Vol. 708 Monday No. 43 9 March 2009

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Sports Clubs EU: Middle East Peace Process Archaeology Pensioners: Savings Business of the House Motion on Standing Orders Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Registration of Regulated Activities) Regulations 2009 European Parliamentary Elections (Franchise of Relevant Citizens of the Union) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 Representation of the People (Amendment) Regulations 2009 Motions to Approve Northern Ireland Bill Second Reading Northern Ireland: Massereene Army Base Statement Banking: Asset Protection Scheme Statement Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] Committee (Seventh Day)

Grand Committee Health Bill [HL] Committee (Fifth Day)

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 945 Sports Clubs[9 MARCH 2009] Sports Clubs 946

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, that is a question House of Lords to which the Government have paid critical attention Monday, 9 March 2009. in recent years. The drop-out rate when children leave school is responsible for the deterioration in sporting 2.30 pm activity among younger adults, which leads to attendant health problems and obesity issues that are linked to Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester. these matters. We have been concerned to link sports clubs more closely with schools. This is also critical to Sports Clubs sport clubs, because they get the next generation of participants from young people. We have been concerned Question in a whole range of sports to get a link between sport and school so that these relationships can be established. 2.37 pm A very clear illustration of this, which has universal Asked By Baroness Billingham approval, is Chance to shine in cricket. It takes into To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action schools qualified sports coaches from the clubs. they are taking to encourage and assist local sports clubs to improve their facilities. Lord Addington: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the millennium target of getting a million more Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the people into sports will be delivered almost totally by Government are making significant amounts of amateur sports clubs, which are thus a vehicle for capital funding available through Sport England and government policy? What are we doing to ensure that national governing bodies to assist local community they have lower running costs—for instance, by helping sports clubs to improve their facilities. In addition, we with utility bills—and are we going to ensure that they have been working with Sport England and others to receive assistance for such things as coaching costs in develop guidance on the operation of the planning the future? system to help sports clubs wanting to improve their facilities to navigate through the planning system. We are looking at what more can be done; for example, Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord we are also hoping to review planning policy guidance will be aware of the amount of support that the note 17 Planning for Open Space, Sport and Government have given to sports clubs for their facilities, Recreation this summer. particularly in rugby. Indeed, the Rugby Football Union has been very concerned about the link with schools. Baroness Billingham: My Lords, I thank the Minister The noble Lord is quite right to emphasise that a great for that positive and helpful reply. Sports clubs up and deal needs to be done. There is no doubt that the down the country will certainly welcome it. They have crucial link is the drop-out rate. The government been seeking for many years to upgrade their facilities strategy of encouraging sport in school and links with by simple initiatives such as putting in floodlights or the sports clubs and of support for the sports clubs is better playing surfaces. They will certainly be heartened directed at countering that. by the Minister’s reply. Who is going to be involved in the appraisals and negotiations about enabling planning Lord Brookman: My Lords— procedures to be improved and what is the timetable? This is a crisis; clubs are closing. When are the Government Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, it has never hoping to get these planning guidelines into place? struck me that sports clubs were particularly daft. What exactly are the Government going to do that will Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to make such a difference to a sports club’s application my noble friend who does sterling work in this area. for planning consent? She is right to press the Government on planning approvals. We are all aware that sports clubs with only voluntary assistance often have great difficulty in coping Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, no one suggests with the formalities of planning permission. We are for a moment that sports clubs are daft. In fact, we all hoping to get the guidance ready for the summer. It salute the enormous voluntary contributions that are takes a few months. We have got full consultation in made to almost every sports club in the land. However, order to get all the parties involved, and we are optimistic there is a fairly limited amount of professional support that we will be able to present to sports clubs in the for sports clubs and, as the noble Baroness will know, summer a clear strategy for dealing with planning negotiating one’s way through existing planning laws permission. and planning permission with a local authority can often be quite a challenge. We are seeking to simplify Lord Harrison: My Lords, the greatest fall-off in that and to give guidance and support to sports clubs participation in sports by young people is when they so that they know how to make planning applications leave school or college. What more can our Government that are more likely to get approval. I cite one obvious do to strengthen the links between sports clubs, which example. It is not necessarily easy for sports clubs to should properly receive these young people, and erect floodlights. They may need floodlights so that universities and schools where they have so enjoyed sports can be available in the later darker hours in the sport? Young people sometimes lack direction as to evening, but floodlights have an impact on the locality where they can continue sports into their 20s and 30s and local authorities obviously have some concern and beyond. about that. 947 Sports Clubs[LORDS] EU: Middle East Peace Process 948

Lord Brookman: My Lords— and from what we gather from the press and public statements, President Obama, the Secretary of State, Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, the Minister Senator Mitchell, the chief of staff and the entire mentioned drop-out rates. Is he aware that girls are Middle Eastern team of the President so urgently now liable to drop out of sport more readily than boys, and desire? if so, can he say whether any specific initiatives are being directed to encourage girls to stay in sport? Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we all recognise the strength of that pressure and the importance now Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we hope that accorded to this issue by the United States, as evidenced the greater emphasis on sport in schools, which is by the speech made by Hillary Clinton to the conference directed at boys and girls, will reap benefits. My noble on 2 March. At that conference on future developments, friend is absolutely right that the drop-out rate for it was clear that the European Union and others, girls occasions particular concern. Part of the general including the UK, were very concerned to produce strategy is to emphasise that we want sport to be part support for reconstruction in Gaza, but we also recognise of the school curriculum, that we want expertise from the wider context in which this reconstruction has to local clubs to be available to young people who are be viewed. The noble Lord is right that we look developing their sporting abilities, and that we want forward to progress with the new Israeli Government, those young people to look to the clubs in their once they have been formed, towards a more effective neighbourhood as the necessary locale to which they relationship between Palestine and Israel. go after they leave school so that we can reduce the present unacceptable drop-out rate, particularly Lord Wright of Richmond: My Lords, does the among girls. Minister agree that President Obama’s forthcoming Lord Howard of Rising: My Lords, I must declare visit, nevertheless— an interest as chairman of the National Playing Fields Association. Does the Minister regret the number of The Lord Bishop of Rochester: My Lords, I thank playing fields that have been sold by the educational the noble Lord for giving way. Where does the greatest establishment since 1997? resistance to a two-stage solution of the conflict lie? Is it with the Israelis or among the Palestinians? Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the choice of date has a certain salience to it. Since 1997, no playing Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I do not think field has been sold except on the condition that its that the issue is about apportioning responsibility for facilities are replaced—frequently they are enhanced the difficulties of the past. It is to see how we can be by the sporting provision that takes its place—which constructive with regard to the future. I am sure that was notoriously lacking between other dates I can the right reverend Prelate will take delight, as will the think of, such as 1979 and 1997. whole House, in the more progressive, constructive position which is now being taken up by the international EU: Middle East Peace Process community, and the increase in demands on the Palestinians and the new Israeli Government to recognise Question their responsibilities for a lasting peace in the Middle East. Clearly, what has been continuing in recent years 2.45 pm has led to untold disasters, such as that we have Asked By Lord Dykes witnessed in recent months. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they support the objective of the Czech presidency of Lord Wright of Richmond: My Lords, at the risk of the European Union that President Obama’s visit repeating myself, does the Minister agree that President to Europe in April should include talks with European Obama’s forthcoming visit presents European Ministers Union Ministers on the Middle East peace process. with a welcome opportunity to try to convince him that the continued expansion of Israeli settlements in Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we believe that the West Bank and reports of the further destruction the United States is integral in helping to resolve the of Palestinian homes and settlement in East Jerusalem Middle East peace process. The European Council are far worse than unhelpful, to quote his Secretary of issued a declaration in December confirming that the State? They present a fatal possibility of killing the Middle East peace process remains a priority in 2009 peace process with dire implications for the future and the importance of the US in taking this forward. security of Israel and for the future creation of an We welcome the United States’ prioritisation of peace independent Palestinian state. in the Middle East and any opportunities for discussion between the European Union Ministers and the United Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the House is States Administration on this issue. always eager to hear the noble Lord on these issues and the constructive approach he adopts. It is clear Lord Dykes: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the European Union is eager for progress. Noble that the European Union has given solid support to Lords will recognise the great opportunities that will Israel in recent years, repeatedly insisting on preconditions exist during the G20 summit and the President’s with Hamas while not stopping the settlement expansion subsequent visits to Europe for pressure to be brought that Israel still is carrying on? Is it not high time for to bear on the world’s outstanding difficult issues, of Israel to return that support by negotiating a proper which this is one of the more obviously calamitous. deal for a full Palestinian state, which, on all understanding We expect the United States to find that any constructive 949 EU: Middle East Peace Process[9 MARCH 2009] Archaeology 950 initiative and stance that it proposes to take on the downturn in the building industry, when their services issues identified by the noble Lord are those that the are less needed? After all, we are not talking about European Union is likely to raise with the President. large sums of money.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, is it not Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Earl reassuring that, contrary to predictions and the presidency emphasised an important factor in his penultimate of the Bush Administration, the Obama Administration point—that we need to protect the skills base of this have given priority to the peace process from the start? highly skilled sector during the downturn. He will Is the Minister confident that the European Union know how that is closely related to the construction will respond accordingly, in action and not words—for industry’s problems; its reduction in activity means example, in naval and border patrols—to prevent arms that work for architects is greatly reduced. We are smuggling into the Gaza strip and generally to provide concerned to preserve, as far as possible, the levels of potential support for any eventual settlement? this country’s skills base through this difficult time. It means that architecture and many other skills will Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, it is important need government investment and support. He is right that Europe is constructive in these circumstances and that the public sector can play its part. Certainly, local seizes the opportunity to align itself with what my authorities have a role with regard to the employment noble friend has identified as a difference of perspective of people with these specific skills. However, he will between President Obama’s Administration and that also be aware of the pressures on the wider economy of their predecessor, and recognise that it has its role which are giving rise to concern. to play. However, others have their role to play. We Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, will my noble should also recognise the importance of the recent friend assure the House that the Government will do conference chaired by Egypt and the importance of all they can to ensure that the archaeology sector is the Arab world’s role with regard to a long-lasting not weakened in the recession? Will he confirm that solution to these issues. the forthcoming planning policy statement on heritage and archaeology will not diminish existing protections Archaeology for archaeology, particularly in respect of the duties that local planning authorities may lay upon developers, Question and that the Government look to local authorities not to reduce the capacity of their historic environment 2.52 pm services? Asked By The Earl of Glasgow Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps are not concerned to do anything other than to enhance they are taking to secure the future of professional as far as we are able our heritage, of which buildings archaeology in the United Kingdom, and in particular play such an important part. We recognise that both to mitigate the effect on archaeologists of the recent public authorities and those organisations which receive contraction in the building industry. public funds play a critical role in this area. This is clearly a difficult time, but it is clear right across Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, English Heritage government, industry and the economy that if we lose and DCMS attended a sector-led seminar on this issue skilled people at this time and set them at naught, the on 16 February. The Government support the progress of recovery will be that much slower and that development of workplace training and continuous Britain will have greater difficulties in competing with professional development opportunities, including the the wider world unless we enhance the skills base. That new national vocational qualification and involvement is why, at the end of last year, the Government year with apprenticeships. Such initiatives, including those emphasised the amount of resources that they were funded by English Heritage and the Heritage Lottery putting into enhancing and protecting the skills base Fund, help to support skills development in the short in this country, of which architecture is such a significant term and build capacity in the workplace for the part. longer term. Noble Lords: Archaeology. The Earl of Glasgow: My Lords, I thank the Minister Baroness Hooper: My Lords, does the Minister not for that Answer, but it does not resolve the question of agree that the needs of marine archaeologists are the huge number of professional archaeologists who frequently left out in considerations of training and are becoming unemployed. Of the 6,500 professional careers? If he cannot reassure us that marine archaeologists archaeologists in work last year, approximately one-fifth have special mention in the English Heritage project to have lost their jobs in the past six months. Some which he has referred, can he reassure us that, in the archaeological practices are likely to cease trading debate on the marine Bill which takes place later today altogether. Is the Minister fully aware of how damaging in your Lordships’ House, their needs will be taken this increasing loss is likely to be to the future of into account? Britain’s heritage? Can the country afford to risk losing so many highly educated, though underpaid, professionals Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Baroness to other better paid professions during this recession? has only to wait for the third amendment this afternoon Will the Government encourage, and, if necessary, to see that we shall be discussing these issues with assist, local authority planning departments to keep some intensity. I therefore hope that I am able to give their professional archaeologists employed during this her that reassurance. 951 Archaeology[LORDS] Pensioners: Savings 952

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, I apologise to noble Lords for my slight slip in Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of saying “architecture”. I was on a visit for the Lord Luton): My Lords, tackling pensioner poverty remains Speaker on Friday and a student raised with me the a key priority, and we are committed to supporting intense difficulties that he was facing despite having pensioners during these difficult times. We will continue potentially very high A-level scores. He wanted to to build on the substantial progress we have made in study architecture, so I had architecture as well as lifting 900,000 pensioners out of relative poverty since archaeology in my mind, hence the slight slip. 1998-99 on an after-housing-cost basis. In 2008-09, we provided extra help to pensioners through one-off The Lord Bishop of Rochester: My Lords, are the boosts to the Christmas bonus and winter fuel payments Government continuing to promote the valuable work and we are spending over £13 billion more on pensioners of British archaeologists abroad, especially in the Holy than if 1997 policies had continued. Land and the Middle East generally? Baroness Seccombe: My Lords, I thank the Minister Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the right reverend for his Answer, which was probably predictable. I Prelate is right that that needs some emphasis, particularly declare an obvious interest as I am a pensioner. Interest as we have all been concerned that war and strife in the rates have plummeted but does the Minister think that Middle East and further afield present real dangers to it is right and fair that savers, most of whom are the archaeological inheritance. We are all too well elderly and rely on investment income, are subsidising aware of the risks and problems that war has brought, those who took on outsize mortgages? which is all the more reason that we have a level of expertise such that we can contribute to ensuring that we protect that irreplaceable inheritance. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am not sure that that is an appropriate way to look at the issue. The Government keep all savings incentives under Lord Walpole: My Lords, now that rescue archaeology, review and we should be clear about the extent of the which is what has really being happening during the issue, which is that 42 per cent of pensioners receive past 20 years, is not quite so necessary, do we not have less than £1 a week or no income from investments. an opportunity to do some good academic archaeology Around 70 per cent of pensioner benefit units receive in the near future and pay for people to do it? less than £10 a week from investments. It is estimated that an 80 per cent reduction in investment income, Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, opportunities which is roughly what has happened, would reduce may exist, because there is no doubt that some people’s pensioners’ net income before housing costs by 3 per difficulties can be others’ opportunities. However, I cent on average but less than 1 per cent on the basis of have no doubt that if I were too positive in my a median analysis. It is an issue but it is not of the scale response to the noble Lord, while sharing his sentiments, that some suggest. the university sector would be at pains to emphasise to me its difficulties in expanding opportunity in this area. Baroness Greengross: My Lords, is there any way in which the noble Lord could try to speed up the Lord Redesdale: My Lords, given that most of the introduction of uprating state pension in line with money for archaeology has come from the development earnings so that it is earlier than intended? That would sector and that a great deal of archaeological knowledge help a lot of poorer pensioners among us who are now resides in the private sector in the units, those suffering, as the noble Baroness suggested, because lay-offs mean that we are losing an enormous amount their savings are not giving them any return on their of specialist knowledge such as in, say, Roman Samian income. ware, on which there is only one expert in the country. If someone loses his job, that knowledge is lost to the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the uprating country.Will the Minister take that into account especially of the pension from this April is 5 per cent, which is when thinking about the establishment of historic RPI. That, of course, is currently in excess of earnings. record centres? The ongoing uprating of pension was laid down in the Pensions Act 2007, which was to uprate in 2012 subject Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord to affordability, and in any event by the end of the next is very knowledgeable in this area, and I take his Parliament. That remains the Government’s position. representation very seriously. We will look at that matter. Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, is there not an argument for switching some of the tax subsidy from Pensioners: Savings SIPPs to ISAs? Would not more people on lower incomes benefit? Question

3pm Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the Government’s approach to savings looks at incentives right across Asked By Baroness Seccombe the life cycle, so we see ISAs as a key way, apart from To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action pensions, to incentivise savings for working-age people. they have taken to alleviate pensioner poverty arising There are gateway proposals to help people on lower from the fall in savings income and interest rates. incomes to get into a savings culture, and child trust 953 Pensioners: Savings[9 MARCH 2009] Representation of the People Regs. 2009 954 funds to help young people start off life with a little and the liability value in DB pension schemes. We nest-egg and get involved in savings later on, we hope. maintain the position, however, that pension savings Substantial tax reliefs are already available for pension need to be looked at over the longer term; that is the savings, which is the right balance, particularly at the right sort of judgment. current time when we need to do all that we can to make sure that people see the benefit of savings generally Arrangement of Business and, in particular, the benefit of savings through pension Announcement arrangements. 3.08 pm Lord Fearn: My Lords, will any pressure be brought Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, with the leave upon the banks in which the Government have taken a of the House we will have two Statements repeated stake to increase pensioners’ income by increasing the today. Immediately after the Second Reading of the interest rate? By that, I mean all pensioners rather Northern Ireland Bill, my noble friend the Leader of than a few. It is all right to talk about fuel poverty, but the House will repeat a Statement on Northern Ireland, this is about no one particular thing; it is about what followed by my noble friend Lord Myners, who will they have saved up for their whole lives. repeat a Statement entitled “Banking: Asset Protection Scheme”. We will then resume proceedings on the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, it should not Marine and Coastal Access Bill. be part of the process of engaging with the banks in which the Government have substantial interests to Business of the House direct a particular interest-rate policy toward pensioners rather than addressing general market issues. There Motion on Standing Orders are, obviously, much more substantial issues for the 3.08 pm banking sector, in getting money flowing into the economy and making sure that depositors feel and Moved By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon know that their deposits are safe. That, in the event of the Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill being brought from the Commons, Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, some three weeks Standing Order 41 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) ago, on a Starred Question from the noble Baroness, be dispensed with on Thursday 12 March to allow Lady Greengross, I put to the Minister the Conservatives’ the Bill to be taken before the motion in the name commitment to abolish income tax on savings for of Baroness Gould of Potternewton and that Standing basic-rate taxpayers and to raise the pensioner’s personal Order 47 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one allowance by £2,000. The Minister gave me a rather day) be dispensed with to allow it to be taken throwaway answer, saying, “Well, my Lords, we will through its remaining stages that day. have to cost it”. What work have the Government put in hand to achieve that costing? Motion agreed. Health and Social Care Act 2008 Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity of a supplementary question on (Registration of Regulated Activities) that matter. From April 2010, 60 per cent of pensioners Regulations 2009 over the age of 65 will pay no income tax. The Conservative policy would, therefore, presumably be Motion to Approve skewed toward helping the better-off. I understand 3.09 pm that the proposed funding for the arrangements is Moved By Baroness Morgan of Drefelin something like £5 billion, cut from public expenditure; in particular, that £2,000 increase in the personal That the draft regulations laid before the House allowance would cost around £1.3 billion. on 12 January be approved. Relevant Document: 3rd Report from the Joint Lord Higgins: My Lords, is it not completely wrong Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in that neither this House nor the other place has had Grand Committee on 4 March. any opportunity to debate the unprecedented Statement Motion agreed. last week by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on authorising the Bank of England to issue something European Parliamentary Elections like £150 billion of new money? That will seriously affect interest rates. Also, have the Government estimated (Franchise of Relevant Citizens of the the extent to which that action will further reduce the Union) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 few remaining final-salary schemes as a result of its effect on their balance sheets? Representation of the People (Amendment) Regulations 2009 Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this supplementary seems some way from the original Motions to Approve Question, but I will try to help the noble Lord. 3.09 pm Quantitative easing is about trying to get money flowing back into the economy. As for the specific impact on Moved By Lord Davies of Oldham pensions, it is likely to have an impact on gilt prices—in That the draft regulations laid before the House the short term, at least—and, therefore, on gilt yields on 26 and 28 January be approved. 955 Representation of the People Regs. 2009[LORDS] Northern Ireland Bill 956

Relevant Document: 5th Report from the Joint to build the political process that has seen Northern Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Ireland move away from that past and towards a new, Grand Committee on 4 March. shared future in which locally elected politicians take decisions for the people of Northern Ireland. This Motions agreed. legislation is certainly significant but it is also historic, because for the first time the parties in Northern Northern Ireland Bill Ireland have come together to decide on the way forward without intervention by the UK or Irish Second Reading Governments. 3.09 pm The agreement announced by the First and Deputy First Ministers on 18 November last year set out a Moved By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon process whose completion would see the transfer of That this Bill be read a second time. policing and justice responsibilities to the Northern Ireland Assembly.Subsequently, the work of the Assembly Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, before I and Executive Review Committee, which is made up move on to the substance of the legislation before the of the four largest parties in the Assembly, considered House today, I wish to mention the tragic events of the the modalities for devolution and made a series of weekend. The attack on Massereene Army base in recommendations in relation to the shape of a new Antrim, which resulted in the cold and deliberate department with responsibility for policing and justice murder of two people and serious injuries to four functions. This report was accepted by the Assembly more, including two civilians, was a shocking reminder after a cross-community vote on 20 January and, of Northern Ireland’s dark past. Following the completion subsequently, the First and Deputy First Ministers of this Second Reading debate, we will have an indicated that they wished the Government to introduce opportunity to debate the contents of a Statement legislation giving effect to those elements of the agreement that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State that required primary legislation. That is the effect of will make shortly in another place. For the time being, this Bill. I am sure that the House will join me in expressing its The Bill ensures that the necessary framework is in condolences to the victims and their families, as well place to enable the continuation of the process set out as to all those affected by this callous attack. by the First and Deputy First Ministers in November. For many years, the political history of Northern It is made in Northern Ireland by the democratically Ireland was one of division. Attacks of the type that elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland. we have seen at the weekend, while no less callous and It will be for these elected representatives to decide cold-blooded, were unfortunately all too common during when the time is right for devolution to take place. the dark days of Northern Ireland. In recent years, That is right and proper. It is for us to ensure that they however, thanks to the Belfast agreement in 1998 and can do so by fulfilling a commitment made to ensure the St Andrews agreement of 2006, the political that the Assembly has the necessary tools to move environment of Northern Ireland has been transformed, forward in a timeframe determined by the Assembly. with the development of firm foundations for a shared future in devolved government. Whenever such significant The Bill does not impose devolution. The process developments take place over a short period of time, by which policing and justice will be devolved has there will always be those who wish to reverse that already been set out by Parliament in Section 4 of the progress, and this is certainly true in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland Act 1998—the triple lock. It will A small minority of people is determined to halt initially require a motion requesting devolution to be the political progress and drag Northern Ireland back tabled by the First and Deputy First Ministers acting to the climate of fear and uncertainty that dominated jointly; that motion will then need to be approved by the political landscape for years, but it will not succeed. the Assembly on a cross-community vote. A series of That small minority has no community support, as orders giving effect to devolution would then be introduced the revulsion towards the weekend’s murders from in Parliament, which will have an opportunity to both sides of the community and all points on the debate these orders and approve them if it so wishes. political spectrum demonstrates. The people of Northern I turn to the detail of the Bill before the House. Ireland are set on a political path and set against the Clause 1 gives effect to Schedule 1, which provides for type of criminality that has dominated our news a new departmental model. This model was set out in programmes over the weekend. That is why it is important the statement by the First and Deputy First Ministers that we are not deterred from that political path, in November last year and in the report of the Assembly which has been carefully constructed over the past and Executive Review Committee, which was approved 12 years. The mindless actions of a tiny minority must by the Assembly in January.As such, we would anticipate not be allowed to place that progress and that new it being the model used to set up the first department future at risk. We must press ahead with the political of justice. However, the legislation does not require it process and the process set out by the First and to be. It simply adds this model to the menu of options Deputy First Ministers in their statement of 18 November. provided by the Northern Ireland Act 1998. It therefore The legislation before the House today represents the increases to eight the number of options that the next stage in that process. Assembly can choose from when it legislates to set up During the past 12 years, this House has seen many a new Northern Ireland department with responsibility pieces of Northern Ireland legislation, most of it for policing and justice functions. The model itself significant and some of it historic, but all of it helping consists of a single minister, nominated by any Member 957 Northern Ireland Bill[9 MARCH 2009] Northern Ireland Bill 958 of the Assembly, elected by a cross-community vote in To my mind, this makes it clear that the fears of the Assembly and removed in the same way. Under some noble Lords relating to both the ease with which this model, the justice Minister would not count towards a justice Minister could be dismissed and the desire to the parties’ allocation of seats on the Executive under do so are unfounded. The Government believe that the d’Hondt formula. the framework, set out by the democratically elected Both the agreement announced by the First and representatives of the people of Northern Ireland, Deputy First Ministers and the Assembly and Executive should be provided to those representatives as an Review Committee explicitly stated that this model option for use in setting up the new justice department. should be subject to a sunset clause that would bring Given the careful consideration that was given to the arrangements to an end by May 2012. The Bill this model both by the First and Deputy First Ministers provides for the department to be automatically dissolved and by the Assembly and Executive Review Committee, on 1 May 2012 unless the Assembly has agreed to and given the belief among the elected representatives continue the arrangements or agreed alternative of the people of Northern Ireland that this is a model arrangements. that they can make work, I hope that noble Lords will I know that in another place concerns were raised see the reasons for the Government providing for this about the mechanism provided in the Bill for the model in the Bill and see fit to support these provisions removal of the justice Minister. It may be helpful if I in the later passage of this legislation. deal with some of those concerns now, although there Clause 2 and Schedules 2 to 6 deal with the will of course be a further opportunity to debate the arrangements for judicial appointments and removals detail of the provisions in Committee. In the models following the devolution of policing and justice. We already provided for in the 1998 Act, there is a symmetry will have a further opportunity to debate these provisions between the methods of appointment and removal. in greater detail in Committee on Wednesday but, For example, under the d’Hondt system, the party’s broadly speaking, the Bill provides for functions relating nominating officer appoints and has the power to to judicial appointments and removals to be exercised remove. The Bill provides for the justice Minister to be by the Judicial Appointments Commission and, in appointed by a cross-community vote and, similarly, some cases, by the Lord Chief Justice and the Northern to be removed by a cross-community vote, reflecting Ireland Judicial Appointments Ombudsman as opposed the same principle of symmetry. to the First and Deputy First Ministers, as had previously However, the most important point for noble Lords been envisaged. In particular cases, important roles to consider in relation to this issue is that the methods also remain for the Prime Minister and the Lord of appointment and removal were explicitly recommended Chancellor. by the Assembly committee report that was approved The agreement between the First and Deputy First by the Assembly. At a time when we are continuing to Ministers last November stated that these arrangements try to build confidence among the people of Northern would be temporary and that permanent arrangements Ireland, which will enable us to move towards the would need to be put in place by May 2012. Schedule 6 devolution of policing and justice, it is vital that we are provides for this by placing a requirement on an able to provide as stable a system as possible for the Assembly committee to review the arrangements put justice Minister. I recognise that there are those, including in place by the Bill and to make recommendations some in this Chamber, who consider this method of before 1 May 2012. It also places a freeze on any new removal as evidence of a lack of stability for the appointments to the Judicial Appointments Commission justice Minister, but to them I say that surely the best from 1 May 2012, unless and until the Assembly has method of providing a stable framework for the future agreed the future arrangements for judicial appointments administration of justice is to provide the framework and removals. While this freeze will not prevent judicial that the people who will be operating within it feel is appointments from being made, it will result in a sustainable. That is the framework set out by the First significant incentive for the Assembly to agree a way and Deputy First Ministers, recommended by the forward. Assembly and Executive Review Committee and endorsed Clause 3 makes two technical amendments to the by the Assembly in the cross-community vote that post-devolution framework in Northern Ireland. The approved that report. It is a framework that I believe first such amendment is to provide for the current the First and Deputy First Ministers are committed to function of the Attorney-General of Northern Ireland making work. We saw a clear illustration of this when in relation to providing guidance on the disclosure of the Bill was debated in another place last week. The juror information to be split between the Advocate- right honourable Member for Belfast East, speaking General for Northern Ireland and the devolved Attorney- as the First Minister, was categorical in his assertion: General for Northern Ireland after devolution. The “Neither the First nor the Deputy First Minister will wish to Advocate-General will retain responsibility for issuing do anything other than give full support to a Justice Minister, guidance in respect of national security and terrorism- especially a Justice Minister who will have been appointed by a related cases, while the devolved Attorney-General more democratic method than any other Minister in the Executive and who will therefore be harder to dismiss”. will be responsible for all other cases. The division of responsibility reflects the split of the current Attorney- He went on to say: General’s functions that was agreed by Parliament in “If there were any difficulty in the process, of course the the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002. prospective Justice Minister could talk to the First and Deputy First Ministers about what lay ahead to ensure a clear understanding The second amendment, made by Clause 3(2), provides of the nature of any potential removal from the job”.—[Official that the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions Report, Commons, 4/3/09; cols. 940-41.] for Northern Ireland will be a corporation sole. Noble 959 Northern Ireland Bill[LORDS] Northern Ireland Bill 960

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] has come sufficiently far from the circumstances that Lords may not be aware that corporation sole is a legal obtained at the time of the criminal justice review, the status, meaning that the Public Prosecution Service is Assembly will have the opportunity to change the able to hold property in its own right rather than arrangements in the 2002 Act. I do not think that it having it vested in a department on its behalf. would be helpful for this House to seek to impose During the Committee debate in another place, change at this stage in advance of the elected issues were raised in relation to the lines of accountability representatives of Northern Ireland coming to the of both the Director of Public Prosecutions and the conclusion themselves that the time was right. Attorney-General. These are not affected by the Bill, It is still important that the DPP can be held which does not alter the relationships between the accountable by the Assembly. That is right and proper Public Prosecution Service, the Attorney-General and and is provided for in the 2002 Act. While the the Assembly as already provided for by the Justice Assembly will not be able to inquire into individual (Northern Ireland) Act 2002. However, I recognise cases—that would be trespassing too far on the principle that there are concerns regarding this issue and it may of prosecutorial independence—its justice committee help if I set out the reasons why the Government would be able to summon the DPP to give evidence on believe that the existing arrangements, as provided for all matters relating to the financial and administrative by Parliament in the 2002 Act, are right and proper running of the service. In addition, there is provision given the particular circumstances of Northern Ireland. in the 2002 Act for the Assembly to provide an opportunity Your Lordships will recall the significance of the in its Standing Orders for the Attorney-General to criminal justice review of March 2000 which led to the speak and answer questions in the Assembly itself, as 2002 legislation. This review was the most important well as in Assembly committees, although he will not and far-reaching survey of criminal justice in Northern be able to vote. Given the consultative relationship Ireland in over 30 years and flowed from a specific between the Attorney-General and the DPP, this means commitment in the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. that the Attorney can also answer questions relating The review and subsequent legislation enshrined the to prosecution matters, including prosecution policy principle of prosecutorial independence in Northern and systems, although he will not be able to answer Ireland. The review states that, questions relating to individual cases. “in the particular circumstances of Northern Ireland, we believe Another important recommendation of the criminal that this independence should be further strengthened, by ensuring justice review was that the Attorney-General for that the relationship between the Attorney General and the head Northern Ireland should not be a political figure. The of the prosecution service, while containing elements of oversight, 2002 Act provides for the appointment to be made by is consultative and not supervisory. In other words, there should the First and Deputy First Ministers. They have already be no power for the Attorney General to direct the prosecutor, indicated the person whom they would like to appoint, whether in individual cases or on policy matters”. to widespread approval. There has been some I can understand that some noble Lords may question suggestion—we will have an opportunity in Committee whether a review that took place nine years ago remains to debate amendments to this effect tabled by the relevant today given the progress that Northern Ireland noble Lord, Lord Kingsland—that the Attorney should has seen in that period. The approach taken by the be appointed by the Lord Chief Justice rather than by review reflected the particular circumstances of Northern the First and Deputy First Ministers and that the Ireland. However far the politics have come in Northern Attorney should have a more active prosecutorial role. Ireland, it is clear that the circumstances there are still The Government believe that this would be a departure significantly different from those in England and Wales. from the principle of separation of powers, which is a The need for confidence from all sections of the fundamental tenet of the UK’s constitution. The community in all the justice system remains of crucial distinction between the prosecutorial system, which importance, particularly at the point when the Assembly brings cases on behalf of the Crown, and the judiciary, takes on responsibility for that system for the first time which tries those cases impartially and independently, since 1972. The Government firmly believe that this would be frustrated if we moved to a position where fact warrants a different approach being taken in the head of the judiciary appointed the head of the Northern Ireland. prosecution service. In addition, given the Attorney- The 2002 Act, which gave legislative effect to the General’s role as a source of legal advice to the Executive, criminal justice review, was drafted to provide for the it is important that the post is filled by someone who appropriate lines of accountability in the post-devolution has the confidence of both the First Minister and the world. The fact that the process of getting to that Deputy First Minister. The arrangements set out in post-devolution world has taken longer than most of the 2002 Act, reflecting, as they do, the recommendations us anticipated at the time reinforces the need to ensure of the independent criminal justice review, are, in the that these arrangements, designed to create community Government’s view, the right framework in which to confidence in the prosecutorial system, are allowed to place Northern Ireland’s devolved institutions on the continue to bolster those levels of confidence to the right footing when they take on responsibility for point where responsibilities are devolved. The fact policing and justice. that the First and Deputy First Ministers have not Clause 4 extends the scope of the order-making proposed that those arrangements should be changed power in Section 86 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 is an indication, in the Government’s view, that the to enable the possibility of executive functions being time has not yet come to change them. If, at some devolved, even if the legislative competence for the point in the future after we have devolved policing and matter remains reserved. Ultimately, this will allow justice, the Assembly concludes that Northern Ireland Parliament greater flexibility to ensure that responsibility 961 Northern Ireland Bill[9 MARCH 2009] Northern Ireland Bill 962 for certain functions sits at the most appropriate level, should the process of building community confidence while reserving legislative competence for Westminster. continue apace, there is no reason why that decision Parliament will have control over the use to which the should not be taken soon. power is put. All orders made using this power are I know that all of us in this Chamber today have the subject to the affirmative procedure and we will have interests of Northern Ireland at heart. We have spent an opportunity to debate them fully when the time much time over the years debating how best to provide comes. for Northern Ireland and, more recently, celebrating The murderous attack over the weekend has brought the fact that devolution has been restored and that its into sharper focus the continuing threat that Northern elected representatives can, once more, take responsibility Ireland faces from a small minority of people who are for the issues that matter to the people of Northern determined to disrupt the progress made in recent Ireland. This Bill gives effect to the wishes of the years. The shock and revulsion that have been abundantly representatives of those people. It is for that reason clear in all parts of Northern Ireland demonstrate that, notwithstanding the understandable frustration how far we have come in recent years. The greatest that many of your Lordships feel about the limited memorial to the weekend’s victims is to continue with time available to consider the Bill, I am confident that the political process and to show that this minority no one here would want this House to become the will not be allowed to drag the people of Northern stumbling block to progress in Northern Ireland. We Ireland, who are united in their commitment to political have a duty to scrutinise the Bill carefully, but we also progress, back to a time when violence dominated the have a duty to do what is right in the interests of politics of the Province. The progress made by the Northern Ireland. In that spirit, I commend this Bill Northern Ireland Executive must be allowed to continue to the House. I beg to move. and this Bill represents the Government’s support for that progress, giving effect, as it does, to the agreement 3.32 pm of the First and Deputy First Ministers and the Assembly and Executive Review Committee. Lord Glentoran: My Lords, before I address the Before I close my remarks, I shall address a concern Bill, I should like to associate my party with the that I know is shared by a number of noble Lords opening remarks of the noble Baroness the Lord about the time allocated to consider this legislation in President in relation to the awful happenings on Saturday. this House. That concern is recognised by the Government. Although it is not much use, let the families and However, it is not for the sake of the Government that friends of the dead and seriously wounded know that we have sought to push this Bill through Parliament our thoughts and hearts are with them today. There is on a reduced timeframe; it has not been done for the a Statement later on that happening and anything simple sake of expediency. The Belfast agreement of political that comes from it, so I do not propose to 1998 set out the Government’s support for the principle dwell on it at this moment. of the devolution of policing and justice. That support What I am about to say is not in any way concerned was augmented by the St Andrews agreement, which with the noble Baroness the Lord President and the set out the Government’s belief that the implementation noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General. of that agreement should be sufficient to build the From our side, and certainly from my point of view, community confidence necessary for the Assembly to this has been the worst handled Northern Ireland Bill request the transfer of policing and justice powers by that in the 10 years that I have been doing this job I May 2008. The Government gave a commitment that have ever been associated with. We are rushing a they would do all that they could to facilitate progress complex and hugely important Bill, which is vital to and to ensure that the necessary enabling legislation the constitution, and which invokes parts of something would be in place to ensure that, when the Assembly like six Northern Ireland Acts that need to be read and felt ready to request the transfer of responsibilities, understood even to start to understand this Bill. The that transfer could take place expeditiously. That Bill had something like six hours, including the programme commitment stands, which is why it is important that Motion debate, in the other place. If you read Hansard, we do all that we can to ensure that we expedite the there is only one conclusion that you can come to. I path of this Bill. dare not use the language that I would use outside the House, but it was not a very good conclusion. Of course, your Lordships will know that, in making this comment, I do not discount the vital importance I thank the noble Baroness the Lord President and of ensuring that Parliament has the opportunity to the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General scrutinise carefully the legislation before it. I recognise for the huge assistance they gave to me, to my party that that opportunity has been curtailed in this case, and eventually to all your Lordships in getting out although I hope that the briefings given by my right briefings and laying on meetings to help us understand honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern what this Bill is about, what it is doing, why it is Ireland and his officials have been of assistance to needed, where it is coming from and where it is hoping noble Lords and have helped that process of consideration, to go to. I do not understand why we had to rush it all even given the reduced timeframe in which the process through. It will not be rushed through once it leaves has taken place. However, the Government believe here but the Secretary of State is the Secretary of State that it is correct that the people of Northern Ireland, and we have to live with him while he is there. through their Assembly, should be able to move forward There are a number of areas of the Bill about which with the devolution of policing and justice at a pace we are not happy. Thanks to the support of my noble determined by them. While a final decision on when friend Lord Kingsland, the Government now fully devolution should take place has not yet been reached, understand our worries. We just need to make sure 963 Northern Ireland Bill[LORDS] Northern Ireland Bill 964

[LORD GLENTORAN] within the Northern Ireland departmental system. I that they stay up front. If it passes through this House, understand the arguments that I have been given by the Bill will go back to the Northern Ireland Assembly. the Attorney-General and I understand why we are One of the things that concerns me—made even more where we are but the fact that the Attorney-General worrying after Saturday night—is the state of the for Northern Ireland will be appointed by the First structure and organisation of criminal justice and Minister and Deputy First Minister means that he policing in Northern Ireland. I believe that the criminal cannot be independent of politics. Northern Ireland justice system, the judiciary and so on are in good being what it is, things soon swings into, “Your turn, shape. I have been assured of that by the Attorney- my turn”. General, who is the Attorney-General for Northern We were also unhappy about the supervision and Ireland. I know that she has had an interest in Northern support of the DPP. There has been no criticism Ireland for many years. However, I am seriously concerned whatever from me or my party of how the DPP has about the police and the security forces as a whole. operated in any way; it has been superb. However, we The Northern Ireland Assembly, if it pursues one feel that it needs supervision. The DPP needs support of these options and asks for devolution, will be and, at times, some management; in the rest of this inheriting a police force with a chief constable who is kingdom, the DPPs have both support and management. retiring—or being moved—a deputy chief constable We have tabled a number of amendments, which who is heading for retirement and an overdraft or debt will be considered later. However, we in my party have in the police budget of more than £50 million. discussed this Bill at length—for a considerably longer Furthermore, the Government have required the police time than it spent in another place—and we have done service to save £350 million over the next three years so with Ministers and the noble Baronesses on the and that overtime is reduced by 51 per cent. Considering Front Bench. We believe that in the situation that the security situation in Northern Ireland as of today Northern Ireland finds itself in and where we are, we and last week and indeed for some time—it was quite should let the Bill go through. We also support whatever some time before the chief constable shouted for help— is required to keep criminal justice and policing on the that is not a good state in which to hand over something road. as important to a community as its policing. I want to know whether the Government plan to ensure that when it comes to devolving the police and criminal 3.43 pm justice system, they are devolving a top-rate, on-top- Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, I thank the Lord of-the-job well-funded organisation. President for introducing this Bill. I associate these We recognise that the Bill does not itself deliver the Benches with the condolences that have been expressed devolution of criminal justice and policing. The Bill over the killings of the two soldiers and the best merely creates an eighth model of how justice powers wishes for the full recovery of others who were wounded could be devolved if and when the Assembly feels able at the Massereene barracks in Antrim on Saturday to agree. That is a matter, rightly, for the MLAs in last. Northern Ireland to decide. However, powers should These atrocities serve to support the arguments I be transferred from this Parliament only when three shall adopt regarding the need to strengthen the position criteria have been met. First, all parties represented in of the proposed Minister of Justice. The Bill before us the Executive should be committed to pursuing their today is the latest in a series of attempts by the objectives by exclusively peaceful and democratic means. Government and the Executive in Northern Ireland to Having heard and read some of the comments of Sinn get the mechanics right when devolving policing and Fein politicians near the top of the police board as justice matters to the Assembly. It provides yet another well as Adams and company, I do not believe that they model for a department of policing and justice to add support the PSNI other than cynically because it suits to those introduced by the Northern Ireland them to use it to pursue their own political agenda, (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 and the Justice which is not the political agenda of all the people of and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007. Northern Ireland. As has been said, the Bill does not give details of Secondly, all parties should fully support in word what powers will be devolved to the Assembly, nor and deed the criminal justice system, including the does it tell us when this is likely to happen. In that police and courts. Thirdly, such a transfer of power regard, therefore, the Government cannot claim that should command support across the community, as this is “emergency” legislation that should be rushed expressed through Northern Ireland’s political through this House and the other place in a matter of representatives. days. The Lord President’s explanation is less than satisfactory. When the Bill was debated in the House We have always made it clear that any devolution of of Commons, there was a great deal of anger that it policing and justice powers must preserve the operational had been rushed through so quickly. It may be urgent, independence of the chief constable and his officers. If but surely not so urgent that adequate time cannot be power had been devolved and the chief constable had provided between the discussions on the Bill in both asked for support from the SRR, I wonder whether Houses. This is a complex piece of legislation, as the the Assembly would have been able to give it to him or noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, emphasised when he would he still have the power even to ask for it? referred to previous Northern Ireland Acts that In terms of how the Bill is presented, we are not subsequently were amended many times. We, too, are happy that the Director of Public Prosecutions for grateful to officials for providing a copy of the consolidated Northern Ireland is independent of a parent department legislation, and for their assistance with our queries on 965 Northern Ireland Bill[9 MARCH 2009] Northern Ireland Bill 966 the Bill. Nevertheless, more time for consideration of anything less than as optimal as can be contrived. To the Bill would have been welcome, as would notice of state simply that the Minister who is in charge of one the meeting that took place today at 1 pm with the of the most contentious and critical departments can Attorney-General and the Lord President. I became be dismissed in the same way as other members of the aware of that on the train coming down, and could Executive ignores the special circumstances that not attend. surround this portfolio. The Liberal Democrats are a devolutionist party. Policing and justice functions are different in Northern For many years, we have supported and promoted the Ireland. Indeed, they are so different that the parties principle of devolving policing and justice powers to that currently compose the Executive believe that they the Assembly. We want a local Minister to take should look outside themselves to find a person who responsibility for local aspects of the criminal justice can fulfil the role of Minister of Justice. It is not the system. That would be a major step in the normalisation function of the Bill or of this House to appoint the process in Northern Ireland and could be regarded as first Minister of Justice. That responsibility lies with the final piece in the jigsaw puzzle of the peace process. politicians in the Assembly. However, it has been Several measures have already been put in place to rumoured—indeed this was discussed in the other provide greater transparency and accountability in place—that the First and Deputy First Minister are operational matters; now they need to be entrenched looking to the Alliance Party to fill such a role. To in an Executive Minister who has been elected by local place an Alliance Minister in a position where he or people. she can be so easily removed from this office is completely unacceptable. There is no equivalence between a Minister However, we must not underestimate the challenges who has to retain only the confidence of his party that face Northern Ireland in the areas of policing and nominating officer and a Minister elected by the Assembly justice. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, mentioned as a whole, as the Justice Minister will be. The words some of them, including, crucially, the financial matters of the First Minister, Peter Robinson, speaking in the that must be clarified, particularly in relation to the other place last week, were welcome, but unless his number of police officers, given the current threat by intentions are enshrined in legislation they cannot dissident Republicans—a threat described by the chief provide, unfortunately, the necessary comfort that is constable as being at the highest level for a decade. required. We do not doubt his sincerity when he The atrocities at the Massereene barracks at the weekend stated, as the Lord President has already quoted: fully validate Sir Hugh Orde’s grave assessment of the current security situation. We must also address the “Neither the First nor the Deputy First Minister will wish to do anything other than give full support to a Justice Minister”.— increasing financial pressures on the prison estate, [Official Report, Commons, 4/3/09; col. 940.] with a growing prison population and tougher sentences, and the matter of legal aid. Nevertheless, we believe We also did not doubt the sincerity of the former that these issues should be decided at a local level by a Prime Minister, Tony Blair, when he pledged to the local Minister. In so far as the Bill helps the Assembly people of Northern Ireland in May 1998 that paramilitary to achieve that aim, we support it. prisoners would be kept in prison unless and until violence was given up for good. Indeed, I was present Our difficulty, of which the noble Baroness is well aware when he made that pledge at the Coleraine campus of and to which she has alluded, lies with Schedule 1 to the University of Ulster, being the vice-chancellor of the Bill, and in particular with the provision dealing the university at that time. However, despite the sincerity with the removal of a Minister from office. The schedule of the then Prime Minister, as the statement was not proposes that a Minister of Justice can be removed enshrined in the Northern Ireland Act 1998, we all saw simply by a cross-community vote in the Assembly. that it was impossible to insist that the promise was The Secretary of State may argue that this is the kept. As it turned out, it was not, and prisoners were procedure for the removal of any other Assembly released without the pre-condition of arms being Minister. However, that would be to ignore the political decommissioned. implications of this part of the Bill. Similarly, as the recent Constitution Committee We have warned Ministers previously not to look report on the surveillance society highlighted, Mr Charles upon policing in Northern Ireland as being in any way Clarke, when Minister of State in the Home Office, comparable to other ministries there. Northern Ireland categorically stated that anti-terrorism laws would not policing has a different dimension. There are special be used for other purposes. In fact, as the committee arrangements, including human rights compliance and noted, such laws have been used by local authorities as structures for oversight and accountability. The fact well as by central government for other purposes. that we are debating yet another model for a Ministry Ministerial assurances have to be discounted in the of Justice in Northern Ireland, in addition to the light of the experience of these examples; they have various other models that are on the statute book, been debased so that now little confidence can be emphasises that this is not just “any other Ministry”. placed on them. The model in effect implies that, for something as It is also worth remembering that, in a cross-community important as policing in Northern Ireland, there must vote, the vote of a member of the Alliance Party is be special arrangements. We must create an entirely worth less than that of a member of the DUP, Sinn new department, outside the 10 departments that already Fein, the SDLP or the UUP. The vote of an Alliance exist in the Assembly, to accommodate such weighty Party member does not count in the stage which functions. The model suggests that, although we have requires 50 per cent of unionists voting and 50 per looked at how such a Ministry should be structured, cent of nationalists voting, as they are neither unionist we have not yet got it right. This is too important to be nor nationalist. Is it right that they could be removed 967 Northern Ireland Bill[LORDS] Northern Ireland Bill 968

[LORD SMITH OF CLIFTON] evening do not enhance the prospects for early devolution from such a fundamental position by a mechanism of policing and justice and the restoration of the that does not even treat them as equal to other parties confidence of the community. in the Executive? No other party would accept such an It is ironic, however, that unionists in the past onerous task under such disadvantageous circumstances. fought to have policing and justice powers. This goes We cannot expect Alliance to do so either. Accordingly, right back to the setting up of Stormont and the days when we come to discuss the Bill in Committee, we of Carson and Craigavon. They were particularly shall move amendments to rectify this provision. strong and insisted that the Stormont Parliament had them. It is also a reality that another unionist prime minister refused to continue with devolution when 3.52 pm those powers were taken away, stating that a Parliament Lord Morrow: My Lords, it is right and proper that without them was not worth having. My party has I should preface my remarks by referring to the dreadful always made that clear; indeed, we fought elections atrocity which happened in Northern Ireland on Saturday and sought and got a mandate on such issues. We evening. I am, of course, referring to the murder of made three commitments. One was that we support two soldiers in Massereene barracks in County Antrim. the principle of devolution of policing and justice I find it extremely difficult to use the proper words on functions. We always said it could happen only when such an occasion. I am very conscious that whatever there is sufficient confidence within the community. words I might use, they will fall far short of what Furthermore, we do not believe there would be support should be said. I am sure that every Member of the for the devolution of such powers to a Sinn Fein House is utterly revolted and repulsed about what Minister in the foreseeable future. It may be important happened on Saturday evening in Northern Ireland. that policing and justice are devolved to Northern To the two young soldiers’ families, I extend my sincere Ireland, but what is more important is that, when that and heartfelt sympathy. Our thoughts and prayers are day eventually comes, we get them right, rather than with them. To those who were seriously injured, we getting them soon. The requirements for the devolution trust that they will make a speedy recovery. They did of policing and justice are threefold: that it is done in not deserve this by any standards. It is most sickening the right way, at the right time and under the right and downright appalling. circumstances. Some may recall that when I spoke in the House In conclusion, I would like to draw the attention of just over a week ago, I said that Northern Ireland had the House to what the Bill is not about. This is come a long way. However, I sounded a note of important. The Bill will not devolve policing and caution and said that it had much further to go before justice. There is a triple lock before that can happen, we could have confidence that normality had returned. which has already been referred to. I draw the attention Sadly, this murderous attack confirmed our very worst of the House to this because it is vital, in particular to fears. However, none of us could have anticipated the those of us from the unionist community. Parliament horrific callousness and ruthlessness of what happened has already set out arrangements for that—I refer to on Saturday evening. my notes because I want these important points on the Just last week, the PSNI chief constable, Sir Hugh record—in Section 4 of the 1998 Act. They depend on Orde, was severely criticised after making it known the triple lock, whereby a Motion requesting devolution that he was forced to return the Special Reconnaissance needs to be tabled in the Assembly by the First and Regiment to the Province due to the possibility of an Deputy First Ministers acting jointly. After that, the attack. Sadly, his worst fears were confirmed. It is a Motion would need to be approved by a cross-community tragedy that there were politicians within Northern vote in the Assembly. The Secretary of State would Ireland who denounced the chief constable for his then bring transfer-matter orders before Parliament in actions. I trust that today, on reflection, they will see Westminster for approval and debate. The Bill—this is the folly of their words as two young soldiers lie dead significant and very important—will not impose and others seriously injured, including civilians. devolution on the majority if it later chooses not to exercise that power. I believe that the House is looking Turning to the issue before the House today, in for an assurance today from the Minister that there general, my noble friend Lord Browne and I will be will be no attempt whatever to impose the devolution supporting the principles of the Bill. Its introduction of policing and justice on the Northern Ireland Assembly. represents significant advancement and will, I hope, grow the confidence of communities in Northern Ireland 4pm in seeing policing and justice matters devolved, eventually, to the Northern Ireland Assembly. I should say that Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, it is with a that is in keeping with the St. Andrews agreement. My heavy heart that I begin by referring to the brutal party is acutely aware of the sensitivities around the murder by IRA rebels of two of our soldiers and to devolution of policing and justice to the Northern the injuries of four others, including a local pizza Ireland Assembly. I wish to state emphatically that the delivery lad and a migrant worker. There has been so unionist community, in particular, would not accept much evil and so much similar bloodshed over the Sinn Fein being in charge of policing and justice. Of past 40 years, what can one say to the families of those course, the nub of the requirement is that whoever left behind? I feel so much for them, and for all those holds the position has support across the community others whose old wounds have been opened yet again. as a whole. As events in Northern Ireland progress, we Since I participated in the formulation of the Belfast are hopeful that that will eventually arrive. It should agreement almost 11 years ago, my party and I have be said that events such as what happened on Saturday paid a heavy price politically. Yet we are still proud 969 Northern Ireland Bill[9 MARCH 2009] Northern Ireland Bill 970 that all those difficult decisions that we made were I am, for better or for worse, a committed devolutionist made openly and honestly and had, until now, given who believes that progress must be built on a firm our community a chance to bring tit-for-tat politically foundation. That is an objective I share with my party motivated killings to an end. Subsequently, the same and, I believe, with the SDLP. It is also worth noting selfishness that has brought this great nation to its that the SDLP voted against the substantive motion knees economically has continued to pervade our fragile last Wednesday in another place, whereas the DUP peace, as people secretly and in ignorance tinker around appears to have voted according to its secret arrangement with what those years of tragic experience helped us to with Sinn Fein. But my opposition to the precipitate create out of the mayhem. action of the Government in this matter has less to do with politics than with practicalities. It is time to look In the circumstances, it is ironic and tragic that we at the situation with which a still tetchy and suspicious come here today to be asked to build on the selfishness community would have to deal and I ask noble Lords and deceit that began at St Andrews and has been not to be misled by talk of a process that can trundle compounded by what are now referred to as the two up to 1 May 2012. It is, I am convinced, part of a deal major parties in Northern Ireland. Those parties are between the Secretary of State’s office and Sinn Fein working out of little more than electoral self-interest that matters can be decided in the five weeks between and in cahoots with the Secretary of State for Northern the European election on 5 June and this House going Ireland, whose briefing, which was conveyed to Members into recess for the summer. Is it not a tactic of this of this House last week, was so flawed, misleading and Government to use the recess as a cover for bereft of substance as to be offensive. unpleasantness? That is why we are being rushed here We are led to believe by the Secretary of State that today.We can be assured that there is no other justification the Bill, which has been rushed in its entirety through and I only hope that my words of opposition will another place in a single sitting and is to be dealt with frustrate such an irresponsible intention. in your Lordships’ House in a mere two sittings, is not What even suggests that the timing for devolution really about any precipitate movement towards the of policing and justice is feasible? We have a chief devolution of policing and justice in Northern Ireland; constable who has just this week concealed from his it is simply a means of providing another option in police board the fact that he sought to mobilise a that process for our devolved Assembly. special intelligence resource because the threat from The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland said in dissident republicans is so great. I have no problem his briefing that the Bill was to reflect agreement with such measures and I expect the same level of between the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister security as in any other part of the United Kingdom. on 18 November 2008, and as taken through the But I do not expect a conspiracy between the chief Assembly with cross-community endorsement on constable and the Secretary of State that gives the very 20 January this year after consideration of a report by people who threaten us publicity, sympathy, status and the Assembly and Executive Review Committee. He a raison d’etre. From our brief interaction with the went on: Secretary of State for Northern Ireland last Monday, it is clear that he knows nothing of the psychology of “In that sense, the Bill not only enjoys confidence, but has anti-terrorist warfare. ‘Made in Northern Ireland’ stamped firmly on it”.—[Official Report, Commons, 4/3/09; col. 856.] If even the police board cannot be trusted with this level of information, why is it there? Of greater relevance, Let me share the real facts with noble Lords. I do why, if that is their attitude, would the chief constable not know, nor I suspect does anyone else, exactly what and the Secretary of State consider devolving total deal was conjured up between Peter Robinson and responsibility to the Assembly? It is time for this Martin McGuinness during and subsequent to the House to have straight answers to those questions, and irresponsible and disgraceful 150-day moratorium of I have sympathy with the Lord President in so far as the Assembly Executive, but I do know that when the the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has dropped letter conveying the Robinson/McGuinness deal to the her in the unenviable situation of having to justify his Assembly and Executive Review Committee was placed inadequacy. before the Executive “to be noted”, at least two Executive members voted against it. For absolute clarity, it is We are being asked to make provision for policing, worth adding that there has not been any formal obviously with the acquiescence of our chief constable, discussion on the devolution of policing and justice, who recently told an All-Party Parliamentary Group or the methodology to be employed, at the Executive. on Northern Ireland that I attended how he had such It is exclusively a deal between Sinn Fein and the an efficient force that he did not need to know what DUP in which the Secretary of State for Northern was happening on a day-to-day basis. For nearly three Ireland is complicit, but of which others know virtually years he has publicised the threat from dissident nothing. republicans like a recruiting sergeant but, by admission, cannot and does not keep a record of their capture I am further aware that there was not a unanimous and convictions. Can you imagine? This was the chief report from the Assembly and Executive Review constable who told us that he had so little police Committee. At least three review committee members resources that the PSNI might have to cease recruiting; voted against the report. It is a fact that only 51 out of who admitted that he was short of more than 108 Assembly Members voted in favour—47 per cent 400 detectives; who told us publicly that the PSNI was of Ulster Unionists and the SDLP voted against and no longer investigating the £26 million theft from the others abstained. Therefore, was the report “made in Northern Bank, the brutal McCartney murder or the Northern Ireland”? My answer is hardly so. Omagh bomb; and who, with the Office of the Director 971 Northern Ireland Bill[LORDS] Northern Ireland Bill 972

