avid Ossman and his partner-in-crime, DJudith Walcutt, have nary a spare mo- ment when they are not writing, perform- Judith and David in “Radio Movies” ing, directing or organizing something. We in 1986. The couple worked together managed to slow them down long enough to answer our little questionnaire. What follows while at WGBH in Boston. are the questions we asked and the gracious couple’s answers, just as they were originally typed. Cast: DO is played by David Ossman JW is played by Judith Walcutt CS is the nom de plume of Chromium Switch editors, Tom Gedwillo and Phil Fountain.

CS: Judith, first question is for you, what brought the Ossman/Walcutt team together?

JW: We“coalesced” producing “Radio Movies”at WGBH in Boston. We had been working on the last major drama series to come out of Boston, The Web--Young People’s Radio Theatre--and we both had the same esthetic for what we were trying to do in the audio medium--When we made The Red Badge of Courage together, we broke it out of the studio, captured things live and on locations, (we recorded the reenactment of the Battle of Lexington, so we could get authentic musket fire) and put it into the mix of what JW: I don’t believe that audio isn’t high- was finally a fully-loaded 24 track mix. It felt tech. I do believe that young people, young JW: While producing/writing for radio/audio, like a real breakthrough in the medium. Up children, even, are bombarded by media from I think VERY visually, hyper-visually, really, to that point, there had been a lot of what we all directions and that a rather large shift is and then I reflect on how to turn that vision called “ring a bell, slam door, radio drama”-- taking place in which choice and self-pro- into a real place, in sound. Our production all of it was really a lot of fun--unbelievable gramming—by download onto i-pods and the of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is the most amounts of work--we did 26 two-hour blocks media devices that are evolving now––is go- visual audio experience you can imagine! in under six months. We worked round the ing to allow expanded access to materials out As a writer—of poems or stories, I am also clock--which is probably another reason we there that parents AND children would enjoy hyper aware of the sound of it, the language got married--it made working together easier. but have had limited access to because of the as it lays out on the page and then stirs in the And then of course there were the kids-- formal gatekeepers of the broadcast and pub- mind, with assonances and, of course, dis- we’ve folded them into the act. Orson was the lishing media. All that‘s out there—including sonances and the hosts of words within words screaming baby in the background of our War highly produced radio/audio experiences— which stir up memory, image, emotion. It’s all of the Worlds production. That truly WAS can now be available to its audience. That there—in the psycho-acoustics of the thing. a Radio Movie--Jason Robards on location audience—child or otherwise—is not unfamil- at Sky Walker Ranch, Steve Allen dying for iar with listening and listening to stories being DO: Audio theatre – radio – Firesign records us as the last reporter, on a roof top in New told and the sophistication of language, plot, - all same thing. What is reality? Sound! York--Hector Elizondo in a supporting role! story, sound settings, psychological acous- Sure, sight is equally useful but more easily And Randy Thom driving the sound design- tics, etc.—this really is part of their media bored and distracted, if not asleep. I approach -we had such a blast doing that and over the consciousness, practically from birth. Some script-writing and adaptation to audio from years--I would have to say that listening to people are even playing their children music other media – fiction, stage, historical-bio- those albums my brother brought home from PRE-birth. So no, radio plays are not neces- graphical – as a craft, like screenwriting, that college, late at night, laying on the floor , sarily low tech and young people—all that I has certain disciplines, narrative devices and between the speakers, just a lava light on have seen, worked with, and known, over the the like. In “Empire of the Air” I deliberately maybe-- has certainly had a lasting effect on years of producing and raising two boys of constructed each scene with a specific “old my work--and life. our own, seem to LIKE to listen to stuff—all radio” form in mind, just to have that in the kinds of stuff: music, stories highly produced subtext. Almost any kind of story can be told CS: Judith, Much of your work is aimed at or simply read out loud. It’s a very natural, this way. (People hear a “mix.” “Ambience” young people, yet you often use an art form, instinctual, human sort of thing to do—to curl is the audio theatre word for the reproduc- audio theater, that many of your audience may up and listen to a story. tion of it.) Other rules govern storytelling in be completely unfamiliar with. How does the “print” forms like the short-story or novel. High-Tech generation respond to the relative- CS: (For both) As authors, can you tell us how All rules can and should be broken. But ly Low-Tech medium? your approach differs when writing for “audio remember, reading a book is still making up theater” as opposed to writing for print? Or is the sound effects and dialogue in your head or there a difference? as you read aloud. And that’s reality for sure. Read to your kids! Early and often. David had known from his radio show and I out. And of course, we listened to every word knew, as a