Offering Spiritual Healing to the Betrayed Katy Willis Betrayal Trauma Coach

Kurt: Welcome back to another session of the Liberating Saints Virtual Summit. Today we are talking with Katy Willis. How are you, Katy?

Katy: Fabulous. How are you, Kurt? Kurt: Nice. Now I'm going to claim that you're standing in front of a blue screen. That's a fantastic background. Where are you right now?

Katy: That would cut me short if you did that, Kurt. Right now I am in Lava, Idaho. I have been finishing up some training for yoga. So I get to have this gorgeous backdrop for real.

Kurt: Looks like a great place to do some yoga for sure. Tell us a little bit about your background and maybe about your story that's going to lead up to what we're going to talk about, what you'll cover today.

Katy: Sure. I guess I'll be back up. During our engagement, my husband let me know he had struggled with addiction basically, his whole youth. He had gone on a mission, was a returned missionary with a temple recommend. As I prayed, I just felt it really reconfirmed that it was the right decision to marry my husband. I almost felt like Heavenly Father was like, "Katy, this doesn't change. What you now know, that's the only thing that it changes is what you know. There we go. It doesn't change that this is still a good choice for you." Then eight years ago, I had another D-day when I found out that my husband Mark has been relapsing in pornography and sex addiction.

I feel like I'm coming with a really unique combination because in addition to personal experience with the betrayal trauma and these things that we're talking about with the summit, I have also used those experiences and the pain and the difficulty in finding resources and healing as fire under my feet to now be very passionate about helping and supporting other women.

So for me, I feel like the combination for healing for betrayal trauma is a body, mind, spirit combination. I can talk to you from, again, personal experience, physiologically, what happens when I go into trauma. I can talk to you about having my brain bounce back out, my nervous system shifting, my body literally shifting through yoga and neurofeedback. But now, as a professional, I teach yoga classes to kids, adults, and soon to be parents. I'm also a brain specialist. I'm trained in a protocol called Quantum Neurological Reset Therapy. It's basically balancing the brain and resetting the nervous system, where trauma not only changes our beliefs, but there are real physiological changes to the body from trauma.

Then again, mentally, I can talk to you from years of Addiction Recovery Program, LDS 12 Step, spouse meetings, SA Lifeline meetings, healing through Christ meetings and working all those steps. We also spent several years in the lifestyle therapy program. That is the program that Geoff Steurer - I noticed he was another one of your guests - works for. Again, I can talk to you professionally as a life coach. We can talk about the mental, emotional aspects.

From a personal standpoint, I can talk to you about spiritually what that was like to feel completely whittled down in my faith and at a crossroads of trying to figure out how to navigate things spiritually. But I can also talk to you from the standpoint of Mark and I having served as stake addiction specialists for our stake in the Brigham City South Stake for the past two years. I also have the great privilege right now to serve as Stake Relief Society president. Sometimes those two callings I feel like they just kind of blur together.

In summary, my background is personal experience, but then also experience in turning and helping to make the path smoother for other women.

Kurt: That's awesome. I think this is a crucial discussion because there's been talk about betrayal trauma in this conference, and it is crucial aspect, especially for leaders loved ones around the addict or individuals that are struggling to understand. Because it's easy to focus on the person with the problem, and we forget those that maybe are traumatized the most in this process. From your perspective, if someone isn't familiar with [00:05:00] betrayal trauma, how would you describe it to somebody?

Katy: Can I describe it as a brain geek and anatomy and physiology, because that's what speaks to me? Dr. Kevin Skinner had a book that came out in 2017, I believe called "Treating Trauma from Sexual Betrayal." He interviewed over 5,000 partners or spouses who were sexually

betrayed and then compiled his findings in this book. There was an original study done, I think it was about 12 years ago now that concluded that almost 70% of partners or spouses develop most of the symptoms of PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, which is a major mental health illness.

To try to paint this in a relatable maybe way, if we were to line 10 partners or spouses up in our ward or in our stake or our friends, seven of them are going to be dealing with major, major trauma. From a brain standpoint, what that means is, when we go into trauma, it's not like I'm like, "Oh, I'm triggered. I'm going to totally freak out." Like I'm in the middle of the grocery store. It's not something that we choose, it is physiologically wired. Our brain is trained to protect us. Because the last time that something like what's happening real-time present moment happened, then we got hurt. So the brain is going to kick in to try to protect us if that makes sense.

When a woman is in trauma, when we are having a trauma response, we literally do not have access to the part of our brain that is responsible for logic, and reason, and rational thinking. We are in that same part of the brain. Say, if, Kurt, I threw something at your face, if I could through my magic screen, what would you do? You'd block it, right? It's that instinctual, protective portion of our brain. So, that can be a really scary place when physiologically your body has changed and mentally, emotionally, you are wrestling intensely, like we'll get in later, with feeling like...

Let me maybe make it personally. When I was at the very beginning stages of healing eight years ago, it was so hard to know what was really true. Does that make sense? Because of the experiences that I had, it felt like the lies were real. The lies that I was not good enough, that I'm not worthy enough, and etc. So mentally, emotionally that can be a hard place. And spiritually, as well, as I said at the beginning, that that can be a scary place to navigate when you're trying to figure out how to integrate this new life story, this experience when you're faced with complexity and a paradox, basically, for many of us spiritually. Does that paint a picture for what betrayal trauma is?

Kurt: Yeah, it's helpful. I think like you talked about in different contexts, there's a physical part of this, there's a mental part of this, and where you're going to focus on - and I'll pull up your slides here - is the spiritual healing. There's a spiritual part to this that an individual goes through. I think throughout this conversation, we're going to be talking in the context of this experience with women, even though obviously when there's a betrayal of trust that happens even for men. You know, they go through this. It's a human experience. But I think, in this context, we'll focus on the women's experience. But there's a spiritual part to this that maybe leaders and loved ones need to consider as these unfortunate circumstances unfold.

Katy: Yes. And to piggyback off of what you're saying, I feel like, in order to get to that spiritual part, we need to spend a few minutes on...The first few of these principles overlap more I feel like into the mental, emotional. But if we skip those steps, we will not have the privilege of working with somebody at the spiritual level. They just will not be open to that and we will not be able to listen. So are you ready to jump in then?

Kurt: Let's do it. Yeah. Katy: Okay, great. Principle 1. This is establishing safety. I feel like something to point out with this is, long before an individual [00:10:00] could come to us saying, "Hey, this is what's going on in my life. I'm really struggling with betrayal trauma," we have to establish ourselves as a safe person already. Because if we are really hard-hearted, if we are difficult to approach, then why would somebody feel safe to even take that vulnerable risk with us, if that makes sense?

