COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 16, 1975

Session of 1975 159th of the General Assembly Vol. 1, No. 81

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES October 7, 1975 To the Honorable, the House of Representatives of the The House convened at 9:30 a.m., e.d.t. Commonwealth of Pennsylvania: THE SPEAKER (Herbert Fineman) IN THE CHAIR I have the honor to inform you that I have this day approved and signed House bill No. 491, printer's No. 543, entitled "An Act implementing the provisions of section PRAYER 6 of Article I of the Constitution of Pennsylvania by pro- viding that a verdict may be rendered by five-sixths of REVEREND DOCTOR DAVID R. HOOVER, chaplain the Jury in a case." MILTON J. SHAPP of the House of Representatives and pastor of St. Paul's Governor Lutheran Church, McConnellsburg, Pennsylvania, offered the following prayer: October 2, 1975 Almighty and Everlasting Father, Thou art the great To the Honorable, the House of Representatives of the architect of heaven and earth, and dost promise that Of where two or three are gathered together in Thy name I have the honor to inform you that I have this day Thou wilt be in ihe midst of them. In this morning hour approved and signed House bill No. 678, printer's No. 1355, entitled "An Act amending the act of May I 1933 (P. L. we do come together in Thy name. We invoke Thy bless- 103, ~?.,69), e~hesecond class Tol;nship code,, ing upon this assemblage and we pray that Thy continued a,uthorizlng appropriations for observances and celebra- blessing may ever rest upon us. 0 God, we especially "ens." ask Thee to grant Thy care and protection to the mem- MILTON J. SHAPP Governor bers of this House of Revresentatives. enable them to haie a concern for the welfare of others as well as them- October 7, 1975 selbe:, and may the work of their hands redound to Thy To the Honorable, the House of Representatives of the name's honor and glory. Amen. Commonwealth of Pennsylvania: I have the honor to inform you that I have this day JOURNAL APPROVAI, POSTPONED approved and signed House bill No. 854, printer's No. 1833, entitled "An Act amending the act of July 20, 1974 The SPEAICER. Without objection, approval of the (No. 198), entitled 'Pennsylvania Solid Waste-Resource R~~~~~~~ Drvelopment Act,8 providing for demonstration Journal for Wednesday, October 15, 1975, will be post- projects; providing for grants; imposing powers and duties poned until printed. on the Department of Environmental Resources and the Envi:onmental Quality Board and making an appropria- tion, except for the appropriation of $2,000,000 as pro- vidcd in section 6 of the act. I withhold my approval COMMUNICATION FROM GOVERNOR from this item because funds are not available in the Development Fund for appropriation, and on that basis, The Secretary to the Governor, being introduced, Pre- Article 8, section 13(a) of the Pennsylvania Constitution sented the following con~municationin writing from Ilis Prevents me from approving the appropriation. However, I support the program contained in this act, Excellency, the Governor, which was read: and will submit tu the General Assembly legislation to make funds available from the General Fund to carry APPROVAL OF IiOUSE BILLS Nos. 240. 491, 678, out the purposes of this act. 854, 9'16, 1367 and 1660. MILTON J. SHAPP Governor October 2, 1975 October 7, 1975 To the Honorable, the House of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania: To the Honorable, the House of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvan~a: I have the honor to inform yon that I have this day approved and signed House bill No. 996, printer's No. 1142, entitled "An Act amending the act of June 24, 1931 (P. L; 1206, Np., 3311, fntitled 'The First Class Township Code, authorizing appropriations for observances and celebrzt~ons." MILTON J. SHAPP Governor October 15, 1975 MILTON J. SHAPP To the Honorable, the House of Representatives of the Governor Commonwealth of Pennsylvania: LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

- - I have the honor to inform you that I have this day The clerk of tine Senate, being introduced, returned hill approved and signed House bill NO. 1367, printer's No. from the House of Representatives numbered and en- 2273, entitled "An Act relatlng to med~ealand health re- lated malpractice insurance, prescrlblng the powers and titled as duties of the Insurance Department; providing for a joint underwriting plan; the [Regional] Arbitration Panels HOUSE BILL No, 3,3 for Health Care, compulsor~screening of elalms; Collateral A, ~~t amending the act of December 31 1965 (P. L. sources requirement; [limitation of Statute of Limits- 1257, NO. 511), entitled "The Local Tax ~Aahling~ct," tions;] limitation on contingent fee compensation; estab- providing for notice to employes prior to filing a notice lishing [the Patients' Compensation Fund;] A,CATAS- and demand for collection of delinquent taxes with em- TROPHE LOSS FUND; and prescrlb~ngpenalties. ployers. MILTON J. SHAPP With information that the Senate has passed the same Governor without amendment. October 8, 1975 To the Honorable, the House of Representatives of the SENATE MESSAGE Commonwealth of Pennsylva~a: AMENDED HOUSE BILL RETURNED FOR I have the honor to inform you that I have this day CONCURRENCE approved and signed House hill No. 1660, printer's No. 2071, entitled "An Act amending the act of July 20, 1968 The clerk of the Senate, being introduced, returned bill (P. L. 652, No. 220), ent~tled'An act amendlng the act from the House of Representatives numbered and entitled of March 31, 1949 (P,L, 372, No, 34), entitled act to promote the welfare of the people of the Common- wealth; creating The General State Authority as a body corporate and politic w~thpower to construct, improve, No. equip, furnish, and operate proiects, and to lease the A, ~~t amending the act of January 19, 1968 (1967, same, and to fix fees, rentals, and charges for the use p. L. 996, NO. 443), entitled "The Land and Water Con- thereof; authorizing and regulating the issuance of bonds servation and ~~~l~m~tio~Act," granting the Secretary for said Authority, and providing for the payment of of Environmental Resources the right to enter certain such bonds, and the rlghts of the holders thereof; and remises for the purpose of conserving and reclaiming to enter into agreements with the Government of the and resources; providing lor iiens upon such United States or any Federal agency; and authorizing the land;rand providing for the promulgation of rules and regu- Department of Property and Sllpplies to grant, assign, con- lations; and providing for rights of recovery for ahate- vey, or lease to the Authority land:, of the Commonwealth ment of emergency conditions, and interests therein, and to acquire lands therefor; granting the right ofeminent domain; empowering The With the inform~tionthat the Senate has passed the General State Authority to sell and convey projects and property to the Commonwealth; and providing that no with amendments iil which tile concurrence of the debt of the Commonwealth shall he incurred in the ex- of is requested. ercise of any of the powers granted by this act," em- nou~eringthe Authority to construct and acquire projects The SPEAKER. The bill will appear on the calendar. for certain State-related universities; providing for the disposition of unused borrowing capacity which may be- come available through the operation of the Higher Edu- PERMISSION TO ADDRESS HOUSE cation Facilities Act of 1963 or other Federal grants; har- monizing the language of eertaln exlstlng amendments; M,. GALLEN requested and obtained unanilnous eon- allocating unused funds; prov~dingfor the intepretation of certain amendments to the act; further defining the sent to address the House. powers and procedures of the board; regulating the leas- Mr. GALLEN. Mr. Speaker, thank you. ing of projects constructed for State-aided institutions; Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a few brief re- amending the eminent domain powers and procedures of the Authority; specifically itemizing projects for capital marks and I comment today on the mismanagement of the budget purposes,' adding the acquisition of Temple Uni- System. versity Hospital as an additional project and deleting the If the Shapp Administration and the Liquor Control authorization for construction of one of the -projects." ~ Bozrd williullv set out to eouduet this maior business enterprise in a manner which would discredit it with MILT~NJ, sHAPP Governor the public, it could not devise methods more revolting than those presently employed. This regulatory agency was among those under as- SENATE MESSAGE Isault by Mr. Consumer Protection, Milton Shapp, prior AMENDED SENATE BILL N~.196 CONCURRED M to the time that he gained control in January 1972. After BY SENATE taking control, he said this, "I have charged the new hoard to hold the line on liquor prices and to recorm The clerk of the Senate, being introduced, informed Pennsylvania's antiquated system." that the Senate has concurred in the amendments made M,. Speaker, in the neariy 4 yer.rs since Mr. Shapp look by the House of Representatives to Senate bill nUm- over the Liquor Control Board, it has steadily sunk in hered and entitled as follows: nublic resued. Service to consumers has deteriorated. SENATE BILL NO. 196 Costs have gone up without resistance from the Gover- nor. The most recent cost increase was applied covertly An Act amending the act of April.9, 1929 (P. L. 177, by the board when it approved reduction of the alcohol No. 175), entitled "The Adminlstratlve Code of 1929," provld,ng for a State Board of Physical Therapy Exam. content of whiskey in state stores. The lowering of iners in the Department of State. standards from 86 to 80 proof was approved, but the price ner bottle remained where it was. This in effect means that consumers are now paying 7 percent more. The at- SENATE MESSAGE titudes of consumers, centering on the Governor's "big- HOUSE BILL CONCURRED IN BY SENATE 1 promise,A little-performance" approach to consumer pro- 1976. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE 3025 tection are being further aggravated by the board's fail- DeMeao Katz Perrf Vann ure to provide an adequate stock of popular brands. Kelly, A. P. Perry Vroon ~~~~~~ Kelly. J. B. Petrarea Wagner Throughout the state embarassed store managers and DiDonato Kerniek Pievsky Wansac= clerks face disgruntled shoppers and have to say, that is ::Et&, Ki~tler ~~tts Wargo Klingaman Polite Weidner also not in stock. Conscientious employes of the state ~~~b~-K~~~~~ Pratt Westerberg store system have long tried to bring consumer com- Dorr Kolter Prrndergast Whelan Kowalyshyn Pyles Whittl-y plaints about lack of stock to the administration's atten- ~~~~~elh,,KUSS~ Rappaport Wilmn tion. Their complaints and recommendations go ignored. Eckensberger LaMarca Reed Wilt, R. W. The distillery firms deny any responsibility for the fail- Laudadio Renninger Wilt, W. W. Laughlln Renwick Wojaa, ure of the state board to provide adequate supplies of F~~ Ledrrer Rhades Worrflow leading brands in the stores. They say that the respon- F;z;E Lehr Richardson Wright Letterman Rieger Yahner sibility rests squarely upon the decisionmakers of the Levi Ritter Yohn Shapp administration. Foster. A. Lincoln Romanem Zearfoas Mr. Speaker, it is quite possible that continuing mis- Lynb ROSS Zeller g::z W. Mandrrino Ruggiero Zord m~nagementof the liquor system in Penmylvdnia is noth- ~~n.~h~~Manmlller Byan Zwikl ing more than the work of a conspiracy to discredit the Gallen McCaU Saloom control system so that it will be thrown out and given, McClatehy Salvatore Fineman. EzLzy McCue Scheaffer Speaker through some patronage process, into the hands of ceis~e~ "cronies" of the Governor. The public has observed continuing scandals in this NOT VOTING-7 administration. I insist that the Governor and the Liquor Butera Gleeson ~ilanovich Wash. T. P. Control Board discontinue the unbusinesslike methods Davie Mecraw valicentl now being employed in the state store system and reverse The SPEAKER. One hundred ninety-five members the procedures which have resulted in destroying employe having indicated their presence, a master roll is estab- morale and raising public suspicion. lished. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. IZECONSIDERATION OF VOTE ON LEAVES OF ABSENCE SENATE BILL NO. 792 The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the majority Mr. TAYOUN moved that the vote by which SENATE whip. BILL No. 792, printer's No. 854, entitled: Mr. MANDLRINO. Mr. Speaker, I have no requests An Act making an appropriation to the New Year's for leaves of absence. Shooters and Mummers Museum, Inc., Philadelphia, lYle SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the minority Pennsylvania, for maintenance and general operation. whip. was defeated on final passage on Wednesday, October 15, Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, I request leaves of absence 1975, be reconsidered. for the gentleman from Berks, Mr. DAVIES, for today's Mr. MYERS seconded the motion. session because of the death of his mother, and for Mr. BUTERA for today's session. On the question, The SP'NKER. Without objection, leaves are granted. Will the House agree to the motion? Motion was agreed to. MASTER ROLL CALL On the question recurring, Shall the bill pass finally? The SPEAKER. The Chair is about to take today's master roll. SENATE BILL No. 792 PLACED ON FINAL PASSAGE POSTPONED CALENDAR The roll was taken and was as follows: Mr. TAYOUN moved that SENATE BlLL No. 792 be YEAS-195 placed on the final passage postponed calendar. Abraham George McGInnis Schmitt On the question, Anderson. J. E Giammarca McIntyre Schweder Arthm Giilespie McLane Scirlea Will the House agree to the motion? Barber Giilette Mebw Seltzer Motion was ag-reed to. Beilomlnl Gleason Menhorn Shane Bennett Goodman Miller. M. E. Shelhamer Beren Green Miller, M. E..Jr. Shelton Berlln Greenfield Milliron shuman CALENDAR Benon Grleeo Miscevich Shupnik Bittle G"ng IMoehlmann Siriannl Blackwell H31verson MUP~S Smith. E. LAW AND JUSTICE BILL ON Benetto Hamiltan. 3. R. Mrkonie Smith. L. FINAL PASSAGE POSTPONED Bradley Hammock Mullen Spencer Brandt Hasay Muilen. M. P. Stshl Agreeable to order, Bmnner Haskell Murto Stapleton Bums Hayes. D. 9. Myers Stout The bill having been called up from the postponed cal- Caputo Hayes, S. E. Novak Sulllvan endar by Mr. REED the House resumed consideration on Cessar II~pford Noye Taddonio final passage of House bill No. 1509, printer's No. 2343, Ciminl IIiIl O'Brien Taylor Cohen Hopkins O'Connell Tayoun entitled: Cole Hutchinson. A. O'Donnell Toll Cowell 11utchin~n.W. O'Keele Thomas An Act amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of the Crawford ITVIS oiiver ~rello Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, prohibiting the carry- Cumherland Itkin Pancoast Turner ing of deadly weapons onto certain properties and pro- Da-ils. D. M. Johnson. J. Parker. R. 5. Ustynoskl viding a penalty. 3026 LEGISLATIVE JOURNAkHOUSE October 16,

The SPEAKER. This bill has been considered on three different days and agreed to and is now on final passage. George M~Intyre Schweder The question is, Shall the bill pass finally? Anderson, J. H. Glammarco McLane Scirica Arthurs Gilles~ie Mebus Seltzer T!he SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman ~illetie Menhorn Shanc ~~f~~nlGleason MilM. E. Shelhamer from Dauphin, Mr. Reed. Bennett Giee~on Miller, M. E.. Jr. Shelton Mr. REED. Mr. Speaker, I have an amendment that Goodman Milliron Shuman E:fg Green Misccvich Shupnik has been circulated already. Berson Grieeo Moehlmann Sirianni Bittle Halverson Morris Smith. E. Blackwell Hamilton. J. H. Mrkonic Smith. L. RECONSIDERATION OF VOTE ON Bradley Hammock Mulien. M. P Spencer Brandt Hasay Mullell Stahl HOUSE BILL No. 1509 Brunner Haskell Must0 Stapleton Burns Hayes, D. S. Myers stout Mr. REED moved that the vote by which HOUSE BILL Caputo Hayes. S. E. Novak Sullivan Hcpford Taddonio No. 1509, printer's No. 2343, was agreed to as amended g:gz Hill Taylor on third consideration on Wednesday, October 15, 1975, Cole Hopkins Tayoun be reconsidered. Cowell IIutchinson, A. Thomas Clawford Hutchinson, W. O'Kerfe Toll Mr. ECKENSBERGER seconded the motion. Cumberland 1rvis Oliver Trello Dams. D. M. Itkin Pancoast Turner On the question, Johnson. J. Parker. H. S. Ustynoskl Katz -Prrrl -~~. Vann Will the House agree to the motion? Kiiiy, A. P. Perry ~rooi Motion was agreed to. Kelly, J. B. Petrarca Wagner -.>.- Kernick Pievsky Wansacz Dininnl Kistler pitts Wargo On the question recurring, Dornbrowsld Kiin8-8n Polite Weidner Will the House agree- to the hill as amended on third ~orr Knepper Pratt Westerberg consideration? Doyle Kolter Prendergast Whelan Dreibelbis KoIv~~Ys~~~. . PYIBG Whittlesey Mr. REED requested and obtained unanimous consent E,.kensberger KU%C Hippaport Wllson to offer the following amendments, which were read: Englehart LaMarca Reed Wilt, R. W. FaWCett Laudadio Renninger Wilt. W. W. Amend See. 1 (Sec. 6163), page 2, line 16, by inserting Fee Laughlin Renwick Wojdak a period after "PROPERTY" Fischer Lehr Richardson Worrilow Amend Sec. 1 (Sec. 6163), page 2, lines 16 and 17, by Fisher Letterman Hifgcr Wright striking out "OR ONTO ANY" in line 16 and "PROP- Levi Hitter Yahner ERTY ADJACENT TO A SCHOOL FACILITY." in line zk:trTA, Lincoln Romunelli Yohn ," Foster.W, Lynch Ross Zcarfass 1,. Fryer hlanderino Ruggiero Zcller Amend Sec. 1 (Sec. 6163), page 2, by inserting between eallagber Manmiller Hyan Zord lines 25 and 26: (c) Exception.-Any portion of school Gallen MeCall Saloam Zwikl property designated by the school as an area where hunt- Garda McClstchy Salvatore ing is permissible shall be exempt from the provisions of Geesey McCue SchenRer Fineman, this section. Geisler McGinnis Schrnltt SPt Amend Sec. 1 (Sec. 6163), page 2, line 26, by striking out "(C)" and inserting: (d) On the question, I NOT VOTING-I2 Will the Hause agree to the amendments? Bonetto Davies Lederer Rhodes I Butera Greenfield McGraw VaUeentl The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Cohen Gring Milanovich Walsh, T. P. from Dauphin, Mr. Reed. The majority required by the Constitution having voted Mr. REED. Mr. Speaker, this is actually an amendment in the affirmative, the question was determined in the after the hill was acted upon yesterday. Mr. Dreibelbis, affirmative. whose district includes Penn State University, brought a Ordered, That the clei.1~present thc same to the Senate certain deficiency in the bill to my attention and we for concurrence, auicklv drafted an amendment and sent it back down. As far as I know, it is an agreed-to amendment. It simply says that any portion of school property des- UBBAN AFFAIRS BILL ON ignated by the school as an area where hunting is per- FINAL PASSAGE POSTPONED missible shall be exempt Crom the provisions of this act. Agreeable to order, On the question recurring, Tile bill having been called up from the postponed Will the House agree to the amendments? calendar by Mr. GLEASON the IIouse resumed considera- Amendments were agreed to. tion on final passage of Senate bill No. 572, printer's No. 875, entitled: On the question recurring, An Act amending the act of August 9, 1955, (P. L. 323, Will the House agree to the bill as amended on third No. 130), entitled "The County Code," providing for an- consideration? nual assessments for district attorneys' associations. Bill as amended was agreed to. The SPEAKER. This bill has been considered on three different days and agreed to and is now on final passage. The SPEAKER. This bill has been considered on three The question is, Shall the ,,ass different davs and agreed- to and is now on final nassase.- The question is, shall the bill pass finally? RECONSIDERATION OF VOTE ON SENATE BILL No. 572 Agreeable to the provision of the Constitution, the yeas and nays will now be taken. Mr. GLEASON moved that the vote by which SENATE LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE 3028 LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16, ing today for the same kind of consideration and courtesy Mr. GLEASON. November to December 1. that we showed them yesterday. I would ask support for Mr. DOYLE. I take the gentleman's word for that. this amendment. Are not all district attorneys in the state constitutional officers. as oonosed to the countv commissioners? CONSTITUTIONAL POINT OF ORDER Mr. GLEASON. I do not have the research in front of me, Mr. Speaker. I cannot definitively answer that ques-

The~~ ~~ SPEAKER.-- ~~ -- The Chair reconnizes the gentleman tinn - - ".-.A. from Lehigh, Mr. Ritter. Mr. DOYLE. It is my belief that they are. It is my Mr. RITTER. Mr. Speaker, I would like to raise a understanding that the district attorneys are. point of constitutionality. It seems to me that if we have ~f that were the case, do you know of any previous an election on November 4 of this year and elect a dis- decision in the court where a salary was raised between trid attorney, between that time and December 1, it the time of the election and the time of swearing in? would seem to me to be unconstitutional for the county Mr. GLEASON. My understanding of the cases-I do commissioners to make that office full-time and to set not have the matter researched totally at this point-is a salary of $1,000 less than the judge in the Court of that there is some question as to whether or not the salary common pleas would get. I think that the people have or the emolument to the puhlic official can he raised after a right to know prior to the day of election what kind his election and before his swearing in. The cases are of office they are voting for, whether in fact it is full- unanimous that he cannot receive an increase in his time and what the salary is. I, therefore, raise the Clues- salary during his term of office. I am suggesting here that tion, is this amendment constitutional? in this particular case we are not talking here about a The SPEAK^^, ~h~ Chair recognizes the gentleman term of office, because, in fact, the term of office has not begun and will not begin until the district attorneys are from Delaware, Mr. Ryan. sworn in in January of 1976. Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, on Mr. Ritter's point- The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman let the Chair pose Mr. Right. Well, then you are unaware of any case decided where the question to the House first? the salary was increased before he was sworn in but The gentleman, Mr. Ritter, has raised the question of the constitutionality of the amendment offered by the after the particular officer was elected? gentleman, Mr. Gleason. The Chair refers the matter of GLEASON. I am I did not constitutionality to the body at large for decision. Mr. DOYLE. There have been no caces that have turned up to cover that in-between time that you know The Chair recognizes the gentleman, Mr. Ryan. of? Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, I think what Mr. Ritter says Mr. GLEASON. There appears to be a conflict in the may he true if the bill were restricted to this election, cases; I am informed. The amendment that is before the House deals with the But I would add one other thing with respect to the whole problem. It does not specify that it has to he this second class and second class A counties because if tile election. I think the real question of constitutionality Senate does not return for action as to the second class would come up if the county commissioners in the third to and second class A county amendment of yesterday and the eighth class counties decided after December 1 and the anti-constitutionality position is sustained, every prior to the taking of office by the district attorneys in single county will have that very problem. If the Senate January that these district attorneys elected November 4 is not hack by November 17, everything is demoliched, so should or should not receive the full pay for a full-time to speak. prosecutor. I am saying that both the second class A and the This bill, presumably, if the amendment goes in, will second class counties and all the other counties ought to be the law of the state for many years to come. So the have at least some semblance of a chance for their county question of constitutionality is a moot question right now, commisssioners to make this option. because the bill refers to just the general problem; it does I would ask that the House, in view of the fact that not restrict it to this particular election. there is some question as to the constitutionalily, would There is nothing in the bill that says that it is these resolve that question, at least for the time being in favor district attorneys running this time. The question of of effective law enforcement in the counties. Give all the constitutionality, if indeed it is a question, does not arise second class through eighth class this option. until some county has exercised its prerogative under the I would ask for an affirmative~ vote~.~ .~~ ~ the cun- amendment and says that they want the district attorney stitutionality of this amendment. - running this November 4 to be full time. That is when the constitutional question will arise. Accordingly. I The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes- the gentleman would speak in favor of the constitutionality of the-bill. I from Delaware, Mr. Doyle. Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Speaker, I would just say this. I am The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman willing to go along and agree with Mr. Gleason even from Delaware, Mr. Doyle. though I know in our particular clase it could not he Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Speaker, would Mr. Gleason answer effective even if the date were changed, because of the a few questions? home rule charter which was just adopted. The SPEAKER. Is the gentleman going to interrogate Delaware County is a second class county and is locked on the question of constitutionality? in regardless, but I would urge support of Mr. Gleason's Mr. DOYLE. Yes, Mr. Speaker. amendment and the constitutionality of it The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. DOYLE. I do not have a copy of the amendment before me or in front of me, but is it identical except for The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman the one change? from Lehigh, Mr. Ritter. 1975. LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE 3029

Mr. RITTER. Mr. Speaker, the gentleman, Mr. Ryan, affirmative; those members voting to the contrary will he was partially correct wben he said that this bill deals voting in the negative. with other elections, but there is one sentence in there that says such determination shall be madc prior to De- On question, cember 1975, and it goes on about subsequent Will the House sustain the constitutionality of the elections. amendments? My point is that, if we have an election on November The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. RITTER 4, that the county commissioners cannot then by Decem- and GLEASON and were as follows: ber 1 declare the office of the district attorney to be full-time for that election that was held on November 4. YEAS-118 It seems to me th2i that determination has to be made Anderson, ,,=. Geirler McCall Sdriea prior to the election, not after the election. On that basis, neilorn~ Glearon hlcclatchy Seltzer I think at least that portion of tihe amendment is uncon- Goodman MeCue Shsne Berlln Grleeo Mebus Shelton stitutional. Rittle Gring Miller. M. E. Sirianni Brandt Hahemon Miller. M. E., Jr. Smith. E. POINT- - -~ OF ORDER ~runncr ~~nmiltnn..T -.A --~-~~-~-~~illirnn Sm~th. L. BU- Haskell Moehlmann spencer Tilo SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Hayes. D. S. b70~ris Stahl Hayes. 6. E. Mullen, M. P. Stapleton Crom Lchigh, Mr. Zeller. H~nford Nove Stout I.!I?lr. ZPLLER. I rise to a point of order on Mr. Doyle's Hill O;donnell Taddanio Hopklna Pancoast Thomss question of constitutionality. Hutchinson. 1 PAR.The gentleman will state it. Hutchineon. Itkin R,ir. %E.LLER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Katr Piits Wagner !n 1955 we had a case in court in Lehigh County, Kelly. J. 8. Polite W-BCZ Kernick Pratt Wargo when I was president of the Taxpayers Leaewe there, in Dininnl Kistler Prenderzast Whelan regard to an officer receiving an increase in salary dur- Dornbmnkl Klingaman Pyles Whittlwey in: term if contract. We lost tie case for the simple Don Knepper Reed Wllson Doyle Kowalyshyn Renninger Wilt. R. W. reason it was cited to us, of Anderson versus Philadelphi; nreibelbls Kusse RuEeiero Wilt. W. W -it was just befort! tho turn of the century, 1898 or LaMarca RYE worrilow Lehr Saloom Wright IUSR--wI?erein it wa:: ruled that no one could receive an Fisher Levi Salvatore Yohn in.-regs? in salary ciuring a term of contract. It happened Poster. A. Lincoln Scheaffer Zearfoss to be that that was a czse that was cited along with ours Foster. W. Lynch Schwcder ZOl'd Gallen and ihi. onlv one that I remember that was cited in court Manmiller So il is impossible for them to receive an increase in salary during ihe term of contract. Ahrahun Schmitt The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman a*urs Shelhnmer Barber Shuman from Cambria, Mr. Gleason. Bennett Shupnik Mr. GLEASON. Mr. Speaker, I have just one other Berson Taylor point: I suppose when you get a bunch of lawyers work- Tayoull :$dly:u Hasay Novak Toll ing on a prohlrm, they are going to find some answer to caputo Imis O'Donnell Trrll0 tie r:uestions. I hope the answer will find some accept- DiDonato Johnson, J. O'Keefe vm Xckensberger Kelly, A. P. Oliver Weidner ance in some quarters. Englehrvt Kolter Perry Westerberg This amenclment, Mr. Speaker, really does not address Fee Laudndio Pievsky Wojdak itself specificnlly to raising the salary of an elected official I.auglllin Rnppaport Yahner :::* :::* Lederer Rmwich Zeller so much as it is directeri to changing the nature of his ~al~agher Letterman Richardson ZwtM office from part-time to full-time. In other words, the "amla Mvnderino Rleger Fineman. George McGinni~ Rittei Speaker standards for pay scales for districl attorneys in Penn- Giarnmsrco McIntvre ROSS sylvania now h;ve no? bren changed. It is true we have a b'll on our calendar which purports I NOT VOTING-14 to rnise the salaries of the district attorneys from the Geesey O'Brien Sullivan present level to a higher level on a part-time basis. But nutern McGraw Rhodcs Valicenti tlis ameildment directed to this piece of legislation makes Cohm Milanovleh Romanelli Walsh. T. P. no reference at all to increasing salaries so much as it Davles Mullen szys that the county rommissioners shall have an option The majority required by the constitution having voted to changc the nature of the job from part-time to full- in the affirmative, the question was determined in the time; and that if they make that option, the full-time dis- affirmative and the constitutionality of the amendments trict attorney, as ccntrasted wiih the part-time district was sustained. attorney, will re-eive $1,000 less than the court of com- mon pleas. So I think in that respect alone, there is On the question recurring, enou~hforce and strength to uphold the constitutionality, Will the House agree to the amendments? because we are not, in a large sense, increzsing anybody's PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY salary but changing the amount of time he or she must devote to his job. Thank you. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman The SPEAKER. Thc question is on the matter of the from Lehigh, Mr. Ritter. constitutionality of the amendment offcred by the gentle- Mr. FLITTER. Mr. Speaker, I rise to a parliamentary in- inm, Mr. Gleason. Those members voting to uphold the quiry. constitutinn:litg of the amendment will he voting in the The SPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

- ~ Mr. RITTER. Mr. Speaker, is this amendment divisible? TAX BILLS ON THIRD CONSIDERATION By that, if you will refer to the amendment, Mr. Speaker, I am talking about page 2 of the amendment where it Agreeahle to Order, says in subparagraph (g), the second sentence which The House proceeded to third consideration of House begins, "Such determination shall be made prior to De- bill No. 12, printer's No. 768, entitled: cember 1, 1975." I am asking ii that can be divisible An Act amending the "Tax Reform Code of 1971," ap- from the rest of the amendment. It seems t~ me that if proved March 4, 1971 (P. L. 6, No. 2), further providing you take that sentence out, it would apply after January ~~",'p,","$,"dt~aph:~~Or services made by Or 1, 1976, and all the rest of the amendment would then apply. On the question, ~h~ s~~A~~~,The chair does not believe that that Will the House agree to the hill on third consideration? is a divisible amendment because of the way the amend- Mr. SHUbIAN requested and obtained unanimous con- merit is physically set up. what the gentleman is trying sent to offer the following amendments, which were to do is to amend the amendment, and not pose a divi- read: sion of a question to the House. If the gentleman wanted ~~~~d ~itl~,page 1, line 11, by removing the to offer an amendment to this amendment, the Chair after "machines" and inserting: and for exclusion of cer- would be happy to entertain it, but not to seek a division tain ice cream sales from the tax. as he does. Amend Bill, page 2, by inserting between lines 6 and 7: Section 2. Subclause (iii) of clause (29) ol section 204 Mr. RITTER. Mr. Speaker, not to belabor the point, of the act is amended to read: but as I read the amendment last evening and again this Section 204. Exclusions from Tax.-The tax imposed morning, if that one sentence was not lhere and whether by*S~y not be imposed it is there or it is not there, it seems to me, the rest of the (2g) The sale at retail or use of food and beverages amendment all applies to what happens once that full- for human consumption including candy, gum and similar time determination is made. If you take out that sen- confections, except that this exclusion shall not apply tence, "Such determination shall be made prior to De- with respect to- cember 1, 1975.", it would then read, "After January 1, * * * (iii) Food and beverages (except when purchased at 1976, the commissioners shall, after consultation . . . or from a school or in the ordinary course of et cetera, ". . . make determination prior to the first day activities of such organization) when the purchase price for circulating petitions . . ." et cetera. It would seem of the total transaction is more than ten cents (lo#], when to me that that is a divisible amendment. hat one sen. purchased (i) from persons engaged in the busmess of catering, or (ii) from persons engaged in the business of tence in there could be taken out and not aRfft the rest operating restaurants, cafes, lunch counters, private and of the amendment. social clubs, taverns, dining cars, hotels and other eating ~h~ SPEAKER, ~h~ chair would rule that the amend- places. For the purposes of this suhclause (iii), ice cream purchased for consumption off the premises irrespective ment is not divisible. The Chair would be very happy of from or where purch,ased, shall be excluded to have this matter held up, however, until the gentle- from the tax. For the purpose of this subclause (iii), man can get an amendment prepared to the amendment. beverages shall not include malt and brewed heverages and spirituoi~sand vinous liouors, hut shall include soft Mr. RITTER. I will do that, Mr. Speaker. Thank You. drinks. and the price of such soft drinks shall he con- The SPEAKER. Does the gentleman, Mr. Gleason, sidered togethe: with the price of other beverages and have any objections to that? food in determln~ngwhether the purchase prlce of the total transaction is more than ten cents (lo$). 1Mr. GLEASON. I have no objection, obviously, to a * * * colleague wanting to amend a bill, but I am concerned Amend Sec. 2, page 2, line 7, by striking out "2." and about whether or not we could vote finally on his amend- inserting: 3. ment and this amendment before we give up today. ~t Amend Scc. 3, Page 2, line 14, by striking out "3." seems to be very important that we have this enacted by and inserting: 4. the time the Senate returns on November 17, 1975. On the question, Will the IIouse agree to the amendments? SENATE BILL No. 572 PASSED OVER TEMPORARILY The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman The SPEAKER. From all indications, it would appear from Franklin, Mr. Shuman. that we are going to be here for some period of time M,, SHUMAN. would you pass over House bill No. 12 today. At least the Democratic Party will be caucusing. temporarily untii we get a fiscal note? The gentleman, Mr. Ritter, has suggested to him that he SPEAKER, Do you bol,e to get that fiscal note immediately order the amendment, and I am hopeful that we can get down here today. In the meantime, this bill, Senate bill No. 572, will be temporarily passed over. Mr. SHUMAN. Yes. I have talked to the Revenue De- partment and they contend that it is amenable. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Caputo. For what purpose does the The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman gentleman rise? from Fayette, Mr. Lincoln. For what purpose does the gentleman rise? Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman, Mr. Gleason, agree to a brief interrogation? Mr. LINCOLN. Mr. Speaker, I believe that House bill No. 12 has been on the calendar for the lest two weeks. The SPEAKER' Is On the amendment Offered by I think that the gentleman, Mr. Shuman, has had ample the gentleman? time to obtain a fiscal note and I would suggest, with Mr. CAPUTO. Yes. this being the last day of session for 4 weeks, that he The SPEAKER. This bill has now been temporarily would withdraw his amendment and either offer it as a passed over. bill or amend it into another bill. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE

AMENDMENT WITHDRAWN la11 parties. I cannot see how anyone could object to the 6-percent requirement being met by everyone. Mr. SHUIMAN. All right, I will withdraw it, but we are MENHORN, Again I will say I it is fair on going to put in another one. the basis that if I go down and buy a hot dog and pay The SPEAKER. The gentleman withdraws the amend- 35 cents for it, I have to pay a 3-cent tax. Multiply that ment. one out. That is 9 cents on a dollar. On the question recurring, Mr. LINCOLN. You are buying our hot dogs from a will the H~~~~agree to the bill on third pretty sharp operator if you are paying that much. Bill was agreed to. Mr. MENHORN. A lot of places even charge 50 cents. Maybe you do not go to ball games. The SPEAKER. This bill has been considered on three Mr. LINCOLN. Mr. Speaker, I would like to malre a different days and agreed to and is now on final passage. few comments at this time. The cluestion is, Shall the bill pass finally? The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. Mr. IRVIS. Mr. Speaker, would the gentleman yield? The SPEAKER. The Chaw recognizes the gentleman The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman, Mr. Lincoln, yield from Allegheny, Mr. Menhorn. to the majority leader? Mr. MENHORN. We are votlng now on final passage? Mr. LINCOLN. I will, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER. We are on final uassage- of House bill No. 12, printer's No. 768. HOUSE BILL No. 12 PASSED OVER TEMPORARlLY Mr. MENHORN. I would like to speak against the passage of this bill. Mr. IRVIS. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Shuman is going to renew The SPEAKER. The eentleman is in order and mav his amendment. The chairman of the Appropriations proceed. Committee has informed me that he can give lum the fis- Mr. MENHORN. I would iust like to remind the House cal note in the late morning. before they vote that this is a bill which is attempting If the gentlemen wish to continue the debate on the to change the sales tax structure, which was originally bill, I have no objerlion, but I though1 it only fair to passed and intended to be a unit sales tax. This would announce to them that the amendment is going to bc re- change, for the vending machine operators, their system newcd with a fiscal note. So a final vote will not be taken of paying taxes on gross receipts. I think we are setting under any circumstances until we have an opportunity to a very dangerous precedent in doing this. hear the gentleman, Mr. Shuman, on hs amendment. There is also a $400,000 loss of revenue, and I would The SPEAKER. The Chair will temporarily pass over remind those who votcd either for or against the ap- House bill No. 12. propriation for the Louie Kahn archives that this $400,000 vrould pay for it. Agreeable to order, The House proceeded to third consideration of IEouse The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman bill No. 605, printer's No. 2196, entitled: from Fayette, Mr. Lincoln. Mr. LINCOLN. Mr. Speaker, would the gentleman, Mr. Menhorn, submit to brief interrogation, please? The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Menhorn, consent to interrogation? pGviding Gr relaiive to the Mr. MENHORN. Yes, Mr. Speaker. tentative taxes by corporations. The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. On the que~tion, Mr. LINCOLN. Mr. Speaker, your concern over chang- W11l the House aeree to

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ beginning during the calendar year 1978 on Or before the amend here today is an effort to get at one of those small thirtieth day of April for calendar year taxpayers, and on things. It means little to the Commonwealth, hut it or before the end of the fourth month after the close of its previous fiscal year for fiscal year taxpayers, shall means a lot to business firms of the numbers of things pay on account of the tax due for the current year not which businessmen have to live with today. My amend- less than seventy-five per cent of the amount of said ment is an effort to go a bit further in that particular tax; the said amount to be computed by applying the respect, current tax rate to seventy-five per cent of such tax base from the last filed final report as may be applicable with As the members know, businesses today+orporations, respect to the tax being reported and commencing with that is-in terms of most of the taxes which they pay, pay the calendar year 1979 and fiscal years beeinning during the rnlendar year 1979, on or before the thirtieth day of approximately percent of any given taxes to the April for calendar year taxpayers, and on or before the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania prior to ~pril30 of that end of the fourth month after the close of its previous year. In other words, they are paying in advance about 90 fiscal year for fiscal year taxpayers, shall Pay on account of the tax due for the current year not less than seventy percent of the taxes that they owe for the year. ner cent of the amount of said tax; the said amount to Now you and I can imagine what kind of furor would he comnuted by applying the current tax rate to seventy be raised if we said to the individual taxpayer that you re? rent of such tax base from the last filed final report as maT? bc applic-ble with respect to the tax bcinq re- pay 90 percent of your 1976 taxes before April 30, ported and rommPncine with the calendar year 1980 and 1976. We would not be able to live with that in terms of fiscal years beginning during the calendar year 1980 and the average taxpayer and voter, but yet we have said each taxable year thereafter, on or before the thirtieth that to the businesses of Pennsylvania. day of April for calendar year taxpayers, and on or before the enrl of the fnl~rthmonth after the of its pre. They have said that one way we can help to preserve vlolls fiscal year for fiscal vear taxpayers, shall pay on business in Pennsylvania and help to get more business account of the tax due for the current year not 1-s than sixty Per Cent of the nmolint of said tax: the said amount in Pennsylvania is to relieve some of those little things to he comnuted by apnlyinq the rurrent tax rate to si,:ty which harass business. This is one of them. And believe Der cent of such ~PXbas" from the last filed final re~ortme, we all know in this chamber that we face severe

as- ~~Lmnv~ he al,~licah!e with respect to the tax being re- unem~lovmentnow and we face even more severe un- purxa:.- . . . Amend Sec. 1 (Set. 1). wee 2. line 1.5. hv inserting employment, particularly through this winter period as hraclrets before and after "PROVIDED, HOWEVFR,~and our supplies of natural gas dwindle and we fail to face insertine immerliatplv thereafter: And. prnvidpd fllr+her. curtailments in that respect and as the national economy ,Amend Sec. 1 (Sec. 1). naue 7. line 20. by infertin? tends to flatten out in its recovery. Therefore, it seems hr2r'if.tq before and after "NMTY" and inserting im- medi~telvthereafter: s~lch to me that we ought to be making an effortright now Am~ndSec. . ec. 1). nag? 7. line 24. by remnving to do something to help encourage business to stay in the comma aftkr('ANNUALTZED3' pnd inserting: p.: is Pennsylvania, to keep operating, and to encourage more nr@vidpd herein as the percentage of tax to he naid 7s ten~tir~etax. businesses to come to pennsylvania. Amend Spy 1 (Sw.I), 2. line 75. hv in-CI.tinn amendment 605 reduce hr~rketshefore 2nd aftpr "NINETY" and inserting im. over a period of 5 years that advance payment of m?di?tel.i thereafter: such corporate income tax from 90-percent advance payment Amend Src. 1 (See. 1). naee 2, line 30, by remnv'n? Now that still is the neriocl nft~r"STATUTF" and inserting: : And. nvn- down to 60-percent advance payment. v?+d fll~th~r.That in mlenrlar year 1R79 and firrll vnnrq not as far as perhaps we shculd go if we wantcd to he en- hf.~innlncdilrins? the calendar vex 1978 and each t~xahletirely fair. But it seems to me that it is a beginning step. voar thereafter ten Der rent of the remainin< nortion of have got to take that step at some point. I think we 'he tlx due shall he naid linon tbe date tho taxnnvpr'? we third nuarter renor+ for the purpose n; ~~d~~~lincnmr had better do it now when it means something to business. t.v ic rmuired to be made. Now there was a fiscal note passed around at about the 01 the question, same time this amendment was put on your desks yester- Will the House agree to the amendments? day, and I would like to direct your attention to that for just one moment. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman You will note in the fiscal note some figures which from York. Mr. Dorr. 1 indicate a cost factor on this bill. I would like to draw Mr. DORR. Mr. Sneakpr. several weeks the H~~~~~y011r attention particularly, however, not to the figures Committee on Federal-State Relations held some hearings YOU see but to the paragraph directly above the figures in Harrisburg roncerning the unemployment problem as appearing in the second list of figures there under the it faces Pennsylvania today. ~~~&~tat that meeting paragraph headed "Fiscal Impact." If I may. I would were renresentative~of a broad spectrum the f-onomir just like to read that. Some of you may not be able to community, one might say, of pennsylvania, including find that among the papers on your desk. labor. Chamhers of commerce, induTtry, and so forth, In regard to fiscal impact, the Appropriations Com- One of the points that was made at that meeting. in mittee says: resnonse tn questions as to how the state legislature can Although this amendment would not lower the hel~to alleviate the unemnlovment nroblem in pen,,- amount of taxes paid, it would delay partial pay- svlvania, was to the effect that we need to give some con- ment from one fiscal year to the next; thereby causing revenue losses in certain fiscal years. -+Inratinn to the husinesser ~hichare contemnlstine ,~ ~- sihlv coming into Pennsylvania and also make an effort Now here is the key point: to preserve those businesses which are here and con- These revenue losses would not be recovered un- sidcring leaving the state. ti1 the taxes are reduced at some later date. . . or There are a number of areas in which, over the years, dropped- P-nn~al~~aningovernment has in a smrll x~a>~hegun tn harass business in an effort to solve one government pro- which would mean full recovery. hlem or another. The hill that we are attempting to The point is that we are not changing the tax. here- LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE fore, over the long haul we are not reducing the amount 1 gap, and as the tax goes on ad infinitum, we will never of revenue to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. It is make that up or catch up on that revenue loss. only a matter of timing. Mr. DORR. Why will we not? You will recall that when this 90-percent payment was Mr. WOJD.4K. Because you are creating a gap in 1 enacted, it was an effort to bring revenues in in a certain year and putting off the collection of it 1 year later ad fiscal year. I want to again emphasize the fact that this infinitum, and it does create a tax relief or revenue loss bill has no ultimate fiscal impact. It has impact only in a in that period. certain fiscal year, namely, effectively, the first fiscal lblr DORR. Let me ask the questir;n this way: In the year. And even though, for example, in the fifth iisca! current fiscal year, under the current law, let us say that year we are talking about a 30-percent reduction from the total taxes collected by the Department of Revenue today, the fiscal impact for that fiscal year is still only 5 under this particular provision of the tax law are $100. percent. And, in fact, that amount would he reraverecl Under current law, the Department of Revenue collects ultimately in the following year. You recover the amo~jnt $10 from the previous year's taxes and $90 from the cur- you lose in the following year. rent year's taxes. Now under my amendment, admit- Now, admittedly, in this particular fiscal year we might tedly, in this particular year the Revenue De2artmcnl have a problem. But I think we need to begin to take the would collect again 10 percent from the previous year step, and that is why I start at only a .!-percent reduction hut only 85 percent from the current year. Is that cor- instead of going from 90 percent to 60 percent all at rect? once. We simply could not stand that. I think we can Mr. WOJDAK. That is correct. stand a 5-percent reduction and I would urge the mem- Mr. DORR. But in the following year, would the Rev- bers to support this in an effort to increase our ahility enue Department not collect 15 percent instead of the to attract business to Pennsylvania. The jobs are im- 10 percent? ~ortantto us. Mr. WOJDAK. That is true, but yo11 have created s gap in the collection which represents a loss in that par- The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman ticular fiscal year, a loss that you have put off collecting from Philadelphia, Mr. Wojdok. for a future year and a future year ad infinitum. You Mr. WOJDAK. Mr. Speaker, I rise to oppose Mr. Dorr's have created a gap in there in our collection i?rocrqq amendments. Some of the statements he made are mis- which represents a loss, leading, although I do not think he consciously attempted M,, DORR. ~utin the last fiscal year that we talk to. about speclflcally in the bill, do we not pick that up? What this amendment does is to create a revenue gap/ultimatclv.'ihe taxnavers oavs the same amount rcirard- ., . " A. in the collection of the corporate net income tax, a gap less of when he pays it? that we will really never catch up on, despite what Mr. M,.. TVO,TD."., Yes, except we are delaying the col- Dorr said. And if you will notice on the fiscal note, you lection for a year and that revenue loss in that year will will see the loss per year. That gap would be created. never he macie up. We are always pushing it off a year The Commonwealth would never catch up on the col- into the future. lection of those taxes, and it does, in effect and in con- Mr. DORR Well, that may he true- clusion, provide tax relief and a permanent loss of rev- n.Er, U'OJDATC. That is true. enues to the Commonwealth. Mr. DORR. That is true if we go ad infiniturn. Now if You will refer to the fiscal note, the estimated Mr. WOJDAI<. Well, I hope we do go on ad infinitum. loss of revenues for the particular years in accordance Mr. DORR. I recognize that point. I think you are with the percentage schedule that Mr. Dorr has outline? right about that, hut i think also that it only amounts to in his amendment, you will see the kind of revenue gap that original 5 percent, does it not? that we will experience in each of those years ranginn Mr. WOJDAK. No, it does not. In your c~snendment,in from the 1975-76 fiscal year to the 1980.81 fiscal year, and 1980 and thereafter, you have reduced it to 60 percent. they are significant. They are significant in a time when It will represent a 40-percent loss at that point. the Commonwealth really does not have the type of rev- Mr. DORR. No, it will not because in that year they enues or cannot afford the luxury of this kind of loss to its will also be collecting 30 percent from the previous year. general fund. I would suggest very strongly a negative The following year, then, they will be collecting 40 per- vote on Mr. Dorr's amendment. cent from the ore\.ious gear and 60 percent from the cur- rent year. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from York, Mr. Dorr. WOJDAK, Well, you ran those figures by me vrry quickly. Mr. DORR. Mr. Speaker, may I interrogate the chair- M,, DORR. ~~t me put it this way: Under current !sw man of the Appropriations Committee? you collect 10-90. Every year you collect 10-90, 10-90, The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Philadel- 10.90, phia, Mr. Wojdak, consent to interrogation? Mr. WOJDAK. May I interrupt? Mr. WOJDAK. Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. DORR. Surely. The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. Mr. WOJDM. If I must collect from you $100 at this Mr. DORR. Mr. Speaker, I Was not atknpting to date-and that becomes important because we operate mislead anybody, and it puzzles me why you say there during the confines of a fiscal year-and I plan on the is an ultimate revenue loss. Can you explain that in r use of that $100, but if you then shift the collection of little more detail? that money to a future year, it represents a pinch or loss Mr. WOJDAK. Yes, Mr. Speaker. I am talking about to me in this particular year. a revenue loss because of the gap that you create by the Now, admittedly, in the next fiscal year that money amendment, and this Commonwealth will never catch will he paid, but that same situation will exist next up in its collections because of that You create a 1-year year as you drop to the lower percentages ad inflnitum. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

