Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 23 AUGUST 1893

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

594 Meat and Dairg, cj"c. Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Duty on Imported Coal and Timber.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Wednesday, 23 August, 1893. Inquests of Death Act Amendment Bill : Assent.­ Duty on Imported Coal and Timber.-Examination or Imported Fruit.-Meat and Dairy Produce Encouragement Bill: Third reading. - Central Separation.-Pearl-shell and Beche-de-mer Fishery Acts Amendment Bill : Message from the Legisla­ tive CounciL-Adjournment. The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock. INQUESTS OF DEATH ACT AMEND­ MENT BILL. AssENT. The SPEAKER reported that he had received a message from His Excellency the , assenting to the Inquests of Death Act of 1866, Amendment Bill. DUTY ON IMPORTED COAL AND TIMBER. Mr. HARDINGasked the Colonial Treasnrer- 1. Is it correct that the coal used on the hulks at , Cooktown, and Thmsday Island, and brought from New South Wales, pay_s no duty? 2, Was a lot of timber delivered at Townsville Meat Works on which no duty was collected? · 3, And if so, on what authority? Central Separation. [23 AuGUsT.] Central Separation. 505

The COLONIAL TREASURER (Hon. great Central division of the colony. Shortly H. M. Nelson) replied- after the colony of Queenslanrl. obtained separa­ 1. Dutie• are collected on all coal imported into the tion from New South Wales the people lidng to colony in accordance with the Customs Act. the north of Dawes Range, who were really 2. No dutiable timber has been delivered at the port offshoots from the colonies

were embodied in a Bill which was intro­ Lordship's hands. The Governor, in a despatch duced and ·read a first time. In 1877 Sir to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, re­ S. \Y. Griffith introduced what is known as ferring to the amendment brought forward by the Financial Districts Bill, to divide the colonY Sir S. W. Griffith, said he did not feel called into three parts, and provide for the keeping of upon to express an opinion upon the resolutions separate account.< of the expenditure within such then before Parliament, but it app<>ared to him that divisions and the revenue raised therein. At the the amendment proposed by Sir S. \V. Griffith same time he laid upon the table of the House practically admitted the necessity or expediency of a m::tp showing the boundaries of the three some considerable measure of separation, to divide divisions, but the Bill was afterwards withdrawn. Queensland into three parts. In 1891, when Sir In the same year the people of Central Queens­ S. 1¥. Griffith submitted his proposals in a re­ land presented a petition through Mr. Pattison, vised form, after considerable discussion they one of the members for Rockhampton, praying were rejected, and between that time and the for the establishment of a system of provincial introduction of the Queensland Constitution councils. In the following ye::tr Sir Thomas Bill, No. 1, the people of Central Queensland Mci!wmith introduced a Bill adopting the boun­ despatched delegates to London, where they had daries of the three divisions laid down in the map a long interview with Lord Knutsford. Lord laid upon the table by Sir S. W. Griffith, and the Knutsford told them that he was advised boundaries of these divisions are described in the that the proposals would be reintroduced Real Property (Local Regi.,tries) Act of 1887. in the form of a Bill, and that he had Hon. members will bear in mind that the made up his mind to await the further dis­ tripartite division of the colony was al wc;ys the cussion of those proposals. He said, sub­ fundamental basis, and there is no doubt what­ stn,ntially, that, in the event of the proposals ever that Nature herself dictates the division of being again rejected by the Queensland Parlia­ the colony of Queensland into at least three ment, the time would then have arrived, in his parts. On the one hand, we have the tropical opiniun, when the Imperial Government and the North, then the semi-tropical Centre, and then Imperial Parliament would no longer wish to the temperate South. It is quite clear that, owing delay in giving effect to the wishes of the people to the vastness of the territory and the great of Central Queensland. · diversity of its interests and conditions, a policy The COLONIAL TREASURER: I do not which wonld suit one part would not suit another. :B'or instance, I should imagine that a land law think he said that. suitable for the Southern division would certainly 'rhe PREMIER: No, nor anything like that. not meet the requirements of Central or Northern Mr. CURTIS: Mr. Archer, the senior mem­ Queensland. Every attempt at securing some ber for Rockhampton, will give a full account of measure of decentralisation having failed, the what transpired between himself and Lord second separation movement was i11augurated Knutsford. · in Central Queensland some four years ago with great vigour and determination-with a The COLONIAL TREASURER : He said determination on the part of the people to he would take the matter into consideration. carry it sooner or later to a successful Mr. CURTIS: On 26th July, 1892, in moving­ issue, bec"mse they felt they were only asking the second reading of the Queensland Constitu­ for that to which they were justly entitled. tion Bill, tlir S. \V. Griffith said that "the In 1890, Mr. Archer, on behalf of the people of movement for local autonomy has so far pro­ Central Queensland, broug-ht forward a motion greqsed that, unless this Parliament moves, the in this House ·affirming the de•irahleness of Parliament of Great Britain, which has a con­ granting separation to Central Queensland, and trolling authority, will certainly be invited to the Hon. J. M. :l\Iacros··an introduced a similar move. \V e have to choose between two alterna­ motion with regard to Northern Queensland. tiveB. Either we must rise to the occasion J\fr. J\Iacrosdan, in referring to Central Queens­ and deal with the matter fairly and honestly, land, said Queensland was too big for good endeavouring to do the best for all parts of the government, that it would make four or five colony-not looking to our own corner of it good States, and therefore he would vote for alone; but looking to the whole of it-or else we bhe separation of the Central district. Those shall have the matter taken out of our hands motions were met by an mnendment moved by the Imperial legislature, and they will do by SirS. W. Griffith, affirming tha~ territorial what they think best under the circumstances." separation was not desirable, but that a federative division of the colony w<1s desi.rable. The resolu­ The COLONIAL TREASURER: Do you tions were neg-atived, and the amendment,. when endorse that ? it became the substantive proposition, was so Mr. CUllTIS : I do, substantially; and more coolly recci ved by Southern members that it w::ts '''pecially that part which states that, failing this allowed to drop. In the interval between the Parliament consenting to g-ive the Central and rejection of the motions f spoke of and the intro­ N ortbern districts what they want, the Imperial duction of the amendment, a letter was signed by P~trliament would step in and do it for them. the following m em hers of the Queensland legis­ The hon. gentleman further on said that "atten­ lature, and despatched to Lord Knutsford, in tion was naturally called to the remarkable reference to Central separation :-vVm. Pattison, circumstance that the Southern members solidly A. Archer, \V, S. Paul; J. Murray, Rees R. voted against the almost unanimous requests Jones, A. J. Callan, J. M. Macrossan, R. Philp, of the Northern and Central members: a very D. H. Dalrymple, F. Clewett, Ed. Palmer, M. remarkable circumstance, because, if hon. mem­ H. Black, J. Stevenson, A. S. Cowley, L. bers would put themselves in the position of Goldring, J. Hamilton, F. R. Murphy, W. persons looking on at those proceedings, they C. Little, J. Crombie, I. Lissner, R. H. would see that the people of the Northern and Smith, \V. Aplin, \V. F. Lambert, R. G. Oasey, Central districts asked for a thing which in the P. O'Sullivan, and J. Deane. In that letter hi.~tory of the world had been almost universally the men,bers in qufcstion, comprising nearly conceded to people making similar requests. A all the Northern and Central memberg and not unreasonable inference to be drawn from some Southern members, together with four that was that the Southern members were members of the Legislative Council, expressed actuated by motives of selfishness in considering­ the opinion that Central Queensland was in a the interests of the Southern part of the colony position to be erected into an independent in opposition to the interests of the colony as a colony, and praying for consideration at His whole." Central Separation. [23 AUGUST.] Central Separation. 50'1

The COLONIAL TREASURER : You had a strugg-le. It is not in humannatnre to suppose better read the reply to that. they would; therefore we do not expect it. The Mr. CURT IS : While the discussion was going people of Moreton Hay took a very dffi'erent on, the Brisbane Courier, the leading journal in v_iew of the subject when they wanted separa­ the colony, expressed an opinion on the subject twn themselves. When the separation move­ on 20th May, 1892. It was then stated that ment was commenced here, Dr. Lang held a what Lord Knutsf0rd had •:>id to the Central meeting in Brisbane in November, 1851, which delegates should open the eyes of some of our was largely attended, and a motion was carried prominent politicians, who affected to believe that separation from J'\ew South ·wales was that, while the Northern division was en· desirable. When Dr. Lang visited the district titled to territorial separation, Central Queens­ ir; 1845, they would not listen to anything of the land must ever remain an integral part lnnd when he suggested it, but when he came back of the colony of Queensland. The Cou1·ier in 1851 they signed a petition almost immediately, said that had never been their contention, as drawn up by him. The population of they believed that almost precisely the same at that time was 10,396. During the time the Con­ arguments applied in each case. '!:he climatic stitution Bill was passing through Committee in and social distinctions were just as diverse in the the Sydney Legislative C0uncil-it was mainly one case as in the other. In Rockhampton there drafted by Mr. \V. C. Wentworth, while the was as little sympathy with Brisbane as there separation movement was proceeding here-a was in Townsville with Bri~bane,.and there was clause was inserted in the Bill that no separa­ as much sympathy between Rockhampton and tion or alteration of the boundaries of New Townsville as in either. The desire for local South Wales should take place at any time autonomy was as paramount in the Central dis­ without the consent of the Parliament of the trict as in the Northern, and though the colony concerned, expressed in some legislative agitation was stronger in Rockhampton and enactment. Hon. members may imagine how Townsville, which expected to obtain greatM that was received in Brisbane, when the news importance from being capital cities, the feel­ arrived here that the people of Sydney were ing was also strong in the inland centres. attempting by that means to deprive them of On the 30th of the same month the same their right tu claim sepadttion from the Imperial journal expres~ed the opinion that the question authorities. A great public meeting was held could be settled by a short Act of two or three in Brisbane, a petition against it was sent to the clauses, which could be jpassed through the New South Wales Parliament, and eventually the House of Commons in an hour if a favourable objectionable clause was thrown out. In the time were chosen, unless the Queensland Parlia­ meantime a communic21tion had been sent to ment, within a reasonable time, showed its England to Earl Grey, the then Secretary of ":illingness to create a working system of pro­ State for the Colonies, signed by certain members vmcial autonomy. After the elimination of of the Council in Sydney; and in his reply he Central Queensland from the Constitution Bill, said that no colonial legislature possessed power which then became a Bill for the formation of two to control the Imperial Parliament, or to limit provinces only, the Bill itself was rejected by the and determine the boundaries of colonies which Upper House. Then our London committee, belonged to . It will thus be seen with our delegate, Mr. Archer, approached th~t the people of Moreton Bay at that time Lord Ripon, who replied that he acknowledged obJected to any colonial Parliament taking up the strength of our case, but would await the the position of saying whether separation should result of the elections that were about to take take place or not. But circumstances alter cases place in Queensland-mei\ning, I suppose, that and now we find that the people of Souther~ he would wait to see whether the people of Queensland are doing the very thing that they Central Queensland were fairly unanimous on protested so strongly and so successfully against the subject. Hon. members will bear in mind in those days. It only shows how people can that the only part referred to was Central forget the strongest lessons when prejudice Queensland. TheN orth was not mentioned at all. or the love of power of any kind comes in and influences their decision. Sir S. W. The PREMIER: Nor the South either. Griflith knew that the consent of this Parlia­ . Mr. CURTIS: He was speaking to a deputa­ ment was not necessary when he warned the tion representing the Central cli vision of the Southern mtmbers that if they did not give colony, and h_e wanted to see whether the people what was justly due to the people of Central and were really m. earnest or not. The result of N m·thern Queensland a greater power would that election is that the people of Central take it out of their hands. If the consent of the Quee1_1sland have. put i~ on record that they are Parliament of the mother colony was necessary, practw;:ll:r unammous m favour of territorial no such thing M separation could ever take separatJ~m, and we are now in a position to give place. It is certain that if the consent of the Lord R1pon the assurance he required on that Parliament of New South Wales had been point. Every candidate who came forward was necessary what is now Queensland would still pledged to territorial separation, with the ex­ be a part of New South \Vales under what ception of one, and he was beaten. That in was then termed the selfish domination of itself was a su:fficien t proof of the feeling that Sydney. It is only by comJ•arison that we can pervades the mind of the people of Central judge of our position as to whether we are able Queensland on the subject. to stand and walk alone, without any support from the South on the one hand and the North Mr. CORFIELD: I was not pledged to terri­ on the other. In 1851, when the petition to torial separation. which I referred was drawn up, there were Mr. CURTIS: And now we come here, not 10,396 people here, sheep 1,430,000, cattle 175,000, to prove our case to this colonial Parliament horses 6,000, and pigs 2,000. In 1861, a year but to challenge its opinion as to whether th~ after separation, the population was only 28,000, proposed separation is desirable or not. That is the revenue £182,317, the expenditure £161,000, all we want now. I know it is the opinion of with exports £523,477, and imports £742,823. Southern 1~oliticians that no separation can Next year the Estimates showed an expected eventuate w1thout the consent of this Parliament. revenue of £182,200, and an expenditure of But that, to my mind, is absurd, in face of the £193,663. In the evidence given by Sir F. many examples we have in history to the con­ Napier Broome, before a Select Committee of trary. There is no example in history of a mother the House of Commons, on the Constitutio11 Bill colony parting with her younger coiony without for Western , he gave some statistics 508 Central Separation. [ASSEMBLY.] Central Sepamtion. with regard to that colony in the year 1890. population as Southern Queensland. The local The population was 40,000; exports, £680,000; revenue is kept separately, and is supposed to revenll.E', £382,000; and expenditure, £386,000. represent the actual collections under various Now we come to Central Queensland, and we headings for the different districts, but the will see by the comparison how well able Central general revenue is not kept in such a way as to, Queensland is to stand and W(Llk alone. We have enable us to say how much is actually con­ 230,000 square miles of country, or three or tributed by each division of the colony. The four times as big as Victoria, and as big as return is divided bv the total population of I do not know how many American State> or the colony, and the resulting quotient is multi­ States of the Union. Our population i> 50,000; plied by the population of each district, and the exports for the year ending in Dec•"mber last that amount is taken as the contribution of each £2,713,116, or about £54 per head of the popula­ division to the general revenue. \Ve object to tion. The figures show an increase of £500,000 in that, because it is a fair assumption that the the exports of Central Queensland upon the re­ ratio which the arrount of local revenue contri­ turns for last year; and in this connection it must buteu by Central Queensland bears to the total be borne in mind that the output of golu was loeal revenue of the whole colony is the same as diminishing all the time, while exports more the proportion of its contribution to the general durable and more beneficial to the community revenue tn the total general reYenue of the were increasing all the time. Our direct imports colony. The estimate is approximate, of course; were £417,116, and our estimate of tranship­ but we assume that we are entitled to a very ments from Brisbane is £208,558, or .£625,674 much larger contribution to general revenue altogether. Our revenue was £'159,060. 'vVe do than we get credit for in the returns. not take that as a correct return of our re­ Then there are, of course, the Customs duties, venue, and I shall have something more to say and our calculation with regard to them, based about that later on. Our expenditure w;ts upon very careful inquiries at Rockhampton £619,000, showing a ,;urplus of £140,000. We and elsewhere, is that we should get 60 per cent. have 55() miles of railway paying a net return of more than we are credited with. If our assnmp­ £i 6s. fid. per cent., and our gre~Lt trunk tion with regard to general revenue is correct, line is worth a good deal more than its and we were collecting our own revenue, we actual cost, and worth, probably, the whole would have a great deal more than we are now of our public debt. In a few words, we credited with, and instead of having a surplus have a fourth of the trade of the colony, and of £140,000, as the retnrns show, we would only one-seventh of the representation in this have something like £290,000 to our credit. House. I want to ma.ke it distinctly clear that There is the proceeds of forced sales of land by we base our claims to ,elf-government much auction, to which we greatly object. The land le•s upon our grievances, whatever they may be, is ours ; at all events, the money received than upon our natural inherent and unalienable for it should have been made available for right as a community of free British people ; and the extension of settlement in Central Queens­ as such a community we demand that right ; land, and not elsewhere. That was the prin­ we do not come here to ask it as a favour, ciple of the Financial Districts Bill of 1887, as but as a right. To show you that when the may be seen from a speech delivered by Sir separation of this territory took . place from on the 2Gth September, 1889, New South Wales it was never for a moment on the subject of tbe returns, so far as Northern intended by the Imperial authorities that this Queensland was concerned. The hon. gentleman vast territory should for ever remain subject to explained that the accounts were· kept in such a the domination of the few people in this end way as to show the general revenue of the whole of the colony, or that they should hold it in colony and the receipts on account of the po.rpetuity to do as they liked with, I have only districts, on the one hand; and on the other to say that that is opposed to all precedent of the the general expenditure relating to the whole policy of Great Britain, whose scheme of coloni-a­ colony, and the expenditure relating to the tion has all along been to divide her large and different districts, so that insteau of there being unmanageable colonies as from time to time has only one balance-sheet the1·e were four-one appeared neces,.ary through the spread of popu­ relating to the general account, and three to lation and settlement. The Duke of Newcastle the different districts. The returns kept in that wrote to Sir Wm. Denison on the 5th August, way showed some extraordinary things, which 1859, in these terms, to show the intention of rendered it important to know the actual result the Imperial authorities on the subject-" The of the financial transactions of the year. Then Crown should possess the power of further he goe< on to point out that the net surplus subdividing the territory now erected into the on the whole transactions of the colony was colony of Queensland, and of detaching such .£11.6,800, which was made up of .£2, 719 contri­ Northern portions as may hereafter be found fit buted by the South, £407 by the Central districts, to be erected into separate colonies." And on and £113,720 by the :;'{orthern district. That, the 14th September, 1861, in a despatch to he smd, was a most unsati,factory state of Governor Bowen, of Queensl(\nd, he observed things for every part of the colony, for the that he was "not prepared to abandon, on the South as well as for the North-for the North, part of Her JYiajesty's GoYernment, the power because it appbJ.red that the surplus revenue, to deal with districts not yet settled, as the which, according to the scheme of the Bill, wishes and convenience ,,f the future settlers properly belonged to them, bad been absorbed mayrequire." 'vVe•aywedo_not come here to in paying the general liabilities of the colony. ask this Parliament as a favour to pass a resolu­ Is not that exactly what has been done with our tion in favour of what we are asking for, nor surplus revenue? Instead of being made avail­ do we come here to prove our case. Our case is able for expenditure on urgent works in Central already proved. But if we wanted any further Queensland, as was intended under that Bill, it proof of the necessity for separation, so far has come down here and been placed in the as Central Queensland is concerned, we have it bottomless pit of the Brisbane Treasury. Sir in the relnrnB, published only the other day, Samuel Gritfith went on to say that it was of the revenue and expenditure of the three most unsatisfactory to the South, because any districts of the colony, kept sep:trate in accord­ action which would resnlt in doing injustice to ance with the provisions of the Financial the North could only ha,·e the effect of embitter· Districts Bill of 1887. vVe find from those ing the feeling of one portion of the colony returns that, in respect of local revenue, we towards another, and intensifying the irrita­ contribute more than twice as much per head of tion that had for some time existed. 'rhat Central Separation. [23 AuGusT.] Central Separation. 509

