[ASSEMBLY.]

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE i[prgwtatwur Aiarmbhl 1. and 2. These questions were postponed. Thursday, the 17th October, 1963 PASTORAL LEASES CONTENTS BILLS- page Acreage, Sheep Carried, and Carrying Betting Control Act Amendment Bill- Capacity Sr...... 1788 Corn...... 1787 3. Mr. NORTON asked the Minister for Report ...... 17110 Lands: Fire Brigades Act Amendment Bil- (1) What is the total acreage of each Sr...... 1740 of the following pastoral leases:- Message : Appropriation ... .. 1752 Milgum; Milly Milly; Meeberrie; Government Railways Act Amendment Boolathana; Landor; Lyons Bill- River; Billabalong; Minilya; Sr...... 1153 Boolardy; Wooleen? Corn. ; Report ...... 1754 42) What number of sheep are cardied Land Act Amendment BWl- at the present time on each of 2r...... 1759 the above stations? Corn -...... 1782 Report ...... 1783 (3) What is the recognised carrying Railway (Portion of Tambullup-Ongerup capacity of each station? Railway) Discontinuance and Land Re- Mr. BOVELL replied: vestment BHIl-Sr...... 1752 Rural and Industries Bank Act Amend- (1) The acreages of the following ment 11ill-3r...... 1749 pastoral stations are- Spencer's Brook-Northanm Railway Ex- (acres) tension Bill- Mfilgun 744,855 Sr...... 1750 Milly Milly 758,518 Message :Appropriation .1. .. 1752 Meeberrie 455,740 Supply BUi (No. 2), £22,000,00- Boolathana .... 395,064 Standing Orders Suspension ...... 1754 Landor 862,945 Message :Appropriation ... 1754 Lyons River 299,651 committee of Supply ...... 1754 Billabalong 324,404 Committee of Ways and Means ...1755 Minllya 676.111 Intro. ; Ir...... 1755 Boolardy (including 2r...... 1755 "Manfred") 849,745 Corn. ; Report .. 1755 Wooleen .. 465.485 Sr...... 1755 Totalisator Agency Board Bettlng Act (2) The number of sheep carried on Amendment Bill- each station as assessed in early Sr...... 1755 1963 were- Corn. ; Report ... 1759 (sheep) QUESTIONS ON NOTICE- Milgun .. 14,000 Drainage of Mt. Lockyer Area-Provision Milly Milly 8,000 of Finance...... 1747 Meeberrie 21,000 Education-Bluff Point School : Tenders, Boolathana . ... 14,000 Site, and Architects...... 1747 Landor .. 12,000 Government Contracts to FIrms-Number Lyons River 8,000 and Value since 1959...... 1748 Bilabalong .. 12,000 Harbour, Geraldton-Avalablity of Minflya I.. .. 25,000 American Expert's Report t 747 Boolardy (including Hospital, Albany Regional- "Manifred") 25,000 Appointment of Resident Medical Wooleen .. 17,000 Officer...... 1747 Extension of Physiotherapy Service .. 1747 (31 The recognised carrying capacity Local Government ElectIons-Withdrawal of each station on the basis of of Nominations...... 1747 full development and normal Pastoral Leases-Acreage, Sheep Carried, seasons is-- and Carrying Capacity ...... 1746 (sheep) QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE- Milgun 23,000 Ord River Crops- Milly Milly 19,000 Subsidy Requirements .... . 1748 Meeberrie 20,000 Payment of Subsidies...... 1749 Boolathana .. 20,000 Parliament House-Air Conditioning of Landor 34,000 Assembly Chamber...... 1748 Lyons River 13,000 Pastoral Leases-Station Acreages 1748 Billabalong 12,000 Thomas & Co., W.-Takeover . . .1748 Minilya 42,000 Boolardy (including "Manf red") 30,000 Wooleen 18,600 The SPEAKER (Mr. Hearman) took the Chair at 2.15 p.m.. and read prayers. 4. This question was postponed. [Thursday, 17 October. 1963.3 1747

ALBANY REGIONAL HOSPITAL LOCAL GOVERNMENT ELECTIONS Extension of Physiotherapy Service Withdrawal of Nominations 8. Mr. JAMIESON asked the Minister re- 5. Mr. HALL asked the Minister for presenting the Minister for Local Gov- Health: ernment: (1) Has there been any alteration to- How does he reconcile his answer wards extra space for the physio- to question No. 13 (2), on Trues- therapy service at the Albany day, the 15th October, 1963. with Regional Hospital? section 98 (1) of the Local Gov- (2) If not, will he have the matter in- ernment Act, 1960? vestigated so that alterations can be made if justified? Mr. LEWIS replied: It is considered that there is no in- Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: consistency between the answer (1) and (2) No; but the matter is be- given and section 98 (1) of the ing investigated by the depart- Local Government Act. 1980. ment. hence there is no need to recon- cile the two. Appointment of Resident Medical Officer 9. This question was postponed. 