-- So tllere is a gap in revenue loss during a particular time General Assembly in Pennsylvania, in order to raise funds which will never be made up because the real effect of to balance a budget, suddenly said, we will tell people this is to provide tax relief for a one-shot or 5-year-shot to pay their tax in advance. We told the businesses in proposition which will never be made up. Pennsylvania, you guess what your tax will he. Instead Mr. DORR. Well, I respectfully disagree, and let me of paying a periodic payment at the beginning of the interrupt for a moment. year on what you are making and what your business is What you have failed to contemplate is that in the next doing, we are going to tell you to guess to almost 100 fiscal year, instead of collecting 10 percent from the pre- percent what you are going to make next year, and then vious year, you will be collecting 15 percent. So you you send that tax in ahead of time. Did not this General have, in your fiscal note, failed to take that into consid- Assembly do that about 5 or 6 years ago and it went to eration. Yes, you have. Through this period, in each 90 percent? The question is: Did not this General As- fiscal year you will be collecting only 5 percent. You will sembly, in order to pick up some extra millions of dollars be negative only 5 percent. At the end of this period of in a short period of time, say to the businesses in this enumerated years in the amendment, you will, from then Commonwealth, you baess what you are going to make on, be collecting 100 percent-40-60. next year and send us 90 percent of tinat income tax now? Mr. WOJDAK. You are always going to collect the tax. Mr. WODJAK. I would assume that when the law was The real issue is the timing of the collection or when you passed it did represent a one-time pickup. I do not know are collecting it. that it was 6 years ago. I assume it was. Mr. DORR. That is exactly right. There is no ultimate Mr. HEPFORD. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. fiscal loss, is there? ~r.WOJDAK. sothat there is no doubt in your mind, The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman nor should there be anv doubt in anvone's mind. that sou from Mr. He~ford. ere creating a gap in terms of collection. You are just Mr. HEPFORD. Mr. Speaker, you know, when you are holding off that collection and spacing it percentagewise faced with the problem of balancing a budget, that we over a 5-year period. But that loss for that starting have budget secretaries who juggle a budget, when we year or during those 5-year periods will never be made are talking about billions of dollars as you are talking up. It is a loss in that fiscal year. There is no other way about within the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. What to look at it. they did, in order to balance a budget and pick up a', Mr. DORR. Except that you pick it up in the next extra $30 or $40 million, was suddenly slip an amend- fiscal year from what you would have collected had you ment in and say to business, you have got to pay in ad- been operating under the old system. You have a 5-per- vance in your best guess, 90 percent of your taxes. It cent increase. would bc the same as if you were short in this coming Mr. WOJDAI<. Is there any doubt in your mind that budget and did not have a $94-million surplus that the during this 1975-76 fiscal year, your proposal would rep- Auditor General said he just found and said, you have resent a loss in collectio'n of revenues of $32 million, as- got to pick up $60 million. And what do you do? You suming $32 million represents- say, we will make it $100 million. All right, businessmen Mr. DORR. Five percent. in Pennsylvania, send us 100 percent today of what your Rlr. WOJDAK. Okay. Is there any doubt in your mind tax is going to be for next year. -bout that? We made a mistake. It is time the General Assembly Mr. DORR. I agree with that. and the elected Representatives of the people of Penn- Mr. WOJDAK. That is the loss for the fiscal year 1975- sylvania recognize they made a mistake and seek to cor- 76, is it not? rect it to get jobs back in Pennsylvania and to say lo busi- Mr. DORR. No question about that. ness, we do not want you to make a guess. We are going Mr. WOJDAK. Fine. to try to get back to some sane, sensible accounting sys- Mr. DORR. Which is made up in the following fiscal tem, which we had in the Commonwealth when business year. and jobs came into the Commonwealth from 1963 until The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman the time that we started to lean on them so hard that it from Dauphin, Mr. Hepford. even made guesswork of what their tax would be. Mr. HEPFORD. Mr. Speaker, would the gentleman, Mr. Mr. Dorr is not saying that we should go back to what Wojdali, consent to interrogation? we threw on them at one time because we admit they The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman, Mr. Wojdalc, con- cannot stand it. We should have attempted to correct sent to interrogation? some of this last year when we overtaxed $300 million. Mr. WOJDAK. I shall. We did not do it, and business did not look to Pennsyl- The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. vania. You want jobs; your people want employment; Mr. HEPFORD. Mr. Speaker, the thrust of this amend- America wants work. Yon have got to start now to cor- ment is to change the law to what it was approximately 6 rect the errors you made when we took the easy way out yerrs ago, is it not? and said, business, send in 90 percent as a guess of your Mr. WOJDAK. Mr. Speaker, I apologize to you. I did taxes. I do not say, go back to what we threw on them not hear that question. at one time, but I say, for the good of the working people Mr. HEPFORD. Mr. Speaker, is it not the thrust of this in this Commonwealth and in order to get jobs generated amendment to return the law to the state it had been ir and in order to show some direction of fairness, let us approximately 6 years ago? correct the error we made and let us start reducing at Mr. WOJDAK. Mr. Speaker, I do not know the an- 5 percent as this amendment does. When one-third of swer to that question. I am assuming that the law 5 or the year is down, you will still be getting 60 percent of 6 years ago, from your question, was as stated by Mr, the tax they are going to pay in a year and you are get- Dorr's amendment. ting it in advance. Mr. HEPFORD. Mr. Speaker, do you agree that the Do not stand forever and say. I was right, when I was LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE wrong, when we were wrong. Let us be big enough to figure to work with rather than ask them to estimate it admit our mistake and let us start in that direction. You as, Mr. Hepford says, they are doing now. have got a $94-million surplus reported by the Auditor This bill already does that. It says: "The last filed General now. Let us at least show the people that we final report." So it gives them a definite figure on which want to bring jobs to Pennsylvania; that we are going to to base their 90-percent prepayment. To that degree we start getting back on a sound system and a sound basis. have accommodated the business community. They did This is not a revenue loss. You know what it is at most. ask to have the prepayment reduced, certainly, although the very most? rphis ~~~~~~~~~lthin its taxation they themselves admitted that there would be a revenue to say to the people who create jobs, give us that money 10% to the Commonwealth at that particular time and, in advance and let us put it on interest. we will keep it frankly, they said that they did not know how we could here in the Commonwealth and spend it in the hopes that make that up. So that is my recollection of what hap- you earn enough money to pay that tax. That is what we pened at lhe did. There is no loss in this bill, even after we accept But I think that House bill No. 605, without any fur- this amendment and put it in. ther amendments, does what the business community Let us recognize that what we did was wrong, let asked us to do in terms of giving them definite figures on us attempt to correct it and at least go down step by step which to base their estimate of their succeeding taxes. 5 percent a year; not "hange the tax at all but say, you We have done that. I think the question revolves around do not need to guess what vou are going to make next the fact of how are You going to make up the revenue - loss in th~syear or any other fiscal year, and that is the year and pay 100 percent of that. We said 90 percent, I '. ' , and that was totallv wrong. questlon that this House will have to determine. Vote for this amendment. It does not effect a revenue Personally, as much as I appreciate the work done by loss at all. With the $94-million surplus in your state- my colleague, Mr. Dorr, I am going to vote against the merit here, it could go for 3 years. seewhat it gen.. amendment because I think the bill does basically what erates. the business community has asked us to do in terms of But ici us say to the in this commonwealth, we definite information for them. So I am going to oppose are going to do something to get jobs back in Pennsyl- the amendment. vania and to entice business to come hack here and create ~h,SPEAKER. ~h~ Chair recognizes the gentleman work, and the people want to work. Vote for this amend- from york, M~,~~~t~~, ment. Let us get turned around in the right direction. M~,A, C, F~~~~~,M~,Speaker, would the gentleman, The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Mr. Wojdnk, consent to a brief interrogation? from Philadelphia, Mr. Mullen. The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman, Mr. Wojdak, con- Mr. M. P. MULLEN. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to sent to interrogation? add a few comments to what Mr. Hepford said. First of Mr. WOJDAK. Yes, Mr. Spealter. all, those of us who have been around here for a long The SPEAKER. The gentleman proceed. while realize that when we originally adopted this par. Mr. A. C. FOSTER. Mr. Speaker, like many of us, I am ticular plan, we did it over a period of years and we did puzzled by Your statement that this will represent a it with the business with the purpose in mind revenue loss ad infinitum. Why will it represent a reve- to avoid increased taxes. I think we originally started it nue loss after the 5-year period? during the Leader administration, and we continually in. , Mr. WOJDAK. 1 said it would represent a revenue loss creased the prepayment of taxes whenever we got into 1n this particular fiscal year which will never be made up ad infiniturn. a bind and we needed additional money in order to bal- anee the budget. I recall the many conferences we had Mr. A. C. Why do you say it never be made up? which business participated in, and they agreed to it in order to avoid taxes. The SPEAKER. I think the gentleman has already N~~ the problem is that we face a tremendous deficit covered that territory in response to interrogation by the next year. There is no question about it. gentleman, Mr. Dorr. Mr. Hepford was referring to the $94 million that the Mr. A. C. FOSTER. Very well, Mr. Speaker. I will get Auditor General said was available, which is probably at it in a different true, ~t may not be $94 million, hut it is pretty close to Mr. Speaker, initially this situation came about by vir- it. But the problem that we face next year is that al~of tue of the fact that the state accelerated tax payments us are going to try and avoid tax increases. I certainly through prepayment or advanced payment or however am not going to vote for any tax increases and I do not You care to phrase it. At that time did this create any think that many of you want to vote for tax increases revenue? Was any revenue created other than for the next year. With this amendment, certainly we will have One year? to face a sure tax increase next year because it is going Mr. WOJDAK. Surely there was a 1-year creation of to decrease revenues next year. I think it is bad to adopt revenues. this amendment and I am going to vote against it. Mr. A. C. FOSTER. One year. But we are speaking ad infinitum. It did not create any over the long haul, The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman did it? from Lehigh, Mr. Ritter. Mr. WOJDAK. In the first year of the enactment, it Mr. RITTER. Mr. Speaker, the gentleman, Mr. llorr, would create an overpayment or additional revenues was correct in his interpretation of what took place at which would then level off. Well, it would level off, but that meeting. But as I recall the meeting, one of the it would be at that new rate. things that the business community was concerned about Mr. A. C. FOSTER. Mr. Speaker, if you were tn go to was this prepayment of their income tax. They had ex- the bank today and borrow $5,000, would this increase pressed some hope that we would give them a definite your overall net worth? 3036 LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

Mr. WOJDAK. Yes, it would. Mr. Hepford puinted out, is the number of jobs that we Mr. A. C. FOSTER. It would? Over the long haul, Mr. I must have available to Pennsylvanians. Speaker? WOJDAK, Let us back up to your original ques- The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Lehigh, Mr. Ritter. tion? If I borrowed $5,000, no, it would not increase my Mr. RITTER. Mr. Speaker, there is a big difference net worth. I could surely use that $5,000 in this fiscal between what was done 6 years ago and what this amend- year. Mr. A. C. FOSTER. I could too, Mr. Spealrer. ment proposes to do. When we accelerated the payment some 6 years ago, that was a one-shot deal. We only Mr. Speaker, that concludes the interrogation. May I increased or accelerated the payment for that 1 year; we make a brief statement? did not increase it 5 percent for 5 years. The SPEAKER. The gentleman is in order and may What Mr. Dorr is attempting to do is to decrease that proceed. accelerated payment at a rate of 5 percent for a 5-year Mr. A. C. FOSTER. Mr. Speaker, I feel that the gen- period. While we got accelerated money and additional tleman, Mr. Wojdak, has put this in perfect perspective revenue for that year from the accelerated prepayment, by saying that his net worth would not be increased over that then leveled off, as Mr. Wojdak said, because then the 10% haul by borrowing $5,000. 1 submit that the each year thereafter the rate was the same, Dorr,s state's net worth was not increased over the long haul amendment does the opposite. It would reduce it not either by prepayment of taxes. Therefore, if there was just 1 year but 5 percent for 5 years. So there is a very never any long-term increase in wealth, there cannot, of big difference. course, be any long-term loss of revenue. Therefore, I I think you have to put it in this light: The accelerated would strongly support Mr. Dorr's amendment and would payment took place time; there was no increase in ask my colleagues to do likewise. the amount of taxation; the businesses paid the same The SPEAKER. The difference between the two sit- amount of money that they paid the year before; they uations, Mr. Foster, just as a matter of interesting discus- paid it earlier, But Dorr,s amendment will sion, is that when you borrow $5,000, the reason that you allow them to pay less for a 5-year period, percent less are not enhancing your net worth is because you are put- year, and I think is in I think ting a corresponding liability on the books representing a that the danger it, we ought to defeat the amendment, the repayment of the loans due. But that is not true of the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth is putting addi- On the question recurring, tional cash on its books, but not at the same time putting Will the House agree to the amendments? any arklilional liability on its books. So there is an in- crease in net worth. The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. DORR and WOJDAK and were as follows: The Chair recognizes the gentleman from York, Mr. nnrr. YEAS-87 Mr. DORR. Mr. Speaker, I respectfully disagree with A~~~~~~~,J.H.Grlng MeGlnNs Srnlth. L. that. The liability is that they do not get it in the fol- Beren Halverson Mebus Spencer Blttle Hamlltan. J. H. Miller. M. E. Stahl lowing fiscal year; they got it in the earlier fiscal year, Hasay Miller. M. E.. Jr. Taddonlo so that is a liability. Burns Haskell Moehlmann Thomas- ~~ Hayes. D. S. Naye Turner The SPEAKER. That is not a liability that has to he EEg-.. .-.- Hayes. S. E. O'Connell ust~lloskl repaid. crawford Hepford Pancoast Vroon Parker. H. S. Cumherland Hill Wagner Mr. DORR. Well, let us not argue. Deverter Hopklns Perrl Weldne~ The SPEAKER. Is the gentleman, Mr. Foster. through? metz Hutchinson. W. Pitts Westerbere- Mr. A. C. FOSTER. I would just like to submit chat Katr Polite Whelan ;Fjd Klstler Pyles Whlttlesey maybe the difference then, Mr. Speaker, is that if I as an ~~~~e Kllngarnan Rennfnger Wilson individual borrow the $5,000, I will darn sure have to pay Fischer Knepw Ryan Wilt. R. W. Kusse Saloom Wilt.WO~IIOW W. W. it back, but in the case of the Commonwealth, they will F2Er,A. Lehr Sa1vato~e simply pass it on in the form of a tax increase in the F0ster.W. Led ScheaRer Wright future, and that is the liability. Gallen Lynch Sdrlm Yahn Geesev------Manmiller Seltzer Zearfoss MeCletchp Sirianni Zord The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman :$= McCue Smlth. E. from York, Mr. Dorr. Mr. DORR. Mr. S~eaker,. .just a cou~leof brief com- ments. I think it is clear that no corporation paying these Gards Lsughlln Rltter taxes will pay less taxes by reason of this amendment. Arthum Gelsler Mane Romsnelll George Menhorn Ross That is the key. The revenue will come in to the Com- Glammarco MllUron Rugglero rnonwealth over the long haul in the same amount as it Bennett Glllesple Miscedch Schmitt Gillette Morrls Schweder would have come in had the amendment not passed. :rmFn Gleeson Mrkode Shsne I would urge my colleagues to judge the amendment BLaawell Goodman Mullen. M. P. Shelllamer not on the basis of revenue coming into the Common- Green Mullen Shelton E;';g Greenfield Mwto Shuman wealth but on the basis of the attitude of the Common- B,,, Hammock Myers Shupdk wealth, as a government, toward business. It would seem Caputo Hutchinson. A. Novak Stepleton Iryls O'Brlen stout to me that we are only getting toward a fair treatment zz:,e" Itkin O'Donnell Taylor of business by passing this amendment in terms of the Cowell lahnrion. J. O'Keefe Tayoun Kelly, A. P. Oliver Toll timing of the collection of the ultimate tax, all of which g2G:zM~ Kernlck Perry Trello will ultimately have to be paid. It seems to me that we Diearlo Kolter Petrarca Vann KowalymYn Ptevsky Wansacz have got to show some good faith to business in order to ~~~$&,.l LaMarrn matt Wargo attract business, to keep business, and the key point, as I DOYI. Laudadlo Prendergsat wold* 1975. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE 3037

Dreibelbfa Lederer Rappaport YBhner Englehart Laudadlo Renningel. Wajdak Eckensberger Letterman Reed Zeller Fawcett Laughlln Renwink Worrilow Englehart Uneoln Renwlek Zwlkl Fee Lederer Rhodes Wright Fee Manderino Rhodes Fischer Lehr Richardson Yahner Flaherty MeCall Richardson Fineman, Flahert, Letterman Rieger Vohn Fryer Mclntyre Rieger Speaker Foster. A. Lev1 Rltter Zearf- Gallagher Foster. W. Lincoln Romanell1 Zelier Fryer Lynch Ross Zord NOT VOTING-8 Gallagher Manderlno Ruggiero Zurikl Gallen Manmiller Ryan Butera Kelly. J. B. Milanovlch Valleentl Cania McCall Saloom Fineman. Davies MCGI'BW Sullivan WaM, T. P. Geesey hlcclatehy Sdvatorr Speskrr So the question was determined in the negative and the Geisler McCue amendments were not agreed to. On the question recurring, Fisher Halvenron Taddonio Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration? NOT VOTING-? Mr. WOJDAK requested and obtained unanimous con- sent to offer the following amendment, which was read: Butera MeGraw suivan Walsh. T. P. Davles Milanovleh Valieenti Amend Sec. 1 (Sec. I), page 2, line 14, by striking out "FINAL" and inserting: annual tax The majority required by the Constitution having voted in the affirmative, the question was determined in the On the question, affirmative. Will the House agree to the amendment? Ordered, That the clerk present the same to the Senate The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman for concurrence. from Philadelphia, Mr. Wojdak. Mr. WOJDAK. Mr. Speaker, I have an amendment tc GENERAL ASSEMBLY-RELATED BILL this hill, a technical language correction. ON THIRD CONSIDERATION On the question recurring, Agreeable to order, Will the ilouse agree to the amendment? The House proceeded to third consideration of IIouse Amendment was agreed to. bill No. 1590, printer's No. 2192, entitled: On the question, An Act amending the "Legislative Code of Ethics," ap- Will the House agree to the hill as amended on third pfoved July 10, 1968 (P.L. 316, No. 154), further definlng gift and member and adding definitions; further providing consideration? for standards of conduct and prohibitions; providing for Bill as amended was agreed to. economic interest statements: and further ~roviding- for penalties. The SPEAKER. This hill has been considered on tbret different days and agreed to and is now on final passage., On the question, The question is, Shall the bill pass finally? Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration? Mr. YOHN requested and obtained unanimous consent Agreeable to the provision of the Constitution, the year to offer the following amendments, which were read: and nays will now be taken. Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 4.1), page 4, line 10, by inserting a YEAS-192 period after "member" Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 4.1), page 4, lines 10 through 17, by Abraham George McGimIs Scheaer striking out "unless he shall file with the Chief Clerk of Anderson. J. & Glammarco McIntyre Sehmltt the" in line 10, all of lines 11 through 17 Arthura Gillesple McLsne Sehweder Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 5.1), page 7, line 14, by striking out 3arber Gillette Mehus Seiriea "two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500)." and in- Bellomld Gleason Menhorn Seltzer Bennett Gleesan Miller. M. E. Sham serting: five hundred dollars ($500). Reren Goodman Miller. M. E.. Jr. Shelhamer Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 5.1), page 7, llnes 15 through 19, by Berson Green Milliron Shelton striking out "which" in line 15, all of lines 16 through 19, Bittle Greenfield Miscevieh Shuman and inserting: by location; provided a member's primary Bradley Grleeo Moehlm- Shupnlk residence shall not be included. Brandt Gting Morris Sltianni Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 5.1), page 7, lines 22 and 23, by Berlin Eamllton. J. H. Mrkonic Smlth. E. striking out all of line 22 and "personal property: And, I3lackd Hammock Mullen. M. P. Smith, L. provided further," in line 23 and inserting: Provided, Conetto Hasay Mullen Spencer Bmer Haskell Musto Stahl Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 5.1), page 8, line 13, by removing the Bum Hayea, D. S. Myers Staplcton comma after "(4)" and insert~nga period caputo Hayea, S. E. Novak Stout Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 5.1), page 8, lines 13 through 15, by Cessar Repford Naye Taylor striking out "nor to any corporation whose" m lme 13 Cimlnl Hill O'Brlen Tayoun and all of lines 14 and 15 C0hen Hopkins O'Connell Thomsd Cole Hutchlnoon. A. O'Donnell Toll On the question, W. Re110 Cowell Hutchinson, O'Keefe Will the House agree to the amendments? Crawford Ilylr- - Ollver Turner~ Cumherland Itkln Psncoast Ustpnoakl navb. D.M. JohMon, J. Parker, H S vann AMENDMENT DIVIDED DeMedfo Katz Perrl Vroon Kelly, A P. Pew Wagner The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman ICelly. J. B. Petrrrca Wansacz from Montgomery, Mr. Yohn. Kernick Plevsky Wargo Klstler Pltts Weldner Mr. YOHN. Mr. Speaker, the first amendment which I Kllngaman Polite Westerberg Knepper Pratt Whelan am offering is the one which is numbered "1." Prendergmt Whlttleaey I believe Mr. Rappaport has requested that the amend- Pyles u'llsan ment be divided. I believe it is divisible and I have no Rappaport Wllt. R. W. Reed Wllt. W. W objection to the same. 3038 LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE Octobei- 16,

The SPEAKER. Does the Chair understand that these restoring puhlic confidence in the legislature, I think we amendments are being divided? should retain it at $500, and I would solicit your support h'Sr YOHN. Yes, Mr. Speaker. for this amendment. The SPEAKER. The Chair understands that the gen- The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman tleman, Mr. Rappaport, and the gentleman, Mr. Yohn, from Philadelphia, Wr. Rappaport. have agreed upon the manner in which the amendments M,, RAPPAPORT. perhaps, Mr. Speaker, some of the are to he divided. If the members will refer to the other members would like to be recognized hefore me, amendments in front of them, the Chair understands that not, the first division would be following line 3, ending with Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words about the "all of lines 11 through 17." Is that correct, Mr. Yohn? general intent of the hill as it is unamended so that we Mr. Yes, that is 'Orrect, Mr. 'peaker. That have a picture of the entire bill before going to the nitty- portion of the amendment is agreed to. gritty-. of the details. On the question, What the House is faced with is a philosophical dif- Will the House agree to Part I of the yohn amend- ference between the gentleman from Montgomery, Mr. ments? Yohn, and myself on what we should be doing with this Part I of the Yohn amendments was agreed to. bill. Our position has been that the members of this The SPEAKER. The next division is the next three House should be required to make what is called relevant lines, ending with the words "five hundred dollars." and reasonable disclosure. No ethics bill is going to put that correct? somebody in jail who does not already commit criminal Mr. YOHN. That is correct. acts. Like locks, ethics bills are for honest people. The SPEAKER. Is that amendment agreed to? The bill as it stands was drafted to provide a reasonable and logical standard for the members of this House to Mr. YOHN. That amendment is not agreed to. guide themselves. No matter what we pass, the very The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman small, insignificant percentage among us who are thieves from Montgomery, Mr. Yohn, on that portion of the are going to remain thieves because that is the way they amendment. are. Mr. YOHN. Mr. Speaker, the basic purpose of this We must also keep in mind the tremendous differences entire amendment is to-and I will then restrict myself in backgrounds of the members of this House, and that is to the section we are discussing-restore the bill to the "11 to the good. Some of the members feel there are too form in which it passed this House of Representatives many lawyers here, hut there are also insurance people last year by a vote of approximately.. 180 to 4 or 180 to 5. here, accountants, farmers and businessmen. It is this variety in experience that the members bring to the The particular amendment that we are discussing now House that is so important in our deliberations, We do relates to the threshold as to when you will be required not always agree with one another, but it is this clash of to disclose a particular financial interest. The position opinions that brings what I think is a rather good which this House took last year was that we would hasi- brand of legislation, As part of wanting to keep this cally require the disclosure of all financial interests that a variety of membership, we must have reasonable stand- member Of the 'Iouse Or a Of the Or a ards that honest and honorable men can live up to. This candidate would have from which he received income in amendment is the first philosophical argument, excess of $500 during that particular year. This amend- ment would increase that amount to $2,500 a year. This bill requires disclosure of sources of income. There will be later amendments reauirine- the amounts The purpose of a disclosure statute is to assure the to be disclosed. ~h~ bill as it stanis does not require puhlic that the members of the House and the Senate do it requires disclosure of sources of income. It not have private financial interests that may be affecting does require particular information if the of in- their puhlic judgment. I think that if we increase the come in any way involves the Commonwealth or its agen- amount to $2,500, we are going much too far in allowing cies. This amendment speaks to the section which re- interests to remain undisclosed. It seems to me that this quires that al~sources of income be disclosed. articular amendment is probably the key amendment he present form of the bill sets as a limit that you that we will he talking about on this hill all day, because disclose the source of income when that source pro- it is essential that are have a full and adequate disclosure vides more than $2,500 per year to the member. ~h~ to the puhlic if we are to have any public confidence in amendment of Mr. Yohn would lower that threshold to what we are doing. $500 per year. It is our position that in today's inflation, I would particularly point out to all of the members $500 a year does not represent very much, unfortunately, that in no event do any of these amendments require the but that $2,500 is a much more reasonahle standard. Let disclosure of the of your income. ~h~ decision me emphasize, if the source of income is the Common- of the House last year, the approach taken in House bill wealth or any of its agencies, the threshold is $1. No. 1590, and the approach taken in all of these amend- This concerns a source of income that has nothing to ments is that we will disclose sources hut not amounts. do with the Commonwealth or any of its agencies. This The only issue is which sources are we disclosing, and I means that if you are an insurance hroker and you write a would submit that we should disclose all sources of in- little hit of life insurance or health and accident insurance, come in excess of $500 rather than $2,500. When the hill under the present bill, yon would have to report that was first considered last year, it was at $100. We had outside income if it is more than $2,500 a year. Under amendments on the floor that increased it to $300 and the amendment, you would have to report the source of then to $500. I think that is an appropriate level. If we income if it is more than $500 per year. are to make this disclosure statute an effective means of Thank you, Mr. Speaker. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE

- The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. YOHN and from Delaware, Mr. Zearfoss. RAPPAPORT and were as follows: Mr. ZEARFOSS. Mr. Speaker, I would like to inter- YEAS-93 rogate Mr. Yohn first. I would like to have Mr. Rappa- port listen to his answers because I would like to then see *braham Geescp Linc~ln Schweder Beren Gillesple Lmeh Shane if Mr. Rappaport agrees with the answers of Mr. Yohn, if aerson Gillette Manmiller Shurnan Mr. Yohn will consent. Bittle Gleason McCue Siriannl Greenfield Miller. M. E.. Jr. Smith, L. The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Montgomery, z[:Gt Grieco Milliron Spencer Mr. Yohn, consent to interrogation?. Cessar Gring Musto Stahl Mr. YOHN. I will. Ciminl Halverson Noye Stapleton Cowell Hasag O'Brien Taddonio The SPEAKER. This could get very complicated. The c,,uriod Haskell O'connell Turner gentleman may proceed. Cumberland Hayes. D. 5. Pancoast Ustmoski Hayes, S. E. Parker. A. S. Wagner Mr. ZEARFOSS. Mr. Speaker, my reading of this bill tlspford Perrl Weidner and my recollection of the other provisions of the law Dietr llill Perry Westerberg that are not included in the print of the bill would indi- llopkina Pltts Whitthey F2rnnL IIutchinson. W. Polite Wilson cate that there is no definition of what a source of income ooyle Itkin Pyles Wilt. R. w. is. Is that correct? Eckcnsherger Katr Reed Worrilow Fiseher Kelly, J. B. Renninger Wright Mr. YOHN. The language is: "Direct or indirect Fisher Klinganlan Ryan Yohn sources.. bv" name. of anv income. . . ." There is no de- Plalierty Kusse Salvatore ZeaTIosa finition of the word "source", that is correct. Foster. A. I.ehr Seheaffer Zeller Foster, W. Levi Scriea Zwikl Mr. ZEARFOSS. Now let me ask this question: If ealien there is a sole .proprietor - who has an insurance business NAYS-98 and he has numerous clients, is his source of income the .Anderson. J. H. George McLane Rugglero insurance husiness? Let us say it is Herbert K. Zearfoss, .~.,.th,, ~~ammareo ~ebus Saloom Insurance, and he has an office in Wayne, Pennsylvania. Barber Gleeson n%.lcnhorn Sehrn~tt Is his source of income then the Herbert K. Zearfoss In- Goodman Miller. M. E. Seltzer :E:zTttm Green Mi~cevicil Sheiharner surance Agency in Wayne, Pennsylvania, or is his source Rcrlin Hamilton. J. H. Moehlrnann Shelton each and every client or policyholder whom he sells in- ::,":Ed Hutchinsan. A. ~lorris Shupnik Irvis Mrkonic Smith. E. surance to who pay him more than $2,500, the way the sradley Johnson, J. Mullen, M. P. Stout hil! is now? P,1~uIvler Kelly, A. P. Mullen Taylor Cnputo Kernick Myers Tayoun Mt. YOHN. We had the same type of colloquy the last Cohen R~stler Novak Thomas time this hill was considered. It seems to me it was with Cole Knepper O'Domell Tou Mr. Gelfand but I am not sure. But he would list the 'jy&,:". O'Keefe Trello Kuwalyshyn Oliver Vann name of his company as the source; he would not list each ni~~~~t,, LaMarca Petrarca Vroon policyholder. The source is intended to he the business 7mnbromn Laudadio Pievsky Wansacz h'eibelbiq Laughlin Pratt Wargo name from which he is receiving the income. Snglehart Lederer Prendergast Wilt, W. W. Mr. ZEARFOSS. That is why I used the sole proprie- Faweett Letterman Happaport Wojdsk torship where there is no salary paid to the proprietor. :FGer Manderino Henwick Yahner McCsll Richardson Zord but the income is the draw or the profit that he makes laghe^ he^ McCiatehy Ritter which is made up from all his clients. Gania McGinnls Rornanelli Fineman. Mr. YOHN. He would then list the Herbert Zearfoss Geisler McIntyre ROSS Speaker Insurance Agency, or whatever it might be. NOT VOTING-11 Mr. ZEARFOSS. Even though it is a sole proprietor? Hutera McCraw Rieger Walsh. T. P. Mr. YOHN. That is correct. Now you will note that Daviea Milanovich Sullivan Whelan in some of the later sections of the bill, it talks about Rhodes Valicentl listing clients or customers specifically when those things So the question was determined in the negative and relate to state purchases and state contracts. Therefore Part I1 of the Yohn amendments was not agreed to. that specific term would supersede the more general term ~h,SPEAKER, ~h~ chair understands that the next ccsource." amendment begins with the words "Amend Sec. 3" and Mr. ZEARFOSS. I am only concerned about this par- ends with the statement 'c. , , provided a member,s pri- ticular provision. mary residence shall not be included." Now I assume 'Our answer he lhe same then if The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Montgomery, the doctor were operating in a sole proprietorship or a Mr. Yohn. partnership or if the lawyer were operating a sole pro- prietorship or the engineer or the architect or anyone; he Mr. YOHN. Mr. Speaker, the bill as drafted requires would have to list his clients or customers; he would the individual filing the statement to list only that real only list the husiness? estate which he owns which has been sold to the Com- monwealth, leased to the Commonwealth, or which is sub- Mr. YOITN. That is correct. ject to condemnation proceedings by the Commonwealth. Mr. ZEARFOSS. Now, Mr. Rappaport, is that your The bill that we passed last year requires disclosure by understanding of the definition of "source" in this provi- location of all real estate owned by the individual. sion? Again, I think it is a question of when you make ex- Mr. RAPPAPORT. It is. ceptions like this, it is too easy for that person who is Mr. ZEARFOSS. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. trying to hide something to find a nook and cranny in On the question, the exception into which he fits. Will the House agree to Part I1 of the Yohn amend- Therefore, the appropriate remedy would be to require ments? disclosure of all real estate. I am thinking particularly LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL--HOUSE October 16,

of the situation in relation to condemnation proceedings Mr. McCLATCHY. Mr. Speaker, would the gentleman, where, under the bill as proposed, you would only list Mr. Yohn, submit to interrogation, please? the real estate if it had been condemned. But it might The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Montgomery, very well be that a road had been altered in its course Mr. Yohn, consent to interrogation? so that it would not go through your property, and I think Mr. YOHN. Yes, Mr. Speaker. that this is something that is a subject for proper, public The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. scrutiny. I would, therefore, urge the acceptance of this Mr. McCLATCHY. Mr. Speaker, could you read in amendment. total the section as it would read if sour amendment would go in just to clarify the situation? The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Mr. YOHN. Paragraph (41, on page 7, if my amend- from Philadelphia, Mr. Rappaport. ment were inserted, would read as follows: "Direct or Mr. RAPPAPORT. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. indirect interests in any real estate by location; provided I must again differ with Mr. Yohn. This is part of the a member's primary residence shall not be included." relevant disclosure that I discussed earlier. It is entirely Mr. McCLATCHY. Thank you. Mr. Speaker. relevant and a matter of public interest if I own a piece of real estate uDon which the Commonwealth or ans of On the question, its agencies is a tenant or if it is the subject of condemna- Will the House agree to Part 111 of the Yohn amend- tion Droceedines hv the Commonwealth. and it is right lments? and proper thai that be made public. on the other ~h~ yeas and nays were required by Messrs, YOHN and when the Commonwealth is not involved in a RAPPAPORT and were as follows: real estate in any way, it is not anybody's business hut that of the member. I might point out a very practical political considera- Beren Greenfield hlcCue Seltzel tion. Many of us are not exactly in sympathy with the Berson Griew McLane Shane mayors of our cities or county commissioners or township Bittle Gring Mebus Shuman Brandt Haiverson Miiier. M. E. SmiU1. L. supervisors in certain townships. That is the American Burns Barnilton. J. H. h7ilier. M. E., Jr. Spencer political system. While I do not accuse anybody of hav- Cessar Haskell hburhirnann Stshl Cimini Hayes. D. 5. Xlusto Stapleton ing this kind of motive, many years ago-more than 25 Crawford Jlayes, S. E. Noyc Tsddonio years ago-it was the custom in Philadelphia that anyone Cumberland Heoford O'Conneli Tavlor~~. who was not in sympathy with the administration would Deverter ill O'Keeie Toll Diearlo Hopkins Pancoast Turner have their assessment raised or have inspectors crawling Dletz Hutchinson. W. Parker. H. S. Ustynoski through their properties. I would suggest that this is the Dinlnni ItMn Perri Wagner Dornbrowslrl Kata Perry Wargo great danger of political pressure on members which Dorr Kelly, J. B. Pitts Westerberg exists. Eekensberger Klingaman Polite Whittlesey Fischer Knepper Pyle~ Wilson If members must list their interest in every piece of real Fisher Kusse Reed Wilt. R. W. estate, it makes them like a deer in open season in Elk Flahem Lederer Renninger Worrilow Foster. A. Lehr Ryan Wright County, everybody can take a shot at them. Foster. W. Lev1 Salvatore Yohn If I felt that there was a reasonable public purpose to Cailen Lincoln Scheaffer Zearioss list all of them, I would not take this position, I think Geesey Lynch Scllweder Zeller it is the business of the public when the Commonwealth Gillespie Manmiller Scirica Zwikl or one of its agencies is involved. If I or a member of my family owns a location where there is a liquor store Abraham Ruggiero or the Commonwealth rents it for an employment office Anderson. J. H. Saloorn or something, it is the public's business; it very much is Arthurs Schrmtt Barber Shelhamer the public's business. Rut if I have an interest in a piece Bellomfni Shelton of investment real estate that has a McDonald's on it, Bennett Gleason Morris Shupnlk Berlin Gleeson Mrkonic Siriannl then it is not anybody's business but my own. Mr. Blackwell Goodman Mullen. M. P. Smith, E. Speaker, I would ask for a "no" vote. Bonetto Green Mullen stout Bradley Hammock Myers Tsyoun The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Brunner Hasay Novak Thomas Camto Hutchinson..-- A. O'Brien Trello from Montgomery, Mr. Yohn. Cohen Irvis O'Dunnell Vann Mr. YOHN. I just want to mention one thing. It seems Cole Johnson. J. Ollver Vroan Cowell Kelly. A. P. Petrarea wansacz to me that the threat of an assessment increase is some- Davis. D. M. Kenllck Pievsky Weidner what of a red herring in this kind of a situation, because DeMedio Kistler Pratt Whelan DiDonato Kowalyshyn Prendergast Wllt. W. W. if that were a possibility in any particular locality, cer- Doyle LaMarea Rappaport Wojdak tainly anyone who wanted to do that can do a search of Dreibelbla Lsudadio Iienu~ich Yahner the records in the courthouse and determine whether or Englehsrt Laughlin J

