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CHARLEMAGNE PALESTINE

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erdam, ~ m ber 1977 I. ..·' i.]j I j I France Morin interview·ed Cha rlemagne Palestine in M ontreal on M arch 24. 25 and 26. 1978. i i I. France Morin: Charlemagne Palestine, you vitalness in her life except maybe as the key are Russian American. Were you of the to survival. In fact, the only man I ever 1 I generation that came to America or was it remember her having a real strong power­ your grandparents? ful, emotional and poetic link with was me. Charlemagne Palestine: My mother and I was in a sense her only husband and father were both children when they came perhaps still am. rc to America. They were born in Russia and You are talking of a very early age? al both came around the same time, the se­ We are talking about the beginning, as soon fu cond immigration of Russians around 1913. as I could walk, or talk, or take over, she h.: l From Minsk, which at that time was con­ was my protector against my father. Even­ ar .,' ' sidered to be part of Poland. My father tually my father liked me because I sang in (:'i- p~ came from Odessa. Both their families the synagogue and he used to like to come ch established themselves in New York. In and hear me sing. I was six or seven, seven la1 mother's family there were seven children. maybe. I used to do imitations of Johnny My grandmother left my grandfather for Ray and Frank Sinatra's songs, that kind of another man in the Yiddish theatre. She stuff for the neighbours. As a little kid, they .. ' disappeared and left the seven children tried to get me on Children's Hour and Ted with him. He had a breakdown, heart­ Mack's Amateur Hour because I was a real broken and everything and the family split entertainer. I would sing all these songs that ! i I . I up. Some of them went to orphanages, were on the hit parade like I was a crooner. some of them went to different places. My . A little kid doing stuff like tearing his shirts mother got married very young to my and singing. My mother always used to father. He had her work for his aunt, clean­ show me to all the neighbours. ing the house for room and board and a lit­ Did you consider yourself as a hero or did tle money. That went on for a very long you feel lonely? time and finally they got married. So she I never considered myself a hero. No, I was married, in a sense, out of necessity, not to a lonely kid, but I was always making be out in the street; I don't think she ever things, doing things. I was also a very really loved him. She openly admits it now. precocious kid. Was she a happy woman, when you were a And what about school? kid? I was just like I am now. I had a lot of style. No, she was very energetic, in fact if Teachers either loved me or hated me. I anything did affect me, it is the fact that I could not memorize things well and stuff never really had a father and that my like that. I was good at math for a while and mother was so energetic all the time. She then I got bored with it ... I had style, the was always working, she was always doing way I talked, the way I thought, the way I things in order to compensate for, I guess .. . would get somebody else in trouble; I was a she was never a submissive woman, she was cute kid, I had a lot of theatricality about never in love. Even if she loved music, she me. But I was not a good student. Women loved to listen to the radio, she would cry were always my allies. They always helped when she listened to a beautiful song but I me all through my schooling. 100 never got a sense that men had any real What kind of relationship did you have with •

, our brother? early so I slowly learned to use it. I went I never really had any relationship with him. through bad times around fifteen or sixteen, He had a relationship to me in that he was going to a psychiatrist. I did not know how always envious on the one hand and idoliz­ to use all this power, all this energy, all this Ing on the other. It turns out that finally he knowledge. But I had many years to slowly wanted to be an entertainer. My mother learn how to deal with the energy I had in­ would call him your lazy middle-of-the­ side me. With him it came like a geyser that road-kind-of-guy. That was the way he had been stocked up for years. All of a sud­ ge? always was. Then, later on in life ... he had a den the cork pulled out and it was like a funny way about him, because our family champagne bottle gone berserk. has a funny way about them. You know, we I guess it changed a lot of things in your life? are nutsy-kookoo and Slavic and his It changed everything. First of all, I became physicality was very strange. He had a lot of the comic, I had always been a · bit of a charisma but he never used it and finally, comic, the idea of the comedian, of he who later on in life, it got stronger. Some people stands, who looks around and speaks of it of J start very excited and then they peter out, became a part of my work almost instantly. hat kind but he began to look more and more in­ Within a few months there was a piece, I le kid, tense every year. The last year I saw him, he did not even know, it was unconscious, but urand followed me all around New York. We I took on his I ife, I added his quest to my would go from bar to bar and he would im­ own. I had always seen the image of the itate my actions. He would stand in dif­ world with him in the middle and me on the ferent parts of the bar and he would do edge. He was going to have children in the these antics. The first time we ever had a middle of the world and I would always be comic show together was the last year of tightroping on the edge. The second he his life. He would even imitate some of my died, I started pulling away from the edge style; he would watch how I would do and started r.1oving closer to the middle . something then he would do it the same ... moving away from the edge because you '·No, I was way. It is like he was playing the salesman, were afraid ... of doing the same thing? ys making · he was beginning to understand purely I knew that I could not die. I had a death so a very what delivery was about and he was shock­ wish from the time I was very young. He ingly good. became me in some strange way, I don't He never had a chance to perform puplicly know, I am even wondering if he did not ot of style. before he died? become me. This may sound bizarre, but :1ted me. I Actually, he began to call me up on the maybe there was a sacrifice that was sup­ I and stuff ~ phone a lot, at four, five in the morning, the posed to happen in my family and I was to 1 while and last months and I had the vision once of be the early sacrifice. My psychiatrist said f style, the holding the phone and it was shaking, so in­ that if I had not come to him, I would be the way I :.i tense was his delivery. I had the first terror dead. So maybe he saved me. Somebody Jle; I was a :'t. ever that he was going to surpass me. I was supposed to die. A death wish is not :1lity about :• __f: remember feeling it the first time and did something that everybody just has. I almost 1t. Women ., did die a couple of times, car accidents, etc. -~.'