Ipcgiaatinp Tonril Coyne Area Was Required

[Wednesday, 18 April, 1973] 1013

Committee tonight. I will be content at was submitted to the Coml- this stage If the House will pass the second monwealth Government on2 reading. 28th September, 1972, for inclusion in the National Question put and passed. Water Resources Development Bill read a second time. Programme. House adjourned at 10.48 p.m. The submission Included Geological, Agricultural and Engineering reports but additional information to provide an economic analysis of irrigated agriculture In the Gas- IPcgiaatinp Tonril coyne area was required. Wednesday, the 18th April, 1973 The economic analysis will be completed in May, 1973 and forwarded to the Common- wealth Government to enable The PRESIDENT (The Hon. L. C. Diver) the Project to be considered took the Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read further. prayers. (b) Apart from verbal confirma- tion from the Commonwealth QUESTIONS (15): ON NOTICE Government, no acknowledg- 1. DEVELOPMENT ment has been received. Pilbara Plan: Dliscussions in Tokyo, (2) No. The Ron. W. R. WITHERS, to the (3) No. Leader of the House: Will a State representative accom- 3. RAIL WAYS pany the Federal Treasurer, Mr. Perth-Leighton Line: Conversion to Crean, when he discusses the Buswvaz Western Australian Government's multi-million dollar Pilbara de- The Hon. F. R. White for The Hon. velopment project during his visit L. A. LOGAN, to the Leader of the to Tokyo next week? House: The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: (1) Is the statement made by Mr. McKenzie, the Acting Secretary of No. the Joint Railway Unions Execu- tive and the Western Australian 2. WATER SUPPLIES Amalgamated Society of Railway Car'narvon Employees, which was published in The West Australian on Tuesday, The Hon. G. W. BERRY, to the Leader the 17th April, 1973, that the of the House: Premier, Mr. Tonkin, gave an (1) With reference to paragraph 5 of assurance last July that the line the article in the Northern Times would not be closed between Perth dated the 23rd November, 1972, and Leighton, true? which stated under the headlines (2) If the answer to (1) Is "Yes", why "Major Water Conservation was clause 2 and the first schedule Scheme for Carnarvon". that "The included in the Perth Regional estimated cost of this work is $5 Railway Bill, 1972? million and a submission has already been made to the Common- The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: wealth for financial assistance to (1) Yes. enable the project to be completed in the shortest possible time"-on (2) At the time the Bill was prepared what date was-- and presented to Parliament, it (a) the submission made; and was planned that a Busway would be introduced. Complete electri- (b) the acknowledgement received fication of the existing railway from the Commonwealth Gov- system was a later decision. ernment? (2) Has any decision been made by 4. PREVENTION OF CRUELTY the Commonwealth Government? TO ANIMALS ACT (3) If not, is there any indication Vivisection when a decision might be made? The Hon. LYLA ELIOTT, to the The Ron. 3. DOLAN replied: Leader of the House: (1) (a) A submission entitled "Water (1) What experiments are carried out Supply of Carnarvon and the on animals In this State for Gascoyne Irrigation Area" scientific purposes? 1014 1014COUNCiL. I

(2) Is there adequate protection for 6. BENTLEY HOSPITAL these animals against cruelty in the Prevention of Cruelty to Accommodation and Services Animals Act? The Hon. CLIVE GRIFFITHS, to the Leader of (3) If so, are regular inspections car- the House: ried out to ensure that the provi- With regard to the Bentley Hos- sions of the Act are complied pital, would the Minister advise- with? (a) are there sufficient beds to (4) If not, will the Minister take cater for all maternity eases action to strengthen the Act to referred to the hospital by protect the animals concerned Private doctors; from unnecessary pain and suffer- (b) are any plans proposed for the ing? provision of a public ward and resident doctor service at The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: the hospital; (1) Experiments carried out on animals (c) is it intended to provide a in this State for scientific purposes casualty section at the hocs- relate to medical disciplines such pital? as human disease and pharma- cology and to other scientific prob- The Hon. J, DOLAN replied: lems such as those concerned with animal health. (a) No. (b) No. (2) Yes. (c) Improved outpatient facilities (3) Vivisectionists are all responsible, and a limited casualty section professionally skilled people who are being planned. The suc- have to apply to and be approved cessful operation of the ca- by the Commissioner of Public sualty section will depend on Health before they are permitted the co-operation of the local to undertake vivisection. Regular medical practitioners using Inspections are not considered to the hospital in rostering themn- be necessary. selves for emergency service. (4) Action to strengthen the Act is not considered to be necessary. 7. LIQUOR ACT Regulations 5. COURT OF PETTY SESSIONS The Hon. I. G. MEDCALF, to the Leader of the House: Albany Case: Ministerial Intervenion (1) Will the Government give consid- The Ron. D). J. WORDSWORTH, to eration to amending Rule 13A of the House: made under the Liquor Act, 1970- the Leader 1972, to ensure that profit and (1) Did the Premier and the Attorney- loss accounts for the preceding two General intervene in the actions years relating to the running of an being taken by a Court In Albany objecting licensee's business are in regard to violations to the produced for Inspection only to Traffic Act? the solicitor of the applicant and to the Court on a confidential (2) if so, was the newspaper report basis, immediately prior to or dur- in The West Australian dated ing the hearing, thus making the Saturday, the 14th April, 1973, rule conform to the existing correct in stating that Ministers practice now generally accepted by had written letters on this subject? all parties, and thereby preventing the Possible misuse of confiden- (3) If so. will the Minister table all tial information? Ministerial correspondence in this regard? (2) if the Government will not agree to this amendment, will the Min- The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: ister be Prepared to discuss objec- tions to the proposed new Rule (1) to (3) The Hon. Member is 13A prior to the expiration of the referred to the answers given by time allowed by the Interpreta- the Hon. Premier and the Attorney- tion Act for its disallowance? General to questions asked in the Legislative Assembly by the Hon. The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: R. O'Connor, M.L.A. (Without (1) The Court has issued an instruc- Notice) on 17th April. 1973. All tion that no person is to be per- Papers were tabled in the Legis- mitted to examine the statement lative Assembly on that date. and books without an officer of [Wednesday. 18 April, 1973] 1015

the Court being in attendance and The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: at no time will the documents Prices paid to producers were as leave the Court premises. follows:- (2) The instruction is considered to 30 lb lamb 1971 1972 1973 be an adequate safeguard. March 5.64 6.03 7.80 8. WESTERN AUSTRALIAN PRODUCTS April 6.00 5.85 8.10 SYMBOL 35 lb lamb Advertisement in Eastern States March 6.58 7.03 9.10 The Hon. W. R. WITHERS, to the April 7.00 6.82 9.45 Leader of the House: 40 lb, lamb (1) Has the Minister authorised the March No prices are 9.20 promotion of goods produced in April available from 9.60 Western Australia for advertising Australian on the Eastern States' television Meat Hoard channels, and also for the use of records the film depicting the Western Note: Australian products symbol? Prices shown for 1971 and 1972 are (2) If not, would he give this some Australian Meat Board monthly consideration? averages and are for 1st and 2nd quality export lambs. The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: Prices shown for 1973 are weekly (1) There is no limitation to the use Lamb Marketing Board prices. of the Western Australian pro- All Prices exclude skin values. ducts symbol by Western Aus- tralian manufacturers for advertising and promotional purposes. 11. KANGAROOS The local products campaign con- Meat and Skins: Export ducted by the Government is limited to Western Australia for The Hon. F. R. White for The Hon. financial reasons. L. A. LOGAN, to the Leader of the House: (2) Extension of the local products (1) Has the State Government made campaign to other States in the any representations to the F'ederal future will depend on the availa- Government asking them to bility of funds. The matter is remove the embargo they placed continually under review. on the export of kangaroo skins and meat? 9. AIR STRIP: CARNARVON (2) If the answer to (1) is "Yes", what Upgrading has been the result of the representations? The Hon. 0. W. BERRY, to the Leader (3) What is the present position of the of the House: Policy on kangaroos which was (1) Is it intended to upgrade Car- agreed upon by all sections of the narvon air strip to accommodate industry and the Government? DCS jet aircraft? The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: (2) If so, when? (1) Yes, repeatedly. The Hon. J7.DOLAN replied: (2) The Commonwealth Government (1) and (2) No. There is no intention has established a working party to operate flC9 aircraft into Car- to examine ways and means of narvon at the present time. establishing an Australian-wide management and monitoring 10. LAMBS scheme acceptable to the Com- monwealth as a precursor to the Prices Minister for Customs giving The Hon. J. HEITMAN, to the Leader further consideration to the export of the House: ban and making representations to the American Government to What was the price paid for- allow the import of Kangaroo (a) 30 lb.: products into the United States. (b) 35 lb.; and (3) Unaltered at the moment but to be acceptable to the Commonwealth (c) 40 lb.; Government some slight modifica- lambs during the period the 1st tions may be required. However, March to the 14th April In each the Position is not at all clear at of the years 1971, 1972 and 1973? the Present time. 1016 tCOUNCIL.l

