friend that there is express provision in the UK-Japan CEPA that applies in the event of inconsistency between the CEPA and the Northern Common Organisation of the Markets in Ireland protocol. Agricultural Products (Fruit and Vegetable The noble Lord, Lord Lennie, asked whether changes Producer Organisations, Tariff Quotas in accreditation policy would affect Northern Ireland and Wine) (Amendment etc.) trade. The Secretary of State will consider the UK Regulations 2021 body’scompetence against the partner country’slegislative, Considered in Grand Committee regulatory and administrative requirements. In making this judgment, he will of course consider the expert advice of the UK’s national accreditation body. The 4 pm Trade Act provides for product safety and labour Moved by Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist recognition, et cetera, and are they captured, to answer his other question. He noted that there are specifications That the Grand Committee do consider the in the Trade Act, and this SI maintains UK statutory Common Organisation of the Markets in Agricultural protection. Where the specified regulations relate to Products (Fruit and Vegetable Producer Organisations, protection of human health, human life, animal health Tariff Quotas and Wine) (Amendment etc.) or environmental protection, foreign CABs must assess Regulations 2021. against our existing domestic requirements. This is in accordance with our previous approach to MRAs. Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con): My The noble Lord also asked whether the UK could Lords, this instrument applies to retained EU law take a different approach to conformity assessments in relating to the common agricultural policy, including future. In relation to MRAs, this SI is all about the common organisation of the markets, or CMO. providing continuity for businesses. The UK is able to It uses powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) GC 395 CMO Regulations 2021 [LORDS] CMO Regulations 2021 GC 396

[BARONESS BLOOMFIELD OF HINTON WALDRIST] into third countries under tariff rate quotas, such as Act 2018 to correct deficiencies in retained EU law UK cheese imported into the United States. This in and enable functions to be exercised by UK public turn will allow UK exporters to continue to benefit authorities. from preferential market access, although other powers First, the instrument fixes an error relating to the will be needed to ensure that traders in the Crown commencement of Part 4 of the Agriculture (Payments) dependencies can access such quotas. (Amendment, etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. There These amendments replace references to “EU” with is doubt as to whether the amendments made by Part “UK” and remove references to the administration of 4 of that instrument came into force, as intended, at import tariff rate quotas, as these are covered by the end of the transition period due to the error in the regulations made under the Taxation (Cross-border commencement provision of the instrument. To put Trade) Act 2018. No policy changes are made by these this matter beyond doubt and ensure that the retained provisions. EU legislation has been amended as intended, this I turn now to the provisions concerning wine. Wehave instrument revokes and remakes the amendments that included a minor change to entry 1 of the table at Part 4 of the Agriculture (Payments) (Amendment, Annexe 9A of retained Regulation 1308/2013. This change etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020 purported to make. will make it clear that the established wines referred to Thoseamendmentsconcernedfruitandvegetableproducer are those recognised as groups, fruit and vegetable producer organisations and “established protected designation of origin” notifications of agricultural market information to and “established protected geographical indications” domestic authorities. The instrument also revokes and of the type referred to in Article 107(2) of retained remakessomeprovisionsmadebytheCommonOrganisation Regulation 1308/2013. of the Markets in Agricultural Products (Producer Organisations and Wine) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) I hope I have assured your Lordships that this is a Regulations 2020 concerning fruit and vegetable producer simple instrument needed to correct remaining organisations that may not have taken effect due to the inoperabilities in retained EU law to create an operable commencement error in Part 4 of Agriculture (Payments) legislative framework to manage and administer many (Amendment, etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. aspects of agricultural policy. I beg to move. Additionally, this instrument remakes amendments to EU regulations relating to the fruit and vegetable 4.06 pm and processed fruit and vegetable sectors and the fruit Lord Moynihan (Con): My Lords, I am grateful to and vegetable producer organisation aid scheme,including, my noble friend the Minister for that clear explanation—a among other things, activities that can be funded under fascinating defence of correcting an error. It is in the the scheme, the amount of aid that can be claimed and spirit of recognising that she has clearly done a lot of the requirements that the producer organisation must work on this that I simply want to ask a few questions meet to be eligible for funding. No policy changes are and draw her attention to a number of issues relevant made through these amendments; they simply minimise to the statutory instrument. any ambiguity in the rules, which will apply to this legacy I should add that my interests in the wine trade scheme in the UK until it is switched off in England. elements of the statutory instrument stretch back to The instrument also amends retained EU legislation being a member of the Select Committee of your to make specific provision for transnational producer Lordships’ House that looked into the wine trade in organisations implementing an ongoing operational the UK and Europe, as well as to my membership of programme to continue to receive aid in respect of all the Haberdashers’ Company wine committee. It is in their members based in the UK and the EU until the that context that I wish to ask my noble friend the end of their ongoing operational programmes. These Minister a number of questions. I do so in gratitude to amendments are required to prevent the retained EU the WSTA, which has provided some very good briefings legislation being operationally deficient as a result of over recent months, as we have returned to this subject the application of Article 138 of the withdrawal agreement in the space of just two months to correct the error to ongoing operational programmes. that my noble friend has kindly brought to the attention The instrument also remakes amendments to EU of the Committee. Regulation 2017/1185 to ensure that Defra and the The most significant change from leaving the single devolved Administrations can continue to obtain certain market has been the introduction of wine export production and price data from economic operators. certificates for English and Welsh wine exports to the The information is used for market management purposes. EU. While the TCA has introduced a simplified Defra and the devolved Administrations intend to certification regime that can be self-certified by producers maintain the collection and use of this information