"Amend Sec. 3, (Sec. 5.1), page I, lines 22 and 23" and Unsecured loans in excess of $5,000, yes; but let me ends with the word "Provided,". psint out what would be within the $5,000. With the rosl of automobiles, il is conceivable that if you want to The Chair recognizes tine gentleman from h'Tontgomery, ;inance an automobile, it is going to be more than $5,000. Mr. Yohn. Yon are going to have to list that. I do not consider that Mr. YoHN. Mr. speaker, the basic intent of this Provi- to be the kind transaction that is going to corrupt the siun of the hill, as Mr. Rappaport has drafted it and as it If you want to have a home-improvement loan ~73spassed last year, is to require the disclosure of credi- your house, you have got to list that, Is that going tors who may have lent money. The bill last year re- to corrupt you? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. quired disclosure of all credit over $5,000, and that is Anyone who carries on any type of a business is going included again in this year's bill. However, there is an to have to list every one of these loans which may be additional provision which says that such loany will not compiele;y legitimate and probably are legitilnate because be listed where it is secured by sufficient real or personal they are totally secured by sufficient real estate or other property. security, such a; stocks and bonds. 1 think that the problem here is the vagueness of that It may be-not myself; I cannot afford it in this language. Because that language is vague, it would give, ecnnomy-that we have some members who speculate again, too many chances for abuse. And once that abuse cn the slock market and have margin accounts. That occurs by one individual, it then reflects on all 203 of us. would have to be listed. They owe such and such a I think that that language should be stricken so that the brokerage house, yet it is completely secured and nobody disclosure is a complete disclosure, again, as to names, not as to amounts as we had last year. can have a hammer on that member. Because of the rules of the exchange,- that broker must ask for margjns. The SPE.4ICEII. The Ch.:ir recognizes the gentleman if the stocks yo down. We may even have some members from Philadelphia, Mr. Rappaport. who are foolish enough to speculate in commodities, and Mr. RAPPAPORT. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. the same thing is true. Mr. Speaker, many 01 us attended a conference in I therefore, suggest that the problem is covered Philadelphia last week, the National Conference of State by the bill as it is presently written-unsecured loans Legislatures. It was a very fine conference and I must be listed and properly should be listed. learned a lot there. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ill one seminar, two of the speakers were Clifton White and Charles Guggenheim-one primarily a Republican: The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman th? other a Democrat-who are professional campaign from Allegheny, Mr. Caputo. managers, professianal political consultants. They gave Mr. CAPU'I'O. Mr. Speaker, I rise in opposition to the us an overview of where they think the American polit- anendment iur the reason that if this amendment provid- ical process is going to be going in the next 15 years. The ded that unsecured loans-or secured loans, for that mat- point that both of them made, and made emphatically, ter-:n excess of $5,000 would have to be listed after a is the problem that we are going to have in recrnitini: person bccumes a member of this General Assembly, it good, honorable people tii run for public office. They would not be too bad. But there is no provision that foresee-and a lot of other political commentators do- the loans mentioned in this particular section be nego- in ihe aftermath of Watergate and the overkill that is tiated after a person has become a member. Dcepite the going on, that our Congress and our legislatures will he fact that a candidate running against an incumbent woul~l Cil!ed by a bunch of iaceless eunuchs who will come here also have to list such transactions, I think that this is with no baclrground for the position and will be here, certainly a handicap that is borne by any incumhent who perhaps fortunately or unforlunately, to vote at the beck seeks to he reelected. and call of their county chairmen, which may or may Yon know, we are being criticized constantly for lhe not be a good thing. I will leave that to each member. amount of money we make here in the legislature. Any It me arc to have members here who can be inae- time we try to improve it or increase it, we are going tu pendent, we must make it possible for them to he here be criticized, not only now but in the future. The public as honest and honorable people, without having to come generally believes that we are making too much money up here as political streakers, so to speak, without any here now to worry about a loan or about borrowing any clclthing on. money. This, again, is relevant. I do not know of anybody- My particular chcclc at the end of each month after but there may very well he s0mebod~-here who is a deductions comes to between $800 and $900 a month. car dealer, who sells rars for a living. He obviously has ~~rt~~atel~,I do practice law and make enough money a line of credit from a bank. He has to have this on a to live on and to support my children, and now a new floor p!:!n. It is obviously more than $5,000. Yet that grandchild. But there are members in this Eouse and line of credit is totally secured with his automobiles. ill my delegation who would he embarrassed if they had Or he may own a business property or an insurance bucl- to say how much they owed, and some of them owe me. ness and he may have a morlgagt! on that. That is also I hrive carried them for months and months. I am no one's business. The bank is totally secured. serious about that. I have, on many occasions, loaned a The evil that we are trying to cure here is the evil of member of my delegation and other memhers of this unsecured loans to political candidates, the loan to good House money from between the 20th of the month and old Joe whom I know. He is running and we have got tcl the 1st of the next month who needed it lo carry over help good old Joe, so I am going to loan him $30,000 to and pay their bills at home until they got paid the fol- help him run. Unfortunately, we have an accusation like lowing month. Fortunately, I would say of those pres- that against our district attorney in Philadelphia. Thai ently still in the Assembly, they are 100 percent good is the evil we are seeking to cure. credit, without interest. But I have a list of persons who LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16, are no longer with us who still owe me, including a than the market rate would be, and this would then Senator, incidentally, from Philadelphia. certainly be a possibility for abuse, and I thinlr it is Mr. Speaker, I ask this House to vote against this something that the public is entitled to know and to amendment because I do not think the hill needs further make a judgment upon. amendment. For these reasons, I would submit that this amend- ment is proper, and I would request your support for The SPEAKElt. The Chair recognizes the gentleman the same. from Lehigh, Mr. Zeller. Mr. ZELLER. Mr. Sneaker. the nrevious two amend- The SPEAKER. The Chair rccoenizes- the gentleman ments I went along with because I felt we must have from Lehigh, Mr. Zeller. disclosure, although it was cornme si, comme sa. I felt Mr. ZELLER. Would the gentleman, Mr. Yohn, con- it was something that definitely we should lock into sent to interrogation? and support. Jiowever, I believe that this particular The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Montgon~ery, amendment is delving into our personal lives entirely Mr. Yohn, consent to interrogation? too closely. If you have a $5,000-debt, having borrowed Mr. YOHN. Yes. from your brother or a cousin, I think this is going into The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. our personal lives absolutely too far. Mr. ZELLER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This bill reminds me of the old medicine man traveling Mr. Speaker, would you designate or say that the through the country area with his snake medicine, a bill designates that cousins or my brother-in-law, my cure-.all to cure everything. I feel that it is about time uncle, my aunt would be considered exempt? that we have got to vote against this one because this is Mr. YOHN. Yes; the language r~fthe bill states that getting into our personal lives entirely too closely. 1 ". . . loans or credit extendcd betwcen members of the believe in disclosure, but this is going far afield. I think immediate family and mortgages of public record shall it should be defeated. not be included." That was an amendment that was put in last year. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Mr. ZELLER. Mr. Speaker, can you tell me that mem- from Montgomery, Mr. Yohn. bers of the immediate family are uncles and cousins? Is Mr. YOHN. Mr. Speaker, in response to some of the not the immediate family considered and your comments that have been raised, I would point out, first of all, to Mr. Zeller that the loans between members of YOHN, I am just looking now. I have not luu:rcd the family are exempted under the language in the bill for this in a l,,ng lime, but it seemed to mc that we did and would remain exempt. put an amendment in last year defining immedial? Secondly, in response to Mr. Caputo, I am a littie family, and I do not see it in here right now. Perhaps worried about the standard of living of some of thosf M~.~~~~~~~~t, who drafted the bill, could answer that Alleghcny County members who need more than $5,000 question. betwcen the 20th and the 30th of the month. The bill M,, ZELLER. well, this is our fear, because I men- applies only to loans over $5,000, not to any loans of a tioned cousins when I was on the floor. I did say my lesser amount. brother, but I meant my brother-in-law and cousins and I would also point out to Mr. Caputo that it does apply people lilce that, This is what I was getting at. We to candidates. If he will refer to page 9 of the bill, Para- realize that my immediate family is exempt, but my im- graph (b), the last paragraph on page 9, the entire bill mediate family is my wife and my children and my and the entire disclosure concept applies not just to us as nlothcr my father. so when I was talking about members but also to people who run as candidates. brothers-in-law and my cousins and my mother-in-law, I believe very firmly in that because it certainly is a it may be they are not exempt from and I feel legitimate public inquiry for members of the public to you are going too far afield here. ~h~tis why I men- know the situation with reference to candidates as well tioned it, as those who are incumbents. I think, too, in response to Mr. Rappaport, I should On the question, point out that the bill exempts your mortgage on your Will the House agree to Part IV of the Yohn amend- home....-.--, -~so that when he was talking- about home improve- ments? ments on your particular home, that would not be in- volved in the disclosure. The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. YOHN and I think that the basic weakness of this particular sec- RAPPAPORT and were as follows: tion is the word "sufficient," because I think that the YEAS-90 word "sufficient" is like the word "reasonable" that we lawyers always use. It is a word that is very susceptible B~~~~ Gillespie Miller, M. E. Shelharner to interpretation, and I submit that it is going to be sub- BerSOn GrleeO Miller, M. E.. Jr. Shuman Bittle Grlng Mlluron Smlth, L. ject to abuse and it is going to be subject to abuse by one *,,,at Haiverson Musto Spencer pcrson, but when that happens, it is going to reflect ad- Bums Haskeli Myers Stahl cessar Ixayes. D.S. Noye Stapleton versely on all the rest of us. Cimini Hayes. S. E. O'connell Taddonlo Finally, I would point out that this bill is not intended Cohen Hepford OlKeefe Taylor Hill Pancoast Toll just to require disclosure of unsecured loans to candi- E,",",'zandHutchinson. W. Parker. H. S. Turner dates. There are other potential abuses. I have never Dicarlo Itkin Pitts Ustynoski Katz Polite Wagner heard of this happening but I think it is quite possible giE&nl lielly, J. B. Pyles Wansacz that somebody in the legislature, a candidate for the omb brows kt ling am an ~eed Westerberg Knepper Renninger Whlttlesey legislature, could receive a loan from a bank or savings Eckensberger Kunse Ryan Wilson and loan or whate>er at a much lower rate of interest maer Lehr Salvatore Wilt. R. W. 1975. LEGISLATIVE JOURNAkHOUSE 3043

Fisher Levi Scheaffer Worrilow five years or until a successor is appointed and quali- Foster, A. Lincoln Schweder Wright fied. Thereafter each annointment shall be for a term of Foster. W. Lynch Scir~ca Yohn five years or until a sGessor is appointed or qualified. Gallen Manmill~r~ soltsrr Zearfoss Geesey McCue Shane Zord (c) The members of the cornmiision shall hold no George Mebus other public position with any State agency nor shall members he eligible for anv office or nosition filled hv appointment of The over nor or filled 6y any legislative member within two years after termination of their Abraham Ross membership on the commission. No person who, within Anderson. J. A. Ruggiero two years preceding his appointment, has been an officer Arthurs Saloom of a political party. a public officer, a legislator or legis- Barber Schmltt Bellomin1 Sheltan lative employe shall be eligible to serve as a commis- Bennett Shupnlk sloner. Rerlln Slnannl I (d) Each member of the commission shall receive Blackwell Smlth, E. actual traveling expenses and per diem compensation at Bonetto stout the rate of one hundred dollars ($100) per day for the Bradley Tayaun time actually devoted to the business of the commission. Brunner Thomas Caputo TreUo (el Any person appointed as a member of the com- Cole Vann mission shall be a citizen and leeal resident of the Cowell Vroon Commonwealth for a period of not 'less than one year. Crawford Wargo (f) The Governor may only remove a member of the Davis, D. M. Weidner rommisslan for malfeasance or misfea~ancein office or DeMedio Whelan for neglect of duty. The Governor shall provide such Doyle Wllt, W. W. member with a statement in writing of the charges Dreihelbb Wold* Fnzlehart Yahner against him, and shall afford him, after notice of not Faweett Zeller less than ten days, an opportunity nf making a written Fee Zwlkl answer and upon request being publicly hcard in person Flaherty by counsel. A copy of the charges and answer to the Fryer Flnman, Governor's findings and a transcript of the record shall Gallagher Speake3 be filed with the executive director of the commission. Garzla Section 5.3. Powers and Dulies of the Commission.- NOT VOTING-13 The commission shall have the following powers and

"U".><.rh.tiar Butera ~etterman Rllodes Sullivan (1) The commission shall be authorized to establish, Uanies MrGraw Rieger Vallcenti adopt and amend such rules and rcqulations, In ac- D7Donnto iTilanovich Rnmanelli Walsh, T. P. cordance with the act of July 31, 1968 (P. L. 769, No. Jlillnaon, J. 240), kncuin as the "Commonwealth Documents Law," as are necessary to implement the prnvisinns of this act. the ij,,e5 was determined in the negative s;, (2) The commission shall initiate, receive and consider Part IV of the Yohn amendments was not agreed 1% charges concerning alleged violations of ethics laws, ini- tiate or make investigations, and hold hearings. Thc SPEAIiER. The last amendment consists of thr (3) ~h~ commission may witnesses, ad- !a.:t four lines of the original amendment. minister oaths, and take testimony relating to matters before it and require thc production for examination of ANIENDMENT WITHDRAWN any hooks or papers relative to any matter under investi- gation or in question before it. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman (4) The commission shall have jurisdiction for pur- from Montgomery, Mr. Yohn. poses of investigation and taking appropriate action on alleged violations of ethics laws during the term of ap- Mr. YDHN. Mr. Speaker, we have not :hanged any pointment. election or employment of a member and votes on this concept, su I will withdraw that amend- for a period of two terms after a member has left his mcnt 2nd procecd to amendment No. 2. position with a State agency. (5) The commission may distribute its publications without cost to the pub!ic and shall initiate and maintain ANNOIJPCEMENT programs with the purpose of informing the citizenry and public servants on matters of ethics in government em- The SPEAKER. For the benefit of the information of ployment. the mcmbrrs, the Chair has extended pcrn~ission li (6) The conlmission may establish forms for public \'jTAE.TV of pittsburgh to taiie some televisinn disclosure statements and such other forms as are neces- sary to imnlement this act. The fnrms shall be consis- shots, so be at your best, ladies and gentlemen. tent with the provisions of the ethics laws. (7) The commission shall have the authority to emplov On the question, its own legal counsel and an executive director, and such Kill the House agree to the bill as amended on third other personnel including investigative help, as is neces- i.onsideration? sary to implement the provisions of this act; the com- OH^ requested and obtained unanimous mission shall be authorized to fix the compensation of personnel it employs. to offer the following amcndments, which were read: (8) Upon request of the commission, the state police ~~~~d Set, (Set. 5,2), page lines through 23, and the Attorney General shall provide thc commission by striking out all of said lines and inserting: with reasonable assistance not inconsistent with the or- section 5.2. creationof ~~~~i~~i~~;Qualifications: derly operation of their respective departments. Rcmova1.-(a) The Ethics and Public Disclosure Commis- (9) The commission shall have the power to administer sion is hereby established as an independent commission and carry out the provisions of this act and to take any of the Commonwralth. The commission shall consist of other actlon authorized by this or any nther law. three mcmbers of outstanding character and reputation Section .54 Procerlure upon Receipt or Tnitiation of a not mnre than one of whom shall he a 1-wycr and not Comp1a;nt by the Commission.-(a) A charge may be more than two of whom shall be from the same political initiated by either vote of a mnjnrity of the commission party. All members of the commission shall be ap- or through a sworn complaint charging a viclstion under pointed by the Governor with the consent of the Senatc. ethics laws signed by a citizen of the Commonwealth. (b) Of the original men~hers,all of wb:jm shall he The rrmmission shall notify in writing any person against appointed within forty-five days after the effective date whom a charge is initiated or received, hereinafter re- of lh~sact, one shall be appointed for a term of one ferred to as the person chareed and afford him an year, on? for a term of three years, and one for a term of opportunity to explain the conduct alleged to be in LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16, violation of the ethics laws. The commission shall in- law which relates to certain prohibitions as to things vestigate all charges on a confidential basis, having all the powers herein provided. that members of the legislature are not allowed to do. Hol>efully, when this bill is passed, we will also have a (b) ~f the commission determines that the charges war- rant further action, a copy of the charge and a further disclosure requirement setting forth other things that statement of the alleged violation shall be personally members and candidates are required to disclose to the served up0n the person charged. Such person public. The question then hecomcs, who in to enforce have twenty days after service thereof to respond in writing to the charge and statement. All proceedings at those provisions? this stage by the commission shall he confidential. When I initially prepared the Legislhtive Code of Section 5.5. Procedure for Determination of a Violation. ~~l~i~~,the disclosure bill, last year or years ago, it --(a) Twenty days following personal service, the com- mission shall set a time and place for a hearing giving was the feeling at that time of the members of the Ethics notice to the complainant, where applicable, and to the Committee that because we were running for election party charged. every 2 years, we would be filing all these disclosure (b) ~llparties shall have an opportunity to be heard, to subpoena witnesses and require the production of any . . and they would be Unfortunately, hoolrs or papers relative to the proceedings, to be repre- smce that time we have had some experience with thc sented by counsel, and to have the right of cross exam- executive disclosures where at least two cabinet ofiiceri, ination. All hearings shall be in accordance with the although they have stated that lhey have made public act of June 4, 1945 (P. L. 1388, No. 442), known as the "Administrative Agency Law." Witnesses shall testify disclorIires, have not in fael dnnc so, and it was later under oath and the hearings shall be closed to the discovered this had not happened. It was not discovereri public unless the party charged requests an open hearing, thrcugh any ~nforcementmechanism within the exeni- All testimony and other evidence taken at the hearing five branch. shall be recorded. So this amendment would provide for an enforcement (c) A decision by the commission adverse to the party charged shall contain relevant findings of fact mechanism, an independent enforcement commission. shall be, made public. All other records, documents, and The commission will be, insofar as that i~ possible, in- papers Including investigative reports and hearing tran- sulated from politics, because the nlembers will have scripts shall remain confidential except with respect to transmission to the appropriate authorities in accordance staggered tei.ms; lhey will not bc allowed to h?ve pul>li- with the provision? of this act. office before and after their appointment for a 2-year Section 5.6. Orders and Recommendations of the Com- period; and they can be removed from the commissicr, mission.-A decision bv ?he commisqion adverse to the on!y for malfeasance or misfeasance. so the comminsii;n party charged, which decision shall be published in the Pennsylvan?a Bulletin, shall contaln any one or more of itself be, to possible, insulated irom the follow~ng recommendations or orders, where ap- politics. plicable: I think that this is an essential aspect of enforcing this (1) A recommendation for criminal prosecution which type of legislative code ethics, because we liave seen sha;l be referred to the Attorney General for appropriate ~h~ ~tt~~~~~~~~~~~l sixty days of that it does not work in the executive branch and we d:, receipt of such recommendation, make a decision whether not have an independent commission. I think that all of to prosecute the party charged, which decision shall be us on the Ethics Committee feel that we are put in a most published in the Pennsylvania Bulletin. The Attorney difficult position when we have to make judgments on General may initiate upon his own motion or refer the case for prosecution to the district attorney othpr members with whom we arc working day in and with appropriate jurisdiction. day out. (2) A recommendation for dismissal in the case of ~~d,finally, it seems to me that if we put this inde- members other than Senators or Representatives shall be pendent cnforccment commission into effect, wc will !jr referred to the Speaker of the House or President Dro tempore of the senate who make a decision within establishing much greater credibility with the public hv sixty days on whether to dismiss such member, which de- reason of the fact that we are attempting to do a joh in cision shall he published in the Penn?ylvauin Bulletin. this most difficult field. (3) A recommendation of dismissal in the case of elect- ed legislative members shall he referred to the respective lhankyou. House for consideration of dismissal proceedings, which proceedings shall be recorded in the respective House 'The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Journal. frcm Philadelphia, Mr. Rappaport. (4) An order requiring the party charged to divest himself of any interest deemed in violation of ethics laws ''Ir. RAPPAPORT. Thank yous S!'eaker. or requiring the uarty charged to conform his conduct to This, again, is a very basic concept of this bill, and the provisions of ethics laws. Any, Party aggrieved by I hope I do not upset the majority leader when I ~tate such order shall be entitled to judlclal revlew in accord- that I prefer to keep some things out of the executive ance with the procedures set forth in the act of June 4 1945 (p.L. 1x88, NO. 442), known as the u~d~~~i~t~~ti~;branch, hecause 1 do not always feel that some @f th., Apency I.aw." appointments over there are the wisest ones. (5) Snch other orders as are necessary and appropriate We are the legislative branch. I think th? cc:mmission and as are consistent with the intent and purpose of this ide;, is a very fine one for executive branch becauqrl act and elhics laws.

of the widespread activities and differing~ types~- of posi- On the cluestion, tions that are in the executive branch. Here in the Will the Honse asree to the amendments? House we are concerned only with ourselves, and I might say this hill also includes all of our employes making The SPEAI(ER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman more than $15.000, . a vear, mhlch. in essence. means the from Montgomery, Mr. Yohn. professional staff on- both sides cf the aike who. of Mr. YOHN. Mr. Speaker, this is the amendment desig- course, should be included. nated "No. 2" on the members' desks. It has been my feeling that it is our job, however un- The basic import of this amendment goes to the issue pleasant it may h-and I mipht say being on the Ethics of who is going to enforce the provisions of the Legisla- Committee in the last several months has not been the tive Code of Ethics. We have a code of elhics in present most pleasant job in this House-that we must take care LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE

- of cleaning our own house and not pass the buck to the thls comn~ission being registered to vote. As a matter rsecutive branch or some commission living in an ivory I of fact, they are appointed by the Governor. They are tower that has no concept of the day-to-day problems going to he confirmed by the Senate, the very people that we facc. whom they will he investigating. Is this not strange? Let me just say this at this point: Every member of / As a matter of fact, we are getting it for free now, and this House-and I have said it before in this debate-is a I we are creating another bureaucracy. What I think we target for every typ? of accusation, and all wc can do is ought to do is allow the press and allow the people like rieny it and we have very little recourse. Under the libel Bnb Casey or whoever will be in that position next to laws as lhcy now stand, anybody can call us anything and do the job. We get it for free, so let us not go and we cannot even sue them. And it is only another legis- rrcate any more costs. Vote it down. lator, another public official, who understands these problems. PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY ,.inere , h-s never been an accusation that the Elhics The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Commiitec--at lead as long as I have heen on it, and from Luzerne, Mr. Hasay. For what purpose does th? it was created before I became a member; I know af none gentleman rise? even in the history of the committee-has covered up Mr. HASAY. I rise to a parliamentary inquiry. anything for any member. The SPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. L'Iost of the things that arc dec1.-rt.d or should hc 1 llr. HASAY. Does not thii: amendment need a fin4 illegal for a member are also crimes. Accepting a bribe note attached to it? f.;r a sc te is a crime and is prosecuted and should he Mr. YOHN. A fiscal note was distributed 2 weeks ago. prosecuted by tile regular district atforneys. Other such Mr. HASAY. Oh, was it? I am sorry. Thank you.

crimes as false campaign~ ~ reports and the like are also ~rimcs,and I am anticipating an argument for later cn. 1 The SPEAKER. The Chair rfccgnizes the gentleman Therefore, most of the business of the committee ir frixn Lehigh, Mr. Zeller. terms uf actual investigations will not be for crimc. Mr. ZELLER. I would like to add, though, that if hut for that gray area where reasonable people can anybody rrad it, it is $100 a day. I 60 not know if you 6iffrr. saw that figure, hut it is a real nice juicy plum-expenses Xo? a mon:h goes by lhat we do not receivc an in- for erch one of the commission members. This is really I'ormal rer;uet for an opinion from a ~ncmberof the a juicy one. As a matter of fact, I would like to $e! Housr ai to what that member should he doing in o appainied to that. It would be pretty nice. narticular circu.mstance. These are inquiries, aga'n. hy On lhe question honest and honorable people who want a guideline in ;. amendments? siluation where they feel that the rules are not. exulicjt the House as io their particular case. The yeas znd nays were re~uiredby L'Iessrs. YOIIN and Can a member be an officer of a charitable fcrlnda- RAPPAPORT and were as follows: tion that receives money from the state to carry aut ccr- tr;n functions? That is a vcry good qucstiun. We hap- YEAS-72 pened to answer in the nflirmative. 'It is something upon B~~~~ Grfeeo McCue Sham which reasnnahle people can differ. But, again, it i:- Bittle Gring Mebus Smith. I.. Brandt Halverson Miller. M. E. Spencer only another legislator who really is in a position t(! Hasay Miller, M. E.. Jr. Stahl judge on something like that. Cessar IIaskeIl Moehlrnann Stapleton Crawford Hayes D. S. Musto Taddonlo I. frankly, do not trust these hlue-ribbon cornmissicnp Cumberland mayes:S.~. ~oye Turner in the executive branch, and the problem with profes- Deverter Hepford O'ConneU UstmoskI Hi11 Paneoast Warner simal licensing now in the executive hrbnch I think ii :;:&,,, Hopld~ Parker. H. S. Wddner the best arrument against this amendment. RZr. Speaker ~orr Hutrhlnsm. W. Pitt~ Whittlesey I would like to ask for a "no" vote. Fischer I

Doyle Laudadto Rappaport Whelan Will the House agree to the amendment? Dreibelbh Laughlin Rennlnger Wilt. W. W. Eckensberger Lederer Renwifk Wojdak Amendment was agreed to. Englehart Lehr Rlchardsan Yahner Fawett Letterman Rleger Zeller On the question recurring, Fee Llncoln Rttter Zwlkl Will the House agree to the hill as amended on third Flaherty Manderlno Romanell1 FrVer MeCall ROSS Fineman. consideration? Gallagher McClatchy Rugglero Speaker Mr. YOHN requested and obtained unanimous consent McGInnIs Gards to offer the following amendment, which was read: NOT VOTING-10 Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 4.1), page 6, line 8, '.y inserting Johnson. J. Rhodes V.U~entl after "law": because anticipated expenditures relative McGraw Sullivan WM,T. P. to the contract are less than an amount which requires Milanovlch competitive bidding So the question was determined in the negative and On the question, the amendments were not agreed to. Will the House aeree to the amendmc~t? The SPEAKER. Does the gentleman from Montgom- The SPEAKER. The Chair rel,:ii:niz?s the gentleman ery, Mr. Pohn, have additional amendrncnts? from Montgomery, nlr. Yohn. Mr. YOIIN. Yes, Mr. Speaker. Amendment No. 3 . ~ Mr. YOHR. Mr. Speaker, amendment No. 4 is a has been agreed to. 1 technical clarification. There was some lang~~agein the On the ~uestionrecurring, bill which exempted those contracts which required com- Will the House agree to the bill as amended on third petitive bidding. Well, I am not exactly sure whal, the consideration? language is at the present moment. But in any event, Mr. YOHN requested and obtained unanimous consent this is to make it clear that that exemption applies only to offer the following amendment, which was read: to those contracts where you do not need competitive hidding because of the fact that they are under the Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 4.1), page 4, lines 18 through 21, by striking out all of said lines and inserting: $1,500 or $2,000 limitation, and it does not apply lo those (g) No member nor any business entity with which contracts in which there is no compc~titiv~.bidding 11~- such member has an ownership interest in excess of five cause of the fact that they are proIessional contraci::. perccnt or is an officer, director, employe or partner shall such as those of architects, engineers and attiirrieys. enter into any contract with a State agency which con- Is this an agroed-to amendment also'! tract is to he paid in whole or in part out of State The SPEAKER. funds unless the contract has been awarded through a Mr. YOHN. Yes, Mr. Speaker. process of public notice and competitive bidding. On the question recurring, On the question, Will the House agree to the nmendmcnt? Will the Ilouse agree to the amendment? Amendment was agreed to. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman On the cluestion recurring, from Montgomery, Mr. Yohn. Will the House agree to the bill as amended on third Mr. YOHN. Mr. Speaker, amendment No. 4 has also consideration? been agreed to. Mr. YOHN requested and obtained unanimous consent The SPEAKER. The clerk will read the amendment. to offer the fnllowing amendment, which was read: POINT OF ORDER Amend Bill, page 10, by inserting between lines 23 and -A.?A. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Section 5.3. Orders and Recommendations of the Com- from Lehieh. Mr. ~itt~~.F~~ what nurDose does the/ mittee.-* decision by the committee adverse to the tirh~---- decision shall be nublished in the relrrrbyLvaLlld ~~~~etin.shall eont:~in any one or more of Mr. RITTER. I rise lo a point of order. the following recommendati,,ns or orders, wherc ap- The SPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. I ulicable: Mr. speaker, I realize that the amend- ' (I) A rccomr?endation.~ .>. for criminalP. Mr. RITTER. prosecution7 "... ------.-A- whirh rerreo ro rne ririuriier ur~lrl-a,LC,~ app~upila~c ments may very well have been agreed to by Mr. Rappa- ~~~~~~e %' e Attorney General shall, within sixty days of port, but I think we are talking about something which ,,,,ipt of s-.---:n>rh rrromrnendation,--~ make a decision whether is .~.mine ., to affect our conduct. I think the lcast urc to orosccutc the Inrly charged, which derision shall be ought to hr:ve is an explanetion of the amendments. puhllshed in the-pennsylvania Bulletin. The Attorney C-cneral may initiate prosecution upon his mvn motion or The SPEAKER. The -zentleman's mint of order is / .:: .. ,se for prosecution to the district all"rney with well taken. The rules of the House require an explana- i~~risdiction. tion of amendments. :ndaticn for dismissal in the rase of members other than Senators or Representatives shall be The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Montgomery. referred to the Speaker of the House or President pro Mr. Yohn, in connection with amendment No. 3 for a tempore of the Senate who shall make a decision within brief explanation. sixty days on whether to dismiss such member, which decision shall be publ~shedin the Pennsylvania Bulletin. Mr. YOHN. Yes, Mr. Speaker. Amendment No. 3 (3) A recommendation of dismissal in t,he case of relates to section 3, page 4, lines 18 through 21, and just elected legislative members shall he referred to the adds the words "business entitv" so that the nrovisian resuective House for consideration of dismissal proceed- applies not just to the memder individually 'hut also in& which proceedings be record ed in the respcc-

tive House ~uurnal.~ ~~~~- to any business entity with which such member has an (4) An o,~L,er.. >... re< 7uirini: the pariy charjied to divest him- ownership interest in excess of 5 percent or is an of- self of anv juteres t deemed in violation of ethics laws or ficer, dirwtor, employe, or partner to conform his conduct to Any party aggrieved by On the question recurring, to judicial review in ae- LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE cordance with the procedures set forth in the zct of in that very strongly, that no order against a membcr June 4, 1945 (P. L. 1388, No. 442), known as the "Ad- should bc apnesi3hle by the memhcr or by anyhody c!s:. ministrative Agency Law." tri any othcr branch nf government. (5) Such other ordcrs as ;re necessary and appro- priate and are with the intent and have the ultimate sanction here of publicity. I am of this act and ethics 1ax.v~. liositivc !hat should thc Ethics Committee critic:ce any On the question, member i!r thal member rzfu~eto cnmnly with wen n private rcqurst cl the Ethics Committee when thzt re- Will the House agree to the amendment? quest was considered very strongly by the cnmmittee and The SPEAKER. The Chair 1-ecognizzs thp gentlem:,n the cornmillee makes that public, thzt mcmber is wing from Bhntgumcry, Mr. Yohn. to have a heck of an clectinn fight the next time he runs. Mr. YOHN. Mr. Speaker. under the 1,rgislative Codc May I remind my co1leaguc.s that we run every 2 yea:;. of Ethics rs passed by the legislature in IOeR, there is a That is the iiltirnatc s:inction lhat exists for elected mem- provision in the cod'. thi.1. m~lrcsviolations i:f the :am> ber; of the General Assembly, The Scnators have a B criminal p?nalty. In Mr. Rappaport's draft of the l;ill, littlc hit more leeway. They have to far? the people it clinlinatcs that penal penalty. every 4 years. We all know what it is lo havc fight",. I arc in ::precrnent with that in the ev:,nt lhal we c:in \irh.p:hrr it is primary fights or general clccticn fiphi.i. supplement that or replace that with some other pcnli! Any niemlicr who would have any publicity about his ties. I 311, afraid that under thc bill as drnftrd, thc only ethical conduct in this House would be s1u-e to have a penalty is that somc or thesc things mieht be a violation fight rind probably !OSE. I personally lhink this is cf the Crimes Code for other rexrcns, hut there would be -:~ifirirntsnnr:ion without going to the conrts or to the no penalty for violations of the Code of Ethics. Therc- executive branch or to anyone else. fwe, this an?endment contains a list r;f things which i Mr. Syaker. I u~riulrllikc to ask f?r a "n?" vi,te. feel are appropriate actions for the Ethics Cummiitce to The SPEAKER. Th" Chair recognizes the gmtleman lake in the event that they feel there has heen a viola- tion of the code. from Montgomery, Mr. Yohn. IVIr. YOIIN. Mr. Speaker, I rannot quite accept the The first is a recommendation to the appropriate au- rationale of Mr. Rxppaport, because under the hill as we ihrr~itiesfix criminal prosecution. The second is a recon- :re rurrently talking about it, there are no pcnaitiei. mendation to lhe House iir Senate--wlia!ever the apgr:l- Thvn he is saying that he could agree with most or what prisi? hody might hi.--for dismissa: of the ;mpit,ye nr iiirl, ny yci.h'ilosophy occasinnally. himself o.' any interest dccmed in violation of ethics laws >.q:iay I remind ihe Iiouse lha:. only recently we had thr or requiring . . . ." him to do anything else is enfcree- s?? duty of expelling a mcmhcr. Should t:ie Elhicq Com- able. But it also says: 'Any party nggriercrl by such mittee find that a member is reralritrant and it is a <;rcier shall he entitled ti) judicial rovicw in arcordance serious enough matter to refer to the floo~. nftei- t:rc with t11:- procedures set forth in the . . . ad mini strati.:^ inve5ti:atinn called for under rule 47, this House has thc Agency Law.' " perfect rir:ht to expel such mcmber. It is a rather scriorls Nr. Speaker, this goes hack to an earlier argument I thing to do; we do it with a heavy heart; but wc haw mnde. The legis!alive branch should nnt he in the p:x- 1,i 0 t J C~Tnnt ccnsider the F!hics Commit- tisn of l.fCerrinq its ~lirlylaundry to iitiath~i.branch CItee ta be infallible. We are all fallible human beings, vrry government. The members may not he aware of ih; fi~llibit~.H~iurever, ccnslitntionally that cannot he a$,- iaet that somc of the officers of this IIouse, including pealed froin. myself. arc ~rescntlydefendants in a lawsuit brought hy As n~mlhcrs,uic do nnt hrvc thc consti:utional ri~ht former Representative Sweeney, and we ha.:+? filed s de 1:; hc a member cf th:s General Assemb!y. Wc holil a fense stating that no action of this IIouse is rci~ieval;!*c l,y scat at the plcas~~reof onr dktricts, providrd we hchavc any coui't in terlns of disciplining of its own mc:l~b~rs.ciurselves in r:uch n iranncr ih;t tuio-thirds of our col- That is the way !he constitution reads nou7, and I helierc leagues do nlt s~cfit to throw us out. Since memhprc 3848 LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE October 16, have been expelled only three times in the history of tive of the committee be brought to the floor of the House this Comm~nwealth, I would suggest that that power for approval or disapproval by this body? is not used capriciously or too hastily. Rut nevertheless, Mr. YOHN. There is no such provision in the amend- thet sanction is there. ment, no. In that particular situation, a divestiture sit- And I also reiterate that the real sanction, the sanction uation, he would have his review in the court, because it that is the one that hits home, is the publicity sanction, then really a matter of interpretation of the statute as Political careers are ruined by just one newspaper article. to whether or not the memher has conformed with the How much more so would a member suffer if the ~thi~sprovisions of the statute. Committee filed a public report saying that member X Mr. CAPUTO. Well, then. the eight members of the owns 25 percent in an architectural firm than has &ten Ethics Committee would then he in a position, under your $10 million worth of business from the nepartment of amendment, to order divestiture, which only the court General Services on a nonbid basis. what happen could change. Is that right? The House would have noth- to that particular member? He would not he here too to say about Your order. much longer, if he were not immediately expelled. Mr. YOHN. That is correct. That would be the proce-' I therefore would suggest a ''no" vote on this, q,dure in that type of situation. Speaker. Mr. CAPUTO. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, where creatures created by this House. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman members of this specific committee, are to he given the fram Allegheny, Mr. Capulo. authority to do an act that is not subject to the approval Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, would the gentleman, Mr of this body, I feel is an unwarranted delegation of power Yohu, consent to brief interrogation? to specific members of the committee. For that reason, I The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Montgomery, would ssk for a "no" vote on the amendment. Prlr. Yohn, consent to interrogation? Mr. YOHN. Yes, Mr. Speaker. On the question recurring, Th- SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. Will the House agree to the amendment? Mr. CAPTITO. Mr. Speaker, to clarify his statement. The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. YOHN and I would like to ask: If the Ethics Committee found a ~~pp*po~~and were as follows: member in violation of what they consider as ethical ron- duct of the House, could the Ethics Committee, in and of itself, expel a member? Beren Grlng MIller, M. E. Mr. YOMN. No, sir. eittle Halvenon Miller. M. E.. If you will look at section (3) of the amendment, if !Iamllton. J. K. Mirccvich Spencw Rums Haskell Noye Stahl there is something which the Ethics Committee felt jus- cesear Hayes. D. 5. O'Connell Stepleton tified dismissal or removal of a member from the House, Cirninl Hayes. S. E. O'Keefe Tsddonio Hepfoiord Parker. H. S. Turner they would then make a recommendation to the particu- and Hill Perrl Ustynaaki lar House. It would obviously not be binding on this oevrrter Hopkins Pitts Vmon House; it would not he binding on the Senate. It is for Hutehimon. W. Pyles Wagner :j;ym Katz Reed Westerberg those bodies to make that determination. All the Ethics ~ellv.J. R. Rennlneer WhIttlerey Committee would he doing is making a recommendation. Fiseher Wilson Fisher Wilt, R. W. I would also point out that all of the examples that voskr, A. Worrllow Mr. Rappaport was giving relate, again, to the dismissal or Foster. W. Wright Yohn removal of a member from the House of Representatives. :::& Zearloss The judicial-review provision in the amendment applies Gillespla Zord only to section (4), which relates to orders from the Ethics Committee to divest a particular financial interest or to conform your conduct in a particular way. oallsmer Msnderiro Romsnelll So I think that he is correct that in a situation of re- Garria McC~ll Ross moving a member from this House, that is a decision of :z:z, GP~SIP~ Mmlatchy Rugglero the flouse and the constitutio~lallaw is well settled on Barber Deorge McGinnis Sabom Rellaminl Glnrnmnreo McIntyre Schmltt that. This amendment would not affect that. Jennet( OIllette McLnne S.elt'LeT What I am concerned about is the situation where a Gleeson Menhorn Shelhamcr E;;ftn ~oodman Milllron Shelton member owns some asset that is felt to be improper. In Rlack- Green Moehlrnann Sbuman that situation I do not think it should be solely a matter Bonetto Greenfield Morris Shupnik Grleeo Mrkonlc Taylor for the eight-member Ethics Committee to determine. I ~~~~~r Hammnck Must0 TayOUn think that the memher should have a right to some type caputo Thomru of judicial review as to whether or not his conduct in this Toll E:km Trello

item is in conformance with the law. I think probably cowel, - ~~ vum whether we give it to him in this amendment or not, he Davis. D.M. Johnson. I. Oliver wpnliaez Kelly. A. P. Pnneoast wargo would have it constitutionally, hut I think we should set g:E2 Rellllek Perry Weldner it out in the amendment specifically. DiDonato Kistler Petrarca Whe1an CombmonLl Kolter Pieooky Wflt. W. W. Mr. CAPUTO. Thank you. DO,,' Kowalyshm Polite Woldsk Mr. Speaker, I just want to find out, is there an inter- D'eihelbb LaMar~a Pratt Zekensberger Laudadlo Rendergad mediate step between an order of the committee directing Englehart Lauzhlln Rapge~ort a member to divest himself of some financial interest and Fawcett ~cllercr Renwick Lehr Richardson the :?up?!lascprui.i

NOT VOTING-I1 a sort of temporary, one-time type payment in excess of $100. I am not saying you should not receive them. I am Butera Milanovieh Rhodes VallEenti Davlea ~ullcn,21. P. stout ~*h,T. p. not saying it is not proper to receive them. I am simply nlccraw Eilullen Sullivan saying that any honorarium in excess of $100 probably So the question was determined in the negative and the he as public record' amendment was not agreed to. Mr. McCLATCHY. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On the question recurring, The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Will the House agree to the bill as amended on third from Allegheny, Mr. Caputo. For what purpose does the consideration? gentleman rise? Bill as amended was agreed to. Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, before you take another amendment, I want to ask Mr. Shane a question also. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman The SPEAKER. Does the gentleman understand that from Philadelphia, Mr. Rappaport. the amendment has already been adopted by the House? Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, I understand the gen- Mr. CAPUTO. Yes, but if I can get some information, I tleman, Mr. Shane, has an amendment. may move for reconsideration of the amendment. The SPEAKER. The Chair is in error. The SPEAKER. The gentleman is in order and may The Chair reconsiders its decision as to this bill having proceed. been aqreed to the third time. Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, would this amendment apply also to a candidate for public office, a candidate for On the question recurri'ng, the General Assembly? Will the House agree to the bill as amended on third SHANE, I am going to have to rely on the two ex- consideration? perts on the bill. My amendment simply inserts on page Mr. SHANE requested and obtained unanimous consent 9. hetween lines 16 and 17, as item 10 in that long to offer the following amendment, which was read: list. honorariums over 5100. Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 5.11, page 9, by inserting between I think I had better defer to PIT. Rappaport and Mr. lines 16 and 17: (10) Any honorarium received which is in excess of Yohn as to the imertion at that point and how it would one hundred dollars ($100). operate. Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, may I ask an additional On the question, question of the gentleman? Is the honorarium limited to Will the House agree to the amendment? speeches or talks by a member of the House or, in the ~h~ SPEAKER, ~h~ chair recognizes the gentleman event it applies to those who are running for the House, from Indiana, Mr. Shane. on matters dealing with legislation, or would it be for Mr. SHANE. Mr. Speaker, this is a simple, straightfor- any of speech? ward amendment. It says that any honorarium rezeived Mr. SHANE. My interpretation would he that it would which is in excess of $100 shall be reported to the chief he for any type of speech, over and ahove expenses. In clerk. other words, Mr. Speaker, if you receive payment for your mileage or your motel room to attend a conference The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman to deliver a speech I would not consider that an hsnomr- from Philadelphia, Mr. Rappaport. ium. It would be a payment over and ahove your ex- Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, I have no problem penses. with the Shane amendment. I intend to vote for it. Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. S~eaker.I hold the high office in On the question recurring, the Order of the Sons of Italy in America. I am the Will the House agree to the amendment? Supreme Orator and I have been asked on numerous Amendment was agreed to. occasions to he the principal speaker at banquets or other occasions. It had nothing to do with my legislative du- The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman ties. I have also been recently honored by the Italian from Montgomery, Mr. McClatchy. Government and made a Knight of the Republic of Italy Mr. McCLATCHY. Mr. Speaker, may I interrogate Mr. and I am invited to speak at various Italian functions. at Shane? which time I receive not only expenses but honorariums. The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Indiana, Mi, Under the circumstances and with the explanation that. Shane, consent to interrogation? Mr. Shane has given me, I would respectfully request Mr. SHANE. Yes, Mr. Speaker. that we reconsirler the action taken by this House on The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. thc Shane amendment. Mr. MrCLATCHY. I just wanted to ask Mr. Shane, what does he mean by "honorarium"? The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Mr. SHANE. Mr. S~eaker.someone once asked Louie from Indiana, mr. Shane. Armstrong what jazz is, and~ouie'sreply was, "Man, if Mr. SHANE. Mr. Speaker, in response, I know that you have to ask, you'll never know." the gentleman, Mr. Caputo, is active and highly honored I think every politician has a pretty clear idea of what in the Italian-American community. In fact, I had the an honorarium is. But appropriate to Mr. McClatchy's pleasure of attending a dinner for a particular honor that suggestion-and I appreciate the opportunity to insert he received, I guess about a year ago, on the subject and the humorous anecdote-? think it would be good for us I commend him for this. I see nothing wrong with his to dialogue a little hit for legislative intent. accepting honorariums from these various organizations I am thinking of payments to n legislator in excess of and I think all citizens would agree that there is nothing expenses for delivering a speech, attending a conference- wrong with thii?, but I also see nothing wrong with re- 3050 LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL--HOUSE October 16, porting it as a matter of accessible record in the chief 1 The SPEAKER. The Chair recocnires the gentleman clerk's-office. from Philadelphia, Mr. Rappaport. Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, I only saw the The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman amendment about 5 minutes ago. It is my impression from Allegheny, Mr. Caputo. that the conduct that the gentleman wants reported is Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speakers I have the motion, .~bsolutelyforbidden. It was my understanding that no hecause in addition to the kind sentiments expressed by member can accept any or accept any Mr. ~hane,I am not sure yet whether it applies to a money as part of a lobbying operation. I wollld per- person who is running in opposition to a candidate for sonally consider it to be illegal and improper. That is a the legislature. curbstone oninion. admittedlv. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Montgomery, Mr. Yohn. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman

Mr. YOHN. Mr. Soeaker. I can resaond to~ that.~ and Montnur, Mr. Wagner. , ~~ the answer is, yes, that it does apply. The disclosure Mr. WAGNER. I am under the impression that the statements are required by both candidates and mem- bill does not do that. Let me pick any lobhying group bers. Ihot has a registered lobby downstairs, the assoriztion of Mr. SHANE. That seems to be a very acceptable and such and such. appropriate interpretation to me, the author of the Quite oftcn these lobbying groups are large and quite amendment. oftrn, because of the nature of their work in advocating The SPEAKER. Does the gentleman, Mr. Caputo, de- thcir interest, they have to retain counsel, and since I am sire to move to reconsider the vote? an attorney, I will say legal counsel. I do not think :!la: Mr. CAPUTO. If it applies to the candidates, Mr. 'his pri~hibitsthem from retaining legal counsel to give Speaker, I do not. that organization legal advice, because that organization The SPEAKER. The Chair thanks the eentleman. does not solely deal with the General Asscmbly in Har- risburg; they are concerned with many things-public On the question recurring, relations, the Federal Government, everything. Rut they Will the House agree to the bill as amended on third might retain me to give them legal advicr, and I df, consideration? ~;iit think the bill prohibits that. Mr. WAGNER renuested and obtained unanimous con- sent to offer the following amendment, which was read: Nor would the bill prohibit large organizations such ;!i. let us s;:y, Penn Central-I do not know if they are registwed or not, hut it is cunceivable that Penn Central has its own lobbyist here. I am sure that this legislati(,n would not prohibit Penn Central--from hiring me to givc :,hen> legal advice on Interstate Commerce Commission matters or anything. On the question, Will the House agree to the amendment? The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman The SPEAKER. Thc Chair recognizes the gentleman from Philadelphia, Rappaport. frnm Montour, Mr. Wagner. Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Spcakcr, Pcnn Central does Mr. WAGNER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. indeed have a lobbyist here, a very fine one, a5 a matter Mr. Speaker, many members here also have other voc?.. of fact; not the one they hsd traditionally about whom tions, and this would require that members who represent ercrybody writes. crganizaiions that have a full-time lobbyist here in this is a curbstone upinion: Since this is a Harrisburg file that with the chief c1~i.k to disclose thr regulated corporation, regulated by the Commonweallh. fact that they represent these organizations. or, soy, one of the utility companies, if the member Many organizations do not do business with thrr Cum- rcceLve-; cr,nsiderat:on from them, I think-I do not m.~nwealth;n the monetary sense, bnt they are concerned remember the exact figures, but it is in the bill-he with !he rejiu1ator.y awncies or the input into laws. ! a~l.eadymust have reported it. I even believe we already thin'; :nv member has a right to represent these argani go so far-although again I am at a loss to point out tli? zatinns, but I feel this employment should be disclosecl paragraph; perhaps the gentleman, Mr. Yohn. can with ihc chief clerli's office. I will use myself as an help n,e-that any member providing any kind cf cpr- example. vice::-lr?:al, accounting, or etherwise-!o someone who is I represent ;I very small mutual insurance company, rcgu!ated by thr Ccmmonwealth must reveal that in- $200,000 surplus. If they do nnt have a full-time lo!,byi?t formation. J WOII!~ not have to disclose that fact. They do not r'n I see ~r.Yohn standing up. Perhaps, Mr. Spealrm" any 1-usiness with the Cornmonwcalth. But that OT.?~-he rouid help me. zajinn does belong to an insl~rancpassociation. T? that MS. YOHN. I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, hut I was on an- i:liurance asscciaiion hxs a full-time lobbyis! in Harric- other matter and I did not hear the colloquy, so I cannot burg and if that association also retains me to give ther- respond. ntlvice on insurance laws, then I mud disclose th3t ?art ~r.RAPPAPORT. The question, for the gentleman's I think it is only fair that if a matter dealinfi with benefit, is whether someone who is retained as an at- a mulua! insnrrnce company aculd come up hrfnre ihr torney by a corporation that also has a lobbyist up here me~~hersand T am retained by such a lohhyist and 1 has to reveal that. :dv!,catr for or npainst the p;is:.ai:e of that inclivirli,ll My question mas: Is it not alrendy in the bill that if mezsur? the m-mbers should ha\.e the benefit of my a member provides ?ervices for a corporation that is employment backgrcund. regulated by the Commonwealth in some manner or does LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE

~ - business with the Common~vealtii, this must be re- interest statement on or before March 16 . . . ." What is vealed? an "economic interest statement"? Mr. YOHN. Yes; that is in the bill, if they do a sub- The SPEAKER. Before the gentleman responds, will stantial amount of business with the Commonwealth or both gentlemrn yield so the queition may be properly if they are regulated by the Commonwealth. But it would posed? seem to me that what he is trying to get at is a third category of othcr corpor;itiuns who may not do either of On the question recurring, Will the Hoilse agree to the bill as amended on third those two things but would have somebody registered consideration? here as a lobbyist. So it would seem to me that would Bill as amended was agreed to. be a third distinct caterorv.-. The same corvoration may be involved in all three categories, but it could possihly yie SPEAKER. bill has been considered on three bc involved in his category without being involved in the different daysand agreed to and is now fiilal passage. other two. 'The question is, Shall the bill pass finally? Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speuker, I thank the gentle- man for his explanation, and based on that e~pianatior, Tbe SPEAKER. Thc Chair recognizes the gentleman I intend to vote in favor ol the amendment. from l'hi?aielphia, Mr. Rappaport. Mr. RAPPAPORT. I believe the gentleman will find The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman economic interest statement" defined in the bill. I am from Delaware, Mr. Zearfoss. trying to find it right now. Mr. ZEARFOSS. I have a question for ~r.wagner on Mr. SALVATORE. On line 15, page 2, it says, "Sub- interpretation. stantial personal economic interest." The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Montour, Mr. Mr. RAPPAPORT. That is correct. Waqner, consent to interrogation? Mr. SALVATORE. And that only directs itself to ex- Mr. VJAGNER. Yes, Mr. Speaker. ceeding $3,000. Is that so? The SZ'EAKER. The gentleman may proceed. Mr. RAPFAI'ORT. I believe that definition is for sn- Mr. ZEARFOSS. Mr. Speaker, would your amendment atha' Purpose. t,b,e situation w:;cre yo,,,r bcsiness entity is a Mr. SALVATORE. All right. Then let us turn to pagc her of a lobhying ol.gani/.ation or an and you 7, sectiun 5.1, "Economic interest Statement." do nut represent the association but you do represent one Mr. RAPI'AI'OKT. Mr. Speaker, the gentleman is cor- of the members 01 the association that does have a full. rect. That is where "economic interest statemeni" is time lobbyist here? r!efined. Mr. WAGNER. It would not cover that. Mr. SALVATORE. But it just says "each member." It Mr. ZEARFOSS. Lel us assume that I represent a life does not say "candiilate." I think if we have to coniorm insurance company which is a member of the Insurance to certain restrictions, which I agree to-I am nut against Federation of Pennsylvania. The life insurance company the ethics hill-but if we have to comply with all these itseli is a very small one. It docs not havc a lobbyis;t, provisions, I think the candidates should have to comply but ii is a member of the Insurance Federation of Penn- with the same provisions. sylvania which does have a full-timc lobbyist here. M,, RAPPAPORT. M~.speaker, that is the intent 01 Would this require the disclosure of my representation (b) page g that the gentlemen to. I[ oi the life insurance company? It would have to be dis- the gentleman is concerned that he will have to file and closed in anothcr category, but under this category-lct his opponent will not, I would put the gentlemen's mind me give you another exnmple, not a rewlated industry. at ease that the intent is that not only will members-and Let us say that I represent Wise Pure Food Markets anti the word ‘,member,, also includes some our they are a member oi some retailers' organization that 1 employes-but all candidates must file this on or bcforc assume does have a full-time lobbyist hcre-Wise does March l6 of each year in with that sectio:l, not have a lobhyist here. Would I havc to disclose my and ii. they do not file it, their name does not appear on representation of Wise Markets? the ballot. Mr. WAGNER. No. Mr. SALVATORE. Mr. Speaker, again, I do not think Mr. ZEARFOSS. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. the language is clear, because on page 9, lines 22 to 24 do not snell that out. On the question recurring, When you go back to page 7, section 5.1, the economic Will the House agree to the amendment? interest statement only pertains to a member. It does not Amendment was agreed to. pertain to a candidate. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, I would assure the from Philadelphia, 1VIr. Salvatore. gentleman that as a result of this colloquy and the legis- M~,SALVATORE, M,., speaker, would M~,~~~~~~~~t lative history that we are creating, it is the intention that submit himself to brier interrogation? cll candidates who are not incumbents must file by March The SPEAKER Will the gentleman from Philadelphia, Mr. Rappnport, conscnt to interrogation'? Tlie genticman's interpretation, I believe, is a hit Mr. RAPPAPORT. Yes, MI.. Speaker. strained. I would assure the gentleman that as a result The SPEAKER. The 6;entleman may proceed. of the clear intention that I am stating right now as the Mr. SALVATORE. Mr. Speaker, not being a lawyer, prime sponsor of this bill, his o:>ponent next spring or I aln a little befuddled, but would you answer this ques. nc:tt fall, if this bill becomes law, will have to file this tion: On page 9, lines 22, 23 and 24, it says: "Candidates statement. for Smator or Representative of the General Assembly of Mr. SALVATORE. It is not in thc bill though. Mr. the Commonwealth 01 Pennsylvania shall file an economic Speaker. 3052 LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

Mr. RAPIJAPORT. Mr. Speaker, I would submll that it I CONSTITUTIONAL POiNT OF ORDER~ ~ is in the bill. I have no problem finding that and I do Mr. CAPUTO. not think that anybody else does. I submit then, Mr. Speaker, that the section on line 22, page 9, is unconstitutional. Mr. SALVATOKE. Mr. Speaker, would you show me The SPEAKER. The Chair can submit the question of where in the bill it says that my candidate has to file constitutionality of the matter in question to the mem- direct or indirect interests in any real estate which was bership of the House. sold or leased to Lhe Commonwealth or any of its agen- cies or political subdivisions or which was the suhjcct of Mr. CAPUTO. I would ask that the Chair do that, Mr. zuy condemilatiun proceedings by the Commonwealth, Speaker. any of iis agencies or political subdivisions? The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman slate again what portion of the bill in question he refers to as heing uncon- The SPEAKER. The Cha~rrecognizes the gentleman stitutional? from Westmoreland, Mr. Hutchinson. For what pllrpose Mr. CAPUTO. Yes. On pzge 9, line 22 provides that does the gentleman rise? 'Candid-tes for Senator or Hepresentative of the Gen- M~.A. K. HUTCHINSON. I rise to a question of Per- eral Assembly of the Commonwenltli of Pennsylvania sonal privilege. shall file an economic interest statement on or before The SPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. march 15 in the year in w'hich they are a candidate." A. K. HUTCHINSON. Mr. Speaker, in this bill, is NIr. Speaker, I submit that this language would not there anything in the preamble that says anything about makc it incumbent on persons who are not presently candidates? I do not think this hill can control candi- members of the legislature to file such a statement of dates. economic interest, and that the inclusion of this language ~h~ SPEAKER. m he Chair cannot recognize that as in a bill without some further language which invali. being a valid question under the color of personal privi- dates the Election Code by a repealer Is unconstitutional. lege. The SPEAKER. On the matter of constit~tionali!~, A, K, HUTCHINSON, well, privilege I melnbfrs desiring to sustain the constitutionality of ihc section in cluestion will vote "aye"; those members iysve, I would like to ask the question. desiring to hold the section to be unconstitutional wiil The SPEAKER. I will recognize you in due course. vote "nav." PL1adelphia' The Chair recognizes We gentleman from On the question, Nlr. Rappaport. Will the House sustain the constitutionality of the sec- Mr. RAIJPAPOKT. Mr. Speaker, I will yield to the tion? gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Caputo. The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. CAPUTO PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY Iand RAPFAPORT and were as follows: 'I'he SPSAKER. The Chair recognizes ihe gentleman irom Allegheny, Mr. Caputo. For what purpose does the Gillesple McClatchy Seltzer gentleman rise? Gillette McCue Shsne !\Ir. CAPUTO. I rise to a parliamentary inquiry. Gleason McLane Shelllamer The SPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. Gleeson Mebus Shuman Goodman Miller, M. E. Shupnik Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, I notice the language on Bersan Greenfield Miller, M. E.,. Jr. stfiannl line 22, page 9, which Mr. Rappaport indicates controls Bittlc Gring Milliron Smith. E. BlaclopeU Hammock Moehlrnann Smfth, I.. candidates. However, I would bring to the attention of Brandt Hnskell Morrls spencer this House that ii is the Election Code that controls Br-u Hayes. D. S. Musto Stahl Burns Hayes. S. E. Myers Stapletm candidates. I find no place in this bill which repeals that C0hM Hepford O'Brien stout section of the Election Code, and my parliamentary in- crawford Hill O'Connell Taddonio DeMedlo Hopklna O'Donnell Toll quiry is: Can we, by passing this bill, infer that qualifica- Devertv Hutchln~on.W. O'Keefe Turner tions of candidates for the legislature are eliminated or Diearlo Irvh Oliver an additional qualification is added? DiDonatO it!& Pancoast Dininnl John-. J. Parker, H. S. WGsecz Tile SPEAKER. The Chair would suggest that the Dorr Kelly. A. P. Perry Wargo gentleman pose the question to the gentleman, Mr. Rap- Doyle Kelly. J. B. Pievsky Westerberg Eckensberga Pitts Whittlesey paport. It is not the subject of a proper parliamentary Endehart Pratt Wilson inquiry. ~a%eett Rap~aport Wilt. R. W. Fee Need Wojdek Does the gentleman, Mr. Rappaport, desire to respond'! Fischer Renninger Wright ?.lr. RAPPAPORT. Yes, Mr. Speaker. Flaherty llenwick Yahner Foster. A. Hichardson Yohn Mr. Speaker, it is my belief that we can set forth re- Fmter. W. nittcr Zearfoss Fryer Lehr Romanellt zeller quirements for candidates not only in the Election Code Gallagher Levi Ross Zord but in this act as well. The point raised by Mr. Caputo Gallen Lincoln Ryan Zwikl is not without merit, hut 1 believe that since illis refers Geesey ixandertno Schmitt George Manmiller Schweder lo elhics and to members generally, it can also refer to Giamrnarm McCall S"lrl* candidates in this limited area. Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, may I have a ruling Sram the Chair on whether or not the language of this bill re- A braham Dreibelbb Lynch Rhodes peals the Election Code or changes thc qualifications for Anderson. J. E Fisher MeGinnis Ruggiero Bellominl Gar% Menhorn Saloorn candidates? Geisler Wscevlch Salvatore Green Mrlronic schemer The SPEAKER. The Chair is unable to give the gentle- Grieco Mullen, M. P. Taylor man a ruling on the question raised. Halve- Novsk Thomas 1975. LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE 3053

Clmlni Hamilton. J. H. Nose hello The SPEAKER. That is not a parliamentary inquiry Cole Hassr Perri UstynosM Cowell Hutehlnson. A. Petrarea Weldner to which the Chair desires to respond. Cumberland Katz Polite Whelen Mr. SALVATORE. Okay. Davis. D. M. KIrtler hendrrgast Wllf W. Ur. Dletz Kolter Psles Worrilow Well, I just think, Mr. Speaker, that the language at ~ombmWBU Kowalyshsn this point is not clear. Now maybe it is their intent but it does not say that. NOT VOTING-11 The SPEAKER. Does the gentleman desire to offer an amendment? Mr. SALVATORE. Yes. Mr. Sneaker.. if you- will hold MeGraw Rieger the bill. I will have an amendment prepared to say "each The majority required by the constitution having voted member or candidate", if you will wait until we prepared in the aff~rmative,the question was determined in the an amendment. affirmative and the constitutionality of the section was The SPEAKER. The Chair will he happy to hold the sustained. bill over until this afternoon on final passage. For what purpose does the gentleman from Pbiladel- On the question recurring, phia, Mr. Rappaport, rise? Shall the bill pass finally? Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, I would not object to The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentlemall holding the bill over until this afternoon. I personally from Philadelphia, Mr. Salvatore. feel the language is crystal clear. I have no problems Mr. SALVATORE. Mr. Speaker, since it has been with it whatsoever as meaning what M~.yohn and I ruled constitutional, I would like to direct my question agree it means, then to Mr. Yohn because I did not get the answers When courts go to interpret bills, they look at the that 1 am seeking from Mr. Rappaport. Maybe Mr. Yohn journal, and the legislative journal is very can give me the answers. clear as to what the two main sponsors of the bill think The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Montgomery, it means. But if it will make the gentleman happy and Mr. Yohn, consent to interrogation? if be can get his amendment prepared by this afternoon, Mr. YOHN. Yes, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER. The gentlemar: may proceed. I shall not object to the bill going over until this after- Mr. SALVATORE. VJe have determined that this is noon. constitutional, lines 2'2 to 25 on page 9. Is that so? HOUSE BILL No. 1590 PASSED Mr. YOHN The House has determined that, yes. OVER TEMPORARILY Mr. SALVATORE. Now if we go back to .-waze 7, . line 1 on mrough page 7, we ask the member to do many, The SPEAKER. This bill will be temporarily passed many things, do we not? over. Mr. YOHN. That is correct. The Chair would suggest to the gentleman, Mr. S:il- Mr. SALVATORE. But we do not ask the candidate vatore, tbat he immediately communicate with the Leg- to do anything but just file a substantial personal eco- islative Reference Bureau to get an amendment prepared. nomic interest statement. Is that right? Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, might I ask that any Mr. YOHN. No; that is not correct. other amendments he taken at this time and that this Mr. SALVATORE. All right. Then where in this bill afternoon we just consider the Salvatore amendments? does it spell out what a candidate has to do? The SPEAKER. There are no other amendments. Mr. YOHN. On page 9, line 22, it states: "Candidates for Senator or Representative of the General Assembly The Chair recognizes the lady from Montgomery, Mrs. of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania shall file an eco- Fawcett. For what purpose does the lady rise? nornic interest statement on or before March 15 in the Mrs. FAWCETT. Mr. Speaker, may I interrogate Mr. year in which they are a candidate!' Rappaport on page 7, section 5? Mr. SALVATORE. All right, but on page 7, Mr. Spealr- The SPEAKER. Mrs. Fawcett, can you defer your interest statement? interrogation until this afternoon? We are temporarily Mr. YOHN. That economic interest statement would putting the bill over at this time. be the same economic interest statement tbat is required Mrs. FAWCETT. Okay. on page 7 of members of the House. The SPEAKER. The Chair thanks the lady.

Mr. SALVATORE. All rieht.-, but on--A Daee - 7.. Mr. S~eak- er, it says "each member." It does not say each member or candidate. It just says "each member." NAVAJO INDIAN GROUP WELCOMED Mr. YOHN. That is correct as far as the language is The SPEAKER, I want to introduce some guests to concerned. What I am saying is that I understand it to be the members of the House. the intent of Mr. Rappaport who drafted the bill-it is certainly my intent-and I think it is the intent of the YOU know, we have one in-house genuine blood In- members of the legislature, and I think that ~r.R~~~~- dian here. Of course, we have a lot of Indinns in the port and I feel that it is clearly expressed in the bill that House but only one in-house genuine blood ~ndianwho it does auulv to candidates. and we so state. you all know, Reid Bennett. Mr. SALJATORE. No further questions. Reid has some guests here today, five genuine Navajo Mr. Speaker, I would appeal to you, is it the intint Indian girls ranging in age from 6 to 14, and I wouid like that that language should also read "each member or to introduce them to you now. They are Sherry Nephew. candidate"? Would it be your interpretation that they Shirley Tosie, Linda Lu Tosie, Beatrice Begay and Julie would fall into the same category? I Begay. Let us welcome these young ladies. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16.

- I'RRliENTATION An Aci prov:dlng lor the capllal budget for the fiscal year 1:1?5-76. The SPEAKER. I understand that Julie Begay would On the question, like to make a presentation. JULIE BEGAY. Yhateh quasina (hello to everyone). Will the House agree to the hill on lhird consideration? We are very happy to be here today. To us, it is a Bill was agreed to. great honor. Our family on the Navajo reservalicc The SPEAKER. This hill has been considered on thre-: will he very proud of us. We will remember this day diffrrcnt Cays and agreed to and is now on linal passage. for the rest of our lives. The question is, Shall thc bill pas? finally? We want to thank you all and our friend, Reid Bennett, for making this all possible, and our foster family. 'Tile Chair recognizes the minority whip. Thank you. Hagona (good-bye). Mr. RYAN. Mr. Spezker, several of onr members have The SPEAKER. This young lady is presenting this askcd Mr. Seltzer to explain briefly this bill. Navajo handmade rug to the Speaker in appreciation of ~h,SPEAKER. ~h~ clIair recognizes gclllleman the invitation to be present today. from Lebanon, A4r. Seltzer. There are some people who have accompanied these Mr. SELTZEIL. Mr. Speaker, Senate bill No. 1007 is lovely young ladies here. I would like to intrnduce them: an authorization the executive branch of government Mr. Richard Chrastina; Pastor Jim Irwin, who is tllc t,j incur additional debt in the Commollwcalth the pastor r,f thc Sharpsville Church of the Nazarene in amount of $558 million, As you can see the the Mercer County; Rick Chrastina; Mrs. Reid Bennett an,^: amouni cu,,crs highway projects, ~:lj~million; public their daughter Cindy and their son Iteid. iniprovement projects under the Department of Pr~purly The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Mercer, n,Ir and Supplies or the new Department of General Services, Bennett. $168 nliliiijn; and transporlation assistance projects, $40 Mr. BENNETT. Mr. Speaker, what you have scen here today is 3nolhcr e>:prcsiion, I t~rzlieve, of people Tile proJects have already been approved by the Cen- helping other people. era1 Assembly in years past. They are in some form ul yhC rive young la<;cs that you see helore you arc ~nnstruc1?0n. They may he 90 percent complctrd or 10 indeed full-blor:ded Navaju Indian ladips. They PeI'Ccnt completed. And rather than borrow all the here under the auspiecs oi ihc Church ci the ~:irarenc,money that is needed for every projccl when it is a,,- These young ladies come from the reser12ation in Anzon:, thorizeci by the General Assembly, we hwc, over the to live and Lie a part "f a family. This ~ppo~~~nityis Year% waited until an appropriate tiine to borruw that given to them and they must carn this opporlunity, amount of money to complete or to fulfill the needs cf They must return to the reservation for 2 months out the project as they are being completed. of that year so that they will not forget where thi.y AS a millter of information for the members uf tlic came from. iiousc, the authorized debt that we can incur in Pcno- I have been advised by Pastor Jim Irwin that if thcri. ~~lvaniaby the end of this fiscal year, under the consli- is any orgs,nizat;on that you know of that be in- tution, will be something over $7.5 billion. Will1 this terested j.. sponsorin!: this kind of rtiaiion-,hip, you a~thmrizstion,it will put us up to slightly ovcr $4 billion, invited to wriie to Pastcr Jiin Irwin, Sharpsvilie church So are ai ahout 53.6 percrnt ol* our authorized hor- of ihr Xaz;lrenu, Sliarpsrille. Pennsylvania 16150. rowing in Pennsylvania, which is ccrlainly a reasonable anlriunt of money in comparison to what our authorizcci I think again it is an crpression uf love that we can debt is. I woul(i as!< thc members to support this show to our fellowmen. legislation. I want to thank the Speaker for his ctiurlesy an:. a!1 of the members of the IJouse for their courtesy and tineir '"he SPEC.KEI2. The Chair recognizes the gentleman accep:ance of thesc fine young ladies. I agoin thank you, ?ram Philadelphia, Mr. Mrojdak. The SPEAKER. Thank you, Reid; and thank yo,. Mr. WO.IDAK. Mr. Speaker, I would also ask for an girls. affirmalive vote on this matter. On ihe question recurring, RUG TO DE PRESENTED TO Shall the bill pass finally? COMMONWEALTH Agrceai~leto the provision of the constitution, the The SPEAKER. Reid Bennett, will you inquire of and nays were taken and were as follows: those young iadies if it is agreeable with thcm for illc YEAS-181 to present this rug to the Commonwealth so that wc could have it permanently housed here? Would that be Abraham Giammerco AlcClatchy Sdrica agrrefablr with them? Anderson, J. H. Gillespie MeCue Seltzer Arthurs Gillette McIntyre Shane The Chair thanks the young ladies. M7e v~ilii1:Ipro- Barber Gleason McLane Shelhamer Bell~rnini Gleeson Mebus Shelton priately prescnt it to ihc Commonwealth. Bennett Goodman Menhorn Shurnan Beren Green MI1M. E. Shupnlk Berlin Greenfield Miller. M. E..Jr. Slrianni Berson Grleco Miliiron Smith. E. Blackwell Gring Mizcevich Smith. L. Bonetto Halverson hloehlmann Spencer Bradley IIamilton. J. H. Morris Stahl Agreeable to order, Brandt Hasay Mullen. M. P. Stapleton Brunner Haskell Musto Stout The IIousc proceeded to third consideration of Senate Burns Hayes. D. S. Myers Taddonlo hill No. 1007, printer's No. 1184, entitled: Cessar Hayes, S. E. NOV* Taylor

3056 LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

The question is, shall the hill pass finally? The Chair recognizes the majority leader. Mr. IRVIS. Would you put the House at ease for a Agreeable to the provision of the Constitution, the yeas minute.! and nays will now he taken. The SPEAKER. The House will be at ease. YEAS-187

Abraham George McCue sehmltt Anderson. J. H. Giammarm McGinnis Schweder ETHICS COMMITTEE MEETING AM- Gillespie MeIntyre Sdllca Barber Gillette MeLane Seltzer The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Bellomtni Cileasan Mebus Shane from Philadelphia, Mr. Rappaport. Bennett Gleeson Menhorn Shelhamer Brren Goodman Miller, M. E. Shelton Mr. RAPPAPORT. There will be n meeting of thc Berlin Green Miller. M. E.. Jr. shuman Ethics Committee, a very brief meeting, in the Appro- Berson Greenfield Milllron Shupnlk priations Committee meeting room on this flour immedi- Blackwell Grieco Miseevluh Sirianni Bonetto Grlng Moehlmann Smlth. E. ately upon the call of the luncheon recess. Bradley Hal~erson Morris Smith. L. The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman, Mr. Wilt, with- Brandt Hamilton, J. H. Mrkonic Spencer Brunner Hammock Mullen. M. P. stah1 draw his amendment until after lunch? Burns HasBell Must0 Stapleton Mr. W. W. WILT. Yes, Mr. Speaker. Caputo Hayes, D. S. Myers Stout Cesrar Hayes. S. E. Novak Taddonio The SPEAKER. The Chair thanks the gentleman. Cimini Hepford Noye Taylor Cohen Hill O'Brien Thomas Cole Hopkins O'Connell Toll Cowell Hutchinson. A. O'Dannell Reno HOUSING SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING Crawford Hutchlnson. W. O'Keeie Turner Cumberland Ims Oliver Uatynoski The SPEAKER. The Chair reoognizcs the gentleman Davis, D. M. Itkin Paneoert V- from Allegheny, Mr. Romanelli. DeMedio Johnson. J. Parker. H. S. Vroon Deverter Katr Perri Wmer Mr. ROMANELLI. The members of the Business and Dicario Kelly. A. P. Perry W-aer Commerce Committee's Subcomn~ittee on Hi~using will Dietz Kelly, J. B. Petrarca Wsrgo DiNnni Kerlllck Polite Weidner meet immediately upon the call of the recess. Proceed Dombrowskl Kistler matt Westerberg to room 115A, please. Dorr Kllngaman Prendergazt Whelan Doyle Knepper Pyles Whittlesey Dreibelbll Kolter Rappaport Wilson Eckensberger Kowalyshyn Reed Wllt, R. W. RESOLUTION TO BE INTRODUCED Englehart Kusse Renninger Wilt. W. W. Fawcett LaMarca Renwick Woj dak Fee Laudadlo Rhodes Worrflow The SPEAKER. Does the lady from Montgomery, Mrs. Fischer Laughlin Richardson Wright Fawcett, desire to be recognized for any purpose? Do Fisher Lederer Rleger Yahner you have a resolution or something? Flaherty Lehr Ritter Yohn Foster, A. Lev1 Romanelll Zeerim Mrs. FAWCETT. Yes, I do have a resolution. Foster. W. Lincoln ROSS &Uer The SPEAKER. Is that a privileged resolution'! Ryer Lynch Rugglero Zord Gallagher ~anderlno Ryan Zvlll Mrs. FAWCETT. Yes. Gallen Manmiller Saloom Mr. Speaker, I am submitting today a resolution which GaraQ McCall Salvatore Flnunan, Geese7 McClatchy Scheaffer speeerwould ask the Joint State Government Commission to Gelsler study the problems that esist in the case uf an unborn NAYS-2 child because of the use of drugs such as alcohol, the usual drugs. Has89 Pitts If I may, I will read from the resolution so that the NOT VOTING-13 members will have an understanding of what the reso- lution intends. Bittle Letterman Mullen Taroun Butera McGraw Pievsky VaUeentl The SPEAKER. The Chair woilld suggest to the lady Davies Milanovich sullivan Wlah. T. P. that she submit the resolution for introduction and that DiDonBtO the resolution not be read at this time. The majority required by the Constitution having voted Mrs. FAWCETT. All right. Thank you. in the affirmative, the question was determined in the affirmative. Ordered, That the clerk present the same to the Senate ANNOUNCEMENT for concurrence. The SPEAKER. The Chair rccugnizes the gentleman from Westmoreland, Mr. Schmitt. HOUSE BILL No. 526 PASSED OVER Mr. SCRMITT. Mr. Speaker, I would like to make TEMPORARILY an announcement especially of interest to those whu have The SPEAKER, The Chair recognizes the majority signed or have sponsored hearing aid bills this year. leader. We are hlending together the two major hearing aid bills for the purpose of getting it introduced today so Mr. IRVIS. nqr. Speaker, the chairman of the -4ppra- ,hat it will he prepared in print and we hold pi,blic priations Committee said we can take this bill up after hearings on it during the period of recess, the lunch hreak. I would like to announce to all those who have been The SPEAKER. The bill will be temporarily passed on the two previous hills that if they care to sponsor over. this compcndiirm or blended bil!, thcy may do so by noti- Does the gentleman, Mr. Wilt, have his amendment to fying my office. House bill No. 293 on page 2? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 1975. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE 3057

INTERROGATION Any member of the House who would like to be a part of that delegation to press this cause wlth the Mr. NOYE requested and obtained unanimous consent G~~~~~~~ on ~~~~~b~~ ,,lease my office. to interrogate Mr. IRVlS. Mr. NOYE. Mr. Speaker, we have voted on House hill No. 1568, House hill No. 1569, and you were about to RULES COMMITTEE MEETING call up I-liiuse hill No. 526. None of these bills appeared The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the majority on the voting schedule for today. I do not mind them leader. heing called up if I know what we are voting on. Now Mr. IRVIS. Mr. Speaker, there will be a Rules Cam- do you have any hills that you plan to call UP for a mittee meeting in my office immediately upon the dec- vole this afternoon that were not put on the voting laration of the recess. schedule for today? I ask for the declaration of a recess, Mr. Speaker, until Mr. IRVIS. Let me look, Mr. Noye, and see if I can 2 p.m. answer~ ~ -- that.~--~~~. Senate bill No. 536, on page 8, which was not on the DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS voiing schedule for today is to be called up; House bill No. 12. on .nave 3, which was not on the voting schedule Mr. IRVIS. I would now announce a Democratic cau- for today is to he called up; and House bill &. 526, cn cus at 1:15. There will be important questions to he page 3, which was not on the voting schedule for today discussed at that caucus. I would hope that you will is to be called up. attend. And as long as I am at the microphone, House bill No. 749, u-hich is on the voting schedule today was put REPUBLICAN CAUCUS there in error and is to remain on the calendar. ~h~~~ is also a possibility that House bill N~,1302, l-.he SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman which is not 011 the voting schedule for today, may, if from Luzerne, Mr. O'Connell. decided by both caucuses, be called up. That is one of Mr. O'CONNELL. Mr. Speakcr, for the Republican the reasons for our asking for a caucus. members, we would like to have a caucus right now. While the majority leader is at the micropllone-~ WC do not think it is going to take very long. Then we sure the members recognize the problems u.e have in will proceed to lunch. We would like to meet in the trying to schedule this Ilouse-these changes which "aL'cUS Thank you. were made mere not made hu the maiorits" - leader nor by any other leader. They were made at the request of the members who, for thcir own particular and peculiar I HOUSE ISILL SIGNED BY SPEAKER reasons, waited until the last day to issue these requests. 1 V7e try to accommodate them. Bill numbered and entitled as follows having been pre- Does the gentleman hove any further questions? pared for presentation to the Governor and the same Mr. NOYE. No, Mr. Speaker. being correct, the title was read as follows: I thank the gentleman very much for his courtesy. I HOUSE BILL No. 373 would just hope that in the future if we are going to An Act amending "The Local Tax Enabling Act," ap- go by a voting schedule-which is fine; it is a great help proved December 31, 1965 (P. L. 1257, No. 511), provld- -if members request that hills be called up and we are iug for notice to employes prior to filing a notice and going to break for lunch or for caucus or for some other demand for collection of delinquent taxes with employers. reason, that those hills be held until after that time so whereupon, we have time to prepare for them. The SPEAKER, in the presence of the House, signed Mr. IRVIS. Amen. the same. The SPEAKER. Does the majority leader have an announcement concerning a recess and caucus? Mr. IRVIS. I think there are some other announcc- HOUSE BILLS 1NTROI)UCED AND REFERRED me~ltsfirst, Mr. Speaker. / By Messrs. BBANDT, BEREN, MILLIRON, MOEHLMANN and ARTHURS HOUSE BILL No. 1864 ANNOIJNCEMENTS An Act amending "The Vehicle Code," approved April 29, 1959 (P. L. 58, No. 321, further providing for certain MEETING WITH GOVERNOR motor bicycles. The SPEAKER. The Chair reccgni~esthe gentleman 1 Referred to Committee on Transportation. from Allegheny, Mr. Rhndes. By Messrs. FISHER, GRIECO, CIMINI, WEIDNER Mr. RHODES. Mr. Speaker, this will be brief. For and PRATT HOUSE BILL No. 1865 the benefit of the members, we were trying to set up a ,:li.eting of a delegation from the H~~~~ with the G~~-An Act amending the act of December 22, 1959 (P. L. ernor discuss House N~.154, the per diem 1978, No. 728), referred to as the State Harness Racing to Law, further providing for the employment of public increase for nursing homes. .I number of the members employes. of the EJousc have asked to meet with the Gor~crnor. Thq the (:o.,ernar bc on November 19, Referred to Committee On Labor Relations. at 10 o'clock to discuss the incrcase for nursing home B~ M~~~~~,FISHER, CAPUTO, ZORD, assistance, mcdical assistance. This was just told to me CUMBERI~ANDand CESSAR a few minutes ago. HOUSE BILL No. 1.866 LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

An Act amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of Referred to Committee on Law and Justice. the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes prohibiting the sale of law enforcement agency badges to persons with- BY Messrs. XEED, ZORD, DAVIS 2nd PRATT out proper identification. HOUSE BILL No. 1874 Referred to Comr.ittee on Law and Justice. An Act amending the act of June 18, 1974 (P. L. 359, No. 120), referred to as the Municipal Police Education By Messrs. D. S. HAYES, DOMBROWSKI, and Training Law; further providing for training for BELLOMINI and HOPKINS HOUSE BILL NO. 1867 police officers. An Act requiring approval by referendum in certain Referred to Committee on Law and Justice. municipalities to permit construction of energy parks by public utilities. By Mr. REED HOUSE BILL No. 1875 An Act prohibiting smoking in certain places and pro- Referred to Committee on Mines and Energy Manage- viding penalties, ment. Referred to Committee on Health and Welfare. By Messrs. BERSON and BEREN HOUSE BILL No. 1868 SENATE MESSAGE An Act amending the "Pennsylvania Election Code," BILLS FOR CONCURRENCE approved June 3, 1937 (P. L. 1333, No. 320). further de- fining certain terms used in thls act. The clerk of the Senzle, bein:: introduced, presented Referred to Committee on Judiciary. for concurrence bills numbered and entitled as follows: By Rlessrs. ECKENSBERGER, REED, DOYLE, ZORD, SENATE lZ7 DAVIS, PRATT, STAPLETON, GARZIA, TAYLOR, An Act amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of ZELLER, RITTER, ERANDT, ZWIKL, McCALL, the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, providing for BARBER, LEHR, POLITE, CIMINI, DiCARLO violation of rules and regulations regarding conduct on Commonwealth property. and SHELHAMER HOUSE BILL No, An Act relating to the prevention of crime; creating a Referred to Committee on Law and Justice. temporary Governor's Council on Crime Prevention to SENATE BILL NO. 587 develop a program therefor and prescribing its powers and duties; and making an appropriation. An Act amending Title 18 (Crimes and OEIenses) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, changing reason- Referred to Committee on Judiciary. able to unreasonable. By Messrs. IRVIS, PARKER, BENNETT, MISCEVICH, Referred to Committee on Judiciary. ICOLTER, MRKONIC, BRADLEY, SPENCER, SENATE BILL No. 589 Mrs. FAWCETT, Mcssrs. CESSAR, MEBUS, SCHEAFFER, CAPUTO, HAMMOCK, VROON, An Act amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, further provid- ZEARFOSS, PETRAItCA, BEREN, KNEPPER, ing for written statements in the dismissal of de minimis BURNS, ERUNNER, LINCOLN, COHEN, OLIVER, infractions, VALICENTI, Mrs. CRAWFORD, Messrs. TADDONIO. WHELAN and PRATT Referred to Committee on Judiciary. HOUSE BILL No. 18701 SENATE BILL No. 751 An Act providing for the protection of Pennsylvania A, ~ctauthorizing certain local taxing authorities to corporations, shareholders, employees and the public. *** provide for tax exemption for certain deteriorated indus- assets,located in this Commonwealth to make a fu!l and trial commercial and other business property; providing fair d~sclosureto offerees of all matfrlal lnformatlon In for zn exemption schedule and establishing standards regard to takeover offers. and qualifications. Referred to Committee on Business and Commerce. I Referred to Committee on Finance By Messrs. REED, ECKENSBERGER, ZORD, DAVIS SENATE BILL NO, 997 and PRATT HOUSE BILL No. 1871 An Act amending the act of July 28, 1953 (P. L. 723, An Act amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of No. 230), entitled, as amended, "Second Class County the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, changing sen- Codc," further providing for physical examinations of tences for certain persons convicted of felonies and mis- applicants for civil service positions. demeanors. Referred to Ccmmiltee on Lucal Government. Referred to Committee on Judiciary. SENATE BILL No. 1005 By hlessrs. REED, ZORD and DAVIS No' 1872 A Supplement to the act of (No. ), entitled .'Capital Budget .Act for Fiscal Year 1975-76, An Act prohibiting the alteration of a television set to Public Improvement Pro~ect Itemization Supplement- receive signals from cable television facilities by certain Department of, General Services," itemizing public im- persons. provement prolects of the Department of Property and Supplies together with their estimated financial cost, Referred to Committee on Law and Justice. authorizing the incurring of debt for the projects without approval of the electors to complete projects in the By T~lessrs.REED, ZORD, DAVIS and PXATT category of public improvcmcnts by acquisition of orig- HOUSE BILL No. 1873 inal furniture and equipment to he acquired by the De- partment of General Services, stating thc estimated use- An Act amending Tit!e 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of ful life of such projects and making an appropriation. the Pennsylvan~aConsol~dated Statutes, further providing for the theft of cable television services. Referred to Committee on Apprnpriations. 1975. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE 3059

FIBUSE RESOLUTION INTRODUCED Cessar Hayes, D. S. Moehlmann Thomas Cimlnl Hayes. S. E. NoYe Turner AND REFERRED Crawford Hill O~Comell 1:stynoskl Cumberland Hopklns Pancoast Wagner By Messcs. REED. GLEASON, MANMILLER, Devertel. Hutchinson, W. Parker, H. S. Wrstcrberg IIEPFORD, PJOYE, COI,E, BRADLEY and KISTLER Katz Pemi w!iittlesey Xelly, J. B. Polite wllson RESOLUTION No. 156 Dorr Kistler Renningcr Wilt. R. W. Fawcett Knepper ROSS Wllt. W. W. The House of Representatives petition the Secretary Fischel Kusse Ryan womilow :ii the United States Eepartment of 34th Education pisher L-hr Saloom Wright and Vi'elfare to Favorably consider the establishment of a A. Levi Salvatore Yohn Title TI office in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, to afford Foster. W. ~ynch Schraffer Zed- residents of that region of the Commonwealth the ser- Gallen Manmlllel Sciriea zord vices of such an office. Gecser R~ferr~dto Committee on Rules. I NAYS-100 4braham Garrla

RECESS Arthun Geisler ~ ~~ ~~~ BeUombl George MiSCeviCh The SPEAKER. The Chair now declares the House in Bennett Giammareo ~--~-~.Morris Berlb Gillecple Mrkonic Shme recess until 2 p.m. Berson Gillene Muilcn, M. P. Shelhamer Ronetto Gleeson lllllllC" Shelton Brsdlel Goodman Must0 Shuman AFTER RECESS Erunnez Green Myem Shupml; Caputo Greenfield Novak Stapleton The lime of recess having expired, the House was called Cohen Hutchinson. O'Brlen stout to order. Cole INis O'Donnell Taylor coweu Itkin O'Keefe Tayoun Davis. D.X. Johnson. J. Ohrer Toll DeMedlo Kelly, A. P. Perry houo TII% SPEAKER (Herbert Finernan) Dlcarlo Kemick Pr.trarca IN THE CHAIR UlDanato Kolter Pievsk" Dambmwskl Kowalyshm Pram Wargo Doyle Lahlarca Prendrrgast Wojdsk Drelbelbb Laudadlo Rappaport Ya~ler CALENDAR Eckensberge. I~aughlin Reed ZeUer Snglehart Ledel-r Renunck Zwilil Fee Letterman Rhodes Flaherty Lmeoln Richardeon Fineman. Fryer MeCaU R~tter S~eaiter Gallagher MeLane Agreeable to order, The House ~roceededto third consideration of Senate I NOT VOTING-25 hill No. 668, printers' No. 1241, entitled: Barber Ilepford Mllanovich su1Iivan Blackwell Klingaman Pita Valieenti An Act amending the act of April 14, 1949 (P.L. 443, B,itera Manderino Psiics Vrmn No. 73), entitled "An act providing for the publlcat~on~f o,,i,, McClatehy Rieger Walsh, T. P. ordinances and resolutions of a legislative character of in- c1eason McGrsw Sirisnni webhm cornorated towns." further wermitting advertisement of irammoek McIntvre S~encer Wbelan th; title and sulnmarization in lieu of the entire text of I Hasay any proposed ordinance. I So the question was determined in the negative and the On the question, 1 motion was not agreed to. Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration? On the question recurring, RTOTION TO RECOMMIT SENATE BILL No. 668 Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration? Bill was agreed to. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Luzerne, Mr. O'Connell. The SPEAKER. This bill has been considered on three Mr. O'CONNELL. Mr. Speaker, I would like to move different days and agreed to and is now on final passage. that Senate bill No. 668 be recommitted to the Committee The question is, Shall the bill pass finally? on Rules. The SPEAKER. There is a motion, made by the gen- The Chair recognizes the minority whip. tleman, Mr. O'Connell, that Senate bill No. 668 be recorn- Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could inter- mitted to the Committee on Rules. rogate someone on this bill? Mr. Fryer? The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Berks, Mr. The Chair recognizes the majority leader. Fryer, consent to interrogation? Mr. IRVIS. Mr. Speaker, I oppose the motion. Mr. FRYER. I will, Mr. Speaker. On the question. The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. Will the Huuse agree to the motion? Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, I did not expect these bills to come up today so I am not completely prepared for it. The yeas and n-ys were required by Mcsirs. O'CON- But it is my recollection-and I look to you as somewhat NELL and IRVIS and were as fallows: the expert in this area of tocal government-that in the not too distant past we passed through this House and YEAS-77 Ithrough the Senate similar legislation which the Governor Andenon. J. H. Grleco :~rCus Seltzer vetoed. Is that accurate? Bcren Grin% ~M-IcG~MIS smith. E. Mr. FRYER. Yes, we passed legislation dealing with iillll? H.?~EISU~I Mi-t)US Sm'th. L. cities of the third class. That bill was vetoed by the Rr;?ndt TTlm!itm. J. H. M!ller. M. E. Stshl . . Burm ?Ias!'eII Millcr, M. E.. Jr. heddonio Governor. LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE October 16,

