First Session, 42nd Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES (HANSARD)

Monday, March 22, 2021 Afernoon Sitting Issue No. 37

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 1499-2175 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC

First Session, 42nd Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Raj Chouhan

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education and Skills Training...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries...... Hon. Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens’ Services...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Low Carbon Innovation ...... Hon. , QC Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Minister of Health and Minister Responsible for Francophone Afairs...... Hon. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. , QC Minister of Jobs, Economic Recovery and Innovation...... Hon. Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Minister of Municipal Afairs ...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Arts, Culture and Sport ...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon. Minister of State for Infrastructure ...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... Leader of the Tird Party ...... Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel...... Seunghee Suzie Seo Clerk Assistant, Parliamentary Services...... Artour Sogomonian Clerk of Committees...... Jennifer Arril Clerk Assistant, Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Senior Research Analyst...... Karan Riarh Acting Sergeant-at-Arms...... Greg Nelson ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Alexis, Pam (BC NDP) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Abbotsford-Mission...... Anderson, Brittny (BC NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Abbotsford South...... Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal Party)...... Penticton Abbotsford West...... Michael de Jong, QC Babchuk, Michele (BC NDP)...... North Island Boundary-Similkameen...... Bailey, Brenda (BC NDP)...... Vancouver–False Creek Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Hon. Anne Kang Bains, Hon. Harry (BC NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Burnaby-Edmonds...... Hon. Raj Chouhan Banman, Bruce (BC Liberal Party) ...... Abbotsford South Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Beare, Hon. Lisa (BC NDP) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Burnaby North ...... Begg, Garry (BC NDP)...... Surrey-Guildford Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal Party) ...... Peace River South Cariboo North...... Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal Party)...... Prince George–Valemount Chilliwack ...... Brar, Jagrup (BC NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack-Kent ...... Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal Party) ...... Surrey South Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Chandra Herbert, Spencer (BC NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Chant, Susie (BC NDP) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Coquitlam-Maillardville ...... Hon. Selina Robinson Chen, Hon. Katrina (BC NDP) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Courtenay-Comox...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Chouhan, Hon. Raj (BC NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Cowichan Valley ...... Sonia Furstenau Chow, Hon. George (BC NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fraserview Delta North...... Hon. Ravi Kahlon Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal Party)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Delta South ...... Conroy, Hon. Katrine (BC NDP)...... Kootenay West Esquimalt-Metchosin ...... Hon. Mitzi Dean Coulter, Dan (BC NDP) ...... Chilliwack Fraser-Nicola ...... Cullen, Hon. Nathan (BC NDP) ...... Stikine Kamloops–North Tompson ...... Davies, Dan (BC Liberal Party)...... Peace River North Kamloops–South Tompson...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal Party)...... Abbotsford West Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Norm Letnick Dean, Hon. Mitzi (BC NDP) ...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Kelowna-Mission ...... Renee Merrifeld D’Eith, Bob (BC NDP) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Kelowna West ...... Dix, Hon. Adrian (BC NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kootenay East...... Doerkson, Lorne (BC Liberal Party) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Kootenay West...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Donnelly, Fin (BC NDP) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Langford–Juan de Fuca ...... Hon. John Horgan Dykeman, Megan (BC NDP)...... Langley East Langley ...... Andrew Mercier Eby, Hon. David, QC (BC NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Langley East...... Elmore, Mable (BC NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington Maple Ridge–Mission...... Bob D’Eith Farnworth, Hon. Mike (BC NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Hon. Lisa Beare Fleming, Hon. Rob (BC NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Mid Island–Pacifc Rim...... Hon. Josie Osborne Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Nanaimo...... Hon. Sheila Malcolmson Glumac, Rick (BC NDP) ...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Greene, Kelly (BC NDP) ...... Richmond-Steveston Nechako Lakes...... Halford, Trevor (BC Liberal Party)...... Surrey–White Rock Nelson-Creston ...... Heyman, Hon. George (BC NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fairview New Westminster...... Hon. Jennifer Whiteside Horgan, Hon. John (BC NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca North Coast ...... Kahlon, Hon. Ravi (BC NDP) ...... Delta North North Island...... Kang, Hon. Anne (BC NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Bowinn Ma Kirkpatrick, Karin (BC Liberal Party)...... West Vancouver–Capilano North Vancouver–Seymour...... Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal Party)...... Shuswap Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Murray Rankin, QC Lee, Michael (BC Liberal Party)...... Vancouver-Langara Parksville-Qualicum...... Adam Walker Leonard, Ronna-Rae (BC NDP)...... Courtenay-Comox Peace River North ...... Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal Party) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Peace River South ...... Lore, Grace (BC NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Penticton ...... Ma, Hon. Bowinn (BC NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Port Coquitlam...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Malcolmson, Hon. Sheila (BC NDP)...... Nanaimo Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Mark, Hon. Melanie (BC NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Hon. Nicholas Simons Mercier, Andrew (BC NDP) ...... Langley Prince George–Mackenzie...... Merrifeld, Renee (BC Liberal Party)...... Kelowna-Mission Prince George–Valemount ...... Shirley Bond Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal Party) ...... Kamloops–North Tompson Richmond North Centre...... Morris, Mike (BC Liberal Party) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Richmond-Queensborough...... Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal Party)...... Cariboo North Richmond South Centre ...... Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands Richmond-Steveston ...... Osborne, Hon. Josie (BC NDP)...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Saanich North and the Islands ...... Paddon, Kelli (BC NDP) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Saanich South ...... Hon. Lana Popham Paton, Ian (BC Liberal Party) ...... Delta South Shuswap...... Popham, Hon. Lana (BC NDP)...... Saanich South Skeena...... Ralston, Hon. Bruce, QC (BC NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Stikine...... Hon. Nathan Cullen Rankin, Hon. Murray, QC (BC NDP) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Rice, Jennifer (BC NDP) ...... North Coast Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Robinson, Hon. Selina (BC NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey–Green Timbers...... Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal Party)...... Skeena Surrey-Guildford...... Routledge, Janet (BC NDP) ...... Burnaby North Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Routley, Doug (BC NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Panorama ...... Russell, Roly (BC NDP)...... Boundary-Similkameen Surrey South ...... Rustad, John (BC Liberal Party)...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Whalley ...... Hon. Bruce Ralston, QC Sandhu, Harwinder (BC NDP) ...... Vernon-Monashee Surrey–White Rock ...... Sharma, Niki (BC NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. George Heyman Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal Party)...... Kootenay East Vancouver–False Creek...... Simons, Hon. Nicholas (BC NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Fraserview...... Hon. George Chow Sims, Jinny (BC NDP) ...... Surrey-Panorama Vancouver-Hastings ...... Singh, Aman (BC NDP) ...... Richmond-Queensborough Vancouver-Kensington...... Singh, Rachna (BC NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Kingsway...... Hon. Adrian Dix Starchuk, Mike (BC NDP) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Vancouver-Langara...... Michael Lee Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal Party) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Hon. Melanie Mark Stone, Todd (BC Liberal Party) ...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver–Point Grey ...... Hon. David Eby, QC Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal Party) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Quilchena...... , QC Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal Party)...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Walker, Adam (BC NDP)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vernon-Monashee ...... Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal Party) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Whiteside, Hon. Jennifer (BC NDP) ...... New Westminster Victoria–Swan Lake...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal Party)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano...... Yao, Henry (BC NDP) ...... Richmond South Centre West Vancouver–Sea to Sky......

Party Standings: BC NDP 57; BC Liberal Party 28; BC Green Party 2

CONTENTS

Monday, March 22, 2021 Afernoon Sitting Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 913

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 913 Wild salmon protection and revitalization F. Donnelly International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination T. Wat Covenant House B. Bailey Women of Distinction Awards S. Cadieux Kidney donation and transplantation M. Starchuk Italian community in Kelowna R. Merrifeld

Speaker’s Statement ...... 915 Interjections during hybrid and virtual proceedings

Oral Questions...... 916 COVID-19 vaccination and restrictions in seniors care facilities S. Bond Hon. A. Dix COVID-19 rapid testing program for long-term-care facilities R. Merrifeld Hon. A. Dix Data collection on long-term COVID-19 cases and support for patients S. Furstenau Hon. A. Dix COVID-19 safety plans in schools S. Furstenau Hon. A. Dix Child care facilities and spaces K. Kirkpatrick Hon. K. Chen T. Stone J. Tegart

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills ...... 921 Bill 10 — Supply Act (No. 1), 2021 (continued) D. Clovechok S. Furstenau M. de Jong P. Milobar T. Stone Hon. S. Robinson

Tird Reading of Bills ...... 937 Bill 4 — Firearm Violence Prevention Act

Committee of the Whole House...... 937 Bill 5 — Insurance Corporation Amendment Act, 2021 (continued) M. Lee Hon. M. Farnworth

Second Reading of Bills ...... 942 Bill 10 — Supply Act (No. 1), 2021 (continued) Hon. S. Robinson

913

MONDAY, MARCH 22, 2021 cial sector, labour, the sport and recreation sector, non- proft organizations, community groups, scientists, Te House met at 1:33 p.m. researchers, innovative businesses and others to develop a shared action plan to put British Columbia on a clear path- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] way to recovering and revitalizing wild salmon. With a concerted efort, enough resources and a shared Routine Business desire to see wild salmon populations rebound, these resi- lient animals will once again return to B.C.’s watersheds. Introductions by Members INTERNATIONAL DAY FOR THE H. Sandhu: Today I would like to wish happy belated ELIMINATION OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION birthday to one of my amazing constituents, Dorothy Chura. Dora celebrated her 105th birthday on March 16. T. Wat: Across the world and here in British Columbia, Tis birthday was so special for Dora and her family, as we honour, recognize and commit to the International Day Dora is believed to be B.C.’s oldest COVID-19 survivor. for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. Dora has survived two global pandemics and lived Tis past year has been one of hardship and refection through multiple world wars. on racial injustice and discrimination for many. Racism I have a fond memory of Dora when I used to visit her and bigotry must be opposed every day. Today we take the as a community nurse. Dora would always save an orange time to acknowledge the progress that has been made, yet or other snacks for us nurses. our mission to eliminate racism, prejudice and hate here May I please ask all the members of this House to wish in British Columbia and around the world is far from over. Dora a very happy belated birthday and to congratulate Tere are steps everyone in this province must take to fur- her for her remarkable recovery from COVID-19. ther commit to equity and acceptance in British Columbia. [1:35 p.m.] Te ongoing COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted the disturbing anti-Asian racism and discrimination that hap- Statements pens in every corner of B.C., evidenced by the troubling (Standing Order 25B) 717 percent increase in anti-Asian hate crimes in Vancou- ver alone. Racial discrimination has no place in B.C. We WILD SALMON PROTECTION must ensure that our communities are safe for all. AND REVITALIZATION Every citizen of B.C. has a moral obligation and a civil responsibility to stop the spread of racial stereotypes, false F. Donnelly: In November of last year, I was appointed information, sinophobic fear-mongering and scapegoating Parliamentary Secretary for Fisheries and Aquaculture. that we have seen in this province throughout the pan- Te Premier asked me to develop new strategies to protect demic. Tis rise in racial discrimination is unacceptable, and revitalize B.C.’s wild salmon populations, including and we must all work towards eliminating bigotry within working with the federal government to double the size of our communities. We must all work together. We must all the B.C. salmon restoration and innovation fund. remain deeply committed to the elimination of racial dis- He asked me to work with the Minister of Environment crimination on this day and every day. to step up protection of fsh habitat and B.C.’s watersheds Together, through community support, tolerance and through our biodiversity strategy and the new watershed acceptance, every British Columbian can feel safe and security strategy and fund. accepted in the province regardless of race or ethnicity. He asked that I support the Minister of State for Lands and Natural Resource Operations to develop a new pro- COVENANT HOUSE vincial coastal marine strategy in partnership with First Nations and federal and local governments to better pro- B. Bailey: It was a number of years ago that I met Jesse. tect coastal habitat while growing coastal economies. He’d just fnished high school a year early at age 16. Jesse He asked that I represent the province as the federal and his mom were new Canadians, having been in Canada government transitions B.C.’s salmon-farming industry to for less than a year. Tey fed violence in their home coun- closed-containment technology. try to build a better life in B.C. Tere are many challenges facing B.C.’s fsheries, sea- Unfortunately, Jesse’s mom sufered from severe mental food and wild salmon, but the opportunities are just as illness related to the trauma she’d experienced and was great. Te road ahead won’t be easy. Wild salmon are in unable to care for Jesse, who ended up, a week afer gradu- trouble. Many populations have been declining for some ation, alone, broke and on the streets. time now. But it’s not too late. Over the coming months, I will continue to meet with Mr. Speaker: Member. Member, can you hold for a First Nations, federal and local governments, the commer- 914 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021 second? Your mike is very staticky. We’re trying to see if it honoured to be nominated and recognized for my own can be fxed. achievements. [1:40 p.m.] Tat’s why today in this House, I want to recognize and tell you about the seven remarkable women from Surrey B. Bailey: Tank you, Mr. Speaker. who are among the fnalists for awards this year. Tey are Dr. Balbir Gurm, who is a professor for Kwan- [Interruption.] tlen Polytechnic University’s faculty of health and founder and chair of the Network to Eliminate Violence in Rela- Mr. Speaker: Okay. Continue, Member. tionships; Krista Milne, a member of the Self-Advocates of Semiahmoo and of the Self Advocate Leadership Net- B. Bailey: I apologize for the noise, my colleagues. work; Julia Chung, co-founder and CEO of Admin Slayer When I met Jesse, he’d been arrested for shoplifing, and Spring Plans; Gurleen Brar, chairperson of the Youth and it was so heartbreaking. He had stolen basic food- Transforming Society; Bremiella De Guzman, facilitator, stufs and deodorant. I was a law student working in the social worker and ambassador for Special Olympics British volunteer LSLAP clinic at UBC, and we took his case. Columbia, B.C. Centre for Ability, and Anxiety Canada; Fortunately, the judge agreed to diversion, and Jesse was Rochelle Prasad, CEO and executive director of SPARK directed to resources, one of which I’d like to speak of Foundation; and Shakti Ramkumar, director of commu- now: Covenant House. nications and policy at Student Energy. Covenant House got Jesse of the streets and into safety. Congratulations, ladies. You are all deserving of this I shudder to think what would have happened to this recognition. Tank you for all you do to bring energy, bright, kind, gentle young man had he not found the sup- innovation, compassion and service to our community. port an outstanding organization was able to provide — Good luck to you all. Take a moment to refect on your not just the basics of food and shelter, of extreme import- achievements as others look to celebrate you. ance, but also a sense of community. He was able to create a résumé, and through contacts KIDNEY DONATION I was able to share with him and his counsellor, Jesse got AND TRANSPLANTATION a job as a video game tester at one of our local studios in Vancouver. He was eventually able to get his own apart- M. Starchuk: I’m honoured today to stand in the ment and began to build his life, which later included House and speak about the living organ donation pro- studying computer science at UBC. gram, which saves lives by reducing the wait time for Te youth who turn to Covenant House in Vancouver patients who need an organ. are extremely vulnerable. Tis year keeping them safe has [1:45 p.m.] taken on a new level of urgency. Te street outreach team However, the two-minute speech I had prepared two connected 551 individual youth, and 367 youth found days ago about a kidney that a good friend of mine, Curtis safety and stability during their crisis time. Every day an Meyer, needed changed immensely yesterday. average of over 100 youth found support at Covenant I’ve known Curtis for 30 years. My original ask was to House Vancouver. Te kitchen staf lovingly prepared and have people register for the living donor program at St. served more than 1,750 meals every week, and 219 youth Paul’s and see if we could fnd a match for Curtis, whose found and maintained employment. frst transplant from his wife Shelley began to fail in I ask that members of this House join me in applauding 2018. My original speech was going to explain my jour- the incredible work of Covenant House for the youth of ney as I tried to become a living kidney donor. While I B.C. was not successful, I got the ultimate medical checkup and found out my heart, my lungs and other organs were WOMEN OF DISTINCTION AWARDS in pretty good shape. When a miracle occurs, you must talk about the mir- S. Cadieux: Te 2021 YWCA Women of Distinction acle. Yesterday afernoon at two o’clock, Curtis was notifed Awards will be held on Monday, June 7. Te award aims that there was a viable kidney ready for transplant. At fve to honour inspiring women and their achievements in a o’clock, Curtis was in surgery, and when I spoke to Shelley variety of categories, including arts, culture and design; at 8:30 last night, the surgeon claimed it was a success. community champion; entrepreneurship and innovation; Until yesterday, Curtis was hooked up for eight hours health and wellness; research, the sciences and technology. a day on peritoneal dialysis. He experienced debilitating Now, way, way, way back in 1995, I was nominated for symptoms such as vision, nausea, joint pain, fatigue and one of these. I didn’t win, and frankly, when I saw the immune suppression. Although Curtis received his kidney other young women in my category, I was in awe. Te from a deceased donor, the last few years on dialysis were winner was absolutely exceptional. Regardless, I was very incredibly strenuous on his body. My closing comments were to contact St. Paul’s at Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 915