in without the need for costly laboratory analysis, which the UK. would have been the default outcome had the TCA not I turn now to the provisions that concern the been agreed, the simplified system is still in my view—and administration of tariff rate quotas. The specified EU in the view of many in the industry—paper-based but law relevant to this instrument sets out broad provisions unnecessary. No other category of alcoholic drink is on the administration of export tariff quotas that required to have an additional import certificate when result from international agreements. The instrument entering the EU or the UK. I see no reason to maintain seeks to make operability amendments, which are the requirement for wine coming into the UK. needed to give the Secretary of State the power to The UK and the EU should surely agree on the make detailed provisions in a future instrument for the forms that should now be scrapped completely for administration of export licences for UK goods imported movements of wine between the two but, failing that, GC 397 CMO Regulations 2021 [15 JUNE 2021] CMO Regulations 2021 GC 398 there is provision in the TCA to develop an electronic to that debate in the other place. Before moving to the system, which we have debated in previous Committees actual SI, which I know is striving to remove those on this subject. I would be very grateful if the Minister ambiguities as we proceed on the path following our could confirm that that is being developed as a matter exit from the EU, it is important that economic stability of urgency, hopefully by the end of the year. is created within the farming sector. For the landowners, The second item I want to raise—I am sure that the the tenant farmers who are the producers, for the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, will wider rural network and then for the processers, retailers also raise this when she follows me—is the moving of and consumers, it is important that this legislation goods into Northern Ireland. This is still a significant allows that to happen. issue, as is well known to the Committee and the I hope the Minister can provide assurances to the House. The Northern Ireland protocol requires goods Committee that this will underpin our agricultural sold in Northern Ireland to have a Northern Ireland and agri-food industry. Maybe she can provide an or EU 27 food business operator identified on the update on this issue in tandem with the implementation label, but UK excise rules require an excise duty stamp of the Agriculture Act of last year. Only last week, we as proof of payment of excise duty. This means that had a debate in your Lordships’ House on the Hungry English producers must either produce specific labels for Change report, where we discussed the need for the for Northern Ireland or “oversticker”, which is costly Government to be working with charitable organisations and bureaucratic. Of course, there is a solution: get rid and other bodies in both the central and local government of excise stamps for spirits, since no other category of sectors to ensure greater accessibility to environmentally alcoholic drink requires proof of payment of excise sustainable food for all at a reasonable cost. I am in no duty. doubt that we all need to work together to develop a Attached to the statutory instrument were a number food system that becomes resilient to shocks in our system of documents which the Government have published, and to safeguard all our communities and people. Will technical notices which helped people prepare for the the Minister indicate that this SI will enable us along end of the transition period. In the spirit of removing the road to do just that? Will she provide assurances to ambiguities, I close by gently pointing out that, on the that effect? food and drink labelling changes, there is a guidance Moving on to the SI, I note that the regulations note on completing the wine exports self-certificate, contained therein will fix an error relating to the which everyone now has to complete. It says with regard commencement of Part 4 of the Agriculture (Payments) to box 7: (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. Will “Only complete this section if the place of unloading is the Minister elaborate on the nature of the error, why different from the consignee’s address you entered in Box 2.” it has to be corrected and how this correction will However, box 2 is for the serial number. Perhaps contribute to the marked importance of agricultural officials could have a little look at that to make sure products to the rural and wider economy? that the next edition of that form, which is now The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, referred to the required, is corrected. But in the spirit of thanking my Northern Ireland protocol, the attendant issues that noble friend for bringing this statutory instrument to have arisen out of Brexit and the difficulties for products the attention of the Committee and removing ambiguities being imported into Northern Ireland from GB because that had otherwise existed, I confirm that I support Northern Ireland will still have to adhere to EU rules. the statutory instrument and I think that both he and Therefore, with the operation of the Northern Ireland his officials have done some excellent work in clearing protocol, where agri-food products are governed by up the uncertainty—not necessarily an error, but an this instrument, what is the relationship between it uncertainty—that has led to this statutory instrument. and the protocol? I presume that Northern Ireland will continue to be governed under the original EU rules. Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]: I Wedo not want any trading barriers between Northern thank the Minister for his explanation of these regulations. Ireland and GB and vice versa. Therefore, could the It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, Minister indicate whether, in negotiations with the on this issue. I note that this instrument, which is EU,the Government will pursue a Swiss-style arrangement subject to the affirmative procedure, would amend with it, which would eradicate a large proportion of several retained EU regulations relating to the common the problems for SPS? agricultural policy and the common organisation of Furthermore, will this instrument ensure that Defra agricultural markets for the fruit and vegetable producer and the devolved Administrations continue to obtain organisations aid scheme. Basically, in my humble certain production and price data from economic opinion, they seem to deal with marketing operating operators, and how will this manifest itself? What will measures. I further note that, according to some research, be the intersection between this statutory instrument this SI and previous related regulations are essential to and the common frameworks for agricultural support; prevent significant disruption at the end of the transition food labelling and compositional standards; plant health period. and varieties; and seeds? I indicate my interest as a The Minister stated that the regulations would not memberof theCommonFrameworksScrutinyCommittee. introduce new policy but would preserve the regime Can the Minister provide an update in relation to this for supporting rural development, as well as updating matter as well? other aspects of retained EU law to reflect amendments It is worth noting that many of these SIs, which made by the EU in 2019 and 2020. In fact, the Minister deal with EU exit matters, coincide with many of the in the other place, Victoria Prentis, made referrence to issues of divergence that are covered by common that fact and stated it directly as part of her contribution frameworks. It is further interesting to note that a GC 399 CMO Regulations 2021 [LORDS] CMO Regulations 2021 GC 400