[LORD MAGINNIS OF DRUMGLASS] be endlessly and hopelessly reproduced. There is of Public Prosecutions, has not succeeded in any of infinitesimal support, if any at all, for the first, yet those three trials. We are being asked to prepare to there is overwhelming support for the second. As this devolve that sort of poisoned chalice. Bill comes forward, the response to the disgusting It is worth noting that, since the DUP/Sinn Fein crimes of two days ago should be one of steadiness secret deal in November, almost every question that I and calm judgment, as well, of course, as one of firm have asked about policing has been deemed an resolve. “operational matter”, not worthy of a proper answer. That said, my first reaction to this Bill, which I On 29 January, in a follow-up Question, I asked how support in general for the reasons that have been the source of Semtex explosives used by the dissident given, was one of sympathy with the parliamentary IRA could be deemed “an operational intelligence draftsman. It bears all the marks of ministerial instructions matter” and who decided to classify it so, when the of the “hurry, hurry, go faster” type. When these information I sought was already known by the police, necessitate the copious and piecemeal amendment of the Provisional IRA and by dissident IRA activists. I complete Acts that have themselves been similarly was told that it was the view of the Secretary of State amended, perhaps more than once, then, for the for Northern Ireland that this was an operational draftsman, Pelion is indeed piled upon Ossa. matter. Who so advised him? Is it not a contradiction for the chief constable to publicly analyse day after For the same reason, my second reaction—it was day, week after week, dissident IRA capability without second only by a short head—was one of sympathy making any apparent inroads against them, while, with all who have to construe and implement the arbitrarily, the Secretary of State decides that result. The Bill is user-hostile. Its clauses are beguilingly parliamentarians should be kept in the dark? few in number, a mere five, but the devil is in the schedules, which take up 28 pages. Examples of their I know a little about anti-terrorist operations, yet thicket-like quality abound—I take this instance from neither the Secretary of State nor the chief constable page 7, lines 33 to 37: would ever think it worth asking me to meet them, but I bet that they meet Sinn Fein the moment it crooks its “After paragraph 12 insert … ‘13 … Paragraphs 3(10), 3D(14), little finger. Therefore, how could I or anyone accede 7(10), 11(10) and (11) and 11E(10) of this Schedule shall have effect subject to paragraphs 2 and 3 of Schedule 12A (as those to the terms of this Bill brought before us today under paragraphs are modified at any time by virtue of paragraph 12 of such duplicitous and ill contrived circumstances? this Schedule)’.”. I feel that this daunting quality is not the fault of 4.12 pm the draftsman; it is the inevitable consequence of the Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, it is a privilege haste with which the Government have required this to follow the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, who has work to be done; haste which was matched by the time devoted his entire public life, in uniform and in politics, within which they required Parliament to pass this to countering sectarianism in Northern Ireland and to Bill. The timetable simply is not long enough to allow furthering an honourable peace there. His speech today this House at least to do its proper job of scrutiny and will repay careful reading. He will forgive me if I do revision, valuably though the Bill team has endeavoured not propose to follow it today. with Ministers to help some of us understand the Bill’s provisions and their effect. The Government might Until last Saturday night, 12 years had passed since well take to heart the reaction of the Select Committee the most recent murder of a soldier in Northern on the Constitution in this House, which reported Ireland. There was some reassurance, so many of us only a few days ago and whose findings I shall leave to felt, to be had from the fact that that at least was the its chairman, my noble friend Lord Goodlad, to relate. case. That soldier was young Lance Bombardier Restorick, of the Royal Artillery, murdered by the IRA using a Ministers say that the justification for this haste is high velocity point 5 bore sniper’s rifle in a carefully the need to keep up the momentum of the devolution planned attack—as carefully planned, I would guess, process, that momentum will be lost unless, by the as last Saturday night’s attack. The calm and constructive summer Recess, the Assembly will have been able to courage shown thereafter by his parents remain an decide what use if any to make of the additional especially poignant memory. devolution model which the Bill is designed to offer it and what course to take in the light of that decision. Today, I reckon that, for all of us, our discussion of They point out that it was only on 18 November last this Bill is overshadowed by the murder of two more year that the First and Deputy First Ministers reached soldiers in County Antrim and the wounding of others the highly significant agreement which could be fulfilled already referred to, including civilians, by the so-called only be detailed legislation. Real IRA. I say so-called because, to my mind, they are not real Irish people or real republicans, and I do not think that that justification stands up. certainly they are not a real army. There could scarcely Momentum is not an end in itself. When dealing with exist a more stark contrast between, on the one hand, a topic as sensitive and controversial as the devolution the motives and methods of the perpetrators of this of policing and criminal justice in Northern Ireland, crime and, on the other, the motives and methods of which has a highly litigious as well as a still-divided those leaders whose political agreement has led to the society, it would be wiser for the Government to get formulation of this Bill. On the one side is the violent their legislative tackle reliably in order even at the cost and murderous rejection of a future for Northern of a couple of extra months. Like patriotism, momentum Ireland based on consent and the rule of law; on the is not enough, and I add my protest to those that have other, the rejection of a future in which the past would been made both here and in the other place. 973 Northern Ireland Bill[9 MARCH 2009] Northern Ireland Bill 974

We are nevertheless where we are, however reluctantly. the Lord Chief Justice, and supervision were restored, Having served in my time as both the Attorney-General suspicions of bias would be significantly abated. for Northern Ireland and then Secretary of State, I am Accordingly, if my noble friends were to move such an driven to focus on the Bill’s provisions for the relationship amendment, I could see the point of that and would between the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland think it entirely justifiable. It comes down to a question and the DPP for Northern Ireland. of judgment concerning the atmosphere in Northern Ireland today. Either way, I shall be content to support For my part, I have always been a convinced upholder the Bill which does not deliver devolution of criminal of the merits of the structure that operates in this justice and policing but usefully offers further paving country. The Attorney-General has a statutory duty along the way. to superintend the DPP, whom she appoints, and over whom she has a power of direction—a power that I believe not to have been exercised in modern times but 4.24 pm which remains available. That arrangement has been Baroness O’Neill of Bengarve: My Lords, at the end on the statute book since the 1880s and continues to of last week we perhaps expected to have this debate in work very well. The prime reason for my support for it an atmosphere where we felt that things were moving has lain in the fact that Parliament will on occasion forward in Northern Ireland. Like other noble Lords, want to examine a particular prosecuting decision or I have been saddened, disappointed and outraged by event, and that rightly it will consider itself entitled to the events last Saturday at Massereene barracks. Despite a degree of fair accountability. Similarly, it may be the warnings by the chief constable, no one could have right—I have personal experience of this—for the anticipated them. In that circumstance, this Bill could Attorney-General to go before the House of Commons, have expected a favourable wind. After all, on the or the House of Lords, and explain why a particular surface it comes with cross-community support and action has taken place, why it has occurred and to set cross-party support here. I broadly support it, and the record straight. others have given very good reasons for supporting it. Parliament will not be satisfied with the attendance However, the wind is also blowing from a different of a mere messenger; it will require to hear from the quarter, and the reason is the outrage expressed by person with whom ultimate responsibility lies. That several noble Lords—and with great eloquence in person should accordingly be a Member of one House another place— about the way in which this measure or the other and have the right of audience. Merely has been brought forward. This is a constitutional Bill; being questioned as a witness, which will be possible it is not a piece of small, secondary legislation, but under the Bill’s arrangements, is not the same, nor is it constitutional legislation for a situation that is still enough. Given the general acceptance of the complex and intricate. It is not merely that the other fundamentally important convention that the Attorney- place was offered spectacularly little time to debate it, General acts quasi-judicially, this has always seemed to but that none of us—despite the great assistance received be the best practicable arrangement. I believe that it served from officials—was given the time needed to see how equally well in Northern Ireland under direct rule. the various pieces of legislation referred to will interact. I am sure that others have spent the weekend with cold Devolution in Northern Ireland inevitably can be or hot towels, according to preference, getting their expected to bring to the fore suspicions and assertions minds around how these provisions interact. I want to of political bias in prosecutorial decisions. Such is the return to the question: why the haste? In some ways, invasive character of the prosecuting arm of the state that lies close to the surface at this point. that it is highly important to protect the DPP as far as In the other place, two distinct reasons were given practicable from these suspicions and from the attacks for the haste. It is always a bit worrying when two that will foreseeably be based on them. These suspicions reasons that pull in quite different ways are given for can expect to be further fed if the Attorney-General the same policy. One reason is that there was no for Northern Ireland is appointed politically by the parliamentary time, but that does not stand up to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister jointly, as is evidence. We know that it has been many weeks, provided for by the 2002 Act. indeed months, since the First Minister and the Deputy The criminal justice review, to which that Act gave First Minister reached agreement; it has been nearly effect, took the view that the atmosphere in Northern two months since the Assembly came to an agreement, Ireland was so highly charged that the DPP should be and there has, presumably, been liaison and contact made wholly independent of ministerial supervision. between the Secretary of State and what was going on At that difficult time for Northern Ireland I agreed in Northern Ireland. Nevertheless, we find the plea with that, albeit reluctantly given my strong support made that, in this rather lighter parliamentary Session, for what works so well in England and Wales, and there was no time to do otherwise. That point was which I continue to believe is the ideal. Accountability made not just on one occasion, but again and again. remains of huge importance, as does public confidence Beside that, a quite different reason was given for in the system. Since 2002 we have seen the passage of this unseemly haste by the Secretary of State and seven years, which has been a generally positive period expanded on by the previous Secretary of State, the in which significant political progress towards devolution right honourable Peter Hain: that this is a matter of and peace has been made. In these differing circumstances keeping the momentum. That metaphor comes, I think, today, I am inclined to believe that if the Attorney-General from bicycle riding; most of us, if we lose our speed were to be appointed by the Judicial Appointments aboard a bicycle, tend to fall off. That metaphor of Commission, or rather recommended by the commission momentum may have had its place in negotiations and appointed thereafter as a matter of convention by among parties reluctant to reach agreement; however, 975 Northern Ireland Bill[LORDS] Northern Ireland Bill 976

[BARONESS O’NEILL OF BENGARVE] that sufficient public confidence would eventually exist on this occasion, it has none. We are not in a situation in Northern Ireland to allow the early devolution of of negotiation among highly divided parties which significant powers to the locally accountable legislative have to be cajoled and goaded toward agreement. This Assembly. is a parliamentary process and a constitutional Bill. I The devolution of policing and justice is not an do not see why momentum provides a reason for aspirational desire. These matters are an essential cog haste. On the contrary, the assumption that momentum of government, without which the long-term devolution is at stake here has served us ill. It has meant that a project in Northern Ireland could be called into question. great deal of the discussion in the other place, and Indeed, it was only a short time after the Northern here today, has been devoted to the way in which the Ireland Parliament lost this legislative competence Bill has been brought forward and the lack of time for that devolved government in Northern Ireland came its consideration—and then we come to the complexities. to an end with the prorogation of the Stormont Parliament There is a suspicion, voiced by the noble Lord, in 1972. For this reason, I support the passage of this Lord Maginnis, on which I have no opinion of my Bill as a tentative first step, which permits the Assembly own. Yet the House deserves to hear that suspicion to request the devolution of policing and justice powers laid to rest or confirmed. In that spirit, I shall say very when it is satisfied that there is sufficient confidence little more. If the Minister could tell us the central within the community and that the political maturity reason for this process being used for a constitutional exists to deal which such functions. measure, it would put many of us in a position to To date, considerable progress has been made towards make a clearer judgment about the substance of the achieving these goals. Before devolution could be restored Bill. I do not think that many of us would find it in Northern Ireland, my party insisted that support difficult to support a Bill whose central provision is to for the courts, the police and the rule of law should be take the Minister of Justice out of the d’Hondt process. an essential prerequisite for the appointment of any There are ancillary questions to be raised and scrutiny individual to an executive office. While some thought to be done, but could the Minister tell the House what that such a request might be a barrier to progress, my led to this unseemly haste? I should be greatly relieved party held firmly to the position that this was a if she could honestly tell the House that it was a normal requirement in any democratic society—and, muddle. fortunately, this view prevailed. I am confident that continued cross-community 4.30 pm cooperation will gradually increase public confidence which should, eventually, permit the devolution of Lord Browne of Belmont: My Lords, I thank the policing and justice. The principle of devolving these Lord President for bringing the Northern Ireland Bill powers is an objective on which both unionists and before the House this afternoon. Perhaps not on the nationalists can unite, and the passing of the Bill will face of it substantial, it is nevertheless very significant allow the next stage in the process of developing for the structural management of policing and justice public confidence to begin. For that reason, I support in Northern Ireland. the Bill. Before I proceed, I, too, offer my sincere condolences to the families of the serving soldiers who were murdered 4.35 pm in the service of our country at Massereene barracks in Antrim on Saturday. I extend my sympathy to the Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, first, I express families of the soldiers and civilians who were injured my deepest sympathy to the families of the murdered and I very much hope that they will make a full and soldiers and to the soldiers and civilians injured in the speedy recovery. Saturday’s tragic events will make all horrific, cowardly incident in Antrim on Saturday of us strive all the more energetically to ensure that the night. I must admit that, like many others, I thought peace process continues and develops. This Bill is an and hoped that this sort of thing was behind us. I important element of that process and nothing should would point out that in the Province, at home, we have be allowed to deter the people of Northern Ireland been well aware of the increased threat over the last from striving towards a shared future of peace and few months from dissidents of the Real and Continuity harmony. IRA. However, I should tell your Lordships that, at Without wishing to be churlish, I draw attention to ground level, many of the personalities serve either my party’s concern and frustration at the legislative movement. They separate at leadership level, but it is timetable of this Bill in the other place. Unlike with well known that they wish to be closer. Therefore, we other Bills pertaining to Northern Ireland, there is no should not differentiate so much between them; they deadline, crisis or stalemate which justifies the accelerated are simply all terrorists. passage that this Bill is receiving. Indeed, there is a Secondly, the increased known threat did not include genuine concern that without an appropriate period of this incident in Antrim, which came out of the blue. scrutiny, this Bill and, perhaps more importantly, the So the threat continues to be as severe as it was on schedules attached, may pass with certain flaws that Friday, even if the perpetrators go to ground, or, even could otherwise have been detected and amended in better, if they are brought to justice. I thank the noble the usual manner. That said, noble Lords should be Baroness, Lady Royall, for her introduction of this aware that my party is, in principle, supportive of the Bill to complete the devolution of Northern Ireland devolution of policing and justice powers to Northern and the peace process, but, again, I would ask why it is Ireland. Indeed, during the passage of several Northern so rushed. It seems to be lacking in professionalism to Ireland Bills within this place, I expressed the hope have pushed it through like this. I realise that the Bill 977 Northern Ireland Bill[9 MARCH 2009] Northern Ireland Bill 978 produces only a model for the basis of the devolution leadership thereof. It is no good anyone hiding behind of policing and justice. However, this may be our only the idea that these are raw recruits going out on a chance to comment on it in your Lordships’ House. I simple test. That was not so. Until a few years ago, also accept that it is largely a done deal between the they were colleagues of the senior staff and leaders of DUP and Sinn Fein, both having accepted it. Sinn Fein while on active service in the provisionals. However, I would like to make a few observations The only way that Gerry Adams can distance himself on the issue as a whole. The Government must ensure from them, pretending that he does not know who that these powers of policing and justice are devolved they are, is by saying that they are teenaged recruits. I into a stable and democratic political environment. It am sorry, but that is a farce. is important to note that matters of national security Many of us in Northern Ireland wonder why Sinn are not devolved and I would like to address this for a Fein has not put more pressure on its erstwhile colleagues moment. I would also like the Minister, in her reply, to to stop their terrorist activities—or even expose them clarify national security issues, reiterate where they to the police, the very force that it now says that it stand in a devolved situation and make it absolutely wants to support. Sinn Fein’s attitudes and actions in clear. A lot of the rows over the last few days, prior to the past week have done more to undermine community this incident, were based on a misunderstanding in cohesion than anything for quite some time, while the some quarters and Sinn Fein playing a different game. situation had been getting better. Over the last while, Sinn Fein has been active in showing its support for policing, law and order and I have two quick points about the devolving of the courts. This is very welcome. justice. We must ensure that the legislation is as workable However, when the chief constable, due to the and manageable as possible, but I see that there are threats to national security, called in support from the deficiencies in our law as it stands and we are asking Reconnaissance Regiment, we saw an outraged hysterical other people to operate it. First, many people are attack on him and the Government, and this has done disappointed that we do not yet have the admissibility absolutely nothing for community relations in Northern of radio and telephonic intercept evidence in courts. I Ireland. Sinn Fein is acutely aware of that and yet it know that the Minister will not necessarily reply to did it and continues to argue it. Therefore, we have a that; we have been through it a large number of times, right to ask if Sinn Fein support for law and order is but I want to make the point. unconditional or conditional and tactical. I hope that it is not the latter, but I fear that it is not being honest Secondly, another issue has had a bearing on these in this respect. They may well argue that the current recent events, so noble Lords will excuse me for mentioning threat is not to national security. I beg to differ and, it. Section 3 of the Criminal Procedure and Investigations quite clearly, the Government differ as well; hence, the Act 1996 deals with primary disclosures by the prosecutor: support being given to the chief constable. “The prosecutor must … disclose to the accused any prosecution We have known for a long time that the dissidents material which has not previously been disclosed to the accused have links outside the UK and Ireland. Indeed, there and which in the prosecutor’s opinion might undermine the case for the prosecution against the accused”. has been al-Qaeda activity in Northern Ireland but no incidents. The Antrim incident gives them more credibility However, on the defence side, compulsory disclosure in international terrorist circles and it is of national by the accused only has to give a defence statement, security importance. Although it was a really ghastly, setting it out “in general terms”. terrible, murderous incident, in terms of terrorism, the dissidents have been after something to give them For an example of how that is perhaps affecting us credibility, both internationally and at home. It is not at this minute, in the Omagh bomb case, low-copy only international; there are a large number of DNA evidence was discredited due to the evidence of ex-provisional-type people who are sitting on the fence, two expert witnesses. One of them had an undisclosed waiting to see if the dissidents could do anything criminal record from Scotland. The second had a credible. Well, now we see that, for a start, they have court ruling made against his role as an expert witness weapons that were meant to have been decommissioned; in the US in 1995, which said that he was unqualified not only the weapons, but the Semtex that was used and incompetent to perform any DNA testing in any recently. This is really quite bad news for us all. criminal case. As a result of their misleading the court, Sinn Fein’s attitude does not show unconditional three other cases against accused dissident terrorists support for policing and law and order. I think that I were dropped at that time. They were all significant, did not hear Gerry Adams or the Deputy First Minister and may be involved in today’s terrorist activity—I referring to the Antrim shooting as “murder”, and would have said almost certainly. Do the Government they spoke for a fairly long time on radio and television. recognise this inadequacy in the disclosure by the I think that the latter actually referred to it as “restarting accused in the Criminal Procedure and Investigations a war”. This was not condemnation with the strength Act 1996 and does the Minister agree that its lack of that we would have all liked to have seen. effectiveness may have contributed to the incident on Saturday night? In addition, the dissidents are far from being unknown new recruits, as I think Gerry Adams would have liked Finally, I support the intentions of this Bill but I us to believe when he spoke on the television, in their seriously question the integrity of Sinn Fein’s so-stated 20s and teens. Some of them may be; however, the support for policing and law and order. I am not sure murderers on Saturday night were cool, experienced how its sincerity and maturity, if there is any, can ever veterans, as are most of the known groups and the be validated. 979 Northern Ireland Bill[LORDS] Northern Ireland Bill 980

4.45 pm inquiry, your Lordships’ committee is considering the reasons for and the constitutional implications of the Lord Goodlad: My Lords, I, too, echo the Lord practice in recent years of routinely giving Bills relating President, as have other Lords, in expressing revulsion to Northern Ireland’s constitutional matters expedited at the cowardly attack at Massereene barracks at the consideration by Parliament. We shall report to the weekend, condolences to the relatives of those who House in due course. died and hope for the early recovery of those who were wounded. The thoughts of us all are with them. Having The committee understands the political requirements seen the effect of such acts of violence over the years for progress on the process of devolution of policing on opinion not only in Ireland and Great Britain but and justice functions to Northern Ireland, but it is not also in countries to which large numbers of Irish clear that there is an emergency situation that in and people have migrated, I share the view that these acts of itself justifies the departure from the principle that are not only evil and contemptible in themselves but Bills of constitutional significance should be subject wholly counterproductive from everybody’s point of to pre-legislative scrutiny in the United Kingdom view. Parliament. Nor is it obvious that circumstances exist that justify this Bill being put on a fast-track legislative I turn to the Bill before us; the work of Parliament process in the House of Commons and the House of must go on. Your Lordships’ Constitution Committee Lords. The Bill is in effect amending the constitution published a report on 5 March, to which reference has of the United Kingdom, and such changes should be been made, drawing attention to the constitutional made only after careful deliberation. implications of the Bill. The Bill has two aims which are of constitutional significance. First, it seeks to The Bill also makes proposals for the Prime Minister’s provide an interim framework for a Northern Ireland future role in judicial appointments in Northern Ireland, department and a Minister responsible for police and which are analysed in the committee’s report and justice ahead of devolution of those functions. Secondly, which I shall not delay your Lordships by reciting. In the Bill contains interim provisions for judicial March 2008, the draft Constitutional Renewal Bill appointments and removals, and requires the Northern proposed removing the Prime Minister from the process Ireland Assembly to carry out reviews of both sets of of appointments to the United Kingdom Supreme arrangements by 1 May 2012. All this has been foreseen Court. In the new constitutional settlement that has for some considerable time. emerged from the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, if a Minister in the United Kingdom Government is to The present Session of Parliament, unprecedentedly be made responsible for judicially-related matters, that for many years, is not short of legislative time. Your Minister should surely be the Lord Chancellor. The Lordships’ committee expressed the view in a number constitutional role of the Lord Chancellor in relation of previous reports that, as a matter of general principle, to the rule of law is expressly recognised by Section 1 Bills which deal with issues of constitutional significance of the 2005 Act. Under Section 3, he has a statutory should be published in draft and subject to pre-legislative duty to defend the independence of the judiciary, scrutiny. The Northern Ireland Bill seeks to legislate distinguishing him from other Ministers whose duty is on matters of constitutional significance. It amends to uphold that independence. Under Section 17, his the Northern Ireland Act 1998—a piece of legislation distinctive oath of office requires him to respect the described by the Appellate Committee of your Lordships’ rule of law and defend judicial independence. House as “in effect a constitution” for that part of the United Kingdom. In addition to the devolution While the committee accepts that there is a need for framework, the Bill deals with judicial appointments Ministers to be involved in both the appointment of and removals, and the role of Ministers in that process. and any steps to remove a member of the senior judiciary in Northern Ireland, we question whether When the Lord Chancellor gave evidence to the the Prime Minister, rather than the Lord Chancellor, Constitution Committee on 28 January this year, he should have a role in these processes. I would expect was asked whether there should be a constitutional this matter to be re-examined at further stages of convention that any Bill which carries constitutional the Bill. change of any significance should automatically be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny. Jack Straw told the I am grateful for the Secretary of State’s letter in committee that, response to the committee’s report, which I received today. It will be studied carefully by the committee “that will be the rule unless there is some emergency, which I do before we return to further consideration of the Bill not anticipate, which would mean that you would have to rush the whole thing through”. on Wednesday. Personally, I was not impressed by references to future unamendable Orders in Council In the present case there has been no opportunity for and a so-called purdah period for the European elections, pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill by the United precluding more lengthy consideration of the Bill in Kingdom Parliament. Moreover, the Bill has had a the United Kingdom Parliament. The committee will very expedited passage in the House of Commons. also study carefully what the Lord President says Many Bills relating to the Northern Ireland peace before we return to further proceedings on Wednesday. process and devolution settlement have similarly been introduced to Parliament on an emergency basis, with 4.52 pm Parliament being called on to give legislative effect to negotiations. Your Lordships’ committee is currently Lord Bew: My Lords, like other noble Lords, I engaged on an inquiry into “emergency legislation”, begin by expressing my sorrow and grief at the attack broadly defined to include all Bills that receive a at Massereene barracks on Saturday night. We thought fast-track passage through Parliament. As part of this that we had seen an end to that type of event in 981 Northern Ireland Bill[9 MARCH 2009] Northern Ireland Bill 982

Northern Ireland, and it is shocking to see its return. of policing and justice had come up, I had said during Like other noble Lords, I express my sympathy to the the debate that this was a matter for a long time in the families who have been affected so cruelly. future. I received a call as I left the television studios I also thank the Lord President, the noble Baroness, congratulating me on saying this. The call was from Lady Royall, for the way in which she has offered a the office of the then Secretary of State, Dr Marjorie great deal of consultation and help to noble Lords in Mowlam, and the person at the other end of the line coming to decisions about this legislation. The legislation said to me, “Not for 20 years”. has been rushed, and I have been very grateful indeed It is not 20 years since 1998—we have moved for the way in which she has attempted to mitigate the remarkably quickly on this issue. Let me remind the effect of that haste. Like other noble Lords, I think House that in 1998 the assumption of my caller and of that we have all benefited from those discussions. the Good Friday agreement was that the decommissioning This is a Bill like no other. It comes with the of illegal weaponry would be completed by 2000. In support of the Government, but in a sense that is actual fact, what was supposed to take two years took almost not the important thing. It comes with the at least seven. We must realise that, even though it is support of the First Minister and the Deputy First quite right for the Government to say that they had a Minister of the Northern Ireland Assembly. It is the busy time with the St Andrews agreement and that basis on which normal business in the Assembly was devolution would occur by 2008 and it has not done resumed this autumn and the stand-off that had been so, we are still, in broad terms, moving remarkably inhibiting the work of that Assembly came to an end. quickly across some very difficult and fraught terrain. It is therefore very difficult indeed for this House to The row over the weekend does not encourage the treat it in any other way but with great respect. One view that Northern Ireland is mature enough yet for might almost say that that which Peter Robinson and the devolution of policing and justice. I know it is Martin McGuinness put together let no man put argued that the immaturity of current debate will asunder. disappear once the responsibility is devolved. However, The Bill also has its roots in the negotiations going very deep divisions have emerged. They emerged over back to 2003 that affect the Northern Ireland peace the chief constable’s decision to employ special forces process. From that time onwards, for good or for ill, even before the murders. The debate that has occurred the concept of the devolution of policing and justice since the murders does not encourage us to think that was intimately related to commitments given by the there is yet the kind of political culture in place which Provisional IRA on the decommissioning of its weapons. could operate effectively any devolution of policing Whether it was wise for that issue to be introduced in and justice. that way is entirely another point. We are now stuck with this five or six years later. The House has been much concerned about the issue of haste. Many noble Lords have commented We must bear these realities in mind, therefore, that the haste has been indecent and have asked why. when we discuss this legislation. None the less, some There is a very simple answer. The perception in the observations are appropriate and made even more Government was that the president of Sinn Fein needed pressing by the events of the weekend and, indeed, the something that could be presented as a political victory political arguments in Northern Ireland that pre-dated or a political gain with the European elections just the murders at Massereene. As the Government rightly around the corner. I am not sure that we are close to say, this Bill is designed not to bring in devolution but the devolution of policing and justice but at least this to provide parliamentary sanction for a new model is something the Government could offer—the fact that the Deputy First Minister and the First Minister that it had been pressed through these Houses so have agreed they might be able to employ to bring quickly. The very indignation expressed in both Houses about the devolution of policing and justice. It is is almost a part of the package. therefore related to that project and with respect to the project of the devolution of policing and justice as a Let me expand on that point. We are coming to the principle that I wish to make a few observations. end of a style of dealing with the peace process. The The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, is correct to say assumption of government has been that at all times that for unionists this has been a long-held and cherished we must allow Sinn Fein to believe that there is further ambition. The problem is that it may be one of many progress along the line which can be delivered and unwise features of unionist political thought in the something more that can be presented. At no point do 20th century. It may be one of the less fortunate, less we present a closed door; the assumption is that this is attractive or less intelligent aspects of thinking about dangerous. It is, by the way, not an unreasonable politics that characterises Ulster Unionism. It is certainly assumption of government. It is part of the reason the case that throughout the 1970s and 1980s and well why we have had so much success up to this point. into the 1990s, British Governments of both parties The trouble is that we are now running out of rope; conventionally regarded the concept of devolution of we are running out of things that can be offered in the policing and justice with special fear, concern and process. We may have reached the point where we have nervousness—quite rightly in my opinion. to speak truth unto power—in this case, the power I wish to burden the House with an anecdote. In being the president of Sinn Fein. Two things must 1998 it was my wont to wander in and out of television occur here: we must be fair and we must recognise and studios in advocacy of the Good Friday agreement. take seriously the nature of Irish republican political After one such debate in which, as the noble Baroness, philosophy. We cannot afford to disregard this as Lady Royall, has pointed out, the fact that the agreement casually as we sometimes do and make it into something of 1998 makes provision in principle for the devolution that in our own minds we would prefer that it was. 983 Northern Ireland Bill[LORDS] Northern Ireland Bill 984

[LORD BEW] 5.04 pm Over the weekend, there was a very concerning turn in the debate. It occurred in relation to Sinn Fein Baroness Harris of Richmond: My Lords, each and mercifully saying that it supported the police apprehending every Member of this House has made stark reference the murderers at the weekend. None the less, Sinn Fein to the appalling events of Saturday night at Massereene leaders were heard to say, about securocrats and the barracks in Antrim. The people of Northern Ireland role of our intelligence services, that they were, as it had hoped that murders such as these were a thing of were, as bad as the dissidents, that the two fed off each the past. It is shocking that the perpetrators feel that other, that they needed each other, that the two groups they can derail the peace process by killing and maiming were locked into a conflict—that they were morally on innocent people. We call on anyone who has any the same level—but that some process was at stake: a knowledge of who is responsible for this outrage—they process by which parts of the British establishment are members of a proscribed organisation—to give did not accept the Good Friday agreement. During information immediately to the police, so that the my time in this House—if this House may be considered perpetrators can be brought to justice. I echo all noble to be part of the British establishment—I have never Lords who have spoken of their anger and who have heard one person express anything other than support offered their deep sympathy to the families and friends for the Good Friday agreement. Some have expressed of the two soldiers who were murdered and to the their concerns about the moral costs of that process soldiers and civilians who were wounded, some seriously. but I have not heard in this particular sanctum one We, too, thank the noble Baroness the Lord President word uttered in a serious attempt to revise it or reverse and the officials in the Bill team who have attempted it. That is what I mean by speaking truth unto power. to explain this legislation. We should send that message to Sinn Fein. We should not be prepared to allow our intelligence services to be Opening the Second Reading debate in the other dismissed as securocrats. I know that it is fashionable place, the Secretary of State said: to be immensely neurotic about the security state at “The Bill will provide an essential stepping stone to the present but we should say clearly that there is a major completion of devolution, and it is a tribute to those in Northern problem in Northern Ireland—the murders on Saturday Ireland whose political leadership and commitment has turned night are proof of that—and that we support the work the peace process into an enduring political process. That political of our intelligence services in trying to prevent similar progress has been and continues to be significant, and it is essential that the momentum is maintained”.—[Official Report, outbreaks. 4/3/09; col. 886.] That is why I support the noble Viscount, Lord I agree with those sentiments entirely. However, the Brookeborough, who asked the Minister to define speed with which we have been forced to consider this national security as it applies to Northern Ireland. important and highly complex legislation, which the This is a central question in relation to the devolution noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, condemned, has been of policing and justice: it is one of the most difficult admirably referred to by many noble Lords, especially matters. We hear, rightly or wrongly, that 15 per cent by my noble friend Lord Smith of Clifton, and also, of our security and intelligence services’ activities at graphically, by the noble and learned Lord, Lord the moment are directed towards the dissident republican Mayhew of Twysden, and the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, threat. That is a remarkably high percentage, given the who reminded us of the Constitution Committee’s scale of the other threats that the United Kingdom report that considered this Bill. The noble Lord, Lord currently faces. It is therefore vital that when the new Goodlad, felt that the Bill could in no way be considered arrangements come in, it should be clear what the to be emergency legislation. The noble Baroness, Lady place of national security concerns and of our intelligence O’Neill, pointed out that we could have had ample services are with respect to the other institutions, time since November to consider these measures, and including the devolved institutions of policing and that momentum provided no reason for haste. justice in Northern Ireland. I therefore fully support the request of the noble Viscount for clarification on On 18 November 2008, the Secretary of State welcomed that. the agreement between the First Minister and Deputy First Minister that set out an agreed process for devolving Finally, in the other place, some concerns about the policing and justice in the Northern Ireland Assembly. Bill were dismissed on the ground that the Northern He said: Ireland Assembly had already discussed them. We “The Bill does not provide for when devolution will happen, must respect the political realities of this process—we nor does it provide for what is to devolve—both of these still have, in effect, to support the Bill—but we do not have require further consideration by the parties and ultimately by to accept the Northern Ireland Assembly as some type Parliament”. of intellectual gold standard before which we bow. If The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, who unfortunately is the Northern Ireland Assembly dismissed the matter, not in his seat, reminded us of this. that does not mean that we should not discuss it. That is why I am particularly grateful to the noble and How many more times must we come together to learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, who raised issues about consider further legislation along this path? This is the the future role of the DPP and the Attorney-General eight piece of legislation covering the move towards under this new dispensation. It is perfectly true that devolution of policing and justice in Northern Ireland. the Northern Ireland Assembly was not much troubled Will the Minister guarantee that when there is further by that question but it is the sort of thing that we legislation to consider, it will not be presented to this should discuss in Committee. House in a rushed and inappropriate way? 985 Northern Ireland Bill[9 MARCH 2009] Northern Ireland Bill 986

When I spoke in the debates on the humble Address Given the context of policing in Northern Ireland, following the gracious Speech presented by Her Majesty it is desperately important that we get this legislation to Parliament in December, I anticipated a Bill of this right. I urge the noble Baroness to consider seriously kind. I spoke of the challenges that would face a the amendments which we will bring forward in Minister of Justice in Northern Ireland, and those Committee as a genuine attempt to provide proper challenges have not changed. They were spoken of safeguards for such a vital department. again today, as my noble friend has reminded us. I also spoke of the positive effect that such a transfer of 5.12 pm power would have. While a number of measures have been put in place already to provide for greater Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I echo the remarks transparency and accountability in operational matters made by all noble Lords about the murders on Saturday in Northern Ireland, and better performance in criminal night, which were as merciless as they were cowardly. justice and policing, the formal devolution to the Listening to all noble Lords, I have been very Assembly will create the cross-community ownership powerfully struck by the degree of unanimity around of resourcing and policy matters. There will be enhanced the House on devolution. Every single contributor opportunities for joined-up government. has, directly or by implication, spoken of the desire to On resourcing, in his Second Reading speech in reinforce the durability of devolution and the debate another place, again on 4 March, the Northern Ireland has taken place in that spirit. The noble Lord, Lord First Minister and Member of Parliament for Belfast Bew, helped us all when he said that we should not East said: be timid about suggesting amendments to the Bill because, if we believe that the Bill will be improved by “confidence is about more than who will operate these structures; them, we have a duty to bring them forward. it is also about the funding of policing and justice”. The Bill is an amendment to the UK constitution He added: and we sit in—I was about to say the most important “There is no sense in Northern Ireland’s Assembly having Parliament in the United Kingdom—the Parliament responsibility for policing and justice if it does not have the which is sovereign in the United Kingdom. It is extremely resources to do the job. It is therefore vital that the Government divvy up in this regard”.—[Official Report, Commons, 4/3/09; important to keep at the front of our minds our duties col. 912.] towards the constitution; and to ensure that any amendments are responsible and improve the way in After the appalling circumstances of Saturday night, which our nation is governed. That is why I valued now is probably the right time for the Government to enormously the contribution by my noble friend Lord answer that question. Goodlad. For as many years as I have been involved in In their speeches, many noble Lords also regretted policing and asked questions in this House about the the fact that this is emergency legislation. Of course, adequacy of resourcing the Police Service of Northern most Northern Ireland legislation that has come before Ireland, I have been assured that the chief constable your Lordships’ House in recent years has been emergency has all the resources he needs. Clearly, that now needs legislation; and the reason for that is not hard to to be looked at again in the light of this recent atrocity. discern. The reason is that such legislation, typically, The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, referred to the follows negotiated deals between the principal political imminent retirement of the chief constable and the parties; and there is a fear in the Government that, if it debt or lack of £50 million in the policing budget. He is not swiftly enshrined in statute, the deal will disappear felt that that was unacceptable and extremely worrying. almost before our eyes. So I understand the dilemma The noble Lord, Lord Maginnis of Drumglass, also the Government face; but the interests of enduring commented strongly on the lack of resources, to which devolution in Northern Ireland are not best served by the chief constable has referred. this conduct. We have to take the risk that certain We do not get soldiers murdered in England and elements of deals will fall by the wayside for the Wales and they should not be murdered in Northern greater benefit of getting the best devolution settlement Ireland, so will the Minister assure the chief constable we can for the UK constitution. That is not just a that he will receive whatever extra resources he needs matter for those in Northern Ireland; it is a matter for to ensure that these people are caught? Will he also us all. clarify the national security issues referred to by the I have two examples of what I have just said. The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, and the noble first is the situation of High Court judges in Northern Lord, Lord Bew, who also referred to the dangers in Ireland. One of the unsatisfactory results of the devolution security in Northern Ireland? The Northern Ireland negotiations is that, once it takes place, there will be First Minister seeks assurance on funding generally two sorts of High Court judges in the United Kingdom: and so do I. those for England, Wales and Scotland and those Criminal justice matters do not reside within a neat appointed in Northern Ireland before devolution, all silo. There are some obvious opportunities for any of whom can be dismissed only by a vote by both future Minister in working with other departments. Houses of Parliament; and High Court judges in Today, my noble friend has restated the commitment Northern Ireland appointed after devolution, who will on these Benches to the principle of the devolution of not enjoy that protection. justice and policing matters to the Assembly. I therefore However, I am pleased to see that, in the Bill, the share my noble friend’s regret that Schedule 1 to the Government have improved the situation in one important Bill causes us such great difficulties, for the reasons he way for that class of High Court judges with respect to has set out. Sections 5 and 7 of the 2002 Act. Under those sections, 987 Northern Ireland Bill[LORDS] Northern Ireland Bill 988

[LORD KINGSLAND] The Lord President’s second observation was that the First and Deputy First Ministers of Northern the Attorney-General should not be a political figure. Ireland have a crucial role to play in whether appointment However, with great respect, the Attorney-General will or dismissal takes place. I am thankful that, in this be a political figure in Northern Ireland because of the Bill, the Government have replaced those parties by way in which he is chosen. The situation is exacerbated the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland. I regard by the fact that it is the Attorney-General, as a political that as exceedingly beneficial, and I congratulate the figure, who chooses the DPP,thereby compounding—I Government on making that change. use the following word metaphorically—the felony. As the noble Baroness the Lord President and the Thirdly, the Lord President observed that the solution noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General are that we were adopting and advancing breached the aware, I am much less happy about the relationship separation of powers, because the Lord Chief Justice between the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland of Northern Ireland would have a veto over the and the DPP in Northern Ireland, as envisaged following appointment of the Attorney-General by the devolution. Under Section 42 of the 2002 Act: Appointments Commission. With great respect, that “The functions of the Director shall be exercised by him observation was misconceived. What greater breach of independently of any other person”. the separation of powers could there be than a political Attorney-General appointing a DPP who had quasi- The problem about that section is that the DPP will judicial prosecutorial powers in the jurisdiction? not have the protection of a superintending Attorney- General, as the DPP has in England and Scotland. Having proposed and defended our amendment, I The result is that if the DPP is accused of political bias should say that, although I will speak to it again on in instituting, or refusing to institute, a prosecution, as Wednesday I do not propose to put it to a vote; partly he inevitably will be from time to time, he will not be because I hope that the Government will be so convinced able to have his position defended in the Assembly in by the power of the argument that they will amend the Northern Ireland by the Northern Ireland Attorney- Bill, and partly because, perhaps more importantly in General; and the DPP himself will have no right to go the present circumstances, we know that the first and to the Assembly and defend himself. second Ministers have already agreed on an Attorney- General for Northern Ireland through the political The reason for this—one can see how he came to be process. A few days ago, the noble and learned Baroness, placed in this position—is that, under the devolution Lady Scotland, was kind enough to talk to me about arrangements, the Attorney-General in Northern Ireland this matter and I can see that voting could produce a is a purely political figure; he is selected solely by the difficult situation during a time which has been made First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. That even more sensitive by the tragedies of Saturday night. selection is not even endorsed by the Assembly. So he For that reason, too, I do not propose to put my does not have the quasi-judicial role, above and beyond amendment to the vote but—some of your Lordships politics, which the noble and learned Baroness, Lady may be disappointed to hear—I will say a few more Scotland, has, in the United Kingdom jurisdiction. words in Committee. That is why we have tabled our amendment on the Attorney-General. The amendment seeks to give the Attorney-General 5.25 pm for Northern Ireland a quasi-judicial role by appointing him in exactly the same way in which a High Court Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am judge is appointed post-devolution. From that procedure, grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in which would endow him with quasi-judicial powers, this Second Reading debate. It is always interesting to flows the second part of our amendment, which would hear the insightful and constructive contributions of give him superintendence powers over the Northern noble Lords in relation to Northern Ireland. Many of Ireland DPP, thereby providing that party with the these issues are of extreme importance and we, the necessary constitutional protection. Government, as well as Members in this House, can learn greatly from that expertise and vast experience. The Lord President very kindly applied herself to the amendment and made three points which I particularly In my opening comments I referred to the reduced want to question. First, she said that the arrangements timeframe in which this Government have had to in the 2002 Act were really a function of the circumstances consider the legislation. It is clear that all noble Lords of the time: that is to say, the Judicial Review, completed are concerned and feel extremely strongly about this in 2000 and published in 2002. Will she be kind issue. But, as I stated at the beginning of this debate, enough to explain what she thought the circumstances the reduced timetable is not for the convenience of the of the time were, and why, having done that, she thinks Government but simply to ensure that the necessary that they necessitated the arrangement that appeared legislative framework is in place to allow the Assembly in the 2002 Act? My noble and learned friend Lord to progress with the devolution of policing and justice Mayhew addressed that point, with his characteristic at a pace determined by themselves. This is complex acuity, and observed, at the end of this phase of his legislation and more time for scrutiny would be welcome. remarks, that 2002 was now, and certainly in Northern However, we have to ensure that the momentum is Ireland political terms, a long way away. As he put it, upheld. I note the views expressed by the noble Baroness, characteristically modestly, it could well be said that Lady O’Neill, that momentum does not necessarily the circumstances had changed to allow us, now, to mean haste. I also agree with her that it is regrettable give the kind of protection which the DPP needs in the that, for all the obvious reasons, we have spent too circumstances of devolution in which he will operate. much time this afternoon discussing the time allowed 989 Northern Ireland Bill[9 MARCH 2009] Northern Ireland Bill 990 rather than scrutinising much more important elements continue to be able to ask for specialist support from of the Bill. However, I must stress that the timetable the military, as he sees fit, in the same way as other has not been dictated by any deal, either before or police services across the UK. behind closed doors. There is no deal. The speed with The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, and the which we are dealing with this legislation does not noble Lord, Lord Bew, also raised the question of have anything to do with the European elections. Nor, national security. I cannot define the term “national I must stress, is it a carrot to Sinn Fein. security”. It has never been defined in UK statute. The Northern Ireland Bill is intended to give legislative However, I am informed that national security is generally effect to a political agreement between the Northern understood to relate to the safety and security of the Ireland First and Deputy First Ministers and the state and its people. I refer noble Lords to paragraph recommendations of a committee of the Northern 17 of Schedule 2 to the Northern Ireland Act, which Ireland Assembly, which the Assembly have debated relates to security in Northern Ireland. I ask noble and endorsed. It faithfully reflects these agreements Lords to note that national security is not devolved in and recommendations, which, in response to the noble Scotland, where policing and justice are already devolved, and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, may have something and it will not be devolved in Northern Ireland. to do with the drafting of the Bill. The recommendations The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, expressed concern, are aimed at paving the way for the future devolution as did the noble Viscount, about whether Sinn Fein of policing and justice. The Government have to be supports the police. Sinn Fein’s indication that it would ready to move forward the parts of the process that give support to the police was a key factor in securing are within our gift as quickly as possible. It is crucial a return to a devolved Government in May 2007. The that it is not the UK Government or Westminster who Government believe that this support is genuine. Indeed, are seen to be preventing progress on this issue, but over the past few days, we have seen Sinn Fein politicians that the political process continues at the pace set by speak out about the weekend’s atrocities and urge the Northern Ireland’s elected representatives. To leave public to provide any information that they might open the possibility of completing the remaining legislative have to the PSNI to assist their inquiries. I am sure steps in the devolution process during the period that the House will endorse that same point made by between now and the Summer Recess—that is not to the noble Baroness—that if anyone has any information say that that timescale will necessarily be used—it is relating to the atrocities, they must contact the PSNI. necessary for the Northern Ireland Bill to receive These people have to be brought to book. Royal Assent by mid-March. It would not have been possible to publish the Bill in draft or to make it Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, would the Minister subject to pre-legislative scrutiny and to meet this therefore tell us whether Sinn Fein’s remarks about the timetable, although I hear and respect the views of the chief constable needing extra support were an indication noble Lord, Lord Goodlad. However, it is fair to say of its support for the police? that many elements of the Bill—for example, those dealing with the new departmental model—have been Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I interpret debated in detail by the Assembly. it as being supportive of the police, but I will have to The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, suggested that read that carefully and may well come back to the the PSNI is not satisfactorily funded and, therefore, is noble Viscount. not up to the job. The noble Baroness, Lady Harris, The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, asked if we met asked for my assurance that the necessary funding some criteria, which he stipulated. We have seen politics would be made available. The Government have full in Northern Ireland develop a position where all parties confidence in Sir Hugh Orde, and in the Police Service support peaceful democratic means and the criminal of Northern Ireland, to rise to whatever challenge is justice system. In relation to community support for before them. On devolution, we are committed to devolution, that is one criteria set down by the First transferring the funding required to enable all aspects Minister and the Deputy First Minister in their November of policing and justice to operate effectively. It is not statement. It will be for the Northern Ireland Assembly in the Government’s interests to do anything differently. to decide when the necessary confidence exists. The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, has great My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has concerns about the Justice Minister and that he or she asked Jeremy Heywood to chair a group looking in should not be dismissed by a simple cross-community detail at the funding situation for policing and justice vote. The noble Lord is right to suggest that the justice in Northern Ireland. The group brings together interests portfolio is special, which is why we have provided for from Whitehall and the devolved Administration in a series of alternative models for the structure of a Northern Ireland to ensure that concerns about policing justice department. However, I do not agree that he is and justice budgets are properly addressed in the right to dismiss the cross-community vote as simple, lead-up to devolution. I am confident that, at the as if it is a basic norm. It is not. It is a special point of devolution, we will be handing over a police arrangement put in place by the Belfast agreement service that is top rate, on top of the job, and properly which said that, as a safeguard, key decisions in the funded. Assembly would be taken on a cross-community basis. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, asked whether, if It is not a routine measure, but a safeguard. devolved, the chief constable could ask for support The noble Lord suggested that it would be unfair from the SRR. National security remains an accepted for members of the Alliance Party to be voted out by a matter, and, post-devolution, the chief constable will system that did not count their votes as equal to those 991 Northern Ireland Bill[LORDS] Northern Ireland Bill 992

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] what until recently was Britain’s largest bank robbery, of designated unionists or nationalists. That is to and perhaps still is, and where the murder of misunderstand the origins of the cross-community Mr McCartney and the Omagh bomb are to be put on vote. It was to ensure that, unlike in the past, it would the back burner. What faction within Northern Ireland no longer be possible for one side of the community to are they put aside in order to please? impose measures on the other side, against their wishes. It was a safeguard designed to meet the particular Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I think with circumstances of Northern Ireland which derived from respect that the noble Lord misunderstands the chief its history. It is not a routine tool but designated for constable’s statements on these issues. There is a world special circumstances, such as the appointment and of difference between suggesting, as does the noble removal of a Justice Minister. Lord, that the police have abandoned the investigations This Bill is not the place to unpick the safeguards of and explaining, as did the chief constable, that the the Belfast agreement. If the current definitions of police have followed all their existing leads as far as cross-community support were acceptable in 1998, at they can and that taking their investigations further a time when trust was in its most embryonic state, the requires new evidence. The police remain as committed Government believe that it remains right to have that as ever to bringing the perpetrators to justice and I test today. know that noble Lords would support me in asking, as The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, was right last week I did earlier, that anyone with information, relating to sound a note of caution about devolution, in view not just to the atrocities this weekend but to the of the atrocities at the weekend. However, we cannot previous serious attacks, should bring it forward to the and must not allow the evil actions of a few to derail police precisely so that they can continue with their the peace process, which is so strongly supported and investigations and the perpetrators can be brought to desired by the vast majority of the population and its justice. The noble Lord suggested earlier that he has elected representatives. I am grateful to the noble Lord not had the opportunity to discuss some of these for clearly explaining what the Bill does not do. It is issues with the Secretary of State, but, as he knows, I right that the Government will not and must not am happy and willing to facilitate such a meeting. impose the devolution of policing and justice. This I am grateful for the views expressed by the noble can happen only when a Motion for the transfer of and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, and his general powers has been moved by the First and Deputy First support. I shall read his views carefully, especially Ministers and approved by the Assembly on a cross- those in relation to the Attorney-General, because he community basis. It will then be brought to this House is an esteemed former Attorney-General. I completely in the form of orders. agree that the response to this weekend’s atrocities Various noble Lords have asked me to ensure that must be calm and well judged, and that we must be adequate time is given to the debating of those orders. resolute. Adequate time will be given to the debating of those I entirely endorse the desire of the noble Lord, orders, and I will do my utmost to ensure that the Lord Browne, to ensure that there will be confidence orders are available well before the debate that takes in future to allow the early devolution of policing and place in this House so that noble Lords have an justice to the locally accountable legislative assembly. opportunity to consider them. This must not be a mere aspiration; we have to make it I hear and respect the views articulated by the noble a reality. Lord, Lord Maginnis, but do not agree with many of The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, raised a them. The noble Lord referred to the lack of discussions series of issues, a couple of which I have dealt with. I in Northern Ireland relating to the devolution of policing should stress that the orders that I mentioned earlier and justice under the votes in the Executive and the will of course be affirmative. The noble Viscount Assembly. The votes were taken, and the majority suggested that the weapons used should have been view was that the report from the Executive, which decommissioned. The source of those weapons is an followed up the agreement between the First Minister intelligence matter, and it is the long-standing practice and the Deputy First Minister, was acceptable and of successive Governments not to comment on such should be followed. That is democracy. matters. However, more generally, the IMC has made This Government, as I said earlier, are not complicit it clear that small quantities of weapons were held in any deal and are not working to any timetable. As I back by local groups in defiance of the instructions of mentioned, the elected representatives of Northern their leadership. The noble Viscount raised the use of Ireland, are driving the timetable here, not this intercept evidence and its disclosure to the defence. He Government. may be aware that the law in Northern Ireland is the same as that in England and Wales in both these areas. In relation to the chief constable, as I said earlier, My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has the Government have complete confidence in Hugh established a programme to look at the intercept-as- Orde. I know that his focus, and that of his officers, is evidence issue following receipt of the Chilcot report on the safety of the people of Northern Ireland and last summer. That work will reach its conclusion in the their having great confidence in the PSNI. coming months. On disclosure, there is an important principle of ensuring a fair trial. However, if there Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, it strikes were clear evidence of a problem, I am sure that this is me that law-abiding people cannot have confidence an area which would be considered further. The noble where a chief constable and his constabulary suggest Viscount asked also about the disparity between that they will not continue with investigations into prosecution and defence disclosure under the 1996 Act. 993 Northern Ireland Bill[9 MARCH 2009] NI: Massereene Army Base 994