12. PORT OF ESPERANCE (2) (a) No-see details of available depth in answer to question Wage Levy 1 (a). The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH, to (b) No-however It would be pos- the Leader of the House: sible, by additional dredging, What action is the Department to provide sufficient depth at of Development and Decentralisa- the slipway site for slipping tion taking to reduce the effect the tug Boolathana or vessels of changes in the system of cal- of similar dimensions, at a culating the port wage levy an light draft of 3.3 metres at the Port of Esperance which has normal high tides. This possi- resulted in a Present rate of $1.20 bility has been discussed per man hour as against the informally with representa- former State average of 40 cents? tives of the Company. The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: (3) It Is anticipated that dredging will commence at the end of May. Discussions have been held with 1973. the Association of Employers of Waterside Labour on this subject, 14. MARINE and it is understood that the FACILITIES: CARNARVON Australian Government is review- Press Statement ing the matter and giving consideration to a standard levy for all The Hon. 0. W. BERRY. to the Australian ports. Leader of the House: With reference to the article 13. FISHERIES headed "$589,000 contract for Marine Facilities" published in Carnarvon Harbour the Northern Times on Thursday. The Hon. 0. W. BERRY, to the Leader the 12th April, 1973, would the of the House: Minister advise why the press Referring to the announcement of statement forwarded to the Mem- the dredging contract for the fish- ber for the Lower North Province Ing was headed "Embargo-not for vessel harbour at Carnarvon- use until Monday, the 16th April. (1) (a) Will the harbour be able 1973"? to handle Norwest Whal- ing Company's and inde- The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: pendent prawning boats; Following notification of accept- ance of the tender of Dredging (b) was the Norwest Whal- Industries (Aust.) Pty. Ltd., for ing Company and inde- the dredging works at Carnarvon, pendent boat owners con- a press release was prepared on sulted when plans were Friday, the 13th April. being drawn up? Experience has shown that such (2) (a) Will the harbour be able important releases are likely to to handle Texada Mines be given little prominence in the Ltd. tug boats: weekend publications because of other items of news. In the cir- (b) was Texada Mines LWd. cumstances it was decided that a consulted when plans better cover would be obtained if were being drawn up? the release was embargoed until (3) When is it anticipated work Monday, the 16th April. will commence? The news item appearing in the issue of the Northern Times on The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: the 12th April. was not authorised (1) (a) Yes-the harbour will be by my office and was published dredged to a depth of 3.0 without my knowledge. metres below low water mark and will be suitable for vessels up to 2.7 metres draft at all 15. LAND states of the tide. Conditional Purchase Blocks: Boyatup (b) The requirements for the boat harbour, which were deter- The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH, to mined in consultation with the Leader of the House: various Government Depart- (1) Are there still about thirty condi- ments involved including the tional purchase blocks surveyed Harbour and Light Depart- but not allocated in the Boyatup ment and the Department of area, east of Esperance? Fisheries and Fauna, were (2) Would these blocks complement discussed with the Norwest blocks already thrown open in the Whaling Company. vicinity, thereby making schools, (Wednesday, 18 April, 19731 111017 roads, telephone, mail and bush right to impose a license fee now. No fee fire control, more feasible and was imposed at the time the Government economic for those already In the instituted licensing because the controls district? introduced severely restricted grower acti- (3) (a) What is the rainfall in the vities, Furthermore, whilst licensing was Hoyatup subdivision; and designed to protect the aquifers, the long- (b) Is the rainfall suitable for the term benefits likely to flow from the con- breeding of livestock? trols were not then clear. However, it is now apparent that the controls were suc- (4) Are there ample applicants wish- cessful in stabilising the Industry. The ing to take up these blocks? result Is that the area irrigated has In- (5) Is the proposal for an abattoir at creased from 886 acres in 1959-60, to Esperane being held up because 1,681 acres in 1970-7 1. At the same time of lack of stock numbers in the the yield per acre has risen. district? (6) How does the State Government The honourable member next claimed Justify price control of such items that the river Is no more stable now than as meat if It is withholding pro- it was ini 1958-59. If this statement is cor- duction? rect, how does he explain the increase in the area irrigated and the trebling of plan- The Hon. J. DOLAN replied: tation property values since 1960? Members 41) and (2) No. can be assured that It would not have been (3) A five year average to 1968 was 18 possible to achieve this increase in area inches. irrigated, with a better yield per acre, If Improvements bad not been made to the (4) The Lands Department has ceived only a few inquiries for there- water supply. release of land in this area. Mr. Berry then referred to the fact that (5) No. the work carried out by the Government (6) Answered by (1). had not been tested because the river had flowed every year since 1960. This state- LOCAL GOVERNMNT ACT ment is correct, and it is also true that the AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) aquifers at present developed are only capable of meeting the normal demands until Introduction and First Reading September this year, unless there is a Bill introduced, on motion by The H-on. river flow this winter. In other words, the R. H. C. Stubbs (Minister for Local Gov- area can withstand a 13-month period ernment), and read a first time. without a river flow at the present time. This Period will be extended with the com- RIGHTS IN WATER AND IRRIGATION pletion of work to develop additional aquifers currently being carried out at a cost ACT of $440,000. Disallowance of Regulation: Motion The honourable member then suggested Debate resumed, from the 11th April, on that if the regulation is not challenged the the following motion by The Eon. G. W. Government will see fit to Increase the Berry- charge from time to time. My comment That the regulation relating to con- here is, of course, the Government of the struction and alteration of wells made day could Increase the charge, but it could under the Rights in Water and Irriga- only do so by amending the regulations tion Act, 1914-1971, published in the and such action would be open to chal- Government Gazette on Friday, the lenge, as Is the case now. 2nd February. 1973, and laid upon the Table of the House on Tuesday, the I have the assurance of the Minister for 20th March, 1973, be and is hereby Water Supplies that It is not his intention disallowed. to have this charge incorporated in the regulations and then to increase it in- THE HON. J. DOLAN (South-East mediately. Any increase In license fees in Metropolitan-Leader of the House) 14.47 future would have to be justified. psni: In moving the motion for the dis- During the course of his speech the allowance of the regulation under the honourable member referred to two-thirds Rights in Water and Irrigation Act relating of the town's water supply coming from the to the construction and alteration of wells, pilot scheme. This is correct. In recent iublished in the Government Gazette on weeks, 3,500,000 gallons per week have been 3'riday. the 2nd February, 1973, Mr. Berry consumed for purposes other than Irriga- -;upported his arguments with a number of tion. But in the same period 7,000,000 gal- statements which require comment. lons of water per week have been supplied Firstly, he pointed out that 10j years had to plantations from the pilot scheme. elapsed between the Proclamation of the Therefore, while two-thirds of the town amending Act and the gazettaI of the new supply comes from the pilot scheme, this charges. He implied that because of this represents only one-third of the water delay the Government had forfeited the drawn. (S61 1018 rcotrNCn.. Since the river ceased flowing In August. Carnarvon irrigation area. While it Would 1972, the scheme has supplied 271,00,000 be loath to do anything to jeopardise the gallons. and 173,00.000 gallons of this grower's water supply, consideration would water has gone to plantation owners. have to be given to abandoning the prac- The honourable member then claimed tice of grading up levee banks at the end that since 1962 no additional water supply of river flows. has been located. This is not true. Im- This work prevents the escape of water provemnents to date have harnessed aqui- to the sea and ensures the maximum refers containing an estimated 440.000.000 charge of the downstream aquifers and gallons, which is an increase of 45 per cent. distribution to the northern side of the over the 990,000,000 gallons estimated to be river. Expenditure on this work in recent con"rtained in the easily recharged aquifers years has been in the order of $3,000 per in the plantation area, which were the only annum. ones in use prior to the Government taking The department, by carrying out this control. conservation, ensures that growers obtain This additional quantity of water is the maximum quantity of water for which taken into account by the advisory com- there is no charge. mittee when fixing the amount of water Members may not be aware that, al- which growers may use, and in effect all though the growers' pumps have meters growers are receiving the benefit of an installed, this is only to regulate the additional 45 per cent, over the 1960 re- amount of water drawn and not for the serves. In the 440,000,000 gallons of addi- purpose of Imposing a charge. I oppose tional water, no account is taken of the the motion. supply which will be developed as a result Debate adjourned until Tuesday, the 1st of the work currently being carried out. May, on motion by The Hon. Di. J. It is arced that no new properties have Wordsworth. opened up on the banks of the river since 1960, but what was not stated by the mover of the motion was that, except for MI2NING ACT AMENDMENT BILL the efforts of the Public Works Department Third Reading in developing additional resources, 20 properties cropping approximately 200 Bill read a third time, on motion by The acres would no longer be in business. These Hon. R. H. C. Stubbs (Minister for Local properties on the south bank at the eastern Government), and passed. extremity of the irrigation area were in difficulties with a saline water supply at TAXI-CARS (CO-ORDIENATION AND the time the Government assumed control. CONTROL) ACT AMENDMENT BILL The Government's action in policing water usage and developing new resources en- Second Reading abled their Properties to remain productive. THE B!OlL J7. DOLAN (South-East The final point I would like to comment Metropolitan-Leader of the House) [4.57 on is the claim that the Government has p~m.]: I move- not removed the worry caused by the That the Bill be now read a second threat of drought. If there is a prolonged time. period without a substantial river flow, On the 19th April, 1972, Mr. H. 0. Smith, such as is being experienced at the present retired stipendiary magistrate, was ap- time, restrictions are Inevitable. However, pointed by the Government to Inquire into how much worse off would the district be the taxi industry in the metropolitan area. if it were not for the work which has been This was conducted as an open inquiry and Is currently being carried out to de- and the terms of reference covered all velop new resources? facets of the taxi industry. At its com- The $30 license fee is nominal and will pletion, Mr. Smith made certain recom- not in total per annum. equate to 1 per cent. mendations. These were referred to and of the funds spent on the project in recent supported by the Taxi Control Board. years. Briefly, the recommendations reqtuiring I wish to make some additional comments. amendments to the Act are as follows-- No other irrigation area is subject to a (1) Two persons, namely an owner license fee, therefore it is not possible to and a full-time driver, to be members make a comparison. However, it is rele- of the Taxi Control Board. Previously vant that the deficiency between income the Act provided that both may be and operating expenses at Carnarvon is owners or both may be full-time oper- proportionately greater than any other ators. Irrigation area. The license fee was (2) All moneys received by the board designed to provide a modest increase in as or on account Of premiums, should revenue to help with this deficit. be paid to the credit of the Taxi Con- If it is Parliament's wish that the license trol Fund, thus ensuring that the board fee be not imposed, the Public Works has sufficient financial resources to Department will have to re-examine Its administer the control of taxi-cars and expenditure programme in regard to the the conduct of operators. (Wednesday. 18 April, 19731 111019 (3) Provision be made that of the under the Act but probably involving the three members of the board referred to temporary transfer of certain essential in paragraphs (b) and (e), of sub- equipment from the disabled to the substi- section (4) of section 5 of the Act, not tute car under section 16 (2) (a).- more than one shall be a person bald- The main purpose of this Bill Is to Ing office in any one company carrying implement these recommendations. Fur- on business in the taxi industry. thermore, the definitions of "operate" and (41 Provision be made that the "taxi-car" have been more clearly worded. number of taxi-cars that may be The Bill also defines a taxi-stand for the licensed to operate within the metro- purposes of providing authority for an politan area shall be determined by inspector to request the name of the the Taxi Control Board, having regard driver of a private vehicle who parks his to the reasonable requirements of the vehicle on a taxi-stand. Population of that area, provided that Other amendments include:, Firstly, a the number of such taxi-cars shall not, provision for a person, nominated in writ- at any time, be more than one to every Ing by the commissioner, to act as chair- 300 of the population of that area. man In the event of the absence of the (5) Provision be made for a refund commissioner and the deputy commissioner. of the full amount, or such lesser pro- Secondly, for administrative purposes it is portion as the board, having regard Proposed that the board, when authorised to all the circumstances of the case, by the Minister, may delegate specific shall recommend, of any moneys paid powers and functions. as or on account of a premium. At present, the board is empowered to suspend a. taxi-car license, but at least a At the present time provision is made quorum of four members Is required to for a refund of all premiums paid, if a conduct the business of the board. It is person surrenders the license within a considered appropriate, however, to be period of five years from the date of enabled to delegate specific authority to the issue. commissioner, or deputy commissioner, (6) Provision be made that~- rather than call a special meeting of the (I) A taxi-car license. as well as board should occasion arise requiring the vehicle itself, may be immediate action. Such flexibility In ad- charged with the repayment of ministrative procedure is a desirable im- money advanced for the pur- provement, safeguarded by ministerial pose therein referred to; control over the power of delegation. (hi) any transaction, whereby it Is Finally, there Is a provision for the intended that a taxi-car surrender of number plates where license license shall be accepted as or premium Payments have not been paid. security for moneys so ad- Seizure of plates cannot be effected under vanced to the holder of such the Act at present and it is desirable that, a license, shall be registered in such circumstances, the board may be at the office of the board empowered to take possession of the whose approval of the trans- Plates. I comnmend the Bill to the House. action shall be a condition Debate adjourned, on motion by The precedent to such registration. Hon. (3. C. MacKinnon. (7) (1) The definition of "owner" in section 3 of the Act be amended by ELECTORAL ACT AMENDMENT BILL inserting alter the word "includes" in Second Reading: Defeated line 3, the passage "unless repugnant to the context". Debate resumed from the 17th April. The definition of "owner", in section 3, THE RON. L. D. ELLIOTT (North-East which includes "a person having the use of Metropolitan) [5.03 P.m.): I wish to sup- the vehicle under an agreement for its.. port the Bill now before the House and In lease" seemns inappropriate when applied to so doing I will speak to the main principle the owner as contemplated in subsections of the measure: the question of first-past- (3) and (4) of section 18 and subsection the-post (1) of section 18A. Insertion of the pass- voting as compared with prefer- age proposed is not considered necessary. ential voting. To continue- Firstly, I will read a paragraph from a (ii) That the Act be amended to letter whichi appeared In The West Austra- clarify the situation concern- lian several years ago when there was some ing the provision of number controversy about this very question. The plates for a substitute vehicle letter was written by Mr. David Black, referred to in section 1VA of leturer in history and politics at the the Act. Western Australian Institute of Tech- Existing provisions of section 17A of the nology. The paragraph of the letter was Act could give rise to confusion where per- as follows- mission has been granted to operate a The preferential system Is used In substitute vehicle, the use of which Is then Australia, not because It Is the fairest allowed as if the vehicle were licensed system-it is not used in Britain, New 1020 1020cOUNCIL.]

Zealand, the U.S., France or Germany Labor Party 59 seats. The Liberal Party -but because it suits the interest of received 34.78 per cent, of the vote, which those parties which have a controlling represented 46 seats. The Country Party interest in Australian Parliaments at received only 8.54 per cent. of the vote. present. representing 20 seats. The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: That is an The combined vote of the Liberal and opinion, and not a fact, of course. Country Parties was 43.32 per cent., ac- The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: I agree with counting for 66 seats, against the Labor the opinion expressed by Mr. David Black. vote of 46.97 per cent., accounting for 59 The Hair G. C. MacKinnon: It should seats. The labor Party actually polled be clearly understood that it is an opinion 222,404 votes more than the combined and not a fact. Liberal and Country Party votes. The Ron. L. D). ELLIOTT: I will refer The Non. 0. C. MacKinnon: That is the to the various Governments which have most "shonky" reasoning I have ever introduced the preferential system of vot- heard. Ing. in every case it was introduced by The Hon, L. D. ELLIOTT: it has been anti-Labor Governments--by Liberal Gov- quoted by respected analysts of political ernments, or by Nationalist Governments. systems. The system was Introduced into our Federal Parliament by the Hughes Nation- The Hon, 0. C. MacKinnon: The reason- alist Government In 1918; in Queensland ing is a disgrace. by the Griffith Liberal Government in The Hon. L. Dl. ELLIOTT: one of the 1892; in Victoria by the Murray Liberal respected persons to whom I refer is Mr. Government In 1911; in Western Australia Malcolm MeKerras. and he referred to by the Wilson Liberal Government In 1911;, the previous Federal Government as a in South Australia by the Butler Liberal "second preference Government". It is Government in 1929; and in New South quite wrong to claim that a, candidate who Wales by the Nationalist-Country Party is elected under the preferential system is Government in 1928. In Tasmania the the person wanted by most of the people Evans Liberal Government introduced the in the electorate, and I will illustrate to Hare-Clarke system in 1907. members what I mean by that statement, It is quite evident that each time the Most members are aware that the preferential system was introduced it was majority of people vote according to their not because it was the fairest system, but bow-to-vote cards. They follow the cards because It was a system aimed to keep of their respective parties, and usually Labor Governments out of office. At the they are only concerned with the first time there were two conservative parties. preference. Some People do pay attention The Hon. A. P. Griffith: The system did to the second preference, but in the main not succeed in Tasmania. they follow their cards. The Hon. L. D). ELLIOTT: One of the The Hon. W. R. Withers: They do not. conservative parties to which I have re- There is evidence of that in this House ferred was the Country Party, and those because Mr. Hunt and I both represent in Government, at the time, realised that the same area. if they continued with the first-past-the- The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: I said I would post system their vote would be split and show that it is not correct to claim that they would lose elections to the Labor the person who is elected always receives Party. the majority support, and is the person The Hon. A. P. Griffith: I would think most people in the electorate want as that would be right, too. their representative. The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: I am glad I will refer, first of all, to the seat of the Leader of the Opposition agrees. Canning and what occurred in the 1969 The Hon. A. F. Griffith: The object of Federal election. I do not want to weary this Bill is to split the non-Labor vote so members by quoting too many figures but that Labor will remain in office. I have to use some to illustrate my point. On the occasion to which I have referred The Ron. L. D. ElIOT0T: Mr. David the D.L.P. candidate. Mr. Bailey, received Black, to whom I have already referred, 2,617 votes. The Country Party candi- mentioned several overseas countries In date, Mr. Hallett, received 14,445 votes, the western world which operate under which represented 30 per cent, of the total the first-past-the- post system. I have in primary votes. my hand a list of 63 countries which use The Hion. A. F. Griffith: What was that the first-past-the-post system of voting. figure? The Labor Party has received the majority of votes in both State and Fed- The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: The figure eral elections for many years. The total was 14,445. vote for the Labor Party in the 1969 elec- The Hon. V. J. Ferry: What was, the tion, was 40.97 per cent., which gave the percentage? [Wednesday, 18 April, 1973]102 1021