--- Mr. RYAN. Do you happen to recall-and I say to you public to know is a paramount right. Now these hills that I do not recall-why the Governor vetoed that hill? would abbreviate that full description that is now re- Mr. FRYER. For the same reasons, Mr. Speaker, as quired under the law. The problem I have and I think given last year, basically, on the public's right to know many others have is this: If it is a significant savings and several other reasons. to a local municipality, then perhaps these bills should Mr. RYAN. All right. pass; if it is an insignificant amount, then we should go Now on this bill, is there a fiscal note attached as it to the trouble of printing the full text of the proposed will affect the local municipalities? Did local government ordinance and pay that money. get fiscal notes on these bills? I have a further question of Mr. Fryer, if I might ask it. Mr. FRYER. Mr. Speaker, the result of this legislation, The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. if passed, would he a substantial savings for local gov- Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, under these hills, are the ernment. townships now required to advertise twice rather than Mr. RYAN. I understand that, but is there a fiscal note once? for these bills? Mr. FRYER. Mr. Speaker, in townships of the first Mr. FRYER. Mr. Speaker, I realize that there is a need class, they could, yes, because presently they advertise for a fiscal note when it calls for additional expenditures. after passage of the act. However, the hills call for ad- But to repeat, this package of bills, if it is passed, will vertising prior to passage and then, if there is a substan- result in a substantial savings to local governments. tial change, it would mean that there wnuld be a s11n1- mary of the act. PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, these hills, then, do more Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, a parliamentary inquiry. than just permit the local townships to reduce the size The SPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. of their ad by summarizing the ordinance, is that not MT. RYAN. would the speaker advise me if the rules correct? They require double advertisement in some do not provide that a fiscal note is necessary when there cases? is any fiscal impact on a local municipality by reason of Mr. FRYER. What we are addressing ourselves to, Mr. the passage of a given hill or the introduction of a bill, Speaker, is that in the Borough Code, townships of the should it pass, regardless of whether it is an anticipated first class advertise after the passage of ordinances. This saving or expenditure? makes it uniform with the other classes of local govern- The SPEAKER. The rule in question is rule 19 (a), ment. subparagraph (2): "No amendment to a bill- Are we ~r.RYAN. So they would advertise before and again dealing with an amendment or the bill itself? they would be required to advertise after? Mr. RYAN. This is the hill itself, Mr. Speaker. Mr. FRYER. In summary form, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER. "No hill, except a General Appropria- M~.RYAN. some what? tion bill or any amendments thereto, which may require M,, FRYER. In summary form, which, once again, con- an expenditure of Commonwealth funds or funds of any stitutes a savings to the taxpayer. political subdivision or which may entail a loss of reve- M,. RYAN. sothere would be a double advertisement nues shall be reported from committee until the com- in summarv form comnared to a advertisement in mittee chairman has requested a fiscal note from the lull form, if you will? Appropriations Committee, and the fiscal note has been FRYER, Only if there is any change, attached thereto which shall be provided by the Appro- ~l~,,,the fact remains that it be in summary form priations Committee and no bill so reported shall be which a savings, given second consideration reading on the calendar until RYAN, What is a 'asubstantial change,,? that de. it has first been referred to the Appropriations Commit- fined? tee." Mr. FRYER. Mr. Speaker, the gentleman is an attor- So the rule would address itself to the expenditure of ney; he probably could tell us, moneys or the loss of revenues, and in this instance it does not fit either category. Mr. RYAN. I am sure that many people would disagree with my definition. "Substantial" is a discretionary thing; Mr. RYAN. Well, it deals with advertisements that . . need to be placed by local municipalities in connection ~t 1s subjective; it is capable of many interpretations. Mr. FRYER. Mr. Speaker, the committee addressed with ordinances, and as far as I am concerned, that is an , ~tselfto that problem. expenditure of money. Is it not? As it is with many other problems here in the state legislature, we came up with what we ~h~ SPEAKER. ~h~ chair recognizes the lady from thought was the best solution. Now we are aware that it Allegheny, Mrs. Kernick. can easily become a legal problem because it varies from KERNICK, I think we can cease on this attorney to attorney, but we felt that it was the best issue. If we vote to suspend the rules, that would solve decision' the whole problem. Bear in mind, Mr. Speaker, that in most cases-I would say in 95 or 98 percent of the cases-there i? no change Mr. RYAN. Well, that would not solve my problem, in the ordinance as it is proposed, Mr. Speaker. If I may address some remarks- Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, is there another change as a The SPEAKER. In direct response to the gentleman's result of bills as to the date of advertising? inquiry, I do not believe that this requires a fiscal note. these Mr. RYAN. I am not going to go through the exercise M'. FRYER. Not than 60 Or less than of appealing the Chair's ruling. I think the Chair is prior passage. wrong, however. It is an expenditure of money. Mr. RYAN. It is my understanding that under exist- Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, what bothers some of ing law, it is a 3-day limit. Do you lmow if that is cor- our members. Many of us agree that the right of the rect, it must he advertised 3 days before? LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE

Mr. FRYER. I helicve so. It does not state it here in to have to be prepared several weeks in advance of the the hill. time they normally would be prepared. Mr. RYAN. But under this hill it requires advertising 7 I tell you honestly right now, I still do not know days hefore, is that correct? whether I am going to vote "yes" or "no." Mr. FRYER. That is correct. I think the hill should be held over. I know that the Mr. RYAN. No\.? I am wnndering if you will agree or last motion was a motion to recommit, and the motion to disagree with this, so it is put in the nature of a question: recommit was defeated. Many of the townships, boroughs, perhaps cities affected Mr. Speaker, would a motion to lay on the table be in by this legislation are served primarily by weekly news- order? papers. Would you agree that probably the bulk of the The SPEAKER. The motion would he in order. second class and perhaps first class townships and bor- MOTION TO TABLE SENATE BILL No. 668 oughs arc served by and advertise in weekly newspapers? Mr. FRYER. Yes. Mr. Sneaker. Mr. RYAN. I would so move, Mr. Speaker, to table Mr. RYAN. If there is 'a requirement that this ad he the bill. placed 7 days before their meeting, really what you are To save time, I would ask that this motion-and I will saying is that the supervisors would have to put the ad be satisfied with the count-apply to the whole package together, or their township manager would have to put of bills, the five or six bills. the ad together, and get it over to the weekly paper maybe 2 weeks before the actual meeting. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the majority Mr. FRYER. Mr. Speaker, the provision of the bill leader. calls for-and I will read it-". . . not more than sixty Mr. IRVIS. Mr. Speaker, I would ask for a negative davs nor less than seven days prior to passage." So wr vote on the motion. think that hy granting 60 days, there ample time to h The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman reach a weekly newspaper. from Lebanon, Mr. Seltzer. Mr. RYAN. I have no problfm with the fio-day Part: M~.SELTZER. M~.speaker, is this motion debatable? it is the 7-day part, where my problem exists. Mr. SPEAKER. The motion is debatable. I have bren asked by several municipalities, when they Mr. SELTZER. Would the gentleman, Mr. Fryer, an- have called me and asked ahout the provisions of these swer one question? hills, il it would he possible that the 7 days he reduced The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman yield for just. a to 3 davs. Thev tell me--and I have no exaerience. and ..."...L..b.mnmont? that is why I am interrogating you, Mr. Fryer-that the The Chair was in error, as I suspected. The motion to problem they foresee is that oftentimes they really do not lay on the table is not debatable. That is rule 59 of the have their advertisement complete until almost the last H~~~~rules. minute. With a 3-day limit, they ran get it together and get it to their weekly newspaper before the deadline for On the question, the newspaper ads. Howrrcr, with the 7-day limit, in Will the House agree to the motion? effcct they are sayinq that they are required then to be ready to place the ads as much as 2 weeks in advance of The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. RYAN and the meeting. This presrnts a great prohlem to them, IRVIS and were as particularly in the smaller townships where they do not have h~ll-timetownship managers, where their boards of YEAS-87 supervisors meet monthly. and they get together and get 4nderaon. J. H. ~alvemon McGinnis Spencer around to putting the ads in. Would you agree that this Hamilton. J. H. Mebus Stahl :;I:: :;I:: H-ay Miller. M. E. Taddonla would creatc an additional problem for these types of ~~~~dtHaskell Miller. M. E.. Jr. Thomas communities? Rm Hayes. D. S. Moehlmam Turner Crsar Hayes. S. E. Noye Ustmoski Mr. FRYER. Mr. Speaker, in reply, when the commit- cimini Hcpford o'connell Vroon tee considered these hills, we had the representatives Crawlord Hill Pancoart Wagnet' Comberland Hopkins Parker, H. S. Weidnet there from the various local government associations, and Deverter Hutchinron. W. Perri Westerberg at no time was this matter brought up or considered Dietz Katr Pith Whelen important by these representatives of these local govern- niniM' Kelly, J. B. Polite Whfttleaey Dorr Kistler Pylcs Wilson ment associations. Possibly the gentleman's opposition to ~~~~~tt linga am an Renninger Wilt. R. W. the hill itself is generating that concern. Fisher Knepper Ryan Wilt, W. W. Foster. A. Kusse Salvatore worrilow Mr. RYAN. No. As a matter of fact, I voted for this roster. W. Lehr Sclieaffer wllght hill the last time. I voted to do this so that the local Scirica Yohn Ez::"' LmchLev1 Seltzer Zearfoss townships could save money. What frankly distresses me ~l~~~~~ Manmiller slrianni zeller is that it apparently was to no avail because the Governor Grim0 MeClatehy Smith, E. Zord vetoed it, md I suspect he will do the same thing again McCue Smith, L. because. the way our calendar is marked, the administra- NAYS-107 tian is opposed to these hills. But that does not bother p;h2," Gallagher McCall Ritter me, Mr. Speaker, the administration being opposed. They Garzia McLnne Romanelll usually do not get me right in line because of their opposi- ~~~b~~ Geisler McIntyre ROSS tion. What bothers me. though, are the recent communi- Bellomlni George Menhorn Rugglero Criilmmar~o Milliron Salaom cations I have had from the townships saying that this ::::$ Gillespie Miseevieh Schmitt is not going to save them money because now they are Bemon Glllette Morris Schweder going to have to advertise twice. This is not going to Gleeson Mrkonie Shane ~~~e~~uGoodmen Mullen. M. P. Shelhamer make it convenient for them hecaure now they are going Bradley Green Mullen Sllelton LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

I B-v Greenileld Must0 Shman until some decision was made, for want of a better term, Caputo Hemock Myers Shupnik Cohen Hutchinson. A. Novak Stapleton on a test bill. Cole ~rvls o'mien stout Mr. Speaker, it is the Governor's prerogative to veto CoweU Itkin O'Donnell Taylor those hills for whatever purpose he vetoes them, and it is Davls. D.M. Johnson. J. O'Keefe TayoUn DeMedlo Kelly. A. P. Oliver TOU our prerogative to pass legislation as we see fit. But Dlcarlo Kemick Wrry Rsllo somewhere along the line there is some common sense DiDonato Kolter Petrarca Vm D~rnbrowskl Kowalyshyn Plevsky ' Wansaez that enters into the passage of legislation, and I would Doyle LaMarca Prendergast Wargo hope that today we would use some common sense and try Dr-ibelblm Laudrdio Rappapart Wojdak and settle the issue onre and for ail with the test vehicle Eckensberser Laughlin Reed Yahner Englehut Lederer Renwfck Zaihl which is now lying in the other body's chamber. If they Pee Letterman Rhodes see fit to override that veto and this House follows suit, Fineher Lhcoln Richardson Flneman, nsherf9 hlanderino Flieger Speaker then I think it is incumbent upon us to pass the entire hyer package. But without doing that, Mr. Speaker, I think that it is an act of futility and I think that we are sort of NOT VOTING-8 making not much sense. Mr. Speaker, I would ask that Butera MeGraw hatt ValkenU we postpone action on these bills until the other bill is navie. Milanavlch Sullivan W&h, T. P. finally decided upon. So the question was determined in the negative and the The SPEAKER, The recognizes the gentleman motion was not agreed to. from Berks, Mr. Fryer. On the question recurring, Mr. FRYER. Mr. Speaker, I am most surprised with Shall the hill pass finally? the compassion the gentleman has for the Governor. It is quite refreshing. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman I do not mean to be critical of the Governor, but the from Lebanon, Mr. Seltzer. bills passed by an almost unanimous vote in the Senate, Mr. SELTZER. Mr. Speaker, would the gentleman and I pride myself on the fact that the legislative branch from Berks. Mr. Fryer,~. permit himself to be interrogated? 1 is independent. This is people's legislation. It should be The SPEAKER, Would the gentleman, MT. F~~~~,con- supported. We are being asked for support by our local sent to interrogation? government associations. It represents a savings to our overburdened taxpayers on the local level, and I think we Mr. FRYER. Yes, Mr. Speaker. should pass these bills and place them before the Gover- The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. nor. Ho~efully.someone could talk to whoever is in- Mr. SELTZER. Mr. Speaker, as a matter of infor- structing-the Governor and advising him on this matter mation, can you tell me and the House the number of the because most of us feel that he is being misaided on this companion hill to this package which was vetoed by the particular package. Governor several days ago? The SPEAKER. That was Senate bill No. 672. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the lady from Mr. SELTZER. Thank you, Mr. Sueaker. Allegheny, Mrs. Kernick. Mr. Speaker, can the chair inform the House whether Mrs. KERNICK. Mr. Speaker, as a former township or not the bill and the veto message has been read across auditor and township treasurer. I want to say that this the desk in the House? hill is extremely important to the people back home who The SPEAKER. The bill in question was a Senate bill pay :he hills. Our township has spent as much as $8,000 and is, therefore, returned to the Senate and received by to $10,000 in legal advertising because they could not sum- that body rather than the House. marize the ordinances or resolutions. Unfortunately, I Mr. SELTZER. Mr. Speaker, a further inquiry then. have asked local officials and our previous legislator from Mr. Speaker, custom dictates that if there is going to be Penn Mills to fully support such legislation, but we did an attempt to override a veto, it is attempted first in the not have any results. I urge this House to consider the House in which the bill originated. Is that correct? $4,000 to $5,000 that could he saved by your taxpayers The SPEAKER. That is correct. back home. Mr. SELTZER. Mr. Speaker, does the gentleman from Thank you. Berks, Mr. Fryer, have any indication what the other body might do in reference to Senate bill No. 672 which the The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Governor vetoed and which is part of this package? from Lebanon. Mr. Seltzer. Mr. FRYER. Mr. Speaker, lacking a crystal ball, I could Mr. SELTZER. Mr. Speaker, apparently I am not not make a prediction on that. capable of expressing myself properly to the gentleman Mr. SELTZER. Mr. Speaker. I was not asking for a and the people on the other side. I am not defending His prediction. In all honesty, I was asking whether the gen- Excellency, the Governor. I think he was wrong in veto- tleman had any sense of what the other body might con- ing this legislation just as much as you felt he was wrong. sider doing? But if you think we are going to save one nickel for Mr. Speaker, I believe there is a predominate number local government by passing this package of bills, you are of members on our side of the aisle who vnted for that only fooling yourselves. The only way we save money bill when it passed here some time ago who would feel for-local government is if these hills become law. If we compelled to vote in favor of this package of bills. But, do not have the cooperation of the executive in helping Mr. Speaker, it is sort of an act of futility, is it not, to these bills become law, we have not saved anybody one rub under a chief executive's nose the remaining part of nickel. I am interested in these bills becoming law; I am a package which he has just vetoed? In all honesty, we not interested in playing a sham here on the floor of this were attempting just to prolong the action on these bills House. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE

The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman ple-when it comes to an election-are trying to save pea- from Delaware, Mr. Garzia. nuts-30 cents per person per year. This is ridiculous. Mr. GARZIA. Mr. Speaker, I am also interested in the They will spend money at a state convention. They do horoughs and townships saving money. These bills will not mind bringing in a bill for $60 or $100 apiece for the save the boroughs and townships money. As an ex-mayor week they are there. They do not mind spending that of a borough, I know that we can save close to $3,000 to inuney, but they do not want to spfnd money to advertise $4,000 a year with these hills. an ordinance in full, and I mean in full. Now whatever the Governor does with these bills is his I think it is about time we quit this nonsense. Let the business. But I think that when we get them hack, we people know we will do what we tell them we will do at should override the veto if he vetoes them. I think that election time when we want to get elected. Let us knock if he gets enough of these hills over there, he will proh- these hills down. ably see the light of day and not veto them. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the lady from For your information, I happen to he one of Governor Allegheny, Mrs. Kernick. Shapp's coordinators in Delaware County, so I reject the Mrs. KERNICK. Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out innuendo you made about the Governor. !hat it is a rarity if more than 50 percent of the commu- Thank you. /nit". ..eets that newsoaoer. - in which these ads are "laced. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman The city of Pittsburgh advertises by summary, and the from Berks, Mr. Fryer. city of Pittsburgh is pretty well run. I do not think that Mr. FRYER. Mr. Speaker, the gentleman stated that it is necessary to advertise the whole thing. Anybody we are conducting a sham on the floor of this House, and who wants to see the ordinance or resolution in its en- it is kind of sad when we make a comment of that type. tirety can take a trip to the borough building or the town- I have watched the gentleman in past sessions when he ship building to do so. did not have a hit of a chance for bills to become law due to agproval of possibly the Senate and our Chief Execu- The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes lhe gentleman tive, and I did not at that time address myself to the mat- "Om Montgomery, Mr. Mebus. ter and say that hc was conducting a sham. Mr. MEBUS. Mr. Speaker, there is virtue in these hills, ~h~~~ bills are offered in good faith, ~h~~ were passed as fzr as I am concerned, insofar as the right of the public in the senate: they are now hefore us; the local govern. to know is concerned. By that I mean this: The legalese merit associations are supporting them, I say, let us pass that most of these ordinances contain is not readily under- them and then pass them on to the chief ~~~~~~i~~for standable to the public any more than a lot of the bills his action. that we deal with here are generally understandai-.!e tt: the public. We use summaries ourselves when we are The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman dealing with legislation here so that we can more readily from Lebanon, Mr. Seltzer. comprehend what we are dealing with. Mr. SELTZER. Mr. Speaker, if 1 may violate a rule of I think that the people's right to know will he ex- this House, which I seldom do, I urge the entire member. pand", not reduced, by the passage of these bills, and for ship of this House to perpetrate a sham and vote in the that reason I favor their passage whether they are going affirmative on these hills. to save a significant amount of money or not. I think that it is something helpful so that the folks who are The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman interested in reading their local newspapers can really frrim Lehigh, Mr. Zeller. understand what it is all about. Mr. ZELLER. Mr. Speaker, it surprises me no end to hear people get on the floor-people who are former of- On the question recurring, Shall the hill pass finally? ficials.,. ~eo~le . who are reoresentine- their constituents hack home-who are telling the taxpayers hack home that to the provision the constitution, the yeas they are going to fight for their rights, and yet they want and nays werF taken and were as follows: to pass a package of hills like this. Like Mi. Gar& I, too, was a former councilman and a 1 YEAS-137 mayor of a community. But I, for one, want the public Flaherty Levi Rlehardson to know that I think the Governor was right in what he iz:&m Foster. W. Lincoln Romanelli did. I will tell you why he was right in what he did. He Rnrber ~yer Lynch ROSS wants the people to know what is going on in those com- ~~~~~$'Gallsgher Manderino Rueglero Gallen McCall Scheaffer munities. ~~r~~ ~.~~.f~ M~CII~ seltzer-~- Now stop and think of the cost. For instance, it would Geisler ShBne E;;';" Ginrnmarco Shelhamer cost the Borough of Emmaus, roughly 1,400 people-I was n:.,k,,n Gillespfe Sirtannl the mayor-about 30 cents per person per year. The peo- nonetto Gillette Smith, E. Gleeson Smlth. I.. ple in my community go in to borough council or go in E:g:z r,oudman Spencor to see the so-called borough manager or borough secre- Rrllnner Oreen Moehlmn, Stan!etori tary with some of their problems and try to get some Greenfield 1

DlDonato Kelly, A. P. Parker. H. S. Wfhon BerUn Shane Dletz Kerniek Perry Wllt, W. W. Berson Shelhamer Dombrowskl Kistler Plevsky Wojdak Blackwell Shelton Doyle Klingaman Pltts Wright Bonetto Srnlth. E. Dreibelbls Kowalyshyn PoUte Zearfoss Bradley Spencer Englehsrt KUSS~ Pratt Zord Brandt Stahl Fewcett Laudadio Prendergast Brunner Stapleton Fee Laughlln Rappaport Weman. Caputo Taylor Fischer Lederer Renninger Speaker Cessar Tayoun Plsher Letterman Rhodes Clmlnl ~arnkaek iiovuk Thomu Cohen Hasay Noye Toll Hayes, D. S. O'Brlen Trello Hayes. S. E. O'Donnell Ustynoslrt Hill O'Keefe Vann Ws Oliver Vroon Itkin Pancoast Wenaaer Dlnm Katr Pyles Johnson, J. Parker. H. S Wrldner Dorr Kelly. J. B. Reed Kelly, A. P. Perry Westerberg Eekensberger Knepper Renwlck KUngaman Plercky Whelan Foster. A. Kolter Ritter Kowalyshyn Pftts Wllt. W. W. Geesey LaMarca Saloom Kusse Polite Wojdak GeorEe Lehr Salvatore Laud~dlo Pmtt Zenrfors ~lea&n Manmiller Sehmitt Lau~~hlln Prendergast Zord Halverson McClatchy Schweder Lederer Rappaport Hamilton. J. H. Miller, M. E. Seirlea Letterman Renningfr Ffnemsn. Iiaskell Miller. M. E.. Jr. Shuman Lev1 Rhodes Speaker Lincoln NOT VOTING-13

Blttle Mllanovlch Ryan Sullivan Davles O'Brlen Shelton VaUeenti Anderson. J. H. Hepford Musto Smith. L. MeCraw Rleger Stahl Walsh. T. P. Blttle Hopktns O'Connell Stout McIntyre Hutchinsan. A. Perrl Taddonlo Crawford-~~. Hutrhlnsnn. W.~ -.~~Petrarea--.- Turner- --~~.- The majority required by the constitution having voted Katz Pyies Wagner EEE Kelly. J. R. Recd Wareo in the affirmative, the question was determined in the ~i,,i,,d Kernlck Renwick Whlttlerey affirmative. Klstlcr Rltter Wlhon Knppper Saloom Wilt. R W Ordered, That the clerk return the same to the Senate Kolter Salvatore Worrilow w~thinformation that the House has nassed the same with LaMarca sehmitt Wrlght Lehr Sehi~-eder Yehner amendments in which the concurrence of the Senate is E:21$:n Manmlller Sc1rIca Yahn requested. fIalverson McClatchy Seltzer Zeller Iiamllton. J. H. Mlller, M. E. Shuma:~ Zwlkl Haskell Miller. M. E.. Jr. Shuonlk QUESTION OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE i NOT VOTING-11 The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the minority ~~t~~~ Mllanovlch Rieger VaUcentl whip. For what purpose does the gentleman rise? Dnuler Miscevlch Slriannl Welsh, T. P. Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of per- McGraw Mullen. M. P. Sullivan sonal privilege. The majority required by the constitution having voted The SPEAKER. The gentleman will state it. in the affirmative, the question was determined in the Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, I voted Mr. Butera "yes," and affirmative. neglected to vote myself on Senate bill No. 668. I would Ordered, That the clerk return the same to the Senate like Mr. Butera's vote transferred to Ryan. with information that the House has passed the same with The SPEAKER. The record will so reflect. amendments in which the concurrence of the Senate is requested. Aereeable to order. The House proceeded to third consideration of Senate bill No. 669, printer's No. 1242, entitled: QUESTIONS OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE An Act amending the act of February 1, 1966 (1965,.P.. L. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the lady from 1656, No. 581), entitled "The Borough Code," permitting Allegheny, Mrs. Kernick. For what purpose does the lady advertisement of the titles and summarizations in lieu of the entire text of proposed ordinances. rise? Mr. KERNICK. I rise to a question of personal privi- On the question, lege. Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration? The SPEAKER. The lady will state it. Bill was agreed to. Mrs. KERNICK. Mr. Speaker, I would like my vote on Senate hill No. 669 to he recorded as "yes." The~ SPEAKER.~~ This bill has been considered on three different days and agreed to and is now on final passage. Thank you. The question is, shall the hill pass finally? The SPEAKER. The lady, Mrs. Kernick, will he re- corded as "yes." Agreeable to the provision of the Constitution, the yeas and nays will now be taken. The Chair recognizes the lady, Miss Sirianni. Miss SIRIANNI. I would like to be recorded "no" on

YEAS-128 Senate hill~ --.. No-~ 1369.-~~~ Abraham Foster. W. Lwch Richardson The SPEAKER. The lady's vote will be so recorded. Arthum Fryer Manderino Romanelll Barber Gallagher MeCall Ross Agreeable to order, Bellomlnl Gallen MeCue Ruqglero The House ~roceededto third consideration of Senate Bennett Ga~zla McGlnnls Ryan Beren Geisler McIntyre Scheaffer bill No. 670, piinter's No. 1263, entitled: 1975. LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE 3065

An Act amending the act of June 24, 1931 (P. L. 1206, An Act amending the act of August 9, 1955 (P. L. 323, No. 331), entitled "The First Class Township Code," per- No. 130), entitled "The County Code," permitting adver- mltting advertisement of the titles and summarizations in tisement of the titles and summarizations in lieu of the lieu of the entire text of proposed ordinances. entire text of proposed ordinances. On the question, On the question, Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration? Will the House agree to the hill on third consideration? Bill was agreed to. Bill was agreed to. The SPEAKER. This hill has been considered on three The SPEAKER. This bill has been considered on three different days and agreed to and is now on final passage different days and agreed to and is now on final passage. The question is, shall the bill pass finally? The question is, shall the bill pass finally? Agreeable to the provision of the Constitution, the yeas Agreeable to the provision of the Constitution, the yeas and nays will now he taken. and nays will now he taken. YEAS-131 YEAS-130

Abraham Gallagher Manderino Rieger Abraham Foster, W. Lynch Rieger Arthum Gallen McCall Romanelll Arthurs Fryer Manderlno Romanelli Barber Garrla McCue Ross Barber Gallagher MeCall Ross Bellormnl Gcisler McGinnis Ruggiero BellominI Gsllen McCue Rugglero Bennett Giamm~r~o McIntyre Ryan Bennett Garrla McGinnls Ryan Beren Gillespie McLane Scheaffer Beren Gelsler MeIntne Scheaffer Bum Gillette Mebus Shane Berlin Giammarco MeLane Snane Berson Gleeson Menhorn Shelhamer Berson Gillespie Mebus Shelhanicr Blackwell Goodman Milliron Shelton RlaekweU Gillene Menhorn Shelton Bonetto Green Miscevich Smith. E. Ronetto Gleeson Milliron Smlth. E. Bradley Greenfield Moehlmann Smlth. L. Bradley Green Miscevich Smlth. L. Brandt Grieco Morns Spencer Brandt Greenfield Morrip. Spencer Brunner Gring Mrkanle Stahl Brunner Grleeo Mrkonie Stahl Caputo Hammock Mullen. M. P. Stapleton Caputo Gring Mullen Stapleton cessar Hasay Mullen Taylor Cessar Hammock Mullen. M. P Taylor CirmnI Hayes, D. S. Myers Tayoun Ciminl Hasay Myers Tayoun Cohen Hayes. S.E. NOYB~ Thomas Cnhen Hayes, D. S. Novak Thomas Cole Hill Noyc Toll Cole Hayes, S. E. Nose Toll Cowell IrYls O'Connell Trello Cowell Hill O'Donnell TreUo Cumberland Itkin O'Donnell Ustynoskl Cumberland Irvis O'Keefe Ustynosk! Davis. D. M. Johnson. I. O'Keefe Vam Davfs D. M. I*ln Ollver van,, Dicarlo Kelly. A. P. Oliver Vrmn Dlearlo Johnson, J. Pancoast Vroon DiDonato Kernlck Psneoast Wamacz DiDonato Kelly. A. P. Parker. H. S. Wansacz Dietz Klingaman Parker. H. S. Weldner Dletz Kcmick Perry Weldner Dombrows*l Kowsly~hm Perry Westerberg Dombrowski Klinpaman Pievsky Westerbere Doyle Kusse Plevsky Whelan Doyle Kowalyshm Pitts Whelan Drelbelbls Laudadio Polite Wllt. W. W. Dreibelbls KUSS~ Polite Wilt. w W FaWEett Laughlin Pran Woidak Englehart Laudadio Pratt Wojdak Fee Lede~er Prenderga.st Zearfoss Fawcett Loushlln Prendergast Zearfosn Mscher Letterman Rappaport Zord Fee Lederer Rappaport Zord Fisher Lev1 Rennlnger Fischer Letterman Reqninger Flaherty Lincoln Rhodes Ffneman. Fish- Levl Rhodes Fineman. Foster. W. Lmch Rlchard~on Speaker ~lah~rt). Lincoln Richardson Speakci mver

Shupnik Anderson. J. EL O'Brten Slfiannl Anderson. J. 8. Hepford Must0 Slilannl Bittle Hoblrlns Perrt stout Bittle Hopkins O'Brien Bums Hutchinson. A. Petrarca Bums Hui~hlnson.A. O'Connell stout Taddonio Taddonlo Crawfold Hutohinson. W. Pltts Turner Crawford Hutchinson. W. Perri DeMedlo Katz Pyles Wagner DeMedlo Katz Petrarca Turner Wagner Devarter Kelly. J. B. Reed Wargo Deverter Kell~,J. B. Pylea DininnI Klatler Renwick Whittleley Dlnlnnl Klstler Reed Wargo Dorr Kneooer Rltter Wilson Dorr Knepper Renwick Whittlesey Eckensherger Saloom Wilt. R. W. Eckensberger Kolter Rltter Wilson Foster. A. Salvatore Worrlloa. Foster. A. LaMarca Saloom Wilt. R. W worii~ow Gcerey Lehr Schmitt Wright Geesey Lehr Salvatore George Manmiller Schweder Yahner George Manmiller Schmitt Wright Gleason MeClatchy Scirica Yohn Glesaon McCIatchy Schweder Yahner Halverson Miller. M. E. Seltzer &Ue* Goodman Miller. M. E. scirica Yohn Hamtlt~n.J. H. Miller. M. E.. Jr. Shuman Zwlld ZIalverson Miller. M. E.. Jr. Seltzer Haskell Must0 ShupnUr Hamilton. J. H. Moehlmam Sh~unan Haskell NOT VOTING-8 I NOT VOTING-7 Butera Englehart Milanovieh Vallcentl Butera McGraw Sullivan Walsh. T. P Davies McGraw Sullivan Warn. T. P. Davfes Milanovieh Vallcentl The majority required by the constitution having voted The majority required by the constitution having voted in the affirmative, the question was determined in the in the affirmative, the question was determined in the affirmative. affirmative. Ordered, That the clerk return the same to the Senate Ordered. That the clerk return the same to the Senate with information that the House has passed the same with with information that the House has passed the same with amendments in which the concurrence of the Senate is amendments in which the concurrence of the Senate is requested. requested. Agreeable to order, Agreeable to order, The House proceeded to third consideration of Senate The House proceeded to third consideration of Senate bill No. 671, printer's No. 1244, entitled: bill No. 707, printer's No. 1245, entitled. 3066 LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE October 16,

An Act amending the act of May 1, 1933 (P. L. 103, No. from Cambria, Mr. Gleason. Does the gentleman, Mr. fig), entitled h he Second Class Township Code," permit- Gleason, have amendments to Senate bill No. 572, printer's ting advertisement of the titles and summarlzat~onsm lieu of the entire text of proposed ordinances. No, 8751 The Chair understands that the gentleman had offered On the question, his amendments this morning. The amendments were Will the House agree to the hill on third consideration? read, Bill was agreed to. Mr. GLEASON. I believe that Mr. Ritter has an amend- The SPEAKER. This bill has been considered on three ment to the amendment which I think may take pre- different days and agreed to and is now on final passage. cedence over my amendment. The question is, shall the bill pass finally? The SPEAKER. That is correct. Agreeable to the provision of the Constitution, the yeas On the question recurring, and nays will now be taken. Will the House agree to the amendments? YEAS-133 Mr. RITTER requested and obtained unanimous con- Abraham Frver Mandenno Rieger sent to offer the following amendment to the amendments, Arthllls Gallagller McCa11 Romanelli Barher Gallen MeCue Ross which was read: Be!IomlI1l GarzI8 McCinnis Ruggiero Amend Page 2, lines 7 and 8, by striking out "Such nennctt Geialpr Mcrntyre Ryan Beren Giornmarco Mr1,nne Schraffer determ~nationshall he made prior to December 1, 1915." Rr,rlin Oillesple Mebus Shanc Berson Gillette Menhorn Shclhaaer On the question, Rlaelovell Gleeson Milliron Sheltm Will the House agree to the amendment to the Gleason >:0n"tt0 Green Miscevieh Smith, E. Bradley Greenflcld Mochlmann Smith, I.. amendments? Brandt Grieco Morris Spencer Brunner ring Mrkonic Stab1 The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Caputo Aammoek hlulicn, M. P. Stapleton from Lehigh, Mr. Ritter. Cessar Hasny Mullen Taylor Cimini =ayes. D. S. MYP~S Tayoun Mr. BITTER. Mr. Speaker, my amendment seeks to Cohen Hayes, S. E. NOVJ~ Thomas amend the Gleason amendment by removing one sen- Cole Hill Noye Toll tence. That sentence reads: "Such determination shall Cowell ~min O'Connell TWUO Cumberland Itkin ~'~onneii T:stynosi:l be made prior to December 1, 1975.'' Davis. D. M. Johnson. J. CsK~pf~ Vnnn If this amendment is adopted, the effect of the amend- Dicarlo Kelly, A. P. ol!ver vroorl DiDonato !YJ. B pancoast Wansacz ment will be to say that in third through eighth class Dietz Kcrnick Parker. 13. S. U'eidner counties, the district attorney's office will remain as it is Dombromkl Klingaman ~erry Westerberg Doyle K1xvalyshyn Plrvsky Whelm and it will be up to the county commissioners to make a Drc'belbfa Kussc Pitts win, w. w. determination prior to the subsequent election for district Fnglehart taudsdio Polite Wojdak attorney in that particular county. I ask support for the Fawrett taoghlln Pratt Zearfoss Fee 1.cderer Pr-ndcrgnst Zord amendment, Mr. Speaker. Fischer L~tterman Rappapart Fisher Leri Rrnninger Fineman. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Flahrrly Lincoln Rllodes Speaker Foster. W. Lynch Richlrrlsan from Cambria, Mr. Gleason. Mr. GLEASON. Mr. Speaker, the effect of the Ritter NAYS-62 amendment will destroy any chance for third and eighth Anderson. J. H. Haskell O'Brien Sirianni class counties in Pennsylvania to exercise the very same Bittle Heplord Perri Stout Burns Ho~kIll8 Petrilrcn Taddonio option we gave second and second class A counties yes- crawford Hutel~lnson.A. ~yles Turner terday. I believe we gave that option to the second and ~cxedio IIutchimon. W. ~ced Waencr second class A counties yesterday by a very significant Dcverter Kotz Renuick Wargo n4ninnl Kistler R!tter Whittlescy vote. DOT~ Knmper Ralootn Wilson Mr. Speaker, we all have problems; we all have local Wclrrnsherger Kolter Salratore Wilt. R. W. Foster. A. LaMarta Schmitt Wo~l~a nolitical problems so obviously most of us have got to Gerseg Lehr sctrw,.der wrig!;t vote our own concerns. I know several fourth class and r.eorge Milanmlller EL.:TICB Yahnrr even fifth class counties that want this option. I hope, G!eeson MeClvtehy Seltzer Yohn Goodman Mlller, M. E. Shurnsn Zeller personally, that my own commissioners in my fourth class Hahemon Miller. M. E.. Jr. shupnik Zwikl county will opt for a full-time district attorney. IIamiltan. J. H. Mosto But I think we have to remember that the hill, even NOT VOTING-7 with my amendment, only allows such a choice before Bulera XcGrsw sulliva~ Walsh, T,P, the district attorney-elect takes his office in January and Davies hlilanovtch viilicrnti begins then his term of office. This House has already 'The majority required by the constitution having voted adjudged this by a majority vote to be proper. If we in the affirmative, the question was determined in the gave a choice to second class and second class A counties, affirmative. why cannot we give the other counties as well the very Ordered, That the clerk return the same to the Senate Same option? We are only talking here about an option, with information that the House has passed the same with remember. I ask the members from those counties; that amendments in which the concurrence of the senate is is. second class and second class A, to give those of us in requested. the third to eighth class counties the very sam? option. Let us now, all of us, extend to all of the counties, second CONEXDERATION OF class ibrough eighth class, the option to declare their dis- SENATE RTLL NO. 572 RESUMED trict attorneys full time or part time. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman The Ritter amendment would render this option mean- 1976. LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE 3067 ingless for a 4-year period of time. At least with rn~.changed on them; nobody is being surprised. I would, amendment, which will be before the House, it gives the frankly, like to have our local government officials have counties a chance to exercise that option for a full-time this option. Should they choose to follow it-which I do or a part-time district attorney. I ask for a negative vote not know whether they will-I would like them to have on Mr. Ritter's amendment. I would ask everybody to this option to make it a full-time district attorney with- vote "no." out having- it locked in for 4 more vears. I. therefore. urge you to vote "no" on this amendment The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Thank you, Speaker, from Lehieh.-, Mr. Ritter.~ ~~~ Mr. RITTER. Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman amendment. I realize the hour is late and all of us are from Camhria, Mr. Gleason. tired, but let me give you some illustrations as to why I Mr. GLEASON. Just briefly, a few words in response object to the December 1 provision. to Mr. Ritter. I think Mr. Shane started to say that the We are going to have a general election on November 4. Part-time or full-time district attorney situation is not We are going to elect new county commisioners in some new to anybody who is running for that office in Penn- cases; in some cases we are going to retain the old com- sylvania. If we were to listen to Mr. Ritter carefully, it missioners. We are going to have, in a lot of counties, a would seem that suddenly we have had this idea of part- complete changeover in terms of county commissioners. time or full-time district attorneys sprung upon us this You are saying, then, that regardless of what the people sfternoon, but quite the contrary is the case. The issue said on November 4, you are going to allow those lame has been before us any number of times. What we are duck commissioners to say, by December 1, that the office talking about is local option to determine what is best of district attorney, which was already voted on on No- for law enforcement in a specific county or a class of vember 4, is now going to be a full-time job and it is counties. going to cost the taxpayers $1,000 less than it does for the I would ask once again, if you care for the third through judges in the courts of common pleas in that particular eighth class counties, if you want that kind of option for county. I think that is ludicrous. I even object to the Your counties, that you vote "no" on the Ritter amend- provision of letting- them do it hs November 1-3 davs ment. prior to a general election. On the question recurring. Let us not give somebody an opportunity after the Will the House agree to the amendment to the Gleason election has been made to change the rules and say to a amendments? person who has been elected district attornev. von~~ now~ have 30 days to divest yourself of any partnership, any The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. RITTER interest in any corporation, any outside income, and you and GLEASON and were as follows: better do that within 30 days or you are going to forfeit your office. YEAS-72 I think that all of these arguments I am raising are Arthur8 George McCall Schmltt Barber Giemmarco McLane Schweder legitimate arguments. They are matters which ought to Rellominl Gillette Menhorn Shelhamer concern us. Certainly, if someone wanted to say to us, Bennett Gleeson Morris Shuman either 3 days before election or, in this case, 3 weeks after Mullen. M. P. Smith. E. ::En GreenReldGreen Myers Taylor election, that everyone of us is going to have to be full Blackwell Hammock O'Donnell Tayoun time; everyone of us is going to have to give up outside Ilutchinson. W. Oliver momas z:",:; lrvls Petrarcs Toll income, we would automatically reject it, and everybody cohen .rohmm. J. Pievsky Wansacr in this Hou-e I think knows it. I am asking for the same Cole Kelly, A. P. Pratt Wargo Dicarlo Kernick Rappaport Weidner consideration for people who are going to be elected on i,ombrowslrl Klingaman Henwick Wojdak November 4. Do not change the rules prior to this elec- Eckensberger Laudadio Richardson Yahner :::,, Laughlin Ritter Zeller tion. At least give them an opportunity to know what led ere^ ROSS Zwikl you are going to do before you do it to them. I ask for Gallagher Letterman Saloom support of this amendment. Geesey ~ineoln Scheaffer Ffnemsn, Geisler Speaker The SPEAKER. The Chair recoenizes- the -eentleman -NAVS-12n .------" from Indiana, Mr. Shane. Abraham Gillespie McCue Salvatore Mr. SHANE. Mr. Speaker, I oppose this amendment. Ande1son.J.E. Gleason McGlnnis Seiriea Beren Goodman Mebus I represent a sixth class county. Our judges, one of ~ittl~ Grieco Miller, M. E. SeltzerShene whom, I guess, is a Republican and one a Democrat, our Brandt Gring Miller. M. E.. Jr. Sheltor~ gLU= Haiverson MilUran Shupnik commissioners, two of whom are Republicans and one is a Hamilton, J. 8. Mireevich Sirfatmi Democrat, our two district attorney candidates this time, Cesrar ~asay Moehhnann Smith, L. Fgz Haskell Mrkonie Spencer and our retiring district attorney are all very interested Hayes. D. S. Mullen Stahl in this possibility of a full-time district attorney. In a crawtord Hayes, S. E. ust to Stapleton growing area, with a college community and other people Cumberland HePford Novak Stout Davis. D. M. Hi11 No ye Taddonlo coming in, it is something they want to consider. I am ~~~~di~Hopkins O'Brien Trello not sure our local government people are going to adopt Deverter Hutchinson, A. O'ConnclI Turner DiDoneto Itkin O'Keefe Ustynoski the policy of a full-time district attorney, but they are Katz Paneoast Vann now actually considering it; the issue of a full-time dis- DininnI Kelly. J a. Parker. H. S. Vroon trict attorney is being discussed by the candidates. So I Klstler Perri Wagner Eiz, Knepper Perry Westerberg feel that the people, at least in our area, are very much Dreibelbi. Kolter Pitts Whelan nware of the possibility of this legislation. Englehart Kowalyshyn Polite Whlttlesey Fawectt Kusse Prendergast Wilson Nobody out where I live feels that the rules are being rischer LaMarea Pyler Wilt. R. W. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

