Interview with Miriam Toews

[00:00:09] Kendra Hello, I'm Kendra Winchester, here with Autumn Privett. And this is Reading Women, a podcast inviting you to reclaim half the bookshelf by discussing books written by or about women. And today we're talking to Miriam Toews, the author of WOMEN TALKING, which is out now from Bloomsbury.

[00:00:23] Autumn You can find a complete transcript and a list of all the books mentioned in today's episode linked in our show notes. And don't forget to review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. I feel like, Kendra, this interview marks off a bucket list item for you.

[00:00:40] Kendra Yes.

[00:00:40] Autumn Which doesn't happen often. But it does happen.

[00:00:45] Kendra Yes. I fell in love hard and fast for Miriam Toews when I read ALL MY PUNY SORROWS, and then even more so with WOMEN TALKING. And so Jacqueline and I went and found all of her books in paperback in the matching Canadian editions because we're that extra. But also very much in love. And they actually are downstairs as a display talking piece in my living room.

[00:01:09] Autumn And then they proceeded to double-team me into abandoning my TBR and picking this one up.

[00:01:16] Kendra Yes. So we are so excited to talk to Miriam Toews today about WOMEN TALKING, which is her latest novel, which came out this past spring. It is fabulous. So Miriam Toews has written so many other novels. She's a very prolific writer. She's the author of six previous bestselling novels: ALL MY PUNY SORROWS, SUMMER OF MY AMAZING LUCK, A BOY OF GOOD BREEDING, A COMPLICATED KINDNESS, THE FLYING TROUTMANS, and IRMA VOTH—and one work of nonfiction, SWING LOW: A LIFE. She is the winner of the Governor General's Award for Fiction, the Libris Award for Fiction Book of the Year, the Rogers Writers' Trust Fiction Prize, and the Writers Trust Engle/Findley Award. She lives in Toronto. And also as a side note for American listeners, Counterpoint recently released a reissuing of a lot of her novels, and they have beautiful matching covers because we have priorities here. And so as a note today, this book is about a series of sexual assaults that happened in an Mennonite community. So just a content warning. If you're listening in the car with small ears, you may not want to hear the discussion of that. It's kept to very much a minimum, but it is mentioned that it does happen. So just FYI as we head into our conversation today. So without further ado, here is our conversation with Miriam Toews.

[00:02:45] Kendra Well, Miriam, we are so, so thrilled to talk to you today about your latest book. Welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:52] Miriam Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:54] Autumn I feel like Kendra and I have been talking about this book for so long. She read it first—in typical fashion with us—and texted me immediately was like, "Stop what you're doing and read WOMEN TALKING. I promise you won't be disappointed." So we're super excited to talk about it today.

[00:03:14] Kendra I fell fast and hard for this novel, and I read it in one day. Another co- host, Jacqueline, she and I buddy-read it together. We just sat there in a book coma. And we were like, "Now what do we do with our lives now that the book is over?"

[00:03:29] Miriam Yeah, well, I mean, thanks. That's really so cool. I appreciate hearing that. I'm glad that it's had that impact or effect on you. I've never heard the expression "book coma" before. But I think I might start using that.

[00:03:51] Kendra Well, the book we're talking about today is WOMEN TALKING, and in the introduction, you have an author's note. And it says it's based on true events. And we started out the book, and these women in the community have to respond to a series of violence that's happened in their community. So who are these women? And what is the decision that they're having to make?

