Vol. 185 Tuesday, No. 14 12 December 2006

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Tuesday, 12 December 2006.

Business of Seanad ………………………………1249 Order of Business …………………………………1249 Criminal Justice Act 1984 (Treatment of Persons in Custody in Garda Sı´ocha´na Stations) (Amendment) Regulations 2006: Referral to Joint Committee ……………………1267 Regional Fisheries Boards (Postponement of Elections) Order 2006 ………………1267 Fisheries (Miscellaneous Commercial Licences) (Alteration of Duties) Order 2006: Referral to Joint Committee …………………………………1267 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: Order for Second Stage ……………………………1268 Second Stage …………………………………1268 European Communities Bill 2006: Committee Stage ……………………1298 Adjournment Matters: Garda Vetting Unit ………………………………1319 Water and Sewerage Facilities …………………………1323 1249 1250

SEANAD E´ IREANN out debate to the Joint Committee on Communi- cations, Marine and Natural Resources for con- ———— sideration the subject matter of Nos. 19 and 20 on the Order Paper, No. 19 concerning the post- De´ Ma´irt, 12 Nollaig 2006. ponement of elections for members of the Tuesday, 12 December 2006. regional fisheries boards from 2006 to 2007, and No. 20 concerning the fees payable from 1 ———— January 2007 for commercial salmon fishing licences, including a salmon conservation levy Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar equivalent to 50% of the licence fee, the proceeds 2.30 p.m. of which will be invested in wild salmon manage- ment initiatives designed to rehabilitate wild ———— salmon stocks and habitats, and a prescription of the licence fees to be payable in respect of com- Paidir. mercial eel and oyster fishing licences and Prayer salmon, eel and mollusc dealers’ licences issued or renewed for a period commencing on or after ———— 1 January 2007; No. 3, the Genealogy and Her- aldry Bill 2006 — Order for Second Stage and Business of Seanad. Second Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of An Cathaoirleach: I have notice from Senator the Order of Business and to conclude no later Bannon that, on the motion for the Adjournment than 5.30 p.m., with the proposer of the Bill and of the House today, he proposes to raise the fol- spokespersons having 15 minutes each, other lowing matter: Senators having ten minutes, and the proposer of the Bill to be called on to reply no later than ten The need for the Minister for Education and minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage; Science to provide an update on the application and No. 4, European Communities Bill 2006 — by Scoil Etchen, Kinnegad, County West- Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at meath, for a proposed building project which is 5.30 p.m. and to conclude no later than 7 p.m. No. urgently required to facilitate the demand for 4 — European Communities Bill 2006, Commit- places at the school, caused by the increased tee and Remaining Stages, will be taken at 5.30 population levels in Kinnegad. p.m. and will conclude no later than 7 p.m. I have also received notice from Senator Kitt of the following matter: Mr. B. Hayes: Some months ago the Ta´naiste The need for the Minister for the Envir- and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law onment, Heritage and Local Government to Reform unfortunately stated that, regarding address the question of approval for Kinvara organised crime, we were witnessing the last sting sewerage scheme, County Galway. of a dying wasp. In Finglas this morning the wasp was at it again. The threat posed to this society by I have also received notice from Senator organised crime, specifically drug related crime, is O’Meara of the following matter: as real and serious as the threat posed by the IRA The need for the Minister for Justice, and other subversive organisations in the recent Equality and Law Reform to ensure that past. additional staff are allocated to the Garda vet- ting unit in Thurles, County Tipperary, in light Mr. Ryan: It is far worse. of the fact that the staff there cannot cope with the additional requirement to vet all staff in Mr. B. Hayes: The situation on our streets is pre-schools and creches, resulting in the failure very dangerous and is deteriorating. Murder lev- to implement new child care regulations on 1 els have increased by 300% in the past three January 2007. years and the incidence of firearm use has increased in the past three years by 45%. At the I regard the matters raised by the Senators as weekend the Minister stated that judges “have to suitable for discussion on the Adjournment and get real” on sentencing. I wish to hear him outline they will be taken at the conclusion of business. what else can be done by way of legislation, additional powers or resources for the Garda Order of Business. Sı´ocha´na to ensure that this wasp is decom- Ms O’Rourke: The Order of Business is No. missioned. 1, a motion to refer without debate to the Joint This is a direct challenge to modern Ireland. Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and There are two Irelands, one that is law-abiding Women’s Rights for consideration the subject and another that believes itself to be outside the matter of No. 18 on the Order Paper, namely, the rule of law and carries out summary executions extension of the period of detention of an as seen in Finglas this morning. We must examine arrested person for questioning in a Garda station this issue seriously. Judges must play a role in from 12 to 24 hours; No. 2, a motion to refer with- implementing laws on minimum mandatory sen- 1251 Order of 12 December 2006. Business 1252

[Mr. B. Hayes.] a client to put a claim through, we are prevented tences passed by this House. What else, according by a court ruling from telling the client that he to the Minister, must be put in place so that or she does not need a solicitor. This is a reason organised crime can be tackled? difficulties arise and why we are appealing the I saw the “Prime Time Investigates” prog- matter to the Supreme Court. The issue may ramme on the corrupt practices of estate agents, require a change in legislation at some time in auctioneers and others in the Irish housing the future. market. In 1998, I proposed the Home Purchasers These types of protective practices cause diffi- (Anti-Gazumping) Bill, which was voted down by culties for the legal profession but I do not agree Fianna Fa´il in the Da´il. I was told there was no with the idea of qualified conveyancers to do land need for mandatory codes or regulation because conveyancing. I would have more trust in a legal the industry could regulate itself and that volun- person than anyone else with such a matter, but tary codes were the way to go. the idea of a legal services commission to oversee the operation of both sides of the legal profession Mr. Norris: Like the press. would be important. I would like a focused debate on the Compe- Mr. B. Hayes: The programme exposed what tition Authority, as some of its actions should be everyone with knowledge of the market knew questioned. It is not correct the whole time. and such corrupt practices must be tackled. The only way to do so is with a new regulatory envir- Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. onment where people are held to account. Mr. O’Toole: There are important issues that Mr. O’Toole: The sad part of the programme we must consider. is that there was little new in it. I offer my con- gratulations to Senator de Rossa, the newly Mr. Ryan: In the number of years I have spent appointed auctioneer. in this House I have frequently ended up in the company of people regarded by some members Ms O’Rourke: Sea´n de Rossa. of the Garda as subversives. In such cases I noticed that whether three people were attending Mr. Ryan: A first cousin of Proinsias de Rossa. a meeting or 20, there was never a shortage of gardaı´ to keep an eye on these suspected subvers- Mr. O’Toole: Senator Ross and I tabled a ives. They would incessantly follow these people motion in May 2003. Every item, bar one, men- around, visit their homes and pick them up. tioned in last night’s programme was included in I would regard the threat of people such as the debate. Various people spoke in the debate, those who carried out this morning’s killings to including Senator Scanlon who spoke as an auc- the way we live in this country as worse than the tioneer. Not enough has happened. The Minister Provisional IRA, as their actions are based was as good as his word in establishing a com- mission, which has since reported, but nothing entirely on self-centred and brutal greed, without has happened. The only revelation last night was any spark of ideal. That is not to explain or dilute the clear connection between mortgage compan- anything done by subversives in this country. ies and estate agents. We believed auctioneers The threat is profound and an innocent young favoured buyers whose mortgage was arranged man who happened to be working in the house is by the auctioneers. At that stage I thought the dead. We should not hear about more legislation purpose of this was to receive a commission but and my views on prisons are well known. If we I did not realise how underhanded it was. It was were to double the number of prison places, the linked to the amount the young person could prisons would inevitably be full or overcrowded afford to pay. in another two months. We need resources for It is disgraceful that the public is not being pro- those sections of the Garda Sı´ochana that are tected. It is also disgraceful that a minority of most expert in this area, in order for them to have estate agents and auctioneers are drawing many 24-hour vigilance over these people in the way responsible auctioneers into disrepute. Their they used to with what were probably correctly names and reputations are sullied by these revel- termed subversives 20 years ago. There should be ations. We know the issues and it would now be a continuous assembly of information. easy to introduce legislation. We have a responsi- How could this murdered individual, a top bility to do so and in this regard and we could Garda suspect, have been in this location without demonstrate our commitment to members of the anybody knowing? For 20 years Gerry Adams public who are affected by this. could not be anywhere in this State without the The Competition Authority’s report on the Garda knowing exactly where he was, which was legal profession has come to the fore in recent right. How can an equivalent threat to our society days. I will give an example, speaking with vested apparently not be under the same level of surveil- interest as vice chairman of the Personal Injuries lance? That is a matter for the Ta´naiste and Mini- Assessment Board. When a solicitor comes to the ster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in allo- Personal Injuries Assessment Board on behalf of cating resources and the priorities for the Garda. 1253 Order of 12 December 2006. Business 1254

I call for an immediate debate on the proposals Mr. Leyden: This is what they recommend and by Minister for Health and Children regarding it was restricted. residential care for older people. There are a ser- The great Law Society of Ireland told me it ies of issues contained in these which are pro- does not support the Registration of Wills Bill foundly worrying for older people and the type of 2005. It tries to stop investigation and the intro- society we have. Age Action Ireland has already duction of regulation to control its business. It got indicated that the only group which will have away with murder on the registration of wills. these burdens imposed on them is the elderly. I find the matter distasteful. An Cathaoirleach: It will be debated tomor- We are approaching Christmas week and row evening. people are getting involved in singing hymns about peace and harmony, most with images of Mr. Leyden: I intend to hold a major debate. Bethlehem and Palestine. What the Western An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should hold world and the world in general is doing to the his fire. people of Palestine is only one step away from genocide. These people will begin to die soon, Mr. Coghlan: This is a promo. either because of internal strife, hunger, disease or the absence of electricity. This is done because Mr. Leyden: This is a separate issue, the recom- in the most freely contested democratic election mendations of the Competition Authority. After the Middle East ever saw, the wrong party won. Christmas, we should have a general debate on That party is asked to do things Sinn Fe´in or the the legal profession in light of those recom- IRA were not asked to do before we negotiated mendations. with them. We did not ask the IRA to recognise The “Prime Time Investigates” programme last Northern Ireland, renounce violence forever or night was quite chilling. I congratulate Mr. de recognise a succession of previous agreements Rossa on his election as an auctioneer and valuer. before we negotiated with it. The only liberation struggle ever asked to An Cathaoirleach: It is Senator de Rossa in abandon its principles before negotiation is that this House. which now represents the people of Palestine. The world’s reaction was to impose the most Mr. Leyden: Senator de Rossa, auctioneer, appalling suffering, not on the government but on valuer and estate agent. I wish him well in his the ordinary people of the Palestinian territories, new practice and on his return to the House. Last the place where all of our minds will look during night’s programme “Prime Time Investigates” the next few weeks because it is the place where gave great service to the country in exposing diffi- the events of Christmas took place. I would like culties. However, it does not apply to all auction- our consciences to be a little aware of what is eers and valuers, only to a small group. Every being done in our name to the people of organisation has people who do not live by the Palestine. rules. Nobody in this House is like that. The auc- tioneers in this house are fine and upstanding. Mr. Leyden: I share the House’s grief and sor- row at the shooting dead of the sub-postmaster in Mr. Finucane: What a contrasting world we live Kilkenny. It is a disaster for his family. He was a in. This morning I looked at the newspaper and brave and courageous postmaster and we should saw a lovely smiling photograph of the Ta´naiste send our sympathies to the Postmasters Union on and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law the tragic murder of a brave person. Reform, Deputy McDowell, and the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, cutting a tape at the official opening of An Cathaoirleach: Expressions of sympathy the Data Protection Commissioner’s office in are personal. Portarlington. Only one staff member out of 24 moved from Dublin to that office. Mr. Leyden: I personally sympathise. However, I also read about the murders which Will the Leader of the House have an early happened during the week. It is deeply saddening debate on the Competition Authority’s view on to think the life of a young apprentice plumber the legal profession. I issued a detailed statement was taken because he was a witness to the on this. I do not agree with the removal of restric- execution of another man. I worry about the state tions on barristers and solicitors advertising. We of anarchy prevailing in the country. Rather than stopped this type of advertising on a previous cheap mugshots of the Minister in the newspaper occasion. We all remember the ambulance at a non-event, I would prefer to see him being chasers who sought clients and took large adver- pro-active in crushing what is happening here. tisements in the Golden Pages. The Competition Authority wants to reverse what we already did. Mr. B. Hayes: Hear, hear. I do not agree with all of the recommendations. Mr. Finucane: Given the closure of Castlema- Ms O’Rourke: They removed them. hon Foods and more than 300 workers now 1255 Order of 12 December 2006. Business 1256

[Mr. Finucane.] The most dangerous aspect of auctioneering unemployed, of which the Cathaoirleach will be practices is that these people handle vast sums of aware, I would like the Leader to raise this issue money without being supervised by anybody. with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and They take booking deposits that have no value or Employment, Deputy Martin. What are known as legal standing. As Senator O’Toole noted, this customised training programmes are available was brought to the attention of the House by us and people may be interested in specific training three years. It will be four years shortly. While a programmes. However, there is a restriction on commission sat and made some recom- the amount the State will pay, which is \650. With mendations, nothing has been done about them regard to workers like these, where promises are and I doubt anything will be done about them made that FA´ S will give maximum assistance, we before the general election, despite the latest edi- should, where possible, give the maximum assist- tion of “Prime Time Investigates”. ance, whether it is a heavy goods vehicle driving I issue two words of warning. One of the prob- course, a SafePass course or a specialist machin- lems which was not identified and which is a ery course, if we are serious about getting these delicate one in respect of this House is that auc- people back into the workplace. The Leader tioneers have traditionally had should raise this issue with the Minister and offer 3 o’clock immense political clout. This does some hope to these workers who are reaching out not just apply to this House, which to find a new opportunity. contains a large number of auctioneers, practising or not, but also to the other House and, Mr. B. Hayes: Hear, hear. especially, to county councils. Auctioneers sitting on county councils are deeply conflicted because Ms Ormonde: I also call for a debate on the they are involved in rezoning decisions which conduct of the auctioneering business and, in that obviously involve their clients. This matter should context, I congratulate Senator Ross on his have been tackled many years ago through the appointment. We must call into question how imposition of more stringent declarations of people are assessed in graduating and acquiring interest and the introduction of legislation. certification to carry out auctioneering. I was dis- We should be careful in stating that this matter gusted by the revelations in the programme last merely relates to a few cowboys. There is no evi- night. While I know Senator Ross is very capable dence regarding the latter assertion because very of handling his brief, it definitely highlights the little research has been carried out in respect of fact that the process is very easy. After seeing the this completely unregulated profession. I would programme last night, I also feel that it is time not rely too much on the two quite ineffective for the “do it yourself” people to set themselves umbrella bodies — they refer to themselves as up and see how best we can overcome these prob- “institutes” — which are in existence and which lems. A debate on this issue is certainly well supposedly regulate their members. One of the overdue. whistleblowers in last night’s “Prime Time” prog- I also congratulate the Minister for Health and ramme was a member of one of the institutes Children on her imaginative scheme for dealing when he was practising. with long-term care in the future. By putting a The prime offence outlined on last night’s charge on the value of a residence after death, programme related to mortgages being dealt with we will relieve anxiety in many families who find by the members of one group, namely, mortgage themselves in a very difficult monetary situation brokers, who where exchanging information with when they try to pay the costs of putting an eld- auctioneers. The problem in this regard is that a erly relative in a nursing home. This is a worth- large number of supposedly reputable auction- while scheme, although some people may not like eers operate, as subsidiaries, mortgage broker the idea of it. We should have a discussion on it businesses, which, in fact, they own. If that is not some time in the new year and tease out where a conflict of interest, I do not know what is and the weaknesses may be. The concept behind the such practices should be outlawed. scheme is worthwhile. It is a great and very imaginative idea and I hope it will work. Mr. Mooney: I wish to extend my deepest sym- pathy to the family of the 20 year old apprentice Mr. Ross: I endorse everything said by who was shot this morning. I also extend my sym- Senators O’Toole, Brian Hayes and Ormonde pathies to the family of the victim of the other about last night’s edition of “Prime Time Investi- murder in Kilkenny. I know nothing about the gates”. The programme was pretty raw in that it apprentice who was shot this morning, other than obviously revealed an unregulated industry run- that he comes from the inner city and possibly ning riot among first-time buyers or any buyers from a disadvantaged economic environment. or any of the most vulnerable people when they This young man had obviously been encouraged wish to make the largest investment of their lives. or had decided to make something of his life but I was not surprised by the programme because, as he was callously murdered because he happened Senator O’Toole said, we have already identified to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. As a most, if not all, these problems and a few more. child, I was a great fan of 1930s gangster films. 1257 Order of 12 December 2006. Business 1258

An Cathaoirleach: Many Members are offer- and he has, to tell us what he proposes to do ing. The Senator should be brief. about the matter. It is unacceptable that so many guns are available. When innocent people are Mr. Finucane: We want to hear what the killed it is time for the Minister to do something Senator has to say. more serious. We want to hear what can be done, whether longer sentences for those who are An Cathaoirleach: Unfortunately, we do not caught, greater resources for the Garda Sı´ocha´na have time to do so. or stiffer legislation to ensure people are safe on the street, in their workplaces and going about Mr. Mooney: I appreciate that. their business. An Cathaoirleach: I would love to hear what Mr. Hanafin: I share the call for a debate on Senator Mooney has to say but we do not have the cost of nursing homes and the future plans in time to do so. this area. This Government has a fine tradition of providing for the future, as the National Treasury Mr. Mooney: I was merely attempting to ask Management Agency encourages people to take the Leader if she agrees that there is a need to out pensions. Two major costs most people follow the example of what happened in America encounter during their lives are school fees and in the 1930s, when a group know as “the untouch- long-term nursing home care. It is possible, ables” was established? I have always accepted through long-term and ultra long-term bonds to the primacy of the law. I support the views provide for these costs. expressed by other Members and perhaps there is a need to for the Ta´naiste and Minister for The Government might step in and assist Justice, Equality and Law Reform to examine the through tax relief or double tax relief at top mar- nature of due process. If the Garda Sı´ocha´na is ginal rates because if people make provision early aware of the identity of those who carry out enough that small sum can become significant. If crimes of this nature and if its members cannot there were tax relief for the long-term bonds, as touch them, there is then a need for change. there is for pensions, using the 72 rule, which is The Special Criminal Court was established to the mathematical formula for the number of deal with the Provisional IRA and it sat in the years it would take to double one’s money at a absence of juries. As Members are aware, wide- return of 13%, a sum would increase tenfold over spread intimidation of witnesses has taken place. 50 years if one put it away at an early age. That Will the Leader convey to the Minister the horror would make a difference for the future. of Members regarding what has happened and I wish to call for a debate on the situation in ask him to reflect on the way forward? Iran. For the first time we are hearing again the I applaud the brave and courageous students in calls that were heard in the 1930s in Europe Tehran who have taken on the maniac President about the Jewish people. I address my remarks to Ahmadinejad. The latter has been hosting a con- the President of Iran who said the State of Israel ference on whether the Holocaust occurred. I did should be wiped off the map. It is unacceptable not believe that there were such brave dissenters for any sovereign state to hold that view and all within the troubled country of Iran. I wish to the more so if that state becomes a nuclear record the dismay of a great many people, partic- power. ularly the victims of the Holocaust, that such an outrageous conference is taking place in what is An Cathaoirleach: I seek co-operation from the purported to be a civilised country. Senators in being brief to ensure every Senator is accommodated on the Order of Business. An Cathaoirleach: As already stated, many Members are offering. I ask Senators to be brief Ms Tuffy: I have read reports in the news- in order that we might accommodate everyone. papers, including The Irish Times, to the effect that the Government might delay a referendum Ms Terry: I wish to add my voice to that of to deal with the fall-out from the statutory rape other Senators who expressed their horror at this controversy and the age of consent. It is no secret morning’s killing and also at the murder of an that I oppose the lowering of the age of consent. innocent man in Kilkenny who was merely going I have said this any time the issue has been about his business. The way these people were debated here. I agree with the Rape Crisis Centre killed has been a shock to everyone. On many that we may need to empower young people to occasions, we have expressed our horror in feel firm and confident in their ability to resist respect of events of this nature. However, there pressure from older people and their peer group really has not been an improvement in the to have sex before they are ready. situation. The situation on the streets is growing Not lowering the age of consent will not in any worse as innocent bystanders are getting caught way expose children to the dangers of sexual in the crossfire between gangsters. It is out of predators. That issue should be put on hold and hand. debated further because there are differences in We have called on the Minister for Justice, public opinion and within political parties. The Equality and Law Reform to come to the House, Government should prioritise implementing the 1259 Order of 12 December 2006. Business 1260