604-806-9027 if you wish to help out someone. Tose Speaker’s Statement comments remain the same. Although Curtis does not need a kidney anymore, there are countless people like INTERJECTIONS DURING him who do. I urge all British Columbians to register with HYBRID AND VIRTUAL PROCEEDINGS the B.C. Transplant living donor kidney program and become a living donor. Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, before we begin this afer- I now ask you to join me in refection on the person who noon, I would like to make a few remarks about members has passed on and provided a new life to someone they with remote participation in hybrid proceedings. never met. [1:50 p.m.] I also ask you to join me by sending your thoughts and I draw members’ attention to the sessional order adop- prayers to my friend Curtis as he recovers from this life- ted on March 1, 2021, which outlines how this House will altering surgery. regulate its proceedings, integrating the use of video con- ferencing technology with the physical presence of mem- ITALIAN COMMUNITY IN KELOWNA bers in the chamber and therefore enabling hybrid pro- ceedings. R. Merrifeld: March 22 marks a special day in Kelowna Te intention of the sessional order is to aford all mem- history. It was the day that the Kelowna Canadian Italian bers with the means to fulfl their parliamentary functions Club was founded back in 1966 by 21 proud members. and to safeguard the rights, privileges and immunities of Te Kelowna Canadian Italian Club is the social and individual members, regardless of their physical location. cultural centre of the Italian community in Kelowna. Tey Tis House requires the cooperation of members in com- are all good friends, and they carry on our cultural tra- plying with the procedures in place to ensure equal oppor- ditions by promoting the Italian language and culture tunity for all members to listen to and participate in pro- through food, music and wine. Tose of us that are bene- ceedings. factors of their incredible dances are certainly grateful. But I have come to learn that last week, during oral question they are so much more. period, some members participating remotely were Tey are also a service club, giving back to the com- unmuting their microphones to speak, even though they munity through the unselfsh dedication of their members. had not been recognized by the Chair. Although inter- An example of this giving back is found in how they chose jections are a recognized part of oral question period in to celebrate their 55th anniversary. To close of the online the chamber, interjections made by members participating celebration, there was a public unveiling of their latest pro- remotely have the efect of preventing all other members ject, Il Nostro Lascito. Tis video series documents the participating remotely from hearing the proceedings tak- experiences of Italian immigrants in the Central ing place in the House, therefore putting them at a serious Okanagan as well as the legacy that they have created. disadvantage. I quote Gord Hotchkiss: “Since 1883, Italians have been As you all know, you have the right to interject. Mem- instrumental in building the foundations of the home we bers on your behalf here in the House interject very reg- know today. Whether it’s agriculture, the wine industry, ularly and very efciently. I’m sure they will continue to tourism, sports or even the very building of Kelowna’s do it. However, we encourage all of you to make sure that landmarks, Italians have been there and done that.” Te you follow the proceedings that are outlined in the ses- Italian handiwork is seen in Kelowna in the concrete statue sional order. of the Ogopogo, which was built by Orsi and Sons Con- As an established practice of hybrid proceedings, mem- tracting. bers must only unmute their microphones when they have Hotchkiss goes on to say: “We hope this series is more been recognized by the Chair. Any contravention to this than just a simple documenting of Italian achievement. It’s practice is, in essence, akin to standing to interrupt a also the story of fnding acceptance in a new home and member who has the foor in the chamber. To ensure full the bridging of cultures. As such, it is a great example of and equal participation, I caution all members that they inclusivity and the celebration of ethnic diversity.” should only unmute their microphones to participate in Please join me in celebrating with the Kelowna Cana- proceedings once they have been recognized by the Chair. dian Italian Club but also all three of the Kelowna ridings Going forward, the Chair will not hesitate to intervene, as who are the benefciary of the club’s incredible contribu- required. tion to our culture and heritage. I also remind members that as provided for in section 12 of the sessional order, the Speaker is empowered to intervene on any matter of decorum, including by muting a member’s microphone and excluding members from the hybrid sitting in cases of serious misconduct. However, I expect that with the guidance provided today, further intervention will not be necessary. 916 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021

I’m hopeful that members appreciate the spirit and needs to change the visitation rules to protect the mental intent of the sessional order, with the understanding that health of residents. Isobel Mackenzie says: “Really, we its implementation is to ensure the participation of all should be able to return to in-room visits.” Te Centre for members during a time of signifcant public health con- Disease Control has ofered new guidelines, as have many cerns. I appreciate the opportunity to work together to other jurisdictions. continue the important work of the Legislative Assembly Our most vulnerable population has sufered tremend- in these unprecedented circumstances. ously over the last year. No one is asking for long-term- Tank you, Members, for your attention and coopera- care homes to be thrown wide open. Families just want tion. and need to see their loved ones. As Clif Jones, whose mother-in-law is in a care home, said: “I call them inmates Oral Questions because we feel that they are in confnement.” When, specifcally, will families in British Columbia COVID-19 VACCINATION who have loved ones in long-term care receive the prom- AND RESTRICTIONS IN ised fexibility that the Premier made? SENIORS CARE FACILITIES Hon. A. Dix: Tat experience, the experience of fam- S. Bond: Te Premier has said that British Columbi- ilies who have dealt with the pandemic in long-term ans can expect more fexibility as they are vaccinated, care, and all of its impacts…. Tey know its signifcance but those who are living in seniors care, those who have to both the physical and the mental health of residents been vaccinated, are still experiencing the stress of of long-term care, of workers in long-term care and of loneliness, and there is signifcant concern about their family members, the people and friends of people living mental wellness. in long-term care. Anna van Blankenstein lives in a long-term-care facility. It’s why British Columbia gave such priority to vac- She’s been vaccinated. Her husband, who lives in the same cination in long-term care, a vaccination that has been facility, has had COVID and received his frst vaccine, but extraordinarily successful and well implemented by our she gets one 30-minute visit a month with him. “Te vis- teams of health care workers. So 96 percent of our workers, it is grim. I have to be masked. My husband and I can- 95 percent of our residents have received their frst-dose not reach out for one another. Tere is a chaperone sitting vaccinations from COVID-19. In addition, thousands of about 14 feet away who can overhear everything we say, essential visitors have also been immunized in order to and she’s there to prevent any kind of infraction.” assist with their role in long-term care. When will seniors see the fexibility the Premier has I told the member, I think, specifcally — today is promised? March 22 — that the changes will be announced before the end of March, meaning in the next eight days. It’s Hon. A. Dix: Tank you to the Leader of the Opposition our hope that these changes will return some normalcy for her question — one she knows that I’m very interested in long-term care. in and have been working on, the provincial health ofcer I agree with her. It can’t be fully back to normal. Obvi- as well. As we proceeded with our vaccination plan, we ously, the provincial health ofcer, the Ministry of Health, made it clear that changes were coming with respect to vis- myself and many, many other people want to see this itation in long-term care and in terms of activity in long- change happen. I know the Leader of the Opposition does. term care. I expect to be briefng her on it within the next few days — [1:55 p.m.] the new changes that will be put into efect to allow more Some of those changes have already taken place with- visits in long-term care. in long-term-care facilities. We will be announcing, before the end of March, the changes to visitation in COVID-19 RAPID TESTING PROGRAM long-term care. FOR LONG-TERM-CARE FACILITIES

Mr. Speaker: Te Leader of the Ofcial Opposition on R. Merrifeld: As seniors wait for the Minister of a supplemental. Health’s promised fexibility, the demand for increased, widespread rapid testing in care homes is increasing. S. Bond: Tank you very much to the Health Minister. While residents remain segregated, staf still go home and I know that I have expressed my thanks to him on a num- are a part of their community. ber of occasions for the number of issues that he’s tackling. Not all staf are choosing to vaccinate, which is their But the issue of essential visitors has been one that families right, but it remains bafing as to why the Premier won’t across British Columbia have been grappling with for provide seniors with an extra layer of protection by months now. implementing widespread rapid testing in long-term- Te seniors advocate has been clear that the province care homes. Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 917

Will the Premier do the right thing and ensure long- respect to the hon. member or others, I think that is the term-care homes have all the rapid tests that they need to best approach to deal with the issue of testing in British protect residents? Columbia. We are using rapid testing more, as we should. We are continuing to depend on testing in our response to Hon. A. Dix: With respect to visitation in long-term the pandemic in British Columbia. care, I think I just answered that question. Seniors can I think the member would agree that the impact of the expect to see changes, residents in long-term care can measures we’ve taken in long-term care, all of the meas- expect to see changes, within the week. ures we’ve taken in long-term care — the single-site order, A couple of weeks ago we also announced changes to the infection prevention — have meant that we have had our approach to rapid testing. Te member will know that lower levels of infection than almost any other equivalent rapid testing has been used in long-term care. But the key jurisdiction in North America. Tat does not mean that we testing, the gold-standard testing that we would all expect are happy or satisfed or anything else. It means that our long-term-care residents to receive, the PCR testing, has public health ofcials have been doing their absolute best been in place for some time. in doing a good job. I would note to the member that priority was given Can we do better? Absolutely. We’re going to continue to to vaccination in long-term care — I think something follow the guidance of public health ofcials with respect that she agrees with and everyone agrees with. Te con- to testing. sequence of that is there for all to see. As of today, there are two long-term-care outbreaks in British Columbia act- DATA COLLECTION ON ive. Tere were 42 on January 15. Tat shows the efective- LONG-TERM COVID-19 CASES ness of those measures and why we are now able to pro- AND SUPPORT FOR PATIENTS ceed with opening up long-term care to more visits. [2:00 p.m.] S. Furstenau: A few weeks ago I asked the Minister of Health if we had any information about long-haul COV- R. Merrifeld: Well, I don’t know if the Minister of ID rates in British Columbia and, if so, where the data was Health heard me. I’m not just asking for some rapid test- being posted for the public. Te minister said information ing; I’m asking for widespread rapid testing. about infections and recoveries is shared daily. You see, headlines such as “Outbreak at Kelowna Long- Subsequent follow up with Dr. Henry and the BCCDC Term Home Despite ‘High Uptake’ of Immunizations” by the press has clarifed that we currently have no idea serve as a warning. Seniors have been vaccinated. But the what proportion of patients continue to experience symp- virus is still fnding its way into care homes. Keeping our toms, months afer being diagnosed. Other jurisdictions seniors in virtual lockdown is not the way forward, espe- who are tracking and reporting this data have found that cially when some simple steps the government could take at least 10 percent, if not closer to 30 percent, of COVID to protect them are available. patients end up developing chronic symptoms. Te B.C. Care Providers have been clear: “We have been With the rolling average of over 500 — and last week talking about the need for some sort of mechanism to rising — British Columbians testing positive every day, ensure that unvaccinated workers do not pose a risk to res- this is a huge blind spot. We could end up with tens of idents. Tis is an area that is still weak, and we need to thousands of people needing long-term support. strengthen it.” My question is to the Minister of Health. It is not accur- Again to the Premier, will he do the right thing to pro- ate to classify people as recovered if the virus has caused tect seniors and increase rapid testing, widespread, at them to experience chronic physical or neurological long-term-care homes? symptoms. When, specifcally, can British Columbians expect government to start reporting on rates of long-haul Hon. A. Dix: Te reports in other jurisdictions will COVID, and what policy work is being done to ensure show what happens when politicians, rather than people people with long COVID will get the supports they need? who are epidemiologists and involved in public health, make decisions about testing programs. Decisions are Hon. A. Dix: Every case in British Columbia is import- made to overturn the advice of those public health of- ant. Every case is followed, and support is provided. We’ve cials, and the consequences are negative. We’ve seen that put in place a number of clinics across British Columbia in other jurisdictions in Canada. for people dealing with continuing conditions of COV- Here in British Columbia, when rapid testing came to ID-19. our province, it was to be delivered on the advice of public When we refer to people as having their condition health ofcials. Tey have done their appropriate job using resolved, what we mean is that they’re no longer infectious. the gold-standard PCR tests, especially in long-term care, Tis has been repeated again and again and again and and using rapid tests in an expansive way, as required. again by Dr. Henry and myself. Tat is the meaning of that I followed their advice on this question, and with great term, when we use that term “recovered.” 918 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021

I would say to people that COVID-19 is a vicious virus. subject — that when we refer to people having discontin- It doesn’t argue with us. It can have profound efects, ued isolation, it doesn’t mean that the efects of COVID-19 whether you’re 25 or 85. We know who has the most severe are over for a person, particularly people who are dealing efects; that’s ofen people with other medical conditions with other medical conditions. and our elders. Tis has been said from the beginning. To suggest in any [2:05 p.m.] way, as the member just did, that that means that we are We know that the ongoing efect of this virus can be not concerned about it is just wrong. To say that public profound. We also know that the virus has only been health ofcials or medical health ofcers aren’t concerned around for a little more than a year. We continue to work about it, because we provide this information, is just incor- with and study it extensively. Te number of studies that rect. I just wanted to put that clearly and on the record. are produced every day on this subject, and the work done Tis is one of the most challenging times we face in in British Columbia, is comprehensive. our COVID-19 pandemic. We have an immunization I would say to the member that I’m going to continue, as campaign that I think is delivering in an efective way, I said in the answer to the previous question, to rely on our across the province, based on the amount of vaccine we public health ofcials to ensure that information is avail- have. As of today, for example, in the Pfzer vaccine, able, particularly for people at this time of high vulnerabil- 440,000 doses have been delivered to health authorities, ity to COVID-19, so that everyone understands the poten- and 426,000 of them have been put in people’s arms. tial impact of this virus and everyone takes every step to Tat’s extraordinarily efective. ensure that this virus is not transmitted. We laid our vaccination strategy out in detail for the hon. member last week. We are going to continue to take Mr. Speaker: Te Leader of the Tird Party on a supple- steps, public health steps, to ensure that people are as safe mental. as possible around British Columbia. I would like to say to everybody in British Columbia COVID-19 SAFETY PLANS IN SCHOOLS that now is the time when we need to continue to follow public health orders and public health guidance in every S. Furstenau: Te Health Minister identifes that people workplace, including schools. We need to follow robust are being classifed as recovered if they’re no longer infec- public health plans and COVID-19 safety plans in every tious. I think there are a lot of people in British Columbia workplace. who feel that their ongoing struggle with symptoms and It’s more important now than ever, as we see hope on the them being lumped in as recovered is not actually captur- horizon, to ensure people are protected in a time of high ing the experience that they’re having, and they’re wonder- transmission for COVID-19. Te provincial health ofcer ing about what kinds of supports they will get from a gov- and the Ministry of Health are going to continue to deliver ernment that isn’t acknowledging them in the data and the on that agenda. reporting. I’m thankful to all British Columbians who are follow- As we know, COVID long-haul patients report a wide ing that guidance to this day and beyond. variety of symptoms, from pain to brain fog, to memory problems and insomnia, heart problems. And data from CHILD CARE FACILITIES AND SPACES other countries that are tracking long COVID indicates that it afects more women than men. K. Kirkpatrick: New child care regulations come into Te minister speaks about being as mindful as possible. efect on April 1. Tey will be responsible for the loss We saw last week, with case numbers rising and variants of thousands of child care spaces. Te changes will make of concern spreading, that there appears to be growing many providers ineligible for government funding, and risk, with students going back to classrooms next week and this will result in less spaces for parents. teachers not receiving vaccinations until April. With a few [2:10 p.m.] weeks afer that before immunity is conferred for teachers, As a provider in Surrey just told me: “As a result of this it’s hard not to be concerned about the prospect of teachers sudden change, we feel helpless and face economic ruin as making it to this point in the pandemic, only to be faced we watch our life’s savings disappear because our dream to with the potential for the infection and long COVID. develop a child care centre, with over 100 new spaces, has My question is to the Minister of Health. What adjust- turned into a nightmare.” ments is government considering in light of the rising case Will the Premier press pause, sit down and talk to these numbers and the continued call from teachers to imple- operators before they’re forced into bankruptcy? ment a comprehensive mask mandate, better distancing in classrooms and better ventilation? Hon. K. Chen: Tanks to the opposition member for this very important question. Hon. A. Dix: I would say, to be very clear to the member We need to remember that our government introduced — and we have been, again and again and again, on this the fee reduction program when we became government Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 919

