journal des Débats

Commission permanente de la présidence du conseil et de la constitution Audition de personnes et d'organismes autochtones sur les droits et les besoins fondamentaux des Amérindiens et des Inuits (2) Le mercredi 23 novembre 1983 - No 167 Table des matières

Bande amérindienne de Kahnawake et Comité des droits territoriaux des Haudenosaunis B-9293

Bande amérindienne de Kanesatake (Oka) B-9317

Association des Inuits du Labrador B-9327

Inuit Tungavingat Nunamini B-9339

Administration régionale Kativik B-9353

Intervenants

M. Réal Rancourt, président

M. René Lévesque M. Roland Dussault M. Pierre de Bellefeuille M. Guy Chevrette M. Denis Lazure M. Denis Perron M. John Ciaccia M. Cosmo Maciocia Mme Joan Dougherty Mme Thérèse Lavoie-Roux * M. Billy Two Rivers, Bande amérindienne de Kahnawake et Comité des droits territoriaux des Haudenosaunis * M. Franklin Williams, idem * M. Brian Deer, idem * M. Paul Delaronde, idem * Mme Myrtle Bush, idem * M. Charlie Patton, idem * M. Mike Myers, idem * M. Dennis Nicholas, idem * M. Bruce Elijah, idem * M. Bob Antone, idem * M. Joseph Norton, idem * M. Gerry Pelletier, Bande amérindienne de Kanesatake * Mme Diane Sorka, idem * Mme Frances Williams, Association des Inuits du Labrador * M. Enoch Obed, idem * M. Veryan Haysom, idem * M. Paulusi Sivuak, Inuits Tungavingat Nunamini * M. Tamusi Kumak, idem * M. John Utamak, idem * M. Eliyassi Sallualuk, idem * M. Josepie Keleutak, Administration régionale Kativik * M. Charlie Watt, idem * M. Mark Gordon, idem * M. Paulosie Padlayat, idem * M. Willie Makivic, idem * M. Georges Filotas, interprète B-9293

(Dix heures onze minutes) Bande amérindienne de Kahnawake et Comité des droits territoriaux des Haudenosaunis Le Président (M. Rancourt): Bonjour. Nous allons commencer la séance du M. Deer (Brian): Mr. Chairman, I have mercredi 23 novembre 1983 de la commission been asked to clarify that there are two élue permanente de la présidence du conseil delegations here. One of them is the Band et de la constitution qui a pour mandat Council of Kahnawake representing the d'entendre les représentations des Mohawk community of Kahnawake, on my autochtones et des divers groupes et left hand side; there are six persons. The organismes autochtones sur les droits et les other delegation is the Land Rights besoins fondamentaux des Amérindiens et des Committee of the Haudenosaunee Inuits. Confederacy, also known as the Iroquois Les membres de la commission sont: M. Confederacy, and it is on my right hand Perron (Duplessis), M. Chevrette (Joliette), side. This delegation represents one M. Dussault (Châteauguay), M. Ciaccia particular community. This other delegation (Mont-Royal), M. Lévesque (Taillon), M. represents an entire confederacy of six Lafrenière (Ungava), M. Morin (Sauvé), Mme nations, including twenty-one communities. Lavoie-Roux (L'Acadie), M. Maciocia (Viger), The two delegations are here out of a M. Bisaillon (Sainte-Marie), M. Brouillet common concern for our people, the (Chauveau), M. Bordeleau (Abitibi-Est), Mme Haudenosaunee, also known as the Iroquois. Dougherty (Jacques-Cartier), M. de Even though we are two distinct delegations, Bellefeuille (Deux-Montagnes), M. Gratton we are here together in a spirit of (Gatineau), M. LeMay (Gaspé), M. Rivest cooperation. (Jean-Talon), M. Saintonge (Laprairie). It is customary among the Il y a aussi M. Lazure, du comté de Haudenosaunee people that, whenever there Bertrand. Je m'excuse, c'est la deuxième fois is a meeting such as this one, we go through que je l'oublie. some formalities, the first one being the opening ritual, the second one being our greetings to your people and the third one Une voix: Jamais deux sans trois. being our greetings to your people and the third one being our condolence, the first M. Lazure: II y a un problème, M. le three strings of the condolence. Président. The opening ritual is the thanksgiving for all the things that are around us. So, at Le Président (M. Rancourt): D'accord. this time, the opening ritual will be done by Je déclare la séance ouverte. Nous allons Paul Delaronde and it will be interpreted vous donner l'ordre du jour jusqu'après la afterwards by Dennis Nicholas. période des questions. Je vais demander la collaboration de tous pour rester à l'intérieur M. Delaronde (Paul): (S'exprime dans sa du temps qui nous a été alloué. langue)

Auditions Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le député de Châteauguay. Ce matin, nous allons entendre la Bande amérindienne de Kahnawake et le M. Dussault: M. le Président, est-ce Comité des droits territoriaux des possible de demander à nos invités de nous Haudenosaunis. De 14 heures à 15 heures, expliquer brièvement - cela serait nous entendrons la Bande amérindienne de sympathique - le sens du rituel que nous Kanesatake et, après la période des questions avons eu l'occasion de voir et d'entendre jusqu'à 18 heures, l'Association des Inuits du dans les dernières minutes? Labrador. Donc, je donne la parole à la Bande Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le amérindienne de Kahnawake, en demandant à député de Mont-Royal. son représentant de se nommer et de nous présenter les gens qui l'accompagnent. M. Ciaccia: Si le député de B-9294

Châteauguay avait écouté au début, il saurait pour une raison et nous devons les protéger. que tout ce qui sera dit dans la langue des Nous sommes conscients de vivre en Haudenosaunis sera traduit subséquemment harmonie avec nos frères et soeurs du monde par un des interprètes. animal. Nous nous recueillons et nous rendons grâce pour tous les animaux qui existent et M. Dussault: M. le Président, si on veut nous savons très bien que certaines espèces bien m'excuser, ce que je veux surtout ont disparu. Nous ne les avons pas oubliées, savoir, c'est le sens de ce que l'on a même aujourd'hui. Nous nous recueillons donc entendu et pas uniquement la traduction. et nous rendons grâce pour tous les animaux qui se sont trouvés sur la terre. M. Deer: The opening ritual is done at Nous parlons des oiseaux. L'aigle est every gathering or meeting of any sort, l'oiseau le plus important pour notre peuple. whether it is a social dance or a meeting of Il fait figure de signe. L'arbre de la paix chiefs and councils or a festival or a fait partie de la grande loi qui régit notre meeting such as this. The interpretation of conduite entre nous. L'aigle se trouve en that opening ritual will now be done by haut de cet arbre. Il monte la garde et nous Dennis Nicholas. avertit s'il voit un danger. Recueillons-nous donc et rendons grâce pour tous les oiseaux M. Nicholas (Dennis): Je vais faire mon du monde. Nous savons qu'il y en a qui sont possible pour faire cela comme il faut. La disparus, mais nous les mentionnons encore première chose que font deux personnes qui dans nos cérémonies. Nous ne les avons pas se rencontrent chez nous, c'est de rendre oubliés. Rendons grâce qu'il en soit ainsi. grâce au Créateur de tous les bienfaits qu'il Nous disons qu'il y a deux soleils dans a dispensés sur la terre. Donc, au moment le ciel. Le premier est (il s'exprime dans sa où nous sommes tous réunis ici, nous langue). C'est l'homme, le soleil mâle. Il ne viendrons exprimer l'espoir que, chez nous, peut jamais faire défaut ou être en retard. Il nos familles se portent bien et que les agit de façon que nous puissions voir jusqu'à nouvelles sont bonnes. Pour ces bonnes l'horizon et autour de nous toutes les bonnes nouvelles, recueillons-nous et rendons grâce. choses que le Créateur nous a données. Nous voulons également parler du sol Recueillons-nous donc et rendons grâce pour sur lequel nous nous trouvons: de notre toutes ces bonnes choses qui ont été données sainte mère la terre, donc de l'importance pour une raison. Nous le savons et nous du Créateur pour notre peuple. Nous lui rendons grâce à notre frère aîné, le soleil. sommes reconnaissants de tout ce qu'il nous La nuit, nous rendons grâce à notre a donné. Nous considérons la terre comme grand-mère la lune. Pour tout ce que nous une sainte mère qui répand tous ses bienfaits avons mentionné, il y a un mâle et une quotidiennement et conserve nos familles en femelle, chez les plantes, chez les animaux, bonne santé. Recueillons-nous et rendons chez les arbres, chez les poissons. Notre grâce à notre mère la terre. grand-mère la lune a reçu pour mission de Nous parlons de remèdes. Chaque fois veiller sur toute la vie femelle du monde, de que nous sortons de nos maisons et que nous veiller à ce que nous comprenions le sens de franchissons la porte, nous avons des remèdes ce qui nous entoure. C'est elle, comme devant nous. Nous avons des gens parmi nous toutes les autres femmes, qui contrôle les qui ont reçu le pouvoir d'aider les autres générations futures de toutes les espèces. avec les remèdes. Ces remèdes sont dans C'est par elle que nous savons calculer les l'herbe et dans les buissons, dans les arbres mois et que nous savons quand concevoir, partout autour de nous. Seulement quelques- donner naissance, donner la vie, perpétuer uns parmi nous les connaissent et savent s'en l'espèce. Recueillons-nous donc et rendons servir. Recueillons-nous maintenant et grâce à notre grand-mère la lune. rendons grâce pour toutes ces bonnes choses Nous voulons également mentionner les qui se trouvent encore dans la nature étoiles et le ciel parce que c'est dans les aujourd'hui. Qu'il en soit ainsi. étoiles et le ciel qu'est écrite notre histoire. Nous parlons des arbres qui nous Les Anciens nous disaient que, si nous entourent, encore une fois. Nous voyons les scrutons les étoiles, elles nous indiquent les bourgeons sortir. Nous considérons que le moments précis pour mener nos cérémonies. premier des arbres est l'érable parce qu'il Notre peuple se conforme encore à cette nous donne du sucre au moment où monte la directive aujourd'hui. Il y a des gens chez sève. À ce moment-là, nous prenons un jour nous qui savent interpréter la langue des et nous avons des cérémonies d'action de étoiles. C'est toute notre histoire qui s'y grâce. Ces cérémonies sont faites encore trouve et qui nous est révélée. Recueillons- aujourd'hui. Pour tous les arbres du monde nous donc et rendons grâce aux étoiles qui aussi, nous nous recueillons et nous rendons ne s'écartent jamais de la mission qui leur a grâce. été donnée. Nous les remercions d'être ainsi. (10 h 30) Nous rendons également grâce aux II y a les animaux: les quadrupèdes sont orages qui viennent du coucher du soleil. Ils nos frères et soeurs. Ils nous ont été donnés apportent les pluies qui fécondent la terre et B-9295 qui sont l'origine de toute vie. Nous avons Lorsqu'elles ont su que nous venions ici, elles reçu une très lourde responsabilité. On dit ont dit également: Nous voulons envoyer nos qu'à une époque il y avait de gigantesques voeux de bonne santé et nos bons souhaits animaux qui parcouraient la terre. Nous aux femmes de leur peuple. Par conséquent, avons demandé à nos ancêtres de les aujourd'hui, voilà le message que nous vous ensevelir dans la terre, ce qu'ils ont fait. Un transmettons. jour, nous ne pourrons plus rendre grâce aux Parmi nos gens également, lors de nos orages. On dit qu'à ce moment-là la terre cérémonies et selon nos coutumes, nous s'entrouvrira et que ces gigantesques animaux avons ce que nous appelons les gardiens de seront de nouveau libres. la foi qui voient à ce que les cérémonies se Les dangers qui menacent le monde déroulent bien, qui nous rappellent toutes les actuellement ne sont rien en comparaison de choses importantes dont il faut tenir compte. ce qui se produira à ce jour. Nous sommes Il s'agit d'hommes et de femmes de tous les donc sur la terre pour une raison. Nous ne âges. Eux aussi, lorsqu'ils ont entendu dire l'avons jamais oublié. Nous avons toujours que nous venions ici, ont dit: Nous voulons nos cérémonies. Nous continuons de rendre que vous transmettiez notre message et nos grâce au tonnerre dès que nous l'entendons. voeux de bonne santé, nos bons souhaits, aux Recueillons-nous et rendons grâce qu'il en personnes ici qui ont des postes de soit ainsi. confiance, à la fois aux hommes et aux Nous en arrivons au Créateur lui-même. femmes. C'est pourquoi, à ce moment-ci, il Nous disons que, là où il se trouve, nous ne est possible que vous entendiez ce message pouvons voir son visage. Même si nous ne qu'ils vous ont envoyé. pouvons voir son visage, il nous a donné la De plus, nos gens qui n'occupent pas de responsabilité de veiller sur tout ce qu'il poste, des hommes et des femmes de tous nous a prodigué; par conséquent, jusqu'à ce les âges dont certains n'arrivent jamais à des jour, c'est ce que nous faisons de notre postes élevés, sont les pivots de notre mieux. Recueillons-nous et rendons grâce au nation. Lorsqu'ils ont entendu dire que nous Créateur qui a rendu tout cela possible. Qu'il venions ici, ils ont dit aussi: Nous voulons en soit ainsi! envoyer nos bons souhaits. De nouveau, aujourd'hui, nous avons ces gens qui Le Président (M. Rancourt): Merci, M. n'occupent pas des postes élevés, à la fois Nicholas. des hommes et des femmes de tous les groupes d'âge, qui vous envoient ce message; M. Deer: At this time we would like to vous pouvez l'entendre. Il s'agit de souhaits give our greetings from our people, the de bonne santé et de bons voeux. Haudenosaunee, also known as "les Iroquois", to your people. The greetings will be done in M. Elijah: (S'exprime dans sa langue). the Oneida language by Bruce Elijah and it will be interpreted by Dennis Nicholas. M. Nicholas (Dennis): Et nos enfants qui courent partout, qui commencent à se M. Elijah (Bruce): (S'exprime dans sa traîner par terre ou qui sont au berceau, langue). eux aussi, lorsqu'ils ont entendu dire que nous venions ici, ont dit qu'ils voulaient vous M. Nicholas (Dennis): Nous voulons, à transmettre leurs voeux de bonne santé et ce moment-ci, vous dire que, lorsque nos leurs bons souhaits. Ils ont dit: Nous sommes leaders, et les chefs traditionnels de notre certains que les gens à qui vous allez parler nation ont entendu dire qu'il était possible ont également des enfants et des petits- que nous venions faire un exposé, ils ont enfants. Nous espérons que leurs convoqué les gens à une grande réunion. Les préoccupations seront les mêmes. Nous le leaders et les chefs ont donc déclaré qu'ils disons et avons ces paroles à l'esprit pour adressaient leurs salutations aux personnes les générations à venir. Par conséquent, à ce que nous allions rencontrer. Ils vous envoient moment, vous pouvez entendre le message donc leurs voeux de bonne santé et de qu'ils vous envoient. courage afin que nous puissions nous recueillir. Ils nous ont dit: Lorsque vous M. Elijah: (S'exprime dans sa langue). serez là-bas, nous espérons qu'ils pourront entendre notre voix, connaître nos M. Deer: At this time, Mr. Chairman, préoccupations au sujet de leur santé. Voilà we would like to offer the first three strings donc le message que nous transmettons de la of the condolence to be done again in part de nos leaders. Oneida by Bruce Elijah and to be translated (10 h 45) by Paul Delaronde. M. Elijah: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Elijah: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Nicholas (Dennis): Aussi, les mères de nos clans, qui sont à la tête de nos M. Delaronde: What Mr. Elijah has said nations, sont celles qui choisissent les chefs. is that when our leaders had heard that we B-9296

were coming to this meeting, to this work. That is the third message that the gathering, they believed that this was a very people have sent. important meeting, that this was a very special meeting and that, when we can come M. Deer: Now that the formalities have to gather with you, we should take with us been completed, we would like to go into the first three strings of the Wampum; that our presentation and, again, we would like to these words and these ways were given to us emphasize the fact that there are two by our Creator; that these were the symbols delegations here with us. We want you to and he begun with that we have been given understand the significance of these two water, very cold water, clear water, clean delegations. The delegation on the right hand water from the coldest Spring; and that with side, the Band Council of Kahnawake, is a this water that we would all drink together, Canadian entity. I believe that the Band this will help to clear our throats so that we Council will give you a presentation may speak good words, that we may speak concerning the problems that the Community smooth words; and that it will help to clear of Kahnawake has had when a Canadian our minds so we could have a good meeting, entity, the Band Council, has been imposed so we could have a good understanding. And on a community that already has its own so this is the first string, the first message, traditional government. They will outline the the first symbol of the Wampum. problems that we have concerning that. On the right hand side, is the Land M. Elijah: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Rights Committee of the Confederacy of the (11 heures) Haudenosaunee which under international law M. Delaronde: He has then said that it is sovereign constitutionally. The Confederacy was the people who felt that it was of the Haudenosaunee is constitutionally important that we come with the second sovereign in the international world. The symbol. The second symbol is a feather, a significance of these two delegations is that, very soft white feather. With this white in the past three years, there has been a feather, with this soft feather, it will help great deal of cooperation that has been to clean our ears so that we could hear the going on between the traditional people and words clearly, that you could hear our words between the Band Council, so that we may clearly, and that, by hearing these words in sort out our affairs in our various a clear and a good way, it would help us in communities within the Iroquois Confederacy. our thinking, it would help us all to come to So, at this time, the Mohawks Band a good understanding, it would helps us all Council of Kahnawake will introduce its to come to good decisions. So, this is the delegation and will make its presentation. second symbol that has been sent to us. And it is a very important symbol because, again, M. Norton (Joseph): Thank you. My the Creator has given us this symbol. He has name is Joseph Norton. I am the chief given us these ways. And it helps us, not spokesman on behalf of the Kahnawake only in this counsel, but in our every day Community. On my left. I have chief Billy life so that we would always have open ears, Two Rivers. To my right, chief Ida Goodleaf, clear ears so that we could have a clear chief Myrtle Bush, chief Franklin Williams mind, a good mind and to do what the and chief Eugène Montour. Creator has intended for us. As you are aware, we have submitted a brief that was previously used with the M. Elijah: (S'exprime dans sa langue) subcommittee on Indian self-government, a federal body that was put together and that M. Delaronde: Next message. The next went across Canada to interview, review thing that was sent was the third string. submissions from various Indian and Native This message also comes from the people, groups across this country. We will not read from the leaders. They sent with us the that particular document here today, that symbol of the finest and the softest nice has been submitted to you for your general white leather that would help to clean our information. I gather everyone has read and eyes, all was gathered here, so that we absorbed what was in that material. So, if could see properly that there would be you wish to ask questions on that, we will nothing to obstruct what is going on here also be prepared to answer to that. I will be today, that our eyes may see the good in quite brief as there are several members of what has to be done; and that, with clear our Council here who wish also to make eyes, we may see what is best for the statements. people, for the children and for the ones I have no written statement here, in who are not here yet. This, again, was given front of me; so I will speak from what is in to us by our Creator. Those things are very my mind and in my heart. I am quite new in important to us. Indeed, it should be very the area of the problems that surround important to you who are listening because Kahnawake ans in having the full knowledge we are working for the future, for the of the relationship between the province of generations. We are working the Creator's Québec and the Kahnawake community. B-9297

As we all know and realize, Kahnawake representatives in those particular areas. has had several centuries of contact with the Everything that is discussed in this non-Indians, be it the French, be it the building on a day-to-day basis has some English, be it the Dutch and be it whoever. impact or some reflection on our way of We have had quite a history and experience life. We are fortunately or, in some cases, in our relationship with the various unfortunately within an urban area. We are governments that have come into being, be surrounded by approximately 6 000 000 non- it provincial or federal. Indian people. We have to live with that Presently, I can only speak from within reality and so do you have to live with that the last two years that I have been sitting reality that we are in that proximity. We as a representative of our community. As have been constantly encroached upon by was mentioned by Mr. Deer, we are but one various - I can only term them as such - community in several communities in Canada impositions: Caisson Point, the international and in United States that make up the seaway that passed through our territory and Iroquois Confederacy. We are in a took a large chunk of our land; major transitional period. We have faced many highways, major thorough fares, where we problems in the past and we will face many have had to put up with anywhere between more problems in the future. We have always 55 000 to 60 000 cars per day that have been cast in a rôle as being dissident or split our territory; major hydro lines that being unreasonable or being outright radicals have divided our territory again; major but there are very many reasons behind railways that have divided our territory. We those, that type of positions that we have seem to be in a proximity where there are taken. major lines of communication, be they transportation, telephone, hydro that have I can sit here for the rest of the day been imposed within our territory. I would and explain to you all the various things that say it has always been done under pressure, have happened, all the problems that have with the Government standing there with the arisen between our community and the Almighty hammes saying: Either you accept surrounding communities and also the or you get hit. Provincial Government. I am sure that the (11 h 15) members of the Council here sitting before you today would add some of their problems. We no longer will sit still for that type So I will just discuss in general the areas of so-called negotiation or consultation, be it that we are presently making quite clear to with the Federal or the Provincial level. the Provincial Government, that is that they This, you must understand. It is very have to come to an understanding that there difficult for me to try and compact will no longer be any impositions. We are at everything into one short presentation. a point in time when we no longer view Therefore, I will conclude and pass on to my ourselves as being wards to any government. colleagues here at the table with this With the Canadian Constitution and statement that we have heard yesterday and with the particular movements of Québec in last night to the various other groups that its aspirations, we see ourselves in a very sat here and made presentations to you, that unique position, being that Québec has taken you are willing to represent the Native the stand that it will not endorse the population at the next First Ministers Canadian Constitution. That could be in our Conference. You are willing to offer to favour. Now, it depends on the type of Canada your protection of the Native people relationship that we wish to set up between here in Québec. You are willing to support ourselves and Québec. You have to and represent your Native people, but you understand, as outlandish or idealistic as it must understand that if we sit here before may seem, that we view ourselves as part of you and say that we are nations, and if we the Mohawk Nation that has the right, that sit here before you and say that we will has not given up the right to its nationhood, exercise our rights, then only us, only we that has not given up the right to its self- can do that representation if we choose to determination. do so. No one else can do that, not fairly, not correctly, not morally and not justly. So Legally, we have never signed any you must totally understand that if we may document that has abrogated that right. stand alone out of all of Canada, not only Those rights are still there. What has the province of Québec, then that is what happened is that we have failed to exercise we have to do, to prove that there are still those rights and it is time, as complex and people in North America who believe they as difficult as it may seem, for us to start are human beings; and that is what we are. exercising those rights. That is where we come into conflict with the province be it in So with that I will conclude. Thank you education, be it in justice, be it in health, very much for this opportunity to speak be it in anyone of those fields. Those of you before you. sitting here know this very well because we have had some contact with, if not all of Le Président (M. Rancourt): Thank you you then some of you, or your chief Norton. B-9298

M. Williams (Franklin): My name is we will call an end to the colonial Franklin Williams, a member of the Mohawks legislation of the Federal Government and Council of Kahnawake. I have a number of his agent, the Department of Indian Affairs. points to deliver. I would like to thank you In the accumulation of our objectives we will for inviting us here. I hope to have an not allow he Government of Québec to interesting discussion afterwards. I would like become the next Indian Affairs Department to say that, as a member of the Mohawk nor will we accept the creation of a Council of Kahnawake, we are elected under Provincial Indian Affairs to administer over the Indian Act and under its legal the lives of Mohawks of Kahnawake. In interpretations. We are nothing but a crazy effect, as remove the burden of the imposed legal entity, when it suits the purpose of the federal laws and legislation, we will not Federal Government. In its eyes we exist allow the Québec Government or the only as an administrate arm of its agent, the Provincial Government to fill the vacuum as Department of Indian Affairs. Contrary to has been done under section 88 of the Indian their narrow definition and interpretations of Act which states in brief that the provincial our role, we are Mohawk people who have laws of general application apply. retaken jurisdiction in many areas of the If Québec wishes to make laws related internal workings of our community. We are to Indian nations in Québec, another request in the process of reestablishing, through of particuler Indian nations, the Mohawks of consultation with our people, the government Kahnawake must be excluded. We believe that respects the constitutions of our that the Government of Québec, within the ancestors. That government will be decided Canadian Confederation, can well understand upon by the will of the Mohawk people of our position as we do not wish for universal Kahnawake. It will not be decided or policies or laws to be imposed upon by any imposed by an external order of government. order of government but our own, just as a Our immediate role as an elected band federal policy or will cannot be imposed council, is to serve as the vehicle in order upon the Provincial Government by the to facilitate the objectives of our people in Federal Government. reestablishing the recognition of self government in Kahnawake. We believe that with firm resolve we can work and devise the appropriate forum In effect we are an instrument which for discussion so that both cultures will interacts with all levels of government in continue to coexist in peace, harmony and the political forum with the objective of friendship. Honorable members, thank you for taking back jurisdictions that the great white the opportunity and the courtesy in inviting father in Ottawa gave to the Québec us here and may I also extend an invitation Government without the consultation nor the to all of you to come down to Kahnawake. consent of the Mohawks of Kahnawake. Thank you. Our goal is to establish rapport with the Government of Québec in order to devise Le Président (M. Rancourt): Thank you, an appropriate forum for discussion. M. Williams. Somebody else? Recently, as our grand chief pointed out, we have had discussions with various Québec Mme Bush (Myrtle): I am chief Myrtle ministers on matters where your society Bush and I have just five very short points infringe upon our territory and upon the which, I guess, reiterate what the other two rights of the Mohawks of Kahnawake. We have said. I think it is important that the believe that the time is right for further elected council speaks very clearly on this. discussions on an ongoing basis. We further We have presented a paper which we believe that such a process must be had prepare for the Federal Government formalized in order to insure subsequent outlining all of our grievances to them under governments of Québec recognize the their imposed legislation. We were going to autonomy of the Mohawks of Kahnawake, for read it here and simply state that it would we have lived on these lands you call apply as well to Provincial Government in Québec, Canada, North America from the the areas. It is unnecessary to read this dawn of time and will remain as a Mohawk paper because the traditional people have people for at least that same time span. prepared a lenghty paper and have used the Our purpose here today is not to same, so it is not necessary for us to read negotiate nor concede any of the rights the out. I want to mention just five points which Great Spirit has been bestowed upon the are important. Franklin and Joe, both look to Mohawks of Kahnawake. But rather to inform them too. and advise the Government of Québec that I just want to say that the vacuum you must cancel legislation that have an created by the absence of federal legislation impact and infringe upon the rights of the cannot be filled by provincial law. We have Mohawks of Kahnawake. laws in our own constitution and that is In concluding, Honorable members of what we are prepared to use. We do not ask the National Assembly, we also advise that that the Provincial Government write any we are in a process in which, over a decade, legislation for us. We only ask that you aid B-9299 us by removing your laws, so that ours can across borders, we have a problem. We have apply. a problem with the Provincial Government The second point that I want to make because they insist that our men have is that we have tabled the positions on our provincial licence plates on cars when our grievances in relation to the Federal men spend most of their working years Government. We have listened for an entire working in the United States, have purchased day, yesterday, to the Crees outlining the their cars there, have got to have licences problems that they have come up to because to drive there. When they come home to of the James Bay Agreement which is their reserve and to their families, they are supposedly a model for settling Native land harassed because they have not got a claims. For one entire day, the Crees were provincial plate on their car. That is just a able to seat here and justify all of the small area. problems that have been created because of We could outline any number of areas that. I think it only shows very clearly that that we have problems with: language laws the solution lies not with provincial are for Native nurses. Native nurses were legislation and not with federal legislation prepared only to nurse in Native hospitals. In but a legislation that the Native people order to get a licence, they are required to themselves had been able to develop. What prove that they are proficient in French, but they need from the province and from the in the Indian reserves and our reserve, Federal Government is just the assistance in French is not one of the languages which we allowing them the freedom to implement feel is necessary to have in the hospitals. their own legislation. Most of our elderly people have Mohawk or They have already mentionned that we English as a second language. So, that has have problems in our community because of been a problem. And the thing is always that section 88 and where the Federal we cannot have your laws, they do not fit Government allows the provincial jurisdiction our culture. to apply. Our hospitals, for example, without The fourth point I want to make is going in lenghty details and I am sure that that we do wish to establish a good Minister Johnson can tell you about that. We relationship with the Québec Government have been trying to get an hospital built for because we live as neighbours. We are not 20 years. There was federal money which here to ask that the province give anything come to the provinces which are for to us but only that our own government hospitals and Native people are entitled to system be not hindered but helped by your their own hospitals and hospital care. 20 government. years it did go and we did not get it. The fifth point is that we who are Kahnawake was the only place that had an elected chiefs are not in a different camp hospital; our building is old and dangerous. from our brothers the traditionalists. We We had minister after minister come and come from the same root, we go on the look at it. Everyone has told us that if it same path and we go to the same was in their own communities, it would not destination, and all of our people in our be acceptable. They agree that the money community go with us together. It is will be there. Treasury Board has already necessary that some of us act as the buffer approved it. We have one problem. They do or the neutral zone between the outside not consider us to be a legal entity. We are governments and their imposed laws and our an Indian community, they are insisting that peoples, so that we could survive and so that we have provincial law applied before they is our role as elected council. will allow these federal and provincial dollars It is we who are faced daily with the coming from the resources of Native people, imposed laws and conditions, not because we the land of resources, before they will allow believe in your system but because the time us money to rebuilt the hospital. They wish had not come for you to listen to us. But to have an assurance that the provincial law now, we think that the time has come. will apply and we cannot allow this. Consequently, we have an hospital which is in terrible condition. Le Président (M. Rancourt): Who takes the opportunity to talk now? Please, could In the areas of justice, particularly in you give your name? family law, family and property matters, Native people have customary ways of M. Two Rivers (Billy): Sure, Billy Two settling family problems. We are forced to Rivers, from Caughnawaga. I feel pretty bad go to an outside court with that. We are that the table is not complete. There are a forced in property matters which should only few faces missing. I would have hoped that be of Indian and federal jurisdiction, we are everyone felt that it was important enough forced into settlements of land, divorces or to call this meeting and to be able to attend disputes to go to a provincial court. We this meeting in its totalness. It is sad that cannot resolve this in our own way, with our everybody cannot take the proper time to own customary court. devote to these gatherings. I feel bad that In the areas of our right to freedom your Premier is not here and also that a lot B-9300 of our Native people are not here. protection under the Province of Québec's I feel that there is a lot of things that Constitution, then this Government should are not being said properly, that are not tell the Indian peoples who want this being tabled at the moment. I do not have protection that they become citizens of the much equipment or means, I am getting my State of Québec, citizen of this Province, or points across to this commitee. I just have whatever you want to call it, but do not go just one and I hope that it will sustain me on with the deception of trying to tell the through my entire presentation, that is what Indian peoples: Yes, you are Indians, we are I believe to be the thuth. protecting your culture, we are doing this, (11 h 30) we are doing that when, all the time, all I have had a lot of problems or seen a you have in your mind is to steal the land lot of problems with Indian peoples. And all from the Indian people. our problems seem to stem from your If we want to be straight and we want society. Unfortunately, I think one of the to be straight forward, then we should tell main things that your society forgets, and the truth once in a while, even if it is maybe they will remember next year, is that difficult. À lot of times, we wonder how can they arrived here as guests, our guests, that we sit here and listen to the good words they came to this land and we welcomed that come out of the mouths of your them. And next year, you are going to be leadership. Yesterday, we heard words like celebrating that. Even today, they come into "trust": We must trust each other. Well, our territories wishing to make cassettes, those words, we heard for the last 450 movies or pictures to sell to the public, to years: Trust us. We keep our end of the show what Québec has done for the Indian bargain and your end has eroded, and eroded peoples, glamourizing Québec's role to Indian and eroded to this very day where there are peoples to the world. They come today and Indian Peoples today that are dying, there they say: Let us make cassettes so that we are Indian peoples on the North Shore of will show what a good relationship we have Québec that do not know how they are going between Indian peoples and Québec to pass the winter, because they do not Government. have adequate housing, they do not have adequate food, they do not have adequate I think that we should get a few things medicine. straight. As you were guests then, you are still guests today. As we welcomed you then, If the truth is going to be spoken, then we gave you privileges, we gave you passage, let us speak it. We are Indian peoples, we we gave you freedom to come to our land. I are nations and we belong to this land. do not know what point in time that you got Today, a man sits there and he comes to our the idea that you, all of a sudden, had land and says: Can I have a right of way for jurisdiction, that you had control, that you some bus transportation to come through suddenly became the "maîtres chez nous" of your land? We need it, we need space, we the Indian lands. This is ours and I would need room, please be kind enough and allow hope that you would keep this in mind. the bus line to pass through Caughnawaga on What bothers me is that in dealing with a special lane. Let us take more of your the situation there are a lot of falsities land. But, last year, the proposal was: We going on, a lot of deceits and a lot of are going to steal your land, put an untruths. I think that should be told. First of archipelago on it, put an Hydro project and all, in the constitutional process, there is no push that, and we are going to do it with or one to make representation for nations, be without your consent. Well, that has been they Mohawk, be they any other nation in put on the back-burner, but that same man Québec. Mr. Lévesque, if he wishes not to has the gall and the audacity to come and participate in the First Ministers Conference, ask for more land and to put a bus line should not go in on the excuse or on the through. These are the things that are coattails of native people to go and use that happening, that are wrong, that should be as a forum to shoot off his mouth about corrected. what he thinks that the position of Québec Today, we have a hospital in should be, like he did last year. Do not go Caughnawaga that is in such poor condition, under the pretext that he is going to help that is a tinder-box; it could burn today. what he terms "our Indians". We are nobody's But, because Québec wants his God damned Indians except ourselves. flag hanging from the front of that hospital, I should think that he should be, or this it will not give moneys to build the new Government should be, fair enough to tell hospital. Why? Because it is playing politics the Indian peoples they have made with peoples life, the same damned thing agreements with what those agreements that is going on in Northern Québec with mean. If there is an extinguishment of Indian peoples. aboriginal rights to a land, tell the people I do not know, it is very difficult to that their rights are extinguished and do not hinder and listen to the words of our leaders keep them on a string like you do. here and say: Do not speak sharp or harsh If there is going to be talk of words; but I can help it. It is right up to B-9301 here with the hypocrisy of Governments, be defended my home, because I was fighting a the federal or provincial, who come in and person coming to steal my land. And for have the arrogance to think that they are that, I am deemed to be a person in just superior, that they are going to take care of above an animal state. I mean, your the Indian people. Nobody is going to take education, your schools are all geared to lies care of the Indian people, except themselves. and racism against Indian people. Today, you What you have is a responsibility to Indian can pick up any textbook in the first, second people, a responsability to provide medicine, or third grade, and the first thing you have to provide education, but you have no right got in there is "Maudit Sauvage", his picture to steal our minds. You have no right to right in the front. come in and take our children away and try These things - you talk about changes - to put thinking, to make us think that we you do not go about changing them, you are a society that is small, that is poor, build the hate, the racism right from day that is impoverished, that cannot work, that one. Right from the time the children come is dependant. You create this dependency, off your knees, you build hate, you build it you take away from us our own self-respect, in your schools. You come out and say in our right to livelihood, our right to earn your schools: Oh, we, the French, were the money. first here. This is our land, this is our We have people in Caughnawaga who homeland. It is not. You are guests here. It can work with the best people in the wcrld is our house. Our asking is: Let us coexist on buildings, on bridges. As a matter of together and pay some of your God damned fact, your bridge overheared in 1907 took 32 back rent. We have right now, in our area, a or 31 of our Indian lives putting up that piece of land that was set aside. At that bridge. What does Québec tell us? You time, the type of land was seignorial land. cannot work in the province of Québec, That was the only type of division that was except in your area; he restricts us. I am a coming from overseas. Today, in Mohawk on the North American continent collaboration with the Jesuits and with your and I will not be restricted by any Government, you have stolen two thirds of Government, provincial or federal, to tell me the land of Caughnawaga that lies to the where I can be an Indian. We should have a East. And now, you want to girdle it with right to work all over the place and we roads, with all kind of things. cannot work all over the place. We have a Gentlemen, the problems are sitting right to be a Mohawk in James Bay, in right in front of us. I would hope that there Ungava, in Alberta, in California and in your will be a good question and answer period. small State of Florida. I do not perceive Thank you very much. that we are going to be... Well, that is where some people take their vacations, Le Président (M. Rancourt): Thank you, while they are supposed to spend their Mr. Two Rivers. Yes, Mr. Williams. economy in Québec. Anyway, I really have a hard time to sit here a lot of times and just M. Williams (Franklin): I would just like listen to the distate, deception and the to give a very brief background on the connivance going on from your area. I do not hospital that it was referred to. In 1905, the know; maybe, we do not have the luxury of Mohawk people in Caughnawaga started a sinning all week long and then, going Sunday hospital on their own under the auspices of morning get our sins forgive on and then the people of Kahnawake. There was no begin, next Monday morning, with a new medicare at that time, there was no federal slate. I do not think, we do not have that aid. For fifty some odd years, the people luxury. But, we have to live with ourselves financed the hospital themselves. In the later each and every day and we have our part of the sixties, when the Québec took conscience that is prodding all the time. over health jurisdiction, there were Gentlemen, we have a lot of problems discussions with Québec in which there was and I can see those problems looking at me funding made available for operations of the right now. Those problems are sitting here, hospital to provide an operational budget. staring me right in the face. This committee Presently, the hospital has at least 85 sits here, there have been committees, like I employees, Indian, non-Indian alike. The said, for the last 450 years and I do not structure itself has already been referred to know where the hell the solution is going to as being unsafe. We have had, over the last come from. I believe that it is going to few years, discussions with representatives come from our own people. from the Social Affairs in which, I think, as Chief Two Rivers mentioned, there was a Another problem I have, and probably certain insistence. I think that one of the made me schizophrenic, is that when I went major points, faltering points, is that under to school, I was told I was a savage, I was the Québec health laws there is a told I was wild, I was told that I invented requirement that a cooperation, an artificial missionary soup. I had all these problems entity be set up. Our position is that we telling me that I was wicked. And why? cannot submit to such a thing, because the Because I defended my land, because I B-9302