[Ms Tuffy.] An Cathaoirleach: Senator Coghlan is not numerous recommendations of the report of the holding up me, he is holding up the House. sub-committee on child protection on which there is consensus. There are 62 recommendations, all Mr. Coghlan: I will not do that either. I ask that of which are important and should be the Leader would arrange to have a debate on implemented without delay. There should be a this matter. We need legislation. referendum before the election on the need to The Competition Authority’s report is largely include the express rights of children in the Con- redundant. I very much agree with what was said stitution. I would like to have a debate on the by Senator O’Toole. Many of the recom- child protection report as soon as possible. mendations have been already implemented as I support the calls for a debate on the proposals the process took five years. I am not critical of it. to seek money from the estates of older people I also agree with what Senator O’Toole said for the cost of nursing home care. The point has about legal conveyancers. been made that older people pay their taxes, but not only that, many of the older people who Mr. J. Walsh: I welcome the report of the Com- would be affected by this measure paid the high- petition Authority in respect of the legal pro- est taxes ever paid in this country of up to 60% fession. It was long overdue. The Ta´naiste and and 70%. Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is taking some initiatives in this area. I call for a Mr. Glynn: On foot of the “Prime Time Investi- debate on that report early in the new year gates” programme, I support what was said about because the Law Society and the Bar Council are some auctioneers. I commend Senator Ross for already circling their wagons with a view to rub- his stance and the manner in which he progressed bishing the report and avoiding its implemen- the matter. I seek a debate on planning enforce- tation. That would be a travesty. This is one sec- ment. I was a member of a local authority for tor that needs to be independently regulated and 25 years. In many cases, ratepayers and taxpayers we should move in that direction. have picked up the bill for the completion of I am disappointed the report on the bombing estates. Clearly, that is wrong. of Kay’s Tavern by the sub-committee on the I welcome the call for a debate on the recent Barron report of the Oireachtas Joint Committee announcement pertaining to nursing homes. It is on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s important old people who are currently in nursing Rights is not on the Order Paper. The suggestion homes, or are due to go into nursing homes, was made during a debate last week that it might would be able to put aside the concerns that have be postponed. I remind the House that the com- been expressed in recent weeks. Excellent pro- mittee has called for a debate in this House and posals are contained in the Minister’s policy the Lower House to address the issues involved. document but it merits discussion. I call for an The victims have been crying out for truth on early debate on this matter. these matters for 30 years. To assist them in their efforts to seek closure, I urge that the report, Mr. Coghlan: We had a useful debate on the which recognises that this State has also failed the motion referred to in the names of Senators Ross victims, is debated and that we do not compound and O’Toole but perhaps we need to have their hurt by these Houses also failing the victims. another one. As someone who has long held an I seek a debate at the earliest possible oppor- auctioneer’s licence, even though I am not cur- tunity on this important and scandalous issue. rently practising, I spoke in that debate. We were all agreed on the issue in this House. None of us Mr. Quinn: When the State was founded, we condones what was referred to in the programme established a Garda force that was unarmed. Ten concerned, which I have not seen but about which or 20 years ago, if a murder took place in the I heard this morning on a radio programme. Any State in which a gun was involved, it received and all corrupt practices must be firmly rooted banner headlines. What happened recently in out. Kilkenny was very sad, but even more threaten- ing is what happened in Finglas this morning. I An Cathaoirleach: Does Senator Coghlan have know both areas very well. There are many a question? scared people not only in Finglas but in Dublin because of what happened this morning. Mr. Coghlan: I have. I would not be surprised at reprisals or at calls for different steps to be taken. We have a debate An Cathaoirleach: We will not debate the issue on policing tomorrow. That is the occasion to at length now as many Senators are offering. focus to see whether we can help to ensure that the police force which was established in the State Mr. Coghlan: I will not debate it. I appreciate so many years ago has the ability to achieve what that. I never hold up the Cathaoirleach. As has it set out to do, namely, to protect its citizens. Am been said, the commission made useful recom- I correct in saying the debate takes place here mendations tomorrow afternoon? 1261 Order of 12 December 2006. Business 1262

Ms O’Rourke: On policing? tion of the House to the scurrilous picture in the Irish Daily Star today of the Minister—— Mr. J. Phelan: Statements on defamation? An Cathaoirleach: It is not in order to exhibit Mr. Quinn: I thought there are to be statements newspapers in the House. on policing. Ms White: —— who had the courage to put her Ms Terry: Statements on the tribunals. proposal on the table. It is derogatory.

Ms O’Rourke: The Morris and Barr tribunals Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. and so on.

Mr. Quinn: Rather than call for new legislation Ms White: What it says about the Minister is, and new laws let us debate how we can ensure we “Mary the blood sucker”. That is disgusting Irish have the police force required to protect our journalism on a woman who is doing her level citizens. best for older people in Ireland.

Dr. Mansergh: I welcome the announcement at Mr. Norris: I agree with Senator White. I the weekend in response, inter alia, to calls made thought the headlines were appalling and irres- here that No. 16, Moore Street, is to be pre- ponsible. The Minister has put forward an served. It was the last point of repair of the 1916 interesting proposal. A degree of sensitivity is leaders and others before the surrender. I appeal required. It is possible to add to it because there to public authorities to show due sensitivity in is potential for unfairness. There are different their plans to historic properties whether because values for houses and it may affect some people of their historical or architectural importance. more than others. I have worked with Age Action I welcome the plan announced by the Minister Ireland and have heard it refer to this as an for Health and Children. We debated some of example of ageism. What does it expect in old these matters last week. It represents substantial people’s homes? It is not a maternity ward. Of progress. While there is detail that needs to be course it affects these people. This kind of silly teased out, it is an enlightened and progressive comment is regrettable. I do not believe there is move that has the potential to remove many of as much interest as people posture about either in the worries faced by families at present. the newspapers or politically even in this House. I spoke in the debate last week and it collapsed. Mr. Feighan: I condemn the savage death of Alan Cunniffe and the young man in Finglas. The Mr. Finucane: It did not collapse. instinct in all of us is the sense of the volunteer, to chase somebody who is robbing a post office Mr. Norris: It ended before the time allocated or a bank. I was in that situation more than ten had elapsed. years ago when a bank was raided beside me and I ran after the armed raiders. When I think now Ms O’Rourke: It ended five minutes early. of what could have happened my blood runs cold. I would like it to go out from this House that Mr. Norris: On drugs, I share the horror at the we have professional men and women, very brave death of this young man. It was only a matter of people, in the Garda Sı´ocha´na, and we should time before there were civilian casualties in this contact them because we are dealing with a sav- war. It is a very problematic area. This country age, violent criminals, rather than take our lives cannot handle it on its own. It is an international in our hands. That is not to take from the bravery problem. I take the very unpopular but realistic of the young man. I ask that the Ta´naiste and view that we need to legalise, license and control Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform these substances. What is driving the trade inter- come into the House for a debate on crime and nationally is the profit motive. Many of the coun- to outline what he intends to do. Clearly we have tries that are strongest in their condemnation of lost the battle in the fight against organised crime. drugs are the very ones that fuel it, such as the We do not want to go through another Christmas Governments of the United States and the with a repeat of what has happened during the United Kingdom, which turn a blind eye to the past few years. convoys going through Uzbekistan for their own political reasons. Ms White: In my document, A New Approach I join my colleagues in calling for a debate on to Aging and Ageism, I wrote extensively about the Middle East. Although I share Senator the financing of long-stay care for older people in Ryan’s views on the dreadful plight of the residential homes, both private and public. One Palestinians, I regret that, Ismail Haniyah, the of the points I made was that the issue of financ- Prime Minister designate of Palestine, said in ing of residential care for older people is divisive Tehran that he was on a jihad that would not end in society. I compliment the Minister for Health until the city of Jerusalem was re-conquered. Will and Children, Deputy Harney, for putting her the Leader request the Minister for Foreign proposal on the table yesterday. I draw the atten- Affairs to call in the Iranian ambassador and 1263 Order of 12 December 2006. Business 1264

[Mr. Norris.] years would like to see effective regulation. We rebuke him for the conference that is taking should take that approach as soon as possible. place? It is outrageous that this happens. Ms O’Rourke: In speaking about the dreadful Mr. Mooney: Hear, hear. double murder this morning in Finglas, Senator Brian Hayes observed that for many years we all Mr. Norris: The denial of the Holocaust is a worried privately and in our public discussions catastrophic moral blemish on the people of Iran. about the activities of subversives and that what is happening now is another type of subversion, An Cathaoirleach: Senator—— equally dangerous to that which occupied our minds for so long. He asked how the Minister for Mr. Norris: The people from the West should Justice, Equality and Law Reform proposes to have gone there to tell the truth. My final point deal with such summary executions. is—— The Senator also spoke about the expose´ of the housing market that featured on “Prime Time An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is getting Investigates” and, in particular, the connection great latitude. between mortgage companies and particular buy- ers. I agree the extraordinary evidence of insider Mr. Norris: An honourable Palestinian del- collusion is the worst aspect of the matter. First- egate from Nazareth wanted to attend and say time buyers must scrimp, save, beg, borrow and that the Holocaust had happened. The Iranians, cajole to purchase a home, and their entire future having issued an international invitation, refused and life aspirations are bound up in that. Some of to allow him to attend. They should have been these practices are already unlawful under exist- shown up by every reputable scholar from the ing legislation. The Data Protection Act 1988, for West turning up there to tell the truth. instance, imposes restrictions on the exchange of information about individuals. Mr. J. Phelan: I join colleagues in speaking about the armed crime of recent days involving a Senator O’Toole echoed Senator Brian Hayes’s number of murders. I condemn the activities of comments on the murders in Finglas. He also those who committed the crimes and urge the referred to the Competition Authority’s report Minister to become more active in pursuing those on the legal profession. The latter is the last fron- kinds of criminals. Senator Feighan spoke about tier in terms of the lack of a system of indepen- the particularly poignant case of Alan Cunniffe dent regulation. I was displeased with the com- in Kilkenny who had just taken over as postmas- ments of a certain director general — whom I will ter from his mother last Wednesday. We dis- not name — whose knee-jerk reaction involved a cussed post offices in this House on a number of defence of what had and had not been done and occasions. He was shot on the street outside his what would not be done in future. In many cases, post office on Friday. I never expected such an we are faced with mysteries wrapped up in event on the streets of Kilkenny, but it has now further mysteries. We all agree there are many happened. Such events are all too common and decent solicitors and barristers and many of us the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law depend on such people for our legal dealings. Reform, rather than directing his mock anger at There are many areas, however, in which we are the media, would be better served directing it at not allowed step into their world. I do not know the perpetrators of such horrific crimes. why this is the case. I agree with other Senators who expressed con- Senator Ryan observed that in the past, cern at the proposals announced yesterday by the members of the Garda Sı´ocha´na would attend Minister for Health and Children regarding nurs- any meeting in respect of which there was even ing home care and the possibility of making a link a suggestion of anything subversive. The Senator to deceased people who have been in receipt of called on the Minister for Justice, Equality and nursing home care of up to 15% of the value of Law Reform to attend the House to speak about their home. We should have an early discussion resources and priorities for the force. on the issue. I do not agree with it. He also called for a debate on the nursing home proposals. The Minister for Health and Mr. Leyden: Deputy Twomey did. Children, Deputy Harney, said in a television interview last night that she wishes to facilitate a Mr. B. Hayes: More misrepresentation. regime of consultation on the matter. She has given me an undertaking to come into the House Ms White: It is 5% for one. in the first week of the new session to discuss her proposals. Committee and Report Stages of the Mr. J. Phelan: A number of sources have men- Health (Nursing Homes) (Amendment) Bill 2006 tioned 15%. I agree with other Senators who will be taken in the House after Christmas. By its have called for regulation of auctioneers and val- nature, however, Committee Stage is a truncated uers. I do not have the in-depth knowledge of mechanism. I welcome the Minister’s undertaking Senator Ross. It is my understanding that many to discuss the matter with Senators. Her pro- people who are involved in this business for many posals are worthy of debate. 1265 Order of 12 December 2006. Business 1266

Senator Ryan reminded us of the sufferings of heard an imam this morning on the radio claiming the Palestinian people and observed that large there were 60 people killed in the Holocaust. numbers of them face slow and painful deaths Senator Terry added her voice to the condem- through hunger and disease. He asked that all our nation of the terrible killings in Dublin and gun consciences be finally awakened on this matter. crime. Senator Hanafin called for a debate on Senator Leyden referred to the shooting dead nursing homes. The Minister for Health and Chil- of the postmaster in County Kilkenny. He also dren has already stated she wants a debate on the spoke about the Competition Authority’s report subject. He spoke of the attractive nature of long- on the legal profession. I agree the “Prime Time term bonds which would be productively used in Investigates” investigation was powerful in the the care of the elderly. He also spoke of the way it got to the heart of the matter. We were situation in Iran. already aware of many of the issues but it is Senator Tuffy is against lowering the age of hugely important that they were highlighted in sexual consent. She wants a further debate on this conjunction with related matters in this way. and the child protection report. She called for a Senator Finucane referred to the photograph referendum to give more emphasis to the rights of the Minister of State at the Department of Fin- of the child in the Constitution. My fear is that ance, Deputy Parlon, and the Minister for Justice, this will be inadvertently linked to the furore over Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, at the lowering of the age of sexual consent. It will the official opening of the Data Protection Com- be muddied up in it when the rights of the child missioner’s office in Portarlington. There is stand on its own merits. nothing unusual in such a joint appearance. Senator Glynn called for a debate on planning I agree with the Senator that the saddest aspect enforcement and the completion of housing of today’s double murder is that the young estates by developers as the taxpayer and the apprentice plumber was an entirely innocent and innocent end up paying for it. He also called for unwitting murder victim. He heard and saw what a debate on the recently published nursing home took place and his life was deemed expendable. proposals of which he is in favour. We must check His murderers simply got rid of him in case his the small print and see what the proposals really presence at the scene of the crime posed any mean. danger to themselves. Senator Coghlan called for a debate on auc- Senator Finucane also referred to specialised tioneers. Senator Jim Walsh called for a debate programmes for people who have been in certain on the Competition Authority’s report on the types of job and may want to change, particularly legal profession. I cannot understand why the in the case of the Castlemahon Foods workers. I legal profession does not see it as a good move. will convey the Senator’s views to the Minister Maybe we were lazy, but we have adopted the for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. same format as used in the Da´il to discuss the various tribunals and reports on the Garda. Mr. Finucane: My point is that the limitation Senator Walsh believes we should have included for such courses should not be at a maximum of the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, the murder of \650. Seamus Ludlow and the bombing of Kay’s Tav- ern in Dundalk. On matters such as this, the Ms O’Rourke: Yes. Senator Ormonde called for a debate on auctioneering and congratulated Seanad takes its lead from the Taoiseach’s office. the Minister for Health and Children on her I will see if there is a chance to include the reports imaginative scheme for care for the elderly. on collusion between security forces and loyalists. The weather on Sunday was dreadful but I Senator Quinn claimed that after the recent thoroughly enjoyed Senator Ross’s article in the gun crimes many are in fear. He believes there will be a regime of reprisals for today’s murders. Sunday Independent. It was a clever piece in ´ which, under the name Sea´n de Rossa, he applied Senator Mansergh is glad, as is Senator O for an auctioneer’s licence and received it in six Murchu´ , that 16 Moore Street will be preserved. weeks. He spoke of auctioneers handling vast He also welcomed the proposals on care for the sums of other people’s money without being elderly from the Minister for Health and Children supervised. They have always had immense politi- which he thought were enlightened and pro- cal clout. It is not just a few cowboys. Last night’s gressive. “Prime Time Investigates” programme showed Senator Feighan spoke of today’s Finglas mur- auctioneers are already in breach of the Data ders. He also pointed out that when he was a Protection Act by exchanging intimate infor- shopkeeper he chased criminals from his shop. A mation about property deals. similar incident to that in Kilkenny could have Senator Mooney spoke feelingly about the happened to him. The Garda is the only barrier apprentice killed on a caprice in Finglas today. between us and criminals. He was killed because he just happened to be in Senator White praised the Minister for Health a particular place. He got himself a good training. and Children. She spoke of the repugnant depic- Senator Mooney also referred to the students in tion of the Minister in one of today’s newspapers. Teheran who shouted out that there was a Holo- We need a press council to deal with such caust. I do not know what they are at in Iran. I matters. It was awful and I could only think of 1267 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1268