is the very thing that is being done in what they have contributed, the balance would Central Queensland. 'l'he feeling of dissatis­ be very much more in their favour than it wa-;. faction and irritation, which is very strong and I ,,,ay the Centr"'l division is placed in precisely deep-seated, is being intensified. Sir Samuel the same position as the North. The 'l'reasnrer Griffith further said that out of that £11G,OOO no pointed out that the larr:e quantity of goods that less than £113,700 w:ts derived from the N ortb, went North, on which Customs duty was paid in and the greater part of that was obtained from Bri"bane, was not taken into cm1sideration at all; the excessive forced sales of land in that part of Brisbane got the full benefit of that. In 1864 the the colony, which he described as especially unfair. then member for Rockhampton called attention Is it not equally unfair to make forced sales to this very thing in Parliament, and soma sort in Central Queensland? Yet that very thing of an addre"s to the Governor was adopted, is being done now in Central Queensland. But asking that certain accounts should be kept as a he goes on to say that the Government, having check on duty-paying goods going North from got this surplus, prided themselves on being Brisbane; so that as far back a3 1804 we called splendid financiers. They said, " \V e have only attention to this abuse. I notice that Sir Samuel been in office for twelve months, and we Griffith st,.,ted in a recen't letter that no effect have already reduced the deficiency in the could be given to such a resolution without general revenue o£ the colony by £116,000. k2'islative enactment. But if there is no legis­ But how have they done it? By forced sales lative enactment on the subject, that is the fault of land in the North-which is highly improper of the majorities who have kept successive in principle." If it is highly improper in prin­ Governments in office, and not the fault of the ciple so far as the North is concerned, it people of Central Queensland. Mr. Patthon is equally improper in principle so far as the further stated that the condition of things to Central division is concerned. And Sir Samuel which I have referred would certainly carry Gri-lfith remarked on this: th9ot if it was a speci­ conviction to the minds of the people in the men of the financial ability of the Government, North that their statement was not altogether they had shown their utter incompetence to without foundation that they were contributing conduct the fin ,nces of the colony. Later on, unduly to 8Upport the South in its expenditure he s>Lid that the case was re,~lly worse than it on account of its policy of centralisation. :Every appeared by the return, becc,use in the return all word the hon. gentleman then said with reference the Customs re\·enue collected in the Southern to the North applie' with greater force to Central division-including the Customs revenue on QnemJSland at the present time. 'rhe Minister goods re-exported coastwise to the North-was for "Works, the late Hon. J. M. J',iacrossan, on credited to the South; and they did not know the same occasion said he believed that the only exactly how much of that should be credited remedy for maladministration of revenue, espe­ to the North. That is the very thing we cially in the North, wail separation; that no have to complain about, and the conGmnption of matter what Government was in power, as long dutiable goods re-exported from Brisbane is as the present system of government prevailed, much larger in Central Queensland than it is in there must be malaclministration of revenue. the North, where they avail them3elves to a He also stated that the case stood actually a great much larger extent of the Br1tish India service de,,] worse than the figures showed. Mr. Philp, than we do. Sir Samuel Griffith further con­ one of the members for Townsville, spoke later tended that, in the interests of all parts of the on in the discussion, and, referring to the alloca­ eolony "'like, it was very important that this tion of the deficiency between general revenue state of things-that is, forced sales of land­ and general expenditure, asked, " How are the should not becontinned, because they were forging figures arrived at?" weapons, whether intentionally or not, in favour The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. R. of separation. ThEn he concludes by saying- Philp): That was about Northern separation, " It is the duty of the Government and of the not Central ;ceparation. Colonial Treasurer, who has charge of the finances of the Government, to keep within their grasp the manner Mr. CURT IS: It is in reference to the Finan­ in which the money has been raised and the way in cial Districts Bill, which I mn speaking of. The which it is exp0nded, so that no injustice of this kind may bt.: done. If that is not done we shall certainly hon. gentleman ;aid he found that the pro­ increase very seriously the difficulties between the portion of deficiency in the s.mth on general different parts of the colony, and we shnJl decrease the account was at the rate of 16s. per heti.d. In good feeling which, I think, generally exists at pl'esent. the Central district it was at the rate of 23s. From the point of vit:.w ol those who do not believe in per heaJ, w bile in the North it was 24s. Gd. separation we are doing the very worst thing which can per head. Then the hon. member went on to be done by those who wish that this colony should continue one and undivided." say that, when the question was decentrah sation against territorial separation, he was If there is anything that has intensified the always in favour of the latter; but, as it feeling in Central Queensland in favour of terri­ was a qne;tion of decentralisation or no torial separation, it is these forced sales of land. decentralisation and a continued robbing of the The then Treasurer, Mr. Pattison, followed North by the Sontq, they must accept decentrali­ Sir Samuel Griffith, and said the latter was Bcttion in preference to being robbed. I do not perfectly right, so that the Opposition and the know whether "robbed" is the proper term; but Government were at one on this matter. The if so, then we are being robbed. Then he said, in Treasurer said that in going through the tables, regard to decentralisation, that he did not take it which he had done carefully, he could fully as a permanent solution of the difficulty, but it understand the objection of many Northern wa• better the Bill should be accepted until they members th9ot the North was being pilfered for could obtain territorial separation. lVIr. Cowley the benefit of the South. If "pilfered" is a said he sincerely hoped the Government would proper term to use, then Central Queensland is not sell much more land in the North until being pilfered for the benefit of the South. The the Decentralisation Bill was passed, and the Treasurer further said that to some extent he North got full credit for those sales. The had always believed that the North paid more Government could sell as much land as they than their fair proportion of the taxation of pleased, and the North was simply credited the colony; they were the largest consumers with it in the books, but received no tan­ of dutiaole g·oods, and the table did not, he gible results from it. It all went into the contended, properly represent the amount they general revenue, and was sw,.,llowed up. \Vhen had contributed to the re,'enue of the colony, but they had passed the Decentralisation Bill, that, if we had the means of showing accurately they would get the full value of the revenue 510 Central Separation. [ASSEMBLY.] Central Separation.