[BARONESS RITCHIE OF DOWNPATRICK] the EU? If the Government felt unable to do that, could large proportion of these frameworks relate to Defra we not sign up to the less onerous provisions agreed and are at very early stages. Perhaps the Minister will under what I call the New Zealand version, as a deal be kind enough to indicate when we will receive the has been done between New Zealand and the EU with final frameworks for scrutiny. Why are they being held what I understand are less onerous provisions than the up? Perhaps she could write to me on those particular SPS provisions of the rest of the EU? A lot of producers issues—I look forward to that. would like to know why, if they are good enough for New Zealand and the EU, they are not good enough 4.17 pm for British exports to Northern Ireland and the EU. Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): I am grateful I will briefly come on to wine—and who would not and delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. want to? It is interesting to note that the original I commend my noble friend for so eloquently introducing reason many people were persuaded to join the European the regulations before us today and correcting, in her Union was to get cheaper wine. Now we are told that inimitable way, the earlier error, which we appreciate we should embrace the UK-Australia free trade agreement greatly.I always hesitate when any noble friend responding because we will get cheaper wine. I hope we will get to these debates claims that these are technical not more exports of Scotch whisky to Australia by the policy changes: there is one policy change that I hope same token. With reference to the requirement for that my noble friend will look favourably on when these different SKUs for the different markets—which for regulations possibly come before us again. wine means different labels, provisions and costs—which I have a number of questions for my noble friend. I am sure my noble friend will recall we discussed Paragraph 10.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum states: when this matter was last debated some weeks ago, a very simple provision could be introduced which would “Defra has engaged with the Devolved Administrations on its approach to CAP legislation under the European Union (Withdrawal) require a UK address on the label, as is currently Act 2018”. allowed for food and drink, making one UK label My first question is: what has the nature and exact acceptable for both the UK and the EU market. form of that consultation and engagement been? I do I respectfully ask my noble friend why we cannot do not just refer to the devolved Administrations: what this for wine. I know that my honourable friend the representations have been heard by, or consultation Minister in the other place, Victoria Prentis, has met had with, the relevant agricultural representatives covered the wine industry and warm words were exchanged. by the regulations? While warm words are welcome, we need hard action. My noble friend said that the existing regulations I hope my noble friend will look favourably on the will eventually be switched off. What will the timeframe suggestion which, I repeat, has been made on a number for the regulations be? Is it bound by the new reforms of occasions by the wine sector and would save it an that we are currently looking at in the form of ELMS awful lot of bother and cost. We could simply make and replacing the CAP provisions? It would be interesting that provision in the new label. to have that confirmed. Like my noble friend Lord Moynihan and indeed 4.23 pm as my noble friend the Minister encouraged us to do Lord Bhatia (Non-Afl) [V]: My Lords, this instrument, yesterday, when she so wittingly and carefully looked which is subject to the affirmative procedure, would at this—I have taken a leaf out of her book and am amend several retained EU regulations relating to the grateful to her for making this suggestion—I have common agricultural policy and the common organisation taken the opportunity to look at some of the technical of agricultural markets, which is a fruit and vegetable notes. I particularly looked at those on the UK transition producer organisation aid scheme. It fixes an error —I am not sure whether I am entirely the wiser as a relating to the commencement of Part 4 of the agriculture result—and the food and drink labelling changes. payments EU regulations 2020. My first question relates to the provision for honey. This instrument remakes some amendments made The guidance states that GB honey is no longer to be by the common organisation of the markets in agricultural called EU honey but a “blend of EU honeys”, a “blend products regulations relating to fruit and vegetable of non-EU honeys” or a producer organisations that did not take effect due to “blend of EU and non-EU honeys”. the commencement error outlined previously. It makes Can my noble friend make a guesstimate of the cost of amendments relating to transnational producer this? I note that paragraph 12.3 of the Explanatory organisations taking part in the fruit and vegetable Memorandum says that no impact assessment has producer organisation aid scheme. It amends legislation been prepared and that the department is relating to trade provisions to allow for the administration “confident that the changes … fall below the £5m per annum of tariff quotas for agricultural products. threshold for net direct costs to business”. There was an error in the previous instrument. The However, if it applies to honey—I will come to the error included in the regulations led to doubt as to wine industry in a minute—it could be a sizeable cost. whether the provisions included in Part 4 took effect It would be interesting to know why no impact assessment on the implementation period’s completion date. If has been done. Part 4 did not commence on the implementation period’s Assuming that there is a cost to having these labelling completion date as intended, it could have a knock-on provisions, because one label will be prepared for the effect for some provisions included in the regulations. EU/Northern Ireland market and another prepared This instrument puts this matter beyond doubt and for the British market, could these costs not be ensures that there is legal certainty that the retained extinguished if we signed up to the SPS provisions of EU legislation has been amended as intended. GC 401 CMO Regulations 2021 [15 JUNE 2021] CMO Regulations 2021 GC 402