I loved one of my trainers this week at the training that I'm at. He said, "The majority of healing is caring, not brilliance." If we have our own agenda then individuals will feel that. So we are there for them, not for ourselves. I love that because sometimes when we are trying to create that safe haven for people...Here I just told you that about 7 out of 10 individuals are experiencing a major mental health illness because of the betrayal. That might feel a little intimidating to work with these individuals. But if we are truly caring, that is what will create the safety for individuals.

I love Jodie Hildebrand in a resource that we'll share later in this presentation. She talks about how validating is a spiritual superpower. And I love that. When we have sympathy for somebody, we're thinking about what they might be feeling. When we have empathy, we're feeling with them. I'm smiling thinking about this. I will take the liberty that my stake president has often passed on to me, he says, "We're crusty white men."

I guess I want to be sensitive recognizing that that nurturing, and that validating, and that safe haven, I think that comes a little bit more [inaudible 00:12:11] to us as women. So I recognize that I'm putting out there something that might be really hard if maybe you resonate with that, if you resonate with what my stake president sometimes call himself as a crusty white man.

So even though you as a leader or you as even a friend or a family member have not been betrayed in this way, you know what betrayal feels like. You know what rejection feels like. And so if we can touch that place in us that understands that then they can feel that. Then it can be about them, rather than us being like, "Oh my gosh, she's totally angry, or she's making no logical sense." Or we just want to shut it down because it's uncomfortable for us, that's when it becomes about us. And [unintelligible 00:13:02] always be about them.

I asked several months back on my Instagram account for women if they were willing to talk about things that their bishops or stake president did to create safety for them, and I was blown away, Kurt. I was expecting to have these crazy, I don't know, stories. They were very, very simple. They were profound. But the women just talked about how they felt seen, they felt heard, their bishop listened to them. One woman, I was so impressed, she said that after her bishop had more awareness, he actually came back and apologized to her and was like, "I wasn't very safe for you, I'm sorry." And how that opened the door, even in retrospect.

Again, it's about caring, not brilliant. So if we can care about these women and help them to feel seen and heard, then that can be what's needed here. I don't know, Kurt if you've ever seen...On YouTube, there's a video clip about the nail. This woman's like, "Oh, I have such a headache, and blah, blah, blah." And he's like, "Well, you have a nail." And she's like, "All my sweaters are getting snagged." Sometimes we want to just fix it, and rushed in there and pull it out. But for individuals who are in trauma, it is essential that we establish this safety first and validate the experience that they're having.

And just because we validate the experience, it doesn't mean that we necessarily agree with what they're concluding about the experience. But if we do not exercise, that super spiritual power of validation, the door will not unlock. They will not be willing to allow us to interact with them on a deeper level.

One thought, and then two resources to maybe ponder and pray about this and make it your own. [00:15:00] One of my friends pointed out how painful it had been for her. That it felt like her priesthood leaders were focusing on the marriage first when on reality your number one priority when you have a woman or as you recognize sometimes the roles are reversed with the genders, but if you have a woman in your office as a priesthood leaders or you're friend, or a family member even, your number one priority has to be for her as an individual. The only way that the marriage will work is if both individuals do their own work and then come together and do the work to salvage the marriage. So the marriage is second. I don't in any way want to make light of that.

Kurt: It's still both, right? It's not like you can only pick one thing. Katy: You can pick both. But from our personal experience as a couple and then in the years of mentoring and facilitating and working with individuals as of professional, the order is individuals first.

Kurt: I love that. It's so easy to sort of default to the marriage, like, "Okay, let's just make sure that long term effects of this are avoided." We want to keep the family together, the marriage, so we default there.

Katy: Which you do. You do. Kurt: I feel like when the woman feels like you're really focusing on her healing, then she feels like, "Okay, maybe I can get to a place where I can actually consider this marriage working."

Katy: Exactly. And to reassure her. I mean, maybe we even say this, "I don't know what's going to happen to your marriage, but I know you will be okay." Because regardless of whether or not her marriage can be salvaged, she can still heal and have what she needs.

Two resources like I said to play with this and make it your own. The first, my stake president reassures me where I've never had handbook one, but he says, "Chapter 7 of Handbook 1, if you go through that, in this light of wanting to validate and create safety, then maybe you'll have some things to pick up on as far as listening rather than trying to control the direction of the conversation or how the individual's feeling, and really encouraging and supporting personal revelation."

The second resource that I would recommend is a book called "Crucial Conversations." Have you ever read that, Kurt?

Kurt: It's one of my favorites. Katy: Okay. And maybe you can help me, my takeaway of what I felt like the synopsis was is it really helped me to be aware to gauge safety in other people. And If I was starting to pick up on symptoms, if you will, that they are pulling back, how to meet them there and create that safety so that they feel like they can share authentically. Is there anything that you feel like you would add having read that book, Kurt?

Kurt: It's just a strong resource as far as having really difficult conversation. I think they explained it as when the stakes are really high, you as a participant in that dialogue, you run the risk of saying something that can either destroy the dialogue or turn it really negative. So they give you some great tactics and best practices in that book where you can really navigate some different conversations. Not that you'll handle them perfectly, but there can be a variety of ways to recover even when maybe you said it wrong.

Katy: Yes. As you say that, just briefly, and then let's move on to principle 2. I have found that if people feel like I genuinely care and it's about them, if I'm doing my best to see them and hear them, If I'm reflecting back, I want to make sure I've got this right. Is this what you're saying?" then they are not upset to come back and be like, "No, that's not what I'm saying." Or "Yes, and I'm saying this." I love that. You put it out. It gives you opportunities to always have a retrospective way to make it right if we are getting on rocky ground with the safety.

Principle 2, connected individuals with resources. Can I talk a little bit about what we've been doing in our stake, Kurt?

Kurt: Yeah, that'd be awesome. I just want to emphasize connecting the last point to this point, like [inaudible 00:19:21] saying with the spouse, one thing that I heard from another woman's experiences that when she went in saw the bishop, sometimes that's an awkward conversation, right? It's like, "Well, how are you doing, sister? How can we help you?"

But she said that one of the most helpful things, which leads into this is, that the bishop just started stacking resources on his desk.

Katy: Yaay. Kurt: "Oh, well, there's this program" and "oh, and there's a pamphlet here, definitely look at that." What this did, because the woman feels like, "I don't know what to do and I'm hopeless because I'm the only one that's ever gone through this." That's what it feels like. And so having a leader that just as familiar with resources. [00:20:00] Even if they're not spectacular resources, the fact that it exists, that's going to go a long way.