The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: It was 30 per The Hon. A. F. Griffith: That would cent. To continue: The Liberal candidate. mean the Liberal candidate received Mr. Pennington, received 10,722 votes; and l0/47ths of the total. Mr. Scott, the A.L.P. candidate received 20,214 votes representing 42 per cent. of The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: I do not see the total primary vote. The total number that that is relevant to my argument, and of votes cast was 47,998. I think I have made the point I set out to make. The Hon. A. F. Griffth:. What was the The Hon. R, Thompson: The honourable percentage of the Liberal candidate? member has made it very well, too. The Hion. L. D. ELLIOTT: I have worked The Hon. A. F. Griffith: The figures out the percentages for the Country Party quoted show that 42 per cent, of the people candidate and the A.LP. candidate, only. did not want the A.L.P. candidate. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Why? The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: The second The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: The ques- preferences of the Labor candidates are tion has nothing to do with the case I very seldom counted. It is an injustice am trying to present. As we are all aware, that Labor Party supporters can exercise the candidates who received the lowest only one vote whereas other party sup- number of primary votes in the 1969 elec- porters can exercise two, three, four, or tion were eliminated-the D.L.P. candidate five preferences. and the Liberal candidlate were eliminated The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: How many -leaving Mr. Hallett and Mr. Scott. Mr. choices does the Country Party have? Hallett was elected because he received the second preferences from Mr. Penning- The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon; Arrange for the Labor Party to receive fewer votes and ton and Mr. Bailey, the Liberal and D.L candidates respectively. However, the pre-'P.' be elimnated, and then they can be fences of the Labor candidate, Mr. Scott, counted. were never counted. The I-on. L. D. ELLIOTT: If members The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Of course they of the opposition were really concerned were not. about observing the wishes of the majority The lion. L. D. ELLIOTT: Allow me to of the voting public, they would support explain. A total of 20,214 people voted for this Bill. Mr. Scott. When the name of a Labor The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Cut it aut! candidate appears last on the ballot paper, The Hon. 0. C, MacKinnon; You have the Labor Party usually runs the numbers to be joking. up the how-ta-vote card, for convenience. That would mean that Mr. Pennlngton The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: I will explain would have received the second prefer- why I say that. The results of a Gallup ences, because the Liberal Party was poll were Published in the Daily News an second, the Country Party third, and the the 25th October, 1972. The article accom- D.L.P. fourth when numbering from the panying the results began- bottom of the card. Mr. Hallett was More than half the people voting at elected with about 27,000 votes after re- the Federal election on December 2 ceiving the second preferences of the DL.P. will mark their preferences reluctantly. and Liberal candidates. As I have said, They would prefer to be voting "first the A.L.P. second preferences were not past the post," the Gallup Poll says. counted but if 20,000 people had given The result of the poll was that 54 per cent. their second preference to Mr. Pennington said they would prefer first-past-the-post he would have received over 30,000 votes. voting, 39 per cent. wanted preferential The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: That means voting, and 7 per cent. were undecided. the Labor vote would have been counted The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Who ran twice. the Gallup Poll? The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: If the Oppo- The Hon. W. Rt. Withers: Do you know sition were consistent It would have to of any person who was asked those ques- agree that the person elected, Mr. Hallett, tions in the Gallup pall? did not receive a majority vote because he received only some 27,000 votes as against The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: I think it Is a possible 30,000 votes to Mr. Pennington. generally conceded that Gallup polls are Therefore, I do not think it can be said fairly close to the mark. Very seldom are that the preferential system of voting is they far wrong. the fairest because the man who is elected The Ron. W. R. Withers: They have does not always receive the majority made many mistakes. support. The Hon. L. D. ELLITOTT: I am prepared The Hon. A. F. Griffith: How many to accept that that Gallup poll faithfully people voted in the Canning electorate? reflected what the Public of Australia wants The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: A total of in respect of the method of voting. The 47.998 people voted. That Is the total of preferential system has been responsible the primary votes; I have not included the for many wasted or informal votes, par- informal votes. ticularly by migrants, I would say, because 1022 1022[COUNCIL.] they come from countries which use the issues like Vietnam and so forth. So I be- tart-pst-the-post system, and they are lieve the D.L.P. has been successful In very surprised, when they become eligible blackmailing those parties to adopt part of to vote in this country, to find what they what it wanted by saying, "If you do not regard as an unnecessarily complicated do this we will withdraw our support." The system. D.L.P. has also been playing one party off I believe the majority of informal votes against the other-the Country Party result from the fact that people become against the Liberal Party-by saying, "If confused. They are nervous when they go You do not do this we will take away our into the polling booth and they do not second preferences." I believe the Liberal understand what preferential voting meanis and Country Parties have fallen for this or how to record a formal vote. I say this tactic. because the longer the list of candidates For those reasons -I support the Bill and the higher the Percentage of informal hope it passes this House of Review. votes. In a single member constituency the Proportion of informal votes usually THE HON. N. MeNE ILL (Lower West) ranges from 2 to 4 per cent., whereas in a [5.22 p.m.): I have been drawn into the Senate election it is as high as 10 Per cent. debate, although it was not my Intention I believe this is due to the fact that people to Participate in it at all. In view of the are confronted with a long list of names examination which has Just been made by and when they go into the booth they do Miss Elliott. I feel I must at least make not know what they are doing. I also think some observations-and all she did was that the change in attitude on the part of make observations which were subjected to the electorate is due to the fact that we the Interpretation which she was prepared have so many migrants coming to this to place on them. I do not argue with that: country, particularly from Britain where it is perfectly right and proper for her to the first-past-the-post system has pre- give that sort of interpretation to the re- vailed for so long. sults. The Hon. R. J. L. Williams: They do not The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: Biased 'have compulsory voting there. though they may be. The Hon. L. D. ELLIOTT: I do not think compulsory voting has anything to do with The Hon. N. MeNEILL: First of all, I the preferential and first-past-the -post refer to the comments Miss Elliott made systems. It is an entirely different thing. towards the end of her speech, When speaking of the point of view of the Flinally, I do not think first-past-the- minority parties, she used the opportunity post voting would prevent the formation to launch some sort of an attack-I think of new or small parties, but it would pre- that would be the appropriate word--on vent small minority groups in the com- the D.L.P. I do not intend to defend the munity exploiting the electoral system in D.L.P.; I am not necessarily in a position what I regard as a very unhealthy and n- to do that. However, I believe Miss democratic way. Elliott's comments need some enlargement. I refer particularly to the D.L.P. That Whilst Miss Elliott and others may organisation camne into existence for one describe the activities of the mino- purpose only, and that was to destroy the rity parties-and in particular the Australian Labor Party. It did not suc- D.L.P.-as a form of blackmail of ceed and it did not have a hope of succeed- the Liberal and Country Parties, could ing. It did some damage for a while it not also be inferred, implied, or under- through the character assassination and stood that the exercise of a Power by a smear tactics in which it indulged, but minority group is nothing more nor less people woke up to the type of organisation than the exercise of an influence by the It was and it soon lost support. It has not people in a minority group in the com- been able to blackmail the Australian munity? If that is not a democratic ex- Labor Party to change its policy to suit the pression of the Point of view of a minority, whims of the D.L.P. The A.L.P. has re- I do not know what is. If those expres- mained faithful to its policy-making ma- sions are related simply to a political party, chinery and has not been swayed in any as though that political Party consisted of way by this extreme right-wing group. a unit which might be described as a However, I believe the political situation pressure group, there may be some grounds in this country has suffered because of the for what Miss Elliott said. I anm not saying existence of the D.L.P., which has been there are such grounds but that there may successful in blackmailing the Liberal be. However, those people are in fact the and Country Parties as regards the form- representatives of between 5 and 10 Per ation of their policies, particularly in the cent. of the population of Australia. and field of foreign affairs. The previous Fed- surely it is not unreasonable that this 5 eral Government would probably have or 10 per cent. of the population of Aus- recognised China years ago, or It would tralia be entitled to express a point of view certainly have had a more realistic and and influence the major parties If they up-to-date attitude towards China and are capable of doing so. [Wednesday, 18 April, 1973]

In fact, I believe there Is a responsibility The PRESIDENT; Order!I I ask members on the Government-quite apart from the to refrain from Interjecting. Mr, McNeill major party it happens to represent-to will continue. respect the opinions, views, and policies of The Hon. N. McNEIhL: The expression I the minority groups In the community, was waiting for someone to mention was, irrespective of whether they are political "Unity ticket", which was, of course, tied groups or other types of organlssattons. to the question of communism. That Is The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I understand where a division of opinion occurred within that was the case in the formation of the the A.L.P, ranks. I do not pose myself as United Farmers and Graziers Party. an expert on the inner workings of the The Hon. N. McNETLL: Miss Elliott Bald A.L.P.. but clearly that is bow the matter that the D.LP. was created for a particu- was understood by the public of Australia. lar purpose. I cannot recall her words However, that is a political argument, and exactly I repeat that the D.L.P. arose because of but I think she said the purpose the question of communism and because was to destroy the Australian labor Party. of the existence of the unity ticket, and for The Hon. Rt. F. Claughton: It is a state- this reason the D.L.P. has traditionally ment of fact. been very strong In the State of Victoria. The lion. N. MeNEILL: If I am not right, I Pass from that matter and return to I will accept correction. However, in my the more Philosophical argument, if I may understanding, the D.L.P. came into being put it that way, about the right of minority as a result of a split within the Labor groups in Australia at least to exercise Party following a conference in Hobart their influence by voting at the polls. Let years ago. Out of that major split within us see what Would happen with the first- the A.L.P. organisation In Australia came past-the-post system. the DILP. you think Miss Elliott used as an example the fig- The Ron. Rt. P. Claughton:,Do ures for the Federal electorate of Canning that is where It started? in 1969. 1 may be excused for exercising a The Hon. N. McNEILL: I am saying that certain paternal attitude towards the Fed- is where I believe it started. eral division of Canning. The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: That Is She related the figures of that electorate where the D.L.P. started. The industrial and indicated that some 42 per cent of the groupers were In before that, but that is People voted for the A.L.P. candidate (Mr. where the D.L.P. started. Scott); 30 per cent, voted for the Country Party candidate; about 20 per cent. voted The PRESIDENT: Order! Order! for the Liberal Party candidate; and the The Hon. N. McNflLL: I am not claim- D.L.P. candidate received 2,600 votes out of ing that what I am saying is the absolute a total of 47,998. Situation. I am saying I understood that was when the D.L.P. came into existence The Hon. A. F. Griffith: The non-Labor as a political group; It arose out of that vote would be about- major Split within the A.L.P. following the The Hon. N. MoN'EILL: As I am sure the Hobart conference in 1949, or whenever it Leader of the Opposition Is about to say, was. I may be wrong about that, but the the non-Labor vote was in excess of 50 fact remains that is when it became a per cent. H-ad first-past-the-post voting political force in this country, and I repeat been In use at that election, 42 per cent. that it arose out of a major split In the of the people of Canning would have A.L.P. organisation. And what was the elected a member of Parliament, and more Issue? than 50 Per cent. of the people would not have been represented at all in Parliament The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Commu- because their votes would not have been nism. counted. So the 2,600 people who voted The Hon. N. McNEU.L: Communism, for the D.L.P., the 14,500 approximately yes, but what was the expression applying who voted for the Country Party, and the to the voting procedures throughout the 10,000 approximately who voted for the A.L.P.7 Liberal Party would have received no representation of their beliefs and philoso- The Hon. L. D. Elliott: The Issue was foreign affairs, and the policies adopted by phies in the Federal Parliament. the Labor Party in 1955 are now the poli- To extend that a little further, some cies of Australia. might ask, "Are those people entitled to be represented?" At least under the prefer- The Hon. 0. C. McKinnon: Unfortu- ential system of voting those People-who nately! made up more than 50 per cent, of the The Hon. D. K. Dana: The majority of electorate-are able to exercise some in- people think they are correct. fluence over the form of Government they shall have; they exercise that influence by The PRESIDENT: Order! virtue of their second preference votes on The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Recognise the the ballot paper. I will not propound the reds and forget the rest of the world. belief that preferential voting as we have 1024 124[COUNCIL.]