in 2017 and, in 2018, introduced the child care budget ible child care to B.C. families, afer years and years of neg- with over three dozen initiatives to bring afordable, qual- lect by the previous government ignoring the child care ity, inclusive child care to B.C. families. Te fee reduction crisis. Tey had caused chaos for a lot of B.C. families, and program currently has over 90 percent of providers joining we are proud of the progress we have made. this program. It is the frst time in B.C.’s history that we’ve Again, the new policies to make sure that there is a level brought down the cost of child care for B.C. families. playing feld for all providers…. We’ve heard from a lot of Tat is why we need to continue to make sure we can current and existing providers about how they will love to bring afordable child care to more B.C. families and also see that there are accountability mechanisms for new pro- provide a level playing feld for providers that are currently viders joining our new fee reduction program. Again, over in operation, joining our fee reduction program, and also 90 percent of providers are working with us to bring the for new providers who are coming into this feld, and to be cost down for B.C. families, and we are already making able to make sure that they can set their fees at a reason- sure B.C. families are benefting from afordable child care. able amount. Tis program, again, is to ensure that we can pass the T. Stone: Notwithstanding the minister’s bluster there, savings and the fee reduction for B.C. families. We are there is a huge diference between rhetoric and action. proud of the progress that we’ve made to bring afordable Tis is the government which promised to actually deliver child care to B.C. families, afer years and years of neglect 24,000 new child care spaces in three years. To this point, of the child care crisis by the member opposite and the they’ve delivered approximately 4,000 in four years — former Liberal government. 4,000 spaces that actually have kids in them. [2:15 p.m.] Mr. Speaker: Te member for West Vancouver–Capi- Tis is a government that promised to deliver universal lano on a supplemental. $10-a-day child care. Tat promise is missing in action. Now, the latest policy choices of this government, which K. Kirkpatrick: I would like to remind the minister that take efect on April 1, are also going to serve to signifc- this government now is the previous government. Tere antly reduce the number of new spaces that come online comes a point where blaming things from prior to your and increase costs for parents. Te largest operators in the being here echoes hollow, and this is the time. province were not consulted on these signifcant changes. A new report was just released and highlighted that B.C. I’ll give another example to the minister of one major has, unlike what I just heard, some of the highest child care operator — the decision that they’re taking. Willowbrae fees in British Columbia, and that is because there are not has made the decision to not proceed at this point with enough spaces. Tis government is failing. For years, this 1,750 spaces, including 136 spaces in Maple Ridge, 160 in NDP government has promised $10-a-day daycare and Port Coquitlam, 166 in Richmond, 180 in Burnaby. more spaces. Will the Premier stop these policy changes, which will What they’re doing right now is the opposite. Parents only serve to have the efect of reducing access to new are paying more, and now providers are cancelling a num- spaces and increasing costs for parents in British Col- ber of spaces that they had on the books to open. Tis gov- umbia? ernment’s April 1 changes are directly responsible for put- ting 2,100 spaces on hold at CEFA Early Learning alone. Hon. K. Chen: I am glad that the member talked about Will the Premier pause the April 1 changes and sit down space creation. Let me remind the member opposite that with these child care providers? we have been accelerating the creation of spaces across B.C. communities, the fastest ever in B.C.’s history. Hon. K. Chen: I am proud of the progress that our gov- Let me put that in perspective. We have been creating ernment has been making on child care and making sure spaces. Again, over 20,000 spaces have been funded in 3½ we can bring afordable child care benefts to tens of thou- short years. Tat is over 4½ times more child care spaces sands of families. Again, I need to remind the member than the former B.C. Liberal government ever funded in opposite that our fee reduction program has over 90 per- their last four years in government. cent of providers joining this program and passing on the We defnitely, defnitely have more work to do to make savings to tens of thousands of B.C. families. sure more parents can return to work afer, again, years of Already, in 3½ years, we have over 36,000 families bene- the child care chaos. Tat was neglected by the previous fting from $10-a-day child care, or less. We have been government. We need to make sure…. We need to accel- accelerating the creation of spaces. We have never accel- erate the creation of spaces. We are well on target. I defn- erated the creation of spaces in B.C.’s history in this way. itely have more good news coming in the coming weeks to We’ve created over 20,000 spaces in 3½ years. make sure that every single week, every single month, we I need to remind the member opposite that we have a are creating spaces, and those spaces are coming into oper- very comprehensive child care program with over three ation across B.C. communities. dozen new initiatives to bring afordable, quality, access- Speaking of the fee reduction program, again, 90 per- 920 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021 cent of providers join in this very important program. We did was pick winners and losers in communities across need to make sure of a level playing feld for all providers, British Columbia, with a handful of federal pilot sites. whether they’re new or existing providers. Te federal funding expires on March 31. Can the Pre- mier tell parents what happens to the federal sites, and T. Stone: Well, this is beginning to sound like the NDP’s when will the province actually deliver $10-a-day daycare, housing program, where they talk about these tens of as he promised? thousands of spaces, tens of thousands of units which have been created around the province. Te only catch is there Hon. K. Chen: I hope the member opposite has heard are no people in them. Less than 4,000 new child care my previous answers that we have been delivering $10-a- spaces have actually opened up in the last four years, under day child care to over 36,000 families in this province. this government. Tat’s a terrible record. Tere are more and more families that are benefting from Jennifer Ratclife is a mother of three children, and she’s lower-cost child care. We have brought down the cost of also the owner of a child care centre in South Surrey. Jen- child care for this province and B.C. families through our nifer writes: “I have spoken to several daycare owners who three initiatives. have cancelled expansions, at Pebble Lane. I get six or sev- Again, we have dozens of new initiatives, including en calls daily from parents looking for care. It’s heartbreak- three major afordability measures: the fee reduction pro- ing having to turn them away. I fnd it greatly dishearten- gram that has 90 percent of providers joining this pro- ing that the government would do this. You are going to gram; the afordable child care beneft that has brought crush the careers of so many women.” down child care costs signifcantly for a lot of parents who Again, my question to the Premier is this. Will the Pre- are making $70,000, $80,000, that can beneft from $10-a- mier pause these changes on April 1? Will he talk to pro- day; and up to the income of $111,000, benefting a lot of viders in the child care space, operators like Jennifer, about middle-income families. We also have the prototype site the very negative impacts that this policy will have on the that is testing what universal child care can look like. parents of British Columbia? We already are getting a lot of positive reviews from families sharing that they can return to work, especially Hon. K. Chen: Let me remind the member opposite mothers who have historically struggled with child care, that we have been talking to providers across the province and that we have encouraged and supported a lot more during the past few years, since we became government. parents and women to return to the workforce. We have been talking to parents and learned about their We will continue to do the work. I hope the member struggles when the previous government neglected the opposite will take a moment to read our comprehensive child care crisis. Women were unable to return to work. child care plan that is bringing costs down for tens of thou- Tey were forced to give up their career. sands of B.C. families. So many parents were struggling with the high cost of child care, not having access to child care afer years and Mr. Speaker: Te member for Fraser-Nicola on a sup- years of neglect. We have been working hard to put togeth- plemental. er a comprehensive program, with over three dozen new initiatives to bring an afordable, quality, inclusive early J. Tegart: Parents desperately need child care spaces learning care system to all B.C. families. across British Columbia, but providers are cancelling Again, we have been talking to providers and getting thousands of new spaces because of what this two-term the feedback from existing providers about how they want NDP government is doing on April 1. to see a level playing feld. When they are joining our fee Ten-dollar-a-day child care was a central campaign reduction program, passing up to $350 in savings to par- promise four years ago, but they haven’t delivered. We now ents, those savings mean a lot to parents. Tat’s focused on have providers putting thousands of spaces on hold, and the parents. Tat $350 means that a lot of families are sure parents are paying more — fewer spaces and higher fees. that they can put better food, healthier food on the table, When will the Premier actually start delivering on his making sure they can pay for their daily expenses. $10-a-day daycare? [2:20 p.m.] We want to ensure those savings are passed to parents. Hon. K. Chen: I know B.C. families and B.C. parents Tat is why we have set the new policy to make sure there’s have been struggling with the high costs of child care. As a level playing feld for current providers and new pro- a parent with a young child myself, I know that struggle. viders who can set their fees at 70 percent as the other 70 I know what that struggle is like, as I continue to struggle percent of providers in their community. with my own child care. While it is very encouraging to hear the member oppos- J. Tegart: Four years ago the Premier made a fashy ite asking so many questions about child care, let’s remem- promise of $10-a-day daycare. He hasn’t delivered. All he ber that it was their neglect of the child care crisis that so many parents, like myself, have been really struggling with Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 921

— the cost of child care and not being able to have access ging hand up, not a one-time NDP handout. It was a pro- to the spaces that they deserve. gram that helped single parents on income and disability Tat is why I’m so proud, again, of our government assistance to get the supports they needed to overcome putting over $1.3 billion into the new investment into barriers to employment and build a better future for their afordable, quality, early learning and care services. We families. Supports included up to 12 months of funded already have funded 20,000 spaces across the province. training for demand jobs or paid work experience, transit We already have 36,000 families that have been beneft- costs to and from school, and child care costs during the ing from $10-a-day child care, with tens of thousands training and their frst year of employment. more families that have seen a reduction in their fees. At Tis program was a smash hit, welcoming over 6,000 the same time, we are building a comprehensive system. participants. As one of the thousands of participants said We are supporting early childhood educators who are of her experience: “I am really proud of myself now. I am the workforce behind the workforce to make sure they balancing school and motherhood. Without this program, get a wage enhancement. my new life would not have been possible.” Tere’s a lot more work to do, but I’m proud of the pro- Tis program is just one example of the many pro- gress we have made today. grams that we ofered British Columbians over 16 proud years — always giving them a hand up, not a one-time [End of question period.] handout. Knowing this, I am confdent that the member for Stikine will accept my challenge and retract his com- Orders of the Day ments about our government only caring about some fctitious 1 percent. Hon. M. Farnworth: I call continued second reading I could never in any good faith look my constituents debate, Bill 10. in the eye and say that I was okay giving a government like this a $13.4 billion blank cheque without any checks Mr. Speaker: Members, one more thing I want to share and balances. Tat would just not be acceptable, and nor with you. Tis morning I sent a memorandum on the dress should they have to accept that. As such, I cannot support code. Some of the members have now contacted me, ask- this bill. ing for more clarifcation. It was President Reagan who said: “Don’t be afraid to [2:25 p.m.] see what you see. We must have the courage to do what we I want to tell the members that I’ll be meeting with the know is morally right.” We all see Bill 10 for what it is, and three House leaders, hopefully in the next day or so. Ten in my discussion, I have done what is morally right and we’ll provide further clarifcation, if necessary. exposed Bill 10 for what it is not. It is nothing more than a veiled attempt at coercion by the NDP, with no moral base Second Reading of Bills that would inspire any modicum of trust. Mr. Speaker, mark my words. Just like it was in the BILL 10 — SUPPLY ACT (No. 1), 2021 ’90s, it will be the people of B.C. who will have to try and (continued) pick up the failed pieces, which are always the legacy of the NDP. D. Clovechok: Mr. Speaker, it’s great to retake my place here. As you recall, we were speaking of the lack of trust S. Furstenau: I’m glad to have the opportunity to speak and misrepresentation exhibited by this government when to this bill. We’ve heard several days of debate on this bill, it comes to Bill 10. Again, this kind of behaviour was a supply bill that gives government $13 billion to maintain the reason our previous government had to bring protec- spending until the budget is approved. tions in, in the frst place — protections and laws around What have been the overarching themes of this debate? accountability and transparency — measures, again, that We’ve heard from the government members that this is a this current NDP government are trying to circumvent typical bill that is passed in the Legislature every year, a bill with Bill 10 in front of this House today. that allows for spending on salaries, essential programs, government initiatives to continue between the time of [N. Letnick in the chair.] the budget being introduced and the time that it’s passed in the Legislature. Mostly true. Except this year, as we’ve Now, for the beneft of the member for Stikine, let’s talk heard from ofcial opposition members, this interim sup- about a little bit of history again and the government’s suc- ply bill is being brought forward before anyone in British cess, with us helping over 16 very proud years. One of Columbia has the opportunity to see this year’s budget or the many people-centred programs was the brainchild of even hear from government its intentions or vision in a former Premier Christy Clark, and that was the single-par- speech from the throne. Also true. ent employment initiative. Finally, we’ve heard that in order for the $13 billion in Tis initiative was focused on giving people a life-chan- spending to be approved, the bill has to circumvent the 922 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021

