Hansard — Thursday, October 6, 2005 P.M. — Vol. 2, No. 3 (PDF)

First Session, 38th Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF

DEBATES OF THE

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(HANSARD)

Thursday, October 6, 2005

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 2, Number 3

THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER

ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Iona V. Campagnolo, CM, OBC

FIRST SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations ...... Hon. John van Dongen Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ...... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism...... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development...... Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of State for Childcare ...... Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues...... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics...... Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...... Hon. Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...... Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...... Hon. Barry Penner Minister of Finance...... Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Health ...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services ...... Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. John Les Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Deregulation ...... Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sports and the Arts...... Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Transportation...... Hon. Kevin Falcon

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Official Opposition ...... Carole James Deputy Speaker ...... Sindi Hawkins Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk ...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ...... Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ...... Jane Taylor Acting Legislative Comptroller...... Brent Cunningham

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L) ...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Clayburn ...... Hon. John van Dongen Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford–Mount Lehman...... Hon. Michael de Jong Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Alberni-Qualicum ...... Scott Fraser Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...... Dennis MacKay Bell, Hon. Pat (L) ...... Prince George North Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bennett, Hon. Bill (L) ...... East Kootenay Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Iain (L) ...... Port Moody–Westwood Burnaby-Willingdon ...... John Nuraney Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burquitlam Burquitlam...... Harry Bloy Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Mount Robson Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey–Panorama Ridge Cariboo South...... Charlie Wyse Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Chilliwack-Kent ...... Hon. Barry Penner Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Nanaimo-Parksville Chilliwack-Sumas ...... Hon. John Les Chong, Hon. Ida (L) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Comox Valley ...... Hon. Stan Hagen Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ...... Okanagan-Vernon Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Chudnovsky, Dave (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Cowichan-Ladysmith ...... Doug Routley Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Delta North...... Guy Gentner Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta South...... Valerie Roddick Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... West Kootenay–Boundary East Kootenay ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Coons, Gary (NDP) ...... North Coast Esquimalt-Metchosin ...... Maurine Karagianis Cubberley, David (NDP)...... Saanich South Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman de Jong, Hon. Michael (L) ...... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Kamloops ...... Hon. Claude Richmond Dix, Adrian (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Thompson...... Kevin Krueger Evans, Corky (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Al Horning Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kelowna-Mission ...... Sindi Hawkins Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Langley...... Mary Polak Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria-Hillside Malahat–Juan de Fuca...... John Horgan Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni-Qualicum Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Randy Hawes Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ...... Comox Valley Nanaimo ...... Leonard Krog Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo-Parksville...... Ron Cantelon Hansen, Hon. Colin (L) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nelson-Creston...... Corky Evans Hawes, Randy (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission New Westminster...... Chuck Puchmayr Hawkins, Sindi (L) ...... Kelowna-Mission North Coast ...... Gary Coons Hayer, Dave S. (L) ...... Surrey-Tynehead North Island...... Claire Trevena Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Katherine Whittred Horgan, John (NDP)...... Malahat–Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Daniel Jarvis Horning, Al (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)...... Richmond Centre Okanagan-Vernon ...... Hon. Tom Christensen James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Okanagan-Westside...... Hon. Rick Thorpe Jarvis, Daniel (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Peace River North ...... Hon. Richard Neufeld Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Peace River South ...... Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton–Okanagan Valley...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Mike Farnworth Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Westwood ...... Iain Black Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Yale-Lillooet Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George North ...... Hon. Pat Bell Lekstrom, Blair (L)...... Peace River South Prince George–Mount Robson...... Hon. Shirley Bond Les, Hon. John (L)...... Chilliwack-Sumas Prince George–Omineca ...... John Rustad Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Richmond Centre ...... Hon. Olga Ilich MacKay, Dennis (L)...... Bulkley Valley–Stikine Richmond East ...... Hon. Linda Reid Mayencourt, Lorne (L)...... Vancouver-Burrard Richmond-Steveston ...... John Yap McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) ...... Peace River North Saanich South...... David Cubberley Nuraney, John (L)...... Burnaby-Willingdon Shuswap ...... Hon. George Abbott Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Skeena ...... Robin Austin Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Kent Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Polak, Mary (L) ...... Langley Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...... New Westminster Surrey-Newton ...... Harry Bains Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey–Panorama Ridge...... Jagrup Brar Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ...... Richmond East Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Richmond, Hon. Claude (L)...... Kamloops Surrey-Whalley ...... Bruce Ralston Robertson, Gregor (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Roddick, Valerie (L)...... Delta South Vancouver-Burrard ...... Lorne Mayencourt Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Cowichan-Ladysmith Vancouver-Fairview...... Gregor Robertson Rustad, John (L) ...... Prince George–Omineca Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Kensington ...... David Chudnovsky Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Langara...... Hon. Carole Taylor Sultan, Ralph (L) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Taylor, Hon. Carole (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Thorne, Diane (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Hon. Colin Hansen Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L)...... Okanagan-Westside Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Victoria-Hillside...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, Hon. John (L)...... Abbotsford-Clayburn West Kootenay–Boundary ...... Katrine Conroy Whittred, Katherine (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Ralph Sultan Wyse, Charlie (NDP) ...... Cariboo South West Vancouver–Garibaldi...... Joan McIntyre Yap, John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Yale-Lillooet ...... Harry Lali

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33

CONTENTS

Thursday, October 6, 2005 Afternoon Sitting

Routine Proceedings

Page

Introductions by Members ...... 561

Introduction and First Reading of Bills...... 562 Forests and Range Statutes Amendment Act, 2005 (Bill 10) Hon. R. Coleman

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 562 Government support for first nations J. McIntyre Mental illness awareness C. Wyse Richmond Youth Soccer Association J. Yap Public transit R. Fleming Cooperative governance in B.C. J. Nuraney David Walton S. Simpson

Oral Questions...... 564 Government role in teachers labour dispute C. James Hon. S. Bond Hon. M. de Jong D. Thorne J. Horgan J. Kwan Access to nutritional supplements for income assistance recipients C. Trevena Hon. C. Richmond Government support for social housing D. Routley Hon. R. Coleman Government support for low-income seniors R. Chouhan Hon. G. Abbott

Tabling Documents...... 569 Forest Appeals Commission, annual report, 2004 Hon. R. Coleman

Second Reading of Bills...... 569 Teachers' Collective Agreement Act (Bill 12) (continued) R. Chouhan G. Coons D. Cubberley M. Sather G. Gentner B. Lekstrom

Motions without Notice ...... 589 Continuation of sitting beyond ordinary hour of adjournment M. Farnworth A. Dix J. Kwan Hon. M. de Jong

Second Reading of Bills...... 594 Teachers' Collective Agreement Act (Bill 12) (continued) M. Karagianis G. Robertson S. Hammell C. Trevena J. Kwan R. Fleming C. Wyse C. James J. Horgan L. Krog D. Cubberley Hon. M. de Jong A. Dix S. Fraser G. Coons R. Chouhan H. Bains G. Gentner B. Simpson C. Trevena M. Sather C. Evans R. Austin J. Brar D. Thorne C. Puchmayr M. Farnworth K. Conroy N. Macdonald C. James D. Routley S. Simpson B. Ralston D. Chudnovsky J. Horgan

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 719 Estimates: Ministry of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors' and Women's Issues (continued) Hon. I. Chong M. Karagianis C. Trevena N. Macdonald J. Horgan C. Wyse B. Simpson S. Fraser

561

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 M. Polak: I would like to introduce to the House Daryl Racette. I had the pleasure of working with The House met at 2:02 p.m. Daryl when I was part of the aboriginal education advisory committee in the Surrey school district. Would Introductions by Members the House please make Daryl welcome.

C. Puchmayr: It is my pleasure to introduce to the M. Karagianis: In the gallery today we have eight House today Carol Arnold, who resides in my con- people who represent a very innovative entrepreneu- stituency. Carol is of Métis-Cree heritage and is sec- rial enterprise called Street Newz. Street Newz represents onded to the Gulf Islands school district to work as a and is an entrepreneurial effort on behalf of all those faculty associate at Simon Fraser University. She's en- who live in poverty on the streets. I would like to in- gaged in teacher education with the indigenous peo- troduce Janine Bandcroft, Ted Hawryluk, Ken Bath, ple's teaching education module. It is important to note Robin Kingsley, my good friend Rose Henry, Robert that 60 percent of Canada's aboriginal population lives Lightheart-Jones, Jim Hedger, Diane Wallrich and in B.C. and that this segment of the population is the Larry Wartel. Would you please make them welcome fastest growing in western Canada. The majority of here today. first nations are under the age of 25. Carol is part of a delegation of the public school teachers from across the Hon. J. van Dongen: I'm pleased to introduce to the province, and she serves as co-chair of the aboriginal House today a special visitor from the United King- education committee for the B.C. Federation of Teach- dom. I'm pleased to welcome Martin Cronin, the newly ers. Please give her a warm welcome. appointed consul general for the United Kingdom in Vancouver. He's here for meetings with a number of

ministers mainly on trade, commerce and energy is- Hon. L. Reid: I am pleased to welcome to the sues, and we welcome him to British Columbia and chamber today Lynda Croft Reynolds Turney, who wish him well today. I ask the House to please make indeed has been a friend of mine for 33 years. I would him welcome. ask the House to please make her welcome.

L. Krog: With great pleasure I introduce three D. Chudnovsky: I have two introductions to make guests today. One of my old classmates from law today. First, I'd like to introduce to the House Sheila school, a senior public servant from Ottawa, Milly Maracle, who is a constituent of mine. Sheila is from Nickason. Accompanying her is her mother Millicent the Mohawk nation in southern Ontario. She's lived in Nickason and her uncle Dr. Gilbert Ogilvy. I'd ask the B.C. for the past 15 years and has taught for ten years House to please make them welcome. in Vancouver's inner city, where the schools have a majority of aboriginal students in their class. Please D. Routley: I would like to welcome to the House a make Sheila welcome. friend and constituent, Brock Mcleod, a fine activist, a I'd also like the House to welcome Christine Stew- defender of education. I would like the House to please art, who is a Ganada and citizen of the Nisga'a Nation. make him welcome. She's a Vancouver teacher, and Christine has just de- fended her master's degree in July. The topic was in- R. Hawes: Years ago, when the Minister of Ag- digenous teachers working in lower mainland public riculture was a young man still trying to find his schools. Please welcome Christine Stewart. way, he met a mentor that straightened out his life [1405] and taught him everything that he now knows. That mentor is in the gallery today, Mr. Ted Adlem. R. Lee: In the House today we have some visitors He happens to also be the president of my riding from Guangdong, China. We have Jock Zhao, section association. Could the House please make him wel- chief of the Zhongshan Overseas Chinese Affairs Bu- come. reau; Mr. Yan Lin and Mr. Jianing Song from Zhong- [1410] shan Radio and Television Station; Mr. John Zhang, principal of the Bond Language Institute. Accompany- G. Coons: I'm pleased and honoured to have the ing them is Mr. Lincoln Liu, president of the Victoria privilege of introducing a good friend and colleague Hook Sin Tong Charity. Would the House please make from Haida Gwaii. She's one of my constituents. She's them welcome. an aboriginal teacher from Tsimshian nation. Her traditional name is Bilham Yuks, which means pearl on the R. Austin: It's my privilege today to introduce two fin of the killer whale. She is from the Git'le'giux tribe members who are visiting here. They are both constitu- from the house of Meduck, grizzly bear. Her crest is ents of mine and friends. The first is Sue Spalding — killer whale. She has been a proud member of the B.C. she's a member of the Tsimshian nation — and her Teachers Federation for five years, and she currently partner Shane Pauls, who is a member of the Tahltan teaches grades two and three in Skidegate on Haida nation. They are both aboriginal educators. I would Gwaii. Please join me in welcoming Michelle Davies to like the House to please make them welcome. the House today.

562 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005

Hon. K. Falcon: Today in the House we are joined Hon. R. Coleman: I move that Bill 10 be introduced by three members of the Elliot family. They are three and read a first time now. young people. Two of them are full-time students, one is a high school student, and one is a full-time SFU Motion approved. student. I would like to welcome Molly Elliot, Nigel Elliot, and Caroline Elliot, affectionately known to fam- Hon. R. Coleman: I'm introducing Bill 10, which ily and friends as Boomer. Will the House please make proposes amendments to three forestry statutes: the them welcome. Forestry Revitalization Act; the Forest and Range Prac- tices Act, or FRPA; and the Wildfire Act. S. Simpson: I'm very pleased today to welcome my The proposed changes to the Forestry Revitaliza- good friend and a good friend of many on this side of tion Act correct the schedule to reflect the current own- the House, Cheryl Hewitt. Cheryl has been a longtime ers of licences and allows further updates to be made to advocate in the health care and cooperative move- the schedule as they are required. This bill also makes ments. Importantly, she is a lifetime member and activ- parallel amendments to the Forest and Range Practices ist in our party. She is currently the treasurer of the Act and the Wildfire Act. These amendments clearly provincial NDP. I'm pleased to say that she managed authorize the compliance and enforcement actions that my election campaign, and I thank her very much for may be taken for past contravention of the Forest Prac- all that work. Please make her welcome. tices Code of British Columbia Act and for contraventions of the grandparented code under which some G. Hogg: This morning I had the honour of meeting licensees continue to operate while they transition to with a resident of Surrey–White Rock. She's an abo- the Forest and Range Practices Act. riginal teacher in the Surrey school district. Her name The amendments ensure that all contraventions of is Gaaxstalas Wedlidi. She's a member of the Tlowitsis the code are subject to the compliance and enforcement first nation. She's a passionate teacher who cares actions set out under the Forest and Range Practices deeply about the services provided to the students of Act or the Wildfire Act. These amendments will ensure Surrey and this province. Would you please make her that the government can continue to protect the forest most welcome. and rangelands for all British Columbians. I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the G. Gentner: It's with great pleasure I introduce to day for second reading at the next sitting of the House the House Lynda Toews, a teacher from my constitu- after today. ency of Delta North, although us colonials refer to it as north Delta. Lynda teaches adult basic and special edu- Bill 10, Forests and Range Statutes Amendment cation at the Invergarry adult centre in Surrey and is an Act, 2005, introduced, read a first time and ordered to executive member of the BCTF. Could the House be placed on orders of the day for second reading at please give her a warm welcome. the next sitting of the House after today.

[1415] M. Sather: I want to add my welcome to a member of my constituency, Millie Nickason, who is here today. Millie is 82 years old and just full of life. She recently came Statements to my constituency office asking that assistance be pro- (Standing Order 25B) vided for people who are seeking treatment across the river in terms of getting there — not for herself, but for GOVERNMENT SUPPORT others. Would all members please make her welcome. FOR FIRST NATIONS

M. Farnworth: I'm pleased this afternoon to intro- J. McIntyre: I'm pleased to rise today to report to duce to the House Laura Rudland, who is a teacher in the House that I had the privilege of attending the the Vancouver school district and lives in my constitu- Premier's announcement last week of the provincial ency. Laura is also president of the First Nations Edu- government's doubling the funding to $6 million for cation Association, Provincial Specialist Association. the Squamish-Lillooet cultural centre in Whistler, in She's also a member of the Metlakatla nation. I would my riding. This centre will showcase first nations his- ask the House to please make Laura welcome. tory and culture and will be a lasting legacy for generations to come from hosting the 2010 games. Introduction and It also demonstrates the benefit of partnerships not First Reading of Bills only between two first nations but among first nations, various levels of government and the private sector — FORESTS AND RANGE STATUTES in this case, Bell Canada — who have combined re- AMENDMENT ACT, 2005 sources to build what will be a tremendous cultural addition to the region. Building new arts and culture Hon. R. Coleman presented a message from His facilities will have the added benefit of reinforcing Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled Forests and Whistler's status as a first-class international four- Range Statutes Amendment Act, 2005. season resort.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 563

Throughout the past year I have had the privilege would be soccer — and the occasion of the 50th anni- of developing constructive relationships with first na- versary of the Richmond Youth Soccer Association. tions leaders in my constituency as we work together [1420] to advance this government's commitment to build I recently had the opportunity to be a guest along new relationship with first nations. I have had various with the Minister of Tourism, Sports and the Arts at the meetings with the Squamish nation, Lillooet, Nek- wonderful dinner held to celebrate this anniversary at wakwa, the newly formed Iskut nation, as well as the the Vancouver Austrian Club in Richmond. Back in Lower Stl'atl'imx Tribal Council to assist in achieving 1955 the Richmond Youth Soccer Association started goals and dealing with concerns. with just six teams. Since then, soccer in Richmond has I'm proud that in the budget update, this govern- grown rapidly. Thanks to the support of countless vol- ment has committed $100 million to a New Relation- unteers, Richmond soccer today has 168 boys, 100 girls ship fund that supports capacity-building and will and 100 adult teams. This coming weekend 113 boys assist first nations communities to be effective partners teams and 110 girls teams will be coming from all over in consultations regarding the use of land and re- the lower mainland to participate in the 29th annual sources. British Columbia will be an even better place Thanksgiving tournament. It will be a great weekend for all of our children to grow and thrive as a result of for sport in Richmond. our government's approach based on recognition, re- These men, women, girls and boys play soccer year spect and reconciliation. after year, developing their skills, working out and having fun with friends in a team environment. Over MENTAL ILLNESS AWARENESS the past 50 years over 25,000 children have come through the Richmond Youth Soccer Association. Some C. Wyse: I would ask my colleagues to join me in of the notable players include Randy Samuel, who acknowledging that this week is Mental Illness Aware- played for the Canadian national squad and the White- ness Week. Mental health touches all segments of the caps. Most recently Jason Jordan of the Vancouver population. I think that every one of us here has Whitecaps Football Club was named the United Soccer probably been touched at some point by an individual League's first-division most valuable player for the with a mental illness. 2005 season. Despite the fact that one in five Canadians is directly Three Richmond youth players under 14 will be affected by mental illness, the social stigma that our so- going to Florida in November with the Whitecaps ciety has yet to fully overcome prevents many from get- youth program to defend their North American youth ting the help they need. Fifty percent of the ten leading league championship: Connor Radil, Joseph Martin causes of disability are related to mental disorders. Men- and Tommy Cui. tal health conditions now contribute more to disability in Richmond Youth Soccer supports our government's Canada than any other single disease group, including great goal to lead the way in North America in healthy cancer, diabetes and cardiovascular disease. living and physical fitness. This is important because The theme of Mental Illness Awareness Week this the more people we get into a healthy lifestyle, the year is "Face mental illness." The Canadian Alliance on fewer health problems our government will have to Mental Illness and Mental Health and all of its member deal with that are caused by inactivity. Fewer health organizations, including organizations in B.C., are put- problems will mean happier people and less need for ting forward the faces of courageous Canadians who expensive health treatments. Certainly, Richmond have gone forward with their stories of mental illness Youth Soccer is a valuable institution in my commu- so that we can all see that they are just like you and me. nity. I would ask that all of my colleagues reach out to individuals and organizations in your community that PUBLIC TRANSIT are marking this week, and not just this week but every week, so we can promote greater understanding of just R. Fleming: I rise to speak today to make a state- how we are all impacted by mental illness. ment about the important role that public transit plays I would, in particular, ask my colleagues to also in Greater Victoria and in over 50 other B.C. communi- recognize that today is Depression Screening Day and ties. to raise public awareness about this so that people in Every day B.C. Transit provides mobility to a sig- your community can get the help they need. Public nificant section of our citizenry. Public transit also institutions like colleges, universities and organizations plays a tremendous role in the development of our in the community hold free screenings to build public economy and contributes to the health of our citizens. awareness and get people help. There is much more to Good transit systems enhance property values in be done to ensure that people with mental illness can commercial centres and assist in the revitalization of lead healthy and productive lives. downtown centres. In areas of heavy congestion, investment in public transit helps goods move faster, RICHMOND YOUTH SOCCER ASSOCIATION provides personal time savings for commuters and improves employers' access to labour. J. Yap: I rise today to talk about the greatest sport in Public transit also helps our economy and public the world and how it's doing in my community — that safety by reducing vehicle collisions. The rate of fatal

564 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 collisions per passenger kilometre is ¹⁄₂₀ that of car DAVID WALTON travel. Recently in Victoria a group of transit riders, supported by Mothers Against Drunk Driving and the S. Simpson: On October 2, I attended a celebration B.C. Restaurant and Foodservices Association, sup- of life for my friend David Walton, who passed away ported the introduction of late-night bus service on from cancer. After struggling with the disease for 26 weekends. The cost of the service is relatively small; years and having beaten it twice, David finally lost his the potential to save lives, immeasurable. battle on September 1 of this year. My community is unable to fund this initiative and It was an honour for me to attend David's celebra- has been unable to make up for the cutbacks to transit tion of life along with hundreds of others, including the service in the last four years. Today there are 100,000 member for Vancouver-Kensington and David's fewer hours of transit service on the road in my com- cousin, the Minister of Economic Development. munity. With fewer buses on the roads, service is David was born on April 5, 1959, in Squamish and worsened. I'm deeply disappointed that the 2005 raised in 100 Mile House. He graduated from Simon budget update has not shown any vision for communi- Fraser University and was the recipient of the Terry ties or displayed any interest in public transit in Victo- Fox Gold Medal award for courage in 1986, an award ria and the 50 other small and medium-sized commu- that is given to a person who has demonstrated those nities across B.C. personal qualities of courage in adversity and dedication to society which have been exemplified by Terry COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE IN B.C. Fox in his Marathon of Hope. David was a longtime political and community J. Nuraney: I want to share my observations at the activist, one of those people that we who sit in this UBCM convention, which I attended last week. I was place know are the backbone of the political process, an very impressed to hear comments from mayors and active New Democrat who volunteered in every capac- councillors from different jurisdictions in our province ity including many years as constituency president. He like Tumbler Ridge, Chetwynd, Hudson's Hope, Pentic- worked as executive assistant to the Attorney General ton and others. The common core was the excitement and as ministerial assistant to the Premier. David was they felt because of the economic activities taking place bright, committed and compassionate. His many in their municipalities. There was a marked sense of friends in the political world will miss his wisdom, confidence and optimism about the future of our prov- kindness and generosity. ince. His activism was much broader than simply parti- Apart from this infectious optimism, what I found san and electoral politics. It included his many years of most reassuring was the hum of cooperation among community work both as a volunteer and profession- the different levels of government. Remarks from our ally, including with the Pacific Community Resources Premier, the Prime Minister and other leaders reso- Society where he worked for families and youth in nated with the new way of doing business through need. cooperation and consultation. David has left behind many good friends and family When the Leader of the Opposition spoke about her who will miss him dearly. More than anything, he will resolve to work in the spirit of cooperation, I felt a be missed by his wife and soulmate, Anisa Kassam- sense of new hope for our province. In a democratic Walton. David was one of those people we are all proud society such as ours, it is expected for political parties to have known. He was committed to social justice, to to have differing points of view. However, when those his family and to his community, and he was an inspira- leaders with opposing political philosophies talk about tion in the manner in which he dealt with his illness with seeking common ground, it bodes well for the future of dignity and courage. I was privileged to have known our province. David Walton. I ask this House to pass on its most sin- [1425] cere condolences and best wishes to his friends, his fam- I would like to thank both the Premier and the ily and in particular to his wife Anisa. Leader of the Opposition for their efforts in pursuing a new way in cooperation and in adopting a road that is Oral Questions less travelled in order to seek what is best for British Columbia. GOVERNMENT ROLE [Applause.] IN TEACHERS LABOUR DISPUTE I consider it a privilege to be a part of this…. C. James: With parents and students now in limbo, Interjections. I'd like to ask the Deputy Premier if she will take any responsibility for increasing the level of confrontation Mr. Speaker: Order, please. in this dispute with teachers.

J. Nuraney: If I may, Mr. Speaker. I consider it a Hon. S. Bond: Well, that's an interesting question privilege to be a part of what I like to call a new way to coming from the Leader of the Opposition. This is ac- improve the lives of British Columbians and for the tually the side of the House that believed that educa- generations to follow. tion was so important that we said it was an essential

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 565 service, to make sure students stayed in school and in eve of what she has correctly described as a day classrooms across this province. fraught with uncertainty, that I'm a bit surprised at her question. We are at a point where we need to show Mr. Speaker: Leader of the Opposition has a sup- leadership. On this side of the House we are doing so. plemental. We are doing so with a piece of legislation that is before this House, which I understand there are differing C. James: Well, we can see where their essential views on. But we are all legislators. We are all lawmak- service has taken us now. It's taken us to a crisis, to the ers. brink of a crisis. Leadership demands a search for The leadership that the Leader of the Opposition common ground, trying to find solutions. That's what has to show is to make it clear to the people who she leadership is about. But this government has not counts on for political support that she does not sup- shown any leadership. port what would be unlawful and illegal activity. This [1430] is her opportunity to do so. Again I ask the Deputy Premier: do you think that it was a mistake for the Premier to brush off a request Interjections. that was made three months ago for the government to sit down with teachers and try and resolve this dis- Mr. Speaker: Members. pute? Hon. M. de Jong: And while we are committed to Hon. S. Bond: We have made it perfectly clear that working and leaving no stone unturned to find a reso- class size is an important issue to us. We have made lution to these complex matters, that is the question several opportunities available to have that discussion, that the Leader of the Opposition must answer and including for a number of years the education advisory make clear — that she, her party, will not support committee. We want to have that discussion. We think teachers or anyone else breaking the law. it's a meaningful place. This morning my colleague the Minister of Labour D. Thorne: This government has made it very clear met with members of the B.C. Federation of Labour that they believe the bargaining system in British Co- and the B.C. Teachers Federation. As a result of that lumbia is broken in this instance, and it's true. It needs discussion and a briefing that I've had with the Minis- to be fixed. But it is not going to be fixed in a climate of ter of Labour, we are going to create in the province a anger and confrontation, a climate that this govern- learning round table. I expect this afternoon to be con- ment laid the groundwork for. tacting parties — which include the B.C. Teachers Fed- Does the Deputy Premier understand how ripping eration, trustees, parents and also administrators — to up the teachers' contract in 2002 contributed to this come and participate in a significant forum. serious impasse? We understand that class sizes and situations for [1435] teachers are important. In fact, we are prepared to have that discussion. I invite the B.C. Teachers Federation to Hon. M. de Jong: It is broken. We have been join us at that table. through the history, and there are versions of that history. But the part that is irrefutable is that through five Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a rounds of negotiation, the parties have never arrived at further supplemental. a freely negotiated collective agreement. So we have begun the process of rebuilding or attempting to re- C. James: I understand that disputes like this are build that negotiating structure. complex and difficult. But it's been three and a half Earlier today I announced, as I said I would earlier years. There have been opportunities to resolve this this week, that Mr. Vince Ready has accepted the role dispute and to find a table before this. Why, once as the industrial inquiry commissioner to begin the again, does this government need to bring us to the process, to work with the parties, to get them to a state brink of a difficulty for parents and students in this and a stage armed with a process that we hope will province before they finally look at a solution? work better than the one we have now, where in a mat- Again, I'd like to raise another issue with the Dep- ter of months they can negotiate an agreement — a uty Premier. Will she at least accept that the Premier freely negotiated agreement — that is different from and his party used the election process to again inflame the last five insofar as it didn't involve governmental the situation and create more confrontation by using interference. In the meantime we want kids to be in the the education system as a political tool? classroom.

Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental.

Mr. Speaker: Order, members. D. Thorne: By the minister's own admission, the bill that brought us to this crisis is not needed. Leader- Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, I have to say, ship is also about admitting mistakes and learning through you to the Leader of the Opposition, on the from experience, but every interaction that this gov-

566 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 ernment has had with teachers has been confronta- J. Horgan: I want to tell the minister about setting tional. In 2004 this government even overturned a Su- examples. I want to tell the minister about an individ- preme Court ruling in favour of the teachers' position ual named Mark Neufeld. He's a teacher in our com- on learning conditions. munity. He's a constituent of mine. He's not an activist. Does the Deputy Premier even begin to realize how He's not a radical. He came to school on Wednesday using legislation to overturn the courts does nothing to morning, and he said to his cross-country team that help fix a broken bargaining system? he's been coaching for years: "I can't in good conscience continue to do this." He said to the basketball team that Hon. M. de Jong: Surely this member realizes the he coaches proudly: "I cannot continue to do this when trauma and uncertainty that accrues in the lives of the government that sits in this House disrespects and teachers, students and their parents as they drift fur- undervalues the work that I do." ther and further into escalating job action. There was a What did that man do? What did that individual choice, and we made it. We made it armed with a re- do? The example he set is that he started walking. He port from a fact-finder that many of the members op- walked ten kilometres from Claremont School to this posite have quoted from — some of them favourably, building to meet with the Premier. That's an example actually — which said there is absolutely no prospect that I would be proud to show my children. Not yours. of a settlement. We did so on the basis of 35 meetings that had taken place where the parties apparently Mr. Speaker: Has the member got a question? couldn't even agree on getting a cup of coffee. I said at the outset that no one is happy about the J. Horgan: My question is to the Minister of Labour. fact that we're here, but it's time to settle this and move I would rather have the kids in my house look to Mark on, to use the good services of Mr. Ready and construct Neufeld for leadership than Gordon Campbell. Where a negotiating framework that stands some prospect of is the Premier…? succeeding. Mr. Speaker: Member. Member. Listen, please. J. Horgan: This government is so concerned about Member, you know the rules. class size that they've increased it right across the province. We've had confrontation in this province for the J. Horgan: I apologize to the Premier for that comment. past four years, whether it be health care workers or My question is to the Minister of Labour. Mark whether it be teachers. Any organized group of indi- Neufeld walked to this place. He has been outside for viduals in this province has seen nothing but contempt 24 hours wanting to meet with the Premier so that the and ridicule from that side of the House. Premier will show leadership in this issue. The ques- We had an election campaign where the result mation is: where is the Premier to talk to this individual? terially altered what this world looked like, and we thought on this side of the House…. The public Hon. M. de Jong: First of all, I appreciate the pas- thought that the government had heard what the peo- sion and commitment that teachers like Mr. Neufeld ple had said — that they wanted balance, and they bring to their profession on a daily basis. That is why wanted support for people in communities. This gov- the Minister of Education actually did meet with him. ernment rejected that. Here we are at the brink of the There is no doubting that these are difficult, complex cliff as a result of this government's actions. and at times vexing issues that we have to deal with, as Will the Minister of Labour stand in his place and they have been over the better part of a decade and a agree to meet tonight with the B.C. Teachers Federa- half at least. But I am still awaiting a clear indication tion, tomorrow morning with the B.C. Teachers Federa- from the critic, from the government benches, about tion, and resolve this dispute? where he and his caucus stand. Do they stand for a society governed by the rule of law? Or do they stand Hon. M. de Jong: Well, it is a remarkable statement for the proposition that we have laws that you simply that the hon. member makes. In dismissing, as he ap- pick which ones you want to abide by and…? parently does, the over 130 freely negotiated collective agreements, I think he does a real disservice to the Interjections. working men and women who actually agreed of their own volition to those agreements. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Minister, just I've just had a meeting, and it was a candid and wait a second. Members. frank exchange. We certainly are prepared to continue Continue, minister. that discussion, but as I said to the people at that meeting, it is difficult to have that discussion when the very Hon. M. de Jong: I do detect a growing feeling of people we look to, to set an example for students are discomfort on the opposition benches, because it is a breaking the law. That's not on, and that makes taking difficult question to answer. Is it about abiding by the this discussion forward very, very difficult. rule of law or, when a friendly organization is in- [1440] volved, simply looking the other way? On this side of the House, we stand irrevocably beside the right of Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. students to be in the classroom getting an education.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 567

J. Kwan: Conflict and confrontation is the approach Interjection. that this government has chosen. The government ripped up collective agreements in 2002. This govern- Mr. Speaker: Member. ment stripped teachers of a self-governing body in terms of their ability to govern themselves in 2003. This Hon. S. Bond: We would like now, as I have just government overturned a ruling of the B.C. Supreme mentioned, to create a learning round table. We want Court to strip classroom support conditions from the to find a way to have that meaningful discussion. bargaining table in 2004. But let's make it perfectly clear. What we're really My question is to the Attorney General: is it one waiting for here is to talk about leadership. Let's see the law for the teachers or a different law for this govern- Leader of the Opposition stand with us today and say ment? Which is it? that this would be illegal and that we want you to [1445] stand beside us and keep students in classrooms.

Hon. S. Bond: We believe class size is so important ACCESS TO NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS that we enshrined it in legislation with caps and flexi- FOR INCOME ASSISTANCE RECIPIENTS bility for school districts. We've also said that while we believe class size is absolutely essential, and it is impor- C. Trevena: William Duboise is a resident of tant we have those discussions, teachers need to be at Campbell River who is waiting for a lung transplant. the heart of those discussions. Mr. Duboise receives a person-with-disabilities benefit But there is a role for parents and trustees and peo- and has applied to the Ministry of Employment and ple who are involved in the lives of children every day Income Assistance to provide him with a monthly nu- in our schools to be involved in the discussion about tritional supplement. The cost for these supplements is class size. That's why we're going to create a perma- $165 a month. His doctor says Mr. Duboise's life will be nent learning round table — to have those meaningful endangered without them. discussions to make sure that today we're saying to the The ministry has denied this request. The reason? B.C. Teachers Federation: come and sit and talk with The administrator disagrees with the doctor's assess- us. Help us determine the terms of reference. Help us ment. I would like to ask the Minister of Employment work together, but please, most importantly, let's keep and Income Assistance: why can administrators overrule our students in classrooms. doctors on what are potentially life-and-death cases?

J. Kwan: Let's just be clear. This Liberal government Hon. C. Richmond: I thank the member for her overruled a court ruling by legislation, using the legisla- question. I am not familiar with this situation, so if you tive hammer when it was convenient for them. They would please provide me with the information, I will change the law just like that, because it is politically would be glad to bring an answer back to you and to convenient for them. Then they want to ask questions, this House. and then they want to cast aspersions by pointing fingers and creating an escalating crisis today that will Mr. Speaker: Member, it was kind of taken on no- actually cause law-abiding citizens to engage in an ac- tice. Do you have a different question? tivity that they may not want to but are forced to do. I want to ask a question to the Deputy Premier: why is C. Trevena: I do, thank you very much. Thank you it so convenient for them to overturn a law when it suits for saying that. them, when instead they could have chosen an alternate Unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident. I know of course — a course that would actually bring people to- other cases. I would like to know whether, on principle, gether and ask the teachers, ask the educators, ask the bureaucrats get a bigger voice than doctors on certain cases. school trustees, ask the people who have an interest in [1450] education, in improving education, to come to the table to address the issue of class size and class composition? Why Hon. C. Richmond: I think the member is aware didn't they choose that alternative and instead chose to that I cannot talk about individual cases in this House, break the law by overruling it? and if she has other instances, I would like to hear about them. We evaluate every request for assistance Hon. S. Bond: First of all, let's make it clear. There on its own merits, and virtually no one is turned away has always been an avenue to have a discussion about when they're in a time of crisis. class sizes. The difference has been… GOVERNMENT SUPPORT Interjections. FOR SOCIAL HOUSING

Mr. Speaker: Members. D. Routley: Recent reports point to the reality that homelessness is growing in both urban and rural Hon. S. Bond: …that the union has suggested that communities. Thousands of British Columbians are the only place to talk about class size is at the bargain- slipping below the waves, but the Premier is planning ing table. We disagree. We want to now create…. to eliminate the provincial housing program by '07-'08,

568 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 a program that has created 7,800 units since its creation In addition to that, like I said, we've already given in 1994. 533 units of commitment in 12 housing developments My question is to the Minister for Housing. Will the across the province, including Vancouver, Nanaimo, minister explain to this House why such a successful Surrey, Victoria, Kelowna, New Westminster, Prince program is being cut and why plans to address the George, Terrace and Fort St. John. There's nobody in need for increased social housing have been put off for any community in the province who should ignore the another year? issues of homelessness, mental health and addictions. When we talk about homelessness in the prov- Hon. R. Coleman: That is not the case. We are not ince… cutting a social housing program. As a matter of fact, this government has done more for social housing in Mr. Speaker: Thank you, minister. four years than the previous government did in ten. Let's be aware of something. The opportunity ex- Hon. R. Coleman: …the first piece of leadership isted for the previous government from 1990 to 2001 to has got to come from here and that we tell communi- do something about the SAFER program to help sen- ties: "Don't be afraid to stand up and not be NIMBYs iors in British Columbia — ignored them completely and support projects in your communities so we can for ten years. We stepped up to the plate, and we have help the people at risk in your community." 7,700 more seniors eligible for support in the province [1455] just from our SAFER adjustments alone. The Premier's Task Force on Homelessness is al- GOVERNMENT SUPPORT ready announced and has committed $20.6 million in FOR LOW-INCOME SENIORS provincial funding for 533 units in 12 housing developments across the province for homelessness. We are R. Chouhan: Emelda Bain-Parten is a 78-year-old working on a provincial housing strategy that will be resident of Burnaby-Edmonds. Recently she was taken so exciting and so good for people on the ground that to hospital in an ambulance. Somewhere between the you'll see more and more people being assisted by this ambulance and the hospital, her dentures were re- government than any time in history. moved to insert tubes. Somehow her dentures were

lost. Instead of replacing her dentures, the government Interjections. bought her a blender.

To the Minister of Health: is this the way to treat Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. The B.C.'s seniors? member has a supplemental.

D. Routley: Yes. I think we're supposed to bring a Hon. G. Abbott: I appreciate the member raising new tenor to the House, not only comedy. the issue. It's the first I've heard of it. If he would like to Last week a fire broke out in an abandoned build- provide me with the details of it, we would be very ing in Duncan where a number of homeless people happy to see if we can assist. were living. Like many people on our streets, including I think one of the things we should not do, though those caught in the Duncan fire, the lack of housing is — although I know some members opposite are prone intimately linked to mental health and addiction issues. to it — is try to blame a great health system for unfor- In Vancouver alone, 750 people with mental illness are tunate events that sometimes occur in it. on the wait-list for supportive housing. It is estimated Clearly, there are thousands of people in our health that two-thirds of the homeless in Vancouver experi- care system who care deeply not only about the seniors ence drug addiction and mental health issues. Will the that they see. They care deeply about all the patients Minister for Housing commit to increasing the number that they see. Every day they make difficult, sometimes of supportive housing units for people with mental heart-wrenching decisions about health care, and I illnesses? support those people. I will not presume of any person who works in the health care system or, actually, any- Hon. R. Coleman: First of all, what happened in where in government that they operate with any bad Duncan was absolutely a tragedy. We are willing to intent. I am sure that something unfortunate has hap- work with that community to address the issues of pened here. homelessness in Duncan. Unfortunately, at the UBCM last week it was one of the communities that did not Mr. Speaker: Thank you, minister. come to see me about housing as an issue that they wanted to talk about in their community, although a Hon. G. Abbott: The member should not presume substantial number of communities did. We've com- that the system is against that person. mitted to those communities to find ways for innovative practices to go into smaller and medium-sized Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. communities for housing issues for them in the long term. That work is underway already, as a result of our R. Chouhan: Also, for the information of the Minis- discussions at UBCM. ter of Health, I do come from the health care industry. I

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 569 know how health care workers work there, how they her life, and later on she became the principal of a sen- take care of the elderly and the patients every day. ior secondary school. I have a sister-in-law, Jaginder Imelda is a low-income senior. She cannot afford Chouhan. She was also a teacher and became principal new dentures. Because she cannot eat solid food, she later on. She was appointed as director of education lost a significant amount of weight. In fact, she was so system. I have a sister-in-law who teaches in Burnaby, weak from her liquid diet that she is now down to 80 Toni Grewal. They all teach. They're all in this profes- pounds. My question is to the minister. What are you sion because they love teaching; they love students. doing to make sure that low-income seniors are getting Teaching is a very noble and respectful profession, the care that they need? but by introducing Bill 12, this government once again has shown a total disrespect for teachers and their Hon. G. Abbott: Again, I'll thank the…. rights. Yesterday we heard from the Minister of Educa- tion, and the Minister of Labour on Monday, that they Mr. Speaker: Minister, could you wait to be recog- took no pleasure from introducing Bill 12. Well, if that's nized. the case, if they're not happy, then do the simple thing: withdraw Bill 12. Utilize other options that are avail- Hon. G. Abbott: I'm sorry. I apologize. I was so able. Negotiate in good faith with the BCTF, but don't eager to respond to this question, I may have got ahead sit here and pretend that you have tried. We know you of myself. So I apologize for that, Mr. Speaker. have not. The issue, again, is an important one. If the member The government may say that there were 35 differ- would be so kind as to forward to me the details about ent meetings with the bargaining committee of the B.C. this particular lady's situation, I would be glad to see Teachers Federation. For the last 18 years I have done what we can do for her. lots of bargaining. I have done lots of collective bar- What I will not do is attempt to politicize the cir- gaining negotiations in the last 18 years with the health cumstances of an individual and try to draw conclu- care employers. I have taught hundreds of students in sions about a whole system, as regards that. We have the last 18 years how to negotiate a collective agree- done a lot of things. I'm tremendously proud of what ment. One can have hundreds of meetings, but if your this government has done for seniors. I'm tremen- bargainers don't have the mandate to negotiate a set- dously proud of the Independent Living B.C. program tlement, then obviously no number of meetings would that benefits thousands and thousands of seniors across produce the desired result. this province. I'm tremendously proud of the Fair Time and again teachers have asked the govern- Pharmacare program that ensures that frail elderly ment to meet students' needs. Teachers need adequate who need the support get it. resources. The teachers' message is very clear. When Finally — because I know we're running out of time the size of a class is so large, they cannot attend to all — I'm tremendously proud of the recent changes in the students. When students bring home the homework SAFER program which, as the Minister for Housing without proper class instructions, the parents are left pointed out, benefit thousands and thousands and with spending extra time with the children to complete thousands of seniors in British Columbia. their homework. God forbid if parents are not familiar with the subject. The student's education suffers even [End of question period.] further. I'm a parent. For many years I was the vice- Tabling Documents president of the parents advisory council at the Cari- boo Secondary School in Burnaby. I know how hard Hon. R. Coleman: I have the honour to present the the teachers work. What do they get in return? Longer annual report of the Forest Appeals Commission, 2004. hours, lesser resources and a total lack of respect from [1500] the government. [1505] Orders of the Day Teachers have rights like anybody else, and those rights must be respected. The government tries to claim Hon. M. de Jong: In this chamber, I call continued that it respects teachers, but how could that be when second reading debate on Bill 12 and in Committee A, their rights are trampled upon? Show them that you for the information of members, continued estimates truly value their work — not the platitudes. If we want debate on the Ministry of Community Services. our children to get the best education, if we are serious about the future of our children, then let the teachers Second Reading of Bills have the necessary tools. In 2002 government legislation stripped learning TEACHERS' COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT ACT and working conditions from the teachers' collective (continued) agreement and now refuses to deal with them. The government demands that teachers stay in the class- R. Chouhan: I rise to oppose Bill 12. Like many of rooms and continue to uphold the high standards. my colleagues, I, too, come from a family of teachers. I How can that be possible? Despite the deteriorating have a sister, Jaswan Chouhan, who was a teacher all working conditions, the teachers have done everything

570 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 to maintain the high standards, but they cannot keep is telling me how difficult it has become to teach and doing it forever. how concerned they are about the ability of students to In 2001 legislation was passed declaring B.C. teach- learn. All of the teachers want a negotiated settlement. ers an essential service. The government changed the The government should withdraw Bill 12 and man- definition of essential service at that time. The previous date the BCPSEA to negotiate with our educators in definition was: "Necessary or essential to prevent im- good faith. The government should start respecting the mediate and serious danger to the health, safety or free collective bargaining process. This government did welfare of the residents of British Columbia." But to enough damage to free collective bargaining in 2002 meet its political agenda, the government changed the when it introduced Bill 29. That was the bill which took definition to state: "The minister may direct the Labour away the rights of health care workers. Through Bill 29, Relations Board to designate as essential services those the government ripped up a truly negotiated collective facilities, productions and services that the board con- agreement between the health care workers and their siders necessary or essential to prevent immediate and employers. That agreement was accepted and ratified serious disruption to the provision of educational pro- by over 82 percent of the health care employers. But grams." this government did not care then, and it does not care No other province has this kind of broad definition. now. In fact, no other province considered teachers as essen- By doing what the Liberals are trying to achieve tial services. The ILO and the United Nations have through Bill 12, they may please their rich corporate found this legislation to be in violation of international friends, but they will not help any student — or parent, standards to which Canada is signatory. for that matter. Priorities of this government are Over the last four years this government has closed wrong. They can find millions for their rich corporate 113 schools and has laid off over 2,500 teachers. The friends, but they have no money for more textbooks, government tried to justify it by saying that the student special needs teachers, librarians and ESL teachers. enrolment was down, and therefore fewer schools and This government has millions for its rich corporate fewer teachers were needed. friends but no money for decent wages for workers. If Let's go over the facts. In my hometown, Burnaby, this government is really serious about helping stu- between the 2001 and 2002 school year and the 2003 dents, then it must withdraw Bill 12. and 2004 school year, student enrolment was reduced In 2002 the provincial government legislated a ma- by 1.9 percent. But in contrast, the counsellors were jor stripping of the teachers' collective agreement, re- reduced by 8.1 percent, ESL teachers by 17.6 percent, moving significant provisions that set limits for class special education teachers by 11.8 percent and teacher- sizes and established staffing ratios for the provision of librarians by 9.1 percent. Teachers were reduced by 6.1 specialist teachers. It made it illegal for teachers to bar- percent. These are the facts. This figure comes from the gain class size, class composition or staffing formulas Ministry of Education itself. in the future. Now the government is pretending to fix Mr. Speaker, you can see clearly what this govern- a broken bargaining process. The bargaining process is ment has done to the education system, but this gov- broken because Liberals broke it. ernment is saying that all that was done to enhance the [1515] public education system. The government should be The government has said it wants to make B.C. the ashamed of what it has done. The facts speak for them- best-educated, most literate jurisdiction on the conti- selves. Over the last few days the government mem- nent, but on the other hand, the government has re- bers have been falling all over each other to claim how duced the teacher-librarians. Between 2002 and 2004, much they value teachers, but the reality is different. according to the Minister of Education, teacher- [1510] librarian staffing declined by 25 percent. International Let's see how the teachers see this. Listen to what research has shown a consistent correlation between the teachers in Burnaby are saying. This is a letter from school libraries, subject learning and information liter- one of the teachers in Burnaby. It says: "Last year I had acy. How do all these cuts put the students first? If the 31 kids in my grade four class. It wasn't just hard; it Premier is really serious about making B.C. the best- was impossible to get around and help each child with educated and most literate jurisdiction, then he will their needs during lessons. I even had to set up a take- instruct his government to withdraw Bill 12 and return a-number system." to the teaching and learning conditions that existed in Another teacher: "More behaviour students are 2002, prior to the contract being stripped of those pro- incorporated into larger classes. Each student gets less visions by legislation. attention than they need. The students and I become What we need is leadership — leadership that frustrated. More exciting, hands-on lessons would be would truly enhance public education, not continue on appreciated, but lack of room, materials, resource assis- the path of confrontation. We need the government to tants — that's learning assistants — and librarians recognize that it had made a mistake in 2002, and now make it more difficult." is the time to rectify it by engaging in meaningful and Another science teacher tells us: "The lab space is good-faith bargaining — not through Bill 12. set up for 28 students, but now students are crowded Bill 12 is a recipe for disaster. It will not foster har- three to a bench. It's a safety issue." I have a lot more monious relationships between the teachers and the letters and statements from teachers. Each one of them school boards, between teachers and the students or

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 571 parents. Maybe that is what this government wants — tem, and do something about it. I sincerely ask and am to create a wedge between the teachers, students and hopeful that the government will withdraw Bill 12 and parents. The time has come for this government to stop engage itself in negotiations. being cynical and start treating teachers as professionals. Teachers are concerned about the learning abilities G. Coons: I rise, as well, to discuss and debate sec- of their students. That's why teachers talk about class ond reading of Bill 12. composition. Why do they do it? Let me read from This occasion is one that I'm not proud to be in- information that I received from a teacher on this issue volved with. We have just witnessed another blatant of class composition. attack against our teaching workforce and, I may add, It all goes back to the inclusion of students with special the day after we recognized World Teachers Day. This needs. Students with mild to severe disabilities were in- is a sad day for students, a sad day for parents and a tegrated into regular classrooms following a government devastating day for teachers all across this great prov- policy change 16 years ago. Almost immediately teachers ince. noted that they had to change their teaching if classes included students with severe intellectual or physical dis- We have the greatest education system in this prov- abilities or disruptive behaviour. The expectation that ince. We have the best education system in the world came with inclusion was that the teacher would teach ac- and the most dedicated group of stakeholders that cording to the individual education plan for the student we'll find anywhere. Our teachers, our valued teachers- with special needs. on-call, are the most hard-working, conscientious and That changed the dynamic of the teaching of the devoted group of professionals that you'll ever find. class. It became more like teaching several classes at the Their commitment to curricular and extracurricular same time, but trying to keep things going in one direc- activities is renowned throughout the province and tion at the same time. That's a tougher job. It means more preparation, more time spent in meetings with specialists throughout Canada. and parents, time required to plan with the special edu- Teachers work with and educationally challenge cation assistant if you're lucky enough to get one. But be- our most valuable resource, our children. Parents put yond that is the increased complexity of meeting the their trust and their faith in educators to shape and needs of an increasingly diverse group of students. mould their children as they embark on a life-long That's why teachers talk so often about class com- journey of learning. Trustees put their lives on the line position as their biggest challenge. They support inclu- to strive for the best education system for their respec- sion if they have the support to make it work. tive districts. I thank and I compliment all trustees In the extensive tearing-up of the teachers' collec- throughout the province for this difficult task. tive agreement in 2002, not only were upper limits on Parent advisory committees realize the importance class size removed, but the class composition clauses of a well-rounded school that has the necessary fund- were also eliminated. That opened the door for much ing to make the school the best it can be. I thank all more difficult situations for both teachers and stu- parents for their dedication to this end. Students dents. Students with special needs had less support. throughout the province throw their hearts and souls At the same time, attention to the other students in into their own learning curve, whatever that may look the class was reduced. That's what teachers faced like. They come in all different sizes and shapes, so when they had to deal with more special needs with much alike yet so different and unique. less additional support. Eliminating the contract pro- One thing that all these stakeholders expect is that visions had a negative impact on the teaching and the government of the day will adequately fund our learning conditions. education system and work with our teaching force, [1520] not against them, so we can continue to improve edu- This government is responsible for breaking the cation for our students. This government has let down system. The government has created unnecessary fear parents, students and teachers. This is a sad day for all in the public's mind that the system is so unworkable those concerned about quality education. that we have to bring in the law. But the public is not There was an opportunity for progress in this dis- fooled. People understand who's responsible for that. pute, but this government chose confrontation and the British Columbians expect this government to show option that will not effect any change in working con- leadership, to come forward with a meaningful solu- ditions in the classrooms. That is shameful. This gov- tion, not confrontation. ernment could have chosen the path to discuss learning It's about time this government extended a hand of conditions but decided deliberately, in a seemingly friendship to the teachers, to our educators, to show preconceived plot, to go straight ahead in another them that they really are concerned about the students forced settlement. It's yet another imposition, an impo- and the parents. Sit down with those teachers and their sition that will only create conflict and chaos in our organization, the B.C. Teachers Federation, and negoti- education. ate a collective agreement in good faith. Stop playing [1525] these games. So why are we here today? The symbol of this gov- What we need is a meaningful gesture on the part ernment, Bill 12. The inability of the government…. It's of the government, not platitudes. The time has come a symbol of this government's incompetence to work for the government to show leadership, for the Premier with all of the stakeholders involved in our system and to stand up for education, for the public education sys- to bargain in good faith for an agreement that works

572 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 for British Columbians — one that would enhance and House and let our Premier know that it's not school better learning conditions for students, one based on boards to blame; it is this government and how they free collective bargaining where both sides sit down are defunding our education system. and discuss the issues to create an education system This downloading resulted in 2,600 teachers laid that works for students and for teachers, one that re- off, where only 700 of them can be attributed to the duces confrontation and is based on listening and re- infamous declining enrolment. And 113 schools shut spect. This government had the opportunity to do this, down in communities all over the province, mostly in and they blew it. rural communities. The ILO indicated to this govern- Teaching is a proud profession, and I'm so pleased ment that contract imposition, again, violates basic to have so many educators in the gallery today. It's a human rights and that "a unilateral action by authori- proud profession, where educators can positively in- ties cannot but introduce uncertainty in labour rela- fluence the lives and learning of their students, watch- tions, which in the long term can only be prejudicial." ing children gain that confidence, grow in their skills. [1530] Seeing the growth, the maturing into young adults, is What do we see today, 3½ years later? We see that something that makes it all worthwhile. uncertainty in this province, and this government is to I know that feeling. I've been a proud member of blame. The government was warned, and they ignored the British Columbia Teachers Federation for 27 years. that warning. It did not stop there. Bill 28 removed That is one of the many, many reasons that I'm in these provisions from negotiated contracts that limited class chambers today. I not only witnessed a government sizes, guaranteed supports for students with special that treated teachers without dignity and respect; I needs and set standards of service from trained special- experienced a government that intimidated, chastised ist teachers. In other words, this government ripped up and bullied teachers at every opportunity. contracts that dealt with student learning conditions. As we all know, we're all taught to challenge and The results? The results were devastating to students confront those who bully. How did we get here? and to teachers. The impact on first nations students Through this government's draconian ideology that we and on aboriginal programs and services throughout need to manipulate and control working people. In this province was severe: programs axed, first nations August 2001 Bill 18 was enacted. This declared educa- support workers laid off as school districts tried to tion an essential service, which normally is reserved for meet the government's bottom line. where the life, safety or health of the population is at risk, as in hospital, police or fire services. [H. Bloy in the chair.] But don't misunderstand me. Education is very, very important, but it is definitely not an essential ser- We certainly do need a new relationship in this prov- vice. B.C. is one of the only jurisdictions, if not the only ince. Class sizes ballooned as the Liberals boasted that jurisdiction, in the world where education is essential, class size was enshrined in their legislation. I'll tell you thus eliminating a key component of free collective what was enshrined: class sizes of 22 for kindergarten and bargaining: the right to strike. 20 for grades one to three. It sounds reasonable, but there This violation of fundamental rights, which are was no consideration, no regard for class composition and respected in democracies worldwide, was chastised by the number of children in those classes with special needs. the International Labour Organization, which stated For grades four to 12 the enshrined class size wasn't a that this Liberal government should abide by interna- class size; it was a district average of 30 students. So a tional law. The ILO is a United Nations agency that class with 22 students in one portion of the district could sets international standards for labour relations, and be countered with a class of 38 in another — as long as the Canada is a signatory to that. The ILO is not a union- average was 30. And again, no regard for class composi- run organization. It's jointly run by representatives of tion. Special needs support was drastically slashed as this government, business and labour, and promotes inter- contractual language gleefully ended up on the Liberals' nationally recognized human and labour rights. The cutting floor. There was a 28-percent reduction, with 740 ILO condemned this Liberal draconian legislation and fewer special education support positions over the last recommended this bill be repealed. few years, and that's wrong. That's wrong. On January 27, 2002, Bills 27 and 28 were enacted. Also cut were trained special education teachers by These, once again, were condemned by the ILO. These 17½ percent and teacher-librarians by 23 percent. We saw had devastating effects in schools, in classrooms them in the galleries the other day. English-as-a-second- throughout the province. Bill 27 imposed a contract on language teachers were cut by 20 percent. And how did teachers with a raise of 2.5 over each of three years, but our Premier react to this tremendous blot on Canada's this government refused to fund the forced deal, result- reputation where he and his Liberal gang violated fun- ing in millions and millions of dollars that were damental rights? He felt "no pressure whatsoever" to downloaded onto school districts. bring our province into compliance with an international Recently on CKNW our Premier blamed local convention to which we are all a signatory. school boards for the ballooning class sizes, thus dis- Liberal government officials characterized the accu- avowing any responsibility. That's shameful. This week sations as frivolous. Teachers in this province, workers I had a local trustee from school district 52 contact me in this province, all those who believe in fundamental and demand that I bring this to the attention of the rights: we do not find ripping up contracts, forcing an

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 573 end to legal job action and gutting positions that up- I have one last one, a woman I know. She starts off: hold quality of education to be frivolous in the least — I'm the teacher that tries to remember the routines, the not at all. names, the students' needs and behaviours. I'm the I've seen the changes. I've seen the frustrations. I've teacher who gets the least respect. I am the lowly teacher shared the stories with these teachers, with those dedi- on call. Last year I was amazed at the number of times I would be asked to conduct a lesson and students had to cated teachers on call, the parents, the administrators, share textbooks. I go into a classroom with 26 students, the support staff in our schools. More importantly, I've and seven are designated. I try to work with them, but seen it on the faces of our kids. It's not going to get any it's very difficult. I do my best. better with the introduction of Bill 12. It will only cre- Over the years since I've got my certification, which ate more problems. was 1999, I have not even gotten a toehold in the senior- Now I was going to talk more about my experience ity list, and I'm thinking of changing jobs. I'm looking for in the school system and the exhilaration I feel working a full-time job. I've just applied for a job as an office man- with kids. I was going to share some of my experiences ager. If I can get $16 an hour, then I will be able to make of teaching at Kaien Island Alternate School in Prince more money than in my present job combined with EI. I will — after six years of education and five years of sub- Rupert, where I was the head teacher for five years and stitute teaching — finally, finally have some money in worked there for six years, but that was one of the my pocket and a job. schools in our district that was shut down. That closed These stories are the stories that are occurring in all due to lack of provincial funding, sending the most the classrooms throughout the province. These are not vulnerable of our students to fend for themselves in a the stories we want to be telling; these are the stories system that cannot meet their needs. that must be told. This government, the members on I don't think I'm going to tell my story just yet. I've the opposite side, had the opportunity to listen, to see been cut off before, and I don't want to be cut off, so I for themselves and find out what was really happening might come back to me, but this is not about me. This is in our schools. They chose, as we've mentioned…. As more about teachers that have contacted me, and I'd they've mentioned, they made a decision. They chose like to share a few of them from my own riding and my not to listen; they chose not to find out. constituency. I have a primary teacher, 20 years' ex- They had the opportunity to work with the recom- perience: "More students, more students with special mendation of the fact-finder. They chose not to do that. needs. I no longer meet the needs of either the regular They had the opportunity to engage with teachers and or special students. Currently there's a class of 21 in a all education stakeholders in an effective and meaning- K-one-two, a kindergarten-one-two class with 21 stu- ful dialogue regarding the critical issue of class size dents and five IEPs. Bottom line: too many. Everyone is and composition, and they chose not to do that. This impacted negatively. I long for the good old days when government has made many choices, like the choice to we had class size composition." give huge tax cuts to corporations instead of putting it Another teacher, all grades: "Classes overloaded into programs that support children. I believe these are with special needs students." Another teacher, a secon- the wrong choices, and this government must accept dary teacher, 15 years' experience: "Class size and the blame. composition limit the effectiveness of my teaching practices. Some get left behind, and others are not chal- Bill 12 solves nothing. It will not get things better. lenged enough. I look at too many kids. Composition The hon. members on the other side had a real oppor- horrendous." tunity to avoid conflict, to treat teachers with dignity [1535] and respect, to show balance, to sit down and work on Here's an intermediate teacher in Prince Rupert, 25 solutions. They chose confrontation and disrespect. years' experience. They have "seven students with spe- This is a sad day for quality education in our province. cial needs: two in wheelchairs, one vision-impaired, one Just one note. As draconian governments come and hearing-impaired, one physically handicapped with go, I know the resolve of great organizations through- cerebral palsy, one with a behavioral learning problem, out this province working together — organizations one learning disabled, one student with learning dis- that respect contracts, that respect workers, that respect abled pending. This is unfair to the children. They won't free collective bargaining — and I know that these or- get another crack at grade six when the government ganizations will still be here advocating long and hard finally decides to fund education properly. for justice long after this Liberal government is just a I have a teacher from Haida Gwaii who is teaching faded memory. That's what's going to happen. in a kindergarten-one-two-three class, a four-split class [1540] with 19 students: "The age and ability range is huge. I pay tribute to all the workers in this province who The groups are huge. I'm burning out." have come under the wrath of this current government. Another intermediate teacher on Haida Gwaii: I fear the battle has just begun. I hope common sense "Students are suffering. So are teachers. Four grades in will prevail. I plead with my colleagues on the other a classroom are too many. I'm trying to conduct a cir- side: sit down, negotiate — not only with teachers but cus rather than a learning environment. When we with all workers in this province. know this is what works, it seems criminal that we're I'd like to take this opportunity to comment, as not able to provide learning conditions and class com- we've heard before, on a local Victoria teacher from position." Claremont Secondary School, Mark Neufeld, who I

574 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 talked to this morning with his spouse and his young had kids, and I started to integrate them. They were child. I went out there as he was just seeing his wife just normal kids, but they couldn't handle it in a regu- and child for the first time, after he spent overnight, lar classroom. I started to say: "Well, maybe they can be after walking ten miles to get here. He is camping out- in the shop class or the PE class," or whatever, and then side there because he has to do something. That's why all of a sudden they were all farmed out — integrated we have 33 members on this side up here talking about into classrooms — and I nearly did myself out of a job, Bill 12, talking about how, hopefully, it will get re- except they kept sending more in. pealed. Hopefully, this government will come to their [1545] senses, because we have to do something about that for As we developed through the years, we had more the education system in this province. and more kids being integrated into the school system, Mr. Neufeld tried to get a meeting with the Premier and teachers accepted that. We negotiated in those but to no avail. The Minister of Education did have a times, in those days, across the province with our meeting with him, did chat with him, but he fears his school districts. We sat across the table and said: "This message will not be heard. So I will relate his message is what's good for education. This is what's good for on the public record to the hon. members on the other students." We negotiated language that dealt with class side and to all British Columbians out there listening. size and class composition. His message is: We said, "If you have a class of 27 to 28 kids, then If you had a good public school teacher, if that teacher three students with special needs would be appropri- meant something to you, if you had a coach who meant ate," and we all agreed, because it worked, because we something to you, do the right thing. Honour that we could take the time and the energy. When you have 30 need class size and composition appropriate to meet the kids in the classroom — and it's an hour class, if you're needs of students. We want a better public education sys- teaching at a secondary school — you do whatever you tem, not to make it worse. As teachers, we try to tell our kids to do the right thing. We try to get them to believe need to do in the front, do a bit of a lesson, and you that government functions properly, that we live in a may have 20 or 30 minutes left to deal with 30 kids. democracy. Let's have British Columbia show some lead- When I was back at Charles Hays Secondary School ership. last year teaching math 9, I had 31 kids in school and That was his message, and I totally agree with that. about seven, eight or nine of them really needed extra I'm optimistic about the future, but the future de- help and support. How much time did I have? I had pends on what happens right here in this Legislature. I maybe less than a minute with each student. Now, if I was pleased yesterday during question period when was distracted because somebody needed a couple of the Minister of Forests and Range, when questioned more minutes, then there was a handful of students about softwood — and I would love to quote this from that did not get any of my attention that day, and that's the Minister of Forests and Range — indicated: "We're shameful. That cuts right to the heart when you know going to be the ones that will negotiate in good faith. that there are students in there that want the help, that We're going to be the ones that will be honourable and need the support, but you just can't get to them be- accept the deals we make, and we'll stand up to and cause you've got a handful of others that are taking up honour the deals we make" — and here's the clincher the time. They should be in classrooms where their — "with the Americans in the future." needs are being met. Now, I am hopeful that not only will this govern- I went to Prince Rupert because I applied to be an ment negotiate in good faith with the Americans but alternate ed teacher, and after six or seven years I did that they bring it back home and they negotiate in good make it. I made it to the top. I was at the Kaien Island faith right here in British Columbia. I'm sure when the Alternate School, and I was working with the best kids message gets out — that that's their stance as far as in the world, kids that don't fit into a normal situation negotiating — that Liberal caucus members will reflect in a school. Unfortunately — or in my case, fortunately on these words and bring some honour back to our — Prince Rupert has a high population of first nations province and begin to negotiate in good faith, not only students. My riding has the highest first nations popu- with teachers across the province but with all British lation in the province. I respect their culture. It's so Columbians. diverse, unique. I had a lot of good times working with Now I can get back to me. When I first started students at the alternate school. It was shut down, as I teaching, I taught in the special class in 1977 in Prince mentioned. Students were distributed into the other Rupert. I had a class of ten kids. My job description high schools. One high school didn't have much sup- was: do whatever you want, but we don't want to see port, and the other school created an afternoon alter- these kids. I was a first-year teacher, and I was in that nate class that these kids went into. school, actually, longer than I'm spending in this Legis- Lo and behold, when I came back to teaching after lature. I come to this Legislature about seven in the my stint as the president of the teachers union in Prince morning and leave about 8:30 or nine at night. I was Rupert, I went back to this school, and I was assigned leaving my school at 11 o'clock at night. My closest and this alternate school position. I was just so pleased, best friends were the custodians. because I was back at the top again, and that's where I I travelled around from classroom to classroom, want to be. But I went in there, and I had poor kids that finding out what teaching was about. I look back on didn't have the support, didn't have the services. They those days with a lot of honour and dignity, because I had me. I think back to that, and it was one of the most

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 575 challenging years of my 27 in the teaching profession. I that this Legislature looks at Bill 12, decides to pull it, had to do something about that. I worked long and and works with teachers and works with stakeholders hard to create a program, but it was so frustrating try- throughout the province. ing to fit these kids, these round pegs, into square holes, because the facility we had and operated for D. Cubberley: I just want to thank the member for many, many years was shut down due to de-funding of North Coast for sharing his comments with us and those education. from the heart. I think all of us have had the experience of I think back to James. James was the most challeng- teachers who have made a difference in our lives. Just ing student I've ever taught, and I loved him dearly. listening to the member's comments about his own ex- He would always come in, and the sign on him was perience, it sounds to me as though he did make a differ- don't argue with him, because he'll always win. We'd ence in a lot of lives. Having been one of those kids who go out in the hallway, and we'd argue. He always won, was round when the holes were square, I benefited from a but that was fine. I'm in lots of arguments, and I let couple of teachers who I guess recognized some innate some people win. capability of some kind that didn't necessarily show up on But one day we had a fire in Prince Rupert. We lost the standard grid and made some extra effort in my life. It an apartment building, and 50 people lost their homes. has made a difference. I was in the Salvation Army helping out at a building I'm pleased today to have an opportunity to re- where stacks and stacks of clothes and furniture came spond to Bill 12, which was introduced by the Minister in. I was volunteering my time, and the press came by. of Labour and Citizens' Services earlier this week. It's a I wasn't even considering putting my name into the hat pretty bland name, and it belies the fact that this act to get into politics. terminates bargaining. Not only does it not settle the [1550] dispute, as the explanatory note claims, but it risks I was in that Salvation Army helping out and work- prolonging and inflaming it further. ing out. The press came along with the cameras. They Bill 12 is a short and deceptively simple act that took a picture, and I said something. I don't know what arbitrarily extends a collective agreement that had long I said. But the next day, James came running up to me expired. In effect, it summarily puts an end to bargain- and said: "Hey, Mr. Buttons. How are you doing?" On ing between the BCTF and the government's agents, the screen they had my name as Gary Buttons. I can the British Columbia Public School Employers Associa- say that. It's not my real name. Okay. tion. This act can only be seen as an insult to the collec- He laughed. Not only that, but he found out later tive bargaining process. It will, I think with justifica- on in months to come that I was putting my name into tion, be seen as further injury to the teachers of British the ring. He was pretty astute, and he was saying: "So Columbia who were already aggrieved by govern- you're running for the NDP. I can handle that. If you ment's reckless actions in 2002. need any help, let me know." [1555] This was a student who came from five or six other I know that the Minister of Labour took pains to school districts, passed around from classroom to class- characterize the collective bargaining process as non- room. Nobody could deal with him; nobody could existent, dysfunctional, broken — whatever other term handle the situations. Nobody had a designation for could be conscripted to legitimatize the government's him. He needed serious help, and he was not getting it actions — I think coming at a point which the govern- in the school system. I felt so frustrated. ment had long planned to get to, at least judging by the On our TV system up north they do a week in re- absence of efforts to make positive overtures to teach- view. About five days later they replayed me again, ers over the course of a year and a half. I'm not just and he comes in Monday and says: "Mr. Buttons, you referring to the orchestrated nature of the public ad were on there again last night." I think back to that. campaign that the government unleashed, coincident When I go back home tomorrow, I'm going to drop with its introduction of the legislation to suspend bar- into…. Well, I guess the schools will be under different gaining, a step it took without bothering, I think, to operations tomorrow. But I'm going to give James a call reflect deeply or publicly on the content or the implica- and just let him know that I'm thinking about him, tions of Mr. Connolly's fact-finding report, not just his because that's what teachers do. They try; they try to conclusions, and a step it took without accepting re- make a difference. sponsibility for engineering the impasse that Mr. Con- Over my 27 years I feel that for at least 22 or 23 nolly's report merely confirmed, and which I think years, I have been making a difference. There are many should have led to sober reflection rather than draco- teachers I work with right now who I actually taught nian action. — lo and behold — and that's difficult. But I'm proud I want to highlight a couple of points touching on to say that teachers do make a difference. the way in which government as an employer created, through its actions or its inactions, the kind of stale- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] mate that was used in the end to justify the introduction of the act. But it's frustrating. It's frustrating when we look at First was the very clear statement that due to the what's happened in this Legislature over the last four depth of feeling on the part of teachers about the im- years, what's happened with teachers' contracts. I hope portance of discussions and negotiations, not just about

576 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 wages but about working and learning conditions, that were jumping to a strike vote the day after the election government needed to engage in a dialogue. A quote was over, something the Premier himself launched — directly from Mr. Connolly: "As professionals deliver- isn't a productive accomplishment in management ing the educational services to children in British Co- terms. In industrial relations, if you care about out- lumbia, teachers are seeking an opportunity to articu- comes, it's exactly what you're trying to avoid doing. late their thoughts and knowledge on the learning You don't demonize the other guys. You don't provoke conditions for students." them. You know that your employees are your biggest Clearly, teachers wished and needed and deserved asset and that they identify their work as deserving of to be able to discuss working and learning conditions dignity, however humble the work they do is. And with their employer. Just as clearly, the employer's they rightly expect you to demonstrate that you respect representatives had firm instructions not to consider their commitment and their work. The relationship in issues or proposals with respect to class size, class collective bargaining can never be about sticking it to composition or access to appropriate supports such as your employees or provoking them into doing things teacher assistance. These had been deemed to lie out- based on reactions — not if you're acting as stewards of side the collective bargaining process. As difficult as the enterprise. that is to understand or make sense of, they were But confrontation with teachers and provocation deemed to lie outside the collective bargaining process. around their issues and the bargaining relationship is Of course, there is no mechanism, currently, for something that this government is really passionate teachers to discuss these matters outside of bargaining, about — indeed, I believe, relishes. Never mind the nor any history of that occurring with this government, words; look at the actions. The actions speak clearly. nor were there any overtures during negotiations as to The second thing the government, had it cared how that could actually work. It's not clear why teach- about outcomes in students' lives, would have reflected ers should believe that even if it could occur, it could more deeply upon in Connolly's report is this state- translate into meaningful changes if the results of those ment: "The lack of dialogue on compensation led to a discussions weren't set down in some form that's actu- public media debate about the cost of proposals that ally binding on school districts — like a collective only increased the tension and conflict between the agreement — as they had been in the past. parties and did not further understanding, clarity or In this regard, the government is certainly being opportunity to find agreement within a collective bar- true to form, and that's not a compliment. Indeed, I gaining process." Now, to my ear, that's an indictment. think it was this government's paramount goal to sever That lands the responsibility right at government's not just the contract language the BCTF had negotiated door, because it was this government that called in the around class size from the existing agreement in 2002, play that led to refusal to discuss compensation, and but to sever any linkage between working and learning that at the same time chose to ramp up public emotion conditions and the process of negotiations. It took uni- by circulating wild numbers that had nothing to do lateral action in 2002 to strip the collective agreement, with tabled proposals — wild speculation used to whip while it hoped to obscure what it was doing or soften it up public emotions and misrepresent intentions. by mandating a 7.5 percent increase to wages, which in When a government who claims not to be involved turn, it substantially downloaded on to school districts, at the table, despite defining what can and can't be thereby ultimately worsening the very conditions the discussed and calling in the plays, interferes in difficult teachers' agreement had sought to protect against. Nice negotiations by ramping up emotions, it can only make job, folks. It's a really cute trick, if you don't consider matters worse. But that's apparently just what the gov- the bitter harvest that we're reaping today as an out- ernment intended to do. Government's responsibility come of the seeds that were sowed by those acts in for damaging the relationship isn't just a matter of gut- 2002. ting contract language nor just the injury of handing The lack of respect shown teachers by the arbitrary the employer the right to degrade working conditions removal of limits placed within their collective agree- by taking learning condition guarantees away from ment began a poisoning of relations that continued teachers. No, to my mind, it's the gross mismanage- during an entire term of office and carried right on ment of the system that flowed from governments do- through the last election campaign. We sometimes hear ing all of that while off-loading costs onto school dis- members opposite say — and I find without a great tricts with capped budgets. deal of conviction — that they respect teachers and the The cost of the MSP premium hikes passed through work they do. But, you know, as our elementary school to school districts. Costs for teacher increases that teachers taught us, in the end actions do speak louder weren't funded put into the legislated contract and than words — far louder. downloaded onto school districts. Costs of inflation [1600] that every large program has on a year-over-year basis. I heard the Minister of Education say this after- Anybody who's worked in government at any level noon, for example, "We believe it's so important," — knows that there are increasing expenses due to infla- referring to class size limits — "that we enshrine them tion on an annual basis. You cannot deliver the same in legislation." We'll come back to that. program every year with the same amount of money. Engendering a climate of disrespect — the shame- You're reducing the program you're delivering if you ful attempt to mislead parents into fearing that teachers aren't covering off inflation. But this government told

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 577 the school districts: "Be quiet. Eat those costs. Just go multiple students with learning disabilities — which is find efficiencies. Go away. Just do it." what are showing up in class composition and/or Well, economies in school services can rapidly trig- other challenges, special learning prescriptions — to ger deteriorating conditions, and now the chickens involve another teacher outside the classroom in pro- have come home to roost. Thrusting those costs down viding them with specialized tutoring. That's the way onto the system, combined with the loss of class size we get efficiency in the classroom and the way we con- controls, produces negative effects in schools across tinue to allow teachers to have very high-level out- British Columbia. comes with high throughput. We take some of the We often hear members opposite offer declining problems out of the learning situation and we give enrolment as the rationale for the reduction of 2,500 them special attention, and we move those people back positions across B.C., and the closure of 113 schools in again. Surprise, surprise. certainly played a role. There were jobs that went with What we hear anecdotally from teachers, and I'm the closure of schools, as did contracting funding in the going to read a little bit of it later, about their individ- decision to close schools. But the real driver was the ual classrooms is actually reflected in the numbers new costs, the costs that resulted in higher class sizes provided by their own school district and runs against and more demanding class composition. the grain of what the government is saying. Now that, [1605] to my mind, is something government should be inter- That's just a phrase that we say in here: "More de- ested in talking to teachers and administrators about. manding class composition." On the ground, more de- That's something that does belong in collective bar- manding class composition is the challenge that teach- gaining as a discussion, because it represents a grow- ers face — and fewer supportive resources to deal with ing problem in the workplace that has impacts on mo- those needing special attention. You know, when I rale, on productivity and on learning outcomes. But it went to school, there wasn't a phrase "people needing isn't a discussion in collective bargaining, and that is special attention." It didn't exist. As we will see, it is because one assumes that government would find it now a substantial portion of what teachers deal with in inconvenient to have to acknowledge the problem it's the classroom. actually created. That was the reason we lost nearly a quarter of our [1610] school librarians and why the remainder of our school Damage was done by the government's actions, and librarians now spend more time doing clerical library the message was clear. The message to teachers was work and less time teaching students how to use librar- that working and learning conditions don't matter. ies — because school districts reluctantly cut librarians How you feel about it doesn't matter. The message, as and support workers in order to shave budgets to one teacher put it to me, is that teachers are not profes- cover downloaded costs. In other words, if you think sionals worthy of respect, but rather worker drones about, Mr. Speaker, the net impact of government's there to do as they're told — to shut up and get on with decisions was to force the system to begin to cannibal- the job, irrespective of the working conditions and the ize itself, and that's what it's been doing just in order to learning outcomes, treated like drones, not valued for survive and to continue to try to deliver an increasingly their skills and their commitment nor for their volun- difficult program to students. It's a rather ugly image, teering countless hours in unpaid activities, some of but it's apt. That's what's come from government ac- which are integral to the job of teaching, like marking, tion, and that's the context for teacher bargaining — and that contribute to the overall improvement and bargaining the government approached in bad faith enrichment of children's lives. with no intention of allowing any discussion of learning conditions. I know that it's difficult for members opposite to I have two school districts in my constituency. In hear some of this, and I know that when they respond the Saanich school district the teachers wondered about to what we've been saying, they're going to return to the government's arguments on declining enrolments some of the hollow generalities and self-congratulatory as the rationale for fewer teachers — because that's rhetoric of progress that they like to serve up for public what we hear in the chamber — so they used ministry consumption. figures to determine that their enrolments between But, you know, this is about real teachers working 2000-2001 and 2004-2005 were down by a total of 41 in real classrooms, trying day in and day out to opti- students. Now, it's true they have some long-distance mize outcomes for our children. How they feel about students and there may have been more decline in stu- their work and the workplace is an important factor in dents in school and more students in distance educa- the quality of those outcomes. It's time we all grasped tion, but the total decline in students was 41. Then they that, if we want to be the stewards of public education, checked on how many fewer people were working in which is what our job is. the system, and you know what they found? They You know, teachers tell it a lot better than a politi- found they'd lost 33.2 FTEs. They lost 41 students, and cian standing at a microphone can, in their own words they lost 33.2 FTEs. and reflecting their own experience. I think it's a good Some of those, but certainly far fewer than half, thing for all members to get a sense of what it feels like were due to school closures, but the rest were positions to be in their shoes. So I'll indulge myself with a little like teaching assistants, which allowed teachers with bit of what I've been hearing from teachers.

578 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005

These are all from people in my own constituency. passion and credibility of the professionals you charge This note says: with teaching them? This is what my classes look like when I arrived this Sep- I've had some direct experience in collective bar- tember. I was teaching four-four blocks, no prep, four dif- gaining. I can tell you that when you as an employer let ferent classes; every lunch taken up with extracurricular things get to this level and your own people begin to meetings or with opening my classroom door to provide feel that you don't respect them and that you don't care a safe place for students to eat lunch. about the challenges they face, and you put your ener- I paused when I read that, because the implications of gies into denying there's a problem or provoking them that are disturbing. or mischaracterizing their motivations to parents, In my four classes with approximately 100 students, I you're hooped. You know you couldn't run a viable had 26 students with IEPs. An IEP is an individual education plan — in other words, 26 kids with special learn- business that way. I know members opposite are close ing needs. As my husband heads up to bed at a reason- to business. You know you couldn't run a viable busi- able hour every night, and I sit up marking and prepping ness that way. You wouldn't. You'd be out of business. for the next day because there's no time at work, he says: I think you know deep down that you can't run public "Come to bed. You don't get paid enough to work 14 education that way either. hours a day." But I can't do that obviously. The kids and If you actually consciously set out to poison the their parents demand marks. Extracurricular activities well, it's almost impossible to unpoison it later. There need to be provided. There's supervision, and special are many examples of that in industrial relations. I learning needs kids have to be given extra attention. would hope that this government would come to its That's just one. There are many, many of these. senses and redirect itself to begin acting like a steward To give you another example, here's a teacher who of public education, the steward it was elected to be, in writes from my school district: "I had a grade 9 linear a province with the goal of being the most literate and class of English and social studies. I had 11 identified best-educated in whatever hemisphere it is. students and no TA support. I had a boy with Tourette's, one with Asperger's syndrome, two with I fancy myself to be a realist. I know that bargaining ADD, one with ADHD, one working at a grade one relationships are difficult and that the one with teach- level, and others had various more minor learning dis- ers has been anything but smooth or made good transi- orders. In that class I had five students working on an tions or worked especially well at any time and that enriched program." This is in the same room. The class prior governments haven't made it work. We recognize had approximately 28 kids in total. that. I think we know our own history. But what He says: "It's impossible to meet the needs of all you've done to damage the relationship with teachers students when the range is so vast and the breadth of during this government's time in office puts the entire the learning disorders, for which you have to become undertaking at risk. What you're doing with Bill 12 an expert, is so varied." I can grasp that. As a lay per- isn't the beginning of a fix. son, I can grasp that. "In the end, after many com- You have to recognize that it takes two parties to plaints to my AO, I did finally get a TA. It was still make a relationship work. The one with the greatest — — extremely challenging to meet the needs of the kids." power and that's always the employer has the [1615] higher obligation to make it work. It can never work One more just to give a sense that it covers a lot of anywhere if one of the parties gives itself permission to lives: "I'm a teacher who has nine years of university treat the other party with disrespect. It's a downward training, including a master's degree in medical genet- spiral. If you begin to institutionalize disrespect, you're ics, and I work very hard to educate the future scien- moving very quickly down that spiral. If you begin to tists of this province." Good linkage there. It's not approach the other party as though it needs to be babysitting; we're actually producing the people who taught a lesson, it's practically over. That's the path will contribute to our future productivity and allow us you're beginning to go down. to expand our horizons and become the most literate In a mature bargaining relationship — there's a lot and best-educated jurisdiction, not only in this hemi- contained in that phrase, Mr. Speaker; and you know sphere, but on the entire globe. "What I have gotten that as well as I — the parties know how to express from this government? I got an unfunded raise of 7.5 their disagreements and accept their differences. It's percent." Here's the insight: not the prettiest thing in the world, but it can work. …a raise I paid for myself when I had my workload in- When one party decides it's not worth taking the time creased by 25 percent. My old maximum class size was for dialogue, doesn't want to hear any more and gives 24. My classes are now all at 30, and I'm one of the lucky itself permission to act unilaterally, then the downward ones. Can I teach 30 kids? Sure. But I don't do labs any- spiral begins. That's exactly what the government has more. My room can only safely accommodate 24 kids. engineered by its calculated efforts to politicize teacher That's what it's built for. I don't do written assignments bargaining. anymore. At 15 minutes a paper, the 25 extra kids I have I have to tell you that if that's your goal, you're in my four classes would add over six hours of marking for every assignment. I give fewer tests and less individ- definitely succeeding in politicizing our teachers. ual attention to my kids. Maybe that's what you want. Maybe you want that He asked: punching bag. Maybe you want that so that you can How is this better for my students? How can you say knock it over and, in some misguided sense, be seen to you're putting kids first when you destroy the morale, be doing something for children and parents and sta-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 579 bility and whatever. It's not just the BCTF; it's the Mr. Speaker: No. Thank you, member. whole body of teachers — people who are professionals, who have a passion for teaching and learning and a D. Cubberley: Can I not make a plea that govern- commitment to seeing individual citizens reach their ment take the time…? potential by becoming lifelong learners, who simply want to practice their métier in a place that values and Mr. Speaker: Thank you, member. honours their service. [1620] D. Cubberley: I can't believe that the members op- I've had them visiting me of late in my constituency posite don't want to hear more. office and here at the Legislature. It's quite moving, Thank you, Mr. Speaker. because these are people who are not political by nature. They're people who feel that they have to act be- [H. Bloy in the chair.] cause they're being pushed into a corner. I think it would be helpful, actually, if we could all try to understand how that dynamic works, because at some time M. Sather: I rise to debate Bill 12. or another in our lives we've all been pushed into a The Labour Minister says that the system is "broke." corner, and what you do when you're pushed into a Given that this is about education, I have to say it's corner and you reach that last resort is fight back. broken. Nevertheless, I must say that there are a lot of These are people who are committed to being words that I think I could spell a lot better a few days teachers, but they're pained and they're offended and or a few years ago than I can today, so I'll cut the minis- they're insulted and they're disillusioned by what has ter a little slack there. gone on. They don't understand, because they aren't [1625] political people, why their calling in life…. They see it On a serious note, this is, indeed, a dark day in Brit- as a calling. They have to see it as a calling, because to ish Columbia — the day this bill was introduced. I put up with what gets thrown at them on a daily basis, think it bears some reflection on the history that they have to have a calling. You wouldn't stay. There brought us to this point. Although we recognize — and are easier ways to make a living — far easier ways. I think that all members in this House recognize — that They don't understand why their calling in life is it has been and always is difficult to come to an agree- being politicized and their aspirations to do good ment with regard to teacher negotiations because of the things, the right things, for children in their charge nature of their clientele. Their clientele are our chil- are not being respected; why teaching and learning dren, our most valued asset. conditions are of so little interest to those charged Having said that, what I've seen — and I think that with the stewardship of public education; and why a lot of people in British Columbia have recognized — class composition that can't possibly be handled by a is that this government, since the time they were single teacher is beginning to show up as a norm of elected in 2001, has set the stage for a very unfortunate school conditions. All that this can do over time, this situation that we have today — a situation where our denial about what's actually going on out there, is teachers…. It's not overstating the case to say that our drive the good teachers out of the system. That is not teachers feel absolutely dispirited, and there's no way a laudable goal, and I cannot believe for a moment that that can be good for education. There's no way that it is an outcome anyone in this chamber wants to that that can be good for our children. There's no way see. But that is what will happen if we continue down that that can be good for our society, because without a the path. strong education system, we're hooped. Our prosperity Where I come from, you have to keep talking across depends on well-educated citizens. the differences. I heard it from a very rough-and-ready How did this come about? Well, I think any unbi- labour leader very early on in my career. He's still very ased observer, if you look back at the history of what successful and, I think, has the respect of a lot of peo- happened in this province in 2001, saw a government ple, although he'd be a heck of a tough guy to ever come riding in on what they felt was a white horse at come up against. Buzz Hargrove in the middle of a the time, I'm sure, to rescue British Columbia. What strike, telling people: "Even though we are at this point, shortly became apparent, unfortunately, was that they we are talking." He said: "I keep talking to the other also had some very hard-nosed, punitive attitudes to- guy even when the other guy doesn't want to hear ward certain segments of our society. It became very from me any more. I keep talking, because the only apparent early on that one of those segments that this way that you ever come to an agreement is to keep the government had four-square in their sights was the conversation going. The only way you do that is by teachers of this province. reaching out." You know, it's not very politically popular to criti- I have the sense…. cize teachers, because parents recognize that their children depend on good teachers. A lot of those parents Mr. Speaker: Thank you, member. Time. go to schools regularly themselves to help out in the education system. They assist teachers. They work with D. Cubberley: I can't believe that I've already come them. By and large, they know that those teachers are to that point. Mr. Speaker, with your indulgence…. doing a very thorough and good job in educating their

580 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 children, so they're supportive of teachers. It's not po- of course, is at the top of that chain — has shown a litically saleable to attack teachers per se. profound disrespect for teachers. What this government has done, I have to say, is The government always tries to focus it on the un- focused on the union that represents these teachers, the ion. Most recently they've talked about: "Well, you B.C. Teachers Federation. It's not overstating the case to know, the BCTF is such a problem that we're just going use the phrases that have been used many times in this to bypass them. We're going to go talk directly to House already — that this government sought to vilify teachers." That's code for another insulting endeavour that body. They have tried in numerous ways to dis- towards this profession. It's saying again that your un- tance the B.C. Teachers Federation from teachers. In ion will not be recognized. Teachers are seeing that fact, that is exceedingly insulting. That's insulting to over and over and over again. It's part of the reason the teachers of this province, because their federation is why we're here in the sorry state that we're in. the body that represents them. It's a democratic body, [1635] and they exercise their free and democratic right to I want to talk a little bit about how education has collective bargaining. The B.C. Teachers Federation is changed, because I'm not sure that members opposite, the spokesperson — the spokesbody, if you will — for in all cases, are aware of that fact. I remember when I the teachers of this province. was in high school. When I was in school — and a [1630] number of members are probably in the same age We've gone through a succession of Education Min- group as I am — things were different. Teachers were isters. Certainly, some of those have been particularly respected by students and parents. Sometimes that damning, I have to say, of the teachers of this province respect was brought in a pretty harsh way, but it was through their union, the B.C. Teachers Federation. No there. Today, teachers are dealing with an entirely dif- teachers in this province, I think, will forget — and I ferent situation. believe I can mention her name — Christy Clark when I was talking to a high school teacher the other day, she was the Minister of Education. and he was telling me about how, in his classroom, a This attack on teachers has been aided and abetted, student had come in and was eating a sandwich in the I have to say, by media in this province. Week after middle of class. The teacher asked him to stop eating week, month after month, teachers have seen their the sandwich and attend to the lesson. He refused. He name, their profession dragged through the mud in the asked him again, and the student got up and told the media in all different sorts of ways. One of the ways teacher to "f" off. I obviously won't use the full phrase, that I feel was most unfair was the attack on the Col- but he used the full phrase, and he repeated it. lege of Teachers. I have to give the teacher some credit. Teachers also Every professional body has an organization to are certainly different than they used to be. He actually represent…. They may have a union, as teachers do, to found some humour in it. He said that because this guy represent them in bargaining with their employer, but got up and said, "'F' off, Mr. Jones," twice in a row, he they have a professional body, as well, to do with eth- thought: "Wow, he's still calling me 'Mr. Jones' despite ics and standards and the like. In their case it's the Col- what he's saying." lege of Teachers. Almost without exception, so far as In my day, you would be gone from school and I'm aware, the members of that college are people from probably wouldn't darken the doors again. I remember that profession. that in grade 12 one of my classmates — he was a good What did this government choose to do? They student in a small country school — decided, about chose to appoint people to that body in the majority, so two months before graduation in grade 12, to go down- teachers were left in the humiliating position of not town for some pop or whatever. He wasn't drinking having the majority of representation in their own col- alcohol. He came back to school late, and he wasn't that lege. Don't think for a moment that this hasn't had a late, either. He was suspended for the rest of the year. profound effect on teachers. I've talked to teachers over He missed his grade 12 examinations. That's pretty the years, and they're just outraged. They were out- harsh, but that's the kind of atmosphere it was. raged at what happened to their college. I think the way that teachers are handling it now is There have been a lot of developments of this na- better. I think the way this teacher handled that situa- ture that have led us to today. It's not an accident that tion is better. He explained to me how they would sit we're here. Yes, the system needs some fixing, if you down and talk with the student and try to get to the will. Although teachers have been legislated back to bottom of what was going on, bring in the parents and work in the past, I think it's quite safe to say again so on. Conditions have changed; there's no doubt. that…. I don't believe that the morale of teachers in this That's only one of the ways they've changed. province has ever been anywhere as low as it is today. We've heard a lot about special needs students. I'm The reason it's so low, I have to say, is because of the not exactly sure why, but I don't think there's any attitude of this government — the anti-teacher attitude doubt that teachers have a whole lot more special of this government. needs students than they used to have. In Maple Ridge, I don't believe for a moment that all members of in school district 42, where I'm from, there seems to be this House, by any means, are against teachers. I don't a particularly large number of students with autism. I believe that. But what I have seen is that the leadership don't know the reason for that, as I said, although I of this government — and the Premier of this province, know that our school district does focus a lot on special

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 581 needs and has done a good job over the years. I don't they're going about that? A lot of teachers I talk to know if parents are moving there with their children or don't believe that this government is supportive of the what. But I know that in our classes and our schools public education system. They, in fact, are concerned there are a lot of children with autism and Asperger's that this government is going to drive the public educa- syndrome. tion system down. They look around. They've seen I don't know if members know what it's like to be what happened with health care. in a class or to be a classroom teacher when you have Notwithstanding what editorialists in the Vancou- children with those kinds of profound special needs in ver Province might say, teachers are not irrational. your classroom. A child with autism requires a very They're not paranoid. But they're also not stupid. They strict environment. They don't have the capacity for believe that public education is under tremendous tolerating a lot of change, particularly quick change. A threat from this government. teacher is faced with having to be able to assist that What they've seen in health care is that health care student with their particular needs but at the same time is privatized. More and more of it has been privatized, create a varied environment for the other students. If and there have been a lot of problems with that priva- you have two or three or sometimes six special needs tization and the service that's being offered. They students, it's impossible. worry that the same thing is happening in the educa- Quite frankly, it's impossible to provide good edu- tion system — that if the education system is driven cation unless they have support. They need those spe- down so far that it's no longer functional, parents will cial education teachers. They need those assistants to be forced to seek alternatives. Whether they want to or be able to help them to give those children the educa- not, they will be forced to send their children to private tion that they deserve, and they're not getting it. We've school. Every time you take a child out of the public heard a lot about that, and that is having a really nega- school system, you take a lot of dollars with that child. tive effect. [1645] [1640] We've heard a lot of words from this government That's why you hear over and over again about over the last four years about education. We hear class composition. We've heard it a number of times in things like "choice." We hear words like "flexibility." this debate. That's why it's so significant to teachers, We hear words like "accountability." It all sounds really because they have profoundly behaviourally disturbed great. children, they have children with special needs, and they have an atmosphere where there's less respect for K. Krueger: Good words. them. In my community 65 percent of parents work out- M. Sather: They are good words, but what do they side the community. An average commute is probably mean in this case? Well, you might want to cast your two hours a day. They're tired and worn out when they eyes south of the border and have a look at the educa- get home. They don't have a lot of time, sometimes, to tion system that President Bush is in favour of. You devote to their children's needs. There are a lot of sin- will see a lot of those words used there also. This is the gle parents, not only in my community but in all our kind of education system that…. This is a Fraser Insti- communities. Children do not necessarily have the tute model of education. supports they need to be ready for school when they The government is really getting big on testing. get there. These are some of the challenges that teach- Wow, what could be wrong with testing? I have a ers face. background in science myself. I've gone through eight Teachers are willing and able to meet those chal- years of post-secondary education, passed a lot of tests. lenges given a fair and level playing field, but they I think that testing has a place. It does, and I believe don't feel that they have it. I have to say that I agree that measurement, objectivity and looking at the scien- with them. They do not have it. This government has tific results can be of value, but it also can be misused. not provided the kind of environment they need to It also can be misused. ensure that the children in our schools grow up to be They have a concern — teachers I've spoken to — successful adults. How shortsighted is that? If we don't that there are more and more barriers, in fact, being put have successful children becoming successful adults, to education through this testing model. There have our economy is going to suffer. always been exams; there always will be exams. Now The members opposite are focused a lot on the there are exams in grade ten that weren't there before. economy, so they should understand. They say they It's getting harder and harder to get into university. All understand the value of an education system, but I for what purpose? Is it actually going to improve the don't think they do. In dollars and cents terms, I don't education system, or is it actually going to divide the think they get it. This is not good for the economy, education system between the haves and the have-nots, never mind what it's doing to the hearts and minds, if the winners and the losers? you will, of these children and their families. The problem is that all students need to be winners. Teachers have concerns about the intent of this We can't afford to have an education system of winners government. The government says their intent is to and losers. It's not going to work for our society. This is keep children in school. That's a laudable goal. We all not a marketplace system, at least it shouldn't be. That want to keep children in school. But how is it that isn't going to be the best for our society and the best for

582 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 our students at all. They have a concern that the sion. He said to me that there are four grade-nine math running-down of the education system they see hap- classes with 36, 35, 35 and 34 students. One of the pening is a precursor to privatization. grade-12 math students who worked on my campaign I just got a letter recently from one of my constitu- said: "We have 35 students in my class, and in math it ents who's a teacher in the district, and she said her doesn't work. We have to have the individual attention biggest concern is that the Premier's government is to learn, and we don't have it." trying to privatize education. I hear that a lot. That's a There are a lot of other examples that he gave me concern they have, and I think, unfortunately, it's not too: a wood shop class with 27, although it's designed unfounded. One of the schools in my district was pri- with a safety limit of 24. Three science nine classes, vatized after it was closed by the school board, because with 29 in a lab designed for 24…. they had no choice because of the downloading that's been thoroughly documented in this House already. Deputy Speaker: Member, your time. It's really galling, I must say, to hear the members opposite sometimes say: "What cuts? There were no M. Sather: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. cuts." It's completely disingenuous. They know there were cuts. They just got somebody else to do the cut- G. Gentner: It's with great pleasure that I am able ting. to address the House today, but it's unfortunate under [1650] the circumstances why I'm here relative to this impor- Well, this school that's been privatized in my school tant edict that's coming down from this government district is an outfit from Britain. They're offering re- opposite. duced tuition for those in the local public schools who'll sign up in their school. One of the things they The member for Saanich South talked earlier about also promote with their school — and a lot of private the IEP situation, the learning difficulties with children schools promote, interestingly enough — is small class in our schools. Our teachers in my district are besieged size. Class size — that's the other issue that's pretty big with the same problem: late hours at night. There are in this dispute. I think we heard the government say other details I hope we'll have time to come forward earlier today that they instituted class size because they with this evening or this afternoon, but I do have to ask are concerned about that. Only for primary did they this government to cross what is really motivating this institute class sizes. The others are averages. I'm sure a whole agenda here. lot of the members opposite, most of the members op- [1655] posite, are well educated, and they will know that I can tell you that in my district, we have seen the there's a difference between averages and absolute wholesale sale of schools that have been sold. We've numbers. It's the absolute numbers that count. seen the increase of private schools. We've seen subdi- The same teacher I was mentioning earlier, who visions created out of school yards. When you look at was sworn at by one of his students, was telling me this thing globally, you have to look at the end result. that his classroom — and some of the newer class- This government opposite certainly looks favourably to rooms are actually smaller than the old ones — doesn't the end result of privatization of schools. have desks for all his students. Some of his students are In 2002 the government took out of collective bar- sitting along the ledges along the window. That's no gaining the right to negotiate classroom conditions and education system that we can be proud of. That's an instead put such issues into legislation, which we now education system in decay. know as the School Act. The BCTF wants learning con- I believe it has been clear to everyone that is an ditions to be reinstated as part of collective bargaining. unbiased observer, as I've said, that this government As such conditions directly impact their working envi- has had no intention to bargain in good faith with ronment, the B.C. Teachers Federation wants to negoti- teachers. Now we hear that the Labour Minister has ate such conditions directly with the government. had some talks with Jinny Sims of the BCTF and the On this issue the fact-finder report points to some B.C. Federation of Labour, and let's hope that some- opportunity for movement. According to the report, thing more is going to happen. I'm not hopeful that it both the teachers and the province agree that educators will, but it certainly needs to for the good of our chil- should be part of any dialogue that sets policy guide- dren. It certainly needs to. All of this is absolutely no lines on class size and composition. But Bill 12 is way to make British Columbia the most literate juris- strictly based on subjectivity. Nothing is for certain in diction in North America. bargaining except meaningful dialogue. Communica- I mean, it defies understanding how the govern- tion is decent and productive in a democratic society, ment can go and talk about making British Columbia not a lash hanging over one's head — in this case, a big the most literate jurisdiction in North America, the stick. Yes, Bill 12 is a billy stick — a big one. world — I'm not sure where — and then make the Tyranny can be disguised in many different ways, conditions so unfavourable for the development of but nothing could be as vulgar and hateful in a democ- literacy. racy than when it's under the pretence of the public I wanted to mention a couple of other teachers that authority. It's clear that in British Columbia, prison talked to me about some of their concerns. One of them doors could be open for teachers, while this govern- is a teacher who lives in my district and teaches in Mis- ment has closed a door for them as well.