It today is the ultimate and ideal system. a system could be devised in which the I am sure members will appreciate that I second Preference carries a value not as suffered as a result of It. great as the primary vote, but of more The Hon. J. Dolan: You didn't suffer at value than it would have under the present the last election. Bim; but how does one produce such a The Hon. N. McNEILL: I do not think it voting system? I know the matter has Is the absolute ideal, but It is far closer to been investigated by people with tremen- the Ideal than first past the post, dous brains. The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: Under first- The Ron. D. K. Dans: The only reason past-the-post voting you would stil be in the D.L.P. Is represented In the Federal the Federal Parliament. Parliament is because of the proportional representation of the Senate. There Is no The Hon. N. MoNElL: Yes, on the D.L.P. member In the House of Repre- basis of the 1963 election. sentatives. The Hon. J. Dolan: He would not be The Hon. N. MoNEILL: I1will ignore all In this place today. interjeotions. I am sure I will have the The Hon. 0. C. Mac~innon: What a opportunity to converse with the honour- silly statement! He cannot be In two able member on another occasion. places at oncel Let me return to the point: Miss Elliott The PRESIDENT: Order! quoted figures from a Gallup poil which indicated that the majority of people ap- The Hon. N. McNEILL: I ain terribly pear to favour the first-past-the-post gratified because members opposite have system. That is simply because it Is easier acknowledged the fact that if first-past- for them to vote under that system. They the-post voting applied in 1963 I could do not have to be concerned about casting still be a Federal member, despite the fact second, third, fourth, or fifth preference that at the Federal election to which Miss votes. That would not be necessary be- Elliott referred the Labor Party received cause only the primary votes would count. the majority of votes. I repeat that we are not at all deluded The Hon. W. F. Wiilesee: You cannot by this move of the Government. We be ... clearly see it as a political manoeuvre on The Hon. N. MoNEILL: I am also very the part of the A.L.P. In order that it may pleased that we have at last brought Mr. gain the greatest number of seats possible Willesee back Into the debate. I am always In the Parliament. interested in his observations. Govern- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: They know ment members seem to be acknowledging full well It will not be passed. the fact that had I continued to be the The Hon. N. MeNEILL: I agree; memn- Federal member from 1903 onwards, the bers opposite know the Bill is not likely Labor Party would not have received the to pass this House for that reason. They greatest number of primary votes In the wili use its defeat to the disadvantage of Canning election; I amn not sure whether the Legislative Council as a whole by say- that is what they are suggesting. ing that in some way or other it has ob- I believe I have made the point that structed the will of the people. How under the preferential voting system completely and absolutely untrue that is. minority groups are represented. I think in fact, here is an Instance of the Opposi- that is one of the essential features of thbe tion in the Legislative Council endeavour- system. When I said that I do not neces- Ing to represent the point of view of a sarily believe the preferential system as minority. Of course, this is the great It applies In Australia is the absolute virtue of the preferential system. Minori- ideal- ties must be represented. To have any system other than the preferential system The Hon. D. K. Dans: How are the would deny the opportunity of represen- minority parties represented? tation to minority groups, irrespective of The Hon. N. McNEIJLL: I will Ignore the political parties they may constitute. that interjection because I will not be So, for those reasons I am completely op- diverted from what I am trying to say. posed to the Bill. One point of view, obtained as a result of an examination of the 1981 and 1963 Fed- THE HON. S. T. J. THOMPSON (Lower eral elections, and other elections-and I Central) [5.39 p.m.]: I rise to oppose the know many other members have been Bill, which endeavours to do two things. placed in an Identical situation, both In Firstly it endeavours to introduce circular State and Federal Politics-is that second ballot papers. We have not heard much of preference votes should have the same that from recent speakers. I think neither value as primary votes. I just wonder of the speakers tonight made mention of about that; certainly under first-past-the- wxhat is, to my way of thinking, an Im- post voting the voters' second, third, and portant part of the Bill. Since an Inter- fourth choice would have absolutely no jection was made by the Leader of the standing at all. So I would like to think House last night two of my colleagues have [Wednesday, 18 April, 1973] been endeavouring to draw up circular the Country Party candidate was running ballot papers. Having seen the result, I ama second. However, the Country Party can- convinced we would have more informal didate was elected on the preferences of votes with circular papers than we have the Labor Party candidate. So that ex- under the present system. plodes Mr. Claughton's theory. The Ron, D. J. Wordsworth: If you put I think Mr. McNeill really hit upon the a hole in the middle of the paper you can crux of the introduction of this measure, spin it. It was introduced in an endeavour to dis- The Hon. Clive Griffiths: I think the credit this House. on the assumption that Labor Party is trying to eliminate most it will be defeated here. I hope the House other parties so that only two are left. In its wisdom will vote against the Bill. The Hon. S. T. J. THOMPSON: With re- THE HON. J. DOLAN (South-East gard to the subject of preferential voting, Metropoitan-Leader of the H1ouse) [5.45 I feel we in Western Australia have en- P.m.]: Firstly, I must correct a number of joyed a good system of voting for many misstatements which have been made, and, years. The system has made it possible for at the same time, congratulate Miss Elliott Governments to change periodically as a on her speech which was punctuated by a result of a alight swing. I think the en- number of second speeches by members of deavour behind this move is aimed at the Opposition. making it easy for a Government elected Referring to some of the statemnents of by a minority to retain power for a long the Leader of the Opposition, It seems time. peculiar that when the Government intro- I am really amazed that Miss Elliott, duces legislation which is not acceptable to when referring to the Canning figures, members of the Opposition they immedi- said that 20,000 Preferences of the Labor ately use an amazing set of adjectives candidate could have gone to the Liberal when describing it. The Leader of the candidate, If my memory serves me right. Opposition used such wards as "blatant", Mr. Pemaberton did not receive as great a "'arrogant", "shamefaced", and "cheeky"; number of Labor Preferences as I had and Mr. MacKinnon used the word "Ima- the privilege to receive. I was intimately moral". connected with the Canning electorate for The H-on, A. F. Griffith: I should have a long while. used the word "barefaced". The Mon. G. C. MacKinnon* Were you a The Mon. J. DOLAN: I take strong scrutineer? exception to the use of adjectives of thee4 Thc lion. S. T. J. THOMPSON: Yes. nature with reference to legislation he The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: introduce. It should be expected that a Then you political party will try to implement some would know. It Is fact against guesswork. of the policies contained In Its platform. If The Hon. S. T. J. THOMPSON: I ques- the relevant legislation is thrown out and tion Miss Elliott's assumption that 20.000 the Government feels that the policies are Labor Preferences would automatically go worth while it will make another attempt to the other candidate. to Introduce similar legislation into Parlia- The Hon. L. P. Elliott: Most people fol- ment. That Is what has been done on this low how-ta-vote cards. occasion. Items 7 and 8 in the State Plat- formn-electoral and constitutional-of the The Hon. S. T, J. THOMPSON:, Uinder A.L.P. read- preferential voting the field is reduced to 7. The State Electoral Act to be two candidates, and after that preferences amended to provide for the election of do not count. Mr. Hallett's preferences candidates to the State Parliament orn were not counted in that election; and it the basis of the greatest number of is quite possible they all would have gone votes to any Candidate, to the Labor candidate, if we follow Miss Elliott's assumption. i.e. first-past-the- post. B. Circular ballot papers to be used When Mr. Claughton was addressing in all State Elections. himself to the Bill last night I endeavoured to pin him down regarding a certain ques- Surely if a political party has policies in tion, but he was reluctant to answer it its platform It stands to reason it will and said it was not relevant to the debate. attempt to introduce them Nvben it is in I raised the question of the system of vot- Government. The fact that the policies ing used by his party for internal elections. are not acceptable to Parliament does not Mr. Claughton went on to comment about matter. It does not mean anything to me the situation at Blackwood, and he re- if the legislation is thrown out. The time ferred to the controversy between the Lib- will come when it will be reintroduced. The eral Party and the Country Party. At the Opposition has a perfect right to reject 1971 State elections three candidates stood legislation. for the seat of Blackwood. If my memory However, when a subject is being debated. serves me correctly, the Liberal Party can- members from all parties should debate the didate headed the field for a while, and issues involved and niot resort to the use of 1026 fcOUNcuJ,] terms such as those employed by members The Hon. 3. DOLAN: During that long of the Opposition when discussing the Bill period of 25 years referred to previously, before us. the Legislative Council in South Australia I could take all those adjectives, add had 20 members comprising 16 non-Labor many more of a similar nature to them, members and four Labor members. only and then apply them all to the system one reason existed for the four Labor which operated in South Australia where members being elected; that was, the good for 25 years a non-Labor Government grace of the L.C.L. The Constitution of under Mr.-and, later, Sir-Thomas Play- South Australia provides for three Minis- ford, held office. The position in South Aus- ters in the Upper House and if four mem- tralia was that the number of country bers are elected, there is one spare in case electorates was twice the number in the one of the three Ministers appointed is not metropolitan area, but the number of popular with the L.C.L. electors in each country electorate was only approximately half the number of The Hion. V, J. Ferry: That is prefer- those in a city electorate. The consequence ential treatment. was that a vote in a country electorate The H-on. A. F. Griffith: What you will had four times the value of a vote in the be able to do when you leave Parliament metropolitan area. That was the amazing is to tell more fairy tales. position, and when proposals were sub- The Hon. J, DOLAN: This is the abso- mitted for amendments to the electoral lute truth, and legislation some time ago one of the the Leader of the Opposi- country representatives of the L.C.L. tion knows it. alliance asked: Why should a metro- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I do not know politan drink waiter have a vote of the same it: I amr learning. value as the vote of a soldier settler The Hon. J. DOLAN: The absolute truth battling in the back blocks to create a new Is this: The people of South Aus- farm? tralia would have been informed that the That was the attitude. A metropolitan elected Government could not govern be- member gave an answer which I think cause it did not have enough members in was most appropriate and well worth re- the Upper House. peating. It was: Why should a country drink waiter have a vote four times the value of All members know what occurred in the brain surgeon? Queensland Parliament last year when the the vote of a metropolitan Country Party decided to amend the The Hon. F. R. White: What has this to Electoral Act to provide for what could do with the Bill before us? have been the greatest gerrymander in the The H-on. J. DOLAN: I am answering history of Australian politics. The situa- some of the points raised. tion was that eight Liberals--and heaven The H-on. A. F. Griffith: You raised the knows they can take a lot-crossed the question of South Australia. We didn't. floor of the House and defeated the Bill. The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: We did not Members know also what occurred last talk about South Australia. week in the New South Wales Parliament The PRESIDENT: Order!1 when, because of Its numbers, the Govern- The Hon. J. DOLAN: The Leader of tne ment applied the gag on an-urgency motion Opposition might recall that one name In order to deal with reforms to the Elec- mentioned was that of the Premier of toral Act. South Australia-Steele Hall. The Ron. A. F. Griffith: The gag 'was The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: You Intro- applied in the Legislative Assembly here duced that name by way of interjection. the week before last. The Hon. J. DOL-AN: Of course I did The Hon. J. DOLAN: I know that. The and I will say more about that In a gag was applied in New South Wales in order that legislation might be passed to moment. provide for a redistribution of seats in The Hon. A. F. Grifrath: You introduced time for the election next year. Of course the subject. the Bill then went before the Legislative The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: You bring Council and what a set-up that Is. No it up and then answer yourself. ordinary citizen has a vote for members The Hon. J. DOLAN: The members of of the Legislative Council of New South the opposition are delighted to give it, but Wales. when they have to take it and learn the The Hon. F. Rt. White: What has that truth, it hurts. They do not feel so com- to do with our Bill? fortable then. The Hon. J. DOLAN:* I am drawing The Hon. A. F. Griffith: We can take all attention to the fact that we are trying you can dish out and still be okay. to amend the Electoral Act and that The Hon. J. DOLAN: Why not sit and matters associated with the Electoral Acts take it then? of all States must be referred to In order The Hon. 0. C. Macsinnon: It Is so that the situation might be dealt with in barefaced. its proper perspective. [Wednesday, 18 Apri1, 10731 121027

The Hon. N. McNeill: The franchise in The Hion. J. DOLAR: -because Mr. their House does not in any way approxi- Grayden had an absolute majority. So we mate ours. will keep on wondering where his prefer- The Ron. R. F. Claughton: The House ences would have gone. did not stop the Bill going through. The Hon, A. F. Griffith;. You might, but The Hon. J. POLAN: Miss Elliott re- I won't. ferred to the fact that a couple of members The Hon. 3. DOLAN: I do not care If would not be here but for the grace of the he contests any seat in future. distribution of D.L.P. preferences at the The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I was talking last election. about the last Federal election, The Hon. L. A. Logan: They still would The Hon. J. DOLAN: I suppose I might have won even if the D.L.P. had had no be in the same plight when I refer to what candidates entered in the field. Mr. Logan said about the U.F.G.A. being The Hon. J. DOLAN: That is a matter an appendage of the Labor Party. I exam- of opinion; but those members were elected ined the figures, and I will refer to them on the preferences of the D.,L.P. in a moment. The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: They told The Hon. L. A. Logan: I did not mention us we could not win Bunbury without the anything about figures. EI.L.P., but we did. The Hon. J. DOLAN: The Leader of the The Hon. F. D. Willmott: That Is right, Opposition said- The Hon. J. DOLAN: That was a ease of For the many years I have been in first-past-the-past voting in B3unbury, and Parliament I have never known a Gov- that is what the Bill before us provides. ernment to bring down a Bill that would be of benefit to the Opposition 'The Leader of the Opposition made some parties. Has any member ever known comments about the situation and I be- this to happen? lieve I am quite entitled to reply to them. I replied to the question and stated it 'was The Hon. G. C. MvacKinnon: We are done in South Australia by Mr. Steele getting a bit tired waiting for you to do so. Hal- The I-on. J. DOLAN: The Leader of the The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: You referred Opposition said- to Mr. Steele Hall. The United Australia Party had an The Han. J. DOLAN: -when he brought exchange of preferences with the Labor down his own Government. Party. I do net think the Liberals re- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: That is when ceived any of their second preferences. you introduced the subject matter of South Australia and Mr. Steele Hall. Of course that statement is Just nonsense. The Australia Party had only one candi- The Hon. J. POLAN: The Leader of the date in the last election, and he was a Opposition challenged the H-ouse and asked Mr. A. W. Williams who stood for the 'whether any member had known a certain South Perth seat In the Legislative event to happen. I just read his words Assembly. which are in Mansard. He asked whether any member had known this to happen The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You are talking and I answered him. That was the first about the State election are you? time I have known him to be stuck for The Hon. J. DOLAN: Yes. words, and Mr, Stubbs said that it should The H-on. V. J. Ferry: What about the occur more often. Never have any truer Commonwealth? words been spoken than those and the time "was long overdue for the Leader of the The Hoan. A. F. Griffith: Did you think Opposition to be told. I was talking about the State election?) The Hon. V. 3. Perry: It is like a panto- The Hon, J. DOLAN. I certainly did. mime this afternoon. The Ron. A. F. Griffith: You should The Hon. A. P. Griffith,. I am sometimes think again. sorry you have such a strong voice. The Hon. G. C. Mac~inflon: You have The Hon. J. DOLAN: I think it was been making a speech on South Australia. only yesterday that Mr. Heitman com- The Hon. A. F. Griffith:. You should not plained of deafness and said he could not take things for granted, because you are hear someone on this side of the House. so often wrong. I think it was Miss Ellott. I am mnerely The Hon. J. DOLAN. Mr. Williams polled making sure he is able to hear what I say. 175 votes. He could not even beat Mr. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I told a South Informal who polled 320 votes; and so Mr. Australian what you said the other day Williams' preferences were not distribut- and he really laughed. ed- The Hon, J. POLAR: I am drawing the The Ilon. V. J. Ferry: He should be attention of the House to some of tho. ashamed of himself. facts concerning first-past-the-past voting. 1028 1028[COUNCIL.]