jurisdiction comes from Kahnawake, and Wampum of the Circle of chiefs, and this to Kahnawake only, from the people of outline the constitutional framework in the Kahnawake, not from a formed Government. international world of the Confederacy of We believe this is an appropriate form, it is Haudenosaunee. Following that will be the an appropriate time we could look at explanation of the principles of the Two Row alternatives. We did send a letter to Mr. Wampum and we have a replica of the Two Pierre-Marc Johnson, the Minister of Social Row Wampum here with us. Following that, Affairs, in which we outlined a number of we will have an explanation of our position alternatives. I would hope that this assembly in the international world. Following that, we will study those alternatives and respond will go through an explanation of Indian self- before we have human disasters. Thank you. government as we understand it. And then, following that, we would like to have a Le Président (M. Rancourt): Thank you, question and answer period and a sort of Mr. Williams. Is there someone else who interchange between your committee and our would like to speak? From the other groups, committee. So, we will now go to the probably? explanation of our constitutional framework and the Circle of chiefs. This will be done M. Deer (Brian): My name is Brian by Paul Delaronde. Deer. We are representatives of the Land Rights Committee as appointed by the Grand M. Delaronde (Paul): First of all, before Council of Chiefs of the Haudenosaunee we begin to explain the Circle, we would several years ago. On my left, Mr. Richard like to let you know that, when we were Powless, Mr. Mike Myers, Mr. Bob Antone, delegated to come here as people Mr. Dennis Nicholas, Mr. Charlie Patton, Mr. representing the Haudenosaunee, we have Paul Delaronde and Mr. Bruce Elijah. been told on how to conduct ourselves when We want to emphasize that this is a we come here. We have also been instructed committee and we will regard it as a on how we should speak when we come here. committee meeting another committee. We We have been told that we are to be in our represent the interest of the Confederacy of best ways when we come to meet with you. the Haudenosaunee which is known to the We, the representatives of the French as the Iroquois Confederacy and also Haudenosaunee, will conduct ourselves as we known to the English as the Six Nations have been instructed. Confederacy. On the part of the Band Council, they (11 h 45) have very much the same feeling, the same We are composed of six nations: the wants as the Haudenosaunee people but they Mohawk Nation, the Oneida Nation, the have not been given those instructions as we Cayuga Nation, the Onondaga Nation, the have been given the instructions from the Seneca Nation and the Tuscarora nation. Our people of the Haudenosaunee. Some words territory extends from the north side of the were used, a tone was used which is not the St. Lawrence River and Lake Ontario to the tone and not the words that we would use south side of the Mohawk River in what is here as Haudenosaunee people. We are not now known as New York State. It extends apoligizing for what Mr. Two Rivers has from the East side of the Richelieu River said. Those are his true feelings. He and Lake Champlain and Hudson River, West expressed himself the way he felt and the to the Ohio River Valley and the Great things he knows. He cannot be blamed for Lakes. the kind of words he has used. He spoke the We represent people in 21 communities truth and you must understand that, when within our Confederacy including people in someone continuously does the things to you Caughnawaga near Montréal, in Kanesatake that have been done to our people, it makes near Oka ar.d Akwesasne near Dundee, you angry. You, yourselves, can look at Québec. We have several alien borders that yourselves and you can just think back in the intersect within our territory including the past few weeks, in the past few months, in alien borders of the Province of Québec, the the past few years. Many harsh words have Province of Ontario and the nation called come out of your mouth, many tones that Canada, and including the borders of the you used were not good tones. But we are State of New York, the State of Pennsylvania, all human beings. Sometimes, our emotions the State of Ohio and the United States of get the best of us. So, let no one's feelings America. However, we do not regard be hurt. ourselves as Québeckers or Canadians. We Let us just try to understand the words are not citizens of Québec or Canada and that have been said here today, let us try to we never have been. We are Haudenosaunee continue this meeting and let us try to and we reside in the territory of the remember the words that my brother, Bruce Haudenosaunee Confederacy. Elijah, has said, the message that was given At this time, I would like to outline to us: that we use good water to clear our our presentation and explanation of the throats so that good words can come out; circle of chiefs with a replica of the that we use a good feather, a white feather B-9303

to clean our ears so that we may hear the This is to represent that the chiefs of words as what the words really mean, the the Confederacy are united, that they are truth; and also that we use that white holding hands together, that the people are leather again to clean our eyes and not let in this circle from the clan-mothers to the other things get in our sight but let us look men, the women, the children, to the for truth and let us look for honesty. smallest ones who crawl on the earth. They Here is the Wampum for the Circle of are all within this circle. Our language is in chiefs. There was a man who came to our this circle; our laws are in this circle; our people, many years ago, before any European culture and our traditions are all in this knew the world was round. This man came circle. to our people. We referred to him as a When this came about our people were peacemaker. He came with instructions from told that there come a day that something ...the Creator. He came to remind the strange, something different, would come to people of what was intended from the our shores. They were told that much of Creator. The way of life that we should live. these things would be attractive to many of When the peacemaker came, he gave us a our people and it was asked by our people: way in which to follow. He gave us a What happens when this thing comes to formula for peace and happiness. À formula something foreign comes to our land? Our where mankind can live in harmony with one people were told that they did not have to another and learn to live in harmony with worry because they were free people in here, what the Creator has put on this earth to they would be protected within this circle. respect what the Creator has planted here, But it was said that if anyone wanted what to respect the creatures that he has put on was on the outside that there was a space this earth, and to respect all of the under the arms of the chiefs and that they universe. So, when he came he gave us the.., could pass under here and that they can go the law of great peace. The law which and become apart of that foreign thing that brought our people together, the Mohawks, has come. Then the people said: What is the Cayugas, the Senecas, the Tuscaroras, going to happen if those people who have the Oneidas, the Onondagas. Originally there left this circle... What is going to happen to were only five in this Confederacy. The them? It was said that when they passed Tuscaroras joined the Confederacy about the under the arms of the chiefs they would go year of 1713, of 1714. But the original five out with nothing, that they would become were included in this Circle of chiefs. nothing, that their language, their laws, their clan, their birth right to this land, To begin with there is this long string, everything, they would live within this circle. this is for Atotarho who is the chief, who has been given the responsibility that when And then it was asked: What, if those the rest of the chiefs of the different people find they do not like what is on the nations have come to council he would outside, what happens then? The people were always keep the chiefs on track, that there told that these people who had left can would not get off the subject of what they return, but when they return they will not originally had gathered for and that he would have a voice in the politics of our people, constantly remind them of what the purpose they will not have a voice in the ceremonies is of their council. And of these nations, all and the spiritual life of our people. They of these five nations that are represented on would only become workers of the nation; this Wampum, the Onondagas with their 40 they would never have a voice again because chiefs, the Oneidas and the Mohawks, both it proves to our people that they could have having 9 chiefs, the Senecas having their 8 deserted the people, that they were capable chiefs and the Cayugas having their 10 of deserting the people, the Confederacy. So chiefs, all the nations do not have the exact they would have to live with that for the same amount of chiefs but all the nations rest of their lives. are equal in power. All the chiefs are equal (12 heures) in power. There is no chief here who has It was also said that when that happen, more power than any other chief. They are all these things came about, when these all equal. foreign things came to our shores, there was As when the Confederacy was first a tree that was planted on the territory of formed and the chiefs began to function as the Onondagas, general ... the great white part of the Confederacy, still to this day, pine, a symbol of our Confederacy. That that our chiefs sit the same way, all of the tree was going to fall, that that tree would chiefs are still in Council. The law that was never hit the ground. It would never hit the given to us is still the same law that we ground because the Rotiiane's hands were live by. The way our Council sits is exactly held together, that tree would land in their the same way as it was thousands and arms, it would hit the ground. They would thousands of years ago. You can see here hold it up and the day is conning that those the outer edge of this circle. There is one Rotiiane will put it back up straight. string going around and another one wrapped The Rotiiane, the Chiefs, as you refer around each of them. to them, of the Confederacy have been given B-9304

a special duty. They have been put in your government is trying to separate from office by their clan mothers and their clans. Canada it is very important for us to make These chiefs are not what is known as clear what our position is. So, if your hereditary chiefs, where a father, a man is a Government is successful in separating from chief and when he dies, his son takes his Canada, if this is what happen, then we will place. This was not a monarch. This was a have no problems having relations with you person who worked for the people. He was because you understand the principles of the put into office by the people in the truest Two Row Wampum. This explanation will be form of democracy that the world has ever done by Charlie Patton. known. This is the way these people are elected, by the people, by the clan mothers. M. Patton (Charlie): Just as my brother The title is hereditary because the title from the Wolf Clan has talked about the belongs to a clan. The clans are headed by Great Law and how it was brought to us, the women because the children, as you this wampum becomes an extension of that. receive your last name from your father, we There was a time when that law came to us. receive our clan from our mother and this is We were also told that there was going to why we say the title is hereditary through be a time when a people will come across the clan. It was told that we should explain the great water. We were also told that they this to you because it has been explained to will bring with them a different way and you in the past. It has been explained to that we should try to understand and try our your forefathers. It had been explained to best to deal with them. Because in our ways, the English, to the French, to the Dutch. It when a visitor enters our house and there is had been explained to all the people who food on our table, we will offer some of our came to our shores and again, we wish to food so that our visitor may not go hungry; remind you that we are a separate if he needs a place to sleep, we will also government, we are a separate entity. We offer him a bed so that he would not be are only here to tell you who we are and tired and so on. what we will continue to be. And there came a time when we At the same time as this was explained noticed the long ships coming across the to you, you understood, you made treaties. ocean and we saw them coming to our You recognized that we were sovereign shores. We acted upon what our instructions nations because you made treaties with us. were. We welcome the people who came to Today, Canada has become a separate nation our lands; many of them were sick from the but to our understanding, you agreed with long journey and we explained to them how the mother country of Canada that you to use the medicines. We offered them food. would uphold those treaties, you would up- Even this weekend, our brothers across the hold those agreements because when those United States are celebrating Thanksgiving agreements were made, we are told and our for that time, because the people showed grandfathers believed that they were all done them how to plant corn, beans and squash, in good faith, that there was to be true so they could be sustained for the first year respect among each other. they were in this new land. We offered them Now, we are here again to remind you room and shelter. of these wampums, of these agreements, of As the years went on, we gave them a these treaties because we say that our place to sleep, to rest their heads. As the leaders, our people wish to sit down as two years went on, it became obvious to our governments, as two equals and go over the people again, as we remembered our stories agreements that have been made to remind and we thought about them... it became each other. If there have to be any changes clear to us that there had to be, something made, that these be done through had to be made and something had to be negotiations, as equal. That is all I have to done: an agreement had to be made because say at this time on the Circle of chiefs. we saw how our brothers acted towards each other. We saw how they acted toward the M. Deer (Brian): Next will be the land and how they acted toward everything explanation of the principles of the Two Row that was upon it. We saw that it was Wampum. We would like to make note of a different from what we were instructed. report of the special committee of Indian So, this treaty came about, this treaty self government of the Canadian government, we call the Two Row Wampum: the two which you are probably aware of. On the roads that we would follow. This was first front cover and on the back cover they show made with the Dutch and, at that time, in the Two Row Wampum of the Confederacy our discussions - we had many long of the Haudenosaunee. discussions with those people, our brothers What we have found in this report is and the Dutch - and we began to talk about that the Canadian Government does not how this agreement would come about, where really understand the principles of the Two our two peoples could live in peace, which Row Wampum. We are here to make them was what we were taught in that Great Law very clear. Because we acknowledge that and what our instructions were. B-9305

So, over the long discussions that we very clear, we do not have to read between had, we came up with this. We said that on the lines, there is not fine print, it is very the backround of white; some people say very clear how our governments should act. that this symbolizes the purity of the And in the discussions between our two agreement, the integrity and the honor of governments, in those times, in the our peoples. beginning, it was with the Dutch, we In modern days, we also say that this discussed the terminology of this relationship. wide background that symbolizes the land, And, as we began to talk, they agreed: They this river, called North America, that we said yes, the principles that you outline here share, on one side, you will see that we are good and we agree to those principles. have one road here and, on one part of it, And immediately in the terminology, they you will also see that we have another road. said to us: We will be the father and you Two roads in North America, very clear. On will be our children. Because they were used this road, is what we call the path of the ... to that, from the lands across the water, we call the path of what you call Indian that was the way the society was ordered, peoples, the peoples who were put on this that there were kings and there were people. land. (12 h 15) In this road over here, that is But in our understanding of who we symbolized by a tall ship and this is were are, we are all of the same height. The... the long ships will pass. That is the road and the people that live on the land were all that your peoples, all of your peoples, will equal. Even the smallest grass that lives on travel in North America. It was also clearly the ground is just as important as we are. understood that in this path, that the ... We are all part and equal in the cycle of follow. Everything that belongs to us is in life and we understood that in this that road: our land, and our languages, our relationship. And we said, we talked about culture, our responsibility to the Creator. that a long time, our forefathers said, and The way we were given, everything that we after they had talked about it, they said to were instructed sits in that canoe. the leaders of the Dutch: We have thought It was also clearly understood that in about what you have said, about you being your vessel, in your long ship, with its large the father and us being the sons, or the bright sails, you would have your religions, children. And they said: We do not think you would have your laws, what you believe that it will ever work because you see, our to be right for you, you would have your father, he can tell his children what to do, ways and everything that went with that and he can make laws for his children and we that would be in your vessel and that was understand that that is not our way. So we yours. asked and we told them, we said: Let us And it was clearly understood between enter this agreement as brothers, as equals, our peoples and it is shown right here in this our heads will be the same height; that we Wampum as you see it today that those will deal and we will talk to each other as roads never come together. This Wampum brothers. And still to this day, we address maybe 1000 miles long but those roads can you as brothers, because we understand that never come together and they never will. relationship there. We still remember it. That was the way we understood in terms of And what does that mean when we talk our politics, we understood that they about Governments? Is that we will deal belonged in our own particular vessels. nation to nation, your nation and our nation Never, in those agreements, do we have the as equals, that we cannot never be your right to legislate over what your children nor that we intend to be? Because governments and your peoples will do. We we understand our original instructions about can never make you do something that we who we are. And in between these two - I feel is ours. We can never legislate over you will continue with that discussion because I that you will become a... That is in our think it is important as well - they had a canoe, we do not have that right. We number of different discussions about understand that only the Creator has that terminology and they discussed the two roads right. here. And so our brothers, the Dutch, asked In this vessel over here, it was also our people, they said: Well, we see that you clearly understood that you have your laws have two different vessels and you know that in there and the same goes for your peoples, in our vessel, we have many shiny objects; that you do not have that right to legislate we have many beautiful things that are part laws that will make us anything that we are of our culture; we have many things that we not. You do not have the right to legislate think that will make your life easier. And laws that will make us "Québécois" or they said: What if some of your people Canadians or Americans. Only the Creator should chose to come into our vessel? And has that right. The Creator made us... He our people thought about that a long time. gave us instructions, we can never turn our And they said: They are free to do so but as back from those instructions. And it has to they do, as they step over into that vessel, be clear - ...symbolizes that - it is very they leave everything that belongs to them, B-9306 everything behind into our canoe; they children that we have lost because of the cannot take that with them. It is very clear. great wind. And as we see those things and And they had other discussions. Our we understand, we understand our white brothers said: In your vessel, what if responsibility too, that we have to educate some of our people should choose to step our people. We have to get them to pull into your canoe? And our people thought their feet out of that other vessel because about that a great time. And we also said we love our children, we love our men and that we did not think that that would we love our women. We feel strong enough happen. Because you see, our canoe does not that we want them to be strong. They need have many shiny objects in it. Our canoe is to be one whole people again and we a simple existence; our canoe is a very understand that responsibility very clearly. simple way. It is a way that respects the In between these two roads, as we go cycle of life; it is a way where we deal on, that agreement was going to be linked closely with the earth and we respect that. by three chains, by three links. That was And it is also a very strict way about how going to bind that agreement. And those our responsibilities were to be carried out. three chains it was going to be bound by are Never, could we, for example, develop a dam ... peace, ... a good way, the integrity of because that dam would also dig a hole in our nations, the honour of our nations and our mother's heart. That is very clear. good words and ..., strenght because we Everything we do in our canoe, we have to understand and respect each other ways. take into consideration the heart and soul of That is what those three links symbolize in everything else that is around us. And as the there. discussion went on, they said: There will come a time that we believe... That is very basically what the Two Row talks about. That was originally made They said: What will happen if some of with the Dutch as your forefathers from your people choose to have a foot in each France came over and they needed our help. canoe? And our people thought about that as They also saw the value of a relationship well, and they looked at the tall ship and like this and we extended this same belt to they looked how the two, a canoe and a them in term of convenant chains. The same ship, worked together in the water. And they agreement, the same responsibilities to each said: You know that your ship has tall sails other, nation to nation. We also saw that in and as we look across the water, we see the Americans and we saw that in the that the wind blows into your sails and it British. They all saw the value of a pushes that ship. When we have our people relationship with our people and they all with a foot in other canoe, in other vessel, made fine words about how this would last there will come a time, we see, that a great as long as the rivers flow, as long as the wind will come, a great turbulence will come grass grows. That is where those words came and it will push our ships apart, and what off; right out of these discussions. And so, will happen to our people? We all know what still to this day, our people have never once happens when we have a foot in two canoes. tried to legislate over you. Still to this day, They become unstable and as the canoes or we have not attempted to make you ... the vessels are pushed apart we are going to because we respect the fact that the go in between. That is exactly as they Creator did you the greatest honour in explained it, that as our vessel were pushed making you the people that you are and that apart in that great turbulence, our people you can never be anything else than what would fall in between. And it was told that you are. But we also understand that the we did not know what would happen to those Creator mades us onkwehonwe. He did us a people. We did not have the experiences that great honour as well. He gave us a we have today. responsibility as well. We can never turn our back on that responsibility. We can never say Many of us sitting around this table, to the Creator: You did not know what you we see that in modern day, we see thai- were doing and we want to be something today. We understand clearly now what those else. turbulences are. Those great winds are the pressures of your governments; the pressures You have to understand those kinds of of many different things that we have upon principles in our discussions today and in our shoulders, and we have seen our many your discussions from here on. They are very people, our women, our children and our men clear, very simple understandings about how fall in between. We have seen them when our people can live together in peace. This they could not deal with the pressure of wampum belt, you will notice, on one modern day life and they had to use alcohol end has strings much longer and that to take charge of that. There are many symbolizes that the belt does not stop. That things as well that come into our lifes, belt is still alive today. That belt can be things like drugs. We see our children; every extended to other nations who are willing to day in the newspapers, we talk of suicide, work with our peoples in peace. We do not the great suicide rate amongst our people. only address this to your Government, we And, day after day, we see the many address it to our other Indian brothers B-9307 because we need to understand that coming to say on the subject. If I have made any to one mind together in peace, is what errors, maybe some of my brothers might makes us strong. So, we like them also to add on. take that message to their peoples. These are powerful words, if you really take time Le Président (M. Rancourt): Thank you, to understand them. Mr. Patton. M. Deer. I do not think that there is very much more that I can say about that Two Row M. Deer: Mr. Chairman, at this time, Wampum, the two roads that we have talked we would like to move on to our about. I have tried, in my own words, to international relations in the world. I would explain what that means, those very basic also like to point out that we have filed two principles, principles by which we can live papers with your committee, which we will together as human beings. There will come a not read but which are there for your time we will be instructed to say as well. reference. There will come many times when we should The first is a statement of the take these things out of our closets, out of Haudenosaunee concerning the constitutional your closets because they are your framework and international positions of the agreements too. We should dust them off and Confederacy of the Haudenosaunee. The renew our agreements, renew our second paper is the declaration of principles understandings with each other. We should for the defence of the Indigenous nations and come to understandings as equals again. peoples of the western hemisphere passed in So, we bring you those messages. We Geneva in 1977. So, at this time, Mike have get you to understand as well. You see Myers will give a presentation on our this Wampum, we say it is a replica. The international position. Wampum of the Kaianerekowa is also a replica, because through the years, our Le Président (M. Rancourt): Yes, Sir. original ones have been stolen. Our original Wampums have been taken by force, in some M. Myers (Mike): The previous two cases. They are sitting in museums in Albany speakers have established a historical and some of the vaults in your government background which we understand ourselves as well. There came a time when people and our relationships through the world. tought that if we lost this article, this Yesterday, we heard some words concerning artifact, this grouping of beads that forms a equality, concerning legitimate aspirations, record, we would also forget the concerning how we can be peoples together responsibility in our relationship. The in this world. We would like to draw your relationship is not a material one, it is not attention for a moment about the history. I written in beads, and that is it. When we will give you an overview of the political lose the beads, the relationship is finished. history between our two peoples. No, the relationship is etched in the We spoke briefly to some of the major minds of our forefathers. It has been etched points of conflict inside of one of our in the minds of our people, sitting here communities. There is a problem that we today. That same understanding of principles tried to ignore. I think Canada has begun to will be in our children. It will be in the ones explore that problem by looking at the we called the Haudenosaunee, the ones that question of racism in this continent and the are still coming forward, the ones that are role that the phenomena arises and places in not yet born. Those same understandings are our relationships with each other. It was going to be etched in their brains. The same raised earlier as a question: At what point responsibilities are going to be there. We did our relation turn over that you were no understand clearly what our responsibilities longer guests but now the runners of our are. We have tried, in the best way that we lives, the managers of our lives. That point can, to explain what that Two Row means. was a very long time ago. It was a condition (12 h 30) of racism that allows western people to There will come a time when our believe they can dominate, not only governments can sit together as governments, Indigenous people of the western not as committees, the leaders of your hemisphere, but Indigenous peoples of Africa Government and the chiefs of our and of Asia and elsewhere in the world. It is Government, not just committees. There will a very old thought. It is a very old thought come a time when that will happen, when that continues to this very day to get in the we can renew these agreements again. Many way of our relations. If you decide that you of our older people, those who understand are going to determine what our legitimate this much clearer than we do, those I can aspirations are, you have fallen into the explain it for hours the fine details of what trap. You do not have the right, as you are that means... In those times, they will also not of us. No more do we have the right to commence it with you, our leaders and determine or define what we feel your yours, and they will make those words known legitimate aspirations should be. from beginning to end. So, that is all I have If you believe in the establishment of a B-9308