Finally, the Agriculture Minister has stated that the process for approving new designations and retaining regulations were essential to prevent significant disruption the reputation of UK wines, which was envisaged at at the end of the transition period. The Minister also that time? In the previous debate, the noble Lord, stated that the regulations would not introduce new Lord Gardiner, said: policy but would preserve the regime and support “Our aim is to ensure that imports of third-country wines development. Can the Minister explain who made this continues unaffected while continuing to increase domestic wine error and what it has cost? production.”—[Official Report, 18/11/20; cols. GC 710-11.] Do UK wines now have the flourishing market in the TheDeputyChairmanofCommittees(BaronessPitkeathley) EU and third countries unhindered by tariffs and red (Lab): The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, tape that was envisaged at the time by the Minister? has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Jones Have the Government now reached an agreement with of Whitchurch. the Wine and Spirit Trade Association, which at that time was very unhappy with the certification process 4.26 pm for shipments of EU wines into the UK, which it felt Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab): My Lords, I to be overburdensome? That point was raised by the thank the Minister for her helpful introduction to noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and the noble Baroness, these regulations. They are, as she says, broadly technical Lady McIntosh. I look forward to the Minister’sresponse. in nature, correcting, in that now familiar phrase, “errors and deficiencies”in previous SIs. While I cannot TheDeputyChairmanofCommittees(BaronessPitkeathley) claim to have reread all the previous SIs that are (Lab): The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, has scratched, corrected here,I looked back at the Common Organisation soIcalltheMinister,thenobleBaroness,LadyBloomfield. of the Markets in Agricultural Products (Producer Organisations and Wine) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) 4.30 pm Regulations 2020 (S.I. 2020/1446), as the EM suggested in paragraph 7.5 that they should be read in conjunction Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con): My with each other. Then I discovered that the earlier SI Lords, I thank all noble Lords for contributing to this was correcting errors and deficiencies in a previous SI. short debate. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Now we seem to be correcting errors and deficiencies Jones, that this situation is far from ideal. However, to in previous errors and deficiencies. It makes one wonder put it in context, since July 2018, Defra has laid how the organisations affected by these changes ever 340 SIs subject to parliamentary procedure, 216 of keep abreast of the layers of these amendments. I am them relating to EU exit. Current estimates are that we sure that the Minister will agree that this is far from an have at least as big a programme in mind for the ideal situation. current year. The 340 instruments Defra has laid since Given where we are, I have a few questions to follow July 2018 represent nearly one-quarter of the UK’s up. Some of them have been raised by other noble entire EU exit and transition period SI programme. I Lords in the debate. First, the Explanatory Note states: am afraid that some errors were always going to happen “There is doubt as to whether the amendments made by Part 4 given that volume of work. of those Regulations came into force, as intended, on IP completion I was asked specifically by the noble Baroness, day”. Lady Ritchie, and the noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, what Further on, it states that part of the earlier SI the error was.It was a drafting error in the commencement “may not have existed due to the error in the commencement provisions of the Agriculture (Payments) (Amendment, provision”. etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. There is some uncertainty Again the Minister explained this in her introduction. as to whether Part 4 of that SI, the amendments that What has been the impact of these errors? Have businesses relate to retained EU legislation, came into force as or producer organisations been adversely affected by intended on IP completion date as that part of the SI the fact that these regulations have not been watertight was stated to come into force immediately before and might not have been introduced in a timely way? IP completion date. That resulted in Part 4 of the SI Is there any recourse to compensation when errors are purporting to amend retained EU legislation that did found to occur in this way? For example, has there not exist immediately before IP completion date. I hope been an occasion when the fruit and vegetable aid that that answers the question. scheme might have been invoked because of market My noble friend Lord Moynihan asked a number failure but payments were unable to be made? of questions to do with wine, as did my noble friend Secondly, this SI seems to require the head office of Lady McIntosh and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. a producer organisation to be sited in the nation where The Government have met the Wine and Spirit Trade the majority of its marketed production takes place. Association. Defra Ministers had useful discussions Does this change the provision for transnational producer with Miles Beale and his team at WSTA. The WSTA organisations that we have previously discussed? Will was keen to press its concerns about VI-1s and raised a they still be able to access funds in the UK even if their few other issues, including labelling and electronic head office is elsewhere? certification, which officials are actively looking into. Thirdly, I shall pick up an issue raised by other On my noble friend Lord Moynihan’s questions, noble Lords about the market for established wine the UK wine sector prepared well for Brexit, with the designations and GIs for UK wine, particularly the result that trade has continued largely unaffected by implications of the trade and co-operation agreement the new arrangements. However, like some other food which was signed in December after we had agreed the sectors, wine has encountered ad hoc problems with previous SI. Do we now have an established UK exports to certain EU member states in terms of GC 403 CMO Regulations 2021 [LORDS] CMO Regulations 2021 GC 404

[BARONESS BLOOMFIELD OF HINTON WALDRIST] programmes and receive all payments due. The retained customs arrangements and wine certification. We have legislation, as amended by this SI, will apply to any worked with the companies involved, their agents, the new operational programmes implemented by UK Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office and POs. This is likely to be from 1 January 2022 onwards. the member states concerned to resolve immediate We hope to begin negotiations shortly with the EU to issues and to establish what can be done to ensure that agree to switch to retained legislation before the end of the matter does not reoccur on future shipments. the current programmes, but this SI will be in force Leaving the EU gives the UK Government scope to before that happens. This means there will be no gap review and change policies so that they may better suit between legislation, and therefore no impact on producer the needs of our people and businesses, so there may organisations. be the opportunity to review the need for VI-1 certification The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, also asked whether for imports. We keep all these areas of retained EU there were occasions when fruit and vegetable producer wine law under review to ensure that they meet the organisation legislation could have been invoked if the needs of consumers and the trade and are generally