The arrangements for prosecution and defence disclosure, Attorney-General, under Assembly standing orders, which are the same in Northern Ireland as in England will be able to speak in the Assembly and answer and Wales, were amended recently by the Criminal questions. The DPP will also be answerable to the Justice Act 2003. I note the noble Viscount’s comments Assembly for financial and administrative matters, but on ensuring a level playing field in relation to disclosure of course the DPP can consult the Attorney-General in the context of an overall right to a fair trial. The who himself will be able to answer questions in the disclosure provisions of the Criminal Procedure and Assembly. Investigations Act 1996 are kept under review, and I We look forward to discussing and debating these shall of course convey the noble Viscount’s concerns. issues further when amendments tabled by noble Lords On the disclosure arrangements for the Omagh trial, are before us. I am extremely grateful to the noble and the conduct of individual trials is a matter for the learned Lord for informing us that he will not be independent presiding judge, which includes applications pressing his amendments to a Division. I thank noble of the disclosure arrangements. As I mentioned, the Lords for their considered contributions to today’s legislative basis for disclosure was reviewed as recently debate. I welcome the concern expressed because it is as 2003. right and it is our duty to be honest, but I also The noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, rightly brought to welcome the active interest that noble Lords continue our attention the report of his excellent committee. I to take not only in this specific issue but in Northern shall respond more fully to the report in Committee if Ireland in general. I may. I also very much look forward to giving evidence I apologise for the fact that not all noble Lords were to his committee as it looks into emergency legislation. aware of the meeting that took place earlier today. The report asks about the role of the Prime Minister There will be a meeting on Wednesday and I shall in relation to senior judicial appointments. The Northern strive to ensure that all noble Lords are informed Ireland Bill will essentially remove the post-devolution accordingly. roles of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in these processes, which were set in the Justice (Northern Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee Ireland) Act 2002. The legislation under which of the Whole House. appointments and removals are currently governed, the Judicature (Northern Ireland) Act 1978 and the 2002 Act, already provide significant roles for the Northern Ireland: Massereene Army Base Prime Minister. The Northern Ireland Bill does not substantively change the role of the Prime Minister as Statement set out in the 1978 and 2002 Acts. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, raised many interesting 5.51 pm issues. He is right that it is natural that all parties here Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, with the and Northern Ireland approach devolution issues leave of the House, I shall repeat a Statement made in nervously. It is therefore quite extraordinary, as he another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary said, that we have moved so far forward and so fast. I of State for Northern Ireland. The Statement is as must read his contribution with care. I think that I follows. have dealt with many of the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris. “Mr Speaker, with permission I should like to make a Statement about the horrific attack last Saturday at The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, is absolutely Massereene army base in Antrim. The focus for this right that we have to ensure the best possible deal for sickening crime was civilians and young soldiers of the devolution and to get it right: it is our duty to get it 38 Engineer Regiment, part of 19 Light Brigade. right. These are constitutional issues and we must have confidence that we are acting correctly. I am The House will know that Operation Banner—the grateful for the noble Lord’s support for the changes deployment of troops in Northern Ireland—was brought in relation to the Lord Chief Justice. to an end in July 2007 and that 38 Engineer Regiment is part of the Northern Ireland garrison. These men With regard to the perceived politicisation of the and women are part of the new arrangements in which appointment of the Attorney-General, it is clear that soldiers are based in Northern Ireland for deployment the appointee must be an excellent lawyer with the anywhere throughout the world. They are not about a ability to put the law first. The First Minister and garrison to replace Operation Banner. Deputy First Minister will of course be from different These soldiers were in the process of being deployed parties, so we can be confident that the person in for active service in Afghanistan, to support international question will be independent, of excellent reputation efforts, to stabilise and to bring peace to that region. and not political. At the time of the attack, most of their colleagues had The Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 on the already left for this deployment. A small number relationship between the Director of Public Prosecutions remained, awaiting their deployment to begin within and the Attorney-General provides that it should be hours. While waiting, a small number of soldiers consultative. That was seen by the criminal justice decided to order food from Domino’s Pizza in Antrim. review as the best way of ensuring visible independence At about 9.40 pm, the delivery arrived in two separate of prosecutorial decisions. As a matter of law, a statutory cars. The soldiers came out of the main gate of the duty of consultation requires meaningful consultations. barracks. The cars delivering the pizzas were parked It ensures that a wide range of matters will be discussed, fewer than 10 yards away. As they did so, two masked including the code of practice for prosecutors. The gunmen opened fire. 995 NI: Massereene Army Base[LORDS] NI: Massereene Army Base 996

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] have no community support whatever, but their guns The initial volley of shots was followed by a second. are able to murder. The police have asked for everyone The attackers clearly were intent to kill the soldiers in the community who has information to come forward. and the civilians. They continued firing at the men They should do so as a matter of urgency. Anyone in even when injured; even when some had fallen to the the Antrim area or beyond on Saturday who may have ground. The firing lasted for more than 30 seconds. seen anything suspicious in the vicinity of Domino’s More than 60 shots were fired. Neither the soldiers Pizza or on the Randalstown Road, close to Massereene nor the civilians had a chance against the premeditated Barracks, should contact the PSNI. attempt at mass murder. Two of the soldiers were killed. The families were informed yesterday and this The House will want to know that all political morning the MoD released their names. leaders and political parties in Northern Ireland have condemned this evil act. They are all united not only Sapper Patrick Azimkar and Sapper Mark Quinsey in their condemnation and their expressions of condolence were held in the highest regard by everyone in their to the families but in their demand that anyone who regiment. Patrick Azimkar was just 21. He was looking can help should come forward. They join in these forward to facing the challenges of his first operational expressions with my right honourable friend the Prime tour in southern Helmand. Mark Quinsey, who was Minister and all the party leaders in this House. It is 23, was equally looking forward to the operational only right for me to record the expressions of support challenges that he would face in Afghanistan. Two and sympathy that we immediately received from the more soldiers were seriously injured. The attack was Taoiseach and President McAleese. Indeed, messages just as barbaric on the civilians from the pizza company. of support and condolence have come from the United Both were injured—one extremely seriously. There States, including from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, can be no doubt that those responsible were intent to and President Obama last night made his position take the lives of all of these men. Before commenting very clear, condemning in the strongest terms the further, I know that the House will want to join me in attack and making clear his support for the people of expressing our deepest condolences to the families of Northern Ireland who have chosen a future of peace, those who were murdered and to send our sympathy reconciliation and prosperity. to the injured and all those families, who too are victims of this act of terrible violence which has It may be helpful if I provide the House with rightly been described as evil. further information about the current levels of security Immediately after the attack, fellow soldiers from threat in Northern Ireland. As the House will know, 38 Engineer Regiment went to the aid of their friends. both the chief constable and I have made public our They tended the wounded and cared for the dying. I view that the level of threat posed by dissident republicans had the honour of meeting some of these young men has recently been higher than at any time in the past and women yesterday morning. Today my right six years. Since 2008 they have mounted 18 attacks: 15 honourable friend the Prime Minister flew to Northern during 2008; and three so far this year. The House will Ireland and with him I met this group of outstanding be aware that last week the Security Service raised the young soldiers. I put on the record the admiration that level of threat from Irish-related terrorism from substantial we all have for these young men and women. They are to severe in Northern Ireland. This was a carefully the greatest credit to our country and I know that I calibrated decision, based on the overall assessment of speak for the whole House in saying how proud we are the past nine months. This period includes the attempted of them. murder of police officers, the savage attacks on those dropping their children at school and the failed car It is now the job of the PSNI to conduct the bomb in Castlewellan on 27 January 2009. investigation to bring to justice those who murdered and injured these soldiers and civilians. A major There was some uncertainty last week about the investigation is now under way. This morning both the wisdom of raising the threat level. I believe that this Prime Minister and I had further briefings with the was the right decision and entirely justified. Policing in chief constable Sir Hugh Orde, our intelligence advisers Northern Ireland enjoys the highest levels of confidence and Brigadier George Norton, Command 38 (Irish) from the public. In my judgment it is absolutely essential Brigade and NI Garrison. that the chief constable has operational independence. The House will wish to know that everything that Of course he is accountable to the Policing Board can be done is being done. It is too early for me to under the Patten arrangements. He will, if he sees fit, report on the progress of the criminal investigation. enjoy the same rights as any other chief constable in However, I should tell the House that yesterday evening the UK to request further technical back-up if so the so-called Real IRA claimed responsibility for this needed. That would be the case in, say, dealing with a act of extreme brutality. Whatever self-styled name threat from al-Qaeda and international terrorism; so, these murderers choose to use, the House will correctly too, for any terrorist threat. recognise them as barbaric criminals who are prepared Indeed, we made that clear at the end of Operation to carry out an act of pre-meditated mass murder— Banner. In a Statement to this House on 31 July 2007, callously murdering innocent people going about their my right honourable friend the Minister of State for daily business. They are simply brutal and cowardly Defence, Bob Ainsworth, said that after 1 August the killers. vast majority of military support in Northern Ireland The numbers of people who make up these criminal would be broadly comparable to the assistance that is groups are relatively few. However, they are no less currently provided in Great Britain, tailored for the dangerous for their small numbers. We know that they particular circumstances in Northern Ireland. He also 997 NI: Massereene Army Base[9 MARCH 2009] NI: Massereene Army Base 998 made it clear that the provision of explosive ordnance us how seriously he viewed the severity of the situation. disposal—the kind used to deal with the car bomb in I confirm our firm support for the operational Castlewellan—would continue. independence of the chief constable. Like every other Whatever concerns honourable Members may have chief constable in the United Kingdom, he must have expressed last week—and it may be appropriate to the right to enlist the help of specialists. Can the noble comment on the serious distortions and misleading Baroness confirm that the decision of the chief constable reports in some of the media at that time—I hope that to call in reconnaissance experts would not have been they will now feel reassured about the role of any affected had criminal justice and policing been devolved? technical support being used to tackle the current The aim of these attacks is to try to disrupt normal threat. As the chief constable has repeatedly said, this policing, forcing police into barracks and armoured is not about the return of troops to the streets but vehicles away from the public. We must not allow that about protecting the public proportionately and protecting objective to succeed but, rather, we must ensure that a those who provide that protection, such as police balance be struck between the need to increase protection officers and those who work to protect the international for officers and to ensure that the police are visible and community or on international theatre operations. known to their communities. It has been 12 years since the death of a soldier in The Government raised the threat level from substantial Northern Ireland. This has been a very dark few days to severe last week. Was that change due to specific for Northern Ireland, but it is a temporary darkness at intelligence received or a response to the general security the end of a tunnel of considerable light. The peace situation? Were civilian guards briefed on the current process and political progress, as part of shared power, threat level and individual establishments chased up to have transformed Northern Ireland. The perpetrators ensure that it was understood and that appropriate of this attack believe that they can stall that progress measures had been taken to account for it? Given the and, in stalling it, instil seeds of self-destruction. Indeed, understandable and desirable pursuit of normalisation, they have clearly chosen to act in this evil way only which we on these Benches strongly support, will the because the politics of a shared future is working. The Government conduct an immediate review of the security determination and resolve of all political leaders in arrangements at police stations and military installations? the face of this brutal act is working proof of a unity Lastly, in this context, what are the implications for of purpose. defence installations in the rest of the United Kingdom? We are all united in our resolve that the criminals The attackers showed a chilling ruthlessness in shooting will not succeed. Our confidence will be stronger, our their victims a second time, on the ground. Do the resolve even greater, and while the House will Government not agree that such cold brutality suggests understandably be sombre as a result of this murderous that these were experienced terrorists? The crime scene attack, the greatest memorial to Patrick Azimkar and will reveal valuable ballistic and forensic evidence. The Mark Quinsey and their families will be in our experience from previous investigations shows that determination to unite behind the peace process and speed is of the essence. Will the noble Baroness confirm political progress in Northern Ireland. Let us make that these murders will receive top priority and that sure that those responsible for this attack are not given the most competent and experienced officers will be in any opportunity to stall or prevent the progress of charge of the investigation? Northern Ireland. Let us join together; let this House I confirm that the position of the Official Opposition send an unequivocal message. The men of violence is to support the Government’s efforts to bring these will not succeed. These criminals will not succeed—not criminals to justice. We believe that they have no now, not ever”. support in the wider community. The support for the My Lords, that concludes the Statement. police investigation from all political parties is welcome. The key to defeating terrorism in Northern Ireland lies 6.02 pm with all parts of the community. I endorse the Secretary of State’s appeal yesterday for anyone with information Viscount Bridgeman: My Lords, I join the noble on these criminal acts to come forward; even the Baroness the Lord President and other noble Lords in smallest piece of information could be vital and might sending our deepest sympathies to the families and help to bring this investigation to a swift conclusion. friends of Sapper Patrick Azimkar and Sapper Mark Thanks to the peace process, which was begun by Quinsey, and to those injured in this most cowardly of the previous Government and continued by this one, attacks. The murdered men were about to travel to Northern Ireland has been transformed. An Afghanistan to serve their country and to support the unrepresentative minority of dissidents are determined Afghan people. The awful events of the weekend to undo the good work of the past 15 years. It is remind us, once again, of the bravery of all those who incumbent on us all to respond to this shocking attack serve in the Armed Forces, the PSNI and the security by going about our business normally, but with increased services. We also thank the emergency services and vigilance; the good work of recent years must continue. medical staff; we are, indeed, all indebted to them. Terrorism in any form must never succeed. The Independent Monitoring Commission review confirmed our concerns about the dissident threat. We 6.06 pm have raised those concerns here and in another place. The attack follows a succession of near misses on Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, I thank the noble police. The chief constable of the PSNI has been Baroness for repeating the Statement. We on these consistent and increasingly public about the threat Benches agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments posed by dissident republican groups. That must tell expressed by the Secretary of State. We must first 999 NI: Massereene Army Base[LORDS] NI: Massereene Army Base 1000

[LORD SMITH OF CLIFTON] the television yesterday and saw quite extraordinary extend our sincere sympathy to the families of Sappers scenes of people of all faiths gathered outside the Mark Quinsey and Patrick Azimkar, the two soldiers barracks. That is a clear statement of the determination who were killed on Saturday night. Those two young of the people of Northern Ireland not to go back but men were doing their duty and serving the whole to move forward and to have confidence in the police community, before proceeding to Afghanistan. Our process. condolences go to their families, friends and colleagues— some of whom are still in Antrim, some already in 6.11 pm Afghanistan. We also send our thoughts and sympathies to the families of those injured in the attack and Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, I have continue to have in our thoughts the staff of Antrim already had the opportunity this afternoon to express Area Hospital, who continue to care for the wounded. my sympathy, and I do so again with those families We are indebted to all of them. who have suffered. With every ounce of sincerity that I can muster, I appeal from these Benches that there We utterly condemn this outrageous atrocity. As we should be no retaliation in Northern Ireland for the saw and heard from the people of Antrim in the media dreadful execution that occurred at Massereene barracks. this morning, this attack has been roundly condemned It is important to us all. It would be an insult to the and received no justification or support from any families of those who have lost loved ones if any quarter. These brutal murders serve no cause, nor have retaliation took place. they resulted in anything but suffering for the families involved. We add our voice to those who have appealed On the issue of intelligence, I have had 12 responses for anyone with any information about this shocking to Parliamentary Questions in the past three or four attack to report it to the police, and to co-operate with months; 50 per cent of these have been non-answers in the police investigation. We also reinforce our support so far as I have been told that this is an operational for the chief constable, Sir Hugh Orde, and his PSNI intelligence matter. Particularly in the light of the officers who have been subject to several—thankfully, Prime Minister’s unequivocal statement that these killers so far, unsuccessful—attacks in recent months. will be brought to justice, I should like to know the state of intelligence in Northern Ireland at the moment. Under no circumstances—I echo what has already We have had the chief constable for months tell us been said—should these atrocities disrupt the continuing about the dangers. We have had the recent warning. peace process in Northern Ireland and the move towards We have had an unequivocal statement by the Prime full devolution. I have two questions for the noble Minister. Yet one Parliamentary Answer that I got Baroness. First, will she confirm that any additional seems to contradict it all, saying: resources that are needed for this investigation will be given to the PSNI? Secondly, does she agree that the “The PSNI is also unable to provide information on charges relating specifically to dissident republican attacks as they are not people of Antrim have sent a great message to those attributed to individual dissident groupings. The Public Prosecution who carried out this barbaric act? By coming together Service does not record what organisation a suspect is believed to in a quite remarkable and quiet dignity, they have represent in its conviction statistics”.—[Official Report, 26/11/08; shown that nothing will set the peace process back and col. WA318.] that there is no appetite from the people of Northern Is there not a contradiction? Are we not having a Ireland to go back to the violence of the past. cover-up? Is there intelligence and, if so, why is it not acted on? Is there no intelligence and is that why we 6.09 pm find ourselves with this guessing game, which was not at the weekend successful? Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am grateful to both the noble Viscount and the noble Lord for their strong support of the Statement. I wholeheartedly Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am delighted endorse the thanks that the noble Viscount, Lord in many ways that the noble Lord speaks of the need Bridgeman, gave to the emergency and medical staff. for us in this House to take a very firm view on the We all endorse the statement that the operational need to ensure that there is no retaliation in response independence of the chief constable is absolutely necessary to these atrocities. I wholeheartedly endorse the clear and will and must continue. I confirm that the chief and proper statement from the noble Lord and am constable, post-devolution, will be able to request grateful to him for expressing those views. further technical back-up, if needed. He will enjoy the I sign off the Parliamentary Questions on Northern same rights as any other chief constable in the United Ireland, so I know the noble Lord’s concerns. Of Kingdom. course, it would not be appropriate for me from this On the change in threat, I confirm that the decision Dispatch Box to make comments on the security level was taken on the basis of the past nine months. There or any other aspects of security. If later on today or at was no prior intelligence about this attack. As for some time tomorrow we could have a short conversation, security at bases, it is the practice that after any perhaps we could find some way forward. However, I incident there should be a reassessment of the security must reiterate that there is no cover-up—absolutely no arrangements. And yes, absolutely top priority will be cover-up; it is just that security issues have to be dealt given to these investigations, with the most experienced with in a very responsible and secure way. personnel. The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, is right Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, I add my voice that these atrocities must not disrupt and derail the to the condolences that have been offered all round the current peace process. Like the noble Lord, I watched House. We all heard yesterday and read in the papers 1001 NI: Massereene Army Base[9 MARCH 2009] NI: Massereene Army Base 1002 this morning the statements made by the various increased in the week before the atrocity as a response Northern Ireland parties following these appalling to the increased threat levels. In addition, following murders, some of them in sharp contrast to what any such attack, the security at all barracks is looked might have been said by individuals on similar occasions into again, and I am confident that that is taking place in the past, and all the more welcome for that. Does now. As to whether the Semtex was a new source or the Lord President agree that the sincerity of those whether these were missiles or guns which had been in statements will be judged by the actions that follow, use in the past, I do not know. If I can, I will come and particularly by the speed with which any information back to the noble Lord in writing. I will seek what that comes to anyone’s attention about who might information I can and put a copy of that letter in the have perpetrated these murders is given to the police to Library. But whether I will be able to provide that enable prosecutions to follow as quickly as possible? information, I am not entirely sure.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Yes, my Lords, the Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, I make an obvious many comments and statements that have been made point. From this tragedy, there is one ameliorating are a testament to the way in which we have moved feature: the two communities of Northern Ireland are forward and the speed at which we have moved forward. probably closer together now than they have been at I also agree that the sincerity of statements will be any time over the past 40 years. In relation to a matter judged by actions, and we look forward to those who which has already been alluded to, tangentially, in the know the people involved in these atrocities going to Statement, will the Minister confirm that the Government the PSNI. I wholeheartedly agree that the statements of the Republic of Ireland will relentlessly pursue the made are extremely important, and are tangible proof authors of this murderous episode? that the peace process has worked, is working and will work. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, the noble Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, I express my sympathy Lord is right that the communities in Northern Ireland to the families of the two soldiers who were tragically are closer now than they have been for many years. killed and wish to let the families know that we in The resolve shown by the two communities yesterday Northern Ireland admire very much what their sons shows us that this closeness will continue and that they were doing and how much we abhor what has happened. will not allow themselves to be drawn apart as they There is widespread distaste at what occurred at the were in the past. In relation to the pursuit of the weekend across the whole of Northern Ireland, in perpetrators, we do not know where they come from, both communities. However, one has to say that there but I am confident that there will be proper co-operation, seems to have been a lack of security at Massereene if necessary, with the police in the south as well as with barracks. We should not hesitate to say that. There the PSNI. I am sure that the two forces will work very had been a severe warning, and what kind of security closely together if it is found that the perpetrators existed at the barracks at that time must be fully either came from or escaped to the south. investigated. On the same day, 30 young policemen were killed in Lord Gilbert: My Lords, your Lordships will, I Baghdad. So often it is the same pattern: they were hope, have noticed the many supportive comments congregating or queuing up outside the entrance to a which have come in the past day or so from the United police station in Baghdad. That seems to occur so States Congress. Can my noble friend assure us that regularly in Iraq. The trouble is that in a situation in the people who made those comments will receive the which there is a serious threat from the Real IRA, you gratitude in writing of her Majesty’s Government for should not be meeting or congregating outside barracks taking the position that they have? or police stations. The only other small point I make is that I am An incident such as this gives a resolve to politicians always distressed when I see that the media use the from all parties to ensure that the Belfast agreement expression that people claimed responsibility for a proceeds successfully in Northern Ireland. However, disgusting act. In my language, you claim responsibility at the same time, there is an adverse effect that must be for something that is creditworthy and you admit a warning. People are concerned and become more responsibility for something that is disgusting. I hope divided when instances such as this happen. The one that our Government will, in future, use that sort of message that I got in Northern Ireland today, mainly language. There was a slip in the Statement that my from the unionist community, was that they were told noble friend made. Also—and I hesitate to take issue that the Provisional IRA had done away with all its with my long-time friend, the noble Lord, Lord firearms and explosives. This new Real IRA has Semtex— Maginnis—these were not executions, they were murders. and now we see that it as automatic weapons. Was that Semtex and were those automatic weapons owned Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am sure previously by the Provisional IRA, or has the Real that the Government will express their gratitude to IRA imported into Northern Ireland new explosives those people in the United States whom I quoted and new automatic weapons? earlier—the Secretary of State and President Obama. Language is always important. I was repeating the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, we all share Statement that was made in the other place, but I will the distaste which has been expressed by the noble certainly draw attention to the issues that have been Lord and his admiration for those young men and the raised. I completely understand where my noble friend way in which they chose to be part of the British Army is coming from. Claiming something and admitting it serving our country. Security at all Army bases was are very different things. 1003 NI: Massereene Army Base[LORDS] Banking: Asset Protection Scheme 1004

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] which helps ensure financial stability, safeguards the I take this opportunity to respond to an earlier interests of the taxpayer and supports the real economy question from the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney. The by increasing lending. Government have no reason to doubt the IMC and IICD reports regarding PIRA decommissioning. The Under the asset protection scheme, the Government IMC made it clear in 2006 that small quantities of will provide protection against certain credit losses on PIRA weapons were held back by local groups in particular assets in exchange for a fee. A first loss, defiance of leadership instructions. similar to the excess in insurance policies, remains with the institution. Lloyds will meet all of this. The Lord Hylton: My Lords, this latest outbreak of protection provided by the Government will cover violence has been universally condemned. I was therefore 90 per cent of the remaining loss. The other 10 per very glad to hear that its investigation will receive top cent will remain with the institutions as an incentive to priority. However, the Statement reveals that there has manage the assets prudently. The Government will been approximately one such attack per month since accept applications to the scheme from other eligible last year by republican splinter groups. Can the noble institutions until 31 March. Baroness confirm that those past incidents will receive Lloyds announced on Saturday its intention to the same kind of priority in their investigation, particularly place £260 billion of assets in the scheme, on which it compared with the time and effort that has been has already taken impairments of some £10 billion, invested in so-called historic inquiries? and through the first loss mechanism it will retain a No one today has so far mentioned the civilian further exposure of £25 billion. Any losses beyond this guards who are apparently looking after military will be borne 90 per cent by the Treasury and 10 per establishments. Can the noble Baroness say whether cent by Lloyds. The protection will cover a range of these people are all armed? What are their instructions assets, including mortgages, unsecured personal loans, on the use of force and, particularly, the use of weapons? corporate and commercial loans and Treasury assets. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: I am confident that Lloyds will pay a fee of £15.6 billion in new non-voting investigations into the attacks mentioned in the Statement B shares. These will count as core tier 1 capital. The are already receiving priority. These attacks have, to Treasury has also agreed to replace its existing £4 billion some extent, been successful, but I draw your Lordships’ of preference shares. Current shareholders will be able attention to many attacks which have not happened, to purchase these ordinary shares as part of an open precisely because of the excellent policing of the PSNI offer. The Treasury will take up its pro-rata share of in Northern Ireland. Too often we forget that fact. the open offer, so maintaining its minimum voting In relation to the guards who were guarding the share at 43.5 per cent, and will subscribe for any barracks. I understand that it is normal practice. Barracks additional shares not taken up by existing shareholders. are often guarded by security personnel rather than by If no other shareholders take up their entitlements, soldiers. As to what their instructions were or whether the Treasury’s ownership of ordinary shares will increase or not they were armed, I do not know, but I will come to 65 per cent. Taking into account B shares paid as a back to the noble Lord in writing. fee, its economic ownership will reach up to 77 per cent. Banking: Asset Protection Scheme As my right honourable friend set out, the asset Statement protection scheme is a key step to put banks on a stronger footing, insuring their balance sheets and 6.28 pm boosting lending to businesses and individuals. As The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury part of this deal, in return for access to the asset (Lord Myners): My Lords, with the leave of the House, protection scheme, Lloyds has agreed to increase its I will now repeat a Statement made in another place lending by an additional £14 billion over the next by my right honourable friend the Financial Secretary 12 months: £3 billion for homebuyers and £11 billion to the Treasury on the asset protection scheme and the for business lending. It has made a similar commitment agreement, in principle, reached on Saturday between for 2010. Consistent with RBS, Lloyds will also be the Treasury and Lloyds Banking Group. The Statement required to present a detailed implementation plan to is as follows: the Government and to report monthly on compliance “Mr Speaker, the Chancellor is travelling to Brussels, with the lending agreements. The Government will ahead of the meeting of the European Community publish an annual report on these arrangements, which Finance Ministers tomorrow, to discuss the G20 Finance will be made available to Parliament. The agreements Ministers’ meeting this weekend. He has therefore are binding and will be reflected in the performance-related asked me to make this Statement. pay of bank staff involved. The asset protection scheme was announced in Another condition for Lloyds—as for any bank January. In his Statement on 26 February, my right participating in the scheme—is a requirement to develop honourable friend gave details of the participation of a sustainable long-term remuneration policy. This means the RBS Group, and he mentioned the negotiations reviewing policies and implementing new policies under way with Lloyds. The approach we adopted consistent with the FSA’s new code of remuneration with Lloyds is similar to that with RBS. Discussion practice. We have agreed that no discretionary bonuses involved a large amount of complex detail and it was will be paid in 2009, except to junior staff earning on important to take time to reach a satisfactory conclusion. average £20,000, and that there will be no annual free An agreement, in principle, has now been reached award of shares at all. 1005 Banking: Asset Protection Scheme[9 MARCH 2009] Banking: Asset Protection Scheme 1006

At the heart of the current financial and economic The Statement says that the Government will not problems around the world is a crisis of confidence be interfering in the running of the bank. How can about bank assets. Lack of confidence is having profound that be reconciled with specifying lending levels and effects on UK companies and individuals who are not dictating salary particulars? Lloyds is to lend £14 billion able to secure business loans or mortgages. The critical in the next year and another £14 billion the following obstacle to expanding lending is uncertainty about the year. What will happen if it fails to meet these targets? value of banks’ balance sheets, so we are acting now to Will it be forced into making loans that it might enable the banks to clean up their balance sheets, otherwise not make, or which it deems to be imprudent? making them more able to lend to individuals and Is another banking bubble being created? We are businesses. Transformation will not happen overnight, where we are today because of inappropriate and but this is the essential starting point, and it must go imprudent lending. Pressure on banks must inevitably hand in hand with broader reform of banking supervision mean pressure to make marginal loans. and regulation. If bonuses are to be forbidden in the current year, Action must be taken, not only here but by will this result in constructive dismissal for some senior Governments across the world. The alternative is a executives? If so, have they had to be compensated failure of the banking system, here and elsewhere, with higher basic salaries, which are, after all, the which would make the recession longer and more other side of the remuneration package? Or have all painful, and put more jobs at risk. Getting the banks the senior executives voluntarily surrendered any bonuses to lend again is essential to our economic recovery and to which they may have been entitled? Mr Daniels of to our fight against the global recession. Lloyds bank said that he was not able to do proper The Government are clear that British banks are and due diligence before Lloyds bank purchased HBOS. best owned and managed commercially, and not by Can the Minister say whether there has been a proper the Government. The future of the UK as a financial look at the enlarged bank before committing so much centre, and the future of our economy and thousands more money on this occasion? of jobs, depends on being able to run banks commercially. Each time that a new injection is made to the All countries are having to deal with the same problem: banking sector, fresh assurances are given. How many how to isolate assets which are damaging confidence more times will fresh capital, fresh guarantees or other in the banking sector and preventing banks from forms of financing be needed? Perhaps the Minister lending more. Over the coming weeks, we will continue could tell us. Where the Government are a shareholder, to discuss with other countries, including the US and are they capable of permitting a good commercial the European Union, how best to co-ordinate our decision if it is a bad political decision? Or will the approach to the common challenges we face. difficulty of doing this make it impossible for the As part of our presidency of the G20, the Chancellor Government to leave banks to be run on a commercial recently wrote to Finance Ministers setting out a set of basis, as they have said that they will? shared principles for dealing with asset protection and insurance. It is essential to restore confidence in the 6.39 pm banks, allow them to clean up and rebuild, and get Lord Newby: My Lords, this is another depressing lending going again. The economic recovery and announcement and another step in the creeping thousands of jobs depend on it”. nationalisation of the banks, yet the Government That concludes the Statement. seem to want to pretend that that is not what is happening. The Statement says: 6.35 pm “The Government are clear that British banks are best owned Lord Howard of Rising: My Lords, I thank the and managed commercially and not by the Government”. Minister for introducing the Statement to the House, The truth is that both RBS and now Lloyds Banking although, to my mind, it poses more questions than it Group are effectively owned by the Government. The answers. I declare that I have banking arrangements big issue with which we are still grappling—and the with Lloyds bank. Government certainly are—is what this means in terms The Statement said: of the management of the bank and whether, having “The Treasury has also agreed to replace its existing £4 billion put such huge amounts of public money into it, the of preference shares”. bank will now be run in the public interest. It does not say what with. It goes on to say: The Government have said they are not going to be “Current shareholders will be able to purchase these ordinary involved in the running of the bank. We might be less shares as part of an open offer”. concerned about this, given that they have set out What shares, and what open offer? Are there to be two some general principles, if Mr Daniels had not described offers, one to the Treasury and another to shareholders, taxpayers’ shareholding as just another name on the or is there to be one offer only? If it is to the shareholders, share register. For the British public, that attitude is they had probably better watch out. They are a pretty not acceptable. Does the Minister believe that Mr Daniels, sad collection, who have had their savings almost if that is his view, is the right person to continue in his completely wiped out through the merger with HBOS—a position at the bank? Can the Minister also tell us merger brokered by the Prime Minister which has what the consequences of today’s announcement are proved to be as disastrous as his sale of gold. I know in terms of the composition of the board of the bank? that it was not opposed by my party, but that was on Will additional government directors now be appointed? the assumption that the Government would have taken What happened to the October agreement on lending appropriate steps to ensure that they knew what they and what were the consequences of that in terms of were doing with the step that they were promoting. any increased lending over the past few months? The 1007 Banking: Asset Protection Scheme[LORDS] Banking: Asset Protection Scheme 1008

[LORD NEWBY] were engaging in the management of the banks. It is Government say that Lloyds has agreed to increase its necessary to see those lending conditions—on which I lending by an additional £14 billion over the next will say more in a moment in response to a question 12 months. What is not clear to me is what that is from the noble Lord, Lord Newby—as being an integral additional to. Is it additional to the amount of lending part of the transaction, the exchange of value. The that Lloyds was undertaking a year ago or additional Government are providing additional support for Lloyds to some unspecified level of lending that the board Banking Group in exchange for Lloyds Banking Group agreed but of which we are ignorant? Given the high entering into lending commitments. Lloyds believes amount of government involvement, additional that it can meet those commitments in accordance expenditure and commitment to the bank, we need with its existing credit criteria. There would be no greater clarity on what this alleged additional expenditure sense at all in the Government encouraging banks to is going to consist of. lend irresponsibly. Remuneration is clearly going to be looked at by No one is being constructively dismissed from Lloyds the Government. A number of issues will no doubt Banking Group by virtue of the decision on bonuses. arise about existing members of staff. Will Sir James A number of members of the board of Lloyds Banking Crosby still be entitled to his pay-off and pension pot Group have voluntarily surrendered their rights and and will the same apply to Mr Cummings, whose entitlement in respect of bonuses, and for that I commend disastrous commercial property loans helped destroy them. They set an example which others should have HBOS but who still has a £6 million pension pot? The followed. Government say there will not be bonuses to the extent previously planned. Can the Minister confirm The noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, mentioned that £80 million is still being planned as bonuses for questions concerning due diligence and the observations the coming year? We accept that the bank’s staff may made by Mr Eric Daniels to the Treasury Select be unhappy to have their bonuses removed, even low-paid Committee that he had insufficient time to carry out bonuses; that may not be good for morale, which is the due diligence on behalf of Lloyds TSB before proposing reason given for retaining bonuses. But can the Minister the acquisition of HBOS. The Treasury has carried accept that the decisions that the Government have out considerable due diligence on the loans which had to make in respect of the banks are bad for the Lloyds is putting into the asset protection scheme but morale of the British public when it sees billions of there is still a great deal more work to be done. That is pounds going into institutions which would otherwise why these asset protection agreements will not be be bust? Given his long-standing commercial experience completed until early summer. and understanding, can the Minister tell us whether The noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, asked any other company in this circumstance would still be whether I believe that the board of Lloyds and offering bonuses to staff for any reason whatsoever? Government will be able to make the distinction between Finally, can the Minister accept—I am sure that he a good commercial decision and a bad political one. does—that private shareholders feel deeply aggrieved The fact that the Government wish to keep the Royal about what has happened to them and are unclear Bank of Scotland and Lloyds Banking Group in the about the options which were explored by the Government listed company sector, accountable and responsible to when the merger between Lloyds TSB and HBOS all shareholders, is clear evidence of the fact that we went ahead? The Government have published part of recognise that these banks must be run in a commercial their evidence in respect of this to the Office of Fair manner, accountable to all shareholders rather than Trading. That evidence explains that they were looking treating one shareholder as being more influential at alternatives to the merger at that point but not why than another. That also answers the first of the points they rejected them. Can the Minster explain that now? made by the noble Lord, Lord Newby, about these two banks being nationalised. They are not nationalised; they are public companies in which the Government 6.44 pm are a large shareholder, but only temporarily. Lord Myners: My Lords, in answer to the first The noble Lord, Lord Newby, asked whether Mr Eric question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Daniels was the right person to continue in his position Rising, about whether there are one or two offers of at the bank. I would encourage noble Lords to take shares, there is one conversion from preference shares account of the excellent record of Lloyds TSB under to ordinary shares and one offer to existing shareholders the leadership of Mr Eric Daniels when seeking to of Lloyds Banking Group. If existing shareholders form a view on his competence as the chief executive take up their shares and the Government take up only of a banking group. His capacity to manage in an their pro-rata ownership, the Government’s ownership effective way the day-to-day affairs of a major bank shareholding will be maintained but private shareholders was very evident in the way he performed those duties will also maintain their shareholding. If private at Lloyds TSB. However, it must obviously be a matter shareholders do not take up the shares consequent on for shareholders whether they regard Mr Daniels and the conversion, the Government’s shareholding will his colleagues as the right people to be leading the increase. enlarged group. The Government are not involved in the day-to-day In making that observation, I also draw attention running of the banks. They do not intend to be and to the fact that some 80 per cent of the assets that should not be. The noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lloyds Banking Group is placing into the asset protection Rising, asked about the lending conditions and whether programme come from the old HBOS business as these were not evidence of the fact that the Government opposed to the Lloyds business, which provides some 1009 Banking: Asset Protection Scheme[9 MARCH 2009] Banking: Asset Protection Scheme 1010 further verification of the skills of the Lloyds banking is completed, the deal will not be completed for Lloyds team. Noble Lords will no doubt be aware that the to be included in the scheme until that due diligence is senior management of the new Lloyds Banking Group completed in the summer, as he put it. is drawn almost solely from previous employees of I have another question. As the Treasury is effectively Lloyds TSB, with very few of those senior positions underwriting the rights issue and the share price that being held by former executives of HBOS. Lloyds will be in that rights issue, does that mean that the Banking Group is able to make these lending Treasury has approved a particular price in advance of commitments, which are in addition to the loans that the due diligence that it is now doing? it had already intended to extend—they truly are additional loans—in the light of the fact that it now Lord Myners: My Lords, to answer my noble friend’s has, at a 14 per cent level, one of the strongest core tier first question, the asset protection scheme is open to one capital ratios of any bank in the world. In the eligible institutions, which are defined for the time steps that we have taken with the Royal Bank of being as UK-authorised deposit-takers with a minimum Scotland and Lloyds Banking Group, we have put the of £25 billion of eligible assets. It is a scheme that is capital levels to levels that compare very favourably designed for banks; it is not designed for organisations with those in many other jurisdictions. whose primary activity is in another line of business. Questions were also asked by the noble Lord, Lord The agreements reached with the boards of the Newby, about the pensions and other entitlements of Royal Bank of Scotland and the Lloyds Banking Sir James Crosby and Mr Peter Cummings. Noble Group are sufficiently detailed for those boards and Lords will no doubt be aware that the executives of the Treasury to enter into commitments, while recognising UK Financial Investments, the body that holds these that much further work needs to be done to be assured shares on behalf of the Treasury, has asked Sir Victor that we understand the toxicity of the assets and to Blank and Sir Philip Hampton, respectively chairmen ensure that we are putting a sufficiently strong and of Lloyds Banking Group and Royal Bank of Scotland, robust ring fence around the most at-risk assets. The to carry out investigations into the conduct of directors structure of the scheme is designed to ensure that the in the Royal Bank of Scotland and in HBOS. Those first loss arising from the normal course of business investigations are being carried out with the support will continue to be held by the shareholders of the of external legal advisers, and no doubt reports will be banks, whereas extreme loss, or high-stress loss, will made back to those boards. I emphasise to noble fall into the asset protection scheme in respect of Lords that the decisions taken will be for the boards of 90 per cent of that loss. the new RBS and the new Lloyds Banking Group, Finally, my noble friend asked whether we are rather than for individual shareholders. underwriting. We are not underwriting a public offer There was a final question from the noble Lord, in the sense that we have already committed £4 billion Lord Newby, as to the circumstances in which a loss- of equity to the Lloyds Banking Group, which is making group can pay bonuses. The answer lies in currently held in the form of preference shares. Those good schemes that attempt to localise performance are tier one capital, but not core tier one. By converting objectives and tie them up within an overall corporate them to ordinary shares, they become core tier one, objective. For example, you can have a branch that has and it is those shares on which we are offering a performed exceedingly well. You can have a counter claw-back facility to the other shareholders of Lloyds clerk who, through her performance, engagement with Banking Group. If those shareholders do not take up customers and helpfulness has achieved individual those shares, the Government will continue to have a performance goals. Many of these schemes attempt to £4 billion exposure, albeit now in the form of ordinary ensure that there can be that localised identification of shares rather than preference shares. an exceptional contribution by an individual, notwithstanding that the group as a whole may not Lord Tugendhat: My Lords, given that we are where achieve its targets. From my experience, we had similar we are, I support the measures that the Minister has challenges at Marks and Spencer during a difficult just announced; but given that we are where we are, time, and this is not an easy issue to get right. I believe does he not think, at least with hindsight, that to that is why the directors of Lloyds Banking Group, if promote or, at the very least, to allow the deal to go they were here rather than me, would explain that they through that has led to the HBOS contamination of are attempting to pay modest bonuses, notwithstanding the previously relatively healthy Lloyds TSB was a the very large losses that the newly combined group great mistake? has reported. Lord Myners: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, brings to his question considerable knowledge 6.54 pm and experience in banking, but I fear that he is incorrect Lord Barnett: My Lords, I strongly, in principle, in suggesting that the Government promoted the merger support what the Government are doing. Indeed, I of Lloyds TSB and HBOS. The merger was promoted have not heard a serious alternative, although we have by the board of directors of Lloyds TSB, agreed by the had lots of questions. My noble friend talked of other directors of HBOS and agreed with alacrity and a very eligible institutions that could be brought into the huge majority by the shareholders of both banks. The scheme. Would that include large insurance companies Government subserviated the interests of competition that possibly had substantial toxic assets? From what to the need for financial stability in the context of he was saying about the further due diligence that I am enabling the merger to take place but did not in any delighted to hear the Treasury is doing before the deal circumstances promote such a transaction. 1011 Banking: Asset Protection Scheme[LORDS] Banking: Asset Protection Scheme 1012

Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, the Minister referred Minister could do which would bring huge benefit to in his Statement to the broader reform of banking the process. I have already written to the Minister on supervision and regulation. May I ask him for further this subject and I should like to raise it again, particularly and better particulars about that? What does he have as he has already made reference to Sir David Walker, in mind about banking supervision? Surely it will take who was the author of this idea at its first manifestation place immediately. Is that right? Is Parliament to be some 30 years ago. consulted about the regulations? When will they be made, if at all? Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Question?

Lord Myners: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely Lord James of Blackheath: My Lords, a question is correct to draw the distinction between regulation and coming. I should like the Minister to give urgent supervision. I have spoken in the past at this Dispatch consideration to the restitution of London Rules, which Box about the inadequacies of supervision. Boards would provide an easy and rapid solution to the problem. clearly failed in their supervision, management and The businesses in this toxic fund are not sole-banked direction of these major banking institutions and they with Lloyds Bank or the Royal Bank of Scotland. were enabled in that failure by institutional shareholders They are often syndicated among many other banks who inadequately engaged with them and in many and you have to prevent the virus from spreading to cases approved the strategies which proved to be seriously the destruction of the banks around them. If the value-destructive. Sir David Walker is carrying out a Minister brings in the principle of London Rules, he review of the governance of banks and I will be will have the means of regulating the multi-bank process making a speech on this subject at the National now and giving an enormous advantage to the rescue Association of Pension Funds in Edinburgh later this process. Will the Minister give urgent consideration to week. I wish I could share what I am going to say but, bringing back London Rules? as I have not decided what to say, I cannot do that. No doubt some junior Treasury official will give me some Lord Myners: My Lords, first, let me apologise. I words which I will either use or not use, depending on did use the word “toxic” and it probably is an incorrect whether I find them appealing. I will try to maintain word. I have no difficulty in saying sorry. The issue my own freedom of thought, despite the oppressive around these assets is partly to do with the fact that powers of the Civil Service to constrain a Minister they are poisonous, in that correct definition of toxic, from expressing his views on anything. I say that in the but also that they are currently suffering from illiquidity. knowledge that they cannot get to me when I am One of the virtues of the type of scheme that we have standing at the Dispatch Box. offered the banks is that it provides an opportunity for There are areas where supervision, government and time and patience to see values recover. As the noble engagement need to improve. The noble Lord, Lord Lord, Lord James of Blackheath, knows, the London Turner, will on 18 March be producing his report on Rules worked rather well in a different environment. I regulation. I believe that will produce a number of am not sure they would work as well now in an important themes around capitalisation, macro-prudential environment in which loans are so widely distributed regulation, liquidity management and the responsibility and where the lenders are based all over the world and of directors. There is also a global context which we the asset is now often in the hands of a hedge fund need to pursue as part of the G20 and revisiting the rather than in the hands of a bank. The London Rules role of the Financial Stablity Forum and the IMF. operated in a previous environment in which most There is much work to be done, therefore, and no lending was domestic and mostly under the supervision doubt this House will be informed as progress is made. of the Bank of England. I first came to work in the City in 1972 or 1973 during the secondary banking crisis. The London Lord James of Blackheath: My Lords, I should first Rules worked then but I do not think they would work of all declare that I am in possession of a pension as well now. That said, talks are going on at the from Lloyds Bank. Before the House thinks it has moment which seek to promote codes and practices discovered a new scandal, I should hasten to add it is which are very similar to those which we associate only £32 per month and I did not have the benefit of with the London Rules. the intercession of the noble Lord, Lord Myners, in its negotiation. I am concerned about the constant use of the word Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, pursuant “toxic”, which is misleading and extremely dangerous to the earlier question of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, in this context. “Toxic”implies that it is beyond recovery; about transparency, does the Minister participate in it is a death process that is going to go to the fulfilment signing off the Statement which is going to be made of complete death, which is not how we should regard first in another place and repeated by himself here? If this. The Minister and I have shared the experience of he does, does he apply to it the test of whether the what was once the R&R, the reconstruction and renewal Statement contains the information that he would programme of Lloyd’s of London. You could have want if he was in opposition in your Lordships’ House said that every syndicate in Lloyd’s was toxic but most as against being in Government? of them survived that process and came to a very big fulfilment. The only way to approach the so-called Lord Myners: My Lords, I am entirely satisfied with toxic fund is to regard it as another reconstruction and the completeness of the Statement made by my colleague renewal fund. For that purpose there is one thing the in the other place. 1013 Banking: Asset Protection Scheme[9 MARCH 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1014

Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] issue licences? Does the Minister feel that the MMO could play a very useful role not only in maintaining Committee (7th Day) an impartial role in negotiating between conflicting 7.08 pm interests and ensuring that all relevant voices are heard but also in contributing its knowledge and experience Clause 114 : Grounds for designation of MCZs to the designation process directly? Naturally, we have received some very strong Amendment A123 had been retabled as Amendment representations from the conservation bodies that they A135A. would prefer to keep control of the process of designation. They have some concerns that, if control of the process Amendment A124 not moved. is given to a body that does not have conservation as its sole focus, the end result will be too watered down Amendment A125 to be effective. However, the MMO has a responsibility Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach to contribute to sustainable development and will, we hope, have an even stronger duty in this area by the A125: Clause 114, page 68, line 21, leave out “it thinks that” time that the Bill leaves your Lordships’ House. It is Lord Taylor of Holbeach: These amendments represent also subject to scrutiny by Parliament and directions a heavy-duty grouping but we are keen to ensure we and guidance by Defra. What grounds are there for concentrate the debate around the main issues. While I thinking that it would be an ineffective champion of seek to move Amendment A125, I will speak to the an effective and manageable conservation network? others, or should I say address the issue they have in There is, of course, a further safeguard in this Bill common. At first sight, the amendments might appear that the zones are to be designated by the Secretary of to delete thought from the process. Deleting “it thinks State, based on recommendations. The current thinking that” or “the appropriate authority thinks”, or “the is that any unfeasibility in the conservation objectives MMO thinks” might suggest we are seeking to induce can be caught and amended here. If a planned an absence of thought into the Bill. This is not the development clashes with a proposed zone, it appears idea, however. On the contrary, my amendments in to be the expectation that the Secretary of State will this group seek to explore in a little more depth the spot the conflict and will ensure that the necessary management of the designation process and the basis adjustments, either to the relevant plan or the zone, on which the assessments in this part will be made. are made. There is a certain amount of judgment to be exercised This seems to be a very inefficient way of proceeding. in the designation and implementation of marine Why not build in at a much earlier stage an appreciation conservation zones. of where difficulties are likely to develop? Alternative As I am sure the next group of amendments will sites for either the development or the zone could then show, there is a great deal of disagreement about the be considered and a more optimal solution found. I relative importance of the many factors that could or prefer a system that resolves conflicts of interest early should be taken into account. It is clear from conversations and locally. Much greater reassurance would also then with Defra and the relevant stakeholders that Natural be given to stakeholders that their views would be England and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee heard at an earlier stage, eliminating the current incentive have already been tasked with and funded for the to postpone the resolution of conflict until a later organisation of consultation panels. That appointment stage to keep to targets, with all the usual reviews, follows the existing practice of designating and managing readjustments and appeals that such a policy tends to existing conservation sites such as SSSIs. Some questions, produce. I beg to move. however, have been raised about whether this is the best way forward. At this Dispatch Box, we have 7.15 pm referred to many occasions on which the MMO’s areas Lord Greenway: In voicing my support for the of responsibilities have been restricted or removed. amendments, I make it clear to the Committee that I My noble friend Lord Cathcart has been keeping a have long been associated with the yachting fraternity list, which I believe is nearly into double figures. I am and I will move amendments proposed by the British afraid that we are rather inclined to view the provisions Marine Federation, which looks after the industrial as yet another addition to that list. side of the boating industry. While I would normally We fully appreciate the point that the statutory also speak for the Royal Yachting Association, the conservation bodies represent a wealth of experience Opposition Front Bench will do so in Committee, with and expertise in conservation matters and that it would my full support. be counterproductive to separate them into marine and terrestrial-based organisations. However, our The Minister of State, Department of Energy and understanding of the MMO from discussions on the Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food earlier part of the Bill was that it should be an umbrella and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): This is organisation with the links and responsibility to coordinate a good way to start today’s sitting. I fully recognise the between and rely on more specialised bodies in a point that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, raised about relevant area when necessary. the importance of being sure about the way in which Why, therefore, is the MMO being completely isolated the appropriate authority should seek to designate from any involvement in the designation of zones that marine conservation zones and the way in which the will impact enormously on its responsibilities to draw MMO carries out public consultation in relation to up and implement marine plans, and on its ability to by-laws. I fully accept that, in moving the amendment, 1015 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1016

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] our arguments. Our view, which informs the Bill’s the noble Lord raised a number of interesting points provisions, is that, given the nature and importance of about the role of Ministers—the hierarchy of decision- these matters, they are for Ministers to decide. Later making, if you like—and the role of the MMO in on in our debate we will be talking about the hierarchy of providing appropriate advice. Clause 114 makes it decision-making. The debate is about information and clear that the appropriate authority for designating how it comes to the Ministers who make decisions. marine conservation zones will be the Secretary of State, Welsh Ministers or Scottish Ministers for the The effect of Amendment A125 would be to require Scottish offshore region, in the last respect acting with the appropriate authority to be sure that it is desirable the consent of the Secretary of State because the to designate a site, rather than enabling it to do so function was executively devolved, as we have previously when it thinks that it is desirable. That would impose discussed. an objective test, as opposed to the current test in the Bill, which is based on expert judgment and which The idea is that the appropriate authority—in other gives more discretion to the designating authority. The words, the relevant Ministers—will want to act on reason for having discretion is that otherwise, the bar advice and recommendations from the statutory nature for designation might be raised too high. In earlier conservation authorities and other marine bodies with debates, we were taken to task over marine nature expertise, such as the Marine Management Organisation. reserves. Only two have been established since 1981. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, that I regard the Arguably, one reason is that very high hurdles were set role of the MMO in this regard to be important and for such designation. would not, I hope, be added to the list of the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart. We are only too well aware of the The purpose of Part 5 of the Bill is to provide the importance of the MMO. tools to protect areas so that they can recover their The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, said that some take diversity and thereby enrich our seas. Some areas may the view that the designation of sites should be placed represent a significant proportion of our network of on statutory nature conservation bodies. I make it sites. In those cases, it may not be realistic to require clear that the Government do not have that intention. the appropriate authority to be sure that designation We believe that the duty to create a network of sites will contribute to conservation. We want the appropriate must lie with the Secretary of State. The various authority to be able to designate a site when it has international conventions and European directives will good reason for thinking that the site should be designated. place requirements on the UK to provide a network. Amendments A142 and A144 concern consultation Surely it is Ministers who ultimately must make the over the designation of sites. The provisions in Clause 116 decisions and be held accountable for them. have been designed to ensure, so far as reasonably Lord Tyler: I am listening with interest to the noble practicable, that every interested person is consulted Lord. Am I right in thinking that Ministers have before a designation order is made. Clearly, public executive responsibility for the designation of areas of consultation requires a degree of judgment by the outstanding natural beauty in the terrestrial planning appropriate authority, because in practice it cannot field precisely because Ministers need to be accountable always be certain that it has consulted in the best way. for such designation? Is that the comparison that he My department follows best practice on public would make? Is that the precedent that he would consultation, and my department will be carrying out make? I have some sympathy with that argument; that this consultation. It is important that the wording of is why we did not support the amendments tabled by the Bill enables the Secretary of State to reflect this the Conservative Front Bench; we believe that designation objective. is an executive decision rather than an advisory one. On rare occasions, an area may need urgent protection through immediate designation. Clause 116(10) and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I am not going so far as (11) therefore allow designation to take place on an to say that the precedent is drawn from the noble interim basis without public consultation. Amendment Lord’s example; I do not have the experience to do so. A147 might restrict the power to designate urgently, so I am clear that it should be a ministerial decision but that it could be exercised only where there was definitely Ministers can then be held accountable to Parliament. an urgent need. Paradoxically, this could weaken the The role of the various other bodies that have been protection of vulnerable and threatened sites, because mentioned so far must be to provide the necessary the appropriate authority could only act when it was advice. sure that the designation was urgently required. We have heard much in previous debates about the need to Baroness Young of Old Scone: When it comes to the reflect the precautionary principle. One risk of the designation of sites of special scientific interest in the amendment is that it might leave the Secretary of State terrestrial environment, the statutory nature conservation with too strict a test to operate to secure the urgent body Natural England decides on the designation—it protection needed for an environment when information is not a ministerial decision. So there are examples of is incomplete. situations where Ministers do not take every decision. Clearly, the Secretary of State will not act lightly. Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: That is why I did not He will need to take advice on the site from nature want to fall into any traps. I am not saying that the conservation bodies and from the MMO, and be clear noble Lord, Lord Tyler, was setting a trap for me, but I in his mind that there is an urgent need to protect it. did not want to endorse the example that he gave, By the time enough evidence for certainty is produced, because we can all look to different examples to support the features of the site might already have been damaged 1017 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1018 or destroyed. That is the reason that we want to allow weight that certain factors will have when designation the appropriate authority—in this case, the Secretary of marine conservation zones is considered. I speak to of State—to exercise some judgment. Amendment A127, but I will address the other Amendments A187 to A192, and Amendments A194, amendments, which, as with the last group, form a A195 and A197, remove the words “the MMO thinks” platform for a debate on a key issue. from Clauses 126 to 129, which relate to the making of by-laws, emergency by-laws and interim by-laws. These 7.30 pm words acknowledge that the MMO will need to exercise In the main, they focus around Clause 114(7), which its expert judgment in deciding how best to publish ensures that the appropriate authority has the power them. The aim is to ensure, as far as is reasonably to consider the social and economic consequences of possible, that the details come to the attention of all any designation. We consider that reasonable. Indeed, interested parties. There may be different opinions on we have added our names to the amendment tabled by how best to achieve that, and we think it right for the the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, to make certain that Bill to reflect this. I assure the House that the MMO those consequences are considered. Surely it would be will operate best practice on consultation and on completely counterproductive to seek to deny the Secretary publication of its intentions; that the guidance that the of State the power to consider all consequences of a Secretary of State issues to the MMO will be clear designation when choosing whether to implement the about this; and that the MMO must then do what it recommendations. The subsection places no obligation thinks is best. on the appropriate authority to decide in favour of the I hope that, in responding to these amendments, I social and economic consequences, just to be aware of have explained why the Bill is worded to allow certain them. As I have argued on the previous group, our subjective judgments, either by the Secretary of State preference would be to have social and economic or by the MMO. It does not give the appropriate factors regarded rather earlier in the designation process authorities and the MMO complete freedom. They to try to minimise future disagreements. To proceed will need to act reasonably, and can be legally challenged with MCZs with no regard at all to other legitimate through judicial review if they fail to carry out their users of the sea would appear to be analogous to functions in a reasonable way.That is sufficient protection sticking one’s head in the sand. Conservation bodies against any arbitrary decision-making. I hope that I may not like some of the other users of the sea, but have made it clear to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, that ignoring their claims on its resources entirely is not the the MMO will have a valuable role in this process; and most constructive way forward. also that, as far as concerns decisions by the authority, Instead we have tabled an amendment which we it is right that Ministers should take them. hope will reassure the conservation bodies that there is Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I thank the Minister for genuine commitment to establishing a meaningful his reply. In the broadest terms, we agree with him. We conservation network, which we certainly hold, but certainly agree that ultimate political accountability accepting that there will be disagreements. Our should lie with the Secretary of State. Amendment A140A expresses the Sandford principle, As I said when introducing the amendments, the which is already at work in the designation of national essential reasoning behind them was to beef up the parks. In the event of an irreconcilable conflict between role of the MMO. The Minister has accepted that conservation objectives and other factors, the conservation the MMO has an important task. What he said implies objectives would win out. We feel that that places an that the MMO will be central to the designation appropriate level of legislative support for the critical process. I am not seeking to exclude from the process importance of the marine conservation zones. statutory bodies with conservation experience: without An alternative approach would be our Amendment their expertise, the MMO could not function at all. A140B, under which social and economic factors would The MMO is the key link between the marine policy be taken into account when two sites of equal conservation statement, marine plans and marine licensing. The value were being considered. More of our amendments designation of conservation zones comes into that in this group highlight some of the factors which process, and it is very important that there is a continuity might be considered other than purely conservation of decision-making that involves the MMO. objectives, such as climate change and energy security. I am grateful to the Minister for addressing these We have debated this topic a few times before, but I felt issues. I do not think that we are a million miles apart it would be useful to highlight briefly the wide range on this matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. of social and economic factors that should be considered. Addressing climate change by promoting renewable Amendment A125 withdrawn. energy is, of course, a matter of conservation as well as economics. It is a good example of why the factors Amendment A126 not moved. that should be regarded should be widened rather than narrowed. Amendment A127 Finally, the remaining amendments in this group Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach address consultation. The Bill enables the Government to proceed, as we have mentioned, with the statutory A127: Clause 114, page 68, line 23, at beginning insert conservation bodies in control of the consultation and “existing” recommendation procedure and as sole statutory providers Lord Taylor of Holbeach: These amendments follow of advice to public authorities on the ongoing on from our previous debate. They are intended to management of zones. Our amendment would open give noble Lords an opportunity to discuss the different up the possibilities for consultation a little wider, 1019 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1020

