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’ Pug nacious Com ics Fan zine JOJOEE GGIIEELL LALA THE FELLA WHO INKED DC’S SILVER AGE! (AND SOME GOLDEN AGE , TOO!) $6.95 In the USA No. 52 September 2005

ALSO: JAY SCOTT PIKE & MARTIN THALL ] . s c i m o C C D 5 0 0 2 © & M T s r e t c a r a h C ; a l l

e PPLLUUSS:: i G e o J 5 0 0 2 © t r A [ Vol. 3, No. 52 / September 2005 ™ Editor Roy Thomas Associate Editors Bill Schelly Jim Amash Design & Layout Christopher Day Consulting Editor John Morrow FCA Editor P.C. Hamerlinck Comic Crypt Editor Michael T. Gilbert Editors Emeritus (founder) Ronn Foss, Biljo White, Production Assistant Eric Nolen-Weathington Cover Artist Contents Cover Colorist Tom Ziuko Writer/Editorial: “For He’s A Jolly Good Giella…” ...... 2 And Special Thanks to: “Joe Giella Is Like Fine Wine—He Gets Better With Age!” ...... 3 Heidi Amash Thomas C. The man who inked DC’s Silver Age, and lots more besides—interviewed by Jim Amash. Michael Ambrose Lammers Ger Apeldoorn Mark Luebker Bob Bailey Boyd Magers “Comic Artists Could Draw Better Than Anybody in the World!” . . . 33 Mike W. Barr Dan Makara 1950s-70s artist Jay Scott Pike speaks with Jim A. about his years at Marvel & DC. Bob Maison Alberto Becattini Joe Marek “I Was All Over The Place, And Enjoying Every Minute Of It!” . . . 46 Philippe Benoist Martin Thall tells Mr. A. all about drawing comics in the 1940s and ’50s. Bill Black Matt Moring Dominic Bongo Frank Motler Ray Bottorff, Jr. Mark Muller Comic Crypt: Remembering Will – Part Three ...... 57 Steve Brumbaugh Jose Carlos Neves Michael T. Gilbert’s long association with —and The Spirit. Jerry K. Boyd Bob Cherry Jake Oster Shaun Clancy John G. Pierce “Do The Best Damn Work Possible” ...... 63 James Clink Jay Scott Pike defines the ever-shifting goals of 1940s artists. Dwight Decker Donald A. Rex Gerry Desrosiers Emir Ribeiro Ethan Roberts ATalk With Writer, Educator, &Comics Fanatic Glen Johnson: Part Two . 65 Al Dellinges Herb Rogoff A prominent 1960s comics fan talks to Bill Schelly about and more. Roger Dicken Steven Rowe & Wendy Hunt Luiz Antonio re: [comments, correspondence, & corrections] ...... 71 Michael Feldman Sampaio Shane Foley Mark Shainblum Snyder In Memoriam: Al Kurzrok & Paul Cassidy ...... 78 John Gentil Frank Giella Marc Swayze Joe Giella Martin Thall FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America ) #110 ...... 81 Janet Gilbert P.C. Hamerlinck presents Marc Swayze, some Fawcett-to-Charlton footnotes, and a Brazilian Matt Gore encounter between Captain Marvel & The ! Alex Toth Arnie Grieves Jim Vadeboncoeur, About Our Cover: Jumpin’ Joe Giella drew this brand new cover especially for this issue of George Hagenauer Jr. Alter Ego , spotlighting the three DC super-heroes with which he’s most closely identified, and a Jennifer Dr. Michael J. trio of their most dastardly enemies. For the full story behind this knockout illo, see p. 19—and Hamerlinck Vassallo to learn who christened him “Jumpin’ Joe Giella,” turn to p. 28. Three guesses, and the first two Paul Handler Delmo Walters, Jr. Mark Heike Hames Ware don’t count! [Art ©2005 Joe Giella; characters TM & ©2005 DC Comics.] Dave Herring Robert Wiener Above: And thanks to Joe yet again, for sending us this splendid illo of the hero he says he most Jonathan Ingersoll Tom Wimbish enjoyed drawing (or even just inking). [Art ©2005 Joe Giella; TM & ©2005 DC Comics.] Glen Johnson Jackie Wolf- Henry R. Kajawa Enrione Alter Ego TM is published monthly by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Sam Kujava Rodrigo M. Zeidan Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA. Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: [email protected]. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Single issues: $8 ($10 Canada, $11.00 elsewhere). Twelve-issue subscriptions: $60 US, $120 Canada, $132 elsewhere. All characters are © their This issue is dedicated to the memories of respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM of Roy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in Canada. Paul Cassidy & Al Kurzrok FIRST PRINTING. 2 writer /editorial “For He’s A Jolly Good Giella...”

ctually, despite the irresistible pun above (well, irresistible to intrigued us. Besides which, there was that offbeat “Dolphin” one-shot A me , anyway), this issue is a triple-decker in terms of interviews, he wrote and drew for DC in the late 1960s, whose circumstances are A covering a wide spectrum of comics from the 1940s through at related herein. least the 1970s. And Martin Thall spent most of his decade in the comics field When Jim Amash and I confer by phone about all the material that’s working for just about everybody except DC, and likewise has some stacking up in our drawers and PC files for Alter Ego —a considerable great yarns to spin. portion of which, of course, consists of the great interviews he does with comic book artisans of the Golden and Silver Ages—we occasionally get So settle back and enjoy a well-rounded issue. DC—Timely/Marvel— just this side of depressed when we think about how long some of it has —Hillman—ACG—Lev Gleason—MikeRoss—even sat on the cyberspace shelf, awaiting a berth in an actual issue of the Fawcett (and not just in the always-fascinating FCA section, either)— mag. you’ll learn something about all those four-color dream factories, and the artists and writers and editors who kept them humming. Recently we decided that, this month, along with an already- scheduled long interview with inking legend Joe Giella, we’d see if we All that—plus Bill Schelly talking to 1960s comics fan Glen Johnson could squeeze in a couple of shorter confabs, as well. Since so much of about Russ Manning, Pete Morisi, et al.—Michael T. Gilbert’s visit with Joe’s career is bound up with DC Comics, from the Golden Age Will Eisner—and letters from talents as diverse as Alex Toth and Shelly through the Silver and Bronze (whatever precisely that is), despite his (“”) Moldoff—should make this issue of A/E worth any earlier and later work for Marvel, we wanted to complement his comic fan’s money. interview with a pair of shorter ones, featuring folks more identified Okay, so maybe we had to start asking you for $1 more of it per with other companies and characters. issue… but we’re determined to earn it! And the subscription price Jay Scott Pike certainly fit the bill—for, even though he became a hasn’t gone up a penny! mainstay of DC’s romance department in the 1960s, his well-crafted Bestest, work for Timely/Marvel’s adventure titles in the 1950s particularly CCOOMMIINNGG IINN OOCCTTOOBBEERR #53 DRACULA! FRANKENSTEIN! ! It’s Our HELLZAPOPPIN’ HALLOWEEN ISSUE! • Direful all-new Dracula cover! • Three Decades of Dracula—and Counting! Artist DICK GIORDANO , writer ROY THOMAS , & editor MARK BEAZLEY rap about the 1974-2005 dark genesis of Marvel’s undead Halloween hit Stoker’s Dracula ! With behind-the-scenes stories and art! • DICK BRIEFER ’s funny Frankenstein of the 1950s! A never-before-seen completely- illustrated story from that awesome artist’s proposed newspaper strip! • Our Gallery of Gruesomeness! A hunk of Halloween comic art by , , , , STEVE BISSETTE, MICHAEL W. KALUTA, , , , , ERNIE SCHROEDER, ESTEBAN MAROTO, , and others! • Fabled Golden/Silver Age MIKE ESPOSITO on his 1940s-50s work with peerless partner ROSS ANDRU on Mr. Mystery, Mr. Universe, Get Lost, Up Your Nose, etc.— with more amazing anecdotes than you can shake a Styx at—in the first part of a 2-tier interview by JIM AMASH ! • Plus— FCA with MARC SWAYZE, JERRY DeFUCCIO, et al.— BILL SCHELLY on “1966— the Year of the Three Comicons!”— MICHAEL T. GILBERT ’s Comic Crypt on Little Lulu (pretty scary, huh, kids?) —& MORE!! [Art ©2005 Dick Giordano; Marvel Dracula TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.] Edited by ROY THOMAS SUBSCRIBE NOW! Twelve Issues in the US: $60 Standard, $96 First Class (Canada: $120, Elsewhere: $132 Surface, $180 Airmail). NOTE: IF YOU PREFER A SIX-ISSUE SUB, JUST CUT THE PRICE IN HALF! TwoMorrows. Bringing New Life To Comics Fandom. TwoMorrows • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA • 919-449-0344 • FAX: 919-449-0327 • E-mail: [email protected] • www.twomorrows.com 3 “JOE GIELLA Is Like Fine Win e ––He Gets Better With Age!” The Man Who Inked DC’s Silver Age—& Part Of The Golden Age, To Boot! Interview Conducted by Jim Amash Transcribed by Tom Wimbish