fit relevant amendments had been in force. The answer is for purpose. It is possible to transmit wine certification that they could not: EU legislation continues to apply via electronic means. We will consider all aspects of to existing operational programmes. She also asked the process and transmission as a matter of urgency. about requirements about where head offices are sited, My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked about whether they change the position for transnational stakeholder engagement. The SI was drafted in active producer organisations and whether they can still access consultation with policy officials from all devolved funding. As we are continuing to follow EU legislation Administrations, who were given the opportunity to for the duration of current operational programmes, comment at each drafting stage. Affected fruit and transnational producer organisations can continue to vegetable producer organisation stakeholders are aware receive funding in respect of all actions carried out by of and engage with Defra’s plans for the sector. Defra their members, no matter where in the UK or the EU has proactively engaged with transnational producer they are based. If we switch to retained EU legislation organisations affected by the UK leaving the EU and following agreement with the EU, this SI will mean the operability amendments that that requires. that UK transnational producer organisations will I think that I have already answered the question continue to receive aid in respect of all their EU-based about wine importer labelling, but I should add that members for the remainder of their current programmes. the Government have introduced an easement that The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, also asked whether allows an EU importer or bottler to be displayed on the market for wine has recovered following the transition wine marketed in the UK until 30 September 2022. period. The UK market saw a slowdown at the beginning Similar arrangements are made for food products and of the year, as many companies had moved supplies of are designed to support the industry’s transition to wine as a contingency for a no-deal Brexit. Similarly, new rules. In the intervening time, we continue to work the hospitality sector has been hit at a global level due with industry to review the current wine labelling to Covid, which has also impacted on transport costs. arrangements and replace them with something more We are seeing the sector recover now, and the opening practical if that is possible. up of the hospitality sector will help. In answer to the The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, asked a number question about whether the UK has a fully functioning of questions about Northern Ireland trade, some of GI scheme, the UK has a fully functioning GI scheme which I will answer in writing if I am unable to do so covering food and drink, wines, spirits and aromatised here. In terms of trade disruption, the UK has always wines. We also have a new logo for products protected been clear that implementing the protocol had to under the UK scheme to use, which I recall was dealt respect Northern Ireland’s place in the UK customs with in an earlier SI when we met one another. On territory.Wehave protected and respected that important third-country wine imports and exports, we have taken principle. Through the UK trader support scheme we steps to ensure that wine products can be imported are ensuring maximum continued ability for Northern and exported freely. We have recently extended the Ireland businesses to export both to the EU and to GB easement whereby any wines arriving from the EU will and therefore keep disruption over the next few years not need to have associated wine certification to 1 January to a minimum. In the long term, the prosperity of 2022. This will provide time for the sector to adjust to Northern Ireland will depend on the whole set of the new trading arrangements, including those set out economic measures that the Government implement, under the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement. of which agriculture and agri-food is only one part. I Lastly, I reiterate that we are in continual discussions should add that agriculture is, of course, currently with the Wine and Spirit Trade Association. I think I devolved, but we are very keen to work with all the have now answered most of the questions, barring DAsbecauseweallwantthesamething:anenvironmentally those from the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, which I sensitive, sustainable food system. will answer in writing. I apologise to my noble friend Lady McIntosh that I am unable to answer her specific Turning to the questions asked by the noble Baroness, questions on honey, which I recall was also covered by Lady Jones, on the impact on the food and vegetable a previous SI: I fear that the honey team is not in its producer organisations aid scheme, there is actually hive today. I will look at Hansard in case there are no impact on this scheme. The UK continues to follow other points I have missed. In the meantime, these EU legislation as it applies to EU member states for regulations are worthy of your Lordships’ support, and the duration of the current operational programmes I commend this statutory instrument to your Lordships. implemented by producer organisations. They have continued to implement their approved operational Motion agreed. GC 405 CMO Regulations 2021[15 JUNE 2021] Public Procurement Regulations 2021 GC 406

TheDeputyChairmanofCommittees(BaronessPitkeathley) Without this instrument, the United Kingdom would (Lab):MyLords,theGrandCommitteestandsadjourned not be able to implement its international procurement until 5 pm. I remind Members to sanitise their desks obligations in trade agreements with third countries. and chairs before leaving the Room. This would leave the UK Government open to legal challenge and damage our reputation as an international 4.40 pm trading partner. This instrument will be made using powers set out Sitting suspended. in Section 2 of the Trade Act. The instrument will create a new schedule within existing procurement Arrangement of Business regulations, listing the international agreements signed Announcement by the United Kingdom. It will be limited to UK trade agreements with countries that had a preceding agreement 5 pm with the EU before exit day. Of those agreements in effect, those with substantive procurement provisions TheDeputyChairmanofCommittees(BaronessPitkeathley) to be listed in the schedule are Albania, the Andean (Lab): My Lords, the hybrid Grand Committee will countries, Canada, the CARIFORUM states, central now resume. Some Members are here in person, others America, Chile, Georgia, Israel, Japan, Kosovo, Mexico, are participating remotely, but all Members will be Moldova, North Macedonia, the Republic of Korea, treated equally. I ask Members in the Room to respect Serbia, Singapore, the Swiss Confederation, Ukraine social distancing. If the capacity of the Committee and Vietnam. Room is exceeded or other safety requirements are The instrument is, I believe, uncontroversial, each breached, I will immediately adjourn the Committee. of those agreements having already been scrutinised The time limit for the following debate is one hour. via the procedure set out in the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010. Furthermore, parliamentary