obtained from the North; bnt at that time the contains from 50,000 to 60,000 square miles, or Government could sell £500,000 worth of land about one-fifth of the area of the Northern divi­ in the North, and it would all be swallowed up sion of Queensland. Dr. Lang reirarked that, in the general revenne. The sooner the Bill was when the State of Texas applied for admission passed, the sooner the North would be satisfied ; into the Union, Congress would not consent until but it would not be completely satisfied, because she had submitted to a proviso allowing her terri­ nothing but separation would el'entually satisfy tory to he divided into four States at some future the North. I make these references to strengthen time as population required. One of the greatest the assertion I made that the accounts kept of American Presidents said that no separate com­ separate in accordance with the proposed Decen­ munity of people deprived of a legislature could tralisation Bill are not fair to the Centre or the be weli governed, no matter how carefully re­ North, for we do not get credit for Customs presentatives might be selected. Human nature duties; and I do not believe the general revenue would have to be changed before a distant Parlia­ is fairly apportioned. Then I quote Sir S. vV. ment would legislate well and wisely for distant Griffith in support of the protest I made here, communities. They would look after themselves while the Financial Statement was under dis· and people living in remote places would, as cusskn, on behalf of the people of Central a matter of course, be somewhat neglected. Queensland against the sale of their land--the The wants of the district are either not ~tscer­ very thing that Sir S. W. Griffith denounced as tained, or, if ascertained, are not attended to. wrong and unjust in principle. We must bear in That is our experience. There are many im­ mind that, according to the spirit and intention portant things which require to be done in the of that Bill, the surplus balances were to be Central district. I may mention one. Yeitrs available for expenditure in the division which ago the Railway Commissioners recommended contributed the money, and not elsewhere. If strongly the connection of the great Central line the South or any division showed a deficit, it had and the line on the other side of the river by to make up that deficit itself, which was only a a bridge across the Fitzroy. The total cost fair thing. But we may he asked where do we would only be about £50,000 or £60,000, and get our title? My answer would be by occupa­ the construction of the connecting link would tion and settlement, just as the people of Moreton largely incre!tse the receipts on both lines, Bay acquired the right to the land in the and yet nothing has ever been done beyond Southern part of the colony-by c~ming here making the original surveys. On the other and entering into the wilderness and subduing hand, the Financial Statement recommends the it. We must also bear in mind what the Duke of expenditure of about £110,000 for Southern Newcastle said in his despatches before and after railway works. I admit that some of that work separation took place-namely, at some future is abst1lutely neces>ary, such as the replacing the time the colonies might be divided in accordance bridges destroyed by the floods; but the com­ with the wishes and convenience of the future plaint is that when money i'l wanted in the South settlers of territory that was then unsettled. it is always to be had, but when we want We are those people. I recollect reading a speech money we cannot get it. The proposed tripartite delivered by Dr. Lang in the Le!;'islative Council division of the colony is no new idea, as the late of New South \Vales, in support of the separa­ .Sir Thomas JI.Iitchell, Surveyor-General for New tion of Port Phillip from New South Wales, in South Wales, when he made his trip through which he said that the system under which the tropical Australia, said that in time Dawes people of Port Phillip were controlled was Range would form a natural boundary for a new nothing more than a despotism. If that is so, colony, for which he suggested the name of Capri­ this is a greater despotiem. Dr. Lang is cornia. He further said that at some future an authority to be listened to, because it time another colony would be cre~ted to the north was mainly through his efforts that Queens­ of that, and including the Gulf country, for which land obtained separation from New South he suggested the name of Australindia. Dr. Lang, Wales; and he denounced the sale of Port however, thought that Carpentaria was a more Phillip lands and the placing 0f the pro­ suitable name, and said that any sensible man ceeds in the New South Wales Treasury as a in any part of the would at ~nee know where downright robbery. If it were a robbery in that Capricornia and C11rpentaria were. Dr. Lang case, it is a robbery in this. In asking the took notice of our original separation movement, Imperial authorities to divide Queensland, we started in Rockhampton in 1866, and stated that are not asking anything unusual or unconstitu­ those people were justly entitled to separation. He tional; we are only asking them to do what they said that separation should be granted in view of have done over and over again. 'rhe universal the experience of the evils of centralisation in pra-ctice may be inferred from the fact that the Sydney, in the cases of Port Phillip and Moreton original American States were divided from time Bay. ~He pointed out also that even at that to time until finally there were thirteen colonies time the people of Central Queensland were in a carved out of them, which eventually obtained more advanced position in every respect than their independence. In connection with that, Moreton Bay had been at the date of "separation Dr. Lang said it was taken for granted on all from New South Wales. I wish now to refer to hands, so far as the American colonies were the testimony of a disinterested observer-the lady concerned, that when separate settlements sprung who visited Central and Northern Queensland, up, and distinct communities sprung up here and as well as other parts of this contmPnt, as there, those people should be supplied with the the special correspondent of the :l'imes. Her means of self-government-their natural and in­ testimony may be considered to have more herent right. \Ve know what America has done weight on this question than my own, as I may with regard to the division of territory and t.he be looked upon as an interested party. [The creation of small compact States since the hon. member here read an article'pointing out establishment of a federal republic. They had that Brisbane, in the extreme south-east corner to undo some of the blunders of the British of the colony, was as distant from the far Government, and to readjust boundaries, which North as London was from ; whilst will have to be done here some day. The origiual it took as long to communicate with those thirteen colonies now include about twenty-two places as it took to communicate between States; in addition to the;;e, twenty-two other London and South Africa; that the diversity States have been carved out of the territories. of climate and other conditions of life formed America had set the world a great example in a claim for separation ; that Queensland was dividing territory and creating fresh States. The three times the size of France, and if it were beau ideal of a State, so far as si~e is concerned, divided into three parts the Southern division Central Sepa-ration. [23 AuGusT.] Central Separation. 511

would contain an area of 190,000 square miles, the the settlement of the public debt. ·we have no Central division 223,000 square miles, and the authority to do so, and I apprehend that, if Northern 2.15,000 square miles; that the popula­ the Imperial Government once conclu

do not take into conBideration that we have a tributed by the Southern division of the larger revenue than when they started business colony. Then, with regard to our land, I pro­ in 1859; and perhaps they do not recollect test again against these forced sales. The that we already pay a large Civil Service staff, very eyes of the country are being picked out and that the duties we have bee.n deprived of because they are readily saleable, and, by-and­ would alone go a long way towards p

not to agree. That some of the United States that at that time the railwav went out from have been divided in that way has no bearing Rockhampton only as far as \Vestwood; and as whatever on this question, and no bearing what­ soon as the arrangements made by Sir Arthur ever on the hon. member's proposition, giving an Palmer resulted in that railway going out offshoot of a colony an inherent right to sub­ beyond the l'Jxpedition Range, all that feeling division. I wonder the hon. member had the vanished ; the people there made up their minds hardihood to make such statements, considering to cast in their lot with us, and un to the year what took place in 1860 and subsequent years. 1890 they deliberately did so. They worked Does he not know that the greatest war of with us, becoming responsible with us for the modern times was caused by the fact that the legii•lation up to that time; and they are bound people of a great nation would not allow those with us by all codes of honour in the responsi­ in a part of their territory to set themselves up bility for that legislation. The hon. member as a separate State or nation? has told us the first Bill dealing with financial Mr. HARDING: They were going out of the separation was in 1877 read a first time ; but Union. I think it was only printed. At all events, The PREMIER: What is this but going out no actual legislation took place ; and during of the union? \Ve are the union as Queensland, the rest of the seventies even Northern and the case is exactly analogous. That great members did not agitate about separation. war was fought for the purpose of keeping the Bnt about the middle of the eighties-at the end country together, and that is the sort of war that of 1833-some of the Northern members were will be here. particularly lively; and in London in 1885 a strong agitation was got up for separation. That was Mr. HARDING: The sooner the better. the time when the agitation for Northern separa­ The SPEAKER : Order ! ticn commenced; it was at that time that it The PREMIER : The hon. member is awfully was brought before Parliament, and we felt it noisy, and excessively ignorant. If his inter­ strongly in politics in the House. But the jections were to the point, would assist the Central members were then perfectly quiet; we speaker, or assist the House in understanding never heard anything from them about separa­ his argument, there would be no obj. ctiou to tion ; they made no protest in the House that them; bnt the hon. member is bellowing out they were not included in the proposed separa­ noise which, in justice to the Honse, he should tion. They complacently allowed themselves to be keep to himself. We listened patiently to the last counted in as part of the South, and the whole member who spoke ; and, though I do not object agitation until 1890 was for the separation of to interjections which are intelligent, I draw a the North from the South, leaving the Central distinction between ordinary interjections and division as part of the South. The Central mere bellowing. The hon. member for Rock­ members kept perfectly quiet all that time, and hampton tried to give us the history of separa­ were members of Ministries, where they had great tion ; and it was a very necessary thing to do, power and influence. During the time the hon. and a very delicate point for the hon. member, member for Rockhampton, l\fr. Archer, was my because we who know the real history of separa­ colleague, and occupied the important position tion in the colony knew that the hon. member of Colonial Treasurer, I never heard him breathe had to account for the extraordinary liveliness a word to the Cabinet or myself about Central of the question since 1890 and the utter quiet separation. Mr. Pattison, another Treasurer, of Central members during manv previous was also a representative of Rockhampton, and years. I will not go so far back "as the hon. Mr. Buz:tcott, who acted for me as Treasurer while member, but there was a great agitation in I was in Enghud, was also regarded as a represen­ 1870 for separation. The separation meant tative of the Central district, though at that time at that time was that projected by the old he had been put out of the representation of Rock­ Surveyor-General of New South Wales, an hampton. There were three Treasurers during that accomplished man, whom we all honour for his epoch who rejJresented the Central district, and explorations. That was for thfl separation of the I never heard from them all that time of any South of Queensland from the North at DaweR agitation with reference to Central separation as Range. That separation included the whole of a lively piece of work for our politicians. The the north of Dawes Range up to the Gulf of first that we heard of it was through the turmoil Carpentaria and Cape Y urk. That ~eparation that took place in politics during the year 1890. was very strongly acl-:ocated by the member for Parties got so mixed up in that turmoil that Rockhampton at the tune, Mr. Palm er, though he nobody knows even now where they were; but was Premier of the colony. In' 187:l the agitation some curious things came out of it, and among wns very strong; in 1873 it was dead, and it them was the agitation for Central separation. remained as dead as the roses that perished \Ve never beard. of it before, and the state­ in 1872 until 1890. During all these years ment made by the hon. member who moved not a single Central member agitated for this motion-that his efforts and the represen­ separation, nor did they ask even for financial tations which have been made to the home separation. In 1876 I and some other Southern authorities were not new, but were simply members took up the question of financial carrying out the principles advocttted from 1884 separation, instigated not by the Central mem­ down to the present time-is absolutely without bers, who took no interest whatever in the foundation. It is a new idea altogether-this subject, but by the Northern members, who had idea of splitting up a colony that IS going on commenced to take an interest in separation. fairly well at the present time, and, if carried Let the hon. member understand that the out, would be to the detriment of the two progeny he is now bringing forward is not the colonies on either side of the Central colony, separation of 1872, nor is it the lineal descendant and very much to the detriment of the colony of that separation, or anything like it. In 1876 that now wants separation. I have now given a commission sat for the purpose of inquiring the history of this agitation, and shown that the into the subject of financial separation, owing advocates can claim no merit from antiquity­ to certain inquiries made as to the disposal of the that they cannot affirm that they have held this revenue. The North by this time had come to !Jrinciple and stuck to it for a long time. As a be recognised as commencing at a point a great matter of fact, the quest.ion entered into active deal north of Rockhampton, and Rockhampton politics about the year 1890, and not before. The had settled down as a part of the South. \Vhy hon. member claims separation as an inherent did separation in Rockhampton, so lively in right. Of course, when he says it is an inherent 1872, die in 1873 ? You have only to remember right, he means for any district in the colony. 1893-2K 514 Central Separation. [ASSEMBLY.] Central Sepm·ation.

The districts shown on the map at the present are very different. When we were drawing up time-the Northern, Central, and Southern dis­ the report in 1877, the contribution of the South trictR-are a mere accident. They were made to the pastoral rents was £81,919; of the Central, by Sir Arthur Palmer in 1872. At any rate, I £55,078; and of the North, £19,197. But lttthe have traced them back to him, and I do not present time £125,202 is deriv<>d from the South, find any reference to them further back. Re ot:131,632 from the Central, and £79,018 from the made the present divisions, with certain small North. The hon. me1nber says, "We made the variations. The bon. member is wrong in saying country, and we ought to enjoy the fruits of it; we that in the whole history cf the question there want it to oursel ve;o." I think the pastoral rents were only three divisions. There were three ought to be considered genemlrevenne. \Vho ex­ in Sir Arthur Palmer', Bill of 1872, but four plored that land, and spent capital and energy of were recommended in the report of the finan­ body and mind in workingit? \VasitRockhampton cial districts committee, brought up in 1877. men? It was the Queensland people. I could take six The Wide Bay and Burnett district was a men from the Darling Downs and locrrl distl"icts district in itseif. How the exact bounrlaries who hav,, done more than the whole of Rock­ of the present divisions came to be made on hampton in exploring that land, and I do not see the maps is a mystery, but I believe it was done why it should be monopolised by the Central by some clerks in the Crown Law Offices, in people, who claim the land revenue of the whole order to suit the provisions of the Local Regis· of this territory that they have no more to do tries Act. That is the only authority for it, ~tnd with than I have at the present time. I was in­ hon. members must not run away with the ide~t vited by the laws of the country to take up land, that it has the authority of any Parliament and I am no absentee bec3.use l live in Brisbane. or any Government. The Decentralisation Bnt the hon. member wants to make me an o,bsen­ Bill has the authority of some Governments, so tee by dra.wing a line on this side of Dawes far that they introduced the Bill, but none Range. I have bought lands of the country and of them carried it beyond the first reading, for have developed the country, and have as much the simple reason that the House felt it was not interest in the country as the hon. member, even competent to deal with the subject. Nor do I though he attend his office at .Rockbampton think it is competent at the present time. I every day in the week. The argument is un­ have followed the history of financial separation answerable that the land revenue should be becausP until now we have had no question of considered general, for the reason that it is not Central territorial ser 'aration brought prominently produced by the enterprise and capital of the before the House. It is most unjust for an hon. people who want to monopolise the land. member to say that the scheme of decentrali­ sation is a scheme of the present or any previous Mr. HARDACRE: The district you are Government; and that it is a bad scheme, which speaking of has returned men favourable to the Central district would not have at all if they separation. could manage it othenv ise. The figure" supplied The HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD: 'rhat does on the basis of the :Financial Districts Bill have not affect the argument. always been given, not as Government figures, The PREMIER : I will go further, and say but in reJ,Iy to a r quest of a Northern member that this has heen actually leading to the aggran­ that certain information should be furnished the disement of the Central districts upon paper; House, according to the schedule of certain Bills. because, as a matter of fact, these rents have The Government have nothing whatever to do gone into the general revenue, and it is only in with those Bills, but have simply furnished the the accounts that it is shown. The hon. member information that wac, wanted. They were re8pon­ wants to make out that for the future these rents sible for the accmac,v of that information, but not ought to be collected by the Central district. In for the principle on which the accounts were made order that hon. members may follow my ideas up, so that any hon. member can make objection to better, I will take an aren of 40,000 or 50,000 the principle, but he must not blame the Govern­ SCJUare miles of land in the Central district, and ment, because the Government never fathered it. trace a lin0 down 200 miles of that district, I 11gree with the hon. gentleman that when we the people in which do business with the come to examine into them, a great n1:my fault~ Northern division; and you can also trace a line are to be found. I have found m~tny myself, and where the Central business interest goes right hope I shall be able to show that a better solu­ into t,he Southern district. I can show cases tion of the difficulty can be found than that where the Central busine,s goes down South, sugge•,ted by the hon. member. The division of and I wish them every prnsperity in their trade the colony that was made by the Bills I have and do not grudge it. Does the hon. member spoken of, :tnd the principle upon which revenue propose to draw a line and put np Custom-houses, and expenditure should be divided, generally and and then draft a Railway Tariff Bill, such,,,, we locally, were adopted atatimewhen the colony was passed the other day, and force traffc that in a very difccult position. At the time Sir A1·thur should go to Tnwnsville on to his particular line ? Palmer made his division there were some 50,000 Is that a fair or just thing; will it lead to what square miles of country in the Central district the hon. member calls neighbourly association? upon which nobody had ever trod except ex­ I do not think it is likely to do that. plorers, and very few of them. \Vhen the matter of pastoral rents was considered, we took it for Mr. CURTIS: We do not want border dues. granted that it was a fair thing to give the The HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD: Not in the pas·oral rents to the district in which they were meantime. . raived. That seemed reasonable enough, especi- The PREMIER: Ishallspeakabout the border ally as there was not m nch inequality. In the duties a little by-and-by. This is the way that South the quantity of land taken up was very they mean to get business. The fact of the matter great; there was only about one-fourth of the~t is that the Central district is simply a valley in quantity in the Central district, and a great deal which the big Central Raih,ay line has been less in theNorth; so that in the financiHI commis­ m~tde, and they mean to claim the whole of the sion of which I was a member, the question as to rlirect advantages from that for themselves. whether thbsh