[00:04:13] Miriam Well, I mean, the true story—the real women are women who are from the Manitoba colony, actually. In my book, I call it that Molochna Colony. And Molochna was the name of the first Mennonite community in Russia, where all of us Mennonites—I grew up with Mennonites anyway, came from—and that includes Mennonites in Bolivia. But so the women in the book are living in a very (as they are in real life) in an ultra- conservative Mennonite colony, a closed colony in Bolivia. In the book, it's not stated specifically where the colony is, but in real life, as I say, it's in Bolivia, the Manitoba colony and Bolivia. And it's named after Manitoba, the province here in Canada, where I'm from and where the Mennonites who are there originally migrated from. It's a very isolated, remote colony. These are, like I said, very conservative, ultra-conservative, fundamentalist, authoritarian, patriarchal cultures where where the roles for men and women are very clear. And essentially the women are prisoners really within these communities. They don't speak the language of the country that they're in. They only speak the Mennonite language, which is an unwritten language. They're not educated. They're illiterate. They don't leave the colonies unless they're accompanied by men. They're virtual prisoners within these communities. And these communities are self- governed, self-policed. So when these sorts of attacks, these rapes or whatever it is, any type of violence, then when they occur, there is no recourse for the women, for anybody. In this case, the women weren't believed. Then when it finally was revealed, and the elders understood what had happened to them and believed them or claim to, they were simply told to forget about it, to forgive and to, you know. . . . And that, of course, that they had been responsible for the attacks, which I guess is something that we women hear often in every type of society.

[00:06:18] Autumn Yeah, that's so true. And there's so many things about this story that are unfortunately very relevant to today's culture or modern society. Instead of telling a nonfiction story, you chose to fictionalize this story. So what made you decide to tell the story in that particular way? And what does fiction bring to it that a nonfiction account of this might not have?

[00:06:43] Miriam Yeah, it's an imagined response to the rape. I thought about different ways of getting into the story or telling the story. I realized that I didn't want to be reenact or recreate the rape. That seemed to me like a sort of extension of the violence, reviolating the women in a sense. And what I was more interested in was their response, their collective response and what they would do. And I wanted to create the urgency of that decision-making process and just the various questions. I had so many questions about this. How could this have happened? I mean, this is my community. I'm a Mennonite. I'm familiar with these patriarchal, authoritarian communities having grown up in one. And and so I had questions. I had some vague—I wouldn't say answers because that's not the job of a novelist. But, you know, I mean, I could kind of see it. I wasn't surprised when I heard about the rapes. I was horrified like everybody. But I wasn't surprised. And I don't think any Mennonites growing up in these types of communities would be too surprised either. But I mean, I am a fiction writer, so, you know, for me to fictionalize something is a kind of natural thing for me to do, where I'm most comfortable. I also feel that, you know, fiction lends itself to a certain kind of truth telling that maybe nonfiction doesn't necessarily. I wanted to have this kind of philosophical conversation, discussion between the women. And I guess in order to do that, I needed to fictionalize it.

[00:08:20] Kendra When I think about this book and when I pitch it to people, I often think, have you ever seen TWELVE ANGRY MEN? The play or the movie or whatever. And it's, you know, a room and a bunch of dudes and they're talking. And they have to make a decision. And so I think about WOMEN TALKING. And in a lot of ways, it's similar. They're in this room, and they're having to make this choice and how they're going to respond to these events while the men are off in town and they have this opportunity. You just mentioned that they talk about philosophy and they also talk about theology. Did you plan to structure this book this way as an extended conversation over the course of a few days? How did that structure kind of come to be?

[00:09:03] Miriam Yeah, I did plan eventually when I started seriously thinking about how I was going to do it. I did. I loved the idea of a conversation. You know, again, I didn't want to reenact the crime. And I liked the idea of women talking, basically. Especially since, you know, these women are so silenced and so without a voice, without agency, without any ability to control their own lives. And being from birth fed the scripture and so-called wisdom being handed down to them by the elders who were all male, et cetera, et cetera. And so to give these women a type of voice within the kind of structure, our conversation was something that appealed to me in terms of it being a sort of subversion of what these women were used to. Also the idea of the women being being the philosophers and the planners and giving them that type of agency. Yeah, it was a form that I've never used before in any of my books. And it was challenging to keep the voices of the women distinct, one from the other. And I think that sometimes, you know, it's hard to maybe, or a little bit difficult, to know who's talking now. And in a sense, that was okay with me, and a little bit intentional, because this is a collective community. And they kind of function as one voice. I mean, certainly there's a divide between the men and the women. But the women themselves, their lives are so similar. They're expected to have babies, take care of babies, take care of the men, cook, clean, et cetera, and farm too. But so collectively, for them to kind of have one voice, sort of like as a chorus within this conversation made sense to me. And then, of course, I tried to to distinguish the characters so that the readers would know who was talking. And having the different generations of women helped with that too: the teenagers, and then the younger women, mothers, and then the grandmothers.