. not have much more time to experience it ays helped because he was dead soon .after. That is You seem to always be running away from why he died, he could not handle it. It is death? r have with like, as a magician, I was given my stripes Yes. I once told a friend: "Death is at my 101 with Jew heels every minute and I just keep running My mother wanted me to be the big deal, What at away from it." In some way that is how I like a Jerry Lewis, Tony Bennett, Frank l ~ :· 'classical feel deep inside. It is survival. It is the idea Sinatra, like the important Jewish enter­ that at any moment the enemy is tainers anyway. For a Jew, the great singer :l~. J Jheory n - ~i: said to t~ everywhere. If I stop for just a minute I will was AI Jolson, he was like a cantor, like the ~ . ' don't bot be killed. cantor for the populace. Then there are the was gooc It gives you that incredible impression of great Jewish actors like Edward G. Robin­ genius ir "readiness" ... I guess for whatever can hap­ son, Louie Strasberg, they all come from the months,< pen. Yiddish theatre. So there is the actor, there · ter than , Yes I am ready, that's all. I am not terrified. is the singer, the crooner, then the cantor, attracted I am not optimistic. I am not pessimistic. then there are the rabbis, the rabbis of never lea I'm just ready. entertainment. Then there are the buffoons You also : Did you believe in a Cod or the notion of a of which we have a great mimy. I feel I en­ orchestra, superior force? compass them all. I have begun to encom­ to go bac He is invisible, that is the big difference bet­ pass all the traditions of those public I was su ween Catholic kids and Jewish kids. We are members, the cantors, which proved that . studied w waiting for the Messiah, so we figure the through the power of their voice and senti­ ·· von Stade Catholics saw this guy come around and ment, through song, uplift the people. The ·' used to si 1 they chose too early. It is all from the same actor who through the power of his persona ·; conductin source, but from our source, he has not and his delivery, uplifts the people and then \~ ductors come yet. Nor do we believe and I don't the comic who through the power of his :~1: George C think we ever will, that God is about love, comedy shows people their foibles. Those · known. I j God is somebody like the kids who used to are the three major models of male · ,c.. plex wait for me after school. God is Jehovah, Jewishness, of what the great master was in d go God is very temperamental and unpredic­ the village, the magician, the medicine man ld be ; table. He is not what we call "good". Every or the shaman, plus also the power of so often, he throws his power around. I dance, not secular dance, but sacred dance don't trust him. I spar with God. He which is what the Hassids used to do. They manifests himself in his power. Storms are were like dervishes. Their dances would get his power, the sun· is his power, the moon is faster and faster and they'd do it for hours his power, the sea is his power, the moun-. and hours, jumping up and down. In that tains, the wind, that is when I see him. That sense I am a Hassid as well. SoJ encompass is how he shows himself to me. in my work all the properties of the artisan How can you feel some relationships with building temples. Filling places with people from the same part of the world magical papers and things that transform. I when your origins are so unprecise? am like a middleman betWeen God and The only way I have <;orne to understand that is what my role is even in Soho, I am my own heritage is by searching my own not just an artist. I am very much a senator body. That is the only way I found out. I in the family and many people have a found out a lot because I have. begun, moral or spiritual role in their life so that almost like a historian, digging into myself they can feel better about their life. I am for answers . probably intuitively just living a rabbinical ... and how did you get involved in the field life, that shamanism is not just in my work. 102 of entertainment? But nothing in my work has anything to do with Jewishness . ed in itself, was communicative in itself and ~ Vhat about your education, you studied could relate to any other medium. I was in­ classical music? volved with electronics, I was involved with Theory mostly, conducting, composition; I dance but in a superficial way, not super­ said to the teachers: "If I don't bother you, ficial in terms of my involvement but in don't bother me." We made a deal. Since I what they were as mediums; I consider that was good at doing things intuitively, I had it was superficial as part of a stereotype. All genius immunity. I would disappear for I met were stereotypes. I tried to merge all months, come back and still could do bet­ these stereotypes together to come up with ter than anybody else. I just learned what something. attracted me. I am still that way. I could You were living in New York at that time, never learn a subject, just to learn it. what was your relationship with the art You also said before that you conducted an world? In terms of history, did you like the orchestra, that you sang, do you ever want abstract expressionist painters, for example? en com-' to go back to those activities? I just loved the Jewish New York painters. I · public . I was supposed to be a great