though I like the people there just as well as I like are deprived of the money in the meantime. I the people in the South, I must saythatinever saw shall take this question exactly as I have dealt anything to show that they were better than we with the pastoral rents. When the keepmg are down here. I never thought myself a better of accounts on the basis of financial separation man when I stopped there for three months. I was initiated in 1876, the Land Act of 1876 will show that this industry which they wish to had not come into operation, and land sales have attributed to them altogether is due to a had only taken place under the Act of 1868. It different ca,u;;e. I think I have shown that they was laid down then as a. f1sition taken up by Sir years ago have assisted the Government m giving Henry Holland, who could see perfectly well them a port down at Lheir own bay ; but they that the po.,ition of the different colonies would have allowed the interests of the Central district have to be considered, and that the question was and of Hockhampton to be coerced hy a noisy one that could not possibly be Rettled without mob that sometimes influences the elections, and the consent of the parties most interested. He which the members for Rockhampton have not admits that those rights are only latent rights, shown the grit to face. It will be interesting an! r.e s:1ys the Government had made up their now to refer to the question of land 'iales. I mind not to insist upon those rights. Then notice that the hnn. gentleman very cunningly the Central separationist:; went one better. contrived to catch the applause of his friE·nds They discovered another Act by which they on the left, who are ready to shout their proved conclusively to themselves -and put the approval of anything said in dis.>pproval of argument before the present Secretary of land sales; but he did not denounce the sale State, Lord Ripon- that not only had the of land. "What he i!enounced was that the Government a right to do it, but, on the petition receipts from land sales go into the general of the people who wanted to be separated, they revenue-or, at least, that the Central districts were bound to do it because there was an 516 Central Separation. [ASSEMBLY.] Central Separatio'}f,. inherent right of separation in themselves. The immediate vote o! the Imperial Parliament. This, people whom they were going to sepamte from gentlemen, is the conclusion to which I have been were not consulted, whether on the one side nor forced to come. I shall watch the result of that general election with the greate~t interest." on the other, although they also have certain inherent rights, and rights which Lord Ripon In making thes" statements he does not refer at and other men of common sense in England will all to what the result of the retmn of the Central consider it proper to give due weight to. I will members would be. He takes a much wider rear! a few words from the reply of Sir Henry view, and that is as to what the result of the Holland to the Northern deputation; they will general election would be for the whole colony. sene at the Hame time as a reply to some of the Of course, what the Central memhers might say arguments that have been used to-day by the on the matter will interest him, but only in the hon. member for Rockhampton. He said-· same way as he will be interested by what other members may say. The opinion he expresses is "We are advised that it would be competent for the simply that the Imperial Government tell us we Imperial Parliament to pass an Act for the division of the colony ; but in our opinion it would be very difficult, are -1uite competent to manage our own affairs, and if not undesirable, for Her Majesty's Government to tbat, unless an overwhelming case of oppression adopt any such course until we had before us either of one part of the colony by another part is some resolution, or address, or Bill yassed by the legisla­ proved to force them tu interfere, they will leave ture of the colony, or unless, perhaps, some overwhelming the management of the colony to ourselves. case were made out which would justify such an inter­ That is the conclusion I draw from the answers ference. I cannot ~1dmit there is an exact parallel between the present case and the case of :J.Ioreton Hay, because given both by Lord Knutsford and the Marquis in the latter case a special power was reserved to the of llipon. Now I come back to the financial Imperial Government to make the separation which was question made so much of by the hon. member, sub~equently found necessary, whereas we are asked in and I will preface my present remarks by a the present case to exercise a latent power, a power the reference to what was said by Sir Charles exercise of \Vhich would be viewed with jealousy in all Nicholson in introducing the deputation. Sir the large colonic~. and a power which of late years we have never exercised. There is no instance of recent Charles Nicholson is a man of nndonbted years, since the colonies attained the greatness they integrity, and one for whom everyone who have, of the Imperial legislature passing an Act inter­ knows him has the highest respect. He fering with the administration of one of those great said the revenues of the Northern and Central colonies, except at the request of tbe colonial Govern­ divisions had been most unfairly appropnated ment. 'fherefore I say it is difficult, if not undesirable, to deal with such a question as this unless we have the by the Southern division. That was a matter authority, on a desire expressed on the part of the of evidence, and an agitation had long since colonialleg-ishtture. or unle~s there is 80me case made been raised to establish a distinct autonomy in out which is absolutely overwhelming." the three divisions, each of which was as large I have made this digression because it is more as a European kingdom. That is where Sir convenient to do so before referring to the finan­ Charles Nicholson, a large landed proprietor at cial aspect of the question. I will now finish Rockhampton, e'sentially failed to see the gist this part of the subject. by referring to the of the whole matter, taking for granted what an,wer given by Lord ltipon to the deputation the Central members told him- that the headed by the hon. member for Rockhampton, Central di visi•m was financially oppressed by Mr. Archt'l'. He says- the South. It is to dispel that illu,;ion that the principal part of my speech has been and will " I know that this is not a satisfactory statement to be made. To return to the decentralisation you, attd that the conclusion I have thrown out will not give you immediate satisfaction. But I do draw accounts, the hon. member for Rockhampton from that fact the conclusion that it would be im­ disagrees with the woty in which the general proper on the part of Her ~Iajesty's Government not to revenue has been appropriated. He disagrees wait, before taking any independent action in the altogether with the principles on which the n1atter, until the re~mlt of the ge-neral election is so-called Decentralisation Bills have been founded. made known. I do not refer merely to the number of persons returned, but to the course which He says certain amounts have been put to general they might take next session. I myself feel that we account which ought to have been made local, should be departing from that line which ought to showing at the same time the weakness of the guide the conduct of the Colonial Oflice in respect to principle upon which we have been making self-governing colonies, if we were to determine this up the accounts. At the time these accounts matter without waiting for the result of the general were made general or local, as the case might election, turning, as I imagine it will, mainly upon this very rtnestion. without any reference to what the result be, by the Commission sitting in 1877, we ot that general election might be." did not know as much of matters as we do now; and the hon. member, in making up his That is an interesting paragraph, because Lord accounts by which the South is brought in so Ripon evidently thinks it was the great question much in debt to the Central division, has not at that time. He is wrong there, because it is looked to the state of things at the present time. quite a subordinate question to a great many Putting down to local revenue what is now put very much more important matters that the down to general revenue, I will show by one House has before it now. He goes on to say- example how that would act at the present time. " The case which you have brought before me may Take one of the largest items of what is called be perfectly right, but my experience of general elec­ "iYiiscellaneous Services," for which the total tions is that even those who should know what the result amount is £144,445. There is £103,734 of that should be are not always accurate, and therefore I cannot take this statement from one side." amount coming from interest on the public balances and interest on loans to local bodies. He is quite right there. The amount per capita of this sum credited HI am bound to look at the result of the elections, to the Central district is £12,208, while the and the express;cd intentions of the colony on this actual contribution by the district is only £1,550 question. I do not mean to ~ay that Her ::\Iajesty's Go­ on account of interest in the public balances, and vernment would be exclusivel.v guided by the COlll'se which the legislature ma:v take, or that, if the results £5,334 on account of interest on loans to local whkh the deputation rmtiCipated should arise, the Go­ bodies ; so that, instead of the South getting the vernm<"'nt would be debarred from taking any cour:;e better of the Central district, the position is that might be nece!'sary. All I can say is, until the quite the other way, and the North and South result of the ele,~tion is made knO\\'n to us, and until we make a present to th~ Central district of £5,324 see what the newly-elected members intend to do on on this one item alone. I take that as an behalf of the colony, it would be, I think, inconsistent with that respect which we are bound to show towards example, because the item of £103,000 is more the legislature and towards the Government of thA than two-thirds the gross amount of £144,000 colonies for us to act ab extra-that is to say, by an for these services. The rest of the amount is Central Sepa1•ation. [23 AuGUST.] Central Separatlon. 517

made up of items such as these : Stamp duty, here. Preserved fruits, pickles, and spices-all , dividend duty, postage, electric telegraphs, these, as a rule, go from here in bond, the duty graving dock, Marine Board, escort fees, fees of being paid in Rockhampton. Then there are office, fines and forfeitures; and I defy any man grain, malt, bran, hay, and chaff. Bran, chaff, to apportion those items to the different districts and bay are mostly colonial products. They do of the colony, and put them fairly right. The not come from the other colonies, and do not pay Commission had no other choice but to put them duty. There is nothing in n•ah, so that that down to general revenue; and I say that if the item is free from the taint of the duty having hon, member's contenti.m was carried out, it been paid in llrisbane and the article consumed would show thttt the Commission, in making the in the Central district. Iron, iron castings, provision they did, made the South rather tanks, and wire nails pay .£4, 769 ; and the generous, if they knew what they were doing, great bulk are imported from home. The amount and I do not think they did. The accounts for oils, chemical", soap, and starch is £8,330. the hon. member referred tn are given at There is a considerable amount of work done by considerable length in a paper printed since chemist~ here in preparing articles of perfumery notice of this debate was given. There an and the like, the duty being paid here on the accountant on behalf of the Central division wholesale article and the preparations exported has giYen his mode of increasing the accounts ; to the Central and other districts. The great and he starts .by ,,aying that, by a general item, however, is .£24,139, the duties paid on consensus of opmion on the part of the merchants ad t'alorem goods. It is in ad valorem goods of Rockhampton, 60 per cent. of the Customs that the thing is most felt. There are industries duties credited there ought to be added on for here in which certain articles paying duty in duties paid in Brisbane on goods consumed in Brisbane are used, and the Central di.trict the Central district. The hon. member used is a consumer of the articles manufactured that argument here. All the tables that were by the people engaged in those industries. submitted to Lord Ripon at this interview were There is a sort of reciprocity in all these things, made out, correcting in this respect the whole of because there is a back trade subjPct to re­ the decentralisation tables that have been put duction ; but, the bulk of the manufactures before hon. members for the last five years. Any being in Brisbane, it is reasonable to sup­ hon. member that knows anything about the busi· pose that they consume a considerable por­ n~ss done between Brisbane and Rockhampton tion of the articles on which the ad valoren~ will know that the statement that they ought duties are paid here. Hon. members will see to get credit for 60 per c•mt. of the duties paid that the total amount of duties paid in in Rockhampton is perfectly unjustified by any the Central district was .£143,000. Sixty facts, and is a great slur on the commerce of per cent. of that is .£85,000, and the hon. the place. I will say a few words now about the member asks us to believe that .£85,000 has course of trade. There are some things on which actually been paid in Brisbane as duty on goods it is to the interest of merchants to pay the which have been sent to Rockhampton. I have duties to the Government at the latest moment shown that a great portion of the consumption, they possibly can. If they can make arrange­ to the extent of nearly three-fourths of the whole, ments hy which they pay the duty on goods is of articles on which it is the custom of the trade going to Rockhampton in Rockhampton instead to pay duty in Rockhampton. I have had the of in Brisbane, they save the interest on that Customs officers going over the different manufac­ money from the time the goods are taken out of tures in the most minute way, and the opinion of bond and exported from Brisbane until they go the best men I con Id get, after going most into use in Rockhampoon; consequently, there fully into details, is that not more than between are certain articles that always pay duty in £15,000 and £20,000 is paid in Brisbane on Rockhampton. For instance, spirits sent from articles which are consumed in the Central dis­ Brisbane to Rockhampton never pay duty here, trict. The principal part of the duty paid in and that item is more than one-third of the Brisbane is ad valorem duty on goods which are duty paid in Rockhampton, or .£48,000. The shipped direct from England or other countries, great bulk goes direct from the country of export and made up into general orders for small shops, to Rockhampton, and pays duty there ; but with or for shelf goods; but the amount is Yery incon­ regard to that which goes from Brisbane to siderable. It is to the interest of everybody Rockhampton the custom is to pay the duties at to pay the duty at the port where the Rockhampton, so that there is £48,000 out on goods are taken out for consumption, and that account. I am taking the accounts pub­ the merchant shipping goods does not care lished in June, 1892, as an illustration. Wine to g1ve credit for what he pays cash. He is is in the same category. That pays duty in very anxious to avoid paying duty on articles Rockhampton. Ale, porter, sarsaparilla, and re-exported, and everything tends to the paying vinegar all pay duty there, with the exception of of the duty on goods for the Central district at a small quantity of colonial beer, and that the landing port-Rockhampton. That is done conta!ns certain ingredients scarcely worth to a great extent; and the best experts I can considering, on which the duty is paid in Bris­ get are of opinion that the amount which is bane, though the beer is consumed in the Central not so paid could not possibly be more than district. Then we have tobacco, snuff, and from .£15,000 to £20,000. I think that is an cigars, £20,000. The great bulk of that is paid over estimate, but I give the amount as under exactly in the same way ; but there is a certain .£20,000. I have taken the gmatest care in portion of the trade there again-I am •peak• seeing that every precaution was used to have ing of facts ascertained on the most reliable • the information correct, and I believe the authority by men connected with the Customs estimate of the officers of the department, whom Department, men of integrity and above all 1 have consulted, is above that of experts; and doubt; and after the most minute investigation it differs very materially from the consensus of among the different merchants and others opinion among the merchants of Rockhampton. engaged in the trade-there is a certain amount Then we have to deduct from that sum a certain of that tobacco which is made up here in a amount of trade which goes back the other way.

