way, is not the same. It is as if justice is condemned to being an abstract CSD Interview noun. That enables all kinds of people to speak of justice in various and con- flicting ways. It even allows rogues to take refuge in talk of justice. Think of US vice–president Dick Cheney’s dec- laration that ‘water boarding’, the tor- ture under water and forced confession of prisoners, is an act of ‘justice’. Or President Bush: ‘I want justice’, he The Beauty of said shortly after the 11 September 2001 attacks, ‘and there’s an old poster out West I recall that said “Wanted, Dead or Alive”.’ Aren’t these exam- Justice ples of the way the notion of justice is demeaned by its abstractness?

Justice is a complicated subject. There is of course no ‘justice-ing’ in English, though with a bit of linguistic manoeuvring one can create the verb ‘to do justice’ to somebody or some- thing. The same is true in Persian and Arabic. But the most important thing Abdolkarim Soroush is Iran’s most prominent and controversial is this: both linguistic strategy and conceptual analysis make it abun- philosopher and public intellectual. In November 2006 he was the dantly clear that while justice is not a verb or an action, it is often used as an subject of the annual CSD Encounter (see ‘CSD Events’, p. 20). adjective. The field of ethics tells you when and in which context actions are Shortly after the Encounter John Keane interviewed him. just, that is, justified. Here justice works as an adjective: justified lying, justified killing, or justified stealing. Justice implies the justification of action. This is how John Rawls’s A Theory of Justice proceeds. It tries to John Keane: You said recently that the concept of justice is deeply rooted in say that certain inequalities are justi- topic of justice (adalat) is back on the the teachings of Islam, it is what he fied inequalities. Justice is also a polit- political agenda in your country. You prefers to talk about. His election ical concept. It is the link between pol- contrasted the ‘era of the slogan of promises included the commitment to itics and ethics: politics becomes freedom’ under President Khatami provide ‘full justice’ to the poor and ethical through justice. Justice is a with the emergent ‘era of the slogan of the deprived. Of course, everyone concept that governs both politics and justice’ championed by Mr knows that liberty and justice are ethics. Ahmadinejad. What did you mean? twins. There can be no justice without liberty. When I spoke about the differ- So could we say that justice is about Abdolkarim Soroush: The discourse ent slogans of the two presidencies, I the right ordering of contexts – that of justice wasn’t prominent in Iran wanted to challenge Mr Ahmadinejad: ‘justice is a relationship of suitability during the two presidencies of Mr since you are for justice, you should be which actually exists between two Khatami. He came to power through for liberty as well. things’, as Montesquieu famously put elections, and that was significant. it in his Persian Letters? Or is it per- Elections not only reinforced his per- Among the many strange things about haps better to say that justice is a mat- sonal interest in liberty; they also rein- the word justice, you’ve pointed out, ter of rights, that it entails the entitle- forced the felt need of Iranian society is that in Persian, as in English, there ments of people, and their obligations for liberty. Later, people seemed to is no cognate verb for ‘justice’. We to one another in any given context? grow tired of Khatami’s slogans about have laughing, kissing, arresting or freedom. That paved the way for the murdering, but we do not have ‘jus- The definition of justice as the fulfil- new president, Mr Ahmadinejad. He tice-ing’. The verb to justify, as when ment of rights or, as in Plato and isn’t a profound thinker, but he is sup- we give reasons for doing something, Aristotle, the paying of debts, is much posed to be firmly religious. Since the or when we line up a text in an orderly clearer, if only because it confines