French state in North America, that is up to our gift was democracy and yet we have you, but you have to come to an agreement been consistently denied it. We strive for with us since our state existed before yours. democratic relationships with all people in What we have laid out so far is the basis of the world. We have been doing that for more that relationship as two countries than 300 years, we continue to this day. In cohabitating North America. We have always this century, since 1924, we have actively understood that. We have always been a sent delegations to the international bodies, generous people. We have always perceived beginning with the League of nations. We ourselves in an international way. That is have actively followed the development of how we could deal with the French Crown, international covenants and international law the British Crown, the Dutch, etc., because and watched how those developments affect we had an international perspective. One us and how they can be used by us to rooted in peace, one deeply rooted in achieve our legitimate aspirations, to be equality, real equality. Not equality that we once again a country in this continent. said: OK, we will consider you equal to us, The paper that was tabled by the Band if you do X, Y and Z. No, we accepted from council in its earlier part speaks in detail the beginning the manner in which you carry about the political, social and cultural rights out life on the earth whether it be through that exist for us under international law. churches, through parliamentary procedures, International law already establishes etc. And we had hoped that we had gotten it across, that you were to just simply certain definitions for words like "self- accept the way we carry out business on government", "autonomy", "self-deter- earth and not try to alter that. We all know mination". We have found though that that that is not true. the settled regimes in the western hemisphere twist those definitions for their There was a reference made yesterday own purposes. The Nixon Government took a that we should forget about the history and early jump before the concept of self- look to the future. We cannot forget about determination became popular and defined it the history. History creates this moment to Indian people: You can be self-determining right now. What we do in this moment, when if you do pa, pa, pa. Now Canada is saying it becomes history, will set the terms for the same to us through a special committee ten generations, fifteen generations. So we on self-government. Yes, you can have self- cannot forget history. We make it as we sit government, Mr. Indian, if you do this, this, here. We are all victims of it, we are all this and this, and we consent. That is products of it. unacceptable to us. You, as French people being victims of As you look at the declaration of a Canadian history which is giving you your principles for the defense of indigenous driving force for what you perceive to be nations and peoples, what we would like to your legitimate aspirations, should be point out in our support of this declaration sensitive then to what ours are and not and our pushing of this declaration at the perpetuate the same victimizing that you are international level, is that anything less than subject to on us. You should be very clear what the declaration says maintains the on how to achieve equality. But we have colonial parental relationship. And we will found in this hemisphere, in this western accept nothing less in our relationships with hemisphere that it was not easy. We have America, with Canada and if, in the future, not been able to achieve in with so called a French state emerges in our relationships. progressive governments, such as the Allende This is the framework founded in the circle regime in Chili or the Soudinists in of chiefs, founded in the Two Row Wampum, Nicaragua. We have not even been able to founded in other agreements of equality and perceive it or to strive for it with right standing together. wing governments in this hemisphere. So we We would like to draw your attention have been conditioned by that experience to for a moment to the point 6 of the come to a funny feeling about you, that we principles. It talks about changed are not sure you can raise above your racism, even though you talk about equality, circumstances. When I thought about that even though you throw around progressive remark yesterday about ignoring history, let's words like legitimate aspirations. forget about history, what we are being asked to do is to forget about the We have set the tone, beginning in the circumstances and how they have got 1500, in the 1600 and 1700. We have set the changed, how they have got changed by the tone, the Iroquois did, for democracy in the colonial presence, more accurately the res- world. We are the inspiration of the colonial presence that exists, how the American Revolution, the French Revolution manipulation of our lives has occurred, and and the Russian Revolution. Our gift to the to ignore that. Ignore those circumstances world was a concept of democracy, a people and let's continue as on if suddenly, controling their future by controling their everything is okay, everything is all right. government. That was our greatest gift, not We forget about the millions of acres of just corn, not just beans and potatoes. But land that we have lost; we forget about the B-9309 thousand of lives that have been taken; we between us. You are not 2,5% of North forget about the violent suppression of our America if you are basing it on the land. way of life. We just wipe that from our The land is not yours. mind and we continue, in the future, as a (12 h 45) grand and happy people. We can not do that, We would also like clarity on what because it has been a deliberate, conscious Québec perceives as its legitimate aspirations effort to change the circumstances of our in terms of those lands, those resources and existence. We will not forget it just as other the relationships between ourselves. What do people will not forget how circumstances you see as potential areas of problems as were changed for them. you pursue your goals and we pursue ours? If Point 8 also debunks one the popular you are pursuing the goal of being a French theories of settler's regimes. The idea that State in North America and we are pursuing they can exist because of the right of the goal of real recognition as an original discovery. They discovered some place and State of North America, what do you see as unfortunately they happened to be somebody the problem areas and what do you see as that they term less civilized than the potential conflicts between us? themselves; therefore they had the right to As we are moving just as aggressively exert control and take over the area. That is in the world community, the Haudenosaunee no longer a popular theory in the travels on its own passport, we do not use international world. The defect of colonialism Canadian or American passports. Up to now since the sexties has been based on the there are 19 countries who let us in, who rejection of the idea of the right of recognize our passport as the passport of a discovery and the chasing of the European country they do not have diplomatic relations powers from Africa, from Asia and from with currently. And we will continue to other places where they tried to maintain follow that policy, we will continue to their control. Now, we are turning the pursue it and expand the number of countries world's attention on North America and how who recognize us. the same kind of theory continues to apply We actively participate as through non- here. governmental organizations in international There has been no military conquest of meetings and arenas. We send a regular our people. The French colonial government delegation to the UN Human Rights could not defeat us; the British could not. Commission and we have a permanent They recognized us as a sovereign state; we representation at the working groupe on held our territories. We meet all the criteria Indigenous Peoples. We are not going to be of a nation. We have a define territory; we backing off from that issue. We will be have a permanent population; we have the continuing. I am reminded that we, currently, ability to enter into international relations. have two delegations un Europe right now, We have never been wiped out. The who are seeking to improve our relationships enforcement of legislation, the diseases, the with two Western European countries. alcohol, the creation of the dependency, that We heard yesterday something to the is what have changed the circumstances. effect of a declaration of Aboriginal rights What we are faced with is not only a and we would like you to be clear that in question of cultural preservation that is a our world, as far as our government would very safe item to discuss. It is a very safe be concerned, unless this declaration of item on your side of the table to discuss, to Aboriginal rights pattern itself after this talk about the preservation of someone's declaration as Québec's adoption of these culture, their language, their music, their kinds of principles, anything less than that is dance, their arts, etc., but this discussion unacceptable. We look to maintain a clear goes beyond that. This discussion goes on to relationship. Right now, we have to maintain the preservation of Aboriginal Nations. There a government to government relationship is a call for the establishment of a new with Canada, since you are still a provincial order, a new order of relationships between government and we can not recognize you as ourselves an we welcome that call. We would a full-blown government yet. We do have like to point out that that call will be based daily problems with each other that have to on the concepts of the Two Row, the be dealt with, as was spoken to, in terms of concepts of the Circle. hospitals, and roads and police jurisdictions, What we are interested: What are etc. But a protocol still has to be ironed Québec aspirations? What do you define as out, how we will proceed with the ironing your legitimate aspirations? What do you see out of those issues between the province of as your future? One of you said yesterday Québec and one of our local communities. that you are 2,5% of the population of North But our government has to pursue its America. Is that 2,5% based solely on your relationships with the Government of Canada human population or is it also based on the for the time being. But if in the future you illegally occupied territories? Because if it is do become a French State in North America, based on the land, you have not cleaned up we are willing to pursue some kind of that question yet. That is a massive question dialogue and some relationship in that area B-9310 as well. front of you, so you can maybe put some We have been shown here that we have good questions to us. two copies of the passports that we use, the We have come here prepared to talk one that is in gold is the one of our about self-government and about international citizens, the one that is in black is the one relations and to talk about our aspirations as carried by our diplomatic delegations when Haudenosaunee. We come to talk to you as a they go abroad. This is a trilingual committee of our national governments. We document. It is in Onadaga, English and are a committee which has been directed to French. educate our world and the non-Indian world But we must remind you to look inside around us. We see this as a form of your own minds, to challenge your own education. Our relationship has been broken thinking to its furthest possible limits about over many years of oppression that has the possibilities of relationships between us. existed over our lands. We want to talk to Our brothers in the North and other areas of you because you have a relationship with what you call Québec have their own way of Canada. We do not. Canada has imposed making relations with you. And that is up to many laws and regulations on our community them, how they make that. That is up to that destroyed the integrity of our them. But whatever you make with them nationhood. They have chosen not to does not, automatically, apply to us nor recognize our national governments. There whatever you make with us does it seems to be a sense of fear that exists automatically apply to them. You cannot just among Canadians and among the people of simply think that because we are all Indians Québec of the Iroquois people, of our or we are all Indigenous, that whatever you struggle to continue our existence. But I do applies to all of us. That has been a very want to draw simple examples of that foolish approach in the past. You have to relationship. So maybe you can understand approach us each differently, listen to us, what we mean. Canada has taken the but there has to be flexibility; there can not attitude of their mother country that we are be just "this is the only way it is going to children. We want to put it very clear that be" and you have to pursue your own we are not children to anyone except the thinking, as far as you can. Creator. Canada has, over its history, provided prescriptions to heal us. They say If you have complaints as a minority that we are a sick people, that the Indian people of Canada, of how this country has Act was a form of prescription for Indian treated you, double that when you think government in this country. Even today, they about us. And the feelings that you have provide another prescription, called Indian- around how your own people have been self government, a prescription that does not treated carry the mount to the furthest. I recognize the integrity of our nationhood. recognize that there are others with just as intense feelings about that and seek an We want to draw your attention to that equal kind of a liberation in the Continent document that come out of the Federal to come back to good human relations with Government because you have a relationship each other again. We are going to be with that government, even though it might together a long time. We do not see you all be in a turmoil at this point. We know that packing up and going some place else, we the people in Canada are listening to this are going to be here a long time. We have presentation. We know that they are time to work these things out if you make concerned. We see this as an opportunity to the challenge of resisting your own history point out some of the failures in this and resisting the impetus momentum as document. Even though they have covered it developed through racist thoughts, through with the symbols of our nationalism, the racist legislation and through a racist symbols of our relationship that has gone on perception of the first people to this land to historically, the one point is that they can arise above that. Thank you. draw pretty pictures, but it means very little when you read the material in this document because they do not talk clearly about the Le Président (M. Rancourt): Thank you, races that have existed in this country. They Mr. Myers. Is there something else? do not talk about a clear need of a recognization of Haudenosaunee. They are M. Deer: At this time, Mr. Chairman, saying: From this day on, these are going to we would like to move on to the be your legitimate aspirations, this is how presentation concerning our concept of you are going to achieve self-government Indian-self government, which is to be done through this document. They are going to lay by Bob Antone. down again for us another prescription. But yet, what they have done in the past has not Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Antone. cured the ills in our communities. So there is no need for us to go back to the same M. Antone (Bob): I would like to bring doctor who has not cured our communities some of the thoughts that we have put and has done nothing to the ills that have together here and maybe fallow them up in B-9311 arisen between our relationships as distinct people, to further our own aspirations. But people. It can be a very simple relationship. the real challenge is how are you going to All they have to do is to say that we deal with the spirituality of your people. recognize your government as being the What is your relationship to the natural legitimate government of your lands. That is world going to be? When you take a look at all they have to say. They do not have to our local communities and the kind of talk about how we are going to govern developments that are taking place in and ourselves, because we know how to govern around our communities, the destruction of ourselves. We have been doing it centuries our land, the destruction of the land that before your ancestors came to this land; we provides for us, are we not going to look at have enjoyed a true democracy in this that too? Is there not a need for us to sit country. down and look at that? But I want to draw attention to a (13 heures) point, a point that Western thinkers have That is where the discussion should be forgotten, that is missing in their ideology of at: How are we going to improve the quality democracy. In a circle, you were told that of life in our land? Because we are seeing there are two strands that are intertwined. the kinds of destruction that your What those strands mean are our political corporations, that your governments are beliefs, and our spiritual beliefs. They are doing to our land and they are not good for wound together. The spirituality is the anyone. We are seeing our people dying from foundation of our government. This is why new diseases. Diseases are the result of the we speak so strongly about the goodness of corporate corruption that exists in its our minds, of our belief in the equality of relationship to the natural world. That is the all life, not just human life, but all life that life that we should talk about. When we can exists in this universe. The spirituality is the agree that we are equal governments, then foundation of our government. That is the we can move on to much larger matters, reason why our democracy is so pure. That matters that concern all of us. Recognition is one of the reasons why we are in conflict, is a simple process. There is nothing hard because we see in your concept of about it. It will not give you any pain. It democracy that spirituality missing; it is not will only allow our people to exist and to in there. And so it creates a lot of iniquities continue to be Haudenosaunee and to begin in relationship to other people. It creates to lay out some other things that your oppressive conditions because you fail to forefathers were unable to understand, the recognize - vous niez - the total equality of reasons why our spirituality is intertwined our universe. with our political believes, why that is so important for our future, why we need to When you say that we must have grapple with that question today, if we are legitimate aspirations, are you not passing going to have a future in this land. down the same oppression that Canada is passing to you? Are you not trying to We want you to take a message to liberate yourselves as a French-speaking Canada. We know that you travel there often people, as a distinct people, to a true to their National Government. Maybe not one democracy? If you are, you should allow us that you wish and enjoy but we want you to the same. You should allow us to have the let them know that we are prepared for a same aspirations, and maybe even more so; new relationship based on our Two Row we are an original government in this land. Wampum. But that they have no power to We are not something that was created tell us what self-government is going to be yesterday. We cannot forget the history, for our people. because in our history, our political history, We are growing people. We project our lies all the evidence of our existence, lies population growth in fifty year to be all of our future. Everything is laid out; our 500 000 and that is one of the reasons why road is laid out for us. We have no need to we are educating our people, because we add something from Canada. We have no support our local communities like need to add something from Québec. And I Kaknawake. We are concerned about their am wondering if your government is trying autonomy. We are concerned because of the to develop a prescription for our people. Are influence of all the different governments you taking the role of a doctor to try to that are impacted in our communities. We cure our people? We want to make it very have ability now to mobilize our people and clear that you cannot do that. Historically, resources to come to the aid of any of our you have failed at that process and there is communities. We see that as a necessary no need for you to take that position today. process. If we are going to see a real sense If we can begin to talk and accept of freedom as Haudensaunee people in our ourselves as distinct people, then all we need home lands, we want to exist in peace with to talk about is what is the relationship the foundation of that Two Row. It is going to be. Our suggestion to you is the spelled out very clearly: peace, friendship Two Rows, because in there it allows the and respect. Very simple words but peace is equality, it allows our existence as distinct a constant struggle to rid the world of B-9312 inhuman injustice. It is not something that M. Ciaccia: II faudrait que cela soit put us asleep. It is an activity. It is an limité. On va continuer, mais il faut siéger activity that we have taken on since we en Chambre à 14 heures, il va falloir quand have been giving those tools in giving that même... direction by our Creator. This is the reason why you are able to enjoy your life today. Le Président (M. Rancourt): II faut This is the reason why you are able to enter prendre conscience que nous devrons être ici our Country. It is because we believe in pour respecter l'engagement que nous avons peace. We want that friendship and we pris de rencontrer la Bande amérindienne de respect your people. Those can be the Kanesatake à 14 heures. Nous allons foundation of our government and they are. poursuivre et entendre des questions, au They can be the foundation of your maximum jusqu'à 13 heures et 30 minutes. government and also the foundation of our M. le député de Châteauguay. relationship. We see that we are going to enter into M. Dussault: M. le Président, a period of time because of the Federal malheureusement, je vais devoir quitter dans Government's idea of self-government, a les prochaines minutes, parce que j'avais un period of turmoil and we want you to be rendez-vous à 13 heures. Étant donné que les aware of that. As a growing people, as a invités de la réserve indienne de Kahnawake people who have gained back their strenght sont des gens qui sont au coeur du comté de and are unifying our people, and are making Châteauguay, des voisins, des amis de la great strives to continue our existence as population du comté de Châteauguay, je the Haudenosaunee, we are going to put all regrette de devoir quitter. J'aurais voulu leur our efforts to ensure that our people enjoy poser quelques questions. the freedom and peace that we believe in so Je dois dire que les dernières heures strongly. ont été pour moi un des moments les plus There is no magic, I cannot change any intéressants de ma vie de parlementaire. J'ai of it. We have our médecine, our power and découvert énormément à travers l'information we can extend that to you. We can qu'on nous a donnée aujourd'hui. C'est pour strenghten your people in this country if you cela que cela me fait davantage de peine de could come to some kind of understanding of devoir quitter. Je voudrais assurer nos amis humanity, of what real humanity is, of the de Kahnawake que j'entrerai en commu- basic relationship to the natural world. What nication avec eux dans les prochains we want you to remember in your struggle jours pour que nous puissions continuer ce as a French State to achieve French state- dialogue qui a été commencé aujourd'hui. hood in North America is that you do not Merci. oppress Haudenosaunee, that you do not oppress the natural world of Haudenosaunee, Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le that you do not oppress the natural world ministre, Délégué aux relations avec les that we, Haudenosaunee, protect. We ask you citoyens. that, because, if you are unable to do that, then, you will be a part of the turmoil that M. Lazure: M. le Président, au nom du will exist in our lands again. gouvernement, je voudrais remercier le chef We are a strong and committed people. Norton et les autres chefs du Conseil de We believe in all the virtues and values and bande de Kahnawake, remercier M. Deer et principles of our way of live. So, I add that ses collègues du comité, non pas pour le to the fire that we have built before you, mémoire qu'ils nous ont présenté, mais plutôt there has been much information that has pour la leçon d'histoire qu'ils nous ont been given to you. So now, we will turn it fournie ce matin. over to our person who will handle the Depuis 10 heures ce matin, nous avons questions that you will have on your minds. appris énormément. Cela était un des buts très précis de cette commission parlementai- Le Président (M. Rancourt): S'il vous re de permettre aux groupes autochtones de plaît. J'ai un problème. Nous devions venir éclairer d'abord et avant tout les par- terminer à treize heures. Est-ce qu'il y lementaires des deux partis politiques mais aurait un consentement? Avez-vous une aussi l'ensemble de la population, puisque ces possibilité de poursuivre quelques minutes débats sont télévisés. Je suis sûr que cette pour certaines questions? M. le ministre? leçon d'histoire que vous nous avez fournie ce matin est de nature à améliorer les M. Lazure: Oui. relations que nous devons continuer d'avoir, comme vous l'avez dit vous-même tantôt, M. Ciaccia: Nous pourrions poursuivre pendant très longtemps. Vous n'avez pas le quelques instants. goût de partir, nous n'avons pas le goût de partir. Le Président (M. Rancourt): Vous êtes Je voudrais aussi tout de suite vous d'accord pour poursuivre. remercier pour le message qui nous a été B-9313 transmis, le message que votre peuple nous a from both sides of the House, because the transmis par votre bouche. Ce message est previous Government drew the Agreement. bien apprécié et nous vous demandons de We agree with the Agreement. We supported transmettre à votre peuple nos voeux de that Agreement. We are saying our dialogue bonne santé, nos voeux d'une vie quotidienne which has made a big step this morning, this qui ira en s'améliorant. is a historical step as far as we are M. le premier ministre regrette de ne concerned... This is the first time a pouvoir participer à la commission ce matin. government in Québec City holds a special Il y a participé hier. Il y a un Conseil des parliamentary commission strictly devoted to ministres aujourd'hui toute la journée. Le the rights and preoccupations of the Native conseil de notre "bande" se réunit People. This is a historical step. We say to aujourd'hui. Malheureusement, malgré tous you we want to deal with you from equal to ses talents notre premier ministre n'a pas equal. We do not want to impose to you, on encore réussi ce tour de force d'être à deux you, the same terms that were acceptable to endroits à la fois. Mais de la même façon your Cree brothers with the James Bay que votre comité parle au nom des grands Agreement. We are opened to negociate with responsables de la Confédération iroquoise, je you on the basis of self-respect, mutual self- suis chargé de parler au nom de notre grand respect. chef ce matin. Je suis chargé aussi d'écouter Now, practical problems, inclosing this avec des oreilles aussi bien nettoyées que time goes on: I have accepted the invitation vous nous l'avez souhaité tantôt et de extended to me and I will visit your regarder avec des yeux aussi clairs que vous community, next Friday, December 2, and I nous l'avez souhaité tantôt. Je suis donc will go there as an emissary of our chargé, au nom du gouvernement, de prendre Government. I am not going there as an bonne note de tout ce que vous nous avez individual, as a tourist. I will be going there dit ce matin et de ce que vous allez as a representative of our Government. We continuer à nous dire. know certain subjects you want to discuss. Nous respectons la volonté de votre We were be prepared to discuss these communauté de ne pas participer aux subjects, particularly the hospital. We have délibérations qui se tiennent à Ottawa set aside the money to build the hospital. actuellement dans le cadre d'une révision des We have a problem that we want to solve rapports entre le gouvernement fédéral et les with you. We are faced with two sets of nations autochtones. C'est votre droit, c'est laws, two sets of customs. You have your votre liberté totale. own rights, your own customs, your own laws as it was so well explained this morning. We I would like to say to chief Norton also have a set of rules, a set of laws and a that we have never attempted, our set of customs in terms of dispensing public Government has never attempted, in any way money, in terms of dispensing health whatsoever, to pretend to represent native services. So, having in mind this mutual self- groups or, for that matter, to be more respect, we will try - and I am confident specific, the Kahnawake Band. We have only that we will find it - a way to reconcile you said to your community, as we have said to own wishes, your own ways of conducting all the other native communities: We put at health services and our own obligations your disposal seats that we have around the towards the population that elected us. table at the Federal-Provincial Conference, each province having two seats. We offer That also includes the other specific you - if you want to accept the offer; you problems, that is the only one I will deal do not have to - to be part of our dele- with, the specific problem of nurses having gation and to speak from one of the two right now to pass examinations. We will find chairs that we have and say whatever you a solution of that problem. We will find a want - not what we want to hear - to speak solution. So, in conclusion, I again wish to as freely as chief Billy Two Rivers spoke congratulate all of you for this very positive, this morning. He spoke very freely. constructive approach that you have shown So I want to make this clear. We have this morning; again, please convey to your made no attempt whatsoever to influence population, your brothers and sisters all the your position with regard to the Constitu- best regards of our Government. I would be tional Conferences regarding native rights or looking forward to see you in about a week. self-government. Merci. (13 h 15) We have entered into agreements with Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le some of your brothers, as you well know, député de Mont-Royal. particularly the Cree brothers from the North and in spite of several shortcomings or M. Ciaccia: M. le Président. The things that have to be corrected in the remarks of the Minister. Towards first of all, implementation of the Agreement, we have I want to thank you for the presentation heard yesterday that, generally speaking, the that you made. I think that it will bring out Agreement is a good Agreement and this is to the population of Québec some very B-9314 serious problems that exist, not only who have asked to be heard and we just problems that exist on the Kahnawake have to allocate the time. I want you to reserve, but a different way of looking at understand this: the Government is the final Native rights and the position of the arbiter as the who is heard, the time that is Haudenosaunee Confederacy. It is a totally allowed and the length of the hearings. The different perspective and, at least, the Government has chosen that there are three population will have had the opportunity of days to hear I do not know how many briefs. seeing what you had to say. So, obviously, we do not have the time to go The remarks of the Minister, in my into all the details. mind, must confirm your views of However, I think that the reaction of Government because he has been very any Government, either they should tell you paternalistic and he thanks you for your they agree with what you say, they should positive and constructive attitude; he even have the guts to tell you that they do not. talks to you about brothers. But he really And that, they do not have. They have not has not answered any of the specific told you that they are not prepared to problems that you have raised. You have a recognize you as a nation. He should say real problem with hospitals. Did he tell you that so that you know where he stands, so that he is going to solve that problem and that you will not have to come back always how he is going to give you the moneys? He and say the same things to Governments. told you that there is a problem with nurses. This is one of the problems because in the There is a law before the National Assembly past you have always been given words, right now, Bill 57. It does not solve your soothing words that have not been followed problem on nurses but he has given you by any concrete action. If they have, they another delay, he is going to come and visit have not been in accordance with the needs, you. It is unfortunate that Government has the requirements of your own particular to take that kind of an attitude because communities. I think that it is time that they confirm what you think about Governments stop putting on shows, because a parliamentary committee is a big show. It Government, what you think about us and lets a Government say: We are interested in you get no action, you get no response. All Native people; come and talk to us. Then, you keep on getting is promises, the future: they put twelve groups in three days so we You, nice people, we are brothers, and peace cannot ask questions, and what is going to and respect and dignity. But concrete actions happen to the consequences of the are not there. I found most interesting your presentation that you made? Your hospital? views on self-determination, on yourself You will not be able to come back before being a nation. You have the criteria of a this committee. You are going to have to nation: you have your language, you have deal with somebody in the government, and your culture, you have your lands and you you have dealt with them for 20 years and consider yourself a nation. nothing has happened. The nurses, the law is And you even recognized the right of before the National Assembly, it does not this Government to try and become an solve your problem, they did not put independent state. But did the Minister anything in that law, which they could have recognize your rights to become independent? done very easily, to solve the problem at the I would like to know what the Minister Caughnawaga reserve. So, I think that we thinks. I know what they said yesterday, that should call a spade a spade. the principles, in terms of recognition of aboriginal rights, do not include the sovereignty of Indian Nations. So, something M. Deer: I would like to respond to Mr. that they are prepared to claim for Ciaccia's comments. themselves as a Government - they want independence, they do not want to be part Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Deer. of Canada - they are not prepared to recognize your right to the same principles. I M. Deer: We have been instructed by find a little bit difficult to accept that one of the women that we do not like to certain principles can apply to one group of get involved in the internal politics of people, but they cannot apply to another Québec. We would rather deal with you as group of people. Québécois. We do not involve you in our I would have liked the Minister to internal politics, in our internal divisions, we address the basis of your whole presentation. do not wish to be involved in the internal Unfortunately, we do not have the time to divisions of Québec or Ontario, or New York go into the details of the problems that you or Canada or the United States. raised, because you raised many serious problems, not only on the question of Indian M. Ciaccia: I do not want you to Nations but deep philosophical problems misinterpret my statements. I do not want to about our whole society. But whether it is involve you in our problems. These are our by design or by accident, we just do not problems, you have enough of yours. What I have the time; there are too many groups was asking for the Government is to respond B-9315 to the demands that you made. Not by just jour? Il laisse entendre que nous n'avons pas saying I am going to come and visit the pris position. Nous avons une position très reserve or, yes, we will look at this problem claire là-dessus. in the future, but to respond to the demands In conclusion, I would like again to that you made on your land claims. Are they thank the representatives of the Mohawk prepared to sit down and negotiate with you? Nation, the representatives of the You have land claims. Are they prepared to "Confédération iroquoise" and I can only say set up a body to say: O.K., we are going to that we do have high hopes that this com- recognize aboriginal rights and we are going mission, not only will be followed by a to sit down and have a formal mechanism, permanent commission, a permanent forum so we can deal with Native rights? where we will meet, at least once a year, Are they prepared to seat with you and all Native groups that want to be heard, but formalize a discussion? Not just a that we will also take concrete steps to parliamentary committee of this nature but discuss and to resolve some of the daily on an ungoing formalized basis. We could problems that you find in your community. have underlined very many other specific Merci. problems that you have raised but, (13 h 30) unfortunately, we do not have the time. As Le Président (M. Rancourt): Je far as we are concerned on this side of the remercie donc le porte-parole... parliamentary committee, we are saying that is not enough just to have this parliamentary M. Deer: We would like to make two committee. Maybe, it is a beginning but it is short responses and then we will close the a promise that they have made in their meeting. program that they would have a permanent parliamentary committee, which has never M. Ciaccia: On behalf of the been done. I think we should start becoming Opposition, I, too, would like to thank the more concrete, the government should have representatives of the Six Nations more concrete proposals and respond more Confederacy and the members of the adequately to the needs of the Native Caughnawaga Band Council for the people. Not just with promises and good presentation that they have made. words but with actual actions. Le Président (M. Rancourt): Very Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le briefly, please. ministre délégué aux Relations avec les citoyens. M. Antone: Oust a short response and my brother here, on my left, will also M. Lazure: M. le Président, le député respond. de Mont-Royal affiche, comme cela est We would like to thank you for your souvent son habitude, une attitude très invitation to the two seats that you have partisane, et le représentant du comité a when you are meeting with the Federal très bien apprécié - ou a très mal apprécié, Government. But we want you to understand cela dépend du point de vue où l'on se place clearly that we cannot accept those seats as a très bien compris cette attitude Haudenosaunee, because, according to the partisane. Le député de Mont-Royal ne Two Row Wampum, we cannot leave our comprend pas que les représentants qui sont canoe, we cannot enter your ship. So, ici devant nous sont venus d'abord et avant because of that, we cannot participate and tout non pas pour quêter des réponses sur tel sit with you, because would be a violation of ou tel problème, mais qu'ils sont venus ici the treaty and of the agreement that our d'abord et avant tout pour que nous forefathers have made. comprenions mieux leur position et que la The other thing is that we understand société québécoise comprenne mieux leur that your form of democracy has oppositions position. and we enjoy watching you sometimes in On nous a mis au courant aujourd'hui your debates. Our fathers and grandfathers qu'il y avait un problème, par exemple, pour have always told us that when these people l'obtention des certificats d'infirmière, et ce would come to our land, they would struggle n'est pas seulement par une décision gouver- for many years to form a true democracy; nementale que ce problème peut être résolu. and in that time, we had to be patient with Il y a aussi l'Ordre des infirmières qui doit them because they believed in opposites. So entrer en ligne de compte. Le député de you have entertained us today with that, and Mont-Royal tente de simplifier à l'extrême, we see that you have a lot to learn yet de rendre les problèmes simplistes. Le when we talk about the question of humanity premier ministre a dit hier: Nous prenons and how we are supposed to conduct l'engagement d'établir une commission parle- ourselves in a good way and express only mentaire permanente. Nous l'avons pris cet good feelings. You know that this problem is engagement. Est-ce qu'il faut, pour le député the problem of all of us, not just those who de Mont-Royal, le rappeler cinq fois par assume power now and those who are in the B-9316

Opposition. But surely you can take the though, and we will continue, as we said, to words that we have offered to you, to pull pursue our legitime aspirations; and as soon all of our minds together and to begin as we can get down to concrete talks, with working on the future and forget about the Canada for the moment, and if you do opposites that we hold too. become a nation, with you as well, about As you can see, we have come here. this reality, about this changing reality, the At one time we were opposites created by better the future will be for all of us. Thank foreign Governments. But we come here with you. the same message, the same feelings. We do not display our opposition. We try to speak Le Président (M. Rancourt): Je remercie our good minds. Of course, at times our donc la Bande amérindienne de Kahnawake et emotions are strong, but it is the will of our le Comité des droits territoriaux des future that speaks, not a disrespect for Haudenosaunis. Nous allons suspendre notre humanity. réunion jusqu'à 14 heures et nous So I just wanted to clarify that. But respecterons la rencontre que nous avons there are some other points you raised that avec la Bande amérindienne des Kanesatake we can immediately respond to. à 14 heures cet après-midi. Merci.

Le Président (M. Rancourt): ... M. Deer: Mr. Chairman, we would still try to go ahead with our closing ritual which M. Myers: We recognize that you have will be done by Paul Delaronde and which a semantical habit of referring to yourself as will be brief. a nation in terms of a National Assembly and a Prime Minister, etc. But unfortunately, M. Delaronde: (S'exprime dans sa the political reality at the moment is that langue). you are still a province. In terms of our I am going to try to translate this and Government, we know that, at this moment, make it as short as possible but to the we have to pursue the national question with point. each other at the level of Canada; that In our ways, whenever we gathered there are local, territorial problems that earlier, whether it would be a social would also have to be confronted by our gathering, a gathering for council, or local community and that our committee will whether it would be for ceremonies, support fully. However the people of those festivals, there is always required in our way local communities are determined to regain that we open with an opening ritual. It is their homeland, to establish more autonomy also required that whenever we have over their lives, whatever... completed what we have gathered for, that We agree with Mr. Ciaccia that we there should be a closing, and so again all recognize the parliamentary committees are who have gathered here, that we should shows, that they are staging grounds, thay gather our minds together and give our they are used, more clearly by your people, thanks that it seems that we had a very as arenas for popularizing certain political good meeting. It does not seem there are thoughts or starting ground for launching new bad feelings between us. Many good words ideas among your people or among your were spoken; we feel good for ourselves; we party or whatsoever. And we also come here have educated you to some of the history with the same attitude in recognizing what and for some, we have reminded you some the game is: we have launched a new idea of the history. It was good - because there for you to wrestle with both the Liberals are many more people who are watching as and the Parti québécois and any other party was mentioned - that they also have you have in Québec, to see if you all, as received an education that they will not get Europeans, can come of a mind about this in any educational institution in the province question of our sovereignty, to come to it. I of Québec. am equally worried about what your side of It was good and we are glad that we the table has to say about it, because we have had this opportunity to come and to have watched the Liberals very closely. We present our position as the Haudenosaunee know how to deal with you too and we have people. So we should be glad that all went seen your paternalism just as well as we well and that we should all give our special have seen "Parti québécois" or PC or NDP greetings to each other. or whatever you want to say. We are all affected by the same thing. None of you are Again we should turn our direction exclusive of it and you all have to work it towards the one who is our mother, the out just like you have to work out your earth, because from her comes so much. She feelings about "Parti québécois" wanting to holds all the creatures on her body that the be our new friends, or whatever it is they Creator has put here. She holds all the plant want. life that the Creator has put here. She holds the water that we need. She does so much So, we recognize the gain, we are for us and all the things that the Creator willing to play it only to a certain degree has put here, continue to give us life, B-9317 continue to give us peace of mind, continue respecté cet engagement. Nous allons donner to give us happiness. la parole à la Bande amérindienne de So, again, we should gather our minds Kanesatake et vous avisons à l'avance que, together as one mind and give our mother quoi qu'il arrive, à 15 heures nous devrons and all the things that she holds upon her, suspendre la séance pour revenir par la suite. very special thanks, very special greetings. Donc, je donne la parole au chef Joseph We should also turn our direction to Nelson, lequel voudra bien présenter les the different beings that are in the sky, our personnes qui l'accompagnent. Your name, grandfather the four winds, our grandfather please. the thunders, our grandmother the moon, our brother the sun. They also give us life. They Bande amérindienne de Kanesatake also give us what we need in order to survive. They help the cycle of life that the M. Pelletier (Gerry): Mr. Chairman, my Creator has made. We should never forget name is Gerry Pelletier. I would like to these things. We should never take for make some corrections on that list. granted that these things are there in the sky just to look at them. We should never Le Président (M. Rancourt): Yes, all forget what their functions are. Again, let us right. gather our minds together in a very special way and give them thanks and greetings. M. Pelletier: The best way to do this is Now, this to you, to all of us, who are to introduce the people who are sitting with gathered here. We are going to part. When me. we do so, we are going to go back to our homes, to our families, to our communities. Le Président (M. Rancourt): Yes, it is Let us wish that as we do so, there the best way. would be nothing in our path to hurt anyone that we all reach our homes safely, so we M. Pelletier: I will start on my may again enjoy the people who are closest immediate left, Grand Chief Hugh Nicholas, to us. on my far right, Chief Wesley Nicholas, and (13 h 45) Diane Sorka, our legal counsellor. Now we should take internal direction towards the mightiest of the powers, that is Le Président (M. Rancourt): O.K. You the Creator, God, whatever name you have are ready. Your brief, if possible. for it, is one of the same. We should give a very, very special thanks, try our hardest to M. Pelletier: Mr. Chairman, Mr. gather our minds as one mind and give the Minister, Ladies and Gentlemen of this Creator a very special greeting, a very committee, we would like to take this special thanks; and to remember that it is opportunity to express our appreciation for the Creator that created the earth, the sun, allowing us to present our thoughts and the moon, the stars, the water, the plants, views to you. At the outset, we would like the animals, the birds, the insects officially; to make it very clear that we are here and have respect for all these things and representing only the Mohawks from have respect for the Creator, as was Kanesatake. I believe we have stated this to intended. the Government of Québec at various I guess that is all 1 have to say. In our meetings we had with them. We have stated way, for us, the meeting is closed now. this position through our task force meeting on the Constitution. Therefore, we want Le Président (M. Rancourt): Les travaux again reiterate that position: We are only sont suspendus jusqu'à 14 heures. here representing the Mohawks from Kanesatake. (Suspension de la séance à 13 h 46) We are members of the Aboriginal people's Québec task force on the Constitution, because we believe that it is (Reprise de la séance à 14 h 20) important to seek Québec support in entrenching our rights in the Canadian Le Président (M. Rancourt): À l'ordre, Constitution. That does not mean that we s'il vous plaît! want the Québec Government to speak on Nous allons reprendre la commission our behalf. I believe that that clarification élue permanente de la présidence du conseil was made this morning by the Minister. We et de la constitution pour entendre les have also stated that in our past meetings. représentations des autochtones et des divers Therefore, it is also important to us groupes et organismes autochtones sur les that the Québec Government signs the 1983 droits et les besoins fondamentaux des accord and fully participates at all future Amérindiens et des Inuits. meetings for the First Minister's Nous devions nous présenter ici à 14 Conferences. Yesterday's presentations by the heures. Je regrette que nous n'ayons pas spokepersons of the Aboriginal peoples B-9318

Québec task force in the Constitution, we Oka as a "reserve". stated that, and I would like to quote from Our purpose, Mr. Chairman, in our presentation yesterday: "Subject to our appearing before this committee, is to fundamental position set out in paragraph C continue our resistance against any and as to confirm Québec support for the interference in our community, in our lands, recognition of our rights achieved at the in our lives, an interference which threatens 1983 First Ministers Conference, various our culture, our identity and our livelihood. groups - I like to emphasize that - of We wish to speak of two principal forms of peoples of Québec may wish to conclude interference: first, the forced application of immediately with the Government of Québec the non-Indian laws and institutions upon us an agreement or an accord which provides and, second, a consistent, a persistent for the tabling before the National Assembly erosion of our landbase. of a resolution substantially in conformity (14 h 30) with the schedule to the 1983 Constitutional We have been encouraged to appear Accord on Aboriginal rights. before your committee by the results of the After hearing the whole stories from work of another legislative committee the Grand Council of the Crees in their charged with the responsibility of enquiring presentation yesterday afternoon in regards into and reporting upon a vital aspect of to the problems they are experiencing, to Indian affairs. We refer, of course, to the the lack of commitments on behalf of the House of Commons special committee on Government of Québec in implementing the Indian-Self Government, which released its James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement. report entitled "Indian Self-Government in For these reasons, the Kanesatake Canada", several weeks ago. The unanimous Mohawk Council is not prepared to sign any report supported by the members of the agreement or accord with the Government of committee from the three federal political Québec. We are a small reserve and sitting parties is a fine example of the potential for down with the Government of Québec is legislative committees such as yours. We are something new for us. We will have to confident that the special committee on approach any agreements with Québec with Indian Self-Government by its frank, extreme caution. We believe that the Crees creative, non-partisan and forward looking and the Inuits entered into an agreement approaches will have a significant influence with the Government of Québec in good in moving the government's policy toward a faith. But it seems, from what we have greater recognition of an equity for Indian heard yesterday afternoon and last night, people, in making the public at large more that the Government of Québec has not lived sensitive towards the legitimate demands of up to its agreements and its commitments. the Indian people. We trust at you in part on We also fully support those various your task with equivalent if not a greater Aboriginal groups of Québec who may wish ambition. to sign an agreement or an accord with We mention that the first major area Québec, just like we support those Indian of interference which we wish to address nations who decided not to participate on was that respecting the application of non- the Constitution process or who wish not to Indian laws and institutions to our community be part of the task force on the Aboriginal and our people. The presentation you heard peoples of Québec on the Constitution. this morning by the Kahnawake Band Council The Kanesatake Mohawk people are one also made mention of such problems. The of the original Five Nations of the Iroquois special committee identified a number of Confederacy, which occupied in pre-contract factors interfering with Indian Self- times the territory where our reserve is Government. While the present Indian Act presently situated. At the present time, we and the interference by the ministers of number approximately 950 and occupy lands Indian Northern Affairs under that Act of both in the village of Oka and to the west course was mentioned, so was the question of the village. While the present Indian of the application of provincial laws. The landholding pattern at Oka is entirely committee stated at page 19 of the report, I unsatisfactory, we point out that the quote: "Even the limited powers of the Band Government of Québec has recognized the Councils are further diminished because they existence of an Indian community and cannot be rendered invalid by the federal "reserve" lands at the Lake of the Two- laws, federal regulations and the ministers Mountains. disallowance. Provincial laws of general application also interfere with the Band As examples, we cite the Regulation Council's powers. Councils are virtually respecting the Taxation Act, order in Council powerless as governments." The problem of 1981-80, June 25th, 1980, Section 488-R and course has been that both the federal and schedule F, which includes Oka in the list of the provincial Governments have refused to "reserves", as well as the Regulation recognize traditional forms of Indian respecting Indians Order in Council 2242-81, Government and have assumed that the only dated August 19, 1981, made under the solution to fulfilling the vacuum was to Québec Retail Sales tax Act, which also lists B-9319 apply their own laws and values. This line or nation as a nation from the Great Spirit, our argument of course led to the assumption Creator. that most advanced Indian people are those We assert the right to maintain our who had adopted the non-Indian society's own unique institutions and to exercise Self- institutions and values. government unhampered by paternalistic As the special committee stated in one federal or provincial Governments. The of its most telling statements, page 136 of assertion of these rights poses no threat to the report: "In the past, the prevailing the Québec society or its non-Indian approach to indigenous people has been to populations. It is merely a legitimate demand hold up eventual self-government as a reward to be masters in our own house. for adapting to the custom of the dominant The objective of Indian self-government society. This assumption must be turned on is being pursued through several channels. its head, indigenous people would evolve and First, Indian First Nation Government is prosper only under self-government." a priority subject on the agenda for the next The fact is that Indian Governments First Ministers' Conference on Aboriginal and Institutions existed before the arrival of Constitutional Matters scheduled for March the Europeans in Canada. The special of next year. Premier Lévesque has indicated committee pointed out with particular on a number of occasions that he supports reference to the institution of the Iroquois the Aboriginal Peoples of Québec in their Confederacy. The committee stated, at page efforts to have greater recognition of their 12 of the report: "Particularly relevant to aboriginal and treaty rights entrenched in the this report on Indian Self-Government it is Constitution of Canada. We assume that this the view held by non-Indian that political position will be maintained with respect to structures were unknown to Indian people the right to self-government. prior to contact with the Europeans. Second, the Special Committee on Contrary to this view most first nations have Indian Self-Government, while recommending complex forms of government that go for that the Federal Government commit itself back into history and have evolved over to constitutional entrechment of self- time. They often operate in accord with government as soon as possible, recommends spiritual values because religion was not further that in the meantime, as a separate from other aspects of first nation's demonstration of its commitment, the life. Indian nations have not generally Federal Government should introduce written constitutions but, like England, legislation that would lead to the maximum conduct their affairs on the basis of possible degree of Self-government traditions modified with pragmatic immediately. We ask that the Government of innovations. Witnesses gave evidence to the Québec not oppose or frustrate any such Committee of how these Indian political attempts to maximize Indian self-government concepts had directly affected non-Indian through federal legislation but that rather, it institutions. Specifically, they described how assist in any way possible. the political philosophy of the Iroquois Third, as a very concrete step for our Confederacy has been incorporated into the own community, we ask for immediate Constitution of the United States." recognition by the Government of Québec of As we stated at the commencement of our laws and institutions and a halt to the our submission, the Kanesatake (Oka) Mohawk insistence that provincial laws which people are part of one of the original Five interfere with our customs and institutions Nations of the Iroquois Confederacy. This be applied and enforced. Confederacy was founded and operated upon We seek the assistance of this basic principles of democracy which ensured Committee in making the strongest possible the right of each community to recommendations on the above-mentioned representation in matters of concern to the points. several nations generally, the right to Erosion of our land base and the participate in the resolution of issues of importance of our land claim. We have long general importance and the right of people argued that an adequate land and resource at the local level to determine their own base is absolutely necessary to the exercise course of action in their own affairs. of self-government and a viable community. The Mohawk people of Kanesatake still Such a land and resource base is absolutely adhere to these basic principles, although the lacking for our community. We argued this application of these principles has been point strongly before the special committee somewhat attenuated over the years through on Indian Self-Government and our testimony displacement, by the imposition of outside on this point was reported by the Committee legislation and through Government policies on piece 113 of its report. We stated, and I and actions. We maintain, however, that we will quote: "Until our land claim is are sovereign peoples and that this recognized and until the Government of sovereignty is inherent in our status as First Canada recognizes our land base and our Nations, not granted by any government but territorial jurisdiction, Indian Self- existing on its own right. It is a gift to each Government will be an illusion. The B-9320

