Third Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislat ure

of the

Legislative Assembly of

DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

Official Report (Hansard)

Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker

Vol. LII No. 6 - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, November 20, 2001 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature

Member Constituency Political Affiliation

AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. ASPER, Linda Riel N.D.P. BARRETI, Becky, Hon. Inkster N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. Wolseley N.D.P. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PENNER, Jim Steinbach P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Joy Fort Garry P.C. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P. 179

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, November 20,2001

The House met at 1:30 p.m. Jack, Zofia de Witt, Beatrice Watson, Dr. Madhukar Gupta, Christina Semaniuk, PRAYERS Valerie Hoshizaki-Nordin, Rose Tilbrook, Michael Barry Lazar, Randolf Gorvie, Graham ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Buckingham, Jackie Dolynchuk, Dr. K.C. Asagwara, Dr. Romulo F. Magsino, Youssef MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Bezzahou, Harjeet Kahlon, Kana Mahadavan and John Cardoso. These Manitobans will Ethnocultural Advisory and represent our ethnocultural community, pro­ Advocacy Council viding information, advice and recommendations to me on all ethnocultural matters, including Hon. (Minister of Labour and anti-racism, education, human rights, immigra­ Immigration): Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial tion, settlement, heritage and cultural and statement for the House. linguistic diversity. It is an accepted fact and a source of pride The Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and that one of Manitoba's greatest assets is the Advocacy Council reflects the belief of multicultural diversity of our citizens. We are a Manitobans and this Government in the value of community of many heritages and many origins, preserving, promoting and strengthening our working together to build a better future fo r our multicultural diversity. Together the council, children. This has been the story of our Manitobans, and this Government will ensure province's history, and it is the fo undation on the ethnocultural richness of our province which our hopes for tomorrow rest. continues to be a source of pride and strength on our journeythrough the 21st century. Thank you. To continue realizing the benefits of Manitoba's ethnic diversity, we have recognized the necessity of creating a process to strengthen Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, I the working relationship between Government thank the member for bringing fo rth this and Manitoba's ethnocultural communities. The minister's statement today in regard to the Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council Act, which was passed through the Council that I think has been asked for fo r quite Legislature earlier this year, provided the basis a long time by the various multicultural for the establishment of a 21-seat volunteer communities here in Manitoba. multicultural council to provide advice and advocacy to government on issues of importance * (13:35) to the ethnocultural community. It is true, as the member said, that we do I am pleased to announce that with the enjoy one of the greatest assets of our province assistance of more than 200 ethnocultural and that is the diversity of our multicultural organizations we have completed the elections communities. The resources, the abilities, the and selections of Manitobans to serve on the strengths, the sense of community of contri­ new council. The council members represent an bution to Manitoba's mosaic is something, I impressive cross-section of Manitoba's cultural think, that we should all be very, very proud of. diversity and bring a wealth of professional An advocacy group that is mentioned here, experiences and volunteer insights as they accept fo rmation by the minister is something that can this important challenge. have a very positive influence on this Govern­ Our council members are: Shirley Mar, ment's direction in regard to legislation, the Alfina Grande, Glen Mcivor, Chris Reddy, John rules, the regulations that they are passing. The 180 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001 advocacy group, with their input and their remind all honourable members to bring enough consultation through the minister, is something I copies. think that all Manitobans will benefit from. National Child Day Hon. (Minister of Family Services So we will be watching very closely as this and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I apologize to the advocacy group goes through government as to what they are promoting, what they are looking House in regard to the numbers. My error, I am sorry. fo r out of government. I do congratulate the Government on finally organizing and getting I rise in celebration of National Child Day. the group going. As mentioned, I believe, in the We celebrate children not only fo r the joy and act, they will be meeting at least fo ur times a learning they bring us but also the hope they year. I will look fo rward to the minister advising bring us fo r the future. Instinctively, I think all me when the council meets and also sharing the of us know that a child's early experiences play a results with this Chamber. role throughout his or her life. Research has established this beyond any question. Hon. Jon Gerrard (Rive�r Heights): I ask for * (13:40) leave to speak on the minister's statement. The 1999 early years report, McCain and Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member Mustard, that was in Ontario, stated that have leave? conception to school age is the most critical time fo r brain development. A report indicates that Some Honourable Members: Leave. this is the critical time fo r development of emotional control, habitual ways of responding, Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. peer social skills, language and cognitive skills.

Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I would like to As early as 1995, Dr. Brian Postl recognized congratulate those who were chosen to be on the this fact and recommended, among other things, multicultural council. I 1hink this is a body the co-ordination of services fo r prenatal support which can play an imporltant role. I think it is programs fo r women, with a fo cus on nutrition also worthy of note that not all those who are support. I am pleased to say that the federal deserving were chosen or elected in one way or government and governments across Canada another to be on this council, and that it is very have begun to act on this research and on what important that this council be sensitive to, listen we knew already. We acknowledge and appreci­ to and consult with other communities who are ate the contribution of the fe deral government to not necessarily represented here. I think it is also support Manitoba's early childhood initiatives. very important that, as the council does its work, We have begun to work together across depart­ it have a clearer mandate than was initially given ments and across governments to support early it and with real input into what happens in this child development throughout our country. province. I hope that we will see that evolution over time. In Manitoba, the departments of Health, Education, Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, * * .,., Justice, Status of Women, Culture and Family Services and Housing have joined together to Mr. Speaker: Prior to recogmzmg the create Healthy Child Manitoba. In partnership honourable Minister of Family Services, I would with communities and families, we have just like to remind all members when tabling you established parent-child coalitions across the should have a copy fo r leaders of the parties and province. Parent-child centred activities are the Speaker. When making the ministerial being established, which promote positive statements, when you bring forward the copies, parenting, literacy, good nutrition and provide there should be a copy for the leaders of the parents with an opportunity to meet one another. parties, the Speaker and Manitoba practice has been to provide a copy fo r the House leaders, the We have initiated the Healthy Baby Whips and the critic. So I would just like to program, the first of its kind in Canada. This November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 181 program funds nutrition programs for pregnant I know that when we were in government, women across our province, along with an and as the Minister of Family Services, we did income supplement to ensure that babies get the initiate and undertake several new programs that best possible start to their life. looked at the whole concept of early child development. I am pleased to see that the We have returned the National Child Benefit Government is continuing to build on some of Supplement to children age six and under who those programs. I know that they have put more live in families that receive Employment and money into child care, and I laud that approach. Income Assistance. One group within our community that this We have enhanced the Child Day Care Government has not addressed is those mothers Program with a 27% increase over two years. that choose to stay at home and parent their This increased support enhanced wages for our children. We do need day care and adequate day workforce, funded more licensed spaces and care facilities. During the last election campaign, integrated more children with disabilities into we made a commitment to provide support our child care settings. through the way of tax relief fo r families that chose to have one parent stay at home and not enter the workforce so that they could care fo r In addition, we have expanded programs and nurture their children. Many families would brought in by the previous government, choose that option if they had the opportunity to including Baby First, EarlyStart and STOP F AS. do so. So we will continue to support that kind These programs continue to be effective in of policy on this side ofthe House. providing support and intervention to at-risk families. * (13:45) Through all of these programs, we have I would encourage the Government to take a embraced the principle of inclusion fo r children serious look at implementing some initiatives with special needs. A draft report today that would allow for the natural mother or father announced by the Canadian Council on Social in a family situation to be able to stay at home if Development demonstrates that we must ensure they chose to do so. We all know fam ilies that that we are inclusive in all that we do for our have parents who are there and attentive are children. likely to grow and thrive in a very positive way. I thank the Minister of Family Services fo r the Clearly we have more work to do, but I statement, and I look fo rward to some action on know that we do have the support of all some of the areas they have not addressed today. members in working with families and com­ Thank you. munities to give our children the best possible start in their lives. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask fo r leave to speak on the Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): I want minister's statement. to thank the Minister of Family Services fo r rising today in this House and making a Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member ministerial statement on National Child Day. I have leave? [A greed] do not think there is anyone in this House who would disagree that our children are our future. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Any opportunity to ensure that our children get Speaker, children are very, very important to all off to a good start in life as infants will only of us and making sure we have a strong future enhance their ability to grow, thrive, develop, fo r the children in Manitoba is absolutely learn, graduate, work and pay taxes. It is a circle essential. I think that we can look at the work that we certainly want to encourage. We all which the minister has referred to, the studies know that we do need a good tax base in order to done and described by Dr. Fraser Mustard, a deliver the programs that government needs to well-known researcher, and agree with the deliver. fundamental concept of trying to provide better 182 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 200 I supports for the children in this province, so that Administration fo r things like small hospitality children, when they grow up in their adolescent grants, tendered contracts, emergency purposes, years and as adults have a better chance and a and there are strict limits on the dollar amount better opportunity to contribute to Manitoba and that can be flowed under the authority of the to the world. General Manual of Administration.

Even knowing this, one of the fundamental Can the minister confirm that he or his concepts that Doctor Mustard has championed is deputy has delegated authority of the magnitude doing the research, measuring the results, to flow half a million dollars to Agassiz School looking at the outcomes to making sure that Division? things actually work. Then� is probably no better example of a good idea gone awry than the * (13:50) situation in adult education in this province. Hon. (Minister of Education, I speak to the minister to say make sure you Training and Youth): As I have said so often in have in place the clear goals, make sure you are the House in the last number of days, I do accept measuring the outcomes that you can deliver the the criticisms and recommendations of the results, because that is what we will be looking Provincial Auditor's report. I am quite certain for. that the Provincial Auditor, in his thorough report on this particular matter would have TABLING OF REPORTS flagged that issue. I again defer to the audited report and accept responsibility fo r decisions Hon. Becky Barrett (Milllister of Labour and that were made as well as responsibility fo r Immigration): I am pleased to rise today to undertaking the recommendations that the table the fo llowing reports, copies of which have Provincial Auditor makes to improve the system previously been distributed: the Office of the further, a system that the Provincial Auditor Fire Commissioner 2000-2001 Annual Report; notes this Governmentis making progress on. and the Annual Report 2000-2001 for Labour and Immigration. Minister of Education, Training and Youth Delegated Authority Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased Mr. (Minnedosa): Mr. to table the following annual reports, copies of Speaker, I would like to table a copy of a page which have been previously distributed: the indicating the delegated authority that ministers 2000-2001 Annual Report of the Department of have. The minister now has before him the Consumer and Corporate Affairs; 2000-2001 schedule indicating the delegated authority Annual Report of the Vital Statistics Agency; granted to ministers and deputy ministers. Can 2000-2001 Annual Report of The Propeny he tell me by this table where he has the Registry Agency; 2000-2001 Annual Report of delegated authority to fund half a million dollars the Companies Office; 2000-2001 Annual to a school division under that provision of Report of the Manitoba Se:curities Commission; delegated authority? 2000 Annual Report of the Residential Tenancies Branch; and 2000 Annual Report of Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, the Residential Tenancies Commission. Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I again defer to the Provincial Auditor's report. Global ORAL QUESTION PERIOD funding fo r the system, of course, is approved by Treasury Board and Cabinet. Funding fo r Agassiz School! Division individual school divisions is delegated authority Adult LearningCe11tre s-Funding in The Public Schools Act. This particular decision was made in support of the education of Mr. Harold Gilleshamm•�r (Minnedosa): Mr. children, something that was acknowledged in Speaker, delegated authority is a process the Provincial Auditor's report. The Provincial contained in the Ge:neral Manual of Auditor has criticized the method of payment. I November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 183 accept that criticism. We accept the Provincial Mr. Speaker: Order. Auditor's review, as well as his assessment that this Government is making significant progress Point of Order and improvements to the system of adult learning centres in this province. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Gilleshammer: I would ask the minister to Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should fo cus on that page of delegated authority that is be as brief possible, deal with the matter raised before him. Has he been given approval fo r and not provoke debate. It was a very delegated authority that exceeds what is in the straightforward question. We would like a manual of administration? straightforward answer fromthis minister.

Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, a number of Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of months ago this Government undertook to Education and Training, on the same point of engage the services of the Provincial Auditor to order. get to the bottom of a situation which quite apparently, as was made apparent by the Mr. Caldwell: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I believe I said Provincial Auditor, was out of control. I defer to that I have fullconfidence in the deputy. the Provincial Auditor's judgment on these * (13:55) matters. I accept the Provincial Auditor's criti­ cisms on these matters and I expect-respect-and Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, I we will be acting as a government on the would like to take this opportunity to remind all recommendations of the Provincial Auditor. ministers that Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should be brief as possible, deal with Agassiz School Division the matter raised and to not provoke debate. Adult Learning Centres-Funding So the honoura ble minister has concluded Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): his comment. Obviously the Minister of Education refuses to answer the questions, We have seen time and *** time again, though, that when he does answer questions, he is all over the map. Today, on Minister of Education, Training and Youth CJOB, the minister indicated that his deputy Delegated Authority approved half a million dollars in funding to Agassiz School Division in an inappropriate Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): My fashion. Mr. Speaker, did the deputy approve direct question to the Minister of Education is: Is that money without the minister's knowledge? it normal practice within his department for the deputy minister to have delegated authority to Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, approve half a million dollars in support to a Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I have school division without the minister's knowl­ confidence and respect fo r my deputy minister. edge? As a government, we have engaged actively in supporting the public education system, both Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, from a fiscal point of view and from a leadership Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, there is not point of view. much about this whole issue that is normal practice. We have a situation where millions and The decisions regarding adult learning millions of dollars of taxpayers' money are centres in this province have been very, very invested in an adult learning centre program with difficult. This has been a very challenging no provisions for accountability, no legislative situation. I note in the same interview to which framework to support it, something, the member refers- incidentally-

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. 184 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001

Point of Order should have been done before this sad affair came to light, period. Since the Deloitte Touche Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House audit identified- Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Official be as brief as possible, deal with the matter Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. raised and not provoke debate. Point of Order Mr. Speaker, all too long this minister keeps dragging on when he has been asked Mr. Laurendeau: On a point of order, Mr. straightforward questions. Speaker, Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government with the matter raised and not provoke debate. House Leader, on the same point of order. How many times do you have to inform this minister of that citation? Hon. (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the Opposition is Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government apparently trying to shut down the Minister of House Leader, on the same point of order. Education (Mr. Caldwell}, in being forthcoming and explaining entirely all the situation. I think, Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, it is part of a in the interest of public knowledge, it is pattern. The minister is answering the question. important to allow a fu ll answer. He is putting the question into a context. I understand why the other side would fe el Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by provoked on this matter. the honourable Official! Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by Beauchesne's Citation 417: Answers to questions the honourable Official Opposition House should deal with the matter raised. Leader, he does have a point of order, Beauchesne's Citation 417: Answers to questions * * �. should deal with the matter that is raised.

Mr. Speaker: Has the honourable minister Has the honourable minister concluded? concluded his comment?

*** Mrs. Mitchelson: Since the minister did not answer the question, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask Minister of Education, Training and Youth the Minister of Education: Is it normal practice Delegated Authority within his department fo r the deputy minister to make decision expenditures of half a million Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, dollars through delegated authority without the we have just witnessed in this House an minister's knowledge? admission by a minister who has said-

Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, as I was about to Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. respond to the last question, there is very little about this particular matter that is normal Mr. Speaker: Order. I had recognized the practice. It is not normal practice to have honourable Member for Russell. The honourable $17 million expended in an adult learning centre Member fo r River East, on a point of order. without provisions fo r fiscal or program accountability. Point of Order In the Throne Sp��ech this year, we committed to providing adult learning centre Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Mr. legislation in this province, something that Speaker, there is obviously some extreme November 20,2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 185 sensitivity on the opposite side of the House. one carefully crafted sentence? Beauchesne's Normally speaking, when a member gets up to Citation 409 says a question must be brief. A ask their first question, they are allowed a preamble need not exceed one carefully drawn preamble. Obviously, members on the Govern­ sentence. ment side of the House are fe eling a little uncomfortable with our line of questioning and Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by would like to shut the questioners down. the honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's * (14:00) Citation 409(2): A preamble should not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. I would ask the Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government honourable Member for Russell to please put his House Leader, on the same point of order. question.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House * * * Leader): I am glad the Opposition acknowl­ edges the rule that there is a preamble. It is a Mr. Derkach: Thank you very much, Mr. one-sentence preamble, Mr. Speaker, and we Speaker. Will the Minister of Education today in will certainly hold them to that. this House admit to Manitobans that he flowed money to the Agassiz School Division without authority, in an underhanded way, which is not Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by reflective of what a minister of the Crown the honourable Member for River East, I would should do? just remind all honourable members of Beauchesne's Citation 409(2): A preamble Hon. (Minister of Finance): Mr. should not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. Speaker, there seems to be quite a bit of I ask the co-operation of all honourable confusion about the policies the former members. government themselves fo llowed while they were in government. First of all, the Minister of *** Education and Youth has the authority to provide grants to public schools under part 9 of Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, we have just The Public Schools Act. That is a legal witnessed in this House a very sorry tale, where authority. As well,under part 9 of the Grants and a Minister of Education has acknowledged that Levies Education Support Program, they have he has broken the law and he has flowed money authority to administer operational support against the authority that has been granted to programs. him.