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The B.C. Teachers Federation — let's get to the facts and meaningful dialogue regarding this crucial issue that — bargaining team is and always has been available to is entirely separate from the collective bargaining pro- meet with the employer to reach a negotiated settle- cess. ment. When the representatives of the British Colum- I think it's important that we do comparatives. I bia Public School Employers Association met with the think we should even look at what happened last media on September 15, they indicated that they had spring in Ontario, for example. The teachers got a deal. costed the B.C. Teachers Federation proposal and had The deal included a sum, albeit paltry, of 11 percent, determined that it would be worth 35 percent of the but they got a deal over three years: 200 minutes of total annual education costs. Their numbers included a prep time per week, the hiring of 1,300 specialist teach- salary increase of between 10 and 13 percent. This is ers and an early government announcement of $300 simply not true. million to reduce class size, which will likely mean To date, the B.C. Teachers Federation has not tabled 2,600 more teachers hired for public elementary a salary proposal. The B.C. Teachers Federation presi- schools. It goes to show you that negotiations can dent has said: "That is simply a fabricated number with work. no connection whatever to reality. In the last round we tabled improvements to maternity leave. When the B.C. [S. Hawkins in the chair.] Public School Employers Association calculated the costs, they assumed every single teacher of child- What it did, of course, was bring peace to Ontario's bearing age would become pregnant within the three- public elementary schools. The Ontario government year life of the contract. That was totally absurd." brought the peace with the province's public elemen- Early in September the B.C. Teachers Federation tary school teachers by handing out close to a billion received legal advice. Acting on that advice, the B.C. dollars to local school boards. I want to look at Ontario. Teachers Federation lifted from the bargaining table Before I do, it has to be said that Bill 12 is an edict of the language that the government stripped from its the Liberal government, a retro–restraint program to contract in 2002. On September 16 the B.C. Teachers tighten up the belts of teachers. Federation tabled manner-and-consequences language You know, for many of us on this side, this is all with the B.C. Public School Employers Association. new to us. But I have to tell you, we're also going When the Minister of Labour released the fact- through estimates, and this government hasn't even finding report on the current dispute between the pro- given us the courtesy to go to estimates and challenge vincial government and the BCTF, it stated that the two the minister on expenditures and see where we can parties were far from agreement, particularly with re- find the money. No, they had to ram this legislation gards to the key issues at the bargaining table. Wages through. A very sad day in British Columbia. remain a key stumbling block, and the other issue in- This type of edict ignores traditional wage com- volves the negotiation of class size and composition. parisons, has taken out consultation of any kind, is The report states that the two parties involved in the duplicated countless times over and over again. I think dispute are far from any agreement. The report was we should look at the comparisons, and I have statistics completed by Rick Connolly, associate deputy minister from the Canadian Teachers Federation, which really to the Minister of Labour and Citizens' Services. has no bias with the B.C. Teachers Federation. It looks In response to the release of the fact-finder report, at a comparative example throughout the country. our opposition critic for Education commented to the Let's see where British Columbia fares on the wage media with the following messages: scale. I'll give an example. In my school district, Delta, The fact-finder report on the collective bargaining dis- at the entry level teachers with no teaching experience pute between the provincial government and the B.C. begin at $35,000. I have to tell you that after all of the Teachers Federation provides an opportunity for pro- university costs, the tuition fees — the escalating tui- gress on issues related to learning conditions in the class- tion fees — it's not easy to live in one of the highest- room. This side calls on all parties in this dispute to dem- per-capita areas, certainly, in North America at $35,000. onstrate leadership and take advantage of this new opportunity to improve classroom education. It may also When we look up at Prince George, of course, we can serve as a catalyst to improve other outstanding issues at see it's $35,629. We can look at Surrey, across Scott the bargaining table. Road from me — maybe $100 dollars more per annum, We urge the Premier and the Minister of Labour to at $35,768. In today's world, that really isn't much establish this forum as soon as possible, to ensure that the money in British Columbia. With the price of gas and issues of class composition and learning conditions are the escalating price of property values, it's not that discussed alongside the other important issues in this much money. dispute. [1705] [1700] When you look at Nova Scotia, the entry level for The report states: teachers there, believe it or not, is $35,906 per annum. Effective public policy requires involvement of all those affected. I've been to Nova Scotia. It's a wonderful place. I've And in what came further, it was his opinion that: been to Sydney and to Halifax. I've done Cape Breton. Government should develop an approach to engage with It's a wonderful part of the world. It's a great part of teachers and education stakeholders including parents, Canada. They make more money there — and I know trustees, superintendents and principals in the effective what the price of a house in that area is worth. It's al-

584 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 most half — at least half — the price of a house in the I think it's absolutely disgraceful how this govern- lower mainland. Think about it, Madam Speaker. ment is treating our teachers in probably the highest Teachers in Nova Scotia at entry level are making more part of North America…. I think it's a complete slap in money than those living in Surrey. the face to those who definitely deserve better than Let's look at Brampton, Ontario — Brampton or that. Of course, we can continue to go on with, shall we Wellington, which are far removed from the urban hub say, part-time teachers. of T.O. They, too, are comparable or are making more Prince George hasn't been talked about. Let's talk money. about Prince George. Minimum annual salary with the Let's go a little higher in the wage scale — again, minimum entry-level qualifications is $35,629. Let's entry level. Let's go to the rich confines of Kelowna and compare that with Edmonton at $44,195. Incredible. Coquitlam. Entry level for Kelowna is $35,775. For Co- Now let's quickly talk about the maximum teachers' quitlam it's $35,916. Again, for a professional in British base in British Columbia. Let's even go to secondary Columbia that's a deplorable entry fee in my estimation education in Vancouver: $70,397. That sounds like — what you have to do in order to make a living in this quite a bit more. When you go back to Nova Scotia — province. Natalie MacMaster, by the way, great lady, great tunes, I want to compare that higher scale to the lovely comes from Nova Scotia — 71,745 bucks. In London, province of New Brunswick: $37,132 — $2,000 more Ontario, $73,502. In Peel, $76,000. They make a little per annum. Newfoundland, way out there by St. John's more money there in London, Ontario, I guess, because — $40,000. When we go to Toronto — albeit it does the Canadian Auto Workers have that plant over there, have, of course, higher prices — they, too, are making and because they're able to negotiate, I guess people, far more money than are urban areas here in the lower too, want a decent wage there — far better than we'll mainland. see here with this government. — — I understand the reason way up in the territories — York not quite Toronto; it's outside Toronto is Yellowknife and Yukon. They're up to $48,000, $55,000, up to $76,265. Even Manitoba is making more. and they deserve it with the bargaining and the area Teacher's salary, max, $74,000. It sounds a little mo- they have to live in. There's no question there. notonous, but it's overwhelming, what these stats say — isn't it? I want to look at one of the highest areas, and it's Let's go back to the wonderful, incredible, free en- the good bargaining position that occurred for years in terprise capital of Canada, Alberta: Calgary, $76,000; the Greater Victoria area — one of the higher areas in Edmonton, $75,321; Red Deer, $74,283; and little old British Columbia. Entry level is under $40,000. It's Medicine Hat — bless them for living there; I've been $39,473. Where do we compare that? It's almost compa- through it in 20 minutes, blink-blink — $74,680. Think rable to little old Moose Jaw, Regina or Saskatoon. I of it. Cost of living. We're going to deny the teachers have nothing against Regina. It's a lovely little place. I the right to have a decent wage. You should be was basically raised in that area. But the cost of living ashamed of yourself over there. in Regina cannot be compared in any way to the cost of [1715] living in Greater Victoria. Now I want to talk about…. Let's talk about princi- I want to talk about that bastion, if I can, that area pals. Hang on, let's talk about principals. For the prin- of Alberta, which the members opposite ascribe as the cipals in Vancouver, the maximum is $114,000. In Nova wonderful age — new era — they're looking towards Scotia they're $91,000. Isn't it interesting how the ad- to accomplish. ministrators suddenly make way more money in Brit- Before I go there, let's look at even Manitoba. It's ish Columbia than in any other province? Isn't that $39,473 in Greater Victoria. St. James, $42,958. Mani- interesting indeed, how that works? I don't know. Sas- toba — think of the cost of living there to living here. katchewan, even little Saskatchewan, $99,256 for a Winnipeg, even more money — $4,310. principal. Edmonton — oh, they've got lots of money. [1710] The administrators there still make less than the ad- Let's look at the ivory-tower province that the ministrators here — $104,000. And the same thing with members across ascribe to. Let's look at Lethbridge, Medicine Hat, although Medicine Hat makes slightly $43,698; Red Deer, $44, 366; Edmonton, $44,195; and, more. There you go. Calgary, $44,266. So how can you compare? How can In British Columbia we have one of the lowest rates you deny the teachers a proper living allowance in this of pay for our teachers and probably one of the most province when you look across the Rockies and see expensive places in North America to live, compared to what they're getting? In light of the fact of the boasting the rest of Canada. Yet the administration side makes that's going across from the other side on this great more money than anywhere else in Canada. Vice- economy and the surplus, why are we denying profes- principal salaries — I have the stats here. We can go sionals their due lot? through that too. But time is slowly running by us. Of course, the interesting one, the highest of all, is Similarly, if a public employer wants to fill a senior the little town of "the Hat" — Medicine Hat. The south- executive position by attracting an individual with ern Saskatchewan flows to it where the deer and ante- special talents and qualifications away from private lope roam. Think about it: almost $45,000 for entry- business or from university life, it often has to negoti- level teachers. ate a mutually acceptable employment contract for him

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 585 or her. The fact that the government may be elected, stead, they suspect a carefully orchestrated effort by the that it may enjoy popular majority support, does not government to use ad hoc legislation to snatch victory normally entitle it to conscript the assets of services of from the jaws of defeat at the bargaining table. individuals or firms which the public would find use- Realistic or paranoid, that feeling exists and is growing, and it presents a serious problem. If there is any les- ful. son I have learned from five years in the fray, it is how Instead, it has to negotiate a voluntary agreement fragile the legitimacy of the law is in labour relations, on terms which ultimately depend upon its relative how tenuous a purchase the legal system has on collec- bargaining position. That goes with management. You tive employee actions. If the law is to be successful in the know where you get the best management, the most short run in getting employees back to work and effec- expensive per capita administrators in British Colum- tive in the long run in maintaining their morale and pro- bia? You've got to sit down and bargain with them. ductivity, then we do need a dispute mechanism that has an indispensable role, providing it is visible and authori- You've done that. tative with mutual judgments about whether legislation really is necessary and offering professional advice about Deputy Speaker: Address your comments through the shape the statute should take. the Chair, member. We've had that. We've gone that route. This government has ignored it. G. Gentner: Sorry, Madam Speaker. Befitting a subject as important and intractable as strikes I've been on Delta council for years, and we've had by essential public employees, I need not belabour its to sit down and work with managers. We worked out significance. Its intractability stems from the fact that we are pursuing a number of industrial relations objectives. salary benefits. We negotiated back and forth, all in We are fostering meaningful collective bargaining for good faith, and there were some trying times. We did it public employees, including teachers, producing decent with CUPE, and we certainly did it with our manage- and sensible agreements for the parties and minimizing ment. industrial unrest and the harm that this may inflict on all What I find interesting is when you look at — and of us. this is all public information — the remuneration of Each of these aims is inherently worthwhile. Un- deputy ministers. It's interesting that the deputy minis- fortunately, they are not always compatible. Intelli- ter for education in total makes $236,000. That's equiva- gent policy-making makes this area indeed difficult, a juggling act of trying to do as much justice as we can lent to four teachers or 8,000 hours of special ed time. do for all of them. You know, that was negotiated. He came here, most My views — my bias, if you will — should be clear. likely, because of the package. The government negoti- In stark contrast to the United States, jurisdictions ated a deal to get him here because, obviously, they felt across Canada have extended the right to strike to the he was worth it. I'm not going to deny that. vast bulk of all public employees. These workers have I will say that when you look at the sheets, the dep- tasted the fruit of that freedom, and it is unrealistic to uty minister is the third-highest bureaucrat in the prov- think we can turn the clock back. To try to do so ince. In fact, interestingly enough, his salary is well through massive restraints on the right to strike might beyond the loyal, dutiful bureaucrat of the Premier, well prove as futile as King Canute trying to stem the Mr. Ken Dobell. Mr. Dobell, as we all know, has done a tide. great job for many years. Mr. Dobell has, of course, I do admit that the wish may be father to the been involved with the Premier in his stint as the thought. I do not think we should try to turn the clock mayor of Vancouver. Mr. Dobell was instrumental in back. We have proved that we can live with public the GVRD. He comes with great and wonderful cre- employee strikes, although many people do not accept dentials. He was also back there when the Premier de- that. However exaggerated, their emotional responses cided to sell the fire boat, and of course, we know that are a fact of life with which the policy-maker must the people of San Francisco picked that up really deal. quickly.

[1720] B. Lekstrom: I rise today to speak to Bill 12, a piece The point is that these people come at a premium, of legislation that I don't think anybody is joyful about, and we do negotiate in order for them to be here — so certainly, on this side of the House or your side. But it's whether a teacher or a deputy minister, we do negoti- a bill that, in my mind, is necessary. We've reached that ate. We do negotiate. point, and I've heard a lot over the last couple of days' I want to talk briefly about Mr. Paul Weiler. Mr. debate on this bill — issues that certainly we're here to Weiler was the chair of the B.C. Labour Relations have the open and free dialogue on. That's democracy. Board. He was also doing groundbreaking analysis of [1725] the Supreme Court of Canada and also helped draft the I'm going to take the opportunity to lay out some Charter of Rights. His comments are simple: factual information as I see it. I think that's what we all In my experience, Ministers of Labour try to make judg- have the opportunity to do. There's no good feeling for ments in a relatively dispassionate manner, not out of a anybody. There's no good feeling for government, for direct desire to protect the negotiating position of their cabinet colleagues. Given our firmly embedded princi- opposition, for the teachers, for parents and, most im- ples of cabinet secrecy and solidarity, it is probable that portantly, for our children to see us yet again in the the union and its members do not see it that way. In- position we're faced with in British Columbia.

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Our education budget is something that I want to "and benefit package" — is higher than all other prov- touch on. Listening to what I've heard over the last inces except Ontario and Alberta. We can say that. couple of days, one would be led to believe that we've The other one, as well, is that right now the starting cut the education budget, that it's been devastated. For salary for a teacher with a baccalaureate degree is not those people that want to pay attention — unfortu- $35,000. It's $41,663, with pay increases incorporated nately, some on the other side may not — they can go into that, which will take roughly ten years as they to the audited financial statements of this government progress through to a wage scale of $64,489. That's and this province, and they can see what the real facts what most teachers will earn after ten years in the sys- are. tem. We have the highest budget ever for education in [1730] K-to-12. In 2000-2001 — and I'll read these numbers for Again, I'm going to point out that I don't know a the public and for the British Columbians out there that teacher that went into the profession — and I know we are watching — $4.59 billion was spent on the K-to-12 all have friends; I'm sure many of us have family that system. Today we have budgeted $5.07 billion. That's a are part of this — of teaching to get rich. They went 10.5-percent increase. So nobody, even if they want to into it because they have a love of children and a love say it, could believe it in their heart that there's been a of their ability to teach our children. If money were cut to education. They can qualify what they want to what it was about, most people wouldn't be looking to say, but I've yet to hear them qualify with a statement most of the professions they're in. People do it because of fact. So I have a grave concern over that. they work, and they enjoy that work. That's the key In 2005-2006 our province will spend $7,097 per issue that I think we have to make sure we understand student. It's an increase of $881 since 2000-2001, and on that. we're at the highest rate ever. Again, good news for the students of this province. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] A highlight this year: we'll invest and have budgeted $150 million to our education system, the highest We aren't here as a result of something new in this increase in over a decade. Again, good news, yet some province. There's a history to why we're here yet again people will try and find something wrong with that. legislating yet another contract for the teachers. I've It's hard to believe. heard a lot about this government, this bad Liberal On the capital side, I've heard a lot about schools government. I fundamentally disagree with that state- having been closed. Yes, schools have been closed. I've ment because I'm very proud. We should never lose had a couple in my riding closed. But I'll tell you, just a sight of the fact — this is a good one, and I'll slide off a little common sense will go a long way. It makes very bit here — that British Columbia became a have-not little is sense to me to run three schools at 30-percent province under the previous government, the NDP. capacity, where we can spend all the money on light We're back. No longer will that happen in British Co- and heat and so on, versus running one school at 90 lumbia, let me tell you. That's embarrassing. percent, where the funding can then go to the children. I'm going to just quote a few things from a piece of That makes a lot of sense to me. paper on the history of how bargaining went. Prior to Again, I have no problem debating the issues and 1987, the teachers union had no right to strike. Binding the facts, but it has to be based on fact. What I've seen arbitration was used. Local bargaining dealt with the over the last couple of days is scare tactics — talking to compensation issues. From 1988 to 1993 there was full the camera, talking to the people of British Columbia bargaining and the right to strike locally, which re- about what's been going on. I think it's healthy to have sulted in 30 strikes and two lockouts and significantly good debate and to put the facts out there as we see increased costs. Since 1993 government intervention them, but the word "facts" is the key, and we're going has been required to settle each collective agreement to push that. negotiated with the B.C. Teachers Federation. On the capital side, I'm just going to point out a few There's no pleasure in standing here to say we're issues since 2001 that our government has done. We've here yet again to do that, but there certainly shouldn't approved 139 projects. Those projects include 14 new be any pleasure from the other side in trying to point schools, 26 additions, and 54 renovations and replace- out that it's this government. It's a systematic problem ments. We've got 31 new sites and 14 seismic upgrades, that we have, and there is a highlight. If we can find and we're committed to completing the full seismic anything out of this piece of legislation, it's that we're upgrade for all of our schools for the safety of our chil- going to keep the kids in the classroom. But more im- dren, our teachers and the educators that work in the portantly, we're going to find a way so that we may system. Again, that's good news. never, as legislators in this province, have to legislate a I'm not here to talk about teachers and say: are they settlement on the BCTF again, because they can be ne- good or bad? I'm going to speak to that in a bit, because gotiated at a table. That's my hope. I have a great deal of respect for teachers. I heard the I want to go over that point again, because many previous speaker talking about wages, and now I'm British Columbians may have not heard this over the going to use some of my facts as well. The BCTF mini- last couple of days listening to the opposition, and mum salary and benefit package — let's not forget that, again, I have the utmost respect. Issue your views. In because far too often we can have a play on words; 1993, 1996 and 1998 the teachers were legislated back to

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 587 work in these very chambers by the opposition, who Student achievement. Let's touch on that, because was then government — the NDP. That's what hap- that's really a goal and a mark that we should look at. pened. How are our students doing? That's what education is I've touched on the bargaining history. I'm going to about, at least in my mind. What's taking place for our move on. We have a zero-zero-and-zero mandate. Is that students? How are they doing out there with their something I think British Columbia public sector workers marks and in the world? Well, I'm going to point out are happy about? No, I don't. But I can tell you that we've some issues for you. Our completion rate in 2003-2004 reached 130 agreements already with our public sector was 79 percent. Is that very good? I'd like to see it at unions. So I don't understand why, when the BCTF came 100 percent, as I'm sure every parent and every person to the bargaining table, they thought they would be ex- in this room would. But the key issue here is that it's up empt from that while other government employees — 3 percent, 3 percentage points, from 2000-2001. brothers and sisters of theirs across this province — have That tells me it's moving in the right direction. accepted zero-zero-and-zero knowing that the zero-zero- Those are good numbers. Our aboriginal completion and-zero mandate expires March 31, 2006. Then there rate is up as well. It's at 47 percent in 2003-2004. Again, will be the opportunity to negotiate wage settlements not numbers I'm proud of. I'm stating them because I'd again in British Columbia. We will have the ability — not love them to be higher, but the key here again is that as government, but as British Columbians and British they're up 5 percent from 2000-2001. That's good news. Columbia together — to afford those and advance them Student achievement is up, and according to the latest in a sustainable manner. That's a key issue. international test of 15-year-olds, no other country out- The zero-zero-and-zero mandate that I talked performed British Columbia in math or reading, and about…. I guess if I was a worker out there in British only Finland and Japan did better in science. Columbia right now, a government employee, and I'd Good, very good. You know what? It's a direct re- accepted a package that included zero-zero-and-zero, sult of our education system and the dedication our which I want to point out under the situation we face teachers have to their students. That's what that's a with the teachers in this province today and the BCTF…. result of. It's not a result of the opposition talking about They're accepting zero-and-zero because the mandate this bill or our government talking about this bill. It's a expires on March 31 of next year. The third year is open result of our educators and the care and love and the for compensation discussion. I think I'd have to be dedication and commitment they have to their chil- somewhat dumbfounded why one group thinks they dren. I call them children, and I probably shouldn't. I should deserve something when others haven't gotten mean, someone in grade 12 is not a child. They're a anything, yet agreed to it — not been legislated, but young adult getting ready to go out into life. agreed to it, 130 negotiated settlements. A key issue. We talked about class size and composition, and I heard a lot about our education system, and I'm a I've heard a lot of concerns. I have those concerns. I product of it. I grew up in Dawson Creek. I went through don't think anybody would stand here and say that if grade school and graduated high school there. I'm very there's an overly large class, it wouldn't be a concern proud that my daughters have attended the same ele- for them. We do have to look at that. We enshrine class mentary school and high school as I have. I have one in size in legislation, and I fully support that, because I university; the other is still in grade 11. I'm proud of the don't believe class size should be bargained at the bar- ability that I have as a result of the teachers I had. gaining table. It's just not the place for it. Do I think [1735] teachers should have the ability to come to the table, I give full credit to my teachers. I think people who though, and talk about class size, about composition? didn't would probably be somewhat foolish. They're Most definitely I do. the ones who help us through tough times, as I've Our government has said that all along. It wasn't heard from the opposite side. Sometimes when we're that we took it out of the collective agreement and put having difficulty learning a subject, they're the ones it in legislation so that teachers, parents and educators that are there, and they still are there. would never have the ability to look at that again. Ac- I want to touch on something, because I hear a lot tually, what we've done is opened up the opportunity about overcrowded classrooms, no desks, no textbooks. for educators, for teachers, for parents and for govern- Well, in 1967, roughly when I started school, I remem- ment to sit down at a table…. Some people will call it a ber grade one, grade two, grade three. There were parallel process, although some will relate that to the years I started school and — you know what? — there bargaining table, so I want to be somewhat cautious. weren't enough desks for the kids in the classroom We'll call it…. We'll sit down. then. But within a day or two — as class sizes and the We'll sit down at the learning round table that the composition, as we call it today, got worked out — minister spoke about today and talk about the class they were there. sizes, and…. We shared books in 1968 in my elementary school. We shared books as I went through school. It's incredible. But certainly the opposition would have you, the Interjection. public, think this is a new phenomenon. It's new, and it has been created. There is nothing further from the B. Lekstrom: A member asks when. I would hope truth. as quickly as possible.

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But there is a reality, and let's not kid ourselves. We education system, and we're going to continue doing can all think about it. This is a tough bill. I don't think that. we're sitting down tonight with the teachers and par- I've also heard too many times from the other side ents to talk about class size and composition. But I cer- — and that's one of the reasons I'm standing here right tainly believe that once this bill makes its way through now to speak to this bill — about how we don't care this Legislature, we'd better begin that process imme- about children, about how we don't respect teachers. diately, because we care, just as you care. You know, it's bloody awful to hear that out of their [1740] mouths. It's awful. I'm not standing here to say that you don't care. I'll address that a few minutes into my address here, be- Mr. Speaker: Member. cause I've heard some comments that…. Well, I'll address that later. They amuse me. B. Lekstrom: That's unparliamentary, Mr. Speaker? Class size and composition. Again, you're right, Then it's just darned right awful. How's that? and everyone in this chamber is right when they say it You know what? I think most of us are parents. If isn't just about the number. I believe some classes can we aren't parents, we've been part of the education be taught with 30 students — 32 even, 33. But you system. But to have somebody sit on the other side know who's going to have the ability to dictate that or who doesn't know me and probably doesn't know the decide? The teacher? The composition is what we talk majority of the members over here…. about. Special needs students being included in those numbers is really what we want to sit at that round Mr. Speaker: Through the Chair, please. table and talk about. What's the number that works? I don't think it can be a hard and fast number, because I B. Lekstrom: Sorry, Mr. Chair. think teachers teach in different ways. I think the To have members from the other side, Mr. Chair, teachers themselves are going to have some valuable point the finger over here and imply that I don't care input as to where we're going to end up with those about children, I don't care about our education system numbers. and I don't care about teachers is dead wrong. I'll never accept it, and it is…. How did I put it, Mr. Speaker, so So I look forward to that. Our government looks that you would accept it? I guess I'll just say they're forward to that. I certainly hope the opposition looks wrong. They know they're wrong, and they should be forward to it, because it's a great bill. ashamed of themselves for saying it. We made education an essential service, Mr. The job action that is scheduled to take place — it Speaker. I stand here and tell you I wholeheartedly was announced — which everybody is waiting for to- supported it then, I support it now, and I will support morrow, is a decision that each and every individual it in the future. I just won't change my mind. I'm here, teacher is going to make. The BCTF has taken a vote, and people…. and their members will do what they believe they have We've heard the definition of essential service to do, although it's going to break the law. It's a viola- quoted. I can't think of anything more essential, in my tion of the law, and as was pointed out here earlier, mind, than making sure our kids get an education, we're lawmakers. It doesn't mean we agree with every making sure they're in the classroom being taught. I law, but the sign of a good democracy is that you try honestly don't believe, although we're here today de- and work within that system of law. If you disagree bating this bill, the BCTF and the teachers in British with it, you change that law within these chambers. Columbia want to take job action. Are they frustrated? You don't break the law on the streets of British Co- I think they are, justifiably so. lumbia. But the other side again — I'll address this — I don't support their job action. Do I have the ability would have British Columbians believe it's a result…. to respect an individual's choice as to what they're go- Since 2001 when this government was elected, they're ing to do? Yes, I do, and I'll let them live with the con- frustrated. Well, I have to tell you…. sequences. I'll let them take their decision. I believe that [Applause.] in their heart they believe they're doing the right thing, They can clap, but for the people that can look at just as I know in my heart I'm doing the right thing by history — and I know many of you were there through speaking to this bill, by supporting this bill and, more the 1990s…. You did the same thing three times, and I importantly, by looking for a future that teachers can don't think you did it with a smile. I would think that have the ability to negotiate a contract in this province you actually had concern when you had to bring those without having to be before this Legislative Assembly, pieces of legislation forward. I know many of you. which is now — for the fifth time — to have a legis- Some I'm starting to get to know. I won't stand here lated settlement imposed. and judge you, but I can't believe anybody when they [1745] presented those pieces of legislation through the '90s The other one is that there's a lot of blame. There's a was smiling and jumping for joy. They felt it was the lot of blame being pointed out here. I hear the other right thing to do. That's what we are here today doing, side talk about our leader, about how he doesn't care because we think this is the right thing. We know it's about education, about our children, about our teach- the right thing for children, for the parents and for our ers. I've worked with our Premier as an elected official

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 589 for a little over four years. I've known him for probably the teachers, because I'm hoping that the new system ten years. I can tell you that probably as I get to know that we look towards, which is going to be brought you, I may have some of the same feelings. But I can forward, is one that can be accepted by both sides, tell you that I don't know a more passionate person looked at and worked in good faith on both sides so about education than our Premier. that we can put our children first and foremost again. I'm not going to take a whole lot more time, be- There's no doubt in my mind — and I'll reiterate this cause this isn't about talking about somebody is good because I've heard it far too often from the other side…. or somebody is bad. We're talking about a bill that I I do respect teachers. A great deal of them are good think everybody has somewhat of a heavy heart having friends of mine. There is no doubt in my mind that to discuss or present or vote on. I'm sure the opposition when I go back to my constituency, we'll have some believes how they're going to vote. I know how I'm good debates. going to vote, and I believe our government certainly [1750] knows how they're going to vote on this. The most important thing I'm going to tell every- I want to go back to the blame issue. It's always body here is that we're going to remain friends, be- been, "We're blaming you, government; we're blaming cause losing friends over politics isn't the issue. Having you," which is a sad statement. I'm telling you, Mr. a good debate is a healthy issue, and I encourage all of Speaker, I'm going to stand here today and put it the us to do that. I'm proud to be a member of this Legisla- way it probably should have been put five years ago, tive Assembly, as I'm sure you all are. We're going to eight years ago, ten years ago, two years ago. There's get through this. I'm going to look to the future, and enough blame to be shared by all of us. There's enough we're going to fix it so we don't have to be debating a blame to be shared by the NDP, who didn't fix this bill like this again in this chamber. issue. There's enough blame to be shared by the BCTF. Yes, there's enough blame to be shared by us, our gov- Point of Order ernment here today. [Applause.] Hon. M. de Jong: I rise on a point of order, and that It's interesting to hear them clap. When you talk point of order is to alert the House that the government about blame about the government, it's fine. Talk about intends to move for a continuation of the sitting be- blame on their side, and they're dead silent. Amazing. yond 6 p.m. I therefore do move that the House at its That is a sad state. I'm standing here saying that I think rising stand recessed for 35 minutes and continue to sit we can all bear a little responsibility for the position we thereafter until adjournment. — find ourselves in here today as legislators, as parents, as teachers. But the key issue is that we're going M. Farnworth: I will respond to the motion by the to fix it, I hope. member after Committee A has reported out. Forget what happened yesterday. Forget what happened in 1993, in 1996, in 1998, since we came to gov- Hon. M. de Jong: I'm obliged to the Opposition ernment. You know what? People say you don't want House Leader. I think Committee A is in a position to to forget. We can learn from it. But I'll tell you what. report out to the House. We better be here today debating this. Certainly, we have different philosophical views, but we better want to learn from it so that we can repair this system. Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported The key issue. The Don Wright report — I'm sure progress, was granted leave to sit again. people have read that, taken the time — is a pretty in- depth report. I think there were some concerns ex- Motions without Notice pressed by the teachers. I've gone through it. I don't think it's a hundred percent the way I would do it if I CONTINUATION OF SITTING BEYOND was to write the result, but there are some good things ORDINARY HOUR OF ADJOURNMENT in here. I'm encouraged by the industrial inquiry commis- M. Farnworth: We will be voting against the mo- sion that Mr. Vince Ready will head. I think he's a well- tion. It is a sad, sad day when a government doesn't respected individual in this province. I think he has have the courage of its convictions to do the proper dealt with some very difficult challenges over his in- and democratic thing. They have said: "We want to volvement through his years. I'm looking forward to adjourn the House until 6:35 and continue sitting." what he comes with. Why? What is the urgency? They have said today al- In closing, I'm going to go back again. I would hope ready that the bill that they want to pass…. They do that at the end of the day, the finger-pointing can quit. I not need to deal with the problems that they feel it want some strong debate. I want good philosophical needs to deal with. There are other mechanisms in debate, not personal debate. I'm going to judge not just place. They have admitted that. So rather than take the this piece of legislation, I guess, but this entire issue. time to have proper, thoughtful debate, they are resort- It's over 12 years old now. ing to technicalities, to House procedural moves to be I'm going to judge the success of not having to ever able to ram through, or attempt to ram through, a bill legislate a settlement in this chamber again on behalf of without reasonable considered debate.

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We could adjourn at six like the rules of this House That's why we are using this method — because we intend us to, and we could come back in a week's time have a Speaker whom we have confidence in and who, and pick up debate where we left off. It would be a if the reasons for this bill under section 81 were time for calm, cool heads to prevail, and we could do brought forward, would doubtless rule, though I things the way we're supposed to do. Instead, we're would not mean to prejudge the Chair in any way…. being asked to recess for half an hour, to come back There is a very distinct possibility that the Speaker and to continue speaking on a Thursday evening and could rule against the government, as was done in a to possibly sit until many times, many hours into to- previous ruling by another government who shall re- morrow. It stays Thursday in this chamber forever. main nameless, but I was a part of that government at I suppose there's an upside to that, and that is that that time. The Speaker told us: "Sorry, no. It's not an none of us will age. It will be Thursday forever. You emergency, and you have to go back to the drawing are frozen in time right now. Oh, that's right. I forgot. I board." That Speaker made a ruling, and we had to am too cynical. The government, we are told by many abide by it. people, is doing this because they need a bill rammed Here we are today, and we're not using that time- through. honoured section of parliamentary tradition. We are No, it is the hon. Government House Leader's instead resorting to moving that we adjourn the House birthday, and I guess he wants to stay the same age to 6:35 and that it sit thereafter on a Thursday after- and never age. We wish him happy birthday — all of noon. That's unfortunate, and it's unfortunate for a host us. of reasons. The trouble is in speaking to this motion…. It's not often that I go to written remarks for my speeches, but on this occasion I thought I would go to Interjections. some written remarks about the problems with doing what we're doing this evening. I'm reminded of re-

marks that a member said. I'd ask some forgiveness if Mr. Speaker: Members, we can't hear the member. people see me with the glasses here, because I'm just [1755] getting used to using reading glasses, as unfortunately I can't freeze my birthday. M. Farnworth: The trouble, in speaking to this mo- Anyway, I found some interesting remarks on ad- tion, is that we will continue to age, and birthdays will journment of debate. come. If this is an attempt to stop the aging process, unfortunately, it won't work. However, if it's an at- Hon. M. de Jong: Eloquent. tempt to try and stymie debate and to make people [1800] become cynical about governments again, it has a good opportunity to do that. M. Farnworth: Very eloquent remarks, I might add, You know, there were mechanisms that we could dating back to Wednesday, July 8, 1998. have used — section 81. Section 81 allows, in the con- I'm not pleased to be participating in this debate, probably fines or in the parameters that there is an emergency, no more pleased than members on this side of the House for the House to sit extra hours and for debate to take and, I suspect, hon. members on that side are pleased to place. That has been used in this chamber many times be listening to this debate. But maybe something good before over the decades, over the hundred-and-some- can come of it. Maybe people that are watching or, odd years since Confederation in 1871, and doubtless it heaven forbid, reviewing the record of this debate — will be again. It's used when a government says: "There and I would agree with the author of these remarks on is an emergency. There is an important issue that we that have to deal with, and there's a standing order that — at some point in the future will understand a little bet- allows us to do that." ter how this chamber operates, how this Legislature functions and how it can perhaps be made to function better. But the decision isn't dictated by government fiat, One of the things that people are not often aware of by how many votes are on one side of the House or on is the extent to which members are assisted upon their the other. No, it rests in you, Mr. Speaker. It rests in our arrival here with regulations, guidelines, rules and orders Speaker, whom we have confidence in. The govern- that govern the operation of this place. These are rules ment side makes its case as to why the debate should and regulations that have evolved and arisen over truly continue. The opposition makes its case as to why de- centuries of parliamentary history dating back to the bate should or should not continue. The Speaker goes early days in England, in Westminster, the Mother of all Parliaments. The rules are embodied in a series of docu- and deliberates, consults precedents here in British ments. One of the documents is what we here in British Columbia and in other parliaments throughout the Columbia term our Standing Orders. They are contained Commonwealth and in the traditions of this House, in a little green binder that we find when we arrive here and comes back and makes a decision. The interesting for the very first time on the desks and on the stand in the thing about that is that good Speakers, whom the chamber that we sit in when we're not on our feet en- House has confidence in, make their decision on that gaged in debate. precedent and whether or not something is a true Truly, truly words of someone with some wisdom. emergency and a true issue that needs the hours of the House to be extended. Interjection.

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M. Farnworth: Those, hon. member, are your appropriate back then, and they are very appropriate words, not mine — in more ways than one. today. Anyway, the green book. In closing, I want to say that it is unfortunate that For those who are new here or who wish to understand we are taking this approach. It's a shame that we did how this place functions, they need really to look no fur- not have the opportunity to use Standing Order 81 to ther than that green binder….You need look no further truly put the case of whether this bill is of such urgency than Standing Order 2, and I'm going to read it. It says, that we need to resort to extra sittings and put our con- under "Daily sittings": fidence in our Speaker to make that judgment as tradi- "The time for the ordinary meeting of the House shall, unless otherwise ordered, be as follows: tion and parliamentary practice would call for. Monday: With that, I will once again reiterate that this side of 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. the House will be voting against the motion to extend Tuesday: the sitting until 6:35. Two distinct sittings: 10 a.m. to 12 noon A. Dix: This is indeed a sad and a surprising day. 2 p.m. to 6 p.m." You know, in the 1990s when the Government House Leader spoke those words so eloquently, as he often An Hon. Member: You read well. did in the 1990s, they were different times. There were different responsibilities on government and different M. Farnworth: Thank you, hon. member. I take that responsibilities on opposition. Significant changes have as a compliment, because with these glasses, I now do. been made since then to our standing orders. In a "Thursday: sense, we've provided and given ourselves, as the Two distinct sittings: House, a fixed parliamentary calendar. There are as- 10 a.m. to 12 noon sumptions in that. In the past, in the 1990s when the 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. hon. Government House Leader spoke those words, Friday: 10 a.m. to 1 p.m." opposition had a lot of control over the timing of legis- It's printed on page 9724. I might add, by the way, that lation. The member for Shuswap was there as well. this was in 1998. Since that time, there have been some He'll remember it well. They always used to say that changes, and I would say they are positive changes, in the government opened the session and that the oppo- terms of the sitting days of the House. They make sition closed the session. members' lives more ordered. That's changed now because the members of this It then goes on to enunciate the circumstances un- House have agreed to a fixed calendar. That calendar der which the House can meet on other days. I'll even for this week meant that this session was to end at six read that, because it points to a feature that is embod- o'clock today. The government has introduced legisla- ied in the standing orders. It says: "The House shall tion which is extraordinarily important for British Co- meet on Wednesday if the government has so advised lumbia and for members of this Legislature. the House…." Clearly, members of this Legislature have very dif- That's one of the key things — "has so advised the ferent views about the legislation. I heard the member House." Unfortunately, that has not taken place here for Peace River South speak towards the end of the this evening. This place functions when that happens. debate. He spoke very eloquently. I disagree with him Anyway, here's an important part of those words of fundamentally, but he spoke very eloquently in the wisdom: debate. The majority of members of this House in the Hon. Speaker, when you review the provisions of our regular legislative calendar have not had an opportu- standing orders, it reminds you in a very subtle way that nity to speak in this debate. this is not the government's House. The simple fact that So what does the government do? They cannot we can meet and engage in debate…occurs not because claim this is an emergency because in his rhetoric out- the government wants it to happen or thinks it should happen but because the government has complied with side the House, the Government House Leader has these rules. When they don't comply with these rules, it said it's not an emergency. Instead, what we have, with doesn't happen, and the people's business comes to an all the efforts that all of us have made together…. I give end. The rules that I just referred to also say that the peo- all the credit in the world to people on the government ple's business will come to end, unless other arrange- side who have made some of these changes, working ments are made, at 6 p.m. with us over the past few weeks. What we are left with [1805] is legislation by exhaustion. This is what it's come to in Well, Standing Order 81 would allow us to do that. week three of the House. Unfortunately, this way of doing it makes a mockery of [1810] that. What I get from that is the only reason we are doing They want to drive legislation through, but they this motion is because the government knows the bill is not an emergency, that they're not prepared to wait for will not come clean with their intentions. So instead of proper debate to take its course, but rather they want to the House calendar, the House calendar that every- ram it through and to further inflame situations that may body agreed to in this House…. We all agreed to a or may not occur over the next few days. regular calendar. It has huge advantages for the gov- These words that I have spoken are from my col- ernment that weren't there in previous governments, league the Government House Leader. They were very weren't there in the '70s and the '80s and the '90s, but

592 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 are there now — to have certainty around sessions, to which they want to play and how the game is played have passage of legislation, to have automatic votes. — when it suits them. They want all of that, and they want everything else. They have the authority to do it so that they can This is fundamental legislation for the people of stand up and say: "I'm not breaking a law, but I can do British Columbia. That's why we on this side of the this." Why? Because in this Legislature and the compo- House are going to be opposing this effort to impose sition of this Legislature, the government has the au- legislation by exhaustion with this piece of legislation. thority to use the legislative hammer to hammer de- It is fundamental to us. We think that members of this mocracy in the way in which they want to. So they can House should be able to deal with this legislation un- stand up, all high and mighty, as though somehow der the rules that we together have set. The Govern- they didn't break the rules. ment House Leader is trying an end run around that. [1815] What we are saying today is that we are calling that Let us be very clear. They're not breaking the rules, out. We are saying that is not the way we should oper- because they're changing the rules as they go along and ate in this House. This is a change to the way we oper- making new laws as they go along. I would love to ate, and I think it's a government that wants to have its know how the Attorney General in this House, who is cake and eat it too. Well, that's why we on this side of an ex-judge, feels about that. If every citizen out there the House are going to stand up and vote against legis- acted like this government — changed the law and lation by exhaustion in this case. changed the rules just because it suited their agenda…. We will also, however, be encouraging members on Imagine for a moment in the very debate we're en- the government side of the House to participate fully in gaged in right now around the teachers…. Imagine for any debate that might follow, because I would guess — the very moment that if teachers got to change the rules unless I'm mistaken — that members on the govern- in which the game is played, how would this government side may well vote in favour of the motion. The ment feel? Would they be in a position to stand up to majority? I don't know. The Government House Leader accuse people and point fingers at people? is not sure, but we'll see, and there will be a debate You know what? I, too, heard the member for Peace after that. I can tell the Government House Leader that River South, who spoke very eloquently I might say…. in spite of my objection to legislation by exhaustion, I I even like the member most days. But let me say this. I will be here as long as it takes to debate this important disagree with him fundamentally, and I will go into all legislation. the reasons why I disagree with him fundamentally on the issue around the bill that's before us. J. Kwan: I rise to speak against this motion also. That's not what we're debating. But the issue is this. I'll tell you, Mr. Speaker, that I was here in the last I would hope that the member would see the notion of four years when the government brought forward the hypocrisy and how this government applies that rule new legislative calendar with much fanfare, I might and changed that rule when it suits them. That's what add. The government said: "We are going to be civi- we have before us today. lized. We are going to have a schedule to follow. We The government is sidestepping a fundamental will now know what we're going to do. We will now function of the Speaker, who actually represents all of know how we will plan things, and then we'll move us in this House — to make a judgment on the gov- forward in an unprecedented way." ernment's action, whether or not the government's ac- The government then went on to say we could have tion is on the right track. That is whether or not this is had that, long ago, before the last four years when it an emergency motion, an emergency bill that deserves was put in place. Then they, of course, proceeded to around-the-clock debate. This government took that blame the previous administration for not putting it in away from the very person whom everyone in this place. So we said okay. The government wanted to House has confidence in — that is, the Speaker — to bring in the set legislated calendar with set hours, and make that decision by using yet another trickery of we went with it. But I'll tell you this, Mr. Speaker. rules just because it suits them. Many, many members in this House from the opposite That is the nature of this government, and this gov- side will know that since that set calendar has been ernment says to British Columbians: "Oh, but please brought in place, the government has time and time trust us. We know best." Well, I bet you that they know again overruled its own legislative schedule. what is best. They know what is best when it suits their It didn't matter that there were two members of the political agenda, and that's what we have seen in the opposition in the House at the time or that now, as it last three weeks in this House. stands, there are 33 members in opposition. The gov- The Premier pledges that he would do things dif- ernment will do what they will to suit their own politi- ferently, that he would be civilized. Well, how civilized cal agenda. That's what this motion is about. Let us be is it when the public is turning on the television and clear about that. The government says today — with sees members in this House debating this bill at 3:30 in some indignation, I might add — insinuating about the morning? How civilized is that? Is that democracy? people who may break the law…. Guess what. This Well, as my colleague from Vancouver-Kingsway has government has demonstrated time and time again said, that is legislation by exhaustion. That's what the that when it suits them, they will change the rules by government is hoping for.

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But I'll tell you this, Mr. Speaker. Thank goodness debate and very much obliged to those who chose to there are 33 of us on this side of the House. Every step delve back into the annals of the parliamentary jour- of the way, every single step of the way, our members nals for some wise and sage words from another age. will be here to hold the government to account, even Actually, I must say, members have an intent to pro- with little things like trickeries — trickeries of proce- long the debate. I will make these observations, though. dural rules so that the government can get around pro- By my estimation, 25 or 26 members of the opposition ceedings. have participated in a debate that technically began on Monday and certainly acquired full steam on Tuesday. Interjections. Others will have to judge whether that, and the debate that follows, qualifies as having tried to ram a piece of Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Carry on, mem- legislation through the Legislature. ber. I actually take — and the government does take — very seriously the role that all members of this cham- J. Kwan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ber have in presenting their views, particularly when it The members from the government side may not involves a piece of legislation as fundamentally impor- want to hear this, but they must hear it. They must tant as this one, irrespective of what one's views — hear it, and lessons must be learned. They must actu- support or otherwise — are for the legislation. ally talk to their own current Minister of Labour on the Well, I may not convince my colleagues across the words that he used years before on exactly the kinds of floor, but others will have to decide whether that four tactics that were used. days and the debate that follows qualify as government The government said it was wrong then. Well, how trying to irresponsibly ram debate through. It is true is it not wrong now? Maybe the members can think that…. about that at around four o'clock in the morning as the debate rages on. Maybe they will have sleepless nights C. Evans: Let the Speaker decide that. He's the here in this very Legislature and reflect on the actions best…. of government. The member from Peace River, who spoke so eloquently, waxed eloquent about how people Mr. Speaker: Member. are blaming other people and there are hurt feelings out there. Maybe one will stop and reflect and wonder Hon. M. de Jong: Happily, the member from Cres- why that is. Not everyone is afforded the opportunity ton's intervention has reminded me of one other point that this government has taken for granted and uses that I would otherwise have forgotten to…. liberally whenever it suits them to change the rules of the game, just because they can. J. Kwan: It's an age thing. You know what, Mr. Speaker? It isn't democracy. That's not the way we should conduct ourselves. That's Hon. M. de Jong: Let the member from Creston not how we should do business in this House. We should and I hope it is not a hair thing, hon. member. follow the very same rules that people have set up and It is this. I do actually appreciate the fact that members follow those rules and honour those rules. That's what — some of them new members, in fact — have taken the tradition of the House is about. That's what parliamen- time to study the standing orders and understand the tary practice is about, and that's how we show confidence provisions of Standing Order 81. I am still learning about with British Columbians — that they can trust in us to the application and how some of these things happen, but make these critical decisions on their behalf. I can advise the House that the invocation of Standing [1820] Order 81 would not have precluded the need for this de- I am sad to say I'm a little bit disturbed — actually, bate. The standing orders are the standing orders. Not- quite disturbed — about how the government can just withstanding the invocation of Standing Order 81, we do this so willingly and easily. They do it like it's a would still be having this discussion. walk in the park. I suppose they've walked down that path many a time. But good grief, at some point in time J. Kwan: Different circumstances. someone over there on the horizon may just have some [1825] leadership and some capacity to step up to the plate and say: "For once, we need to do the right thing, and Hon. M. de Jong: The member says, "Different cir- for once, maybe we shouldn't just use our legislative cumstances," and perhaps that is so. Nevertheless, the hammer, the power that we have, just because we're in government is of the view that circumstances are such, government, just because we have the numbers to do particularly in light of some of the commentary that that — to overrule everything democracy depends on." has transpired over the last 24 hours…. There are circumstances unfolding that require this bill to be dealt Mr. Speaker: Government House Leader closes with. We would like to deal with it. At the same time debate. we would like all members to know that their participation in the debate is not only welcome but essential Hon. M. de Jong: Believe it or not, I am obliged to and to understand that there is a significant difference the members who have made their views clear in this of opinion.

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I hope the debate will continue on second reading, Second Reading of Bills and we, and British Columbians who are watching, will have the benefit of seeing that exchange of views. TEACHERS' COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT ACT In the end, they will judge whether a matter of this (continued) critical importance was dealt with responsibly by the government and by the chamber and whether or not [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] the government is in any way, shape or form trying to ram legislation through. That is not our intention, and M. Karagianis: I stand here to speak in opposition we hope the debate will continue. With that, I do move to Bill 12. I must say I am very conscious of the fact that the motion. B.C. is watching us now. That's very evident to me by

the number of e-mails and phone calls that are coming Motion approved on the following division: to me personally and going into my constituency office.

I'm very conscious of the fact that the citizens of B.C. YEAS — 40 are watching us perhaps in a more critical way than ever before. Falcon Reid Ilich What I'd like to talk about here in response to Bill Chong Christensen Les 12 is the value of teachers, because I think that is at the Richmond Bell Bennett heart of the debate here regarding Bill 12. It's very in- van Dongen Roddick Hayer teresting and kind of serendipitous that there was a PBS program on TV last night which talked about the Lee Jarvis Nuraney value of education in America and a program that has Whittred Horning Cantelon been started in response to the poverty and the high Thorpe Oppal de Jong level of illiteracy throughout the U.S., especially in Taylor Bond Hansen communities that seem to be having the most civil un- Abbott Coleman Hogg rest, that have highest levels of crime and that seem to Sultan Hawkins Krueger have the highest levels of impoverished communities. Many of them are ethnic communities. Lekstrom Mayencourt Polak The program went on to basically lay out the qual- Hawes Yap Bloy ity of education as being a key to resolving poverty. I MacKay Black McIntyre think that actually is a very applicable value for us to Rustad think about as well. It seems that everywhere I turn, I see education and the value of teachers flashing in NAYS — 32 front of me as being a really important component of what we need to do here in this House.

I'm a bit of a movie buff. Many years ago I saw a S. Simpson Evans Fleming movie, and there was a quotation in it that I actually Farnworth James Kwan marked down and kept written on my diary for a long Brar B. Simpson Cubberley time. I actually used it as an inspiration. The quotation Hammell Coons Thorne was: "My life was darkness, and then because of you, Simons Puchmayr Gentner in one small corner of endless night, I saw a patch of Routley Fraser Horgan blue." In fact, that quotation was about the inspiration of a teacher. That quotation referred to the spark that Dix Trevena Bains was lit in an individual by an inspiring teacher. Robertson Karagianis Ralston [1905] Krog Austin Chudnovsky The Vision channel right now is actually playing Chouhan Wyse Sather an old movie that has to do with teachers and educa- Macdonald Conroy tion. This movie is from 1955. For anyone who likes lovely, old, quaint movies from that era, Good Morn- Hon. M. de Jong: At the risk of inviting a sub- ing, Miss Dove is the story of a teacher — a rather sequent debate, Mr. Speaker, I'm going to offer to stern teacher, a rather demanding teacher, a teacher all members that the House stand recessed until 7 who had very lofty goals for her students. The story p.m. is about how this teacher's life impacted every single [1830] person in the small town and inspired many of the successful members of that community — taught Motion approved. them strength of character, instilled work ethic in them and in fact caused the entire success of the Mr. Speaker: This House stands recessed until community she lived in. seven o'clock. Another favourite movie of mine — maybe some of the members here might be familiar with this; perhaps The House recessed from 6:31 p.m. to 7:02 p.m. the Attorney General, who I see had a little smile on his

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 595 face with regard to a 1955 film — is a rather famous [1910] film called…. I think, as well, about the teachers in my community that have created extraordinary circumstances for the Interjection. students growing up in Esquimalt. The first one that comes to mind is a teacher by the name of David Flello. M. Karagianis: Oh, good. David actually created what is now an extremely well- It's a famous film called The Corn is Green, which is known program, which is jazz at Esquimalt High School. the story of a teacher who found a way to liberate min- This is a teacher who had the vision and the commitment, ers in Wales. This is actually based on a true and fac- in his personal time and in his personal vision of what tual inspirational story. education should be like, who created a jazz program that Many of these things stick in my memory. They are has become the envy of schools across this country and favourite things of mine that I ponder on, and they're has become a cornerstone in the reputation of Esquimalt. about education. They're about teachers and how the Esquimalt over the years has suffered a reputation value of teachers is so important to crafting our entire because of its relationship to the base — a lot of people life, and how one little flame that's been lit by a teacher coming and going, not a very stable community. It had can change the course of our entire lives. a bit of a down-at-the-heels reputation. But this one When I look back, I think about the teachers in my life teacher gave our children jazz and created a jazz pro- that inspired curiosity and inspired my imagination, gram that became such a drawing card that students which I have used my entire life. Throughout the course from all over the region wanted to go to Esquimalt of my life, even in new situations where I wasn't entirely High School because they wanted to take jazz. sure what to expect, I could imagine, because my teachers A whole generation of young people have enriched had also inspired me to read and to have a curiosity about their lives with music beyond rap, heavy metal and the world around me. I have gone on throughout my life thrash metal and have actually picked up the culture of to live an adventurous and curious life because of those jazz and carried it on. Many of those young people, in teachers. In fact, some of those teachers gave me skills in fact, worked on my campaign. It's always a thrill to go my life that I didn't even know I would use. out and hear them. They are now professional musi- Recently, in doing some home renovations, I ex- cians, some of them moving into the professional plained to my husband the value of a fulcrum in lifting world — all because of one teacher's inspired, creative some heavy objects. He looked at me and said, "How approach to education and the value he brought to the would you know this?" as I'm explaining to him that he system. There is no way that a teacher like that can needs a longer fulcrum in order to lift a heavier load. I ever be rewarded by punitive legislation. said, "My science teacher. Physics in grade 11." I re- Another high school teacher, Marvin Dodds, is teach- membered the laws of physics. ing right now at Esquimalt High. He has inspired so I also had a terrific art teacher who gave me inspi- many students that I was actually quite amazed. My first ration in my soul and gave me an appreciation of art. official duty when I became MLA was to speak at the high That has turned out to be a very significant aspect of school grad. It was a great thrill because a good percent- my character as an adult. age of the graduating class had been people who worked When I think about my children as they've grown on my campaign, most of them in response to high tuition up…. Several of my children have been inspired by fees and the $6 wage. It was a great gift that we all shared exceptional teachers who took exceptional time and with one another, which enlightened and broadened our care with them. I have a son who has a special need, world during the campaign. and he actually had the caring attention of a fabulous It was a great thrill to speak at the graduation cere- teacher in the first years of his schooling. That teacher mony, and I was particularly struck by one thing that stood was very instrumental in giving him the skills and the out among all of the graduation comments. A large per- confidence to have fulfilled himself into being a really centage of that class gave thanks to Mr. Dodds for getting tremendous young man who now works with the spe- there. This was a teacher who had dedicated above and cial needs community. His teacher, Avril Gosling, is a beyond the call of duty. This is a man who had inspired bit of a legend in my family. these students by lunch-hour sessions where they discussed My next daughter went through the same teacher's political science. He got them involved in politics. He got hands and was equally inspired. She began to develop them thinking and feeling and becoming responsible mem- a confidence that was passed on to another one of her bers of society. That's a pretty devoted teacher. That teacher teachers, Bob Belcher, who offered my daughter an does not need to be rewarded with punitive legislation for opportunity to host her first one-woman art show in all of the years of devotion he's had. grade five. Today my daughter is an exceptionally tal- I received a call here 24 hours ago from my oldest ented artist and has graduated from UVic with an art daughter. She said: "Mom, I'm glad you're going to be history degree. Her teacher also inspired her to write there debating this bill, because your oldest grandson and helped publish a novel for her in the same year, in is in a class of 33, and he's having some problems. So grade five. That novel was bound, and she illustrated you get in there and fight for Hunter and for all the it, and to this day we still have her published first kids who are in classes that are too full, that are burn- novel. Those kinds of values that teachers inspire in ing teachers out, that are not allowing teachers to give our students can never, ever be belittled by legislation. them the education they want."

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These are teachers, many of them like the ones I've Now is the time to change that reality. Education is just mentioned, who go above and beyond the call of mainly a provincial responsibility. With this in mind and duty to inspire and to devote a great passion to what out of respect for the incredible contributions made daily by the teachers in this country, I urge each and every pro- they do as teachers. vincial education minister in this land to take up the challenge. Let's make Canadian children the most literate in the [S. Hawkins in the chair.] world. They are, after all, our most precious resource. Isn't it interesting that this sentiment echoes very I have an e-mail here that came to me today, actu- much the philosophy that this government has put for- ally, from one of my local PAC presidents. I'd like to ward about their goals for the children of this province? read it out because I think she kinds of tells the story The reality is that global technologies are changing the from a parent's point of view. This is the PAC presi- world in which we live. Ten and 15 years ago, no one dent at Lampson School. would have imagined that information technology would [1915] be the huge economic driver that it is. In fact, a lot of us, We now have between 30 and 40 children in a classroom instructing our children to go into school, still really relied — literally no breathing room — ten to 15 of them with on the old idea: be a doctor; be a lawyer; get a profession. behavioral or learning challenges, which makes that Did we know to talk our children into: "Hey, get com- count as two children, and a range of levels where each puter literate. Start an IT company"? child is at their own learning level. You have a recipe for In fact, it will be the green technology of tomorrow, disaster and a recipe for burnout for the hard-working, dedicated teachers. No one wins in this situation. and it will develop so fast that you will need to create The school board can identify problems around liter- young people who are able to thrive and think on their acy, numeracy and social responsibility, and create feet and adapt to new industries like that. I know for a strategies to address these problems, but everything will fact that among the members in the House, there are be for naught if the basic structure of the classroom is not probably still a few Luddites that don't feel completely changed. comfortable, maybe, with their computer, definitely How do you teach a child social responsibility with their BlackBerry. I've heard lots of that. when they do not see it applied to themselves in their Yet we have young kids that need to be prepared to world? This parent says: go well beyond that — to take us into the 21st century, not In my considered opinion, the provincial government is us taking them. In fact, the education that we provide — and has been sending a subliminal message to our chil- we as government, we as legislators — to our young peo- dren ever since they started this campaign. The message ple is so incredibly important that it humbles me to think is: you are not worth it. Money is more important than your education, and we do not value you as human be- of the responsibility we have in our hands. ings with the future of the world in your hands. [1920] I think that's pretty tragic for a parent to have to Listen. Other countries are preparing. They're way state about the school system right now. Interestingly ahead of us on this stuff. They're not sitting and dis- enough, history has shown us…. The great wisdom of cussing punitive and draconian legislation about class history has, from the beginning of time, talked about size. They are in fact swinging through the world, pick- the value of education. Diogenes said that the founda- ing out the very best of the education system, taking it tion of every state is the education of its youth. Aris- in, using it up and taking it back to their countries so totle said that all who have meditated on the art of that they can become the new economies, the new governing mankind have been convinced that the fate powers of the world of the future. Our kids need to of empires depends on the education of youth. have the best opportunities — not crowded classrooms, So standing here discussing Bill 12, it defies logic not lack of assistance, not undervalued teachers. It that all of this wisdom about how the youth is, in fact, seems to me to be so logical that in some ways it seems the very key, cornerstone and asset — the prime asset absurd to be standing here speaking the obvious. that we as government need to focus on. Yet we have I read recently a report from Ontario where universi- legislation that has cast our children into unhealthy ties are now crying out about the fact that so many stu- educational environments where teachers are forced dents are coming to them semi-literate. Semi-literate — beyond their capacity and are not valued. the year is 2005. Why is this happening? Because, in fact, I would say at this time that there has never been a we are not putting all of our resources into those precious time when education is more important than it is right minds on the way up. Some of them are coming through now. An article ran here in the Vancouver Sun yesterday, the system, sitting on the sidelines, sitting in the back of in fact, October 5. This is Heather Reisman, who is the the classroom, having to go through the system, be passed CEO of Indigo Books. I'll just read a couple of things that through the system, never quite able to function as highly she says here, because I think they're very pertinent. as they should, while teachers break their hearts at their Society has no greater obligation than to prepare our inability to turn out a brilliant child from each and every young people for success. They will inherit an intensely one of the students that comes through their hands. competitive and challenging world. To be clear, today's under-literate students are tomorrow's underclass, Plato said that the direction in which education doomed to face the challenges of adulthood without the starts a man will determine his future life. I think that's knowledge or self-esteem to thrive. a very useful piece of wisdom that's just as relevant

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 597 today as it was when Plato wrote that before the birth people, and he knew the value of education. JFK said: of Christ. "Let us think of education as the means of developing Listen. I agree with the Liberals — you know, their our greatest abilities, because in each of us there is a great golden goal here or whatever it's called. The first private hope and dream which, fulfilled, can be trans- one: make B.C. the best-educated, most literate jurisdic- lated into benefit for everyone and greater strength to tion on the continent. That's a pretty big statement, and us as a nation." It was a long time ago, over 40 years I agree wholeheartedly with them. That's why it's even ago, that he said that. Yet you know what? It's a very more astounding that government is proceeding to this relevant and truthful thing he said. goal in the way that they are. Is this hypocrisy? Is that I spoke the other day in question period about a what this is? Is this the height of hypocrisy, or is this a teacher who had called me at quarter after seven in the government so disconnected from the goal that they, in morning to talk about her class of 47 students, to talk fact, don't know how to get there? about the fact that she feels the system has let her [Applause.] down and let her children down. She's a very dedi- Thank you. cated teacher who has poured her life and soul and The government says we want to go there — right? heart into teaching children and is so frustrated with We want the best-educated young people in the world, on trying to get a grip on a large class like that — impart the continent. But everything they have done in the past any kind of wisdom, inspire anything in these children, four years has gone completely against that. They have light those sparks, keep those little fires lit so that they reduced resources. They have overcrowded classrooms. can ignite into creative and productive human beings They have, through a bit of a sham game, turned respon- — that she's ready to give up on the system. sibility over to school districts who have not been given She said many of her friends are ready to give up enough money. Frankly, I think it's shameful that we on the system because they feel the system has given would squander our children's future in this way. up on them. You know what, my friends? That is our We are charged with caring for the assets of this responsibility in this House. Because of the way we province, and lots of discussion goes on in this cham- have treated the education system and the kind of leg- ber about oil and gas, forestry and fish, tourism and all islative decisions that are being made right now with the great assets that produce money. But we're missing Bill 12, we are creating this undervalued situation. the boat. Our foremost asset is our children. Their edu- In all of the arguments that have taken place here cation and their opportunities are, in fact, our future. and in the debate over the last number of days, we talk Oil and gas — we all know that at some point that about dollars. We talk about large amounts of money, is going to change. Our futures there are going to dollars cut from the system, dollars replaced into the change. Forestry is changing. Fisheries are changing. system. We'll debate back and forth. Was it enough? All of these things are changing, and yet our best and Was it too much? Have we done better than the previ- biggest asset is here, stable, requiring only sensible ous government? In fact, all those big numbers are legislation, sensible judgment and sensible resources to really meaningless out there to the children who are the education system to keep it there for the rest of our sitting in crowded classrooms. lives — in fact, to provide for our lives. They could care less if it's $150 million or $130 million [1925] or a billion dollars. What they know is that their class- All of us are going to be retired and living off what room is crowded, that their teacher cannot get to them our next generation, which we're producing, puts into and that the system is letting them down. I think the pri- the system. That will in fact fund our pensions, our old mary things here that I am getting from all of the corre- age security, our care, our health care — all of those spondence that's coming to me from families in my riding things that look after us. and families all over British Columbia is that they feel government has not delivered on what they promised. Interjection. I go back to these lofty goals that government has laid out for themselves and reminds us constantly of. I M. Karagianis: We get CPP. look at all of them, and you know, they're real big All of that will be on the backs of the next genera- shiny words — all of them. They're really excellent tion. In fact, as we continue to diminish the quality of goals. It's like Mom's apple pie. I don't think anybody education and diminish its value, we're turning our- will disagree with them. I've sat around municipal selves over. The fate of our future is being toyed with councils long enough to know that you create strategic by our own lack of vision and lack of commitment to plans and create vision statements, and you spend a lot those resources. This government's preoccupation with of time doing that. I'm betting the government spent a privatization, with selling off public assets, seems to lot of time coming up with these lofty goals — goals have clouded and overshadowed our real responsibil- that all British Columbians read over the past number ity here, and that's to care for our citizens and to care of months and said: "Wow. Yes, that's exactly the kind for those resources. of province we want to create for ourselves." John F. Kennedy was killed the year I was 13 — [1930] November 22, 1963. I remember it very, very clearly. Yet so many of the things that have occurred over Despite the stories that came out afterwards, he was an the past four years, so many of the things that have individual who inspired more than a generation of occurred over the past few weeks, and in fact the very

598 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 nature of this bill, defy everything that's written in In the spirit of that thanks and at the risk of offend- here. I guess I have to say: how do I look my constitu- ing the authorities here, I brought an apple in here — a ents in the eye? How do any of us go home and look symbol of my thanks to the teachers of this province, our constituents in the eye and say: "Yeah, we're doing the teachers who raised me. I'm not going to eat this these great and wonderful things here in the Legisla- apple. Don't worry. It's a fresh…. ture"? Gosh, this is actually only my 12th day here, and Deputy Speaker: Member, we don't use props in already my sense of shame over what is happening to the chamber. the education system here before my very eyes, right here in my hands…. It saddens me. I waited a lot of G. Robertson: It's an apple grown by Martin Rothe years to get here, to represent the children and parents and his family in B.C., on an organic farm — a symbol and families in my community that work very hard of my appreciation and thanks. every day of their lives to contribute to this economy. I want to talk for a second about what the govern- Some of them struggle to do that, but every single one ment, on this bill, deems the explanatory note. The of them wants the same thing for their kids that I explanatory note reads: "This bill settles the dispute" — wanted for my kids and that most of you want for your and I'll come back to this word — "between the British kids. Columbia Teachers Federation and the British Colum- Yet if we are truly going to meet these lofty goals, bia Public School Employers Association and provides then we really do need to rethink the logic and the for the constitution of a collective agreement between common sense behind how we are doing it, because in the parties." fact what we're doing here makes no sense at all. We Well, by my interpretation, there is no settling go- have thousands of teachers right now watching out ing on here. We have the opposite of settling right now. there, listening to us, weighing up what both sides of I come from the juice business most recently, where we the House are doing and saying, and our commitment use the apples of our teachers' eyes, and we do any- to them. They worked very hard to keep up the level of thing but settle. We blend them up, and everything education in this province despite cutbacks, despite goes crazy. Settling is when you let everything mellow changing attitudes about them, despite the rhetoric and out; cooler heads can prevail. This isn't about settling. the arguments that go on. There are schools being shut What we're going to see around this province to- down. Their entire quality of volunteerism is coming morrow is not about settling. I take great issue with the under criticism. Frankly, shame on all of us. They de- choice of words — not only the name of this act but the serve much better. explanatory note and how this government has chosen, ironically, to use words that don't mean anything, to G. Robertson: I rise to debate the second reading of use words that in fact mean the opposite of what their Bill 12. Some of my colleagues have pointed out the actions are. My colleague the member for Esquimalt- irony of the name of this bill, Teachers' Collective Metchosin spoke aptly, I think, about the use of words Agreement Act, and the fact that none of those four and the misuse of words in the five great goals of the words apply in any respect to teachers. government of this province and how far off the mark I want to start tonight by thanking all of the teach- they really are. ers that got me here — all of my teachers through my This bill, the explanatory note for this bill and all youth, through my formative years, who inspired me, the goals that it's supposed to feed into are wrong- who motivated me, who raised me up good. I owe headed. They're the wrong words. I fundamentally them a huge, huge gratitude, and I'm thankful to be disagree with that. standing here today on their behalf as well. This is no settlement. Let's be clear about it. This is I want to thank all the teachers in my community an impasse. The Liberal government is the architect of — teachers who supported me, who helped me to be this impasse. Blame the teachers all they like, but the elected to this honourable office. I owe them my great blame is clear, Madam Speaker. With the changes to thanks. I appreciate all the help that they've been, and I the School Act in 2002 and the imposition of a contract appreciate all the work that they do in my community. that nobody wanted then, this government created this My community has seven elementary schools with impasse. teachers at General Wolfe, Emily Carr, Edith Cavell, This government took the single most important Simon Fraser, L'Ecole Bilingue and False Creek Ele- issues away from teachers by taking them off the bar- mentary. These are outstanding schools in the city of gaining table. They took class size and composition Vancouver that really set the bar very high in this prov- away from teachers. They took teachers ratios away ince, and indeed around this world, for what kind of from teachers. Teachers have been fighting to win these education we want for our kids. things to protect our kids in the classroom, fighting for [1935] the quality of our kids' education. Countless studies Those teachers make it happen there, and my heart prove that class size matters to learning outcomes. I goes out to them for the action that they're taking — assume this is why the Liberal government thought it really against their own will. I support so much of was important enough to put this in the School Act, what they do for my children and my neighbours' chil- this notion of class size. But even the Wright report dren all around our community. My thanks to them. says the process was careless.

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They put class size in the School Act, but they made of thousands of British Columbians trying to bargain no provision to make sure that the guidelines were collective agreements, to the extent that countless local, followed. For some grades of school there are no class national and international labour organizations have sizes. Talk to the school boards around this province condemned this government for its blatant disregard about whether class sizes can be maintained under the for fair and honest collective bargaining. average dictated. In this province we have classes with Is this government proud of its record? Is it proud four special needs students, 20 ESL students, and no of the black mark on B.C. internationally for its disre- extra help because the government cut funding for gard for fair collective bargaining? I certainly hope not. educational assistance. The hon. member opposite has suggested by this This proposed legislation, Bill 12, is uncalled for legislation that this bill is the only option to fix the and has now inflamed the situation. The government mess the government has made of negotiations. "Here's has no intention of settling this dispute. Teachers have the solution. This will settle it." The government has been willing to bargain all along. They met with the other options. Let's be real here. shell employer, council, set up by this government 35 Basically, the government has three options in ne- times — 35 times showed up in good faith. They wrote gotiating with its public educators. First — don't jump to BCPSEA after the fact-finder's report came down, too quickly on this — they can take an adversarial ap- saying they were still willing to meet. proach by instructing the BCPSEA, the British Colum- [1940] bia Public School Employers Association, to demand They have been trying since May to meet with the teacher concessions at the bargaining table. I'm sur- Premier, who incidentally broke his promise to meet prised that hasn't happened yet. They have taken this with teachers and resolve this matter. Apparently the approach, tying the employer's hands with a narrow kids, the parents and the teachers of this province and unreasonable bargaining mandate that has left no aren't important enough for the Premier to meet with. room for constructive negotiation or compromise. The teachers were saying until the last minute that The second option here is that they can take a legis- they were willing to discuss class sizes for our kids lative approach by imposing compensation and work- with either the employer — the Public School Employ- ing conditions unilaterally through legislation. We've ers Association, which really has no power…. The fact- seen this before. Several days ago the government finder and Don Wright say that it has no money the chose to take this approach by proposing Bill 12 and government doesn't give to them; in effect, it's a power- arguing that it has no other choice. less body. They were willing to discuss these things [1945] with the government. It is the government who is not But the government does have another choice. playing ball here. There is a third way. They can take a cooperative ap- This is the government that, despite its claims of a proach to the labour relations process. What a notion bright golden decade…. None of that gold is destined — cooperation. They can operate openly and suppor- for the people who raise our kids every day. This gov- tively, meeting with the B.C. Teachers Federation rep- ernment announces $150 million for schools at every resentatives directly, establishing the extent of the opportunity they can, after they close more than 100 problems and challenges facing our education system, schools. Where's the math there? This government has and jointly attempting to resolve those problems and cut school funding back so much that districts like overcome those challenges. We can all be grownups Vancouver, where I live, are forced to raise $680,000 here. from parent fundraising. Some school districts are un- This type of constructive, cooperative approach has able to raise money from parent fundraising, and those been taken by New Democratic governments in B.C. It school districts pay the price. Those kids pay the price. has been used in other provinces such as Ontario. The current Liberal government has the option to take this An Hon. Member: So much for equity. approach. This government has chosen to be confrontational. It has chosen to work against teachers instead of G. Robertson: So much for equity. working with them. It has chosen to work against par- There are all kinds of solutions. I want to move to ents and against children instead of working with solutions for a minute, Madam Speaker, for this gov- them. This government is not creative and supportive ernment's impasse. Mr. Connolly's report points to enough to use the process properly and negotiate. solutions. Meet with teachers; start with that. Involve I want to just ask a rhetorical question here. Why other stakeholders. For all the rhetoric, we have not was there no progress at the bargaining table to date? heard anything about parents. Have parents been in- Teachers bargain with BCPSEA — the bargaining agent volved in this? No. Actually allow negotiations — Mr. for the school districts in B.C., the lone bargaining Connolly again — instead of panicking at the first sign agent. The government controls the mandate that of trouble and intervening. Actually allow negotiations. BCPSEA operates under very tightly. BCPSEA has This government has a foul history of intervening made it clear that they do not have the resources or the and not allowing negotiation to take place. They are mandate to address the issues that are paramount to the contract-rippers. These are legislators, and they teachers: learning conditions and a salary increase. The take that a little too seriously. They legislate before government and BCPSEA have stated that teachers talking. This government has interfered with the rights must accept the net zero mandate and the fact that they

600 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 are not allowed to bargain learning and working condi- impact of the ads that this government ran on Monday tions. was like a body blow to the teachers of this province. I want to talk about this net zero mandate, because Everyone opening the paper, seeing those ads with I think it flies in the face…. Nothing is lost — the detail partisan rhetoric, did the math — it wasn't complicated is not lost — on the people of this province when you — and figured out that those ads were written and say to hundreds of thousands of British Columbians: placed before the fact-finder even came back on Friday "That's what you get: zero-zero-zero." last. When you combine the deterioration of resources "Oh, and over here, fine corporations doing busi- and the passion, when you demoralize teachers in this ness in British Columbia: you get a 12 percent increase way, you doom our education system. that you weren't bargaining for. We're giving it to you This government says they want to ensure that kids anyway. You guys, zero- zero-zero." are in the classrooms. What kind of classrooms are you Corporations — this was last week — get a 12 per- talking about? What kind of classrooms result from cent gain this year, $143 million a year now, and every- demoralized teachers who have had enough? I'm a one else in B.C. gets zero-zero-and-zero. parent. I have three kids. Do I want my kids to go into The government has told teachers to bargain at the a classroom and endure whatever they face there, from table with BCPSEA but has laid out a mandate that whoever ends up showing up to do the work of the dooms this bargaining to failure. The government has teachers? That's not right. That's not investing in our said that it cannot interfere in bargaining between kids. That's not investing in our future. That's not being BCPSEA and the BCTF, yet it has repeatedly run inter- the most well-educated and literate jurisdiction on the ference in the bargaining, in public and in the press, continent. If you really want to put kids first, deal with saying that a deal can't get done. class composition and class sizes first. If you really Well, again I come to how the situation gets re- want to put kids first… solved. I talked about the options. It's all about the government taking the opportunity to sit down with Deputy Speaker: Through the Chair, member. the teachers directly and come up with a workable process — not force them back to work under the same conditions that were unacceptable and hope for the G. Robertson: …Madam Speaker, make the changes best in the months ahead, but sit down now and work that parents and teachers have been calling for, for years it out. This has been the teachers' request of govern- on class composition. But deal with pay equity. Make ment all along, and it remains so. Parent and public sure the teachers are paid commensurate with their support is solidly behind the teachers' goal to achieve a peers in other provinces. This has to be addressed. It's negotiated resolution. I've been hearing this for days. not rocket science. Pay equity for teachers in this country That's a solution that meets our students' needs and needs to be achieved here, or the teachers will go else- — that provides teachers with a salary increase. where where they're wanted, where they're needed, Four years of legislation aimed at teachers and the where they're respected, where they're paid well. public education system has only resulted in more in- For teachers to put their spark, to put their passion, stability in the education system, worsening conditions to put their commitment into our kids…. That's what in schools and a negative climate in school districts. It's makes our schools what they are today. When you dis- time for the government to problem-solve, not to legis- respect and demoralize these teachers, you put out the late more problems. spark. You snuff it. Madam Speaker, you tear the heart Let's be really clear here with some facts and some and soul right out of our schools. numbers about what this government has done to edu- [1955] cation over these four years. This Liberal government I want to just read a little note here from the Van- reduced the number of teachers by 7.7 percent. Enrol- couver school board. The school trustees issued a press ment declined by only 3 percent. That's a lot more release several days ago, and probably a lot of people teachers gone than students. It laments the decline in haven't seen it. The media wasn't as eager to pick it up the number of special education teachers — 17.5 per- as they should have been. I want to pass this along so cent of special ed teachers gone. Teacher-librarians. As that everyone knows that school trustees, who in years many of my colleagues have pointed out, 23.4 percent past have negotiated with teachers more directly, cer- of the teacher-librarians were cut. English-as-a-second- tainly negotiate with a lot of the other employees in the language teachers — one in five gone. It maintains that school district — successfully, I might add. the closure of 113 schools was necessary and war- "Vancouver School Trustees Disappointed with Legisla- ranted. tion." Legislation to extend the current collective agree- [1950] ment of B.C. teachers is contrary to long-term stability in Enough of the numbers, though the numbers do public education, say trustees of the Vancouver school board. speak the truth. I'm standing up here for teachers. "The best interests of our students are not met when Their passion and inspiration are really what sustains legislated solutions are imposed," says Allan Wong, Van- the system and what makes it exceptional. When you couver school board vice-chairperson. "Government in- disrespect and demoralize the teachers, you lose those tervention is contrary to what we have been seeking, and people. They take their passion and their talents else- it adversely affects long-term stability of the public edu- where, and they pull the heart out of the system. The cation system."

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The board had earlier called on the provincial gov- becoming master teachers with 20-plus quality years to ernment to find a settlement through respectful and pro- give to kids now — will give up. They'll move on. Their ductive labour relations. "We have worked hard to re- teaching careers have been laden with labour disputes establish the relationships that were damaged by past progressively worse and worse in a downward spiral imposed settlements," says Wong. "The morale of those under this government. working directly with and for our students, our teachers, That is from a teacher in West Vancouver. has suffered significantly." The amount of communication that I've had from These are strong words for a school board — very, very parents in my community, from teachers in my commu- courageous words. nity, from teachers around the province — who are very, Allan Wong notes that settlements have been im- very disappointed in this government and the actions it's posed on teachers for more than ten years. He says: taking, legislating the teachers back to work — is un- "It's time for that to stop and for teachers to have the precedented — the phone calls, the e-mails, the letters. right to reach a freely negotiated collective agreement Morale is at an all-time low, and the times are tough. with the employer bargaining agent." [2000] The Vancouver school board has worked tirelessly I don't see in the faces of the government benches to try and make the situation better in Vancouver in the across from me a whole lot of concern for the teachers schools that my children attend, in the schools in the and the parents and the kids of B.C. and what they're community that I represent. They deserve full kudos going to go through starting tomorrow morning. I and praise for the work that they've done. They're at don't see a whole lot of concern. I don't see them stand- the breaking point. When you have school trustees at ing up to speak to this bill and saying: "You know, the breaking point, when you have the administrations, maybe this isn't the right direction. Maybe this isn't when you have the teachers, when you have the par- what we should be doing. Maybe we should be valuing ents all at the breaking point, maybe the approach is the teachers and the parents and the students of this wrong. Maybe it's time to rethink the approach. Maybe province. Maybe we should be building the most- it's time not to legislate Bill 12 and to take a more coop- educated and literate jurisdiction in North America. erative approach. Didn't we say that's what we were going to do? Isn't I'd like to read from a teacher who wrote some very that what we're committed to? Isn't that our vision?" moving words to me yesterday, and this is a teacher Back your vision up with actions. It's not difficult. named Natalie Pritchard. She says: These actions are actually very straightforward, and We have an aging teacher population and a system that they involve clear communication, cooperation and a needs to attract talented young people. How are we going to do that with declining salaries for teachers com- willingness to find solutions. pared to other sectors and provinces? I am worried that I beseech this government to reconsider the legisla- my government could legislate a contract that is zero- tion that they're putting forward, to reconsider the im- zero-zero, no-no-no-and-zero. What does this say about pact that it's going to have — in fact, that it's already valuing public education and also seeing the bigger pic- had — in destabilizing our educational system and ture in terms of attracting young talent to the teaching destabilizing the trust right through the system and the profession? impact that it's going to have around this province, What a question. I wonder if the government has an starting tomorrow morning and running in perpetuity answer to that question. How are they attracting young until this is dealt with, until there is a spirit of respect talent to our schools? How are they attracting the peo- and cooperation, until there is a willingness to work ple who will teach the children of this province, who together to find the solutions. will build the economy of our future, who will build In closing, I want to harken back to my days in the communities of our future? How is this accom- school in North Vancouver, where I graduated from plished with this legislation? It's not, simply stated. high school, and the teachers there who I know treas- I'll read from another teacher. This is a teacher I ured every moment of their hours spent with students, know well, because he's my brother — Patrick Robert- with me in the classroom, with me on the rugby field, son. He teaches in the riding of the member for West with me on the stage where the band rehearsed and Vancouver–Garibaldi. He teaches at Westcot Elemen- played. A lot of those things have been taken away. A tary. Patrick says about teachers in West Vancouver: lot of those things don't exist anymore. The support for They're more moderate, one of the most moderate in the music, in particular, and for the arts in those schools is province, but we've been pushed beyond the breaking point. This is a district in West Van that's been able to a fraction of what it was when I was so fortunate to cushion itself from the cuts because of international stu- have that support. The teachers were so fortunate to dent revenues and the hard work of senior administra- have that support entrusted to them by the govern- tors, but it's cut to the bone and only getting worse. Even ment of this province. in a district that's been cushioned from the savage blows, Again, this is about trust. This is about valuing. teachers are now fighting mad. This is about valuing our future, valuing our kids, It's remarkable to see how low morale can go and valuing the people that raise and take care of our kids. how much faith has been lost. How can the government Invest in these teachers; invest in our kids. allow morale to go this low? It creates a breeding ground for all kinds of contempt and bitterness. To disrespect us is bad enough. To drive morale to lifetime lows is uncon- S. Hammell: I'm very pleased to have the opportu- scionable. Many teachers who are entering their prime — nity to rise to speak to this bill, because public educa-

602 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 tion is a fundamental service that the provincial level of public, non-sectarian education based on the principle government delivers on behalf of citizens of this prov- of opportunity — of equality of opportunity — and ince. When the separation of powers was discussed both gained public support for their positions. among the architects of our country, they decided that When the Common School Act became law on Van- the province was the best vehicle to effectively deliver couver Island, Amor de Cosmos, one of our Premiers education to our children. Therefore, in the context of — he became our Premier and was the editor of the this debate, it is instructive to look back at the history Colonist — wrote: "We are not deposed to cavil at the of the public education system in our province. So in imperfections of the bill so long as the two great prin- my remarks I will draw directly and often to a Royal ciples, free schools and a non-sectarian system of edu- British Columbia Museum publication called the British cation, are enunciated." And so came our public school Columbia Education History Project of 1993. system. [2005] However, there was a glitch in the meantime, be- When Vancouver Island was declared a colony in cause Governor Seymour refused to support the public 1849, James Douglas, the chief factor of the Hudson's schools and withheld funding. At that time many Bay Company, invited the Reverend Robert Staines, a schools closed, and they closed up to 1869, when an- Church of England minister, to become both the com- other bill, the Common School Ordinance, was brought pany chaplain and the schoolmaster to the children of forward. The public schools again flourished. the company officers. Shortly after his arrival, the Ob- In 1872 the Public School Act provided for educa- late mission delegated Father Honoré Timothy Lemp- tion from the general revenues of the province and frit to teach the children of Roman Catholic parents. allowed the government to appoint a board of educa- As settlers arrived, Douglas supported other tion and a superintendent. The object of the act was "to schools, most of which charged fees. Girls could be sent give every child in the province such knowledge as to a school for young ladies, but if parents could not will fit him to become a useful and intelligent citizen in afford it, girls stayed home. So the first schools were years after." delivered by the religious institutions that were active [2010] and established in the colony. I labour through this just to make clear that our Few of the textbooks from that time have survived, education system has grown over time from a com- as the books were made out of cheap materials, and mitment of the leadership of this province to provide a other things simply wore out. As we all know, the free, universal public education system, because they schools were sparsely furnished, and education sup- felt strongly that this was the best system for the citi- plies were considered a luxury in an economy with zens of our province. little cash. Things were handed down from parent to They knew they had to "give every child in the children and to younger children. The teachers at the province such knowledge as will fit him to become a colonial school in Nanaimo noted several times in the useful and intelligent citizen in the years after." register that a student was not attending school be- Over time the curriculum changed and grew. The cause his or her parents could not afford to purchase teachers grew stronger in number, and eventually the the reader. school districts organized so that we had what we have Now in our schools in some cases, students do now: a universal, free education system. hand down textbooks from student to student, and in Now that system is centralized yet localized, with some of our schools now, we don't even have enough school districts disbursing the money given to them by textbooks for the students in a classroom at the school. the provincial government. That is actually a fairly We also have situations, and it has been mentioned in recent phenomenon, because in the '80s the power to the House before, where students cannot attend a class impose taxes by school districts was removed. The because they cannot afford the extra costs the parents funding then moved to the provincial government. are expected to cover so that the child can take the Regardless of that, what the past leaders of our class. province have clearly understood is that a quality, But I do digress. I'll go back just a bit to the history. universal public education was one of the primary In 1858 new settlers poured in, and the private and responsibilities of the provincial government. They Methodist churches set up schools in competition with understood that they needed to give that child the the Church of England and the Catholic school sys- knowledge that will fit him to become a useful and tems. It is possible that the competition for students in intelligent citizen in years after. That's because a the fledgling city of Victoria contributed to a willing- strong, vibrant democracy demands a quality, public ness to adopt new subjects and set high standards. In a education system. letter in 1859, Bishop Demers says the parents of the One of the major responsibilities we have as an children want to learn music: "Can we deny them this electorate and as citizens of our country is that we have request? We must be up to date, and we must follow to choose the government that serves us. To be intelli- the trends." gent and to make good choices, we need to have an By the mid-1860s, there was strong support for free educated population. A democracy allows us that free- common schools. The argument was led by the editors dom. It allows us the freedom to choose, and we of the two leading newspapers on Vancouver Island choose who govern us from our neighbours, our and in New Westminster. Both men advocated free, friends and our families. We must choose wisely to

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 603 ensure that our country is governed well. Peace, order cause there is none at the school. One child is devel- and good government are what our country is based opmentally delayed, and two children have ESL. I am on. It requires an educated population. talking about 20 kids in a classroom, and seven of them But a strong economy also demands a quality, uni- have some very special needs that need some kind of versal public education system. We cannot nor should assistance and support. There is also a child in the we rely on importing our professionals, entrepreneurs classroom who's lost a parent and is very needy as a and tradespersons from other industrialized countries consequence — needs a lot of attention. or from developing countries. Our children need to be Another classroom that I can describe has 28 stu- educated so that they can compete for the jobs in the dents. One of those students is epileptic. Another has future, and those jobs are becoming increasingly de- Asperger's, which is a form of autism. That child is manding, with over 50 percent of those jobs requiring aware of his condition and is actually able to articulate some post-secondary education. the fact that he cannot control his anger at times but is A strong economy also needs to replace the people aware that that's a problem. There is another child that that are leaving. We in this country or in this province is ADHD, gifted. That is attention deficit hyperactivity have a wonderful environment, but to be a strong disorder. There is another child that is just ADD, which economy in the future, we also need that strong, capa- is attention deficit disorder. There is a learning dis- ble workforce. We all know there is a demographic abled child who was born with a cocaine addiction and bulge leaving the workforce. This bulge is positioned to has low coping skills. leave in the next few years, and we need to replace In this same classroom there is a child who is a mu- ourselves with well-educated and literate young peo- sical prodigy, gifted and very bright, not necessarily ple who are prepared to support this bulge through a someone that needs particular special support but who productive work ethic. certainly needs a teacher that has enough time to meet All of us need a strong education system that is the individual needs of that child. There's another child developing that strong student who is prepared to step in this classroom who is organizationally challenged, out into the workforce. Who have we asked to be the who is very gifted in art but who has great difficulty guardians of this education system? We have teachers keeping generally organized and has trouble with that we have entrusted with the task of delivering these classroom routines. citizens in our future. We expect them to teach the ba- [2020] sics and more. There's another child with hearing problems and [2015] another child who possibly has an eating disorder. I can go back into history and show you, as we Then there are two ESL students. All of these children added and added more and more tasks and expected are in one classroom of 28. our teachers to take on each task we asked them…. Not only that, we expect our teachers to have their students Now, there is an issue with our teachers over the meet or exceed every single benchmark we put in front composition of classrooms. You cannot have a split of them. To boot, we expect our teachers to volunteer grade with eight to ten particular children that need their time for extracurricular activities. special attention. You cannot ask teachers to do that; it We, as parents of these children, want the best for is over the top. They cannot do it. You must deal with our children, and we know that good teachers will de- class size. If a system is going to be created that meets liver the best. We want them to teach the skills to our the needs of our children, it has to hold at its core class children so that our children will be successful in life. size. We want our children to be the very best that they can You cannot mainstream the children of this prov- be and realize their full potential. We want our teachers ince, which everyone has agreed we should do…. We to help deliver. do not believe in a system that segregates and ghetto- Let me describe to you what those teachers are fac- izes or isolates the children of this province. We are all ing every day of the week, hon. Speaker. I have a sister in this together. Our classrooms have every single one that's a teacher. I have a mother that was a teacher. I of us — every shape, different size, every character you have a sister-in-law that is a teacher. Let me talk to you can believe — in our classrooms. We must give the about some of the situations that teachers in general teachers the support they need to deliver education find themselves in. There is a grades one-two class- effectively to these children, and you cannot do it with room in Surrey. They have eight students in grade one large class sizes. and 12 students in grade two. In grade two, one of I think that every single one of our children in our those children is reading a novel. They are in grade province is special. There is not one of them that two, and they can read. Another one of those children doesn't have individual differences that we as legisla- cannot read at all and is extremely dependent on the tors and the educators in our classroom…. There is not teacher. That is just in the grade two classroom. one of them that doesn't need special attention. They In the grade one classroom, they have a child who need individual attention, but they cannot get individ- needs a care worker because that child has social be- ual attention when you start having class sizes that haviour that needs assistance. Also in that classroom is start moving up into the 28s, the 30s, the 33s, the 35s, a child who needs a counsellor, who had counselling the 36s. It is not good enough for us here in this House last year but is currently not getting counselling be- to abdicate our responsibility and say: "We don't have

604 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 any responsibility for what the class size is in the class- ball has been over in that court for five years. It's the room. We give that over to someone else." responsibility of the government to come to some kind Class sizes are our responsibility. If we are going to of resolution with the teachers. have small class sizes to meet the individual needs of You know what? If we were in the private sector, the children in this province, we have to make sure that you don't get to bring a bill in and bang, you got a set- they are funded, and the funding comes from the pro- tlement. The only place you can do that is in the public vincial government. This chamber took away the right sector. I just don't think it's on. It's not good enough. of school boards to tax the taxpayers in their school We can resolve confrontation with skill and persis- districts. We took it away — we in this chamber — and tence. therefore we in this chamber are responsible for fund- I could not leave this without saying that I was ing the education system. around in the '90s. What I know is that teachers made a If we looked into a perfect classroom, we would see sacrifice to get smaller class sizes. Do you know what? a teacher who is able to cope with the individual dif- I talk to my sister, and what can I say? In the '90s she ferences of the children within his or her classroom. I made the choice that they would go with class sizes did spend 15 — I think it was around 15 — years of my rather than a high or a strong wage increase. In fact, I life in a classroom. I can tell you that one of the most think they took zero-zero-and-zero. The trade-off, the critical factors in a classroom is that there are bumps. quid pro quo, was that they got smaller class sizes. As a teacher, you are never away from the needs of That's how strongly teachers believe in smaller class these students — the voices, the touching and the need sizes. They know the benefit. for them to have your attention to meet their needs. In 2005 they are in a lose-lose. They were stripped of Teachers do a very, very special job that many of us their ability to bargain class size. They got reduced sup- could not and would not do for a long, long period of port for the class sizes as they went up, and they didn't get time. If they are going to develop those citizens that we a wage increase. I don't think that's quite fair. I think they agree we all need, we have to give them the resources came to the table. They were willing to make a sacrifice on to do their job and to do it well. behalf of the students of our schools — our future citizens [2025] — and that sacrifice was not respected. Another area that I just find extremely distressing [2030] when we talk about the school system…. To be quite Now we're at 2005, and we're saying in this House: frank, it distresses me that one of the great goals is to be "Go bargain." I've heard time and time again that the best-educated and the most literate society, and we they've been to the bargaining table 35 times, but I'm have the system in our schools where we have libraries not quite sure what they can bargain. They cannot bar- that are closed up to 50 percent of the time. When I taught, gain working conditions. I mean, whoever heard that we had a library that was available to our students all the you cannot bargain working conditions? Only in the time. You could send your child down to the library to get public sector. Nowhere else would you be able to say books. They could be sent down to the library to do a to a bargaining unit: "I'm sorry, you can't. That's off the novel study. They could be sent to the library to be taught. table." Only when you have the hammer of bringing in They could borrow books constantly. a bill. It's easy. Bang — there's a bill. Hon. Speaker, our libraries are black. The lights You can't bargain your working conditions. Fair aren't on. Half the time the libraries are closed. They enough; you can't bargain working conditions. You know are closed. If we genuinely want to — and I think we what else you can't bargain? You can't bargain your do; I think every person in this House wants to — en- wages. Now, we have 35 meetings. I don't know what sure that our children are the best that they can be, we they talked about. Maybe they kept asking: can we bar- have to have librarians. gain working conditions? No. Can we bargain wages? No. You know, I've always said to students that if they I'm not exactly sure what they could have bargained. want to read well, they've got to practise. It's no differ- As I think about the situation, it seems to me the ent than going out and playing soccer or baseball, or bottom line here is that in all of this, we make choices. any other skill. Once you've learned the basics, you've A democracy requires that we do make choices, and got to get in there and practise. Therefore, you need to what the government side has chosen to do is give the have books. If you want a literate society, you have to corporations a tax break. What we've decided to do on have the students surrounded by and able to get books this side of the House is say that you need to revisit…. whenever they can. To close our libraries, to reduce our You need to go back to the table with the teachers of librarians is unacceptable. If we want a system that our province, because they are the ones who have the serves our kids, we fix it. future in their hands. They are the ones that look after To kind of try to close this off, I want to touch on or our children. They are the ones that teach our children, think about it from the point of view of the teachers. I and they are the ones that we are deeply indebted to as understand that it's easy to blame, and it's easy to point we look forward to our future. the finger and say who's at fault or to blame out or to do whatever we do when we don't want to assume [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] some kind of responsibility. But the ball is in the government's court. The government has the power to I'm pleased to have had the opportunity to speak to come to some kind of resolution of this dispute. This this bill. But I have to say that I'm deeply disappointed

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 605 that we're not in this House talking with our teachers it's a military term. The damage is there, but you don't and getting back to the bargaining table to come up see it. It is the innocent ones that get hurt. with an agreement that we can all live with. I would suggest that members opposite talk to I know it's tough. Negotiations are never easy. counsellors in schools, if they are still funded in your There's all kinds of history. But the teachers of our school district, and hear about the grade sevens who province deserve our respect, and they deserve to hear have depression and are suicidal because of the pres- that we value what they do. They deserve to hear us sures of overcrowded classrooms. Or maybe the mem- say that we're there and willing to negotiate with you. bers opposite would like to talk to kids trying to get into university, who don't get the academic attention C. Trevena: I rise to speak against Bill 12, which is they need in classes of more than 30 — at a time when now, as my colleagues have said and as the hon. mem- they need it most. ber next to me said earlier on, legislation through ex- I would suggest that there is something very wrong haustion. in our society, where kids are suffering in our class- What I find quite interesting is that this govern- rooms because of these conditions and where teachers ment has said all along that they have the interest of are often too depressed because they have to try to deal kids at heart. So I would like to start my speech in op- with huge classes. Then, also because of government position to this bill by reading a letter I received from a changes, they cannot get leave for that depression. retired teacher in Campbell River. He writes: There is no stress leave. They can't claim it under WCB. Within the public school system, special needs children That isn't the case for this bill, but it is something that have had their education services reduced and altered in adds to their pressures. order to increase the financial surplus of this province. Teachers are angry, they are frustrated, and they The professional body that educates these children are depressed because they can no longer negotiate, has used their employment bargaining provisions to es- talk about the learning conditions, the classroom con- tablish clearly defined levels of service provisions for ditions, their working conditions. As my colleague special needs children. Historically, these provisions evolved, based on the needs of both students and teach- from Surrey–Green Timbers mentioned earlier, their ers. The provincial government cuts altered these provi- working conditions cannot be negotiated, because this sions in the misunderstood belief they were only of bene- government has stripped them of that right and be- fit to the teachers. cause this government is refusing to negotiate. In- Now even the public is aware that these provisions stead, it is imposing the extension of an already- were of paramount benefit to the students. Yet this gov- imposed contract. ernment once again attacks its public school teachers as I would suggest that we all do agree on one thing they attempt to restore not only working conditions but — that teachers are essential. They inspire our children. learning conditions. In its zeal to attack the BCTF, this government has accepted the reality that our children, We have heard many stories from members about special needs children in particular, will suffer, as "collat- those special teachers in their lives, the ones who made eral damage." the difference, who were there at a certain point in [2035] their education. Everybody has a memory of a special And the teacher goes on: teacher. Those special teachers are out there. They lead I use this military terminology because we have had stu- our children. They inspire our children. They engage dents commit suicide. These were good kids with prom- them, and they teach them. ising futures who needed timely intervention, but who were invisible within the crowd. [S. Hammell in the chair.] And I continue to quote this letter: It is the policy and the actions of the Liberal government Madam Speaker, you yourself have talked elo- that created the size of this crowd. A minute of conversation, a moment of acknowledgment or a single behaviour quently about this. I must admit I get quite frustrated, observation might well have directed these students because what I hear from the opposite benches often away from suicide, but the teacher who might have appears to be platitudes about their commitments to made this difference is no longer employed. education. What greater commitment is there to our The reality of a reduced student-to-teacher ratio is children's future than investing in their education? well beyond the accountant's surplus-to-deficit balance. [2040] The reality is well beyond the relative achievement It has been said often in this debate that children scores, beyond the quantity of money spent or saved and beyond the statistics that compare schools. The reality of are our society's future. I don't think anyone can chal- a reduced student-to-teacher ratio is a multitude of lenge that. But a solid, well-rounded education gives missed moments. Some of these missed moments have them what they need to fully contribute to our society death as the result — collateral damage. Just thinking and to make our society a better society. It's not just the about it makes me sick. How do you feel? number of children who graduate, who leave school, I would like to ask members opposite how they do who get through the various stages of school and pass feel when…. That is the worst case, but there are lots of the various tests. It isn't a numbers game. Education other, smaller cases where children's needs are not be- isn't about statistics. Education is about children, and it ing met because of what has been happening. You of- is about the way that we want to see our society in the ten can't see it — collateral damage. It's a good term; future.