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] The process is: let us identify and designate those sites ensuring the conservation body’s primary role at the which are really important for nature conservation designation stage, but enabling the participation of and, when we know the nature of proposed management other interested bodies as well. I beg to move. activities or planning and development activities, it will be possible for the planning authority and, ultimately, Baroness Young of Old Scone: I speak to my the Minister to do the balancing act between socio- Amendment A135A and I want to touch on Amendments economic conditions and the importance of the site A136 and A140A tabled by the noble Lord, Lord and so make decisions about the management of the Taylor. He and I will probably cancel each other out site or the development and planning proposal which tonight as we are taking different views on considering has come forward. Alas, if the Minister does that at a socio-economic factors in the designation of marine point of abstraction, when people are saying, “This conservation zones. I entirely understand where he is may be important in a socio-economic way for the coming from, but I would like to try to persuade him future; we might want to put a wind farm here; we that he is wrong. I have tried this once privately and might want to put a tidal barrage here; there might be failed, so I shall now try publicly. aggregate extraction here; or this may be an important fishing area”, the Minister will have so many reasons Clearly, having a network of marine conservation for not designating that he will find it jolly difficult zones which protect the areas of the highest importance to designate. for conservation is an absolutely central part of this Bill. It is one of the elements of the Bill for which we Marine conservation zones have been heavily have argued for many years. If this were to be a weak misunderstood because they are not areas where no part of the Bill, it would take the heart out of it development is planned or no economic activity can because it originally started as a conservation Bill and be permitted. There will be many economic activities has only recently become a Bill on which everything which are perfectly combinable with the conservation else has been hung. interest of a particular site, depending on what that I want to look at the history of creating marine conservation interest is, but the appropriate time for protection areas in the UK. The Minister referred to that balancing decision to be made is when one knows this, so he knew he was going to get it in the neck on what economic development is being proposed. There this argument and we may as well carry on. Under the is a huge signalling role in designation. Having already Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 the designation of signalled to people that, whereas in the marine marine nature reserves was dismal—that is the only environment in general socio-economic requirements word to use. In more than 25 years, only three small may well be incredibly important, in this bit, most of sites have been designated. The big problem was that, the time if they are in conflict we will want the at the time, there was huge pressure against designation conservation of natural features to win out. That from socio-economic interests. The noble Lord, Lord signalling activity is very important to make sure that Taylor, would say that that was the time to face up to people exercise ingenuity in looking at where they can them, to get them out into the open and to take a direct their socio-economic development away from balanced view, but in reality all that happened over the the most important sites for nature conservation, the 25 years was that it was almost impossible to get a places that are irreparable, the jewels in the crown, designation through. which is what SSSIs are in the terrestrial environment. My second point is how we overcome what, in the I was trying to think of a good example. Noble case of the Wildlife and Countryside Act provisions, Lords may remember the Salisbury bypass, which I was virtually a veto by socio-economic interests. How am glad to say I campaigned against and which was do we ensure that we do not end up with a network of never built. It ran perilously close to damaging Salisbury sites where no one can envisage some socio-economic Cathedral. It went through the water meadows and requirement which would mean that they can be selected? could well have had an impact on the cathedral. If we In the process to be adopted for designation of MCZs, had not had a designation for that cathedral and we there will be a strong regional role and a strong had been operating the system that would exist in the consultative role. The risk is that the poor Minister, in marine environment, the Minister would have been making a decision, will be heavily lobbied by socio- saying, “I wonder if we should protect the cathedral economic interests of all kinds and he will be put in because, actually, the road is jolly important too”. I do the position that Ministers were in for 25 years under not think that any noble Lord would ever suggest that the previous rules where he will find it impossible to some of the wonderful heritage treasures that are move ahead. subject to the highest level of protection would ever be Scotland will stand out like a shining beacon in all traded away for socio-economic purposes. They are this. Under the Scottish provisions, its conservation designated simply on their heritage value, not on whether zones will be designated entirely on scientific conservation they are in an area that could get a bit crunchy in criteria. We are already seeing a difference between the terms of planning and development. four countries. On the terrestrial environment, not My belief is that the marine conservation zones—and only is there not a requirement to take socio-economic I refuse to believe that we will have a huge number of conditions into account at the time of designation of them—that will make up this important network ought sites of special scientific interest, but in the case of to be designated on their scientific evidence-based European sites, for special areas of conservation and conservation value alone. That is why I tabled Amendment special protection areas under the Natura 2000 series, A135A and which is why—I think I have probably said it has been tested in law that socio-economic conditions enough—I would not support Amendment A136, may not be taken into account in selecting those sites. tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, which says that 1021 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1022 account must be taken of socio-economic reasons. drastic. I shall listen with great care to the Minister. At Although I approve of the Sandford principle in some the moment, I believe that trying to find a Sandford circumstances, Amendment A140A, which is a Sandford order of priority, as in Amendment A140A, is the best bastardisation—if that is not an unparliamentary word— solution to the important choice we have before us. seems to insert it at the wrong time. It is saying that we might not designate something because of socio-economic Lord Greenway: Amendment A136 is tabled in my conditions but, if there is a bit of a push and a shove, name, although the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, spoke to perhaps the environmental objectives should prevail. it in passing so there is no need for me to repeat what If that is the intention of that clause, designating on he said. It has been shot down by heavy flak from my the basis of choosing those sites that are most important noble friend Lady Young and the Liberal Democrat for conservation would have a similar net outcome, so Front Bench. As for the Sandford principle, we must perhaps I could persuade the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, remember that the Bill will stand for quite a long time that Amendment A135A is better than Amendment before we have another marine Bill, and with power A140A. supplies probably becoming scarcer as time goes on, there could well be situations where the Secretary of Lord Tyler: I am very glad to follow the noble State will have to give precedence to power generation Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, because, as she sources. It would inhibit the Government somewhat at knows, I have a great deal of sympathy with her the moment to write the Sandford principle into the Bill. approach. We have a genuine dilemma here; there are several options before us, but the whole designation of Lord Eden of Winton: I have great sympathy with MCZs will be so critical to the success of the Bill that the approach taken by my noble friend Lord Taylor of there will be huge disappointment if we do not get this Holbeach and I understand his objective in doing so. right. We have looked very hard at the various options, One of the worries and anxieties that I have had and we accept that Clause 114(7) is critical to this derived from the original Explanatory Memorandum discussion. The options before us are simply to take it issued by the Government that stated in relation to out, which is the noble Baroness’s suggestion, to strengthen subsection (7): it—the purport of Amendment A136—or to modify it “Where an area contains features that are rare, threatened or declining, or forms a biodiversity hotspot, greater weight is likely quite dramatically by attempting a Sandford solution to be attached to ecological considerations. Where there is a under Amendment A140A. Simply omitting the choice of alternative areas which are equally suitable on ecological subsection will probably not be a successful solution grounds, socio-economic factors could be more significant in to this problem, for the precise reason the noble Baroness deciding which areas may be designated as an MCZ”. indicated, because we are signalling an important I think that my noble friend put this the other way aspect of the Bill. Simply taking the subsection out around to ensure that the interests of marine life will not mean that the appropriate authorities ignore triumph over the socio-economic factors. None the the economic and social consequences; they simply less, there is the potential here for considerable conflict, will not know how to rate them. Similarly, it would be and my worry as the Bill goes on—and that worry going to the opposite extreme and quite ridiculous to increases—is that the Government’s position is being strengthen this commitment to economic and social progressively weakened. It seems to me that, somewhere consequences by inflating from “may” to “must”. I behind the scenes, powerful voices representing other cannot support that. That is going in the wrong direction interests are coming to bear on this legislation to altogether. reduce the original objective which I thought the Government had set themselves in bringing the Bill 7.45 pm forward. We are left with the other option, Amendment When this whole subject was being considered and A140A, which attempts some sort of gradation, some marine reserves were being canvassed on and discussed sort of instruction to the appropriate authorities about in 2001, eminent marine experts considering marine how to take into account the prime objective of the reserves concluded that those reserves resulted in, zone designation process, which is in subsection (1), “long-lasting and often rapid increases in the abundance, diversity and put in as a secondary consideration, very firmly, and productivity of marine organisms”, the economic and social consequences. Whether that and that, is bastardising Sandford or not, I think the noble “full protection is critical to achieve the full range of benefits”. Baroness would agree that it is an attempt to do just I stress that last point: full protection is critical to that. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of achieve the full range of benefits. That is what persuades Holbeach, because he has attempted to do what many me to support the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old of us have wanted to do from the outset, which is to Scone. make sure that there is a sequence of priority and that The Bill says that, that priority is firmly stated in subsection (1). “the appropriate authority may have regard to any economic or Until the noble Baroness spoke, I was not aware of social consequences of doing so”. the Scottish comparison. It is important to us because My noble friend has strengthened that a little further, if it is true that scientific conservation criteria will be which is a wrong step to take. I have sympathy with the the sole criteria north of the border, without any views that he has expressed from the official opposition reference to economic and social considerations and Front Bench, but the right approach is that of the consequences, that must be an important indicator for noble Baroness, Lady Young. Why is it not possible us now. However, simply removing them from the Bill for the marine environment and areas of high protection by taking out subsection (7) altogether seems pretty to be given the same treatment that is given on land 1023 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1024

[LORD EDEN OF WINTON] of us in this Committee would argue otherwise—but I through the medium of SSSIs? SSSIs completely exclude am always intrigued by what doors we are opening to other activities that might damage the purpose and the future. There will not always be people who share objective behind the creation of the SSSI. There is no our values in places of responsibility. We could move question of these other factors being brought to bear. into an age when we have some pretty soulless charlatans Representations can of course be made, just as they at the helm, and we might inadvertently have opened could be made in the case of areas of high protection the door to the destruction of what we all take very in the marine environment. I am sure that the IPC seriously: the protection of the very special elements would ensure that its voice and the interests that it will of our heritage. When we consider legislation of this represent will be sufficiently strongly heard. In fact, an kind, I always think someone should think about that. almost parallel power is given to the IPC in the Even long ago, in my days in the Government, it representation that it has from the Marine Management seemed to me that every Cabinet needed a special Organisation membership within its own ranks to Cabinet Minister whose job was, in every debate, to ensure that its voice is fully taken into account. I do say, “Well, that is all very well, but I am speaking for not see why it is necessary to import socio-economic the next generation and the generation after that. factors at this stage when we are trying to protect the And, excuse me, these are the possible implications for marine environment. them”. We need to button up these things as tightly as There is a view that you can parcel up an area of the we can, so that we do not inadvertently open the door sea and allow within that area a variety of different to the erosion of what we hold dear. activities that could include dredging and turbines for What the noble Baroness has said is very important power generation, for example, and that somehow and I am glad that she is getting support from all sides marine life will go on and accept these things and take of the Committee. I hope that the Minister will take them in its stride. Surely we have learnt enough already what she said in the spirit in which she argued it and to know that that is not the case and that we need to will determine that we will not open ourselves up to emphasise as strongly as we can the need to protect quite sinister dangers. marine life: marine flora and fauna. If that is not spelt out strongly enough, the Bill will be weakened, and, 8pm when it becomes an Act, many other voices will be Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I agree with heard and many other representations will be made the sentiments expressed in this debate, particularly and its whole objective will have been lost. I hope that, those of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old somehow or another, the Government will go back to Scone. Her amendment starts to make amends for the their original concept and seek to give full power to weakness we still have in this Bill. It begins in the Long the MMO to establish marine conservation zones and Title, which does not describe anything to do with areas of the highest possible protection within those nature conservation. It is a very functional description zones to ensure that our marine life has the opportunity of activities at sea and so on. Nor do we have the to replenish and recover from centuries of depredation purpose of the designation of the MCZs. Unless the by mankind. Government spell out that purpose in some way, we will continue to have to have this sort of debate and Lord Judd: I am very glad that the noble Lord, the balance to be struck by the MMO simply will be Lord Eden, has said what he has just said. I have a that much more difficult. great deal of sympathy for the case which the noble Perhaps there are some misunderstandings of the Baroness, Lady Young, argued very moderately. When fact that sometimes it will be completely reasonable to we are debating issues of this kind—I am sorry if I have no other uses in the MCZ. Some of the highly have said this before, but I feel it very powerfully—I protected zones simply should exist—on our previous always feel that the observation that we live in an age Committee day, I think the noble Lord, Lord Taylor that knows the price of everything but the value of of Holbeach, called it a pristine environment—as of very little becomes appropriate. right for everything that lives in the sea. That is why I My experience of dealing with environmental matters am surprised to see his Amendment A139, which of this kind—in another setting, I sit in a meeting refers to the impact that designation may have on almost every month to consider planning applications legitimate uses of the sea. Apart from pirates, we in very special parts of our countryside and the rest—tells probably do not have many illegitimate uses of the sea. me that what the noble Lord has just said is very true; It implies that there is a gradation. The most legitimate the forces of rationalisation for the economic case are use of the sea is probably that of the creatures which always powerfully there, and we need very special originally lived there and have to live there still. I hope provision in our legislation to protect what is special that the noble Lord will come down on that side. and what could too easily be eroded. I therefore Given the fact that we do not have a spelt-out purpose congratulate the noble Baroness on having tabled her for Clause 114, I hope that the Government will look amendment, because what she said and what the favourably on the noble Baroness’s amendment, which amendment proposes, together with what the noble seems to be gaining consensus. Lord has just said, will help to strengthen the resolve of my noble friends, who I believe are on the right side Baroness Carnegy of Lour: On a point of clarity, of the argument on this issue. perhaps the Minister will tell us how this will look in Another point always worries me in this kind of Scotland. The noble Baroness, Lady Young, reminded deliberation. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and the us that, under the Scottish marine Bill, the inshore noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, are decent civilised men—none waters conservation zones will take account only of 1025 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1026 conservation issues. Presumably, when Scottish Ministers statement to make. I think that perhaps I will simply are considering inshore waters, they will develop the not support the amendment proposed by the noble habit of thinking purely about conservation, and when Baroness, Lady Young, but nor will I perhaps support they consider offshore waters, they and the Secretary my Front Bench in changing the word “may” to “must”. of State for Scotland, who they will have to consult, will consider economic issues as well. Have the Government faced up to the fact that two different Baroness Young of Old Scone: I wonder whether I qualifications will apply from the point of view of could try again to clarify the provision that I was Scotland? Do they realise that in Scotland the aiming for, which is not fundamentalist. The aim Administration in the Scots Parliament are making a would be for sites to be designated on the basis of their great point of just talking about “our Scottish waters”? conservation interest according to scientific evidence. They completely ignore the differentiation when they That does not mean that there would be an absolute are talking about it. There will be a curious situation requirement for that conservation interest to be which people will find rather hard to understand. Has predominant in subsequent decisions. It would be this been discussed with Scottish Ministers? Have the open to people, through the normal processes of decision- Government realised the two different aspirations that making about development and socio-economic they will be expected to have in the two parts of development and planning, to take the view that the the sea? economic proposition is more important than the nature conservation interest. Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I cannot resist speaking on My worry was that if socio-economic issues were Amendment A135A, which I agree wholly with the taken into account at the time of designation, the poor noble Baroness is absolutely crucial as to which way Minister would be bombarded with every possible this Bill will go. In particular, I cannot think through socio-economic argument and it would be difficult for this matter without thinking that it may be a recipe for him to see his way through to protecting what, by conflict. The situation, for example, in the Severn abstract criteria, would be the optimum range of protected estuary and the possibility of a large barrage, or not as sites. However, that does not mean that by simply the case may be, at present is being considered and is designating on the basis of their nature conservation extremely complex. Let us we put aside for a minute interest, you have to be stuck in a straitjacket of the generation of electricity and look at the area as a protecting that nature conservation interest irrespective matter of conservation need. Unquestionably, it would of any other consideration. That is the case when a be designated a special MCZ for special preservation. planning application on an SSSI goes ahead, as a The number of SSSIs and the number of protection result of a planning process conducted by the local zones already in place, and the designation by the authority, which ultimately goes to planning appeal European Community as a special area, bring forward for the Secretary of State to make a decision. a very complex situation legally in that area. If one looks at the economic and social consequences Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Does the noble Baroness of producing a big barrage in the Severn estuary, agree that bringing in the socio-economic consequences clearly there will be economic benefits and a complex in the original designation process avoids the risk to a situation socially. Undoubtedly, it will bring south conservation zone at a later date? She appeared to Wales and the west of England much closer together. advocate a formula for an assault on marine conservation One has to come down on one side of the argument or zones, post their designation, for socio-economic purposes. the other. The Conservative amendment to insert the I do not follow her logic. If marine conservation zones word “must” will make it much more abrasive and are meant to be properly established and protected, we make it difficult to protect a special conservation area need a process that takes all factors into account and of this kind. The Bill must give more powers to the makes them much easier to defend against future MMO. I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord assaults. Eden, on that. He made his points extremely well in this respect. There is a case for removing subsection (7) Lord Judd: Before the noble Lord spoke, the noble of Clause 114 because if it is left as it is the steamrollers Earl made a severe comment about the noble Baroness. will move in. I had the privilege of serving for several years under his chairmanship of committees, and there are few The Earl of Selborne: Perhaps I may inject a note of people in this House—I say this genuinely—for whom caution to those who rightly are determined to make I have a greater admiration. However, because I admire sure that this Bill is strengthened in its resolve towards him, I have to tell him that he is living in cloud-cuckoo- conservation. In removing Clause 114(7), under land. Would that the world were populated by people Amendment A135A, I wonder whether quite the wrong such as the noble Earl or those of the quality speaking impression will not be given, which gives conservation for the Opposition on the Front Bench. But the world sometimes a bad name. Clause 114 says that, is not populated by such people. When the going gets “the appropriate authority may have regard to any economic and going on these issues, it is ruthless. There are some real social consequences”. tykes out there who have no sense of the deeper issues That does not seem to be an unreasonable statement. to which we are committed; they are just out to make It does not mean that conservation issues have to be money. Let us call a spade a spade. They are ruthless. overridden. To suggest that the fundamentalist approach Unless there are firm safeguards in place, before we that conservation, and only conservation, in these know where we are, everything will have been eroded circumstances should be considered seems a dangerous and we will end up with a lovely urban development 1027 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1028

[LORD JUDD] and nobody is keener. Along with the many noble scheme right around our coastline. Of course I am Lords who have spoken, I hope that I am a great exaggerating, but it seems that there is a danger in that conservationist as well. However, it would be unwise direction. From that standpoint, there come times in to delete that provision and have no regard for economic our history when it is necessary to be tough and and social consequences. uncompromising. I hesitate to say it, but over these past 12 or 15 years, The noble Baroness has done a great service to the those who are interested in pure conservation and House in reminding us of what we should be about. I have strong feelings about it have become very articulate, am not asking my noble friends to accept her amendment and I have no doubt that they will fight their corner simply as it stands but I am asking them to take with the Minister or whoever gives approval. They are seriously her concern—one that I share deeply—about not the underdog in this. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, the realities with which we may be dealing in the was perhaps suggesting that they might be overridden, future and the need to stand firm. but I think that they are very robust people who rightly take a great interest in nature conservation. I Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: We have such do not fall into the camp which says they will not have a blueprint for how to do this with SSSIs on land, their voice heard. On some of the other Bills that we which, after all, we have never designated other than have taken through this Chamber—the noble Baroness, because they are sites of special scientific interest. Yet Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, mentioned the it is in the way that they are managed afterwards that CROW Act—I have been inundated with lobbying, they succeed or fail. It will be similar for MCZs. The and very vocal those representations were, too. It is fact that they should be designated because they have not as though those people do not love nature or wish some features that are worth protecting, as decided by to conserve it—I ask noble Lords not to think that I the scientists, is surely unarguable. To continue with am not one of them. But—and it is a big “but”—there the land analogy, you could have a SSSI that was needs to be a balance. Removing subsection (7) from grazed, with a number of farming activities and recreation Clause 114 would tip the balance too far the other for the public, which might be closed some of the way. year—all the arguments that we heard during the In some of the conservation zones, there may be no passage of the CROW Act. Nevertheless, it is an SSSI difficulty or conflict for the person taking the decision. and is designated as one. That is the model that we In some areas, conservation may come up as a priority; should be following, which is exactly what the amendment in others, socio-economic factors will obviously override proposes. it. That balance will have to be struck whatever we do. If we removed subsection (7), I would be very concerned 8.15 pm about it. I hope that people do not think that I am not Lord Howarth of Newport: The noble Baroness, keen on conservation, because I am, but if we remove Lady Young of Old Scone, is surely right to make her subsection (7) we run the risk of creating a slightly case as she has on the analogy of protection of SSSIs—as unbalanced view in this part of the Bill. the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, has just underscored— but also on the analogy of our well established system of heritage protection, where the principle of the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: This has been a very designation of heritage assets is made simply and interesting debate. I recall this as one of the central solely on the basis of the historic or architectural parts of our debate at Second Reading those many importance of those assets. We then establish their months ago, and understandably so. We have heard value, which becomes a subsequent factor under differing views expressed around the Chamber. It is consideration in the planning process. In the end, always tempting in that situation to say that it shows democracy is about the reconciliation of conflicting that the Government have got the balance right. I shall interests, but we need to establish securely what those certainly not resist that temptation, but I clearly accept interests are so that we can proceed to wider judgements that this is in a sense one of the most important about which interests the Government, on behalf of debates that we shall have on the Bill. It goes to the society, think should prevail. The approach of the heart of marine conservation zones, our marine noble Baroness, Lady Young, is right in principle and environment and what it is for, and our intent to clear in practice. Moreover, it is based on very well protect it. However, it also recognises that important tried and tested principles that are long established in socio-economic matters need to be taken into account planning law. when we consider the marine environment. In a sense, Clause 114 seeks to encapsulate that balance. The Lord Greenway: There is a danger that several noble noble Lord, Lord Taylor, thinks that we have not got it Lords are speaking about sites that need maximum right. He would like to see Part 7 moved up and protection. That is all well and good, and we all agree become a factor in the work that is taken forward to with that. However, there will be a range of different consider in the first place whether a particular part of sites. In those where less protection is needed, socio- the sea should be conceived as a marine conservation economic interests will need to be taken into account. zone. I shall say in a minute why we think it is rather better to do it in the way in which the Bill is constructed. Baroness Byford: I hesitate to enter this debate as it However, I want first to respond to the noble Lord, has clearly shown the difficulties that we face with this Lord Eden, who made an eloquent speech. He recognised Bill. I cannot support the amendment of the noble the potential for conflict. I think that we have always Baroness, Lady Young, to delete subsection (7) from understood that there are inherent tensions in the Clause 114. I have worked alongside her many years management of the marine environment. The Bill to 1029 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1030 an extent understands and seeks to reflect them, albeit and it is important to make that point. Although there within the overall intent to ensure that we do everything will be tensions we should not think that all the users we can to protect the marine environment. The noble of the sea and those interested in conservation will Lord said that the Government’s position has weakened. always be at war with each other. Surely we want to do I am not aware of that. This Bill has of course had everything we can to ensure that there is consensus contributions from very many government departments; and that conservation needs are fully considered. We it represents the Government’s view and their commitment also need to take into account the impact on people’s to protect the marine environment, but it also, as I said lives and livelihoods of designating marine conservation earlier, reflects the Government’s view that there are zones. I am going back to the wording, which I am important socio-economic activities that take place glad to say is consistent with the wording in the within the marine environment, and may do so in the Explanatory Notes to which the noble Lord, Lord future, which have to be taken into account. Eden, referred. I very much enjoyed the contributions of my noble Of course, there will be cases when the need for friend Lord Judd. I understand entirely what he meant conservation will carry the greatest weight, but we when he said that we need around the decision-making should take decisions in the knowledge of what the table the presence of people who can say, “Well, it’s all impacts are likely to be. That is why in implementing very well for today, but what about future generations?”. the Bill, Ministers will expect an impact assessment to Of course, the protection of our marine environment accompany each proposal for designation. There will is very important for the future but so, too, are socio- be cases when there will be other options, when the economic issues. They are important and at the very conservation constraints are fewer, and it will be sensible least ought to be taken into account when the decisions to take account of socio-economic considerations in are made. deciding where a site or group of sites should be I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Byford— designated. For example, we might be considering a large area Lord Judd: I am sure that my noble friend would of representative habitat of which a small proportion agree that we have to keep in mind that the force of his is geologically suitable for wind-farm development. In economic and social arguments for the future well-being that situation it might be appropriate to exclude that of society is for a decent society worth living in, of area from the proposed marine conservation zone which environmental elements are a central part. area, particularly if it makes no difference in conservation terms. This part of the Bill is constructed so that we start with the case for conservation. I must admit that Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My noble friend Lord I disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Miller; maybe Judd seemed to have an image of a network of marine we shall come on to debate this in future. motorways. He did not suggest that we should put our Titans there—he and I have debated Titan establishments 8.30 pm in previous debates. That is not how I see it. Of course, it is about our future. All noble Lords who have taken Clause 114 seems quite clear to me about the objective, part in the debate are concerned about the environment because it clearly sets out how, and understand the need for conservation. But we “The appropriate authority may make” cannot ignore the fact that other activities that are a designation order—because, also important to the future take place in the marine “it is desirable … for the purpose of conserving”— environment. and goes on to name those areas. I refer again to The noble Baroness, Lady Young, suggested that Clause 119, on the, having received proposals and then having to look at “Creation of network of conservation sites”, Part 7, Ministers would be swamped by business interests that would make it very difficult for them to make a which sets out the condition. I realise that we have not decision on designation. I do not underestimate the set out a general objective, if the Committee likes, in challenge of the decision-making that will fall on drafting but it is quite clear from those two clauses Ministers. That is surely why we believe that it is they what this is all about and what we seek to do. who must make those decisions. We would hardly be bringing this legislation before the House were Ministers Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I thank the not determined to ensure that we do the right thing by Minister for spelling out how he sees it. I agree that the the marine environment and that we designate zones clause says what it is doing, but it does not say why. I and networks. simply said that it would be stronger if it were quite I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, that I clear on the purpose of designating the MCZs. As the do not see conservation bodies as being some sort of debate on the socio-economic angles and so on has mild supplicants or underdogs in this process. I have shown, that purpose can tend to get lost in all of the seen the power of these organisations during the ever- arguments that must be balanced. That balance would lengthening debates on this Bill in your Lordships’ actually be helped by having a clear purpose at the House. Ministers will make proper balanced decisions, beginning, against which the arguments could be weighed. and the way in which the Bill is set out allows them to do that. Baroness Hamwee: Perhaps I may follow my noble Clearly, we want to provide more protection for friend. I have listened with interest to this debate, some areas of our sea. We want to build consensus as having been able to come back to this Bill after something far as possible among those with an interest in the sea, of a gap. Clause 114 starts, as the Minister says, with a 1031 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1032

[BARONESS HAMWEE] Baroness Young of Old Scone: I shall make one last reference to the desirability of conserving; that is what attempt. The process of designation happens at a is in the authority’s mind. It has to think about it in single point in time. It will happen once and then the order to take the decision on taking further steps. site will be designated for many years, one assumes. At However, at that point we depart from the list in that point, the Minister will be expected to take into Clause 114(1). account socio-economic issues as they currently exist, whatever the propositions are to use the site for extraction, fishing, power generation, or whatever. The designation Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I am grateful to both will last for however long. I do not know how old the noble Baronesses for those contributions, but I am SSSIs are, but they may be 30 or 40 years old, and quite clear on the designation of MCZs and I think I there are economic propositions coming up that we just read it differently from them. It is quite clear to could not have had any inkling of at the time of me what this is all about, and from reading the Bill, designation. “it is … for the purpose of conserving … marine flora or fauna … marine habitats or types of marine habitat … features of geological If you take the socio-economic conditions into or geomorphological interest”, account at designation time, you will be forced to try et cetera. No doubt we can debate that; I think a later to project forward and anticipate the economic needs amendment goes into it in more detail. My point is that are unthought-of at the time of designation. That that a clear process is described here, about the grounds is why it is quite dangerous to take socio-economic under which an appropriate authority may make an conditions into account at the point of designation. order. We think it better that that authority goes Yes, it can be done at the point of deciding what kind through the proper process of considering that and of management is going to be permitted and, yes, it then, in coming to a view on whether it is desirable to can be done whenever a planning application comes designate an area as a marine conservation zone, it up. It is perfectly possible for the Minister to make may have regard to any economic or social consequence such balanced decisions in that regard—but the point for so doing. of designation is absolutely the wrong time for socio- In other words, it is much better that the rigorous economic conditions to be taken into account. That is process is gone through in order to come to a view on why to some extent either my amendment or something designating a particular MCZ; at that point, “the close to it needs to be brought in, along with amendments appropriate authority” must, at least, “have regard to” later in the Bill that make it clear that MCZs are not the socio-economic impact. It is probably better to do no-go zones. it that way, in a sense, than to say right up front that Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I fully understand what that impact needs to be considered alongside conservation the noble Baroness means about MCZs not being issues. I realise that there is room for argument here, no-go zones. I agree with her on that, but I do not but that is why we have constructed the Bill as we have. agree with her on her general point—that because you This has been an interesting debate, but very few of cannot at any one point project years ahead, or at least the Committee have spoken to the detail of the it is very difficult to do so, this should not be a amendments in the group. Unless I am pressed, I consideration. One should not see designation as a intend to conclude my remarks at this stage. However, once-and-for-all decision, as it can be amended under if it would be helpful, I should be happy to write to Clause 118. So there is some flexibility there. noble Lords with detailed responses on those amendments At the end of the day, I suspect that the House will unless noble Lords wished me to go through them. not agree on this issue. At some stage, I am sure that it will be tested. I wanted to conclude by assuring noble Lord Tyler: I was going to suggest that the Minister Lords that including subsection (7) is not an attempt might like to respond to the particular point about the to undermine the essential protection of the marine Sandford principle, under Amendment A140. There is environment. It is not an underhand way in which to a general view that as that has been a constant thread ensure that commercial operators will get the upper during previous discussions in Committee, we should hand at the expense of conservation. We would not be seek to find some way in which to incorporate it in the bringing this Bill before your Lordships if we did not Bill. Perhaps the Minister would like to address that believe in the importance of protecting the marine amendment. environment. But we cannot ignore the socio-economic impact that these matters inevitably bring to the fore, nor the economic importance of the sea. We attempt Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: While I am very grateful here to get a decent balance. I am not sure we are to the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, on that, I must pray in going to agree on this matter, but I wanted to assure aid the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, on that point, noble Lords of the Government’s good intent. because I thought that he responded to it very well. The problem of adopting the principle in Amendments Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I am very grateful for the A140 and A140A is that, as I understand it—and I am Minister’s response to what has been a really good happy to look at this further between Committee and debate and one in which the argument has been genuine. Report—it implies that conservation objectives should I hope the good intent of all participants in the debate always outweigh socio-economic considerations. From can be taken as granted. I suspect that some of the all that I have said, I do not believe that I can go down problems come from the fact that there is considerable that route. There must be some discretion to be able to variation—and we are a little uncertain about how it is take account of socio-economic considerations. There going to work—of the degree of protection that might may be some cases in which the socio-economic— exist, both between different zones and within zones. 1033 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1034

The construction of a marine conservation zone and I therefore move Amendment 130, which would how it actually functions is not something which the add “seascape” to Clause 114 as a separate ground for Bill can possibly describe. So we are almost dependent designation. By “seascape”, I mean an area of sea, on debate to try to find our way towards it. The noble coastline and land, the character of which results from Lord, Lord Greenway, mentioned this and the Minister the actions and interactions of land with sea by natural has explained that marine conservation zones may not or human factors. This definition is based on the be absolutist. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, reminded definition of “landscape” set out in the European me that it was my use of the word “pristine” which was Landscape Convention, to which the United Kingdom meant to describe the most highly protected marine is a signatory. It is intended to reflect the fact that the conservation zone, or an area within a marine conservation convention embraces the seas as well as land. Adoption zone. I hope I am right in seeing marine conservation of our amendment would contribute to the fulfilment zones in this way because it is going to be the most of the Government’s obligations under the convention, efficient way of setting them up. which is in itself an important point. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, mentioned his concerns The amendment would ensure that, by broadening about the economic and social consequences, but none the purposes for which marine conservation zones are the less accepted that they were an important part of designated, our nationally important seascapes can be this issue. The whole House can accept that they will formally recognised. In so doing, we would ensure that not go away. My noble friend Lady Byford said that the full breadth of the marine environment is protected she understood the need for balance on this issue. My within a truly sustainable framework contained in the own position is that I am not here as an advocate for marine plans in the Bill. The Bill relates to one, albeit the socio-economic consequences. I am here in order important, dimension of the marine environment, about to try and make sure that we articulate the case for which we have just now heard a considerable amount: balance, which I think is the Minister’s position. nature conservation. Governance requires that advocacy of interest should be in the public interest and not in a cause. I am just as However, the important point is that seascapes are much against marine conservation zones being designated not defined simply by the view. They embrace not only to a socio-economic agenda as I would be to them the natural world as expressed in terms of biodiversity being solely designated on the conservation agenda. I and physical features, but also the human world in am seeking to find a way whereby marine conservation terms of historic and cultural heritage, opportunities zones can be considered durable and sustainable so for recreation and enjoyment, scenic resources—another that they are worthy of the investment made in them way of saying “views”—and connections and associations by those who believe in marine conservation. Socio- between them. Amendment 131, spoken to on a previous economic activities do exist in the sea and how they Committee day by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, also can be part of marine conservation is, surely, what the sought to do this, but perhaps in a slightly wider way. whole of this Bill is about. In support of the Government’s obligations under the I am very grateful for the support that my amendment European Landscape Convention, English Heritage has had in parts. I note the criticism and I believe it has been undertaking a programme of historic seascape has shown how seriously the House is taking the Bill characterisation, the results of which should help the and this particular element of the Bill which lies at the Government in reaching their conclusions. heart of its purpose. In the nature of these things, I The issue for coastal protected landscapes is that beg leave to withdraw the amendment. there is no means of recognising seascapes in statute. The current system of planning and management of Amendment 127 withdrawn. coastal protected landscapes does not embrace the marine environment. There is an artificial divide between Amendments A128 and A129 not moved. land and sea, with no recognition of the continuum between them that is so important for our coastal 8.45 pm protected landscapes. The statutory management plans and development plans for these areas stop at the Amendment A130 mean low-water mark, rendering them useless for planning and managing the special qualities derived from the Moved by Baroness Hooper marine environment. This is why we want to try to do A130: Clause 114, page 68, line 25, at end insert— something about it. “( ) seascape” The Bill provides an opportunity to address the issue, but it does not provide a mechanism for designating Baroness Hooper: In general, the approach and aim seascapes, notwithstanding the indication in the marine of the amendment that I and Members of the Committee Bill consultation of 2006 that a mechanism was under of all sides have tabled is to conserve and enhance the consideration that could protect, inter alia, important marine environment by raising awareness of the seascapes and views. This possibility was not followed importance of heritage, historic and archaeological through in the White Paper of 2007; however, it was considerations. Both Ministers who have answered indicated that important seascapes and views from two previous debates on these issues gave some comfort land would be considered in the marine planning and useful explanation in support of the principle. For process, and that the United Kingdom’s marine policy that, of course, we are duly grateful. So far, however, statement could include objectives describing the they have not been prepared to agree that this should importance of seascapes and views and how we wish be made clear in the Bill. to treat them. More detailed plans would allow us to 1035 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1036

[BARONESS HOOPER] to the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, who gave us an extremely consider seascapes and views in the context of the useful introduction to this issue when he spoke to priorities for specific areas. While in some ways it will what was in a different incarnation Amendment 106CA be important for the conservation of seascapes and all that time ago; it was actually only last week. I was views from land to be addressed in the marine plan not cited on his amendment at that point, which I process, the absence of any mechanism for defining anticipated being grouped with this one at a later our nationally important seascapes, including the seaward stage. extent of our coastal-protected landscapes, is a The noble Baroness, Lady Hooper—I regard her as fundamental weakness of the marine planning system a friend—has just given noble Lords a list of organisations proposed in the Bill that could so easily be put right if that support her amendment. That is a very formidable our amendment were accepted. body of expert opinion, which speaks on behalf of a I suspect that the Government will deploy the argument very formidable body of public opinion. I hope that that the marine planning statement and the marine the Minister will take this issue with a corresponding plans will be the way that seascapes can be dealt with. seriousness. I accept that this is one way of doing so and will welcome any statements from the Minister which make The amendment adds “seascape” to an already this clear. There remains the concern that there is no bruised and battered Clause 114. It is not easy to mechanism to designate nationally important seascapes arrive at a satisfactory definition of “seascape”. It is without amending the Bill. Can the Minister explain not straightforward, but it is not impossible. The why, during the consultation on the Bill in 2006, Defra noble Baroness gave a very useful definition, but she seemed to think that seascapes could be dealt with by will not mind my saying that it is neither elegant nor marine conservation zones—then called marine protected precise. Noble Lords should not worry too much. It areas—and on what basis this was dropped? Also, derives from the European Landscape Convention, how will the national importance of particular seascapes and if it sounds like what it is—a translation of be expressed in the marine policy statement or in bureaucratic Eurospeak—I hope that noble Lords will marine plans without any form of designation process? not allow that to put them off, because it deals with an I am troubled by the Government’s attitude to our extremely important reality. As the noble Baroness amendments on these issues. There seems to be an suggested, to ensure that there is definition and rigour assumption that it is not necessary to take advantage in our terminology and that we pin down this important of this Bill to protect not only natural flora and fauna reality, English Heritage has for some years been but also our marine heritage. Goodness knows it has engaged in a programme called England’s Historic taken long enough to reach these heritage amendments Seascapes, extending the methodology of historic because of the extent of debate on other aspects of the landscape characterisation into the marine zone. The Bill, suggesting it is not regarded as perfect as it stands programme has addressed the challenges involved in in many respects. The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, compiling a GIS database to present an area-based said earlier that it will be a long time before we have view of the historic character of England’s coastal and another opportunity of a marine Bill and that is why marine zones. we want to take full advantage of this one to do as The need for an informed understanding of the much as possible to get our marine heritage protected. interacting cultural and natural factors bearing on any As the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne given area is as vital for the future management of Domer reminded us, conservation issues are not marine zones as it is on land. I make the point, which mentioned in the long title and heritage issues are in the Minister must regard as valuable, that this work the same boat. that English Heritage has been doing for some years There is considerable concern in your Lordships’ has been funded by Defra through the Aggregates House on this issue and many organisations worry Levy Sustainability Fund. Pilot studies were made and about the outcome of our deliberations. I will mention have been evaluated, and the upshot is that English some because it is a distinguished group—the Campaign Heritage now has established a robust method for for National Parks, the Campaign to Protect Rural historic seascape characterisation. I understand that, England, the Campaign for the Protection of Rural thanks to the prospect of further ALSF funding which Wales, the English National Park Authorities Association, has been committed, by 2011 some 75 per cent of Europarc Atlantic Isles, the National Association for England’s seas and adjacent waters will have been Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, the National studied using this method. As the noble Baroness said, Trust, the Welsh Association of National Parks Authorities it makes no sense whatsoever to persist with an artificial and English Heritage. divide between land and sea in our policy for planning The noble Lord, Lord Chorley, had hoped to be management and development control. here to support the amendment, and he asked me to Consider how many areas of outstanding natural say that it has his full support but, unfortunately, he beauty, how many national parks and, of course, how had to leave. There are many others who wish to speak many heritage coasts adjoin the sea and draw much of in support of the amendment, so I should allow them their special character from that relationship. One to have their say. I beg to move. example is the Isles of Scilly, which the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, mentioned in a previous speech. I would Lord Howarth of Newport: I am extremely glad to add the north Norfolk coast, the Gower peninsula, the follow the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, who has so Pembrokeshire Coast National Park—areas which I persuasively and powerfully moved the amendment, personally know and love. The relationship between to which I have added my name. I owe a quick apology the sea and the land is crucial in all the aspects the 1037 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1038 noble Baroness mentioned. Yet, as she said, at present War was to introduce the national parks and put them our statutory management and development plans into legislation. Central to that was a concern with stop at the mean low-water mark. landscape. The Bill is immensely important. It is a very In the 2007 report on the inquiry into the proposed good Bill, which I have warmly welcomed—any South Downs national park, the inspector recommended deliberations that we have had have simply been about that consideration be given to statutory provisions how to improve it even further. It is an historic Bill. It that would allow marine areas beyond the mean low-water would be very sad, when we are passing such an mark to be part of a national park. It is curious that excellent Bill that has so much to be said for it, if we the Bill omits to deal with this issue. As the noble missed this opportunity of recognising seascapes. Baroness reminded us, in the marine Bill consultation We talk a great deal these days about what it is to be in 2006 the Government indicated that a mechanism British and about Britishness. The great thing about was under consideration that could protect important Britain is that it is a group of islands. Characteristic of seascapes and views. The White Paper in 2007 was a that group of islands—its reality—is the interplay little more blurred but not discouraging. So what has between land and sea. We have a tremendous opportunity happened? Why has this been left out of the Bill? This to get that reality—that creative, imaginative reality; amendment is intended at the very least to jog the that wonderful dimension, which is unique in some Government’s memory.In so doing I remind the Minister ways to the United Kingdom—into the heart of the that the power already exists in Scotland to create Bill. I hope that my noble friends will take seriously coastal and marine national parks. We need equally the arguments that have been put forward so well and for England statutory power to designate our finest I look forward to their response. and most important seascapes, including the marine dimension of nationally protected landscapes on the Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I support the noble Baroness, coast. Lady Hooper, who introduced this important amendment. I happen to have Pembrokeshire blood in my veins. 9pm The creation of the Pembrokeshire Coast National Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I was pleased Park, to which the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, referred, to put my name to this amendment. I support what was a great achievement. Its coastal path is about the two previous speakers have said. The noble Baroness, 180 miles long and is breathtaking in many respects. Lady Hooper, spoke of the interaction between sea Some of my family originate from the small hamlet and land. When we are legislating we should bear in Amroth, from which you can see Tenby and the mind that that legislation should be meaningful to the tremendous seascape at the start of the Pembrokeshire general population. Looking at this clause and what it coast path. From there, around Stackpole Rocks, the designates, it refers to geological and geomorphological whole of the Pembrokeshire coast is a magnificent features, which are important, but seascapes, as described thing. Even Milford Haven, despite its oil terminal by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord and so on, retains a bit of a wild factor. Somehow or Howarth, are what make it real to people. It is no other that development has lived with the national coincidence that the BBC series Coast, which is now a park—sometimes precariously, particularly when gas long-running series on another channel as well, is so is mentioned. That has been a way of achieving recognition incredibly popular. It is no coincidence that, when the of a seascape, and it is a wonderful heritage for future National Trust has had an appeal to buy bits of coast, generations. hundreds of thousands of people have given some money. The area between land and sea is very special Lord Greenway: I have enormous sympathy with to them. this amendment, although it contains a number of It is a gap in the Bill that it can refer to geology and difficulties. We can all immediately think of half a geomorphology but not bring things together to refer dozen wonderful seascapes that should be preserved. to seascape. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, mentioned Anyone who lives near the sea would feel that their the AONBs, the National Parks and so on. Many of view of the sea is of a seascape that should be preserved. the AONBs got their designation primarily because of The Government and other noble Lords will be aware the seascape; primarily because of that interaction that the proposed offshore wind farm site off the which is so exciting. I am lucky enough to live in one in Jurassic Coast in Dorset has been moved nearer Poole. North Devon and enjoy it every weekend. It never fails I am not certain whether that will please the rich to excite, even if you walk only a very short part of the residents of Sandbanks. From another point of view, coast path. The Government are so right in having the it could be argued that the seascape from the Isle of ambition to bring the coast path to the whole country, Wight looking down over the Needles is particularly as it is aiming to do with the Bill. What a shame it wonderful. How will that stand if a wind farm appears would be if it did that without recognising the important in the distance? part that seascapes play. Lord Tyler: As the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, Lord Judd: I warmly congratulate the noble Baroness, and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said, we had a Lady Hooper, on introducing the amendment. I urge preliminary skirmish on some of these issues in a my noble friends to take it seriously in their response. I previous group, in which my Amendment A131 am sure they will. I should declare an interest as appeared—perhaps it was slightly peculiarly allocated. vice-president of the Council of National Parks. I We did not use the word “seascape” because we were remind my noble friends that one of the great achievements having some difficulty with it but very much the same of the Labour Government after the Second World sort of issues were raised. 1039 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1040

[LORD TYLER] the European Landscape Convention, which the I reinforce the point made by my noble friend Lady Government have signed. It will not do for the Miller. Many issues in this Bill will be of concern to a Government now to say, “It is a bit vague, and not a comparatively small minority. The major issues of perfect definition”. It is a sufficient working definition, conservation, fishing and so on are important but to a and the Government have by implication committed comparatively small minority. As the noble Lord, Lord themselves to its endorsement. Judd, said, we are now talking about issues that are of considerable importance to a huge number of our Lord Davies of Oldham: It is a working definition, population. Some people think of the heritage of but that does not mean that it fits into the Bill in the Britain in terms of us as a maritime nation—the way that the noble Lord has indicated. The concept interrelation between the land and the sea and the was a good deal vaguer than that, and the definition communities around our coastline; they are incredibly lacked elegance. I hear what my noble friend says important to a huge number of people. It would be when he insists that he supports the principle: I do not very sad if we thought of that as a less important issue for one moment suggest otherwise. I was just sharing than the scientific preservation of species in the marine with him a slight hesitation about the inelegance of environment. It is important to our nation that we the language. That is because it was designed for recognise the significance of what the noble Baroness another role, not for the purposes of definition in the has inserted in this amendment—the seascape. It is Bill. The landscape quality objectives—as expressed in not an easy word to define, but we all know what we the language of Europe—were to be implemented are talking about. I strongly support the amendment. through the Council of Europe.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I fully support my noble 9.15 pm friend’s amendment and hope that the Minister will This Bill is more precise than the rather vague give serious consideration to it, and indeed welcome it. exhortations contained in that definition. Yet when all There have been few debates that have matched the noble Lords, who have thought seriously and with poetry of the contributions of various Members. Even great passion about this matter, come to the definition the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, waxed poetic about which will fit within the Bill—I listened carefully to the view of Poole from the Isle of Wight, although he every speech—I heard no answer. Inevitably in its was less enthusiastic about the amendment. prescriptions, the Bill has aspects of clear definition. The amendment would add greatly to the appeal How could it be otherwise when the Bill is premised and prestige of the Bill. My noble friend rightly raises on the assumption of serious scientific evidence? That a feature of the marine environment that gives enormous is the basis of this conservation measure. Most of the pleasure to a large number of people, as well as time, noble Lords, speaking with great passion, are encompassing unique and valuable natural landscapes equally assertive about the precision and scientific and features. basis of the conservation measure which this represents. We have already discussed the difficulty of defining Therefore, they should not be surprised if, from the precisely where the UK marine area starts and the Dispatch Box, I am somewhat reluctant to take on land stops. This is also a problem for conservation board an amendment which introduces one concept bodies based on land. Many features in need of protection called “seascapes”, when it is not entirely clear how we straddle both land and sea, where current legislation would define that in legislation and we certainly do does not extend. As the Minister has reminded us not have an amendment which does that. We could throughout our work in Committee, the Bill presents a enjoin on the Government the concept, “Let them find rare opportunity to provide protection for our marine a definition”. Of course, in general terms, we accept seascapes that will complement the existing territorial the principle put forward with regard to the Council of provisions. I hope that the Minister will listen carefully Europe, but we too have difficulties with this. to my noble friend’s points, and reassure us that these I present the other problem. I listened very closely features will be included in the Bill. to what my noble friend Lord Judd said—it always pays to listen carefully to my noble friend. I heard Lord Davies of Oldham: I am grateful to all noble what he said about the national parks. I think the Lords who have spoken to the amendment, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, reinforced the point, as noble Baroness for moving it. I have noted the passion did the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper. When has it with which arguments have been advanced, and do been suggested that the national parks, created as my not for one moment underestimate the importance of noble friend said by a most reforming and radical the issue. I note in passing that several noble Lords Government after the Second World War, have been confessed to having problems with the definition of under threat because they do not have a definition of “seascape”. The proposal is to introduce the term into “seascape” from their perspective? It does not exist in the Bill, but it is difficult to define and the noble legislation and I am not sure that noble Lords have Baroness’s gallant attempt did not meet with the complete proven the case for it to exist in this legislation. A great approval of one of her keenest supporters on these deal of thought is needed before the Government can issues, my noble friend Lord Howarth. I could almost be persuaded on this point. feel him recoiling from the elegance of the language. National parks have not been threatened. The noble Lord, Lord Livsey, took me on a little tour round the Lord Howarth of Newport: I assure my noble friend Pembrokeshire Coast National Park. I walk round the that I fully support the definition put forward by coastal pathway of Cornwall; I have been to Snowdonia; the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper. It is a serious point: I have been to areas where the national parks are the language was chosen because it draws precisely on contiguous with other land; I have even been to an 1041 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1042 area which I do not think is a national park, but my Lord Davies of Oldham: The noble Lord will recognise noble friend Lord Howarth is quite keen on it; namely, that I am arguing that national parks are bodies with the Norfolk and East Anglian coastline. Has anyone such a proud record of defending our heritage, the suggested that any of those areas is under threat—that beauties of our landscape, the views to sea and—it it cannot protect its interests or cannot protect its goes without saying as far as the national parks are areas of outstanding natural beauty because it does concerned—the views from the sea to land that it not have a definition of “seascape”? would be absurd for it to be contended that they need this defence in the Bill, which is primarily directed Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: Perhaps I towards other objectives in conservation, or that their may give the Minister an example. We are talking interests would not be taken into account. It is obvious about seascapes as a reason to designate an MCZ. Let that we cannot develop the policy without having due us suppose that seascape is under threat because there regard to the land authorities that are contiguous with is a lot of dredging of aggregates and the sand on the the sea. I am merely saying that in areas of outstanding beach starts to shift. The Minister talks of East Anglia natural beauty and in the parks, it is not conceivable where he knows the speed with which the sand can that a proposal could come forward for a conservation shift at places such as Woodhenge and along the whole zone that did not take into account the interests of the East Anglian coast. That seascape can be altered by national park. natural events, but also by manmade activity. The My noble friend was right, as he usually is on these manmade activity in that case is very likely to alter the matters, when he said that these issues were mentioned seascape. That is one example. I could give the Minister in earlier marine Bill documents, especially the marine about 50 more but I shall not detain the Committee. planning and marine nature conservation sectors when We are talking about designating the MCZ in order to we dealt with the White Paper a few years ago. They protect the seascape, which would do a lot more than may not be mentioned in the Marine and Coastal protecting a geological feature, for example, which is Access Bill, but the Bill derives from the White Paper, less under threat, although the Government have correctly and they will be part of the Marine Management seen fit to put that in the Bill. Organisation when it starts to develop its marine plans. I want to give the Committee every assurance Lord Davies of Oldham: I hear what the noble that it is not conceivable that the Marine Management Baroness says. She is obliged to say that the shifting of Organisation could do its job properly without them. the sand might in any case be natural and nothing to do with manmade constructs, but she is also forced to recognise that if there is a question of manmade Lord Tyler: I am following the Minister as best I constructs with regard to the shifting of the sand, they can, but he seems to be advancing two quite different would be for other objectives, even for preserving the arguments. First, he says that it is impossible to define land on which people would need to stand to enjoy the the seascape, and he has poured a lot of cold water on seascape. In those terms, if the noble Baroness will the definitions that some of us have attempted; but forgive me, we come back to the issues that the noble now, if I understand what he has been saying in the Earl, Lord Selborne, introduced in the previous past few minutes, he is giving the Committee an assurance amendment; namely, the wide considerations that we that the MMO and the authorities will, in the designation have to take into account with regard to the Bill. It process, take full account of the particular considerations may be necessary to include such socio-economic factors that we have all been arguing are important. He cannot and aspects in the Bill. They were ably defended by my have it both ways. Now I have given him an opportunity noble friend during the debate on the previous to read all the interesting notes that have been coming amendment. I merely want to indicate that due regard from the Box, I hope that he will be able to give us a has to be given to the fact that there are considerations more substantial answer. beyond the aesthetic concept of a seascape. I would be the last person to suggest that there are not very Lord Davies of Oldham: My answer has been important aesthetic qualities to the views that we all substantial, logical and coherent with regard to a experience and enjoy, but that is a little different from number of issues that have been raised in this debate. talking the language of conservation, which the Bill is First, the defences for areas of outstanding natural about. beauty and the position of the national parks are not I want to emphasise that the national parks and inadequate. Secondly, it is extremely difficult to specify other conservation organisations on land are strong seascapes in legislation. The noble Lord, I notice, has enough bodies to make sure that the perspectives that not taken on that particular challenge. I will give him people enjoy are defended. The noble Lord, Lord time. After all, there will be other stages to the Bill: Tyler, emphasised that a large number of people enjoy that is, if we ever get to Report. One sometimes these perspectives and views and value the national wonders in which month in 2009 we will get to Report, parks. Anyone or any authority concerned with the but we will eventually get there, so we will have another Bill has to have regard to the interests of the national chance to rethink this matter. parks in those terms. We would not dream of producing I emphasise that the Bill is primarily a conservation a Bill that set the position of national parks at anything measure that is based on very clear aspects of scientific except important. evidence. The problem with the seascape—in no way, shape or form is the aesthetic any less important than Lord Livsey of Talgarth: Does the Minister accept the scientific—is simply that its definition belongs in a that the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park was different Bill. That is not the objective or purpose of designated because of its seascape? this Bill. 1043 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1044