Further, they get authority from Treasury Mr. Speaker, this minister has contradicted Board as to the overall amounts of money that himself time and time again. I ask this minister- they have to expend in a particular year, including in the year in question $12 million for Some Honourable Members: Oh,oh. adult education programs, and the minister and his deputy minister have the right to deal with Mr. Speaker: Order. those grants according to the fo rmulas established in the authority they receive through Point of Order Treasury Board. Mr. Mackintosh: Aside from the nonsense in The minister followed all the legal the preamble, which of course cannot form the requirements and Treasury Board requirements basis of a point of order, just a point, but we certainly have just said that we will hold the and lived up to his responsibilities in this regard. Opposition to their recognition that a question Accountability should have one carefully worded sentence as a preamble. Mr. Speaker, we are holding them to Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, that right now. Would you please ensure there is will the Minister of Education admit to 186 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001

Manitobans in this House today that he knew the Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, finally an admission enrolment numbers were wrong and that he of truth from the Government. There is one knew he was flowing tlile money, which in honest minister there. essence broke the law of this Government or of any government in this province? I ask the Minister of Finance: Does it meet his standard of public accountability when a Hon. Drew Caldwell (Miinister of Education, minister of this House comes in here and is Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, the asked on seven occasions if he made such a Minister of Finance just answered that question. payment and he denies it? Does that meet his standard of accountability? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Education again: Will he admit in Mr. Selinger: I have to take this opportunity to this House that indeed he took this matter to commend the minister for getting on top of this Treasury Board and was given the approval to issue the minute he became the minister, fo r go ahead and flow money in a way which moving expeditiously to bring this adult learning contravened the rules and the laws of this centre issue under control, for having the province? courage to go to the Provincial Auditor and have it investigated without fe ar or favour as to what Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): the findings would be, and then to accept the Once again, fo r the clarification of the members recommendations of the Auditor and act on opposite, the minister acted under the legal them. authority granted to him under part 9 of The Public Schools Act. He acb!d in accordance with Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the part 9 of the Grants and Levies Education Minister of Finance who is the chief financial Support Program. He acted within the total officer of this province: Is it acceptable to him to authority granted to him fo r budgets of sit in a Cabinet with a minister who has not told $868 million for operating and capital grants, as the truth to this Legislature? well as $12 million fo r adult education. Those are the authorities he acted within. Hon. (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) has properly identified the financial procedures in place, in Minister of Education, Training and Youth fact procedures that we plan on changing in Accountability legislation. Mr. Darren Praznik (Lnc du Bonnet): Mr. Members opposite were quoting from radio Speaker, I ask the Minister of Finance then: Is it broadcasts this morning. I heard a radio broad­ acceptable to his standard as the chief financial cast this morningthat indicated that the members officer of this province to accept a payment that opposite knew that red flags were flying in 1998 the Provincial Auditor has clearly recognized as and chose to do nothing. I also heard on a radio being made to Agassiz School Division for adult broadcast this morning that they were aware education, knowing that was not the case? Does during the 1999 election there were cost that meet his standard? overruns in the adult education branch. * (14:10) Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): In answer to the member's qw!stion, no, it does not I would like to refer members opposite to meet our standard. The minister has admitted the First Quarter statement put out by the fo rmer that. The Premier (Mr. Doe:r) has said it was the Minister of Finance, now the Education critic, wrong thing to do. In additilon, we have changed where he identifies cost overruns in September the funding authority and the program so it will of'99, a month afterthe election was called, cost not happen again, and as a further degree of overruns in Justice and Health, no acknowledg­ assurance we will now bring in legislation to ment in the transition of an $11-million cost address this question in a final way. overrun under their administration. November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 187

Minister of Education, Training and Youth The Auditor- Resignation Request Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mr. Speaker: Order. Premier. On Friday, the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) was asked a direct question by Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The the Free Press: Did he have Treasury Auditor stated that there was absolutely no Board approval? His reply was, and I quote: Of system of accountability, program expectations, course, we do this as a government. monitoring, financial accountability, standards to deal with profitversus non-profit adult education Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the centres administered by a public school division reporter's comments and the minister's and paid for by the Department of Education comments from the serum, because I think it is without any controls from the provincial important that we get the fu ll flavour of what Cabinet. was said. Reporter: Who approved this funding for Agassiz? Mr. Caldwell: The Province­ The Auditor went on to say on page 99 in excuse me, the Minister of Education. Reporter: 2000 that the government of the day, this No. Did you, did Treasury Board? Minister of Government, has made significant improvements Education: Of course, we do this as a or has made improvements over the system that government. was put in place and inherited by the Government. The Auditor went on to say that Well, yesterday in this House the minister other improvements have to be made. We accept stated no less than three times that he flowed the fact that we have made improvements. We half a million dollars under his department's own accept the fact that more improvements will be delegated authority. He repeated this assertion made. We accept the fact that we will be on CJOB this morning. This most inappropriate changing the legislation, and we will be doing so conduct of a minister cannot be allowed to to make sure that this kind of unaccountable continue. money never flows three steps removed from government again in the province of Manitoba. Will the Premier do the right thing and remove that Minister of Education from his Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, the Premier assured portfolio? all Manitobans in 1999, and I quote from the 1999 March 15 Steinbach Herald: The NDP do Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): This was a system not need an ethics commission. I will be the established by the former government that ethics commission of the NDP in government. delegated authority from the Cabinet to the department, and the department in tum delegated Mr. Speaker, is the Premier prepared to do this authority to the school divisions, who then what he said he would do and act as the ethics would bill the government fo r adult education commissioner and do the right thing and get rid enrolees. It became a system where the­ of the Minister of Education? [interjection] If I could continue. It became a system in '97-98 and '98-99 where amounts of Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, if the Auditor had monies that were budgeted into the '99-2000 stated that no improvements had been made budget, the amount of money budgeted was since we took office in 1999 then questions of $6 million. The amount of money being spent the minister's incompetence would be legitimate, when we came into office under the delegated but the Auditor stated time and time again that authority, without any admission from members improvements have been made to the system. opposite, was $17 million, $1 1 million over budget. For them now to fe ign indignation in this One improvement, by the way, is the fact House and wash their hands of a system they that the budget was $17 million, $11 million established that was obviously at fault from the overexpended when we came into office. It is very core, I findvery, very irresponsible. now on target fo r $14 million, a $3-million 188 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001

reduction from the time members opposite were The real issue here is in 1998 there was a in government. recommendation to go and have an audit of the adult education. In 1999, the former Finance Secondly, the fact of the matter is that when Minister acknowledged in the election campaign members opposite had the ethical challenge to there was trouble-cost overruns going on in adult take this matter to the Provincial Auditor, they education. I want to tell the members of the chose not to do so. When this minister had the public that not only did he not let us know in the ethical option to go to the Auditor in 2001, he financial statement that this matter was did so, Mr. Speaker. $1 1 million over budget when we came into office, I have checked with the transition Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. committees, and they also did not tell us that this was an area that we should go after. If we would Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind all have gone after this issue with an Auditor's honourable members, when the Speaker rises, report, like we have now, in 1998, we would the Speaker should be he:ard in silence. Also, I have saved tens of millions of dollars, not have would ask the co-operation of all the members of this grief with Manitoba school divisions that is the House for a little decorum. There is the going on now. viewing public out thene. Also, the clock is running, and we would like to get to as many Adult Education-Funding questions and answers as we can. Accountability

Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Premier. Speaker-

Knowing that the Minister of Education Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. (Mr. Caldwell) forced a school division to falsify their enrolment records, knowing that the Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member Minister of Education forced a school division to for River Heights has the floor. hide money, acting irresjponsibly, on CJOB, I would like to remind the Premier of his words, Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, over the last week, on March 3, 1999, whe111 he was asked with we have heard repeated attempts by the present regard to irresponsible actions to people under government to discredit the Conservatives, who his employ, and I quote, Mr. Speaker, the put in place what is acknowledged to be an Premier said: I would take responsibility, under absurd system of funding adult education responsible government, and resign. operating in September '99 when they were elected, yet a major basis for the Provincial Will the Premier now do the right thing? Auditor's report were anomalies the Provincial Will he either remove the Minister of Education Auditor identified in the African Immigrant or will he do what he said he was going to do Program, which became Classroom 56. and resign? I ask the Minister of Education to admit that Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Auditor's report, the program and Classroom 56 were set up on which by the way was released four weeks ago his watch, and not just a little bit on his watch, and has on page 99 a comment about the Agassiz about a year after he started as minister, and School Division, stated the department dealt therefore the anomalies are fully his respon­ with this issue in terms of the deficit, and I sibility. acknowledged on Friday that accounting for public monies should accurately reflect the Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, intent and the actual decisions. We said that on Training and Youth): Of course, Mr. Speaker, Friday, we said it yesterday, we say it today. We we on this side of the House believe that adult accept the Auditor's report .. learning is a very important function of the province of Manitoba and of the opportunities * (14:20) available to all Manitobans. We also believe it is November 20,2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 189 very important that there be fiscal responsibility Finance (Mr. Selinger) that he did not follow in adult learning centres and program excellence normal standards, will the Premier now ask for in adult learning centres. the removal of his Minister of Education from his current position? As we were moving through this file,upon coming into office and realizing that there was Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I have listened to an $11-million overexpenditure that members the Minister of Finance's answers to questions opposite presided over, we began to review in a and the Minister of Education, and it is meaningful way the operations of adult learning regrettable that members opposite were not centres in the province. During the course of that listening to the answers to the questions that review, other things came to light for which the were forthcoming in the House. The answers Provincial Auditor was brought into this process, dealt with the delegated authority under The fulfilling a responsibility to the public interest Public Schools Act. We accept the issues that we were not going to jeopardize as the were raised. I admit I stated that on Friday in Provincial Auditor acknowledges. Question Period.

Mr. Gerrard: I ask the Minister of Education in There are a couple of real important my supplementary to acknowledge that if he had statements. On page 100, Singleton said that the acted at any time within the first year of his 2001-2002 year represents important ministry to change this absurd system that was improvements. The member opposite talks as if present and put in place a responsible procedure the status quo from '99, '98 and '97 was in place. for fiscal and program accountability, then he Important improvements were made. The could have prevented the anomalies and the Auditor goes on to say that further improve­ problems related to Classroom 56, which are ments must be made. We accept that. We not detailed in the Provincial Auditor's report. only accept it, members opposite, when they have no facts, can throw around rhetoric. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I can only assume that the Member for River Heights has not been The bottom line is we came into office, the paying attention in this regard. We have been program had $6 million in the budget. When you acting methodically on a regular basis to bring are spending $17 million for a $6-million budget some regulation, some excellence, some respon­ item and you do not put it in your financial sibility and accountability to an adult learning report, what do you call that? I know what I call centre program in the province that operated in it. the absence of any responsibility or accounta­ bility. Agassiz School Division Adult Learning Centres-Funding In doing that, we have been conscious, as the Provincial Auditor acknowledges, to mitigate Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): My the impacts upon learners. We accept the question is for the Minister of Finance. The recommendations of the Auditor. We accept the Minister of Finance, when he was asked about criticisms of the Auditor, and we will be moving the authorities to the Minister of Education, forward with legislation this session to ensure listed the legislative authorities that a Minister of that such a thing does not occur again. Education had. What he did not tell this House is that there is a General Manual of Administration Minister of Education, Training and Youth that covers how that minister acts under his Resignation Request legislative authorities. In that manual it requires the expenditure of public funds to be made Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. meeting Treasury Board requirements that Speaker, my supplementary to the Premier, I ask provide a schedule of how much a minister can the Premier, with the mismanagement of his spend without going back to Treasury Board. Minister of Education, with the admission by his Minister of Education that he did not use normal I want to ask this minister: Is he telling practice, with the admission by his Minister of Manitobans that there is not one document filed 190 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 200 I

with his Treasury Board that references in any Education, including $12 million for adult way the $500,000 allocation to Agassiz that was learning centres. They are granted the authority made for students that were not in the to manage that resource within the formula as classroom? Is there not one document, Mr. prescribed. Minister? Delegation of Authority Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Well, I think I should start by saying there was Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): In the no documentation at Treasury Board on the minister's own manual of administration, the $17 million, including the overexpenditure of it. approval levels that a minister has, the highest one that a minister has is $300,000 for tendered As I indicated before:, the minister and his purchases, low bid. Where there are insufficient officials in the Department of Education funds, remember in Agassiz's case, they were operated under authority that was formula-based over their reported budget. This was an and were able to manoeuvre within that to insufficient-fund case. There is no authority at accomplish the objectives of properly funding all for a minister to do it on his own. the public schools. Where an error has been made, the minister has publicly acknowledged it, I ask this member again: Will he tender to as well as taking several measures to improve this House, will he table to this House today, a accountability including changing the basis for copy of the delegation of authority that his own funding adult learning centres and then manual requires each minister and deputy to following through with an Auditor's report and have? Will he table it here to back up his now making a commitment to bring forward statement that this minister had the authority? legislation in this session to tighten it up even further. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): There are two forms of delegated authority. One Minister of Education, Training and Youth is management specific to grants for specific Delegation Manual organizations, and the other one is formula­ based. The minister was operating under a Mr. Darren Praznik (La4� du Bonnet): This is formula-based delegated authority. very important to understand. The General Manual of Administration that governs how Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, on a new question. ministers deal with their kgal authority requires a minister to go to Treasury Board unless they Mr. Speaker: The Member for Lac du Bonnet, are within the limitations that this manual has on a new question. set. There is no limitation that allows a minister to spend more than half a million dollars. If there Minister of Education, Training and Youth is, this minister should show it to us today. Delegation of Authority

Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. I want to ask this minister, given that his Speaker, again, in his own manual of adminis­ manual of administration also requires that the tration there is a requirement that all delegations delegation documents be kept with the deputy be kept in the office of the deputy minister to minister, there must be a delegation document. ensure that the legal authority is there. If this Will he table it now before the House to show minister is telling this House that the Minister of that this minister did in fact have the authority to Education (Mr. Caldwell) had the legal author­ do what he said he did? ity, then I want him today to provide that * (14:30) documentation. Hon. Greg Selinger (Miinister of Finance): So I ask him: Will he provide it? A simple Once again, the minister and his department question. have the authority to manage the envelope they are granted through the Budget process. In this Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): case it was $868 million 1i>r the Department of Well, once again, as I indicated, the department November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 191

and the minister had the ability to allocate To quote from the editorial: The minister's resources according to the formula prescribed, solution was an unprecedented knee-jerk and if the Auditor would have had a problem reaction based on the fear that documented with that he would have mentioned it. What he mismanagement of adult education might spread did not indicate on page 99 was that money that to the regular classrooms. There was no evi­ was intended for an adult learning centre was dence of this. By taking away the ratepayers' used to address a deficit situation, and the elected representatives, the minister has exposed minister has publicly acknowledged that was an the current school division system of taxation error and has said that that will not occur again. with representation as a sham. In reality, the Province runs the show and gets what it wants, Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Lac regardless of local concerns. It is obvious that du Bonnet, on a new question. politics are at play when the minister slams Morris-Macdonald trustees without showing Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, again, this was not a equal anger at his own departmental officials. case of just a simple error. This was a case-and The end result is that Morris-Macdonald tax­ all one has to do is reference the document from payers, not provincial taxpayers, will now be the secretary-treasurer, a CGA who is bound to footing the bill for Department of Education be honest, who indicates that it was the intention mismanagement. It is highly suspicious that the of that Government, of that minister, to funnel same department that established the adult money through another adult education centre education funding formula and lacks regulations when they knew it would not be used for will now be the one that decides how much students. Morris-Macdonald taxpayers will pay back and when, without local accountability. That smells Mr. Speaker, if this minister is saying there of cover-up and therein lies the real scandal. is authority for that kind of corruption, let him stand here today and defend it. Mr. Speaker, the citizens of Manitoba find themselves with a Minister of Education (Mr. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I think the member Caldwell) who believes the department is his would benefit by listening to the answer. The own fiefdom to run as he sees fit regardless of minister has clearly indicated that it was an error the rules, a minister who sees rules as an to allow money allocated for one purpose to be obstacle to go around, not something to work used for another purpose, and he has indicated within. Thank you. that that formula that was used to do that has been changed to a program basis for funding. He Ecole Varennes has further indicated that he will now bring forward legislation to strengthen the accounta­ Ms. (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, I am bility mechanism there. These are all initiatives pleased to announce that Ecole Varennes, that he took to get the Auditor to look at this Varennes School in my constituency has just matter and then to follow and abide by the celebrated its 50th anniversary. Just after World recommendations of the Auditor. War II, expanding residential populations in St. Vital meant the need for new schools. Varennes Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has School was one of those schools built to meet expired. the needs of the first wave of baby boomers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Officially opened on February 1, 1952, as a six-room school, the initial enrolment was 235 Morris-Macdonald School Division students. From 1951 to 1984, Varennes was an English school eventually offering classes from Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. kindergarten to Grade 9. Enrolment peaked in Speaker, an editorial from the Headingley 1961 with 711 students. In 1978, the Ecole Headliner entitled "Education minister abandons Lavallee annex was created, bringing the first Morris-Macdonald taxpayers" is a damning French immersion classes to St. Vital. The indictment of this minister's recent actions. program rapidly expanded to the kindergarten to 192 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20,2001

Grade 4 St. Vital immersion or Varennes this sorry affair. Under the "I" we have immersion program. indignation, indignation on the part of Manitobans and the school divisions that have The increasing d��mand for French been sorely disappointed by this minister's immersion programs led 1to the transfer of the actions. Under the "N" we have nonsense, utter English junior high students to other local nonsense, in fact, when it comes to the minister's schools in I 982. By 1984, the explosion of attempts to pass the buck on the scandal to his French immersion students required the facilities departmental staff, to his deputy minister, to of the entire school. Tha1t year, the remaining Treasury Board, to anyone but himself. Under English education students left, and Varennes the "G" we have go, as in go away, step aside became a solely French immersion facility and let someone with more credibility run the named Ecole Varennes. province's education system. Under the "0" we have over, as we soon expect this minister's days By 1989, approximat��ly 20 percent of the as the man charged with managing the affairs of total student population in St. Vital was enrolled education in this province to soon be. in the French immersion program. In 1995, Ecole Varennes returned to housing Kinder­ Yes, it is bingo, Mr. Speaker, except garten to Grade 8 classes in French immersion. Manitobans have lost out in this particular game. Over its long history, Varennes school has It is time for the Premier (Mr. Doer), as the head received special recognition and its students bingo caller, to start up a new game with a new have won many awards. minister who can make sure the chips fall into place properly the next time. Special recognition for teachers has also happened. Perhaps most notable is Mr. AI *(14:40) Thiessen, a social studies and science teacher at Scout Leaders Varennes who instigated the popular Varennes school museum. This vital teaching tool was Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): I rise today opened by the mayor in 1979. In 1981, Mr. to bring to the attention of all members the Theissen received the Emerson Amott Memorial recently honoured Scout leaders of Flin Flon. As Award, and in 1982 he was awarded the Hi1roy an honorary Scout for a number of years myself, Fellowship from the Canadian Teachers' society. it is my pleasure to announce that this past October four distinguished Scout leaders were Mr. Speaker, I would! like to extend my honoured for their hard work and dedication to warmest wishes to Ecole Varennes in recog­ their community and district. nition of the school's 50th anniversary. On this happy occasion, it is important to stop and think Ron Potkonjak received a medal of merit. that past and present staff, parents and students Shirley Siemens received her 25-year pin and have served the school so well and have made certificate. Barb Peake received a 1 0-year pin the school the success it is today. and service medal, and Sharon Grocholski received the IS-year service pin from the Girl Minister of Education, Training and Youth Guide Association.

Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, All honorees have contributed countless for the past few days Mcmitobans have been hours of their time to ensure the success of the treated to quite a shameful display from the Scouts program in the Flin Flon region. Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell). It harkens to the days of a certain former British Columbia Scouts offers children the opportunity to premier and a little affair called bingogate. engage in meaningful and productive activities Allow me to elaborate. while contributing to their community through a variety of public services such as the highway Under the "B" we have bafflegab, the clean-up proj ect which serves to keep our continuous stream of gibberish coming from the highways attractive and litter-free, and tree minister's mouth as he tries to talk his way out of planting. November 20,2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 193

Scouts learn the importance of teamwork The dedication ceremonies reflected this and friendship through the many activities and international effort with the attendance of the projects that are held throughout the year, and Dutch consul and entertainment by the Winnipeg these activities are only possible as a result of Dutch community. In recognition of the united the dedication by the volunteers who support effort to rebuild the windmill, the Dutch flag Scouts Canada. Furthermore, each year the flew alongside the Canadian flag on September Scouts of Flin Flon hold a variety of activities 1. for youth, from the Kub Car Rally to the annual Mr. Speaker, through the determination of winter camp. Scouts enjoy exciting camping staff, volunteers and local and international trips, ice fishing, outdoor games and sports, craftsmen, the most recognizable feature of the swimming outings and other activities. Through­ museum is once again on display. It is another out the course of these activities, Scout members example of the determination of area residents experience the positive benefits of friendship, and their ability to overcome challenges. Every­ loyalty and community spirit coupled with a one involved with the reconstruction of the healthy appreciation of our environment. windmill is to be commended on making what seemed impossible a reality. On behalf of the entire Legislative Assembly, I congratulate each honoree's com­ Mr. Speaker: That is the fifth members' mitment and long-time service to this most statement. We have already had five. We are worthwhile and important program. Thank you, allowed fivea day. Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Mennonite Heritage Museum Windmill House Business Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): On October 22, 2000, a senseless act of arson was responsible Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House for the destruction of one of Manitoba's most Leader): Mr. Speaker, I am rising under Rule recognizable landmarks. In the early hours of 2.(7), which permits the Government House that day, the windmill at the Mennonite Heritage Leader to interrupt the debate on the address in Museum was almost completely destroyed by reply to the Speech from the Throne for up to fire, stunning local residents as well as many three days to call government business. I am former visitors to the museum from around the interrupting the Throne Speech Debate today in world. order to deal with second reading of Bill 2, The Security Management (Various Acts Amended) While museum officials vowed almost Act. I would therefore ask that, under Orders of immediately to rebuild the structure, many the Day, Bi11 2 be called for second reading. wondered if it could be done, given the uniqueness of the building and lack of specific SECOND READINGS original blueprints. Yet, less than one year after the fire,on Saturday, September 1 of this year, Biii2-The Security Management (Various the new windmill was dedicated and opened on Acts Amended) Act the site of the original structure. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice Mr. Speaker, the effort to rebuild the and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I move, windmill was truly an international one. Shortly seconded by the Minister of Transportation and after the fire, museum officials were able to Government Services (Mr. Ashton), that Bill 2, make contact with Lukas Verbij, a Dutch The Security Management (Various Acts millwright from Holland, to lead the recon­ Amended) Act, be now read a second time and struction program. Under the direction of Mr. referred to a committee of this House. Verbij, many local contractors participated in the rebuilding of the windmill. Motion presented. 194 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20,2001

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Spc!aker, all the available Many of the changes that are set out in this intelligence certainly indicates that Manitoba is a bill are therefo re not surprisingly from those low risk in terms of terrorist activity. None­ who work on the front lines of emergency theless, we must be constantly vigilant. We must measures and in areas of administration that deal bring to bear a new lens on what we can do as a with the emergencies that we have experienced provincial jurisdiction to both prevent terrorist in Manitoba. We will continue to be vigilant activity and respond in as efficient a way as with regard to what changes in law should be possible. brought into this Legislature. We will be increasingly vigilant by way of the new tools of We recognize that the primary role in a new co-operative movement across not just all respect of terrorism dotes, by way of the the lines of authority within this province, but Constitution, rest with th(� federal government. across the country. For example, Mr. Speaker, Examples are aeronautics, even, fo r example, next week I will be attending a meeting of the security check-in at the airports; national ministers responsible fo r justice in Canada, and defence; the Criminal Code; immigration; of the primary, if not the sole-agenda item, is course, customs; international trade. Those are responding to terrorism. We will be very proud some examples. It is inde(�d. I think, very good as one jurisdiction to talk about the changes that to have national standards when it comes to we have introduced into this Legislature, and threats to national security and, as well, ensure which we seek approval fo r, but we will hear that, by way of the law 1enforcement agencies from other jurisdictions what they have that come under the jurisdiction of the federal discovered using the new lens. government,notably the RCMP and CSIS, we have that national networking. This is a new reality, Mr. Speaker. We are asking questions of ourselves that we never Mr. Speaker, we also have to acknowledge thought would be relevant before September 11. that there are many provincial laws in place that I suspect, therefore, that the legislation that has can be very useful in both preventing terrorist been introduced by way of Bill 2 will be just a activity and responding. There are, beyond that, beginning. I believe this will be an ongoing even many more protocols in place. process with the idea of sharing what is happening out there. I anticipate we will have This Province has had some unfortunate fu rther changes if not to legislation certainly to issues to deal with in terms of emergency events. protocol. In particular, of course, our long-standing challenge of dealing with floods in this province The legislation, by and large, clarifies roles has ensured that we do have effective mecha­ and responsibilities. It does impose some new nisms in place to respond to emergency situ­ requirements on the citizens of Manitoba to ations of whatever kind. As well, in preparation ensure that we have a system that is based on fo r the Y2K matter, there were new initiatives integrity in terms of reducing the risks of undertaken and new linkages in networks put in terrorist activity, recognizing that this is no time place. fo r uncertainty in the law. So we certainly look fo rward to the insights of members ofthis House

* (14:50) and others from the public to ensure that we have the strongest bill possible. So, Mr. Speaker, we are well positioned in this province to move ahead employing, as I Mr. Speaker, Bill 2 contains amendments to described it, this new le:ns. We have asked nine acts involving responsibilities under seven ourselves a difficult question, recognizing that it ministers, and so it is my role as House Leader is indeed very difficult to think like a terrorist. to usher this legislation through, this omnibus We have asked of ourselves: What can we do legislation through, recognizing,of course, that differently? I commend the Opposition party the respective ministers will be accountable fo r leaders fo r their involvement in the all-party task the amendments and will be available to answer fo rce, and we asked the:m. It is a difficult questions as it respects the acts under their question to answer. departments. November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 195

A part of the new omnibus security bill safety. These amendments do not make security includes provisions for amendment of The plans mandatory for all dangerous handling Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation activities. Which facilities and operations would Act. In the wake of the tragic events of be required to have security plans would be September 11. we wanted to identify determined by assessing the degree of risk and installations and activities that were vulnerable the type of dangerous goods involved. Factors and that might used as a means to harming our such as the toxicity, flammability or citizens. As part of our modem lifestyle, there explosiveness of the material being handled, are a number of commodities which are quantities and nature of the handling and transported, stored and used throughout the locations would all be factors in determining province which could if misused cause which operations would be high priority for plan substantial harm. Gasoline is an obvious development. example, but chemicals that are used in industrial processes and agricultural chemicals The types of facilities that would be are also found in many areas of Manitoba. There considered might include bulk fuel storage and are also a number of industrial by-products, as handling depots, hazardous waste storage and well as consumer products even, that become handling facilities, chemical storage, various hazardous waste, and these too could cause large-scale dangerous goods transportation harm. operations, and so forth. The main security measures would go beyond what is presently The dangerous goods and hazardous wastes covered by legislation that relate to mainly safe are presently regulated under this act. The act containment of materials and would deal mainly permits the Province to require emergency with access and surveillance issues. response plans, and a number of facilities and activities are covered by such plans. These plans Although we believe that dangerous goods are by their very nature reactive, how to deal and hazardous wastes are properly and safely with spills, fires and so forth. Their preventative handled today in Manitoba and the risk of a aspect generally deals with technical safeguards malevolent act involving these materials is to prevent leaks, spills and fires rather than small, we also believe it is prudent to plan preventing someone from tampering with the prevention of the unthinkable. operation. Manitoba Conservation is already evaluating

Unfortunately, this latter possibility is a the various risk factors for operations involving · dimension of security that is now part of our dangerous goods and contaminants. The process everyday lives. of determining which facilities will require security plans will be well underway when this We are proposing to add three new sections legislation is hopefully proclaimed. We will be to the order-making powers under the act: first, working with industry to ensure that what is the power to order any person who handles done is practical and in line with what is dangerous goods or contaminants to develop a happening all over this continent in the wake of security plan; second, the power to order any September 11. person who handles dangerous goods or contaminants to implement all or part of the As part of the omnibus bill, we are making plan; third, the power to order any person who changes to The Emergency Measures Act. This handles dangerous goods or contaminants to take bill expands EMO's authority to augment any steps the director deems necessary to ensure existing preparedness, response and recovery the security of these materials or the facility in capabilities in areas of risk identified by recent which they are contained. government reviews of security concerns.

Where any of these required actions might This bill increases the profile and violate the terms of an existing environmental responsibilities of the Emergency Measures licence, a new section is being added that will Organization,an arm of course of Transportation override those terms in the interest of public and Government Services, which had previously 1 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001

been known as Manitoba Emergency Objections made m the course of Management Organization.. proceedings in the Provincial Court will be determined by that court. Other objections will Under this bill, the province, through be determined by the Court of Queen's Bench. MEMO, has the authority to develop emergency When considering an objection to the disclosure plans for municipal gove:rnments that do not of this sort of information, the court will weigh make emergency plans on their own. The the public interest in disclosure of the Province would do this work on a cost-recovery information and the right to a fair trial or a fair basis and charge the municipal government for proceeding under a provincial statute against the our work as a province in developing their plans. importance of the public interest in non­ disclosure. The court will be empowered to Also, this bill gives the Province increased authorize disclosure or to prohibit disclosure of authority in the managemtmt of essential goods some or all of the information. and services. Previously, the Province was authorized, by law, to distribute essential goods A decision of the court will be appealable. and services. This bill expands the role of the All hearings and appeals will be heard in private Province by allowing it to purchase and in order to protect the information until the court distribute essential goods :md services with the has made its decision. intention of avoiding price gouging on the black market or panic buying. Local governments The amendments mirror changes that the retain the responsibility for the first response to federal government is making to the Canada any emergency situations, including terrorist Evidence Act in Bill C-36; however, our attacks. This bill does not change that. amendment here is certainly more narrow than the amendments proposed by the federal In the event of a large-scale event where the government. local government would require the assistance of the provincial government,the department with * (15:00) principal responsibility for the issue will manage the event. For example, the Department of First, the federal legislation allows an Conservation would be principally responsible objection to the disclosure on the basis of any for situations around a flood. specified public interest. The Manitoba bill sets out a definition of specified public interest. The MEMO, under the minister, would manage a intention is to limit the application in Manitoba co-ordinated response of provincial departments to matters clearly relating to security issues. and, if necessary, request the assistance of the federal government. Both local and provincial governments retain the authority to enact a state Second, the federal legislation will allow the of emergency of special powers if special federal Minister of Justice to issue a certificate powers are needed to manage an event. overriding court determinations respecting the disclosure of certain information. This bill does The bill will amend The Manitoba Evidence not contain such a provision. The courts will Act to create a process for the protection of have the final say. certain sensitive information in the course of proceedings before courts or administrative The Fires Prevention Act is being amended tribunals where the provincial act applies. This in several areas. The Office of the Fire legislation will allow a Manitoba or a federal Commissioner will be given responsibility to cabinet minister or official to object to the provide incident management at all provincial, disclosure of certain types of information before regional and municipal emergencies of a a court, administrative tribunal, or similar body. significant nature where the local emergency Only information relating to the defence or response capabilities, and those of the sur­ security of Canada or Manitoba or its people or rounding mutual aid district cannot handle the the health of Manitobans or other Canadians can situation. Incident management means providing be objected to. the central co-ordination function of the incident November 20,2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 197

to ensure proper communication, safety and a allows the OFC to request an annual report from co-ordinated action plan. municipalities detailing exactly what emergency response services and capabilities a municipality It does not mean that the OFC assumes any intends to provide. This could be instrumental in of the roles of the current responding govern­ identifying any gaps between risks identified in ment agencies. For instance, the Department of those communities and the level of preparedness Environment would still provide its role but and response that the municipality is planning to would do so within the incident management provide. This will also help to form a basis for command system established by the OFC for any contingency planning that is required in that incident. The OFC will provide this role up order to assess these risks. to the point where MEMO declares a state of emergency, because at that point The Emergency Mr. Speaker, attacks on the World Trade Measures Act provisions would take precedence, Center and indeed an earlier attack on the United and decisions about whether the OFC will States government building in Oklahoma and remain as an incident commander will be the recent bioterrorism scares have recently raised decision of the minister. security concerns surrounding the potential misuse of certain fertilizers and the equipment The bill will also expand the scope of the used in the application of pesticides, specifically incidents that the OFC responds to. The current crop dusters. legislation limits the Fire Commissioner to responding to fire-related incidents only. The bill Amendments to the fertilizer and pesticides recognizes that the fire service responds to more act are designed to address these concerns in two in actual fact than just fires. They respond to all ways: No. 1, by decreasing the likelihood of varieties of emergencies. The legislation pro­ potentially harmful materials falling into the vides that the Fire Commissioner has the hands of criminals or individuals who might use authority to respond to all forms of emergency. these materials for purposes for which they were not intended, and, No. 2, by enabling govern­ It also gives the OFC the mandate to provide ment to monitor the flow of certain materials by training and co-ordination activities in the area providing the opportunity for further proactive of what is called critical incident stress manage­ steps to stem potential threats. ment. In any protracted critical incident, the primary resource is the first responder network. In order to decrease the likelihood of Critical incident stress management is the potentially harmful materials falling into the method in which the first responders who are wrong hands, a control products schedule will be affected by responding to incidents which stretch developed that will include the existing the physical and emotional endurance of people restricted pesticides list established by Health can receive counselling and debriefing. The aim Canada's Pest Management Review Agency and is to mitigate burnout of those responders so that fertilizers like ammonium nitrate. Further they can continue to provide the very important changes will place a positive obligation on the function that they do provide. vendor of controlled products or proscribed aerial- or ground-spraying equipment to ensure The OFC administers and co-ordinates a the integrity of the buyer. provincial network of qualified and trained CISM counsellors made up of peers and This means it will be an offence for anyone members of the mental health profession. They to provide proscribed aerial or ground-based have done this on their own accord because it spraying equipment or a controlled product to a was the right thing to do. This legislation now listed entity as defined by the Criminal Code of gives them the appropriate legislative framework Canada-those are two offences-and three, upon which to base these operations. provide proscribed aerial or ground-based spraying equipment or a controlled product to an Mr. Speaker, the bill also deals with reports individual they have reason to believe will use from municipalities regarding the level of the product for a purpose for which it was not service they are providing. This legislation intended. In partnership with the industry, we 198 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001

will introduce requirements for the secure there should be other levels of training mandated storage of proscribed aerial and ground-spraying in the province, perhaps on a site-specific basis. equipment and the disabling of them when not in use. These recommendations will be considered by the Government in putting together the We will require, Mr. Speaker, that missing regulations under the legislation. inventory of a controlled product be reported. Security will further be enhanced through Amendment to the governing act, Mr. monitoring of the sale and purchase of certain Speaker, would increase the fines if one is found aerial and ground-spraying equipment. Anyone guilty of an offence under the act. The regu­ selling or leasing proscribed aerial or ground­ lation-making powers of the act would be spraying equipment will be required to notify the amended to address the qualifications to be met minister at least I 0 days prior to transferring in the training for currently licensed security possession of the equipment. This will give the guards and new applicants. This is important as a Government an opportunity to double-check the clarification to ensure that there is power in the listed entities list to identify potential problems laws of Manitoba so that we can make the and to forward any concerns to law enforcement regulations that are deemed appropriate to move officials. ahead.

The act is also amended by this bill to Provisions will be made for the minister to specify that a criminal record check be included enter into agreements with other governments as a requirement for licensing of new applicants respecting the recognition of fertilizer and pesti­ and currently licensed individuals. This formal­ cide licences and the sharing of information to izes what is currently being done in practice, but ensure the safety or security of the public. it guards this practice against any potential challenge. We are confident, Mr. Speaker, these new measures will contribute to the continued safety Mr. Speaker, The Proceeds of Crime and well-being of all Manitobans. Registration Act is amended by this bill to allow registration in the Personal Property Registry of Consultations with the stakeholders in the restraint orders made under the Criminal Code security guard industry havt! been ongoing with related to property belonging to or controlled by regard to a standard of training for security suspected terrorists. It broadens the definition of guards. Agreement has apparently been reached restraint order to include orders relating to the that the training would be based on the Canadian seizure and forfeiture of property relating to General Standards Board 40-hour basic security terrorists, and it changes the name of the act. guard's training. This standard includes items such as legal authority, traffic control, bomb Mr. Speaker, The Public Health Act is also threats, access control, including personnel and amended. In view of the fact that it is necessary material, report writing, note taking, response to for provincial legislation to keep pace with the emergency situations, patrol procedures and changing needs and requirements of the other matters. province, its government and its citizens, the revtstons are being put forth for the A security industry standards advisory consideration of Manitobans. Current situations committee, I am pleased to announce, Mr. in New York and indeed throughout the world Speaker, is being establishe:d to discuss issues have, as we have said earlier, brought forward in surrounding the implementation of mandatory the minds of the public and this Government the training, including, in partkular, who pays for need for re-evaluation of our public health the training, the grandparenting of requirements, procedures. training facilities, and an independent examination and implementation timetable. A I wish to point out that Manitoba has further responsibility of the advisory committee, significant safeguards already in place to protect once that task is done, is to look to see whether the health of the public. However, it is important November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 199 that we restate this Government's commitment to quarantined to prevent the spread of disease public health and well-being in a manner that we already exists under the act and its regulations. believe will help to ease public concerns and To ensure the health of other Manitobans is provide clarification. The amendments we are protected, an emergency apprehension may be proposing build on emergency plans in place that ordered by a medical officer of health if an have been tried and tested many times individual who is believed to have a highly successfully to ensure that we have the communicable and virulent disease has failed to capability to protect the health of Manitobans. comply with the public health order respecting The amendments also build on our ability to the disease such as an order to be examined, respond to real threats to public health and the quarantined or isolated. Steps to have a justice ability to rule out any factors that do not pose a review, the apprehension order must be threat and extend our ability to react in an undertaken within 72 hours. Tools for gathering immediate and reasonable fashion where information, conducting inspections and investi­ immediate action is required. gating potentially dangerous substances will be available to handle serious health hazards. This First and foremost, I will emphatically state includes doing tests, looking at records and that the threat of bioterrorism in Manitoba seizing and destroying items. continues to be very low. However, we are taking the time to prepare and to plan. Part of Enhanced order-making powers with respect that is ensuring that we have the legislative to serious health hazards will provide public framework we need to protect Manitobans. health officials with additional tools to quickly take reasonable actions that address any actual or * (15:10) potential serious health hazards. Some of the Manitoba's security management legislation order-making powers under the act and regu­ provides additional tools for public health lations respecting serious health hazards and professionals to take quick and responsible dangerous diseases will also be available to actions where there is a serious threat to public health nurses and public health inspectors Manitobans from dangerous diseases or serious who need to take an immediate action before health hazards. they can contact a medical officer of health. These emergency orders will be effective for 72 Now more directly, I would like to speak to hours, unless extended by a medical officer of the proposed amendments to The Public Health health, and may be rescinded or changed by a Act, which focusses on two key areas. The first medical officer of health. is specific dangerous diseases identified from a list of possible biological terrorism agents. The The chief medical officer of health will be second is serious health hazards that present a empowered to change or rescind any order made serious and immediate threat to the health of by a public health official with respect to a Manitobans. I point out that the dangerous serious health hazard or a dangerous disease. disease provisions generally deal with people Also, where a threat to public health arises in who pose a risk to others, while serious health any area of the province where no medical hazards deal with any substances, gases, plants officer of health is available, the medical officer and other materials as well as a condition or of health can appoint a doctor as a medical process that poses a threat to people. Planned officer of health on a term basis. I bring to your and reasonable first steps and immediate actions attention that public health officials normally and reactions conserve to reduce public anxiety work through education, consultation and co­ by being able to quickly confirm when there is operative efforts. However, in an emergency, it no threat. is critical that the necessary steps to protect Manitobans from immediate and serious harm Rapid investigation and information can be taken quickly and directly as proposed in gathering can provide the public with factual these amendments. information while long waits or delays can fuel rumours and speculation. The ability to require The legislation is a reasonable and balanced individuals to be taken to hospital, isolated or approach to providing the powers needed to 200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20,2001 address serious threats and allowing for At the review period, the standing oversight and review by the courts. It is committee can report back to the Government important to note that th(!Se amendments make and to the Legislature on which pieces should be the existing legislation more compliant with the left in place and which may need to be scaled Charter. I recommend this legislation to the back or eliminated or otherwise changed, both Legislature, to Manitobans. I believe, Mr. with regard to whether the legislation goes far Speaker, that it is a responsible, prudent course enough or goes too far. If there is a need for all of action to ensure that we can protect of the provisions to remain after the one-year Manitobans. period has elapsed, I would suspect that the committee may well report back to the House The last act addressed in the bill is The Vital that the act should again be examined. That is Statistics Act. Several new offences are created, certainly something, Mr. Speaker, that would including providing false information on a have the full support of the Government. registration or to obtain a certificate, using or possessing false, fictitious or altered certificates Mr. Speaker, I look forward to the or other documents issue:d under the act and participation of the members and the public in using or possessing certificates or other this bill, and I recommend this bill to the House. documents issued under the act for any unlawful I look forward to the further debate and or improper purpose. committee hearings.