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Our teachers recognize this, and this is why they're who are there to educate them. Otherwise, it just hurts so frustrated. As I said earlier, we've heard a stated everyone. commitment to education from the members opposite, I was talking to a teacher in Campbell River earlier from this government — one of the golden goals. But today who was telling me that there are classrooms — teachers see huge classes, no support, and they see, again, in middle schools — where there are kids in the recognize and know that there needs to be an imposition with learning disabilities who can't function. provement in the conditions. They don't have the support they need, the teachers Government's reaction? To bring forward this bill don't have the support they need, and all the children — a bill which destroys the possibility of negotiation, in those classrooms suffer. This settlement doesn't offer ends the chance of finding a mutually acceptable way support. It doesn't help get around those issues. It of going forward for our children's sake. Instead, doesn't make the educational environment better for they're putting forward this bill, this self-declared set- these children. There is no reduction in class size if we tlement. are not talking about class composition and about As the member for Vancouver-Fairview said before: teachers' learning conditions. "What settlement? Zero-zero-and-zero? What sort of Again, I will give members opposite some exam- settlement is that?" Not only is that an insult at the best ples, because I'm not sure how many teachers they of times — an insult which it's fair to say is directed at have talked to: Grade 12 math at Carihi high school in the public sector — but it's an insult where we've just Campbell River, 42 kids in the class — 42. Bright stu- seen the introduction of a budget with massive corpo- dents are going to survive. They're going to carry on. rate tax cuts — tax cuts that were not expected, not They're going to get challenged and just go ahead and asked for and, frankly, not necessary. We've heard work on their own, and maybe the poor ones will get from people on the street. I don't know if the hon. some assistance. As a teacher told me, it is the middle members opposite have been talking to anyone outside ones that fade away. "They just get lost," she said. What this House. But if they had, there have been many peo- can you give 42 children? Three seconds each? ple talking in the last few days, as this debate has con- Also, at middle schools — some of the most forma- tinued, about why that money is going to corporations tive years for young people — the overcrowding is and why we don't just resolve the problem with the ridiculous. Because of cuts in funding, because of teachers right now. downloading, we have a lack of space in the class- This so-called settlement that has been questioned rooms. You often see kids in the hallways, eating their throughout the debate also offers nothing for our kids. lunch, and in the classrooms, so many children. Teachers are realists. They're not just after the money. Again, an example: I'll use Campbell River in my They also want to negotiate conditions for our chil- own constituency. Middle schools in Campbell River dren's best interests. That's why teachers have been have woodwork classes — 30 students in a woodwork wanting to see learning conditions in negotiations — class in a middle school. You have tools in woodwork class size and class makeup on the table when they class. Like the science class example earlier, you have bargain. Teachers are realists, and they can see, in the tools. It's the shop. How are you going to not only classroom, who is suffering. teach children in a middle school, but how are you It's our kids who are suffering. Our kids are not going to supervise them adequately when you have 30 suffering at the hands of militant teachers but with children in a class? A teacher there told me: "You actu- teachers who are burning out, who are overstretched ally get to hope that some of the kids aren't going to because the class sizes are just too big and the support come to class." That is an indictment of this govern- is not there. ment's policies. The members on this side of the House are not I can carry on with examples of overcrowded class- making this up. Again, I wonder how many teachers rooms. The examples go on and on in every single the members on the other side have talked to. I was school where I have been talking to teachers over the talking to a middle-school science teacher the other day last many months. They all have long, long examples of from Lake Trail Middle School in Comox Valley. She is their classrooms being too crowded to be able to teach a science teacher in a middle school. Think of the age. their children. In her science class she has 32 children — one science [2050] class, one teacher. Among those 32 children are 14 with This comes down to something that was suggested special needs. I would say not just that it's not provid- in the budget: that government has to make choices. ing good quality education; it's simply not safe. School trustees and school boards also have to make [2045] choices. They have limited budgets, as the government How are they, or other children, going to get the said in its own budget. These trustees, these boards — education they need, the assistance they need, the abil- these local representatives who have had the costs ity to work that they need? It's so essential to have spe- downloaded on them — have to choose whether they cial needs kids in the classroom so we have every child. support a school librarian or the band program. What As the members earlier have said, "Every child is spe- sort of choices are these? These are real choices. This cial." We need to have every child in the classroom, but was one of the choices made at Sunset middle school in we also need full support for them and for the teachers Port McNeill. What are you going to do?

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These are not frills in children's education. These district 85 with Port Hardy, Port McNeill, Alert Bay, are part of what should be a good, well-rounded edu- Sointula and Woss — wide cross-sections of communication in our public school system. They're not luxu- ties a long way apart from each other — had a cut of 60 ries; they're not frills. But those choices are forced onto percent. That's 60 percent. So much for the golden goal school districts, because they've had these costs of literacy. downloaded on them by the government. They now Yesterday, as we heard, was World Teachers Day, have to pay their MSP, pensions, hydro — there's a and it was very nice to be able to talk to the House long list. It means a choice between having a teacher or about teachers. Unfortunately, it's such a sad time. On a teacher's assistant working in the classrooms with that day Heather Reisman, an entrepreneur, a busi- our kids or paying the bills. nesswoman, had a piece in the Vancouver Sun about the I have three school districts in my constituency. I importance of literacy. As we know, she runs a chain of have to admit that the downloading costs really hit bookstores across the country, and I quote: "Early liter- rural communities very hard and maybe in a different acy is the very basis of self-esteem and confidence. It's way than in some of the urban centres. At one school a clear indicator of future success. Yet many of there is a full-time counsellor, and 40 kilometres down the…school libraries and classrooms are in dire need, the road the counsellor teaches halftime. One of them is mainly the result of underfunding and cutbacks." a high school, so you don't have a full-time counsellor These are the issues that the teachers wanted to be in a high school perhaps one of the essential times able to address, wanted to be able to negotiate. They when you need a counsellor in a school. In another wanted to be able to negotiate conditions. They wanted district there is only one full-time counsellor at one of to be able to make sure that they could ensure that our the schools — out of the whole district, one counsellor kids got the best possible education so that our kids in one school. actually did get the opportunity to grab the golden goal, to reach for the golden goal of literacy instead of [H. Bloy in the chair.] being shunted aside. [2055] Then in other areas there are teachers trying to This government really does not care. I just don't teach four different subjects in one classroom because think that with this bill the government can care about of blended grades. Now, this might seem a very nice what is happening to our children in the classrooms, image of the old schoolhouse where everybody is in because teachers aren't childminders. They are profes- the room together and all are learning together, but sionals. Even the Minister of Education recognized this, let's look at this realistically. Imagine teaching grades although this was after the settlement was announced. four to seven in one classroom with one teacher and all Teachers share their knowledge. They provide edu- the different needs of all those kids, the different areas cational stimulus. They are mentors. As was said ear- and different levels. This is what teachers are trying to lier, we all have memories — often fond — of our do. teachers. They have guided all of us, and we hope that I've seen the impact of classes not being taught in they will guide the coming generations. some high schools. I've earlier told the House about How many teachers dedicate hours to their work some classes not being taught in Port McNeill at beyond the school day — elementary school teachers in North Island Secondary. Port Hardy Secondary the classroom on weekends, getting ready for their School doesn't have grade 12 math. It doesn't have kids? These are their children, and that's why they chemistry or physics 11 and 12. This is, obviously, a want to make sure that learning conditions are right in huge problem for children. the classroom for their children. High school teachers Then of course, there is — as many of my col- work with students as they go through some of their leagues, other members, have mentioned — the issue most formative and most difficult years. They work of teacher-librarians — one of the keys to literacy, voluntarily out of school with clubs and with teams. which, as I think we are all well aware now, is one of They coach. They work on drama projects or year- the great goals of this government. Teacher-librarians books. They lead band — that's if the band program guide students. They guide them in reading and re- hasn't been cut. search. They underpin the work done in the classroom. But teachers have been pushed to the limit by this They let students explore new avenues. We've heard government. They spend hundreds of dollars each out the statistics of teacher-librarians down almost 25 per- of their own money — out of the money for which cent across the province. there is no negotiation for an increase — for school What does this mean in reality in local schools? supplies so they can make sure that their kids get the Well, in the three school districts in my constituency…. best quality education that is possible. They want to School district 72, which is Campbell River and Say- make sure that children's learning experience is as rich ward, had a 42-percent cut in teacher-librarians, and as possible. school district 84, which is Gold River and Tahsis, Ze- In rural communities this is a huge…. Teachers ballos and Kyuquot, a 50-percent cut in teacher librari- work so hard at it. I know an elementary school teacher ans — halved. In that school district, by the way, the in Sointula, at the north end of the Island, who wanted number of students went down by only 11 percent, but to make sure that her kids got the supplies needed to the number of teacher-librarians was halved. School carry out school projects. So she got on the ferry from

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Sointula on a weekend and went over to Port McNeill. the quality education they need? Because what teachers Port McNeill didn't have it — had to go to Campbell know, what I know my colleagues on this side of the River. Campbell River didn't have what she needed, so House know, and what parents know is that our chil- she had to go down to Courtenay. We're talking about dren are our future. This is not said lightly. If we don't a commute on a weekend as well as a ferry ride, with give our children the fullest opportunities, if we don't the ferry fare increases — a round trip of about 600 give them the chance to fully learn and to have the kilometres — to buy supplies so that she, out of her experiences and the mentoring, the leading — what own money, could make sure that her kids got good good teachers can offer — we are going to be so de- quality education. nuded as a society, there will be nothing left. This is the sort of commitment that we see across That's why I, too, as the member for Vancouver- the province from teachers who are dedicated to their Fairview said earlier, implore this government to think children. That is why imposing a settlement, as this bill again, to think about what it is doing, about how it is does — this refusal to negotiate — is so wrongheaded. pushing people to a brink at this stage. Whatever hap- If I may, I'd like to quote some examples from pens at this stage, think of the next stage, think of how teachers. I've been getting, as I think many members we are going to carry on, because I know young peo- have, many e-mails from teachers, much correspon- ple, as well as talking to teachers about to retire…. dence. I think one of the saddest ones I've had is from a high school teacher who has been working for about 15 Mr. Speaker: Thank you, member. Time's up. years. It starts: [2105] I used to love my job. I find it so sad that now I actually dread coming to school. I teach seven humanities J. Kwan: I rise to speak on Bill 12, second reading of courses. The mark load alone is a full-time job. I used to this bill. have a balance with career and personal planning, but I heard that the Minister of Labour says that he's that was given to a counsellor, because they felt it was sad and that he's disappointed that he has to bring this more important for her to have a great relationship with the students than me. bill, the Teachers' Collective Agreement Act, before us. I heard him say that he had no choice but to do this. He [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] says that his associate deputy, the fact-finder assigned to meet with the employer and the teachers to see if

common ground could be found to move negotiations That's a sad comment. forward…. Through that process the minister says We have wonderful support teachers — learning assistance, special needs, resource teachers, skills develop- there was no common ground to be found. The Minis- ment and so on. But even with those, I feel like I can't get ter of Labour says that the two parties had met 35 times around to all the students to help them. and did not come to an agreement on one term or one [2100] item. From there, the minister and this government They carry on: drew the conclusion that Bill 12 must be brought in, There was a time when we had enough support with that the legislative hammer must be brought down, teaching assistants, but those days are gone. We also, up and that is the end of the concept of free collective bar- until the Liberals came into power, had a cap on class gaining. sizes — 28 was the maximum. Most of the classrooms Since the release of the report, the tabling of this were built for 28 students. So when you pile more in, it legislation, I went back, and I went to look at the fact- feels like we're a bunch of sardines squished into a can. A finding report. I read it again with a lot more care, I couple of years ago I had 36 students in my class, a class built for 28. You couldn't move. With those added bod- must admit, than the first time I read that report. I must ies, the noise level was unbearable. This year my maxi- say, what I took from that report is that there is com- mum number of students is 30, but I'm worried. There mon ground. The fact-finder said both the employer are still five and a half months left. and the teachers have priorities, and the common Teachers are concerned. Teachers are writing. I find ground where the priorities meet is around working it very dispiriting, because one of the things is that we and learning conditions. Now, some may say: "What are getting so many disillusioned teachers, so many exactly are working and learning conditions? What teachers….I've talked to a number of teachers who does that mean?" You may ask: how does that relate to have worked for many, many years. Some have retired, the best interests of students? and some are on the brink of retirement. What is truly Let me just go through some of those items in this frightening is where are the young teachers going to House. First, we've heard from other members that come from? Where are the teachers going to come from there is the issue of class size. Let's just visit history a when they can see how demoralized their colleagues little bit. In 2002 the B.C. Liberal government, the Pre- are, how badly treated they've become? mier, removed the upper class-size limit of 30 and If they see this bill being pushed forward, an im- made 30 the average class size for students in grades posed contract re-imposed, with the government acting four to 12. like the bully in the school yard just pushing and push- The government will have you believe that class ing and pushing until they have their way, how are we size is not an issue. The government will have you going to get new young teachers in? How are we going think that the students' opportunity to learn will not be to attract people to make sure that our children do get affected by class size. Well, I sat on the Education

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Committee in the last four years. In 2001 the committee in small class sizes were charged with criminal offences went out to meet with educators, students, parents, and that a smaller proportion of those students applied administrators and other British Columbians who are for income assistance. interested in the issue of education. We received many, Now, you may say that's just one study, Mr. many submissions from members of the public. They Speaker. I might add and just point out for the mem- took the time out. They came and spoke to the commit- bers of the House that this is by far the largest and tee — young and old, and people from all walks of life. most comprehensive study that has been done around Now, at one point — as you can imagine, hon. the issue of class size. It has been noted by the experts Speaker — the issue of class size surfaced. As it hap- in the field that not one study since 1904 to the present pens, one of the members of the committee is a retired contradicts this finding on the issue of class size. So principal, the former member for Delta North, Mr. Reni what is the lesson learned here? Class size matters. Is it Masi. Recognizing his profession and his knowledge any wonder that teachers who enter the profession — base in the area, I asked Mr. Masi whether or not there whose hopes and dreams are to help young people is an optimal class size. People talk about it. I've heard maximize their potential, to see the flowers grow and all sorts of debate about it. I asked: "From your experi- blossom, if you will — fight this tooth and nail, that ence as a principal and a former teacher, what are your they put their heart and soul in it like you have never thoughts on that?" Mr. Masi responded by saying that seen anything before? yes, there is. So I asked: "What is the optimal number You know what? It isn't just about the teachers or, if in terms of class size?" He said to me: "Sixteen." That's you say, their working conditions. It is also about bene- what he said: 16, 17 maybe. Some members might fiting the students in the class. At the end of the day if think it's funny, but that's what the member said. You we invest in that now and believe in the study and the can check the record, because what he said is on re- research that's been done, it will pay dividends for all cord. of us in our society. I raise this point because all too often you hear from [2115] the government that…. When the issue of class size is There are about 1,800 public schools throughout raised, you are led to believe that those seeking lower British Columbia. Every one of them is the heart of our class sizes are unreasonable in their demands, that community. We know how much young people benefit somehow teachers who are fighting this fight are just when parents, teachers and community members are doing it for some bizarre, selfish reason. all helping to provide them with opportunities to learn [2110] at home, at school and in the broader society. Teachers I know that some will say: "So what? This is anec- work hard. They work hard to meet the unique needs dotal." Let me just say that Mr. Masi was a former of all of our students. But you know what, hon. member of the Liberal government caucus — not an Speaker? They cannot do it alone, and they are getting NDP caucus member but a Liberal caucus member — tired in this process. They feel that they don't have the who said the optimal class size is 16. Now, I didn't sort support that is necessary for them to do the best job of just take Mr. Masi's word for it. I thought, okay. that they know they can, that they feel they can and Here's what he said, and because everyone's talking that they want to do. about it and it is an important issue, I thought, you They need resources, and they need support, and I know, maybe I should just go look it up, maybe do am very sad to say that they're not receiving it from some research, check it out and see what it says. The government. The government stripped from the last library — full of books out there, although under- collective agreement the teachers' ability to ensure that funded as it is, dwindling as we speak…. But never there's certainty on the question of class size. We have mind that. So I went to check and see what the research seen class sizes go up in many districts across the prov- says. ince. The average class size for grades four to 12 is 30. Let me tell you about a specific research project that But you know what? That's the average. There are was done that I came across in my reading: a project many, many classes with more than 30 students in the called student-teacher achievement ratio — for short, classroom. STAR. In the STAR project students and teachers were That's just one issue on the issue around learning randomly assigned to various class-size conditions in conditions. Class size is not the only issue. The other grades K-to-three: small class sizes of about 13 to 17, issue is class composition. Now, I must admit before I regular class sizes of about 22 to 26, and regular class entered into this Legislature, I didn't know what class sizes of 22 to 26 with full-time teacher assistants. composition was. What is class composition? Well, let The results show that students in smaller class sizes me tell you. Simply put, class composition means the for the first four years of school performed better on makeup of students in a particular classroom. Class nationally normed and criterion-referenced tests. composition is the other component that is vital for the Moreover, students who had been in small classes con- educator and the student. tinued to move ahead of their grade level as they con- In today's diverse makeup of our community there tinued on through to grade 12. The study didn't stop are a variety of different students with different needs there. It found that a greater proportion of those stu- and different strengths. What that means for teachers is dents wrote entrance exams for post-secondary institu- that they must develop an educational program that tions, that a smaller proportion of students who began will meet the needs of all of the students in the class-

610 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 room. I have a number of inner-city schools in my rid- we want to make sure that how they're being educated ing, the riding of Vancouver–Mount Pleasant, and we fits their exact needs. have students from all walks of life. Some come to I know that very well. I know of one youngster who school hungry and scared. Some come to school with needed that help. Because of the cutbacks and short- English as their second language and don't speak one ages in the education system, he had to leave the word of English. school he was accustomed to. He was in grade four. He I was one of those students, by the way, when we had to move to another school and leave his friends first immigrated here. I walked into the classroom. I behind because of that special need, because the school didn't speak a word of English — didn't know what the he had been attending didn't have those kinds of sup- heck anybody was saying. Thank goodness for those ports. Some schools now are forced to amalgamate teachers and the special attention I received that I have their supports into one school in a region or area be- now learned how to speak English — some say not cause they can't afford to ensure that kind of support is very well. Nonetheless, I've learned the language. But everywhere. with English, when it's not your first language, you The student went there. You know what? The need special assistance. teacher who met this young student and the family Some come to school with a knowledge base that's was fantastic, and I've seen the development of this above the average norm. They are specially gifted or young person since that time. His confidence grew. He talented in their own area, and they excel beyond the learned. He excelled. He learned that he wasn't a average student in their classroom. Some come with dummy but that he just learns differently. Now that other special gifts, special gifts where they need special school is offering it — not in his home school but help — children with some difficulties, perhaps, in somewhere else. Some children don't have that luxury, learning or processing, with developmental challenges because their parents can't get them to a school outside — and they need extra assistance in that learning envi- of their district. ronment. I know of another child who is in exactly that situation. Because that family has two kids, it was impossi- As you know, between 2001 and 2004 the number ble for the family to manage having the two kids go to of special education professionals in our education two different schools. As a result, the one who needed system declined. As our communities are getting more the extra help is not going to the school with the extra complex, as the challenges are increasing in the class- help outside of the district. That's a true story. It hap- rooms for both the educators and the students, the pened just this September. number of supports specializing in assisting those chil- Now, if you are a teacher in a classroom, as another dren actually went down — not by one, not by two, not example the teachers and educators and families have by three — by 740. That's 28 percent of the total reduc- told me, where you have a split class…. Some people tion of teachers in our system. call it a blended class, which is that you're in a class- [2120] room that has perhaps two different grades, grade Now, you will hear the government say: "Yeah, but fours and fives gather in one classroom — a split class. enrolment also went down. The number of students On top of that, you have some students with ESL also went down." Well, let me tell you this: the enrol- needs. On top of that, you have gifted students who ment went down by 5 percent. I'm not a mathemati- excel in their unique way above average and far above cian, but I can do simple math. A reduction of 28 per- average in some instances, and then you have the other cent versus a reduction of 5 percent of students is a spectrum of gifted children who have special needs. huge difference. They excel differently, and they have particular de- What that means is that in the education system mands and teaching techniques that are required for somebody is doing without. Students are not getting them to reach average. the attention they need, and that means their learning When you have a variety, a varying degree, of chil- outcomes are compromised. That means they don't dren in that classroom, you've got one hour to teach a have the best opportunity to maximize their potential. lesson to two different classes, classes with a blended That means the teachers who see this every day, the variety of children in their composition of learning front-line workers, if you will, who see this every day capacity, and you as the teacher are supposed to come — I know it breaks their hearts. They entered into the up with an individualized education plan and deliver profession because they want to see the students and this in one hour. the children excel. [2125] It is in this context that you will understand why Do you think that's an easy job for a teacher to do? teachers desperately, desperately want certainty in the Do you think that in those circumstances the teacher classroom around class size and classroom composi- could do the best job they can? Do you think the stu- tion. Teachers are expected to provide special support dents get the attention they need? I don't think so. I've to students with special needs, the gifted children, the heard from parents who see that situation go on with average children. These students need individualized their own child. I've heard from teachers who say: "I'm education plans, those who need extra help. I believe at wit's end, and I don't know what to do anymore." that students with unique needs should get individual- Some have said to me: "I think I'm going to go and find ized education plans, because they are different, and another profession, because this is just too hard, and I

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 611 can't take it." It's not because the work is hard but be- and bargaining in the bargaining process and composi- cause they see the children falling between the cracks, tion in the bargaining process…. They are just using and they can't take it. that as an argument. They don't have, in my view, the So with fewer support workers, teachers are being real facts to actually back it up. The reality is that there forced to make very difficult decisions about the kids is already built-in flexibility to address those very in their class with different needs. How many special things. needs students can a teacher reasonably be expected to [2130] teach in a single class? What happens to the quality of Those are the two issues I raise that teachers feel instruction when a teacher is forced to respond to spe- passionately about and that I saw in the fact-finder's cial needs students? Let me be clear: teachers support report as one of two priority issues that they want dealt integration. They want to see a variety of children, dif- with. I can understand why they would want it dealt ferent children in the schools. But they also need the with. It makes complete, logical sense to me — because necessary supports, teaching supports, in the class- they know it matters in the lives of students. That is rooms. The provisions for support for teachers with why. special needs students — that was a collective bargain- I want to add another component to this picture, ing issue — were stripped. That means the certainty of and that is the issue of funding. Let us be clear: the what that class composition looks like is gone. government froze the education budget in 2001. Yes, as With fewer support workers, fewer specialists, a result of community pressure, as a result of parents fewer ESL teachers, teachers are being forced to make speaking up, as a result of educators speaking up, the very difficult decisions about which kids in their class government has added a few dollars to the education are most needy and how they go about doing their job. budget on a one-time basis here and there in the last This government made that decision to take that cer- four years. But let us not forget that the government tainty away. I heard the member for Peace River South has also increased the costs of education — things like say he supported that, and I think he said it with such increased MSP premiums imposed by the government bravado that it made me think he was proud of that. I into the education system, things like increased fuel hope I heard wrong, but I don't think so. costs imposed by the government. I might add that fuel But I'll say this. When teachers are fighting for this costs are continuing to rise with no sign of relief — not issue, yes, some will say it is for them, but more impor- from government, not in the minibudget, not from tantly, we all believe — even though we have different anywhere. points of view — in providing the best education sys- School boards will have to bear the brunt of that. tem that we can. I would ask members before they They will have to make those tough decisions of trying speak with such absolute conviction on this decision of to figure out how we're going to get those yellow government that perhaps they step back and try their school buses running, the buildings heated, the class- very best to look through these issues with a set of dif- rooms warm and so on without having to take out pro- ferent eyes, and maybe they will see something differ- grams. They will be stuck with that decision once ent. again. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me say this. I want to thank the teachers for speaking up on the issue. They are rais- I know that the government side…. Certainly, the ing the alarm because of the damage that is being done, former Minister of Education felt very good about it. and they see it before their very eyes. They're putting Christy Clark — she used to get up and say things like, the needs of their students first. Make no mistake about "I'm not making those decisions; I'm funding students' that. education adequately," when we know very well that The government will respond that they have put programs are being slashed right and center and that more money back into the system, that the average all school boards and school trustees are at their wit's works out, and they'll cite examples of one student ends. As a result of that, some 112 schools closed. being left out of a classroom because of those limita- Do you think those schools closed because teachers tions, because of those restrictions, in the collective or educators wanted to close them, or because school agreement. They will say that, but in reality, we know trustees or parents wanted them closed? Absolutely that there are ways to actually address the one student not. They had to close those schools because they who might not be able to get into a class because of couldn't fund them and because the government bargaining-rights limits on class size. We know that, wouldn't fund them. and there is flexibility already built in, even if you have Just when the government members are congratu- class-size limitations and class-size compositions in the lating themselves, they might just pause and take a collective agreement. Members should know that. I've moment and remember the facts. The fact is that the heard it from teachers, I've heard it from parents, and government has underfunded the education system, I've seen, with my very own eyes, how that works. and they continue to underfund the education system. For people to say that there is no flexibility, that More than that, what they're doing today — and what this must be done and this is how it must be done and the government has done by introducing Bill 12 and by why it must be done, that students somehow should wanting to debate this legislation through exhaustion, not be the political football the government often ac- by making members go into the middle of the night — cuses teachers of when they raise the issue of class size is adding fuel to the fire. They're not trying to help de-

612 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 escalate. In fact, they are actually escalating the prob- that response, and I won't take time to go into that to- lems in the system. day, because it is a debate for another day. But it is On that note, I'd like to move a motion. false to pretend that homelessness is being addressed [Be it resolved that the motion for second reading of the when the government's actions and policies have in- bill intituled Teachers' Collective Agreement Act, 2005, creased homelessness in our communities. Research be amended by striking out "now read a second time," after research has shown that. and adding "read a second time six months hence."] Now, what we want on this side of the House is to [2135] see progress. We want to see things get better for the next generation. We don't want to see things move On the amendment. back in time. Isn't it interesting that for a government that is so zealous in their support for test standardiza- J. Kwan: Here's my amendment for the Clerk's of- tion, so zealous that they're almost…. Let me just say fice. zealous; it might be unparliamentary if I use the other Just when the government members are congratu- word. They don't seem nearly as interested in stan- lating themselves, we must pause and think back. dards for resources and classroom support. How is that Now, I heard earlier today that the member for Peace possible? Why is that? River South said that when he was in school, he had to [2140] share books when he was growing up, that classroom Let me just turn to another issue, and that is the issue conditions weren't optimal, and that somehow why of teacher-librarians. There are no set standards in Brit- should we be so shocked today when we hear some of ish Columbia around this issue. In fact, according to these issues because some of us grew up with that ex- Statistics Canada, only two percent — and let me repeat perience. Well, I have spoken with parents who re- it so every member can hear this clearly: only two per- member that a class size of 40 was once the norm. cent — of schools in this province have a full-time librar- Let me say this. I come from a family where my ian. Put another way, 98 percent of the students do not parents sacrificed everything just so that their children have librarians. School libraries have had their hours — namely, me, my brother and my sisters — could reduced and their staff cut back. Meanwhile, this gov- have better opportunities than they did. My mother ernment proclaims it wants B.C. to be the best-educated, has a grade six or, at best, a grade seven level of educa- most literate jurisdiction on the continent. tion. My father has a grade 11 or, at best, a grade 12 education from China. My brother, my younger sister Interjection. and I are the first generation in the Kwan family to have the opportunity to attend post-secondary educa- Deputy Speaker: Can I remind the members that tion. there's no comment when you're not sitting in your I now have a 2½-year-old daughter, and I wish and chair, and all comments have to be directed through I work like crazy every single day with my husband the Chair. and my extended family to make sure that she has the best opportunities in the world. I desire nothing else J. Kwan: Between 2002 and 2004 teacher-librarian but the very best for my child, and let me tell you, I staffing dropped by 25 percent. Statistics Canada says desire that for all the children. that the budget for new acquisitions for elementary I sure as heck hope there are enough books in the schools was $11.13 per student, and for secondary classrooms for all of the children. I sure as heck hope schools, it was $13.21 per student. I can tell you that that the learning conditions improve so that it's better you cannot buy much in a bookstore for $13.21 today. I than what it was when I was growing up or when the was just in the bookstore the other day and bought my member for Peace River South was growing up. We see little kid a bunch of books. I walked out of there; I got the situation. Instead of improvement, we see things three books, and it cost me 60 bucks. actually declining. Now, the government wants to spend millions to give students a book to take home — they say — yet [H. Bloy in the chair.] they will not pay for someone to teach kids how to use and get the most out of the library system. Well, isn't Now, it may be okay for the government to move that typical of the Liberal spending priorities, and isn't things backwards, for that's what they have done in the it interesting that the Minister of Finance would rather last four years, and they feel very comfortable with spend tens of thousands of taxpayers' dollars on parti- that. We've seen it. We've seen it in the last four years. san ads rather than investing those dollars in the edu- After all, we now have children as young as 12 work- cation system? ing with very little regulation, and that somehow Conservative estimation. I don't know how much seems to sit okay with the government members. those ads cost. The Minister of Finance won't tell us. We somehow think it's okay that people who are in greatest need don't get the help they need, and we see a An Hon. Member: She doesn't know. huge amount of people become homeless in our communities. The government will say: "Oh, but we're do- J. Kwan: Oh, I think she knows. I think she doesn't ing more than anybody else." Well, there's a fallacy in want British Columbians to know how much money at

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 613 this time the government is spending on partisan ad- that government would have helped to break the log- vertising. After all, before the election, they only blew jam. They could have sent a message to the teachers $7 million overbudget on partisan advertising to bene- that their issues are important, that the government fit their political gain. They wouldn't want to blow the will address them, that the teachers do have an oppor- whistle on that — wouldn't want anybody to know tunity to respond and work with the government and that until after the fact, in the hopes that people might really become a partner in the education system. forget. Parents would have known that the government Well, let me say this. A conservative estimation of actually cared about the issues that affect the quality of the cost of a day of advertising…. I'd say it's probably education, that the government has shown them with about $54,000 a day, keeping in mind those ads ap- action that they actually care, and that they were seeing peared in all of our major papers and the community a government acting as a partner instead, as my other papers across the province. It's a lot of papers. I don't colleagues have said, as a schoolyard bully. know; I'm just doing a conservative estimation. It's not Instead, the government has chosen to pick another like me to do a conservative estimation, but I'm doing fight and to ignore the issues in the classroom that are it right here, right now. I say $54,000 a day. getting progressively worse as a result of their policies. On the basis of the Statistics Canada figure on the Well, I am sad to say that the government needs to stop cost of books, one could buy approximately 4,500 li- blaming others. If the government takes on that re- brary books that will benefit 4,500 students at the sponsibility for its record on education, we probably minimum. Rather than investing in books, staff and the would have an opportunity to stem the crisis that's education system, the government would rather spend before us. the money that will benefit their political gain. But maybe what the government really wants to do Now, in my district, 30 percent of kids show up on is to distract people from the issue at hand. If that's the first day of school speaking not a word of English. what they're doing, then I am sad to say that the reason Their parents are often not able to teach to them or why Bill 12 is before us is for other reasons than in the read to them in English. Many of them are challenged best interests of students. The government's attempt to because these families face their own difficulties: pov- pick fights, to blame others…. I heard members say: erty, to name one; childhood traumas; addiction; pros- "Maybe we should stop with the blame." Maybe the titution. The list goes on. I ask: how will these kids government should show some leadership on that have the opportunity to best maximize their potential? front and stop the blame and stop pointing fingers. How will giving these kids a book and leaving them to I think that British Columbians do expect more their own devices help them learn by themselves? from their government. They expect their government Libraries should be an equalizer to help level the play- to be adults here. They expect the government to bar- ing field between those kids who have resources at home gain in good faith, to think of the public interest first in and those who don't. But this government doesn't believe the longer term. That's where the government has in levelling or equalling the field. For that matter, this failed to date. They have failed the children and the government, I don't think, believes in libraries, in teacher- parents of British Columbia. The fix on Bill 12 will not librarians and special assistants. address the issue in the long term. The pain will come, [2145] and we will see it. Sadly, we will see it in the children, Across the system, stresses are becoming sharper because they lack the opportunities that they deserve. and more pronounced. Illness and sick leaves are up, You know, as a wise teacher once told me, failure is and people and teachers and students are doing their not final. It is a success waiting to happen. I do believe very best to cope. In particular, low-income families are that there is a better and more respectful way to handle struggling to cope, and the wave of cuts of social ser- the teacher bargaining process and that Bill 12 is not vices compounds things. Community resources, which the way. I believe we can tackle the challenging issues my office used to refer families to, have been cut back. in our schools as partners and not as adversaries. Children are falling through the cracks. When we lose The motion that I move gives us the opportunity to the opportunity to intervene in a struggling child's do that, because it's asking us to not pass second read- education in the early years, we know that the prob- ing at this time, and that, at least in the minimum, we lems compound, and we know that it is much more defer it for another six months. Let's get out there and difficult to fix later. These learning problems are mag- listen to the teachers who are hurting. They are hurting nified when the supports are not in place. A child's in every aspect. Let's get out there and talk to parents, confidence and self-esteem are not easily repaired, and because parents want us to solve this problem for the lost ground is not easily regained. long term. Then, there is the issue of the responses of the gov- [2150] ernment. Was this the only way to deal with the issue There is the possibility to do that. To do that we — Bill 12? Were there other options available? It seems must show respect in this House, and we must begin to that there were other options available. The fact-finder act in the direction that sometimes feels counterintui- report makes it clear that there is an opportunity to tive. For the government, that means: go against your address learning and working conditions such as class ideological grain, and look at the bigger picture into size, classroom compositions, teacher-librarians and so the longer term and the opportunities that are before on. By moving constructively on these issues, I believe the government today.

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I know that teachers want the dialogue. It is sad, I should stand down Bill 12. I urge the government to must say, that this government in the last four years stand down Bill 12. under the leadership of the former Minister of Educa- Now, I know that the Minister of Labour will agree tion, Christy Clark, who happened to not take the time with me, and let me quote this on record: "I rise today to meet with teachers in her entire term as the Minister to speak in support of the hoist motion," which is the of Education…. In fact, it wasn't until just before the bill that I raised, on a different bill, though — on Bill election that the new then Minister of Education, the 84: now Minister Of Aboriginal Relations, met with the Surely a bill that affects a lot of employers as well as em- teachers. It is a shame that the government shows such ployees deserves a period of consultation, in spite of disrespect for the teachers by poking a finger in their some communication that perhaps has already taken eyes, by saying to the teachers that they didn't have the place. But surely a communication process prior to a bill right to self-govern their own profession. Every other being drafted sounds good. The question is: does the bill before us actually reflect the views of both labour and profession has that right, but the teachers did not. business? On top of that, as they were taking away the rights [2155] of teachers, they went and gave those rights to car That was the comment from the now Minister of La- dealers. They're saying to car dealers that they deserve bour, the then critic, on a bill that was tabled back in the right to self-govern but that the teachers do not. October of 1992, on the Labour Relations Code. Then, in that process, the government brought in legis- The principle that the government…. I know they lation that says to teachers: "You know what? Our trust have the logic to process the motion that I tabled. They and respect for you has so much declined that the gov- could apply that logic they used when they debated ernment decided that educators should not sit on Bill 84. They could do the same here today. We could school planning councils." use that very same logic that the now Minister of La- They put it in legislation to forbid that as though bour used back in October of 1992 today as we debate somehow the teachers are going to go in there and con- Bill 12. taminate things. I find that shocking. Is that the way I urge all members of this House to enter into the that we show respect? Is that the way we want to show debate about this hoist motion to delay action, to reflect people we want a dialogue? Talk about these ingenu- back on the actions to date and to think about the fu- ous offers. The government says, oh, but there is the ture of children and what it could mean if we could dialogue table now that we want to offer to the teach- stem the escalating crisis before us. Now, I will say this. ers. Well, after we stick our fingers in your eyes and I know it is difficult for this government to do that be- poke you several times, and then we say: "Hey, will cause, historically, they have taken the confrontational you come and sit with me and be friends…?" Guess approach. The government has embarked on a course what. That kind of approach is, quite frankly, not help- that at every turn shows that they didn't support the ful. educators in our system and that shows they have That was the lesson I thought the government other priorities at hand. learned from this election: that we don't want to be The government was elected in May of 2001. In confrontational, that we want to be consensus builders, August of 2001 the government enacted Bill 18, the that we want to reach out to work with people, and Skills Development and Labour Statutes Amendment that we actually want to bring them together instead of Act, 2001, which made education an essential service dividing and pitting people against people. You know under the Labour Relations Code. And the government what? Bill 12 does exactly that. It pits communities feels very proud about that. The members of govern- against communities, and meanwhile, the government ment feel very proud about that. is saying hurray for us. Guess what. The International Labour Organiza- I can't tell you how dismaying it is. I have seen this tion, under the United Nations committee in Geneva, movie played many a time, and the government will condemned the B.C. government for this action. The say: "Well, you guys did it too when you were in gov- committee said in March of 2003: "Recalling that the ernment." Well, let me say this and be very clear on the right to strike is one of the essential means through record: if the minister says that the system is broken, which workers and their organizations may promote that we need to fix the system, then what the govern- and defend their economic and social interests, the ment should do is to bring forward a system that committee concludes that the provisions of Bill 18, works, and then, in that process, invite the experts in which makes education an essential service, are in vio- the field to the table to talk about how to fix the system lation of freedom-of-association principles and should instead of alienating them and then, after the fact, say- be repealed." ing: "Oh, but let's play nice together." Not only did they ignore that, the government went How could the government believe that is the right on to enact Bill 27, the Education Services Collective way to go? I move this motion because it gives us the Agreement Act, and imposed a collective agreement opportunity to delay and to further do harm to what and contract on the teachers. At the same time the gov- has already been done by the government's actions to ernment brought in Bill 27, they brought in Bill 28. The date. I do not think it's too late. I think that the educa- Public Education Flexibility and Choice Act they called tors will come to the table. I think the government it. Bill 28 essentially removed the ability of teachers to

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 615 have input into the conditions in the classrooms and in needs or support from specialist teachers in the school the schools. system. That's what the government did. At every turn, Teachers could no longer negotiate class size, when they're challenged, they turn around and write school days, assignment of courses, class composition new laws to outlaw the Supreme Court decisions. They or staffing ratios for teacher-librarians, ESL teachers, think somehow that's cool. Somehow that's okay. counsellors and learning resource teachers. And any That's something we don't teach our children: to make provisions in their existing contracts that addressed up rules as you go along. But that's exactly what the those matters were ripped up. government is doing, and you think somehow that's a The ILO condemned this action again. Here's what good thing. I don't think so. I do not, I have to say. they had to say: "Such a unilateral action by the au- Now before us is Bill 12. The government has thorities cannot but introduce uncertainty in labour shown after the election that they've learned nothing relations which, in the long term, can only be prejudi- from the electorate. Conflict and confrontation is their cial." approach. They rip up agreements, and you know Now you'd think this would be enough for the what? To add insult to injury, they rip up laws when- government to back down. Well, not so — another leg- ever they can, just because that's their ideological be- islative hammer, another condemnation from the lief. United Nations body and another blow to our educa- It is time now that we set all of that aside and put tion system, another blow to the teachers and their students first — put the future of students first. It is morale, another signal sent to the teachers. time. And I promise I will not do this if the government [2200] stands down Bill 12: I will not say I told you so. I will Most recently the B.C. Court of Appeal agreed. In simply offer, all of us — I'm sure every one of us on February 2005 the highest court in this province stated this side of this House will offer — our hands to the that class size is a "condition that affects the employ- government and say let's work together to build an ment relationship." and the Hon. Mr. Justice Lambert education system that will benefit the children, that of the Court of Appeal said: will ensure families feel comfortable and feel good It seems to me that it is significant that the subject of class about our education system. sizes was negotiated in collective bargaining between Let's make sure that the educators in our system are teachers and school boards before the 2002 legislation and was, clearly, in the past, regarded by the parties as a valued and respected. Let's send them a signal that it is term or condition of employment. The fact that the sub- time for a new partnership to begin. We can begin that ject of class sizes can no longer be negotiated nor have today if the government stands down Bill 12. any place in the collective agreement of the parties does not make this subject any less a term or condition that af- R. Fleming: A few minutes ago I had an opportu- fects the employment relationship. So I regard class sizes nity to meet with a number of students, parents and and aggregate class sizes as a significant part of the employment relationship. teachers from Greater Victoria schools — Claremont, After removing the teachers' right to negotiate Reynolds, Mount Douglas high school. classroom matters, the government then appointed an [2205] arbitrator to decide which contract terms would be Virtually every one of them told me about the con- stripped from the teachers' contracts. The arbitrator cerns they have about a year in education coming up ruled that hundreds of pages of class sizes and compo- — a potential year, following life after Bill 12 — a year sition provisions should be removed, and that was a of school where they'll have no sports, where they flawed decision. Teachers took that to the courts, to the won't enjoy club activities or school newspapers, where B.C. Supreme Court, and they won. Mr. Justice Shaw large, overcrowded classrooms are the norm and are quashed the arbitrator's decision, ruling that it con- legitimized by the province and its actions on public tained fundamental errors on points of law that are education. That's what they're worried about outside important to the education system in British Columbia, this very institution tonight. I would encourage the including to the teachers, the school boards and the members opposite, especially, to maybe talk to them students. and explain their rationale behind Bill 12 and their ac- That's the history of it. This is why I say that the tions to date, their collective failure to resolve this dis- government will change the law when they feel like it, pute. when they see fit. I really do wonder what the Attorney It's clear now that this government's plan for educa- General thinks of that, because that's exactly what the tion bargaining, I think, is going just as was predicted government has done, and justices in our court system and hoped for by the government's side. It's a self- have condemned the government and ruled them in fulfilling prophesy that they put into motion. Unfortu- violation of the law. But the government proceeds, and nately, it represents politics at its worst in British Co- they plunge ahead anyway. lumbia. I'm quite sure the public affairs bureau has In April 2004 the government introduced Bill 19, been updating the ministers responsible daily with Education Services Collective Agreement Amendment polling information about how the government looks Act, 2004, which then overruled Justice Shaw's deci- in the battle that they've set in motion, the battle that sion, to ensure there could not be contractual guaran- they've proudly stoked up between parents and teach- tees of class sizes and services to students with special ers in this province.

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You know, the members opposite have tried to dis- with the chaos in their working lives — the chaos in play the position — to hide behind rhetoric — that their lives that's caused by this government's failure to they're in fact looking out for parents. But make no find any solutions at all, failure to even look for any mistake. It's the government that's put parents through kind of 11th-hour compromise that could have made so much difficulty over the past 72 hours, and indeed, this holiday weekend not a time of high anxiety that it in the days and weeks to come. will be. This government doesn't want a secure, stable Imagine the talk — maybe the members opposite school system. Their actions over the past four years would like to imagine this — around the table this don't speak to that. Once again, they want to force their Thanksgiving. You think anyone's going to be having will and to impose settlements on teachers that will thoughts for this government during grace? I don't keep parents and students, yet again, in a state of think so. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of opinions limbo. They want to maintain the status quo of larger about this government's calculated, cynical record and class sizes, fewer resources, less resources for special their recent actions on education in our school system. needs classes, with ineffective rules about class compo- If parents are taking days off, if they're asking for sition — all of those concerns that are legitimate and time off to care for their kids, if they're going to go valid and just and are not able to be discussed at the through all that stress and anxiety and turmoil this table. They want to defend that state of affairs. week and next and beyond, you know, it would be nice Well, let me tell you that this side of the House if they could at least know that maybe there would be deeply regrets that we have to live through this situa- some good at the end of it — that it was for something, tion. We regret the strain that the government is put- that maybe it will actually lead to a system that isn't ting on hundreds of thousands of families right across broken, or that this government will actually do some- B.C., on the children of those families, on tens of thou- thing to reduce the exacerbation and tensions in our sands of teachers — let's not forget them — on the school system. But they won't get that assurance at all. support staff, the trustees, the administrators in our It will be all for naught, because this government has school system — the anxiety and strain put on all those no commitment to fix this broken system. people. Hon. Speaker, I would submit to you that this dis- The government has almost made it a point of pride pute isn't about the B.C. Teachers Federation anymore, to admit over and over again the obvious: the system is if it ever was. It's gone well beyond that. The members broken. I've heard it from a number of ministers across opposite have said, you know, the more things change, the aisle. They crow on about it almost as if it's a bold the more they stay the same, and talked about movies type of admission. But it's not owning up to a respon- seen before, etc. sibility. It's not demonstrating a commitment to fix it But it actually is different this time. There are no by saying that the system is broken over and over bogeymen of 32 percent wage increases. The minister again. can't say that teachers are being greedy, and that's the Their actions over the past four years and in par- root of this dispute, like her predecessor Christy Clark ticular the past 18 months, in fact, demonstrate a lack delighted in doing to no end. This dispute is about the of commitment and a lack of hard work to find solu- desire to actually talk about teaching and learning con- tions. Their so-called admission that the system is bro- ditions. That's the difference. ken is merely a launching pad to attack and to assign It's a cumulative process. This dispute is about four blame to everyone else but themselves. They absolve years now of disrespect by a government that has gone themselves. They point fingers at teachers, at school out of its way to dump on teachers, to strain and pro- boards, and most of all at the opposition, at previous voke our education system. administrations. They've done it over and over again. [2215] That is, in fact, exactly what has brought us to the brink It's not 1993; it's not 1996. I've heard those dates of this crisis — that attitude. repeated ad nauseum here in October 2005. I can't tell [2210] you how many times I have heard those dates this At the heart of where we are today is the matter week from the members opposite. It's not even 1998. I that teachers aren't being respected in this province. took the liberty of pulling out an article about 1998, They aren't being respected as professionals. They about the teachers' tentative agreement then, because aren't being respected as guardians of our children's 1998, while there were bitter feelings around that, to be learning, nor just as basic people who are dedicated, sure, did create 1,200 new teaching positions as part of who on a daily basis put their lives into the love of the agreement. It did include an additional $75 million teaching other people to learn. That really is it. Because for smaller class sizes for the kindergarten to grade teachers aren't respected by this government, parents three students. It did include $75 million toward restor- and kids aren't being respected either. In fact, they're ing libraries, counsellors, support teachers in the sys- being used as pawns in a political game. tem. That's a pretty significant difference to what we This government knows full well that it is disrupt- have on offer, here and now in October 2005, which is ing lives, that it is disrupting families. What a cost to exactly nothing but a worsening education system. learning that is. What a cost to the economy, for par- It is indeed 2005, and for four years we've had a ents who are busy right now, probably, and next week government that has gone out of its way to increase may be asking their employers for a day off to cope class sizes. It has expanded the workload of teachers

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 617 and laid off thousands of teachers. It has reduced the That's exactly who they feel they're standing up for in education workforce. I have some numbers around this dispute. here somewhere. Between 2001 and 2004 the school Instead of recognizing the new opportunities, the system lost 2,609 teaching positions. Only about 700 of new times, even the way forward that was pointed to those can be attributed to declining enrolment, and in the Connolly report dated September 30, only five 1,900 positions were simply reduced services to stu- days ago…. The opportunity that was identified in the dents through larger classes and fewer support teach- report for provision of a parallel table to discuss class ers. sizes, to discuss teaching and learning conditions, is School districts have reported to the province that being squandered, and it's a shame. Instead of seizing they're hiring 630 more teachers this year. The minister opportunity, we have no dialogue. We have no real said that repeatedly. Do the math. That restores less bargaining at all from the government and haven't had than one-third of the number of teaching positions cut for well over a year. beyond those related to declining enrolment. That's There have been 35 pretty much useless meetings their record. The government can talk about the past all where the government's bargaining agents came to the it wants, but the people of British Columbia are going table with an empty folder to present to the other side. to judge this government on its own record, and it's Imagine that. The government wouldn't even empower becoming clear to more and more British Columbians their own bargaining agents to talk about basic class- that this government epitomizes disrespect to the pro- room issues. What a waste of time and money. What an fession of teaching. exercise in frustration and disrespect that is — to call We remember the government's fiscal framework that bargaining. that they set out at the beginning of the last mandate. Real bargaining should start with a credible, sym- They pointed to deficits. They pointed to the need to pathetic set of shared goals, a set of shared interests embrace restraints to get to better times, but now that that can be articulated by both parties who come to- we have a better fiscal position, now that the business gether and talk about what is at the heart of our educa- cycle has come around and improved, the message is tion system: our kids. Real bargaining should start with exactly the same from the government. Basically, the the assumption that both sides can contribute to mak- message is that in good times and bad, this governing relations, to enhancing the learning potential in our ment will not help fix education. Teachers don't matter, school system. Those would be some shared goals and in good times or bad. assumptions that would really put the province on a It would seem that this government has no capacity different footing. to change with the times — to change its policies, to The minister has labelled her predetermined, in- change its priorities, to change its resource allocations flexible position as one of tough choices. Tough and its budgets. Nor does it have the capacity to see choices. It's kind of a way of patting oneself on the back beyond its solution to difficulties. They're using the when they fail to find any breakthrough — to say: "Aw, same extreme legislative mechanisms today, again, it's tough choices now. Didn't do anything; didn't ac- instead of good-faith bargaining. They're still prohibit- complish anything. It's down to tough choices." ing discussions from the very people who are in our But mature governments here and everywhere else classrooms day in and day out — the teaching profes- in the world, in every other province and democratic sionals, the administrators — about what it's like in the jurisdiction, have to directly face the people who work classrooms of this province and about what improve- for them all the time: the civil servants, the teachers, ments could be made to have a better school system. social workers, prison guards or what have you — all You know, in good times I think what this proves is kinds of people who provide important services. And that this government is squandering an opportunity to the most important services are to our kids, to our soci- turn the corner on education in British Columbia. ety. Mature governments have to do that all the time. They've not even made any effort to find a compromise It's a matter of course for any government, and B.C. that most people could live with — teachers, parents would be a better place if we had a mature government and, yes, the government, a reasonable government, that could do this, as well, could do what every other that they could all live with. That is an opportunity that government does. is being squandered and it will be our kids who pay This government knew during the election last May the price. that the situation we have today was in the offing. Of [2220] course they did. The teachers' contract expired in June Who knows? Its impact may be felt for years to 2004. I'm afraid it's now clearly looking like this gov- come. It will be. I'm certain of that. The kids I spoke to ernment was looking forward to this fight all along. outside this building half an hour ago said to me they They wanted it. They've baited; they've schemed; think this year is a write-off and maybe next year, be- they've cajoled for this preplanned outcome to take cause they don't see change from this government. effect. They've gotten us to exactly where they want us They can't expect action on class sizes or improved to be tonight. resources in the classroom or in their libraries or extra- [2225] curricular activities for themselves, but a lot of these They have articulated, if you want to use that word, bright young people articulated to me that they can at their vision of how best to act in situations like this. least hope that the kids coming after them will see that. They've articulated, once again, that force always

618 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 works, that imposition is the solution that we should They're the very people they need to succeed in life be using. beyond school. Now, maybe the government side has an idea of [2230] what will happen next week, as we all wonder through You know, teachers are — and they remain, what- Thanksgiving weekend exactly what's going to unfold ever this dispute will do — dedicated to students. They next week. But the parents across British Columbia and are passionate in their desire to see their students suc- the school children — they have no idea. They have no ceed, but our teachers, too, need our support, hon. idea what this government's predetermined clockwork Speaker. They need our support if we want, as a prov- plan for provocation and conflict is. This whole dispute ince, to create a culture and environment that allows really is looking more and more like a deliberate, calcu- and encourages our teachers to work the magic they do lated distraction, hon. Speaker — a distraction. with our children. If we want that, if we want to try Instead of parents being able to talk about class and achieve the goal that the government has set out sizes, and they would…. After September it's a new and that I quoted earlier, then we have to teach teach- school year. They are talking about that; they were ers fairly and, most importantly, with respect. talking about that. Instead of being able to talk about Teachers need to know that they are respected. class sizes and about the learning potential of their kids They need to know that the public, through our gov- to be improved, they're distracted into how their family ernment, are there for them to back them up and help is going to cope next week if the schools aren't open. them with their jobs, but this government can't seem to That's part of the plan, isn't it? It was part of the grasp this. government plan on the other side, all along. The gov- This legislation undermines the very foundation. It ernment may think it has hatched a clever, pollster- attacks the heart of what is fundamental to a successful inspired plan to pit parents against teachers, but here's public education system. For that reason, it must be where they're wrong. There is going to remain a seri- withdrawn. Again, I go over some of the facts — the ous question for them next week and well beyond. The tragic circumstances, I guess — around this dispute. In question that people are going to ask, if not already, of B.C., rightly so, parents expect the government to work this government is: what are you going to do for the with teachers, not against them. They expect the gov- school children of B.C.? What are you going to do for ernment to improve education for their children. The the school children of B.C. families? What are you go- sad reality — the spectacle of Bill 12 — is that this gov- ing to do to improve learning conditions and class sizes ernment has let parents and their children down. in our schools across this province? The government didn't need to take this confronta- Another question that will be raised right across tional approach. I talked about the new times we're in, B.C. is: what are you going to do with the demoralized which the government is unable to see. They're unable and disrespected teaching profession that doesn't trust to see the failure of the logic they presented four years you? Yes, this government is going to reap what ago in so-called bad times, so they still continue to offer they've sown from their tough choices. They will in- that up as the excuse for not finding a way through the deed. Bad choices — that's what they are. impasse today, in 2005 — to not recognize the new How is bitterness throughout the school system circumstances we're in. They didn't need to take this going to make British Columbia the best-educated, confrontational approach. most literate jurisdiction on the continent? That's one of This legislation increases the level of confrontation, the great goals for a golden decade. How is bitterness and unfortunately, it does nothing at all to improve going to do that? This isn't a great goal. It's a purely learning in the classrooms across British Columbia. It cynical, political calculation and nothing more. It's an- was there; the fact-finder did provide an opportunity other lofty bit of hyperbole that hopes to gloss over the for some substantial progress to get us through this quagmire that we're headed into. Next week, instead of week, and perhaps to have further, fruitful discussions lessons in school that would support the creation of a next week, to maybe get some trust back between both better-educated, literate jurisdiction, instead of those the parties that there was encouragement for them to lessons in schools that would promote those goals in talk and things being talked about that were important drama, languages, mathematics and reading, the lesson to both sides. the government is providing to our kids is one of con- The rhetoric on the opposite side is very good at flict. times about the goals they have for this population. They They're going to learn about the use of power and should be talking to teachers — they're important stake- authority to force an outcome, and they're going to live holders — about how they're going to put their re- with the consequences, unfortunately. It's their educa- sources in to make it happen. It won't. It's cheap talk in tion that's being affected. Kids are learning that the this House and elsewhere if the government's going to people they trust most in their lives — and those peo- say one thing and do another. The unfortunate thing, ple are parents and teachers; those are the people that though, is that this mandate so far is continuing on very kids trust most in their lives — are being set against much like the last mandate of the government. It is a one another by the government. government that, unfortunately, chooses confrontation. These trusted people are the very people that school children need in their lives if they're going to C. Wyse: As I begin tonight, I am going to reflect succeed in school, complete school and do well. very briefly upon a small part of my conversation with

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 619 the House from last night, which I would simply like to I encourage the government to reflect upon the ration- point out to the hon. members across from me, in case ale for not proceeding further with this particular mo- they were not in the House when I spoke. tion. I encourage us here to find ways out of this con- [2235] frontational situation that we find ourselves in. I would remind the House that I am a retired school I would like to read some reports from two differ- teacher of 35 years. The first year that I taught was in ent sources that are reporting what is going on around 1969. I taught seven classes that averaged…. Pardon this particular situation here in British Columbia. I me. They didn't average; there were more than 40 stu- have chosen one from Toronto, and I have chosen one dents in each one of those classes. I mentioned to the here from Victoria. House that it was my opinion that no one in this House [2240] would describe that situation as an ideal learning situa- Firstly, from Toronto: tion for students. I did point out that that was 1969. I Relations between the government and the leadership of then went on and drew — through other pieces of cor- the B.C. Teachers Federation have hit yet another low, respondence that I received from Cariboo South — while the level of acrimony and mistrust between the from a variety of different sources that were now re- two sides may have reached a new high. porting that those numbers of 40 students in classes The Premier faces a problem… had once more reappeared in the year 2005. Mr. Speaker, I've taken a little bit of liberty here. I'm I mentioned last night, and I repeat it here tonight, trying to learn the rules of politeness in the House, so I that it has been my experience that if the teachers did have chosen to remove some names that have been not demand learning and working conditions for the mentioned in the article to put it into what I under- students, no government — and I repeat, no govern- stand to be the correct form here in the House. I do ment — ever offered to improve the classroom situa- wish to advise that I have taken a little bit of liberty tion for the child. That was the bottom line. That was here as I put the direct quote into the record. If I've the end of the story, and there were no exceptions. missed some, I very much request your guidance to I speak in favour of this motion that we have in make sure that I get back on the straight and narrow. front of us. But before I go there and further develop With that: this rationale, I would like to recognize the people that …that has worsened under his watch and threatens to are in the gallery here tonight. At this particular late wreak havoc with the "golden decade" he foresaw in the spring election campaign. …While he certainly deserves — time, I find it interesting and I draw the attention of his share of blame for this utterly dysfunctional state of my hon. members here in the House — that we actu- bargaining between the two sides, he does not stand ally do have people that are here following this particu- alone in that regard. Far from it. lar debate. I would also like to recognize the people The article goes on: following this debate on TV. While they don't like hearing it, the leadership of the B.C. Personally, being a rookie, I have been somewhat Teachers Federation is in a large part responsible for the surprised at the correspondence in all the different horrendous relationship it has had with government over forms and the number of people that, in actual fact, the years, particularly with the Liberals. That leadership, have been following the debate in the House around as much as anything, has politicized and poisoned the bargaining process. this particular issue. I did find it somewhat surprising, I was very pleased this morning to hear a report in the great amount of scrutiny that the community here the House from the Minister of Labour to indicate that, in B.C. does have us under as we go through the im- in actual fact, the teachers have shown a willingness to portant debate here around Bill 12. I would like to in- move in improving that particular relationship, and I vite the public to come down and join us here while we will come back, later on, to why I believe it rests with continue on with this important debate. the government to also move in that area. Now, I do wish to go back and discuss with the House why I'm in favour of the motion that is here in Back to the article: front of us. I accept the golden rule, number one, which Teachers are effectively powerless under the bargaining system that the Liberals put in place. In practical terms, the government has placed in front of us. I have lis- because the government made education an essential tened to it many times over the last several weeks to service, going on strike for any period of time to apply months, and I am absolutely, positively convinced that pressure on their employer is not an option. the hon. members opposite sincerely and truly believe If the teachers don't like what they're offered at the in the goal that they have set. It's their number-one bargaining table, that's too bad. It's take it or leave it. And goal, and I will read it: "Make B.C. the best-educated, if they leave it, the government introduces legislation to most literate jurisdiction on the continent." As I've impose the contract on them anyway. That is a horrible mentioned, I am convinced that my colleagues here in system and one that has contributed significantly to the present lamentable and quite serious state of relations be- the House do believe that, and I believe everyone tween the two sides. around the table does. However, the situation we have In the last deal the teachers signed with the New here is the methodology with which we attempt to gain Democratic Party government, they accepted a zero-zero- and achieve that particular goal, and that is where the and-two-percent wage increase over three years. difference remains, in my mind. I emphasize here: That's where the debate and discussion is here to- In exchange, the government agreed to enshrine provi- night. It is on Bill 12. I support the motion to remove it. sions about class size limits, levels of special needs sup-

620 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005

port and speciality teacher ratios in the collective agree- In other words, things are pretty unchanged from ment. What did the Liberals do when they got into the last dispute in 2002. power in 2001? They ripped up that contract and But the situation has changed since then. Education fund- stripped away those same rights for which teachers had ing hasn't been cut, but neither has it kept up to rising just bargained. People wonder why teachers out here are costs. Past salary hikes were never funded. It takes more more angry and demoralized than ever before. to heat schools, to run buses, to buy textbooks and soccer Recognizing that something needed to be done balls and cleaning supplies. School districts have re- about the mess it had partly created, the government in sponded to the budget pressure by increasing class sizes, 2003 appointed former Deputy Education Minister — paring days from the school calendar, charging students I'm going to change it to Mr. Wright. to ride the school bus, making families pay for courses — to look into creating a better bargaining system. that used to be free. The Premier has ordered an industrial inquiry com- Teachers, even those less militant than their union, missioner to till the same soil as Mr. Wright. He has re- are frustrated by how hard it is to do a good job. Don't fused, however, to commit the government to any of the buy into an oversimplified notion that this dispute is commissioner's recommendations, which makes you about pay. A BCTF survey of teachers this year found: 77 wonder why he bothers. But the disintegrating relation- percent have more special needs students than in the ship between the BCTF — and, by extension, the prov- past; 87 percent said those students have a wider range of ince's tens of thousands of educators — and the govern- needs; 74 percent of teachers have reduced involvement ment could, in short order, devolve into a full-blown cri- in extracurricular activities. Given the chance to start sis. over, 63 percent would choose teaching as a career. "Something has to be done and, it seems to me — ″ It's the last two numbers that set off alarm bells, indi- Name omitted. cating an unhealthy degree of disenchantment and dis- “ — instead of attempting to score cheap political points engagement.… with the public by bashing teachers, is going to have to Winning a military campaign is easy when you have demonstrate much more leadership on this issue than he all the bullets, but building peace is more complicated. has up until now." That goes for the leadership of the Even ideological warfare can leave kids as collateral BCTF, too, which needs to try a little less hostile ap- damage. proach to bargaining. Now to Victoria, from the Times Colonist. The head- [S. Hawkins in the chair.] line is: "Teachers, B.C. Government Locked in Ideologi- cal Warfare." My understanding is that as a member of Now, I mentioned earlier I was also going to intro- the opposition, I fit somewhat into that phrase of "B.C. duce one piece of correspondence that I received from government," so I am here attempting to convince my my riding back in Cariboo South. The intent of this hon. members across the table to change their position piece of correspondence is to set the tone on why I'm in on what we are debating here on Bill 12 and voting for favour of this particular motion to have the bill hoisted. hoisting the bill. I read a letter that had been sent to one of our hon. [2245] ministers of the government that we share here. It Back to the description here in Victoria. reads: The imposition of a contract covering the rest of the I am a classroom teacher in Williams Lake, B.C., and just school year had to be expected. As we all now know, 35 read the news report from Canadian Press in which the bargaining sessions produced less movement than Imo- hon. minister is quoted as saying: "It is not the kind of ex- dium. The Finance Minister…made it clear in the Sep- ample you would expect from people who are teaching tember 14 budget update that there was no money for a our children. When you're a law-abiding citizen, you pay increase. don't get to pick and choose which laws you want to Previous disputes have proven that the teachers' abide by." right to strike is, in reality, nothing more than the right to As a classroom teacher, and as a citizen of what was briefly threaten child care arrangements and mess up the once the finest province in the finest country in the basketball season, with any further disruption being world, I have to take exception to both these remarks. headed off by back-to-work legislation. So the govern- Law-abiding citizens do not break laws that are just, rea- ment figured what the heck, it might as well end the cha- sonable and protect the tenets of society. Law-abiding rade and impose a settlement now instead of making citizens understand the meaning of democracy, of civility everyone go through the motions and end up in the same and of due process. In the course of the last four and a place anyway. half years during which your government has been in It's not as if the Liberals were worried about losing power, all I have seen is an erosion of democracy, civility friends, having long been locked in ideological warfare and due process. with the B.C. Teachers Federation, which they seem to regard as the unholy love child of Mary Poppins and Joe [2250] Stalin. The perpetually dissatisfied union, for its part, The International Labour Organization, which is a spent $1.5 million on third-party advertising in this year's branch of the United Nations, has condemned your gov- election campaign, which didn't actually get it on Pre- ernment more than once for breaking international law mier Campbell's Christmas card list. by legislating what you call collective agreements. I use that term because the agreement is neither collective nor an agreement. Canada is a signatory to the convention of Deputy Speaker: Order. No names. that organization and therefore should be abiding by the rules. C. Wyse: I extend my apology. I thought I had Apparently, your government has chosen not to fol- caught them all. low those rules. The courts determined that the arbitrator

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 621

who stripped contracts for class size and composition schools closed all over the province — a dozen of language had overstepped his mandate and gone too far which were in single-school communities. If I have with the contract cuts he made. Your government's re- time, I am going to take this House to Cariboo South, sponse was to write a new law. Very clever. If we don't and I will describe some of these communities to you, like a law, change the law when the courts rule against you. because I happen to be representative of school dis- Now you are spending more taxpayer dollars by tricts that, in actual fact, have many single schools in challenging our right to talk to parents about what is them. They had more of that type of a situation a very happening in our classrooms — in the Supreme Court of short time ago. Canada, having taken that fight to the lower courts in [2255] British Columbia and lost every time. Again, if you don't I'm hoping that I will have time to get there, but like the way a law is interpreted, spend more money to unfortunately, they've only given me half an hour to try to get the ruling overturned, even though freedom of make my case. But I may get another opportunity to speech is enshrined in that most democratic of documents, our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. come back and discuss this further. I sincerely hope I hope that Martin Luther King and Gandhi are the that I am going to have that opportunity, because this heroes in your eyes that they are in mine. They chose to issue is important for us to be debating and discussing break unjust laws. I hope you regard the work of Otto for as long as necessary in order to get this confronta- Schindler in saving Jews from the Nazi storm troopers as tion out of the discussion that is represented here in heroic work, yet he broke the law. Bill 12. My job as a teacher is to create citizens who can think Now, back to my case. I get distracted too easily. for themselves, who recognize injustice when they see it I'm sorry, Madam Speaker. I apologize for that. and are willing to stand up for what they believe is right. If I'm setting a bad example to the children in my room, Education funding was frozen for three years while then so be it. That's the cross I'll have to bear until they the downloading of millions of dollars of costs onto the have the learning conditions they deserve. I bear that local school boards required the local school boards to cross willingly in education. make a number of forced cuts in programs to pay for And it is signed. the necessary anticipated costs in other areas, since Back to the motion on why I wish to encourage this they are not allowed to plan for a deficit budget. Makes government to support the motion. We require some sense to me. time in order to deal with this situation. We require The results, though, don't make as much sense to some time to address the issues that affect the condi- me. I wish to now remind the House of some examples tions of the learning environment for our students. We of increasing cost pressures here. Teachers' salary in- require some time to provide for the needs that are creases that were legislated were not funded, and those requested by our parents of those very students that are ongoing costs. They have to be made up by the have elected us here to serve after these needs. local boards on an ongoing basis. I do know that many When we have a look back over the situation and of the hon. members on the other side of this House, why we're here, the responsibility for this crisis rests with their business experience, understand very clearly with the decisions that have been made by the gov- the significance of being given an inflationary cost that ernment over the last number of years. As I mentioned was never funded to begin with, and the liability that yesterday, the government has, to now, chosen a stays with a group right throughout each year. It is method of solution, of conflict and confrontation, as the compounded as each year passes. The cuts become first option. For a number of years this government has more severe in order to deal with that set of financial deliberately pursued actions that provoke the conflict circumstances. with teachers. I wish to mention four or five of them. The ongoing salary creep that takes place as teach- The contract was torn up in 2002. Teachers were ers move up their salary grid. MSP increases that were stripped of their self-governing body in 2003. There a result of legislation passed by this House here — a was a B.C. Supreme Court decision overruled on class- huge increase of costs that the boards had to pick up. room composition in 2004. The teachers were used as Not minor costs of a few tens of thousands of dollars; political pawns in the 2005 election. There was a refusal we're talking of hundreds of thousands of dollars in to meet with teachers when the Premier had a chance this particular case. Again, a creeping inflationary cost to make progress. that has an effect that goes on and on and on. This legislation here, Bill 12, clearly, in my opinion, Utility increases. When I was looking at doing this, increases the level of confrontation with teachers and I wrote down "hydro" here. I have absolutely no idea does nothing to improve the learning conditions in the what I was doing when I wrote down just simply "hy- classroom. That very much is my opinion. I have dro," because where I'm from, the hydro in some of our shared the experience with you, and I bring that most places has to be made with gasoline in order to deal sincerely in front of you. with the school. In a district like where I'm from and The government's record on education over the represent, Cariboo South, that becomes even more in- past four years has hurt education. I mentioned these flationary. last night, but now, in trying to convince my col- Then of course we have the transportation costs. As leagues, I would remind once more of the 2,500 teach- we are well aware here, as is everyone here in British ing positions and increased class sizes across B.C. as a Columbia, the price of fuel has accelerated extensively. result of decisions made here in this House, over 113 Our districts like Cariboo South that have winters in

622 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 them that require heating costs are going to have fur- such novel things as reducing class sizes to give stu- ther inflationary aspects that come into place. dents more support and attention; increasing teacher- I would like to come back to the situation around librarians, counsellors and special education support; the declining enrolment coupled with the declining increasing funding for kids with special needs — I number of teachers. The student enrolment decline has know the next one is very much within the tone and been about 3 percent overall. However, the situation feeling of this particular House here, as we have heard we have with the reduction in teachers is about 8 per- in the throne speech — improving opportunities for cent. That has led to over 2,500 fewer teachers now aboriginal children and inner-city kids; stopping arbi- than in 2001. In specific areas there have been notice- trary school closures and creating a dedicated fund to able reductions. I mentioned those last night, but I in- help school boards deal with declining enrolments and tend to repeat them here once more for the record. Spe- large geographical disbursements; connecting high cial education teachers are down by 17.5 percent. school students to apprenticeship and training pro- Teacher-librarians are down by 23.4 percent. Counsel- grams while in high school. lors are down by 9.5 percent. ESL teachers are down by We're stealing a little bit here…. 20 percent. [2300] Deputy Speaker: Thank you, member. Changes made by the government mean that there [2305] is no longer automatic reduction in class size when special needs students in the classroom reach a certain C. Wyse: I'm so sorry. number. Combine this with the reduced number of special education teachers, and there's a real problem with support in our schools. C. James: I think you can hear the passion with When we talk about class size and learning condi- which our members on this side of the House are here tions, it is not simply an issue of the number of stu- debating this legislation and debating the amendment dents that are found in a class. It also includes the mix to the second reading to hoist Bill 12. of what the grade composition is, as well as the indi- I want to start off by talking about our education vidual needs of the students that are contained within system in the broadest sense, because Bill 12 has a huge it. impact on our education system, and I think it's impor- I do not believe for one second that the hon. mem- tant for all of us in this House to reflect on what our bers do not understand that particular piece of infor- education system truly means. Danton, the revolution- mation I share with them. But in ignoring it, with Bill ary French leader who helped give birth to the first 12 and the effect that it has upon the situation, the French republic, said more than two centuries ago: learning conditions for the students that are expected "After bread, education." Danton's famous quote re- by the parents here in British Columbia no longer reminds all of us that education is the most basic neces- main acceptable. sity after those that are vital to life itself: food, clothing Bill 19 in 2004 — that's the Education Services Col- and shelter. lective Agreement Act, 2004 — overturned a B.C. Su- Education is key to our development, to our de- preme Court ruling that said classroom composition mocracy, to alleviating poverty and to ensuring a fu- should remain as part of the collective bargaining ture for our children, our families and our communi- process. This government threw that court decision out ties. Education truly is the cornerstone of our society, so it wouldn't be caught breaking the law. and the fact that we're here tonight to argue about the It all adds up to bigger class sizes around the prov- imposition of a bill, Bill 12, speaks to the fact that we ince and less individual attention for all students in the can't take support for our education system for classroom. Through a freedom-of-information request, granted. we know of the provincewide total of 487 science eight History's greatest minds have recognized the su- classes. I will give you that number again. Of a preme importance of education. For John Adams, a provincewide total of 487 science eight classes, 137 founding father of the American republic, the liberty of have 30 or more students. We're going back to 1969. I a people could not be preserved without it. The Ameri- point out that year that nobody has debated. It was not can President John F. Kennedy said: "Liberty without an ideal learning situation. Of 454 social studies nine learning is always in peril, and learning without liberty classes, 189 have 30 or more. Of 455 English 11 classes, is always in vain." To Nelson Mandela, education is the 126 have 30 or more, and the list goes on and on and most important and powerful weapon you can use to on. change the world. Around the world, a strong, accessi- These are some of the reasons. I hope I'm not run- ble public education system drives positive social ning out of time. I'm just getting going. Madam change. Speaker, maybe you could help me here. Can I ask for That's true for economic growth as well. Education somebody else's time? Apparently not, so I hope I've drives human and social capital growth and fuels di- got a lot of time left. rect economic advancements. "National innovation is Our commitment. I believe it's fair that we put a related to spending on education," said Porter and solution here in front of the House. We are committed Martin for Industry Canada in 2001. "Jurisdictions that to ensuring B.C. children's success in the classroom by invest in education will be the ones to succeed in this

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 623 new century," said the Finance Minister from Mani- ing teaching or leaving special ed. The more work I do, toba. the more they expect of me. I've always loved teaching, We know that our education system plays a critical but I'm struggling with my job because I'm not able to meet the needs of students. role in the social and economic fabric of our society. And another comment, Madam Speaker: "Too What saddens me tonight is that the critical role of many students in each class with too many diverse education in B.C. is being undermined by this govern- needs, combined with too few essential resources like ment and its confrontational approach to our education textbooks and too little support, is a disgrace. It's not system. fair to my students, and it's not fair to the families that In my first response to Bill 12, I noted the impor- we are accountable to. The changes I've seen are as- tance of the partners in our education system and how tounding, and the last three years, in particular, have critical it is to make sure that all the partners work to- been incredibly stressful." gether to make our schools the best they can be. Locally elected school boards, administrators, support staff, parents, students and, yes, teachers all have a neces- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] sary role in ensuring that our system works well. What helps those partners work together? What are the keys Those are personal stories from teachers who know to a successful team, whether it's in the education sys- first hand the impact of this government's decisions. tem, a business or an organization? When we all know the importance of an education sys- [2310] tem, when we all recognize the importance of all the I'd like us to just take a minute to look at the partners in the system working together…. This is the needed ingredients for a successful team: clear goals, a record of this government. This is the government leg- vision, effective communication, address issues and acy in education, despite what the government's throne resolve conflicts, and build trust and respect. speech documents say. I want to focus just for a moment on the last item in [2315] this list: build trust and respect. If this government This government puts words to paper but doesn't cared about supporting our education system and en- seem to recognize that actions speak louder than suring that all the partners in our system are working words, and that people appreciate hearing the words, together to support our students, a goal we should all but the words don't help that student who isn't getting be working towards, then I have to tell you that they the assistance that they need. The words don't help that have a very strange way of showing it. This govern- library with no teacher-librarian. Words don't help that ment has failed to meet that necessary ingredient for student without a textbook or the student with special our education system in so many ways, and Bill 12, needs who can't attend school on certain days because sadly, is one more example of that failure. Bill 12 has the assistant time isn't there. Words alone don't do the done more damage to an already damaged relationship job, and this government needs to understand that. between this government and teachers, a damaged What could have happened, Mr. Speaker? If this relationship that this government has yet to accept any government truly cared about education, what could responsibility for. they have done? I've heard the Minister of Education, I've heard this government say that they've sup- the Labour Minister and other government members ported education, so I'd like us to just take a moment speak to the fact that the system has been broken for a and look at the facts. This government began their long time and that they're sad we're at this place again. mandate in 2002 by ripping up the teachers' contract Well, leadership means facing a challenge and doing with no discussion, no debate and no conversation something about it. Leadership doesn't mean accepting with the people who were directly impacted by that what is. It means seeing the challenge and finding solu- decision. What was the result of that decision? Some tions — something that this government doesn't un- 2,500 teaching positions were lost around this province, derstand or perhaps doesn't wish to understand. 113 schools closed in just four years and education Teachers offered to meet with this government. funding was frozen for three years while this govern- Teachers offered to not escalate their job action but sit ment downloaded costs onto school boards. down with government and find a solution. Teachers I'd like to share with you just a few comments from offered to meet all day today, all day tomorrow, all teachers in the school district that I represent, which evening and all weekend, if necessary, to find a solu- will show you the personal impact of these decisions. tion. What's the result? We're here in the Legislature This is from a teacher of 25 years: debating the only solution that this government seems The multiple roles that I'm now expected to perform in to see, which is using the legislative hammer. That's my job — learning assistance, ESL, special education, not good enough for the students and the parents of regular teaching, enrichment teaching — are making it British Columbia. impossible for me to do any one of them well. I have had That doesn't build trust and respect, which I talked to do 23 annual education plans and approximately 25 about earlier as being a key ingredient in building a individual education plans. This year I have three days, total, as release time. successful team. That certainly doesn't support stu- The computer program we use to do all of these dents. And it doesn't build the best education system plans can only be accessed at school, and only one staff possible. It's a sad day in British Columbia that the person can use it at a time. I think all the time about leav- government is going down this path again. It's even

624 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 sadder when we look at what an amazing education even having been transferred to other schools in the system we have here in British Columbia, an education city, have continued to volunteer time serving on the system that could be the best in this country, with some James Bay Community School board. The teachers respect and some support from government. have done that because, as we know on this side of the I'm incredibly fortunate. I attended school right House, teachers care about their community. here in Victoria in this riding that I proudly represent. At George Jay Elementary School, a wonderful Both my children attended school here in Victoria in school in Victoria's inner city, teachers have had a this riding that I represent. I was also a foster parent for dedicated focus on improving literacy. Teachers have 20 years, and many of the children that I cared for also worked together, changing lunch hours and recess attended school in this riding that I represent. As with breaks, to make sure that their students receive an un- all children, my children and my foster children had interrupted block every day to have the whole school different strengths and different needs. Teachers had a working on literacy. It's made a profound difference to huge impact on their lives. student achievement. I also know that at George Jay I want to talk about the schools in my riding of Elementary we have a chess club where members from Victoria–Beacon Hill for a moment. I think of the Rotary come in and work with teachers and students in teachers at Vic West Elementary and believe they the school to provide an opportunity for students that might have a thing or two to share with this govern- they wouldn't have otherwise — again, a teacher mak- ment. The teachers at Vic West have established an ing a difference in the lives of our students. amazing program with their students to educate them At Vic High, teachers are passionate about increas- about conflict resolution — something that the gov- ing the graduation rate of their students. This school ernment might want to pay attention to — training population is incredibly diverse, and it's a sad truth students in the art of mediation and resolving play- that a number of students in this school find them- ground disputes before they turn into something more selves living on their own. That creates huge challenges serious. It's something, as I noted, that the government for students who are determined to finish their educa- might want to pay attention to. tion. Teachers at Vic High, many on their own time, I also think of teachers like Allan Guvender at Sir make sure that their students are taken care of by en- James Douglas Elementary School. He's just one exam- suring that they are connected with the right commu- ple of educators who dedicate hundreds of hours every nity resources and counselling, and sometimes by the year to extracurricular activities. Allan can always be simple gesture of phoning them in the morning to seen working behind the scenes, helping with the an- make sure they're okay and coming to school. nual musical or organizing recess or basketball to help Teachers making a difference in the lives of stu- kids stay healthy. dents — that's why we're here today. That's why we [2320] are here on this side of the House. That's why we'll Keeping kids healthy is something that the teachers continue to be here, because it's critical for all of us to at Margaret Jenkins Elementary spend a great deal of remember that our lives have been hugely impacted by their time outside class hours doing, whether they're teachers. It is Bill 12 that is damaging the relationship going on swim-club nights, early morning starts for with teachers and that will ultimately create difficulty cross-country practice…. I can tell you that living in the for our education system, which we should be working neighbourhood, you can see — and I'm sure many of to improve. the MLAs who travel to this Legislature every day will see — children out exercising early in the morning. We [2325] must remember it's a teacher who showed up on that Finally, I'd like to acknowledge the teachers of early morning to make sure those students were out South Park Elementary School, which is just a stone's there enjoying themselves and getting healthy. throw from this building. In fact, many of the members I admire our teachers at Central Middle School, probably walk by South Park Elementary School as who not only inspire our students academically but they head to the Legislature each day. This school has a also encourage a strong sense of social responsibility in special place in my heart. It's a school that I attended, our students by encouraging them to give back to the that my children attended and where I began my po- local community, through projects like those in aid of litical career. I began my political career at South Park the homeless. In the past few weeks many Central Elementary by taking the students out on strike in teachers have shown their sense of fun by letting the grade seven when students weren't allowed to wear students dye their hair red and purple and green to pants to school on a rare day that it actually snowed in raise money for Cops for Cancer — again, an area Victoria. The members on the opposite side have South where our students are giving to the community. Park either to blame or to thank for my political career They're doing it with the help of our teachers in our beginning in Greater Victoria. school district. As I mentioned, my children attended there, and I The teachers at James Bay elementary school have was an active parent volunteer as well. It's a school also formed a true bond with their students and their where the children and the teachers work closely to- community. James Bay elementary school is James Bay gether, where parents have a direct impact on the lives Community School, designated as a community school, of their children. This tradition continues in this school, one of the first in the province. A number of teachers, and this year the school's curriculum at South Park has

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 625 been integrated with and around a celebration of abo- It's been an interesting week, and it's been a long riginal heritage. week. We've had a lot of discussion, a lot of emotion. I In classrooms in Victoria–Beacon Hill and through- want to take a few moments to comment on the words out this province, it's very clear that for our educators, of the member for Peace River South earlier today. I teaching is more than just a job. Teaching is a passion have a great deal of respect for that member, and he and a commitment for students and the community. spoke with passion and conviction about his personal It's a culture of passion and commitment that must be perspective on this issue. nurtured, not trampled. We can do that in many ways. But there's one simple way, and it has been mentioned [S. Hawkins in the chair.] over and over again in the debate on this bill over the last few days, and I'm sure you'll hear it again tonight. I have no doubt, no doubt whatsoever, that he and A way to resolve this issue is to show some respect for other members on the other side of this place feel our teachers. strongly about this issue. They feel strongly about edu- The bill before us does anything but show respect. cation, about teachers, students and parents. The lack of respect inherent in this proposed legislation However, where we divide on this question in this is a direct attack on the culture that has helped encour- Legislature is on where we should proceed from here. age the wonderful success stories that I have referred We've heard a lot about history. I was here for some of to today. that history. I played a role in it. I'll acknowledge that I rise to speak to this amendment because I know — a minor role, but I played a role in it. What we need from personal experience — in my own life, in my to do today, in unison as a Legislature, is look at the children's lives, in the lives of the foster children I situation we find ourselves in. looked after — the difference that teachers have made. At the start of the week the Minister of Labour in- I know how important it is to nurture the relationship troduced legislation to impose, for the second time in of everyone in the education system. this government's mandate, a contract on teachers in As I've mentioned in this House before, I served for this province. For the second time in the mandate of 11 years on a school board. I know the importance of this government, the Legislature was asked to use a supporting a team of people to make the education blunt instrument, when hard work, negotiation, tact system work. This bill, Bill 12, does nothing to help and diplomacy would have produced a better result. build that relationship. It does nothing to improve the We are here this evening proceeding to legislation relationships that are necessary for the success of an by exhaustion because those on the other side, al- education system that is, as I talked about at the start of though they speak passionately and eloquently about my talk tonight, critical to the success of us as a society, their golden goals, as we have heard so many, many critical to positive social change and critical to our eco- times from this side of the House…. We share the view nomic success. that education must be the highest priority of this Leg- I thank you for the opportunity to speak tonight. I islature and this government, and certainly we feel that would once again urge all the members on the other way on this side of the House. But you don't do that by side of the House to take some time tonight, when they playing politics. will have the opportunity to think, to think about a I see the member from Cloverdale. I'm hopeful that teacher that has made a difference in their lives, to he'll be heckling me soon, because it'll keep me in- think about the impact the education system has had spired over the next 20 minutes or so. on their own families and to think about their respon- What we saw today in the Legislature was the Min- sibility in making sure that we improve our education ister of Labour and other members on that side of the system and that we work together to make that hap- floor taunting us on this side. We're standing here. pen. We're trying to instil in this debate some sense of re- [Applause.] sponsibility for government to listen to what teachers [2330] are saying, listen to what students are saying, listen to what parents are saying and solve the problem. Blunt J. Horgan: I want to thank everyone for that rous- instruments are easy to use. Diplomacy, tact and hard ing applause for my leader and also for the beginning work are a little bit more difficult. of my remarks on the motion before us today. It's been We've had much time to do this. I don't want to a long week. I recall starting this debate with the Minis- spend too much time on this, but I recall being in the ter of Labour on Monday. Here we are on Thursday, hallway earlier in the week, and the media, as they and as I was advised by our House Leader, Thursday will, were having some sport with one of the ministers will last until Thursday ends. opposite who was new to his file, new to this place and It's an interesting way to conduct business. We find trying to find his footing. They were knocking him ourselves in a situation where we're going to have leg- around a little bit, and the spinners at public affairs islation by exhaustion. I know, Mr. Speaker, you'll be were running desperately to find ways to extricate him with us to the end, and I thank you for your contribu- from the situation. I had some sympathy for him. He's tion and your steady hand — and that of Madam a decent individual, a hard-working man. He just Speaker as well. stepped a little bit too quickly into the deep end of the

626 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 pool, and some of his colleagues, rightly so, were try- ual. I've received hundreds and hundreds of e-mails — ing to get him out of it. as have my colleagues — from teachers, parents and I made a comment to someone who I had worked students from right across this province. One individ- with in the past in this place. He spun to me, and he ual who happens to be a constituent of mine — I had said: "We'll get you next week." The implication of that no knowledge of this until I met him a couple of days was: "We're going to bring forward legislation to bash ago — decided that on a principle he would demon- teachers on the head, and it's going to be all your fault. strate to his students that if things are not the way they We're going to blame you for everything." That's re- should be in this life, you have options. grettable. It was a staff person; it wasn't a member of I've heard those on the other side say: "We have no this place. But it's regrettable that the culture on that choices in these matters. The thing is broken, and we side of the House — stay in the message box, do what can't fix it. We've got to move on. Oh, it's terrible. It we say, the polls say things are going fine…. was broken then, and it's broken now, but we're going I saw on a poll on BCTV this evening. Don't think to fix it. We're not sure how. We don't really have a it's going so well. plan. Since we got here, we just want to make you guys For those of you watching at public affairs, good on the other side look bad, and we want to bash teach- evening. I'm glad you're still with us. I know you don't ers." get overtime, but I'm sure you're working very hard. This teacher picked up the newspaper one day. He Those of you over there might want to reflect on those said: "There's a debate going on at the Legislature. poll numbers. Maybe I should be participating in that as a citizen." So [2335] he got on his shank's pony, and he started walking to I believe it was somewhere in the neighbourhood of the Legislature. He walked here, Madam Speaker. He 80 percent of those polled who believed that the teach- felt so strongly about it — the blunt instrument being ers are on the right track, that class size is a significant used in this place — that he walked from his place of issue to student outcomes — the most important issue. employment. He took money out of his own pocket to Eighty percent. Holy cow. Holy cow, that's a big num- pay for a teacher on call so his students would be taken ber. That's probably resonating. That might be why we care of while he came down here on a point of princi- saw all of the spinners running around today, all the ple to demonstrate that if you see an injustice in this staffers from public affairs. "What are we going to do? world, you should stand up to it. That's what my mom What are we going to do? Advance the ball. Do some- taught me. I'm sure that mothers, on the other side of thing." the House, taught you that as well. If you see injustice You know what we should do, Madam Speaker? and intolerance, stand up to it. Roll up our sleeves. Sit down. Find a solution. Hard Mark Neufeld, school district 63 educator, Clare- work. Hard work is what got most of us into this place mont High School, constituent in Malahat–Juan de — I'm confident of that — on both sides of the House. Fuca, walked ten kilometres in the rain to stand here We're not here to cause strife and grief, but when we for the past 24 hours so he could have his say to the get captured by the spinners and the hacks, we're go- Premier of this province — laudable, commendable ing down a slippery slope. That's what's happened on and inspirational, Madam Speaker. As a result of that side of the House. Mark's efforts, there are 50 kids standing outside right I want to go back to the comments of the member now while we're in this place, and they're there sup- for Peace River South, because as I said earlier, I sin- porting their teacher, because they believe in that prin- cerely believe that this is a difficult issue for him and a ciple as well. He has inspired 50 kids to come down difficult issue for many others on the other side of the here in the rain while we sit in here and pontificate. House. This is your opportunity. We'll all be tired. I know that's a moving story for those on the other Come to your senses. Maybe the spinners have gone side as well. You can't help but be moved by that, home, and you can be released from their captive spell Madam Speaker. We all have had educators in our past and think for yourself. Think about what you're doing that have had an impact on our lives. I spent some sev- with this legislation. You're imposing a contract, for the eral hours on that subject earlier in the week. Some of second time in your mandate, on a group that is abso- you may have caught the rushes. I'm sure the public lutely vital to one of your golden goals. affairs bureau has sent you the scintillating bits for regurgitation at some point in the future. Deputy Speaker: Through the Chair, member. Nonetheless, I did speak about teachers that were significant in my life. I started in grade one with Mrs. J. Horgan: Madam Speaker, one of the most impor- Foster, and I made it to about grade three. My col- tant goals that you've got on your list of golden dou- leagues have been saying to me: "How far can we go, bloons is education and literacy. You can't do that John? How many more? We want to go to grade four." without teachers. [2340] The Minister of Labour earlier today, during ques- I will say grade four was a particularly interesting tion period, said: "What a shocking example teachers year for me, because I started with Ms. Fuller and are setting for students in this province." I want to tell a ended with Mrs. Churches — the same person. Ms. story. I mentioned it in question period today perhaps Fuller got married during the school year and became more emotionally than I should have. I met an individ- Mrs. Churches. That in itself was an education for me. I

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 627 was eight years old. I didn't know how these things Well, there are some kids that are in a classroom, and happened. How do you change your name? I mean, I'm they're saying that their firsthand experience is that it's quite serious when I say that. I learned something. So not working as well as it could. I've remembered Ms. Fuller and Mrs. Churches all They're making a suggestion to the government. these years because of that little bit of education I They made a suggestion to us. They're following the learned. lead of their inspirational teacher, Mark Neufeld. The following year in grade five was Mr. Davies; They're saying: "Our practical, firsthand experience" — grade six, Mr. St. Clair, who I wasn't overly fussed not the experience of those who haven't been in a class- with, but he did the best he could. He was old school, room in a good long time, those on the other side of the British accent — did the best he could. The other grade House who are saying: "Well, we'll just get through this six class was Mr. Taft. I'd like to speak about Mr. Taft stage. We'll play a little bit of politics with students, for a moment, because he coached every team in the parents and teachers. We'll make a little bit of a mark school. He coached the soccer team. He coached the on the opposition because they're standing up for indi- volleyball team. He coached the basketball team, the vidual rights." They're standing up for the rights of track team and on and on and on. Lake Hill Elementary teachers. They're standing up for outcomes for stu- was his first and only school. He retired a couple of dents. They're saying to parents, as parents are saying years ago. We had a party for him. I'm sad to say that to us, that in order for your children to get the best he looked marvellous — 55 years old, and he looked education possible, they need the best and most highly like he was 26. Fit as the day he was born. motivated teachers possible. He played Stuffy McInnis baseball here in Victoria. There are kids outside this place right now confirm- I'm sure the member from Beacon Hill will know who ing that. They're confirming it by saying: "It could be Stuffy McInnis was. That's the name of the fast pitch better." league here in Victoria. Mike Taft was a star in that I'll read on. This is Tim and Fraser, as I said earlier: league. He played. He didn't quite make it to the Bates It makes for an uncomfortable and unacceptable working team but was an outstanding individual. I didn't have environment. We are having trouble getting the attention him as a teacher, but I had him as a coach on the soccer and help we need in order to succeed to the best of our team, the basketball team and the volleyball team. abilities. Grade seven was Mr. Smith, and then I was off to In order to succeed to the best of our abilities — we Reynolds. I'll leave that for a minute and get back to all remember that, don't we? Our mothers and fathers, Mark Neufeld, because that's the story that's inspired our parents, our families said: "We need to get the best me this week. It's inspired my colleagues, and I know out of you." How do you do that? With the best teach- it's inspired some of the children. They're in the gal- ers possible, with the most motivated teachers and lery today for the first time, observing the democratic with teachers that are inspired by the work that they process. do. I have to give credit to the Minister of Labour for We have teachers in our caucus. There are teachers introducing this bill. Were it not for the draconian on the other side. They were inspired to become teach- measures of this government, those children up there ers because they had a calling. Mark Neufeld had a wouldn't have been observing democracy as we're do- calling, and thank goodness he did, because now there ing it right now. I commend the minister for bringing are 50 kids, some of them in here right now, watching in the bill for that reason alone and no other. democracy unfold. We've got 50 kids from Claremont school out front [2345] because of their teacher. Their teacher walked down They're probably saying to themselves: "What's this here on a point of principle, and they've been sending all about? What's the deal with that?" I bet they're say- us some notes. I want to read one here. It's from Tim ing to themselves: "It's almost midnight." It is just Gratto and Fraser McMillan. It goes as follows: about midnight. All these adults are sitting in a room As two grade 12 students currently at Claremont, we — a very nice room, an opulent room, beautiful wood, take our education, especially for this year, very seri- ornate lightbulbs. What are they doing? They're talking ously. Because this year is so important, as it helps shape about us. They're talking about education. They're talk- the rest of our lives, we are very concerned about the way things are being run. ing about lifting us up. That side believes they're on the right track. We believe they're on the wrong track. Well, good for them. I'm concerned about the way things are being run as well. So are all of my colleagues The teachers who are outside, the students who are in on this side of the House, and I'm certain, if we let the the gallery — they concur with us that you're on the public affairs bureau people go for a bit, that people on wrong track. A blunt instrument is easy to use. Diplo- that side of the House will be concerned as well. macy, tact, hard work, negotiation, give and take — that's We have noticed our teachers struggling to keep on top tough. That's hard work. That's what this government of things due to large class sizes. They're becoming tired could have done 18 months ago. That's what the govern- and overworked, and this has a negative effect on us. ment could have done 12 months ago. That's what this Wait a minute. That's not in the message box. In the government should have done after the election. message box from public affairs on that side of the What did they do instead? They politicized an al- House, they're saying: "Get the kids in the classroom." ready inflamed situation.