8 | CSD BULLETIN | SUMMER 2007 | VOL 14 NOS 1&2 itself to human beings. But I like wanted to say is that, Montesquieu’s old definition of justice since justice is an as putting things in their right place. adjective, it can be Even though it doesn’t tell us much used to cover and jus- about what to do or what to avoid, it tify any natural action. assumes that things in the universe Justice is not a virtue have potentially a right order that can over and above other be discovered, and then can be used to virtues in any given guide action. According to Rumi, the system of morality. Persian mystic, watering flowers is a When you are a moral just action, whereas watering thorns is person then you are a unjust because it is a misuse of water. just person. It resem- In Arabic, justice – adalat – means bal- bles the way Frank P. ance in this sense. For instance, if the Ramsey speaks about whole universe has a balanced archi- the redundancy of tecture, if it is not distorted, then it is truth. He doesn’t mean said to be just. This idea of justice as that there is no truth in balance overlaps with a rights-based the world. He rather conception of justice. To speak of means that when you rights is to speak of obligations. A just say ‘p’ is true, then the person, we could say, is someone who words ‘is true’ are strikes a balance between rights and redundant because ‘p’ obligations by fulfilling both in a justi- states what is the case. fied way. Here there is an anal- ogy with justice, for The principle that all matters should when we speak of moral virtues or But here we come to the issue of be decided justly lies at the spiritual actions, by definition we are speaking whether or not there are universal and political heart of Islam. There are of justified states of affairs. standards of justice. Montesquieu is many well-known passages in the This has important practical impli- again interesting. ‘Justice is eternal’, Qur’an, but this one puzzles me: ‘Let cations, for any particular moral value he wrote, ‘and doesn’t depend on not the enmity of others make you cannot be sacrificed for the sake of jus- human conventions; even if it were to sway from justice; be just, that is only tice, simply because justice is not a depend on them this truth would be a nearer to taqwa' (5:42). What does this separate value. You cannot say, for terrible one, and we should have to mean? example, that you performed an unjus- conceal it from ourselves.’ How do you tified action in order to attain justice. react to that way of thinking about This verse is among the most impor- This would be a fallacy. If you do think justice? tant in the Qur’an. Wisely, you didn’t that justice is a different entity, then translate taqwa. It isn’t fully translat- you can of course sacrifice a whole This is a wonderfully clever and poetic able. It means something like virtue, ethical system for the sake of this sup- statement. But although people con- piety, fearfulness of God, abstention posed justice. When studying Marxist stantly strive both for justice and from committing sins. . . ethics, I was struck by the way its pro- sometimes even a universal definition of justice, I doubt that they can or will Justice seems to be ever get there. For the most we can subordinate to ‘A just person, we could say, is some- achieve is an interpretation of justice – taqwa? a definition of what counts as justice. one who strikes a balance between Such interpretations are of course con- Yes. This verse says ventional and provisional, and they that justice should rights and obligations by fulfilling both differ from each other. be done in order to get closer to taqwa, in a justified way.’ Within contemporary discussions of which is seen as the justice, scholars like to emphasize its highest virtue one different grammars, the different can reach. Justice is a kind of ladder to ponents talked all the time about jus- kinds of equalities these grammars taqwa. tice. They were ready to sacrifice imply, and to stress that the language everything moral for the sake of jus- of justice and equality are often rid- Elsewhere you’ve spoken, rather para- tice. But justice is not an independent dled with paradoxes. The most obvi- doxically, about the redundancy of jus- virtue: it is a myth to think that it is, ous example is the tension between tice… and that is why I said that justice is justice understood as equality of redundant. Justice is the sum of all results and justice defined as equality I had something else in mind. What I moral virtues. of opportunity, a form of equality that

CSD BULLETIN | SUMMER 2007 | VOL 14 NOS 1&2 | 9 typically results in the opponents of to democratic freedoms is a subset of unequal outcomes, in this virtue need it justice. ‘winners’ and ‘losers’. in order to express Doesn’t your point their opposition to Are there standards of justice that cut about the interpreted liberty. Liberty is a across borders and that should apply to quality of justice lead in necessary condi- people whom we may never meet, the same direction, so tion of itself. This whose language we don’t speak, or that the politics of jus- is another way of whose beliefs we don’t share? tice has to grapple with making your point, questions of pluralism, and it is a very I wish that we could have cross-border complexity and contra- curious feature of discussions about justice. The reality dictoriness? justice: in order to is that nation states look out only for air our differences their own interests. The time when we Absolutely. I endorse about justice, we shall decide matters of global justice is fully Isaiah Berlin's need a just, that is, far off. Globalization nevertheless point that there are nec- democratic system makes global justice, backed up by essarily contradictory of institutions global institutions of power, necessary positions in ethics. I within which we and desirable. The trouble is that always compare the sci- can handle our dif- political power is currently distrib- ence of ethics with the ferences. uted unevenly, so that issues of global science of logic. The sci- justice are distorted, for instance by ence of logic is consis- This, of course, interventions of the American super- tent; different methods raises a tricky power. of deducing results from question: who certain premises are should be the jus- Do you see any prospects for counter- consistent with one tice makers? balancing this power through the lan- another. But no such Given that we are guage of human rights as a major consistency proof exists always immersed cross-border medium of justice? for any given system of in an ocean of morality. Nobody has ever proved interpretations, and since therefore I do. While the Universal Declaration that virtue/value A is necessarily con- justice is also a matter of interpreta- of Human Rights was mainly drafted sistent with virtue/value B, tion – of ijtihad – who should properly by Europeans, and although other virtue/value C, and so on. In matters decide which people get what, when nations would need to be involved in of ethics, we are confronted by poten- and how? any new human rights declaration, the tially inconsistent virtues. That is present charter talks about concrete why we have no alternative but to It’s not for me to say who should cases, rather than about abstract ideas choose from among different virtues decide. If I tried, nobody would be of justice, and that is why it has and values and, on that basis, to select required to listen to me, or to any deservedly won widespread accep- our priorities. other authority. Some people say that tance. Most of the Declaration is com- religion or God must decide what is patible with Islamic values. Other If different values and virtues are just. Others say reason, or the collec- parts have an uneasy relationship with potentially incommensurable Islam. But let us remember: then doesn’t this imply the a declaration of rights will need for something more never be sufficient unless it basic than justice – if you like, ‘Shi’ites say that future justice will be is complemented by a decla- an earthly complement to ration of responsibilities, of taqwa in the shape of institu- global, that it will be for everyone, not just the kind proposed by the tions that enable the peaceful InterAction Council [of flourishing of different lived for a particular community, be it Shi’ites or Former Heads of State and understandings of justice? Government] in 1997. Doesn’t the human capacity Sunnis, or for that matter Christians.’ We need such docu- for concocting different and ments, and great pains conflicting notions of justice should be taken to draft new – values and virtues – make versions. Mind you, democracy both possible and neces- tive reason of the masses should whereas duties constitute sufficient sary? decide, but disagreements persist. In explanation for actions, rights do not. order to resolve these disputes, I think When, for instance, I am telling the Yes. In my book Reason, Freedom and we need free institutions that enable truth it suffices to say, by way of Democracy, I have similarly argued dialogue about how to reach better, explanation, that it is my duty to do that liberty is a value, and that even more justifiable outcomes. The right so. But I cannot say that I am telling