the difference is accounted for by the fact that a deal of information was given to Lord Ripon. I large amount of the spirits used in the Central · understand the calculations that he has made, district paod duty in the Southern district. But but I can sen no reason for them, and therefore that is not a fact. The conclusion I draw is that there is no reason why I should go against them. people in the Central district are better drinkerR He does not explain his basis or defend it, and than those in the South. If we want a thorough all I can say is that it is incapable nf being explanation of this, hon. member> will s"'e it defended. But the result is this: that in the when we go further intll the table, and f.nd tlm1; long- statistics he gives Lord Rip0n he brings the consumption of spirits in the Northern divi­ the deficiency the Central district was in, sion is 19s. 5~d. per head. I am not going to according to the accounts of 1888, from £45,634 draw the inference that the Northern men are to a surplus of £30,034. In the next year he better drinkers than the Central men, because bring-s a surplus of £407 to a surplus of I do not think th-ey are. But the inference I do £114,000, and so on, until he makes a total of draw, and it is a very important one. in the con­ £593,839. I am not afraid of these figures, sideration nf this question, is that the red line on bec':mse Lord Ripon will wony over them before the map which separates Northern from Central he underotood them, and he will understand Queensland ha~ Lee.n drawn wrong, a11d that a them before he gives any decision in the matter. great part of the spirits which have ]Jaid duty I never saw anything more absurd suggested, and in the North has come down to the Central shall not take up the time of the House by going district. I know the Northern and Central into the matter, because it ought to be proved districts ; t.hey are pretty homogeneous, and before.we debate it. We have heard a great deal I do not think you can say that one lot are about import,; and exports. The hon. member better drinkers than the other ; they all consume for Normar:;by was a much more enthusiastic ~fair share. I do not think you can possibly defender of this rJroposal last year, and told us Judge from the chamcter of the people that that we should not reckon the debt by popula­ there is a greater consumption per head in one tion at all; but I confess I can see no more district than the other, but the figures give a equitable way. He said it ought to be reckoned valuable lesson as to how the dividing line is by imports and exports. That looks very nice drawn, became they point conclusively to the on the face of it, and was particularly nice at the fact that a large trade in spirits and other things time it was said, because Monnt lYiorgan was is done by the North with the Central district. rushing out gold at the rate of £1,000,000 a year. That is an argument against the artificial line I wish to show hon. members the absurdity of which has been drawn, beca,use it shows that considering the position of the colony from the the Central are a.ppropriating what does not point of view of exports and imports. From belong to them. No man will, however, deny its nature ltockharnpton is essentially an that Townsville has a perfect dght under the law exporter. Everything it produces goes out of of this colony, as I hope it will have under any the colony and Hgures in the table. But in law that may exist while I live, to make their Southern Queensland we have manufacturers trade with any part of the Central district. and farmers, and the North has sugar-growers That certainly is the principle upon which we and fruit-growers and rice-growers. The pro­ should go, and the attempt which is made duce raised by the farmers here finds a market to cut this wedge out between the Northern in the Central district, and that trade does not and Southern districts and call it one colony count one iota in the tables of imports and exports is simply an attempt to ta-ke awo.y trade of Brisbane. The exports the hon. member refers from the North on one side, and the South to are those which go clean out of the colony­ on the other side. I have given that one item to Sydney, England, or elsewhere. The North of spirits as an illustration of the lot. As long send; thousands of tons of sugar to the Central as the figures given under the Decentralisation distric'e and the whole colony, and surely that Bill fit the hon. member, they are assumed to ought to be considered as well as wool that is be right; but as soon as he pr

is no way by which it can be done except by the Central Queensland, which, above all countrieS North, the Central, and the South agreeing that I know, depends immensely on capital among themselves, quite independent of any for its production, and where the great bulk of mandate from the British Government. If you the population are wage-earners-were I to see can get the South and the North to say, "You that country handed over to the government can separate, and we will be responsible for your of wage-earners, with ito capital· completely debts," that is all right. But the hem. member ignored, I should pity it. I know well what will have to put hi~ proposition in a very the result would be, and the hon. member different way, so that the interests of the would know it too. He has claimed before Lord North and of the South are not sacrificed to Knutsford that the whole of the capital of Cen­ the interests of the Central province. There tral Queensland, as well as the inhabitants, are is one other way by which the difficulty may be in favour of the scheme. I deny it. The pro­ got over, and that is by the British Government perty-holders have never been consulted. I give assuming the right to legislate in this matter and very little consideration to the petitions that saying, ''Very well ; we consider you ought to have been sent home and signed by different separate, and that those ought to be the line5 indivic1uals. As an example, I may take the and the terms on which you separate." \Ve petiti•m from the people of Winton, who are then rep1·esent that we are being brought in for decidedly within the Northern district, that a liability that we do not wish to undertake, they should he taken out of the Central and decline to undertake ; and uo creditor could district; upon which a counter petition was possibly refuse to admit our claim to relief when sent home for the purpose of retaining them we were forced by a superior power to accept witl1in the Central district. Anyone can see terms which we never thought of guaranteeing. how utterly useless petitions are for enabling If they put us into that position, they can only anyone at a distance to arrive at a common­ do it in one way, and that is by guaranteeing sense conclusion. One great argument for the debt themselves ; and if we wait until Central separation is that they are the greatest the British Government do that, we shall be producers in the colony ; that they send the a great deal older than we are at the present greatest amount of exports out of the colony; time. It was amusing to hear the hon. mem­ and that, being the greatest producers, they ber for Rockhampton quoting Sir Thomas ought to be included in a colony by them­ :Mitohell, the Surveyor-General of New South se! ves. But let the producers be consulted, Wales, as if he knew a great deal about the and see whether they will agree tQ a colony. He knew Mount Abundance, but I do system of gm·ernment by which they ar~ to not think he knew much abo'ut the Central or the be governed by their own workmen. Hon. Bouthern district, especially as they have de­ members know well what I am talking about, veloped in later times. I do not think we shonld and there are none more cognisant of it than give much credit to Sir Thomas Mitchell's thosehon. members to whom I have just referred. opinion on a question like this. This affects Look at the correspondence that took place people ; he only saw land ; and it affects between the Premier and the Secretary of State the interests of people most materially. I five or six year3 ago, wherein it was shown that the need not go further into details. I have mining centres of population were thoroughly followed most of the arguments used by the hon. bpposed to separation. They were the men who n:ember, and I have shown very conclusively blocked separation at that time ; they were its that what he intends to do affects the interests biggest opponents, at all events. But now we find of people quite outside the Central district, and some of the papers in theNorth and all the labour very much to their detriment. It affects the constituencies coming in after one another and North greatly by taking away the trade they have saying, " We have made a great mistake. If we made, and to which they are entitled. It affects had gone in for separation-·Northernand Central Uarpentaria by taking away their trade to which -we woul