Mr. Speaker, we are also proposing Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): I move, significant increases to th1e maximum fines for seconded by the Member for Pembina (Mr. offences under the act. Current maximum fines Dyck), that debate be adjourned. range from $100 to $200. These will be increased to $10,000 and $50,000. We have also Motion agreed to. added imprisonment for up to a year as an option for offences such as making false application for THRONE SPEECH DEBATE registration, using or possessing false documents (Fourth Day of Debate) issued under the act, and using documents issued under the act for unlawful or improper purposes. Mr. Speaker: To resume debate on the amendment proposed by the honourable Leader Finally, we are proposing an amendment to of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray), allow regulations to be passed to permit informa­ standing in the name of the honourable Member tion from fraudulent applications or registrations for River Heights, who has 16 minutes to be shared with law enforcement agencies and remaining. other government investigative bodies. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. The bill contains a mandatory review clause Speaker, I want to focus the remaining 16 which will require that be�ore February 2003, if minutes of my talk on the issues of quality and this is enacted before December 6, each minister performance in the health care system. The responsible for an act amended by the omnibus Throne Speech lacked what was needed in an act must report on the effectiveness of the emphasis on quality and performance in health amendments and the cost to Government. We care. The result of the Minister of Health (Mr. currently prefer this to a blanket sunset clause as Chomiak) and the Premier's (Mr. Doer) lack of the requirement for a review forces an all-party attention to these areas is creating an unhealthy public examination within a year of the whole and in some areas a poisonous environment in bill coming into force. the health care system.

Mr. Speaker, it does not appear, certainly at Mr . Conrad Santos, Deputy Sp eaker, in the first blush, to be reasonable, for example, to Chair sunset the provision for the mandatory training of security guards. I trust that there will be Why is this so important? Let me mention a further consideration of this aspect of the bill. national study which looked at why nurses leave 201 November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

their home province or leave Canada. One of the Chomiak) can use personal preferences, most important reasons for moving away was the personality conflicts and such as the basis for his environment within the health care system. If the decision making. health care system is a good place to work and health care professionals feel they can make a * (15:20) contribution and deliver high quality health care, then health care professionals are much more If we are going to have a health care system likely to stay and work under these conditions. If in Manitoba which operates well, we must health care professionals feel they are unable to choose high quality and high performance as our deliver high quality health care, they become standards. The minister must support those dissatisfied and are much more likely to leave. health care workers who deliver a high level of excellence in performance, and high standards in It is natural for people to want to do a good the outcomes they achieve for patients, for our job and to feel they are in an environment where citizens of Manitoba. To do otherwise is to be they can do a good job. This is tremendously mired in the morass of mediocrity, low-quality important. anecdotal experience, and personality prefer­ ences and conflicts. Let me give you an example. One of the first issues that I spoke out on after I became Leader As one who has worked in the health care of the Liberal Party was a situation with plastic system for many years, I remember working and orthopedic surgery at the Misericordia under a department chairman who understood Hospital. In orthopedic surgery, there had been the breadth and depth of personalities which are an excellent team built up. They had built up the often found in the health care system. He ability to perform high quality orthopedic care of understood that some of the health care workers a very high standard. But the government of the who deliver the very best in terms of quality of day decided that they were going to disband this care are on occasion individuals who have team and spread them around. They were going difficult personalities, sometimes very demand­ to break up and destroy what had become a very ing personalities, because they seek to achieve high quality team. very high standards, recognizing the unique strength of individuals. Supporting those In plastic surgery, a critical mass of plastic strengths is vital to the delivery of good care. surgeons was developing at Misericordia Being able to deal with personality preferences Hospital, and it was on the way to becoming a and conflicts in ways that supports the overall national centre for training as well as for goal of high quality and high performance is excellence in plastic surgery. For a whole variety vital. of reasons this was a very positive development, yet the government of the day decided to break I now want the minister to consider how he this up, to spread the surgeons around and is presently running the health care system in disband the group of plastic surgeons at Manitoba, and the extent to which there is a Misericordia Hospital. They were sending poisonous atmosphere because he and his exactly the wrong signal. They were saying we government have failed to set the goals clearly, do not careabout quality, about excellent care. either in the Throne Speech or elsewhere.

Now, unfortunately, we have a minister once I will, by way of example, mention the again who apparently appears to be duplicating instance of a cardiac surgeon who is an above­ the failings of the previous government and average performer. This is a cardiac surgeon undermining the development of excellence and who, in more than 350 operations for an isolated high quality in our health care system. The coronary artery bypass, had only three patients minister has a choice. He can run a health care who died, a mortality rate for this procedure of system where decisions are made on the basis of 0.85 percent. This is significantly better than the quality and performance and the bottom line is average of the other cardiac surgeons in achieving high quality and high performance, or, Manitoba, whose mortality rate for the same alternatively, the Minister of Health (Mr. period was 2.71 percent. I should add that the 202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20,200 I

rate of 2. 7I percent mortality is a good one. It is reached because of many years of practice and a indeed slightly better than the society of thoracic very high level of skill. surgeons' huge database, which shows a North American average of about 3 percent. Unfortunately, because of what appears to be isolated instance, personality conflicts and Some might ask whether the results perhaps even personal vendettas. This surgeon is achieved by this surgeon are as good as they are no longer allowed to operate in Manitoba. because the patients were at lower risk. Indeed this is clearly not the case, for a risk-adjusted The health care system operated by our analysis shows that for the patients who were present Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) is operated on by this surgeon, the expected chasing away the very best of the surgeons in mortality, based on the society of thoracic Manitoba. I say to the minister that so long as surgeons' database, would be about 2.35 percent. personality conflicts, intensive anecdotal reviews The observed results for this surgeon at 0.85 of individual patients are the dominant basis of percent are significantly better than the North his decision making, so long the minister will American average. continue to have a poorly performing health care system where health care professionals are This surgeon has been saving Manitobans' unhappy. lives. Not only has he bee:n improving the lives of large numbers of Maniitobans with coronary As any health care professional will artery disease, but his technical excellence has acknowledge, for reasons which one cannot fully led to the saving of five more lives in the control problems may arise in the care of an average of cardiac surgeons in all of North individual patient. While the circumstances of America. Based on the number of operations, care for individual patients are always important, 352, one would have expected that eight people it is vital to be able to step back and look at the would have died, but only three did. This overall record of a health care professional. surgeon, through his skilll as a surgeon, has Those who are outstanding performers like this saved the lives of five more Manitobans than cardiac surgeon need to be supported through almost any other surgeon in North America. occasional problematic times. To undermine the overall performance of health care in Manitoba I want to add another dimension to these by moving away from measuring and numbers. Excellent results may be achieved by a considering the overall record and performance surgeon for a variety of reasons. High technical of health care professionals is a big mistake. ability may be expressed in an ability to work well and quickly. This is indeed the case with I would refer the minister to a book called this surgeon. The average length of time of his To Err is Human: Building a Safer He alth Care coronary artery bypass patients who were on System. I would refer the minister to his own coronary pulmonary bypass was 56 minutes, report or the report delivered to his Government compared to an average of I 03 minutes for all on cardiac surgery, pediatric cardiac surgery in other surgeons in Manitoba.. High quality can be, this case. I would quote from the book To Err is and in this instance is, associated with doing Human the following: Building safety into things more quickly. This, Mr. Minister of processes of care is a more effective way to Health, is important when one considers not only reduce errors than blaming individuals. Some performance, but cost. Think what a saving in would argue it is the only way to improve health care dollars and improvement in quality and, I would add, performance. efficiency can be achieved by delivering care more effectively and in a shorter period of time. The focus must shift from blaming individuals for past errors to a focus on I would add that some who have watched preventing future errors by designing safety into this surgeon work remark that he does not seem a system and, I would add, by emphasizing to work quickly. He is like Wayne Gretzky; it performance and designing measures into the seems deceptively easy. His high quality is system which will improve performance. November 20,2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 203

The minister can continue on his present Hon. (Minister of path of decision making based on personal Transportation and Government Services): preferences and personality conflicts or he can Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think it is only take the higher road in evaluating performance. appropriate that you are in the Chair, because It is imperative that the minister start to change having had the opportunity to speak on a number his ways, that the minister take the higher road, of Throne Speeches in the past. Your having had or otherwise he will undermine those who are the same opportunity, I must admit that I have working so hard to deliver the very best care been somewhat surprised that I have been possible for Manitoba citizens. The emphasis on granted the privilege that very few Manitobans quality of care and quality of performance must have of being able to speak now in throne be the gold standard. This is an important speeches. In fact it was this past Saturday that message. both you and I had the 20th anniversary of our election. It is also appropriate that the Member But, Mr. Deputy Speaker, this message for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) is here because I do not needs to be applied in education as well as in know if I would want to go quite as far as the health care. I have in the last week called for the Member for Lakeside has in terms of longevity, resignation of the Minister of Education (Mr. but he certainly is a mentor to anyone who seeks Caldwell) because he failed to put in place as public office and sees public service as quickly as he should have done a solid basis for something that one makes, certainly in his case, decision making in the area of adult education. a life commitment to. I may still get paroled before I reach the life stage. The minister arrived in office with what he * (15:30) acknowledges is an absurd system. The minister, in spite of the fact that he had an absurd system I want to say, in all seriousness, when I was with no fiscal or program accountability, first elected it was a dream come true. I think persisted in using that system for almost two pretty well every day since that time, and now years after he was first made a minister. The that I have been fortunate enough to play even a results during this period were decisions made new role in terms of my responsibilities as part on the basis of personal preferences, of this Government,that dream continues. I have personalities and other factors rather than on no regrets, and I look forward, as we enter excellence of education. another session of the Legislature, to really what this is all about. It is about public service, it is None of us deny that there are tough about debate, and it is about making sure that we questions and issues to deal with here, but all work for a better society. setting the framework and establishing clear goals and objectives are fundamental ministerial I remember my original commitment, why I roles. The Minister of Education clearly failed, ran. I actually commented this weekend at an and he needs now to be replaced. event. Ed Schreyer was one of the speakers. I actually credited two premiers for my seeking Today I speak out in my comments on the elected office. One was Ed Schreyer. I got Speech from the Throne because I see a involved in the NDP because of him. The other government and another minister having very one was . I ran in 1981 because I serious difficulties in his portfolio. That is the wanted to make sure that we ended that running of the health care system. Once again it government's tenure rather quickly because of is because there is a failure to set clear policies what was happening in my own community. I and standards. say that because I try to remind everybody that one of the key elements that we are doing, I For a government which was elected only believe-and I know the Member for Lakeside two years ago with so much promise to achieve still has a picture of Sterling Lyon up on his wall good things for Manitobans it is a great and worships at Sterling's side every day. disappointment to have to speak today of such disillusionment with the actions of the NDP In all seriousness, one of the things I really government in Manitoba. wanted to speak on as I make my comments in 204 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 200 1

this Throne Speech is the importance of public In the Second World War, Japanese Canadians debate and discussion, be:cause if there is one and Italian Canadians were interned because of concern I have about what is happening, not just the concern that there was somehow a threat. here in Manitoba but intemationally as well, it is the degree to which we depoliticize politics. We An Honourable Member: And German see declining turnouts in elections, the exception Canadians. being in the Manitoba provincial election where there was actually an increase. Mr. Ashton: And German Canadians indeed, the member from Lakeside points out, and, you I have seen, even in the United Kingdom, know, we have to be I think aware that in war the originator of the parliamentary system, only there is the old maxim that the first casualty of a 59% turnout in the last election. Regardless of war is truth, and indeed that may be the case, but who won supports in politics, I think the clear the second historically has been trust and message to people, particularly to young people, tolerance. I want to say on the record, repeat because I know that is where one often finds what I said a number of days ago in debate in some frustration or concern about the relevance this House on a resolution brought forward of politics-the important thing to do is to remind related to September II, the one I know in my people of what the political process is all about, own constituency of the case of a family that not to take it for granted, artd that there are many was visited by the RCMP because their brother people throughout this world who do not have had moved to Toronto, her brother. We are the opportunities we have, not only to vote in talking about one of my daughter's best friend's elections but also to speak out freely in between mother. Why, why would they ask about his those elections to state their views without fear whereabouts? of retribution. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the family, they I want to start by saying that, because as we are Canadian but they are of Pakistani back­ deal with the very difficult circumstances post ground, and there is no doubt in their mind why September II, I think it is, very important that they were asked that question. The school, in we reinforce that. As we speak today, for fact, which initiated this matter I believe has example, the federal government, I believe, is apologized. I have raised this and will continue announcing some chang,es to its security to raise this with the RCMP, but it shows you legislation. Certainly we have accepted the even now in the context of September 11 the challenge post September 11. We have brought kind of thing we are seeing. in our own security legislation. I have said, and I will say it again, I said this a few days ago. that I also mentioned recently that we have had one of the key elements I think we have to people in Winnipeg reporting that their taxi recognize post September II is to make driver is Osama bin Laden, the absurdity of taxi responsible decisions, to idt�ntify ways in which drivers wearing turbans, who are Sikhs, by the we can improve security for the public, but to be way, nothing to do with Osama bin Laden, but it very careful of moving down a path where we shows you the degree to which people out of fear will lose the very freedoms that our society sometimes can react in that sort of way. There is stands for. an irony, I have mentioned this, that the Sikhs I think were probably the last nationality to I can tell you that I am very concerned about actually conquer Afghanistan historically. some of the provisions in C-36 which I understand may be changed even today, but But, you know, it is not a question of Sikhs particularly those that might be used to target or Muslims. It is a question here of not targeting people because of their race,. their language, their anyone on the basis of their race, their language, religion, their political affiliation. We have had a their religion, their ethnocultural background or history of that. I remarked about this on the indeed their political beliefs, because in the weekend when I spoke on my 20th anniversary. Second World War I believe in addition to We have to remember that in Canada in the First cultural groups that were jailed, communists World War Ukrainian Canadians were interned. were as well. Regardless of one's view of 205 November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA communism, obviously, again, in a democratic Aboriginal population of any urban centre, society it raises real questions about the degree certainly one of the highest Aboriginal popu­ to which if you take that kind of action, you are lations, and that is something that I have seen violating the basic principles. develop over the years. It has been I think a great benefit in the community of Thompson, and the An Honourable Member: Ukrainians in the surrounding communities I represent, both the First World War. First Nations communities and the Northern Affairs communities, which once again add to Mr. Ashton: As the Member for Burrows (Mr. the very unique nature of the Thompson area. Martindale) references Ukrainians, I did indeed reference that, because we have to stand out, I I want to note the presence of people from believe, in this country and take responsible throughout Canada and throughout the world in measures on security. But when it comes to C- our community. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was 36, I hope the federal government will listen, really pleased to see my kids able to grow up in particularly to the concerns that have been a community-my son is still living in Thompson expressed by Canadians, especially by new in Grade 12-where you can experience Canadians, the concern that they will be targeted everything from Christmas, Ukrainian Christmas under some of the provisions, particularly the to Diwali and Ramadan, all in a rather small city 72-hour provisions that allow for detention by some standards internationally. I have often without any warrant, without suspicion. commented, the old saying is that it takes a village to raise a child. Well, actually, a small I say if we allow that to happen, if we want city is not bad either. So I have been very to make sure that terrorism succeeds, what we pleased with that. I have been very honoured to will do is not only act in fear on a daily basis in represent not only my home community, the terms of security issues, but we will erode our community that I have lived in since 1967, the system of democratic values and respect and community I went to high school in, but also tolerance, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We must never seven other communities. I wanted to put on the allow that to happen as Canadians, because that record as I begin the Throne Speech Debate how is where Canada stands out in the world. I much I appreciate the six opportunities I have believe we are unique in that way, and it is up to had to sit in this Legislature representing the us to send that very clear message. Thompson constituency.

I wanted to start on that point, Mr. Deputy * (15:40) Speaker, because it is important when we get into debate in this Legislature that we not You know, one of the advantages I think hesitate to speak out on broader issues. It is you have as you spend some time in politics is important to speak out on constituency-related you get to see some history. I have seen some matters, but without the ability to function in a history in here. I have seen enough of it to democratic society, really nothing else matters. recognize, and I remind people of this, that, you That is why I really wanted to make an appeal know, history is not something that is made by on the record for some calm and some sanity and other people, it is something that we are all part for that Canadian tradition of tolerance. of. We can choose to take a more active role. I think members of this Legislature do. People are But, you know, at the same time, I also involved in politics. People are involved in their would remark that one of the key things you community. Or we can seek to tune out of it. I have to do I think when you are elected in this mentioned that earlier, my concern that too Legislature is not to forget your roots. I never many people are tuning out of an important part want to forget my roots. My roots are in of our process here, the political process. Thompson. I am still a resident of Thompson after these years, you know, rooted in a I want to say, Mr. Deputy Speaker,one also community that I believe is a model community I think needs to have historical perspective, for Canada, where there is a great deal of because it is very easy in politics to-I think diversity. I believe we probably have the highest Harold Wilson said that a week is a long time in 206 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 200I

politics. Well, you know, I am seeing evidence So if you run through to the changeover in of how the Tories would liike us, a fe w short two September and October, barely even halfway years after they were defeated, after they were through the fiscal year, what was the expenditure soundly defeated by the pe:ople of Manitoba, you in that line item? Was it seven million? Was it know, somehow they would like us to fo rget eight, nine, ten? I mean, it was seventeen what they actually did or did not do in II years million, from six to seventeen. The fiscally and then have people belie:ve that somehow they responsible Conservatives oversaw a budget line would have answers to some of the challenges item that was nearly 300 percent higher than was we face as a province right now. projected.