[Ms O’Rourke.] (i) Regional Fisheries Boards how the Minister would feel looking at it. We are (Postponement of Elections) Order 2006, supposed to have thick skins but we have not. copies of which were laid before Seanad ´ Mr. Mooney: The Leader has been there Eireann on 6th December, 2006. herself. (ii) Fisheries (Miscellaneous Commercial Licences) (Alteration of Duties) Order 2006, Ms O’Rourke: Senator Norris claimed the nursing homes Bill collapsed last week. I was in copies of which were laid before Seanad the Chamber for what was a lively debate on the E´ ireann on 7th December, 2006, Bill. Every Member who wished to speak on it be referred to the Joint Committee on had an opportunity to do so. It did not collapse Communications, Marine and Natural in the real meaning of the term. It ended five Resources, in accordance with paragraph (1) minutes earlier than its allocated time. (Seanad) of the Orders of Reference of that Committee, which, not later than 14 December Mr. Norris: It would have collapsed earlier if I 2006, shall send a message to Seanad in the had not come from a meeting and spoke on it. manner prescribed in Standing Order 67, and Ms O’Rourke: Senator Norris spoke very well Standing Order 69(2) shall accordingly apply. in the debate about his dear aunt who was in the Alexandria nursing home. Senator Norris called Question put and agreed to. for the Minister for Foreign Affairs to call in the Iranian ambassador to rebuke him on a con- Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: Order for ference being held in Tehran. Second Stage. Senator John Paul Phelan spoke on armed crime in Finglas and the killing of the postmaster Bill entitled an Act to repeal and to amend in County Kilkenny. The victim did have sections of the National Cultural Institutions Roscommon connections. Senator Phelan also Act 1997; to establish a Heraldic Authority for called for a debate on the nursing home proposals Ireland and provide for the functions, duties and the regulation of auctioneers. and powers thereof; to regularise and modern- ise the delivery of heraldic services by the Order of Business agreed to. State; to establish and make provision for an Office of Arms consisting of Prı´omh-Aralt na Criminal Justice Act 1984 (Treatment of hE´ ireann (Chief Herald of Ireland) and Leas- Persons in Custody in Garda Sı´ocha´na Stations) Phrı´omharalt na hE´ ireann (Deputy Chief Her- (Amendment) Regulations 2006: Referral to ald of Ireland); to define, coordinate and estab- Joint committee. lish procedures for the delivery of heraldic, Mr. Dardis: I move: vexillological and genealogical services by the State and for the formulation of policy in That the proposal that Seanad E´ ireann respect of such matters; to provide for the approves the draft of the Criminal Justice Act maintenance, protection, legal custody and 1984 (Treatment of Persons in Custody in public accessibility of records pertaining to the Garda Sı´ocha´na Stations) (Amendment) Regu- functions above; to provide for the retrospec- lations 2006, a copy of which was laid before tive confirmation of Grants of Arms made by Seanad E´ ireann on 1 December 2006, be the non-statutory Genealogical Office in the referred to the Joint Committee on Justice, name of the Chief Herald of Ireland on behalf Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights, in of the State since 1943 and to amend the law accordance with paragraph (1) (Seanad) of the relating to the heraldic functions of the State Orders of Reference of that Committee, which, and to provide for related matters. not later than 14 December 2006, shall send a message to the Seanad in the manner pre- Mr. Ryan: I move: “That Second Stage be scribed in Standing Order 67, and Standing taken today.” Order 69(2) shall accordingly apply. Question put and agreed to. Question put and agreed to. Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: Second Regional Fisheries Boards (Postponement of Stage. Elections) Order 2006 Mr. Ryan: I move: “That the Bill be now read Fisheries (Miscellaneous Commercial Licences) a Second Time.” (Alteration of Duties) Order 2006: Referral to Cuirim fı´or-chaoin fa´ilte roimh an Aire Joint Committee. Ealaı´on, Spo´ irt agus Turaso´ ireachta. Bı´onn mise agus an tAire ar aon aigne faoi a la´n rudaı´ o´ am Mr. Dardis: I move: go ham. Ta´ a fhios aige go bhfuil roinnt mhaith That the proposal that Seanad E´ ireann suim agam i cuid bheag da´ Dha´ilcheantar. Ta´ a approve the following Orders in draft: 1269 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1270 fhios aige fo´ s gur fe´idir linn aontu´ faoi rudaı´ o´ am of this Minister’s more distinguished pre- go ham, ach nı´ fios cad a de´arfaidh se´ inniu. decessors. I thank the Minister and the Government for The provision in that Act states: facilitating this debate in Government time. I (1) For the avoidance of doubt, it is hereby particularly thank the Leader and Deputy Leader declared that the Genealogical Office is a of the House, Senators O’Rourke and Dardis, respectively, and various colleagues on both sides branch of the Library. [That is, the National of the House who have expressed an interest in Library]. something that to many people might seem (2) The Board shall, from time to time as obscure but which is, in fact, a significant issue. It occasion requires, designate a member of its is the type of issue with which the Oireachtas, in staff to perform the duty of researching, grant- conflict mode, would never get around to dealing ing and confirming coats of arms and such but with which the Seanad, in slightly more member shall use the appellation Chief Herald reflective mode, should be able to deal. of Ireland or, in the Irish language, Prı´omh- This Bill is not some type of esoteric under- Aralt na hE´ ireann while performing such taking but is part of the way modern and demo- duties. cratic societies organise themselves. Like many things in modern society, its roots lie in a very The Genealogical Office is declared to be a ancient tradition. I am intrigued by the fact that branch of the National Library but the Genea- countries as ancient as the United Kingdom and logical Office is not founded in legislation any- as modern as the Republic of South Africa both where. The body does not have a legislative or consider it necessary to have heraldry Acts, a legal basis, or that is the argument. This is not state herald and a bureau of heraldry. We like just esoteric; it relates to our heritage. This dates symbols; they express our identity. There is a skill back to more than 600 years ago. It relates to how and a good deal of artistry involved. we deal with symbols, flags and the like. The idea of recognising heraldry and of giving The provision in the 1997 Act, on the basis of it only under regulated conditions is ancient. The which the existing Chief Herald was established, first record of a herald of arms for Ireland dates was always questioned by people involved in back to 1382, more than 620 years ago. The office specialist genealogical services. However, in 2002 of Ulster King of Arms which, peculiarly, became a report appeared in the newspapers and it has the awarder of arms in Ireland was established not, to my knowledge, been contradicted. It by King Edward VI in 1552. Some people might, stated that the Attorney General had advised the somewhere in our hearts, have reservations about Minister in June 2002 that there was no legislative his jurisdiction to make such decisions even then basis for courtesy recognition of the Gaelic chiefs. — it took a long time to sort out that issue — but He went on to state that there was no legislative he was the legal authority at the time. He even basis for the granting of arms by the Chief Herald noted it in his diary on 2 February that year. on behalf of the State. That is the reported advice The Ulster King of Arms, the first of whom of the Attorney General. I am familiar with the was a Bartholomew Butler, persisted in that role rigmarole that it is not practice to disclose the from 1552 until 1941. Nobody is sure where the advice of the Attorney General but the fact that use of the term “Ulster” came from; it does not the report has not been contradicted suggests relate to the province but is an adjective that was there must be some truth in it. We are, therefore, used. The deputy Ulster King of Arms continued in a peculiar legal quagmire. in office until 1943, when the powers were trans- Why should that matter? It leaves open the ferred from the United Kingdom to the State and possibility that arms which have been issued, the office of the Chief Herald of Ireland was including those of many organisations, are open established. That redoubtable figure in Irish to legal misuse and abuse. It leaves open the literature and history, Dr. Edward MacLysaght, question of whether the issue of arms is copy- was the first Chief Herald of Ireland. right. I have made the point, a little mischievously Why tell the history? When something’s origins but without attempting to distort, that if there is are buried in the mists of history, questions of no proper and enforceable legal protection for legalities can arise. The problem is that the the issue of arms, the coat of arms of Uachtara´n transfer of the office of arms to Irish control was na hE´ ireann, for example, could be used by some- done without any legal enactment. There was body who opens a lap dancing club, calls it “The considerable concern about that. That concern Presidents” and uses that coat of arms as an persisted. The records and the office were trans- emblem of the club. ferred but the legislative basis for this is murky, If the legal basis is as seriously non-existent as at the least, and, in the opinion of some, unsus- I am told, this issue raises fundamental questions. tainable. Attempts were made to resolve the It is part of what we need to do to guard our problem in the National Cultural Institutions Act heritage. This Bill is an attempt to respond to that 1997, which was introduced by my esteemed col- uncertainty and to give the matter proper legal league, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, who was footing. I am not optimistic. I read the Minister’s Minister at the time. Without casting aspersions dismissive response to questions raised by a on the current Minister’s distinction, he was one Member of the other House saying that since 1271 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1272

[Mr. Ryan.] Mr. Ryan: I said it is not capable of ambiguous board of the National Library of Ireland had not interpretation, so I am right. informed him of any deficiencies, there are none. I imagine the board of the National Library of Mr. O’Donoghue: Senator Norris is being vex- Ireland has a long list of matters to deal with and illogical. that a matter such as this, which is to do with the legislative base of the protection of a specific part Mr. Norris: I am being vexillatious. of our heritage, would be a matter for Govern- ment. It would be interesting if the Minister Dr. Mansergh: An explanation of its meaning asked the board its opinion and how it felt the is called for, although it is not ambiguous. interpretation of others in this area differs from its own. It would be interesting if he asked the Mr. Ryan: With a literary giant on either side board members in confidence how they feel the of me I am reluctant to become entangled. Attorney General’s advice can be reconciled with However Senator Mansergh is also wrong. their apparent willingness to accept the situation. I have often sat in this House going through Mr. Norris: This is an anti-Protestant plot. The long Bills section by section with Ministers. The Senator did not attend Trinity College. House will be spared that because I do not have Mr. Ryan: Of course, and Senator Quinn is time to go through the entire Bill. It contains 40 also involved. sections, six Parts and three Schedules. It is appropriate to mention the sections of the Bill. Mr. Norris: He is an honorary Protestant. The Bill has a long list of objectives, including the regularisation of the delivery of the services, Mr. Ryan: This legislation is a classic example which is not being done, and performs a variety of the sort of work Seanad E´ ireann can do that of functions, including the establishment of the will not be done anywhere else. I appeal to the office of arms with a firm legal basis, assigning Minister to let the debate persist. If we vote it responsibility for the management, control and down now, the people who believe it is necessary administration of the office of arms within the will begin again. Their agenda is not political but National Library, providing for the granting of relates to our heritage. They want to see the res- arms, which we are told the Attorney General has olution of what they believe to be ambiguity. Per- advised may not be legally grounded, and provid- haps the Minister can offer clear, unequivocal ing for copyright matters because without a clear advice that there is no need for this. Apart from and unambiguous position on copyright of arms, the issue of the register of arms, there are other they can be copied, thus undermining the purpose issues regarding quality, services, accessibility and of the issue of unique arms. copyright, and I hope the Minister will deal with The Bill also aims to give a less expensive them. method of granting arms, give Prı´omh-Aralt na I ask the Minister not to let us get involved in ´ hEireann responsibility for the overall policy and an argument about details in this legislation that delivery of such services, provide retrospective the Minister feels are inconsistent. In the past two confirmation of grants of arms issued since 1943, years I have been responsible for two Govern- establish a new register of emblems and provide ment Bills having to return to the Da´il late in the for such and provide for the appointment by summer because they contained mistakes. If the licence of heraldic and vexillogical agents. Vexil- Minister wants the names of these Bills I will tell lology relates to flags. Even Senator Norris was him. One of them, the National Economic and defeated by that word. Social Development Office Bill, had sat in the Da´il for four years and contained a fundamental Mr. Norris: No, but I looked it up in the Bill contradiction. Any inadequacies or mistakes can to see if Senator Ryan had defined it, which he be remedied on Committee Stage. That is what had not. Committee Stage is for and we can have a long, leisurely reflection on this over Christmas and Mr. Ryan: My advice is that it does not need pursue it gently in the new year. The alternative to be defined. One does not need to define in is to vote it down, in which case the same people legislation words that have only one meaning. will begin it again in January. Until they are con- Since this word has only one meaning, it does not vinced that there is no need for it, this issue will need to be defined. Only words that are capable surface, as it has done intermittently for the past of ambiguous interpretation need to be defined 60 years. in legislation. Since this word is not capable of ambiguous interpretation—— Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): I am pleased to have been asked Mr. Norris: Senator Ryan indicated it needed to speak to this House on a Private Members’ Bill to be defined. and I congratulate Senator Ryan on bringing it forward. I remind this House of the excellent pro- Acting Chairman (Mr. Brady): Senator Ryan gress this Government has made in recent times without interruption. in supporting the arts. The total expenditure for 1273 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1274 my Department in 2007 will be \698.6 million, Overall funding of \19.7 million will be allo- which is up by 17.6% over 2006. Of this, \216.56 cated to the Irish Film Board in 2007. This million is for arts and culture, an increase of increase will enable the board to continue its 8.65% on a record 2006 expenditure. In recent essential role of developing and sup- years the arts, sport and tourism sectors have 4 o’clock porting the indigenous industry. The received unprecedented tangible support from increased current allocation will the Government in terms of increased financial facilitate the board in marketing Ireland as a film allocations. Since 2003, current funding has been location and will assist the work of the newly increased by 43.4% or \121 million, but capital appointed official in Los Angeles in raising the funding has increased by 147.5% or \178 million. profile of the Irish audiovisual industry abroad. That is before taking account of the public private This provision underlies the sustained Govern- partnership allocations for the redevelopment of ment support for the board that has seen its allo- the National Concert Hall and the new Abbey cation increase by 60% since 2002. Theatre. I am delighted that the sectors have A 50% increase in funding has been secured acknowledged such support and responded with for Culture Ireland to ensure that Irish art is pro- vibrancy and innovation in their programmes. moted both at home and abroad. Taken together The arts are a response to our individuality and with the 50% increase secured in 2006, this rep- our nature. They demonstrate and shape our resents unprecedented Government support for identity as a people. They can become the driving the arts. I will continue to highlight the necessity force for healing division and divisiveness as well to invest in the arts. The Government must nour- as a potent economic force. Nobody can question ish the broader aspects of society and should not this Government’s commitment to the arts. The weigh up all matters in purely economic terms. Arts Council is the main vehicle through which Artists and the arts, in conjunction with the State support is channelled to the arts and the national cultural institutions, seek to promote a Government’s ongoing commitment to the arts more rounded development of our country and sector is well demonstrated with an allocation of our lives. After many years of neglect, I have \80 million to the Arts Council in 2007. Artists striven to increase Government investment in and arts organisations should see the decision to arts and culture and will continue to do so as provide a further substantial increase, following Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism. Under my on from the 18% increase provided in 2006, to stewardship the arts have been pushed boldly into the Arts Council as confirmation of the high the core of Government policy. regard in which Government holds the arts and The Genealogy and Heraldry Bill concerns one culture sectors. of our national institutions, the National Library of Ireland, in which I have taken keen interest Mr. Norris: Could the Acting Chairman draw over the past few years. When I first assumed the Minister’s attention to the subject of the Bill? office as Minister with responsibility for the arts, one of my objectives was the reinvigoration of the Acting Chairman: The Minister without national cultural institutions. The National Cul- interruption. tural Institutions Act had only been partly enabled. Two of our most venerable institutions Mr. O’Donoghue: I am sure we will get there. then formed part of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. These were the National Mr. Norris: It is approximately half way down Library of Ireland and the National Museum of page two of the copy of his speech. Ireland, which had over the years come under the aegis of the Department of the Taoiseach and the Mr. O’Donoghue: Commitment to the arts Department of Education. I was keen to move infrastructure is further evidenced in the con- both of these institutions out of my Department tinued funding under the arts and culture capital and make them independent under their own enhancement support scheme, ACCESS for a boards. It never made sense to me that such wide range of capital projects at new and existing specialised institutions should form part of a venues throughout the country. Again the Department and they would be better placed to Government has been able to provide a substan- deliver as statutorily independent entities. I also tial increase for the national cultural institutions sought to avail of the opportunity to provide an such as the National Museum, National Library, environment that facilitated 21st century govern- National Archives, National Gallery, Chester ance and accountability infrastructure in these Beatty Library, Irish Museum of Modern Art and institutions. After much negotiation with staff National Concert Hall. As Minister for Arts, and the Department of Finance, both the Sport and Tourism I am proud of the work under- National Museum and the National Library were taken by these institutions. I am confident they made autonomous in May 2005 under the will continue to be an easily accessible resource National Cultural Institutions Act. In each case I to all our citizens and visitors. I commend the role appointed strong, independent boards. they play both as a tourism asset and as edu- There remain some matters to be finalised cational facilities. I will return to the matter of under the Act, such as export licensing for the the National Library. National Museum and extending mandatory 1275 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1276

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] heraldic services. While it will take time for those deposit for the National Library. However, I am new arrangements to fully settle down I have no convinced that the ability of both institutions to reason to speculate on their effectiveness. discharge their functions has been immeasurably The 1997 Act gave the board of the National improved with independence and substantial Library the power to facilitate, encourage, assist additional resources. and promote the granting and confirming of coats Within the past year and a half both institutions of arms. The Act also declared that the genealogi- have made good strides in independent guises. cal office was a branch of the National Library The National Museum recently opened a new and provided that a member of the library’s staff permanent exhibition at Collins Barracks, which would be designated to perform the duty of deals for the first time with the history of the Irish researching, granting and confirming coats of soldier at home and abroad and in many different arms and would use the appellation Chief Herald uniforms. This exhibition is entitled “Soldiers and of Ireland. The board of the National Library Chiefs”, an appropriate title for a future Private established the committee on genealogy and her- Members’ Bill. aldry, provided for in section 13 of the 1997 Act, The National Library of Ireland is similarly on and designated a staff member to use the appel- a sound footing. It is currently hosting a seminal lation Chief Herald. The position had been vac- exhibition on William Butler Yeats, poet, roman- ant for two years. tic and distinguished former Member of this Through the committee on genealogy and her- House. Last month the National Library won a aldry the board has been reviewing issues relating major award for the outstanding way in which it to the granting of arms, including eligibility to informs and involves the public. The award was apply for grants of arms, the procedures for from the Association for Heritage Interpretation granting of arms, the wording of grants of arms, and it singled out the National Library’s current etc. The Bill attempts to legislate in considerable exhibition on Yeats as a magnificent example of detail for matters such as this. Such level of detail the way in which the library interacts with the is not appropriate to primary legislation. Having public. Over 30,000 people have visited the exhi- entrusted matters of genealogy and heraldry to bition to date and I exhort Members to make sure the board of the National Library, there is no they do so. I congratulate the board, director and reason the board should not be allowed to deal staff of the National Library on this success. with such matters as it has been doing since it In the case of press publications the National was established. Library of Ireland seems to fascinate in the There has been speculation in the media — matter of heraldry and what were dubbed chiefs humorous, petulant and otherwise — as to of the name. It must be some medieval mystique whether the provisions of the legislation provide that attracts people in a constitutional republic to an adequate basis for the granting of arms by the such relics of history. The Government is not in Chief Herald. If this were the case I would a position to support Senator Ryan’s Bill. I com- expect, as I indicated in a response to a mend the Senator for the work that he and others parliamentary question on 7 November, that the have clearly put into the Bill. While I appreciate board of the National Library would bring any his interest in this area of public administration I deficiencies in the legislation to my attention. The am unconvinced of the need for this Bill. Nothing board is the statutory body responsible for this I have heard from the Senator today leads me particular area and it is best placed to advise me to believe—— on the appropriateness or otherwise of its statu- tory framework. Mr. Ryan: How did the Minister know what I Regarding genealogy, the 1997 Act assigns lim- would say before I said it? ited functions to the National Library. A number of statutory bodies have responsibility for the Mr. O’Donoghue: —— that there is a need for management and delivery of genealogical this proposed legislation and for the elaborate services. I am not clear as to why a greater role and presumably expensive structures proposed. is now envisaged for the National Library in this area rather than any other public body. I do not Mr. Ryan: There should be some subtlety in see the justification for assigning such significant the scriptwriting. responsibilities to the National Library. It would require a considerable level of analysis to see if Mr. O’Donoghue: There are not significant it would lead to any significant improvement on issues of public interest that would justify the existing arrangements. parliamentary time and administrative resources The Bill proposes an elaborate structure for the in my Department required to process this Bill. delivery of heraldic services. I am not convinced New legislative measures were put in place on of the need for such a structure. There is little 3 May last year regarding heraldry when sections merit in the proposal and it is difficult to justify 12 and 13 of the National Cultural Institutions the additional expenditure. Heraldry is a small Act came into effect. These set out what I and specialised area and I am not clear why an elabor- my predecessors believed were the appropriate ate administrative structure might be needed to arrangements for the promotion and delivery of deal with it. To create a number of additional 1277 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1278 public posts in this area, particularly posts that intervention and I am even less clear as to how would require a degree of expertise that may not the area of vexillogy—— exist, is difficult to justify. I am not in a position to sanction the creation of such posts given the Mr. Norris: Stress the second symbol. It is an current restrictions on staffing in the public iamb. service. It is proposed that the posts of Chief Herald Mr. O’Donoghue: ——fits in with the core and Deputy Chief Herald be created within the functions of the National Library. National Library but with Civil Service status. I thank Senator Ryan for his efforts but I have This ignores the fact that since the establishment to say that the newly-appointed board of the NLI of the board of the National Library on 3 May must be allowed to fulfil its role and functions in 2005 professional staff ceased to be civil servants matters related to genealogy and heraldry. I and became employees of the board. The Bill realise the Senator has worked extremely hard on seems to suggest a dual structure where a Chief the Bill and has put much effort into it, which Herald, who was a civil servant, would report sim- should not go without acknowledgement. I note ultaneously to the board of the library and to a what he has stated about the matter resurfacing Minister of the Government. It is difficult to see again if it is voted down, and he is unquestionably how it would work in practice. Even chief heralds correct in that. Although it is a very specialised cannot serve two masters. Nı´ fe´idir leis an ngoba- area, those concerned with it have a great da´nanda´ thra´ a fhreastal. interest. As a man said, when they have an opinion, they have an opinion. Mr. Ryan: Nı´ fe´idir leis an Rialtas an reachtaı´- Rather than see the Bill voted down, I would ocht a leasu´ . prefer if the Senator agreed, after an informed debate, to withdraw the legislation so the issues Mr. O’Donoghue: I have concerns about the raised within the Bill can be considered by the proposals for the registration and granting of statutory board of the National Library. I will arms. The constitutionality of the proposal to undertake to go to the board with the legislation grant emeritus arms to meritorious individuals and ask it to give the issue very careful consider- requires clarification. I am not satisfied that the ation. It would not be right to second guess a new granting of emeritus arms is an appropriate institution so soon after its establishment. I would method of recognising meritorious individuals. like the board to have the opportunity of care- fully considering Senator Ryan’s Bill. The The Bill proposes to grant retrospective confir- Senator may be aware that the chairperson of the mation to grants of arms made between 1 April National Library is Mr. Gerry Danaher, an emi- 1943 and the present. Not only has the need for nent senior counsel who may have some ideas such a procedure not been established but even from his own background with regard to how if it had, its constitutionality would need to be matters might proceed. fully considered. Although I am not accepting the legislation, I The Bill provides for the designation of Gaelic acknowledge the work which has gone into it and chieftainship in grants of arms. This is an issue the motivation for it. I know of Senator Ryan’s that has arisen previously and led to practical deep interest and understanding of our culture. difficulties in determining eligibility regarding use De´anaim comhghairdeas leis an Seanado´ ir arı´st. of the appellation of Gaelic chieftainship. I am Ta´ me´ buı´och de as ucht an me´id oibre a chuir se´ not in favour of legislating for this issue and I am isteach sa Bhille seo. of the view that it is a matter for persons styled as Gaelic chiefs to devise procedures that would Mr. Feighan: I welcome the Minister to the clarify the line of descent. I do not see any role House and I welcome the Bill, which is designed for the State in this process and I also must point to regularise the delivery of heraldic services by out the apparent irony and historical contradic- the State. Up to the point of passing the National tion in suggesting that the determinant for Gaelic Cultural Institutions Act 1997, these functions chiefship is that of primogeniture, the first-born were performed by the Office of the Chief Herald male, when this was not the system used by clans of Ireland. When the 1997 Bill was passed, the and septs to select Gaelic chiefs. This is, however, genealogical office was referred to as a branch of a moot point. the National Library, although the legislation did On the issue of a national vexillogical register, not explicitly establish such an office or provide a register of flags, I am unconvinced of the need for its functions. for such a register. This is not an area coming The Council of Irish Genealogical Organis- under the aegis of my Department at present and ations welcomes the publication of the Bill and I see no compelling case for legislating for it. The acknowledges that it would never have reached this Government would have to be clearly convinced stage without the hard work of Michael Merrigan that existing arrangements, such as they might be, of the Genealogical Society of Ireland. The Bill are unsatisfactory before it would consider legis- proposes some far-reaching changes which, to use lation of the extent proposed in the Bill. I am not the Bill’s own wording, would “regularise the clear why this is an area that requires legislative delivery of heraldic services by the State”. 1279 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1280

