Vol. 727 Wednesday No. 141 27 April 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Higher Education: ERASMUS Scheme Oak Processionary Moth Schools: Curriculum and PSHE Reviews Iraq: Camp Ashraf Postal Services Bill Order of Consideration Motion Pensions Bill [HL] Third Reading Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill Second Reading

Grand Committee Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) Order 2011 Debated Charities (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Order 2011 Debated Companies Act 2006 (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Order 2011 Debated Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 (Time Limit for Appeals) (Amendment) Regulations 2011 Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 (Armed Forces and Reserve Forces Compensation Scheme) (Rights of Appeal) Regulations 2011 Debated

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

£3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. The bound volumes also will be sent to those Peers who similarly notify their wish to receive them. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201011/ldhansrd/index/110427.html

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords £3·50 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords £525 WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords £6 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440; Lords £255 Index: Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted.

THE INDEX to each Bound Volume of House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN, compiled by the House of Commons, gives details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscription: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage.

© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2011, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU; email: [email protected] 105 Higher Education: ERASMUS Scheme[27 APRIL 2011] Higher Education: ERASMUS Scheme 106

there has not been an increase in the proportion of the House of Lords cohort going in, there has been an increase in overall numbers. We will certainly make a decision as soon as Wednesday, 27 April 2011. possible. 3pm Lord Willis of Knaresborough: My Lords, we welcome Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Gloucester. the Government’s support for ERASMUS, but although we have spent £3.1 billion on that programme over six Lord Turner of Ecchinswell took the oath. years few of our students take part in it. A significant number of students with disabilities do not get places Higher Education: ERASMUS Scheme at all and apprentices in advanced apprenticeships Question cannot operate there either. Only one in four students who come from a STEM background can get a place 3.06 pm on an ERASMUS course. Is it not time that the Minister, in negotiating the new ERASMUS programme, Asked By Baroness Coussins renegotiated the terms of this very useful but ill focused To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they programme? will maintain the fee waiver after 2012 for students spending a year of their university degree courses Lord Henley: My noble friend is right to highlight abroad through the ERASMUS scheme; and what the importance of the ERASMUS programme. I can plans they have to extend the waiver to students give him an assurance that my right honourable friend going outside the European Union. David Willetts has written recently to the appropriate Commissioner about where ERASMUS should go in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the next seven-year cycle. His more detailed points Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs about dealing with disabled students and others is (Lord Henley): My Lords, the Higher Education Funding another matter, but we will certainly do what we can to Council for England has made the ERASMUS fee encourage ERASMUS and its development. That is waiver available for the 2011-12 academic year for why my right honourable friend has written to the students at English institutions which participate in appropriate Commissioner. the ERASMUS programme. No decisions have been made on the fee waiver for future years. An announcement Lord McFall of Alcluith: My Lords, the Minister will be made in due course. The ERASMUS programme will be aware that since the start of this programme in is limited to exchanges within the European Union 1987 more than 2 million young people have benefited and five other countries so the question of extending and for many of them it was the first time they had the fee waiver to students going outside these countries lived abroad and studied, so it is a cultural phenomenon. does not arise. If this programme is stopped or curtailed it will be a shattering blow to the Government’s social mobility Baroness Coussins: I thank the Minister for that agenda. Will the noble Lord keep that in mind when reply and declare an interest as chair of the All-Party making that decision? Group on Modern Languages. Will the Minister accept that there needs to be more long-term certainty about Lord Henley: My Lords, I agree with virtually the fee waiver because the quality and even the survival everything that the noble Lord said. No one is talking of modern languages degrees will be threatened if about stopping ERASMUS; we are talking about universities cannot afford to offer a year abroad or if encouraging the Union to make changes to ERASMUS only well-off students can afford to take one, even as it develops. The specific question about fee waivers though the experience and skill that they acquire is is a detailed question for Her Majesty’s Government what employers say they want? Would the Government and one that colleagues in the Department for Business, be prepared to consider a package of measures to Innovation and Skills will consider and make the encourage linguists and others by increasing the proportion appropriate decision in due course. of the fees covered by the waiver by freezing the loan interest during the year abroad and offering financial incentives to universities to run programmes in Europe Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, is the noble Lord and world wide? aware that the limiting of fee remission to those aged up to 25 studying for a first full level 2 and specified Lord Henley: My Lords, I agree with the noble level 3 qualification will negatively impact on disabled Baroness that there is a need for long-term certainty people seeking apprenticeships, because they can take and I say that as the parent of a child who is about to rather longer? Will he agree to look at the matter make decisions about universities as he completes his again? AS year. Obviously that is something that the Government will do and I hope that colleagues will be able to make Lord Henley: My Lords, again, that would be a a decision as soon as is appropriate. We also understand matter for the European Union to look at. Again, I the point underlying the noble Baroness’s Question will pass that question on to my right honourable about the importance of improving and encouraging friend and I am sure that it is one that he will want to the teaching of foreign languages. We are glad that take up with the Commissioner in his further consultations there has been an increase over previous years. Although about the future development of ERASMUS. 107 Higher Education: ERASMUS Scheme[LORDS] Oak Processionary Moth 108

Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, ERASMUS now been set aside. Can he tell us how containment is is an important scheme to gain valuable work experience going to work; and can he give assurances that areas and language skills. Applicants to that scheme are not of oak woodland will not have to be closed to the the only group who would like a fee waiver from 2012, public, as they have been in Holland and Germany, as more than 70 per cent of universities will be charging because of the impact of this moth? the maximum fees of £9,000 per year. Has the Minister seen the outcome of the High Fliers Research study Lord Henley: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble published today, which finds that more than half of friend for all she has said. She is quite right in, first, current final year students would not have gone to underlining the public health issues and, secondly, university if they had faced fees of £9,000? Given underlining the fact that some oak woodland areas those findings and the consequences to the Exchequer might have to be removed from public access, as has of higher than budgeted fees, how will the Government happened in other parts of the EU, although we hope square extending access with deficit reduction? Is it that it will not happen here. time for another pause to go to listen to the public? The reason we have moved from eradication to containment is based on scientific advice that eradication Lord Henley: My Lords, the noble Lord takes us within the five boroughs in south-west London that slightly beyond the Question on the Order Paper. We the noble Baroness is aware of is not possible. We have on a number of occasions debated the whole managed to eradicate the outbreaks in Leeds and question of the reforms that we are bringing in; we will Sheffield but we got on to those much earlier. We did have further debates on them in due course, and I look not get on to this outbreak, which started in the forward to taking part in those debates. This Question summer of 2006, early enough and therefore it will be is about ERASMUS, which is a much narrower point very difficult to get rid of it. However, we are very than the one that the noble Lord is asking about. grateful for all the work being done by Forest Research, Fera and by Kew Gardens, which also has an interest Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, can as it is right in the middle of the area. my noble friend tell me where the ERASMUS project is physically based, because the European Union Lord Clark of Windermere: My Lords, will the Commission, with uncommon felicity, managed to Minister confirm that this moth affects other trees as put the EUREKA programme in the Rue Archimède? well as oak? In view of the fact that Defra has required the Forestry Commission and Forest Research to reduce Lord Henley: Oh dear. I am afraid that I cannot their budgets by 25 per cent, with a similar reduction answer my noble friend’s question as to where it is in their staff, is the noble Lord absolutely confident physically based. The best answer would probably be that we have the resources available to tackle this that I think that it is based in Brussels, but if it is not I tree-related disease plus the many others that are will write to my noble friend to let him know. coming in from overseas at this time?

Lord Henley: My Lords, the first point to make is Oak Processionary Moth that we do not know that this disease has come from Question overseas; we do not know where it has come from. Secondly, my advice is that it affects oaks, but I will 3.13 pm write to the noble Lord if it affects other trees as well. Asked by Baroness Kramer Thirdly, there is no question of budgetary constraints affecting the fight against this particular menace. I To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans have spoken to the Forestry Commission today and it they have to eradicate oak processionary moth. was perfectly happy to assure me that they had all the resources it needed to fight the problems of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, processionary moth. The simple problem is that there Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs are an awful lot of them in a confined area and there (Lord Henley): My Lords, Forest Research has moved are an awful lot of oaks around, and finding all the from a strategy of eradication to one of containment eggs, larvae and so on is very difficult indeed. Money in the west London outbreak area. Outside this, a is not in question. protected zone has been declared, within which regular surveys will be conducted to ensure that any new Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, my noble friend in infestations are eradicated. his last supplementary answer said that the Government do not know where this moth originated from. Does Baroness Kramer: My Lords, I must declare an he know whether the moth affects oaks in other countries interest as a patron of the Friends of Richmond Park. more seriously than it does here? Richmond Park will spend £50,000 or more this year to remove nests of that moth in order that the public Lord Henley: My Lords, there are bad outbreaks in can continue to use the park. other countries. My noble friend Lady Kramer referred The Minister will be aware that the health hazards to the problems in the Netherlands. As I said, we of the oak processionary moth caterpillar are such cannot be certain as to how it got into the country. It is that to remove the nests people have to be in full as likely as not that it came in from imports via the chemical contamination gear, including breathing plant trade, but we simply do not know. We will do apparatus. Therefore, he will understand that I am what we can to continue the fight, but, as I said, it will very distressed that the eradication programme has be one of containment rather than eradication. 109 Oak Processionary Moth[27 APRIL 2011] Schools: Curriculum and PSHE Reviews 110

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, the Minister seemed Lord Henley: My Lords, one is looking out for a to imply that the moth had not been found because of moth. It is called the oak processionary moth that a lack of surveyance and that it had been in the woods exists on oak trees. It is called the oak processionary in south London since 2006. Can he assure the House moth because it processes up oak trees in a processionary that there will be enough feet on the ground to survey manner, whereupon it does what moths want to do. trees generally in the country to ensure that we do not Being more serious, I should make it clear that Forest have outbreaks of disease that are so devastating? Research at the Forestry Commission is offering advice, particularly in the south-west London area, on Lord Henley: My Lords, however many feet we have identification. It is not just our officials and those on the ground, I do not think it would be possible for from the Forestry Commission who will be identifying any government agency to cover the entire country in the moth—we want the public to be able to report on terms of the number of oaks there are and the number outbreaks as well. of oak processionary moths that might be processing around the country. All I am saying is that that particular Schools: Curriculum and PSHE Reviews outbreak was discovered in the summer of 2006. The Question Government moved as quickly as they could, but obviously they could not get on top of it. They managed 3.22 pm to get on top of the outbreaks in Leeds and Sheffield Asked By Baroness Massey of Darwen and we have found no more two years after the attempt To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress to eradicate them. they have made with their reviews of the school curriculum and of personal, social and health Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, would my education. noble friend take note of very recent research which indicates that there is a green health element not just The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for in oak woods but in all our hardwoods? They are Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My Lords, since we uniquely beneficial to many people suffering from launched our review of the national curriculum in psychological and mental ill health. Might this not January, we have undertaken a call for evidence and therefore be an urgent issue that should be addressed are currently analysing the responses. We will announce more specifically than may be the case at present? our proposals on the issues covered by the first phase of the review by early next year. So far as PSHE is Lord Henley: My Lords, that is another question, concerned, we have been considering the scope and but I agree that trees are good for us. That is why we timing of the review announced in the schools White want, if possible, to eradicate or contain the oak Paper, and we will announce further details shortly. processionary moth so that our oaks can flourish. Baroness Massey of Darwen: I thank the Minister Baroness Quin: My Lords, at the moment the problem for that response and for holding a meeting with me has largely been limited to London, although I echo yesterday, which was very useful. Given that parents the concerns of the noble Baroness and the way in and children have called for personal, social and health which she raised them. I understand that there has education in the curriculum as part of their life skills also been an outbreak in Pangbourne in Berkshire, education, does the Minister agree that we already which is worrying because of the number of oak trees have a body of knowledge about this subject and a lot found in the wider rural area of that part of the of skills? Is it not time to stop reviewing and to do country. Can the Minister give us some reassurance some implementation? that everything is being done to tackle that outbreak? Lord Hill of Oareford: I am grateful to the noble Furthermore, on resources, given that the end of April Baroness for the time she gave yesterday to discussing and the beginning of May is the crucial time of year PSHE with me and for the advice she gave to my for effective spraying, can I again ask the Minister to officials. I hope that she will carry on doing that as the assure us that the resources are available to undertake review continues. I know from our meeting how impatient such spraying work at the present time? the noble Baroness is to make progress and I agree with her that a lot of information is available. However, Lord Henley: My Lords, of course I am aware of we want to hold a proper review and to co-ordinate it the outbreak in Pangbourne, which took place in with the separate review into the national curriculum 2010. It is too early to say whether we have eradicated that is also going on. But her admonition to get a the oak processionary moth because we cannot really move on is ringing in my ears. talk about eradication until we have seen two years without any eggs or larvae around. We will report Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, in relation to the back in 2012 with the good news on that, if we have it. co-ordination just mentioned by the Minister, will the I shall repeat again what I said before: there are no Government bear in mind the beneficial effects on problems with budgetary constraints in terms of fighting children’s achievement in other subjects across the this problem. curriculum of high-quality PSHE courses? It gives them the skills with which to learn, as well as the Baroness Walmsley: My Lords— self-confidence, the ability to undertake teamwork and all the other qualities needed in order to become Lord Walpole: My Lords, I doubt if the Minister effective learners across the whole of the rest of the knows the answer, but I would like to know what we curriculum. That is why it is so important that these are actually looking out for. two reviews are properly linked together. 111 Schools: Curriculum and PSHE Reviews[LORDS] Iraq: Camp Ashraf 112

Lord Hill of Oareford: I agree with my noble friend. is not compulsory in the way that some elements of I know how knowledgeable and passionate she is in the national curriculum will be, and they demonstrate this area, like the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of different things. Darwen. I will continue to look to my noble friend’s The desire to introduce the English Baccalaureate advice as we go forward on this. quickly was driven by our concern that too many children, particularly children from poor backgrounds, Lord Flight: My Lords, are the Government considering are being denied the opportunity to study academically including financial literacy as an obligatory element of rigorous subjects. I am sure the noble Baroness will the national curriculum? It seems to me that it is an know how wide the discrepancy is between children on essential skill for citizens going forward in this country. free school meals and children not on free school meals in terms of their current study of what some Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, generally we are people would call rigorous academic subjects. Four keen to ensure that the national curriculum is as little per cent of children on free school meals study the overloaded as possible because we believe that one English Baccalaureate subjects as opposed to 17 per should make space in the school day for important cent on non-free school meals. I do not think that is subjects such as financial literacy. PSHE would be acceptable. Highlighting the issue and making people another good example. That is why we are trying to realise that there are these discrepancies will help give simplify and reduce the burden of the national curriculum, children from poor backgrounds, in particular, the to leave schools more discretion and time to decide on opportunity to have academic subjects taught to them, the subjects they want to teach and the best and most which in turn will help them get into universities, appropriate way to do so, knowing their children. which I know is a goal we all share. Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: How much consideration has been given to helping teachers and, therefore, Iraq: Camp Ashraf children understand their emotional responses in Question bereavement, given that we know that 10 per cent of 3.30 pm school children are bereaved of either a parent, sibling or close friend and that those who do not have support Asked By Lord Eden of Winton become victims of bullying and have a higher instance To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action of depression, suicide, alcoholism, teenage pregnancy, they are taking in the light of recent developments and so on? in Camp Ashraf.

Lord Hill of Oareford: Again, my Lords, I agree Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, following the with those points. Part of what one would want to unfortunate events on 8 April at Camp Ashraf, Foreign look at in the review is what support children need and Office Minister Burt released a statement calling on therefore what support teachers need to make sure the Government of Iraq to cease violent operations in those children have the appropriate knowledge and Camp Ashraf immediately. British embassy officials, skills. including our ambassador in Baghdad, have raised concerns about the incident with the Iraqi President, Baroness Tonge: My Lords, have the Government Prime Minister, Foreign Minister and Minister of considered what effect their policies to introduce free Human Rights. We have made it clear to the Iraqi schools and particularly schools of different religious authorities that we deplore any loss of life and have denominations will have on personal and social education, urged them to set up an independent investigation into particularly education on sexual and reproductive health? the incident.

Lord Hill of Oareford: I am not sure that any of Lord Eden of Winton: My Lords, I thank my noble those developments would have an impact in the way friend for his Answer, but will he acknowledge that for that my noble friend implies. The requirements on many years noble Lords in all parts of this House have schools, whether they are free schools, academies or warned of an impending disaster at Camp Ashraf? maintained schools, are not changed in any regard by Tragically, and in the most brutal way, that has now any of the reviews that are currently being carried out. happened. In the light of the recent slaughter of unarmed civilians by Iraqi forces, is it not clear that Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, does the Maliki’s word counts for nothing, that he is in hock to Minister agree that once again Michael Gove has Iran and that he is intent on eliminating Ashraf by jumped the gun by changing the school league tables whatever means? In those circumstances, is it not to reflect the new English Baccalaureate subjects before wholly reprehensible that the Americans have virtually the curriculum review, which might have recognised walked by on the other side? Surely there is only one the vital importance of PSHE, has been completed? solution remaining: for an international force or UN-mandated body to intervene immediately in Ashraf Lord Hill of Oareford: I do not, my Lords. There to provide essential security and much-needed medical are two separate processes at work. The national assistance. curriculum review is rightly a process that we are working through to look at which subjects should be Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, those are some in the national curriculum. The English Baccalaureate very ambitious demands. Perhaps I should explain to review was to provide us with a snapshot of what is the House that on 8 April Iraqi police and armed already going on in schools. The English Baccalaureate forces entered Camp Ashraf, which is an extensive 113 Iraq: Camp Ashraf[27 APRIL 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] 114 camp in an area that was given to the MEK, or the Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, will the PMOI—whatever you wish to call it—by Saddam Minister accept that the term “unfortunate circumstance” Hussein some 25 years ago, and in the course of that misleadingly and euphemistically represents what has confrontation some 30-plus people were killed and happened in Camp Ashraf? Does he accept that what 70-plus people injured. Since then the United Nations happened there was a massacre—wholesale and Assistance Mission for Iraq has visited the camp, as indiscriminate slaughter? Will the Government consider has a US medical team. We are continuing to discuss the need to send a delegation from this House, or from with UNAMI and the Iraqi Government what else can Parliament in general, to Camp Ashraf? Furthermore, be done to assist in this situation. will they consider sending Nouri al-Maliki and his Camp Ashraf dispersal committee to court at The Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: Is the Minister aware Hague? that the Iraqis’ claims that some of the 35 Ashraf residents massacred by Iraqi troops and some of the Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, there is a good 350 wounded were shot by the PMOI leadership are deal of violence all the way across the Middle East at totally untrue, and that the interior ministry conducted present, with which the United Nations is actively a search for weapons and explosives at the camp in engaged. I have to reiterate that Iraq is now a sovereign April last year but found nothing more than 23 decaying state; that the United Kingdom Government are doing empty packets of firecrackers? In the light of this their best to investigate what has happened; that this is further assault on these defenceless refugees, will the a long-standing confrontation going back to the change Minister urge the Prime Minister to make a personal of government in 2003 in Iraq; and that it is not as phone call to Mr Maliki to demand the immediate simple to resolve as the noble Lord suggests. withdrawal of his offensive forces, and to ask the UN to take over responsibility for the safety and security Arrangement of Business of residents and to restore proper access to medical Announcement treatment and supplies to those injured in this recent attack? 3.38 pm Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, later today Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I was not we will have the Second Reading of the Police Reform aware of allegations that some of the casualties had and Social Responsibility Bill. There are 50 speakers been shot by their own side—I simply had not heard signed up to take part in that Second Reading. Subject that. We recognise that this is a very complicated to progress on the first business today, Third Reading situation. The Iraqi Government are now the Government of the Pensions Bill, if Back-Bench contributions on of a sovereign state. the police Bill were to be kept to approximately six minutes, the House should then be able to rise this evening at around the target rising time of 10 o’clock. Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: They have responsibilities, This advisory time for Back-Benchers excludes the though. Minister’s opening of 20 minutes and the Opposition’s opening and winding-up of 15 minutes. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Of course they have responsibilities, but this is in effect an extraterritorial Postal Services Bill enclave in Iraq and there are some very large issues. Order of Consideration Motion We accept as a Government that, in time, Camp Ashraf should close. The question is how that is 3.38 pm negotiated with all sides. Moved By Lord De Mauley Lord Avebury: My noble friend will be aware that That the amendments for the Report stage be the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi marshalled and considered in the following order: Pillay, has called for a full, impartial and independent Clauses 1 to 8, Schedule 1, Clauses 9 and 10, inquiry, which you are not going to get from the Iraqi Schedule 2, Clauses 11 to 37, Schedule 3, Clauses Government. Will my noble friend therefore urge the 38 to 41, Schedule 4, Clauses 42 to 50, Schedule 5, Foreign Secretary to initiate a resolution in the UN Clause 51, Schedule 6, Clause 52, Schedule 7, Clause Security Council calling on the Secretary-General to 53, Schedule 8, Clauses 54 to 64, Schedule 9, Clauses appoint such an inquiry and also demanding that the 65 to 71, Schedules 10 and 11, Clauses 72 to 89, 1,000 Iraqi troops occupying a third of Camp Ashraf Schedule 12, Clauses 90 and 91. be immediately withdrawn? Motion agreed.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the fact that Iraqi troops are occupying a third of Camp Ashraf is Pensions Bill [HL] itself evidence that Camp Ashraf is a very extensive Third Reading area. As I understand it, that is part of the issue that the Iraqi Government are concerned with—they wish 3.39 pm to reduce the area currently occupied by Camp Ashraf. Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I have it in The UN is actively engaged in this. I am told that UN command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint mission members visit Camp Ashraf virtually every the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of week. the purport of the Pensions Bill, has consented to 115 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] 116

[BARONESS ANELAY OF ST JOHNS] S2P.That mostly capped men’s higher earnings-related place her interests, so far as they are affected by the pension entitlement with a scheme of more generous Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of redistribution to lower wage earners, mainly women. the Bill. To me, the Green Paper is very good news, and I congratulate the Minister and his right honourable friend in the other place, Mr Steve Webb, on achieving Amendment 1 it in the face of, I suspect, the agnosticism of HMT at Moved by Baroness Hollis of Heigham best, the scepticism of HMT at least, and the hostility of HMT at worst. 1: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— “Single tier or universal state pensions The new single pension is important in a couple of ways. I am raising it now because we did not have the (1) Before the end of June 2016, the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a report containing an assessment of the opportunity to raise it on Report, given that the Green consequences of its provisions on any proposals for the introduction Paper just happened to be published the day after of a single tier or universal state pension. Report. There is agreement around the House about (2) For the avoidance of doubt, this section shall come into the desirability of NEST. It will effectively reintroduce force on the day on which this Act is passed.” an earnings-related pension, so to speak, to top up the new single pension, performing the same function but in a very different way from the old SERPS. However, Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, the amendment as we all know, NEST is risky, particularly for low-earning in my name would require the Secretary of State to women. If they do not have a partner at retirement introduce a report on the single state pension by June whose pension income lifts them both off pension 2016, before Part 1 of the Bill, which refers to the credit, they find that their savings in NEST are severely delay in the state pension age for women, is commenced. depleted by the operation of the pension credit taper. I would also ask the House to ignore the word “universal” There is no way that someone at 30 can predict whether on this amendment— it is worth saving in NEST if it depends on what partnership and household arrangements they have Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I ask that colleagues 30 or 40 years down the line. carry out the normal courteous procedure. Those who Pension credit has done a superb job of tackling the are remaining in the Chamber wish to hear from the poverty of existing pensioners. It means that pensioners noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. Could those who are are no more or no less likely to be poor than any other leaving do so rather quietly? group in society. However, it has added to the risk of future pensioners who seek to avoid poverty by building Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I thank the Chief savings. The single state pension cuts through all of Whip. The delay in women’s retirement age so that, for that. It means that your pension income from NEST the most unfortunate, retirement is delayed by two will depend not on your household but on your own years, was discussed and determined, narrowly, on income, which is a far safer, clearer and cleaner path Report. No one, I think, was happy about the bunching for savers. With a new pension, every penny you normally effect, including the Minister. It is the consequence of save in NEST will return to you as your pension. It has insisting, despite the coalition agreeing to the contrary, built out the risk from saving; it pays to save. That is that the state pension age for women would rise to why, on all sides of the House, we welcome NEST, and 66 by 2020. I remind the House that the coalition I am sure will welcome the new single pension. Hence agreement that women’s state pension age would not this amendment. begin to rise to 66 until after 2020 was not an election pledge that was broken in the name of coalition dealings 3.45 pm and agreement but was part of the post-election coalition This amendment seeks to ensure that the new single agreement from both government parties in the full pension is locked into the pension structure of the knowledge of the costs and circumstances. To break future so that NEST in particular is safe. It in no way that joint, agreed, published, post-election pledge within seeks to reopen an issue that this House has already the year is, in my view, pretty disreputable. However, decided—although I wish we could—on the indecent that is where we now are, regrettably. I hope very much bunching of women’s state pension age so that some that the other place will try to smooth out the bunching women have to wait two years longer than they could effect, which narrowly this House allowed to continue. reasonably expect for a state pension to be paid to Since Report—I think on the day after—we have them. Instead, what the amendment tries to do is to had the long-awaited Green Paper on the new single build into the Bill a commitment on the new single state pension. I am sure that noble Lords greatly pension before the commencement of the accelerated welcome it, as I certainly do. It proposes bringing the raising of the state pension age, which so many of us basic state pension, the state second pension and in this House deplored on Report. It also seeks to pension credit into one pool, allowing the payment of ensure that, at a time when NEST is completing its a single pension based on national insurance contributions transitional stage in 2016 and with the 2017 review of a few pounds above pension credit level. This would NEST in sight, it is securely underpinned by the state both tackle pensioner poverty, especially among women, platform. Hence, the amendment contains the words and encourage saving. Existing accrued rights would “June 2016”. I cannot, even if I wanted to, make the be honoured, but possible future accrued rights would one conditional on the other. In any case, I do not be capped in much the same way as when this House wish to suggest that it is acceptable to delay women’s decided—rightly, in my view—to replace SERPS with state pension age because those recipients will get a 117 Pensions Bill [HL][27 APRIL 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] 118 higher pension from the state. I do not accept any such area might repay further consideration. I have seen trade-off. I believe that the Minister is probably unhappy some correspondence subsequent to our debates on about the bunching as proposed by the Government Report which would have suggested, for example, that on the grounds of equity, as a majority in this House a minor adjustment in the entitlement for the male probably are. That bunching is simply wrong and pension above the age of 65 might be a way to finance unfair, and I hope that the other place will have a smoother progression for women without a net cost another go at sorting it out. It is over to them now. to the Treasury. I hope that Ministers have not shut What would be even worse is for women to have their minds to this area, although I appreciate that it is their pension age postponed as the Bill currently proposes difficult and that there will always be losers as well as and then to find that they were still drawing only the gainers. However, it would be inappropriate to go existing state pension, with possible vague rights to a further into that. state second pension and pension credit very unclear. Perhaps I would be on more confident and more Under the Companion’s rules, I cannot fully introduce positive ground in saying, secondly, that I share the new material, even though this pivotal Green Paper noble Baroness’s enthusiasm for the single state pension, was produced one day after Report so that we could which I believe would be a considerable social advance. not take it into discussion then. I have had to produce It would help to make pensions and saving for them, this very mild amendment, which states that the Secretary including private pensions and NEST, worth while. of State should lay a report on the new state pension That must be an objective for us all. It would also be before June 2016 changes to state pension retirement an important advance in simplifying the system. We age come into effect. It is an attempt, in other words, could not discuss this previously because of the timings to ensure that the new single pension does not get of government proposals and I appreciate that pensions’ kicked into the long grass some time down the line, as evolution and development is an incremental business. I suspect HMT wishes it to be, while the cost-cutting However, I would like to share with the House some delays to women’s pensions continue on their merry, considerations which the Minister, even if he does not savage, way, and while saving in the NEST auto-enrolment consent to a formal review—I know that those things scheme continues to seem precarious. are not easy for Ministers to do—may at least wish to I am well aware that a consultation exercise is ponder in moving through the consultation process on currently under way and is to be completed in June, the state second pension and in looking at the interaction and no Government can give a full commitment before with NEST. that exercise has been completed. However, from my With due respect to the noble Baroness, I will not knowledge of those who have been campaigning for confine my remarks specifically to women’s issues such a single state pension over the years, criticism will because some wider issues are also appropriate to come primarily from one group and one group only— consider. First, it is in the nature of pensions, particularly those who will find themselves excluded from it because where they are guaranteed or organised by the state, to they are already pensioners. However, we all hope reflect long-term commitments. Any mid-term corrective that, as the economic situation improves, that too may action, even if benignly intended—and this is so—may be revisited, perhaps with the older pensioners—those therefore inevitably subvert arrangements which have over 80 and 85—enjoying the new single pension already been made. I cite as an example that when we along with newcomers into pensions. The two groups reduced the qualifying years to 30, with a view to over time may meet; I very much hope so. trying to do something about women’s pensions in the This is a tidying-up, Third Reading, probing past, it had the converse disadvantage of nullifying the amendment, by which we can take note of the benefits of some individuals who had made contributions Government’s intentions in this respect, but it is really above that period in order to safeguard their entitlement, a chance for the Minister to ensure that the single state on the rules as they stood and in good faith. pension is locked into the new pensions structure. It At the same time, if we moved to a single state will to some extent mitigate the worst effects of bunching, pension, I would find it personally important to retain but that still needs to be sorted out in the other place, an element of the contributory principle. Again, a and it would ensure the safety of NEST. In the hope post-Bill development, as it were, has been the issue of that the Minister can confirm that, subject to the whether there should be some association either of results of the consultation exercise, it is the secure administration or even of coverage between the tax intention of the Government to proceed down this and national insurance systems. Paying for something path, I beg to move. and getting something back is both morally and prudentially wise, although there is a huge amount of Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, I congratulate further work to do on that area. There are also potential the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis of Heigham, on her differential impacts, as the noble Baroness has already ingenuity in inserting this into the delicate business of touched on, from the change not just on women but amendments at Third Reading, of which I have, with for those with interrupted or overlapping working modesty, rather less experience than her. I also associate patterns. For example, there are people who have myself with the spirit of her intentions in this matter spent time abroad or who may have saved for a private at least in two respects. second pension at different times. All that is complicated First, many of us across the House felt some and requires a good deal of careful thinking through. dissatisfaction or sadness that we were not able to At some stage—the Minister can help us by giving resolve some of the issues of rough justice connected some indication of this—we need therefore to take a with the bunching of women’s pensions. While I appreciate dispassionate and careful look at all aspects of the that we cannot reopen that in this House now, that proposed changes as they now come out. This should 119 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] 120

[LORD BOSWELL OF AYNHO] the current Government wish to pursue may not emerge be designed to minimise any retrospective unfairness for a little while, but like all noble Lords who have and to look prospectively to minimise any moral hazard, spoken I will be interested to hear today’s thinking. where people may feel that they lose when they have Indeed, we as a party need to consider the outcome of acted in good faith; but remembering at all times as we this consultation, but see the thrust of the benefit of a do that—and pursue the hard cases, which we must—that single-tier flat-rate pension. A number of considerations there is a grand prize to follow in simplicity and in will doubtless be brought to bear, particularly the providing a good platform for additional, personal voice of the Treasury. I think that it was the noble private saving. That must be our overriding objective. Lord, Lord Boswell, who made the point that we need to reflect on these in terms of long-term issues—pensions Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I congratulate are about long-term issues—and, I suggest, of the the noble Baroness on her amendment, which shows need to drive consensus where we can. The Minister us that there are very few people who know as much also referred to the contributory principle, and that is about pensions as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis; we very much the same position that my noble friend is in, recognise her ingenuity, certainly, but above all her which is why she prefers the single state pension to a knowledge and her belief in getting the right and universal pension that would not rely on such provision. honourable thing for all pensioners. I too am extremely sad that we were not able to convince this House to 4pm amend the proposals affecting those women turning 57 in March and April this year who were going to be If the proposition emerges that a single-tier pension required to work an extra two years, a group of is to be introduced, it would clearly need primary women who had far fewer opportunities for flexible legislation, and this process would cover the ramifications working than women have today. I believe that an of existing pension legislation and, doubtless, much attempt in the other place will be made to return a else. If legislation does not emerge by 2016, however, more equitable answer to this problem, and I hope notwithstanding the proposal for such a pension, then that it would be well received in this House. I too my noble friend’s amendment would come into play. support the idea of the single state pension. It would How might the Bill have consequences for single-tier go quite a long way towards a more equitable set-up pensions? It would be difficult to argue that there will for both men and women into the future. I would like be cost ramifications, because the Green Paper makes to end by very much hoping that we will see a better it clear that any proposals for a single-tier pension outcome in many respects than we had first thought must be cost-neutral—that is, for all the fanfare, there when looking at this Bill. is to be no new money beyond existing allocations. Conversely, it would seem perverse to argue that the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, my noble manifest unfairness in the changes to the state pension friend Lady Hollis has been an initiator of thinking age can be justified as necessary for the introduction about, and a passionate advocate of, a single state of a new state pension system, as no additional funding pension for a number of years. She is truly a leader of is to be allowed. The state pension age changes are the pack on this issue. As she explained, the nature of funding the triple lock but you can spend that money her amendment this afternoon is simply that it makes only once. a request that the Secretary of State be required to lay One of the ramifications of a single-tier pension—this a report before Parliament before the end of June was touched on by my noble friend—is that there 2016, which of course is the start of the timeframe for could be a significant reduction in means-tested benefits the acceleration of equalisation of the state pension for pensioners, and the demise of the pension credit in age under the Bill. That would assess the consequences particular. This would undermine some of the of the Bill on any proposals for the introduction of Government’s argument in the pays-to-save debate. such a pension. This does not seem an unreasonable Even though we do not accept the rationale for the request. trigger in auto-enrolment, the Government’s main From time to time during our consideration of this justification for the trigger would fall away. Bill, there have been references to proposals for a Like my noble friend, I am supportive of the single-tier single-tier pension and the Minister acknowledged pension but as things stand we need to understand its this himself at Report, when he referred to being full ramifications, the long-term implications and the challenged by his noble friend Lord German to say distribution effect if it is going to be cost-neutral more about the single-tier pension. The Minister duly overall. This will doubtless emerge over the next three obliged by referring to a Green Paper, which was due months in particular. to be published a few days later. At points during our debates on the Bill I wondered The Green Paper effectively consults on two if some noble Lords were looking for cover or justification propositions. One is accelerating the existing reforms for the state pension age changes in the single-tier so that the state pension evolves into a two-tier flat-rate pension. Whatever the benefits of such a pension—they structure more quickly; and the second, as my noble could be considerable—I doubt whether those noble friend advocates, is a single-tier flat-rate pension set Lords can get the comfort that they seek for supporting above the level of the pension credit standard minimum the state pension ages as provided in the Bill at the guarantee. The Green Paper, incidentally, also consults moment. on proposals for automatically uprating the state pension I support my noble friend’s amendment. It seeks to age, but we are not focusing on that this afternoon. achieve something important. In particular, it keeps a The consultation is just under way and not due to be focus on the progress of the single state pension, completed until 24 June 2011. Which option, if any, which, if achievable, would be a considerable gain. 121 Pensions Bill [HL][27 APRIL 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] 122

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, cannot give a conclusion to the consultation. I assure Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My the noble Baroness that, should the Government decide Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the to bring forward proposals to reform the state pension opportunity to spend a little time today on our proposals system, we would as a matter of course publish a full for reforming the state pension. She has been instrumental, assessment of impacts, including those on women, as other noble Lords have pointed out, in the move for alongside any reform proposals. better pension provision for those left out of the I remind the House that we published an impact benefits of the heyday of the occupational pension assessment, including a gender, race and disability and the earnings-related state counterpart. The Pensions impact assessment, of our proposals to increase the Act 2007, with its enormous boost for women through state pension age first as part of the White Paper the reduction in qualifying years for basic state pension setting out our response to the call for evidence and and the increasing coverage of the state second pension, again alongside the publication of the Bill when it first could have been the final push for equal treatment in entered Parliament. Those assessments will be further state provision. amended and revised as necessary for republication Even that was not good enough, though. In March when the Bill enters the Commons and yet again once last year, a week before the 2007 Act started to deliver the Bill has completed its passage through Parliament. for women, the noble Baroness launched the pamphlet I can therefore assure the House that, were the The New State Pension: A Call to All Parties, which Government to publish a White Paper on reform, we pushed for further radical change. Very skilfully, she would be no less diligent in providing detailed information got my honourable friend, the Minister responsible, to on the impacts of any policy changes by gender, contribute a chapter to that. It proposed a new type of ethnicity and a range of other factors. In short, there state pension with a near-universal amount, set above will be plenty of opportunity for noble Lords, as well the level of the means test and made affordable by as Members of another place, to scrutinise any proposals paying the pension to new pensioners only. Her main for reform and their likely impacts, should the Government motivation, as ever, was to deliver an adequate state decide to proceed with reform. pension for women who, because of low pay and career I emphasise that the proposals that we have set out breaks, have historically lost out in pension provision. in the Green Paper do not depend on increasing the Just over a year later, the Government published state pension age. As I said in our debates on Clause 1, their proposals for improving state provision, A State the rise in the state pension age must be brought Pension for the 21st Century. That Green Paper confronts forward because the sharp upward revision in life the big issue of how to respond to a decline in private expectancy projections has overtaken the legislated saving at a time of increasing life expectancy. It describes timetable. The revised timetable would be necessary how means-testing, with all the damage that it can do with or without the reforms on which we are consulting. to private saving, pervades the state system. It describes We have already discussed at some length the impact the great complexity of the state system. Bluntly, for of our proposed changes to the pension age timetable, most people the system is simply impenetrable. Crucially, in particular on those cohorts of women who face an it fails to answer the most obvious of all questions increase in their pension age of up to two years. A from potential private savers: is it worth it? How much number of noble Lords have emphasised that point will I get from the state when I retire anyway? As and I do not propose to rerun that debate. However, I importantly, it describes the extent of inequality in the draw attention to the fact that a key objective of the state system—how women, on average, get £40 a week reforms, alongside simplifying the system and rewarding less state pension than men and how they are more those who save, is to look at how the state pension likely to live in poverty as pensioners. could be made fairer for groups, including women. The Green Paper describes two options for reform The noble Baroness’s amendment seeks to ensure to respond to the challenges that the pension system that we consider the impact of the state pension age faces. The first option would simplify the state second changes in conjunction with our proposals for reforming pension. It would strip out the earnings-related part of the state pension scheme. As I said, we are only at the the second pension, leaving just a flat-rate amount—the consultation stage on our reform proposals but I can same pension for all workers and people who are assure the House that although, as I hope I have made credited into the system for caring and other good clear, these are not interdependent changes, we would reasons. The second, more radical, option would effectively undertake such an assessment if these reforms are fold the basic and second pensions into one to create a taken forward. I trust that I have been able to assure simple single-tier pension, set above the level of the noble Lords that the statutory duty that the noble guarantee credit. This option, which is clearly similar Baroness’s amendment would impose is not necessary to the one that the noble Baroness proposed a little and, furthermore, is somewhat premature. We will more than a year ago, would mean that by 2020 no less have many opportunities to debate what to do with than 90 per cent of pensioners—men and women—would any reform proposals as they go through the whole retire on a pension above the guarantee credit. process. I therefore urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment. The Green Paper, as I said, was published earlier this month and the consultation is currently under way. As the noble Baroness appreciates, changes of the Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I thank all magnitude proposed in the Green Paper can be progressed those who have taken part around the House, including only by listening to the views of all those with an the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, the noble Baroness, interest. It is far too early in the process for the Lady Howe, and my noble friend for their warm Government to come to a view on the way ahead, so I support for the principle of the amendment. If the 123 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] 124

[BARONESS HOLLIS OF HEIGHAM] are encouraged to go down the path that they should. I comments in this House are anything to go by, the can assure the noble Lord, Lord Freud, that if he Minister can be assured of the reception that his comes forward with such legislation in this House or Green Paper will receive outside the House. I am the other place he will have wide and enthusiastic confident that it will be greeted with warm support. support. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. I very much take the point made by the noble Lord, Amendment 1 withdrawn. Lord Boswell, that we have to see pensions as part of a structure. However, such a new single state pension is 4.15 pm the keystone for any reform not just of state pensions but of occupational pensions that do not generate a Clause 10 : Certification that alternative to quality savings trap for those on lower earnings. That is why requirement is satisfied noble Lords all round the House are so delighted to see the possibility of that keystone finally coming into place. The noble Lord said that we should minimise Amendment 2 retrospective unfairness and avoid future moral hazard. Moved by Lord Freud Those words are well taken; they are wise words for us 2: Clause 10, page 9, leave out lines 2 to 13 and insert— to absorb. ““(2A) Alternative requirements must be such that, assuming all jobholders to be active members of schemes to which this My noble friend Lord McKenzie is absolutely right section applies, for at least 90% of jobholders— that, with the advent of a new single state pension, the issue of the threshold of enrolment into NEST disappears. (a) employer contributions, and It does not matter whether you end up with £3,000, (b) total contributions, £30,000 or £300,000 of savings; you keep the lot if the would be likely to be no less if every scheme satisfied an new single state pension is in place. Therefore, you do alternative requirement applicable to it than if every not have to legislate to avoid the moral hazard of scheme satisfied the relevant quality requirement. low-paid women earning less than £7,500 a year going (2B) In subsection (2A)— “alternative requirement” means a requirement prescribed into NEST because their savings may not be worth under subsection (2)(b); having, given the effect of pension credit. As NEST “employer contributions”, in relation to an active member of will be reviewed in 2017, which many of us are already a scheme, means the amount of contributions that have to be paid looking forward to, I very much hope that we shall be under the scheme in respect of the member by the employer; able to revisit this issue then as, with the new single “total contributions”, in relation to an active member of a pension in place, a threshold of enrolment will simply scheme, means the total amount of contributions that have to be not be necessary. However modest the savings, they paid under the scheme in respect of the member by the employer will be worth having and worth encouraging, so that and by the member. even the poorest of people can go into retirement with (2C) The Secretary of State— a cushion against the adversities of old age. (a) must apply the test in subsection (2A) when regulations under subsection (2)(b) are first made, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Freud, for his (b) must carry out subsequent reviews of whether the test generous comments on the background to the single continues to be satisfied. pension and to his officials for their work in bringing A review under paragraph (b) must be carried out during the Green Paper forward. My only regret is that the 2017, and after that each review must be completed no Green Paper came too late for Report and that Third more than three years after the completion of the Reading has come too early for the results of the previous one.”” consultation. None the less, we are trying to wedge this in between the two. I believe that the new single Lord Freud: My Lords, I am pleased to be returning pension will transform the pension landscape and to the topic of certification and even more so to be should receive huge support. I was delighted to hear moving a government amendment that I believe will from the Minister that there was no interdependence address the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, between the deferring of the state pension age—in and the noble Baroness, Lady Drake. I understand other words, the raising of the state pension age to those concerns to be twofold: first, on the scope of 66—and the funding or costing of the Green Paper. the Secretary of State’s powers and, secondly, on the That is key. It gives me hope that he and his honourable risk of unscrupulous employers manipulating the friend Steve Webb will be seeking to smooth the certification test. bunching effect whereby some women have a much The aims of this amendment are: first, to strengthen rougher deal than others. Some wait nearly an extra the regulatory framework in which the alternative year for their pensions and some wait for nearly two certification model will operate by imposing tougher years. We all recognise that that is—in the words of preconditions before regulations can be introduced; the noble Lord, Lord Boswell—rough justice. I would and, secondly, to introduce an ongoing requirement go further than that: it is unacceptable. I and, I am for the Secretary of State to keep the test under review. sure, the Minister hope that a decent solution can be At the outset, before publishing any regulations, the found to that in the other place. Secretary of State must be confident that at least However, I am, in a way, using the amendment to do 90 per cent of jobholders will receive the same level of what we would have done had the Green Paper been contributions under the certification test that they introduced by a Statement, which was not the case. We would have received if their scheme had satisfied the are delighted to have the Green Paper in place. We wish relevant quality requirement. This is more demanding the consultation good speed. We hope that the results than the previous requirement, which referred to, will come through in such a way that the Government “a majority of the individual relevant jobholders”. 125 Pensions Bill [HL][27 APRIL 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] 126

In addition, the Secretary of State must periodically scheme on which the Government are consulting appears review the evidence base of the test. This is expected to already to be drawn within the parameters of the involve analysing the dataset from the Annual Survey amendment. Perhaps the Minister will update us on of Hours and Earnings, known as ASHE. These are that, and in particular on the phasing of employer the data that underpinned the development of the contributions. Presumably such phasing now will have certification model and other relevant data on the rate to be consistent with the amendment. Notwithstanding of pension contributions required by schemes. This is the constraining of the Secretary of State’s powers, we tougher than the previous test, which relied on a should not lose sight of the fact that the Bill still snapshot of the data at the point of publishing regulations. allows the prospect of up to 10 per cent of jobholders If, as a result of review, we detect undesirable trends in missing out on contributions to which they would pay and reward packages that suggest that more otherwise have been entitled. individuals than expected are receiving lower than We stated from the outset that we support the minimum contributions, the Secretary of State can Government and congratulate them on their decision intervene to strengthen or repeal the test. to proceed with auto-enrolment and with NEST. I do After the publication of the regulations, the review so again today. However, we do not do this with will take place first in 2017 and subsequently at least unconstrained joy, because a number of provisions in every three years. The review will form part of our the Bill erode the intended coverage of the arrangements. ongoing evaluation strategy. Its publication will be Some employees might miss out because of the considered in the context of the evaluation of the certification process under Clause 10; the three-month reforms. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, will note waiting period in Clause 6 could reduce an individual’s that we have pared back the Secretary of State’s power accumulated years of savings by nearly three years; as far as we reasonably can, based on the available the introduction of the earnings trigger in Clause 5, as evidence. In view of this, I hope that the noble Lord currently set, would exclude some 600,000 individuals; will be reassured that the Secretary of State’s powers and the broad uprating powers in Clause 8 would are proportionate to the task in hand. For clarity, I allow the Government to achieve their aspiration of a should add that the requirements fall to the Secretary trigger of £10,190. As my noble friend Lady Drake of State and not to employers using the test. pointed out on Report, this would exclude a further The reconfigured regulation-making power aligns 800,000 workers each year, three-quarters of whom more closely with our dataset from the annual survey would be women. from ASHE, which we believe to be robust, representative Collectively, the measures hit the low paid and and reliable. Thus, the Secretary of State will be able those working part-time, especially women. They run to deliver the certification model welcomed by employers counter to the overarching objective of auto-enrolment, and key stakeholders at the same time as affording which is to enable low and moderate earners to save. scheme members the appropriate level of protection. Should the trigger reach the level of £10,000, the A supplementary delegated powers memorandum has reforms would begin seriously to undermine their been sent to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory original intent. All of this compounds the central Reform Committee to reflect the tighter constraints unfairness in the Bill, which is the disproportionate on the Secretary of State’s regulation-making power. way in which women are affected by the raising of the I say in conclusion that we have ended up with the state pension age. As we have had no further comfort outcome broadly envisaged by the amendments that from the Minister on this issue today, the parliamentary the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the noble Baroness, campaign now moves to the other place. Lady Drake, tabled on Report. I thank both noble I conclude by thanking the Minister for the concession Lords for the expertise that they brought to bear on that is embodied in the amendment, and his team for the issue. The Bill has been improved by their intervention their efforts in enabling the matter to be dealt with at and I am grateful for it. I beg to move. Third Reading. They have removed the potential for severe diminution of coverage via the certification Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I thank the process, which is to be welcomed. We look forward to noble Lord, Lord Freud, for his introduction and the reviews of how the alternative requirement is explanation of the amendment, and for his generous working in practice. As this is the last time I will speak attribution. As he explained, when making regulations on the Bill, I will take the opportunity to thank the about the alternative certification test, the Secretary of Minister for his open approach to handling this important State is required now to be satisfied that 90 per cent of piece of legislation, and the Bill team for the way that individuals eligible for automatic enrolment will receive they have stepped up to the mark and been helpful to contributions to the level they would have received the Opposition as well as to the Minister. had the scheme satisfied the relevant quality requirement. The Secretary of State is required to be so satisfied Lord Freud: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, when regulations are first made and at subsequent Lord McKenzie, for that response. He had, as ever, a reviews. We support the amendments because they couple of questions—that is rather a low number for represent a significant tightening of the Secretary of him. I shall do my best to summarise my answers. State’s regulation-making powers. On phasing and parameters, I can assure the noble As we detailed, we support a certification process Lord that it does work. Phasing will be consistent with which gives employers an incentive to retain existing the amendment, which probably does not surprise good-quality schemes, provided that it does not undermine him. At the moment the figures are comfortably within the opportunity for relevant employees to benefit from the parameters, so there is a safety margin. Clearly, if auto-enrolment. We acknowledge that the certification they fall out of those parameters, it will be due to 127 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Police Reform 128