When Mr. Claug-hton referred to the same mistake twice. At the next election United Kingdom having this system Mr. we will find that Mr. Heath will be sitting MacKinnon stated that we could not really on the Opposition benches. Use that system as a good example. I1 know what this Parliament and this The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: You are Chamber owe to the British Parliament. I admitting it Is a rough-and-ready system. do not suppose there is any country in the The Hon. J. DOLAN: Reference was world which has a more democratic system made to the fact that it was a rough-and- of Government. The members of that ready system, because in England there is Parliament have been prepared to fight and voluntary voting. What is the position in die In the Civil War to preserve their New Zealand where the system of voting parliamentary heritage. The bar across is first-past-the-post and where voting Is the Chamber is a reminder that the mem- compulsory? bers of the House of Commons objected to even the King of England entering the The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Surely Chamber. So it is in very poor taste, to their system is not immoral. say the least, to refer to the British system The Hon. J. DOLAN: The honourable as being rough and ready as Mr. MacKin- member referred to the fact and said that non did on two occasions. That is a sys- our bringing this Bill before the House tem to which we owe a great deal and was immoral, from which we have obtained many laws and parliamentary rights and privileges. The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: So it was. The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: That is a The Hon. J. DOLAN: Such words should complete twisting of the words, of course. not be used. I certainly would not use them I referred to the electoral system and not when speaking about any action that might to the Parliament. You have twisted my be taken by the Opposition. Members are words deliberately. entitled to get up and say what they like about the Bill. They have every right to The Hon. J. DOLAN.' Mr. MacKinnon oppose the measure If they wish to; that has made his speech. And I noted his is their privilege, and I would fight as words as he uttered them. hard for the right of members opposite The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon., You have to retain that privilege as I would fight twisted the speech to suit your own pur- to retain it on my own behalf or on behalf poses. of my party. Mr. MacKinnon also said that in Great The Hon, J. DOLAN., Mr. MacKinnon Britain a majority of 30 is not considered also referred to the fact that a system of to be of any significance, whereas we compulsory voting does not exist in the would regard such a majority as a fantas- United Kingdom. tic majority. I1do not know to whom the The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: That is honourable member refers when he says right. that, "we would regard It as a fantastic The Hon. J. DOLAN: As if that mat- majority". I certainly would not call a ters. of course it is right. I do not deny majority of 30 a fantastic majority; not it, but I can tell Mr. MacKinnon somne- when one knows the composition of the thing else: The people of England are so House in question. well educated politically and realise what The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon., I said that they stand to lose If anything happens to we in Australia would consider It a f an- their governmental system that they roll up tastic majority. in force to vote on election days. This was not the case in Australia when voting was The Hon. J. DOLAN: I do not think we not compulsory because then it was not un- would. According to Wkitaker's Almanac, usual for only 40 Per cent. of those eligible the latest figures show that there are 635 to cast a vote; and sometimes the percent- members in the House of Commons, which age was even lower than that, more par- is 12 times more than what we have in ticularly at a by-election when it was diffi- our Assembly. It is five times the 125 cult to get the electors to vote. That does members who constitute the Australian not happen in Great Britain. House of Representatives. The present majority of the A.JP. in the House of Rep- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: That Is why you resentatives Is nine seats. On a proportional want preferential voting. basis the operative figure-when referring The Hon. J, DOLAN: I will tell the to a majority-in Great Britain would be Leader of the opposition why we want 45. If the House of Commons had any more first-past-the-post voting. members the additional members would The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon. That is have to stand out In the gallery, because why Mr. Wilson lost the Prime Minister- the House of Commons can only seat 200 to ship-because the people did not go out 300. Such members would only be able to and vote for him. obtain seats when the members on the floor The Ron. J. DOLAN: That Is quite of the House happened to leave. right. We can say this about the Labour The Mon. A. F. Griffith: You have a Jolly voters in England-they will not make the good look when you go over next year. [Wednesday, 18 April, 1973] 102902 The Hon. J. DOLAN: I hope to. Could In 99 cases out of 100 the D.L.P. I divert a little at this stage? What I am votes for the Liberals, but on this occasion about to say relates to the House of Corn- they realised that they were voting for an mons. I happened to be in front of Par- extraordinarily good candidate and they liament House here when I saw a man felt they just had to vote for me! walking around looking a trifle lost. I took him to be a member of Parliament The Eon. Olive Griffiths: Do you agree from somewhere, because he seemed very with the D.L.P. policy? Interested and I think he also wore a Comn- The Hon. J. DOLAN: It is suggested by monwealth Parliamentary Association tie. Mr. MacKinnon that there Is only one purpose in the legislation before the House The Hon. A. F, Griffith: Did he look like a Labor man? -to destroy the Country Party. The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: I said two The Hon. J. DOLAN: He did; he had a purposes; the other was to discredit this good, honest, down-to-earth lace. House. I just want you to be accurate. The Hon. H. Thompson: You asked for The Hon. J. DOLAN: The honourable that, member suggested that the main purpose was to destroy the Country Party; he even The Hon. A. IF. Griffith. You are getting said as much, quicker every day. The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: And the The H-on. J. DOLAN: I thought I would D.L.P. do my duty as an ordinary member so I The H-on. J. DOLAN: Whatever else was wialked over to the gentleman in question said by the honourable member I will reply and said, "You appear to be a stranger to later. Had the system of first-part-the- here. Can I be of any assistance to you?" Post voting been In operation during the He replied. "I come from England and I last election, the member for Blackrwood am a member of the House of Commons." (Mr. Held),* who belonged to the Country He indicated that he was delighted to Party, would have lost the seat: but he meet me and said that his name was Willy would have lost it to a member of the Hannian and that he represented a seat Opposition-Mr. Willmott; that name near Motherwell. sounds familiar. The other seat that could have been lost The Hon. A. F. Griffith: And you said was that of the member for Stirling (Mr. your name was Jerry Dolan? Stephens) who was not first past the post. The Hon. J. DOLAN: That is right.' I The Hon. A. F. Griffith: They are in- said, "My name is Jerry Dolan; I am a teresting figures. Labor man to the core." He then replied, The Ron. J. DOLAN: They are. The "Put It there." I took him around the member for Stirling was not first past the House and I later took him on to King's Post but after the distribution of prefer- Park and bought him lunch. ences he became the new Country Party member for Stirling. When the A-L.P. pre- The Hon. A. F, Griffith; He is luckylI ferences were distributed in the Blackwood You have never bought me lunch. electorate Mr. Sumner had a number of The Hon. J. DOLAN: This happened preferences; there were 1,655 in all. Of five years ago and yet the first Christmas these, the member for Blackwood (Mr. card I receive depicts the Chamber of the Reid) received 1,371, whereas Mr. Willniott House of Commons and it is from Willy received only 294. Hannan. I think we have a duty as mem- Surely those figures would indicate that bers of Parliament to welcome our friends at election time the Labor voters prefer the from overseas. I am convinced that Willy Country Party to the Liberal Party. Every Hannan belongs to a system which is other Country Party candidate for the democratic: the most worth while the lower House--Mr. Nalder, Mr. Lewis, Mr. has known. MePharlin, Mr. W. A. Manning and Mr. world W. 0. Young-would have won had the The Hon. Clive Griffiths: It is a bi- first-past-the-post system been operating. cameral system. Accordingly the worst that could have happened to the Country Party Would have The Hon. J. DOLAN: There we have been that It could have lost Stirling, in the an interjection from someone who gets in event of there being a first-past-the -post on D.L.P. preferences. My first election was system operating. first-past-the-post-there were only two candidates and I beat the other person. In It may be interesting to refer to the the sedond election which was full prefer- fact that the Leader of the Country Party ential, on primaries I led by 1,400 and in the Federal sphere (M~tr. Anthony) made when preferences were distributed I In- a statement on friday the 13th April, creased my majority to 1.900 so it does not while he was at a Country Party meeting matter In what light it was considered I at Wodonga. had to win. SUttng suspended from 6.10 to 7.30 V.mn. 1030 (COUNCIL.]

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Before the tea sus- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: "Skulduggery" pension I was referring to the remarks Is a noun, Is it? of the Federal Leader of the Country Party (Mr. Anthony) at the Victorian State Con- The Hon. H. Thompson: You cannot ference of that party. He said- win! It might be necessary for the anti- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I cannot win? Labor Parties to move closer together Not much! to defeat the Labor Government. The Hon. J. DOLAN: Yes, It is; at least He said that because he obviously felt there I know my parts of speech. had to be a much closer relationship be- The Hon. R. J7. L. Williams: One can tween the Liberal Party and the Country seldom have a sentence without an ad- Party. jective. The H-on. A. F. Griffith: Did he not say The Hon. J, DOIA": Mr.. Logan referred that because he feared a first-past-the- to the U.F.G.A., which is the United Farm- post Bill would be introduced into the ers and Graziers Association. He said that Federal Parliament? U.F.G.A. was as good as being an A.L.P. The Hon. J7. DOLAN: No. appendage. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Did he not? The Hon. L. A. Logan: The AL.P, had an agreement with U.F.G.A. The Hon. J7. DOLAN: Not in that context. He could have implied that, but what The Hon. J. DOLAN: Let us consider he wants to accomplish is quite different. what happened at the last election so far If there is a combination of the anti-Labor as U.P.G.A. was concerned. It contested parties against the A.L.P.. he feels that the only two seats. anti-Labor parties could beat the A.L.P. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Did you see any As it is, the Federal Opposition feels that of its how-to-vote cards? Labor will be in Government for a longer period than the Previous Government-a The Hon. J. DOLAN: I am not concerned consummation devoutly to be wished for. with them. The Hon. N. McNeill: Do you know that The Hon. A. F. Griffith: They were. Mr. Fairbairn made a similar comment on though. the 12th March? The Hon. J. DOLAN: The A.LP. Policy The Hon. J7. DOLAN: He could have, but does not permit of any arrangements with this happened only last week and is more another political Party. This is in our recent. Constitution and, if members opposite want a copy, they can purchase one for The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Steele Hall's Bill 50c. They are available to the public. I was not recent. am waiting for the day when I can buy The Hon. J7. DOLAN: If the position the Liberal platform for that amount of which Mr. Anthony desires had been in money. operation at the last State election, the The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I will give you present Government would not be in office. one for nothing if you promise to read it. This could have happened if the anti-Labor The Hon. R. Thompson: Give me one. parties had united their candidates and too. contested the seats on a first-past-the-post The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You would be basis. more educated after reading It. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: It would have The PRESIDENT: Order! been a wonderful thing for Australia if the present Government were not in office. The Hon. .3. DOLAN: The U.F.G.A. contested only two seats In the Assembly The Hon. J. DOLAN: That Is only an elections; namely, Greenough and Narro- opinion and I do not share it. On this gin. basis the Liberal and Country Party seats The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Who got their would have numbered 28 and the A.L.F., 23. The Liberal and Country Parties would second preferences? have been able to give a couple of seats to The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: They con- the D.L.P. without missing them; it would tested Roe. still have been able to govern. The Hon. J. DOLAN: That is not re- The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: This is a corded in this Electoral Department book which gives the details of the election. humorous speech. What seat did the honourable member say? The Ron. J. DOLAN: I refer to some of The Hon. D). J7. Wordsworth: Roe. the remarks made by Mr. Logan. I express my appreciation that be did not use any The Hon. J. DOLAN: There is only one adjectives to describe the legislation. There way to find out. I shall look in the book was no doubt as to which side he was on because it may have escaped my attention. but he was quite straightforward and The Hon. A. P. Griffith: Who received frank. He simiply opposed the legislation. the U.F.G.A. second preferences? [Wednesday, 18 April, 19731 103103

The Hon. J. DOLAN: This is the offcial In Katanning, Mr. Carmichael-Smith re- document. The candidates are listed as ceived 325 primaries. Eventually 352 votes follows- were distributed. Mr. Nelson, unendorsed Malley-D.L.P. Country Party, received 98; Mr. Carr, W. G. Young--C.P. D.L.P., received 59; Mr. Nalder, Country McColl-Ind. Party, received 38, making a total of 195. Oleeson-Ind. Mr. Francisco of the A.L.P. received 157. This is the official publication of the This shows the same trend. Electoral Department and it makes no The Hon. A. F. Griffith: It is still more reference at all to a candidate from the than any other candidate. UY.G.A. The Hon. J. DOLAN: In Moore, Mr. The Hon. V. J. Ferry: What about Yates received 506 primaries. When these Vasse? were distributed Mr. Drew of the D.L.P. The Hon. J. DOLAN: I believe the Elec- received 94; Mr. Down, Independent toral Department knows more than Mr. Liberal received 141; and Mr. Lewis of the Wordsworth. Country Party received 100, making a total of 335. Mr. Oxenburgh of the A.L.P. re- The Hon. D). J. Wordsworth: I will show ceived 171, which is approximately half. you the official pamphlet. There was a big surprise in Murchison- The Hon. J. DOLLAN: The document Eyre. Mr. Haxnersley received 109 pri- from the Electoral Department is official, maries and, after receiving a few prefer- in my book. I obtained my information ences from the D.L.P., 127 votes were dis- from this source. tributed. Mr. Bailey of the A.L.P. received The Ron. A. F. Griffith:, What does 72 and Mr. Coyne of the Liberal Party received 55. In this seat, the L.U.F.u.A LU.F.0.A. mean? supported the Labor Party. The Hon. J. DOLAN: It means an Inde- The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: Did not the pendent U.F.G.A. candidate. I will come U.F.Q.A. have a deal with the Labor Party? to this point shortly. I am differentiating I read it in the papers. between the two as has been done In the official book. The U.F.G.A. is designated The Hon. J. DOLAN: I suggest Mr. differently from the LU.F.G.A. MacKinnon should read the A.L.P. Consti- tution, We do not make deals with any- As I have said1 the TJ.F.G.A. contested body. We have strong feet and we stand only two seats. In Greenough, Mr. on them. Hamersley was the candidate and there The Hon. was no distribution of preferences. We J. Heitman: That is a surprise will never know where his preferences to most of us. would have gone, In Narrogin, Mr. The Hon. J. DOLLAR: The State totals MeNaughton was the candidate. He Polled of the I.EJ.F.G.A. are quite interesting. 540 primary votes. He received 55 prefer- Anti-Labor parties received 1,293 votes, or ences from the D.L.P. and, consequently, 81 per cent., and the Labor Party received had 595 votes for distribution. Mr. 839 votes, or 39 per cent. Pennington, the Liberal candidate, re- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Tell me one ceived 190; Mr. Manning, the Country thing. Who received the second prefer- Party candidate, 102; and Mr. Turner, the ences of the U.F.0.A. and the L.U.F.G.A. A.L.P. candidate, 190. The anti-Labor parties received 352 votes compared with The Hon. J. DOLLAR: I have Just read 190 which went to Mr. Turner, the Labor them out. candidate. If Mr. MeNaughton had been The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You did not attached to the A.L.P., this would have read the preferences but the votes. been the first time that the A.L.P. defected in this way. I say that it did not. On the The Hon. J. DOLAN: I read the distribu- basis of the distribution of preferences It tion of preferences. is logical to conclude that the U.FG.A. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Who received favoured the non-Labor parties. the second preferences on the how-to-vote card? The I.U.F.G.A. contested five seats. In Mt. Marshall, the seat held by Mr. The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Labor did. MePharlin, there was no distribution of The Hon. J. DOLLAR: It seems that I preferences. We will never know where have temporarily mislaid the circular they would have gone. In Blackwood, Mr. ballot paper which I dearly wanted to Crackel received 558 primary votes. After mention. receiving a few preferences, he distributed The Hon. A. F. Griffith: The question 605 votes. Mr. Reid of the Country Party still remains unanswered in regard to the received 290 and Mr. Willmott, Liberal, second preferences. received 66, making a total of 356. Mr. Sumner of the A.L.P. received 249. From The Hon. J. DOLAN: I will answer any those figures the I.U.F.G.A. was not sup- question afterwards. porting the A.L.P. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Now Is the time. ICOUNCIL.]