Financial Administration Act, tying the interim supply not the choices that are made in this year’s budget, afer last to this year’s budget but to last’s. Also true. Also worrying. year’s short estimates. [2:30 p.m.] Indeed, I think we should be concerned by a trend that How did we get here? A combination of a set of circum- we are seeing in this Legislature’s ability to have thorough stances and a series of choices. Yes, we are in a global pan- oversight of the budget, with a diminishing number of demic that has created a kind of upheaval and disruption weeks for estimates debate, year over year. In 2018, the beyond what many of us could have ever imagined. Tis spring budget was introduced February 20, afer a fall government made highly political choices while we have introduction of a new government and afer a budget been in the midst of this pandemic, choices that have had update that had been introduced in September. Te elec- consequences and that have ultimately brought us to this tion had been in 2017 in the spring. Tat provided ten rather extended debate on what is typically a very routine weeks of legislative sitting for members to review, debate piece of legislation. and question ministers on the budget. Te NDP chose to go to an early snap election in In 2019, the budget was introduced February 19, and September. We’ve heard many excuses for why they chose there were nine weeks of sitting that followed. In 2020, this, but ultimately, we can recognize that political parties the budget was introduced February 18, weeks before our make political choices. Te NDP chose to let go of the worlds closed down and everything changed. We did have remarkable level of cooperation and collaboration that had the hybrid summer setting, much thanks to the hard work marked the frst eight months of 2020, to try to return us of the Clerks, Hansard and all of the staf here to pull that to what has been the status quo of the B.C. Legislature, together. In the end, there were a total of eight weeks of sit- a majority government that does not need or, generally, ting, afer the budget was introduced. choose to work collaboratively with other parties. In doing [2:35 p.m.] so, the NDP put themselves into a position where, for ten Here we are in 2021. Te budget won’t be introduced weeks, government was in caretaker mode. until April 20, three weeks afer the fscal year-end, and we In the critical fall period when budget preparation work will have a grand total of six weeks lef in our spring ses- is typically underway, the ministers were not working with sion to debate and question the budget in estimates. Ten, their staf to prepare budget submissions. Tey were on nine, eight, six. the campaign trail, raising election funds. So when we hear from government members that they want to have Interjection. the time to fully consult and prepare for this year’s budget, let’s not forget that there were ten weeks of consultation S. Furstenau: As the former Minister of Finance is and preparation that were lost because of the snap election. indicating, four weeks. Tat was a choice, not a set of circumstances that were out- It is a worrying trend, to say the least. Everyone, regard- side of their control. less of which party they are in, should be concerned about Let’s recall also that there were substantial consultation this trend. Transparency, accountability and being answer- processes, both from the Finance Committee and from able to parliament are essential to a healthy, functioning government itself, throughout the spring and summer democracy. Diminishment of the role of elected represent- months — consultations that were ultimately used, in large atives — diminishment of the time that elected representa- part, to feed the NDP’s election campaign. tives have to do their work in this chamber, diminishment Let’s also recognize that this government has demon- of parliament when it comes to oversight of government strated a tendency to do extensive consultation and to seek — is a diminishment of democracy. input from experts. I will point to the B.C. Utilities Com- For the many hours and days of the debate that we’ve mission report on Site C in 2017, the Basic Income Pan- been hearing, the government members have defended el report and the old-growth strategic review panel report this bill and spent a lot of time pointing to the misdeeds — extensive consultations seeking input from experts, and and missteps of the B.C. Liberal Party when they were in then not heeding that input or recommendations that have government from 2001 to 2017, and the ofcial opposition been brought forward. members have spent a great deal of time pointing to the Tis government has also made the choice to bring misdeeds and missteps of the NDP when they were in gov- the Legislature back in December of 2020 to pass a bill ernment over 20 years ago. that changed the deadline for the presenting of a budget, I imagine — which, as a relative newcomer to this place, pushing it past the end of the fscal year. Tat choice isn’t that hard to do — what it might be like for members is what brings us to the place we are today: debating a of the public who are watching this debate unfold, a debate two-page bill that in most years is neither controversial that seems to be about the past quite a bit more than it nor problematic. Te other implication of this choice to is about the present or, importantly, about the future. Te delay the budget is, ultimately, a shortening of the time lines are being so clearly redrawn now that we’re back in a that we will have to ask the ministers, in estimates, about majority government — lines and trenches that had been sofened, eroded and diminished not just in 2020, as all Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 923 three parties came together to meet the enormous chal- course represent the perspectives, the insights and the wis- lenge of the pandemic, but since 2017, when there were dom of the people who voted for them. two parties in this Legislature that had to work collaborat- As I watch and listen to and observe this debate, I ively. lament what we have lost: the collaboration. I also lament What’s interesting in the debate that I’ve heard so far that 3½ years of a more collaborative governance in this is that, for the most part, this period — 2017 to 2020 building does not seem to have had a particularly lasting and, particularly, the period of 2020 when there was a efect, although I remain hopeful and optimistic. Ulti- lot of collaboration — has been held up by both sides of mately, for me, this bill is a case of how we are not living up the House as something to be proud of. Accomplishments to the expectations that the public should have of us col- were made. Collaboration and cooperation happened. We lectively. rose to the challenge. We were at our best. Everybody has had to adjust to the set of circumstances, Majority governments have no need to work collaborat- the global pandemic that is well outside of our control. For ively. Tey can choose to do so, but they can also choose so many people, there have been enormous and life-chan- to operate completely independently from the rest of the ging losses and sacrifces. In a time of crisis, they look to Legislature because they have no need for the support of leaders to guide, to support, to shepherd all of us collect- any members outside of their caucus. With the trenches ively through these difcult times. Tis bill, the delayed rebuilt and the lines redrawn, we’ve seen, in the debate budget, the shortened time for the Legislature to properly around this bill, both sides of this Legislature revert to the investigate that budget in estimates and the diminishment age-old, time-honoured traditions of adversarial, confict- of transparency and accountability all fall short of what the driven debate so typical of majority governments. I think public should expect of their government. we can do, and we have done, so much better. I look to New Zealand, which has had minority gov- M. de Jong: Perhaps keeping with the theme that the ernments, with two exceptions, since moving to a mixed- Leader of the Tird Party was developing over the past member proportional electoral system in 1996. Interest- few moments, I’ll make the observation that it is cer- ingly, in the 2020 election, the Labour Party, under Prime tainly an interim supply debate unlike any that I have Minister Jacinda Ardern, did win an outright majority — participated in, in this place. I’ve participated in a few of unusual in a proportional representation system. But Ms. them over the years. Ardern decided to maintain a collaborative approach to We have, as we’ve just heard, been treated to accusations governance and appointed two opposition MPs as minis- from both sides of the foor, with the government mem- ters outside of cabinet. bers that have chosen to participate observing that there’s Ms. Ardern refected what she had learned and what has nothing unusual about what we are engaged in here today, been learned in New Zealand over the last couple of dec- that interim supply is very much a part of the parliament- ades, which is that governments do better when they’re ary tradition and the budgeting tradition and that the collaborating, when they’re listening, when they’re taking opposition needs to simply relax and accept that fact. in the perspectives of other parties. Here is an example Conversely, my colleagues and I — and the members, that we can look to: a recognition by this Prime Minister in a slightly diferent way, from the Tird Party — have that diferent perspectives contribute to better governance commented upon what we see as a violation of some fun- and better outcomes and that collaboration contributes to damental tenets of parliamentary democracy and the better governance overall. budgeting process that is so much a part of that parlia- I think that many of us around the world have looked to mentary democratic tradition. New Zealand for their impressive leadership on so many What is an observer to make of all this, who is watching, fronts: climate action, reconciliation, antiracism, banning perhaps confned to their home and, having run out of assault weapons in the wake of a horrifc murder of 51 their Netfix oferings for the day, has tuned in? What are Muslims worshipping in their mosques. they to make of those competing views of what is taking [2:40 p.m.] place? Well, I do have a perspective on this that I’ll share. It with great envy, I expect, that all of us have observed I’m not overly optimistic that it’s going to change any of New Zealand’s response to COVID-19, particularly when the minds of people in this chamber or of those who have we’ve seen the images of gatherings and concerts, while we spoken. Maybe, at the end of the day, that’s not the pur- have all had to spend so much time away from those most pose of the exercise, but merely to provide input, based on beloved to us. whatever insight I have, into these matters. I don’t think that there is a disconnect between how [2:45 p.m.] people are elected, how our parliaments are formed, how What I have thought…. As I’ve listened over the last they operate and the governance outcomes that we number of days, this question has emerged for me: are achieve. Needing the support of other parties puts an onus good intentions an excuse for abandoning good practices? on governments to consider those perspectives, those Are those two concepts, good intentions and good prac- insights and the wisdom of other political parties, which of tices, exclusive of one another? My answer, my proposition 924 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021 for the House, is that not only can good intentions and While that exercise is taking place — while the mem- good practices coexist, they must coexist. One is a neces- bers of this chamber, on behalf of their constituents, are sary prerequisite for the other. posing those questions, seeking clarifcation about the I was thinking the other day, sitting on the ferry and grand plan, the grand spending blueprint for the coming doing some mental math, about the number of MLAs that fscal year — in the interim, as the fscal year ends and as I have worked with in this place over the years. It’s some- spending authority ends, provision is made for the gov- where between 250 and 300. I haven’t counted each one. ernment to continue to operate by granting it interim sup- Some real characters, to be sure. I have to say, upon refec- ply. Tis is simply a code term we use for a portion of the tion, that virtually all of them…. Maybe, if I’m not gen- budget that they have introduced before this House, that is erous, there might be one or two I might have my doubts presently before the House, to ensure that the operations about, but virtually all of them were well-intentioned, of government can continue. motivated by a desire to serve, to do good — do good for Of course, that’s what’s missing here. But it’s a pretty the province, do good for their constituencies. fundamental piece of the puzzle when we are talking about One of the sad realities of this legislative session since the spending plan and its absence and the government the election is that, because of the nature in which it has coming along and asking for permission to spend a por- to be conducted, we haven’t really got a chance to get to tion of a plan that they haven’t shared with anyone. know some of the newer members of the chamber. We Terein lies the disconnect, and for us in opposition, a have learned about them from some of their speeches. I very worrisome feature. have no reason to doubt that the newest members of this I realize that some do not refect fondly, and I’m not chamber are any diferent in terms of coming here with always refecting fondly, on history. But to make the point, good intentions. But good intentions without good prac- I went back, and I looked, over the last number of years, tices is what gets governments and, ultimately, societies at the budgets. I didn’t go back far. I went back to 2017. into trouble. I could have gone back much further than that. I had a What is that in the context of budgeting? What are certain familiarity with some of the budgets between 2013 these, what I would deem, necessary good practices, and and 2017, but I didn’t go that far back. I went back to 2017, are they important? Well, they must certainly be important which was the last one that I was intimately involved in. in this context. Te parliament we are in — that we have Tis is the budget. Tese were the estimates that were the honour to sit in, stand in, speak in — really exists for tabled. Ten, sometime afer that, there was an interim two, maybe three reasons. supply bill that was tabled that sought permission to take One is that we create laws. We create laws that govern a portion of what was contemplated in these documents, people’s behaviour and impose sanctions on them if they in these spending estimates. It sought permission, and it fail to abide by those laws. Tat’s signifcant. Tat is was granted to spend a portion of that. Te same thing important. happened in subsequent years — 2018, 2019. We provide spending authority to the Crown, in the Here’s the 2018-2019 budget, budget book, estimates — context of our constitutional monarchy, via the executive about 400 pages of material. Guess what. Tere was anoth- branch — the authority to collect revenues and the author- er that was tabled in February, and then there was an ity to spend moneys. interim supply bill. In 2020, same thing. Budget estimates. A third function, I suppose, worthy of…. I got in trouble Again, another 300 or 400 pages of material that members once for not immediately recognizing this. It’s the role of could go through and had before them and could study in the parliament via the opposition to hold the government considering the government’s request for interim supply. to account as it exercises those constitutional authorities. What do we have this year? Tis is going back four All of that is part and parcel of what goes on here and years, most of which were under the watch of the present is really the essence of why we gather and why people are party in power. Over the past four years, we had this, as asked to make selections to send people here. Te govern- members of the House were considering interim supply. ment seeks permission — we call it a voted appropriation We have this, versus this, for $13 billion. Tis is what the in this place — and in seeking that permission to spend, it government — the Premier and the Finance Minister — lays before the members of this chamber a detailed spend- believe is sufcient for members to have before them. It’s ing plan and the details of what it expects to collect in rev- actually one page, if it’s double sided. It’s one page, and enues from various sources. that’s not enough. It’s not enough for the opposition, but Members get a chance to ask questions. Tey get to poke it’s not enough for British Columbians, whose money it is and prod and critique. It takes time. Usually, as the Leader in the frst place. of the Tird Party mentioned, it takes a couple of months. [2:55 p.m.] At least historically, it has taken a couple of months. As she I thought to myself: if we applied that standard to cir- has pointed out, and others, that time frame is becoming cumstances that might be more familiar to British Colum- more and more reduced, compacted. Tat is troubling. bians, what kind of reaction would we get? What about the [2:50 p.m.] family that goes in to negotiate the mortgage for their frst Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 925 home purchase? Tey go into their credit union. Tey sit these documents don’t want me to say that, but that’s what down, and at some point, the loans ofcer at the credit uni- it is. I can tell you, with some experience, that is the “let’s on, if they’re like my credit union, says: “Well, that’s all well pretend” clause. Let’s pretend there is a budget before us. and good, but we’re going to have to get a bit of a picture. Here’s what’s really astounding. What the government is We’ve got to get some information from you about your saying is, “Let’s pretend the budget that is before us is a fnancial circumstances.” budget that was introduced over a year ago,” that the gov- Tat family says to the credit union loans ofcer or the ernment itself acknowledged is absolutely irrelevant today manager: “Yeah, well, we’ve had a bad year this year. We — by the way, in this case, for reasons beyond the gov- can’t get you all the details just yet, but we think we’ll be ernment’s control. I will acknowledge that, in fairness. But able to get it to you in a month or two. We promise we’ll absolutely irrelevant. bring it to you in a month or two, but in the meantime, [3:00 p.m.] could you give us 25 percent of what we asked for? Could We are to pretend that it exists, we are to pretend that we get an advance on the 25 percent? And we promise we’ll it has relevance, and now we are to pretend that it is jus- bring in the other stuf that you want to look at.” tifcation in the absence of any other detail than that one By the way, just because he’s here, the minister of Jobs line. We are to pretend that it is justifcation for grant- and Economic Recovery…. He is in charge of a program, ing the government authority to spend $13 billion. It’s a small business support program. I just thought of this. I astounding, really. wonder if the government…. Now, he has received criti- Talking about some of those MLAs that I used to work cism — in my view, legitimate — for other reasons relating with, I was thinking the other day about a fellow that I to that program, but that’s for another day. We’ll talk about liked. I didn’t actually like him as much when he was a that for another day. political adversary. I respected him. Tat guy’s name was How would the minister, the government and the Dan Miller. people administering the small business support program He was an MLA for a number of years, from Prince react to this scenario? I’m a small business. I have certainly Rupert. He became a minister, became a premier, and a not had a very good year, and I’m making an application very worthy political adversary. For those who don’t know, for some funding support. he became an NDP premier. Boy, he was tough to pin When the people running the program say to me, “We’d down in debate or question period. He was good. I asked like to get a complete picture of your fnancial situation him once, afer he’d retired, how he accounted for that. for the past year and what you’re forecasting for the year You know what he told me? He said: “Never overplay your ahead,” I say to the program ofcials: “Well, I don’t have hand.” that yet, but I promise to get it to you in the next month Governing’s tough. God knows, it’s tough. Sometimes or two. In the meantime, can I have 25 percent of what I’m you get a pair of twos. When you’ve got a pair of twos, asking for? Can I have 25 percent of what I’m asking for? don’t bluf and pretend you’ve got a full house. I promise you, I’ll give you all the information you want a Te government’s blufng here. Te government is month from now.” blufng. Te diference is that, again, as we heard a few Well, I know what the response from the minister and moments ago, they have dealt themselves this hand. Tey his colleagues would be. One of the minister’s colleagues, have largely dealt themselves the hand that is causing the in fact, the now minister from Powell River–Sunshine consternation that we attempt to articulate today. Tey Coast, described Bill 10 as “nothing more….” I wrote it have decided that they do not want to be bound by the down. “A bridge between the previous budget and the new same discipline, the same timelines, the same reporting one.” requirements that have served this province well for about Well, he’s incorrect on both counts because, if we’re two decades. going to use the bridge analogy, it’s a bridge from nowhere When the previous, previous government embedded to nowhere. Now, some governments have made a mistake generally accepted accounting principles into the budget- of building a bridge that went from somewhere to ing process, it wasn’t easy. It caused a lot of frustration nowhere. But this would be the frst government to build a at times, but it was the right thing to do. It served this bridge from nowhere to nowhere, which is what we have. province very, very well. I say that because if you go to this one- or two-page doc- Te irony, as I see it, as I’ve listened to the debate, is that ument, as we heard a moment ago, you see the game that is government members continue to celebrate the benefts of being played. In section 1(1), the “‘main Estimates for the the things that developed out of that budgetary discipline previous fscal year’ means the main Estimates for the fsc- — the triple-A ratings, the budgetary strengths they inher- al year ending March 31, 2021….” ited — but then they proceed, by virtue of Bill 10 and some Ten, in sub 2, the “main Estimates for the previous fsc- other things that have taken place, to do two things that I al year are to be read as if they were the main Estimates fnd both frustrating and puzzling. for the fscal year ending March 31, 2022.” Tat, in legisla- Tey do mock our claims of budgetary discipline in tive parlance, is the “let’s pretend” clause. Tose who draf the governments that I served in, the transparency that 926 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021 developed for British Columbia. By the way, as I say this, Quite the opposite. Any reasonable-thinking person that is not to discount the right of oppositions to challenge, would have understood that that was precisely the wrong to chastise, to critique the contents of the budgets and time. Te government thought otherwise. COVID has not the decisions that were made. But the discipline around forced this government to delay the introduction of the timing, the reporting requirements, the transparency budget. Not at all. Tose were decisions motivated by developed for B.C. a reputation as the leader in Canada political expediency, nothing more. Well, the government and North America. will ultimately be held to account for these decisions. Tat’s not me saying so, although I’m happy to, and [3:10 p.m.] I’m proud I can. It is these other agencies who examine, I will say this. In the past, this chamber has had the observe and compare. When they mock us, who instituted details, the plan, the blueprint to study, to critique, to these rules, they aren’t actually mocking us. Tey are support. Tis government wants us to do it with one mocking the auditors general, the rating agencies, the page. I think that speaks volumes about the regard the lenders, the investors, who made those favourable assess- government, the Premier and the Finance Minister have ments free of any partisan considerations. Tey didn’t care for this chamber. which party we belonged to. Good intentions, Mr. Speaker, I would submit to you [3:05 p.m.] and the people of British Columbia, are no excuse for bad Tey just said that B.C., as a jurisdiction, has rules in practices. Bill 10, in my view, represents horribly bad prac- place that, procedurally, serve the public well, and they tice — horribly bad practice. If the Premier, the Finance applauded us for that. Now those rules are being fouted Minister and the NDP members don’t realize that, then I and dismantled. Secondly, as they, the members on the truly do fear for the future of British Columbia. government side, tout the benefts…. At the same time they tout the benefts that resulted from budgetary and P. Milobar: I’m glad to be able to rise and speak to Bill procedural discipline, they are dismantling that very struc- 10, the Supply Act. I’ll build a bit on what my colleague ture and the safeguards that helped us achieve that envi- from Abbotsford West was touching on as well, because able status. this bill is very concerning. I guess this is the biggest irony of all for me, and maybe It’s not concerning, in and of itself, that the government it derives from a more philosophical approach that I per- is asking for a supply bill. We understand that that is a reg- haps was not guilty of years ago, when I frst arrived here. ular course of business. Listening to the debate, one would But I have come to see the cyclical nature of politics. What think that this was a regular fow of work throughout this occurs to me is, ironically, that the government, the Premi- process right now this spring. er, the Finance Minister, the NDP colleagues are ultimately I can appreciate that perhaps the newly elected mem- sowing the seeds of their own demise. Sloppy, undiscip- bers to this chamber, being handed their speaking notes, lined practices will once again be their undoing. would not have known any diferent. I can understand Sadly, the province will pay a huge price along the way, that. Tere’s a lot to take in with new information on pro- and we will begin to see that very quickly, because we have cess and procedure. You’d have no reason to think that seen it all before. I had a ring-side seat. I didn’t want to this was not something that normally happened. If you come in here and read chapter and verse from the play- were just a passing observer of what goes on in this cham- book of the last time the NDP held a majority government ber over the years, you would always hear “supply bill” in this place. We heard a few moments ago about how that and you’d think: “Oh yeah, I remember hearing something status has altered behaviour in the last few years. about a supply bill.” I was around, sitting on this side of the House, the last As the previous speaker from Abbotsford West has time the NDP had a majority. I could go through the des- pointed out so well, a supply bill comes afer a budget. A cent into budgetary chaos that unfolded as a result of that supply bill comes afer those 300 or 400 pages of detail. lack, or absence, of discipline. A supply bill comes as we’re sitting there scrutinizing the Maybe the more efective way or, ultimately, more con- budget to make sure that everyone understands how and vincing way to do it is by referring to a number. Te num- what programs are going to be initiated, where the spend- ber is two, because when all was said and done, that lack of ing will go, what the priorities of the government are. discipline, that manipulation, that behaviour lef a proud Every government, regardless of political stripe, has the party with two seats, and we’re going down that road ability to set their priorities within that budget, and no one again. I suppose one could say, “Well, you should be cheer- is disputing that. It happens all across Canada. ing,” except the price, the toll that exacted on the province, All of Canada has had a pandemic underway for this that descent into budgetary chaos, took years to repair, and last year. As far as I know, all the other provinces have here we go again. been able to stick to their budgetary guidelines. Tat’s It’s easy to blame COVID. No one in British Columbia crucial when you consider that, in this House, the previ- needs to be convinced of the impact that has had. But ous Finance Minister asked this House to give the abil- COVID didn’t force the government to call an election. ity afer an election to extend the budget cycle by one Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 927 month. We said at the time that we didn’t understand their mandate as a minority government but to add six why it was needed, but it was approved. Fast-forward to months to it. Tey changed that law. just afer the election that got called a year in advance of Tis is the second time they’ve changed the budgetary when it was supposed to be called normally due to legis- timeline laws. Why it’s concerning is that with Bill 10, the lation. Again, government overriding their own legisla- excuse is COVID. COVID seems to be the excuse for a lot tion: a fxed election law. of things going on, on the governmental side, these days. We were met in December with a bill that asked us Let’s look at what happened with the transition of to approve extending for another month when a budget power, of those 16 years that the other side likes to talk should be implemented. We said at that time that it wasn’t about so ofen. In July of 2017, the NDP take minority gov- necessary. At that same time in December, we had also ernment status. You know what happened in September? been given a request for $2 billion by the Finance Minister Two months later there was a full new budget presented by — $2 billion with no detail — to provide COVID relief a government which hadn’t been in power for 16 years pre- money, mid-budgetary year. viously, by a Finance Minister that had to fgure out how to At the time, we said: “Where is the detail? Why do work with the Finance bureaucracy in a two-month win- you need $2 billion for a program that, you openly admit, dow of time, to get a budget presented to this House. should only be in the $1 billion-to-$1.2 billion range, to You know what we did in October, right on schedule, push out the door to provide people with their COVID afer the budget was presented? We had full estimates relief money?” Many of them are still waiting for that debates on that budget. COVID relief money, I would point out. Instead, we now have a new Finance Minister, post an At the time, we were told: “Oh, it’s for other COVID election, that was triggered a year early by this government programs. Don’t worry. Trust us.” Well, we heard in this and by no one else, and we’re told: “Just trust us.” Well, House just two weeks ago, as I believe it was, the Finance we’ve tried that over the last year with several COVID ini- Minister, in one of her answers in question period, tiatives, and we still can’t get any details. We can’t get any explaining exactly why we should have concerns about straight answers about any of it. “Just trust us” seems to be Bill 10, as we asked questions in question period about the line. For $13 billion, we have a bill with more preamble Bill 10. and whereas’s than actual clauses and descriptive language [3:15 p.m.] around the $13 billion it’s asking for — a bill that’s so light She stood up in this chamber and indicated that the that we could probably read it into the record, completely, COVID relief money was indeed at about $1.2 billion out in a two-minute statement. the door — and sat down. We still don’t know what It’s simply not acceptable that the government feels that happened to the other $800 million we approved. We don’t this is what passes for adequate information and disclos- know what program it went to. We don’t know if it’s going ure. As the member for Abbotsford West said previously, to just get rolled into year-end spending and blown out the it’s not adequate for this House to properly know what the door in the next week or week and a half, as a slush fund priorities and the spending is for this $13 billion without a to make the Premier look like a nice guy with a bunch of full budget to account for it. I’ll take that one step further. photo ops at the last second, bailing people out. We don’t It’s totally inadequate for the general public, for the tax- know, because there was no detail with that $2 billion. Tat payers whose funds make up this $13 billion, to have any was in December. accountability and transparency with Bill 10 and this gov- Let’s go back to March 23, when a blank cheque for $5 ernment’s actions. billion was given. “Trust us. We’re going to use it for all [3:20 p.m.] sorts of good COVID relief programs” — to which this Now, the government will keep saying…. We heard side of the House agreed. member afer member: “Tis is routine. Tis is routine. Tis always happens.” It simply does not. An Hon. Member: One year ago tomorrow. We looked back. As best we could fnd, 1974 was when something like this happened. When something similar P. Milobar: Exactly. One year ago tomorrow. to this happened, with special warrants and budgetary Good faith, unanimous — $5 billion approved with no shenanigans going on, it was in the ’90s, in the fudge-it detail. “Details to come.” And $1.5 billion of that was ear- budget. It’s well documented what the now Health Minis- marked for businesses. When did the detail for that come? ter wound up having to do in his role as a stafer at the Six months later, right before the election, which was time, needing to resign for backdating memos. We know called a year ahead of when the fxed election law said it the Premier was working at that time in the Ministry of would be — a date that this government actually set. Finance. We know the current chief of staf was working It used to be May. Teir frst order of business in this within government at a high level at that time. Yet the oth- House, as a new government, was to pass new election er side seems to get ofended that we bring it up. laws to push it to October of this year, to give themselves Te only reason people get their hackles up around the an extra six months — not to take six months away from ’90s being referenced, on both sides of the political spec- 928 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021 trum, is because it was a disaster. As we heard — wound up First of, if this bill was to be defeated, that would be a with two seats. Tat’s the electorate speaking at that point. confdence vote. One would think the other side, having to Tat’s the electorate remembering what happened when govern for the last three and a half years with a one-seat the games, like we’re seeing now, started to get played with majority based on a deal with a third party, would under- the budgetary process. stand how those work. Tat would be the frst thing. We’d We have a former Finance Minister that was able to be thrown into an election. deliver a full budget and open it up for full scrutiny within Why would we be thrown into an election? Why two months of them taking ofce, and we have a new would this bill be voted down and an election be Finance Minister that, fve months afer an election, can’t triggered? It would only happen if half of the other side deliver a budget on time. First act of business is actually decided to take a day of work. Te math is pretty clear to call the assembly back in December to buy two more in the House. I know if I’d said that in a normal chamber, months’ time to deliver a budget. with all 87 here, the thundering applause from the other I’ll point out that if you look at the calendar, yes, the side would be great. budget will be introduced on April 20. If you look at the One only has to look at the plain numbers afer the elec- parliamentary calendar, those same budget estimates won’t tion. I’m not denying it. Te NDP have two seats for every start efectively until the middle of May. Te frst real scru- seat we have. How did the Attorney General think this bill tiny, minister by minister, of the budget that will be intro- was going to grind government to a halt if the B.C. Liber- duced on April 20 will not start until the afernoon of the als voted against it? Are they taking spring break early? Tursday right before we go on a break. So estimates will It’s that type of statement, coming from other side of not start in earnest until May 10 of this year. I say that the House, that gives pause about the confdence that standing here on March 22, where we should have been anyone over there actually has a good handle on what is just about halfway through estimates by now. happening. If I was a new member to the House, from Te scary part is that the other side doesn’t seem to that side, I’d be a little embarrassed that the Attorney care. Tey don’t seem to see the urgency. Tey just fat-out General prompted you with speaking lines that are pat- refuse to acknowledge that on a budgetary scale, this is a ently wrong. Tey just are. train wreck. Tere is no detail. Tis supply bill, Bill 10, is Tis Bill 10, as we’ve heard, has so little detail in it that built on a pre-pandemic budget, so it’s a quarter of what all we get told is that they want $12,305,108,000 towards the government thought they were going to have to spend defraying costs. Wow, that makes sense. Perfectly clear. before they needed COVID relief programs in place. You know, the interesting thing is that as the weather We’re told by the Finance Minister…. Talk about a shell warms up in B.C., government services tend to ramp up as game. Well, that’s not how budgeting works. It’s not 1/12 well. So for the Finance Minister to say, “Oh, well, it’s just and 1/12 and 1/12. “Don’t worry. We can just pull money a pot of money. We’ll spend more in April, and then we’ll from the third month forward to make sure we have spend a little bit more in May. But don’t worry. Te June enough money for the COVID relief payments in the money can just cover that of. By then, we should have a beginning of April.” budget passed. We’ll still have enough money lef in the I understand that they have a healthy majority, but you kitty, and then the rest of the budget will kick in….” Tat’s wouldn’t think it listening to the Attorney General talk the logic for the other side. about this bill. Tat, or the Attorney General just funda- mentally doesn’t understand at all how budgets work in [R. Leonard in the chair.] our parliamentary system. For the Attorney General to stand in this House and tell people that if we voted against Te reality is that as parks start to open, more staf start this bill, which we’re not certain we’re going to yet…. We to get hired. As other programs start to ramp up in the want to see people get their COVID relief payments. We summertime, more staf start to get hired. Tis budget want to see programs move forward. We also want to see is so late, we’re actually talking about the summertime. some transparency and some disclosure. I don’t think We’re talking about a budget being introduced April 20 that’s asking too much on behalf of the public. that won’t actually get any scrutiny in this House of any [3:25 p.m.] kind, of questions to the ministers, until the middle of May For the Attorney General to turn around in this House, instead of the third week of February. and other members afer him, and say that if we vote When we’re told, “Just trust us on Bill 10,” it’s kind of against this bill, we’re trying a U.S.-style shutdown of gov- hard to. It’s kind of hard to trust that they’re going to spend ernment…. Te fact that the Attorney General doesn’t $13 billion wisely, with accountability and transparency, know that that’s not actually what would happen is quite when they give you a one-page bill for that. Te bill, I shocking. Very shocking that the Attorney General, who’s believe, in December, actually, for $2 billion — it wasn’t supposed to be in charge of the laws of the province, is even a bill. It was just a supply bill. We didn’t debate it. alluding to the fact that government would shut down and We had some estimates on it. I think it had as much if not grind to a halt if we were to vote against this bill. more detail than this has in it. Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 929