Now, I must admit, I sat here the last several Now, I just want to repeat this, because, you days in Question Period and heard the criticisms know, there are actually a fe w new members of of the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell). I the Conservatives, even the leader, who, well, he just want to put this in context because, you was running the tours. I think he is sort of a know what, it was interesting to watch the backroom member of the previous group. But it fo rmer Minister of Finance sitting in his seat is interesting that they can get up and criticize rather sheepishly avoiding our responses to the the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) for root cause of the problem here. Now, what is the what? root cause of this whole issue they have been trying to create in Question Period? We had a Let us deal with what the Minister of government, the previous government, now, Education has dealt with. The Minister of these are the "fiscally responsible" Tories. I have Education basically came in, in the first budget, always been a fan of oxymorons. People do not changed the fo rmula, has referred this entire know what an oxymoron is. Right? It is sort of matter to the Auditor, tried to deal with the mess like Progressive Conservative, military intel­ that was created by the Conservatives. That line ligence. I remember Marty Dolin used to have a item now has been reduced. Yet we are still whole list of those he put on. providing the valuable service of adult education. You know, the Minister of Education An Honourable Member: Industrial park. referred it to the audit, and when the Auditor identified the situation in Agassiz, responded to Mr. Ashton: As with CSIS. Yes, actually I am that, indicated that mistaken procedures had reminded, it is like in charge of been fo llowed, you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, detection, you know, being a detective. But do did what a responsible Minister of Education you know what? We could apply the same thing should do, take the problem, deal with the to Tory fiscal management. It is an oxymoron. problem and, when there was an error made, Now, people may say, well, wait a sec, the took responsibility fo r that error. Have I heard a Tories, no, they were fiscally responsible. single member of the Opposition get up today or the last fe w days and say, well, yes, there were Well, let us take their last year. I mean, let problems? us just start working back lh.ere. We do not have to go back to ancient history here. We can go The fo rmer Minister of Finance led off back to I999, the fiscally responsible Tories. Question Period today waving his finger and fu ll Now, what happened with the adult education of sound and fu ry about what had happened in line of the Budget? What was it budgeted at? Six terms of adult education. Then the Premier (Mr. million dollars. Now, that is interesting. Six Doer) stood up and revealed the fact that in million dollars. A rather modest figure, but September the financial statements came out, governments have been known, this does and that Minister of Finance did not identify happen, you know, budget lines sometimes are even in September that there was a major cost overexpended in disasters, for example. You overrun. Two potential reasons why-there are know, if there is a disaster that occurs, obviously only two reasons why. One is he did not know, there can be an additional line item. So six and there is indication he said on the record he million dollars. Now, that was a budget that was did know. The second then is they covered it up. brought in in I999. We had an election in 1999. How embarrassing would it have been in an November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 207 election to indicate that you had a line item that accountability, these are just areas I know of was nearly 300 percent over budget? within my own area. How many other factors like that were behind this unprecedented panic Well, that is not all. What is interesting spending by the Conservatives going into the last about the Conservatives when it came to their election? last year in office-and like I said I am not going An Honourable Member: Hospital construe­ back to ancient history here. I am talking about ion. two years ago. I am talking about largely the same party. They may have a new Leader. He is Mr. Ashton: Hospital, everything. This is what part of that same old tradition. I think Don is always interesting because I can go back to Orchard actually has been running their renewal history. It is not the first time this has happened exercise, those of us who sat in the House when because, if you go back to the last time, and I Don Orchard was here. I have a lot of respect for mention Sterling Lyon by the way, the same Don Orchard, but if that is their idea of renewal, thing happened then. They had acute,protracted well, good luck to them. But what happened in restraint. That is what they talked about. In the their final six months of office was an final year going into the election,money was not unprecedented spending spree. You know what I an obj ect. That is the problem with the find interesting about it is now they try and get Conservatives. up and point fingers at us in terms of decisions we made fiscally over the last number of years. The Conservatives, what they do is they go through these periods of a fa mine,and then they But they were not just over in the adult go on this gorge feeding. Anybody who can talk education budget; they were over in pretty well about dieting will tell you, any expert on dieting everything. Justice they were over. They were will tell people that does not work. That is the over in health care dramatically. The Member problem people have. I say to members opposite for St. James (Ms. Korzeniowski) talks about that is why they lack so much credibility with casino expenditures. They were way over budget the people of Manitoba. For them to get up and on the expenditures that took place in that. They say anything about our financial management were not only overspent by the $11 million we when their record was that horrendous as identified in adult education; they were $350 recently as 1999 is an absolute joke. million over budget. Now, $350 million, this is in a six-month period. These were the Mr. Deputy Speaker,you may have noticed expenditures under their financial watch. I did not go back to other factors behind it. Whatever happened to MTS? Five years ago this ' Do you know what is interesting? They talk November it was sold off. Okay. What happened about financial accountability. Actually what is to the revenue from MTS? Guess what? interesting is virtually all of the members who asked questions today are people that were An Honourable Member: And you promised to fo rmer ministers in the previous government. Do buy it back. we really want to start looking at highways projects that were announced by the fo rmer Mr. Ashton: I am glad the Member fo r Lakeside Minister of Highways? They do not meet any (Mr. Enns) is vocal about the Manitoba known criteria of the highways department but Telephone System because they sold it at a just happened to be announced going into the ridiculously low price. We will see how many election. Highways expenditures seemed to be people cash in on their share options. We will accelerated in certain areas of the province going see about how many instant Tory millionaires into an election. will be made out of that despicable sale. I say to members opposite: What are they doing with the All of a sudden the freeze on VLTs in money? Did they invest it in the future of communities, First Nations communities in Manitoba? They spent it. They spent every last particular, all of a sudden in June and July and cent of it before they leftoffice in 1999. August, bang,all these VLTs that appear out of nowhere. If you start running through * (15:50) 208 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 200 I

So what happened is !the fiscally responsible to a decade. Now, the fo rmer Minister of Health, Tories overspent in 1999 over their budget. They I mean, I talked to the mayor, and he could have sold off MTS, and they spent it. Well, Mr. sworn that the Minister of Health was saying, Speaker, I want to talk albout the-[interjection] you know, yes, I mean, we are almost there, we Well, now we are into CFI. I will leave that to are almost there. the Member fo r Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) and the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enos). It is too I checked into it. Tories had a great way of bad that Sid Green was not around for this announcing things and never doing anything debate. with it, but what they had done is a fe asibility study and tried to sell it as somehow it was Mr. Deputy Speaker, that has been the going to be constructed. Thompson has no consistent hallmark of Conservatives fiscally personal care home. There is not a single over the last number of years. We have taken on personal care home bed in the entire region. the difficult challenges in health care, and we know there are challenges. We inherited a When we got into office, our health care system. I want to run through by the way what minister took the health care capital process and kind of mistakes the Tories made that led them made it so there is a three-step process, and if to some of the fiscal decisions they made. you are on the list, it really means something. I was never more proud to be part of this I fo und it interesting last year when the then Government, never more proud to be a New Highways critic suggested that we had not spent Democrat, when we were able to announce that our entire Highways capital budget. It was Thompson will get a personal care home. underspent by a million or $2 million, something in that range. Do you know why it was I say to the members opposite, shame, that interesting? When he was part of the government for more than a decade they took a list. They. in 1997, they put a Cabinet directive out, and played politics with the list, and they ended up they underspentthe Highways budget by just the with communities like Thompson not getting the lowest expenditure in the last 15 years, I think. kind of personal care home beds that they You would have to go back 15 years. Under require. That is another problem with that side, their government, in 1997, they basically froze though. I mentioned the personal care home the year-end capital, but tlbey did not just do it because what they did is they continuously play there. politics with these kind of expenditures.

Do you know what they did? Here is what I say that was shameful because, when it they did. They brought in the balanced budget comes to health care, when it comes to personal legislation. They then basically set up this shell care home beds in Thompson or the emergency game, what they did with MTS, where they ward which we just opened, by the way once could dump the money in. They were dumping again an initiative funded by the NDP money in like crazy from the expansion of government, the first, the most significant VL Ts, but it was not enough. So what they did is improvement to the Thompson General Hospital they froze the health care capital. They did not in more than two decades. put in place the number of personal care home beds that they needed. So what happened is You know what, it is a consistent pattern people got backed up into the hallway, and they because Brandon general hospital, they ended up with this mess, this political mess of consistently announced they were going to do hallway medicine. something, and then they reannounced it. Then they reannounced it again. Who is fixing it up? Now what we have done is we have Who is doing the work? It is the New identified the capital. Do you remember Democrats, represented quite uniquely fo r the Oakbank? How many timt:s did they announce first time actually in more than 20 years on both it? You know, it was interesting by the way, they sides of Brandon by New Democrats. It shows were good. They were masters. Thompson has you again that New Democrats in office are been trying to get a personal care home for close much better at delivering on their promises. November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 209

You know, they still do not get it. I hope Can you imagine today if we were buying power they do not get it for a while because, quite from the United States instead of developing frankly, as I see the last period of time, I do not Limestone? think they have learned from any of the lessons, you know, a complete lack of humility. Humility So what did we do, by the way? We built it. is not the easiest thing to have in politics, I must We did not listen to the Opposition. We listened say, Mr. Deputy Speaker. [interjection] Well, to the people of Manitoba. We built it for a the member says about whether I had humility. I billion dollars under budget, and we are now cantell you, after 1988, I had humility. Boy, did making significant returns fo r this Province, and I have humility. I look around the room here, we have frozen hydro rates. What more canyou well, the Member fo r Elmwood, we were pretty ask for? A publicly owned asset that gives you humble at the time. the lowest rates in North America, some of the lowest in the world, and produces that kind of Why, Mr. Deputy Speaker? We went from profitfo r the people of Manitoba. Government not only to Opposition but to third party. Do you know what we did from that But, you know, what was interesting, by the experience? We sat down, and we said: Where way is, I mean, I use this as a bit of a trick did we go wrong? We listened. It took us a question sometimes. I sort of ask people on the number of years to come back, but 11 years later hydro side, name me the hydro dams that the one of the reasons why we were elected to Conservatives have built in the last 32 years. It is government, I think, is because the people of a trick question. The Member for Lakeside will Manitoba said that they learned from the know this. The answer is none. None. Zero. experience and basically have applied that to what they stand for. I will tell you what they did. In '77 they shut It is interesting, by the way, because it is not down Limestone. We built it. In the '80s we were that we got a message that we were not doing ready to start up with Conawapa. They shut it things that have had huge benefits for down. What we are dealing with now is not Manitobans. I still remember at the time-and, Conawapa; what we are dealing with is well, I am glad the Member fo r Lakeside (Mr. Wuskwatim. We are dealing with Notigi. We are Enns) is here. Okay, this is a bit of ancient dealing with Birthday-Gull. We are working history but it is valid to today, right? Because with First Nations communities in the areas in an what is the best success story in Manitoba right innovative way. now in terms of public finance? It is . You know how they sold off MTS; they So once again history is repeating itself. The would have got Hydro next. What profit has Tories when in power did not have the vision to Manitoba Hydro made this year? $270 million. I develop our hydro-electric capability. The NDP look at the Minister of Hydro (Mr. Selinger). We in power, first with Schreyer, next with Pauley are talking about a significantbenefit. and now with the current Premier and the Doer Government is developing Manitoba Hydro Where does it come from? From the hydro again. Why? Because we believe in public development strategy of the Schreyer govern­ ownership and because we have a vision for the ment and the Pauley government. You know, future. here is an interesting debate. This shows how it is good to have a little bit of perspective here, So let us throw out some of these kinds of because there were two positions on Limestone. myths that the Tories keep trying to produce. I Well, there were three. The NDP said build it. am trying to add it up here. They want to The Opposition called it "lemonstone." You position themselves as fiscally responsible. know what the Tory position was for awhile? Yeah, right. After 1999, I do not even have to Here is a good one, by the way. They wanted to get back any further than that, they have no buy power from the United States. Actually, the credibility on fiscal issues. On public ownership, Member fo r Lakeside will remember this quite I mentioned before the MTS fiasco and the fact well. They wanted to buy power from the U.S. that Manitoba Hydro is working so well. 210 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 200 I

I mentioned about some of what has * (16:00) happened in terms of health care. I mentioned in terms of what has happfmed on the education What find interesting is Hydro side as well, by the way, because you know what equalization. This is one that is dear to my heart, they do. They attack the Minister of Education believe you me. I raised this on the Manitoba (Mr. Caldwell), and, you know, what was Hydro board, I raised this in the House. I was interesting, by the way, I want to see if they are critic. I remember asking Don Orchard, the then­ going to explain to the people of the Agassiz minister, if he would bring that in. You know, in School Division, because whether the proper 1993 he said: Yes, we will equalize Hydro rates. procedure was fo llowed the intent of the Now that is the first thing you get from Tories, Department of Education was to make sure that you get the promise. Okay, 1994, 1995 what students in that school division did not suffe r happened, '96, '97, '98, '99? They did not because of the financial problems in that school equalize Hydro rates. We get into government, it division. was part of our platform throughout the '90s. We said we were going to do it. We brought in the I look at our record on education and I look Legislation. at the investment in the short two years we have been in government in secondary and post­ You know what, they get up and it is like: secondary education in this province, and we Well, you should have referred this to the Public have corrected in two short years eleven years of Utilities Board. They could not just get up and decline under the Conservatives. I say to the say: We should have done it, good thing you are members opposite that I am proud to be part of a doing it. They had to find a wedge around it. It is government with a minist1�r like the Minister of sort of: You should have referred it to the Public Education who through actions, has served the Utilities Board. To do what? There are only two people of the province very well and has done a choices if we had done that. First of all, we lot in the space of two years to put in place our would not have been living up to the promise we vision of better public education and post­ had made, but the second thing is what would secondary education in thiis province during the have happened? The Public Utilities Board period when he was responsible for both. would have said either yes or no. So what was the intent of referring it to the Public Utilities Board? To get them to say no to this? I assume I say to members opposite it just does not that it was because they could not set up stop there. I really think that members opposite themselves and say no so they had to come up just do not quite get it, and I know the Minister with a ruse to get the Public Utilities Board to do of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) is behind me all it. the way here, and I apprec:iate that. I am behind him too. Actually, I am usually right behind him Now, you know what? This is a big issue in as well all the way. northern Manitoba. It always has been. You live in Gillam, you work at Hydro and you go to the But I want to say to members opposite the Hydro dam and you come home and you get next thing they try and do is they want to act like your Hydro bill. Up until this month, you paid there is somehow a voice for rural Manitoba. the highest rates in the province. Did you know This is a really good one. I just want to ask, I can that? You paid the highest rates. Thompson, ask this question, I have: asked this in rural somewhat lower. You know, the further you got Manitoba before: What did the Tories do in the away from the Hydro development, the less you 11 years they were in government for rural pay. Manitoba? What has the NDP done in the first two years in office? You ask them and the usual Now, I understand. You know, they answer is kind of like the Hydro thing. First they probably sat down and thought: Well, maybe we kind of, they think about it. You know what? can drive a wedge here between the city of They cannot tell you. They really cannot tell Winnipeg and other areas of the province. That you. Oh yes, there was a lot of lip service, but is probably what they did. They probably figured you know I really want to look at it. there are more people in the city of Winnipeg 211 November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

than outside in the rural and northern areas. And An Honourable Member: Now we are going to besides, if you were a fly on the wall in the Tory toll roads. caucus, they are probably saying: We have got so much credibility; they believe us on rural Mr. Ashton: Toll roads. Oh, we could get into issues; it does not matter whether we do their views. This is the same with farm, in terms anything, we just say rural Manitoba, rural of agriculturally, we have put more money into Manitoba, and they believe us. I am just trying to assistance in terms of farmers, negotiating with give a dramatization here of the Tory discussion. the federal government, than the Tories did in their period in office.

But you know what? It was the NDP It is funny, by the way, because I have had government that promised it in the election, that discussions with some people on the farm side brought it in, that has put it into legislation. As about this because what the Tories do, by the of this month, for the first time in Manitoba way, is that they do not want you to see what history, it does not matter where you stay in the their budget actually said. They do not want to province, where you live in this province, you be judged on what they did. They want to be pay the same for electricity. I am proud of that, judged by the rather inflated rhetoric of the and I am proud of that NDP legacy for rural Agriculture critic because, if they are judged Manitoba and northern Manitoba. based on the rhetoric, they can always go higher and higher in terms of this. But the reality is, in I love other issues as well. I could talk in my government, match what they did and match own area with some great pleasure about areas what we have done in two short years. Our like-I know the Member for La Verendrye, the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) has Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Mr. delivered more for rural farmers than they did in Lemieux) talked about this. Highway 59, I could 11 years. Those are the facts. Read the budgets. run through some of the road issues we have They speak the truth. dealt with in the Interlake, the opening of the main street in Riverton, the main street in I could continue, and this is because the Winkler, throughout rural Manitoba, by the way, Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) is behind which has been very well received, very good me, and I am behind him, by the way, because project and something I went out personally to the other thing they did for 11 years is they announce. But 59 is probably the best example ignored drainage. They did not just ignore it, of how the Member for La Verendrye pointed they cut it. I have been all throughout rural out that the previous government had promised it Manitoba in my capacity as minister responsible three times. Three times. for EMO, disaster assistance, and it is pathetic to see the lack of maintenance of the provincial drains. I will put that on the record. It is pathetic Who has moved ahead on the 59 project? I to see that and to see as well that it makes a like being involved with this sort of thing, but difficult situation worse when you are dealing when I make an announcement as Minister of with some of the kind of situations we dealt Transportation, it is an announcement on behalf with, the excess moisture. I think it was actually of the entire government. I want to know that the the Agriculture critic who even admitted this most significant highway project in the province once that they did cut back on that budget. By is in southern Manitoba in La Verendrye, the way, the minister who represents not just showing once again that this Government is northern communities in the truest sense but also committed to rural Manitoba. in our agricultural areas knows from his constituents, a very vocal group of constituents I credit, by the way, the Member for La in the farming sector, Carrot River Valley-and I Verendrye, the Minister of Culture, Heritage and say it took a member from our caucus, the Tourism for doing in two short years what Minister of Conservation, for the first time not previous Tory MLAs could not do in I cannot only to stop the decline but to tum it around and even remember how many years they reinvest in maintenance of our drains. I want to represented that area. congratulate on the record our Minister of 212 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 200 1

Conservation fo r not giving lip service to rural I want to say I am proud to be part of this Manitoba but to giving real and consistent Government, and I want to finish on this. If I response to their concerns. was somewhat idealistic 20 years ago when I was first elected, I am even more idealistic today Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you may have because I have seen the difference you can noticed in our Throne Speech that there was make. This Government is making a difference. That is why I am proud to vote once again fo r reference to a northern development strategy and the Throne Speech brought in by the NDP our rural development strategy and reference to government,the future of this province. the many significant initiatives we have taken in the city of Winnipeg. That, I believe, is what Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): It is always marks us as diffe rent from the Conservatives. refreshing to hear from the Member fo r They will look fo r that divide and conquer. I Thompson (Mr. Ashton) who manages to put on think their strategy of politiics is sort of driven by the record a lot of statements that ring like they the British Empire in India, divide and conquer. speak the fa cts but in fact skirt them very They will talk about rural Manitoba, but then adeptly. He did raise something that I want to they will mess around on the hydro rates, but we address early on in my few comments. I hope believe that the way to tap the potential in this perhaps he will be here to listen to them in his province is to include all regions, not just rural, comments with respect to some of the issues that not just urban and not just northern. That is why we face with respect to the kind of legislation we have a strategy fo r all areas of the province. that this Government is introducing, the issue that faces all of us with respect to concern for We also believe, by th1� way, in an inclusive our security and remind him, take him on a little government that represents all ethnocultural history course about what a Premier and his groups in this province. I congratulate our party did to fe llow Manitobans with that regard. Minister responsible for Multiculturalism (Ms. * (16:10) Barrett) fo r reinstating the error to the MIC which was introduced in the 1980s by the NDP Mr. Deputy Speaker, simply put, all of the that is going to represent that. We believe in rhetoric that we just heard from the honourable equality for men and women, and I say to minister of highways, the fact of the matter is I members opposite we believe in equality am very proud, as he is proud, and that is part of generally because, when we have all million­ the system, of being part of a group and having plus Manitobans working together, we are a been privileged to be part of a government that much more powerful force in the world. left Manitoba in the enviable position after our stewardship of having the lowest unemployment in the land, having some of the highest growth I want to finish on thi:s because I said very rates in the land, fo r the first time in 30-35 years much the same thing 20 years ago. I am proud to bringing in balanced budgets, having made the be part of a party and a government that first payments on our long-term debt. represents all areas of this. province, all ethno­ cultural groups, that represents women, that speaks out in between el1�ctions, that acts on I applaud the present Minister of Finance behalf of all areas of the province. And I say to (Mr. Selinger), the present government, for members opposite: Get a little bit of humility continuing on that course. How long they will be here, maybe examine what you have been doing able to do so will remain to be seen, but that is the last number of years. Stop relying on lip the simple record, no matter how eloquently the service. Stop relying on the idea that somehow honourable Member fo r Thompson (Mr. Ashton) people are going to believe you even if you wishes to skate around those fu ndamental and never did it fo r 11 years because people are basic issues. That cannot be taken away from smarter nowadays. They do not believe that kind me, cannot be taken away from the party that I of thing. But take your time because I am quite represent. The people of Manitoba are indeed, in happy if you continue on with this less than this rela tively short-term life of this Govern­ humble approach. ment, beginning to recognizethat . November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 213

Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Throne Speech went wrong, somebody shot one, well, we would begins with and dedicates the first two or three blow up the planet. We all have read articles pages, not just the paragraph that the First about how we would maybe a few survive a Minister (Mr. Doer) alluded to the other day, to nuclearwinter of many decades. the serious issues facing us in this world as regards and as a result of September 11. That fear, that massive terrorist fe ar which Although I made a quiet commitment to myself, we learnedto accommodate ourselves to to some in fact, I may have even expressed in this extent has been lifted. President Bush Chamber, I would desist from the old cold unilaterally, drastically dropping down from warrior type speeches that I used to make in this 8000 to 1700 nuclear weapons fo llowed by Chamber and enjoyed making them in this President Putin's reaction-{interjection] That Chamber, but events have brought it forward does not matter. But he did it. But is that not a that I am going to break my own imposition cause fo r general rejoicing that the nuclear threat about that. So you will have to put up with a on this planet world is being dramatically little bit of history that involves this Chamber, decreased, or were the peace marchers simply involves the of Manitoba, spouting off anti-American slogans and not involves Premier Ed Schreyer, and shows how really concerned about the nuclear march? So I events of that cold war, fo r which we no longer say, in the pleasant surroundings of a chuck­ have to suffer under, did impact on all of us in a wagon dinner in Texas, these two leaders of the peculiar way. world have brought about a fundamental change.