Public Procurement (International Trade reportshavebeenvoluntarilylaidalongsideeachcontinuity trade agreement. They explain our approach to delivering Agreements) (Amendment) continuity with each partner as the United Kingdom Regulations 2021 left the EU. If we have made any significant changes Considered in Grand Committee to the trade-related provisions of our existing agreements through entering into the new ones, we have explained 5 pm them in those reports. Moved by Lord True Moving forward, further affirmative statutory instruments will need to be laid, using the powers in That the Grand Committee do consider the Public Section 2 of the Trade Act, each time the UK signs a Procurement (International Trade Agreements) new trade agreement with a third country or any of (Amendment) Regulations 2021. the agreements mentioned here are updated, to give them legal effect. Future trade agreements with countries The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) where there was no free trade agreement with the EU (Con): My Lords, this instrument will ensure domestic before exit day—which could include Australia and public procurement regulations give legal effect to the New Zealand—are not covered in the Trade Act and UK’s international procurement obligations, specifically will require separate legislation. those covered in the UK third party international trade I commend the regulations to the Committee and agreements signed with non-EU countries that had an beg to move. agreement with the EU before exit day on 31 January 2020. Therefore, when contracting authorities carry out public procurements, this could be covered by an 5.04 pm international agreement. If so, suppliers from those Lord Haskel (Lab) [V]: My Lords, this is a difficult countries are required to be treated no less favourably time. We are faced with difficult political, social and than suppliers in the United Kingdom. It also means economic problems, including the pandemic, Brexit, that UK businesses will continue to benefit from access climate change and a sense that the economy is failing to public procurement markets overseas. many people. We keep hearing from the Government Wehave agreement with the devolved Administrations about their ambition to build a better future by building that this instrument will be laid on behalf of Wales, in more resilience so as not to return to the same world Scotland and Northern Ireland. This will ensure legislative as we knew it. They can do this through legislation. I efficiency and consistency across the four nations. would have thought that this is so pressing that no We are implementing this change because the UK legislative opportunity would be lost. After all, it is actions Government, following our exit from the EU, have, as that count, not words. In this regard, the Government far as possible, committed to providing continuity in have a big chasm to cross. existing trade and investment relationships with It seems to me that, with these regulations, the our existing international partners. We have already Government have an opportunity to act. Admittedly, helped to ensure a continuation of global procurement the regulations deal only with public procurement, but through the World Trade Organization’s Agreement it is a start. They deal with our place in the world of onGovernmentProcurement,followingtheUK’saccession public procurement after Brexit and confirm that we to the agreement as an independent member, and we will stick to the same rules as we did when we were have laid separate legislation to implement that. members of the European Union regarding transparency, GC 407 Public Procurement Regulations 2021[LORDS] Public Procurement Regulations 2021 GC 408

[LORD HASKEL] have taken the opportunity to make specific exemptions non-discrimination and the equal treatment of all for clinical healthcare services, which indeed they did suppliers and contractors in countries that, like us, are in the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement. So members of the Agreement on Government Procurement. those who talk about the exposure of the NHS to When we were members of the European Union, competition should look at that and recognise that the we did well in winning contracts for public procurement Government have, if anything, moved in the opposite but, as with the rest of our European business, we are direction. being disadvantaged by increased bureaucracy. Could The pedantic point I want to make is that, in we not use these regulations to help us win public introducing the instrument, my noble friend reflected procurement contracts in Europe with the same minimal what is said at paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory bureaucracy as we had when we were members? After Memorandum, which may have been the intention when all, we are agreeing to the same rules as we had before it was written: we left. This would be one small step towards “This instrument will only affect trade agreements that have cutting bureaucracy when dealing with our European already been scrutinised via the procedure set out in the Constitutional neighbours. Reform and Governance Act”— Could we not do better? Could we not introduce an that is, CRaG. This is almost entirely true, but it is not element of sustainability in these public procurement true in relation to the agreement with Serbia. The deals? This element is being introduced more and Serbia agreement was signed on 16 April using powers more. It is becoming a feature of financial markets under Section 2 of the Trade Act, which was given with ESG investment and the Bank of England is Royal Assent on 29 April. This statutory instrument monitoring the record of our banks and major companies was created and laid on 13 May. The Serbia agreement on sustainability by having them report on responsible was laid under CRaG on 11 May and, I understand, investment. This is all part of the developing relationship was provisionally applied on 20 May; the Secondary between business and government to achieve social Legislation Scrutiny Committee and the Joint Committee objectives by arguing for resilience over efficiency. on Statutory Instruments looked at it on 25 and Indeed, this was mentioned at the CBI climate conference 26 May. It might have been anticipated that the CRaG yesterday. scrutiny period would have ended by now but it has In a way, we have set a precedent for this with not because the Whit Recess intervened and the CRaG British Standard 95009, which was introduced in 2019. scrutiny period expires on 23 June. The International This standard, which is becoming more and more Agreements Committee, of which I am a member, will widelyused,specifieshowanorganisationcandemonstrate examine the UK agreement with Serbia tomorrow. So that it is a suitable provider for the public sector. there is an exception to this point. Could we not extend this standard to the UK’s legal Does it matter? I think the short answer is that it obligations under the Agreement on Government does not. The provisional application is in place, as Procurement so as to include sustainability and other one would expect in order to minimise any discontinuity social and economic objectives? in our trading relationship with Serbia because we I understand from what the Minister said that have been operating on quasi-WTO rules since the turn further regulations are being drafted to