Katy: I love that. You're so spot on. Because that gives hope. Can you picture the summary of what we just said? That, again, whether we're a friend, a family member or a leader, we have an individual coming to us, and we are able to validate and be like, "Yes, that is painful. That is so hard, and my heart breaks with you." We're not pulling that nail out. We're validating that.

But then we can speak and say, "Do you know what, I have worked with a number of couples as I've been serving this calling," or "I have several friends who struggled with this, and there is hope. And the good news is there are so many resources available." And "Oh, yay, praise that Bishop I'm so happy to hear that and I think that...Okay, this is perfect."

I am a nurse in another life. I used to work in cardiac nursing. Now I'm doing my brain geek stuff. But I'm in the medical profession, we talked about how there's a golden window. Basically, if an individual has a physical trauma through an accident or an illness, the quicker that they can get adequate medical attention, the better chances that they have of healing and recovering, and even in some situations preserving their life.

There's also a golden window with individuals. The first 72 hours after a traumatic event such as discovering a partner or spouse's addiction, the brain is literally recording different. I was actually mentored maybe 18 months ago by a traumatologist. It was so interesting. He's a therapist and had devoted his life's work to understanding more about trauma. Something that he

taught me is that there's a direct correlation with how traumatic that first 72 hours is and the incidence of PTSD.

So for that sister who I don't know how quickly she got in with her Bishop, but let's just pretend it was in the first 72 hours or less, her Bishop was able to validate her and stack resource after resource and give her hope. I mean, I don't know if this happened for that woman or not, but say if she felt to reach out to anybody else within her circle, be it a family member or friend and she was met with that same validation and safety and confidence and hope, then her chances of PTSD literally go down.

It's exciting to me because we don't have to have such a high incidence of PTSD. We don't. While I'm thinking about that, and then I'll show you this box that we give out in our stake, one of the things that our trainer said last night - he is a doctor. He's a yogi too, but he's a doctor. He is an internist. He actually works at the ICU for some of his patients - and he said when they have patients that come in, the ones that get the miracle are the ones that have like 10 family members in the room all the time, and just friends constantly going in and out. I apologize there's a train. So please holler if the train is too loud as it passes.

And I love that. Because the more we can surround individuals recognizing that our role maybe as a family member or friend or a leader, it may be to really refer out for the physical and the mental, emotional, and to focus on holding their hand through the spiritual. And that's okay. But if we can connect them with friends, a circle with 12 Step, with a good therapist, with a good yoga class, little by little, they will be surrounded by their community. That can help make a miracle of healing possible in their life. This was really amazing.

There is a nonprofit organization called Sending Light, and they do this concept as well. They call theirs light boxes. We wanted ours to be as Christ-centered as possible, so we came up with our own care packages. These ended up costing us about $9 a package. It includes everything. It includes all of the printing, all of the items in the box, and everything except my little, my custom made stamp that I bought from Etsy. This is a scripture in Isaiah, it says, "For I am the LORD God will hold of thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help you." That's Isaiah 41:13.

We tell our bishops to ideally get these packages to the women like we talked about in that golden window in 72 hours or less. We recognize that isn't always feasible. [00:25:00] You have a life, you have things going on, and that's fine. The most important thing with our care package is actually the letter as you see in the picture. The envelope includes a letter from our stake president, a letter from me, and then a list of local and online resources, looking at it from a physical...

[crosstalk 00:25:19]

Kurt: ...Stake Relief Society president, right? Katy: Not at the time. Kurt: Oh, okay. Katy: Not at the time that I wrote... Kurt: So is that letter from a woman that has experienced this? Katy: Yes, from a woman who has experienced this. This was so cool, Kurt. This summer, I was connected to a woman, we were at an event, and I asked her, "Where are you from?" She's like, "I'm from Brigham City." I'm like, "Really? Me too. What stake are you in?" She's like, "I'm in the South Stake." And I'm like, "Oh, that's me, too."

Anyway, like a week or so later, she got up the courage, and she's like, "This might sound really weird and it's okay if it doesn't make any sense to you. But are you the Katy from the care packages?" Kurt, I heard her story, which is phenomenal. She moved into our stake. One week after she moved into our stake on a Friday night, she found out about her husband's addiction. And on Sunday, her bishop gave her one of these care packages. She just talked about how it helped her so much to not feel so alone, and it gave her hope.

At the time that letter was as an addiction specialist. I don't know how many women who have gotten this have connected that now I'm the Stake Relief Society president. But how cool would that be to incorporate that? Like maybe a letter from a woman who's been through it, something from the stake Relief Society, or maybe even a Ward Relief Society and something from the Stake President. Then you were so excited about that part. Did you catch? There's also a list of online and local resources broken down into physical, mental, emotional and spiritual. So that's the most important thing in our care package.

The next thing...I don't know, can you see this? This is a picture of Christ behind a woman. The painting is called Forget Me Not. This was still fun to figure out how to engineer this because I'm not an engineer. But we have a little label that we stuck to the back of the picture just encouraging the women to abide in Christ. We'll talk more about that at a later principle.

Then there is a bracelet that says "You are enough" and then on the back is another label. It is so common for women to feel like they caused this. It's 78% of partners or spouses feel like the addiction is their fault at least half the time. And one out of three feels like they caused some addiction all the time. So we wanted the women to know upfront. Another with this picture, 77% of partners and spouses admit that they turned to distracting behaviors. Both of those statistics 9

come from Dr. Skinner's book. So we wanted our women to know upfront how to avoid these common pitfalls.

Next, we have a face mask and a nail polish and TCOY. I actually learned this from my daughter. When she was a kindergartner, she came home from school and she was saying to her little brothers, "TCOY." And I'm like, "What?" And she's like, "Duh, take care of yourself, mom." That is what her kindergarten teacher had told her on her first day of school.

Kurt, I don't know your awareness, but a lot of women talk about how in the immediate aftermath and especially that 72 hours, they didn't eat, they couldn't sleep. Again, just the shock. So this is a reminder for the women to really put themselves first and foremost and take care of themselves. The last thing in here besides paper [unintelligible 00:29:01] is this quote by President Uchtdorf, now Elder Uchtdorf, excuse me. He says, "if you feel small and weak, please simply come unto Christ, who makes weak things strong." Can you hear that with the train?

Kurt: Yeah. Katy: It seems like it's really small because it really wasn't a lot of work to put that together. Something really cool, a lot of people came together from our stake, even from our community because we put together 70 of these boxes. It wasn't a lot of work to put together, but for the women who have gotten these boxes, and the women that I've been able to talk to, it has been life-changing for them.