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They commissioned a fact-finder. I spoke about this don't want to do it, don't do it. That's why we've intro- earlier, and some of my colleagues have touched on duced this hoist motion. Let's take this bill, let's throw this as well. They commissioned a fact-finder: Rick it out for awhile, and let's call up the B.C. Teachers Connolly, a capable man. I've known him for some Federation and the BCPSEA and say: "Why don't we all time. I'm quite comfortable with his report. He talked get together and solve the problem?" to both sides. Well, he talked to the one side. He talked That's not the way they're operating on that side of to teachers and said, "What are the facts on your side?" the House. What a great opportunity they have. The and they laid out in significant detail, I'm certain, the Premier and the executive council won re-election — situation as they saw it. the right and the obligation and the responsibility to Then he went to the BCPSEA and said, "What do govern British Columbia for the next four years. That's you think?" and they said: "We're not supposed to daunting, and I know it's difficult. I recognize from my think. We're not supposed to talk about wages. We're time as a staff person in this place that it's not easy do- not supposed to talk about working conditions. Every- ing your jobs. I understand that, and I respect you for thing's good on our side. We're ready to go. Let's nego- taking it on. I'm genuine when I say that. tiate." [2350] It's easy to find facts when you're not allowed to However, what I want to do, as a newly elected talk about the two most significant components of a member in this place…. Shake it up a bit. Say to the labour negotiation — real easy. I bet the BCPSEA meet- spinners — you hired way too many of them, first of ing lasted about two minutes. "How's it going? What all: "We're not going to do that. We're going to sit are the facts on your side?" down, we're going to take a look at the situation, and Well, we've had a little bit of a glitch in the message we're going to try and fix it, not with politics in mind, box. Outside of this place, in the media, the Minister of not with advantage in mind, not with outmanoeuvring Labour is working very, very hard, taking that message the opposition, not with advantage with the media, not box and spreading it through the media to as many with advantage with any one group in society, but with people as he can that the parties had irreconcilable dif- everyone in mind." I say that because I've met indi- ferences. Memo to minister: "You are one of the parties. viduals and read stories and testimonials for the past You're the government of British Columbia. You're the week and beyond. one that's giving the mandate to BCPSEA." It's individuals like Mark Neufeld that inspire me. Disconnect. Something wrong here. These kids are He said: "This doesn't make any sense." He got out on up there going: "Okay, let's see. There's the govern- the road. I grew up in this town; I know this place. It's ment, and there are teachers — two sides in a labour a long way to Claremont. I wouldn't have walked it negotiation. The government says: "I don't want to when I was 20. This guy's almost 40 years old. He put have anything to do with that. Forget it; that's the his pack on his shoulder and started walking down the BCPSEA's job. But BCPSEA, before you enter into any street. Can you imagine that? He's so intent to make a negotiations, be sure you don't talk about money and point for students. working conditions." This guy is not a political guy. He's not a radical; I look to my colleagues. What outcome are you he's just a guy. He has a two-year-old at home. He said going to get with that? Pretty difficult. I look to the to his wife when he got up to go to work that day ear- students in the gallery, and I say: "That probably does- lier in the week: "What will I say to my son 20 years n't make much sense to you — a bit of a disconnect." It from now?" He'll be able to say proudly that when he certainly is for me and for my kids. I left home today saw injustice, he put down his tools, the tools of his and said to my boys: "I'll see you later. I might not be trade…. He's the coach of the basketball team. He loves home till tomorrow." The youngest one, Evan, said: basketball — passionate about basketball and sport. He "What's up, Dad? What's going on?" put those down and said: "I'm going to walk to the I said: "We're having a sleep-over. The Minister of Legislature of British Columbia, and I'm going to sit Finance is putting on the popcorn; we're going to have out on the steps until someone comes to reason, until a little bit of fun, watch some movies, have a chat. I'll someone comes to me and explains why it is that all of see you sometime tomorrow night." I missed the us here…." hockey game as a result of that. I'm prepared to miss I don't know how many university degrees would things that are important to me, because what's impor- be in this room right now. Imagine that. I've got two. I tant to this province and to the children and students know the member from West Vancouver's got a hand- in this province is that we get a resolution. ful. There are a lot of smart people in here — really, Now, I know that the members on the other side really smart people. But we can't figure this out? We believe that this bill resolves the debate, that we're just can't sit down and find accommodation? going to fix it with this blunt instrument. I harken back What message are we sending to those kids? Don't to the member for Peace River South, because I know bother getting an education. It ain't going to get you that for him, at least — and also, I believe, for the anywhere — maybe into this room at 12 at night talk- member from Comox — these are difficult issues. "No- ing about something that is the most ridiculous thing body wants to do this," say those on the other side. you could ever imagine. So 79 adults — bright, intelli- Well, let's try this. Again, it's for the children and gent people — come together and don't solve a prob- the students here in the audience. Let's try this: if you lem. They say: "Get me the spinners from public affairs.

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I need four pages to shoot on teachers, and then we can of this place who sent us here. We need to respect the move on. While you're at it, make sure the NDP looks people like Mark Neufeld, who walked here and bad. Make sure we force law-abiding citizens to the brought with him, like the Pied Piper, students from brink." That's what this government wanted to do. I Claremont Secondary School to watch democracy in don't believe that as individuals they wanted to do action, to watch us do our work, to watch us listen in- that, but collectively they came to that decision, and tently to each thing that we say — as the ministers that's why we're here today. That's why we have stu- across are doing right now. That's the respect that they dents in the gallery looking down on me yelling at you are teaching their students. That's what teachers do people across the way, through you, Madam Speaker, every single day. about the most inane of situations, the most ridiculous We find ourselves, just before midnight on the of conundrums. Thursday that may never end, talking about Bill 12. We're adults, all of us brought up well. Our parents We've suggested through our motion this evening that taught us all well, or we wouldn't be here. I'm con- we take this bill out of here. Let's have six months to vinced of that — each and every one of you on that think about it, and in the interim, I would urge the side of the House. Particularly, I keep talking…. Minister of Labour, the Minister of Education and the I don't want you guys to think that we're trying to Premier and the rest of executive council to huddle up encourage, or that I'm personally trying to encourage, together a bit. the member for Peace River South to come and join me You might even have an open cabinet…. You don't on this side, the side of reason. I know he'd like to be do that anymore. That's right. I forgot. You don't meet on the side of reason. He'd like his colleagues to say: in the open anymore. You just huddle with the public "Yeah, you're right. You're right, member for Malahat– affairs bureau and say: "How can we get political ad- Juan de Fuca. We shouldn't continue to play politics vantage out of students and teachers and parents in with children in this province. We should try and solve this province?" the problem. We should try and reach the golden goal If you weren't doing that, you could get together of the most educated and literate jurisdiction on this and solve the problem. Get together. Set an example for continent, bar none." Oh, that's the environmental goal. the students that are in the gallery today. Set an exam- I keep saying "bar none" because it sounds so neat. ple for the students that followed Mark Neufeld to this Bar none. During the election campaign, the Liberal place this evening in the rain to watch democracy in candidate running against me…. Every time we went action, to watch us work to make this world a better into a debate, she had her little book, and she kept say- place, to lift them up so that we can have the most lit- ing "bar none." I thought: why do you keep saying erate and educated jurisdiction in North America… that? Bar none — what does that mean? Bar none. It's not like an Eat More. It's not an Oh Henry. It's a bar Interjection. none. That just made no sense to me. Anyway, I'm a little bit punchy, and I know my J. Horgan: …bar none, says my friend from Skeena. leader told me not to be overly punchy. I do, as I see These are serious issues. We do take this seriously the time…. I don't know the colours, Madam Speaker. on this side of the House. Again I have to stress that I've mentioned that to you. You could maybe…. there are solutions available. We've been pointing them out for some time now. I don't mean any disrespect to Interjection. any member on that side of the House when I'm standing in my place. I know that in your hearts you want J. Horgan: Thank you very much. the best for this province, you want the best for the I mentioned Bob Denver and Gilligan's Island in my people in this province, and you want the best for stu- remarks earlier. As I said, my mother was widowed dents. when I was a youngster. I came home from school, and Where we differ profoundly is on where to proceed I was babysat by Gilligan. After Gilligan came Get Smart. from here. The Leader of the Opposition and this cau- If I could note the passing of Bob Denver, I should also cus were elected on a platform of balance. We didn't note the passing of Don Adams. Agent 86 had a signifi- come here to fight with you. You still want to fight cant role in my childhood. It helped with math. The 86, with us? Well, we don't want to fight with you. We 99, and 44 was the guy in the mailbox. want to help you find solutions. I'm sorry, Madam Speaker. Forgive me. That's why we continue to suggest that you sit [2355] down with teachers, sit down with other people in the Back to the point at hand. It's ridiculous that all of community. Talk to them. Listen to what they have to us here, with all of the education and all of the life ex- say. Incorporate their views and values in the policies perience, whether it be in business, in trade unions, in of the government of British Columbia, and we'll all classrooms, on farms, on the sea…. All of the experi- benefit from that, each and every one of us. It's not that ence we have in this place, and we can't put our heads big a challenge. We're bright people. together and come up with a solution to this problem. Again, the member from West Vancouver has a We can't all agree — as I agree with the member for handful of degrees. He's got lots to contribute to this Peace River South that we need to respect each other in place and to this debate. All of us do. That's why we're this place — that we need to respect the people outside here. That's why we ran for office. We didn't run for

630 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 office to make cheap political points on issues that af- Instead, it carries down this path, which will lead fect the lives of students in this province. us to absolutely nowhere — no prospect of settlement Listen up, folks. This is really important. It's mid- on the horizon, no prospect that the students of this night. It's midnight on Thursday, in the 38th parlia- province are going to enjoy the kind of peace in the ment of the province of British Columbia. We all have school system that is required in order to enable them an opportunity tonight to hoist this legislation, get it off to move forward with their education so they can par- this floor, come in here next week with a fresh start, sit ticipate fully in British Columbia's society and so they down with teachers, solve the problem, reach out to the will develop the kind of critical thinking skills that are leadership of the B.C. Teachers Federation, give a le- going to be needed to ensure that when they have the gitimate mandate to the BCPSEA, call in the school opportunity to elect members to this House, they will trustees and say: "What are we going to do with these be able to make wise and sensible choices. windfall resource revenues that we're blessed with in We have spent too long in our society creating this beautiful province? Let's put them into education myths. There is the myth of the overpaid teacher. There — not into nice baubles and baskets, but into kids, into is the myth of the teacher who arrives before class classrooms, into teachers." starts and leaves as soon as the last bell rings; the myth That's what we need to do. That's our role. That's of the teacher who doesn't care about the students; the our function. That's why we're here. I appeal to each myth of the teacher who gets the whole summer off, and every one of you on that side of the House. Listen who seems to be on holiday all the time. It's a myth to the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant, who that serves a certain political purpose. With the greatest said: "Let's get this bill out of here. Let's start again." respect, it doesn't reflect the reality of the teaching pro- We're prepared to do that — right now. Let's start fession in this province and the work and the contribu- again. Let's put the past four days behind us. Let's pre- tion they make to our society. tend it didn't even happen, and let's start again to find There is surely no more honourable profession in solutions… our society than that of being a teacher, of passing on from one generation to another the collected wisdom of Interjection. our society, garnered throughout a difficult history, all done with an end in mind. The end in mind is to create Deputy Speaker: Order. a better world, a world in which intelligent people would not be sitting in a chamber at midnight, treating J. Horgan: …not cheap political opportunities — to a group of its citizens in this way. find solutions. Why are we here? I come back to the myths. There Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to are lots of myths. There are the myths that somehow speak on this motion. I look forward to speaking later the bargaining process is going to get better if we just on in the day, the Thursday that may never end. jam the teachers into a contract till next year, if we say [0000] to them: "Notwithstanding that you've been trying to negotiate for months, notwithstanding that this gov- L. Krog: Noting the hour, I was sort of hoping that ernment has had four and a half years to work on this some miracle might occur in this chamber, that I would problem, notwithstanding all that, we're just going to, look across and there'd be some sort of reverse Cinder- essentially, force you back into the classroom regard- ella, and this government pumpkin would somehow less of what your feelings are and regardless of what turn into a carriage and transport us out of this ridicu- your students think." lous situation. Here we are in the middle of the night in I must say, having visited outside tonight on the the province of British Columbia speaking to a motion steps of this Legislature with some of the students, I to do what any logical and sensible person would want was impressed with their concern and their care and to do, and that is postpone this ridiculous bill, which is their willingness to participate in our democratic soci- designed to do nothing more than exacerbate the al- ety by showing by their support for the people who ready difficult relations between this government and play such an important role in their lives. the teachers of this province. I want to read something written by Natalie. She's The motion is to add a simple amendment and ask from Claremont. This is what she says. I'd like the Min- that this bill be read a second time six months hence. In ister of Education to listen very carefully, because other words, put it off. Do the sensible thing. Give an we've heard so much about how much money's gone opportunity, now that this government has finally back into the school system, how we're going to solve started to listen to teachers in this province, for the the textbook problems, how everything's going to be collective bargaining process to work. Obviously, it's rosy in the classrooms of British Columbia. "The grade too much to ask. nine and ten science classes at Claremont don't do I would have thought today, after the somewhat many labs, as the teachers consider it a safety hazard to fruitful meeting between the president of the BCTF and have 27-plus students moving around with chemicals." other leaders in this province and the Minister of La- [0005] bour, that something might have been forthcoming. Royal Oak Middle School had one portable the year The government had an opportunity to reconsider its she started there. Now they have five. "In the biology position, but it hasn't done that. 12 enriched class" — listen carefully; these are the kids

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 631 we want to really do something for — "kids have to the classrooms of British Columbia gets the good pub- share textbooks, as we are short. The textbooks we do lic education that they deserve. have were bought secondhand and have been high- We have asked more of our teachers than ever be- lighted from front to back. And to top it off, any stu- fore. This is not the world of 30 and 40 years ago. This dent who wishes to take the bus has to pay $120 for the is not a world where we have stay-at-home moms or year." dads. The vast majority of people in this province who Is this the best we can do in a province that this have children, in fact, work outside the home. We ex- year has a government that has spent so much of the pect more of our school system. We demand more. In time in this House in the last two weeks bragging doing that, surely, we have an obligation to step for- about — what is it? — a $1.3 billion surplus? In a prov- ward, step up to the plate and provide the funding ince so rich in revenue right now that we can give a necessary to ensure good quality public education. further corporate tax break to the corporate community, who not only didn't ask for it but were so shocked Interjection. at receiving it, they were speechless. Is this the best we can do? I'd like to think we could do better. I'd like to L. Krog: If the Minister of Education could be a think there was still some idealism left on the other little louder, I could perhaps actually hear her remarks side of the House. across the floor. I'm past 50 now, and my ears aren't Another student. He's a grade 12 attending Clare- what they used to be. mont. He said: My English 12 class has a provincial exam. We have 34 students and 31 desks. Hon. S. Bond: Well, I hope those stay-at-home That's 34 students and 31 desks — at least in this moms are listening, and dads. chamber we each get a seat. Students had to drop the class because of the desk situa- L. Krog: Ah, thank you. Now I can hear that. Very tion. The biology 12 class has 30 students — the district good. limit in a classroom with 24 desks. Students have to sit at a lab bench. Labs are impractical because of the size of the class. Grade nine and ten classes don't have lab access Hon. S. Bond: I hope they can…. half the time. At Mount Doug Secondary they have 41 [0010] students in their biology 12 class. My advanced placement world history class does not L. Krog: Exactly. Not everyone in this province have textbooks yet. enjoys that privilege, and stay-at-home mothers and It is October 7 now. fathers likewise appreciate the opportunity to be satis- The hallways are overcrowded between classes. It can fied that the children, when they go to school in this take five minutes to get through a hallway. With the province, get a first-class education. That means we shop, an unlimited class size is dangerous. The teacher cannot supervise 30 students in a shop with dangerous have to provide the kind of funding that's appropriate. equipment. You know, you could arguably say that the motion This is what Travis Stewart says: put forward by the member for Vancouver–Mount Our teachers deserve respect from the Liberal govern- Pleasant is, in fact, an act of charity on the opposition's ment. They put countless hours in before and after school part. There's an old saying in politics: "If your enemy's to help students with math and science because they digging a hole, don't stop them." What we have done cannot get time to help them during class. Some students on this side of the House with this motion is to give an have to share textbooks. We have to pay to use the school opportunity for this government to step back, stop dig- — bus over $100 a year. You say schools are better. Ask ging the hole, reconsider their position and take the us students what we think. We know they are deteriorating." famous second look that W.A.C. Bennett would have Yet what we hear from the other side is that things are been doing at a time like this. Sit down with the teach- just so much better. If ever the cliché about rose- ers in this province, and start making progress in order coloured glasses applied, it surely must apply on the to move us forward. other side of the House. We have created a society, and quite rightly so, Interjections. where we expect children who were formerly isolated in institutions to be integrated into our society to re- L. Krog: I hear the heckling across the House: "You main with their families and to be integrated and ac- never did it." commodated into our public school system. Some may suggest that's been a costly venture. I would suggest it Deputy Speaker: Order. is the hallmark of a civilized society that has come of age. But there is no sense pretending we have made any real progress if we do not provide the funding to L. Krog: Frankly, hon. Speaker, they've had four provide teaching assistants and reduced class sizes. and a half years on that side. That will enable that great and noble step to be done in a proper way, to ensure that each and every student in An Hon. Member: You had ten years.

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L. Krog: I'm sorry, but this is not a history lesson. The Global Competitiveness Report 2005-2006 has just We are living in the present, and we need to get on been issued — the World Economic Forum's report. It with the job and the task at hand. talks about the three pillars when it comes to formulat- ing the factors that go into explaining the growth of an Interjections. economy: the quality of the macroeconomic environment, the state of the country's public institutions and Deputy Speaker: Order. Order. the level of its technological readiness. [0015] L. Krog: What that requires is for mature people to Interestingly, this Geneva-based forum — which act in a mature manner and deal with fellow adults amongst other sources for its information pulls nearly responsibly. We cannot pretend to believe in this myth 11,000 business leaders in 117 countries — has discov- that I discussed earlier… ered that Finland is the most competitive country for three consecutive years over the United States of Amer- Interjections. ica. The top ten countries are Finland, the United States, Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Order. Sweden, Denmark, Taiwan, Singapore, Iceland, Swit- zerland, Norway and Australia. Canada is down at L. Krog: …that there is, in fact, any real employer number 14. other than the province of British Columbia — and the What does the chief economist and director of the government, which is now so interested in what I'm World Economic Forum's global competitiveness pro- having to say that they're looking and up and paying gram, Augusto Lopez Claro, say? The Nordic countries attention. I'm delighted to hear their voices. I only wish share a number of characteristics that make them ex- they were so willing to talk to the teachers of this prov- tremely competitive, such as very healthy macroeco- ince. We'd have a better chance at getting a settlement. nomic environments and public institutions that are What's really important here is that you have this highly transparent and efficient with general agree- opportunity. You should not turn down this opportu- ment within society on the spending priorities to be nity to take a step forward to ensure that we can re- met in the government's budget. solve this instead of continuing to exacerbate a rela- What are this government's priorities? You have a tionship that has been destroyed through the efforts of surplus. You have story after story that you've heard in this government. In the four and a half years you've this House over the last few days about the situation in had an opportunity to solve this problem, you now our public school system. You are well aware of the come before this House and say: "Oh, goodness. We've figures as they relate to the relative incomes of teachers got an emergency. We've got to get this bill jammed in this province compared to other provinces in Can- through. We've got to keep the members of this House ada. You have all of the evidence and the informa- here through the night, and as long as it takes in order tion…. to ensure that it happens."

Yet the Minister of Labour earlier this day clearly Deputy Speaker: Through the Chair, member, stated that there was no emergency. That's why we're please. here debating this bill in this manner instead of under the standing orders. This is no emergency. This represents, I might suggest, some kind of petty revenge, L. Krog: Sorry, hon. Speaker. perhaps, for what's happened in the past in this House, All of that information is, in fact, available. What's and I say once again that it's time to get beyond the the choice that this government has made? It is to pro- past. ceed with this bill. Responsibility for that, I suggest, When this session started, the Leader of the Oppo- lies squarely with the Premier and this government. sition made it clear, as did members on this side in They continue to choose conflict and confrontation as speech after speech, that we were prepared to enter their first option. They've taken a number of deliberate into a more cooperative dialogue with the government steps which, frankly, in this new session after the elec- of this province in order to enhance the interests of all tion of 2005 could have been different. British Columbians. Instead, we have now in front of How have they provoked conflicts with teachers in us the prime example of why that new relationship this province? They tore up the contract in 2002. They may, in fact, founder. We must not toss aside this op- stripped them of their self-governing body in 2003 and portunity. overruled a B.C. Supreme Court decision on classroom I've heard a great deal about how well the province composition in 2004. is doing and how it all has to do with taxation policy. I Earlier today we heard the inference on this side of just want to commend to the other side of the House a the House from the government: "Oh my goodness, rather fascinating article by Gabriel Yiu. He is an those teachers are going to go out on an illegal strike. award-winning commentator, a broadcaster, a former Isn't that just awful? That's a terrible thing. Of course, columnist at the Vancouver Sun, Business in Vancouver that opposition is going to be out there supporting and Ming Pao, and he writes for Chinese newspapers. them and doing something illegal." Yet this govern- It's an article about global competitiveness. ment overrules a Supreme Court decision.

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I have a little lesson in law for the government side. We know that student enrolment declined only by The lesson is this. Laws in our system are made not just 3 percent overall. Yet we have a reduction in teachers by Legislatures. They are made by court decisions. by 8 percent. Then I come to that statistic which other When you show no respect for courts, it should come members have quoted in this House and which I want as no surprise that there's no respect shown for teach- to repeat. I want to repeat it and repeat it and repeat it ers and public employees. until everyone in this House remembers it: teacher- The teachers in this province were used as political librarians down by 23.4 percent. pawns in the 2005 election. Now, having won that elec- What are the great promises? The most literate and tion, instead of showing some magnanimous spirit, educated society. The last time I checked, in order to be some generosity, this government has instead chosen literate, you have to read. I believe that's what the defi- to forge ahead with an unnecessary bill to force teach- nition is — that if you're literate, you're capable of ers to accept a continuation of a contract that's now a reading. I don't know how children learn to read or year and a half out of date. have the full opportunity to learn to read if they don't When I hear this government talk about the state of have access to libraries. education and their record, and they talk about 1,600 If you have libraries like you do in school district new teachers this year across the province…. They cut 68, in Nanaimo, the riding I represent, where you get a 2,500 positions in this province. They will say, of 0.6 librarian who has to service several schools, when course: "No, the school boards did it." It's just a little they're not there, the library's locked. Well, I guess it hard to accept that school boards did it, when the must give children the idea, at least, that reading must source of their funding comes from the provincial gov- be really important and that books are really valuable, ernment. They closed 113 schools across this province, because you lock them up. Maybe that's the govern- a dozen of which were single-school communities. ment's literacy policy: if we lock up all the books, kids I don't know where all the members on the gov- will get desperate, and they'll start to steal them, like ernment side were raised. I don't know what their life junkies going after television sets. Maybe that's the real experiences were necessarily. But I can tell them, com- scheme of the government of British Columbia to en- ing from a rural community like I have, you under- courage literacy. stand intimately that when you take the school out of a You cannot continue on this path. You have been community, you are essentially killing that community. given an opportunity to pursue a different path. You've Parents with children are not going to move to a com- chosen to do something that I respectfully suggest to munity where their children cannot get an education. the government is not going to lead us to a happy and [0020] prosperous future. That is the one thing that is absolutely clear. That There will come a time in this province in the not- was done for what? It was done in support of a ridicu- too-distant future when the price of commodities lously generous tax cut. This government will start around the world will drop, when the demand for our harping, I have no doubt, at some point and say: "Well, resources will drop, when we won't be enjoying the it was that tax cut that's given us economic prosperity." spinoff from the natural resources that this government We'll hear the same old myth again. had nothing do with — that none of us had anything to I come back to the theme of the great myth. What do with. If we, in the meantime, have not taken the will happen in this province if the price for commodi- prosperity that has been given to us…. I don't mean ties drops? Will the government say that their tax pol- just now but through the last generation or two in this icy is somehow not strong enough to save us from the province. If we do not take advantage of that to ensure drop in commodity prices? What will be their excuse if that we have built a decent and caring society, that we the economy turns sour and unemployment starts to have funded public education properly and that we rise? What will be their excuse then? have created a generation capable of handling any The fact is that for this government to take credit change in the economy, any change in our world, then for the prosperity of the economy is as ridiculous for we will have failed them. them, in fairness, to have to take responsibility for the [0025] economy if it turns bad. Governments in the modern I guess that's my point tonight. This government, world, unfortunately, have a very limited opportunity notwithstanding the offer, is prepared to jump over the with respect to the economy to control their own eco- brink. They are insistent, absolutely insistent, on ensur- nomic destinies. Inasmuch as we have control over the ing that this bill is passed. They want to make sure that budget of this province, this government had an oppor- the teachers of this province remain angry. Perhaps tunity to enhance spending in education, to ensure that there's some great desire to so abuse the public school school boards across this province receive the funding system that we can force parents to reconsider public they need to provide good public education. education, that maybe what they'll really want to do or In fact, what happened is that they were forced to feel they have to do or feel compelled to do is put their make cuts to programs. That included teachers' salary children into private institutions. increases. There was ongoing salary creep, MSP creep, We, as a society — and when I talk of that, I refer to utility increases in hydro, transportation costs up — European society in the largest sense…. In terms of the none of which were compensated for by this govern- drive for public education in this country, it didn't ment. come out of nowhere. It came out of the common wis-

634 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 dom of the common people, who understood inti- Peace River South left off earlier today, when he said mately that the only real chance for their children was that what we're doing here shouldn't be about blame. to have public education, that it was not to be reserved for those who had connection to the wealthy landed K. Krueger: Actually, that was later yesterday. classes. It was not to be reserved for only those who were extremely brilliant. It was to be available for eve- D. Cubberley: Was it? I thought it was this after- ryone, like libraries. noon. I guess it's yesterday now. Thursday doesn't end Over time, we moved beyond the concept of public — right? education. We wanted to talk about public utilities, the public distribution of water, public health care — all of Deputy Speaker: May I remind members that if those things which create the kind of society that surely they wish to speak, they must do so from their own must be the ideal of everyone of this House, regardless seats. of their political ideology. Where we are today in history is a place where the D. Cubberley: I think that was directed at another road, I suggest to this government, has come to the member. fork. We can make up our minds that we will race to The member said that it shouldn't be about blame, the bottom, that we will attempt to compete with the that everyone owns a part of the situation we're in cheapest labour economies of the world — where there now. He implied that we on this side don't accept our is little or no environmental regulation, where there is part and that government does. I just want to remind precious little public education, where there is no pub- members that earlier today — or yesterday, as the case lic health care, where workers are exploited ruthlessly. may be — I and others like the member for Nelson- We can go down that path and try to compete with Creston have, in fact, accepted responsibility for the them, and we will lose. We will lose. failings of the '90s. The other alternative is for us to continue down the We certainly didn't get the bargaining relationship road that has been set for our society for several hun- fixed, but then again, we didn't try to break it up, ei- dred years, and that is a move towards a world and a ther, or blow it up. We didn't try to inflame the rela- country in which everyone has an opportunity regard- tionship with teachers, we didn't display disrespect for less of where they're born, the colour of their skin or teachers and their aspirations, and we certainly didn't the religion of their families. If they have an opportu- hide behind claims that we'd increased funding when nity for public education, then the sky is literally the in real dollar terms and on a program basis, the oppo- limit for them. When this government fails to under- site is the case. stand the ramifications of what they're doing with this That's what I hear from members opposite, and the bill, I must say — I say this more in sorrow than anger member for Peace River South said it yesterday. That's — it's a pretty sad state of affairs. the message box. But I have to say we aren't fooled by The government can be and remain in its position that message box, and teachers aren't fooled by it. The of ignorance and pretend that this isn't significant, that parents who interact with their children's teachers this is just the opposition seeing if it can sit through the aren't going to be fooled by it either. night. In fact, what we are doing here is debating some- I think it's more a question of taking responsibility thing fundamentally important. You cannot talk the rather than one of laying blame. Our idea of responsi- rhetoric of supporting public education when you're bility encompasses government's role in the bargaining not prepared to put the money into it, when you're not relationship for the tone and the substance of that rela- prepared to respect the people who are absolutely cru- tionship, because in bargaining, everything's cumula- cial to the delivery of public education in this province tive. Memory is very long, wrongs are always remem- — the teachers. bered, and nothing just goes away if it isn't, in some So I say to this government, in closing: take the fashion, addressed and resolved. And it will ultimately opportunity, throw away the shovel, stop digging the be about blame if government doesn't begin to show hole, listen to the opposition, listen to the students who leadership, take responsibility and begin acting like a are on the steps of this Legislature tonight. Sit down steward of public education. No one elected any of us with the teachers, withdraw this bill, and get on with here to politicize and demoralize the teaching profes- building the kind of society we all want to live in. Don't sion. take the wrong fork in that road. The member for Peace River South spoke passion- [0030] ately and eloquently yesterday, but he has this difficulty — and I think it's shared across the government D. Cubberley: Madam Speaker, I want to thank — in recognizing that while we accept our history, you personally for your ongoing resilience as a listener. those on the other side aren't showing any signs yet of It's truly inspiring to those of us who are speaking. accepting their own. We never gave ourselves permis- An important motion conferring an opportunity for sion to vilify the other party in the bargaining relation- government to take a sober second look and embrace a ship, and we never set out to try and create confronta- new chance for dialogue with teachers is before the tion. We never used the power of legislation puni- House. I want to urge members here to support it. In tively. I think it's important to remember that it was doing so, I want to pick up where the member for this government, and our Premier in particular, that

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 635 made a solemn promise in the 2001 election to respect It was precisely those protections in the collective signed agreements, and then turned around and agreement that prevented just this kind of thing from ripped them up — tore conditions out of contracts and happening. It's a kind of black irony that this was done. imposed new contracts. There were already stresses and strains on the classroom in any case because of the increasing complexity [S. Hammell in the chair.] of the society that we live in, its diversity — multi- ethnic, multicultural. There's a much higher commit- In a real sense, that's the context for what's unfold- ment than when you or I first went to school to provide ing today. There was a promise of respect for signed opportunity to people irrespective of the scope of their needs. Without the protections in the agreement, condi- contracts, and a collective agreement that's under rene- gotiation is a signed contract. But government had a tions began to worsen almost immediately. — serious desire to settle a score of some kind with teach- I think I mentioned earlier today or was it yes- — ers, a score that hinged somehow especially on the terday? that the actual result was described by learning condition provisions in the teachers' agree- somebody quite accurately as "the system began canni- ment. The government had absolute power at the time balizing itself to deal with the lack of resources, to deal — and you know the saying about absolute power and with the downloaded costs." I know that members op- the temptation it presents to legislators. Government posite have some difficulty admitting that. I heard it had to have it very quickly, unilateral action from the again today when a member opposite rattled on about beginning of its mandate, and the teachers' agreement how budgets had been increased substantially and was one of the first victims of that use of power. cited a big global number. Despite the money they put back into the system, when the problems they'd caused [0035] by the downloading of costs threatened to spill over — That wasn't lost on the teachers not for a mo- into the election window and cause problems, in no ment. They knew right away where things were head- way have the downloaded costs been offset by the ing. Provisions that provided protection for working added funding. and learning conditions, provisions that had been es- Now, if we're talking about accepting responsibili- tablished through collective action and, in teachers' ties rather than laying blame, it shouldn't really be so eyes at least, paid for with forgone wage increases, hard to admit that there were consequences to provisions that acted reciprocally to protect the teach- downloading costs. As members opposite love to tell ing environment and the learning environment from us, it's about choices and decisions that were made. certain kinds of abuses. Those provisions had been They made choices, and they made decisions. You said removed. there would be a 7.5-percent raise but not the money to What kind of abuses? Arbitrarily high class sizes. pay for most of it, and that was your choice. You said Very difficult class composition. Lack of appropriate there would be no learning protections in the collective aides to allow in-class teachers to distribute their atten- agreement, and that was your choice. You said that tion across the entire spectrum of learners so that every school districts would have flexibility to rearrange the individual in their class got a share of the attention deployment of resources and that they weren't con- they deserved. strained to hire librarians on a per-capita or other basis, I'm sure that very few teachers were upset to learn and that was your choice. that they had a 7.5-percent wage increase over three [0040] years included in the 2002 imposed contract as some It would be really wonderful, indeed, if schools form of recognition that their wages had fallen behind. could simply deliver the same programs with less But I don't think that any teacher could have been money available per unit of output. But they can't, be- happy to learn that it wasn't, in fact, a real wage in- cause there's no magic wand. To give you an example crease, that most of it was downloaded onto school of that, the actual impact of that decision, I have some districts, who were told to absorb it. "Find it within Ministry of Education figures from form 1530 and from your existing budget." table 2 — FTE funded enrolment. What they show, in a Teachers know what the implications of that were. very interesting way, is the effect of downloaded costs. Over your government's first term, Madam Speaker, The student-funded FTE enrolment percent change they watched in horror as conditions began to deterio- was 1.2 percent. The number of students over a period rate. As one teacher said, "First I got a raise in pay. of three years, four years declined by 1.2 percent. The Then I paid for my raise in pay with damaged learning number of teachers declined by 9.5 percent. There's a conditions, higher class size, an impossible student mix disparity there, and declining enrolment doesn't ex- and no learning assistants." plain it. What explains it are downloaded costs. That raise in pay didn't make him happy. I think I To make it more tangible, let's translate it into ac- can understand why, given the professional motivation tual callings within the school system, the different of teachers, it wouldn't make you happy to find that skills that allow teachers to deal with class composition you got a marginal pay increase — not inconsequential, of varying nature. It cost the school district, in this case, but a marginal pay increase — in return for a signifi- 24 percent of its career program teachers; 29 percent of cant deterioration in working conditions. Because its librarians; 14 percent of its counsellors; 9 percent of teachers are committed to learning. its special education teachers; 64 percent of its ESL

636 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 teachers — now that's only two out of three, but two- collective bargaining process that you, as it turns out, thirds of those who were there practising; 16 percent of had no intention of approaching in good faith. its special education assistants, who are the ones that [0045] allow teachers to deal directly with class composition; I think we've come to realize that it works for those and 8 percent of its clerical and support staff. It was so on the other side. The teacher-bashing ramps up fears bad, even 7 percent of its administrators disappeared. among parents, and it demoralizes the teachers. The Now, you could call those efficiencies, but I think heightened desire for remedy is checked by govern- from the kind of things that have been introduced in ment's refusal to actually come to a table and negotiate. this chamber by members on this side, we know that Negotiations go through 35 meetings without a single the impacts in the classroom were severe. It would item being addressed because government negotiators indeed be wonderful if there was a magic wand that won't hear a word of discussion on wages or working we could wave to offset downloaded costs, but less conditions. That allows government to reinforce the money per unit of output ultimately results in worsen- idea that the system can't work. That sets the grounding outcomes. work for draconian legislation that freezes wages and And that's what an unfunded MSP premium hike working conditions and allows government to consult also dumped on school districts means. Outcomes itself in the fullness of time about some sort of some- don't fall out of thin air; they come from quality teach- thing to replace the system it has been busily under- ing — on the ground, day after day, in real time, deal- mining. ing with the mix of kids that show up and the array of As the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant opportunities and problems that they present. said, it's all very convenient for the government's But there was no magic wand, and so instead of agenda — this kind of approach. But it can never be efficiency — which is presumably what the govern- acceptable to teachers or parents or communities to see ment thought it could force to occur by downloading government abdicate its responsibilities to negotiate in the costs, if the government actually thought about it order to be able to use its preferred means in this case, and cared about what would occur, and it isn't clear to which is legislative force. All this can ever do is engen- me — your choices began undermining two things: the der and reinforce a climate of disrespect. quality of the teaching environment and the quality of Bill 12 represents intemperate action by a govern- the learning environment. And that's what delivered ment determined to politicize teacher bargaining rela- the message to teachers — that you don't actually care tionships and to make unilateral decisions about teach- about the sustainability of the process or the quality of ing and learning conditions that do not have the best the outcomes. interests of students and parents at the forefront. The So there's the context that government, by its government gives no compelling rationale for Bill 12. choices, created for the next round of bargaining: an- The government doesn't need it to protect its interest in other legislative settlement, with a marked and anger- the continuity of educational services, because it has ing deterioration of working and teaching conditions. essential services designation in hand. Earlier, I talked about the bargaining relationship The government doesn't need it to establish an in- and the importance of respect between the parties, and dustrial relations commission to recommend a new the higher obligation on government as the employer approach to collective bargaining. It has that power and the chief steward of our public education system, independently of Bill 12. It could have done it any time. which it oversees in trust for all British Columbians, to Bill 12 doesn't mention it. Bill 12 has no bearing on it. proceed with respect and in a measured way and never In fact, if government had wanted to show good faith, to seek to provoke or inflame situations or to politicize it could have instituted the IRC process a long time or antagonize the people who deliver quality education ago. It could have used it to build bridges rather than in our schools. burn them. You remember the last ten days of the election What does the government need Bill 12 for? Really, campaign, Madam Speaker, when the Premier and his the only thing I can see when I look into it is that it advisers decided they needed to whip up some emo- allows the government to avoid bargaining in good tions with a little fearmongering around the idea of faith by removing the obligation to bargain at all. It's teacher strikes so that the B.C. Liberals could position nothing more, in the end, than an escape hatch from themselves once again as the protectors of children's the sorry mess created by the refusal to bargain in good education. faith. I remember how they cooked up the issue and of- I said earlier today that where I come from, you fered essential services legislation as the visible shield have to keep talking across the divide, across the dif- for parents' and children's rights, to be protected from ferences, and that you have to try to keep the dialogue the terrible teachers who would do this dastardly going and that you have to reach out. It certainly isn't thing. Perhaps there was intoxication at the thought of easy to get to yes, but you only can get to yes if, to short-term political gain; I don't know. Perhaps you some degree, you attempt to put yourself in the other didn't see, or didn't care, that doing it would reinforce guy's shoes. and compound the lasting feelings of abuse and lack of This government still shows no signs of wanting to respect, which in turn could only increase frustration reach out. Rather, I think I see the government trying to with and from the collective bargaining process — the talk past the teachers with their commitment to the best

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 637 outcome for students and convince parents that some- universe — I may have expanded the sphere a little, how they are empowering choice, retaining continuity, but it's good to have large goals and aspire higher — when in fact what they're doing is negatively affecting then you can't turn teachers into enemies and vilify the very conditions that determine their children's po- them to the very parents whose confidence they enjoy. tential in school. Parents go to the schools. I'm a parent. I go to the I recall, on the doorstep in the recent election cam- school on a daily basis — not every day, because I paign — which is still not a distant memory for me — think today is a day that I may not get to take my son that I wasn't hearing parents defending government's to school in the morning. That's unfortunate, and I'll claim about increased choice and protecting the conti- miss that. Parents go to schools every day, and they nuity of schooling. What I was hearing was ongoing interact with the teachers, and they understand what concern about conditions at the local schools and, also, the teachers are doing for their children, and they de- concern about government's intentions for public edu- pend on them. They do have confidence in teachers. cation, a system we all have immense pride in and a I think government needs to begin reaching out. huge stake in. These are issues of trust that relate to This government, especially, needs to begin reaching choices — choices government has made, choices gov- out. But it's going to have to overcome that habit of ernment doesn't seem proud of or even ready to own. acting unilaterally. It got hooked on that from a term in Those parents aren't feeling better right now about office when it didn't have to talk to anybody but itself. what they're seeing with Bill 12, because it reinforces That habit, in part, is the reason that we've come to the the image of this as a government that's uncaring, place we're at today. heavy-handed and vindictive. But I don't think it's too late. I really don't. I think [0050] there are some reasonable people on the other side, and People aren't dumb. If you approach bargaining I want to speak to the better side of their natures. Gov- with zero-zero-and-zero and you refuse to enter into ernment needs to reach out, build bridges, listen and discussion of learning outcomes and teaching condi- hear, not throw punches, not burn bridges and not tions, people are going to know that you're not actually order teachers to work without the satisfaction of hav- proceeding with an intention to try to resolve a decent ing their say in the matter. agreement, that you're not actually bargaining in good This government could be spending its credibility faith, that you haven't actually tried to find an agree- in this regard very quickly at the outset of a new term. ment, that you haven't exhausted every avenue, that If you persist, it's going to be very, very difficult to ever you haven't even looked for remedies. get this thing back in a workable groove. It's already gotten very far off track. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] I'm wending my way towards a close, but I want to make a plea. Bill 12 looks, really, like what it is. It's an escape hatch from a situation, an impasse that's of govern- An Hon. Member: More! ment's own making. For this government to declare that the system is broken and have any credibility at all D. Cubberley: You want more? in making that statement, they would have to have tried, actually tried, to make the system work. Yet at Some Hon. Members: More! More! every turn what we've seen is they've done everything [0055] to avoid trying to make it work. They've undermined the relationship with teachers at every turn, shown D. Cubberley: I'm really encouraged by the enthu- them the cold shoulder. siasm being shown in the chamber for the kind of idea Now, Mr. Speaker, calling attention to this may that I'm putting forward. The hour is late, but there is seem as futile to you as howling at the moon, but I obviously passion for public education on this side of want to urge the government to reconsider its actions the House. I have the sense that we're near Vesuvius and to think about changing its course. It's never too and that Vesuvius is giving stirrings and signs of being late to be saved. It's certainly not too late to realize that capable of erupting. That's very exciting. you can't freeze teachers out of discussions about education that encompass teaching and learning condi- L. Krog: A classical education. Nothing like it. tions. The Minister of Labour, the Minister of Education D. Cubberley: Yes, the reference may be somewhat and their government should be just as concerned obscure, but the member behind me obviously gets it. about the deteriorating conditions that teachers are I'd like to close with a plea that if members oppo- reporting to us and telling us are damaging their ability site actually care for public education's future in British to enjoy their calling and to optimize the outcomes in Columbia, that if they really have some connection to our classrooms, as we on this side of the House are. this great goal of literacy — and, indeed, it is a great I think this Legislature is the steward of public edu- goal — and to quality education, and that it isn't just a cation. But if this Legislature is, in fact, the steward of convenient slogan and a screen, then they understand public education in the province that apparently as- that it's not too late to change course and to open a pires to meet the goal of being the most literate in the dialogue with teachers that provides them with a

638 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 meaningful opportunity to participate in the design of (2) The board orders the teachers to refrain from picket- their own working lives. ing at or near the schools, which means refraining from That really is, I think, what teachers are looking for. attending at or near the schools for the purpose of per- suading or attempting to persuade anyone not to enter — I mean, it's a complex situation bargaining always is the schools or do business with them but does not in- complex — but they need to have a sense that they can clude consumer leafleting. have a say, and they need to be heard. The best place to (3) The board orders that the union communicate this in- do that is at a table of some kind, not in the public terim order forthwith to its shop stewards and post this sphere, not in the media, not by dramatizing the issue interim order forthwith on its website for seven days. and ramping up emotions. That makes it more difficult (4) This interim order is in effect until the final resolution to get where we need to go. of BCPSEA's application or until further order of the board, whichever is sooner. What government really needs to consider doing at It's dated October 6. I can advise members of the House this point is seize the opportunity and, as the member that the order has been, as of a few moments ago, filed behind me suggested earlier, stop digging the hole that with the Supreme Court of British Columbia. It has government is working so hard to dig, and to join us been distributed via electronic means, I believe, to by committing publicly to drop Bill 12 and go back to schools across the province. the table and addressing the classroom conditions that are undermining teachers' confidence in the public I'm advised that it will then be served on the picket lines. In fact, the report I have is that in several in- system we all treasure and that they, above all, love stances, picket lines have appeared and that the order and are investing their lives in. will be served on those and subsequent picket lines On that note, I'm going to close my remarks. Thank that may appear and that it will be the intention of the you for your patience. employer, the BCPSEA, to secure the necessary affida- vits in the event that the order is ignored and to bring Hon. M. de Jong: My interjection into the debate enforcement applications before the B.C. Supreme will not be a lengthy one. I suspect members opposite Court tomorrow. understand that for a variety of reasons, the govern- By way of information about what has taken place ment is of the view that the hoist motion is misguided thus far…. I have been following the debate in this and will frustrate the intention of the legislation that's chamber, and though I must say I have disagreed pro- before the House — and that therefore the government foundly with many of the views expressed, I respect will be voting against it. the fact that members in this chamber, for a variety of I would not have interjected at this time, except that reasons, may have differing views than I about the I wanted, in fairness, to be able to provide all members nature of the legislation before us in the guise of Bill 12. with a formal and on-the-record update of what has I am also mindful of the fact that members require taken place insofar as applications before the Labour up-to-date information on what the courts of the land Relations Board. I can tell members that as of an hour have said. I think it is fair for me to provide this cham- or two ago the Labour Relations Board did rule on an ber with the information and to observe that the ur- application between the British Columbia Public gency associated with the bill, if it was not apparent School Employers Association on behalf of its members before, is perhaps more readily apparent to members and the British Columbia Teachers Federation. now as a result of what has taken place I won't read the entire order, but I will alert mem- I hope that during the course of the debate, to the bers to what I think are the salient portions. It is an extent that it may follow, members will reflect on that. I order dated October 6: "Whereas the Labour Relations had occasion…. I don't pretend to be able to keep track Board has received an application dated October 6, of all such things myself, but someone had occasion to 2005, from BCPSEA pursuant to sections 1(2), 133, 134, provide me with material relating to something the 135, 136, 139 and 143 in parts 5 and 6 of the Labour Leader of the Opposition apparently said to the media Relations Code alleging that the union has declared around four o'clock this morning. The Leader of the and authorized a withdrawal of services beginning on Opposition is quoted — hopefully, correctly — as say- October 7, 2005, contrary to parts 5 and 6 of the ing: "Do I think the public and others, and teachers code…." There is then a series of recitals. included, should follow the law? Yes." [0100] Members of the House will, I hope, be able to rely The order is as follows, from the Labour Relations on the information that I have now, in having a firm Board. statement of what the law is, pending changes. I will The Labour Relations Board makes the following interim undertake to provide them with any additional infor- order: mation as it becomes known to me. It is, I would sug- (1) The Board orders (a) the union, its officers, members, gest, extremely relevant. I think, as members of this employees and agents to immediately refrain from de- chamber, whatever our political persuasions are and claring or authorizing a strike against the schools, (b) the our regard for the legislation might be, it has been ably teachers to immediately refrain from participating in or expressed during the course of this debate. continuing a strike against the schools, and (c) the teachers to immediately resume their duties and work sched- [0105] ules of employment with the schools except as author- We must further reflect, or should reflect, on what ized otherwise by the essential service orders. our role as lawmakers is. Each of us will make our de-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 639 cision, as will, I'm sure, the people who are confronted important language spoken at home. Teachers working by both the requests of their union and the order of the with students at that school do extraordinary things. court. That is the information. To the extent that I an- [0110] ticipated speaking to the hoist motion that is before the We think of the world and the anger that some- chamber — I would have done that later — I thought times comes in ethnic conflict, and then we think of the this was an opportune time to provide that information work of teachers and students and parents in our pub- to members and to the chamber as a whole. lic schools bringing people together. That is the reality My last point, before I take my place. I am certain that of public education as it's expressed in the lives of it was inadvertent. Therefore, I will not submit this as a teachers in my constituency. It has nothing to do with formal point of privilege. But the member for Vancouver– the anger and the confrontation and the fury and the Mount Pleasant, I hope, will have an opportunity to opportunism of the B.C. Liberal government with re- review her remarks as recorded in Hansard at about spect to education. It has nothing to do with that. 9:55 this evening — fairly lengthy remarks assigning I have another school in my riding, Windermere certain comments to me. Knowing the member as I do, School, led by extraordinary teachers and students. I am certain that she will — and I can make the com- More than 400 students at Windermere School volun- ment directly — offer a correction on the record for the teer at the elementary schools in my constituency comments that she made at 9:55 erroneously assigning which forms the Windermere family of schools — 400 some fairly lengthy comments to me. I'm not sure who students. They are supported by teachers in those ef- takes great umbrage, myself or the member who actu- forts 12 months of the year. At event after event after ally made the comments. He is no longer here to record event I attended this summer that people from Win- that fact in the chamber, so perhaps the member would dermere supported, teachers were there in support. review those comments. Teachers live a life of cooperation and respect. For Those are my submissions to the House at this time. five years in this province they have received none from this government. I want to take you back to the A. Dix: I listened with great seriousness to what the remarks of the Premier prior to the 2001 election. What Government House Leader had to say. In great fair- did he say about education and competitiveness? He ness, I think that I draw a very different conclusion. said: "You compete by recognizing that teachers should We've reached a point after four-plus years now, of a be valued members of our community, and they're government that again and again and again and again going to have to be paid." and again and again — six times — has introduced The Premier also said — we all remember it — legislation taking away rights from teachers, imposing some things to hospital workers before that election conditions on teachers, imposing working conditions campaign. He said that they would be respected and on teachers without negotiation. It's a government that that their contracts would be respected. No doubt we'll has used education as a wedge issue in election cam- hear him speaking eloquently, like the Government paigns, that has targeted teachers in election cam- House Leader, about respect for the law. We'll hear paigns. him eloquently about that. The Premier talked before This isn't MLAs. This isn't some angry campaign an election about respect for contracts, and then after official. This isn't some overenthusiastic volunteer. I'm the election he led his caucus to tear up contracts. That talking about the Premier of this province who, during is not the way to build respect for the law in this prov- the last election campaign — four days before the last ince. election campaign — made comments about teachers I talked about six bills. Six times they've come to in this province, about their representatives in this this House and used the hammer of legislation against province which, I think, lowered the standard of de- teachers. Hon. Speaker, remember in 2002…. I just bate and were provocative in the extreme. I'd argue to want to read what the member who introduced the bill the Government House Leader that it is time for the in 2002…. He's no longer in this House. The former government to take a step back, for the government to member for Cowichan-Ladysmith, who was then the support this hoist, for the government not to impose Minister of Labour, in introducing the bill in the yet another bill on teachers, for the government to House, the bills that, of course, stripped collective show a little respect. agreements of class size provisions, bills that led to Public education, I know, is important to all mem- every classroom in British Columbia becoming larger, bers of this House. It's not just exclusive to members of that caused cuts to teacher-librarians, that caused cuts our party. I know it's important to all members of this to ESL teachers in the very school, Gladstone School, House. It's important to all Canadians. that I think is a centrepiece of what public education I don't think there's any other place in Canadian should be…. society where people are brought together in this way The Minister of Labour said: "This bill settles the — people of diverse backgrounds. That's certainly true teachers dispute and provides a collective agreement in my constituency in kind of a profound way. I have between the parties. It also provides for the appoint- two secondary schools in my riding. One is Gladstone ment of a commission to review the structures, prac- School. There are students who at home speak 40 dif- tices and procedures for collective bargaining in the ferent languages. English is not just not the most im- education sector." I think there's a quote — I forget portant language. It's not even close to being the most who said it; something tells me it might be Groucho

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Marx — about history repeating itself: first it's tragedy, Then what happened? The Supreme Court of Brit- and then it's farce. It might be somebody else; I don't ish Columbia made a ruling in favour of teachers, know. I think those were virtually the exact same against the government's legislation. What happened words that the Minister of Labour used in the House then? What did they do then? Well, they came back in when he introduced this bill. the House, and again without consultation with teach- We're talking about using the legislative hammer to ers, they took away their rights the second time. They impose an agreement on teachers that hurts students took them away the second time. That's the history and then having vague promises of a future that will be going forward. better. They didn't even do us the courtesy of coming Then we get, of course, to the election campaign up with something more imaginative this time. and to the comments I've referred to that the Premier Remember what those bills did. When we talk made earlier. On May 13, 2005, there was the Premier. about the cuts and their impact to legislation, think of He called a special news conference, the Premier did, to Bill 28, which eliminated the provisions with respect to meet with reporters and to refer to "a duplicitous plan class size, workload and support provisions. What was meant to engineer a school strike, only weeks before the effect of it, practically speaking? provincial exams, that would throw our school system Lots of people say this is about teachers. In fact, into chaos." We're in this Legislature, and there are what it meant for students was profound. Special edu- rules of decorum, so I won't characterize those re- cation teachers down 17.5 percent — that's what Bill 28 marks. But let us say, to be generous, that the Premier meant. Teacher-librarians are down 23.4 percent — one was mistaken. Hon. Speaker, he was more than mis- in four, almost — in the province. If you go to some taken. He is the Premier of British Columbia, and he, communities, there's a virtual elimination of access to days before an election, decides to go after a group in libraries. Counsellors down 10 percent, ESL teachers society, a group he doesn't like — teachers — a group down 20 percent — that's what it meant. That's what that he had legislated against already five times. He they did. They did it without consultation, without made these comments, which were, I think, proven to serious negotiations. They stripped that collective be not so. agreement, and they hurt students while they did it. Why did he do it? Well, in fact, the B.C. Liberal [0115] Party, his supporters, explained to us why he did it. Where did they go from there? What was the next B.C. Liberal Women's Committee president Irene Barr step? Remember, when they introduced that bill, they sent an e-mail telling party members to use media re- said they were going to try and improve things. They ports about teacher negotiations to "start a movement were trying to make things better for the next time. on this issue to stop the NDP." This contrived issue…. They said, like they say this time, that the bargaining After four years of attacks on teachers and on students system is broken. They never take any responsibility and on the quality of education, days before the elec- for it. It's like they're witnessing an accident involving tion, the Premier — the person who represents, after other parties. In this case, this so-called failed negotia- all, everybody in British Columbia, not just those that tion, they said to teachers: "You can't negotiate wages. support the governing party but everybody in British You can't negotiate working conditions." Then, having Columbia — was raising issues to divide, divide, di- taken away anything to negotiate, they attacked teach- vide. This legislation that faces us today is more of the ers for not negotiating. same. That's their position now. But what did they do [0120] then? What was their moving-on idea then? It was to The Premier, who of course towers over this gov- take away the professional status of teachers by chang- ernment, who is maybe the most powerful centralizing ing the Teaching Profession Act. That was their next Premier in the history of British Columbia…. What did step: Bill 51. he say about this legislation? He said: "We've taken the I tell you, I was executive director of Canadian Par- lightest approach we could." Well, I'm reminded of ents for French at the time, and I visited classrooms all what Art Buchwald said about the Nixon cabinet. He over B.C. and met lots of hardworking teachers. I think said: "I've always wanted to join the Nixon cabinet, but many teachers found this even more personally insult- I was never light enough to make the team." ing to them than the previous bills had been. The fact In this case, what the Premier calls the lightest ap- of the matter is…. Just to show how ideological the bill proach is to not allow negotiations, to not discuss seri- was, how angry and divisive the bill was, at the very ous issues of educational standards with teachers for time they were doing this, they were creating self- years and then to impose legislation on them by legis- regulating bodies in numerous other professions. In lative diktat — not to meet with teachers. By the way, other words, they were saying: "In principle we like the Premier, in that summer of good feeling after the self-regulating bodies for professions. Whether it's car election, the Premier's summer of love…. What did he dealers or whatever it is, we love that. We think that's do? What did he promise? He said he'd meet with the right way to go. But for teachers — no. For teachers teachers. He said: "We've changed. We're going to be a we'll go the other way. We'll give them special treat- different government." But did he meet with teachers? ment — special hostile treatment." It's shameful. It's Did he keep his commitment to meet with teachers? He shameful to target a group in society that contributes didn't keep his commitment to meet with teachers any so much in that way. more than he kept his commitment to treat them and

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 641 hospital workers and others with respect before the seen in the last few years? I've certainly heard from 2001 election. teachers in my constituency over the last few weeks. I think what we have seen from this government, over Today I heard from a teacher, Jason Yee, who four years, has brought us to the brink of something seri- teaches at Windermere Secondary School. He makes an ous, some of which was described a few minutes ago by extraordinary contribution there. It's a remarkable the Government House Leader. I think it's time that the school. In spite of all the challenges that students and Premier and his MLAs take a step back. They have ac- teachers have faced there, they are achieving remark- knowledged — they've already acknowledged — with able things. I encourage all members of this House to respect to this legislation that there is no emergency. go to Windermere School and see those things, and so They don't need the bill. They've already acknowl- does Jason Yee. He writes: "I'm a teacher who lives and edged that. They should accept that it would be helpful works in Vancouver-Kingsway, and I'd like to tell you in this dispute to take a step back from legislation that what it's like to teach at Windermere Secondary. Dur- imposes conditions on teachers that have never been ing the last school year I taught a math class with 32 negotiated, never been seriously discussed, by legisla- students in which ten of the students had documented tive diktat. They should take this moment to take a step special needs." That wouldn't have been allowed in the back. contract negotiated in 1998. Instead, what we get from the Premier is more of He goes on to say: the same. We get a little bit of misdirection. We get the I did not have the luxury of having a special education lightest approach we could. We get promises of future assistant, nor did I receive any support. This year I am negotiations sometime in the future. Well, every time teaching a computer programming class in a computer you commit to future negotiations, to meeting with lab that has 20 functioning computers. This class has 31 teachers, and you never deliver and you never have students and is a split class where I must teach two different courses. them, then how is anyone seriously going to believe you now? He needs not to talk about future negotia- Over the last couple of years I've been moving more and more desks into the classroom with fewer and fewer tions with teachers. He needs to have negotiations with textbooks to go around. This is just a snapshot of what is teachers. happening in schools across the province. I believe that it is our responsibility as teachers — those who see and live Interjection. these deteriorating learning conditions every day — to speak out about these issues. A. Dix: The hon. member for Kamloops–North Rather than coming to this Legislature with the Thompson speaks, hon. Speaker. hammer against teachers, this government should be standing up every day and thanking teachers, working In 1998 teachers signed an agreement with the gov- with teachers and working with people like Jason Yee ernment of British Columbia where they gave up wage who believe in public education or making enormous increases in order to have lower class sizes, reduced contributions in the class. That's what they should be class sizes, in order to have a lower ratio of special doing and not passing this bill today. needs students to teachers and in order to have more teacher-librarians. They made real sacrifices in wages, I think we've reached an important moment in this true sacrifices in wages, in a formal contract with the debate and an important moment in the history of edu- government of British Columbia. They made that deal. cation in British Columbia. The government truly has a It was a good deal for education. It was a good deal for choice. They can continue down this present path, students. It was a good deal for our public school sys- where more and more teachers are discouraged, where tem. the government has for years publicly presented a view This government, by legislative diktat, stripped that teaching is not a profession to be respected. those conditions from that collective agreement. They didn't negotiate. They didn't talk. They didn't treat K. Krueger: That's not true. teachers with respect, and they took away things that teachers sacrificed to get for students. That's the record, A. Dix: The member for Kamloops–North Thompson hon. Speaker. knows this well, because he goes to schools as well as I [0125] do. He knows these issues as well. We need to encour- When the hon. members opposite talk about these age young people to go into public education today. negotiations in that way, they try and rewrite history. We need it. Negotiations take time. They take effort. It's easier for As executive director of Canadian Parents for the hon. members opposite to come into this House French, I can tell you that we need a net increase of 300 and not work, to treat teachers with disrespect, to write teachers just for French immersion in this province. a little bit of legislation — a little bit of legislation that You get there by praising teachers, by negotiating with says in the explanatory note: "This settles the dispute." teachers, by respecting teachers. You don't get there In 1998 teachers ratified an agreement with the with legislative hammers year after year after year, Mr. government of British Columbia. That is a fact. That Speaker. This is damaging to the long-term future of agreement involved real sacrifice for teachers and real public education in British Columbia. The member gains for students and public education. What have we knows it.

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I ask members opposite to reconsider this legisla- it again and again, as long as it will take, as all of us on tion, to take a step back. The hon. member referred this side will. I've done a lot of all-nighters. Put the earlier to the LRB ruling. They don't need to add this coffee on. bill to that fire. They could take a step back. They could We on this side of the House will be the voice of not go forward with this legislation at this moment. conscience and stand up to this government's attempt They could show respect for teachers. They could go to impose this draconian bill — impose it not by rea- spend this weekend — the Premier, the Minister of son, because the bill is totally unreasonable, but by Labour, the Minister of Education, the Deputy Premier, exhaustion. It's a low blow by anyone's standards. their MLAs could spend this weekend — working with I stand here supporting the hoist motion, the six- teachers and entering into serious negotiations for month hoist motion. Take this bill off the table. It's time once, because ultimately — and it's the reason these to step back. Bill 12, this most divisive and inflamma- negotiations have failed — they set up a system of ne- tory piece of legislation…. This government's priority gotiations that is Kafkaesque. is rewarding political friends and supporters with cor- [0130] porate tax breaks and paying for that largesse with You can't negotiate working conditions and you cuts, broken promises and torn-up contracts. This gov- can't negotiate wages, yet they insult you if you don't ernment's priorities put students dead last. This legisla- negotiate. If you're not allowed to negotiate anything, tion increases the level of confrontation and does noth- then it doesn't matter how many meetings you have. ing to improve learning conditions in our classrooms. It's the government that should be at the negotiating [0135] tables, the government that should be taking responsi- This is governing by spin doctors. It's ruling by bility, the government that should insist on giving a slogan — golden decade indeed. The most educated serious mandate for the negotiations. They can step and literate society in the world — oh, really? The back. They can cool the situation down. They have the number of students with identified special needs is responsibility, and they have to start taking responsi- dropping, apparently. Good news, if it were true. Min- bility. Until they do that, this situation will get worse istry statistics say that the number of identified stu- and worse. dents with special needs fell by 6 percent, while overall I ask them to support this hoist motion, to take a school enrolment fell only by 3.7 percent under this step back, to give this some time, to meet with mem- government. The drop in special needs would be bers of the B.C. Teachers Federation, to meet with greater, except for the huge growth in students identi- teachers in their constituencies. I know this: if teachers fied as being autistic — a 48 percent increase over the who live their lives teaching respect in the classroom same years from 1,312 identified as autistic in 2000- are given respect by this government, they will re- 2001 to 2,262 by 2004-2005. Does the drop in identified spond by negotiating with the government in good students reduce the pressure on teachers? Hardly. faith. I ask the government to go that way, to go a different route, to take a step back from year after year of The problem is that the students with special needs legislation taking away the rights of teachers and, in- haven't disappeared. Many are just not identified. It's stead, build a new culture of respect that has to start kind of a "let them eat cake" mentality from this gov- today. ernment. Under the old finance system, when districts identified students with special needs, that brought Point of Order funding to provide assistance. Under the new system, the Liberal system, that is the case only for the students J. Kwan: I rise to make an apology to the Minister with the most severe disabilities. of Labour. I was mistaken when I quoted earlier in my If you identify a student as having special needs, speech, in moving the motion, that the Minister of La- she or he must have extra service provided in the form bour made the statement I quoted on record. It turns of an individual education plan, an IEP that describes out it was another de Jong, a Harry de Jong, and that the needs and how they must be met. If no additional didn't show up in Hansard. My apologies to the minis- money is coming for the student, the incentive for a ter, and I withdraw those statements. district to identify those in need is much, much less. But if students with special needs are still there, and Debate Continued they are, the teacher still has to do her or his best to respond to the individual needs under very difficult S. Fraser: Yet again I stand here before you. It's circumstances, often with resources, activities and ap- 1:30. The night is young, with a few sleepy-looking proaches different from those that engage the other people across the way, but I see they're waking up. students in the class. I did some research earlier today. In my constitu- [H. Bloy in the chair.] ency, Alberni-Qualicum, there are two school districts: 69, which is Qualicum, and 70, which is Alberni and I stand here defending public education for our the west coast. Special needs teachers in Alberni, dis- children, for our parents and for our teachers — the trict 70, have been cut by 14 percent under this gov- professionals that the Liberal government treats with ernment. In Qualicum — that's district 69 — special such disdain and disrespect. I do so proudly, and I'll do education teachers were cut by 22 percent.

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I met with a group of aboriginal teachers today — needing this testing also, both aboriginal and non- about 15 from all over the province. They were in the aboriginal. gallery today. There might be some still here. They had Students in inner-city schools who are commonly a great number of concerns. I tried to make extra time disadvantaged due to socioeconomic challenges don't for them and ran out of that time. We'll try to set up often have the two to three years of preschool book- another meeting. They were explaining some of the reading experience of most non-poverty-level-income difficulties they've been facing under this government, families — children that have. They need smaller class just under this Bill 12, being able to negotiate towards sizes and available small groups. The one-on-one sup- improving learning conditions for students. That abil- port from K-to-seven is critical. ity is gone, and it directly affects first nations students. There's another Nuu-chah-nulth term. It's called Class sizes affect first nations students — a weakening iisaak. It means, literally, respect. There has been a glar- quality of learning services for kids. There's less small- ing lack of iisaak by this government for our teachers, group support; there's certainly less one-on-one sup- for public education and for collective bargaining port. rights. This government has been ruthless. [0140] Public education has been in the Liberal sights from In dealing with special needs here, I again refer to the beginning — gutted contracts; removing the ability my own constituency. In the aboriginal education, in of our educators to have meaningful say on class condi- district 70, the cuts have been 43 percent. In district 69 tions, class size or class makeup. Our teachers are the the cuts were 88 percent to aboriginal education. This people that know. They are the professionals charged government talks of a new relationship with first na- with educating our children. It's our future. tions. I was honoured to be on the central region board The excuse by this government for 2,500 teachers in Clayoquot Sound for a number of years with Nuu- cut was a drop in enrolment. The numbers never chah-nulth leadership. I learned some things there — a added up — a spurious argument at best. term hishuk-ish ts'awalk: everything is connected. All [0145] things are one. It has merit here. You can't have a new One hundred and thirteen schools closed. There's a relationship with words. Education can't be cut to the legacy. Downloading millions of dollars of costs on bone, and we have words to fix that. It doesn't work local school boards. that way. I received a letter from a secondary school teacher in Port Alberni, my constituency, a professional with The first nations teachers I was talking to today almost 30 years' experience. As she is explaining here, were talking about special needs issues: less money, no basically, the whole system has been eroded. Class money to hire more educational psychologists to do the sizes are too large and of a composition that is not be- lengthy educational testing needed to acquire ministry ing supported. Weak students do not get adequate designation of special needs. A category letter is attention or help. She describes the condition in our needed to get special learning services in elementary schools for our children as "survival of the fittest." and is also needed to qualify for special needs class- As well, required support systems and infrastruc- room programs in elementary and, most importantly, ture are failing — failing in cleanliness, failing janitorial in order to qualify for special needs high school pro- standards, failing computer standards that have been grams, for which there are extensive waiting lists right mentioned over and over by my peers, with a lack of now. integrated support personnel, lack of prompt testing, The best-educated. The most literate. They're words lack of current texts and textbooks, cutbacks in librar- — only words with this government. ies. Her frustration is palpable. There was an elementary school in Vancouver's With the last provincial election, there was talk of east side. This school has to share an educational psy- doing things differently — positive talk: friendlier, chologist with four other schools. It's lucky to get four more kindhearted government; bridging differences, students in that school tested per year. At present there not creating them; bridging historic animosity. These are five grade five students on a waiting list to be given were only words. The mean-spirited attacks on public educational testing in order to get needed support. education have just continued. During the election this They are all aboriginal students. government began again by attempting to vilify teach- English as a second dialect is outlined by the Minis- ers, setting the stage for the failed process we see here, try of Education — ESL. It's unclear how services to leading to this bill that we are debating this week. these students are to be delivered and in describing Looking back, the parallels from the previous elec- who exactly qualifies for this service. Roughly, stu- tion should have tipped us off. The new budget. Again, dents whose academic writing is two grade levels be- massive tax breaks to corporate friends and supporters, low grade standards qualifies as ESD, or English as a and again — how to pay for them? Exactly the same second dialect, but they are not automatically to receive priorities as the last time. It's déjà vu all over again. support for being below grade level academically. The rationale for Bill 12 is an impasse in negotia- Educational testing in order to get needed support. tions. An impasse? No kidding, an impasse. This gov- This doesn't even consider the other eight classes in the ernment ordained that negotiations shall not include school I was just referring to. This school may have things like wages or class sizes or working conditions. anywhere from one to five students in K-to-seven What kind of negotiations? What would it be like to be

644 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 in a room like that in a negotiation like that? What back-to-work legislation similar to Bill 12 used to be would you talk about? used as an exceptional measure, this government has, The teachers participated in 35 sessions that led to in the words of the labour relations experts, institu- an impasse. It's a credit to the BCTF negotiators to re- tionalized — and I like this term — "permanent excep- turn 34 times to that. What a credit to our teachers. tionalism." What an affirmation of their willingness to negotiate According to the labour relations experts, this gov- and make a better education system for our province, ernment has institutionalized permanent exceptional- for our children and for our future. ism by routinely ordering public sector employees back When this government laid down criteria that to work. It is confrontational, and there were indica- would not allow negotiations to proceed…. Then we tions that that would end at this election. Those indica- get a fact-finding report that says there is an impasse. tions have proven sadly wrong. During their first term, B.C. parents expect the government to work with the the Liberals imposed legislated settlements on at least teachers — that never happened — not work against seven occasions. them. They expect them to work to improve education [0155] for our children, not hinder it — not make it worse. Such legislative measures effectively remove work- This government has let parents and their children ers' statutory right to strike, a right that all unionized down, and then they've tried to blame it on the teach- employees possess under the laws of British Columbia. ers. This government failed to recognize the value of As lawmakers, we must recognize that. By imposing our educators and continues to do so. Bill 12, the government is choosing to violate the rights [0150] of British Columbians. Well, shame on you. Your job is It's strange. They fail to negotiate — yes. They fail to stand up and protect the rights of British Columbi- to recognize what true investment is — business- ans — all British Columbians. friendly government. It fails to recognize the value of a An extraordinarily long time period between con- strong public school system with strong and meaning- tract expiration and new settlements. A history of chal- ful input from the professionals, from our teachers. It lenges in reaching a negotiated settlement. Recent dis- makes a strong business case to listen to the people that putes ending in legislative intervention. Starting to ring know what they're doing, the people on the front line. a bell, I'm sure, to everyone. It sounds very, very famil- To ignore them is arrogant, and it doesn't make good iar to everyone in this province. business sense. B.C. teachers are not the only public sector workers The most educated and literate jurisdiction — soci- who have faced challenges in collective bargaining ety. These words, just words, are not reflected by cuts with their employer. But other employers have also to special education teachers by 17½ percent. The most cooperatively overcome those challenges rather than educated and literate jurisdiction will not be created by unilaterally imposing an unfair contract on hard- cutting teacher-librarians by 23.4 percent. The most working employees, employees that do a lot more than educated and literate jurisdiction will not occur with a they're recognized for professionally. It is recognized 20 percent cut to ESL teachers. by the parents that know what those teachers do and The most educated and literate jurisdiction. They're the students that get that extra bit from their teachers. words. They're just words for this government — For example, the city of Toronto, led by its munici- words like "negotiating in good faith," or words like, pal government leaders, recently negotiated a fair and "We will honour negotiated contracts," or words like: balanced settlement with the city's outside workers. "We won't sell B.C. Rail." We don't need to reinvent the wheel; we should learn Education is an investment. It is the most important from this. To not learn is folly. investment a government can make. It's an investment The outside workers had been without a contract in our children. It's an investment in our future. To for approximately eight months, had not reached a ignore that is at all of our perils, and maybe it's more negotiated settlement with their employer since the late important than Liberal corporate tax breaks. These 1990s, a millennium ago, and had been legislated back negotiations were set up to fail, not to create the most to work in 2002. So there are a lot of parallels here. The educated and literate jurisdiction in the world — a collective bargaining process and the relationship be- complete lack of respect, a complete lack of iisaak, a tween the municipal government and its workers ap- complete lack of recognition of the value of our teach- peared to be broken — another parallel. It's almost a ers. quote from the fact-finder brought in last week, with The government didn't need a confrontational ap- this report. Yet in this case the parties, with the con- proach. The government should do the right thing to- structive and cooperative support of municipal gov- night. The amendment — a six-month hoist amend- ernment leaders, were able to agree on a fair and bal- ment to second reading of Bill 12 — makes sense. If anced contract without resorting to legislation or job you put ideology aside, it makes eminent sense — for action. our education system, for a good workplace, but most The Toronto experience and experiences in other of all for the students. jurisdictions where governments work with their em- Increasingly in B.C., the government is choosing to ployees rather than working against them are evidence abandon the negotiation process and instead is opting of the possibilities and opportunities that exist through to make legitimate, lawful job action illegal. Whereas the negotiating process — still possible through this

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 645 negotiating process. The hoist motion is such an oppor- stood up to the bullying tactics of this government but tunity. Step back for six months. Meaningful negotia- necessary for the good of our public education system. tions will be in everyone's best interests. Teachers were forced to make a tough choice, one By imposing a settlement on B.C. teachers, the Lib- that I know they will be able to sleep at night with. eral government has chosen to discard those possibili- Although the walkout may be deemed illegal — and I ties and those opportunities, opting instead for further know everyone supports obeying the law — that's not conflict, worsened relations, deflated morale and an the question here. I believe British Columbians have outcome that will not benefit British Columbians and seen the frustration, the aggravation and the way that sure won't benefit students. this government has backed teachers into a corner to [0200] make the decisions they had to make. This government has consistently blamed the par- I had the honour and privilege of going outside ties — I think that's how it's termed — for the current tonight and meeting and talking with a group of stu- impasse that we are facing in negotiations. But who are dents from Victoria who were out there. If I can use a the parties? In B.C., although the Public School Em- saying from my good friend, Nuxalk Chief Anthon ployers Association formally represents the interests of Tsewalis, I would say: "That made my heart soar." the public education employers and school boards, its That's what it's all about. We're here discussing what's bargaining mandate comes directly from the provincial going to happen to public education. We're talking government. Labour relations experts refer to this dy- about the future for our children, for our young adults. namic as a phantom bargaining system, where the pro- [0205] vincial government is actually the employer and the I had the pleasure of meeting and talking to a bargaining items are matters of broad public policy. young woman out there, a grade 12 woman, Katie In other words, the government is, through the Daer. She sent in a three-page letter. I'm just going to BCPSEA, a party to these negotiations. They are not read a portion of it: separate. If anyone is to blame for this impasse, it is I'm a student. For going on 13 years I've been observing this government, which has tied the BCPSEA's hands education and the teachers that have come into my life. with a narrow and unreasonable bargaining mandate These teachers have not only acted as my educators — of that has left no room for constructive negotiations and math, science, etc.; they have taught me about life and the no room for compromise. It could take a bold step and person I am becoming. To me, they are not just teachers; allow for that constructive negotiation and compro- they are my advisers, my friends, my unofficial parents. mise to occur. It would be greatly appreciated by the You may be asking why I want to rant on about how people of this province. much I care about my teachers. The reason is that I care, because I know my teachers. The government basically has three options in negotiating with its public educators. One, they can take Mr. Speaker, we've got students coming into the gal- an adversarial approach by instructing the B.C. Public lery tonight, two at a time, to visit and see democracy School Employers Association to demand teachers con- in action. I'd like to welcome them all in. I don't know cessions at the bargaining table. They have taken this their names; I hope to get them. I'd like to welcome you approach, tying the employers' hands with a narrow here tonight. and unreasonable bargaining mandate that has left no Why are B.C. teachers taking a strong and coura- room — no room for constructive negotiation or com- geous stance against this Liberal government? There promise. are quite a few reasons. One, they've had no contract Two, though, is that they can take a legislative ap- for more than a year. I must note that when "contract" proach by imposing compensation and working condi- is mentioned, it was not a real contract. It was imposed. tions unilaterally through legislation. It was an imposed piece of legislation — not agreed to, not signed off, and not what teachers see as a valuable Deputy Speaker: Member, your time has expired. piece of paper. The last contract ended on June 30, 2004, and teach- G. Coons: I am here to speak on the amendment to ers are going into their second year of working without hoist Bill 12, as this government is out to pass this anti- a contract in place. After more than 30 negotiating teacher bill by the format of legislation by exhaustion. meetings with the B.C. Public School Employers Asso- But I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that as the evening ciation, no progress has been made. The government wears on and the days wear on, this side of the House representatives just repeat that their mandate from will not get tired of speaking up for quality education. government is zero for salaries, no negotiated im- We will not get tired of speaking out for the rights of provements in teaching conditions. teachers and all workers in this province. In the collective bargaining system the only pres- This government has taken the extraordinary sure employees have to make gains is through with- measure of changing the legislative calendar to meet drawing their labour when there is no agreement to the their own agenda, to ram this archaic piece of imposed terms of a contract. Rather than accepting the invitation legislation down the throats of our teachers. Teachers to open talks, to explore ways to improve the services in every corner of this province will take to the streets teachers can offer to children in our public schools, the tomorrow morning to protest in a way that they see as B.C. Liberals have once again resorted to archaic legis- necessary — not only necessary so they can say they lation to impose terms of teachers' employment.

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Bill 12, the new piece of legislated scrap — and I nated from the contract, there were counsellors cut and hope I'm pronouncing it correctly — extends the terms teacher-librarians slashed. Learning assistant teachers and conditions of the current imposition — which and English-as-a-second language and special educa- ended on June 30, 2004 — to June 30, 2006. That will tion teaching positions were chopped all over the prov- mean five years of imposed conditions of employment, ince by school boards in order to meet the budget re- no improvements to student learning conditions, and quirements. These were very vital services lost to stu- five years of being poked in the eye. dents who urgently needed them. Now, Mr. Speaker, I'm using this term for a reason, Many of these supports for students and working obviously: because the Minister of Education used that conditions for teachers had been achieved as a trade-off term. She was quoted in the Vancouver Sun September for salaries in real collective bargaining — when there 8. The minister said she had no intention of following a was real collective bargaining. We've heard it before colleague's suggestion that the government pass a law from some of the hon. members on this side. Teachers making membership in the BCTF optional. One of the accepted a smaller salary increase in order to have Liberal MLAs called for such an action during that more colleagues available to offer these important ser- month. "It's not something that's on my workplan at vices that also made the teaching job more rewarding. the moment," said the minister, then adding later: "I'm That's a key issue. A key issue is seeking to restore not interested in poking the BCTF in the eye every learning and working conditions for students and day." And that's it, Mr. Speaker. Not every day. Not teachers. There is no doubt — the research is there — every day is she poking the BCTF in the eye. But she that having smaller classes and sufficient quality sup- continues, along with this government, to poke with port services available in the school makes teaching confrontational legislation that every member of the more satisfying. Improved working conditions make it hon. opposition here will oppose until the other side possible to better meet the needs of students, and that shuts us down. is what teachers want, for the sake of both students and Another reason we're in this crisis is the teachers' themselves. previous contract. As I mentioned, it was imposed by Many teachers suffer severe job stress when they legislation. Teachers wanted to negotiate a contract last know they don't have the time and they don't have the time, but again, in January 2002, this government sim- resources to meet the needs of the students in their ply imposed the contract by legislation. That contract classrooms. This produces stress precisely because had severe consequences. It eliminated existing provi- teachers do care about doing the best job possible for sions that kept class sizes under a maximum and that all of their students. That is so much harder without would ensure many support services would be there adequate human and material resources. for the students that needed them. A Globe and Mail editorial said about class size: "It is [0210] a workload issue, but a legitimate one. A teacher who The impact of gutting negotiated collective agree- is always fighting fires is not teaching." ments was harsh on first nations students and on abo- I commend all the teachers out there tonight who riginal programs and services throughout the province. are watching the debate. I know throughout the prov- Programs that catered to the rich, diverse cultures of ince, believe it or not, there are people tuned in, and many aboriginal students were slashed, and first na- they're watching this. They're sitting there, and that's tions support workers were laid off as school districts why we're here. tried to meet the government's bottom line. I commend the teachers and the parents who are This government throughout their first term treated phoning and e-mailing and who finally feel that they first nations with disdain — the referendum, the cuts to have someone who cares, someone who will listen and services. The list goes on. This government really needs someone who will tell their story. I commend Abby a lesson in developing new relationships and recon- and Darren for being in the chamber tonight, here at ciliation. 2:15 — students concerned about education. That That imposed contract that I was just talking about makes my heart soar. also decreed a 2.5 percent salary increase over three [0215] years. However, there was a catch to that. That increase I had a few e-mails and a few phone calls from was not funded by the government, and nor were all people in my own riding — some teachers from Prince the other increases in costs, such as medical premiums, Rupert Secondary School, some friends and colleagues. other charges for government services and a host of When they heard what was going on, they e-mailed things that were downloaded onto school boards. As a and they phoned, and they said: "Here's a story that's result, we've seen school boards cutting the number of happening right now. I'm a law teacher, law 12. There teachers. Close to 2,600 teaching positions, nearly 8 are 40 students in my law 12 class. For the first couple percent of the teaching force, were eliminated by of days, many students had to stand. Finally, students school boards that no longer had enough funding to got kicked out of the class with a farewell of: 'Well, keep students in place. maybe if you complain enough, they might create an- Many services have been lost for students. Obvi- other class.'" ously, governments cannot cut large numbers of teach- That's what we've got to in our education system. If ers without negatively affecting the delivery of service you complain, maybe they'll get another class going for in some way. With the protection for services elimi- you.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 647

Another teacher in the same school, an English 12 teachers have frequently been on strike. The reality is classroom…. But since his course was mandatory, all that since 1993, when provincial bargaining was intro- the students had to remain in the classroom. One duced under the NDP government of Mike Harcourt, teacher marking 40 essays on a regular basis. This is not one single school day has been lost to a teacher simply absurd — an English class with 40. strike — not one day. Teachers did have a one-day An elementary teacher: protest in January of 2002 after that infamous imposed Twenty-two students in my class, many students with contract that stripped guarantees on class size limits, special needs. With the changes to the designation cate- stripped support for students with special needs and gories, it's been difficult to apply for support as they do stripped the special teachers' support from the contract. not meet the new requirements for special ed students. There have been some local strikes by school sup- Students in my class require full-time aid, as their needs are extremely high. I have a violent student in my class, port workers, and in those instances, teachers have with no support. No one knows when he'll explode, respected the third-party picket lines. But in the last throwing things, punching, running…. I was threatened dozen years, B.C. schools have never once been closed on my first week by another emotional and violent stu- to a teacher strike. dent who was tossing chairs around. When we talk about fearmongering…. We've We need to help and support teachers, Mr. Speaker. heard it on that issue from the other side of the I got a note from a parent who is also a teacher: "My House. In fact, in a number of school districts, stu- daughter is in grade 11 and was planning to take Eng- dents regularly lose days in a school, but it's a result lish literature 12. But at her school it's only offered of budget restrictions, not strikes. Several districts every other year, and thank goodness this is the year. have reduced school days to four-day weeks and But she had a conflict with another class, and she could nine-day fortnights. In the Terrace-Kitimat school not take it this year. So she will not be able to take her district they're on a four-day week. It's horrendous in English lit class." that school district. That was due to government cut- Mr. Speaker, these are the stories that must be backs and the underfunding of the system. When heard. That's why we're here, and we're going to be teachers do end up withdrawing teaching services, it here for quite a few more hours. will be because they believe that any harm in the Teachers are seeking improved working and learn- short term will produce improvements for students in ing conditions and a fair salary. They want to improve the longer term. conditions for their students and conditions for them- Now, Mr. Speaker, was there another way of re- selves. They also want a fair and reasonable salary in- solving these disputes? That's a question that comes up crease, as we all do. every time a strike is talked about. It's not fair or ac- A teacher membership poll conducted in June sent ceptable in a free society for any employer to be able to a clear message. A total of 98 percent of the teachers set the conditions of work with the employee having said it's important to have a collective agreement that an obligation to work no matter what the conditions. protects learning conditions like class size and the inte- There has to be some process of reaching agreement on gration of students with special needs. A total of 96 what conditions are acceptable. percent said it's important that bargaining rights are We've seen it all. We saw the full-page ads out restored. there. The cost, we couldn't determine after 18, 19 ques- What is the way out of this impasse? Teachers have tions. The Minister of Finance did not have an answer. indicated they'll keep trying to find a process that will allow for negotiated agreement. They were committed L. Krog: Priceless. to this before the strike vote. They're committed to this after the strike vote, and they will continue to seek that G. Coons: Priceless. framework even if there has to be a strike to bring the We did not know the answer. But in those ads, they issues to a resolution. Teachers want to reach a negoti- mentioned that the government has restored condi- ated agreement and will continue to work for that. tions, with $150 million provided to school districts. The full responsibility for this crisis lies squarely These funds will make up some of the improvements with the Premier and this government, as they chose this school year, but they don't even come close to re- confrontation and conflict over raising and resolving storing the stripped learning conditions that resulted issues. from Liberal arrogance. What about the impact on students if there is a Between 2001 and 2004 the school system lost 2,600 strike? Education does matter, and time in school is teaching positions. Only about 700 of those can be at- very important. Inconvenience for families is a reality. tributed to declining enrolment. But 1,900 positions However, if all other approaches to make improve- simply reduced many services to students through ments are exhausted, sometimes it's necessary to with- larger class sizes and fewer support teachers. School draw services as part of the process of gaining im- districts have reported to the province that they are proved conditions. hiring another 630 teachers this year. "Another good- [0220] news announcement" — that's what we hear all the I know teachers are very reluctant to take strike time on the other side. Big smiles on their faces, hold- action, and seldom have they been on strike. Because of ing up a piece of paper: "Another good-news all the media discussion of the issue, it may seem like announcement."