6. Mr. HATT asked the Minister for Health: GERALDTON HARBOUR (1) Has reconsideration been given to the appointment of a resident Availability of American Expert's Report medical officer at the Albany 10. Mr. SEWELL asked the Minister for Regional Hospital; and, if so, Works: what are the determinations? When will the report of the Ameri- (2) If reconsideration has not been can expert who was commissioned given and determination not by the Government this year to made, will he have the matter report on the Geraldton Harbour reinvestigated and evidence taken and approaches be made available? from public sources? Mr. WILD replied: Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: The report has not yet been con- (1) and (2) It is not contemplated sidered by Cabinet as it. is await- at present to station a resident ing further advice, and it will be medical officer at the Albany Re- available early next week. gional Hospital The staffing of the hospital is at 11. This question was postponed. present adequately catered for by private medical practitioners in DRAINAGE OF MT. LOCKYER AREA the area. it may be necessary in the future Provision of Finance to reconsider this matter. 12. Mr. HALL asked the Minister repre- senting the Minister for Housing: (1) Has the State Housing Commission BLUFF POINT SCHOOL made a decision on the amount of Tenders, Site, and Architects finance to be made available for the much needed drainage work 7. Mr. SEWELL asked the Minister for in the Mt. Lockyer area, Albany? Education: (2) If no decision has been made, will (1) Can he give the approximate date he undertake to have finality for the calling of tenders for the reached so that the work can be construction of the Bluff Point cardied out during the summer Primary School? period to secure the maximum re- (2) On which site will the new school sult? be built? Mr. ROSS HUT1CHINSON replied: (3) Who are the architects for the new (1) and (2) The commission has re- building? ceived from the local authority an engineering report on the drain- Mr. LEWIS replied: age of the Lockyer Estate and is (1) Approximately March, 1964. now in consultation with the Public Works Department and the Local (2) The new site, reserve 23035. Government Department prelim- (3) Howard Bonner and Associates. inary to making a decision. 1748 1748[ASSEMBLY.]

GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS TO ORD RIVER CROPS FIRMS Subsidy Requirements Number and Value since 1959 2. Mr. OLDFIELD asked the Minister for the North-West: 13. Mr. JAMIESON asked the Premier: (1) Did the Minister see the report in (1) What contracts and of what value this morning's newspaper regard- have been let to J. & E. Ledger ing subsidies required for all crops Pty. Ltd. since the Brand Gov- at the Ord River in order to make ernment took office in 1959? them profitable? (2) If so, is this in accordance with (2) What contracts and of what value fact? have been let to the following firms since the Brand Govern- Mr. COURT replied: ment took office in 1959:- (1) and (2) 1 am afraid that if I were to give the honourable member a (a) Tomlinson Steel Ltd.; complete answer to the report of (b) Forewood flown W.A. Pty. Dr. Davidson's lecture, it would be Limited; ruled out of order by the Speaker. I think it is too general a question (c) Structural Engineering Co. of to be answered in one or two W.A. Pty. Ltd.; brief sentences. (d) Vickers Hoskins Pty?. Ltd.; Suffice it to say we are confident about the future of the Ord River (e) Hadfnelds (W.A.) 1934 Ltd.? scheme based on the advice of our advisers, in whom we have com- Mr. BRAND replied: plete confidence. Contracts and authorised pur- chases approved by the Tender PASTORAL LEASES Hoard for Government and rail- way stores were:- Station Acreages 3. Mr. KELLY asked the Minister for Number Value Lands: f (1) What is the acreage of Weedarra (1) 14 42,320 Station? (2) What area is held by Lyons River (2) (a) 59 336,417 Station? (b) 14 39,160 (3) Are either or both areas included (c) 13 16,889 in the acreage of Bidgemia Sta- (d) 15 36.656 tion, given as 956,290 acres? (e) 22 291,950 Mr. BOVELL replied: I wish to record my appreciation of the honourable member in giv- ing me prior notice of this QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE question. The answers are as PARLIAMENT HOUSE follows:- (1) Weedarra Station is not known, Air Conditioning of Assembly Chamber officially, in the records of the De- 1.Mr. OAYF'ER asked the Speaker: partment of Lands and Surveys. Is it proposed to install any form (2) An area of 299,651 acres. of air conditioning in this Cham- (3) It is