his year marks Joe Giella’s 60th in the comic book industry— TT and we want to offer our congratulations to him (and to the industry) right up front! Joe was one of the most important of DC Comics’ Silver Age. Joe’s slick, clean line graced the graphite etchings of many great pencilers, from Alex Toth to , , , and beyond. Luckily for us, Joe tells us about the people he inked as well as what their pencil work was like—and the editors he worked for. From Hillman to Timely/Marvel to DC to his newspaper strip work on Gordon , , Batman , and , we also find out about Joe’s other non-comics work, showing just how diverse his talents run. There’s a lot to the Joe Giella story, and we’ve tried to cover the bases as best we could. Joe’s been long overdue for coverage in Alter Ego , and thanks to Berndt Toast Gang buddy Joe Giella & Friends (who’s helped me out more times than I can count), we’re finally able (Left:) Joe (in light jacket and dark shirt) hangs out a few years back with to remedy that situation. Thanks for sharing, fellas—and a special (l. to r.) “Archie” artist Joe Edwards, DC editor Julie Schwartz, and Joe’s son Frank. thanks to Joe for delineating some of the best DC stories of my (Right:) Joe must like these guys, too, ’cause he keeps drawing ’em! We childhood—and for being a good friend. —Jim. suspect you may recognize them. [Art ©2005 Joe Giella; characters TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]

“You’ll Never Make A Living Doing Artwork!” and I wish my mother had kept some of them. [ laughs ] The Batman JIM AMASH: Okay, Joe—you get to answer my usual first questions. was my favorite—I felt he had the best-looking costume—but I really When and where were you born, and when did you know you liked the characters: , The Human wanted to be an artist? Torch, and Sub-Mariner.

JOE GIELLA: I was born June 27, 1928, in , New York. I JA: Why did you prefer them? have three brothers and a sister, and I was the oldest. My love for art GIELLA: As a kid, you fantasize about being The Human Torch or began in the late 1930s, when I was about 13 years old. We didn’t have Sub-Mariner... you feel like you’re that character. You live within that any drawing pads at the time, so I’d draw on anything I could get my character. I couldn’t wait for the issues to come out. I loved those hands on. My mother would come home from the grocery store, and I’d characters. tear apart the bags and draw on both sides of them. I would draw every - thing—I’d doodle cartoons, you name it. And of course, my teachers JA: So who were some of your classmates at the School of Industrial were constantly chastising me because I would sketch all over my books, Arts that we would remember today? and my parents were notified many times. I just liked to draw! GIELLA: Well, —Tony Bennett the singer, who lived on my I was influenced by ’s , , and Alex block—Al Scaduto—Emilio Squeglio—Paul Winchell, the ventrilo - Raymond’s . I was also reading comic books at the time, quist—and Rudy LaPick. Rudy had a great sense of humor, but I didn’t 4 The Man Who Inked DC’s Silver Age

The Marvel Mystery Tour “As a kid, you fantasize about being The Human Torch or Sub-Mariner ,” Joe recalls. He was eleven when The Human Torch roasted a police car’s tires in Marvel Mystery Comics #2 (Dec. 1939), and when Prince commandeered the Statue of Liberty in #7 (May 1940)—with art and story by creators and Bill Everett, respectively. That’s what we call getting in on the ground floor! Thanks to Robert Wiener for beautiful photocopies of the former page; the latter is reproduced from photocopies of the original art. [©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.] hang out much with him. Tony Bennett—his real name is Anthony and I was the oldest, so I left high school three months before I would deBennedetto—we used to hang out with him on Ditmars Boulevard in have graduated. Astoria. We used to buy him hot dogs. Ditmars was the last stop in Astoria on the IRT line, and that’s where we hung out. Ed Cronin was a very nice gentleman; he spent a lot of time coaching me through my first job. I was a little nervous, but he put me at ease, I never met Paul Winchell personally. He was a few years ahead of us and by the time I left Hillman, I felt pretty confident. I was concerned at the School of Industrial Arts. So were and Norman about the deadline, but he said, “Take your time, there’s no problem.” I Maurer. Later, in the late ’40s, I went to the Art Students League with only did that one job for Hillman, because I was really looking for a Kubert and a fella called Mike Sekowsky. steady assignment with a weekly paycheck. Freelance assignments are sporadic, and you never know when you’re going to get your next job. An interesting story about Sekowsky: the instructor is going around the class, and comes to me to critique my drawing and offer his advice— My father was not too happy about my decision to be an artist. He then he goes to Kubert and helps him. Finally he comes to Mike thought I would become a city worker like most of my family—a cop, Sekowsky and says, “What the heck is that?” Mike had completely or fireman, or sanitation worker—for security reasons, and the beautiful ignored the model and had drawn a comic book figure. The instructor pensions they get. I broke the family tradition by becoming an artist, couldn’t believe it. Mike was very insulted, and never came back. you see. He couldn’t understand that, so for a while we were on the outs: “You’ll never make a living doing artwork!” But let me tell you, I John Romita and Les Zakarin also went to the school, but they didn’t helped save that house; I really did. Eventually, he realized how serious I hang out with our group. was about art, and then he supported me.

JA: Where did you get your start in comics? There was a period after Hillman Publications when I commuted by GIELLA: My first job was a freelance assignment for Ed Cronin at bus from Astoria to Englewood, New Jersey, to work on “Captain Hillman Publications. I penciled and inked a humor feature called Marvel” with C. C. Beck and , though I never met them. I “Captain Codfish.” I was 17 or 18. We were having problems at home did meet artist Nick Zuraw there, who I later worked with at Timely. “Joe Giella Is Like Fine Win e––He Gets Better With Age!” 5

I also joined the Naval Reserves in 1948, when I was 17 or 18 years old. This was right before the Korean War broke out, and I can remember everybody saying, “Where the hell’s Korea?” We joined the Naval Reserves because we were crazy: we wanted to visit different countries. Each year, we’d go on a two-week trip, or a three-month trip. Then the war broke out, and wow, everything changed. There we were doing picket duty, looking for submarines, and going crazy worrying. We were in Puerto Rico the year before, and Cuba, when Battista was there. I was still able to do comics because, in the reserves, we’d go out on an annual cruise for two or three weeks, then come back to our regular jobs. I’d just take a sabbatical from work for the amount of time that I had to serve. I stayed in the reserves for eight years. We were on active duty during each cruise, but I never had to do any fighting.

“All Of A Sudden, Mike Sekowsky Sekowsky By Winiarski? Artist Mike Sekowsky was caricatured (by fellow bullpenner Ed Winiarski?) in Walked Into The Room” a mid-1940s Timely humor comic. In addition to drawing virtually every JA: How did you get to Fawcett? 1940s genre at Timely/Marvel, in late 1959 he became the original penciler of DC’s “ of America.” Thanks to Jim Vadeboncoeur, Jr. [©2005 GIELLA: I didn’t work on staff at Fawcett; any work I did for them Marvel Characters, Inc.] was in a freelance capacity. I recall that they were sticklers for drawing Captain Marvel in C. C. Beck’s style. I was mainly inking, but probably because I wanted something closer to home. Commuting by bus to Beck doing a little penciling too. You’d have the style guide right there on and Costanza’s studio in Englewood was a trip and a half. That’s why I your desk, and that head had to be exactly the way they wanted it. made an appointment at Timely Comics, which was either in 1946 or ’47. I only worked there for a short spell, maybe a couple of months, The very first assignment that Stan gave me was a freelance job. I was looking for a staff job, but they’d test you out first to make sure they liked your work, and then they’d throw you in the bullpen. It was terrific training for a young artist, because you would do a little of everything: penciling, inking, coloring, a little lettering. It really was a great experience.