Government of Canada must seriously reserve at Kanesatake have not been illegally undertake to negotiate our land claims so extinguished or expropriated, there has that our people will have a land base upon occurred, over the past two centuries, a which to build our Indian Self-Government." persistent erosion of our land base at the We believe that it is important for this Lake of Two Mountains through committee of the National Assembly to encroachment, sales, grants of land and understand our claim and the importance of development activity. protecting the lands subject to that claim This persistent erosion of the Mohawk until an equitable, negotiated settlement is lands, at the Lake of Two Mountains, does achieved. The Mohawk People of Kanesatake not constitute, in any way, an extinguishment (OKA) claim unextinguished aboriginal or of the legal rights of the Mohawk people to Indian title to the lands in the vicinity of these lands. It is grounds for stating, the Lake of Two Mountains, which the however, that the various governments have evidence shows has been recognized, not respected and fulfilled their obligations, confirmed and reinforced by the Acts of clearly established in law and policy, to various Governments through history. protect the interests of the Indian people in In addition, history clearly reveals that lands, to deal that interest in accordance there was the creation of a reserve at the with the dictates of established law and Lake of Two Mountains by setting aside a practice and to compensate adequately and tract of land measuring approximately 260 properly Indian people who are divested of square miles for the use and benefit of our their lands. people in virtue of the original grants from This historical erosion has been the French Crown, first in 1717 and later in recognized by all who examined the question. 1733. In 1941, the Honourable Mr. Crear, Minister A detailed land claim asserting the of the Department of Indian Affairs, wrote, foregoing was submitted to the Gov- and I will quote: "I am informed that the ernment of Canada in 1977. The claim seigniory was originally divided into twelve document runs to approximately 220 pages parishes and that eleven of them were and was accompanied by several volumes of alienated by the seigniory many years ago, documentation, as well as maps illustrating and that the twelfth, in which Oka is the extent of the original grants. The claim situated, is the only one where any property is being reviewed by the Federal Government has been left. I am further informed that, in of Justice and we are hoping that a positive recent years, the seigniory made further opinion will be forthcoming in the near sales of the property, a good portion of future. We expect negotiations on the claim which had, up to that time, been considered to commence shortly thereafter. common lands of the Indians and which was As we have already mentioned since used by them for pasturing their cattle and the presentation of our claim, the new their horses, and as wood lots. You are Constitution has been enacted - the aware that the Indians strenuously opposed Constitution Act, 1982 - which provides an the latter sale and it is needless to say that explicit recognition of aboriginal and treaty they will more strongly oppose any action rights. Section 35 (1) of the Constitution that may be taken now or in the future to Act, 1982, reads, and I quote: "The existing disturb their rights of residence to remaining aboriginal and treaty rights of the Aboriginal unsold lands; that is, to those areas which Peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and you now suggest should be purchased by the affirmed." government for them." These are the rights which we are During the 1960's, the Mohawks of asserting and which we wish to bring to your Kanesatake were forced to see a large attention. While we do not intend to repeat portion of their land taken for the purpose the questions of law, history and equity set of a golf course. Once again, no attempt out in detail in our claim, we believe it was made even to consult with the Indian most important that the Government of people let alone to deal with their interests Québec and, for the present purposes, in the land. Included in the brief to the particularly this committee, be aware of the Joint Committee of the Senate and the basis and extent of the claim. In particular, House of Commons of Indian Affairs and as we have done consistently in the presented by the Mohawks of Kanesatake in past, we argue that nothing should be done 1961, was the following statement: "A most to the lands in and around Oka, which would acute example of this encroachment has affect our rights or prejudice negotiations occurred recently. À portion of the seigniory toward a settlement of our claims. has, for centuries, been known as the (14 h 45) "common lands" on which by ancient use and habit the Indians have been accustomed to We must regard the recent cut wood and raise their cattle. Title to developments in and around Oka in the these lands passed from the seigniory into context of the constant threat of erosion of private hands, and much of it now vests in our land base at Oka. Although our the municipality of Oka which intends to use aboriginal title and the specific title to the B-9321 them for a golf course. our community. Possibly doubtful of its right to deprive We ask ourselves at this time whether the Indians of their former enjoyment, the our words in 1961 quoted above respecting municipality secured the passage of a private the priority given non-Indian recreation over bill through the Québec Legislature in our interests, legal, social, cultural and December 1959, affirming its ownership. Now economic, were not appropriate for that the axe is being laid to the roots of the situation in which the Department of splendid trees in the area, roads long used Recreation, Fish and Game again apparently by Indians are being closed and bulldozers was planning for the recreational needs of are completing the work of destruction. The the non-Indian population without the income of the Indians is reduced and their reference to the rights, the needs or the freedom of movement restricted, in order aspirations of the Mohawks of Kanesatake. that the white man may have more Since the original intention of the opportunities for recreation. What was once French Crown to recognize our interests in a reserved for Indian use and profit is now specific territory which was questioned reserved for golf. immediately by the Seminary of St-Sulpice, The appropriation by the Govern- our lands have been under attack. In this ment of Canada, of lands comprising a respect, the facts speak for themselves. substantial portion of the lands covered by From an original track of land totalling 260 the original grants for the purposes of the square miles set apart by the French Crown Montreal International Airport, Mirabel, was for our ancestors, the land base has been yet another example of the dealings with the whittled away until today only 2000 acres lands in region without reference to the are recorded as lands set aside for the rights of the Mohawks of Kanesatake. It is Mohawks of Kanesatake. calculated that approximately 111,4 square Throughout the 280 year period of miles of the original tract of approximately illegal dispossession our position has been 259,1 square miles or 43% of the total lands consistant. We have argued for our rights were affected by the actions of the and made representations to Governments. Government of Canada in this regard. With respect to recent history, we have As a final example of development mentioned representations to the special taking place at Oka without reference to the committee of the Senate and the House of rights in interests of the Mohawks of Commons on Indian Affairs in 1961 and the Kanesatake, we wish to mention the recent representations made in 1973 respecting construction of a natural gas pipeline close planning for the Mirabel Airport, our land to the village. claims submitted in 1977 and our submissions Planning and land use in and around to Mr Guy Chevrette in November 1982, you Oka. will appreciate therefore that our appearance In regard to the various initiatives by before this committee is not without the Government of Québec in the area of pretence. planning and land use for Oka and vicinity, The basic position of Mohawks we wish to point out that we interviened in Kanesatake (Oka) remains substantially as late 1983 in an attempt to influence planning presented to the Government of Québec work being undertaken at that time by through SATRA in 1973 and repeated to the SATRA, an agency of the Québec Minister Chevrette in November of last year. Department of Municipal Affairs. These basic points are: The Government of Although only informed of the planning Québec has no right to plan Indian lands; efforts in late September of 1973, two the Indian community does not want months before the deadline of the completion any other autoroutes, roads, bridges, hydro- of studies, we met several times with lines or any other similar undertakings built representatives of SATRA and the in the area; the Indian community (presently Department of Indian Affairs to inform above 950 persons living in the area) is SATRA of the position of the Mohawks of basically agricultural but has no room to Kanesatake and to attempt to influence the expand; planning of the area. Specifically, as always, no planning or development should take our concern was to protect the land base at place in the area until the land claim is Oka and to ensure that our need for land settled; and a community was not prejudiced. it is most important that the In November 1982, we were obliged to outstanding material beauty in the wild life make representations to Mr Guy Chevrette, of the area be conserved. Minister of Recreation, Fish and Games to The principal purpose of this part of argue against the Government proposal to our submission is to inform this committee alter the classification and possibly the of the pending land claim affecting the Oka limits of Park Paul Sauvé situated in our area and to reinterate positions previously lands. As has been the case so often, no submitted to representatives of the reference was made in the government's Government of Québec in respect of planning proposal to our interest of the impact upon and land use for the Oka land and to insist B-9322 that our land claim be dealt with and la présidence du conseil et de la negotiations concluded prior to any changes constitution, qui a pour mandat d'entendre in legal classifications of development on the les représentations des autochtones et des ground. divers groupes et organismes autochtones sur We must ensure that any new action do les droits et les besoins fondamentaux des not fall into the category of historical Amérindiens et des Inuits. encroachment, erosion of Indian land base Nous avions tantôt, à la suspension de referred to above and treated in detail in la séance, nous venions de terminer our claim. l'audience justement de la Bande We thank you for the opportunity to amérindienne de Kanesatake d'Oka et nous appear before your committee and to await en sommes, maintenant, à l'intervention du your efforts as Legislators to influence ministre délégué aux Relations avec les Government policy and public perceptions citoyens. M. le ministre. respecting the Mohawks of Kanesatake (Oka). M. Lazure: M. le Président, merci. Je Le Président (M. Rancourt): Merci, M. veux d'abord remercier les représentants de Pelletier. Now we will ask questions. Can la délégation du Conseil de bande de you be there for a question period after the Kanesatake (Oka). Je voudrais d'abord relever question period, At 4 o'clock? Is if possible quelques points et, si vous me permettez, je you be here at 4 p.m.? vais le faire en anglais puisque la délégation a étudié la langue anglaise et qu'il est M. Pelletier: I am sorry, Mr Chairman, toujours préférable de communiquer we have our own commitment just like the directement. rest of the members of this committee have M. Pelletier said in his initial remarks other commitments. We have to be out of that, from what you heard yesterday from here by 4 o'clock. the Crees, you were not inclined to enter into negotiations, into agreements with Le Président (M. Rancourt): Je dois Quebec on the basis of what you had heard. vous aviser que, suivant l'ordre de la I can only say that I hope, following this Chambre, quand nous commençons à 15 exchange today and other exchanges, that heures à l'Assemblée nationale, nous devons you might modify your position, because if cesser nos travaux ici. Si vous avez une you do read again the brief of the Crees, of minute pour réagir, il vous reste une minute, the "Grand conseil des Cris", you will notice si vous voulez le faire. M. le ministre. on page 16, and I quote: "The performance of the Government of Quebec in regard to M. Lazure: Mr. President, I would just the implementation of the James Bay and like to explain to own guests that we have Northern Quebec Agreement cannot be our own set of rules also as you do. When characterized uniformly"; which means that the House starts à 3 p.m., we cannot sit it is not uniform, it is not white or black, it here. We have to go on the other side and is an appreciation, an evaluation which has sit in our seats for about one hour. What we positives and negatives. And if I continue, on propose to you is that we come back page 17, the following page: "To be fair, we immediately after, around 4 p.m., because must also acknowledge that the James Bay we hold what we call the question period Energy Corporation and Hydro-Quebec have daily. On Wednesday, it is from 3 to 4 p.m. carried out many of their commitments." So we will be right back here around 16 Then, it says: "Nonetheless, there have been p.m. if you can. Can you? important difficulties. Thus, to present a balanced picture, we must acknowledge that there is a positive side to the assessment M. Pelletier: It is for 4 o'clock. We are and a negative side to the assessment." prepared to come back and answer any questions that the committee wants to ask. And I think in all fairness we must keep that in mind; we have given a lot of M. Lazure: Thank you. emphasis on this James Bay Agreement because it has been the first major Le Président (M. Rancourt): Nos agreement. And that agreement was also travaux sont suspendus jusqu'à la fin de la supported by the two parties. Therefore, it is période des questions. important that we pass fair jugments on such agreements. And the Crees have told us at (Suspension de la séance à 15 heures) lenght, yesterday, that they were satisfied in some cases, they were very dissatisfied in other cases. (Reprise de la séance à 16 h 10) I wanted to pick up this point: and I would not want you to leave today with the Le Président (M. Rancourt): À l'ordre, impression that we do not want, you do not s'il vous plaît! Nous allons reprendre la want to reach agreements because the Crees séance de la commission élue permanente de have had difficulties with the B-9323 implementation. comment in regards to the statement that I The second point, and I think I will ask have made about the Cree presentation my boss, who has just come in... Perhaps I yesterday. I do not think that I stated that will just finish my remark and I will ask him all the report has created problems. What I to re-emphasize what he said yesterday. The said was in their own views - and I am not Prime Minister, yesterday, repeated the quoting from the report itself during the commitment that our Government is ready to question and answer period - they feel that table in the National Assembly a very there were areas in the James Bay and solemn declaration which will have in its Northern Québec Agreement that were not content at least as much as the declaration being seriously implemented. They went back of March 1983, the accord of March 1983, into a time factor of how long they had the Federal Accord of March 1983. been trying to get certain things out of the And, therefore, this is in reply to your way. concern that we may not endorse or put our weight behind your expectations from the Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le Federal Government. In other words, we will premier ministre. continue - this has been our policy - to offer groups such as yours to have a place M. Lévesque (Taillon): There is one in our delegation. Some do not wish to take thing I do not know if it was mentioned. I it. Some do, such as yours, and when you do hope I am not going away from the basis of take your place, you speak your own mind, your question, I could not be here yesterday. you speak whatever you want to say, just as As far as the Northern Québec Agreement is Chief Max Gros-Louis testified yesterday, at concerned, there were and there always will the end of the session, when he testified be some difficulties; that was foreseen. So it that he appreciated the fact that we let him was agreed, I think, basically, that both and all of the representatives of the Natives signatories consenting, there should be a say whatever they wanted to say. review when required. We offered that And, finally, my last comment. You review as early as December 1981, but, for have, I understand, made recently a research reasons of getting ready and making sure on your own rights, the Kanesatake or Oka- that their files were complete, our Cree Mohawk group, and we would like, if interlocutors or partners delayed somewhat possible, to have a copy of that report, that review, but it has now been initiated which, I understand, is completed. It is a for at least six months or thereabouts, and lengthy research on your own rights, the last report we received - I could not check with Chief Diamond yesterday - was territorial and other rights, and we want to that it was progressing very well and tell you that we are quite interested in everybody was satisfied, at least, to say the studying this report and then to initiate least, at the way it was going on. This is as discussions with you on the basis of that much as I can say. So it is far for the report. course, I think, in cases like that. Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le premier ministre. Le Président (M. Rancourt): Chief Gerry Pelletier. M. Lévesque (Taillon): Je ne voudrais pas m'immiscer. Malheureusement, à cause M. Pelletier: In regard to the second de la session et du Conseil des ministres, j'ai point that the Minister raised of the land dû manquer une partie de la commission hier claimed documents, it is a document that et aujourd'hui. Je ne voudrais pas does not... We are not saying: That is where m'embarquer dans des choses que je n'ai pas our rights are being spelled out. It is a pu suivre, sauf que je peux bien répéter ce document that was submitted to the Federal que j'ai dit hier. C'est évident que, quant à Government in regards to reclaiming the land nous au moins, sûrement, c'est un strict that was taken illegally away from our minimum en ce qui concerne la substance people, and we are prepared to present to des engagements qui avaient été pris à your Government, for your information, that Ottawa par le gouvernement fédéral. document. But there has to be an Forcément, on espère aussi pouvoir ajouter understanding that this document will not be des choses qui vont plus loin. Sur cette base- used or infringes on the discussions that are là, on présentera, avant les fêtes, une taking place now with the Federal résolution, conformément à l'engagement Government. We also want to make it very qu'on avait pris devant l'Assemblée nationale. clear we do not want that document to be used as a political football between your Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Gerry Government and the official Opposition. Pelletier. M. Lévesque (Taillon): As far as we are M. Pelletier: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. concerned, we can commit ourselves to that. I would like to answer the Minister's first B-9324

M. Pelletier: A second point, I guess, agreements with them. I think it is better to you are raising in regards to signing any try and do that, to try and resolve some of agreement with Québec, I think I made it the problems. Otherwise, they always say in very clear this morning that we are new into abeyance and as to the question of political this process of sitting down with your football that the Prime Minister mentioned, Government and we have not... We are a no... Yes, Chief Pelletier mentioned the small reserve. We do not have the resources undertaking of the Prime Minister that he to hire the expertise that would be required would not use your document as a political to understand some of your laws. I know football. I am sure that he means it. He is that they are creating problems for us just in good faith and he wants an undertaking as much as the federal laws are creating from us. We will certainly not use it as problems for us. I guess when we stated that what you would call a "political football", we do not sign anything with the Québec except I would like to remind the Prime Government at this time, we are just in sort Minister that we can take positions where of exercising the same sort of position that we would urge the Government to fulfill its Québec has taken in regards to the Canadian obligations towards the Native people in Constitution, in that they are opting out. So terms of its agreements or in terms of we would just want to make sure that we negotiations. I hope that you do not can exercise that option. interprete that as being partisan politics. It is our role to try and incite the government Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le to live up to its responsabilities and without député de Mont-Royal. being labelled as a partisan.

M. Ciaccia: Merci, M. le Président. So, Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le Mr. Prime Minister, you see the premier ministre. consequences and the effect of some of your policies. It is a flattery... It is an imitation M. Lévesque (Taillon): Let us say there of the sincerest form of flattery. The is a grey zone in your commitment, but we Mohawks of Kanesatake are following your will have to do. footsteps in taking the example of not wanting to sign agreement. M. Ciaccia: We too have to keep some of our options opened. I know that we do M. Lévesque (Taillon): I think it makes not have all that time because there are sense for them in the present context. other groups that have to be heard. First of all, I would like to thank you for your brief. M. Ciaccia: Except I would like to go I think you referred to many of the problems back to what the Minister previously said in and the approach that you have seems to be response to the Chief's comments on the also within the line of thinking that the James Bay Agreement and the fact that the many other Native groups presented to this Crees have complained that they had certain committee and specially the members of the problems and you deducted from that the Mohawks and the Six Nations Confederacy. fact that they did not want to sign an But you referred specifically to you land agreement. I think that, in this case, while claim. Could you tell us where that land not agreeing totally on the interpretation claim stands and what can this committee or that the Minister is giving to the degree of the Government of Québec do in terms of compliance or not on the part of the helping the Mohawks of Kanesatake to Government, I mean that is something that accelerate or to help you in resolving that has to be appreciated by the Crees and by claim? the Government itself, I would agree that, on this position, that should not be a reason Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mme Sorka. for you not to negotiate with the Government in terms of all the claims that Mme Sorka (Diane): C'est bien cela. you may have including - perhaps I might The claim was submitted to the Federal come to that question afterwards - the land Government, the Office of Native Claims, in claim. The fact that there are certain 1977. The claim itself is about 220 odd difficulties perhaps should not be a bar to pages of historical and legal arguments. trying to negotiate other agreements with There are six very thick volumes of the Government, agreements that you have documents that go along with it. At the to agree on in any event on the contents as moment, the Department of Justice in to the particular problems that you see and Ottawa is considering the claim and we are the kind of solutions that you want in them. waiting for their legal opinion or the Office So, in that respect, I think I would of Native Claims is waiting for their legal agree with the Minister in terms of trying to opinion before commencing negotiations. We encourage native groups of Québec to sign hope that we will have that very shortly and master agreements or to negotiate their that we will get the process started. claims with the Government and sign master B-9325

M. Ciaccia: Does it involve the Le Président (M. Rancourt): Madame. Government of Québec or is it strictly a land claim involving only the Federal Mme Sorka: I understand that the Government? Council of the Band of Oka has agreed to forward a copy to the Government of Mme Sorka: This is a claim that was Québec of this claim so that you will get it made through the federal process, through to know its final details. the Office of Native Claims. It has not been sent to the Government of Québec as a Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le claim as such, although we have spoken of it député de Deux-Montagnes. in a number of public hearings such as this (16 h 30) one. M. de Bellefeuille: Merci, M. le Président. Cela me fait plaisir de saluer le Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le chef Nicholas, le chef Nelson, Mme Sorka et député de Mont-Royal. M. Pelletier. Vous habitez dans ma circons- cription électorale. Je sais que vous ne M. Ciaccia: I presume that it involves reconnaissez pas nécessairement de la même lands around the reserve... façon que les membres de cette commission ce type d'organisation politique et de Mme Sorka: It certainly involves lands découpage du territoire, mais cela ne vous a in and around the area of the Lake of Two- pas empêché, chef Nicholas, d'agir envers Mountains. moi avec une courtoisie que j'ai beaucoup appréciée lorsque vous avez inauguré votre M. Ciaccia: ...which are within the centre communautaire il y a quelque temps. jurisdiction of the Government of Québec. Vous m'avez invité à participer à cette fête, You mentioned that there was still ce que j'ai fait avec beaucoup de joie. Cela developments in that area which could m'a permis de rencontrer un bon nombre de eventually, I presume, prejudice your claims. personnes qui font partie de votre Is there anything you would recommend or communauté. suggest to the government to do at this time Dans votre mémoire, vous nous parlez to protect your claim? de territoires de 260 milles carrés, à la page 8 de la version anglaise, qui ont été Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mme Sorka. accordés aux Indiens sous le régime français - ça doit être sous le règne du Roi-Soleil, Mme Sorka: One of the main points of Louis XIV - dans le secteur d'Oka. Ce our brief today - it is the same point that territoire-là a été, par la suite, érodé. we have made consistently in every public Comme vous le savez, lorsque la hearing that we have attended - is that we Confédération canadienne a été mise sur are requesting - or perhaps insisting is a pied, le gouvernement central s'est mis à better word - that the Government of exercer une juridiction à peu près exclusive Québec do not undertake development in and sur tout ce qui concernait les autochtones. Il around the area of Oka until the land claim semble que ce gouvernement central n'ait is settled, because every time another pas reconnu vos droits sur ces territoires development takes place, whether it is the attribués par la couronne française sous le golf course or whether it is a pipeline or régime français. Et aujourd'hui il ne vous whether it is a proposal for a public park, it reste - vous le dites dans votre mémoire - diminishes the landbase of the Oka band, and qu'un millier d'acres alors qu'à l'origine vous what we are requesting is a freeze on that aviez ces 260 milles carrés. area until the land claim is settled so that Ce qui m'a frappé lorsque j'ai examiné we do not loose anymore of the land. Over un peu les territoires que vous occupez, c'est half of it has been lost in the past 200 leur caractère - il y a un beau mot anglais years. de patchwork. Ce n'est pas un territoire dont on peut tracer facilement les limites parce Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le qu'il y en a une partie, oui, qui est assez député de Mont-Royal. importante, mais il y a d'autres parcelles ici et là, ce qui montre bien que vos droits M. Ciaccia: But, to do that, should you n'ont pas été reconnus. Ils ont été érodés et not involve the Government of Québec in votre territoire a été morcelé. Je pense your claim because, if you are making a qu'on peut difficilement nier que ce que vous claim against the Federal Government and if prétendez à ce sujet est strictement exact. the Québec Government is not aware of all Il y a une forme d'érosion qui remonte aux the details, I would imagine it would be origines de la Confédération canadienne, en difficult for the Québec Government to react ce sens que vos droits n'ont pas été reconnus and to take whatever steps may be necessary à ce moment-là. to protect the rights that you are asking for. Mais il y a aussi des érosions de votre territoire qui sont plus récentes, vous en B-9326 parlez dans votre mémoire. Par exemple, Le Président (M. Rancourt): Oui, M. le lorsque le golf d'Oka a été aménagé, vous député de Deux-Montagnes. prétendez que c'était sur vos territoires, et ça paraît extrêmement vraisemblable puisque M. de Bellefeuille: Since Mr. Pelletier c'est à côté de votre propre terrain de jeu has referred to these artifacts, I think communautaire. Ensuite, vous parlez des perhaps our two communities, if you want to expropriations de Mirabel qui, d'un coup, consider them as two communities, could vous ont fait perdre 111 milles carrés, une cooperate in getting these artifacts together. proportion extrêmement importante de votre I think there is a fascinating collection of territoire. Vous avez donc, là encore, ce them that have been found and perhaps we qu'on peut considérer comme un grief could consider some sort a the suitable place extrêmement sérieux. Vous faites aussi museum where they could be stored and allusion au gazoduc, encore que sur le shown to the public, with your cooperation, gazoduc, dans la mesure où le gazoduc est at a suitable place. un service d'utilité publique, on pourrait peut-être discuter à savoir s'il ne faut pas Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mr. Chief que tout le monde s'entende lorsqu'il y a un Pelletier. cas d'utilité publique. Mais vous parlez aussi du parc Paul- M. Pelletier: We will take the matter Sauvé à la page 14 du texte anglais de votre into consideration. mémoire et ça m'étonne un peu. Je voudrais vous demander s'il s'agit, à votre avis, de la Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le totalité du parc Paul-Sauvé qui est, comme ministre du Loisir, de la Chasse et de la chacun sait, d'administration québécoise, Pêche. puisque vous dites dans votre mémoire que vos territoires sont là où se trouve le village M. Chevrette: M. le Président, je et s'étendent vers l'ouest, alors que le parc voudrais dire que j'ai tenu l'engagement que Paul-Sauvé est nettement à l'est du village. j'avais pris lors des audiences publiques pour Je voudrais savoir dans quelle mesure le parc le parc Paul-Sauvé puisque j'avais pris Paul-Sauvé, dont j'oublie l'étendue, mais l'engagement d'acheminer ledit mémoire au enfin c'est plusieurs acres, plusieurs premier ministre du Québec et, le 10 mars centaines d'acres, fait partie des territoires 1982, vous receviez de M. Éric Gourdeau la qui vous ont été concédés sous le régime confirmation que le premier ministre avait français. été mis au courant de votre mémoire. Si vous avez remarqué, on n'a encore rendu Le Président (M. Rancourt): Chief publique aucune décision parce qu'il n'y a Gerry Pelletier. pas que des problèmes exclusivement territoriaux. Il y a également des problèmes M. Pelletier: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. de droit. Vous savez qu'on est présentement I just want to respond to his first comment en procès pour des droits exclusifs de chasse where he stated that we live in his dans un bassin au centre du parc Paul-Sauvé, territorial riding. I believe the gentleman de sorte que nous sommes à reconsidérer lives in our Indian territory. l'ensemble des mémoires avant de prendre position et nous vous aviserons conformément M. de Bellefeuille: À Saint-Eustache? à la réponse que vous a donnée M. Éric Your territory goes to Saint-Eustache? Gourdeau. Nous ferons appel à vous en temps et lieu. Cela s'en vient, mais sûrement pas M. Pelletier: Did you not hear the avant les fêtes. Peut-être qu'on aura la réponse que vous attendez du gouvernement Haudenosaunee when they made their fédéral. Cela nous permettra, à ce moment, presentation this morning? d'avoir une réponse peut-être encore plus éclairée. M. de Bellefeuille: In that sense. M. Pelletier: So, the other part, Mr. Le Président (M. Rancourt): Y a-t-il Chairman, when we talk about west of the d'autres intervenants? Non? Donc, nous village of Oka, that is where our present remercions la Bande amérindienne de people live right now but the claim itself Kanesatake (Oka) pour sa présentation du not only includes those pockets of lands that mémoire. Nous allons demander maintenant à were mentioned a while ago. It takes in part l'Association des Inuits du Labrador de bien of Paul-Sauvé Park area. There are also vouloir s'approcher. Do you have something some historical artifacts to prove to the else? Yes. Chief Pelletier. Minister of Recreation, Fish and Game that Indian people occupied that territory many M. Pelletier: Thank you. many years ago. There is a study being done now to get an actual date as to all those Le Président (M. Rancourt): Thank you artifacts. very much. Nous accueillons maintenant B-9327 l'Association des Inuits du Labrador. Will you notre mémoire. introduce yourselves, please? Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mme Association des Inuits du Labrador Williams.

Mme Williams (Frances): (S'exprime Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa dans sa langue). langue).

M. Filotas: En premier lieu, je voudrais M. Filotas: Je vous remercie, M. le présenter nos gens. Je vais commencer par Président, et tous ceux qui sont venus ici moi-même. Je suis Frances Williams. Je suis aujourd'hui pour nous écouter. la présidente de l'Association des Inuits du Labrador. Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Comme je vous l'ai dit tantôt, je suis Frances Williams et je suis la M. Filotas: À ma droite, M. Enoch présidente de l'Association des Inuits du Obed, qui est responsable des négociations et Labrador. des revendications territoriales des Inuits du (16 h 45) Labrador. Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Nous vous remercions de cette invitation à venir parler devant vous M. Filotas: À ma gauche, M. Veryan ici aujourd'hui. Haysom, un de nos avocats. Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa langue). langue). M. Filotas: C'est la première fois que M. Filotas: M. Marc Denhez, un autre les Inuits du Labrador ont l'occasion de venir de nos avocats. ici et de parler au gouvernement du Québec.

Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa langue). langue).

M. Filotas: Notre conseiller, un peu M. Filotas: Je voudrais ajouter que nous plus loin là-bas, M. Nathan Elberg. espérons que cette occasion de vous parler n'est qu'un début et qu'on pourra continuer Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa notre dialogue à l'avenir. langue). Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: J'espère que tous et chacun langue). de vous avez déjà eu l'occasion de lire notre mémoire. M. Filotas: Je voudrais profiter de cette occasion pour vous transmettre nos Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa salutations, à vous et aussi à nos confrères, langue). les Inuits et les Indiens du Nouveau-Québec.

M. Filotas: Nous avons aussi fait Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa parvenir au gouvernement du Québec dans le langue). passé un ouvrage intitulé, en anglais Our Footprints Are Everywhere qui est le résultat M. Filotas: M. le Président et MM. les des recherches quant à l'utilisation des terres membres de la commission, pour le bénéfice du Labrador et de toute la péninsule du de ceux qui ne sont pas familiers avec le Labrador par les Inuits de chez nous. Labrador et la situation des Inuits du Labrador, je voudrais vous transmettre Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa quelques informations afin que vous soyez langue). capables de mieux placer les choses dans leur contexte. M. Filotas: Si vous me le permettez, M. le Président, je vais commencer par un Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa petit discours d'ouverture qui sera suivi par langue). une intervention de M. Obed, puis, nous pourrons discuter des choses contenues dans M. Filotas: L'Association des Inuits du B-9328

Labrador représente environ 3000 Inuits. Le autres membres de la commission, nous terme anglais pour désigner ceux qu'on voudrions ici aujourd'hui vous souligner représente aussi est "Native settlers". Je ne pourquoi notre environnement et nos terres sais pas exactement comment traduire cela, doivent être protégés. parce que, si j'utilise le mot "colons", on sait que ce mot a acquis certaines Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa connotations. Ce serait des "pionniers"; on langue). dirait que ce sont des "scouts". Disons des "colons", mais dans le sens le plus noble du M. Filotas: Les choses que nous vous mot. L'Association des Inuits représente et disons ici aujourd'hui, vous les avez sûrement les Inuits et les résidents blancs, les entendues dans le passé à d'autres occasions, résidents non autochtones de longue souche, ou même des choses semblables à cette de longue date, qui résident dans les mêmes commission parlementaire ici avant nous, villages et qui partagent le mode de vie des mais nous voudrions vous répéter certaines Inuits de cette région-là. choses afin que le gouvernement fédéral et le gouvernement du Québec prennent Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa conscience de la raison pour laquelle les langue). choses qui sont la source, qui sont la fondation de nos droits, de notre culture et M. Filotas: Les gens que nous de notre société doivent être protégées. représentons résident dans les communautés suivantes: Nain, Hopedale, Makkovik, Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa Postville, Rigolet, Happy Valley et North langue). West River. M. Filotas: L'Association des Inuits du Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa Labrador voudrait vous présenter ici des langue). façons dont vous pourriez venir en aide aux Inuits de là-bas. M. Filotas: Les Inuits du Labrador, même s'ils sont peu nombreux, ont, depuis Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa fort longtemps, depuis des siècles, vécu dans langue). des conditions fort difficiles. M. Filotas: Nous ne voudrions pas Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa simplement que vous en restiez à l'audition langue). de nos paroles ou à la lecture de notre mémoire. Nous voudrions que vous M. Filotas: Mais, en dépit de ces entrepreniez une action afin de mettre en difficultés, nous avons réussi à survivre en application certaines recommandations que tant que peuple avec sa propre culture, nous voulons vous faire. parce que nous avons su respecter et tirer notre subsistance de la terre, de la mer, de Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa la banquise, des animaux et de nos langue). concitoyens. M. Filotas: Nous, les Inuits du Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa Labrador, nous nous trouvons dans une langue). situation un peu confuse quant à notre statut au sein de la Confédération canadienne. M. Filotas: Cette communion avec notre environnement et avec la terre de Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa laquelle nous tirons notre subsistance et langue). notre survivance nous est fondamentale et nous voudrions qu'elle soit maintenue comme M. Filotas: Pourtant nous, entre Inuits, telle et qu'elle ne soit pas détruite. nous savons qui nous sommes, nous nous reconnaissons entre nous, même si, pour le Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa reste des Canadiens, par le gouvernement langue). fédéral, on nous place dans la même catégorie, on nous appelle les Indiens. M. Filotas: Encore aujourd'hui, chaque jour, nous continuons de dépendre des Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa animaux qui vivent sur la terre ferme et des langue). animaux qui vivent dans la mer. M. Filotas: En 1949, au moment où la Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa province de Terre-Neuve s'est jointe au reste langue). du Canada, on a agi comme s'il n'existait aucun Inuit dans cette partie du pays. M. Filotas: M. le Président et les B-9329

Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa qu'un bon bout de chemin serait fait pour le langue). développement, pour assurer l'avenir de notre peuple. M. Filotas: Et de la même façon, on a été complètement oubliés au moment où se Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa négociait la Convention de la Baie James et langue). du Nord québécois. M. Filotas: Je vous affirme, en tant Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa qu'Inuk du Labrador, qu'il y a vraiment trop langue). de lois qui nous ont été appliquées par les gouvernements. M. Filotas: Même si nous avions des intérêts dans les territoires situés dans la Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa province de Québec, on ne nous a jamais langue). rencontrés, on ne nous a jamais entendus à ce moment-là. M. Filotas: C'est en essayant d'assurer l'avenir de nos enfants que nous disons ici Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa aujourd'hui que les Inuits du Labrador, langue). comme les autres peuples autochtones, doivent avoir l'occasion d'accéder au contrôle M. Filotas: Les Inuits du Labrador ont des institutions qui donnent les services aux subi les contrecoups, l'humiliation de l'action gens et particulièrement dans les domaines des trois niveaux de gouvernement. de la santé, de l'éducation et de la gestion de la faune. De la façon dont le système Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa d'éducation est organisé aujourd'hui, ajoute langue). Frances, il est très clair que, dans très peu de temps, nos enfants, nos jeunes vont avoir M. Filotas: La façon dont on nous a bientôt complètement perdu la maîtrise de traités, nous les Inuits du Labrador, leur langue maternelle. ressemble pas mal au traitement qu'on accorde aux animaux. Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Ces trois domaines que je viens de mentionner, c'est-à-dire les services M. Filotas: M. le Président et les de santé, l'éducation et la gestion de la autres membres de la commission, comme je faune sont pour nous d'une importance vitale. l'ai dit tantôt, je voudrais parler encore de Je vous pose la question à vous, gens du notre manque de définition, de notre manque gouvernement du Québec: Est-ce que vous de statut, de reconnaissance au sein de la seriez prêts à nous donner un coup de main Confédération par les gouvernements. pour réaliser nos buts?

Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa langue). langue).

M. Filotas: Ce n'est que très M. Filotas: Comme je l'ai dit tantôt, récemment que le gouvernement de la au moment où les gouvernements, les Inuits province de Terre-Neuve a reconnu qu'il y et les Indiens se sont assis pour négocier et avait, oui, des Inuits et des Indiens sur son pour signer la Convention de la Baie James territoire. et du Nord québécois, les Inuits du Labrador ont été complètement oubliés. Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Le gouvernement de cette province administre des fonds qui sont M. Filotas: Mais, pourtant, les Inuits du destinés aux Inuits et aux Indiens et qui Labrador ont des liens de parenté avec les s'appellent The Canada - Newfoundland Inuits du Québec et ils partagent les mêmes Native Peoples of Labrador Agreement. ressources. (17 heures) Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa langue). langue).

M. Filotas: Si nous pouvions, nous les M. Filotas: Les Inuits n'ont pas besoin Inuits, accéder au contrôle de ces sommes de lois écrites pour leur dire comment la qui nous sont destinées, nous considérerions terre doit être utilisée et comment les B-9330

animaux doivent être partagés, ces choses M. Filotas: Je vais continuer en langue étant assurées par les lois qui proviennent anglaise. des coutumes traditionnelles. Mme Williams: Mr. Chairman and Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa honourable members of the committee, I am langue). keenly aware that this commission has been set up to help discuss in detail the M. Filotas: Ce sont nos lois constitutional rights of the Aboriginal traditionnelles qui assurent les règles de Peoples of Canada, and I want to make a l'utilisation du territoire et du partage des few short comments on this important animaux qu'on y chasse. subject. I am also aware of what Mr. René Lévesque, the Prime Minister, said yesterday. Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa I think there is this give and take which we langue). recognize. But, for more clarification, I would just like to point out a few more M. Filotas: C'est pour cette raison que things that are dealing specifically with nous considérons qu'au moment où la Labrador. Convention de la Baie James se négociait For the Labrador Inuits, the settlement nous, les Inuits du Labrador, aurions dû faire of our claims and constitutional development partie de ces négociations. are closely tied together. One of the main grievances of the Labrador Inuits is the Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa abrogation of our rights in Québec under the langue). James Bay and Northern Québec Native Claims Settlement Act. M. Filotas: Nous nous demandons si la There can be no more clear illustration raison de cet oubli n'est pas due à of the need to protect the Aboriginals and l'existence de cette frontière qui a été treaty rights of Aboriginal Peoples of Canada tracée sur les cartes par des gens autres que against the powers of the government than nous. the unilateral, unnegotiated legislative abrogation of Labrador Inuit rights in Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa Québec. langue). We have claims in Québec that we want to have settled. We are here to call M. Filotas: Cette frontière que vous upon the Government of Québec to honour trouvez sur les cartes, nous ne la prenons its commitment to negotiate the settlement absolument pas en considération quand nous of those claims. But, more important, we are allons à la chasse. Nous traversons d'un côté also here to call on the province of Québec à l'autre comme le font, d'ailleurs, nos to make sure that the kind of betrayal of frères, les Inuits du Québec, quand ils vont à Aboriginal Peoples that took place as a la poursuite du caribou. result of the James Bay and Northern Native Claims Settlement Act never happens again. Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa History demands that any negotiated langue). agreement involving the province of Québec and the Labrador Inuits must be M. Filotas: Nous espérons que le constitutionally protected as a treaty within gouvernement du Québec pourra agir afin que the meaning of section 35.1 of the nous puissions continuer nos activités dans ce Constitution Act, 1982. For this reason domaine sans aucune crainte. alone, the Labrador Inuit Association believes it is vital that Québec become active in the Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa national process of elaborating a constitution. langue). Aboriginal and treaty rights of the Aboriginal Peoples. M. Filotas: M. le Président et les But the Labrador Inuit Association has autres membres de la commission, nous its difficulties and differences with the allons présenter ici aujourd'hui certaines Government of Newfoundland on issues propositions en vertu desquelles le ranging from wildlife management to gouvernement du Québec pourrait venir en education. There is no need, nor are these aide aux Inuits du Labrador. Vous pouvez hearings appropriate place to go into these leur venir en aide en reconnaissant, difficulties. It should be pointed out, premièrement, qu'ils sont des Inuits, qu'ils however, that many of them are related to partagent les mêmes coutumes, les mêmes questions of Aboriginal self-government, and traditions et les mêmes droits que les autres funding and control of institutions. Active Inuits. participation of Québec in the constitutional process would help in the resolution of these Mme Williams: (S'exprime dans sa questions and would thereby help to remedy langue). many of the problems we face at home, B-9331 including those with the Government of The first task of the Labrador Inuit Newfoundland. We recognize the active Association was to clarify that the Federal participation and positive approach of the Government's comprehensive land claims Government of Newfoundland and we policy applied to land in Labrador. The LIA encourage you to follow suit. Mr. Chairman, was incorporated in 1975 and received may I have a drink of water? funding to research its land claims in (17 h 15) December of that year. Our statement of So far, Québec has taken a passive role claim was submitted to the Federal in this historic process. If that passivity Government in 1977. continues, it will generate further mistrust Our land use and occupancy study was and suspicion on our part. In contrast, submitted in 1978. Our claim was accepted affirmative action by the Government of for negotiation as a comprehensive claim in Québec to recognize and advance the that year. In 1980, the Newfoundland constitutional rights of the Aboriginal Government announced its willingness to Peoples of Canada would not only speed up enter into tripartite negotiation for the the process of constitutional amendments, settlement of the Labrador Inuit claim. but also would be a signal to the Aboriginal In 1981, the Federal Government is Peoples that the mistakes of Canada's (short list) approach came into effect, that colonial past can be set right in the future. is the Federal Government will negotiate I therefore join with the leaders of the only six comprehensive claims at any one Aboriginal Peoples of the Québec Task Force time. Unless one of the six groups on the in calling upon the Premier to enter into an short list completes an agreement, no other accord with all the representatives of the claim will be negotiated. This approach has Aboriginal Peoples who have appeared before successfully blocked any further development this commission. The accord should be the towards negotiation of our claim. same as that entered into by our national Your society calls me an Eskimo. I leaders and the other First Ministers' on prefer to call myself an Inuk, a person. I March 7 of this year. was born at Hebron. So my people refer to Such a step, by committing Québec to me as a Hebronimiut, a person belonging to honour land claims settlements as the land in the Hebron area. The Hebron constitutional treaties, and by committing region is one of the biggest and best grazing Québec to consult with us before affecting and calving grounds for part of the huge our rights would assure all Aboriginal Peoples caribou herd which still migrates between that the province treats their rights as rights Labrador and Québec every since time is of the highest priority. If this Premier were remembered by the Inuits and the Innu, the to enter into such an accord with the Inuits Indian. For centuries before colonial rule, the of Labrador, amongst others, it would Inuits were like the caribou. We knew no constitute a major recognition of the artificial boundaries under the land that kept Labrador Inuits by the Government of us alive and sheltered. My ancestors and my Québec and would symbolize a commitment relatives living today have had to cross from to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada, Labrador to Québec and from Québec to generally, and not just to the Aboriginal Labrador during times of severe hardship. Peoples of Québec. They travelled on the land and on the sea in I would now, again, like to thank you search of life-sustaining food and economic for the opportunity to express our feelings. benefits from the renewable resource base. The brief itself deals with the technical In fact, the land and the resource base information. I have tried to let you know our meant so much to the Inuits that we devised feelings from our hearts, and the reality of our own customary rules for occupancy and the situation. Mr. Chairman and honourable wise use of the land and its resource base. members of the committee, thank you again. When I was a small boy, I shot my first polar bear. Nowadays, our people can Le Président (M. Rancourt): Thank you, be put in jail and their property taken. Our Mme Williams. people cannot even kill a polar bear in self- Something else? Mr. Obed. defence. It is quite different for our Inuit brothers from Northern Québec. They can M. Obed (Enoch): Mr. Prime Minister, cross the Labrador boundaries and kill their Mr. Chairman and honourable members of quota of polar bear without fear of the committee, we would like to thank you prosecution. Somewhere and sometime in for the privilege to appear before this Canada's history, the powerful people who standing committee. My name is Enoch Obed. make up the federal and provincial laws I work for the Land Claims Division of the forgot about the Labrador Inuits and their Labrador Inuit Association. The Labrador Aboriginal rights. Today, the Labrador Inuits Inuit Association was formed in October are becoming more fearful to use the land 1973, in response to the Federal that sustains them because of certain legislation that prevents them from Government's policy announcement in August exercising their Aboriginal rights to of that year. B-9332 determine where they will hunt, trap, fish, conscience to deprive a people of their gather and follow wildlife. Another great rights without their consent. threat that the Labrador Inuits foresee is To the Labrador Inuits, it is urgent that impending shortsighted, large-scale that uncertainty surrounding our rights to our developments for profit can easily put them land and resources be resolved. The at a big disadvantage forever if they are realization of our culture and economy, the forsaken and not included in the wise protection of our language, the practice of development of our land and resource base. our customs and traditions, the promotion of In October 1980, Premier Brian individual and community developments are Peckford of Newfoundland announced his for us matters of utmost urgency. All of willingness to enter into tripartite these aspects of our daily life are subject to negotiations and indicated that bilateral the insidious attacks of gradual governmental discussions on preliminary issues between the and industrial incursions into our land and Newfoundland and the Federal Government community and their expropriation of our were essential. Those governmental resource rights. discussions opened in May 1981 but nothing (17 h 30) has been achieved. We condemn the annulment of just and The Labrador Inuit Association has fair principles by arbitrary, unjust and repeatedly asked the Office of Native Claims unannounced strategy. We call upon federal when it will be ready to open negotiations. officials who have been charged with the In February 1983, despairing over the lack of constitutional responsibility and trust response from that bureaucracy, we formally obligations of the highest political order to advised the Minister of Indian Affairs that fulfill their responsibility towards Labrador we are willing and ready to enter into Inuits. We also feel that the James Bay tripartite negotiations for the settlement of Agreement imposes a clear and moral our claims and asked him to set a date for obligation on Québec to settle the claims of opening of our talks. Eight months have now the Inuits of Northern Labrador. passed without even the courtesy of an The Labrador Inuit Association offers acknowledgment from the Minister. these recommendations to this honourable Under the James Bay Agreement, the committee. First, that this commission Crees and Inuits of Northern Québec recommend to the Government of Québec surrendered all their Aboriginal rights to the that the Government move immediately to lands which they claimed in Northern recognize and clarify the legal rights of Québec. The surrender of Aboriginal rights Labrador Inuits to enter their traditional was made in return of various rights and lands within the province of Québec, without benefits defined in the Agreement between restriction, for purposes of hunting, fishing the Crees, the Inuits, the Federal and trapping. These rights should be Government, the Government of Québec and enshrined in a treaty or a specific clause of various Québec governmental agencies. The the Canadian Constitution. In any such Labrador Inuits were not party to this constitutionally protected agreement or Agreement. The Agreement was made into provision, the province of Québec should law by enactment of the Canadian facilitate the crossing of the Labrador Parliament and the Québec National boundary by the Aboriginal Peoples of Assembly. The Labrador Inuit claims were Labrador whose movements are connected to known to the province of Québec before the their traditional culture and economy. This finalization of the Agreement and were well could be done by the recognition of a known both to the province of Québec and passage, or a right-of-way for the Aboriginal the Federal Government before the James Peoples of Labrador. The Québec Government Bay Agreement was enacted into law. The should also work towards a clarification of Labrador Inuit Association registered strong the legal status and the legal rights of the protests before the parliamentary committee Aboriginal Peoples crossing the border in on Indian Affairs during the passage of Bill connection with their traditional culture and C-9. economy. The objective of this clarification would be to eliminate the multiple licencing We feel like Adam and Eve; we see and permitting systems that must, in theory ourselves naked with not even fig-leaves to at least, be followed by the Labrador Inuit cover us. hunters. The blow delivered against the Labrador Inuits denied us our historical, legal, cultural Second, that this commission and economic roots without our ever having recommend to the Government of Québec given our consent, received any compensation that the rights of the Labrador Inuits to or been allowed any resource in accordance hunt, trap and fish in their traditional lands with due process of law. This is outrageous within the province of Québec take the form and immoral; it is also possibly illegal to of a licence coupled with a grant so as to seek to abrogate the Aboriginal rights of ensure that the Inuit have a definite Aboriginal People without negotiation and proprietary interest in the animals of their compensation. It is simply contrary to traditional lands and to ensure that the B-9333 licensor could not revoke the licence to sujet qui vous préoccupe, je pense, de très which the grant is incidental. près vous aussi, c'est-à-dire la question des Third, that this commission recommend caribous, s'attend à avoir plus d'informations to the Government of Québec that it move qui proviendraient de votre communauté de immediately to negotiate with the Labrador façon que vous puissiez, en fait, participer à Inuits for their participation and inclusion of la mise au point de ce que pourrait être une their interests in regimes for the sorte de solution au problème de la chasse management of wildlife resources in which au caribou. Je pense que c'est un peu cela the Labrador Inuit have vital interests. que vous évoquez, M. Chevrette? Fourth, that this commission Pour le reste, it is a bit delicate, from recommend that the Government of Québec what I gather. There is just one correction I seek to reach agreement with all interested would like to make in one of the statements parties concerning a regime to ensure of your presentation. You talked somewhat comprehensive management of the caribou of the sort of passive attitude of the Québec herd according to ecological, cultural and Government, as far as the federal-provincial economic principles, free from geographic exercise which went on this year is and jurisdictional protectionism. concerned. We were very far from passive, Fifth, that this commission advise the but, on account of some basic requirements Government of Québec that the inclusion of of our National Assembly concerning the so- the rights, interests and participation of the called "new Constitution", we have decided, Aboriginal Peoples of Labrador in until certain conditions are met, not to environmental impact assessment and land participate, in the sense of not endorsing by use planning regimes is essential in order to signing - we have seen signatures, in recent protect and advance their interests as semi- Canadian history, that were not honoured nomadic hunters and gatherers who have used and, until some correction is made to the the land since time immemorial. This must results of such actions in the rest of be negotiated between Québec and the Canada, we will not participate through a Labrador Inuits, would be an integral part of signatory in things that are concocted at our comprehensive land claims negotiation that level. But, on the other hand, we were and would, where appropriate, include very active in the preparation and in our negotiations with the signatories to the attendance at those meetings in Ottawa, and Labrador Inuit Association. Thank you. included, as you know, our own Inuit and Indian fellow citizens as codelegates in the Québec delegation, which, I think, gave them Le Président (M. Rancourt): Thank you, striking power which they would not have Mr. Enoch Obed. Is there someone else who had otherwise. Additional to that, we also would like to have the right to speak? Je emphasized some concrete accomplishments donne la parole au premier ministre. that have been made in Québec - very much less than what we hope to accomplish in the M. Lévesque (Taillon): Je voudrais coming times - which, I think, mean that, commencer par remercier nos visiteurs du with a lots of things yet to do, at least we Labrador, qui ont trouvé le moyen de can say that Québec leads the way in traverser cette frontière qu'ils ne Canada as far as recognition of basic rights reconnaissent pas pour venir présenter leur of the Native Peoples is concerned. I think cause à l'Assemblée nationale du Québec. that was rather active help to our Inuit and Est-ce que je peux ajouter tout de suite que Indian friends. je trouve cela extrêmement sympathique parce que, pour des raisons peut-être moins As far as the specific things that you anciennes que nos amis inuits, nous non plus, mentioned in your presentation are du Québec, il y a certaines frontières que concerned, there is one thing which we can nous ne reconnaissons pas? do, which I can commit ourselves to Ceci étant dit, c'est la première fois immediately. It is that since we know, on que nous avons cette occasion de connaître account of where you live, how close you le point de vue, l'ensemble des are - in fact, you are part of the same revendications des Inuits du Labrador. Je dois family - to our own Inuit population, how dire tout de suite que nous avons été much exchange there is bound to be, there is vivement intéressés par ce mémoire parce no reason at all why we should not envisage que, d'abord, pour nous, il y avait beaucoup - you will have to excuse me if I do not go de choses nouvelles que nous ne connaissions into chapter and verse; we are not ready for pas, qu'il est remarquablement bien préparé, that yet, but we are going to look at it très clair et extrêmement bien documenté. actively - the idea of a kind of basic C'est vraiment un apport très précieux que negotiation that you have mentioned; there is vous ajoutez à l'éclairage de la commission. no reason why not. I cannot commit myself for the moment that we will go into it very Ainsi, mon collègue, le ministre du quickly, like the day after tomorrow, but I Loisir, de la Chasse et de la Pêche, qui think very seriously, on account of this close travaille actuellement, au point de vue kinship - in fact, this family tie that you technique, mais c'est très important, sur un B-9334 have with the Northern Québec Inuit - there was enacted, but that legislation was really is no reason at all why, within the limits a formality. Once the Agreement was signed that you know about public administration, in 1975, it was just about at the time that that we do not open up to the idea of the you were being incorporated to form an kind of negotiation you are proposing. We association. The Agreement was already will be looking at it very actively. signed or in the process of being finalized. As far as one of your preoccupations is In the representations that you made in 1977 concerned - which is also very basic - on to the Federal Government, you advised him account of your relatively smaller numbers that you had notified the Government of and the dynamics of the whole situation, I Québec, the year before, which was in 1976. know that you are very worried - I think So, there were certain constraints on both justifiably so - about the maintenance of the Native people at the time we had to your language which, after all, is the vehicle negotiate and there were constraints on the of you culture. As you know, we are working Government. on that with the Québec Inuits and we are However, I noticed that the Premier going to explore the possibility - and that is today has said that he is making a sort of a a commitment - immediately of including commitment in terms of negotiating with you, if you feel like it, in that language you. The Agreement did not totally ignore effort - not just survival, but language, let the Inuits of Labrador or other groups who us say maintenance - which is un the way in would have claims to the James Bay Québec so that you can profit by it and also territory. I would like to refer you to bring in your input. That is a very basic section 214 of the Agreement which cultural question, it is a question of your specifically states: "Le Québec s'engage à identity and there is no reason why you négocier avec les autres Indiens ou Inuits non should not be the part of that effort and admissibles aux indemnités et avantages de included in it. So, on the one hand, that can la présente convention toute revendication be a commitment, if you are interested, as qu'ils peuvent avoir relativement au far as the language question is concerned. territoire." The other commitment, which has to be We were aware that there were rights a bit conditional for the moment - but we of other Native people to the territory and are going to look at it very actively - is that is why we provided for it in the this idea, which you especially mentioned at Agreement. So, I think that perhaps the 214, that we initiate a kind of negotiation Premier today could be even more firm in along the general lines that you propose. his commitment because he is really obligated, in the terms of the Agreement, to Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le negotiate with you. So, in that sense, the député de Mont-Royal. Agreement, while extinguishing rights - it is true - and they were obliged to do it... I do M. Ciaccia: Merci, M. le Président. Je not want to go into the legality, but the voudrais remercier l'Association des Inuits du Federal Acts of 1898 and 1912 which turned Labrador pour son mémoire et pour souligner these territories over to Québec and which les problèmes qui existent dans sa imposed as a condition certain conditions to communauté et aussi qui existent à la suite extinguish rights... Nevertheless, I think that de certaines ententes qui ont été prises par there was an effort made both by the Inuits le gouvernement du Québec. of Northern Québec. I am not suggesting (17 h 45) that the effort was only made, by the Je voudrais seulement rappeler à Government representatives at the time. It l'Association des Inuits du Labrador et à was made by the Inuits of Northern Québec cette commission les circonstances dans to assure as much as possible the obligation lesquelles l'entente de la Baie-James a été on the part of the Government to negotiate with you, recognizing obviously that there signée. C'est une entente qui avait été were outstanding rights. If I could just refer consentie par le Parti québécois à ce to the Naskapis, for instance, they were moment-là, qui était représenté par Jacques- caught in the same problem. There was a Yvan Morin, le leader de l'Opposition, et le time delay with them. They were not ready gouvernement libéral du Québec. Je crois to finalize negotiations and the Crees wanted qu'une des raisons pour lesquelles les Inuits the negotiations finalized. du Labrador n'étaient pas inclus, c'est le fait que vous n'étiez peut-être pas prêts à When you mentioned that you view the négocier à ce moment-là. James Bay Agreement as a betrayal, we had You have mentioned that you were the Crees who came here yesterday and told incorporated in 1975 as an association and I us that it was the charter of their rights. noticed, in the minutes of the Indian Affairs So, there seems to be a bit of different and Northern Development Committee points of view from different groups, meeting, you made representations in 1977 depending on the effect, I suppose, of the when the legislation to give effect to the Agreement and the consequences; but there James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement is a clear-cut obligation on the part of the B-9335

Government to negotiate with you and with views. The prospective adopted by the any other Inuits who would have rights in provinces is important. Québec, in the territory. The Premier could even give negociating with the Labrador Inuit you a more firm undertaking to negociate Association, is dealing primarily with the your rights. Labrador Inuits. Their objective, in entering The other mention of the Premier in this negotiation with us, would be to about the language rights, I do not know, but honour the commitments and obligations perhaps he could clarify a little bit more. towards one of the Aboriginal Peoples of He mentionned that he would be prepared to Canada. By participating in the negotiations include, at the request of the Northern for the purpose of dealing honourably with Inuits, who mentionned some of the problems aboriginal rights, your Government is not that they had with the language provision compromising its stand in relation to the which affect the territory, perhaps we could Canadian Confederation. It is a rather ask the Premier to be a little more specific genuine commitment to the process of as to how they could include the Inuits of unravelling the tangled net of Canada's Labrador in the legislation which is presently colonial legacy which is, in the end, at the before the National Assembly. heart of Quebec's attempt to define its So, I am not trying to make excuses position in relation to the Canadian for the extinction of rights, I fully Federation. sympathize with the situation in which you Secondly, the participation in find yourselves. All I am trying to say is negotiations respecting LIA claims can be that the Agreement does provide for the done without reference to the specific Government of Québec to negociate with territorial jurisdiction of the provinces. The you, just as it provided for the Government goal of joint management can be achieved of Québec to negociate with the Naskapees. without making prejudicial admissions in As a matter of fact, the Naskapees did respect to territory. The recognition of Inuit negociate and an agreement was finalized territorial rights to us constitutes acceptance between Québec, the Naskapees of of a fundamental aboriginal and human right, Schefferville and the other groups who form not a surrendering of territorial jurisdiction. part of the agreement. Lastly, wise management of renewable I just want to ask you a question. Have and non renewable resources and of the you spoken... What is the position... Have environment is in the best interest of our you discuss this with the Inuits of Northern people, who depend upon and use the Québec and how would you envisage the resources. negotiation of the rights and the problems For Québec, to seek a comprehensive that you bring out in your brief? How would management regime that accounts for the you see this process of negotiation? Because, rights and interests of other users of the as you know, the parties to this agreement resources in question is to act in support of now are the Crees, the Inuits, the Québec rights and interests and does not Naskapees, the Federal Government and the constitute an abdication of responsibility or a Government of Québec. So, how would you surrender of jurisdiction. So we see no real see the process of a negotiation for the reason why you cannot recommend to your rights that you are claiming in today's brief? Government to provide a process, a procedure to open negotiations of our rights Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Enoch in Québec. Obed. Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le M. Obed (Enoch): First of all, it has premier ministre. been eight years since the signing the James Bay Agreement. Refer to provision 214. It M. Lévesque (Taillon): In fact, I could has been a very long time since we have not agree more fully with you. When the been able to come here to present our view. member from Mont-Royal reminded us of I think also that, in 1927, your legal lawyers, that provision in the agreement, quite clearly during Privy Council Hearings, regarding the it was there and it is our duty to clarify Québec extinction that knew about the things. But you have to admit that this is existence of the land use of the Labrador the first time that we see you, the first Inuit in Northern Québec. I also believe that, time that we have some sort of concrete during your negotiations, although the news from you and that is why I made a Federal Government abrogated the rights of sort of commitment awhile ago that we will, the Labrador Inuits of Northern Québec, it as quickly as possible, very seriously and was at the insistence of the Québec very actively, look at how we can fulfill Government that they did this. that commitment, which was there. But, on Now, Mr. Lévesque pointed out that the other hand, you have to admit that when you have a major problem dealing with the you get it for the first time, it requires Federal Government or the Newfoundland some study before you can initiate anything Government because of your very strong which can be fruitful. So, there is no B-9336 hesitation, as far as saying: Yes, we will try M. Ciaccia: I am please to hear that, and organize something which could bring Mr. Prime Minister. you in a negotiating position with us on the basis of the general lines anyway of what Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le you were suggesting. ministre délégué aux Relations avec les The member from Mont-Royal will want citoyens. a little more clarification about the language question. One of the basic things which is M. Lazure: M. le Président, merci. Just going on now - and it is always a long a few words to also react to a third point drawn-out effort, but it is one of the most that you brought up where you specifically basic efforts that you can make for any asked for assistance from Québec, the third language as a first step - is the fabrication, point being health services. You mentioned if I can use the word, of an Inuit dictionary, education, health and "gestion de la faune". I which is going on right now and to which think there too, especially with the recent the Labrador Inuits - because that will be an building of the Hospital Kuujjuaq, a very on-going process, I do not know if there is a modern hospital now, all I can say is that in grammar afterwards or whatever - but at the same way that the Prime Minister has least a dictionary which is, I think, the basic expressed openness to help you with the tool for any language, is being put together maintenance of the language, there could be right now. There is no reason why there discussions in terms of what are the most should not be, based on that first effort, pressing needs. What did you have in mind - some cooperation initiated between the Inuit perhaps you can answer right now or later groups on both sides of the so called on, when we do have further meetings - boundary. when you talked about certain assistance from Québec in terms of health? Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le Finally, I would also like to thank you député de Mont-Royal. on behalf of all the members of the commission for this beautiful and interesting M. Ciaccia: The problem that Northern book. Thank you. Québec Inuits had brought to the attention of this committee was the question of the Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Enoch mobility. As these people have pointed out, Obed. there is a constant mobility between the people of Labrador, Québec, even the M. Obed: I will answer your question. I Northwest Territories and, the way Bill 101 think what we are saying first and fore-most is now designed, they are affected by the is that we are one of the Aboriginal Peoples provisions of Bill 101 in terms of the of Canada. The focus is on our status as schooling of their children because it Aboriginal Peoples. Secondly a focus on our prevents that mobility, it affects - let put it status as Inuit is subject primarily to this way - the mobility. The children cannot Canadian legislative jurisdiction in the sense go to the schools in which they would that they have a trust responsibility towards normally go to: it would be the English us. schools. It seems that there is so few Now, this responsibility and obligation numbers involved; and in terms of the on the government's part have never been requirements of these communities I think really exercised and we would like to see that what the Inuits of Northern Québec had action to be treated as one of their asked for was an amendment of that Aboriginal Peoples of Canada. I think, since particular clause insofar that it affects Québec has in its own legislation recognized them, because they pointed out that they do the Aboriginal Peoples of Québec, you must not have reciprocity with the Northwest go along in supporting us to gain the kind of Territories and, as you know, the Northwest recognition that we have been trying to seek Territories in 1912, I think, removed the since the beginning of this forum. teaching of the French language, unfortunately. But they do have a problem Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mme la today and it was in that area that they députée de Jacques-Cartier. required some assistance. (18 heures) Mme Dougherty: I would like to come Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le back to education. Would you clarify for us premier ministre. what is the set up of education? Who is responsible? Is the Government of M. Lévesque (Taillon): ...to the re- Newfoundland responsible? To what extent evaluation of bill 101, Mr. Gourdeau who is your programs or monies are provided? quick on the draw, quicker than you, has just been telling me that there will be an Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mme amendment brought in during the bill 101 Williams. debate. B-9337

Mme Williams: When I specifically certainly compliments the Inuits, the Crees mentioned education - I am glad you are and the Naskapees when they negotiated asking that - our system of education is the their agreement. They did a very good job same provincial curriculum. The monies that on your own behalf. are... In regard to health, education, social services, community development, what we Mme Dougherty: Are you talking about are seeking in this recognition of our Newfoundland? aboriginal title and aboriginal rights, the right to determine for ourselves those Mme Williams: Yes. The monies that programs offered by the Federal Government. are earmarked for education come through We have not been listened to by any former the Canada-Newfoundland Native peoples of Government to begin exercising our own Labrador Agreement. We have signed a five- determination. So that is the basis of our year agreement which is now in the third agreement here. We have to clarify what our year and, under this particular Agreement, position is in areas that we use in Northern the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Québec, in our communities with three levels Northern Development get money off the top of Government, Québec, Newfoundland and as well as the Department of Education and the Federal Government. the Department of Fisheries. And when we Now, in the case of negotiating our say we want education that will enable us to land claims, our land interest in Québec, I at least retain our language, we would like see no other choice but to have the Federal to see an agreement whereby we can Government involved because of their determine what kind of education system our contract responsibility and also we realize it children receive. is only the Government that can give Up to this point, we have not been recognition and affirmation and protect the able to get that kind of control and, when I rights under the Constitution. So once you talk about survival, I think the kind of have set a deadline to begin to react into education our children receive is a part of what we have said in our brief, then we will our survival as Inuit. be ready to start negotiation. We are ready. I do not know if I have answered your question in full, but, basically, that is the Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le background on our education system. premier ministre.

Mme Dougherty: Thank you. In other M. Lévesque (Taillon): The only answer words, you do not have the same autonomous I can make is that it is obvious that the school board rights such as the Kativik Federal Government has to be involved School Board for the Québec Inuit. Would because it has the traditional responsibility this kind of set up be what you would want over the whole thing and I do not think it potentially, what they might have, when it is has anything to do with our other basic developed, when they have an opportunity to requirements as Québec Government facing develop an indigenous curriculum? the constitutional process. So, there is no Just before you answer, what I am road blocked there. getting to is it seems the Prime Minister is suggesting perhaps a sharing of materials Le Président (M. Rancourt): Une related to your first language and so on. question supplémentaire? Mme la députée de What we heard last night in relation to the Jacques-Cartier. Kativik school program which is only being developed, I think that there is an effort on Mme Dougherty: On another subject, I the way to develop indigenous materials, think that when you talk about, in your manuals, curriculum and so on, and I know chapter - which you did not speak, but in they are working this at some of the your brief - when you talk about none- universities, I know that people at McGill renewable resource development, I think you University were involved in this, and it have made another practical suggestion that seems that, if Québec is willing to look at could be dealt with right here. That is that that, they might be able to speed that there are projects, and you bring up the Iron process of helping you also to develop your Ore Company, some of the mineral indigenous curriculum, because, if it is being exploration projects that are causing the done on the Québec side, why not on the building of runways for airplanes and so on, other side of the border if it is essentially a that have environmental impact. You common people, as you have explained to us? mentioned that, according to the James Bay Does that make some sense to you? and Northern Québec Agreement, the Environmental Quality Commission is Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mme encouraged to consult people who are Williams. M. Obed. involved, who would be concerned about the environmental impact of some of these M. Obed: On this, can I answer? That projects and, because you are on the B-9338

Labrador side, you are not included in this he is our legal advisor and, maybe, he would consideration. You are suggesting, which make it more understandable. makes a lot of sense, that you would like, and you ask the question: "Does the mandate M. Haysom (Veryan): Thank you, Mr. of the - page 6-4 - Environmental Quality Chairman. I think that there is very little Commission enable it to consider that I could add to what Mr. Obed has said. environmental or social impacts occurring I believe that the analogy that you use or outside the boundaries of Québec, when those the correct terminology that you use in the impacts are the result or potential result of Civil Code would be a usufruct. That is the actions within the borders of Québec? In kind of right that is being looked for in this. other words, can the Environmental Quality The phraseology there uses very much the Commission pay attention to our interests?" common law phraseology, but I believe that I think that this is a question I would the analogous provision in the Civil Code like to put to the Prime Minister. What is would be a usufruct. I think that answers being suggested in the brief... "On a suggéré this question. que la "Environmental Quality Commission pay attention to the interests of the Inuits Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le of Labrador. When there are decisions being ministre. taken in Québec that affect the environment, whether it is the animals or the land, in M. Chevrette: Je voudrais vous féliciter some way, and they give examples of the de l'intérêt que vous portez à la building of airstrips for the mineral conservation de la faune. Il est bien évident exploration and so on... At the moment, que, même si nous avons mis sur pied un unlike the Québec Inuits, they do not have comité technique pour étudier toute la access to the Environmental Quality question du caribou en particulier, on sait Commission. Is that again something that fort bien qu'on se doit, en vertu de la could be looked at? It makes a lot of sense. Convention de la Baie James, de consulter également le comité mixte et qu'on ne peut M. Lévesque (Taillon): It does make pas avoir un plan de gestion global au niveau sense and there is no reason why there de la faune sans avoir une entente au niveau should be any basic obstacle to that, because de tous les intéressés. Ceci veut dire le if it does have potential fall out which gouvernement de Terre-Neuve, les Inuits du affects them... Obviously, if it affects Labrador; cela veut dire aussi, bien sûr, nos Québec Inuits, it will affect Labrador Inuits, Inuits conventionnés et le gouvernement du or vice versa. There is no reason at all why Québec, de sorte que je prendrai en they should not come in. considération tout ce que vous nous avez donné. Si jamais, entre-temps, vous avez des Mme Dougherty: There is your answer. indications, des informations, des suggestions à nous faire relativement à la gestion même Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le du troupeau du caribou qui se promène du ministre du Loisir, de la Chasse et de la nord au sud, elles seront les bienvenues et Pêche. elles seront prises en considération. Et cela nous fera plaisir, au moment opportun, de vous donner un peu les hypothèses M. Chevrette: Je serai très bref, M. le d'orientation que nous avons à ce sujet. Président. J'aurai peut-être une seule question et un commentaire. Ma question a trait aux droits de chasse et de pêche. Vous Le Président (M. Rancourt): II n'y a parlez de la forme d'un permis qui serait aucune autre intervention? accompagné de l'octroi d'un droit sur les animaux. Que veut dire l'expression "droit M. Ciaccia: I would just like to thank sur les animaux"? Si jamais on devait the Labrador Inuit Association for his brief mener des discussions, j'aimerais savoir and also for this very beautiful volume that quelle est votre perception de ce droit sur you gave to the members of the committee, les animaux. Je crois que vous utilisez Our Footprints Are Everywhere, above the l'expression "grant" dans votre mémoire, dans Inuit lands, uses and occupancy in Labrador. la version anglaise. Je ne comprends pas la And I trust and hope that the Government of signification exacte de ce droit sur les Québec will initiate with you, as soon as animaux. possible, a negotiation for your rights in the Northern Inuit areas, in Northern Québec, in Le Président (M. Rancourt): Sir. accordance with the provisions that were spelled out in the James Bay Agreement. M. Obed: It would be the use of usufruct compared to in your Québec Civil Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mme Code. Also, it would mean international right Williams, something else? of access, right of way as an international law. If Mr. Haysom can answer you further, Mme Williams: I would just like to B-9339 point out that I would like to personally put M. Filotas: Je voudrais commencer par my signature, for the Premier, on Our remercier le gouvernement qui nous donne Footprints Are Everywhere. l'occasion de nous faire entendre à cette commission parlementaire. Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Lévesque. M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue).