singer, I even did a few paintings. Now I am thinking ted that studied with the same teacher as Frederico of painting again, going back to the way I nd von Stade, now a famous opera singer. We used it then, right out of the tube. I would pie. The used to sing duets together. Then, I studied do long continuous gestures and then I persona conducting at the same time as many con­ would pinch them onto the canvas. Like :tnd then . ductors like Michael Tilson Thomas, long snakes. I did a whole series of pain­ !r of his · · George Cleave, who are now quite well­ tings like these close to fourteen years ago. s. Those known. I just had to live out a much more As far as the art world, I met Tony Conrad •f male complex and far-reaching vision. Now I in the experimental film world and Mort ~r was in .,. , could go back to these other things. It Subotnick in electronic music. That was my me man ']", would be fun conducting, I would not mind link with the multi-media world. I also ::>wer of ·· spending a year conducting, a year writing, studied with Pran Nath in 1969 where I met d dance a year doing a film. That is my dream now. La Monte Young. We were both doing con­ :lo. They That is my ideal, to spend every minute of tinuities. ould get :~ my life working on all possible endeavours You were also playing the bells at that time, or hours until I die. around 1%5-66, what exactly were you pla y­ In that Ho w did you get in volved with the art ing? :om pass world? Well, I was supposed to play just hymns but =artisan In the art world I started by getting involved soon I began to play John Cage's music for with =s with multi-media. It was in the sixties, the carillon. I began to play my own pieces 1sform. I early sixties and it had to do with electronic around 1965 that were all about pure ;od and music, lasers, light, film, dance. It was a sonorous ringing. I would be up in the tower 10, I am ·,;­ hodge-podge. When I started: there was and the bells would ring and ring envelop­ . senator Cage, Stockhausen and computerists like ing me in their gyrations and vibrations. I have a ;.~· Xenakis. To me, Cage' s personality began to play a continuous work evolving so that permeated his approach though his content each day with another segment, realizing fe. I am seemed to me very hodge-podgy and finally that I had created a soap opera, one .bbinical unclear. I brought unification of content, piece that lasted for five years. 1y work. where every element I dealt with was focus- Was it structured in any way or totally im- 103 1g to do ,, f provised? right place, it did not matter what its source m) It is just like I do now. With my perfor­ was. There were all these little pixies inside jus mances people often want to know if it is of me with little knives stabbing themselves bo notated. I can only work in the spontaneous that made me a generator of one of those thE moment, I can create a work that has all big engines and by the force of their stabb­ wa the elements of a finished work because I ings created my power. When it was back­ get carry it with me. When I am given to do it at ing up, like a clogged toilet, everything pur the intense moment, it all comes out right. I shorted and I was a mess. Once I began to thil cannot do it in the abstract, I can't do it let it out in things that gave pleasure, I tha alone or privately, I have to be in a public became better at it. Now I am much more · a place and then it comes out as though it relaxed, but still these little pixies are stabb­ dar were written. It is not improvised. That is ing themselves and it is still an energy my just my style which is about the moment. source, but now it's successful business. The ... ~~.. ,, my People have said I was involved with the method has not changed, it won't change. ~; f~· up sound as an object, making the sound like a What about this sentence: "This pain and =~ . dan sculpture. It is pure sensuality, what makes this feeling of impotency comes back all the whE me feel good, then I look at what makes time, everything just looks so bleak all of a My other people respond and then I decide sudden." Is this sensation depressing? . ' to r how to use that knowledge. But first I in­ No, I don't think so, it's just a price, that's dulge myself completely. the price. So maybe once every day for half Did "glory" preoccupy you from the beginn­ an hour I feel like that or maybe for an hour ing? or maybe for more, the price for living a life Yes, from the beginning I wanted to be the. like I'm living. It doesn't seem like such a It is just about power, what you are doing is terrible price for glory ... It just seems like ,' i harnessing anxiety into power, into energy that's my destiny and that's the way it has which is the most powerful thing you can to be and so it doesn't seem contradictory harness. There are two energies, there's to me. Look at people who work in a fac­ faith, people who have positive faith, they tory, I'm sure they feel exactly that way , I become like the great protestants, or the more often than I. It's sad for them too and missionaries. That is using power coming they rarely have any sense of glory in their from a positive notion, even if a perverse lives, only degradation in a certain way, and one. Then, there is the harnessing of the humiliation. I don't feel any more humilia­ negative notion. I was the harnesser of such tion, degradation, im6otency or fatalism a powerful negative notion that it has made than they do. me superman in a certain way. It could be And when you said: "Sometimes I'm afraid · dangerous. of going too far"? How do you deal with all that energy? I'm not afraid of insanity but in a way what Energy is a powerful thing. Lots of energy is manifests itself in me is to get myself killed. dangerous unless you know where to put it. I don't think I've ever been prone to the Energy can break windows, yet the energy, kinds of extremes that insanity shows itself if it were used correctly, could build a table. in. I'm prone to extremes but it's not the I had an incredible amount of energy and it kind that would happen just in my mind. It's was all negative energy, all self-destructive the kind that would take me somewhere, I 104 energy. Once I began to let it out in the would do something beyond the fringe in