I guess I can speak from the opposite. I didn't have that. I didn't have any of this, Kurt. That is why I'm so passionate about it is because, [00:30:01] you know, like we were talking about earlier, we don't have to be brilliant. We just have to be caring. It doesn't have to be rocket science. I might just be naive and a crazy optimist, but I firmly believe that we can make it better than it has been for women. So connecting them with those resources in the immediate aftermath, if that's possible. I love what you shared, just as a symbol of hope.

Also in this principle of connecting with resources, I just want to briefly hit on how important it is that the resources matched. If you want to go back a slide, Kurt, I purposely chose this picture of the plants in the hands. I have a black thumb. So maybe you're a better gardener than I am. So hopefully, if I'm throwing out incorrect information, you'll have to correct me. But I was just thinking about how as we plant a seed, each different plant needs to things different. Some of my plants need more water or less. Or if I were to take one of my indoor plants outside, and the frost would destroy it. It's not that it isn't a good seed, it just needs the right combination in order to grow.

Like you were saying, with that Bishop who is stacking resources, they may not have been the best resources, but it brought hope. What I've learned from my own personal experience, and

again, in working with women, is if an individual is still struggling, they need more resources, right? So like, "Oh, I'm going to 12 Step." That's great. And add in something for the spiritual, and add in something for the physiological. Maybe yoga isn't your theme. I have friends that love to go hiking the mountains or run, and that's working for them. So making sure that we are connecting individuals with resources that fit.

One specific thing I feel very strongly to insert, at least in my area, I know that LDS Family Services is working on becoming better equipped to handle pornography, sex addiction betrayal trauma. But my understanding at this point is they aren't. They are intended to be a short term resource - you're talking three to six months. That'll lead us into the next principle here in just one second. But as you are offering resources to individuals, weigh in the individual components of what they have going on.

In that example of saying, "Oh, just go to LDs Family Services," well, can she handle the secondary trauma of meeting with a string of therapists who don't understand, who would encourage a wife to do things that in other therapeutic situations would actually work? But in a betrayal trauma context, because the husband is the one who's causing the trauma, if we follow those steps that work in other difficult situations, it's actually going to make it worse, if that makes sense.

So just being sensitive that we are building...Just like that plant is going to need a special, specific recipe compared to other plants, each individual is going to need something different. There is no magic bullet if that makes sense. You have to offer it and play with it. Please go ahead.

Kurt: I just want to emphasize. We don't need to spend a lot of time on it, but when you say secondary trauma, what I understand just the experience of trying to resolve the trauma can be traumatic going in to speak with your bishop, seeing counselors. Nobody looks forward to that in life or wants to be in the stage of life where they need those things. So it can sort of layer on to that trauma. So that's where we need to be careful with this. Here we are trying to help and "Oh, why don't you meet with me three times a week and a counselor four times a week?" Just that process can add additional trauma. And if that bishop or loved one or counselor doesn't handle it very well, again, you're sort of magnifying the trauma that's already there. So it's just something to be aware of.

Katy: I'm so glad that you paused and you clarified that because that's absolutely spot on. I guess out the other side of my mouth, I also want to acknowledge being a leader right now, as Stake Relief Society, we have a mantle. So kind of finding the middle ground that we're not relying solely on the mantle. And Kurt, thank you for Leading Saints.

But we aren't just like, "Okay, well, I'm the bishop or I'm the Stake Relief Society president so I know what to do." But we're ignorant and insensitive. Yet on the other side, to be like, "Oh, my gosh, I don't know how to handle betrayal trauma. I don't know how to prevent secondary trauma and get so wound uptight." The truth is, God qualifies who he calls. I have found, as I am a green leader, that the more that I have in my bucket, the more [00:35:00] that I am studying, the more that I'm seeking to understand, then when I'm called upon in that moment, there's something to draw from. Does that make sense?

Kurt: Yeah. Katy: I hope that the listeners can understand we're not saying, "Well, unless you're a therapist, you cannot work with these individuals or a friend, a family member or a leader." No, no. But so huge to be sensitive that we are not causing that secondary trauma that you're talking about. That they're getting trauma from the trauma as they're actually trying to heal. So thank you for clarifying that.

Kurt: Because it's easy to sometimes see couples or individuals in these circumstances and think, "Oh, I don't want to say the wrong thing. So I'm just going to [inaudible 00:35:44] face." I think that's a bigger mistake. You're never going to be completely wrong by just stepping forward, offering support, letting them know they're not alone, and that you have resources that can help. [inaudible 00:35:58] We had just a hard cut edit there, but Katie, your battery died.

Katy: Part of my shaking out there was nerves, but the other part is it's cold. But I was just going to say, as you were talking about sometimes we feel intimidated to reach so we do nothing, one of my dear friends here at the training, she lost her husband. And they're young like late 30s, early 40s tops, and they've got four little boys. I mean, how do you reach to somebody like that? You just feel so under capable.

We have some smaller groups within the big group that were assigned to work with. We sent her flowers, and I'm like, "I don't know what else to do. I don't know what else to say." I texted her. One day, I was putting together some gifts for some of my yoga students. We were on our last class, and it popped in my head, "Just send it to her."

I didn't even include a note. I just put it in a package and sent it to her. There was a necklace in there, and it says, "I can." When we got together for our next...because we meet for four different weeks - I missed that part - over six months. So when we got together for this first day of training this week, she was like, "Katy, the thing that I keep saying to myself is, "I can't do this. I can't do this. This is too hard. This is overwhelming." And here was that necklace that says, "I can." Now you and I both know, I can't take credit for that. But I think the principle applies, whether we're a friend or a family member or a leader, Heavenly Father knows his children.

One super, super brief story. When I was set apart as Stake Relief Society president, one of the first things that I was told after I was given all the keys and all of that is "Heavenly Father knows his daughters. He's aware of the women in this stake even to the point that their very tears are numbered."

So knowing that that is our Heavenly Father, knowing that as covenant children we can qualify ourselves to be worthy for the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, Knowing how much Heavenly Father loves his children, I think we can take confidence in that. Not arrogance, but confidence in knowing that whatever efforts we make will be magnified and amplified. And if there are situations where we need to say just the right thing, or do just the right thing, we will know and we'll have everything that we need.

So going into principle 3, this piggybacks perfectly into this. It is becoming part of the long term spiritual support team. Join our team. Be part of our story. I love that little statement. What we are working towards in our stake and what I'm picturing again from personal experience and working with other women is we're creating that safety like we talked about, we're connecting them with resources, and we are going to refer out for all of the mental, emotional, or physical healing that needs to take place.