Fisher Lehr Reed Wilt. W W. Mr. THOMAS. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Flaherty Levi Renninger Worrllow Foster, A. Lynch Rieger Wright Now I am not too sure, Mr. Speaker, that this is what ~~c+rrw Manderino Romanelli Yohn we want in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania at this particular time. I serve from a judicial district serving two counties with one judge. My same judicial district NOT VOTING-I0 has two part-time district attorneys. Should the county commissioners of each of those counties decide that my BonettD McGraw Rhades ValicenU district attorneys should be on a full-time basis, we Butera McIntyre SulUvan Walsh. T. P. Davies Mi!anovich would have two district attorneys, who do not have that much work, each receiving $1,000 less than the judge So the question was determined in the negative, and receives, and the judge has far more work to do than the the amendment to the GLEASON amendments was not district attorneys in that particular area. I think we are agreed to. tresding on very dangerous ground here, and I would ask that we vote in the negative. On the question recurring, Will the IIouse agree to the amendments? The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman, The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentlemar Mr. Gleason. from Cambria, Mr. Gleason. Mr. GLEASON. Mr. Speaker, the gentleman is making Mr. GLEASON. I ask for an affirmative vote, Mr certain assumptions which I do not think are based in Speaker. I think the issues have been very well ven- what he says. His assumption is that almost automati- tilated and aired before the House. I would hope tha: cally the county commissioners in the seventh class county the House would now extend to the third and eighth clas: are going to make a part-time district attorney full time counties the same thing that was done for the second clas! who, apparently, is not as overloaded as those in the third, and second class A counties. fourth, fifth and sixth class counties. I think that we can depend upon the good judgment of some of our local of- The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman ficials and our elected officials to do the right thing for from Snyder, Mr. Thomas. the county. Mr. THOMAS. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. All this hill does is give them an option. If, in their Would Mr. Gleason consent to a brief interrogation? opinion, the proper administration of justice does The SPEAKER' the G1eason' not require full-time district attorneys, then they will, of consent to interrogation? course, vote against that sort of a proposition. All we Mr. GLEASON. Yes, Mr. Speaker. are asking, again, Mr. Speaker, is an option and that is all. Mr. THOMAS. If I understand this amendment cor- I ask for an affirmative vote, rectly, this will now allow all counties, or the county commissioners of all counties, to determine whether the ~h~ SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman district attorney shall be part time or full time? from Bucks, Mr. Wright. Mr. GLEASON. That is correct, the third through M~,WRIGHT, M*. speaker, I would like to reiterate eighth class counties. Yesterday we took care of the the point made by Gleason, The key word in this second class and the second class A counties. amendment is "may." If your county does not need a Mr. Now let us take a case full-time district attorney, it is your option not to appoint such as Mr. Ritter was talking about, where we might those of us who are in counties that need full- have a lame duck commissioners' board that would decide time district attorneys would like to have the option of --take a seventh class county such as I am in-on a full- eppointing them in our case, An affirmative vote on this time basis for district attorney. Would his salary auto- would he appreciated by those counties that seriously matically become $39,000 a year? need full-time district attorneys. Mr. GLEASON. Well, the bill provides far the option Thank you, to be exercised by the county commissioners. But I think to characterize the county commissioner as a lame duck ~h,SPEAKER, ~h~ chair recognizes the gentleman would seem to indicate that he has no power whatsoever from ~~hi~h,M~,~i~t~~. between the eiection and the next time we take the oath RITTER, Speaker, I rise to oppose the hill of office. Such is not the case. County commissioners or for a number of reasons other than the one that I offered any elected officials are allowed to exercise his or her an amendment to. responsibilities between election time and January. I think the lame-duck argument, M~.speaker, is really The SPEAKER. Does the gentleman indicate that he is irrelevant in terms of what is best for the county and Opposing the Or the amendment? what is best for the proper administration of criminal RTI"I'ER. The amendment. I am sorry, Mr. justice in that county. So that is my answer to the gen- Speaker. One of the reasons is that this amendment says tleman~.. . --. --. . that "The district attorney while in office, shall not derive Mr. THOMAS. Well, then, let us approach it in a little any other income, . . ." et cetera, and it says, ". . . lec- different manner. Mr. Speaker, let us just forget the ture~,honorariums, profit shares or divisions of income lame duck board of commissioners now. ~ss~mingthat from any firm with which the district attorney was as- any board af commissioners in the seventh class county prior to election." would decide that their district attorney's office should It seems to me that if he earned profit shares prior to be full time, would his salary automatically be $1,000 his election but was not paid until after his election, he less thsn the judge receives. would be in fact in violation if he accepted that money, Mr. GLEASON. In accordance with this amendment, because there is a further clarification which says that the answer to that, of course, is yes. any income that he earned as fees for services performed 1975. LEGISLATIVE JOURNAkHOUSE 3069

prior to the election he can receive after the election. It So the question was determined in the affirmative and says nothing at all about profit sharing or dividends. the amendment were agreed to. This amendment also talks in terms of the election. Now the election is going to he, Mr. Speaker, on Novem- RECONSIDERATION OF VOTE ON CAPUTO AMENDMENTS TO SENATE BILL No. 572 her 4. What happens.. if bv December 1 the commissioners decide it is now going to be full time? What happens to The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman the income that he got in the interim? Is he in fact in Crom Allegheny, Mr. Caputo. For what purpose does the violation when the amendment says after the date of gentleman rise? election he cannot do these things? Mr. CAPUTO moved that the vote by which his amend- I am saying that the amendment is poorly drawn. It ments to Senate bill No. 572 were defeated on Wednesday, ought to be effective January 1, 1976. Let it be effective October 15, 1975, be reconsidered. for the next term but not this term. I think the amend- Mr. ENGLENART seconded the motion. ment is defective. I am convinced that if we pass it and the Governor should happen to sign it-I do not think hr On the question, will sign it. I think the interpretation by the Attorney Will the House agree to the motion? General will he that there are manv unconstitutional Motion was agreedto. provisions in here, and I think we should defeat the the question recurring, amendment and get on with the bill. Will the House agree to the amendments? On the question recurring, The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Will the House agree to the amendments? from Allegheny, Mr. Caputo. The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. GLEASON Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, yesterday I offered an and THOMAS and were as follows: amendment to this hill which would provide that the counties pay the expenses for meetings of the various YEAS-142 professional associations of which row officers are mem- Abraham Foster. W. McCnll RomaneUi bers. The amendment has the effect of increasing the Anderson. J. H. Gallagher MeClatehy Ross allowances paid by counties presently under existing law Arthun Garde MeCue Ruggiero to $300 in third and fourth class counties-this is on an Barber Geisler McGinnis Ryan ~cllomi~l Giammerco McLane Seloorn annual basis-$200 in fifth and sixth class counties, and Bennett Gillesple Mebus Salvatore $100 in seventh and eighth class counties. Berlin Gleasm Menhorn Seheaffer Bel~on Gleeson ~iller.M. E. schmitt Yesterday there was quite a bit of confusion as to Bittle Goodman Miller, M. E.. Jr. Shane whether or not presently these expenses are paid by coun- Blackwell Green Milliron Shelhamer Ronetta Greenfield Miseevieh Shelton ties. I am informed that they are being paid by counties Bradley Grieeo Moehlmann Smith. E. presently, and this is just a small increase in the amount lirana Gang Morris Smith. L. of money that the counties would be paying for these Brunner Hamilton, J. 8. Mullen Spencer Rum Haskell Mullcn, M. P. stahl associations as dues for their own officers which is based Caputo Hayes. D. S. Myem Stapleton on the cost of increased clerical staff and increased costs Ciminl Hepford Novak Stout Cohen Hill Naye Toll of hotel accommodations and meetings and dinners which Cole Hookins 0'6ricn ~rello are conducted when the county officials meet. Cowell Hutchinson. A. O'Donnell Ustynoski I would like to say that I was not too disappointed Crawlord Irvis O'Kecfe Vmn Cumberland ltkin Oliver Vroon yesterday because I did not carry the point in this case, Davis. D.x. Johnson. J. Paneoast Wansac* but I have had calls from several associations, including DeMedio Katz Perrl Wargo ~icarlo Kelly, A. P. Perry Weidner principally the Sheriffs' Association of the Commonwealth DiDonato Kerniek Petrarca Westerberg of Pennsylvania, and the calls I had this morning and last Dininnl Kistler Pievsky Whelan Dombroankl Koiter Pitts Wllson night were from both Democrats and Republicans. It is DO~ Kowalyshyn Polite Wilt. R. W. my understanding that several Republican officials have Doyle Laudadio Prendergast wojdsk called members of the other side of the House and have Dreibelbh Lederer Pyles Wright Englehvt Lehr Rappaport Yohn asked their support. I am reiterating that request to all Fee Letterman Reed Zeari- members of this House and I ask favorable consideration Fisher Llneolll Rcnninger of the amendment. Flaherty Manderino Richardson Pineman, Foster. A. Manmiller Rieger Speaker The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman NAYS45 from Lehigh, Mr. Zeller. Mr. ZELLER. Mr. Speaker, as I stated yesterday in Cessar Hasay hlusto Taylor Deverter Hayes, S. E. O'Connell Tayoun opposition to Mr. Caputo's amendment, this is exactly Dietz Kelly. J. B. Parker, H.S. ~homaa what is happening and he has confirmed it. They are Eekemberger Klingaman Pratt Turner Faweett Knepper Renwick Wagner getting calls from the Sheriffs' Association; they are go- Fischer Kusse Ritter Wilt, W. W. ing to get calls from all the associations now. They all Fryer LilMarca Schweder Worrilow Gallen 1.uughlln Shuman Yahner want to get on this good old gravy-train bandwagon, and Geesey ~evi Shupruk zeller this is what is going to happen. It will be the clerks of George Lynch Sir!anni Zord Courts; we are going to have a whole gang coming in Gillette Mrkonic Taddonio Zalkl ~~~versoa--~ -prothonotaries. Let us give them all an association. What the heck, we have been very liberal here today; NOT VOTING-15 lei us give them all a break. Why just stop at the district Beren Hutchinson. W. Rhades Vnlicentl attorneys? Let us take care of everybody. We are sit- Butera MeGraw Sciriea Wd'h. T. P. ting in a real socialistic welfare operation here. Let us Davies Mclntyre Seltzer Wllittlesey Hammock ~ilenovich Sullivan take care of them all. 3070 LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

So I think it is about time we pull the cork on this, and The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman let us shoot this one down and let us get on with the from Lehigh, Mr. Zeller. amendment I have which will clear the whole thing up; Mr. ZELLER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. there will he no problem. Let us vote it down. I have a verv simule amendent here. It will take~ out~~~ everything in the bill with the exception of what Mr. On the question recurring, Gleason just put in and what Mr. Caputo put in. Will the House agree to the amendments? I believe if you would like to rule on it, I think we probably should have a ruling to see whether or not this The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. CAPUTO and ZELLER and were as follows: is proper, because, in all fairness, I had it drawn up by the Legislative Reference Bureau, naturally, and Mr. YEAS-102 Rehr said it would probably he good to call it to your attention to see whether or not I can really do it the way Roan th~sis drawn, because the bill is in different shape now. XUYY~F~" Ryan But what I am doing is tearing out what the original bill had completely, and all that is left is what Mr. Glea- son has put in and what Mr. Caputo has put in. Beren G1:unmaroo Menhorn Sciriea Berlin Gilleapie I,M E Seltzer I Thank you Seraon Gleeson Miller, M. 6.. Jr. Sheiton Uiltle Gwen Dlnehlmann Stahl On the question recurring, Hlnekwell <::eenfield Mullen. M. P. Stanleton Esnetto Grieeo Myers Taddonlo Will the House agree to the amendments? Binndt Ilalversan Novnk Toll RNnner Noye Trel1o The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. ZELLER Burns O'cunnell Van" Cu~uto O'lieefe Wanssez and SHUMAN and were as follows: Ceasar Oliver U'hittlese~ Co-aell Parker. 11, S. wiiron YEAS-27 Cumberland E'etrsrra Wilt. R. W. UIDonato Wojrlak T'ievsky Cimlnl Gring MeCue Tayoun 1)omhroa.n rittr Wriaht H. Yohn 1 Dietz Hamliton. J. Perri Waener Dorr rrrtt Hasay Ra~t,a"oit Zord Renwlek weidner Iluyla Ketz Enalehart Renninzer Salvatore Westerbere 17ee 1

Brndl~ EIamiltun. J. H. McGinnis Sh"""ik Ciminl IPammoek Mlliiron sirianni Abraham Saloorn Cole Hnsny Mineevieh smith. E. Andemn. J. E Scheaffcr crswfor.3 H:xrkell Moiria Smith. I.. Arthur6 Schmitt Davis. D. M. Ililyes. D. S. Alikonie Silencer Barber Schweder I)eMedlo Hayes. S. E. Mullen stout Bellomlnl ~illetie Menhorn Seirica Elill Musto Taylor Bennett Gleason Miller, M.E. Seltzer Katz O'nrien Tayoun Beren Gleeson Miller. M.E.. Jr. Shane lir~.niek Pancoast Thomas Berlin Goodman Mllliron Shelharner I

Dicarlo ~-~1

LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL--HOUSE October 16,

Section 2. Section 1203 of the act, amended April 18, and I would like to say that if the commission itself 1949 (P.L. 509, No. 119), is amended to read: cannot purchase lands for $100 per acre, I feel that they Section 1203. Acknowledgment of Guilt.-(a) Any person charged with violating any provisions of this act, cannot to pay an acre. other than those designated as a misdemeanor or a I think this body was very generous a year ago in felony, may sign an acknow'edgmcnt of the offense com- giving the Game Commission a license increase to operate mitted, either before or after the beginning of suit, and pay to any duly appointed and commissioned game pro- their commission and their game program effectively, tector, or deputy game protector, the fine provided by which I believe they have dnne, hut I do not think we this act, together with costs accruing to that date, and ougbt to turn them into a public entrepreneur in purchas- surrender to the Commonwealth any bird or animal, or ing land all over at high costs. part thereof, or any article, implement, device or equip- ment the use of which is expressly forbidden by this A couple of years ago, you will remember, we raised act, unlawCully taken or possessed. the allowable purchase prices for the Game Commission (b) Such person shall receive a printed receipt there- up to $100 an acre, which was a substantial increase from for, which shall bear the imprint of the seal of the com- what they previously had been allowed. We found in mission and the signature of its executive director, wh~ch shall he evidence of full satisfaction of the offense com- some places throughout the state that this established mitted, except as otherwise provided in this act. new values of mountain land and wssteland, and I do (c) Any person signing an acknowledgment pursuant not think this was the original intention of our preroga- to subsection (a) shall receive a certified copy of the ti\., that we extended to the commjss~on. report filed with the commission by the game protector concerning the offense committed by that person. The Now if we increase this again to $200, I think we are copy of the report shall be sent to the offender by certi- again letting these prices in what they may offer for fied mail within ten days of receipt of the report by the cornmissLon. lands establish new values-and a 100-percent increase in a lot of cases-that would he established on lands ~~~~,jsee.2, page 2, line 11, by striking out v2,0 and inserting: 3. that are for sale. The State Game Commission has sizable landholdings in Pennsylvania, and I do not believe that On the question, for the small amount that they give to the con~munities Will the House agree to the amendments? in lieu of taxes, it is in the bcst interests of these com- The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman munities for up these lands. from Mercer, Mr. Wilt. I do not touch any part of a problem that the com- Mr. R. W. WILT. Mr. Speaker, I believe these are mi~sionhas which is to buy at higher than allowable agreed to. All it does is ask that whenever a citation is c"~tsf0rrights-of-way, straightening out of other lands given by a warden and the copy is to the that they have. I merely touch the contiguous lands, that a copy a]so he given to the defendant, which I do not think should he circumvented from the limitaiions, and I would ask support oC my amendment. On the question recurring, Will the House agree to the amendments? The SPEAKER The Chair recognizes the gentleman Amendments were agreed to. from Elk, Mr. Renwick. Mr. RENWICK. Mr. Speaker, I rise in opposition to On the question, the amendment proposed by Mr. Dreibelbis of Centre the House agree to the as amended On third County, It me of the amendment that was pre- consideration? sented here by Mr. Zeller a little bit ago that gutted a Mr. DREIBELBIS requested and obtained unanimous whole bill. Thal is exactly what Mr. Dreibelbis' amend- consent to offer the following amendments, which were ment does, It cuts the bill out, I think if read: gentleman disagrees with the bill, he should vote "no" ". Amend Title, page 1, lines 4 and 5, by striking out rather than present an amendment that would cut the ~ncreasingthe maximum purchase price Per acre the ivhole bill into nothing, and this is exactly what he does. commission may pay for land AND Amend Sec. 1 (Sec. 903), page 1, line 16, by striking The bill itself is a good hill, and I think what we out the bracket before "one" should do is resolve ourselves to the fact that land, as you Amend Sec. 1 (Sec. 9031, Page 1, line 16, by striking out "1 two hundred dollars" and I know, is getting to a point where it costs money. ~~~~d set, 1 (set, g03), page 2, lines 2 to 4, by strjk- NOW to restrict the Game Commission to $100 an acre I ihg out "SHALL BE AUTHORIZED TO PURCHASE IN- think is wrong in this day and agc. We have gut to find TERIOR HOLDINGS OF" in line 2, all of line 3, and some way that these people are going to he able to huy "GAME LANDS," in line 4 land. Let us suppose our forefathers, way back 20 or 30 On the question, years ago, mould have done the same thing that he is Will the House agree to the amendments? doing. Our Game Commission wou!d not own any land at all. Other states look at us and they envy us because The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman we have land to hunt and to fish on. we have land that from Centre, Mr. Dreihelbis. is preserved in this method because the Commonwealth Mr. DREIBELBIS. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. of P~nnsylvaniaowes it. Many a time, cvery Governor My amendments are really substantive changes in this we have over there will s!and up and he will make a hig bill in that I am attempting to delete the $200 allowable issue and a proclamaticn of h!?w wonderful it is thnt this to be paid and returning it to $100. Commonwealth of Pennsylvania owns enough land fgr The second portion of my amendment would strike, our fishermen and our sportsmen to hunt on. And this from page 2 of the bill the part that allows the com- is exactly what this bill does--eive us the right to go out mission to purchase any contiguous lands of any size for and buy land and to pay for land at its worth. After an unlimited amount of money. I think these are very all, if the Game Commission does not have the money, broad prerogatives that we are giving to the commission, it is not going to buy the land, but if it does have, we LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE should not put a collar around their neck and say, oh, notice on these people that they must tear these proper- no; stay away from that land. ties down and get them off their land or they will burn So I an, asking you people, every one of you in herc, them down. I think that is very unfair, and we ought to to vote dc:xn this amendment and, of course, support the try to restrict the broad taking and purchasing of land by hill. the Game Commission or they may he destroying some Thank you. of the image that they are trying to set up among the sportsmen. And this is not an anti-sportsmen amend- 'rhc SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman ment, because a great deal of the sportsmen in pennsyl. from Perry, Mr. Noye. vania are very much in favor of my proposal. Mr. KOYE. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in apposition.. to the amendment as well. There is no doubt about it that the amount of money that we On the question recurring, have raised this to tu purchase land is still not adequate Will the House agree to the amendments? to really boy prime land for hunting and far recreation in this state. If they can purchase land at $200 an acre, Thc yeas and nays were required by Messrs. DREI- they are still getting a bargain, and I doubt whether they BELBIS and RENWICK and were as follows: are going to get a chance to buy much at that price. As far as tine other part of the amendment is con- YEAS-55 cerned, I think the Game Commission has shown that Bellomlrd Goodman Lev1 Sehweder it is fiscally responsible in all of its dealings. Thc Bradley Greenfield Uncoh Sdrlca Hrandt Hamilton, J. H. McCaU Seltzer amount of money in their proposed surplus for the ycai Cohen Hasay McLane Smith. L. is a good figure which shows sound fiscal management, Devertv Hayes. S. E. Menhorn Spencer Dieario Hepford Milliron Stahl and I do not helievc that thzy are going to recklessly Donlhrowsld Hill Moehlmann Stout purchase land at any price unless they feel the land is Doyle Hutchinson. A. Myers Wagner definitely worth it, and I think we should defeat the Dreibelbl. HutcNnson. W. O'Brien W-BE* Fisehu Katz O'DonneU Westerberg ;:mcndmcnt and pass the bill the way it is. myer Kernlck O'Keefe YOh Gallen LaMarca Perti Zealtars Getsler Lederer Ritter Zeuer The SPEAKER. The Chair recognircs the gentleman Giliesple Letterman RomanelU from Centre, Mr. Dreiheibis. Mr. DREIBELBIS. I wonder if I could ask for a hriei interrogation of my hunting partner from Elk, Mr. Rcn Abraham George Miller. M. E. Shone wick. Anderson. J. E Giammsreo Miller. M. E., Shelhama The SPEI?I

LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE

------On the question recurring, ment", we put in a romma and the words "as required W11l the House agree to the blll as amended on third for members by section 5 1". consideration? Mr. SALVATORE requested and obtained unanimous The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman rrom Philadelphia, Mr. Rappaport. convent to offer the following amendments, which were read: Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, I really do not under- stand this amendment. All I can see that it does is Amend Bill, page !, by inserting between lines 9 and 3n. strike out a section which is procedural, stating that it I": Section 1. The title, act of July 10, 1968 (P. L. 316, amends the already existing Legislative Code of Ethics. No. 154). known as the "Leeislative Code of Ethics." 1s I do not understand why the gentleman wants to strike amended to read: out that particular paragraph. AXT APT Mr. SALVATORE. I do not want to strike out any- ..A. ..A. .."- I thing. I requested it from the Legislative Reference Establishing a rode of ethics for the General Assembly, B~~~~~,and this is the way they sent it down to me, its officers and cmploycs; and providing certaln rc- quirements for candidates to the General ~~~~~bl~,Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, I am not responsible and providing remedies for its enforcement and penal- for the Legislative Reference Bureau. I would be grate- ties. ful- Amend Sec. l, page l, lines 10 through 12, by striking Mr. SALVATORE. Which amendment do you have in out all of lines 10 and 11. and "Ethics."" in line 12. and1 front of mu, Mr. S~eaker? inserting: Mr. RAPPAPORT: I have one marked "Salvatore-" Seaion 2. Clauses (5) and (6) of section 3, Mr. SALVATORE. I have two amendments. On the question, Mr. RAPPAPORT. The first amendment we acce~ted. Will the House agree to the amendments? Mr. SALVATORE. Right. Mr. RAPPAPORT. This one refers to page 1. It starts The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman at the top, Bill, page inserting between from Philadelphia, Mr. Salvatore. lines Y and 10". Mr. SALVATORE. Mr. Spcakcr, the first amendment SALVATORE, That is the one we accepted, right? is corrective language that was broughi to my attention RAPPAPORT, No; that is not the one by the sponsors of the bill. They neglected to put in I accepted the other one, "providing rr:rtain requirements for candidates to the Mr. SALVATORE. Well, then you accepted both of General rksicmbly," and we do just that. in the iirst amendment. Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, I was handed two I do no1 think we will have any iipposition. amendments. One refers to amending on page 9, line 24. Thc SPdAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentlemar That amendment is accepted. from Philadelphia, Mr. Rappaport. Mr. SALVATORE. All right. Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, I do not have thi: Mr. RAPI'APORT. I am asking the gentlrman to ex- ameni!mcnt br?fore me. I would he very grateIul if plain the other amendment, because on quick perusal could bc provided with a copy. I frankly do not understand what either hr. or the The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman, Mr. Salvatore, im- Legislative Reference Bureau is doing. mediately furnish Mr. Rappaport with a copy of thc Mr. SALVATORE. Well, the amendment that you are -.nrn~nrlm"nl7. . . .. - .. . -. . . . cuestionine is to the definition in the title: "AN ACT Establishing a code of ethics for the General Assembly. ?h: Chair recognizes the gentleman from Philadelphia, its officers and employes; and providing certain require- Mr. Rappaport. ments for candidates to the General Assembly . . . ." I1 Mr. RAPPAPORT. This amendment is accepted, Mr. is not in the title. There is nothing in the title of this Speaker. bill that savs anvthine about the candidates. Mr. RAPPAPORT. -~r.Speaker, perhaps the gentle- On the question recurring, man could explain to us the next three lines of his Will the House agree to the amendments? amendment. Amendments were agreed to. Mr. SALVATORE. I do no? change- anything in the On the question recurring, next three lines. Will the House agree to the bill as amended on third Mr. RAPPAPORT. You are strikina out three liner. ronsider;rtion? Perhaps the gentleman could tell us why he wants to Mr. SALVATORE requested and obtained unanimcus strike out those three lines which is the parazraph that conscut to ofIer the following amendment, which \-:ar just says another act is amended. read: Mr. SALVATORE. I yield to Mr. Yohn on that. Amend Sec. 3. (Src. 5.1), page 9, line 24, by inserting after u~~~~~~~~~,,:, as required for members by section The SPEAKER. Thc Chair recognizes the gentlrman 5.1, from Montgomery, Mr. Yohn. Mr. YOHN. Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could shed some On the question, Wil! the House agree ta the amendment? light on this. I think what Mr. Salvatore is trying to do is that the question was raised this morning informally The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentlemar as to whether ar not the title of the act wnuld suf- from Phi!adelphia, Mr. Salvatore. ficiently give notice to candidates for the General A!:- Mr. S41,VATOIZE. Mr. Spealrrr, all this amendmen semhly that they were subject to some of the provisions does is that on page 9, line 24, after the word "state. i of the act. LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE October 16,

What he is attempting to do is to amend the title of RECONSIDERATION OF VOTE ON PART I1 OF the nresent existing- Code of Ethics to include a referencf YOIIN AMENDMENTS TO HOUSE BILL No. 1590 to candidates so those candidates wlll he put on notice Mr. YOHN moved that the vote by which Part I1 of that they are subject to the provisions of the act insofar h~sfirst set of amendments was defeated on Wednesday, as they are required to file the financial disclosure state- October 16, 1975, he reconsidered. ment. Mr. WESTERBERG seconded the motion. Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, I understand what the gentleman from Montgomery is referring to. I do On the question, not understand the last three lines of that amendment Will the House agree to the motion? proposed by the gentleman from Philadelphia. Perhaps Motion was agreed to. that could he explained to me as well. On the question recurring, Mr. YoHN. I am afraid only the Legislative Ref- will the H~~~~ agree to Part I1 of the Yohn amend- erence Bureau can exwlain that, althou~,hit amears .. to ,L'~,LLa: me that all they are doing is eliminating the reference in fhe.. . . ewi-tine ...... section 1 vour hill to the-ieeislative Codel The SPEAKER. If You have the amendment in front if " ~~- ~--- of Ethics and accepting- - that by inference, having just 1 of you, it is marked amendment No. 1 and it reads as stated what the act is that is being amended in the new follows: section 1 that is set forth in the Salvatore amendment. Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 5.11, page 7, line 14, by Mr. RAPPAPORT. Apparently, Mr. Speaker, this is striking out "two thousand five hundred dollars another great triumph for the Legislative Reference ($2,500)." and inserting: five hundred dollars ($500). Bureau. ( The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Montgomery, AMENDMENTS DIVIDED .Mr- - . Vnhn- -... . . Mr. YOHN. RAPPAPORT, Might I ask that the amendment Mr. Speaker, the reason I am asking that be divided and that it be divided down to the words this vote be reconsidered is that I found in discussing it ',and If it is so divided, I can accept one over the lunch hour that there were some m~mherswho were perhaps confused that this related ta the disclosure part of it and not accept the other. of amounts of income. It does not do that. It only re- It 's al' right with me, Speaker' lates to disclosure of sources of income and which sources When I asked the Legislative Reference Bureau to draw ,,,,+ ,,,,+ "" ho-" the amendment, I made reference to lines Under the bill as proposed by Mr. Rappaport, sources through 12, so it makes no difference to me. in excess of $2,500 wou!d be required to be disclosed, The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman, Mr. Rappaport. whereas under this amendment and under the bill that please again indicate where he wants to divide this? we passed almost unanimously last vear. all sources above After the word "penalties"? $500 would he listed. Again I repent, it is just sources: Mr. RAPPAPORT. Yes, sir. it is not the amounts of those incomes. The SPEAKER. All material after that word is to he Now I think that there are several reasons why this treated as a separate amendment? is important, and I think that if you would discuss this Mr. RAPPAPORT. That is correct, sir. with general members of the public, they would feel that The SPEAKER. That will he the last three lines of amounts of $1,000, $1,500, 92.000 would he significant this amendment? amounts and therefore should he disclosed if there is a Mr. RAPPAPORT. That is correct, sir. potential conflict involved. In addition, I think that if we leave it at that $2,500 PART I1 OF AMENDMENTS WITHDRAWN level, it would be very easy for somebody who is trying to hide something to perhaps divide up his source of Mr. SALVATORE. Would the gentleman yield to me income hv use of cornorate or other leealU~ mechanisms~--~ ~ and~~-~.. for a second? therefore perhaps avert the intent of the hill. So I think I will withdraw the second part of that amendment. that this amendment is a very critical one. The SPEAKER. All right. The gentleman withdraws I think that the hill as we passed it this morning is a the second part of the amendment which consists of the good step, hut it is only a partial step. I think that this last three lines of the amendment? is a critical amendment. If this amendment is accepted, Mr. SALVATORE. Right. we will he then making the full effort that we should be making in the area of financial disclosure, and I On the question recurring, think that all of us should consider this as something Will the House agree to the amendment? that would he extremely important and something that Amendment was agreed to. we should he supporting. Thank you. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Montgomery, Mr. Yohn. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Mr. YOHN. Mr. Speaker, I move to reconsider the from Philadelphia, Mr. Rappaport. vote by which section 2 of the first amendment which I Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speakcr, I agree with the presented this morning was defeated. gentleman, this is an important amendment. We are not The SPEAKER. Has the gentleman submitted a recon- arguing about the principle of disclosure hut arguing sideration motion in writing? Will the gentleman sub- about just where the threshold should he, an issue upon mit the original and a copy to the desk? which reasonable men can differ. 1975. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE 3077

Perhaps $2.500 is too much. I definitely feel, however, I NOT VOTING-10 that $500 is too Iittlc. Five hundred dollars is about $10 Butera Mecraw Valicentl Wslsh. T. P. a week. This applies not only to the member but to his Davies Milanovieh Venn Wilt. R. W. spouse and his minor children. That means that if the Gring Sulli~an child of one of the men~hershas a newspaper route and So the question was determined in the negative and makes more than $10 a wcck out of it, each member will Part I1 of the Yohn amendments was not agreed to. have to disclose that they indeed do have an income from the "Patriot Star" or whatever the name of the The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman newspaper is. Or if your daughter is doing baby-sitting from Montgon~ery,Mr. McGinnis. The Chair understands for the president of the local utility company, that is go- that the gentleman is going to withdraw his amendments ing to have to be reported as well, and then, of course, but desires to make a statement. Is that correct, sir? yuu are going to have a real problem voting on utility Mr. McGINNIS. I am going to offer the amendment. legislation. On the question recurring, I am not making fun of it. I think that $500 is just Will the House agree to the bill as amended on third too small of a figure. It becomes dc minimis, for it is consideration? too insignificant to worry about. Perhaps the Senators Mr. McGINNIS recruested and obtained unanimous con- in their wisdom will find a happy medium, hut I do sent to offer the following amendments, which were read: think that $500 is much too little. Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 5.1), page 8, line 28, by striking Thank you, Mr. Speaker. out "attorney" Amend Sec. 3 (Sec. 5.1). oaee 9., hv- insertine between On the question recurring, lines 16 and 17: (10) If the member or candidate is an attorney whose Will the House agree tn Part I1 of the Yohn amend- prlnclpal source of income is from practicing law, the ments? names of all clients of the law firm. On the question, The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. YOHN Will the House agree to the amendments? end RAPPAPORT and were as follows: The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Monteomerv.., ", Mr. McGinnis. Mr. McGINNIS. Mr. Speaker, I did not offer this Abraham Gallcn Levl Schweder Bellomini Geesey Manmillrr Seirlea amendment in a frivolous way. This morning as I grew Beren Gillette Mn'ue Seltzer more angry and more angry at watching the shadowbox- Berson Gleason Mebus Snane Bittle Greenfield Miller. M. E. Sirianni ing that was going on, I looked over at the fourth estate Brsndt Grieco Miller. M. E.. Jr. Smith. L. and they were lapping it up like milk. Bradley Halverson Milllron Spencer Burns Hamilton. J. H. Moehlmann Stahl When I have to disclose the income of my wife and Cesrsr Hasay Musto Stapleton Cimlni Haskell Noye Taddonio my children and the mortgage on the boat, I think it is Crawtord Hayes. D. S. O'Brien Taylor an invasion of my privacy. I finally got a little fed up Cumberland Hayes. S. E. O'Connell Toll DeMedlo Hepford O'Donnell Turner with these do-gooders, and I figured I would make them Deverter Hill Pancoast Ustynoski disclose a few things. But I did it in a fit of anger, Mr. Diearlo Hopbs Parker. H. S. Weidner Speaker, and I have thought about it, and I wish to Die- Itkin Perri Westerberg Dininnl Katr Pitts Whittlesey withdraw my amendment because two wrongs do not Dombrowskl Kelly. J. B. Polite Wilson make a right. Dorr Kistler Pyles Worrilow Eckensherger Klingaman Reed Wright I am not chicken, but I want to say, sir, that it is not Fischer Knepper Ryan Yohn fair to make the attorneys reveal the names of their Fisher Koller Salvatore Zearfoss Foster. A. Lederer Seheaffer Zord clients any more than it is to make my wife reveal her Foster. W. Lehr income. Now I would like to make a motion to send this hill back to the Rules Committee. Anderson, J. H. Glammareo MeLane Rugglero Arthurs Cillespie Menhorn Saloom I AMENDMENTS WITHDRAWN Barber~ ~ ~~ Gleeson Miscevich Bennett Goodman Morris Berlin Green Mrkonie Blackwell Hammock Mullen. M. P. Bonetto Hutchinson. A. Mullen Brunner Hutchinson. W. Myers CaDuto Irvir Novak cohen Johnson. J. O'Keefe Tnyoun Cole Kelly. A. P. Oliver Thomas The SPEAKER. The gentleman moves that House hill Cowell Kernick Perry TreUo No. 1590 be recommitted to the Committee on Rules. Davis, D. M, Kawalyshyn Petrarca Vroon DiDonatO -.....unrce Pievsky Wagner Doyle LaMarca Pratt Wansac. On the question, Dreibelbls Laudadio Prendergaet Wargo Will the House agree to the motion? Englehart Laughlin Rappaport Whelan Fawcett Letterman Renninger Wilt, W. W. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Fee Lincoln Renwiek wojdak Flaherty Lynch Rhodes Yahner frcm Philadelphia, Mr. Rappaport. FTyer Manderino Richardson Zeller Gallagher MeCall Rieg~r twirl Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, and I may he out of GarLia Meclatchy Ritter order, hut I ask the indulgence of the House. GeiSler McGinnis Rornanelll Pineman, George MeIntyre Ross speaker I thank the gentleman from Montgomery, Mr. MrGin- 3078 LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL--HOUSE October 16, nis. I, too. have some of the feelines that Mr. McGinnis 1 NOT VOTING-10 has, and that is why I argued as Idid this morning for Miianovhh Tayoun Wash. T. P relevant disclosure. I really do not think it is anybody's ~~~i~~ Ross Vaueenti Wojdak business what my income may be or what I may have Maraw Sullivan unless the Commonwealth is involved in that particular So the question was determined in the negative and the source of income, and that is what I was talking about I motion was not agreed to. this morning.

I think it is a nositive asset to the~ ~ Elouse to have On the question recurring, businessmen such as Mr. McGinnis as members, and we Will the House agree to the bill as amended on third must encourage more of them rather than fewer of them consideration? to he here. And I think that the votes this morning. Bill as amended was agreed to. well-intentioned and very sincere on both sides, showed that at least eight- more - with me 1 The SPEAKER. This bil has been consldercd on three did not agree with me on most votes. different days and agreed to and is now on final passage. I would oppose the motion to send this back to the The question is, Shall the bill pass finally? Rules Committee. This is not a perfect bill. In some ways perhaps it does go too far as it now stands. There The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the lady from are many people here who believe it does not go far Montgomery, Mrs. Fawcett. enough as it now stands. But on the whole it is a fairly Mrs. FAWCETT. Mr. Speaker, I would like to inter- good hill and 1 would hope more workable than most of rogate Mr. Rappaport on section 5.1, page 7. the legislation that we pass. Mr. Speaker. I would oppose The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Philadelphia, the motion to recommit. Mr. Rappaport, consent to interrogation? Mr. RAPPAPORT. Yes, Mr. Speaker. On the question recurring, The SPEAKER. The lady may proceed. Will the House agree to the motion? Mrs. FAWCETT. Mr. Sneaker. I have mixed emotions The yeas and nays were required by M~~~~~.M~GINNIS about section 5.1. We female spouses sometimes have the and RAPPAPORT and were as follows. experience-and, personally, I have had the experience- of having my spouse feel that it is an invasion of privacy

YEAS--43 for~- him---~.. ?n.. have.-~ ~ to reveal his investments simnlv." because a Anderson. J. H. Grleco McGlnnis Salvatore I am member of the House. On the other hand, I have a Brandt Gring Mullen. M. P. Schweder feeling there are many spouscs on the other side who Bmner Hamilton. J. H. O'Rricn Siriennl would be glad to know how much their spouses had in- Bums Hasay O'Connell Stahl Caputo ill Paneoart Thoma vested, hecause it has been my experience, in some in- Cimlnl Hutchlnson, A. Perri Turner stances at least, that spouses are completely unaware of Cumberland Ti,~tchinson.W. Petrnrea Yahnel Dietz Johluon, J. Polite Whelan the worth of the family. Dreibelbh Katz Pr~ndergast Wilt. w. W. However, I do have a question about invasion of privacy Fisher Kistler Pyles Wright and the right of the individual as far as this section is Goodman LaMarea Saloom concerned. Do vou believe that this would stand un to a NAYS-149 constitutional test? Abraham Geesey MeClatchv Schmitt I Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker. I have many of the Arthum Geisler McCue Sciriea emotions of the lady from Montgomery, and we have been Barber George Mclntyre Seltzer Bellomin1 Glammarco MeLane Shane talking about this all morning. I think that there is no Bennett Gillesple Mebus Shelhamer constitutional right to be a member of this House. I think Beren Glllette Menhom Shelton Berlin Glea~on Miller. M. E. Shuman that it is a privilege. We all are under certain inhibitions Benm Gleeron Miller, M. E., Jr. Shupnik in our public and private lives because of our member- Bittle Green Milliron Smith. E. ship here, and that is one of the burdens of office. And I Blackwell Greenfield Miscevieh Smith. L. Ronetto Halvenon Mueillmam Spencer think it would stand a constitutional challenge. Bradley Hammock Morris Stapleton Cessar Haskell Mrkonle stout Mrs. FAPJCETT. Mr. Speaker, I must, disagree with the Cohen Hayes, D. S. Mullen Taddonio gentleman from Philadelphia. I personally elected to run Cole Hayes. S. P. Muto Taylor fnr the House. My husband agreed to my doing it, but Hepford Myers Toll Honkins Novak Trello he is not involved in my business here. And what would UatynosM one do in the case of a spouse refusing to the invasion of vann Vrmn privacy? I think there is a ronstitutional questicn. Waener Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Wamacz wargo Weidner The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the lady from Kolter Plttr Westerberg Susquehanna, Miss Sirianni. ~oyie Whittlesey Eckensberger Kusse Rappaport Wilson Miss SIRIANNI. Mr. Speaker, I do not have a spouse, Englehart Laudadlo Reed Wilt, R. W. and I have an objection. If this House asked for me to Fawcett~~.. Lsuehlin Renninaer~ ~~~...,.. Worrilow disclose what I made after I became a member, it would Fee ~ed&&~ Renwlck Yohn Fischer Lehr Rhodes zearfm be a different matter, but whatever I have I made hefore I F1sherty Letterman Richardson Zeller got here--or God only knows I rould not afford to be Foster. A. Lev1 Rleeer Zord Foster, W. Lincoln Ritter Zwlkl here-and I think it is very unfair for this House to ex- Fryer Lmch Romanell1 pect me to disclose what I earned or might have received Gallaehn Manderino Ruggiero Flneman, through my parents or any other way at any other time, Gallen Manmiller Ryan Speaker Gards McCall Scheaffer spouse or no spouse. LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE

The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the minority the information called for here. If they are so estranged whip. that they are not filing joint income tax returns, then Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, I just received a phone call perhaps they are exempt. I can think of no other test, from Mrs. McGinnis. She said she has no objection to Mr. Speaker. putting on the record her principal source of income. It is Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, there have been several Pat's wallet after he goes to bed. amendments made to this bill, and this question which The SPEAKER. That is like having an investment in a has just been posed and other questions seem to me to gusher in Texas. need a little study. Mr. RYAN. And she said, "That does apply to $5,000 We are all aware of the fact that this is a House bill and over. doesn't it7" and that the Senate has alreadv recessed until November 17. While I appreciate the fact that this bill could now The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentlemanib, considered with'the amendments adonted todav and . ~~ from Allegheny, Mt. Caputo. tomorrow, I would request, for the benefit of me and Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman, the other members who might be interested, a chance to sti~dy sponsor of the bill, agree to further interrogation? this bill after it is in print and to address ourselves to The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Philadelphia several questions, the answers to which seem to be in a Mr. Rappaport, consent to further interrogation? cloudy area. Mr. RAPPAPORT. Yes, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. MOTION TO TABLE Mr. Mr. 'peaker3 under the same section Mr. CAPUTO. I would, therefore, move that this bill that Mrs. Fawceit brought to the attention of the House, be labled at this time until 17, section 5.1, page 7, there is a phrase on line 7, "unless otherwise noted." Will the sponsor explain what that MOTION AMENDED means? The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman move to have the Mr. RAPPAPORT. I think that refers to the specific bill placed upon the final passage postponed calendar so disclosure that must be made if the Commonwealth is . ~t can be printed with the amendments in it? involved. Mr. CAPUTO. I will amend my motion, Mr. Speaker. Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, that is not very much of an explanation. On the question, Each member is required to file a statement with the Will the House agree to the motion? Secretary of the Senate or the Chief Clerk, as appropriate. Motion was agreed to. "The economic interest statement shall contain the iol- lowine- information concerning the member, hi* or brr The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman spouse and children under eiihteen years of age, unless "Om Mr. otherwise noted . . . ." What does that mwn, "un!~s- Mr. GALLEN. Mr. Speaker, I would hope that the otherwise noted"? Speaker would be a little bit more on the ball and not Mr. RAPPAPORT. I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. I was allow Mr. Rappaport to give curbstone opinions but to quite cryptic with the gentleman and obviously I was not them me. clear enough. Certain information has to be specifically Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker. might I remind the provided. For instance, you might list under of lgeotleman that my advice and legal opinions are worth income" real estate investments. Assuming for a moment 1 precisely the fee that I am paid them. that your sole real estate investment was a property which was rented by the Liquor Control Board £01 a State store, CONSIDERATION OF HOUSE BILI, No. 12 that must be specifically listed because the Common- RESUMED wealth is involved. If that was your only real estate in- vestment, you would not have to list real estate invest- 0" the question recurring, ments as a source of income because it is otherwise noted, Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration? Mr. CAPUTO. Does the phrase then mean unless other- Mr. SHUMAN requested and obtained unanimous con- wise noted in the bill which creates the various exemp- Writ to offer the following amendments, which urere read: tions? Amend Title, page 1, line 11, by removing the comma