10 | CSD BULLETIN | SUMMER 2007 | VOL 14 NOS 1&2 the truth because it is my right, since pered from thinking about just gov- overlooks the whole, and who cares you may retort that you equally have ernment simply because they saw about people. Abrahamic religions the right not to do so. The point is that themselves as merely biding their embrace an energetic God. They sup- the language of rights is not spacious time on earth, as waiting for their true pose that history has a teleological enough to accommodate justifications saviour? quality, that humans are guided by an or explanations of all our potential invisible hand. actions. We need something more. We When the hidden Imam didn’t appear, This non-secular way of thinking need not only a concept of rights but the early Shi’ites indeed were forced to about the world is at odds with doom- also a concept of justice in order to jus- think anew about politics, ethics and laden suppositions about a tired and tify or explain actions. justice. Some of them continued to overburdened God. There is an impor- believe that the hidden Imam would tant verse in the Qur’an directed You said that Islamic values are in ten- reappear only when the world became against those who think that God’s sion with parts of the Declaration of corrupt. So they felt they had no duty energy has been dissipated by the Human Rights. Which articles do you not to allow the world to degenerate, Creation, and by intervention in our have in mind? in order to hasten the reappearance of affairs. It says that God never grows tired, that He is always dili- The principle of freedom of gent and active – and will religion is something about ‘Rumi emphasized that ugliness comes forth remain so in the future. It fol- which Muslim scholars and lows from this that the future clerics are not altogether from us, so that when we change ourselves is open. Preconceived judge- happy. The same applies to ments about the future the principle that men and the whole world looks more beautiful.’ should be rejected because, as women are equal in every Popper said, they are not fal- respect. But these same sifiable. Since we do not scholars and clerics still support many the Imam. Shi’ites no longer think know what awaits us, let us not lose other points made by the Declaration, this. Instead they say that future jus- our optimism about the possibility of which is an excellent means of bring- tice will be global, that it will be for creating a better balance within our ing nations together and building a everyone, not just for a particular own actions. consensus on what counts as global community, be it Shi’ites or Sunnis, or rights and duties. for that matter Christians. This is a Some find puzzling that your opti- most welcome development, as is the mism is sustained by looking back Do you think global justice might shattering and collapse of the Marxist over your shoulder, towards the past have religious sources? paradigm of justice throughout the world of mystical thinking and Muslim world. The upshot is that all Persian mystics like Rumi. There is one principle that has definite Muslims are today striving for justice, religious roots: the principle that we for a better future for all. It is quite the opposite of a backward should treat others as we would like way of thinking. I always remember them to treat us. While I’m aware of Don’t you ever worry that such devel- that in his Mysticism and Logic, its limitations, this principle is opments as the rapid disappearance of Bertrand Russell remarks that even if appealing because it draws upon our species from our biosphere and the mysticism were wrong it rightly selfishness. It makes our self a crite- dangers of nuclear war threaten to rob emphasizes the beauties of the world. I rion for deciding what should be done us of a future, so that Hans Jonas and have learned from Rumi and other to others, for example in the conduct others are right when they say that of friendship and the keeping of our understanding of justice for promises. It specifies as well what we future generations must from hereon should not do to others, for instance be fuelled by expectations of doom, torturing or murdering them. The not bliss? principle is highly fertile, and most clauses of the Declaration of Human This is an anti–religious way of Rights are derived from it. It is a norm thinking. Hans Jonas was flung into that sets minimum standards of jus- deep pessimism by the Holocaust. It tice convinced him that God had expended all his energy in the Doesn’t the appeal to our selfishness Creation, and was therefore too tired downplay vital questions about to prevent such disasters. I reject unborn generations? And doesn’t this. All religions are optimistic Islam have a rather limited under- about the future, even when con- standing of justice for future genera- fronted with the signs of doom that tions? Think of the early Shi’ites. Like you mention. From a religious view- the first Christians, weren’t they ham- point, there is always somebody who