Anyway, Stan gave me my first assignment, which was a crime story—probably a ten-pager—penciled by Mike Sekowsky. I took the story home, and guess what? I lost it on the train. Nobody in my family—myself, my father, mother, and brothers— nobody slept that night, because we figured that was of the job. The next day, I went in and told Stan about it, and he hit the ceiling. He called the IRT and BMT line subways, and no luck. Then he called in Robbie Solomon, who was the production manager, but he couldn’t help, either. And I thought that would be it for me at Timely.

All of a sudden, Mike Sekowsky walked into the room. I’d never met him before, and didn’t even know that he’d penciled the job. Mike said, “Don’t worry about it, Stan. I’ll take care of the kid.” Mike must have recognized I had an urgent need for this job, so he re-penciled the story, and I inked it. Stan accepted it and gave me a staff position. I walked up to Mike and said, “Mike, I can’t pay you back right now, but I’ll take a little bit out of my check every week to pay you back.” Mike said, “No no no, forget about it.” And I thought, “Well, I’m not going to argue with this guy—he’s 6'3".” When I didn’t get fired after losing the story, and after another crazy incident, I thought, “Well, Stan’ll never fire me after this.”

Mike and I became very good friends, right until the very end. He used to go out with an inker named Violet Barclay. She was a beautiful, voluptuous brunette—wow! But she preferred . So when Mike wasn’t with her, we would spend time going to Broadway plays together, and to bars... we just had a really good time. Now you see why I didn’t want to leave Timely Comics. I was very happy there. That was Beck And Forth my home. Although Joe doesn’t remember specific stories, he recalls working on the JA: Did you feel as if Mike took you under his wing? World’s Mightiest Mortal for Fawcett circa 1946-47. So there’s at least a chance he may have worked with C.C. Beck and his studio on this tale from GIELLA: Not exactly. Mike was a real tough guy, and he had a terrible Captain #61 (May 24, 1946), one of four in the issue. temper, but he also had a heart of gold. He liked what I did to his work, [©2005 DC Comics.] 6 The Man Who Inked DC’s Silver Age

working on Flash Gordon then, but I couldn’t put him on that, because the styles would conflict. It was so sad.

His first wife was Joanne Latta. When he met her, she was a writer in the magazine department at Timely. She was a tiny, good- looking woman with glasses, blonde hair, and a nice figure. She looked like a schoolteacher or librarian. They lived in Levittown, New York, but Mike was probably not an easy guy to live with. I wish I knew what caused their separation. Something must have happened that was deep and penetrating to him; something very bad. When she left, she took the two kids and moved to Washington state, and he wasn’t able to see them.

I used to tell him, “Mike, I hope you’re saving your money, because at this rate, you’re going to get Hot Rods And Racing Artists burned out.” And there he was, Both and Mike Sekowsky drew stories for Ziff-Davis’ “Hot Rod” King #1-and-only (Fall 1952). Matter of looking for work. He had probably fact, Giacoia has two signed tales therein. Since Joe says he helped Giacoia out on many of his art jobs, and also often spent all his money, and he was worked with Sekowsky, could be there’s a bit of Giella in them thar panels, as well. The issue’s cover, incidentally, very sick. And you know the was a painting by pulp master Norman Saunders. For more about Ziff-Davis’ 1950s comics line, see Jim Amash’s outcome. Toward the end of his life, interview with Golden Age editor Herb Rogoff in A/E #43—still on sale wherever back issues are sold—like, on pp. he drank a lot. He used to drink 44-45 of this very issue. With thanks to Donald A. Rex for the scans. [©2005 the respective copyright holders.] Jack Daniels, and he’d drink about three-quarters of a quart bottle a and we became buddies. He had a good sense of humor. However, he day. He’d have a bottle on his taboret. I think he drank because of did have a bad temper, and he drank. When I worked with him at Joanne. Timely, he was a social drinker. I would usually drink beer when we went out together, but he drank the hard stuff, and I could see right People either liked Mike, or they didn’t like him. If you really knew away that this guy could put it away. When he got a little high, his true him, as I did, he would do anything for you. He would do anything for feelings would come out... his opinions about people. It was a release; all me. And Mike loved Frank Giacoia; he thought Frank was the greatest. the venom would come out of him. JA: I’ve heard that Mike had a cutting, devastating sense of humor. Many years later, I was working at DC Comics—mostly as an Does anything come to mind about that? inker—but I also penciled and inked licensing work. One day, Dick GIELLA: We used to work at Frank Giacoia’s house, and Mike would Giordano asked me to take one of Mike’s jobs and kind of redo it, fix it always be coming up with jokes. His delivery was terrific; he knew how up. I looked at it, and thought, “Gee, there’s too much to work to do to tell a joke. We would discuss the other artists and editors, and make here; I’m going to have to re-pencil everything.” You see, Dick had gone fun of this or that guy. But Mike would never discuss his personal life to California to recruit some artists. He stopped in to see Mike, and with us. He seemed happy after he married Pat, his second wife. promised him a lot of work. When Mike sent the job in, Dick was very unhappy with it, so he gave it to me to try to salvage it. I made it clear to Mike had a heart of gold, though. I remember him lending money to him that this wasn’t an ink job, that it would have to be redrawn. Dick Frank Giacoia. Any time you were in the hole and needed help, there he said, “Ok, go ahead and do it, Joe.” I had to redraw about 75% of the was. He would never turn you down. But there were two sides to him. job. That’s how much Mike had deteriorated. He was really drinking That’s what was so sad about Mike: he wasn’t happy with himself. He then. wasn’t happy with his life. He loved the comics, really enjoyed it. He loved the scripts, and would really dig into them. Comics was his life, But that wasn’t the end of it. I delivered the job, and wouldn’t you and it’s just so sad. He was so myopic that he couldn’t see any further. know that the day I delivered it, Mike showed up at the office, all the way from California. The last guy I wanted to see that day was Mike Sekowsky, because of our previous affiliation and the debt I owed him. I “Joe, Could You Pitch In On This Job?” said, “Mike, what are you doing here?” And Mike said, “Dick Giordano promised me a lot of work, but he didn’t come through, and I’m here to JA: Getting back to how you started at Timely: why did Stan give talk to him about it.” Then he asked me what I was doing there. Well, I you an inking job? Were you looking for inking work, or just any couldn’t lie to Mike; he was my friend. I said, “Mike, you’re going to be work? upset. They asked me to ink the job you sent in, and it was too rough. I GIELLA: I would do any work that they offered. When I joined the couldn’t just ink it; I had to rework a lot of it.” I thought he would hit Timely bullpen, I started out doing a little touch-up work, a little the ceiling, but he didn’t! After that, we just said goodbye; I don’t recall background work, a little inking, redraw this, fix this head, do whether we had dinner or drinks before we parted company. Later on, something with this panel... whatever. Later on, I assisted , he called me up from California, looking for work. I think I was who was drawing “Captain America” and a couple of other characters. “Joe Giella Is Like Fine Win e––He Gets Better With Age!” 7

Timely’s Not-Quite-So-Big Three Joe recalls working on each of Timely’s three major super-heroes in the later 1940s, during their waning days—never doing a complete story, but inking a page here, re- penciling a panel there. For that reason, we’ve repro’d last pages, rather than splashes, from one such possible “jam” issue— Marvel Mystery Comics #86 (March 1948). The “Torch” tale contains lots of nice moody blacks—and Ye Editor found himself wondering if shadowy panels on some pages didn’t betray the work of a young Gene Colan. The “Sub-Mariner” tale looks like pure Bill Everett, who often drew him wearing more than just swimming trunks. Syd Shores was the main “Captain America” artist during this era, and may have contributed to this outing. Oh, and there was a “” story in the 52-page issue, as well. [©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

After about a year, I was mostly inking.

A lot of fellows like Frank Giacoia, Sy Barry, and myself went to inking for monetary reasons. None of us started out intending to become inkers; we started out penciling. I was inking two to three pages a day, but I couldn’t pencil more than one. And you know, when you need money, you kind-of lean toward the inking. I could bring home $90 a week instead of $40. And after a while, you kind-of get typecast. To this day, I’m still slow at penciling, and I make up the time on the inking.

JA: So you did “Captain America” several times in the ’40s, right?

GIELLA: I didn’t do a complete story. I was in production at first. They’d say, “Joe, could you ink these two pages?” Or, “Joe, can you take care of the backgrounds on this?” Or, “Could you re-pencil this?” That was the extent of it.

JA: You were on staff at Timely for about two years. What features did you work on? 8 The Man Who Inked DC’s Silver Age

could you pitch in on this job?” Most of the time, I would.