[00:11:02] Autumn One of my favorite things about the story was how we see these women's thought processes and how they kind of unfold in this conversation and how their different voices clash, and they're part of their discussion. And, Kendra and I were talking after we read this book, we both come from conservative, religious communities ourselves. And so we definitely understand some of the arguments that these women were making or the things that they were talking about or some of the things you just mentioned about expectations and gender roles and things like that. Was this something that just kind of came out of the discussion as the women were talking? Or were these topics things that you wanted to specifically address before you set out to write the novel?

[00:11:49] Miriam I think it was kind of more of an organic thing. You know, I think at the beginning I knew who the women would be, that's kind of very important to me when I start writing a book to just really, really know who my characters are and what the situation is, basically. And then try to be as true to that as I can and dialog and their motivation and how they feel, how they express themselves, and what they ultimately do. You know, given the circumstances or what they were thinking that they were planning, they have three options, I guess: to leave the community, stay and fight, or to do nothing. And all three of those, you know, there are high stakes attached to each of those decisions. And none of them come lightly, of course. And so just given that, that kind of acted as a touchstone that I could go back to in terms of then what their conversation would be. So it's a little bit organic at the beginning. But then, you know, as I got further and further into their discussion, it became a little bit more clear, you know, in terms of what I needed to have them talk about and what things they needed to mention or to think about, you know, in their process of making a decision, you know. Like, for instance, what about what about boys of a certain age, you know, their sons and brothers of a certain age, young teenage males, you know. Do they pose a threat, you know, and how could that possibly be? How could they leave them behind? You know, like I said, I mean, high-stake decisions are heartbreaking and terrifying. We don't even know, I mean, they don't know the world outside the colony. So all of those types of things, you know, the kind of circumstances of their life, I knew that I had to bring into their discussion.

[00:13:33] Kendra And there's such a wide range of thoughts and opinions and ideas that you've mentioned. The voices of the different women are so distinct, and they go back and forth about theology and philosophy for a very long time. And I think that there's this stereotype that conservative women live the way they do because they're ignorant, or they're not educated. Even though they're illiterate, they're obviously very, very intelligent. Has there been a lot of surprise that you've read or experienced when talking about this book about how these women characters are, I mean, obviously, so, so intelligent? Were you consciously trying to push back against that stereotype as well?

[00:14:14] Miriam You know, I mean, groups like this, these sects—or you could even describe them as cults—it's easy to think of them almost as non-human. You know, when you see them, perhaps, you know, they come to town for some reason. And then you see these groups of, you know, conservative religious people all wearing the same clothes, the uniform, and these rules. And I think the tendency is to sort of go "Ugh" with these religious nuts, and then they go away into these remote places, and you kind of forget about them. And it's almost like they don't really exist. And even if they do exist, you know, in your in your mind, or as you contemplate them, you know, as though they are not quite the same as us, and in many ways they're not. But in so many ways, they are because they're human, of course. And so that was something that I wanted to. . . . Yeah, I did. I was conscious of that. You know, I wanted to get that across. And also I modeled these women, if that's the right word, after women that I know: two families, my own and my closest friend's family. She's a Mennonite from the same community and my own family. So sisters and aunts and mothers and grandmothers, et cetera, daughters. And in that way, I was able to sort of convey their humanity. And like you say, their intelligence, their ability to reason, their ability to think, which is something that they want to do. They want to be able to think, you know, they want the right to think. They want to think for themselves. And that was my experience, too, growing up in my own community. Even though my community was not as ultra-conservative, although the rules were. The expectations of women were. But some of the kind of surface details were different. Like we didn't dress the same with long, long dresses and covering our hair all the time. Although some of us did. And we were educated. Girls were educated as well, to a certain point. And higher education was frowned on, but. . . . So there were some differences. But essentially, I mean, I grew up with these women. Men and boys were kind of so separate from us. You know, the women and the girls were the ones that I knew intimately and spent my life listening to and sort of really noticing that subversive, in a way, language and the joking, the laughter, the arguing, you know. The snarkiness too, you know. Just the well, just fully rounded women that were. . . . When the men were around, you know, suddenly became so submissive and quiet and surveil. And it was such a shock to me growing up, knowing what I knew as women in terms, you know, their own personalities, their intellect, their humor, their passion, and their subversiveness, I guess, is that thing that I keep going back to. That was so, such a strong memory for me.