[LORD FREUD] Police Reform and Social Responsibility changes that we need to look at. The certification Bill model will be reviewed in 2017 when the phasing of the contributions has ended. Second Reading As a result of this amendment the preconditions 4.30 pm before the Secretary of State to make regulations will Moved by Baroness Neville-Jones be a better check and balance on his powers due to two factors—that the percentage of job holders that That the Bill be read a second time. must potentially receive at least minimum contributions The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness is high, at least 90 per cent; and that the strength of Neville-Jones): My Lords, at its heart, the Police Reform the alternative certification requirements will be and Social Responsibility Bill reflects the coalition’s periodically reviewed. As there might be concern that determination to transfer power away from Whitehall this will add to the burden on employers, I should and return it to communities and professionals. Both repeat for absolute clarity that the requirements fall to parties of this coalition Government support the democratic the Secretary of State, not to employers, using the test. reform of police authorities. Our chosen model of Although the government proposal will be more reform—to make the police more accountable through demanding for the Secretary of State, it should maintain oversight by a directly elected individual who will be the right balance between flexibility for employers and subject to strict checks and balances by locally elected safeguards for individuals. I am very pleased that we representatives—was expressly set out in the coalition have been able to reach common ground on this issue. agreement. In taking forward this reform, we will swap In my turn, I must commend the close scrutiny to bureaucratic control for democratic accountability,replacing which the Bill as a whole has been subject in your police authorities with directly elected commissioners Lordships’House.Thequalityof thedebatehasdemonstrated in all forces in England and Wales, save for the City of noble Lords’accomplishment and high level of expertise. London, which is an exception. Once again, this House has performed its role with the Some have argued that there is a need to delay these distinction and spirit that are expected from it. reforms. We do not agree. These reforms cannot wait. While I have the Floor I must take the opportunity We do not have the luxury of delaying change when to thank in particular those noble Lords who have HMIC, the inspectorate, concluded in its policing in made a significant contribution to the Bill’s journey austerity report that only four police authorities inspected through this House, notably, of course, the noble Lord, by it were judged to have performed well in both Lord McKenzie, in his role as opposition spokesman, setting strategic direction and ensuring value for money and the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, for her accomplished for their police force. Effective performance in both performance at the Dispatch Box. I also thank my these functions is essential. Given the state of public noble friends Lord German, Lord Stoneham and Lord finances in this country, it is also urgent. Moreover, Boswell, my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay, the accountability of the police should be to the the noble Baronesses, Lady Greengross, Lady Hollis people and not, as it has increasingly become, towards and Lady Turner, and the noble and learned Lord, Whitehall. I shall return to that later in my remarks. Lord Falconer, for their participation in an active and The second fundamental principle to policing in often challenging debate. Finally, I thank my noble this country is operational independence: freedom friend Lady Garden for her proficiency in covering a from political interference. I am aware that some in number of clauses in the Bill. I also thank the Bill team, this House have been concerned that in altering the who have supported the Bill throughout this process arrangements for the governance of the police, this with the right material at the right time. I am very principle, which the Government regard as sacrosanct, grateful to them. might be impaired. There is no necessary connection, The Bill now passes over to the other place, and a but as this is a matter of such importance to us all in number of noble Lords have presaged a little of the this House, I intend to deal with it straight away. activity that they expect to see there on particular It is important to note that under the Police Act 1996, matters. I am just grateful to get rid of any prospect of chief constables had direction and control over their having to look at PUCODIs again. forces and that they continue to do so under Clause 2. Let me reiterate the principles of the Bill which I set Moreover, under the Bill, they will be constituted as out on Second Reading, as they are still absolutely corporations sole and will have greater powers than applicable. We need a fair, sustainable and balanced now to appoint their immediate subordinates. To reassure system that adequately and accurately reflects the those who remain anxious about the issue of operational society we live in. Saving for retirement should not be independence, the Policing Minister undertook during a thought which occurs only when you first spot that debate in the other place to develop a protocol in grey hair. It should be a process that begins when you consultation with ACPO, the Association of Police enter the labour market as an adult and continues over Authorities and the Association of Police Authority the years. The Bill does just that while not losing sight Chief Executives, setting out the distinct roles and of the key tenet of providing a decent income for the powers of Ministers, chief constables, PCCs and other individual in retirement. bodies in the new policing landscape. That work is well under way and the aim is to have the draft available for Amendment 2 agreed. this House at Committee stage. A privilege amendment was made. As noble Lords will be well aware, our reforms of the ways in which the police are held to account are Bill passed and sent to the Commons. the most comprehensive for 50 years. We have not 129 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 130 made the changes lightly; nor, as I indicated, have we At the same time, there are key national and ignored feedback on ways in which our proposals international responsibilities in policing to which the could be improved. We are grateful for the input from PCCs must make strong contributions. To ensure this ACPO, the Association of Police Authorities and the the national Government, who will refocus their role Association of Police Authority Chief Executives, as away from micromanaging local policing towards well as individual forces and all those who submitted exercising a better grip on key national issues, have a evidence to the Bill Committee. proper role to play. Our discussions with stakeholders have helped us The Bill provides for the Home Secretary to issue a better to ensure that the Bill achieves the commitment strategic policing requirement that will inform the way in the coalition agreement to have proper checks and in which police and crime commissioners work with balances in place. I should like to say a word on this their chief officers to deliver their forces’ national and aspect. international responsibilities. There will be strong duties An argument has been put forward that police and on them to manage national threats, including through crime panels do not offer real checks and balances in collaboration. relation to police and crime commissioners and that We are determined that when these reforms begin, they are toothless, but this is far from the case. We the transition from the existing system to the new expect the relationship between the PCC and the PCP regime is as smooth and as painless as possible for to be as constructive and cooperative as possible. police forces and communities. To this end the Policing However, we are giving the PCPs the means to ensure, Minister is personally chairing a transition board made in the event of disagreement, that police and crime up of all the relevant partners and charged with delivering commissioners exercise their democratic mandates in a programme of 12 projects to ensure that there is an ways that are proportionate, effective and reasonable. effective and seamless transition to the regime of Their scrutiny powers include a veto, by a three-quarters police and crime commissioners. majority, over the police and crime commissioner’s proposed precept and his proposed candidate for chief Finally, I want to clarify the position in Wales. The constable; the ability to ask HMIC for a professional Government have respected the will of the Assembly view when the police and crime commissioner intends and amended the Bill to remove the police and crime to dismiss a chief constable; the right to review the panels from local government structures and establish draft police and crime plan and make reports and/or them as free-standing bodies, but we have done so recommendations to the police and crime commissioner without sacrificing the public scrutiny powers and who must have regard to them; the ability to require using locally elected representatives. In the Government’s the police and crime commissioners to attend the view, it is not in the interests of the people of Wales to panel to answer questions; the duty to appoint an have a different governance and scrutiny structure for acting police and crime commissioner where the police their forces when policing is reserved to Westminster and crime commissioner is incapacitated, resigns or is and to the Home Secretary. There cannot be two tiers disqualified; and responsibility for all complaints about of governance for a police service whose officers and a police and crime commissioner, although serious assets so regularly cross the regional boundary between issues must be passed to the IPCC. England and Wales in pursuit of making our communities safer and tackling crime. Those are teeth, and they will be strong safeguards against the fears of some in the House that police and I turn now to alcohol licensing. As I have already crime commissioners will act irresponsibly in office. said, the Bill will give power back to local communities The Government believe that the people of this country in policing, and it will do the same for licensing can be trusted to use the power of the ballot box decisions. Alcohol-fuelled crime and disorder is estimated wisely but we are nevertheless putting backstops in to cost the taxpayer over £8 billion per year, and last place. I should mention here that, elections apart, the year there were nearly 1 million alcohol-related violent running costs of police and crime commissioners will crimes. That is a good deal too many. The Bill will be cost-neutral. The elections themselves will cost no address these issues. Last summer, we consulted on more than £50 million—not £100 million, and not plans to overhaul the Licensing Act 2003. We received £200 million, as has been put about. We have put all over 1,000 responses, which are reflected in these our costings on the web so that all can see how we have clauses of the Bill. arrived at these figures. The Bill will allow early morning restriction orders I should like to spend a few minutes discussing each to be extended to any time between midnight and of the five areas in the Bill. The first is police and 6 am. It will give licensing authorities the power to crime commissioners, about which there is little more take swift action to tackle problem premises without to be said. Their introduction will focus policing on having to wait for a relevant representation from a what local people want, not what national Governments responsible authority, and it will lower the evidential think they want. Work has already begun to enhance hurdle for licensing authorities to make it easier for accountability across communities in England and them to refuse or revoke licences held by irresponsible Wales through providing access to detailed street-level retailers. It will allow anyone, anywhere to make crime and antisocial behaviour data. This has generated representations concerning a licensing decision, regardless extraordinary interest in the public and counters the of vicinity to a premises. It will double the maximum argument that through PCCs we are assuming a level fine for underage sales of alcohol to £20,000. It will of public interest that is not there to drive the model. allow local councils to charge a late night levy on On the contrary, this shows that the interest is present licensed premises that remain open after midnight to and requires stimulation. help pay for late night policing and other services such 131 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 132

[BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES] 4.46 pm as taxi marshals and street wardens. But let me make it clear that premises that close before the levy takes Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am grateful effect will not have to pay. to the noble Baroness for introducing the Bill. I warmly anticipate the maiden speeches of the noble Baronesses, Following an amendment in the other place, the Lady Newlove and Lady Berridge, and the noble Bill includes a provision to introduce locally set licensing Lord, Lord Blencathra. fees so that the costs of licensing authorities, in discharging their duties under the Licensing Act, can be fully The police in this country play a vital role in recovered. All of these measures show that we are underpinning our democracy. We have a long and committed to tackling alcohol-related crime and disorder proud tradition of tolerant policing which is by consent by giving more powers to local areas. of the British people and which is free of political The Government are clear that no one person or partisanship. That has always characterised the tripartite group of persons should take over Parliament Square arrangement between the Home Secretary, the police to the detriment of others. The Bill contains a tough authority and the chief constable of every force—a but proportionate package of measures to prevent balance between operational independence, local encampments, to deal with disruptive activity and to accountability and national strategic direction. give the police the necessary powers so that the space I believe that all this is at risk through the Bill, can be enjoyed by all. It will also restore the right to which will lead to the politicisation of our police peaceful protest around Parliament by repealing forces, conflict and confusion between the respective Sections 132 to 138 of the Serious Organised Crime roles of the elected police commissioner and the police and Police Act 2005. It will thus deal with encampments constable, a marginalisation of local government and not by restricting protest, but by prohibiting the erection a loss of public confidence. The Government have in and use of tents, structures, sleeping equipment and no way sought to mitigate these risks by the publication the unauthorised use of loudhailers in Parliament of a Green Paper, by pre-legislative scrutiny or even in Square. a modest way through risk assessment by Her Majesty’s I turn now to drug abuse. The Bill provides powers Inspectorate of Constabulary. Indeed, the Government to crack down on the damage caused by so-called have no mandate for this proposal, no evidence base “legal highs”. Many of us will be aware of the growing and precious little support from either the police or concern about the availability, use and potential harm the public. that they pose. The existing arrangements for bringing I find little to convince in what the noble Baroness a drug under control using the Misuse of Drugs has said to us this afternoon. She argues that the Act 1971 remain our preferred approach. The power police reform was needed because the current governance in the Bill to make year-long temporary class drug arrangements were not working and police forces looked orders will allow us to take swift action temporarily to too much upwards to the Home Office. I agree with ban harmful substances which have been specifically her that police authorities do not exactly make front-page developed to get round existing drugs legislation. There news all the time, but why should they? When the will be no possession offence for a temporary-class public think about policing and about how crime is to drug. We do not wish to criminalise anyone, particularly be tackled, their focus is not on glossy leaflets or young people, while the harms of a drug are being grandstanding by the chairman of the police authority fully assessed. We have listened to the representations but on the force and the chief constable, as it rightly of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs and ought to be. those made in the other place and we have made an Of course we should always be working to improve amendment to the Bill to consult the ACMD before the relationship between the police and the local invoking a temporary order on a statutory footing. community. The way to do it, surely, is to enhance the The Bill also allows the Home Secretary to make an arrangements through neighbourhood policing, which order on the recommendation of the advisory council the last Government introduced so successfully. We since the council is able to provide advice of its own did it in a way that respected the independence of the volition. This underlines the Government’s continued police from direct political interference and ensured commitment to independent, expert, evidence-based broad-based accountability to the police authority advice. across the whole of a police area. Finally, the Bill makes reasonable changes to the procedures for obtaining an arrest warrant for universal As for Home Office targets, which, by implication, jurisdiction offences. Universal jurisdiction is a key the noble Baroness is criticising, targets can be intrusive principle of international justice. It enables some of but the House should be in no doubt that they had a the gravest offences to be prosecuted in the UK, hugely positive impact on efforts to reduce crime. That regardless of where they have been committed. The was surely graphically illustrated by the BCS figures Government believe that the requirement to seek the on violent crime of a 50 per cent reduction from its agreement of the Director of Public Prosecutions that peak in 1995 to 2009-10. The noble Baroness was a case has a realistic chance of success is a fair and rather silent on that. proportionate measure to ensure that arrest warrants The noble Baroness talked about the transfer of are issued in a responsible fashion. The Bill is a powers to local government, but I hope that this is not package of measures, carefully balanced to tackle a signal of the Government’s intention to absolve problems in our society through restoring power to themselves of responsibility for the crime figures communities and professionals where it belongs. I beg and from the draconian cuts now taking place in to move. police budgets. She said that the cost of these elections 133 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 134 would be only £50 million, but I think that the public considered. Secondly, the proposals should have support would rather that that money was spent on front-line among the local community. We propose that a policing. referendum should be held in each police area before a What does the noble Baroness have to say to Jessica police commissioner can be introduced. We are, after de Grazia, New York’s former chief assistant district all, in the middle of a rather riveting—at least on this attorney, who came over here and said that elected side of the House—referendum and we will shortly police commissioners in England and Wales would debate the Localism Bill, which promises referenda up damage public faith in the legal system? She added: and down the country. If the Government think that a referendum is important in relation to mayors of cities, “There is always a risk of police corruption, but there is both a why on earth is it not important in relation to the higher risk and incidence when you place the police directly under the control of an elected politician”. police service and local police forces? If you ask the public which they thought was more important, I Does the noble Baroness understand that putting in suspect that many would say the effectiveness of our the place of a low-profile group of members of a police forces. I do not understand why the public are police authority a full-time politician with a party not being given a say in that matter. The third test that label seeking to justify a well-paid position is a I would apply is for the scheme to be piloted. Why not fundamental change that risks overturning a 170-year pilot this in two or three areas for, say, three years, tradition of independence? Does she really suggest evaluate it and then consider the scheme’s general that, under the current provisions of the Bill, the introduction? I certainly hope that these tests will find police commissioner will not seek to involve himself favour in your Lordships’ House. or herself in operational matters? How can that be denied when the elected police commissioner can direct There are of course other items in the Bill. The police priorities, hire and fire chief constables and take Opposition support extra licensing powers to enable on political advisers to do his or her bidding? I fear for local communities and the police to keep public order. the operational independence of chief constables and We are sympathetic to temporary banning orders for I fear for the consequences of national policing dugs offences, as proposed in the Bill, but we will requirements. What does the noble Baroness have to probe strongly the future role and membership of the say to Assistant Commissioner Yates, who in a speech advisory committee. We believe that the law on universal only five days ago to a counterterrorism conference jurisdiction should be changed to address the problem said that elected police chiefs would face difficulties in where private citizens can secure an arrest warrant trying to reconcile national counterterrorism demands even when there is no evidence for, or prospect of, a with, prosecution. However, I also reiterate the Opposition’s strong belief in the importance of universal jurisdiction. “local and more immediately obvious crime priorities”? We will certainly scrutinise the details effectively. We have been promised a memorandum of In conclusion, I return to the proposals on the understanding on the relationship between the elected police. The political independence of the police is, I commissioner and the chief constable. I hope that we believe, as important to us and our democracy as the can see that soon, but I doubt its effectiveness given independence of the courts. I have no doubt that a the levers that the elected commissioners will have single politically motivated police and crime commissioner over the chief constables. Nothing short of statutory will make it increasingly difficult to ensure that that guidelines will do. political independence is maintained. I strongly urge I would have more confidence if the proposed the Government to think again. police and crime panels had more teeth. The noble Baroness talked about strong checks and balances and 4.58 pm said that the panels were not toothless, but the Bill Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I do not know whether contains a power of veto in only two circumstances—the being bathed in sunshine is some sort of endorsement precept and the appointment of chief constables. For of what I am about to say. Not for the first time in my such a veto to operate, 75 per cent of the panel have to 20 years in this House, I would not have chosen to vote in favour. Noble Lords should remember that the start from here. “Here” is a Bill that has passed through elected police commissioner will carry a political banner the Commons—we are not the House with the democratic into that role. Seventy-five per cent is a higher threshold mandate—that will provide a new injection of democracy than Her Majesty’s Government propose for the into how England and Wales do policing. Who are we Dissolution of Parliament. Indeed, the hurdle is so to deny democracy? It is, as regards police and crime high that it may never be used. In itself, that gives rise commissioners, part of an agreed coalition programme to grave doubts about the influence that the panels will for government, and, in my book, agreements are have. As we go into Committee, we shall certainly things that you honour. I will try to uphold the best propose to strengthen the powers of these panels to traditions of this House: constructive criticism and hold the elected commissioner to account. amendments, not to wreck but to improve what comes I make it clear that we are resolutely opposed to the before us. principle of the Bill as it relates to the police I have to say that I have never been much of a fan of commissioners. I believe that at the very least we personality politics or the transfer of celebrity culture should ensure that the Government have to satisfy into complex holistic subjects such as government and three tests before the Bill is enacted. First, her Majesty’s the governance of complex organisations. We will all Inspectorate of Constabulary should undertake an have our concerns about who may want to become assessment of the impact of these proposals and the police and crime commissioners: undoubtedly party Act should not be commenced until that has been politicians and also candidates with simplistic—or I 135 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 136

[BARONESS HAMWEE] stress “we”—get it right? I believe that we are most could say, extreme—views. Many of us will have been likely to do that if we pilot the model, evaluate it, guilty, at least by association, of arguing that putting a assess what aspects of it require review, learn and police officer on every street corner will solve every produce the best, even if it takes a little longer. No problem. Will we get commissioners and candidates doubt it will be a relief to us all when we reach Part 2 prepared to convince the electorate that policing and of the Bill. budgeting for policing needs to be far more sophisticated, I welcome reducing the burden on local authorities and to say that, for instance, it is not a good idea to with respect to licensing. The changes in 2003 giving divert resources disproportionately from what is less local authorities a new role seemed appropriate then. visible to groups who shout louder than others? However, I recall concerns about their operation. We The debate around the new model started from will have to see whether this Bill, as I think it does, gets accountability and the question of who was responsible closer to the right balance of interests between those for what. Knowing what is operational when you see it who want to enjoy various events and activities and is not a substitute for trying to define it. I look forward those who may be adversely affected. Local authorities to the protocol. It is important that both the players are responsible towards both. I do not dismiss the and Parliament see a resolution to this issue before the concerns of the trade about, for instance, needing Bill progresses. stability and certainty. The late-night levy seems to me to be overly bureaucratic and insufficiently targeted, I The underlying philosophy of the new governance question the 70/30 split, and I do not think the balance model is accountability. The police and crime panels is quite right as regards conditions on temporary event have the statutory task of reviewing and scrutinising notices. To those who argue against having some commissioners. That means bringing information into restrictions and that individual licensees are responsible, the public domain, exploring it and sometimes checking I say that they may be responsible, their premises may it. The Minister tells us that the panels will have teeth; be well run, but they cannot control behaviour outside. clearly we have to explore this. I do not believe that the I live quite near a pub, and my vocabulary has been powers, as drafted, are adequate to provide the checks increased by what I hear under my bedroom window and balances required by the new framework. The some nights. term “veto” seems a misnomer. The threshold for a vote against the precept is high, and it relates only to I share the concern of many of your Lordships that the precept, not to the budget as a whole, nor to its drugs misuse needs to be regarded as a broad social component parts. The powers to secure the appearance and public health issue. We must not let tinkering with of individuals to answer questions in public and to the existing legal framework distract us from the need secure information are limited. Moreover, I am concerned for clear new thinking. that the panels will not be as representative as we The last pages of the Bill pack in a lot of content. would like. A small number of people would cover On arrest warrants, my noble friend Lord Alderdice some large and very diverse areas; and then, of course, made what I think was a very wise observation from there is Wales. his experience. Does this country not want to be thought of as somewhere people from opposing—indeed, My noble friend Lady Doocey I am sure will talk warring—sides can meet to seek progress in resolving about London. Having lived through the legislation their differences? creating the GLA and having spent some years as an There is a good deal to say on the subject of Assembly member and chair, I am quite clear that Parliament Square. I would prefer as far as possible to London should not be regarded as a testing ground rely on the public order provisions, which are of general for the rest of England and Wales. It is not an exemplar. application. Parliament Square is never going to be The arrangements have been good in part but not the best place for sandwiches and sunbathing while it perfect, and it is very different from other areas. London is simply a medium-sized traffic island, and it does us is also very different from New York, which is often no harm to be faced with protests every day. cited, even if you disagree with Jessica de Grazia. Just one difference is the city council in New York, which is That is enough from me now. In a constructive a very powerful check on the mayor. So let us judge spirit—because truly I mean that it will be—I and my the plans for England and Wales on their own merits. colleagues will, I am afraid, take quite a lot of the time of the House at the next stage. Part 1 of the Bill is largely about governance, but I will apply the “Social Responsibility” of the Bill’s Title 5.05 pm to it as well. Policing is within a structural framework Lord Blair of Boughton: My Lords, I begin by but it is about people. I hope that we can build on the declaring an interest. In common with a small number welcome references to victims, to extending the input of noble Lords speaking today, I served as a police of victims, survivors and the voluntary organisations officer for a long period—in my case, 35 years, with 10 that support them. They have a lot to contribute in as a chief officer. I shall have some other interests to addressing the need, for instance, for co-ordinated declare later on. child protection, as well as in helping victims of human I rise to my feet with a heavy heart. As the noble trafficking, rape and the other appalling things that go Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has just said, the main measures on in our not always very nice society. in the Bill are seen by both parties in the coalition as I will not take up more of the House’s time today manifesto commitments in principle. They have been on the policing part of the Bill, except to say that this passed by major majorities in the other place and seem Bill is about public service reform and constitutional likely, whatever happens in this House, to become law experiment. Is it not sensible to make sure that we—I in their essentials. I am concerned with only one part 137 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 138 of this Bill—the election of police and crime mayor. For that reason, I hope that your Lordships commissioners and what will flow from that change. will excuse me if I exceed the advisory limit by a This idea is quite simply the most lamentable provision minute—that is all it will be. about policing that I have ever encountered. The idea The Government have laid much emphasis on a is an unintended changeling—a potential cuckoo in proposed protocol concerning the relationship between the nest of policing. It will set back 60 years of the chief constable and the elected commissioner, which progress towards the establishment of the operational may or may not be statutory. The Greater London independence of the police, which is the jewel in the Authority Act currently contains specific statutory crown of British policing and its most important provisions for the processes which should be followed contribution to the rule of law in this country, with in the removal or the suspension of the Commissioner unforeseeable consequences. of Scotland Yard. However, the present mayor of I am grateful to the Home Secretary, to the noble London, acting as chair of the Metropolitan Police Baroness and the policing Minister for recently taking Authority—he having assumed that office the day the trouble to see me. However, while they listened, before, after a change in legislation—did not choose to their speeches as reported in the other place and as use those processes. He merely told me that he would heard today indicate that they did not agree with the arrange a public vote of no confidence at the next concerns that I expressed. I told them that the Government authority meeting, which I would lose. I could have had the right diagnosis but completely the wrong said, in terms, “So what?”, as the commissioner is remedy. Despite the honourable service of those noble appointed by the Home Secretary. However, I could Lords here who served on them, it is true that police see that that would have put my force at war with its authorities are little known by the public. However, own authority and damage the service of which I was the cure proposed by this lack of public profile is a steward. When I saw her, the then Home Secretary worse than the disease. To replace police authorities could see that as well. We were also aware by the next with a single, directly elected person is to introduce a day that news media had already been enquiring about foreign species into an indigenous environment without my resignation. There was no time for recourse to the knowing what the impact will be. processes laid out in the legislation because the stable door had been thrown open and the horse had bolted. Some 20 years ago, after the Bookbinder case in the A pretty similar situation arose in the subsequent case early 1990s in Derbyshire, a Conservative Government of Assistant Commissioner Robert Quick. introduced independent members to police authorities in the Police and Magistrates’ Courts Act 1994, precisely This Bill contains similar, detailed clauses and schedules to limit improper political interference in policing. I on the removal of a chief officer. There may indeed be believe that that independence is crucial, which is why an additional semi-statutory protocol in future, but I told the previous Labour Administration while neither will help a chief officer in the face of an elected commissioner that I could not support fully elected commissioner determined to get rid of him or her or, police authorities. It seems strange to me that a as sometimes happens in the United States—I know Government 20 years later should completely reverse that the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, will acknowledge their position. this—of a proposed mayor who campaigns on getting rid of the current chief constable or bringing in another The proposal is based largely on the American named individual. Politicians appoint and dismiss for model of police governance. There are a reputed 17,000 political reasons, as they do everything else. How law enforcement agencies in the United States. I recently many times will a chief constable go on arguing with a visited Martha’s Vineyard, which is about half the size man or woman who can replace him or her for reasons of the Isle of Wight. There are six police forces on that other than proven incompetence or misconduct? How island, the largest of which in Edgartown has 26 officers. often will the police chief insist on his or her operational The chief holds office at the pleasure of the town duty to deal with national and regional crime, rather mayor; the people of the town know him, know the than the local issues on which the commissioner has officers and love the arrangements—but they also been elected? How robust will the police chief be in know that these officers serve only their small community examining allegations concerning a friend of the and that if anything happens beyond the force’s capability, commissioner? Finally, what bright young man or which it quite regularly does, in will step the Massachusetts woman will put their pension at risk of such capricious state police, then the FBI, then the Department of termination by becoming a chief constable? This, as Homeland Security and then one of the many other one American police chief put it to me, will introduce federal organisations. If, after a suitable inquiry of into Britain the weakest link in US policing. No some sort, the Government had proposed breaking protocol or clauses in legislation will stop this possibility. back policing to local towns and communities in this community, that would have been logical, but there is I said that I have a heavy heart. I have been approached little logic in replicating the arrangements for Edgartown by Members on different sides of the House to support with one person representing the interests of electors or suggest amendments to the Bill. With the deepest in all of Worcestershire, Herefordshire and Shropshire. regret, I do not expect to be doing so. That probable decision is because I believe that this provision is Neither of those points are my main objection, simply wrong in principle. No amendment to the which lies in the relationship between the elected powers of the police and crime panel, to the protocol commissioner and the chief constable. Here, I must or to any other provision, however wisely suggested by declare my second interest as the only former police Members of your Lordships’ House, will prevent the chief in your Lordships’ House who knows what it is significant damage that this measure will do to British to serve under a person who is acting like an American policing, probably irrevocably. 139 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 140

[LORD BLAIR OF BOUGHTON] system of direct election. I appreciate that the Government In closing, I must declare another interest: the have sought to meet these anxieties by providing for noble Lord, Lord Cormack, who was my history the creation of police and crime panels, but despite the teacher at school. Of course, I bow to his knowledge noble Baroness’s assurance, there is doubt about whether of politics as well as of history. I accept that many the panels have sufficient powers to hold the commissioner elected commissioners will be men and women of to account, particularly in the crucial business of the integrity, although some may not, yet they will all be appointment, suspension and removal of chief constables. politicians. This is what the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, Police authorities are not perhaps as dispensable as said in the other place in a debate in November 2008 the Government suppose. on a Private Member’s Bill seeking to introduce elected A second major area of concern is the preservation police commissioners: of the operational independence of the police, which “To politicise the police in the way that has been suggested”— is one of the cornerstones of our system. It is agreed then there was an interruption. He continued: that policy must be democratically decided, but that “Of course it would politicise the police; people would stand operations must not be under the direction and control for election on party tickets and for populist policies. Frankly, the of politicians. As discussions in another place have Bill is a prescription for anarchy and disaster, and I cannot shown, the difficulty lies in determining the meaning support it”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/11/08; col. 640.] of operational independence. As a minimum, it must Neither can I. cover individual decisions to arrest and question, but clearly it involves much more. I can see the objections 5.15 pm to a general definition of independence, which neither The Lord Bishop of Gloucester: My Lords, Her the Government nor ACPO wants. I therefore welcome Majesty’s Government are rightly concerned about the announcement in Committee that the Government the level of public confidence in policing, which is part would draw up a code of practice, setting out the of the general crisis of disillusionment with political respective roles of the Home Secretary, chief constables life and public institutions. Clearly it must be right in and—if we must have them—police and crime principle to seek to reconnect the public with the commissioners. However, in these matters, the devil is prevention and detection of crime and the preservation in the detail, and I hope your Lordships’ House will of public safety. However, as we all know, doing this have at least some information about that detail during effectively and appropriately is not so easy. The current our discussions. tripartite system of police governance provides a careful I close with some brief remarks on the licensing balance of responsibilities and powers involving the reforms in Part 2. Experience seems to show that the Home Secretary, chief constables and police authorities, Licensing Act 2003 did not deal adequately with the though it must be admitted that it is rather opaque to public order and health problems arising from excessive the public. The Government’s solution to the so-called alcohol consumption. In some respects, it made it democratic deficit is, as we have heard, the direct more difficult to tackle them. I broadly support the election of police and crime commissioners, in an proposals to rebalance licensing procedures to allow attempt both to release energy for change and to the concerns of local authorities and local communities improve communication and accountability. However, to be voiced and taken into account. This must be part this is not without its problems, as we have been of a broader range of measures to reduce alcohol hearing. Several of us on these Benches have been abuse and challenge the culture of excessive drinking. made aware of the concerns of our local chief constables The proposals, in this respect, are nevertheless timely on this score. and welcome. I think it was Aristotle who identified three types of government: monarchy, oligarchy and democracy. Any 5.20 pm system of governance is likely to incorporate the roles Lord Howard of Lympne: My Lords, I speak in of the individual, the representative group and the support of the Bill. In the interests of brevity, I shall people. There is wisdom in subjecting an individual to confine my remarks to Part 1. It is hardly surprising the scrutiny of a group of people with varied backgrounds that I should be in support of Part 1 since I can claim and expertise, as the system of chief officers and a modest share in the paternity of that proposal. The police authorities does. Like others, I wonder whether proposal for elected police commissioners was in the setting up another individual police and crime 2005 general election manifesto of the Conservative commissioner to monitor a force and its chief does not Party, which I had the honour to lead at the time. I in some respects narrow the potential for scrutiny, and appreciate that that claim, judging by the speeches create the potential for personality clashes and, worse, that we have heard so far, is not likely to endear me to the intrusion of politics with a small “p”—and as we all of your Lordships, but nevertheless that is the case. have been warned, even a capital “P”—into the At least that claim enables me to rebut conclusively relationship. Furthermore, by concentrating so much one of the observations made by the noble Lord, Lord power in the office of the commissioner, does it not Blair: this proposal does not originate in any attempt risk the possibility of police governance being hijacked to emulate some model transported across the Atlantic by individuals or groups with a sinister agenda, particularly from the United States of America. Rather, it is designed as a result of elections with a low turnout? to remedy a weakness in the present arrangements in This may sound like an argument against democracy this country. That weakness can be summarised in one itself, but current concerns about the legitimacy of the question: what is the name of the chairman of your AV referendum result suggest that we need to be aware police authority? That is the question to which, if you of these practical problems when setting up a new ask the ordinary man and woman in the street, not 141 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 142 one in a thousand would be able to give you the right others, who said, “Trust the people”. That is not a bad answer; indeed, most of the people you asked would watchword. With great respect, we in this House should not have the faintest idea what you were talking about. be particularly cautious about casting doubt on that Your Lordships will have noticed that I posed the watchword. As my successor as Home Secretary, Mr Jack question in terms of the chairman of the authority. If Straw, put it—admittedly in a different context—in an you ask the man or woman in the street the names of excellent article in yesterday’s Times: the members of the authority, you would have an even “There is a patrician tendency among the British political elite more minuscule response. that asserts that some issues are too serious to be informed by the vulgar instincts of the common people”. Baroness Henig: Would the noble Lord be able to It is a tendency that we in this House should particularly guess how many members of the public out of a guard against. His words were, as I say, in a different hundred would know the name of the present Police context; he was criticising some of the policies of the Minister? Is that then an argument for the Police current Lord Chancellor and Justice Secretary—criticisms Minister to be directly elected? that I wholly share. I assure your Lordships that I am not invariably a supporter of all the policies of the Lord Howard of Lympne: Not at all. The whole Government. However, his words are equally apposite point, as I am about to explain, is that the reason why when applied to those who distrust the electoral process this single question contains the nub of the case for that the Bill would put in place. change is that police authorities should be the means The provisions of the Bill are consistent with the by which citizens hold their local police force to account. localism that is such an important part of the coalition That is the point of police authorities, and the anonymity Government’s approach. They create transparency, of those authorities is an insuperable obstacle to the which is also at the heart of that approach, and so achievement of that objective. The point of Part 1 of essential if true accountability is to be asserted. There the Bill is to sweep away that obstacle to provide the are many points of important detail that will certainly basis for true accountability. merit careful attention and scrutiny on the part of this The election of the police and crime commissioner House. I wholeheartedly support Part 1 of the Bill and will attract a great deal of attention. I would not go so I commend it to your Lordships’ House. far as to say that everyone in the local community will know the name of the commissioner when he or she 5.27 pm has been elected; after all, not everyone knows the name of their Member of Parliament, nor does everyone Baroness Hilton of Eggardon: My Lords, I declare know the name of the Prime Minister. However, a an interest as a police pensioner with 34 years’ service large number of people would know the name of the in the Metropolitan Police. I, too, will concentrate on commissioner, many more than know the name of the Clause 1, which concerns the appointment of elected chairman of the police authority. That would provide police commissioners. I confess that I have particular the transparency that is necessary—this proposal is difficulty in understanding how a single individual can about transparency—if the holding to account of the be expected to represent all the variety of local police is to become more meaningful, more effective communities in a police area the size of, for example, and much better understood by those on whose behalf the West Midlands or Thames Valley. However, there that accountability is being exercised. are more fundamental objections to this plan. This, however, is a big change, and I recognise that First, there is the very simplistic idea, often held by inevitably it gives rise to some concerns. There is a politicians, that elections are always a guarantee of concern that the change will have an impact on the democratic accountability. My experience of helping operation and independence of the police, and I accept to monitor some 14 or 15 elections in countries of the that it is essential that that operational independence old Soviet empire has shown that the mechanics of is preserved. As has been pointed out, though, the voting—now generally efficiently performed—have little language in the Bill, which provides that the chief to do with democratic accountability, which is much constable has direction and control over his force and more dependent on a free and open media and a officers, is identical to the language in existing legislation. neutral police service that does not serve the sectional The Government intend to publish a protocol, which I interests of politicians. I am puzzled, moreover, by the understand they hope to have available by the provenance of this idea that an elected politician commencement of the Committee stage in this House. should have direct control of a police force. The Home As the right reverend Prelate said, the devil is in the Office has always been irritated by the independence detail, and it is right that that protocol should be of chief constables, but to turn 43 forces over to the exposed to great scrutiny by this House in Committee, control of 43 politicians will only increase diversity as I am sure that it will be. However, I do not accept and disparity between individual forces. We will no the view of the noble Lord, Lord Blair, that chief longer have a common standard of policing in this constables, with the command that they have too of country. access to the media, the ability that they have too to It is also possible that the germ of the idea was put their case, will be so pusillanimous as to give way drawn from the United States. That country, as we to any police and crime commissioner who oversteps have heard, has about 17,000 separate forces, some of the mark. which are excellent. However, others have more examples There are other concerns, including that someone of racism and brutality than we have seen in this dangerous or wholly unsuitable might be elected. I country. Moreover, the crime rate has been declining think it was Benjamin Disraeli, among no doubt many both in this country and in America but, nevertheless, 143 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 144

[BARONESS HILTON OF EGGARDON] claim that that individual represents the whole community there were almost as many murders in New York last would inevitably impact on operational policing. It is year as we had in the whole country. Therefore, I do naive to assume otherwise. We have had 200 years of a not think it is an example to be followed. police service that is admired throughout the world. It Secondly, in this country we have had nearly 200 years would be a tragedy to destroy it now. of a tradition of a police service that is independent of political direction. Before Robert Peel managed to get 5.33 pm the Metropolitan Police Act through Parliament in Baroness Harris of Richmond: My Lords, I will be 1829, he had made previous attempts to establish a speaking on Part 1. I begin by declaring my interests. professional police service. These attempts were rejected For more than 20 years I was a member of the North by Parliament on the grounds that the whole concept Yorkshire Police Authority and was for eight years its of police was a foreign—specifically, French—idea, chair. I was also a vice-chair of the Association of which would lead to a police state with a police service Police Authorities and am currently a vice-president acting as a tool of government. of the association. My own direct experience of the police service I want to outline a number of areas in the Bill about being used as a tool of government came most vividly which I have concern; other noble Lords have indicated during the miners’ strike. I was a commander at New them. However, I begin by absolutely agreeing with Scotland Yard at the time and for a few months was the Home Secretary when she says that she does not responsible for the police co-ordinating centre that want to run the police. What a refreshing statement organised the transfer of large numbers of police that was after years of micromanaging the imposition officers around the country. Every morning someone of targets into almost every aspect of policing by came from the Cabinet Office for a situation report. I former Home Secretaries. Sadly, though, this is where was horrified by their attitude, which was that this was my praise has to end. The proposals in the Bill are some sort of war game and that the mining communities unacceptable in their present form. Making one individual, were the enemy. There was no understanding of the instead of the present 17 or 19, responsible for oversight damage that was being done to police and public of policing makes the argument about politicisation relationships in those areas. and partiality very real indeed. At best, the proposal is I would also like to draw on my experience as a likely to undermine the confidence of minority chief superintendent at Chiswick and Brentford. The communities and, at worst, could introduce a real division of Chiswick and Brentford has two very distinct threat of corruption into policing. parts, as many of your Lordships who are familiar Will a police and crime commissioner be able to with London will know. It is a large and diverse resist pressure from one community over another, as community but is inevitably biased in favour of those we have just heard from the noble Baroness, if the who are most powerful and most middle class. ballot box has shown support from one of those Chiswick is a leafy suburb of London with riverside communities but not the other? Will the PCC not feel communities, low-rise houses and a well-to-do middle-class the need to ensure that those who voted get the best constituency. Brentford in contrast has two high-rise service; and might those who did not vote be disregarded? council estates and a football ground. No part of the What happens if the PCC is unable to fulfil his or her division was a high-crime area but the majority of the duties? Almost certainly, the PCC will be male, white thefts, graffiti, harassment of Asian shopkeepers and and middle-aged. Who will deputise for that person? rowdyism and two of the three murders that we had The Bill states that they should be a member of the during my three years there were in the Brentford half PCC’s staff, but they are expressly required by the Bill of the ground. Nevertheless—this is the point of the to be non-political. I believe strongly that that role anecdote—all the pressure that I had from the local should be undertaken by a member of the police and community came regularly from the middle-class crime panel, otherwise the PCC could have a wholly inhabitants of Chiswick. They wanted a considerable unelected person running things in their absence, who police presence—as someone said earlier, a policeman may have to make some very political decisions such on every corner—to prevent commuters using their as what precept to set. leafy streets as rat-runs. I had difficulty persuading There are serious questions to be asked about how them that there were more serious problems elsewhere the PCC will ensure diversity in his or her team, or in the division. I fear that a single politician representing how, indeed, diversity will be assured within the police a particular constituency would be similarly biased in force—making sure that the police reflect the communities directing what a chief constable did. they serve. I question how one person can give confidence In many ways the police service is already highly to minority communities, and how the vast experience accountable, and not just to police authorities. There of the 17 or 19 members at present on police authorities is always intense media interest in all aspects of policing, can be harnessed. Who might fill the skills gap that whether crime detection, civil emergencies or the manner they leave behind? in which public order is maintained. The current An erroneous argument has been put forward that widespread debate throughout the country about the police authorities have been weak and invisible, yet tactics of police in dealing with demonstrations is an not one—I repeat, not one—authority has failed the example of this scrutiny. There are great dangers in recent inspection of authorities undertaken by HMIC. having police commissioners, who would inevitably This compares very favourably with other public represent a single political party and who would have sector bodies, of which a minority routinely fail such power over a chief constable, being able to set a inspections. There has been a massive decrease in budget and appoint and sack a chief constable. To crime and a continued rise in public confidence in 145 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 146 policing over the past few years, so I simply do not will we know if these extraordinary, costly and radical understand what is broken about the current system reforms are genuinely wanted by the people of England that needs fixing. and Wales. The argument about police authorities being invisible 5.42 pm is probably made because they spend their money on Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, I will confine my policing, not on themselves. Police authorities have remarks to Part 1 of the Bill. I declare a past interest: been lean and mean in order that front-line policing some 43 years ago I was appointed a Minister in the should not be diminished in any way. Indeed, they do Home Office responsible on a day-to-day basis for the opposite of what is proposed. Personalising the policing. When I look back at that period, it seems role of police scrutineer, making it high profile and almost a distant pre-incarnation. “visible”, will cost a great deal more than at present, as well as set up the possibility of conflict between The central reality that one should regard as a the chief constable and the PCC over who exactly runs template for all matters that one considers in the the police. context of the police is that the police service represents two things. In the first instance it represents a disciplined Talking of costs, calculations have been made about service with a disciplined hierarchy. In that regard, it the setting up of this untested and untried scheme. has much in common with the armed services. However, The Police Minister, as we have heard, suggests that it unlike the armed services, the police force comes into will cost only what present police authorities cost now, daily contact with the citizens of this land. The idea of plus the costs of elections—£50 million every four a disciplined force is central, because it raises the years. Independent analysis suggests that the reforms question of whether a civil commissar can overlook will cost a minimum of £453 million over five years, any part of the functions of a disciplined force. The which is a conservative estimate. That is already second point, which is equally valid, concerns the £100 million more than the entire cost of running force’s independence. The independence of the police police authorities over the same period. Incidentally, is as crucial to the rule of law as the independence of that represents the equivalent cost of 600 police officers. the judiciary. Any tampering with those twin pillars—the I question whether that is good value for money in an disciplined hierarchy and the independence of the age of austerity. police—jeopardises the future of the police service. There is provision in the Bill for payment to panel Whatever the temptation may be to pander to any members, but where will that money come from? If whim, caprice or populist trend, it must be resisted. central government is paying for the PCC and his or The Government’s case has not been made in the her office, it must also pay for the panel’s office—the slightest. Three cases have been put forward. The members and their staff—otherwise this whole exercise matter was debated in the other place on 13 December is deeply flawed and completely unfair, and proper last year. I will not quote the exact words of the Home scrutiny cannot take place. I hope there is no suggestion Secretary; they appear in col. 707 of Hansard. She that these panels will be paid for out of hard pressed gave as the main reason for the reforms the fact that local government funds. That would be ironic indeed, the police had failed the public when it came to and would take away local representation with one curbing crime. We heard nothing of that today—and hand, and make it pay more for less involvement with understandably so. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of another. The present structure of police authorities, Kings Heath, reminded us—the figures are slightly with some variation of membership and perhaps size, broader than those that he mentioned—from 1994 to would be far preferable to these proposals. the present, under successive Governments, the spectacular We will debate many other issues during the passage fact is that crime has fallen by almost 50 per cent. That of the Bill, including the timing of the reforms. Hosting is a huge diminution. Therefore, obviously, the main the Olympic Games will be the most challenging project plank of the Home Secretary’s case disappears there that the police in this country have ever faced. The and then. front-loading of the proposed cuts to police funding Today we are told by the noble Baroness, Lady will have begun to bite. Reforms to police pay and Neville-Jones, that there has to be a transfer of authority conditions of service will have started to be implemented. from the Home Office—from Whitehall—to local bodies. One can imagine the effect of that on an already Nothing of that is proposed in the Bill. Indeed, one demoralised and unhappy police service. The stability could well argue that the police panels would be and resilience of forces will be at their lowest. Whatever utterly without identity, as compared with the police one’s view of the desirability of police reform, this is authority. We heard from the former Home Secretary, absolutely the wrong time to do it. the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, whose main case was that people do not know the name of This is a real mess, done without proper thought or the chairman of the police authority. I do not suppose consideration of the wider policing landscape. that those people know the name of the Lord Chief Dramatic constitutional reforms are being proposed Justice, the Master of the Rolls or the head of the without support from the public. A recent poll Family Division, but one does not impose a civil indicated that only 15 per cent of people want them. commissar on them. We should produce a consolidated Bill covering all national policing issues rather than taking this piecemeal Lord Howard of Lympne: Is the noble Lord suggesting approach. The current Bill predicates some of what that the Lord Chief Justice or the Master of the Rolls might be in a future policing Bill. At a very risky time exercises some local accountability on behalf of the for policing in this country, we should test these proposals community? That is the difference between the two. before bringing them in across the country. Only then Surely that difference must be apparent to the noble Lord. 147 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 148

Lord Elystan-Morgan: I see no difference whatever secondly, the matter of police commissioners. However, between an ignorance that is shared by a small community before that, following the example of the noble Lord, in relation to a local matter and an ignorance that is Lord Elystan-Morgan, I wish to make one foray into shared by a large community in relation to exactly the generalities. I do not speak as a police expert, as your same issue. That is my argument. Lordships will know, but I believe that we need a police covenant in this country to parallel the military Lord Cormack: How many local people know the covenant, when that is finally formalised and published, names of those who sit on the Bench? as the Government have undertaken to do. Lord Elystan-Morgan: That is the case and it illustrates This excellent Bill, making provision for the how completely the Government’s case is shattered. administration and governance of police forces, will in The problem is not what has been identified but the the end be effective only if we move successfully back solutions that are now proposed. They are disastrous. towards a new settlement in the public mind about the The idea of introducing a civil commissar, for that is police, who do a difficult and dangerous job, sometimes what it will be, into this situation will jeopardise the getting killed at home in the civilian front line exactly future of the police service—the best police service in as do our servicemen and servicewomen in their front the world. It is a police service whose development we lines abroad. We seem to have gone from Dixon of have been very proud of over the last 175 years. Dock Green to the idea that the police are somehow I have no doubt that police commissioners will devils in uniform in just about a generation, as we also come in every size and shape, but they will have one seem to have lost that intrinsic British balance between thing in common: they will nearly all have been espoused the right to a quiet life and the right to demonstrate. by political parties. The election of an independent We saw that not too far from my West Country will be rather exceptional, yet in all those cases they home near Bristol on Good Friday, with crowds wishing will have one thing in common. There will be no need to express their displeasure at a particular supermarket for any of them to have the slightest qualification or chain morphing from retail nimbys into stone, then the slightest knowledge of policing—no more than the bottle, then firebomb-throwing yobs in an instant, man in the moon. How can that bring about a diminution injuring police heads and breaking teeth with abandon. in crime? How can it bring about greater accountability? A nanosecond later, out came the usual suspects to Anyone would think that our police officers were not blame the police for it all, locally and nationally—for accountable, but they are not a gendarmerie or a corps violence, for pushing too hard, for using the wrong d’élite. Every police officer from the lowest in the land tactics, for being too heavy-handed or too light-handed, up to the chief constable is answerable to criminal law. for kettling or not kettling enough. Strange how in Since 1964, every chief constable has been answerable fiction the police are often alleged in times of difficulty for the actions of his or her officers. to go out to round up the usual suspects—no need for There are massive dangers here. There can be no that on Good Friday, because the usual suspects were question of honouring the boundary that separates out in numbers, often on autopilot, coming out to operational from non-operational matters. It is a shadowy speak for anarchist, community, liberal or human boundary at best and in practice it is impossibly rights groups, blaming the police for all the ills of the difficult. Imagine a commissioner saying to the chief demonstrations that took place. constable, “I believe we are spending too much money I think that we are very lucky to have the police that on covert operations—on surveillance—and I want to we have and believe that we need to find ways both know what they are”, and the chief constable says, “I nationally and locally to formalise a covenant with can’t possibly tell you”. How then can the commissioner them. That is something that we need to think about evaluate the division between some areas of expenditure in government and that chief constables and the new and others? police commissioners will need to do. I shall finish by saying that I believe that the Home Office has served the police badly over the past 12 months That generality explored, I turn to Parliament Square, in failing to preserve the police budget. Of course, where we have seen, and I have witnessed, violent and there is a case for an across-the-board sacrifice, but it unreasonable protests leading to injuries to the police was rightly decided by the Government that that sacrifice and an appalling misdirection of police effort and should not apply to hospitals or schools and that in resources away from fighting crime in other parts of relation to the armed services it should be reduced to the capital. Knowledge that there is going to be another 8 per cent. In the case of the police service, the demonstration in Parliament Square outside the Palace Inspectorate of Constabulary made it clear that the of Westminster is a much welcomed burglars’ charter diminution limited to 12 per cent would mean that no to those in that trade who want to operate in our outer front-line cuts would be necessary. But that is not what boroughs, so I applaud the action that my noble friend was agreed. The diminution was set at 20 per cent and is taking with the Government to strengthen our powers top-loaded to apply in the main in the first two years. in Parliament Square to remove nuisances and to try That is a double jeopardy to which the police have to prevent them from happening there in the future. been exposed: first, in the failure to preserve their I have looked with interest at the map of Parliament minimum budget for efficiency; and, secondly, in the Square, published as an annexe to the Explanatory proposal for this utterly madcap scheme. Notes. Having had some interesting maps in an earlier professional manifestation, I studied this map with 5.50 pm care. Sadly, it lacks the traditional indication of where Lord Patten: My Lords, I wish to address two true north lies. The map is produced by the Greater points: first, the matter of Parliament Square; and, London Authority, so I suppose that we can fairly 149 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 150 blame Mr Mayor for that failing, unlike some of what The police service has been examined exhaustively I think were rather unfair criticisms made by the noble throughout these years, and from my experience I can Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton—he is not in his place, say that morale at the present time is at an all-time low. but I hope that one or two of his noble friends will The police are different from other workers and play draw my remarks to his attention. Also, there is not much an important part in our democracy. What singles detail at the edges of the map; there is terra incognita. them out from other employees? First, there is the The ancients, drawing their maps cartographically in importance of the job itself. No civilised society can the old days, had this problem. They used to run out function without the enforcement of the law and the of knowledge of what was at the edge of their maps, maintenance of order in a way that is acceptable to the so they would put, “Here lie dragons, here lie monsters, populace. Secondly, there is the statutory prohibition here lie supporters of AV”, or whatever else. of industrial action as a bargaining chip. It is extremely We need some reassurance that the police with their important, therefore, that Governments treat their new powers over Parliament Square will be able to act police officers honourably and do not lose sight of the with the same determination in the matter of the point. This is probably the culminant to which the pavements immediately opposite Parliament Square, noble Lord, Lord Patten, referred. for fear that there may be displacement activity and This is an important Bill that contains many important that those people removed from Parliament Square provisions. In the short time available, I intend to deal may move to Bridge Street, St Margaret Street or Great with one particular aspect that, as other noble Lords George Street—new betented encampments may spring have mentioned, has caused great concern. I come to up by the displacement of activity in Parliament Square the debate with 35 years’ service in the police service almost as traditional as morris dancing to the streets but also 12 years in your Lordships’ House, and no around the margins. That is the one question that I proposed change to policing has caused me more would ask the Minister to think about letting me know concern than this particular Bill. the answer to, in future if not tonight. Thirdly, lastly and briefly, I, too, am prepared to By popular acclaim, the United Kingdom sets the come out and be unpopular. I declare myself as very gold standard for policing in that we police by popular much in favour of police and crime commissioners. consent, and much to the surprise of foreign visitors Indeed, had I not made the pledge to dear Lady the police are largely unarmed. I have lived through Patten, I would have thought it an appealing post to many reforming Home Secretaries from all parties, stand for, but I do not think that I shall. The problems but for all the changes that have been advocated, and for police commissioners are excellent and interesting in some cases achieved, none previously tried to get and I predict that, after all the huffing and puffing that the police involved in politics. The strength of the has suddenly erupted in your Lordships’ Chamber, British policing model is the operational impartiality unlike in another place, such commissioners will very and independence of the police, and this was achieved quickly become part of our civic warp and weft. It is after many scandals. Some noble Lords will remember important for people to have the opportunity truly to the old rotten watch committee system of the 1950s recommend local views and to be truly accountable to that led to the undue influence of petty politicians on local people. The Government’s plans for police operational matters, and in some cases directly to commissioners chime with the new, or at least reborn, police corruption. Tory localism, meeting the honourable Liberal Democrat The trick is to have an operationally impartial and localism, which I thought was well established until I independent police service that is also truly accountable. heard some Liberal Democrat views of dissent this I believe that this was achieved with the development evening. This is an excellent Bill and it has my strong of the modern tripartite system of governance, with support. the chief constable working with the police committee and the Home Office. He is accountable locally to the 5.58 pm public he polices through the guidance of elected members of the police authorities and to some extent Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords, I, too, through elected MPs, who can question the Home declare an interest as a former president of the Police Secretary. The same Home Secretary, of course, exercises Superintendents’ Association of England and Wales. governance on national issues such as organised crime The history of the police in this country throughout and terrorism. The chief constable of a force is also their relatively short life has been one of those rollercoaster accountable to the local community through a plethora rides of success and acclaim, with periods of crisis and of consultation mechanisms in his police area, and of threats of reform. I once wrote a brief history of the course ultimately he is accountable to the law through association and I was struck by the cyclical recurrence the courts. of the crises, with morale and pay dropping off and politicians setting up committees and inquiries to remedy Many years ago, as a superintendent, I spent some the problems—from Desborough at the beginning of months with the FBI. I got to know a number of the century, through the Oaksey committee and the police chiefs and county sheriffs in the United States. Willink commission to the much lauded Lord Edmund- It became obvious to me quite soon that the appointed Davies inquiry, set up by the then Home Secretary, the town police chief was totally beholden to the elected late Lord Merlyn-Rees in 1978, followed by the town politician, who had the power to hire and fire. If controversial Sheehy inquiry in the early 1990s, which the politician wanted the police to target a particular I am delighted to say the noble Lord, Lord Howard, problem, which might be to his electoral advantage, he stamped on after the disastrous stewardship of the would not hesitate to interfere. In my experience, it now Justice Secretary Ken Clarke. was a foolhardy police chief who challenged his political 151 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 152