The Hon. J. DOLAN: I read out the The Hon. 0. C. Macxinnon: if that primary votes which the UJF.O.A. and the theory were correct, Mr. Asrons, the Com- L.U.Fs3.A. received. I also read out the munist, should have been In the Senate people to whom they gave their prefer- years ago. ences. The Hon. J. DOLAN': There Is a Labor The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You have missed man of that name also, but the LAbor the point. Did not the Labor Party get the Party has nothing to do with the Com- second preferences on the U.F.G.A. and munist Party. If members opposite care the I..'.A. how-to-vote cards? for a little light reading, they may read The Hon. J. DOLAN: I do not have a our platform and see what we think of clue. communism. it is there In black and white. I have no time for communism and The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I have a clue. neither has the Labor Party. It stands on The Hon. D. K. Dans: Will you enter a Its own two feet. deal with the Labor Party when we give the Liberal Nowadays the candidates' names are Party our second preferences? listed across the paper for Senate elections. The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: We stand So members will realise how Important the alone. position on the ballot paper is. When a The Hon. J. DOLAN: In view of the draw Is conducted for Positions on the amount of time which members of the ballot paper, a candidate and his sup- Opposition have had to study a circular porters will cheer if he draws number one ballot paper and to understand it, It is position. The Liberal Party likes its quite amazing that they know nothing at candidates' names to follow those of the all about this subject. One member put D.L.P. candidates. Of course, we like to forward a hypothetical case and used. the draw the number one Position also. name Gainstord-Braccley. That name rang The Hon. Clive Griffiths.: That is evi- a bell. He was the Liberal candidate for denced by the fact that the surnames of many of Your candidates commenced with a seat on the other side of the river. a "B.. The Hon. R. Thompson: He opposed me and took a hiding. The Hon. J. DOLAN: Mr. Clive Griffiths. The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: It was cut said that with a circular ballot paper in out originally to make sure you had some an election contested by two candidates, the Legislative Council. one name would be on one side and one on representation in the other. He said that the voter could The Hon. J. DOLAN: With the system of swing the card around and pick one. He preferential voting, there Is a large num- does not know what he Is talking about. ber of informal voters. The Hon. R. Thompson: You have won The ballot papers have been altered over every argument tonight!I the years. and of course this has happened with non-Labor Governments as well as The Hon. J3. DOLAN: I will give examples with Labor Governments. Do not tell me to show what I mean. I will commence with a group of people whom we would that the alterations have not been made not expect to record In formal votes. I am to gain advantage one way or the other! referring to the Western Australian branch By that I do not mean a party advantage. of the Australian Medical Association. I mean an improvement In the system. When the A.M.A. conducts an election, one I will just mention a few examples to get would expect that its members would look members' minds working. Ballot papers at the ballot paper and cast their votes for Federal Senate elections formerly listed correctly in full knowledge of the pro- the candidates' names straight down the cedure. One would not think that the paper. Now, of course, the names go number of Informal votes in such an elec- across the paper. It is noticeable that tion would be very high. generally the Liberal Party follows moves The Hon. R. J. L. Williams: Perhaps they made by the Labor Party In matters such do not like any of the candidates. as this. At one time the candidates for the Senate were listed in alphabetical The H-on. J. DOLAN: That may be so. order, and the Labor Party sought an However, these men have undoubted advantage and Picked candidates with ability and one would expect that they surnames commencing with "A". That Is would fill in the paper correctly. Because why we have members in the Senate now of the number of In formal votes in their elections, the A.M.A. decided to try the with names such as Ashley and Armstrong. circular ballot paper, and it was discovered The Hon. 0. C. Maci~innon: And that by using this method the number of Withers. informal votes dropped. The system has The Hon. J. DOLAN: Candidates whose been continued, and as the members be- surnames started with "A" had the advan- come more used to it so the percentage of tage of their name appearing first on the informal votes has gone down and down. ballot paper. This is a very important This system of voting is used by other point in big elections of this kind where organisations--it is not confined to the everybody in the Commonwealth votes. A.M.A. I have here an example of two [Wednesday, 18 April, l973] 103303 circular ballot papers-one showing two The Hon. J. DOLAN: Of course this can candidates for an election and the other be done. If the honourable member gives showing six candidates. I will hold these me a compass, I will divide a circle into up far members to see. Members will see any number of segments without any that they are quite simple, but we must re- trouble at all. member that the circles will be cut out. The Hon. A. F. Griffth: You had the ad- One honourable member, for whose vantage of teaching children in school. ability I have a great deal of esteem and The Hon. J. DOLAN: So did Mr. WII- admiration, has asked two questions. He hiams, Perhaps he was not as good as I asked where Is the top of a circular ballot was. This circle has been divided into seven paper. I thought he knew-I thought we segments and the names of the candidates all knew that there is no top to a circle, are Printed in each one. They are Thomp- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Is there a son, Poole, Agnello, Speranza, Rogers, My- bottom'? nott, and Parker, The H-on. 0. C. MacKinnon., Are the The Hon. J. DOLAN: There is no bottom names printed from the centre to the cir- and there Is no side. cumference or around the circumference? The Ron. A. F. Griffith: You are telling us a lot of bottom tonight. The Han, J. DOLAN: I will hold it up so that members can see it. The Hon, 0, C. MacKinnon: And inside The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: Mansard and outside. cannot record that. The H-on. J. DOLAN: This example shows The Hon, J. DOLAN: I will give it to a ballot paper with two candidates' names members to inspect. listed. One of these candidates has a well- known name. I am sure members know The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Are the this name, whether they like it or not- names Printed from the centre to the cir- Raymond Walter Clohessy. cumference or around the circumference? The Hon. W. R. Withers: What is his The Hon. J. DOLAN: They are printed position on the paper? around the circle. As the voter turns the Paper round he can read each 'name. It The Hon. J. DOLAN: We cannot say his is right In front of him-no trouble at all. position is anywhere, we do not know how a ballot paper will be presented to an The Hon. W. R. Withers: How many elector. Mr. Withers came up with a letters are In the longest name and how silly-tn fact, a clownish-suggestion last many in the shortest name?7 night. Although I told him that I would The Hon. J. DOLAN: I am being very explain this matter and give examples of patient tonight. Do you wish to know the it, he persisted in attempting to put across letters In the surnames? his point which was not a point at all. The Hon. W. R. Withers: According to The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Do not tell us the Bill it Is only the surname you want to you are not trying to put across your use. point. The Hon. 11. F. Claughton: What is on The Hon. J, DOLAN, I am telling the the example you have there? Opposition members something none of The Hon. J. DOLAN: Eight letters in the them took the trouble to find out. If we longest name, and that is a well-known take the case of the two-name ballot paper, name here in the Legislative Council- a voter may be handed the ballot paper Thompson with a "p". either way. The voter has the ballot paper The Hon. F. R. White: How would we in front of him, and he simply turns it know which around to see either candidate's name. He one If no initials were given? does not have to stand on his bead and The Hon. J. DOLAN: The Christian perform contortions as some members names are given here-Edward, John, An- suggested. tonio, Carmelo, George, Thomas, and Nor- man. We are broadminded In these things The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Would you mind -race, creed, and colour do not matter, telling me whether the bottom name is The printed upside down to the top name? Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Shades of the Mining Act Amendment Bill. DOLAN: That is correct. The Hon, J. The Hon. J. DOLAN:, The directions are When the voter turns the card around he set out plainly on the back of the paper can read the second name. The other name for the on this card Is Leslie Alan Semple Park. benefit of the voter. The surnames are in larger letters for easy The Hon. W. R. Withers: Are they writ- indentification. ten around the circumference? The next example is a ballot paper for The PRESIDENT: Order] an election contested by six people. This The Hon. J. DOLAN: The honourable shows a circle divided into six segments. member did his clowning last night, Let The Hon. R, J. L. Williams: Can you somneone who wishes to speak Intelligently divide a circle into five equal segments? speak now. 1034 1034(COUNCIL.)