You know what had a lot of detail in it and that was budget that was introduced last February and that Bill 10 is longer than this in December? Te legislation to extend based on. Te business grant program didn’t exist. It exis- the ability of when you presented a budget. Tis govern- ted as a result of a March 23 vote in this House that gave a ment has spent more time and provided more detail to blank cheque for $5 billion to this government, which has legislation about how to delay things and avoid accountab- fddled around and played games with it and won’t provide ility than they have to bring forward actual, factual infor- any transparency on the $5 billion, and which came to mation that people can dig into and take a look at. this House again in December, insisting they needed the [3:30 p.m.] money to be able to provide COVID relief. Could you imagine, speaking of municipalities…. We’ve We agree with the COVID relief for people. We didn’t seen what the Attorney General has been like to municip- agree with the $2 billion because we said that there alities in the last couple of weeks. Certainly, he’s not threat- wouldn’t be any accountability. “Why do you need that ening them. You know, telling them that the 42 people much?” “Oh, don’t worry. Trust us.” Well, we’ve seen what that need housing need 1,000 tents and 1,000 sleeping bags trust has gotten us a few times already, in just a year. We’ve provided by B.C. Housing. Tat’s not threatening at all — also seen that it’s totally possible for a Finance Minister, in that they’re trying to set up a larger encampment if the city a two-month time frame, to go from being in opposition doesn’t just be quiet and do whatever the Attorney General for 16 years to sitting in the Finance Minister’s chair, pres- says. enting a full budget to this chamber and being able to have Can you imagine the Attorney General’s reaction to estimates at a normal timeline for that budget. those same municipalities if they tried budgeting like this? Why that’s important is because the pre-budgetary work Te Attorney General has made it very, very clear that would have started well in advance of that September elec- municipalities are a creature of and exist at the will of the tion call by the Premier. Te bureaucracy of the Ministry province. Tey get to do, and have to stay in their lane, of Finance would have been working forward on what according to what the province tells them they may or may the Premier and ministers were advising was the direction not do. they were planning to set, on a February budget. Tat work Municipalities have been going through COVID; muni- would have been underway. cipalities have had to deal with COVID. I don’t see them [3:35 p.m.] delaying their budget process by two months. I don’t see Tat staf is all still there. Te only thing that changed is them saying to the province: “Yeah, well, we’ll fgure out the minister. Te Premier is still there. Te chief of staf is our budget in a couple of months. Don’t worry about it.” I still there. One would assume that that direction was going know what the province would say to a municipality that to continue in the same way. Tey would have already been tried doing that. As a former mayor, I know the pressure dealing with the pandemic for six to nine months. But no, we were under in a municipality, in any given year, to bring the frst order of business by this new Finance Minister is forward a budget on time and to have proper public scru- to delay yet another month and to blame COVID. Uncon- tiny and proper public input at the same time, which the scionable, completely unconscionable. province demands by municipalities when they’re devel- Without proper oversight, without the opposition hav- oping their budget. ing the ability to properly scrutinize and question the pri- It’s totally lacking in Bill 10 — no detail, no accountab- orities of a government, it makes it very difcult for the ility. Shrugs from the other side, telling us: “Don’t worry public to have faith in what the government is doing. You about it. It’s only a couple of weeks. We only need the think back to 25 years ago, when the infamous fudge-it money for a couple of weeks.” Well, if you only need the budget happened. You think about the technology and the money for a couple of weeks, why did you ask for three public expectation around access to documents, access to months? It simply doesn’t add up; it’s simply not good information, wanting to know what was going on, com- enough. pared to what it is nowadays, 25 years later. When people are expecting COVID relief programs to Tink about how all of us have to conduct ourselves continue on and aren’t sure where the money is coming with social media, as part of our lives as elected ofcials, from, it’s not good enough. When the Premier talks about compared to what it was like 25 years ago. Tink of how a business grant program that has to have the money out much demand the public has for their right to know, the door by March 31 or it’s going to end, and then we almost in real time, what is going on, and the ease that magically hear two weeks later that it’s extended to August they can call up our debates and go online and fnd things. 31 — outside the window of this bill, too, I would point out Tey’re not sitting there waiting for a dial-up anymore. A — where is the money coming from? We don’t know. couple of clicks, and they can call up all the history we’re Does the business support program only continue on if talking about here. Tey’ll see it’s all factual. Tey’ll see the supply bill passes? Is it even part of the supply bill? how dismal this bill is, in terms of lack of disclosure and Te business recovery grant is a COVID program that transparency. didn’t exist when the very budget that this was built on, It’s astounding that the government has been able to pull Bill 10, was frst introduced. It wasn’t part of the $49 billion of this level of hiding what they actually want to spend 930 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021 the taxpayers’ money on, in this day and age. What’s more Tere’s a lot to answer for in a one-page bill that asks for astounding is that member afer member on the govern- a blank cheque for $13 billion. ment side just stands up and shrugs like it’s no big deal. Tere are some interesting quotes, previously, when we T. Stone: I’m pleased to take my place in the debate on were the party in charge, when there was the occasional second reading, Bill 10, the supply bill. special warrant brought forward. I say occasional, but What an extraordinary couple weeks in the context of there was the occasional time they were needed. Tey were what the government is bringing forward in Bill 10, the brought forward with full disclosure and information and supply bill. I certainly have listened, with fascination, vetting by the opposition. through the many hours of debate that has taken place Te opposition didn’t like it. Tey didn’t have to like it. from members on both sides of the House. Te govern- But they had access to the information. Tey had access ment side generally has opted to focus on a “there’s noth- to actually ask questions on behalf of the public that we ing to see here” theme, that “this is all standard; this is all all serve. normal,” whereas on the opposition side, we’ve said there’s You know who stood up in this House and spoke against actually nothing normal about this. the use of those special warrants? Te now Premier, when I take a great amount of fascination in anyone on the he was in opposition. Te Minister of Energy and Mines government’s side suggesting that coming to this place spoke up pretty strongly against it; now it’s just a shrug. and asking for approval of $13.4 billion in supplementary Te same Premier that was working in the Ministry of expenditures attached to last year’s budget, with no details, Finance back in the fudge-it budget years as well, I might no budget to reference that refects current circumstances, point out. It’s amazing how his perspective keeps shifing certainly no details — that anyone on the government as to what is actually appropriate or not for how he con- side would think that that makes sense. Te member for ducts himself — more importantly, how he demands his Abbotsford West, a colleague of mine in the ofcial oppo- cabinet conduct themselves in terms of bringing things sition and a former Finance Minister, I think laid it out forward, bringing information forward. pretty well today, when he held up in one hand the stack of Bill 10, we have a lot of questions for. As I say, we do documents that are typically associated with a budget bill. want to see government continue to operate. It’s COV- Tere’s the budget document itself. Tere’s a whole ID. Tat’s why we didn’t think there should be a caretaker bunch of estimates, details — all of the information relat- mode middle-pandemic, in September, for an election. ing to the Crown corporations, all of the information relat- Interesting how the Premier’s perspective changed on that ing to virtually every projected penny of revenue and too. Tat’s fne. He made his choice. We’ll move forward. expense that the government anticipates for the forthcom- But we’re moving forward with a whole lot of questions, ing year. It’s all provided in a great big bound collection of and we’re expecting a whole lot of answers. paper every single year. Yet today, last week, presumably Last I checked, the clock is ticking. Tis comes into through the balance of this week, we will be asked to efect with royal assent. Tis is our last sitting week. Tis approve the expenditure of $13.4 billion that’s detailed in a bill got delayed how many times when it kept coming up? single sheet of paper. It was introduced right at the very beginning. We could Now, supply bills do serve a purpose. Tey certainly have been having this debate for quite some time already. enable the government to continue to function afer a So we are not going to be bound by the clock on the wall, budget is introduced. But that’s the key: afer a budget seeking answers to our questions on behalf of constituents. is introduced. Usually, supply bills seek appropriation for [3:40 p.m.] funds afer the main estimates and the main budget have We’ll move forward with this bill. We’re going to ques- been presented, not before. tion the heck out of clause 2, because that’s a $12.3 bil- [3:45 p.m.] lion clause with no information in it. I guess we’ll just Tis bill — actually, saying it’s two pages is quite gen- see, at the end of the week, where we land — if this gov- erous; it’s really a page and a third — as I’ve mentioned, ernment is prepared to ofer actual answers in detail, or has no details. It provides for deeming last year’s budget if they’re going to continue with what their narrative has to be the budget that these supplementary estimates will been in the debate so far: “Don’t worry about it. You’ll be attached to. As I said, it asks for the defraying of costs, see it in a few weeks.” charges and expenses of the public service of the province Well, we do worry about it. Tis is $13 billion. Te of $12.3 billion, and additional expenditures relating to public has a right to have answers to their questions. capital and other matters. But no detail. Te public has a right to know how programs are going Te question, I think, fundamentally, needs to be, to continue to be funded afer April 1. We’ll seek those “Who does this actually serve?” — coming to this House answers out. I do hope the Minister of Finance has her and saying: “Here’s a 1⅓-page bill that would authorize team ready to go as we move into committee stage on the expenditure of $13.4 billion. We’re not going to tell this bill, because there are going to be a lot of questions. you any of the details, as to what that spending actually is all about, what programs and services of government Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 931 will receive this funding and which ones won’t, how this understanding of both roles in this chamber. It is imperat- impacts the overall provincial budget. We’re not going to ive that tough, focused questions be asked by the opposi- provide any of that material, but let’s just all agree that tion members and by all members. I would hope that there we’re in a pandemic, it’s not normal circumstances, and would be members in government that would be curious, supply bills happen all the time. Let’s just proceed with be asking questions about the request for the expenditure this blank cheque.” of $13 billion. But I guess we will see. I would suggest that this approach does not serve the Te government coming forward with this bill unfortu- people of British Columbia well. It serves the government nately adds another proof point to a pattern that appears to well. It serves the purposes of the Finance Minister. It be developing with respect to the government’s approach serves the members of the government caucus. It certainly to budget transparency. Certainly, calling an election, a does not serve the citizens of British Columbia well. snap election that wasn’t necessary, was not conducive to We, on this side of the House in the opposition, have building trust. Te NDP have then gone through this pro- tried to put a fence around the protections, shine a bright cess leading up to this supply bill, and now through this light on the protections that have been built over many debate, by bringing forward this 1⅓-page supply bill. And years with respect to the budgetary processes in this a number of other actions are systematically pulling apart province. At the end of the day, it is the fundamental at those safeguards that, again, as I said earlier, were built responsibility of this place to approve expenditures of the up around our budgetary process. province. Te Premier went so far as to suggest that the reason I mean, right at the centre of our parliamentary demo- this supply bill is needed, the reason the government cracy is the respect for the people that are elected by the couldn’t bring in a budget on time, the reason the gov- citizens who live here to come to this place, to debate ernment needs to expand its use of special warrants, the and to vote on bills that come in front of this House, the reason so many of these fundamental changes to the safe- most important of which is always matters relating to the guards in place relating to our budgetary practices…. Te expenditure of the public’s money.Tat is absolutely fun- reason so much of that has to change is because of the elec- damental to our democracy. tion that the Premier called a year early. As a number of It’s long established that the government cannot — members in the opposition have said, this was an election should not — change taxation rates, impose new taxes or that wasn’t needed. Te impetus for it was not brought on spend public funds without the Legislature’s approval. But by the COVID pandemic. Te impetus for it was brought also, as I said, there has been process and rules that have on by a desire for this government to call an election at an been established around that, that dictate how a govern- opportunistic time. ment goes about doing exactly that. At the end of the day, Well, I guess it worked. It worked for them. But how it’s about integrity in the budget process. many British Columbians have paid the price for that snap A number of government MLAs have suggested in some election? It certainly is not accurate, nor would I suggest it of their comments that their party won the last election; is principled, to suggest that the budget being delayed, the therefore, the government can proceed as it sees ft. Tis is use of special warrants and a $13.4 billion, 1⅓-page sup- normal practice. It doesn’t much matter what the members ply bill is all predicated upon a snap election. As I said, of the opposition have to say. the uniqueness of what the government is doing here is How dare we, in the opposition, ask questions? What not only asking us to support a $13.4 billion expenditure kind of nerve does one have in this place to stand up with no details and no budget, but they’re attaching it to and ask focused questions of the government that wants a budget that was introduced in this Legislature almost a approval to spend $13.4 billion? year ago. [3:50 p.m.] [3:55 p.m.] I’ve spoken about my grandfather a number of times Tey’re probably one of the few governments — if not in this place. He was a railroader in Port Coquitlam, very the only government in the western world — that is using active in the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, a pre-pandemic 2020 revenue and expense projections a strong, ardent supporter of the CCF and the NDP. With year later to ask a legislature for a multi-billion-dollar sup- a great amount of pride, I credit my passion for public plementary expenditure of taxpayers’ money. I’m not service, my love of this place, my desire to want to serve aware of this being needed in most other provinces, by the the people that send me here to my grandfather’s infu- way. Tere are many jurisdictions that have managed to ence. But I remember, among many things, my grandpa introduce their budgets on time. In fact, in most of these always said that a government is only as strong as the jurisdictions, they’ve said the imperative for doing so was opposition to it. because of the need to get the supports out to people and Now, it took me a number of years to really understand out to small businesses, in the context of the pandemic. what that meant. Having now sat on the government side But here in British Columbia, the government made a very of this place for four years and on the opposition side diferent choice. Te government decided to call a snap of this place for four years, I have some experience and election and delay the budget as a result. 932 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021