[LORD MACKENZIE OF FRAMWELLGATE] of the ethnic minorities. Perhaps I may say that there master. If your job depends on it, you will by nature be was then much less politicking. There were no group reluctant to risk saying, “This is my operational decision, meetings before police authority meetings. not yours”. Noble Lords live in the real world, and I have asked myself why people serve in the House that is common sense. of Lords. Are we here for our experience or our With the sheriff, who is directly elected, it is in a wisdom? I make no claims to wisdom, but I have sense worse. He is generally elected on a local ticket experience of working with a large number of chief that deals with real problems in his area. That is fine as constables, and I have never heard any of them discuss far as it goes, but it reduces his interest in regional party politics. I suggest that this legislation has not problems and even more so in the national scene. The been thought through. It will politicise the police, so it worrying thing is that he could be elected almost on a needs to be piloted to establish whether it is likely to single issue, and sometimes is. All his deputies are have the intended effect, whether there are any unintended appointed by him, and my experience was of them consequences, and whether the costs have been assessed leaving for the weekend to canvass for the sheriff when accurately. Going back to three remarks that have he was due for re-election. They had to; their jobs been made by noble Lords, if the Licensing Bill 2003 depended on it. I found that bringing raw politics into had been put through a process of piloting, would we this arena can lead to corruption. now be dealing with problems of alcoholism and In Britain, the constable’s oath of office emphasises disorder in our city centres? We are doing so now a duty to impartiality and accountability to the law. because the then Government rammed that Bill through We should be careful not to undermine his ability to without carefully thinking about the consequences. honour his oath by creating a greater duty to support I give notice that I shall move an amendment to an elected politician’s chosen priorities. The existing provide for a pilot scheme to be conducted in a single police authorities provide balance and moderation county area outside London, and that at a later stage coupled with community checks and balances. It is of the passage of the Bill I intend to press it to a invaluable for the chief officer to have access to such a Division. Sometimes the House of Lords must ask the range of community views in the whole of his geographical other place to think again and again. I hope that noble area, provided by a mix of people who are both Lords on all sides will support this attempt to construct appointed and elected. The big worry with the present a much better piece of legislation than we have been Bill is that all this power and influence is placed on presented with. one elected police and crime commissioner. In many cases, the constituency of a PCC will be greater than 6.08 pm that of any elected Member of the House of Commons. Some will have populations of over 1 million, cover Lord Condon: My Lords, I declare my registered over 20 parliamentary constituencies and five local interests. As a former police commissioner I am a life authorities. In my judgment of local accountability, a member of ACPO, and more recently I am the deputy single individual cannot possibly hope to have the chairman of a security solutions plc that provides same level of representation as a police authority. This outsourced services to the criminal justice system. creates a less inclusive form of police governance. The election of over 40 new and inexperienced High-level police corruption in the United States is police and crime commissioners would be a challenging very great compared with Britain. In my view, that is experiment in the best of times. But these are not the influenced by the politicisation of the police. This is an best of times. They are the most difficult times for error in the Bill. It has not been justified by any policing for perhaps over 50 years. Police force budgets evidence from Ministers, and it puts the police service have been cut by over 20 per cent for the next four at great risk of being dragged into politics. There is years. These understandable but nevertheless draconian still time to change, and the coalition Government reductions are leading to significant reductions in the should be big enough to recognise this by not enacting number of police officers and civilian support staff. provisions that they will live to regret. Police officers’ pay and conditions are being managed down, again for understandable reasons but with severe collateral damage to police morale. These events are 6.04 pm being played out against a background of potential Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, on 25 November last in civil unrest and strikes over government spending cuts, a debate initiated by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, while in the international arena we see increasing I set out my views on the proposed reforms as they uncertainty, which could lead to more acts of terrorism concern police commissioners. I want to make it clear in the United Kingdom. that what I say today has no origins in the recent I believe the Government have a very strong duty to discord within the coalition. I am seeking not to set out a compelling case for how their proposals for destroy the Bill but to have its contents more carefully elected police and crime commissioners will maintain, considered. or hopefully enhance, the accountability and performance I was a member of a police authority for about of the police service locally, nationally and when necessary 12 years, and I was a member when my noble friend internationally. Like other noble Lords, I believe that Lord Howard of Lympne introduced the last major certain principles should be enshrined in the new reform, that of introducing independent members into arrangements. First, as others have said, nothing should police authorities. That improved the quality of the be done to jeopardise the operational independence of police authorities beyond measure by increasing their the police service or to damage the historic office of independence and bringing in more women and members constable, both of which have been enshrined in our 153 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 154 policing arrangements since the formation of the and all the other infrastructures to make this proposal Metropolitan Police in 1829. This operational work. I just do not believe that these proposals can be independence is the cornerstone of the legacy of British cost-neutral. Even three to four new senior posts per policing, which has been, and continues to be, admired county outside London will add significant costs to throughout the free world. I look forward to the policing. promised protocol on how the operational independence The fourth principle is that, against the background will be preserved. It has been promised on several of the most dramatic reductions in police budgets that occasions. It is long overdue and I find it bizarre that any serving police officer has experienced, the new at this stage of a Bill we are being asked, almost as an arrangements for very localised policing must not act of faith, to believe that a protocol will at some prevent the savings from economies of scale that sensible stage resolve this issue. procurement demands. Savings in the procurement of The second principle I would encourage is that equipment, technology and services are best achieved police and crime commissioners are part of a joined-up, through national, or at the very least regional, integrated policing network and not a patchwork of arrangements. The private sector, in which I have already disjointed local forces. In the modern world a small declared an interest, will more readily offer up savings incident in, say, Bristol, Birmingham or Bradford can to larger-sized buyers of their products and services quickly lead to issues that have national or international than deal with over 40 individual police forces. The dimensions. We have yet to hear from the Government new arrangements must encourage, if not compel, a persuasive, detailed account of how regional, national collaborative endeavours to procure goods and services and international policing matters will be dealt with. and provide real value for money. The proposals for a national crime agency are still not I am not, in principle, against the proposal for sufficiently fleshed out to give complete reassurance police and crime commissioners. The Government that organised crime, terrorism and other major issues have the right and indeed the duty to test and improve will be dealt with properly against the background of the current arrangements for police governance and over 40 new, inexperienced, elected police and crime accountability. I believe I earned my credentials to say commissioners seeking to ensure their re-election on this when I was commissioner of police. I came into very localised policing issues. Again, I find it bizarre office when the Home Secretary of the day was the that, as an act of faith, we must believe that at some police authority for the Metropolitan Police. I believe stage we will be told how these national arrangements there was a democratic deficit in the policing arrangements will pan out. for London, and I argued strongly for a police authority The third principle I would argue for is that, against for the Met with stronger links to London and Londoners the background of the most difficult set of police and supported and embraced the creation of the budgets in living memory, the new arrangements must Metropolitan Police Committee, which evolved into not add significant costs and levels of bureaucracy to the Metropolitan Police Authority. I believe that the a system that is already overburdened with form filling, Metropolitan Police Authority has added great value red tape and endless meetings. Take Kent, for example—a to the people of London and the policing of the capital. county I know well. I had the honour of being chief If and when we have elected police and crime constable there, and it has always had a good reputation commissioners, let them respect and build on the for local government and policing. At the moment legacy of the historic office of constable and the there is a county council with a great interest in police operational independence of the police service. Let and public safety partnerships, the police authority them be part of a clearly understood, integrated network and the chief constable. Under the proposed new of policing locally, nationally and internationally so arrangements, the county council will still have a real that local uniformed patrolling complements and does interest and role in the safety of its citizens, the police not compete with the needs to deal with organised authority will undergo a form of metamorphosis and crime and terrorism, which will always transcend local will emerge in a different shape as the police and crime force boundaries. And let us not allow the new police panel, and the chief constable will remain in place. and crime commissioners to add layers of cost and From May 2012, the newly elected police and crime bureaucracy to a system that already groans under the commissioner for Kent will be added to the process. cumulative red tape and form filling that have blighted He, or she, will need administrative support to do the policing in recent years. job properly. He will need professional financial and I hope the Minister and the Government will, during personnel support if he is going to discharge his the passage of this Bill, reassure your Lordships that responsibilities for the budget and the policing plan, the proposals for the new police and crime commissioners to hire and if necessary fire the chief constable, and all will enhance rather than undermine the performance the other responsibilities that go with the post. Either of the current policing arrangements. he will have to be superhuman and omnicompetent or he will need significant support. The boundary 6.17 pm management issues as all these key stakeholders learn Baroness Berridge: My Lords, “Rutland is too large the new rules of engagement of policing a county like a place” was the response to my tentative request to Kent will, I believe, lead to several new senior posts to Garter to be connected to the county of my birth. Has make it work. Otherwise, the police and crime England’s smallest historic county ever been so flattered? commissioner will be a superficial role that adds little I think not. However, I happily settled on the Vale of to the policing landscape. The Government have costed Catmose, as it was the name of my comprehensive the elections of the PCCs, but I am not aware of school, and in the time I have today I hope to live up costings for accommodation, staffing requirements to Rutland’s motto, “Much in Little”. 155 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 156

[BARONESS BERRIDGE] seeking to label this or give it an “ism”, but I believe it Joining your Lordships’ House caused me to reflect to be there and to be wrong. on the input of so many teachers, friends and mentors, I am humbled to speak alongside my noble friend without whom I am sure I would not be here today. Lady Newlove, who, along with others whom I have The uninitiated like me needed teachers to speak of a been privileged to meet—Patsy McKie of Mothers place they called Oxbridge, and after Rutland, Cambridge Against Violence, Richard Taylor of the Damilola seemed a huge metropolis. To be closer than 20 miles Taylor Trust, and the Reverend Les Isaacs of Street to a cinema was, to my mind, positively cosmopolitan. Pastors, to name but a few—is working to change To be corrected, however, that it was no coincidence things for the better. But people have gone beyond that our law lecturer and the textbook author had the community response and are involved in the matter same name opened up a world of learning I never which your Lordships are considering today in this could have dreamt of. Bill: the governance of our police. Any wisdom I Before law studies lay a gap year in Ghana, a proffer owes much to Pastor Nims Obunge, adviser to country I have now known for over 20 years, a land of both Operation Blunt and Operation Trident, and to gold, cocoa, stable democracy and world-renowned the chair of West Midlands Police Authority, Bishop politicians such as Kofi Annan. But I lived as a lone Derek Webley, the first black police authority chairman. white face among a million people in the last days of It is sad to note that the late Lord Scarman, who communicating by thin blue airmail paper. The novelty reported on the Brixton riots, did not live to witness of being so obvious and treated as somehow special Bishop Webley’s appointment. soon wore off and I longed for anonymity, privacy Any branch of government, whether the legislature, and the perceived safety of not being different from the judiciary or public institutions such as the police, everyone else. must have legitimacy. Legitimate government requires Unfortunately, at Cambridge I required the excellent the consent of the people and must accordingly be services of Addenbrooke’s Hospital, so my final year representative of the people whom they seek to govern. was deferred. Not to be outdone, I did voluntary work It is my sincere desire that directly elected police and in the beautiful twin island state of Trinidad and crime commissioners and the police and crime panels Tobago while my contemporaries did their finals. Trinidad will reflect the population and, in particular, the ethnic is the major Caribbean economy and I was surprised diversity of the people whom they police. to find that it had a population which was then Further, the social responsibility that the Bill is approximately 40 per cent black and 40 Asian. I had seeking to engender around alcohol consumption is studied GCSE and A-level history, but was only then already present in many of Britain’s ethnic minority beginning to learn the tragic and utterly courageous communities. I soon learnt when hosting events with stories behind much black migration around the globe. guests from the black-led or Chinese churches that Trinidad is a peaceful and prosperous society, but not very few people would want alcohol. Legislation alone without complexities from its colonial past. cannot create a culture, café-style or otherwise. I hope that the values of self-restraint, moderation and abstinence Upon completion of my law degree there were nine which are also found among the British Pakistani and wonderful years as a barrister in Kings Chambers, Bangladeshi communities will come to dominate English Manchester, after which I moved to the truly cosmopolitan and British values around alcohol, rather than those city of London. I came to direct the CCF—not the that the police often encounter on our streets in the Combined Cadet Force but the Conservative Christian early mornings. Fellowship—a great organisation, but at that time lacking in denominational and ethnic diversity. A 2007 As the youngest woman in your Lordships’ House, Tearfund survey found that 48 per cent of the British joining felt as exciting and daunting as the latest black community is regularly in church. Meeting and extreme sport. I remain amazed at the expertise and learning from leaders of the British black community wisdom of this Chamber which I have been privileged has allowed me to be the recipient of much hospitality to join. Some of your Lordships wrote the text books and patience, as I struggled to grasp the issues. that I studied from. Finally, I am extremely grateful to the doorkeepers, Insights from Ghana and Trinidad were valuable the Attendants’ Office, to catering staff and to Black but inadequate. I was forced to confront a reality that Rod’s Office for their hospitality, answers to my endless was not my own experience, and never more so than queries and for the welcome given to me and my when the appalling murder of Rhys Jones hit the headlines. guests on the day of my introduction. I have particularly The response of the public, media commentators and appreciated being able to dine with and get to know politicians was utterly appropriate in its emotion, its Peers from all Benches and I look forward to working volume and its outrage. But why when so many young with your Lordships on issues of mutual concern. black people died in similar circumstances did it seem YourLordships’ kind generosity to me as a new Member that the response was more muted? Was it because the has made my time in the House not quite so daunting. media were not needed to catch the culprits? Was it because the victims were slightly older? Did they die 6.25 pm when other items legitimately dominated the news cycle? Taking all that into account, I could not get rid Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, it is a of the lingering suspicion that there were assumptions great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady about these black youngsters and that that lack of Berridge, and to congratulate her on a truly outstanding outrage would communicate to relatives that young maiden speech. Of course, we would expect no less black lives were less valuable in our society. I am not from a very talented barrister, but she presented her 157 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 158 maiden speech with a great deal of style and wit and the Olympics—seems to me to make too great a demand let us see what a valuable asset we have gained in her on UK policing. It puts at risk both police resilience presence with us. and public confidence. In Dods, the noble Baroness put down her countries Many sources have expressed concerns about whether of interest as Ghana, Iraq, Nigeria and Trinidad and the proposed new structure will undermine the political Tobago, which indicates the breadth of interest that independence of the police. ACPO, while agreeing she brings with her. She explained to us today why she with the Government’s expressed aim of improving is such an expert on so many different facets of what democratic oversight—and who could be against that?— one might call multiculturalism in Britain. We look stated that the reform, forward very much to hearing a lot more from the “will, on occasion, create a clear tension where political incentives noble Baroness and we are sure that it will be with the for any politician are for partiality (such as on the approach to an excellent style and wit that she has shown us today. election) and may run counter to impartial professional policing views”. The Bill is of enormous importance, with potentially I do not always find myself in agreement with Liberty, far-reaching consequences for our whole system of as Members of this House will have noticed from policing, as the long list of speakers bears witness some of the debates I have taken part in before. today. At this stage of Second Reading, with such a However, I do on this issue, when it says it considers long list of speakers, I shall speak as briefly as possible that the proposals, on Part 1 of the Bill and on Clause 154 on arrest “will politicise operational decision-making and place too much warrants, in Part 4. power in one place—dangerously undermining the independence of UK policing in the process”. In Part 1, the Government propose to abolish the existing police authorities and replace them with directly The so-called “Peelian”principle—after Sir Robert—of elected police and crime commissioners in each police policing by consent by officers operating on principles force area in England and Wales. That would of non-partisanship and accountability to the rule of fundamentally change the nature of our policing by law, not to Government, has served this country well. I politicising police services and interfering with the remain to be convinced that the proposals in this Bill operational independence of the police, notwithstanding do not put that principle in jeopardy. the protestations to the contrary of those who support Very briefly, I want to welcome the long-overdue these proposals and of course we have heard rehearsed reform of our universal jurisdiction legislation in again today by the Minister. Clause 154, which I am glad the Government are now doing and which I rather wish the previous Government I agree with the summing up of the Association of had done earlier, even if they did start to prepare for it Police Authorities that this is, “the wrong reform at toward the end of their term in office. The current the wrong time”. There are great risks in concentrating legislation dangerously exposes the English and Welsh power of responsibility for oversight of policing in legal system to politically motivated individuals trying one individual rather than, as now, some 17 or so in a to obtain arrest warrants against foreign politicians police authority, who are a diverse group of councillors for publicity purposes. The amendment would reduce and independent members drawn from various political exploitation, make the system in England and communities across the whole force area. Wales more robust, and bring it into line with practice There is also the question of costs. In the present in Scotland, where magistrates cannot consent to private climate of cuts and reduced police numbers, we are requests for arrest warrants without a Criminal Letter surely entitled to expect that radical changes should be from the High Court, on which the Lord Advocate made only when benefits will clearly outweigh costs, would have been consulted. but that is not the case here. Analysts have suggested An unintended consequence of the current legislation that the cost of the proposed reforms will amount to is that the DPP is only consulted before the issue of £100 million more than the cost of running police arrest warrants in public prosecutions, not private authorities for the same five-year period, 2011-16—the ones. That really does not make any sense. Amending equivalent cost of some 600 police officers, as the the law to require the DPP’s consent to the issue of noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, so expertly arrest warrants against foreigners alleged to have explained to us. committed war crimes will strengthen our system of I also believe that there are operational risks. There applying universal jurisdiction laws. Clause 154 is are real concerns that PCCs will focus on issues that therefore very welcome. are more likely to attract public attention and enhance the chances of their own election rather than lower 6.34 pm profile crime issues that are still of importance in any Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, I hope that my professional scale of policing priorities. noble friends on the Front Bench will welcome a brief Then there is the timing of these changes, a point so interlude from the almost unremitting attrition in eloquently put by the noble Lord, Lord Condon. The relation to Part 1, for I, too, want to speak, and mainly most significant cuts to the policing budget, of some about the universal jurisdiction. I was one of a group 14 per cent, are likely to hit in 2012; and huge changes of colleagues in your Lordships’ House, with most of to police pay and conditions are proposed in the the others coming from the Cross Benches, who were Winsor review. To implement radical changes when involved in activity in the last Parliament supporting the police service is trying to implement reform to the provisions that were incorporated into Section 70 police pay and conditions, create a new national crime of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. That provision agency and implement other reforms—all shortly before extended the universal jurisdiction for war crimes, 159 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 160

[LORD CARLILE OF BERRIEW] number of police forces from 43 to something like a genocide and crimes against humanity. Unfortunately, quarter or a third of that number; to reduce the since the enactment of that provision, we have seen number of chief officers and police authorities, whether little evidence that the new provision is working at all. elected or not; and to reflect, by that means, the My view is that it is part of good administration—which essence—the needs—of modern policing. appears in the Long Title to this Bill—that Ministers Wales is one example I have much experience of should bear the responsibility for the universal jurisdiction and I cannot believe that it would not be better policed and that police forces should bear the responsibility by one police force, or at the most, two, instead of for showing that it is working. By now, prosecutions four. I cannot believe that north-west England would should be commencing as a result of the enactment of not be better policed by the combination of Cheshire, Section 70, but they are not. The criticism that the Greater Manchester and the Merseyside police. I deeply United Kingdom remains a safe haven for war criminals, regret that the Government and their predecessor—for I am afraid, still sticks. their predecessor when Charles Clarke was Home With this in mind, I, along with others, will in due Secretary started to approach this territory—have not course table an amendment aimed to ensure reporting taken on this agenda, which is really what we need to and accountability of the work in relation to the produce a police force that will survive the next couple universal jurisdiction. Of course, the universal jurisdiction, of decades. as the noble Baroness has just said, is connected to Clause 154. For the reasons she has given, I welcome 6.40 pm that clause and cannot understand any logical argument Baroness Newlove: My Lords, I was amazed but for the view that private prosecutions could be brought apprehensive when the Prime Minister asked me to at a lower standard than public prosecutions. The join you, and I feel truly humbled and honoured to be Director of Public Prosecutions has shown himself to here today. I want so passionately to do justice for the be reliable in dealing with private prosecutions when many campaigners and victims whom I represent. I he has taken them over and recently the higher courts know that I am hugely privileged to be singled out, and have supported his view that private prosecutions should I promise that I will give every ounce of my strength, be subject to the same dual code test that the CPS every breath, so that I do not let them, your Lordships applies to public prosecutions. I shall strongly oppose or the Prime Minister down. I wish to thank my any attempt to remove Clause 154 from the Bill. sponsors, my noble friends Lord Strathclyde and Lady Now back to the attrition, I am afraid. I congratulate Warsi, and my wonderful, warm and kind mentor, my the Government on their decision to create direct noble friend Lady Morris of Bolton. I thank especially democratic accountability for the supervision of police all the employees of your Lordships’ House: my friends services. It is long overdue. However, I do not congratulate the doorkeepers, the attendants, and the wonderful them on the way they have set about it. It has long staff and catering staff. They have shown me great been Liberal Democrat policy—and I regret very much kindness and respect. Their warmth has meant so that this was not in the coalition agreement—that we much to me and they deserve their recognition for should have elected police authorities. I see no problem keeping the wheels turning smoothly here. with elected police authorities—they would be reasonably I might speak in simple words and not be as polished substantial in size, they could elect and remove their as many of your Lordships here today, but every word own chair, and it is likely that their own chair would be comes from my heart. There is such a wealth of from diverse sections of the community from time to experience, knowledge and humanity in this place. I time. I see this as a much more accountable and look to your Lordships’ House to help me, a novice, reliable process than that set out in the Bill. It would make this a safer and happier country. I cannot change avoid—or at least be more likely to avoid—maverick the past but I will do all I can to improve the future. leadership, eccentricity, crass bad judgment and conflict I dedicate my speech to my late husband Garry and with the relevant chief officer. to my beautiful daughters for their courage and strength. I have worked professionally with police authorities Without their love and support, I would not have in some pretty critical cases and have seen them to be wanted to go on living. Together, the girls and I set up responsible and careful and to listen to advice but, Newlove Warrington and we are working on establishing quite rightly, not always to take it. However, it has a youth zone based on the brilliant model of Bolton been their collective approach that has been the benchmark Lads & Girls Club to enrich the lives of young people. of their success. I therefore intend—I hope with others—to I also thank my elderly parents for their love, guidance, table an amendment for elected police authorities. discipline and strong core values, which have shaped Finally, I want to regret the waste of an opportunity. my life and which I try to pass on. In the time when I was the independent reviewer of Last year I became government Champion for Active terrorism legislation, I watched joint working—which Safer Communities, and I have met brave and inspiring is absolutely inevitable in counterterrorism work—between citizens from all walks of life. These quiet, unsung police authorities. The Wales Extremism and Counter heroes just get on making their neighbourhoods Terrorism Unit, which is a unified body involving the better places to live. They are good neighbours and four police forces currently in existence in Wales, is an they strengthen my belief in the better side of human example. In all difficult areas of policing, 43 territorial nature, while exposing the darker element of suffering police forces can no longer do the really serious work still out there, to our shame. My report, Our Vision for on their own. It is my regret that the Government have Safe and Active Communities, is their voice, and together not taken the long-overdue opportunity to reform the we stand a real chance of rebuilding parts of our police service in England and Wales; to reduce the damaged society. I am also delighted to work within 161 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 162 the Department for Communities and Local Government, They prevent ordinary people enjoying a night out. and across Whitehall, to implement my report’s We must return to social drinking, get rid of underage recommendations, and I ask you to support them and me. and binge drinking, and work closely with the drinks industry to educate and promote safe, sensible alcohol I am just an ordinary woman from a working-class consumption. I will make that one of my top priorities. background propelled into this elevated position by a set of horrifying circumstances, which I wish with all Since that terrible night when Garry died, I have my heart had never happened. Almost four years ago I campaigned for victims whose lives are blighted by was a wife, married to Garry for 21 years, and a thugs. Minor crime, disorder and anti-social behaviour mother of three children: Zoe, then 18; Danielle, 15; should be a huge warning bell to us all. Unless this and Amy, only 12. Garry had been struck down with behaviour is nipped in the bud, it grows like a cancer, cancer at the age of 32 and had to have his whole unseen and undetected until it blooms like a malignant stomach and spleen removed. Together, we fought and flower, which, as we know, can kill. Stories like the beat it as a loving, united family. Garry was brave, Pilkingtons’ or the Askews’, where isolated and vulnerable funny, the life and soul of the party, and he adored us, people have been bullied and hounded to death, are a which makes all the more terrible the senseless way in disgrace and must not continue to happen. But I know which we lost him. that the big society is out there. It has been simmering for years on low heat with no name. Good neighbours Our neighbourhood was bothered by groups of and good deeds exist and we must learn from them. youths hanging around an underpass near to our We must celebrate them and give them the resources home, drinking, swearing and being a nuisance. I and the power to turn up the heat. I believe we need attended neighbourhood meetings about them but it that fuel of people power to make a difference. Cynics was treated as low-crime, anti-social behaviour, so not may knock it, but I know that it works. I stand before a priority. On the evening of 10 August 2007, Garry you to show that it can propel anyone to the greatest had gone out barefooted to investigate breaking glass heights. Personal responsibility is the price we pay for outside our home. Our next-door neighbour was a all the good things that we take for granted. We have young woman alone with a baby, and he was worried shelter, food, education, access to free worship and about their safety. Like a hunted animal he was brought free speech, and many countless blessings. Children down by the baying, laughing gang whom he had and young people have to be taught moral values and questioned in front of our horrified daughters. At one standards, and also that community, family and a love stage there were more than 15 around him, boys and of our country are things to honour and cherish, not girls, aged between 14 and 18 years, high on drugs, to mock and deride. alcohol and adrenaline. Within minutes Garry suffered When we enter a period of peace and kindness in 14 ferocious kicks to the head as well as suffering this country, when everyone is able to go about their 40 internal injuries. On 12 August I woke up a wife but lives safely, day or night, then, and only then, will went to bed a widow. Garry’s legacy, the high price he paid with his life, be Some of these teenagers had been in trouble with deemed by me to be almost worth the cost. the law from only 11 years of age, and I ask: where were their feckless parents? Our girls watched their 6.49 pm beloved father being murdered; they were covered in Baroness Meacher: My Lords, I welcome the noble his blood. At the 10-week murder trial, they had to Baroness, Lady Newlove, to this House and shall try relive that experience minute by minute, to be cross- to find the appropriate words to congratulate her on examined by five QC barristers. My 12-year old daughter her incredibly moving speech. We have heard some was told not to show emotion or fidget when being very fine speeches today. My speech will be extremely questioned via video link; but my girls bravely told the quickly forgotten, but I will never forget that speech—it truth. They helped bring some of the guilty to justice. was amazing. Not only has the noble Baroness made a very important contribution today, but I have absolutely There is so much in the criminal justice system that no doubt that she will be a very important contributor is so wrong. The victim or their families are given to the work of this House, representing very effectively scraps from the table. That is why I am working with the issues of victims and of the social problems in our Victim Support, the national charity supporting all communities. I cannot say more than to welcome her victims, as well as witnesses. For too long, victims have and thank her for joining us. been second-class passengers, with the offender and I feel like sitting down right now, but I will limit my their needs in the driving seat. It is time that we were comments to Part I of the Bill, with a very brief treated with respect and allowed to participate in the reference to Clauses 152 and 153 on the drugs issue. I criminal justice system—and even allowed to take the want to support concerns already raised about the driving wheel sometimes. If victims do not have confidence replacement of police authorities with new elected in the justice system, then we all suffer. If frightened police and crime commissioners. For me this is by far witnesses will not give evidence, cases will collapse and the most worrying proposal in the Bill. Indeed, I offenders will walk away. That surely cannot be allowed might be quite happy with one or two other parts of to happen. the Bill, but like so many other noble Lords I cannot I also have to ask: why have we let our lovely towns accept this one. and villages, so charming by day, turn into Dodge City There are many noble Lords more qualified than I at night, infested with drunken, brawling people vomiting to speak in this debate, as so brilliantly illustrated by and causing chaos? They cost us billions of pounds, the fine speech from the noble Lord, Lord Blair, their violence immeasurable in lost innocent lives. supported so eloquently by the noble Baronesses, Lady 163 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 164

[BARONESS MEACHER] The Association of Police Authorities points to the Hamwee, Lady Harris and Lady Hilton, and many pertinent quote from Robert Peel: others. However, I feel bound to make a brief contribution, “Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to having spent eight years with the Police Complaints public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial Authority, working very closely with chief constables service to the law”. and other chief officers across the country. I developed Other speakers have addressed that issue very fully. I a considerable respect—to my surprise, as I was not simply want to support their remarks. expecting to respect these people—for the professionalism, To introduce a different perspective on the issue, it impartiality and deep understanding of humanity of is perhaps worth noting that the health department those officers. It seemed to me throughout that period has a very different approach to governance from this that senior officers paid due respect to their police one. The Minister may find it helpful to consider the authorities while holding on very clearly to their strict approach of her health colleagues. In essence, Health political impartiality. Ministers are seeking to enhance the role of councils I agree with Liberty’s point that, of governors with their foundation trusts. These councils “policing by consent, and engagement between the police and the are the health equivalent of police authorities, including community must not be confused with direct community involvement both elected and nominated individuals representing in operational decision-making”. all sections of the community. Governors are volunteers For me, this is the massive mistake of the Bill. and the governance system carries a minimal cost. There is no plan in the Health and Social Care Bill With so much else to be concerned about in the to replace these 40 to 50 individuals with a single country today, is there any justification at all for changing commissioner. the governance arrangements for the police service? It is worth asking what the serious weaknesses are of the I want to refer very briefly to the plans for temporary present system of police authorities that have led to the banning orders for legal highs. I welcome the Minister’s development of these ideas. We have had different reference to listening to the advice of the Advisory views about HMIC inspections from the Minister and Council on the Misuse of Drugs. This is a very pleasant from other noble Baronesses, but the long and short of change from the recent past, if I may put it that way. I it is that no evidence has been presented today that the was glad to hear the Minister’s assurance that there police authorities have any weaknesses that could not will be no possession offence under the temporary be remediated. If these weaknesses even exist, do they controls. Is the Minister aware that the UK Drug justify the risks involved in introducing overtly political Policy Commission will publish in two weeks or so an control over chief police officers? Do they justify the interesting report recommending a system of regulatory inevitable costs involved in the move to PCCs? The controls over legal highs? I would welcome an opportunity evidence suggests not. I understand that the Government’s to have a discussion with the Minister about that main motivation for the introduction of PCCs is that report and possibly a constructive way forward. UK policing has become too far removed from the In conclusion, I hope that the Government will needs of local communities. I would accept that, but reflect on the profound concerns about the PCC proposals this problem could be tackled very effectively through and will also consider alternative approaches to the an overdue reduction in the number of targets, circulars drug issue. and guidance from the centre to police services and perhaps also some strengthening of the police authorities. Such changes would reduce costs instead of increasing 6.57 pm them, avoid unnecessary upheaval, and reduce rather Viscount Simon: My Lords, it is necessary for me to than increase political interference. It would certainly declare that I am an honorary member of the Police reduce central political interference, and we would all Federation of England and Wales roads policing central welcome that. Crime, as we know, and as others have committee, but your Lordships will be delighted to said, continues to fall, and the chances of becoming a learn that I will not mention anything about roads victim of crime are lower than at any time since 1981. policing today. If the system is working, why change it—or, as they We have heard the Government say that they are a say, if the system ain’t broke, why fix it? listening Government, but what concerns me with The next question is whether the proposals are regard to this Bill is that although they may well listen, sensible. Again, the evidence, comments already made will they act on concerns raised when they listen—or in your Lordships’ House and common sense suggest am just being too cynical? I do not know. The noble not. This matter has been very adequately covered by Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton, who is not in his place, others, and I shall not repeat their comments. As to has stated his experiences of this earlier. the extra costs, the Minister suggests that this matter Page 57 of the Conservative manifesto stated that will be cost-neutral. I have to say that I disagree. the Bill needed to, Clearly, other noble Lords have made it very clear that “replace the existing, invisible and unaccountable police authorities”. there will be costs involved, and the general view Yet, in the Police and Magistrates’ Courts Act 1994, seems to be that the PCCs will cost an additional when the other place was considering your Lordships’ £100 million a year, or about the cost of 600 police amendments to the Bill, the Home Secretary, who is officers. I do not have in my head the numbers of now in your Lordships’ House, the noble Lord, Lord police officers to be cut, but I for one would prefer to Howard of Lympne, said that, see a reduction in cuts in front-line policing rather “the members of each police authority should continue to choose than wasting precious resources on this new governance their chairman and that, in order to stress the independence of system. the new members, the Home Secretary alone should not select the 165 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 166 independent members; but nor should they be selected by the advised differently. As a result, both lawyers would councillor and magistrate members of the authority alone”.—[Official welcome the Bill as it stands, because the financial Report, Commons, 26/4/1994; col. 112.] rewards for them are there for the picking. Thereby, that Bill set out procedures to reflect a balance between the influence of the Home Secretary and the 7.03 pm influence of the other members of the police authorities. Baroness Doocey: My Lords, I would like to address Where does that leave us with this Bill, and why the my remarks to how Part 1 will impact on London. I change? How will the police commissioners provide a need to begin by declaring an interest as chair of the stronger alternative to that which is currently in place? London Assembly. I also serve on the Metropolitan The single commissioner will have no significantly Police Authority and the Home Office Olympic security greater powers in statute beyond the powers to make board. I have a number of concerns about this Bill, grants. When a police and crime commissioner, or not least the Government’s plans to implement it in PCC, seeks to change personnel, that person will lose London from 1 October this year. There are two the power, now exercised carefully by police authorities, reasons for my concerns: the Olympic Games and the to appoint and have oversight of the conduct of ACPO London mayoral elections. ranks below the rank of chief constable. The Games are not just a London issue; they will The appointments of Sue Sim in Northumbria and affect every police force in the country. They take Sara Thornton in Thames Valley are welcome examples place between July and September next year but there in tackling the historically indefensible record of the are also many preparatory events—notably the torch police in maintaining the truth that “the public are the relay, which will start on 18 May, last for 70 days and police and the police are the public”. Since the present impact on every area of the UK. The Olympics present system of accountability was established, great strides the biggest peacetime challenge the police have ever have been made to develop diversity. It is madness to faced and officers from all over Britain will be involved backtrack on this now and to hive off appointments of in providing mutual aid. The logistics of this huge those very senior officers charged with delivering public operation are truly mind-blowing. The Met has spent services away from the public. With the proposed years planning for every eventuality and will continue changes chief constables will become stronger in that to refine those plans right up to the Games. To force they will have the right to act in their own right rather the police to divert their efforts from the security of than with the functions delegated by those in the the Games to a major reorganisation at this critical police authority who are accountable to the public. time almost beggars belief. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, mentioned If that was not enough there is also the issue of the the number of police forces. As an aside, I am sure he mayoral election in London next May, the outcome of is aware that a number of police forces are now which is uncertain. It is quite possible that a new beneficially working closely together although they policing system could be put in place this October, still have their own chief constables and officers. designed to reflect a Conservative agenda, only to be The current system allows between 17 and 23 diverse dismantled again next May if another party wins the individuals to examine the crime as a whole—from mayoral election. Such an expensive and time-consuming counterterrorism to car crime. And, with this in mind, process should happen only once. The Bill does not it is possible for individuals to specialise in particular stipulate when its provisions will be implemented and areas of policing, which a single PCC could never do. the Government are free to choose a sensible date. I However, if a PCC wishes to monitor a particular area strongly urge them to do so. of concern, new staff will need to be employed at My next concern involves the democratic legitimacy additional expense, whereas, currently, colleagues within of the office of police and crime commissioner as the authority could assist. Even if replacing 17 skilled exercised in London. The Bill provides for the post of people with one individual is considered as a solution elected police commissioner to be carried out by the to a weak system, how will that single person strengthen Mayor of London, in the form of the Mayor’s Office accountability? And how can one person become expert for Policing and Crime. The mayor may appoint a in what are increasingly complex challenges for all deputy mayor for policing and crime with most of the society? I hope that noble Lords will exercise extreme same powers and responsibilities. However, there is no caution when considering this proposed revolution to requirement for the deputy mayor to be an elected the British model of policing. person. The mayor could simply hand this job to a Perhaps I may briefly say a few words about the non-elected friend, making a complete nonsense of operational independence of the police under the proposed the argument about democratic legitimacy. changes, and the interesting debates that lawyers might I have a specific concern regarding the proposed have as a result. In the exercise of their powers the system of police complaints in London. The Bill proposes police are answerable to the law and to the law alone—so that, where senior officers below the rank of deputy said Lord Denning in R v Commissioner of the commissioner are subject to complaint, responsibility Metropolitan Police, ex parte Blackburn, in 1968. should be moved from the Metropolitan Police Authority Since then life has changed. However, what has not to the commissioner, who will hear not just the complaint changed is the fact that police officers are free from but the appeals. This would make the commissioner political influence. All of that might change. In some both judge and jury, and remove all elements of circumstances lawyers might be asked to advise a independence and transparency. I believe we should commissioner and a chief constable respectively about remedy this by making the Mayor’s Office for Policing a certain matter, which could well result in both being and Crime the relevant appeal body. Like other noble 167 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 168

[BARONESS DOOCEY] clothes, as the final arbiter of the chief constable’s Lords, I believe that the powers of the police and decisions. The correct definition is not “commissioner”, crime panels need to be significantly enhanced. I have but—as my noble friend Lord Elystan-Morgan said three specific proposals for London: that the panel this afternoon, either on purpose or by accident— should be able to reject the mayor’s draft police and “commissar”. If you look at the dictionary definition crime plan by a two-thirds majority; that the panel of that, you will see that it is an official charged with should have the power to require senior officers from political education. That is who it will be. the Met to provide information and attend meetings; ACPO, with which I have naturally spoken, is and that the power to co-opt voting independent determined not to get involved in an unseemly political members to the panel should be vested in the London argument with Government as to the election of PCCs Assembly, to ensure that such appointees have a proper or the disbandment of police authorities. As to the statutory basis that is not open to challenge. proposed system of PCCs or alternatives, however One of the greatest weaknesses of the Bill is its uncomfortable it might be with the proposal it is clear provisions for the hiring and firing of chief constables in acknowledging that it is Parliament’s decision who and I share many of the concerns that other noble holds the chief constable to account, and how. Despite Lords expressed. We need appropriate procedures to its widespread doubts—and indeed there are widespread ensure that those appointed have the necessary professional doubts—about the current proposals, it will accept knowledge and experience, that dismissals are for them because they will, of course, work in some areas. professional or disciplinary failures and not political That is what police do. If Parliament commands it, convenience, and that operational independence cannot they will do their best to continue to give their public be compromised by inappropriate political pressure the highest level of impartial policing they possibly via the threat of a dismissal. can. My final point concerns the duty of the Home Secretary to issue a strategic policing requirement to Noble Lords will be only too well aware that police, deal with national threats. Under these proposals, like all other public services, will be facing a severe cut police and crime commissioners would effectively be in their resources—a 20 per cent reduction. They will free to disregard such requirements in favour of political of course grumble, but they will get on with it; that is expediency or re-election strategies. They must be their nature. Many different estimates have been voiced obliged to respect them. When we move to Committee, about how many front-line personnel will be withdrawn. I shall seek to address all these issues. Again, despite the cutbacks and their present low morale—because of the danger to their public service 7.08 pm pensions for which they have paid and continue to contribute at an incomparably high 11 per cent of Lord Imbert: My Lords, like other noble Lords this their salary—they will get on with it, because that is afternoon, I must declare an interest. I was attested as what they do. We should value that, rather than kicking a constable in the Metropolitan Police in the year that them again and again. the current commissioner—the real commissioner—was born and I served in every rank in the police service, What are we all worrying about? I am grateful to from constable to chief constable and commissioner. the Minister for correcting my information in a question We all know the expression, “like the curate’s egg”. It that I posed recently; I had understood that the is an appropriate way to describe the Bill. It has some Government would be spending more than £200 million good bits and there is potential for the reform proposals, on a system provided for an elected politician to set such as the new strategic policing requirement and the police budget and hire, fire and suspend the chief national crime agency, to be forces for good. Yet I constable as he or she might decide. Are we not hope that the new national crime agency will not be fortunate—as the noble Baroness assured me—that it just a cheaper, remodelled and less effective SOCA by is not £200 million but only £50 million? That is only another name. Like the curate’s egg, however, if you the beginning, as my noble friend Lord Condon said swallow a bad bit it is likely to prove fatal to the whole. earlier this afternoon. There is accommodation and Your Lordships will not be surprised to know that I, other paraphernalia that will go with it. The commissar too, consider the fatal bits to be the proposals that in every force in the country is likely to receive a salary there should be elected party-political commissioners of something well over £100,000—after all, he would for crime and policing. need to be well above the chief constable, would he not? The Bill also makes provision for a well qualified To call him or her a commissioner is deliberately staff for this individual, and the commissar and his misleading. We have two commissioners in this country: staff will want acceptable office accommodation and the Commissioner of the City of London Police and furniture: carpets, desks, chairs, telephones, headed the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis. This stationery, computers and printer equipment. That is newly elected politician is not a commissioner. Despite every force in the country. It is beginning to sound a the Bill being littered with assurances that the operational bit more like £200 million, is it not? decisions will remain in the hands of the chief constable—methinks they doth protest too much—let Is it not ironic that we can find all this and much us be realistic. This will not be so in practice. A visiting more to ensure that we can introduce this discredited politician to your Lordships’ House recently said to American system, at the same time as we accept that me, “Of course we will become involved in the operational London will lose 700 ambulance drivers to make up a decisions—that’s why we’re politicians; it’s our nature similar amount, a £52 million shortfall? My Lords, do and purpose to be involved”. To call him or her a not have a heart attack or a stroke or a sudden illness commissioner will imbue him or her with the king’s in the Palace of Westminster after the end of this year, 169 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 170 or you will have to get a bus or a taxi to take you to to know, admire and emulate it. No longer will we be St Thomas’s. And who will be there to attend to you? I asked to travel the globe to help and train foreign am told that there will be a severe shortfall of nurses police forces in the traditional way laid down by because we cannot afford them. May I be forgiven for Sir Robert Peel in this country. thinking that if only we had that £50 million that is As I went through the Bill I made some comments planned to be spent on mending something that is not in the margin. Against the election of PCCs I put two broken and calling it reform—a new definition for comments: one was “dangerous” and the other, if your reform—we might have enough nursing and ambulance Lordships will forgive the expression, was “daft”. I personnel to continue to provide their vital, life-saving realise that to use “daft” is discourteous and would work? upset many of my Conservative friends, and I have I shall leave the incredible costs of this idea to one many—at least, I did have until today. Instead of side for a moment. The originators of this Bill have using “dangerous and daft”, I turned to my thesaurus undoubtedly missed the most important point: that and decided that it would be better to say “dangerous police are not government or political appointees or and ill advised”—in fact, grossly ill advised. agents. The office of constable is a Crown appointment, Do we cast Peel’s concept of an impartial and and all officers take an oath at the beginning of their entrusted system of policing to the dustbin, and accept service which begins: that something that has been an example to the rest of “I (full name) do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm the world must now imitate a failed and untrustworthy that I will well and truly serve the Queen”— system from across the Atlantic where another culture yes, the Queen— prevails? If we want real and well thought-through “in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and reform let us do what the Police Federation has, over impartiality”. the past 10 years, been asking for and have a royal I emphasise that they are not civil servants but Crown commission. Do not let us legislate in haste and repent servants, who discharge their duties impartially according in future. to law and not according to a political instruction, preference or whim. 7.23 pm Those who are of the same political persuasion as Lord Freeman: My Lords, I pay tribute to the the Bill’s originators will, understandably, no doubt moving maiden speech of my noble friend Lady Newlove. vote for this part of the Bill, but how will they feel She has already won many friends in the House as well when we have the first National Front, British National as great respect for her courage and, I am sure, for her Party or other extremist party-political commissar? speech today. Please let us not put our heads in the sand. Let us not I strongly support my noble friends Lord Howard ignore that; it could, and no doubt will, happen. How of Lympne and Lord Patten. I, too, strongly support will the chief constable respond if he believes or has the Bill and I want to spend a couple of minutes in information that a planned march or demonstration is defence of the political process and party politics. The likely to result in very serious public disorder, but it is assumption of many noble Lords today has been that also known that the commissar is of the same political this may turn out to be a corrupt and corrosive process. persuasion as the march organisers? I think that the opposite will be the case. I have great It has already been mentioned this afternoon by respect for the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings noble Lords that a recent YouGov poll showed that Heath—he is an effective debater and an astute 65 per cent of those polled did not want any change politician—but I was slightly depressed by his assertion from the present system, 15 per cent agreed with it, that somehow we will have a corrupt regime in place if and 20 per cent did not know. The poll was commissioned and when the Bill becomes an Act, as I am certain by Liberty, which I admit has not been my comfortable it will. bedfellow very often. It is difficult to ignore a poll like My argument is this. With the protocols, which the this, which shows that a large and representative section Minister has explained will be tabled shortly before of our society is against this proposal, with only a few Committee, I hope that we can concentrate on the in favour. clear distinction between the chief constable, who has If the Bill is to go through unamended, will we next operational responsibilities, and the police and crime find a proposal using similar arguments—that we do commissioner—he or she is not a commissar—who is not know the name of our High Court judges—for the an individual elected both to ensure that there is a election of High Court judges on a party-political clear division of responsibility and to build a sense of basis? It might sound dramatic, but we would be confidence and co-operation. failing in our duties if we did not remind ourselves I take a positive view of these changes because, as that in Germany in the 1930s political direction and my noble friend Lord Howard rightly said, there is a action took precedence over real policing of society, as democratic deficit. My experience as a constituency it did in the Soviet Union in the 1950s, 1960s and very MP was that very few constituents knew who the early 1970s. I emphasise that I am not saying that that members were—people will certainly know who the would happen here, but we must beware of the police and crime commissioner is—and the activities opportunities for an insidious and subtle political of the police authority seemed not to be as central as I creep into ordinary daily even-handed policing decisions. believe they should have been. Under the Bill there The Bill as it stands will be the valedictory address will be an opportunity for the commissioner to raise for the global reputation of the British police service—the issues of responsibility, not the operational discharge final eulogy for British policing as the world has come of functions, reflecting the concerns of their constituency. 171 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 172