JA: Who oversaw the bullpen?

GIELLA: The editor that you were working for. There weren’t too many people in the bullpen. There was a humor bullpen in another room, but I was in the “adventure” bullpen with Syd Shores, Vince Alascia, Al Sulman, Al Bellman, and a feisty little fella named Bill Walsh. Nobody was really in charge of the room. An editor—maybe Al Sulman—would come in and say, “Joe could you work on this?” And I’d say, “Gee, I have to finish this first,” or “I’m doing this for Syd.”

I have a story about Al Sulman. Al invited me to the Yale-Harvard football game. When we sat down, I noticed there was an empty seat, which was for Al’s girlfriend. And then we heard on somebody’s portable radio that there had been an airplane crash. It turned out that Al Sulman’s girlfriend was on board the plane, and she died in the crash. I think it was a year before Al came back to work.

JA: Al Jaffe described Al Sulman as not having much of a sense of humor. Describe him for me.

GIELLA: Yeah, he was serious. He had black hair, horn-rimmed glasses. He was a little on the chunky side. He wasn’t interested in athletics, and he ate a little too much.

JA: At the time, Al Sulman was editing Captain America , some of the , and maybe Westerns, too. So Stan was like the über -editor (for want of a better term), and Sulman was a full editor working under Stan, right?

GIELLA: Right. Stan very rarely asked me to do anything directly; it was usually through another editor. I’d see Stan every day, though. He’d The Merry Marvel Marching Society – 1947 Edition come into the room and look at what I was doing, and maybe look at We’ve previously printed this caricature of , which appeared in his what someone else was doing. Then maybe he’d blurt to one of the 1947 book Secrets behind the Comics , but since Joe mentions him so artists, “Can I get Joe on this other story?” And the artist might say, prominently, here ’tis again—alongside a page of the archetypal dumb blonde “No, he’s got to finish this first, Stan.” And maybe later that day Stan My Friend Irma , drawn by Dan DeCarlo. This 1950s TV/radio-licensed Timely would come into the room and joke about something, or critique the title is the earliest place Roy T. recalls seeing the name “Stan Lee” as a kid. work being done. Other times, Stan and Syd Shores would discuss Repo’d from an Australian black-&-white reprint mag, with thanks to Mark future titles they would be putting out. Muller. [Caricature ©2005 Stan Lee; Irma page ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.] Syd later became a taxi cab driver; that was so sad. I happened to see GIELLA: “Captain America,” “The Human Torch,” “Sub-Mariner”... him while I was on jury duty back in the early ’70s, and he told me he among others. I also did humor work. was driving a cab because he couldn’t find work. Of course you know that he passed away many years ago. JA: In 1947, Stan Lee wanted to update “The Sub-Mariner,” and he asked to draw a couple of stories. Stan didn’t like the JA: Bob Deschamps said you guys used to make fun of Syd’s toupee. results, and had some bullpen guys rework the stories. GIELLA: Not me, but the others used to. GIELLA: I probably was one of them. I don’t recall ever getting an entire story to ink, though, and I don’t remember who I might have inked on “Sub-Mariner.” “What Do You Remember About…?”

JA: What was it like to work on those characters when, just a few JA: What were your impressions of Stan Lee at this time? years before, you were buying their comic books? GIELLA: I looked up to him. He had a sense of humor, and as I GIELLA: What a feeling! I was ecstatic! I was working on these mentioned earlier, he didn’t fire me when he could have. We became characters that I had loved, enjoyed, and fantasized about. What a very good friends. I went to see the first movie with Stan. We dream! I think they started me at $60 a week, and then it worked up to were walking toward the theatre and I said, “Stan, what the heck are all ninety. That was a lot of money back then. I’d get one check a week these cops on horseback doing here?” And he said, “Gee, I don’t know, from , and I used to give my mother $50 out of Joe.” So we walked into the theatre and sat down. Then Stan said to me, that. “Joe, y’know why all the cops were out there? Look ahead of us.” A couple of rows in front of us were Mayor Koch and Governor Carey. JA: Was Stan Lee the only editor you worked for at Timely? I saw Stan at San Diego when they gave me the , and he GIELLA: I worked for Al Sulman and Al Jaffee, but it would have been jokingly said, “Joe, I should have fired you that day you lost that job on in the same capacity as for the other editors. They would ask me, “Joe, the train.” [ laughter ] He’d never forgotten it. I also used to see him at 33 “Comic Artists Could Draw Better Than Anybody In The World!” Artist JAY SCOTT PIKE Talks About His Days At Timely/Marvel & DC Interview Conducted & Transcribed by Jim Amash f you want a story with beautiful women in it, look no further IIthan a Jay Scott Pike tale. Scott, as he prefers to be called, delin - eated breathtaking women for and for titles like Lorna, the and Jann of the Jungle . His attention to jungle foliage heightened the reality of their environment and was always a pleasure to look at. And, though sadly he wrote and drew his late-’60s creation “Dolphin” only once, she remains a cult favorite among comics fans. As far as we’re concerned, Jay Scott Pike ranks high on the all- time list of classic “good girl” artists; and if you want further proof of that, then check out his eBay auctions for examples of his current work, or contact Marianne Ohl Phillips at www.moppinup.com . But please wait until you’ve read our whole interview! You’ll find plenty of evidence on view there, as well. —Jim. “I Just Wanted To Draw” JIM AMASH: We can’t get away with not asking this , so I’ll ask it first: when and where were you born?

JAY SCOTT PIKE: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, September 6, 1924.

JA: I was born in Altoona, PA.

PIKE: Oh yeah, where the coal mines are. I went to the University of Pennsylvania for one semester before I went into the Marine Corps. I was on the Freshman football team, and just about all the guys on the team were from the Pennsylvania coal fields. Boy, were they tough!

JA: Oh, I know it! So you were a football player. What got you inter - ested in cartooning?

PIKE: Like most professional , I liked to draw and drew all the time. I remember when the movie Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs came out. It was being played all the time, and it fascinated me. Beauty & The Beard I got so that I could draw all the characters in the movie. I just wanted Jay Scott Pike (in a self-portrait done a decade or two back)—and a to draw. drawing of his heroine Dolphin which he did especially for interviewer I graduated from high school in Morristown, New Jersey, and went Jim Amash. Scott’s the one on the left. [Portrait & art ©2005 Jay Scott Pike; to college, as I said. I enlisted in the Marines in December 1942. Dolphin TM & ©2005 DC Comics.]

JA: So you volunteered. Did you have a deferment because you were said, “Awww...let him in.” [ laughs ] That’s how I got into the Marine in college? Corps.

PIKE: I don’t think they had college deferments then. I actually tried I got out in ’46. I was discharged in San Diego, and tried to get into eight times to get into the service before they took me. They wouldn’t college there, but they were only taking California residents. I did get into take me because I’m color blind—well, not actually color blind, but I the Parsons School of Design in Manhattan. I got married in 1948, and had trouble seeing colors. Finally, on my last try, the Corps man turned after living in Indiana for a while, we came down to the Ringling School me down, but there was an old chief on the other side of the room, who of Art in Sarasota, Florida. I went to school there for a year and a half, and 34 Artist Jay Scott Pike Talks About His Days At Timely/Marvel & DC

Hartley Working , a Timely/Marvel mainstay for many years on humor comics, was still drawing Patsy & Hedy in 1964 when this photo appeared in Annual #1. These two “Kollege Kapers” pages are from issues #1 & #2, respectively, of B&I Publishing’s The Kilroys in 1947, an early and funny Archie imitation; they display a slightly different style of Hartley art than seen in , et al. Thanks to Joe Marek, Steve Brumbaugh, and Bob Bailey for all sending copies of the photo of Al—and to Ger Apeldoorn for the comics pages. [Photo ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.; art ©2005 the respective copyright holders.] learned about all they were going to teach me, so I went to Manhattan, PIKE: I worked at home. I liked Stan Lee a lot and always found him thinking the world was waiting for me to be a straight illustrator. very easy to work with. When my wife and I moved back to Florida, Stan always gave me two or three scripts at a time, so when I finished a story, I could jump right into another one. Personally, I hardly ever saw “Al Hartley…Got Me Into Comics” him, though we talked on the phone a lot.