[00:16:55] Autumn Which really, definitely comes through in the women's conversations and how they interact with each other, which is why I thought it was so interesting that the narrator of this story is actually a man named August, who has recently returned to the community after living in exile for a long time. And both of his parents are dead, we come to find out. And they've been excommunicated from the community. So could you talk to us a little bit about August and who he is and the role that he has in this story?

[00:17:30] Miriam August is also a kind of marginalized character within the community, even though he is male. And so because he is male, he does enjoy a few more privileges than the women, even though not very many more. He's mocked. He's derided. He's not thought of as fully male, really as a real man by the other men in the community. His parents have been excommunicated for various, ridiculous reasons. He's an outsider. He's marginalized. He's disenfranchised. He's without a voice, really like the women, in a sense. But he does know how to read and write because he's male. And again, these rules have been subverted within within the loft. The women are, like you say, the theologians, the philosophers, the planners, you know, the ones who are acting, who are thinking. And he's been asked by the women, by one of the women (Ona), to take these minutes, and only as an act of compassion Ona's part, because Ona senses that August is despairing, is in fact suicidal. And so as an act of compassion and friendship, she says to him, August, you know, basically just come with us, you'll be safe with us in the loft, just come with us women. And here we'll give you this task, this kind of basically irrelevant task. These minutes don't mean anything to the women. They can't read them. The hope is that they'll go on to write their own stories, create their own map, as it were, metaphorically. And August is there, you know, as that kind of male, not as an "all man" kind of thing, but as a kind of male representative. He's there to listen and to learn and to bear witness. And, of course, to take the minutes. And he comes with some outside experience as well, because like you said, he was excommunicated. He lived in London, studied at university. And so that external, I guess, kind of sort of occupies that liminal space between the inside, the closedness of the colony and the outside world. And then so in the narrative, he can bring in some kind of, what I thought was necessary, breathers in a sense from the anecdotes through opinions of his own ideas, notions that he has. He is reluctant to express them because, of course, you know, it's not his job to be saying anything. You know, it's his job to take the minutes and to record what the women are saying. But I thought that just in terms of the narrative, it offered the reader a kind of a breather from the intensity. And the sort of like, oh, you know, claustrophobic kind of intensity of their conversation. And that he can read and write. So there are a bunch of reasons for August.

[00:20:12] Kendra And we'll be back with more of this episode of Reading Women after a word from our sponsor. . . . I found August so interesting because like you said, it's like he's neither fully male in this community and is neither female. It's like he doesn't have a place. And throughout the narrative, different characters also come in that illustrate that they also don't have a place in this patriarchal structure, whether they have some mental disabilities or maybe they're older or different things. And the women also have this conversation. Like who do we bring? And different things like that. But August in particular, I felt was almost like a bridge for the reader. He's kind of sitting in between both worlds, and it gives the reader a filter to help understand what's going on because I imagine most people reading this book are not from this community. And so there's a lot to learn, and August is kind of that bridge in that way. And he was very helpful in some instances to learn more about the culture and about the world building, as it were.

[00:22:20] Miriam Yeah, exactly. And he's a compassionate man. He's a good guy. And I guess I felt, too, that given the circumstances, given the horrific, the monstrousness ("monstrosity" I guess is the word) of these acts committed by the men, the local men, Mennonite men and their community, you know, it was necessary for me anyway to have a man like August, somebody like, you know, there's some hope there. I felt I needed him to be a person, a man, to be able to listen and to learn and to pass that learning on. I mean, he's a teacher. You know, the things that he learns from the women when he is in the loft with them. And so, you know, he's in this kind of submissive role learning from the women. And, you know, but using that information in the same way that the women have learned from the men, you know, for better for worse, men are using to inform their decisions.