Mr. - RAPPAPORT. ~ That is mv understanding of the after "machines" and inserting: and for exclusion of cer- phrase, Mr. Speaker. tain ice cream sales from the tax. Amend Bill, page 2, by inserting between lines D and 7: CAPUTO, Speaker, an additional question: Section 2. Subclause (iii) of clause (29) of section 203 Assuming that a member is separated but not divorced of the act is amended to read: from his suouse-his or her suouse-and is not able to Section 204. Exc!nsions from Tax.-The tax imposed by provide the information concerning the spouse's income, I"$@? 202 shall not be imposed upon or assuming a member is separated from his children or and beverages for her children under 18 years of age and has no idea nor can he determine their income or economic interests, is he excused in any way from making a report? respect* * * to- Mr. RAPPAPORT. Mr. Speaker, the gentleman from (iii) Food and beverages (except when purchased at, Allegheny. with his usual perspicacity, has pointed out from a school or church in the ordinary course of something that, frankly, did not occur to the main span- ities of such organization) when the purchase price of sor of this bill. As a very curbstone opinion, I would the total transaction is more than ten cents (lo$), when suggest to the gentleman that if the member and his or purchased (i),, from persons engaged in the buiiness of catering, or (11) from persons engaged in the business of her estranged spouse are filing joint income tax returns, operating restaurants, cafes, lunch counters, private and then perhaps they should be under a duty of revealing social clubs, taverns, dining cars, hotels and other eating LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE October 16, places. For the purposes of this subclause (iii), ice cream laughs, but that is probably a very small number. And purchased for consumption off the premises irrespective we have about 11 million people in Pennsylvania, so we of from whom or where purchased, shall be excluded from .re talking about 55 million ice cream cones. That is con- the tax. For the purpose of this snbclause (iii), beverages shall not malt and brewed beverages and spiri. ~ervative,right? And we are talking about roughly 2 tuous and vinous liquors, but shall include soft drinks, Cents sales tax on a cone. We are talking about $1 mil- and the price of such soft drinks shall be considered to- lion in sales tax. That is on the basis of five cones a year gether with the price of other beverages and food in f,, the average per determining whether the purchase price of the total trans- action* * * is more than ten cents (lot). Now I take exception to the fiscal note that says that a $1-million loss to the Commonwealth is minimal. From Amend 2, page 2, line 7, by striking nut tG2,,,and inserting: 3. my assessment, I cannot support this amendment. Amend Sec. 3, page 2, line 14, by striking out "3." and inserting: 4. On the question recurring, Will the House agree to the amendments? On the question, Will the House agree- to the amendments? The yeas and navs were required by Messrs. SHUMAN and LINCOLN and were as follows: The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman 1 from Franklin, Mr. Shuman. Mr. SHUMAN. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will try to Anderson. J. H. Seltzer be brief. Arthum Shelhamer When I appeared at the microphone this morning, it Bellomlnl Shelton Shuman seemed that we did not have a fiscal note. I think all !$gztt sin& the members have a fiscal note now that indicates my aerlin Smith. E. amendment has an impact that is minimal, minute. Bittle Smith. L. Bradley Spencer What my amendment does-and I will be very short- ~~~~dt 8tlbl is that when ice cream is purchased for consumption off Brunnff Stapleton Bums Sulllvan the premises, irrespective of from whom or where pur- Taddonlo chased, it shall be exempt from the sales tax. In other Clmlnl Taylor Thomas words, if you go to a grocery store now to take a pint of ::FMord Toll ice cream home for consumption, you do not pay a sales Cumberland ReUo Turner tax. If you go to High's ice cream store and get a pint of g$:hf6 M. ustunoskl ice cream to take home for consumption, you do not pay ~~~erter Venn Vrwn the sales tax. But if you go to the Dairy Maid next door ::;:&,, Warner and get a pint of ice cream to take home, you pay the ~~~b~~- Weldner Dorr Westerberg sales tax. Whelan All my amendment does in that respect is say you do :zz&berga Kolter Pyles whittlcsey not pay the sales tax. Everything is even Stephen, fair Faweett Kowalynhyn Rappaport Wllson Wllt. R. W. and bipartisan and nondiscriminatory. Fischer KUSS~ Renwiek Foster. A. T.aMar~a-~~~~~ Ritter worrf1ow We "assed this amendment last session and it went over ~,t,,w, Laudadlo Ruggtero Wright to the-Senate at the end of the session and it did not get LaughUn Ryan Yahner Lehr Saloom Yahn through over there. Lev1 Salvatore wartoss Thank you very much. Gelsler Lynch Seheaffer Zeller George Manmlller Schmitt Zord MeCall schweder ZwIkI The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman g::Fg McClatchy from Fayette, Mr. Lincoln. Mr. LINCOLN. Mr. Speaker, I request a negative vote on this amendment. Abraham Flaherty Mebus Shane Berson Gallagher Menhorn Shupnlk The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman ~onetto Geesey Myers stout from Allegheny, Mr. Itkin. Caputo Hutchinson. W. Nov* Wmaca Cohen Irvls Oliver wargo Mr. ITKIN. Mr. Speaker, would the sponsor of the c,,,~ Itkin Perry Wilt. W. W, amendment consent to brief interrogation? Dlcarlo Letterman matt Wojdak DiDonato Llneoln Remlnger The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Franklin, Mr. Drelbelbi. Manderino Romanelll Fineman. Shuman, consent to interrogation? Englehart McLane Sdrles Speaker Mr. SHUMAN. Yes, but I am no sales tax expert. Fisher The SPEAKER. The gentleman may proceed. NOT VOTING-21 Mr. ITKIN. Mr. Speaker, I would be interested to Hammock Mis~e~ieh know from the svonsor. in his judgment,. . how many ice ~~~~kweuJohnson. J. Mullen Lederer Reed cream cones would an individual, on the average, consume McGraw Rhades in a vear? Milanovlch Richsrdron Mr. SHUMAN. Oh, I would guess 5 a week, 250. Giammarco Mr. ITKIN. Mr. Speaker, I really thought those dairies so the question was determined in the affirmative and were hurting. Lhe amendments were agreed to. Mr. Speaker, my question might appear to have an aura of frivolity, but it was not for that purpose. If you make On the question, a simple assumption, which could be an underestimate, let Will the Mnnsc agree to the hill as arnended on third 11s just assume that the average person in our Common- consideration? wealth consumes Five cones a year. All right, everyone Bill as amended was agreed to. LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE

The SPEAKER. This hill has been considered on three The penny or the amount of $409,000 which has been different days and agreed to and is now on final passagc. attached to this bill will hc money that rightfully be- The question is, Shall the bill pass finally? longs to the owners of the vending machine companies, and they will realize that $400,000. But it is $400,000 that The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the lady from they should have been realizing in the past. Allegheny, Mrs. Kernick. ~Mrs.KERNICK. But we arc thzn turning $400,000 over ilks. KERNICIT. Mr. Speaker, I would like the con- to private interests instead of to the state. We are losing sent of the sponsor to be interrogated. almost half a million dollars. In this casc, a penny saved The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman from Fayette, Mr. is a penny earned, but it is earned for the vendins l.incoln, consent to interrogation? machine company at a loss to the state and the taxpayers. Mr. LINCOLN. As long as it is on this bill. Mr. LINCOLN. I dispute the point that we are taking The SPEAKER. The lady may proceed. it from the Commonwcalth. The point is the Common- Mrs. KERNICK. Mr. Speaker, if I buy a pack of wealth did not deserve it in the first place. The law is cigarettes at the drugstore, I pay 50 cents, and if I pur- set up in a manner which is causing these vending chase a pack of cigarettes at a coin-operated machine, it machine operators to pay more than the 6-percent sales costs me 65 cents, leaving a lecway of 15 cents. In that tax which is what the law asks for. 15 cents, I imagine the vendor includes his cost of opera- Pars. ICERNICK. My point is that there is a margin of tion, his profit, and his taxes. Is that not so? difference on what is paid for a pack of cigarettes-I Mr. LINCOLN. I guess you could assume that, yes. will stick to the pack of cigarettes--uf 15 cents- Mrs. RERNICK. And the tax in the vending machine . , Mr. LINCOLN. I do not think we should use cigarelles. IS 4 cents. hasically because there is no tax being collected on them. Mr. LINCOLN. Excuse me one second. I do not smoke Use a candy bar, sandwich or another item. and I am a little unfamiliar with the figures you are talk- Mrs. KERNICK. All right, anything you want to use. ing about. Somebody over here said there is no sales But somcone is still going to earn a penny that they do tax on cigarettes, so I do not know. not have now. Mrs. KERNICK. I thought we were talking about a sales tax on cigarettes. Do you know for a fact that the vending machine com- LINCOLN, No, This is on items, panies are losing money because of this sales tax? Mrs. KERNICK. A]] right, forget that then. BU~ Mr. LINCOLN. I do not think you can attribute finan- the additional penny that the coin-operators will receive cial loss of a business to orlc particulnr portion of that because we are reducing it to 6 cents on a dollar, will huiiners or one particular expense such as the sales tax. that go to the vending company or will that go hack tci I would think that their margin of profit is at such a the consumers on the pack of cigarettes as they obtain it minimal rate that thot little bit of money we are taking from the machine? Or on a candy bar or whatever? from them, when we should not be, could he causing Mr. LINCOLN. ~r.speaker, one of the probleins that them some problems within their industry, whereby they we are trying to correct is that the vending machines are not ahle lo purchase new machines and they are not are operated on increments of 5 cents, and to increase far able to provide greater sprvice to the consumers they a 1-cent tax, they have to go up a nickel. And what 3"s serving. they do-it would he more profit to them-is the first Mrs. KERNICK. You say that you think their profit thing you think of. But it is not in reality because it is minimal but do you know that for a fact? causes them to lose business because they price them. The SPEAKER. For what purpose does the gentleman, selves out of the market. Mr. Million, rise? They have tried in the past to have the penny machines Mr. MILLIRON. Mr. Speaker, would Mr. Lincoln yield attached to the vending machines and they have proved [Jn that question? to be totally unworkable. There were problems with The SPEAKER. Will the gentleman, Mr. Lincoln, them that would cause inconvenience to the consumer; yield? the consumer did not like them; and the cost of handling Mr. LINCOLN. Yes. the coins and storing coins placed an additional burden on the vendor. And also. there is a shortage of pennies, The SPEAICER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman So that made that unworkable and they have to go in 5- Blair, Mr. ccnt increments. And the higher. they raise their ."rice. . Mr. MILLIRON. I had not wanted to get into names or the higher thc percentage of tax is, too. facts or figures, Mr. Speaker, but one of the largest vend- &T~~,ICERNICK, I am a little bit older than you and ing companies in the state is Servomation, which has I remember when the cigarette companies used to put various local!y run operations, one of which is in my the pcnnies on the side of the packs as you got them out county, Blair County. I went over their figures with of the machines. ~~t my question to you is: where them several months ago when this bill was in the Finance will this penny go that we are taking from the con- Committee. sumer to give to the cigarette company? Now this figure is phenomenal; it is hard to believe; Mr. LINCOLN. I think the first thing that you are and yet it was shown to me from the books: A company a little confused on is that when the sales tax was ini- that did over $700,000 wurth of business last year, after tiatpd, it was initiated to be a consumer tax, and the taxes, showed a $6,000 piofit. This was mainly because situation that cxists for the vending machine companies of various things, because of inflation. We are not blam- at this time is that they are forced to pay that tax on ing it on the sales tsx; I am not blaming it on the sales the gross sales prior to putting the product into the tn:;. I am sure there are certain areas where they have machine. In effect, they are paying the tax because cut down-personnel, new equipment, various things. they cannot collect it from the consumer-purchaser. What I am getting at, just to answcr your question, is 3082 LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE Octgber 16, this: I cannot speak for the vending companies as a Mr. LINCOLN. Yes. whole, but I can speak for one of the largest in the Mr. A. C. FOSTER. Mr. Speaker, may I make a state- Common=-ealth, and there is not the windfall that every- ment at this point? body feels is being made. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman may pro- ceed. The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the lady from A, C, FOSTER, Inasmuch as we already have a Allegheny, Mrs. Kernick. 10-cent exemption, I think it is really fair to go the route Mrs. KERNICK. Mr. Speaker, may I make a few corn- that M~,~i~~~l~ is going in this bill .and impose a tax ments? on the basis of a percentage, rather than get into the The SPEAKER. The lady is in order and may proceed. battle at all, hlr-. KERNICK. 1 think we have to stop playing Santa on that basis, I think the hill is a good hill, has merit, Claus in this IIouse and doing favors for special-interest I would strongly urge the passage of IIouse bill No. 12. -.!7P",l,,S .- .. -. I am so new to the House th3t $400,000 still sounds like The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the a lot of money to me. It is not minimal and it is not gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Menhorn. peaniits, and I ask for the defeat of this bill. ?7Tr. MENHORN. Mr. Speaker, I would like to urge tlir Ilouse once axdin to defeat this hill. I think if it passes; The SPEAKER. The Chair recognizes the gentleman we are setting a very dangerous precedent. from Fayctte, Mr. Lincoln. I must agree with what Mr. Lincoln asked me under Mr. LINCOLN. Mr. Speaker, I hope that I am never questioning this morning, that everyone should be treated in this Hcuse long enough, whether it be the 3 years that fairly. If this bill were to pass, I am sure that if I wcre I have been here or the 30 years I would like to be here, a restaurant owner or had any other business in this to think that 8400,000 is not a considerable amount of state, I would be in here demanding the same privilege so money. That is why I say that the $400,000 that we arc that I could pay on a gross-receipts basis rather than on depriving this industry of is not a windfall; it is an in- 2 unit-sales-tax basis. equity in the law that causes them not to get that. We Do not let the ice cream amendment confuse you when are ni~tgiving them anything. We are allowing them you vote on this hill. Here you are talking about an the same break that every industry has had. VJe have exemption from unit sales as opposed lo an inside changi. already done this for coin-operated laundries and csr converting to gross receipts. I would urge defeat of thi-, washes. bill. These people deal mainly with factory workers or legislators, who have to eat their lunch in the hack roanl The SPEAKER Pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the gentleman Irom Mr. a lot of times--candy bars and sodas--and if we continua to force them to go up in 5-cent increments to make uri Mr. ~~II.LIEON.Mr. Speaker, first of all, in responsc for a nenny. . in tax, they are going to make more money to the gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Menhorn, perhaps from the consumer. 1- do not think that this is what it is a dangerous precedent and I hope that it is. they want. We all made light of the Shuman amendment for ice The oilIy thing they are interested in is heing treated cream. I voted for it because I think the sales tax is fairly under the tax laws. They are not looking for a regressive, and I hope this is a precedent. I hope we get we are not letting them out anythin'; they rid of the sales tax. We were promised that several years art: going to he paying the 6-percent sales tax that "0 by the Governor; instead, we got a few scattered everyone else is required to pay an the same type of exemptions. So I would hope that we would set a purchases and sales. precedent and get away from this type of regressive tax. I urould hope that House bill No. 12 will be looked Secondly, we speak of the tax as a unit tax which is upcn fiivorably by the body by a positive vote. charged on everything. This is fine at the store when the salesman or the owner can charge it directly to the ronsumer. Again, as Mr. Lincoln mentioned, this is next THE SPEAKER PRO TEMPORE (A. J. FeMcdi~! to impossible for the vending company. You cannot col- IN THE CHAIR lect the exact uercentape.-. the 2 cents:. vou. have to raise everything up to a nickel. ~h~ SPEAKEX pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the I am not here defending the profits of a company; I am gentleman from York, Mr. Foster. not here as a spokesman for the industry. But I do feel, Mr. A. C. FOSTER. Will the gentleman, Mr. Lincoln, as has been reiterated alreadv... that this comnanv.. " . this~ --- conscnt to interrogation? industry, is being discriminated against by collecting as 'The SPEAKER pro tempore. Would the gentleman, high as 10 percent and 11.2 percent on its total sales Mr. Lincoln, consent lo interrugation? when the tax was originated and intended to he at fi Mr. LINCOLN. Yes, Mr. Speaker. percent. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman may Pro- I ask mv collearues in the House to take this first step ceed. toward making the sales tax more equitable and, hope- Mr. P.. C. FOSTER. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to fully, to eliminate it totally. rlarily one point. First of all, would this bill apply 'it: coin-oprrated car washes? The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the

Mr TJNCOLN.- ~- That exemotion has already been gentleman from Centre, Mr. Dreibelbis. made, Nlr. Speaker, in a law prior to this. &Ti.. DIZEIBELBIS. Mr. Speaker, I have no objection Mi., A. C. FOSTER Yes, the ~entlemanis correct. to tvhat Mr. i\'Iil!ii.on says about the tax heing 'wy un- The stc..i:cl question, Mr. Speaker: Is there at the pres.. ra!!cctahle, but I think in making a piecemeal exemption ent lime a 10-cent exemption with respect to sales tax? such as this, we are making the situation more difficu!:. LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE

I find in this piece of legislation that it says: ". . . six cigarettes and that. I think it is fair and equitable and rii? cents of each dollar . . . collected in any such machine I really think we ought to support~ this. I - all sales which heretofore were taxable . . . ." What I The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the am really assuming then is that any sales of 10 cent5 or gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Caputo. less in the machine heretofore were not taxable, a112 Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, I rise in opposition to therefore will not now be collected under the grosc sales. this bill. We have just been faced in this state with a We must remember one thing that we should not los? disaster which is going to require money from the tax- sight of, and thal is, our sales lax, whether we like it or payers of this Commonwealth if we are going to follow not, is a bracketed tax and not a 6-percent sales tax. through with what we did in the past, I am referring Any mcrchant who collects any amount of maney charges to the damage that was caused by the floods in recent tax on the amount of thal uarticular sale. so that in mort ..._.,...w=ei%>. cases, if the sales tax bureau finds that somerinc is only In to that, in the passage of the budget this turnini: in exactly 6 percent of gross sales, there is :;:;in?- year, the Department. of R~~~~~~ was reduced in their thing wrung with his accounting system and he i?. in]- necessary appropriation, I understand, by $4.2 miilio:l. mediately subject to audit. An analysis made by the Department of Revenue in- What I am saying is that what the vendor could do dicates that this bill, before the Shuman amendment, with this piece of legislation is exclude all his 10-cent would cost the state $400,000, ~f we deprive the state and under- sales that heretofore were not taxable. There- of that $400,000, somehow we are going to have to make fore, I think it is pretty much of a windfall, even more it up to have the Department of Revenue properly admin- than what has been outlined here today. istered. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the I do not know what the cost of Mr. Shuman's amend- gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Romanelli. ment will be, but I think that Mr. Itkin probably hit IMr. ROMANELLI. Would the gentleman, Mr. Lincoln, pretty close on an estimated cost of depleted revenue, stand ior a brief interrogation? and I do not think we can stand this. The SPEAKER pro tempore. Will the gentleman, Mr. I have some bills ready to be put into the hopper to Lincoln, consent to a brief interrogation? amend the sales tax because, as one of the previous Mr. LINCOLN. I will, Mr. Speaker. speakers pointed out, we do have a classified sales tax anri ~h~ SPEAKER pro tempore, ~h~ gentleman may not a general sales tax. We have made classifications. In proceed. the last session we gave relief to housewives and to Mr. XOMANELLI. M,., speaker, have you ever pur- various senior citizens. But we cannot go on giving relief chased a soft drink from a soft drink vending machine to everybody. that makes change? I have a couple of bills ready to be introduced because Mr. LINCOLN. Yes. I believe that the industries concerned need it, but I Mr. ROMANELLI. Well, then, why cannot the vendors will nut introduce them until there is a change in the do this? If I can put a quarter in the vending machine economic climate of this Commonwealth. to get a 10-cent drink and get 15 cents change, then I am There is, for example, an obligation on the Depart- sure that the vendors can do this. ment of Revenue to collect sales tax on clothing. How- Mr. Speaker, I do not feel that the Commonwealth at ever-and I use this as an illustration-if a woman buys this time can afford either Mk. Shuman's amendment or a formal gown or a gentleman buys formal attire in :! this bill. The $400,000 that we are going to lose on this department store, they do not pay the sales tax because hill could go to pay for some of the day-care centers they it comes under the exclusion of clothing. This holds are closing in my district. true for wortswear. If purchased in a dewartment store, you do not pay the sales tax because it is listed on your The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Fayette, Mr. Lincoln. bill as clothing. But if you go to the Mister Fornlai Shop or some other place that deals only with fori~ai LINCOLN, Speaker, I feel the arguments have been presented. I think the should not wear, you pay the sales tax because formal wear is not be subjected to any more debate on my part, I would exempt from the imposition of a sales tax. The same i-; hope they can intelligently up their own minds true if You go to a sporting goods store and buy sporting iromwhat we have discussed in last or attire. You pay a sales tax. This cries for some sort of minutes, I would urge to vote in the positive. cleaning up, some sort of legislation that will make it definite whether or not you pay sales tax on formal The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the wear or sporting clothes. That needs to be cleaned up, gentleman from Luzerne, Mr. O'CONNELL. but that, at this point, would cost the Commonwealth Mr. O'CONNELL. Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of money. I do not think we are in a position to give any the bill. I think it is fair and equitable. I think that it special interests any relief at this time. is the only place left where you can get a 20-cent lunch. I hope that my remarks will have some effect on the I think it does favor the consumer and I think it is an actions of this House in this particular instance and I advantage to the person who cannot afford a lot of money. azk for a "no" vote on the bill. Vending machines do provide a service. There is a great risk in the vending-machine business, in spite of The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the the accusation they may be high-~rofit areas. I can gentleman Luzerne, Mr. O'COnnell. attest to the fact that that is not so. - Mr. O'CONNELL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The provision in here that speaks to the ex~mption3 Would the gentleman, Mr. Caputo, consent to a brief and to those items that are not now taxable, such as Iinterrogation? 3084 LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Will the gentleman, Mr. but less than $1.01, the tax is 6 cents; from 68 cents Caputo, consent to a brief interrogation? to 85 cents, the tax is 5 cents. Mr. CAPUTO. I will, Mr. Speaker. Mr. O'CONNELL. Okay, I am sorry. But it was just The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman may the formula. proceed. Then at 85 cents it goes to the 6 cents? Is that true? Mr. O'CONNELL. Mr. Speaker, is it not true that Mr. CAPUTO. That is right. what we are talking about here is breakage? Mr. O'CONNELL. I was a nickel wrong in the com- Mr. CAPUTO. Not from the analysis I have on the putation, but the facts are still there and the same bill, Mr. Speaker. principle applies. I was not sure anymore whether it Mr. O'CONNELL. Well, let me see if I can put this was 80 or 85 cents where the breakage occurred. in the proper perspective. If I were in a restaurant and Mr. CAPUTO. I know. had an 80-cent meal, what would the sales tax be? Mr. O'CONNELL. And I am not sure of the bracket Mr. CAPUTO. On an 80-cent meal? I guess it would under that, but the breakage is rather substantial. be 5 cents. A restaurant can serve 100 of those 85-cent meals and Mr. O'CONNELL. I am inclined to think that it might when they compute their gross sales at the end of that be 6 cents when it is past 75 cents. month for sales tax purposes, they take the total and, Mr. CAPUTO. You may be right. I do not know. by so doing, they have some advantage in that breakage. I pay my bill; I do not check the tax. Mr. CAPUTO. I disagree with the speaker on that Mr. O'CONNELL That is exactly right. But I think point. when it goes by the 75 cents and it is at three-quarters I have been retained and have represented taxpayers and it is an 80-cent meal, it is 6 cents. throughout the Commonwealth. I have had cases before Mr. CAPUTO. It could be. the various agencies, including the Board of Finance and Revenue. I have challenged audits on behalf of my O'CONNELL' when that clients. However, when an audit is made in a restaurant operator reports the sales tax, he takes the total sales. or in any other business, the tax assessment and the tax He has a deduction of taxable and nontaxable items that collected by the Department of Revenue is on he reports as gross, so hc can take advantagc of breakagc individual sales. When an audit is made, each slip in the because he does not record particularly on every sale. restaurant is 'audited to see what the cost of the meal What you are suggesting here is that the vending-ma- or sandwich was and the tax is a separate item on that chine operator be given the same opportunity because, particular in fact, there is a penalty when you pay for it on an in- You will recall that in this House, I think during the dividual sale, which I refer to as breakage. The breakage last session, we amended the tax act in cases where you gets to be rather substantial. In this case, it would be go into a restaurant and they impose a service charge of 10 or 11 percent. The vending people are not asking for 10 percent or 15 percent. A ruling by the Department of any break. hey are willing to Pay the 6 percent that Revenue was that where the service charge or tip was is due on a dollar sale. It is the method in which the? mandatory, you had to pay the tax on the entire trans- arrive at it that is pretty difficult for them. So they are ,,tion, including the tip, because you were billed that presently being penalized in the operation of a vending- way, if you belonged to a country club or some other kind machine business. of a club or were in a restaurant where this practice was It is just a judgment as to whom that money does practiced. We corrected the law to provide that the sale belong to. Since the consumer, in effect, cannot take itself would be separate from the tip so that you would advantage of it, is it not fair to say that the vendor, by only pay on the cost of the meal. using that money, would pass that along to the con- That is what the tax is imposed on. It is the respon- sumer-and has, in many instances-as opposed to going sibility, under the existing law, of the restaurateur to to the Commonwealth? I think that is the question. What make a return based on the individual sales as it is you are really talking about here is breakage. TVhcn in 5 and 10's and other stores that sell taxable items. everyone else computes this, they can take advantage They do not submit or pay a tax on their gross revenues; of the breakage, whereas a vending-machine operator they pay it on individual sales that are subject to tax. cannot. On the question recurring, I think this is long overdue. I think the Commonwealth Shall the bill pass finally? has really been raping them for a hell of a long time. It is time it was straightened out. Agreeable to the provision of the constitution, the yeas Mr. CAPUTO. Mr. Speaker, I would like to correct and taken and were as Mr. O'Connell. YEAS-131 The SPEAKER pro tempore. Does the gentleman, Mr. O'Conneli, agrce to a brief interrogation? ~nderson.3. a Giammareo Manmiller Scheaffer Arthors Gillette McCall Sehmitt Mr. O'CONNELL. Yes, Mr. Speaker. Bellornlnl Glesso~l MeClateh~ Seltzer Mr. CAPUTO. :::,"zn Gleeson McClle Shuman I just wanted to answer Mr. O'Connell. Griec~ McGinnis Sinanni The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman may ~er~in ring Mebus smlth. E. proceed. Rittle Halvemon Miller, M. E. Smith. L. Rrandt Rnmiltan. J. R. Mil1er.M.E.. Jr. E~encer Mr. CAPUTO. You asked me what the tax was on R~,~~~~FIasav Mil:iron stnhl an 80-cent sale. nurn~ rrnsl;el~ nriscevich stout Mr. O'CONNELL. That is right. Cessa~ ITayes. D. S. Morris Taylor Pimint- ...... Have.~.., ... , -S . II-. .M>lllm...... , ..M . . P.. Thnmaa... -.. Mr. CAPUTO. I have just been passed the Tax Reform Hepiord Myers Turner gt;el, Hill Novak Ustmoski Code of 1971, which has a schedule of taxes. On 85 cents, 1 crseOM Hapkins Noye vroon 1975. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE 3085

Cumberland Hutchieon. A. O'Conncll Wagner in the negative. I would like to be recorded in the Davis. D. M. Irvis Oliver Weldner affirmative. DeMedlo Johnson, L Pancoast Deverter Kata Parker. El. S. Whetan The SPEAKER pro tempore. The remarks of the Dicarlo Kelly. A. P. Perrl Whittlesey gentleman will be spread upon the record. DiDonato Kelly. J. B. Perry Wilt. R. W. Dietz lcistler Pievsky Wilt. W. W. The SPEAKER pro tempore. Without objection, the ~ininnf Klingaman Pit@ wojdak Chair now turns to page 9 of today's calendar. Dorr Knepper Polite Worrilow Englehart Kusse Pratt Wright Fawceti Laudadlo Pyles Yahner EDUCATION BILLS ON THIRD Fee Laughm Rappaport Yohn Foster, A. Lehr Reed Zearfass CONSIDERATION Foster. W. Letterman Renninger Zeller Gallagher ~evi Renwick Zwikl Agreeable to order, Gallen Lincoln Ryan The House proceeded to third consideration of Senate Ga~da Lynch Saloonl Fineman. Geesey Manderino Salvatore speaker bill NO. 580, printer's No. 1315, entitled: George An Act amending the act of March 10, 1949 (P. L. 30, NAYS-54 No. 14), entitled "Public School Code of 1949," further providing for general obligation bonds. Abraham Gillesple nloehlmann Seirica Barber Goodman Mrkonlc Shane On the question, Bonetto Greenfield Mullen Shelhamer Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration? Bradley Hammock Musto Shelton Caputo Hutchinson. w. O'Brien Shupnik Mr. ITKIN requested and obtained unanimous consent Cohen Itkin O'Donnell Stapleton to offer the following amendments, which was read: Dombro- Kernick O'Keefe Taddonio Doyle Kolter Petrarea Toll Amend Title, page 1, line 5, by inserting after "there- Eckensberger Kowalyshyn Prendergast Rello ": F~s~her LaMar~a Richardson Vann to," providing for an elected board of public education Fisher Lederer Romanelli Wansacz in first class A school districts, and for taxing power Flahertr McIntyre Ruggiero Wargo for such board; Fryer hIcLane Schweder Zord Amend Title, page 1, line 6, by removing the period Geisler Mcnhorn after "bonds" and inserting: and for eligibility for district superintendent or assistant superintendent in school dis- NOT VOTING-17 tricts of the first class. Amend Bill, page 1, by inserting between lines 8 and 9: Benon Green Rieger Tayoun BiackweU McGraw RItter Valleentl Section 1. The act of March 10, 1949 (P. L. 30, No. 141, Butera Milanovleh Ross w,,,, ,., p, known as the "Public School Code of 1949," is amended Da~lea lihadrs Sulli\.s.n Whn by adding a section to read: Dreibelbll Section 302.1. School Board in First Class A School Districts; Apportionment of Seats, and Numbers, Terms, The majarity required by the Constitution having voted and Methods for Election of School Directors in First in the affirmative, the question was determined in the Class A School Districts.-(a) Composition of School affirmative. Board. (1) In each school district of the first class A, the Ordered, That the clerk present the same to the Senate school board shall be known as the board of ed- for concurrence. ucation and shall consist of an odd number ot members not less than seven nor more than fifteen school directors, to be elected by the qualified voters of the school district QUESTIONS 01" PERSONAL PRIVILEGE by specified districts. (2) There shall he a corresponding odd number, not The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the less than seven nor more than fifteen separate districts gentleman from Lehigb, Mr. Ritter. For what purpose for each of which only one candidate shall be elected. does the gentleman rise? Each candidate shall be nominated onl for the specified Mr. RITTER. I rise to a question of personal privilege. district in which he resides and eacl elected member shall represent only a specified district in which he resides, he SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will state such districts to be constituted as hereinafter set forth. it. (b) Term of office.~ Mr. RITTER. I was out of my seat when the vote was ~lielected members shall serve for a term of lour taken on House bill No. 12. I would like to be recorded years except thethree, fouf, six Or seven members in the affirmative, please. elected at thls initial electlon m even numbered school director districts, who shall serve for two years. In the The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman's remarks event the first election occurs in an even-numbered year, will be noted for the record. (the terms of the initial members shall be increased bv one year, so that future elections can be held in odd-num: The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Butler, Mr. bered years. In the case of death or resignation of elected Green. members, the mayor of the most populous municipality contained in such school district shall fill the vacancy GREEN. My switch was locked on the vote cn from the same school director district in which the vacancy House bill No. 12. I wish to be recorded in the affirmative. occurred until the first Monday in December following The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman's remarks the next municipal primary occurring one hundred twenty days after the vacancy occurred. will be~ ~ noted for the~ record. (c) Apportionment. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Erie, Mr. (1) In each school district of the first class A, a School Dombrowski. For what purpose does the gentleman rise? Director District Apportionment Commission shall be constituted for the purpose of establishing an odd number DOMBROWSKI, I rise to a of personal not less than seven nor more than fifteen school director privilege. districts within the first class A school district by assign- The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will ing each election district within such school district into state it. one of such school director districts. The commission shall select that odd number of districts from seven to fifteen Mr. DOMBROWSKI, Mr. Speaker, when the vote which will best provide for racial balance and proportional was taken on House bill No. 12, 1 inadvertently voted representation of all segments of the population at the time LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16, of the apportionment. Such school director districts shall ance with the act of June 3, 1937 (P. L. 1333, No. 320), be compact, contiguous, and as nearly equal in population known as the "Pennsylvania Election Code!' as practicable. (e) Applicable Law upon Adoption. After the election (2) The commission shall consist of six members, two of school directors from specified districts in accordance to be appointed by the mayor of the most populous therewith, the board of public education of such first class municipality in such school district, three by the city A school district shall be governed by the provisions of council of such municipality and one by the mayor of this section and by all other provisions of the act to which any other municipality in such school district with the this is an amendment and other provisions of general law approval of the legislative body thereof. The commission relating to first class A school districts which are not in- shall elect one of its members chairman, and shall act consistent with the provisions of this section. The pro- by a majority of its entire membership. If any of the visions of this section shall supersede all other parts of the appointing authorities shall fail to make any or all of zct to which this is an amendment and all other acts affect- such appointments within fifteen days after enactment of ing the organization of school districts of the first class A this act, such appointment or appointments shall be made to the extent that they are inconsistent or in conflict here- by the court of common pleas. with. All existing acts or parts of acts and resolutions af- (3) No later than,forty-five days after the commission fecting the organization of first class A, school districts not has been duly certlfled, the commrsslon shall file an irlconsistent or in confllct wlth the provrsions of thls sectlon apportionment plan with the county board of elections shall remain in full force until modified or repealed as to be submitted to the voters of the district at the next /provided by law. primary election occurring not less than ninety-one days (f) Certain Prohibitions of Service. No superintendent, after the plan is filcd with the county board and ct which assistant superintendent, supervising principal, teacher or primary election the candidates for members of the school other employe shall serve either temporarily or Pcrma- board shall be nominated. nently as a member of the school board by which em- (4) Each year following the year in which such Federal ployed. census data is officially reported, a School Director Dis- (g) Transition Provisions and Expiration of Existing trict Reapportionment Commissicn shall be constituted Terms. The terms of existing appointed board members in like manner and with like composition as the initial shall terminate on the first Monday of December in 1976 School Director District Apportionment Commission or in any subsequent year in wh~chthe rn~tialelected herein set forth. Such reapportionment commission shall members are elected, at which time the terms of ail file its plan no later than forty-five days after either the members to be elected as herein provided shall be commission has been duly certified or the population data deemed to begin. Thereafter the terms of all elected for the first class A school district as determined by the memhers shall expire on the first Monday of December Federal decennial census are available, whichever is later in the year in which the length of tcrm to which such in time. members shall have been elected has been served. (5) The school district shall appropriate sufficient Amend Sec. 1, page 1, line 9, by striking out "1." and funds for the compensation and expenses of members and inserting: 2. staff appointed by such apportionment and reapportion- Amend Sec. 1, page 1, line 9, by removing the comma ment commissions, and other necessary expenses. The after "633" and inserting: of the members of such commissions shall be entitled to such Amand Sec. 1, page 1, lines 9 and 10, by striking out "of compensation for their services as the srhool district from March 10, 1949 (P. L. 30, No. 14). known as the "Public time to time shall determine, but no part thereof shall be School Code of 1949,"" paid until a plan is filed. Amend B111. page 3, by inserting between lines 4 and 5: (6) If an apportionment or reapportionment plan is Section 3. The act is amended by adding a section to not filed by the commission within the time prescribed read: by this section, the court of common pleas of the county Section 652.1. Taxing Power of Elected Board of Public in which the district is located shall immediately proceed Education of School Districts of the First Class A.-(a) on its own motion to apportion or reapportion the school The elected board of publlc education in any school dis- director districts. trict of the first class A shall have authority to impose (7) Any apportionment or reapportionment plan, filed taxes for the purposes of such school district as follows: by any such commission or prepared by the cmrt of cnln- (1) Without ordinance and under the following statutes mon pleas of the county in which the district is located their reenactments and amendments, at the rates fixed upon the failure of the commission to act shall be publish- therein, namely: ed by the county board of elections once in at least one (i) Act of June 20, 1947 (P. L. 745, No. 320), (mercan- newspaper of general circulation in the most populous tile license tax). municipality of the school district, which publication shall (ii) Act of June 20, 1947 (P. L. 733, No. 319), (personal contain a map of the school district showing the complete p'OCJerfy tax). apportionment or reapportionment of the school director (iii) Act of August 24, 1961 (P. L. 1135, NO. 508), (in- district. The publication shall also state the population rome tay), of the school director districts having the smallest and (jv) Pro~ert~Tax Acts: largest population and the percentage variation of such Act of 1959 (P. L. 1552, 557), (addi- districts from the r;vv:ai:c pop~>Intionfar such districts. tional (8) The county board of elections shall place upon the Act of August 8, 1963 (P. L. 585, No. 304), (additional 1 ballot to be submitted to the voters of each first class A school district under the act of June 3, 1937 (P. L. 1333, my!t of May 23, 1949 (P, L, 1661, No, 505), (additional No. 320), known as the "Pennsylvan~aElection Code," the following question: Act of July 12, 1057 (P. L. 837, No. 386). (additional % mill) and section 652 of this act, (11% mills). (2) In addition thereto, by ordinance on any persons, transactions, occupations, privileges, subjects and real or uersonal property as they shall determine not prohibited Commission for the election of members of - hy the act of December 31, 1965 (P. L. 1257, No. 511), the Board of Public Education of the School I known as "The Local Tax Enabling Act": but no ordinance I -hall authorize the imposition of a tax on the wages, sal- / nrv or net income of anv. uerson. not a resident of such In the event the voters shall reject the apportionment plan, the nomination of school directors under this section othpr than under shall be void and the present board shall continue, but a shall fix the rate

second referendum. uuon the uetition of~~ fifteen ner cent I theresf and provide for the levy, assessment and collec- of the~reristeredvote& of the school district. mavLbeheld 1 tion of the same. after two years from the date of the first electihn. (c) In any case where an ordinance of the elected board (d) Nomination and Elections of School Directors. of education imposes a tax on the same subject and per- School directors shall be nominated and elected in accord- son on which any coterminous political subdivision im- LEGISLATIVE JOURNAbHOUSE poses a similar tax, the rate shall be halved as ~rovidedabout this. Those of you have heard before on this in section 8 of "The Local Tax Enabling Act." issue know that there is much more to it than what the Amend Sec. 2, page 3, line 5, by strlklng out "2." and inserting: 4. gentleman has said. hi^ is not merely a simple issue of ~~~~d ill, page 3, by inserting between lines 29 whether people have a right to select their own leaders 30: or not; there is a racial issue behind this and the racial Section 5. The provisions of this act shall apply, to issue is very simple. school districts of the first class A only from the first I, city of pittsburgh,the black population of the Monday of December fnllowlng the electlon af a hoard of public education in accordance with section 302.1 (a) of xhools, I helieve, is now almost at 42 ~ercent. No ~lan the "Public School Code of 1949." has been offered so far for an elected school hoard which Amend Sec. 3, page 3, line 30, by striking out "3." and would not deny the black parents parity with the white inserting: 6. parents on such a hoard. The selected school board has On the question, managed to keep a percentage relationship between white Will the~ouseagree to the amendments? and black on the hoard. I have said at this microphone before and I say it again, The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the that my primary interest is not to appeal to the fears of gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Itkin. men and women but to try and more over difficult areas Mr. ITKIN. Mr. Speaker, I will try to be extremely .f life, and one of those difficult areas right now is in our brief. I know the hour is getting late. I will try to ex- school system. I am absolutely convinced as I stand here pedite the discussion on this amendment. that if we now -en to an elected school hoard svslem in the Mr. Speaker, my amendment would provide an elected city of Pittsburgh, wc shall have troubles in our schools school board for the school district of Pittsburgh. This and around our schools. I am trying to avoid that. particular issue has been debated in this House over sev- contrary to what the gentleman, Mr. Itkin, has told you, era1 lerms, and I commend my colleagues for passing the there is no established fact that the majority of the peo- measure every time it has been hrought to the floor. ple in the city of Pittsburgh want an elected school board. The problem we have with the hill is that the other I :lm not saying that if we wcre to take a poll it would chamber's chairman of the Education Committee refuses ,,,, in the I am saying kllnws that to give it appropriate consideration. For that reason I as a fact. H" stated it as if it has been established as a have taken the tack of u:;ing a Senate-passed bill to Pro- fact, and he knows better than that. vide it as a vehicle so that the issue could be debated 1 am also convinced right now that the people in the directly on the floor of the Senate. city of Pittsburgh are quiet about this issue. I am equally Now an overwhelming majority of the people in the convinced that we can stir the issue up. WE can get black city of Pittsburgh favor an elected school hoard. The de~nagogues and white demagogues, black bigots and issue has become extremely heightened over the past white bigots stirred up very easily. Then the rest of us couple of months because the school hoard is now in the are trying to walk a middle palll will suffer from throes of a fiscal crisis in which it has asked this legisla- that, and so will the children. ture to provide them with a 25-percent increase in Prop- I know this is a crusade. and I think it is auite a sincere erty taxes. crusade on the gentleman's part, but it is equally a sincere Now Pittsburgh is only one of two districts in the Com- crusade of to stop it. ~~d I ask that your vote he monwealth that has an appointed hoard. We are the only in tile negative. district in the Commonwealth that must come to this legislature to ask for an increase in its taxing authority. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the It seems ironic that we shnuld empower a school hoard gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Caputo. to pass on expenditures and give them the authority to Mr. C.IPUT0. Mr. Speaker, I respect the statements go ahead and develop new school construction, to settle of the majority leader, and I am happy to say that he disputes, to collectively bargain; in other words, to assess and I have been getting along very, very well for a couple costs to the taxpayers; but then do not give them the of years now, hut every time this comes up me take the attendant responsibility to impose upon their own resi- opposite sides of the pole. dents the taxes to pay for the costs. I do not know whether it is a fact or not that the resi- It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, and to my colleagues in dents of the Pittshurgh School District want an elected the past-and I am addressing myself to the new mem- or an appointed school board. I do know that there have hers nnw-unfair and inequitable that the residents of been many, many meetings, and depending on which sec- Pittsburgh should have an appointed board while every tion of thc city you are in, you had a consensus one way other school dsitrict, save Philadelphia, should have an or the other. elected one. And then even in Philadelphia the fiscal Bul this Hause has historically, since I have been a responsibility is still housed within its city council and member, approved legislation creating an elected school within its mayor. hoard in the city of Pittsburgh, and historically it has I would urge the members of this House to give us the heen held up and never suhjected to a vote in the Senate. opportunity to choose our own local officials, to determine During the last session of this legislature, a hill was not only school policy but the costs that are required to introduced and passed providing for an elected school carry out that policy, and to provide them with the re- board subject to certain conditions. When the bill got to sponsibility to raise their own taxes. the Senate, the Senate held hearings on the hill over a period of 6 or 7 months. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the hill we are seeking to amend contains, among the majority leader. saonsors. the name of Mrs. Reibman. She was chairman Mr. IRVIS. Mr. Speaker, I rise in opposition to the gentleman's amendments. I am not going to belabor the patience or the time of the House with a long address LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