give effect to of the year and the provisional application was quite our procurement obligations under WTO rules. If it is right. So it does not matter but there is a point here: if too late to include these points in these regulations, instruments are laid with Explanatory Notes, the timing can they be considered for those in preparation? The and sequencing need to be very clear. In this case there Government have come in for a lot of criticism recently, is, I think, no controversy, but if there were controversy, being accused of bias in the awarding of public contracts. and if we were in a position where the House was Enlarging these regulations in this way could be a way being asked to put in place implementing legislation in of deflecting that criticism. circumstances where the CRaG scrutiny had not concluded, that would be regrettable. I just want to 5.09 pm note this because we are all finding our way with all Lord Lansley (Con): My Lords, I am glad to follow these processes but I hope that care will be taken to the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, although, unlike his understand the sequencing for future occasions. interesting and wide-ranging remarks, I am afraid that that I am going to be very specific and quite pedantic. This is not in any particular spirit of criticism of these 5.14 pm regulations; in introducing them, my noble friend was Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): My Lords, I clear about their purposes. They are indeed entirely am grateful to my noble friend for the opportunity to noncontroversial and, to a large extent, much anticipated debate these regulations, which I presume are the first and much welcomed to implement the continuity that we are looking at under the Trade Act 2021. I agreement so far as government procurement and welcome that agreements have been reached with such access to public procurement in the United Kingdom a wide range of countries—I particularly note Vietnam, is concerned. Japan and Singapore. Could my noble friend again I want to make two points. The first is for those confirm the limit to the public procurement under the who are often prone to saying that it is our Government’s global procurement strategy to which he referred—it intention to expose the National Health Service to was the equivalent of ¤100,000 or $100,000? Like my competition pressures. Whether or not they think that noble friend Lord Lansley, I welcome the fact that we is detrimental, I will not argue; the point is that, here, have not gone down the path of opening up competition as in other public procurement measures, the Government to the National Health Service. GC 409 Public Procurement Regulations 2021[15 JUNE 2021] Public Procurement Regulations 2021 GC 410

As my noble friend Lord True will recall, when we If it were to be extended, would we have the opportunity debated these issues earlier, my one regret was I had to look at these regulations again, or is this a one-off? hoped that, now that we have left the European Union, I also note that paragraph 10.1 states: our farmers and producers in particular would benefit “There has been no consultation on this instrument.” from selling their produce—meat, fruit or vegetables—and From what my noble friend Lord True said at the being a source of more domestically grown produce outset in so ably moving these regulations, I understood for our public institutions, such as hospitals, schools that the Government have the authority to work on and others. That being the case, and given the fact that behalf of the devolved Administrations of Wales, the cost of exporting to many of these countries, and Scotland and Northern Ireland. What was the forum the carbon footprint, would be quite large, does my giving that consent? noble friend envisage that there may be opportunities With those few remarks, I am delighted to support for our agricultural producers and horticulturalists to these regulations. export to some of the countries covered by this agreement? Paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum says that the instrument specifically does not apply to 5.21 pm future trade agreements, as my noble friend set out so Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab) [V]: I thank eloquently—he specifically mentioned Australia and the Minister for his introduction, but I am afraid the New Zealand—and that separate legislation will be main question I would like to put to him—to which I required. I understand that we are only entering into fear I cannot expect a reply—is whether all those arch- the finer details of our negotiations with Australia, Brexiteers really did all that campaigning just to spend but when does my noble friend expect that legislation time on a sunny summer afternoon on SIs which to come before the House in that regard? simply put in place exactly the same rules that we had I will follow up the point that my noble friend Lord before exit day? I do not expect him to answer that. Lansley raised about the CRaG procedure. Obviously, However, that is what this looks like, as a result of there is an issue that the Select Committee should have rolling over EU agreements, some large, some small, the earliest possible opportunity to consider the detail as the Minister mentioned, with Chile, Switzerland, of future trade agreements. I add to that my concern: Israel, the CARIFORUM states, Colombia, Ecuador, my understanding is that the Trade and Agriculture Peru, central America, Singapore, Korea, Georgia, Commission has not yet been appointed as a new body Kosovo, Ukraine, Japan, North Macedonia, Canada, —it has no chairman or members—yet we are proceeding Mexico, Vietnam, Albania and Serbia—I look forward apace with existing rollover continuity agreements and to the Minister’s response to the noble Lord, Lord proceeding to negotiate new ones. Does my noble friend Lansley, on that one, given that it does not appear to have an idea of, and timetable for the appointment of have gone through CRaG. These regulations simply its new chairman and members? seem to retain our public procurement rules, in line with those the EU already has with these countries I reiterate the point made by the Trade and Agriculture and which therefore applied to us before we left. We Commission’s outgoing chairman, Tim Smith, in the are going through all this just to maintain what was report that it submitted: he specifically states that the there beforehand. timing is absolutely key and that, in exactly the same way as the Select Committees on international agreements As the Minister said, the Trade Act 2021, which of both Houses, the Trade and Agriculture Commission authorises these regulations, covers deals with countries should have the earliest possible opportunity to look which have trade agreements with the EU—in other at these agreements. Will my noble friend confirm that words, the ones they are rolling over—so we just continue the new Trade and Agriculture Commission will not as before. As he rightly says, we have to agree this to be presented with a fait accompli in the case of a trade honour the existing deals we have chosen to continue agreement with Australia, New Zealand or the United to operate, and to ensure that any UK relevant public States, but rather that it will be able to do the work authority treats the suppliers of services or economic that we are asking it to do and will—if it will not be operators in the