M. Lévesque (Paillon): As a French M. Filotas: Je voudrais continuer en dictum goes, "Les grands esprits se présentant les gens de notre groupe qui rencontrent", I have just inscribed a sort of m'ont accompagné. À ma droite, M. Eliyassi a small message on this beautiful book about Sallualuk qui, depuis les débuts de toute the whole of the North, where I think you cette affaire concernant la Convention de la will recognize your own part, which has just Baie James, a été, dès les premières heures, come out a few days ago. So, it is an l'une des principales forces de notre exchange. mouvement. C'est pour cela que, même s'il n'occupe présentement aucun poste officiel, Le Président (M. Rancourt): Nous allons nous lui avons demandé de nous accompagner suspendre nos travaux jusqu'à 20 heures. à la présente commission.

(Suspension de la séance à 18 h 18) M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue).

M. Filotas: À côté de lui, M. Tamusi (Reprise de la séance à 20 h 10) Kumak, bien connu par certains d'entre vous. M. Kumak travaille depuis de longues années Le Président (M. Rancourt): À l'ordre, dans divers projets pour la préservation de la s'il vous plaît! langue et de la culture inuites. Nous reprenons les audiences de la commission élue permanente de la présidence M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). du conseil et de la constitution pour entendre les mémoires et les représentations M. Filotas: La dernière personne à des autochtones et des divers groupes ou droite, c'est Johnny Uitangale, vice-président organismes autochtones sur les droits et les de l'ITN, qui lui aussi a été mêlé de très besoins fondamentaux des Amérindiens et des près à toute cette histoire dès les premières Inuits. heures. C'est un peu lui qui agit comme Ce soir, nous entendrons deux groupes. chien de garde. C'est lui qui surveille et qui En premier lieu, les Inuits Tungavingat passe à travers toutes les lois. Dieu seul sait Nunamini, et, en second lieu, l'Administration qu'il y en a eu beaucoup qui lui sont régionale Kativik. tombées sur la tête ces dernières années. Prend place à la table, actuellement, le C'est Johnny qui est chargé de nous mettre groupe des Inuits Tungavingat Nunamini. au courant de ces lois.

M. Chevrette: Oui, c'est pas pire. M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Répétez-le vite. On va apprendre avec lui. M. Filotas: Immédiatement à ma Une voix: Bientôt, ce sera sa deuxième gauche, il y a M. Davidi Mark Ivujivile, qui langue. est un des conseillers, membre du conseil de l'ITN. Il a été mêlé lui aussi de très près et Le Président (M. Rancourt): II va falloir il a été impliqué dans notre lutte. apprendre. M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Une voix: Quel numéro, le mémoire? M. Filotas: À côté de lui, il y a M. Le Président (M. Rancourt): C'est le no Kuppale Tayarak, lui aussi membre du conseil 9. de l'ITN. Il vient du village de Salluit.

Une voix: Fais comme moi, sors ton M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). appareil. M. Filotas: À côté de lui, il y a M. Ali Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Paulusi Lovalinga, qui est président du Conseil Sivuak. communautaire de Povungnituk. Nous lui avons demandé de nous accompagner ici Inuits Tungavingat Nunamini parce que son travail et le domaine dans lequel il oeuvre sont touchés de très près M. Sivuak (Paulusi): (S'exprime dans sa par tout ce qui nous concerne ici. langue). M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). B-9340

M. Filotas: En dernier lieu, il y a M. M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Aisara Kenuayak, également de Povungnituk, qui est ici en tant que représentant de la M. Filotas: Alors, nous savons tous qu'il Coopérative de Povungnituk. On lui avait y a eu, en 1975, une convention de signée, demandé de nous accompagner au cas où la la Convention de la Baie James et du Nord question des coopératives surgirait ici, en québécois. Peut-être avons-nous été un peu assemblée ou en commission, afin qu'il puisse en retard, mais nous avons fait une analyse, répondre sur ces questions. une évaluation de cette convention et c'est à la suite de l'entendement de cette M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). convention qu'est née l'Association des Inuits Tungavingat Nunamini. M. Filotas: Nous avons préparé comme intervention deux points principaux. Le M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). premier point: la raison pour présenter notre groupe et pour vous expliquer pourquoi M. Filotas: Alors, à ce moment, même notre groupe, les Inuits Tungavingat si nous n'étions pas représentés par Nunamini, existe. l'Association des Inuits du Nouveau-Québec, Deuxième point que nous voulons la Convention de la Baie James est apparue aborder ici ce soir, ce sont les et nous nous sommes efforcés de l'examiner, recommandations, ce sont les buts. Nous de comprendre cette convention. voulons définir devant vous les buts et les souhaits de notre groupe. M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue).

M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Nous savons très bien et nous avons compris qu'on disait de cette M. Filotas: II y a deux points connexes convention à ce moment qu'elle ne cherchait que, si on a le temps ou si l'occasion se aucunement à nuire à quiconque, ni aux présente, l'on pourrait aborder. Pour le Inuits, ni à n'importe qui d'autre. moment, on voudrait les mettre de côté, mais il faudrait quand même les mentionner. M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). On voudrait aussi parler des créations que les Inuits ont mis de l'avant avant la M. Filotas: Même si ces gens ont Convention de la Baie James; le deuxième travaillé très fort aux négociations, à la point tend à vous expliquer, encore si on a création de cette convention et ne voulaient le temps, depuis la convention, quelles sont nuire à personne, même si c'était ainsi, les choses, quelles sont les marques de la quand la convention est apparue, quant elle a convention et quels sont les changements qui été signée, c'est par les paroles, les mots ont été apportés à notre territoire. mêmes de la convention que nous fûmes ébranlés. M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Donc, je voudrais revenir au premier point, c'est-à-dire vous expliquer les M. Filotas: Cette convention qui devait raisons de la création de notre groupe des être pour les Inuits avait pour résultat de Inuits Tungavingat Nunamini. Soit dit en nuire aux Inuits, de les blesser en les passant, c'est la première fois depuis huit obligant à céder et à abandonner leurs droits ans que nous avons la chance de nous asseoir en tant que peuple aborigène. à un forum officiel avec le gouvernement pour vous expliquer notre pensée. Pendant M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). ces huit années, nous avons, à maintes (20 h 30) reprises, espéré une telle occasion et nous M. Filotas: Nous avons donc créé notre avons préparé à plusieurs reprises des textes association, notre groupe, afin de combattre et des idées. Nous avons beaucoup réfléchi; cette convention qui, selon nous, si elle mais, comme vous le savez, ces efforts n'ont continue dans son état et sa forme actuelle, jamais abouti. Alors, pour la première fois va enlever, va miner les intérêts des Inuits à en huit ans, nous sommes devant vous pour tout jamais. vous présenter ce que nous pensons. M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: C'est donc la raison qui M. Filotas: Donc, très brièvement, je nous a motivés à créer l'association. Si la vais brosser un tableau des raisons du convention avait été faite de façon qu'elle contexte qui a donné naissance à notre réponde vraiment aux besoins des Inuits, il groupe. Ensuite, Eliyassi vous présentera les n'y aurait jamais eu besoin de créer projets de notre groupe pour le Nouveau- l'Association des Inuits Tungavingat Québec. Nunamini. C'est la première chose dont nous B-9341 voulions vous parler, vous expliquer pourquoi mesure de notre développement, par l'argent notre groupe existe. qu'elles produisaient.

M. Sivuak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Donc, je raconte brièvement les débuts de notre groupe, même si certains M. Filotas: Nous avons créé la d'entre vous ne saisiront pas complètement coopérative; c'est la seule forme certaines choses. Je suis sûr que, dans les d'association que nous avons créée. Nous discussions qui vont suivre ce soir, on aura n'avons jamais eu besoin d'aucune autre sorte l'occasion d'expliciter un peu plus ces d'association. C'est là une des raisons. raisons. Maintenant, Eliyassi va continuer à vous M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa présenter les buts, la vision de notre groupe langue). quant à ce qui devrait être fait au Nouveau- Québec. M. Filotas: Nous voudrions que vous sachiez clairement que nous n'avons jamais Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Eliyassi demandé que cette Association des Inuits du Sallualuk. Nouveau-Québec soit créée; nous n'avons jamais mandaté personne pour qu'elle soit M. Sallualuk (Eliyassi): (S'exprime dans créée et, de surcroît, nous n'avons jamais sa langue). mandaté cette association pour nous représenter au moment des négociations. M. Filotas: Nous voudrions donc remercier le gouvernement du Québec de M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa nous donner cette chance, cette occasion de langue). nous présenter devant vous, nous, les gens de Povungnituk, de Ivujivik et de Salluit, afin de M. Filotas: Ainsi, nous n'avons jamais vous raconter, de vous dire ce que nous mandaté cette association pour négocier la pensons. convention et nous n'avons été qu'informés qu'il y avait eu effectivement entente au M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa moment de la signature de l'entente de langue). principe. Voilà qu'on a découvert qu'il y avait eu une entente de nature globale. M. Filotas: Une autre raison pour laquelle nous vous remercions M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa particulièrement de cette occasion que nous langue). avons de vous parler, c'est parce que c'est la toute première fois, comme le disait M. Filotas: À ce moment-là, nous avons Paulusi tantôt, que le groupe des Inuits rappelé à notre mémoire l'effort qu'avaient Tungavingat Nunamini, depuis sa création en déployé quotidiennement nos ancêtres, ceux 1974, a l'occasion de rencontrer qui sont venus avant nous, sur une terre formellement le gouvernement. extrêmement froide où il n'y a pas d'agriculture pour fournir de la nourriture, M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa les efforts qu'ils ont déployés pour nous. langue). M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: Nous ne reconnaissons pas langue). la Convention de la Baie James, même si nous vivons sur des terres qui, elles, ont été M. Filotas: Quand nous avons compris conventionnées. Voici nos raisons: Nous que, par le truchement de la Convention de n'avons jamais été représentés par la Baie James, nous avons été vendus, nous l'Association des Inuits du Nouveau-Québec; avons été très blessés au fond de notre être. nous n'avons jamais créé cette association; nous n'avons jamais demandé qu'elle soit M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa créée. langue).

M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: Nous avons compris que langue). nous avions été vendus en prenant connaissance, après coup, que, à chaque fois M. Filotas: La seule association que que nous voulions exprimer nos besoins et nous avons créée, ce sont les coopératives. nos demandes, directement au gouvernement C'est le seul outil de rassemblement que celui-ci ne pouvait plus nous écouter. nous avons créé. Nous les avons créées en utilisant nos connaissances, nos propres M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa moyens et nous les avons bâties au fur et à langue). B-9342

M. Filotas: C'est ainsi depuis la M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa Convention de la Baie James. langue).

M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: Nous vous demandons de langue). réfléchir pour voir de quelle façon des lois plus aptes et qui répondent mieux aux M. Filotas: Pourtant, avant cette aspirations des Inuits pourraient être convention, on s'entendait et on pouvait bien adoptées. discuter avec le gouvernement, mais, depuis la convention, et à cause de celle-ci, nous M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa ne pouvons plus communiquer ainsi avec le langue). gouvernement. Quand on va voir le gouvernement, il nous dit: Allez donc plutôt M. Filotas: Donc, si on pouvait établir voir la Corporation Makivik. une véritable base, une base juste sur laquelle nous pourrions travailler ensemble M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa afin que nous puissions faire cela, afin que langue). nous puissions nous entendre, il faudrait que la chose suivante soit créée: il faudrait que M. Filotas: Je vous pose la question: Si les Inuits puissent avoir un gouvernement on vous vendait, accepteriez-vous d'aller avec le pouvoir de faire des lois sur les discuter avec ceux qui vous ont vendus? choses qui nous concernent, qui nous touchent, les choses dont on se sert M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa quotidiennement. langue). M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: On dit de nous que nous langue). devrions aller à l'encontre des lois pour satisfaire à notre refus de la Convention de M. Filotas: Nous considérons qu'il la Baie James, mais vous devez bien faudrait qu'on puisse être capables de faire comprendre quand on va vous dire ce qui des lois au sujet de notre propre vie, au suit. sujet de notre travail, au sujet de la chasse, de l'éducation, de la langue, de la culture, M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa de la trappe, en somme, tout ce qui touche langue). notre vie à nous.

M. Filotas: Nous ne pouvons, en aucune M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa façon, prendre le contrôle des choses qui ne langue). viennent pas de nous, des choses que nous n'avons pas créées, des choses dans lesquelles M. Filotas: C'est seulement si nous nous ne pouvons pas nous reconnaître. pouvons avoir un tel gouvernement que nous allons pouvoir créer des relations entre vous M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa et nous qui vont être normales. langue). (20 h 45) M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: Toutes les choses qui langue). viennent de la convention, toutes les choses qui sont données par la convention et qui M. Filotas: Vous devriez sûrement sont données soi-disant pour notre bien, pour comprendre cela, étant donné que vous êtes assurer notre représentation, assurer notre vous-mêmes un gouvernement à qui on n'a place dans le monde, nous ne pouvons pas les pas arraché le pouvoir de légiférer, d'adopter prendre, nous ne pouvons pas les mettre en des lois dans des domaines importants. motion ou en action, nous ne pouvons pas les faire développer. M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Ce projet pourrait être financé en bloc suivant les besoins M. Filotas: Nous savons que les lois déterminés par le gouvernement du nord lui- n'ont pas de coeur. Les lois ne sont pas même pour la région. faites par amour. M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa langue). langue). M. Filotas: Nous savons qu'il y a au M. Filotas: Et les lois n'ont pas de Canada une habitude, une façon de faire par pensée. laquelle le gouvernement fédéral fait des B-9343 paiements de péréquation aux provinces M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa chaque année. langue).

M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: L'organisation, la forme que langue). doit prendre un tel gouvernement devrait être plus rationnelle et devrait coûter moins M. Filotas: Pour notre gouvernement, cher que ce qui existe présentement. celui qu'on voudrait mettre sur pied, le financement pourrait être fait de la même M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa façon, notre gouvernement étant sous la langue). juridiction du gouvernement québécois. Le financement pourrait se faire selon le M. Filotas: Prenons comme exemple principe de la péréquation. l'organisation de ce qu'on appelle présentement le gouvernement régional du M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa Nouveau-Québec, ou regardons encore la langue). façon dont sont organisés tous les divers organismes issus de la Convention de la Baie M. Filotas: Cette façon de procéder, James. On se retrouve dans une situation qui les principes de ce mode de financement n'a aucun bon sens, on se retrouve dans une pourraient être appliqués au gouvernement du situation où ces associations, ces organismes Nouveau-Québec, le gouvernement que nous existent séparés l'un de l'autre tout en appelons pour le moment le gouvernement prenant beaucoup d'argent pour leur Amamatisivik. C'est le nom que les anciens fonctionnement, des sommes qui pourraient donnaient au territoire. Les besoins pourtant être mieux employées pour le budgétaires annuels de notre gouvernement développement des Inuits si seulement les pourraient être comblés par ce mode de lois le permettaient. financement tout en tenant compte du per capita, du nombre de gens. M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Ce que nous demandons M. Filotas: Ces sommes d'argent peut vous paraître énorme; pourtant, nous ne devraient être versées au gouvernement du croyons pas que ce soit énorme. C'est très Nouveau-Québec sans que les dépenses soient simple, nous reconnaissons que c'est de cela déterminées d'avance par le gouvernement du dont nous avons besoin et il serait très Québec ou par le gouvernement fédéral. Le simple de mettre cela sur pied. gouvernement du Nouveau-Québec serait le seul à pouvoir décider de la façon d'établir M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa ses priorités et de la façon dont ces sommes langue). d'argent seraient dépensées. Maudit que ça va mal ce soir! M. Filotas: Nous voulons que vous compreniez très bien. Nous allons à tout M. Lévesque (Taillon): Ça ne va pas si jamais demander, jusqu'à ce qu'on puisse le mal, on suit. mettre sur pied nous-mêmes, un tel gouvernement qui sera capable de nous M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa représenter pleinement. langue). (21 heures) M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: Quel est le dicton? "Jack of langue). all trades and master of none." C'est à peu près ça. M. Filotas: Nous avons besoin d'un gouvernement que nous-mêmes avons mis sur M. Lévesque (Taillon): Je ne sais pas si pied, un gouvernement qui respecterait nos c'est une bonne traduction, mais on suit besoins, notre culture - deux fois le mot votre traduction. "culture" - qui respecterait notre culture.

M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa langue). langue).

M. Filotas: Pourquoi dit-on des Inuits M. Filotas: II me semble que c'est très qu'ils ne semblent pas être capables de facile de comprendre que, si on nous donne prendre leurs responsabilités? Même s'ils un gouvernement qui vient d'ailleurs que de voulaient les prendre, ils ne peuvent pas les nous ou bien si, à tout jamais, on adopte des prendre. Pourquoi? Parce que les bases et la lois pour nous, il n'y aura aucune façon de définition des responsabilités sont légiférés sauvegarder notre culture. par d'autres que les Inuits. B-9344

M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: Sait-on exactement quel est langue). le montant des dépenses de fonctionnement de tous ces organismes? M. Filotas: Nous ne voulons pas être réduits à n'être que des mains-d'oeuvre pour M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa assurer l'application des lois adoptées par un langue). gouvernement qui n'est pas le nôtre. Si on doit faire cela, c'est sûr et certain que nous M. Filotas: Nous vous demandons de allons perdre notre culture et ce n'est réfléchir à cela, car il est clair que nous certainement pas cela que nous voulons. devons avoir un tel gouvernement qui permettrait non seulement une organisation M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa plus rationnelle et plus efficace, mais qui langue). pourrait aussi mieux agir et dans l'intérêt des Inuits, et dans votre intérêt. M. Filotas: Nous réalisons très clairement qu'il nous est absolument M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa nécessaire d'avoir un véritable gouvernement langue). où nous pourrons décider pour nous-mêmes des choses qui nous concernent. M. Filotas: Voilà donc les pensées, les conclusions auxquelles nous sommes arrivés M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa aujourd'hui; nous vous les présentons. langue). Le Président (M. Rancourt): Y a-t-il M. Filotas: Donc, si nous réussissons à d'autres intervenants? avoir un tel gouvernement, tout le monde, tous les habitants de ce territoire M. Filotas: M. Tamusi Kumak voudrait d'Amamatisivik vont avoir le droit de vote, ajouter quelque chose. de participer aux élections. Il n'est pas question, du tout, d'exclure ou de léser Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Tamusi quiconque. Kumak.

M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa M. Kumak (Tamusi): (S'exprime dans sa langue). langue).

M. Filotas: Je vous demande de M. Filotas: Tamusi voudrait d'abord réfléchir un peu. C'est quoi exactement, la poser une question: Est-ce que la loi 28 sur somme d'argent qui est dépensée par les la chasse, la pêche... deux gouvernements au Nouveau-Québec? C'est quoi, la somme exacte? Est-ce que le M. Kumak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). calcul a été fait? M. Filotas: ...s'applique aux Inuits? M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le premier ministre. M. Filotas: Est-ce que les organismes qui ont été créés pour les Inuits, M. Lévesque (Taillon): Quelle loi? On supposément pour les Inuits, ont été parle de chasse et de pêche. comptés? Combien d'organismes y a-t-il? M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa inuite). langue). M. Kumak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Et les employés de ces organismes, est-ce que leur nombre a déjà M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue été compté? inuite). J'ai un peu de difficulté à comprendre. M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le ministre du Loisir, de la Chasse et de la M. Filotas: Et ce que nécessitent tous Pêche. ces employés, leurs salaires et autres dépenses, est-ce que cet argent a déjà été M. Chevrette: Je vais risquer une comptabilisé? réponse, en tout cas. Si elle ne vous satisfait pas, vous reposerez votre question. Si vous M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa parlez du chapitre 28 qui a créé la Loi sur langue). la conservation de la faune, effectivement, B-9345 cela s'applique à tout le monde, sauf que, ont chacun leurs habitudes propres, habitudes bien sûr, les Inuits ont le droit en tout que le Créateur, celui qui a créé les temps à la chasse et à la pêche de animaux, leur a données. Et nous, les Inuits, subsistance. Mais, s'il est prouvé qu'il y a nous connaissons très bien leurs coutumes. exagération, que cela dépasse les normes de la subsistance, ils sont passibles d'infraction, Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Eliyassi oui. C'est exact, elle s'applique, sauf qu'on Sallualuk. tolère toujours, aux fins de subsistance, la chasse et la pêche. M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Suivant la convention, c'est cela? M. Filotas: Cette question qui a été posée, elle a été posée parce qu'elle se M. Chevrette: À l'intérieur de la rapporte à une chose d'une importance convention, c'est la même chose. fondamentale pour les Inuits. Elle a parfaitement sa place dans le contexte de ce M. Filotas: À l'extérieur de la que nous venons de présenter car nous convention, c'est la même chose? croyons que c'est un domaine dans lequel notre gouvernement devrait avoir le pouvoir M. Chevrette: À l'intérieur comme à de légiférer. Alors, nous vous demandons - l'extérieur. On dit toujours que vous avez le parce que le temps est limité, comme vous droit de chasser et de pêcher, conformément le savez - si vous avez des questions quant à à vos lois, aux fins de subsistance, mais à l'essence de ce que nous venons de vous l'extérieur ou à l'intérieur des terrains présenter. conventionnés. Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le M. Filotas: D'accord. (S'exprime dans la député de Duplessis. langue inuite). M. Perron: Si vous le permettez, M. le M. Kumak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Président, je voudrais demander à M. Filotas de bien vouloir demander à M. Kumak de M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue reposer la question qu'il a posée tout à inuite). l'heure, car il y a une ambiguïté entre la loi 28 et la loi 24. Alors, si vous pouviez M. Utamak (John): (S'exprime dans sa demander à M. Kumak de reposer sa question langue). pour que le ministre puisse y répondre.

M. Kumak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Chevrette: Je pense que je pourrais peut-être répondre tout de suite parce que, M. Filotas: Si la convention reste dans de la façon dont il a posé la question, il n'a sa forme actuelle, nous allons nous trouver pas besoin de la poser à nouveau; je l'ai dans une situation, dit Tamusi comme celle comprise. que j'ai décrite, à un moment donné, cet été, alors que deux individus responsables du Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le programme de revenu garanti pour les ministre du Loisir, de la Chasse et de la pêcheurs, chasseurs et trappeurs au Nouveau- Pêche. Québec sont venus nous voir. On leur a écrit ce qui suit. Tamusi lit le texte de la lettre: M. Chevrette: Sur les terrains il dit que les animaux - nous le savons très conventionnés, autrement dit les terrains bien - ne restent pas toujours à la même couverts par la Convention de la Baie James, place. Ils se déplacent d'un lieu à l'autre et c'est un droit de chasse et de pêche c'est ainsi, en les suivant et en les chassant, exclusif, y compris certaines modalités en ce qu'à travers les âges nous avons réussi à qui concerne les pourvoiries. S'ils sortaient survivre en les suivant partout: sur la du territoire ils tomberaient dans les terre, sur les banquises, sur les riviè- Territoires du Nord-Ouest: je suppose que res, etc. vous ne chassez pas vers le sud. S'ils (21 h 15) chassaient vers le sud, par hasard, ils M. Kumak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). tomberaient en territoire non conventionné et ce serait la loi de la conservation du Québec M. Filotas: Nous, les Inuits qui vivons qui s'appliquerait. Cela ne peut pas être plus ici sur le territoire, nous connaissons très clair. bien les animaux. Nous savons que les animaux agissent, se déplacent, ont des Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le habitudes qui sont régies comme par des lois. député de Mont-Royal. Ce n'est pas fait au hasard. Les animaux ne réagissent pas tous de la même façon; ils M. Ciaccia: Je veux seulement ajouter: B-9346 il y a des catégories... zones 1 et 2. C'est l'ensemble du territoire qui a 423 000 milles carrés. Cette zone 3, Une voix: Oui, mais là, ils ne c'est une zone ouverte aux autochtones et comprendront plus rien. aux non-autochtones. Les autochtones ont le droit de chasse et de pêche dans tout le Le Président (M. Rancourt): Donc, M. territoire. Dans la catégorie 3, il y a des Filotas, si vous voulez traduire, s'il vous espèces qui sont réservées exclusivement aux plaît. autochtones. La liste de toutes ces espèces mentionne les ours polaires, dont on se M. Filotas: Est-ce que je pourrais faire plaignait, les ours noirs, les loups, etc. qui un petit commentaire? sont réservés aux autochtones. La loi 28 présentée par le ministre est sujette à toutes Le Président (M. Rancourt): Oui. les restrictions qui sont dans cette entente. Autrement dit, l'entente a préséance sur la M. Filotas: C'est que, avec cela, on ne nouvelle loi que le ministre vient de faire sait pas de quelle loi 28 on parle. adopter à l'Assemblée nationale.

M. Chevrette: C'est la loi concernant M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue les droits de chasse et de pêche dans les inuite). territoires de la Baie James et du Nouveau- Québec. Le projet de loi 28 donne Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. l'exclusivité de chasse et de pêche aux Inuits l'interprète, les explications qui ont été sur les terrains conventionnés, les territoires données par le ministre et le député de de la Convention de la Baie James. À ce Mont-Royal vous suffisent-elles pour moment-là, des normes ont été établies. l'instant? C'est vous-mêmes qui faites les règlements pour les pourvoiries. Vous octroyez même des M. Filotas: II semble, oui, parce qu'ils propositions à un individu qui veut aller discutent de leur prochaine intervention. pêcher sur ce territoire: je suis déjà allé avec la permission d'un chef de bande. Donc, Le Président (M. Rancourt): D'accord! je sais comment cela fonctionne. C'est On pourrait aussi donner la parole au lorsqu'ils sortent du territoire... Natu- premier ministre et au député de Mont- rellement, je pense que vous allez vers Royal, à la suite du mémoire que vous avez le nord et que vous tombez dans les présenté. Par la suite, on pourrait amorcer Territoires du Nord-Ouest qui ne sont pas une discussion. Est-ce que cela vous irait couverts par le Québec, mais par le Canada. comme façon de travailler, M. l'interprète? Si vous alliez vers le sud, il est bien évident que ce seraient des terrains non M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue conventionnés. Si vous sortez en dehors du inuite). territoire couvert par la convention, là, c'est la Loi sur la conservation de la faune qui Le Président (M. Rancourt): Est-ce que s'applique. cela va? Cela va. Donc, je donne la parole au premier ministre. M. Filotas: Donc, les droits de chasse et de pêche sont définis par la convention M. Lévesque (Taillon): Je vais essayer et, à l'extérieur de cela, c'est l'autre. d'être le plus bref possible, mais je dois dire que de voir ici les gens qui s'appellent M. Chevrette: Les Territoires du Nord- maintenant Inuit Tungavingat Nunamini, cela Ouest, c'est le Canada et au sud, c'est nous. me rajeunit de 20 ans parce que cela rappelle les gens de Povungnituk, Ivujivik en Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le particulier, que l'on rencontrait il y a 20 député de Mont-Royal. ans, dans les années 1962, 1963, 1964 pour la première fois. M. Ciaccia: Avant que vous traduisiez ce que le ministre vient de dire, je veux Une voix: (S'exprime dans sa langue). clarifier ceci. Il y a trois zones, il y a trois catégories de territoire. Il y a la catégorie 1 M. Filotas: Vous avez rencontré les qui est une zone complètement et gens de Povungnituk à ce moment-là? exclusivement contrôlée par les autochtones. Il y a la catégorie 2 qui comprend les M. Lévesque (Taillon): Oui, en 1962. territoires sur lesquels les autochtones ont l'exclusivité du droit de chasse et de pêche, M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue y compris le droit d'autoriser des non- inuite). autochtones à chasser et à pêcher. Ensuite, il y a la zone 3. Cette catégorie couvre tout M. Lévesque (Taillon): Les Inuits de le territoire, tout ce qui n'est pas dans les Povungnituk. On disait alors des Esquimaux. B-9347

On n'avait pas appris le vrai mot. Les Inuits M. Lévesque (Taillon): C'est ce qui est de Povungnituk nous apprenaient la situation arrivé après qui est moins drôle. difficile dans laquelle se trouvait leur coopérative - ils avaient découvert la M. Filotas: Un rôle clé. formule coopérative - qui avait été fondée depuis deux ans à ce moment. M. Lévesque (Taillon): Ensuite, c'est (21 h 30) peut-être... Pardon. M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite). Une voix: Attendez une seconde. Il y a deux ans, cela fait 1960. M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue M. Lévesque (Taillon): À peu près, oui. inuite). M. Lévesque (Taillon): Ensuite, le M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue système d'éducation pour les Inuits du Nord inuite). devait être fondé d'abord et avant tout sur leur identité et sur leur décision de rester M. Lévesque (Taillon): Alors, le Québec au Nord. À ce moment-là, il y avait une a décidé de les aider - c'était la première sorte de tendance de l'administration fois que nous étions mis au courant de la fédérale à essayer de les déraciner vers le situation dans le Grand-Nord - parce que sud. On ne croyait pas que cela était c'est évident que la formule coopérative est normal. comme un prolongement de leur culture qui est basée sur le partage et sur le M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue développement communautaire, c'est-à-dire inuite). sur le sens de la communauté, de la col- lectivité. M. Lévesque (Taillon): Troisièmement, on avait promis aussi - cet engagement a M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue été réalisé du mieux qu'on le pouvait - inuite). d'aider les coopératives pour les raisons que j'ai données et comme on le dit en anglais, M. Lévesque (Taillon): Et, en mars "no strings attached", c'est-à-dire, s'ils le 1964, c'était la première rencontre d'un voulaient, de leur fournir des services ministre québécois - c'était votre serviteur techniques. Je crois qu'à l'époque, les caisses qui était ministre des Richesses naturelles - populaires avaient donné un coup de main avec les représentants de tous les villages du pour aider les coopératives, surtout à Nord. Cela s'est passé à ce qu'on appelait Povungnituk et Ivujivik, à résister à Fort-Chimo, à l'époque. Au moins un de ceux l'exploitation de la Hudson Bay Company en qui étaient présents, M. Tamusi Kumak, est particulier qui était... En tout cas, j'aime encore ici aujourd'hui. Salut! autant ne pas dire ce que c'était, mais ce n'était pas très beau. M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite). M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite). M. Lévesque (Taillon): Et je veux saluer tous les autres aussi. Je les remercie d'être M. Lévesque (Taillon): Ensuite, le temps venus - je ne veux pas nommer tout le a passé. Il y a eu d'autres gouvernements. monde, mais, enfin, on se reconnaît - en Finalement, d'une façon dont on n'est pas particulier le président, M. Paulusi Sivuak, et responsables, avant notre gouvernement, on a tous les autres. Je voudrais simplement négocié et on a signé avec ceux qui le rappeler qu'à ce moment, en 1964, nous voulaient la Convention de la Baie James. avions pris des engagements au nom du gouvernement, qui était le gouvernement M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue libéral des années soixante. inuite).

M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue M. Lévesque (Taillon): Toute la inuite). convention.