CSD BULLETIN | SUMMER 2007 | VOL 14 NOS 1&2 | 11 mystics to respect these beauties. Justice and freedom are among them. Rumi emphasized that ugliness comes forth from us, so that when we change Language-Games ourselves the whole world looks more beautiful. But aren’t you also impressed by the of the Nation mystics’ profound suspicion of power and wealth?

Yes. The mystics were not against power and wealth per se, but they dis- liked the way hunger for their accu- mulation results in the victimization of others. There is much that is posi- We can use Wittgenstein’s ideas to develop a new approach to tive to be learned from the mystics. Their teachings can be translated into national identification, argues Amanda Machin a modern idiom, in effect to say that power and wealth need to be distrib- uted justly so that we are not seduced, deceived and ultimately misled by their false charms. or centuries, the fortress of nation with instituting it – is that they have Seen in this way, there is a notice- has loomed on the social horizon, already made a mistake: they presup- able mystical dimension in the mod- Fcasting its shadow over the ham- pose that national identity is a matter ern traditions of socialism and democ- lets and habits of humankind. Many of rational choice. Belonging to a racy. Whereas the former strives for suggest, however, that the battering nation, however, is more often an oblig- the just distribution of wealth, the lat- rams of globalization are knocking at atory identification, instituted by the ter envisages the just distribution of the fortress walls, ready to alter the language and concepts of a society we power. Both in fact share a disdain for social landscape irrevocably. The world are born into – and which pervade our the unequal accumulation of wealth foreseen is truly global, one in which everyday lives. These sorts of non- and power – a distaste for inequality territorial borders have dissolved and rational identifications are ignored in that is not at all alien to the core val- identities are trans-national, sub- political theory today, so that main- ues of the mystics. national, post-national, anything-but- stream politics is dominated by a ratio- national. nalism that calculates only in terms of John Keane interviewed Abdolkarim Why then, is the nation still hanging the self-interested subject. Soroush in November 2006. on by its ageing fingertips? Why, more- A different approach to national over, is national identity actually identification is desperately needed. championed by governments and ana- Although Wittgenstein does not him- lysts today? Is this merely a cynical self explicate a political theory, his appeal to the parochial views of nar- ideas can open up the new approach row-minded voters? Or is something required. From a Wittgensteinian per- else going on? spective we can see that the nation The question of national identity becomes an object of identification has been further highlighted in Britain because it is used in everyday life. It is recently by terrorist actions and plots not so much in formal politics and aca- perpetrated not by foreign extremists demic theory, but in a whole variety of but by British citizens. Some sort of contexts – history books and atlases, strong common identity, it is hinted, newspapers and tourist brochures, foot- might assuage the apparent cleavages ball matches and music awards – that between sections of the population the nation finds its existence. (what are often – problematically – seen as the homogenous categories ‘Muslim’ PRIMORDIALIST THINGS, and ‘non–Muslim’). The same question RATIONALIST HATS was asked in France after the riots of It was German romanticism, perhaps, 2005. But how is an inclusive and over- that most ardently proclaimed the ‘pri- arching national identity established? mordialist’ account of the nation. The problem with both these phe- Divine and eternal, the nation was held nomena – the attempt to reject national to be part of the fabric of the world. identity and the growing obsession Today, this idea is considered deeply

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