648 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005

This hiring of 630 more teachers…. This restores ince, and that's got to change. It's got to change this less than one-third of the number of teaching positions weekend. It's got to change with Bill 12. We've got to cut beyond declining enrolment. In addition, teachers start showing respect, not only to workers and to the are being replaced in some cases by education assis- health care system, but especially to our public educa- tants without professional training. While 2,600 teach- tion system. This is not only an attack on teachers but ing positions disappeared, boards hired 265 more edu- also an attack on our whole education system by this cation assistants in 2004. They are projecting another government. That's the reason we must hoist Bill 12 off 507 this year to replace those trained specialist teach- the table and start over to build relationships. ers. Special ed assistants have been hired to work with Teachers are frustrated and concerned. They want a students with special needs instead of teachers with the settlement. They're prepared to take on this govern- training and teaching experience to provide a rich edu- ment and its attacks on fundamental rights. They are cation that meets diverse needs in our integrated tired of being chastised and being bullied. schools. Here's a recent e-mail I got from a teacher in Van- Don't get me wrong, Mr. Speaker. Special ed assis- couver. I've known him for quite a few years. It's ad- tants are very important. They're valuable. They're a dressed to the Minister of Education. valuable asset to our schools, and they're a valuable Dear Minister: stakeholder in the public education system. But it's I'm extremely disappointed in your government's arro- wrong when specialist teachers are replaced with just gance in bullying through Bill 12. I'm a teacher with 30 assistants. It's a travesty to our students. years experience. I'm out on strike in defiance of your [0225] government's refusal to treat me and my colleagues with My riding encompasses four school districts: Prince dignity and respect. Rupert, Haida Gwaii, the Nisga'a school district, and Your offers of a round table are too little and too late. the Central Coast. All are rural, and most are isolated. We will have proper consultation with teachers and true, I just mentioned about the cuts in special ed and fair negotiations before we return to school. how assistants were being hired to replace teacher spe- [0230] cialists. There are a few facts and numbers I'd like to go We will have fair, full, free collective bargaining through. In school district 52 in Prince Rupert, we had rights the same as everybody else — no more phony es- 7.4 special ed teachers cut, which is a 27-percent cut, sential services in violation of international treaties. and 8.8 assistants hired. So they cut 7.4 and hired 8.8 Please end the hypocrisy of saying that teachers can't shut kids out of school. assistants. In school district 50, in Haida Gwaii, there were You and your government caused many districts to go to a four-day week. The Premier took his kids out of three special ed teachers cut out of a population of 51 school for weeks at a time — for early Hawaii trips. It teachers. It was a 65-percent cut in special ed teachers. doesn't make sense. Not only that, but they had a cut in their education Zero-zero-zero and a refusal to address our most assistants. Now that doesn't make sense, to my anal- important issues — learning conditions — is not bargain- ogy. They got cut in special ed teachers, and they got ing. Your government and BCPSEA are hand in hand in cut in their assistants. They also had a 13-percent de- your disrespectful, demeaning… crease in enrolment, but an 18.7-percent decrease in teachers. Somebody help me with these figures. Deputy Speaker: Member, there will be no more In school district 92, Nisga'a school district, there reference to personal families in the debate. were seven special ed teachers cut — that's 78 percent of their special ed teachers — and an increase of 6.4 G. Coons: Personal families? Okay. I apologize if I education assistants. In school district 92, in the Nass did. Valley, they experienced a decline in enrolment of 0.9 …and hateful treatment of me and my colleagues. We percent — pretty steady enrolment. But their teachers demand you return the class size clauses we had before, were slashed 8.7 percent. Try to figure that one out: which were bought and paid for with zeros and were sto- nearly a steady decline of student population, but 8.7 len by your government without compensation. percent of their teachers cut. This letter goes on to say: I can just picture it: class sizes ballooning, special I'm appalled at your lack of understanding of basic facts needs students into the classes. These are areas where about the school system you are entrusted to supervise. the students are needy. This is what is happening with Who told you that school planning councils set class their education funding. As I mentioned, these num- sizes? It's nonsense. Your Hansard statement: "We be- bers don't add up, except if you're punishing isolated lieve that the people best suited to make that decision are communities and claiming that things are looking good locally elected trustees and parents, and in fact students throughout the province. That is what this government and administrators, and that's precisely what we believe has done in the last four years to rural communities. should happen." Excuse me — what about teachers? There is more evidence of your refusal to even listen to That is shameful. anything teachers say. Did you know why school boards One reason that I am here tonight at close to 2:30 is were not setting ministry class sizes? Because your gov- for reasons like this — not only in education. It's in ernment told them not to. It would be too unpleasant if health care. It's in public services. It's what's been hap- teachers and parents could look up actual class sizes. pening throughout rural communities across the prov- And now you attack boards as if it was their idea.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 649

We require more than vague promises. We are In the last two days I have received dozens and standing up for our rights and the needs of public school dozens of e-mails from teachers. Listen to some of the children. We require action. Please negotiate. statements that I have received from them. This is a Signed, a Vancouver teacher. primary school teacher, who says: "Not enough books, Mr. Speaker, as we stand here tonight, that's what's readers, texts and math manipulatives. We have to happening throughout the province. share resources between four classes. This is not acceptable." Another primary school teacher: "There Deputy Speaker: Thank you, member. Your time seems to be not enough money allotted to purchase has expired. textbooks and keep supplies current and abundant. These are the tools teachers need to do their job." R. Chouhan: On Thursday afternoon in my speech Another teacher: "There are not enough up-to-date to oppose Bill 12, I asked the government to adopt a texts in math, social studies and science for lower ele- more conciliatory and constructive approach, not con- mentary grades." Another teacher from intermediate frontation. My colleagues, all 33 of them, have asked says: "Not enough textbooks in French." Another the government repeatedly to do the same, and ask the teacher says: "We need up-to-date videos on drug and government to work with teachers, not against them. alcohol abuse issues, peer problems, teenage problems Again, at 2:30 in the morning, I'm asking the govern- — on all issues. Everything is very old — 20 years old. ment, once more, to be more constructive and concilia- Access to phone numbers, e-mail addresses for speak- tory and drop this path of confrontation. ers and local film resources, written material — none After the election we heard from all the govern- available. Film catalogues are usually U.S.A. and scant ment spin doctors that it would be more conciliatory in our schools." and not ideologically driven. But obviously, that was Another teacher is telling me: "We have 30 social not a sincere statement. It didn't take too long to show studies texts to share with about 120 students." That's its true colours. This government, when it comes to what is happening in the schools, and they asked me to dealing with working people, has always adopted a read all their statements. very hostile approach. Be it health care workers or the Another one is telling me: teachers, the government has always treated them with Also weak: special needs, ESL and counselling support. total disrespect. The B.C. Liberal government always The underlying structures and processes in the student's chooses conflict and confrontation as the first option. life are an effective and strong learning and teaching op- Ten days into the last election the Premier deliber- portunity. Unfortunately, the values being taught ately used fearmongering about a so-called teachers through the learning conditions as they are being set up strike. Teachers never wanted a conflict. All they want now are not ones with which most teachers agree. I is a negotiated settlement that will help the teachers to would consider going back to teaching French immer- have better working conditions and provide students sion if the textbooks used were up to date. The science better learning opportunities. For four years this gov- textbook I have in my class is dated 1982. ernment deliberately pursued action that provoked a That's from a secondary school teacher in Burnaby. conflict with teachers. [0240] [0235] Another teacher is telling me: "More resources are The B.C. Liberal government tore up teachers' con- desperately needed in math and language arts. An up- tracts in 2002. By doing this, the government legislated to-date computer would be nice. We still do not have the learning and working conditions from the teachers science textbooks for intermediate students. Our text- collective agreement, and now, rather than dealing books for science and math are very out of date. Our with it in a mature and constructive way, it has once technology is very out of date." again chosen the path of confrontation. Another teacher sent me an e-mail saying: When the government stripped teachers of their My spelling textbooks are from the 1970s. I have a grade- self-governing body in 2003 and overruled the B.C. seven student who's working at a grade-two level, and Supreme Court decision on classroom composition in many people cannot understand him when he speaks. He has never had an aide assigned to him and struggles 2004, and when the Premier used the teachers as politi- to keep up his reading, writing and mathematics. I have cal pawns in the 2005 election, it proved that this gov- other students who are working below grade level as ernment has absolutely no respect for educators. When well, and because I am already teaching three grades, this government says it has introduced Bill 12 to pro- these students take much time that is needed for others tect students' rights to be in the classroom, nobody can who are also entitled to the teacher's help. take this government seriously. These are the kinds of things that are happening in If the government is serious about students' educa- our schools, Mr. Speaker. How can we expect our tion, then it should negotiate with teachers in good teachers to give our students the kind of education they faith and not use the hammer of legislation. The gov- need when we don't provide them the tools they need? ernment has lost its credibility. This government is I have received a total of 78 e-mails just on textbooks only concerned about and cares for its rich corporate alone. This government needs to set its priorities right friends. It has no problem finding millions of dollars and allocate an appropriate amount of funds to ensure for the rich, who did not even ask for it, but it has no that teachers have the necessary tools to teach our stu- money for more textbooks. dents.

650 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005

In the last four years in Burnaby we have seen a very clear. The government is deliberately provoking drastic reduction in counsellors, teacher-librarians, confrontation. The government should take a step back career program teachers, special education teachers, and meet with the BCTF and let British Columbians continuing education teachers and ESL teachers. How know that you have changed your last four years of an does this help students? Teaching is a very noble pro- attitude of disrespect towards the working people. fession. Teachers are pleading for help. We know what this government has done to the Class sizes have grown out of proportion. It has health care workers by tearing up their collective become a serious problem in the province. Again, listen agreement. Thousands and thousands of ordinary peo- to some of the statements that other teachers have sent ple lost their jobs because this government wanted to me on the class size issue. I received 49 e-mails just on please its multinational corporate friends. As a result, the class size situation. I won't read all, but I'll read not only the workers suffered, but the patients and some. long-term care residents suffered the most, because One teacher says: "Far too many special needs stu- they lost well-qualified and well-trained health care dents in intermediate elementary classes. Quite frankly, professionals. many students are not even receiving adequate atten- Now the government is doing the same thing to tion. I have 31 students and cannot keep up with the education. We saw the attack on the teachers in 2002, marking, reporting and demands made on me by spe- and the government is continuing on the same war- cial needs students. Also, I can see what special educa- path. What this government is doing is not necessary. tion resource teachers…. We have been pushed far too Bill 12 increases the level of confrontation with teachers hard with undoable caseloads." and does nothing to improve the learning in the class- Another secondary school teacher is telling me: room. The government chose conflict and confronta- I feel that I work very hard on behalf of my students. I'm tion instead of working with teachers to find a solution typically on my feet coaching and encouraging after each to this impasse. As a result, parents and students are lesson until the end of class. I feel bad about this. There paying the price. are simply too many students in my class. The students Once again, I ask this government: think again. You are not getting the quality of service they deserve, as a re- don't need Bill 12. You don't need confrontation. Work sult of being packed into large classes. Two out of my with teachers. Find a solution. If you really want to four classes are okay, but one class has 33 students, of help the students, there's a way to do it, but not the which several are a challenge. The other class has 32 students plus two deaf students. Space and equipment are a way that this government is trying to enforce on British problem for both of these classes. Columbians. [0245] [0250] Another teacher is telling us: My classes are all larger, and there are sometimes up to H. Bains: I also rise to speak in favour of this hoist one and a half designated students. We do not have edu- bill to delay Bill 12 for six months. I'm not particularly cational assistants to help us with the special needs stu- pleased to be standing here today, speaking on a bill in dents. I'm not able to give as much individual attention to a democratic society such as Canada in 2005 — a coun- each student with the larger classes. I have more students try where we champion democracy, where our country with special needs now than in the past. The students in is used as an example of how democracy should work. my class have a wider range of needs. We're debating a bill that strips away a democratic These statements…. There are so many of them. right of a group of citizens, a group of dedicated indi- They're all asking for help. viduals who are fighting for the education of our chil- Teachers are not against inclusion, but they need dren. support to make it work. Teachers have supported Teachers, as the other side has said, are an essential inclusion, but it is a lot more work to teach a class that and integral part of our education system. Teachers includes students with special needs. Most teachers shape our future, the future of our province and the have supported a policy if adequate resources are pro- future of this country. Teachers produce leaders. vided to do a good job, but the current situation, as is, Teachers, with their hard work and with their dedica- does not allow our teachers to do what they would like tion to their profession, produce people such as the to do. Nelson Mandelas of the world and other leaders who We are advised that Mr. Vince Ready has been ap- have given so much to mankind. pointed as the industrial inquiry commissioner. Mr. In a mature democracy such as Canada's we Ready is a very experienced and respected arbitrator shouldn't have to stand up to vote or speak against a and mediator. I have done many arbitration hearings bill that is designed to strip away some of the basic with Mr. Ready in the last 18 years. Mr. Ready could fundamental rights of its citizens. I am pleased to stand have been appointed under the existing provisions of here to commend those teachers who are fighting for the Labour Code to help the parties negotiate a collec- the education of our children, and I am proud to stand tive agreement. He could still make his recommenda- here to fight for democracy, to maintain democracy. tions about the bargaining process. That option is Let's talk about what led to all of this. Why are we available to this government. here today? Over what? It's nothing to do with improv- I don't understand why this government is pushing ing education, as the Liberal government would lead Bill 12 to create that unnecessary confrontation. It's us to believe. It is not about children, as they lead us to

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 651 believe. It is all for the political gains they think they Let's talk about negotiations and the government's are trying to gain. But they are wrong. They will be arguments of why the system of negotiations broke proven wrong — if not now, in years to come. They down, why the system doesn't work and why the sys- will be proven wrong. Our generations to come will tem failed them. For any negotiations to succeed, you talk about these legislations as we talk about previous must build trust between the two parties. You must legislations that we today think were unjust legisla- win trust. You must build respect for each other over tions. the term of the agreement. You don't legislate people, dictate to people, if you Let's look at what they have done in the last four disagree with them. Teachers have a basic fundamental and a half years. They did everything to break the right in trying, just like any other workers in this coun- trust, if there was any at that particular time. They try in our Charter of Rights…. The right to association came in. They chose conflict and confrontation over gives them the right to free collective bargaining, and if negotiations, over consultation. They came in, and they the bargaining process for some reason isn't working tore up their collective agreement in 2002. They for a period of time, you don't shut it down. You don't stripped teachers of their self-governing body in 2003. take the right away from them. You find a way to make They overruled a B.C. Supreme Court decision on class it work, but you don't take it away from them. That's composition in 2004. They used teachers as political what is being done here — not the first time. As the pawns in the 2005 elections. Then they refused to meet members have said earlier, six times already for the teachers when they had a chance to make progress. same group of people. They refused to meet with them. You don't build trust [0255] with that kind of record. You're asking for trouble. You Mr. Speaker, let's talk about some of the reasons are setting a system up to fail. This legislation increases that this government thinks or argues why they believe the level of confrontation. Make no mistake. they have to do this. [0300] I'll talk about that in a minute. I must say that to the Let's talk about some of the other things that hap- credit of our teachers, although their salaries have pened in those four and half years that were so neces- fallen behind the rest of the jurisdictions over the years, sary to building that trust to come into negotiations. although they have been treated with total contempt by They froze funding for education for the first two years this government, although this government showed no and on top of that, I might say, downloaded on school respect for our teachers, and despite the fact that their boards expenses such as teachers' salaries that were contract was stripped of class composition and class imposed on them, MSP premiums that this govern- sizes, despite the larger class sizes that they had to ment raised by almost 50 or 60 percent. Utility bills work with, despite the fact that they worked without went through the roof; school boards had to absorb adequate help for special needs children in their that. Transportation costs went up; school boards had classes, despite the fact that they had to work without to absorb that. As a result, school boards had to close ESL teachers on many occasions to support ESL stu- 113 schools — laid off 2,500 teachers. You don't build dents in their classes, they continue to maintain educa- trust with that kind of record. When you have no trust, tion at a remarkable level that I commend them for. I you're setting the system up to fail. It is this govern- thank them for that. ment that set up that system to fail, and this is the government that should be blamed for the chaos and for Interjection. the crisis that we are in right here today — no one else.

Deputy Speaker: Member, can I remind the mem- [S. Hammell in the chair.] bers of the House that they have to be in a seat to participate in the debate. When you build that kind of record and on top of that you say, "Let's start negotiations," and then you H. Bains: I'd thank them because they care for the tell your negotiators that you can't talk about money, education of our children. They are willing to stand up you can't talk about learning conditions, you can't talk for the education of our children. They made sacrifices. about class sizes, you can't talk about class composi- They're prepared to make sacrifices — personal sacri- tion…. Well, what is there to negotiate? Four and a half fices, I must say. They sacrifice their salaries in order to years of confrontation and conflicts, four and a half negotiate learning conditions in the collective agree- years of total contempt towards teachers, four and half ment, and I thank them for that. years of no respect towards the teachers, and then you I thank them because they are up at this hour, out go into negotiations, tell your negotiation team that there, watching and listening to this debate. I thank there's no money, there's no room for negotiating learn- those students that are out there. There are about 50 of ing conditions in the classroom…. What are you ex- them. They came to show support for their teachers. At pecting? The system is set up to fail, and the system three o'clock in the morning they're up because they has failed. There's no one to blame except this govern- care. They care about their teachers. They care about ment — no one else. They have to take full blame for the education. They're worried about the direction this this. government is taking our education system towards. I live in a part of this province which probably is That's why they're out there. I thank them for that. the most diverse part in Canada — perhaps in the

652 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 world, I might say. You go into some schools, and it's of…." There's the "l" word, Madam Speaker. I'm not changing. It's changing over the years. The makeup supposed to use that; it starts with "l" and ends with and composition of our student mix is changing over "e." I'm not using that. He's trying to say that it's not the years so drastically that in some of the schools truth. where you hardly found any student of colour, now [0310] you find mostly south Asians — students whose parents' first language is not English. An Hon. Member: Is it a three-letter word? [0305] In a city like that, in a school system like Surrey, Deputy Speaker: Member. this is what these cuts have done. I've heard members from the Liberal government side argue: "Well, the H. Bains: It's opposite to truth. enrolment in all of the province was lower, so we had to close schools. We had to lay teachers off." Deputy Speaker: Member. First of all, those numbers are not factual. That argument is not factual. Provincewide, it's not factual. It's H. Bains: Sorry, Madam Speaker. not supported by the facts. …to the public to garner sympathy for the justness of an Let's talk about Surrey. It's one of the fastest- arrogant and manipulative action. There's no collective growing regions in the lower mainland. We are gaining agreement as first of all, there's no collectivity, no mutual- over a thousand citizens every month. In very few ity about it. Secondly, there's no agreement. It also cannot be called a contract, as a contract is defined as an agree- years Surrey will be the largest city in the province. ment between parties for supply of goods or perform- Since this government took power in 2001, we have ance of work at a specified price. There's no agreement; increased in enrolment. On top of that, as I said earlier, there's no contract. the makeup and the composition of our schools and What is in place is a legislative act that is legal law students have also changed quite dramatically. simply because legislative acts are deemed to be laws. But instead of providing resources through the Does that make it right or morally correct or in any other school board to deal with those issues, what does this way a decision based on wisdom and intelligence rather government do? This is what they did. They reduced than the pure manipulation of power to control a dissi- dent body of citizens? teacher-librarians by 18 percent. They reduced special All teachers are aware of the consequences of their education teachers by 19 percent. They reduced ESL actions of civil disobedience. No true social gains have teachers by 16 percent, at a time when enrolment went ever been made in society without the illegal actions, up over 1,800 students. over many centuries, of citizens that properly objected to I'd like to have a member from the government laws that were imposed by power and control of the citi- stand up and justify these numbers. I know no one will zenry, except perhaps when a truly liberal — meaning stand up, because I know that they can't justify these "generous" — party is in power and not just one philoso- numbers. phically that has the interest of big business in heart and minds well before that of its citizenry. From 2001 to 2004 the student population in Surrey It just shows how frustrated these teachers are, when increased by 1,844 and the teachers were reduced by they have to go to that length, how worried they are 142. How do you justify that? Then you talk about how about our system. we respect our teachers. We know that they are an es- Here's a parent: sential part of our education system, but you strip I'm writing in regards to Bill 12 and the law imposed away their rights, you strip away resources, and you upon teachers that education is an essential service. I be- tie their hands and take away resources that they need lieve, as a parent of a child in school, that it is detrimental to do their job properly. That's not progress; that's go- to his growth and development to impose a contract on ing backwards. the teachers, who are asking for improvements to their There are some telling stories from teachers, and working conditions and the conditions for students in the here's one. A real teacher, really concerned, is saying classroom. this: How can this current government say that education is an essential service when they themselves have not How can Bill 12, the Teachers' Collective Agreement Act, provided for essential services to those children who be called just that? The name is an oxymoron. If the act is need extra help or have special needs or have some for- imposed by the Liberal government in the Legislature, mal learning disability or behaviour problems? If you then it is not an agreement and it is not done collectively. vote for Bill 12 and continue to deceive the public into How foolish. This is an imposition, created and chosen thinking that the government can possibly prove that by one side, with no basis in satisfying both parties. education is an essential service, there will be a public There's no agreement between the parties involved. The outcry. teachers have not collectively had any input. All other unions and professional associations should be very con- Madam Speaker, these are the kinds of comments cerned about this attempted legislation. Who is the gov- you hear on the streets. These are the comments you ernment trying to fool? Now is the time to seriously re- are getting on e-mails from parents, from students. I've consider how we elect a representative in the Legislature. got a stack of these papers — comments from students. This is one teacher saying that. Some of them are out there, as I said, supporting their Here's another one. "It seems that the current Lib- teachers. eral government continues to use the basic technique Here's one that was given to me:

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 653

We as high school students feel that our school environ- the public understands. That's what the parents under- ment is getting out of control. Some students are in a stand. But do the members on the government side class with 66 students and only one teacher. How does understand? That's the question. the government expect a student to learn lessons for their future when they barely have the time and resources to I urge those members once again: rethink your po- answer a simple question? sition. Take this time of six months that this amend- In many of our classes, we use photocopies of text- ment is asking. Give the mediator, inquiry commis- books. One of our students who is four weeks into the sioner — whatever it is called — a chance to work on a first semester has not received a textbook, not even a system. There's no rush. There's no urgency to pass this photocopied one. Another student says that her French bill. What is the urgency? None whatsoever. Delay it. teacher is using a prep period to teach a class and is not Let that process that is put in place, that system, work. getting paid for her hard work. Let them find some way of resolving this issue rather [0315] than stripping away the rights of our teachers, the very Students at Claremont Secondary are sitting on the same group that both sides agree is a very essential floor to eat their lunches. Many students are catching part of our education system. Give it some time, lie colds and flu due to a freezing cold breeze that runs back, and think rationally. Allow the system to work. through our school. In the computer lab there are three classes with nine students and six desks with no walls [0320] separating them. The equipment is overused and ineffi- cient; some students do not have a teacher yet for com- G. Gentner: Hon. Speaker, the lateness of the hour puter programming. Our portable does not have access tells me that I again…. With such a late hour, I'm to the PA system, a clock or heating. overwhelmed and overjoyed with the fact that your Teachers are not thrilled to come into work with cur- presence is at the chair — the member for Surrey– rent conditions, which in turn reflects on students. Extra- curricular activities require a lot of extra time, effort and Green Timbers. You do bring elegance and grace to this dedication, and teachers generally go without recogni- chamber, and it's much appreciated. tion for the essentially volunteer work that they are do- I think it has to be said…. I don't know if it's been ing. These activities contribute positively to enriching said at all. However, I hope the House will concur that students' education and attitude. a special thank-you has got to be given to the staff here With the course load nowadays, students are afraid tonight — all those people running around: the com- to miss days of school due to a fear of falling behind. The missionaires; those housing the restaurant; those look- government said that with education as an essential ser- ing after us late at night; Hansard people, who are vice, it would be tragic for students to miss a day of school, yet last year the school year was shortened in making sure that they capture every one of our words. school district 63. Good government means that you do have a plan B A lot of teachers have to pay for school supplies they or several approaches in order to secure a good posi- need, such as whiteboard pens, because schools are not tion. Any decision-making means that having one op- receiving adequate funding. Neither students nor teach- tion is really no option at all. One thing for certain is ers are getting the support or respect they deserve. that if you begin steadfast, with certainty, without do- Teachers are expected to do too much for their time to the ing your homework, sifting the ground around you in jobs that they are being underpaid for. They are overworked and unappreciated. This affects the students, be- order to find the best solution…. If you start with cer- cause they are not receiving the level of education they tainty, you can end up with distrust. That is what we should be. The government's lack of funding will have a have here tonight — or this morning. When you've lost negative effect on the future of this province. trust and you've lost morale in the workplace, you They are worried about the future of this province. have nothing. These are the students. These are our future leaders. There is no reason here with Bill 12. There's only These are our future Prime Ministers talking about our reaction, knee-jerk reaction in a government that's lost education system, which they are so worried about. Do its way. The government tore up the teachers' contract the members on the government side care about that? in 2002. It stripped teachers of their self-governing Not a bit. As yet they haven't shown one bit of respect body in 2003. It overruled a B.C. Supreme Court deci- for the education or for the teachers or for the students, sion on classroom composition in 2004. Now there is an despite the arguments that they make. The only thing amendment before us that the government should at they worry about is their political gains. Madam least take a hard look at. But as we've heard from the Speaker, let me tell you: they will be wrong. They will Government House Leader, the members opposite be proven wrong. The public is on the side of the refuse. teachers. I support the amendment put forward by the mem- The public understands how important it is to re- ber for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant, because it does spect their teachers in order to have a world-class edu- give an opportunity for the collective bargaining pro- cation system. They understand the sacrifices that our cess to work. Powerful forces have been built up to this teachers are making. They understand that the de- moment. We know there is probably a need for a little mands and the positions of the teachers are reasonable. less rhetoric and to allow the government to maybe They understand that the teachers are not fighting for step back. This amendment is a safety valve to release their own cause. They understand that the teachers are some steam, perhaps like an overheated radiator that is fighting for the education of their children. That's what ready to blow — a six-month valve that will encourage

654 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 conciliation. But no, that is not what this government something that I think would fit this government's wants. It wants blood. style — you know, the free enterprise, the virtues on It is time for government to lead and to set aside its which they expound all the time. Burke said: "Barter, mean-spirited confrontation. Settlement of a new con- negotiate." It's simple. Burke did not believe in insur- tract requires that both sides — yes, both sides — make rection or upheaval. We all know that. He was a con- compromises in the best interest of the public. It must servative. start with a government that should represent goodwill This, my friends, is exactly what this government and take a step back and put faith back into the collec- deliberately and calculatedly has done. The govern- tive bargaining process. ment is deliberately attempting to destabilize our pub- Instead, this government works in haste. We all lic education system. Why? Several reasons driving this now know that haste breeds contempt — contempt agenda. Well, through all the rhetoric we've heard and against any part of society that may have a differing surely, whatever bond the Minister of Education may position than that of this government. The disrespect assure us of, make no mistake: this dismantling is to for teachers can only manifest itself into something destroy public education. completely vile, because it can cast its shadow on other [0330] everyday British Columbians. It is pitting people We hear how wonderful this new budget is in the against people and whole communities and groups provision of public education, but let's look at it a little against school boards. This political baseness will be closer. Since the Liberals took office in 2001, let's look at seen by the public for what it truly is: a low blow to public-student head counts — basically stable. But in- decency. terestingly, private school head counts are up 8.2 per- [0325] cent. And get this: when you analyze the budget from Concessions are extracted slowly and sometimes last year to this year, funding from the province for the grudgingly. Let's stop for a minute and take a closer operations of public schools is said to increase by 3.4 look. The government and the B.C. Teachers Federation percent, while — get this — funding from us, the pub- have reached an impasse. The government, instead of lic, for independent schools has increased 5.6 percent. taking the slow road towards a settlement, has in- You have to ask yourself what's happening here. flamed a possible strike. The only means left for teach- The bulwark of democracy is based on the premise ers is to try and break the logjam by the last means it of an equitable public school system. When you look at really now has, and that is to possibly go for a strike. projections between 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 we are And with brute force, indeed brute, the B.C. Liberals seeing operating funding to public schools to increase will use teachers as their whipping post because of by 0.001 percent and private school funding to 4.6 per- their own innate, embedded weaknesses: an intoxica- cent. That's not to say that private schools don't play an tion of power — a binge that has lasted for four, un- integral part and a role in our cultural diversity and checked years. our religious need — an integral part, an important I want to remind the members across that this is no part of our society. longer 2002 or 2003. The problem is that this govern- But clearly, there is a fundamental shift whereby ment does not feel any tangible incentive to compro- the government may be seeing privatization as a means mise in its bargaining posture. We need a pragmatic to an end. A means that is not measured could very approach. As pluralists to labour relations, there is a well undermine the precepts of the fundamental right need to balance countervailing powers, a balance that of public education. I bring this to the attention of the is concrete, not regressive or punitive. It's time to break assembly because this is the general philosophical bent down the barriers between the ivory tower as seen of the Liberal government: deny accessible public across from me, and the real world, where teachers, schooling with proper working conditions for teachers, who are real people, should get a fair wage and proper with reasonable pay for work delivered. working conditions. I must say, after the example I want to quickly, with my short time available, talk we've seen here for the last few days, one good teacher about some of the issues in my constituency of Delta in British Columbia is worth a thousand Liberal politi- North. I had a call from a teacher this afternoon. She cians any day. told me her situation. Here's a teacher in north Delta As Aristotle once said: "All who have meditated on who has a class composition of 28 students. On the the art of governing mankind have been convinced that surface, that sounds pretty good — 28 students. In to- the fate of empires depends on the education of youth." day's world, sometimes we hear the stories of 34 or 36 Unfortunately, the Liberal government does not see it to a classroom. But when we look closer, we see that 11 that way. Education is also the encouragement to of those 28 students are IEPs, or I should say, individ- weigh all thoughts before acting. It is also about giving ual education plans — those with reading and learning and taking. I like to quote — I suppose, of all people — difficulties, and exceptional students. Edmund Burke, who on occasion had some wisdom, The IEP is not a daily lesson plan. The IEP also particularly for the need to compromise: "All govern- helps teachers monitor the student's progress and pro- ment, indeed every human benefit and enjoyment, vides a framework of communicating information every virtue and every prudent act, is founded on about the student's progress to parents and to the stu- compromise and barter. We balance inconveniences, dent. The IEP is updated periodically to record any and we give, and we take." Edmund Burke. I'm quoting changes in the student's special education program and

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 655 services that are found to be necessary as a result of ers — have the same right to engage in collective bar- continuous assessment and evaluation of student gaining as their private sector counterparts, including achievement, annual goals and learning expectations. in particular the possibility of a right to strike? I say It's a team concept with a series of meetings and a yes. Could there be external monitoring and restraint monitoring system that takes time in assessing student of the economic content of public sector compensation needs. There are meetings with counsellors, learning settlements, whether by peaceful negotiations, by assistants and parents, and when you multiply that by strikes or by third party, like we've had, called a fact- 11 students, there's no wonder that the teacher in- finder, which this government has completely ignored? volved is spending countless 14-hour days to get Yes. through the task. Regrettably, the usual tenor of the discussion tends But that's not all. Of the remaining 17 students, 14 to be long in rhetoric and short in analysis. We wit- are ESL students — not just ESL, but level one ESL; in nessed this openly, disparagingly, with lots of brash other words, beginning ESL students. If you know my from the other side. community, we're going through transition. We have The perennial dilemma in the public sector bargain- what we're calling rainbow schools. Rainbow schools ing is whether government employees, or teachers, have a great diversity and multiculture. They're very should have the right to strike. Should they have the successful. But there is a growing need for more ESL right to gain collectively with the government em- attention, and of course, we're not seeing it. These stu- ployer? An affirmative answer has already been given dents are falling through the cracks. They need help, throughout all of Canada. and they deserve the same equal opportunities as Indeed, municipal employees have been included many students find in private schools now, in propor- under our general labour legislation since it emerged tion to which public schools are receiving the lion's just after World War II. During a decade from the share. We're seeing a fundamental shift in the bulwark early '60s to the early '70s our senior levels of gov- of democracy, which is represented by the public ernment — federal and provincial — have duly school system. granted their employees full-fledged bargaining [0335] rights. The determination of salaries of civil servants Other comments today on the phone. "I teach a and teachers is certainly one of the most crucial of all grade six–seven split class of 34 students, including government decisions right at the heart of the public two ESL students and one physically handicapped policy-making process. We live in a democracy student. I find it hard getting around to all the students founded on the principle of the political equality of who need help. Also, I'm out of space in my classroom. the individual. We are literally bumping into each other." This is a [0340] teacher who has had 30 years experience. She knows. Governments are to be elected by all of the people, She has seen the system. and they should be accountable to all of the people. You have to have some trust in all the tenure that's How do we settle bargaining disputes or deadlocks in been put into our system. Again, if you don't have public employment? There's obviously one side that trust, you have nothing. claims that any strike by a public servant is illegal or Another teacher on the phone today suggested 30 illegitimate as a matter of principle, that it is always a students in a classroom…. But with the amount of ESL strike against elected government. students arriving monthly, it's very difficult to plan her I find it very surprising — the long tenure and the curriculum. reputation of the member across, the Attorney General, Another one told me today that children with behav- who I thought would know better. But I guess I'm ioral problems often detract from the learning experiences wrong. of others. "Teachers need to be informed as to what is or is On the other side, of course, there are those who not acceptable, and the office of the board needs to work will say that it's wrong to discriminate against teachers quickly and efficiently to deal with behaviour-challenged by denying them a fundamental right enjoyed by their children. I find we as teachers are putting up with a very private sector brethren. What we need is a sensible and much deteriorating social system." practical system of labour management relations for If I have a chance, Madam Speaker, I will certainly the government and its employees, in this case the continue to bring to the attention of the assembly some teachers. An illegal ban on teacher strikes is not the of these concerns of the teachers in my constituency. solution to the problem. To resolve any deadlock in I believe that collective bargaining for teachers is a bargaining between government and its teachers, we good thing. A system of collective bargaining requires need a cool-handed approach, not one of total confron- that the employees have some route to follow if they tation. We must provide an alternative means of re- cannot persuade the employer to change its mind. It's a solving and negotiating deadlocks, which precipitate very tenuous situation here, because the employer is such work stoppages. those who are across the way here. They're the ones There are three ways to settle a dispute. The easy with the stick. one, of course, is that all parties should agree. If you This dispute is a microcosm of the central issues look at the history of labour in British Columbia, about which are raised about public sector bargaining in gen- 98 percent of all conflict is settled without a strike. eral. Should public employees — or in this case teach- That's an incredible record. When confrontation erupts

656 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 and it is encouraged, and the fire is fed like we're see- We have a divide. There's no question. What we ing from across the way here, we are going to see a have on the table today is a motion to bridge that di- strike. We're going to see a strike, if that's what this vide. If this government accepts that motion and sim- government wants. ply amends this act to buy itself more time to allow the I can tell you, Madam Speaker, that no one wants a true collective bargaining process to proceed, then they strike. Teachers don't want a strike, really. They don't can save face, we can continue on with our new rela- want to lose their paycheque. There's a living here. tionship together, and we can allow the collective bar- They've got families. They want to uphold principles gaining process to go forward. that are dear to them. I've been there too. I've been in I want to spend a few minutes talking about de- public service. I delivered to many what may have mocracy. That's the sacred trust that we as members of been seen, in a previous job, as essential. I've been in- this Legislature have been given. We are the champi- volved in various strikes. I'm telling you, a strike is not ons of democracy in our society in British Columbia, what anybody wants. Nobody wants a strike. If you're and if we don't recognize that role, we do a disservice on the picket line…. I've seen many friends lose their not only to this generation but to future generations. house, lose everything they fought for. Many of them The more we allow our democracy to be undermined took three to four years before they were to achieve…. by the very people who should be the strongest cham- But they stood up. They stood up for principle. That's pions of democracy, the more we shame ourselves and what has built this country and this great province — we shame future generations. There's no question in the ability to stand up. my mind that that is what's going on today. With as much integrity and forthrightness as I can In Canadian democracy we have the three terms: muster here tonight, I plead with this government to peace, order and good government. I think those have a second look and consider the amendment put should always be something that we go back and re- forward by our opposition critic of Finance, and it's a flect on, something that we look at and say: "Are we good one. In geological time, six months is not a very abiding by our version of democracy?" I guess my chal- long time. I think we should reconsider and give it a lenge to the members on the other side of the House is: good look. is the course of action that this government's taking [0345] good government? Does it constitute good government? In my mind, the answer is a resounding no. This B. Simpson: If this isn't baptism by fire, I don't is simply not good government. It's not good for de- know what is. When I decided to run for election, I mocracy. It's not a good message to future generations. didn't imagine I'd be put in this circumstance a few It's not good government. months later where here I am at quarter to — what is The one thing we have to understand is that de- that? — four in the morning. By the way, I'll make an mocracy is messy. It's a messy form of governance, announcement. I have Visine in my office, if anybody because it invites debate and dissent. That's the very wants to kind of clarify their eyes. essence of democracy. If you don't have debate and We have a serious matter before us today, and the dissent, you have a totalitarian regime. If you don't levity that I started with…. I don't want to undermine invite it, you have a totalitarian regime. So every time the seriousness of this issue. We're speaking on a mo- this House passes an act to squash dissent and to tion — and I'm speaking in favour of the motion — that squash debate, that's not good government. I think is a face-saving motion for this government. It We have a sacred trust, and that sacred trust is to buys them some time. It allows them to continue on the democratic process. Because democracy is messy, with what their stated purpose was in this sitting of we have structures in place to try and make it more this Legislature. It was to find a new working ar- streamlined, more structured, to try and allow the de- rangement with the opposition. bate and the dissent to have form and to allow it to As our leader has indicated many times, our job as make progress. In this case, those structures are things the loyal opposition is not only to oppose but to pro- called collective agreements and contracts. pose. We are in opposition to this act. There's no question about that. We have an ideological divide. We on Collective agreements and contracts are mecha- this side of the House believe in the public education nisms to allow debate and dissent to occur in a democ- system. We believe it is fundamental to a free and de- ratic society but still to make progress. Every time this mocratic society, and we believe that it must be sup- House abrogates a collective agreement or a contract, it ported. does a disservice to the democratic process. It does a We also believe that the members on the opposite disservice to good service. It does a disservice to cur- side of the House believe that the private approach to rent and future generations. education is the preferred approach. As the hon. mem- [0350] ber who just spoke before me indicated, the money that You're going to get sick of hearing me saying this, is going into that system, the way that it has received but we have a sacred trust as defenders of democracy. I more money from public coffers over the last few years would challenge this government to reflect on a few and the undermining of the public system, driving things that are going on around us just now: debates people into the private system, is proof positive of that we've had in this House, things that we're struggling agenda. with as a society here in British Columbia.

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Let's talk about business contracts. I find it rather This government did not have to put this bill on the ironic that we wring our hands and think it's disgust- table. They did not have to. There's a collective bar- ing that the American government plays with the rules gaining process underway, and the Labour Relations of NAFTA. We think it's atrocious that they get rulings Board has the right of law in this case. The Minister of from the WTO, that they get rulings from the NAFTA Labour admitted publicly that they didn't need this act. panel, and that they just fail to adhere to them or pay Well, if they didn't need it, why is it on the table? It's attention to them or that they try and do end runs on the table simply because what this government did around them. in 2002 failed. They did not do what they promised in Well, I would remind the members of the govern- 2002, and as a consequence, they're in another situation ment side of the House that in 2004 the B.C. Supreme of their own making, and they have to fix it. And how Court made a decision on classroom composition, and do they choose to fix it? They choose to fix it by tabling what did this government do? It overruled them. another act that's very similar in nature to the one they There's a certain hypocrisy in the government's posi- did in 2002. That's a failure of this government. It's not tion on this, where we say that it's not right for the a failure of the collective bargaining process, as the American government to interfere with NAFTA, to Minister of Labour claimed; it's a failure of this gov- interfere with due process, that the American govern- ernment. ment should pay attention to the WTO and the NAFTA Hansard of January 26, 2002, on Bill 27, the Educa- rulings. Yet they don't have to pay attention when the tion Services Collective Agreement Act. I think it's very Supreme Court makes a ruling on classroom composi- interesting that one of the previous speakers talked tion because they're the government; they can change about how that's an oxymoron, because that's exactly the rules. That's hypocrisy, and I would challenge the right: it's not a collective agreement. How can you have government members to reflect on that. If you have a a collective agreement act when you legislate an out- standard for the American government, apply the come? It makes no sense. standard to yourself. The Hon. Graham Bruce — and my understanding, In my riding there is a lot of angst around private Madam Speaker, is that I can name him because he's no crossings. Many, many people on fixed income have longer a part of this Legislative Assembly; see, I'm now been burdened with huge costs with their private learning — stated as he tabled the bill: "This bill settles crossings over what used to be B.C. Rail. The Minister the teachers dispute and provides a collective agree- of Transportation has claimed time and time again that ment between the parties." I think we heard that in this what this government did is to stop the political inter- House this week by the current Minister of Labour — ference. Well, what are we doing today? We're debat- the same language. Again, as many speakers have ing an act that is political interference in the collective pointed out, that language makes no sense. It is an in- bargaining process. That's hypocrisy. appropriate use of the power of this Legislature to say To say to us that for years the NDP — and of that this bill settles a dispute. It does not. It imposes a course, to use that member's own rationale, the Social resolution that's in the favour of the government. Credit government must then have been doing the That's not settling a dispute. My point is: it's the same same thing — has politically interfered with B.C. Rail, language as we've heard this week. and therefore people didn't pay for the private rail This bill settles the teachers dispute and provides a col- crossings, and then to turn around and say it's okay for lective agreement between the parties. It also provides for them to politically interfere with the collective bargain- the appointment of a commission to review the struc- ing process — that's hypocritical. There's no other way tures, practices and procedures for collective bargaining in the education sector. We are taking this action because of saying it. this government puts students first, along with the teach- We have contracts that we honour, and this gov- ers of this province. Because this dispute has dragged on ernment would be very hard-pressed to interfere with too long and has shown far too little potential for a set- business contracts, because there would be a hue and tlement, we've had to act. cry about, "Oh well, it's not good for the marketplace. The current Minister of Labour must have gone Oh well, we don't want to undermine our credibility. back and just pulled this language right out of January We don't want to destabilize all of those contracts," if 2002 and read it into the record again this week. What it's a business. But if it's a union — a public sector un- does this tell us? It tells us that for the last two and a ion — that's okay. We don't have to worry about un- half years this government has not made any progress. dermining confidence. We don't have to worry about Not the employers association, not the teachers bar- what it says to the people out there, because for some gaining unit — this government has not made any pro- reason public sector workers don't count in this gov- gress. It tells us that for two and a half years this government's mind. That's hypocrisy. ernment has been sitting with this language spinning [0355] in their head, waiting for this day when they could just We have a sacred trust as legislators, and that sa- pull it back out and put it on the table again. cred trust is to continue to support and adhere to the I want to point out something that's interesting in due process of law and due process in a democratic the difference between when that bill was tabled in society. Every time we undermine that, we undermine 2002 and when the bill was tabled this week. The Hon. our own democracy, and we undermine our own role Graham Bruce at the time said: "I want to be clear: I as good governors. value teachers. Everybody in this House values teach-

658 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 ers, and this government as a political entity values this government to put students first, this government teachers." That's not in the record this week. That has had to act. Students must come first." Now that statement is gone this week. This week the Minister of sounds more like the Minister of Labour's talk this Labour said the principle at work here is that students week. "I know — and I hope the vast majority of teach- must be in the classroom. That's what he said. So the ers believe this — that the teachers, like this govern- language has changed, and I think it's changed sub- ment, put students first. That is what this bill is all stantively. It's a telling omission from the Minister of about. I look forward, with the passage and enactment Labour's statement in the House this week. of this bill, to moving ahead to fulfil the commitment to [0400] our young people" — to moving ahead. Well, I chal- Now, the other language from 2002 that's important lenge this government: how much have we moved for us to remember is the statement about what this bill ahead in two and a half years? How much? does and doesn't do. It goes on to say from the hon. The interesting difference between the bill that was Graham Bruce: "This bill brings a difficult process be- tabled in 2002 and what we have today is that in that tween teachers and employers to a conclusion after ten bill, they put the commission into the bill. In today's act months of hard work and 45 issues on the table." It's they did not. And I question that. I wonder if it's an very similar language to what we heard this week. But admission of failure, because that process failed. It Mr. Bruce went on to say: failed to bring forward anything meaningful that Mr. Speaker, this bill also provides me, through this min- teachers could agree to, and in fact, its failure is evident istry, with the authority to appoint a commission to re- in the fact that this government didn't even table the view the collective bargaining structure. As we're aware, report in here from that commission. We already have we have not had a negotiated settlement since prior to the Premier on record saying that he may not even 1994. The structure in place is not working. It's incum- adhere…. In fact, he says he's not going to commit to bent upon us as government to take action to review the process as it's currently constituted and see if there's not a adhering to what the outcome of the industrial inquiry way that we can develop a new process that will better commission would be in this case. allow for negotiated settlement, so that in years ahead So we have a government in place that does not we're not back here having to do the same sort of thing." honour the basic tenets of our democracy. They do not For those on the other side, let me re-read that: understand what good government is. They table bills "…so that years from now we're not back here having to settle what should be settled in a collective bargain- to do the same sort of thing." Well, it's two and half ing process. They use the power of the law inappropri- years, and we're doing the same sort of thing, only it's ately, and that is a very slippery slope. not the same sort of thing. It's the exact same thing. [0405] It's a failure of this government, not a failure of the I want to talk a little bit about public sector work- teachers, not a failure of the employers association. It's ers. This government seems to feel that it has the ability this government's failure, because they took the task to legislate — and I would call it legislative abuse — upon themselves in 2002 to fix the bargaining process. our public sector workers, that they can get whatever They didn't fix it. They didn't come to any conclusion they want not through due process of law, not through on it, and as a consequence, we're exactly where we due process of collective agreement, but by law. were in January 2002 because of this government's in- I think it is the height of self-righteousness for ability to do anything meaningful in this dispute. members of the government to stand up in this House Now, I know that every time I stand up in here, I and say: "Teachers are going to be lawbreakers. Does risk the hon. members on the other side of the House the member of the opposition support lawbreaking?" pointing out that all it is is rhetoric. Well, I would re- It's self-righteous, when you have the power of the law mind them, I'm reading the words of one of their own that you can use to settle disputes in your favour, to members, who was a minister at the time, two and a then turn around and say, because you've forced other half years ago, and that they're in the same boat with people to contemplate breaking that law, that they're their own minister, in the same position, saying the wrong and you're right. That's self-righteousness in the same thing. So this isn't my rhetoric; this is their rheto- worst case. ric. This is Mr. Graham again, January 2002: “Every- I wonder what those same members would do if body would have preferred if this legislation had not their backs were pushed up against the wall, if they saw been necessary.” Well, this government had the agenda all around them due process being misused by the peo- in the intervening two and a half years. They could ple whose sacred trust it is to ensure those processes have made sure that it wasn't necessary again, and they work. What do you do? What's your course of action? didn't do it. If you're a lawmaker, you change the law. If you're not "It's always preferable when the parties reach a a lawmaker, what do you do? negotiated settlement" — not if you've got the hammer It's a slippery slope if we in this House play with of the law. He didn't put that in there. I'm not reading the law to our own ends and then turn around and his words; those are mine. Not if you've got the ham- blame those who don't agree with us as lawbreakers. mer of the law. "It's always preferable when the parties That's how societies end up in an anarchic state. That's reach a negotiated settlement, but in this situation, after how anarchy comes about, because anarchy is simply ten months, with the disruption that was occurring saying: "The laws of the land don't work; they don't within the educational system and the commitment by make sense to me. Every time I turn around, I become a

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 659 lawbreaker, not because I want to be but because the When this Legislature undermines due process and laws don't make sense and because the laws under- democratic process and forces teachers' backs up mine our democratic process." That's how we make against the wall, when those teachers go into the class- good citizens lawbreakers. rooms, what message are they bringing? Even if it's the It is the acts of this government that's causing that teachers themselves that defend their own students to happen. Let's make no mistake about it. Public sector from that, the very fact that they are there, the very fact workers in our society have been maligned for too that our society rails on them, that they see on the tele- long. We scapegoat them. vision that teachers are this or teachers are that, that I was at a placer miners meeting in Quesnel. I was teachers have to be legislated to a collective agree- the only politician in the room. If anybody's had any ment…. That says volumes about our disrespect for the dealings with placer miners, they will know that teaching profession. they're an ornery group at best. One of the things that So when that teacher steps into that classroom, we happened in this meeting is that the people started to have put baggage on them. We've surrounded them beat up on the bureaucrats in the room, who I have to with an aura of disrespect that makes it that much give great credit for, because they came in and met more difficult for them to do their job, that makes it with the 60 or so placer miners who were there. I stood that much more difficult for them to create the kind of up in that room and reminded those folks that our pub- society that we want. lic sector workers are constrained by the political I can't remember who the person was that said it, agendas of the day. but they said that teaching is one-third preparation and It's the politicians who pass the laws. It's the politi- two-thirds theatre. I can tell you, from being in the cians who create the framework. It's the politicians classroom for years, that that is true. Our children to- who ought to bear the burden of their own choices. Yet day, because of the society they have grown up in, unfortunately, our public sector workers often have to need that kind of interaction. So the teacher prepares bear that burden. but then figures out how to, as we would say, pump up the volume. They go in, and they engage and energize When a parent complains about the level of service their lessons. that they're getting for their children in the education Think about that for a moment. Think about the system, who has to bear the brunt of that? It's not us. psychic energy, the emotional energy that it takes for Very seldom does it come to us. It takes a very edu- somebody to get themselves up in the morning, get cated, articulate citizen to understand that they've got into their classrooms and then take themselves up a to come to us and talk to us. They blame the teachers. notch to pour their heart and their soul and their en- We must do everything we possibly can to support ergy into the children of our society and the children those teachers in those circumstances. who make us capable to continue to have a progressive Because of that malignment, because they've been and democratic society. scapegoated within our public sector, we have a great Think about how much energy that takes and think deal of learned helplessness, a great deal of disen- about how, over the years…. I would agree that succes- gagement. I would challenge the government members sive governments have undermined the role that of this House that unless they change their relationship teachers have had in society, have undermined their with the public sector across the board, whether they're ability to deliver that to our children. Then think about health care workers or whether they work in the vari- all the social issues we're dealing with — the increased ous ministries, as well as with the teachers, there won't homelessness, the increased mental illness. You take a be a golden decade. There won't be the five great goals. look at how many people in our society are reverting to Those are the people that are going to help make that drugs and reverting to other ways of opting out, and happen. The relationship that this government has that's what teachers are bearing. You look at what they with them is increasing the disengagement, not de- have to do in the classrooms today. If anything, this creasing it. It's increasing the learned helplessness. It government should have a bill on the table declaring will undermine the government's own agenda. 2006 the year of the teacher. That's the bill we should Not only have we been given a sacred trust, but our be debating together in this House. teachers have been given a sacred trust. In many ways As I said last night, the Organization for Economic theirs is a more definitive one and a more important Cooperation and Development gave this government a one, because they engage our young people. They en- very strong message. They gave this government, gage the young minds of our society. They engage the which uses that organization to benchmark the school future generations of politicians and doctors and law- system, policy implications for achieving the goals that yers and teachers. They are the people who create a they desire out of the school system. So this govern- progressive, democratic society every day they step ment uses that organization to benchmark. The organi- into a classroom. zation has tabled a report that says, “Here's how you [0410] get what you want,” and two things in that report, as I If they are demoralized, if they are disheartened, if pointed out last night, are to increase the remuneration they have been undermined by the legislators of the of the profession and better their working conditions. land, then what kind of society are we equipping them This government listens to that organization when it to create? What messages are we giving them to create? comes to benchmarking the school, but it won't listen

660 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 to that organization when it comes to giving them ad- The teacher continues: vice on policy. In a year only about four or five children in a school can be tested, so not all my needy children will be looked at. Some may have needed testing since kindergarten. This C. Trevena: I would also like to speak for the class is not even as needy as my last year's class. These amendments. Like the member for Cariboo North, I do children I have listed each require help and attention. If I also think this provides an opportunity for the gov- give them the time they need, then my other students ernment to save face. It provides an opportunity for have to fend for themselves more than is fair to expect of real negotiations with the teachers, a chance for dia- them. If I attend to the main body of the class, then the logue, a chance to try and go beyond the rhetoric and needy ones will not be able to cope or even maintain a semblance of controlled behaviour, let alone actually try and find something that will work for the teachers learn anything. and for our children. The concerns I have listed are not exhaustive. There [0415] are many more stresses and continued degradation of I think everybody has had enough of a confronta- student learning conditions. It is demoralizing to see the tional approach — a confrontational approach which system getting worse as I am leaving it. Teachers work this government has forced on our society. People are hard to improve the learning, but in spite of this, because of the continued attacks by the government, we are los- wanting to see a positive solution. Madam Speaker, ing ground. This needs to stop. you've heard other members talking this evening about I fully agree with this teacher. This does need to stop. — what there is to negotiate that if the teachers can't This is degrading. This is degrading for the children, talk about their pay and they can't talk about their the families, the teachers, our education system and working conditions, we've taken away everything they our community. If this is how we treat people in our can talk about. We do need to move beyond this to talk community, I think we really have many lessons to about the very real issues that are affecting our teachers learn ourselves. and, therefore, our children. [0420] One of those issues…. There is the pay, and I'll go The letter that I quote is from a teacher who is close on to talk about that. One of the main issues is the to retirement. The teacher has dedicated her life to the working conditions which lie in their workplace, in the profession and to the children she's charged with. She's classrooms — often very overcrowded classrooms. dedicated her life to inspiring and leading them Classrooms with 30 or 40 students in them, where chil- through the educational experience, but she is leaving dren with special needs do not get the supports they downhearted. She is leaving knowing that she cannot require, despite the best efforts of teachers' assistants, do her best because she's not given the resources. make it detrimental for those children, for other chil- This teacher is perhaps, to me, emblematic of what dren and for the teachers themselves. is happening here in B.C., because this wouldn't be I spoke earlier this evening and gave, I think, some happening if we hadn't got an imposed contract im- very vivid examples of what it is like to work in big posed again and if we'd had negotiation instead of con- classes. It is a terrifying thought, having large classes, frontation as a solution offered by the government. large science classes — 30-plus kids in a science class. Instead, this government goes for a solution of imposi- These are unsafe working conditions. They are unsafe tion rather than discussion. conditions for our children. Teachers' working condi- We talk, on this side of the House, about class com- tions also include school libraries, they include equip- position and class sizes in a very depressed sense be- ment, and they include other staff members. cause we are seeing in our own communities what is I'd like to share with this House a letter I received happening in those classes — what class composition from a teacher in Campbell River, in my constituency. I really means. It means many, many children in a class. find it sums up some of the issues facing us in what is a Teachers, to become teachers, do know basic math. I very needless dispute. The letter, which came today, have teachers in my constituency telling me of class- reads as follows: rooms where they have more students than desks. That Today I removed my personal belongings from my class- is very basic math. It doesn't work. Thirty-six students room so that if I'm not able to return, I will not lose those belongings. These are belongings that help me teach and don't go into 30 desks, and the teacher can't get around that I would not have in my classroom if I did not buy the 30 desks and the 36 students. them myself. The trunk of my car was full, mostly with One teacher in Campbell River puts it this way: books such as novels, factual books and manipulatives. I In order to accommodate the number of desks, there's no left much behind as well. My car has only one trunk. space between the last desk and the back wall. I had to I have a classroom of 30 students at the grade-six walk all the way around the class to get from one side to level. I have three students diagnosed with Asperger's the other. When the students worked in groups, I could- syndrome, two of whom are also learning-disabled and n't navigate between the groups because of lack of space. one of whom also has seizures; also, one hearing- Many times I'd be marking an assignment only to realize impaired student; three students diagnosed with ADD — that a student I hadn't been able to get to hadn't under- attention deficit disorder; and a number of other students stood the lesson. Normally, I've been able to correct them who have learning problems that have not been ad- as I worked. dressed, as there is a long list of students who need test- With fewer divisions of students, it became impossi- ing each year by a psychologist who is only able to be in ble to separate all of the kids who needed to be separated the school half of a day each week. to avoid negative dynamics. This created class manage-

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ment problems, which were exacerbated by a lack of I represent a rural community, so some of the pres- physical space in the classroom with which to separate sures are different. It's not all big classes. Sometimes it's behavioural problems. There were too many kids. Most split classes: grades four, five, six and seven being of my time went to classroom management, and less and taught by one teacher or kindergarten, one, two and less time went to actual teaching. I was and am frustrated, angry and exhausted. three taught by one teacher. I would ask the members opposite to imagine demands. This is a person who is a professional. We have trusted I heard from one rural teacher saying: "I found that our children to their care, to their experience, to their the reduction of staff and the expectation to maintain role as a professional — as someone who is going to the same level of service and activities and events very guide and teach our children. Instead, this person and hard on all of us. There is unnecessary stress and nega- many teachers across the province are finding that in- tivity placed on individuals, and this is unacceptable. stead of teaching, they are dealing with classroom Our school has 99 children, and we have 3.5 teachers — management issues. They are dealing with how to 3.5 for 99. This" — and the teacher's quite right — "is make sure that 36 kids can get some semblance of edu- unacceptable." But that is good. They now have more cation, make sure that a classroom does not turn into teachers than they did in June. an unruly scene, make sure that there is some educa- Another person who is dealing with a split class: "I tion going on. But the teachers are depressed and are have 24 students in grades two, three and four. There giving up. are three identified with special needs and five others I have had, as many of colleagues have, many letters that require learning assistance. I receive an hour of and e-mails about this. I'd like to quote from some of assistance during one morning and one afternoon. The them because, as I mentioned earlier on when I was talk- only way I survive is by having parents as volunteers." ing to the House against the bill — now I'm talking in Sadly, a survey of teachers who are working has favour of the amendment — I really am concerned that found that if they had the choice, only about 60 percent the members opposite aren't talking to teachers. I have of them would enter the profession. I think that those been talking to teachers; they've been talking with me. 60 percent are very optimistic. I'm glad that they are I'd like to share some of their experiences. This is from still there, that there are people who want to enter the some teachers in the Port McNeill–Port Hardy area. profession. But one of the things that really concerns [0425] me with the way this government is approaching our From one of them: education system, because what this bill is about…. It My job this year is very spread out: 0.5 kindergarten, 1.8 is about our education system. It's about what we want grades two and three and 0.32 as a learning assistance re- to see in our education system and how we want to see source worker. I use both Saturday and Sunday to pre- our education system develop. What concerns me is pare for the week. I have an autistic child on my caseload how we are going to attract new teachers to the profes- who has 0.1 of my time. That's three 30-minute blocks a sion. week. There is no time to meet with the special education I've talked to many teachers who have retired, are worker. They are not paid for extra time. This is the first close to retirement or — as those who were quoted — year in my 14 years of teaching that I have really hated my job. I look forward to retiring. are going to retire because they can't stand the stresses anymore. They say: "Well, I may as well take early re- What does that say about what is happening to our tirement. It's going to be a lot easier than it is dealing education system? What does that say about the way with the pressures of work that I have at the moment. this government is treating the teachers? It is not the reason I went into teaching." If I may carry on: "Overworked, overstressed, over- [0430] — loaded just hanging in there. I have to deal with How are we going to attract quality, new, young more social issues than in the past. This takes away teachers into our system, into the profession? It is es- from teaching time." This is a teacher with 26 years' sential that we do. But a newly graduated substitute experience. teacher gets approximately $128 a day, no benefits, and Another said: "I have had to take leave because I may be faced with a student loan of $45,000. cannot handle the marking load and the worsening Why would they enter the profession? They'll never behaviours of the students. Thank goodness my career be able to pay off their student loans. Why would they is nearly finished. I feel sorry for the colleagues who enter the profession when they know that they could have many more years of teaching left, if you can call it earn more as a Mountie or in industry and get their that anymore." weekends off and get respect and promotions and ac- These are from professionals who have worked all tually be able to maybe one day buy a house? their lives with our kids, sharing their knowledge, bringing them on, leading them through. We have ex- [H. Bloy in the chair.] amples. We've all talked about our examples of our favourite teachers. These teachers are ready to quit. I think if you're a working teacher and you're start- They are ready to quit because they have seen a gov- ing off, this is an idle dream. Why would people want ernment impose a contract again — not listen to them, to enter the profession when they know they are going not talk with them, not look at the fundamental issues to be degraded and insulted by their government? As that concern them which are their working conditions. the hon. member for Nelson-Creston mentioned a cou-

662 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 ple of days ago, there is the issue of substitute teachers Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Surrey–Green who are living on poverty-level wages, who are taking Timbers earlier gave a short history of public education other jobs to make ends meet. in this province, and I'm glad she did. Like the member I know a number of newly graduated young teach- for Delta North, I believe that this is really what we're ers. They're going to get their degree in teaching with debating here. We are debating the future of our edu- hope. It's something that if you're a teacher…. I believe cation system. it is a vocation. There are some teachers who are just The Leader of the Opposition quoted Nelson Man- completely dedicated. They want to teach, and they are dela earlier. I'm afraid I will too. This is a man whom I the best teachers. But those young teachers that I've think the whole world respects. I think the members talked to who want to teach, who would be some of the opposite have to admit that he is a man of huge integ- best teachers for our province, are leaving. They're rity and of huge moral grounding. He said of educa- leaving to go to other provinces because they will get tion: "We place such high value on education because it paid more, and they're also leaving the country. is through education that the vast potential of our They're going overseas. They have the skills; they have youth can be realized. The well-being of every person the qualifications. It's attractive. and the prosperity of our nation depend on investment I know of newly graduated young teachers who've in people, central to which is education." gone to Thailand, to China and to Turkey because there However, crowded classrooms, no equipment, isn't the opportunity here for them. There isn't the pay fundraising by parents, bingo money to provide here for them; there isn't the respect here for them. equipment in playgrounds — this is not the sort of They see no future working in the teaching profession, public education system…. I think there is definitely an working in our education system, given the past four ideological difference between our side and the gov- years when they have seen what has been happening ernment side. There is a philosophical difference. There to our education system. For them, that is their future. is a sense that what this government is doing with the Their future is getting educated here and leaving, tak- bill that it is putting forward, which is why I support ing the skills away. the amendment, is because this government is under- So young teachers go abroad, or they go into other mining the public education system, without which jobs. They decide that they have done their teacher our society would start to fall apart. training and realize that they will never pay off that It's undermining the public education system so student loan. They go to jobs where there is better pay, that those parents who can afford it can send their where they get supported rather than undermined, children to private schools, because they want their where they don't have to bring their homework home children to have a chance. You underfund the public on weekends, where they don't have to spend time education system. You demoralize the teachers. You preparing for classes on Monday, where they don't make sure that there are crowded classrooms, that li- have to spend evenings working with other people and braries are closed, that there aren't the band programs, where they don't have to spend their own limited that there aren't the extracurricular activities, that the money because there isn't adequate equipment or ade- system is unpalatable — that children are not going to quate supplies. be able to get the education they deserve. So those par- These are young people who would have made ents with some money decide: "I'm going to put it to excellent teachers and contributed to the society in my children's education, because I don't like what's which they were raised. They would have contributed happened to the public education system." to B.C. They would have made something of B.C. They would have led other young people through the educa- Some people might say that it's a conspiracy theory. tional experience so that they could maybe have gone The member for Delta North quoted some very trou- on to teaching. We have lost them. These are eager, bling figures, but I would like to point members to committed young people who have been driven away what has happened in Ontario, where the growth in by government actions. This is not how we build a ba- private education, in the so-called charter schools, has sis for an education system for the future. grown exponentially. After years of a right-wing gov- [0435] ernment that underfunded the public education sys- To ensure that we do get high-quality public educa- tem, people in Ontario looked at what was happening tion, we have to really look at the way our teachers are in the public schools and thought: "I don't want to send treated and the way our teachers are paid. We have to my kids there. I will make a sacrifice. I will pay to send make sure that there is a balance there. Our teachers my kids to a different school, to a private school." are among some of the lowest-paid in Canada, and the This is a very frightening scenario, and I think it is a administrators are among some of the highest. We do scenario which is being played out in our province, need to make sure, obviously, that administrators are because this government will not commit to dealing paid fairly for the work that they do but not at the cost with issues such as class sizes. It will not commit to of our children's education — not at the cost of school making sure that our education system is publicly boards and school districts hiring extra administrators, funded. making the system top-heavy when we need to get Public education is a right. It's a right which our teachers working and we need to build up the school teachers, the teachers in B.C., are fighting for. It is a programs. right which we should all support.

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Education depends on the teachers. It depends on Teachers care. They care about education. They care their classroom conditions. It means many things. It about the future of our children. They care about our means that kids don't have to keep their coats on at future, our society's future. Their rights cannot and school, as some kids in a rural school in my constitu- should not be dismissed in such a callous way. ency did in June. The heat was turned off because they I sometimes read the Declaration of Human Rights. were saving money. I've worked internationally, and it's there by the side of It means making a commitment to keeping libraries my desk. I think that in this instance the government open and staffed with teacher-librarians. It means mak- might want to look at it also. This is also fundamental ing a commitment to keeping the school bus service to this discussion, and that is on union rights and the running so children can get to school and get home fact that in article 23.4, "everyone has the right to form from school safely. and join trade unions for the protection of his inter- The downloading, which I talked about earlier in ests." Well, the "protection of his interests" includes the evening, has impacted on all of these, but these being able to negotiate, being able to talk about pay conditions, these basic things such as school bus ser- and conditions. vices, impact on the way our education system works. This government is showing its contempt for teach- Good public education is at the root of civil society. ers in its disregard of their basic rights. It's showing, in [0440] the way it's treating them, contempt for the teachers This government is trying to set parents against and for students. It's not allowing bargaining. It's not teachers by saying that the teachers are leaving the kids allowing classroom issues into the debate. This bill, I alone, that the teachers are ignoring the kids, that we're believe, is reprehensible, which is why I'm speaking to looking after the kids — all the rhetoric about children. the motion. I would like to bring to the House's attention a couple [0445] of letters I've had from parents who are fully supportive of what the teachers are doing and fully suppor- M. Sather: I rise to speak in favour of the amend- tive of a good public education system — a funded ment to Bill 12. Let's go back down memory lane a bit. public education system, a system that their children We've been doing that a lot in this discussion, and the can go through from K to 12. year 2002 has been talked about quite a bit. I want to go back there again, to 2001 and 2002. In 2002, that was I have a copy of a letter to the Premier and the Edu- the time, as we know, when this government sowed cation Minister from one of my constituents in Camp- the seeds of which some folks, unfortunately, are hav- bell River. It reads: ing to reap the bitter harvest. Those are the teachers Education is a priority in our household. We concentrate on our child's learning, his well-being and his sports at and the parents of this province. I wanted to talk more school. Since taking over the government, your Liberals about the pretext and context of how we came from have concentrated on shredding the education system in there to here, so I want to talk a little bit about what this province. The tax dollars we are forced to pay are not was happening back then. I think members opposite going to the future of B.C., our children, our legacy. will perhaps be interested in some of my comments, Where is the money going? We see huge projects as- because it's a subject about which they talk quite a bit. sociated with the 2010 Olympics yet very little being put As we know, in 2002 the government erased limits into education. You have stripped the school boards of on class size, class composition and staffing require- their funds, therefore stripping the teachers of their ments for specialist teachers. That's the beginning. That wages and dignity. I have seen new teachers forced to take meagre minimum-wage jobs to supplement their is what we're still talking about. That's what the teach- horrible teacher wages. They're coming out of university ers are so upset about. But why? Why did that come with huge student loans only to find that teaching jobs about? Why did they do that back then? Was it just an are part-time. isolated incident, or was it part of a bigger plan, if you My constituent writes to the Premier: will? I think it was part of a plan. Get these teachers back to the classroom. Treat them the At the time, as you may recall, the government said same way you treat your close political friends in the — and they continue to say, actually, in reflection — business world. that we were in such bad financial shape back then, She concludes: they just had to do something to fix it up. They were I was a Liberal all my life, but the last few years of crony- duty-bound to fix the horrible financial mess that the ism have disgusted me and made me look at other par- NDP had left for them. So they proceeded, but they ties. had a little problem with that particular justification. I also have, from another person — a parent in full The problem was that the NDP government had left support of the teachers: them with two balanced budgets — two balanced My kids are in an overcrowded, underfunded public budgets. That's a big problem when you've got a plan school system. My kids are going to be spending many and the plan says: "We're in terrible financial shape. hours this year, as they did last year, with unhappy, We've got to do something about this." How were they stressed-out teachers. Professionalism can only be carried so far, and the Liberal government has pushed the limits going to justify it when they'd just been handed two beyond any acceptable margins. I will do anything I can balanced and surplus budgets? to support the teachers in their battle with the Premier It's interesting to hear some of the members oppo- and the B.C. Liberal government. site. The member for Vancouver-Burrard last week was

664 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 certainly indulging in a considerable bit of revisionist pay down this structural deficit." That was their justifi- history and was saying how we went from deficits un- cation. That was how they did it. They came up with der the NDP to surpluses under this government. I'm the so-called structural deficit. scratching my head and thinking that's not the way I Then they launched into doing something. My God, remember it. they didn't really want to do it. Their hearts were torn, and they're still torn — right? You hear them all the Hon. G. Abbott: You must have missed the 1990s, time saying how much they hate to have to impose a then. contract on teachers, and they hated then to have to gut the public service, or so they said. I'm not convinced M. Sather: I must have missed something, the that they really did hate it. I'm not convinced of it at all. member says. What did the member opposite miss? I If you look at what some conservative governments told you, hon. Chair, that the members would be inter- have done, other than this one…. Look at the George ested in this subject. I'm glad to see that they are. We Bush government, running huge, huge deficits. There's need a little enlivenment here at ten to five in the no particular caring about financial accountability — morning. not at all. I think this government was utterly reckless The government at that time, yes, did go to first, in what they did at that time, and we're still experienc- but what did they go to first in? Well, in the second ing the ramifications, unfortunately, of what they did. year of their mandate they brought in the number-one What exactly — I'm going to talk a little bit more biggest deficit ever to hit to the province — ever. That's about this structural deficit — is a structural deficit, number one. That was a good shot. That was preceded then, since it was somewhat of an unknown term to a by a deficit, also, of over a billion dollars in their first lot of folks? A structural deficit means, essentially, that year and succeeded by another deficit of over a billion no matter where we are in the business cycle, the dollars. This government does a lot of bragging about budget can't be balanced. their financial prowess, but they aren't batting 500 yet, [0455] so I wouldn't get too smug about it. But wait a minute; that doesn't fit. They just had [0450] two balanced budgets. Well, I don't think this govern- They had a problem, as I said. They're trying to ment is necessarily long on logic. I really don't. But revise history in order to do what they really wanted to spinning…. They're good at spinning — very, very do, and they had to have some justification for that. good at the spin.. And the more they spin and the more Their choice really had nothing to do with finances — they make up things, the more they are able to con- nothing at all. It had to do with philosophy. It had to vince some folks that what they're talking about is true. do with ideology. It had nothing to do with finances. Again, it's borrowed from the playbook of George What they proceeded to do, as we all know — al- Bush. If you tell a lie, you want to tell a big lie, and you though the members opposite deny it…. They had to want to tell it over and over and over again. We saw gut public services. I say "had to" advisedly, because I that with the weapons of mass destruction. It's hard to don't think they really had to. I think, in fact, it was believe that a government would actually mislead the something that they were quite willing to do. Why people like that. It's hard to believe but nonetheless were they willing to do that? Because they had some true. payoffs to make — that's why. And they proceeded to In fact, at the time we were in a cyclical deficit give their friends in the corporate structure huge tax situation as a result of an economic turndown. We all cuts — huge tax cuts. Who had to pay for those tax remember that 9/11, which happened at that time, cuts? The people of British Columbia had to pay for it. definitely threw a wrench into the economies of the People in the public services certainly had to pay world. Also, at that time the government didn't have for it. This government went on to gut the public ser- the good fortune with some of the things that hap- vices of this province to pay for the tax cut that they pened later on that they take a great deal of credit for gave to the corporations of this province. That's exactly — all this wonderful work that they've done in balanc- what happened — exactly. One of those public services ing the budget and bringing surpluses. that took the brunt of their hits was the education sys- What, in fact, really is responsible for the balanced tem. That's what we're talking about with this bill: the budgets that happened last year and this year? A lot of education system and how hard it has been hit by this luck, actually. A lot of luck accounts for it, primarily. government. Record-high commodity prices — I don't think this The justification, though, wasn't complete. You had government is responsible for those. In fact, I know two balanced budgets that you were left with. What very well they aren't. Thirty-year-low interest rates were you going to say the problem was? Well, mem- spurring a business boom — that's what's responsible. bers opposite came up with "the structural deficit" — Also, let us not forget the massive transfers of money remember that? I doubt that few people had ever heard that they got from the federal government and con- of a structural deficit. I don't even think many mem- tinue to get from the federal government. The NDP bers opposite had heard of a structural deficit before governments in the '90s suffered huge cuts in transfer 2001. They said: "We've got a structural deficit of $3.8 payments from the federal government, but this gov- billion" — that's the figure that they came up with — ernment has been fortunate. A lot of largesse has been "and we've got to do some serious cutting in order to raining down upon them.

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But it's not all luck. They did take some things into was the third-lowest in Canada. There again: double their own hands. One of those things they took into talk. The words did not match with reality. their own hands was increasing gambling by a massive To justify their cuts, they also said that government amount. That brought in a lot of money. I know that spending had increased far beyond our rate of eco- the members opposite have a problem with gambling. I nomic growth over the past decade and was simply not don't know if they're problem gamblers, but they have sustainable. Another one of the quotes from that time a problem with gambling. They can't really decide — not true again. Government spending relative to whether they really expanded gambling or not. Some GDP peaked in 1991 and declined all the way into 2002. members say: "No, we didn't expand gambling. We But never let the facts get in the way of a good wouldn't think of it. How could you suggest such an story, as they say, and the Liberals certainly didn't. idea?" But a couple of members have actually come Nevertheless, the government put the boots to the pub- clean and have admitted that this government actually lic service, including in the area of education. did expand gambling. B.C. is a very rich province. We can afford, despite The other thing is…. Let's not forget the burgeoning what the Liberals have said, to look after one another tuition fee increases that post-secondary students suf- much better than we do. We can afford to look after the fered under this government. That brought in a lot of homeless. We can afford to look after students much bucks as well. better than this government is willing to do. The deficit that they were suffering at the time was Now, back to the teachers' issues specifically. The also largely self-imposed by these tax cuts that they laws of bargaining rights have a number of ramifica- promised were going to pay for themselves — and not tions for teachers. I talked about them earlier today, or later but sooner — and they did not. The tax-take reve- yesterday, whenever it was. One of the things is that nue has not come back up to where it was until just teachers are not being consulted when government recently, just recent years. The first three years it was contemplates major changes to the school system. They way down. In fact, the minister at the time, in the first don't feel included. They aren't invited to the party. year, admitted that the $1.1 billion deficit was solely They're left out. They're ignored. the result of the tax break. He actually came clean at [0505] the time with that — one of the few times. [0500] A Mustel Group opinion poll in June of this year It was a prefabrication. They made it up, and they confirmed that 88 percent of the public agrees that it is thought nobody would notice. They thought: "We'll important for teachers to speak out on public education just pull the wool over the eyes of the people in this issues like funding cuts, larger class sizes and reduced province." It's been hurting public services ever since. It support for children with special needs. The public really has, and it has a lot to do with the situation we're thinks it's right and necessary for teachers to speak out in today and why we're talking about what we are talk- on these issues. And thankfully, they are, despite the ing about today. government's attempts to muzzle them. The government at the time had the fiscal review And 82 percent of 14,500 teachers surveyed at that panel, as it's called, and came up with this structural time disagreed with the statement that adequate spe- deficit determination. But they depended on some cial education assistant time is available to each student pretty hyperconservative assumptions at that time, who needs it. These are the folks that know, and if including a forecast allowance of $1.5 billion. As I said, they're saying it's so, you can be sure that it's so. We've it was a pretext upon which this government was able heard a lot from many speakers about how devastating to do what they really wanted to do in the first place, that has been for them and how hard it is for them to and that was to whack public services. They did it. carry on to do their jobs. What we have also seen in the course of that process In the same study 77 percent of teachers agreed that is a dramatic transfer in wealth to the haves from the there were more special needs students in their classes have-nots. Yes, every once in awhile the government than in the past. I mentioned this before. It's a reality throws out a few crumbs to poor people. But it's a mi- that they are having to deal with. And just under 87 nor trade-off for their buddies — a minor trade-off, percent of teachers also indicated that students in their because their friends in the corporate sector are laugh- classes had a wider range of needs than in the past. So ing all the way to the bank. They don't mind if the gov- there are more special needs and a wider range of ernment gives away a few crumbs to the poor people. needs — very significant to the delivery of educational Remember, too, that at that time the Liberals kept services, very significant. saying that B.C. had the most expensive social pro- At the same time, the number of special needs stu- grams in Canada. This was another pretext for what dents has increased, but resources have declined. Gov- they did to public services. They said that we had a ernment denies it. The reality is there. Financial sup- bloated public service at the time. Remember those port has decreased — decreased — over the past four words? I don't know if the members opposite want to years from real per-pupil funding of $6,700 in 2001- remember those words. I wouldn't if I were them, be- 2002 to $6,540 in 2004-2005. The recent $150 million cause it wasn't true. It wasn't true. B.C.'s public service increase still results in $108 per student less in funding was already the second-smallest in Canada on a per- than in 2001-2002. That's the reality. There is less capita basis. Government spending relative to GDP money to deal with an increasing problem.

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The government needs to come to its senses. They it's not real; it's a figment of somebody's imagination." really do. They have an opportunity to get back to the It's not unusual, unfortunately, to see right-wing gov- bargaining table, to actually recognize what's happen- ernments go after educators. This government is not ing and say: "We have a part to play in this. We can be alone in doing that. Many, many conservative govern- part of the solution rather than continuing to be part of ments have done that throughout the world. Maybe the problem." this is a kinder, gentler government. Maybe they have Not only has there been underfunding of special learned something over the past four and a half years. I needs, but following the removal of support provisions hope so. from the collective agreement in 2002, there was a loss It certainly hasn't appeared that way yet, particu- of almost 230 full-time-equivalent special ed teachers. I larly, but there's still time. There's still time for the gov- know some of these special education teachers. We ernment to come to their senses on this bill and to get need those special education teachers in our class- back to serious…. To begin. As the member mentioned rooms. They provide the kind of expertise that the av- earlier, there hasn't been any negotiation on the part of erage classroom teacher is not able to get. They have the government, so it's time to begin. It's time to begin, the extra education and the ability to deal with stu- really. dents that really need their help. So to lose 230 FTEs The government model on education is, indeed, the was not a good thing. corporate model. It's not a model of concern about the [0510] whole child. It's a production model. They seem to Then there's class size. Back to class size again. think in this model, unfortunately, that students are We've heard a lot about class size. The question re- like widgets and not people. Educators in this province mains, and I hear differing responses from the gov- aren't interested in turning out widgets in the educa- ernment, depending on their mood, I guess. But does tion system. They're interested in turning out whole class size matter, or doesn't it? That's the question. The people. You talk to teachers, and one after the other government, on the one hand, says, "Of course we're will tell you…. concerned about class size," but I have also heard them [0515] say: "There's no magic number." So it's a double message. "We're really concerned about class size, but hey, Deputy Speaker: Thank you, member. Your time there's no magic number." is…. My school trustees in district 42 believe there's no proof to show that class size affects learning outcomes, M. Sather: Thank you, hon. Chair. and I hear the same rhetoric from members opposite sometimes. It doesn't matter. It can't be proven — not C. Evans: This is kind of strange, eh? It would be from what I've read and heard. 5:15 in the morning. An hour ago I was sleeping on the Project Star, which is from the Corporation for Na- floor downstairs. Nobody's really supposed to be up tional and Community Service, has been reported in except paper-boys delivering the paper and people hundreds of research articles and presented widely at getting ready to go to work, and we're here in the Leg- international conferences. In the largest class study in islature debating a hoist motion. the world, they found that in every grade level stu- For the benefit of anybody who may just have dents in small classes outperformed — the members tuned in, switching channels for the hockey game, opposite are very interested in performance — stu- we're here debating a motion moved by — I almost dents in larger classes in every achievement test ad- said the person's name — an hon. member: ministered — the largest study ever. Hundreds of other [Be it resolved that the motion for second reading of the articles report similar results. bill intituled Teachers Collective Agreement Act, 2005, be A trustee said to me: "Well, intuitively, it kind of amended by striking out "now read a second time," and makes sense that if you get up to 35 or 40 in a class- adding "read a second time six months hence."] room, it might have an effect." Yeah. For the sake of Folks, what that means is that the government…. argument, if you're comparing a class of 24 and a class They're the people that work over there; you can't see of 26, there probably is no statistical difference. But them on TV right now, but they're there, because those are not the kinds of differences that we're so of- they're responsible. ten talking about. They're much more significant than [Applause.] that. That's them. I have to say that the naysayers on the other side The government has brought in a bill that says that about class size and the effect of class size throughout teachers don't get to bargain a collective agreement. the school system, not just the primary…. Yes, I know They just have to go to work, and they should just, you they put class size limits on primary but not the rest of know, forget the idea of bargaining, and six months the education system, the K-to-12. It does make a dif- from now they can start bargaining, and two years ference. It's not about averages. It's about the actual from now they could have a collective agreement. number of students that are in a given class. That's The people on this side…. That would be my what counts. friends, the opposition people. My friends…. Well, All this naysaying kind of reminds me of the they're my friends over there, too; they're just con- climate-change naysayers that say: "It's not happening; fused. Sometimes good people are confused. You

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 667 know, you've seen it in your family. One of the cousins This is how my subconscious works. Sometimes, goes haywire, and the rest of them…. Like, you've got when I'm chewing over an issue — sometimes a happy to help them. They're wonderful people; they're just one, sometimes a sad one — and I'm not really sure misguided. We're trying to help them come to their what I think, a song comes into my head. For example, senses. when I got elected on May 17 and got this great big So our member said: "This is a really ridiculous law, vote that had never happened to me before, I kept and you didn't mean to do it." There are 40,000 people thinking: “I'm so glad. I'm so glad.” out there watching television who don't really want Then we came in here and we did this Terasen de- this law to pass, so our team said: "Lift the law for six bate — this idea of selling our gas company to the months while the misguided cousins come to their United States, and the song that keeps going through senses, and then we'll come back and debate it." my head about that idea is: “This land is my land. This Then sometime yesterday the government decided land is your land.” that instead of having an emergency debate or trying to Now here we are with this teachers question. Any- deal with this hoist motion, we would sit here all night body who has a fancy stereo set or something, turn it long and debate this issue. For the benefit of people off, because I can't actually hold a tune, don't know who might not understand, this is not a singular event. anything about key, and it may break your fancy sys- This idea that the government is saying to teachers, tem. But I just need to tell you that the idea that the "You can't have a collective agreement. You go back to Minister of Finance had a billion-dollar surplus, took work, and be quiet," is not happening in isolation. In $143 million and gave it to corporations and then said fact, scant days ago those same misguided cousins to teachers, “You can't have a dime,” kind of reminds brought in a budget bill, and they said: "Whoopee. me of the last verse of The Ballad of Pretty Boy Floyd, Good times are here again. We have a billion-dollar written in 1939. surplus." They said: "We've governed well. We've done everything good." Interjection. You can clap now. This is about you guys. They said: "We've governed well. We did every- C. Evans: You were, weren't you? I think probably thing we said we'd do, and look at this: we are re- everybody was, because we all remember how the last warded with a billion-dollar surplus." verse goes. It's Woody Guthrie. This is for teachers: “Now, as through this world I rambled, I met lots of [0520] funny men. Some will rob you with a shotgun and I was sitting here. I thought: okay, here comes the some with a fountain pen.” good part. Teachers' bargaining is coming up in 72 That's what's going down here, isn't it? Real nice hours. They're going to fix it. Then the Minister of Fi- folks all dressed up, best looking we've ever been, best nance — this is stunning, folks; it's amazing — stood job we've ever had, the most beautiful workplace in up and said: “In spite of the fact that teachers' bargain- British Columbia, and we're robbing some people with ing is in 72 hours, and in spite of the fact that we won't a fountain pen. deal with class size, and people are hoping that we're When we're through passing this law, we're going going to put some money into this and fix it, we've got to send 40,000 people back to work with not a dime. a better idea. We're going to give $143 million to the We're not going to change anything about their work. corporations and nothing to the school boards.” It's all so polite. It's happening at 5:20 in the morning. People on my side all turn to each other and go: Nobody can see. And we're going to sign it. We're go- “Well, how's this going to work?” This is not 2002. Re- ing to rob these people to…. This is like Robin Hood in member 2002, when the government said that teachers reverse. We're going to steal from those peasants living had to go to work and legislated them back and there in the woods and give to the sheriff $143 million. stripped their agreement and took out librarians? The That's our idea of how to run education in British Co- excuse was: “We've got the biggest deficit in the history lumbia. of the world, and we can't be bargaining.” The teachers I think it's really…. sort of went: “Well, they don't have the money.” But a couple of days ago they came in here and they had a Interjection. billion dollars, and then, just standing on the brink of fixing the problem, they said: “Oh no, no, no. We're Deputy Speaker: Member. going to give this money to the corporations instead.” [0525] If you look at the two things together — not this evening's nutbar event in isolation, but if you look at it C. Evans: Oh, let them fly at it. It'll wake somebody as a continuum — it kind of reminds me of a song. This up. is like the part on late-night television where…. Hon. Chair, please let the misguided cousins say anything they want. It won't make any difference to Interjection. me. I want to speak to the people who live where I live. C. Evans: I was going to sing, and the lights went That would be the West Kootenays — Salmo, Nelson, out. You can't be that scared. Oh, and let there be light. Creston, Nakusp, New Denver, Kaslo. In 2002, when

668 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 the government was broke and they said to the teach- I have one school in my district which has 131 stu- ers, "No. We're going to change your contract and dents in it; 24 of the 131 students are designated by this whack out all this stuff that you folks had negotiated government, British Columbia rules, as special needs. for," there were 340 teachers working there. You'll re- There are ten more students in that school who require member 2002, hon. Chair. That was right after the elec- an individual program because they cannot learn in the tion in which I lost. Lots of those teachers voted for collective curriculum. That makes 34 out of 131. The those folks over there. They said: "Okay. Well, let's class composition in that school requires that there be have a different government. Let's have these guys people there to assist, to teach those students. over here." I asked Henning about his understanding of the This isn't a question of loyalty. I'm sure that the rule of law. Of course, one of the things that's happen- teachers thought that the people coming in with the ing here tonight is that the government is using the government would be…. And out of loyalty and power of law and that fountain pen to order people thanks for having gotten elected by a big number…. back to work, and it's important that we consider hard They then whacked…. No, that's not very nice. They about the meaning of the law. He told me that teachers saw to it that 34.9 of those teachers got sent home out believe in the law precisely, which is why, when the of 340. They reduced the teachers in the Kootenay Lake government made their profession essential, they re- district from 340 to 305. So, anybody at home in Salmo ferred that question not to the bar or a union meeting. or Nelson that's watching television, that is why your They referred it to the United Nations — to that body class sizes are a little bit larger; that is why your special at the United Nations that works on labour questions. education teachers went from 31 to 22. It's because the It is the United Nations, according to my friend, that people on the other side, back when they didn't have then said our essential service law doesn't fit their defi- any money, decided to cut your budget by 40 teachers. nition of "legal." I also represent the good people of Arrow Lakes. He told me to say that what is happening here this That's Edgewood, Fauquier, Burton, Nakusp, and it morning at 5:30 would be like if Henning used the law, goes down to New Denver and Silverton. Back when or if I used the…. Suppose I owed Henning $10,000 and the misguided folks across the way there, two swords' I was supposed to pay him next week. Then I came in length over there, were elected in 2001, there were 50.7 here and invented a law that said: "Sorry, Henning. I teachers in the Arrow Lakes. There are now 40.5. There do owe you $10,000, but I am not going to pay you, and were 1.6 teacher-librarians. That was, you know, mak- it will be two years before we talk about it." Henning ing sure kids could read. There's now 0.4. I know in asked me to consider whether or not that use of the law modern jargon there is such a thing as a 0.4 FTE, but really is an honourable profession. He asked me to there is no such thing as a 0.4 person. We all know that consider…. He actually asked me to ask you guys to no real person can live on 0.4. So there is not even one consider what he would be saying to his students if he single person making a living as a librarian in the Ar- said to them: "Oh, let's all obey a law which even the row Lakes. United Nations finds to be abhorrent." All of that pain was to lead up to this week, when He finished by telling me that both of his daughters there would be a billion dollars in the bank, and the had decided to follow his example and go into educa- Minister of Finance would come in and save the day, tion. One of them is now a substitute teacher, and the instead of coming in as happened scant hours — what, other is going through education. He said: "If I don't do 70 or 80 hours — ago and give the money that would something to save this moment for my profession, have solved that problem in the Arrow Lakes to the what am I passing on to my own children, who believe corporations. in this work?" That's a pretty tough dilemma for a par- I phoned teachers in my constituency to ask them ent — eh, folks opposite? how they felt about this. I'm going to rip through a I'm going to divide myself from you by more than couple of their thoughts. I phoned Henning von Krogh, distance. You're going to take a pen…. a brave man. Lives in New Denver; said he'd be pleased if his name was on the record. I asked him An Hon. Member: Through the Chair, member. what it was that he thought was happening in the Ar- Through the Chair. row Lakes right now. Henning said that he would like it if I said to you, hon. Chair, that there are people out C. Evans: Yeah, through the Chair to the folks over there who think — and I've got to read this, because it's there that I appreciate are here. They are going to take way more articulate than I've ever been: "It is time for a pen and with the pen make it against the law for teachers to stand together and to let them" — I pre- Henning to defend his kids' right to do this work and sume "them" means us — "know that we collectively the children who would then study under them. will not allow them to continue their reign of insult and I phoned John Chisamore over in Creston. John told ignorance and malice." me a little story about class size. John, like me, has a [0530] digit missing from some kind of industrial work, and In the Arrow Lakes class size is not as big a deal, he actually cares about safety in the shop. He says the often, as class composition. Class composition, of shops in Creston were built for 20 people. They now course, means who's in the class and what are their have 24 and 28 kids in the shop class. What does that skills and capacity to learn. mean? It means that before the teachers will start teach-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 669 ing shop, they write a letter to their boss, the principal, said. Those people…. He asked me to tell you, friends that says, "I think this work is unsafe," to be shared by opposite, that he's talked to teachers in his community the parents to cover the teacher's back while he goes who told him they've voted against every single strike into a shop where there are more students than there vote in their professional lives because they believe in are desks for them to work at. being in the classroom, and that they find that it is im- When I asked John about the question of illegality, moral, this time, to vote against the walkout because he talked about Gandhi and Nelson Mandela and they're trying to vote for the children that they're teach- about unjust laws. Then he cited Pierre Trudeau. He ing in grade four. said: "Corky, I'm a Canadian. When I was young, I You don't have to believe me. grew up with this great leader who talked about the just society, and that's where I want to live, and that's Interjection. the example I would like to set for the students in Cres- ton." C. Evans: Through the Chair to the hon. member, I [0535] like it that you're heckling, because it proves that I talked to Pat Deon in Nakusp. He told me that you're here, but I can see in your eyes that you do be- teaching, when he went through school and started, lieve me. It's a conundrum. It's kind of hard to sit there. used to be an honourable profession. He got up every I appreciate that you're there when you know you're morning, got dressed, felt proud of himself. Now he wrong. Tom is right, and you can feel it. gets up every morning and feels kind of like a second- Tom asked me to ask: why is it that you want to class citizen — like maybe he's doing something ruin the system? I said: "Tom, what makes you think wrong, like maybe we don't want him in that work. He it's ruined?" He said: "Well, I've got a friend. I grew up says that although what they do is about learning, un- with a friend. My friend lives in Victoria, and his chil- der the law that is being constructed with this fountain dren go to St. Michaels School in Victoria. I was look- pen here today, it's against the law for him to bargain ing at his kid's class picture." He said: "Corky, there are learning. How wacko is that? He asked me in a mer- only 19 other kids in the class besides his kid. There are cantile way, in a money way, to ask all the people here 20 kids. They look like they're learning." He said: "Why to consider the fact that a long time ago teachers went is it? Is this like health care? Is this like selling our riv- to the table asking for a lot of salary increases and ers? Is this like everything else? Have the kids in my benefits and then bargained it away in exchange for the public school class now become a different kind of per- right to talk about learning. son to these wealthier children in the private school?" There are people in this room…. I can see people To Tom, that's an abrogation of Canada, of what he that are old enough to remember those bargaining days thinks about what Canada is supposed to mean. when teachers gave up personal wealth for the right to [0540] talk about class composition and class size and librari- He asked me to remind you to ask him about the ans. They're asking if we're going to say, with our illegality question. He asked me to remind you that in fountain pen, that it's against the law for them to talk his mind, this strike is not illegal until a court says that about class composition and class size. Are we going to it is illegal. Then he thought for a while, and he said: pay them the money that they passed up in the 1980s to "You know what? The question of illegality is a diver- have that right? We just stripped it away from them sion. We are dealing here with a moral question in a and didn't pay them. I don't know. In some places that moment in history — will we have public education might be called theft, not the shotgun type but the where we care about class size and class makeup and fountain-pen type. the well-being of the students or not? — which actually makes the legal question kind of a red herring. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] He asked me to tell hon. members opposite that he talked to all the people who were going to go and vote. I talked to Tom Newell. Tom Newell lives in Nel- They knew all the questions of consequences and all son. He asked me to say to the hon. members opposite: the legal issues before they cast their ballot. He asked "You're wrong when you say that bargaining is bro- me to tell you this, hon. members. At the meetings that ken." In order for something to be broken, you have to they had in my constituency to decide whether or not try it and have it fall apart. He asked me to communi- they would go back to work, they had the vote, they cate that in his opinion, bargaining has never begun. A announced the outcome, and, he said, there was no relationship is broken. Bargaining is when two people party. Nobody went to the bar; nobody said: "Good." sit down in good faith and say: "Okay, let's work this There was sadness. People who voted — 90 percent out." In Tom's opinion, this has never happened, so to — not to go to work tomorrow did so with a feeling of say that bargaining is busted is kind of cheap — isn't sadness. This is not like what you see on TV, strikes it? Bargaining hasn't even begun yet. that some of us have been in where we're out there He asked me to communicate through you, hon. demanding and celebrating workers' rights. This is a Chair, how…. This fellow is working with his union, bunch of people, some of whom have never done it and he wants you to understand how surprised he is before in their life, doing something they don't feel by how strongly elementary school teachers feel about good about at a moment they don't like for the good of this particular labour dispute — grade four teachers, he somebody else.