[00:23:09] Autumn So we've kind of talked about this a little bit already. But as these women are discussing whether they should stay and fight or do nothing or leave, there are some pretty heated discussions that come up, especially about leaving the men in the family, especially the younger sons. And there's this one boy who has some learning disabilities. And I mean, it makes sense, but I think it's something that people don't often think about. And I think that we think, too. I don't know. It's so easy to judge people for the decisions that they make. What made you decide to kind of complicate this story and show that it wasn't as cut and dry as maybe we may think as outsiders?

[00:23:50] Miriam Yeah, that's true. The women are making their decision, you know, within the context of their faith, which is very important to them. It's not something that . . . . They're not like secular Mennonites like myself, or disenfranchised Mennonites, where I can say, "Okay, you know, everything that I learned in know this religious education, I can argue with. I can not believe. I can turn my back on." That's not where they're at. In a sense, you know, they're going through this. They're reclaiming the better part of the scripture. You know, the parts of the scriptures that are hopeful, that are inclusive, that are genuinely loving. I don't know if it's August, I can't quite remember, who says, they're creating their their own new religion. Which, of course, is a completely radical, revolutionary, subversive thing for any Mennonite woman to claim. And they don't, you know. August says it for them. They, the women themselves, would never say it. They laugh about this too and talk about it too. You know, we're not revolutionaries. We're not insubordinate. This isn't an uprising, you know, and they want no violence. The Menninite tenet of pacifism, for instance, which is one of the central tenets of faith there, is very important to them. They, you know, circle around this argument. Okay. We're pacifists. You know, we are pacifist. So therefore, you know, our actions will be this, this, and this, based on that. Yeah. So I think it is easy, like you were saying, for a lot of us, myself included, to say, like, get the heck out of there. Just forget it. Just leave, you know, or be violent. I mean, if the violence is required almost, you know, to fight this. I mean, you know, Salame, one of the characters, takes scythes and attacks one of the guys. But for the most part, I mean, their faith and the tenets of their faith, pacifism are very, very important to them, which is a challenge to me to write. You know, because although that's how I grew up, my mother—I live with my mother; my mother lives with us—you know, she still is a devout Mennonite, attends a Mennonite church. Like a liberal, you know, a progressive Mennonite church. But it is a Mennonite church, nevertheless. And so it's easy for me to kind of talk with her and tap into that and to remember that these women are, again, like I say, operating from their faith and making decisions based on their faith, but also on the idea that perhaps they have been sold a bill of goods when it comes to the interpretation of the Bible, which first of all, is something that they've been given by the elders, the male elders. And that interpretation is, of course, used to oppress them and to keep them silent and obedient.

[00:26:16] Kendra And I think that's something that comes around and around again, is that these women of faith are making their own decisions. And they might not make the same decisions that we as readers might make, but it's their right to make their decision within the context of their own story. And I really, I found it very thought-provoking to kind of go along that thought journey with them, to see the different conversations about pacifism, about, you know, well, if protecting our our child. . . . If we're fighting to protect our child from something, is that actually violence? You know, in that way. And just those conversations back and forth. And I'm going to try to ask this question without giving away the ending because we don't want to do spoilers. But I found the book overall incredibly helpful, which was lovely because I feel like sometimes when we hear these stories, they just don't end well, and there isn't hope in the end. But this one, I felt—while it didn't tie up everything perfectly in a bow—it was very hopeful. And whatever happens, these women have their voice. And they have made this decision for themselves, whatever decision might be. And it guts you a little bit. But I wanted to ask you, this is based on real events. And is this an ending that you wanted to give these women as part of this fictional response? Is this hope that you wish for them that might not happen in reality? What was your own approach to this kind of ending?