understood that an area ber during the building operations, which could be known as Wee- improvements, and renovations darra Station. but not officially, taking place to Parliament House I onns part of Bidgemia Station at present? lease, which comprises a total The SPEAKER (Mr. Hearman) re- area of 956,290 acres; Lyons River plied: Station is not included in the Bidgemia Station lease. The matter of air conditioning generally has been under --" WV.THOMAS & CO. sideration by the House Commiit- Takeover tee for some considerable time. I 4. Mr. CORNELL: I am wondering think I could say that there are whether to address my question to no immediate plans for air con- the Premier or to the Minister for ditioning in either Chamber. Con- Industrial Development. I refer siderable difficulties have been en- to the recent takeover by an countered in conneflion with air Adelaide-based company of W. conditioning, and it is a matter Thomas & Co. I would like to which the House Committee has know whether the House can be in mind. informed that this is a genuine [Thursday, 11 October, 1983.] 1749

takeover by the Adelaide com- which. if affected through a private insurer. pany, or whether the company is would require payment of fire brigade in- merely acting as hatchet-men for surance: and (c) it provides for procedures an overseas corporation? as sought by the underwriters-insurance The SPEAKER (Mr. Hearman): To companies-and agreed to by the Fire whom is the honourable member Brigades Board for arriving at the amount directing his question? to be Paid by any one insurance company. Also, the experience of the Fire Brigades Mr. CORNELL: I will try the Premier. Board over recent years, particularly in Mr. BRAND replied: connection with new companies, makes it I will round off the honourable desirable that certain administrative pro- member's question by saying that cesses Instituted over the years in connec- I will have the Minister for Justice tion with premium returns from insurance examine it and endeavour to companies should be specifically catered obtain the information. for in the Fire Brigades Act. It has been found over the years that 01D RIVER CROPS the method adopted in returning premiums by the insurance companies to the Fire Payment of Subsidies Brigades Board has not been satisfactory; 5. Mr. OLD)FILD asked the Minister for and a good deal of confusion arises in the North-West: regard to new companies coming in, and (1) Is it intended to subsidise the crops even with the old companies, who find produced at the Ord River? that the methods adopted are somewhat (2) If so, who will pay the subsidy- antiquated. the Commonwealth Government or The field of insurance exhibits a chang- the State Government? ing pattern occasioned by the growing Mr. COURT replied: complexities of business and industry, (1) and (2) So far as the existing and the Bill provides for flexibility in concerned, operations by providing for the policies farmers and crops are and Proportions of policies to be declared there is no present intention to by Order-in-Council: and again, this is subsidise these crops. As the in accordance with the wishes of the in- honourable member knows, there surance is a cotton bounty paid in Aus- companies and the Fire Brigades tralia, which has been renewed by Board. the Commonwealth Government In regard to the variation of contribu- for a further term of five years. tions that I mentioned, I would point out This has been renewed on different that the rates of contribution to fire terms, but on terms that are brigade costs since 1898 have been as fol- highly satisfactory to the Ord lows:- River farmers. Fire Brigades Act 1898-Fire Brigades Board, Perth, W.A.- RURAL AND INDUSTRIES BANK Municipalities (Perth ACT AMENDMENT BILL only) ...... 4/9ths W.A. Government .. 1/9th ThLird Reading Insurance companies .. 4/9ths Bill read a third time, on motion by District Fire Brigades Act, 1909- Mr. Bovell (Minister for Lands), and Local authorities .. 3/8ths transmitted to the Council. W.A. Government .. 1/4th Insurance companies . 3/Oths FIRE BRIGADES ACT So it can be seen that down through the AMENDMENT BILL Years the contributions were altered to Second Reading those applying at the present time, which MR. ROSS HUTCHINSON (Cottesloe- are as follows:- Chief Secretary) [2.29 P.m.]: I move- Fire Brigades Act, 1941- That the Bill be now read a second Local authorities ... 2/Sths time. W.A. Government ... 2/Sths Insurance The Bill which is now before the House companies . 