JA: Is that where you met Al Hartley? As soon as I realized I could keep busy doing comics and live where I wanted, my wife and I moved back to Sarasota, Florida. In the second PIKE: Actually, I grew up in Morristown, New Jersey, and when we half of the 1950s, the comic book business went to hell, so I was moved back north, we lived in Morristown for a year or so. Al Hartley stranded down in Florida without any visible means of support. I did all was living in Washington Valley, which was real close to where I lived. kinds of things, like portraits. I did them in pastels. I also did paintings He was the one who got me into comics, in 1950. My hope had been to in the bottom of swimming pools, architectural renderings...anything to work at home and find high paying illustration work, but I couldn’t make a buck. I also worked for several agencies, but two of them went seem to get any work. At that time, I didn’t want to commute to New belly-up, owing me about $18,000, which did us in. That was in 1960, so York City, so a friend of mine suggested I draw comic books. I didn’t we moved back to the New York area so I could get some decent kind of want to do that, because I thought comic books were the bottom of the work. barrel, and I didn’t know much about comics at all. But I was so impressed by Al Hartley’s lifestyle, because he was making a lot of JA: Since you lived in Florida for most of your Timely career, you money, and he was fast. He was really cranking the work out. mainly talked to Stan by phone. I’m surprised he had the time, considering how busy he was. Was Stan the only one you talked to or I penciled stuff for Al for about two weeks, but our styles were really was there another editor you worked with? not compatible, and we both realized that. Because of that, we sort-of got irritated with each other. By then, I had gotten to know Stan Lee. I PIKE: No, I always talked to Stan. There was one time that I got a call remember the first story I did was a 3-pager about a professional golfer, from a secretary or an assistant. She said, “Do you have to wrap those though I can’t remember his name. Then Stan started feeding me pages up like you do? They’re wrapped like a bomb.” Westerns, and if you’ve done Westerns, you know how long it takes to do a story. All those horses, costumes, gun belts... they take time. I did JA: Yeah, but the first time pages came in damaged, you’d have heard them... I did all kinds of things. At that time, I was... and I still am, I about it. Now, you said you did . You happen to guess... pretty much against war. I did a few war stories before I decided remember who the writer was? I didn’t want to do any more of them. Stan Lee was very understanding about it. Maybe the stories I did weren’t gory. I got into doing horror PIKE: It might have been Bob Bernstein, but I’m not positive. I don’t stories, and drew The Black Rider for a long time. think Stan wrote many of the stories I worked on, but he sure did a lot of writing. Stan told me that when he was in the Army, he’d get a weekend pass, get a hotel room, and write stories. He said he could “I Always Found [Stan Lee] Easy To Work With” make a thousand bucks over the weekend, and I was impressed by that. But I really don’t remember the names of the writers. JA: Did you work at home or on staff? And what do you remember about Stan Lee? “Comic Artists Could Draw Better Than Anybody In The World!” 35 “I Liked Doing The Female Jungle Features” “I Didn’t Feel Bad About Doing Comics” JA: You also drew , Lorna the Jungle Girl .... JA: Well, you weren’t particularly proud of being in comics anyway, were you? You wanted to be an illustrator. PIKE: Oh, yeah, I drew a lot of Lorna s. I drew Jann of the Jungle , too. PIKE: I did want to be an illustrator, but I knew a few, and I was JA: You also drew stories for the crime and adventure comics, like making more money than they were. You don’t generally get rich doing All-True Crime . Did you have a favorite genre? comics, but I was doing well then.

PIKE: I really liked the romance stories because I could draw them JA: When the Senate Investigations were going on, were you embar - faster. I could draw a close-up of a woman’s face with a tear coming out rassed to admit you were doing comics? of her eye. That was easy. PIKE: I remember people asking me about it. I said, “Listen, the JA: You really had a great gift for drawing pretty women. publishers I work for are pretty doggoned straightlaced.” I can’t PIKE: Yeah, that was my strongest point, and still is. The stuff I sell on remember either Timely or DC coming out with stuff that I thought was eBay is all girly drawings. I liked doing the female jungle features—the bad. I didn’t feel bad about doing comics. pretty women and all that foliage. I was doing Lorna when the Comics JA: Then you didn’t feel bad about drawing horror stories. Code came into being. That was the only time I ever got any work back. One of the nice things about comics was that I did the work and never PIKE: I wasn’t good at doing horror stories, so I got out of doing them. saw it again. There wasn’t anyone nitpicking my work. Stan simply didn’t give me those, because he realized they weren’t my strongest area. Once I got into romance, that’s pretty much all I got. I But they sent two stories back to me. I had to reduce Lorna’s breast did like doing Westerns, but they took me longer to do. I took little size. There were scenes when she was swinging on vines above the shortcuts, like when a posse’s running into town, they kick up a lot of ground, with her skirt flying up. I had to redraw the skirt down around dust, so I didn’t have to draw the feet of the horses. I did like drawing her knees, even though she was flying upwards. [ laughs ] horses, though it wasn’t easy for me. JA: In a case like that, did they call you and tell you the work was coming back, or did a package just show up with a note attached to “Stan Would Call Me…Would I Take A Rate Cut?” the art? JA: How fast an artist were you? PIKE: I guess Stan called me first. I don’t remember him being upset about it. It was just the way things were. Comics got a lot of bad PIKE: Back in the ’50s, I could average $25,000 a year. I was getting publicity, thanks to EC Comics. That cover where the about $35 to $40 a page, pencils and inks. To make 25 grand, I’d have to man was holding up the severed head! That was too gory and got us into average $500 a week, so I had to be cranking out two pages a day. trouble. Congress got involved, and that gave them a chance to be self- righteous. JA: Did you letter your stories?

That Was Lorna —But She’s Only A Dream “I drew a lot of Lornas!” recalls Scott. Here, courtesy of collector Bob Cherry, are two Pike splashes and an action page (from the second story) from Lorna, the Jungle Girl #22 (Dec. 1956). Even Sheena never looked more gorgeous in a jungle setting! And, like Jim Amash says, the foliage ain’t too shabby, either. (That’s “trees,” for you guys with dirty minds.) [©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.] 46 “I Was All Over The Place, And Enjoying Every Minute Of It!” MARTIN THALL On Drawing Comics And Witnessing Comics History In the 1940s & ’50s Interview Conducted by Jim Amash Transcribed by Tom Wimbish

artin Thall’s comic book career lasted a little less than a MM decade, but in that time, he managed to partner himself with guys like , Ross Andru and Mike Esposito, and George Evans. Martin also did quite a bit of work on his own for companies like Timely, Features, and St. John Publications. If he didn’t make his mark on comics the way some of his contemporaries did, he still says, “I witnessed a lot of history.” Thanks to “fellow defense attorney” and author , I was able to coax Martin to step into the box and tell us a few stories about his comic book years. Now you get to judge whether or not Martin made a good witness. This entertaining interview stands as our verdict. —Jim

“ Was My Mentor” JIM AMASH: When and where were you born?

MARTIN THALL: , New York, on November the 30th, 1930. It was a very good year.

JA: You were born Martin Rosenthal, right? Why did you change your name?

THALL: That’s an interesting story. When my grandfather came to this country from Poland, his name was Schmael Colycka. I think that’s Yiddish: “Schmael” means sloppy, and “Colycka” means cripple. He

Thall Or Nothing At All (Left:) In May, Martin Thall sent Ye Editor a proofsheet of what he called “some recent reasonable facsimiles of myself. Pick one.” Hey, we like ’em all , Martin, so…! (Above:) The year 1951 saw Fawcett publish 6 issues of Captain Video , based on the early TV hero, all with art credited to George Evans—so since Martin says he did inking and backgrounds for Evans on that mag, we figure this page may just show their work together. Repro’d from a black-&-white 1950s English reprint of Captain Video #2 (April 1951), courtesy of Roger Dicken & Wendy Hunt. [©2005 the respective copyright holders.]

came here in 1906 or 1907. At that time, there was no TV or radio, but the newspaper boys would take to the streets and yell out, “Wuxtry, wuxtry!” And the headlines were, “Herman Rosenthal captured!” Then shortly after that, “Herman Rosenthal on trial!” Then, “Herman Rosenthal convicted!” When my grandfather first came here, the first name he heard was Rosenthal, so he took it. “I Was All Over The Place, And Enjoying Every Minute Of It!” 47

don’t pay attention to that.” When Jack drew a guy throwing a punch, his body twisted in a way that the human body couldn’t manage. He freed me up, and he showed me how he laid out his figures. When Jack Kirby laid out a page, he worked on illustration board rather than the soft board, and he blocked out his panels before doing the actual drawing.