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] fine, complete document on coastal zone management, I emphasise that the Government are concerned which has plenty about the concept of seascape in it. I about the protection of areas of marine beauty, the am sure that it is well up to helping, if that is necessary messages about which have come through loud and and if the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, would welcome clear this evening. We had an earlier debate on these it, to define this further. I am sure that it has been issues, which the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, presented giving considerable thought to this matter. with her usual clarity and force. The debate was substantial. The concepts will be included in the high-level Lord Davies of Oldham: I am grateful to the noble marine objectives that underpin the development of Baroness, but I am even more grateful to my noble the marine policy statement. The statement has to set friend for his admonishment. I will merely note that in out all the policies on the marine environment, and the his factual, accurate and dispassionate description, he plans will address the interests and concerns of all suggested that I should introduce an element of spirituality those who are connected with the sea. However, that is into this Bill, which presses me a little far. I want to different from putting alongside the precise, scientifically emphasise that there is no way in which the development based concepts of the Bill a concept that is much more of the work of the Marine Management Organisation difficult to define and which is not scientific but aesthetic. can occur without it taking into account exactly the Within that framework, I do not have the slightest concerns that have been expressed in this debate. Nor quarrel with the objectives of the amendments. Far would the Government want it any other way. We from it; I enthusiastically endorse them. I have no share with all Members of the Committee exactly the reservations about them whatever, and I speak on propositions so accurately defined by my noble friend, behalf of the Government. I am saying merely that which I was humbly seeking not to repudiate but to they do not fit into the clause because the clause is demonstrate Government support for. I am seeking to based on an objective that is different from the objective identify that this amendment fits ill with this clause that noble Lords are introducing at the moment. and the basis of the premise of the scientific approach I realise that this is difficult, because I am saying no which we need to conserve. Therefore, as ever with to those who are arguing most benignly for something amendments, the Government can be expected to that everyone in the Committee values and wishes to accept amendments only when the case has been made, see protected and enhanced. However, I am also defending and the case has not been made. the necessary integrity of this legislation, and noble Lords will have to make a great deal more progress on seascapes before the Government think that the case Lord Howarth of Newport: What is the Government’s has been made for adding this concept to the clause. view of the status of the commitment to the European Landscape Convention, which embraces seascapes? Does that constitute a material planning factor? Is it 9.30 pm justiceable? In what sense does it matter and count? Lord Judd: I hope my noble friend will accept that How does that separate commitment, which the Minister some of us earnestly hope that the noble Baroness will insists should not be part of this legislation, sit alongside bring this proposition back on Report. My noble it and in relation to it? friend is a very accomplished parliamentarian. He is a parliamentary craftsman who loves the art of assembling Lord Davies of Oldham: I have to say to my noble the arguments to demolish a proposition. He will friend that it sits alongside rather than being integral. forgive me as an old friend for saying that sometimes It is not expected that a measure concerned with he gets a little carried away by it. Sometimes his best aspects of marine conservation and the evidential base friends, of whom I want to regard myself as one, want on which we have to do that work, as advocated by my to say to him, “Come off it”. My noble friend knows noble friend, will fit within that framework. However, perfectly well what a seascape is. He knows that in our I will not convince noble Lords from this Dispatch literature, poetry and history, seascape has been a Box tonight. I can read the signs. I am only too well central and living concept. He goes on and on about aware, as my noble friend Lord Judd indicated, that I the precise scientific measurements of other elements have not taken him very far. He is not alone; most of conservation. Is he really saying that as a nation we Members of the Committee are sceptical about the have given up on spirituality, imagination and vision? Government’s arguments. Therefore I will write to Why can we not encompass these dimensions of our noble Lords about our commitment, as far as concerns life in this Bill? They are of so much importance to so seascapes, in relation to Europe. Despite the awkwardness many people. of the definition, I will write on that point and make I hope that the noble Baroness will come back with sure that noble Lords are well informed about that this proposition on Report and that, in the mean time, dimension before we reach Report stage. On that my noble friend will use his, in some ways, unequalled basis, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel that she parliamentary skills in getting to work with the draftsmen can safely withdraw her amendment and keep her and his officials to say that this is something so wonderful ammunition for another day. in our heritage that we have to find a way of recognising it and putting it in the Bill. Baroness Hooper: I am grateful to noble Lords for their warm support of this amendment. Short as it Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: It should be was, one tiny word has engendered a great deal of quite easy for Defra as the sponsoring department to comment. I am sorry about the difficulties over the come up with something. After all, it has produced a definition. I made a stab at it and was not trying to 1045 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1046 suggest that it was perfect. The fact that no definition the edge of that species’ natural range. What scale is a of “seascape” exists does not mean that someone location considered to have? If there are numerous should not invent one. There have been many occasions examples of a certain type of marine fauna occurring when definitions have not existed and parliamentary all around the UK, but it is relatively rare in the rest of draftsmen have succeeded in producing ones with the world, will we seek to conserve its numbers yet which I was not at all happy. further in our waters? The Minister said that he accepted the principle of Vulnerability can indeed be completely separate the amendment and from that I suppose I must draw a from numbers. There may be a large presence of a crumb of comfort. However, the suggestion that the species which is not particularly rare, but it is particularly amendment does not fit into this clause was certainly vulnerable to a type of disturbance; for example, grasping at a straw when the noble Lord was running starfish or worms, which are particularly affected by out of other arguments. When we come to the coastal large-scale excavation of the seabed. access provisions, it will become clear that the benefit Why are marine habitats and geological features of seascapes is what the coastal access provisions are excluded from being classified as rare? A particular about. type of habitat that supports an unusual diversity of While I am on that subject, it was suggested at species that might not be individually threatened is Second Reading that this was two Bills in one—the surely as worthy of protection as a depleted species. coastal access provisions had been added to what had I am sure that these questions will be answered with been a separate consideration of the marine environment. common sense, but ambiguity of this kind and the I suggested that maybe it should become three Bills in difficulty of finding precise definitions make it that one and that if we were successful in adding the much more important that decisions are based on amendments relating to our historic heritage and its sound science criteria. We have had a similar debate protection, that would be the result. already on the decisions of the MMO. The same The noble Lord, Lord Judd, said that this is an concerns are just as applicable, if not more so, here. immensely important Bill. It is and therefore it is also In making decisions about designation, the appropriate important that we cover as much ground as possible authorities are likely to find themselves besieged with and ensure that our marine heritage is protected. I will representations from more or less impartial stakeholders, read Hansard, await the letter promised by the Minister more or less informed public pressure groups and and certainly return to the subject to please the noble more or less benign political pressures. It is critical for Lord, Lord Judd. In the meantime, I beg leave to the success of the ecological network that those do not withdraw the amendment. lead to unscientific, if more popular, decisions. I beg Amendment A130 withdrawn. to move.

Amendments A131 to A134 not moved. Baroness Byford: I shall not detain the Committee except to express support for my noble friend’s Amendment A135 amendments, particularly his Amendment A137, which Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach would include sound science among the criteria. A135: Clause 114, page 68, line 32, leave out subsection (4) and insert— Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: I am grateful to the “(4) The reference in subsection (1) includes, in particular, a noble Lord, Lord Taylor, for raising two very important reference to conserving any species, marine habitats or types of points. First, he was very clear that we need to be sure habitat or features of geological or geomorphological importance that we understand what is meant in this part of the that are rare or threatened because of— Bill and I very much agree with him. I think noble (a) the limited number of individuals of that species, or Lords are sometimes disappointed by the Government’s limited occurrence of those habitats or features of response to amendments when we say that we understand geological or geomorphological importance; why the amendments are proposed but that we worry (b) the limited number of locations in which that species or that they will leave the Bill less clear. I also echo the those habitats or features of geological or geomorphological importance are present; noble Lord’s point about the need for decisions to be very firmly based on the science that becomes available. (c) the vulnerability of that species or those habitats or features of geological or geomorphological importance He then asked a number of interesting questions about to specific human activities.” what we meant by “limited number”. On Amendment A135, we believe that by providing Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My amendments in this site-based protection for fauna or flora through group probe the drafting of subsection (4) a little designation of marine conservation zones, we shall further and emphasise the important role that credible protect their habitats when necessary. We think that science must play in the designation of the MCZs. The the diversity of habitat is dealt with by subsection (5). alternative version of subsection (4) that I have proposed On features of geological and geomorphological in Amendment A135 highlights the ambiguity of defining importance, our intention is to protect sites which are vulnerability by counting the number of individuals in of interest. This mirrors the approach on land, where a species or locations where they flourish. Does the features of interest can be notified as sites of special Minister intend these numbers to refer to a limited scientific interest. The wording is deliberate. Whether number in the UK marine area or in the world as a something is of interest can be easily determined, but whole? A species might have relatively few individuals whether it is important is probably a matter of opinion present in the UK marine area merely because it is on and may well be hotly debated. More than that, we do 1047 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1048

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] Amendment A135 withdrawn. not wish to lose features that are undoubtedly interesting but whose importance perhaps we do not yet appreciate. Amendments A135A to A140B not moved. We think it best to retain the breadth of the current draft. Clause 114 agreed. 9.45 pm In relation to limited numbers the noble Lord raised Clause 115: Further provision as to orders designating an interesting question. I take it that in general it MCZs relates to the UK. It is entirely a proper matter to be taken into account. It indicates that there has to be Amendment A141 some flexibility, but I would resist being pressed into Moved by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer finding a definition of what we mean by limited. We need to leave it to common sense. Amendment A135 A141: Clause 115, page 69, line 31, at end insert “, and would include a reference to vulnerability to human (c) must make provision for the marking of the designation activities. I hope that I can reassure noble Lords that on charts, GPS systems and, where necessary, on the surface of the sea.” the concept of a species being threatened already captures its vulnerability. In deciding on the objectives of a marine conservation Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: This amendment zone and restrictions placed on it, the appropriate adds to the list of things about which orders must be authority must take into account first and foremost made when designating marine conservation zones, sound scientific evidence. I know that the noble Lord, and suggests that there must be some, Lord Taylor, in proposing Amendment A137, is keen “provision for the marking of”, to ensure that by inserting the words “sound scientific marine conservation zones, criteria” alongside “economic or social consequences” “on charts, GPS systems and, where necessary, on the surface of they will be considerations that may be taken into the sea”. account. Undoubtedly the Government want to take That is important inshore, where some heavy use of account of the best available scientific evidence in marine conservation zones may be allowed and, more making designations. Scientific considerations will particularly, where the licensing of such zones has underpin the whole process of site selection and been highly restricted so that almost nothing is allowable. designation from start to finish. The regional projects If I take as a model the existing zone around Lundy—one that are currently being established to advise on site of the very few examples that we have—you are not selection will draw on scientific information from all even allowed to drop your anchor there. available sources, including data from industry and If there is to be a series of marine conservation sea users. The regional groups will also receive advice zones all around the coast, which shipping will have to and guidance from a national scientific panel of observe, which divers should observe and which both independent and recognised experts who will soon be commercial and recreational interests must have appointed. knowledge of then they will, at the least, have to know I hope that I can reassure the noble Lord that our where they are because they will be expected to abide firm intention is to make available the best possible by the zone rules. They have to be able to see what is use of scientific data. I do not see how the provisions where—for example, where they can drop anchor and in Clause 114 could be carried out unless the best where they may not even be allowed to go. They might scientific evidence that had been made available was have to observe other sorts of limitations; some boats, fully taken into account. We fully take account of the for example, still empty their dirty water into the sea. I concerns raised by the noble Lord today. should hope that would not be possible, particularly within the special conservation zones where the ecosystems Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I thank the Minister for are deemed to be vulnerable to such things. There are his response and for the way in which he has dealt with all sorts of reasons for having them clearly marked. these amendments. As he rightly says, they are a The Minister will know, as he kindly organised it, matter for resolution by common sense. However, that I met with his Bill team, who explained to me that there are interesting issues of principle on the whole there would be difficulty in marking these zones on the business of population protection when numbers come charts because the chart-producing companies—I presume in. Many things that are quite plentiful may still need that means the Hydrographic Office, but there may be to be preserved to maintain the ecology of a particular others—are not in public ownership. Having mulled it climate. I speak as a land-based individual with an over, that does not seem a good reason to me for not interest in horticulture and botany. The noble Lord marking them. I believe it absolutely essential for both knows my business interests. In analogies with land-based commercial and recreational interests that some form natural environments, plenteousness does not necessarily of marking takes place, at least on paper and GPS, mean that such populations are not valuable and not while in certain areas—particularly in high-use areas—it in need of protection. This is a much more complex may be necessary to put buoys, for example, on the matter than can possibly be legislated for. By seeking surface of the sea. to put science into the Bill I wanted to try to make sure It is commonly understood that where a buoy is off that decisions were as objective as possible. I sought to a headland, for example, it is saying, “Do not go inside emphasise the great complexity of arguments that this buoy; you have to stay to its seaward side”. That is have to be considered in terms of individual species. I common knowledge for all sea users, and it would be beg leave to withdraw the amendment. quite easy to develop a similar system for MCZs. 1049 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1050

What would be unforgivable would be to introduce Clause 121 already gives public authorities such as them very quietly or invisibly, so that nobody really the United Kingdom Hydrographic Office a duty to knew where they were. I beg to move. further the conservation objectives of sites in carrying out their functions. When there is a need to mark sites Earl Cathcart: The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, on charts, they will therefore be under a duty to take has advanced an excellent amendment here. I am very whatever steps are appropriate, provided that it is pleased to be speaking to it, as I did not think that I compatible with their functions. So we respond to the would be contributing to this Committee. amendment by saying that of course the concept Clause 113 enables the appropriate authority to behind it is important but we think that the Bill designate marine conservation zones. The discussions already provides adequately. around MCZs have raised many issues during this What primarily appears on navigational charts is, Committee. We have not always been in agreement of course, driven by safety criteria, as the noble Lord, about the best way to designate the zones, but across Lord Greenway, would have emphasised if he had the House the clear intention is to make sure the zones spoken at greater length. Chart compilers are, frequently, are drawn up in the best way to maximise their potential in possession of a large amount of information from to fulfil the requirements of this Bill. However, we which they choose those features they judge to be have not yet addressed how people who use the marine critical for safety. The art of producing a good chart is environment, for work or recreation, will know when to avoid cluttering it with information which is not they are entering or leaving MCZs. essential to the navigator’s task. I am sure the Committee I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness that it is recognises the significance of that point. We delight in of vital importance that these zones are marked in an the fact that Admiralty charts have a worldwide reputation, obvious manner which is easily accessible to those precisely because they are well judged with respect to who use the marine environment. The rules and regulations what is necessary and what is not. surrounding MCZs will mean very little if they are not adhered to because of general ignorance about the 10 pm precise location of the zones themselves. The Joint Therefore, the Bill does not need to contain specific Committee reported that it, too, was unclear about powers for the marking of sites, but they will be how the MCZs would be marked and identified. Without marked on Admiralty charts where it is necessary and this clarity, it will make successful enforcement very appropriate. As an example, the existing marine nature difficult. The boundaries will need to be clearly marked reservation around Lundy, which the noble Baroness, and the type of conservation objective for each zone Lady Miller, mentioned, is currently charted. A text clearly identifiable. What are the Government’s plans note refers mariners to Admiralty sailing directions in this regard? Does the Minister think that charts, where they can find out more information on Lundy. GPS systems and marking on the surface of the sea The noble Baroness questioned whether there were will be the most effective way of marking the zones, or other suppliers; there are indeed. GPS systems are does he have another cunning plan? If so, could he tell produced by a number of commercial suppliers using the Committee? data provided by the Hydrographic Office or unofficial providers. They should continue to have commercial Lord Greenway: I support this amendment—indeed, discretion to display whatever information they think I have raised the subject of marking the conservation is relevant to their customers, because the customers zones on a number of occasions, including only last will soon find out and the worthwhile quality of what Thursday. I also raised it in the joint scrutiny committee. has been provided will become general knowledge. There are problems associated with this, because of The point is that people are more likely to be interested the different degrees of conservation in the various in knowing where restrictions apply which directly zones. I certainly think that the highly protected zones affect them than in knowing the location and boundary should be marked not only on charts with notices to of the marine conservation zones. They are going to mariners and, possibly, by buoys—although then it be interested in those matters which affect the pursuit becomes a question of who is responsible for laying on the sea which they are following. Some say sites the buoys, whether it is Trinity House, a local authority may be designated which will require no restriction on or a harbour authority. There are problems, too, with mariners at all. It is therefore difficult to see that the innocent passage of shipping and yachts, even in mariners would be particularly interested in knowing some highly protected zones. It may be quite possible where those sites were, if there is nothing within the for a small ship or yacht to transit that zone, even if it site which affects the navigation they are involved in. is not allowed to anchor. Charts at the moment carry It is also important to remember that by-laws might certain areas where there is no anchoring—where there apply to only part of any marine conservation zone, or are submarine cables or naval exercise areas, for example. might extend beyond the boundaries of the zone where It is important that the whole idea of marking the it is necessary to protect features within the site. This zones is thought about very carefully, and I support subject is not easy. The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, the amendment. indicated that there are difficulties with regard to these concepts, and I am reflecting that point. Lord Davies of Oldham: I agree with the noble With regard to the physical marking of sites, I am Lord’s last point—that these issues will have to be informed that the laying and maintenance of buoys in considered very carefully. The issue is whether the the open sea is very far from straightforward. Therefore, amendment is necessary for that careful consideration Natural England has hardly, if ever, used its existing to be carried out. powers in relation to marine nature reserves and European 1051 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 1052

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] Cathcart, for their support for the amendment. I recognise marine sites. If an NCZ needs to be marked, we would that it is a tricky subject. Of course, it cuts both ways. expect the MMO to take the action—with the agreement It may be marking where the restrictions are but, at of Trinity House, which has overall responsibility in the same time, it may be marking where the zones are, these terms—but we would not need to specify a because they are areas where the public would go to particular power or duty in the Bill to achieve this. observe some of the natural history of which we have I am not disagreeing with the noble Baroness’s spoken, some of the really interesting things that they intent in exploring this point in relation to her amendment. can see. It is not just about marking restrictions, but She sought the reassurance that I hope that I have about marking interesting things. given from the Dispatch Box—that this has been I will read carefully what the Minister has said. I considered very carefully. There are a whole range of am almost convinced that this does not need to be in quite difficult issues with regard to the designation, the Bill, but would like to double check that before but we have the powers and the structure which will Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the guarantee that, where it is necessary for the sites to be amendment. charted and even, in some circumstances, where features need to be marked, the powers exist. I hope, therefore, Amendment A141 withdrawn. that the noble Baroness will feel confident enough to be able to withdraw her amendment. Clause 115 agreed.

House resumed. Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, and the noble Earl, Lord House adjourned at 10.05 pm. GC 381 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 382

Northern Ireland Health Committee indicated that Grand Committee the Northern Ireland small retailers association, the one to which I referred, was supporting the effort to Monday, 9 March 2009. do away with the displays. Of the organisations that the noble Earl has talked about now, at least one has been in contact with me to indicate that it was opposed Health Bill [HL] to the change because it would not make any difference. Committee (5th Day) That is a rather odd argument—if it does not make any difference, why not let it go through? 3.30 pm It was well known that these issues were going to be The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn): debated in Stormont. If the organisations knew about If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are that, why did they not come along and put their views sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as the to the health committee? If you read the debate, you Division bells ring and resume after 10 minutes. The will see that the Northern Ireland Assembly, without a Chief Whip is going to say a few words before we vote and without any dissent, passed the Motion start. seeking to introduce at the first available opportunity the legislation to do away with displays. Lord Bassam of Brighton: I thought the Committee These retailers in Northern Ireland seem to be might welcome this. I am conscious that there has extremely well informed about the debate that took been some prolonged debate on one issue, and it might place last Thursday. I am very pleased that there are be helpful if I say a few words about timings before the small retailers in Northern Ireland who spend a lot of Committee gets into the concentrated debate that it time reading these debates and are then able to send wishes to continue. extremely interesting and detailed e-mails listing exactly As it is, today is the last scheduled day for the what happened and who said what to which and for Committee stage of the Bill, and proceedings in Grand whom, although I do not know if that is very good for Committee, as Members will recall, are limited fairly their trade. It is interesting that this Committee is strictly to four hours. If Committee stage is not completed having a heavy impact among the retailers of Northern today, consideration will have to be concluded on Ireland, who are watching it with great concern. Wednesday 11 March—in effect, that would be an I am quite prepared to accept that there are retailers additional day. My appeal to all noble Lords is restraint, in Northern Ireland who are opposed to this measure. as well as respect in debate. However, my basic point sticks. I come back to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. Last Thursday, Clause 19 : Prohibition of tobacco displays etc he mentioned that the retailers in Northern Ireland do things differently and that they are different. I do not Debate on Clause 19 stand part resumed. understand that point. When I go into retailers in Northern Ireland I see that they have the same size of Earl Howe: Before other Members of the Committee shop; they have customers, things on display and cash rise to speak, I wonder whether we might deal with a machines. The retailers in Northern Ireland look exactly particular matter arising from our adjourned debate the same as the retailers I find in the part of London last Thursday. During that debate the noble Lord, where I live during the week. The only possible Lord Laird, stated on more than one occasion that difference—and I accept there is a difference—between small shop keepers in Northern Ireland were supportive retailers in Northern Ireland and those in the rest of of the proposal to ban point-of-sale displays of tobacco. the United Kingdom is that Northern Ireland was the He used that as an argument to suggest that small first place in the UK to impose a total ban. We also shop keepers in England who opposed the ban were have a land border with the Irish Republic, so we isolated in their view—I hope I am not misrepresenting understand the effect of a ban in a place that is not him. very far from us. This is where I acknowledge the Since last Thursday I have been contacted by two remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. The retailers organisations representing smaller shop keepers in of Northern Ireland understand about removing the Northern Ireland: the Northern Ireland Independent displays and the attack on smoking, especially for Retail Trade Association and the National Federation young people, which the Assembly has led in Northern of Retail Newsagents (Northern Ireland District). Both Ireland and the Irish Government have led in the organisations emphatically repudiate the noble Lord’s Republic, because they have had experience of it. That assertion that Northern Ireland retailers have accepted is the only difference that I can see, and I accept that it the proposal to ban tobacco displays. In fact the is a difference. NFRN says: In a debate in the Northern Ireland Assembly, the “Nothing could be further from the truth”. Minister of Health said: In the light of that, would the noble Lord like to correct or possibly withdraw the statement that he “The stark facts are that in 2007, almost 9% of children aged made last Thursday? between 11 and 16 in Northern Ireland were regular smokers. These children are 3 times more likely to die of cancer due to smoking than someone who starts in their mid-twenties. In fact, Lord Laird: I appreciate the noble Earl’s words. In the vast majority (77%) of adult smokers in Northern Ireland the debate in the Northern Ireland Assembly that took started in their teens. These are shocking statistics and it is clear place last Tuesday on this issue, a spokesman for the we must address this issue urgently”. GC 383 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 384

[LORD LAIRD] we not wish the display clause to go through? Do we I wonder what the noble Earl would like to do, if he or do we not wish to take what happened in Northern and his party wish to remove this clause about displays. Ireland as an example? It is not a case of talking about In what other ways will we stop people taking up Canada or Iceland. Northern Ireland is mentioned in smoking? How will we stop children taking up smoking? the Bill as an example of how to handle smoking; let As I indicated on Thursday, the purpose of these us use it. displays is to catch young people. Over the weekend I did an experiment in a supermarket The Earl of Listowel: The noble Earl, Lord Howe, in London. I stood beside the tobacco counter to see raised some important facts about the statistics and whether anyone who came to the counter asked the evidence in this matter. Perhaps I may give the background assistant if he was selling cigarettes, what type he was to the statistics that I gave. I said that about 70 per selling, whether he could recommend a brand, how cent of pregnant women under the age of 20 were many cigarettes were in a packet, what colour they smokers. That is from the Infant Feeding Survey 2005. were, and so on. I stood there until a security man In fact, 68 per cent of those women smoked before or took an interest in me, and I left immediately. However, during pregnancy and 45 per cent smoked throughout not one customer did anything other than go straight pregnancy. I thought that it might be helpful to the to the counter and ask, “Can I have a packet of x, y Committee to have the details of those figures. or z?”. Could not those cigarettes be dispensed from I am grateful to the noble Earl for the research that another part of the counter? Could they not be dispensed he has undertaken. It is important that we bear the from underneath the counter? concerns of newsagents in mind, and he has identified a substantive problem with the evidence. Bans on Baroness O’Cathain: I thank the noble Lord for tobacco displays are relatively new in origin and it is giving way. I think that the point he is raising is one to still difficult to be sure of their impact on both shopkeepers which we will come in a later debate. We really ought and children. A small survey of children in Saskatoon to be mindful of what the Chief Whip said. We will indicated reductions in smoking rates while the ban have an extra day on this Bill. For goodness’ sake, let was in effect. When the ban was temporarily lifted the us try to make the arguments short, sharp and to the decline in smoking stopped, to recommence when the point. I hope the noble Lord does not mind the ban was reintroduced. The statistics produced by the intervention. noble Earl related to adults and adult smoking rates. I have not yet sent him these details but I will. I thought Lord Laird: No, I very much appreciate and that he would like to be aware of them. acknowledge those remarks. However, this is an extremely important debate. I listened carefully to what the Chief Whip said, but it strikes me that if we need an Lord Rea: In my contribution last Thursday I referred extra day, we need an extra day. If we need an extra to a speech in December 2006 by Geoff Good, the week, we will take an extra week. This is important. I global brand director of Imperial Tobacco. It has been had a heart attack two years ago and my consultant pointed out to me that I misinterpreted his speech said to me: “Go nowhere where you are likely to be when I reported him as saying that, confronted with smoke—not passive smoke, not in the “new methods of maintaining sales and attracting young people street—because you cannot take it. It is a threat to to tobacco smoking must be devised”.—[Official Report, 5/3/09; your existence”. I make no apology for being totally col. GC 371.] opposed to smoking and speaking passionately against His actual words were as follows: smoking. I will use every opportunity to do so, at this “The reason I’ve chosenL&BisthattheUKisnowaDark and every other stage. Market. In 2003 we saw the introduction of the Tobacco Advertising & Promotions Bill, which effectively banned us from promoting Lord Stoddart of Swindon: As the noble Lord, Lord all tobacco products and means there is no main media advertising, no point-of-sale advertising (apart from one A5-size notice)”— Laird, mentioned me during his prolonged remarks, I should state exactly what happened. The noble Lord I would question that— said: “no direct marketing and no promotions. In this challenging “Why is it that the retailers of Northern Ireland support this environment, the marketing team have to become more creative”. ban? What is the difference?”—[Official Report, 5/3/09; col. GC 370]— I agree that he did not mention “young people” or that is, the difference between Northern Ireland and “children”, and I apologise for implying that he did. England. I sought to reply to that and said: Of course, he would not have been so unwise. However, “My father used to live in Northern Ireland; it is a great place I suggest that the word “creative” could, in these with great people. I welcome the fact that they are of independent circumstances, include the sort of prominent display mind and that they will do things in their way rather than in our at point of sale that we have been discussing. way”.—[Official Report, 5/3/09; col. GC 375.] I pointed out that the tobacco industry pays for In reports from other sources it would appear that these so-called gantries to be installed, and it is very retailers in Northern Ireland want to do it England’s unlikely that it would do so if market research did not way. So the strictures of the noble Lord, Lord Laird, show them to be effective in promoting sales. In fact, against me are misplaced. after the word “creative”, this piece goes on to say: Lord Laird: While not wishing to elongate this “We therefore decided to look at the pack design. Although Lambert and Butler was clearly the No 1 brand in the UK with a debate, I want to put the record right. At col. GC 375 perfectly good design, given the limitations, in 2004 we decided to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said that, “Northern research a new version which would celebrate the fact that the Ireland is different”. The issue is simple: do we or do brand has been on the market for 25 years. The research surprised us”. GC 385 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 386

I am nearly coming to an end. It continues: These serious shortcomings of the consultation “We looked at various alternative designs, and all the packs were paper and process were brought to the attention of the rated very highly by smokers. However, the pack which became Equality and Human Rights Commission by the Tobacco known internally as the ‘Celebration’ pack, was the winner—indeed Retailers Alliance. It agreed that this was wrong but, it was the most positively received pack change we have had from as yet, we have had no further response from it. In consumers in the life of the brand”. short, there were most serious omissions and shortcomings I realise that we are to have an amendment later on in the consultation process and the paper. Frankly, this very topic but, unfortunately, I shall not be present. there is no satisfactory remedy to that situation other So my occupying the Committee’s time now will save than to reject Clause 19. time later. Thirdly, the results of the consultation, flawed as it was, seriously misrepresented the situation. I discovered that of the 90,000 responses, 49,000 came from Smoke 3.45 pm Free North West and comprised written postcards or Lord Naseby: I think that we forget too easily some e-mails. Is anybody suggesting that that is real of the basic facts of this market. The situation now is consultation? Perhaps we ought to look at who provides that we are down to 21 per cent of people smoking; we the money for these organisations. I further discovered are down to the lowest level of young people smoking, that 79,000 out of 90,000 representations came from at 6 per cent; those in the 21 per cent do not all die government-funded bodies. Therefore, it is not surprising from lung cancer; and certainly the rest of us do not that they responded as the Government wished them die from passive smoking. There are 5,000-plus direct to. The Government provided the money for them to employees in the tobacco industry; 80,000 jobs are respond; they responded as the Government wished, dependent on that industry; government revenue amounts and then they say there has been consultation. I do not to £9.9 billion; the huge amount of illegal imports believe that is genuine consultation. I do not believe costs the UK Government somewhere between £3 billion that any Minister of any Government could stand up and £4 billion; and 25,000 small shops will be directly and say that that was genuine consultation. affected by this clause. Therefore, in my judgment, So far I have seen no relevant and convincing anything that we do in this Bill has to be proportional, evidence to demonstrate that the banning of product evidence-based and rational. displays would lead to fewer young people smoking. I should like to pick up a few of the issues that, Certainly, a display ban would have a serious impact from my reading of Hansard, I do not think have been on retailers, particularly small community shops and discussed already, and I have been here for the vast stores. The situation is very different in Canada. Any majority of this Committee. First, the powers to make of us who have lived in Canada will know that you get regulations governing displays were provided in 2002 modular stores in Canada, whereas there are very few in the last Bill, in which many of us took part. There small modular stores in the United Kingdom. It may were consultations with trading standards following cost only £300—as converted from the dollar rate the regulations tabled by the Government, and in when the consultation was carried out in Canada—to 2006 trading standards found that there was good convert a gantry in Canada. However, if I wanted to compliance. There were also discussions about some change my daughter’s shop—thankfully, it does not amendments. However, what I do not understand, sell tobacco or sweets; it is a cookware shop—I would and perhaps the Minister will tell me, is why the get a UK shopfitter to give an estimate for changing a Department of Health refused to take part in any of gantry or anything else. I certainly would not use— those discussions. Secondly, the consultation on product display was Baroness Young of Old Scone: I am a regular shopper flawed. Three options were in the original consultation in the noble Lord’s daughter’s shop, which is a very paper put out by the Department of Health, but the upmarket, glitzy cookware shop in Bedford. With only two that were considered were numbers 1 and respect, it is absolutely not relevant to the situation of 3—that is, maintaining the status quo or total prohibition. a small-scale newsagent. I do not understand why option 2 put forward by the department—the making of regulations to restrict displays—was totally ignored. That seems to me entirely Lord Naseby: I am most grateful to the noble wrong, and it is not just me who feels aggrieved by it. Baroness for her patronage. She will know that there The code of conduct on consultations put forward by are hundreds of tiny little items on a gantry in the the present Government says—and it should be adhered shop, most of which cost less than £10. If that is to by all government departments—that all options upmarket, so be it. should be considered. It is to be hoped that the Minister will give the The consultation was at further serious fault in not Committee guidance on precisely how the relevant taking account of the large number of people likely to regulations governing the selling of a retailer’s legitimate be substantially affected by the proposals on tobacco, tobacco products will be framed. I wish to spend a few particularly small-scale retailers, who, frankly, we all moments discussing the illicit market, which I do know are unfamiliar with the complexity and form of not think anybody has addressed with the exception of language in a consultation paper and did not find it my noble friend on the Front Bench, who did so accessible. Where accessibility is so limited, engagement relatively shortly. As I said in my opening remarks, we beyond the printed word is considered by the new should be clear that Her Majesty’s Revenue is losing department of BERR to be a consideration to which something like £3 billion to £4 billion a year through departments should have regard. counterfeit tobacco products and illegal smuggling. GC 387 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 388

[LORD NASEBY] because the graphics are extremely interesting, but the Seventeen per cent of all cigarettes, and 59 per cent of fact is that half of them will not understand what they hand-rolling tobacco, are estimated to be brought into are about. I would even question whether Members of this country illegally.Since 2000, something like £26 billion the Committee would be able to diagnose what they worth of such goods have come into this country. The were about if we had not put the explanations underneath. appeal of the illicit products is obvious—the price. The primary message, usually to be found just behind There is a 50 to 100 per cent price differential between the cash till, is that it is illegal to sell cigarettes to the UK and the Continent. I am sorry to say that these under 18 year-olds, while the two words “Smoking illicit products are particularly attractive to young kills” are what is communicated to anyone who looks people. Why? If you are a student or a young person at the gantry. who has just started work, your income is restricted. Obviously, if you want to smoke, you buy from the cheapest source; and if the cheapest source is the local Lord Monson: There are three further reasons why boot fair or the local environmental fair, that is where Clause 19 should be rejected, over and above those you will go. advanced so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Naseby. The first is that during the passage through Parliament In the last survey undertaken by Trading Standards of the 2002 Bill, Ministers in both Houses said repeatedly North West, a large survey involving 11,000 14 to that they were content with the way tobacco products 17 year-olds, some 36 per cent claimed that they had were displayed at the point of sale, and how they are bought cigarettes from an illicit trader, while 56 per displayed has not altered noticeably since then. The cent had bought packets with a foreign language health second is that even the zealots, by which I mean above warning—in other words, not duty paid, and they all ASH, have conceded that the evidence is shaky. probably could not understand the health message Indeed the ASH Daily News wrote that, either. So this is a very serious point, and it is no good the Department of Health suggesting that out of sight “it is not possible to definitely claim causation at this stage”. is out of mind because that presumption is totally The split infinitive does not detract from the validity incorrect. It needs to get its act together in this area of that admission. because I am a great believer in public health. It is one The third reason is the valuable contribution made of the reasons I came into politics at all, and certainly last time round by the noble Baroness, Lady Golding. when I was leader of the London Borough of Islington, She took the trouble to investigate how young people it was clear that public health is absolutely vital. This aged between 14 and 17 or thereabouts actually think trade is totally undermining our public health policy, and behave as opposed to how political theorists imagine it will grow and grow with a display ban, and the they think and behave. She told us that young people Government need to be very conscious of that. do not go into tobacconists, grocers and supermarkets I conclude by saying that the noble Lord, Lord to buy their cigarettes; they get them from friends in Borrie, gave an extremely good précis of the situation the playground, from people at street corners and so in relation to the effects on competition, and I do not on. This is borne out by the figures just quoted by the need to repeat a word of his other than totally to agree noble Lord, Lord Naseby, from a survey of 11,000 with him. With that, I end my remarks and hope that I teenagers undertaken by Trading Standards North have followed what the Chief Whip requested, and I West. All these things put together make an overwhelming look forward to listening to and hopefully getting case for rejecting Clause 19. some real, positive and clear answers from the Minister. 4pm The Earl of Listowel: I should like to put a brief Lord Palmer: I raised at Second Reading the problem question to the noble Lord. I believe that I am correct of the imported illegal tobacco trade, and I re-emphasise in saying that he has some expertise in and experience the words of the noble Lord, Lord Naseby. Indeed, I of the world of marketing. Given that, does he think it concur with my noble friend Lord Listowel: the noble possible that the prominent positioning of tobacco Lord, Lord Naseby, has great marketing experience. products in newsagents close to where children regularly Indeed, I was fortunate enough to work for him very buy their chocolates and sweets, so that they can many years ago. I reiterate that we must know what clearly see the cigarette packets, is unlikely to influence plans the Government have to crack down on that whether children choose to smoke? illegal trade. That is very serious.

Lord Naseby: The noble Earl is correct that I have considerable marketing experience. He, along with all Baroness Howarth of Breckland: I beg indulgence other noble Lords, will know that there is a damn for two minutes, because I was not here on Thursday great sign alongside the gantry stating that it is illegal and I must confess to being totally lost about what to sell tobacco to people aged under 18. The first procedural point we have reached. I want to say two words to hit anyone looking at a cigarette packet on sentences, and that is all. The two sentences are these. the gantry are “Smoking kills”, and there is nothing If the advertising makes no difference, why do it? If it wrong with that. It is the primary communication does, there is every reason for us to ban it. made by the gantry, and if it is the right communication, I have been going around looking in corner shops I think that we can be well satisfied with aspects of the recently. It is quite clear to me that the displays are 2002 legislation. However, I do not believe that young advertising and that the tobacco advertising Act should people are influenced by it. They might find the new have ensured that they did not continue. I have spent pictures a bit more fascinating than the old ones, years dealing with children, their perceptions and how GC 389 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 390 they learn and respond. I know that children are I wholly support many of the remarks made in influenced by colour and connection. The displays are favour of this clause standing part of the Bill. Smoking colourful and connected to sweets, which says to children, is absolutely one of the biggest health challenges “Sweets are sort of okay”—I have an issue about facing us. I do not believe that this provision will drive sweets and obesity, but sweets are a treat—“so cigarettes, small shops underground or make them defunct. With which are next to them, must be sort of okay”. All 15 per cent of our 15 year-olds smoking, and with those things are true. smoking probably one of the biggest contributors to I apologise for interjecting, but having listened to the health inequality of social class 5 compared with the last few speakers, I felt provoked to get up to say any other cause, I believe that we ought to let this that there are some unrealities and the real argument clause remain part of the Bill. I hope the Minister will is: if they do not make a difference, we do not mind not mind me giving her that support. losing them anyway; if they do, there is every reason to ban them. Baroness Thornton: I am very glad to receive the noble Baroness’s support. Lord Naseby: May I just clarify that for the noble Baroness? Advertising is paid-for communication through I listened very carefully to the noble Earl’s opening all sorts of different media. Putting a product in a remarks, as I always do, because I hold his views in pack to look after the quality of the product inside the very high esteem. He was, as ever, succinct and pack is not advertising. The fact that you put on the compelling. We have had a lengthy debate, both last name of the brand is therefore for consumer recognition week and today, and the clause has provoked strong between one pack on the shelf and another, both of reactions. Like the noble Earl, I spent a large part of which have cigarettes inside. the weekend reviewing the evidence on which the Government’s case rests and reading the Hansard report of Thursday’s debate. I have to say to the noble Lord Walton of Detchant: I do not propose to Earl that I find the evidence convincing. If I may, I detain the Committee for long in the light of what the shall spend some time explaining to the Committee Chief Whip said a little while ago. I was unable to be what our aims are; what the Bill will mean in practice here on Thursday, but having heard the speeches this for retailers and customers; why we believe that the afternoon, I want to make three small points. First, measure is necessary, effective and proportionate; and tobacco smoking is one of the greatest health hazards also to touch on the underlying evidence, in sufficient of the age. It causes not just lung cancer but many but not too much detail. other forms of cancer. It is a major cause of heart disease and stroke. It is a tremendous medical scourge Let me be very clear about our aims in removing and anything that we can do to reduce the incidence of tobacco displays. We want to protect children from the tobacco smoking is in my opinion crucial in the interests marketing of tobacco products and also support those of the health of the community. who are trying to quit smoking. Perhaps I may explain how the clause would do that. The issue of tobacco advertising was debated at length in this House and elsewhere in Parliament and Section 7A of Clause 19 prohibits the display of the Government in their wisdom decreed that advertising tobacco products in England, Wales and Northern should be banned. I said at the time that I smoked my Ireland. This means that the shelving in shops, known first cigarette in a mining village in Durham county as gantries, would have to be covered up. That does when I was 10 years of age. By the time I was 14, I was not mean that cigarette packets would have to be smoking not regularly but frequently when I could moved and stored elsewhere. We have no intention of avoid being spotted by my parents. By the time I was dictating that tobacco products have to be located in in the Army in 1948, I was smoking 25 cigarettes a day any particular place, such as under the counter or because I could get a 50 can of Senior Service for one overhead. Retailers would be free to cover the gantry shilling and eight pence on my hospital ship. I did not as they see fit provided that they comply with the know the hazards at that time. I gave up smoking regulations. In practice, and as many noble Lords have completely when I was in my mid-40s. Happily, the said, the majority of customers would ask to buy their statistics show that if you give up in your mid-40s, the regular brand. The shop assistant—I am grateful to incidence, the risk of cancer and so on, after another the noble Lord, Lord Laird, for his research; I hope he five years falls to that in the non-smoker. did not get into trouble with the security services in the supermarket he visited—would reach to the existing Recently agreed guidelines to the WHO framework gantry and simply lift a flap or slide back a cover to convention on tobacco control define retail displays, take a packet out and then immediately close it again. vending machines and tobacco packaging as forms of The flap could be sprung to be self-closing. Some advertising and promotion and recommend that parties Canadian systems have magnetic flaps that close to the FCTC, which includes the UK, should ban automatically. In serving customers the shopkeeper retail displays and the sale of tobacco products in would have to reveal a limited display which could of vending machines and consider the adoption of plain course be seen incidentally by anyone nearby, including packaging. I warmly support all those initiatives. children, but as long as the display complies with the regulations no offence would be committed. Baroness Young of Old Scone: I know that the The approach likely to be taken in regulations is to Minister is dying to get going—just one more intervention. define the maximum area of display that it would be It is difficult when the Chief Whip tells us that we may legal to reveal at any one time and to say that it must not speak in support of the Government. only be revealed for as long as is reasonable in order to GC 391 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 392

[BARONESS THORNTON] The retailer could select a product from a covered serve a customer. The area could, for example, be set gantry knowing that the small number of cigarettes on as one or two square feet, but this has yet to be display for a short period of time would not constitute decided and will be the subject of consultation. Let us an offence. Our children would be protected from not be obtuse about this. This is not about preventing tobacco marketing, and smokers who want to quit any viewing ever of a cigarette pack by a child. But would also be supported. there is a big difference between seeing a single cigarette I should like to take some time to set out why this is pack and being exposed to a large, brightly lit and an important public health measure. As has already colourful gantry in your local corner shop next to been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Walton of your sweets. Detchant, smoking is the single biggest cause of I support the noble Lord, Lord Monson, in his aim preventable illness and premature death in England. It to reduce children’s exposure to the glamorisation of results in more preventable deaths each year than from smoking—a point that he made in our debate last suicide, alcohol, road traffic accidents, illicit drugs and week. I personally wish that models and celebrities diabetes combined. It is the primary reason for the gap would quit smoking for their own sake and for that of in life expectancy between rich and poor. Since the thousands of young people, particularly young women, Second Reading debate, we can confirm that the latest who believe that smoking is glamorous and will keep figure for the number of deaths caused by smoking in you slim. England each year is 84,000. The Royal College of However, this policy is about preventing the tobacco Physicians tells us that smoking is now positively industry promoting smoking through the well established associated with more than 40 diseases, and the list marketing tool of display. We must be practical, which continues to grow. is why new Section 7B(2) provides that there will be no We know that the nicotine in tobacco products offence for a “requested display”. I do not want to makes them powerfully addictive. We also know that repeat the debate that we have already had on this but tobacco manufacturers have purposefully designed, I should like to explain. engineered and marketed cigarettes to enhance both In reality, the majority of smokers know which the development and maintenance of addiction. According brand they are going to buy when they go into a shop. to the US Surgeon-General, nicotine is five to 10 times Research shows that less than 10 per cent of smokers more potent than cocaine or morphine in producing change brands each year, and only 1 per cent say that the behavioural and psychological effects associated their decision to do so is based on the display. However, with addiction. The Royal College of Physicians says some customers will need the chance to see a particular that, in comparison with other substances, including cigarette packet before buying it. Under the “requested cocaine and heroin, initial use of nicotine is more display” provision, customers would be able to ask to likely to lead to addiction. The prevalence of addiction see a cigarette packet. The retailer could show them among smokers is higher than it is among users of the pack and this would not be an offence, provided other drugs. the customer was aged 18 or over. The real effect of The latest figures show that nearly seven in 10 adults the “requested display” provision would be to ensure who smoke say that they want to quit, and 45 per cent that shop assistants challenged customers who might will make a serious attempt to quit. Most smokers will be underage at the earliest opportunity, as soon as try quitting 10 or more times before succeeding. Some they asked to see a tobacco product. After all, there is two-thirds of current and past smokers say that they not much point in showing them cigarettes if they are started smoking regularly before they were 18 years not legally able to buy them. old. That means that they were hooked on nicotine in tobacco before they were old enough to make an Customers would still need to know what tobacco informed adult decision about whether or not to smoke. products a shop sold and, as discussed previously in Among young people who try smoking cigarettes, response to the amendment of the noble Baroness, between one-third and one-half are likely to become Lady Tonge—or perhaps it was the noble Baroness, regular smokers within two to three years. However, Lady Barker—on Section 7C, retailers would be able evidence shows that signs of addiction can emerge to display price and availability lists. We are already within weeks of trying to smoke. In 2007, nearly working with the Association of Convenience Stores 200,000 children between 11 and 15 were already and the British Retail Consortium to develop appropriate regular smokers. The Government strongly believe regulations on the display of products and price lists. that we have a responsibility to do everything we can The clause also makes an exemption from the general to protect young people from becoming addicted to prohibition for the tobacco trade, enabling wholesalers tobacco. to continue to display their products for sale to the retail trade. We are considering making further exemptions 4.15 pm by regulation, such as for specialist tobacconists. We also believe we should do everything we can to Finally, Section 7D provides regulation-making powers support those people who are already addicted but to control the display of tobacco products and their want to quit. I am delighted that the noble Earl and prices on a website where the service provider of that many other noble Lords are fully signed-up to our website is based in the UK. Therefore, retailers in this public health objectives. I shall now set out why this tobacco display-free world could continue to display a policy will be effective in helping us to achieve them. generic “tobacco” or “cigarettes for sale” sign outside The first point to consider is the role of display. their shop. Customers could check the products available Product display is a well-established marketing principle and their prices on a clearly displayed, plain price list. deliberately used across the retail sector. It is one of GC 393 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 394 the last remaining means of promotion of tobacco ban; the third in summer 2004, about 18 months after since the comprehensive Tobacco Advertising and the ban; and the final wave was collected in summer Promotion Act 2002 and subsequent regulations. In 2006, about three and a half years after the ban. the past few years we have seen tobacco displays grow I am going into this detail because the noble Earl to become large, brightly-lit features of most shops, was concerned about the robust nature of this research. incorporating promotional aspects such as clock and The data collection involved face-to-face interviews tower cases. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, pointed out and self-completion questionnaires. The participants that our consultation document indicated a lack of were a cross-sectional group of 11 to 16 year-olds research on this point. I am pleased to inform him covering a variety of backgrounds, social groups and that, since the publication of the consultation, ASH lifestyles. In total, 4,479 children took part over seven has commissioned a report on tobacco points of sale years. The study looked at how aware of tobacco summarising evidence from 153 retail premises across marketing children were, and this impacted on their 20 different local authorities. The report states: behaviour and attitudes towards smoking. If noble “In all premises the packs are prominently displayed … in Lords are interested in reading the report I would be such a way as to promote the product to customers … Photographic most happy to make it available to them. The findings examples clearly show that such displays are used as a marketing of the summary report are key and worth quoting. tool … The displays are believed to be typical across the retail trade as a whole”. The first is that, I strongly urge the noble Earl and other noble Lords “Prominent point of sale displays … can distort perceived smoking norms by making smoking seem a more normal and to look at these photographs—I shall be happy to common activity than it is in reality”. make them available—and compare them with displays in 2002. They are significantly different. Since we The second is that, stopped the tobacco industry promoting smoking by “International evidence suggests that removing packs from other means, tobacco displays have got bigger and sight at point of sale could reduce adolescents’ exposure to brighter. cigarette brand impressions in stores by as much as 83%. It would also help adults to quit”. The second point to consider is whether the tobacco industry’s investment in display has been worth it. My The third is that, noble friend Lady Golding relayed her conversation “There is clear evidence that tobacco point of sale has a direct with a 15 year-old who said we should talk to children impact on young people’s smoking”; before removing tobacco displays. Indeed, last week, and the fourth is that, when we held the presentations that I had arranged with Professor Gerald Hastings, that is exactly what “Among established smokers, point of sale does not facilitate brand choice … it stimulates impulse purchases and undermines he reported to us from the interviewing of 13 year-olds efforts of smokers to quit”. about tobacco displays. The comments were striking: The noble Earl, Lord Howe, questioned the logic of “If you don’t see them you might not think about it then go for a day without them … In some shops the tabs”— the author of the report based on a conversation. I hope that he might go back and take a second look at which is slang for cigarettes, in case noble Lords are in the evidence. We have taken advice on the quality of doubt— evidence for the measure from peer-reviewed academic “are just out on display and the kids just look at them and think, research, from internationally recognised experts and from ‘I want that’”. widely respected academic and charitable organisations. They say that if these displays were not there, the Although it is of course his prerogative to disagree cigarettes would be out of sight and out of mind. that the evidence is sufficient to justify the policy, he has not presented any evidence to dissuade me from It is right that we should talk to children before my view that the evidence supports our policy. making policies which will impact on them. We were delighted to receive responses to our consultation Bearing in mind the need to be brief, I have simply from a number of young people’s groups. They were summarised the evidence base so far. If noble Lords strongly supportive of this policy and other tobacco wish to consider the evidence further they might like control measures. to read the Cancer Research UK report and the impact On experimental evidence, Cancer Research UK assessment accompanying the Bill. They may also recently published a summary report detailing findings wish to see the Department of Health website, which of primary research with UK adolescents and the provides a factsheet, and the presentations from the extensive existing evidence base for this policy. The authors of the point-of-sale and Cancer Research UK primary research was based on a long-term study, the reports. Youth Tobacco Awareness Survey, which examines the I move now to the question of proportionality. We impacts of tobacco advertising restrictions on young want pragmatic solutions to the issue of removing people in the UK. A number of peer-reviewed academic tobacco displays. That is why we are already talking to papers have been published based on this work and key stakeholders, such as the Association of Convenience one focused specifically on how tobacco marketing Stores, the British Retail Consortium and the Association continues despite the advertising ban currently in of Independent Tobacco Specialists, and I have a preparation. The first wave of data collection for the meeting arranged with the National Federation of primary research took place in autumn 1999, more Retail Newsagents for tomorrow evening. I should than three years before the Tobacco Advertising and point out that for many years I was chair of the Promotion Act; the second wave was conducted in All-Party Parliamentary Retail Group before joining summer 2002, approximately six months before the the Government, and I worked for the Co-Op for GC 395 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 396

[BARONESS THORNTON] of tobacco for ever. The market for tobacco will 15 years as part of my career. So I do understand continue to decline, a point made by the noble Lord, retailing and marketing. I have a record of support for Lord Naseby, and a fact for which we make no apologies. the British retail industry, including small stores. This means that small retailers need to diversify their The Association of Convenience Stores and the businesses to take account of customers’ changing British Retail Consortium are arranging for officials spending patterns, a fact acknowledged in Convenience from my department to visit a convenience store in Store magazine in May last year when it stated: order to assist with the drafting of regulations. I “We are investing heavily in non-tobacco areas. Frankly, that actually hope that they will visit more than one. is where the future is”. International experience shows that removing tobacco We are particularly aware— displays need not be costly. One acceptable low-cost solution which my officials saw during their visit to Earl Howe: What the small shops are afraid of is Canada has been used by many stores across that not a gradual tailing off of tobacco turnover, but a country. We have received a quote from the company sudden cessation of such turnover. That is what they which provides this solution and supplies 85 per cent say is going to hit them very hard. of the Canadian market, and it would cost 15 Canadian dollars—around £8.40—per square foot of display covered. Although I accept the point made by the Baroness Thornton: I hope that I have given some noble Lord, Lord Naseby, that this is not Canada, I comfort on that, and I will certainly talk to their would also suggest that that is a reasonable indication representatives when I meet them tomorrow. of the type of cost we are talking about. The point-of-sale report I referred to earlier found Lord Naseby: Could the noble Baroness share the that small independent newsagents had a minimum comfort that she intends to offer the small shop owner display area of 1 metre by 1.3 metres—or about 3 feet representatives tomorrow? 3 inches by 4 feet 3 inches in old currency. The cost could be as little as £120. Even a display of 25 square feet could be covered at a cost of around £210. I Baroness Thornton: I have gone into some detail should emphasise that there would be economies of about how we think this will work and why we think scale to be gained for larger display areas or if several that it will not have the devastating impact that the shops worked together. So it is not a simple matter of noble Earl and the noble Lord suggest. However, we multiplication for larger stores. are aware that in the current economic climate, small businesses are struggling, and that is why we would not commence this legislation until 2011 for larger Baroness O’Cathain: I am sorry to interrupt the stores and 2013 for small ones. We understand that Minister, but it struck me that all these display gantries small convenience stores replace their tobacco gantries are actually paid for by the tobacco industry. every five years or so, and that means that refurbishments would be able to be made in the normal refurbishment Baroness Thornton: The noble Baroness is correct. I cycle for many stores. Providing an extra two years’ am coming to that point next. The Government have lead-in time for implementation will enable small shops set out in the regulatory impact assessment accompanying to take advantage of the innovative solutions that I am the Bill the potential cost of these measures to business, sure will be developed, and that extra time has been using an estimated average cost of £1,000 a store. That welcomed by the Association of Convenience Stores. is a generous assessment which more than allows for The noble Earl, Lord Howe, noted concerns expressed the stores that may choose more elaborate means to by retailers, particularly in the growth in membership remove their tobacco displays. In its response to our of the Tobacco Retailers Alliance. I hope that he is consultation, the Association of Convenience Stores aware that the alliance is funded by the Tobacco said: Manufacturers’ Association, which represents three of “We do know that it is commonplace for tobacco companies the largest tobacco companies: British American Tobacco to pay for gantries and their replacement”. UK, Gallagher and Imperial Tobacco. Of course we The noble Baroness was, as ever, ahead of me. We could trade statistics on who has written to whom understand from experience in Canada that the tobacco about what consultations, but I should like to note industry continued to fund the cost of tobacco gantries that the Save our Shops postcard campaign that lobbied even after a prohibition on display. The suggestion has for many Members of this House and the other place also been made that removing the display of tobacco was run by the Responsible Retailers’ Campaign, which would impact on business by reducing footfall trade, is also funded by the tobacco retailers. by which I mean the sale of other items such as Perhaps I may refer to a few points made by the newspapers and sweets to customers who buy cigarettes. noble Lord, Lord Naseby, and others. He raised the I think we should be realistic about this. issue about where children get their tobacco products. First, people who choose to smoke will continue to That research—Smoking, Drinking and Drug Use among buy their cigarettes and secondary purchases even Young People, from the NHS statistics and information after tobacco is removed from display. Secondly, the centre—shows that 78 per cent of young people buy provisions of this Bill will apply equally to all tobacco their cigarettes from shops, either local shops or retailers, so it will not favour one over another; there supermarkets, with 17 per cent buying from machines. will be a level playing field for all businesses. Finally, I am happy to make the material available to the retailers understand that they cannot rely on the sale noble Lord. GC 397 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 398

Baroness Cumberlege: What is the date on that Baroness Thornton: We are just following the statement? Is that before or after the new legislation? international codes on the dealings one should have with the tobacco industry. It is very straightforward. I think that we shall discuss this later. Baroness Thornton: It is from 2006.