670 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005

[Interruption.] Mr. Speaker: Your time is up, member.

C. Evans: What do you want me to do? C. Evans: I thank you for this opportunity, good sir.

Mr. Speaker: The mikes are still on. You might as Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, I think we'll take a well continue. short recess until such time as the power gets back on.

C. Evans: I'm not sure I can see the piece of paper. The House recessed from 5:46 a.m. to 6:01 a.m. I want to tell you a quick story. My son is in his mid-30s now. When he was about 13 or 14, there was a [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] strike in his high school, and it was wintertime. I didn't happen to be working at that time. We wake up in the R. Austin: I want to, first of all, begin by thanking morning, and Phil goes: “I don't have to go to school.” I the hon. member for Nelson-Creston for waking us all said: “What do you think we ought to do with the up this morning with a very invigorating speech there. day?” It's February, and it's cold, and he said: “Well, But unfortunately, I think some of his singing may maybe we should take some firewood down to the have done something to the electrical system here, and teachers.” So we took a 45-gallon drum and put it on so we've had a little recess there. the back of the truck. We put a bunch of firewood and I'd like to begin by saying that I'm delighted to some paper in there, and we drove it down to the high have the opportunity to speak to this amendment. I school. We lit a fire on the 45-gallon drum, and then think it is very important, in spite of the fact that it is the teachers gathered around. now six o'clock in the morning, that we are here to dis- Now you have a 14-year-old kid standing with the cuss education — I think, after health care, certainly the 30- and 40- and 50-year-old people who were, the very most important issue. It's a big enough topic that we day before, his teachers, and they are peers. They're could talk here for hours and hours. I'm certainly ener- talking about working conditions and rights and nego- gized by it and feel that it's my duty, considering what tiation and the relationship between teachers and stu- the teachers have gone through in school district 82 dents, and teachers and school boards, and school over the last four years, not to mention the children. boards and the…. Philip is engaged now in the first I'd like to begin by reading out a letter. Earlier on real conversation he's ever had in his life with those today we had a number of students who came here to people who have had power over him for ten years, support their teacher who was standing on the steps of about: how does their life work? Hon. Speaker, I'm his the Legislature. We got to meet some of those students. dad. I would say it might have been the most educa- In fact, some of them got to sit up here in the gallery in tional moment in my son's life, that day with the 45- the early hours of the morning. I'm not sure whether it gallon drum, standing with his own teachers. was last night or this morning. I'd like to begin by read- When we left Mount Sentinel high school that day, ing a letter from one of these students. I was driving home, and Phil was sitting next to me. His name is Kyle Nelms. I'm going to read the letter Then he turns, and he says: "Well, Pop, there's a thing I verbatim, in spite of the fact that he makes one very don't get about what's going on here. How can the disparaging comment about one teacher, who hope- government order the teachers back to work?" More fully he will never see again. than that, he said: "How could any human being order Honestly now, teachers are the ones shaping the youth of another human being to work? I thought that we got the future. Without respect from the government, how rid of slavery and that whether or not I get up in the can we expect them to shape capable citizens for Cana- dian society? These talented individuals sacrifice not only morning and go to work is my right of choice every money to get into the profession but countless hours to day. Go to work, have money; stay in bed, be poor. extracurricular activities to make school a place where How can somebody tell me, by law, I have to go to people want to be. work?" Rewarding these people, living on low funds to be- I didn't know the answer. If it was legal in this chair gin with, with large classes and insufficient textbooks, for me to ask you to answer Philip's question, if I could not enough desks and amounts of students that could not ask the hon. members with the fountain pen on the even be controlled with cages, special teachers like — other side who have given away $143 million to the and he says in quotation marks: corporate bosses and are forcing the…. If I could ask — but not limited to Mark Neufeld, change the way that students see themselves. them how it is that one human being could order an- As a grade nine student coming from a 57-percent other human being to go to work if there is no slavery, mark from an incompetent English grade eight teacher, I I'd ask them. resented the class and, as an overall opinion, I figured [0545] that post-secondary education was out of the question. I get it that I'm not allowed to and that a question Mark — that you ask, literally in the dark, at quarter to six in and he's referring to Mark Neufeld: the morning could be called rhetorical. But 40,000 — changed not only my 57-percent grade to a 90 percent, teachers are thinking about it, and in two hours a cou- he also made me love English and someone to look for- ple of hundred thousand students are going to be ward to. I now look forward to English classes and hope that in four years time, I'll be studying it at university. thinking about it.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 671

As someone who is looking to teaching as a future our area due to economic conditions. Therefore, every career, I am deeply disappointed at the respect shown by time a child left our district, about $8,000 went with the government to those who shape our youth. Does Brit- each of them, which has resulted, in the last three ish Columbia want legions of citizens who have never years, in approximately $1.8 million coming out of our been inspired by a special individual like this? school system simply as a result of that loss in families. [0605] What was left for our school district and our trus- Some teachers have been reduced to tears on multi- tees? They had to make a very difficult choice. It was ple occasions due to the fact that without an acceptable teacher-student ratio in the classroom, it's not conducive simply choosing to close more schools — and we al- to teaching the material. Many students do not under- ready had schools that had been closed — or to go to a stand the topics covered. In my textiles course — which, four-day school week. I ask you, Mr. Speaker: do we by the way, I was forced to take, as there were no more really think that in British Columbia in 2005 we should fine-arts class spaces available that block — we use a have children only attending class four days a week? number system, similar to a meat counter, to get help. Is Surely to goodness we can afford, in this province, one this how we should be educated? of the wealthiest places on earth, to have all of our Missing time in my AP history class is difficult, be- children be in school five days a week. cause we do not have any textbooks — none. How can teachers deal with their own personal lives and teach a Prior to this government coming in, the people of class that doesn't even have a textbook? Only a special Skeena rightly believed that they had and participated teacher can do this and should be respected as such. Spe- in one of the best education systems of many rural or cial teachers motivate students to achieve their best and small-town communities. We've seen, in the last four become capable citizens for B.C. What can we expect to years, that system stripped down to the bare bones. have happen if we remove those vital cogs from the People are certainly not happy about it. process of building citizens? Schools, as I mentioned, have not only been closed Kyle Nems due to lower enrolment, but the ability of administra- I think it's very important to recognize that there tors to cram more kids into classes has permitted were close to 50 students out there until about 2:30 this boards to close schools and lay off workers. Far more morning supporting this student. I think it's also impor- teachers have been laid off than the enrolment figures tant to mention that here we are with 17-year-olds who warrant. This is one of the great myths that needs to be are finally getting involved in the political process. They explored. are studying socials during the day. They're studying [0610] history. But this was the most excellent socials class for I was listening earlier today to the member for them, because they got a chance to come and speak for Peace River South, who pointed out, correctly, that the themselves. actual dollar figure per student has indeed gone up Now, why are we here? Largely, I think we are here under the Liberal government. I don't quibble with because of inaction — inaction on the part of the Pre- that. What I do quibble with, though, is the non-full mier of this province. The Minister of Labour has told information. It doesn't explain that while that figure us in this House that this problem has existed for many has gone up, so many costs were downloaded onto the years. I think he quoted ten to 12 years at least. He has school system that the increase in that figure per stu- been in cabinet for over four years. Only after antago- dent could not possibly make up for the losses that the nizing this single group that we need to work with school district had to overcome. That is the reason why does he now come up with this instant fix of bludgeon- we're sitting here having this debate. In spite of the ing people with legislation. number of dollars going up per student, we have still For us on this side, I think we are largely observers seen the actual classroom conditions go down because in this struggle, because after all, we are not the gov- they could not overcome that downloading. ernment, and we are not the teachers. We are here sup- I would like to speak for a second here, looking at porting them, as we want to have better learning condi- the data that has come from the Ministry of Education tions for our children. website. If you look on a provincial average for the This struggle is portrayed as a battle between the whole province, between 2001 and 2004-2005 there big BCTF and the Liberal government, but really, for were 20,926 fewer students. That's a percentage change the people of my riding, in Skeena, it is a battle be- of 3.5. In that same time, the number of teachers that tween the government and the ordinary people who have been cut was 2,609, a 7.8-percent decline. These want their kids simply to have a better education. Let figures, which come from the government, suggest that me tell you, Mr. Speaker, we know what it's like in all of this, what we're talking about, is in fact the reality school district 82 to have suffered. We are one of the on the ground. few areas in this province that has had to go to a four- That has certainly been the case in Skeena. I see day school week and whose children have been made here that aboriginal education has gone down by 19 to feel like second-class citizens. We know who to percent in spite of the fact that in my riding we proba- blame, and it is certainly not the teachers. bly have 35 percent aboriginal children. It is not the I want to speak for a second to this four-day school whole story to simply say that education has gone up. I week. When this came about, our school district — our understand that $150 million was put in, as they keep board, our trustees — had to make a very, very diffi- on reminding us on the other side, but that is only half cult choice. We've had a large number of families leave of what was taken out when the second and third year

672 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 of the final agreement to increase teacher salaries a I'm not sure when — I've spent a lot of time with couple of years ago was not funded. Giving back half is teachers in the last few years. I worked as an SSA in not replacing the whole. The government constantly school district 82, and obviously I spent time in count- speaks of education have a larger budget than under less staff rooms, talking to them when we were on the NDP, but as I mentioned, that is not the whole breaks. Certainly, pay increases were not the primary story. thing that they brought up in conversations with me I want to speak for a second about rural areas such day in and day out. The things I heard them complain as mine. When I mentioned earlier that we have lost about were mostly around working conditions or, if 930 kids, we have to recognize that there are certain you want to put it another way, learning conditions. fixed costs in any system that don't go away, no matter We would all like a pay raise. I can't think of any how many kids are in the system. The lighting still has group in society which, when it comes time for bar- to be paid. The heating still has to be paid. The cost of gaining, would not want a pay raise — including the using buses to bring children to schools still has to be people here, I'm sure. But that was not the primary paid. All of these are fixed overheads. When you have focus of their conversations. It was always how they a school district such as ours, when you lose 983 kids could get through the day. It was always how they — roughly $1.8 million a year — that means that the could get to each and every one of these kids when children who are left and the dollars that are left have there were more and more identified kids in each class to be spread thinner, and that is what's caused so many and the teacher felt they could not give the kind of in- problems in rural school districts. dividualized attention that each of these children I think it is essential that we recognize and realize needed. That made them feel terrible. Here they are, this when we look at the funding formula throughout professional people trying to do the best that they can the province. We need to recognize that in certain areas do, but they felt the system itself was against them. such as mine, we have to have some change in the They felt that the government was not listening, was funding formula that recognizes that when you have a not caring. massive or large outflow of families in a particular re- So this is where we're at now, four years hence: gion, there should be some compensation to school with them wanting to get some action, with them districts so they don't have to work, struggle and go wanting to have the rights that were taken away from through the kind of crises that school district 82 has them restored in terms of classroom conditions. Here gone through in the last four years. we are now at the precipice, potentially, of a strike. We have indeed seen massive cuts to programs everywhere. Of course, we have had cuts to libraries. Really, what this debate is mostly about, I believe, We've had cuts to teacher-librarians. We've had cuts in is working conditions or learning conditions in the support staff, school closures, larger class sizes and — classroom. We have to recognize that when the gov- as I mentioned, the worst thing of all, finally — a four- ernment cuts teachers by 7.8 percent, in spite of the fact day school week. More money can still mean cuts — that the population only went down 3.5 percent…. I and that is what we are talking about here — in spite of ask you: how many millions of dollars has the gov- — the actual dollars going up. The Liberals know this, ernment saved by doing that how many millions of and they hope to spin this, but people know, and they dollars? At a time now, as it's been pointed out, when realize why so many teachers are upset. times are good and this government now has a surplus — [0615] I believe $1.3 billion, but I'm sure it will probably go I think it's an interesting thing. I was speaking to up…. At this time, having sacrificed all of these jobs lots of people back home during the course of this. and having increased all of these class sizes, as the hon. Usually, when there is a potential for strike action on member for Nelson-Creston mentioned half an hour the part of teachers, it doesn't go down very well with ago, surely it is time to address these issues in the the general public. They may seem sympathetic, on the classroom. one hand, but really, when they have to overcome the Larger class sizes inevitably mean less time with difficulties of figuring out where their children are go- our kids. That's what we're all here for. We're all talking to go, it soon turns them off. Usually there is a pub- ing about how we can improve education for our chil- lic anger against teachers. But in this case, I feel — and dren. Surely giving less time to each child in the class is I think I'm right in saying — that the public, certainly not the way we want to reach the golden goal, the first the public up north, is very much onside with the goal of this Liberal government. It costs lots of dollars teachers and understands that they're not just fighting to provide quality education, and we have to decide to try and get a pay raise; they are in fact fighting to try whether this is worth paying for. and get a better quality of teaching in the classroom. I realize it's expensive. I think I'm right in saying I think that this time, should they decide to go out that 70 cents of every dollar now goes to health care — or if they go out later today, which apparently is and education, and we've seen what's happened to the what they are going to do — there is going to be huge health care budgets in the last number of years. support within the community, which, as I say, is un- They've grown exponentially. But I can't help but feel usual. that while those dollars have been going to health Is this just about pay increases? I don't think so. As care…. Health budgets have grown exponentially, but I I mentioned yesterday — either evening or morning; cannot help but feel that education has suffered, be-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 673 cause it's now not having the same focus that has gone late those people — okay? They have done a great job, to health care. but that still begs the question: is this the job they [0620] should have been doing? In school district 82 there are now no takers for the It also means that we need to have sufficient staff, job of trustee. I believe five people are not running, and specific teachers, to take care of children with special they're having to find people who'd actually want to needs. As we've seen, the number of kids with special take this position. You have to ask yourself: why is needs has risen in the last number of years — I think, that? It used to be, in times past, that people liked the partly because we are now better at identifying them. idea of trying to have some input locally into how For every child who has a special need, we need to school districts were run. There used to be a time when have teachers who have got greater skills, who have we had competitions, with people actually racing in gone and studied further education to take care of elections to try and get to become school trustees. those special needs. That's not the case any more, and I'll tell you why. In a During my time as an SSA in school district 82 I small town, everybody knows who you are. When you saw SSAs who were being moved every half an hour, go shopping, you meet your school trustee, just as you like plugging holes in a ship, because they had been cut meet your MLA. so badly that there weren't enough of us to go around The job of school trustee has become so onerous, so to help those children who have special needs. It's not difficult, that nobody wants to take this job on. That's possible for one teacher in a room to maintain the kind not good for democracy. That's not good for the notion of learning environment necessary for teaching to go that we want to have a system that's not centralized on while taking care of so many children with special and not run from Victoria. It's not good for the idea needs. that people in local areas should make decisions about [0625] how their school system is run. If people don't want to As I mentioned earlier, we have a society where we do this job, inevitably these tasks are going to be pulled have people with severe disabilities in our schools and back to Victoria or people are going to be appointed — they require very special attention. Often they require people who either have no interest in education or who one SSA or one support person directly with them all don't see it as a fit thing worth doing. day. What's been happening in school district 82 is that What do I mean by adequate funding? I mean that some of those people even have been taken and spread we need to have the kind of funding that deals with around the classroom or moved from one classroom to class sizes. I mean we need to have the kind of ade- another. Teachers are left there wondering what is go- quate funding that deals with books and other re- ing on — one adult in a room sometimes, 30-plus kids, sources. I mean, Mr. Speaker, the adequate funds for seven or eight identified children. This is not a job that music programs. Let me just mention here that in many teachers want to endure. school district 82 our music programs for elementary were cancelled. It took a private citizen group to set up What does that do? It burns teachers out time and a private society to raise dollars to actually pay for our time again. There are many teachers now who, by the music teachers and to continue our music program. Is time Christmas rolls around, are emotionally, physi- — that the way that we want to run public education in cally exhausted absolutely exhausted. When they British Columbia, where, when a program is cut, we all come back after the Christmas break, they still have the run around and start raising funds for it? That is not long period of the year to go, but they're already worn public education. out by Christmas. That's a direct result of these work- If we're going to start raising funds in order to have ing conditions. music programs, then we're going to have to go and I mean also that sufficient resources should take start raising funds for school books, and maybe if we care of our weather. Are our classrooms warm? In want to raise the ratio of teachers in each classroom school district 82 we sometimes have very strong win- and lower our class-size average, we should all go ters, particularly in Kitimat, but now, we have systems around and start having bottle drives outside the local where the heat goes on and off, controlled electroni- Safeway so that we can raise extra funds to do that. Is cally to save money. When teachers come in on their that what public education is now becoming in British own time to do prep, the heat isn't even on in the build- Columbia? I think not. ing. They're wearing thick sweaters. Terrace is a special place. Music has always been Some of them, when they come into work on Fri- very important. We have high school bands that win days — because remember, Mr. Speaker, we have no competitions across Canada. That was the motivation school on Fridays, so teachers usually come into school for this group to go out there and raise the money. and do lots of prep on Fridays because there are no They realized that if you don't have music programs in students there — they wear their coats all day long. schools, you have no feeders to go into and provide the Friday, in school district 82, is part of our weekend, music programs in the high schools, and then you have and on the weekend the heat gets turned off com- no musical talent that can come in and play in concert pletely or down to a level where it doesn't freeze pipes. bands. There would therefore be no music in our com- You'll sometimes come into a school and wonder munity if individual citizens did not take it upon them- why all these teachers are walking around in coats selves to go and raise these funds. I want to congratu- while they spend the day doing their prep, but that is

674 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 the case. We don't have the money to heat the schools into the House earlier this evening with Kyle. They also on Fridays to even give them that level of comfort. came here to support their teacher. Their names are I mean we need a physical plant that supports each Valerie Jones and Kelsey Oting. The letter goes like kid. "Physical plant" means the building itself. It means this: having a desk for every single child, which isn't always It isn't very often that students get to stand up and talk the case. It means having a science station in a science about what we think is right. What is even more is that classroom or shop class so that children aren't watch- we are actually being listened to. There are multiple rea- ing other children do science experiments because sons we are here today. To start, class sizes have steadily grown over the past few years. High school students are there are only 24 science stations in the classroom but beginning to be treated like college students, with large there are now 32 kids in the class. class sizes. The difference is that we don't pay thousands They don't have their own beaker. They don't have of dollars to be there. So many students do not take it se- their own whatever-it-is that's necessary to do that riously, making it difficult for the teacher to keep a science experiment. They actually have to share or take steady volume. turns, to watch one of their friends or their friends' group doing a science experiment. Then maybe, if Mr. Speaker: Thank you, member. they're lucky, they can borrow it from their friend and then do it later. These schools were designed to have [S. Hawkins in the chair.] shop and science for 24 kids. That's what the physical plant was designed for. That's the amount of money we J. Brar: Well, it's 6:33 a.m., and I once again rise to put into capital projects to create these schools, but support the hoist motion introduced by my fellow now we are jamming more kids in. member from Vancouver–Mount Pleasant. The other point I want to make is that there are Before I say anything further, I would like to share certain subjects, such as shop, where having more stu- a few things which I experienced last night. You know, dents in a class creates a safety problem. Are there many of us didn't sleep last night. I went to my room enough safety goggles to go around? Is it possible for and had a nap, and I had a little dream. The dream was one shop teacher to maintain safety standards in a that my daughter called me. She said to me: "I heard classroom when they're doing welding, for example, there would be no school tomorrow morning." She when he has to watch 32 kids? Is it physically possible further said: "There's somebody in Victoria doing for him or her? I beg the question here. At some point, something wrong. Can you talk to them?" I said to her: we're going to have an accident, because we are put- "You know, you're right. The schools may not open ting too many children into classrooms that are not fit tomorrow, and there's somebody in Victoria who for them. doesn't get it." These things, all the things I have just listed, should The teachers have been talking to these people, be available to every child in British Columbia, because these members, for the last 15 months, and we have as our government constantly reminds us, this is the been talking to the members on the other side for the best place to live on earth. Unfortunately, this is not the last I don't know how many hours on a regular basis. case in the riding of Skeena. It's a beautiful place — I We are trying, but we haven't seen any positive re- grant you that — but it is not the best place to live in sponse at this point in time. British Columbia. It's certainly not the best place to live [0635] on earth. The second thing I want to say is that I'm pleased How do I know that? Well, I spent the first ten that the Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General years of my life living in Africa. Those are my first ex- is here. I read a few letters during the last couple of periences going to school — in Africa. I remember as a months about how our attack program is pretty good, kid, of course, in Africa — well, we didn't have a lot of and we are prepared for any eventuality and all that things in Africa. We certainly didn't all have class- kind of stuff. In this building I saw…. Last night there rooms with our own desks. We certainly didn't all have were no blankets, no supplies, no sleeping bags, and textbooks, not in Africa. MLAs are struggling. Maybe it's a good thought for the [0630] minister to think about. But why am I comparing British Columbia with my The third thing I want to say is that the member on experiences as a child in Africa? That is a developing the other side maybe thought that this is a new team nation. This is one of the wealthiest nations in the and probably this is a good time to go to this vote. Let world. Yet we actually have situations in this province, me tell you that I am proud of these 33 members, and in my riding, where kids don't have their own desks I've seen them in excellent shape and excellent spirits and don't have their own books. last night. We will continue speaking for the people of This is not the direction that we want to be going British Columbia, speaking for the parents of British in. This is the opposite direction. These are the kinds of Columbia and speaking for the teachers of British Co- cuts that have happened in the last few years. I can say lumbia. We will continue talking about that unless you that we in the north have a long way to reach the Lib- stop us from doing that. erals' first great goal. Coming back to the motion, the motion is very I'd like to read another letter. This is also from a simple, and it does provide a meaningful direction to group of students, two students who actually came the current crisis, which this government has created.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 675

The motion is to postpone the second reading of Bill 12 ing conditions of the teachers, that you cannot talk for six months and then start working right away on about any wage for teachers. But, tell me, what is the finding the solution to this crisis. I fully support the best way to meet this goal?" motion. It's very simple. It makes sense. It is creative. It This person says: "Your honour, you cannot sepa- does open an avenue for finding a solution. Let's put rate those four things — the class size, class composi- the motion on the side — maybe put a nice blanket on tion, working conditions and the wage of teachers — that for six months. If needed, the government could from the excellent goal which you have, in order to bring it back. We'll start working on finding a solution achieve it." just right now, which is 6:35 a.m., so that our kids, our He says: "No, we will look after those things." And students, don't suffer from this crisis, which was cre- this person says: "Your honour, if you continue doing ated by this government. that, one thing will happen. Either you won't be able to This bill is about our teachers and about our chil- achieve your goal or you will have to change your po- dren. The teachers teach our children. They shape the sition on the class size, class composition and the work- future of our nation. They teach them the power of ing conditions and wage increase." Well, this person negotiations. They teach them conflict resolution. This left, but kings usually have selective listening because Premier and this government are telling the teachers they are the kings, and they say what they think is best that they don't have the right to negotiate class size. for them, not for the public. Many of my fellow members have spoken a lot on that, This is not the first time this Premier is doing some- as to why class size is important, to make sure the thing like this. During the last four years this govern- learning process and the class size is good for the stu- ment has deliberately, intentionally, knowingly pur- dents. sued actions that provoked a conflict with teachers. Let This government is telling them that you don't have me tell you some examples. The duly negotiated con- the right to negotiate class size. This government is tract of teachers was torn by this Premier in 2002. A telling the teachers that you don't have the right to ne- contract is a contract, whether it's for corporations or gotiate class composition. This government is telling for working people. But this Premier did that. He took the teachers that you don't have the right to negotiate over the control of the College of Teachers from the working conditions, and this government is telling the teachers, as well. There are many colleges where it was teachers that you don't have the right to negotiate wage the teachers, the College of Teachers, which was under increases. But they're telling us: let's have negotiations. attack. Negotiations on what? [0645] From a commonsense point of view, people can This Premier overruled a B.C. Supreme Court deci- understand that this is not a process set for negotiation sion on classroom composition. This Premier used and set for finding a solution. This is a trap. This is a teachers as political pawns in the 2005 elections. This public policy. This is a political game being played Premier refused to meet with the teachers when he had with the students of this province, with the parents and a chance to make progress. So this is not an isolated bill the teachers of this province. we are facing or debating in this House. We see a pat- [0640] tern for almost the last five years: one set of actions for Yesterday I told a lot of stories, and one of the sto- working people, and another set of actions for corpora- ries was about a king. I think, for the benefit of the tions in this province. And the history goes on and on members who may not have been here yesterday, I and on. would like to repeat that story. This story is about a Who is responsible for this? If you look at the his- king who has a goal to make his state the most literate tory, it makes it very clear that the crisis is an inven- state on the Earth, and the king asked our team of ad- tion, a creation, of this government to win back the visers to find somebody to set a public policy to reach trust of people of British Columbia for the mistakes that goal. His team of advisers went out and tried to they have made for the last four years. find that person with that wisdom, experience and That's why I oppose Bill 12, and I support the hoist intellect to set up a public policy. motion because the real motivation behind Bill 12 is Finally, they found somebody with lots and lots playing politics — playing politics with the students, and lots of teaching experience, and they brought that their parents — to win back the trust this government person to the House. The king is sitting on his throne has lost in the last four years. — a beautiful throne like you're sitting on, Madam I oppose this bill not just because I am a member of Speaker — and this person comes in front of the king. the opposition. I oppose this bill because I truly believe The king asks this person — the intellectual, the maker that this bill only serves the Liberal Party of this prov- of public policy with tons of experience in education: ince, not the people of the province. This bill only "So, tell us. Our goal is to make this state the most liter- serves the interests of the Premier of this province, not ate state on the Earth. What can you tell us to make the parents and students of this province. sure we can do it?" I have reasons for that. The first reason is that I This person just barely starts responding, and the heard a lot from the members on the other side that the king says: "Stop it. I want to tell you that you cannot budget is about choices — about priorities. Yes, that's talk about the class size, that you cannot talk about the right, but it depends. What are your priorities? Do your class composition, that you cannot talk about the work- priorities reflect the needs of the people of the province

676 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 or the needs of the corporations of the province? If you give you some examples. That's what we have been look at the history, the history makes it very clear. The trying to do for the last almost two or three days to biggest tax cut to corporations in 2001: $2 billion on the make our point. very first day, without any analysis. And $1 billion out Now, one of the teachers in my riding is saying that of that went to a very small, tiny percentage of very there are 32 students. In fact, I have gone to school in rich people of this province. The remaining $1 billion, India, and I've gone to university in Canada, but I have which is 50 percent, went to over 95 percent of the av- never seen a class of 32. I've never seen that. I have erage families of British Columbia. seen more than 32 people in the cinema house, but Then, in this budget once again, we saw another that's not a classroom; that's a different thing. corporate tax cut to their friends. And on this side Here is one about class size: "I am unhappy with they're talking about the negotiation system being bro- the overwhelming class size. It is frustrating, and the ken. What are the negotiation systems for the corpora- numbers have changed my job from an educator to an tions? There are none. There was no system, no re- enforcer. I think this is a wonderful profession, but it is quest, but the government still decided to give them frustrating when I don't feel respected by the govern- the tax cut. That's all about priorities that are wrong. ment policy." This is a teacher of secondary school who If you look at the other side, what we saw were cuts has more than five years' experience. to special education teachers by 17.5 percent, teacher- Let me give you another example from a primary librarians by 23.49 percent and ESL teachers by 20 per- school teacher: "Grade one students need significant cent. So big tax cuts to corporations but cuts to students support in learning the French language. Twenty-four and schools. That's what we have seen this government students is far too many." This is another example of doing for the last four years. the size. My second reason for opposing this bill is that this In other life, from a commonsense point of view, bill is against the fundamental values of this country, of we have all dealt with very young kids. Think about if this society: values of respecting and appreciating and we have just three five-year-old kids and we have to valuing the work of nation-builders, teachers. You talk monitor them for two or three hours. We get frustrated. about the teachers. I hope all of us have, from time to We are talking here about 24 students, and the teacher time, gone to school to drop off our kids, and every- has to deal with them not for two hours but for much body wants the best teacher for their son or daughter. longer than that, almost a day, and also teach them We tell the stories. We tell them how nice they are, how something meaningful. And this government is saying: effective they are, but we don't want to talk to them "Oh, you don't need to discuss the class size. We will because we are government. handle it." [0650] Let me give you another example: "The classes are The third reason I have is that there are no pressing, too big for ESL learning needs in school. Many re- valid, outstanding reasons for Bill 12. There is nothing sources and texts available in the school are not suit- to convince me that this Bill 12 is leading us — this able for ESL students, particularly at the intermediate government or me, as the elected member of the Legis- level" — this is, again, another teacher who has 25 lative Assembly for Surrey–Panorama Ridge — in the years' experience. right direction. If that would have been the case, then [0655] the government…. You don't need to spend taxpayers' The other letter I have here is from a teacher who money on big ads convincing the people of British Co- says: "I have had several classes with the maximum of lumbia that this is the right decision. The people of 32 students. Please don't let class sizes get any larger. British Columbia understand what you are doing. You There are just enough desks to seat students. Moving don't need to convince them whether this is the right around the classroom is difficult, and it is just way too thing or the wrong thing. They understand good and crowded." bad. That's the class size. The thing which confuses me is What the government is spending, I don't know. that the government is saying the teachers can't talk The Minister of Finance — whether she knows it or not, about the class size. Who can talk about the class size if I don't know — she's not telling us anything. You are teachers cannot talk about the class size? Who under- spending I don't know how much, probably millions of stands about the class size better than teachers? I don't dollars, on those ads to convince…. understand that. Another reason why I'm not supporting Bill 12 is Deputy Speaker: Through the Chair, member. because it missed the opportunity to address the issue of class composition, which is a very significant issue. J. Brar: Sorry, Madam Speaker. Through the Again I will read some letters I got, as many of my fel- Speaker to the Minister of Finance. low members have already explained about it. Let me You don't need to spend this money — public give you some examples of how pressing and impor- money — on advertisement if you're doing something tant an issue that one is. Here's one from an intermedi- right. That's the problem with this government. ate-level teacher who has the experience of more than My fourth reason for this one is that this govern- 15 years. "My class composition workload is over- ment missed the opportunity to deal with a very im- whelming. I have two special needs students without portant issue in schools, and that's class size. Let me enough support; one severe behaviour student; and six

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 677 students with severe learning disabilities, including This Bill 12, this legislation, increases the level of two who cannot read or write. I cannot meet everyone's confrontation with teachers and does nothing to im- needs." That's one coming straight from a teacher. prove learning in the classroom. It seems to me that for Here is another one. "My students and I have all four years this government has deliberately pursued noticed that our classes are all larger since class size actions that provoked a conflict with teachers. They and composition language was removed from our con- tore up a contract in 2002, they stripped teachers of tract." This is from a teacher who has 20 years experi- their self-governing body in 2003, they overruled a B.C. ence. This is a classic example of the class composition. Supreme Court decision on classroom composition in I hope that the members will listen to it. 2004, they used teachers as political pawns in the 2005 "I have large numbers of ESL students, 14 of them, election, and they've now refused to meet with teachers as well as many with behaviour problems, six of them, when they had a chance to make some real progress. and special needs–learning disabled students, two of They seem to have chosen conflict and confronta- them, and I have a split-grade class with academic tion instead of working with teachers to find solutions abilities ranging from kindergarten level to grade three. to this problem, and parents and teachers are paying It is very difficult and frustrating." That's the other one. the price. This government has consistently viewed The list goes on and on and on, but the government is education as a political game instead of viewing teach- not listening. ers, parents and students as equal partners in educa- I also oppose this bill and support the hoist motion tion. because I believe the motivation behind this bill is con- I believe that the most recent polls done by Global flict — confrontations rather than finding solutions. It's television yesterday will show that my colleagues and I a paradigm problem. It's a thinking problem. I also are not alone in thinking this. The province is not even oppose this bill because parents of this province expect split down the middle on this issue. Most of the ques- the government to work with teachers, not against tions asked — and I'm not going to go through every them, to improve education for their children. question, because I don't have that much time — were [0700] over 50 percent in favour of the view of this side of the Let me talk a bit about Surrey. I have heard from House and against the government on the other side. members over the past four years, in particular over There were only a couple of questions where it was the last year, during the election that the…. One of the slightly the other way. Basically, the population is split rationales I hear from the other side is that the schools down the middle and supporting teachers in their have been closed because enrolment is going down. viewpoints. But in Surrey we receive 1,000 new people walking into the city every month. Class size in Surrey has been Interjections. going up like anything, but we also got cuts to special [0705] needs teachers, librarians and ESL teachers. What is the rationale there? We don't have enrolment going down. D. Thorne: I hear members on the other side of the Those are the challenges we face when we talk to the House challenging me. I assume there's a newspaper government. over there with new poll numbers, which I'm sure we'll hear about just as soon as we can from the other side of I oppose this bill because this bill is a desperate the House. I'm only talking about yesterday. I have political effort to win back the trust of parents and stu- been here in the House and have not had the privilege dents by showing that now, suddenly, we care about of seeing today's newspaper. you. Again, because during the last four years the gov- I think that bargaining rights and free collective ernment has taken actions which have, of course, dam- bargaining are being trampled on right now in this aged their image among parents and students. province. I would just like to say a few words that I Let me give you some examples. This government have here around how teachers came to have bargain- has closed 113 schools since they took over. ing rights in British Columbia. In the beginning there were few rights and many Deputy Speaker: Member, note the time responsibilities. The Public School Act, 1872, organized teachers into teacher institutes which were dominated J. Brar: It's over? by government officials. Rings a little too close to home for what's happening today to suit me. In a far-flung Deputy Speaker: Yes. province of Canada such as British Columbia, collective rights were not recognized in those days, and D. Thorne: My esteemed colleague there said, "it's while labour organization was present in a few mining over?" like the firing squad was leaving. I don't expect towns, unions were usually seen as a conspiracy to get a lot of laughs here this morning, so if I try and it against trade. falls flat, I'll live with it. B.C. teachers had common-law contracts. They I rise to speak in favour of the motion because I worked under what we would see as intolerable condi- believe that it's a sensible thing to do. It's logical. It will tions, and they came and went at the behest of local give everybody some breathing space and give every- school authorities. What separates us from our prede- body time to think about what they're doing. cessors is the evolution of democracy and the collective

678 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 efforts of those teachers who organized themselves into D. Thorne: Madam Speaker, I'm very happy this the B.C. Teachers Federation to achieve full collective morning that I have such a loud voice, because it looks bargaining rights. like I'm going to need it. Full collective bargaining rights for teachers were ultimately achieved in the 1987 teacher bargaining leg- Hon. K. Falcon: You can't handle good news, can islation. During the negotiations that followed, teachers you? negotiated a full set of terms, including class size, duty- free lunches, fair personnel practice, professional de- Deputy Speaker: Order. velopment rights and a healthy salary increase. In the many negotiations that followed, hundreds of negotia- D. Thorne: Class size limits are good for everyone. tions were concluded without reference to strikes or lockouts. Where necessary, teachers did undertake job Interjections. action in the face of school boards acting unfairly in the negotiating process. Deputy Speaker: Order, members. Order. Our history presents a clear lesson, one that we [0710] should pay attention to today, right now, in British Columbia on the importance of collective bargaining D. Thorne: Class size limits are good for everyone, rights. In the broad context, collective bargaining rights Madam Speaker. cannot be seen as separate from other democratic and human rights of a civil society. Rights and laws equal- An Hon. Member: Smug. ize the playing field between those who have wealth and power and those who don't. Collective rights Deputy Speaker: Order, members. Members, I equalize the workplace power imbalance between know it's early in the morning. Can we please have those who own and control the system and those who order. provide their services, be they professional or un- skilled. D. Thorne: It feels like late in the evening to me, When the Liberal government came to power in Madam Speaker. I'm sure it does to you as well. 2001, the learning conditions for students in British Class size limits are good for everyone — teachers, Columbia were protected by the teachers' collective parents, students and all of society. Full scope of bar- agreement. There were specific limits on the number of gaining is a fundamental right in a democratic, civil students that could be placed in one class. There were society. The last thing education needs right now is a limits on the number of students with special needs change in the bargaining system that makes it totally that could be integrated into any one class. There were unworkable. specific supports required when students with special There has not been a single teacher-initiated strike needs were integrated. There were guaranteed levels of in British Columbia since 1993. Prior to the introduc- service for students to be provided by specialist teach- tion of provincial bargaining in the first four and a half ers such as teacher-librarians and counsellors. Some of years of teachers' collective bargaining, a B.C. student the protections for students had been in place for 11 lost less than ⁸⁄₁₀ of a day of classes per year. That's less years when the Liberals took office. than the time lost to sniffles, snowfalls and family vaca- On January 28, 2002, however, teaching and learn- tions. There has been no measurable, long-term nega- ing conditions in British Columbia took a huge step tive effect on students' progress because of any teach- backward. Overnight the Liberals gutted freely negoti- ers strike. ated collective agreements and restricted teacher bar- I'd just like to look at some statistics here on what's gaining in the future. With provisions for teaching and happened in British Columbia with the cuts in the last learning conditions stripped, we have seen class sizes four years since the Liberal government took over. I'd soar, class composition worsen, and health and safety like to specifically talk about my school district, which concerns are rising daily. We have seen 113 neighbour- is school district 43. It's been the third-largest school hood schools closed, 2,500 teacher positions lost, school district in the province for many, many years. In Co- programs eliminated and specialist services eroded. quitlam special education teachers have been cut by 9.5 This government took what had been an upper limit on percent. That's a huge number of teachers, and that loss the number of students in a class… has been felt every day by the teachers in my school district. In Coquitlam ESL teachers have been cut by 14.5 Interjections. percent, an even higher number, with ESL students growing so quickly that it's hard to believe. Many peo- Deputy Speaker: Order, members. ple may not know this, but Coquitlam is one of the top areas where refugee families from many countries around the world choose to settle when they come to D. Thorne: …and made it an average. British Columbia. The Chinese population in Coquit- lam has grown by 25 or 30 percent in the last few years, Interjections. and we have seen our ESL teachers cut by 14.5 percent.

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That is a drastic cut, and it's affecting the education of pity for these people, who have no control over the every student in the third-largest district in British Co- things they have to pay. They have no taxing power. lumbia. They're not like the municipalities, where they can In Coquitlam we have lost teacher-librarians by 18 raise taxes. I've been a city councillor for nine years. I percent. The numbers keep getting higher and more know all about the needs in the community and having horrendous. I could keep going, but I think everybody, to raise taxes, sometimes above the cost of living, in including my friends on the other side of the House, order to generate the funds to pay for these increases. gets the picture. They may not want to talk about it or The school trustees don't have that privilege. face it. They would rather harangue, but I think they Let's look at the years. In '01-02 the real per-pupil know that these statistics are true. funding was $6,770. By '04-05 this real per-pupil In the face of these drastic cuts in Coquitlam, school amount had dropped to $6,540. It's pretty tough to ex- district enrolment has only declined by 3.3 percent. The plain this in the light of all of the cries of "more and cuts in Coquitlam aren't due to declining enrolment. I more funding, more funding" from the other side of the think that's pretty obvious to anybody that can read. House, but these are the facts. This is simple mathemat- Thankfully, most of the people in this House, on both ics, which we in this House still know how to do. sides, can still read. I don't know that we'll still be able Across B.C. school boards registered a collective fund- to say that about kids in the future if we keep going ing shortfall in '02-03 of $210 million and in '03-04 of down the road we're going down today. $90 million — still a shocking amount. This is an interesting statistic: in 1998 we had 100 Speaking of Coquitlam, my school district, we had more students in Coquitlam than we have today, but at a shortfall of $5 million in '02-03 and $900,000 in '03-04. that time there were 42 more teachers employed full- Things are not looking up very much for my school time by the district of Coquitlam. That's a very interest- district or for school districts across the province. I ing statistic. Those hundred students had 42 teachers, mentioned before about the 113 schools closed. Three so we must have been teaching classes at that time al- of those were in Coquitlam, and we had 300 students most 2 to 1. Either that or there's some substance to the displaced, causing great concern for the parents and for claims that these huge classrooms are a reality. It's ei- the neighbourhoods. Some of those schools are now ther one or the other, or else the students of Coquitlam sitting empty and causing great problems with vandal- were particularly blessed with having one teacher per ism, etc. two students. When we lost those 100 students, we lost I, also, have been receiving letters — a great num- 42 teachers. ber of letters, actually. Being the third-largest school This chronic underfunding of public education. I'd district in the province, I have a lot of teachers writing just like to read a few little facts that I have here in letters. Some of these letters have gone to all four front of me on the real per-pupil funding and the dol- MLAs, so that means two from the other side of the lars. Since I have it and I'm up here today, I think I'm House and two from this side. I will bring them up, just going to read it. "The government has downloaded some of the points that are in here. many costs onto local school boards." Before I do that, I also have a letter from a young [0715] woman named Kristin from grade 12, who was sitting This has been mentioned many times over the last up here last night. She and I were both here at 2 a.m., 24 hours or 48 hours or whatever — 72 hours. I'm go- and we both left at about the same time. I'm not going ing to say it one more time, because it doesn't seem to to read the whole letter, but one of the things that she be getting through. I will try, having this loud voice has to say…. She quotes Gandhi. She says: that I have that is very difficult to be drowned out by Like Gandhi once said: "Be the change you want to see in heckling. the world." Teachers are that change. They are the stairs Pension payment increases to school boards have that allow us students to succeed in life. If the government crowds our classes, denies the respect teachers de- increased tremendously. So have MSP premium in- serve and provides an environment that is insufficient creases and B.C. Hydro rate increases, not to mention with supplies and support, what does that teach us? the salary and wage increases that were negotiated by It teaches us how to run from our problems, to disre- the province with no money given to school districts spect and take advantage of people who matter and peo- across this province to pay for them. That was a blow ple who can make a difference in the world. Being a for school trustees the morning they woke up and real- leader is a person who knows they have done wrong, ized they had to pay salary increases on top of all these takes a stand for what they believe in and helps others in other increases I've mentioned, with no money in their need of help. Teachers are those leaders. Students are the seeds that sprout. budget to do it. That resulted in huge, huge budget If our education system takes those teachers away or deficits across this province, a frightening thing for doesn't support them in a way that they can't ever sup- these school trustees, who are only people like our- port us, what does that say about our education system, selves here in this House, community citizens who our society in general or our government that we should think they can help their province and their commu- all have trust in? nity by running for public office — the reason, I as- [0720] sume, we're all here. It's the reason I'm here. Madam Speaker, this was written last night out on the These school trustees across B.C. have done the front steps by Kristin, who as I say is a secondary same thing. One can only feel sorrow and perhaps even school student here in grade 12 in Victoria. This, I

680 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 think, is an important piece of paper. I'll probably keep real and fair negotiations." It's what everybody is ask- this forever. This kind of sums up why we've been here ing for. all night talking about this. This young girl under- Here's one from a kindergarten and learning assis- stands how I feel, how my colleagues feel and how tant teacher in Coquitlam: teachers, students and parents across this province feel. I feel completely demoralized, undervalued, put down, This is a very important piece of paper. disrespected and unworthy as a professional in this prov- Some of the other letters that I've received come ince. I have been teaching passionately for 25 years but from teachers or constituents of mine in Coquitlam. increasingly find myself less able to do the kind of job that is absolutely necessary to make young people learn. I Quite a few of them have stuff in there that doesn't go to work each day feeling unsupported and almost really pertain to what I'm here talking about tonight, ashamed to be a teacher in the public school system. I but I'll try and pick out the pertinent bits so I don't bore wish and long to be valued for what I do. everybody with all the nice comments about myself [0725] that are in here. I once thought that teaching was supposed to be an This one says: honourable profession. I know that I am a competent Hi, Diane. First, I want you to know that for the very first teacher. I have always been one of the teachers on staff time in my life I voted NDP in the last election because of that other teachers turn to for support and advice. The you. I am a Liberal. I'm very pleased that you won the children I teach need me to be a positive force in their life. election and that we have a competent, knowledgable, How can I do this when I spend every day trying to quality MLA for our constituency. boost my own morale? I feel beaten. I feel attacked. Please keep us informed of the issues and what you These are very sad letters. are doing in Victoria. I want you to know that I am very Then I have a bunch of letters here that have gone angry at this government, the way they are treating teachers. The teachers are the most maligned group of to all of the four MLAs that cover the large Coquitlam professionals in our province. They work extremely hard. school district. This is from a teacher in district 43 who B.C. gets reasonably good results on student tests, and is the parent of a nine-year-old special needs boy who the government should be tested and broken on the issue is not getting the support he needs in his class, due to of teachers' wages and treatment. the educational funding cutbacks of the last four years. They are not asking for the moon. Their opening po- Our son Eric is not getting the support he needs because sition is reasonable. They are paid less than in Ontario the Liberal government have removed special needs class and Alberta and have much higher living costs. I do size and support from the collective agreement. As a rethink there is a real problem with this system. Thank you sult, Eric, who has severe ADHD and a writing output for trying. disorder, is in a grade four class that has 29 students in it, The next one says: "I hope you are voicing your eight of whom have special needs. concerns on my behalf, as one of your constituents, to His teacher is excellent and does as much as she is encourage a fair, negotiated solution to the teachers' able, but it is not nearly enough to meet Eric's needs and contract." his classmates'. Resource room time is limited due to a You know, this is what keeps coming up, Madam severe reduction in special needs staffing. I have met twice this year with Eric's classroom teacher and the re- Speaker: the fair, negotiated solution to the teachers' source room teacher, who have both told me that there is contract. This is the problem. It's free collective bar- not much more that they can do under the present staff- gaining. It really has nothing to do with Bill 12. It has ing formula. nothing to do with anything, really, that's happening in In addition, I found out that the reading recovery this House. They just want to sit down with the gov- program, which Eric took while he was in grade one, has ernment and talk about their issues and have a free now been cut. collective bargaining process. And they deserve that, in This is terrible news, Madam Speaker — terrible news. my opinion — and obviously, it's resonating with peo- They have cut that program at the school because the ple in this province as well. resources are not there to carry it on. This woman — she's one of my constituents — is a This program was invaluable to our son when he was in teacher-counsellor in Vancouver at an inner-city grade one, as it taught him how to read and maintain a school. She says that they have a school population that positive attitude towards school. Unfortunately, today is approximately one-quarter special needs and that students who have similar reading dysfunctions will not benefit from such a program, thanks to the massive fund- they have a very dedicated teaching staff trying to do a ing cuts made by the Liberals in the last four years. job, and often succeeding, very successfully, to meet I'd like to point out that Eric works as hard as he can the educational needs of all the students despite the at school, but due to his disabilities, he is not able to focus acrimonious relationship with the provincial govern- on his work long enough or write at a fast enough rate to ment. be able to keep up with his classmates. Under our previ- Another teacher from my constituency says: "We ous contract — a contract in which we voluntarily sacri- are truly treated like castoffs and reprobates by the ficed a wage increase for class-size reductions, under the Liberals. It is very demoralizing." NDP, and support for special needs students — Eric and his seven special needs classmates would have been enti- Another one: "At this time, I urge you to push this tled to in-class support by a special needs teacher or an government to reconsider the heavy-handed action of SEA. imposing legislation on the teachers of British Colum- Because the B.C. Liberals stripped the teachers con- bia. Please support us in asking the government to tract of language that protected the special needs learning meet with our elected officials in an attempt to resume environment, Eric is falling critically behind his peers

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 681

and, as a result, feels frustrated and inadequate, espe- My own school board chair says that the board's bylaw cially when he has to do up to three hours of daily to incorporate as a business company frightens her, as homework in order to stay current on assignments which it lays the groundwork for the privatization of the edu- his classmates are able to complete during class time. cation system. The chair says: Eric's scenario is happening throughout B.C., and it I wonder how fiscally prudent it will be to go into busi- disgusts me when I hear the Liberals claim to value edu- ness while we're looking at a deficit this year. I do appre- cation but willingly ignore the casualties of their educa- ciate that we are desperately in need of these funds, but tional cutbacks. They seem to think that simply keeping this represents a fundamental shift in the way we fund schools open is good enough, regardless of the fact that public education, and I don't think anyone in the prov- their dictatorial policies have crippled the very system ince should take this lightly. I get the sense that the pro- they profess to support. vincial government is encouraging private enterprise for B.C. teachers are taking action to improve the learn- school districts, and if you don't enter their realm, you're ing environment for all B.C. students so they can reach penalized in terms of funding. their full potential, and all we are asking is that the gov- This comment was made in 2003. ernment listen to us as the professionals and experts in the field of education. We are not the enemy; rather, we I see my time is up, Madam Speaker. Thank you for are the advocates of education that you, the government, letting me speak. falsely claim to be. If you have any integrity at all, you will call off this C. Puchmayr: They're starting to get my name unjust legislation and come back to the bargaining table right, and now they're starting to get my community as quickly as possible. We are there, and we will meet right. I'm very pleased to hear that, especially this early with you. You need to listen to what teachers have to say in the morning and this late in the debate. It's certainly and know that it is best for the students of our province. a privilege to rise here in the official opposition. I know Restore the contract language that will ensure that special needs students like my son will get the support they some people are probably getting up, watching the need in school. news and maybe doing a little bit of channel surfing, This is a very moving letter from a teacher who is also, and they're thinking: "Oh, the Legislature is still on as we have heard, the parent of a child who is suffering from last night." Well, it isn't. It's not a repeat. This is from the last four years of cutbacks. live. We are debating right now a motion that we put I'm assuming that the other members from Coquit- in place, and it's to hoist the bill that the government lam — the Burquitlam and the Port Moody–Westwood imposed — Bill 12. We are rising against it. I will speak MLAs and my colleague from Port Coquitlam–Burke in favour of our motion to hoist the bill. Mountain — have all read this letter and will all feel I will read the motion to those of you that haven't the same way I feel, which is very disheartened by the heard it. Maybe some of the members on the other side facts that are written in this letter. may not have heard this for a while. The motion was [0730] made. It is: [Be it resolved that the motion for the second reading of I have many more letters that I could read. I think the bill intituled Teachers Collective Agreement Act, you get the point. I don't think I need to read any more. 2005, be amended by striking out "now read a second There is just one other thing that I would like to men- time," and adding "read a second time six months tion if I have a little time left. I'd just like to mention hence."] Bill 34, which was passed early in 2002, which was the There are some very good reasons to do so. I will do amendment to the School Act and allowed school my presentation and go through a bit of history on boards to set up for-profit companies. There were five why we are here now, why we are continuing this de- school districts that I know of that have moved in that bate, and how we ended up in this type of a situation direction. Mine is one of them. This is a very controver- where the government is again looking to pick a fight sial aspect. with the teachers. As I say, New Westminster, Coquitlam and some of [0735] the others…. I was just going to say how controversial Just to back up a little bit to May 13, 2005, during this is, because it allows school boards to set up for- the election campaign — just before the vote, as matter profit companies, which moves us down a road that is of fact — the front page news was: "Premier Warns of very frightening — towards privatization, private Chaos in Teachers' Secret Plan" and "accuses that a win schools, private funding and all those things that are so for the NDP will cause turmoil, and the teachers will controversial. I, myself, am a product of the private strike before the end of the school year in June." That school system, and I grew up in a province, in New- was absolutely untrue, and it shows why we're here foundland, where there was no public school system. I today again. The Premier is trying to pick a fight, try- had many friends who came from large Irish families ing to split, trying to divide, and using the teachers and who could not afford to send all of their children to the children as pawns in this dispute. school. Some kids went for half-days; some didn't go at The BCTF certainly did not engage in any dispute. all after grade seven or grade eight. The government was elected, not with the majority that I know what a private school system can be like, it had but with a considerable loss of seats and an in- and this whole idea really frightens me. It obviously credible gain of seats by us, the opposition. I could see frightens a couple of other people too. We have two the strategy of trying to…. There was certainly the pub- school board chairs who have given their comments. lic…. There was a relentless attack on the Premier by

682 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 the public at the time. I was certainly seeing it on the about class sizes — instantly, immediately after the doorsteps when I was knocking on the doors, and it report comes out — there was a full-page ad, legisla- looked like there was a need, obviously, by the Premier tion to extend the collective agreement of the teachers. to deflect some of that. I think the nature of that was to Full-page ad in the major newspapers. Huge moneys deflect some of that heat away from the Premier and to outlaid — again, spinning a message. deflect it towards this horrible scenario should the Why, with so much money spent, were the results NDP become government. so poor? Why did the opposition go from three to 33? Now, I understand that the last time, there were Because people aren't buying into the spin anymore. two members, the member for Vancouver–Mount People are seeing the long-term effects of the divisive- Pleasant and — I can name her now — Joy MacPhail, ness of this government. People in B.C. are speaking who is no longer a member. She's now retired. Then out. the member for Surrey–Panorama Ridge came in later Did you know, hon. Speaker, that we now have, also. The three members were certainly working dili- under this government, the largest gap between the gently in trying to ensure that this House was kept rich and the poor in this country? It used to be New- honest, trying to keep this House honest and keep leg- foundland. It's now British Columbia. British Colum- islation open and have the public understand what is bia: the golden economy, the golden decade. The place going on. I can understand now, with what we have that has the golden decade. The place that used to be, been engaged in for the last over 12 hours that we have according to the other side, a have-not province but is continued this debate…. It's just amazing how two and not any more. Are they not? Maybe in pen they're not. three people used to engage in this type of debate just Maybe in ink they're not. to ensure that the public knew that there was some- Let's have a look at what we have now in this body there to keep the government honest and to try to golden decade that we hear so much about. Where's hold them to their task. the golden decade for the over doubling of the home- Since the election — 33 seats; from three to 33 — of less? It's no golden decade for them. course one of the first things the government has to do Where's the golden decade for the mentally dis- is to spend another $1.7 million to help the government abled that now have to try to requalify for income as- communicate better. If you look at the estimates, there's sistance? They're ending up…. There's one case of an additional $1.7 million in the Premier's office, addi- someone who came to my constituency office who lit- tional to the volumes of people in the Premier's office erally ran out of the office having an anxiety attack already giving information and assisting the Premier because she couldn't comprehend the kiosk where they and getting the messaging out. have to try to apply for their own assistance. This is a I did hear some comments about the last election, person that has a very severe mental illness. If that per- that the Liberals had an inability to communicate to the son hadn't found our office, she would probably be people of British Columbia about what was really go- homeless today. There are people with mental disabili- ing on in the province. "A failure to communicate" was ties that are falling victim to the system, and they're what we heard. The economy was doing well because becoming homeless. That's shameful in this golden of the high value of resources — of oil, copper, lumber, decade. electricity — and yet people were starting to see Where's the golden decade for the children with through what the government was bringing to the ta- disabilities who've lost their learning assistants due to ble. So there was another $1.7 million so that the gov- the drastic cuts? Where's the golden decade for the ernment could better communicate to people. teachers who put in hours of their own time in trying What does the Premier do when…? I'll give you a to improve the quality of life for their students? bit of an example. The Maytag dryer finally breaks Again, the government boasts of not being a have- down. What do you do when you open the dryer door not province, yet they have, through policy and cuts, and all you get is hot air? Well, what you do is hire created the largest have-not population in our modern spin doctors. That's precisely what they've done. era. Let's think about that. There are more have-not They've hired spin doctors. It's $1.7 million, an over 20- people now in this province than there have been for as percent increase in his office. Teachers, zero-zero-zero; long as I've been here, and I've been here since 1961. teacher-librarians, zero-zero-zero; learning assistants, The reason many of us were elected on May 17 is zero-zero-zero; spin doctors, 20 percent, 20 percent, 20 the reason why we're here today and the reason why percent. That is shameful — no money for our children we were here last night. The reason that British Co- but money to get the message out. lumbians wanted us here is to keep the government [0740] accountable for its actions. That is what we will do now It isn't only the money to get the message out that and what we will do as long as it takes. That's what we we saw just now in estimates, which we're starting to were elected for, and that is our passion. debate. It was also the $7 million over budget on adver- We have witnessed this tortuous attempt by the tising by this government just leading up to the cam- government to vilify our teachers. We see the govern- paign — $7 million over budget. ment that has denied teachers the right to bargain col- Not only the $7 million over budget but even…. lectively. They have taken the most crucial parts of Right after the Connolly report, which said there may collective bargaining out of the bargaining process. be some avenue for going to the table and talking You can't bargain money, and you can't bargain work-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 683 ing conditions. You can't bargain class sizes. You can't [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] bargain learning assistants. You can't bargain librarians. The teachers are in the class and seeing the chaos Yes, a well-educated society is an incredible eco- created by taking those very people out of the class- nomic driver. I plead to the members on the other side: rooms, and they're saying: "We need to go to the table, if you can't do it because it makes sense, do it because and we need to restore this so that our children aren't it makes dollars. being left behind." I went outside earlier for some fresh air and some [0745] rain. I didn't know it rained here in Victoria. I was al- The government wonders why, in 35 days of bar- ways told it didn't, but I had my first inoculation of it. gaining, they couldn't get a deal. How do you get a On the steps of the Legislature was a young teacher deal when you don't allow your bargainers a mandate who had walked — and I'm sure the chamber has to get a deal? What do they do? They impose one: Bill heard this story from many of my colleagues — the ten 12, Teachers' Collective Agreement Act. Think about miles here in frustration, gave up the sports teams and that. Collective agreement means two sides sitting just couldn't handle it anymore. Lo and behold, the down, negotiating an agreement. Collective agreement students followed him. A few hours later they're all out act — that is an oxymoron. on the front steps giving him moral support. It was an

This is not about some teachers wanting more than incredible scene. It was incredible affection these stu- their fair share. It's about class size. It's about children dents were showing for this teacher, seeing what he with disabilities. It's about needy children that we've was going through. integrated into the mainstream education system. Why [0750] did we do it? Because it's the right thing to do. It's win- Here's a letter one of his students wrote for me to win. The disabled child benefits in a learning environ- read. Her name is Kristen Barry. It says: ment with other children. The other children benefit Teachers are a vital part of every student's life. They teach them not only the given curriculum but morals and because they learn tolerance and understanding of respect. By choosing teaching as a profession, these spe- people with disabilities. cial individuals are clearly showing they care about Both of my daughters used to come home from much more than the money. By sitting in on any of the school and their eyes would light up as they would tell classes to observe, you see that teachers put more than the story about the disabled child that would talk to knowledge into their classes. They put their heart and them and the pet names they would call each other and their soul into their classes. It is time these teachers get how they would assist them. This was an amazing les- rewarded for their hard work and dedication. I'm just going to quickly read a couple of e-mails. I son for my children: a disabled child teaching my chil- found this one really interesting. E-mails have been dren how to be tolerant to people with disabilities. coming in constantly on this issue. The absolute major- You can't integrate them into our school system and ity, 99 percent, of them are in favour of supporting the then pull the funding out from under them. You can't teachers. do that. I submit that it costs more to educate that child This one is very interesting, because it's from a gen- in a system outside of an integrated system than it does tleman who was a member of the Citizens' Assembly to educate them in an integrated system. The funding on Electoral Reform. He's also a teacher. He takes issue needs to remain. A well-rounded education is invalu- with the word "collective" in the Bill 12 legislation, able in this high-tech economy. which I made reference to earlier. He also sends an- In this complex and technical world we need qual- other letter. I'm not going to read the whole letter, but ity education. I heard earlier a member from across he does talk about…. He states: "The B.C. Liberals saying that when he was in school in 1967, he had to should be ashamed of their government's decision to share textbooks and had to share a desk, and he turned violate human rights. I once thought the B.C. Liberals out okay. I guess he did. He's sitting across from me. were above that. I apologize; I was wrong." What he He seems like a very nice fellow — wrong party, nice talks about is the United Nations and what the United fellow. But that's not the education system we have Nations had to say about this government and their today. Those aren't the needs of today's education sys- practices of taking away people's human rights to free tem. It is highly skilled, it is highly technical, and it collective bargaining. Those are rights that should be shows that the more educated your workforce and synonymous with living in a free world. your children, the more prosperous your economy will The ILO — the International Labour Organization be. out of Geneva, Switzerland, which is part of the United Societies thrive when you have a well-educated Nations — has ruled that back-to-work, contract- workforce, and well-educated isn't just about reading breaking legislation passed in 2002 by the Liberal gov- and working a calculator. It's about sports; it's about ernment contravenes convention 87: freedom of asso- the arts; it's about lifestyle; it's about reading. A well- ciation and protection of the right to organize. educated society is an incredible economic driver. I like The convention on freedom of association was using that word "economic," because the members signed by Canada and all ten provinces in 1972. It ap- from the other side seem to perk up when I say that. I plies to all levels of government within the country. In believe in good economics too, because it pays divi- an uncharacteristically blunt message, the ILO has dends to our communities. ruled that the B.C. Liberal government repeatedly vio-

684 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 lated the rights of thousands of public sector employ- land. The government did seek leave to go to the Su- ees by refusing to negotiate contracts and by using preme Court of Canada and was denied, so this is the legislation to arbitrarily enforce its will. This is an or- highest decision on this issue. It states: ganization that likes to work and likes to put the posi- It seems to me that it is significant that the subject of class tions forward, but they were very blunt with the ac- sizes was negotiated in collective bargaining between tions of this government. teachers and school boards before the 2002 legislation Bill 2, the Health Services Continuation Act. They and was clearly, in the past, regarded by the parties as condemned Bill 15, the Health Care Services Collective terms and conditions of employment. The fact that the subject of class size can no longer be negotiated nor have Agreements Act; Bill 18, the Skills Development and any place in the collective agreement of the parties does Labour Statutes Amendment Act; Bill 27, Education not make that subject any less a term and condition that Services Collective Agreement Act; and Bill 28, Public affects the employment relationship. So I regard class size Education Flexibility and Choice Act. You notice the and aggregate class size a significant part of the employ- words they give to some of these? "Public flexibility ment relationship. and choice" — you're fired. You know? It kills me. Then we have the Connolly fact-finding report, which really opened…. It suddenly opened a crack Interjections. where there was an ability to maybe have the two parties get together, and I think that's why we're here now. C. Puchmayr: Yeah. It's like Water, Land and Air We're defining in our resolution…. What we're asking Protection. They got rid of all the inspectors, you know. is to put Bill 12 aside so that we can expand on that. Where's the protection there? And what's this one? The government has made some overtures beyond Collective agreement act. There's no collective; nothing what Connolly has said. The government has made was collective. Nothing was agreed to; it was imposed. overtures now by bringing in Vince Ready. That's why we're here. What that tells me is that…. The message of the

government after Connolly was that there isn't a hope, An Hon. Member: But it is an act. that it's not worth it and that we need to go forward

with the legislation. Now they're on record as saying C. Puchmayr: Yeah. Well, it is an act. They got that that they need this round table and that they need part right. Bill 29, Health and Social Service Delivery Vince Ready at the table. That's changed significantly. Improvement Act. Another one: improvement act. That is a very key point in what we're arguing here. It recommends major amendments to other pieces What we're saying is that now this motion of the gov- of legislation and calls on the government to refrain ernment should be redundant and that our hoisting from similar action in the future. In the education sec- motion should take precedence because that is the di- tor, the recommendations were to repeal Bill 18. rection the government is telling us they're willing to "…workers in this sector enjoy and exercise the right to go. strike in accordance with freedom of association principles." Bill 27: it recommends allowing employees to The Bill 12 ads…. We found out it was $54,000 per negotiate issues that have been imposed…. ad. That's 20,000 special-needs hours. I think people should note that. You know, in Quebec when the fed- Mr. Speaker: Member. Member, stick to the eral Liberals spent this money on advertising, it was amendment, please. called the sponsorship scandal. I submit to this House that this is equally as scandalous. C. Puchmayr: I'm speaking on the amendment. I hope I don't run out of time, if I can borrow a line from my colleague. Again, maybe my colleagues want Mr. Speaker: I know. Make sure it's that topic. me to hear this one more time. I think we can work together on this. I think we may be pretty close to the C. Puchmayr: This ties into the amendment and same side on this equation in view of the fact that the why we are debating it. government is now bringing in Mr. Ready. When you think about this motion, as I read it, think about Mr. Mr. Speaker: Member. Ready in the back room: [Be it resolved that the motion for the second reading of C. Puchmayr: The health and services recommen- the bill intituled Teachers' Collective Agreement Act, dations, Bill 15. It asks to permit the union, by agree- 2005, be amended by striking out "now read a second ment, to vary conditions imposed by the legislation. time" and adding "read a second time six months hence."] Mr. Speaker, I'll tie this in just by trying to show That makes a lot of sense. I think we've found some you a history of why we're here. With all respect, I common ground. need to articulate that to get to that position so that I I'm going to recap now and close my comments can show you why we're here. with this quick recap. We have the United Nations [0755] condemnation of the government. We have the highest I want to quickly go to the Court of Appeal, and I'll court of the land and Judge Lambert's decision. We read the decision on class sizes from Judge Lambert — have the fact-finding report from Connolly, which February 2005, Mr. Justice Lambert, highest court in the opens the door for saying that the two parties may be

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 685 willing to talk about class sizes and special assistants. Les Richmond Bell We have Vince Ready in the back room. Bennett van Dongen Roddick Let's defuse this volatile situation. Let's get this Hayer Lee Jarvis matter resolved adequately so that both sides can walk away from the table feeling that there was a productive Nuraney Whittred Horning resolution to this and so that our children and our Cantelon Thorpe Hagen teachers will not suffer any further from what is hap- Oppal de Jong Taylor pening here. They can go back to the class…. Bond Hansen Abbott [0800] Penner Neufeld Coleman

Hogg Sultan Hawkins Interjections. Krueger Lekstrom Mayencourt Mr. Speaker: Members, keep the noise down, Polak Hawes Yap please. MacKay Black McIntyre Rustad C. Puchmayr: That's okay, Mr. Speaker. On the main motion. Interjections. M. Farnworth: I really thought we had them there, C. Puchmayr: Mr. Speaker, if I can continue. that they had seen the light, had recognized the error of I think that we're there. I really do. I'm sure the their ways and were prepared to go with this on that other side…. They look very well rested. last motion. I have to start my place in second reading debate and outline a few things, and maybe — I am Hon. R. Coleman: Absolutely. feeling generous — realizing that perhaps in the dawn's early light they will see the error of their ways C. Puchmayr: I'm too new here to know where all and…. the hiding spots are. Some of us have carpet lint on our suit jackets, so we haven't found the good spots yet. An Hon. Member: No more singing. Some of my colleagues are extremely rested, and [0810] maybe they can now think with a fresh application to this. They're so rested, and hair is combed. M. Farnworth: No more singing. Do not worry. All I ask the other side is: please consider our motion Maybe they will see the error of their ways and take in view of all the positions that I've put forward. Let's go one more opportunity, because we on this side of the forward and resolve this. Let's say that we did something House are generous. We believe in giving them the for the children and for the teachers of British Columbia. extra chance to see the error of their ways. Therefore,

hon. Speaker, I move the motion in my name: Mr. Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, call the [Be it resolved that the motion for the second reading of question. the Bill intituled Teachers' Collective Agreement Act, be [0805] amended by striking out all the words after "that" and adding "the bill intituled Teachers' Collective Agreement Amendment negatived on the following division: Act, be not now passed at second reading because an opportunity still exists for the parties to engage in collective bargaining."] YEAS — 27

Mr. Speaker: The amendment is in order. Continue S. Simpson Fleming Farnworth debate. James Kwan Brar B. Simpson Cubberley Hammell On the amendment. Coons Thorne Puchmayr Gentner Routley Fraser M. Farnworth: As I said, on this side of the House we are very generous and believe that in a reasoned Horgan Dix Bains amendment, with an additional 18 hours to consider Robertson Ralston Krog that, they may see the light. Chudnovsky Chouhan Wyse Sather Macdonald Conroy Interjections.

NAYS — 43 M. Farnworth: There are other options, but I feel that by the end of 18 hours…. I must admit that I do

recognize the stamina of the member for Fort Langley– Falcon Reid Coell Aldergrove. I think both he and I once survived 70 Ilich Chong Christensen hours of session, both of us standing on our feet at the

686 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 end of it, so I know that the member is up for debate. I The next thing they did was to attack teachers also think, though, that his colleagues may not share themselves. As we all know, teachers take great pride his stamina or his enthusiasm for 70 more hours of in their profession, in their credentials, in their training, debate. I stand to be corrected, and I'm quite willing, if in the classrooms, in the students. They're very proud that's what they want, to offer them that opportunity of their work and their place in the communities through the various stages as the day progresses. around our province. Like many professional groups Anyway, I think it's important that we do put for- that are governed by professional colleges — such as ward this reasoned amendment, because I do think it's doctors, physicians, lawyers — they take great pride in important that we make the case for why this piece of how their profession is run, how it is organized and legislation is wrong, why it is not a bill that is, in the how it functions, and the fact that they themselves are words of the government's own spokespeople, "neces- involved in ensuring that standards are maintained, sary at this time." It is being rushed, it is legislation by that the core values each of them brings to the teaching exhaustion, and that's not the way we should be doing profession are exemplified in the college. it. The government did something unprecedented in It typifies the approach and the problem that exists this province — unprecedented, probably, right across right now in the dispute between teachers and the gov- the country. They gutted the college. They gutted the ernment. This has been more than four years in the professional body which teachers placed so much pride making, since before 2001, when the current govern- in. This wasn't just an attack on wages. This wasn't just ment said that we need to treat teachers with respect, saying: "We have no money to pay you, and we can't that teachers deserve to be paid, that the education afford to do that." People may not like that, but they system deserves to be funded, that we need to ensure can deal with that. The government questioned, in a that the needs of special needs are in place and that way that they had not questioned with any other pro- contracts are inviolate. fessional association, how teachers govern themselves. That was a major, major mistake. It was a huge setback Those were brave, proud and noble words. Yet and another lost opportunity. what happened? The government was elected in 2001 [0820] and almost immediately started changing its tune. Then the Supreme Court made a ruling around Through the actions of that government, they have class size and said that it could be negotiated. Class squandered the opportunity they had at that mandate size is very important to everybody. It's important to to establish a good relationship with teachers, to sit teachers. It's important to parents. It's important to down, to negotiate, to make things better for the stu- students. It's increasingly important because over the dents in our schools across the province. last decade and a half we've seen a greater integration [0815] in the structure of classrooms: more special needs chil- I think one of the problems was probably initi- dren, gifted children, linguistic diversity — all requir- ated very early on, when they brought in an adviser ing special challenges to meet the educational needs of from Alberta — often a big mistake. The gentleman's the 21st century. That requires more ESL teachers, name was Rod Love, who said the government had a more librarians and especially more special needs as- mandate to squash labour like a bug. The govern- sistants, and it requires from government a greater ment seemed to take his words to heart, and rather understanding of the challenges that teachers face in than extending an olive branch, they proceeded with the classroom. a series of measures that not only alienated working What happened after this court decision? The gov- people across this province but singled out teachers ernment decided that they did not like the result and in particular for what can only be described as spe- that they would rewrite the law. That was another ma- cial treatment. jor, major setback in the relationship between teachers It started with tearing up collective agreements that and the government in this province. Again it was a had been negotiated in good faith so that teachers lost opportunity to try and build or reconstruct some would not receive a wage increase, but rather, there level of trust, some level of relationship. It's unfortu- would be improvements in class size, there would be nate that that has taken place. more special needs assistance in the classroom, and the Now we fast-forward to today, 2005. We find our- focus of education would be the classroom. That's what selves in a situation where the government is deter- teachers had been arguing for, that's what the public mined to impose a contract without negotiation, with- wanted, and that's what the government campaigned out the ability of teachers, educators, to have input; to on during that election. create chaos; and to break down further any shred of That agreement was torn up — first major mistake. trust there was, creating an appalling lack of trust be- Then they had a chance to try and work with teachers. tween the teachers and the government that is proba- They had their reasons for what they did, and they bly unparalleled across the country. could have explained them and could have said: "We This time they also did something else. They've made this decision. We recognize that it may cause started to break down that trust with parents, with the hardships, but we're moving forward, and we want to public. While they're doing this around these contract at least try and restore some trust, some faith, some negotiations, prior to the last general election several sense of 'we're listening'." months ago, which returned so many of us here to this

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 687 chamber, they manufactured…. My colleague from individual who was there for their child to help their Vancouver-Kingsway was kind when he said "mis- child. They're stuck now. They're wondering: where do taken." It was no mistake. It was a deliberately manu- they turn? How does their child fit in the education factured crisis around something that was simply not system? true. It was intended to create fear. It was intended to We have teachers who have served in the commu- drive a wedge between parents and teachers, when nity for years and are finding themselves stretched to there was no need to do that. It was strictly for partisan the limit as resources that used to be in the classroom political gain. are no longer there. I'd like to mention some of those. [0825] [0830] At a time when we are trying to build confidence in Harbour View Elementary in Coquitlam. Their the education system to try and restore some of the school music program, which used to be a full-time trust that the public had in the system and that teachers program, is now nonexistent. Their library and com- used to have in the system, that is unforgivable. It is puter programs have been eroded from four days per simply, simply unforgivable. week to only three days per week — this at a time We are here today because of the actions of this when we live in advancing technology. We want our government and their desire to have this bill go children to understand the latest advances in technol- through the House by sitting round the clock when we ogy and to have access to that technology. Instead of could have adjourned yesterday at six. We could have expanding it, the reality of schools today is that it's come back next week and debated it rationally. It being cut back. That is unacceptable. That is what would have given the government time to think about teachers are concerned about. its actions, to think about the strong feeling that the Until three years ago there were restrictions in opposition had already put forth in its debates till yes- place regarding how many special needs students terday at six, the feelings that had been aroused in could be put in a classroom. There could be a maxi- teachers in communities right across the province. mum of three per class. If a class had three, it was re- They could have taken that opportunity to reach duced in overall size to ensure that special needs stu- out and offer a meaningful olive branch to establish dents and all other students could receive the help they mechanisms that would bring us back from the brink. needed. Now there are no such restrictions in any In fact, we argued that those mechanisms should have grade from kindergarten to grade 12. There are classes been done months ago, but they weren't. Now we are in the district with many more special needs students debating a bill that is determined to impose a contract than three. that does not address any of the issues that teachers, in Castle Park in Citadel Heights, in the southern end my constituency and across the province, are con- of my riding. In the school there the intermediate cerned about. classes all have 29 to 30 students. Teachers are faced I'd like to talk a little bit about my school district, with an increasing number of students with diverse about the educators in my community and how they needs and with behavioral and emotional difficulties, see things today. I represent Port Coquitlam and part yet they lack the support for these students. Schools are of Coquitlam, in school district 43. As my colleague, depending more and more on parent fundraising for the member for Coquitlam-Maillardville, has already schools — for computer labs, library books, play- stated, it's the third-largest school district in the prov- grounds, music materials, etc. ince, and a school district that is growing dramatically. They recognize a very important issue: that some In 1991, when I first ran for office, the number of neighbourhoods have better access to funds than oth- people who spoke Cantonese or Mandarin, for exam- ers, that the residents of some neighbourhoods and ple, was about 2 percent. It went higher, till prior to the some school catchment areas have a better ability to last redistribution it was up to 15 percent — new im- donate money than others. They are concerned about migrants, whose kids are trying to learn a new lan- the widening gap between those schools in neighbour- guage and who need ESL teachers. hoods where people don't have access to funds and It's an affordable community. Though recent house those that do. It is unacceptable that we have such dis- prices are changing that, it's an affordable community. parities in this province in 2005. It is unacceptable. We all know the stresses that a child with special needs Every school should have access to the same resources places on the family budget, because too many services and the same materials to provide the education that that used to be provided by government are no longer the children of our province require and that parents there. Families have to spend additional money, and expect. that stretches the budget. We have a significant number Westwood Elementary School. Counsellors have of people with children with special needs, and due to only two days per week and are responsible for the the actions of this government, those services aren't whole school, with 219 students. Learning assistance there. has been impacted. There are 30 ESL students out of I recently heard from a couple whose child has au- 219 students. That's about 15 percent. They receive one tism. They had a great special needs assistant who was morning a week available for ESL. There is not enough working with their child and making terrific progress. time for students to receive the necessary support to Unfortunately, the cuts that took place resulted in that increase school success. They used to have one full- person being laid off, so they didn't have access to the time teacher. Now they don't.

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I know that neighbourhood. It's changing dramati- never mind the changing diversity and composition cally as people move in from other nations and other that's occurring in classrooms. countries. Classroom teachers have noticed that stu- They made life difficult for school districts, and the dents arrive with increasingly diverse needs, and it's result has been a reduction of services in classrooms, a becoming increasingly difficult to meet these needs reduction of resources for classrooms, increasing chal- within larger class sizes. lenges for teachers and increasing problems in the More and more of what used to be administrative classroom. The result is that students suffer. Teachers work is falling on the teachers. There are increased are frustrated, parents are frustrated, and they are ask- expectations for data collection and paper communica- ing: when will this government get the message? tions. The job of teachers is to teach. It is not to be data [0840] collectors. This is the situation that exists in our school That's why we have moved this reasoned amend- district. ment: to give them one more chance, one more oppor- [0835] tunity to recognize that it is not too late, that it is not I have a letter I'd like to read from a teacher in the the last hour, that they can try and rebuild the relation- district. ship with teachers, that they can try and restore the I would like to thank the Minister of Education for help- faith that parents used to have in our education system. ing me make up my mind about whether to vote in fa- The road to Damascus is not an easy one. vour of a strike or not. I have taught for eight years, and I love my job. I love working with kids. I love teaching and Interjection. coaching them. I love going to their dances as a chaper- one, their plays and concerts to watch them perform, their athletic events to watch them compete. I love seeing M. Farnworth: Sometimes, hon. member, it takes them in the malls, at the restaurants and at the hockey, one, two or three times to recognize the error of your lacrosse and soccer games on the weekends and eve- ways. As I said in the beginning of my remarks, we're nings. I often keep in touch with the graduates, and they generous on this side of the House. often come back to visit myself and other colleagues at my school. J. Horgan: To a fault. The hallmark of great teachers: students remember them, and they want to keep in touch — an indication M. Farnworth: My colleague says, "To a fault," and of the dedication that we all know that teachers in this he may be right. Maybe we are letting ourselves in for province have. another 18 hours to give them that opportunity. Or as When the minister says that I have yet again failed to put the member for Fort Langley–Aldergrove said: "Well, my students first, it cuts to the bone. How can the minister possibly know what goes on at the schools — at my we've done 70 hours." Maybe we'll do that, but guess school, in my hallways and classrooms? I would love to what. If us doing that means that the government…. see the minister come to my school and show me a teacher that doesn't care about our kids. Interjections. I don't want to go on strike. However, the best way to get through to this government that says they care M. Farnworth: I sense that on the government side about kids is for teachers to stick up for the kids. We need of the House there are those whose spirit may be will- to get back to ensuring that kids come first and that the ing and those whose spirit may be weak, but I would resources are there in the classroom. I could make some snide comments that would paint all politicians with the say to those members: strengthen your spirit; recognize same brush, but that wouldn't be accurate or fair — the error of your ways. Take the time that we are offer- much like the minister's assertion that teachers don't care ing you, because whether it is 18 hours or 70 hours, if about kids. you come to the decision, the realization, that children It's an indication of the frustration that teachers are and parents want you to reconsider this bill, then all of feeling, and it's reflective of the views of parents as this debate will be worth it. well. In one of the middle schools in the riding, they With those comments and remarks, I will take my have a teacher-librarian only two days a week. "The place. I await anxiously the response of the govern- Ministry of Education is changing the curriculum in ment, whether it takes 18 hours or 70 hours. many areas, but they are not providing adequate funding to implement these changes." K. Conroy: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this rea- That's a pattern that we have seen over the last four soned amendment, but before I speak, I would just like years. We are told that government has increased fund- to take the opportunity to thank your staff and the staff ing to education, and therefore, "there cannot be cuts, of this Legislature for the job they've done, the under- because we have increased the funding for education." standing and patience they've had with all of us in the Guess what. They're right. They did put more money last 24 hours and their commitment to this House. It into education. What they don't want to talk about is has been an interesting 24 hours. the other side of the equation: how they made school I have listened to my fellow members speaking for boards absorb and eat a salary increase, how they the last four days and throughout last night. It is inter- made school boards absorb and eat MSP premium in- esting that in my role as Whip for the official opposi- creases, how they made school districts absorb and eat tion, it's been my job to ensure that all of our MLAs dramatic costs in heating — never mind inflation, have had an opportunity to speak to Bill 12, to the hoist

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 689 motion and now to this amending motion introduced Act, 2001, which made education an essential service this morning by my colleague from Port Coquitlam– under the Labour Relations Code. Burke Mountain. At no time have I had a lack for Now, we all know that education is important and speakers to any of these bills or motions, as every essential, but Bill 18 wasn't intended to show the gov- member on this side of the House is concerned and ernment's appreciation for the importance of our public outraged by the draconian measures being foisted school system. It was intended to restrict the right of upon this province by this government. teachers to engage in job action to protect that system. This side of the House and the people of the prov- It was intended to weaken teachers' ability to defend ince are asking why this government feels the need to students, to defend parents, to defend classroom condi- implement such legislation, legislation that not only tions. Fortunately, for all of us, the teachers refused to takes away the democratic rights of teachers in this accept this assault on our education system. province but threatens the very fabric of what is so In addition to initiating litigation in British Colum- precious to all of us and what everyone who has spo- bia, the teachers went all the way to Geneva to the In- ken on both sides of this House has said: the education ternational Labour Organization, where they asked a of our children. United Nations committee to condemn the B.C. Liber- [0845] als for its war on teachers. The committee did. It ob- I can talk about my educational experiences. I can served that education is not a sector where the right to also talk about my children's amazing teachers and the strike can be restricted or prohibited. support they've had over the years to make them into In March 2003 the ILO stated the following: "Recall- what I believe are the confident young adults they are ing that the right to strike is one of the essential means today. I can also talk about my two granddaughters through which workers and their organizations may who've just started kindergarten. But I think it is more promote and defend their economic and social inter- important that we all have some education this morn- ests, the committee concludes that the provisions of Bill — ing education on what I believe is happening in this 18, which makes education an essential service, are in — province and a bit of history on how we got here violation of freedom-of-association principles and and why this amending motion is so important. should be repealed." Did the government follow the Let's make no mistake. There is an epic struggle ILO's recommendations? No. It disregarded the advice going on in British Columbia today, a war on teachers, of this United Nations organization, regrouped and on educators, the very people who we daily entrust prepared for further battle. with the education of our children, our most valuable Before jumping ahead to 2003, let's go back a bit to resource. This war is being fought by this Liberal gov- 2001. On June 30 of that year the collective agreement ernment, and it is being fought in the Legislature. It is between the BCTF and the employers' association ex- being fought in courtrooms. It is even being fought pired. After 50 days of negotiations, the BCTF reluc- before United Nations committees. And it is being tantly served a strike notice on November 5, 2001. fought against teachers, against students, against parents and families, with British Columbia's tax dollars. [0850] This government has suffered major setbacks in this The position taken by the government through the war, including numerous court decisions supporting employers' association was going to cause serious the teachers' positions, the United Nations Interna- damage to B.C.'s public education system. The em- tional Labour Organization rulings condemning the ployer had been given a bargaining mandate from the government's handling of our education system, and government. It intended to remove class-size limits, widespread public support for our public educators. abandon guarantees of support for students with spe- But every time the government appears to be defeated, cial needs and eliminate standards of service from spe- every time it appears that fairness, justice and the pro- cialist teachers such as librarians, counsellors, and ESL, tection of our education system will prevail, the gov- special education and learning assistance teachers. ernment brings out its secret weapon, its legislative The BCTF job action plan was approved by the La- hammer, to overrule B.C. Supreme Court judges; to bour Relations Board. The plan was specifically de- contradict the findings of the B.C. Court of Appeal, the signed to increase pressure on the government and highest court in this province; and to disregard the employers' association with minimal impact on stu- recommendations of international organizations. dents. The teachers were taking a stand in defence of As I said, this war on teachers has been an epic students, in defence of parents, in defence of our struggle, so let's start from the beginning. Let's have a schools, but the government would have none of that. history lesson on how we have come to Bill 12 and to It brought out its legislative hammer once again. It the motion on the table this morning — some factual enacted Bill 27, Education Services Collective Agree- history and none of the revisionist history the members ment Act, and imposed a new contract on the teachers. opposite are so fond of telling. Now, keep in mind that the teachers also brought Bill Let's start with the basics, something I'm sure we all 27 before the ILO committee, which stated the follow- agree on: that the B.C. Liberal government was first ing in March 2003: "The committee firmly requests the elected in May 2001. In August of 2001 the government government to avoid in future having recourse to such took its first swing at B.C. teachers. It enacted Bill 18, legislative settlement." Obviously, the government has Skills Development and Labour Statutes Amendment ignored this ILO request.