One scene he did had a pirate ship coming alongside some kind of sea vessel, and the pirates were raiding the vessel. He had a cast of thousands in the shot. When Jack put down a line, it was there . He sort-of visualized the whole thing; he was able to see what was going on in his mind, and model that. He could do eight pages a day, and he never erased; it was incredible. It was almost like he was tracing on paper what he saw in his mind.

One Christmas, in 1945, I bought him a box of White cigars— that’s the cheapest cigar in the world; no cigar smoker will go anywhere near them—and he was very touched by it. Jack chain-smoked cigars. I was on a school break, it was Christmas vacation, and he said, “Let’s have some coffee.” We went to the Waldorf-Astoria, which was only three blocks away from DC’s office at 480 Lexington Avenue. He took me to the Wedgewood Room, which was an elegant place, about fifty years old, and bought me dinner. I had my first shrimp cocktail there; he ordered it for me. Then he took me across the street on Park Avenue to an art supply store called Irving Berlin. I was just looking around while he was ordering stuff, and then he gave me this huge package. It was a drawing pad, pens, ink, brushes, all kinds of supplies. He was a really great guy to me.

I used to hang around at DC Comics. I knew everybody there, all the editors, but I never worked for the company.

JA: When you watched Jack Kirby work, was he writing the stories, too?

THALL: I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think so. I was so fixed on his boards that I don’t recall seeing a script. I should have noticed that.

That’s Quite A Stunt, Man! I did a terrible thing to Jack once. After he left DC, he and “When Jack [Kirby] drew a guy throwing a punch, his body twisted in a way had their own studio. The letterer was Howard Ferguson. Bob Henry that the human body couldn’t manage! ” And he made it look good, every and Steve Brodie were inkers there, but Joe Simon did most of the time—as in this Simon & Kirby-produced Stuntman page, repro’d here from inking. Anyway, they would stack their pages, and were working so fast Pure Imagination’s The Complete Jack Kirby – March-May 1947 , and used by that they would pass them around. Jack would pencil it, hand it on to be permission of Greg Theakston. [Retouched art ©2005 Greg Theakston; Stuntman TM Joe Simon & Estate of Jack Kirby.] inked, then another guy would rule the panel borders and letter it. They would just go in circles. They were knocking them out so fast that it was fascinating. Coincidentally, about 40 years later, I got into a cab, and the cabbie’s card said that the driver’s name was Herman Rosenthal. I told him the Anyway, the pages were stacked on end on the floor between Bob story, and he said, “The gangster who gave your grandfather his name Henry’s taboret and his drafting table. Bob Henry dropped his pencil, or was my grandfather.” Small world. something like that. I reached for it, knocked over a bottle of ink that was on the taboret, and it spilled all over the pages that were done I legally changed my last name to Thall in 1953. I used to be very already. Jack said, “Should we lynch him?” Then he said, “You’d better vain, and I was thinking about signatures. “Rosenthal” just didn’t seem go.” I had damaged three pages. They had to be done all over again. I to go well, but “Martin Thall” seemed to be a good signature. I tried said, “Are you gonna let me come back?” and he said yes. They were so other names, such as “Emrose” and “Martin Rose,” before deciding on gracious about it that it was incredible. I felt terrible. “Martin Thall.” Everybody had a signature: , with a big “O.” I wanted a new signature, so I registered my name as It was fascinating watching Will Eisner pencil, and watching him ink Thall. with a Japanese brush. That was in 1950, I believe. I used to go up wherever artists were drawing. It was easy to find them after World War JA: Tell me about your experiences with Jack Kirby. II, because they were all working at their publishers’ facilities. The THALL: Jack Kirby was my mentor. He was wonderful; I saw him companies had large bullpens for all of them. every day after school. He worked at DC Comics. This was right after JA: What do you remember about Joe Simon? 1945. At that time, all the cartoonists at DC didn’t work at home; they worked at the publisher’s. I went over to DC, and there was Jack Kirby. THALL: Very little. He was a nice guy, and he lived on . Joe Simon was still in the service, and hadn’t gotten out yet. They didn’t Simon and Kirby had an extension line in their office, so I could talk to last much longer at DC. I went to the High School of Industrial Arts in them at the same time. I’d call them in the evening while they were the daytime, and the Cartoonists and Illustrators School at night, and I working, and they’d chat with me about everything and anything in the used to visit Jack Kirby in between. He would look at my work, and say, world. They were terrific. “You’re too realistic; you draw things that any human body can do. I 48 Martin Thall On Drawing Comics And Witnessing Comics History In The 1940s & ’50s

Fiction House Favorites In the 1940s, Martin Thall reports he shared studio space with noted comic book artists Charles Sultan & Maurice Whitman. (Left:) collector Paul Handler ID’s this Charles Sultan -drawn splash page, repro’d from photocopies of the original art, as coming from Rangers Comics #37 (Oct. 1947). Pay no attention to that byline “R.W. Colt.” The company’s comics and pulp magazines were full of fictitious “house names”—maybe that’s why publisher T.T. Scott named it “Fiction House”! (Right:) Maurice Whitman often drew “Kaänga” (officially always by “Frank Riddell”). This splash page was retouched by Bill Black and his merry AC Comics crew, with gray tones added, for his black-&-white collection Golden Age Greats, Vol. 14 – The Comic Book Jungle . It’s still available; check out AC’s full-page ad in this issue’s FCA section. [Retouched art ©2005 Paragon Publications/AC Comics.]

JA: What were you doing at Fiction House? Were you just visiting “We Met At Fiction House…” there?

JA: You also spent time at Fiction House. Tell me about that. THALL: Yeah, that was before I broke in. I never got any work from THALL: Fiction House Publications had all their artists working in the Fiction House. bullpen. It was one large room with Charlie Sultan, , JA: What can you tell me about Maurice Whitman? George Evans, , and a woman named Francis. I got to know Charlie Sultan very well, and Maurice Whitman, too. Sultan came THALL: He was a great artist, and a very good illustrator. He had a there after the war, as did most of the other guys. Then he started terrible marriage, and near the end of his life he was very fat. There was working at home. In 1956, he stopped cartooning—he wasn’t doing very a beautiful young girl working at Fiction House, and she was in love well as a in the later part of his life—and went into publishing. with Maurice. I think they finally got together in the end. At that time, I He called me up in 1958 and said, “Do you want to work for me?” I was sharing space with Charlie Sultan. I wasn’t working with him, but I said, “Sure.” He was publishing a racing magazine and an adventure was sharing space with him. magazine. I was the art director. I was there for less than a year. JA: How large was Fiction House’s office? JA: I’ve heard that he was cross-eyed. Is that true? THALL: They had a huge office. The artists’ room had about 20 people THALL: Yeah. Maurice always said that he “drew crooked,” and he did. in there. There was an old guy named Joe Doolin, who did many of the One eye didn’t match the other eye. It was strange. covers. He spent about a week doing a cover; he was very methodical. None of his covers had anything to do with what was going on inside. My Visit With Will

For as long as I can remember, I idolized Will Eisner. We began corresponding in 1978, and in 1982 I met him at the School of Visual Arts in New York, where he was teaching cartooning.

Over the years Will and I would occasionally touch base, chatting for a few minutes at comic book conventions and such. In the years since Michael and Will in 2001, at Will’s studio in Tamarac, Florida. Wonder who I’d first met him, Will and his wife Ann had moved from New York to drew all those nifty cards in the background? sunny Florida. In January 1997, I visited my parents in West Palm Beach and made arrangements to stop by Will’s studio in West Tamarac, about an hour away. After showing us around, Will drove us to a nearby golf course for lunch. At 79, Will was in great shape (he played tennis every day!), and If my wife Janet and I were expecting the great Will Eisner to work very sharp. We reminisced about our days in New York. He chuckled as in some fancy-schmancy office complex, we were in for a rude I described feeling like The Spirit every time I went down into New awakening. The address Will gave us led us to a strip mall located in a York’s gloomy subway system. working-class neighborhood. His office was in a nearby building. The area reminded me of a low-rent district in New York, the perfect spot I reminded him of our meeting at the School of Visual Arts years for a no-nonsense businessman like Will. earlier and he told me he loved teaching those classes. Janet and I were stunned to learn Will flew to New York each week for years to teach at Eisner’s studio was clean, neat, and efficient. It wasn’t huge, but big the school even after he’d moved to Florida. He said it was worth the enough for him to work comfortably. Will introduced us to his brother trip just to inhale that wonderfully polluted New York air! Julian (known as Pete), his business manager. As I recall, Pete’s office contained a beautiful piece of original poster art from Will’s Army days. Will also described a large mural he’d designed, painted on the side of Another wall displayed dozens of original drawings sent to Will by his a building in Copenhagen. It featured The Spirit and one of his favorite admirers. characters, Gerhard Shnobble, the poor schlubb who could fly like a bird (though no one knew it!). By coincidence, Janet and I were Will’s desk was at the far end of the room, surrounded by planning a trip to Copenhagen that September and made a note to look bookshelves stuffed with graphic novels, mine included. An impressive for it. Months later, we finally tracked it down after tromping through display of plaques and awards from various countries lined the walls. half the city. Luckily there were ample pastry shops to sustain us along Nearby was a drawing table, complete with layouts for yet another the way. . After I returned, I pitched couple more ideas for The New Comic FanTditloe m Archive 65 A Talk With Writer, Educator, & Comics Fanatic GLEN JOHNSON by Bill Schelly