[Mr. Feighan.] which would have the effect of opening the 1926 We have read in the press over the past few census returns to researchers. Currently, the weeks about the issue of heraldry in Ireland and returns for this census are held by the National the State’s role in it through the Office of the Archives. Some might baulk at the idea of open- Chief Herald, attached to the National Library. ing census data before the completion of a hun- While some of the coverage was informative, dred-year period since the taking of the census, other stories unfortunately did little to make the but neither the Genealogical Society of Ireland case for change and seemed only framed at nor the Council of Irish Genealogical Organis- embarrassing the authorities. I hope the Govern- ations is suggesting that census returns should ment’s decision not to accept the Bill is not a routinely be opened early. The issue could be knee-jerk reaction to unfavourable press considered. statements. In this case the argument relies upon the fact There appears to be differing views on whether that Ireland’s earlier 19th century census records the Office of the Chief Herald, also known as the were destroyed in the fire which consumed the genealogical office — which I am finding difficult Irish public records during the civil war in 1922. to pronounce — was established in such a way as Contrary to popular belief, the 1926 census to allow it to grant arms after it was transferred returns do not include anything like the detail by the British to the State in 1943. Those who required in modern census returns. The infor- question its status to grant arms rely upon the mation recorded is little different to the minimal ambiguity surrounding the royal prerogative in amount of detail recorded in the surviving 1901 Ireland during the years between 1943 and the and 1911 census returns. establishment of the Republic in 1949. However, Interestingly, those returns were first opened the whole issue is so complicated that whatever is to researchers, without any public objection or decided through legislation is unlikely to find fav- demonstration then or since, as early as 1961 on our with all. foot of a warrant made by the Minister with Another argument is that there can only be one responsibility for Justice under the Public legitimate authority able to grant arms in Ireland, Records (Ireland) Act 1867. This was only 50 the State, of which we are all part. Thus, whether years after the 1911 census was compiled. It is legislatively or not, this responsibility is currently the general view that this Bill, if not ultimately exercised on behalf of the State through the accepted by the Government, should at least Office of the Chief Herald. If it should be that stimulate the various authorities to look in the Chief Herald has no responsibility in this greater detail at the State’s delivery of heraldic area, does it indicate the Chief Herald is currently services and access to the State’s genealogical presiding over what I may term an “illegal records. armed operation”? The Bill will provide for the registration and To again quote the Bill, it also provides for protection of the arms of Ireland such as the “proper management and co-ordination of the presidential standard, flags and the emblems of delivery of genealogical services in the State”. the Irish Defence Forces and the Garda Sı´ocha´na. There has been growth since the early 1980s of It reminds me that a few years ago, the GAA had the various county-based genealogical indexing to change its emblem which was not protected. centres across both this State and Northern The Bill provides a template which the State or Ireland, and I saw it as part of the tourism infra- recognised vendors could work with for structure in Strokestown, County Roscommon, in marketing. the lean 1980s when we had no significant tourism The scheme was designed to recognise the infrastructure. It was welcome for so many Cana- enormous contribution made by the Irish dias- dians, Americans and Australians coming to our pora. We are discussing family names. For hun- county to look up genealogical services. It has dreds of years people were called Malone or been a recognised part of our tourism through O’Fiachain. However, they were so engrossed in the years. scraping out a livelihood during difficult times, Very recently the Government has reorganised they did not have time to research their families’ how it operates Irish Genealogy Limited, the traditions or ancestors. company through which it funds the various We must welcome the fact that the Irish dias- indexing centres. Senators will recall, for instance, pora got on very well. For far too long we thought that reference to genealogy, in the guise of the about the people in New York, London, Glasgow General Register Office, has many times over the and Liverpool. Through good fortune, some did years been raised on behalf of those annoyed at better financially than others. However, they are the lack of proper access to the historical records all part of the Irish diaspora and I remind people held by that office. If this Bill was allowed to pro- of that. gress to the Statute Book, perhaps issues such as On St. Patrick’s Day we spend our time travel- the General Register Office might be more ling to places deemed to be more successful, such adequately addressed. as New York, Chicago and Washington. Ministers The most clear improvement the Bill would go to Singapore and Sidney. I do not want to take make to accessing State records would be to sug- away from this. I was very proud to be in Chicago gest an amendment to the Statistics Act 1993, this year. However, it would be nice to see Irish 1281 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1282

Ministers recognising the diaspora in Glasgow, society as a whole. I see heraldry as very much Liverpool and other places which are not as part of our daily lives. Many of the sporting colourful as Sydney or Washington. We must organisations I am associated with proudly wear recognise that people left Ireland in difficult local and county crests on their jerseys as they times. They went to the shipyards on the Clyde take the field. and the Tyne and worked in coalmines in Through my work on tourism in this House, I Nottingham. have become aware of the great value of our heri- We consider the Irish diaspora with great pride tage and history. Much of our tourism could be and recount how well Irish people did in New described as heraldic tourism with huge numbers York and consider those who are presidents of travelling to Ireland to trace their ancestors and corporations. I am equally as proud of the people their roots. As such, I have a high level of respect who stand on the terraces in Celtic Park, also for those providing such services to members of known as Paradise, who espouse their love for the public, organisations and institutions. Ireland. They may not have the finances to exam- However, this Bill, although brought to the ine their ancestry and the Government should House with good intentions supporting a noble recognise that. profession, is unnecessary and would lead to The Irish diaspora has millions of people excessive legislation. throughout the world, all of whom we should Section 13 of the National Cultural Institutions recognise and not only the President of the Act 1997 provides for a genealogical and heraldic United States. We should be equally proud of the service. During the 20th Seanad, my colleague, people who left Ireland during the 1950s and fell Senator Mooney, achieved 28 amendments to the on hard times in London and Cricklewood and text of the Bill which appeased many concerns cherish them as much as those we espouse from of the interested parties at the time of the Bill’s platforms on St. Patrick’s Day. enactment. That Act adequately provides for the President McAleese was involved in the design heraldic services. of her coat of arms. The motto of her coat of The 1997 Act established a genealogy office arms is “Come to the Edge”, from a poem by with a chief herald responsible for research. This Christopher Logue which the President quoted in office is under the autonomous control of the her inaugural address in November 1997. Above National Library and I believe this office is more the shield is a helmet and the crest on top is an than adequate for the needs of the genealogical oak tree complete with acorns. It is stated the oak field and that additional legislation is unnecess- is a reference to the President’s association with ary. The board of the National Library has not my county, County Roscommon. alerted the Department of Arts, Sport and Tour- I commend this Bill to the House and support ism to any deficiencies in the 1997 legislation that it. It aims to make services more accessible to the may serve to hinder the work of the Chief Herald. ordinary citizens of Ireland by creating a new and Neither has there been any challenge to the legal less expensive procedure for obtaining a coat of basis of the office. Therefore, I believe that arms for individuals, institutions, clubs and cor- section 13 of the National Cultural Institutions porate bodies. It will mean sports clubs, schools, Act 1997 adequately provides a legal basis for the societies and others will be able to register a coat work of the Chief Herald and that this Bill is not of arms and obtain legal protection for their necessary in order to protect Irish genealogy unique heraldic symbols. and heraldry. I commend Senator Ryan on promoting the I thank the Minister for taking time to come to Bill. It has created a debate in this House. On the House to speak on this matter. I will leave it many occasions I stated that politicians do not to my learned colleague, Senator O´ Murchu´, to act, they react. I hope the Minister accepts the deal with the vexillology register and matters of Bill. If he does not, I hope he reacts favourably this kind. by ensuring the provisions in the Bill are provided by the State body or otherwise. I thank all those Mr. Norris: Maith an fear. who helped in this. We can discuss crests and emblems. However, on this occasion we should Acting Chairman: I call on Senator Norris. not forget the diaspora, those who left this coun- try and show great interest in our past. As a State Mr. Norris: Senator O´ Murchu´ is due to speak we now show interest in our past. next.

Mr. K. Phelan: I welcome the Minister for Arts, Acting Chairman: I understand the Senators Sports and Tourism, Deputy O’Donoghue to the are sharing time. House. I am happy to have an opportunity to speak on the proposed Genealogy and Heraldry Mr. Norris: Whatever about heraldry, it is Bill 2006. refreshing to discover that the art of prophesy has I listened carefully to the case put forward for not vanished from the earth because Senator the Bill and to the Minister’s reply. The debate Kieran Phelan who, I am glad to say, is a rep- thus far has demonstrated the high esteem in resentative of one of the distinguished septs of which heraldry is held in this House and in my own part of the country, Ossory, was able to 1283 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1284

[Mr. Norris.] MacGiolla Pha´draig. He is certainly the descend- imagine or prophesy in his typed-up script what ent of the last one that was duly elected as chief Senator Ryan said. The Minister said on page of that clan. It was done by election. There was a three of his script or whatever it was — I pointed kind of central family stem and from within that, it out at the time — that nothing he had heard the leader of the family was, more or less, elected. today had convinced him. He had not heard it They were pretty grim in the way they did it. when the speech was typed up so it is a complete There are records in my mother’s family of and utter nonsense. people putting out their own brother’s eyes We are used to this in this House. We get it on because one could not be an Irish chieftain if one matters relating to Standing Order 29 all the time. was blind. They made bloody sure they were One puts down that one wishes to raise a motion blind so they could not be elected. under Standing Order 29 and the Cathaoirleach If one looks at the chiefs that are recognised, po-facedly says that he does not believe anything many of them belonged to the Church of Ireland. is contemplated by this Standing Order, no I find this fascinating. The MacGiolla Pha´draig matter what it is. It does not matter whether it obviously belonged to the Church of Ireland, was an armed insurrection in Listowel or a vol- while the O’Hara, the O’Grady in Killballyowen cano in Du´ n Laoghaire, it is not contemplated and the MacGillycuddy of the Reeks from the under Standing Order 29. This is all typed up and Minister’s constituency were also members. written out before we get to the point. Interestingly, the two most wonderful and roman- The Minister is a thoroughly decent man and I tic titles, and, essentially, it is all about romance, have many reasons to be grateful to him and not are the O’Conor Don and the MacDermott, only for his enthusiastic support of cultural life in Prince of Coolavin. Since it is now said that one Ireland, in particular my own little baby, the can make oneself an Irish chief, I think I might James Joyce Centre in Dublin. The late Terry do so. Senator Ross made himself an auctioneer O’Sullivan, who wrote the Dubliner’s Diary, after on “The Late Late Show”. I propose to award a huge feast of drink went back and snored in the myself a title, which I hope will be recognised and offices of The Irish Press. Somebody asked him if observed by my colleagues in Seanad E´ ireann. he was going to write up the column after filling There is, however, a certain seriousness about his face with all their food and drink and he said: the matter, even though it is full of fantasy, fun, “Let us astonish them by our ingratitude.” I pro- vexillology and what not. There is a legal problem pose to astonish the Minister with my ingratitude and say that was an absolutely pathetic speech. I about the granting of coats of arms. If, as a do not believe he concocted it himself. This was republic, we decided to abolish the whole thing, obviously a set up. this would have been one situation, but we did There is clearly a case for the proper authoris- not. We then purported to grant arms to people ation of heraldry. Again, I can perhaps under- such as President Kennedy, a former President of stand the feeling of the Department because this the US, for the younger members of the House was also concocted by the people in the Genea- who do not recall that period of history. President logical Society of Ireland, and more power to Robinson and the current President McAleese them. We all get the society’s gazette, called The have also been granted coats of arms. Genie Gazette, which is sometimes very If one looks inside the Oak Room in the Man- interesting. It is important we regulate the area sion House in Dublin, one can see all kinds of for a number of reasons, one of which is the scan- coats of arms, some of which are the real coats of dal that surrounded the MacCarthy Mo´ r, which arms of the ancient Irish or Norman families. was a dreadful affair. It was laughable in one Some of them are completely concocted. It is very sense that this fellow was floating around Tangier interesting to see them. It may well be that many with his boyfriend behind him and a poodle on a of these, especially the grants made to dis- pink cushion claiming to be the MacCarthy Mo´ r. tinguished visiting persons, are challengeable Apparently, the nincompoops over here actually internationally. We can call them what we like. recognised him. How farcical can one get? One The biggest pedants on this matter are the Brit- has to establish something that gets away from ish. We inherited the system from them in 1943 this sort of thing. — the Ulster King of Arms and so on. Nobody was appointed for quite a long time, which Mr. O’Donoghue: I can tell the Senator that he creates a gap. One is in a situation where one was not the Kerry MacCarthy Mo´ r. must abolish and then recreate. This Bill would be a very good point. Mr. Norris: History does not reveal which part I thought the Minister was very dismissive of the globe he originated from, but he ended up about the need for these kinds of records. I do in Tangier. not think it is appropriate just to have it as a kind In his speech, the Minister is certainly right of appendage in the National Library that can be about the question of the Gaelic chieftains. This dismissed. I am not denigrating the National is a very interesting area because it is so full of Library in this. Serious historical and scholarly contradiction and paradox. I have a cousin of work can be done on coats of arms which reveals some kind who is, or styles himself, the interesting things. 1285 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1286

Even though my surname is English, my vexillogical means and the majority cannot even mother was a descendant of a very old Gaelic pronounce it. I am going to be blazingly honest Irish family. I was unearthed because of a more and state that if the word “vexillogical” had been distinguished uncle, who is deceased, by people presented to me on an otherwise blank sheet of who asked if there were any relatives and asked paper, I would have been hard put to guess at its to go to the Fitzpatrick Clan rally. I love and meaning. However, I worked out what it means adore any kind of hokum like that. I attended the from the context in which it is used. As a member rally and poor old Denys in Key West in Florida, of the universal and infallible church which he who was aged 101 at that stage, sent over a mess- claims as his own, I have no doubt that Senator age as the MacGiolla Pha´draig. Ryan is, as he informed the House,again correct There were a couple of very interesting lec- with regard to his definition of “vexillogical”. tures, one of which was about the crest which fea- However, that excludes the matter of courtesy. tures a green dragon and a lion rampant. The lec- One would have thought that the latter would turer on this subject indicated that at various have been appropriate in a Bill that deals with times, the positions and dimensions of these two heraldry. As a courtesy to plain, honest, decent, animals changed. One could tell the temperature ordinary citizens not yet ennobled by the State, of Irish political life as far as the Gaelic nation it might have been useful to provide us with a was concerned by the relative size and aggressive- definition of the term. ness of the two animals, which is very interesting. I wish Senator Ryan well with the Bill. Outside The items featured in the coats of arms are often of the fun we are having, there is something to be indicators of the family business and connections. said for regularising the position. Even if one I suppose trade would have been more or less does not believe in it or is not interested in the excluded. I think we in Ireland were much less romance — I described it as hokum — or the his- coy about accepting trade. tory and the important historical elements There is a great deal of interest in this and for involved, one must consider the tourism aspect. this reason and no other, it would be very The Yanks are obsessed with their ancestry and important to consider something such as Senator we can fleece them for the privilege of dis- Ryan’s Bill. Having reprimanded the Minister in covering it, if we have at our disposal the correct a jocose way, I would like to say that was the machinery. I am all in favour of the latter. It is printed script. Senator Ryan would, however, be important that we do not make prats of ourselves well advised to accept the generous offer the by handing out coats of arms that could, in the Minister made when he spoke off the cuff and absence of a proper legislative basis, be chal- stated that he would, if the Bill were withdrawn, lenged by our cousins across the water. refer the matter back to the people in the National Library who are genuinely interested in I exaggerated the amount of time the Minister it to see what legislative proposals might come spent discussing the Bill. I estimate that less than about as a result. 25% of his contribution was devoted to the legis- Another matter to which I wish to refer is that lation, which he dismissed. The Minster spent his of recognition of excellence. Most societies like time, as usual, engaging in dreary self-congratu- to recognise excellence and there is nothing very lation regarding what has been done for the much on offer in Ireland in that regard. Perhaps National Library — I accept his bona fides in this we should consider reviving the Knights of St. regard — and other cultural institutions. He also Patrick, among whose number were a number of highlighted his interest in the Abbey Theatre. We the old Irish families, including mine. I was will spend another day debating that matter pleased, when attending a recent concert at St. because I have tabled a motion in respect of the Patrick’s Hall, to see the flag of my family on dis- Abbey. We should move the theatre not to the play. Reviving the Knights of St. Patrick would be docklands but to O’Connell Street, where it a worthwhile. One could not refer to a member of belongs. It is appalling that a small cabal of busi- the Most Illustrious Order of St. Patrick as “Sir”. ness people and property speculators can sit on In any event, courtesy titles are not supposed to the Carlton site and blow a raspberry at the be used — I do not believe Mr. O’Reilly is aware Government and the people. of this fact — in a republic. Everybody knows that if, sadly, the Abbey I am happy to await the revival of the Gaelic Theatre cannot remain on its historic site at monarchy, if the O’Conor Don can be located. As Abbey Street, where it should be located, it most far as I am aware, such an individual still exists. I certainly not act as an anchor in a commercial am comfortable enough with the Republic but development and as a little piece of the jigsaw some recognition of merit would be a useful and that is the Financial Services Centre. The Abbey decent development, and the taking of action in should be for the people of Ireland and it should this regard should be considered. be located on the main thoroughfare of the capi- I wish to spar with Senator Ryan regarding the tal city. As a national cultural institution, the term “vexillogical”. Information regarding this theatre should be used to lift the northern axis of could easily have been included in the explana- our principal thoroughfare out of the oblivion tory memorandum to the Bill. The latter should and mire of chip shops and knicker sale rooms explain things. Most people do not know what into which it has sunk. 1287 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1288