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At the same time that it enacted Bill 27, the Liberal they won. The hon. Mr. Justice Shaw squashed the ar- government brought in Bill 28, Public Education Flexi- bitrator's decision, ruling that it contained fundamental bility and Choice Act. Bill 28 essentially removed the errors on points of law that were of importance to the ability of teachers to have input into the conditions in education system of British Columbia, including the the classroom and in schools. Teachers could no longer teachers, the school boards and the students. negotiate class size, school days, assignment of courses, [0855] class composition or staffing ratios for teacher- The teachers had won another victory in the courts, librarians, ESL teachers, counsellors and learning re- a victory not only for themselves but also, as Justice source teachers. Any provisions in their existing con- Shaw seemed to indicate, for the entire education sys- tracts that addressed these matters were torn up. tem of British Columbia, including school boards and Once again, the United Nations — the ILO — con- students. "Not so fast," said the government. With a demned this action. It stated the following: "Such a flick of their legislative wrist, they invoked their legis- unilateral action by the authorities cannot but intro- lative hammer, their weapon of choice in this war on duce uncertainty in labour relations which in the long teachers. term could only be prejudicial." Another legislative On April 20, 2004, the government introduced Bill hammer. Another condemnation from the United Na- 19, the Education Services Collective Agreement tions body. Another blow to the public education sys- Amendment Act, 2004, which overruled Justice Shaw's tem in B.C. The Liberal government ignored the ruling, decision and ensured that there could not be contrac- and the war on teachers continued. tual guarantees of class-size limits, services to students Teachers refused to roll over. Their commitment to with special needs or support from specialist teachers protecting our education system remained strong, even in B.C. schools. In effect, Bill 19 implemented the arbi- in the face of government's ongoing assault. They have trary decision that the B.C. Supreme Court previously continued to insist that class size and other classroom found to be fundamentally flawed. In other words, the matters are conditions of employment and that they government disregarded the arbitration process. It dis- must be allowed to negotiate these matters with their regarded the judicial process, and it disregarded the employer. rule of law. Recently the B.C. Court of Appeal agreed. As re- Bill 19 resulted in the stripping of hundreds of con- cently as February 2005, the highest court in this prov- tract terms from teachers' collective agreements. Those ince stated that class size is a "condition that affects the terms have been there to protect learning conditions for employment relationship." children. Examples of provisions from across this province include the following: [S. Hawkins in the chair.] From the Kamloops-Thompson collective agreement: "Clear administrative procedures shall be estab- The honourable Mr. Justice Lambert of our Court of lished for the carrying-out of fire and earthquake drills Appeal said the following: that expedite the evacuation and care of students with It seems to me that it is significant that the subject of class special needs." sizes was negotiated in collective bargaining between From the Cariboo-Chilcotin collective agreement: teachers and school boards before the 2002 legislation "The placement of a student with special needs shall be and was clearly in the past regarded by the parties as a determined by the student's intellectual, emotional and term or condition of employment. The fact that the sub- physical needs." ject of class size no longer can be negotiated nor have any From the Langley collective agreement: "The con- place in the collective agreement of the parties does not make that subject any less a term or condition that affects sideration of integrating a special needs student shall the employment relationship. So I regard class sizes and involve consultation between district staff, parents and aggregate class sizes as a significant part of the employ- guardians, teachers and administrative officers. The ment relationship. placement of a special needs student shall be deter- The government has disregarded Justice Lambert's mined by the student's educational needs." decisions, and its actions continue against teachers. It Many from the Surrey collective agreement, includ- continues to contradict the principles that have been ing, "Staffing ratios shall not decrease below one articulated by our courts Take, for example, the gov- teacher-librarian for every 649 students," and on and ernment's enactment of Bill 19 in 2004. But first, a little on. All of these provisions had been in place to ensure bit more background, a little bit more history that re- that students' learning conditions were protected. All lates to the motion that's on the floor today. have been stripped. And that's not all. After removing teachers' rights to negotiate class- From the Delta collective agreement: "In emergency room matters, the government appointed an arbitrator situations, the board will do everything possible to to decide which contract terms were to be stripped quickly assemble the appropriate resources and to pro- from teachers' contracts. The arbitrator ruled that hun- vide the necessary support mechanisms to assist teach- dreds of pages of class size and composition provisions ers in meeting the needs of all children in the class- should be removed — a flawed and legally incorrect room." Emergency situation provisions were stripped decision which appeared to favour the government's from the contract. positions on these matters. The teachers challenged the From the Gulf Islands collective agreement: "A lab- arbitrator's decision in the B.C. Supreme Court, and oriented science class or workshop where student

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 691 safety is a vital factor shall be limited to 24 students." grandparents, administrators — are the casualties of We've heard throughout the night the number of stu- this debate. dents that are in these labs, which are crowded, and For the sake of our children, we must put an end to where safety is not an issue. Again, remember that all this. For the sake of the over 25 schools in the constitu- of these protections for students were stripped away by ency that I represent in the West Kootenay–Boundary the government. As you can see, over the last four and area, we need to put an end to this. We need to pass a half years, teachers, schools, students and the entire this amending motion so that teachers have once again education system have been under attack. The perpe- the opportunity to bargain in good faith with this gov- trator has been the government. ernment. Most recently teachers have argued in front of an I need to tell you that in my constituency I have arbitrator and in front of the B.C. Court of Appeal that three different school districts. One of our school dis- limitations on their ability to criticize the government's tricts has, from the time of 2001 to 2005, 12 percent assault on the education system violated their constitu- fewer students in that district, but in fact they have 18 tional right to freedom of expression. The arbitrator percent fewer teachers. They have 29 percent fewer and the Court agreed. In her August 2005 judgment, learning assistance teachers. They have 20 percent the Hon. Madam Justice Huddart made the following fewer librarians, 11 percent fewer counsellors and 48 comments: percent fewer schools. It is difficult to see how discussion about class size and In fact, I'd like to read to you the number of schools composition, in relation to the needs of a particular child, that have been closed in one school district in my con- by an informed and articulate teacher could do anything stituency, and it's not a large school district. In that but enhance confidence in the school system. Given the school district, we've lost Beaver Valley Middle School, public nature of the debate over those issues, a complete Kinnaird Middle School, Montrose Elementary, Tarrys prohibition on any discussion of class size and composi- Elementary, Trail Middle School, Blueberry Creek tion seems an overreaction, one with the potential to undermine teachers' dignity and professional status. Community School, Cook Avenue Elementary School, Sunningdale Elementary School and Valley Vista Ele- The employers' association, an agent of the gov- mentary School. In fact, we've lost the entire middle ernment, disagrees with Madam Justice Huddart. It has school program from that school district. The kids are appealed the Court of Appeal decision. Apparently, the struggling. The teachers are struggling. I've had e- employer, like the government, doesn't think the teach- mails, letters and notes from teachers, parents and stu- ers should be talking about teaching. They don't seem dents throughout the constituency, thanking us for to think that educators should be talking about educa- making sure that their issues are heard in this House. tion. They don't seem to think that individuals working We're going to continue to make sure their issues on a daily basis with children and students should are heard in this House so that everyone in the House have a say in determining the conditions of that work, knows it is in the best interest of this House to say that which brings us to the current Bill 12, the Teachers' we do need to pass this amending motion. We do need Collective Agreement Act. to make sure that the teachers once again have the op- [0900] portunity to go to the table to bargain a free collective Once again, teachers have taken a stand in defence bargaining agreement with this government that is in of public education. Once again, teachers are advocat- the best interests of the students of this province and ing for improvement in classroom conditions, and once the best interests of education. again, the government has invoked its legislative hammer in an attempt to silence the teachers. N. Macdonald: It is my pleasure, again, to speak to The teachers bargained in good faith for a new con- this issue. It's been an all-night session, and it's a new tract. They came to the negotiating table with the best experience for me but one that I'm proud to be part of. interests of students in mind, and what did they find at I'm proud to be here as a representative of my area and the table? They found an employers' association with a to bring to this Legislature my experience as a principal narrow, restrictive and unreasonable bargaining man- as well as a teacher and a teaching assistant over the date handed down by the government. "Can we talk years. about wages?" teachers asked. "No," replied the gov- This amendment would allow the government to ernment employer. "Can we talk about working condi- actually talk with their employees. It would be nice to tions, including class sizes and other important educa- win that vote. I'm told that that is not likely to happen. tion issues?" asked the teachers. "No," was the answer. In that case, we can always put forward other solu- Instead of talking about these things, instead of tions, and I look forward to the opportunity to speak to negotiating constructively and cooperatively, the gov- them in another 18 hours. ernment, through legislation, is once again trying to [0905] impose a contract on teachers, remove their legal rights This morning, starting at 6:30 a.m., there were peo- to engage in job action and curtail their ability to pro- ple in my riding walking on picket lines. I know almost tect and defend students and public education. And so all of the people that would be involved, certainly in the epic battle goes on. The war on teachers continues the communities from the same district that I was in — to be fought by this government, and we British Co- that would be from Golden down through the Colum- lumbians, all of us — students, teachers, parents, bia Valley, all the way down to Kimberley. On different

692 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 occasions with professional development or at times a mindset around making sure you establish rules and when I worked in these other communities…. The that they are followed. That becomes part of your per- people there do not move around very much. Very sona. To take that group and actually get them feeling often, within the same district, they will be there their so under attack that they would take this action says a whole careers. As we're standing here and as I'm talk- great deal about the attitude of the government. ing, I know they're doing something that many of them [0910] thought they would never, ever do. They're walking the line in defiance of a govern- I have to ask myself: how did we get to this place in ment that has consistently treated them the same way this province? I know these people; I can picture them. that they have treated all parts of this province — well, I worked at the secondary school. As I said, I was a certainly my part of the province. It is reckless, and principal at Nicholson Elementary School. I can actu- there's a degree of indifference to what has gone on. ally have an image of some of the people that are in- As I listened to the Minister of Education in the last volved, like Kay — all of you will have teachers you few days, but in particular yesterday, the statements know that you can imagine — or Heather or Sharon or could not have been more misguided. She does not Doug, and to see them on a picket line rather than in a describe any reality that I have experienced as a princi- classroom…. pal, and I say that with complete respect. What she What this government has done…. What could you describes is something completely different from the possibly have done that would get 90 percent of these experience that I have as a principal, that 90 percent of people to choose, rather than teach, to go out on a teachers have; 90 percent voted not to go to work to- picket line — to choose not to go to work? What has day. All of them are out, and that says a great deal this government done that makes these people defy a about the Minister of Education and this government, labour board ruling? and ultimately, the Premier. I can tell you that everyone knows, because we've You know, there are a tremendous number here seen it again and again — whether it's Christy Clark or who would put the blame on the Premier's office. It the minister here or the Premier — that the approach is seems that there is a predetermined plan to create a consistently conflict. It's confrontation, and it's a con- crisis. There are many educators that firmly believe stant attack on public education. It is four years of sys- that, and that belief comes from experience. There's a tematic abuse — whether it's Revelstoke or Kimberley. question about who runs the show here and the feeling In fact, teachers, educators, all across this province that it's the Premier's office. As with everything this genuinely feel that no one is listening and that this government does, it's based around polling and sound government does not particularly care about public bites, but what it should be about is proper governance education. and a public system that is worth protecting and worth What sort of government could be so arrogant and, speaking for. That certainly deserves the attention of perhaps, incompetent that they could make that hap- the minister and just taking a bit of time to sit down pen? These are elementary teachers, new teachers, ex- with the employees — 40,000 employees that have been perienced teachers, kindergarten, senior high, all walk- consistently reasonable. ing out, despite the Minister of Labour's threats and People at home wonder how serious the govern- despite the loss of salaries. Even with a short disrup- ment was about trying to solve this, especially when tion, they'll never get it back with any salary increase. they know that the newspaper ads were already ready What makes them do that? You need to understand — full-page ads, every daily on Tuesday, arranged the people that are doing this. When I was in univer- before the Connolly report was even back. Each ad cost sity, the first university courses I would take would be — what? $50,000? Three papers, $50,000 — that's during the day, mainly with students my own age, and enough for three special education teachers. Publicly we would go together to classes. There was one eve- paid ads, much of the information twisted, much of the ning class that I took. This evening class was also a information misleading. We asked 20 times in question class that was taken by teachers who were working, so period what the ads cost. The Minister of Finance they were coming as a professional development to would not tell us. She said we could find out in June. take the class. They were, for the most part, experi- To members of the government, I say very clearly enced elementary teachers, and they joined us in class. that the approach the government takes makes every- I can remember sitting there in class chewing gum. one here a loser — teachers, parents, students and gov- It was a university; like, who cares? But as I sat beside ernment. The thing is that this is all unnecessary. The the elementary teachers, I just got this tremendous record of this government is choosing conflict and con- sense of unease. They did not like me doing something frontation as the preferred method every single time. that they did not think should be done in a classroom. This time they're trying to kick around educators. I These are people — and not to stereotype, because I don't know who is next, but I know that where I come know within this group there are a lot of educators, but from, people reject it. because I was one of them…. I know, actually, that During the last election, we didn't have a tremen- within the government caucus there are educators, and dous amount of money, so the number of ads that we they will know this: this is the most conservative group had, the number of signs that went up, was bound to you could get. This is a group where throughout your be limited. But over a six-month period what I did is career, you have a mindset around order, and you have what many people here did. I went door to door, and

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 693 now, more than any other time, I have a sense of where the approach. It is too heavy-handed on the part of people are at in my community. government. What they consistently said was that they objected There is every opportunity to handle this dispute to the way certain people in the community were the way it should be, the way we would expect adults treated and that what they expect from government is to approach something. There has not been one genu- this…. They do not like arrogance on the part of gov- ine meeting between the government or whatever body ernment, whether it's Liberal or NDP or any govern- you put between the government and the teachers. ment. People where I am from do not like arrogance. There have been 35 meetings, but there has been no They do not like a government that seems dismissive of genuine discussion. Very clearly, there has been a con- their concerns. They don't like a government to be bul- certed effort to work this through to a crisis, and there lying. They don't like that in people they deal with. seems to be some belief on the part of this government They certainly do not accept it from government. that the crisis will work to their benefit. There's a very clear view that the government is the Let's just go through the facts. School is disrupted servant of the people, and that's the way it should be. If today. For the Minister of Education, that is a failure. you are a servant, you do not approach the people that My daughter won't be in classes, like many other stu- are paying with a degree of arrogance. dents. I talked to my daughter this morning. I can't say [0915] that she sounded very, very upset. Nevertheless, as a What we saw in our communities were reckless parent, I would prefer that she be in school. She's a attacks on the health system. In Revelstoke, it's Mo- grade 11 student. In fact, I woke her up. She did not berly Manor. People rejected and fought against at- sound at all upset that she wasn't in school, to be hon- tempts to degrade that facility. There was a lack of care est. when this government closed hospital beds in Golden, and people fought against it. There was utter incompe- An Hon. Member: Upset at you. tence in closing the hospital in Kimberley. People rejected it and fought against it. N. Macdonald: Yeah, upset at me. That's right. The member says she's upset at me for waking her. With education, this government closed schools in But very clearly, the responsibility for this crisis lies Revelstoke, Parson, Wasa, Radium, Canal Flats and squarely with the Premier and his government. This Kimberley, and people fought against it. But consis- government always chooses conflict and confrontation tently, they weren't listened to. Consistently, they were as their very first option. For four years this govern- treated with arrogance, and there was a lack of listen- ment has deliberately pursued actions that are in- ing. tended to provoke conflict with teachers. First they tore Recreation sites, forestry offices, conservation offi- up the contract in 2002. Then they stripped teachers of — cers, courthouses in all of these, the community re- the self-governing body in 2003. acted, because fundamentally, it was unfair. We'll just talk for a minute about the College of Now, with Bill 12, it is the teachers, and of course, Teachers. The College of Teachers is a professional teachers push back. The tactic of this government is an body that I was part of. It was a body that allowed us example of an approach to politics that's confronta- as teachers to elect members to be part of it. tional, and it serves to fracture society rather than build [0920] it. Whether it's this issue, health care, conservation is- I had a good friend who was a member of the Col- sues or senior reform, there is a pattern that people in lege of Teachers, which was an organization that was my part of B.C. really clearly rejected. set up by the Social Credit Party. It wasn't something At the UBCM a lot of people came and talked to that at the time was asked for necessarily, but once it me, and they said they were really pleased with the was set up, teachers embraced it and worked within it. approach that both sides took there. They say that they Without consultation, as seems to have been the pat- thought NDP MLAs and government MLAs at that tern with this government, the college was taken over. conference conducted themselves with the appropriate Now, ultimately for Christy Clark, it was a failure. She level of grace and dignity. wasn't able to accomplish what she tried to accomplish, In statements at that conference, I think both lead- but it was just one more example of what is a pretty ers and both sides spoke in a language that local lead- consistent attack on teachers. ers really appreciated. We reached out to each other. Teachers were used as political pawns in the 2005 We seemed to be listening. What they said, and this election. There's no question about that. In our area, a was unsolicited…. People would come up and say — candidate that I was running against refused to attend they would very clearly and very deeply mean it — any education forum or any health forum. I don't know that that's a positive thing. "That's something that we if that was the case across the province, but it seemed want to see happen. We want you to listen to each ridiculous to not even be willing to talk about educa- other. We want you to treat each other with respect." tion in a provincial election. There was nothing else I think this government is going to find that, de- going on, but the candidate would not even show up to spite all the polling the Premier's office has done, de- talk about education. spite all the spin that has been arranged so that this Bill 12 is going to do absolutely nothing to improve will work politically, people in B.C. are going to reject learning conditions in the classroom. It was an im-

694 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 posed contract in the first place; an extension of it is a they will continue to get worse. So properly, they deliberate provocation, and the fact that you would should be within contract. choose to do that shows a complete disregard for the How can you have a system where you don't have education system. teachers or educators able to talk about learning condi- Over the last four years that education system has tions? For 35 meetings you've had teachers come and been consistently hurt. They have cut dozens of teach- meet with government, and in every case government ing positions, and they have increased class size in my refuses to talk about learning conditions. It makes no riding. They have closed eight schools in my riding, sense at all. and three of those have been in communities that only I spent six years teaching in Africa — six years. In had the one school. So it forced people onto the buses. those six years I taught for two years in Lesotho at a They froze education funding at the same time that local school. I taught four years in Tanzania. I can tell they downloaded incredible amounts of cost onto the you that in both of those countries the first thing they local school boards, and if somebody thinks that the were trying to do was somehow figure out how to get system is not in crisis, then they simply have not been what we have. They were trying to figure out how they in the class. They have not seen it. Now, that is either could get a health system that would try to meet the purposeful, or it is simply going in a bubble — incom- needs of some of the people there, and they were trying petence. to get an education system. Without an education sys- School boards were forced to make cuts in pro- tem that works, you have nothing. grams, and that's for a number of reasons. The cost for You have to live in one of these countries to under- salaries, salary creep, MSP increases, utility increases stand what everyone in China or in India or in any — all of these meant that costs were going to go up, place else like that that is developing…. What they all and government did not match costs going up. understand is that you need your population educated. I want to talk for a minute about some other places You need it for business to work; you need it for gov- that I've worked. I think very often we take this system ernment to work. It is absolutely crucial. What these for granted. B.C. has one of the best education systems African countries were trying to do was build up that in the world. Despite the fact of what we're talking public system — a system that, over a century, we have about now, it still remains one of the best systems. You built up here. We've built it up incrementally. Behind have 90 percent of the teachers out. This is a group, as everything that we have, there is some thought, some I've said before, that would not lightly take that action. history. So to play with it recklessly is something that This does not work in any way for teachers. It is done somebody in the system finds really offensive. out of desperation. What this government has consistently done has One of the reasons I ran to get this position was out been reckless. I've very often thought…. When I was a of a sense of desperation for some of the public systems principal, I would hear Christy Clark. I would hear the that we have in place that I know are absolutely crucial things that she said, and there was not one person in to making Canada work. The public health system in my school who thought that what she said was genu- my community was one, and second was the education ine, that she actually understood what was going on at system. The public education system in B.C. is really the school level. The things that she intended to put in special, and I don't know how many people have had place…. If she had listened to teachers, she could have the opportunity to live in a country that does not have made them work. In some cases, we would struggle to as good a system as we have here. Consistently, what make them work. But there was no listening. There was teachers are going to tell you is that it is holding to- no connection, and she seemed far more interested in gether. The 150 million that came in pre-election saved sound bites than in actually accomplishing excellence it in my riding. It saved it, but there's still this deep in education. That continues to this time. sense of it heading in the wrong direction, of all of the I do not see that goal of excellence in education. things that are important slowly being stripped away. What you have today…. The reason you have 90 per- When I hear the Minister of Education use lan- cent of teachers…. How often do 90 percent of people guage that will sound perhaps to a layman like it is agree on anything? It's a secret ballot, and 90 percent logical, and perhaps she believes it…. But I can tell you voted to do this. All of you know teachers. I would just that what she talks about will not work in practical put it in your mind. I know there are teachers on the terms, and the reason why you have 90 percent of government benches, and a lot of them have a back- teachers out is because they know that. They know that ground in education — at least a few. A lot of them are what she's talking about has nothing to do with reality. thinking: "Well, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't walk [0925] out." You know, every single teacher that's out there today thought the same thing. They thought: "I would [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] never do that." That is what they're thinking. "I never thought that I would do this — that I would go against When you talk about learning conditions and put- the rules, that I would not be there to teach." ting them into legislation, well, they've been in legisla- The gentleman that was here…. I hope you met him tion. They used to be within contract. As a principal, I or talked to some teachers. I mean, there've been teach- can tell you that they used to be in contract. Now ers here for weeks. Do you think they're making it up they're in legislation. Well, they've gotten worse, and when they talk about the desperation? They're talking

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 695 about the frustration with this government. They're not out of this…. They should think instead of sitting down making it up. It's absolutely true. Part of the reason I've and doing the right thing. What I would implore the given up this portion of my life is to try to tell peo- members on this side to do is to support this motion ple…. Now, nobody on that side is listening. They're all and to do what they should know in their hearts is the being very polite and quiet. Nobody's listening. But I right thing. With that, Mr. Speaker, I thank you for wish they would hear. It is a system that does not your attention. work. The system does not work because of the atti- [0935] tude of this government. [0930] C. James: I rise this morning after a very long night What would it take on this issue? What would it for all of us to speak to the amendment that provides have taken on hundreds of other issues in the past four this government with an opportunity to solve the chal- years to sit down, to listen? Instead of moving to brute lenge facing them. force and to threats and to intimidation, what would it I want to start off by thanking my colleagues for take to sit down and respectfully work this out? It standing up for principle, for the contributions that would take very little, and it's an indictment of this each of them has made to this debate. I also want to government, an indictment of this minister, that it has thank all of the staff who work here in the Legislature not happened. It is an utter failure of this Premier that and who also worked all night to help us out. On very he is not here to take command of this and to bring short notice the staff of the legislative dining room, resolution to this crisis. Hansard, housekeeping and security all rose to the Coming back to Africa, you have a position there challenge and made it possible for us to serve the peo- where you have…. ple of this province. I see we're joined by students. Welcome. I want to thank the teachers, school boards, parents, One of my first experiences as a teacher was in Le- students and ordinary British Columbians who sotho. It's a very small African country, at that time watched the debate through the night, who e-mailed surrounded by a South Africa that was quite hard on and who called because they know how important this its neighbouring African countries. This was back in debate is to our province. the late or mid-eighties. The school I was at was a In particular, I want to thank the students who Catholic boys school, Christ the King, and it was run gathered here on the front steps of the Legislature all by a group of brothers. As the brothers aged, they were through the night to show their support for teachers trying to replace themselves with locals. The experi- and education. They remind all of us in this House ence I had there was that, as a new teacher but one who about what this debate is all about. They remind us had been trained in the Canadian system, I was able to that this debate is about the future of our province, come in and offer as a volunteer my abilities. It was an about the kind of province that the next generation is experience for me, of course, and for my wife that was going to inherit. really tremendous. I know the Premier had a very simi- Late last night I spoke about the importance of edu- lar experience early in his life. cation, about its role in driving innovation, progressive What I saw there first off is the importance of edu- social change and economic growth. This morning I'd cation in general. I also saw the importance of making like to talk about the importance of learning. The poet sure that the conditions you provide for teachers are Robert Frost described learning as "hanging around looked after. In Lesotho the experience was this. We until you've caught on." What he meant is that we learn had three graduates that the brothers paid to get addi- from our experiences. Mark Twain said that education tional training and that came back as teachers — so we consists mainly of what we have unlearned, meaning had three teachers that came back to the school. They that we should always strive to have the wisdom and taught for one year, and during that year they were maturity to recognize when we have made mistakes exceptional. They coached — a lot of energy. They had and to learn from those mistakes, realizing when old skills. It looked like we would have the beginning of habits are no longer serving others or even ourselves the local teacher force that we needed. and having the courage to change. As time went on, over the course of the year, they The points that these two great men of letters made realized that they simply were not getting what they are particularly relevant today in British Columbia as needed to continue. At the end of the year all three left. we debate this legislation and debate an amendment to All three of them joined the army as privates, where this legislation that provides this government with an they would get enough money to get married and have opportunity. They're relevant because this government a family. had four years to learn from their mistakes — to learn You need the conditions, and what you have today that what the people of this province want is a bal- is teachers out, teachers risking everything to make anced approach, a fair approach. sure that the education system which they know is British Columbians sent this government a very important is going to be improved, is going to be clear message during the last election. The people of looked after. What this motion calls for is for the gov- this province said clearly that they want an end to con- ernment to sit down and have a genuine discussion. It frontational government. The people of this province calls on the government to, rather than play games and said they want a government that cares about every- think of polling and how they can get a political spin one. The people gave this government a second man-

696 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 date, but they also demanded a fundamental change in creating a healthy, democratic, civil society where the attitude. equal moral worth of every citizen is recognized and When we started off this legislative session, for a supported, where we have a sharing of opportunity few short weeks it appeared that this government and an expansion of citizenship rights and responsibili- might have decided to strike a new tone. This sug- ties. gested that perhaps, just maybe, this government To meet that objective will require a renewed would show a little more balance, a little more respect, commitment to building consensus, which is why we this time around. But, sadly, the fact that we are here are here debating this amendment today. It requires a today and that we've been here all night and for many recognition by government that the success of public hours this week is because it appears that this govern- education depends on fostering a real partnership with ment has learned nothing. Sadly, this government's the people who deliver education at the local level. rigid attitude has serious consequences for parents, for Everyone in this province wants the best for our kids students and for all British Columbians. and the best for our education system. [0940] But this government is not listening to the people of Now more than ever, we need the courage to rise B.C. This government approaches education with ideo- above the petty ideological fights of the past, because logical blinders and an entrenched view that it knows public education, and the opportunities it provides, best. It doesn't help when government downloads costs transcends these divisions. The debate we're having in onto school boards and leaves them to deal with the this House today — make no mistake — is a debate fallout. It doesn't help when government deliberately about the future of public education. It's the central provokes confrontation. political, social and economic question of our time. The [0945] outcome of that wider debate will define the nature of To succeed, government must work in close part- our province in this century. nership with school boards, with parents and yes, with But that debate is diminished by a government that teachers. As the first principle of public education re- treats education as little more than a political game. newal, government must respect all partners in the Wherever I travel, I hear from parents, trustees, teach- system that educates our children. Without that re- ers and students who are becoming increasingly con- spect, without that partnership, we simply won't be cerned about the future of public education. Why? Be- able to work through the challenges we face. cause despite this government's taxpayer-funded ad- That's why we've put the amendment forward that vertising campaigns about how much it cares about we are now debating: because this side of the House our education system, despite its tireless claims about wants to solve the problem that we're facing. Sadly, I what a great job they've done, it has consistently expect that this government will pass the bill — not viewed education as a political tool to manipulate at because it's good public policy, not because it's in the every turn for their strategic gain. This government has public interest, not because it needs to or because it's an closed schools, made deep cuts to classroom resources emergency, but simply because it can. It's the only way and downloaded costs onto school boards. that this government knows how to handle difficult We're here this morning where we've been all issues: bluntly, and with little regard for the conse- night, debating the latest in the long string of legisla- quences. tive actions by this government that are now pushing The government would like us to believe that this our education system to the brink. All of this has con- legislation somehow helps fix the bargaining system, tributed to rising public concern about the state of our but there should be no doubt that this legislation education system. clearly hurts education in our province, that this legis- I believe the value British Columbians place on lation will further demoralize teachers, who have been public education is connected to very profound change targeted again and again for the past four years. It's that is underway in our society. We're witnessing in- clear that this legislation will further erode trust, that it credible change in the way our economy is structured, will increase tension and that it will make a lasting not just here in B.C. but, in fact, across our continent, agreement even harder to achieve. throughout Europe and across the world. Moreover, and perhaps more ominously, it signals The bonds of community are being challenged as that the next four years won't be all that much different our traditional industries give way to those tied to the than the first four years. British Columbians will con- revolution in information technology. Brainpower has tinue to be divided, one against another, by a govern- risen to become the main economic driver. Because of ment that governs by fiat, that chooses winners and this dramatic change, we have to focus more on what it losers, that treats some with respect and others with is we are providing our children with so that they can disdain. Without a significant shift in attitude by this cope with this new order. In the new economy the government, without this amendment passing, this skills, flexibility and ingenuity of our citizenry is the downward cycle of conflict and confrontation will con- most important thing we possess — more important tinue to eat away at the social fabric of our province. than infrastructure, more important than resources and My fear is that this government's actions this week more important than capital. are a clear signal of more conflict to come, that the gov- It's important that we think broadly about public ernment isn't willing to reach across old political divi- education in terms of the central role that it plays in sions, that this government doesn't want to build

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 697 bridges and that this government will continue to di- I rise in support of this amendment. I rise with even vide British Columbians against each other. That's been greater conviction and confidence than last night, and the experience of the last four years, and that was the that's not just because my wife delivered some fresh attitude that voters clearly said they were tired of. They clothes to me this morning. I rise with a greater confi- hoped this government had learned a lesson and had dence and conviction because I know that the people of managed to unlearn its old habits — habits that have, British Columbia are listening to this debate and that for far too long, held British Columbians apart and will they see, on this side of the House, a group of MLAs continue to hold this province back. who are committed to the ideals of public education — This is not the first time I've used these words. In not only to preserving it but building on it. This under- fact, it's a message that I've carried every single day in lines the importance of public education. this province since I became leader. What unites us For us to be here all night this way and for who must be greater than what divides us. At the end of the knows how much longer, well, this must be pretty im- day, we must remember why we're having this debate. portant — an emergency, maybe. Pretty important, yes; We must remember what's at stake. an emergency, no. This Liberal government has had I want to share with this House some letters that four years to deal with teachers. This Liberal govern- were given to me late last night on the steps of the Leg- ment has refused consistently to deal in good faith with islature — letters like the one written by a high school teachers. student, one of many who gathered last night to dem- [0955] onstrate their support for their teachers and for educa- Since 1993, 12 years ago, only one day of instruction tion. has been lost to teacher job action — the day of protest [0950] in 2002. But that doesn't fit the Liberal spin. That does- Natalie wrote that she worries about the growing n't fit it at all. Their message is that teachers are mili- number of students in her classes. She worries that tant. Yes, when I think of my elementary school teach- students can't get the help they need. She describes a ers and the teachers in my family — my grandmother, class at her school where students have to take a num- my mother, my father-in-law, my sister, my wife — ber and wait in line to be able to receive extra help. "militant" is not the first word that leaps to mind — Natalie hopes — not for her sake, because she gradu- well, maybe my wife. No. Indeed, the first words that ates in June, but for the sake of other children coming might leap to my mind might be "devotion", "selfless- after her, like her little brother — that education can be ness," "dedication" or "caring," but none of these fit the more personal again. Is that too much to ask? characterization of the B.C. Liberals. None of them fit Another student, Kayla, wrote that in her calculus the characterization of teachers we've seen from that class there aren't enough textbooks for every student in side of this aisle. her class. She wrote that some students actually have I predict that the members opposite would shift to resorted to trying to find a copy of their textbook on blaming their federation rather than the individual eBay. teachers. My devoted, selfless, dedicated and caring Nicky expressed what I heard from many. She de- relatives all support the defence of public education scribed how fortunate she was to have teachers who being mounted by the BCTF, by their professional col- cared. Nicky described the relationships she developed leagues, by them. over her 12 years in the public education system — None of this fits the reality modification of the B.C. relationships based on trust with people they'll never Liberals. I understand from where they derive these forget, because the teachers in her life were generous thoughts. They betray their true motives when they with their time, nurtured their students and respected speak of the poor. The embarrassing homeless numbers them. So many students wrote about the profound re- are characterized as worthy versus unworthy poor. spect they have for their teachers. It is the natural approach of business promoters. These were moving letters written by articulate, Just think of bank ads which portray green leather easy intelligent, informed young adults — exactly the kinds chairs as a symbol of their service. No one is surprised of citizens that we can all be proud of. All of us on both when they find themselves standing in a lineup rather sides of this House have something very important to than lounging luxuriously. That may be okay for bank learn from these young people. They have respect for ads, but for a responsible government speaking to par- their teachers, and it's my sincere hope that the gov- ents and British Columbians about the state of public ernment can learn this fundamental lesson from the services or the bailiff-like privatization of public assets, young people who came here last night with a very it's nowhere near good enough. simple and sincere message. They respect their teach- I support this amendment because it would allow ers, and they expect their government to do the same. time for the parties to work together to find a real solution. It would offer time for the B.C. Liberal govern- D. Routley: I am very moved by what we've just ment to extend a true hand of trust and respect to our heard and by the presence of students in the building teachers. That, I suspect, is not what this government is here. I speak with some trepidation because I'm very after. No, they need Bill 12 to deflect attention from the emotional about this issue, my whole family being real problem, the truly militant player — the B.C. Lib- teachers. eral government which has mounted an attack on pub-

698 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 lic education that threatens the very foundations of that In 1998 the teachers of this province paid for im- fine institution. provements for students, our children. They gave up The members opposite have only one approach. It's salary demands to acquire improvements in our class- a gung-ho mentality that is a great strength in business rooms. Whole generations of B.C. students benefited but a great threat to public education. Think of that from the smaller classes and improved supports nego- green leather armchair, and you can see the Education tiated and paid for by their teachers. That is, until the Minister trumpeting accountability contract data, ad- B.C. Liberal government came to town. Now our kids vertising incremental gains in literacy and numeracy pay for what the Liberals have taken from their class- scores — scores no more real than that green leather rooms. They pay for B.C. Liberal payoffs to their corpo- armchair. rate backers. In our school district we measure our students — in But that fits with the plan, doesn't it? Teachers who grades six and seven, 35 or 40 of them at a time. Unfor- paid for the improvements that our children used to tunately, there are that many. Such a small number enjoy now see themselves spun as a threat to those bears no statistical relevance. We can see that the vari- same students — teachers who have given and sacri- ance of that statistic is far greater than the numbers that ficed for our children and our communities. What are counted as goals by this government — scores no threat? Aside from one day of protest in 2002, as I men- more real than that leather armchair, scores that doom tioned, not a single day of instruction has been lost to our public education to continued underfunding. job action by teachers. What emergency? Why are we Another admirable business trait is that in business here debating this ridiculous and unjust bill to pure we might say: "Every bump needs to be a boost. Every exhaustion? problem needs to be an opportunity." A slight decline We are here because this Liberal government must in enrolment — perhaps 3 percent — is an opportunity be portrayed as the stern parent and teachers and pub- to close schools in small communities, to lay off teach- lic education as the undisciplined child. This must be ers at a rate three times greater than the rate of enrol- done to cover up the devastation wrought by the B.C. ment decline, to lay off, to fire, 17½ percent of our spe- Liberals on public services in general — a theological cial needs teachers, to be rid of 23 percent of our commitment to privatization. teacher-librarians. Quite an opportunity. In the recent Wright report…. The teachers partici- [1000] pated in that process with goodwill. Imagine how dis- The worst parallel to their business-only thinking mayed they were at the end of the process to see that allows them to think of our children and their learning the Wright report contained 14 of the employer's rec- as a product — a product to be marketed; a product to ommendations and not a single recommendation from be watered down when more profit is needed, when teachers. more savings need to be exacted from public services The B.C. Liberals are bent on privatization, but to pay for exorbitant tax giveaways to people who least working people know that teachers are there for our need them; a product to be marketed overseas; a prod- children. Working people like me know that properly uct to be quantified, production to be shut off and funded, basic public education delivered by our enthu- started on a whim. But our children are not widgets. siastic, devoted, professional teachers is the key to our Our special needs children can't have their services children's future. We know as working people that this turned off for two or three years at a time, only to have is a cornerstone of equity and democracy. the tap turned back on and for this government to ex- [1005] pect everyone to forget that. We know that the partners — teachers and gov- This terrible paradigm allows the B.C. Liberals to ernment — have a solemn duty to negotiate for the apply the most basic commercial principles to our chil- benefit of our children, for the health of our democ- dren: "If we can't afford it, we don't deserve it." Let racy and for improved public education. I call on the those who want small classes and classroom popula- members to support this amendment. As I have said, tions unburdened by the unmet needs of those with it is not too late. We can see that we are joined by special needs opt out, leave, go private and further teachers; we are joined by students. They're waiting starve the public system — now cynically funded on a for us, as a House, to address their needs, to extend a per-student basis. Mr. Speaker, the dominos are lined hand of trust, to extend a hand of respect to the peo- up against public education, and I'm proud to say that I ple who serve our communities. But I suspect that stand with our teachers who are willing to stand up won't happen. and defend this fine system. I am a school trustee, and I am very dismayed by Even my basic grasp of mathematics will allow me what I see. I sit in a boardroom and cast a dissenting no to work my way through this equation. How can this vote to cuts to special needs students. I know, in cast- equation be that fewer students — less than 3 percent, ing that vote — and I remind the other trustees who mind you — should equal fewer services? Same fund- are casting a yes vote for those cuts, afraid perhaps that ing or more. Fewer students. Fewer teachers. Think if they voted no, they might be fired by a Liberal gov- again of that green leather armchair. Think again of ernment that threatens school boards…. I know as I sit reality modification. Think again of what really lies there, and I know that they know, that we are affecting behind that advertising scheme. the lives of hundreds of our most needy students, hun-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 699 dreds of our most vulnerable students, and yet those tion and health, that fails our most vulnerable students, votes pass. that fails our parents…. Finally has come a time when What makes it most cynical is that later in the this B.C. Liberal government can't justify this act based school year, as the effects of these cuts are felt, and we on a crisis they have created. see once in a while through the doors of our public What are they doing? They are pushing our teach- board meetings…. A disabled child will be wheeled ers to the wall. They are pushing public services to the through that door, and the parents will appeal to the wall. Whoever stands up in defence of those services…. school board for service for that child. We watch those Well, that is who the finger will be pointed at: "Those self-same trustees, who voted for the cuts, and admin- people are the problem." istrators, who proposed them, rush to that child. They We do have a solemn duty to our children and to promise to solve that child's problem. Lo and behold, public education. On May 17 British Columbians at- three or four days later in the newspaper, it's reported tempted to send a message to the B.C. Liberal govern- that that student's problem is solved. But that does ment. They attempted to wake up the B.C. Liberal gov- nothing for the bigger problem. The bigger problem is ernment. They attempted to tap it on the shoulder and underfunding of education by the B.C. Liberal gov- say: "Listen, we've had enough of this confrontation. ernment. We've had enough of vilifying those who serve our Whether it's an unfunded teacher increase man- communities. We've had enough of setting worker dated by the B.C. Liberal government but unfunded, against employer." whether it's soaring fuel costs — especially for rural Progressive people know that we all sit in one life- school districts that rely heavily on busing or northern boat together. We may pull different oars, but we need school districts that rely crucially on heat for their to pull them together. We need to pull them together buildings — or whether it's 50-percent MSP premium for the benefit of our children and even for the benefit increases or a GAAP accounting system that comes to of those corporations that advertise green-leather us unfunded, it costs our relatively medium-sized lounge chairs because, in the end, we're all in this to- school district $5 million. gether. The worst failing would be if we were to con- All of those costs come straight out of the class- tinue to show our kids and these students that we can't rooms of our children. Remember that cynical formula solve our problems progressively, that we can't sit for funding, the per-student funding formula. So as we down across the table and find the smallest point of watch people who opt for the green-leather armchair, consensus. who opt out of the public system and take their chil- I was a school board employee. I spent many hours dren to the nearest private school for a smaller class walking through schools. As I went, I would notice size or a classroom unburdened by those unmet needs little signs on the walls, little slogans meant to boost of the special needs students, we see each one of them our children's independence and encourage them with take their entire funding envelope with them. their social responsibility. They were interesting slo- They take with them that heating bill; they take gans: "Respect others." "Good solutions come from a with them the fuel for the bus; they take with them the variety of points of view." custodians' pay. They take with them the administra- Those are the kinds of messages that we send to our tive bill, and I will remind you that that is the one em- children in those hallways and in those classrooms, but ployee-related bill that is increasing in our school dis- when they walk down the steps of the school and out — trict and rapidly, I might say. onto the street, they see us. They see the B.C. Liberal [1010] government that cannot respect teachers to the point But those costs don't go away. If there are too-few where they can sit across a table and decently negotiate students, we don't have to turn the heat down. We the conditions of work, wages and the conditions that can't do that. The bus might be a little lighter, but I those students learn in. It is a shameful performance by doubt it'll save much. a government that is focused solely on performance. The administrators won't be laid off. All of those costs When we judge performance, we need to be sure come out of our classroom, and that is why when we that we are judging fairly. We need to be sure that we lose under 3 percent of our students provincially but judge schools in, perhaps, North Vancouver fairly 7½ percent of our teachers, 17½ percent of our special when compared to schools in northern British Colum- needs teachers and 23 percent of our teacher-librarians, bia. it is to make up the void left by the cynical funding [1015] formula of the B.C. Liberal government. Finally, a time has come, though, where we don't Several years ago and many more pounds ago, I have this engineered crisis that the tax giveaway cre- was a bicycle racer. ated. The Liberal government reports a large surplus and projects an even larger one for next year. B. Simpson: Many less pounds. In the public eye, I would say that this B.C. Liberal government stands elbow to elbow with corporations D. Routley: Yes. like Telus, perhaps — a hugely profitable company that We used to have a phrase, and that phrase is: still needs to take from its employees — a government "Don't judge my climbing after you put rocks in my in surplus that refuses to deal with the needs of educa- pockets." Unfortunately, that is exactly what the B.C.

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Liberal government has done. First they have disabled they will see dedication. They will see proud people public education, and now they'll judge it. serving each other. For me, Mr. Speaker…. When I got up here, I Or perhaps they might make a more current deci- apologized for an overly emotional response to all of sion. They might take a look at a more current topic. this. I think I'm past that point. But I can't stand here as They might see that teachers are being treated without MLA elected to represent my community, I can't stand respect, that teachers are being vilified, that teachers here as a school trustee charged with defending the are being pointed to as the source of the problem. That School Act — public education, the conditions of learn- would make them doubly unlikely to be teachers, and ing for my students in my school district — and watch that seriously would be a tragedy, because I'm proud this B.C. Liberal government deflect the attention of of my mom's service, I'm proud of my sister's service, British Columbians from the real threat to public edu- and I'm so proud of my wife's service. cation. The real threat to public education in this prov- It would warm my heart to hear from my daugh- ince is B.C. Liberal government underfunding and the ters that they want to become teachers, but I haven't privatization agenda. heard it yet. I suspect why I haven't heard it, but as I It won't do any good for the B.C. Liberals to hold said, it's not too late for them. It's not too late for my up a mirror to teachers when they say: "Who's respon- daughters, for these students or for teachers. It's not too sible for this?" It won't do any good for them to tell late for the B.C. Liberal government to do the right these students that we've put $150 million more into thing: step back, negotiate decent classroom conditions, education when they know that they have fewer teach- negotiate a decent wage for our teachers and defend ers, that they can't fit into the classroom and that the public education in the public interest, because it is the school is dirtier than it used to be. Perhaps the sugges- public to whom they owe their greatest loyalty. tion, cynical as it sounds coming from the other side — I can hear it now — is that they ought to go down the S. Simpson: It's a pleasure for me to join this dis- road and pay for a different solution. Well, that's not cussion here and to have the opportunity to make some what we want. comments, and I'm very pleased. The first thing I want Ordinary British Columbians understand that pub- to note is… I want to join the comments of my leader in lic education is the cornerstone of equality, of equity of very much thanking all the staff that work in this place, opportunity for their children. British Columbians both in the chamber and throughout the precinct, for know that there's no greater stake in the future of our the superb service that they've given us during this province than public education. British Columbians long period. It's exceptional. It's beyond the call, and won't be deflected. Their attention won't be deflected we certainly owe them a great debt of gratitude for all from the true source of threat to their schools and their of the effort that they've made on our behalf. classrooms. On May 17 British Columbians cried out I also want to acknowledge…. I feel particularly for a different solution. They've given this government heartened by this when I look up into the gallery and another chance, a chance that is being squandered as see all the people in the gallery, particularly all the stu- they tell teachers: "We don't want to talk to you. We'll dents and the young people. It just shows how impor- negotiate with you, but we won't talk about working tant this discussion is — that all of these people saw fit conditions. We won't talk about wages." So what's left to come here to be part of this, to bear witness to what to talk about? Perhaps green leather lounge chairs? we're doing today, because they know it's important. It's embarrassing, as a member of this Legislature, So I'm very, very pleased, and I thank you for being to be debating a bill like Bill 12. It's embarrassing to be here. It helps me to do my job. Having you here helps facing a government that has only one tool, a hammer all the members to do their jobs. Thank you very much. that sees every problem as a nail; a government for The one comment I was going to say was that I was whom there is only one solution, a solution of force pleased to have the opportunity to join this debate, but over compromise, of coercion over cooperation. British then I thought about it. I thought, you know, this isn't Columbians expect more. The students who walk really a debate. A debate suggests that there are going down those hallways I talked about, they certainly ex- to be two sides in this discussion and that we are going pect more. I suspect they'd be laughing at us now if to engage in this discussion. Well, there hasn't been they weren't crying. much engagement over the last number of hours. What It's not too late for this government to withdraw we've seen on this side is member after member stand- Bill 12. It's not too late for this government to step back ing in their places and speaking to the important issues from the precipice with our teachers. It's not too late for of education — of children and their futures, of parents this government to be respectful of British Columbians. and of educators. On that side we have seen silence. It's not too late. We have heard nothing from that side during this de- [1020] bate, and it's disappointing to me. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I'll remind you of my family's Now, I can only assume that it comes from one of commitment to education, and I'll say that my two two reasons. In my time here — and prior to being daughters are either doubly likely to be teachers or here, watching this government over the last four years doubly unlikely. I tell you, if they look to their mother, — I've seen that there are a couple of different kinds of their aunt, their grandmother or their grandpa, they members on that side of the House. I suspect that re- will definitely become teachers. They will see devotion; flects what's going on here today.

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[1025] Mr. Speaker: Member, could you make sure that What we have, of course, is what I would call the you direct all your comments through the chair. ideologues on that side of the House. Those are the members who I think aren't much concerned about S. Simpson: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker. engaging in this debate. They've got their marching orders. They have their blinkers on and they will Hon. M. Coell: Especially the lemming stuff. charge ahead. They will charge ahead regardless of what happens to our teachers, to our kids or to our S. Simpson: I respect the comments, and I'd like to schools, because they have their marching orders, say that the lemmings over on that side will end up and that's all that matters. What comes out of that going off the cliff — probably around 2009, with a little wing of the Legislature, they take that direction and luck. they charge forward. I expect nothing more from What I would like to do, as I speak today, is talk a them. little bit about the people in my constituency who con- Then, of course, we have what I would like to call tacted me last night. I received phone calls, I received the more thoughtful members on that side of the e-mails, and all of them said pretty much the same House. There certainly are some of those members who thing. They all said they were very proud of what was are more thoughtful. I thought to myself: how come going on in this House. They all said they were very those members aren't engaging in this debate? How supportive of this side, that we were defending educa- come they're not engaging in this debate? Then I got to tion, teachers, parents and students. They talked about thinking. I suspect the reason they're not engaging in the importance of teachers. They talked about how this debate is that they're just feeling a little bit sheep- deserving teachers are of our respect and our support. ish. The other thing they talked about was how disap- They know you can't defend the indefensible. Every pointed they are with this government. They talked one of those members over there who thinks about about the government's intransigence. They talked things knows full well that this piece of legislation is about this scheme that the government's cooked up to bad legislation. It's unnecessary legislation, and it will try to ram through legislation by exhaustion. They hurt British Columbians from our youngest to our old- talked about the manipulation of the rules to be able to est. It will create conflict in this province that is unnec- get this through without having the courage to use the essary, and it will not accomplish the objectives. appropriate standing orders and see whether this really So I suspect those more thoughtful members over did qualify as an emergency. They talked about, sim- there are just desperate for whenever this will end. It's ply, how disappointed and how discouraged they painful, because they know in their heart of hearts that were. they should be voting with us. They know they want to vote with us, but they won't pay the price. They won't [1030] vote their conscience. They're prepared to be humble and sheepish about this. [S. Hammell in the chair.] There was one member on that side who a little bit earlier in the debate — and I will acknowledge this, the The interesting thing about all of those people that I member for Peace River South — did stand in his place spoke to, or all those e-mails I received, is that not one and engage in this debate. He demonstrated, I believe, of them was a teacher. Every one of them was a parent. the courage of his convictions. He spoke about what he You know what they said? Every one of them said the thought was important. One of the things I seem to same thing to me. They said: "We are parents. We have recollect that member talking about was how impor- our children in the school system. We want you to tant it was to have dialogue — how important it was know that we will put our trust in teachers when it for us to discuss these things, how important it was for comes to the future of our students before we'll ever us to be able to sort this out and how he hoped the put our trust in this Liberal government." teachers would do that, and that he hoped we could do In this House we've heard about respect many this. Well, what I would say to the members on the times in this debate. More specifically, we've heard other side is that they should take the advice of their about the lack of respect for teachers that has been colleague. demonstrated by this government. We've heard about If they really think this piece of legislation is impor- the cynical political strategy by a tired government that tant; if, as the Government House Leader said when he lacks vision, by a government that's blinded by a nar- stood in his place last night to tell us about the matters row ideology. before the Labour Board, where he said: "I know this is We've seen a government directing its bargaining very important, and I know it's fundamental legisla- agent, BCPSEA, to go to the table with no capacity to tion…." Isn't it a bit surprising that in important, fun- bargain — to go to the table with no capacity to discuss damental legislation that side's silent. They don't have working conditions; no capacity to discuss wages; and the courage of their convictions to speak to this legisla- sadly, no capacity to discuss learning conditions. Going tion. They don't have the courage to stand up and say to the table with no willingness or ability to try to ad- why they're voting for this. The lemmings will march dress the challenges of class size in ways that meet the off the cliff, and we'll see you go. needs of children and allow teachers to do their job.

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Rather than committing itself to reaching out in a plified by the Premier when four days before the last meaningful and creative way that is both innovative election…. What did he do when he was worried that and seeks to solve problems, they've squandered an he just might lose the election, when he was worried opportunity, and that was confirmed by Mr. Connolly that he desperately needed a few extra votes? In a most in his report. What Mr. Connolly said when he talked cynical, cynical political move, he desperately called about the position of the B.C. Public School Employers press conferences and made every effort to pit teachers Association is: "BCPSEA expressed the requirement to against parents — desperate for votes, no consequence, stay within the mandate it was given and to explore a no consideration at all of what this meant for the future process to deal with structural issues in preparation for in education. It was just simply a matter of hanging the next round of bargaining." onto a few votes, hanging onto a few seats. Nothing The BCPSEA proposed to settle a collective agree- else was of consequence — using students as pawns in ment with a term of two years, with zero percent wage a crass political manipulation that is about political increases. No room to talk on the matter of money at gain with no respect for the educational impacts and all. But that's not all they said. "BCPSEA communicated consequences. to me," Mr. Connolly said, "that they believe proposals Of course, the government, to their credit — they're dealing with class size and composition are ultra vires not exclusive; they don't simply blame teachers — can and cannot be bargained." So we can't even talk about find all kinds of other people to blame for the difficul- those things. However, of course, they indicated an ties in education. They blame school districts. This is interest to discuss matters that were important to them one of the remarkable strategies that this government like dispute resolution and enforcement and remedies has adopted, and they've done it in education; they've to provisions within the School Act. done it in a whole range of areas. They have a situation So they said: "Let's talk about the things we want to where they essentially take a body that is at arm's talk about," but all of those things that are important to length from them, but a body that is reliant on them for teachers, to parents and, ultimately, to students — all their resources, and what do they do? They give none of that can be talked about. Isn't it a surprise that them not enough resources to be able to do the job the result of that is that we had 35 meetings without they're mandated to do, and then they blame them much discussion, because the employer's agent — you, when the job isn't done. That's how the government the employer — couldn't talk about anything? works. As I said before, rather than committing itself to They do it in health care. They do it in education. reaching out in a meaningful and creative way, the Pretty much everywhere they tread, they do it, with government, through their bargaining agent, created a one exception. The one place they're very effective and situation where they couldn't solve problems and successful is with corporate tax policy. They do a very where they squandered another opportunity — the good job on corporate tax policy for the people in- way this government squanders many opportunities. volved there. They squandered the opportunity to be creative. The decision of the Minister of Education…. This is They squandered the opportunity to be innovative and an example that I'd like to give you. Here's an example progressive, because their consistent conduct since of the conduct of this government, and it revolves 2001 regarding education and teachers has demon- around class size, which is a very important issue in strated a complete inability to develop and maintain a the discussion we've been having: the decision of the relationship of trust, to show any respect for teachers at Minister of Education earlier this year, not very long all and, frankly, as a government, to be honest with the ago, to require school boards to report class size annu- educators of this province about the matters that count. ally to Victoria. Well, this is fine, but to make the deci- Teachers — for very good reason, based on the con- sion that they must report class size when this gov- tinual conduct of this government — simply cannot ernment does absolutely nothing to address the issues trust this government. They can't trust them to live up of deteriorating classroom learning conditions in B.C. is to their commitments or to respect teachers' contribu- outrageous. It's like saying: "We know the car is head- tions to British Columbia. The government has con- ing off the cliff, so what we want you to do is tell us as ducted themselves no better than the worst schoolyard it goes off the cliff, but we're going to do nothing to bully. There can be no meaningful relationships when stop it from happening." the dominant party in a discussion has no meaningful The minister ignored the real issues of class size respect for the other parties in that discussion. and its key associated components. Those are critical [1035] issues, and they're a big part of this discussion we're The government is the dominant party. They are having. They are issues around class composition. the ones who ultimately control things. They will de- What is the makeup of those classes? They are ques- cide the legislation. As our leader said, it's true that at tions around the distinct learning needs of particular some point you will pass this legislation. The legisla- students in each classroom. tion will be passed by this government, and they'll pass In Vancouver the best estimate right now is we it with no regard for the consequences and no mean- probably have in our district somewhere between ingful discussion with the parties involved. 17,000 to 20,000 students who in some way, shape or This was best exemplified by the Premier, and it form have a special need. They have consequences, was exemplified just before the election. It was exem- bigger challenges and different challenges than other

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 703 kids in the district. That district — the district where I So that's part of the challenge. We have a wide come from — is having huge challenges in dealing range of students with learning difficulties that require with those questions. additional support and assistance. They're not getting [1040] that support. These are real challenges that need to be I know the school that my daughter goes to, Van addressed, challenges that the minister has offered no Tech High School, is a high school that has faced huge solutions or support for and challenges that this piece pressures. I think they have there about 280 kids who of legislation will simply make worse. are deemed to have specific special needs, and I believe That's why the amendment moved by this side they have three staff to help the teachers for those 280 makes perfect sense, because there is time to stop this kids. They have three specialists in the school to help disaster before it happens, and you just have to step up the teachers. It doesn't work. on that side. The members have to step up, and they We've heard a lot on this side about reduced en- can do that. rolment. I thought that was a pretty important ques- It's interesting, on the discussion around class size, tion, so I decided that I would find out what the situa- that there's been a gradual but consistent erosion of tion is in my daughter's school. I talked to the principal learning conditions in classrooms across B.C. since at the school, and I asked him what was happening 2002. We know that. Even the B.C. School Trustees over the last couple of years with enrolment and its Association sought clarification from the minister for relationship to faculty. They're still sorting out the this demand that she made about information on class numbers for this year. They're still getting adjusted, so size without offering one iota of support to deal with I asked him about last year's numbers. He said that last the issues. year the school, which has about 1,740 kids in it…. We have a situation where, rather than trying to They reduced their enrolment by 17 kids last year. help meet the challenges of class size and learning con- Their faculty were reduced from 102 FTEs to 96 FTEs. ditions, the minister followed the time-honoured B.C. So they lost the equivalent of six full-time teachers, and Liberal tradition of "Don't solve the problem, but buy they lost 17 students. some advertising and blame the other guy." When the The principal told me that, because of the extraor- minister did speak on the issue, she reflected the atti- — dinary efforts of his teachers — of their commitments tudes, I believe, of her leader which were not, in my and their acceptance of additional students into their view, respectful of the role of educators in the critical classes and to work extra hours through their own questions about what happens here. commitment — and of the innovation of the school and [1045] the principal's own good work, they could make it Every parent across this province would tell you work. They did make it work, but he told me at that that teachers need to be part of this discussion about time that there was no room. There was no latitude critical learning conditions and issues, but at this point — here for any more cuts. certainly, based on what the government has directed BCPSEA to do — there is no sense here that the

government does see fit to have teachers playing a [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] fundamental role. You would ask why teachers feel disrespected, why teachers are discouraged. Why are Well, this year my daughter was telling me…. the teachers angry, and why don't the teachers trust When I asked her, after she started into school, how this government to treat them fairly? Well, it's because things were in school, she told me about the classes the conduct of this government has warranted exactly where there aren't enough desks for the kids. She told that response from teachers. me about the classes that are supposed to have 26 to 27 A 25-year teacher in Vancouver sent us some of kids in them and have 38 kids in them. She told me that their thoughts about how they feel. The teacher said: it's creating all kinds of pressure. She told me about the "Teacher morale is suffering because of increased pressures for quality textbooks that she's having in workload. Teachers are in deep conflict and thereby grade nine. stressed. They feel it's impossible to properly serve the I've talked to the people at the school, and they're students because of too many special needs students working very hard to work through this and deal with and a lack of support for them. On top of all this, we these issues. They're doing the best they can, but it's of have been saddled with a ridiculous provincial exam no thanks to the government. The government is not for grade tens. Who needs the extra stress?" helping them to accomplish these objectives at all. Another teacher said: "Classload numbers. I do So the problem here is that there's nothing offered. have a student who I believe requires assessment, but I The Minister of Education has offered nothing of sub- was told that if I brought them to a school-based team, stance for students with special needs, nothing of sub- nothing would be done this year because we have too stance for ESL students. We have students, I know, in many grade sevens that need assessments before going my community…. Forty percent of my constituency is to high school. So she only receives two periods of Chinese-speaking. We have ESL there, but of course, support a week and no other support. I'm not meeting we know we have a capped ESL program at five years her needs." for immigrants. Well, lots of those folks need more Another teacher said: "Class composition" — this is than that, and they're not able to get that. a 30-year teacher — "and student numbers have cre-

704 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 ated a dangerous environment where injuries occur the provincial government to take responsibility for es- and curriculum is abandoned on fear of injuries. Kids tablishing a new and respectful bargaining process. are frustrated. I'm paranoid. We're not having fun, and Bill 12 isn't what they had in mind when they talked this is supposed to be PE." about a new and respectful bargaining process. The last one. This is a teacher who's been in the The last letter that I want to read is from the inner- system for more than 30 years, and they didn't have a city parents in Greater Vancouver. This is a letter that lot to say. They had one sentence to say, and here's was addressed to the Premier, the Minister of Educa- what they said: "The government has systematically tion and the Minister of Labour. destroyed public education." We are parents, students and community members who That's how the teachers feel. That's their response. share a strong sense of respect and admiration for the hard work and dedication that our teachers in the public You add this to the hammer of Bill 12, and now the school system demonstrate on a daily basis. We are writ- actions of the government getting a ruling by the la- ing to you to express our disappointment in the actions bour board that can make our teachers criminals, and of your government with respect to teachers. We appre- no one can wonder why or how the environment be- ciate that you believe you are putting children first in tween teachers and governments has become so poi- education, but as parents who have seen the direct effects soned. It's pretty obvious how it became poisoned. of your actions in our public schools, we would respect- So what do we do now? What do we do now to fully disagree. Under your administration, the situation in schools has gotten worse, not better. deal with the government's conduct, their attempts to turn parents against teachers? Well, I'll tell you, I've talked to an awful lot of parents in the last few days, B. Ralston: I rise to support this motion. This mo- and it's not working. Parents are with their teachers; tion is proposed because there is still an opportunity to parents are supporting their teachers. Parents believe let the collective bargaining process work. Things have that teachers are doing a good job, and they're happy, come to a point of crisis, but given the situation, which — — and they stand with their teachers. as in many other labour relations matters is fluid What I'd like to do is read a couple of letters. The in the opinion of those on this side of the House, there is an opportunity to engage in collective bargaining. first one is from a parent who lives in Vancouver: As a parent and an active parent advisory council mem- The bill itself would end collective bargaining for ber I'm sickened by the relentless campaign underway to this term of the collective agreement. It simply extends demonize teachers who speak up about education cuts the collective agreement for another nine months with- due to chronic provincial underfunding. Since 1999 I've out any bargaining, without a wage increase, without watched our school lose special ed teachers, playground any discussion on class size and class composition. supervisors, ESL services, library time, books and the In a parallel process the government has appointed most basic supplies. Meanwhile, class sizes have grown. Mr. Ready as an industrial inquiry commissioner. My son is in a grade five class of 32, mostly ESL stu- There is some reason for optimism, given that Mr. dents and several with special needs. Yes, enrolment numbers are down, and funding was frozen in 2002, then Ready has been appointed. But this bill and the work later increased slightly, but new costs have far out- that Mr. Ready is about to do don't require the passage stripped new dollars since the B.C. Liberals legislated a of this bill. The process that he has embarked upon is teacher salary increase in 2002 and off-loaded other new completely separate from this bill and, indeed, could costs. Now our teachers, the ones who work hardest to have been started at any point. The government could minimize the impact of underfunding on our kids, are have chosen, and perhaps should have chosen, to in- being vilified for telling it like it is. Talk about shooting volve an industrial inquiry commissioner well back in the messenger. this process, and perhaps we would not have come to [1050] this point. A letter from an organization called the British Co- The government sincerely believed that the bar- lumbia Society for Public Education, which is made up gaining relationship was broken. This avenue of ap- primarily of parents who do research and analysis on pointing an industrial inquiry commissioner to exam- education in our province. They sent this letter on Oc- ine the bargaining process and propose a new method tober 6, 2005. They made this statement regarding the for resolving these collective agreements between the action that's going on now: teachers and the government could have been under- The B.C. Society for Public Education regrets the recent taken long ago. Given that Mr. Ready is now involved course of events that has once again polarized and politicized public education. We note that in over ten years and given his record…. He will be familiar to many there has not been a successfully negotiated teachers' members of the public over the last 25 or 30 years as a contract in B.C. This history is now repeating itself. The very distinguished mediator, arbitrator and negotiator process is not broken. It has never worked. — most recently, perhaps, in the trucking dispute on Canada's important history of providing quality the Vancouver waterfront and a number of other col- universal public education contributes to the strength of lective agreements. He's, in fact, probably indispensa- our unique and diverse society. We value the work of ble to the industrial relations system of the province. B.C. teachers and regret that they feel compelled to take [1055] this current job action. The B.C. Society for Public Educa- tion hopes this situation is resolved in a way that con- There is cause for optimism in the sense that Mr. tributes to a positive environment and positive morale Ready will be able to examine those questions — I'm for both students and teachers in classrooms. We call on sure he has the respect of the parties — and that pro-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 705 cess could go forward. So the passage of this bill now is the elders of their tribe over there — like the member not necessary and in fact will inflame and damage the for Comox Valley, the member for Peace River North, possibility that Mr. Ready's appointment offers. It is for and the member for Kamloops — and ask them about that reason that this side of the House proposes that that. W.A.C. Bennett wasn't afraid of taking a second this bill simply be stopped in its tracks for a period of look. It was a strength of leadership to say: "Maybe we time to see if the situation can be resolved without re- got it wrong. Maybe this is not the way to go. The pub- sorting to this legislative hammer. lic has weighed in on this issue. I'm listening, and I'm I'm sure that the government has engaged in the ready to change." passage of this bill out of a sense of some political cal- [1100] culation. Doubtless, the government considers that In this circumstance, in this very fluid labour rela- taking this approach will reap them some political ad- tions context, in my view, there would be no shame, no vantage. But a recent poll — a poll published yesterday reflection on the political leadership of the members and reported on News 1130 radio — says that over half opposite. Indeed, it would add to their claim of politi- the people, when they were asked who they supported, cal leadership on this issue if they were to take a sec- support the teachers. So the government is not, even in ond look. its own cynical political terms, winning the public rela- I urge the members opposite when they go back tions war at all. Even more reason for them to recon- into their caucus, maybe tomorrow or Sunday — I sider their position and withdraw this bill. don't know how long we're going to be here, but we The public is on to the government, in my view. seem to have only just got started — and you have This poll also asked a question about class size, and those discussions and you're wondering, you're shak- what the news report here says is that the question of ing your head at the Whip, or at Madam Speaker or at class size was seen as very important: 80 percent feel it the members of cabinet as to just why we are all here, has an impact on the quality of education. The public perhaps that discussion might take place. Maybe it is understands that the issue of class size is not simply an time to take a second look. It is possible. I will concede academic issue that is of narrow concern to the repre- that it is possible for this government to change course. sentatives of teachers rather than to parents, children, I give the example…. I'm glad the Minister of Abo- the public and indeed to society as a whole. riginal Relations and Reconciliation is in the House, I will speak further about the impact of class size because my comments…. upon educational achievement, because it is supported by substantial academic studies throughout North Deputy Speaker: Member, we don't make refer- America and indeed throughout the world. It's a well- ences to member's presence or absence in the chamber. known fact, so that point has been grasped by the public, in my view, and the public isn't fooled by the ap- B. Ralston: Well, I'm afraid he's here, Madam proach that the government's taking in refusing to deal Speaker. with the teachers on this very, very important issue. It In any event, the Liberal Party in opposition, under isn't simply an issue about the working conditions of the leadership of Mr. Campbell — now Premier Camp- teachers, making life easier for teachers, as a cynical bell — and the former Attorney General, vigorously view might take it. It's about improving educational opposed the implementation of the Nisga'a agreement. opportunity and educational achievement for the chil- In opposition, they took nearly three months of every dren of this province. That's why the teachers are so procedural tactic to oppose the passage of that bill. The exercised about the issue of class size and class compo- Premier and the then Attorney General in opposition sition. commenced a legal action in the B.C. Supreme Court, There are members on the other side of the House arguing that the province did not have the jurisdiction whose political roots rest in the Social Credit Party, a to pass the legislation that the government of the day venerable political institution that no longer exists, ex- proposed to pass. That litigation was only abandoned cept perhaps in the minds of a few. I refer to the member upon the election of the Premier and the Attorney Gen- for Comox Valley, the member for Peace River North eral to government. and the member for Kamloops, all of whom started out After the election the government promulgated a their political careers in the Social Credit Party. The referendum on aboriginal questions, which was leader of the party — perhaps the best-known leader, roundly condemned by all aboriginal groups in the W.A.C. Bennett, the Premier of the province for many province and was regarded universally as a very divi- years, from 1952 to 1972 — had an expression when he sive referendum on that question. It inflamed the situa- felt that mounting public opinion had weighed in on an tion. What has taken place recently in the Speech from issue of public policy and it was time to re-examine the the Throne, with the support of members not only on government's assumptions about proceeding with the that side of the House but on this side of the House, is implementation of a certain policy. that the government has entered into a new relationship in the matter of aboriginal affairs. I submit that [S. Hawkins in the chair.] while the analogies are not perfect, given that the Min- istry of Aboriginal Affairs is now entitled Aboriginal He called it taking a second look, and what I would Affairs and Reconciliation, it's open to the government recommend to the government is they look to some of to rename the Ministry of Education the Ministry of

706 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005

Education and Reconciliation, because that's what's path, unfortunately, was not taken. The report of Mr. required. It may be an example that's not perfect by Connolly, the Associate Deputy Minister of Labour, analogy, but that's what's required. chronicles the refusal of the government to give those A change of heart is required here, and the gov- instructions to their negotiators. It really is simply a ernment has to lead on this particular issue. The bar- legal fiction to suppose that there's an independent gaining relationship could be altered. Mr. Ready offers employers' association that is somehow thinking on its that alternative and that opportunity, so I would be- own on major issues and not being simply directed by seech the members on the other side to consider ending the government. What we're really talking about is this bill in its tracks and taking the opportunity pro- negotiations between the B.C. Teachers Federation, vided by Mr. Ready. Take some leadership and begin representatives of the teachers, and the government. the process of reconciliation by meaningful discus- That opportunity was available to discuss class size. sions. The representatives of the teachers are open, Although the Minister of Education repeatedly says — according to the report I've received just today, to that and it's a constant refrain on the other side of the discussion. So the opportunity is there. This situation House — that they took the issue of class size with could be improved, rather than worsened by the pas- such seriousness that they stripped it from the collec- sage of this bill. tive agreements and put it into a statute, therefore leav- Ultimately, if this bill does pass, the situation will ing the impression, perhaps, with the linguistically not get better. The situation will get worse. That's not unwary that putting it in a statute gave it some greater what anyone on this side of the House wants. I'm sure, importance and the effect of placing it in the statute upon reflection, it's not what anyone on the other side meant that it was more important or the result was of the House wants. It's not what the public wants, it's better. Indeed, no such result took place. not what parents want, it's not what students want, What happened was that after 2002 and 2003, when and it's not what teachers want. This opportunity the ability of teachers to enforce class size through the should be examined, seized, taken and proceeded with, mechanism of the collective agreement was taken with dispatch. The way to do that is by agreeing to this away, class sizes began to increase. Under the pressure motion here, letting everyone go home rather than of funding cuts and downloading to the school boards, spending tonight, tomorrow night and Sunday night the average class size began to increase. here in this chamber debating this particular bill. There were a number of attempts by the govern- [1105] ment to paint a rosier picture of that situation than was I spoke earlier about the importance of class size as in fact real. But the long-term effect of taking the issue a factor in academic achievement, and one of the very of class size and class composition out of the collective significant frustrations on the teachers' side of the bar- agreement and putting it into statute has not meant the gaining has been a complete inability to discuss that improvement — in other words, the reduction — of issue at the bargaining table. The mandate that was class size. It has meant the increase of class size and has given to the negotiator did not include discussions of given school boards no choice, given their budgetary class size and class composition. That is because those restraints, but to let class size increase, particularly in issues, which were formerly in the collective agree- the critical elementary school years where the research ment, were taken from the collective agreement by would show that it's of the greatest importance. legislation in 2002 and 2003, as many of my colleagues [1110] on this side of the House have set out. I want to talk now a little bit about the benefits of In fact, that issue was of paramount importance to lower class size. As I said at the outset, this issue comes representatives of teachers when they came to the ses- up and is sometimes viewed as a somewhat arcane sions that the Minister of Labour refers to, and they issue without a lot of direct relevance to the process of were simply rebuffed in their efforts to deal with that education. But research over many years has firmly issue. There were creative ways to deal with the issue established that lower class size is positively related because, although technically speaking it does not fall with educational achievement. In other words, the within the jurisdiction, it no longer was an issue that fewer children in the class, the better the academic re- could be dealt with at the bargaining table, strictly sults in the long run. speaking. The most significant project that's dealt with…. Labour relations and negotiations are a very flexi- There's some debate about this, but no reputable re- ble instrument with skilled negotiators. It's possible to search, I would suggest, that disagrees with this fun- devise a way to deal with those issues. Indeed, propos- damental proposition. Perhaps the best-regarded study als were made to deal with those issues at a separate — and by best-regarded, I mean the academic study table linked to the bargaining process so that, while with the most integrity; the most research, range, resil- formally the issues were not being discussed as part of ience and in-depth consideration of the topic…. They the collective agreement on the mandate, informally call it a longitudinal study because that means it takes they could be discussed directly with the government. some time. It simply doesn't take a snapshot of class- Those proposals were made, I understand, repeatedly. rooms in any one year but follows students for a num- There was a mechanism available to a creative ne- ber of years. gotiator and a government with the will to attempt to That particular study is called the STAR project, settle this matter, which could have been taken. That and it took place in Tennessee. Now, Tennessee is not

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 707 known as a particularly strong bastion of social democ- maybe unfairly — I don't know — as one of the more racy, I wouldn't think, although one presidential can- progressive jurisdictions in the United States. Tennes- didate, Al Gore, did emanate from Nashville. They see allocated funds, as a result of this, to reduce the have not a bad hockey team in the Nashville Predators teacher-student ratio in all kindergarten-to-grade-three some years, when hockey is on. classes for school systems located in counties with the This is a study in a state where the legislators there lowest per-capita incomes. The school finance plan set out to find, in a serious research project, what the includes incentives for school systems to reduce class effects were. Given the importance of this result, I think sizes to 20 or fewer students. it's worth dwelling a little bit upon the methodology just This study has entered into the literature across the because, in order to be confident in the results, one has United States and become a benchmark for policy- to examine how they were arrived at. In other words, I makers in evaluating their own programs. In addition, want to support what I say with some evidence. this study, which took place some years ago — in the late Judging from some of the speeches I hear on the other '80s…. There have been efforts in the later '90s to follow side of the House…. I was asked, as a lawyer, what it's up with those students who benefited from smaller class like to speak in the House, and I said it's not that much size in the early years and examine their academic results different from speaking in court — oh, the other side and behavioural patterns in their later years of high doesn't seem to have to rely on the evidence very often. school. They looked at tenth-graders. I'm reading from a summary of a study followed up by an organization that An Hon. Member: That got the Attorney General's was tasked to follow up on the STAR project. attention. Tenth-graders who had participated in STAR small classes appear to have maintained academic achievement advan- B. Ralston: I got the Attorney General's attention tages over their peers who attended regular or regular-aid on that, Madam Speaker. STAR classes. Data from the pilot study showed that over the years students from small classes were less likely to On this particular project, the strengths of this ini- fail a grade level or be suspended than their peers who tiative should be underscored. It was a within-school were in regular or regular-aid classes. Small-class students design, so it included the difference between different were found to be making better grades in their high school settings. It tracked a large and diverse popula- school courses and to be taking more advanced courses tion of students over a four-year period. It followed than students from the other two cohorts. This enabled them from one grade to another, and it examined rural investigators to compare the academic paths taken by schools, urban schools, inner-city schools and schools STAR, small-regular and regular-class students. in suburban areas of the state. In each year of the study, There is still ongoing research on this project. Not the result was carefully examined and correlated with a only are the benefits apparent in the early years…. In number of academic achievement indicators. other words, there's an immediate result, a positive cor- What were the results? I want to quote from a relation. Students have better academic achievement in document that I've located, provided by the researchers the early years. Once they get that start in the system, the themselves — a summary of their results. At each result persists and continues to the later years. grade level, kindergarten to grade three and across all The issue of class size and class composition, when school locations, the small classes made the highest you look at this kind of data…. This is the kind of dis- scores on the standard achievement tests. They call it a cussion that should be taking place at the bargaining criterion-of-basic-skills-first test. These results were table. This should be taking place across the table be- both statistically and educationally significant. It's not a tween the government and the representatives of the question of the subjective view of teachers that the re- teachers. This kind of discussion should be taking place sults were better. This is a research result with objec- there in an effort to fashion the solutions that will bene- tive tests that proves there's a definite, positive correla- fit children in the long run. tion between smaller class size and academic results. Now, it's difficult to see how the government can claim [1115] that in this alleged golden decade we're either in the middle Teachers also report, in particular — and this is of or have just started — I'm not sure of the timing; it seems significant for some of the members here — that small to vary — that this shouldn't be part of achieving those…. classes located in inner-city schools made the greatest gain scores on the standard achievement test, and Interjection. small classes located in rural schools made the highest SAT and BSF scores. Not only did it benefit urban stu- B. Ralston: This decade. Well, the members oppo- dents, it benefited students in small rural schools, and site are very replete with mineral analogies, and I think many of the members who represent constituencies that's appropriate given their composition on occasion. where there are a number of smaller schools in rural areas will be interested in that result, I'm sure. Deputy Speaker: Member. Could I just remind Teachers reported that small classes helped them to members to make sure they keep their information better identify student needs, allowed them to provide relevant to the amendment. more individual attention and enabled them to effectively cover more material. What were the results in B. Ralston: Well, I was simply responding to the Tennessee? It's sometimes perhaps not regarded, inspiration provided by members opposite, but I'll re-

708 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 turn to my text. Those issues should have been and programs and the drama programs and the music pro- could be properly discussed across the bargaining ta- grams — those things which, together with the aca- ble, because to some extent, while they are important demic courses, make us human beings and teach us public policy issues, the way in which those issues play and give us the opportunity to share and build com- out in a collective agreement should be the subject of munity. They can tell us, and I see them nodding in the negotiation. gallery. [1120] [1125] Certainly, school trustees — who administer the It's not for us to tell them. It's for them to tell us, funds provided by the provincial government in order and the students of British Columbia today are telling to achieve the educational objectives set for them by us what side of this struggle they're on. I note in the the Ministry of Education but are obliged to make, as paper this morning a photo of the students at we so often hear from the minister, the tough choices Templeton Secondary School — I think, in the riding of about where to allocate funds — should be part of that, my dear friend and colleague from Vancouver- and there should be funds provided to achieve those Hastings — who put up a banner on the school yester- kinds of academic results. If the government were to day: "We support our teachers." Why is that? Why seize this opportunity and open up the process, those would they do that? They do that because they, like the kinds of discussions about those important issues of students who are with us today, are the experts. public policy could take place. They're the ones on the front lines, they're the ones in It is with some hope that I support this amendment, the classrooms, and they understand the stakes of this this motion that's put forward, to stop this bill in the struggle. They understand what's going on in the tracks and to get back, using the good offices of Mr. schools of B.C. today, and all across the province the Ready, and begin a process of bargaining, which is students have come out in support of their teachers. really all that the parties on the teachers' side desire — I'm going to talk a little more in a few minutes and parents and students desire as well. Everyone is about what's happening today and what I expect will looking for a result that people can be proud of, and happen over the next few days, but first I want to talk this occasion provides the opportunity to do that. I about the law. There were a lot of people talking about urge the government members on the other side to take the law yesterday, the day before and today. I expect a second look and agree with this amendment. Let's get that we'll hear more about it. This government has on with the job, and let's stop fighting among our- been found to have broken the law with respect to selves. teachers, to learning, to labour standards and to labour law internationally — this government. D. Chudnovsky: Madam Speaker, good morning to The members opposite need to take responsibility you, good morning to the members here assembled for their actions, which have been found to be illegal. I and, in particular, good morning to the students who think it's important that we look very carefully at the join us in the gallery here today. actions they have taken and the action they propose to I don't really remember what time it was, but last take today. It is directly relevant to international legal night I had a chance to visit with some of the students decisions that have been made. I will, hopefully, take out on the steps of the Legislature, and I told them that us through that in the coming minutes. They have to it was a wonderful opportunity for me, in particular, take responsibility for having broken the law with re- because I am a teacher. I haven't been teaching for a spect to the relationship they have with the teachers of year and a half, and I miss it terribly. I miss being with this province. the young folks and learning from them, hearing what Where does that decision come from? The decision they have to say, and I miss the energy and the vitality. comes from the International Labour Organization. It's Although there is at times some energy and vitality important to talk about what the International Labour here, it doesn't compare to what I have experienced in Organization is. my many years of teaching. I said something else to the students who I spoke with last night, and I want to repeat it here today. I said Deputy Speaker: Member. May I again just remind to the students: "Don't listen to them in there. You're members, when they're speaking through their delib- the experts. You know better than anyone the situation erations, that they tie it back to the amendment that's in our schools." These young people who are here to- before the House. day with us in the gallery can tell us the stories of the situation and the learning conditions of students in our D. Chudnovsky: Absolutely. Madam Speaker, schools better than anyone. They know about the thank you for that advice. I will say to you that the changes that have taken place in classrooms across the argument I'm making — and it's an important one — province over the last four years. They can tell us, no is: this bill, here proposed, is consistent with laws pre- matter what is said on the other side, about increased viously passed by this House which have been found class sizes, problems with class composition, crowded to be illegal; therefore, it is appropriate for this House classrooms, fewer resources, textbooks that are broken to pass the amendment before it. It's a simple and and services of specialist teachers who should be there straightforward argument. I thank you for your advice, and aren't there. They can tell us of the cuts in the art and I'll continue to make that point.

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What is the International Labour Organization? The [Be it resolved that the motion for the second reading of ILO is an agency of the United Nations which has re- the Bill intituled Teachers' Collective Agreement Act, ceived in 1969 the Nobel peace prize. The ILO is unique 2005, be amended by striking out all the words after "that" and adding "the bill intituled Teachers' Collective within the UN system because of its balanced, tripartite Agreement Act, 2005, be not now passed at second read- structure. That is, Madam Speaker, those who make the ing, because an opportunity still exists for the parties to decisions and have decided that this government has engage in collective bargaining."] broken the law are representatives of labour, manage- I again ask the member to please keep his comments ment and government. relevant to the amendment. The ILO works to uphold eight conventions fundamental to the rights of human beings at their work. D. Chudnovsky: Madam Speaker, thank you for They cover freedom of association, the right to organ- that. I would ask, Madam Speaker, for your direction, ize collective bargaining, abolition of forced labour, etc. please. We are asking that this bill be not passed today. A number of years ago, after this government had Our argument is…. We've made a whole number of brought in a number of bills — specifically Bills 18, 27 arguments that would permit government to take up and 28 — those decisions were forwarded to the ILO, the offer of the teachers of the province to engage in the International Labour Organization of the United discussions with them, a range of arguments have been Nations. That organization — a tripartite organization made as to why that is a good idea and why the representative of business, labour and government — amendment should be passed. This is one in a range of was asked to rule as to whether those bills were consis- arguments that have been made. So I ask for your tent with the rule of law as expressed in the conven- guidance, Madam Speaker, as to why this argument, tions of the International Labour Organization, conven- which is one within a range of arguments that's been tions which the government of Canada, on behalf of all put forward, is somehow inappropriate. of us, has signed.

The first bill that was submitted to the ILO was Bill 18, the essential services act, which was passed, I be- Deputy Speaker: Member, the Chair advises that lieve, in the year 2001. there is an amendment on the floor and that members speak directly to the amendment. The second bill was Bill 27, the Education Services Collective Agreement Act, the bill which ripped up the provisions of the teachers' collective agreement in the D. Chudnovsky: Madam Speaker, with great re- winter, in January of 2002. spect, it's my belief that that's precisely what's being [1130] done here, but I bow to your authority, and I will move on to other arguments in the… The third was Bill 28, which made it illegal in British Columbia to negotiate the learning conditions of students. As I've said before in this House, it is illegal in Deputy Speaker: Proceed, member. British Columbia for school teachers and their employers to sit down and collectively bargain improvements for D. Chudnovsky: …presentation that I've prepared. students' learning conditions in schools. It's illegal. It There's something going on in this province that is seems preposterous, but that's what Bill 28 did. quite unique. Over the last couple of days, we look to These three bills were submitted to the International the response of the people of the province to the prob- Labour Organization. The organization was asked to lems that we have been debating — in individual convene a tripartite panel to determine whether those communications, in letters to the editor, on call-in decisions of this House were consistent with interna- shows, in manifestations like the one that we've had for tional law. The decision in each of those three cases was the last couple of days in front of the Legislature, and that the passing of those laws in this House was incon- in petitions. sistent with international law — illegal. [1135] Let's try to be logical here. The bill before us, which We note that the people of the province, more and we are trying to amend, is to continue the effect of more, are suggesting to us as a House that we do ex- those three decisions which were found to be illegal — actly what this amendment asks of the government: in particular, Bills 27 and 28, but including Bill 18. This that is, that we take a step back from the brink and government, I would submit to the House, is proposing allow for the possibility of continued negotiations. to us that we once again take action which the United I'd like, Madam Speaker, to indicate to you some of Nations three times has decided is illegal. We need to those opinions that instruct us or give us advice as to be clear about what it is we're being asked to do. There- the course that we should take and that are supportive fore, it is only logical and rational for this side of the of the amendment before us. For instance, a constituent House to put before the members an amendment ask- of the Premier writes: "I have to side with and ask you ing us not to do that which is illegal. to represent me" — the constituent asks of the Premier Let me read from the decision of the…. — "by siding with the teachers. Changing the rules of the game after the game has started is highly inappro- Deputy Speaker: Member, I'm going to read the priate, in bad faith and borders on unethical. Realize amendment. The amendment reads: that you cannot force the teachers back to work ethi-

710 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 cally after you have changed the rules." That from a It's instructive to us as we look at the problem we constituent of the Premier's. face right now. What does an employer that is looking The trustees of the Vancouver school board, who for solutions do? I would argue that an employer look- are, in fact, the employers of almost 10 percent of the ing for solutions supports the amendment before the people who this government chooses not to engage House. with to find a solution to this problem, have written the A letter from some parents, which was copied to following — and again, this encourages all of us, I me but was addressed to the Minister of Education and think, on both sides of the House to look sympatheti- the Minister of Labour. cally at the amendment before us. We are parents at Britannia Secondary School, Vancou- Trustees of the Vancouver school board say the provin- ver, and we're very concerned about the recent teacher cial government has not acted in the best interests of stu- labour dispute and the possible government action of dents in provoking a provincewide shutdown of the pub- imposing a contract on the teachers causing the teachers lic education system. to walk out, thus disrupting the education of our chil- "Bill 12 does nothing to ensure long-term stability in dren. public education," says Allan Wong, Vancouver school As parents we have seen class size increases, fewer board vice-chairperson. "Legislated solutions and im- school counsellors, diminished support of our special posed settlements have contributed to the deterioration needs and ESL students, smaller school budgets for sup- of relations among those who care about the quality of plies and learning resources, old textbooks and higher educational offerings for our students." school fees in Britannia Secondary School. Wong says the VSB has worked hard to repair those They say, in closing: relations, which will suffer setbacks because of Bill 12. We strongly urge you as government officials to consider "We're still living with the scars of previous contract dis- the real needs of our children and the important role of putes that were settled through legislation." our teachers in their development. Please try to do your They go on to talk about the need for stability and very best to do everything to bring a satisfactory outcome finish with: "'When almost 91 percent of the province's to all parties. teachers vote to take such action,' says Wong, 'the pro- Instructing us and suggesting to us and counselling us, vincial government needs to realize that these profes- once again, that the amendment before us should be sionals have been deeply offended.'" passed so that we can respond to the kind of point of view that is expressed in this letter. Therefore, we should move to accept the amendment before us. It's worthwhile thinking a little bit My colleague from Vancouver-Hastings, an hour about the relationship between teachers and their em- ago or three hours ago or whenever it was that he was ployers and how you build the kind of environment speaking, began to read a letter from an organization and the kind of trust that allows for progress to be called the New Proposals Publishing Society and the made and for solutions to be found. inner-city school supporters, and unfortunately — because I thought he was doing a wonderful job, but time It's instructive to think about the Vancouver school marches on — he wasn't able to finish reading that board, the employers of almost 10 percent of the teach- letter. I'd like to do that, if I may. ers of the province, faced with the same kinds of difficulties in funding that every other school board has Again, giving us advice on how we as a House faced over the last four years as a result of the inade- should respond to the kind of situation we face. They quacy of the resources provided to school districts. Yet say: it's my experience and the experience of the other We are parents, students and community members who share a strong sense of respect and admiration for the MLAs here representing Vancouver that there's never hard work and dedication that our teachers in the public been a better relationship between teachers and their school system demonstrate on a daily basis. employers in the history of schools in Vancouver than We're writing to you to express our disappointment there is now. in the actions of your government with respect to teach- How can that happen? How can that instruct us, on ers. We appreciate that you believe you're putting chil- both sides of this House, as we struggle and grapple dren first in education, but as parents and others con- with this problem? We should be instructed by the cerned about the welfare of our children, who've seen the level of respect, the level of cooperation, the level of direct effects of your actions in our public schools, we would respectfully disagree. consensus-building and the level of real consultation. Under your administration the situation in schools That's what the teachers of Vancouver have experi- has gotten worse, not better. Class sizes have increased, enced with respect to their direct employer, the Van- support for learning disabilities has declined and many couver school board, and it's why that relationship schools have inadequate resources. Parent advisory is…. Not to say there aren't problems. councils have been compelled to pay for funding gaps, [1140] while teachers spend more and more of their personal income on needed school resources. The school boards, the employer…. The teachers in Your government has placed the burden of these Vancouver have a union — a very experienced union problems on the backs of our teachers. Not surprisingly, — that advocates on their behalf, and there are dis- they have voted overwhelmingly to say: "No more." agreements from time to time, as there always will be We're writing to express our support of the actions being between employers and employees, but there's a level taken by our public school teachers. We also ask that Bill of respect and cooperation that transcends all of that. 12 be withdrawn and that the government enter into di-

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rect talks to reach a fair, free and democratic collective I think my time is almost up, but I want to say agreement with the teachers of B.C. something. I say this with the utmost of seriousness It's signed by dozens and dozens and dozens of people and with the greatest respect for many of the members who live in the province and who, once again, provide opposite, some of whom I've come to know over the advice to this House as to how we should go about last few weeks. If anyone on the other side of the resolving this situation. House thinks that Bill 12 will create stability and calm A few minutes ago, I received a very interesting e- and predictability in our schools, they need to think mail. It's from a resident of Quesnel, who is known to again. With the greatest of respect, I ask that they think me. His name is Chris Kempling; he's a teacher. I need again. Bill 12 won't deal with the real challenges of the to say to you, Madam Speaker, that he's a colleague learning conditions, the conditions under which chil- with whom I, as a teacher and as a teacher leader for dren learn in this province. It won't do that. many years, disagree about virtually everything. The government and its representatives opposite [1145] have from time to time over the last number of days pretended — I use the word "pretended" with respect [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] — that nothing is amiss. Ask those kids. Ask these young people. Don't pretend to yourself that the learning conditions haven't deteriorated. I suspect that most Members here present may have read about Mr. members on the other side know and understand that. Kempling's point of view on a whole number of ques- I suspect you know and understand that. It's important tions. His point of view is, to underplay the situation that — again, with respect — I ask that you act on that dramatically, somewhat at odds with the prevailing understanding. view of the members of the British Columbia Teachers It doesn't create stability in the learning conditions of Federation. Nevertheless, he's a member, and he writes children to pass this bill. It doesn't deal with the teachers' to his MLA, the member for Cariboo North: request for a fair and reasonable wage hike to pass this As a card-carrying member of the B.C. Liberal Party, this is a hard letter for me to write. I am one of the few teach- bill. If members opposite don't care about that, think ers in the Cariboo North riding who's a Liberal Party about the kids. What about recruitment and retention of member and was an active volunteer in the past two elec- teachers in this province? What about the relationship tions. While I still support many of their policies, this between salaries and those in other provinces? government's education policy is a disaster. There's something more basic than all of that. You Mr. Kempling goes on to write: can't legislate loyalty. I am one of the 90.5 percent of teachers who voted to support job action. I will be out on the picket line tomor- Mr. Speaker: Member, I'm giving you the broadest row — of leeway, but be specific to the amendment. today — and every day until we get a decent deal to vote on. D. Chudnovsky: Thank you for the advice, Mr. It's extremely discouraging to be treated so shabbily. We Speaker. have real needs in our classrooms which are not being [1150] addressed. My colleagues are straining to deal with huge The legislation purports to solve the problems. The class sizes, which often have large numbers of special needs students and scanty support. As a testing special- amendment suggests that the problems of the system will ist, I'm well acquainted with the amount of students with not be solved by the passing of the legislation, and here's a challenging learning disabilities. Moreover, our wages reason why: you can't legislate loyalty. You can't legislate are falling seriously behind those in Alberta and Ontario. morale. This legislation will significantly reduce the mo- How can we possibly build the best education jurisdic- rale of our front-line workers in education, our teachers. tion on the continent with such regressive policies? You can't legislate enthusiasm. This legislation will The employer represented by BCPSEA has no real dampen and curtail the enthusiasm of tens of thousands mandate to negotiate anything substantive, yet we are of teachers in this province. That's why, with respect, I continually bashed for meeting 35 times without results. encourage members opposite to vote for the amendment. We came to the table 35 times to negotiate, but it is impossible when the government ties the employer's hands. Finally, a good friend of mine — he's a hero of mine I'll be honest — — calls teachers "workers of the mind." The public says the teacher in Quesnel school teachers of this province are indeed our workers — I can't afford to be on a picket line, but I'm behind my of the mind. They do the hard slogging. They do the union all the way on this one. Bill 12 is a lousy way to caring. They set the standards. They make the magic build educational excellence in the province of British happen in our classrooms across the province every Columbia. As my MLA, please ask the minister to nego- day. Bill 12 does absolutely nothing to solve problems. tiate in good faith with the BCTF. On the contrary, it creates more problems. It makes That's from a Liberal Party member in Quesnel. Again, things more difficult. implicit in the e-mail from the teacher in Cariboo North is But there's still time. There's still time. We have put advice to us as the representatives of the people of British before this House an amendment. We're not joking. We Columbia about how this dispute should be dealt with. do it with utmost seriousness. There is still time to cre- The advice is consistent with the amendment which is ate dialogue, to create consensus, to look for solutions. before us today. I ask every member to support the amendment.

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[Applause.] the opportunity. I don't believe the situation could be any clearer. J. Horgan: I want to thank those in the chamber for Citizens that elected us, that sent us to this place, that rousing applause. As the designated speaker on students, are speaking out. In today's daily Province: this amendment, I look forward to the next two-hour "As word of today's teacher walkout made its way tour as we go through the importance of this reasoned around the halls of Templeton Secondary School in east amendment. Vancouver yesterday, some grade 12 students went to I'll read the amendment, just so we're clear — at work with their own message." Their own message. I'm least the salient point, and that is "not to be passed now now asking the government to seize the opportunity. at second reading" — because an opportunity still ex- "They made two large 'We Support Teachers' banners ists for the parties to engage in collective bargaining — and hung them from windows at the school's main a golden opportunity for a golden decade. I would entrance." An appeal to this Legislature, an appeal to think that would be thematic for the group on the other the government side. Take the opportunity. Sit down side. I would think that the government would want to and negotiate. Sit down and reach a truly, fairly, freely seize the opportunity to add another golden append- bargained collective agreement. age to their policies and platforms, a golden opportu- A student at Templeton said further, and it's nity to stand down the hostility in this province, to quoted in the Province. "'I definitely support the teach- stand down from pitting one group in our society ers,' said Sam Wilson, 17, a grade 12 student. 'I think against another, to stand down from confrontation and they have to do whatever it takes to show they are se- conflict. rious about our education.'" What could be more My colleagues have spoken very eloquently, and poignant than that? I'm proud of each and every one of them for standing We've heard members on the opposite side talk in this place and speaking with passion, sincerity and about how essential it is that kids remain in the class- commitment about the importance of public education room. It's no more essential than to grade 12 students. and the role of educators in that system. I've said now, There can't be a group of students in school today that it seems many, many times over the past number of require the attention, care and nurturing by teachers days, that if you don't have educators in a room with more than grade 12 students. I have a grade 12 son kids and students, you've just got kids in a room. You myself who's at Belmont high school right now, talking can't have one without the other. What we've appealed with his teachers, supporting his teachers. I respect my to the other side to understand…. I know they under- son for doing that. I'm proud of my son for doing that, stand it, and I'm still flummoxed at why they continue as I'm proud of the children in the gallery today. to ignore the importance of the person at the front of The opportunity exists, and that's why we've put the room. forward this amendment. We've been here for dozens Over the course of the past number of hours as I've of hours now, a score of hours — not four score but spoken to Bill 12, I've reflected upon the teachers that dozens of hours — appealing to the other side to take have had a significant impact on my life, and I know the opportunity that's been presented to them — a there are many of my colleagues who are anxious to…. golden opportunity. They had the opportunity in 2003, and they rejected it at that time, as well, when they Mr. Speaker: Member, it's the "opportunity still stripped teachers of their self-governing responsibili- exists for the parties to engage in collective bargain- ties within the teachers college. ing." They had an opportunity, and they ignored it again, in 2004 when the B.C. Supreme Court decision J. Horgan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and that's ex- said that classroom composition was a working condi- actly the point I'm getting to with my comments. The tion and should be freely bargained in a collective opportunity exists for this government to stand down. agreement. They had an opportunity then, and they They had an opportunity in 2002 as well. They had an rejected it. opportunity then, and they tore up an agreement. They Our objective here today is to make it absolutely imposed at that time a collective agreement on the par- clear that those members on that side of the House will ties that we're discussing in this bill. And with this have our complete and full support. I will stand here amendment, we're hopeful that they will seize the op- and applaud each and every one of them when they portunity this time to reject that course of action and get up and vote in favour of this amendment to take return to a more commonsensical approach, an ap- the opportunity to sit down, do the hard work neces- proach that people outside of this place would under- sary to bargain an agreement and make some trade- stand. offs. [1155] I appreciate, Mr. Speaker, your desire for precision The citizens that elected us are appealing to us over the next two hours, and I'm going to do my level through their e-mails, through their correspondence, best to be as precise as I can and speak to the amend- through the students in the gallery, through the teach- ment about this golden opportunity. ers that are gathering at this place. They're appealing My friend from Hillside reminds of me of my time not to us on this side but to those on that side to seize at Lake Hill Elementary School here in greater Victoria.