Mr. ARCHER : I think I should congratulate way the Premier argued about the Central my friend, the hon. member for Rockhampton, Railway. He seems to think that the fact ot it Mr. Curtis, upon his able speech ; but I am quite being a paying line puts the Central district in certain the Premier has paid him a greater com­ no better position than if it wns a non-p'>ying pliment than I could by the lengthy and care­ line. He says it arises from the energy of the fully prepared speech in which he replied to him. people who have settled in the \Vestern country. It shows, at all events, that this matter is getting Of course it does; but they are settled there, and very serious, and although I cannot possibly I insist that the fact that the Central liailway occupy the time necessary to go throng h the is a paying line, and so lifts the burden of whole of the hon. gentleman's speech, I would interest on construction off the shoulders of the like to point out some things I consider are country, shows conclusively that our financial fallacies. \Ye have to thank the Government position is far better than the Premier makes it for giving us this day to discuss the matter in, out to be. The hon. gentleman Raid the Central and as 1 am exceedingly anxious to go to a members would be exceedingly pleased to see a division to-night, I will be as brief as possible. " thundering majority" against them on this There is wmething very peculiar in the way the motion. Let him try it, and if he is kind Premier spoke. He gave us a long history of the enough to come over with us and bring a few of separation movement. That history went to his followers with him, I can tell him we will show that when the Central province WLoS fairly be exceedingly obliged to him. \Ve do not want treated by the Southern members, it was con­ a "thundering majority" against us, but what we tented, but the moment it found itself less well do want is to show that, with the exception of treated, and its re[Jresentatives not given con­ the member for Gregory, the Central members sideration, the agitation for separation began are unanimously in favour of the motion. &gain. Is not that the most natural thing Mr. HAl~DACRE : He was not elected by in the world? We did not begin the agitation the people at all. without reason, but when the reasons became strong, the agitation began. It was a natural Mr. ARCHER: We are anxious to get as thing that when the Central line started from many votes as possible from both sides of the West wood it to a certain extent allayed the feeling House, but we would rather have the unani­ of irritation existing at that time. At the time mous vote of the ten Central members than to that railway was proceeded with, settlement had have some of them against the motion, and be already spread 400 or 500 miles west of J:tock­ able to replace them by three or four members hampton, and it was a matter of life and death from outside. The Premier talked of the injus­ that we should have the means of con1munication tice of the propoaal to Queensland ; but all with the \V est that the Southern people were these arguments were just as applicable to the beginning to enjoy. It is therefore perfectly separation of Queensland from New South simple to explain the reason why there has not Wales. vVe know that, with the Centre and been the same persistency the whole time with South separated, there will be as great an in­ regard to separation ; hut as soon as the people tercourse ot trade between the divisions as there do not get what they consider their rights they is between the united divisions, and that the in­ begin to ag-itate, and we are now carrying on tercourse between the Centre and the North in the the agitation in that spirit. There were some same way will be quite as great as at present. remarkable utterances by the Premier. He We go so far as to say that we will accept a asked us, among other thinge, who made. Cen­ free interchange of natural productions, and the tral Queensland? and then he said the South Northern sugar-grower will have the whole of made it. Well, who made the South ? the Central tmde. \V e are not proposing to cut Was it not made by New South Wales ? out anybody. With respect to the matter of And did not the i::louth agitate for separation ? duties, I was a party to them, as the Premier 'fhe Premier knows that a great many people says, but it was in carrying out an effort, which went to the Centml district from New South every member of this House is bound to carry \Vales, aud settled there long before the separa­ out, to make income meet expenditure ; but I am tion of Queensland from New South Wales. I extremely glad the hon. member, Mr. Curtis, has am one of a family who went to Rockhampton added that condition to his resolution, because it in 18M, and so did a great many other people. shows we wish to do nothing to injure either Is that any reason why we should not ask for South or North. One country wishing to separate separation? If it is, then the same cause would from another does not necessarily take into con­ have kept together the whole of Australia to sideration the question of doing that other country Cape York as one colony. So that there is no an injury ; but the position taken up is that it more reason for a tie existing between Central would rather do an injury to a certain extent and Southern Queensland than between Queens­ than not have its own way and the right to self­ land and New South Wales. As centres of government. The Premier said that, if we had population increase and become strong, they not been joined with the South, we in Central naturally desire their independence. There Queensland would find ourselves governed by the was a great deal said by the Premier as Labour party. If a majority of the people of to the way in which the districts lie · but Central Queen•land chose to return Labour mem­ it is not the fault of the Central peopl~ that bers we would have to accept their decision, the Central line is running due west any more and we are willing to fight that out fairly than it is the fault of the Southern people that aud openly, and see which party would carry their line runs in a peculiar way. Of course I the day. There are plenty of sensible men in admit that, from the shape of Queensland, the the Labour party who certainly would not go Southern line ought to have gone down towards in for the purpose of ruining the colony. As the border of New South Wales and prevented to the boundaries of the Central colony, the the trade going that way, but we must accept Premier supported the Bill to provide for the things as we have them, and must remember division of the colony as proposed, no doubt, in that at that time Central Queensland was as the belief that it would facilitate good govern­ badly represented as it is now in point of ment. \Ve have taken a leaf from his book, and numbers. Everything that was done was if he really thinks Queensland could be better forced upon it by the Southern members. governed by smaller provinces, into which he Therefore it is no use now calling attention suggests it should be broken up, we go a step t'? the fact that this line takes a westerly further and ask why should Queensland not be dtrectwn, because we had no control over it. better governed by breaking it up into three There is something I cannot understand in the autonomous colonies, or, if the North does 522 Central Separation. [ASSEMBLY.] Central Sepa1•ation. not want separation at present, into two? The yet been proposed; but if he simply wishe;, to an8wer to us is-" Up to a certain point we will refer to the effect it will have on the question a:,,ist you, but we will not go one step further." before the House, I think he is in order. \Ve W:>nt to go that step further and try what Mr. ARCHER : I simply wish to refer to the we can do for ourtsPl ves. In referring to what effect it will have on this motion. If the amend­ has been said by the Secretary of State for the ment is proposed and carried, this motion will Colonies, 1, who was present and heard the never come to a division; and it will, therefore, speeches made, came to a very different conclu­ have the effect of preventing the Central mem­ sion from that come to by the Premier on the bers from voting a direct " Yea " or "Nay " on remarb·which were made. I have before me an the motion put on the paper by the hon. member authorised copy of Lore! Knutsford's speech, for Rockhampton, Mr. Curtis. Of course, I am issued from the Colonial Office, and I find he aware that every hon. member has a right to do said that after the question of separation had what is right in his own eyes as long as he does been twice thoroughly thrashed out, if the not break the rules of the House ; but I repeat Federal Constitution Bill was once more that this amendment will have the effect of pre­ thrown ont-and that has since happened-the venting the House from coming to a decision time would have arrived for Her Majesty's on the motion now under consideration. As I Government and the Imperial Parliament to said before, I do not wish to take up time by consider the po~ition of affairs. In using those •peaking at length, and I will conclude with a words he inferred that if the Queensland Parlia­ very few words. In spite of the great trouble ment would not perform its duty, and give which the Chief Secretary has been at in reply­ Central Queensland the autonomy asked for, it ing to the arguments of the hon. member for woul.d be trme for Her Majesty's Government and Rockhampton, Mr. Curtis, and in spite of the Parhament to bke the matter into con8ideration. many pages of statistics he has gone througb, I I wculd like to state that the words used by the am still of opinion that the Central district has hon. gentleman referred not to the Parliament of undoubted cause for asking for separation from Queensland, but more eRpecially to the electors the South. I have unbounded confidence in the of the Central district. The Provincial Di;tricts determination of the Central people to acquire Bill has been thrown out, and the elections have that by every legitimate means in their shown that ten members out of eleven are in power, and I am certain that nothing but a favour of Central separation ; so that the next satisfactory mea~ure, such as would compen­ person who approaches the home Government sate them for want of this, will allay in the will have a far eaeier task than those who have slightest degree their desire for separation. That gone hon1e before in the cause of Central separa­ it will come I am perfectly sati8fied; that I, tion. The long and possibly instructive speech being far advanced in life, may not live to see it, delivered by the Premier cannot possibly be is quite possible; but there are many hon. mem­ answered by me in the short time I intend to take bers in this House who will live to see the Central up this evening ; but I can assure him that he district a separate c~lony. has said nothing to-night that has had the slightest effect in weakening the determination Mr. DAWSON: I can assure the hon. member of the Cent,ral members to carry on this struggle. that I intend to insist on moving u1y amend­ If I were to speak longer, it would prevent ment and pressing it to a division. The amend­ others from sppaking ; and as I am anxious that ment I move is the omission of all the words the debate should come to a close to-night, I after the word "that," in the 1st line, with would rather let it be said that my speech is the view of inserting the words "the question of unsatisfactory than allow the diucussion to go on territorial separation for Northern and Cen­ to another night, and then from week to week, tral Queensland be first submitted to a direct vote without any decision being taken. Of course, of the people of Queensland by a referendum." I have no power over other hon. members, but I do not intend to go into the merits or demerits I am exceedingly sorry that the hon. mem­ of the separation question, because to my mind ber for , lVIr. Dawson, has that question is beyond argument. I am "atisfied given notice of hi; intention to propose, as an that, rf the people of Southern Queensland or the amendment, that all the words after "that" be Sout.hern majority were losing by having the omitted, with a view of inserting "the question Central and Northern districts tacked to them, of territorial separation for Northern and Central they would seize the first opportunity to cMt Queensland be first submitted to a direct vote of them off; and the fact that they hold on to the the peoplA of Queensland by a . referendum." Central and Northern districts so tenaciously is That amendment means putting the question sufficient to show that such retention is desir­ back to the Greek Kalends. able in the best interests of Southern Queensland. The SPEAKER: 'l'he hon. member cannot But"this matter, I maintain, can only be settled anticipate discussion on an amendment of which by a referendum. We know that numbers of notice has been given. persons claim that the people of the colony desire separation, while others urge with equal force ::\lr. ARCHER : I am not going to discuss the and vigour that they do not desire separation; amendment; I am going to debate what effect it and it is difficult to judg-e who are right. The will have on the motion before the Hou~e. hon. member for Hockhampton, Mr. Curtis, urged very forcibly this evening that the people of the 'l'he PREMIER: I think the Iron. member Central district are in favour of separation, and is in order. The amendment has been distri­ he urged that from certain knowledge which he buted. I would myself, if I had thought it possesses; and there are other hon. members who worth while, have referred to the amendment are prepared to back up that statement. On the and the effect it would have on the motion. It other hand, the Premier contended, from know­ would be out of order to debate the amendment ledge which he possesses, that they are not in itself, but it is in order to debate the effect that favour of separation, and there are hon. members amendment will have on the motion before the who will back up his statement. How, then, are House. we to judge who is right? One thing we can The SPEAKER: I was under the impres­ determine, and that is that the matter is agitating sion that the hon. member was going to discuss the public mind, and deserves the attention of the amendment of which the hon. member for the Government. But the question cannot be Charters Towers has given notice. In doing satisfactorily settled except by a direct appeal to that he would be out of order, because he would the people themselves. It may be nrged that the oe anticipatingdiscussion on a question that has not people had ample opportunity to express their Central Separation. [23 AuGusT.] Central Separation. 523

opinion on the subject. That I distinctly deny, South Wales now, Sir Henry Parkes advises that bec

The SPEAKER said : I would point out to conventions m teree-fourths thereof, as the one the House that if the amendment is pnt in the or the other mode o! ratification may be propo,ed by manner proposed by the hon. member for the Congress, provided that no amendments which may be made prior to the year 1808 shall in any manner Charters Towers and negatived, the hon. mem­ affect the 1st and the 4th clauses in the 9th section ot ber for Croydon, :\fr. Browne, will be unable the 1st article; and that no State, without its consent, to then move his amendment, of which he has shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate." given due notice. ·It is my duty to protect the hon. member, and give him an opportunity of Mr. MURRAY: I take the opportunity of moving his amendment if he desires to do so in the expressing my regret at the introduction of this event of the amendment of the hon. member for amendment, more particularly in the form it has Charters Towers being defeated. I shall, there­ taken; and I am rather suprised a.t the hon. fore, put the question in this form:-" That all member for Charters Towers, who has so recently the words after the word 'that,' and down to been before his constituents, when this question and inclusive of the word 'Central,' be omitted." was very fully discussed, should ask to have it That will be substantially the same in effect, be­ remitted to them for their further consideration. cause if that is agreed to the hon. member can What better referendum could there be than the then move a further amendment omitting the late general election? I do not feel it nece~sary remainder of the words. to appeal again to my constituents with regard to this or a.ny other question. I believe I have The PRKMIER: I would like to know how theirfullsupportin whatever I may do here. If we we stand at the present time. My own view of deem it necessary to refer this particular question the matter is that the amendment, of which the back to the constituencies, I presume it will also hon. member forvCroydon has given notice, is be necessary to a! ter our entire system of legislation. out of order altogether. I understand your sug­ I am sure hon. members know pretty well what gestion is to make the am.endment of the hon. the opinion of their constituents is on important member for Croydon authoritative, supposing questions of this description. My desire is to the other passes. I think that the amendment have the proposition discussed on itcl merits, and stands as the hon. member for Charters Towers disposed of as quickly as possible. We have has moved it. been here a considerable time, the session is The SPEAKER : I did not ask the hon. passing on, and very little business has yet been IJ?ember for Croydon to give his consent. I done. If this question is again postponed, as simply say that I wish to protect his right, and the result of the amendment of the hon. member therefore I propose to put the question, "That for Charters Towers, there is no knowing when the word,; proposed to be omitted stand part of it will be disposed of. It will appear on the the question," on the understanding that the paper week after week till the end of the session, words proposed to be omitted are "the con­ and be not a bit more advanced then than it is stituencies of the Central." If the question is now. I will defer any remarks I have to make carried, and the words remain part of the on the general subject until this amendment has question, the amendment of the hon. member been disposed of, which I hope the House will for Charters Towers is practically defeated, and insist upon doing as quickly as possible. that will give the hon. member for Croydon an Mr. HARDING: I must claim the indulgence opportunity of moving the insertion of the word of the House while I refer to a most unwarrant­ "Northern." able attack made upon me by the Premier. To an Mr. DANIELS: We have heard speeches both interjection I made while he was speaking, and for and against the resolution, and I am in the which I had a perfect right to make, the hon. position that I do not care either way. There is gentleman, as I understood him, said the South one thing I should like to refer to. i:n speaking would be prepared to meet us in the same way on the want of confidence motion the senior that the Northern States of America met the member for Rockhampton, who is practically the seceding Southern States, meaning, I presume, leader of the Central separation party, Haid that that they would fight us before they would allow when he·looked round this House he could not see us to get our independence. 'The hon. gentleman any hon. members fit to form another Ministry. is so dictatorial, and so used to having his own Now, after that statement, how would it be way, that he cannot brook contradiction; but possible for the Central division to form a as long as I am a member of this House I shall Ministry? Perhaps it may be the intention of interject whenever I consider I have occasion to the hon. member for Rockhampton to take our do so, in spite of the hon. gentleman. If I mis­ present Ministry with him. Surely he would understood his remark I ~tm sorry, but I not be so mean as to leave us so situated that we believe that is what he said. The Premier could not form a Ministry for ourselves. How also stated that land to the amount of £5,000,000 he proposes to overcome the difHculty I do not had been sold in the Southern district, and only know ; but perhaps, in order to give us a fair to the amount of £1,500,000 in the Central chance to keep our present Ministry, he may district, that the Government had a right intend to toss for it. That is the only objection to sell land from that district until the balance I have against Central separation. My belief is was made even, and that that money would be that the Central people do not hke bemg ruled appropriated as the Government might think by Qneen street, and I can safely say that fit. All I can say is that if they are going to Central Queensland is not the only district in sell £3,500,000 worth of land in the Central which that feeling exists. district, especially at the proposed rate of 5s. an acre, we shall have no land left to alienate. The SECRETARY FOR LANDS: Speaking With regard to representation, the Central to the amendment, I wish to point out to the district has two members out of thirty-nine in House the extreme c:tution which is taken in the the Upper House, and eleven, or two less than United States when any proposal is made for Brisbane and its surrounding•, in the Lower House. changing the Constitution. The 5th article pro­ There is not the slightest doubt that the Central vides that- district has spoken out in no uncertain way, and u The Congress, whenever two~thirds of both Houses that the whole of the electors have recorded shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to their determination to have territorial separa­ this Constitution, or on the application of the leO'islatures tion. The only exception is the case of the hon. of two~ thirds of the several States,. shall call~ conven~ tion for proposing amendments., which in either case member for Gregory, who did not face his con­ shall be "Valid to all intents and purposes, as part of stituents, but was returned on a legal techni­ this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures cality; and standing in the position he does he o! three-fourths of the several States, or by cannot be taken as a representative of the Central Separation. [23 AUGUST.] OentTal Separation. 525