-- ~~~~~~~ Mrs. Reibman can push through the legislation she ing here in Harrisburg in the Capitol, somewhat insulated espouses in the principal part of this hill or relegate it from the people of Pittsburgh. We found that one gentle- to some conference committee or some committee that man did travel to Harrisburg and offered some testimony will not shut it off from debate in the Senate. I ask that for his organization and for a couple of other organiza- you give her that opportunity by amending this bill. tions against legislation similar to the Itkin amendment, but I submit that that is in no way representative of the The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the I feelings of !he majority of the people in Pittsburgh, gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Cowell. I think that what it comes down to is this: We are Mr. COWELL. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. faced with a situation where, if we defeat the Itkin '8 too, rise to the Itkin amendment. Very amendment, we are again telling the people of Pittsburgh briefly and to summarize some of the remarks that prob- that, unlike most people in Pennsylvania, we are going to ably have been made on the floor many times with respect continue to deny them the opportunity to elect those men to this argument in the past several years, we have a and who will run their school district and who will situation in the city of Pittsburgh-and I might add that I decide what types of taxes they will pay to maintain that do not live in Pittsburgh. I live right outside of Pitts- school system, Really, when you get down to the nitty- burgh, in one of the suburban communities of Allegheny gritty, what we are saying, or our rationale for saying represent a part Pittsburgh but Only three that anyway, is that we do not like the people whom they voting precincts in the eastern part of the city. But, we might elect, or we do not like the issues they might dis- have a situation in the city of Pittsburgh-now where the ,,,,, in the campaign, school directors for that city are selected by our Allegheny I am terribly sympathetic with some of the arguments County judges. Consequently, we have a situation where raised by the majority leader, but, frankly, I canllot sub. one of my neighbors, who lives in Allegheny County but scribe and I cannot see how anybody in this H~~~~ can not in Pittsburgh, and many of his colleagues from around subscribe to a position that I consider somewhat the county, many of whom also live outside of Pittsburgh, that is the position, as I said, where we tell people, we are charged with the responsibility of selecting who will a,e going to give you the right to elect your represen- he the school directors for the city of Pittsburgh. Even tatives because we do not like people you might elect, more absurdly, I would suggest, I-not a resident of the I do not see how we can take that stance, and I there- city of ~ittsburgh-and all of you-most of You nonresi- fore urge the members of this House to vote in favor of dents of Pittsburgh; many of you from Philadelphia and the Itkin amendment, from hundreds of miles away from Pittsburgh-are charg- ~h~~kyou, ed with the res~onsibilitvof. in effect., establishine- tax~~ rates for those people who do live in Pittsburgh. Frankly, The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the this system makes no sense to me whatsoever. gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Rhodes. Now our majority leader has spoken, as usual, very Mr. RHODES. Mr. Speaker, it is late in the day and it clo~juentlywith respect to some of the problems he sees is hard to get into a substantive debate about a subject with this particular type of amendment. I respectfully, this House has been over so many times, but I beg the in this circumstance, must disagree with the majority indulgence of the House because, unfortunately, this mat- leader. It has been suggested by a couple of speakers ter has been raised again. I regret as you do that this that it is not an established fact that a majority of people matter has been raised again, but it has been. I will not or anywhcre near a majority of people in Pittsburgh want discuss the substantive issue. I know you are tired of an elected board. Well, I think that those of us who are that, and it has been a long day. from in or near Pittsburgh would admit, though, that if Let me simply point this out: Anyone who tells you we did take a poll, chances are excellent that Pittsburgh that this is not controversial in Pittsburgh is not telling residents would choose for themselves a system where you the truth. I do not represent a part of Pittsburgh; I they could elect their school board representatives. In represent most of the eastern part of Pittsburgh, and I fact, the Itkin amendment does conduct such a poll. It will tell you that my constituents consider this very con- provides for a referendum so that, in effect, what we troversial. There is not one voice in Pittsburgh on would be giving the people of Pittsburgh is an cppar- whether we should have an elected or what kind of elect- tunity to choose. Ure would not be shoving an elected ed or appointed school board. There is a lot of disap- board down their throats. The Itkin amendment gives pointment with our current board, but there is even more them an opportunity to choose. concern about what an elected hoard would mean in Pitts- I believe that there may be a Representative from the burgh. Do not believe anybody who tells you that this is House Education Committee who may comment ahout a not controversial in our city. hearing that the House Education Committee had on this Senator Reibman held extensive hearings, as bas been particular subject 2 or 3 months ago. It might be sug- pointed out, years ago on this question in Pittsburgh. gested that no zdvocates of an elected board system spoke And there was, as far as I could tell-and I honestly say or testified or offered any comments whatsoever to that it to you as a colleague of Yours on this floor that there subcummittee of the Education Committee. I was a mem- was-definitely, in my opinion, evenly divided opinions her of that subcommittee, and it would he accurate to or points of view represented at those hearings on this state that. question. That is the reason Senator Reibman chose not But I would suggest that we should not rely too greatly to act in the Senate. on what occurred with that particular subcommittee and We had hearings in Harrisburg, and it is true, as Mr. the events that surrounded it because, in effect, that sub- Cowell pointed out, there was not a lot of representation committee decided to circumvent the real issue for the because people boycotted the hearings. It is that con- time being and not go into Pittsburgh and not give the troversial. Do not stir this controversy any further by residents of Pittsburgh an easy opportunity 'to offer their adding it to this bill. comments. Instead, on a midsummer day, we had a hear- One further point. Those of you from Philadelphia LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL-HOUSE have a direct interest in this bill. If we add on this very I YEAS-11 1 controversial amendment, I swear to you that I will go to Ahrshsm Fryer Lynch Sirlannl the Senate-and so will others who are concerned about Andemn. J. 8. Gallen Manrntller Smith. E. this controversy-and ask that the House amendments to Bellomini Ga~li~ McCiatchy Smith. L. Bittle Gcesey McCue Spenrrr this Senate bill he nonconcurred in so we can go into a Brvndt C-eisler McGinnls Stahl conference committee and hold this up, because we do Brunner Gillesple McLane 512p1cton BUI~S Glenson Menhorn stout not believe this is the way to deal with this subject. And cayuto Green Miller, M. E.. Taddonio you would do the same thing if they were trying to ram Cessar Grieea dlisce;,!ch T2y:or something controversial down your throat. So I recom- Ciminl Grjng MTBOIIIC T: e: I" C0arell Halvenon Mullen T,,r"<~r mend to the members from Philadelphia that you do not Crawford Hamilton. J. A. Musto Uaynoski cloud up your very important legislation with this amend- Cumherland li:sev NOVBL: l'roon D. M. ment, because we will cloud it up in the Senate. This nauis, Ha~bs.D. S. N0j.e Warner Dev~rter Hayes. S. E. O'lieefe ~~~msnez bill is not the vehicle to amend and change this procedure Hepford Pancoast Wargo in Pittsburgh. Hvll Perr! Xeidner It is a very controversial thing. I do not care what any- Westerberg ~ ~... .~~~.Wbelan one tells you today, it is very controversial. Do not make Katz Fylrs WhiTt1;sCY Kelly, J. a. Ron>nnr.lli a decision today that is going to throw Senate bill No. 580 Kemick 1Zvan into an interminable conference-committee controversy. I ask you to vote against the amendment. Fisher Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Plahertp P:,ster. A. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the Foster. W gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Itkin. Mr. ITKIN. Mr. Speaker. other members of the House I may think that this ii a interest of concern only I nrthurs Hammock nn..i~lms~n Rieger to Pittsburgh. Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, it has far- Ez':tt Haskell ~on?s Ritter Hutchinson. A. Mullen. !.I. P. Ross reaching effects on all of you because Pittsburgh and Bere, Hutchinson. W. M~en Rugei~ro Philadelphia need and receive additional moneys that you H^rlln Irvb O'Brirn Schmitt Berson Johnson. 5. WConnell sc1r:ca ultimately appropriate. RlackweU Kelly. A. P. O'Dann~ll Shane Now when I look at my school hoard and I see a case of Bradley ~o~ter 0iiv.r Shelton declining student population over the past decade, where ICowalyshyn Parker, H. S. Shvnlan LaWarca Perm Shupnik the population has dropped by some 15 or 16 percent, :)e~edio I nudedio Petrarca SUIIIY.~ when I spe increased expenditures, when I see an expan- ninonat0 ~.augh~~n ~icvsky Tayoun I'crierer pratt Thomas sion program of over $100 million of new school construe- Letterrnan Pr<:ndcrga.t Toll tion or remodeling where you do not have the capacity Gallegher Lincoln Rappaporl Vann of a tax base to pay for that, when I see that srhool dis- r::anderino Wilt. R. 1';. nrrcvll ReedR-nninzer Wilt, w. 1v. trict going ahead and borrowing money because it is an ~~~~~-~inette Mebus Rcnwick Wojdak appointed board that does not have to come up with the z:;:;;n hliller, M. E. Rhodes Yahncr Milliron Riehnrdsor Yohn taxes, when our debt service has gone up from $6 million cECdiela a few years ago and it is now $13 million in this forth- coming budget from $11 million, and when they talk NOT VOTING-I0 about floating some $20 million in bonds next year, I start nonctt~ En?!ebart ~il-inovieh lineman. tn get concerned. ~utcra MCGTPW v;iirentl Speaker Mcinirre $\;~i.;h.T. P. Now I can tell you what is going to happen. I can tell navies . . you that if you do not give us an elected board that starts So the question was determined in the affirmative and ruttine some fiscal restraint on our school hoard.. we are the amendments were agreed to. going to come to this legislature and try to extract MOTION TO RECOMMIT vou additional monevs" ~ to save our schools. I think there may be a question of concern about minor- The SPEAKER pro tcmpore. The Chair recognizes the ity groups, but I think responsible people can address gentleman from Allegheny, Mr. Rhodes. For what pur- themselves to the concerns of all persons in Pittsburgh. Pose does the gentleman rise? The particular legislation requires that the commission Mr. RHODES. I rise to make a motion to recommit whirh will do the apportionment must consider racial Senate bill No. 580 to the Committee on Education be- hslance, and also it has to come under the guidelines of cause of this amendment and the broader questions it the Constitution. Therefore, if there are any grievances raises now. which go beyond the purview of what may appear to be discriminatory, there can be, of course, court action taken On the question, Will the House agree to the motion? I would say~. to you that if you want to start wutting our educational system on a sound fiscal basis to &vide-that The yeas and nays were required by Messrs. RHODES you do not have to pav the bill ultimatelv. then you will 1 and IRVIS and were as follows: support this amendment. Thank you. - 1 YEAS-60 On the question recurring, narber Jr-.is M?~Ts Sehweder Will the House agree to the amendments? enn nett J~hmon,I. WD~nnell SCMC~ Blackwell Kelly, A. P. Oliver Shane The yeas and.nays were required by Messrs. ITKIN and 'Colter F~rker,H. S. Shelton Kowa!yahyn Pratt Shm~n IRVIS and were as follows: . . DiDonntoZ;''';J L3Marcs P;onlcrgsst Shuynik LEGISLATIVE JOURNAkHOUSE October 16,

Pischer Li~ughli~l Reed TEIYO~ Taken in isolation, the good case can be made for say- Giammarco Lederer Renninger Toll ing that anyone who has served at the level of associate Glllette Lettermen Rhorles Vm Greeniteld Lincoln Richardson Wargo superintendent for 5 years is qualified to be superinten- IIammock Manderfno Rieger Wilt. R. W. dent of schools for a city of the first class. The issue, Haskell lNeIntyre Ritter WUt. W. W. Hopkin8 Mebus ROSS Yohn though, is far too important to be taken in isolation. We liutchinson. A. Miller, M. E. Rugglero Zearfoss have standards for who is qualified to he a teacher, a Hiltchl~on.W. Moel~lmann Sehmitt Zwlkl counselor, a principal, or a superintendent for the reason NAYS-132 of ending arbitrary criteria, political deals and person- alitv strueelesuu which in the~. nast have nroved. ~~ detrimental~ ~ ~~~-~~~- Abraham Foster. A. ~ ~ to good education for our children. Andenon. J. H. Foster. W I.mch S~IOO~ hrthurs Fryer Manmiller Salvatore The section which I seek to remove, aimed at changing Bellomid Gallagher IMrCall Seheaffer the law for one man in Philadelphia, a man who, by his Beren Gsllen McClatchy Seltzer Berlln Garria Mecue Shelhamer own statement reported in the press, is perfectly capable Berson Geeaey MeGinnls Sirianni of completing the educational requirements in time to be Bittle Gelslpr MeLane Smlth. E. certified by the state and thus he made fully qualified Brnndt GeoFge Menhorn Smith. L. Rrunner Gillesple Mill*r. M. E.. Jr. Spencer under current law, is one which would seriously endanger nu- Gleason Milliron Stahl the vital principle of one law for all. Caputo Glezson Miscevich Stzpleton Cernar Goodman Morris Stout If we pass this special provision for one man in Phila- Clm!ni Green Mrkonic Taddonlo delphia, we will he saying that the path for educational Cole Grieeo Mullen. M. P. Taylor Cawell Gring Mullnn Thomas advancem~ntlies not within the educational profession Crawford Halverjon Must0 Trello but within the development of political clout. If we pass Cumberland Fiamilton. J. 8. Novsk Turner this special provision for one man in Philadelphia, can Davb, D.M. 11asay Noye Ustynoakl DeMcdio Hayes. D. S. O'Brien Vrwn we, in fairness, turn down a school hoard whirh seeks to Deverter Ilayes, S. E. O'c~nnell Wagner hire as suverintendent a Derson who has served 5 years. Wansaez say, as a principal hut who lacks the required course Wctdner -~ ~. - --~~ Westerberg work? It will be argued on this floor that we cannot. If Katz Pew Whelan we pass this special provision for one man in Philadelphia, Dorr Kelly, J. B. Pdrarca Whittlerey Doyle K~rnlck Plevsky Wllsun can we, in fairness, turn down a school hoard which seeks Dreihelbl(l wojdak to hire as a superintendent someone who has served 5 Eckennberge wolll1nw years as a superintendent outside of Pennsylvania but Fawcett Wright Fee Yehner who lacks the required course work? It will he argued Fisher 1,~rrdudto Rcnwlek Zeller on this floor at that time that we cannot. Examples of Flahertg L~hr Romsnclli Zord possible qualifications equally deserving can he multiplied NOT VOTING-10 endlessly and will cause endless embarrassment, endless struggle, and endless attack on professional standards if Enzlelltlrt Sullivan we open Pandora's box with the seven lines I am seeking MrGrsw Vsllcentt Milanovlch Walrh. T. P. to delete. So the question was determined in the negative and the It may be, upon examination. that some of our educa- tional standards are too high. It may be that our educa- motion was not agreed to. tional standards are keeuine. - out some of the best .veovle . On the question. available. We 311 know that Ph.D.'s in education do not Will the House agree tn the bill as amended on third monopolize all wisdom, hut if the legislature decides to con-ideratian? shange the rules of the game for what the qualifications Mr. COHEN requested and ohtained unanimous consent are for a person to be a superintendent, we should not do to ocfer the following amendment, which was read: it this way. Instead, we should do it on the basis of one law for all after hearings at which input from all sides Amend Sec. 2 (Sec. 1003), page 3, lines 18 through 24, by striking out all of said lines across the state is received. We cannot afford to create a situation where aualification reauirements are iust a -olav- " On the question, thing of those who momentarily possess political power Will the House agree to the amendment? at any time in any county. ~h~ SPEAKER pro temporc, ~h~ chair recognizes the A generation from now, historialls and just plain citi- gentleman from Philadelphia, Mr. Cohen. zens alike will little note nor long remember the namcs Mr. COHEN. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. of those citizens who wield the political powers today in Mr. Speaker, the amendment I am offering to Senate any county, but the quality of education received in the hill NO. 580 simply deletes seven lines on page 3, seven public schools in every county of this Commonwealth will lines which passed the Education Committee by just the enormously affect the future of the people of this Com- minimum votes needed after 3 days of extensive discus- monwealth 20, 40 and 60 Years from today. sion and debate and an original verdict by committee Although the section of Senate bill No. 580 which I members in favor of keeping these lines out. seek to delete involves Philadelphia, it is not ultimately My amendment seeks to delete seven lines which state a Philadelphia section, and my amendment for deletion in effect that any person who meets the precise creden- is not ultimately a Philadelphia amendment. We are tials of the nominee of the mayor of Philadelphia for dealing with the question of what is best for all Penn- superintendent of schools, but does not meet the full sylvanians, for the action we set here today will set a educational requirements for superintendent of schools precedent for all Pennsylvanians and a precedent .which prescribed by the Department of Education, is automati- we will be reminded of in this legislature many, many cally qualified. times in the future. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE

I urge every member of this House to recognize the Mr. SCHWEDER. Mr. Speaker, will Mr. Gallagher con- real stakes and vote in favor of my amendment, in favor sent to interrogation? of deletion of the special provision abridging the certifica- The SPEAKER pro tempore. Will the gentleman, Mr. tion requirements. Gallagher, consent to interrogation? Thank you. Mr. GALLAGHER. Very briefly, Mr. Speaker. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman may pro- The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the ceed. gentleman from Bucks, Mr. Gallagher. Mr. SCHWEDER. Mr. Speaker, is the current wording Mr. GALLAGHER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. that is in Senate bill No. 580 the exact wording that is Mr. Speaker, I oppose the amendment offered by Mr. included in H~~~~hill No. 770? Cohen. The committee reported the bill out with the GALLAGHER, No, only it would pass, The language which he wishes to strike out. The committee other language is part of House No, 770; the under- felt that it belonged in there. lined language is new. Without any further delay, I think we should just oP- M,, SCHWEDER. ln other words, section (4) of this pose Mr. Cohen's amendment. hill would not be in the new School Code as it is now The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the mitten? gentleman from Philadelphia, Mr. Richardson. Mr. GALLAGHER. That is right. It does not appear Mr. RICHARDSON. Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the in the Cohcn amendment and say that in our committee meet. Mr. SCHWEDER. What is the immediate necessity for ing there was only one vote over. We had voted it down, this, Mr. Speaker? but there was a gentleman who switched his vote in the Mr. GALLAGHER. The immediate necessity is for the which made it possible for that bill to come out school district of the first class city. That is all I can say. of the committee in this particular form, so I would It just deals with the city of Philadelphia. The gentle- think it was not the majority of the members of that "an has all the requirements except several graduate mittee who met that day who wanted the bill. credits which are rather moot at the present time. I say !hat if we set a precedent which would allow Mr. SCHWEDER. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. individual not to go to school to get the degree they are Mr. Spealrer, I rise in support of the Cohen amendment. supposed 1.0 have, then we should make it appljcable to I Was undcr the impression originally, when we started everybody whn goes to school, who applies for any type to work on the recodification of the School Code, that we of associate superintendent, who becomes superintendent were not going to have bills that would amend the school r,f schoo!. or else. I feel that we set a precedent Code of 1949 until that recodification was presented to us, in the wrong direction by doing this. and I see that this has. The only reason this Innguage was inserted in this bill The reason this is necessary at this time is because he- to give it a lot of attention, because the mayor of the fore this was passed, the school district in question hired a ,-j~.~of philadelphia wanted it done. other than that, it man who did not meet the qualifications of the job ac- is cleor Lo me that this is another political issue again cording to state law. 1 am not going to get into personali- today that has b~ennsed on this Xouse floor to try to iies because I am not from Philadelphia and I am not superimpose certain positions of other individuals by really interested in the personalities involved dawn there. i~gpressure tactics to make snre that this passes. But what disturbs me is the fact that if it is done for on? J certainly cannot vole for the hill in its Corm a? it is. school district, it could be done for any other district. It I think that by moving to strike the information which be done for any other department. who is to say this particular amendment by m, cohen seeks to do, we next year, if someone applies to run petitions Ior the Gen- can then on .Lvith the business at hand, But I feel ?'a1 Assembly, that the Secretary of State cannot decide to waive the rules and put the bill in that someone else V2i.1 Fcrsonally that if we do not stand up now and take a sta:ld against individnals who do not have their degrees may run for this. by saying that wc are going to make 3 si>:~iai recon, I think this is a dangerous precedent that could be mendation and a special effort to allox., for .;omcone 1:: started by this, and I would ask all my colleagues to vote step in and becomc superintendent just because he does in favor of the amendment. no: have enough hours, we are certainly taking an incor- rect position. I On the question recurring, Will the House agree to the amendment? Everybody else who goes to school to get their doc- torate, their Ph.D., their bachelor's degree, and other de- ~h,yeas and nays were by M~~~~~.COHEN grees that they go to school for, have to acquire the neces- and GALLAGHER and were as follows: sary hluvs in order to dn this. This bill now allows for all of those hours to he washed away so that we can make YEAS-59 a special recommendation for a man who does not have Anderson, ,,=. Gallen Menhorn Shelharner his sri3dentia!s, and I feel that is setting a bad precedent. , n,,b., George orris Smith. L. want to take on that Green Noye Spencer Now if you membersl again, 1 :E&zu Hnlvenon Petrarea Stahl rz.sponsihility and allov~a man to step into a position Cohen I-larnmock Pratt Tnddonio Hayes, S. E. Reed Taylor when he is not qualified, then the burden of that will lie I g:s,D.arIreorma Richardson Toll cn the rest of the members of this House, but I feel that I Deverter HIII Ritter Vsnn we are acting in good faith if v:e step forward and take a DiCar10 Hut,chinson. A. ROSS Westerberg 1 Diet. irutchi~on,w. Ruegiero Whittlcrey position and vote "yes" on the Cohen amendment. Kistler R~an Wilt, W. W. / g%:nsbergv Kltrlgaman Snlourn Yohn The SPEAKER pro tempor-. The Chair recognizes the ! ~olter Schwedcr Zener g;z&, Lauehlia Seirica Zuikl gentleman from Northampton, Mr. Schweder. Ryer McCall Seltzer 3092 LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16,

Barber Seiriea Bellamfnt Mebus Seltzer Abraham Salvatore Bennett Menhorn Snane Artburs Scheaffer Beren Goodman Miller. M. E. Sheihnnn Bellomlnl Schmltt Berlln Greenfield Miller. M. E.. Jr. Shuman Bennett Shane Bittle Grieco Milliron Siriannl Beren Shuman Bonetto Gring Miscevich Smith. E. Berlln . Jr. Shupnlk Brandt Halverson Maehlrnmn Srmth, L. Berson Gring Sirianni Bmnner Hamilton, J. Morris Spencer Blttle Hamilton. J. 8. Miscevlch Brnlth. E. Burrm Hasay Mrkonic Stahl Bonetto Hasay Moehlmann stepliton cuputo Harkell Mullen. M. P Stapleton Brandt Haskell Mrkonic stout cessar Hayes. D. S. Mullen stout Brunner Hayes. D. S. Mullen Sullivan Cimlnl Hayes. S. E. Must0 Sullivan Burns Hopklns Mullen. M. P Tayoun Cole Hcpford Taddonio Caputo Irvia-~ ~- ---...MU&" Thomas Cowell Hill Taylor Cessar Itkin Novak TreUo Crawford Hopkin. Noye Thomas Johnson. J. O'Brlen Turner Davis. D.M. Hutchinson. O'Brien Toll Katz O'Connell UstynosM fieMedla Irvl. O'Connell bU0 Kelly. A. P. O'Donnell Vroon Deverter Itkin O'DoncciI Turner I

having a private or personal interest in measures before Dorr Kistlel. ~etrarca Wilson the House, I wish to inform the House that the district Doyle K!ingaman Pievsky Wilt. R. W. Dreibelhts Knepper Polite Wilt, W. W attorney of Lebanon County is a partner of the law firm Englehart Kolter Pratt~~~. Woidak with which I am associated. Fee Kowalmhyn Prendergast w&riluw FISher Kuase Pyles Wright Senate bill No. 572 having by amendment become a sal- Flaherty LaMarca Rappaport Yahncr ary bill for district attorneys, I have judged it appropriate roster. A. Laudadio Reed Yohn that I not vote on final passage of Senate bill No. 572 and Foster, W. Lederer Renninger Zrartoss Fryer Lehr Renwick Zord I ask the House to excuse me under the provisions of rule Gallagher Letterman R~ln~nelli 64. Gsilen Lev, Rllggiero Fineman, Garzta Lincoln Ryan Speak?, The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman's remarks Geesey Lynch will he spread upon the record. NAYS-29 Without objection, the Chair turns to page 9 of the calendar, to Senate hill No. 955, printer's No. 1101. Blackwell Hammock Rhodes Shurnan Bradleg Irvis Richarjson Shuplllk Cohen Laughlin Rittcr VBNI Agreeable to order, McLane Ross Vroon The House proceeded to third consideration of Senate Mebus Saloom Wargo bill No. 955, printer's No. 1101, entitled: Muehlmann Schweder Zeller Pltts Sclriea Zd An Act providing services for the diagnosis and correc- tion of speech and hearing defects to nonpuhlic school NOT VOTING-13 children. Berson iMcGraw Oliver Tayoun On the question, Butera MeIntyre Rieger Valieentl Davies Mlianovich Sheltml Walsh. T. P Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration? Giammarco Bill was agreed to. The majority required by the constitution having voted The SPEAKER pro tempore, This bill has been con- in the affirmative, the question was determined in the sidered on three different days and agreed to and is affirmative. now on final passage. Ordered, That the clerk return the same to the Senate The question is, shall the bill pass finally? with information that the House has passed the same with amendments in which the concurrence of the Senate is Agreeable to the provision of the Constitution, the yeas requested. and nays will now be taken. HOUSE SCHEDULE ANNOUNCEMENT I YEAS-187 4hraham Glammarco McCue Schemer The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the r\"deraon. L a G~II~S~IO McGimLB schnutt majority leader. Amun Giuette MeIntyre Sehweder Gleanon MC~C scmca Mr. IRVIS. Mr. Speaker, if the members will please ~~;~~lnlGleeson Mebw Seltzer pay very close attention, it is my intention to get you out Bennett ~oodman Menhorn Shane of here no later than 5:30. We have 19 other votes that I Miller, M. E. Shelharner :zzE GreenGreenfield Miller. M. E.. Jr. Sbelton had listed and obviously we cannot go through them. I sittl, Grle~o Milliron Shurnan have made an arbitrary selection of bills which I think Rlacbetl Gring Mircevfeh Shupnik Halvemon Moehlmann Sirlanni must be acted upon because certain members have asked Hamilton. J. H. Morris Smith. E. for them. Other than these bills, we do not intend to call Brandt Hammock Mrkonie Smith, L. up any others from the calendar. Brulmer Hasay Mullen. M. P. Spencer sums Rsskell Mullen Stab! Those bills are three-three, Mr. Ryan, instead of the c,,,t, Hayes. D. S. Musto Stapleton two that I gave you. Senate hill No. 955 on page 9. Do Cessar Ilepford Novak Stout you have that now marked, Mr. Speaker, because I did Hill No ye Tsddanio FOE Hopklm O'Bllen Taylor not put that on your list? House bill No. 526 on page 3, Cole Hutchinson. A. O'Connell Thomar and Senate bill No. 536 on page 8. Coweu Hut~himon,W. O'Donnell Toll Crawford Imis O'Keefe bllo Now unless some member can convince me that he or cumberland Oliver l'umer she has a bill on here which is of absolute importance, Dm*. D.M. Joh~m.J. Pancoast L'stynoski DeMedfo Kstz Parker, H. S. Venn that will be it and we will get you out of here about 5:30. Kelly. A. P. Perri vrwn I think I hear no objections. Dfcarlo Kelly. J. B. Perry Wmer Mr. Speaker, will you take up Senate bill No. 955, print- Kcrniek Petrarca Wansacr EiPto Kistler Pievsky Wargo er's No. 1101? Dinlnnl Klingamsll Pitts Westerberg Dornbmwxn Knepper Polite U'helan Dorr Kolter Pran WNttlesey QUESTION OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE Doyle 1Cawalyshyn Pyle~ Wilson DreibelbLB Kusse Rnppaport WUt. R. W. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the Eckenuberger LaMarcs Reed WUt. W. W. Fa,,enEnglehsrt Laudadlo Renninger Wojdak gentleman from Lebanon, Mr. Moehlmann. For what Lnughlln Renwiek ~omlonr Purpose does the gentleman rise? Fee Ledere* Rhodea wright Mr. MOEHLMANN. I rise to a question of personal Lehr Richardeon ya~er FzEh:' Letternan Rieger YaM privilege. Flaherty Levl RJtter Zearfoaa The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will state Foster. W. ~incoh Romanelll wlsr it. Galla%h.her Lynch ~ovr Zord Gallen Manderlno Ruggfero Zd Mr. MOEHLMANN. Mr. Speaker, this has to do with carzla Manmiller Ryan Senate bill No. 572. Geesey McCaU saloom bernaa. Geisler McCLatchy Salvatore In view of House rules 64 and 65 concerning members G~~~~~ speaker LEGISLATIVE JOURNAL--HOUSE October 16,

NAYS-5 1 The question is, shall the hill pass finally? Foster, A. ~ayes.S. E. Prendergast Weldner Agreeable to the provision of the Constitution, the yeas Fryer and nays will now be taken. NOT VOTING-10 Berson McGraw Sullivan VaUcentl Butera Mtlano~leh Tayoun Wdsh, T. P. Davi- Myers Abraham Geese? Manrnll'er Ryan Anderson. I.8. Geisler McCall Saloorn The majority required by the constitution having voted Arthum George McClatchy Salvatore Giarnrnarca McCuc Sclieaffer in the affirmative, the question was determined in the ~:;~~inI Gillesple McGinais Schmitt affirmative. Bennett Gillette McIntyre S~hweder Ordercd, That the clerk return the same to the Senate Cieason MeLane Sclrl~a EEzt Gleeson Mebus Seltzer with information that the House has passed the same n,,,,, Goodman Menhorn Shane without amendment. Blttle Gwen Miller, hl. E. Shelharner Blaekwrll~ ~~~ .- Greenfield Miller. M. E.. Jr. Shuman Bonetto Grieeo Milliron Shupnlk Bradley Grine Miscevirh SIriluvli QUESTION OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE 1ia1~;rson Moehlmann smith, E. The Chair recognizes the Hamilton, J. H. Morris Smlth. L. The SPEAKER pro tempore. :yz Hasay Mrkonle Spencer gentleman from Northampton, Mr. Prendergast. For Caouto Iiaskell Mullen. M. P. Stahl Cessar Hayes. D. S. Mullcn Stapleton what purpose does the gentleman rise? Cimml Hayes. S. E. Musto Stout Mr. PRENDERGAST. I rise to a question of personal coie Hepford Novuk Taddonfo Cowell iiill Nnve Tsvlnr privilege. Crawlord The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will state ~~~b~~l~~d it. Davis. D.M. Mr. PRENDERGAST. Mr. Speaker, I would like the IIeMedlo record to show that I voted in the affirmative on Senate Dlearlo Johnson. L Pancoaat Vroon DlDanato Ksta P;lrher. H. S. Wagner hill No. 955. Dietz Kelly. A. P. Prrri Wansacz The SPEAKER pro tempore. The remarks of the gen- ~tninnl Kelly, 5. B. Perry W-0 tleman will be spread upon the record. DombrowW l DOIT -. nrgiielhta TAX BILL ON THIRD CONSIDERATION Eckenshergu KOIG; Pratt Wilson F:nglehart ICowaly~I1yn Prendcrgast Wilt. R. W. Agreeable to order, FBWCP~ Kusse Pylrs Wllt, W. W. The House proceeded to third consideration of House Fee L'dMarca RBIID~DO~~.. . Woidak Fischer Laudadlo Rmnmger ~drrilow bill No. 526, printer's No. 2195, entitled: Flsher Laughlln Renwrck Wright Lederer Richardson Yahner .In .Act nn~cn~l~n,:111~ ;:ct .,I J1.n~: 17, 1113 ,I' I.. 0 Forrrr."ahray A. Lehr Rleger Yohn . 3:;) r r I L h Iinihr ~pttPl,.,er, W, Letterman Rltter Zeatfm Tax La\\., ;l~anclnc: ihi: tlrnc .,f malitng n tax rrl11r11. nyer Lev1 Romanell1 Zeller -~J,,moh-- ---..- Lincoln Ross %rd On the question, Gallen Lynch Rugglera ZaiW Will the House agree- to the hill on third consideration? Gmda Manderino Mr. WOJDAK requested and obtained unanimous con- NAYS-0 sent to offer the following amendments, which were read: NOT VOTING-16

Amend Sec. 1 (Sec. 4.1), page 2, line 4, by inserting Milanovieh Sullivan Wahh. T. P. brackets before and after "it shall be the duty of" Cohen Myers Tayoun Amend Sec. 1 (Sec. 4.1), page 2, line 5, by inserting Davies ~ecd momas Flneman. a hracket before "on" ilamrnock Rhodra Valieentl Speaker Amend Sec. 1 (Sec. 4.1), page 2, line 6, by striking out McGraw Shalton the brackets before and after "Fehruary" ~~~~d see.1 (see. 4.1), page 2, line 6, by striking out The majority required by the constitution having voted "APRIL" in the affirmative, the question was determined in the Amend Sec. 1 (Sec. 4.1), page 2, line 6, by inserting a affirmative, bracket after "to" and insert~ngimmediately thereafter: shall, each year, on or before such date as shall be fixed Ordwed, That the clerk present the same to the Senate by the council in cities coextensive with counties or by fur concurrence. the hoard of revision of taxes or the county commis- sioners in counties other than counties of the first class, On the question, QUESTIONS OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE Will the House agree to the amendments? The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair would like Amendments were agreed to. the record to reflect that had the Speaker, Mr. Fineman. On the question, voted on House bill No. 526, he would have voted in Will the House agree to the bill as amended on third the affirmative. consideration? The Chair recognizes the gentleman f~omPhiladelphia, Bill as amended was agreed to. Mr. Cahm. For what purpose does the gentleman rise? The SPEAKER pro tempore. This bill has been con- Mr. COHEN. I rise to a question of personal privilege. sidered on three different days and agreed to and is The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will s!ate now on final passage. it. 1975. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE 3095

Mr. COHEN. Mr. Speaker. I ask to be recorded in the I NOT VOTING-10 afiirmative on House bill No. 526. Butera McGraw Sullivan Valieentl The SPEAKER pro tempore. The remarks of the gen- D.-W IvUlanovieh Tayoun Welsh. T. P. tleman will be spread upon the record. ManmfUer Parker. H. S. Mr. COHEN. Thank you, Mr. Speaker The majority required by the constitution having votec: I in the affirmative, the question was determined in the affirmative. MINES AND ENERGY MANAGEMENT BILL Ordered, That the clerk return the same to the Senate ON THIRD CONSIDERATION with information that the House has passed the same without amendment. Agreeable to order, he House proceeded to third consideration of Senate rphe SPEAKER pro tempore. ~h~ chair recognizes the bill No. 536, printer's No. 1246, entitled: majority leader. An Act regulating the practices of suppliers, distr%. Mr. IRVIS. Mr. Speaker, there is a privileged resolu- utors and dealers of gasol~nepetroleum products and ac- tion, a condolence resolutiorl on the passing of a former cessories lor motor vehicles and providing remedies for violations. member. I would like the members to remain just for that and then they are released. On the question, Will the House agree to the bill on third consideration? HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Bill was agreed to. HARRISBURG, PA. OFFICE OF THE CHIEF CLERK The SPEAKER pro tempore. This bill has been con- sidered on three different days and agreed to and is RESOLUTION nowr on final passage. WHEREAS, Harold A. Yetzer, Sheriff of Berks County The question is, shall the bill pass finally? and a former member of this House, died on Friday, October 3, 1975; and Agreeable to the provision of the Constitution, the yeas WHEREAS, Sheriff Yetzer served as an able and dedi- and nays will now be taken. cated member of this House of Representatives from 1947 to 1956, and earned the love and respect of all who knew and worked with him; and YEAS-192 WHEREAS, Mr. Yetzer is survived by his wife, Mary Yetzer and one brother and three sisters; now therefore Abraham Gelsler M&e Scheafler be it Anderson. J. H. George McGinnis Schmttt Arthum Giammareo McIntyre Schweder RESOLVED, That the House, of Representatives of the Barber Gillespie MeLane Selriea Commonwealth of Pennsylvania pauses in its delibera- Beilomlnf Giiiette Mebus Seltzer tions to mourn the passing of Harold A. Yetzer, and ex- Bennett Gleason Menhorn Bhane tends its heartfelt condolences to his wife and to the Bepen Gleeson Miller. M. E. Shelhamer family of this outstanding citizen and public servant; and Berlin Goodman Miller. M. E.. Jr. Shelton he it further Berson Green Milliron Shuman Bittle GreenReld Mircevich Shupdk RESOLVED, That a copy of this resolution be delivered Blackwell Grieco Moehlmann Sirianni to Mrs. Mary Yetzer, 521 Jefferson Street, Hyde Park, Bonetto Gring Morris SmlUt. E. Pennsylvania 15641. Bradley Halvemorn Mrkonlc Smith. L. Brandt Hamilton. J. H. Muikn. M. P. spencer LESTER K. FRYER Brunner Ilammoclr Mullen Stahl RUSSELL J. LaMARCA Burns Hasay Musto Staplctrm K. LEROY IRVIS Caputo Haskell Myers Stout JAMES J. GALLEN Ce- Hayes, D. S. Novak Taddonla HAROLD J. STAHL, JR. Ciminl Hayes. S. E. Noye Taylor Cohen Hepford O'Brien Thomas JOHN S. DAVIES Cole Hill O'CanneU Toll Cowell IiopliinS O'DonneU Treuo (Members stood in silence.) Crawford Hutchimon. A. O'Keefe Turner Cumberland 1Iutchinson. W. ouver Ustynosk~ The SPEAKER pro tempore. The resolution is unani- Davis, D. M. Irvis Paneoast Vann mously adopted. DeMedio Itkin Perrt Vroon Devertar Johmon. J. Perry Wagner Dicarlo Katz Petrarca Wansser DiDansto Kelly. A. P. Pievsky Wargo REMARKS ON LEGISLATION INTRODUCED Dietz Kelly, J. B. Pitts Weldner Dininni Kernick Polite Westerberg The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the DombralMLl Kistler Pratt Whelan Dom Klingaman Prendergest Whittlesey gentleman from Bradford, Mr. Turner. Doyle Knepper Pyles Wilson Mr. TURNER. Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a bill to Dreibelblll Kolter Rappaport Wilt. R. W. Eckell~berger Kowaiyshyn Reed Wilt. W. W. the House. I would like to be recognized, Mr. Speaker. Engiehart Kusse Renninger Wojdsk The SPEAKER pro tempore. Does the gentleman wish Fawcett LaMarca Renwick Worrilow Fee Laudadio Rhodes Wrlght to make remarks concerning the bill? Fischer Laughlin Richardson Yahner Mr. TURNER. Yes, very briefly, sir. Fisher Lederer Rieger Yohn Flaherty I.ehr Ritter Zearioss The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will pro- Foster. A. Letterman Romanell1 Zrller ceed with his remarks. Foster. W. Lev1 Ross Zord Mr. TURNER. I am submitting a piece of legislation Pryer Lincoln Ruggero Zwikl Gallagher Lynch Ryan today to the House of Representatives which represents Gallen Manderino saioom Fineman, an exemption factor in the sales tax for those people who Garzla McCall Salvatore Speakci Geese7 McClatchy were affected by the flood of Eloise. We have many people in our area across the northern tier who lost NAYS--0 property, lost personal property in the way of appliances, LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE October 16, homes, electric motors, pumps, and so forth. This bill opinion. Salient anlong the official actions of other gov- would exempt them from the sales tax. ernments are the following: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Office of the Attorney General of South Carolina has ruled that the American National REMARKS AND OPINION SUBMITTED Red Cross, as 9 quasi-federal governmental FOR THE RECORD agency, is not subject to the registration pro- visions of the Solicitation of Charitable Funds The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the Act. [April 4, 19741 gentleman from Montgomery, Mr. Beren. The Internal Revenne Service has ruled that Mr. BEREN. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. the American National Red Cross is not liable Mr. Speaker, I have some remarks to be submitted for for the tax imposed by Section 4481(a) of the the record. Internal Revenne Code, since, for purposes of The SPEAKER Pro tempore. The Chair thanks the the Federal Highway Motor Vehicle Use Tax, gentleman. use of a highway mator vehicle by the American The gentleman will send his remarks to the desk. National Red Cross is considered use by the Mr. BEREN presented the following remarks and United States [April 4, 19741. opinion for the Legislative Journal: The Minnesota Department of Revenue has ruled Mr. Speaker, on August 10, 1973, the Attorney General that the American Red as an issued an opinion that nonprofit corporations created by instrumentality of the United States, is not sub- ject state Or income laxesand has the United States Congress were, nonetheless, subject to '' registratio11 under the Solicitation of Charitable Funds reporting requirement applica- Act of Pennsylvania. Specific reference was made in ble to charitable arganizations. (March 4, 19741 that opinion to the American National Red Cross. See also Department of Employment v. United States, Following the publication of that opinion, it became 385 U,S, 355 (1966), apparent that there were conflicting prior opinions in Pennsylvania and conflicting opinions in other jurisdic- We also note that each year the American National Red Cross submits public reports to, and is subjected to tions. As a result, a new opinion was issued by the present Attorney General, written to A, Titel- audit b7, the United States Department 01 Defense; and the audited reports are transmitted to the Congress of mzn, director of the Commission on Charitable Organiza- tions, which indicated that the American National Red the United States. In the latter respect, the American Cross will voluntarily submit its audited financial state- National Red Cross is unique among the corporations to ments and that, under such conditions, the Attorney Gen- which reference was made in Official Opinion No. 58. era1 feels that it should not subject the ~me~i~~~N~- The American Red Cross, citing the authurities dis- tional Red Cross to regulation. cussed above, takes the position that the Red Cross is Mr. Speaker, because it is important this opinion be of not subject to regulation by the Solicitation of Charitable public record, I request that the entire opinion of the Funds Act. However, it will voluntarily submit its audit- Attorney General be reproduced in this Journal. ed financial statements to the Commission. Under these conditions, the Attorney General feels it appropriate to September 9, 1975 accept the procedures suggested by the American Red William A. Titelman, Director Cross and not subject the American Red Cross to regu- Commission On Charitable Orsanizations lation under the Act at this time. 301 North Offlce Building Sincerely yours, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania ROBERT P. KANE Dear Mr. Titelman: Attorney General On August 10, 1913, in response to a request from the Honorable C. DeLores Tucker, Secretary of the Com- MXMRICS ON RESOLUTION INTRODUCED monwealth, we issued our opinion that non-profit corpo- rations created by the United States Congress under Title The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the whip' 36 of the United States Code must register under the Solicitation of Charitable Funds Act [lo P.S. Sections Mr. RYAN. Mr. Speaker, I am at this time introducing 160-1 et. seq.]. Among the corporations to which a resol~tionwhich I believe has bipartisan accord, if not reference was made in that Opinion was the American in signature, at least in spirit, to look over the problems National Ited Cross. A footnote comment also withdrew of the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation. It an apparently contradictory former opinion of this office asks this House, on adoption of the resolution, to appoint with respect to the jurisdiction of the commission on a five-member bipartisan committee with subpoena pow- Charitable Organizations over the fund-raising ers and an advisory commission made up of members of of that organization. organizations interested in the Pennsylvania highway since promulgation of official opinion NO. 58, we have System and its problems, and asks that a report be made located arid reviewed two prior Opinions of this office by these groups on or before Jalluary 15 of 1976. with respect to the application of state jurisdiction over I am offering the resolution st lhis time, asking that if the American National Red Cross. In addition, several any additional sponsors care to join in it, they go to the official actions of federal and state authorities in other desk and sign. jurisdictions have led to reconsideration of our earlier Thank you, Mr. Speaker. LEGISLATIVE JOURNALHOUSE

BILLS NOT CALLED UP Mr. ZELLER. I rise lo a question of information. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The gentleman will state The SPEAKER pro tempore. Remaining bills on to- day's calendar are not called up. Mr. ZELLER. Mr. Speaker, have we acted on any of the resolutions or citations, and so forth? Have they been acted upon? It was asked me by a member, and I WELCOMES thought I would do it for him. TG SPEAKER pro tempore. We have not acted on The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair would like to any of the resolutions, welcome some guests who are here today as the guests ZELLER, Okay, of the gentleman from Bradford, Mr. Turner-Messrs. Hauck, Leker, Eastburn and Peavy, from the Masonite Corporation. GUEST PAGES COMMENDED The Chair is pleased lo acknowledge the presence to- The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes :he day of the King's College Men in Red. Obviously they gentleman from Lehigh, Mr. Zeller. are from King's College in Wilkes-Barre. Mr. ZELLER. Mr. Speaker, I would like, for the This is a choral group of 60 young men, all of whom record's sake, to pay tribute to the three young pages are students at King's College. They appeared today in who worked here the last 2 days-Mike skinner, son of the ~h~~~d~~college concert which was held at the Mr. and Mrs. Robert Skinner of Emmaus; Peter Laben- William Penn Memorial Hall. They are under the leader. berg, son of Mr. and Mrs. William ~abenbergof ~mmaus; ship of their choir director, Professor Bronis Voveris of and Curt Kemmerer, son Of Mr. and Gerald King's College. merer of Ernmans. These young men have been the re- cipients of an award on a Flag Day essay contest, and These young men ar? the guests of the Luzerne County part of their award was lo serve as pages in the House. delegation. I want to thank Mr. Pat McShane and the chief clerk's The Chair wishes at this time to welcome to the House for the tremendous cooperation they have given us Mr. and Mrs. Robert Skinner and their daughter Melissa in aiding these boys, and also immediate boss, hrr, of Emmaus, Pennsylvania. Mr. and Mrs. Skinner are Art Woolsey, who did a tremendous job in guiding the parents of our page, Michael Skinner. They are the young men, I want to thank you very much, guests of the gentleman from Lehigh, Mr. Zeller. The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair thanks thc The SPEAKER pro tempore. Does the majority leader have any further business to come before the House? I have no further business, Mr. Speaker. Mr. IRVIS. ADJOURNMENT The SPEAKER vro tempore. Has the minority whio I any further business to come before the House? Mr. ABRAHAM moved that this House do now adjourn until Monday, November 17, 1975, at 1 p.m., e.d.t., unless sooner recalled by the Speaker of the House. QUESTION OF INFORMATION On the question, The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes- the Will the House aeree- to the motion? gentleman from Lehigh, Mr. Zeller. For what purpose Motion was agreed to, and (at 520 p.m., e.d.t.) the does the gentleman rise? House adjourned.