M. Lévesque (Taillon): Je résume ces M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue engagements pris à l'époque. C'était, inuite). premièrement, que les Inuits devaient jouer un rôle clé, un rôle essentiel dans le M. Lévesque (Taillon): Cette convention, développement du territoire qu'ils habitent. nous devons la respecter puisque notre gouvernement a hérité des signatures qui ont M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue été appliquées sur le papier et, inuite). contrairement à ce que d'autres font parfois, B-9348 il faut respecter ces signatures. que nous devons remercier beaucoup M. Georges Filotas - il est obligé de traduire M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue cela - qui est d'origine hongroise, qui parle inuite). l'une des langues les plus difficiles au monde, le magyar, qui parle aussi le français M. Lévesque (Taillon): Nous comprenons et l'anglais, on l'a vu, et qui réussit à se aussi pourquoi vous êtes dissidents. Nous débrouiller en inuttituuit. Félicitations et comprenons certains dangers que vous merci beaucoup. Ensuite, je poserai ma évoquez, le danger de la bureaucratie, du question. Mais si vous voulez traduire cela et gaspillage et de certaines, appelons cela une traduction exacte, s'il vous plaît! ainsi, manipulations sophistiquées qui peuvent sortir des structures inventées au moment de M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue la convention. inuite). Vous pouvez poser votre question. M. Filotas: Je ne saisis pas trop votre M. Lévesque (Taillon): Oui, on ne vous dernière phrase. fera plus souffrir. La seule question, c'est celle-ci. La situation est très pénible, c'est M. Lévesque (Taillon): Je résume, en sûr. C'est compréhensible aussi. Mais est-ce fait, certains arguments qu'ils ont dits. Nous que M. Sivuak ou un des autres pourrait nous comprenons, à partir du fait qu'ils sont dire s'il voit un espoir? Est-ce qu'il y a des dissidents, qu'ils ont saisi une chose qui nous relations, quand même, entre les deux inquiète, nous aussi, c'est-à-dire le danger groupes, le groupe de la convention et le d'une bureaucratie et de beaucoup de groupe des dissidents? Est-ce que cela gaspillage dans ces structures inventées par s'améliore et est-ce qu'ils ont l'espoir qu'un la convention, qui peuvent être manipulées jour cette réflexion qu'ils ont poursuivie de façon très sophistiquée. puisse donner des résultats? Autrement dit, je pense que quelqu'un a dit: On nous a donné un gros avion et on M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue n'est pas sûr de pouvoir le manoeuvrer. On inuite). nous l'a donné avant qu'on ait été capable de le manoeuvrer. Il y en a donc d'autres Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Eliyassi qui risquent de le manoeuvrer à notre place. Sallualuk. Est-ce que c'est clair? M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: Cela va. (S'exprime dans la langue). langue inuite). (21 h 45) M. Filotas: II a répondu à cela de la M. Lévesque (Taillon): II y a le danger façon suivante. Je veux vous assurer que, si même que des parasites professionnels nous avions un véritable gouvernement, avec dévorent, de façon excessive, des ressources des pouvoirs de faire des lois, il n'y a aucun qui devraient servir, d'abord, au doute que les Inuits du Nouveau-Québec développement et au progrès des Inuits eux- seraient unifiés et que cette division, qui mêmes. existe présentement, serait oubliée comme si elle n'avait jamais existé. M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite en inuttituuit). M. Lévesque (Taillon): J'espère que cela arrivera mais, en attendant, je peux prendre M. Lévesque (Taillon): C'est pourquoi, un seul engagement - parce que nous n'avons d'un côté, nous sommes tenus de respecter pas le droit de décider pour eux - c'est que et d'administrer, conjointement avec les nous allons continuer à soutenir, comme s'ils signataires, le mieux possible la convention. étaient bénéficiaires - je crois que c'est D'un autre côté, nous avons, je dois le dire normal - la population que représente le personnellement, beaucoup de respect et Tungavingat Nunamini, c'est-à-dire les gens d'admiration pour certaines positions de nos de Povungnituk, Ivujivik et de Salluit. Il n'est interlocuteurs de ce soir, parce qu'ils forcent pas question de les laisser tomber. tout le monde à réfléchir. M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite). inuite en inuttituuit). Le Président (M. Rancourt): Eliyassi M. Lévesque (Taillon): Alors, nous allons Sallualuk. réfléchir et vous aller aider, par vos interventions, à la réflexion de tout le M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa monde. Là-dessus, je voudrais vous poser une langue). seule question, mais avant de poser la question, je voudrais simplement souligner M. Filotas: II vous pose une question à B-9349 son tour. Si les deux factions qui existent gouvernement en a hérité, c'est vrai, mais, présentement au Nouveau-Québec décident de quand il était dans l'Opposition, son gouver- travailler ensemble pour la création d'un tel nement a donné son entier appui à l'entente gouvernement, est-ce que vous pourriez leur de la Baie James. dire: Bon, allez-y? M. Lévesque (Taillon): Notre gouverne- M. Lévesque (Taillon): Ma réponse, c'est ment, dans l'Opposition? oui. M. Ciaccia: Non, quand le Parti M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue québécois était dans l'Opposition, pour être inuite). plus précis, il a appuyé l'entente entière- ment. M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite). M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite). M. Ciaccia: Et, quand le premier ministre parle de la bureaucratie et du Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le danger que des parasites professionnels député de Mont-Royal. puissent utiliser les ressources qui ont été mises à la disposition des autochtones, je M. Ciaccia: Merci, M. le Président. Le suis certain qu'il ne fait pas allusion aux premier ministre nous a informés que, quand centaines d'autochtones qui travaillent pour il était ministre des Ressources naturelles du ces organismes. Ce ne sont pas des gouvernement libéral de 1960-1962, il avait organismes qui ont été imposés aux pris certains engagements envers les Inuits. autochtones, ils ont été demandés par les autochtones eux-mêmes, la commission M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue scolaire, la question du gouvernement inuite). régional. Ce n'est pas le gouvernement ou l'autre partie, la Société d'énergie de la Baie M. Ciaccia: Principalement il y en James ou Hydro-Québec qui ont imposé ces avait trois: l'engagement que les Inuits organismes. Ils ont été créés à la demande devaient jouer un rôle clef dans le territoire, même des autochtones, sauf les dissidents, que le système d'éducation devait être fondé mais ceux qui ont signé et qui font partie de sur l'idée de rester dans le Grand-Nord et, l'entente. troisièmement, il leur avait promis d'aider les coopératives "no strings attached", M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue sensiblement pour contrer l'exploitation de la inuite). Hudson Bay. M. Ciaccia: Le premier ministre n'était M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue pas ici hier soir. La Société Makivik a inuite). présenté un mémoire et elle a témoigné que, (20 heures) des 60 000 000 $ qu'elle a déjà reçus, le M. Ciaccia: Je voudrais informer le capital est encore intact. Cela, pour premier ministre - je suis bien certain qu'il démontrer comme cela a bien été administré le sait déjà - que c'est un autre jusqu'à présent. gouvernement libéral qui a rempli les engagements que le premier ministre avait M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue pris en 1962 par l'entente de la Baie James, inuite). parce que les Inuits jouent maintenant un rôle clé. Quant à la question de l'éducation, M. Ciaccia: Vous parlez de l'entente de ils ont la commission scolaire Kativik et, la Baie James, vous dites ne pas être quant à la question d'aider les coopératives, d'accord avec l'entente. Je suis au courant ils ont maintenant la société Makivik qui est que vous ne l'êtes pas, vous avez fait valoir suffisamment financée, non seulement pour votre point de vue en 1975, à la commission contrer la Hudson's Bay dans le Grand-Nord, parlementaire. Vous êtes revenus, je crois, en mais pour l'acheter. 1978. Je crois que c'était M. Filotas qui était interprète à ce moment-là. Je dois M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue aussi l'en féliciter. inuite). Il y a eu une commission parlementaire sur les coopératives et la Société Makivik. M. Ciaccia: II y a certains propos du Une autre fois, les dissidents de vos premier ministre qui, je l'espère, ne seront communautés sont venus nous informer qu'ils pas mal interprétés par quiconque, quand il a n'étaient pas d'accord avec les conditions de dit que son gouvernement avait hérité de l'entente de la Baie James. l'entente et qu'il devait la respecter. Son B-9350

M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite). inuite). (20 h 15) Après l'étape de 1978, de quoi avez- En réponse à votre première question, vous parlé? M. Ciaccia, les gens de Povungnituk, d'Ivujivik et une grande partie de la M. Ciaccia: II y a eu une commission population de Saglouc n'ont pas participé, parlementaire où vous avez, encore une fois, n'ont pas voulu toucher à ce vote, pour ne fait valoir votre point de vue. pas utiliser le mot "référendum".

M. Fïlotas: Est-ce que vous avez dit M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa quelque chose là-dessus, par la suite? langue).

M. Ciaccia: Non. M. Filotas: À ce moment-là, cette convention paraissait très bonne pour les M. Filotas: D'accord. Continuez. Inuits du Nouveau-Québec.

M. Ciaccia: Quand vous avez comparu M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa devant la première commission parlementaire, langue). en 1975, vous n'étiez pas d'accord avec les conditions de l'entente. Il y avait une clause M. Filotas: Mais aujourd'hui nous dans l'entente selon laquelle, dans les quatre sommes divisés, nous, les gens qui vivons là- mois suivants la signature de la convention, bas. Nous sommes divisés par la création de celle-ci devrait être soumise aux Cris et aux cette convention et par ce que cette Inuits pour fins de consultation et de convention a créé elle aussi. confirmation, et ce, d'une façon acceptable au Canada. Autrement dit, on savait qu'il y M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa avait certaines dissidences, on voulait langue). s'assurer qu'il y aurait une consultation et un vote sur l'entente et on n'a pas pris la M. Filotas: 90%? section 2.16. On a stipulé que ce devait être acceptable au Canada pour ne pas qu'il y ait M. Sallualuk: 90%. (S'exprime dans sa de conflit d'intérêts au Québec. langue). Subséquemment, il y a eu une consultation, un vote et une ratification. M. Filotas: Et, en guise de réflexion... Pourriez-vous nous donner le pourcentage de ceux qui ont voté et le pourcentage de ceux M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa qui ont voté pour l'entente? langue).

M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue M. Filotas: En guise de réflexion sur ce inuite). que M. Ciaccia a dit à propos des 60 000 000 $ qui sont encore intacts... là M. Ciaccia: Avez-vous fini de traduire? ici c'est très bien; il a vu qu'en dépit de ces sommes, en dépit de l'existence de nombreux M. Filotas: Oui. organismes, le taux de chômage dans le Nord est incroyable: il frise les 90%. M. Ciaccia: Juste une dernière question. Est-ce qu'il est possible - je pense que le M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa premier ministre a posé la question, mais je langue). n'ai pas saisi tout à fait la réponse - d'avoir des relations de travail avec les non- M. Filotas: Donc, il est clair - nous dissidents, ceux qui travaillent pour appliquer sommes arrivés à cette constatation-là - que l'entente? Est-ce qu'il y a des projets nous et ceux qui ont accepté dans le temps spécifiques sur lesquels les membres de votre la convention de la Baie James, nous devons communauté travaillent avec les autres nous concentrer à changer cette situation. communautés dans l'application de l'entente? M. Ciaccia: Juste une question. M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite). Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le député de Mont-Royal. Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Eliyassi Sallualuk. M. Ciaccia: Quand nos invités ont mentionné qu'ils voulaient un véritable M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa gouvernement afin de faire leurs propres lois langue). et ont demandé au premier ministre, si votre groupe se joignait aux autres groupes M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue d'Inuits, s'il serait prêt à accepter ou à B-9351 mettre en place un tel gouvernement, le directement, d'organiser leur vie, nous premier ministre a semblé répondre oui. Afin serions immédiatement prêts à en parler qu'il n'y ait pas encore de faux espoirs et avec eux et à accepter immédiatement la pour ne pas qu'on revienne plus tard sans perspective. On pourrait négocier sur cette savoir exactement est-ce qu'on pourrait base, quand ils le voudront. demander au premier ministre ce que représenterait ce gouvernement que vous M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue avez accepté? Les groupes autochtones inuite) demandent la souveraineté sur leur territoire. Est-ce que cela comprend une souveraineté M. Lévesque (Taillon): Nous serons sur leur territoire? disponibles n'importe quand, mais c'est à eux de décider. Le Président (M. Rancourt): Si vous voulez traduire en premier... Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le député de Mont-Royal. M. Ciaccia: Traduisez. M. Ciaccia: Je voudrais assurer le M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa langue) premier ministre qu'il n'était pas question de faire un ballon politique ou de la partisanerie M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue politique. Je faisais référence au comité inuite) fédéral qui vient de publier un rapport sur le "Indian or Native Self-Government" qui Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le appelle cela l'autonomie politique. Je voulais premier ministre. que le premier ministre précise ses propos, ce que lui entend par un gouvernement tel M. Lévesque (Taillon): Je ne voudrais que demandé par les Inuits. Ce n'est pas une pas que l'Opposition libérale - c'est une mise question de partisanerie. Je veux seulement en garde que je fais - se serve de cette qu'on sache exactement ce que le premier perspective pour en faire un ballon partisan. ministre avait en vue. Première remarque. Franchement, je ne suis pas venu au monde hier. M. Lévesque (Taillon): On a toujours les plus pures intentions, mais quand même c'est Le Président (M. Rancourt): S'il vous mieux d'en parler un peu. plaît: M. Ciaccia: On s'en parle. M. Lévesque (Taillon): C'est une première chose. Je m'excuse, je n'ai pas M. Lévesque (Taillon): Deuxièmement, interrompu le député de Mont-Royal, et je demain probablement, si on finit demain, on vais dire ce que j'ai à dire. Je ne voudrais pourra répondre de façon générale en partie pas - simple remarque - que les libéraux aux demandes qui ont été faites depuis le cèdent à la tentation habituelle de début, c'est-à-dire les éléments d'une transformer les propos que j'ai tenus sur un résolution possible devant l'Assemblée natio- sujet aussi important en ballon partisan. nale. Je pense que, peut-être, ce sera plus Première chose. précis à ce moment.

M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue M. Ciaccia: On a même offert au inuite) premier ministre notre consentement même si c'est passé les délais. M. Lévesque (Taillon): J'ai entendu les représentants de Tungavingat Nunamini dire: M. Lévesque (Taillon): D'accord. Oui. Ce que nous voulons, c'est un gouvernement autonome sous la juridiction du Québec, Le Président (M. Rancourt): Pour faisant partie du Québec. Est-ce que je me permettre à M. Filotas de traduire. suis trompé? M. Lévesque (Taillon): Bonne chance. M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite) M. Filotas: Je n'ai pas compris le sens Vous ne vous êtes pas trompé. exact de votre dernière intervention.

M. Lévesque (Taillon): Si je ne me suis M. Lévesque (Taillon): Très simplement, pas trompé, ce que j'ai dit tout à l'heure je disais que peut-être certaines choses signifie ceci. C'est simple, si l'unité revient seront un peu plus claires demain si nous chez les Inuits dans le sens d'une autonomie pouvons - je ne le sais pas encore - très à l'intérieur du Québec qui leur permettrait bientôt, peut-être demain, expliquer un peu de mieux administrer leurs affaires, de faire la façon dont on présenterait une résolution les lois dans les domaines qui les concernent sur les droits des Inuits et des Indiens à B-9352 l'Assemblée nationale avant la fin de gens de son groupe vous remercient d'avoir décembre. eu l'occasion de présenter le fond de leur pensée, ce qu'ils veulent vraiment pour le M. Filotas: Je ne sais pas si c'est la Nouveau-Québec. Ils sont heureux aussi que fatigue là, mais est-ce que vous dites... vous ayez écouté attentivement. Ils sont surtout très heureux du fait que la question M. Lévesque (Taillon): Écoutez... qu'ils ont posée a reçu une réponse favorable. Ils remercient les membres de la M. Filotas: Cela dépend de vous. Quand commission et tous ceux qui sont ici vous parlez de demain, voulez-vous préciser aujourd'hui et ils souhaitent à l'avenir qu'on les choses avec ces gens? puisse travailler ensemble pour réaliser ce projet. M. Lévesque (Taillon): Non, ce serait d'une façon générale, mais cela s'appliquerait Le Président (M. Rancourt): Je vous à eux aussi certaines des choses qu'on aura à remercie, M. Filotas, d'avoir bien voulu dire si on peut les dire demain parce que interpréter dans les deux sens, évidemment. cela dépend un peu de certaines discussions Je crois que cela met un terme à la qu'on a avec tous nos interlocuteurs. rencontre avec les Inuit Tungavingat Écoutez, pour simplifier les choses, est-ce Nunamini. que je pourrais dire ceci? Cette idée de l'autonomie qui a été évoquée par le comité M. Ciaccia: Je veux remercier le fédéral, sans entrer dans le détail, cela nous groupe des Inuits Tungavingat Nunamini pour paraît être la voie de l'avenir pour les Inuits leur présentation et leur dire que nous allons comme pour les autres populations nous assurer que les engagements que le autochtones du Québec. Il s'agit de savoir gouvernement a pris ce soir seront respectés. comment on définit ensemble cette Nous allons faire notre possible pour appuyer autonomie. la question et la réponse que le premier ministre vous a donnée. M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite) M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite). Le Président (M. Rancourt): Je me permets de vous dire que, sur proposition du Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le premier ministre, acceptée par l'Opposition, ministre délégué aux Relations avec les nous aimerions faire une pause de cinq citoyens. minutes, pour vous-même, M. Filotas, et pour chacun parce que nous sommes ici depuis M. Lazure: M. le Président, au nom du vingt heures. C'est une pause pour tout parti ministériel, je veux aussi remercier nos simplement suspendre la séance cinq minutes invités. Je veux les assurer que le premier et vous reviendrez avec la réponse par la ministre, M. Lévesque, que vous connaissez suite. Est-ce que cela vous va? depuis plusieurs années, a depuis longtemps pris l'habitude de tenir ses engagements, que M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue l'Opposition le surveille ou non. Je vous inuite). souhaite une bonne nuit et un bon retour dans le Grand-Nord. Merci. (Suspension de la séance à 22 h 32) M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite). (Reprise de la séance à 22 h 50) Le Président (M. Rancourt): ... Le Président (M. Rancourt): À l'ordre, Nous appelons maintenant l'Administra- s'il vous plaît! Veuillez prendre place. À tion régionale Kativik. Pendant que le groupe l'ordre, s'il vous plaît! s'avance à la table, comme nous avons Nous reprenons les audiences avec le dépassé depuis déjà 55 minutes l'heure qui groupe précité, Inuit Tungavingat Nunamini. avait été prévue pour la fin de cette À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît! commission, soit 22 heures, je présume qu'il La parole est au groupe. Je crois que y a consentement pour rencontrer c'est M. Eliyassi Sallualuk qui a demandé la l'Administration régionale de Kativik. On va parole et nous avons convenu ensemble que, terminer vers quelle heure? Essayons d'en dans cinq minutes, nous devrions pouvoir arriver... terminer. M. Eliyassi Sallualuk. M. Ciaccia: Avant de recommencer la M. Sallualuk: (S'exprime dans sa prochaine séance demain matin. langue). Le Président (M. Rancourt): Donc, il y M. Filotas: M. Sallualuk dit que les a consentement pour terminer le plus tôt B-9353 possible, mais après avoir entendu le groupe M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa de l'Administration régionale Kativik. langue).

M. Filotas: Est-ce que je dois traduire M. Filotas: II y a Angnatuic Nassak de cela? la communauté de Kangirsuk, qui lui aussi fait partie du conseil de Kativik. Une voix: S'il vous plaît, non. M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa Une voix: II reste avec nous, il traduit langue). en groupe. M. Filotas: II y a Paulosie Napartuk de Une voix: II continue, il traduit en Kuujjuarapik, aussi membre du conseil de groupe. Kativik.

Le Président (M. Rancourt): Je souhaite M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa la bienvenue à l'Administration régionale langue). Kativik. Je demande au président de ce groupe de se présenter et de nommer ceux M. Filotas: En dernier, je voudrais gui l'accompagnent. mentionner Mark R. Gordon de Fort-Chimo, de Kuujjuak, vice-président de la Société Administration régionale Kativik Makivik, qui nous accompagne.

M. Keleutak (Josepie): (S'exprime dans M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa sa langue). langue).

M. Filotas: Mesdames, messieurs, M. Filotas: Nous vous remercions de membres de la commission et tous ceux qui nous offrir cette occasion de nous exprimer sont ici présents en ce moment. Je me à l'occasion de cet examen des politiques présente, je suis Josepie Keleutak, président gouvernementales au sujet des autochtones. de l'Administration régionale Kativik. Sont Alors, nous allons vous présenter le mémoire avec moi, à ma droite, M. Charlie Watt, qui que nous avons préparé pour l'occasion. est un des négociateurs au sujet de la Avant de commencer, Josepie vous avise que constitution pour les Inuits et aussi membre les gens assis avec lui à cette table vont, du conseil de Fort-Chimo et représentant de eux aussi, contribuer à certaines choses dans la Communauté de Fort-Chimo Kuujjauak, au le courant de la soirée, particulièrement sein de l'Administration régionale de Kativik. Charlie Watt.

M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). langue).

M. Filotas: À droite de M. Charlie M. Filotas: Donc, c'est à la conférence Watt, il y a M. Willie Makiuk, qui est mon constitutionnelle tenue a Ottawa au mois de prédécesseur à titre de président de l'Admi- mars dernier que le premier ministre du nistration régionale de Kativik. Il est ici, Québec, M. Lévesque, a déclaré qu'il était aujourd'hui, en guise de conseiller dans le prêt à discuter du concept d'autonomie processus de passation des pouvoirs, car les régionale dans le cadre de la constitution élections ont eu lieu très récemment. québécoise.

M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). langue). (23 heures) M. Filotas: À ma gauche, il y a M. Filotas: Or, avant d'entamer un tel Paulosie Padlayat du village de Salluit, débat, nous devons signaler à la présente représentant de ce village au sein du conseil commission que nous avons de grandes Kativik et aussi vice-président du affinités avec les Inuits du Labrador et des gouvernement régional. Territoires du Nord-Ouest, affinités ancestra- les, culturelles, sociales et autres. M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa Le Québec doit donc reconnaître que langue). certains droits constitutionnels en ce qui concerne des sujets d'ordre collectif dans M. Filotas: Immédiatement à côté de l'article sont pour nous des garanties de lui, il y a David Annanack, de survie. Kangiqsualujjuak, connu en français sous le nom de Port-Nouveau-Québec, George-River, M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa et qui lui aussi fait partie du conseil de langue). Kativik. B-9354

M. Filotas: Cela dit, il est loisible de demandons au gouvernement du Québec de croire que les objectifs que nous formulons percevoir nos revendications positivement. Il dans le débat constitutionnel seront faut bien comprendre que se font face ici acceptables, autant sur le plan fédéral que deux peuples majoritaires chez eux, qui provincial, pour autant qu'on n'atteigne pas doivent se parler d'homme à homme, d'égal l'intégrité même de ces gouvernements. à égal. Nous devrons en tant que partenaires poursuivre l'esprit de la convention en M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa termes d'assistance technique, de dévelop- langue). pement et d'autogestion.

M. Filotas: En contrepartie, notre M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa intégrité aussi sera mesurée, mais sur la langue). légitimité de notre politique d'autonomie régionale. M. Filotas: En commençant par l'esprit même de la convention, nous devons, pour M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa garantir notre autonomie, nous assurer que langue). les instances décisionnelles soient celles du Nord. Le gouvernement régional, avec le M. Filotas: Bien que notre évolution pouvoir que la convention lui a donné, historique n'ait été qu'une longue lutte de s'assurera que la décision prise pour les survivance sur les terres de glace, nous Inuits soit fondée sur le système de valeurs avons quand même transmis nos valeurs de de chez eux. génération en génération et nous nous sommes ainsi donné une culture. M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: La convention ne pouvant M. Filotas: Or, dans un passé très être modifiée ou changée sans le consente- récent, notre culture a été assaillie par des ment de notre peuple, il devient prioritaire structures étrangères très complexes pour pour le gouvernement régional d'aller nous. Vos institutions, avec toutes leurs chercher auprès de la population le mandat exigences, nous ont lancé le défi de formuler de faire des recommandations pour des notre autonomie régionale sans toutefois nous changements à cette convention. donner les moyens de voir à notre développement. M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Ce gouvernement doit - le gouvernement dont on parle plus haut - avoir M. Filotas: Nous sommes donc les responsabilités de toutes les choses qui aujourd'hui à appliquer notre système de nous concernent, les questions de travail au valeurs au défi qui nous a été lancé. Nous Nord, les possibilités de faire des budgets traiterons du sujet en tant que partenaires avec l'argent et de toutes ces choses qui du gouvernement du Québec et nous nous touchent quotidiennement. Nous nous chercherons des assises financières solides appliquerons entre autres à définir le pour exécuter nos plans. chapitre 29 de la convention en ce qui concerne la recherche qui en l'occurrence est M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa une activité stérile sur le plan du langue). développement. Nous tâcherons, en tant que responsables de la planification et du M. Filotas: Nous entendons ainsi la développement, de voir à ce que des sommes discussion à partir de deux systèmes de équivalentes au budget de recherche soient valeurs différents. Nous cherchons une consacrées au développement économique. formule de dialogue constructif avec le (21 h 15) Québec fondé sur le respect du peuple de la M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa région Kativik. langue).

M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: En ce qui concerne la mise langue). en application de nos politiques d'admi- nistration des ressources et autres qui M. Filotas: Les Inuits veulent se servir affectent notre comportement, les affaires du territoire de la région Kativik selon leurs inuites seront traitées avec toute la rigueur besoins. Il n'est pas question de miner le de la loi en ce qui concerne les délais des pouvoir du gouvernement du Québec. Nous réponses ministérielles. Ceci engendrera voulons toutefois atteindre notre autonomie l'évolution des principes de négociation qui régionale dans les plus brefs délais. Nous ont fondé la convention. Nous ouvrons donc B-9355 la porte au changement et à la modification M. Filotas: En ce qui touche la de certains aspects de la convention. constitution, nous insistons pour qu'elle nous garantisse la responsabilité pour la faune et M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa les autres ressources du territoire. langue). M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: Le gouvernement régional langue). doit pouvoir exercer, au nom de la province, tous les pouvoirs dont a besoin une M. Filotas: Retenons que la convention collectivité pour conserver, reproduire, a défini nos terres, nos titres et nos droits, mobiliser et mettre en valeur ses ressources. et nous a ainsi dépourvus de tout l'appareil culturel, politique et économique propre à M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa notre histoire. Concluons donc que le but du langue). chapitre 29 de la convention, s'il était de garantir le développement, se retrouve M. Filotas: Pour ce qui est de nos aujourd'hui devant le fait qu'il doit élaborer ressources humaines, nous voulons nous les modalités par lesquelles ce développement assurer que notre main-d'oeuvre sera en peut être réalisé par nos propres institutions. mesure de poursuivre un travail adapté aux besoins immédiats et futurs de la M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa collectivité. Étant responsable de la langue). planification et de la formation de la main- d'oeuvre, le gouvernement régional veillera à M. Filotas: Réforme des institutions l'intégration de la main-d'oeuvre inuite dans régionales. toutes les sphères de l'activité locale. En Les institutions inuites actuelles sont somme, notre politique de développement sur la courbe ascendante de leur évolution, veillera à l'amélioration des équipements, de c'est-à-dire que nous n'avons pas encore la technologie et de l'éthique du travail réalisé notre potentiel avec ces nouvelles propre au maintien et à l'évolution de notre structures. mode de vie. M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). langue). M. Filotas: Comme il y a un M. Filotas: Dans le but d'amorcer la dédoublement des responsabilités entre le coopération régionale ou provinciale, le gou- gouvernement central et le gouvernement vernement régional assumera l'ensemble des régional, nous ne pouvons pas administrer le responsabilités qui lui sont dévolues dans la Nord de façon efficace. L'administration convention et le gouvernement devra voir à régionale doit donc veiller à ce que des ce que les transferts de pouvoirs se fassent décisions favorables à la collectivité inuite dans des délais raisonnables, surtout en ce soient mises en application, en concertation qui concerne la main-d'oeuvre et l'économie. avec le peuple et les institutions du Nord. Cet esprit de concertation devra être ratifié M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa dans nos droits constitutionnels. langue). M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: Le gouvernement régional se langue). trouve présentement dans l'obligation d'établir, pour le printemps de l'année 1984, M. Filotas: La nature intrinsèque du une politique d'administration de la faune. gouvernement régional requiert une bonne Dans un effort de concertation soutenu avec part de subventions. Ainsi, en ayant, d'une la population et les institutions du Nord, en part, donné au Nord les pouvoirs en matière raison de l'urgence de la situation quant à de santé, de bien-être, d'éducation et de l'exploitation de la faune, nous établirons une main-d'oeuvre, d'aménagement du territoire, politique concernant l'exploitation du de développement économique, de justice et troupeau de caribous et ce, avant le mois de de police, il faudra aussi, aujourd'hui même, mars 1984. Cette politique devra nous élaborer les modalités de transfert de ces garantir un contrôle sur le site et le degré pouvoirs avec, bien sûr, les moyens financiers d'exploitation du troupeau de caribous. De appropriés. Le financement du gouvernement plus, nous concerterons nos efforts sur régional devra être à la mesure de ses l'orientation des activités commerciales et de responsabilités. subsistance, en ce qui regarde la chasse, la pêche et le piégeage. M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: II faudra, dans un esprit B-9356 d'ouverture totale, ne conserver au Code langue). civil du gouvernement central que les responsabilités plus efficacement exercées au M. Filotas: Au plan municipal, on centre ou absolument essentielles au maintien s'efforcera de décentraliser les fonctions de l'intégrité de l'État québécois. Laissez au dévolues au gouvernement régional, tout en gouvernement régional et à son assemblée lui accordant la faculté d'établir des normes d'institution nordique le pouvoir de formuler minimales dans tel ou tel secteur. Les et d'exécuter leurs propres politiques avec municipalités devront pouvoir se charger de l'ensemble des fonds déjà dépensés ici par toutes les tâches en éducation, affaires les deux gouvernements du Sud. Et que ces sociales, aménagement et développement, fonds soient répartis et indexés per capita et qu'il n'est pas absolument nécessaire qu'ils soient ainsi fondés sur un partage d'exécuter à l'échelle nationale. judicieux de responsabilités territoriales. (23 h 3D) M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). langue). M. Filotas: Ceci est le texte d'une M. Filotas: Cette formule de résolution qui a été adoptée. "Attendu que péréquation garantira aux Inuits... nous siégeons pour la première fois avec le nouveau conseil d'administration." M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: ...l'usufruit pour toujours des ressources du territoire, M. Filotas: "Attendu qu'il nous faut élaborer les mécanismes par lesquels nous M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa aborderons chacun des propos ci-haut." langue). M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa M. Filotas: ...une formule avantageuse langue). de développement économique pour le territoire... M. Filotas: Je m'excuse énormément, c'est ce qui arrive quand on se fie aux M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa traductions des autres, on ne sait pas où on langue). est rendu. Je recommence, les attendus du texte M. Filotas: ...et le pouvoir de se de cette résolution. gouverner eux-mêmes. Attendu que le gouvernement régional... Attendu que nous siégeons pour la M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa première fois avec le nouveau conseil, que langue). ceci est la première séance du nouveau conseil d'administration; M. Filotas: Ceci nous semble être une Attendu que nous devons élaborer les solution satisfaisante à l'éternel problème de mécanismes par lesquels notre projet nos droits et empêcherait une emprise énuméré ci-haut devait prendre corps"; excessive des fonctionnaires sur la dynamique "II est résolu par le conseil régional interne du gouvernement régional. Kativik d'endosser les déclarations qui précèdent comme étant sa politique de base M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa quant au développement socio-économique et langue). surtout par rapport au développement politique." M. Filotas: En tant que porte-parole de L'application de cette politique sera la région Kativik, le gouvernement régional basée sur... assurera une participation avec d'autres groupes autochtones quant à l'élaboration de M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa politiques concernant le milieu arctique. Sa langue). politique de développement cherchera à améliorer la qualité de vie matérielle, M. Filotas: Le renforcement des sociale et culturelle. Le détail d'une juridictions de l'administration régionale par politique régionale de développement visera des ordonnances. non seulement les méga-projets, l'énergie, le transport et les communications, mais visera M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa aussi le développement commercial, commu- langue). nautaire et social. M. Filotas: La concertation et la mise M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa en place d'une assemblée des institutions du B-9357

Nord. l'heure les commentaires, les réactions, les paroles du premier ministre, qui a dû mal- M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa heureusement partir. Je veux simplement, en langue). son nom, vous assurer que notre accueil, notre réaction à votre mémoire sera M. Filotas: Des audiences publiques de caractérisée par un esprit très positif. consultation. M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa inuite). langue). M. Lazure: Si on essaie d'extraire une M. Filotas: Le renforcement de tendance générale à l'intérieur de votre l'exécutif de l'administration régionale afin mémoire, il y a non seulement un désir de d'assurer la consultation au niveau commu- reprendre au maximum vos affaires en main, nautaire et afin de négocier des ententes mais aussi, si je comprends bien, une volonté dans les divers chapitres de juridiction de de réduire le plus possible la machine l'administration régionale Kativik. bureaucratique qui s'est développée depuis quelques années. M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue inuite). M. Filotas: En assurant que le CRD, le Conseil régional de développement Kativik, M. Lazure: Vous avez entendu comme jouisse de ses pouvoirs de concertation pour nous les représentants des communautés qui assurer le développement d'une politique n'ont pas adhéré à la convention de la Baie nordique. James nous exprimer aussi leurs revendications. Fondamentalement, je pense M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa que vos revendications se rejoignent quand langue). vous parlez des deux groupements, quand vous parlez d'autonomie régionale, quand M. Filotas: En nous concentrant sur vous parlez d'une plus grande autorité pour l'élaboration des modalités propres à la mise la conduite de vos propres affaires. en application du chapitre 29 de la Convention de la Baie James et du Nord M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue québécois. inuite).

M. Keleutak: (S'exprime dans sa M. Lazure: Vous avez aussi entendu la langue). réponse du premier ministre lorsqu'on lui a posé la question à savoir si le gouvernement M. Filotas: Et nous remercions, en du Québec était prêt à s'asseoir à une table terminant, tous ceux qui cherchent avec nous de discussion pour confier une autonomie la concertation dans le développement du régionale dans des domaines qui relèvent de Nord du Québec. vos communautés.

Le Président (M. Rancourt): Je M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue remercie M. Keleutak du mémoire et je inuite). donne la parole au ministre délégué aux Relations avec les citoyens. M. Lazure: Vous avez aussi entendu - et je veux terminer avec cette question - le M. Lazure: M. le Président, je veux premier ministre poser la question suivante remercier M. Keleutak pour sa présentation aux représentants qui vous ont précédés: et remercier tous ses collègues des Quelles sont les chances de rapprochement, différentes administrations municipales. J'ai quelles sont les chances de, graduellement, le plaisir de retrouver aussi certains amis dans un avenir prochain, mettre un terme à que j'avais rencontrés il y a quelques années cette division qui existe? Cette question qui lors d'une visite au Grand Nord. a été posée à vos prédécesseurs, si vous me le permettez... Soyez complètement à l'aise M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue d'y répondre ou de ne pas y répondre, mais inuite). je pense qu'il est de l'intérêt du gouver- nement aussi, afin de pouvoir voir plus clair M. Lazure: Vous demandez dans votre dans la situation que vous vivez quotidienne- mémoire au gouvernement de percevoir vos ment, d'obtenir votre propre réaction à cette revendications positivement. Je cite une question. En d'autres termes, la question partie de votre mémoire: recevoir vos reven- posée par M. Lévesque tout à l'heure, je dications positivement. vous la pose à vous: Quel est le climat Vous avez sans doute entendu tout à actuel, quelles sont les chances de rappro- B-9358 chement entre les deux groupes dissidents et vais les énumérer: pouvoirs d'administration conventionnés de la Baie James? locale, pouvoirs sur le transport et les (23 h 45) communications, la justice et la police, la M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue santé et le bien-être, l'éducation, le dévelop- inuite). pement économique, la protection de l'envi- ronnement, les ressources et la gestion du Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Charlie territoire - n'étaient que des pouvoirs d'un Watt. exécutant et non pas des pouvoirs de décision véritables. M. Watt (Charlie): (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue).

M. Filotas: Merci, M. le Président, M. Filotas: Alors, nous, les Inuits, avons messieurs les députés et tous ceux qui sont énormément discuté entre nous de ce ici présents. problème. À plusieurs reprises, nous avons même considéré et pensé à la nécessité de M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). quitter les négociations à cause de ce problème. Nous avons persisté, malgré nos M. Filotas: Plusieurs années ont passé réticences, dans cette direction parce que depuis que nous avons négocié la convention nous savions que, tôt ou tard, l'insuffisance, de la Baie James. Plusieurs aspects de cette ou la non-suffisance, ou la non-pertinence de convention n'ont pas été mis en application ces pouvoirs, de la façon que le gouverne- comme ils auraient du l'être. Nous sommes ment régional était organisé à ce moment, à contents d'avoir l'occasion et la chance de la longue, deviendrait évidente pour tout le vous parler de cette situation. monde.

M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue).