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In grade seven, in fact, it was Mr. Smith. He was the mocratic and human rights here in British Columbia. vice-principal at the time. It's amazing, truly amazing. Division, intimidation, disregard — that's what Mr. Speaker: Member. we've been trying to focus on in our remarks over the past dozen hours or so. Two dozen hours, three dozen Hon. R. Thorpe: Was that the first time? The first hours — I've lost track now, but that won't take me year in grade seven or the second? away from my objective, which is to speak precisely to the amendment that's before us. I'll speak as precisely J. Horgan: Just the first. It was grade nine that was as I can to the opportunity, because we were blessed troublesome, hon. member, but thank you. In grade being born in this province. It is a province of opportu- seven, I was actually quite good. It was in grade nine nity. that the wheels came off the cart. I recall that the Premier in the 1990s, a friend of And thank you, Mr. Speaker, for keeping me on mine — the early 1990s; that would have been the taller track. I realize it's very important that we use repetition Premier with less hair — used to say it was a big prov- as much as possible so that members on the other side ince, and it was a wide province. Of course, these are truly grasp this opportunity, seize this opportunity. factual statements, but if you stop and reflect on it for a [1200] moment, it is, indeed, a big province and a wide prov- I see the member from Fraserview; I know he's anx- ince filled with educators and filled with students who ious to stand with me and support teachers, support respect and love the work that their educators are do- kids. I see my friend from Burrard, and I do call him a ing. friend. We've only been here for a short time, but as I That's why they're filling this gallery. That's why get to know the members on the other side, I do realize they're filling the stairs out there. That's why they're that they are human beings, as well — as are we on this walking in front of their schools with their teachers, side. I acknowledge that. thanking them for the years and years of dedication As I've said earlier on, I sought election to come to that they've got from them. this place so that I could work with all points of view. That was what my mom taught me back in grade seven An Hon. Member: They'd support the amendment. at Lake Hill Elementary School. My mom taught me to work with my friends and to work with my enemies to J. Horgan: They would support the amendment, find common solutions to common problems. Collec- absolutely. They would want this place, this House, to tive responsibility — that's what my mother taught me. seize the opportunity that's before us. There is an op- The challenge that I have in this place today over portunity. We've highlighted that opportunity with the next two hours is to speak…. The member from this amendment. Langara gives me a smile, and I appreciate that smile very much, as the member from Hastings knows. The H. Bains: A golden opportunity. challenge I have is that I've been saying it over and over again. My colleagues, each and every one of them, J. Horgan: It's a golden opportunity, as my friend have stood up throughout the hours, as we go through from Surrey points out. I've had correspondence from this legislation by exhaustion, appealing to the other teachers in my community, constituents that I'm here side, appealing to my friend from Burrard: do the right to represent. If you'll indulge me again, I'd like to read thing. Grab the opportunity. a few comments. I won't be overly long with it, because As we speak to this amendment, I've been advised I have other remarks about this opportunity that I want that throughout this province, across this land that we to make over the course of the next number of hours, are privileged enough to represent, administrators and so I'll just read briefly: superintendents are serving papers on individual I am a teacher on call in the Sooke school district who has teachers in front of their schools, in front of their work- been teaching for three years. As a math-science special- places. They're not going to the leadership of the union. ist, I am deeply concerned about the impacts of the Lib- They're going to individual teachers — intimidation eral legislation on education policy in this province. I tactics that, quite frankly, are startling in this day and have been in classrooms throughout the district and have age, in this province at this time. noticed that many classes are dangerously overcrowded. As I was coming into the chamber to speak to the [1205] importance of seizing the opportunity, I also heard We've heard the members opposite talk about es- people talking about rallies in Latin American coun- sential services and how it's essential that children be tries today in support of teachers in British Columbia. I in classrooms. The act used to say…. As you know, Mr. know, Mr. Speaker, you'll indulge me for a moment Speaker, I've read it before, but for those watching at when I pause and reflect on how bizarre that truly is. I home and who don't want to go through the time to remember, as I was growing up, going to rallies in find Hansard…. I know that if you don't have access to support of democratic rights in Latin American coun- a computer, it can be difficult to access this place. For tries. Now we hear, as we come into this place today, those who do have television and the cable bundle that that there are groups and individuals in Latin Ameri- provides people with the opportunity to watch this fine can countries that are coming together to support de- programming, I'll read to you what it used to say with

714 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 respect to essential services. It used to say: "…the We can give our students the best education possi- health, safety or welfare of the residents of British Co- ble — a golden goal, a golden opportunity for the lumbia." That's what the essential services designation golden goal; the most literate and well-educated juris- was for. diction in North America. I know they don't say "bar That was for my brother who was a firefighter in none," but I'm going to say it: bar none, bar none. this city for 30 or 35 years. I don't know exactly how [1210] long it was, brother Brian, but it was a long time. He This is a letter that was sent to me. It's a copy to me put his life on the line. He was a member of a trade as a member of this Legislature, but it was sent to the union. He worked very hard protecting the citizens of Minister of Education. I know that with FOI we could this community, and he knew, even as a trade unionist, maybe appeal to get this read on the record some that what he did was essential to the community for months down the road, but I'll take the opportunity, as the health and safety of the community. I respect him I have it here before me. It goes as follows: "Our teach- for saying, "No, I'm going to take my democratic rights ers in British Columbia are bravely fighting a worth- and I'm going to put them aside because it's important while cause and need our 100-percent support to real- what I do." ize necessary requirements to improve the conditions I believe, although teachers are vital to lifting up of work and therefore the quality of education in our our citizenry, that it's not so vital that we should put schools." An appeal to seize the opportunity. them in a classroom that's dangerous. I've got teachers My friend from Oak Bay, I know, would want to who have written to me and said that they are working seize that opportunity. She works very hard in this in unsafe, overcrowded conditions. Now my brother, community. She knows the importance of schools in the firefighter, would say: "If the fire marshal went into her community. When I was at Reynolds high school, one of these classrooms, what would he say?" What we used to play basketball at Oak Bay high school in would the fire marshal say if he went into a classroom her community. I think I mentioned my basketball with 30, 34, 35 students? He'd be shocked, I would coach a couple of days ago. It was Jack Lusk. He lives think. I know my friends here on this side of the House in Cowichan Station now, in my constituency, and I would appeal to the fire marshal and say: "Don't you had the opportunity to see him the other day, and he think, fire marshal, that the government should seize said: “Member for Malahat–Juan de Fuca, you won't be this opportunity — this golden opportunity which able to dunk a basketball anymore. You must be 40 we're focused so precisely on in this debate right now?" pounds overweight.” I said: “Well, maybe 30, Mr. I think the answer is yes. I think they, fire marshals Lusk, and I'm trying to get it to be 20 so that my friend across this province, would want this government to from Alberni-Qualicum can cart me on his back up the seize the opportunity. Are you with me? Can we have West Coast Trail, which I spoke about in my remarks at a hallelujah? the start of the session." "Dear Mr. Horgan, as a parent of triplets…." When I was in Oak Bay playing basketball, we lost regularly. We lost regularly to the Oak Bay Bays from Mr. Speaker: Member. my colleague's constituency. I don't know what the cause of that was. Maybe it was that we were just slower and smaller and not as good, but…. J. Horgan: Pardon me. Yes, thank you for reminding me, Mr. Speaker. Dear member for Malahat–Juan de Fuca, as a parent of Interjection. triplets, I feel I have a well-informed, balanced view of the public education system. Quite frankly, it is deterio- J. Horgan: My friend from Langara said: “That rating. My 16-year-old daughter, who used to love could be it. You might be on to something there, hon. school, took honours English, worked hard and made member. It could well be, you just weren't good every effort but now is ready to quit in her grade 12 year. She struggles in math — enough." Well, that could be, but it wasn't for lack of trying. We tried very hard, we saw the opportunity, as This daughter, she struggles in math. my friend from Saanich South says, and we did our — and finds the class way too large at 30-plus to even get the teacher's attention long enough so that she under- level best every time we stepped on to the court. stands the concepts. She is intimidated by the sheer That's what we should all do in this place, every number of students who are listening to her questions, time we step on to the court. Every time we step on this and ultimately, she's losing hope. carpet — which I'm guessing is red — we should do We need poets in our society. Mr. Speaker, you the best we can to lift up the people in our communi- know that. I'm certain you know that. We have an Eng- ties, to lift up people in constituencies right across this lish student working hard, trying to excel in an area province. The way to start is to support educators, to that she's passionate about, yet she's compromised by treat them with respect, to listen to their concerns and math concepts. She's in a classroom with 30-plus stu- to listen to them when they say: "There are too many dents. She can't get the attention she needs. She would kids in the class right now to achieve the outcomes we appeal to this place to seize the opportunity to talk all want." The outcomes that those on that side of the about the important issues of class size and class com- House want, the outcomes that those on this side of the position so we can lift up our citizenry. House want is the most educated and literate citizenry

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 715 on the continent. Say it with me, bar none — abso- I want to read to you, Mr. Speaker, about that op- lutely, absolutely. portunity that's been presented and why we've been We've been in this place for dozens and dozens of focusing on it, why we believe that the government hours, because we believe profoundly in the quality of should involve themselves in this dispute and not be the public education system in this province. I was in a aloof to it, not pretend, as some of my colleagues have scrum outside of this place, and someone asked me said, that there's a car accident over there that…. "Well, what I was going to do if something happened today. I I don't know anything about that. All I do know now is said that I was confident that my kids were getting the that the car is broken, and I'm going to get a commis- best education they could, but it could be better. And it sion together, and we're going to look at it in six could be better if we reduce class sizes. It could be bet- months and see just what happened there." What we're ter if we provided the resources for education assis- saying is: "Let's do that now. Let's do that today. Let's tants in classrooms, if we provided more funding for involve ourselves — government members — in solv- teacher-librarians, if we provided more funding for ing the problems today." other important workplace improvements so our Students that are with us in the gallery are saying: teachers could get the best out of our kids. "Why are they here? What's going on? Why do all these My kids are at Belmont high school, and they're people get together, read their correspondence and doing the best they can. The teachers there are doing listen to the debate that's going on, if they weren't here the best they can. I have to speak, also, just for a mo- to fix the problem?" ment about a math teacher, and I did read about the I went out, as my colleagues did, to speak to the poet that we have who's having difficulty with con- students on the steps over the course of the evening, cepts. At Dunsmuir Middle School in my constituency, and I tried to…. In fact, three came into the office when there's a Mr. Ross, and he's out there, I tell you, he's out I was away from this place with other business. I was there. He's a math and science teacher. We would go to talking to them, and I was respectful of the members parent-teacher meetings, and we would talk with Mr. on the other side. I wanted to make sure — I did, genu- Ross, and I have to confess that I had a little trouble inely, want to make sure — that those students didn't wondering where the heck he was going. Where are feel any antipathy to the members on that side of the you going with this stuff? My son Evan excels in math House. I tried to explain to them that this was a policy and science, and he had a bond with this teacher be- issue that the two sides had a profound difference on, cause that was his aptitude, that was his skill, that was and we needed to respect the views on the other side, his passion. So this teacher, passionate about math and but we also needed to cajole — to appeal with our rea- science, was able to take my son's passion and elevate son, our passion and our amendment — to have them it because they had a relationship, because they had see our point of view. That's what the debate is all interaction. With class sizes that are in excess of 30 stu- about; that's why we're in this place. dents, you don't get that relationship. But while we're here, well, we've got a captive audi- That's the whole point, and I know the members ence of young people who are wondering, for perhaps opposite don't want to hear my school history, and I the first time: "What is this process all about?" The social appreciate that. The point of it was: teachers matter in studies lesson that they're getting right now is pro- our lives. Teachers matter in our children's lives. found. Yet when they walk away, I think they might be Teachers matter in the lives of the students that are in a bit disappointed. They're going to say: "Hey, all the this place, so much so that they followed a teacher who people on that side stood up and spoke about this. They walked here on Wednesday to make a point and to introduced amendments to try and change the bill, to appeal to us to seize the opportunity, as we're asking in try and soften the impact on our community. They tried this amendment. Seize the opportunity to lift up our to improve the situation; they tried to lift the debate." citizens, to bring people together, not divide them. I'm hopeful that we'll be successful when we do that. Don't serve people with summons. Serve them with I'm very hopeful that we will be successful. compassion and empathy and respect. That's what they I want to read from the Vancouver Sun today. It's want. That's what they do. from a columnist, and it goes as follows: "Nothing [1215] stops the government from negotiating directly with The opportunity that we speak of in this amend- the BCTF as it now does with government workers. By ment has been presented to us in a number of ways, neutering the school boards and precluding negotia- through back channels, through individuals that we tion of class size, it has essentially placed the teachers know and respect who have talked to us about their in the same position as its own workers." interactions with government. We know from com- So what this columnist, a gentleman by the name of ments that the Minister of Labour has made over the Norman Spector, a fine individual…. He was a deputy course of the past number of days — and these have minister in this place for the Premier in the 1980s. He been difficult days for government, difficult days for was chief of staff to a Conservative Prime Minister, and this side of the House, very difficult days for parents I would like to think that Mr. Spector and I are friends. concerned that their kids are not going to be in school, We've come to know each other over the course of their teachers are not going to be doing what they love time, and…. to do, what they were trained to do, because of policy decisions by that side of the House…. Hon. G. Abbott: He loves your party now.

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J. Horgan: Well, I don't know if he loves our party composition so that everyone in our society will bene- now, as the member across says. He loves ideas. What fit. Norman Spector loves is ideas. He loves a good debate. That's all we're asking. Sit down, talk to front-line He loves to be challenged. workers, find solutions to problems — don't ignore them. I know my friend from Port Coquitlam–Burke Hon. G. Abbott: He's come way over. Mountain…. He and I have talked at length about the importance of debate in this chamber. He has guided J. Horgan: He's come way over to the good side, me, and I thank him for that. Everything I've learned, I not the…. learned at his elbow or elbows similar to his over the course of my time here. Interjections. But this is a serious debate, and I know sometimes…. I think I asked for some latitude about my Mr. Speaker: Members. irreverence, again. I guess it was a trick I picked up when I was at Reynolds high school here in Victoria, in J. Horgan: I think we're off track, Mr. Speaker. I my grade ten year. I know I'm skipping a couple of think I'd like to get back to my precise arguments on years, and that will be a challenge for those on the the amendment before this House, but before I do that, other side, but I promise to fill in my colleagues on I would like to say one more word on Norman Spector, "John Horgan: The Lost Years." I'll start on those, and if because I do value his ideas and his friendship, and I members opposite care to join me, I'm pleased to sit know that the members opposite do. down with members opposite at any time to fill them He puts forward reasoned arguments, always. He in on those lost bits. is a keen observer of public events — around the But at this moment I would just like to talk a little world, in fact. He is certainly an authority on issues in bit about Reynolds high school and why I'm so pas- the Middle East. I know some would take issue with sionate about education. I was drifting. I was drifting, his perspective, but my goodness, he is certainly well- Mr. Speaker and colleagues. They know that. We've read, well-travelled and well-informed. He says in his had some discussions about this. Teachers cared column today that government has an opportunity. enough. They saw enough in me. How, I don't know, Government has an opportunity to directly involve but they did, and they put down a hand. I was bright themselves in this negotiation, as they do with other enough, thank goodness, to grab it. groups in society and other public sector workers. But today with class sizes burgeoning, bursting at [1220] the seams, teachers don't have that opportunity. They So we have Norman Spector supporting this side of see potential. They try and grasp it, but if they don't get the House, supporting this reasoned amendment, ap- it at the right moment, it may be gone forever. As edu- pealing to the government to seize this opportunity to cators have said to me…. I've had the honour and sit down and find a freely, fairly and fully bargained privilege over the past number of months to meet with collective agreement. groups, teachers in all walks of life and all areas of en- I have some correspondence from another individ- deavour — music teachers, drama teachers, teachers of ual in my community, and I'd like to read it into the dance, home economics, science, math. I met with abo- record, if I could have the latitude. I know I've only got riginal teachers. My friend from Alberni-Qualicum and the two hours today, but I'll be brief so I can get on to I met with aboriginal teachers earlier this week — pas- the other remarks that I want to make at this point in sionate about what they do, committed to their craft, time. anxious, anxious to meet kids, to bring them to the best It goes as follows: "This year I have two children possible outcomes. Seeing potential, squeezing it out so with severe behaviours. One child is deaf in one ear that everybody benefits. and almost impossible to understand when he speaks. Members on that side of the House, members on There are two other children with severe speech prob- this side of the House: how do we do that after dozens lems. I have a child who was assaulted as an infant and and dozens of hours in this place? I see some blank is seeing a therapist. She is terrified of noise and faces in the gallery, and quite frankly, you should have change." seen us earlier on. If you think this is blank right now, These are the kids that are in our system today, and they're here because they, too, want to watch democ- we need to do everything we can to get them through racy in process. Our side of the House is appealing to the traumas that have been visited upon them and do the people over there to seize this opportunity, this everything we can with the public education system golden opportunity for a golden decade, so that we can that we have so proudly built over decades in this have the most literate and well-educated citizens in the province to provide them with the best opportunities continent, bar none. possible. You don't do that by taking resources out of I've got some papers here, and I apologize. I have the classroom. You don't do that by reducing teachers two hours' worth of documents, and it's going to take in the community. You don't do that by turning your me a moment to find it. Here it is. This is what I was back on front-line workers who are appealing to the looking for. This will be the last letter that I'll read government to take the opportunity before them, sit from, and then I'll carry on for a little bit longer, if down, talk about these issues of class size and class that's all right with those on the other side.

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[1225] ate about those kids as any others. I don't want there to I know the member for Shuswap is very anxious to be any misunderstanding about that. The issue is about hear more. how you address the diversity within the room, whether it be language, physical infirmity…. Whatever Interjection. it may be, you can't do that unless you have resources. Teachers in this province, represented by their un- J. Horgan: "Bring it on," he says. It goes as follows: ion, have been appealing to this government for over "I'm appalled by the actions of this government, who three years. "Take the opportunity," they've said. We've decided to legislate us back to work again." My friend said it today in this amendment. Take the opportunity, from Kingsway very eloquently outlined the six times and let's sit down together cooperatively, and let's see since 2001 that this government has legislated activi- if we can solve some of these problems. Let's see if we ties and actions against this body in society, this can raise up the kids in our classroom. Let's see if we group of individuals. "Don't they realize that in their can improve outcomes, not just teaching to tests, as the quest to damage and to degrade our profession for Minister of Education likes to say we're doing. Rather, the sake of privatization of our schools, they are hurt- she doesn't say that, but that's in fact what we are doing children?" ing. Let's not just look at the performance measure- Now, I want to stop on that point for a moment, ments, as the Premier is so proud of. Let's look at the because I've said on a number of occasions as I've human beings. Let's look at the human beings that are been speaking over the hours here that I don't for a in the gallery today, that are out on the front steps, that minute think that the people on that side of the House are walking with teachers in front of their schools to- don't want to achieve one of their golden goals. I be- day. Let's look at them and see what they want, how lieve sincerely that they do. It's all a matter of how we can improve their lives. you skin the cat, and we on this side of the House are I've read some quotations from the newspaper. of the view that the best way to achieve positive out- Students, teachers, individuals passionate about this comes, as my leader has said during the campaign, debate, passionate about this issue — they are appeal- during the months that we've been here, is to sit ing to us to take the opportunity. They are appealing to down, be respectful, seek consensus, be balanced, us to do the right thing. give a little, take a little. The outcome is that every- [1230] body wins. I will not say win-win beyond referring to I said earlier this morning, at a time I can't recall, not ever saying it again, but the matter is, as I look that we have a lot of bright people in this room, Mr. down at my paper, that the only way for all parties to Speaker — you foremost among them, of course. That's benefit from an agreement is if you sit down and you why you're in that chair. But those on that side of the give a little and you take a little. Everybody under- House, those in the executive council, those that have stands that. the weighty decisions before them, should just pause I am presently teaching a grade-four classroom wherein I for a moment and put down what they're doing and have 30 students squished in a room where there is not enough space for my own desk. My classroom composi- what they're thinking about — they have very impor- tion includes a child with the intellect of a three-year-old tant decisions to make and very important things to do who likes to run away from the classroom, one student la- — and think about the people. I know that's why they belled as violent who must constantly be watched so that got involved in politics. I don't know a person of any he doesn't hurt the other students and seven other students party in any community in any place in this country who are way below grade expectations and who will re- that didn't get involved because it was something quire individual education plans. Let's not forget the two about people. They wanted to make their community gifted students who should be getting enrichment. better. They wanted to make their neighbourhood bet- So composition of a class is absolutely crucial, and ter. They wanted to make their province better. They I've had the benefit of discussions with my friend from wanted to make their country better, and we all agreed Vancouver-Kensington and my friend from North that the foundation of making this a better place is hav- Coast, former teachers, former professionals in their ing the best education system in North America, bar area. They have advised me of the importance of this none. We all agree on that. issue. I have spoken about my children, with their role What we want to do on this side of the House is in the classroom and how they fit. My friend from involve all parties — the front-line workers, the teach- Cowichan-Ladysmith is passionate about education. ers, the people that we entrust our children to each and Those on this side of the House have been informing every day, year after year. We want them involved. We me about what it's like to be in a room with 30-plus want them to be active, vibrant participants, welcomed kids, some of them severely challenged. by those that are funding the programs, those on the But you know what? When they talk about those other side, those in the executive council. severely challenged kids, they do it with a bit of sorrow that they can't spend enough time with them. They [1235] don't have the resources in the classroom to ensure that With that, I would like to appeal again to my col- those kids can turn around situations, if it's a behav- leagues. I want to thank them for their support over the ioural issue, that they can lift them up, if it's a question course of the past number of hours, and I would like to of mental illness or a disability…. They are as passion- sit down.

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Mr. Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, I'll call the Les Richmond Bell motion on the amendment. Bennett van Dongen Roddick Hayer Lee Jarvis Amendment negatived on the following division: Nuraney Whittred Horning

Cantelon Thorpe Hagen YEAS — 27 Oppal de Jong Campbell

Taylor Bond Abbott S. Simpson Fleming Farnworth Penner Neufeld Coleman James Kwan Brar Hogg Sultan Hawkins B. Simpson Cubberley Hammell Krueger Lekstrom Mayencourt Coons Thorne Puchmayr Polak Hawes Yap Gentner Routley Fraser MacKay Black McIntyre Horgan Dix Bains Rustad Robertson Karagianis Ralston

Krog Chudnovsky Chouhan NAYS — 27 Wyse Sather Conroy

S. Simpson Fleming Farnworth NAYS — 43 James Kwan Brar

B. Simpson Cubberley Hammell Falcon Reid Coell Coons Thorne Puchmayr Ilich Chong Christensen Gentner Routley Fraser Les Richmond Bell Horgan Dix Bains Bennett van Dongen Roddick Robertson Karagianis Ralston Hayer Lee Jarvis Krog Chudnovsky Chouhan Nuraney Whittred Horning Wyse Sather Conroy Cantelon Thorpe Hagen Oppal de Jong Campbell Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, I move that Bill 12 Taylor Bond Abbott be referred to a Committee of the Whole House for Penner Neufeld Coleman consideration at the next sitting. Hogg Sultan Hawkins Krueger Lekstrom Mayencourt Bill 12, Teachers' Collective Agreement Act, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole Polak Hawes Yap House for consideration at the next sitting of the House MacKay Black McIntyre after today. Rustad Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, before we adjourn, I'd Mr. Speaker: Minister of Labour closes debate. like to echo the sentiments expressed by several members in relation to the extraordinary, efficient and cour- Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, with thanks to teous service we've received from staff during this members who participated in the debate and their strenuous period. We sometimes take for granted that comments, I move second reading of Bill 12. the staff and the Sergeant-at-Arms and the dining room [1240] and Hansard will automatically be available, but I know the members will appreciate that the staff's re- Mr. Speaker: Members, is it agreed that the time sources are sometimes considerably stretched, yet they will be waived? still manage to accommodate. I'm certain that all members will again join in extending our sincere apprecia- Motion approved. tion to all who assist and work in the Legislative As- sembly. Second reading of Bill 12 approved on the following division: Hon. M. de Jong moved adjournment of the House.

M. Farnworth: I just want to make a few comments YEAS — 43 at this point on the motion. It is an interesting motion. We will be supporting it. We did not vote in favour of Falcon Reid Coell the original motion to get us to this place because we Ilich Chong Christensen felt there were other mechanisms to deal with the bill,

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 719 but be that as it may, when we went into this debate homes tax is under…. I'm seeing lots of heads shaking and passed the original motion, time stood still. It was here. I actually am here to ask some questions about Thursday, and it has been Thursday now for quite a the SAFER program. I did see some reference to manu- long time. With the passage of this motion we will now factured homes here, and I do know the minister is enter the real world, and it will be Friday. responsible for seniors, so is the SAFER program in fact [Applause.] under your jurisdiction? The minister may clap, but the fact is, when we pass…. Hon. I. Chong: This may go along faster than we expect. The SAFER program is the responsibility of the Min- An Hon. Member: His birthday is over. ister Responsible for Housing, so certainly, he will have information the member may wish to peruse, there. M. Farnworth: His birthday is over, and we then have to deal with the realities of what we have done M. Karagianis: Then can the minister clarify for this Thursday. me…? The "Seniors'" designation covers what aspects of seniors living? Motion approved. Hon. I. Chong: The area of seniors living would be Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until under the Minister Responsible for Housing, as well, one o'clock today. along with assisted living, housing, things of that nature. This ministry as the Ministry Responsible for Sen- The House adjourned at 12:45 p.m. iors' Issues will work across government with issues that affect seniors — as I say, on a cross-government, cross-ministerial basis — in order to ensure, when looking at programs and services and various ministries, that the seniors perspective is also considered. PROCEEDINGS IN THE As the member is aware, government supports a DOUGLAS FIR ROOM variety of programs and services as well as legislation for seniors in British Columbia. What's most exciting, Committee of Supply of course, is the recent announcement of the Premier's Council on Aging and Seniors Issues, where 18 mem- ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF bers from the public who are interested in seniors is- COMMUNITY SERVICES AND sues will come together, will tour the province as well MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR as have meetings in Vancouver, and will have a dia- SENIORS' AND WOMEN'S ISSUES logue at the Wosk Centre, where people will be able to (continued) come and engage as to what issues are important to seniors. The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); D. Issues such as transportation, housing and health Hayer in the chair. will be raised, and while those are areas of responsibility in other ministries, it still needs the collaboration The committee met at 3:11 p.m. with my ministry to be able to help provide support for that council and bring things together. That's how our On Vote 20: ministry operations, $233,686,000 (con- ministry will be able to seek out that information: to tinued). see what recommendations come out of this council and to then advance them through the various minis- Hon. I. Chong: Before I begin, I would certainly tries and ensure that these recommendations will be welcome the participation of additional members from considered. the opposition, and I want to very quickly reintroduce staff, in the event that they were not able to hear who M. Karagianis: I'm intrigued, actually, by the idea was here earlier today. On my left I have Assistant of an advisory body on seniors issues. Does the minis- Deputy Minister Dale Wall. To my right is Deputy try see itself as an advocate on behalf of seniors? Is that Minister Sheila Wynn; Barbara Walman, assistant dep- one role you would actually agree may be under your uty minister for women's, seniors' and community ser- responsibilities? vices; and Shauna Brouwer, assistant deputy minister, management services division. Hon. I. Chong: In fact, all ministries will — because seniors touch every ministry. I believe that all ministers M. Karagianis: I have a few questions here that will be advocates in the sense that the programs they pertain to seniors and that may or may not actually deliver that affect seniors need to take into considera- come under this minister's jurisdiction, so please cor- tion their unique and special needs. What we're able to rect me if in fact you are unable to answer these. do in this ministry is work across government to en- I do know that part of the ministry responsibilities sure that those unique and special opportunities are extend to manufactured homes, and manufactured not forgotten.

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[1515] webpage. Their backgrounds are all listed there. They We know that seniors are the fastest-growing popula- are planning a seniors congress in Vancouver at the tion in British Columbia. It was startling when I found out end of the month. I know they are busily working now. that one in four of us will be seniors in the not too distant They are going to invite people to come to speak to future — that we'll be looking at that. So we do need to them on a number of issues. Then they are going to go take a look at ways to support seniors and support sen- around the province. I don't have all the locations, be- iors' independence. It means looking at the ability of sen- cause I know they are still developing the agenda as to iors to stay in their homes longer. It doesn't just mean where they want to visit. I'm sure they are going to the looking at healthy lifestyles and nutrition. It means ensur- north and to other parts of the Island, to other parts of ing that if there's fall prevention, actions and initiatives the northeast sector, the northwest sector, the southern that can be taken, we will look at that. It means looking at part and southeast part of the province to get a good the issue of mandatory retirement as well. flavour of the kinds of issues that each community These are not restricted, by any means, to any one min- wishes to raise with them. That is taking place now. istry. However, it is important that as cross-government, we The website that we have on the seniors council, I address the needs of the aging population and that we can believe, should be updated. For people who have an coordinate that, and my ministry will be able to do that. I interest in issues for seniors, they can write to the believe there is a council or a committee of deputy minis- council, they can phone, or they can fax information, ters, as well, who meet on a regular basis to see how cross- submissions — or e-mail submissions. They wouldn't ministerially, cross-governmentally, these things can be be able to phone. They are very, very busy on the road. discussed and advanced. I hope that provides more infor- Submissions will be received, and all that will be taken mation to the member. into account. Again, if the member would like the fax or e-mail, we can provide that information to her, but I M. Karagianis: Yes, it does somewhat. Now, the think it is on the webpage as well. advisory body that the minister has discussed — is that, at this point, being put together? Is there an op- M. Karagianis: Thank you very much. That would be portunity for seniors to step forward and volunteer to very useful. I have a number of seniors who have been sit on this body? speaking to me about the SAFER program, and I'm trying to find ways to direct them to information and, I guess, to Hon. I. Chong: The seniors council on aging was an outlet for reporting their experiences. announced in April of this year, and the call went out So the seniors council is going through a process of to everyone in the province who was interested in sen- outreach of consultation all over the province, and iors issues, so not just seniors could have applied to be there's going to be a report or some process for making on this council. I want to make that very clear, because this information available once it's been collected, is we have people who are not seniors but who are inter- there? ested in seniors issues. That call went out across the [1520] province, and applications were sent in. What we found, though, in probably early June, Hon. I. Chong: Yes. The council has determined in just shortly after the election, when we took a look at order to do their work they need a full year to go out to all the applications, was that those who sent in their do the outreach, as the member has indicated, and they resumes and showed their interest were heavily con- will be coming back to government with recommenda- centrated in the lower mainland and Victoria, for obvi- tions that they would like government to consider and ous reasons. We have the largest density of population. possibly to advance. So we certainly will be waiting for What we did was we extended the deadline for people those recommendations. I believe Dr. Baird has indi- who were interested until July, again encouraging cated that it will be in the fall of next year, but I'm sure more people to send in their interest and their back- that she will, from time to time, be in contact with us to ground. An overwhelming response — about 220 ap- let us know how things are going. I'm sure the submis- plications came in. Well, you can't have a council with sions that she receives and any reporting that she can 220 people on it, as we well know. make, if she's able to do so, will certainly be made Dr. Patricia Baird, who was appointed to the chair available to the public, but the actual recommendations and is a well-known adviser on seniors issues who has that she brings back to the government have been advised the World Health Organization, decided that it timed to be next fall. would be best to have a council that was workable. The number that she came up with was 18. She went M. Karagianis: The recommendations that are coming through all these resumes. She read them all and back then will have some influence on government's deci- looked at everyone's background and tried to reflect sions around anything affecting seniors — from legisla- the province in many ways — in backgrounds, in edu- tion, through policies, through funding and that kind of cation, in ethnicity, representation in urban areas and thing? Is that the expectation of the minister? rural, remote areas, so that it wasn't heavily concentrated in Victoria and Vancouver. Hon. I. Chong: Well, I don't want to speculate on The council…. I believe the press release went out what may or may not come back. What I do know is on Monday as to who has been appointed. It is on our that as a result of the council reaching out, bringing in

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 721 expert witnesses — for a lack of better term — and hav- ince for how it's going to be divided? You can obvi- ing them report to the council and having the council ously see communities that may need it. have interaction with people who come and present, it will certainly allow them to broaden what they believe Hon. I. Chong: Perhaps if I could just provide the is their approach to looking at seniors issues. member with a little bit of background on community Sometimes we, as legislators and those elected, hear transition, that might help, as well, in understanding. from our constituents, and rightfully so, and we hear The community transition services exist to assist com- on a more narrow focus. We think we hear broadly, but munities largely dependent on a single resource indus- we actually do hear more narrowly than what would try that may be facing any severe economic dislocation. otherwise take place. With this council, as I've indi- Because of that, these are dealt with on a case-by-case cated, they will be able to bring in people — experts — situation, on a case-by-case basis. who may give presentations on what is happening They do take into consideration a number of fac- across Canada, even in other parts of the world. I think tors. For that reason, dollars are not allocated based on that will be very valuable. any one region, any one area, because you don't know Those recommendations, however they are brought at the beginning of the year what may occur. What you forward, certainly will come to government. We will do want to do, though, is have some dollars available have a look at them and have an opportunity to see should the need arise. In some cases, if you are there to whether those fit in with the ability to…. Some things work with a particular community very quickly, you may be able to be acted on quickly; others may not. may be able to mitigate costs fairly quickly and help Again, I can't speculate on what it may be, but I'm that community. looking forward to hearing from them. Community transition studies are often provided or assist with providing a grant. That can also take place M. Karagianis: This question may already have so a community can actually plan. When they know been asked, so I'm sorry if this is repetitious. Are there they're going through some rather difficult times, they some resources put towards this council? Is there some can plan on seeing how that community is going to funding, and how much funding has been put towards look after that circumstance occurs and how the town, this process? the village, the community may want to diversify or what options that are available to them. Transition dol- Hon. I. Chong: We have allocated some funding for lars are available to provide for studies, as well, to as- the council to support the council. I believe around sist those local communities. $500,000 has been made available, in addition to sup- [1530] port by ministry staff. If Dr. Baird and other members of council want to call in and ask for administrative C. Trevena: I'm specifically interested in Port Alice. supports, that certainly will be made available to them. I know there has been transition funding for the 2004- 2005 tax year — the $119,000 that was announced a few C. Trevena: Minister, I wanted to ask you specific weeks ago. issues on transition funding. I just wanted to make sure There are two possible scenarios still there. One is that in the service plan, is this under the section "Strong that the specialty cellulose mill reopens, and one is that and Healthy Communities"? it doesn't reopen. Obviously, there are two things to [1525] look at. If you can look at scenario one — best case, the mill reopens. Because the mill hasn't been opened this Hon. I. Chong: I apologize to the member. I just year, under the 2005 tax bill the village will face a wanted to make sure. I do believe I understand where shortfall of approximately $950,000, just a bit less out of her question is going when she mentions transition its total tax bill. I wondered whether this amount of dollars. There are transition houses that we deal with, assistance is already earmarked for Port Alice or if it's as well as community transition. I'm quite sure she's still there as a possible that hasn't been earmarked. referring to community transition. The dollars there are allocated out of the local government grants programs. Hon. I. Chong: Again, I thank the member for rais- The community transition program is where that is ing some of these issues because I know she has a keen situated. interest, obviously. The province has already this year provided an interim transition grant to the village of C. Trevena: Do you have a provincial figure for Port Alice in the amount of $819,000. I know she is this? aware of that, and I understand she probably will have spoken to the mayor, as have I on several occasions. Hon. I. Chong: I'm informed that approximately $1 I think it would be inappropriate to speculate as to million has been set aside for community transition. what may happen, because the Minister of Economic Some years none of that amount is required; some Development is still working very closely with the years all of it is required. mayor and with the interested parties on assisting Port Alice and seeing how we can help that community. C. Trevena: I wondered if you have any set aside While we're waiting for that decision, this ministry will yet in specific areas, or are you still looking at the prov- continue to provide assistance to the village insofar as

722 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 supporting them, working with them to build on local town that she's had a chance to peruse and canvass this opportunities just to ensure that they can continue on- area in the estimates — that our intention is to continue wards. to work with the village, to continue to find ways to It is early, and it is premature to talk about what assist them along. As circumstances change, we will would be available in the future, simply because we also change with those circumstances to see how we don't set up, I guess, a program that is designed to take can assist in every way possible. a look at situations where the worst-case scenario could occur. You want to ensure that you are able to deal C. Trevena: I don't want to seem to belabour the with situations as they arise and, of course, on a case- point on this, but this isn't a matter of speculation. As I by-case basis. say, we are already halfway through the tax year. We have said we're willing to assist where appro- There is no way that the village is going to be able to priate. We're willing to find ways to help the town meet its tax bill for the next year, because the main con- move forward. We'll continue to do that. I know there tributor to its taxes hasn't been operating. We're not has been quite a lot of anxiety in the town, and I appre- speculating here, and we're not looking at a worst-case ciate the fact that the town and the population have scenario. We're looking at what is happening. been waiting patiently, but unfortunately, these things I just would like to see whether, as well as talking are not in our hands. We have to wait and see what a to the village and the mayor, as I know you have been prospective investor may wish ultimately to do. doing — I know you've been working very closely — you have yet budgeted to help the village on its ex- C. Trevena: I understand, obviously, that you don't pected, predicted and really definite shortfall in taxes want to jump the gun, but we are already coming to- this year. ward…. Well, we're halfway through the 2005 financial year. The mill hasn't been operating all this year. It's Hon. I. Chong: Again, I would like to assure the quite clear that the village is going to have a shortfall in member that the transition program and the planning its tax base this year. that has taken place do allow for flexibility. What that Working on the best-case scenario that the Ministry means is that we will continue to work with the village. for Economic Development negotiations work out and We are in close contact with them, and we are continu- the mill does reopen, it's still unlikely to open before ing to maintain those lines of communication. We are early in the new year, which means it won't be contrib- planning for a number of contingencies. As I say, de- uting to the local economy until into next year and pos- pending on what result occurs, it will allow us to then sibly even into the next tax year. It's quite clear the vil- work more closely with one plan versus another. It is lage is going to have a shortfall, and it's estimated that very difficult to, as I say, put us on a path where: "Well, it is going to be about $940,000 or $950,000. Just in your we know this is going to happen, and therefore this is planning you're obviously aware that this shortfall is the only solution there is." We want to have as flexible going to be there. I wonder, in your financial planning, options as possible. whether you have looked at setting aside that amount of money for Port Alice? At the UBCM last week I was able to meet with Mayor Pepper, who came in. I asked him what con- [S. Hammell in the chair.] cerns he had, and he actually was very gratified. We had staff there that he had a chance to meet, and he Hon. I. Chong: Hon. Chair, it's very good to see thanked the staff, which I thought was very nice of him you today. to do. He said that he wanted to stay working closely Again, I want to caution those who may be watch- with us, and as situations arise, we would deal with ing these proceedings to not put out expectations or to them as they progress. Again, I want to provide some speculate as to what may or may not occur. caution here. I don't want to suggest a plan that may Our ministry has been working very closely with not actually be the one for the path that we go down the village of Port Alice. There was a transition study without having the mayor involved in this at all times. that was put in place. We're continuing to address that, and we will continue to work with the mayor and with C. Trevena: Obviously, you don't want to specu- council. After November 19, if a new mayor and new late, but you have a budget of $1 million for transition council are there, we will work with them, as well, to for communities going through difficult times for re- see how we can assist the community to go forward. sources for the year. Again, this is the budget for this [1535] year, and we can see what is happening. While we It is a difficult situation. I know in some cases peo- don't want to speculate, I wanted to know how much ple want to have absolute certainty, but a number of you can put towards the transition plans. things can happen. Diversification in another area may I've seen a number of different scenarios for Port happen. To put out a foregone conclusion as to how we Alice, like you have. I know your ministry has been may assist may actually take away from opportunities working very closely with the village on this. But $1 that we might otherwise want to look at. million — when we are looking at, firstly, the tax short- I do want to give this member assurance — because fall and, secondly, the transition for the village — isn't I know she wants to be able to tell the people of her much when other communities in my own constitu-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 723 ency…. Tahsis got $900,000, and Gold River had about transitional strategies, if that's what they would like to $6½ million over five years. do. As I've indicated, we certainly will consider further I wanted to know what proportion of that million assistance and funding if that is what's required to help dollars you could commit to putting towards a transi- the village make a successful transition. tion plan for Port Alice. Again, I don't think it would be appropriate or [1540] prudent to suggest a specific dollar amount, because I think that would take away from the opportunity for Hon. I. Chong: Again, I would like to provide some us to work with the village on what other transitional background for the member. In addition to the $819,000 strategies that may take place. that was forwarded, I think, on August 31 or September 1 [1545] to the village — the interim transition funding that went Circumstances can change, and the request that the to them — there were dollars provided for a transition mayor and council may put forth could be quite differ- study, about $45,000; another $50,000 on the viability of ent, or the request for assistance could be quite differ- the pulp mill, in terms of the condition of the site; and ent. What we have said, though, because we do want to another $50,000 there. A substantial amount of money has help, is that we would certainly consider further assis- been provided to help the community, to let them know tance. Again, we need to wait and see what that may that we are very concerned about their future. be, and the mayor and council will then certainly con- The allocation in our budget is there, as I say, as a tact our ministry and present what that may be. I hope place in the year. You never know what can happen that's helpful for the member. around the province. Some years the requests for community transition may never exist because all the C. Trevena: If this has to happen, and the mayor resource towns are doing particularly well. In some comes forward and the council comes forward with a years that may not happen. So we do have the $1 mil- transition plan, how much direction do you give in the lion that was set aside, and much of it has been used. way the money is spent? Or is it just a sum that is given In the event that we need to go beyond that, gov- to the village that they can use in the way they see ernment also has a global contingency budget where best? ministries can make a presentation and basically ask for additional dollars to provide for circumstances that Hon. I. Chong: As I've indicated, to be specific were not anticipated. Of course, we don't anticipate our would not be particularly productive or constructive, towns and our villages going through situations like so perhaps it may be helpful to provide the member this, and should that be necessary, we certainly would with what has happened in other situations such as be able to access this. But the last thing you would Gold River, Tahsis and Tumbler Ridge. Every situation want to do is put a budget forward that has $4 million, is different, and that's why we deal with it on a case- $5 million or $7 million for community transition, with by-case basis. In some cases you assist the community an expectation that that's what you will want to see by helping retire some of their municipal debt. In some happening around the province. cases they require transition dollars to help with eco- Dollars are set aside. Oftentimes it's sufficient, and nomic diversification, and in some cases you help them in cases where it's not, we certainly will make a case to adjust to the loss of the tax base. ask for some of government's global contingency funds So every situation will be different. It could be a to be provided to assist a town, if we need to do that. combination of these. It could be one of these areas. Again, it is important that we are able to sit down with C. Trevena: I just wanted to pick up on a couple of the village to find out exactly what they would like in things there before I move on. The $45,000 — that was terms of assistance from our ministry and from this for the transition study, was it? The $50,000 was, if we government. can just go…. In terms of the report…. The other It also requires that we work with other agencies $50,000 was for the NLK report? where they may be applicable — other ministries. It Okay. My concern is that the Port Alice situation is may also involve the federal government at times. As I something that in many ways can be predicted. It can say, every case is different. Every situation is unique, be predicted in two scenarios: one is that the mill goes and we need to have that flexibility and that latitude to ahead; one is that it doesn't. work through the difficult time that is there. We have really got time to prepare the worst-case Again, I want to assure the people of Port Alice that scenario of a good, solid transition. I know that you are this government is willing to continue to work to find working with the mayor and council on this, but I really some way of helping that move along. We will depend just wanted to have some indication of what level you're largely on dealing with the mayor who obviously is a looking at. I mean, the transition that the mayor has been spokesperson for that. looking at is small-scale. It's industrial parks, marinas and so on. I just wondered what proportion of a million dol- N. Macdonald: We'll just jump back to where we lars you think Port Alice would be getting. left off some hours ago. So the mission then is to promote and sustain economically viable communities. Hon. I. Chong: As I've indicated, our ministry will What we were talking about is one of the vehicles that in fact continue to work with the village on additional you have for that, which is new for me, which is the

724 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005

Community Charter. You've described that it's a two- government, they're having to deal with? One that year process that you went through. you'd be familiar with from the UBCM was around just We've also described some of the changes that are the social services, the welfare and some of the systems in there from the old Municipal Act, which I may have that are in place which local governments have said been familiar with. Just coming back to that then, you they're having difficulty dealing with. Is there any had said there aren't a lot of vehicles for raising addi- thought within this plan as to how community services tional moneys. I think the last thing I talked about was would deal with that? Bill 55, and it's around the railway taxation. Just to come to that again: were there any changes? Hon. I. Chong: The member raises issues that deal [1550] with particular ministries. I would have to ask him to I just remember that the present member for defer to those ministries. — Shuswap when he was in local government and I [1555] know that he acted as the minister here — was very In the context of the question that he posed in terms much against that imposition. I just wonder: when he of local governments and their responsibility to their was the minister, were there any changes to the taxa- citizens, there was for a time some rather large and tion on Bill 55? significant decreases to grants to local governments. It

occurred at a time when I think the member was on Hon. I. Chong: Back to the Community Charter. I council. I was certainly here when I heard those de- just want to make it clear, in case we have new people bates, when there were municipal grants that had been viewing this, regarding what the discussion was this severely decreased. morning about the Community Charter. After the two- year-long process of consultation that took place, it was In 2001 when we were elected, we made a com- agreed upon — it was not a unilateral decision from mitment that we would not further decrease those mu- — — government — with mayors and the Community Char- nicipal grants those unconditional grants so ter Council and all those who participated that provid- we've maintained that. But we also said what we ing additional tax-raising or tax revenue goals were not would do in working with municipalities and local to be included in the charter. governments was try to find ways to partner with them I know the member knows that, but I just wanted to to help them move their communities along. One of make it clear. It wasn't something that we said: "Oh, those was the traffic fine revenue-sharing. Again, these you don't get to raise revenues." It was something that are dollars that have traditionally come into the pro- was agreed upon. vincial government and were never made available to It was certainly an area that first sparked a lot of local governments. We said: "We'd like to return 75 interest, but at the end of the day, when the Commu- percent of that to you so that you can deal with making nity Charter was agreed upon and the legislation was your communities safer, looking at crime prevention brought in, it did not bring in those taxing powers. strategies or initiatives, whether it's hiring more police That was certainly done by consensus. officers…. You decide what you think works best for Bill 55, as the member has raised, was a bill that you and address those local needs." was introduced in either '96 or '97. I have to apologize. I think everyone was surprised in 2004 when the I'm not as familiar with the circumstances surrounding Premier announced that we were going to surpass that. the debate on that, but it was introduced back in the Rather than the 75 percent return, we would actually '90s. The short answer to the member's question on increase that, and 100 percent of traffic fine revenues whether we changed any part of it is no. were returned. I know municipalities are still looking at how to put N. Macdonald: I have a number of questions on in strategies and initiatives that work. Again, by work- that, but overall there really hasn't been an increase in ing with local government, giving them opportunities, the ability to tax. we're looking at how through UBCM we can empower What comes — and here again the language…. our local governments. The $25 million for the tourism Sometimes when people describe it, they talk about strategy is meant to go out to our local governments for downloading. Perhaps that's an inappropriate term, them to build economic opportunities, because tourism but in terms of…. There are some things that communi- is one of our fastest-growing industries, in their various ties feel are additional costs that create problems for and respective communities. them. If within the Community Charter there aren't We also worked very hard to ensure that we were abilities to raise more money, then is there some the first province to sign this new deal for cities and thought in terms of whether it's…? It wouldn't be communities agreement-in-principle, and that was through this ministry necessarily, but within the man- significant. We should really take pride in that, because date here you talk about — perhaps advocacy isn't the every other province in Canada looked to us to be the right word — working with other ministries to try to leaders, to have that new deal put in place. It's $635.6 meet some of those needs. million over five years coming back to local govern- Can I just ask you about some of the things that ments as a result of the work that was done, and I ap- people have asked about — about programs that used plaud the work and the dedication of the people on the to be in place and that now they're finding, as local UBCM executive. The Premier and my predecessors

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 725 were there to ink the deal to have the agreement-in- lars they would have to raise through their property principle put in place. taxes, as we all know. By providing these dollars, they As I mentioned at UBCM, the beauty of these dol- are able to move on these initiatives a lot quicker. lars is that they are not even required to be matched. We're very happy to see them do that. The local governments will be able to access these dollars to do more in their communities, to build on infra- N. Macdonald: Again, if I'm sitting in a small com- structure — cleaner air, cleaner water, their transporta- munity, how do you figure out how much each commu- tion systems — that they feel they want to work on. I'm nity gets? I apologize if I missed that, but what's the for- very pleased about that. mula for allocation? What does Vancouver get, how do We continue to look at ways to help our local com- they decide it, and what does Revelstoke get? munities, as I say, by ensuring that we have not re- — duced the grants providing other dollars through Hon. I. Chong: I will specifically read it out, be- — UBCM and that they can do things such as emer- cause it's a bit complex. gency preparedness. We've provided dollars for sen- The traffic fine revenue-sharing grants are allocated us- iors housing to UBCM so that they can ask local gov- ing the formula described in section 8.1 of the local governments to participate in that. We have the commu- ernment grants regulations. The budget amount is dis- nity health promotion program and just a variety of tributed to municipalities in accordance to the ratio of a things so local governments feel more than ever that municipality's policing costs to aggregate municipal po- they can participate in a variety of areas and see that licing costs in the previous years. Municipalities under their communities can grow. I hope that's helpful to the 5,000 are currently excluded from the transfer, as the member. provinces do pay already 100 percent of police costs in those jurisdictions. Municipalities are responsible for supplying their police costs to the Ministry of Public N. Macdonald: Then just to understand the local Safety and Solicitor General. government. You have talked about the traffic fines Perhaps what would best serve is if the member wants and the revenue. Really, what I am interested to hear is breakdowns and details as to specific communities, per- just an understanding about the revenue side of it. haps his own communities…. We could provide that in- Could you just take some time and first go through the formation, if that's what he would like. Again, I would amount of money that's generated — you probably suggest that he can avail himself of our staff, who may have that figure right there — and then just a descrip- want to show him specifically how that formula works so tion of what the formula is for allocation of the funds? that he has that permanently in his memory.

Hon. I. Chong: Perhaps it's easier that I read it for N. Macdonald: Just as a review, what are the your benefit, rather than describe it generally. "The documents you are sending me so far? I don't know if program has placed an additional $70 million into the you've kept a list of the things that you've said you are municipal system to improve public safety and polic- going to send. I very much appreciate you sending ing. Municipalities will not be constrained in how they those things, but maybe at the end I could see the list of use these funds." It was made quite clear that the funds things you intend to send. are intended to provide additional resources to make communities safer. Continuing with that, the Community Charter is [1600] described within the document as the most enabling In that regard we did ask the Union of B.C. Mu- framework for local government in Canada. The main nicipalities to survey a number of the municipalities to parts are always going to be around money. This is $70 find out exactly what was happening. They have indi- million, and it's distributed to communities based on a cated, for the most part, that they are using those dol- formula that I understand. You had talked about the lars as was intended; 75 percent indicated that they're communities that so far are not paying for policing. using these funds to hire new police officers or staff, to There is going to be a change to that? Perhaps you build new facilities or to address the increasing costs of could describe what you foresee happening and some specialized police services. of the rationale behind it. Is that still being considered? Over half of them have indicated that all or a Here I'm talking about the communities below 5,000 portion of the traffic fine revenue-sharing funds that currently would not pay for policing. were used to address increasing costs of delivering police services. Another third of them indicated that Hon. I. Chong: To the first question, regarding the they were using these revenue-sharing funds to ex- list of items that we've agreed to send to the member, pand services in the community, such as a new co- we have been keeping a list. But in the event that we ordinator for crime prevention programs, establish- missed anything, Hansard is always there, so we'll ing a safer community program, and implementing check everything we've said and make sure you have new strategies to combat vandalism and drug prob- all that information. lems in the community. [1605] That's just sort of a brief overview on how they're Again, the offer remains open to yourself or any using those dollars. Those are things you would expect other of your colleagues who would ask to have infor- the community to do. Normally, those would be dol- mation provided. Staff are very gracious and always

726 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 excited to share with members any information that the main thing is to get more money, you know? So if they want to have. it's the most enabling, should that not be revisited and The policing costs. I know the member knows this, given a few more tools in terms of how you would because we both, having been on council, have heard generate funds for a municipality? this time and time. It goes back a dozen years to when I was around on council. For those small communities Hon. I. Chong: It is always helpful to hear from with policing who are under 5,000 or over 5,000, that representatives and MLAs who represent small com- has been a discussion that has taken place, as I say, for munities, and it is also very important for small com- certainly more than one decade. It will continue, be- munities to continue to dialogue with our government cause the last thing you want is a community to stop so that we can address some of the needs and concerns growing — not to hit 5,001 just because they're worried that they have. about policing. I want to just very briefly remind the member — I There has been a lot of debate at UBCM and at am sure he heard this at UBCM, but in the event he various associations on how to accommodate that. I didn't — that when the Premier gave a speech, he did believe that there was some work done in terms of al- indicate that small community protection grants were lowing communities to transition into paying a share of going to be doubled over the next four years. That will those costs. When that happens, then the traffic fine be one way of assisting small communities, helping revenue- sharing will be able, I'm sure, to work into a them in ways that they had otherwise not been able to formula of that. Unfortunately, I'm not able to share provide for their citizens and their communities. So with the member what specifically may or may not that's important. occur, because that discussion and those consultations [1610] have taken place and have been occurring with the I do want to disagree in the most respectful way Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General, because with the member. While the Community Charter is he has responsibility for policing as a whole here in the absolutely enabling, it wasn't designed, or it wasn't province. desired by all those who participated in its form, to be If I could ask the member to direct those specific enabling. The one tool that they wanted was to increase questions to the Solicitor General, he may have some opportunities to raise revenues. I want to stress that, more specific answers that he can receive. again, while revenue-sharing or revenue-raising was certainly raised at the very beginning of the debate, by N. Macdonald: Thanks for the offer of information. the end of the debate, mayors, local communities and For the communities that are smaller, the change to stakeholders who had a say in how it was to be devel- paying for community policing needs is going to be oped realized this was not necessarily the best way to significant, yet within the Community Charter there go. They said we needed to think of other ways to en- doesn't seem to be a tremendous amount of ability to able our communities, other partnerships that we raise money other than through property taxation. I might be able to explore. realize the decision will be made in a different minis- We have to remember at all times that there really try, but it's something you certainly are cognizant of — is only one taxpayer, and just because you have three that it creates a hardship for property owners in these or four levels of government, you don't necessarily small communities. Within my riding there are three of want everyone to have an ability to continue to raise or them. There is also one community that is paying com- impose new taxes. That's the message that I believe pletely for a police officer to come there. They're just came out of the Community Charter when it was de- doing that out of their tax base. veloped. Just continuing with costs, and once again it's a cost The charter was designed to be enabling, designed that perhaps is outside of your area, but it impacts on to look at creative, innovative ways to allow communi- some of the goals that you have within this area, and ties to explore economic development, to take a look at that's around diking. There used to be grants available. having memorandums of understanding that can be I think it was through the Ministry of Environment; signed, maybe tripartite with the federal government nevertheless, it's something that municipalities bene- and provincial government as well, to ensure that these fited from. There is no ability to raise additional money can be accommodated. other than through the finite tools that are there and It's enabling in that way, and it provides avenues that have really always been there. If the province is for communities to at least get out to their citizens and not participating with the funding of diking — I think consult and then to approach various levels of gov- it used to be up to 75 percent — while you could…. ernment to work together and have new partnerships. That's what I think it is. I think that we received 75 Infrastructure grants and infrastructure programs percent, and we would pay 25 percent. are always at the heart of three-way partnerships, and Now, while it wasn't through your ministry, there we will continue to work with the federal government would certainly be a feeling that that's a download to ensure that British Columbia receives its share of because, of course, it needs to be done. There are costs infrastructure dollars as well. that didn't used to be there. I guess it comes back to the Community Charter N. Macdonald: Just coming back, though, to the and if it's the most enabling framework. It just seems language. I mean, the language is there within the ser-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 727 vice plan. While local government would be just as What we did hear, when the Community Charter cognizant of the need to be careful with raising legislation was being prepared and being drafted, was money…. Nevertheless, if you're talking about em- that — again, at the very beginning — that was actually powering local government, certainly the impression I what some mayors thought should happen. They had when I left, when it was still in the conversation thought this would be an opportune time for them to stage, is that was going to be an important component have the broadest of powers to raise taxes. But at the of the new Community Charter. end of the discussion, having heard from stakeholders Now over time — it's a two-year process — I real- around the province and their own citizens, they realized that changed. Nevertheless, costs continue to ac- ized this was not the tool that they necessarily wanted. crue for local government. We've talked about policing That is one of the reasons why the Community Charter for some smaller communities, and that's a real cost did not provide that. that homeowners or businesses will bear. However, they did say that in some cases, they We've talked about diking. The fact is that diking were in a position…. Some communities were in a po- needs to be done. Instead of paying 25 percent, and a sition to implement fees that were unique to their area, different level of government that taxes differently and if that's what they wanted to do, that's what they paying 75 percent, you are going to have communities could do, and that's how we broadened that. paying 100 percent. Again, if I've misunderstood the member, certainly The other one would be around courthouses. Many I apologize, but if what he has proposed is that we of the communities in my area have purchased the need to change the charter so that municipalities can courthouses. They've done that whether that's a wise raise taxes, then I would have to disagree, because thing to do or not. It's just like hiring a policeman. that's not what we heard when the charter was being Those are the decisions that communities have made, prepared and drafted. and yet they don't really have tools to get more money. N. Macdonald: No, you have misunderstood, be- Maybe a question around taxation, again, and cause the problem is…. For homeowners and for busi- maybe about something you had considered. With nesses the reality is that their taxes will go up if they're utilities — is there any thought around taxation for picking up costs — for policing or for doing dikes — local government on utilities, about a grant-in-lieu that that used to come in a different way. So what I'm talk- would…? Is there something in place about it rising at ing about is: what are other ways of looking at raising a particular rate? Is there the possibility of taxation? those funds? They're necessary. They used to come What sort of things have you talked about in terms of from the province, and they don't now. That's what giving communities more power? we're talking about. Of course, we're both mindful of [1615] the fact that every bit of money you take is painful to the person that it's being taken from. Nevertheless, Hon. I. Chong: Again I would like to advise that there are set costs. our government has in many ways added more reve- It really is more of a question about the statement. nues to local governments in ways of partnerships It's the most enabling framework for local governance, through the UBCM to provide, as I say, the revenue- and I just wonder…. The question is just about looking sharing and the traffic fines, increasing the small com- around how that statement is made. What makes it the munity grant program and bringing in infrastructure most enabling? If it's not around different sources of programs. money, then what would it be? We will continue to look at these and to work with But maybe we'll come to specifics then and look at local governments to see what new programs or what increased accountability. It talks about increased ac- new initiatives they believe that we should focus on countability. Could you just take a minute and describe and work on together. That dialogue will not end, and the increased accountability that comes with the Com- I am certainly looking forward to it when the new munity Charter? UBCM executive starts their workplan and the area [1620] associations do so as well. I just want to make sure that I'm clear on what I'm Hon. I. Chong: The member is consistent in quot- hearing from the member. Maybe he can clarify, being the Community Charter as being an enabling piece cause as he speaks about more empowering of local of legislation, which absolutely it is. Again, perhaps we communities and that the primary way of doing that is are viewing this in different ways. raising taxes…. That's not what I have been hearing Enabling is not always, as I've indicated, about hav- from local governments necessarily. When I was at ing the ability to raise more revenues, but enabling in UBCM I did not have, in the over 50 meetings I had, the sense of allowing local governments to have a local governments coming in and saying: "We need to broader range of authority whereby they can make raise taxes, so can you let us do that? And can you decisions that affect their local governments. This change the Community Charter to let us do that?" doesn't happen across Canada, where local govern- That's not what I heard. If that's what the member's ments…. In some cases their local government struc- heard, then we were clearly at two different groups of ture certainly is different, but they have broad powers meetings, I guess. and authority to make certain decisions that affect their

728 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 local communities. That is certainly meant by the ena- like it's revolutionary. I know when it started, it bling ability of this legislation, but with that does come seemed a far more revolutionary process than it has a requirement to have greater accountability, because ended up. Perhaps that's the appropriate thing; I'm not the citizens actually want that. They demand it, in or- sure. der to ensure that when we've enhanced municipal I do have a question, and I'm sure it's one that powers, they are balanced with public accountability. you've discussed a lot, around Bill 75 and how that all What that means is that councils are required to meshes. I'm positive you've had this discussion before, promote public participation in local decision-making because…. I understand the philosophical approach of that much more. It means that the new charter provides the Community Charter. Even as it's turned out, I get it. accountability tools such as mandatory annual reports Even though it's not your ministry, I don't get Bill 75 and public meetings and that councils can also go to an and how it meshes philosophically. Perhaps you could alternative approval process or referendum. I would not just take a moment to explain that. You don't have to undermine the value or understate the value of having rehash past arguments that I wasn't here for — but just those accountability tools, these annual reports. how it fits philosophically and then where you see its At UBCM we were able to make a presentation to a place in the future. municipality that won an award for having the best annual reports. Some people had a laugh at it, but I Hon. I. Chong: I thank the member for his clarifica- was quite excited about it. As an accountant, I think tion of the last comments that he made. Regarding Bill annual reports are really exciting things to see. If 75, I certainly know the member is probably as familiar they're fully disclosed and have information, they ac- with it as I was in the last number of years when the tually provide a lot to the citizenry. Having said that, I bill was introduced. As he is aware and as other mem- want to assure the member: opportunities for account- bers are aware, it was introduced as a mechanism to ability are much greater when the public also sees what override local government decisions should there be a their local decision-makers are doing. more overarching provincial interest that needed to be I want to quickly go back to some of the comments dealt with. the member made regarding the restrictions he feels That provision actually has always been available that communities have — whether they're smaller or in the Local Government Act. I recall that when the larger communities — in terms of the grants that are debate swirled around this, we made that very clear. I available. I do acknowledge that there have been some know there was some thought as to why, then, we changes, but we continue to seek out new programs, needed to bring in a piece of legislation, when in fact arrangements and partnerships wherever we can. that overriding provision was available. The Canada-B.C. Infrastructure Works program was Simply put, by having it brought forward as a piece very well received. Our B.C. community water im- of legislation, it just reinforced that there was this pro- provement program is another program very well re- vision and that if it needed to be used — should a time ceived. As I said earlier today, we made a commitment arise where we needed to use it for a provincial interest in 2001 that we would not reduce the grants to munici- — that would take place. Since it's been passed, we've palities because through the '90s quite a lot of their dol- not had to use it, as we've not had to use that section in lars had been scaled back. I believe up to $800 million of the Local Government Act. Again, it was introduced to costs had been borne by local governments as a result of allow a process that would take shape sooner in the reduced grants and elimination of services. event that we had to deal with a provincial interest that What we decided to do in 2001 is that we would may override a local decision. protect those grants. We will look at ways of partner- We've always continued to explore other ways to ing. We will have the Community Charter as a piece of work with local governments. That's why memoran- legislation that enables municipalities to look at other dums of understanding, MOUs, are often drafted, ways to diversify their towns. We continually want to wherever we can, to work together. From time to time hear, as well, from the communities as to what they we may see that this legislation may be necessary, and would like to do. UBCM is a perfect venue for that to if it is, it's in place to do so. As the member is probably take place, as well as our area associations, so I hope familiar with, it has not been used. Rarely has that sec- that is helpful to the member. tion — or, I think, never has that section — in the Local Government Act been used as well. N. Macdonald: Certainly what I'll do is take the [1630] information that you've given and I will have more of a look at it. I would say that sometimes the language, N. Macdonald: I don't want to spend a long time especially in a document that we, primarily, are going rehashing an old fight. Within the UBCM, certainly, a to read, sounds somewhat more grandiose. lot of documentation talks about seeing it differently [1625] than the…. No need to rehash that. In terms of the feedback I've had on the charter, it's In terms of language, what I think would be been generally quite positive as a document. worthwhile avoiding is just talking about the most In terms of the feedback I've had on the charter, enabling framework for local governance in Canada you know, it's been generally quite positive as a docu- when overtop of it you have something that can over- ment. But like I say, the language sort of makes it seem ride everything. Around that language, you can say

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 729 that the charter is admirable — I mean, I'm just going In addition, I know the member is familiar with the to read it — without needing a sort of a statement that Canada–B.C. infrastructure program, the federal gov- seems somewhat overblown. ernment program with the one-third, one-third, one- Maybe to numbers now. If we could just turn to the third share that we have in…. Those, while over five resources summary — it's on page eight of the docu- years, are not always equally distributed year to year. mentation that I was given. There were some questions It depends on the number of claims that come in. The about local government operating expenses, and I will program itself will certainly be fully allocated and just give you an opportunity to have a look at that. used, as we keep hearing, but that is spread out over a Now, is any documentation available to us? Just number of years. look at your preparation book. No, just look at your Those are the two primary reasons why you may binder. How much of that is available to us, in terms of see changes. I want to reiterate that the local govern- what you prepared there? I know it sounds like a face- ment grants the local municipalities receive have not tious question, but I'm actually…. How much of that is changed. They continue to receive their annual available for us? That's my question, and then I'll sit amounts. What does change — as I say, whenever we down. have opportunities to have infrastructure grant programs and, of course, depending on how people access Hon. I. Chong: I have to say I remember my days that and how soon they take advantage of it — will in opposition, and I remember sitting over there won- depend on how that shows up in the expenditure of the dering what was going on, on this side of the room as dollars here in the budget. well. It's a fair question, but a lot of information is prepared as a result of requests that I make, so it might not N. Macdonald: How much of the budget, then, is be of interest to you. It's a learning curve that we all federal dollars? How much of the money we're talking have. When I was in opposition I used to walk in here about here would come from a federal source? with big binders myself because I had prepared all my own research information. You will be there one day, Hon. I. Chong: There are no federal dollars in our too, with all the binders, I'm sure. budget. This would be our share of the grant. Of the What is available are those documents that are in $800 million Canada–B.C. infrastructure program, our the public domain. We are able to provide them. Obvi- one-third of $267 million, I think, or thereabouts, if it's ously, for reasons of policy, while things are being spread out over the five years in different proportions worked on, those are certainly not available to the and not evenly…. That's what's included in the budget. member. Wherever we're able to share information, I A lot of times when a new program comes in, people make the offer that we can. Whenever there's more are just getting their applications. Then it ramps up in information that the member wishes, again the offer to the second, third or fourth year as people realize it's have staff go over things with you is certainly there going to be allocated out, and as the program is run- too. What we are able to provide, we certainly do. ning out, fewer dollars are allocated for the tail end of Sometimes we actually are just taking the budget book the years. and the briefings, or the blue books and estimates, and just taking a page and expanding it a little bit more. It's N. Macdonald: Perhaps you could explain, as well, really not as scary as it may look on this side of the the ministry capital expenditures. They are from room. $40,000 up to $800,000, so if you could explain that as well. That's in the third phase on page eight. N. Macdonald: In terms of local government, the [1640] estimates for 2004-2005…. It's a significantly different figure than for 2005-2006. Maybe just a quick explana- Hon. I. Chong: I should probably clarify. Maybe it's tion for the change? Then, from that, the next question I a bit confusing. The local government dollars allocated would ask is about the difference in the subsequent for the ministry capital expenditures are not to local years. So to save time, maybe you could just run governments. These are the ministry local government through why the difference in operating expenses. branch, which is requiring some upgrades. Primarily, it [1635] is to bring our systems up to date. There is a new project to streamline the collection of Hon. I. Chong: Without getting into too many spe- tax rate information from local governments, to pro- cifics, perhaps I could generally explain the changes in vide electronic support for access and reporting. There the estimates found from year to year. A large part of is development of an application to support the man- the increase from '04-05 to '05-06 pertains to traffic fine agement and reporting of grant applications, including revenue-sharing. Where it was introduced in '04-05, it the Canada infrastructure program. As can be appreci- was at the tail end. In '05-06 the full year of what those ated with the various grant programs that are out dollars mean will come into that cycle. I believe that there, especially when you're partnering with the fed- with the traffic fine revenue-sharing announced in Sep- eral government, the need to evaluate and provide tember '04, we had the balance of the year to go. Then information on a timely basis sometimes hinges on in '05-06, '06-07, etc., the full year is incorporated into whether the federal government wishes to extend the those years. program. We're finding, as well, that with more and

730 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 more opportunities like this for grants, we are needing nicipalities of Langford, Highlands, Metchosin — I to upgrade the system — I wouldn't say it has been have them all, hon. minister. neglected, but it has unfortunately not had a substan- I know it's going to be a challenge for me over the tial upgrade in a while — to be able to put that forward next four years to work with you and your staff to and streamline a number of things. manage the growth that's taken place in the region I At times a lot has to do with data collection, with represent and also the aspirations of those communi- bringing in information and allowing for timely infor- ties, so I don't want to get too much into the question of mation. I know that even in local government when I amalgamation and so on today. There'll be plenty of was there…. I can appreciate that citizens come in and time for that as we move toward November. expect information fairly quickly. They don't under- I did make a commitment during the election cam- stand why they can't receive it with the push of a but- paign to a group of citizens in Otter Point and Shirley ton. They think everybody is computerized, but even with respect to the results of a referendum held in Feb- with computerization, you sometimes need to change ruary this year. There was an extraordinarily high your system, to upgrade it and make it more efficient turnout; 50-plus percent turned out to vote overwhelm- and that. This primarily relates to that. ingly against joining with the district of Sooke. Those citizens were particularly concerned about the Kemp N. Macdonald: Just one or two more questions, Lake watershed. then another member has questions for a few minutes. I want to ask a question, and I'm hopeful that the With that, so I understand: it's $40,000 and then staff here will be able to answer this. The policy of your $800,000. Is it to buy equipment? If it is, does that mean ministry, as I understand it, is to avoid as much as pos- you're spending that sum each year? It's not really a sible dividing a watershed between districts. Is that the one-time purchase of something capital. So are you case? buying a service from a particular set of individuals, or are you buying equipment? Where is this sum being Hon. I. Chong: I welcome the member's participa- spent? tion in these estimates debates. If he is worried about not being able to put all his questions because of his Hon. I. Chong: These are, as I say, improvements other commitment and if he would like to put them in to our technical support, our database systems. At writing to my staff, we will get the answers to him. times they can be brought in and phased in over the I acknowledge the fact that he has a number of mu- three years. For accounting treatment, they are to be nicipalities and a number of areas to represent. Grow- capitalized, as opposed to being written off as an ing up in this area, I know all too well the differences operating expense, and that's why they're showing of opinions and attitudes in each of the municipalities. up there. Not everybody understands those terms — I think it's fair to say that what our ministry at- capitalizing, amortization. I just thought I would, tempts to do is facilitate wherever there are require- hopefully, not confuse you. That's the reason for ments or requests for boundary extensions, for annexa- that. tion. We as a ministry are not there to impose a system Once those have been taken care of, and if there that's not going to work for the citizens, particularly for wasn't a need to upgrade again, because there isn't a citizens who come out and in very large numbers ex- program we enter into with the federal government press their views on what should happen. that requires us to have a new system, then it's likely We also try not to break up an improvement dis- these will be sustainable in the longer term. trict, but sometimes there are challenges in place, and geographic boundaries sometimes do play into this. J. Horgan: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank What we will try to do and continue to do is work with you, minister, for a few moments of your time. I want those districts, with those areas, to find the most ap- to say at the outset that as I look across, I see two of the propriate measures where we can accommodate the most capable public servants I ever had the pleasure of least amount of disruption. working with. You're very fortunate to have them on It is not the intention of the ministry, as I say, to go either side of you today, and I wanted to acknowledge in and suggest a solution without having the consulta- that for them and also for you. tion of citizens as to what they want to do. There will, [1645] at times, be challenges, maybe not so much in this area I have a number of questions, and I'm not certain but in other parts of the province where there are re- I'll be able to get at them all in the time I have available. quests that areas want. We have geographic bounda- I have to be in another place. As you know, and I know ries we have to work around or through to see how your deputy knows, Malahat–Juan de Fuca is one of that can work. the more challenging provincial constituencies with respect to municipal issues, with the CRD and the one J. Horgan: I thank the minister for her comments. director representing Otter Point, Shirley, Port Renfrew I'll just expand a little bit on the particular situation, and up to the Malahat. Similarly, there are issues because it is a complicated one. I may have my facts around annexation in the Duncan area with respect to wrong, but as I understand the chronology in Otter the Cowichan Valley regional district. Also, the mu- Point, Sooke and East Sooke as well…. I wanted to

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 731 leave East Sooke out of this at the moment, because I know they've appealed to your staff. Can I men- there are different issues there. tion staff? I guess I can. Gary Paget met with the group. When there was an annexation with respect to the They had a very productive meeting, but they're still Silver Spray development, a determination was made not certain about where the government plans to go that Silver Spray, although not connected in any way with their community. If you had any insights on by land to the district of Sooke…. An argument was whether a governance study would be possible, if there made and accepted, I assume, by the ministry that are funds available in this year's budget, would there there was contiguity, if that's a word. possibly be funds available in February? And if that's [1650] the case, how can this group of citizens — a large and active group of citizens — access your department fur- A Voice: Contiguous. ther, beyond the initial meetings they've had with Mr. Paget, to look at the governance study? J. Horgan: "Contiguous," yes, but "contiguity," I'm [1655] not so sure. So, two parts: the watershed question — a separate They argued that there was a connection between community is going to be making decisions about the Silver Spray properties and the district of Sooke via drinking water in another community, potentially af- water. That tended to put the cat amongst the pigeons fecting drinking water in another community; and in my community and in the communities of Otter then, the governance study. Point and Shirley. After that decision was made on the East Sooke side of the equation, there was confusion as [D. Hayer in the chair.] to whether or not, if you can get into a boat and travel to Sooke, you can therefore be part of the district. With respect to Otter Point–Shirley, it's much more Hon. I. Chong: I apologize. I wanted to make sure I clear-cut. There are four properties that have applied to had as much information as possible for the member. the district of Sooke to join with that district. There was In regard to the property owners wanting to belong a successful counterpetition, and there will be a refer- to Sooke, I'm sure the member knows it is important endum in November on whether or not that will take that we respect the wishes of those who want to join a place. municipality. At the same time, if a municipality has Of course, we'll leave the people to decide on that issues, it also has to have an opportunity to decide, by question, but it's the people of Sooke that will be decid- referendum, if it wants people to join it. We want this ing that question, not the people of Otter Point and sort of union to work. That's why referendums and Shirley. What they did in February is vote 80 percent — alternative processes are available. and I look around the room — 80 percent. Imagine The concern he raises about the watershed would that. That's an extraordinarily high number, and I think certainly be one for those who don't wish to be part of that's the voice of the people in the community saying: Sooke. What can happen, in fact, is that Sooke does "We don't want to go down that road." The reason they have the power to protect the watershed through its don't is because two-thirds of the people in Otter Point zoning land use authority, and I would certainly look get their drinking water from the Kemp Lake water- to them to have them understand what is taking place. shed. The proposal that was before the district of Sooke Should they be annexing and should these four proper- and that will go to the people of Sooke for referendum ties join them, they have to take a look at the new will cut that watershed in half. The people outside of boundary that's created, then use their authority Sooke, not interested in joining Sooke, could have their through zoning land use to protect those other interests water compromised by an association with another not involved with Sooke. Again, we would be happy to regional entity. help explain that or work with them to make sure the I know it's a long story, and my colleagues are be- residents feel this is a possibility, if there's confusion on ing patient with me, as you are too, but people in the that. Certainly, we could provide that information. community are quite concerned about this. They feel, The other issue on the governance study is a bit having exercised their democratic rights to vote on the more complicated. The ministry does have dollars question in February and having it revisited, that available for any area that is wishing to annex, to in- they're not having an opportunity to speak to it. corporate, but we also have to look at these requests — That's part one. I'll put the second question just so I that there is a reasonable expectation of success, as op- won't have to stand up again, and your staff can rumi- posed to somebody who says: "Why don't we access nate on it. these dollars and see if it works?" It's the question of a governance study for the area. If there is a reasonable expectation that this is going What happened during the referendum in February to move ahead but a planning grant is then necessary, was that the residents said they didn't want to join we will absolutely want to be there to help provide Sooke, but that was the only question on the ballot. that, but before I say, "Yes, we'll help with the govern- There were no other questions about it. Would you ance study," we have to have some indication that prefer to be a separate, stand-alone municipality? Is the there will be success. Otherwise, we could have people improvement district where you want to be? Do you constantly coming and asking for a study, knowing want to be something else? there may not be a success rate there.

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We're here to help facilitate. We want to respect the and the communities that received them. I'll leave that wishes of the citizens. Hopefully, that's helpful to the question with you and how you decide to proceed with member. answering it.

J. Horgan: It does. What would constitute a prob- [H. Bloy in the chair.] ability of success? [1700] Hon. I. Chong: I acknowledge the member for Cariboo South. On the questions the member is raising, Hon. I. Chong: The issue of the feasibility of a grant I want to confirm, first of all, they're regarding the B.C. being provided will be based on the probability of success. community water improvement program versus the That will be derived from a number of things: whether Canada-B.C. infrastructure program. Can I first get there is community support…. Generally, community clarification from him on that? support is based on a referendum. Unfortunately, when the referendum was posed in February, it had one ques- C. Wyse: Both works for me, thank you. tion on it and didn't allow for a second question. The other area that is looked upon, as well, is financial Hon. I. Chong: Then I'll begin with the Canada- sustainability. While people may wish to incorporate, if B.C. infrastructure program. This program saw over there isn't the financial sustainability because of the tax 300 community projects approved, and the provincial base or what is going to have that community grow, those and federal governments' contribution was $537 mil- are also areas we have to take a look at. I was just confer- lion toward a total project value of $800 million over ring with my staff to find out, because I understand the the last four years. These are for communities through- dilemma that's being faced here: you get the grant to go out the province. I don't have a listing here with me, forward, but you don't know if you can go forward be- but if the member is keenly interested, we may be able cause you don't know if the grant is there. to provide that to him. What can happen in this particular case — and I'm not [1705] going to suggest it happens in every case, but because the To date 316 applications have been received. Re- member has raised it — is that if there was a group and a quests for two-thirds funding total $454 million, so the meeting and if a community wanted to get together, we total capital cost of the 316 proposed projects currently could certainly have staff come out and meet and talk is $681 million. It's an $800 million pot and $681 million about what may or may not take place. Maybe they can worth of projects, with two-thirds coming from provin- gauge some community support in that sense to see cial and local governments at $454 million. whether we can take it the next step further. Certainly, we Applications are still trickling in. Although the want to find ways to be helpful in that. program itself is completely subscribed, it's just that the applications are still being processed, and the bal- J. Horgan: I thank the minister very much for her ance of it will certainly be entirely placed out. comments and her help. I know that in my interactions The other program the member has interest in is the over the past four months as a newly elected MLA, her B.C. community water improvement program. During staff have been very helpful in my community on this UBCM I met with many communities who expressed one issue. an interest in knowing where these were, and I thank I know I'll bid farewell for today, but I thank you the member for also attending with his local commu- for the opportunity to talk to you about the other very nity and being at the meeting. This, again, is a $120 important issues. The residents of East Sooke are as million program, of which provincial government is concerned as the folks in Otter Point, but I raise the providing $80 million worth. Otter Point-Shirley questions today because this is a To date, $17.8 million has been allocated for 21 pro- highly motivated group of individuals. There are 3,600 jects. I have a list of those, and we could probably re- people living in this district, and they have aspirations. lease that to the member, if he's interested. I won't read I'm pleased that if they can demonstrate a probability them all, because there are quite a few. of success, they'll have cooperation from this minister I think what's important to note is that during and this government. UBCM, with the over 50 meetings I had, this was per- The questions around the northern portion of haps the top issue that everyone wanted to find out Malahat–Juan de Fuca will have to wait for another about. What I've had to say, and I'll repeat again for the day, but I know you're going to be open to discussing benefit of those who may be reviewing Hansard subse- those. Thank you very much for your time. quently, is that it was a very popular program, and many applications came in. In fact, we were certainly C. Wyse: My understanding, hon. minister, is that oversubscribed. your area is responsible for water and sanitary sewer I have made a commitment that the balance of the grants underneath the infrastructure program, and I approved projects will be announced by the end of this have a series of questions around that, if I may. year, of this calendar year as opposed to fiscal year. I would be interested to know how many commu- The program was introduced in February, and by De- nities received their water grant applications for this cember this will all be announced. That's a pretty good year, the sums of money for each one of the projects time frame, considering grant applications sometimes

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 733 take two years to process. We will have that done your answer include both the water and sewer within ten months. projects? Some have asked why they couldn't find out sooner. Because of the popularity of the program, we Hon. I. Chong: Yes, the B.C. community water im- needed to have the opportunity at UBCM for munici- provement program does include projects that looked pal councils and regional districts to share with us any at water and sewer. Some people applied for some information we may have been missing on this. We say sewers and applied for water, so when the member that the ranking and the scoring of the projects de- receives the list, he'll see which projects have been ap- pended highly on two criteria — that is, on environ- proved. He'll also see the Canada–B.C. infrastructure mental concerns and on public health concerns. program and, again, which projects were approved. In sending in the applications, some people may have listed it but not ranked it nearly as high. I wanted C. Wyse: Without having the list in front of me…. to give an opportunity, a sort of last-minute pitch to Besides the name of the community that was successful those communities I met with, to say that if you have — whether it's an area and so on — will it also include any more information, please send it to me this week the sums of money, the actual project? What informa- when we're back in session so that staff can put it all tion is actually contained on those lists? If I could have together and ensure that if we need to bring those for- the headlines, that will tell me whether I need to ask ward and have a second look at them, we can. any more questions. As I say, some people put their applications in and didn't identify that public health or environment was a Hon. I. Chong: I hope the member will excuse me if huge…. In other cases, we found out that the system I haven't got his particular community lists or if I've had, before UBCM, begun to fail and showed signs of got the wrong one, but I'll go based on this. For exam- stress. That was all good new information. ple, I know 100 Mile House received a project, and the So I was glad I had the opportunity at UBCM to project title will be listed as the Bridge Creek water allow the members to canvass where we were and also quality fisheries enhancement. The eligible cost, to ask them to provide more information. If we can $997,000, of which $664,700 was the B.C. community announce these any sooner before the end of the year, water improvement program contribution. On the re- we certainly will. Some have said it's critical that the gion that it applies to, it says the Cariboo, and the other project be approved by a certain time, due to the con- one is Williams Lake. That might be his colleague's. struction and the hardness of the ground, of course, The project for the local government is there. The title where it's colder. It's not like Victoria where construc- overall is storm water management project. tion, I'm proud to say, occurs all year-round. In those Again, the eligible cost in the B.C. community wa- circumstances we're going to try to take a look at them, ter improvement program dollars…. The region is as well, and we will advance them as quickly as possi- Cariboo, so I apologize if we haven't got Cariboo North ble. We don't want to leave any municipality out in the and South, but they do try to list it. We are trying to cold, in that sense, by not having had the opportunity take a look at every project and not look at any specific to send us additional information. region, but really, it's the merits of the projects that are critical here. C. Wyse: I'm glad the hon. minister reminded me of While I indicated at UBCM that I know all these the courtesy she extended to me at the UBCM, and I do projects are important, some are dealing with popula- wish to acknowledge that I was very appreciative on be- tion growth. They just don't rank as high as those that half of the various local governments I was with. I extend deal with environmental or public health concerns and our appreciation not only of your kindness but your pro- priorities. Those had the highest ranking. fessionalism in going about answering the questions. I appreciate very much your response, and I try to C. Wyse: If you could help me once more, I believe listen very closely, but I may not have quite heard every- I heard you tell me that not all the funds have been thing accurately. I believe I heard from you that the last awarded. Would you mind refreshing for me how set of programs…. I would be provided with the list of many more funds are left to be awarded? At the same projects. But I believe I heard the word "may", which to time if you could also provide for me the approximate me is the possibility of receiving the list with regards to number of applications that you have in consideration the 300-odd projects. I just want to have some clarity on for the unexpended funds…? Please ensure that I'm whether I will actually receive it. also accurate, because I believe you said you were go- [1710] ing to try and have your decision made by the end of this calendar year, which I would understand to be the Hon. I. Chong: Yes, I will have both lists available, end of December. the Canada–B.C. as well as the B.C. community water improvement program, for the member. Hon. I. Chong: I should clarify, in case in my previous answer to the member I might have rolled in the C. Wyse: I don't want to drag this out, and I should Canada–B.C. infrastructure with the B.C. community have possibly put the same questions around the water improvement program in my response. I will just sewer, because I just asked about the water. Now, did make that clarification now.

734 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005

[1715] most 2,000 applications that likely would have come in The B.C. community water improvement program; for that. the $120 million worth of projects, of which the province is providing $80 million…. We have been able to C. Wyse: In my confusion, I've lost track. Are there allocate about $17.8 million of that to 21 projects, which any unexpended funds in this program that have not leaves about $62.2 million left to be distributed for the been allocated yet? If the answer is yes, then I would balance. We received 316 applications for that, and like to know when they would be granted. those 316 applications, if we were to fund the entire [1720] amount, would be well in excess of $681 million. So, as you can see, the popularity of the program was 5 or 6 Hon. I. Chong: Unfortunately, the answer has to be to 1, but that's to be expected. All infrastructure pro- no. It has all been expended or allocated. The approv- grams are always popular because municipalities cer- als are there. A project may not have been started, sim- tainly see it as a good way to partner and share in the ply because of timing of construction, but the approv- cost of improving it for their citizens. als have been made. That's why the $537 million worth I hope that's helpful. Yes, December 31 is the date and the other $263 million for municipalities would that is sort of the final date. We are absolutely trying to total up the $800 million project value. I should say that move it a lot quicker, as I've indicated to the member. we are continuing to work, as was announced at But because I had given assurance at UBCM to all the UBCM, with the federal government to secure yet an- municipalities and local governments that met with other infrastructure program. me…. I said they could have this week to go back to Here in British Columbia we've been able to make their administrator, check their applications and see if sure that we get our fair share of dollars. The new-deal- there was any possibility of any new information com- for-cities dollars, of course, will allow for communities ing to us and to have it in to us this week. Then I'll give to look at projects for cleaner water, cleaner air, for my staff more time next week to take a look at any- transportation — things of that nature. As I indicated at thing we may have missed, any verbal communication UBCM, these are not matching dollars. These will be they provided to us at UBCM, so that we're in a posi- permitted to local governments as long as they apply to tion to make those announcements as quickly as possi- them. I did have booklets at UBCM that I handed out, ble and to have that out so everybody can start on their and I encouraged the municipal administrators to take projects. them with them, so I hope they do. But all that information is probably available through UBCM, as well, C. Wyse: I appreciate your clarity. You've helped and on their website. If not, we can certainly see if we me remove some of my confusion. can provide you with a copy so that areas that you rep- If I am repeating the question again, I'm going to resent are clear about how to make application to those have to do that. Could I then return to the federal- dollars as well. provincial infrastructure program? In essence, I would ask the same question. The questions are: how much B. Simpson: It's okay to be confused about Cariboo had been awarded from that project? How many appli- North and Cariboo South. cants? How many funds have not been awarded, if any? How many applicants are in that particular Hon. I. Chong: Okay. source? In essence, the same series of questions for the other fund. I would also ask that when you give your B. Simpson: The hon. member and I are just as con- answer, you clarify whether that's applying to the pro- fused sometimes as well. So are our constituents. vincial portion or the combined provincial-federal. I'd As you can well imagine, I have a question to kick just like to know, in your answer, what the actual us off. I'm wondering how many postcards you've got- funds are and how much they represent. ten to date.

Hon. I. Chong: For the Canada–British Columbia Hon. I. Chong: I did see a number of postcards that Infrastructure Works program, the $800 million was have come into my office here at the Legislature. I don't over a term of about four years for infrastructure pro- know the numbers. I have asked staff, though, to en- grams or projects, and 300 projects were approved. The sure that everybody, as long as their writing is legible, federal and the provincial share was $537 million, and receives an acknowledgment that I've received it. I of course the municipalities — the other one-third — is want them to know that I have received them. But I $263 million. can't give a number. I haven't counted, but I passed by As I say, I will provide the member with a list, and her desk the other day, and I saw perhaps about a half he will again see the variety and the diversity of all the a dozen anyway. Maybe she was still logging them all programs that are there. I think, then, that should pro- in. But the postcards are coming in. vide that. I don't have the total, my staff advise me, of all the applications that were received; 300 were ap- B. Simpson: That was a segue into the question of proved. If we could extrapolate that to the same popu- slides, of course. larity as the B.C. community water improvement pro- The Quesnel slide. We had the discussion at UBCM. gram, 5 to 1, then it's pretty clear that there were al- I know the city council members were very apprecia-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 735 tive of that discussion and the Premier's attention to it, cess to expertise. To be quite frank, we do not have the and I know it's too soon to sort of pursue what has capacity currently, within the ministries that are in- been done as a consequence. I want to talk about slides volved, to have that expertise. It certainly would be an in general, because it is a generalized issue. I'm won- area that we'd need to seek out and find if there are dering if the minister has given any thought to maybe people out there who have that expertise. changing the way that communities are supported to As you can appreciate, with the study that was deal with these issues. done for Quesnel and the peer review that's taking place, there are differences of opinion. It is about the Hon. I. Chong: I thank the member, as well, for his engineering and the geotechnical factors. I'm not an participation in that meeting where the Premier met with engineer; I'm just an accountant. I don't know about all the concerned members from his community on that. those kinds of details. What I can say, though, is: work We certainly know the challenges that are being faced is underway. I think, as a result of the work, when it is there, and it's one of the reasons we want to work cross- completed, we will see where we could build capacity. government, where we can, to find a solution. We will see where we may need to fill those spots in We've already started that discussion with the pro- terms of expertise. So I say it is certainly a fair com- vincial emergency program and the Ministry of Trans- ment that he raises. portation so that we have in mind some consultation, As we evolve in this process and the work contin- some dialogue, as to what can take place. It's not, I ues, we will very likely find out what we can do to guess, an occurrence that happens throughout the have that. The last thing that you'd want, though, is to province. I know in certain areas it may. We do need to have to build the capacity and have a branch available work cross-government to have in place a plan that and then rarely use the people, because they, too, will may be able to deal with these more efficiently or more get to feel underemployed and underutilized. effectively, as quickly as possible, so that the citizens The second question he raises, about a new pro- are not put through the kinds of anxiety that, clearly, gram — again, that's an interesting idea. I'm not averse they are. to the idea of seeing how that might work out. Again, it [1725] would require some work to find out what we would At this point we are working with the other agency be talking about. As the member has pointed out, a and the other ministry to find out what expertise they number of areas and looming issues, he thinks, are out have in their ministries and how we can develop some there. We would certainly have to find out if that, in sort of strategy to deal with land instability. fact, can be confirmed and whether we need to have something in place. I think we would all agree in the B. Simpson: I guess my struggle is…. Prince Legislature that to be proactive is much better than to George, I know, is dealing with the situation. Williams be reactive, but it does take some work to make sure Lake is dealing with the situation. Whistler's got some- that we can identify those areas and see what we can thing that's looming. It seems to me that land stability do to develop them. So I appreciate his bringing those issues seem to be an issue. The difficulty these commu- two very valid points to the debate. nities have is that there isn't the direct support. In the case we have in Quesnel, for example, we have B. Simpson: Just so that I don't get labelled again as to now wait for a peer review because it wasn't involved another Chicken Little, I wasn't suggesting there was a with the ministry people, which then delays it further out. looming crisis. It strikes me as if there is a land stability issue that is occurring in parts of the province. Particularly if you look Hon. I. Chong: You're not little. down in the lower mainland, as we start going up the hillsides, this is an issue that could be growing on the ho- A Voice: And no chicken. rizon. I'm curious if the ministry is actually going to start looking at bringing the expertise to bear so that we don't B. Simpson: I was just suggesting that as you look have duplicate processes, peer reviews or things that get at urban sprawl, it seems to be going up. Therefore, an in the way of the communities getting action on this and environmental scan of where growth is occurring and that slow down the delay process. what the implications are may then lead to, as you've The second question is: will we be able to have a already indicated, the possibility of a gap needing to be program to deal with these things, rather than trying to filled. So I appreciate those responses. fit it into some other program that exists? [1730] So, two questions there. One is: will cities have the I'd like to shift tack a little bit here to seniors. It's an ability to get access to expertise so we don't have to go area that is of concern in the community I live in, through peer review? The second is: will there be some Quesnel. The issue is for seniors advocacy. Our seniors kind of program that we can get direct aid to these advocacy group in Quesnel really operates on a shoe- things, rather than having to fit it into pre-existing pro- string. I think they provide a terrific service, because grams that don't really fit? they help seniors to find all of the different programs that are available to them. I know the group that works Hon. I. Chong: To the member, I think the com- in Quesnel barely makes it from month to month, yet ments he makes are fair. It would be great to have ac- they deliver a very viable and important service. So I'm

736 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 curious: under the new directions that the ministry is quickly go through a quick guide to find out informa- going and the new mandate in the throne speech and tion they may otherwise not have known about. We budget speech around seniors work, is there going to produce that guide. be more support to seniors advocacy groups in our We continue to take a look at ways of providing communities? information to seniors. We encourage them, as well, to become more computer-literate, because that is the new Hon. I. Chong: I think it's no surprise to everyone, wave. Some don't want to, and I understand that, but the fact that British Columbia has a very fast-growing we have encouraged it. I've seen more and more sen- aging population. With 13 percent of the population iors going to their public libraries and accessing com- now classified as seniors, 65 and over, in about 24 or 25 puters and therefore seeing what government services years we're going to see it rise to 23 percent — one in and programs are available. four. As I look around the room, I don't know which [1735] one of us four will be there, but certainly we're seeing At the end of the day, we are certainly mindful that to be a concern for all of us. How we plan for that that…. We all have seniors on our minds. Each and is critically important. every one of us has a senior in our family. I have many As a result, the member may be aware of the Pre- in mine. We want to be able to address the issues that mier's Council on Aging and Seniors Issues that was are important to them, as far-reaching as they may be. established or announced in April and has just recently We will look to the recommendations that come to us been established in terms of who will be serving on as well. that council. That was announced this Monday. Dr. Just a final note on the seniors guide before I sit Patricia Baird, who is the chair of this particular coun- down. These booklets have been very popular. We do cil, will be having a forum or a dialogue in Vancouver, make them available to all MLAs. In fact, if you do not where she will be bringing in experts who want to talk have these in your office, we're prepared to send you about aging and seniors issues. Then she will be taking out a number of them. We start off with 25, and very the council around the province — I'm not sure which shortly you find you need another 25, so we could locations; that is up to her and her council to decide — send…. We don't want to send them out and have to be able to reach the public in their communities, in them sitting there not used, because I've found that the rural and remote and the urban centres, finding out other regions in the province — when we were in the what are important issues for seniors. throes of having a new edition made, an updated ver- We tend to have a preconceived notion that seniors sion — had them sitting in some offices and not being are only concerned about two main things, and those utilized, and other people were seriously searching for are health and housing. While those are important, them. we're hearing that seniors are concerned about other I've said this as I've travelled around the province: things, such as mandatory retirement, such as trans- "Go to your MLA office, wherever that is. He or she portation — when you consider that seniors need mo- should have copies of this." Seniors are very, very bility to ensure that they're not isolated. Many seniors grateful to have that book. So if any members don't that I've met, after having lost their partner and who have them, please let us know. We'll make sure you get are still independent and want to remain in their home, a good supply for your offices. suffered or quickly went downhill because of the social isolation they experienced. So we need to make sure B. Simpson: Thanks for those answers. I'd like to that we can address those issues. explore it a little bit more, but I'm getting kicked in the Are those all the issues that are going to be ad- shins here, and I do have one more area to cover. dressed? I doubt it. Are there going to be new areas It won't come as a surprise, this next area, but in that we hadn't even thought of? I hope so. The council, your service plan you have, under "Challenges and therefore, will be able to provide us with some ideas of Opportunities Facing British Columbians," of course, what they've heard and then provide us with recom- the mountain pine beetle issue. The statement in the mendations so that this government can start to plan plan is: "The ministry will work with resource minis- for an aging population. tries and other social ministries to mitigate the socio- What we do have currently available to support our economic impacts of these challenges on communities." seniors are a number of things. We do have a toll-free I'm curious what the nature of that work might be — Health and Seniors Information Line that was launched the more specific, the better, for me. this February. That actually has a real person at the end of that line. Seniors who I know have said they hate Hon. I. Chong: I thank the member for raising this navigating through the "press one, press two and then very important issue. Sometimes here on the Island hit this number sign"; they find it very disturbing. and in the lower mainland we forget what is happen- When it was launched, I was personally there with a ing around the province, and the mountain pine beetle senior. We tried it, and we got a real, live voice at the certainly is devastating a lot of communities. Our gov- other end, and that was very helpful. ernment has developed an action plan to help mitigate We also provide a seniors guide to seniors, because the impacts of this epidemic. many who are wanting to be independent and may not What this ministry is involved in is working cross- use the resources of a seniors group want to be able to government to be of assistance to our local communi-

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 2005 BRITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 737 ties and local governments, where I have responsibil- Hon. I. Chong: To the member for Alberni- ity. It's not strictly a forestry industry…. I mean, the Qualicum: I'm glad that the seniors handbooks have forest industry, of course, is impacted. But the towns, been of use to him. the people who live in the towns and the local gov- With regards to the emergency preparedness dol- ernments which have to make decisions need to have a lars, a million dollars was provided in 2004 to UBCM representative or a person that they want at the table. and another million and a half just this past year. So That, therefore, is me, working through the Ministry of there was $2.5 million provided to UBCM which the Community Services with other ministries and other communities can access to provide…. agencies across government as well as a number of I apologize. I can't confirm whether it's $20,000 or communities. $10,000, because it is a program that…. While UBCM is It means our ministry is part of a cross-government administering it, the dollars have been made available deputy ministers' committee to talk about whatever through the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor measures are brought in. We can all bring to the table General. If the member wants more information on how things might affect that community. While it may that, he may be able to speak with the Solicitor General affect economic issues in one, we may say: "Well, then when he has his estimates or, more quickly, can just we've got social things to think about." contact UBCM, which may be able to provide that in- We may have local government concerns that need formation to him. to be addressed. This will allow us to collaborate and more effectively ensure that the dollars being allocated S. Fraser: I don't know whether you can answer or resources being put forward to help a community this, then. The amount that was made available — was are more effective. there a basis for that based on what was needed by the It is about working cross-government. It is about communities? Or is that a question I should be direct- finding ways to support economic diversification. It is ing elsewhere? Was it a sum that was available in the about ensuring that our local governments know that budget, or was it reflective of some plan for protection they're part of the stakeholders when it comes to this and preparedness? impact on their community. Hon. I. Chong: Yes, the question would be better S. Fraser: To the minister, thank you. The hand- directed to the Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor book on seniors has been of use to my constituency. We General. have one of the highest populations of seniors per cap- I think it would be fair to say that we wanted, as a ita in Canada in my riding, so it has been of use. result of the tsunami that occurred in Southeast Asia, to [1740] be able to look at our own needs in our province. When Just out of consideration for your staff: I'm going the dollars were initially provided, it may well have to be changing gears here. The local government been: "Let's at least start addressing the problem." Then tsunami preparedness program — just a couple of another additional $1½ million was provided. It would questions on that, if I may. Alberni-Qualicum is my have to be needs-based. constituency. It incorporates the west coast of Van- UBCM is administering a number of programs. I couver Island and central Vancouver Island. There think they might also be in a position to understand was a resolution put forward by the Alberni- which communities are coming forward for some assis- Clayoquot regional district that was endorsed at the tance in planning. For more detailed information, the UBCM. It was regarding getting aid in preparedness Solicitor General would probably be best to offer up for a potential tsunami disaster. As you know, Al- that information. berni had an experience in the '60s with a tsunami. And there have been a number of warnings on the N. Macdonald: I move that the committee rise, re- west coast too — the Tofino, Ucluelet, Bamfield area port progress and ask leave to sit again. — whenever there's an earthquake. You probably hear the tremor in my voice. Excuse me. Motion approved. The program is available for…. Is it $20,000 for high risk and $10,000 for medium risk? Is that correct, minister? The committee rose at 5:44 p.m.

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