[LORD FREEMAN] that we see those noble Lords in the Content Lobby I very much agree with the remarks that were made supporting amendments to the Bill that will deal with earlier from the Liberal Democrat Benches. Larger its weaknesses, as that is the only way in which it is constituencies—mergers of counties, if you like—are going to be made better. certainly in the best interests of making sure that we There are a large number of speakers today, so it have a high quality of candidates coming forward, not will be impossible for the Minister to respond to all only to stand as commissioners but to be nominated the points raised. I hope, though, that she will further by the district councils to serve on the panel. address the point about the operational independence I believe that the protocols are going to be extremely of the police and say how the Conservative Government important. I agree that, as several noble Lords who will ensure that that is maintained and not affected by have served with great distinction in the police force the proposals in the Bill, as I am not convinced by her have said, it is very important that the distinction of earlier remarks. the two roles is made clear and I believe that that will I think that we are heading for all sorts of problems—in happen. particular, where the police and crime commissioner I support the Bill. I hope that we will have a has a police and crime plan that is at odds with what rational discussion and that the noble tradition of the chief constable or commissioner in London believes being a party politician, like 50 per cent of noble are the operational requirements for the policing service Lords in this House, will be preserved. to meet the challenges ahead of it. That is why I am disappointed that the Conservative Government have 7.26 pm not suggested a pilot of these proposals and a proper Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I congratulate review before consideration of a rollout. Maybe we the noble Baronesses, Lady Berridge and Lady Newlove, should have the benefit of an inquiry into the proposals, on their maiden speeches. The whole House will benefit or the option of a local referendum, as other noble from their contributions in the years ahead. I look Lords have said, before they are implemented in any forward to the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord area. At a time when we have to make public expenditure Blencathra. cuts, is this really something to which we should commit new spending? The Bill is one of those Bills that need the House to exercise its full powers of detailed line-by-line scrutiny. If the options are more police officers or a police It will require considerable amendment as it goes and crime commissioner, I would rather have more through your Lordships’ House so that we ensure that police officers protecting people against criminals. I it is a much better Bill when it returns to the other think that most sensible people would want the same. I place. live in London, so I keep thinking of the Conservative At the outset, I should make it clear that I am not at Mayor of London, Mr Boris Johnson. He may have all convinced of the case for police and crime many admirable qualities but he and his deputy mayor commissioners. Things can always be reformed and are not the right people to determine such matters. I renewed but that is not the case in these proposals. The was alarmed when I read the briefing note from the problem is that in one Bill the present arrangements of mayor’s office, particularly the part that says that, police authorities and chief constables are being done “it is vital that it be made clear that the MPS Commissioner away with, to be replaced with PCCs. To make such a cannot refuse to deliver the MOPC plan and priorities”. major change without thought and planning, without That is a recipe for disaster, putting the mayor and the testing and reviewing, is very unwise. commissioner at loggerheads. Surely we want the The more I hear of these proposals, the dafter I commissioner and his staff—the professionals—to deal think they are. There is certainly little support from with crime, using their expertise and professionalism the public for this change. Your Lordships will be to keep our communities safe from crime and criminals. aware of the YouGov poll, which other noble Lords Moving on to other parts of the Bill, I have always have mentioned, that showed that only 15 per cent—yes, supported the right to peaceful protest. I have participated only 15 per cent—of the public would trust an elected in peaceful protests and organised a few in my time. police and crime commissioner to best protect their Since I became a councillor, people have protested family rather than a chief constable reporting to a about things that I have done in that and other roles. I police authority. have also seen protests and wondered what was going This is of course a Conservative manifesto proposal on. Therefore, I have seen protests from all sides, with that has found its way into the agreement between the the exception of policing them. Changes have to be Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. It will be interesting made to what is acceptable outside Parliament. The to hear from the Liberal Democrat Benches how in the permanent encampments are not necessary and sensible negotiations of the agreement they gave up on their plans should be brought into play. The damaging manifesto proposal for directly elected police authorities health effects of living on the pavement, for years in with the power to co-opt extra members to ensure some cases, should be of concern to us all. It is very diversity, experience and expertise, and why they think regrettable that Parliament Square had to be fenced that this is so much better than their original proposals. off from the public and 24-hour security put in place, A number of noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat costing thousands of pounds and preventing residents, Benches have said how opposed they are to these visitors and tourists from coming to the square. This proposals and that they are going to do everything needs to end as soon possible. It can happen only that they can to stop them. Well, if the Government when we have proper measures in place to ensure that are not persuaded by the weight of argument, I hope there is no return to the problems of the past. I look 173 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 174 forward to the Committee and Report stages of the the same thing at all. I was brought up to believe that Bill, when we will explore what reforms can be put in there is little point in making substantive change to place to give the police the correct powers to police something unless you are absolutely convinced that protests on the square and to allow not only protestors what you will put in its place is noticeably better, to make their point but also those who wish to enjoy particularly when that process is involved in delivering Parliament Square to do so. an operational outcome. The operational outcome is, On licensing, the Bill includes several measures that of course, the policing of this country. merit proper discussion in your Lordships’ House. We I looked for guidance in the impact assessment that should look at how the late-night levy will operate in was published on 31 March. I looked first at the two practice and at what incentives there are for well questions that were asked in the first box. The first managed premises to be recognised as such. Maybe was: there could be something such as an insurance-type “What is the problem under consideration?”. discount scheme. If there is no trouble, your levy goes I see that the problem is: down; if there is trouble, you risk your levy going up. “The Government believes policing governance under Police We should also explore the process by which people Authorities has become distorted and over-centralised in recent are licensed. Is there any way, through the levy system, years, leading to a system heavy with bureaucracy, and removed to ensure that residents who object to licences have from the public view”. access to legal assistance to enable them to present The second question is: their case better? My experience of local government, “Why is government intervention necessary?”. although some years ago now, is often that companies, businesses and their owners employ experienced specialist The answer is: solicitors and counsel as necessary, while local residents— “Government intervention is necessary to achieve wholesale change, and to formally provide the public with a participatory the tenants’ or residents’ associations, the local playgroup role”. or the community group—do not have the means at their disposal to do likewise. They are at an immediate That comes from a document signed by the Minister disadvantage in putting their case forward. We should for the Police. I admit that I found those answers use the passage of the Bill to explore options for slightly thin. You do not have whole Bills merely to empowering citizens to have their voices heard. It achieve wholesale change; you are looking for what would be useful if the Minister could give her initial this change is all about. What is it doing for us? I reaction to this in her response this evening. looked at the next box, which said: There are many other points in the Bill that other “What are the policy objectives and the intended effects?”. noble Lords have raised, about which I, too, have The answer was: concerns. I will leave it there at this stage, but I will “To transform the policing landscape in England and Wales raise these and other matters at the next stage of the by reducing bureaucracy, increasing democratic accountability passage of the Bill. and getting the public involved in how their streets are policed”. However, the public are already involved in how their 7.34 pm streets are policed through the 17 members of the police authorities, nine of whom are elected and eight Lord Ramsbotham: I am very sorry that the noble appointed. That has been so since the 1960s, so what Lord, Lord Patten, is not in his place. Had he been are we talking about? there I could have assured him that in 1965, when I Then I come to the last box, which asks: was operating on the border between Borneo and Kalimantan, I was equipped with a map that had the “What policy options have been considered?”. words “Here be dragons” on it. Before making my Two have been considered. One is “Do Nothing” and main contribution to this debate, I give notice of two the other is: issues that I shall raise in Committee. One has already “Replace the existing governance framework of Police Authorities”. been mentioned by my noble friend Lady Meacher, However, there is a third option, is there not? Surely, if namely Clause 153, the question of the advisory council the complaint is that the existing system has become and the amendments proposed to it. In introducing distorted, instead of wholesale change we could look the debate the Minister assured us that the Government at amending distortion. In particular, as my noble were willing to listen to expert advice, yet the Bill friend Lord Condon has pointed out, we are now in a proposes that the expert advice that is available to that very difficult situation, not just economically but over committee should be dispensed with. It is not only an the whole question of how the policing structure of error but a pity that an amendment to the Misuse of this country is constructed and operated. I am extremely Drugs Act 1971 is being included in a Bill with several concerned that we should be launching ourselves into other clauses rather than being treated as an issue in something as fundamental as is proposed here. It is itself. Secondly, on behalf of the British Transport not that I instinctively object completely to it all, but I Police Authority, I shall table some amendments that ask myself whether it is worth a candle to do this will strengthen the Bill by increasing co-operation instead of having an option 3. That would be to look between the authority and other police forces, particularly at what is currently said to be wrong and see whether in counterterrorism and in the run-up to the Olympics. there is another way of fixing it without throwing the I must admit that I was surprised, when I looked at whole thing away and starting with something completely the title of the Bill, to see that it was called the Police new and untried, particularly as that new and untried Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. I could find thing includes this extra dimension of increased political very little in it that was about police reform. Instead, it oversight of something that, traditionally, has been was about police responsibility reform, which is not operationally independent. 175 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 176

[LORD RAMSBOTHAM] not matter which Government were in charge. I would Having looked at all that, I then remembered that like to think that the same applies to policing and that when I studied for the staff college exam in 1962 one party politics should never enter the policing arena. I of the set books was the report of the Royal Commission hope that out of this opportunity that the Government on the Police, published in 1962, which went into the have created to examine what we mean by policing, whole question of policing. I remembered it particularly instead of focusing too much on the reform of because of a memorandum written by the father of responsibility, which has so many red herrings that it the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, that dissented from will draw people off on all sorts of trails, we get back the line put forward, which essentially promoted to the fundamental questions: is our policing system maintaining the status quo of local police forces. fit for purpose for the 21st century, and have we got However, Goodhart said, “No, it is time to go national”. the structures and the people in place? His reason for saying that it was time to go national While we are on the subject of people, I am very was based on a very simple statement that criminals glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, mentioned recognise no local boundaries and that many of them leadership, the training of leaders and the identification travel about the country executing their plans on a big of them. That is hugely important. One of the reasons scale. In fighting crime of this kind the police are why we should consider a national and a local police handicapped unless they can enjoy the advantages of force separately and recruit people both locally to central command, without which no army could hope carry out local community activities and at a national to win a battle, and small forces are greatly handicapped level is because of the complexity of the things that by their lack of modern technical facilities. I say, the police have to deal with. You need to recruit, train “Hear, hear to that”. However, that was the situation and manage the career plans of people who will become in 1962. We now have increased electronic complexity the experts in these extra activities, which place so added to the whole web of what the police have to deal many demands on our police. with. Instead of focusing, as the Bill seems to do, on Therefore, I hope very much that the Bill will turn pointing everything down to the local end and on the into a discussion on the reform of the police and not local accountability of local policing, which of course just the reform of the responsibility. To aid us in that I is important, surely it makes sense when we are looking ask the Minister to ensure that the missing paper from at policing in general to have national oversight and the Minister of Prisons is provided before we start what the Minister described as the strategic direction Committee so that at least we have firm details of that might come from the Secretary of State. what the Government are proposing. I have thought about this matter for years, and my conclusions have been reinforced by my personal 7.46 pm experience on the streets of Northern Ireland and my Lord Boateng: My Lords, let me at the very outset, experience commanding the United Kingdom field in the presence of the noble Lords, Lord Stevens, Lord army that was responsible for the defence of this Condon and Lord Imbert, put my hands up and say, country and for counteracting the effects of natural “It’s a fair cop Guv, I’ve got form as long as your arm disasters. I have often thought that it was time to on police accountability”, because I have. I have had recognise the tensions that are inherent in policing. the pleasure of working with all three of those noble The tensions are there because essentially policing is a Lords in different capacities over the years as a civil compromise between the national and the local. Neither liberties lawyer campaigning for the reform of the element is superior; both have to be accommodated. police, as chair of the GLC’s police committee The difficult job that faces our chief constables is the campaigning for the political accountability of the balancing act that they have to perform not only in police in London, and as Minister of State for Police satisfying the demands with which they are confronted in the Home Office. In all those various capacities, I at the national level but in honouring and recognising have supported and campaigned for directly elected the local element that is in all their work as they live political oversight—I stress “oversight” as opposed to and work among people on the streets, and it is their “control”—of the police. Therefore, I am bound to well-being that sends out the real message about how say that I cannot oppose as a matter of principle the successful policing is in their eyes. This tension, caused proposal that is put forward in the Bill—and I do not. by compromise, must never be forgotten. However, I am also bound to say that I share the very I wonder how an unelected, inexperienced, untrained real concerns that have been expressed in the debate police commissioner is going to become responsible about the proposal that the Bill envisages and the way for producing what are called police and crime plans. in which it is being introduced. Where will they get the education, staffing, experience I cannot but recollect the vehement opposition of and background to carry out this very difficult balancing the then Home Secretary to the very modest proposals act that chief constables currently have to perform? that were put forward by my colleagues in the Labour Surely the role of councils, commissars, commissioners, Party in 1994 when we proposed directly elected police or whatever anyone calls them, is to support the chief authorities. That modest proposal—modest in comparison constable and to help and enable him or her to carry with this reform—was met with the following words of out their responsibilities in the part of the country to the then Home Secretary. He said: which they are appointed, however large or small. As I “I reject entirely the view long held by members of the Labour said, I hope that this will be done on a larger scale. party that there should be directly elected police authorities. That would be a recipe for politicising the police service. It would also Noble Lords might think that I am talking as a mean removing all magistrates from the work of police authorities. soldier. Fortunately, as a soldier one was not subject to I believe that that would be a retrograde step”.—[Official Report, party political interference. We did our job and it did Commons, 26/4/94; cols. 112-13.] 177 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 178

The noble Lord is in his place. He knows whose words The other issue that we will have to explore with those were. They were the words of the then Home real care is operational independence. It is a matter of Secretary. concern that we have not, to date, seen the protocols. We will want to see them, examine them carefully and Lord Howard of Lympne: When circumstances change, see what the interplay will be between the panels, the I change my mind. What does the noble Lord do? police commissioner and the chief constable. As to getting that balance right in the budget, policing policies Lord Boateng: I very much welcome that almost and priorities, we need to make sure that all three damascene conversion. I would be the last person to constituent parts of that arrangement are properly oppose the conversion that the noble Lord has evidenced equipped, able and resourced to carry out their in his remarks today in support of the Bill. However, I responsibilities. I do not accept the assurances that we should counsel against the sort of zealotry that often have heard from those on the government Benches comes with conversions of that nature—the zealotry that the whole exercise is cost-neutral. If it is cost-neutral, that cannot find any place in its heart for piloting or it will be unable to deliver what the Government hope the modest proposals for safeguards that have come for, because you must resource properly the panels and from noble Lords not only on this side of the House the police commissioner. If you do not do that, this but on his own side. I hope that the Minister, in her will be a sham exercise or an exercise that is designed response and during Committee, does not exhibit quite purely to pander in some way to the notion that we the same degree of zealotry that has been exhibited in have a form of direct accountability, when in fact we the noble Lord’s speech, because this will be an occasion do not. when the House will need to come together to improve the Bill and try to find common ground where we can What matters above all else is the principle that find it, while accepting the principle of directly elected Sir Robert Peel sought to enshrine in his version of political oversight of the police. policing—to recognise always that: I return to stressing the word “oversight” because “The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and the bottom line for all of us—certainly for me, as disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it”. someone who has sought to exercise in the best way that I could the role and responsibilities of Police Those words are worth repeating. Those of us in this Minister—is that we must safeguard at all costs the Chamber who have been politicians know that for us operational independence of the police. That is the the test is always visible action. That is, frankly, the bottom line. That is absolutely vital if we are to great danger of some of what is proposed, unless you maintain the best traditions of British policing and to properly resource the role of panel and commissioner uphold the rule of law. alike, because all our officers—those noble Lords who have had operational responsibility for the police—will As we do so, we need, of course, to understand that tell us that the real test of efficiency is the test that political oversight brings with it some real advantages, Robert Peel set out. We need to ensure, as we take this because we would not have seen the reforms that there matter forward, that it is the Peelian concept that is have been in policing in this country over the past supported and upheld rather than any other. 20-odd years if politicians on all sides of the House and of all political parties had not been pushing and working for the sort of reforms that have made our 7.57 pm policing now so much better than it was 20 years ago. I pay tribute to the police, and to a number of noble Lord Blencathra: My Lords, it is with more trepidation Lords who sit in this House who have exercised than usual that I seek to make my maiden speech on responsibility as operational chief officers of police, this Bill. Not only am I still in awe of the glorious for the way in which they have taken the police forward history of this Chamber and the illustrious noble in the course of some very difficult times and in the Lords who have preceded me in this place, and those face of some difficult and hard cases that have exposed who are currently serving, but I am deeply conscious real failures on the part of the police. It would be a of the fact that this House has at present noble Lords tragedy if we were to go backwards as an inadvertent with a total of 250 years’ service in the office of result of the proposals in the Bill. constable—from a president of the Police Superintendents’ I want to make two remarks on matters to which we Association to chief constables, Metropolitan Police will need to return in Committee, and I pay tribute to commissioners and senior inspectors of constabulary, the two maiden speeches that we have heard this some with bravery awards. afternoon—those of the noble Baronesses, Lady I was privileged to work with some of these noble Berridge and Lady Newlove. They have touched on Lords in the four years that I was Police Minister in two areas in which policing has been found to have the Home Office—the most satisfying, difficult, but failed: diversity and ethnic minorities, and victims and enjoyable post that I ever held in government. Indeed, their families. The two speeches were exemplars, in I so much enjoyed working with the splendid members their different ways, of what maiden speeches should of the police service, of all ranks, that I declined to be, and were a timely reminder of the need to ensure, leave my post on promotion, but stayed until the as we debate the Bill, that in the exercise of the electorate forcefully removed me in 1997. functions of police commissioner and the composition Before turning to the Bill, I wish to express my of the panels we must make sure that victims and appreciation of the extent and depth of welcome that I ethnic minorities have their concerns taken into account. have received from noble Lords on all sides of the I certainly hope that we will return to that issue in House, and the extraordinary help given to me daily Committee. by the doorkeepers. As an ex-Chief Whip in the other 179 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 180

[LORD BLENCATHRA] is less than 0.5 per cent of local police funding. Of place, I thought that I had seen everything; but nothing course, that is additional money that we are promised; can prepare one for the genuine warmth of welcome it will not come out of the police settlement. Elsewhere, that a new Member receives in this House. money is wasted. We can free up resources for the I support this Bill because it goes a long way front line by speeding up the demise of the National towards getting national politics out of policing and Policing Improvement Agency, which spent £37 million lets chief officers concentrate on local priorities. Let on consultancy fees in the past two years alone. It us not kid ourselves: politics has been in policing for performs essential services such as maintaining the many years, and some of the ablest politicians I met police national computer homes—whatever number were chief constables who were even better than the we have now—and the national DNA and fingerprint generals. However, this Bill concentrates any politics databases, which should be put into a trust company into the person of the locally elected police commissioner owned by all the police forces. Bramshill should be and reduces substantially Home Office political under Home Office control and the task of promoting interference. I have been through six general elections best practice should be given back to Her Majesty’s and I know that the electorate will not vote capriciously, Inspectorate of Constabulary. whimsically or erratically on things that matter to HMIC is one of the finest examples of the police them—and local policing matters. We do the electorate and Home Office family. It has the most highly trained a disservice if we think otherwise. In my opinion, police officers in the United Kingdom, who visit all neither of the voting systems proposed in Clause 57 forces regularly and know what is happening on the will deliver extremists as police commissioners. ground. Yet the role of the NPIA was expanded to do The old-fashioned concept of the balanced three-legged what HMIC can do a dash sight better. When we stool—the tripartite relationship of independent chief consider in Committee Clauses 84 to 90 on the functions constables, strong police authorities footing the bill of HMIC, I hope that we can make it clear that in and the Home Office giving a bit of advice and addition to inspecting forces and detecting strengths guidance—is as mythological as the storyline of and weaknesses, HMIC will be the key body, “Midsomer Murders”. It has long gone. The Home “identifying good practice and sharing experiences from within Office dictates too much local policing from Whitehall, the service”. with a plethora of targets and reporting back. The That is a quotation from the NPIA website on one of police authority is an anonymous body, not accountable its main activities. I suggest that considering all the to the electorate, and chief constables are first in the functions that the NPIA performs with regard to firing line when local politicians are unhappy about improving police efficiency, there is nothing that HMIC any aspect of policing in their neighbourhood. cannot do better, and at much lower cost—and from We are told these days that all politics is local. That my experience, it would be done by a body that is is a good thing. The Bill inserts an elected police respected, feared slightly and utterly independent. commissioner between the electorate, with their aspirations I have tried noble Lords’ patience for too long and grievances, and chief constables, who have to already and I shall save my other points for Committee. deliver neutral, local policing. The policing panel of I simply conclude with this point. If your Lordships elected local authority councillors, the policing plan think that the opinions I have expressed are right, they and all the consultation involved with police should support the Bill. If, on the other hand, noble commissioners ensure that local priorities are addressed Lords think that I am utterly wrong, that my judgment at that level. Chief constables should not then be is flawed and that I cannot be trusted, it is absolutely dragged into political considerations. How many hours vital that your Lordships support the Bill, to prevent have chief constables spent in agonising over press politicians like me being in charge of the police in releases on their funding settlement from the Government, future in the Home Office. and in trying to balance gentle criticism of the Government for not giving them enough money with trying to 8.06 pm appear a champion of local interests? That should be Lord Dear: My Lords, I warmly endorse the the job of elected police commissioners, not of neutral congratulations that have been extended to the noble chief constables. Rather than introduce politics for the Baronesses, Lady Berridge and Lady Newlove, on first time, in my opinion the Bill takes out national their maiden speeches. I also associate myself with the politics and puts in local priorities. remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, identifying The first clause that I looked at concerns repeals. I the two essential elements of their very different but was delighted to see that Home Office target-setting equally powerful speeches. powers are removed, with the exception of the power It is my pleasure and honour, by tradition, to to set a strategic policing requirement on national congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. What security grounds. There was no harm in the past in the an appropriate title David Maclean chose when he was Home Office setting a few key targets for violent ennobled. Those like me who have tramped over the crime, burglary et cetera, but the excessive number of high fells and mountains of the Lake District will targets set in recent years means that this power should already know Blencathra. It is a massive, whaleback not be left on the statute book to be potentially abused fell that stands alongside Skiddaw—or “Skidda”, as in future. he prefers to pronounce it—overlooking Keswick and When I look at the £50 million cost of electing guarding the northern edge of the lakes, close to the police commissioners, even if it were £100 million, I Scottish border at which it glowers. He knows the would compare it to the total police budget of £13.8 billion scene well, for it is in the heart of his old parliamentary this year. The cost of elected commissioners at £50 million constituency. 181 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 182

If mountains have characters, and they probably I sympathise with their position, but the fact remains do, Blencathra exudes many of the qualities that the that many others do not perform up to scratch or noble Lord brought to high office in the other place: nearly well enough. Perhaps it is time to revise our certainty, dependability, a steadfast adherence to high current arrangements, which, as we have already heard, principles—the pun there is deliberate—and a rock-solid have been largely in their present form for almost determination to do the right thing at all times. I 50 years, while society has changed immensely in the admired him for all that and for other qualities as well. past half-century. In any case, I have to say that it is As most noble Lords know, he comes widely experienced difficult to fault a proposal that seeks to create a direct in the business of the other place and in the workings channel between the man in the street on one hand of government. He was an assistant government Whip, and the chief police officer on the other—something and later opposition Chief Whip. He was a Parliamentary that clearly does not exist at present. Secretary in the old Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries I am much reassured that operational responsibility and Food and Minister of State at the Department of will continue to vest in the chief officer but, as Liberty the Environment. has emphasised to me and others in your Lordships’ I saw much of the noble Lord in the role that he House, the overriding requirement will be to defend a talked of earlier, when he was a Minister in the Home non-partisan, consent-based policing tradition. We Office, where his sensitivity to human issues, frank should be aware of the overriding tension that will integrity, clarity of thought and determination to cut exist in the proposed new system, which is that while through the dross to reach the kernel of the problem chief police officers will always be answerable, as they were refreshing and welcome. I am sure that we shall are now, to the courts, the new commissioners will see more of that in your Lordships’ House. If there ultimately be answerable to the ballot box. It is that was a complex issue that David Maclean had in hand, tension that we should keep in mind throughout the you knew that it would be very well handled. His various stages of this Bill. Therein lies the potential elevation to the peerage was met with universal acclaim. for the law of unintended consequences to apply and it We all knew that he would contribute at a very high is at the root of much of the disquiet that has been level and we have not been disappointed tonight. Far evidenced today in your Lordships’ House. from it—his maiden speech was a model of its kind. It Like others, I want considerable reassurance that was succinct, apposite, humorous, forward-looking the Bill will be constructed in such a way that single-issue and wise. In short, it was brilliant. It is a great privilege politics do not encroach into this field. I go no further and pleasure to follow him in this Second Reading than that, as the point has been well made already. debate, to congratulate him on behalf of the House on Like others, I want reassurance that a proper balance his speech today, to welcome him formally to his place will be maintained between local issues and national in your Lordships’ House and to wish him well in the requirements, and most important, as most speakers future. have identified, that the police function does not become I declare an interest: I, too, was a police officer, for a political football. The eagerly awaited protocols that around 40 years. A moment of light humour occurs to the Government have promised will do much to assuage me in a rather serious debate. There is an old adage doubts on those scores; I, too, look for their early that you can never find a police officer when you want publication. one—but here you have seven under one roof. All of What about hire and fire? It is an area for the them are retired and unable to cause any more damage closest attention. I applaud the move to allow a chief to society than they did before. I intend to be brief officer to select his own deputy and assistants. That because most of what I wanted to say necessarily has has been necessary for a long time, but when appointing been said already. I intend to take a close interest in a new chief officer, what advice and supervision will a the progress of this Bill in your Lordships’ House. I commissioner receive, and from whom? Even more am, for example, very interested in the licensing proposals important, when a commissioner considers the dismissal and in tents on Parliament Square, but today I, too—and of a chief officer, what checks will be instituted to I do not apologise for this—want to address the proposals prevent a dismissal that is ill judged, unjustified or, at in Part 1 concerning commissioners. worst, a malicious dismissal sought for political reasons? When I read the proposals concerning police and In July last year I sought reassurance from the Minister crime commissioners in the policy review document that the Home Secretary would retain some residual Policing for the People, which was published two or oversight of the function of dismissing a chief officer, three years ago, I was unimpressed and underwhelmed. but no such oversight is contained in the Bill at present. I believed that it was all too much like the east coast of Relationships between the commissioner and the America, too prescriptive and frankly politically too local authorities in the area will be crucial. Some dangerous. Since then, there has been a good deal of Members have talked about that this afternoon. How discussion with interested and concerned parties and I will the financial arrangements work in practice and am now very much more relaxed about the Bill that what realistically will be the role of the police advisory has emerged and, quite against the seeming trend in panel? Can it be truly effective or will it prove to be your Lordships’ House this afternoon, I am confident merely an appendage? There is much more, but I do enough to give it support—qualified support, but not intend to go into it. Time is pressing and we have support nevertheless—at this juncture. heard much already. It is true that some existing police authorities operate I approach the subsequent stages of this Bill in your very well, and their members and supporters will Lordships’ House optimistically. I hope that what I see understandably feel aggrieved at the proposed changes. is a bold attempt to begin to modernise the police 183 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 184

[LORD DEAR] Submarine applied for a licence to sell drink with its service in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, sandwiches. I have drawn the attention of the noble mentioned. I hope that it will re-establish public confidence Baroness, Lady Wilcox, who is the Minister responsible, and the respect that, sadly, has waned over recent to the fact that, under the transferring of local post years and that it will put in place a cornerstone on offices, they, too, are being granted alcohol licences. I which other initiatives can be based. Those initiatives have sent a photograph of a local one where the could and should include, as has been said, the structure window is piled high with alcohol, even though the of the service, a crucial new approach to establishing post office shop is immediately next to an off-licence high-quality leadership and increased economical and within 50 yards on either side are two major collaboration between forces. All those and more cry supermarkets selling alcohol. out for attention. I believe that, if properly handled, I freely knowledge that some of the responsibility this Bill could be that crucial first step towards a for those changes has its origin in the Licensing Acts 2003 thoroughly modernised police service. and 2005. Some of us on these Benches were unhappy with what was being passed by our Government then. 8.17 pm It cannot be denied that the earlier legislation effected a major shift, with the presumption embedded in it Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, I shall limit that all new licence applications should be approved. my contribution to Part 2 of the Bill, which deals with I welcome the Government’s decision last autumn licensing. Given the way in which alcohol licensing to review local licensing arrangements and to seek to policy impacts on lifestyle, health and safety, I suspect rebalance the Licensing Acts so that there is a better that many members of the public will have stronger balance between applicants and the needs of the local feelings about the need for change on that issue than community. I welcome in general many of the changes about police commissioners. I was reinforced in that that the Minister has outlined in Part 2, where I will be view listening to the most moving maiden speech of prepared to give support, but I have concerns in a the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove. Access to and number of areas and I wonder whether we may not be availability of alcohol under the licensing regime affect embarking on a further policy of nice words and of all because abuse is often linked directly to violence, smoothing the hair but with no action to be seen. anti-social behaviour, community disturbance and disorder. Those trends regrettably have been growing I have two or three questions about what the Minister while other criminal statistics, as noble Lords have said in moving Second Reading. She said that there said, have been in decline. As the Minister said, in will be a lower evidential threshold; I understood her 2009-10 nearly half of all violent crime—almost a to say that it will be more difficult to get agreement million incidents—was fuelled by alcohol. She could that a licence should be granted. Am I correct and, if have gone on to say that more than a million hospital so, what will the threshold be? Will the Government admissions in 2009-10 were again alcohol related. define their objectives and set out how they expect Regrettably, that figure continues to rise. I understand people to try to attain them? that there are around 78,000 additional cases in hospitals Also, to my surprise, the Minister did not mention each year. An estimated 40 per cent of all accident and the fact that, in the earlier reviews and exchanges, it emergency attendances are alcohol related. was suggested that a public health factor could be Yesterday, the Brighton Argus—the daily paper from considered by committees when deciding whether licences the city where I live—published a major article in should be granted. The original idea was that PCTs which the city’s principal medical officer, Dr Tom would be imported into the process and would be Scanlon, claimed that the impact of alcohol was costing exercising a judgment. In the light of what is happening Brighton and Hove £100 million a year. That figure on the health service front, will PCTs be used for the includes the cost of treating people with illnesses interim? If not, has the proposal been totally dropped? caused by drinking excessively and of dealing with If it has not been totally dropped, who will take the alcohol crime. He called for a tougher stance on position of the PCTs? To what extent will they have providing alcohol licences in the city and for the low power to influence decisions taken locally? Will the cost of alcohol to be addressed. The Government have public health factor be of sufficient weight to ensure already been turning their attention to the latter, but I that an application is vetoed in an area where there are am not quite sure whether he will have been pleased already a fair number of licensed premises? with what has emanated from the Government so far. Finally, it is generally accepted that cost is an Dr Scanlon argued that the increased availability of important factor in all alcohol issues. This is being alcohol and the rise in the number of licences now addressed from a variety of standpoints and I know being granted were significant factors affecting Brighton that a strategy is to be drawn up later in the year on the and Hove overall. That applies especially to the growing approach to alcohol. A whole range of different strands number of licences being granted for off-licensed premises, will have to be brought together, but cost is, in the in many of which cheap drink is available. In Brighton, opinion of many people who know something about 73 per cent of A&E attendances on Friday and Saturday the subject, very much at the heart of the solution. evenings are substance or drink related, yet every week In the Commons, an amendment was introduced ever more drink licences are being granted. only very late in the process to devolve the setting of Licences are going, amazingly, to places such as fish licence fees from the centre to the local level. I would and chip shops and video hire shops. Innumerable like to know why it was done so late in the exercise. Is grocery stores are now being granted licences for that devolved power limited to a reimbursement of the drink. Licences are even going to sandwich shops— costs incurred in considering a licence, or will true 185 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 186 localism operate so that local authorities are given as necessary. They admitted, however, that support for permission to set the cost of licences at whatever they the measure was based on anecdotal evidence. Surely consider appropriate in the best interests of the community, that is insufficient grounds on which to base a change although that may exceed the cost of reimbursement of this nature, which will fundamentally alter the for the bureaucratic exercise? I should be grateful if Licensing Acts. the noble Baroness could answer those questions when Why should we reduce the evidence base for conditions she winds up. so that the need for them becomes a more subjective matter of opinion? That will only lead to conditions 8.25 pm being challenged more than currently, resulting in an increased burden on licensing committees, the courts Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I add my and licensed premises. The licensed trade believes that congratulations to all of today’s maiden speakers. We the current “necessary” test has worked well and has have heard some brilliant and moving speeches today. ensured that conditions attached to licences are fair Most speakers have concentrated their remarks on and address specific concerns, as opposed to being Part 1. I am in complete agreement with the views of unfair and disproportionate. Where is the evidence my noble friends on the issue of elected police otherwise? commissioners, but I focus my remarks on the extensive changes proposed to the Licensing Act 2003 under Then there is the question of objection to temporary Part 2, like the noble Lord, Lord Brooke. event notices. Previously, the police could object only on crime prevention grounds. Now, they and the The genesis of and authority for the current proposals environmental health authorities will be able to object in Part 2 are contained in the section of the coalition on the basis of any of the four licensing objectives, agreement headed “Crime and Policing”, and the and licensing authorities will be able to impose conditions. statements: Temporary event notices are largely used by community “We will overhaul the Licensing Act to give local authorities groups. Allowing objections to temporary event notices and the police much stronger powers to remove licences from, or refuse to grant licences to, any premises that are causing problems. could inadvertently affect a huge range of events, such … We will permit local councils to charge more for late-night as community events, village fetes and charity fundraising licences to pay for additional policing”. events. Where is the justification for these changes? There is also, however, a statement later in the agreement: Where is the evidence that these additional powers of “We will cut red tape to encourage the performance of more objection are needed? Are we just creating more live music”. bureaucracy for community groups for no purpose? That encouraged me earlier this year to introduce the What price the big society and local initiative? Live Music Bill as a Private Member’s Bill. Then we have the early morning restriction orders. I have been in strong agreement with those who The ministerial foreword and the Government’s response want to stamp out alcohol abuse in our town centres. I to the consultation on the Bill recognise and acknowledge live in the inner city and share many of the views of that the majority of premises are well run businesses. the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, but I have strong concerns Then we have the early morning restriction orders that about some of the provisions in the Bill, some of contradict that, in so far as businesses that have applied which relate to the impact on the performance of live for and been granted hours beyond midnight—until music, but others of which are more general in nature 1 am or 2 am, for example—will be penalised through concerning the regulatory burden they impose. Although no fault of their own if such orders are imposed. They some aspects of Part 2 are very welcome, its provisions will simply be swept up in a requirement to cease to seem to go well beyond the bounds of the coalition trade at midnight. agreement. What exemptions will there be from EMROs? It is Let me take some of the proposals in turn. First, important that such exemptions also recognise best there is the vicinity test. The current vicinity test for practice and social responsibility initiatives, rather making representations will be removed, and any party than being solely based on premises type. This would will be able to object to a live music event if they are ensure that well run businesses that would not otherwise located in the licensing authority area. A person will qualify for an exemption are not being unduly penalised no longer be required to be an interested person in by the provisions. Such a blanket measure in itself order to object. Why? What mischief has been detected risks large numbers of customers coming out on to the which must be cured by these provisions? As was clear, street at the same time, just like the bad old days. the proposed removal received a majority-negative Would it not be more practical to tackle those premises response in the consultation. Respondents of all kinds which are the source of the problem rather than suggested that that proposal could lead to a rise in penalising responsible premises? vexatious complaints and give disproportionate influence I move on to the late night levy. A large number of to non-local individuals. trade organisations are particularly concerned about Secondly, in Clause 110, entitled, “Reducing the the untargeted nature of the proposed levy for late burden: premises licences”, we have the proposed reduction night premises. The power can only be applied across a of the evidence required for the attachment of licence licensing authority district as a whole, rather than a conditions, so that they are “appropriate” rather than specific area, and its untargeted nature means that “necessary”. During Committee in the other place, the many responsible businesses will be caught. Government justified the lowering of the evidence test A late night levy can be imposed irrespective of from necessary to appropriate on the grounds that whether a bar is a source of disturbance. Ultimately, it some local authorities feared that a particular condition is unfair that any licensed premises operating in a or step that they sought to take would not be regarded responsible manner should have to pay such a charge 187 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 188

[LORD CLEMENT-JONES] My concern about Clause 154 is that it adds a when the best course of action would be specifically to second layer of legal process to an already stringent tackle the irresponsible operators, or indeed individual procedure to arrest and prosecute those suspected of members of the public who cause problems. Is it not war crimes. The clause requires any potential case for patently unfair, as was pointed out in Committee in arrest to be referred not only to the magistrates, as is the other place, to impose a charge on a business the case at the moment, but to the DPP before any which may be 20 miles away from the source of the magistrate can issue a warrant. problem? As the trade associations point out, it is vital For those who are perhaps unfamiliar with the that there are appropriate exemptions and discounts background, very briefly, it is this. The UK Government, on the levy for recognised best practice and social under their universal jurisdiction obligations, can and responsibility schemes. should facilitate the arrest and questioning of any Finally, businesses in the sector are concerned about person suspected of grave offences, such as hijacking, the cost implications of late amendments tabled by the hostage taking, torture and/or grave war crimes. The Government on fees—a matter referred to by the principle of universal jurisdiction extends even to noble Lord, Lord Brooke—without any adequate those non-UK nationals suspected of grave offences explanation for their decision or impact assessment. committed outside the UK. Any prosecution however In the event that fees are to be set locally by licensing is dependent on the consent of the DPP, thus the two authorities, there should be a national cap on the events, arrest and prosecution, are distinct. Clause 154 levels that may be charged. A precedent for this is now conflates these two procedures by requiring all contained in the Gambling Act 2005 with regard to a the evidence previously dealt with by magistrates to cap on fees for gaming licences, and it appears to have come before the DPP before any decision on arrest can worked well. take place. My overriding concern is that all these proposals Clearly, there are limitations to these procedures, in will add considerably to the regulatory burden of particular that of diplomatic immunity.By long-standing business without a corresponding impact on crime agreement those in senior government positions are prevention. protected from criminal investigation and/or prosecution. The Association of Licensed Multiple Retailers There is also a degree of immunity for former government estimates that the average cost per pub will be in the Ministers. order of £2,000 to £5,000, but this could double when reform of annual fees is taken into account. It complains, In addition to this convention of immunity, there justifiably, that this is yet another cost burden imposed are many other obstacles to the successful prosecution on the trade at a time when the Government are of war criminals, which include the reluctance of the seeking to encourage growth and job creation. The police to act upon information more often provided measures introduce significant additional costs for by human rights groups, the slowness of reaction those trading responsibly beyond midnight in particular, allowing suspects to avoid arrest, and the lack of what and introduce uncertainty by increasing the likelihood is perceived to be incontrovertible evidence of crimes that licences will be refused or reviewed with no account against humanity. The new clause presupposes that taken of their previous trading history or their good the DPP might require an even higher standard of relationship with the community. Indeed, as the proof, creating an almost impossible task for NGOs. Government’s own regulatory impact assessment makes In the past 10 years, there have been 10 applications clear, the net effect of these reforms will see licences for the arrest of suspected perpetrators of serious refused, revoked and additional conditions imposed, crimes and only two of those have resulted in the with more restrictive outcomes of appeals and hearings. issuing of actual warrants. The human rights organisation What evidence is there that all this extra regulation Redress, of which I was a director many years ago, is needed? Are we not meant to be a deregulatory makes it clear in its report that senior district judges Government? Instead it will significantly add to the take great care in determining whether the high threshold burden of business. I took the liberty of looking at the of evidence, liability and jurisdiction has been met and business department’s website to see how the “one in, that no immunity applies. one out” rule applied. I do not see where the “one out” The evidence therefore suggests that the current comes in for every regulation imposed by this Bill. I system enables the judiciary to filter out any potential wait to be enlightened by the Minister, but is not this abuse—a threat the Government cite as one of the very Bill, in the way it has been put into effect—unless reasons for introducing the involvement of the DPP at the Home Office is exempted in some shape or form the initial stages of any potential prosecution that we from the need to deregulate—contrary to government are today discussing. One cannot view this system as it policy? I very much look forward to hearing the exists today as anything but a responsible one. So the Minister’s response to that. question arises: why it is necessary to add another level of permission? The arguments put forward by 8.35 pm the Government focus on the fact that any threat of Baroness D’Souza: My Lords, it is very good to be arrest prevents those with whom the Government able to contribute to a debate that has included three such wish to engage risking travel to the UK. distinguished maiden speeches. I extend congratulations One understands that any Government, including to the authors of those speeches. that of the UK, wish to avoid embarrassment, and I should like to focus on Clause 154 in Part 4, but certainly to avoid at all costs the arrest of former with a viewpoint somewhat different from those expressed Government Ministers in the absence of sound evidence. by the two noble Lords who addressed that clause. But as I hope I have shown, the current system is 189 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 190 pretty tough and has not resulted in a flood of arrests of veto over a chief constable’s plans? Will the or prosecutions; in fact, quite the contrary. The clause appointment and removal of chief officers continue to about which I have concerns in effect introduces a be fair and independent? Will the security clearance of policy that will provide a discretionary extension of the police and crime commissioners be adequate for current immunities to categories of persons outside them to receive full and frank briefings on sensitive the established rules, and in doing so it undermines, to matters of security and criminal intelligence? say the least, the principle of universal jurisdiction to I believe that the transfer of responsibility for the which the UK Government are committed and, as a Met from the Home Secretary to the mayor have been consequence, contributes to a politicisation of the a real success. I remember a wonderful man called judicial process. The result is that the UK could well Donald Grant, chief of public relations at the Home come to be seen as a country friendly—even more Office in the days when Lord Whitelaw was Home friendly, perhaps—to those suspected of war crimes. Secretary, once saying to me, as a journalist asking Instead, one would wish that the Government would why something I was going to write about had not bring in measures to enhance and make more effective been done, “You know, Mark, when Willie is dealing the current system by providing more resources to the with the Met, he is treading on eggshells”. That is not police and the CPS in order to pursue cases and by a healthy relationship. Perhaps one of the worst examples developing clear and coherent policies to make the was in July 1982 when a man got into the Queen’s UK a no-go area for perpetrators of heinous human bedroom in Buckingham Palace. The commissioner at rights abuses. the time refused to resign, as I personally believe he should have done. 8.40 pm My noble friend Lord Howard has pointed out that Lord Marlesford: My Lords, this has been a remarkable the membership of local police authorities, even the occasion in the House of Lords. The depth and experience chair, is sometimes unknown to 99 per cent or 99.9 per of the speeches has been terrific, and I am so glad to cent of the local population; I cannot remember which have been here to listen to three moving maiden speeches. figure he used. That is a real democratic deficit. Even I congratulate the Government on introducing an MEPs have a better level of recognition than that. The important Bill that in many ways is very radical. I new police and crime panels will be very important. I think it will be a big step forward. I should say suspect that they really could be smaller than the straightaway that a lot of work has been put into it, 17 members there are on police authorities, and in unlike some of the other pieces of legislation that have many ways, although they will be appointed from been put before us in recent months which have been local authorities, they will often effectively act as ill digested and has caused a great deal of grief all the deputies for the commissioner him or herself. way round. The maintenance of operational independence does I, too, want to focus on Part 1 covering the proposals not mean that a commissioner’s involvement with for elected police and crime commissioners and to say operational efficiency is in any way inappropriate. For something about Part 3 covering the proposals for example, the police can sometimes be quite clumsy in Parliament Square. We have all had many representations the way in which they handle traffic incidents, showing on the Bill. I found the ACPO submission helpful, and little regard for the inconvenience to road users from I have had the advantage of a discussion with the chief long road closures and diversions. It is perfectly proper constable of my own home county force in Suffolk and desirable that commissioners should be able to and a discussion with the chair of the Suffolk police reflect consequent public irritation on such matters. I authority. believe that neighbourhood watch schemes are important There are four reasons, most of which have been and have a real contribution to make, yet quite often referred to, why elected commissioners for forces outside the police regard them as just a nuisance. London would be a huge advance. The precedents in Another really important point, which I mentioned the United States, although totally rubbish at one earlier in my four reasons, is that the commissioner point, have in general been helpful. Those in the UK should be able to represent the views of the police certainly have been. Secondly, people do not feel that when it is difficult for them to do so themselves. For they have an individual whom they can hold to account, example, when there is ill-founded criticism of the use to whom they can make representations on their of profiling for policing, even though the shortage of expectations or occasionally express their unhappiness resources for the police means they have to use them with the performance of the police. Thirdly, the police efficiently, an elected commissioner speaking for the should be held accountable, not in terms of their taxpayer should be able to mount an effective and individual operations but for their overall operational brisk defence of the police. I noticed last week that the efficiency. Fourthly, and it has not been referred to Chairman of British Airways, Sir Martin Broughton, sufficiently, the police often need a local person who talked a lot of sense on that issue in relation to the has the democratic authority to speak up on their scrutiny of passengers. behalf. Finally, I want to say a brief word on the proposals Let me also acknowledge some of the concerns that for Parliament Square in Part 3. I hope we can all the police have over this change. Will there be interference agree that Parliament Square is the most appropriate with operational independence? Will an elected place for public demonstrations to parliamentarians, commissioner have a party political agenda, a manifesto the public and the media on any matter which is of commitment or the need to demonstrate personal public concern. But it should be a vibrant and fluid energy or achievement? Will the police and crime place, not a squalid camp with faded and tattered panel advising the commissioner have too many powers banners or a precious space hogged by some for 191 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 192

[LORD MARLESFORD] demonstrate in Parliament Square, if they do it peacefully months or even years. I am afraid the Bill as drafted, and non-violently, they have a fundamental right to do with its five pages of legislation, is not the best way that. It is no good having the Human Rights Act or forward. In February 2011, I published a Private Member’s abiding by the European Convention on Human Rights—as Bill, the Parliament Square (Management) Bill, which every Minister says he will do on the front of a Bill—if proposes in four clauses and on only two pages a all we are going to do is prosecute innocent people. I simpler and, I believe, more elegant solution. Under have been on the prosecuted side. I have been on civil my Bill, there would be a Parliament Square committee rights marches in America and on student demonstrations made up of all the bodies responsible for the square. It here. I marched against the Vietnam War. I will not would have the power and the obligation to remove forget my past, but I still think that the Bill should from Parliament Square each night at any time between retain Clause 142 and junk Clauses 143 to 150. midnight and 6 am all litter, detritus or other debris, We do not need a management committee or a including tents and sleeping equipment. I believe within clean-up operation. None of that is necessary. If noble two or three weeks we would have a transformed Lords watched tourists going by as often as I have—I square. I propose in Committee to introduce some do not have a car, so I often walk round these premises amendments to the Government’s Bill. I have talked and streets—they would see that tourists are fascinated to a number of colleagues on all sides of the House that the British political system allows someone to abuse and I feel I have some hope of getting some support. it right in front of Parliament. We should be proud of that. It should be a world heritage site more than 8.49 pm anything else. I do not know how much it has cost us Lord Desai: My Lords, it is a great pleasure to to chase this poor single man around the courts and so follow the noble Lord with whom I came into your forth. Since the calculus is how many police officers Lordships’ Chamber 20 years ago. There is an iron law we can employ, I am sure that we could have employed of British politics that the Home Office introduces the 10 or 15 police officers for the costs that we have maximum number of Bills in every Parliament. Every incurred. Home Office Bill is large and very complex, aims to I urge the Government even now to go back to their cure the problems caused by previous Home Office libertarian principles. The Liberal Democrat Party Bills, and goes on to create new problems which has libertarian principles. The Conservatives were subsequent Home Office Bills will have to cure. I do supposed to have libertarian principles once upon a not think that we have seen any break in that iron law time when I knew them. There is no problem and no so far. harm is being caused. We should leave people alone I shall speak only to Part 3. As far as policing goes, and let them demonstrate. It is the oldest freedom and my experience is of being in Grosvenor Square in one that we have fought for over many centuries. We March 1968 and being chased by police horses rather can once again get back to the sanity of the Public than being on a police horse chasing demonstrators. Order Act 1986. When it was passed it was perfectly From that point of view, I would have much preferred adequate, and it had long been adequate before the this Bill to have got us back to the Public Order previous Government, I am sad to say, panicked and Act 1986 and done nothing more. It will be 10 years on brought in this SOCPA legislation, which is completely 2 June 2011 that Mr Brian Haw has been demonstrating over the top. in Parliament Square. He has been there since before There is still a chance to withdraw from all this 9/11 and before the Iraq war. In the mean time Parliament nonsense and keep Clause 142, which allows for the has—if I may use unparliamentary language—disgraced Public Order Act to come back into operation. That is itself in its behaviour towards what is, after all, a more than enough. It would be a proud tribute to the non-violent demonstration. It is squalid; it is dirty; it libertarian traditions of the coalition, while it lasts. embarrasses us. But that is the nature of freedom. Freedom is not designed to have people demonstrate 8.57 pm in morning suits, except maybe to go to the royal Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: My Lords, I am part of wedding, for which even the Prime Minister has had to the coalition, which I hope will last. I want to address agree to wear a morning suit. But the whole point of my remarks both to universal jurisdiction, in Section 154, the freedom to demonstrate is that it will be embarrassing and to licensing—to the universal and the local, if I and troublesome. If we do not grant that freedom, can put it that way. No one is trying to stop universal what are we here for? What is the parliament of a free jurisdiction for the prosecution of suspected war criminals. country for if it cannot tolerate a little bit of noise? That case was made very clearly by the noble Baroness, And it is much less noise than the House of Commons Lady Ramsay, by my noble friend Lord Carlile and by makes itself—but that is beside the point. Is a little bit the Minister when she spoke at the beginning of the of noise so inconveniencing to Members of Parliament debate, so I thought that I would just stand up and say that we have to ban this, persecuting and prosecuting that I agreed. Luckily for me, the noble Baroness, this man for years on end, and for what purpose? He is Lady D’Souza, added some comments that I can not breaking any law. He is not smashing glass windows elaborate on. in Great George Street or anything like that. He is just The noble Baroness pointed out that we do not standing there saying, “It is shocking that 10,000 people, want a two-tier system. I am sorry that she is not in or whatever, have died”. her place, but we already have a two-tier system. If I I supported the Iraq war. I have no compunction in talk about private prosecutions, the next stage is the that. I am a humanitarian warmonger, as I have often Attorney-General. The two-tier is already there, so she called myself. But I still feel that if someone wants to is not correct in that assumption. 193 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 194