[00:27:44] Miriam Yeah, in a sense, you know, I know so many women, myself included, who've left these communities, and it's so difficult. You know, that's the world that you know, and it's not all bad. They're the people that you love. Maybe also fear or hate or whatever it is. I mean, it's a world that you know, and it's very, very difficult to leave because when you leave, it's quite impossible to go back. You know, generally one would be. . . . I was excommunicated. And, you know, the people that I know who have left the communities, in a painful way, have also been. And on the one hand, yes, I think, yes, free yourself! Leave. Take control. And it's kind of a fantasy, you know. But the thing is a very paternalistic thing to just even think, let alone kind of walk into one of these communities and say, you know, you're not living the way you should be living. You're not emancipated women. You're not free women. You're brainwashed. And you need to live the way I live, for instance, you know, in a secular fashion. You know, get educated, all of these things. That's incredibly arrogant and paternalistic to even think that. So I wouldn't say that, you know, this is what I think those women should do. But on the other hand, I do know through the Mennonite grapevine that a lot of the women who are from that community and from other communities where similar things are going on—I mean, the rates of domestic violence and sexual violence is very, very high—are leaving. And it's so painful, but they're leaving. And there are communities all over the place, you know, where the ones on the outside, the ones already left are helping the ones who are leaving. Some of the women involved actually are being granted asylum, at least here in Canada. And I don't know about the US because exactly because of these circumstances in these colonies. That's amazing to me, you know, to get asylum. And part of it is because they're self-policed, and they have nowhere to go, and they have no one to talk to, and they have no way of dealing with any of the crimes that happen to them. I realize that I'm not really answering your question, but it's a kind of a "yes or no" answer. You know, I wouldn't want to presume to say that this is the only way of dealing with or approaching these kinds of things. I mean, the most important thing, a real fantasy would be for there to be a collective, you know, understanding of the root causes of why these types of things happen. And if you look at, you know, the authoritarianism, the paternalism, the interpretation of the scripture, the sort of "everything sanctified by God," and then, you know, and then, of course, the systemic abuse of the women and the dehumanization of the women and the entitlement of the men. And then, BOOM. You can see exactly how these things happen. But how does that kind of understanding, you know, what do you do? Set up little workshops? And so I think the first thing that might have to happen is a discussion. Or I don't know. I don't know. But it's painful. It's terribly painful. The whole idea. I mean, you know, thinking about the women who are trapped in these communities, thinking about the women who I think may be trapped in these communities, who don't they themselves feel like they're trapped in these communities. You know, it's complex. When I first started writing the book or first started thinking about the book, I thought, "Oh yeah, you know, I'm going to have this big revenge thing. You know, the women just go crazy on these guys." You know, whatever. I mean, that was stupid. You know, that was like a completely stupid, emotional response. And this was right after I'd heard about the rapes. You know, because that's not what would happen. And that's not what should happen. You know, violence creates more violence. And so does revenge. And it just didn't make any sense, given the context of community.

[00:31:16] Kendra And I feel like their decisions and the discussions that they make, as you've been talking about, definitely fit for what they would decide. They are essentially making the decision, and I think that's so important for—circling back to the title, WOMEN TALKING—the freedom to make your own decisions. Not having someone come in and say you have to live this way. But they're making their own choices. And I think that really fits. As we mentioned, this is your fictional response to real events. Has there been any other responses in arts or maybe pieces written by other Mennonites?

[00:31:52] Miriam There have been so many pieces written by Mennonites about what happened in Bolivia and what continues to happen, apparently. The rumor is that the attacks, the rapes, are still happening even though the original perpetrators, the alleged perpetrators, are behind bars and in Santa Cruz. So it's very confusing. It's hard to get a lot of the facts because, of course, outsiders are not welcome. And people aren't talking about it. And you know, the women. The women didn't testify. Men testified on their behalf, their fathers, their brothers, you know, when it finally did go to trial. And so I know again, through this Mennonite grapevine, you know, when I do readings all over the place and travel, there are almost always at every single one, you know, some Mennonites who are there who know about the story. Some of them who have details, you know, maybe about a sister or an aunt or a cousin who managed to leave. Either left alone, or with her kids, or whether her family, because there would be a lot of husbands and fathers who want to leave as well. Yeah. So, you know, there are little stories coming out here and there. But then there are also stories of, you know, the women who now, after all of these years, women from the community who were young when they were attacked, the victims of these rapes who are saying, No, no, no, we want the men back now. Let them go. They need to come home now, essentially, to be able to forgive them. The pressure to forgive in order to be allowed, welcomed, you know, received into heaven, of course, is very, very strong. And as ludicrous and ridiculous as that sounds to so many of us, that is a very, very strong, strong motivation for a lot of these people on these types of colonies. So yeah, there are different things are happening. But essentially, what remains the same is that these Mennonite colonies, the closed colonies, what they'll do is when there's too much heat—if you want to call it from the outside world—and pressure or internally, you know, we'll sort of pack up and move to a place that's even more remote. So this is the history of the Mennonites, just kind of migration, this kind of constant movement to a place where they're given religious freedom by governments saying, "We'll let you do your own thing. You know, you'll farm. You'll contribute to the economy. You'll stay out of trouble. And you'll just sort of exist out there in the middle of nowhere, not cause any trouble. And you can educate your kids or not. We don't care what you do. Just farm and occupy this space. Populate this country or whatever it is". A lot of these governments are complicit and responsible as well. And the Mennonite colonies, ultra-conservative colonies, will go to where they can get this kind of deal.