[Mr. Norris.] sources, which are quite comprehensive. Senator Since the Minister opened the debate on this Feighan referred to such sources. I would have matter, I am glad to state that I have a motion in expected that this debate would have resulted in respect of it on the Order Paper. I will be seeking a much greater balance. In saying this, I do not that he come before the House to explain why intend to take away from the issue of chieftain- the Abbey Theatre should not be located in ship, heraldry or whatever. I had a friend who O’Connell Street. While we are at it, perhaps we died some years ago and the wedding present he could arrange some small but significant tribute generally gave was a combined coat of arms for to Daniel O’Connell. I heard a radio interview the two families which always sparked debate the other day in which the Minister, or one of his about how authentic were the coats of arms. We colleagues in Government, referred to digging up felt there was a poetic licence attached to these the Manchester Martyrs. Why is it only the viol- gifts and that the mottos and coats of arms were ent tradition of Ireland that is celebrated? intended in some way to boost the morale of the recipients. One wonders if an element of that atti- Dr. Mansergh: It is not just that tradition which tude does not attach to this debate. The credi- is celebrated. bility of continuity has been undermined by some serious recent major cases. Mr. Norris: Why not celebrate Daniel The initial exchange between Senators Ryan O’Connell, the great pacifist, the Liberator, the and Norris in this debate was to an extent about man who, for the sake of not shedding blood, can- semantics. I do not mean that in a derogatory celled the last of his monster meetings? sense but it accentuates my point that most people outside this House will not watch this Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : Is mian liom fa´ilte a chuir debate on “Oireachtas Report” tonight, even if it roimh an Aire Sta´it, an Teachta Fahey, agus an is broadcast on the programme, which in a way is Aire, an Teachta O’Donoghue, a bhı´ anseo sad. There is an element of elitism in this debate roimhe. De´arfainn go bhfuilimid go le´ir ar aon which should not be the case. When we get down aigne go bhfuil se´ suimiu´ il, oiriu´ nach agus a´isiu´ il to the semantics we may be promoting that con- go bhfuil dı´ospo´ ireacht mar seo ar siu´ l sa Seanad. cept about a part of our heritage. Ta´ an t-a´dh linn, dar ndo´ igh, go bhfuil scola´irı´ I watched Senator Ryan’s body language while den scoth ag glacadh pa´irtsadı´ospo´ ireacht seo the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy agus go bhfuil faisne´is a´ chuir ar fa´il acu. Nı´ le O’Donoghue, spoke and hope that I interpreted haon duine amha´in oidhreacht na hE´ ireann. Ta´i- him correctly. He sat up very straight when the mid i gco´ naı´ ag foghlaim. Ta´ su´ il agam go bhfuil Minister rightly praised him. Senator Ryan forbairt ag teacht orainn gach bliain agus go lean- deserves the credit not just of this House but of faidh se´ sin ar aghaidh i ngach ce´ad amach anseo. the country for the amount of effort he has put Aontaı´m leis an Aire, an Teachta O’Donoghue, into this Bill. It is not a Mickey Mouse Bill. It is nuair a thugann se´ cu´ lra na ceiste seo du´ inn. Nil well-researched and underpinned by a great aon amhras faoi na´ go bhfuil re´ o´ rga nua o´ thaobh degree of sincerity and I compliment the Senator cultu´ r agus ealaı´on i bhfeidhm sa tı´r seo i la´thair on that. The Minister took the same view and did na huaire. Nı´ ga´ ach fe´achaint ar an gnı´omhaı´ocht not want to see a Bill of this importance and ata´ ag tarlu´ sa tı´r, go mo´ rmho´ r i measc an phobail potential end in a vote. That would only add to ach chomh maith i bpa´irtne´ireacht leis an Sta´it. the lack of public interest in this subject. Ta´ se´ sin mar gur cho´ ir go mbeadh se´. Ceapaim I would prefer to look upon this debate as go raibh an tAire ag iarraidh e´ sinale´iriu´ mar another stepping stone towards the acceptance of chu´ lraarandı´ospo´ ireacht. our heritage and to see the Bill sent to the I wish first to declare an interest. I am chair- National Library. That would not be the end of man of the Irish Family History Foundation and it. As Senator Ryan said even if the Bill is voted my former vice-chairman was the late Sir Robert down today it will almost certainly return because Kidd, who was also the former chairman of the there will be always people outside here who will Northern Ireland Civil Service. My secretary was be interested in the subject. Paddy “Bogside” Doherty from Derry. The The other genealogical sources have been neg- reason I mention these individuals is to underline lected. There are 40 million people of Irish the diversity of interest in the subject under dis- extraction in North America, most of whom have, cussion in the context of this Bill. I do not doubt or are developing, an interest in their roots, partly that the results which come from such a conflu- because of the position Ireland holds in the world ence of aspirations, sentiment and philosophy today, not just an economic one, although that must, of themselves, be rich. We should bear that is important, but in the areas of culture, sport, in mind in the debate on the Bill lest in some way literature and so on. People of the diaspora are we may inject a sense of elitism where it should proud of their roots and want to trace them. That not exist. area is more relevant than the heraldic element In some ways, such a sense was created by the of the Bill. fact that almost all the emphasis in the debate so Having declared an interest in this matter I feel far has been on heraldry. The Bill presented by entitled to expand on the Irish Family History Senator Ryan also deals with other genealogical Foundation. There are 33 centres in Ireland, 1289 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1290

North and South. Both traditions are fully inte- grants to it. The Ministers and Secretaries grated into the project. All the Catholic Church (Amendment) Act 1939 had, as the principal Act, records have been made available to the found- the Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924, which was ation’s centres, only in this context. Most of the enacted by Da´il E´ ireann to facilitate the allo- Church of Ireland records have been also made cation of various statutory bodies established by available and a large section of the civil records either the UK Parliament, or the earlier Irish Par- have been input on a computer. Almost 80% of liament, to the new Departments established by the records have been input and computerised Da´il E´ ireann. One can well ask whether this was and we have almost concluded this work. In a the appropriate legislation to use in 1943. The matter of months all these records will be access- issue arises as to whether the bodies established ible on the Internet. A new pay per view system by royal charter or letters patent which, for the is being devised between North and South and purposes of the Ministers and Secretaries Act we are signing the agreement whereby all those 1924, were deemed to be statutory bodies, records will be available for everybody in the covered the office of Ulster King of Arms. There world to access. is a strong argument to the effect that it did not. There will not be just a centralised computer The functions of the office of Ulster King of database. The system will bring one back to the Arms were conferred by letters patent to an indi- local centre, which will encourage cultural tour- vidual, usually for life, and not to an institution. ism. Senator Ryan may not have been conscious Nowhere in the 1924 or 1926 Act is the position of the extent of that area of genealogical research of the royal prerogative in respect of personal let- and service. We should be careful not to ascribe ters patent mentioned for the purposes of includ- a quaint historical concept to this by bringing the ing same in the legislative or constitutional frame- State in to legislate for it because that is a mine- work of the Irish Free State. It is clear, therefore, field. The bodies involved in this area should be that the functions and powers of the office of open and accountable, and through their scholar- Ulster King of Arms were not capable of being ship and journals should try to bring more people transferred under the 1924 Act and, therefore, into consideration. I salute Senator Ryan’s work likewise under the Ministers and Secretaries and appeal to the Minister not to let this Bill drift (Amendment) Act 1939. in a vote but to keep it alive because it has the It has been argued extensively that the concept basis for much greater development. of the royal prerogative did not survive the enact- ment of the 1922 Constitution and its various Ms Tuffy: I thank the Irish Genealogical amendments and, therefore, because it did not Society for providing information to the Labour exist it was not possible for it to be transferred or Party to help us draft this Bill. My contribution inherited by the 1937 Constitution. There are relies on much of that information. The legislative many more arguments in this regard. The basis of this issue was last debated here in 1996- Government of the Irish Free State could have 97. The problem that confronted Members then given itself the power to grant arms through the was whether the Genealogical Office was already enactment of legislation but that did not happen. established in law and needed to be abolished in The legislative instruments employed in 1943 its old form before being included in the new to give effect to the transfer of the records and legislation or whether the new legislation had to treasures of the office of Ulster King of Arms and establish the office in law. the subsequent decision to commence the deliv- During the debate a suggestion was made that ery of heraldic services by the State through the a formula be found to get over these sometimes issuance of letters patent claiming various rights, absurd arguments and notions that the Office of etc., were inappropriately applied by the Govern- the Chief Herald of Ireland is “the ment of the day. If that was the case, then legis- 5 o’clock oldest office of State” and that the lation should have been enacted. “Chief Herald of Ireland held his Some other matters are also covered by the prerogative powers personally like his prede- Bill. We should get our house in order in terms cessors the Ulster Kings of Arms since 1552”, of the legislation. Much work is ongoing in regard without any basis in fact. The wording adopted to a British-Irish protocol on armorial bearings by the then Minister, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, in respect of the mutual recognition of heraldic and his officials was that “for the avoidance of jurisdiction and the special position of Northern doubt, the Genealogical Office is a branch of the Ireland. If we get this legislation in place we can National Library”. This was to incorporate the work on such issues. status quo in section 13 (1). In addition, the Bill deals extensively with The Genealogical Society of Ireland strongly related issues such as genealogy and vexillology holds the view that it was understood when the — I hope I have pronounced that correctly — legislation was adopted that it would be necessary which, as Senator Ryan indicated, is a constituent to revisit the issue. The implementation of section discipline of heraldry given to the study of flags 13 in May 2005 was not the way to proceed. and emblems. This Bill is breaking new ground There are problems about the legislative basis by incorporating these important aspects of our for the office before the transfer of various func- heritage in legislation, thereby providing for their tions to the Irish Republic and the payment of protection and structured development. 1291 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1292

[Ms Tuffy.] with the proposal for a national vexillological One of the most important genealogical register. matters dealt with in the Bill is the proposal for a special heritage category for the first census of Mr. Ryan: And to my own as well. population of the Irish Free State. I looked up some census information this year. We all get to Dr. Mansergh: The modern democratic aspect the stage where we want to find out about our of heraldry relates to the emblems of civic organ- identity and from where we come, etc. During the isations, clubs, societies etc. That has its import- summer I did some research on the occurrence of ance. Senator Ryan gave an interesting history the name “Tuffy” in counties Sligo, Mayo, etc. I going back to the middle ages. He missed out the realised that much documentation is unavailable, great scandal of the early 20th century, which was although a great deal of information is available the involvement of the Ulster King of Arms, on the Internet. Various bodies do good work in Arthur Vicars, in the disappearance of the Irish terms of the provision of this information for crown jewels. Subsequently, he was killed in 1922 people who wish to research their Irish heritage. but he was disgraced long before that. My great The 1926 census returns are an invaluable uncle who died in 1906 had a fascination with her- source for genealogy and social history covering aldry and was a friend of Sir Arthur Vicars. Sev- the most turbulent period in modern Irish history. eral of his books on heraldry are in my house in The new Irish Free State held its first census in County Tipperary 1926 at the height of economic depression and Although I have a coat of arms and a motto, I emigration. This is a most important period of do not actively use either of them. My motto is our history. The 1926 census was closed to public “Toujours preˆt”. My wife snorts occasionally at it. view for 100 years by the Statistics Act 1993, in One can translates it as, “Always flexible”. line with all other census returns taken since 1926. An amendment to the legislation reduced Mr. O’Toole: Senator Mansergh is in the right the period of closure to 70 years. The Bill aims to party. keep the 100 year rule for census returns gener- ally, but to make an exception for the 1926 cen- Dr. Mansergh: Perhaps it might fit. The State sus. The proposal is to afford the 1926 census a should not get too involved in formalising this special heritage category and reduce its closure area. The current arms-length relationship period to 80 years for research purposes to bridge through the National Library is probably this gap in our records covering this most appropriate. important period in our nation’s history, from I fully endorse what Senator O´ Murchu´ said 1911 to 1926. about family research. I do not want to belittle The United States of America has its 1930 cen- it in any way but for many older people tracing sus returns available for research on-line and, ancestors is an absorbing hobby. I have an similarly, the Canadian province of Newfound- Australian cousin who has about 4,000 sheets of land, which is possibly the most Irish place out- paper of various sizes. I think she can, more or side Ireland, has its 1949 census returns open to less, claim descent back to the Pharaohs. It keeps research. It is most important that this measure her busy and it has huge tourism potential. It is would be taken on board by the Government. I harmless. I believe that if one goes back more commend the Bill to the House. than two or three generations one’s links with one’s ancestors are probably extremely tenuous An Cathaoirleach: Members should bear in and vice versa. I am convinced that probably mind that only 13 minutes remain and five or six Brian Boru and Charlemagne had millions of Senators are offering. Senator Ryan will have to descendants and that may include all of us. I am be called upon to reply at 5.20 p.m. not sure how much we can claim reflected glory therefrom. Dr. Mansergh: I wish to share my time with The Minister has made Senator Ryan a very Senators Jim Walsh and Lydon. I will speak for fair offer, which I hope he will take up, as it the five minutes and they will share the other five proposals contained in the Bill would be minutes. thoroughly vetted by the National Library to see what more needs to be done. An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed. Mr. J. Walsh: I endorse what the Minister has Dr. Mansergh: I welcome this debate. We have said. The Government’s commitment to the arts relatively few debates on cultural and sporting is well illustrated by the \700 million allocation issues in this House. Therefore, the Minister was for 2007. In that regard it would be remiss of me quite in order to outline the outstanding achieve- not to compliment and thank the Minister for his ments in all three areas of his portfolio. support for the Wexford Opera Festival and, in We should be grateful to Senator Ryan for particular, the new theatre which will be built in bringing forward this Bill for discussion. Like Wexford at a cost in excess of \26 million, which other speakers, I pay tribute to the amount of will continue the prime position Wexford holds work he put into it. He added to my vocabulary in the opera calendar worldwide. I endorse also 1293 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1294 what he said about the National Museum, partic- Mr. O’Toole: I suggest Senator Quinn and I ularly in regard to Collins Barracks. It is a fine have six minutes and that the additional two museum as those who visit it will testify. minutes be given to Senator Mooney. As other Senators have done, I compliment Senator Ryan on tabling the Bill and highlighting Mr. Mooney: I thank the Senator. what is an important topic. I hope he will accept the Minister’s invitation to withdraw the Bill in An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed. order that aspects of it can be examined which would enhance what is already on the Statute Mr. O’Toole: Tre´aslaı´mgomo´ r leis an Seana- Book. do´ ir O´ Riain as ucht an Bille seo a thabhairt chu- As other speakers have said genealogy is gainn. Ta´ se´ thar a bheith ta´bhachtach go mbeadh becoming quite an interest for family histories ple´ agus dı´ospo´ ireacht ar an me´id ata´ ann. Agus and family trees and is important from a tourism me´ ag fe´achaint air, caithfidh me´ ara´ go bhfuil se´ point of view. In New Ross we developed with a an-tarraingteach. Ta´ se´ ta´bhachtach go mbeadh university in Philadelphia the history of those se´ ordaithe go rialta o´ thaobh dhearcadh an Sta´it who emigrated from Ireland from the mid-19th de. Sa mhe´id sin, ta´imse an-sa´sta vo´ ta´il chun taca- century onwards from the manuscripts of the var- ı´ocht a thabhairt do´. ious shipping lines which left Ireland and Ta´ cu´ pla rud ann, a´fach, a chuireann isteach Liverpool. orm beaga´inı´n, ar an gce´ad dul sı´os o´ thaobh na I support the thrust and the sentiments of much gclann Gaelacha de. I gco´ naı´,bae´ an traidisiu´ na of what is contained in the Bill. I hope the bhı´ ag na clanna, bı´odh e´ na Rianaigh no´ muintir important aspects which threaten what is already Uı´ Thuathail, no´ pe´ dream, a gcu´ rsaı´ fe´in a in existence will be undertaken. dhe´anamh iad fe´in. Nı´ raibh muintir Uı´ Thuathail in iarthar na tı´re no´ i gCill Mhanta´in ariamh ag ´ Mr. Lydon: I too support the thrust of the Bill. feitheamh ar Rı´ na Breataine, Rı´ na hEireann, When I first read it I thought it was a very good Rialtas na tı´re seo, na´ aon duine eile chun aon Bill and written by somebody who has an interest so´ rt tacaı´ochta a thabhairt do´ ibh agus iad ag in this area as I have. I can see from where the teacht chun cinn ar pe´ bratach no´ motto a bhı´odh Minister is coming when he speaks about the acu no´ aon rud eile. Dheineadar a gcuid gno´ iad fe´in, agus ba mhaith an rud e´ go nde´anfaidh siad committee on genealogy and heraldry as pro- an me´id sin as seo amach chomh maith. B’fhe´idir vided in section 13 of the 1977 Act, that there is go gcuirfeadh duine i gcoinne an Sta´t a bheith ag a Chief Herald and that it is legal. The only cur ladair isteach ar an ngno´ sin, a bhı´ i gco´ naı´ i matter on which I take issue with him is the desig- la´mha na gclann go dtı´ seo. nation of Gaelic chieftainships and grants of Nı´ fheadar an bhfuil aon gha´ du´ inne reachtaı´- arms. It would be a pity if we lost forever the ocht a chur chun cinn chun tacaı´ocht a thabhairt whole concept of Gaelic chieftainship because don Chief Herald of Ulster, no´ pe´ rud e´. Nach there are people like O’Conor Don, O’Neill, bhfe´adfaimis tosnu´ as an nua? Is tı´r nua daonla- O’Donnell, O’Brien of Thomond, McDonnell of thach muid, agus nı´ rı´ocht sinn a thuilleadh. Ba the Glens, McGillycuddy of the Reeks and so on, mhaith liom dı´riu´ air sin chomh maith. Nı´ chuire- who can genuinely trace their ancestry back to ann se´ sin isteach ro´ -mho´ r ar an mBille, ach ba when before the Normans came to Ireland. I do mhaith liom leasu´ a chur ann le go bhfe´adfaimis not believe in titles but there would be some way e´ sin a dhe´anamh. of recognising these people and I believe it could Tre´aslaı´mgomo´ r leis an Seanado´ ir as ucht e´ be included in the grants of arms. seo a thabhairt chun cinn, agus go n-e´irı´ leis. I welcome the thrust of the Bill. Whoever put it together had a genuine interest. I would hate Mr. Quinn: I thank Senator O’Toole for shar- to see it being voted down because we can get ing time. I welcome the Bill and commend my what we want by using the committee. colleague, Senator Ryan, on introducing it. I hope it will get a speedy passage into law. I am aware An Cathaoirleach: I call Senator O’Toole who that some people think that heraldry and gen- has six minutes. ealogy is a colonial heritage that we should not value in a Republic. I could not disagree more. I Mr. O’Toole: I wish to share time with believe it is the sort of thing we should value if Senator Quinn. we are to maintain the nation’s heritage. Another issue that has been raised is that there Mr. Ryan: May I reduce my time to seven is a commercial aspect to it. There is little doubt minutes? that those who emigrated many years ago wish to be able to access the information that is available. Mr. Mooney: On a point of order, I have been I learned only today that some statute is neces- anxious to speak on the Bill and, unfortunately, sary if legal doubts are to be removed concerning time is running out. If I can be accommodated I some of the arms that were granted to President would like to make a brief contribution. Given Robinson, President McAleese and also to Pres- that an arrangement is being made—— ident Kennedy and President Clinton. We need a 1295 Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Second Stage 1296

[Mr. Quinn.] ment for establishing a national scheme for recog- proper department of heraldry and genealogy nition of people, which would in no way compro- and a vexillological register. mise our republican credentials. Dr. Pat Donlon, who is in charge of the I was very anxious to make a modest and lim- National Library, wrote in 1996 that her long ited contribution to the Bill. As I said at the out- term plans included a dedicated, open access, set, I empathise greatly with much of its contents. genealogical reference centre to be housed in the As Senator Jim Walsh said, I acknowledge what refurbished extension to the National Library the Minister has said in the firm argument he into the former National College of Art and made against allowing the Bill to proceed. It is Design premises. I hope the Minister will look encouraging that he said he would reflect on the again at those plans. There is a benefit in this for points and arguments made here. our heritage and a benefit for our traditions as well as a commercial benefit. I congratulate Dr. Henry: I am delighted to support this Senator Ryan on introducing the Bill. I hope the imaginative and intelligent Bill. It is wonderful Minister will find a way to ensure it comes to that it is getting such support from across the fruition in whatever manner is the most suitable. House.