Baroness Northover: We will indeed discuss an Baroness Cumberlege: So it does not actually relate amendment that I tabled that relates to the WHO to the ban on the 18 year-olds. guidelines, which state that Governments should not be unduly lobbied by the tobacco industry or unduly Baroness Thornton: No, it does not. swayed by it, and that they should not meet it in those circumstances. The Foreign Office already has that guidance as regards how it operates overseas. We will 4.30 pm come to that later. Lord Naseby: I should point out to the Minister that the survey to which I referred was carried out by Baroness Thornton: I thank the noble Baroness for Trading Standards North West in September 2007. It those comments. The general public are concerned is important that the Minister gives the dates of her about youth smoking. In a public opinion poll conducted surveys because this is a moving market and it is very by ICM in October, more than eight in 10 people said difficult for Members of the Committee to keep track that they were concerned about children and young if evidence is given which has been overtaken by other people starting to smoke, and agreed that the Government events in the market. should do more to discourage them from doing so and help those who do smoke to quit. Baroness Thornton: The noble Lord may have a Nearly seven in 10 people agreed that tobacco point there, and I will certainly check it. However, I displays should be removed from shops if there were think that it is very unlikely that young people are not evidence that it would discourage young people from buying their cigarettes from shops. As I say, I will starting to smoke, and we are confident that there is check that, but our information shows that the vast robust evidence. There is also significant support for a majority of children get their tobacco products from prohibition on display from a wide range of organisations, shops. The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, referred to the including: the Royal College of Physicians, Asthma consultation process. We received more than 100,000 UK, the British Heart Foundation, the British Medical responses to the consultation: 10,586 responses from Association, the Local Government Association, Marie small retailers, including the pre-prepared postcards Curie Cancer Care, the National Children’s Bureau, or e-mails made available to respondents from third the National Heart Forum, the Royal College of Nursing, parties; 11 responses from large retailers; 21 responses the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, as from retail industry representative organisations, including well as numerous local authorities and NHS bodies. trade organisations; and seven responses from Internationally, a growing number of jurisdictions are organisations that receive funding directly from the removing, or planning to remove, tobacco displays. department for programmes of work relating to smoking. They include Iceland, 12 of the 13 Canadian provinces, We received 85,000 responses from members of the Thailand, the British Virgin Islands and Norway. In public, which also included pre-prepared postcards or addition, four states in Australia are consulting or e-mails made available by third parties. planning to legislate. The noble Lord said that the consultation was Noble Lords referred in our debate on Thursday to unsatisfactory in terms of Asian shopkeepers and the New Zealand. The New Zealand Government have Equality and Human Rights Commission. I have dealt changed their mind. They are ignoring a recommendation with the correspondence on this issue and have invited from their health committee to remove displays. That representatives of the relevant association to a meeting change of heart came about after a general election tomorrow. However, the organisation which was helping that installed a Conservative Government. They have them to submit letters to the Equality and Human provided no evidence above and beyond that available Rights Commission was funded by the tobacco industry. to the committee that first recommended that policy. In view of the Government’s policy on this matter, I That is not an example that we intend to follow. Most cannot meet with an organisation which is funded important for us, perhaps, is Scotland’s decision to directly by the tobacco industry. However, as I want to remove tobacco displays. It would be a shame if it take their concerns on board, I have invited them to were only the children of Scotland—and, indeed, join my larger meeting tomorrow, if they wish to Ireland—who were protected from tobacco industry do so. promotion. It is an essential measure to reduce smoking by young people and to support smokers who want to quit, and it should stand part of the Bill. Lord Naseby: Will the Minister clarify that? Is she saying that Her Majesty’s Government will not meet Earl Howe: Last Thursday, the noble Baroness, with any organisation that receives money from the Lady Young, questioned where I was coming from in tobacco industry, but will meet with ASH and all the arguing against the provisions. Very simply, I come other bodies to whom they provided funds, which from a school that rates personal and commercial then make representations to them? Is that a level freedoms more highly than many societal goods. I do playing field? not come from the school of big government. GC 399 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 400

[EARL HOWE] interviewed about the eye-catching nature of displays Big government may sometimes be necessary, but we but we cannot base an evidential case on speech have to justify its intrusion into our lives before bubbles. The most that these show is that some allowing it. displays are eye-catching; they do not show that they It is right that we look at the scientific evidence affect smoking behaviour. both for and against, but in the end this is a political A number of noble Lords, including the Minister, judgment. It is a judgment that weighs up prospective have pointed to legislation in other countries. Perhaps public health benefits on the one hand and the risk to I may end by stating the obvious. Passing legislation in commercial freedoms and the viability of businesses this House is not a matter of routinely copying other on the other. Therefore, this debate is both appropriate countries or jurisdictions. If it were, our lives would be and necessary. Those of us who were prepared to sign immeasurably easier. It behoves us as responsible up to the ban on tobacco advertising and smoking in legislators to decide these issues for ourselves, looking public places judged that the case for those measures at the circumstances particular to our own country. I had been sufficiently made. I fear that in this case I am do not think that we should be deflected in the slightest in the other camp. Unfortunately for her, the Minister’s from having a thorough debate and reaching our own reply has taken me no further forward in accepting the conclusions. We will doubtless continue the debate Government’s arguments, although I shall of course and reach those conclusions at the next stage of the look carefully at all the sources of reference that she Bill. highlighted. It is not clear to me why, if the Government are so exercised about point-of-sale displays and the possibility The Deputy Chairman of Committees: The Question that they may have come to resemble de facto is that Clause— advertisements, they do not regulate to restrict the size and content of such displays instead of banning them altogether. After all, it is not so long ago that Ministers Lord Stoddart of Swindon: We have not finished felt able make a clear distinction between what constituted yet. When I objected to the Bill being taken in Grand an advertisement, which, in their eyes, was harmful, Committee, I was told, “There will be plenty of time and what constituted a display, which they felt was to debate it in Grand Committee”. The noble Baroness not. If we accept for a moment without further evidence treated us to a very long explanation as to why this that some displays have changed and become more legislation should go through. I very much appreciated eye-catching and glitzy, why not regulate to make that, but I came to the conclusion that she was talking them less glitzy and take us back to how displays about not a ban on displays but a ban on tobacco, supposedly used to be? That option does not appear to full stop. have been considered at any length by Ministers. If it is true, as the Royal College of Physicians has Another issue needs to be mentioned, but the Minister apparently told the noble Baroness, that smoking is did not do so. If tobacco companies are prevented more dangerous than cannabis and cocaine, then it from engaging in commercial competition at point of should be banned. Let us have a little less hypocrisy. If sale, which is what a display ban would mean, they that is the case and the Government accept that case, would resort to competing on price. One brand of they should ban it. They should make tobacco a class cigarette is already trying to do that. The recommended A drug. Why do they not do that? Why do they keep retail price of that brand per pack is only 1p above the coming to us in dribs and drabs, banning this and that, aggregate amount of government taxes. What do we now banning displays and vending machines and what want to achieve? Do we want cigarettes to become have you? Why are they messing about with it? Why do cheaper? As far as the young are concerned, the cheaper, they not come clean and say that they want a complete the better. We have only to think of the damage done ban and bring forward a Bill that would do that? It by the illicit market in smuggled tobacco, which can be may very well be that they do not want to do that half the price of the duty-paid product to appreciate because there is £10 billion at stake, but let us have the the risk that we are running with this measure. truth. If that is the case, then we can understand why Incidentally, is the Minister aware that the black these restrictions come along in dribs and drabs: they market in cigarettes does not feature in Iceland? That want to hang on to the money but they want to is another reason why comparisons with that country bombard the smoker and the tobacco companies with are somewhat dangerous. The Canadian Convenience all sorts of restrictions. Stores Association stated: With regard to the Government’s refusal to talk to “In Canada (since the inception of display bans) we have seen the tobacco industry and anyone who is promoted by unprecedented growth of contraband/illegal tobacco and now them or receives promotion from them, do they talk to one in every two cigarettes sold are sourced through the black the drug companies? The drug companies are very market”. well known for giving gifts and so on to GPs to If we look at what drives young people to take up promote some products which have proved to be smoking, the main influences are: peer pressure; dangerous, such as thalidomide. It is no good saying image consciousness, because it is seen as being cool; “Gosh”; we are having an argument about something and having parents who smoke. We are simply not which affects 80,000 jobs in the retail sector and 22 per in a position to say that they take up smoking because cent of the population who smoke. They are constantly of displays in shops. There is no evidence for that bombarded from one side or the other—if not the other than repeated assertion. We can produce a Government, then some health authority or whatever. collection of speech bubbles from kids who have been Let us hear from the noble Baroness. GC 401 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 402

Baroness O’Cathain: I thank the noble Lord for Lord Laird: On the question of employment, would giving way. I want to ask one question. This statistic of the noble Lord advocate that we retained capital 80,000 jobs depending on tobacco has already been punishment on the basis that it gives jobs to executioners? bounced around this Room. In fact, 5,000 jobs depend on tobacco, and 80,000 jobs are in the sector of retailing that sells tobacco along with about 20,000 Lord Stoddart of Swindon: That was a bit flippant, other product lines. wasn’t it? There was only one executioner and his assistant. We do not have capital punishment and I would not want it to be reintroduced. Lord Stoddart of Swindon: Indeed, that is what I It says on tobacco packets, “Smoking kills”, but said. Noble Lords— smoking does not kill everyone who smokes. Will the Minister confirm that 78 per cent of people who die Baroness Tonge: Before the noble Lord continues— not from smoking but from “smoking-related diseases” are over the age of 65? We have all got to die from something, you know. Lord Stoddart of Swindon: May I answer that question first? Baroness Howarth of Breckland: If you have watched your mother suffocate with emphysema, you will have a view about smoking–related diseases even in the Baroness Tonge: I suppose so. elderly.

4.45 pm Baroness Thornton: I echo the noble Baroness’s point of view in respect of my own mother. Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I was mentioning the tobacco retailers. Some noble Lords, particularly those Lord Stoddart of Swindon: If we are going to go who are members of new Labour, might be interested into personal experiences, I was born in the Rhondda to know that we have heard from the trade union valley and my father was a coal miner. I saw lots of UNITE. It does not support these clauses at all. It says people who were working down the mines suffering that: from emphysema, and many people suffered from it “The UK tobacco industry is highly profitable to the Treasury, who had never smoked in their lives. All sorts of generating tax revenue of £10 billion ... There are currently 6,500 things cause so-called smoking-related diseases. It is people working in the tobacco sector and … 80,000 people in the no good the Minister shaking her head. UK”. It says that exports are worth £984 million and, Baroness Thornton: My mother is not a coal miner—she “the illegal trade in tobacco products is costing the UK tax payer has never been down a coal mine in her life—but she and the public sector £4.3 billion” smoked for 50 years. There is no question that her per year. That is not from me but from a trade union condition now is related to the fact that she smoked that gives a lot of money to the Labour Party. It is for 50 years, which she bitterly regrets. worried, as it is entitled to be, about the jobs of its Lord Stoddart of Swindon: All right, if we are going members at a time when there is a very serious depression. into real personal experiences: my father smoked all We have to take these things into account. his life from the time that he was 13, all the time that he was fighting for this country and being a prisoner Baroness Tonge: This is really a point of order. I am of war in Germany. He smoked all his life: cigarettes, a relatively new Member of this House, and I seek pipe, cigars, anything you like to speak of. He died guidance from the Chair about what we are actually when he was 84. So he was all right. My grandfather debating. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, has withdrawn also smoked a pipe and cigarettes all his life; he died his amendment and therefore we are in a sort of limbo. when he was 93. All these personal experiences get us nowhere because people die from all sorts of diseases for all sorts of reasons. The Deputy Chairman of Committees: We are still I was going to ask the Minister when I was quoting debating the Question that Clause 19 stand part of the some statistics about people who die from smoking— Bill. before she shook her head—if she would confirm that that is not actually known. It is not put on a death Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I do not want to keep certificate whether people have died from smoking. the Committee for too much longer but, as I say, I was She will find that those figures are not clinical but assured that in Committee I would have plenty of time statistical. We should take those things into account. to make my points. It was the Leader of the House I am going to sit down because I can see that the who told me that. This is an important matter; a lot of Committee is getting very impatient and wants to get people have spoken on it, and we must speak it out, so on with its business. I want it to get on with its to speak. business as well. So, although I have stacks of things still to say, in order to respect the Committee and its wish to carry on, I will sit down. Lord Laird: Will the noble Lord give way? Noble Lords: Hear, hear. Lord Stoddart of Swindon: You are only delaying it. Clause 19 agreed. GC 403 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 404

quoted in the consultation document show that 89 per Amendment 86 cent of young people cite that they either buy or are Moved by Earl Howe given cigarettes by another person. Thus, proxy 86: After Clause 19, insert the following new Clause— purchasing, far from being uncommon, is the most serious component part of youth access to tobacco. “Purchase of tobacco on behalf of children The second reason given by the Government was that After section 7(2) of the Children and Young Persons Act the law would be difficult to enforce. Here it is true 1933 (c. 12) (sale of tobacco, etc, to persons under (eighteen)) insert— that the burden of evidence required to prosecute a proxy purchaser creates an enforcement challenge and “(2A) A person commits an offence if he buys or attempts to buy tobacco on behalf of an individual aged under 18. that there are barriers in the way of action on this (2B) Where a person is charged with an offence under subsection front, mainly to do with resources. (2A) it is a defence that he had not reason to suspect that the However, recent developments in the enforcement individual was aged under 18. of alcohol legislation show that it is possible and can (2C) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable be cost-effective. One example comes from the community on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the alcohol partnership approach that is currently being standard scale.”” trialled in parts of the country. In St Neots in Cambridgeshire, local agencies have been working with Earl Howe: I turn to an issue that I hope the retailers and focusing resources on deterring and detecting Minister will want to look at seriously—that is, how underage alcohol sales using a combination of the current law prohibiting the sale of tobacco to intelligence-led action against proxy sales and confiscation minors might be tightened up. Before speaking to the powers. As a result of this approach, a real reduction detail of the amendment, it is perhaps worth my in underage drinking in the town was achieved, and making a general point. The measures contained in the enforcement costs were no different from more the Bill are designed to bear down on the prevalence of standard enforcement approaches. smoking, particularly smoking by children. That is the Although a proposal to make proxy purchasing an main justification put forward for them, and the underlying offence was briefly debated by Members in another aim is of course wholly right in public health terms. place during the course of the Criminal Justice and However, both of the Bill’s main measures in this Immigration Bill, it was opposed by the Government. area—the ban on point-of-sale-displays and restrictions I do not believe that the issues have yet been fully on vending machines—impinge in one way or another debated—I am not aware that they have been debated on personal and commercial freedoms. in this House—and I strongly believe that such a The balance to be struck between public health measure would command public support. ACS recently and personal and commercial freedoms, and the commissioned an independent poll by GfK NOP, proportionality of the measures in the light of the where 92 per cent of those who responded supported evidence available, is where the debates tend to be the introduction of penalties for adults who supply centred. On point-of-sale displays in particular, as we tobacco to children. Knowingly buying tobacco for a have just discovered, it is a debate of some complexity. person who is legally too young to smoke is unarguably I contend that the arguments about balance and immoral and, I believe, should be illegal. The evidence proportionality are made more difficult if, in making available shows that it is one of the main routes by them, we cannot say that we have done as much as we which underage smokers get hold of tobacco products, can to make the current law work effectively. Parliament and that is why I believe that a strategy in this area that has made it illegal for cigarettes to be sold to anyone does not include a credible means of deterring adults under 18. It is perhaps too soon to tell how well or from supplying tobacco to children is both incomplete badly that law is working. However, Parliament has and likely to fail. I beg to move. not put in place measures that would back up and buttress that law and give it the best possible chance. Lord Walton of Detchant: I have the greatest admiration There are several things of that kind that could be and respect for the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the done, none of which impinges to any great degree on principles underlying the amendment he has proposed personal or commercial freedoms. I have picked on so elegantly are unexceptionable. My only concern one of those measures in this amendment, and it relates to the fact that, as he has suggested, to implement relates to proxy sales. When we consider the subject of a statute along these lines might ultimately be very underage smoking, we should remember one important difficult to police. But that does not mean that attempts fact, which is that one of the most likely ways for a should not be made to introduce legislation to protect young person to get hold of cigarettes is from adults. youngsters from other people who might buy cigarettes This is true both for their first ever cigarette and for on their behalf. underage regular smokers. I confess that I was somewhat surprised by his Currently there is no legal deterrent to adults who comments in the last debate that he recognised the purchase tobacco on behalf of young people and health hazards associated with smoking but was concerned supply it to them. It was therefore disappointing to see with issues relating to commercial freedom. I remember that in the Government’s consultation of last year, very well—I have already shared my personal smoking they stated that they are not minded to make it illegal history with the Committee—that when I became a to proxy purchase, and gave two reasons. The first medical student in 1941, the dean of medicine who reason was that there was little evidence that proxy was then a professor of anatomy advised all the medical purchasing is a common practice. That statement was students to smoke, particularly in the dissecting room, extremely puzzling. The Government’s own figures as to try and dispel the odours. GC 405 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 406

During the war all cigarettes went under the counter. responsibility; that is not the case in relation to tobacco. I was a regular smoker, as were all my colleagues, and There is a sensible drinking message but there is no none of us had the slightest difficulty in obtaining sensible smoking message. However, the amendment cigarettes even though they were not on display; our which proposes an offence of proxy purchase would friendly local newsagent sold them to us from under introduce a measure which holds good across both the counter. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent alcohol and tobacco. I believe it would command retailers from continuing to sell cigarettes. All it will broad support across a wide range of stakeholders, do is make it much more difficult for them to do so on from parents to retailers. the basis of displays which are likely to attract individuals. We have seen with the smoking ban, first in Scotland Having heard the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, I cannot and then more recently in England and Wales, that resist quoting from World Tobacco, the tobacco industry there is an interesting relationship between legislation journal, which stated in 1999: and culture change; no one now thinks it is right or “If your brand can no longer shout from billboards let alone normal to light up a cigarette in pubs or restaurants. A from the cinema screen … at least court smokers from the new offence of proxy purchase is now needed to help retailers’ shelf”. change the culture so that unscrupulous adults no That is an important point. However, the principles longer think it is either right or normal to go into underlying the amendment are worthy of warm support shops and buy cigarettes to pass on to children in the and I hope that the Government will give it a fair street. Perhaps this time the Government could be on wind. the front foot and not leave it to Scotland to try it first or to a Private Member’s Bill. The Government should give serious consideration to this measure, take the 5pm lead and bring it into the main body of the Bill. Baroness Coussins: I support the noble Earl’s amendment to create a new offence of proxy purchase. I do so because of my experience in campaigning for Baroness Howarth of Breckland: Although the noble the introduction of a similar offence in relation to Earl will know that I cannot support him in relation to alcohol when I was chief executive of the Portman displays or vending machines, and I do not see this Group, and from seeing the value of that offence in provision as a replacement, I support the amendment action once it was brought into law in the Licensing and ask the Government closely to consider it. If the (Young Persons) Act 2000, which came into force in only argument against it is that it is difficult to police, January 2001. However, it is relevant to add that in many other things are difficult to police but we ensure Scotland proxy purchase for alcohol has been an that we do our best. It is very difficult in some areas of offence since 1976. the country that I know well to police the distribution of certain drugs, but we would not say that because of Comparisons with alcohol legislation are relevant that we would fail to try to do so. to the tobacco issue. If I remember correctly, the proxy purchase proposal on alcohol began life in We know that LACORS, which is the organisation another place as a Private Member’s Bill, although in with responsibility for policing those areas, would like the end, as the noble Earl said, the Government supported to combine the policing of tobacco and alcohol because it. One of the most compelling parts of the evidence the two are not unrelated when young women are which supported the offence in relation to alcohol was trying to find someone to make purchases for them on a research finding that showed that the people most the street. I therefore ask the Government to look likely to approach strangers in the street and ask them carefully at this, although I hope that the noble Earl to buy alcohol for them were 13 year-old girls. I am understands that I see it as a package rather than a not aware of any parallel evidence in relation to tobacco, replacement. but I bet 13 year-old girls are the group most likely to approach strangers in the street. Those young girls, of Lord Faulkner of Worcester: Not for the first time, I course, will expose themselves to all manner of other find myself agreeing with everything that the noble dangers as well as to the dangers of smoking. Baroness, Lady Howarth, said. In particular, I endorse If an offence of proxy purchase was a good idea in her point that this is part of the much wider approach relation to alcohol, how much more so is it a good idea on tobacco control contained in the Bill. It is in no in relation to tobacco? I hope, for example, that, as sense a stand-alone or alternative measure. I certainly with alcohol, it would trigger a large number of awareness welcome the noble Earl’s determination to do something and enforcement campaigns—there are already dozens about young people being able to get hold of cigarettes of these all over the UK in relation to alcohol—involving and this is a way to do that. I must tease him slightly the police, PCSOs and trading standards officers working because there is even less research evidence to support together to raise awareness of the law and to enforce it. the view that this would work than there is for the Of course, comparisons between alcohol and tobacco proposition on point-of-sale display, which we have are not always, or even often, justified and relevant. I already spent so much time debating in Committee. support the proposals in the Bill to restrict some of the If this is part of a comprehensive package which marketing freedoms around tobacco, but were they includes banning point-of-sale material and vending made in relation to alcohol I would not support them. machines, plain packaging and the licensing of tobacco, That is not to say that there is not sometimes a need which is the subject of Amendment 106 to be moved for legislation in relation to alcohol, not least for a by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, we may be legal purchase age, but with alcohol there is a genuine able to do something about the problem of young role for education to promote moderation and people and smoking. This is part of the approach. GC 407 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 408

[LORD FAULKNER OF WORCESTER] more frequently. The Criminal Justice and Immigration It would be much easier to enforce if the noble Earl Act 2008 increased the sanctions against retailers, for would agree that licensing of tobacco retailing should example, who persistently sell tobacco to under age be introduced under the Bill, but it is certainly worth people. We are working with local authorities and giving it a go. retailer representatives to ensure that the law is understood, retailers are given guidance and support and trading standards officers are able to take action against Baroness Golding: I also support the amendment. I irresponsible retailers who persistently continue to sell chair CitizenCard, which is a proof-of-age card mostly tobacco to children. funded by the tobacco industry—not by the Government—and by other industries that contribute Better enforcement of existing legislation is, at the to the sale of goods such as alcohol. The provision moment, likely to be more effective than adding another would be a very good thing. At the moment, shopkeepers offence which is difficult to enforce. However, a similar who belong to our scheme—almost 2 million proof-of-age amendment on proxy purchasing of tobacco was debated cards have been sold—keep a diary on the desk. If a in this House in March 2008 and was withdrawn child whom they think is under age comes to them and following a debate on the issue. The Government then asks to buy tobacco and they refuse because they have promised to keep the position under review; we are no proof of age, they keep a record that they have doing so and I make that promise again. We would refused the child. However, if an adult comes into the certainly welcome evidence on the issue of proxy shop at the same time, buys the cigarettes and passes purchasing of tobacco. them to the child, the tobacconist is then tarred with Although I am sure that noble Lords would agree the same brush. Many small shop keepers would welcome that reducing children’s access to tobacco is extremely the provision and it would certainly help them with important, at the moment we believe that creating an the very difficult problem of controlling the sale of offence for proxy purchasing would be difficult and tobacco to underage children. unenforceable.

Baroness Thornton: Amendment 86 would make it Lord Campbell-Savours: I cannot understand what illegal for adults to buy tobacco on behalf of children, my noble friend means by “under review”. Surely, if a practice known as proxy purchasing. proposed new subsection (2A) were inserted into the The noble Earl’s intention behind the amendment, law, a person would know they were committing an to reduce the number of underage people who can offence if they walked into a shop and attempted to access tobacco, is of course completely commendable buy tobacco on behalf of an individual under the age and we agree with it. We all agree that it is wrong for of 18. Irrespective of whether they were prosecuted, adults to supply children with cigarettes. It undermines they would know that they were committing an offence. the law and encourages young people to experiment Surely that would affect their conduct in deciding on with and take up smoking, with all the long-term whether they were going to enter the shop and buy the health consequences that we have discussed. cigarettes for the person under 18. So I cannot see what has to be kept under review there. At the moment, the Government feel that the law must be enforceable and proxy purchasing is a difficult offence to pursue. This is partly confirmed by our Baroness Thornton: The issue that we are keeping experience of the rarity of prosecutions for proxy under review relates, first, to seeing how the new purchasing of alcohol, although I take on board the sanctions being introduced on 1 April will work. Also, broader points made by the noble Baroness, Lady 49 per cent of children are given cigarettes by their Coussins. Proxy purchasing for alcohol is not currently friends. This involves children and young adults buying undertaken by local authorities but by the police. For a packet of cigarettes and sharing them with their local authorities to implement proxy purchasing for friends. This is another issue that would need to be tobacco, they would need formal authorisation to resolved if this proposal became legislation. We would undertake surveillance. This would therefore place a have to be careful not to criminalise those young burden on local authorities requiring them to observe people rather than trying to enable them, as the noble shops to monitor sales and subsequent provision of Baroness, Lady Coussins, said, to make responsible tobacco to young people. Furthermore, other means choices and decisions. of obtaining cigarettes are more commonly used by As I have said, we are keeping this under review and underage people. As we have discussed, in 2006 almost I hope, in the light of these explanations, that the 80 per cent of children aged between 11 and 15 bought noble Earl will agree to withdraw his amendment. their own cigarettes from a shop. New sanctions against offenders will come into force on 1 April 2009, which will mean that magistrates 5.15 pm will have the power to impose orders prohibiting the Lord Stoddart of Swindon: Before he does so, I have sale of tobacco for periods of up to a year by persons a couple of short questions for the Minister. First, will or shops that are found to have sold tobacco to people she remind me what the penalty is? Is it number five on under 18. The Government have made additional the scale? resources available to local authorities through LACORS for the enforcement of tobacco-related legislation. These additional resources are to enable local trading Baroness Thornton: I will write to the noble Lord standards officers to carry out tobacco test purchases with the details. GC 409 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 410

Lord Stoddart of Swindon: So we do not really Clause 20 : Power to prohibit or restrict sales from know what we are talking about. vending machines

Baroness Thornton: I know what the noble Lord is Amendment 87 talking about. The answer is £2,500. I did not recall it straight away and I apologise to him for that. Moved by Lord Crisp 87: Clause 20, page 25, line 3, leave out “may” and insert Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I am glad that she was “shall” well briefed. My other question arises from what the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, said. She told us Lord Crisp: I shall speak also to the other amendments about her experience with the alcohol industry where in the group. The purpose of most of these amendments she said it is already an offence for anyone to procure is to prohibit the sale of tobacco in vending machines drinks for a person under the age of 18. What is the in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. If the evidence of prosecutions for such an offence relating Government are not minded to go quite as far as to alcohol? prohibiting vending machines, four of the amendments provide that they can be prohibited with a small number of exceptions. That is the purpose of these Baroness Thornton: I said in my remarks that amendments. I declare an interest as a council member prosecutions for proxy purchasing of alcohol are rare. of the British Heart Foundation, from whom I have I will endeavour to get the actual figures for the noble received briefing, but it should be said that I have Lord, but these are rare offences. The noble Baroness, received briefing material from those on both sides of Lady Coussins, made the powerful point that the the argument. I should also say where I am coming introduction of the legislation allowed a large amount from: as a former Permanent Secretary, I understand of education and information to be made available the Minister’s dilemma in seeking the correct balance and a campaign to take place on that issue, which was between the rights of individuals to do something that beneficial. That campaign could not take place in this is legal, the rights of businesses to carry on a legal instance because, as she pointed out, as there is no safe trade and the Government’s wish to help people to level for smoking. give up smoking and to stop children from purchasing cigarettes. It is a difficult balance and part of my Earl Howe: This has been a useful short debate, and argument is that I do not think that it is right on this I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in support of occasion. We are in danger of coming to a poor the amendment. Naturally, I find the Minister’s reply compromise rather than a good balance. disappointing, although I thank her for her thoughtful Vending machines are designed for convenience so response. I shall consider carefully what she has said. that people are able to purchase goods, quite often I am sure she would agree that we are after a without supervision—indeed, for some of the goods cultural change in the area of youth smoking. Creating they purchase in this way, they may not wish to be parity between alcohol and tobacco in the way that the supervised. It would be easy to think that they would law treats proxy purchasing would send out a powerful be ideal for children to use if they wanted to purchase message to children, parents and, for that matter, all cigarettes without being seen by those supervising adults alike, but it would also rebalance the burden of them. The figures show that that view is right. One per responsibility in this area. When it comes to enforcement, cent of the tobacco market comes through vending retailers are naturally in the front line. It is up to them machines, so it is a small but material amount. A 2007 to enforce the age limit for tobacco sales, and they run survey showed that 17 per cent of children between the risk of legal sanctions if they fail to do so. If the the ages of 11 and 15 used vending machines as their Government get their way, retailers will also be landed usual source of supply. That translates to one in six with the burden of enforcing the ban on displays at the children, and thus 46,000 children between the ages of point of sale. To make it illegal for an adult to buy 11 and 15. cigarettes or tobacco on behalf of a minor would tackle the demand side of the problem by putting a Lord Naseby: Could the noble Lord remind the legal onus on the purchaser, not just the seller. Committee of the location of vending machines? Is it I accept the gentle teasing of the noble Lord, Lord not a fact that 99 per cent of them are located in Faulkner, about research. I simply argue that this is a licensed premises? blatant loophole in our existing criminal law and that that is the difference between this proposal and others Lord Crisp: May I come back to that in a moment? in the Bill. The figure is not quite as high as 99 per cent, but it is I say to the Minister: let us look at simple measures substantial. That is partly why we have a muddle here like this one to buttress the current law before we get because children actually do find it relatively easy to stuck into other measures that are inherently more get access to vending machines. difficult to agree on. I hope that the Government really will keep the matter under review. For my part, I As I have said, 17 per cent of children use vending undertake to reflect carefully on what the Minister has machines as their usual source of supply. A survey in said before the next stage of the Bill. I beg leave to 2008 showed that 5 per cent of adults had used a withdraw the amendment. vending machine in the past six months. So there is a simple argument that these machines make it much Amendment 86 withdrawn. more convenient for children to purchase cigarettes, GC 411 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 412

[LORD CRISP] Lord Naseby: The noble Lord said that perhaps but that if they were not there selling tobacco, they other products can be put in them, but they cannot. would not disadvantage many adults who in any case They are specialist machines produced by special have other sources of supply. That is the major part of manufacturers. I shall cover the exact numbers when the argument, but I want to make a number of subsidiary I come to speak to my amendment but there are points in support and to look at the level of what the 200 private cigarette vending machine businesses noble Earl, Lord Howe, has described as the “collateral employing 1,000 people. I suppose that another 1,000 damage” of introducing such a prohibition. on the dole does not matter but I happen to think that First, this would be in line with every other bit of that is quite important. government legislation dealing with products that are banned for children. It would be ridiculous if alcohol Lord Crisp: I am not disguising the fact that vending was available in vending machines; we would find that machine manufacturers would suffer under this quite extraordinary. There is some comfort for the amendment but I do not think that small businesses noble Baroness in that every other aspect of UK would, and I do not think that the tobacco industry legislation treats products not available to children in can say whether it would suffer under the amendment. the same way. We know also that 22 countries in Europe do not permit the sale of tobacco in vending Lord Faulkner of Worcester: Does the noble Lord machines. Again I agree entirely with the noble Earl, agree that there is nothing particularly unique about Lord Howe, but that is not a reason for us to do it. the shape of a tobacco packet? One can think of loads However, if the body of opinion suggests that people of products that could equally easily be sold from are not allowing cigarettes to be sold in vending machines, those machines. There is nothing special about them the burden is on us to show why we are different, not being tobacco vending machines; they are vending why we would be the same if we did what other people machines that could sell something else. in Europe do. The third point is that public opinion would probably Lord Crisp: I am grateful for that intervention. be with a prohibition. Again, like the Minister, I am Perhaps I may move on to say that this is a somewhat somewhat suspicious of surveys of public opinion. muddled compromise. The obvious thing would be to Nevertheless, the figures I see here show that 65 per say, “Let’s try and make sure that only adults and not cent of the general public would support a prohibition children have access to vending machines”. That would on the sale of tobacco in vending machines. In other be a very sensible route, and it seems that it is being words, the public are two to one in favour of such a suggested in two ways. One, as the noble Lord, Lord prohibition. So there are many reasons why I would Naseby, has already said, is to put the machines in encourage the noble Baroness to be brave enough to places where children are not allowed—that is, in bars. put this prohibition in the Bill. After all, she can The figures that I have suggest that something like simply say to the public without appearing as though 75 per cent of vending machines are in pubs and the she is a nanny, or whatever else she may be accused of, others are in a range of other facilities, some of which “We are prohibiting the sale of cigarettes in vending are licensed premises. Nevertheless, we note from the machines because, although relatively few adults use figures that at the moment 17 per cent of children get them, they are a significant source of supply for their supply of cigarettes from vending machines. children. Adults have other ways of obtaining cigarettes; children will find it much more difficult”. That seems to be a very straightforward argument. Lord Naseby: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Let us look at the collateral damage. I started by Lord. In the survey to which he referred, the children talking about vending machines as being about were asked where they “usually” purchased and where convenience, and I think that they are about convenience they “often” purchased their cigarettes. They were rather than liberty. I do not think that the Government given a choice of 14 locations. The total number of are infringing people’s liberty by prohibiting the sale answers to those questions amounted to 227 per cent, of tobacco from vending machines. It is hard to argue because inevitably some people gave more than one that buying a smaller packet of cigarettes at a higher answer to some questions. So, if my maths are correct, price from a machine rather than having to go and get adjusting downwards to 100 per cent the gross figure it from a man or a woman at a bar is a pretty of 17 per cent would become 7.5 per cent. Furthermore, fundamental liberty. the noble Lord keeps referring to the word “usually” but the word on the questionnaire was “often”. I think The commercial arguments, in general, do not look that we should be accurate in relation to these surveys. very strong either. Presumably adults will switch to other sources and that may benefit the small newsagents 5.30 pm and traders, although I have seen no evidence as to what the effect will be on overall sales of tobacco. Lord Crisp: I do not think that my argument depends Therefore, it is difficult to judge what the effect will be on 17 per cent being the precise figure. My argument is on tobacco companies, although I appreciate that they that many children are able to, and currently do, will want as many outlets and opportunities as possible purchase cigarettes from vending machines wherever to put their product in front of the customer. I imagine they happen to be. that the real losers will be those who manufacture and The Department of Health, in association with maintain vending machines, but perhaps they have business and commercial bodies, has issued guidance other products that they can put in them. that recommends that vending machines should be I come to where I think we are at a compromise— located within the sight of a supervisory person at the GC 413 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 414 bar. That does not seem to be borne out by colleagues Lord Naseby: There is no point in having a debate from the British Heart Foundation who did a short in Committee when we both refer to the same survey pub crawl around this area last Tuesday or Wednesday and one refers to returns of 227 per cent which must and identified two pubs within walking distance of be apportioned—the noble Baroness is a scientist—down here where the vending machine was not in the line of to 100 per cent. Therefore it is 7.5 per cent. Furthermore, sight of someone behind the bar. If the Minister is she not encouraged that that is one-third down on wishes to check this out for herself, it is much nearer the previous survey in 2004? It is too high, I agree, but than Saskatoon. As things stand at the moment, the let us have the right figure. guidance does not seem to be working. In a busy pub with five doors and which is crowded at different times Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I am delighted to hear of the day, it is quite easy to see how children, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, say that it is too high. those who look 15 or 16 rather than 10 or 11, can get On that, we certainly agree. I do not think that we in and get cigarettes. Whatever the precise figure is, should start hurling data at each other across the there is sufficient evidence that a number of children Committee any more than has already happened. do that. We would never contemplate alcohol or fireworks The other route to curb this is to have a system of being sold in vending machines. Vending machines are an age ID card. I do not have any hard figures but we easily accessed by youngsters. In an exercise carried probably underestimate the skill of our children if we out in Solihull in September 2008 where a 16 year-old think they will not be able to get around it. This has was commissioned, if you like, by the council to see been introduced in a number of countries, including what could happen, the 16 year-old was able to buy Germany—there is also an article on it in the Irish 100 cigarettes from five different cigarette vending Times—but some surveys suggest that these kinds of machines in Knowle and Solihull town centre without mechanisms generally do not work. However, I do not being challenged. In Bournemouth, trading standards want to put too much weight on those surveys because officers carried out a similar undercover operation they are not yet complete. and found that a 15 year-old could buy cigarettes from In order to preserve vending machines we are trying seven out of eight vending machines without being to set up systems which will not work very effectively challenged. In one case, the owner even helped the boy and will have loopholes that will allow children still to to find some change. be able to purchase cigarettes. We are making life much more complicated than we need to when a Our main concern must be for the long-term health simple solution is available to the Minister: that is, to of young people, the under-18s. This move would cut prohibit the sale of tobacco in cigarette machines. off a ready source, an easy source for them to access Adults who are disadvantaged can easily go somewhere tobacco, which has a high addictive potential and will else, and that may well benefit the small corner shop. therefore hook them for the rest of their lives. It will She does not need to be brave to go down this route not harm the small shop keeper, as has already been because the amendment is in line with all other government said. In fact, I would have expected small shop keepers legislation on this kind of issue, in line with much of to be flooding the Committee with welcome for the what our European neighbours do and, so far as we amendment. As has been said, those machines can can tell, in line with public opinion. I beg to move. take boxes of a certain size into which anything could be put. We should not have this debate, but, for the record, contraception being more readily available to Baroness Finlay of Leadoff: I strongly support the youngsters to avoid unplanned pregnancy would certainly amendment for several reasons. It is slightly worrying have my support; but having tobacco in those machines that the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, is supporting as a does not. good thing the findings of a survey which found that children under the age of 18 are smoking. I do not think anyone is arguing that we should deregulate Lord Monson: The noble Lord who moved the smoking to include under-18s. The problem is that amendment asserted that adults who wanted to buy when under-18s start smoking, the addictive potential cigarettes could easily get them from somewhere other is extremely high. That is precisely why the tobacco than vending machines. That is by no means always companies have a great interest in very young people the case. Many cheaper hotels, chain hotels of a type smoking. such as travel lodges—not merely those but other, The Minister referred earlier to the report from the larger hotels in city centres that cannot afford the Royal College of Physicians that compared the addiction heavy overtime costs associated with keeping the reception factor of nicotine to that of other drugs. Nicotine desk or the bar manned all through the night—have came top when compared with heroin, cocaine, alcohol vending machines because they often effectively close and caffeine in terms of dependence among users; down completely between 9 pm and 7 am. Children do equal top in terms of difficulty in obtaining abstinence; not normally go into hotels to look for vending machines. equal top in terms of tolerance, that is, the need for a Noble Lords supporting the amendment should reflect higher and higher dose to get the same effect; and top on that fact and consider compromising by accepting in terms of its serious effects on society through the excellent Amendment 90 in the name of the noble deaths from cigarette-related diseases. Earl, Lord Howe. The point made by my noble friend Lord Crisp is that although vending machines account for only 1 Lord Campbell-Savours: I want to argue a very per cent of all sales, they account for 17 per cent of all different case, which has little to do with children and sales to the under-18s. a lot more to do with adults and vending machines. GC 415 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 416

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] access of vending machines. We all know what it is like I had my last cigarette 24 hours before I went into when you are trying to give up chocolate and it is there Saint Bartholomew’s Hospital in London with a tumour on the station. That is true of cigarettes, too. on the lung in 1996. I lost half my lung capacity, which meant that three nodes were lost during the course of the operation. Baroness O’Cathain: The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, said that he had seen the report in the Irish Times. The I mention that because I spent four years desperately issue was that vending machines were being changed trying to stop, lying to friends, ever denying that I was to operate with tokens. The study noted that in 79 per smoking, desperate to buy cigarettes in small quantities, cent of premises where the vending machines were which I could not. An amendment may turn up on token operated, thereby requiring the purchaser to Report that deals with the ability to buy cigarettes in buy tokens first from a staff member, minors—that is small quantities, to which I would be sympathetic under-18s—were prevented from buying cigarettes, because of my problem: whenever I wanted to buy any while in only 24 per cent of premises where machines cigarettes, I had to buy 10. I think that we should were coin-operated were minors stopped from buying make it as difficult as possible for people to buy tobacco. Although this is not in the amendment, perhaps cigarettes, especially those people who are trying to at Report we should bring in an amendment to make stop. I remember going out at midnight or one o’clock sure that vending machines can be token operated. in the morning, getting in my car and driving around That would stop it. the town looking for any source of cigarettes that I could purchase to deal with my problem—the problem of desperately trying to stop. Baroness Tonge: I support the amendment, but I I am not alone. I have talked to many people over confess that as a child I was in love with vending the years who have tried to stop. We all know people machines. I do not know whether any noble Lords who are trying to stop. We buy patches; we buy all can remember those rusting and out-of-use Cadbury kinds of things. The availability of cigarettes in machines vending machines on railway stations. My mother makes it very difficult for those who want to stop, used to say that before the war you could get a bar of because invariably they find out where they are. I chocolate out of those machines for a penny. I do not would firmly support any amendment to restrict know whether that gave me a lifelong aversion to war, availability to people who are in the position I was in but I certainly remember vending machines very at that time. fondly. The love affair continued into my medical student days when often the only cigarettes available Baroness Howarth of Breckland: I, too, support the late at night, when one had finished work, were from amendment. I always find it slightly illogical that we a vending machine. They were usually Embassy, and have reached a point where there is no smoking in they were awful, but they were from a vending public places, yet still there are vending machines in machine somewhere in a dark back street. So I hotels, restaurants and pubs where you cannot smoke support what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- what you have bought from those vending machines. Savours said. If you want to give up, you can always That means that you will have to go out anyway, and find a cigarette somewhere, and a vending machine is there is usually a corner shop not that far away whose usually the source. business could be enhanced. I support the amendment because children, as we have heard, find it very easy to get cigarettes from vending machines. I should add another point; I knew Lord Monson: I correct the noble Baroness. It is a teenager who used to brag about how he could get perfectly permissible to smoke in hotel rooms if the two packets for the price of one, because he was good hotel designates certain rooms as smoking rooms. at operating the drawer of the vending machine. He never taught me how to do it, as I had given up Baroness Howarth of Breckland: I used the phrase smoking long before then. Young teenagers find “public places”. I am also concerned about age-verification vending machines a challenge, and they brag about systems, because those who say that we can deal with how they can get stuff out of them. There is no need. the matter by providing ID cards should know that ID If an adult wants to get his cigarettes and it is late at checks are still not being carried out stringently enough night, our shops do not close at 5.30 any more. There on alcohol sales. According to Home Office figures, in are even shops that operate for 24 hours. You can 2004, 22 per cent of 10 to 17 year-olds who had drunk always get whatever you want at any time of day. alcohol had obtained it from bars and pubs; 34 per There is therefore no excuse to have something that is cent of on-trade venues failed to check ID cards for so dangerous to people’s health available from a young people. If a significant number of under-18s are vending machine. still able to obtain alcohol from pubs and bars, it is I support the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, in her highly questionable that an ID-based age verification remarks about condoms. I well remember, as a local system will be sufficiently foolproof to stop underage councillor, trying to introduce a condom vending machine tobacco sales from vending machines. in our local college. The opposition to that was I also support the noble Lord in relation to adults. tremendous: it would pollute our youth, it would Although I tend to concentrate on children, many make them ill; I do not know what else a condom people have talked to me about their wish to give up vending machine would do to them. But, of course, smoking to enhance their health, but they are perpetually cigarette machines were easily available all over the faced by temptation through displays and the ease of borough. I rest my case. GC 417 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 418

5.45 pm notwithstanding the invitation from the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, to go on a pub crawl to see how these Lord Walton of Detchant: WheneverIamableto work. escape from your Lordships’ House, I thoroughly enjoy playing a game of golf. I know four golf clubs in north The groups of amendments would make a number Northumberland where there are vending machines in of changes and I shall take each in turn. First, a the clubhouse, freely accessible to the children who number of them would create an absolute duty on the come and play golf. There is no way any control could appropriate Ministers, compelling them to ban tobacco be exercised on the purchase of cigarettes from those vending machines outright. We have amendments, machines because there is no way that the steward of which will be discussed shortly, to remove the power to the club could possibly be able to see all the time what ban vending machines, and amendments that would was happening at the machines. The clubs sell cigarettes simply ban them. We believe that at the moment we even though it is no longer possible to smoke within should take a middle road. It may help if I explain the clubhouse because of the recent legislation, and I how we intend to use the powers in England. have seen many children purchasing cigarettes from those machines. We agree with the principle of the amendments—that Although I put my name to Amendment 92, I we must prevent underage sales from tobacco machines. believe that the only solution to this problem is the I was struck by the contribution of my noble friend total ban of the sale of tobacco products from vending Lord Campbell-Savours, who said that there was also machines. That is something to which I would give my a need to support adults who try to give up smoking, warmest possible support. notwithstanding the love affair of the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, with vending machines. We intend to bring in regulations to restrict access to vending machines Lord Faulkner of Worcester: I have also added my by children and young people under 18, while maintaining name to nearly all the amendments tabled by the noble this source of cigarettes for adults. We intend these Lord, Lord Crisp, and I commend him for the way in restrictions to apply from 2011. However, we will which he introduced the amendment earlier. This is review the effectiveness of the new requirements over one of those cases where the Committee wishes to go a a period of two years following implementation. If it little further than the Government seem ready to, and I appears that restrictions are not successful in preventing rather hope that when my noble friend reports back to underage purchases, we will reconsider moving to ban her colleagues on how this debate has gone today—and the sale of tobacco products from vending machines how I suspect it will go again on Report—the Government altogether. will be willing to look at the possibility of a complete The approach that I have outlined to the Committee ban, rather than this halfway house of a system of clearly requires both options to be available—for tokens, age restrictions for the issuing of them and regulations either to impose requirements or to prohibit so on. tobacco vending machines. In this respect, therefore, it As other speakers have told the Committee, children is vital that the powers remain discretionary, but I are extraordinarily ingenious in getting around technical assure noble Lords that, as a minimum, powers to obstacles that to most of us would be insuperable. I regulate vending machines will certainly be used. have no doubt that the copying of tokens and the begging and borrowing of them would be a great sport The noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, referred to for young people who wanted to get their cigarettes token-operated machines. In determining how to take from vending machines in future. It would be so much forward regulations to require age-check mechanisms easier if we followed the practice of 22 other countries— for tobacco vending machines, we will explore which is about to include Scotland as well—and say international evidence to compare the effectiveness that cigarette vending machines have had their day and practices of different methods of age restriction. and we do not want them any more. As the noble Baroness mentioned, a number of European member states have introduced age-restriction mechanisms on vending machines, and we shall seek to learn from Baroness Thornton: Amendments 87, 89, 91 and 96, their experience to ensure that our age restrictions are ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, would applied effectively in preventing underage sales. make a number of changes to the provisions in Clause 20 relating to the regulation of tobacco vending Amendments 92 and 100 would add explicit powers machines in England and Wales. With one exception, for regulations to make exemptions from the prohibition Amendments 97 to 103 would make equivalent changes of vending machines. If the aim is to exempt certain to mirror them in Clause 21, relating to the regulation types of vending machine, or certain types of premises of tobacco vending machines in Northern Ireland. where they are located, then the amendments are not Since those groups have the same effect on Clauses 20 needed. New Section 3A(7) in Clause 20 already allows and 21, I will speak to them all. us to make exemptions in regulations for particular cases, should we decide that that is appropriate. The main effect would be to compel the Government to prohibit tobacco vending machines, as outlined by Currently we do not see the case for any exemptions my noble friend in his last contribution. In this instance, but we do not rule them out. In determining how to and at the moment, we believe that we need to take a take forward the detailed requirements for age-check proportionate approach, giving vending machine operators mechanisms, we will seek the opinions of stakeholders, and owners an opportunity to prevent underage such as the National Association of Cigarette Machine sales before prohibiting tobacco sales altogether— Operators, and we will listen and give serious consideration GC 419 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 420

[BARONESS THORNTON] last-resort action for trading standards officers to to any case that is made for exemptions—for example, apply for when they have exhausted other avenues premises that are open only to those over the age such as training and guidance. The aim of the system of 18. is to stop underage sales of tobacco. I note that Amendment 90 is due to be discussed We believe that it is appropriate to include breaches next and that that touches on this issue. We see practical of the new offence relating to vending machines because difficulties here but perhaps we should defer discussion clearly a breach of a requirement aimed at preventing until the noble Earl, Lord Howe, moves his amendment. underage sales is relevant. Such a breach is highly likely to have resulted in sales actually being made to Next come Amendments 95 and 103. These create young people under 18. For those reasons, I cannot duties on appropriate Ministers to consult persons accept the amendment and I hope that the noble Lord likely to be affected by the regulations before making will feel able to withdraw it. them. I am happy to agree that open consultation is an important principle and I am pleased to be able to give reassurance on this. However, I wonder why it is felt Lord Crisp: I thank the noble Baroness for her necessary to consult when the other amendments would reply. I understand that she is being cautious in reaching do away with tobacco vending machines altogether. In a rather poor compromise rather than going for full that case, what would we consult about? prohibition straight away. Frankly, I do not understand The Government will work with trade bodies, why she feels she needs to do that. It does not seem to enforcement organisations and other stakeholders to me that it is in the interests of small shop keepers. It is inform the development of secondary legislation. We not in the interests of smokers, as the noble Lord, then intend to conduct a full three-month formal Lord Campbell-Savours, said. As someone who has public consultation on draft regulations following Royal given up smoking at least 20 times—for the past Assent. This would give business both certainty and 20 years, successfully—I understand precisely that having ample preparation time by laying regulations as early cigarettes available in a bar makes it too convenient to as possible and, in any event, well before the first get hold of them. Further, it does not seem to prevent commencement dates due in 2011. underage people getting hold of cigarettes. In England, officials in the Department of Health I come back to the point made by the noble Baroness, are already working with their colleagues in the Lady O’Cathain, and the article from the Irish Times Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory which she has just handed to me. Restrictions introduced Reform on arrangements for these initial discussions to stop children gaining access to cigarettes and vending to take place. In Northern Ireland, the Department of machines may work in the first instance, but we Health, Social Services and Public Safety also intends underestimate children. They will rapidly learn to get to carry out a full three-month formal public consultation round those restrictions, however complicated we make on the draft regulations and is fully committed to them. The normal lures of the market economy will engaging with key stakeholders on the implementation apply. I would not be surprised if children soon began of the proposed new measures. to trade in tokens in playgrounds and schools. That is what always happens in these situations. We will get In recognition of the importance of these measures, into an escalating arms race, as it were, introducing all regulations relating to vending machines in England, ever more complicated methods to try to stop children Wales or Northern Ireland would be subject to approval using these machines, and children will get a cracking by affirmative resolution of Parliament, the National education in learning how to get round the restrictions Assembly for Wales or the Northern Ireland Assembly, we introduce. Therefore, I do not see the point in the so ensuring an appropriate opportunity for scrutiny caution. I hope that the noble Baroness will reconsider and debate. it between now and Report. Having said all that, I beg Lastly, I come to Amendment 96, which is the leave to withdraw the amendment. exception. It applies only to Clause 20 and has no Amendment 87 withdrawn. mirror in Clause 21 in relation to Northern Ireland. This amendment would remove subsection (2), which Lord Stoddart of Swindon: Before we go further, I makes a breach of the regulations on tobacco vending forgot that I was a retired member of UNITE when I machines a “tobacco offence” for the purposes of quoted from its brief, which I believe other Members restricted premises and restricted sales orders. I understand of the Committee have received. that if we have no power to impose requirements, this provision may appear unnecessary. However, it would Baroness Thornton: I propose that the Committee still be needed in respect of any breach of a future adjourn for 10 minutes and that we reconvene at prohibition on tobacco vending machines, particularly 6.10 pm. if there are exemptions to an outright ban. 6pm These orders are part of a new system of “negative licensing” which aims to tackle those retailers who Sitting suspended. persistently sell tobacco to underage people. We will 6.10 pm discuss this system in further detail when we discuss Amendment 106 concerning positive licensing. Suffice it to say for now that these orders may be applied to Amendment 88 those retailers shown to have made underage sales at Moved by Lord Naseby least three times over a period of two years. This is a 88: Clause 20, page 25, line 4, leave out “prohibiting or” GC 421 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 422