[00:34:34] Autumn I think that's such a thoughtful response to everything that you talk about in your book, which is a lot to think about. You know, we're still thinking about it over here, and I'm sure that we can spend a lot more time just unpacking everything that's in this this novel. But, Kendra and I wanted to ask you before we let you go. We're always interested in finding new, Canadian writers because for some reason over here in the States, they're really hard to identify. So who are some Canadian women writers that you would recommend to our listeners? And these can be newer ones or older ones or even just your favorites?

[00:35:19] Miriam Well, have you heard of Margaret Atwood? Just kidding.

[00:35:21] Autumn Who hasn't?

[00:35:21] Kendra Isn't she American?!

[00:35:21] Miriam She will soon be claimed by Americans. Yeah. But I'm thinking of one in particular. Her name is Nicole Brossard, and she's from New Brunswick. She's older. I mean, I think she's in her 70s. She just writes beautifully. She's really kind of chronically under the radar, as they say. People here know about it, but not in the mainstream, really. So she's somebody I would really recommend. Feminist poet, novelist, essayist. Joan Thomas is a writer, actually, from Winnipeg, my not hometown, because my hometown was a Mennonite community. But Winnipeg was where I spent most of my adult life. She's recently written a book called FIVE WIVES. She is a beautiful writer. You know, Marina Endicott, Lynn Coady. These are other Canadian writers.

[00:36:27] Kendra We recently featured Tracey Lindbergh on the podcast.

[00:36:32] Miriam Okay, yeah. Amazing writer.

[00:36:34] Kendra And we were we were at Book Expo, and a Canadian publisher told us the dismal stats about how the books published in Canada, only what was it? Between 20 and 30 percent are actually Canadian.

[00:36:48] Miriam But yes, I know! It's so hard. I mean, you know, the rest of the world. I mean, you know, Canada is kind of the sort of like, What? Is that really there? Is it really a place? I think it's kind of overlooked. You know, which is okay. It's kind of interesting to be in a place that's overlooked. But that doesn't mean that there's not a lot of stuff happening here. But it's hard. It's so hard to get people from not here interested. But then also Canadians themselves, like say, you know, Canadians are buying mostly American stuff too.

[00:37:17] Autumn Well, thank you so much, Miriam, for coming onto the podcast and talking to us about WOMEN TALKING. We really enjoyed getting to chat with you about it because we've talked about it so much amongst ourselves. So thank you so much.

[00:37:31] Miriam You're so welcome. And I really, really appreciate you guys talking to me and your enthusiasm for the book and your comments and your smart, smart questions and everything. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

[00:37:49] Kendra We'd like to thank Miriam Toews for talking to us about her novel, WOMEN TALKING, which is out now from Bloomsbury. You can find Miriam on her publisher's website, bloomsbury.com. And of course, all of Miriam's information will be linked in our show notes.

[00:38:02] Autumn We'd also like to say a special thank you to our patrons, whose support makes this podcast possible. You can find Reading Women at readingwomenpodcast.com and on Instagram and Twitter (@theReadingWomen). You can find Kendra (@kdwinchester) and me (@autumnprivett). Thank you all so much for listening. And we'll talk to you soon.