As the member for Abbotsford West went through, fam- Te only problem with this was this was a week before ilies don’t get to do this. Families don’t get to ask for a the provincial election was then called. So it was hard 25 percent advance on their paycheques. Small businesses not to look at this as it was happening and realize that don’t get to ask for a 25 percent advance from a fnancial the StrongerBC plan that had taken the government institution on a loan that they might need. If you’re in the from March to September to presumably prepare…. It non-proft sector or the service organization sector, you was hard not to realize in that moment that this was don’t get to ask for a 25 percent advance from your donors. really just an election document. It was a springboard It doesn’t work that way, certainly without having any- for the government to go into an election campaign. thing attached, any plan or any details or any summary of Tat’s exactly what they did. how the funding will be spent. I mean, even a pawnshop Again, trust. Trust is eroded. All through this time, from requires you to put some collateral down. the call of the election to the election itself to the period Nobody could anticipate this pandemic. Nobody could afer the election before a cabinet is sworn in and members anticipate the impacts that it was going to have. I think are sworn in, we are talking about several months of addi- most members in this chamber, on all sides, agree with the tional time, during which time there weren’t supports and statement that as unique as the pandemic was, certainly services rolling out. Tere wasn’t an active government in in the early days and the unknown that it represented, it place, other than in caretaker mode. I’ve been there, done was also a moment of uniqueness in the checking of partis- that. I know how that works. Cabinet only meets in mat- an politics at the door and all parties coming together and ters of an emergency. standing shoulder to shoulder to ensure that this Legis- You have all this money approved in March, an election lature was doing everything it possibly could, as quickly as called in September, people still waiting for supports. it could, to be there for the people of British Columbia. I Again, trust. Te Premier then makes the commitment was proud, as were all members in the opposition, and I during the election campaign that the recovery beneft know in the government as well. will be in everybody’s pockets by Christmas. We still have On March 23 last year, we came into this place in a people, thousands of people, that are waiting. Tey’re still very limited fashion, and we unanimously approved a trying to navigate the system and work through the red $5 billion aid package for businesses and for people. Of tape. Tey’re still waiting for their fve hundred bucks. that $5 billion, $2.8 billion was for people and $2.2 bil- Te small business supports that were part of the eco- lion was for business. Te $2.2 billion was later revised nomic recovery plan that the government announced just by the government down to $1.9 billion. We’ve asked before the election only included one grant, only one item for accounting of that. We haven’t received those details. that represented putting cash into the pockets of small and Tat plays into trust. medium-sized businesses across British Columbia — the We then consistently asked question afer question, small and medium-sized business recovery grant. I think whether we were in this place or outside of this place, for all members of this House can agree that small business the government to tell us when the economic recovery has been hit extraordinarily hard — in some sectors, a lot plan would be launched, the $2.2 billion in supports for harder than others. But in community afer community, business, small businesses in particular, that had been we all have the stories of people that just can’t make it. revised down to $1.9 billion. Where was that plan? When Tey’ve already failed or they’re just barely hanging on. were we going to see it? It was approved again on March Te government, presumably, had $1.9 billion to work 23 last year. Month afer month afer month there was no with. Tey come out with the small and medium-sized response other than: “It’s coming. We’re working on it.” business recovery grant. Small businesses initially get Ten we get to August, and the NDP decides to pass excited upon hearing that this program is coming. Afer legislation to delay the budget from its usual introduction all, small businesses at that time were hit with all kinds in February to March. Te then Finance Minister, Carole of added costs like making changes their foor plans to James, said: “Tese changes will allow sufcient time for adhere to WorkSafe and health requirements, rightfully so. due diligence to be done by the good public servants who Te purchase cost of personal protective equipment — we work for all us in British Columbia.” called upon the government to help small businesses with [4:00 p.m.] the cost of that. Tere was no support forthcoming. Small At least in August of 2020, Carole James, the then Fin- businesses had to shoulder all of that. ance Minister, had confdence in the ability of the govern- [4:05 p.m.] ment and the public servants who really do the hard work You talk to businesses on a day-to-day business through behind the scenes in bringing forward the budget, albeit those really dark months, through the spring and into the not in February but in March. early summer. You hear the stories of revenues being down Ten we fast-forward to September. Te Premier, along by 50 percent or 60 percent or having to lay of dozens with the then Finance Minister, hold a big press conference of employees. Small businesses were excited at the pro- here in Victoria to announce the economic recovery plan spect of a grant program, but nothing could have been of the government. StrongerBC, it’s called. more botched than this particular program. I’m not sure Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 933 that the government could have botched it any worse than est. I think of the tourism sector. Tourism is a $20 billion they did. I’m still trying to fgure out if this was by design industry in British Columbia. Its greatest output in recent or if this just truly refects a level of incompetence that is memory — $20 billion. One would think that the govern- breathtaking. ment would move with a greater degree of urgency in sup- Te government announces a $300 million small and porting the tourism sector. medium-sized business recovery grant program. Tis [4:10 p.m.] grant program is announced, again, in September, right Te tourism sector puts a proposal on the government’s before the election. It’s put on pause through the election table, like last spring, and says: “We need $680 million to period, and so forth. We point out to the government that make sure that this industry is able to survive.” Tis isn’t there are some signifcant faws with this program that about nice-to-have stuf. Tis is about must-have stuf to need to be addressed immediately. Surely the government keep businesses afoat in this difcult period when borders was receiving the same emails and frantic phone calls as are closed and people can’t travel and you can’t eat in a res- we were receiving in the opposition from small business taurant and you can’t go and stay in your favourite hotel, owners worried that they’re not going to be able to keep wherever you happen to choose to vacation within British their lights on. Columbia. Te eligibility criteria was originally set up so restrict- Te government takes a whole bunch of time and then ively that tens of thousands of small businesses just comes back with a $50 million proposal, a counter-pro- couldn’t apply successfully, because they wouldn’t be posal, a $50 million cheque, and the launch of a task force deemed eligible. So we said to the Minister of Jobs and to — in the midst of a pandemic. Tere was nothing new that the Premier: “You need to make some changes.” And we came out of this task force in terms of recommendations walked through what those changes are. Do away with the or ideas or solutions that the tourism industry and busi- requirement to have been in business for 18 months on the nesses within it need. It’s all stuf that the tourism sector date of application. Do away with the requirement for a 70 had already been pleading with government to address, to percent revenue loss at some point in the months of March put on the table. and April for 2020. Do away with the requirement, under Tey waste all this time and make all of these small every circumstance, that you have to have been proftable businesses and all of these hard-working British Columbi- in 2019, no matter what, in order to be eligible for funding ans…. Not just those that start these businesses, that take under this grant program. the risks and that step up every day to pursue their dreams We said to the government: “You need to make these and create opportunity for themselves and for other Brit- changes.” Did they make the changes in those couple ish Columbians. It’s about all of those other tens of thou- months leading up to Christmas? No. Did they make the sands of British Columbians in the tourism sector that are changes in December? Well, the Jobs Minister did make now not working or are only working a much-reduced a couple tweaks. It wasn’t enough. Inexplicably, the gov- number of hours or shorter amount of shifs. ernment decided to waste another two months before fur- It’s unfathomable why the government hasn’t done more ther changes were made to the program, along the lines of to support the tourism sector. No matter what they stand exactly what we were calling for, in an efort to ensure that up and say they’re doing, it’s not reaching the small busi- more small businesses — the true mom-and-pop busi- nesses, the operators and their employees. We’re losing nesses in communities across our province — actually get businesses day by day. the support that they need, that they actually get that sup- Te restaurant sector is operating at 63 percent revenue port in a timely fashion. losses right now. Te hotel sector still has tens of thou- We do know that the Jobs Minister doesn’t seem to want sands of people out of work. You know, I mentioned a to tell us directly how the numbers are progressing, so we moment ago the small and medium-sized business recov- piecemeal it together based on media reports and so forth, ery grant program. Tere are still a bunch of businesses but the latest count that I have, to this point, is that only 25 out there that really need the help, but they’re not getting percent of the program funding has actually gone out the it because they’re still not eligible. door. I’ll give you one example. I have a hotel, a small You know, I’m sure it’s gone up a few million since the boutique hotel, in the city of Kamloops. It’s called the other day, but somewhere in the $85 million-to-$90 mil- South Tompson Inn. It’s been around for decades. It’s a lion, maybe $92 million, range, on a program with $345 unique experience along the South Tompson River. Tere million, from a program that was announced six months is golf right next door. Tere are horses in the area. You can ago, from money that was approved by this Legislature a go up into the hills on trails. It’s absolutely spectacular. Te year ago — 25 percent of the money is out the door. Again, owner, who has invested everything into this property over it’s a matter of trust. Tis is why we’re having difculty with those decades, decides in 2019 that he’s going to undergo a a 1⅓-page supply act that has no details attached to it. signifcant renovation of his property. So he undertakes to We’ve all talked, at times, in this place about the sectors do that. that desperately need help and that have been hit the hard- Guess what happened. Two things. One, he didn’t 934 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021 have a proft in 2019. Two, shame on him. He didn’t Tey can’t make those numbers work. Tey’re at grave risk know that there was a pandemic that was going to hit of closing as a result. the following year that was going to drive him practic- Many businesses are receiving hydro bills. Again, speak- ally out of business. ing of hotels, hotels are deemed by B.C. Hydro to be large Tis government then sets up this grant program and industry. Tere is no consideration for the size of the hotel, says that if you aren’t proftable for 2019, no matter what which means the small and mid-sized hotels are categor- your circumstances are, you’re not eligible to receive any of ized in the same way as the large ones. Tey’re therefore the funding from this program. Why? Where is the fexib- not eligible for certain relief when it comes to hydro utility ility? Where is the compassion for that business owner and costs. Tey’re getting these bills now. Tere is no relief to his hundreds of employees? help them make it through this. Tis is, again, back to the matter of trust. Tis is why I could go on and on and on. Take one community out we have a lot of questions about this supply bill. It’s why of the sentence and put a diferent community in the sen- we’re very concerned at what the government is wanting tence. Tese stories are happening everywhere. It’s what this Legislature to proceed with. cuts back to the sadness, the disappointment, the frustra- [4:15 p.m.] tion that so many people feel when they hear the govern- Tere’s a small business, a little deli up at Sun Peaks. ment talking about all the great things that the govern- It’s called Ohana Deli Market. Tis deli is owned by a ment has done for small business, all the wonderful pro- young woman by the name of Bobbe Lyall. She opened grams. Ten you realize that there are just so many that are up her deli with great anticipation in time for Christmas not receiving the supports that they need, that are still fall- Eve of 2019. ing through the cracks. She immediately ramped up to 12 to 14 full-time On the point of supports, the Jobs Minister makes a employees. It has been her dream to start her own busi- great big deal about how we support business in this ness. She’s lived up at Sun Peaks and has worked for all province greater than any other province in the country. kinds of others in the hospitality sector. It was her dream Generally, I want to take people at their word. But I’m also to start a business of her own, and she did it. But again, she curious, and I have a job to do in the opposition, so I went didn’t have the foresight to see a pandemic coming the fol- and did a little research on that. lowing year. She’s not eligible for the small business recov- [4:20 p.m.] ery grant program because she hasn’t been in business for Te fact of the matter is that nothing could be further 18 months as of the date of application. How does that from the truth. B.C. is actually spending the least per cap- make sense? ita out of all major provinces when it comes to direct Let’s go to the other end of the spectrum. Tere’s an grants-in-aid. Direct grants-in-aid to small and medium- event business in the Comox Valley that has been around sized businesses in British Columbia are not the best in the for quite some time, been around for a decade and a half. country and not the most generous in the country, as the She writes to me, and she says: minister likes to say so ofen. “I applied for this grant on January 15. I’ve emailed twice to Ontario, to this point, has spent $507 per person on fnd out what’s going on with the application. I’ve received the basic grants-in-aid to business; Alberta, $485 per person; ‘we’re getting to know you’ responses. It’s been two months. If I’m Saskatchewan, $454 per person. British Columbia? British going to make it through this, I will need that grant now to prep for my summer season. Columbia, to this point, has invested $196 per person in “I’m in the event rental business, and if I don’t make enough grants-in-aid to small and medium-sized businesses. Now, in the summer, I won’t have anything to carry me through the the source of this information is important. I will disclose shoulder season. If I knew now that this government wasn’t going that the source is that bastion of free enterprise, that pro- to approve this application, I would seriously consider cutting my losses and close the business. I might, in that scenario, be able to capitalism, free market organization called the Canadian keep my house.” Centre for Policy Alternatives. What do we say to this business owner, again, in the Co- Tat’s the reality of what’s actually happening in this mox Valley? province. We have to do a heck of a lot better. Te saddest We’ve asked the government to implement the remain- reality are all the stories that we’re all continuing to hear. ing recommendations of the Tourism Task Force report, I read some into the record there, of businesses that are the most important of which, we’ve said, is that govern- really struggling and not sure they’re going to make it. ment needs to seriously put some relief on the table to help Every time I read social media or I get that email or phone businesses in the tourism sector with fxed costs. I’ve heard call from a business owner that says, “I’m done….” You from countless businesses, particularly hotels, that are get- know, it’s sad. It didn’t have to be this way. ting a property tax bill that in many cases is higher than Just yesterday, on the weekend, I profled a small busi- the actual revenue that that business has made or that that ness in Langley, Lisa’s School of Dance, in business for 35 hotel has brought in for the past year. Tat makes no sense. years. As soon as this season of dancing is over, she’s shut- ting her doors forever. Te lack of government support and the expediency of support is a signifcant reason why. Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 935