This is a move to attempt to introduce a respective headings in the better system. It is aLsimple change, simi- register or book that are ap- lar to the alterations made in the Senate plicable, make or cause to be ballot paper where the names are now made an accurate entry of all listed horizontally and not vertically, The the particulars and on the Liberal Party brought about the idea of same day shall sign or initial drawing for positions because it realised such entries, that certain places on the ballot paper gave an advantage. It is difficult for me to say No. 2. whether or not we will have fewer informal Clause 5, page 4, after line 6-Add votes with a circular ballot paper. the following- I have tried to express my views on this 30. (1) Where a sale by auction matter. If we wish to obtain a true ex- of cattle to which section 3A of pression of the opinion of the people, we this Act applies Is conducted by a should follow the example of countries person whose license is held by such as New Zealand. I have a book here him for the benefit of a firm or which sets out all the other countries which company under section twenty of think that first-past-the-post voting is a the Auctioneers Act, 1921, any good proposition. I commend the Bill to member of the police force of the the House. State may. at any reasonable time, Question Put and a division taken with Inspect all invoices, account sales the following result-- and other records kept by the firm Ayer-1O or company as the case may be Hon. It. F. Olaughton Hon. Rt. T. Leeson concerning that sale. Hon. S. J. Deliar Hon. At. H. 0. Stubbs (2) Any member of a firm or Hon. 3. Dolan lion. It. Tbompson Hon. L. D. Elitt lion. W. F. Wiltesee any company referred to in- sub- Hon. J, L, Hunt Hon. D. K Dans section (1) of this section- (Teller) C)shall hold all Invoices Noes--l8 and other Hon. C. Rt. Abbey Eon. Tr. 0. Perry account sales Ron. 0. W. Berry Hon. S. T. J. Thompson records available for the Ron. V. J1. Ferry Han. J. M. Thomson purpose of any inspection Hon. A. P. Griffith Hon. P. R. White authorised by subsection Ban. Clive Griffiths IRon. a. J. L. Williams Hon. L. A. Logan Eon. F. D. Wilimott C1) of this section; and Ban. G. 0. Mac~lnnon Han. W. R. Withers Cb) shall, on the request of Hon. N. Mceeill lian.D3J. Wordsworth Hon. 1. 0. Mecicaif Han. J. Beitman any member of the police (Teller) force of the State produce Question thus negatived. the invoices, account sales and other records Bill defeated. to him for that purpose, EVAPORITES (LAKE MacLEOD) and any member of a firm or any AGREEMENT ACT AMENDMENT BILL company failing to comply with the provisions of paragraph (a) Receipt and First Reading or (b) of this subsection shall be Bill received from the Assembly; and, on guilty of an offence and shall be motion by The Hon. J. Dolan (leader of liable to a penalty of not more the House), read a first time. than one hundred dollars. (3) Any person who hinders SALES BY AUCTION ACT any member of the police force AMENDMENT BILL of the State acting pursuant to Assembly's Amendments the power given to him by subsection (1) of this section shall be Amendments made by the Assembly now guilty of an offence and shall be considered. liable to a penalty of niot more Irn Committee than one hundred dollars. The Deputy Chairman of Committees To avoid any confusion I1shall deal with (The Hon. F. D. Willinott) in the Chair; the amendments made by the Legislative The Ron. J. M. Thomson in charge of the Assembly separately. Bill. The Hon. J. M. THOMSON: I move- The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The amend- That amendment No. 1 made by ments made by the Assembly are as fol- the Assembly be agreed to. lows- The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALP: This Bill has No. 1 had a long and checkered history in this Clause 5, page 3. lines 8 to 14-De- Chamber. It Is unnecessary for me to lete paragraph (b) and substitute remind members of the details of Its a new paragraph as follows-- passage. I am sure Mr. Jack Thomson is (b) immediately after each lot is keenly aware of the occasions on which purchased or passed In at he introduced similar Bills; and I am also such a sale, shall, under the sure that every member of this Parliament (Wednesday, 18 April, 19731 131035 and of the preceding parliament Is very In that sheep are not passed In at the familiar with the general details of the Midland markets. Undoubtedly, livestock measure before us. On three occasions, are passed in at country sales but not at three similar Bills were dealt with by this the Midland markets, unless there is a Chamber, and on several other occasions major strike or some similar failure of the parts of those measures were considered. system. The Chamber has considered the meas- The object is to sell the stock unless ure before us carefully. As a result of dis- there is some good reason for its not being cussions which took place between Mr. sold, such as a strike, or the abattoir not Jack Thomson and other members we being able to handle the number supplied. ended up with a Bill which, by common To begin with, by its very phraseology consent, was a reasonable piece of legisla- amendment No. 1 is not applicable to the ti on. We felt it would be of some benefit Midland salcyards. Nevertheless, the whole to the producers of livestock, without in- Purpose of the Bill is to deal with the flicting any great penalty on the industry. Midland saleyards. Sheep are not passed and It would not inflict any severe costs In at Midland and, therefore, the reference In the sale of livestock. "or passed in" does not have any applica- We must always bear in mind that it is tion. The reference would have applica- the farmer who pays the costs, and that tion In the country areas because a reserve the industry itself finally pays the excessive might be placed on the stock by the owner. costs which are introduced. It seems to me that this measure is primarily designed to cater for the situ- However, I regret to say I cannot ation In respect of certain country sales accept the amendments which have been which was so adequately outlined by Mr. proposed by the Legislative Assembly. It Jack Thonmson on previous occasions. The would be much easier for me, were I so words in the amendment to which I take minded, to agree to these amendments and exception are "immediately after each lot declare they seem to be reasonable. I could is purchased or passed in". thus accept them with good conscience. A clause to which we have already agreed The fact is I cannot accept them with a sets out that each day the auctioneer shall good or clear conscience, because to me complete the register under the respective the amendments Introduce an unworkable headings. That is the basic difference be- concept. tween the two amendments. The amend- In regard to the first amendment of the ment we are now discussing states, Assembly, I believe this legislation would "immediately after each lot is purchased". Prove to be harmful to the very people The difference is that under the provisions whom it is ostensibly Intended to protect. of a previous clause the auctioneer is If we agree to the first amendment we will allowed some time in which to complete his affect adversely the cost structure and the books, but under the provisions of this entire selling procedure relating to sheep amendment he will not be allowed that and cattle in this State. time. The Bill started off as an attempt to In the nine months up to the 30th March correct a situation which had developed of this year, 3,166,000 sheep have been sold at Albany. As a result of at Midland by all agents. In the corres- certain activities ponding period for last year the number which occurred there and in the great sold was 2,630,000. In other words, there southern the Bill was designed quite has been an increase of 530.000 sheep dur- genuinely by Mr. Jack Thomson to rectify ing that period. In the nine months up to that situation. It extends not only to the 30th March of this year, 139,000 cattle cattle sales, which were the immediate have been sold at Midland. The number cause of his concern, but also to sheep sold for the corresponding period in the sales and other sales at the Midland previous year was 101.000. There has been markets. an increase of 38,000 in that period. I wonder whether the mover of the Bill The Hon. S. T. J. Thompson: The num- has considered seriously the effect which ber of lots would be more relevant. these amendments will have on the sale of sheep at the Midland markets. It would The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: I will come be easy for me to agree to amendment No. to that. On a typical day at the Midland 1 if it did not have a serious effect, but market there is a yarding of 40,000 sheep, knowing what I do know as a result of with an average of 30 sheep to the lot. discussions I have had with livestock sales- That would mean not less than 1,300 lots to men and other people intimately involved be sold by auction on that day. The sale with the Midland markets I find I cannot cannot commence before 9.00 a.m. because agree to the proposed amendments. of the organisation which goes on before the sale, and it must be completed by sun- What the first amendment says is that down. There is a break of one hour for immediately after each lot is purchased or lunch because of union rules. In fact, the passed in, the register shall be completed; sale has to finish at 4.00 p.m. at the latest that is, the form appearing In the schedule because there Is a health requirement to to which we have given our. approval. To clean up the yards ready for the sale on begin with the Bill contains an anomaly, the following day. Also, delivery dockets 1036 1036COUNCIL.] have to be handled and the stock counted ownership of the sheep. When the sheep to the last head, because someone must be arrive at the saleyards a drafting officer liable for them. If 1,300 lots were sold the goes through the mob and separates them. average rate would be 200 lots an hour, He will put all the wethers on one side which is one lot every 18 seconds. That is and the ewes on another, and he will sep- a fairly fast rate. arate them for quality and type. He will A typical day for cattle would be about then Put them into their various lots and 2,500 yarded, forming about 625 lots with they will go into pens. The drafting officer four cattle per lot. The rate of selling looking at them for type, quality, etc., will would have to be 160 lots per hour, or one classify or draft the sheep into smaller lot eVery 221 seconds. groups--say, lots of 30. These are all According to the provisions already owned by one owner-the ownership is not passed, we allow the auctioneer the rest of mixed up. On the back of the card are the day to complete his register. When the the penning particulars, and the card fol- man wvas being tried in the Albany Court lows the sheep through. It contains a lot of Criminal Sessions Mr. Justice Virtue of other information. When he has the said, in his judgment, that it was reason- sheep drafted into a particular lot-say, able that an auctioneer be given a the whole of this mob-the drafting officer period of time to put his books in order. will then put on the card the name and That is the view of most people who have address of the owner, the truck number, any close contact with the sale of stock. etc. This is the information from the rail Of course, disputes do occur. If the Yards. He then mIs in the rest of this auctioneer, or his clerk, is expected to corn- section with the pen number, number of plete a further register over and above sheep, and description. In fact, at that what he is already doing-as each lot is stage the drafting officer hands over the sold and before moving onto the next lot- sheep in this small lot to the penning it cannot be done. As I have said, disputes officer. do occur and they have to be sorted out. I ask: How can a further register be kept The penning officer has an assistant in addition to all that work? further up, near the pens. The penning officer actually writes in the pen number The code of the Western Australian live- and the number of sheep--say, 30 sheep. stock salesmen sets out a minimum speed pen number 146. He calls this out to of 40 lots of sheep each half hour. In the assistant penning officer and he practice, the minimum rate has to be ex- physically follows the sheep up the race. ceeded. They are counted out and put Into that I seriously ask members to search their pen. The minute they are taken from the consciences as to whether they believe it is mob by the drafting officer, they are count- reasonable or possible to expect an ed out, checked by the penning officer, and auctioneer at Midland, immediately after checked into the pen. each lot is sold, to enter all the details in a register. In any event, a good deal of The system is as foolproof as it can be that information is noted by the clerks in when it is realised that 40,000 sheep may the central office at Midland. have arrived that morning. The card contains the description of the sheep-for The Hon. L. A. Logan: The amounts for instance, merino wethers, export quality. the sales would be pencilled in. It also contains the numbers of the pens The Hon. 1. 0. MEflCALF: But we are into which all the sheep from that particu- asking the auctioneer not only to fill in the lar draft have been put. The card is then amount of the sale, but also a lot of other initialled by the drafter, to start with, and detail as well. then by the penning officer and the person It might appear that I am starting at the who unloaded the sheep in the first place. wrong end with my argument, but it is The card is put into a letterbox-there are much easier to commence with the time many letterboxes all over the place-and a that the sheep enter the Midland saleyards. runner comes out from the office, empties The stock go through various stages of the boxes, and takes the contents to the being penned and drafted, and eventually central office where clerks are engaged en- they reach the rail of the auctioneer. The tering these vital details in triplicate on auctioneer usually has a clerk on each side the sheep clerking sheet, which contains of him, and each clerk has a sheet which the pen number, the name of the vendor, is of a set form, and it contains certain the number of sheep in the pen, and the information relevant to the particular description of the sheep. sale. To illustrate the problems of the Those four Items are entered on auctioneer I feel I will have to refer back the sheep clerking sheet. Of the three to the beginning of the system at Midland. copies, one Is kept for the office records and When the sheep arrive by rail a card the others are sent out to the runner. The containing certain information is attached auctioneer is between them; they are not to each end of the rail truck. One of the allowed to crib. The idea of having two cards is retained by the Railways Depart- copies is to provide an independent method ment, and the other goes with the sheep. of obtaining the numbers and the name The card shows details concerning the of the buyer. [Wednesday, 18 April, 1973] 103703