Let me just simply say something. I want to This world is no longer threatened in that get this on the record very early. Regrettably, we way. No longer. We will be threatened by should be dancing in the streets, not just in individual acts of terrorism as we have experi­ Winnipeg, but throughout the world, at what has enced. We will be threatened by individual acts been accomplished last week by President Bush or a rogue nation perhaps getting their hands on and by President Putin. a nuclear weapon, but that is a whole lot different than having a thousand of them aimed Mr. Deputy Speaker, the biggest assembly at you and we aiming a thousand back and of Manitobans, Winnipeggers, marching in destroying the world. demonstration that I have ever witnessed, and I have witnessed a lot of them, was not when the There may be a horrific catastrophe socialists expropriated private insurers in the involving a community, a city but not the world great Autopac debate of 1969. It was not when as we lived under it fo r 40 years. There should farmers were outraged at poor prices some years be some acknowledgement somewhere in earlier. legislative chambers of that simple fact. I can recall being in this Chamber when Ronald No, by far the biggest demonstration that Reagan was elected. I remember we had the ban this city has ever witnessed-! am looking the bombers. The peace marchers had what they around, but I do not see enough gray hair here to called "a nuclear clock." They said on the eve of see that-were the all-too-common peace 1980, when Ronald Reagan was elected, the marches, the ban-the-bomb movement, the anti­ nuclear clock moved to four minutes to nuclear movement of the early '70s. Some of you midnight. Four minutes to Armageddon. That will have participated in them. I remember one was the rhetoric of the left. That was the rhetoric notable one. of the New Democrats. That was the rhetoric of the times. There was, of course, a legitimate reason fo r fe aring it. We, all of us, have lived for the better The truth of the matter is that Hollywood part of fo ur decades under that horrific public cowboy won the cold war. He won the cold war, policy that the superpowers had of mutual and we now have the president of that great destruction. They had thousands of warheads nation, the Soviet Union, Russia, practising three aimed at us and we had thousands of warheads or four days how to ride a horse so he can ride a aimed at them. The idea was that if something horse with President Bush on his Texas ranch. Is 214 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001

that not a wonderful chrun�e of attitude? Is that Legislature in agreeing that not fo r a minute, not not a wonderful cha�nge:? Instead of pointing fo r aJn hour, certainly not fo r 26 days should the nuclear weapons at each other, they are learning rights of Ma�nitoba�ns be suspended fo r what I how to ride horseback

Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am not a I put that on the record because I think this particular fan of Prime Minister Chretien. I am will come to haunt this Government, because as not a particular fan of the Liberal government. I President Bush has so often reminded us and am a Conservative and I am proud to express keeps on reminding us, this is not something that that, but as my colleague from Minnedosa is going to be with us for a short period of time. pointed out in the discussion and the debate, This is something that is going to be with us for even in that hot bed of partisan politics in the certainly the rest of the life of this Government. I good, old U.S.A., it is remarkable to all of us, perceive this to be an effort that we will be particularly in lieu of the presidential elections engaged in fo r the next decade, if not generation. that just passed, that left the Americans with a It is not easy to achieve victory in the kind of president with a large question mark over his warfare which is so new and so different from all head as to his legitimacy, the Florida vote count other hostile acts. and all that, how wonderful it was to see how American politicians put aside their partisanship So this issue of support and of resolve and and rallied to the cause of their country, and we of national will, it is not now, but it will become cannot do that in Canada. a bigger and bigger issue over the coming period of time, and the position that you took in this This provincial government, this Premier Legislature will be remembered. It will certainly (Mr. Doer), this Cabinet, and, by the way, many be my job to remind Manitobans on every 216 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 200 1

occasion I have. As I said, my first phone call I Point of Order got this morning at twenty to eight in the morning was from a constituent who was Mr. Eons: If the member permits I would be concerned about the actions of their Govern­ more than happy to tell him right now. ment, or better said, the lack of action by their present Government. Mr. Maloway: I think both of us will be around in this Legislature fo r some time to come. He I have dedicated a considerable amount of will have plenty of opportunities to give me a my allotted time in my comments to the Throne full explanation. I am sure it will take longer Speech on these issues because there really is so than the allotted time that I have got right now. little else to speak about in this Throne Speech. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I do not There is really so little to speak about in the think there is any point of order being raised. Throne Speech that I am bereft of anything worthwhile to say, to comment on. All I can tell *** you-[interjection] There is a deliberate attempt being made by members opposite to derail me Mr. Maloway: I wanted to make some from making my comments. What needs to be comments regarding the fa llout over the done and what is not happening, of course, is the September 11 terrorist attacks. I wanted to say restoration of confidence iin this province and in that the attacks on New York and Washington this country. That will only come with the have caused massive changes in our economy restoration of a Conservative government. Of and how we view security. Certainly the that I am sure. economy was starting to slide on a more or less worldwide basis fo r the last year. We sometimes Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I am very forget right now, but a year ago the American pleased to address the Speech from the Throne economy was in a slide. It was in a fairly major this year and the Conservative amendment to the slide from around September 1 certainly at the Speech from the Throne. Following the Member latest of last year, but this seems to have put the for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) and the Member for icing on the cake, so to speak, and really driven Lakeside (Mr. Enns) is always a very difficult home and driven the economy down very task, but I like listening to both of them. dramatically certainly in the last couple of months. * (16:30) While these terrorist attacks and hijackings The Member for Lakeside took us on this have occurred before even in North American, long history of the cold war. I know he loves to and I draw your attention to the Quebec National talk about the cold war. I remember the Member Assembly, where there were shootings there a for Lakeside as far back as 1971. He probably fe w years ago, Prince Edward Island. Certainly forgets, but he ran fo r leadership of the the FLQ were bombing places in the 1960s. Conservative Party at one time. He was on John These were regarded as sort of one-off events Harvard's very popular six o'clock news show and not really part of any global efforts. debating Sidney Spivak. I had the occasion as part of the studio audienc:e at that time to ask Security always improved in the aftermath both candidates what had happened to that $93 of these events but then slipped back into million that went missing during the CFI fiasco. mediocrity. I draw your attention to and I remember back a few years ago I was on an You know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it has been EgyptAir flight. They had air marshals and so on 30 years and I keep asking him because I sit so on the flight at that time. That was well known close to the member, I keep asking him to that as soon as there was a hijacking and a account for that $93 million, and, you know, in problem, the airport security was beefed up and 30 years he has never done it. He has no people were very aggressive and active. Then explanation what happened to that money. after a couple of weeks, after a couple of months November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 217

people tend to fo rget about what had happened basically told me the same thing, that therewere and we got back to our lax ways again. a couple of tests going on in Canada for electronic passports and that he thought within Terrorism has generally not been seen as three years we would be seeing such a system at happening here, meaning North America, but, as least being set up in this country. In order to do I pointed out, it certainly has happened before. that, you have to have card readers at your In 1970 El Al airlines, the Israeli national airline, locations, so what was happening in B.C. where had hij acking problems. As a matter of fact, for a they had a test was they would have a fast track while they were having problems attracting and a slow track. So people that were involved passengers, because they had their planes in the electronic passport would obviously go hijacked, but El Al revamped their security on through the fast track and those of us who do not their airlines and they have never had a problem have that system would go through the other since. So it makes sense that the world's airlines way. and the countries should be looking at what they successfully implemented to avoid the problem. At the end of the day, what is likely to I had the pleasure of flying El Al on one happen is that the public will be given a choice occasion. It was a three-hour process to get on initially, and you have a choice of waiting seven the plane, but I think that once we went through or eight hours to get across the border versus the security and so on. You have the fe eling you going right through with an electronic passport. I are in a fairly safe environment as a result of it. I think that you as a frequent traveller would be guess part of the new security measures that are willing to pay to do that. So I do not think we are being brought about are an attempt to get the going to see people being fo rced to do this. I industry back in shape, to allay people's fe ars think we are going to be given the option, and I and get them travelling again. think because of the backlogs, people are going to jump at the chance to involve themselves in So what we have seen is they have this. introduced locked cabin doors, locking the pilots away fr om the rest of the plane. They have Now, when we are dealing with electronic brought on air marshals. In fact, one U.S. airline passports, we are probably going to be looking at has armed pilots. I do not know how safe you biometrics. Biometrics simply involve fe el flying with armed pilots, but I think that fingerprints, thumb prints or iris scans. You can some of these developments have caused people put these thumb prints, these iris scans on smart more alarm. As a matter of fact, the recent air cards if you wish, or you can simply put them on crash. and there was another crash over Russia the Web, but the point is that you have to have a recently, all of these events I think cause people scanning device at the airport or at the Customs, to have some questions about the advisability of or wherever it is you are trying to cross. So, as a flying. way of matching up, because if you were to come up with a card, currently if you have a So, if past practice is fo llowed, systems then driver's licence with your picture on it, if you are should deteriorate over time, and I think that not the person whose picture it is, but it is a these events will drive an earlier implementation picture of you, you could make your way of electronic passports. I think that the electronic through. But if you are already registered passports were going to happen sooner or later through a biometric, through a thumb print or anyway. I know the Member for Interlake (Mr. through an iris scan and that is yours, then any Nevakshonoft) and I were in Washington a few impersonator coming through will be caught months back, and we had some meetings with automatically. some of the United States senators, the new senators, and some of the officials in I guess the beauty of this system is that this Washington. I do know that they did tell us there system does not sleep. I mean, people will falter were tests in place fo r electronic passports. over time. Their attention span is not unlimited, and so people who are working in the Customs, I do recall getting a call from an official of no matter-the Americans think that they can put the Canadian Passport Office around July 1 who them on the fe deral payroll and pay them twice 218 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001

the money and they are going to be twice as I draw your attention to Ontario where they alert. Well, that may well happen fo r a while, but have a smart card system in Ontario Health, and over time there will be a degradation of the they took me through all the stages last year and system and somebody will get through who showed me how they were going to bring it in. should not. So the advantage of a system like They told me that it was the NDP, the previous this, the electronic passports, is that the passports Bob Rae governmentthat, in fact, developed this do not sleep. They are on guard all the time, and smart card system, and they were really keen to so if your iris scan does not match up with what do it. As a matter of fact, I think they tested it I is in the computer already, then you will be believe in Fort Frances. I may be wrong. Dave stopped. may know, but the fact of the matter is the technology was not there at that time, just three So this is a system that is going to allow or fo ur years earlier. people to avoid the long lineups at the border, and, in fact, it is going to in a way be a victory Last year, they assured me that it had, and over the terrorists, because at the current time they were working with Canada's banking the terrorists win. If they can shut down our system. Canada's banking system has basically a commerce, if they can backlog our trucks at the six-year plan to bring in new types of tech­ border, if they can make it so uncomfortable and nology, and Ontario was working with it. One of inconvenient that you have to wait hours at the the reasons that they were bringing in the system border to get across, all because of a couple of is they said that they had 10 million people in thousand people, you are going to inconvenience Ontario, but they had 11 million health cards out millions of people and cost the economy untold there. They were going to test this year in some millions more. How you defeat these thousand border communities, Windsor perhaps-they gave people is, in fact, you use the technology to me two or three names anyway-where they were make it even more efficientthan it was before. going to do tests, because they thought they were going to prove that there were Americans * (16:40) coming up and having free operations. They I heard the other day that there is some plan were sure that that was a big issue, that there had the federal government has in place to tag been lots of cases where Canadians had been inventories right at the f1:tctory. So rather than giving their health cards or selling their health doing it at the border, they are going to develop cards to people across the line. a system now where if you have a plant and you are producing a product in Canada, they will put In any event, this smart card system or card whatever codes they are going to put on it right system that they had was designed to have I in the factory. So the product will come out of think up to six pieces of information. They were the factory, presumably the truck driver will going to start out with the drug interaction have an electronic passport, and we will see information, the drug information which we faster crossings thanwe ever saw before this all have here in Manitoba. It is a great thing to have. happened. That would be a victory over the They were going to have medical information, terrorists because, after all, they would not have and then they were going to build on at a later slowed the economy down; they would have date, driver's licences, when available, and actually sped it up. hunting and fishing licences, and voter infor­ mation and things like that. So that is where that I am sure there will be lots of problems was last year, but that is a very expensive getting these systems to work, and I am sure proposition. I believe it was $10 a person or $10 there are problems, will be problems with them a card to bring this system in. The reality is you with the systems breaking down. I am sure there do not really even need the card system in will be the possibility of making a mistake, but, today's environment. You can simply do what certainly, they are far superior systems to what New South Wales and Australia are doing. They we have been dealing with up to this point, and, announced in Davos, Switzerland, this spring, quite honestly, at this poinlt the technology really that, in fact, they were going to put their health has not been available. records on line. November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 219

So whether you are carrying it around in a it has been live since last September, it is really card or whether it is on line-which probably being used by car dealers at this point because it costs next to nothing-as long as you have some gives you the ability to check for liens on used sort of a PIN number that you can access it, then cars. If you have cars, boats, tractors or any kind that is probably the safest place to be. I mean, if of equipment, typically, if you are buying a car you are thinking about people trying to on a Saturday or in the evening, and that is when remember-well, I guess you are going to have to most people do, I believe, they cannot go down remember a number anyway, but just so you to the Woodsworth Building to check on liens, know that there are things going on in the and that is something you are supposedto do, so technology side in health care in other you can pull out your credit card and go in on jurisdictions, in all sorts of different areas, and your computer on-line and you cancheck out the this September 11 development is in many, liens and buy your car at that moment and feel many ways just a perfect launching pad for us to secure that whatever liens there are you now get some results and to drive this process know about. forward. I know that there have been references made to a similar type of system being tested That is a system that was so popular that now at the London airport, at Heathrow Airport, within three months they had met their three­ and a couple of other places. year projections for usage. So that is one of the good, the positives. I was just going to, while I I lost my notes that I made here, so I am am on that particular topic,tell you that they had really not clear where I am, but I am not going to made about, I think it was, 361 000 hits, I guess, worry about that because I know that I have lots. on that particular application. I can start almost anywhere here, and I have lots of material. I do want to talk about the Throne The other really good news story that the Speech and the Conservative amendment to the Government has to tell in the services on-line Throne Speech. In the Throne Speech, I noticed would be the student aid system. They went on­ the Government made reference to page 5. The line only January of this year. It is rather Government made mention of the range of shocking that 51 percent of all the student aid government services that were to be delivered applications are being completed on-line at this over the Internet and will be expanded as part of point, 51 percent, with none of the advertising the province's e-government initiative. that I thought they should do. You know, I thought they should, to borrow a bit from Maoist Now, it is a straightforward statement, but it thought here, send out all the MLAs to their is also fa irly vague considering that most of you, schools around graduation time in June and have and I do not say that we have all the techno­ the MLAs tell them about the program and try to phobes in Manitoba in this one Legislature, get the kids to fill out their applications on-line. Chamber, but I would say that we have a good number of them. As the representatives of the There are a lot of advantages for them to do people, I think it is only right that you know it. Number one, they do not have to wait three what currently is available on-line so that you weeks anymore. The waiting period is down to can access it yourself, but certainly tell your three days; No. 2, they do not have to drive in voters when they phone you, tell your from Lakeside. They do not have to drive in constituents when they phone in and ask you fo r from all parts of the country, Lorette and other help that you can give them some advice as to towns. They can fill out the applications not only what the Government has on-line at the current from Manitoba but anywhere in the world, and it moment and what the Government may be is done right away. putting on-line in the near future. Mr. Harry Schellenberg, Acting Sp eaker, in the I can tell you that one of the most popular Chair services, and I know when I go door to door I mention this to people, and most of them are So this was a really good application. The fairly happy and did not know it exists, is called projection, I believe, is for something like the Personal Property Registry. Currently, while 14 000 applications, and so we would be looking 220 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001 around 7000 just in the first year. This is a There is another service that is available system that the Government developed. It gets through the Government, Canada map sales us into a diffe rent issue now, but Saskatchewan where you can buy maps right across Canada. is doing its own. When you think about this, it is You can buy a series of maps, hunting maps and a national program. The minister was here, is fishing maps and so on. That is a service that has here, but I do not know that there are that many been working very well. It has been around now differences in the differ,ent provinces in this fo r about a year. program. I will cite you an example of health where quite possibly the Health ministers should Now, I hear you asking me why we are be getting together, and they should centrally in doing this. I distinctly heard a number of people Ottawa pay fo r and develop a health software ask me why we are developing these services. program fo r a hospital, develop it once and The Member fo r Lakeside (Mr. Enns) knows, simply use it right across the country. because he was paying attention, that part of it is to advantage people in the rural areas and the We are spending untold billions of dollars North. The people in the North and the rural developing software. It is great fo r the software areas have been getting the runaround fo r years developers, but they have got a piecemeal and years and years because they have to come approach. One hospital has got this, another into Winnipeg, drive into Winnipeg and spend hospital has got the other thing. If you are going half a day getting here, spend the rest of the day to have a consistent hospital program across the standing in line at a government office and not country, then have the fe deral government necessarily get satisfaction from one office, develop it once and us�: it right across the because they may have to go to two or three country. offices to get the same thing, when in fact they can be through a single-window concept sitting * (16:50) at home on a Sunday night filling out this application and get all the services they want at That is the same prindple I would suggest home at one time. The way new systems are here with the student aid too. I mean, why do we being developed through a single window is that have 10 governments developing a student aid when you apply fo r student aid, immediately it on-line program when supposedly it is the same links to other things involving student aid. So,for program.Now, you know, I may be wrong here. example, if you are applying fo r social There may be significant differences in how the assistance, as soon as you finish that process, the provinces apply it so that they will have to make next thing to come up would be day care, and changes, but the principle is there, that whatever then from day care would be something else. province is developing a program, they should automatically be required Ito check all the other By the way, this system is all borrowed from provinces the first thing they do. Singapore. Singapore is a world leader. They have developed a system known as the stages of In some cases it may be easier to change the life. So you break down government depart­ legislation to be in conformity with other ments. The public do not care whether Health provinces. You know, the government workers has one program. They do not even know which say, well, no, no, our legislation, because it has department. As a matter of fact, as MLAs one or two little differences between Saskatche­ oftentimes we are not really sure where we are wan, I mean, we cannot do it. We have to supposed to send somebody. develop our own program. So what you do is you perpetuate this silo thinking, the thinking Mr. DeputySp eaker in the Chair that somehow my little department is so important that it has got to develop its own I have sent somebody to the Minister of system. Family Services' department only to find out a couple weeks later that it belonged in the This is paid for by the taxpayers at the end Minister of Education's department. Under a of the day. As the Cons,ervatives are always single-window concept the ministers are saying, there is only one taxpayer. immaterial. It does not matter. You simply go in, November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 221 and if you are dealing with the Singapore How many times have you taken yourchild system, the stages of life, which, by the way, is down for swimming lessons and spent God being adopted slowly but surely throughout knows how much time standing in line waiting Canada, you would basically look at, say, a birth fo r a swimming lesson appointment and not of a child. You would do your registry and then getting the slot you want. You can now, in from there you would click to all of the other Airdrie, Alberta, and you should be able to in things that you need as basically a life event sort Winnipeg, hopefully fairly soon, be able to of approach. register yourself, your child in a swimming lesson simply doing it at home on the computer, So that is something that is sort of becoming paying by credit card, and getting the job done. a best practice. The advantage to the Govern­ ment, of course-well, the advantage to every­ Mr. Sp eaker in the Chair body is happier constituents, to begin with-and the taxpayer is a lower cost of doing business. I think it is entirely possible the next few years in the health care field that you will be I remember , and I remember able to register. I know that in Alberta there is other Tories talking about efficiency in Alberta Wellnet that are supposed to be regarded government. How many times the Member for as at the fo refront of health IT development in Lakeside heard it or made it in his speeches, this country. I understand that Saskatchewan and statements about downsizing the government, Manitoba are adopting some of their approaches. cutting the red tape, right? Did they ever I do know that there are, evidently, clinics in downsize anything? No. They end up with more Alberta that are paperless clinics or nearly red tape. No downsizing is done. This revo­ paperless clinics. They are connecting theclinics lution, the on-line revolution, has the ability and with the labs, they are connecting them with the power to do exactly what these people have been hospitals, so that when you do tests, the tests are talking about, is streamline the government, available right across the system, if you should downsize the government a bit, offe r the public need them. So you are not redoing tests. better services. Currently, the system is such that you do a test one day in St. Boniface Hospital and the next I had other examples of why this was a very day you are down at the general hospital doing good initiative. For example, in business uses or the same tests. They do not have the ability to business permits, I guess it is called, we have the communicate with one another. ability for tradesmen, trades people, who are installing, say, water tanks, as an example, to be So what the Alberta Wellnet is all about is able to do their permits on-line so that Monday connecting those hospitals, connecting with the morning, when they head off to the job to install clinics, connecting with the labs, connecting the water tank, they do not first have to go to the with the doctors' offices. That, while it will cost government and stand in line to get the permit. money, should at the end of the day pay big They have the permit already. It is paid on-line, dividends. For example, in some provinces, the done by credit card, and Monday morning they amount of money that the health department is are on their way to their firstjob. spending on IT is only in the neighbourhood of two percent, whereas in industries, in insurance The public does not necessarily just look at and so on, you have an average of, say, 10% the provincial government as a place to find spending on IT and the banks and insurance services. They look at all the governments. They industries. look at the city of Winnipeg. They look at the fe deral government. Oftentimes they are not So clearly, if we are ever going to deal with aware that the Member fo r Lac du Bonnet (Mr. the huge financial pressures that we have in Praznik) is not responsible fo r registering the health care, I personally think tha t a major dog. What we are finding is people want to go to commitment to IT programs and consistency in sites like Airdrie, Alberta, where they can go on­ those IT programs, fo llowing best methods, best line and register the dog on-line, where they can practices, is probably the way to go to somehow do student swimming lessons. keep the system afloat. At the rate we are going, 222 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 200 1