Part Two ntroduction: Last issue featured the first part of my conversation Just A Society of Americans with Glen, a former editor of who wrote II Fan-artist Ronn Foss (with his ever-present pipe) visits Glen Johnson and his some of the better articles on comics history for the early fanzines wife Maizie in New Mexico in 1965—juxtaposed with Biljo White’s re-creation (Comic World, Alter Ego, Heroes Illustrated , et al). Glen also of the cover of All- #24 (with Starman and Sandman replacing pioneered the use of the sequential art format to teach English as a and ) which accompanied Glen’s article on the JSA in second language on Indian reservations in the 1960s. We spoke by Alter Ego [Vol. 1] #8 in 1965. Photo probably by Beverly Foss; all photos telephone on January 16, 2005. accompanying this interview are courtesy of Glen Johnson. [Art ©2005 Estate of Biljo White; Justice Society TM & ©2005 DC Comics.] In this second half of our long-overdue talk, we discussed why Glen left his editorial/publishing post at The Comic Reader , the wasn’t really supposed to be using that machine for cranking out a comic “fanclave” he attended at artist Russ Manning’s house in May 1964, book newsletter. I had to go to the school on Sundays or late at night to his views on current comics, and more. Special thanks to Brian K. sneak the publication of my fanzine. Morris for his usual fine transcription effort, and to my friend and colleague Jeffrey Kipper for editing the interview down to final form. BS: You did it for quite a long time; then, when you passed it on to Darrell Rothermich and Jim King, they published it via photo-offset. I’ve thought of this stuff many times when writing my columns and BILL SCHELLY: Getting back to the period when you were editing books on comics fandom, but you probably haven’t talked about The Comic Reader , I understand that Ronn Foss not only did some these events in a long time. fan art for you, but actually dropped by so you could meet in person. JOHNSON: Not in a long time… GLEN JOHNSON: Yes, he and his sister Beverly came by when we were on the reservation while they were traveling west. It was very BS: Were you also interested in newspaper comic strips, as well? unusual for me to have a fellow fan visit. They stayed with us for a couple nights. Beverly brought her Joy Holiday outfit and put it on for JOHNSON: Yes. I clipped them and saved them. I don’t think I was us. We got some pictures of her wearing it and then my wife tried it on. collecting strips when I lived in New Mexico. It was later, after I moved [laughs ] That was really the first time I had met a Big Name Fan. Ronn to Utah, in 1967. I subscribed to the Asbury Park Press and then a was very knowledgeable, and I’ve always been surprised he never paper from just north of Seattle that carried Tarzan . Russ Manning became a professional comics artist, full-time. His drawing style was a started doing Tarzan , and I was lucky to save the complete run that he combination of Kubert and Kirby. did for the Sunday page, along with other good strips.

BS: He did make a living off his artwork in later years, but not in the I spent four years on the Navajo reservation in New Mexico. At the comics field, per se. I think he certainly had the ability, but I don’t time, there were a couple of dozen off-reservation Indian schools and think he had the drive. He was one of the most popular artists in the one in Brigham City, the Inner Mountain Indian School, was fandom, and he loved Golden Age comics, especially those from the probably one of the largest and best known. I actually lived about 400 ’50s. What was your reason for stepping down from publishing of miles from the reservation. The school was just an abandoned Comic Reader ? government facility that was converted into an Indian school.