Unless we have professional training that overlaps into that, I know sometimes bishops are like therapists, again, we'd want to make sure that we would be qualified in this specific instance, not only for the addiction and the trauma but also for the individuals that we're working with. Are we really qualified to do that? In most cases, we're just referring all of that out.

Now that we've done that, we wash our hands and be like, "Cool." Pat, myself on the back, "I'm such a rad friend, I'm such a good Bishop, I'm done." No, there's plenty to do. Dr. Skinner found that almost [00:40:00] 30% of those struggling with betrayal trauma experience the PTSD symptoms for longer than two years but less than five years. And an additional 25% of individuals experience PTSD symptoms for longer than five years.

In our lifestyle program, they taught us that the addict in order to have the neurological changes and the frontal lobe coming back online, you're talking three to five years. Once an individual has five years of recovery, rather than just white knuckling it...My husband shared me some of the summary from Jason, where he said "addiction is a stress response disease when we can get at the root level for addiction and trauma." So five years of recovery work then the addicts has great chances of having a lifetime recovery as long as they [inaudible 00:40:56]. The point I'm trying to make here is this isn't just, okay, meet with the bishop once, one conversation with a friend or family member and they're good. This is on average, I would say two to five years. Give or take - maybe less needy longer.

Really now honing in on the spiritual piece, we've got two to five years to work with these individuals. So as I thought of a way to really whittle it down and condense it down, I feel like the work that needs to take place here is we are helping individuals to move through the complexity and find the simplicity beyond complexity. I recently read this book, ["Faith is not Flying"?] and I think he hit that on the head. So principle 3, we're going to become part of a long term team if we've done our work and were invited to have that privilege to be on their support team.

Principal four. Kurt, unless you have anything to add there.

Kurt: No. I think it's solid. You're good. Katy: Okay, you got it. Principle four is considering the individual. I came across this verse in Doctrine and Covenants. It's Doctrine and Covenants Section 90:11. At the time, I was serving as primary counselor. So even though I've read the Doctrine and Covenants so many times, I think, because we've been working on the article faith songs, this really jumped out at me at this time.

But it says, "Every man shall hear the fullness of the gospel in his own tongue, and in his own language." And I'm like, "Wait a minute, why is Christ saying twice? Like, 'oh, he's going to hear the gospel in Spanish and hear it in Spanish.'" Basically, is what jumped out at me, and I'm like, "I think those are two different themes." Because here I'm thinking of the gift of tongues, but what does it mean by his own language?"

Then later, I found this verse that we have with the picture on the screen here. This 2 Nephi 31:3. It says, "For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding, for he speaks unto men according to their language unto their understanding." When I found that verse in the Book of Mormon, I'm like, "Okay, I think I'm understanding a tiny piece of what the Lord is trying to teach me and trying to teach all of us. That the way that God work, because He knows his children because He's numbering the tears of His daughters and so aware of what individuals are going through, He even knows how to speak their language. He even knows what their learning style is. He knows how to get it in a format that will sink in. So as we are wanting to focus on moving individuals, through the complexity, to find the simplicity beyond the complexity of this earth-shattering life experience, we can take confidence like what we were talking about a moment ago. The heavenly Father knows that.

Now I later came across this verse in Matthew. Again, so familiar. I've read it over and over, but in this context, I had never caught it before. Listen to what happens when we hear the word but we don't understand. This is Matthew 13:19. We'll catch 23 in a second. "When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the wayside." So as we

are exposed to truth, but it doesn't actually sink in, that is when Satan and his little minions come in and twist it and torque it and totally take it out of context. So it's key that we are coming up with this [00:45:00] personally tailored plan because every individual is going to have that truth absorb differently.

Now listen in vs. 23 what happens when we understand. "But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; - The Joseph Smith translation says, and endure it - which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. What I take from that verse is, when people understand, then they do. We don't have to try to focus on the surface level. Again, Jason talking about white knuckling, we don't have to just be like, "Okay, quit going into trauma, partner, spouse. Just quit." When we understand, that is what produces result. Do you have thoughts on this principle, Kurt?

Kurt: No. I think those are powerful scriptures, and I think can help a leader or a loved one really draw upon some of these scriptural perspectives that can give encouragement and really just establish hope that the communication is coming. This is a process, but we'll get through it.

Katy: Principle 5, reading between the lines and below the surface. The easiest way, I think, for me to describe this is maybe to give some examples. Maybe you are aware...I guess, let's go there. You're aware of the women in your word, you know, a handful of women who are going through betrayal trauma. And maybe one woman you notice is like really focusing on physical appearance and went out and bought a new wardrobe and has a new hairdo and maybe has plastic surgery. Maybe another one that all of a sudden stops coming to church. These are things that we're seeing at the surface level. But how can we take what we're seeing at the surface level as information to be able to punch deeper?

In that scenario of the woman who suddenly obsessing over her parents, we need to walk it back below the surface and read between the lines, or that woman who suddenly stopped coming to church. Just like we were talking about a moment ago, when people understand, when we work with them at the root level, it automatically changes everything else.

Now switching a little bit into life coach gear. We talked about how there are physiological changes. We briefly hit that there's also mental, emotional, and spiritual change when we go through trauma. But the best that I can articulate, what happens is in those moments when something happens and we are like trying to reconcile it and piece it together, Satan and his little henchmen, they know that we're weak. So that's when they rush in, and they're like, "Well, you know why this happened to you? It's because you're not good enough. It's because you're unworthy. It's because you're not smart enough," or whatever, variation and mutation.

One of our trainers this week said something that just really resonated with me. He said, "I have experienced, therefore, I believe." In a situation of trauma, we've had an experience that leaves us very vulnerable if we aren't conscious and aware to what's going on at a belief level. So then, when we fast forward and we have unresolved trauma, when something happens in real-time that's simply an experience, because of what we've been through, we can pick up on those thoughts of Satan and his little henchmen like, "Oh, my gosh, you totally..."

Here's an example at our training. We're doing this dance circle, and I totally lost my balance. And that's all. That was the experience. I lost my balance as I went in the middle to dance and I fell over. But if I have unresolved trauma, then maybe it's telling me, "You're such an idiot. You're such a loser. How could you?" So these thoughts start going because of these beliefs that I have that I'm somehow unworthy or less than. Then if we are unaware at that level of our thoughts, then it will come out as emotions. And if we are unaware of the emotions, then it comes out as actions and behaviors.

For that scenario of a woman who is suddenly obsessing over her appearance, wouldn't that make sense? If you're trying to read between the lines and below the surface, because of the trauma that she's been [00:50:00] through, say that maybe she picked up that "I'm responsible for others." And so she's thinking that she can control her husband's addiction, and the fear that that stirring in her. So now she's taking action to be like, "Yeah, I just need to fix my physical appearance and then he won't have that addiction." Does that make sense?