I can just see the health care budget just done at one time. Well, that is not quite here yet. gradually over time assuming more and more of It was supposed to be here, but we are still a fe w the total budget of th1;! Province. It cannot months away from finally finishing that. So, continue at the rate it is doing. technically, they can say, well, we are on-line with campsites. We are on-line with campsites if In addition, Governmenton-line can provide you mean going into the site, sending them an e­ not only the service to the public, but can mail and then they e-mail you back or they provide revenue to the Government. I am sure phone you back and they settle it, and they call that there are MLAs here who, if they thought that an on-line service. I do not call that an on­ about it, could come up with services that they line service yet until it is fu lly transactional and would agree should be put on-line if they were you pay with a credit card, and that is the end of interested in doing so. I had a list with me that I it; the fu ll fr ont end and the back end of the thought we could deal with, and I will get to that service. in a couple of minutes. A lot of provinces like New Brunswick or * (17:00) other provinces have a lot of front end services available to the public. At the end of the day, the For example, it is quite possible that the back end office stuff is all being done manually, HydroBond sales that we have here in Manitoba being done by hand, and that should be auto­ could be offered on-line, applications for mated, as well, to make it a fully integrated, a HydroBonds. That certainly would be an fully complete transactional service. That is interesting one. I know that it is done in one of really our goal. the states in the United States. I think it is Maryland, I believe, that offe rs state bonds, the Another principle that you should think ability to buy the state: bonds on-line. The about is whether or not you automate or you camping sites are more or less available on-line engineer. Now, I know the Member fo r Selkirk now. I say more or less because they are not (Mr. Dewar) is dying to know. I could hear him fu lly transactional. asking me to distinguish the difference between automating and re-engineering. Automating is There are a lot of examples in the world simply taking an existing function, not deter­ where a jurisdiction, for example, such as mining whether it is even a useful function-it Australia, the Prime Minister, and I say this both may be a totally useless function-but you take in the good sense and a bad sense, but the Prime the function and you automate it. But re­ Minister makes a statement in 1997 saying that engineering the whole process, the whole part of by the end of 200 I, all of our government a department or a whole department involves services will be on-line. In an effort to reach the deciding whether the process is even valuable in goal, they drove the programs ahead, and they the first place. are going to get all 700-pllus services on-line by the end of this year. They were at 500 earlier this What they found when they brought in the year. They said they were right on target, but Personal Property Registry, which was done in when you start asking them questions about what Consumer and Corporate Affairs, they basically is really on-line, you find that a lot of it is just took all the old processes and turned them simply brochure ware. It iis simply applications, upside down. They basically threw them out. and every time they put

here. I will try to do it from memory. I am sure may have to continue anotherday . But I want to the MLAs can think of some services that should talk about a program that is really a very be on-line right here in our Chamber. What excellent program. It is called Community about Hansard on-line? We print off Hansards Connections, and it is to deal with for those of every day and hand them out, kill thousands of you in the Chamber who say: well, all these trees. Here we have in the past opposition programs are very well and good but I do not members of various governments bringing dead have a computer. I want to tell you that now you birds in here and bringing trees. We had the do have a computer. In fact, there are 586 sites fo rmer Housing minister from Niakwa who was being developed jointly by the fe deral threatening to bring in a tree in here last year. government and the Province. In Manitoba 200 We kept asking him, where is the tree? So I am sites are in the city alone. These computers are trying to give the Opposition some fo dder here, currently being set up so that people who do not some ammunition, some inf ormation, some have access to a computer can simply go down questions that they could be asking. They should to sites in your constituencies and do these be up here asking, why do you not put Hansard services that I was telling you about, do them on-line and let the MLAs get it when they need on-line. In my constituency I have five sites at it? We do not need Hansard all of the time. We the moment. One at the Kelvin Community should get it only when we need it. Centre-

Now let us look at the annual reports. How Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's many annual reports do I see coming in here time has expired. every day? I mean, poor ministers' backs are breaking. The assistants have to carry these Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): It is my things down from their offices. I do not know pleasure to rise in the House today to put a few how many strained backs and accident claims we words on the record in regard to the Throne are going to get as a result of this. My point is, Speech that has been put forwafd by the seriously, Mr. Speaker, if you take Manitoba governing body of the province of Manitoba Hydro and you take Manitoba-well, we cannot today, and also to deal with the amendment that say Manitoba Telephone System anymore but our Leader so graciously put forward the other MPIC-1 ask you, what is the purpose fo r day in regard to the lack of vision and lack of developing a glossy annual report for Manitoba plan that this Government has in the province of Hydro? I could understand it if you are a private Manitoba. But first I would like to take an company, if you are Continental Airlines, or if opportunity to just re-welcome the new pages to you are Air Canada and you are going down the the Legislative Assembly, to thank our interns drain real fast, or Nortel. for the work that they have done since they came in-[interjection] Some sensitive members across Nortel has to respond to its shareholders, the way, I guess, Mr. Speaker. I would also like and there are shareholders in this Chamber. The to welcome the interns that are working with Member fo r Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) owns up to each of the parties in the House today, as well as owning a few shares ofNortel. I will tell you he the clerks and members of the floor that do the wants an annual report. That is fair ball, he is a daily work of keeping us in line and keeping the shareholder of that company. But why are we rules and operations of the House running producing very expensive annual reports when, smoothly as we begin this fall sitting. in fact, we could be putting them on-line, and those who need the reports simply can access *(17:10) them whenever they want. They can print them in their entirety if and when they want them, The Government tod ay-the reason we put and, in fact, yes, the Member fo r Assiniboia (Mr. forward such an amendment fo r lack of support Rondeau) said, and they will pay fo r their paper for this Throne Speech-some of them have as well. referred to it, perhaps, as a budget in a way that they may have perhaps called the first program Mr. Speaker, I have pages and pages of fo r economic analysis an audit in the province of notes here and my light is flashing. So maybe I Manitoba. So I want to clarify that this third 224 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001

Throne Speech that was delivered by the and particular departments around the province Lieutenant-Governor the other day on behalf of of Manitoba. I will, certainly, move into those. the Government of Manitoba will be dishearten­ ing to many Manitobans because, of course, it First of all, while I am on the issue of the has a very nebulous approach to direction in tragedy of September 11, I want to give this Manitoba. It has nothing very clear in regard to House some clear direction in regard to some of the processes that this Government needed to the events that took place in my own life on that deal with, particularly in these uncertain times particular day. We in Manitoba may fe el that we that we are faced with, not just as a result of the were somewhat removed fr om that particular September II incidents--tremendous tragedy I incident when we first saw it being out here in should say and call it more than an incident. the middle of a continental region of North That is very mistaken of me. This is a major American and Manitoba as we are, but we have tragedy in our world e:vents of any of our all come to very quickly acknowledge that it lifetimes, going back into even the Second affected every one of our lives in many more World War. ways than we can count.

Of course, first of all, when we heard the This attempt that the NDP has made to deal reports of a plane hitting the World Trade with security in Manitoba. as well as the buildings, perhaps I visualized a small Cessna financial recession that we are already in, in the aircraft hitting a wall and may relate it to more province of Manitoba. leaves Manitobans some­ like a disturbance, an accident, from a stray what disheartened in regard to a clear direction plane, as many have horrifyingly seen the that may be needed at this time in the province. developments. It certainly was way more than that. The first ramifications of it were in my The number of issw�s I have had people local community. I went to a major business in speak to me since the Throne Speech, they were the constituency. There was a lot of marketing of hoping, and begging practically, fo r some more their product, Mr. Speaker, at that particular clear direction in regard to the mechanism and time. Just as I walked into the offices, all of their way that the Government would handle some of computers had gone down because, of course, a these issues. They hoped that they would be second crash had taken place; trading had been more fo rthcoming and fo rthright in regard to the halted. They do a lot of marketing and hedging financial affairs of the province and, perhaps, to of their product on the currency markets and the fact that we were facing a recession prior to farm input side of their business on a daily September 1I, a little bit of a downturn in the business, and they watch those markets overall North American economy, particularly religiously in regard to the competitive nature of Canada. the industry that they were in. It certainly brought home very clearly how this was going to impact all of us in much more of a way than we We hope that Manitoba continues to move might have thought. along well. Of course, the NDP has inherited low unemployment rates in the province of I drove on back to my home in the Manitoba, and we hope that those continue-that constituency, and was speaking with some of the is for sure-and that all Manitobans who want to persons who I work with-who work with us on work continue to work in this province and have our operation. They indicated to me that this had that opportunity to do so. happened, as well. I had not seen any television reports of it yet, but there was a major indication A Throne Speech, my view, should have immediately of what happened. The phone rang, laid out some of the plan and vision for where a and we had an opportunity to have a brother who government would wish to go. I am going to, was flying home from China, and was one of the this afternoon in the House, provide a few first planes to land in Vancouver after that examples of where I think they have missed the horrifying event on September 11. It makes you boat, if you will, in regard to some of the items believe or understand very clearly how this that they needed to look at in certain portfolios impacts our individual lives. 225 November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA

I knew he had been over there on a bit of a thisvery city a week ago in regard to the farmers trade mission with their company, but was coming together in the agricultural industry at unaware of the fact that they would be returning the Fort Garry Hotel to deal with an opportunity at that particular date. Whereupon my daughter that was bringing industry players together in phoned, working with a company in Calgary in agriculture on the Northern Plains Producers the Internet industry, and the state that she was fo rum, that I know the Minister of Agriculture looking after was Pennsylvania. So these phone (Ms. Wowchuk) was at; as well as had the calls fo llowed about 10 minutes apart, clearly opportunity of speaking with the Deputy Premier drove home the seriousness of the situation. of Saskatchewan, as well, Mr. Serby, the Agriculture minister there. Those kinds of I began to, of course, then wonder where my opportunities are where we develop closer bonds son was, because he is, of course, a pilot in and more trade with our neighbours. We have Thunder Bay, Ontario, and upon making a phone missed that opportunity of sending a clear signal, call fo und that he was safe. His family was fine. and I think it is unfortunate. But I think this was the reaction of all North Americans on that particular timeframe of fo ur Mr. Speaker, last week I had the opportunity or five hours that took place on that morning on to tour my rural constituency at the invitation of September 11. the Lieutenant-Governor, to be at some of the communities that he was touring in southwest So that is why, Mr. Speaker, our party put Manitoba last week. At one of those occasions in fo rth an amendment here, or a resolution rather, speaking to some students, the Lieutenant­ to deal with security issues and support fo r our Governor, His Honour Peter Liba, indicated that American neighbours in regard to the efforts that his role is not to be the Government or to govern they are doing, along with those of the British in Manitoba, but it is very clearly to make sure and other countries around the world. It is very that there is actually a governing body in this clear that at this time we must come together, to province. He outlined how very clearthe type of work together, in regard to bringing an end to democracy that we have in this country operates. the terrorism that plagues our earth at this present time; plagues the world. I would like to offer my comments in regard to the fact that while there are many other ruling Our efforts in that area should have been bodies in the world and so many other recognized, and we had hoped would be opportunities to have people governed in other recognized. We know that everyone supports the means around the world. I would certainly put efforts that are going on in Manitoba today, of my name on the line for saying that the kind of what is going on in regard to reducing terrorism democracy that we have, the British fo rm of around the world. It would have been a very government here that we deal with in the House great opportunity fo r this Legislature to have here and in Canada, is certainly one of the best individually stood up and supported a resolution anywhere in the world and needs to be brought that we could have all agreed on that was fo rward perhaps with a little more vigour fr om brought before this House in an effort to show ourselves at times and defended by ourselves that Manitoba cares in regard to our American quite often in a much more vigorous manner neighbours. than what we do. Perhaps we should be a little more proud visually and vocally than we have I know we have had some trade irritants been at times over the way we deal with the with them fr om time to time, and of course we concerns and issues of citizens within our are in the middle of a softwood lumber one now, country. but they are, of course, one of our major trading partners taking over a billion dollars a day on * (17:20) trade between our country and theirs. So, as in most relationships, there are some difficult While I am dealing with that, Mr. Speaker, I times. But, on this particular occasion, it is a would like to also indicate that you know the great opportunity for us to have shown support Government has brought forth a security bill that fo r our neighbours to the south, as was done in has received second reading in the House today 226 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001

and, while we know that the security and the Manitoba today, of course, is the way they deal concerns are there, I would like to also just with issues of rural development and agricultural reiterate that there will be some discussion and rural issues in the province of Manitoba. Of debate on this obviously in the House. course, I heard the member from Thompson waxing eloquently about all of the fine things One of the areas of concern in that whole that the NDP, that he thought they had done for process was The Pesticides and Fertilizers the province of Manitoba's farmers. It certainly Control Act and some of the sections in there of must be on a different page than the ones that concern, some of the equi pment dealers in the talked to me or the issues that I have seen, but I rural part of Manitoba and certainly I have would like to say that until there was a third received a few calls from farmers as well on this. Throne Speech come fo rward from this Government, we had never heard anything about There are some concerns in regard to what rural development other than some concerns will happen with aerial and ground-based about water issues brought on by Walkerton and spraying equipment. I would urge the minister to a number of other issues. make sure, as we look at the kinds of security situations that are need�:d in the province of While I have had the opportunity to be a Manitoba, that we do not wherever possible put member of this House fo r just over two years extra costs on the primary producer in the now, I believe that it is because our leader made country in regard to a situation that is already a clear choice and a clear decision fo r the somewhat a concern economically in some of direction of Manitoba when he indicated to the areas that we are faced with today. This area Manitobans that our Government coming back of aerial and ground-based spraying equipment, in to fo rm the next government in this province there is a time restriction in regard to being able wiii have a minister responsible fo r rural to transfer possession of that equipment. development. Normally those transactions would just be a deal between two parties and they are over. We I am quite proud that he has given me the would hope that that part of the situation of the opportunity to be rural development critic in the bill that is coming fo rward is dealt with and is province of Manitoba. This is not to take away not an extra cost, does not delay the opportunity from cri tic responsibilities in other areas as we for that �quipment to get out in the field, Mr. have also got an urban relations critic in the 'Speaker, as well. member from River East as well, and I am certainly going to enjoy working with her as we I think also it is a concern in regard to what move through the rest of the session here in the Government means by secure storage of Manitoba as well, before we get to the next these types of equipment and the ability to election and after, but it is an opportunity fo r the disable them when not in use. It is pretty tough Government to have done much more than what to say that a ground sprayer at least is going to they have in regard to commitments in areas of be creating any kind of problem because it is not watershed management and drainage and the going anywhere. Does this mean we have to lock number of areas of environmental issues and them in sheds or put them up on blocks, that sort natural resources, Mr. Speaker. of thing or is it just simply locking the door and being able to make sure that they are not being used in a daily manner? I would like to say, as has been said in the House in Question Period and other times, that This is just one of the small concerns that you know in the Throne Speech, perhaps can arise, and I am sure we wiii have an mosquitoes got a greater play on the heightened opportunity to discuss those further as we get awareness from the Government than what into the discussion on that biii as it comes before agriculture did. I have a grave concern as a farm the House. member and a rural development person in the province of Manitoba. I think we need to have Mr. Speaker, one of the things that separates another serious look at this Government's our opposition party from the Government of priorities in regard to these areas. November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 227