Central district. If he had faced the electors he claim to portions of the Central district as we would have had to come into line like the others now make for self-government. I hop_e the and fight for separation. We are prepared to speeches on the subject may be suffimen.tly give every concession to facilitate the inter· brief to enable us to get a vote on the motwn change of products between the colonies, and we do to-night. not want to have barriers or hamper trade in any Mr. CORFIELD: 'l'he hon. member for way. Now, when Queensland was erected into Rockhampton Korth has said I did not meet rr;Y a colony in December, 1859, the population was constituents. 'I'hat statement I deny. I d1d 25,000; the stock included 20,000 horses, 30'),000 just the same as every other member of the cattle, and about 2,000,000 sheep. The whole House who was returned unopposed. I travelled value of the stock at that time was estimated at over my electorate and addressed vMious meet­ about £2,500,000, and the total wealth of the ings, at which I received votes o~ confidence, and colony was £4,500,000. Does anyone now ~ay if I was returned unopposed 1t was through that the colony has not benefited by separatwn no fault of my own, a' I was prepared to go from New South \Vales, and that it would have through a contest. Speaking to the question, I attained the vosition it now occupies if, it had do not see that there is any great need for this been governed from Sydney all these years? I motion at the present time, and we all know that say if we want to make the colony great and the mover of it has been forced by the pressure prosperous, the sooner we divide it up the better. from one place to ask the House against its Now, compare the position in which Central better judgment to paSIS this motion. I sha~l Queensland stands to-day with that of the vote against it for three reasons. The first IS South. The Central district has 2,071,000 head that s~paration at the present time is calculated of cattle and 9,1362,911 sheep ; the South has to materially injure the interests of Queensland. 2,178,000 cattle and 9,000,000 sheep; the North The second is that, so far as I can gather from has 942,781 head of cattle and 1,524,000 sheep; people who have as great an interest in the the total revenue for 1892 was £682,882, and the Central district as the people of Rockharnpton, expenditure was £602,000, leaving a surplus of in the pastoral districts and around Longreach £80,882 to the good. Comparing the position Central separation is looked upon as a fad, and of the Central district now with the colony any agitation in support of it would be treated when it was separated from New South vV ales, by them with indifference. So far ae the there is not the slighest doubt that we have district I represent is concemed, the residents proved we are in a position to carry on and have are totally opposed to separatiOn of any kind, sufficient resources to be able to govern our­ provincial or territorial, for North, Central, or se! ves. The Premier has said that the people J:louth at the present j <1nctnre, and they are only. of the Central district were frightened of the sympathetic towards Northern separ?'tion, so far Labour party, but that district has only returned as it interests themselves. The tlnrd rea,on­ three Labour members-namely, Messrs. Hard­ and alone it would be sufficient to induce me to acre, Kerr, and Cross, whereas there are eight oppose this motion-is tha.t I decline to re?ognise Central members who are not Labour members. the right of any unauthonsed perBons to mclude The North returned seven Labour member• out of in the Central district that portion of Qneens­ nine, so that, in that respect, I do not think the land which justly claims inclusion · in the Central district has anything to fear. I am proposed Northern colony. I do not for a not going into the figures as quoted by the moment q ueetion the right of the leaders of Premier; but I will put in a more straightforward the Central separation movement to speak for manner the position we stand in as far as the themselves, but I deny altogether that th~y re­ national debt is concerned. 'rhe national debt present the whole or even the greater porhon of of Queensland at the present time is £32,000,000, Queensland, which generally, but wrongly, is and our share of that is £!,500,000. The lines shown on the map of the colony as the Central in the Central district cost £3,500,000, and have district. The htter part of the resolution Le_fore paid 4 per cent. interest, so that our debt ha• so us seems to me to be thrown out as a ba1t to far been reproductive, and given a surplus to the secure the support of the residents of my elec­ good. Now, the interest on the putlic debt of torate. I would ask, \Vhat is the use of it?. In the colony is about £1,200,000, and of that that instructive and arr:using document entitled uublic works produce about £500,000, leaving a " Further correspondence respecting separation balance of £700,000 to be obtained from revenue. for the Central portion of Queensland," recently I unhesitatingly state that the people of the laid on the table of the House, it will Central district are paying largely for works be found that certain gentlemen, and in which they have no interest, and which have amongst them some members of this House, been paid for by money squandered in the South. signing a petition to Hi'< Excellency the Governor We carry that debt on our shoulders like an on this subject, repudiate "the right of a local old man of the sea ; and, like the Israelites of , Parliament to interfere with the exercise of the old, we are held in bondage by the Egyptians. powers expressly reserved to the Crown and The Premier, in an elaborate way, tried to prove Government of the United Kingdom by its that our revenue only amounted to about £20,000, legislature." Yet it is now seriously proposed but if we get credit for all the broken packages by the same gentlemen, in the latter part of this coming through large houses like those of Scott, rE'">lution that they can not only bind the Crown Dawson, and Stewart, and Hoffnung and Co., and Parli~ment of the United Kingdom at pre­ we would have to be given credit for a much larger sent existini!, but also the future Parliament of sum. When Queensland separated from New Central Queensland, should it ever become a South Wales ;he had four steam sawmills, one soap reality. Surely the Separation League of factory, with an output of five tons of soap a Hockhampton must have got tired of poking ye'tr ; one candle factory, with an annual output fun at themselves, and are "now trying to of 50,000 lb. of candles; and two collieries, with have a little joke with us by throwmg out an output of 5,000 tons of coal, worth about this bait of pledging themselves against a £3, 000; and that was the extent of her commercial border tax. Assuming for a moment the interests. The Hon. Premier talked a good deal pa~sing of this resolution and the e-.tablishment of the boundaries of the different divisions of the of a Central Queensland Parliament, is it reason­ colony, but the hon. gentleman cannot now go able to suppose that Parliament woul4 nc?t do back upon what he himself proposed as an its utmost to draw all the trade of the d1stnct to equitable adjustment of boundaries. If we are its own port, despite the pledges conveyed by this !\ranted separation we are willing, if the neceesity resolution? In what way are these pledges to be 1s shown us in the future, to concede a similar enforced? Would North and South Queensland 526 Central Sepamtion. [ASSEMBLY.] GentTal Separation. combine to compel Central Queensland to keep something that has taken them out of the realm these pledge,, ? Although we in the west of of the separation movement, and consequently for Qneensbnd are strangers to the hon. member a time the movemeut loot itB learlet·s, but it will who moved this r(,olution and to his district, he soon be carried on again with full force. The might have given us credit for a little common­ 1\finister for :viine..:; wns one who 111ade a very sense and a knowledge of what we want ourselves, big mouthful at the last general election in se.y­ and that is a gre"t deal more than a mere expres>ion ing that if no other man brought the separation of opinion v.gainst the imposition of a border tax. question forward this seter that if we get a Central State or a K orthern number of the residents of the Gregory dbclaim State it is going to be dominated by the Labour any wish for the tender interest taken in them by . party. I may say here that though four-fifths of the leaders of the Central separation mnvement. the Assembly may be O]nts he would be rejected by them; As the majority of hon. members are de,irous and if he had acted in an honourable manner he that this matter shonld go to a division, I shall would have resigned when the illegality was not say more ; hut l would ag>tin remind discovered, and gone before the electors. hon. members that the reawm why the separa­ 'l'he SPEAKER : The hon. member can tion question has, at various times, apparently scarcely discuss th"t matter. It is not at all fallen flat on the attention of the public is relevant to the question under considemtion. that its leaders have been prc•.eticnlly bribed by Mr. i\IcDON' ALD : I was only replying to billets and other things to abandon the move­ the hon. gentleman, who is continually talking ment. about his constituents. However, as his con­ Mr. DUF:FY : Before I enter upon a speech I stituents only consist of one, very likely there should like to know whether we are now dis­ will not be much weight attached to his asser­ cussing the motion or the amendment? tions. The SPEAKER : 'fhe hon. member may The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Your spe>tk to the amendment, if he wishes. constituents are very much divided. The HoN. B. D. MOH.EHE";l,.D: Must. Mr. McDONALD: Very likely. I had the Mr. DU:F:FY: I" must" speak to the amend­ pleasure, however, of defeating one of those who ment? probably would have been a strong supporter of The SPEAKER: The hon. member may the present Government, and naturally the Go­ speak to either the main question or the amend­ vernment do not like it. I believe that those ment. who are not prepared to trust the people are not Mr. DUFFY: I wish to make a few remarks to be trusted themselves, and if we want to get on the motion; but I would first say that I the r••al opinion of the people of the Northern was pained to hf,ar the hon. m em her for Korth and Central and Southern districts as to whether Rockharnpton claim the right to interject and they are in favour of separation or not, the interrupt hon. members when speaking. To me proper way is by means of the referendum. interruption by interjectionR is very distressing, \Ve have been told that separation is practically as I am of a nervous disposition, and I would dead, and that the last election proved it, It like to see that practice, which is an abominable did nothing of the kind, As a matter of fact, one, diecontinued on both sides of the Hou&•:. the whole of those who advocated separation in iVith regard to the motion, I am opposed to the past have been provided with billets, or dividing the colony into two or more portions, Central Separation. [23 AuGusT.] Central Separation. 527 because it would simply mean increasing the point of the bayonet. With respect to the cost of government, without giving us any alleged injustice to the Central district, a great corresponding ad vantage. I am exceedingly deal of· capital has been made out of the fact sorry that the hon. member has introduced that bst year's revenue exceeded tbe expenditure this question into the House at this particu­ by a considerable a,mount. But he took great lar juncture of the colcny's affairs, because I care to quote last year's revenue only, and to am firmly convinced that the cry for Central quote last year's Financial Statement only. We sepamtion i" not bona .fide. It is not the wish all know that the Central di,,trict is a purely of the residents of Central Queensland that pastoral district, and we all know also that last they should have separation. The pastoralists, year was very favourable to the squatters; and who al"e the we'1lth-producers of the district, are when that industry is prosr.oerous, that portion of opposed to Central separation, and those who the colony where it is carried on is bound to go support it do so from fear of the organised band ahead. But the hem. member forgot to tell us of individua.!s who dominate the separation that the expenditure in the Central district on movement at Rockhampton. The gentlemen the basis of population exceeded that in the who are booming the separation question Southern district by a very large sum. . The at Rockhamptnn refuse to grant to others hon. gentleman moved for a return to he la1d on what they claim for themselves-that is, the the table of the House, and I will quote from right tc) one's own opinion ; and if any person that return to show the peculiar position he is in in Rockhampton was to express an opinion in respect to tha', expenditure. According to unfavourable to separation, the crowd would be the return, the popuhtion of Southern Queens­ only too willing and ready to burn him in effigy, land is 287,512, and the expenditure for last year as they did ;\Ir. Crombie, a leading pa,torali~t of was .£1,568,597, or £5 9s. per head. The popnla­ the district, and a member of this House, no tion of tl1e Central district is 50,13fl, and the more than twelve months ago, for having the expenditure was .£463,59!5, or .£!J 5s. p-er head. temerity to speak against separation. The cry So that, taking the expenditure on the basis of for Central sel!amtion did not emanate from the population, it has actually amounted to nearly pastoralists, \Vho are the mainstay of the Central double in the Central district -.vhat it is district, bnt from Rockhampton; in fact, it in the Southern district ; yet onr separation emanated from the junior member for Rock­ friends have the effronterv to come here hampton. It was conceived, hatched, and brought a.nd tell us that we rob" them, when we forth in the open air by the hon. member. I know tha.t for years past the Central district has remember that, twelve months or so ago, the been spoon-fed at the expense of the other dis· hon. member was safely delivered of his bant­ tricts. In proof of that I may refer to the last ling on a four-wheeled lorry in the open square Financial Statement, which shows that, out of at Rockhampton. He is the Alpha and Omega .£16,000,000 which has been spent upon railway of the whole separation agitation. He suckleri construction in the colony, no les.< than £4,500,000 it in its infancy, nursed it in its childhood, and has been spent in the Central district. That is, is now assisting- it on to a premature grave. I the Central district, with one-ninth of the t1tal am quite sure he has seen long the hopeless­ ·population, has received considerably over one­ ness nf his case, but being determined to die fourth of the amount of money spent on railway hard, he was seized with an irresistible desire to construction, and still we are told that we have enter Parliament, and try and force his fad on been unjust to them. I shall not go into details an unwilling cour1try. I felt gratified when I as to the other nmounts of loan money or general heard the hon. meniber, whom I have known for revenue that have been spent there. 'Ve all know twenty years, wa3 returned for Hockhampton at that a large amount of money has been dumped into the late general election, bemmse I thought that an impossible river, not tc, take into considera­ Parliament and the country would have the tion thP .£40,000 absolutely wasted)n building a benefit of his varied business experience and wharf in a swamp at Port Alma, to satisfy their undoubted ability; but I confess that [ have vanity. :Now, having bled the Tr~asn,ry, they been disappointed with him since he came want to cut the po,inter, and leave us m ''outhern into the House, for, instead of assisting Parlia­ Queensland to bear the brunt of ·the expenditure ment and the Government to restore confidence on public institntions that have been built and place the affairs of the colony on a especially to accommodate the government of sound and progressive basis, every time he has the colony '" a whole. spoken he· has simply ground his little axe of Central separation. I have come to regard the Mr. CURT[S: I wish to speak to the amend­ hon. member a• a second vVashington, and, judg­ ment. The hon. member for Bundaberg referred ing from the speech he delivered this evening, I juot now to the expenditure in the Central should s>ty he has the declaration of American district on the basis of population, and pointed independence off by heart. Really, 'Vashinl',rton, out that it was greater than that in the Southern of American fame, cannot hold a candle to him. division. But he forgot to say that it came out I have been readinl! up some of the speeches of of revenue producer! by the Central division, the hon. member for Rockhampton in favour of which, after incurring that expenditure, has still separation, and ha\·e come to the conclusion that ""surplus of £140,000. Then, with reference to the he is fairly bursting with warlike spirit. There Port Alma wharf, the people never asked for it. is a report of one of hiR speeches in the Rock­ The SPEAKER: I must call the hem mem· hampton Bulletin, and he is made to say that, ber to order. I fail to see that he is speaking to failing to obtain separation by fair means, he the amendment, "which is very definite in its was prepared to wrest it from the Southerners terms. at the point of the bayonet. I would ask him what right he has to use such language Mr. ARCHER: I would like to have your to bon. members representing Southern con­ ruling, 8ir, upon this point. Has a member who stituencie>"? The inherent right, I suppose! rises now to speak to the amendment a right like Does he wish to intimidate us into voting for others to speak on the main question? this separation scheme, or does he wish to Mr. CURTlS: The hon. member for Bunda­ convey thl1t we are a lot of cowardly pol­ berg directed a considerable amount of his troons ? If so, I can assure him that he is mistaken, and I have no hesitation in saying remarks to me. that, should the exigency of the case demand The SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bunda­ it, Southern members will he found able and berg distinctly stated that he was speaking willing to defend their position, even at the to the main question. The junior member for 528 Central Separation, [ASSEMBLY.]