student, at Bard College. I would and image – “the pump don’t work ‘cause the CS: David, as a practitioner of the “sullen say one good reason we got married was vandals stole the handle” – for their endless art” (like how I worked that in? Huh?) your because we read and loved a lot of the same subtexts. “The Moonsign Book” of mine work seems deeply rooted in the lineage of books—and poetry. In fact, when he saw my from 1968 is full of a Dylanish feel. American poetry with a particular nod to The books—one shelf is one of everything Black Beats, yet there’s the element of early 20th Sparrow Press had published up to a certain JW: Did you know that THE pump that the Century European avant-garde (Dadaism) moment, he swooned. He probably married vandal’s stole the handle from is located in the very evident. Can you tell us a little about me for my books. little town square of Annandale-on-Hudson, your connection to the Beat era and your early On another note, while David was doing his where Bard College is located? I had people influences? thing in poetry with the beats--in an earlier tell me, my freshman year, that they actually lifetime from Firesign life, I, in another time/ KNEW the vandals who stole the handle— DO: “The Sullen Art” was a title lifted from space continuum--was in fact doing poetry AS but probably it was more or less a non-urban Dylan Thomas’ “in my craft and sullen art.” a performance medium--writing and working legend by that time. To me, in 1960, it presented the image of with dancers to create a three movement bal- the poet, alone with his/her craft. Good title let of a piece called “The Shadow’s Garden” CS: You both produce and direct for the In- for a radio series. In my poetry, before the based on a fairy tale collected by W.B. Yeats. ternational Mystery Writers Festival, how did Beat era, obviously Dylan Thomas (a su- I was in grad school at the time, 1975-1976, that association come about? preme writer for radio) and, for breaking the and hanging out at the Woman’s building, and rules, e. e. cummings. My poetry teacher doing a piece with a dance company--which DO: I’ll let Judith tell the story. at Columbia, Leonie Adams, turned me on to performed the work both at Cal Arts and the the Beats, shortly after “On The Road” was Woman’s Building and then at USC. Prior to JW: Well, it was a matter of reading the junk published – she thought I would feel at home that-- prior to moving to California to go to mail. David has been encouraging me for with them – and the Evergreen Review “San graduate school in Rhetoric, Linguistics and some time to just throw the damn stuff out. Francisco Scene” issue shortly appeared. All Literature, I had a play debut off-broadway And I tried to. I really did. But this one day, these poets (and their influences – William at the LaMamma Etc. No one has heard of these two letters came in, one to him and one Carlos Williams, Charles Olson) made for a this play and probably it will never been seen to me, a sort of mass mailing envelope-style real change in my work. It was all about “the again. It went under the title, created by the with mailing labels, from a place called Riv- breath.” In the early Sixties in New York my ensemble theatre group I was “writing” for at erPark Center. I thought, “Here’s some junk mentor was Paul Blackburn, but the “scene” the time, “Bah! Let there be Light, Cow”. It mail—there’s two of them.” I tossed them. – readings and the like were a great mix and was quite mad. Then I thought, well, I look at the damn cou- something I needed to convey to the listening pons in my Texaco bill, why don’t I open it world via WBAI. Poetry was all about read- anyway. It turned out to be a job description ing aloud to an audience. My first model and CS: As a voice actor and poet, how large a for producing the live radio theatre unit for lifelong friend, Ray Bradbury, showed me the part does the sound of the words play in your a new theatre festival they would be holding way to become a writer and how to behave as writing? It seems to me that your poems beg in Kentucky. The subject was mysteries. I a “celebrity.” DADA appealed to me with its to be read aloud. Do you write “in audio”? ran up stairs, this thing clutched in my hand anarchic anti-war anti-art spirit and I particu- and said—David the answer has FINALLY larly liked Tristan Tzara. Surrealism – dream- DO: See above. I read everything aloud. come in the mail! Junk mail/NOT!!!! We state – was obviously an influence (think of telephoned immediately. We were the first Next World), but the great artist/nonartist for JW: In school, they considered I had some people they called back. I was supposed to me was Marcel Duchamp and the most versa- kind of reading problem—I sub-vocalized send them a resume—but before I actually tile of artists in all media was Jean Cocteau. everything like it was a play and imagined got to it, they called back and told us they had I’ve translated and worked with the texts of everything like it was a movie. It took longer Googled us and decided we were they ones all three. I learned to write plays from Gilbert to do, but I certainly enjoyed the experience for the job. It is a VERY challenging project. & Sullivan, riff from Lord Buckley and Wolf- as over and above the “speed reading for the The first year, we produced three different man Jack, radio from Norman Corwin and facts” approach, for the sake of test-taking, for performances of six different scripts, in under Fibber McGee & Molly, a loose groove from gosh sakes! 