Mr. Mooney: I am grateful to Senator Ryan for Mr. Ryan: I apologise to my colleagues if I do accommodating me. I line with the contributions not mention everybody’s contribution. It is an from both sides I support the spirit of the Bill but inevitable consequence of the brevity of my reply. I take cognisance of what the Minister has said. I do not mean this as a nasty point. Once we got I had the honour and privilege of being the away from the set scripts we had a very good Opposition spokesperson when the Cultural Insti- debate arising from which is something that tutions Bill was taken in the House and I became people may not have known, which is how very familiar with the area of vexillology, gen- important the issues are. Many people here have ealogy and heralds. The Genealogical Society of views. Whether I or other Senators agree is sec- Ireland has been at the forefront in this regard. I ondary. It is clear this is an issue with ramifi- was reminded of Margaret Thatcher’s famous cations that matter to many people. I have taken “out, out, out” speech when the New Ireland the debate in that spirit. I have many smart Forum issued its report. To the three areas that remarks about the Minister, which I will leave Senator Ryan indicated in his Bill, the Minister out. I will have plenty of opportunities again. has said unequivocally and unambiguously “no, There is nothing inconsistent with a republic hav- no, no.” However, I share his views and those of ing a chief herald. That proudest of new the Genealogical Society of Ireland about some republics, the Republic of South Africa is the form of recognition for eminent people in this example I would cite. There is no single model of country. I had this argument at the time of the a republic. A republic is a democratic state that previous debate. Former Senator, Joe Lee, and I does not have someone who remains as head of mounted a challenge with the then Minister, state for life. After that, provided it is democratic, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, who had fixed his there is a range of republics. mind in much the same way as has the current While it is not like a politician to say this, I Minister about the specific proposal on honours have received enormous compliments for my dili- and titles. gence in drafting the Bill. I did not draft the Bill, Government generally seems to have some sort other people drafted it. If I deserve a compliment of blind spot whenever one discusses these it is for introducing it and having the neck to go matters, partly because we are in a republic and through with something as complicated and risk should not do this. It is regarded as an anachron- the possibility of making a fool of myself in the ism and going back to the old times. However, I process. I deserve no compliment for the detail believe we could reach an accommodation in this of the Bill. It was prepared by people who know republic of ours. It happens in France, which is considerably more than I do. However, this is probably the best example of a functioning how we should do our business. We cannot, as republic with a monarchical structure. I see no Members of the Oireachtas, be experts in every reason someone could not devise something field. When other people impress us with an idea similar to the order of St. Patrick. We have very and their expertise, we should use it and admit it. worthwhile local and national institutions that Having said that, a number of matters arose. annually recognise the contribution that ordinary Senator O´ Murchu´ spoke about the impending people make in the course of their daily lives. I extraordinary event where much of our family attended a function recently in my county and history will be accessible on the Internet in a very understand it takes place in several other coun- organised fashion. When investigating the family ties. I refer to the ESB-Rehab Person of the Year history of ordinary people, like ourselves, as dis- award and there are many others. The Leitrim tinct from the distinguished families, I am always Guardian magazine, which uniquely is the only struck by the sudden terrifying gap in the middle magazine in my county published on an annual of the 19th century. In the investigation of family basis, has a person of the year award. While all history, there is a sudden staring over the brink of these awards are good and fine, there is an argu- the catastrophe in the middle of the 19th century. 1297 European Communities Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Committee Stage 1298

When we sought the history of my grandfather cal divide. It would be a pity to force it to a vote. and grandmother in County Tipperary, I found it I do not propose to do this because I do not want was easy to go back to the late 19th century. It to embarrass Members who are sympathetic to was a bit more of a struggle in the early 19th cen- my intention. It would be a pity to do so. I there- tury, but beyond that there is suddenly a gap, fore ask the permission of the House to withdraw which remains deep in our self-conscious. the Bill. I accept the Minister’s offer to seek the I am a chemical engineer, the only engineer in views of the board of the National Library of the Oireachtas and the missing engineer on Ireland on the issues raised and I hope this will be Senator Ross’s list, as many Senators will know. done reasonably expeditiously. I ask Government Every chemical engineer in that building over Members to pursue the Minister on the question there had to be able to say “vexillological” before of whether there is a genuine and reliable legal being allowed in. If Senators believe that they will basis for the current issue of arms and whether believe anything. However, we must get one up there is a need for clarification in this regard. on Trinity if we get a chance. I thank Members for their contributions to this I was somewhat disappointed in the Minister’s entertaining and enjoyable debate, which was response. There is no point in responding to conducted in good spirit and with little rancour. I Private Members’ legislation with arguments also thank the Government for allowing it to take about detail. The Minister did not address the place in Government time. This is unusual and I central issue of whether a sound legal base exists welcome it unequivocally. for the issue of arms in the State. I would like Bill, by leave, withdrawn. to know what the Attorney General advised the Government in 2002 in this regard. If advice exists, it is a pity we are not discussing it. I do not European Communities Bill 2006: Committee know why the National Library of Ireland has not Stage. pursued it. I know the current chief herald does Section 1 agreed to. not believe it. However, while he may be a fine chief herald, he is not an authority on law and SECTION 2. the Constitution. Question proposed: “That section 2 stand part Some Senators spoke about our diaspora, of the Bill.” which is a legitimate part of it. We are an extra- Mr. Quinn: I oppose section 2, which is set out ordinarily diverse people who are spread as follows: throughout the world. We have connections in many countries and the Internet will greatly Section 3 of the Act of 1972 is amended by— expand the access that people will have and will want to have to what exists of records here. This (a) the substitution of the following sub- is why one of the Bill’s provisions to prevent the section for subsection (3): improper or illegal export of genealogical records “(3) Regulations under this section is extremely important. Within a generation such may— matters could go from being the stuff of parish records to the sort of items that could sell for (a) make provision for offences under large amounts of money at international auctions. the regulations to be prosecuted on Some great works of art barely sold 100 years ago indictment where the Minister of the and are now worth up to \50 million. We need to Government making the regulations ensure we recognise our heritage while we still considers it necessary for the purpose of have it in our hands and before it drifts away giving full effect to a provision of the from us and is scattered around. It is a tragedy treaties governing the European Com- that the personal papers of some of our great wri- munities or an act adopted by an insti- ters are now scattered through half a dozen tution of those Communities, and different universities. I think of the papers of (b) make such provision as that Mini- James Joyce, in particular, that are scattered in a ster of the Government considers neces- variety of places. It is a tragedy because when it sary for the purpose of ensuring that could have been done it was not done and now penalties in respect of an offence pros- that we could perhaps do it we cannot afford to ecuted in that manner are effective and do it. proportionate, and have a deterrent I still cherish that one of the more distinguished effect, having regard to the acts or omis- former members of this House was the sions of which the offence consists, pro- McGillicuddy of the Reeks. Senator Norris vided that the maximum fine (if any) assured me he insisted on the emphasis being on shall not be greater than \500,000 and the first syllable rather than on the second syl- the maximum term of imprisonment (if lable, which is peculiar. However, the man knows any) shall not be greater than 3 years.”, more about pronunciation than anybody else and here does. There is consensus on pursuing the issue. It is (b) the insertion of the following not an issue on which there is a major party politi- subsection: 1299 European Communities Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Committee Stage 1300

[Mr. Quinn.] then implements. This is a clear division of “(5) In this section— powers. In practice, because the Government dominates the Legislature, it alone has the power ‘maximum fine’ means the maximum fine to make laws as it wishes. Bypassing the Legis- to which a person shall be liable on convic- lature is a very different matter and should be tion on indictment of an offence; resisted every time it is proposed. On Second ‘maximum term of imprisonment’ means Stage, I spoke at some length as to why this the maximum term of imprisonment to important Bill is fundamentally bad legislation. which a person shall be liable on convic- As we consider this section, it might be worth- tion on indictment of an offence.”. while to revisit some of what I said on Second Stage. I hope Members have thought further I strenuously opposed this Bill in its entirety on about the important issues at stake. Second Stage. My opposition grows stronger What is not at stake is the value of our EU every day but I chose not to table any Committee membership or that Ireland has benefited hugely Stage amendments because this is a Bill that from it. I am well aware of the negotiating prin- cannot be improved by amendment. The only ciple of when in doubt, bang the table. The Mini- way to improve it is to throw it out altogether and ster’s equivalent is when his argument is weak, begin considering anew the issues it raises. I did play the EU trumpet. There is no difference not receive an adequate response when I made between me and the Minister in our fundamental this proposal last week. enthusiasm for the EU or in the determination In his speech last week, the Minister of State, that Ireland should live up fully to its responsibil- Deputy Treacy, acknowledged that the driving ities and obligations of membership. I part com- force behind the Bill are two recent Supreme pany with the Minister on the respective roles Court judgments which called into question the that should be played by the EU, national legality of the way in which some European legis- governments and legislatures. lation was transposed into Irish law over the It is commonly accepted that one of the EU’s years. The Supreme Court effectively decided fundamental problems is its perceived distance that for all these years, the Executive exceeded from its citizens. This is not just an image prob- its powers under the Constitution. It usurped the lem with practical consequences. With more of powers of both Houses of the Oireachtas and our lives dominated by matters at EU level, it is consistently abrogated to itself powers that right- important that people feel personally involved fully belong to those Houses. with the institutions and they are interested It is interesting to note the inevitable reaction enough to monitor the EU’s day-to-day decision- of the Executive to being caught out like this. The making processes. Government contends that the Supreme Court, in There are many obstacles to making this a its usual technical and excessively fussy way, reality. One is the relative influence on the EU merely accused the State of failing to dot the i’s decision-making process exercised by officials and cross the t’s. This means we must pass a new rather than by politicians who have a mandate. I law giving the State the powers which the refer not just to the Brussels bureaucracy which I Supreme Court says we do not have but which described on Second Stage as the most maligned we believed we did. In other words, the Govern- civil service in history — the Official Report ment’s way of fixing a wrongdoing on its part is quoted me as saying “most malign civil service”, to make it legal, not only for the future but also the fault for which was probably in my diction or retrospectively by validating all the wrongful perhaps it was a Freudian slip on somebody’s part actions of the past. — but also to the part played by Irish officials in The Government did not for a moment con- the day-to-day interface between the individual sider the stance it should have taken, which is to member states and the European Commission. acknowledge that the Supreme Court caught it Much of the decision making on EU affairs is out in exceeding its powers and that it must be taken by and between officials, with politicians careful not to make the same mistake in future. coming in at the last minute to rubber stamp and This is the line that should have been taken but add some finesse to the decision. I refer to the it is not a great surprise that it was not. Whenever bread and butter EU decisions rather than the the Executive makes a decision, it is invariably headline issues aired at EU summits. because it suits it rather than that it answers the Added to this, the European Commission has wider need. It is for us, as part of the Legislature, the sole right of initiating EU legislation. There to resist this approach all the way. is already a system that is overbalanced in favour This section is perhaps the most regrettable of officials to the detriment of an input from element of the Bill because it abrogates to the those who have been elected. Against this, there Executive the power to create indictable offences are several valuable safeguards. We must resist by ministerial edict. This shows up at its starkest having them diluted as this section seeks to do. the fundamental weakness of the entire project The most important safeguard involves the role before us. It may seem elementary to remind our- of national parliaments. These are closer to the selves of the basic fact that the reason we have a people of their countries than a bureaucracy Legislature is to make law which the Government based in another country. In the soul searching 1301 European Communities Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Committee Stage 1302 carried out following the rejection of the first decisions. The Commission is vital in ensuring a Nice treaty, the Oireachtas adopted a raft of level playing field. It proposes, discusses, debates, measures to increase scrutiny of European legis- assesses the challenges and complaints from lation that was until then passing into our law European citizens and examines the requirements unnoticed. In the discussions which gave rise to of various governments and the debates at Euro- the EU constitution, a prime consideration was pean Council level. Following that, it is charged increasing and deepening the role of national par- with the responsibility of creating a legislative liaments in the overall European process. This working document which is then debated through section flies in the face of this. It is possible to the political process. At no time has the Com- argue that it provides for efficiency by replacing mission the power to take decisions; it only has primary legislation with the simpler process of a the power to initiate work to be done. We work statutory instrument in the form of a ministerial on that basis. order. I argue against these provisions on the European Community law-making is an grounds of openness and transparency. We must intensely political process involving the govern- increase rather than dilute the amount of EU ments of the member states, which carry with business that is carried out in the full light of day. them their respective democratic mandates, and Ministerial orders, in practice, are invisible. co-decision with the European Parliament. EC law goes through an elaborate and usually leng- An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is speaking thy process which has crucial political input at all against the principles of the Bill rather than the key points. It is often mistakenly assumed that section. decisions are taken by officials or by the Euro- pean Commission. This point was inferred by a Mr. Quinn: No, I am speaking on section 3. number of Senators last week but it is not how things work within the Union. An Cathaoirleach: We are still on section 2. Under the European treaties, the Commission has the right to make proposals for legislation and Mr. Quinn: I apologise. I meant to discuss only a very limited law-making power on a basis section 3. delegated by the Council. The Commission’s role is important in ensuring that proposals are An Cathaoirleach: Is section 2 agreed to? designed to serve the collective European interest Mr. Mooney: I respect the cogent, thoughtful and not the interests of individual member states. and detailed contribution made by Senator The main EU decisions are made in the Quinn. Under section 2, I understand the Council of Ministers where Ireland is invariably Government will not initiate indictable offences. represented by Ministers or Ministers of State This section relates to the European Communi- acting on behalf of the Government. In Ireland, ties Act 1972 which brought Ireland into the the National Forum on Europe regularly debates EEC. The Bill is a result of a Supreme Court European issues. Ministers, especially the Mini- judgment relating to penalties imposed on two ster for Foreign Affairs and I, regularly attend fishermen in County Donegal. Will the Minister meetings of the Joint Committee on European of State clarify the issue of the maximum fine? Affairs to debate proposals from the General Affairs and External Relations Council and other Ms Ormonde: Senator Quinn’s contribution European Councils. All aspects of these pro- was a reiteration of a Second Stage speech. He posals are discussed in general and in detail. spoke about the transparency of the scrutiny of There is cross-fertilisation of ideas and responses EU legislation but I could not make out his point and we leave those meetings armed with the on the section. knowledge of what our legislators require of us in making decisions. Minister of State at the Department of Foreign We go to the Council meetings, therefore, with Affairs (Mr. Treacy): The terms defined in the the back-up of our officials, diplomats, officials in Bill reflect the close interdependence that exists Brussels and civil servants in Ireland and in the between national and EU law at this mature stage Attorney General’s office. All these support us of our EU membership. All too often legislative and ensure that what we do is constitutionally and terms employed in EU legislation are accused of legally correct and is fair and equitable for the being deliberately opaque. That is not true. The people of Ireland. These officials operate in a process of law making from its inception in supporting role and do not take decisions. It is Brussels to the implementation at national level only when a proposal reaches the ministerial level still remains poorly understood even though we that it can be adopted by the Council of have been successful EU members for more than Ministers. 30 years. Constant allegations are made that EU With regard to some of the points raised con- proposals could be processed without any politi- cerning section 2, including those raised last cal input, a charge repeated on Second Stage. week, I explained last week that this section will It is not the case that there is any lack of politi- give Ministers of the Government the power to cal input when decisions are being arrived at in create indictable offences in regulations made the EU. Politicians, not officials, take the pursuant to the European Communities Act 1972 1303 European Communities Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Committee Stage 1304

[Mr. Treacy.] citizens from breaking the law. There is a deter- where the Minister deems such a sanction neces- rent and people know what the impact will be if sary for more serious breaches of EC law. Some they break the law. That does not mean people Members expressed concern at the perceived will not break the law but their chances of break- high levels of the penalties provided for, namely, ing the law are lessened when the penalties are a maximum fine of \500,000 and a maximum enforced. term of imprisonment of three years. Other com- Legislators have the power to put these penal- plained that the scope of the power being given ties into practice, and it is critical that we do so. to Ministers was very wide-ranging. We are bringing uniformity to the maximum Two points should be made. First, the penalties power, on the principle of subsidiarity, that we cited are the maximum penalties under the Bill. are transferring to our Ministers to make statu- These will not be included in every regulation. In tory instruments and secondary legislation. We practice, many regulations adopted to transpose are capping and restricting the power of Ministers EC measures will continue to provide only for and I have no difficulty with that position. summary offences. The level of penalty will need The European Union has evolved significantly to match the seriousness of the offence. The main in the past three decades. This means that the point that must be borne in mind is that the Euro- range and scope of EC law has increased. Many pean Commission proposes, the European such laws have far-reaching objectives to which Council makes decisions and we, as members of member states must give full legal effect at the Union, are obliged to accept those decisions national level. and implement them in our domestic law. On the The maximum levels of the penalties have been principle of subsidiarity, it is the legislators of this set following careful consultation on what is Parliament who make the decisions on what pen- necessary to implement EC law properly and a alties are to be applied and what regulations are review of practice in other countries. In some to be implemented through statutory instruments cases, more stringent penalties will be required. or whatever mechanism. We make those decisions on the basis of the power given to us Ministers in these cases will have to provide for under the Constitution and pursuant to the 1972 such penalties either in existing legislation Act. already approved by the Oireachtas which pro- I can offer some examples. The Sea Pollution vides for such penalties or, if no such legislation (Amendment) Act 1999 provides for penalties of exists, Ministers will have to propose new legis- \10 million and-or five years’ imprisonment. lation which will be fully debated by the Under the Veterinary Practice Act 2005, penal- Oireachtas. We are satisfied that the levels of ties of \320,000 and-or ten years’ imprisonment penalties are reasonable and equitable. are provided for. Under the Animal Remedies Second, in this Bill the Minister will only have Act 1993, a person who has in his or her pos- a limited power to make provision for indictable session a prohibited remedy or an animal which offences where this is necessary to meet our has been administered such a remedy is liable on treaty obligations. In such cases, the Minister will a first offence to a fine of \100,000 or ten years’ need to operate within the parameters laid down imprisonment or both. in section 2. In this case, “necessary” means pre- The Oireachtas passed that legislation. We are cisely what it meant in 1972 when the Oireachtas capping penalties in European legislation at gave Ministers powers to take the actions \500,000 and a maximum of three years’ impris- required nationally to give effect to our EC obli- onment. On the principle of subsidiarity and tak- gations. This requires Ministers to make a careful ing account of our responsibilities, therefore, we assessment of what is required of us nationally to are capping the powers that Ministers have to transpose a specific EC measure into domestic make regulations on all those issues even though law. other legislation permits much greater penalties. There are safeguards. The courts, in a number The penalties in this Bill of a maximum of of important cases, have reviewed the manner in \500,000 fine and up to three years’ imprison- which the State implements EC law by way of ment — and the courts will make the decision on secondary legislation. The courts the actual fine and the term of imprisonment 6 o’clock have outlined in these cases that within those limits — are not especially excessive there are parameters which must be when compared with other legislation. respected when implementing EC law by way of If we are to live up to our obligations, we must secondary legislation. Essentially, secondary be in a position to provide for more stringent legislation should only be used where the EC penalties where these are necessary. In some measure sets out in sufficient detail the principles cases, it is necessary to provide for indictable and policies to be implemented. If this has not offences to give proper effect to certain aspects been done, the courts have indicated that in those of EC law. Indictable offences will only arise instances, primary legislation should be used. where this is necessary to ensure that we can Thus, Ministers’ decisions when implementing provide for sanctions which are effective, pro- EC measures will ultimately be subject to chal- portionate and dissuasive. There is no point hav- lenge in the courts, which are key arbiters on our ing legislation and penalties unless they dissuade precise legal obligations under the treaties. 1305 European Communities Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Committee Stage 1306

I pay tribute to Senator Quinn, as a committed try to deal with the situation caused by the defeat European and national politician, for the contri- of the Nice treaty. We all, including Deputy bution he is making in this debate. On behalf of Treacy in his ministerial capacity, agreed that we all our colleagues I congratulate him on being had to include the citizen to the maximum extent elected chairman of EuroCommerce, an and that no matter what measure was coming important body in the EU. It is important that we from Europe, a major one such as the consti- fulfil the goal of the EU, the Single European tutional treaty or a minor directive, the citizen Act, the thrust of European law and the ethos of had to be part of the process. The free use of the union, that is the mobility of goods, services statutory instruments to transpose European and people. regulations and directives goes against the spirit Ireland has a critical responsibility to fulfil its of what we all agreed two, three or four years obligations as a member state under the EU ago. It goes against the spirit of the progress we directives past and future. To ensure we have an made by the introduction of the Sub-Committee administratively and legally effective solution we on European Scrutiny. It goes against the spirit ask this House to ratify this legislation, taking of the public meetings we have had across the into account the fact that we already did so in country on the EU constitution. If that good work 1972 and that we have acted fairly and success- is to be fruitful and effective we must ensure we fully in implementing European law. However use the parliamentary process to the full, not in a two cases under the Common Fisheries Policy, minimalist, rubber-stamping fashion. That is why taking into account the secondary legislation the I submit to the Minister of State that primary Supreme Court debated, make it mandatory that legislation rather than statutory instrument must we as legislators bring our law up to date so that be to the fore in the European project from an there is no doubt about the capacity of Ministers Oireachtas perspective. I hope the Minister of to make statutory instruments and secondary State considers my comments positive and help- legislation to execute our obligations as members ful. We can win votes at Oireachtas level, but as of the EU. On the principle of subsidiarity and we saw in the Nice treaty vote, unless we can equality we must ensure it is administratively make people feel part of the project the Leinster effective, legally correct and uniform in its appli- House ship may travel in a different direction cation and that we are capping the powers Mini- from the rest of the populace. Fully debated legis- sters can have today and tomorrow in the exercise lation going through both Houses must be the of those serious legal duties. rule rather than the exception.