Or the scenario of the sister who stops coming to church. Now granted like we were just talking a moment ago, there is no like, "Okay, bishop, if they stop coming to church, it's because of this." No. It's going to have to be something that you gently work with because every individual is going to have a different reason. But say that woman went through betrayal trauma and she picked up the belief that her covenants are with her husband rather than God. Now, she's going to church every week, and she's thinking like, "I have no covenants because my husband broke his." And can you hear the pain and the loss and the grief? So that could lead to the action of "You know what? I'm out of here?" So hopefully those examples help to describe what's going on here.

Kurt: What I pick up, Katy is the gist of is that it's easy to sort of see what's on the surface when there's so much going on underneath, that they may take actions, either the husband or the wife, and they seem odd. But you just really have to be patient with it and realize that there's some things happening between the lines here that maybe you can't see quite yet, right?

Katy: Yes. You've hit on it. I think the only thing I would add is that is where our power to influence life is at this root level. Anything else is fully in their agency. They're going to have their own actions and behaviors that they're responsible for, their own emotions, their own thoughts. They've been through the trauma, so we can't change that. But this is where our power

to influence others lies is prayerfully and being guided by the Spirit. And because we've established the safe relationship, then we expect that they will be willing to be vulnerable with us so that we can hold their hand and walk it back to this root level. Then we are working at this root level in a very tailored way, which we'll talk a little bit more about. So yes, you are reflecting that back.

Then let's look at principle sticks. I don't want to say a lot about this, but I feel like it ties together so well. And it's that we would encourage the individual to take a personal inventory. Now the new version of the partners and spouses LDS Addiction Recovery Program no longer has an inventory. So you would have to go to The Healing Through Christ, or the SA Lifeline to get this. Or maybe even in 30 seconds, I can give you a good enough instruction that you feel like you could take this and pray about how to make it their own as we're working with individuals.

But what we're doing when we're taking an inventory - here I chose this picture, because my husband does a lot with inventory at work. He has a business degree with supply chain emphasis - we're tracking our inventory. We want to know what's in our warehouse. So if we sit down and take this inventory and look at what beliefs we have, maybe we're like, "Man, I realize that I've got this belief that because I've been through betrayal trauma, therefore, dot dot dot." The truth is that the things that happened to me or the things that I do or I say that does not change my word.

There's a book by Virginia Hinckley Pearce...Ooh, I said that now I can't think of the title. But she calls it belief boxes. If we have some lies, well, we all have lies, when we find the lies and the half-truth in our belief boxes, those are the ones that are troublesome. Because as we're living life real-time, those are the ones that are going to kick out the funky stuff and make us be weaker exerting our will when those thoughts come in to reinforce the interpretation of the experience that we're having.

So I would highly recommend encouraging the women that you work with to at least look at this, because that's all that it is, is it's an opportunity to run it through our belief boxes and to make the connections that, "You know, for me, when I go down a certain thought pattern, I tend to overeat, or I tend to turn to social media or etc." It's just helping us to connect it. Do you have anything on this principle or can we move on?

Kurt: I would just add that this is why making counseling or one of the many resources that a leader could have is that counseling opportunity. [00:55:01] Good counselor that's familiar with this because this is really where a counselor tells us sitting down or something and really dissecting the thoughts and habits and the lies so that they can understand it and hopefully figure out a way to move past it or manage it.

Katy: Yes, thank you. I'm so glad you pointed that out because I didn't make that connection. I did my first inventory when I was working through the 12 Step program. But I had to do another inventory in our lifestyle program. Since then I've done a number of other big inventories, and then just constantly that tune-up and fine-tuning. But if I had not had the support, this is mental, emotional realm. This isn't something that as you're saying, like, "Okay, Bishop, you're in charge of overseeing this." No.

But be aware that if a woman goes through and does this, can you see how much better her experience is if she goes through and works at this root level? Now piggybacking that into principle 7, look at the opportunity that you have as a leader, and again, even as a friend or family member to support this rummaging process in as much truth as possible - founded on doctrines and Principles.

So Principle number 7, bringing the individual to Jesus Christ. We hit on this really briefly when I was showing you the care package that we give out in our stake. When we go through trauma, like we talked about, we're picking up on those beliefs which can cause us a lot of fear, to be like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm not good enough. Oh, my gosh, look, my husband has this addiction because I'm not physically attractive, or I'm a nagging wife."

When we have that level of intense fear being brought up, the tendency is like, "Oh, my gosh, I don't want to deal with it." We want to check out. We want to numb out. We want to be distracted. So can you see how crucial this can be as somebody seeking to support an individual going through the betrayal trauma, that you know this consciously, that we can reroute those tendencies to come up with our own coping mechanisms or like meet shift, hold it together survive efforts, and totally reroute that to Christ? A couple of verses that are my favorite. Oh, I skipped a slide, didn't I? The connection.

Kurt: I'm not sure. Katy: Can I mention that? Kurt: Oh, yeah. Katy: Let me mention it because I'm thinking about it and I might not be in a sec. There is a course that I just came across in the past month or so. It's called Connections. There you go. Thank you, sir. The website at the top, connexionsclassroom.com, you can go and check it out. Jodi Hildebrand is the one who created this. She has a podcast and episode number one of five gives more details about the courses that she offers. There's three different courses for individuals. And it goes even deeper into what we were talking a moment ago about working at that root level and really sorting through to find the truth rather than the lies. As a bishop, this is

phenomenal. It's only a $200 course. It is so well done. So I would highly, highly encourage you to make sure that the couples that you are working with know about this resource.

Then there's a separate course that Jodi created for clergy, and it's free. So if you would like information on that, then you would email [email protected]. Again, I highly recommend this. This is so worth your time. Thank you for your patience.

Kurt: You're doing great. Katy: Back to abiding in Christ. Principle number 7, bringing people to Christ. This is from Jeremiah 2:13. Christ says, "For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water." I see so much myself having gone through the betrayal trauma there. That I'm not only turning away from Christ, but I'm turning towards these makeshift. I'm trying to hold water with these broken pots, which the crazy thing about turning to distracting behaviors is they work. They make us feel better. They really do. You know that tub of Ben & Jerry's ice cream or that Netflix binge, they do.

The trick, though, is that they don't make us feel better long term and lasting, and very often they come with side effects and consequences that are not desirable. So if we can help reroute that [01:00:00] tendency to plug it into Christ. There's a number of other verses. I thought of Ephesians 3:17, where it talks about how Christ wants a place in our heart. I thought of John 15, "I'm divine; without me, you can do nothing."