7 days from start to finish. The next year, we Steve Allen, Kerouac, Chandler and William did a total of something like 45 performances Powell. Did I mention Mickey Rooney and CS: You’ve mentioned your admiration for (9 shows, five times each?) (Is that even pos- Henry Aldrich? Brecht? Godot? Jarry? Bob Dylan’s work. Are his songs still on rota- sible?) in ten days. The third year we did just tion on your iPod? As a poet, he is definitely the four different Agatha Christie radio plays, JW: Though you didn’t ask, I’ll tell you concerned with the sound of words, even a total of six shows, culminating in a live anyway, that my greatest influences were though his voice is “like a dead man’s last broadcast. Working hard but having fun, is not dissimilar to David’s. Though mine in pistol shot.” As you’re writing, do you think our modus operendi. the writing area are more heavily weighted of your poems as performance pieces? (This towards James Joyce, e.e.cummings, Virgina may be a redundant question, pretty much the CS: Obviously, radio captured your imagina- Woolf and even Edith Wharton, over the Beats same as the last one… answer the one you tion early on. Your first job was as “Young —though I sure read and loved Ferlinghetti like best!) Tom Edison” on the 1938 serial, or do I have and Ginsberg and Levertov and pretty much you confused with someone else? everyone else on the above list of his. You DO: Uh, he’s on the boombox. Better yet, see, we had read the same people and the first Bob is on Preston’s iPod along with the DO: Actually, GLT’s first job was at the 1933 conversation we ever had was about poetry Beatles (and 100’s of others). I started play- Chicago World’s Fair (see page 136 of “The and a poet named Robert Kelley—whom ing Dylan on the radio after the first LP came Ronald Reagan Murder Case”) as Young Tom Edison. See the forthcoming “Anythynge You alter your perception of the group? JW: On my bed stand: “Fools and Death” by Want To” for GLT’s work with the Firesign David Ossman, “The Dhammapada” translat- Radio Theatre 1939-1942 (in the Appendix DO: Rather, the time away completely ed by Irving Babbit, “Ngondro Commentary” titled “The Curious History of “The Firesign changed my life. By the time we reunited for by Chagdud Tulku translated by Jane Tromge, Theatre”). I remember radio as early as 1941 the 25th Anniversary Show, I had moved to “Luminous Emptiness: Understanding the and seeing “Mr. First Nighter” done live in New Mexico, Boston and Whidbey Island. Tibetan Book of the Dead” by Francesca Hollywood a decade later gave me my career I’d remarried and Orson was a four-year-old Fremantle, a collection of Agatha Christie goal. and Preston a baby. Judith and I had pro- Novels including “The Murder of Roger Ack- duced hours of great radio theatre with star royd, Philomel Cottage”, and “Witness for the CS: The George L. Tirebiter persona has been talent. Frankly, I was wary of a renewal of Prosecution”, a biography of Agatha Christie, entwined into your career and seems to be a the collaboration if it proved to be a dead end. “A Woman and Her Mysteries”, and, finally, real touchstone for you. George is very real to As it turned out, of course, we were writing “Freddy the Detective Pig” by Walter Brooks. us, your fans. What does the character mean together better than ever in 1998 and perform- to you? ing better than ever in 2010. Plus, as time CS: Are we correct in feeling that there is a bit passed, rather than fading, we have become of a Firesign Theatre Renaissance happening? DO: George is entirely real. He is suf- “legendary.” Who knew? Is this resurgence due to your presence on the ficiently older than I to have had a great Internet? What do you attribute it to? career in the Golden Ages of both radio and Hollywood. He has faced blacklisting, DO: I think we are at least partly responsible, divorce, business struggles, betrayal and by performing in a media environment angst. George’s return as Veep candidate that allows news and pictures and opin- in 1976 was a great personal high, and his ion to circulate immediately and freely. reappearance as my co-host on WGBH’s Certainly Chromium Switch and Face- “Radio Movies” a few years later was book as organizing tools and dispensers a treat. He’s pretty old now, but that of information have been vitally important hasn’t curbed his appetite! during the past year. Also, we’ve proven to be unique in what we do together and CS: It must have been a gas using the the work we have done remains funny and vintage equipment you found at the useful and, I hope, profound. Unique is CBS studios during the “Nick Danger” good. sessions. Did those old RCA mics add to the ambience of the recordings? CS: If you had your druthers, what would your next Big Project be? DO: Oh, yes! When Jim Guercio put condenser mics on us for the DO: Taking Agatha Christie’s BBC Murders “single” it was painfully obvious to Broadway would be fun for us. For me, they couldn’t be worked like the getting my Archive preserved in a Special RCA’s, they exaggerated the highs Collection would be an accomplishment. (air conditioning!), were unflatter- ing to our voices and were clearly JW: Of course Agatha on the Great White not for us. Back to the vintage Way would be surreal; Currently, I am mics. Nick Danger was done on working on advancing a web site for young the RCA’s. But all mics are use- people—which will be both edutaining, a ful and we’ve used shotguns and lot of fun, and useful for teachers, parents, lavs and at NPR I had my own and students in an educational environment Neuman with my own special starved for funding for basics and lacking eq so I would sound extra cool. anything at all for “enrichment.”