Question put and agreed to. Ms Ormonde: I understand where Senator Bradford is coming from. We have spoken at SECTION 3. length in this House and at the Joint Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs on the trans- Mr. Bradford: I move amendment No. 1: parency necessary to implement regulations and EU law. I welcome the fact that the Minister of In page 4, lines 38 to 45, to delete subsec- State has noted our concerns, has responded tion (2). accordingly and will ensure statutory instruments What I have just heard from the Minister of State will not be implemented in a dictatorial fashion in response to Senator Quinn’s earlier inter- but will reflect the public. The public wants to vention goes a long way towards supporting my know when there are directives out there and amendment. If we want to keep Europe relevant when they are implemented. When EU laws and real and ensure our part in the European impact on domestic law we must take cognisance project continues strongly, we must ensure we do of the need for transparency. I accept the not distance the people of this country from the Senator’s concern, and the Minister of State has European institutions, all matters flowing from also accepted it and has reassured the House that them and European legislation. Although the it will be considered when he has to implement Minister of State’s speech was an extraordinary any regulations that are part of EU law. I have tour de force, I question its relevance to the man no doubt the Minister of State will take that or woman on the street. While it is politically into account. proper, this use of the jungle of jargon of Euro- pean language can make the citizen of Ireland Mr. Quinn: While I appreciate Senator and Europe feel distant from the European politi- Ormonde’s words and I am convinced the Mini- cal process. Notwithstanding the necessity of the ster of State intends that, he is Minister of State legislation before us, it is crucial that it is dealt for the moment. We are passing legislation that with through primary legislation. My amendment gives a future Minister the opportunity to intro- reflects our disquiet at the ease with which statu- duce statutory instruments instead of primary tory instruments would become the norm rather law. The Minister of State has correctly described than the exception. it as more “effective”. While it will be effective, it In the aftermath of the defeat of the first Nice will not fulfil Senator Bradford’s aim of bringing treaty we had a major debate. Some good came citizens closer to the European idea. Subsidiarity, from it as certain measures were introduced to about which the Minister of State has spoken, is 1307 European Communities Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Committee Stage 1308

[Mr. Quinn.] role of this House, placing us in the scheme of weakened as we avoid primary legislation and European primary legislation on directives. permit statutory instruments. The Nice treaty Senator Quinn has advised that issues regarding failed here but we managed to get it through the this Bill are effected through statutory instru- second time. In France and the Netherlands they ments and regulations that are not passed by turned down the constitutional treaty, and var- either House of the Oireachtas. The Executive ious explanations were given but I believe it was proposes and the Executive disposes. because the citizens were removed from central I have confidence in the Minister of State and Europe. This closeness to the citizens is in danger whoever will represent the Government in EU of being damaged as we pass legislation that is matters. This House could be used as a Second not open to the full glare of publicity. Here and Stage Chamber. Legislation to be transposed into in the rest of Europe, every time we pass legis- Irish law could be debated by this House. We lation by statutory instrument instead of primary could identify its flaws. This would not be for our legislation that passes through the Houses of the sense of ego or because we are wonderful people Oireachtas, we give the Minister the possibility to to discuss EC law. The general public could then pass legislation that is not noticed. It is the wrong find out about the detail and minutiae of EC law. way and we should reconsider it. Thank God for Jimmy Walsh and The Irish Times because I would not like to rely on other national Mr. Mooney: I have much sympathy with the newspapers to be informed of what goes on in argument that is being made. During Second this House. Stage and on previous occasions I have argued I nail my colours to the mast on this issue. I am that there is a vacuum in the relationship between not critical nor do I seek to upset the apple cart. the Executive and the Oireachtas on European I propose an argument that would enhance matters. I appreciate that the constitutional treaty accountability and transparency of EC law. It was going a long way to tidying up many of these would also give an opportunity to the public, who deficiencies and Senator Quinn referred to a we expect to be knowledgeable about the draft strengthened role for national parliaments. EU constitution, to understand what EC law I wondered why there are references to EC and comprises. EU. One learns something new every day. I am grateful to officials from the Department of Mr. Treacy: I sincerely thank all Senators for Foreign Affairs for explaining this to me. They the focused contributions. Senator Bradford have been deservedly acknowledged in the past asked what ordinary citizens would think of this and their ability to weave their way through EC situation. We can be guided by available infor- law is legendary. When one refers to laws, one mation. According to the last European bar- uses the term European Community. When one ometer poll, 87% of Irish citizens were positively refers to external matters, the term is the Euro- in favour of the EU. Some 50% had a strong pean Union. Why does this confusion exist? We interest in the EU and 30% were committed to should not be surprised the public is confused engaging with EU issues. We were pleased that about what is happening in Europe when two we led EU countries in this table. descriptions refer to it. The draft European con- The citizen is part of the process and we as stitution will address this and perform a house- Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas are keeping role on matters such as these. The consti- representatives of the citizen. The Sub-Commit- tutional treaty addresses many abstract issues tee on EU Scrutiny, comprising legislators, also that cause such confusion. Senator Ormonde has represents citizens. The European Parliament, expressed this in her contributions as spokes- the largest and most democratic parliament in the person on European affairs in the Seanad and in world, is directly elected and represents the citi- the Forum for Europe. Why should we be sur- zens of the European Union. By direct decision prised that half the country does not vote on of the Council, or by co-decision with the Parlia- matters regarding Europe? ment, decisions are taken on a democratic basis I will continue to make the point as long as I after an average of three years’ gestation, dis- am a Member that I do not understand why this cussion and debate. At the Council of Ministers House is not used in a more efficient manner for and in partnership with the Parliament a consen- European legislation. The Administration should sus is reached on directives. This is then sent to use this House and the expertise contained in it. the Oireachtas, the representatives of the citizens, The Minister of State is the latest in a long line to ensure it legislates for the decisions taken. of Ministers who have dutifully acknowledged the Member state governments have a democratic expertise in the House. The House has the struc- mandate. Europe is a reservoir of democracy in ture, membership and time required because it is global terms and all member state governments a less adversarial Chamber than the other House. represent citizens. This Bill is about the imple- It can debate matters in a non-confrontational mentation of EC law, initially at European level. manner, as seen earlier on the Genealogy and On the basis of subsidiarity and membership of Heraldry Bill. I hope the momentum encouraging the EU, our citizens expect us to take account of the people to vote for the draft EU constitution the unique character of European law. It is might include a sideways glance at the continuing initiated by the Commission and negotiated 1309 European Communities Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Committee Stage 1310 under various treaties, councils and in the Euro- making such regulations, could amend other pean Parliament. It is ultimately agreed that it is legislation, including primary legislation, when mandatory on us, as legislators and as Govern- necessary for the purposes of giving effect to the ment of a member state, to implement decisions European Community law in question. This was in tandem with others on the basis of subsidiarity, required because of the primacy given by people taking into account our constitutional position to European Community law when they passed a and the peculiarities of various sectors of society, constitutional amendment in 1972 which enabled the economy and the social partnership agree- us to accede to the European Community. ments. Legislators have the ability to pass laws Section 3(2) replicates what is already con- that are equitable and fair, even-handed and tained in the 1972 Act with regard to regulations balanced and to ensure that penalties proposed made for the purposes of implementing Euro- are effective, dissuasive and proportionate. That pean Community law. As the new power will be is the purpose of the Bill. used for dual European Community and national Section 3(1) will permit Ministers to make purposes, it is necessary to replicate the provision regulations to give effect to EC law under the existing in the 1972 Act allowing regulations power already granted by the Oireachtas in made for the purposes of giving effect to Euro- domestic legislation. This is a perfectly reason- pean Community law to amend legislation, able provision which serves to avoid unnecessary including primary legislation, where necessary. duplication of legislation. Prior to the Browne What is being proposed is no more than what and Kennedy judgments, it was thought possible was already provided for in the 1972 Act, to use a domestic regulation-making power for although its remit is more extensive on this the purposes of giving effect to EC law, provided occasion. It is worth noting that section 3(2) is that it fell within the parameters of the particular limited in its scope. It cannot be used to amend domestic Act. The secondary legislation should this Bill, the 1972 Act or the relevant section of be linked to the primary Act. In this case the orig- the primary legislation being used to create the inal legislation of 1959 was passed prior to 1972 statutory instrument. The constitutional validity and the secondary legislation was passed in 1998. of this approach was accepted by the Supreme The Supreme Court struck it down based on the Court in the Meagher v. Minister for Agri- doubt surrounding the link between the three. On culture case. that basis we must revisit it and ensure the link is There are safeguards in place and a Minister clarified and given the full force of the law. can only use existing primary legislation to give Consequently, we are debating it to ensure the effect to a European Community measure if the legislation can stand the test. When penalties are existing primary legislation relates in whole to the enforced they should be legislatively powerful subject matter of the European Community and operable in this jurisdiction. The Supreme measure. For example, a Minister cannot use the Court held that such domestic regulation-making Institutes of Technology Act 2006 to give effect powers were not available for the purposes of giv- to a European Community measure on water ing effect to EC law unless the domestic legis- quality, as it is not permissible to jump from one lation explicitly provided that it could be used for to the other. the purpose of implementing EC law. Prior to However, it makes no sense if a Minister could 1972, nobody could have created a situation not use, for example, an existing Act dealing with under the Constitution whereby we would pass water quality to give effect to a European Com- laws that would conform and adhere to the Euro- munity measure on the same subject. There pean Union. We presumed the 1972 Act would would be cohesion, parallelism, linkage and com- do that but we have found as a result of a monality. On such a basis, it would be practical Supreme Court decision in two cases that this was and sensible to ensure the legislation and the not so. right to create secondary legislation is allowable Consequent to that it behoves us as legislators under the Act. to rectify the matter and ensure the legalities are This section will correct this anomaly and allow clarified and perfected. This would mean the primary legislation which has been fully debated components of law, be they European directives, by the Oireachtas to give effect to relevant Euro- domestic law, secondary legislation or statutory pean Community measures which cover the same instruments, have the force of law which is full, subject matter as the existing legislation. As out- legal, operable, acceptable to the Supreme Court lined earlier, the courts have set out the par- and fair to the citizens of the land. It is therefore ameters within which it is acceptable to use sec- necessary to make explicit provision for domestic ondary legislation to implement European powers to be used for the purpose of imple- Community measures. According to the courts, in menting European Community law. some instances it will not be appropriate to use In 1972, the Oireachtas gave Ministers the secondary legislation and primary legislation will power to give effect to European Community be required. Ministers are always subject to the measures through statutory instruments. At that review of the courts when using secondary legis- time the Oireachtas indicated that Ministers, in lation. I ask the House to accept the section as 1311 European Communities Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Committee Stage 1312

[Mr. Treacy.] Question put: “That the words proposed to be laid down and I regret I cannot accept the amend- deleted stand.” ment so generously tabled and well debated by the Senator, and so well supported by the House.

The Committee divided: Ta´, 21; Nı´l, 17.

Ta´

Fitzgerald, Liam. Moylan, Pat. Glynn, Camillus. O´ Murchu´ , Labhra´s. Hanafin, John. O’Brien, Francis. Kenneally, Brendan. O’Rourke, Mary. Kett, Tony. Ormonde, Ann. Kitt, Michael P. Phelan, Kieran. Leyden, Terry. Scanlon, Eamon. Lydon, Donal J. Walsh, Jim. Mansergh, Martin. White, Mary M. Minihan, John. Wilson, Diarmuid. Mooney, Paschal C.

Nı´l

Bradford, Paul. McCarthy, Michael. Burke, Paddy. O’Meara, Kathleen. Burke, Ulick. O’Toole, Joe. Coghlan, Paul. Phelan, John. Cummins, Maurice. Quinn, Feargal. Feighan, Frank. Ryan, Brendan. Finucane, Michael. Terry, Sheila. Hayes, Brian. Tuffy, Joanna. Henry, Mary.

Tellers: Ta´, Senators Minihan and Moylan; Nı´l, Senators Cummins and Quinn.

Question declared carried. with one stroke of the pen difficulties which would have arisen and to make right issues which Amendment declared lost. may have been wrong, is something about which we must be concerned. Section 3 agreed to. The power we are giving the Minister of State and the Government through the introduction of SECTION 4. section 4 is excessive and is not the only necessary response to the Supreme Court judgment. If Question proposed: “That section 4 stand part Members excuse the pun, it is certainly a rush to of the Bill.” judgment.

Mr. Bradford: I oppose section 4. We have the Mr. Mooney: I would again be grateful for the advantage of the helpful advice received from the Minister of State’s clarification on this. I was of Minister of State’s office of his views on our the opinion that because the issue of validation amendments. The Minister of State expressed arose on Second Stage, the Minister of State went surprise that I oppose this section. He recounted quite a long distance in explaining the reasons. my comments made last week that we must Am I correct in saying that apart from section 2, respond to the Supreme Court judgment, which it also formed the core of the Bill in that it relates we do. However, needing to respond to the to the validation of certain statutory instruments? Supreme Court judgment and how we respond to Irrespective of and despite my earlier comments it are different matters. about the processes of statutory instruments, this In a recent Supreme Court case, a written sub- Bill is essentially about where statutory instru- mission was made but not argued orally in court ments are implemented because there is an obli- concerning the retrospective nature of the type of gation on the Government under primary legis- statutory instrument mentioned in section 4. On lation already in place to give effect to what November 28, the Supreme Court judgment would be the obligations of our membership, for found against the appellants. This is my concern example, in respect of indictable offences and about section 4, namely, the retrospective nature maximum fines. That is, essentially, what this of what we are attempting. Obviously, the section is about. I would again be grateful for the Government and the Minister of State must Minister of State’s clarification. respond once the Supreme Court adjudicates, but how we respond is what is being debated in Mr. Quinn: I support Senator Bradford’s pro- respect of this amendment. This effort to put posal. The questions of retrospection and vali- everything in order retrospectively, to correct dation of a statutory instrument are clear in this. 1313 European Communities Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Committee Stage 1314

I am opposed in principle to the effect of the Bradford clearly stated that he fully accepts the statutory instruments being used. I know Senator necessity and urgency of this Bill and I think all Ormonde has already accused me of making a Senators accept this, which I appreciate. Senator Second Stage speech on this matter. However, Bradford stated that the Supreme Court judge- the truth is that ministerial orders are, in effect, ments needed to be responded to. This has been invisible. They are stealth legislation and are not the theme of my speeches from both last week subject, in practice, to any scrutiny and rarely, if and this week. Despite this, Senator Bradford ever, raise themselves above the parapet and into now proposes to remove from the Bill one of its public visibility. There is a place in the overall essential elements, which is the very provision scheme of things for ministerial orders and statu- that responds to and seeks to deal with the con- tory instruments, but we should be very careful sequences of the Supreme Court judgements. about what we send into this realm because, in This section aims to remove uncertainty and effect, what we are doing is giving up account- doubt about the status of the secondary legis- ability and consigning the matter into the outer lation affected by the Supreme Court judgements. darkness of invisibility. Ministerial orders are The desirability of doing so was widely acknow- very popular because, in my experience, many ledged last Thursday. When passed, this section officials have a horror of getting involved in the will confirm the validity of the hundreds of statu- legislative process and much prefer to do it when tory instruments, while at the same time protect- they only have an audience of one. ing the constitutional rights of our people. Again, The net effect of this Bill as a whole will be to we must have balance. We protect the validity of make it possible for a European legislative pro- the statutory instruments and also protect the posal to pass through the entire process, from constitutional rights of our people. The Legis- conception until promulgation into law, without lature must respond to the Supreme Court the benefit of any political input. Section 4 states decisions and we, as legislators, are doing so in that “Every statutory instrument made before the this Bill. passing of this Act . . . shall, in so far as it pur- It seems irresponsible for the Government and ported to give such effect, have statutory effect as the Houses of the Oireachtas to require every one if it were an Act of the Oireachtas.” It is the very of the hundreds of those regulations to be principle of this which worries me because I remade, re-enacted and debated again. We would believe what we are doing is incorrect. It will cer- have a current debate on historic situations that tainly be effective in making legislation work but had been part of our corpus of legislation over it will not bring our citizens closer to the Euro- the years. This would seem to be a waste of pean Union. This is what we should be aiming to parliamentary time and legally unsound. After do at the same time. I support Senator Bradford all, they were adopted in good faith on the in his effort to replace this section. assumption that Ministers were perfectly entitled to use domestic legislation to give effect to EC Ms Ormonde: I would hate to think our Mini- law. It was accepted by everybody — lawyers, ster of State is not accountable, which seems to legislators and the populace at large — that this be the implication of what has been said. It was the proper thing to do. Section 4 seeks to appears to imply that statutory instruments give validate those regulations and confirm the aspir- the power, as opposed to the introduction of sec- ations and beliefs of all the different parties to all ondary legislation, which would give the power to these legislative situations, be they our citizens, the Houses of the Oireachtas in respect of imple- legislators, lawyers or our Governments. menting any EC law. I would hate it if the Mini- The Supreme Court in Browne v. Attorney ster of State were unable to overcome that prob- General and Kennedy v. Attorney General held lem and if he were to say that it gave him such that a regulation-making power could only be power that he was no longer accountable. That is used to give effect to EC law where it specified not what this section is about. I am reading it and this as one of its purposes. I highlighted the spec- am glad the Minister of State has written it down ific timelines which had given rise to this problem to clarify the position. I think he knows exactly in the case brought by that fisherman prosecuted what he is doing by making his statement. It is under an order in 1998 made under an Act passed too loose otherwise. He could not possibly make in 1959 to give effect to treaty obligations we a statement in the House which could be inter- undertook when we joined the EC in 1973. In this preted as his saying that he is not accountable, legislation, we are tying all the periods and legis- that any EC regulations introduced are not trans- lation together. We are giving validity to all the parent and that he has the power to ride rough- Acts to have secondary legislation attaching to shod over everybody. I could not stand over that them and taking that into one commonality of EC and I have no doubt that this is not the Minister law that under such law, this Act copperfastens of State’s intention, but I will let him speak for the initial decisions and legislation passed in the himself. European Communities Act 1972. We are bring- ing all this together to have clarity and full legal- Mr. Treacy: This is again a very interesting ity and force of law, which is very important. debate for which I thank all the Senators This Bill is intended to ensure uniformity in our involved. Last Thursday and again today, Senator mechanism for meeting our EC obligations and 1315 European Communities Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Committee Stage 1316