I want to know what’s in this $13.4 billion. I want to number, in the last update from StatsCan, had that at 6.9 make sure that there is appropriate and timely support for percent, but the hidden unemployment number for the people, for small businesses, for local governments and same period is 11.2 percent for this province. for all kinds of organizations in this province. Tat’s why Te hidden unemployment matters. It includes those we’re hesitating in just saying to the government: “Yeah, no that are unemployed, that 6.9 percent, plus all of those problem. Let’s just do this. We should be able to expedite thousands of people that have just…. Well, darn. Tey’ve the approvals on all this, just like we did back on March 23. given up. Tey’ve given up hope. Tere are no jobs in their Let’s just get her done.” We’re not going to do that. particular profession, in their feld, in their sector or in It has been fascinating to listen to members opposite their town, so they’ve given up. Plus, it includes all of those talk about the great job that the government has done over people that are working far fewer hours and/or far fewer the past four years but, in particular, through this pandem- shifs, so they’re underemployed. When you add those up, ic. I’ve heard comments like, “Unparalleled growth tak- we’re at 11.2 percent unemployment in this province. ing place in British Columbia,” and: “All of the jobs that I want to know: is there a jobs plan that’s attached to this were lost during the pandemic have been recovered.” My $13.4 billion supply bill that is in front of this House? Tat favourite comment from a member opposite was: “Our really matters. Te fnal piece I’ll say about jobs…. Again, credit ratings are incredible.” It must be an NDP economic these are the kinds of detailed topics or questions we’re miracle. It must be a miracle. going to get into in committee stage, but I think we can all Of course, none of the ability for members to trumpet agree that women and youth, especially women, have been the underlying foundation of fscal strength that this hit predominantly hard in this pandemic. Tey have been province has, albeit eroding rapidly, is owed to the previ- hit harder than men have. Women have lost two times as ous government — to the credit ratings that existed then, many jobs as men have, and women have recovered those the competitive tax structures we had in place, the bal- jobs at a much slower pace. anced budgets and the commitments to respecting the tax- Tere are all kinds of reasons why. Women tend to be payer’s money and stretching every dollar as far as we pos- the majority of those employed in sectors like hospitality, sibly could. Of course, none of it is owed to that. tourism and restaurants, and so forth, and there have been [4:25 p.m.] a lot of job losses in those sectors. Tere’s also a lack of Tey talk about their strong record of growth. I suppose access to the child care that women need. We profled that if you consider 23 new and increased taxes and the growth earlier today. Government promised 24,000 new child care in take from people, if that’s something that you’re proud spaces within three years, and they’ve delivered less than of, then go to town. If you’re proud of the massive expan- 4,000 in four years. I could go on. sion in the size of the government and the shrinking of the [4:30 p.m.] private sector in British Columbia that’s taking place right What we want to see, and what we want to know: is now, that’s your prerogative. there a plan to create good-paying, family-supporting “Jobs have all been recovered.” We hear that every other jobs, predominantly private sector, and with a particular day. But as I say, in response to the comments that are emphasis on women, youth and minorities? I can’t tell, ofen made by the government on the jobs picture in Brit- in looking at a 1⅓-page supply bill that’s in front of us ish Columbia: “Well, the devil is in the details.” It’s ironic here today. that there are, again, no details for us to sort through with Tere’s so much more. We could talk about housing, we respect to this supply bill, but the devil is usually in the could talk about mental health, we could talk about addic- details, and it certainly is on the jobs market in British Col- tion and the overdose crisis and the need for investments umbia. in areas all across the province — and talk about it in the Te jobs market is really sof. Te recovery of jobs, to context of not seeing it specifcally mentioned in this bill. this point, has been largely based on part-time jobs and Basically, operating from a place of being in the dark on a signifcant increase in the number of public sector jobs. this, not knowing. Since the pre-pandemic period, in February of 2020, part- I will not go there for today, other than to say there is a time jobs are up 17,000 positions. Part-time jobs are up tremendous amount of detail that we are going to be ask- 17,000; full-time jobs are down 33,000. Private sector jobs ing for. Tere’s a tremendous amount of detail that we’re are down 79,000 since February of 2020. But good news. going to be looking for with respect to what this $13.4 Public sector jobs are up by 63,700. I said the devil is in the billion is actually for. Is it going to go into the kinds of details. investments that are needed to create those good-paying private sector jobs? Is it going to help women recover their [N. Letnick in the chair.] job losses? Are these dollars going to help small businesses stay afoat? Are some of these dollars going to help to posi- I ofen talk about hidden unemployment, and we’re tion British Columbia for a strong, robust re-entry into the going to talk about it a lot more, because it really matters. world economy? Tere’s the more commonly referenced unemployment At some point, hopefully sooner than later, the doors 936 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021 are going to open. Is this government doing the work 10, interim supply. I did fnd it quite fascinating to listen now and making the investments needed now to make to many of my colleagues, certainly from the government sure that we’re able to take advantage of that the moment side of the House, speak to the heroic eforts of so many on it happens? Tat the businesses in particular, small and the front lines of the pandemic and the importance of con- mid-sized businesses, are going to be ready for that? I tinuing to ensure that workers continue to get paid while certainly hope so. we do our important work of putting together a budget I will say this. Tis supply bill that is in front of us today that takes into consideration the reality that we are still in is not normal. Any suggestion otherwise is just factually a pandemic and that we need to ensure that government inaccurate. Tis is not a normal process. I completely will continues to be there for people, for businesses and for give the newer members, those just recently elected and communities. are government members, the beneft of the doubt. I dis- I also found it fascinating to listen to the opposition covered when I arrived here eight years ago there is no inaccurately describe what this bill is about. I’ve noticed user manual for being an MLA. You just sort of absorb, just how quickly they have forgotten how frequently we you ask questions, and you fgure it out. I’m willing to have been updating British Columbians on our fnances. give a whole bunch of the frst-time members opposite the We have continued to report on government fnances beneft of the doubt on this. throughout this pandemic, always within legislated time Tere are a whole bunch of members over there that do frames and even when it was not a legislated requirement. know better. Tey do know what’s an accurate depiction of Last March we released our COVID-19 action plan, less what’s happening here. Tey do know what’s normal and than a week afer B.C. declared a state of emergency due what’s not normal when it comes to budget transparency to the pandemic, to help to ensure that people and busi- and accountability practices in this province. Tis is not it. nesses could get help immediately. Ten again, on July 14, Tis represents yet another weakening, another efort by we released an economic and fscal update to provide a this government to weaken our budget transparency and summary of COVID-19 spending and other measures to accountability rules. It doesn’t need to happen. Frankly, date, along with three economic and fscal scenarios for it’s an abuse of the long-standing rules and accountability British Columbia. Tis report was not required by law, but mechanisms that have been in place for a long time. we knew that it was important that British Columbians When we see that there’s no detailed accounting of see how government was responding to the pandemic and moneys approved, not just from last year’s budget but the what the future of our province could look like. $5 billion in March 23 of last year, the $2 billion sup- We released and reported out on public accounts on plementary ask that was approved in December…. When August 31, detailing government’s 2019-20 audited results we see that the government’s incompetence in supporting as a vital part of transparency and accountability. We small businesses is seemingly continuing…. When we see released our frst quarterly report on September 9, well how this government looks citizens in the eyes and tells within the legislated deadline, which was September 15. them that we’re doing a really good job of recovering all of In the frst quarterly report, we provided extensive these jobs that were lost when, in fact, most of those jobs details on the pandemic measures announced to date. are part-time or they’re public sector. Tey’re not private Afer Q1, we released the economic recovery plan, sector, and they’re not full-time. StrongerBC, to continue supporting people, businesses [4:35 p.m.] and communities through the pandemic and toward a When we see how many British Columbians have paid future economic recovery. In December, we released the the price for the Premier’s call of an unnecessary snap elec- fall economic and fscal update for 2020, which detailed tion — and all of the delays that that caused, the ripple over $10 billion in COVID-19 response and recovery efect of that through everything that government does — measures that are supporting people, businesses and you’ll have to excuse me and all of the members of the communities. opposition for not being inclined to, just on a whim, trust As government, we will continue to work from a this government with a blank cheque for $13.4 billion. foundation of transparency and accountability and report out to British Columbians as we move into eco- Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, I’ll call the nomic recovery together. question, then. Having said that, we need to remember that Bill 10 is for Minister, welcome. temporary funding, for three months, to cover expenses from April 1 to June 30, while the budget is presented and Hon. S. Robinson: Tank you very much, Mr. Chair. I debated. As the new budget will be presented on April 20, thought that there were a few other speakers, but I’m glad this request before the House is for temporary funding. It that I happened to be in the House so that I could close of is based on the estimates tabled last year in terms of calcu- debate on this bill. lating the total amount being advanced. I just want to take a moment to thank all the members Te purpose of how this money will be spent is already of the House who participated in second reading of Bill described in the various vote descriptions clearly laid out Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 937 in last year’s estimates. Tis includes Health estimates, Tird Reading of Bills Education estimates, estimates that provide social services to people throughout this province. Everything is BILL 4 — FIREARM VIOLENCE described in those estimates from last year. Tis bill before PREVENTION ACT the House continues those absolutely critical services while we continue our important work here in the Legis- Bill 4, Firearm Violence Prevention Act, read a third lature. time and passed. When I hear members from the ofcial opposition state that they are not in support of this supply bill, a supply bill Hon. M. Farnworth: Just awaiting the arrival of staf that has all the details in it, based on last year’s estimates, for committee on Bill 5. I move that we take a fve- or I want to know why they oppose spending on things like ten-minute recess, and then we will proceed to commit- education, as teachers continue to keep kids learning dur- tee stage. ing a difcult time, or why they oppose spending on child care, where workers are enabling parents to go to work and Deputy Speaker: Which one would you like, fve or ten? keep children safe. [4:40 p.m.] Hon. M. Farnworth: Do a ten, to be sure. It sounds to me that the B.C. Liberals oppose spending on health care workers who are undertaking the largest Te House recessed from 4:48 p.m. to 5:03 p.m. mass immunization program in our province’s history. Based on what I heard from the B.C. Liberals, they oppose [N. Letnick in the chair.] spending on the doctors and nurses and other health care workers who are making signifcant progress on eliminat- Hon. M. Farnworth: I call committee on Bill 5. ing the backlog of surgeries from the early months of this pandemic. On top of that, B.C. Liberals are opposed to Committee of the Whole House spending on long-term-care homes to support frail seni- ors. BILL 5 — INSURANCE CORPORATION British Columbians need their government to be there AMENDMENT ACT, 2021 for them. It’s why we’ve put in a yeoman’s amount of sup- (continued) ports for British Columbians. Tey continue to rely on these supports, and this bill ensures that those supports Te House in Committee of the Whole on Bill 5; continue to be there for British Columbians. N. Letnick in the chair. With that, I move second reading of Bill 10. Te committee met at 5:03 p.m. An Hon. Member: Division. On clause 2 as amended (continued). Deputy Speaker: Division has been called. Pursuant to a sessional order adopted on March 1, 2021, this division M. Lee: I just wanted to take us back, before the break, will be deferred until 30 minutes prior to adjournment this on this bill, to my last exchange with the minister about evening. the process between the fairness ofcer and the board of ICBC. Hon. S. Robinson: I ask for a fve-minute recess. When I asked the question relating to what that would look like for an individual complaint fled by a British Deputy Speaker: A fve-minute recess it is. Columbian, how that would be escalated and the matter of review under section 56 of clause 2, the minister con- Te House recessed from 4:41 p.m. to 4:46 p.m. frmed that it would be both, in terms of…. Te fairness ofcer has the ability to deal with the individual unfair- [N. Letnick in the chair.] ness, in terms of policies and procedures, and also has the authority to look at the potential systemic unfairness in Hon. M. Farnworth: I call third reading, Bill 4. policies and procedures. I’m trying to get some clarity and understanding about the nature of the fairness ofcer’s role, the relationship with the board, and when the fairness ofcer is to escalate individual complaints to the board. I’m quite curious as to how this is going to work. [5:05 p.m.] Te fairness ofcer, when they receive a complaint from 938 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021 an individual, may conduct the investigation under sec- fairness commissioner, “explaining ICBC treated his son tion 56 (1). Ten, the minister is suggesting, that individu- unfairly in alleging his son’s vehicle was involved in a al complaint would be taken up to the board. motor vehicle crash.” To the minister, has ICBC done an estimate as to the Te commissioner’s recommendations were: number of individual complaints that the fairness ofcer “ICBC’s initial investigation had found the son responsible for will be processing and escalating to the board, on an indi- the crash. Te son provided further information to ICBC to contest vidual basis? the initial decision. Upon further review, ICBC reversed its de- cision to hold the son responsible, issued a written apology and reimbursed certain costs the son had incurred. Hon. M. Farnworth: First, I just want to reconfrm that “Te fairness commissioner found that the initial investigation the fairness commissioner will investigate a complaint. by the corporation and the conclusion it reached was unfair in two Tey determine whether or not there is an issue there. If aspects. Te investigation was quite cursory and seems to have re- fected a bias against young drivers when cases of this sort arise…. there is no issue, then it does not go any further. “Te fairness commissioner found, while the initial decision of In fscal ’19-20, for example, there were 411 complaints ICBC is unfair, the corporate response was appropriate. In these to the fairness commissioner. All but 44 of them were circumstances, he concluded it did not require any further action resolved internally without the need for the fairness com- on the part of the corporation.” missioner to take them any further. Past practice is ofen Tat is an example. Tat’s one of the two cases that the an indication of future performance, and I think that’s member asked about. where we’re starting from. [5:15 p.m.] [5:10 p.m.] M. Lee: I really appreciate the minister taking the M. Lee: Just, perhaps, if we can look at the past prac- time to walk us through a specifc example. I know that tice…. I know that the member for Prince George–Mack- the Leader of the Tird Party, in the previous committee enzie spent quite a bit of time talking to the minister about session, also provided an example and invited the min- the past practice, the existing function within ICBC. ister to respond. Hearing the minister suggest that that might be a useful Te minister is quite correct. Past practice is somewhat exercise, perhaps I could then just ask the minister, for the helpful in this case, in this instance. beneft of the House here, to give us a sense as to the nature If we could just take this example from what I under- of the 44 complaints that were not resolved out of the 411, stood…. Here’s an example where an individual com- if that’s what I heard. So therefore, 44 would be escalated plained. You mentioned “son.” So perhaps there’s a par- to the board. ental relationship here involved. But there’s a complaint First of all, what was the general nature of those com- regarding…. Te words that I heard were “responsibility plaints? Secondly, how were they resolved by the board? for the crash.” Responsibility. And thirdly, what policies and procedures…? Here I’m Te challenge with this fairness ofcer arrangement making a jump, because this is the new system. Assuming under this bill, of course, is that there would be a change that I’m correct to think that the policies and procedures under section 57. Let me ask the minister: in this case, revisiting and correction and adjustment were the same using the example the minister just provided, would the mandate of the current structure, what policies and pro- fairness ofcer be able to make any comment or any cedures were changed as a result of the resolution of those recommendations under section 57? By my plain reading 44 complaints? of the bill as proposed, that fairness ofcer would be pre- cluded from making a comment or a recommendation Hon. M. Farnworth: I just want to further clarify for the relating to the fairness of the fault of the son as being member — a couple of points. First of, it’s not an escala- responsible or not responsible for the crash. tion, and it will not be an escalation. It is making a recom- To the extent that that individual had a complaint relat- mendation. ing to how ICBC determined his responsibility for the Of the 44 cases, the fairness ofcer investigated 42 of crash and the fairness — whether it was too quick and all them and found that no unfairness had, in fact, taken of that…. Under this bill, this fairness ofcer, under sec- place. Only two had been…. Ten recommendations tion 57, would not be able to make any comment or any would go to the board. recommendation relating to the fairness of that determin- ation to the board or to the corporation. Is that correct? M. Lee: Just a bit of clarity at the end. Only two were brought to the board. What happened with those two Hon. M. Farnworth: Te fairness commissioner com- complaints? ments on the process, not the outcome. Tat’s what this example is. He comments on the process. Tat’s what 57 is Hon. M. Farnworth: Recommendations were based all about, and that’s the same, going forward, in this partic- on the two. If the member wants, I can give him the ular piece of legislation. example, which is that the customer complained to the Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 939