We need women to understand this. That Christ is their only hope, and he is their constant power source.

As they are navigating the painful and frustrating and individually unique experience that they're having, the only way they're going to get through it is if they can take Christ with them. And he will be with them. Think about our sacrament prayers, right? That His Spirit can always be with us. And that symbolism of taking that bread and that water in us.

Christ does not just want to be a friend that we're like, "Hey, so I'm catching up with you. I haven't talked to you for a week," or like, "Oh, I'm going to do my scripture study and my prayer. So I am doing this formal sit down quiet time." Which we need to do. But Christ wants to be the kind of friend that he's with us when we're having a trauma response or like a total meltdown, or like, "I feel crazy. And I don't even know why." He wants to be our constant companion. And he can if you allow him.

If you'll go to the next slide, Kurt, I included information about a course that I took. This is from [01:01:36] Jassy Whiteman [SP]. She was actually in my ward - the ward that we moved into

two years before Mark relapsed. She taught Gospel and Doctrine at the time. I feel like my Heavenly Father reached me through Jassy was one of the people. But right now she has a course called Satisfied that is free for the next few weeks. I went through the original version, and it's all about learning to abide in Christ.

She focuses on food. But if food is not what we tend to turn to when we're trying to get out of betrayal trauma, then we would just insert our distraction of choice. So that is phenomenal. I checked with her before this interview, what the price will be in October, and she's planning to only put it $20. I think it's an eight-week course if I'm remembering. Six or eight. It is just phenomenal. So again, please tell your women about this, because Jassy has the personal experience of turning to food as a distraction. So she's coming from that place of her own experience and can walk the individuals masterfully through to figure out how abiding in Christ applies to the person. Anything on this Kurt, before we move on?

Kurt: No. This is good. Again, going back to that image, I love that you use this image because again, it's so easy to get in that mode, where "Okay, we're going to fix you, fix your trauma through these resources. We're going to do it." But in reality, what you're doing just like this example in the scriptures is that they didn't know how to get this individual that needed Christ. It was very difficult. So they built this makeshift elevator to get in there. So what you're doing as leaders, you're building that elevator, the platform to get them to Christ through these resources, and then he'll do the healing. But we just have to get them there and remove the lies and help them see clearly through these resources so they can get the help.

Katy: You're spot on. I picture for me, my priesthood leaders, I guess I want this to come out carefully. I know I can go directly to my Heavenly Father for personal revelation. And I'm not saying I don't have access to my Heavenly Father and savior without my priesthood leader. But at that time, when I was first starting this process, I was so fragile. For me, I felt like it was like my priesthood leaders were holding my savior's hand, they reached out and grabbed mine, and then brought me closer to him gradually and gradually until I can grab his hand myself. So you're spot on, we cannot fix them. We can't. We are ambassadors for Christ as it says in the New Testament. So thank you.

Principle number 8 is creating a shift in insight. You remember me talking a moment ago about my teacher this week saying, "I have experience, therefore I believe?" Well, it's true on the opposite end. That the whole point of getting down to that root level and examining what's below the surface, reading between the lines so we can trace the roots down to the very bottom is so that the individual can then partner with their Heavenly Father through their Savior, be [01:05:00] guided by the Spirit. Sometimes maybe you will be the tool for that, right? Sometimes

maybe you will feel inspired to say, "Okay, read this passage of Scripture or go home and do this assignment, go have an experience, is what is required in order to heal from trauma."

Now, I acknowledge in my professional work as a yoga instructor, as a brain wellness specialist, there are a number of experiences that we can have that can help us to consolidate this trauma and reframe it. It's not that we can pretend that the trauma didn't happen, but we're able to integrate it and accept it. And maybe not even necessarily be grateful for it for a very long time, but at least acknowledge that this is part of my story.

Something really incredible to me is realizing that we don't have to work at...I'm trying to think how to word this. It doesn't have to be as tedious and mechanical as maybe that sounded a moment ago. You have to go look at your actions, and then, "What was I feeling before I did that or said that? Oh, well, I was feeling angry. Well, why was I feeling angry? What were my thoughts? Oh, well, what's the belief, and what's the traumatic event that created that belief?" We don't have to do it on that level.

The quickest way to reach that belief level that I know of is through the body. The amazing thing to me is that there are so many bodily experiences built into our gospel. Here's a couple that I came up with, and maybe you can think of some. But I was thinking about, for me, when I have experiences with the Holy Ghost, that's a bodily experience for me. Or studies show that when we pray, our brainwaves slow down. So here we're having this physiological shift because of our efforts to act in our faith.

I also was thinking about The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood Section 84, 33, the renewing of our minds in our body. I guess, from my experience, I think something that Mark and I did that at this point is still unique, and I hope to see more of that in future is I've alluded to this, I feel like, this whole interview. We didn't just say, "Okay, cool, we're going to 12 Step, and that's it." We've beamed at my trauma and his addiction from like 12 different angles all at the same time. Because it's all the same work. We have to get down to this root level. And it's a long term process.

What I found for me is the more that I was working at this root level, the less and less I would kick into trauma. Then when I would go into trauma like that, it was an invitation for me to be like, "Okay, let me see if I can break this down and see why I was reacting that way." In the meantime, I was gathering more and more tools. So it is super, super rare for me to go into trauma now eight years later. If I do, it's typically not to the depths that it was, and I am most of the time extremely conscious that it's happened. It's just a matter of I need to reach for light in the right way to unlock that and to heal that.

I have an experience, therefore I believe. In order to heal from trauma, they are going to need experiences that can create that belief. Now I would take it one step further. Thinking of Alma 32, our faith becomes dormant. So because we've had an experience, we have little literally been able to uproot that troublesome lie at the belief level. Rather than just mowing it over and trying to white knuckle our trauma and make it look pretty, we uproot it and we replace it with truth. I am a child of God. Again, like we said, there's nothing that can change my value. I am a good wife. I'm an awesome person. The addiction is not my fault. Again, this is going to be individual.

I loved one of the things that one of our trainers said this week. He talked about how I'm responsible for my own healing, which I am. But when we rely on - there's a Sanskrit word in yoga for community - when I rely on my sangha, my community, then I'm able. Like we said before, that's when the miracle shows up. So the bulk of this work is going to be hers to do but you can be sensitive and supportive of that work so that she can rely on her communities, whether that's 12 Step or therapy or you as a [01:10:00] bishop or friend to be able to have the strength that she needs to make these shifts take place. Any thoughts on this? Are you ready for the last few principles?