The usual course at the moment is that when someone from where people can make objections. At first glance, is accused, the police investigate and pass the file to that is correct, because anyone within the local authority the Crown Prosecution Service. If the Crown Prosecution area can object now, which is an improvement. However, Service feels that there is a realistic chance of conviction local authority areas have boundaries. In my own area and a prosecution is in the public interest, it will of London, there is a boundary for instance between charge the accused with the crime. It has powers of the borough of Barnet and the borough of Brent, arrest while it investigates. That is the case now and called the Edgware Road. There is a pub I can think of that will be the case after and if the Bill is passed. on the Brent side of the road that causes great trouble, In answer to the question raised by the noble Baroness, which, indeed, is subject to a licensing appeal and Lady D’Souza, although she is not here to hear the hearings. However, the people on the other side of the answer, if she had followed the case in the House of road, in Barnet, under the current draft of the Bill, Commons she would know that, in answer to one of would not be able to object, because although they live my Liberal Democrat colleagues, the Minister gave in the vicinity, they live in a neighbouring licensing extra reassurance that the Crown Prosecution Service authority area. I hope to bring forward a minor would be given sufficient resources to give exactly amendment to include that in Committee. what the noble Baroness is complaining about, which The Bill itself, as far as licensing is concerned, is is not happening now. dealing very much with dotting the “i”s and crossing the “t”s. However, the trouble is that we have moved in The difference in a private prosecution is that the this country towards the free availability of alcohol test is much lower—a prima facie case—and the magistrate under the licensing legislation, which did not exist is shown only the alleged evidence for the prosecution before. Licensed establishments tended to close at and nothing at all from the defence. There has never 11.30 pm, perhaps with a half-hour drinking-up time. been a private prosecution for universal jurisdiction We were told that in order to stop the inebriated ending with a conviction. There has never been a trial. persons—let us call them drunks—coming out of the Comments were made that there were only 10 cases, of pubs at 11.30 pm in one horde, we would lessen the which only two had arrest warrants, but they never load by spreading it from 11.30 pm to 12.30 am, 1 am, went to trial. 3 am and so on, and then it would be easier. Our So, at present, an arrest warrant is issued and the neighbours across the channel sit quietly at the tables person concerned is not informed, nor can he or she and drink their wine in a civilised fashion, or so we are defend themselves. The person foolish enough to come told. to our democracy is arrested, and then, currently, the The halcyon days of the pubs closing at 11.30 pm Attorney-General—the second tier, which the noble have now moved on to the pubs emptying out over a Baroness, Lady D’Souza, did not notice—will decide period of hours. During that period, those inebriated whether there is a realistic case to answer. people may be kept under control within the licensed The change effected by the Bill would be that establishment, but once they are outside, it is the someone can still be accused before an arrest warrant responsibility of the police. Local communities are is issued but the Director of Public Prosecutions would being treated very, very badly by the freeing up of have to agree that a prosecution should go forward. licensing laws. One noble Lord talked about licensed The change, which is very good for a democracy, is retailers selling alcohol. So many retailers—someone that you are taking out the politician—the Attorney- mentioned a fish and chip shop and someone mentioned General—and replacing them with the DPP, who is a post office—are extending their licensing hours and not a politician and who has given lots of assurances applying to sell alcohol that it is free for drinking not in the other place. When we spoke about this outside only within the pubs but in our streets. I believe that this Chamber, people asked me what the difference is that aspect of the Bill needs to be looked at again. and why someone should not be arrested by the magistrates’ court. The bottom line is that, under the current system, that person could spend two nights in 9.04 pm jail before the Attorney-General said that there was no Baroness Coussins: My Lords, I rise to add a few case and they were released. However, if there was a brief thoughts in relation to the provisions in Part 2 case—whether it is a Crown Prosecution Service arrest concerning the licensing offence of persistently selling or one that arose out of a private prosecution, supported alcohol to children. I will first declare some interests. I by the DPP—universal jurisdiction and all the things am a former chief executive of the Portman Group that follow would be there. The noble Baroness, Lady and a former member of the Alcohol Education and D’Souza, also said that there should be no politicisation Research Council. I currently work as a paid adviser of the process. I assure her that the DPP is not a on corporate responsibility to two drinks companies, politician—however, the Attorney-General is, and that whose names are listed in the register. I emphasise that aspect of the current system is being changed. I provide them with non-parliamentary advice and I now turn to the localism of the licensing section. that I have had no discussion about this Bill with Until the last two or three speakers spoke—the noble either company. Lords, Lord Brooke and Lord Clement-Jones—I thought The Bill would double the maximum fine imposed that this would break new ground and offer a little for persistently selling alcohol to children from £10,000 light relief from police commissioners. Part 2, which to £20,000. I have no problem in principle about a covers this issue, is pretty good apart from one point, £20,000 fine for this crime. After all, it is perfectly easy which I think is wrong—the Minister used the word to not break the law by always asking for reliable proof “vicinity” when she talked about widening the places of age and refusing to serve any young person who 195 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 196

[BARONESS COUSSINS] the Minister could tell the House why the offence of does not have it. The problem is that, even if the fine serving children has been singled out for increased were a million pounds, it would still be completely penalties but not the offence of serving drunks or of ineffective and meaningless unless the law were properly proxy purchase. Incidentally, I place on record my and rigorously enforced. There is no point in having a thanks to the Library researchers in your Lordships’ tough law if people think their chances of being House for providing me only yesterday with all the caught are minimal. Under the Licensing Act 2003, up-to-date figures that I have quoted this evening. the number of people taken to court for persistently If the Government’s intention is to rebalance the selling alcohol to children has been minuscule. It was Licensing Act, this must mean something in practice, eight people in 2008, of whom seven were found not just in terms of the theory of what the law says, guilty. In 2009, the last year for which figures are which remains meaningless if unenforced. Considerable available, this fell to only four people prosecuted and rebalancing could be achieved by the effective enforcement convicted. There have been no occasions to date in of the existing law on selling to children and to drunks. which the full £10,000 fine has been applied, and the But if more severe penalties are genuinely considered average fine is just £1,700, a very long way short of the to be justified—and I am not sure yet that we have proposed new maximum. heard that convincing case—could the Government at Could the Minister clarify the Government’s objective least be even-handed and apply the penalty upgrade to in proposing this clause? If it is to deter people from all the relevant offences that I have mentioned? the crime of selling alcohol to children, how do they expect to be taken seriously enough when the existing 9.12 pm law is so feebly enforced? Would it not be a more Lord Morris of Handsworth: My Lords, batting at effective strategy to ensure that the police, local authorities number 36 in the order for this debate, I can offer and trading standards officers have sufficient resources very little that is new. The House will have heard to conduct regular, rigorous and extensive test purchasing the collective experience of retired Metropolitan operations, accompanied by publicity and public commissioners and chief constables, and we will hear education, so that licensees were in no doubt that from past members of police authorities and many selling to children would be extremely high risk, putting others in the field of law enforcement. Many of the their licence, their livelihood and their reputation on contributions have been informed by first-hand experience the line? I am concerned that test purchasing is just the of policing and in the criminal justice system. I declare sort of multi-agency activity that will become vulnerable an interest in that for a year I chaired a public inquiry to budgetary cuts in the current economic climate. If into the professional standards and workplace practices the penalties, even if doubled, were never applied of the Metropolitan Police. I pause here to pay tribute because the law is barely enforced, we could end up to all those members of police authorities up and with neither the prevention that test purchasing provides down the country who gave evidence to my inquiry. nor the cure of the law for those who do offend. In the light of my experience of chairing the Morris I draw attention to another aspect of the existing inquiry, and having listened to the wealth of retired licensing law, which is the offence of buying alcohol chief officers and others, I ask myself whether our on behalf of children—often known as proxy purchase— police service is broken. My certain answer is no. Can where unscrupulous adults will buy alcohol to pass on it be improved? Of course, the answer is yes. Is this Bill to children, very often children who are not even the vehicle for that improvement? To that question, I known to them but who have stopped them in the conclude that the jury is out. What then is the added street outside licensed premises. Even though the incidence value of the policing Bill before us? What is the value of prosecution and conviction for this offence is still of replacing police authorities? We have argued over remarkably low, the numbers are much higher than for many years that democratic accountability is important illegal sales directly to children. In 2008, 42 people and it was said earlier in this debate that the missing were taken to court and 28 were convicted. In 2009, link was the election of the authorities. We must now the figures were 29 prosecutions resulting in 25 convictions. ask ourselves whether the elected police and crime This offence carries only a level 5 fine, which is a commissioners will fill that void and that vacuum. maximum of £5,000. Why is the Bill not also proposing How will an elected commissioner change the daily to double the fine for this offence or to put it on a par crime experience of the people in many of our with the offence of persistent direct sales to children? communities—those who live in St Pauls in Bristol, Many local authorities now recognise that the offence Toxteth, Brixton, and Handsworth in my home city? of proxy purchase is an increasingly significant source Will the citizens of these communities feel any safer of alcohol for the under-18s and are working hard because the commissioner is now elected? I fear not. I with retailers and the police in community alcohol ask these questions because these provisions will be partnerships to tackle it. measured by the experience of the citizens. That is Also absent from the Bill is any proposal to increase how the Bill will be tested and measured. the fine for serving customers who are already drunk. Perhaps the Minister can clarify for us the method This has been an offence for years but, again, the law of election because, as we read in the impact assessment seems to be virtually unenforced. In 2008, 17 prosecutions note from the Home Office, it is not necessarily going were made, resulting in just seven convictions. In 2009, to be first past the post, nor AV. Indeed, the note these figures fell to eight prosecutions and just six advises that elections will be held using a supplementary convictions. Most people in a town-centre pub on a vote system and will cost, as we have been told, some Friday or Saturday night will probably have witnessed £50 million over four years. The striking fact here is that many breaches of the law in 10 minutes. Perhaps that the SV system will cost by itself an additional 197 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 198

£5 million. Perhaps the Minister can also enlighten the about—professionals of what? They all look like House with a gentle tutorial on the SV system because politicians to me, except for two token independents it is not popularly understood, or indeed popularly appointed to the panels. For all the reasons given more promoted. I ask myself whether that £5 million might eloquently by others, I am very much against the make a tremendous difference to a number of officers— establishment of this elected police and crime front-line serving officers—who are leaving the service commissioner working in isolation. I cannot see how because of the budget cuts. an individual can do the work of an authority on his We look to our police chief officers not only to or her own. Who will do the committee work—the walk the beat, as they say, but to be trusted builders of staff? It is not what they are there for. Will he or she social capital in our communities. I doubt that the have a deputy? If there is no deputy, how on earth is elected commissioners will deliver the social capital, this going to run, not only if that person is away, but if reassurance on concerns, understanding and sensitivity they fall ill? The Minister said that the PCCs would be to our communities that are so vital if we are to cost-neutral. Maybe, but the PCPs can only have maintain cohesion in them. Our police service is not teeth, which she insisted they would have, if they are perfect by any means but it is a changing force that is provided with structure and substantial funding—in much more responsive to the public whom it serves. effect, mirroring the PCC’s office. This, of course, is The recent TUC demonstration, for example, was unnecessary. typical of the change taking place in our police services. Although our governance of policing in the Province They invited over 100 observers to be present in the is by no means perfect, some of what we do is perhaps control room to observe the demonstration, to give relevant. We have come from a long way behind, but advice and to be consulted. They are getting closer to now we are well ahead of these retrograde steps proposed the people and becoming much more accountable. in the Bill. Northern Ireland is the size of Yorkshire I am aware that elected commissioners, even by and our Assembly is equivalent to the Yorkshire council, another name, are common practice in the United to put it into perspective. Our Policing Board is the States. While I am not saying that everything that equivalent of a combination of the proposed PCC and happens in America is bad, what is good for American PCP, with, if you like, the PCC becoming our chairman. society and its community is not always good for However, although we have Assembly Members Britain. Politics and policing do not mix. Our police equivalent to councillors in England and Wales on our deserve our support; they do not need our politics. board, we also have independent members who most importantly outnumber the political members. Collectively, 9.18 pm they elect the chairman; it does not take much guessing to see that they will not elect a political one. We then Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, please forgive also have another body even closer to the communities: me, someone from Northern Ireland, for joining a district policing partnerships, which consist of councillors Second Reading debate on a Bill that is primarily in our case, although in England and Wales it might be about English and Welsh policing. I declare an interest parish council members—again, critically, with a larger as I was a member of the security forces in the Province number of independents than elected representatives. for many years and worked closely supporting the police, planning and patrolling with them frequently— The independents on both these bodies are appointed almost daily, sometimes—on behalf of Her Majesty’s to provide community balance. The Secretary of State Government. I was also a member of the first Northern appoints independents to the board, while the committee Ireland Policing Board, formed in response to the of the board appoints those on the district policing Patten report produced by the noble Lord, Lord Patten partnerships. I was on the first panel for appointing of Barnes. That Policing Board was in fact an enhanced independents to DPPs. In carrying out this task, we model of an English police authority. I hope that that had to take some of the following criteria, laid down experience justifies my giving an opinion in this case. in legislation, into consideration to provide balance: I come from an area that, sadly, through necessity, religion, gender, age, geographic location of people’s had the most politicised policing in Europe. Remember homes, the less able-bodied and the disadvantaged. that those opposing the Government shot and blew up We also had to include those who were victims. In her the police, the supporting security forces and many most moving maiden speech, the noble Baroness, Lady others as well. The Patten report and the consequential Newlove, brought up this requirement and the option Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 set in place of having victims represented and involved. Whether mechanisms to depoliticise the police and to make the that will come about, we wait to see. We have already force more acceptable and responsive to community got this in Northern Ireland. Perhaps the lesson is opinions. We now even have the ex-terrorists in that, rather than going far away to the US, where there government, encouraging their community to join the is a totally different scale and a totally different society, police. Sadly, I realise that a small number of their and where a lot of what goes on is quite questionable—the erstwhile colleagues are still killing and maiming, which, Policing Board made a lot of visits there—we should of course, we all condemn. try looking closer to home, taking examples that are built on our own culture. Why on earth is the coalition moving towards greater politicisation, rather than away from it? The Minister In respect of what I have said, in this Bill the said that the Bill would transfer power to communities coalition is tackling the issues from the top down and professionals. For the life of me, I do not see when it should be tackling them from the bottom up communities involved, except through local politicians. from the community. The declared aim is to provide I cannot even see the professionals whom she talks accountability and connection with the communities. 199 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 200

[VISCOUNT BROOKEBOROUGH] and it is this: basically, people feel that they do not Policing is about policing communities, especially the have enough influence over the decisions that affect minorities, and protecting them. Where in the Bill is them. the inclusion of ethnic minorities, equal gender Elected PCCs will offer a real say on how crime will representation, the aged, the less able-bodied, the be fought in local areas. I believe that PCCs, standing disadvantaged and the victims, among others? They on a manifesto that people can judge, working with simply do not appear. I just do not see that the Bill the police chief on a strategic plan to deliver what the solves the problems; in my view, it will make them people have voted for and setting the right budget so worse. that they have the money to do it, are a powerful There is a myth that you often hear that more response to what people feel they need now in our policemen on the street will not solve our problems. In political system. Northern Ireland during the Troubles, we had what The second piece of research that I looked at was amounted to saturation policing, with the support of more recent. It was research into crime and punishment, the military. As opposed to what we have now in my commissioned by my noble friend Lord Ashcroft. As area, where there are 14 policemen, there were up to your Lordships will know, he is the founder of 650 security force people—it was saturation. What we Crimestoppers and the chairman of its trustees. I have called ODC—ordinary decent crime—was at a very no idea what he thinks about elected PCCs; I do not at low level because of the presence on the street. I accept all want to suggest that he shares my view. However, that we cannot afford to do that here, but it is not true his research, although about public and police opinion that police on the beat do not inhibit crime. They do, on the proposed reforms to the justice system, was and we must find a way of getting them out of the striking for the unanimity of the police and the general stations and on to the beat. public in their views on crime and the remoteness of government. In other words, they shared a view on the 9.27 pm lack of local accountability. A key point from the findings of this research was: Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, in Committee “The public felt that what they saw as the failure of successive I plan to participate in debates about a range of issues, governments to act on their concerns about crime and punishment including Parliament Square, but today I will concentrate were due to politicians being unaffected by crime in their own on Part 1 of the Bill and the main issue of elected lives; the constraints of human rights law and the fear of being police and crime commissioners. accused of political incorrectness; the criminal justice system being staffed by unrepresentatively liberal individuals; and lack of I support the idea of elected PCCs because I believe money. Police officers felt mistakes were made because governments in the power of individual leadership. Yes, we will need paid more attention to theorists than to victims and practitioners”. strong candidates who are good communicators to As has been clear in the debate so far, some senior come forward with manifestos that are as realistic as police officers and former police chiefs are concerned they are ambitious, and we will need all the right about elected PCCs, particularly the risks of politicisation safeguards to protect the vital principle of police arising from ill-defined roles and responsibilities. I operational independence. If we get the detail of the understand the need for clarity. I have worked in an legislation right, though, I believe that elected PCCs environment where the distinction between strategic will create an opportunity to renew our fight against and operational issues is essential. I understand what crime in a way that unites the police and our citizens. can go wrong when that is not the case. Although I I am not a policing expert but I am interested in the have never worked in policing, I have some knowledge Bill and the proposal for elected PCCs for two reasons. of that. The evidence suggests that, once clarity is The first is an interest in the impact of crime, particularly achieved via the memorandum of understanding or antisocial behaviour and drug-related and drink-related the protocol that has been raised previously, agreement crime, on people’s morale and the ambitions that they on the strategy in pursuit of a shared goal will not be might have for themselves and their families. The hard to reach. The public and police will unite in their second is a general interest in people’s lack of confidence demand that elected police and crime commissioners in, and their frustration with, our political system. demonstrate that they are serious about listening to In preparing for the Bill and deciding whether or the public and working with the police to fight crime. not to participate in it, I did a lot of reading and Elected PCCs are radically different from what we research. That included all the research that was relevant have now. Some noble Lords have raised questions to the proposals in the Bill about PCCs. For me, other about piloting. I absolutely see that much effort will be evidence not directly about PCCs was more interesting needed to communicate to the public the effect of and useful in forming my views. First, in the context of PCCs and this change to raise awareness of and some work that I have been doing for the Fixed-term interest in elections. However, this is achievable. Indeed, Parliaments Bill, I have been reading a report published a nationwide campaign will build real momentum. in 2006 following an extensive study about declining The more I think about it, the more enthusiastic I am. participation and disillusion in the political system by Once support grows for elected PCCs so, too, will the Power commission, which was chaired by the public concern about some of the Lord Chancellor’s noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws. I do not justice reforms, particularly those that might reduce agree with all its recommendations but the analysis prisoner numbers. Hearing the public’s views on that that it offers about why people feel disengaged is very will be no bad thing. I support elected PCCs because interesting. The report’s central point—what it says they will offer stronger local leadership in the fight underlines a wide range of frustrations that people against crime. I look forward to the detailed scrutiny have—is important in the context of our debate today, and debates in Committee and on Report, which are 201 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 202 of course necessary. I will participate, in particular, in the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, the part relating to Parliament Square; there is need who, as all his colleagues knew, was an absolute pussycat for some amendments to that part of the Bill. However, in all such matters. It was much more about authority I have no hesitation in supporting the principle of the in relation to other elected individuals, all of whom Bill and the changes it proposes at this stage. would otherwise claim primacy in trying to set a general direction for the police force. Therefore, I 9.34 pm would have had no problems with that principle, but had I been elected directly to the office of chair of the Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, I declare an police authority, I would have been surrounded by an interest as a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority, effective governance structure. That would have made as vice-president of the Association of Police Authorities arbitrary decisions by myself, or inappropriate directions and as chair of the All-Party Group on Policing. to the chief officer of police, impossible. Fundamental to the model of British policing is the Most of the governance mechanisms that police notion of policing by consent, particularly in our authorities currently provide are swept away by the society, where the police are largely unarmed and must Bill. What is also lost is the visible answerability of rely on the good will and confidence of the citizens to the chief officer of police. At the last meeting of the carry out their duties effectively and sensitively. The Metropolitan Police Authority, the Met not only gave lifeblood of policing is information, and the reason and answered questions on its regular operational this information flows from the public to the police report and on the policing budget for the year but can be summed up in one word, trust—trust in the apologised to the family, present in the audience, of police to act fairly and with integrity, and trust in the Daniel Morgan, who was murdered in 1987 and whose police that the information will be used judiciously killers have not been brought to justice because, it is and without attracting retribution from anyone. alleged, of police corruption; made a statement about Without that trust, information stops and policing the delays in bringing Delroy Grant to justice for the becomes ineffective. To achieve this trust, you must attacks on elderly people in south London over many have accountability. Without accountability the police years; responded to questions about phone-hacking become a controlling force, an oppressive instrument and the News of the World; and heard from people in of powerful and self-interested groups. In parts of the the audience about the death of Smiley Culture who world this will be the military, in others local warlords, allegedly stabbed himself during a police raid. and in some, perhaps, the senior officers in the police Where would that happen under this Bill? How force itself. If policing is thus distorted or dictated to would the visible answerability of the police service by unrepresentative groups, the trust of the public is work under these proposals? The answer is that there is gone. The only possible result is a downward spiral no such mechanism. It may be that the Minister, in that manifests itself in corruption, organised crime response, will talk fondly about the proposed police and abuses of human rights. So, getting it right matters. and crime panels, and say that somehow they will be a But how confident can we be that the Bill does get it substitute. That would be nonsense. If that is the right? The drafting is certainly deficient. Take the argument she was planning to deploy, I suggest that centrepiece of the Bill—the creation of directly elected she does not do so. Those panels will not have authority police and crime commissioners. The dictionary tells over the chief officer of police, and they will not even you that a “commissioner” is “one who commissions”, have the power to require his or her attendance at and that “to commission” is, their meetings. Their remit is to scrutinise the elected “the act of procuring, committing or performing”. commissioner, or the MOPC in London. Those forums, So in England and Wales we are to have 41 directly by necessity, will be overtly party political, as one elected police and crime commissioners procuring, group of elected politicians seeks to score points over committing or performing crime. That is brilliant drafting. another elected politician. This is what will happen. It Of course, in London we are not going to get is not clear how the new arrangements will ensure that directly elected commissioners, partly because we already there is a balanced model of policing everywhere in the have two commissioners: the Commissioner of Police country. How will the national policing requirement be for the Metropolis and the Commissioner of the City enforced to ensure that every force plays its part in of London Police, who is responsible for a resident delivering effective policing to combat serious organised population of around 10,000, the size of a local crime and to counter terrorism? Yes, there will be government ward elsewhere in the capital. Instead, the a national policing requirement, but how is that to be corporation will continue in its own unique and, I have enforced? to say, rather opaque way, and the rest of the city will There are many other problems. For example, as have the “Mopsy”—the Mayor’s Office for Policing presently drafted, the Bill makes each chief officer of and Crime. Because we already have a directly elected police a “corporation sole”. This is intended to permit mayor, we will not have a directly elected individual in them to employ police staff. Leaving aside whether or charge of the police service; so instead the mayor will not this is a desirable objective—it is a function that appoint a deputy—to be called the deputy “Mopsy”—to could perfectly satisfactorily be carried out by police run the “Mopsy”. That is what the Bill says. and crime commissioners, and is currently carried out I have no problem with the principle of direct by police authorities—the function of this corporation election. Indeed, when I was the first chair of the sole is not effectively limited to this specific function, police authority in London I would have welcomed potentially allowing chief officers to enter into the additional authority that direct election would procurement contracts and detracting from the authority have given me—not, I hasten to add, in dealing with of police and crime commissioners. 203 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 204

[LORD HARRIS OF HARINGEY] crime commissioners might politicise the police force. The Bill also creates two statutory chief finance This is a thread that runs through the Bill. Many officers for each force—one for the police and crime human rights lawyers feel that Clause 154 could eventually commissioner’s office and one for the force itself. politicise the judiciary. We do not want either of those Having two corporations sole for each force will in things to happen. practice create two auditable bodies, two sets of accounts I will look briefly at the reasons that the Government and consequential cost and bureaucracy, along with a give for changing the law. It is said that politically blurring of lines of accountability—the exact antithesis motivated people wishing to obtain arrest warrants of what the Bill is supposed to achieve. There will be abuse the law. As we have heard, there have been more additional expense and duplication, with a worsening 10 such attempts in the past 10 years. In the two cases of accountability. where an arrest warrant was obtained from senior However sound or otherwise the intentions of this district judges, neither was effected because the people Bill, it fails to do what it says on the tin. The risk is concerned changed their plans to come to the UK. that it will weaken police accountability; that the This was confirmed by Kenneth Clarke last November police will be less answerable, not more; and that we in response to a Question from Nick de Bois MP. will create a system that is more expensive, less efficient, Interestingly, neither of those people attempted to and will in the end undermine that trust on which clear their names by contesting the charges. This is policing by consent depends. hardly abuse of the law: 10 cases in 10 years. 9.43 pm The other reason the Government give is that the risk of the arrest warrants will deter important Baroness Tonge: My Lords, it gives me great pleasure international leaders from visiting this country to talk to support the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. We do not to our Government. What nonsense is that? First, if often agree and I do not very often support him, but I the important leaders are members of a current agree with his promised amendment to deal with war Government anywhere in the world, they will be immune criminals who shelter in this country. This measure is from the law anyway. Secondly, what is to stop our long overdue, and I support it. leaders going to talk to them? I am afraid that the real I find it extraordinary, however, that in the same reason for Clause 154 is that a foreign Government—in speech the noble Lord said that he wanted to make it this case the Israeli Government—complained when easier for war criminals to come to this country by an arrest warrant was issued on the former Israeli tampering with the long-held right of private individual cabinet member Mrs Livni when she wanted to visit citizens to apply for arrest warrants on potential war the UK. Noble Lords may remember that Mrs Livni criminals planning to visit the United Kingdom. It was a member of the cabinet in Israel that authorised follows that I shall be asking this House to look Operation Cast Lead against Gaza, where, as verified closely at Clause 154, and reject or amend it. I may, as by many human rights groups and Judge Goldstone’s usual, be a voice crying in the wilderness, but I am UN fact-finding mission, war crimes were probably used to that. I am sure that in the course of my speech, committed. Mrs Livni is famous for saying that Israel I may touch on some sensitive issues. I apologise for would “go wild” in Gaza. that in advance. Discussions with the Israeli Government took place, Currently, any citizen who can afford legal help and as was confirmed in an Answer from the noble Baroness, can muster enough evidence against a person alleged Lady Kinnock, to my noble friend Lady Northover in to have committed war crimes covered by universal 2009. The then Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, jurisdiction can apply to a district judge for an arrest announced that he would see that the law was amended warrant to be issued on that person. Thereby the to prevent UK citizens, allegations can be properly investigated while the person “motivated purely by political gesture”, is being held. Of course, that may not lead to that person being charged. from doing such a thing again. I noticed that, at the beginning of this debate, the noble Baroness, Lady The Government propose in Clause 154 that the Neville-Jones, said that we must ensure that arrest Director of Public Prosecutions should give consent warrants were used in a responsible manner. I remind before any arrest warrant is issued. I and many other noble Lords: 10 in 10 years. people think that this will further erode this country’s record on upholding human rights. Also, obtaining What an insult this is to our senior district judges, the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions will and to human right groups worldwide. More importantly, cause substantial delay; it will not be done over a what an insult it is to Judge Goldstone and the United weekend. It also puts at risk the independence of our Nations. William Hague has endorsed Gordon Brown’s judiciary. The Director of Public Prosecutions may be promise and, sadly, so has my party, the Liberal called independent, but he is under the supervision of Democrats. Before the election, we campaigned hard the Attorney-General, who is a member of the for the law to remain unchanged and promised to Government. This is not just my view; it is held by work for the implementation of the Goldstone report. many human rights lawyers. If a Government now or However, like most other promises we made before the in future wanted to protect a foreign national against election, the Palestinians have been betrayed by the whom well founded allegations had been made, they only party—mine—that ever gave them real support. could do so via the Attorney-General and his pressure Of course, a change in the law will apply not just to on, and supervision of, the Director of Public Prosecutions. Israelis. It could affect many current members of It was pointed out earlier by no less a person than the Governments world wide and attempts to investigate noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that the elected police and what went on in Sri Lanka, Libya, Bahrain, Yemen, 205 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 206

Syria, Kashmir—not often mentioned—to name but a very difficult cases, such as abused people who are few. We all support the calls for the International often not believed, not listened to and seen as unlikely Criminal Court to investigate the recent activities of to be good enough witnesses to put before a court. Colonel Gaddafi in Libya. A change in our law at this I heard recently about one such case at a conference time seems inappropriate. Finally, we frequently hear in the north-east, where the excellent Northumbria complaints in this House about European Union Police had used the most advanced forensic techniques interference in our laws and affairs. Why then should to secure the conviction of a care worker who had we tolerate a foreign country interfering on this issue? raped a middle-aged woman with learning difficulties. The way in which the law on universal jurisdiction That was very expensive and time-consuming, but it operates at present in this country takes away any was done and the outcome was positive. political interference, and that is how it should be. It is Some police forces are working to persuade street not abused and it works well. As for the separation of prostitutes to report rape and violent assaults so that government and the judiciary, we must be very proud the perpetrators of such attacks can be brought to of that and maintain it. court. In some forces, the most painstaking, time- consuming and painful investigations go on to uncover 9.51 pm and prosecute those who are exploiting vulnerable Baroness Stern: My Lords, I shall concentrate my young people leaving care. The NSPCC wrote to me remarks on Clause 1 and aim to be brief. I begin by with its concerns about how offences against children welcoming something, at least: I welcome the and young people and protecting them may not be Government’s commitment to a different approach to given priority under the new arrangements. policing, and the move away from governance through Democracy is a big word and a big idea. It is more targets that often count things that can be counted but than knowing people’s names—with enormous respect which have no way of measuring what is being counted. to the noble Lord, Lord Howard. It is more than That contributes to what the noble Baroness, Lady looking at a list of names and putting a cross in a box. Newlove, called, in her most powerful maiden speech, The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, in her excellent a safer and happier country. maiden speech, reminded us about majorities and I came across the limitations of the target approach minorities. Democracy is also about minority rights, when I carried out the review of how rape complainants about protecting the most vulnerable, about people are dealt with by public authorities. In the course of being able to complain and about people being seen to that work I found widespread concern about the targets matter, however inarticulate they are. for the police and the Crown Prosecution Service, Our current arrangements are not perfect, but we which were in conflict. The police were judged on how have policing here that tries, more than in any country many suspects they charged and the Crown Prosecution I know, to prioritise the vulnerable, the powerless and Service on the other hand was measured by getting a the exploitable. It would be a great pity to lose that, person convicted at court. While the police were really and I fear that these proposals risk that outcome. keen to charge suspects, the CPS was really interested in charging only those who were most likely to be 9.56 pm convicted. The conflict led to a lot of frustration, incomprehension among the complainants and other Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, this has unintended consequences. I am glad that the Government been an excellent debate. When I was thinking about in their response to the rape review said that they were how to describe it, it reminded me of a delicious removing the focus on separate police and CPS chocolate chip cookie. There have been lots of typical measurement. I welcome very much, therefore, the extremely high-level Second Reading debate comments Government’s approach towards a different philosophy and, every now and again, you come across a chunk of of measuring what is seen as good performance by deep, bitter chocolate, represented by the expertise police forces. which has been massing over on the Cross Benches I find it very hard to welcome what the Government and some other Benches of people with real experience have chosen as their replacement for governance by of working in the areas which we are discussing. There target—that one directly elected person should hold is more to come, and if noble Lords stay with the the police accountable. I have to say that I was almost debate to the end, they will see what I mean, because convinced by the most persuasive maiden speech by we have more contributions of real calibre to come. the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra—almost. When I The debate has ranged across the whole Bill, which was carrying out my work on rape complainants last is good because it covers a wide range of issues, and year I had the privilege of spending quite a bit of time has drawn in a huge amount of expertise, including with the police. I was profoundly heartened by what I three widely and rightly praised maiden speeches. Like discovered about how they were responding to this many other noble Lords, I was very moved by the most difficult issue. Obviously there have been widely comments of the noble Baronesses, Lady Berridge and publicised mistakes that should not have happened Lady Newlove. The noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, but in all parts of the country there are police officers and I entered the House on the same day, so I am glad who have been specially trained, for example, to cope that she has now made her maiden speech and is in the middle of the night with a very distressed joining us as a full Member. I am sure that she will person, and to gently take that person through the contribute in a wide range of activities. very personal and invasive questions they have to ask Mind you, if I were the Minister, I would not be and the very intimate and embarrassing tests that have quite so pleased by what I have heard today. Indeed, to be done. They put a considerable time into investigating she is not here; she has gone; perhaps she has had to 207 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 208

[LORD STEVENSON OF BALMACARA] must have evidence, and that evidence must be used to go off to seek inspiration elsewhere. I also notice that make the decisions. I was glad to hear what the Minister although she started with eight people in the Box, we said in that, but I think we will need to probe this are now down to one. I rather suspect that the devastating matter more in discussion in Committee. What has critique which is running at about 10:1 against the been argued in the debate, and seems to be agreed Government’s proposals may be having an effect. around the House, is that we really have missed an I have three reservations to make about the Bill, opportunity in the Bill in terms of drugs policy, which because many of the points that one could have made is that we now need to look forward to a regime that have already been made very well. I will make one encompasses all potentially harmful psychoactive suggestion at the end. substances, including alcohol and tobacco. That is not provided for in the Bill. My first point is: why are only some of our police services in England and Wales being legislated for? If In her opening remarks the Minister stressed the you look at the full list of police forces, you find that value of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs. there are seven additional services which operate in As has already been pointed out, at the same time England and Wales: the British Transport Police, the Clause 153 removes the requirement of the advisory Central Motorway Policing Group, the Civil Nuclear council to have members with certain specified scientific Constabulary, the Ministry of Defence Police, the Port expertise. I can understand the need for flexibility in of Dover Police, the Port of Liverpool Police and the this area, and of course there are credibility issues. Serious Organised Crime Agency. In Scotland, there is Again, we should probe that in Committee. also the Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency. They will I should like to end by agreeing with some of the not be caught by the Bill. As a result, the operational comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Patten. I did activities which we have been discussing risk being not agree with much of what he had to say, but I did steered away across the whole of the police service. I agree with his point about the tensions that have come should declare at this point that I have a past interest up a number of times in debates between the appropriate as a mentor involved with the British Transport Police, democratic accountability of the police force and the a service which I hold in very high regard. operational independence which it must have. We have not seen the protocol. It is a bit like “Hamlet” without I am concerned, in the run-up to the Olympics, the prince: we cannot discuss this because we do not about a divergence between the police forces under the know what is in it, but we all know that it is a serious Bill, if it passes, which will be operating under one set and big issue that will need to come back and be of rules and operations, because the BTP and the discussed again. others I mentioned will of course be under a different regime. They will all be playing a part together, as has The noble Lord, Lord Imbert, made an important been mentioned, in the Olympics. There are differences point. If all police constables and above have to swear already across government because the BTP reports to loyalty to the Queen, surely a protocol—whatever that the Department of Transport and not to the Home might be—is not enough. We really should be thinking Office. But it surely must be in the best interests of all in terms of a royal charter—in that sense echoing the concerned that as much commonality of approach movements towards a military covenant and the work and operation is present in our police services, however that was done on the NHS constitution—to enshrine they are organised, and I do not think the Bill will help the high-level objectives and standards that we require with that. across the whole country in a way that cannot be changed on a regular basis and that will give the Like several noble Lords, I am concerned about certainty and the backbone we need as we go forward some of the licensing proposals. I echo some of the in our police service. concerns expressed by my noble friend Lord Brooke and I listened to what the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, 10.03 pm was saying about the concerns he had received from Lord Wasserman: My Lords, I, too, begin by declaring the licensed trade, which are worth serious consideration. an interest. I have been involved with policing for I look forward to the Minister’s response to that. almost the whole of my working life. I cannot claim to My particular concern, which I think was touched have been at the sharp end of policing, unlike some on by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, is the noble Lords who spoke earlier. I have never made an stealth tax that is being applied on the late night levy, arrest, I have never tackled an angry mob and I have which may have a devastating effect on live music. If never even walked the beat. My policing experience that is the case and it does come in in that way, it will was gained in much safer conditions. For nearly 27 years undermine the Private Member’s Bill, which we support I was a member of the Home Office, where I had on this side of the House and which seems to be responsibilities for policing policy and for the provision running dangerously close to some of the provisions of national policing support services, including in the Bill. We will have to watch that very carefully. information technology and forensic science. After I have two concerns about aspects of the drugs leaving the Home Office in 1995, I continued my provisions in Part 4, some of which have been mentioned involvement with the police in the United States, where already. The temporary banning orders for new drugs I spent 10 years working on the other side of policing fly in the face of common sense. About a month ago as an adviser to chiefs of police in New York, Philadelphia we had a debate on the Government’s drugs policy. We and a number of other American cities. learnt that banning was not always the best way to This experience has left me with the greatest respect deal with new drugs. We were told during the debate for the professional police officer who puts his or her that some 40 new drugs are produced every year. We life on the line each day to keep us safe and free. It has 209 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 210 also given me a tremendous sense of admiration for only through the strong national and even international the management and leadership skills of our chief collaboration that had to be put in place. police officers. We are lucky in this country to have at All this has led to a steady growth in the influence the top of our police service a group of men and of central government on local forces. Chief constables women of outstanding ability, unquestioned integrity, have been drawn inexorably to the Home Office for a high level of professionalism and a deep commitment leadership, direction and funding. Inevitably, this has to public service. As I shall argue, this Bill recognises meant that they have had far less time to spend in their the quality of our chief officers and gives them the local communities. In fact, some of our best chief freedom that they require to exploit their full potential constables spend several days a week in London at as leaders and managers. I believe also that it keeps us meetings with Home Office officials and others developing safe from the sort of corruption dangers which other new “policies and initiatives”. The police authorities countries have faced and which some noble Lords set up in the 1960s to be responsible for these forces have mentioned as one of the problems inherent in have proved too weak to overcome these pressures this Bill. from Whitehall. They have had to accept the demands A number of noble Lords have argued that one of set centrally and sit by and watch their chief constables the major flaws of the Bill is that it is an attempt to tick the boxes, complete the report cards and strive to copy models of policing accountability from the United meet the national targets that often bear no relationship States. I can assure your Lordships that that is not the to the crime and anti-social behaviour problems that case. There is no American model for the governance they see all around them. of local police forces. American policing is as diverse This Bill stops that trend dead in its tracks. It as America itself. The only thing that American police returns responsibility for local policing to local people. departments have in common is that they are all paid It gives responsibility for identifying and prioritising for locally and they are managed locally. The national local policing needs to a local individual who understands Government takes almost no interest in local policing. the needs of the community and is very much part of For this reason, the governance arrangements for these it. Most important of all, it makes this individual forces, and there are some 18,000 of them—some directly accountable to the community, through the noble Lords have mentioned 17,000 while others have ballot box, for meeting those needs. Many noble Lords quoted 19,000; no one knows because some of them have said that PPCs will not know anything about are one-man bands where a single officer fulfils every policing. In my view, that is a very good thing. Their role from chief constable to the constable on the job is to identify the policing needs of their communities, beat—are all home-grown; that is, they reflect the not to deliver the policing services required to meet governance of the local communities that they serve. those needs. That is the job of the professional, the chief constable. In parentheses, I can say from first-hand In New York, for example, the police chief is appointed experience that those Ministers who come into office by and reports to the mayor. In other cities, including thinking that they know all about the subject for Miami, the police chief reports to the city manager. In which they now find themselves responsible are not Los Angeles, the mayor appoints the police chief, but always the most successful. the chief reports to a five-person board of police This Bill does all this without in any way affecting commissioners, who, in turn, are appointed by the the complex structure of national support and crime- mayor. As Americans are fond of saying, “You pays fighting arrangements which have been put in place your money, you takes your choice”. I cannot swear over the past 50 years and which are rightly admired that there is not a single police force somewhere in around the world. At the same time, the Bill significantly America with governance arrangements that resemble strengthens the management role of chief constables. what is proposed in this Bill, but if there is I do not It gives them the freedom to use their professional know about it. Even if there were, that does not affect skills to manage their forces as they judge best. It the fact that, as my noble friend Lord Howard of treats them like proper chief executives of major Lympne told us what seems like many hours ago, the organisations, which is exactly what they are. It gives proposal for directly elected PCCs set out in this Bill them, for the first time, the power to appoint their own was developed to meet a particularly British policing top management teams rather than having to make do need: the need to re-establish close links between local with a team imposed by their police authorities. It also people and their police force. provides for them to be corporations sole, which means I use the word “re-establish” advisedly when referring that the force’s civilian staff can be employed by them to these links, because our police forces grew out of rather than by the police authority. our local communities and at one time could not have Most important, this Bill formalises a process that been closer to them. I have no doubt that many noble began when this Government took office a year ago. It Lords will remember the pre-amalgamation days when frees chief constables from the bureaucratic accountability there were nearly 200 local police forces and when of the Home Office. It relieves them of the constant chief constables were familiar local figures. Over the flow of guidance, advice, report cards, targets and years, forces have grown larger and more dependent ring-fenced grants issued by successive Ministers with on central support services such as the police national the encouragement of enthusiastic officials like me, computer, the police national network and other who themselves have had no direct experience of policing information and communications systems. They have and whose knowledge of the local circumstances in had to give more attention to such things as serious which all this guidance and advice have to be applied and organised crime, illegal immigration, internet crime is at best second-hand. In short, this Bill recognises and terrorism, all of which can be tackled effectively that local policing needs can be identified only at the 211 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 212

[LORD WASSERMAN] statistician. Every commissioner will have a number of local level and that it is only the local chief constable staff and I see no evidence that to date the Government who can decide how best to deliver the policing required have identified the numbers of those and how much it to meet those needs. I commend it to the House in the will all cost. strongest possible terms. Then there are the problems associated with the powers of the panels proposed. It seems strange that a 10.13 pm single commissioner will be responsible for holding the police to account on behalf of perhaps a million Lord Shipley: My Lords, we have had a long and people, but a panel of 10 or more people will be set up very useful debate on the Bill. It has identified a large to hold to account one commissioner. It seems even number of issues which we will need to consider stranger that the panels, unlike our current police further in Committee. In view of the time, I am going authorities, will not be able to scrutinise the police. to restrict my comments to the role of the proposed That is a major democratic deficit. The panels, if we elected police commissioner and to Part 1. Despite the have them, must be bigger—at least 15 members to several hours that we have spent in this debate, it still is cover the diverse needs of their areas. They will need not clear to me what exactly the problem is that the additional powers to enable them to veto the police Government are trying to solve. and crime plan. A two-thirds majority will be needed The polls show that the public have little interest in here to secure a veto, as with the precept. In addition, changes to police governance and for them, scrutiny the panels must have some greater power over the and accountability take place at their neighbourhood detailed budget as opposed to just the precept because level. To them, that is local, and in the main it works it is in the detail of the budget that the actual plan—for very well now because of all of the initiatives that have the distribution of police, for example—will occur. taken place in recent years. As that structure, particularly around partnership working, will continue as now, it Then there is the issue that we have heard a little would help the Government’s case if they produced about this afternoon of the dismissal of a chief constable. evidence of the measurable benefits they seek to deliver. It seems clear from the Bill that the powers of the Elections can enhance democracy and accountability commissioner are simply too great and the panel will and, in theory, commissioners backed by the power of have to have much greater authority. Looking also at a ballot would enhance the accountability of the police. the temporary cover that is proposed where a But it is not as simple as that. Today, we have heard a commissioner is absent, surely a panel must be able to great deal of the dangers in some of the proposals elect one of its members to provide temporary cover within the Bill. First, policing could become politicised for the commissioner. It is odd that the Bill proposes because many candidates would be nominated by political that a member of staff of the commissioner’s office— parties, but only one of them can win. There would presumably appointed by the commissioner, who could therefore be a direct party political connection with be a junior member of staff—is able to take over the the post of commissioner, which does not occur in the commissioner’s role for several months not having same direct way with the role of the chair of a police been elected. That is not right. The proposal for a authority, who operates much more by consensus. deputy commissioner who would be a member of the panel and elected by the panel would give greater Secondly, there is a danger that one person cannot legitimacy. represent a population averaging perhaps a million people, which will often be very diverse. That will lead I have two brief points about elections. For a number in practice, because of the abolition of the police of reasons, I am in favour of a pilot. First, we would authority, to a democratic deficit, not to an improvement see whether it works. However, elections in 2012, as in democratic accountability. proposed in this Bill, should not apply to those 12 cities The issue about commissioners seeking to direct having mayoral referendums. That is because we are resources to gain votes has been raised in the Chamber going to have not just two democratic organisations in today. There is a real risk that commissioners might local authorities—councillors and commissioners—but, seek to do that. There is also a risk that commissioners in 12 English cities, we will perhaps have elected might champion visible issues to gain votes at the mayors. Who would be in charge in that situation—the expense of those that are less visible but nevertheless elected mayor or the elected police commissioner? The very important to the general public. It has rightly elected mayor will be on the panel. I do not think that been identified in today’s debate that the cost of the will work terribly well or that there should be an new arrangements will be much greater than for the elected commissioner in any police area where there is existing police authorities because commissioners will going to be possibly an elected mayor. In London, of inevitably create their own support staffing structures. course, the political boundaries for the London Assembly The Bill itself says that they must have a chief executive and those for the Metropolitan Police are coterminous; and a chief finance officer, but the staff will inevitably but in other cities that is not the case. That seems to be have their own substructures and before we know it a major problem. costs will rocket. Secondly, I have a real concern about an election The Bill says that the costs of commissioners must using the supplementary vote system, because it does be contained within existing budgets, but there will be not require the support of 50 per cent of the electorate. a minimum of 82 further new posts under commissioners. You could well end up with somebody with significantly That is low because there would have to be an office, under 50 per cent actually securing the post and then support staff, policy staff and press staff. There may being seen to represent just one part of their geographical even be a number of finance staff and, for example, a area. 213 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 214

In conclusion, I hope that in Committee we have such meetings. I have no doubt that the noble Lord, some very detailed discussions on much of what we Lord Shipley, has as well. Nobody has ever asked have debated today and also on what we have not. In about policing in the city as a whole, let alone in the the event, I believe that it is right that we should now Northumbria force area, which is 70 miles in length be seeking to pilot this Bill and not simply to impose it and encompasses 1.6 million people. That is the kind from 2012, lock, stock and barrel. of localism that the Bill apparently seeks to address, but that is not localism at all. Localism is very much at a lower level. It is certainly true that accountability at 10.22 pm that level has improved over the years. It needs to be Lord Beecham: My Lords, I concur wholeheartedly reinforced at the basic command unit level, at the with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, divisional level, perhaps at the level of the city or part my fellow Newcastle city councillor; and I ask the of the county area. However, to assume that a single rhetorical question, which was implicit in what he individual can be responsible and accountable to an said, as to what the mischief is that the proposal for area as wide as that, where there is a population of elected police commissioners purports to address. It that size, or greater in many parts of the country, appears to consist of an alleged lack of visibility and seems wholly unrealistic. accountability on the part of police authorities. The Moreover, there is probably not a real risk of an noble Lord, Lord Howard, who enthusiastically espoused extremist being elected to a position of police police authorities and their chairmen when he was commissioner, as one Member of your Lordships’ Home Secretary, today of course abandons them with House suggested, but it is at least likely, in the context equal enthusiasm and says that most people do not of a campaign on a single issue, that fear of crime will know the name of the chair of their police authority, certainly be ratcheted up by those seeking election. which is probably true. Interestingly, the Northumbria Fear of the fear of crime, I am afraid, rather dominated force surveyed the population in 2005 and found at the policy-making of the previous Government to an that point that only 55 per cent of the population were unfortunate and unnecessary extent, and I suspect aware of the police authority. It addressed that issue that elections of this kind will have that same effect and sought to promote public engagement; and in the again. Of course, the likely outcome is that there will last survey, last year, it recorded that 88 per cent of be a further fragmentation of services, when in fact people in the force area were aware of the police they need to be brought together, with an elected authority. People may not know the name of the commissioner having a separate, possibly competing, chairman, but they are certainly aware of the authority. mandate with the local authorities in the area that he The question continues to be: what is it that this or she would seek to serve and to work with, with their appointment would address? After all, the statutory separate mandate and their relatively insignificant framework currently provides for extensive consultation contribution to the problems of community safety, by police authorities. The very useful paper distributed which of course transcend merely policing the area. It by Liberty points out that: is arguable that, for the first election, there would be “When discharging its functions, every Police Authority is an element of accountability. After a commissioner is under a statutory duty to take into account the views of the elected for the second and last time, there is no further people in the Authority’s area about policing in their community. degree of public accountability in again looking to the Police Authorities are also required by statute to make arrangements ballot box, so the accountability argument can certainly for obtaining the views of local people on matters concerning be overdone. policing of their area and obtaining co-operation in preventing crime. The views obtained must encompass a wide range of There is also the question of the substantial powers people with particular focus on those aged under 21 or over 65 that accrue to the elected commissioner. The and from people from diverse backgrounds including marginalised commissioners would be responsible for something groups and those of disadvantaged socio-economic status. The like 11.5 per cent of the council tax levied in England Authority must also ensure that it obtains a sufficient number and range of views so that it does not act on the basis of an unduly and 15.5 per cent in Wales. That is a significant slice of limited or unrepresentative sample. The Police Authority must local taxation levied by a separate authority. This is also take into account whether the public in the area has confidence subject only to a three-quarters veto by the police and in the police force and whether the public considers that their crime panel. That scrutinising body would have virtually views are being taken into account”. no power. It would have no power to call in decisions These are significant statutory obligations currently or to play any significant part in the appointment of a laid on police authorities, which would no doubt be chief constable or other officials appointed either by carried forward into the new framework. the commissioner or by the chief constable. It would It seems, with respect to the Minister, that she not have the power to agree or amend the crime plans. misinterprets the results of the survey that she quoted, Indeed, even the chief constable would not have the which suggests that the interest of people logging on power to agree a commissioner’s plan, and what would to the new crime maps is sufficient to drive the model happen if there is a disagreement is entirely unclear that is now being proposed. However, that of course within the legislation. Therefore there are significant assumes that people are interested in statistics for the issues about the degree of power to be vested, in effect, whole area. As the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has in a single pair of hands without much real accountability pointed out—it is certainly our experience as councillors at all. in Newcastle, attending public meetings regularly with As the Bill goes forward, there are other issues that the police in our areas—the interest is very local we will have to address around appointments—around indeed. It is not force-wide. It is not even citywide. It is the role, for example, of Her Majesty’s inspectorate, very much area-based. I have been present at countless which will no longer have to report to the Secretary of 215 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 216