Lord Naseby: Bearing in mind the debate we have people frequently have access to them. It is a clear just had, I can be relatively brief on my amendment. It means whereby the law on sales to minors can be states that vending machines should be regulated, not circumvented, and I support the proposals to regulate prohibited. I have two key points to add to what was in this area. said in that debate. First, I, too, will welcome the day What I do not support, however, is preventing adult when no young people smoke. I congratulate the smokers from purchasing cigarettes from vending Government; the percentage of young people smoking machines if they wish to do so. Vending machines are is falling. I quoted from the survey that showed that an expensive way of buying cigarettes but it should be between 2004 and 2006 the incidence of young people open to an adult smoker to use this route. I do not had fallen by one-third. That is good progress, although want to detain the Committee by dwelling on the further progress is needed. Conversely—and I find this ground so ably covered by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, worrying, as I mentioned in my earlier speech, and my and my noble friend in the last group of amendments, noble friend on the Front Bench has mentioned it—the but there are some 70,000 vending machines in England, main sources for those young people who still smoke Wales and Northern Ireland, most of them in licensed are other people and illicit buying from people who premises such as pubs and clubs, and there is a voluntary have smuggled cigarettes in and are selling them off code which is supposed to ensure that machines are cheap at boot fairs and so on. If the Government want located in areas that are supervised and monitored to to reduce smoking among our young people still further, prevent them being accessed by those who are under those two sources have to be tackled. My noble friend age. That code is clearly not adequate for the purpose; has put forward an amendment in relation to adults we know that many young people buy from vending buying on behalf of young people. We have talked machines. Quite how many is a matter for debate but about alcohol; that is a key area that the Minister the impact assessment to the consultation concludes needs to take seriously. The second area, smuggling that about 7.5 per cent of schoolchildren often obtain and illicit supplies, needs to be cracked down on by cigarettes from machines. That is not an acceptable Her Majesty’s Customs. state of affairs and it is clear that more needs to be Secondly, can regulation work? That was the done. implication of the Minister’s response to the previous More has been done in terms of enforcement penalties amendment, and that is encouraging. No one in the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 and suggests that this whole thing is working beautifully the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008, on the ground but it was interesting that here, in but there need to be additional measures to make it London, Trading Standards carried out a vigorous even harder for young people to access tobacco from enforcement action. It has an intensive programme of these machines. The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, referred activities, including letters and personal visits, aimed to the technological means by which this could be at those premises whose compliance with underage achieved, in particular ID cards. I understand there legislation was poor. The organisation then went back are also ID coin systems and remote control. I am not after a period of time to check whether or not there qualified to judge whether these systems are likely to was compliance from those sources and, quite work well enough to achieve the desired purpose of remarkably, it got a 100 per cent compliance rate. If eliminating illegal sales, but they are certainly likely to you have good, strict regulation you can get make an impact. ID cards, for example, are in use in a compliance, and you can make it difficult for those number of other countries. who do not comply. There was a similar story in The Government have stated, and the Minister has Wales. Obviously other parts of the country are repeated today, that they intend to make regulations, failing, and I suggest to the Government that it is high to take effect in 2011, which would introduce age- time that they cracked down on those local restriction mechanisms, and these regulations would authorities that are not putting the same energy into be given two years in which to prove themselves. If this that London and Wales are. after that time they have not done so and underage I look to the department for a proportionate sales from machines persist, the Government reserve response and to see the regulations being enforced the right to regulate for a complete ban on tobacco properly, and the Minister indicated that that was vending machines. I am unhappy about this. There are going to happen. There is still a threat of locations which, of their very nature, are accessible prohibition—even the Minister’s tone of voice goes only by adults—for instance, members-only clubs and up a bit when that word comes in—and there is a similar establishments. The case does not seem to have problem: if there is an emphasis on possible been made for banning cigarette machines from such prohibition, people will not put in the investment that places. Like my noble friend Lord Naseby, I should will be required to ensure that they shift the machines like to hear the Minister’s reasons for leaving this round a bit, or whatever. I hope that the Minister will possibility open. put her emphasis on good regulation and see that it happens. At this stage, my amendment would delete Baroness Thornton: The amendments would remove the word “prohibition”. I beg to move. the power to prohibit tobacco vending machines and limit regulations so that they could apply only to Earl Howe: I shall speak to my Amendment 90, machines to which persons under the age of 18 are which is grouped here. I view the Government’s proposals likely to have access. As we debated under the previo on vending machines in a very different light from us group of amendments, Clause 20 provides that those relating to point-of-sale displays. There is a real regulations may prohibit or impose requirements on issue regarding vending machines, which is that young tobacco vending machines. GC 423 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 424

[BARONESS THORNTON] this would work in practice, the risks and the burdens I agree that it is important that the impact of new for enforcement become clear. First, how would we legislation on business is justifiable and is seen to be a know which premises to exclude? There would need to proportionate response to the problem. I have already be a process for premises to provide the necessary explained that our intention therefore is for regulations evidence and assurance that they consistently operate to first restrict access to vending machines by children robust and reliable age-limiting policies and procedures while maintaining them as a source of tobacco or whenever the premises is open to the public, and I am cigarettes for adults. We wish to give the tobacco aware that club premises primarily used in the evenings vending machine suppliers and operators ample or later at night may also be available for use during opportunity to make changes to eradicate under-age the daytime, which might mean that younger people sales of cigarettes from their machines, so these restrictions are allowed access. will not apply until 2011. Let me be clear that if Secondly, there is the question of enforcement. measures to stop young people buying cigarettes from Who will be responsible for deciding whether the vending machines are successful there will be no need premises were liable under the law or not? Local for the Government to use the power to prohibit trading standards officers, perhaps, which would add vending machines. However, we are committed to to the burden and work of local authorities. Thirdly, protecting children and young people from accessing what would happen if the age policy changed in the tobacco, and if the restrictions fail to prevent underage club? Would we need an offence of failure to notify a purchases, we will then move to ban cigarette vending change in circumstances, and again who would keep machines altogether. But we will allow at least two track of such changes and take on the extra work that years’ operation before considering whether a complete this would involve? The system would be rather difficult prohibition of tobacco vending machines would be and burdensome on local enforcement authorities, justified. In effect, those that operate vending machines and in addition it would be inflexible. We found that or have them on their premises, have from now until at allowing such exemptions was proving ineffective in least 2013 to show that they are able to stop children reducing underage tobacco sales. Under this amendment, buying cigarettes from their machines. our hands would be tied and we would be unable to The evidence to justify action is clear: vending bring those premises into the scope of the regulations machines are the usual source of cigarettes for 17 per without further primary legislation. cent of the 11 to 15 year-olds who smoke. The British As I have explained, there is already a power in new Heart Foundation estimates that 46,000 under-16 year-olds subsection 3A(7) which would allow us to make purchased cigarettes from vending machines in 2006 exemptions or to impose different requirements in in England alone. It is therefore important that we relation to different types of premises, should we retain the power to prohibit tobacco vending machines decide that this is appropriate. So I do not rule it out at without further primary legislation should it be shown this stage. I remind noble Lords that in recognition of to be necessary. the importance of these measures, all regulations relating I should point out, as have other noble Lords, that to vending machines in England and Wales would be vending machines supply only 1 per cent of the adult subject to approval by affirmative resolutions of cigarette market, so a complete prohibition on this Parliament or the National Assembly for Wales as sort of purchase would not, we believe, seriously appropriate. Parliament would then have the opportunity inconvenience adult smokers as there would still be to debate further whether a ban on tobacco vending many alternative retail outlets from which they would machines would be justified. For these reasons I am be able to carry on buying cigarettes. It is important not able to accept the amendment and hope that the that we use this opportunity to take the power to noble Lord will feel able to withdraw it. prohibit tobacco vending machines, should we need to do so in the light of experience with a more limited Lord Naseby: I am most grateful to the Minister for approach. I cannot therefore accept Amendment 88. what is quite a full answer. She is right to draw Amendment 90 limits regulation-making powers to attention to the opportunity given to the House by the only those machines likely to be accessed by children; affirmative resolution procedure. I suppose my only and I can appreciate the argument that if the aim is to plea to her is that her department should consult with tackle underage sales, it may not be necessary to London Trading Standards, which has clearly done a impose requirements on tobacco vending machines lot of effective work in this area, and hopefully learn that no one under 18 can use. First, however, I should from that experience. With that, I beg leave to withdraw like to take this opportunity to mention that new the amendment. subsection 3A(7) already provides a power for regulations to make different provisions for different classes of Amendment 88 withdrawn. case or circumstances. This power allows us to make exemptions, should we decide that that is appropriate. Amendments 89 to 96 not moved. I appreciate that some tobacco vending machines are in pubs and clubs that limit entry to patrons or Debate on whether Clause 20 should stand part of the members who are 18 or over. If we can be absolutely Bill. certain that young people would always be asked for proof of age before entering a particular premises, I can see that it could be argued that further requirements Lord Naseby: I apologise for interrupting very briefly. on how vending machines operate in such premises In answer to an earlier question—I may be quoting might seem unnecessary. But when we consider how her incorrectly and I apologise if I am, and indeed GC 425 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 426

Hansard will prove otherwise—I understood the Minister On a personal note, I wish that we could move to say that she and her Government were restricted in ahead to a royal commission on all drugs, including their contacts with the tobacco industry. Is it not a fact alcohol and tobacco. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, that the Department of Health states in its guidelines commented earlier that we are saying that tobacco is that they do not prohibit appropriate engagement more dangerous than cannabis; indeed, I think it is. between Government and the tobacco industry or its We need to look at all the drugs that are available and representatives, but suggest that any contact that could consider all options for the control of drugs, including be deemed as interference in the development of tobacco tobacco and alcohol. I hope that the Government will control policy should not be permitted? Perhaps I consider that in preparing their strategy. could ask the Minister to look at what she did say and see how it resolves itself in relation to what I have just Lord Patel: I support the amendment. I shall speak quoted. to my Amendment 107A, and I thank the noble Lords, Lord Rea and Lord Judd, and the noble Earl, Lord Baroness Thornton: I shall indeed look at what I Listowel, who support it. said and what the noble Lord said, and hopefully we I agree that we need a comprehensive strategy that will agree at least on the accuracy of what we said. encompasses all the issues relating to smoking and its reduction, particularly in the young. Throughout the Clause 20 agreed. world, the best tobacco-control interventions are those that are part of a clear, evidence-based plan that Clause 21 : Power to prohibit or restrict sales from comprehensively addresses supply and demand alongside vending machines: Northern Ireland the problem of second-hand smoke. If we are to continue to drive down the prevalence of smoking and Amendments 97 to 103 not moved. ensure that the legislation achieves all that it can to prevent youth smoking in particular, the measures Clause 21 agreed. proposed in the Bill must be part of a comprehensive strategy. Clause 22 agreed. 6.30 pm Amendment 104 Internationallyanddomestically,comprehensivestrategies have been shown to be the most effective means to Moved by Baroness Tonge reduce smoking prevalence. The steady fall in smoking 104: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— prevalence since 1998 in the UK can be attributed to “Report on comprehensive strategy to reduce tobacco usage the series of interventions which resulted from the publication of Smoking Kills and the additional funding (1) The Secretary of State shall report to Parliament by 2010 on a comprehensive strategy to reduce tobacco usage. that accompanied it. Internationally, that model has also found success. There are plenty of examples, Canada (2) The report shall contain an assessment of efforts to reduce the amount of smuggled tobacco sold in UK shops.” and New York being the key ones. Smoking Kills had a broad vision that is still necessary to address the enduring problems of health inequalities, youth uptake of smoking, Baroness Tonge: I suggest the insertion of a new exposure to second-hand smoke and the levels to which clause, as is pretty clearly stated in the Marshalled some groups are addicted to nicotine. List. There have been a lot of comments today about Ambitious targets are needed. The targets from piecemeal legislation, with things happening one year, Smoking Kills have largely been met, but we need new then a little bit of legislation the next, and so on. targets to address the heavy inequalities caused by Many feel that legislation has already gone too far in smoking, smuggling and the continuing problem of the banning of tobacco while some, like me, think that exposure to second-hand smoke. The key area is evaluation it has not yet gone far enough and that people should and reporting. Perhaps the greatest shortcoming of be discouraged even further from smoking tobacco. Smoking Kills was the absence of an evaluation plan. The Government may not accept any of the amendments It is vital that any new strategy should have a plan for that have been tabled during the course of the Bill, evaluation running through it from the start. When we although I hope that they will reflect on them and embark on innovative public health policy, we are make the Bill stronger by doing so. morally bound to evaluate it. I make a plea for the It is patently obvious that in two years’ time, at the Government to produce a strategy that encompasses maximum, the Government should come up with a all that in one plan spanning a period of time with full strategy for the control of tobacco. It should be clear time lines and ways to evaluate how successful comprehensive and all-embracing so that everyone the strategy is. I emphasise the need to have an evaluation knows just where the Government are going and what strategy built in from the outset, an oversight panel of they want to do about the issue of tobacco. Added to health experts and other stakeholders, from which we that, we need to know what is happening on the should exclude the tobacco industry, and clear milestones tobacco-smuggling front. That has been mentioned with opportunities to review the various components. now and then in Committee, but we still do not have any clear evidence whether these measures will increase Lord Campbell-Savours: I shall speak to proposed or decrease smuggling, or of what will happen. A new subsection (2) in Amendment 104 when we reach strategy is needed, and we are proposing that by 2010 Amendment 105, because I think that there is a direct that strategy should be produced. link between plain packaging and smuggling tobacco. GC 427 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 428

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] Baroness O’Cathain: That was an amazing contribution I return to my experience in the early 1990s when I from the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. I preface was trying to stop smoking. I wanted information on my comments by saying that we have moved a long the effectiveness of the various options to help me to way. I am going back many years but I remember stop smoking, but that information was simply unavailable. discussing in the Chamber nicotine patches and whether I remember that on one occasion I was advised to go they should be available for free on the National to Harley Street, and I went for hypnosis because I Health Service. All that was pooh-poohed. I also was told that that was a way to deal with it. I think remember a Member of the House who movingly that I wasted about £100. The point is that there was spoke about being addicted to heroin or crack cocaine no authoritative source of information to guide me on and managing to get off it through a lot of treatment. whether to go for treatment in Harley Street and have He still speaks openly about it, but he has never been hypnosis. I was advised that I should use patches. able to get off smoking. The only time he was able to Again, the manufacturers of patches were very keen to do so was through the sheer force of his wife’s power. tell us how wonderful they were, but I had no knowledge Every time she became pregnant he stopped smoking, at the time, nor do I to this day, as to the incidence of but after three children she decided that she did not success. want to go on with that option. I remember being told that I could have acupuncture. Similarly—I am generalising from the particular—my I did not know whether acupuncture worked. Some sister was an alcoholic. She was dried out but she still people say that it does but, again, there was no could not give up cigarettes. She said it was so much authoritative source. I should have thought that any easier to go dry and not give up cigarettes. She eventually strategy document presented to Parliament would deal died of cancer, but even to within a year of her death with the various options available to the public, enabling she still could not do it. them choose which route they went down, given the The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, made a options available. very good point: there is a lot of information going If I recall correctly, in the mid-1990s, Frank Dobson around about what one can do about cancer—exercise, introduced health action zones, where money was look after your diet, do not smoke, of course—and made available for anti-smoking strategies. An evaluation there is a great deal of emphasis on it. Similarly with was done, but I remember reading the report from my heart disease: exercise, diet, do not smoke But no health action zone. I never felt that the information global statement is made by the health authorities and that it provided was authoritative in the sense that it the Government—and why should it be made by could pinpoint real success as against information that them? The commentators in the newspapers who talk the health authority had gleaned and was using to about lifestyles should say that smoking is the one justify the expenditure involved in the health action thing we should all try to do something about. When zone. listening to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, I I should like to see in the report an explanation of jotted down that we need to support those people who the amount of money that has been put into research realise it is an addiction and just cannot break it. Too into helping people to stop smoking. I have always often when we see people smoking we say, “Why do wondered why there was not a substitute drug on the you not give up, for heaven’s sake. You know what it is market, which we could take in a pill or even an doing. Every single cigarette you smoke is taking five injection, to help us to stop smoking. If we can put a minutes off your life”, but support is what they need, man on the moon, I cannot see why someone, somewhere not criticism. has not been able to invent a product which would be a We need additional research into the means of substitute for nicotine or smoking and which would stopping smoking. The noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, enable us to run down. I understand that even to this mentioned patches, and they have been effective for day these products are not available. My sister has people whom I know. However, no body of research been trying to stop smoking for the past five years but or opinion is available to help people who desperately she simply cannot stop. want to give up smoking that outlines the options and indicates which are best for those who have a certain Baroness Tonge: I thought that nicotine patches lifestyle, work in a certain place or are overstressed. were an effective substitute for nicotine addiction, but We need to encourage that because there is no question it is even more difficult to cure the addiction of wanting that smoking kills. Therefore, I wholeheartedly support to use patches. There certainly needs to be something the proposed strategy. else—a dummy perhaps. Nicotine patches will substitute for cigarettes if it is nicotine that you are addicted to. The Earl of Listowel: I offer my support for a comprehensive strategy. Indeed, my name is added to Lord Campbell-Savours: I wish I could convince my Amendment 107A, which proposes such a strategy. sister of that. She has had them and they have not The noble Lord, Lord Patel, spoke about youth. The worked. There are a lot of people out there who have noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, described how found that they do not work. Maybe they do work but, difficult it is to give up as an adult. We know that again, where is the assessment; where is the leaflet 80 per cent of smokers begin smoking when they are which sets out all the options distributed; where is the children. I would welcome a strategy that focused on report to Parliament which sets out in detail all the what more we can do to prevent children smoking. options and how effective they are? I strongly support Sixty-eight per cent of teenage mothers are smokers the amendment. I hope that it deals with the options and 45 per cent of them smoke during their pregnancies. for those who are desperately trying to stop. That must be a further way of holding them back, GC 429 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 430 depriving their children of opportunity and perpetuating reductions in that regard. Canada and New York were a cycle of deprivation. This country in particular mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Patel. Canada needs to think about the welfare of its children. On went from a prevalence of 30 per cent in 1990 to 19 per many occasions my noble friend Lord Northbourne cent in 2006, and there is a prediction that it could go has raised in the House the difficulties experienced by as low as 12 per cent by 2011. That shows what can be families. The right honourable Iain Duncan Smith has done if you address your mind to it. However, any reported on the difficulties that many of our families action has to be taken across all sections of the community face. A recent UNICEF report placed us bottom of and, in particular, it must address the poorer sections the developed world in terms of the welfare of children, of the community to whom normal health education with the United States just above us. The Children’s messages are not getting through. Society’s Good Childhood Inquiry highlighted how I hope very much that we will see a new strategy many children are now growing up in the absence of document from the Government. We need to bring one or other parent. A third of our 16 year-olds now Smoking Kills up to date and we need to look at new live apart from their biological father. When parents ways of encouraging people not to start and to give up are absent, overwhelmed or unprepared, society has to if they are addicted. Smoking is a legal activity, it is do more to give children the right lead. Given these what people want to do, and there is nothing in these difficulties, we need to think very carefully about how measures or in the Bill to prevent that. However, we we can avoid children getting sucked into a lifetime have a duty to try to help people to give up and we also habit which will be so harmful to themselves and to have a duty to help children not to start smoking. A their children. I hope that the noble Baroness will give comprehensive strategy should include those items in this amendment very serious consideration. particular.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester: I am pleased to add my 6.45 pm support to both these amendments, which are similar and have a common aim. I again declare an unpaid Lord Stoddart of Swindon: It might surprise the interest as a trustee of Action on Smoking and Health noble Baroness to learn that I am going to support her and as a patron of the Roy Castle Lung Cancer amendment. Foundation. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, drew attention to the need for more research on ways Noble Lords: Oh! to encourage people to stop smoking. Greater effort should also be made to determine the causes of lung cancer. It is very easy to say that it is a self-inflicted Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I think that it is a very smoking disease and therefore that there is no point in good amendment. We have been dealing with this carrying out research on it. However, that is not entirely problem piecemeal over a long period. I think that the the case. A lot of medical research is carried out—a lot tobacco manufacturers and others who are concerned is carried out at the University of Liverpool—into the with the sale of tobacco should know where they are causes of lung cancer, particularly as regards its prevalence. going. A 10-year programme would help those It is done very much on a shoestring. There is very organisations and would necessitate a thorough little funding for that research from the Department of examination into all the claims that are made about Health. However, it is an important part of a complete tobacco, for and against. For example, we could establish strategy to tackle smoking. what information was accurate and what information was not, and what science was good and what science As others have said, we have made remarkable was junk. There is quite a bit of junk science around progress in the 11 years since Smoking Kills was published. the tobacco industry. The fact that smoking prevalence in England is now down to 22 per cent, compared with between 25 and We would have to consult all those people, including 30 per cent 20 years ago, shows that the measures we tobacco manufacturers and purveyors of tobacco, about have pushed through Parliament have made a terrific what would happen to them and what they could do to difference; for example, the introduction of the ban on help, and of course we would also have to consult the tobacco advertising and sponsorship and the major medical profession and statistical organisations. I think reforms introduced in the most recent Health Act. that we should also look at any benefits that there However, although these prevalence rates are good for might be. I have to tell the Committee that, when I was those of us who like going to restaurants, bars or very young and suffered from a bit of constipation, I public places and being in a smoke-free environment, went to see the doctor, who said, “What you should do they mask the fact that the social inequalities around is sit on the lavatory and smoke a cigarette. That the smoking prevalence figures are still enormous. would help a lot”. However, that was a long time ago Smoking prevalence rates are still 60, 70 or 75 per cent and I am still here. As I said, we should then be able to in some communities, particularly poor, working-class test all sorts of assertions. areas in the north of England. The message has not In relation to nicotine patches, I have a friend of 85 got through to them. A new, comprehensive strategy who has been smoking all her life. She thought that must take account of smoking inequalities and address she ought to give it up but found it difficult and she communities where that is a real issue. started using nicotine patches. Now, she is addicted to Certainly, one of the most important parts of a the patches. Some people find it very difficult indeed. strategy is what we are attempting to do in this Bill, There are all sorts of things about tobacco which which is to discourage young people from starting we should know, and I think that the amendment smoking. Some countries have achieved dramatic would provide the opportunity to find out about them. GC 431 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 432

[LORD STODDART OF SWINDON] have a strategy for evaluating whether these particular The tobacco manufacturers would not worry about steps that we are taking are actually achieving their this—I think that they would be pleased. There has purpose. I wish we did that more often. It is terribly been some criticism of tobacco manufacturers. There important. seems to be some idea that reducing, and eventually I must declare an interest from my self-education; eliminating, the smoking of cigarettes will hurt BAT. one of my daughters was pioneering some years back It will not be hurt by that at all. It will sell cigarettes to a combined local authority and National Health Service people in Africa, China and what have you. It now project on persuading pregnant women and young sells so many products that it will make no difference mothers not to smoke. I was startled by two things at all to that company. I welcome the amendment and that she said, because she was totally committed to the hope that the Government will accept it. cause. She said: “You know, you do have to reflect on the realities with which I am sometimes faced. The Lord Judd: I support these two amendments, in first is that I work partly with young mothers, pregnant particular Amendment 107A, to which I have put women, midwives, hospitals, training courses and the my name. I was particularly struck by a part of rest, but one of my biggest difficulties is working with Amendment 104 on which we have not dwelt very general practitioners, many of whom do not take this much, which makes an important reference to smuggled issue as seriously as they should”. If we are serious tobacco. That issue needs a lot of attention. about achieving results on smoking, there is an issue We have all been making personal confessions about that needs to be part of a comprehensive strategy. the problems and challenges that we have faced. All I What made an even greater impression on me was can say is that we give up smoking in different ways. I when she said, “I have to face it that for some of these was sitting with a pipe, to which I had progressed, one single mothers on limited means, living one hell of a day, when its bowl dropped into the pint of beer in life, their fag is the only enjoyment they really get in front of me. I said: “This is clearly a message from the life—the only break they get”. This did not put her off gods. One or the other has to stop”. The beer did not. her course, but she was suggesting that if we are going That is all I can say, and I have hardly smoked since. I to make progress we have to look at the social context was fortunate to have had a traumatic experience of in which we are operating and at all the factors that that kind which brought my smoking to a halt. have a bearing on the situation. What I like about the What strikes me about the general tenor of the amendment is that it introduces that concept by saying, discussion is that there has been a lot of wisdom, “Yes, we should make it more difficult to smoke; yes, because many factors bear in on the whole issue of there are all sort of ways that we can curb the easy smoking. I have an abiding affection for the noble availability of tobacco, which is, of course, a bad Lord, Lord Stoddart, with whom I was privileged to thing—but at the same time we really need to look (a) share a desk for many years downstairs, before he at whether we are achieving results, of course, but (b) decided to go off on an independent line on politics. at whether we are taking fully into account all the Never once, as a committed smoker, did he ever inflict factors that we should be”. I commend those who his smoking habits aggressively on me. He was extremely drafted the amendments, and I hope that the Government sensitive— will take them seriously.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I did not really go along Baroness Cumberlege: I, too, support the amendments. that line. All that I did— This seems to be a therapeutic part of the evening where we are all letting out our personal experiences. Noble Lords: We cannot hear. At the age of 17 I tried really hard to smoke. I bought a wonderful holder that was black, sort of ebony, with Lord Stoddart of Swindon: The noble Lord suggested a silver ring around it. I thought I looked so elegant; I that I left the Labour Party. Of course, I did not leave wanted to be like Audrey Hepburn. Sadly, though, the Labour Party; I was expelled from the Labour there was no way. I could not smoke; I never got to Party because I supported decent Labour candidates like it. on the A-list and B-list against Shaun Woodward—a With regard to the amendments, it is a good idea to defecting Tory who was parachuted into a safe Labour have a strategy. Governments are keen on strategies, seat. and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, is right that we have the strategies but the implementation is difficult. I say Lord Judd: We can debate this issue some other to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that one time. All that I was going to say was that my noble of the things the Government have tried to do is to get friend—he was then my noble friend—was always GPs involved. They have smoking cessation clinics, extremely sensitive and never once inflicted in any and their pay and QOF points are related to it. unacceptable way his smoking habits on those of us Pharmacists are now getting into smoking cessation who shared a room with him. There is a lot of sensitivity clinics as well. Real attempts have been made. on all sides. My other point is about smuggling. In 2006-07 Her Very often there is a flaw in our approach to legislation. Majesty’s Revenue and Customs estimated that between We embark on legislation, we pass it, but we do not 9 per cent and 17 per cent of cigarettes—that is a large actually give enough attention to evaluating by how gap, but I suppose it is hard to define—and between far it has achieved its purpose. What I like about this 48 per cent and 59 per cent of hand-rolling tobacco amendment is that it is saying that we really should were smuggled. As a result, the Government lost revenue GC 433 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 434 of between £2.8 billion and £4.1 billion. That is something one wants to say, “It’s too late”. But damage to the that they should be tackling; we cannot afford, especially baby in utero when the mother carries on smoking is at this time when we are in such dire straits financially, crucial and we need to prioritise. Such prioritisation to lose those sorts of sums of money. What action are might also focus research money, which would be an the Government taking to try to stop the smuggling? important outcome.

Baroness O’Cathain: This point tracks back to what Lord Palmer: As the only male Member of the the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said. I was relieved Committee who smokes, I fully endorse both of these that he was actually on the side of the good and the amendments. Interestingly, I may also be the only great, as I always say, but I was pretty appalled by his Member of the Committee whose GP smokes as well, final statements—I would not like to be associated but perhaps that is by the by. It was interesting to with them, although I thought he was great on some listen to the experience of the noble Lord, Lord of the issues—that it does not really matter if we all Campbell-Savours, because as a resident of Scotland give up smoking here because BAT and Imperial there may be a leaf to be taken out of NHS Scotland’s Tobacco will be able to flog all the cigarettes they like guidelines on how to stop smoking. I think I am right to Africa and to Asia. I am sorry, but that is the in saying that there is now a 24-hour helpline which impression that he created. The idea that we should be people can call for counselling and advice on how to exporting— give up. Once again, I want also to mention the terrible Lord Stoddart of Swindon: Will the noble Baroness problem of smuggled goods. Lots of figures have been give way? bandied around and there is a wide margin, but the figures I was given last week suggest that the Treasury Baroness O’Cathain: Of course I will. is losing some £3.8 billion a year. However much the Treasury loses, presumably it is absolute madness for it Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I merely stated the fact to lose anything at all. I, too, look forward very much that those companies will do that; I was not supporting to hearing what the Minister has to say. it. I was stating that they had other, large markets to which they would switch. The Earl of Listowel: I remind the Committee of what was said earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Baroness O’Cathain: I thank the noble Lord. I am Golding, and the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, about what very glad that he said that and that it is now on the goes on in schools. Some children sell cigarettes or record, because otherwise it would have upset me there might be an exchange of coupons. Perhaps the greatly. noble Baroness could provide us with a note on what is currently being done to address smoking in schools, 7pm detailing the training of teachers and so forth. Further, with regard to newsagents, it occurs to me that they Lord Judd: What I thought I heard the noble Baroness could become part of the strategy in terms of first say in her earlier intervention was a very important reassuring them about the impact of these changes to contribution to the debate. If one is to have a successful their businesses, and then recognising that they are at strategy, one needs to concentrate hard on promoting the front-line in terms of dealing with children. Perhaps health and well-being so that people identify with they might be incorporated into discussions with children having a better quality of life. It should not just be who ask to buy cigarettes by telling them why it is so telling people what they cannot do, but showing them bad for them and why they should not start now. They how much better their lives could be. A positive element might have a useful role in developing the things we must run through this, and again that is the argument have been discussing in the debate. Many newsagents in favour of a strategic approach. are family businesses. People work extremely hard for their families in those businesses and they are concerned Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: It seems that a lot of about the welfare of children. the action the Government have already taken has been in support of different parts of the strategy, and it may be helpful if they were to produce, possibly in Lord Laird: I apologise to the Committee; I was in conjunction with the World Health Organisation, strategies the Chamber for the Statement on the tragic events on tobacco control because of irresponsible marketing over the weekend in Northern Ireland. I missed the to children in other countries, which is deeply abhorrent. proposal to move these amendments, but I support Indeed, many speakers have focused on children and them. I want to check a couple of thoughts with noble the next generation because it does not really matter if Lords which are for information purposes. First, I older people smoke; the damage has already been presume that there are UK-wide surveys and strategies done. When they look like prunes, their legs are dropping to be worked out. My other point concerns smuggled off and they cannot get up the stairs, whether they tobacco being sold in UK shops. In Northern Ireland, carry on smoking or stop is not going to make a huge where there is a lot of former paramilitary activity, amount of difference. I say that because I am distressed smuggled tobacco is not sold in shops but on street by those times when patients, having developed lung corners and other socially unacceptable places. The cancer in particular, say that they have now stopped issue has to be looked at more broadly than just on the smoking. The only response is just not to reply because basis of smuggled tobacco being sold in shops. GC 435 Health Bill [HL][LORDS] Health Bill [HL] GC 436

Baroness Thornton: This has been an interesting and in schools—it is part of the government strategy and informative debate. I shall approach it in two for health in schools—but I will make the detail of major parts. The first is to talk about strategy and that available to him and other Members of the evaluation; the other is to talk about the Government’s Committee. work against the illicit tobacco trade. My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours raised the Both Amendments 104 and 170A would create a issue of evidence and support to quit smoking. He is duty on the Secretary of State to publish a comprehensive probably aware that progress has been made since he tobacco strategy, but they vary in the details that they was making his attempts to stop smoking, but I do not would require. Amendment 104 would insert a new doubt that it is a very difficult thing for people to do. If clause that would place a statutory duty on the Secretary we are all telling our smoking stories, I stopped at the of State to provide a report to Parliament by 2010 on a beginning of 1983. My husband and I did it together. comprehensive strategy to reduce tobacco usage, including It was not an easy thing and I know that if I had one an assessment of efforts to reduce the amount of fag, I would be back on 10 or 15 a day. It is an smuggled tobacco sold in UK shops. Amendment addiction that is not easy to beat. 107A also requires a strategy, but states that it should be published by 21 July this year and that it should Over the past decade, the Government have delivered include an evaluation programme for the strategy to a very ambitious programme of tobacco control. We be updated in the light of new evidence. It would also have set up an extensive network of local NHS stop- require the strategy to set various targets. smoking services in communities across the country and have put high levels of investment into those The amendments highlight an important point. I services, which means that most of them have a fully would not want the Committee to think that the new resourced smoking cessation programme. We are running provisions for tobacco control introduced by the Bill a marketing and communications programme that are the whole story. The provisions are just one part of reaches out to millions of smokers. That gives them an overall government strategy to reduce the health information on how to stop smoking and provides harms from smoking. support in quitting. I think that the noble Lord said The Committee will know that last year we published that there is no point in battering people with this; you our Consultation on the Future of Tobacco Control,a have to give them support. public consultation that received nearly 100,000 responses. I agree with noble Lords—this was mentioned in The report of that consultation exercise was published particular by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege—that in December. We made it clear that consultation was tackling the illicit trade in tobacco will continue to be the first step towards developing a new national tobacco a vital element of the Government’s strategy. Relaxing control strategy, and I am sure the Committee will be the pressure would allow the illegal trade to undermine pleased to learn that I can confirm that the Government all the good work that we are doing and the investment intend to publish a comprehensive strategy on the that we are making across other areas in an attempt to future of tobacco control before 2010—in fact, it will reduce the prevalence of smoking and help smokers to be issued later this year. quit. In particular, the availability of illicit tobacco is a However, I would not want to commit in legislation significant factor in perpetuating health inequalities, that the new strategy be published by 21 July, as we and that alone makes it a top priority. need to leave adequate time for the strategy to be developed to take account of Parliament’s decisions As noble Lords will be aware, the illicit share of the regarding the tobacco proposals in this Health Bill, for tobacco market is estimated to be 13 per cent, but example, and to take on board comments made during more than half of hand-rolled tobacco is estimated to the course of our debates—for example, in the past be illicit. That is why reducing the availability of these hour of our discussion. When the strategy is published, products is a priority for Her Majesty’s Revenue and the Secretary of State will make a Statement in the Customs, the UK Border Agency and, at the retail other place and copies will be placed in the House level, local authority trading standards. We are not, Libraries. and must not be, complacent. Before I address the illegal tobacco trade, perhaps I The Government have already made significant may respond to a few of the issues on the government progress in reducing the illicit tobacco market. Since strategy and points raised by noble Lords about stopping the Government’s Tackling Tobacco Smuggling strategy smoking. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, raised was introduced in 2000, there has been an investment the NHS Stop Smoking Services. I agree that local of over £200 million. We have cut the size of the illicit NHS Stop Smoking Services provide excellent support cigarette market share by a third; we have seized more to smokers in communities across the country. Recently, than 14 billion illicit cigarettes and more than 1,000 England was assessed as having one of the best smoking- tonnes of hand-rolling tobacco in the UK and abroad; cessation services in the world. Not only is nicotine we have broken up over 370 criminal gangs; we have replacement available on prescription from the NHS successfully prosecuted more than 2,000 people; and but most formats can be bought from shops, including we have issued over £35million-worth of confiscation supermarkets. orders. I am not sure whether we have a 24-hour helpline, Tackling illicit tobacco remains a priority for the but I intend to find out whether we do. We would Government. In November 2008, we published Tackling certainly want to follow that example. I will write to Tobacco Smuggling Together, an integrated strategy the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, about the detail of his for HM Revenue and Customs and the new UK remarks. I know that advice is available for teachers Border Agency. I recommend that noble Lords look at GC 437 Health Bill [HL][9 MARCH 2009] Health Bill [HL] GC 438 this updated strategy to see how ambitious the and will be informed by the advice of academic experts. Government are with regard to reducing the amount I hope that answers the questions raised by the noble of illicit tobacco. Lord, Lord Patel. The new HMRC/UK Border Agency strategic In the light of that new evidence, Ministers will take partnership will be central to the future of the strategy, a view on whether any further evaluation or target-setting which is underpinned by these key principles: making is needed or warranted, given the need to keep to a it harder for smugglers to source tobacco; disrupting minimum both costs and any burden associated with the supply and distribution chain; increasing the risks the collection of data. However, I assure the Committee and reducing the rewards of smuggling; and tackling that we will continue to be ambitious in bringing down demand by raising public awareness. Under this smoking prevalence in the population. We will seek to partnership, HMRC is committed to strengthening its apply the measures in the new strategy that are most work with the police, local government and health and likely to support that aim. I hope that those assurances business stakeholders to tackle the demand for and are sufficient for the noble Lord to feel able to withdraw supply of illicit tobacco. The Department of Health is these amendments. working with HMRC to encourage collaboration in the fight against illicit trade, particularly at the local The Earl of Listowel: What are the targets for level, and is supporting the development of a new children, and what success has there been in achieving marketing strategy aimed at changing attitudes and them? behaviour around illicit tobacco. We must recognise that tobacco smuggling is a Baroness Thornton: I know that this is in my briefing, global problem requiring global solutions. A detailed and I will certainly inform the Committee, but right international protocol on illicit trade is being developed now I cannot quite bring it to mind. under the World Health Organisation’s Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, and HMRC is taking Baroness Tonge: A quite extraordinary peace seems a lead role in its development. Nevertheless, it is to have descended on the Moses Room; we may not important to note that very little smuggled tobacco is have peace on earth, but we certainly have a temporary made available through formal retail channels; rather, truce in here—until we get on to the next group of it is available through other locations such as workplaces, amendments. I thank the Minister for her thoughtful car boot sales or even people’s own homes. I have to and comprehensive reply. I think I heard her say that say that the Holloway Road, a route that I drive down, the Government were going to produce a strategy seems to be one of the main places. Therefore the report some time towards the end of this year that second part of the amendment, relating to reporting would also contain measures towards the curbing of on the sale of smuggled tobacco in UK shops, is likely the illicit trade in tobacco—if not the success rate, at to be of limited value. least what the Government were hoping to do about it. Analysis by HMRC suggests that, today, most illicit We need reminding, too, that the report would cigarettes are counterfeit or non-UK brands. Enforcement apply only to England. Presumably Scotland, Northern authorities have the means to detect counterfeit cigarettes Ireland and Wales would be able to produce their own through covert anti-counterfeit markings, while fiscal strategy. markings now mean that it is very difficult for non-UK brands to infiltrate the legitimate retail sector. I reassure noble Lords that each year HMRC publishes an Baroness Thornton: It will be for England and Wales. assessment of the illicit market share for cigarettes In answer to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, our aim and hand-rolled tobacco, which is the key measure of is to reduce smoking among children from 13 per cent our success in tackling tobacco smuggling. to 9 per cent, and in fact we have already achieved that. 7.15 pm I turn to the issue of valuation targets. The Committee Baroness Tonge: I thank the Minister once again, will be aware that progress in reducing the harm and I look forward to the resumption of hostilities associated with smoking has been measured by public next time. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. service agreements, and I am happy to say that the latest figures from 2007 show that we have met our Amendment 104 withdrawn. targets for the overall adult population of 21 per cent. We are also on track to meet our target for the routine Baroness Thornton: This may be a convenient moment and manual group of 26 per cent. We need to build on to adjourn the Committee, since we know that the this momentum to ensure that health inequalities are next amendment is going to generate another substantial tackled and that the harms caused by smoking become debate. I propose that we adjourn until Wednesday at something of the past. 3.45 pm. We already collect a wealth of data on smoking behaviour in England, and we keep abreast of new The Deputy Speaker (Viscount Ullswater): The research on how to protect people from the harms of Committee stands adjourned until Wednesday. smoking. The new strategy is being developed to make the best use of all the relevant information and data, Committee adjourned at 7.18 pm.

WS 71 Written Statements[9 MARCH 2009] Written Statements WS 72

about the ability of airport operators to finance the Written Statements necessary investment in airport and runway capacity needed to improve the passenger experience. In addition Monday 9 March 2009 these proposals, while ensuring that passenger interests will continue to be safeguarded, will remove 42 smaller airports from economic regulation. Airports: Economic Regulation It is also essential that airports take fully into Statement account the environmental consequences of their operations. I intend to give the CAA an environmental The Minister of State, Department for Transport duty with respect to its economic regulatory functions. (Lord Adonis): My right honourable friend the Secretary This will ensure that, when operating as an economic of State for Transport (Geoff Hoon) has made the regulator, the CAA will consider the environmental following Ministerial Statement. consequences of its decisions. I am today publishing a consultation document on I propose that all 13 airports with more than 5 million proposals to reform the economic regulation of airports. passengers per annum should be required to produce Economic regulation plays an important role in ensuring an annual report on the environmental impact of their that airports, particularly in the south-east of England, operations, and their mitigation measures. This would make the best use of existing capacity, have regard to happen alongside the publication of their annual report the environmental impact of their operation and deliver and accounts, and will give the airports and the a responsive service to their customers, at an acceptable communities which they serve important information. price. I believe that these proposals are not only an important There has been considerable criticism of the current step forward in their own right, but that they are legislation, which has remained essentially unchanged important enabling measures around which further since the privatisation of the British Airports Authority environmental policy can be developed and implemented. over 20 years ago. I have listened carefully to the These proposals are in addition to the department’s points made by the aviation industry, passenger work on aviation and the environment which were representatives, airport operators, the Competition outlined to the House in my Oral Statement of 15 January Commission, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and 2009. other interested stakeholders. I have also taken advice As part of our comprehensive environmental approach from Professor Martin Cave and a panel of regulatory we will also be consulting later in 2009 on the operation experts, who have been undertaking detailed work of a proposed “green slots” arrangement at Heathrow over the past few months. Airport and on the details of how to apply enforceable These proposals are designed to put the passenger mechanisms—to which we are committed—ensuring at the heart of the regulatory regime. To demonstrate that noise and air quality limits at Heathrow are met. this, I am proposing a number of key changes. We will also consult on proposals to implement Sir Joe Pilling’s recommendations to update the CAA’s overall First, I propose that the CAA should be given, in its strategic remit. I will inform the House in due course role as the economic regulator for airports, a primary as we make progress on this work. duty towards the passenger. Secondly, I propose to put the consumer representation for air passengers on a statutory footing for the first time. I intend to do this Armed Forces: Nimrod by transferring the functions and expertise of the Air Statement Transport Users Council to Passenger Focus. Passenger Focus has a well-established reputation as an effective advocate for rail passengers. It is also taking on a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry similar role for bus passengers. Giving it responsibility of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My right for air transport will enable a traveller’s end-to-end honourable friend the Minister of State for the Armed journey to be considered within a single organisation. Forces (Bob Ainsworth) has made the following Written As further evidence of the Government’s commitment Ministerial Statement. to air passengers, I am also publishing a report The board of inquiry into the tragic loss of 14 personnel Understanding the Airport Passenger Experience, which as a result of the Nimrod XV230 crash on 2 September gives more insight into the end-to-end airport journey 2006 made a number of recommendations to improve and the types of improvements passengers actually the safety of the fleet. Following on from this work the want. Together with this, I am publishing advice from Nimrod fleet is currently undergoing modifications to the CAA on improving the air passenger experience, replace a number of fuel seals and the engine bay hot and the results of a passenger survey. Copies of these air ducts. These programmes were due to complete by reports and the consultation document have been 31 March 2009 but, unfortunately, problems with the placed in the Libraries of the House. provision of replacement fuel seals mean that both I want economic regulation to be targeted, flexible programmes will be delayed beyond that date. and efficient. I am therefore proposing the introduction Our technical experts have advised that in order of a licence-based scheme of regulation, similar to that the risks involved in operating the aircraft remain that which exists already in other regulated sectors. tolerable and as low as reasonably practicable, no Only the very largest airports—those with over 5 million Nimrods should fly after 31 March 2009, unless their passengers per annum or with significant market power— hot air ducts have been replaced. Ministers and the would require a licence. This will deliver greater certainty Chief of the Air Staff accept this advice. Delays to the WS 73 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 74 replacement of fuel seals will, however, have no impact On 18 January 2007 (Official Report, col. 933), my on flying since our experts assess that the risk is right honourable friend the Member for Dulwich and tolerable. West Norwood announced the planned annual increases For this reason, our priority now is to ensure that in the TV licence fee under the BBC’s six-year funding we modify the remaining aircraft as quickly as possible settlement, which began in April 2007. In line with so we are temporarily withdrawing Nimrod aircraft that settlement, from 1 April 2009, the fee for a colour from overseas operations until early summer. This will television licence will be £142.50 and the fee for a allow us to free up the maximum number of aircraft black and white licence will be £48.00. I have today for the modification programme while also allowing laid before the House the regulations necessary to Nimrod to continue with its critical homeland security bring these new fees into force. tasks. During this period, we will use other UK and The regulations also extend the facility for cash coalition assets to maintain an effective surveillance payment schemes to the Isle of Man, Jersey and capability overseas. Guernsey, to bring the availability of these facilities We are also allocating additional service engineering into line with the UK; and extend the facility for personnel from RAF Kinloss and RAF Waddington quarterly direct debit payments to Jersey and Guernsey, to the modification programme. The reallocation of to bring the availability of these facilities into line with these personnel will cause a temporary reduction in the UK and Isle of Man. routine UK-based Nimrod flying but will not affect our ability to protect UK interests at home. We have reassessed the situation in the light of Women: Violence these developments and concluded that the Nimrod Statement fleet remains airworthy and safe to fly, subject to the measures outlined above. Separately, QinetiQ has provided the second report The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home on the Nimrod Ageing Aircraft Systems Audit. It Office (Lord West of Spithead): My right honourable does not identify any significant airworthiness issues friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department and the findings of the report do not alter previous (Jacqui Smith) has made the following Written Ministerial assessments that the Nimrod aircraft remains safe to Statement. fly. Copies of the report will be placed in the Library I am today publishing a consultation document of the House and on the MoD website. A copy is also Together We Can End Violence Against Women and being passed to Mr Charles Haddon-Cave QC for Girls, which seeks views on how to prevent and combat inclusion in his review of Nimrod safety. violence against women and girls. Copies of the consultations will be available from the Vote Office Local Transport Act 2008: Quality and placed in the House Library. Violence against women and girls is unacceptable, Partnership Schemes whatever the context, whatever the circumstances. This Statement consultation is intended to raise awareness, discussion and debate on how together we can end violence The Minister of State, Department for Transport against women, and overcome its debilitating impact (Lord Adonis): My honourable friend the Parliamentary on individuals, families and communities. Over the Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Paul Clark) past 10 years this Government have worked alongside has made the following Ministerial Statement. voluntary organisations to deliver a package of measures The Government are today publishing their response to protect women from violence and to support those to the consultation on draft regulations and guidance who have suffered violence. Together we have made a to support the provisions in the Local Transport Act 2008 real difference. about quality partnership schemes (QPSs). Copies of the number of incidents of domestic violence has the Government’s response to the consultation will be more than halved since 1997; available on the Department for Transport’s website at www.dft.gov.uk and in the Libraries of the House. the rate of conviction in domestic violence cases Regulations about QPSs will come into force on has significantly increased. Now, the vast majority 6 April 2009, and statutory guidance to local transport (72 per cent) of perpetrators who have been charged authorities and metropolitan district councils under and brought to court result in a conviction; Part 2 of the Transport Act 2000 will be issued shortly. the number of women killed by their partners or Copies of the statutory guidance will be made available ex-partners in 2007-08 (72) is the lowest recorded in the Libraries of the House. figure for more than a decade; the conviction rate for rape cases when a case gets Television Licence Fee Regulations to court are at their highest for 10 years; Statement the Government have successfully intervened in over 400 cases of forced marriage last year alone; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for and Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord we have taken a stand on human trafficking and Carter of Barnes): My right honourable friend the rescued over 150 people through Operation Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Andy Pentameter 2 led by the police. Burnham) has made the following Written Ministerial This is the first time we have consulted on how to Statement. combat violence specifically against women and girls. WS 75 Written Statements[9 MARCH 2009] Written Statements WS 76

And it is the first time we have sought to take a cross- to identify what we can do collectively to overcome cutting approach to the offences that disproportionately and end violence against women. As part of this affect women. consultation, we will be holding a series of regional My vision is that we can create a society in which events in every part of England over the next three women and girls feel safe and confident in their homes months to enable everyone to tell us what they think. and in our communities, so that they can live freely, Discussion and debate are essential if we are to raise contribute to society, and prosper in their daily lives. awareness of the scale of the problem, and to improve the confidence of women and girls. I am proposing that we need to take more action to prevent violence against women; help women feel safer Violence against women is an enduring social issue when they are out, especially at night; further improve affecting women and their children. We have done the help women get when it is needed; and that we act much to address the problem already, but we can all to catch and convict perpetrators. do more. We can end violence against women and to I want this debate to engage with all sectors of do that we must harness all our energies across government society, with men and women, boys and girls. We need and within our communities.