Kurt: Yeah, let's hit them. Katy: Number 9, super, super brief. Supporting a couple's formal disclosure. I really don't want to run the rabbit over where Geoff Steurer had that whole interview on this. I think maybe just to take 30 seconds and endorse it with my whole heart. We had that disclosure like I said, seven years into our marriage where Mark just kind of vomited on me. He called and then was like, "Hey, I went to a strip club last night." And I'm like, "Whoa."

But then, as we got into life star and worked with the professionals, about 10 or 11 months later, we had our formal disclosure. It was huge for me to have it all laid out, and to have that full transparency. I feel like it gave me a choice. So I would just pose like, how can we expect a wife to want to stay married if she doesn't even realize what she's doing? Again, not something that you yourself would undertake as a friend, or even a leader, but to be aware to encourage that because it does create much better outcomes for marriages. Any thoughts on that?

Kurt: Now, this is like somebody who hasn't dealt with this type of addiction so closely other than being a bishop, where I just made a mess of things now that I realized this. But this interview with Geoff, you can go back [unintelligible 01:11:41] watch it, but it is pivotal as far as this disclosure process.

Katy: And not only that the disclosure happens, but the details of it both on the addicts and that they are coming and they're willing, and they're prepared, not only to see themselves but to hold the wife in their trauma and their reaction. Then on the wife's end, that she's gathering support so

that when she has this full disclosure, she has what she needs to process and heal. So yes, thank you.

Last principle. Again, this is just briefly hitting on. But we are remembering that the work and the choices that we're making as we're interacting with one spouse directly affects the other. From personal experience, I really appreciated...In our situation, my husband at the time, Mark was suicidal, and so they didn't dare do a formal disciplinary council. I so appreciated. My Bishop pulled me in and he's like, "Katy, I've worried about you more than anything else in this situation, because I worried that if we didn't do the formal disciplinary counseling, because we're afraid of his mental health, and that just kind of pushing him over, and he really isn't." And it's true.

At that point, when he was informally disfellowshiped, he was not at a repentant point. He still felt so justified and was still in problematic mode. But my bishop was like, "I'm worried that if we didn't do that that it would send the message to you that what he did was okay." He just really validated that to me.

I think it can go both ways. If a bishop is being too soft and not holding the addict's feet to the fire and holding them accountable, that's painful for the wife. Or if they're being too harsh on one or the other of the spouses, it directly affects others. And so just making sure that we're taking that into account as we're interacting with one spouse, it's going to come back around and affect the other. We have a mantle, we have the Spirit to guide us. Our Heavenly Father cares about his children, and so He will guide us.

That's Principle number 10, Kurt, you have anything to add on that or anything else in your view?

Kurt: This is a great principle to end on because it's not a person that's the problem or the addiction that's the problem. It's a bundle of things that you are analyzing and trying to be aware of so that you can get the resources at the right place. It's easy if you've kept yourself sort of zooming in on a certain person or certain behavior activity. Like you have to step back and sort things down that way.

Katy: I love that. Look at the big picture. I love that. I included a slide for people to find me. Do you want that?

Kurt: It's up. You're late. No going back. Katy: On the right side, this is a screenshot. I recently started an Instagram account. It's Project Lemonade for Women. This is a project that I started two years ago, but I've been pretty intimidated by the prompting to start it [01:15:00] myself. So I've kept it pretty underground. If

you want to connect with me as directly as possible on these concepts and principles that we were talking about today, I'd recommend that. Or there's also if you don't have Instagram, projectlemonadeforwomen.blogspot.com.

My whole intent with it is to encourage women who've been through betrayal trauma to get on their knees and ask God what they can do within their circle of influence to help make the path smoother for other women. There are women who have shared their story, there are women who have guests posted on my blog. The really amazing thing about the position that I'm in is because Mark and I are public, we can help give voice to individuals and couples who still need anonymity. So some of the stories are published anonymously. And so far, all of the guests' blog posts have been anonymous. Obviously, I would have to know who they are, but nobody else needs to know who they are.

There also are some beginnings of ideas. One really cool one was in my stake. One day I opened up my program in Sacrament meeting, there was a whole full-page insert written by a woman who nobody knew who she was except the Stake President. She had talked about her experience with betrayal trauma and encouraged individuals to reach out for resources. So things like that that hopefully will inspire women to realize how very much need them in order to turn the tide of the PTSD incidents.

Then on the left, if you're interested in connecting with me professionally or if you have questions that you feel like you want to ask outside of this, my website is there again. I do the brain wellness and the yoga therapy classes. I'm on Facebook. I'm on Instagram. There's my email.

Kurt: That's good. These are great services. I'm glad you've mentioned yoga throughout this. My wife's a big fan of yoga. And you don't just do yoga for exercise reason, but there's a therapeutic element, especially for those individuals who have experienced trauma, right?

Katy: Yes. And in that vein, in the studies that have been done on medications, Yoga has been found to be more effective in treating PTSD than any medications that have ever been studied. I'm strong and I'm flexible. But what drew me to yoga was initially the mental, emotional. But in layman's terms, physiologically, we are shifting the electromagnetic field. The brain is electromagnetic.

So as we shift our electromagnetic field, our nervous system is a little vague. It's hard to pinpoint that. Like we can't necessarily feel that, but an evidence of what's going on in our nervous system is actually our thoughts. So here we've talked about the belief level from a mental like conscious standpoint, but we can also tackle the belief from a physiological standpoint, that our brain is being quieted and soothed and calm down. So when Satan and his little henchmen are throwing

those lies at us, we're not going to act like a magnet to lock onto those as likely because we're also working on a physiological level. Hopefully, that wasn't too brain geeky, Kurt too much.

Kurt: That's good. Katy: Yes, yoga is a leading treatment for trauma for PTSD. Kurt: Cool. Well, just to wrap up, what's your final encouragement you'd have for leaders and loved ones out there that are more concerned about not only maybe an individual who've experienced the level of addiction but also those that's around that individual?

Katy: I think the biggest thing I want you to know is that there's hope. That I am living proof of that. I look pretty normal right now, right, Kurt?

Kurt: You do, yeah. Katy: But there was a time when I literally, like every few hours was just going into trauma, trauma, trauma. I didn't say in this interview, but we were to the point where Mark and I had a lawyer hired. I was going to meet with the lawyer in 24 hours and we were going to go through divorce. I thought my marriage was dead. So I don't say that lightly. I am a living testament of the reality of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ can change people.

It's been such a privilege to watch my husband, Mark to go from the point that he was to the compassionate and loyal and present person that he is eight years later, having worked at that root level. And so I just testify that there's hope, and that hope is in Ch