[LORD BEECHAM] that 16,000 injuries and up to 168 deaths caused by car State. It is possible to improve this Bill if the Government crashes could be avoided in the first year of a reduction are prepared to listen and to act on the genuine in the blood/alcohol limit for drivers from 80 to concerns expressed on all sides of this House and by 50 milligrams per 100 millilitres and to zero for new other interested organisations, and to recognise that drivers. what is most important is to improve accountability at The fiscal reasoning behind the policing changes in the very local level, and not to vest enormous powers the Bill seems illogical. We are asked to endorse changes in an individual with a wide geographical and population costing somewhere in the region of £100 million per constituency without having that individual subjected annum, yet the Government continue to refuse to to any significant scrutiny. I am afraid that that is the fund, by their own estimate, £1 million to £2 million effect of the Bill as it stands. for the office of the chief coroner. Just two judicial reviews avoided would fund the chief coroner, whose 10.29 pm creation was supported across both Houses to provide Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I want to leadership and bring justice to the bereaved victims of focus on alcohol-related harms, the worst of which crime. This is hardly joined-up financial planning. was so eloquently described by the noble Baroness, As for Wales, the amendments in the other place do Lady Newlove, in her deeply moving maiden speech. not respect the spirit of devolution, as they provide the The Licensing Act 2003 is a spectacular failure in Secretary of State with powers over local authorities public health terms. This Bill is a missed opportunity. in Wales, which needs to be able to defer implementation Alcohol misuse abounds, costing £17 billion to £22 billion until the results from England are proven. per annum, around £770 per household. Alcohol costs As a UK drugs policy commissioner, I will seek to the NHS £2.7 billion per annum, double the amount amend the drugs section to improve the proposals, of 10 years ago in real terms and rising. Last year, best because I fear that they will only be expensive wallpaper estimates are that 40 per cent of the 319,000 people as drafted and will fail to reduce the real harms that injured in violence in England and Wales were intoxicated they are meant to address. at the time of injury and 70 per cent of accident and emergency attendances after 10 pm relate to alcohol misuse. 10.35 pm So what are the possible solutions? The first is Baroness Henig: My Lords, I declare my interests as pricing alcohol to return its relative cost in relation to president of the Association of Police Authorities and income to where it was 20 to 30 years ago. Irresponsible chair of the Security Industry Authority. I promise to off-licence promotions at less than 60 pence per unit of try to keep noble Lords awake for the next 10 minutes. alcohol must end. Alcohol is ludicrously cheap; That is surely a lesser challenge than keeping the supermarket cider is commonly less that 50 pence a attention of students on a Friday afternoon, which I pint. Indeed, the late night levy that the Bill provides used to have to do regularly. I have been involved in should also cover the NHS costs from the high accident the governance of policing at both force and national and emergency attendances. The drinks industry profits level for more than 20 years. My whole approach to could underwrite some of the costs that they actually the Bill, particularly its first part, is shaped by that incur. experience and by my absolute conviction that good Secondly, licensed premises’ cumulative impact and governance is fundamental to success and that in the saturation policies should be statutory rather than public sector it is in the policy area of policing that simply constituting the current ambiguous guidance. good governance is most essential. A decision to deny a licence is easily overturned. A British policing is justly admired throughout the clear example comes from my home city of Cardiff, world, not least in the United States, because of the where the council licensing committee’s sensible decision principles on which it is based. Those principles are not to grant permission to extend an off-sales licence fundamental to the success of policing in this country in St Mary Street from 6 pm till 11 pm was easily and any proposed change in our policing structures overturned by well paid lawyers of a large supermarket should be judged on the extent to which it upholds or chain, even though the area has seen the highest betrays those principles. We have heard reference to incidence of violence according to police and accident those principles throughout the debate. I shall allude and emergency attendances of any street in the city to them only briefly, but they are important. Police over the past 10 years, and there were already other forces, in particular the chief constable and his senior outlets. The Bill needs amendment to really strengthen command team, must be held to account to local the local voice in licensing decisions, and to ensure communities through a body that represents, and which that cumulative impact and saturation policies include is seen to represent, local people. This body should not consideration of supermarkets and other off-licence operate in a party-political way but should hold the outlets. force to account, working with the chief constable to Thirdly, we can learn from South Dakota’s SCRAM draw up overarching policing strategies within which project. Alcohol fuels about half of all violent crime the force will operate, while day-to-day operations and road deaths, particularly among young new drivers. must be exclusively the preserve of the police, who are An alcohol monitoring requirement, estimated to cost accountable to law. about £1 a day and producing an 80 per cent sobriety The police authority needs to gain its mandate by rate in the programme, is cost-effective and potentially consulting local people effectively about policing issues, saves many lives. The National Institute for Health seeking their views on matters such as the level of the and Clinical Excellence, like the North report, estimates policing precept, divisional and force policing plans 217 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 218 and their experience of day-to-day policing. This means power to hire and fire a chief constable. It is no use that any police body has to operate not just at force denying this. What is being proposed will undermine level but at divisional and ward levels, working in effective delivery by creating huge political tensions partnership with district bodies such as crime and between the elected commissioner and the chief constable. disorder reduction partnerships and local councillors It is going to bring party politics to the heart of who may want to raise policing issues. We have to policing. No protocol that I can imagine at this point realise that policing in this country is delivered at four in time is going to lessen those tensions. levels: national, force, divisional and neighbourhood. Secondly, there is a complete mismatch between Any effective lay policing body has to strive to hold what the public are asking for and what they are being the force to account effectively at all four levels. given. What individuals want is information about I have spelt all this out because it is only when we policing in their neighbourhood and their district—and articulate those fundamental principles underlying policing increasingly they are getting it. What they are being in this country that we can see how flawed many of the given in this Bill is an individual elected to cover a proposals in this Bill are. For me, the most worrying force area—that will comprise 18 parliamentary aspect of the proposed changes is that no evidence has constituencies in Devon and Cornwall, three whole been put forward to suggest that the reform will enhance counties in Thames Valley, or the whole of the West the effective delivery of policing or contribute to the Midlands. Obviously the definition of “local” used by reduction of crime. Surely, if we are making such the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, is very different major changes, we need some evidence. We certainly from mine. have not heard from those who have spoken on behalf This one individual, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, of these measures today how effective delivery of told us, will decide on the policing precept, which policing will be enhanced or how a reduction of crime accounts for about 11 per cent of the local authority will come about. Without that evidence, how should budget. This individual also has to liaise with and we possibly be asked to support such far-reaching scrutinise the force, all its divisions, all its crime and changes? disorder reduction partnerships, all the local councils The proposals are not supported by the public, who and all their scrutiny panels. That is an impossible job we know in a number of recent surveys have for one individual. Partnership is the essence of delivering overwhelmingly rejected the idea that one individual effective local policing. The election of one single elected on a party-political basis should exercise lay commissioner will weaken and not enhance those control over a police force. They will not apply in essential local partnerships, which have brought crime Northern Ireland or Scotland, while the Welsh Assembly levels down so dramatically in recent years. has voted to reject them. That has led to a serious Thirdly, this Bill takes policing away from local impasse between the devolved Welsh Government and government, as the noble Lords, Lords Shipley and the Government, which we will have to look at seriously Lord Beecham, identified. At present, all police authorities in Committee. It is therefore the forces in England and have at least nine elected councillors, who assess police in local communities outside London who will face performance at force and divisional level, work with the most massive change in systems being imposed on local bodies, question the chief constable in public on them—a change that, despite all the talk about localism any policing issue monthly or bi-monthly, look at by the coalition, they will have no opportunity to force HR and equality issues and consult the public on influence. a range of policing issues. All this is going to disappear. It is interesting that, although there was consultation The proposed police and crime panel is a pathetic last year, we have not yet heard how many of the invention with puny powers. It is confined to scrutinising 900 or so responses apparently received by the Home the commissioner and his policing plans and proposed Office were in favour and how many opposed. I find budgets. It has no political balance and no ethnic or that rather surprising. We can probably conclude from gender balance. It is a huge step backwards from the it that the vast majority were opposed. I have not yet present situation. Indeed, I believe that this part of the heard any compelling arguments for why these changes Bill is an insult to local government. are necessary. We heard, not so long ago, about the How can it be right that policing is being removed importance of re-establishing links between the police from local government in this way? Is this the beginning and the public, but 60 per cent of the public already of the end for local government? Will we see have confidence in the police. That is third only to commissioners for local health, for education, for doctors and nurses and far higher, I might say, than local transport? What will the relationship be between for politicians or journalists. Neighbourhood policing directly elected mayors and commissioners? Surely the now gives the public a big and a regular say in setting mayors will want some say in policing matters. Among priorities for their local areas. How much more the many amendments that I shall be tabling at Committee reconnection are we looking for? The public are getting stage—this will come as no surprise to your Lordships— what they want. In fact, the proposals, as we hear, have will be some to change the role and powers of police not been supported by the public. and crime panels. They should be working with the There are at least five powerful reasons for opposing commissioner and be operating at divisional and local the proposals. First and foremost—and everyone has level, not just scrutinising his or her actions. That at talked about this—we will be injecting party politics least would make some sort of sense, rather than, as is into policing in a big and dangerous way that will proposed at present, the commissioner scrutinising the completely change the dynamics of policing. Anybody chief constable and the PCP scrutinising the commissioner. who says that it will not does not understand how Nobody who understands what really makes policing policing works. It is going to give one individual the work effectively could ever have proposed this structure. 219 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 220

[BARONESS HENIG] Cabinet post but, because of his devotion to the police Fourthly, the election of commissioners is going to service, turned it down. We were glad about that then be expensive, as we have heard. Should that really be and we are delighted to see him in the House now. forced on the public at a time when we know that In my view, the timing of the Bill is extraordinary. they are facing draconian cuts in their local front-line We stand at a stage when the police service in this forces? I confidently predict that, if the public were country is facing some of the biggest changes in given a choice between more front-line police and relation to conditions, wages and pensions that it ever these elections, well over 90 per cent would want the has. We are also standing at a stage when—although front-line forces. hopefully I am wrong—there could be grave public Fifthly, what if the person elected is no good at the disorder in the streets in the next 12 months to two job? At present, chairs of police authorities are elected years, and we have the Olympics around the corner as annually, but we will be stuck with commissioners for well. Morale has been quoted as being at its lowest four years. They are not to be appraised by Her levels; some of us have been downstairs to talk to Majesty’s police inspectorate, unlike police authorities, police officers from Northumbria and other places, which is rather surprising, given the Minister’s emphasis and certainly morale is not good. Why are we bringing on the appraisal of police authorities. No, the will of in the Bill in the way that we are? the people apparently trumps the ability to do the job I know that in policing people will say that morale effectively as, it is argued, those with no aptitude for is always low. I remember a very good chief constable the position will be voted out of office. That has to be of mine saying, “John, if they weren’t moaning, I’d be an extremely naive view and it is not borne out by my very worried indeed”, and I suppose there was something experience of politics at either local or national level. in that. However, policing over the past 15 years has Also, if a commissioner falls ill, a non-elected member been highly successful. This was started by the noble of his office can stand in for him. That cannot be Lord, Lord Howard, who as Home Secretary decided right. It is something else that needs to be looked at in that police could actually affect crime and disorder in Committee. I have long argued in favour of fewer, this country and created one target all about reducing larger, more resilient forces. Alas, the measures in the crime, which he pursued as well. Policing has been a Bill will prevent, not facilitate, that development, which success story over the past 15 years and continues to is increasingly necessary in the modern world. be so. Anything that gets in the way of that success I cannot deal with any other part of the Bill. It is story has to be considered in other than a positive way. the first part which will change our system and its I have a real problem. I was chief constable of structure of governance irreversibly and which has the Northumbria for five years and I cannot see one capacity to do so much damage to the delivery of a model fitting all the forces that I served in—Northumbria, service that has operated pretty well for nearly 200 years. Cambridgeshire, Hampshire and the Metropolitan Police. My fundamental concern is that we are being asked to I was also an HMI for two years, inspecting some of take a gigantic leap in the dark towards the politicisation the major forces in this country. I was also present at of policing in a situation where the existing system is the appointment of 17 chief constables, the head not broken and few people are calling for change. For of the National Criminal Intelligence Service and the me, the supreme irony is that the system that we have head of the National Crime Squad. What worries me was established by a Conservative Home Secretary, about one model fitting all is a problem that relates to Robert Peel, and overhauled in the early 1990s very Northumbria in particular. Northumberland, to the effectively by another two Conservative Home Secretaries. north, is a county on its own, with the boroughs that Why on earth does the Conservative Party now want we all know so well—Newcastle and Sunderland. For to destroy one of its most enduring achievements? I one person to try to deal with the complexity of that hope that the Minister will be able to explain the would be extraordinary. reason to me and to allay my profound concerns when There is another thing with which I have a slight she concludes the debate. problem. I do not often disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Howard—we usually agree on most things, do 10.46 pm we not? The people whom I inspected and for whom I Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington: My Lords, I declare was chief constable were not shrinking violets. I know my interests: I was a serving police officer for 43 years, I was a pussycat, Lord Harris. We have heard some of and my various other interests are in the House of them today: the noble Baronesses, Lady Harris and Lords register of interests. I have concerns in relation Lady Henig, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris, to name to the Bill. I will be going through them, but your a few. There was also George Gill. All those people Lordships will be glad to know that I will be as quick were and still are known in their areas and respected. as I possibly can. That argument is perhaps not as persuasive as it I pay tribute to the noble Baronesses, Lady Berridge should be from my experience, which may be limited. and Lady Newlove. If ever there was a description of I have a problem with the elections as well. The why we have to get policing right in this country, the election of the PCCs will be conducted under contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, the supplementary vote system, which could, through was it. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. the transfer of secondary preference votes, result in a The reason why he is so positive about HMIC is that candidate being selected without having secured a he was an excellent Police Minister and we in HMI at clear mandate from the electorate. That in itself is the time used to take him to the local pub and regularly worrying, bearing in mind all the comments from my paid for his drinks. One of the greatest things that colleagues and, far more eloquently, from some of the people do not know about him is that he was offered a people here this evening. 221 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 222

Here we come to the real crux. There are two issues. Square; the new powers for the regulation of drugs; One is the impact on the national policing priorities. I and the provision for the consent of the Director of was lucky enough to chair the police border review. Public Prosecutions before an arrest warrant is issued The noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, was generously for universal jurisdiction offences. We will, though, part of that for the Conservative Party under David want to probe further into the detail of the Government’s Cameron. All of its recommendations were taken up proposals on these provisions in Committee, particularly by the Conservative Party in opposition. What we in the light of some of the comments made in this discovered on border policing was that there was a debate. mismatch between what was being delivered nationally Most of those who have spoken on the issue have and what was being delivered locally. One of the either been directly opposed to the principal provision weaknesses has to be the question of whether the of the Bill—namely, the elected police and crime reforms to local delivery, under one person, will have commissioners—or have expressed strong and powerful an effect on national policing and its resources. Clause 79 reservations about the proposal and its potential states that PCCs and chief constables must, implications. One of the concerns is: what exactly will “have regard to the strategic policing requirement”, the police and crime commissioners do if they are not, which is set out by the Home Secretary. However, this as claimed, going to become involved in operational is not binding. As such, it does not go far enough in matters? The Bill sets out the basic duties of the post, mitigating the risk of local issues being prioritised at which hardly add up to a well paid, full-time job, the expense of national policing matters. That means unless, of course, the appointment, suspension and that the local policing commissioner or chief constable dismissal of the chief constable is to become a regular will have priority over national issues. event, or police and crime plans and objectives are to Very quickly, on the role of chief constable, we have be changed every five minutes in order to create a job. not seen the protocols. I am sure that the Minister is We currently have police authorities which meet at working hard on those. We were promised them by regular intervals but not exactly every day. We have an Second Reading. Some of those of us who are privileged individual who is the chair of the police authority but enough to speak to the Home Secretary and the top it is not normally a full-time position. If the police and teams have a problem with that. How can we decide crime commissioner is not going to be involved in about the independence of policing, and where the operational matters, will the Minister set out exactly chief constable or the commissioner of the Metropolitan what duties and responsibilities the commissioner will Police sits in this structure, unless we know that we be taking over from the chief constable, what duties have independence for the police officer who is involved and responsibilities he or she will be taking over from in crime? the chair of the police authority and the members of If I may, I shall end by talking as a senior investigating the police authority, and what duties and responsibilities officer. Some time ago I looked into and investigated will be entirely new and are not undertaken by anyone the National Criminal Intelligence Service; I have now at all at the present time? Is the reality that much of been in Northern Ireland for 20 years, investigating the work of the police and crime commissioners will some very difficult issues; and more recently I investigated simply be duplicating work which the chief constable Princess Diana’s death in Paris. The real power and and his senior team already do, and will in effect create confidence that I enjoyed in carrying out those a further management layer with the need for further investigations and the dedication of the people around papers, reports and attendance at meetings by senior me were related to one thing—that I was answerable to police officers who should be spending as much of the law and the law alone. their available time as possible leading the fight against Finally, this Bill is the biggest change to the constitution crime? Is it the undeclared intention that the role of of policing in 150 years. It is absolutely our responsibility the police and crime commissioner will be extended at tonight and in the following months to ensure that we some later stage to other areas of the criminal justice get it right even if it is carried through in a certain system such as, for example, the probation and prison form, which it probably will be. If we get it wrong, we services, or even the local courts service? will never sleep soundly in our beds in the future. What exactly will be the position in London? The Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime, which sounds a 10.55 pm bit like a quango, will have the same powers as a police Lord Rosser: My Lords, we have had a lengthy and and crime commissioner, so will the mayor be the interesting debate. We have also had the pleasure of commissioner or will the commissioner in reality be a hearing three informative, knowledgeable, and at times mayoral appointee, in which case what has happened moving, maiden speeches from the noble Baronesses, to the Government’s much vaunted concept of the Lady Berridge and Lady Newlove, and the noble need for directly elected commissioners? Lord, Lord Blencathra, which have rightly drawn much To whom will the police and crime commissioners praise. I both hope and expect that they will all be be accountable during their period of office? It does regular contributors to debates in your Lordships’ not look as though there will be the equivalent of a House. Parliament, an Assembly or a local council with the There are some parts of the Bill which we can power to accept or reject key proposals or changes support in general terms. These are: the alterations to that the commissioner wishes to take, or to hold the existing powers for licensing authorities and other commissioner to account. Where is the check on responsible bodies with regard to alcohol licensing; inappropriate or overenthusiastic use of power by a the new regulations governing protest in Parliament single individual? It will certainly not be with the 223 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 224

[LORD ROSSER] confidence in the police is at a high level. That is not toothless police and crime panels—the PCPs that will bad for police authorities that suffer the allegedly be the police commissioner’s poodle—which, even in overwhelming defect of not having a chair or members their own limited area of power, will need 75 per cent who are widely known to the public. What exactly is it of all their members, not even just those present, to that is so deficient about the present structure that send back the commissioner’s proposed precept. Current demands the introduction of police and crime police authorities are executive committees, but police commissioners and the potential politicisation of policing and crime panels will be scrutiny bodies without executive and dealing with crime, which should be independent powers. It appears, in reality, that the only person and impartial? Are the imposition and additional costs whose approval the commissioner needs to seek is of directly elected police and crime commissioners the himself or herself. Government’s thank you to police officers and police Those who may consider that elected national politicians civilian staff throughout the country for their success have already politicised the police will be in for a shock in reducing and tackling crime, for facing cuts in when they realise the degree of party politicisation that numbers and for facing pay and conditions being single elected police commissioners will bring. If the managed down? intention is that the operational independence and The argument is that policing and crime have a impartiality of the police will not be put at risk, what is significant impact on people’s lives. The current the Government’s definition of operational independence? arrangements of police authorities provide a level of The Government have said that they will produce a accountability that includes a majority of locally elected memorandum or protocol that will set out the terms of council representatives, which should not simply be agreement on the relationship between the new elected swept aside. People want managerial competence, an police and crime commissioners and chief constables efficient and effective service, and an ability to have a to ensure that operational independence is protected. say over what happens in their immediate locality—an Typically, the Government have failed to produce the ability that has been enhanced by community partnership document in time for today’s Second Reading. That is working, and by the introduction of neighbourhood presumably because the Government, despite claiming police community support teams, which spend time that operational independence will be protected, do keeping in direct contact with those who live and work not yet know what the words they have uttered mean in in their neighbourhood to make sure that they are reality.That is a not dissimilar situation to their lengthy aware of their principal concerns on crime and policing silence when we asked them to define what they meant issues. by the front-line policing that they asserted would be People do not want the politicisation and fragmentation protected from cuts. of the police service because not all policing matters Does operational independence include decisions affect only one area or county. Counterterrorism and on how many police officers are required to be on duty kidnap activity do not respect police authority boundaries, for particular demonstrations, marches and protests? or at times even national boundaries, any more than Does operational independence include the police tactics do drug trafficking, human trafficking, e-crime and to be deployed on such occasions? Does operational cybercrime. Co-operation between forces is vital, and independence include, within the parameters of an the Association of Chief Police Officers does much overall budget, the number of officers and civilian good work in this area. staff to be employed on the variety of different activities What will be the attitude of an elected police and that a police force undertakes? Will a police and crime crime commissioner who believes that his or her prospects commissioner be able to dismiss or remove a chief of popularity and re-election will depend on allocating constable when the issue or issues that have caused resources and on trying to deliver on promises made, difficulty would appear to any reasonable person to however unlikely, during an election campaign, rather relate to a chief constable’s unwillingness to carry out than on directing their resources at major national or instructions from a commissioner on an operational international crimes that may not have an obvious issue? immediate impact in their own area? We do not want Will not the reality be that we will find ourselves more than 40 separate police service silos, but that is with police and crime commissioners who have won what we risk getting, and the Government certainly an election, but have yet to find a role? In trying to have not explained how the strategic policing objectives create a full-time job for themselves—incidentally, how will ensure that this cannot happen. many staff is it anticipated they will have, and at what The creation of police and crime commissioners cost?—they will seek to usurp the responsibilities of will enable the Government, having made significant those senior police officers who currently manage and cuts in police budgets, to seek—in vain, I suspect—to run our police forces and, in so doing, create a lot of wash their hands of any responsibility for the incidence frustration and conflict, as well as unnecessary and of crime and how it should be addressed, on the basis unjustified duplication and additional bureaucracy. that that is the responsibility of the elected police and The reality, as has been said on many occasions today, crime commissioner. The approach will be similar to is that a commissioner who has the power to dismiss that adopted towards local government, where they will always have the whip hand over a chief constable reduce the amount of money received by local authorities on issues regarding what is or is not deemed to be an and then seek to blame them when the inevitable operational matter. happens and important services are cut or reduced. For what purpose is all this being done? The level of We have seen the Government decide, following crime reduced steadily by more than 40 per cent over a almost universal criticism of their proposals for the number of years under the previous Government, and National Health Service, to take time to reflect on 225 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 226 their position before proceeding further. A similar in policing to work with us to engage constructively on period of reflection on the proposals for police and making these reforms work. Of course, I accept that crime commissioners would not come amiss. They will there are ways in which they can be improved. not make policing work easier. They will cost money The core of the Bill, however, is about accountability. that could be better spent on more police officers It is not about operational policing matters. The Bill fighting crime. The election of police and crime will support operational matters and will not, as has commissioners will potentially politicise the work and been suggested, somehow adversely affect them. That activity of each and every police force, threatening the is why your Lordships did not hear from me this perception of the police as being impartial and evening about many operational policing matters, on independent in dealing with and fighting crime. which Members on the opposition Benches have touched. The work of policing will be further politicised if I agree with those who have said that we have the best elected police and crime commissioners, elected local police service in the world, but we do not have the best authority members or elected mayors have public spats governance of that police service. It is that aspect that with each other over where responsibility and the Bill is designed to improve. accountability lie for levels of crime or the incidence of particular types of crime. Reducing and fighting There have been many queries as to why the reforms crime requires a crucial partnership approach between are needed and why they are needed now. Let me the police and local authorities. Having different arms touch on this again; I spelt it out in my opening of that partnership under different political leadership, remarks, but it is worth repeating one or two of the with different priorities and objectives, will jeopardise points. A number of noble Lords suggested that the and not enhance successful partnership working, and reforms are not needed. We disagree. It is clear, as I with it the continuation of the reduction in the incidence have indicated, that there are some philosophical of crime. differences between us, as well as, I suspect, differences My noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath referred in the assessment of the quality of the situation that to the absence of a Green Paper, pre-legislative scrutiny, we have at the moment. In our view, the case for an impact assessment on the proposals for commissioners change is clear. Police authorities are not sufficiently from HMIC, proposals for referenda on the introduction connected to the public. We know this because only of PCCs and any provision for pilot schemes. The 7 per cent of the public understand that they can Government should think again. The continuation of approach their police authority if they are dissatisfied effective, impartial and non-politicised policing is more with policing. I reject the argument that anonymity important than delivering, without due regard or does not matter. A typical police authority gets only consideration of its consequences and implications, about two letters a week from the public. When the what appears to have become a pet project of at least Mayor of London took on the responsibility of policing one half of the present Government. in our city, the fact that there was a recognisable figure in charge prompted a significant rise in the amount of 11.11 pm correspondence received from the public. The public care and, contrary to what has been suggested, they Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, I am grateful for are not satisfied. At the moment, they simply do not the generally thoughtful tone of the debate this afternoon know whom to call. We believe that some of the and evening, even if it was not especially supportive of provisions, which have not received great attention in the Government’s position. Like other noble Lords, I the debate, for greater transparency in all the proceedings was struck by the fact that it was graced by three that will take place between the police and crime outstanding maiden speeches, from my noble friends commissioner, the chief constable and the PCPs, which Lady Berridge, Lady Newlove and Lord Blencathra. lie at the core of the Bill, will help immensely in Listening to the speech of my noble friend Lady generating greater information about and confidence Newlove, in particular—I agree with those who said in the police. how moving it was; indeed, she told a tragic story—I was reminded that this Bill is also a social responsibility The noble Baroness, Lady Harris, argued that no Bill. I am sure that the whole House hopes that when police authorities had failed their inspections. That is enacted it will reduce the likelihood of the sort of the case, but we do not think that not failing is good incident that she described occurring in the future. enough. As I mentioned, only four police authorities are performing well out of the 22 inspected by HMIC. As time is short, I should like to confine the greater I think that we all agree that HMIC must be respected part of my closing remarks to Part 1 of the Bill. I hope in its judgments. We believe that we can do better than that the House will understand if I do not tackle all that and that the public have a right to expect better the points made, but I hope to touch on the key performance. themes. Something else that struck me in the debate was the fact that many of the doubts expressed by We also think that there is a democratic deficit Members of this House betrayed what I would regard between the authorities and the public whom they are as being a preference for expertise over visible leadership, meant to serve. Only 8 per cent of wards in England reliance on robust democracy and indeed the good and Wales are represented on a police authority. We sense of the electorate—a prejudice that my noble think that the system of governance, even if it is not friend Lord Howard warned us against at the beginning broken, is not performing well enough and requires of the debate. Reliance on the people is not, as some improvement, so we are going to make the changes. noble Lords have suggested, naivety. It is actually We also think that the change is needed now. As I healthy democracy.As against that, I particularly welcome indicated, the Government do not believe that piloting the offer from those who have considerable experience would be helpful. I have no doubt that I will have 227 Police Reform[LORDS] Police Reform 228

[BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES] to hold the chief constable to account as he has at considerable opportunity in Committee to explain in present to the police authority. Not everything has to greater detail why I think that that is the case, but I be spelt out in detail in the legislation as if no one is must inform the House that I will be resisting that idea capable— vigorously. The coalition parties support the direct democratic Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, my point was reform of police authorities. It is interesting that the not that there is not a clear accountability mechanism, Opposition also favour the democratic reform of police because that is set out in the Bill; my point is—it authorities. The only difference between the Opposition applies not just in London but to all the PCCs—that and the coalition Government is how, not whether, it the one-to-one relationship between the elected individual should occur. That puts a point on some of the and the chief officer of police does not allow for the arguments that we have heard tonight. Right at the visible answerability of the chief officer of police, outset of the debate, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, answering questions in public on matters that affect suggested that HMIC be asked to approve the the locality. That is what will disappear in this Bill. Government’s reforms before they are instituted or that there should be a series of local referenda before Baroness Neville-Jones: I do not think that that is they could take effect. If we think, as a House and as the case, my Lords, because there is nothing to stop Parliament, that direct democracy in policing could be meetings taking place in public. Indeed, the records improved, it seems to me odd that we should suggest have to be put into the public domain, so I do not that HMIC should make a judgment on what is clearly think that somehow this relationship will be conducted a political matter. That is not what HMIC is there for. behind closed doors. On the contrary, I think that it As for local referenda, the PCCs are a national policy, will be extremely transparent. One other point I would and a single system of governance is needed. Policing like to make is that the police and crime commissioner crosses force boundaries, just as criminals do, and we can require a chief constable to report on a particular must have a degree of commonality in how it operates, matter, if he does not get co-operation from him, so I do not think that we can go for local referenda. although I do not see why he should not. Both In respect of the arguments made to the effect that accountability and transparent accountability will be these reforms will politicise policing—we have heard a present in arrangements. great deal of that this evening—I want to be absolutely I should like to deal with some of the points where clear: that will not be the case. There is no reason why it was claimed that this new model would be costly and there should not be partnership between the PCC and would introduce unnecessary bureaucracy, and to be the chief constable. Many of the Bill’s provisions are clear about what the model involves. The PCP will not clearly designed as a failsafe, in case there are problems. replace the police authority so those costs are gone. But the whole premise of the Bill is that there should The PCC replaces the police authority and indeed will be partnership. We agree with those who say that there need support staff but, unlike now, they will be held should be partnership, and we are confident that directly to account by the public, so we will require partnership will come about. Equally, it is important, them to publish details of their expenditure and the as the whole House acknowledges—we certainly support public will expect them to deliver value for money. this—that the operational independence of chief officers This creates a very strong incentive to drive costs is not prejudiced. It will not change. Under the 1996 Act down, an incentive which does not exist at present. chiefs will continue to have direction and control of If the House is concerned about costs, I say that the their staff. Operational independence is already protected, alternative models that have been suggested—an elected not just by measures in primary legislation but also in chair of a police authority or indeed an elected police common law and the attestation of all constables on authority—are no less expensive than what we are appointment, as has been said in debate. It is a cornerstone proposing, and would probably be more expensive. We of British policing and nothing—nothing—in the Bill also think they would be less effective. or any protocol that we produce will alter that, but we Finally, I should like to put these reforms into their shall seek to make the principles of the relationship proper context. Some noble Lords have asserted that between the various parties clear in the protocol. PCCs will only be concerned with the local agenda, neglecting national issues and protective services. I It has been well said that the police are answerable had hoped that I had spelt that out adequately in my to the law. Indeed, we are all answerable to the law. But opening remarks, but let me repeat that that is not the the Government see no contradiction between being case. The Bill starts to rebalance the system from the answerable to the law and being accountable. These Government telling local areas what their priorities two things go hand in hand. are to focusing on those issues that are of national I have no doubt that in debate we will spend some importance such as organised crime and counterterrorism. time on the arrangements in London. I am not going To that end, we have included Clause 79 which gives to deal with those this evening, but I should like to powers to the Home Secretary, as I mentioned, to set make a comment on one point raised by the noble out a strategic policing requirement. That is obviously Lord, Lord Harris. He seemed to be suggesting—perhaps an important document. The strategic policing I have him wrong—that because the precise method of requirement will describe the collective capabilities accountability of the chief constable had not been that police forces across England and Wales would prescribed in the legislation, therefore it could be need to have in place in order to protect the public assumed that there was no such answerability. That is from serious harm and maintain national security; not the case. The PCC has the same statutory responsibility that is, the contribution that they would be expected to 229 Police Reform[27 APRIL 2011] Police Reform 230 be capable of making to these national issues. The a clear message that we will not tolerate the sale of police and crime commissioners will have to have alcohol to children. The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, regard to the strategic policing requirement, which asked a number of detailed questions focusing on why means that they may not ignore it when setting out the Government were not doing more in other areas, their police and crime plans. It cannot be the case that and no doubt we will take those in greater detail in their focus can be wholly local. Committee. The point of the Bill is to do something I cannot see how a police and crime commissioner simple, obvious and straightforward, and which is who wished to be regarded as effective would see his capable of being actioned in a way that we hope will duties as not encompassing the things that he needs be effective. However, I quite appreciate that there are when it is quite obvious to the public that he needs to issues other than those set out in the Bill which add up be charged with doing them effectively. When he is to an effective challenge to the increasing abuse of setting out his police and crime plans, they will include alcohol. the discharge by that police force of its national or As for the levy, it applies across the whole licensing international functions, and chief officers will be held authority area because that is the simplest and fairest to account if in any respect they fail to come up to the way of ensuring that all premises that benefit from operational standards that are required. Furthermore, selling alcohol late at night contribute towards costs. all this will be underpinned by the new backstop We have to recognise, as I have just said, that there is a powers which currently apply only to the Metropolitan problem of alcohol abuse in this country and it has to Police Authority for the Home Secretary to enter into be tackled. That is why the emphasis in this Bill is on an agreement with any PCC or the Mayor of London increasing our ability to do just that. on their national and international functions, where it I hope the House will be willing to forego responses is deemed necessary, to direct them to take action. We on the many points raised in relation to Parliament hope that that is not the kind of thing that is going to Square and universal jurisdiction. The noble Lord, be necessary, but clearly the power will be in place if it Lord Marlesford, has promised us a lively debate in has to be exercised. At a later time, as the House is Committee on the first and I have no doubt that we aware, we will be introducing the new national crime shall debate the need for the intervention of the DPP agency which will be a framework for the functions of on the second. The DPP has made it clear that he national scope, and these will cover such things as would be willing and would have the capacity to act organised crime. rapidly in any case and that his intervention would not I turn briefly to the points made on licensing, the act as a delay or a bar on issuing a warrant. first of which is the removal of the vicinity test. I know The core of the debate has been on the PCCs and I there is a fear that this proposal could lead to an want to make two last points. First, the noble Lord, increase in frivolous or vexatious representations, but Lord Boateng, made the point, which I am sure the I have to say that during our consultation, a very large whole House accepts, that we shall need to come number of respondents welcomed greater community together on this Bill to ensure its passage. Secondly, involvement in the licensing process, and they were while I did not accept many of the points made by the clear that the activity related to licensed premises can noble Lord, Lord Harris, he said something with have an effect well beyond the immediate vicinity. The which I profoundly agree; namely, that trust is crucial objectors, of course, have to make a case which is to the preservation of our tradition of unarmed, impartial related to the full purposes of licensing. policing. In making the changes, the Government are On the issue of health bodies becoming responsible determined to preserve this long-standing principle authorities, I can confirm that the Government will and great tradition. I commend the Bill to the House. ensure that in the future this role is compatible with the changes being made to PCTs, but in the short Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee term the PCTs will be the relevant health bodies. As of the Whole House. regards the maximum fine for underage sales of alcohol, by doubling it, the Government are sending to retailers House adjourned at 11.32 pm.

GC 1 Arrangement of Business[27 APRIL 2011] Civil Contingencies Act 2004 GC 2

each with a local resilience forum, based on multi-borough Grand Committee groupings. This reflected London’s particular patterns of public service provision and the different local Wednesday, 27 April 2011. planning needs of the London boroughs. When the Civil Contingencies Act enhancement Arrangement of Business programme was established to review the Act and its accompanying regulations in the light of five years’ Announcement experience, it identified that while the Act was, on the whole, working well, it did not properly reflect how 3.45 pm emergency planning was actually functioning in the The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness capital and the level at which strategic decisions were McIntosh of Hudnall): My Lords, before the Minister being made. While the six multi-borough local resilience moves that the first statutory instrument be considered, forums provided a useful tier of emergency planning, I remind noble Lords that in the case of each statutory the strategic role which a local resilience forum should instrument the Motion before the Committee is that normally take was actually being performed at the the Committee do consider the statutory instrument pan-London level through the London regional resilience in question. I should perhaps make it clear that the forum. This was a non-statutory body at which key Motions to approve the statutory instruments will be responders, central government and the Mayor of moved in the Chamber in the usual way. I remind the London co-operated to give strategic direction to Committee that if there is a Division in the House the emergency planning in London. Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes from the sound Therefore, better to reflect actual emergency planning of the Division Bell. arrangements in London, the local resilience area has been redefined as a single pan-London local resilience Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment area that is based on the Metropolitan Police and City of List of Responders) Order 2011 of London Police areas rather than on the previous six multi-borough groupings. As a result, the former London Considered in Grand Committee regional resilience forum has been redefined as the 3.46 pm London local resilience forum. This change came into force from 1 April and means that emergency planning Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach in London now runs in much the same way as in the That the Grand Committee do report to the rest of the country. House that it has considered the Civil Contingencies The change that we now bring before the Committee Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) is necessary following last year’s closure of the Government Order 2011. Office for London, which played an important role in Relevant document: 17th Report from the Joint emergency planning led by the London resilience team. Committee on Statutory Instruments. Its duties, which included providing secretariat support for the former London regional resilience forum, taking Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I am pleased the lead in non police-led emergencies and ensuring to introduce these new arrangements for civil contingency that resilience plans are in place for the Olympic planning in Greater London. Perhaps it will assist the Games, now need to be delivered elsewhere by other Grand Committee if I give it an overview of emergency parties. It is a function that we cannot afford to lose and current planning in London and of where, why and is a cornerstone of the structure of resilience in and how the Greater London Authority will fit into this. London. The Civil Contingencies Act 2004 and its accompanying regulations and statutory guidance deliver a single The office of the Mayor of London has long been framework for civil protection in the United Kingdom engaged in emergency planning; the Mayor was the that is designed to provide a framework to meet the deputy chair of the London regional resilience forum. resilience challenges of the 21st century. The Act sets He is a figurehead in the event of a major emergency out clear responsibilities for front-line responders and in the capital. We have therefore agreed with the other organisations that need to be involved in the mayor that those local planning and response functions preparation for, response to and recovery from serious previously undertaken by the Government Office for emergencies. The Act divides England and Wales into London that no longer need to remain with central local resilience areas, and each of these areas has a government should pass to the Greater London Authority local resilience forum at which planning and preparation as the strategic non-political authority that supports for emergencies is co-ordinated among emergency both the mayor and the Assembly, and that this should responders. Outside London, there are 37 local resilience be properly reflected in legislation. areas in England and four in Wales based on police The GLA’s new role involves working closely with force boundaries. London’s emergency responders and being involved at Arrangements for emergency planning in London the heart of strategic emergency planning for the have, since the introduction of the Act in 2005, functioned capital. The GLA should therefore take on the same slightly differently from those in place in the rest of legal status and duties as other responders in London, the country, due mainly to London’s size and its including the duties to co-operate and to share information unique position as a capital city. Rather than a single and helping to build a strong relationship through local resilience area based on police force boundaries, which the GLA can best carry out its new role. The there have been six local resilience areas for London, GLA assumed many of its new responsibilities following GC 3 Civil Contingencies Act 2004[LORDS] Charities Order 2011 GC 4

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] unstable times when we have the Olympics upon us in the closure of the Government Office for London in the very near future, I would be grateful for an assurance December last year. We now have an opportunity to from the Minister that resistance plans for the Olympic formalise its role in legislation. I beg to move. Games will be safeguarded and enhanced by this legislation. Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, I welcome this measure and thank my noble friend Lord Taylor Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I am very for his clear description of the purposes and the changes grateful to both noble Lords who have spoken for that are to take place under the Civil Contingencies their welcoming of this draft order and for their Act to reflect the new structure of local government in support for what I think is widely seen as a logical London more appropriately by involving the Greater development. London Authority.The timeliness of the measure seems particularly clear in the light of the imminent international The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, sought perhaps descent on London at the time of the Olympic Games. to broaden the debate into the wider issue of public It is very much to be hoped that this structural change bodies. I will resist that temptation except to say that will give rise to discussions about potential risk and clearly there will be opportunities for a more streamlined about the continuing responsibility for eliminating dangers. management of London’s affairs through the Greater London Authority.That is one of the strategic advantages I believe that the Government have also received a that this move will provide for. There will indeed be publication, in response to the consultation on the financial demands on the Greater London Authority, second phase, on 14 March. Although that response but the comprehensive spending review incorporated goes wider than this order, I hope that the Minister in that responsibility in forward funding for the authority replying to the debate might be able to say something from central government—this process is being seen as about how that report reveals what has been considered driven not by economy but by efficiency and by the and, in particular, the extent of the review of emergency need for London to be properly co-ordinated. While preparedness. the six key borough groupings provided the function, This measure is entirely welcome. I hope that your in the end the reality is that London is a whole and has Lordships’ Committee and the House will enact it as to be dealt with as a whole. The support that can be soon as possible. given by the GLA and by its resilience team is of paramount importance. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I too thank I can say that the actual priorities in setting out a the Minister for his clear explanation. However, I resilience plan are of course a matter for the local wonder whether the order comes back to the much resilience authorities and, indeed, the forum that gives heralded bonfire of the quangos and the abolition of advice on such matters. These things are not immutable, government offices throughout the UK. Thanks to the but the risk assessment for the Olympics has been in tremendous changes following the Minister’s work on place for a number of years and is regularly updated. I the Public Bodies Bill, we know that the vast sums that can assure the noble Baroness that there is no suggestion the Government initially planned to secure as a result that the comprehensive focus of the London resilience of a bonfire of the quangos that will get rid of government forum and the resilience team in addressing the needs offices throughout the UK will not be realised. I make of London will in any way be compromised by this no criticism of that, as I believe that that is in many legislation. ways the difference between the rhetoric of opposition I thank my noble friend Lord Maclennan of Rogart and the realism of government. However, it is clear for his broad welcome, too. He made the powerful that, even if a body such as the Government Office for point that, with the Olympics being so imminent, we London has been abolished, the functions still have to are very much focused on security. Indeed, we have be maintained. That is why this order is so important, events this week as well that show how important it is because it will ensure the continuity of these very that all aspects of security are taken care of. He asked important duties. about the response to the report. I am not in a position The order does not raise any problems as far as I to help him on that, but perhaps there might be an can see. As the Minister said, it will bring London opportunity to write to him subsequent to our discussions more into line with what is happening in the rest of the today. country, which is of course to be welcomed. I also I hope that the Committee will be able to commend note that the costs will all be for the GLA, so central these draft proposals. government will not face any increased burden. The Motion agreed. Explanatory Memorandum states: “The impact on business, charities or voluntary bodies”, Charities (Pre-consolidation Amendments) and, Order 2011 “on the public sector is minimal”. However, I would be grateful for one assurance from Considered in Grand Committee the Minister. As a consequence of these structural 4pm changes, can he assure us that all the services that are mentioned in paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Moved by Baroness Verma Memorandum will be safeguarded? Of course, pandemics That the Grand Committee do report to the and severe weather are both of the utmost importance. House that it has considered the Charities (Pre- As the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, said, in these consolidation Amendments) Order 2011. GC 5 Charities Order 2011[27 APRIL 2011] Charities Order 2011 GC 6

Relevant document: 18th Report from the Joint but does not currently exist for certain charity group Committee on Statutory Instruments. accounts. The amendment in paragraph 31(g) removes that inconsistency. Baroness Verma: My Lords, the draft order before An example of how the language used has been us today is a technical order that makes minor updated is in paragraph 7 of the schedule, which now amendments to charity law. It will be made in preparation uses the word “provide” instead of the original word for the consolidation of charity legislation via the “furnish”, as in providing documents instead of furnishing Charities Bill 2011, which was introduced to this House them. Paragraph 15 of the schedule removes an obsolete on 3 March. reference to the Incorporated Society of Valuers and The aim of this order is merely to tidy up some Auctioneers, which merged with the Royal Institution minor points in the existing legislation before charities of Chartered Surveyors in January 2000. legislation is consolidated. It might help if I first give a An example of how the order clarifies legislation is little background to the Charities Bill itself before contained in paragraph 18 of the schedule. In the explaining the purpose of this order. The purpose of context of a section that refers to both the Audit the Charities Bill is: to bring together provisions of the Commission and the Charity Commission, the reference main legislation on charities in England and Wales to “the Commission” is changed to the “Charity into a single piece of legislation; to simplify the structure Commission” to avoid any potential confusion. The of the existing legislation, making it more accessible to structure of the legislation has also been improved to the lay person; and to replace provisions in the make it easier to follow. However, this has led to the Recreational Charities Act 1958, the Charities Acts need for some pre-consolidation amendments. For 1993 and relevant provisions of the Charities Act 2006. example, paragraph 11 of the schedule facilitates the Due to the fragmentation of charity legislation, it splitting of Section 18 of the 1993 Act into a number has become increasingly difficult to navigate the law in of separate sections in the consolidation Bill. Section 18, this area, not least as the Charities Act 2006 made which provides the Charity Commission with various extensive amendments to the Charities Act 1993. The powers to act for the protection of charities, is long Bill will fulfil a commitment given during the passage and complex, so splitting it up should make the text of the Charities Act 2006 in response to noble Lords easier to navigate. who requested that charity legislation should be The order also makes consequential amendments, consolidated to make it easier to follow, particularly in particular changing various cross-references, that for non-expert charity trustees. The Law Commission, will result from splitting up Section 18. The draft which is responsible for consolidation Bills, responded order was consulted on in 2009 as part of the wider favourably to a request from the Cabinet Office, and consultation on the draft Charities Bill, and we received the result is the Charities Bill, which was introduced positive responses. I hope noble Lords will agree that last month. the order is a useful tool for clearing up some outstanding Neither the order nor the Bill itself makes any issues in charity law before the Charities Bill completes substantive changes to charity law.The types of amendments its passage through Parliament. There will be a review that the order makes fall into the following categories: of the Charities Act 2006, starting later this year. This correcting minor mistakes in the existing legislation or will provide an opportunity to look again at the legal remedying missed consequential amendments; removing framework for charities in England and Wales, and to inconsistencies in the existing legislation; modernising consider whether the policies that lie behind the legislation the language of the existing legislation; repealing provisions are working in practice. in the existing legislation that are now considered As a consolidation Bill, the Charities Bill represents obsolete; clarifying the effect of the existing legislation; a small but useful step forward in simplifying the and consequential provisions relating to other provisions legislative framework for charities and supports the of this order. Government’s aim of making it easier to set up and I will give a couple of examples to assist the Committee. run a charity, as it will make charity law more accessible One example of correcting a minor mistake is in to the lay charity trustee. We have a window of paragraph 4 of the schedule to the order relating to opportunity to tidy up what has become a confusing the Charities Act 1993, which provided that, and messy legislative landscape, and it would be a “In the exercise of its functions the commission shall not be shame to lose this chance. This order will pave the way subject to the direction or control of any Minister of the Crown for the consolidation of charity law. I beg to move. or other government department”. The use of the words “or other” in this context gives the impression that a Minister of the Crown is a Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I thank my government department. Clearly this is not the case, as noble friend the Minister for the way in which she gave while a Minister of the Crown may be in charge of a a tour d’horizon of this statutory instrument. As she government department, he or she is not a department rightly says, this is a prelude to the consolidation Bill, per se. The amendment in this order avoids this which starts in this House next Thursday, although I misinterpretation while retaining the allusion to the do not think that anyone will be there—I notice that fact that the Charity Commission is a government the Commons is not sitting on that day. department. A very important aspect of the debates on the Paragraph 31 deals with various inconsistencies Charities Bill that led to the Charities Act 2006 was relating to rights of appeal to the Charity Tribunal. that we were to have a consolidation measure. I was, I For example, a right of appeal exists where the Charity think, foremost in urging that and in getting the Commission requires a charity’s accounts to be audited, Government to put it into the Bill so that we could be GC 7 Charities Order 2011[LORDS] Charities Order 2011 GC 8

[LORD PHILLIPS OF SUDBURY] right of the commission to make an order appointing quite sure that it would happen. As my noble friend additional charity trustees. My problem with again so rightly says, the danger with our efforts here paragraph 24—and I read it many times—is that is that, while they might be just about comprehensible sub-paragraph (2) seems to be wholly superfluous. It to the specialist lawyer, the Charity Commission, the says: parliamentary draftsmen and the civil servants involved, “Nothing in sub-paragraph (1) affects any appointment of a they are a closed book to everyone else. Given that charity trustee made before the commencement of that sub- 95 per cent of our charities have no paid staff, and that paragraph”— all trustees are volunteers, it is a very serious predicament. that is, before the consolidation Act comes into effect. Although the consolidation measure is more than As I said, that is wholly superfluous because one 300 pages, it will go some little way to making life a cannot make retrospective legislation other than in tad easier for those who are doing the job on the rare circumstances and with the greatest possible clarity ground. and want of ambiguity. That is my first point. I should like to refer to two aspects of this statutory instrument. Noble Lords may agree that there can be 4.15 pm few pieces of legislation more sleep inducing than the More importantly, one can put up with superfluity Charities (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Order 2011. but paragraph 24(3) seems to make substantive changes Indeed, so arcane is most of the language that you to the effect of Section 79(2), as amended, of the have to be a bit of an egg-head to plunge into its Charities Act 1993—substantive changes which can depths. only be made in the manner plainly intended here if drafted differently from the way they have been drafted Lord Davies of Oldham: Oh! here. Their drafting here may appeal to the layman but if, as I contend, the change will substantively alter the effect of Section 79(2), it has to be couched in language Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I beg the noble Lord’s which achieves that. That means saying that in pardon. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, Section 79(2) the words “whatever” shall be removed had uttered a witticism. and the words “whatever” shall be introduced instead. In effect, one would be putting most of sub-paragraph Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I was merely (3) in inverted commas with words preceding the expressing approval of the fact that it is the noble inverted commas making it clear just where those new Lord who is displaying his egg-head qualities. provisions are to be inserted in Section 79(2). I apologise for that explanation—if anyone has Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I should like the Minister managed to follow me, I am both surprised and grateful— to give a little explanation of paragraph 10 of the but for the sake of the record one has to explain what schedule to the order, and I have given her notice of one is up to and I have done my best. Again, I have that. The paragraph goes to the heart of the relationship given notice, although not long notice, of this to the between this order, the consolidation Bill and the Minister. We will be able to do something about it Houses of Parliament. To be frank, try as I did, I because we can make an amendment to the consolidation could not perfectly understand where things were left Bill and, as that will be at the Committee stage, we by paragraph 10. My understanding is that, if in shall have a bit of time to do so. I shall shut up at this Section 17(2) of the 2006 Act the Minister is given the point. power to make an order, it is superfluous then to go on to say, Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I, too, “and a draft of the order shall be laid before Parliament”. thank the Minister for her explanation of the order That follows. However, I became a little lost with the and for the background information that she omissions and additions later in paragraph 10, and if provided. She is of course correct when she says that the Minister is able to cast enlightenment on that I the previous Government—my Government—made a shall be most grateful. commitment to seek a consolidation of the charities My only other point is more substantial and concerns legislation subject to support from the Law paragraph 24 of the schedule to the order, which Commission, which the commission has now given. I relates to Section 79(2) of the 1993 Act. This is an am very glad that we heeded the wise advice of the important provision in the Act. At the start, paragraph 24 noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. We look says that in Section 79(2) the word “ratepayers” is to forward to discussing the consolidation Bill, although be omitted. This provision is designed to ensure that it will not be I who does that next week as I shall be parochial charities have a governing body or a group otherwise engaged. of trustees that is fit for purpose in the 21st century. I note that the amendments made by the order are Section 79(2) of the 1993 Act, as amended by the not considered to make substantive changes to the law 2006 Act, says that the Charity Commission may or to introduce new policy, and I rely on the incisiveness allow the appointment of trustees to parochial charities and expertise of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, because in the circumstances described in Section 79(2). I do not have the talent of an egg-head. I further note Paragraph 24(1) says that “ratepayers” shall be deleted that in a consultation about the consolidation, there from the description of those persons who shall have were only two responses about the draft order, so power in future to appoint trustees, or at least it does clearly not a lot of people out there have deep, if any, not eliminate their powers to appoint but it affects the concerns. GC 9 Charities Order 2011[27 APRIL 2011] Companies Act 2006 Order 2011 GC 10