[Mr. Treacy.] body of an Act. The Supreme Court has, there- to end any uncertainty regarding measures intro- fore, already made a decision, the basis of which duced over the past 33 years. It does so by is similar to what we are seeking to achieve. What importing into every existing domestic regulation- we are doing conforms with successive Supreme making power the ability to use that power for Court decisions, the Constitution, our major cor- the purpose of giving effect to EC law where the pus of law and secondary legislation. instrument of EC law falls within the scope of the Senator Quinn and others raised a number of Act in question. It is very clear. We are engaged issues. A statutory instrument must be published in a serious legal brick-building exercise. We have in Iris Oifigiu´il, the official journal of the State, the baseline of the Constitution of the country, and the national newspapers, and it subject to the under which we brought in the European Com- courts. Any Department worth its salt will pub- munities Act 1972 Act. We also have the baseline lish, by press release, decisions signed by Mini- or common European directives passed by the sters in the form of statutory instruments. Council of Ministers and the European Parlia- ment. Linking the two, on behalf of the citizens Mr. Mooney: Several times. of Ireland, is this new Bill, which grants power to ensure that the primary Acts of Parliament Mr. Treacy: Indeed, usually on the day before passed over the centuries and also the statutory they are published in the newspapers. Statutory instruments and secondary legislation created are instruments appear in the newspapers and Iris accepted in law by the courts as legal instruments, Oifigiu´il on the same day. If a person is pros- connect with European directives and conform ecuted under the statutory instrument, the latter with the Constitution. We are doing no more and must stand, in the first instance, the test of the no less. This represents good law making. court where the prosecution takes place. It must Section 4 is required to validate any regulations also stand the test of an appeal being taken from which may have been made under purely a lower to a higher court in respect of a part- domestic regulation-making power but which give icular matter. effect to European Union law within the scope of Statutory instruments must face the same rig- the Act in which the power appears. The regu- ours as primary legislation. They must also stand lations being validated come within the ambit of the tests to which I refer and be cleared by the the power to make regulations which was already Attorney General and the Parliamentary Coun- granted by the Oireachtas, save that the sel. They are, therefore, subject to strong legal Oireachtas did not specify that the power could scrutiny. In addition, there is an obligation to be used for the purpose of giving effect to Euro- ensure that a Minister taking a decision is doing pean Union law. The Oireachtas presumed that it so on behalf of the Government and the was giving the power but it did not specify that Oireachtas. On that basis, I deem that section 4 fact. The position is being rectified by means of is critical to the sustainability of law and I ask the this Bill. House to validate it. We are importing into every such instance of the power to which I refer the power to make Question put and declared carried. regulations not only for the domestic purposes specified in legislation but also for the purpose of Section 5 agreed to. giving effect to European Union law in areas Title agreed to. which fall within the parameters of that legis- lation. It is, therefore, appropriate to validate the Bill reported without amendment and received regulations made and which, because of the for final consideration. judgments in Browne and Kennedy cases, are now in doubt. Many such regulations deal with Question proposed: “That the Bill do now matters of a very technical nature, such as, for pass.” example, the rules relating to the identification of animals. It is only the regulatory matters that are Mr. Mooney: If this debate has revealed any- being saved by section 4. The latter provides that thing, it is an undercurrent of concern among no regulations which conflict with the consti- Senators regarding the process involved in how tutional right of any individual can be saved by information relating to the laws, directives and that provision. statutory instruments of the European Union The approach adopted in section 4 of validating emerges and is communicated to the public. In existing secondary legislation reflects an that context, I again suggest to the Minister of approach adopted in a number of previous State that when he is reflecting on this matter and instances. It was used, for example, in section 4 on the wider issue of the European constitution of the Immigration Act 1999, which was the sub- which, as the Taoiseach indicated, will soon be ject of a challenge in Leontjava v. the Director of before the people, the administration and Public Prosecutions. In the case to which I refer, execution of business of the Sub-Committee on the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality European Scrutiny be reviewed. of the approach, namely, incorporating instru- A number of Members have had experience of ments by reference rather than verbatim in the the sub-committee to which I refer. Its work is 1317 European Communities Bill 2006: 12 December 2006. Committee Stage 1318 obtuse, complicated, highly technical and com- devoting one day every week or ten days, or one plex. I fully appreciate that the directives are week in every five or six to European issues highly technical and legalistic in nature. I am which require that time. To have the sub-commit- grateful to one of the Minister of State’s officials tee meeting every second week, and the who pointed out that a number of countries Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs adopted an attitude that is the opposite of that trying to find a slot between other committees which obtains in this country in respect of the with us rushing in and out of meetings is not the processing of directives. The parliaments in the way to do business. countries to which I refer deal with directives, The European Union is so relevant to every statutory instruments and regulations as primary citizen that the Parliament needs to give it a little legislation, with the result that their business is more respect. If we do that, the people will now in a tangle. Italy is one of the countries in respond even more enthusiastically as we begin question and its Parliament must debate, ad nau- the next phase of EU development and further seam, every item that comes from Europe. That treaty debate. is the other side of the equation. I will not repeat what I said earlier. However, Mr. Quinn: I thank the Minister of State and I hope that, in the interests of all the issues raised his officials for their attention to the details in in this debate, namely, accountability, trans- and queries raised on this Bill. Some of my words parency, due process and, most importantly, the may have appeared anti-official but that was not needs of the electorate, to the members of which my intention, apart from being pro-democracy. we are all responsible, a review might be carried Senator Mooney touched on my concerns which out into how directives, statutory instruments, stretch to the overall EU ideal and the danger etc. are transposed into Irish law. We might then, that we will lose the trust and confidence of the perhaps, be in a position to take a more positive citizens. There must be a better way to scrutinise view of Europe. As the Minister of State indi- legislation, perhaps through reform of the cated, the figure in this regard — 87% — is quite Seanad. high. If, however, people were obliged to listen to Part of my reason for being anti-statutory what we have been obliged to listen to in this instrument was that in 1970, I won a case in the debate, would it remain at that level? Supreme Court on the basis of a statutory instru- ment written in 1938. That was the only case that Mr. Bradford: I thank the Minister of State for ever went to the Supreme Court on Article 44, his willingness to listen to the views of Members. which covers discrimination on the grounds of I concur with Senator Mooney’s comments. The religion, and it was found that the statutory majority of Members of the House are pro-Euro- instrument fell short of the Constitution. I will tell pean. Where small difficulties arise, we would the Minister of State about it some other time. like them addressed and dealt with in order that That is one reason I have a personal interest in room for doubt is not created among members ensuring that legislation goes through in the full of the public. I welcome the Minister of State’s light of consideration by Parliament. comments on the statistics relating to polls in the context of what the people of Ireland think of Ms Ormonde: I thank the Minister of State and Europe. When a real vote on what people think his officials for processing this Bill in the Seanad of Europe took place in the first referendum on and for making it somewhat easier to understand. the Nice treaty, however, and notwithstanding When I started to read this Bill I found it very what the opinion polls had indicated, citizens technical. I agree with many of the points raised voted differently when there was room for doubt. on the other side of the House in respect of trans- We need to fill the void in this regard. parency and that there is too much power going Senator Mooney referred to the Sub-Commit- in one direction. tee on EU Scrutiny, of which I am a member. At We do not emphasise enough the importance 9.30 a.m. every second Thursday, the sub-commit- of getting the message out to the electorate. I tee deals with 50, 60 or 70 proposals would like the Minister of State to push for this 7 o’clock from Europe. It is removed in every House to have responsibility for informing the respect from the public yet each of electorate about how the European Union works. those proposals and submissions is of great That is the core of this Bill. We all worry that the importance to every citizen. We must find some so-called Mr. European is out there and is not way to ensure the public knows what is done on involved with us. This is becoming more its behalf and the relevance of the work of the important in respect of directives. We must use Sub-Committee on EU Scrutiny. this House, and the Forum on Europe and the Some time in the past 12 months we had a Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs Europe day in the Oireachtas, at the instigation to get our message out. I wish the Minister of of Deputy Quinn, which worked well. A token State well in bringing the Bill through the Da´il. Europe day every now and then is not enough. Who knows which of us will be here when the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Oireachtas considers further reform of its busi- Affairs (Mr. Treacy): I sincerely thank the Leas- ness? I hope by then it will be moving towards Chathaoirleach and all the Senators for their 1319 Garda Vetting 12 December 2006. Unit 1320

[Mr. Treacy.] Law Reform inquiring whether additional speedy consideration of this Bill. I appreciate the resources would be made available to the Garda sincerity, commitment and dedication people vetting unit to allow it to carry out its additional bring to this House and admire the legislative responsibilities. The Ta´naiste stated in reply that work done here. staffing levels at the Garda vetting unit were “ad- I especially thank Senator Quinn for alluding equate to meet existing and foreseeable to the fact that he was involved in a Supreme demand”. Court decision in 1970. I will ask some of the law- Not long after, a letter was issued to a cre`che yers who support us as outstanding officials to dig owner in Dublin from a Garda inspector which that out, and I may read it over Christmas or stated: afterwards. It shows how we, as citizens who become legislators, can be involved in the process Unfortunately, due to current agreed com- which helps to make us better legislators. mitments to other organisations who have been I am grateful to everybody in the House whose waiting for Garda vetting services for some lead and positive attitude to the Bill and to the time, we cannot extend vetting to your organis- European project I hope will be followed by our ation at present. colleagues in the Da´il. We are here to ensure that As I feared, cre`ches and pre-schools applying for we have the fairest, most balanced and even- handed legislative process possible for the citi- vetting to the Garda vetting unit in Thurles would zens, taking into account our responsibilities not be accommodated. The minimum time for under the Constitution and as members of the processing a vetting application is two months. European Union. From October to December is only a three- We have done a good day’s work for which I month period so I did not see how it would be am deeply grateful. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirle- possible for the Garda vetting unit to process all ach, the Clerk to the Seanad and all the staff and the applications. Without these applications being officials from the Department for their tremen- processed, cre`ches and pre-schools would be con- dous work. I wish a very happy Christmas to all. sidered to be in breach the law, not through their own fault but because of the Government’s Question put and agreed to. failure. I read in The Sunday Business Post that the An Leas-Chathaoirleach: When is it proposed regulations will not now be implemented until to sit again? September 2007. It is unacceptable that a Mini- ster should announce regulations but not put in Ms Ormonde: Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. place the necessary resources to ensure those who are affected by them can operate efficiently. In Adjournment Matters. effect, the Minister has not thought through the short timeframe provided for in the regulations. ———— Staff in Health Service Executive offices who handle child care inspections need to be trained. Garda Vetting Unit. It is my understanding that no training has been Ms O’Meara: I thank the Minister of State, scheduled before Christmas so the training will Deputy Noel Ahern, for coming to the House to take place in the new year at the earliest. Surely respond to this important matter of the Garda the Government knew that when it published the vetting unit in Thurles, County Tipperary. I new child care regulations. The situation is in dis- specifically refer to the recently allocated array. I invite the Minister of State to explain how responsibility to manage an element of the this has happened and to give an assurance on updated child care regulations. the matter so that the staff needed in the Garda On 9 October last, the Minister of State, vetting unit in Thurles are made available. Chil- Deputy Brian Lenihan, announced welcome new dren will be affected by this lack of provision. child care regulations. They were long overdue. The requirement to vet staff is essential and This was informed by a wider consultation pro- one with which we all agree. Resources must be cess that had taken place over a number of years. One widely welcomed aspect of the regulations put in place to ensure this takes place. It is was that staff, including voluntary staff, of pre- unacceptable that the implementation of the schools and cre`ches would have to be vetted. Sur- regulations has been postponed rather than the prisingly, cre`che owners were only given until the necessary staff provided. If it were the case that end of this year to prepare for the new regu- the postponement was until March, for instance, lations which were due to come into force on 1 one could accept that the Minister may have January next. made a mistake, but that is not the case. I look It occurred to me at the time that the vetting forward to the response of the Minister of State, requirement, in particular, would put a great deal Deputy Noel Ahern. I have major concerns about of pressure on the staff of the Garda vetting unit this matter, the handling of which has been less in Thurles. Accordingly, I tabled a question to the than satisfactory. I am being kind in using that Ta´naiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and expression. 1321 Garda Vetting 12 December 2006. Unit 1322

Minister of State at the Department of the sectors themselves, not least in terms of eliminat- Environment, Heritage and Local Government ing duplication and preventing waste in the pro- (Mr. N. Ahern): I speak on behalf of the Ta´naiste cessing of incorrectly completed vetting appli- and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law cation forms. Reform on this important topic of vetting in the The Office of the Minister for Children, which pre-school sector. I trust the House will allow me has responsibility for the pre-school sector, is rep- to address some of the apparently erroneous resented on the multi-agency implementation assumptions made in the matter raised on the group overseeing the roll-out of Garda vetting Adjournment. nationally. That office is aware of and in agree- It is the case that the coming into operation of ment with the principle of a sectoral central point the Child Care (Pre-School Services) Regulations of contact. To that end, the Office of the Minister 2006 has been deferred from 2 January, 2007 to 3 for Children remains engaged in the process of September, 2007. These regulations provide, inter identifying and developing such a point of contact alia, that a person carrying on a pre-school service shall ensure appropriate vetting of all for the pre-school sector. staff, students and volunteers who have access to In this regard, the Ta´naiste understands that a child by acquiring Garda vetting. However, it is discussions are ongoing with the Health Service not correct to state that this deferment is the Executive and a number of umbrella bodies for result of insufficient human resources or pro- the sector. Unfortunately, this process of adminis- cessing capacities within the Garda central vet- trative development has taken longer than orig- ting unit. inally intended, but the Ta´naiste understands that To facilitate the roll-out of Garda vetting to an the Office of the Minister for Children is deter- increasing number of sectors from the first quar- mined to ensure appropriate processing systems ter of this year, staffing of the Garda central vet- are in place as soon as possible. In any event, on ting unit has been more than doubled. Thanks to behalf of the Ta´naiste and Minister for Justice, these additional resources, the Garda central vet- Equality and Law Reform, I state unambiguously ting unit has the capacity to expand its vetting that Garda vetting will be extended to the pre- service to the pre-school sector on a phased basis school sector as soon as appropriate liaison mech- during 2007. The reason for the deferment of the anisms for the sector are put in place, including coming into operation of the 2006 regulations the identification of a sectoral central point of relates to the organisation of the pre-school sec- contact to manage vetting applications and dis- tor itself rather than anything to do with the closures thereon. Garda central vetting unit. For each sector On the question of staffing, the human requiring vetting, whether it be the education sec- resource requirements of the Garda central vet- tor, the health sector or whatever, the Garda cen- ting unit are monitored on an ongoing basis to tral vetting unit provides its vetting service via a sectoral central point of contact, the task of which ensure a match between vetting demand and pro- is to process vetting applications centrally for cessing capacities. The additional human and that sector. other resources already provided to the unit have This arrangement is not simply an administra- been more than adequate to meet demand to tive convenience, rather it is an important date, and the Garda authorities have not made element in the professionalisation of the vetting any further additional staffing requests to the process by which vetting application forms can be Ta´naiste. However, I assure the Senator that properly and attentively processed and the crimi- should additional staffing requirements arise, the nal record disclosure process properly managed. Ta´naiste has indicated his willingness to consider In this regard, there is a huge onus on each sector any such application in a favourable light. to ensure the proper checking of applicants’ identities and that the information supplied on Ms O’Meara: I thank the Minister of State for vetting application forms is accurate and honest. clarifying the position. It is worse than I thought. If these steps are not performed diligently, then It is a major administrative error which should the benefits of vetting are set at nought. To facili- have been spotted last October. I find it difficult tate best practice in this regard, the Garda central to believe the Office of the Minister for Children vetting unit delivers comprehensive training to could not have foreseen this problem. It is the sectoral central points of contact as an unacceptable that it has left it until the last important means of promoting vetting as an aid minute to deal with the issue and also, in the to child protection, but only when properly Minister of State’s response, there is not one ref- managed. erence to the needs of children. The sectoral central point of contact system is in place for all the sectors to which vetting has Mr. N. Ahern: I will convey to the Minister already been extended, including the primary and what has been said. To be fair the reply is post-primary education sectors, the youth work about—— sector, the care home sector and so on. This approach has proven its worth from both the per- Ms O’Meara: It is a total cop-out. spective of the Garda central vetting unit and the 1323 The 12 December 2006. Adjournment 1324

Mr. N. Ahern: I will not comment on that one been received about this scheme and I am aware way or the other. If I came to the House with a of how important it is locally. six or ten-page reply—— I am glad to re-affirm that the funding for the scheme has been set aside in the Department’s Ms O’Meara: One line would have been water services investment programme 2005-2007. enough. A sum of \2.8 million has been earmarked for Kinvara and this money is available for draw- Mr. N. Ahern: —— on the needs of children, down by Galway County Council as soon as it is the Senator would ask me to get to the point and required. The position with the scheme is that the give an answer relevant to the question. I will not Department is finalising its examination of comment on the other matter as I am not as Galway County Council’s preliminary report in knowledgeable on it as the Senator. Therefore, I light of the additional information received from will reserve comment on whether it is a cop-out the council at the end of October. or otherwise. The preliminary report is a detailed document that sets out the objectives, proposed areas to be Ms O’Meara: I thank the Minister of State. served, and outputs expected from a water services scheme. Given the fundamental import- Water and Sewerage Facilities. ance of the preliminary report, the Department must be fully satisfied that the proposals con- Mr. Kitt: I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for tained in it can meet the environmental objectives allowing me to raise this issue and the Minister set for the scheme and that they represent the of State for coming to reply. For many years the most appropriate and cost effective solution from town of Kinvara has been in need of a sewerage a public expenditure point of view. Needless to scheme which comes within the small schemes say, a scheme cannot just deal with current prob- projects. I hope we can get approval and funding lems, it must also ensure that infrastructure is put for the scheme. The people of Kinvara have in place to cater for future needs and, in this case, waited many years for such a scheme. While the to protect Kinvara Bay from pollution for the town is a tourist area, tourism cannot develop in foreseeable future. the absence of a sewerage scheme. We would also The Department is anxious to get the scheme like to see the development of the oyster and under way as soon as possible and to see it pro- mussel farms. It is hard to envisage housing gressing through the approval and contract pro- development while no sewerage scheme exists. In cesses and on to construction with the least pos- the summer there is the problem of stench from sible delay. The Minister will, therefore, ensure the bay. Given the length of time it has taken to that a decision on the preliminary report is con- have a decision made on the scheme, people are veyed to Galway County Council as soon as pos- concerned it will never happen. sible. Approval of the report will allow the Recently the Minister for the Environment, council to prepare contract documents. Since it is Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, expected to cost less than \5 million, the council was in Gort and met a community group from will be free to advance the scheme right through Kinvara who were anxious to have a decision. I to construction without further reference to the hope the Department can make the decision Department. A number of streamlining measures quickly. I would appreciate it if approval were have been introduced to speed up water and given so that work could begin as soon as sewerage schemes being funded under the possible. Department’s water services investment prog- Mr. N. Ahern: I am taking this Adjournment ramme. As a result the Kinvara scheme will move matter on behalf of the Minister for the Envir- ahead quickly once the preliminary report is onment, Heritage and Local Government, approved. Deputy Roche. I thank Senator Kitt for the I assure the Senator that I have listened care- opportunity to update the House on the progress fully to what he has said and will report back to of this important scheme. the Department. I am sure the Department will The Minister is conscious of the unsatisfactory do everything it can to facilitate an early start on state of affairs in Kinvara where raw sewage is the construction of the scheme. being discharged directly into the bay. This Mr. Kitt: I thank the Minister of State. arrangement is not acceptable in this day and age. The Department is determined that it should end The Seanad adjourned at 7.30 p.m. until as quickly as possible. Many representations have 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 13 December 2006.