CS: What does being a member And of course, if I won the lottery or some- of the Firesign Theatre mean to you? Are thing, I would be writing fiction, for children you pleased with your legacy, or is there any- CS: We’re and adults, full time. thing you wish you had done differently? always curious, what are you reading? What is on your nightstands right now? CS: We know a new book of poetry is coming DO: It’s a remarkable legacy and I’m very out soon. What else is lurking in the wings? pleased with it. Having so much of our work DO: I just finished reading Michael Sheldon’s enter the language is a great honor and still “Mark Twain: Man In White.” Wonderful DO: “Fools & Death” from Ion Drive is being in print after 40 years is a great, if not biography. Very moving. I’m now just into really two books – “Poems For Fools,” greatly profitable, career. On a personal level, Tommy Chong’s “Cheech & Chong – The written during the Firesign’s XM radio days I have never been so close to my companions Unauthorized Autobiography” and I see what and featuring Beat St. Jack – and “The Day in this work as I am now, and feel profoundly he means. The Sunday New York Times. I’ve of the Dead,” which continues to track the fortunate to have joined with them when I did. recently read and enjoyed Pynchon’s “Inher- Endless War and chronicle Death as it enters ent Vice” and Bazell’s “Beat The Reaper,” our lives. An earlier, three-book-book called CS: You took a sabbatical from the Firesign which, in spite of its ripoff title is a good read. “Round Trips with Putnam’s, Refuges & The Theatre back in the 80’s. Did the time away Infrathin” covers the millennial years 1999- 2001, but that ain’t published yet, like a lot a theatre and stand-up comedy classes—for CS: Thank you both so much for indulging us, of my work since the gorgeous books from a semester abroad). He is a really good actor you’re very kind. Turkey Press in the early ‘80s. They continue and we use him whenever we can. While to lurk, along with most of the found, sound, Preston has done quite a bit of acting (he did Photographs courtesy of Judith Walcutt and collaged and manipulated work – poems in a GREAT “Nick” in Herb Gardner’s play “A David Ossman as well as the Chromium various forms, some of which were beauti- Thousand Clowns,” when he was 12), he is Switch Archives & The Communist Martyr fully produced for NPR by Ev Grimes. leaning more towards music and producing. High School People’s Lending Library. He plays a few instru- JW: See above—but add to that, I am devel- ments and writes songs. oping media for, don’t laugh, the touch-phone. He produces concerts Writing and illustrating stories that can be sent on Whidbey. He goes as texts for the child audience: Anyone out to a high school called there want to be a beta tester?. Lakeside in Seattle where he manages their internet CS: We’ve noticed Orson and Preston man- radio station. Like I said, ning video equipment and the like at recent the boys can’t help them- shows, there is quite an Ossman Family pres- selves. It’s just in the ence around the FT these days. Are the boys genes! The show must interested in performing? Writing? Produc- go on! tion? CS: Is there anything DO: Judith? you’d like to say directly to all the Fireheads out JW: Both have been on stage and behind there? Anything you’d a microphone, camera, and generally “on” like to mention that we practically since birth. It’s in their genes. haven’t brought up? They can’t help themselves. Orson had a wonderful bit on the CBS remake of The Fu- DO: Bless you and thank gitive which was being shot in the area, at the you. Namaste. time. It was an odd moment on the set when the director called “Orson—we’re ready for JW: Thanks for your your close-up!” Now, ten years later, Orson support all these years! I is at the Dodge School of Film and TV at thank you, our children Chapman College in So. Cal. He is a directing thank you—carry on! major. (Though at this EXACT moment, he On Maxwelton Beach, the couple’s 22nd Anniversary, August 29, is in London at Middlesex University, taking 2009.