countries listed no less favourably consulted on the negotiating mandate, which I would than home competitors. prefer—have the earliest possible notice or sight of it? We are where we are, and we are just continuing it. But the interesting question—to which I would prefer My noble friend will be all too familiar with the fact an answer over my tease at the start—is that posed by that, in part 1 of the National Food Strategy report, my noble friend Lord Haskel: if, as we keep hearing, the government adviser Henry Dimbleby and all those the whole point of Brexit was to give us the freedom to who served in producing it made these points very sign our own deals, why not add into these a requirement eloquently and forcefully.I understand that, regrettably, that all public procurement from domestic or overseas the Government have responded privately to part 1, suppliers includes sustainability clauses, fairness to and it would be helpful if we could all see the contents SMEs, worker protection and consumer rights? of that reply. With those few remarks, I welcome the I do not want the Minister to have given up his nice opportunity to have debated these agreements, and I sunny afternoon in vain, so some thoughts on how the look forward to reviewing further ones. Brexit freedom can be translated into our public I have one final question. Paragraph 6.2 of the procurement would be enlightening. Even as I absolutely Explanatory Memorandum states: signify our acceptance of these uncontroversial regulations, “The section 2 power is in place for five years from IP as he called them, it would be interesting to know completion day, and can be extended for a further five-year whether the Government will be a little more ambitious period by Parliament, subject to the agreement of both Houses.” than it appears from this. GC 411 Public Procurement Regulations 2021[LORDS] Public Procurement Regulations 2021 GC 412

5.25 pm ever forced us to open up the NHS to private providers. We have always protected our right to choose how Lord True (Con): I thank all noble Lords and noble we deliver public services in trade agreements and we Baronesses who have spoken for their general welcome will continue to do so. I came armed to give longer for this measure. Some of it was slightly tempered, but reassurances on that point and could expand further, in the docile environment of a statutory instrument but I think my noble friend picked that out accurately Grand Committee upstairs, I shall not let my temper from the documents before us. be provoked by it. I simply say that, having been called an arch Brexiteer, I would rather describe myself as an I agree with my noble friend Lady McIntosh that arch musketeer now on behalf of the British interest. there are opportunities for agricultural producers, our That operates come rain or shine. Part of the context own producers, as free trade is extended. I do not which has not been referred to—it was referred to by think we should always see issues as incoming; there my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering but not are opportunities outgoing as well. I believe that that by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter—is that the sun will be widely seen and acknowledged in the years was certainly shining in Downing Street earlier today, ahead. My noble friend asked when specific legislation when my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will come forward in relation to the Australia provision and Mr Scott Morrison announced exactly the kind of announced today by the Prime Minister and the Secretary way forward to a better future which both the noble of State, Liz Truss, who I believe deserves enormous Lord, Lord Haskel, and the noble Baroness were asking credit for the extraordinary effort she is making on for. This Government are ambitious on behalf of the behalf of the country. I cannot advise specifically on national interest and of all those who work and produce timescales for that, but I can assure my noble friend in our country. We remain unashamedly of the opinion that there will be full scope for the kind of parliamentary that free trade is an enormous boon to mankind. Over scrutiny she is seeking. the decades and centuries, it has contributed to the My noble friend also asked about the timing of raising of the condition of the people in nations across appointments. I cannot at this point advise her on that, the world. That is as far as I will go on the political but I will try to give her some better guidance outside element of the discussion. this discussion. On the specific points on which I was asked, my I am grateful for what has been said. It is a warm noble friend Lord Lansley raised an important issue in afternoon but the musketeering never stops, and I pay relation to Serbia. These are not minor points; full credit to noble Lords who have taken the trouble parliamentary scrutiny is obviously of fundamental to take part in this debate to secure the future of importance—I think that we all agree on that. I do not British trade and, yes, steps towards the kind of better think that there has been any attempt to do anything future that the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, challenged untoward, but I shall undertake to write to my noble us to work for in his opening remarks. I must tell him friend on the detailed point that he has raised, if he that I have slightly more confidence than he has about will accept that as a response. the prospects for the future, and we will work to disabuse On the specific point raised by the noble Lord, him of any doubts he has. I was very grateful for his Lord Haskel, about the WTO—which I referred to— input into the debate and that of all noble Lords. perhaps my remarks were slightly infelicitously set, The Government have committed to providing because I gave the impression that there was a forward- continuity as far as possible in existing trade—we looking element here. As for the WTO, a separate make no apology for that—and in investment relationships statutory instrument, the Public Procurement (Agreement with non-EU countries now we have left the EU. I on Government Procurement) (Amendment) Regulations repeat that, for this reason, we think that, as others 2021, was made and laid under the negative procedure have said, the instrument is uncontroversial, allowing on 12 May 2021 using powers in Section 1 of the Trade for the continuation of current procurement practice. Act. That has given effect to the UK’s independent That has been the sense of your Lordships’ committee. membership of the Agreement on Government I hope I have answered noble Lords’ questions. I have Procurement, which is a WTO function and institution. undertaken to respond to a couple which are very My noble friend Lord Lansley, with his immense detailed. I hope I have clarified the implications of the experience in this area, reminded us that the Government amended legislation and I trust that noble Lords will, are not involving the National Health Service. These as they said, support the statutory instrument. I am continuity agreements will ensure that the transition grateful to them for that. of existing FTAs will not impact on how the UK currently delivers healthcare services or standards of Motion agreed. care in the NHS. No trade agreement has ever affected our ability to keep public services public, nor has one Committee adjourned at 5.33 pm.