I have one rather simple question. The noble Baroness Companies Act 2006 (Consequential mentioned the review which will take place later this Amendments and Transitional Provisions) year. I wonder when we can expect the results of the review and also how the Government will act on those Order 201 results. I realise that the report of the review will be Considered in Grand Committee debated in Parliament but I wonder whether this might lead to further legislation, further simplification or 4.23 pm what. I do not know how these things work and I should be grateful for some clarification from the Moved By Lord De Mauley Minister. That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Companies Act 2006 Baroness Verma: My Lords, I am most grateful for (Consequential Amendments and Transitional the warm welcome for the order from my noble friend Provisions) Order 2011. and the noble Baroness. This has been a very short debate but it has been very informed, and I am glad Relevant document: 18th Report from the Joint that I have an egg-head in my noble friend on my side. Committee on Statutory Instruments. Although I tried very hard to follow and navigate my way through what he was saying, at times I got slightly Lord De Mauley: My Lords, perhaps I may explain lost and tried to refer back to the order. I am also by way of background to the order that the Companies grateful to my noble friend for giving me prior notice Act 2006 provided for a single consolidated company of the two questions which he has put. I will try my law regime to apply across the whole of the United level best to respond. If I fail still to allay any of his Kingdom. It repealed most of the Companies Act 1985, concerns, I shall write to him and put a copy of the the Companies (Northern Ireland) Order 1986 and letter in the Library. the Open-Ended Investment Companies Act (Northern My noble friend asked, first, about the amendments Ireland) 2002. made by paragraph 10 of the schedule, which gives Before I go into the details of this order, which effect to the recommendations of the Brooke committee makes various amendments that, as its name implies, of 1972-73 to rationalise statutory instrument procedure. are consequential on the commencement of the 2006 Act, The committee recommended that the procedure in I shall touch briefly on some of the background to the Statutory Instruments Act 1946, whereby a statutory that Act. It was commenced in stages between Royal instrument subject to the negative procedure had to be Assent in November of that year and the final laid in draft before both Houses, should be avoided. commencement order which came into force in The amendment removes that aspect of the statutory October 2009. Indeed, there have already been eight instrument process for orders made under Section 17 orders commencing various provisions of the Act, and of the Charities Act 1993, which provides a mechanism five orders making amendments required as a for parliamentary scrutiny of a Charity Commission consequence of its passing. This order is designed to scheme that alters the constitution of a charity governed complete and consolidate that lengthy process. The by statute. Such orders will still be laid before Parliament legislation that is amended by this order comprises the and can be prayed against. Companies Act 2006 and various instruments that My noble friend also asked a valid question about contain references to the Companies Act 1985 as well paragraph 24 of the schedule. It is not our intention to as other legislation that has been superseded, repealed make a substantive change to Section 79. We shall or revoked by the 2006 Act. look carefully at the point that my noble friend has raised and refer it to the drafters of the Bill. If necessary, I turn to the specifics of today’s order. Most of the we will confirm that the appropriate amendments will articles make amendments to regulations in the area be made before the Bill goes to the Joint Committee of financial services by updating them so as to refer to for consideration. We will write with further details the relevant provisions of the 2006 Act rather than the once the drafter has considered my noble friend’s old, superseded provisions of, for instance, the Companies question. I hope that my noble friend feels a little Act 1985. more satisfied by my responses. Among the pieces of legislation to which such The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, asked about the amendments are made is the Open-Ended Investment review. There is no firm timetable as yet, but the Companies Regulations 2001, which are amended so review must begin before 8 November and its report that they apply to any open-ended investment companies be laid before Parliament. We anticipate the review incorporated in Northern Ireland. The order also concluding some time in 2012, but it is too early to contains transitional provisions to ensure a smooth say how long it will take to take forward any changeover for such companies to the requirements of recommendations. the 2001 regulations. The order also formally revokes two pieces of secondary legislation which were effectively I hope that I have answered the questions of my superseded by the Companies Act 2006; namely, the noble friend and the noble Baroness. It has been a very Companies (Single Member Private Limited Companies) short debate, but I hope that I have been able to satisfy Regulations 1992 and the equivalent Northern Ireland noble Lords. I hope that my noble friend will be in the regulations of that year. Chamber next Thursday, or I shall feel very lonely debating the Charities Bill all on my own. The order also makes a small number of correcting measures to address some minor errors in certain Motion agreed. companies-related legislation. The amendments will GC 11 Companies Act 2006 Order 2011[LORDS] Companies Act 2006 Order 2011 GC 12

[LORD DE MAULEY] Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful ensure that that legislation is clear and easily applied. that I waited for the contribution of the noble Lord, With your Lordships’ permission, I do not propose to Lord Razzall, because as a veteran of the discussions go through them in detail, although I should like to on that very long Bill—while I was idly occupied, or draw attention to two changes. underoccupied, elsewhere—he is to be congratulated on the work that he did on it. Of course, that Bill was The first arises because the Companies Act 2006 such a massive measure that it led to anxieties about allows a public limited company to have a single whether it was sufficiently comprehensive in ironing member whereas the Insolvency Act 1986 stipulates out aspects that affected previous legislation. That was that having only one member is a ground for winding a cause of concern, which he expressed at the time and up a plc. For this reason, Article 6 of today’s order which I recall my noble friend Lord Sainsbury of repeals this provision of the Insolvency Act to ensure Turville being concerned to respond to. I agree with consistency and avoid any confusion. him that it hurts a little bit for the Official Opposition Secondly, the order amends the power in Section 766 to congratulate the Government even in minor ways, of the 2006 Act which, among other things, enables but we are relieved to see that there are only minor regulations to be made for determining whether a emendations in the draft order. We also note that the public company which reduces its share capital and Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee found no has shares denominated in more than one currency reason to express anxiety about it. continues to satisfy the statutory requirement to have share capital at or above a minimum aggregate value I am extremely grateful to the Minister for clearly in sterling or euros. The current drafting of Section 766 and accurately expressing the salient aspects of this means that regulations cannot be made dealing with really rather complex issue while sparing us the the situation where a public company reduces its share considerable detail with which he could have belaboured capital and is left with all its capital denominated in the Committee if he had cared to do so. However, one one currency other than sterling or euros, such as aspect on which I had a little anxiety, although this is Swiss francs or US dollars. Article 28 of the order probably more concerned with language than with corrects Section 766 so that regulations can be made substance, is that the Explanatory Memorandum from dealing with this situation. There will now be a mechanism the Treasury—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord for establishing clearly whether such a company continues Razzall, was half-reflecting this—uses that wonderful to meet the minimum capital requirement. word “impliedly”. As I have never used that word nor heard it used on any occasion, although I could not The rationale behind all the amendments made by doubt that the Treasury had used the term accurately, the order is to ensure that companies legislation is I looked it up. Indeed, the Treasury has used the term clear, consistent and coherent. I think that the order is accurately, as there is such an adverb, used somewhat uncontroversial. It is simple; it ensures greater consistency; infrequently in this context, which means, and it removes contradiction. As such, it is good for business and I commend it to the Committee. “hinted at or suggested; not directly expressed”. Well, I understand the point that is being made, as we Lord Razzall: My Lords, before we approve the are clarifying the issue and making explicit what is in order, as we clearly should, we should look at what has the legislation. However, I would just say that the happened since 2006. Noble Lords who lived through word has a slightly weasel quality, as if it is covering the various stages of the Companies Bill of that year, certain anxieties about the past. Therefore, I will say which was probably the longest Bill in the history of that I am grateful that it is now being made clear that this House, will remember that we on these Benches what was impliedly in the legislation is now there argued from an early stage that it should be a consolidation explicitly and properly as a result of this instrument. Bill. Its first draft did not constitute a consolidation For that reason, we welcome the order. Bill but was a huge Bill with different clauses. The noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury of Turville, who was the relevant Labour Minister at the time, eventually came Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I am grateful to both to us and said that he had won his argument internally noble Lords for their comments and to the Committee and now thought that it should be a consolidation Bill. for considering this draft order. As I said earlier, the However, he asked whether, if he was prepared to draft order is uncontroversial. Most of its articles concede that point to those of us who were arguing for make amendments to regulations by updating them so it, we would agree that we would not go back for as to refer to the relevant provisions of the Companies another 25 days in Committee going through, clause Act 2006 rather than, for instance, to the superseded by clause, the consolidation procedures. I responded provisions of the 1985 Act. that I was certainly happy to give that undertaking My noble friend Lord Razzall referred to the lengthy provided there was not some obvious omission or process of the 2006 Act. I congratulate him and those howler in the process of consolidation. Looking at this other stalwart noble Lords who had the stamina to order, I have to congratulate the drafters of that Bill sustain them through that process. I thank him for his because we require only these few, very minor, changes support today. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord of things that were missed at the time of the Bill. I am Davies, for his helpful comments. I commend the glad that we had a consolidation Bill of that nature, order to the Committee. although whether the Butterworths the publishers are so happy remains to be seen. I certainly support the order. Motion agreed. GC 13 Companies Act 2006 Order 2011[27 APRIL 2011] Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 GC 14

Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 (Time The first affirmative statutory instrument that we are Limit for Appeals) (Amendment) discussing today makes the required amendments to this Act. The time limits governing appeals about Regulations 2011 AFCS awards heard in England and Wales are provided Considered in Grand Committee in the Tribunal Procedure Rules. These rules have been amended to increase the time limit for appealing to 4.35 pm 12 months, with the changes coming into force from 9 May.To ensure consistency and fairness, this affirmative Moved by Lord Astor of Hever instrument also increases the time limit for bringing appeals in respect of all other types of decisions That the Grand Committee do report to the capable of appeal under the Pensions Appeal Tribunal House that it has considered the Pensions Appeal Act 1943, including decisions made in relation to the Tribunals Act 1943 (Time Limit for Appeals) War Pensions Scheme. (Amendment) Regulations 2011. The second statutory instrument is on the subject Relevant document: 19th Report from the Joint of rights of appeal. The intent is to make it clear that Committee on Statutory Instruments. two types of new decision under the scheme do not carry appeal rights. The first relates to claims for a fast The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry payment. This is a new provision introduced to enable of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My Lords, I start by those who have a serious injury due to service to paying tribute to the brave men and women of our receive an early payment before going through the full Armed Forces. They deserve our admiration but, more compensation claim process. This helps to provide than that, they deserve to be treated with respect, and them and their families with some early financial they rightly expect the nation to honour their commitment. support and reassurance during what can be a very We have a duty to those injured due to service to difficult time. If the final award is less than the value provide a just and fair compensation scheme for them. of the fast payment, no money will be recovered. The Armed Forces Compensation Scheme came Where additional money is payable, the balance is into force on 6 April 2005 to pay compensation for transferred to the claimant. The decision on the final injury, illness or death caused by service. This provides award carries appeal rights. As the fast payment decision lump-sum payments and, for the more seriously injured, is not a final decision, the instrument being debated a guaranteed income for life. It replaced the previous today excludes fast payment decisions from the list of compensation arrangements provided by the War Pensions decisions capable of being appealed. Not to make this Scheme and the attributable elements of the Armed change would result in a rather confusing system for Forces Pension Scheme. claimants. The new scheme is a significant improvement on The second new type of payment is for medical the previous arrangements. Injured service men and expenses incurred abroad by seriously injured personnel women are now able to claim compensation while they who decide to live permanently outside the UK within are still in service. The previous Government should a year of leaving the Armed Forces. This power broadens be commended for introducing the scheme in 2005, as the scope of the scheme. As the noble and gallant well as for initiating a review of the Armed Forces Lord, Lord Boyce, recognised in his report, this new Compensation Scheme in 2009 to ensure that it continues power is discretionary, so it would not be appropriate to support the needs of the Armed Forces. for it to have external appeal rights but rather an On 10 February 2010, the then Secretary of State individual would be able to request the MoD to reconsider announced the outcome of the review conducted under its decision. This remains open to individuals if they the independent chairmanship of the noble and gallant are not content with the decision made on their behalf. Lord, Lord Boyce. I am very grateful to him for the These two statutory instruments are the next step in thorough way in which he conducted the review and ensuring that the AFCS remains fit for purpose for for producing such a meticulous report. The Ministry our service personnel. I beg to move. of Defence committed to implementing all his recommendations within a year. The more straightforward Lord Grantchester: I join the Minister in paying changes were put in revised legislation in July 2010. tribute to all the brave men and women who serve in The more detailed recommendations were laid in new our Armed Forces. They deserve our respect and legislation on 28 February 2011. The two affirmative admiration and rightly expect society, through government, instruments for debate today complete the legislative to honour commitments to them, especially to those changes required to implement the full package of injured in service. changes. I thank the Minister for his explanation of these The first statutory instrument relates to time limits regulations. These Benches endorse his remarks and for appeals if an individual is not happy with the support enactment. We agree that the new scheme is a decision made on a compensation claim. The intent is significant improvement on previous arrangements. to extend the time limit for appealing decisions made As the Minister explained, the two instruments complete under the AFCS from six to 12 months. This recognises the legislative changes required to implement the full that the nature of service life may prevent claimants package following the review undertaken by the noble picking up their mail and making an appeal within the and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce. I understand that the current time limit of six months. For appeals heard in review team spoke to and received comments from Scotland and Northern Ireland, this requires Section 8 over 200 individuals and groups, including serving of the Pensions Appeal Tribunal Act 1943 to be amended. members of the Armed Forces, their families, reservists, GC 15 Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943[LORDS] Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 GC 16

[LORD GRANTCHESTER] The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has already veterans and the general public. The noble and gallant touched on the specifics of the ongoing process of Lord, Lord Boyce, and his team visited serving Royal reviewing the scheme. Is there an inbuilt structure Navy, Army and RAF personnel in their bases as well which means that we will constantly keep an eye on it as at Headley Court. The noble and gallant Lord also as changes take place? If there is, I think that many spoke to Ministers, the Chief of the Defence Staff, the people will be reassured. We will never get it right for heads of the three services and the judiciary. The all time with changes in medical technology, survival review concluded that the basic principles of the Armed rates and so on, but if we were to have a look at the Forces Compensation Scheme were correct. However, thinking here, that would help those of us who take an it found areas where further improvements needed to interest in this matter. be made. The review findings have been well received. Perhaps we could also have a little more information Ministers have agreed to implement all the on the body that has been set up. Knowing where it recommendations. The Minister has today outlined started from would be a help. As I said, the scheme the key areas regarding compensation and appeals. may not be the most generous in the world but it seems However, there are other key recommendations that to be a vast improvement on what preceded it and it were also agreed to be taken forward, and I shall ask provides a point from which to develop. An understanding the Minister about two of them. First, there was a of the logical basis and development of the process recommendation to set up a new expert medical body will help those outside and in the forces to have an to advise on compensation for particular illnesses and idea of how they are viewed and how development injuries, such as hearing loss and mental illness. Will will occur. That is something that we could usefully do the Minister update us on the latest position regarding today: we could put down a basis for future developments this new body? How many people will sit on it? Who for as long as we will unfortunately need a scheme will lead it? How will it operate and how extensive will such as this. its role be? Secondly, the review recommended that there should Lord Boyce: I support the Motion to implement the be improvements in communication to service personnel two instruments, which very much fall within the and their families to promote a better understanding recommendations from the AFCS review report. I of how the scheme works, including entitlements, and think that some of the questions that noble Lords how the calculations behind those entitlements are have asked were addressed in the report, and I am sure made. This should not only increase awareness but that the Minister will have adequate answers for them. raise confidence among our armed service personnel that their welfare is important. I ask the noble Lord to assure us that this matter is also being attended to. Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I start by thanking all noble Lords for their support for the regulations. 4.45 pm As I said in my opening remarks, the previous Government The Armed Forces Compensation Scheme, introduced should be commended for introducing the scheme, as by the previous Labour Administration and subsequently well as for initiating a review of the AFCS. reviewed and improved here today, is agreed to be fit I shall try to answer the questions asked by the for purpose and is not in dispute. However, I ask for noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. First, he asked how the noble Lord’s assessment of how it compares with the scheme compares with other schemes in the UK other compensation schemes in the UK and overseas. and internationally. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Although I recognise that the AFCS goes some way Boyce, and his independent scrutiny group undertook to compensate the injured and the families of those comparisons with other schemes and compensation who have died, there are one or two discrepancies that arrangements, and acknowledged that some adverse can occur around the fringes of the scheme—often comparisons had been made in the media. The guaranteed with regard to dates. Our Armed Forces have served in income payment of an award can be the most financially operations in Afghanistan since 2001, as well as in beneficial part of a compensation package. This tax Iraq in 2003. Is the Minister content that those injured repayment over a lifetime is worth many hundreds of after 6 April 2005 receive awards under the AFCS thousands of pounds and is not capped, whereas other scheme, whereas those who were injured merely one compensation schemes may be subject to limits. day before do not? Perhaps he can explain. A fair and The noble Lord’s last question related to Afghanistan respected compensation scheme must be a given for and Iraq and to compensation payments. our Armed Forces, and I am content to endorse these The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce, considered provisions today. carefully whether improvements should be made available to those who were injured before the start of the Lord Addington: I am sorry to delay the Committee scheme in April 2005. The conclusion was that the but I wish to say only a couple of things. This scheme—as improvements should not be backdated before that the previous Government brought it in, I think we can date. Those injured due to service prior to 6 April 2005 pass on our congratulations to them—seems to be an qualify for compensation from the War Pensions Scheme. improvement on what went before it, and it certainly Although the War Pensions Scheme was first designed seems to be much more fit for purpose than what it over 90 years ago and still provides valuable benefits replaced. When you are dealing with the Armed Forces for those who rely on it for compensation for their and anyone who has been injured, there is always a service-related injuries. Backdating improvements for part of you that wants to say, “Give them more”. a particular group would create new distinctions between However, I appreciate that there are limits. that group and others who had suffered injury due to GC 17 Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943[27 APRIL 2011] Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 GC 18 service all the way back to when the War Pensions communicate with service personnel. The Independent Scheme was introduced in 1917. That would be a Medical Expert Group is about to publish a report significant financial undertaking. that identifies its initial findings and recommendations My noble friend Lord Addington asked about the and that will address the very important issue raised new financial group, the Independent Medical Expert by my noble friend about how service personnel will Group, and in answering I hope that I will address all be communicated with. his questions. The Independent Medical Expert Group I thank noble Lords and the noble and gallant Lord of leading medical experts is undertaking its work on for their support. Our Armed Forces are indeed a behalf of the MoD. It is chaired by Professor Sir special group of people and should be properly Anthony Newman Taylor of Imperial College London’s compensated for injury or illness arising from what we faculty of medicine, and it comprises six medical ask them to do on our behalf. I commend both sets of experts, two service representatives and Colonel Jerome regulations to the Committee. Church, who is the chief executive of BLESMA. They are appointed by Ministers. Motion agreed. This group was set up in March 2010 on the recommendations made by the review of the AFCS, led by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce, to Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 advise Ministers on certain complex injuries that had (Armed Forces and Reserve Forces been raised during the review as requiring further Compensation Scheme) (Rights of Appeal) detailed medical consideration. These were, specifically, injury to genitalia, non-freezing cold injury, paired Regulations 2011 injuries, brain injury, spinal cord injury, loss of the use Considered in Grand Committee of a limb, mental illness and hearing loss. The group has examined each of these types of injury and has 4.54 pm formulated recommendations to ensure that the AFCS appropriately compensates for them. IMEG’s initial Moved by Lord Astor of Hever recommendations will be published in the next few That the Grand Committee do report to the weeks, and the group will continue its work through to House that it has considered the Pensions Appeal 2012 in order to consider fully the issues raised by the Tribunals Act 1943 (Armed Forces and Reserve noble and gallant Lord. Forces Compensation Scheme) (Rights of Appeal) My noble friend asked who will provide a constant Regulations 2011. eye on the progress of the AFCS. The Central Advisory Committee on Pensions and Compensation will continue Relevant document: 19th Report from the Joint to provide an ongoing overview of the AFCS post the Committee on Statutory Instruments. implementation of the noble and gallant Lord’s recommendations. Motion agreed. I think that I have covered all noble Lords’ questions, although there was also a question about how we Committee adjourned at 4.55 pm.

WS 9 Written Statements[27 APRIL 2011] Written Statements WS 10

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ Written Statements cm201011/cmgeneral/deleg4/110328/ 110328s01.htm. Wednesday 27 April 2011 http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ ld201011/ldhansrd/text/110329-gc0001. Correction to Lords Written Answer htm#11032963000180 Statement Both speeches made reference to the introduction of a new fee for providing certain stateless persons the ability to acquire the status of British protected person. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The status means they can receive consular protection, of Health (Earl Howe): My honourable friend the a British passport and are eligible to register as a Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department British citizen if they meet the appropriate criteria. of Health (Anne Milton) has made the following Written The volumes under this route are minimal. However, it Ministerial Statement. is a cost to the agency to process these applications In answering a parliamentary question from the and we believe that the rights associated with this honourable Member for Worthing West, (Sir Peter status are valuable and therefore these applications Bottomley), (Official Report, 1 March 2011, col. 379w), should be charged for. I provided details of the protection afforded by I can confirm that this fee was erroneously omitted the two HPV vaccines licensed for use in the from the regulations and as such will not be introduced United Kingdom. These are Cervarix manufactured as planned. A very small number of people are estimated by GlaxoSmithKline and Gardasil manufactured by to have been affected by this—there have been only Sanofi Pasteur MSD. two such applications in the past 12 years. I am now However my answer also referred to the cross- announcing a correction to the speech made during protection afforded by Cervarix, but I omitted to the debates. My officials will ensure that this is made provide equivalent information on Gardasil and in clear to any applicants applying under this route, on doing so may have presented an incomplete view to the UK Border Agency website, www.ukba.homeoffice. the House. gov.uk. However, I will also take the opportunity to In the case of Gardasil, the Summary of Product introduce this fee when I next make an amendment to Characteristics states that, the existing regulations. “statistically significant efficacy against disease was demonstrated against HPV types … related to HPV 16 (primarily HPV 31) whereas no statistically significant efficacy was observed for HPV types … related to HPV 18 (including HPV 45). For the 10 individual Department for Communities and Local HPV types, statistical significance was only reached for HPV 31.” Government To ensure clarity and completeness of information Statement about the efficacy of both vaccines, I have placed copies of their Summary of Product Characteristics in the Library. Copies of the SPCs for Cervarix and for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Gardasil are available for honourable Members from for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): the Vote Office and for noble Lords from the Printed My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Paper Office. They can also be seen at: Communities and Local Government (Eric Pickles) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/20204/SPC/ Cervarix/ Transparency www.medicines.org.uk/EMC/medicine/19016/SPC/ The department continues to reinforce the importance GARDASIL/ of local transparency, audit openness and accountability. On 13 April, I announced new transparency rules which will require councils to publicise to the press Correction: Immigration and Nationality and public, on their website, the little-known rights to (Fees) Regulations 2011 inspect their detailed financial accounts, ledgers and records. Statement In a deregulatory move, changes will also reduce the financial bureaucracy and burdens imposed on the The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- smallest local authorities. Increasing the budget threshold Jones): My honourable friend the Minister of State for to £6.5 million, means that up to 100 smaller local Immigration (Damian Green) has today made the bodies (assorted parish councils, drainage boards and following Written Ministerial Statement. joint committees) will immediately benefit from less burdensome audit requirements, reducing costs on I regret to inform the House that there was an reporting duties imposed by Whitehall and making it inaccuracy to the opening speeches made in each easier for authorities to be accountable to their community. House during the debates on the Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Regulations 2011. The debates took Council tax place in the Fourth Delegated Legislation Committee On 13 April, I published new figures showing who on Monday 28 March, column 4, and in the House of pays what for local government services. The new Lords Grand Committee on Tuesday 29 March 2011, analysis makes it possible to compare how much residents column GC 155: contribute in council tax and conversely how much WS 11 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 12 their area receives in formula grant. It marks another guidance on local priorities which spelt out exactly step towards demystifying the local government finance how councils should engage with the people in their system for taxpayers. area. Community celebrations Increasing housing supply With Easter, St George’s Day and the impending royal wedding, there are great opportunities for We believe that a key barrier to increasing the communities across the nation to come together and much needed housing supply is the lack of land and celebrate. Alongside my Cabinet colleagues and the buildings available for residential development or Prime Minster, we urged councils to adopt a common- conversion. Many towns and cities have office blocks, sense approach to street parties and to help local warehouse and business parks needlessly lying empty. residents from all backgrounds to come together, and By unshackling developers from a legacy of bureaucratic reinforce our shared identity and sense of Britishness. planning we can help them turn thousands of vacant This included publishing an updated version of the commercial properties into enough new homes to deregulatory guidance on organising street parties, jump-start housing supply and help get the economy shooting down myths and misconceptions around them. back on track In addition to this, the department flew the flag of On 8 April, my department published a consultation St George above its headquarters and I encouraged proposing to abolish the planning approval requirement public bodies to fly the English flag as a unifying for changing use from a commercial property to a symbol for the English nation, to be followed by flying residential property; deregulating the planning system the Union flag come the royal wedding. to increase housing supply. This is part of a wider Homes and tenants review of use classes orders and its interaction with Millions of social housing tenants take real pride in permitted development rights, which will further unlock their homes and my department believes they should unnecessary planning restrictions and help stimulate have the power and incentive to take control of the sustainable development. maintenance of their own homes. On 7 April the Neighbourhood planning Minister for Housing and Local Government launched tenant cashback. Tenant cashback will allow residents We believe that local people should have greater to take more control of their repairs budget for their power and support to shape planning and development homes, taking on their own repairs and keeping any in their local area. On 13 April, the Minister for cash savings they have made. Decentralisation announced that four organisations Tenants will also be able to pool their resources to with expertise in planning will share a £3.2 million create a community cashback account, which could be fund to provide assistance to local groups developing used to fund improvements to the local area for the neighbourhood plans. benefit of all its residents. The plan will give tenants more power over their homes and neighbourhoods; Communities can choose to take up free advice and allow poorer households to build up savings, strengthen guidance depending on their needs through the Prince’s bonds between neighbours; and provide work for small Foundation, Locality, the Royal Town Planning Institute, traders. and the National Association of Local Councils in partnership with the Campaign to Protect Rural England. Decentralisation Each organisation will use its expertise, skills and Ending the culture of topdown Whitehall management track record advising on development to empower and putting the focus on local accountability and local communities to reach the full potential of their communities is a key priority for the department. neighbourhood plan from start to finish. On 12 April, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of Planning and travellers State set out how local decision-making and restoring focus on local communities will be central to fire and On 13 April, I announced proposals for a more rescue service policy, as the department published its localist and fair way of providing traveller sites. New response to the Fire Futures reports. proposed planning policy will give the green belt and The voluntary and community sector are relied countryside more robust protection, give local councils upon by communities across the nation and we believe more discretion and local planning authorities a stronger they should be given the freedom from excessive burdens hand in supporting appropriate development. The and red tape that can impede their work. On 13 April, proposals will also remove the central guidance to I announced a new fair deal for the voluntary and councils on compulsory purchasing of land for traveller community sector which calls on councils to give sites. In consultation with local communities, councils greater support to local community and voluntary will have the freedom and responsibility to determine groups. The social responsibility deal will seek to the right level of traveller site provision in their area, avoid disproportionate reductions in funding and while ensuring fairness in the planning system. encourage a more collaborative approach involving councils working with organisations to shape the future The proposed planning policy is capable of being of their service. We are also giving councils the freedoms regarded as a material consideration in planning decisions. to serve the local community and work more flexibly I would encourage local councils, elected representatives with the sector by scrapping the 56 pages of statutory and community groups to respond to the consultation. WS 13 Written Statements[27 APRIL 2011] Written Statements WS 14

Department for Transport: Project are supported by a robust case for change that fits Appraisals with wider public policy objectives—the strategic case; Statement demonstrate value for money—the economic case; are commercially viable—the commercial case; Earl Attlee: My right honourable friend the Secretary are financially affordable—the financial case; and of State for Transport (Philip Hammond) has made are achievable—the management case. the following Ministerial Statement. This means that there will no longer be a separate I am announcing today reforms to the way decisions process called NATA. are made on which transport projects to prioritise. My Option development and presentation department’s business plan states we will “reform the My department will revise the formats used to way transport projects are assessed and funding present information to support decision-making so prioritisation decisions are made so that the benefits that all the five cases receive appropriate consideration of low carbon proposals are fully recognised.”It specifies from an early stage in a clear and transparent way. that in order to achieve this we will: Forthcoming changes to the guidance will set out to review and revise DfT guidance on appraising transport scheme promoters how to develop a range of innovative projects, and solutions to transport problems in the early stages of review and revise DfT processes for assessing schemes option development and a clear process for option and supporting ministerial decisions. selection that aligns with the subsequent appraisal The rest of this Statement explains how we have process. Today, I am also publishing the Early Assessment met these commitments. and Sifting Tool, which will aid scheme promoters in comparing and refining options in those early stages. DfT guidance on appraising transport projects The evidence supporting decisions needs to be robust. Updates and changes that I am making to my Questions for Written and Oral Answer: department’s guidance on appraising transport projects Costs will recognise the benefits of low carbon proposals Statement more accurately. Spending review decisions were informed by a value- The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord for-money measure, used across government. This measure Sassoon): My honourable friend the Economic Secretary incorporated the latest monetary values of carbon, to the Treasury (Justine Greening) has today issued published by the Department of Energy and Climate the following Written Ministerial Statement. Change, which are higher than previous values. It also treated indirect tax revenues (such as fuel duty) in a The Treasury has conducted its annual indexation way consistent with the Department for Transport’s exercise of the cost of Oral and Written Parliamentary in-draft benefit-cost ratio (BCR) formula. These changes Questions so as to ensure that these costs are increased tend to improve the BCRs of schemes that reduce in line with increases in underlying costs. The revised carbon emissions and weaken the BCRs of schemes costs, which will apply from today, are: that result in higher carbon emissions. Oral Questions—£437; and Stakeholder groups have made representations that Written Questions—£159. the department should consider amending the value of The disproportionate cost threshold (DCT) will time to reflect regional variations in earnings. We have remain at £800. considered these representations and have decided not to make any change at this stage, but we will keep the issue under review. UK Space Agency: Performance Targets Over the coming days, my officials will update the Statement appraisal guidance to incorporate the higher carbon values and new BCR formula that were used in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, spending review. In addition, the department will also Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness release further changes to the appraisal guidance that Wilcox): My right honourable friend the Minister of reflect Government’s priorities and recent updates State for Universities and Science (David Willetts) has to values and methodologies. A full list of these today made the following Statement. changes can be found on the department’s website (www.dft.gov.uk/webtag). I have tasked the UK Space Agency to provide policy support to Ministers on civil space issues and to DfT processes for assessing schemes and supporting lead a civil space programme which delivers maximum ministerial decisions economic, scientific, and policy benefits for the UK. Today, my department is publishing The Transport I have set the UK Space Agency the following Business Case which sets out the department’s approach targets for 2011-12: to producing business cases that support ministerial decisions. This approach ensures decisions are made improve performance of the agency programme by taking account of all the relevant information set over the period 2011-12 to 2014-15; out in five cases, consistent with the Treasury Green to ensure the ESA programme brings benefit to Book, specifically, to show whether schemes: UK industry, and the research base; WS 15 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 16

to initiate a national technology programme, jointly use of a scorecard technique across all programmes funded with industry as a means of accelerating the is being developed for use in 2011-12; development of the International Space Innovation Target 2—measured by the industrial return figures Centre; of ESA that reflect the work won by UK organisations undertake an impact assessment of the Outer Space against an ideal of return coefficient of 1; Act 1986 to develop reforms which will remove restrictions which put UK operators at a competitive Target 3—a report showing the placement of the disadvantage, and prepare proposals for new regulation first tranche of contracts to the value of £10 million for space vehicles to promote space tourism in the in 2011-12 on key technology activities in the national UK; technology roadmap will be produced; work with Ofcom to support international reform Target 4—a report showing how the changes produce at the world radio conference of the processes used a level playing field will be prepared; to gain access to orbit satellite slots to ensure that British industry has full and fair access to them; Target 5—agreement at the WRC conference in and February 2012 on the way forward; and promote wider international co-operation and have Target 6—clear guidance available to industry by a clear export support policy, including guidance December 2012. On co-operation a report on the on export controls and assistance for industry. status of implementation of agreements with other Target measurement techniques: agencies will be prepared. Target 1—efficiency gains in admin costs will be The corporate plan period referred to is the financial reflected in the budget profiles when agreed. The years 2011-12 to 2014-15. WA 117 Written Answers[27 APRIL 2011] Written Answers WA 118

opiates in licensed countries for 2011 will be sufficient Written Answers to cover medical demands during the year and increase stocks. Wednesday 27 April 2011 Additionally, the Afghan Government accept that they do not have the capacity to administer a licit cultivation scheme. There is a high chance that any Afghanistan licit cultivation of poppy would be diverted for illicit Question purposes. Furthermore, Afghan opium would not be economically competitive in the global market place. Asked by The Earl of Sandwich To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their contribution to the Afghanistan Reintegration Asylum Seekers Programme; and what assessment they have made Question of any procedure for vetting insurgents before Asked by Lord Hylton participation. [HL8600] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what European Union resources are available for the reception and The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth resettlement in Italy of Tunisians and other African Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We have contributed migrants reaching Lampedusa and elsewhere in £5 million to the Peace and Reintegration Fund, set up Italy. [HL8084] to support the Afghan Peace and Reintegration Programme (APRP). The APRP makes clear provision for the vetting of all candidates for reintegration. This The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth is led by Provincial Reintegration Committees and Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): For 2011 Italy has includes interviews, the collection of biometric data been provisionally allocated ¤7.7million from the and analysis of the results by Afghan Government European Refugee Fund. Priorities under this fund Ministries and the International Security Assistance include reception, integration, resettlement, co-operation Force. between member states and research. The European Asylum Support Office has the potential to support Italy through the deployment of Asylum Afghanistan: Opiate Poppy Production Support Teams made up of member state experts, as it Questions is already beginning to do in Greece. Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their Bahrain plans for eradication of opiate poppy production in Questions Afghanistan. [HL8277] Asked by Lord Patten To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth assessment of the political and human rights situation Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Opium poppy in Bahrain. [HL8294] eradication policy is owned and conducted by the Afghan Government, as set out in its National Drug Control Strategy. This strategy makes clear that it is The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth for the governors of the individual poppy-growing Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are pleased that provinces to carry out eradication. the immediate situation in Bahrain has calmed but urge the Government of Bahrain to focus on the need UK and coalition forces do not directly eradicate for a long-term political solution. All parties should opium poppy themselves, but assist the Afghan seek to create the conditions for the establishment of a Government by providing logistical support (ensuring national dialogue. the eradication teams can carry out their tasks) and targeting support (ensuring that eradication is only We are clear that the Government of Bahrain and aimed at those farmers who have access to genuine the security forces should respect the civil rights of alternatives to poppy). peaceful protestors, the right to freedom of expression and freedom of assembly and access to medical care Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer for all. We also expect the Bahraini authorities to treat detainees in accordance with the law and with To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the internationally accepted standards. coalition strategy in Afghanistan includes trials of legal opiate poppy production. [HL8278] We are concerned by reports from Amnesty International of harassment by Bahraini security forces. This is a time to build bridges between the different Lord Howell of Guildford: Neither the UK nor its religious communities in Bahrain. We urge the Bahraini coalition partners have plans to trial legal opiate poppy Government to show real leadership in promoting production in Afghanistan. This is because the tolerance and equal access to justice. This will be International Narcotics Control Board (INCB) report essential if meaningful and inclusive political dialogue of 2010 stated that the planned production of licit is to be possible. WA 119 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 120

Asked by Lord Patten top five priority countries and regions: China, Iran, the US, Belarus and the English-speaking Caribbean To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they region. We have also raised the death penalty in a have received reports of torture being used in interior number of our other priority countries, as outlined in ministry detention centres in Bahrain. [HL8295] our HMG Strategy for Abolition of the Death Penalty published in October 2010. Lord Howell of Guildford: The Government have The specific information requested about received reports that torture was used in Bahrain’s representations on reducing the numbers awaiting Ministry of Interior detention facilities from Amnesty the death penalty is not held centrally and could only International and the Human Rights Watch report be provided at disproportionate cost. However, Torture Redux. We also received a report that an Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) project individual, arrested on 16 March 2011 and currently work has contributed to a reduction in the numbers still in detention, may have been tortured. We are awaiting the death penalty. For example, in Uganda looking into this report. 167 death row inmates had their sentences reduced to The Government believe that torture is unacceptable life imprisonment as a result of project work funded under any circumstances. We regularly encourage the by the FCO in 2010. Government of Bahrain, at the highest level, to meet all its human rights obligations, demonstrate transparency and follow due process in the investigation of alleged offences committed against those who have been detained. The Government of Bahrain have assured us that Deputy Prime Minister’s Office there is zero tolerance for torture in Bahraini detention Questions facilities. Asked by Lord German It is vital now that the Bahrain Government take measures that create the conditions for the establishment To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much of a national dialogue that will lead to real reforms. the Deputy Prime Minister’s office cost between May 1997 and April 1998. [HL8362] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much Burma was spent on travel for the Deputy Prime Minister Question between May 1997 and April 1998. [HL8363] Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their was spent on security for the Deputy Prime Minister assessment of the new Government in Burma. between May 1997 and April 1998. [HL8364] [HL8404]

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The inauguration Department for Communities and Local Government of Burma’s new government, announced on 30 March (Baroness Hanham): In 1997-98 the Deputy Prime 2011, does not disguise the fact that the military Minister was also the Secretary of State for Environment, continue to dominate, with the vast majority of senior Transport and the Regions. The costs of his office positions taken up by military or ex-military personnel. were included within the running costs of DETR and National reconciliation in Burma cannot be achieved cannot be separately identified. while key stakeholders, particularly Aung San Suu Kyi and a number of ethnic groups, remain excluded from the political process and whilst over 2,000 political prisoners remain in jail. Diplomatic Missions: State Recognition Question Death Penalty Asked by Lord Laird Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Asked by Lord Hylton the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford To ask Her Majesty’s Government what on 2 February (WA 266) concerning the criteria for representations they have made to foreign governments recognition of a state, in what way the Vatican City about reducing the numbers awaiting the death meets the criteria in the area of human rights. penalty. [HL8447] [HL8410]

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): It is the longstanding The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth policy of the UK to oppose the death penalty in all Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Support for human circumstances as a matter of principle. We regularly rights is at the core of our foreign policy and will make representations to governments to abolish the remain so. However, human rights issues are not death penalty. Countries we have lobbied include our necessarily a criterion for recognition of a state. WA 121 Written Answers[27 APRIL 2011] Written Answers WA 122

Egypt Egypt’s referendum on constitutional amendments Questions which took place on 19 March 2011. It was an important part of the transition to a civilian-led democratic Asked by Lord Hylton Government which the Egyptian authorities have committed to undertake. It has fostered debate on an To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they important issue. The peaceful atmosphere and the will make representations to the Government of high turnout of the referendum demonstrated the Egypt to ensure that (a) suspects are treated humanely confidence the Egyptian people had in the integrity of and fairly, and (b) arrested persons are afforded the process. We continue to encourage the Egyptian legal advice when brought before the military tribunals Government to engage in meaningful dialogue with all or criminal courts. [HL8213] opposition and activist groups. We also welcome the further clarity on the transitional The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth process brought by the constitutional declaration of Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): It is a priority of 30 March 2011. However, we continue to encourage this Government to promote human rights in a pragmatic the Egyptian authorities to undertake wider constitutional and effective way, and we raise our concerns wherever reform in due course. and whenever it is appropriate to do so. We have continued to urge the Egyptian authorities to respect Asked by Lord Ahmed fully human rights and democratic freedoms, including To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions the rights of all detainees. During his visit to Egypt on they have had with the transitional Government in 21 February 2011, my right honourable friend the Egypt regarding the independence of the judiciary Prime Minister called on the Government to release and upholding of the rule of law. [HL8555] all political prisoners and end the state of emergency. We have raised our concerns with the authorities about the mistreatment of protesters, journalists and human rights defenders. We welcome the nationwide Lord Howell of Guildford: The Government support investigation launched by the Egyptian Public Prosecutors’ a democratic transition and political reform that meets Office into the killing and injury of protestors during the aspirations of the Egyptian people. We are discussing the recent demonstrations, and we have encouraged with the Egyptian authorities how we can support the the Egyptian authorities to ratify the Optional Protocol transition bilaterally, including assistance for constitutional on the Convention Against Torture and to extend an reform and to improve the administration of justice. invitation to the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture to We continue to engage with the Egyptian authorities visit the country. on human rights issues and on the importance of due Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark judicial process and the rule of law. We also support the EU offer of short-term transitional assistance, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what which could include legislative reform, institutional representations they have made to the Government capacity building and training in the justice sector. of Egypt to ensure women are fully involved in the Asked by Lord Ahmed discussions on the country’s future. [HL8349] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Lord Howell of Guildford: We want to see a genuinely representations they have made to the transitional inclusive, broad based political dialogue taking place Government in Egypt on the importance of free in Egypt, which includes women, as well as other and fair trials. [HL8556] presently underrepresented groups, in the reform process. Our embassy in Cairo raises the issue of women’s participation in discussions on the country’s future and its governance with the Egyptian authorities. Lord Howell of Guildford: During his visit to Egypt on 21 February 2011, my right honourable friend the We are assisting the transition in Egypt through a Prime Minister called on the Egyptian authorities to variety of programmes, including supporting the release all political prisoners and end the state of development of civil society, political parties and the emergency. Throughout the protests, we raised our electoral process, through technical advice and by concerns with the authorities about the mistreatment building links between organisations in Egypt and the of protesters, journalists and human rights defenders. UK. These will of course include references to the We welcome the nationwide investigation launched by experience of women in civil society and politics in the Egyptian Public Prosecutors’ Office into the killing both countries. and injury of protestors during the demonstrations. Asked by Baroness Tonge It is a priority of this Government to promote human rights. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment State, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my honourable they have made of the result of the Egyptian friend the member for North East Bedfordshire raised referendum on constitutional reform. [HL8547] a wide range of human rights issues during his visit to Egypt on 9-11 March 2011. We continue to urge the Lord Howell of Guildford: My honourable friend Egyptian authorities to fully respect human rights and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Alistair democratic freedoms, including the right of fair trial Burt, made a statement on 21 March 2011 welcoming for all suspects. WA 123 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 124

Asked by Lord Ahmed Lord Howell of Guildford: We welcome the visit to Egypt by a delegation of the Office of the UN High To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) which they have had with (a) the Government of Egypt, took place from 27 March 2011 to 4 April 2011. Our (b) the European Union, and (c) the United Nations embassy in Cairo met the delegation following their regarding the arrest, detention, restrictions on travel meetings with representatives from the Egyptian or freezing of assets of businessmen and politicians Government, judiciary and civil society to discuss the associated with the previous regime in Egypt occurring human rights situation in Egypt. We welcome the since the installation of the transitional government commitments expressed by government representatives in Egypt. [HL8557] to the OHCHR delegation to institutionalize respect for human rights, including through the ratification of several human rights treaties or their optional protocols, and through engagement with the independent UN Lord Howell of Guildford: The Egyptian authorities human rights experts. We support the UN initiative to have provided us, and other countries, with a list of establish a regional office for OHCHR in Cairo, to names in relation to freezing the assets of several advise on internal as well as regional human rights members of the former regime. UK and Egyptian issues. officials have discussed this. The Chancellor of the During the Universal Periodic Review on Egypt at Exchequer discussed asset freezing measures with the Human Rights Council in February 2010, we European Union finance ministers at the Economic raised a number of human rights concerns, including and Financial Affairs Council (ECOFIN) on 15 February the need to lift the state of emergency, and to amend 2011, in Brussels. On 21 March 2011 at the Foreign legislation in the areas of freedom of expression, Affairs Council the Secretary of State for Foreign association, assembly and religion to ensure full and Commonwealth Affairs, my right honourable friend compatibility with Egypt’s international obligations. the Member for Richmond (Yorks) and other EU We have not had recent contact with the African Ministers agreed to freeze the assets of a number of Union about the human rights situation in Egypt. individuals identified by the Egyptian authorities. The UK has taken prompt domestic action to implement the EU law and freeze identified assets. These measures entered into force on 22 March 2011 and remain in Equality place. There have been no discussions at the UN. Question Asked by Lord Ahmed Asked by Lord Ouseley To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the they have had with the European Union and other cross-ministerial group on equalities has discussed member states about the importance of the rule of the Government’s decision to re-draft and re-open law, human rights and due process as part of future consultation on the Public Sector Equality Duty trade and economic relations between Egypt and under the Equality Act 2010. [HL8444] the European Union. [HL8558]

Baroness Verma: The Inter-Ministerial Group on Equalities meets quarterly to review progress on equality Lord Howell of Guildford: The UK is closely engaged and implementation of the Government’s Equality with the EU about the situation in Egypt. We are Strategy, published on 2 December 2010. In order to working to secure an EU package of short-term enable a free exchange of views between Ministers, transitional support for Egypt, and await a formal details of discussion are not published. request for assistance from the Egyptian authorities to take this forward. This package includes potential assistance in the areas of human rights, good governance, justice and security sector reform. EU: Directives and Regulations More broadly, the UK and Germany have been Question leading calls for a transformation partnership with Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon the EU’s neighbours to the south. A key part of this is a reformed European Neighbourhood Policy which To ask Her Majesty’s Government which European offers strong incentives to reform, based on closer Union directives and regulations are currently extant. economic integration and improved market access, in [HL8428] return for concrete progress on economic and political reform. Asked by Lord Ahmed The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): This information is To ask Her Majesty’s Government what not held centrally and could only be provided at representations they have made to the United Nations disproportionate cost. The noble Lord may be interested and the African Union to ensure that due process, in the House of Commons Library publication: How human rights and the rule of law are respected in much legislation comes from Europe? (Research paper Egypt. [HL8559] 10/62). WA 125 Written Answers[27 APRIL 2011] Written Answers WA 126