The auctioneer Is selling all the time. He of the evidence submitted at the Albany has a run and be has to get through it. court, which states that after the stock All this information is being written down. had been sold Mr. Bilder, the auctioneer, If there is an error or something that does issued instructions to the clerk to alter not tally, an endeavour is made to check, the entry to another name, and the stock and the arbitrator is the auctioneer. Some- were resold. Those who were instrumental times they are so pushed that they cannot in proposing this amendment in the Legis- do more than tear off the cards and band lative Assembly wanted to avoid the pos- them to the runner, who takes them back sib ility of a recurrence of the situation to to the office. If any discrepancy occurs, which I have referred. That is the reason the final reconciliation is inserted in the for the amendment. office. It is checked in the office. Some- I think it is necessary to take into con- times it can be sorted out there; though sideration the situation which confronts not always. the People at sales in country districts. We Simply put, that is the system. I have have heard much about what happens at dealt only with bringing the sheep in by Midland Junction. In view of the impor- rail. Ninety per cent. of the sheep come tance of this matter, I cannot see that in on trucks, but a similar system applies much extra expense or difficulty will be and the principle is much the same, except involved for the stock firms if the registrar that the truck driver gets the sheet, which follows up immediately and tills in the de- contains the same information-descrip- tails required under the Proposed legislation, brand, name and address of owner, tion. It is very desirable that we avoid the and so on. Possibility of alterations being made after I have gone to some pains to ascertain, the sale. right from the horse's mouth, what the The amendment under discussion was process is, It will be obvious to members brought about because of the malpractices that it would be extremely difficult, as each of certain Individuals who have brought lot is sold, for either the auctioneer-as tis upon the industry. we are asking him to do in the amend- menk-or even the clerks in the office to The Hon. A. F. Griffith: What was the complete the register at that particular date of the trial9? point in time. We are asking them to do The Hon. something It is not possible to do in these J. M. THOMSON- The 10th circumstances. January, 1969. I therefore strongly urge that we do The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Have there not proceed with the suggestion from the been any other similar occurrences since Legislative Assembly which, as I say, may then? be quite relevant where there is no pres- The Hon. J. M. THOMSON: That is a sure, but at some of the country sales there good question. I shall answer it in a is also plenty of pressure. The system in moment. I will not mention any names the country is different. These forms are but, as names have been mentioned from not used. A Yard book is used instead of time to time, I felt constrained to make the sheep clerking sheet. It has a stiff the comment I1 made a moment ago. Do cover because it must be taken out in all not let us delude ourselves that this prac- weather and conditions. There may be tice is not in existence today. I have it minor variations but basically the same from reliable sources that two people in the principle is followed right throughout the south-west Portion of this State have been State. indulging in this Practice in recent times. I do not propose to say any more at this I am not prone to making statements that stage but I reseryve the right to comment cannot be substantiated, but do not let further. us run away with the idea that because some People have suffered the penalty the The Hon. J. Mv.THOMSON: The amend- same Practice ment proposed by the Legislative Assembly has not occurred since. camne about because of the alteration of the Those who indulged in the mnalpractices record upon the instruction of an auc- are responsible for this amendment being tioneer from a certain stock fim at Satan- framed-not the people who complained ning, I think. Mr. Medealf gave his name about them, and not I who brought the as Mr. Builder. legislation to the House In an endeavour The H-on. I. 0. Medealf: He was only one to rectify the situation. The police have from time to time drawn attention to the of several. present set-up. The situation is such The Hon. J. M. THOMSON: That does that -something of this nature should be not exonerate him. written into the Bill, and I trust the Com- The Hon. 1. 0. Medealf: He was not the mittee will agree to amendment No. 1 on only one involved. the notice paper. The Hon. J. M. THOMSON: That is Mr. The Hon. Rt. THOMPSON: Last year I Medealt a opinion. I am not here to de- mentioned that the department had a fend the actions of the auctioneers or the responsibility to see that the Bill is in stock firms In this regard. I have a report order. Fom time to time it is claimed in 1038 1038COUNCIL.] this Chamber when legislation from an- The Hon. S. T. J. Thompson: The buyer other place is amended that such legisla- accepts the check-out, and not the number tion Is better off for it. on this occasion on the card. the Bill left here and was amended in The Hon. R. THOMPSON: Yes, of another place. The Minister in another course. The same applies in the produce place agreed to the amendment. markets. Someone may inadvertently The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Did he move it? take a couple of cases of tomatoes and a person who bought 20 cases might find be The Hon. R. THOMP1SON: No, but it has only 18. was discussed. In this case the other place The Hon. 1. 0. Medcalf: One does not has amended the measure so that it is in have to sign every time one sells a case of a better form than when it left this Cham- tomatoes. ber, and it is acceptable to the Minister The Hon. R. THOMPSON: I1know, be- controlling the department. cause we excluded them from the legisla- I think Mr. Medcalf drew a lamb's tal tion. across the trail regarding the schedule. The Hon. 1. G. Medcalf: Well now you The form would be filled in long before are trying to put it into this Act. the auction commenced. We must not forget there is more than one auctioneer; The Hon. R. THOMPSON: I have always they work in series. All that Is required defended auctioneers, because I know how when the lot is knocked down is that the difficult is their job. price be inserted and initialled, because The Hon. 1. G. Medcalf: Now you are the other particulars would already be on trying to pillory them. the form. The amendment does not say The Hon. R. THOMPSON: I am the auctioneer must make the entry; it astounded that obviously the honourable says he must make or cause to be made member does not know what is In the an accurate entry. Bill. The Hon. A. P, Griffith: Who would be The Hon. 1. 0. Medcalf: I know what is responsible if a mistake occurred? in the Bill and what is in the Act. The Hon. R. THOMPSON: I think he The Hon. R. THOMPSON: auctioneer, but he is already responsibleThe had better have another look at it. at the moment and the situation will not The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: Last year change. I was extremely critical of this Bill, and I repeat my criticism now. We have before The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Let us assume us an amendment made in another place, someone else made the entry. Would the and Mr. Jack Thomson has moved that It auctioneer still be responsible? be agreed to. The only explanation we The Eon. R. THOMPSON: Yes, just as have had regarding why we should agree to he is now. it was from Mr. Ron Thompson. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: But at the I do not believe we should be going over the history of what happened in 1969. I moment he is not required to do all the think the fact that a person was caught things laid down in the amendment. He and punished for an offence is no explana- will not have to do them, but he will be tion why we should accept the amendment responsible for them? in lieu of what is contained in the Bill. The Hon. R. THOMPSON: He does not That is the only explanation Mr. Jack do them at present. He will still give this Thomson has given. work to his clerks. The schedule will The Hon. J. M. Thomson: That is the already be filled in and it requires only reason for the Bill being presented. the price to be inserted and initialled. The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: That is The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: What If not a good enough reason; we deserve bet- there are two less sheep in the pen; would ter. The honourable member should be it be quite legal to correct the books? trying to convince me, but so far he has given no explanation regarding why the The Hon. R. THOMPSON: It would be amendment is preferable to what is at the same as at present. The amendment present contained in the Bill. will not make a scrap of difference. The Hon. J. M. Thomson: I am surprised. The H-on. D. J. Wordsworth: He has I thought my explanation conveyed the already signed a declaration concerning reason. the number of sheep. The Hon. A. P. Griffith: Your explan- The Hon. I. G. Medcalf: He cannot be ation was as clear as mud. certain the number shown is correct in all The Hon. 0. C. MacKINNON: The cases. He must have time to adjust his honourable member's first speech consisted books. only of moving that the amendment be The Hon. R. THOMPSON: If he is agreed to. selling as many lots as the honourable The Hon. R. Thompson: That is all that member claims he is selling probably one inecessary. hour later he would not remember that The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: 'Is it? there were two less sheep in a particular I would have liked to try that when I was Pen. on the other side. We are entitled to and [Wednesday, 18 April, 19731 1039 expect an explanation. Mr. Medealf point- The Hon. R. THOMPSON: This amended out the mistakes in the amendment, and ment, if It is to be accepted, should be in- I have Yet to hear an explanation in favour serted after the word "immediately" in of it other than the one given by Mr. Ron line 1. In any case I do not favour the Thompson. I know about auctions: I cut amendment at all. my teeth on off-shears sales in the south- west, where stock were sold in large quan- The Hon. S. T. J. THOMPSON: I think titles, although the conditions were not as we must make sure that it is done on that hectic as those applying at Midland. day. We have provisions on the Statute book The Hon. F. R. WHITE: I draw the at- Prohibiting the committal of murder, and tention of Mr. Syd Thompson to the last although in the main we catch most three lines of the amendment from ano- murderers, we do not say the laws are use- ther place, because according to the words less because occasionally a murderer gets in those lines the action must be away. Yet strangely enough in this ease taken on that day. the situation is not as bad as that because the Person concerned has been caught and The Hon. S. T. J. Thompson: No. Punished. Tonight we have heard of an- The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: I am in- other case in the south-west of a person debted to Mr. White for his suggestion who has yet to be apprehended. I take It which would Provide the solution to an that the member who referred to that case would be responsible enough to impart his otherwise impossible predicament of the knowledge to the authorities in order that livestock auctioneers. I do not agree with the offender may be punished. I think Mr. Mr. Ron Thompson that the amendment Medcalf made it abundantly clear that this should be inserted earlier because this amendment will make conditions extremely would mean that the provision could not difficult in the major sheep selling areas, be enforced. I do not think we want to simply for the sake of a small gain ina pass a law which is not a practicable Particular corner of the State. proposition. The Hon. C. R. ABBEY: As Mr. Mac- The Hon. L. A. Logan: He would do it Kinnon has pointed out, we all know that after each run? Provided we can apprehend wrongdoers The Hon. I. G. MEDCALF: Yes, that is and bring them to Justice we will achieve right. the desired objective. I believe the original Provision produced last year was quite ade- The Hon. R. THOMPSON: As I said, I quate in that regard. The amendment is do not like the amendment. I think we an endeavour to tighten up the situation are starting to play with words and we a little more, but it will make the job of will not solve anything by doing so. I auctioneers more difficult. I have taken feel sure that Mr. Medcalf will agree with the trouble to discuss the matter with me that the schedules will be made up be- senior stock executives of two major firms, fore the auction sale starts. and they were horrified at the implications of the amendment because to comply with The Hon. 1. 0. Medoalt: No, I do not it they will require more staff. Let me agree with You. assure members that skilled staff are not The Hon. R. THOMPSON: They could easily found. I think the original provision possibly be typed out and would Include is quite adequate and there is no need to the price and the buyer. All the clerk would make it more stringent. I hope Mr. Jack be required to do would be to initial them. Thomson will not proceed with the While on my feet I would like to refer amendment. to a remark made by Mr. Medcalf who The Hon. F. It. WHITE: I am sympa- seems to think that because I spoke of thetic to the views expressed by Mr. Jack tomatoes in the Perth markets, this amend- Thomson and also to those expressed by ing Bill Would deal With all produce. Mr. Medcalf. It would appear that the amendment with which we are dealing The Hon. I. 0. Medcalf: No. I said that could be a practical proposition In respect the Act deals with farm produce. of country sales, but would be quite im- The Hon. R. THOMPSON: The Act does, practical in respect of the sales at Mid- but we are not discussing an amending Bill land. to the Act. The Hon. C. Rt. Abbey: That's for sure. The Hon. 1. 0. Medcalf: I thought YOU The Hon. F. R. WITE: However T 4o were referring to the Act. feel that both parties could be adequately The Hon. R. THOMPSON: The honour- satisfied by an appropriate compromise. I able members knows very well I was not. therefore move- That the amendment be amended The Hon. I. G. Medcalf: I would not as follows- have said it if I knew that, would I? Line 3-Insert after the word The Hon. R. THOMPSON: Mr. Jack "sale" in Proposed new paragraph Thomson has inserted a new definition of (b) the words "or as soon as Is cattle in order that produce might be ex- Practicable". cluded. [COUNCIL.]

Getting back to the amendment, I am Jack Thomson asked me, when I was Min- not in favour of it, but if it is the wish of ister for Justice, to introduce a Bill to give the Committee that it be included, natur- effect to the very proposals with which we ally this will be done. are now dealing. I produced a Bill for him The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: I am but it did not suit him, so we did not go afraid I cannot agree with Mr. Ron on with it. For the last five years we have Thompson. We are now making the auc- had the confounded thing brought before tioneer sign a declaration stating the US. number of sheep involved. if he sign that The Hon. R. Thompson: It is getting hurriedly in the 15 seconds between lots rather like Blue Hills[ and hands it to the policeman, he could be The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I stress that liable to a $500 fine if the information is we have not neglected our purpose. We incorrect. have tried to help the honourable member The Hon. R. Thompson: Don't be ridicu- in what he is seeking. lous! The Hon, J. M. Thomson: Which I The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: That appreciate. will be the law under the amendment. if we do not intend that the law be insisted The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The lion- upon, why make it in the first place? ow-able member has an odd way of showing it. A workable solution has been put 1 believe the amendment Is very good forw~ard which Is acceptable, and now we and will allow a reasonable time in which are having trouble with something that has the auctioneer might check his figures. The been sent to us by the Legislative Assembly. amendment is in line with the Judge's statement read by Mr. Medcalf, so I sup- Mr. Jack Thomson did not give us any port it. reason why he did not like the amendment and yet he talks about Mr. MacKinnon The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: The point having given no reason to support his raised by Mr. Syd Thompson bothers me a statements, Why do not we, therefore, little because I believe that what he said accept the amendment put forward by Mr. has some merit. However, I do believe that White and put an end to the thing once the words "on that day" should be inserted and for all? We could give it a try; other- to mnake the position clear. I therefore in- wise we will have the Bill back again next tend to move a further amendment. year. The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (The H-on. The Hon. R. F. CLAtIGHTON: Although P. D. Willmott): The honourable mem- I do not necessarily favour the amendment ber cannot move a further amendment at I feel that Mr. White's amendment would this stage. succeed. The effect of the amendment will The Ron. J. M. THOMSON: I would pre- be to bring the proposals we have before fer the amendment as it appears on the us back to what existed In the original Bill, notice paper because I believe it adequately and the autioneer will be able to give reas- covers the position. I therefore trust the ons why it Is not Practicable for him to Committee will not accept the amendment make an entry at that time, particularly If on the amendment. he is challenged about it. I am sorry that Mr. MacKinnon Is not The Hon. J. Dolan: He could make it a in his place because he attempted to take week later. me to task for referring to the episode The Hon. R. F. CLAtIORTON: It must which was responsible for the introduction be done on that day. If he is asked why of the legisation. I believe that If aLperson he did not make the entry immediately introduces legislation he should give his after the sale he could say that he was reasons for doing so and I tender no busy doing something and his clerk was apologies to the Committee for referring to busy doing something else and it was not the episode because I feel that it is impor- practicable at the time. tant to do so. Any member of the Com- mittee is entitled to take another member The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Surely he Is to task for a statement which, In his opin- entitled to a reasonable excuse for not ion, is wrong. I am equally entitled to that doing it at the split second. privilege. I see no reason for any object- The Hon. R. F. CL.AUGHTON: The tion to be raised If at any time during the effect would be to provide him with an Committee stage I refer to the necessity excuse whether it was a reasonable one or for the introduction of the Bill. not. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH:, I do not The Hon. A. F. Griffith: You imagine all think it is fair for Mr. Jack Thomson to auctioneers are criminals. say that we neglected our purpose. The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: The The Hon. J. M. Thomson: When did I honourable member also imagines a lot of say that? things and though he makes statements he The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The first often cannot substantiate them. time we heard anything about this pro- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: If I pull your posal was about five years ago when Mr. nose I will not be imagining it. [Wednesday, 18 April, 1973] 104194 The Hon. R, F. CLAUGHTON: I do not The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (The Hon. F. mean to imply that Mr. Jack Thomson's D). Wilhnottl: If you do that you will have view is not a good one, but I feel members to go on with your other amendment. Is may consider that the amendment which that your desire? came from the Assembly is a better one. The Hon. J. M. THOMSON: Yes. The Hon. L. A. LOGAN: It is evident that the word "Immediately" cannot poss- The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: The com- ibly apply to certain auctions. We know ments I wish to make on the other amend- pencilling is going on all the time; the ments are bound in with this amendment register is made up and the clerks; are and accordingly It would be preferable to running back from the sale to the office. report progress. It is not long after the completion of the sale that the register is completed. Progress Frm the dictionary definition of "im- Progress reported and leave given to sit mediately" we would be putting something again, on motion by The Hon. J. M., Thom- into the Act which would not be practic- son. able. We should not do that. I think we are getting close to agreement that some ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE: alteration should be made. SPECIAL The problem appears to be that at the THE HON. 3. DOLAN (South-East end of the day and after the auction sale Metropolitan-Leader of the House) [9.30 It may be possible for someone to falsify P.m.): I move- the books. The word "immediately" would mean that the auctioneer would have to That the House at its rising adjourn keep the register right up to date. In some until 2.00 p.m. tomorrow (Thursday). cases auctions are held for example at I would like the sitting to finish somewhere 11 o'clock in Perenjori, at 1 o'clock in around 4 o'clock tomorrow. Good Friday Morawa, and at 3 o'clock at Three Springs. eve is one of the worst days of the year so The auctioneer must carry out his job after far as traffic is concerned. I am sure each sale. This cannot be done because country members would like to be out of the auctioneer is on a platform, and even the city and on their way home before the after 30 seconds it would be impossible for traffic becomes really heavy. the auctioneer to sign the register to say Question put and passed. it is a true record. House adjourned at 9.31 p.m. Despite the amendments suggested Mr. Jack Thomson now knows that he has some support, and I suggest that he re- Port progress and ask leave to sit again to ensure that the Job is done properly. iaegit~tinr Aimtlu The Hon. R. THOMPSON: I think Mr. Logan's suggestion is a goad one. I Wednesday, the lath April, 1973 feel that Mr. White might seek the per- mission of the Committee to withdraw his amendment. He would then delete the words "after each lot is purchased or The SPEAKER (Mr. Norton) took the Passed in at such a". This would be im- Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. mediately at the conclusion of the sale. PERTH-LEIGHTON RAILWAY LINE The Hon. A. F. Griffith: Why not get a draftsman to do the Job? Conversion to Busmay: Urgency Motion The Hon. F. R. WHITE: Mr. Logan has THE SPEAKER (Mr. Norton):- Under suggested that Mr. Jack Thomson report Standing Order 49 I have received the progress to discuss a satisfactory com- following letter from the Leader of the promise. I do not think it Is necessary Opposition- for me to seek leave to withdraw my I desire to seek your approval to amendment at this stage. If progress is move when the Legislative Assembly reported I would be happy to withdraw It meets at 4.30 p.m. today for the ad- when the matter is brought up again. journment of the House as a matter The Hon. R. THOMPSON: I take it of urgency for the purpose of discuss- we will report progress on this clause only. ing the following- The position that has developed The Hon. 1. 0. MEDCALF: It would not following the announcement by be appropriate for Mr. White to withdraw Railway Unions and now con- his amendment at this stage, and I hope firmed by the Premier that the Mr. Jack Thomson will report Progress Premier gave the Unions an un- without further ado to permit us to discuss dertaking in July 1972 that the some reasonable amendments. Government would abandon a The Hon. J. M. THOMSON: I would like plan to turn the railway line be- to move that we postpone consideration of tween Leighton and Perth into a amendment No. 1. busway. The Premier has also