M. Lee: Tank you to the minister for that response. Again, I think it’s very helpful for members of this Tis, I think, is really the main nub of the concern relating House, including my colleagues here, to understand how to the process. we separate the actual policies and procedures for fault Again, using this example — I think it’s a fair one to determination from the actual result itself. To the minister, use, given that it’s a live example that has been reviewed — if he could please clarify the distinction between the two. what policies and procedures relating to fault determina- [5:25 p.m.] tion were reviewed or found to be at issue in this instance or in this case? Hon. M. Farnworth: Tere are a couple of points I want to make, because I note that my hon. critic has made it a Hon. M. Farnworth: We don’t have that level of detail couple of times, and that is reference to the court decision. on the particular case, on the specifc case. But what I can Te fact is the CRT decision has no impact on enhanced tell you is that where the fairness commissioner looked at, care. It was related to the legislative changes, which I know he found, in the initial, that there were two areas of unfair- he’s aware of, that were made in April to the civil resolution ness. tribunal. Tere are two areas that are under dispute but [5:20 p.m.] one that is not, and that is the ability for the civil resolution One, he determined that the investigation was cursory tribunal to determine the entitlement of accident benefts. and that there may have been bias because the individual Tat brings us to the fairness ofcer. Tey are looking was a young driver. So he looked at the process. Tat’s what at a process that was used, not the outcome. Tis is not a he or she, they, are supposed to do. It is that process that challenge, to be able to distinguish process from outcome. they look at to determine whether or not it was fair or Courts do it all the time. ICBC has adjusters, people in unfair. there who determine what that fault is. Te critical area is that process, and that’s what the M. Lee: I think this is the challenge when we’re funda- fairness ofcer will look at, which brings me back to mentally changing the insurance system in this province the number of cases that I mentioned before — 411. Of and we’re relying down to, in the absence of a civil resol- those, 44 were examined by the fairness ofcer. As I said, ution tribunal that has been determined to be unconsti- there were 42 not unfair. Tere were two that showed tutional by the courts, the high bar on any ability of an how that worked, that process. Te others were referred injured British Columbian to bring any claim in the courts. back to the internal processes within ICBC and were Te criminal bar, that is. resolved at that level. We’re lef with the fairness ofcer. I’m hearing from the At the end of the day, they are dealing with that small minister that when you go to your insurance company, number who felt that they were treated unfairly. It gets to you’re giving a report on what happened in the accident. the fairness ofcer, and in many cases, it is an example Part of the reason for that, of course, is to determine who of…. It’s not the settlement; it’s that they felt they weren’t is responsible. Now, there’s also the importance of what heard. Tey weren’t treated properly. benefts, what coverage, you’re entitled to. But responsibil- [5:30 p.m.] ity and fault determination is a core element of this. Tat’s what that fairness ofcer will look at — as I said, Again, what I’m hearing from the minister is, in this and I’ve given the example of how that was outlined — and instance, the process was found to be cursory and perhaps then they make that recommendation to the board if they biased in light of the young age of the driver. believe a recommendation needs to be made. I am still asking the minister how you separate the policies and procedures that are to determine fault that [S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.] ICBC is following from the actual determination itself, because the steps that are being taken — let’s say cursory. M. Lee: In terms of the example that has been provided You get the incoming report, and the ICBC staf member around the number of past cases: 411, 44 and then two…. that’s looking at the report has determined that individual Tat is under the old regime, so to speak. Tis is now a looked at it in too short a time. Tere’s still a result of that new no-fault regime that’s coming into efect in about fve determination. If it’s a clear review where there’s clear evid- weeks, on May 1. ence and witnesses, I presume, there would be a clearer In looking at the bill and this particular clause 2, what’s determination in a fast manner. being suggested, of course, is that the restriction on jur- What is it that leads to the fairness concern? I would isdiction, on the fairness ofcer, would not preclude pro- suggest it’s the result. In the absence of being precluded cedures and policies that relate to fairness determinations from making any comment on the extent that the person relating to the amount payable by the corporation or the is responsible for an accident, or any recommendations, responsibility determination. you’re separating the result of the decision from the Perhaps we could go to further discuss the amount pay- policies and procedures that are intended to get to that able by the corporation. Perhaps I could just ask the min- determination. 940 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021 ister: what are the policies and procedures that will be util- Hon. M. Farnworth: Te fairness commissioner — and ized to determine the amount payable by the corporation? I’ll repeat again — has the ability to look at the process that determines the outcome. It’s not about the outcome. Te Hon. M. Farnworth: Under enhanced care, those are fairness commissioner does not comment on the outcome. set out by legislation and regulation. Tat was done in Bill What the fairness commissioner does, in examining the 11, so they are outside of the scope of this bill. Tat’s not processes and the procedures that went in play, may result what the fairness commissioner deals with. As I’ve stated, in a recommendation that could come out with a new out- and we’ve discussed, the fairness commissioner does not come or may come out with the same outcome. What the deal with those issues of amounts. fairness commissioner is concerned about is the fairness of process and procedure. Tat’s their role. M. Lee: Just to clarify. To the minister: is the fairness [5:40 p.m.] ofcer able to deal with the policies and procedures relat- ing to the determination of the amount payable by the cor- M. Lee: Just in the example the minister provided in poration? terms of the possibility that, as the fairness ofcer makes a recommendation relating to how policy or procedure Hon. M. Farnworth: Yes. was…. I think in the frst example he provided, it may be M. Lee: For the purpose of this debate, there is a divid- that it wasn’t the policy and procedure that was wrong, ing line between the powers and duties of the fairness that needed any changes. It was, actually, the execution ofcer relating to policies and procedures, and then there of that policy and procedure, where it was viewed to be is a fundamental restriction on the fairness ofcer’s juris- cursory, or there was some bias involved, for example. diction under section 57. Tat’s one example. [5:35 p.m.] Te second one, of course, is where there needs to be a In the absence of the minister’s willingness to talk about change in the actual policy and procedure, in which case what those policies and procedures are, we are lef with I would expect that under either one of those two altern- some lack of clarity in terms of talking about this particu- atives…. What the minister is suggesting is that there is a lar section, section 56. possibility that there would be a new outcome that would Let me come back to the process that the minister sug- be arising from the adjustment, either to the policy and gested, which was, were an individual complainant to have procedure, in the second case, or more appropriate execu- a concern relating to the fairness, and if that individual tion and following of the procedures and policies of ICBC. had a complaint relating to the amount that ICBC awarded In terms of new outcomes…. What will that process that complainant, that individual would not be able to look like, in terms of the board directing ICBC staf to make a complaint to the fairness ofcer. At least, the fair- rerun that process? If the minister can just walk us through ness ofcer would not be able to engage on consideration what that process will look like. of that determination. Is that correct? Hon. M. Farnworth: I’ll use the example that I provided Hon. M. Farnworth: No, the fairness commissioner to the member. Te fairness commissioner looked at that, does not engage on the amount. Te fairness commission- determined that there wasn’t unfairness and made a er engages on the process that was used in the determina- recommendation to the board. Tat resulted in a diferent tion of the amount. outcome for that individual. At the same time, the fairness commissioner may then M. Lee: Tat is consistent with some of the previous dis- say: “As a result of this case, I suggest ICBC review its cussion. policies in this area.” Tat may require, for example, addi- I guess the question is: how does the fairness ofcer tional training. Or the fairness commissioner may notice make that distinction when they’re not able to make any that as complaints come in, there seem to be a number of comment on the amount that is payable by the corpor- them that clearly indicate there is a systemic issue at play ation? If there are the policies and procedures for that here and, therefore, make a recommendation to the board determination that the fairness ofcer is able to review, that there needs to be some change in the policies and pro- are there not components of the amount, as that is struc- cedures because this keeps cropping up. tured and determined by ICBC, that will efectively form Tere’s a number of diferent ways in which they’re part of the amount? going to be able to ensure that fairness takes place but Where is the distinction between the elements for which also in terms of the recommendations that they make. Tis the review is being done, through these policies and pro- comes back to what we said earlier, in terms of the role, cedures, and the actual end amount itself? Is there not any which is to deal with the individual case. Tey also have restriction on the ability of the fairness ofcer to actually the ability to come forward with recommendations that review those components? Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 941 may, for example, deal with issues that emerge that appear frst of, they are going to be hired on the basis of a signi- to be of a systemic nature. fcant skill set requirement — will have the ability and the resources they need to set up their ofce in a way that will M. Lee: I appreciate that we’ve had the opportunity to be able to deal with the issues that arise in a situation of talk through what this looks like, in terms of the inter- change such as this. I have every confdence that the board action between the fairness ofcer and the board. We’ve will be able to deal with the recommendations that come walked through a number of diferent examples. I will turn from the fairness ofcer. to the length of time for the reliance of individuals on [5:50 p.m.] ICBC for their treatment and their benefts over the course Te report, as I’ve already outlined, is tabled here in this of their lives. House. It will be a public report. Just to probe this a little further, I’m quite concerned Te fnal comment I want to make on this…. Tis is about the lack of clarity, in terms of this government and something that I think is important, and that is that the how they’re proceeding with this ofce. We know that the CRT is also the other outlet. It is scaling up, and it will be Attorney General has said, as I’ve said before here, that ready May 1. It will be doing the work that it is going to do. what the government is trying to accomplish is peace of So that is there as well. mind for British Columbians — that they will be treated ICBC is absolutely aware of the importance of the fairly afer they’ve been injured. change that is taking place, working within the corpor- [5:45 p.m.] ation at the current time to ensure as smooth a process In the absence of decision-making authority by the fair- and transition as possible. Tere is a signifcant amount of ness ofcer to deal with the fairness complaint, which can- work that is being done, a signifcant amount of expertise not relate to the amount or the responsibility of the fault that will be in place to deal with issues or complaints as determination, we’re lef with policies and procedures. they arise. Te fairness ofcer is an important part of that Tose policies and procedures need to be — this is my transition, and the individual will have the requisite skill word — escalated to the board. set and resources to do that job properly. Te minister thought that wasn’t a good use of the word. But the thing is that every single complaint by an individu- M. Lee: I just want to come back to, as I mentioned al that is investigated by the fairness commissioner we’ve earlier, one comment that the minister did provide — I heard will either individually be brought to the board or it appreciate that this has been over a series of truncated or will be…. In a macro sense, there’s a pattern. Tere’s a pat- abbreviated sessions on committee, on this bill — in one of tern of some defcit in the policies and procedures of ICBC the responses relating to benefts. that are showing to be unfair, in the view of the fairness We know, of course, that under the no-fault regime, ofcer. there will be a lengthy time for which an individual, In either case, we’re talking about a massive shif in reli- injured British Columbian will need to rely on ICBC as ance, where British Columbians’ primary source of fair- their health condition, hopefully, improves, of course. We ness, or a review, is this Fairness Ofce. Past practice, with all want people to get better. Under the care of ICBC, there the 411 cases…. will be a great dependency on ICBC for reviewing and Clearly, although it’s good for discussion purposes, it’s ensuring that that ongoing care is received by that indi- not going to be the volume. With this massive shif that’s vidual British Columbian. happening here, one would expect, reasonably, that the Here, the minister made a comment — in relation to Fairness Ofce will likely be fooded with complaints, not this position being legislated and mandated in the way that necessarily because of the challenge with ICBC staf mem- it is under this bill — that this is a critical component of bers but because it’s a new system. It’s a new system that what happens on May 1 and how people can expect to be has no other outlets, no other opportunities to challenge, treated, in terms of receiving the care that they need, for as other than the Fairness Ofce. long as they need it. Tat’s a direct quote. Not to put too I would ask the minister: does he not see the concern much of a fne point on it, “…how people can expect to be as to how the ICBC board will function, in having to deal treated in terms of receiving the care that they need for as with these individual complaints as they’re tabled by the long as they need it.” Tat sounds like a reasonable state- fairness ofcer? How ofen will that review take place? Is ment by the minister responsible for ICBC. Tat would be that at their quarterly board meetings or more frequently a desired outcome here. than that? As we look at policies and procedures, and the restric- tion on amount, it causes me to wonder. In this case, in Hon. M. Farnworth: Te member is absolutely right. this scenario, where it’s really important that British Col- Tis is a shif to a new system. It’s a shif to a new system umbians can expect to receive the kind of care they need that is already in place in other provinces — notably, for as long as they can…. Again, the amount is determined Saskatchewan and Manitoba. of what an individual will receive from ICBC. Tat’s not We have every confdence that the fairness ofcer — just a moment-in-time determination. Tat is going to be 942 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 22, 2021 a determination that afects the care that that individual of this permanent impairment regulation in the case of will receive from ICBC as mandated, as authorized, for the injuries for British Columbians? length of that individual’s injury and, perhaps, for their entire life. Hon. M. Farnworth: As I’ve said and will say, frst of, To the minister, how will that work? Te policies and there is the civil resolution tribunal that has the ability to procedures that relate to amount determination can be determine the benefts that will be received. Te fairness looked at, but the amount cannot be commented on, or ofcer, as I have said numerous times now, comments on there can’t be any recommendations for the fairness ofcer. or investigates, or looks into, makes recommendations on What happens here? Does the minister not expect to see — however you wish to phrase it — the processes and the that there’ll be further complaints to the fairness commis- procedures that were involved, not on the outcome. sioner as to how that individual might be treated through If I hear the member’s question, I would also say that the course of their treatment plan, their care plan, from if there is a defnition or a beneft of — I don’t know — ICBC? Does this restriction not unduly restrict the ability for example, let’s say for the sake of argument, $500, and of the fairness commissioner to ensure fairness for that you’re asking, “Can the fairness commissioner say that individual? that should be $800?” the answer to that would be no, [5:55 p.m.] they can’t. I move the committee rise, report progress and ask leave Hon. M. Farnworth: We think that the legislation, as it’s to sit again. presented and as it’s written, does not unduly restrict the fairness ofcer in their determination of what is fair. Tey Motion approved. have the ability, for example, to ask, let’s just say, in the case of someone who was injured: “Are there any policies or Te committee rose at 6:02 p.m. procedures that may impact decisions, in terms of determ- ination?” Te House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Again, as I’ve repeated many times, the fairness ofcer does not comment on the outcome but on those policies Te Committee of the Whole, having reported and procedures. progress, was granted leave to sit again. In terms of the level of those benefts and the require- ments of what you need, that will be the physician and the Mr. Speaker: Members, pursuant to the sessional order, specialists. Te health care providers will be the determin- a deferred division will take place shortly on the motion ing factor on the level of care that you’re going to need. for second reading of Bill 10, Supply Act (No 1), 2021.Pur- suant to the sessional order, the House stands recessed M. Lee: I appreciate that, certainly, there will be a vari- until 10 minutes from now. ety of health practitioners involved in providing determin- ations to ICBC as to the benefts. Te House recessed from 6:04 p.m. to 6:14 p.m. Of course, as I noted in my second reading speech on this bill, as well, we have the beneft of 108 pages of regu- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] lation — the Permanent Impairment Regulation. Tere are lots of ways. Tat’s 108 pages, of course, of technical, dense Mr. Speaker: Members, the division will proceed in fve reading that deals with particular injuries, spinal and renal minutes. function, reproductive organ disruption, bladder impair- [6:15 p.m.] ment — the whole range, of course — loss of limb, eye injuries. All of that is amount determination. Second Reading of Bills When we’re talking about the complexity of traumatic injuries in motor vehicle accidents, which are life-chan- BILL 10 — SUPPLY ACT (No. 1), 2021 ging, no doubt the reliance on ICBC is going to be severe. (continued) Tat’s the reason why the detail that’s set out here…. What I continue to hear from the minister is that there’s a very Mr. Speaker: Members, we will now proceed with the limited scope in which the fairness ofcer makes any com- deferred division. Te question is second reading of Bill ment or ability, even on the beneft scheme, because there 10, Supply Act (No. 1), 2021. I would like to remind is a signifcant buildup by others within ICBC. all those members participating remotely to have your [6:00 p.m.] videos on, please. Let me just ask: in terms of this impairment regulation, [6:20 p.m. - 6:25 p.m.] are there any policies and procedures under which the fairness ofcer can make any comment on the application Second reading of Bill 10 approved unanimously on a division. [See Votes and Proceedings.] Monday, March 22, 2021 British Columbia Debates 943

Hon. S. Robinson: I move that the bill be committed to Motion approved. a Committee of the Whole House to be considered at the next sitting of the House afer today. Mr. Speaker: Tis House stands adjourned until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning. Bill 10, Supply Act (No. 1), 2021, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for Te House adjourned at 6:26 p.m. consideration at the next sitting of the House afer today.

Hon. M. Farnworth moved adjournment of the House.

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