M. Filotas: Je veux revenir un peu en M. Filotas: Donc, nous sommes arrivés arrière pour parler de nos coutumes, de la à aujourd'hui et, pour en arriver là, nous façon dont nous avons procédé au moment sommes passés par beaucoup de difficultés. des négociations avec le gouvernement du Nous avons essayé beaucoup de choses; nous Québec, le gouvernement fédéral, la Société avons essayé de mettre en application ce que d'énergie de la Baie James et Hydro-Québec. vous nous avez dit d'essayer, mais avec maintes difficultés, entre autres, les M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). problèmes de financement et le manque d'argent pour accomplir le peu de pouvoirs M. Filotas: La première chose et la qu'on avait. Il est clair aujourd'hui que cette plus importante, c'est notre mandat, soit situation doit cesser. celui de mettre sur pied un véritable gouver- nement, un gouvernement intégral, avec tous M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). les pouvoirs nécessaires. C'était la raison de notre mandat. C'est cela qu'on a voulu M. Filotas: Donc, pour le moment, ce créer. que nous voulons faire entre nous, Inuits, habitants du Nouveau-Québec, c'est profiter M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). de l'occasion pour mettre un peu d'ordre dans notre demeure. Nous savons que nous ne M. Filotas: Certains d'entre vous pouvons faire cela en vous réclamant des doivent sûrement se souvenir - M. Ciaccia en choses, pour le moment, puisque cette mise particulier, puisque c'est avec lui que nous en ordre de notre demeure doit se faire, avons négocié dans le temps - que nous nous premièrement, entre nous. Nous devons faire sommes battus, que nous avons eu de graves cela afin de savoir où on veut aller au juste, différends au sujet du gouvernement régional comment nous voulons nous rendre là et ce à ce moment, car nous voulions mettre sur dont nous avons besoin. pied un véritable gouvernement, avec tous Il est clair que, plus tard, il va falloir les pouvoirs nécessaires de décision et que le gouvernement et nous, nous nous d'administration qu'un gouvernement intégral rencontrions et que nous fassions face à la doit avoir, non pas un gouvernement qui soit question de la création d'un gouvernement le simple bras d'exécution du gouvernement propre à nous. québécois. M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Donc, les membres du M. Filotas: Nous savions très bien à ce Conseil de Kativik ont pris la décision, de moment-là que les pouvoirs que l'on avait réunir, à la fin de janvier 1984, tous les donnés à ce gouvernement régional - et je organismes qui existent présentement au B-9359 nord, tous les organismes qui, présentement, the ITN that have shown their interest, se partagent et se tiraillent les pouvoirs et desire, and opened up the door for us, and les champs de responsabilités, non seulement made it smoother to stipulate what we have les organismes qui ont été créés pour les to say. Again I thank ITN once more. Inuits, mais tous les organismes au nord, afin This problem will not be the last one, que nous puissions entreprendre cette mise because - at least - what we would like to en ordre de notre demeure. Comment be able to accomplish in a very near future pouvons-nous créer un gouvernement véritable is a forum in such a way that people can dans la situation actuelle, alors qu'il y a discuss the issues and make decisions. This is présentement un tiraillement et un éparpille- what we are talking about in terms of ment d'efforts, d'énergies et d'intérêts au setting up a forum such as an Assembly for nord, avec la multiplication de tous les the Inuits, so that collectively we can organismes qu'on connaît. C'est seulement en discuss the matters, item by item if mettant de l'ordre là-dedans qu'on pourra en necessary. At least, we will be in the arriver à créer un gouvernement à nous. processus to think, in our own terms, that we have a better control of our own destiny. M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). I think this is very important to all of you and it is important to us too. Thank you M. Filotas: II y a, dans cette very much. entreprise, quelque chose de très difficile et qui ne sera pas résolu aussi facilement. Ce Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le phénomène dont je voudrais parler est déjà ministre du Loisir, de la Chasse et de la contenu dans la convention et le voici: il Pêche, vous avez demandé la parole. vise essentiellement à oeuvrer et essaie de prendre en considération deux champs très M. Chevrette: Au-delà des pouvoirs que difficilement conciliables pour le moment. vous recherchez, il y a des problèmes d'ordre Ces deux champs sont que certains pratique et à court terme. Vous administrez organismes doivent, à la fois, satisfaire les présentement le programme de support aux besoins, les aspirations des autochtones, chasseurs et trappeurs inuits. Vous recevez, tandis qu'en même temps, ils doivent aussi je crois, au-delà de 1 500 000 $ ou tout s'adresser à la population non autochtone. près, ce qui vous permet de payer par C'est un problème de taille, c'est un localité au moins un salaire plus un autre problème que nous, Inuits du Nouveau- par tranche de 100 personnes. Il y a des Québec, devons résoudre et auquel nous localités qui n'en bénéficient pas devrons trouver nous-mêmes les réponses. Si présentement. Vous avez la responsabilité de nous ne nous en occupons pas, nous ne la redistribution. Il n'en demeure pas moins voyons pas qui d'autre pourrait les résoudre qu'il y a des gens qui n'en bénéficient pas à ce moment-ci. présentement. Que conseillez-vous au (minuit) ministre, en termes de correctifs concrets, M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). pour cette situation concrète? Our translator is a bit tired; I might as well switch to english now. Basically what I am M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue saying: the remarks that we heard today inuite). from the Premier minister, the answers he has given to the dissident communities such M. Makiuic (Willie): (S'exprime dans sa as ITN were very much encouraging to hear langue). on our side, because this is one principle that we have tried to push forwards in order M. Filotas: Ces montants d'argent qui for the government authorities to have a sont mis à la disposition des communautés clear understanding of what we mean by inuites dans le cadre du programme de self-government. This has been going on for support pour les chasseurs, les pêcheurs et a number of years, I am sure you are quite les trappeurs, sont utilisés présentement par aware of that, and as a matter of fact it presque toutes les communautés sauf par une goes back to the early 1960's. One of the qui ne le fait pas par principe, parce qu'elle reasons why we did not come to accept the n'approuve pas la Convention de la Baie concept of regional government in the early James. Présentement, ce qui arrive, c'est 1960's is because there was a certain que ces montants destinés à cette uncertainty related to the constitutional communauté sont répartis entre les villages matters, which some of you, people, are qui bénéficient du programme. Ils se fully aware of and also related to the 1912 répartissent ces sommes dans un cadre de Extension Act. Because of the ethnic consultation avec les gens du Conseil aspects, it has to be sufficiently answered Kativik. La répartition est décidée par les according to the 1912 Extension Act with its appendix to, I believe, the Constitution of villages de concert avec le Conseil Kativik. Canada. M. Chevrette: Vous oubliez le conseil. I do appreciate and thank very much Je vous demandais un conseil... B-9360

Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Gordon. mémoire et compte tenu des résolutions que vous avez à la fin, que vous allez reproduire M. Chevrette: Un conseil pour corriger dans le gouvernement régional les structures cela. complexes du gouvernement central que vous condamnez, d'une certaine façon. Est-ce que M. Gordon (Mark R.): (S'exprime dans je me trompe ou si tel est le cas? sa langue). M. Filotas: Vous demandez s'ils veulent M. Filotas: Mark précise certaines reproduire les mêmes structures complexes? choses sur ce qui arrive quand ces sommes ne sont pas utilisées. Premièrement et avant Mme Lavoie-Roux: J'ai l'impression, à tout, on les offre aux communautés en la lecture de votre mémoire, que les question et, si elles refusent de s'en servir, structures complexes que vous avez on laisse ces sommes de côté pour toute une décrites... Maybe I can go on in English if it année au cas où, en cours de route, ces might make it easier to understand, because communautés changent d'idée. Une fois it is so late, you know. What I am saying is l'année terminée et une nouvelle année that, in the first page of your introduction, commencée, alors les villages viennent à you say that your culture was assailed by nous avec des suggestions et, suivant leurs foreign structures, very complex ones. You suggestions, ces sommes sont réparties entre are requesting that in certain fields like les villages qui, eux, utilisent ces sommes. health, education, police and justice, you do away with the powers of the central Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le structures, referring to the Québec député de Mont-Royal. Government ones. I think it is a legitimate request. But when I read your brief, I am M. Ciaccia: Merci, M. le Président. under the impression that your regional Avant que ma collègue, la députée de government - maybe it is a wrong perception L'Acadie, pose certaines questions à nos I am having - is reproducing the structures invités, je voudrais souhaiter la bienvenue that you are rejecting at the Québec level. aux membres de l'Administration régionale Kativik. Je vois parmi vous beaucoup de Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Charlie visages familiers. Il y a quelques années Watt. qu'on s'est vus, mais l'heure tardive de cette séance me rappelle les séances de M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). négociation qui continuaient tard dans la nuit. Cela me fait vraiment un grand plaisir M. Filotas: Non, ce n'est pas ce que de vous revoir, je sais que vous avez eu vous dites. Nous ne voulons pas recréer ces beaucoup de succès sur certains aspects de structures. C'est justement parce que nous l'entente, alors que d'autres aspects doivent sommes forcés de suivre les pratiques d'un être améliorés d'après l'expérience que vous gouvernement qui ne nous appartient pas que avez vécue. Je veux seulement vous dire que nous nous trouvons dans cette situation j'ai un plaisir particulier à vous revoir ce aujourd'hui. Ce n'est pas ce que nous soir et je vous souhaite encore plus de voulons. Nous voulons baser l'action et succès dans vos démarches, dans l'application l'organisation de notre gouvernement sur ce de l'entente et dans les relations que vous que les Inuits, sur ce que nos concitoyens avez avec le gouvernement et avec les sont capables de faire, sur ce qu'ils veulent différentes communautés du nord. faire et sur la façon dont ils veulent le faire. Il n'est pas question d'emprunter des M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue solutions et des institutions toutes faites. inuite). Nous savons très bien, par exemple, quel est le problème du service social. Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mme la Regardez, nous avons un service social qui députée de L'Acadie. suit exactement les modèles du Sud, qui (0 h 15) applique les principes de base, la philosophie Mme Lavoie-Roux: Je lis, dans votre du Sud de la personne humaine, des relations mémoire, que, dans un passé très récent, sociales, des solutions aux problèmes sociaux. votre culture a été assaillie par des Imaginez cette structure, ces pratiques structures étrangères très complexes. Vous appliquées chez nous. Pensez aux demandez, fort légitimement, que les conséquences de tout cela sur nos coutumes, pouvoirs qui sont présentement exercés par sur nos relations sociales, sur la famille des le pouvoir central touchant la santé, la Inuits. C'est un exemple flagrant qui se police, etc. soient désormais exercés répète dans tous les domaines. C'est pour uniquement par le gouvernement régional. cela que nous voulons, entre citoyens du Nouveau-Québec, trouver les solutions, les C'est l'introduction. C'est le deuxième structures et les moyens que nous jugeons paragraphe de l'introduction. J'ai la nécessaires. perception peut-être fausse, en lisant votre B-9361

Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mme la they can choose their priorities and not the députée de L'Acadie. priorities perceived by the bureaucracy in the South. We also need a mechanism of Mme Lavoie-Roux: If I do it in English, consultation for the general laws of it is to save you the translation in Inuit. application that continuously amend the You can do the other translation. nature of our regional government. Can I conclude, from what you are We also need a process to be able to explaining to us, that, if you had your own begin to change the regional government so regional government - not the type of that it answers more realistically the needs institutions that exists presently and that has of the people today because it is already been imposed to you by the actual central becoming out-dated. The people are government - an autonomous government, outgrowing this regional government day by then, you might find yourselves with other day. There are changes taking place in the types of establishments, institutions or region and the Agreement is supposed to be structures than the ones that are described able to be amended and to be changed. We in your brief? have to see this in order to make things a reality and to make this regional government Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mr. a real entity of the people. Gordon. As it is now perceived, it is merely an administrative link between us and the M. Gordon: I will answer in English to bureaucracy in the South. In the South, there save some time here. The regional are special northern sections in each government already contains within itself department. There is also a SAGMAI. All certain powers and, if you read the Kativik these we have to answer to and address. Regional Act, it is quite extensive compared When it comes time for negotiation of to other municipalities in the province. budgets, the budgets request are cut by the However, there is a process that we go bureaucracy before they get to the Treasury through in negotiating budgets. We may have Board. We are not given the opportunity for the powers written down in theory, but, the justification for our requests to the when it comes to the application, the money Treasury Board. We are not given a chance that we need to carry out, the funds, are to have an appeal to the Treasury Board. not that forthcoming. What happens is that What is decided is final at the time of the the budgets that we have to deal with with budget requests. the Québec Government must be dealt with department by department, in a very Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mme la piecemeal approach. What we would hope to députée de L'Acadie. see is a global budget negotiation that would enable us to have a certain amount of Mme Lavoie-Roux: I want to thank you. discretion between one program and another When you referred to some social services or so that we could make better improvements some laws, I know that the law on adoption, on this. Then, that would be a real exercise for instance, create problems for you and of our powers. the law on youth protection. I am sure there Every year, we have to face an army are laws or other dispositions, for instance, of civil servants from the South. If Mr. in terms of police and justice in general Lévesque says that we suffer from which do not correspond at all to your way professional parasites, I would advocate that of handling these particular problems. the Québec Government is probably twice as J'aimerais vous poser beaucoup d'autres itchy as we are. questions, mais je pense que vous avez déjà There is also another problem, and that répondu à plusieurs. Je peux vous assurer que is that there are no established mechanisms ces problèmes nous intéressent beaucoup et between ourselves and the Québec que les gens autour de cette table y sont Government when it comes to laws of sensibles. Est-ce que ceci fera bouger general application being put on the table, l'appareil gouvernemental ou le and amending the regional government's gouvernement? On devrait plutôt dire "les authority. These have not been dealt with gouvernements" parce que je suis sûre qu'il y uniformly. One law will be made to apply a aussi, du côté fédéral, des barrières ou des automatically to us, for whatever reason - règles qui vous sont imposées et qui ne that is not explained to us - and, in another correspondent vraiment pas à vos besoins et law, we will have an exemption and, again, à vos aspirations. Je peux vous assurer de for reasons we do not know or which were notre collaboration pour tenter, au moins de not given to us. corriger certaines de ces difficultés que vous There has to be mechanisms worked éprouvez avec le gouvernement. Le out, where the financing would be done on a gouvernement actuel étant ce qu'il est, je ne global basis, so that the people of the region veux pas en faire une question partisane; ce will have some discretion to be able to move pourrait être un autre gouvernement et ce funds from one program to another so that serait la même chose. Merci. That is hard to B-9362 translate. Excusez-moi. sains de corps et d'esprit, qui ne souffrent d'aucune infirmité, qui possèdent des Le Président (M. Rancourt): Est-ce que connaissances et des compétences, qui vous voulez traduire, M. Filotas? peuvent travailler et gagner leur vie de leurs mains. Mais parce qu'ils n'ont pas de M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue certificat de compétence, de carte de inuite). Qu'est-ce que vous avez dit ensuite? compétence, tel que requis par les lois du travail qui ont été érigées dans une contexte Mme Lavoie-Roux: J'en ai dit beaucoup. tout à fait différent, avec toutes les Je pense qu'on pourrait peut-être résumer en questions de syndicats dont vous êtes au disant qu'ils peuvent compter sur la courant, à cause de ces exigences, beaucoup sensibilisation des gens qui sont autour de de gens qui pourraient gagner leur vie d'une cette table pour que vos représentations ne façon honorable ne peuvent pas le faire, tombent pas dans l'oubli, mais qu'elles aient parce qu'ils ne peuvent pas accéder à des plutôt un suivi. postes. (0 h 30) Or, ces mêmes gens qui ne peuvent M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue plus aujourd'hui avoir de "job" habitent des inuite). maisons au Nord régies par le programme de la Société d'habitation du Québec. On vient Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Charlie d'ériger un système pour essayer de s'assurer Watt. que les gens vont payer leur loyer. N'oublions pas que ce sont des gens qui ne M. Watt: Just getting back to the peuvent pas avoir de "job", parce qu'ils n'ont social well-being of the people. (S'exprime pas de carte de compétence, mais ils doivent dans sa langue). payer le loyer. Après un premier avertissement, quand les loyers ne sont pas M. Filotas: Je vais vous donner en payés, on coupe l'eau. En deuxième lieu, guise d'exemple quelque chose qui existe après avoir coupé l'eau, on coupe présentement, et vous pourrez voir comment, l'électricité. Vous savez que les fournaises dans le domaine du service social, les choses ont des brûleurs électriques, des moteurs ne sont pas correctes et même, on pourrait électriques et qu'il fait très froid dans le dire, des injustices sont créées. Nord. Vous devez connaître les conséquences de la coupure d'électricité. Une fois l'eau et l'électricité coupées, on met le bonhomme, M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). qui n'a pas de "job" parce qu'il n'a pas de M. Filotas: Ce que Charlie dit est la carte de compétence et qu'il ne peut pas chose suivante: Dans l'histoire de n'importe payer son loyer, dehors. C'est la procédure quelle société sur la surface de la terre, les que nos gouvernements locaux doivent gens n'ont pas une compétence toute faite appliquer pour nos concitoyens. Pensez-vous dès le début pour accomplir ce qu'ils que cela a du sens? veulent; il y a des compétences qui ne s'acquièrent qu'à longue haleine. Vous-mêmes, M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). ici, c'est-à-dire les Québécois, vous avez votre gouvernement. Vous avez la M. Filotas: Avec cet exemple - cela compétence, en tant que peuple, d'avoir un s'applique à d'autres domaines aussi - nous gouvernement, de diriger vos affaires, croyons fermement que nous sommes d'établir vos priorités, de prendre vos capables de trouver des solutions plus justes, décisions; mais cette compétence-là, vous ne plus intelligentes et plus humaines à ce l'avez pas toujours eue. Ce que nous vous genre de problème. demandons aujourd'hui, c'est de regarder les Inuits dans la même perspective: eux aussi M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). sont en train d'acquérir cette expérience, ce certificat de compétence, pour diriger leurs M. Filotas: II paraît que c'est une propres affaires. C'est ainsi que nous vous pratique qui se fait depuis un certain temps. demandons, à travers ces lunettes de Moi-même, je ne l'ai appris que très l'histoire, de regarder les Inuits. récemment. J'ai été abasourdi. Avec le manque de logements qui existe dans le Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Charlie Nord, un individu qui se fait mettre dehors Watt. de sa maison, où va-t-il demeurer?

M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le député de Viger. M. Filotas: Puisque nous sommes à parler du certificat de compétence, il y a un M. Maciocia: M. le Président, j'ai une autre phénomène que je voudrais signaler à question à poser à M. Watt ou à quelqu'un la commission. Il y a présentement des gens d'autre de la délégation. J'aimerais savoir B-9363 s'il y a eu des rencontres ou des pourparlers justice and, according to that, you could avec le groupe dissident pour faire un even name your own judges. You have social éventuel front commun vis-à-vis du gouver- services, health, economic development which nement du Québec pour avoir cette can take in a series of things. You have the autonomie politique dont a parlé tantôt le environment, resources and management of groupe des dissidents; deuxièmement, si lands. You really have, if the powers that go l'autonomie politique telle que perçue par le with these titles would be given to you by groupe dissident est la même pour le groupe Québec, you have the structure. So, isn't - I des Inuits qui sont en face de nous know people are very tired. We do not want actuellement. to continue the discussion too long but just - Isn't that really the problem? The structure Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Filotas. is there plus the other problems, the other laws. In 1974, we did not have a crazy law M. Filotas: (S'exprime dans la langue like the OCQ which would not let people inuite). work who had the ability to work. What can you do? We are not in power now. So, we Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Charlie will have to change that when we get back Watt. in. But, isn't that the real problem? You M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). have got the regional Government, if they give you the budget, if they give you the M. Filotas: Charlie répond ceci: Oui, powers plus an assurance that, before cela fait longtemps que les Inuits du another law would apply to the regional Nouveau-Québec, de tous les villages, parlent Government, it would be with the consent of de cette idée de s'ériger un gouvernement à the regional Government. Is not that really eux. Les discussions qui ont eu lieu dans le the solution that you are looking for? Nord remontent même aux années soixante. Cette idée date de cette époque et c'est la M. Watt: (S'exprime dans sa langue). même idée encore aujourd'hui. Ce n'est pas une idée neuve. Je voudrais que vous sachiez Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Charlie ceci: Si les problèmes qui existent Watt. présentement au Nord ne trouvent pas leurs moyens de résolution par la voie de ce que M. Watt: It is fine for all of us to say nous et les gens du Inuit Tungavingat that, yes, we two are satisfied with the Nunamini voulons mettre sur pied, je vous structure, but, if you only look at the assure que dans très peu de temps nos mains structural side of it, the structural aspect in seront remplies de problèmes et que nous some ways is going to have to be modified allons être débordés par les conséquences in order to relate more to the territory we néfastes de cette situation. represent. I also would like to say that when you Le Président (M. Rancourt): Je vous look at only the substance, the principal remercie. M. le député de Mont-Royal. concepts of the powers, it is easy to say that, yes we do have those powers. But, M. Ciaccia: I just want to thank the when you start examining the fine points of Kativik Regional Government members. I just the conditions and how far the power goes, want to say one thing to Charlie. You that is something else all together different. mentioned originally that, when the And it goes beyond that too, Mr. negotiations were going on, you wanted a Ciaccia, that, when the regional Government regional government in the true sense of the concept was extracted from the Agreement, word, and I remember exactly the kind of put into a specific piece of legislation, the discussions that we had. Perhaps, what we Act itself came out of that. But, if you take both did, we did indirectly what many did a good look at both of the Agreement that not want us to do directly, because, if you deal with the functions and responsibility and recall, they just did not want to hear at all the powers attached to it and if you take a about any kind of regional government. So look at the Act itself, the two do not we finally arrived at this formula. But would match. it not be exact to say that it is not really the formula that you have now that is M. Ciaccia: They should. Then, we wrong? should amend the law to conform to the (0 h 45) Agreement. That is what you are telling us. I think Mark put his finger on it. It is the budgets and the interference from M. Watt: This is what we are talking Québec because the powers have been given about. Hopefully, not too long from now, in to you in this Agreement. You have a month or two months from now, we will education, you have a local administration, be able to outline the policies in that transport and communications, you have direction that we want to contemplate and, B-9364 then, from that basis we will be putting M. Ciaccia: Well, maybe the Premier forward the changes that we want you to could have stayed here this evening and make. We want the Government of Québec listen to you instead of just making pious to make them in relation to the Act and promises about political or regional plus the changes that have to be made autonomy. I think he would have heard you related to the Agreement. and maybe we could have gotten some firm One other thing too, I would like to go commitments into the actual structures that on just to expand a little bit. We have no exist now. That would have been much more intention opening up the Convention as such, useful than grandstanding on regional we would like to deal with them section by autonomy within Québec. section. When you open up the whole Convention, you know what it means, that Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le everybody will be wanting to take a piece ministre délégué aux Relations avec les out of it. So, we are not prepared to take citoyens. that risk. We would like to deal with them section by section, when we come forward M. Lazure: J'allais me réjouir de with some recommendations. l'atmosphère de la séance de cette commission jusqu'à ce que le député de M. Ciaccia: Very wise. Mont-Royal, encore une fois, tombe dans une ornière très partisane. Je pensais qu'il s'était Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mr. Gordon. guéri depuis quelques heures...

M. Gordon: Just to explain a little Mme Lavoie-Roux: M. le Président, une bit. I think that, in the area of education, question de règlement. this is the best place where it is illustrated, the question of lack of resources Le Président (M. Rancourt): S'il vous to be able to carry out these powers. The plaît, s'il vous plaît. Kativik School Board is given the authority to be able to develop its own curriculum and M. Lazure: Non, on ne va pas faire une all of this. question de règlement là. So, the way that the Government of Québec now deals with it is that you get the Le Président (M. Rancourt): S'il vous same curriculum development that any other plaît. school is entitled to and you can use the central services that are provided here in Mme Lavoie-Roux: Bien oui, mais Québec City. écoutez. Non, mais... Basically, what has been happening in the area of curriculum development, which is Le Président (M. Rancourt): Mme la very much needed to develop our own députée de L'Acadie. instruction in our own languages and culture, is that there is no real money going into Mme Lavoie-Roux: ...ça fait quand that area. That is one area where we have même partie des procédures de cette clear authority over and above the Minister, Assemblée. but we have no money, not one penny is given in addition to cover that area. What Le Président (M. Rancourt): S'il vous they tell us is, well, we should use the plaît, madame. M. le ministre. Il y a eu une central services provided in Québec City, not opinion. one person in Québec City central services speaks Inuttituuit. That is one problem. M. Lazure: Alors, M. le Président... Another problem is that we ended up having to use the funds we got to train our Mme Lavoie-Roux: Bien, c'est une Inuttituuit instructors to develop some accusation qu'on a faite, M. le Président. curriculum. So, we are having to do this now. I think this is only one illustration of Le Président (M. Rancourt): Je how this problem works. It goes on and on m'excuse, M. le ministre, allez-y. into other areas. There is always somebody in the South second guessing what our M. Lazure: M. le Président, je ne fais decisions are. Once that second guessing is aucune accusation, je dis que l'atmosphère done, the budgets are set in Québec City avait été jusqu'ici de nature non partisane. with no appeal; we do not even know if our Le sujet que nous discutons ne devrait pas reasons were given to the Treasury Board. provoquer ce genre de remarques. Je referme And then, once the budgets are set, they are la parenthèse. with very very strict guide-lines; it has to Je veux remercier la délégation qui est be spent exactly in that manner, as dirigée par M. Josepie Keleutak. Je veux prescribed by the Department. It is carved in remercier le conseil de l'Administration stone, we cannot move. régionale Kativik. Lorsque le premier B-9365 ministre a pris l'engagement, ce soir, problèmes qui ont été décrits. Nous avons, d'entrer en discussion, lorsque vous serez depuis deux jours, admis l'existence de ces prêts - à votre demande, l'ensemble du problèmes très réels. Je vais laisser peuple inuit - lorsqu'il a pris cet engagement l'interprète, peut-être, traduire ou je vais me de modifier l'ensemble de nos relations, de traduire en anglais, si vous le permettez. manière que vous puissiez obtenir une I was saying that we have listened to autonomie régionale, cet engagement, ce you very carefully. We recognize that the n'était pas pour la galerie, c'était sérieux, problems that you have raised are real c'était un engagement ferme. problems, whether they are related to budget approval or to the lack of collaboration in M. Ciaccia: M. le Président... such and such a ministry. We admit that you have these problems. We have taken notes; I Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le do not think you expect us to go into the député de Mont-Royal. details in trying to give an answer on each one of the problems which you have raised. I M. Ciaccia: ...je veux juste rectifier do not think that this is the purpose of this quelque chose. Pour le gouvernement actuel, committee. être non partisan, cela veut dire ne jamais We do have taken notes. We will rien dire. Je ne suis pas partisan, j'essaie de convey these situations to the Ministry of faire voir au gouvernement comment il Housing and to the Ministry of Education, devrait appliquer la convention. Mais, si vous and to the various ministries with whom you voulez qu'on soit ici pour être des perroquets have problems currently. To go back to the et appuyer le gouvernement dans toutes les main objectives of these discussions which, I sottises qu'il dit et dans toute la partisanerie think, is to find ways of simplifying the qu'il fait... budget approval procedures, obviously, not only in your own estimation, you do not have Le Président (M. Rancourt): S'il vous enough money, but also, and perhaps even plaît, M. le député de Mont-Royal. M. le more important, is the lack of adequate député de Mont-Royal... communication and speedy decisions. This current year, I understand that you have a M. Ciaccia: Bien écoutez, il y a total budget of 72 000 000 $, of which toujours une limite. Québec pays approximately 53 000 000 $. You find that this is not enough, and you, Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le most likely, can make a good case that this is not enough. député de Mont-Royal, je m'excuse. I would like to conclude in saying that M. Lazure: M. le Président, j'ai bien this agreement, on which both parties have entendu le député de Mont-Royal accuser le agreed - and this is what I meant by "non premier ministre d'avoir fait du partisan approach" - we are both committed "grandstanding". to implementing and improving it. This agreement has been in existence for several M. Ciaccia: Oui, oui. years now, and it is just normal that it should be revised. All we are saying to you M. Lazure: C'est cette expression que is that, in this spirit of improving the vous avez utilisée. Agreement, we will be expecting concrete suggestions from you and, hopefully, not only M. Ciaccia: Exactement et je le redis from the Regional administration, but from encore. the whole totality of the Inuit community of the North. M. Lazure: Bon. Thank you.

Le Président (M. Rancourt): S'il vous Le Président (M. Rancourt): Une plaît. À l'ordre, à l'ordre! dernière intervention, peut-être? M. Ciaccia: II aurait dû être ici pour M. Watt: Unfortunately, it is late. Our écouter les problèmes que... interpreter is tired. Le Président (M. Rancourt): À l'ordre, M. Filotas: Un bref sommaire, M. s'il vous plaît. Lazure, s'il vous plaît, de ce que vous venez de dire. M. Ciaccia: ...ces gens-là ont. Une voix: Translate what you have just Le Président (M. Rancourt): À l'ordre, said. s'il vous plaît. M. le ministre. M. Filotas: In Inuttituuit. M. Lazure: Nous avons écouté les B-9366

M. Watt: Yes. Unfortunately, I do not supposed to be 53 000 000 $ - the point is know French. that we have to dissociate this constantly from the other investments for M. Lazure: You have done it before. capitalization. This is strictly operating You can. budgets. Now, we also agree that a good part of M. Gordon: (S'exprime dans sa langue). that money could be better spent if there Is that about everything, Georges? I was more regional authority - we agree with summed it up. you - if there was less structure, if there was less bureaucracy; we agree with you on M. Filotas: I would not have done it that. And we will be quite happy to sit down better. and receive the fruits of your discussions with your own people. And I think, this Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. Charlie evening, both groups we have heard have Watt. given rise to very fruitful discussions. (1 heure) M. Watt: Mr. Chairman... And again cut Le Président (M. Rancourt): Would you down the translation. (S'exprime dans sa give us your name, please? langue). The 72 O00 000 $ that you mentioned, I believe that was related to a Une voix: Paulosie Padlayat. transfer of agreement between the Federal and the Provincial Governments and applied Le Président (M. Rancourt): Pardon? M. for nine years. And the 53 000 000 $, which Padlayat. Mary Simon stated very clearly in her presentation yesterday, that is related to the M. Padlayat (Paulosie): (S'exprime dans catch-up programs, it seems a lot of money sa langue). looking at it strictly by numbers. But you have to understand that during the whole M. Filotas: II est souhaitable que la stretch of negotiations, programs that were prochaine fois on puisse se réunir à un autre normally provided for by the Department of moment qu'en pleine nuit. Indian Affairs were being cut back. So, for seven years the gradual cut back was taking M. Padlayat: (S'exprime dans sa langue). place, while our communities were getting behind. That is one of the reasons why it M. Filotas: Je vais parier de trois seems a lot of money; but it still does not problèmes, de trois phénomènes qui sont à la meet the whole needs of the North. We do source de beaucoup de problèmes. not feel secure in the sense of having Premièrement, les problèmes de financement enjoyment, or having an access to the same ou plus précisément de manque de as everybody else in Canada. financement; deuxièmement, l'incapacité de I would like to go a little bit beyond mettre en application la convention telle that too, Mr. Chairman. I believe that there qu'elle existe; trosièmement, les insuffisances is a 6 000 000 $ capital budget money that mêmes de la convention. has been in a sort of stalemate for the last four years. I can also remember the time M. Padlayat: (S'exprime dans sa langue). when the Department of Indian Affairs had the sole responsibility: the capital budget M. Filotas: Entre autres, la Convention money - that was about seven years ago - de la Baie James nous donnait des pouvoirs, was of 6 000 000 $. But now, we are à nous de l'Administration régionale Kativik, dealing with half that money, and a few sur la police et l'administration de la justice years have passed. I do not expect anybody au Nord, devait aussi nous permettre to understand the actual implication and d'entreprendre la formation de policiers detail side of it but we, too, really have régionaux, mais, jusqu'à présent, ces choses problems. We do not expect you to respond n'ont pu être mises en application. to them immediately; but we cannot leave it alone for a long period of time. M. Padlayak: (S'exprime dans sa langue). Le Président (M. Rancourt): M. le ministre. M. Filotas: Présentement, nous avons dans les villages du Nouveau-Québec des M. Lazure: Very briefly, the policiers locaux qui ont été formés dans les 53 000 000 $ coming from the Québec écoles de police du Sud et qui mettent en finances is strictly for operating budgets, not pratique des méthodes policières qui ne investment budgets. This is the yearly relèvent et ne jaillissent pas de nos disbursement for the fiscal year 1983-1984. coutumes. Cette situation n'est pas Whether it is 52 000 000 $, or souhaitable, car nous avons nos propres 51 000 000 $, or 56 000 000 $ - it is coutumes qui ne sont pas pareilles aux B-9367 vôtres. Nous croyons que nos coutumes aussi terminé cette réflexion, nous pourrions nous doivent être prises en considération quand on asseoir avec vous, les gens du gouvernement, parle de l'administration de la justice et de pour décider de quelle façon ce gouverne- la police. ment pour le territoire du Nouveau-Québec pourrait être mis sur pied. M. Padlayat: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Padlayat: (S'exprime dans sa langue). M. Filotas: Étant donné cette situation, nous, du conseil de Kativik, allons M. Filotas: Nous voulons que vous entreprendre de créer une véritable force sachiez que nous n'essaierons pas de faire policière du Nord. Nous allons faire les quoi que ce soit derrière le dos du gouver- règlements nécessaires afin que cette force nement du Québec. Nous ne voudrions pas policière puisse agir et administrer la justice que vous vous mettiez à avoir des réticences d'une façon convenable au Nord. et des peurs à notre égard. Cela sera fait ouvertement et je suis sûr qu'une fois cette M. Padlayat: (S'exprime dans sa langue). réflexion accomplie nous serons capables de nous asseoir et de discuter d'une façon M. Filotas: Encore plus spécifiquement, productive de ces choses-ci. au sujet de l'administration de la justice, nous voulons dire qu'à la façon dont les M. Padlayat: (S'exprime dans sa langue). choses se passent présentement la justice appliquée au Nord fait complètement défaut. M. Filotas: Merci beaucoup de nous Par exemple, vous savez que les juges du avoir donné la chance de parler ici. Sud vont au Nord pour étudier les causes, rendre des jugements et imposer des Le Président (M. Rancourt): Je sentences. Or, le concept de punition ou de remercie les gens de l'Administration rétribution par amende n'est pas quelque régionale Kativik de leur présence ici, ce chose qui vient de nos coutumes et cela n'a soir, et je leur souhaite bonne nuit. Nos aucun sens pour nos coutumes. Alors, on travaux sont ajournés à ce matin, 10 heures. voudrait que l'administration de la justice puisse être plus adaptée à la réalité de chez (Fin de la séance à 1 h 16) nous.

M. Padlayat: (S'exprime dans sa langue).

M. Filotas: De la même façon aussi à propos des services sociaux, les gens qui appliquent présentement le service social chez nous ne sont pas des gens qui partagent notre culture. Ils ne la connaissent pas et ne connaissent pas les conséquences de leurs actes. Alors, on voudrait encore dans ce domaine mieux adapter la pratique aux exigences du contexte nordique.

M. Padlayat: (S'exprime dans sa langue).

M. Filotas: Pourtant, sur cette même question, nous, qui connaissons nos concitoyens et nos coutumes, pourrions très facilement et d'une façon très efficace nous occuper des problèmes sociaux, mais nous sommes empêchés de le faire encore par cette histoire de compétences: des compétences nécessaires et exigées par les lois qui viennent d'ailleurs.

M. Padlayat: (S'exprime dans sa langue).

M. Filotas: Alors, ce que je viens de mentionner, ce ne sont que des exemples pour nous, les habitants du Nouveau-Québec. À ce moment-ci, il est clair que ce que nous devons faire, c'est nous réunir ensemble pour discuter comment nous allons mettre de l'or- dre chez nous. Une fois que nous aurons