JOHNSON: It was a lot of monthly work. I put out about 12 pages per BS: On the topic of your article-writing for fanzines in 1963, you issue. Also, I printed it on ditto machine at the school where I worked. I were pretty tied up with Comic Reader , and it seems like you really 66 Comic Fandom Archive burst forth after that with the publi - corresponded quite regularly. I told him cation of articles for Comic World and I’d like to come by and visit him. And also Alter Ego . With regard to Alter he says, “Well, if you’re going to come Ego , did you have a pretty good by, there are a number of other fans that friendship and correspondence with Roy have been wanting to come by also. I’ll Thomas? just make the whole day a sort of a fan get-together.” And so that’s what JOHNSON: I did. Roy and I started happened. My wife and my son Cary corresponding in 1961. He wanted joined us, too. My wife visited with something about the JSA in each issue, Russ’ wife. and yet he wanted a view other than his own, so he asked me to write articles One of the highlights was that Russ about the JSA. gave everybody four pages of original artwork from a Ben-Hur comic book BS: The first one you wrote was “Two he’d drawn. Russ got very little artwork Cases of Conscience,” for Alter Ego #8. back from Western or Gold , but he It must have been written towards the did get the Ben-Hur story back. end of 1964 or early ’65. At the end of the article, there’s a photo of you BS: That’s interesting, because I have looking very urbane, with a pipe. one of those Ben Hur pages now. I [NOTE: See previous issue.] Manning The Ramparts think it was a gift to me from The “famous photo” of the fan-meet at artist Russ Manning’s Howard Keltner shortly before he JOHNSON: Yes, I smoked a pipe. I quit passed away. What was Russ like in smoking about 20 years ago. In fact, I got home in May 1964. (Top:) Glen Johnson, Richard Kyle, Rick Durrell. (Bottom:) John McGeehan, , Russ Manning. So who person? that idea from Ronn Foss. He did that for snapped the picture? an article. [ laughs ] He was holding a JOHNSON: I really enjoyed Russ pipe, and he looked very distinguished. Manning. He was very friendly and My wife took that picture of me . open. He was almost humble over the fact that people enjoyed his artwork so much. He did have lots of fans. I enjoyed his Tarzan even BS: It’s the “man who reads more than Hogarth or Foster, Playboy ” sort of look. Did Roy because his version was so much suggest the specific subject for the like what Burroughs put down on article? paper. He also did an excellent job JOHNSON: He did. I think he of incorporating science-fiction suggested both articles, the one in #8 into the Tarzan comics. He just and the one in #9. I’ve always had had a little studio, an outbuilding like 20 or 25 really worn-out issues near the house. It held his comic of All-Star to work from. books and reference material. He worked out there with his drawing BS: Alter Ego went out to just board. about everybody. So, let’s face it, Glen, you were a Big Name Fan. BS: The photos show you sitting outside, like on his back porch. JOHNSON: I was! What was the general gist of the conversation? BS: [laughs] You published The Comic Reader , you were published JOHNSON: We talked about our in the top fanzines… favorite artists, who Russ Manning liked, how he got his start in comic JOHNSON: I was also a charter books, and things like that. We member of CAPA-Alpha . I were there from 1:00 till 9:00. I felt published an apa-zine called Small lucky that an artist of Russ’ caliber Talk for years. I don’t have those would spend all that time with us. CAPA-Alpha s any more. After I dropped out of the apa, somebody BS: It was certainly one of the offered me a fabulous amount of earliest fan meetings of any signif - money for my collection. icance. The first New York Comic Con, such as it was, didn’t happen BS: It’s not too surprising that you’d for another couple of months. end up in that very famous photo Your visit with Russ was in May, with Russ Manning, Bill Spicer, so this was one of those fan-meets, Richard Kyle, John McGeehan, and probably the first significant one Rick Durell in a meeting in May of in California, that led up to the 1964 at Manning’s house. You were comicons. Did people bring things the guy who kind-of sparked that to show to each other? meeting, weren’t you? A page of Russ Manning’s art for the Dell comic adaptation of the 1959 film JOHNSON: I came such a great JOHNSON: We were going out to Ben-Hur , reproduced from the original art in Bill Schelly’s collection. distance, I didn’t bring anything, California, and Russ Manning and I [©2005 the respective copyright holders.] [Captain Marvel, Shazam & Billy Batson TM & ©2005 DC Comics—from an original cover done for a Brazilian comic.] 85 “…And Then There Were None!” —The Corrections The Sequel To “Charlton And The Remnants Of The Empire” by Frank “Capitol” Motler OTE: In Alter Ego #39, 40, 42, & 43, NN British fan Frank Motler presented a detailed study of how, in the early to mid- 1950s and later, Charlton Publications, often known as CDC for its Capitol Distribution arm, took over both the titles and often inventory of several comics companies which were leaving the comic book business. Chief among these was Fawcett, which folded its four-color tents in late 1953. Inevitably in a work of this scope, errors would sneak in, and additional information would become available from people who saw the article and had knowledge of particular areas or details. Below, Frank has listed, under the heading of each of the four issues of A/E in which his piece was serialized, the corrections and additions known to date of his study. A number of these were sent by Boyd Magers, while others are based on Frank’s own researches during the past year. It is hoped that anyone else having additional information will contact Frank directly or through Alter Ego . —Roy. A/E #39: P. 49: The last sentence of the bottom caption The Case Of The Clueless Comics should read: “Cover art for Romantic Story #25 (Aug. It didn’t take Scotland Yard or Sherlock Holmes —both of which starred in their own Charlton series 1954) is by Leon Winik & Ray Osrin.” The artist of in 1955-56, as witness these first-issue covers—to correct the handful of errors and omissions in our Romantic Secrets #17 (Aug. 1958) remains unknown four-part “Fawcett-Charlton Connection” series. All it required was a bit of sleuthing by Frank to me, but long-time collector Steven Whitaker thinks Motler himself, and by Western film expert Boyd Magers. [© 2005 the respective copyright owners.] it is Dick Giordano. A/E #40: Charlton Was A Real Sweetheart P. 46: TNT Comics (Feb. 1946) was published by “Carlton Publishing Co.,” not “Charlton Publishing Company.” Since we showed the other Charlton romance covers P. 47: Burton N. Levey is the name given as that of the co-owner; it covered in this mini-article was not misspelled, as the accompanying “[sic]” notation implied. in earlier issues, here’s another scan Frank sent us at the time: the cover A/E #42 of Sweethearts #46 P. 49: There is an error in the text and accompanying caption. (Dec. 1958), which was Charlton published Maco Toys (1959) on behalf of the toy company; it a continuation of the had nothing to do with Blue Bird, a shoe-store chain, or with the popular Fawcett romance comics published by Charlton on their behalf. On Dec 16, 2004, Boyd comic for which Marc Swayze drew numerous Magers was kind enough to write to Alter Ego and confirm certain stories. This cover facts, whilst pointing out some errors in this third installment of my spotlighted popular 1950s article. Boyd is an acknowledged authority on Western films & their singer Jimmie Rodgers, stars. He has also written several books on Western movies, consulted whose hits “Honeycomb” on many others, and hosted film celebrity panels, and is the publisher of and “Kisses Sweeter Than Western Clippings magazine for more than ten years. I am happy to Wine” led to his long- correct these errors here. running “Spaghetti-Os” ad on TV and his own P. 52: “Tim Holt” did not appear in Six-Gun Heroes , or any other TV series. [©2005 Charlton comic. He was a Magazine Enterprise star (later, as Red Mask ) the respective and more recently has appeared in Bill Black’s AC Comics title Best of copyright holders.] the West . This was my error, confusing “Monte Hale” (who did appear ~ 89 CAPITAO MARVEL MEETS LA TOCHA HUMANA When Titans Clashed—In Brazil Introduction by John G. Pierce y discovery of Brazilian comics, in the early 1980s, early classic battles with the Sub-Mariner. As for Captain Marvel, there’s remains one of the highlights no comparison. Cap’s stories were so MM of my fannish life. And clever, so out of the ordinary for super- among the most astounding heroes, that there’s no way that this of the Brazilian lore would have to be the particular tale can come close. Remove the continued existence, through 1968, of Human Torch and the notion of a Captain Marvel and his Family, with the crossover, and it seems rather routine. But first installment of a tale reprinted here of it is, I think, a fairly entertaining story, and particular note. of course, for us, the novelty more than compensates for any defects the script and Inter-company crossovers were still art might have. relatively new at the time I discovered this story. The first Superman Vs. Spider-Man Thanks are due to many people. First of book had appeared only a few years earlier. all, Dwight Decker, who first put me in They’ve become somewhat “old hat” by touch with Brazilian collector Jose now (yet one more example of how the Jefferson Barbosa de Aquino, and who, comics field often manages to deliver too incidentally, also urged me to write about much of a good thing), but back then, they my discoveries for fanzines, starting with were still a novelty. So to discover that a Amazing Heroes . Brazilian correspon - crossover had been published in 1964 was dents, including the late “Jeff” (as he even more amazing—and that it had preferred to be called), along with Luiz featured two characters who by 1964 had Antonio Sampaio, Jose Carlos Neves, and been defunct for quite a few years was even Emir Ribeiro, among others, have proven more so. invaluable, not to mention exceedingly generous, in supplying me with Brazilian It is important to remember, however, comics. A/E editor Roy Thomas and FCA that for Brazilian readers at the time, it was editor P.C. Hamerlinck are to be not an inter-company crossover at all. commended for their interest in the subject Rather, both characters, along with many matter. Finally, a big thanks to the trans - other features, were appearing in comics lator, Mark Luebker, whose knowledge of from the same publisher. The idea of the Portuguese easily surpasses my own, and team-up was probably a novelty—and as whose translation is presented here. far as I know, there were no others in any way comparable to it—but it was not, for The cover of the 100-page comic which showcased the All of us involved hope you enjoy this them, an inter-company teaming. (The Captain Marvel/Human Torch team-up. Among other first presentation of a comic book first. exception, naturally, would be those features, it also reprinted what seems to be a Fawcett “Lash Brazilian readers who were knowledgeable LaRue” story, and a tale starring “Aguia Negra,” who Credits for “Return of a Great Hero”: appears to be the circa-1960 Australian super-hero “Sir about US comics.) ,” who was covered last issue. [©2005 the respective Appeared in: Almanaque do O Globo But, though I’ve written about that copyright holders; Captain Marvel TM & ©2005 DC Comics; Juvenil Lash LaRue, Sir Falcon, Robin Hood, Billy the Kid, & Wyatt hitherto-unknown team-up of Fawcett’s Earp TM & ©2005 the respective copyright holders.] Published in Brazil - 1964 original Captain Marvel and Timely’s original Human Torch before (including Illustrated by Rodriguez Zelis back in FCA #60/ Alter Ego V3#1, 1999), English-speaking fans haven’t REPRINT CREDITS: had the chance to actually read it. Now, at long last, two of its pages are being presented—translated into English—in the pages of Alter Translation, Lettering, 1950s Fawcett Title Page Adaptation: Mark Ego/FCA . We hope to show you more such pages in the near future. Luebker

Art Restoration and Gray Tones: Matt Moring Is the story up to the standards of the two features from which it is drawn? Hard to say. I’ve read no more than a handful of stories of the Additional Art Restoration (page 11 & up): John Gentil original Human Torch, and based on that, I’d say that the story probably equals or surpasses many of them, except, of course, for his Special Thanks: John G. Pierce, Rodrigo M. Zeidan, Matt Gore [Art ©2005 the respective copyright holders; Captain Marvel TM & ©2005 DC Comics.] 90 hnTtn Clashed–– Titans When nBrazil In SU NPITO IIA FORMAT! DIGITAL OR PRINT IN ISSUE n more! and SCHELLY, BILL MONSTER, BIRO CHARLES SCHAFFEN- GIACOIA, BERGER, MOLDOFF, DILLIN, SWAN, SEKOWSKY, and GIELLA JOE http://twomorrows.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=98_55&products_id=320 FYUEJYDTI PREVIEW, THIS ENJOYED YOU IF LC H IKT RE THIS ORDER TO LINK THE CLICK UI SCHWARTZ, JULIE n others, and nteSle g tD,teGle g tMarvel, at Age Golden the DC, at Age Silver the on , ATNTHALL MARTIN 10pg magazine) (100-page LE G #52 EGO ALTER DgtlEdition) (Digital A CT PIKE SCOTT JAY ihrr r by art rare with LXTT,MR. TOTH, ALEX interview, $2.95 GIELLA on NATN,GLKANE, GIL INFANTINO, $6.95 TNLEE STAN cover! and