Rockhampton will have the right of reply later on; to take up any cudgel with which to beat down but, if he wishes to speak now, he must confine their opponents. The people are concerned his remarks to the amendment. in this question, and they should be given an Mr. CURTIS: I shall wait, then. opportunity of saying whether this is an attempt to increase land values in Rockhampton, or Mr. FISHER : At the general election the whether they consider a Government estah. question of Central separation obtained nothing lished in Rockbampton would be better for more than passing notice. I would like to say, them than a Government in Brisbane. This in regard to the motion, that while it might do thing will come sooner or later. A IC~rg-e justice to Central Queensland it might, taking measure of extended local "elf-government will ill the circumstances into account, be doing be attained in this colony, and it is neces­ m injustice to the rest of the colony. I sary that it should be granted in order Jelieve that the colony is far too big to be to allay the discontent which exists in the ;overned from a place situated at one end of distant parts of the colony against Brisbane or t. Districts remote from Brisbane suffer Queen-street government. It would be of ww, and will continue to suffer, from that advantage to the South, as well as to the Central 'act. As to the assertion that the Central and Northern districts, if some snch system of :eparation cry is wrapped up entirely in the junior self-government could be instituted whereby nember for Rockhampton, I do not believe the people might be enabled to manage their own ,bat such a thing is poRsible. Some in­ affairs, which they can do better than other ustice must have been done to cause such people. m amount of irritation and feeling in the Jentral district; but I am not convinced Mr. BELL: If this debate has no 0ther object hat this is the proper time or the proper of interest, it is at all events noteworthy for tbe fact that this is the £r,thin this House and in the Imperial Parlia­ Charters Towers. ent; but, strange to say, the leaders c,f the Mr. CALLAN: I think it is rather unfortu­ mservative party in Great Britain are now nate that the Premier should check a m em her lvocating its use. vVe find Lord Salisbury, who has not yet spoken in the House. I know :r. Balfour, and Mr. Chamberlain now wanting what "nervous thing it is to get up and speak e Home Rule question settled by a referendum; here, ancl I am sure the hon. member must have 1d if men in their high position8 think it a felt it. It may not have been intentional-- uper safeguard for the people, the Central embers should see that the amendment is a The SPEAKER : I must call the hon. ·oper one for them to accept. member's attention to the qnesti'lll before the Home. He is decidedly out of order. The COLONIAL TREASURER : Do you rear by Lord Salisbury? Is he your authority? Mr. CALLAN: I do not intend to be disre­ spectful to the Premier. Mr. FISHER : I do not swear by Lord tlisbury; but I mention the circumstance as The PREMH;R: I do not care whether the 1 evidence of the advance in Conservative hon. member is disrespectful or not, as long as I rcles. In other words, we find politicians ready understand what he says. Central Separation. [23 AuausT.] Central Separation. 529

Mr. CALLAN: With regard to the referendum, NOF.S, 20. I do not think the House is prepared to accept Messrs. Hoolan, Kerr, Hardacre, McDonald, King, it; and as to the question of one man one vote, Reid, Turley, Macfarlane, Rawlings, Jackson, Dunsford, I am distinctly pledged against it. I do not Cross, Browne. Fisher, Daniels, Cadell, Lovejoy, Dawson, agree with the amendment, and shall vote Powers, and Drake. against it. PAIR. Mr. HARDACRE : As I distinctly stated in Forth~ amendment-Mr. Groom. my election manifesto that I was in favour of Against the amendment-Mr. Hamilton. the principle of the referendum, I intend to Question resolved in the affirmative. vote for the amendment. I do not do so with any reluctance either, because I believe that if Mr. ,BROWNE : In moving the amendment the question were referred to the people it would standing in my name, I say at once that I am result in placing the separationists of Central not animated by any antagonistic feeling towards Queensland in even a stronger position than they the Central separation movement. On the con­ occupy at present. It would show how over­ trary, as a Northern separationist myself, I want whelmingly unanimous the people there were for to he! p them all I can. separation. The PREMIER: I rise to a point of order. The Mr. BURNS : If the hon. members who are amendment which the hon. member has given supposed to represent labour are really desirous of notice of is to add the words "and Northern" after seeing the motion carried, they could not have the word "Central" in the motion. I submit that chosen a better way to defeat it than by pro­ that a,mendment is perfectly irrelevant to the posing this amendment. One Northern member motion. On the principle that we cannot move has said that the question of separation was not an amendment on a Bill outside the scope of the brought up when he was elected. That is a Bill, we certainly cannot move an amendment on most astounding statement, because I know that a motion outside the scope of that motion. Let us consider the position the hon. member for in every Northern electorate i~ was the particular question on which hon. members were returned. Rockhampton is placed in by this amendment. I do not intend to support the amendment; and if He asks, and has made every preparation, for a it is made in a friendly spirit, the mover of the direct decision of the Hou8e on one subject­ original motion has every reason to say, "SaYe that is, whether we shall have Central separation me from my friends." or not. He now finds the whole issue c®nfused by a perfectly incompatible amendment which Mr. MACF ARLANE : It is well known to will prevent him getting a decision of the House the old members of the House that frequently upon the question he has submitted. during debates on separation I have suggested that the best way to settle this question was to Mr. HOOLAN: Not at all. obtain the real voice of the people upon it. If The PREMIER : The adoption of the amend· the people, by a majority of five-eighths or ment would involve a complete alteration of the three-fourths, declare for separation, I should not whole motion. Though things of this kind may object to granting it. To be consistent I shall be done on less important matters neither in the support the amendment. Imperial Parliament nor in this has an hon, Question-That the words proposed to be member's motion been allowed to be dummied by omitted stand part of the question-put. another member for a particular purpose outside the object of the motion. 'fhat is exactly The PREMIER : I think, Mr. Speaker, it what is proposed to be done by this amendment. would be advisable that you should let the The House is asked to give a decision as to House understand the effect of the ruling you whether Central separation shall be granted, and gave earlier in the evening with reJ5'ard to the it is not a proper or constitutional thing, nor question. I am sure all hon. members do not will the rules of this House :tllo w the motion to understand what the effect of it will be. be confused by the importation of a subject The SPEAKER : I thought hon. members which has nothing in the world to do with it. distinctly understood that I intended only to put According to '' May," 1883 edition, page 325, it the motion to omit the words, "the constituen­ is laid down that- cies of the Central," because if the amendment is "An amendment should be relevant to the question to put as proposed by the hon. member for Charters which it is -proposed to be made. On the 28th February, 18S2~ on a motion for declaring :.\ilichael Drtvitt incapable Towers, Mr. Dawsou, it would preclude the hon. of being elected or returned as a member, an amend­ member for Croydon, Mr. Browne, from moving ment was about to be _proposed for an address to the the amendment of which he has given clue notice. Crown for a free pardon; but the Speaker interposed, For the information of hon. members I will read and pointed out that such an amendment was inad­ a decision bearing on the subject. mi~'lible, as it had no relation to the question before the House, bnt should form the subject of a distinct The PREMIER: We are quite satisfied with motion after notice given in the usual manner.n your decision ; but I should like you to explain to That is completely to the point; and if any hon. the House the effect of the vote. member wished to get the decision of the House as The SPEAKER : The question put to the to whether we should have Northern separation, House is "That the words proposed to be omitted his proper plan was to do as the hon. member stand part of the question "-that is, the words for Rockhampton has done, and have brought " the constituencies of the Central." If that is the question before the House in a distinct carried, the effect will be the rejection of the motion, and not to confuse the motion we have whole amendment and the retention of the before us now. original resolution. The question now is, "That Mr. POWERS : Before the ruling on the the words proposed to be omitted stand part point of order is given, and as the Premier has of the question." stated that in this matter a motion should be The House divided:­ treated just in the same way as a Bill, I draw .AT~<~s, 39. attention to the fact that the hon. gentleman Sir T. Mcllwraith, Messrs. Byrnes, Nelson, Tozer, was himself a member of a Government who Philp, Barlow, Thorn, ~rorehead, Dickson, Archer, Bel~ introduced a Bill to divide the colony into Crombie, Smyth, Callan, Agnf\w, Stephens, Foxton, Allan, Boles, Harding, Ourtis, Duffy, Plunkett, Pbillips, Northern and Southern Queensland, and the hon. Oameron, Morgan, Burns, Murray, Kingsbury, Smith, member for Normanby was allowed to move an McMaster, Corfield, Dalrymple, Stevens, Midson, Lord, amendment on that Bill to insert the words "and Tooth, Annear, and Armstrong. Central." This motion deals with the ~a,rnl;l 1893-2 L 530 Oe1~tral Separation. [ASSEMBLY.] Central Separahon. subject, and as that amendment was allowed in This amendment goes to an entirely different a Bill, I submit that the ruling in this instance subject-the subject of Northern separation, should allow an exactly similar amendment to which is not relevant to the proposal before us. this motion. As relevancy is the guiding factor in this case, I The SECRETARY FOR LANDS: In sup­ maintain that the amendment is out of order. port of the Premier, I quote from "Dennison's Mr. DRAKE: Hon. members have overlooked and Brand's Decisions." ]\,fr. Speaker Denni

Mr. HARDACRE: If you, Sir, rule in The SPEAKER : Does the hon. member accordance with the opinion of th~ Chief Sec­ withdraw the motion? retary, it will be an injustice to the motion for Central separation. Objections have been The HoN. G. THORN: No, Sir. This is made to the almost insurmountable difficulty one of the most important questions we have of slicing a piece out of the middle of the ever had before the House, and should be fully colony and forming it into a self-governing discussed. community, and we propose to remove these Question-That the debate be now adjourned objections by saying we will have three divi­ -put ; and the House divided :- sion~--Northern, Central, and Southern. It AYEs, H3, may alter the votes in such a way that members would-- Sir T. 1\!cllwraith, ~fBRsrs. Barlow, Byrnes, Tozer, Nelson, Philp, Annear, Tooth, Midson, Lord, Step hens, The PREMIER: That is not speaking to the Thorn, i\icMaster, Armstrong, Dalrymple, Cha.taway, point of order. Callan, Burns, Camerou, Corfield, Phillips, Plunkett, Smith, Stevens, Duffy, Macfarlane, Kingsbury, Allan, The SPEAKER : The hon. member must Smyph, Agnew, Crombie, Dickson, and Hoolan. confine himself to the point of order. NoEs, 25. Mr. HARD ACRE: The point is that the Messrs. Archer, Drake, Powers, Curtis, Cadell, Lovejoy, amendment is not relevant, and I am trying to Harding, Daniels, Browne, Cross, Dunsford, Rawlings, show that it is relevant, because it will affect the Jackson, Boles, Thfurray, Ha:,,1iltoit, Turley, Reid, Fisher, votes with regard to the main que&tion. King, Kerr, Hardacre, :llcDonald, Dawson, and Morgan, Mr. CURTIS: Speaking to the point of order, Question resolved in the affirmative. I wish to say that I have no objection to the The resumption of the debate was made an amendment. Order of the Day for Friday, 25th August. Mr. FISHER: I can conceive of circumstances in which a resolution may be proposed applying PEARL-SHELL AND BECHE-DE-MER to one town, say, Brisbane, and where, if this FISHERY ACTS Al\fENDMENT BILL. amendment is ruled out of order, it would not be competent to add Rockhampton, because it was MESSAGE FROM THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. out of the scope of the original resolution. The SPEAKER announced the receipt of a The COLONIAL TREASURER: That ques­ message from the Legi8lative Council, returning tion has often been settled on those very lines. this Bill without amendment. Mr. FISHER: One thing I regret in connec­ ADJOURNMENT. tion with this discussion, and that is the dogmatic way in which the Premier spoke-- The PREMIER : I move that this House do now adjourn. The first business to-morrow will The SPEAKER : The hon. member must be the second reading of the Victoria Bridge Bill, confine himself to the point of order. and after that the Co-operative Communities Mr. FISHER : I merely wished to say I Land Settlement Bill in committee. regretted the dogmatic way in which the Premier Question put and passed. referred to you, Mr. Speaker. The House adjourned at a quarter past 11 Mr. POWERS : With reference to the o'clock. remarks of the Premier, I would point out that, on the 27th September last, Mr. Murray moved a similar amendment in committee, and no objection was raised. The SPEAKER: The motion proposed by the hon. member for Rockhampton has reference to the separation of the Central portion of Queensland. That is a distinct question, and it will be interfered with by the amendment which is now sought to be proposed by the hon. mem­ ber for Croydon, Mr. Browne. A distinct issue is raised in the one case, and if the amendment is allowed that issue will be connected with another which is entirely different from it. Therefore, I am of opinion that the amendment is not rele­ vant, and cannot be put. Mr. DAWSON: I raised another point of order, as to whe~;her hon. members were allowed to debate a question of order unless invited to do so by the Speaker, and I particularly drew attention to Standing Order 110. I again ask for your ruling on that matter, notwithstanding the assertion of the Premier that he did not care what your ruling was. The PREMIER: I did not say anything of the sort. The SPEAKER said: It has always been the custom of this Honse for any hon. member to speak on a point of order. The PREMIER : I hope we shall always pre­ serve that right. The HoN. G. THORN : I beg to move that the debate be now adjourned. HONOURABLE MEMBERS on the Opposition side: No, no!