WA 191 Written Answers[9 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 192

The total number of Armed Forces personnel deployed Written Answers on UK military operations, based on endorsed figures, was in the region of 17,000. Of these, approximately Monday 9 March 2009 30 per cent were Royal Navy personnel (including Royal Marines), approximately 50 per cent were Army personnel and approximately 20 per cent were Royal Anglo Leasing Air Force personnel. Question Asked by Baroness Northover Audit Commission: Complaints Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by the Solicitor General, Vera Baird, Asked by Baroness Warsi on 11 February (Official Report, House of Commons, To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many col. 1990W), why the investigation into Anglo Leasing complaints the Audit Commission dealt with in was terminated in January 2009. [HL1591] each of the past five years regarding (a) parish councils, (b) district councils, (c) borough councils, The Attorney-General (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): (d) metropolitan borough councils, and (e) county The director of the Serious Fraud Office exercised his councils; and of those complaints how many were discretion to terminate the investigation because there (1) upheld, and (2) dismissed; and how much the was no reasonable prospect of a conviction without Audit Commission charged each tier of local evidence being obtained from Kenya. government to cover the costs of the complaints. [HL1568] If evidence is received from Kenya in the future, the director will consider reopening the investigation. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Andrews): This is an operational matter for Armed Forces the Audit Commission and I have asked the chief Question executive of the Audit Commission to write to the noble Lady direct. Asked by Lord Selkirk of Douglas To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Bailiffs aim to have military capability at least equal to that Questions of France. [HL1936] Asked by Lord Lucas The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): We aim to HM Court Service contract requires contractors to have military capability appropriate to the security refer back to magistrates’ courts before using the challenges the UK faces. power of forced entry; if so, in what words; and whether there are plans to change practice in future contracts. [HL1553] Armed Forces: Personnel The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Question of Justice (Lord Bach): The contract between Her Majesty’s Courts Service and the private bailiff companies Asked by Lord Lee of Trafford that undertake work on behalf of magistrates’ courts To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were the does not contain a specific requirement for private figures on 1 January for (a) the established strength, bailiffs to refer back to magistrates’ courts before (b) the nominal strength, (c) the number of personnel using the power of forced entry. The Domestic Violence, fully fit and available for duty, and (d) the number Crime and Victims Act 2004 gives approved enforcement of personnel deployed on operations for (1) the agents who execute warrants on behalf of Her Majesty’s Royal Navy; (2) the Royal Marines; (3) the army; Courts Service the power to enter premises by force if and (4) the Royal Air Force. [HL1853] necessary. As part of the tender process for awarding these contracts, the internal controls operated by the contractors The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry were reviewed to ensure the arrangements to use forced of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): Figures for entry are controlled and only used where appropriate. established and nominal strength of the Armed Forces Her Majesty’s Courts Service monitors the ongoing are available from the Defence Analytical Services and use of these powers through a standard monthly Advice (DASA) organisation at www.dasa.mod.uk. management and reporting process. There have been The following figures are at 1 January 2009. only two occasions since the contracts commenced on Some 152,000 (approximately 85 per cent) personnel 1 April 2006 where these powers have been used. are fully fit, while some 25,000 (approximately 14 per It is not intended to change this practice in future cent) are classed as medically restricted in that they contracts. However this arrangement will be kept can still contribute but not fully. under review. WA 193 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 194

Asked by Lord Lucas Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980 for default in paying a sum adjudged to be paid by a conviction. The power To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether HM must be exercised only to the extent that it is reasonably Court Service expects bailiffs to explain their required for the purpose. enforcement powers to defaulters as a matter of Detailed guidance is available in HM Courts Service’s best practice; if so, whether they expect this explanation Search and Entry Powers (Domestic Violence, Crime to include bailiffs’ power to force entry; and in what and Victims Act 2004) Guidance to Civilian Enforcement words in what document this expectation is conveyed Officers and Approved Enforcement Agents.Acopyis to bailiffs. [HL1554] in the Library of the House. If a defaulter can prevent the execution of a warrant Lord Bach: It is expected that all Her Majesty’s merely by refusing to open his or her front door, the Courts Service civil enforcement officers and the approved practical value and credibility of enforcement proceedings enforcement agents who execute warrants on behalf of is substantially impaired. The Domestic Violence, Crime magistrates’ courts explain their powers to defaulters and Victims Act 2004 at Schedule 4A now gives civilian as a matter of best practice. enforcement officers (CEOs) and approved enforcement This requirement is made specific in respect of the agents (AEAs) an explicit power to enter premises in use of forced entry through guidance issued to all order to execute warrants and to use reasonable force civilian enforcement officers and approved enforcement in order to do so. This provides CEOs and AEAs with agents on the use of the search and entry powers a defence to any civil and criminal liability that would under the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004. otherwise arise. It is also applicable to the execution of The wording used in the guidance states that before warrants of distress for criminal enforcement. applying the powers of forced entry a civilian enforcement officer or approved enforcement agent should always Asked by Lord Lucas explain (to the defaulter) that they have the power to To ask Her Majesty’s Government on how many force entry and will use that power if the occupier is occasions during the most recent year for which not willing to let them in peacefully. records are available the power of forced entry has The contracts held between Her Majesty’s Courts been used by HM Court Service bailiffs; where in Service and the approved enforcement agents sets out the country these incidents have occurred; and whether the protocols and procedures that approved enforcement on each occasion the bailiffs have complied with agents must adhere to when executing warrants on HM Court Service requirements or guidance. behalf of Her Majesty’s Courts Service. Specifically [HL1556] Schedule 4, the contract service specification, details the procedures to be taken when contact is made with Lord Bach: Since the introduction of the Domestic the defaulter. The wording used in the specification Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004, records provided states that when contact is made the authorised employee show that the power to force entry has been used to shall provide in writing the powers vested in the contractor. execute warrants of arrest by magistrates’ court civilian This notification will include the powers of forced enforcement officers (CEOs) on 386 occasions. This is entry provided under the Domestic Violence, Crime broken down to: and Victims Act. 259 occasions in the north-west region; Asked by Lord Lucas 66 occasions in the Midlands region; To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether HM 20 occasions in the south-west region; and Court Service expects bailiffs to use their power to 41 occasions in the south-east region. force entry to vacant premises, or whether they are The power to force entry has been used to execute expected only to use it to force entry when someone warrants of distress by private bailiffs contracted to is inside and refusing entry. [HL1555] Her Majesty’s Courts Service (HMCS) on two occasions in the south-east region. HMCS does not have a Lord Bach: The Domestic Violence, Crime and breakdown for each of the individual years available Victims Act 2004 at Schedule 4A sets out the powers but can confirm that on all occasions HMCS requirements of authorised officers executing warrants. Section 1 have been met and guidance followed. defines “authorised officer” as civilian enforcement Asked by Lord Lucas officers or approved enforcement agents. Section 2(1) and (2) states that an authorised officer To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they may enter and search any premises for the purpose of plan to publish the names and addresses of certificated executing a warrant of arrest, commitment or detention bailiffs on the internet; and, if so, how bailiffs and issued in proceedings for or in connection with any their families will be protected from aggrieved criminal offence. The power may be exercised (a) only defaulters. [HL1557] to the extent that it is reasonably required for that purpose; and (b) only if the officer has reasonable Lord Bach: We plan to publish a register of certificated grounds for believing that the person whom he is bailiffs on the HM Courts Service website. It will seeking is on the premises. include the bailiff’s full name, the name of the bailiff’s Section 3 states that an authorised officer may enter employer or company to which the bailiff is contracted, and search any premises for the purpose of executing a the issuing court, date of issue and expiry of the warrant of distress issued under Section 76 of the certificate. No addresses will be disclosed. WA 195 Written Answers[9 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 196

Asked by Lord Lucas Our ambition is to enhance the range and choice of placements for looked-after children, while ensuring To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they that all placements are of a suitable quality. The steps plan to publish on the internet the names and we are taking to improve local commissioning, in addresses of Crown bailiffs, including county court particular the new sufficiency duty introduced by the bailiffs and fines officers and civil enforcement officers Children and Young Persons Act, are key to delivering employed at magistrates’ courts; and, if so, how this ambition. bailiffs and their families will be protected from Residential care must be of a high standard and aggrieved defaulters. [HL1558] staffed by a trained and well supported workforce. We know from Ofsted inspections that a small minority of Lord Bach: We have no plans to publish this children’s homes do not manage to meet these standards. information. That is why we are revising the national minimum Asked by Lord Lucas standards for children’s homes and strengthening Ofsted’s powers to enforce these standards through regulations To ask Her Majesty’s Government which bailiffs under the Children and Young Persons Act 2008. have taken the HM Court Service approved course To achieve our ambitions for all children in care, we on the use of their powers of forced entry. [HL1659] need a better understanding of what types of provision for children in care are most effective at meeting Lord Bach: All of Her Majesty’s Courts Service different children’s needs. That is why we are piloting civilian enforcement officers and private contracted multi-dimensional treatment foster care, and social bailiffs are required to have been trained on the use of pedagogy in children’s homes, to develop a much forced entry. better understanding of what works, particularly for Following the introduction of the Domestic Violence, the most vulnerable children. Crime and Victims Act 2004, all Her Majesty’s Courts The local and national-level performance frameworks Service civilian enforcement officers undertook mandatory for looked-after children reflect the importance that training on the use of forced entry. Newly appointed central and local government and our partners place civilian enforcement officers also undertake this training. on achieving real improvements in outcomes for children The contract between Her Majesty’s Courts Service in care. and private bailiff companies that execute warrants on behalf of magistrates’ courts requires all bailiffs who work on the contracts to have completed training of a Children: Poverty similar standard. As part of the monthly performance Questions monitoring procedures required under the contracts, the private bailiff companies must record all training Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass activities undertaken by bailiffs and report these to Her Majesty’s Courts Service regional management. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what funding This reporting includes those who have completed the and other support they will provide to implement search and entry training. the proposals in their consultation Ending Child Poverty: Making it Happen in Northern Ireland. [HL1578] Children: Care Question The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Asked by The Earl of Listowel Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Morgan of Drefelin): Ending Child Poverty: Making it To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Happen sets out our plans to enshrine in legislation the response to the new economics foundation report, Government’s commitment to eradicate child poverty A false economy: how failing to invest in the care by 2020. It seeks views on proposals to legislate to system for children will cost us all. [HL1700] establish an accountability framework and to drive progress towards the 2020 goal at both local and national levels. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Ministers are currently seeking opportunities to Morgan of Drefelin): We welcome this report. Since discuss in detail the proposals in Ending Child Poverty: 2000-01, local authority expenditure on services for Making it Happen with Ministers in the Northern looked-after children has increased from £1.3 billion Ireland Executive to determine the best way to ensure to over £2.1 billion in 2006-07 and as a result outcomes the proposals apply across the UK. for children in care have been improving in recent The consultation paper sets out the Government’s years. However, the Government recognise that more strategic priorities. Previous Budgets and Pre-Budget needs to be done and the Children and Young Persons Reports have announced a series of investments which Act 2008 makes the necessary legislative changes to have helped lift 600,000 children in the UK out of support implementation of our Care Matters programme relative low-income poverty since 1998, and measures of reform. We agree that children in care need to be announced in and since Budget 2007 are expected to placed in the setting which best meets their needs and lift around 500,000 children out of poverty. Decisions a key priority is to ensure that children are placed in on financial support will be taken in Budgets and the most appropriate accommodation. Pre-Budget Reports in the usual way. WA 197 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 198

Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass objectives. These payments are ring-fenced at the beginning of the year from the existing pay bill of departments To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions and are distributed to staff at the end of the year they had with the Office of the First Minister and based on performance. They are also non-consolidated Deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland with a and as such they have to be re-earned each year and do view to developing the proposals in their consultation not add to future pay bill costs. Ending Child Poverty: Making it Happen. [HL1579] In respect of the banking institutions, UK Financial Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: The goal to eradicate Investments (UKFI) manages the Government’s child poverty is UK-wide. The Government work closely shareholdings in recapitalised banks. UKFI has a role with the Northern Ireland Executive through the ongoing in scrutinising banks’ compliance with the recapitalisation work of the Four Nations Child Poverty Group. conditions and also in scrutinising remuneration policies, Ministers are currently seeking opportunities to to protect the interests of the taxpayer as major discuss in detail the proposals in Ending Child Poverty: shareholder. Making it Happen with Ministers in the Northern The Government have ensured that none of the Ireland Executive to determine the best way to ensure banks accessing the recapitalisation scheme will award the proposals apply across the UK. cash bonuses for 2008 to board members, and the Government approve the terms of remuneration for China: Tibet senior executives at banks in temporary public ownership. The Government recognise that companies need to Question be able to recruit and retain good people and bonuses Asked by Lord Hylton can play a role in attracting talent and in motivating To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they staff; however, going forward, bonus payments must will make representations to the government of be based on long-term sustainable performance in the China to release 17 Tibetans detained following interests of shareholders. Bonus payments which are events on 15 and 16 February in Lithang county of subject to deferral and appropriate clawback properly the Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture; and to seek reward long-term performance and ensure bonuses the removal of restrictions on the local population. are not solely based on past performance but also shape future performance. [HL1586] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Compensation: Pleural Plaque Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The Government are aware of reports of the detention of a number of Question Tibetans in Lithang County for protesting in support Asked by Lord Dixon of the Dalai Lama. We are concerned at these and other reports which indicate that the Chinese authorities To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they have instigated a crackdown in Tibet in advance of will decide on compensation for suffering from sensitive anniversaries during March. These concerns pleural plaques, following the House of Lords’ have been raised at all levels, including by my right judgment on 10 October 2007, and the subsequent honourable friend the Prime Minister during the latest representations and the consultation exercise carried UK/China summit. out by the Government which finished in September As well as continuing to urge the Chinese authorities 2008. [HL1643] that only peaceful dialogue between the two sides will result in a lasting and peaceful solution to the problem The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Tibet, we shall also continue to lobby for all those of Justice (Lord Bach): The consultation on pleural who are detained to be given fair trials. plaques closed on 1 October 2008 and has generated a With regards to the removal of restrictions on the large number of responses. We are carefully analysing local people, we would urge the Chinese authorities to all the submissions received, many of which are detailed restore Tibetans’ freedom of movement as soon as and complex, and will seek to publish a response possible, as we believe this is a fundamental human paper outlining the way forward as soon as possible. right. Civil Service: Bonuses Conflict Prevention Pool Question Question Asked by Baroness Northover Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they To ask Her Majesty’s Government which define bonus payments (a) in the context of the civil departments are responsible for funding for the service; and (b) in respect of the banking institutions Conflict Prevention Pool; what projects in which in which they have a controlling interest. [HL1435] countries are currently being supported; and whether there is any planned change to that. [HL1689] The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): Some civil servants are eligible to Lord Tunnicliffe: The Conflict Prevention Pool (CPP) receive non-consolidated performance payments, in is funded directly by the Treasury and managed jointly recognition of their performance in achieving agreed by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO), the WA 199 Written Answers[9 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 200

Department for International Development (DfID) of the projects in the other departments to which and the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The CPP budget Department for International Development funding allocation for the Comprehensive Spending Review has been transferred are new and which were already (CSR) period is £112 million in 2008-09, £109 million in those departments’ plans; and, of the latter, how in 2009-10 and £106 million in 2010-11. they were intended to be funded. [HL1587] The CPP currently funds a range of strategic programmes covering geographic areas including south Asia, Africa and the Middle East, and cross-cutting Lord Tunnicliffe: £1,650,000 transferred to the thematic programmes in support of international capacity Department for Culture, Media and Sport is for existing building, security and small-arms control. projects in connection with the 2012 Olympics relating to the development of sport in developing countries, In 2008-09 over 400 projects are being funded through which were always intended to be part-funded by the the CPP. Projects cover a wide range of activities to Department for International Development (DfID). deliver long-term conflict prevention focusing where the UK can have its biggest impact. Key areas of £300,000 transferred to the Ministry of Defence in intervention include supporting the peace process and respect of payments to locally engaged staff in Iraq is conflict prevention in Sudan, strategic support to the to cover the costs of DfID’s locally engaged (LE) Iraqi security sector in Sierra Leone, support to the UN staff under the HMG assistance scheme outlined by Department for Peacekeeping Operations (DPKO) and the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth security sector reform in the Balkans. Office, in a Written Ministerial Statement on 30 October 2007 (Official Report, col. WS 91). As an employer, The resource envelope for conflict remains as set DfID has approximately 40 former Iraqi staff who out at the start of the CSR period, although this is may be eligible under this scheme. We have judged that currently under discussion. DfID, FCO and the MoD the best way for DfID to make payments to these staff keep all activities under constant review in order to is through the system the MoD has set up to do this. respond to changing demands. £1,000,000 transferred to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) in respect of the returns Co-operation Ireland and reintegration fund is for an existing project that was always intended to be part-funded by DfID. Question £5,000 transferred to the Department for Innovation, Asked by Lord Laird Universities and Skills in respect of the skills strategy for government project is a new cross-government To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the project being funded by all government departments. Written Answer by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on £6,716,000 transferred to the FCO, and £18,899,000 24 February (WA 38) concerning the cost of a transferred to the Ministry of Defence, in respect of reception at Hillsborough on 24 November 2008, the Conflict Prevention Pool (CPP), is the allocation what are the details of the costs. [HL1821] of the remaining CPP funds for 2008-09. CPP resources are voted in the first instance to DfID as the financial Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The reception hosted manager for the overall CPP, but management of the for Co-operation Ireland was attended by 324 guests. specific projects is shared between departments. The The total cost for the reception of £5,736.35 is broken spring supplementaries are used to transfer funds to down as follows: the MoD and FCO in line with their project spend. Of food—£ 4,758.75; and a budget of £112 million in 2008-09, the MoD will beverages—£ 977.60. spend approximately 40 per cent, the FCO 30 per cent, and DfID 30 per cent. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland recognises he has a responsibility to keep down the costs of £216,000 transferred to the Foreign and receptions and he remains determined to do so. Commonwealth Office in respect of a conflict pool project in Ghana relates to the observation of a run-off However, it is important to understand that these election held on 29 December, and is a new project. events provide the community with the opportunity to recognise the many achievements of those working £917,000 transferred to the Ministry of Defence in and residing in Northern Ireland. It is also important respect of stabilisation aid fund projects in Iraq is the that we continue to maintain and develop the strong partial return of funds transferred to DfID from the sense of a shared community in Northern Ireland. MoD earlier in 2008-09, due to changes in forecasted spend on the projects. £1,000,000 transferred to the Foreign and Department for International Commonwealth Office in respect of a police reform Development: DEL project in Pakistan is a new project. Questions Asked by Baroness Northover Asked by Baroness Northover To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Statement by Lord Tunnicliffe on 12 February To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the on the Department for International Development’s Written Statement by Lord Tunnicliffe on 12 February departmental expenditure limit (WS 82-83), what on the Department for International Development’s existing or future projects have been cut from the departmental expenditure limit (WS 82-83), which Department for International Development’s previous WA 201 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 202

programme to allow the transfer of funds to the the RRF is to increase the number of foreign national Ministry of Defence, the Foreign and Commonwealth prisoners and failed asylum seekers who return to Office, the Department for Innovation, Universities their countries of origin, while ensuring that those and Skills, and the Department for Culture, Media who return are effectively reintegrated. DfID has agreed and Sport. [HL1588] to transfer funds to the FCO budget to contribute to this cross-government fund (alongside the FCO, UKBA, and the MoJ). Lord Tunnicliffe: No existing or future projects have been cut from the Department for International £6,716,000 has been transferred to the FCO, and Development’s (DfID) previous programmes to allow £18,899,000 has been transferred to the MoD, in respect these transfers of funds. Funds were already set aside of projects funded from the Conflict Prevention Pool in DfID’s budget plans to cover most of these items; (CPP). CPP resources are voted in the first instance to the remainder have been financed from DfID’s DfID as the financial manager for the overall CPP, but departmental unallocated provision. management of the specific projects is shared between departments. The spring supplementaries are used to Asked by Baroness Northover transfer funds to the MoD and FCO in line with their To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the project spend. Of a budget of £112 million in 2008-09, Written Statement by Lord Tunnicliffe on 12 February the MoD will spend approximately 40 per cent, the on the Department for International Development’s FCO 30 per cent, and DfID 30 per cent. departmental expenditure limit (WS 82–83), why £216,000 has been transferred to the FCO in respect Department for International Development funds of a Conflict Prevention Pool project in Ghana relating are being transferred to the London 2012 Olympics. to the observation of a run-off election held on [HL1589] 29 December. £917,000 has been transferred to the MoD in respect Lord Tunnicliffe: The £1,650,000 transfer to the of stabilisation aid fund projects in Iraq, representing Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) the partial return of funds transferred to DfID from will support activities linked to the London 2012 the MoD earlier in 2008-09, due to changes in forecasted Olympic Games which are designed to increase spend on the projects. participation in sport in developing countries. £1,000,000 has been transferred to the FCO in £650,000 will support elements of the International respect of a police reform project in Pakistan. Inspiration project—which aims to use the power of Asked by Baroness Northover sport to transform the lives of children and young people of all abilities, in schools and communities To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the across the world. It aims to help Governments, parents Written Statement by Lord Tunnicliffe on 12 February and schools in some of the world’s poorest countries (WS 82-83) on the Department for International to improve the health and education of children. Development’s departmental expenditure, why most £1,000,000 will support the International Sport of the transfers are from the Department for Development Initiative, which aims to increase the International Development to other departments. opportunities for young people in developing countries [HL1686] to participate in sport, primarily in sub-Saharan Africa. Asked by Baroness Northover Lord Tunnicliffe: The specific reasons for each budget To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the transfer are detailed in the Written Statement (WS 82-83). Written Statement by Lord Tunnicliffe on 12 February There are two general reasons why most of these are on the Department for International Development’s transfers from the Department for International departmental expenditure limit (WS 82-83), which Development (DfID) to other government departments: projects have been targeted for the transfer of funds DfID is the financial manager of the Conflict from the Department for International Development Prevention Pool (CPP). CPP resources are allocated to the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign and in the first instance to DfID, but management of Commonwealth Office. [HL1590] the specific projects is shared between DfID, the FCO and the MoD. The spring supplementaries Lord Tunnicliffe: £300,000 has been transferred to are used to transfer funds to the MoD and FCO in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in respect of payments line with their project spend. Of a budget of to locally engaged staff in Iraq to cover the costs of £112 million in 2008-09, the MoD will spend DfID’s locally engaged (LE) Iraqi staff under the approximately 40 per cent, the FCO 30 per cent, HMG assistance scheme outlined by the Foreign Secretary and DfID 30 per cent; and in a Written Ministerial Statement on 30 October DfID is involved in part-funding several projects 2007. As an employer, DfID has approximately 40 former that contribute towards DfID’s objectives, but are Iraqi staff who may be eligible under this scheme. We managed by other government departments. Examples have judged that the best way for DfID to make include the International Inspiration Project (led by payments to these staff is through the system the the Department for Culture, Media and Sport), MoD has set up to do this. which aims to use the power of sport to transform £1,000,000 has been transferred to the Foreign and the lives of children and young people of all abilities, Commonwealth Office (FCO) in respect of the returns in schools and communities across the world; and and reintegration fund (RRF). The primary aim of the returns and reintegration fund (led by the Foreign WA 203 Written Answers[9 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 204

and Commonwealth Office), the primary aim of is efficacious, safe and of acceptable quality. Part of which is to increase the number of foreign national the quality aspects of a medicinal product is for the prisoners and failed asylum seekers who return to company to demonstrate that the product is sufficiently their countries of origin, while ensuring that those stable over the shelf life of the product. who return are effectively reintegrated. In accordance with European medicines legislation Asked by Baroness Northover the marketing authorisation applications of all new medicinal products are required to have an evaluation To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the of the impact of the medicine on the environment Written Statement by Lord Tunnicliffe on 12 February (environment risk assessment or ERA). This is required (WS 82-83) on the Department for International so that any special methods of disposal can be identified Development’s departmental expenditure, whether and advice given in the product literature. similar levels of funds will be transferred from the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign and Electoral Register: Northern Ireland Commonwealth Office to the Department for International Development. [HL1687] Question Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass Lord Tunnicliffe: No further transfers of funds will take place in the financial year 2008-09. To ask Her Majesty’s Government who initiated the case brought by the Public Prosecution Service Asked by Baroness Northover for Northern Ireland against Mr Ian Withers for not giving personal information for inclusion on To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the the Northern Ireland electoral register; and what Written Statement by Lord Tunnicliffe on 12 February penalty was imposed on Mr Withers. [HL1964] (WS 82-83) on the Department for International Development’s departmental expenditure, whether Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: As this is an operational any part of the transfers qualify as official development matter I have referred your Question to the chief assistance (ODA) under the original allocation to electoral officer for Northern Ireland, who will respond the Department for International Development, to you directly. A copy of this letter will be placed in and therefore will not count following the transfer; the Library. and, if so, whether that represents a decline in the ODA/gross national income ratio. [HL1688] Embryology Lord Tunnicliffe: Whether UK government spending Questions counts as official development assistance (ODA) depends on the activities funded, not on which department Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool finances them. The Conflict Prevention Pool (CPP) To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the and stabilisation aid fund (SAF) both operate on the Written Answer by Lord Darzi of Denham on basis that they will finance some activities which qualify 10 February (WA 176), how the three-dimensional as ODA, and some which will not. As a result some of organisation of an embryo is defined under the the transfers to the CPP and SAF may not score as Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990; ODA. We expect that most of the other transferred and which section of that Act precludes the Human funds will finance activities which score as ODA. Fertilisation and Embryology Authority from Overall, the transfers will not significantly affect the subjecting an embryonic entity created in vitro to UK’s ODA/gross national income ratio. regulation as an embryo where it has not been demonstrated as non-living or non-human. Drugs: Degradable [HL1764] To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Question Written Answers by Lord Darzi of Denham on Asked by Lord Dykes 19 March 2008 (WA 44) and 10 February 2009 (WA 176), how the organisational structure of a To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they viable embryo is apparent in an entity if it “looks will establish a new programme with the drug industry like semolina and it stays like that”, as described by to design products with a degradable rate that the head of the Institute of Human Genetics at limits their accumulation in the environment. Newcastle University on 1 April 2008; and what [HL1815] evidence suggests that currently licensed cytoplasmic hybrids can develop a primitive streak, in the light The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, of a recent report in the journal Cloning and Stem Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): Her Cells. [HL1765] Majesty’s Government do not see the need to establish To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the a new programme with the drug industry specifically Written Answers by Lord Darzi of Denham on to design products with a degradable rate that limits 12 January (WA 96-97) and 10 February (WA 176), their accumulation in the environment. In order for how the Human Fertilisation and Embryology medicinal products to be granted a marketing Authority classifies an outgrowing embryo in terms authorisation the Medicine and Healthcare products of ability to develop a primitive streak if the authority Regulatory Agency has to be satisfied that the product does not consider published data regarding the WA 205 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 206

reported ability of primate embryonic stem cells to It has become clear that extension of the 2000-06 exhibit behaviour consistent with early primitive programmes cannot be done without incurring significant streak formation when grown at high densities; and additional costs and these costs cannot be met without how the density of cells within an outgrowing embryo reducing expenditure elsewhere. The programmes are compares to a conventional culture of embryonic closing and there would be additional administrative stem cells. [HL1766] costs in extending them. No free money has been offered by the European Community. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The devolved Administrations responsible for Scotland, Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): Wales and Northern Ireland, with proportionally larger Subsection 1(1)(a) of the Human Fertilisation and regional support budgets, accepted the offer believing Embryology Act 1990 defines an embryo as a live that they can benefit from the European Commission’s human embryo where fertilisation is complete. As I offer and that is their decision. stated in my Answer of 10 February 2009 (col.WA176), the embryonic masses that form when embryos outgrow Faith Groups their structure are not considered by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) to Question be embryos because they do not have the 3D organisation Asked by Baroness Warsi of an embryo, do not have a relationship between extra-embryonic and embryonic tissue essential for To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many normal development and do not develop a primitive faith-based advisory groups they have established streak. However, the HFEA regulates the creation and in each of the past five years. [HL1702] use of embryonic masses as part of its routine work of examining the creation, use and storage of all human The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, embryos at licensed centres. Department for Communities and Local Government The HFEA has advised me that its Scientific and (Baroness Andrews): The Faith Communities Consultative Clinical Advances Advisory Committee (formerly knows Council was established in 2006. The council brings as the Scientific and Clinical Advances Group) is of together representatives of the nine historic faith the view that the embryonic masses that form when communities living in the United Kingdom, and of embryos outgrow their structure would not develop a ecumenical and interfaith bodies; and is the main primitive streak but it is possible that primitive streak-like forum for discussion between government departments cells may be detected. I have no further comments on and faith communities. My department is presently the remarks of the Head of the Institute of Human collecting information on other faith-based advisory Genetics at Newcastle University. groups that Whitehall departments have established. I will write to the noble Baroness when this information Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool is to hand, and place a copy of my letter in the Library To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the of the House. Written Answer by Lord Darzi of Denham on 10 February (WA 176), whether cloned human Food: Pork and Bacon blastocysts corresponding to those described in the journal Nature (volume 439, pages 212-15) would Question always fall within the regulatory remit of the Human Asked by Lord Tebbit Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. [HL1767] To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord Darzi of Denham on Lord Darzi of Denham: Any embryo created in the 3 February (WA105), why they did not give statutory laboratory, regardless of its potential for development, force to the Food Standards Agency voluntary would fall within the regulatory remit of the Human guidance that bacon produced from imported pork Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. should not be described as British bacon. [HL1598]

EU: Regional Development Fund The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The Question Government did not give statutory force to the Food Asked by Baroness Quin Standards Agency voluntary guidance that bacon produced from imported pork should not be described To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they do as British bacon for the following reasons. The United not support an extension of the 2000-06 European Kingdom and the European Commission (EC) are Regional Development Fund programmes for English signatories to the World Trade Organisation agreements regions but support such an extension for Scotland, which stipulate that the country where the last significant Wales and Northern Ireland. [HL1871] change took place is the country of origin. Neither the UK nor the Commission can prevent in law a producer The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, labelling their product in accordance with this principle. Department for Communities and Local Government Furthermore, food labelling rules are harmonised in (Baroness Andrews): The department is only responsible the European Union and a requirement that bacon for the decision that affects the 2000-06 European could only be called British if it originated from British regional development fund programmes for the English pigs would intrude on EC competence. As I indicated regions. in my earlier answer, these rules are under review. WA 207 Written Answers[9 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 208

Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Non- Gambling governmental Organisations Question Question Asked by Lord Hanningfield Asked by Lord Lea of Crondall To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much new establishments have received gambling licences funding of United Kingdom development- or in each of the years since the Gambling Act 2005 democracy-related non-governmental organisations came into force; what is the total number for the came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office East of England; and how this is broken down by in the last financial year for which figures are county in the East of England. [HL1626] available. [HL1733] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord Carter of Barnes): Local licensing authorities are responsible for considering and issuing gambling premises The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth licences under the Gambling Act 2005 and providing Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): As detailed in the report information on premises licences to the Gambling on funding to UK-based third-sector organisations Commission. for the financial year 2007-08, the Foreign and The Gambling Commission has provided the following Commonwealth Office (FCO) provided £2,104,403 information on the number of new premises licences to UK development and democracy-related non- issued since 1 September 2007, when the Gambling governmental organisations (NGOs). The FCO recognises Act 2005 came into force, based on information provided that NGOs can play a vital role in supporting change by licensing authorities in England, Scotland and towards more accountable, responsive governance and Wales. The numbers presented are gross, and do not has used this funding to support development and reflect premises licences revoked, surrendered or otherwise democracy through a diverse range of projects. falling into abeyance.

Number of Premises Licences for the Total Number of Premises East of England (as defined by Number of Premises Number of Premises Period Licences granted Government Office Region) Licences granted for Norfolk Licences granted for Suffolk

1 Sep 2007-31 Aug 2008 8,481 834 176 101 1 Sep 2008 to present 426 36 6 6

Number of Premises Licences Number of Premises Licences Number of Premises Licences Number of Premises Licences Period granted for Essex granted for Cambs granted for Herts granted for Beds

1 Sep 2007-31 Aug 2008 284 60 124 89 1 Sep 2008 to present 13 5 5 1

The Gambling Commission has advised that full My honourable friend the Minister of State, Bill information has not yet been provided by 28 licensing Rammell, reiterated our concerns on 24 February authorities, one of which is in the East of England. 2009 (Official Report, House of Commons, col. 2004W) The comparatively large number of premises licences and we will continue to do so. issued in the year 2007-08 reflects the coming into force of the Gambling Act 2005 on 1 September 2007. Government: Accommodation Question Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Gaza To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether grace Question and favour accommodation occupied by Government Asked by Lord Dykes ministers is taxable as a benefit in kind. [HL1619] To ask Her Majesty’s Government when will The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury they resume their discussions with the Government (Lord Myners): The tax rules that apply when someone of Israel on the use of white phosphorus shells in is provided with accommodation because of his or her the recent military action in Gaza. [HL1675] office or employment are the same for government Ministers as for other taxpayers and would depend on personal circumstances. Guidance on the tax rules can The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth be found in HMRC’s employment income manual, a Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): We are concerned about copy of which can be found on HMRC’s website at reports into the use of white phosphorus in the recent www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM11331.htm. conflict in Gaza. We look forward to the results of the A booklet entitled MPs, Ministers and Tax, which investigation which has been launched by the Israeli covers related questions, has been placed in the Library Government. of the House. WA 209 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 210

Heritage: Minton Archive The total cost of implementing this communications plan to date has been about £300,000. Question Asked by Lord Howarth of Newport Petitions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they have now taken to secure the Minton Archive; Questions and what further steps they will take in this respect. Asked by Lord Greaves [HL1510] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for petitions the Department of Health received in Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord (a) 2007 and (b) 2008; what steps the department Carter of Barnes): KPS Capital Partners, LP, which has taken to publicise them; and whether they will has agreed to buy Waterford Wedgwood UK plc, has place the text of the petitions received and the not yet indicated its intentions regarding the Minton number of signatures in the Library of the House. Archive. A number of government and heritage bodies [HL1620] are working together to ensure that, if an opportunity To ask Her Majesty’s Government what procedures to acquire the archive arises, every effort may be made the Department of Health has for receiving, to preserve it intact and make it available to the public. acknowledging, dealing with and responding to The National Archives and the Business Archives petitions that it receives from members of the public. Council, with other partners, have produced proposals [HL1621] to address the longer-term issues posed by the vulnerability of business archives and these will be vigorously pursued The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, in view of the heightened risks to such material in the Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The current economic climate. department deals with petitions from members of the public as items of correspondence. Upon receipt, petitions NHS: Constitution are logged on to the department’s correspondence database and a letter of reply is prepared in line with Question the normal correspondence performance standards. Asked by Baroness Barker Receipt is not acknowledged unless specifically requested. As the database does not differentiate petitions from To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the other items of correspondence, the information on remarks by Lord Darzi of Denham on 23 February numbers of petitions requested by the noble Lord 2008 (Official Report, House of Lords, col. GC 27), could only be obtained at disproportionate cost. what is the extensive communications plan to communicate the NHS Constitution; who they Asked by Lord Greaves consulted in drawing up the plan; what is the estimated To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many cost of implementing the plan; and whether they petitions the Department for International will place a copy of the plan in the Library of the Development received in (a) 2007, and (b) 2008; House. [HL1722] what steps the Department has taken to publicise them; and whether they will place the text of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, petitions received and the number of signatures in Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): A the Library of the House. [HL1745] reference group of National Health Service communications leads representing the range of NHS Lord Tunnicliffe: The Department for International organisations (strategic health authorities, acute trusts, Development (DfID) received seven petitions in 2008 mental health trusts and primary care trusts) was and six petitions in 2007, mainly as a result of civil involved in developing the communications strategy society campaigning. DfID does not publicise these to support engagement with the NHS Constitution. petitions but we do post a reply to major campaigns A phased approach to communications has been on our website at www.dfid.gov.uk/news/campaign- put in place. responses.asp. The first phase is to lay the foundations for ongoing The text of these petitions can usually be found on communications. Part of this phase involves making the website of the civil society group organising the the constitution accessible to all, and supporting NHS campaign. A copy of the text of the petitions, along bodies in their work to promote the constitution locally with the number of signatures received, will be placed among staff and patients. in the Library of the House. The second phase focuses on engaging NHS staff with both their own rights and pledges and those of Asked by Lord Greaves patients, so that they are well placed and equipped to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what procedures have meaningful conversations with patients. This phase the Department for International Development has will be supported by a toolkit of resources, including a for receiving, acknowledging, dealing with and short film, posters, staff leaflet, messages for managers responding to petitions that it receives from members and induction, briefing presentation and an e-learning of the public. [HL1746] module. The third phase is to further engage patients and Lord Tunnicliffe: The Department for International the public so that they are aware of their rights and Development (DFID) mainly receives petitions from responsibilities, and the NHS’s pledges to them. members of the public supporting campaigns run by WA 211 Written Answers[9 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 212 civil society groups. We send a reply to the campaign Planning: Eco-towns organiser and post a reply on our website at www.dfid.gov.uk/news/campaign-responses. asp. Question If a petition which is part of a campaign is Asked by Lord Hanningfield accompanied by a covering letter from, for example, a school or a faith group, we also send a reply to the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the petition organiser. cost of the consultation exercise on the eco-town DfID occasionally receives petitions which are not proposals; and what has been the effect on the cost part of civil society campaigns. These are received, of the extension to 30 April. [HL1838] acknowledged, dealt with and responded to in the same way as other correspondence received by the department. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, A letter is sent to the originator of the petition confirming Department for Communities and Local Government receipt and addressing the issues raised. (Baroness Andrews): In terms of the cost of the consultation exercise I refer the noble Lord to the Answer given in the other place to the honourable Piracy Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Mr Shapps) on 23 February Questions 2009 (Official Report, House of Commons (col. 108W). This sets out the costs for the different elements of the Asked by Lord Tebbit eco-towns programme, which input into the Government’s To ask Her Majesty’s Government in which eco-towns consultation. jurisdiction, and under which laws, pirates captured The Government do not expect their extension to by Royal Navy forces were last prosecuted. [HL1600] the eco-town consultation to impact significantly on the costs of the programme. Importantly it will ensure The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth that all parties, irrespective of their views, are given Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The last pirates detained the full opportunity to have their say and consider the by the Royal Navy were those captured by HMS financial viability study on the eco-towns programme, “Cumberland” in the Gulf of Aden on 11 November which was published on 5 March 2009 and is available 2008. As piracy is a crime of universal jurisdiction, on Communities and Local Government’s website. they were transferred to Kenya for investigation. They have been charged with piracy offences under Kenyan law and are currently being prosecuted in Kenya. Police: Northern Ireland Asked by Lord Tebbit Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether piracy Asked by Lord Laird is an offence under the law of the United Kingdom; and what is the maximum penalty upon conviction. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they [HL1601] propose to remove any religious discrimination in the recruitment of officers to the Police Service of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Northern Ireland. [HL1781] of Justice (Lord Bach): The Piracy Act 1837 deals with piracy with violence; the punishment for piracy is life Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The Government are imprisonment. In addition, the United Nations committed to reaching 30 per cent Catholic composition Convention on the Law of the Sea 1982, which defines within the Police Service of Northern Ireland regulars piracy, was incorporated into UK law by the Merchant by 2010-11. When this target is reached the temporary Shipping and Maritime Security Act 1997, Section 26 50:50 recruitment provisions will end. and Schedule 5. Preventing Violent Extremism Pathfinder Places of Religious Worship Fund Question Question Asked by Baroness Warsi Asked by Baroness Warsi To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord West of Spithead on To ask Her Majesty’s Government which groups 12 February (WA235), which faiths and denominations have been funded under the Preventing Violent have met the criteria and are recognised by the Extremism Pathfinder Fund in each of the past Registrar General for the purposes of the Places of three years; and how much they have received. Worship Registration Act 1855; and how many [HL1706] places of worship of each faith and denomination have been registered. [HL1707] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home (Baroness Andrews): The preventing violent extremism Office (Lord West of Spithead): I refer the noble pathfinder fund provided £6 million in funding to Baroness to my Written Answer to her on 25 February around 70 priority local authorities in 2007-08. The (Official Report, col. WA 91). Secretary of State for Communities wrote to Paul WA 213 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 214

Goodman MP in January 2008 providing a list of Asked by Lord Hylton funded projects. A copy of this document was provided to the House Libraries. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they From 2008-09 funding to support local authorities’ expect to decide changes to the Parole Rules to give work to prevent violent extremism is paid through the greater flexibility in setting up panels. [HL1583] non-ring-fenced area-based grant. While we continue to work very closely with local authorities, both directly and through government offices, we cannot require Lord Bach: The Parole Board (Amendment) Rules them to report on the use of their funding. 2009 were laid before the House on Monday 2 March. The amendments will provide the Parole Board greater flexibility in the deployment of its resources so Prisoners: Parole as to cope with an increasing workload and reduce delays, particularly in relation to the appointment of Questions oral panels to consider the release of individual prisoners. Asked by Lord Hylton Asked by Lord Chadlington To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many prisoners serving life and indeterminate sentences To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many have not had their cases reviewed by the Parole prisoner hearings have been postponed by the Parole Board at a point three years before the expiry of Board in the past 12 months; and for how long, on their judicial tariff. [HL1581] average, they are postponed. [HL1604] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the the Parole Board and the Prison Service are taking reasons for the postponement of prisoner hearings to prevent delays in indeterminate parole reviews. by the Parole Board. [HL1605] [HL1582] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the cost of postponement of prisoner hearings by the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Parole Board. [HL1606] Ministry of Justice (Lord Bach): Under current policy, every life and indeterminate-sentence prisoner serving a sentence with a tariff of six years or more is entitled to have their case reviewed by the Parole Board three Lord Bach: In the current financial year there have years prior to the expiry of their tariff. The purpose of been 479 cases which were listed for hearing but postponed this review is to enable prisoners who have made good before the due date. In addition there were 339 cases progress to be transferred to open conditions prior to which went to a hearing but were adjourned or deferred the expiry of tariff, in order that the risk of harm they on the day. present may be tested in open conditions, to inform The average amount of time for cases that have the Parole Board’s decision on or post tariff expiry been postponed to be heard is 3.9 months. as to whether they might be released into the There are a number of reasons why prisoners’ hearings community. are postponed. In the report Protecting the Public: The To be able to confirm the number of prisoners who Work of the Parole Board published by the NAO in have not had their cases reviewed by the Parole Board March 2008, the main reasons were identified as at a point three years before the expiry of their l. Incomplete dossier. 2. The Board could not arrange judicial tariff would require a manual audit of all a panel. 3. Witness not available. 4. Key documents records of all such prisoners serving a tariff of six arrived too late. 5. Prisoner transferred to a different years or more. To undertake a manual exercise of this establishment. 6. Prisoner to complete a behavioural/ scale would incur disproportionate cost. However, educational course. modifications which are currently being made to the The cost of postponement of prisoner hearings by National Offender Management Service (NOMS) the Parole Board is difficult to calculate given the Public Protection Unit Database (PPUD) will enable broad variety of circumstances in individual cases. such information to be stored centrally, albeit in However, the NAO calculated that failures to release respect of those prisoners whose pre-tariff parole on time and the cost of administrative delays amounted review commences on or after 1 April 2009 and I will to £3 million for the nine months from 1 September write to provide you with that information at that 2006 to 1 June 2007. time. The National Offender Management Service, working Asked by Lord Chadlington in conjunction with the Parole Board, is devising a To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether staffing new and integrated parole process for considering the levels at the Parole Board have risen in accordance cases of prisoners serving life and indeterminate public with the increase in the prison population since protection sentences. The new system, which is due to 1997. [HL1607] be introduced from 1 April, is aimed at improving the effectiveness and efficiency of the process, with the performance of every agency being monitored centrally. This process brings for the first time a unified timetable Lord Bach: In 1997-98 the average number of staff with an overall end to end target, monitored by employed was 46 and this has risen in 2007-08 to 96 performance on PPUD. (108 per cent increase). WA 215 Written Answers[9 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 216

In 1997-98 the average prison population, as published Skills Council and is engaged with employers nationally, in Home Office statistics was 61,114. The most recently regionally, and locally to offer offenders education available comparative figure is for 2006-07 and is and training which will help them find employment on 79,734 (30.5 per cent increase). release. Subject to a risk assessment, prisoners approaching the end of a long sentence will be released on temporary Asked by Lord Chadlington licence to undertake training, community or paid work, To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many to attend job interviews and make other preparations long-term prisoners there are in England and Wales. for work and accommodation on release. There are [HL1608] also a range of short programmes which help prisoners with personal finance and family relationship issues. Prisoners receive help with meeting accommodation Lord Bach: At the end of January 2009 (latest needs. NOMS is currently working with key stakeholders available), there were 24,192 and 12,093 prisoners to pilot an initiative to enable prisoners to open bank serving determinate long-term and indeterminate sentences accounts while in custody. NOMS also works with the respectively in all prison establishments in England Department for Work and Pensions and Jobcentre and Wales. Plus to ensure that prisoners due to be released have Long-term prison sentences for the purpose of the appointments made with local jobcentres and benefits answer mean prisoners serving sentences of four years offices. And there are arrangements in place to ensure or more. continuity of healthcare for any ongoing medical needs. These figures are taken from Table 1 within the In 2007-08, the Prison Service exceeded its targets Ministry of Justice statistical bulletin, Population in for the percentage of prisoners released with employment Custody Monthly Tables, January 2009, England and (109 per cent against target) and accommodation (115 per Wales, copies of which can be found in the Libraries cent) on release. of the House and at www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ populationincustody.htm. These figures have been drawn from administrative Prisons: Northern Ireland IT systems, which, as with any large-scale recording Question system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Prisoners: Sentences current prison population in Northern Ireland; and by what percentage it is different from the same Question dates in 2008, 2007 and 2006. [HL1667] Asked by Lord Chadlington Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The Northern Ireland To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps prison population at 3 March 2009 and the percentage have been taken to ensure long-term prisoners are increases since the same date in 2008, 2007 and 2006 prepared for a return to the community when they are as shown in the following table: have served their sentences. [HL1603] % Population % Population % Population Population increase since increase since increase since The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry 3 March 2009 3 March 2008 3 March 2007 3 March 2006 of Justice (Lord Bach): The Government have implemented the offender management model for the 1494 0.7% 2.80 7.9% management of offenders in custody who are assessed as presenting a high risk of serious harm, are considered a prolific or other priority offender or who are serving Prisons: Population an indeterminate sentence for public protection. These Question groups are highly likely to be serving a long sentence. The offender management model requires a community- Asked by Baroness Warsi based offender manager to oversee the sentence from start to finish, paying particular attention to the transition To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the from custody to the community. The offender manager prison population in England and Wales in each of prepares a sentence plan to cover the custodial period the past five years, broken down by (a) ethnic of the sentence, ensuring that the offender receives the origin, (b) religious affiliation, (c) gender, and (d) age. interventions required to enable him or her to resettle [HL1570] in the community. Following release, long-term prisoners are subject to a period of licence when they will be The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry supervised by the probation service. of Justice (Lord Bach): Available information on the Subject to the requirements of the sentence plan, breakdowns requested of the prison population in which is based on an individual assessment of needs, England and Wales from February 2003 to June 2007 prisons participate in a range of accredited programmes (latest available) can be found in the tables below. designed to tackle offending behaviour and substance These figures are taken from published tables within abuse. The National Offender Management Service the Ministry of Justice statistical bulletin Offender (NOMS) works in partnership with the Learning and Management Caseload Statistics, copies of which can WA 217 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 218 be found in the Libraries of the House and at 2006 2007 www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ prisonandprobation.htm Male Female Male Female These figures have been drawn from administrative 25-29 11,361 708 11,665 662 IT systems, which, as with any large-scale recording 30-39 16,851 1,094 16,621 1,014 system, are subject to possible errors with data entry 40-49 9,368 606 10,106 612 and processing. 50-59 3,517 189 3,831 203 60 and over 1,725 40 1,978 49 Table C: Population in prison establishments (1) under (2) (1) Excludes police cells. sentence by age and sex, England and Wales, June (2) Including persons committed in default of payment of a fine. 2003-June 2007 (3) Data within the table are taken from the Ministry of Justice Statistical bulletin Offender Management Caseload Statistics, 2003 2004 2005 2007. Tables 7.3 refer. Male Female Male Female Male Female Data Sources and Quality

15-17 1,724 57 1,706 58 1,780 56 These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems, which, as with any large-scale recording system, are subject to 18-20 5,740 305 5,585 300 5,598 269 possible errors with data entry and processing. 21-24 10,112 670 10,095 632 9,949 612 (1) 25-29 10,441 702 10,738 727 10,982 679 Table A. Population in prison establishments sex 30-39 16,304 1,100 17,021 1,056 16,866 1,072 and ethnic group, 28 February 2003-30 June 2007 40-49 7,252 492 7,858 507 8,744 586 50-59 2,975 123 3,013 152 3,263 179 2003(2) 60 and 1,413 28 1,508 20 1,599 24 February over Males Females

2006 2007 Total 67,937 4,349 White 51,427 3005 Male Female Male Female Black 10850 1.101 15-17 1,814 50 1,827 56 South Asian 2.316 36 18-20 5,720 272 6,358 280 Chinese & Other 3266 206 21-24 9,624 552 9,864 475 Unrecorded 78 1

2004 June 2005 June 2006 June 2007 June Males Females Males Females Males Females Males Females

Total 70,036 4,452 71,676 4,514 73,519 4,463 75,451 4,283 White 48.275 3,007 53,608 3,217 53,972 3,165 55,238 3,012 Mixed 1,657 202 1,934 223 2.108 191 2,250 192 Asian or Asian 3,756 80 4,459 104 5,010 107 5,172 116 British Black or Black 9,234 809 10,294 875 10,922 883 11,186 830 British Chinese or Other 636 56 790 73 873 81 1,040 113 ethnic group Not stated 215 8 246 10 288 21 268 12 Unrecorded 79 2 39 3 61 0 55 1 1991 Census ethnic 6,184 287 305 9 284 15 242 codes

(1) Excludes police cells. Data Sources and Quality (2) Prior to 2004 the 1991 census ethnic codes were used. The These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems, Census 2001 categories replaced the 9+1 categories of the 1991 which, as with any large-scale recording system, are subject to census with 16+1 categories. Because of these changes possible errors with data entry and processing. comparisons between the two classifications should not be made. (3) Data within the tables are taken from the Ministry of Justice (1) Statistical bulletin Offender Management Caseload Statistics. Table B: Population in prison establishments by Tables 8.4 for 2005 and 7.21 for 2007 refer. religion (2), June 2003-June 2007

Number of persons 2003 June 2004 June 2005 June 2006 June 2007

Total 73,657 74,488 76,190 77,982 79,734 All Christian 42,463 41,438 41.154 40,827 41,406 Anglican 26,055 24,885 24,168 23,590 23,353 Free Church 1,418 1,299 1,258 1,193 1,224 Roman Catholic 12,750 12,984 13,304 13,340 13,912 WA 219 Written Answers[9 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 220

Number of persons 2003 June 2004 June 2005 June 2006 June 2007

Other Christian 2.239 2.270 2,424 2,703 2,918 Buddhist 947 1.133 1,237 1.432 1,609 Hindu 339 342 370 368 357 Jewish 184 181 197 187 231 Muslim 6,136 6,571 7,246 8,243 8,864 Sikh 490 498 543 579 608 Other religious groups 207 282 304 397 419 Non recognised 296 324 309 350 337 No religion 22,584 23,709 24,826 25,598 25.900 Not recorded 13 10 3 2 4

(1) Excludes police cells. Public Expenditure (2) Figures are recorded by the Prison Service on the Local Inmate Database (LIDS). Question (3) Data taken from Table 7.25 of the Ministry of Justice Asked by Lord Tebbit Statistical bulletin Offender Management Caseload Statistics, 2007. To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Data Sources and Quality Written Answer by Lord Myners on 13 January These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems, (WA 137) concerning the definitions of public sector which, as with any large-scale recording system, are subject to current expenditure and public sector net investment, possible errors with data entry and processing. whether they will disaggregate pay and other current expenditure when referring to total spending on programmes such as social security, education and health care. [HL1039] Public Bodies

Questions The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury Asked by Lord Selsdon (Lord Myners): Public spending by both function and economic category has now been published on To ask Her Majesty’s Government which members the Treasury’s website at www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/pes of the House of Lords are appointees to the non- _function.htm. departmental public bodies listed under “Communities Functional categories are based on the UN and Local Government” in annex A to the report of classification of the functions of government (COFOG), the Cabinet Office entitled Public Bodies 2008; and the international standard. Economic categories are what was their appointment and individual based on the treatment of spending in the national remuneration. [HL1798] accounts. These figures differ from departmental spending analyses because they include local government and public corporations as well as central government, and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, devolved Administrations as well as English departments. Department for Communities and Local Government Not all public spending can be allocated to a function (Baroness Andrews): This information is not held centrally. so these figures are based on an aggregate called total Information on board membership and remuneration expenditure on services. This is spending within total is published in individual bodies’ annual reports and managed expenditure (TME) that can be allocated by accounts. function. It covers most expenditure included in TME Asked by Lord Selsdon but excludes some accounting and other adjustments that cannot be allocated to a function. More information To ask Her Majesty’s Government which members on total expenditure on services can be found in of the House of Lords are appointees to the non- appendix E of Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses departmental public bodies listed under “Food 2008—PESA—available at www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ Standards Agency” in annex A to the report of the pespub_pesa08.htm. Cabinet Office entitled Public Bodies 2008; and what was their appointment and individual remuneration. [HL1841] Questions for Written Answer Question The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Asked by Lord Jopling Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The Food Standards Agency is responsible for seven non- To ask the Leader of the House what new steps departmental public bodies (NDPBs), six of which are she has taken to ensure that Questions for Written covered by the report for the period up to 31 March Answer are answered within the target two weeks; 2008. A seventh NDPB was established in April 2008. and what were the total numbers which did not There were and are no Peers appointed to any of these meet the target for each day in the week beginning NDPBs. 23 February. [HL1761] WA 221 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 222

The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall in response to concerns from the research community, of Blaisdon): I place the utmost importance on ensuring reintroduced a financial cap on its first grants scheme that Questions are answered in a timely manner, and so as to be able to support more researchers early in have taken the matter up personally with Front-Bench their careers. This follows an increase in demand for colleagues and relevant Permanent Secretaries. My these grants and in the average amount of funding office wrote recently to departmental private offices to being sought. Further details about this change are reinforce that message. available at www.epsrc.ac.uk/Content/News/First During the week of 23 February, the following GrantsChanges.htm. numbers of Questions were unanswered:

Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday 23 February 24 February 25 February 26 February St Andrews Agreement Total due for Total due for Total due for Total due for Question answer = 37 answer = 28 answer = 55 answer = 53 Total Total Total Total Asked by Lord Laird unanswered = 25 unanswered = 13 unanswered= 35 unanswered = 28 To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on Science: Chemistry Grants 11 February (WA 206) concerning provisions in the Question St Andrews agreement relating to cross-border Asked by Lord Dykes implementation bodies, whether the review outlined in paragraph 19 of Annex A has taken place; if so, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what conclusions what was the result; or if not, when it will take they have reached following discussions with chemical place. [HL1716] scientists on countering falls in the number of successful first-time chemistry grants in the United Kingdom. [HL1811] Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: I understand that a review, as set out in paragraph 19 of annexe A of the The Minister of State, Department for Innovation, St Andrews agreement, is currently taking place. This Universities and Skills (Lord Drayson): The Engineering is a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive and the and Physical Sciences Research Council (EPSRC) has, Irish Government. Monday 9 March 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. Airports: Economic Regulation ...... 71 No. Television Licence Fee Regulations...... 73 Armed Forces: Nimrod...... 72 Local Transport Act 2008: Quality Partnership Schemes... 73 Women: Violence...... 74

Monday 9 March 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Anglo Leasing ...... 191 Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Non-governmental Organisations...... 207 Armed Forces ...... 191 Gambling...... 208 Armed Forces: Personnel ...... 191 Gaza ...... 207 Audit Commission: Complaints...... 192 Government: Accommodation...... 208 Bailiffs ...... 192 Heritage: Minton Archive...... 209 Children: Care ...... 195 NHS: Constitution...... 209

Children: Poverty...... 196 Petitions...... 210

China: Tibet...... 197 Piracy...... 211 Places of Religious Worship...... 211 Civil Service: Bonuses ...... 197 Planning: Eco-towns...... 212 Compensation: Pleural Plaque...... 198 Police: Northern Ireland ...... 212 Conflict Prevention Pool...... 198 Preventing Violent Extremism Pathfinder Fund ...... 212 Co-operation Ireland ...... 199 Prisoners: Parole ...... 213 Department for International Development: DEL...... 199 Prisoners: Sentences...... 215

Drugs: Degradable...... 203 Prisons: Northern Ireland...... 216 Prisons: Population...... 216 Electoral Register: Northern Ireland...... 204 Public Bodies ...... 219 Embryology ...... 204 Public Expenditure ...... 220 EU: Regional Development Fund...... 205 Questions for Written Answer...... 220 Faith Groups ...... 206 Science: Chemistry Grants...... 221 Food: Pork and Bacon ...... 206 St Andrews Agreement ...... 222 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL1039] ...... 220 [HL1553] ...... 192

[HL1435] ...... 197 [HL1554] ...... 193

[HL1510] ...... 209 [HL1555] ...... 193 Col. No. Col. No. [HL1556] ...... 194 [HL1667] ...... 216

[HL1557] ...... 194 [HL1675] ...... 207

[HL1558] ...... 195 [HL1686] ...... 202

[HL1568] ...... 192 [HL1687] ...... 203

[HL1570] ...... 216 [HL1688] ...... 203

[HL1578] ...... 196 [HL1689] ...... 198

[HL1579] ...... 197 [HL1700] ...... 195

[HL1581] ...... 213 [HL1702] ...... 206

[HL1582] ...... 213 [HL1706] ...... 212

[HL1583] ...... 214 [HL1707] ...... 211

[HL1586] ...... 197 [HL1716] ...... 222

[HL1587] ...... 200 [HL1722] ...... 209

[HL1588] ...... 201 [HL1733] ...... 207

[HL1589] ...... 201 [HL1745] ...... 210

[HL1590] ...... 201 [HL1746] ...... 210

[HL1591] ...... 191 [HL1761] ...... 220

[HL1598] ...... 206 [HL1764] ...... 204

[HL1600] ...... 211 [HL1765] ...... 204

[HL1601] ...... 211 [HL1766] ...... 205

[HL1603] ...... 215 [HL1767] ...... 205

[HL1604] ...... 214 [HL1781] ...... 212

[HL1605] ...... 214 [HL1798] ...... 219

[HL1606] ...... 214 [HL1811] ...... 221

[HL1607] ...... 214 [HL1815] ...... 203

[HL1608] ...... 215 [HL1821] ...... 199

[HL1619] ...... 208 [HL1838] ...... 212

[HL1620] ...... 210 [HL1841] ...... 219

[HL1621] ...... 210 [HL1853] ...... 191

[HL1626] ...... 208 [HL1871] ...... 205

[HL1643] ...... 198 [HL1936] ...... 191

[HL1659] ...... 195 [HL1964] ...... 204 Volume 708 Monday No. 43 9 March 2009

CONTENTS

Monday 9 March 2009 Questions Sports Clubs ...... 945 EU: Middle East Peace Process ...... 947 Archaeology...... 949 Pensioners: Savings...... 951 Business of the House Motion on Standing Orders...... 954 Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Registration of Regulated Activities) Regulations 2009 European Parliamentary Elections (Franchise of Relevant Citizens of the Union) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 Representation of the People (Amendment) Regulations 2009 Motions to Approve...... 954 Northern Ireland Bill Second Reading ...... 955 Northern Ireland: Massereene Army Base Statment ...... 994 Banking: Asset Protection Scheme Statement ...... 1003 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] Committee (Seventh Day) ...... 1013 Grand Committee Health Bill [HL] Committee (Fifth Day)...... GC 381 Written Statements...... WS 71 Written Answers...... WA 191