EU: Law 20. C-332/02 COMMISSION v UK Article 226 EC; Directive 1999/ Question 130/EC: limitation of volatile organic compounds due to the use of organic solvents: failure of UK to adopt necessary measures. Asked by Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope 21. C-405/02 COMMISSION v UK Application under Article 226 EC Treaty seeking declaration that by failing to adopt laws, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what infraction regulations or administrative provision nec. to comply with Directive 99/42/EC or in any even by failing to communicate cases have been brought by the European Union them to the Commission, the UK has failed fully to fulfil its against the United Kingdom Government in the obligations under that Directive. past 10 years; and what was the total fine imposed 22. C-421/02 COMMISSION v UK Application under Article 226 EC seeking declaration concerning Article 4(2) of Directive in each case. [HL8514] 85/337 on assessment of the effects of certain public and private projects on the environment as amended by Directive 97/11 in relation to projects listed in Annex 11, para 1(b) and 1(c) of that Directive; implementation of that Directive. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth 23. C-423/02 COMMISSION v UK Application under Article 226 Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The EU has brought EC seeking a declaration against the UK concerning Directive 78 infraction cases against the UK in the past 10 years. 1999/31 on the landfill of waste; Directive not fully implemented: Regulations England & Wales re Articles 5.1 and 5.2; Regulations A list of these cases is attached. No fines have been Scotland to implement Directive; Legislative & secondary regulations imposed during this period. in NI to implement Directive; an Ordinance in Gibraltar to implement the Directive. 1. C-454/99 COMMISSION v UK Failure to comply with obligations 24. C-424/02 COMMISSION v UK Commission’s application under under Article 5(2) of Council Regulation (EEC) No 170/83 of Article 226 EC seeking a declaration against UK re Article 3(1) 25 January 1983 of Directive 75/439 re processing of waste oils by regeneration as amended by Directive 87/101 on waste oils. 2. C-35/00 COMMISSION v UK Directives 75/442, 91/689 and 94/62 concerning waste 25. C-431/02 COMMISSION v UK Application by Commission under Article 226 seeking declaration that UK has failed to 3. C-140/00 COMMISSION v UK Overfishing for the years 1991 adopt the necessary measurers to comply with Directive 91/689/EEC to 1996 on hazardous waste. 4. C-427/00 COMMISSION v UK Article 3 of Directive 76/160 - 26. C-458/02 COMMISSION v UK Application under Article 226 Quality of Bathing Waters EC Treaty re implementation of Article 8(2) of Directive 92/100 5. C-441/00 COMMISSION v UK Failure to comply with Council on rental right and lending right and on certain rights related to Directive 96/48/EC of 23 July 1996 copyright. 6. C-39/01 COMMISSION v UK Failure to comply with Council 27. C-61/03 COMMISSION v UK The UK’s alleged failure to Directive 96/61/EC of 24 September 1996 supply information under Article 37 of the Euratom Treaty in 7. C-85/01 COMMISSION v UK Commission’s application under respect of the decommissioning of the Jason reactor at Greenwich; Article 228 EC concerning a failure to comply with the judgment the application of this provision to radioactive waste coming of the Court of 14 July 1993 in case C56/90. from a military installation. 8. C-98/01 COMMISSION v UK Application under Article 226 28. C-62/03 COMMISSION v UK Applications under Article 226 EC seeking a declaration that the provisions setting a limitation for a declaration that the UK has failed to fulfil its obligations in voting shares in BAA PLC are incompatible with Articles 43 under Directive 75/442/EEC on waste as amended by Directive and 56 of the EC Treaty. 91/156/EEC. 9. C-373/01 COMMISSION v UK Infraction regarding non- 29. C-33/03 COMMISSION v UK Sixth VAT Directive; granting a implementation of Directive on batteries in NI and Gibraltar. right to deduct VAT on certain supplies of road fuel to non-taxable Case has been stayed pending C30/01. persons. 10. C-374/01 COMMISSION v UK Non-implementation case on 30. C-277/03 COMMISSION v UK Failure to implement Directive Directive re biocidal products. Now implemented. Await to hear 2000/53/EC (end of life vehicles) that Commission will withdraw. Extension granted to 11 March 31. C-305/03 COMMISSION v UK 2002. Case stayed pending C30/01. 32. C-349/03 COMMISSION v UK ’s failure to implement in 11. C-434/01 COMMISSION v UK Gibraltar Council Directive 77/799/EEC concerning mutual 12. C-489/01 COMMISSION v UK Failure to implement Directive assistance by the competent authorities of the Member States in 97/9 on investor-compensation schemes the field of direct and indirect taxation. 13. C-52/02 COMMISSION v UK Article 226 EC seeking a declaration 33. C-483/03 COMMISSION v UK Non-implementation of Council that the UK has failed to comply with Directive 2000/71 relating Directive 2001/12/EC, 2001/13/EC and 2001/14/EC on the to technical progress. Case stayed pending judgment in C30/01. development of the Community’s railways and licensing of railway undertakings and levying of charges 14. C-62/02 COMMISSION v UK Failure to comply with Directive 1999/94 relating to the availability of consumer information on 34. C-508/03 COMMISSION v UK Council Directive 85/337/EEC fuel economy and CO2 emissions in respect of the marketing of on the assessment of the effects of certain public and private new passenger cars or, in any event by failing to notify such projects on the environment. provisions to the Commission. 35. C-6/04 COMMISSION v UK Council Directive 92/43/EC on 15. C-210/02 COMMISSION v UK Council Directive 97/43/Euratom; the conservation of natural habitats and of wild fauna and flora ionizing radiation; repeal of Directive 84/466/Euratom 36. C-64/04 COMMISSION v UK Alleged failure to withdraw the 16. C-218/02 COMMISSION v UK Failure to comply with Council fishing licenses of the CLEOPATRA and OCEAN QUEST Directive 96/29/Euratom; ionizing radiation following their transfer to Argentina. The licences were allegedly sold, thus violating Article 5 of Regulation EC (3690/93 of 20 17. C-305/02 COMMISSION v UK Failing to fulfil obligations December 1993) under Directive 2000/21/EC by failing to adopt all the laws, regulations or administrative provisions necessary to comply 37. C-65/04 COMMISSION v UK Article 5(3) of Council Directive with Directive. Stayed pending determination of C30/01. 89/618/Euratom on informing the general public about health protection measures to be applied and steps to be taken in the 18. C-310/02 COMMISSION v UK Failing to comply in Gibraltar event of a radiological emergency with Directive 1998/98 relating to classification, packaging and labelling of dangerous substances; failing to notify such provisions 38. C-88/04 COMMISSION v UK Directive 2001/29/EC on the to the Commission thereby failing fully to fulfil obligations harmonisation of certain aspects of copyright and related rights under Article 2 of the Directive N: it appears that Directive has in the information society not been implemented in Gibraltar as it is based on Article 95 39. C-98/04 COMMISSION v UK Failure to ensure the correct EC. application of obligations under Articles 2(1) and 4 of the EIA 19. C-331/02 COMMISSION v UK Directive 1999/30/EC relating Directive (Council Directive 85/337/EEC on the assessment of to the limit values for sulphur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide, oxides the effects off certain public and private projects on the environment) of nitrogen, particulate matter and lead in ambient air: application 40. C-164/04 COMMISSION v UK Non-implementation of Directive by Commission under Article 226 EC seeking declaration that 2001/17/EC of 19 March 2001 (concerning the reorganisation UK has failed in Gibraltar to adopt measures to comply with and winding-up of insurance undertakings) in relation to Lloyd’s that Directive (TM) or Gibraltar WA 127 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 128

41. C-199/04 COMMISSION v UK Alleged failure to take all the 58. C-390/07 COMMISSION v UK (URBAN WATER WASTE) necessary measures to implement Articles 2-6 and 8-9 inclusive An infraction against the United Kingdom for failure to implement of Council Directive 1985/337/EC of 27 June 1985 on the Council Directive 91/271 concerning urban waste water treatment. assessment of the effects of certain public and private projects on the environment, as amended by Council Directive 97/11/EC 59. C-122/08 COMMISSION v UK An action under Article 226 of 3 March 1997. EC for failure to implement Directive 2004/38 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and 42. C-385/04 COMMISSION v UK The alleged failure of the UK reside freely within the territory of the Member States, in to implement Directive 2001/16/EC in the UK, concerning the relation to Gibraltar. interoperability of the trans-European conventional rail system 43. C-455/04 COMMISSION v UK Alleged failure of the UK to 60. C-186/09 COMMISSION v UK An application by the Commission implement Council Directive 2001/55/EC concerning minimum for a declaration that by failing to adopt or notify the measures standards for giving temporary protection in the event of a mass necessary to comply with Directive 2004/113/EC (implementing influx of displaced persons and measures promoting a balance the principle of equal treatment between men and women in the between Member States in receiving those persons and bearing access to and supply of goods and services), the United Kingdom the resulting consequences. failed to fulfil its obligations under the Directive. The action relates to non-implementation in Gibraltar. 44. C-484/04 COMMISSION v UK The United Kingdom’s alleged failure to comply with the Working Time Directive 93/10/EC of 61. C-187/09 COMMISSION v UK An application for a declaration 23 November 1993 in respect of: (i) the application of the that by failing to adopt or notify measures necessary to comply derogation under Article 17(1) to workers whose working time is with Directive 2006/40/EC relating to emissions from air-conditioning partially not measured or predetermined or can be determined systems in motor vehicles, the UK has failed to fulfil its obligations by the worker himself; and (ii) in failing to adopt adequate under the Directive. measures for the implementation of the rights to daily and weekly rest. 62. C-256/08 COMMISSION v UK The alleged failure of the UK 45. C-505/04 COMMISSION v UK Failure to implement in Gibraltar to implement Council Directive 2004/83/EC (on minimum standards Directive 2001/19/EC amending directives on recognition of for the qualification and status of third-country nationals or professional qualifications concerning nurses, dentists, veterinary stateless persons as refugees or as persons who otherwise need surgeons, midwives, architects, pharmacists and doctors. international protection and the content of the protection granted). 46. C-37/05 COMMISSION v UK Alleged failure by the UK and 63. C-284/08 COMMISSION v UK Infraction proceedings against Northern Ireland to correctly implement the requirements of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland for Articles 2(1) and 4 of the Council Directive 85/337/EEC on the failing to implement the ’Unfair Commercial Practices Directive’ assessment of certain public and private projects on the environment (Directive 2005/29/EC on unfair business-to-consumer commercial as amended by Council Directive 97/11/EC. practices in the internal market, and amending Directives 97/7/EC, 47. C-126/05 COMMISSION v UK An alleged failure by the UK to 98/27/EC and 2002/65/EC and Regulation EC No 2006/2004). implement Directive 2000/34/EC of 22 June 2000 amending The Commission alleges that it has not received further information Directive 93/104/EC concerning certain aspects of the organisation from the UK in connection with the transposition of the Directive of working time to cover sectors and activities excluded from in the territory of Gibraltar, so it has no evidence to show the that Directive. measures necessary for the transposition have been finally taken. 48. C-127/05 COMMISSION v UK (SFAIRP) Infraction proceedings 64. C-312/08 COMMISSION v UK The United Kingdom’s alleged against the UK concerning the incorrect implementation of failure to implement Directive 2006/100/EC adapting certain Council Directive 89/391 on the introduction of measures to Directives in the field of free movement of persons by reason of encourage improvements in the health and safety of workers at the accession of Bulgaria and Romania. The Commission submit work. that the United Kingdom provide information about various 49. C-131/05 COMMISSION v UK The Wild Birds Directive (79/ measures adopted for the transposition of the Directive, however, 409/EEC). not all measures with regard to Gibraltar had been taken. 50. C-236/05 COMMISSION v UK The persistent late transmission 65. C-346/08 COMMISSION v UK An alleged failure by the United by the UK of certain data required under legislation governing Kingdom to ensure compliance with Directive 2001/80/EC on fisheries, namely Article 19i, first and third indents, of Council the limitation of emissions of certain pollutants into the air Regulation 2847/93. from large combustion plants in relation to Alcan’s power plant 51. C-323/05 COMMISSION v UK The alleged failure by the UK and aluminium production site in Lynemouth. to implement Directive 2001/95/EC on general product safety. 66. C-367/08 COMMISSION v UK An application to declare that 52. C-405/05 COMMISSION v UK An application by the Commission by failing to transpose and/or notify the transposition in the that the UK has failed to fulfil its obligations under Article 4(1) territory of Gibraltar of Directive 2006/22/EC on minimum and (3) of Council Directive 91/271/EEC concerning waste conditions for the implementation of Regulations 3820/85/EEC water treatment by failing to ensure that adequate treatment is and 3821/85/EEC concerning social legislation relating to road provided for urban waste waters from various agglomerations in transport activities, the United Kingdom has failed to fulfil its the UK and Northern Ireland. obligations under the Treaty. 53. C-138/06 COMMISSION v UK The alleged failure of the UK 67. C-417/08 COMMISSION v UK An application to declare that to implement Directive 2002/49/EC relating to the assessment the UK has failed to transpose Directive 2004/35/EC on and management of environmental noise. environmental liability with regard to the prevention and remedying 54. C-139/06 COMMISSION v UK An alleged failure to implement of environmental damage. Directives 2002/96/EC and 2003/108/EC on Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment. 68. C-457/08 COMMISSION v UK An application to declare that the United Kingdom has failed to transpose Directive 2005/14/EC 55. C-155/06 COMMISSION v UK An alleged failure of the UK to relating to insurance against civil liability in respect of the use of properly implement Article 53 of Council Directive 96/29/Euratom, motor vehicles within the territory of Gibraltar laying down basic safety standards for the protection of the health of workers and the general public against the dangers 69. C-495/08 COMMISSION v UK An application to declare that arising from ionizing radiation, because of the lack of provisions the United Kingdom has failed to fulfil its obligations under allowing for appropriate intervention in all situations of lasting Directive 85/337/EEC exposure to ionizing radiation resulting from the after effects of a radiological emergency or a past practice. 70. C-527/08 COMMISSION v UK An Application to declare that 56. C-247/07 COMMISSION v UK An application pursuant to by failing to transpose Directive 2005/65/EC on enhancing port Article 226 TEC against the UK for failing to implement security or in any event by failing to notify transposing provisions Directive 2003/35/EC (providing for public participation in respect to the Commission, the United Kingdom has failed to fulfil its of the drawing up of certain plans and programmes relating to obligations under Article 18 of that Directive. the environment). The Commission argues that the UK has not informed the Commission of all the provisions it has adopted 71. C-556/08 COMMISSION v UK The alleged failure on the part and brought into force to comply with the Directive and therefore of the United Kingdom to implement Directive 2005/36/EC on concludes that the UK has not adopted all the provisions the recognition of professional qualifications in respect of Gibraltar necessary to implement the Directive. or, in any event, to notify the Commission of implementation. 57. C-367/06 COMMISSION v UK Failure to implement Directive 72. C-557/08 COMMISSION v UK An application to declare that 2003/41/EC (on the activities and supervision of institutions for the United Kingdom has failed to transpose Directive 2005/35/EC occupational retirement provision). on ship source pollution. WA 129 Written Answers[27 APRIL 2011] Written Answers WA 130

determinative of the origin of the principle of 73. C-582/08 COMMISSION v UK An application for a declaration that by denying recovery of input tax in respect of certain parliamentary sovereignty. The evidence submitted to transactions carried out by taxable persons not established in the European Scrutiny Committee from a variety of the territory of the EC, the United Kingdom has failed to comply with its obligations under Articles 169, 170 and 171 of distinguished constitutional academics demonstrated Council Directive 2006/112/EC on the common system of value that the origin of the principle of parliamentary added tax and with Article 2(1) of the Thirteenth VAT Directive sovereignty is subject to debate, and is an issue on 86/560/EEC on the harmonisation of the laws of the member states relating to turnover taxes. which opinion remains divided. 74. C-259/09 COMMISSION v UK The management of waste from extractive industries. Infringement proceedings have been brought against the UK for non-implementation of Directive 2006/21/EC or, in the alternative, for failure to notify the Commission Falkland Islands: Minefields of the provisions it has adopted to comply with the Directive. The Directive provides for measures, procedures and guidance Question to prevent or reduce any adverse effects on the environment and human health brought about as a result of the management of Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark waste from the extractive industries. Mining Waste. 75. C-394/09 COMMISSION v UK An application by the Commission To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to under Article 226 EC for a declaration that the UK has failed to the Written Answer by Baroness Verma on 4 April fulfil its obligations under Directive 2005/33/EC (as regards the sulphur content of marine fuels) by failing to implement the (WA 332–3), what is their estimate of the number of Directive or failing to notify the Commission of implementation. landmines still to be cleared in the Falkland ″ ″ The UK decided to implement the land-based aspects separately Islands. [HL8519] from the ″marine-based″ aspects. The Commission’s case is that neither the land-based aspects nor the marine-based aspects have been implemented in respect of Gibraltar and in addition that the marine-based aspects have not been implemented in The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth respect of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We estimate there 76. C-545/09 COMMISSION v UK An application for a declaration that article 12(4)(a) of the Convention defining the Statute of to be over 15,600 landmines (12,300 anti-personnel the European Schools means that teachers seconded by a member and 3,300 anti-vehicle) remaining on the Falkland state have access to the same progression in status and pay as Islands following the 1982 conflict. those enjoyed by teachers employed in that member state. 77. C-301/10 COMMISSION v UK An application to declare that All mined areas are fenced and clearly marked and by failing to ensure that appropriate collecting systems pursuant pose no humanitarian danger or hamper economic to Articles 3(1) and (2) and Annex 1(A) to Directive 91/271//EEC concerning urban waste water treatment are in place in Whitburn development. In addition, community education on and the Beckton and Crossness collecting systems in London the threat of landmines and unexploded ordnance is 78. C-86/11 COMMISSION v UK Commission’s Application relating in place. to this case which seeks a declaration that, by permitting non-taxable persons to be members of a VAT group (i.e. a single taxable person for VAT purposes) pursuant to sections 43(1) and 43A (as amended) of VATA 1994, the UK has failed to comply with its obligations under Articles 9 and 11 of the Principal VAT Government Departments: Staff Directive. The Application follows a formal letter from the Questions Commission of 18 September 2008, and a Reasoned Opinion of 20 November 2009. Asked by Lord Beecham To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many European Union Bill [HL] staff employed in Government Offices for the Regions Question at the date of the announcement of the abolition of the offices have been or will be made redundant; Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill and what are the total costs of redundancy or severance payments. [HL8249] To ask Her Majesty’s Government , further to the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 24 January (WA 117), why they changed the explanatory notes The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, for Clause 18 of the European Union Bill by removing Department for Communities and Local Government the reference to the common law recognition of the (Baroness Hanham): To date no staff in the former principle of parliamentary sovereignty. [HL8361] Government Offices for the Regions have been made compulsorily redundant. A total of 436 redundancy The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth notices have been issued, with a notice period up to Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Clause 18 of the the end of September 2011 in the majority of cases. It EU Bill is not intended to express any view on the is anticipated that over 200 of those staff who have origin of the principle of parliamentary sovereignty been served with compulsory notices will leave either but is concerned with reaffirming the basis upon which on a voluntary basis or be confirmed in other posts. directly effective and applicable EU law is given effect Efforts to redeploy the remaining staff will continue within the UK domestic legal order. The Government throughout the notice period. amended the Explanatory Notes to Clause 18 of the In July last year the Department for Communities EU Bill ahead of the Bill’s First Reading in the House and Local Government announced the closure of the of Lords to remove the references to common law eight Government Offices for the Regions across England. principle. This was in response to concerns raised in The measures are central to the Government’s wider the other place, both during the course of the consideration aims of transferring power from central government of the EU Bill and most notably by the European to councils and communities and the closure is expected Scrutiny Committee in its inquiry report on Clause 18, to deliver savings of up to £200 million over the that such references might be considered to be spending review period. These savings are net of estimated WA 131 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 132 projected cost of voluntary redundancy payments is Lord Howell of Guildford: The President of the £32.18 million and that for compulsory redundancies Republic of Ireland has not officially visited the United is £10.3 million. Kingdom in the last five years. Asked by Lord Beecham Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much have established, or will introduce, cross-departmental each visit by the President of the Republic of Ireland teams based in regions to inform departments of to the United Kingdom in the past five years has the impact of Government policies; and, if so, how cost. [HL8357] many members of staff will be based in each region. [HL8252] Lord Howell of Guildford: The President of the Republic of Ireland has visited the UK a total of Baroness Hanham: The abolition of the Government 16 times over the past five years. All of these have been Offices for the Regions is part of the coalition either private or working visits and none was as a Government’s decentralisation of powers down to guest of Her Majesty’s Government. Therefore no local councils and local communities. Their closure is programme or organisational costs have fallen to the expected to deliver savings of up to £200 million over Government. As with many other heads of state, the spending review period. President McAleese receives police protection when in In closing the Government Offices for the Regions this country. For security reasons we do not comment we have been clear that formal arrangements of this on the costs of individual protection operations. sort at a regional level are unnecessary and do nothing to support the empowerment of localities and Asked by Lord Laird communities. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the President of the United States will be visiting Northern Gulf War Illnesses Ireland when he visits the Republic of Ireland in Question May. [HL8409] Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester Lord Howell of Guildford: Details of President Obama’s To ask Her Majesty’s Government , further to visit to Ireland have not been publicly disclosed. The the Written Statement by Lord Astor of Hever on arrangements for that visit are a matter for the Irish 31 March (WS 113), how many service men and and US Governments. In connection with President women lost a limb or limbs, or were left with Obama’s state visit to the United Kingdom from 24 to another long-term illness or disability, arising from 26 May 2011, we have had no discussions with the US service in the first Gulf War. [HL8412] Government about a visit to Northern Ireland. Asked by Lord Laird The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): Information on To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the injuries sustained in the first Gulf War is not centrally protocol for the visit of the President of the United compiled. States to the United Kingdom is the same as for all heads of state. [HL8411] Heads of State: Official Visits Questions Lord Howell of Guildford: The President of the United States has been offered the same protocol Asked by Lord Laird arrangements available to all heads of state visiting the United Kingdom on a state visit. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether state visits to the United Kingdom by the President of the Republic of Ireland always begin in London. [HL8355] Iraq: Camp Al Waled Question The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Asked by Baroness Tonge Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): A state visit to the United Kingdom by the President of the Republic of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Ireland does not necessarily always begin in London. representations they have made to the Government State visits can begin in a number of locations; for of Iraq about the condition of 1,300 Palestinian instance, the Pope’s recent visit to the United Kingdom refugees being held in camp Al Waled. [HL8436] began in Edinburgh. Asked by Lord Laird The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The UK Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the have not made specific representations to the Government President of the Republic of Ireland has officially of Iraq about the conditions of the Palestinian residents visited the United Kingdom in each of the last five in Camp Al Waled. However, on 5 April 2011 embassy years. [HL8356] officials discussed the situation with the International WA 133 Written Answers[27 APRIL 2011] Written Answers WA 134

Committee of the Red Cross. We understand that Israel and Palestine many residents are leaving for resettlement in third Question countries and only around 600 remain. Our embassy officials in Baghdad regularly discuss Asked by Lord Touhig human rights issues with senior members of the Iraqi To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Government, and raise concerns when appropriate. they have made of the impact of the revolution in Egypt on the Israel–Palestine conflict. [HL8370]

Isles of Scilly The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Questions Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Egypt has played an important role in the Middle East peace process Asked by Lord Berkeley and its peace agreement with Israel is vital to regional stability.We welcome commitments made by the Supreme To ask Her Majesty’s Government what new Council of the Armed Forces and interim Government evidence and information became available between in Egypt that Egypt will abide by its international and December 2010 when ministers reconfirmed regional treaty obligations, including the peace treaty conditional approval for the proposed Isles of Scilly with Israel. We believe that recent events across the Sea Link and 31 March 2011 which caused ministers Middle East have heightened the urgency of making to withdraw support from the scheme. [HL8560] progress on the Middle East peace process, and continue to urge all parties concerned to return to negotiations based on clear parameters as soon as possible. Earl Attlee: The Isles of Scilly Link scheme was granted conditional approval in 2007. There was no Asked by Baroness Tonge subsequent reconfirmation of conditional approval To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions nor any funding decision on the scheme until the they have had with the Government of Israel on the decision on 31 March 2011 not to provide funding for operational freedom of local and international non- the scheme proposed by Cornwall Council. governmental organisations in the Palestinian Asked by Lord Berkeley Territories and Israel. [HL8544] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, when they provided funding for the present “Scillonian” Lord Howell of Guildford: On 21 February the ferry, they required the operator to set up a sinking Knesset passed a transparency law requiring greater fund to provide for a replacement ferry; and, if so, disclosure by non-governmental organisations (NGOs) what is the current value of the fund; and what funded by foreign Governments. The law requires that expenditure, if any, has been authorised. [HL8561] such NGOs must submit and publish quarterly returns of such funding. The initial draft of the law included significant Earl Attlee: I regret that the Department for Transport restrictions upon the ability of NGOs to accept support no longer holds any information on the details of any from Government. These points have been removed Government support for the construction of the from the final version. “Scillonian III” in the 1970s. Our embassy in Tel Aviv and our consulate general We have found no evidence that there was any in Jerusalem have had contacts with a number of requirement for the establishment of a sinking fund. non-governmental organisations on these issues. We understand that the new law is likely to have limited impact upon their organisations. Israel Question Israel and Palestine: West Bank Question Asked by Baroness Tonge Asked by Baroness Tonge To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the passage of the Nakba Bill To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment through the Israeli Knesset, and the impact of this they have made of the recent increase in settler upon freedom of speech. [HL8543] violence in the West Bank as documented by the Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs; and what discussions they have had with the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Government of Israel to prevent such violence. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We attach great [HL8545] importance to the civil liberties laid down in Israel’s founding documents, including freedom of speech. As The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth stated in our recent Human Rights Command Paper, Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are following we remain concerned by a growing climate of intolerance closely the recent increase in settler violence in the in Israel, which is exacerbated by Knesset bills like the West Bank. It is important that the Israeli Government Naqba Bill referred to in the question. meet their obligations as an occupying power to ensure WA 135 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 136 the safety of Palestinian civilians and to deal transparently, Lebanon impartially and effectively with criminal acts carried Question out by extreme members of the settler movement. Asked by Lord Turnberg The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the right honourable Member for Richmond To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment (Yorks) (Mr Hague) also condemned the recent murder they have made of reports that Hezbollah have of a family in Itamar. It was an act of incomprehensible sited bunkers for launching missiles adjacent to cruelty and brutality and we hope the perpetrator is hospitals and schools south of the Litani river in brought to justice swiftly. Lebanon. [HL8373] All those who support a secure future for Israel and a future Palestinian state should be working urgently The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth to restart peace negotiations, not taking steps which Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): International make this more difficult. investigations carried out after the 2006 Lebanon Israel war found that Hezbollah often stored and fired weaponry from civilian buildings. There is no reason to believe Ivory Coast that Hezbollah would reconsider operating from civilian Question buildings in any future conflict with Israel. Reports suggest extensive preparations for Hezbollah to fight Asked by Baroness Tonge in built-up areas south of the Litani. UN Security Council Resolution (SCR) 1701 calls To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment for a full ceasefire, including no weapons south of the they have made of the reported killing of 800 people Litani River. We remain concerned by reports of weapons in Duekoue, Ivory Coast, and the alleged involvement transfers to Hezbollah, including Hezbollah’s own of the new forces loyal to Alassane Ouattara. claims that it possesses significant military capabilities. [HL8548] During his visit to Syria in January, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth right honourable friend the Member for Richmond Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government (Yorks) (Mr Hague) made clear and firm representations are deeply concerned by the horrific reports of killings to President Assad and Foreign Minister Muallem on in the town of Duekoue in western Ivory Coast. We the dangers to the stability of the region in allowing fully support the swift investigation into all allegations the smuggling of weapons to Hezbollah. My officials of human rights abuses during this crisis by an continue to raise UN SCR 1701 at a senior level in international Commission of Inquiry mandated by both Beirut and Damascus. the UN Human Rights Council. Baroness Amos, the UN Under-Secretary General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief, visited Duekoue on 5 April and Libya we are seeking an urgent update from the UN on her Questions findings. It is vital that allegations of human rights Asked by Lord Hylton abuses, by all sides, are urgently and thoroughly investigated. There must be no impunity—those found To ask Her Majesty’s Government what possibilities accountable should face justice. they have explored for mediation between the regime in Tripoli and the leaders of the uprising in Libya. [HL8085] Kenya Question The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We have encouraged Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark the Gaddafi regime to seek a resolution of the crisis through a process of dialogue with opposition forces, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assistance necessary democratic reform and respect for the relevant they have given to the Government of Kenya following UN Security Council Resolutions. Several interlocutors, the fire in Deep Sea settlement in Nairobi. [HL8402] such as UN Special Envoy for Libya Abdel Elah Al Khatib, are in touch with both sides. But for mediation The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth to play a meaningful role, both sides would have to be Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We were obviously prepared to accept it: there are currently no indications saddened to hear of this fire in one of Nairobi’s of this. informal settlements a few weeks ago. We would not Asked by Viscount Waverley have been able to provide any direct assistance, even if we had been asked, as our bilateral focus in Kenya is To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether there on other issues, such as education, malaria, maternal are active al-Qaeda cells in Libya; and, if so, what mortality and hunger. We would have directed any are their plans for dealing with them. [HL8119] request instead to the United Nations Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs emergency Lord Howell of Guildford: The current extent of response fund, to which the Department for International al-Qaeda activity in Libya is unclear. However, we Development is a leading contributor. have no substantive evidence of involvement in the WA 137 Written Answers[27 APRIL 2011] Written Answers WA 138

Libyan internal opposition movement of individuals Lord Howell of Guildford: As agreed at the London with an al-Qaeda background. We have been clear that conference on Libya, the post-conflict stabilisation it is essential that the Libyan opposition ensure that and peace-building effort in Libya will be an international they are not infiltrated by al-Qaeda. It is clear from effort, co-ordinated by the UN in support of the our engagement with the Interim National Council Libyan people. The UK has undertaken early cross- that they are sincere in their wish for an inclusive, Whitehall planning, facilitated by the Stabilisation democratic Libya which rejects extremism, as shown Unit, focusing on how the UK could support this by their manifesto and public statements rejecting international effort, in a post-conflict environment. extremist ideas, and committing to combating them in Staff have been deployed to the region to provide all circumstances and implementing UN Security Council stabilisation expertise both on Libya and Arab partnership Resolutions on counter-terrorism. programmes. The Unit’s Civilian Stabilisation Group stands ready to deploy members of its over 1,000-strong Asked by Lord Chidgey civilian reserve to assist in areas such as planning, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what has stabilisation and governance where requested. been the role of the cross-department stabilisation Asked by Lord Chidgey unit since the commencement of the no-fly zone over Libya; what plans are being made for To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they are reconstruction; and how this work is incorporated integrating planning between government departments into cross-department decision-making between the on the Libya crisis; and which departments are Department for International Development, the involved. [HL8328] Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Ministry of Defence. [HL8132] Lord Howell of Guildford: Government inter- departmental planning on the Libya crisis is co-ordinated Lord Howell of Guildford: The Stabilisation Unit by the National Security Council sub-committee on has played an active role in the UK Government’s Libya, under the chairmanship of my right honourable response to the Libya crisis from an early stage, in friend the Prime Minister. It is attended by my right facilitating cross-Whitehall planning, providing advice honourable friends the Deputy Prime Minister, the on stabilisation, and resourcing the UK response with Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth experts from the Civilian Stabilisation Group. The Affairs, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Secretary planning papers prepared are tri-departmental, informed of State for Defence, the Secretary of State for Energy by and prepared for officials, and sometimes Ministers, and Climate Change, the Secretary of State for from the Department for International Development, International Development and the Attorney General. the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Ministry Senior Officials, including the National Security Adviser, of Defence. The unit has made preparations to deploy the Cabinet Secretary, the Chief of Defence Staff, the experts to Libya with the United Nations mission, Chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee and the who will be leading on reconstruction and the wider Intelligence Agency Heads, also routinely attend. Daily stabilisation response, if and when appropriate. official level meetings also take place in the Cabinet Office briefing rooms (COBR) to monitor developments Asked by Lord Chidgey and co-ordinate follow-up work. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions The main, but by no means the only, departments they have had with the United Nations and the dealing with aspects of the Libya issue include the European Union about stabilisation within Libya Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Ministry of and the wider region. [HL8133] Defence, HM Treasury and the Department for International Development. The tri-departmental Stabilisation Unit has played an active role in facilitating cross-Whitehall planning discussions, providing expert Lord Howell of Guildford: Planning for international advice on stabilisation and preparing cross-department support for stabilisation in Libya and the wider region planning papers for the National Security Council. has been an important aspect of the UK’s discussions with the United Nations and the European Union. Asked by Lord Chidgey The Stabilisation Unit has had discussions with a number of United Nations agencies regarding stabilisation To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they within Libya, including the Office of the Secretary intend to deploy a Stabilisation Response Team to General. The Government’s Stabilisation Unit provided Libya, in the form envisaged in the 2010 Strategic advice to officials and the Secretary of State for Defence and Security Review. [HL8329] International Development in advance of the London conference on Libya on 29 March, which was attended by United Nations and European Union representatives. Lord Howell of Guildford: The Government are Asked by Lord Chidgey currently exploring a range of options to support an international stabilisation response to the Libya crisis. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans The option of deploying a Stabilisation Response they have to ensure that the United Kingdom is Team in the form envisaged in the 2010 Strategic able to contribute significantly to post-conflict Defence and Security Review is one of many options stabilisation operations in Libya. [HL8327] under consideration. WA 139 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 140

Asked by Lord Chidgey However the situation in Misratah remains grave. The priority is for humanitarian organisations to have To ask Her Majesty’s Government what safe access to all war-affected areas, and medical personnel representations they have made to the United Nations and ambulances need to be allowed to reach the and the African Union to co-ordinate humanitarian wounded. and stabilisation action in Libya. [HL8331] The UK is working with the international community to ensure international humanitarian agencies are provided with unfettered access into Libya to help prevent a Lord Howell of Guildford: The Government continue humanitarian crisis from developing and to ensure the to discuss stabilisation activity and planning for Libya protection of civilians. We are co-ordinating with other with a number of international partners, including Governments to lobby for access, including joint efforts multilateral organisations. Discussions across government with the EU. The International Development Secretary have been taking place with international organisations has also met with the African Union to press for better to ensure a co-ordinated approach to planning for access. We are also in close contact with the UN stabilisation activity in Libya. humanitarian co-ordinator for Libya, Rashid Kalikov, Asked by Lord Chidgey who has been lobbying both the authorities in Tripoli and the opposition forces. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what evidence they have of the presence of al-Qaeda fighters Asked by Lord Hylton operating alongside rebel militia in Libya; and what To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action assessment they have made of the impact of such they and others are taking to establish full inquiries evidence on the security of possible arrangements into the fate of persons who have disappeared or to provide arms to the forces opposing Muammar gone missing in Libya, in particular Ms Iman Gaddafi’s troops. [HL8332] al-Obeidi. [HL8449]

Lord Howell of Guildford: The current extent of al-Qaeda activity in Libya is unclear. However, we Lord Howell of Guildford: We remain concerned by have no substantive evidence of involvement in the widespread reports of arrests and enforced disappearances Libyan internal opposition movement of individuals of those who have spoken out against the Gaddafi with an al-Qaeda background. We have been clear that regime in Libya. Enforced disappearance of persons it is important that the Libyan opposition make sure when committed as part of a widespread or systematic that they are not infiltrated by al-Qaeda. They are very attack directed against any civilian population is a conscious of this. It is clear from our engagement with crime against humanity under the Rome Statute. A the Interim National Council that that they are sincere UK-instigated UN Security Council Resolution (1970) in their wish for an inclusive, democratic Libya which asked the International Criminal Court (ICC) Prosecutor rejects extremism, as shown by their manifesto and to investigate whether crimes against humanity had public statements rejecting extremist ideas, and committing been committed in Libya. These investigations began to combating them in all circumstances and implementing on 3 March 2011. The UK also led a call for a special UN Security Council Resolutions on counter-terrorism. session of the Human Rights Council, which convened But we continue to monitor this situation closely. HM on 25 February 2011, and a resulting resolution which Government are not providing arms for the Libyan set up an independent commission of inquiry to establish Opposition. the facts about violations of human rights and to Asked by Lord Hylton make recommendations, including on holding those responsible to account. We continue to press for full To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action and immediate access to Libya for International Criminal they will take to ensure that medical supplies and Court investigators and the Human Rights Council’s equipment and personnel are allowed to be unloaded Commission of Inquiry.We call on the Libyan authorities at Misratah in Libya. [HL8445] to comply with international human rights and humanitarian law and for those being detained illegally to be released immediately. Lord Howell of Guildford: The Department for We are aware of the reports about the rape of Iman International Development (DfID) is aware that several al-Obeidi and that according to media reports Miss humanitarian agencies have successfully delivered medical al-Obeidi is no longer detained. If true this crime is assistance into Misratah. DfID-funded medical assistance another abhorrent example of the crimes committed has reached Misratah through our contribution to the by Gaddafi’s regime and those responsible should be International Committee of the Red Cross which is held to account. Her serious claims of mistreatment providing medical teams and supplies to assist the must be investigated thoroughly and she must also be war-wounded. given access to legal representation. A Turkish ferry which arrived on 2 April 2011 Asked by Lord Hylton evacuated 230 wounded people and Médecins Sans Frontières has delivered six tonnes of supplies into the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment city. International agencies such as these which have they have made of the proposals in the Henry accessed Misratah have been working closely with Jackson Society’s briefing paper Towards a Post-Gaddafi local partners on the ground. Libya for the stabilisation of Libya. [HL8509] WA 141 Written Answers[27 APRIL 2011] Written Answers WA 142

Lord Howell of Guildford: The Foreign and Mobile Phone Providers Commonwealth Office welcomes the public debate on Question this important issue, in which a number of organisations including the Henry Jackson Society are taking part. Asked by Lord Laird We would certainly agree with the paper’s conclusion that: To ask Her Majesty’s Government what charges are made by mobile phone network providers for “There can be no question that the most desirable outcome in Libya would be for Colonel Gaddafi to be removed from power as providing information to the police on location and a precursor to the termination of hostilities and the establishment incoming and outgoing calls on mobile phones of a democratic and representative government”. removed during night-time dwelling burglaries. [HL8480] Licensing Question Baroness Rawlings: Information as to the calls made from a mobile phone would be made available to the Asked by Lord Clement-Jones subscriber in the normal way if he/she receives an itemised bill. Charges for such services, and for location To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether those information where that is available, would be a commercial responsible for venues licensed for the sale of alcohol matter for the provider. on the premises under the Licensing Act 2003 who wish to allow dancing to celebrate the Royal Wedding weekend are required to seek authorisation for the Palestine provision of entertainment facilities on (a) the venue’s premises licence or (b) club premises certificate. Questions [HL8487] Asked by Lord Turnberg

Baroness Rawlings: The Department for Culture, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Media and Sport can see no reason why venues should they have made of reports of torture of female require a separate permission to simply allow customers Palestinian journalists by Hamas on 27 March. to sing or dance as they celebrate the Royal Wedding. I [HL8372] am sure that, in interpreting and enforcing licensing laws, local authorities will agree with the Prime Minister The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth that unnecessary regulation should not get in the way Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are not aware of of the celebrations. Premises which are already authorised such reports on 27 March 2011. However, on 30 March to provide entertainment facilities will, of course, be 2011 there was a protest in Gaza calling for an end to able to do so during the extended hours under the Palestinian disunity. There are allegations that Hamas Order. security forces used force against the protesters and journalists covering the events. Migrant Workers: Arab World As my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under- Question Secretary of State, Alistair Burt, said in his statement of 21 March 2011: Asked by Lord Hylton “I condemn the barrage of mortars on southern Israel from To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Gaza in recent days. The indiscriminate targeting of Israeli citizens, as they celebrated the Jewish festival of Purim, is unacceptable. they have to secure protection from exploitation for The firing of over 50 mortars in the space of a few hours, as well migrant and indigenous domestic workers in the as a Grad rocket on Ashkelon that caused injury and damage, Arab world. [HL8506] signals a further, worrying escalation in the situation at a time when international efforts are focused on getting Israel and the Palestinians back to the negotiating table. Hamas must halt these The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth strikes immediately, and rein in other militant factions in Gaza. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The UK remains These attacks come against the backdrop of last week’s footage seriously concerned by the treatment of expatriate of Hamas security forces assaulting students and other peaceful labour in the Arab world. We raise issues concerning demonstrators in Gaza. Over the weekend Hamas also targeted the well-being and safety of migrant and indigenous local and foreign media organisations. The people of Gaza, like domestic workers on a regular basis with host the people across the region, have an absolute right to freedom of Governments. We will continue to do so. expression and peaceful assembly. Hamas should not think that while the attention of the world is elsewhere we will turn a blind For example, as noted in the Foreign and eye to their actions”. Commonwealth Office’s Human Rights and Democracy report of 2010, in Saudi Arabia the UK raised the Asked by Lord Hylton issues faced by foreign labour with the Saudi Government, the Shura Council and the media throughout 2010. In To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment December, our embassy in Riyadh attended a conference they have made of proposals for a unified Palestinian on the issue organised by the governmental Human negotiating team or a similar interim government. Rights Commission, which brought together government [HL8446] agencies and the embassies of some of the countries who send most workers to Saudi Arabia. Our embassy Lord Howell of Guildford: We look forward to encouraged further work to be taken forward as a President Abbas forming a Government soon, in time result of the conference. for elections called for September. We support the WA 143 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 144 principles of a unified Palestinian leadership, committed TOCs Total to a negotiated peace, and call on Hamas to take immediate and concrete steps towards the quartet 2009-10 £290.9 million principles. 2008-09 £61.8 million We continue to call for both parties to return urgently to negotiations based on clear parameters. Movement £229.1 million Asked by Baroness Tonge Republic of Ireland: Celebrations To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Question they have taken or will take to foster democracy in the Occupied Territories of Palestine. [HL8464] Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Lord Howell of Guildford: President Abbas has the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford made it clear that he wishes elections to take place by on 15 February (WA 152), why they have not made September this year in the whole of the Occupied representations to the Government of the Republic Palestinian Territories. It is for Hamas to now respond of Ireland about official celebrations of incidents positively to President Abbas’s initiative. The Palestinian such as the murders at Glenwood in County Clare people deserve to have their voices heard as much as in 1921. [HL8354] any other in the region. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): In the example Railways: Franchises given, of the event that took place at Glenwood in Question County Clare on 23 January 2011, we ascertained that Asked by Lord Bradshaw it was a local initiative arranged by the local community. Therefore, no formal representations to the Irish To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much Government were considered appropriate. money was received and paid out under rail franchise cap and collar revenue support and share systems, in 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09, and 2009–10; and Sudan what are the projected figures for 2010–11. [HL7992] Question Asked by The Earl of Sandwich Earl Attlee: Train operating company (TOC) revenue To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assistance support under the rail franchise cap and collar revenue they will give North and south Sudan in the support system are computed each period and paid in reorganisation of their Armed Forces following the arrears. independence of south Sudan on 9 July. [HL8601] Payments for all franchised TOCs from 2006: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Year 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The UK is committed Revenue £3.4 £ Nil £61.8 £290.9 to its relations with north and south Sudan and will support million million million work with both Governments to promote peace and stability. This will include working to improve the TOC Revenue share under the rail franchise cap accountability of their Armed Forces. and collar revenue share system are computed and We hope to provide advice and training to both the demanded following the receipt of TOC audited accounts Sudanese Armed Forces and the Sudanese People’s for relevant rail year. Liberation Army.This will include: support to outstanding security negotiations being led by the African Union Receipts from all franchised TOCs from 2006: High Level Panel; bilateral initiatives to develop an Year 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 understanding of international humanitarian law; and methods to counter potential corruption within senior Revenue £55.2 £47.6 £14.5 £10.8 leadership and management of defence programmes, share million million million million in parallel to a programme of English language training. This will draw on expertise from, and participation The Department for Transport’s internal projections with, the United Kingdom Defence Academy and the of spending and receipts under this regime for 2010-11 British Council. and beyond cannot be published as they are commercially sensitive. Actual figures will be available after the end of the financial year once they have been audited. Turkey Questions Furthermore the increased payment in revenue support under the cap and collar regime between 2008-09 and Asked by Lord Hylton 2009-10 can be explained by two factors: To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their impact of the recession on rail travel; and assessment of the recent visit of the Prime Minister increase in the number of TOCs claiming support of Turkey to Arbil, capital of Iraqi Kurdistan. (now four TOCs, initially two TOCs in 2008-09). [HL8510] WA 145 Written Answers[27 APRIL 2011] Written Answers WA 146

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth parties to the conflict in September 2010, with the Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The UK strongly support of the UN Secretary General’s Special Envoy supports a close relationship between Turkey and for Western Sahara, Ambassador Christopher Ross. Iraq, including the Kurdistan Regional Government. In January 2011, Morocco presented proposals for In this context, we welcome Prime Minister Erdogan’s a domestic monitoring mechanism in response. We are visit to Erbil, the first by a Turkish Prime Minister. We considering these proposals carefully in advance of understand that the discussions focussed on improving discussions at the Security Council on the rollover of co-operation on economic, political, security and energy the United Nations Mission for the Referendum in issues. Close co-operation between Turkey and the Western Sahara (MINURSO)’s mandate. Kurdistan Regional Government on these issues can make an important contribution to the stability and prosperity of Iraq. We encourage both sides to continue Yemen to deepen their relations. Question Asked by Lord Hylton Asked by Lord Touhig To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment of the four demands for reform recently representations they have made to the President of made by the Democratic Society Party of Turkey. Yemen regarding his future as President of that [HL8511] country. [HL8366]

Lord Howell of Guildford: The Government have The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth not made such an assessment. The Government and Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The UK Government the EU Commission regularly discuss with Turkey the and its officials in San’a have been in constant contact political reforms required for the EU accession process. with senior Government of Yemen figures, including However, the Government believes that it is for the with the President, during the course of the current Government of Turkey to decide upon amendments crisis. We continue to watch developments closely. to their own constitution. Large numbers of Yemenis have given a clear indication to the Government of Yemen that they want change: political reform, greater employment opportunities Vietnam and an end to corruption. The President has accepted Question that it is time for him to go, but has publicly stated his intention to remain in power until the end of 2011. Asked by Lord Hylton The position of the protestors and the official opposition To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they is that President Saleh should immediately relinquish will make representations to the Government of his authority to others and stand down. We have Vietnam about the sentence imposed on Mr Cu strongly urged all parties to act with restraint, avoid Huy Ha Vu. [HL8579] resorting to violence and to urgently engage in constructive dialogue to reach a peaceful transition. It is for the Yemeni people to reach agreement on their political The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth future. But we strongly believe that the process of Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government political transition should start now. were concerned by both the process and the outcome of Mr Cu Huy Vu’s trial. Our ambassador to Vietnam raised Mr Vu’s case with the Vietnamese Ministry of Zimbabwe Foreign Affairs on 4 April. EU Heads of Mission in Question Vietnam made a statement on 7 April expressing their Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark regret and deep concern about Mr Vu’s trial. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government Western Sahara in Zimbabwe about the treatment of Jenni Williams Question and Magodonga Mahlangu. [HL8403] Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Officials in Harare the answer by Lord Howell of Guildford on regularly attend and monitor court cases and have 25 November (Official Report, col. 1166), whether, close contact with non-governmental organisations during the United Kingdom Presidency of the Security and civil society organisations in Zimbabwe including Council, any progress has been made in establishing Women of Zimbabwe Arise (WOZA). a mechanism for monitoring human rights in the We call regularly, both bilaterally and with EU Western Sahara. [HL8471] member states, for an end to all such abuses and the restoration of internationally accepted human rights The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth standards in Zimbabwe. Our ambassador issued a Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We circulated a statement on 25 March 2011 calling for the culture of non-paper on human rights monitoring options to the impunity and state-sponsored abuses to be addressed.

Wednesday 27 April 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Correction: Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Department for Transport: Project Appraisals...... 13 Regulations 2011 ...... 9 Questions for Written and Oral Answer: Costs ...... 14 Correction to Lords Written Answer ...... 9

Department for Communities and Local Government ...... 10 UK Space Agency: Performance Targets ...... 14

Wednesday 27 April 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan...... 117 Israel...... 133

Afghanistan: Opiate Poppy Production ...... 117 Israel and Palestine ...... 134

Asylum Seekers...... 118 Israel and Palestine: West Bank ...... 134

Bahrain...... 118 Ivory Coast...... 135

Burma...... 119 Kenya ...... 135

Death Penalty ...... 119 Lebanon ...... 136

Deputy Prime Minister’s Office ...... 120 Libya ...... 136

Diplomatic Missions: State Recognition ...... 120 Licensing ...... 141

Egypt ...... 121 Migrant Workers: Arab World ...... 141

Equality ...... 124 Mobile Phone Providers...... 142

EU: Directives and Regulations ...... 124 Palestine...... 142

EU: Law ...... 125 Railways: Franchises...... 143

European Union Bill [HL] ...... 129 Republic of Ireland: Celebrations ...... 144

Falkland Islands: Minefields...... 130 Sudan...... 144

Government Departments: Staff...... 130 Turkey...... 144

Gulf War Illnesses ...... 131 Vietnam ...... 145

Heads of State: Official Visits ...... 131 Western Sahara...... 145

Iraq: Camp Al Waled...... 132 Yemen...... 146

Isles of Scilly...... 133 Zimbabwe ...... 146 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL7992] ...... 143 [HL8132] ...... 137

[HL8084] ...... 118 [HL8133] ...... 137

[HL8085] ...... 136 [HL8213] ...... 121

[HL8119] ...... 136 [HL8249] ...... 130 Col. No. Col. No. [HL8252] ...... 131 [HL8436] ...... 132

[HL8277] ...... 117 [HL8444] ...... 124

[HL8278] ...... 117 [HL8445] ...... 139

[HL8294] ...... 118 [HL8446] ...... 142

[HL8295] ...... 119 [HL8447] ...... 119

[HL8327] ...... 137 [HL8449] ...... 140

[HL8328] ...... 138 [HL8464] ...... 143

[HL8329] ...... 138 [HL8471] ...... 145

[HL8331] ...... 139 [HL8480] ...... 142

[HL8332] ...... 139 [HL8487] ...... 141

[HL8349] ...... 121 [HL8506] ...... 141

[HL8354] ...... 144 [HL8509] ...... 140

[HL8355] ...... 131 [HL8510] ...... 144

[HL8356] ...... 131 [HL8511] ...... 145

[HL8357] ...... 132 [HL8514] ...... 125

[HL8361] ...... 129 [HL8519] ...... 130

[HL8362] ...... 120 [HL8543] ...... 133

[HL8363] ...... 120 [HL8544] ...... 134

[HL8364] ...... 120 [HL8545] ...... 134

[HL8366] ...... 146 [HL8547] ...... 121

[HL8370] ...... 134 [HL8548] ...... 135

[HL8372] ...... 142 [HL8555] ...... 122

[HL8373] ...... 136 [HL8556] ...... 122

[HL8402] ...... 135 [HL8557] ...... 123

[HL8403] ...... 146 [HL8558] ...... 123

[HL8404] ...... 119 [HL8559] ...... 123

[HL8409] ...... 132 [HL8560] ...... 133

[HL8410] ...... 120 [HL8561] ...... 133

[HL8411] ...... 132 [HL8579] ...... 145

[HL8412] ...... 131 [HL8600] ...... 117

[HL8428] ...... 124 [HL8601] ...... 144 Volume 727 Wednesday No. 141 27 April 2011

CONTENTS

Wednesday 27 April 2011 Questions Higher Education: ERASMUS Scheme ...... 105 Oak Processionary Moth ...... 107 Schools: Curriculum and PSHE Reviews...... 110 Iraq: Camp Ashraf ...... 112 Postal Services Bill Order of Consideration Motion ...... 114 Pensions Bill [HL] Third Reading ...... 114 Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill Second Reading ...... 128 Grand Committee Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of List of Responders) Order 2011 Debated ...... GC 1 Charities (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Order 2011 Debated ...... GC 4 Companies Act 2006 (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Order 2011 Debated...... GC 10 Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 (Time Limit for Appeals) (Amendment) Regulations 2011 Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943 (Armed Forces and Reserve Forces Compensation Scheme) (Rights of Appeal) Regulations 2011 Debated...... GC 18 Written Statements ...... WS 9 Written Answers...... WA 117