I will give you a couple of examples, Mr. Northern and Aboriginal Affairs. I have no Speaker, of where there is no vision and no plan problem with how it is delivered, but it is in this province. another program that was taken and spread out into another region of Manitoba. Once again, I One of them, of course, is in the area of have no bone to pick, if you will, with the North, what they have done with the Grow Bonds that is for sure, because there are development program. They have taken a very sound program problems there as well as there are in rural areas in Manitobathat had dollars put forward to it fo r of Manitoba as well as the core areas of development of small rural businesses. Some of Winnipeg. But this is a situation that, once again, them did not work. There were concerns with a there are no new dollars put into this program for few of them, but, by golly, there was an further development in that particular region of opportunity for individuals to come together to Manitoba, being the North. We would like to see put teams of people with some financial more development, and everyone working in resources in their local communities and be those areas, but these are the kinds of knee-jerk supported by government. Without the govern­ program reactions that we think need some more ment going out and saying we are going to put time for more greater development, so that there whole bunch of money into this and you can do is a commitment, when you make these changes­ it this way, top down sort of attitude. It was an be a commitment to the kinds of development opportunity for rural developers and people with opportunities that might exist in those particular some vision to come together in their local regions of Manitoba. communities, and decide on what they needed for development to keep a fe w people working Mr. Speaker, I am just going to move off of in their local community. Many times that has that fo r a second to talk about my constituency worked very well. fo r a moment, just to say a few words about many of the events that took place out in Arthur­ I do not begrudge the provincial government Virden this summer. Many communities hosted fr om taking that program and expand it into the fairs and many regional events. There were city of Winnipeg because they have now made many opportunities. You know Waskada has the the rural Grow Bonds program available Threshermen's Demonstration Days. throughout the province of Manitoba, particu­ larly in the city of Winnipeg. The Inter­ Boissevain, of course, held their 30th and governmental Affairs Minister, with all of the final Boissevain Turtle Derby to great success. responsibilities, has been placed in a very So many people indicated they had never had the difficult position, I am sure, because I would not opportunity to be to one before that they even want to take away fr om the core issues of reconsidered perhaps for a second or two downtown Winnipeg or any other region of the whether they should do another one, but they province. But a program that was working will be on with another fine project in that relatively well in rural areas has now been community as well. Of course, there were many diluted into other areas. It would be fine if there tours. People toured the new Irvin Goodon was a doubling of the kinds of dollars that were Museum for natural resources and natural habitat available for that kind of program, but to date, in the area of Manitoba and all over the world we have not seen that kind of financial that Mr. Goodon has built and displayed. It will commitment to them. Of course, it is very be an attraction to that community for years to doubtful that this Government will be able to do come. The Virden rodeo, of course, was one of that given the financial restraints that are on the best, hell, voted the best actually in 2000 in them at the present time. Manitoba. The Pierson craft sale the first Saturday of October every year brings people Mr. Speaker, another example might be in from all over the province and is very much the area of the Rural Economic Development acknowledged as one of the most greatly Initiative, the REDI program, where this attended fr om all over Manitoba and Saskatche­ program will now be delivered through the wan and some of North Dakota, being so close Communities Economic Development Fund, in to the American border. It is a huge success another manner, through the Department of every year in its community, and I have always 228 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 200 I

looked fo rward to attending it as well. The before, and that many of the farmers in western Hartney Hopper Days I guess were held in the Manitoba who were, if I can use the, it is not August long weekend again. Each community even a very good pun, Mr. Speaker, but they just has so many diffe rent events that it is a real were left out to dry by this Government fr om the opportunity and a real pleasure fo r me to have '99 flooding situation of a loss of 1.1 million the opportunity, as it is all of our MLAs, to get acres of unseeded area of land. I heard the to the events that take place in their minister of highways and government services constituencies. I just want to congratulate all of try to do his very best to cover up the fact that the people that worked so hard in each of those they have done nothing fo r that region of the communities fo r the time� and energy that they world in regard to the Budget that they have had are putting into it. over the last two years in this House, and I do * (17:30) not expect to see anything fr om him in the third Budget that this Minister of Finance (Mr. Mr. Speaker, these people believe in their Selinger) brings down next spring, because I do communities. They do development programs on not think he or the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. a daily basis in them, and they very clearly want Wowchuk) have given him clear direction on to develop each and every one of their what he needs to do in that region. Certainly, the communities. Of course, one of the fine things citizens tell me that, and they are very concerned that is happening in southwest Manitoba, I am a about the lack of support that has been there by bit concerned about the location earlier in the this Government. year, but the new fe ed mill that is going in the Souris region, just east of Souris in my Those small little processing opportunities neighbouring Member for Minnedosa's (Mr. that perhaps seem nebulous and not large enough Gilleshammer) constituency, will use some 10 to deal with are the very lifeblood of small million bushels of grain in our southwest region communities. Creating two, three, five, six jobs of Manitoba. In the coming year it will be on­ at a time in a rural community of 100, 300, 400, stream for next fall's crop in 2002. That is 500, 1500 people is exactly what is needed in indicative of the change that is taking place in this province to continue the rural development. rural Manitoba. This is part of the vision and That is why some of the programs that the part of the plan in rural development that we previous government brought in were so .need in this province. important to the decentralization, if you will, in the province of Manitoba to spread the Now rural developm(:nt is not just how do opportunities fo r others to see how great some of you take wheat and turn it into flour. It is a the areas of Manitoba are, and, at the same time, combination of all of those processing oppor­ as we continue to develop the city of Winnipeg tunities that we have in our daily businesses. It is and many of the other areas of Manitoba. an opportunity to combine some of the conservation and environmental concerns that The opportunities to find growth in these we have and make sure we do it right the first communities could be extended by government time in the developmental process. It is also the through many programs that the former educational opportunities for our youth and the government had under Rural Development and, health care that is nec�ded throughout the of course, which this Government is trying to do constituency and all of Manitoba. These under Intergovernmental Affairs. But I have opportunities, combined, are what I hope to deal great concern when I see opportunities being lost with and work with in rural development in the in the area of development in the livestock province of Manitoba and provide some vision industry in Manitoba at the present time. I have as we move toward the next election for the concern when I see a government come forward opportunities that will tak€: place in many of the with very little, if you will, support for pressing small communities of Manitoba and the the fe deral government to make sure that it gets opportunities from change that are taking place. on with common-sense solutions to environ­ mental planning in regard to the livestock We know that change has a requirement for operations that arebeing built in Manitoba at the capital that I have mentioned in this House present time. I would encourage the Minister of November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 229

Agriculture, as well as the Minister of gate, that would stop those fish from coming Conservation, and Intergovernmental Affairs, to upstream. Very hard to do when there are no press the fe deral government in its eff orts, rules or definition. I think this is just an example particularly on the Fisheries side. I know they of what the provincial government does not have been hired by the fe deral government to do understand in regard to the importance of well and to try to carry out their jobs in allowing these kinds of developments to go Manitoba, but I want to provide you with an ahead. example. But of course I have heard the Minister of This department basically held up the Agriculture at many forums as well speak about licensing of a hog barn of some 3000 sows in how they are supportive of the intensive Manitoba, in the western part of the province, livestock operations that are going on in the for some fo ur to six weeks, just waiting for an province today. I congratulate her for that. I am environmental approval for fish that might have not so sure that she personally believes that, that come out of the Souris River towards the barn they will be of benefit to the province. Of that was some two miles away and 50 fe et above course, she is also the one in their election the level of the water. It is just incredulous as to campaign that said we should limit the size of why this Government would have not gone to farms that we have in Manitoba. So that is a the fe deral government to seek why those concern to all of us. I think that that is Fisheries people were as concerned about fish government at its worst, if you will, taking a and why this Government has not gone to them look at determining what is best for farmers, to say: What are the concrete steps that we have telling them how to spend their own dollars and to go through to make sure that we can develop inhibiting them from being able to be as that process? developmental in their own opportunities as they can. I will just outline a little bit. The opportunity was there to create-and we are not speaking here There are a number of other areas that I of a small investment. It is in the neighbourhood would like to touch on before I close. Of course, of some $11-million investment in the local one of those is the area of education. We have region. This party was told that it was totally up seen in this House in the last few days a very to them to determine what kinds of fish were great concern about the kinds of dollars that a going to be coming out of that particularbody of particular minister flowed through, the Minister water, being the Souris River, and as well what of Education in this case, to another school mechanism they should use fo r a stop gate to division in Manitoba. Very clearly, this is a stop those fish from coming upstream. Well, the concern fo r many school divisions whom they stream that was being talked about was a low just told that they had to amalgamate as well. I part of a field, a depression, which, nine years think that, as many of these school divisions in out of ten, was cultivated and seeded. It was Manitoba, with more discussions and some what we call runways in most of the terminology concern, sitting down with them, looking at in Manitoba farms. developing perhaps a formula fo r putting some common effort toward finding mechanisms of This Government needs to become more assessment, amalgamation would have been a heavily involved with the fe deral government in great priority for the Government to have taken clearly defining what is required for this and to put in place, instead of using the heavy particular kind of development. When chal­ hand of government to say thou shalt, you must lenged, the Fisheries people indicated that they amalgamate. could not tell what was needed because of course it was up to the farmers to determine In some cases, it is fe lt that perhaps they what kinds of fish were coming up to start with, only went partway. Why did they only touch so it did not mean whether they were three or some areas of the province and not others? fo ur pounders or whether they were minnows. Certainly a concern to many rural citizens, as it That was a problem, yet you were supposed to is I am sure here in the city of Winnipeg when design a mechanism, a float control kind of a you have an opportunity to make some major 230 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001 changes. They really did not do the job they had done on some of the areas here of rural set out to do, but from what we have seen of the development concerns in the province today as Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) in this well. House in the last week, it is not much wonder that he fe els that he has a pretty strong hand in Mr. Speaker, on health care as well, this dealing with these issues and that he knows best Government is-I guess I would have to say what should happen in rural areas, in fact, all another area that perhaps they are so proud of over Manitoba. In this House it is of very grave the kinds of promises they made during the concern to the citizens of Manitoba, and it is election. But I think it is a signal to the citizens coming fo rward each day how this Minister has of Manitoba of how overzealous this Govern­ perhaps been negligent in some of his own ment got in saying anything that would attract processes within his own department and at his the people's attention to get them elected. Very very clear direction, Mr. Speaker. clearly, six months and $I5 million, which not only during the election campaign, but was * (17:40) repeated by their own minister in this House after the election, was their promise to Manitobans. We will end hallway medicine. We That is what concerns the citizens of will fix all your health woes. They have certainly Manitoba. It is the kind of attitude and heavy­ fo und out that it is a much more serious situation handed tactics that have been displayed on some than that, and they have also fo und out that it is a of these other issues when, of course, we were national concern. one week fe igning honesty, integrity and consultation, and the next week, showing that he I think that is why Manitobans are now was actually the cause fo r the same dishonesty, starting to question this Government's resolve, lack of consultation and lack of integrity that because they do not trust the NDP in regard to took place in another region of the province. the way they have provided financial direction in this province. They basically say they are now I think that people look at this and they say: spending more per capita than anybody else in Who can we trust here? How can we trust this Canada on health care. They fail to say the minister any longer in the province of Manitoba? Conservative government, the previous govern­ That is why, clearly, our side of the House has ment, was doing the same thing. They were been calling for his resignation, and we have spending $2,100 per man, woman and child in even seen a few more of his ministers stand up this province. Number one in Canada. So, if and defend him. We have the chief financial spending more money was going to fix the officer of the Province of Manitoba and the health care situation, it would have been done a Minister of Finance (Mr. :Selinger) today coming long time ago, Mr. Speaker. fo rward and saying that, well, the things that he did were fine. I mean, I would indicate that I Now, the problem that this Government has always had a feeling from being newly elected is that they have a history of previous NDP with this Finance MinisteJr at the same time, that governments in the province of overspending, when I talked to him that he was very and being on a spending binge as happened from straightforward, very clear, very honest. Yet, in '84 until '88, and the credibility, as I said, in the defending this kind of activity that is so blatantly Throne Speech last spring, Mr. Speaker. They obvious and so well laid out in the times that the took this province from $I.4 billion in debt in minister from Brandon East has declared conflict '84 to $5.2 billion in '88. If allowed at the same of statements in this House in the last, even few extension that they have had in the last two days, it is very clear that the citizens of years; by 2005, we would have a $12 billion Manitoba would be callilng for this minister's budget, twice anything the Conservative govern­ resignation if they could in this House. That is ment ever had in this province in its II years of why our partyhas to do it, Mr. Speaker. We are rule in Manitoba, and so that is why citizens in credible Opposition in this House, and we will Manitoba do not trust them. I think, to their continue to bring forth those kinds of concerns credit, they thought, and they probably will be on behalf of the citizens of Manitoba, as I have able to come in and balance the books again next November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 231 spring which will be a major fe at for them given could and they could do that in some areas. That the fact that I think they have already spent a would be helpful. good deal of what they expected to get prior to September 11 in equalization payments and Mr. Speaker, the last thing I am going to say transfer payments from the federal government. before I close is that in Arthur-Virden today there are more new fence posts going in the ground than anywhere else in Manitoba, and Having done that, and Mr. Martin, the while all of Manitoba focusses on the develop­ Finance Minister in Canada indicating that he ment of the hog industry in Manitoba, we have will have to perhaps cut back in some of those got record numbers of cattle, particularly cows, areas, will leave the governing body in Manitoba in the province of Manitoba andthere are a lot of today with a large hole to fill, if you will. So, acres being seeded down to grass. clearly, they have gone out and warned the citizens of Manitoba that we will be dipping into There is a rejuvenation of the agricultural the reserves of this province and the rainy day community throughout rural Manitoba, but I fu nd. I would just like to be on record as other would say particularly in my region. Our citizens members in our caucus have been to say that if under duress made some very major changes in anyone has seen the rain happening in Manitoba, their operations. Many of the communities are then let me say it is the Finance Minister who doing much better at this time than they were in has caused it to rain. 1999. Thanks in no part to the Government that did not support them when the flood was on, but That has been said before in this House and has not been able to reduce taxation, that has perhaps not he, but he is the one responsible for forced amalgamation upon them and in school it, and he needs to be able to control or their areas and virtually changed the hospital structure caucus, their Cabinet needs to have a Treasury and the health care programs that we have in our Board, needs to have a better control of the region of rural Manitoba as well. departments that are out there spending money hand over fist, if you will. We know that there So these are citizens with dexterity. They are concerns throughout the province, a need fo r certainly know how to deal with hard time and dollars in many departments but during five they have taken it upon themselves to try to tough years of balancing, of trying to reduce the restructure their operations and fam ilies to the deficit in Manitoba in five more strong years of ones that have not been fo rced off the land in our no deficits in Manitoba. area, to try to make sure that they are going to do everything they can in their power to develop greater opportunities in the rural areas of Hard decisions needed to be made and they Manitoba. were made by the Conservative government in this province, and it is an issue of dealing with I am very proud of the citizens of Arthur­ priorities, not just saying, well, you can have Virden that have continued to bring forward new what you want, and you can have what you ideas and new opportunities in all of Manitoba want, and every department can go ahead and as well. spend helter-skelter because I am telling the citizens of Manitoba today are telling me that Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's they are now in grave concern. time has expired.

After only two years of NDP rule in this Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of province, they are very clearly indicating that Agriculture and Food): It was with interest that they would have liked some tax reduction. They I listened to the comments fr om the Member for would have liked to see the Government Arthur-Virden and I am very pleased that he continue with deficit free financing in the prov­ indicated in his final comments that certain ince of Manitoba, but this Government has sectors of agriculture are doing well, because we missed the opportunity perhaps to do that. Of often get this picture of this doom and gloom in course, if it became a priority for them, they still agriculture and I often say this to producers, that 232 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 2001 we have to start telling s.ome of the good stories, about the issue of how the whole world has some of the good things that are happening in changed since September 11, and share with you agriculture rather than just painting a picture of an experience and how it has touched each and doom and gloom. every one of our lives.

I give a lot of credit to the farmers of his On September 11, I happened to be in region and the farmers across this province for Mexico at an agriculture conference and on a the steps that they have taken to diversify their trade mission. I saw the incident on television. I businesses, their farm operations to take advan­ walked out of my hotel room and met the staff tage of the opportunities that are out there. I person who was with me. The look on his face guess I say to the member, I am really pleased told me that there was something very serious that he recognizes that this Government has going on. In fact, the person who was with me, taken positive steps, because he said there was his son worked in the World Trade Center. Of gloom and doom in 1999, that things have turned course, he was devastated because he was not around since 1999 in th1e farming community. I sure whether his son was in New York or am pleased to hear that he appreciates the work whether his son was in Toronto. He left ofthis Government. immediately to try to make a phone call to find out where his son was. He was very lucky that, * (17:50) in fact, his son had decided to work from the Toronto office rather than the New York office. I am pleased that our Government has had But the floor that the plane hit at the World the opportunity to make some negotiations with Trade Center was the floor that his son was the fe deral government and bring some money working on, and the whole unit that they worked into this province, although I would have loved with was wiped out. It was very tragic. to have seen much more money. Some of the money that we brought in helped some pro­ I share that with people just to say that I ducers. Certainly, I am proud of the work of our think that, in each and every one of our lives, Department of Agriculture and Food and of the there is someone that we can identify with that leadership role that they are playing, and the has a friend or a family who had been touched leadership role that the department is playing, in by this incident. It certainly brings a whole working with producers and providing informa­ different perspective to us, what kind of steps we tion and working with them as they work to have to take. That is why our Government is diversify into many, many areas. taking some steps to address security issues. I am very pleased that all sides of the House have Mr. Speaker, I want to first of all also been able to work on this issue. welcome you to the Chamber and wish you luck as you try to maintain decorum in this House. The member from Arthur-Virden raised the Sometimes I know that that can be a challenge. I issue of the impacts on the agriculture industry certainly want to welcome all the pages that are by the amendments to the legislation. I want to here in the Legislature with us and I hope that assure him that regulations will be brought in they find this term a worthwhile learning that will be as little burden as possible to the experience. I am sure that they will also find it farming community, but we have to recognize very challenging at times, as many of us do. that we are in a different time and that we have to take the precautionary steps. I am very I am very proud of the Throne Speech that pleased with the work that the security our Government has brought forward. I have to committee has done. say that I regret that I have to speak to an amendment that has bet�n put forward by the I want to talk briefly about some of the Opposition. However, I will address some of issues in my constituency and the work that our those points put forward In the amendment. Government has done. There are a few issues. One of them is the whole issue of the steps that I want to begin by talking about the security we have taken with the improvement of water legislation that we hav�: brought forward and quality and drainage. In the Swan River November 20, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 233 constituency, I was very pleased the other day to Conference, and at this conference producers be able to announce that our Government was had the opportunity to share their ideas. Many putting money into a new water-treatment plant times when conferences like this are held, it in Swan River. This will expand good quality tends to be the politicians that are doing the water, not only for the town of Swan River, but talking and the producers are there listening. for surrounding areas as well. I think we have Well, this is much, much different. At this taken many steps to improve the quality of conference, politicians spend very little time water. talking, and it is the producers that spend the majority of the time talking. There is also the issue of drainage, and I am proud that we are now taking steps to improve One of things, Mr. Speaker, that we did do drainages, because drainages and agriculture go at this conference was recognize the tragedy of very closely together. We have seen under the September 11, and, in a very touching ceremony, previous administration there was a huge we were able to send our condolences to our neglect, a huge cutback in the drainage budget, U.S. fr iends and offer our supports to them and in the staff involved in drainage, the pro vincial their fam ilies. The member talked about the need drainage program, and it has caused some very fo r a resolution and a debate on the floor on this serious problems. In fact, the member from issue. Well, we do it everyday in our lives. We Emerson indicated in one of his comments to the did it when we held this Northern Plains media that it was cutbacks by his government Producers Conference in a very fitting ceremony that resulted in the difficulties that many of the and gave our support and appreciation to our people in the southeast part of the province are neighbours across the way, and the ceremony facing. was very much appreciated. The people who were at the conference also made a point of So this year, Mr. Speaker, we were able to thanking Manitoba and thanking Canada for put some additional money in. We put an extra what we did on September 11 to open our million dollars into drainage. No, that is not airports, to open our homes and provide, when enough, but it is a step fo rward. It is a step all of those planes had to find a place to come forward fo r where the previous government was down during that tragedy. So there is very much going, because the previous government was an appreciation for the support that Canada gave. choosing to neglect the whole drainage issue.

The member talked about the Northern Mr. Speaker: Order. When this matter is again Plains Producers Conference, and I want to say before the House, the honourable Minister of that I was pleased that Manitoba could host this Agriculture and Food (Ms. Wowchuk) will have conference just last week to have producers fr om 31 minutes remaining. North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Saskatchewan and Manitoba come together and The hour being 6 p.m., this House is talk about issues that are of a challenge to them. adjourned and stands adj ourned until 1 :30 This is the second Northern Plains Producers p.m. tomorrow (Wednesday). LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Tuesday, November 20, 2001

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Annual Report of the Manitoba Securities Commission fo r the fiscal year ending March 31, Ministerial Statements 200 1 S. Smith 182 Ethnocultural Advisory

ORDERS OF THE DA Y Gerrard 200 Ashton 203 Second Readings Enns 212 Bill 2-The Security Management (Various Maloway 216 Acts Amended) Act Maguire 223 Mackintosh 193 Wowchuk 23 1