5/Sths does three things-C(a) it varies the rate In Passing, I think it should be noted that of contributions paid to the Western Aus- the Acts Amendment (Fire Brigades Board tralian Fire Brigades Board by the Gov- and Fire Hyrdrants) Act, 1951, relieved ernment, local authorities, and insurance local authorities of Paying the cost of new companies; (b) it includes the State Gov- fire hydrants, and repairs to hydrants in ernment Insurance Office in having to fire districts. Under that Act these costs make additional contributions towards are borne by the board. the financing of the activities of the Fire Over the past years the Chief Secret- Brigades Board through fire risk com- ary-whoever he was, and including the ponent on comprehensive motor vehicle late Gilbert Fraser-has been subjected to insurance and any other policy or cover demands on the one hand by the Local 1750 1750[ASSEMBELY.)

Government Association for a reduction step. The Government eventually con- in its 2/9ths rate of contribution and, on cluded that the S.0.I.0. should be re- the other hand, from the insurance com- sponsible, with other insurance companies, panies for a drop in their 5l9ths contri- and the Royal Automobile Club. for its bution. Naturally enough insurance com- fire risk component in comprehensive panies are opposed to any increase in the motor vehicle insurance and other insur- 5/Sths contribution that they pay at pre- ances carrying a fire risk component. sent. It is apparent this state of affairs I would point out to the House that the would continue unless some basis or R.A.C. contributes to the W.A. Fire Bri- formula could be found. gades Board each year a sum of money The rates of contribution to Fire Bri- exceeding £5,000 by a fairly substantial gades Boards vary In each State and, in amount because of the fire risk component fact, in Victoria there are variations with- in its motor vehicle insurance policies. in the State, and It was decided to adopt Therefore, it seemed only fair to include an average of all the States. In some the S.0.I.0. I should also explain to States there are minor ways in which the House that the S.G.I0. payments to changes are made to the general pattern, the W.A. Fire Brigades Board in respect which rather confuses the issue of deter- of the local authority pool is only in the mining clearly how full contributions are vicinity of £600 per annum. met in each of the States. However, in I would like to point out that at pre- trying to arrive at a formula, it was de- sent the fire risk component for com- cided to adopt an average of all the States. prehensive motor vehicle insurance is 3 The Treasury Department was asked to per cent. With the passage of this Bill. and did examine the various rates in and under regulations, it is intended that each State and calculated the contri- this figure be reduced by Order-In-Council bution percentages as are contained in the to 2J per cent. I submit the Bill to the Bill, having regard for as many of the House for its consideration. minor variations as was possible. Debate adjourned, on motion by 'Mr. Another basis for averaging was put Hall. forward by the Treaisury, more in line SPENCER'S with Grants Commission procedure, and BROOK-NORTHAM which would have involved insurance com- RAILWAY EXTENSION BILL panies in an even higher rate of contri- Second Reading bution, whereby an average would have MR. COURT (Nedlands-Minister for been struck between the standard States Railways) (2.40 p.mn.]: I move- of New South Wales and Victoria to ar- rive at a formula which could have been That the Bill be now read a second adopted under this measure. However, it time. was decided that perhaps in all fairness The Railway Standardisation Agree- we should keep to the average of all the ment Act No. 26 of 1961 and the schedule Australian States. thereto, which is the agreement between Mr. W. Hegney: Do you use the -average the State and Commonwealth, makes pro- of the other States or do you Include vision for the construction of associated Western Australia? narrow gauge works, as set out in the sec- ond schedule to the agreement. Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON. We included Western Australia. When the agreement was framed, the proposal was to divert the Great Southern Mr. W. Hegney: You include the six- Railway front a point in the vicinity of the whole lot? Burges siding, across the Avon River, and Mr. ROSS HUITCHINSON: Yes. In us- run it more or less parallel to the ing the average of the Australian States Northamn-York road to a point east to establish a basis for periodical reviews of East Northam, where a new Nor- by Parliament, it is felt requests for tham marshalling yard was to be estab- changes. would be ruled out at least until lished; thence through East Northamn, and 1967. as these contributions will apply for ioinizrr In with the duial gauge to Mid- ahe-erperiod, becoming effective lnnd via. the Avon Valley. The line be- from next year, and in that way all parties tween Bellevue and Nort ham via Spencers will' Thow where they stand. These new Brook, and to the take-off point near averr-rcs will be 64 per cent., 20 per cent., Eurges would then be lifted. However, and 16 per cent., -and it will be found that to maintain rail connection to the the insurance companies will have to pay Nertharn flourmill and the oil companies, molre, the Local Government Association it would have been necessary to retain will pay 2 and a fraction per cent. less, the r~ilway betwe-en East Northam and whilst the Western Austrpaln Government Northam. with its bisection of the town. will he more rdvnnt~qe6 by paying aP- When the Bill was presented to the prox-iately 6 per cent, less. IYoire for authority to construct the stsv- Fi"~lly. in regard to the inclusion of the &l~rd gauge railway, the altaration to the Stpte Government Insurance Office. I 3 ft. 6 in. railway at Northeam WAS would like to say that very serious eoin- delihrrately omitted, as the Railway De- sideration was given before taking this partment and the Government were [Thursday, 17 October, 1903.] 1751 not satisfied that the original con- (vii) Construct a new station and ad- cept was the best arrangement both ministrative buildings near East on the score of railway efficiency, Northam. and the Interests of the town of Northam. (viii) Construct a passenger halt on the I invite the attention of members to new line between west of Northam the first schedule of the agreement be- and the new yard, alongside the tween the Commonwealth and the State Great Eastern Highway. which sets out, at the bottom of the first (ix) Reduce the size of the present schedule, the following:- Northam yard. The routes of the associated narrow To maintain a siding connection to the gauge railway works are- fiourmill and oil companies situated be- Approx. tween Northam and East Northam. it will Main Line be necessary to retain the shunting line Mileage. connection from Northam. However, nego- (a) East Northam to Mid- tiations are now in train between the local land on the same route authority and the two oil companies con- as the standard gauge cerned, for relocation of their depots. If in the railway ..- 59 this eventuates, the only street town that will be crossed by rails will be (b) Necessary deviations in Charles Street. it is realised that Fitz- the Northern and gerald Street at the eastern end will be Great Southern Rail- crossed by the standard gauge, but this is ways in the vicinity of unavoidable. Northam ...... 15 The new line covered by this Bill will '74 cross over Fitzgerald Street at the west- ern end by means of a bridge, cross the For the reasons I have explained, the Avon River, and carry on over the Great agreement was not specific as to the actual Eastern Highway also by means of a bridge. route to be followed in (b). As subse- The Toodyay road will be crossed by means quent events have proved, it was desir- of a level crossing. able that it should have been in this f orm. Members will appreciate that because Investigation extending over some of the bridge over the Great Eastern months was carried out; discussions were Highway there will be no impediment to held with interested parties, including the vehicular traffic along the Great Eastern local authority; and finally an altered ar- Highway. The closing of the existing rangement was agreed on which was suit- railways between Bellevue and Spencers able to all concerned, including the Com- Brook. and from a point near Northam to monwealth. In this regard copies of the East Northam, will be the subject of a proposed route have been made available further Bill at an appropriate later date. locally for the people to see, and, at the The only other comment I want to make time, it was mentioned to the local member is that if we are successful in our negotia- who is the Leader of the Opposition. Brief- tions between the local authority and the oil ly the proposal is as follows:- companies, it will mean a tremendous (i) Reverse the junction at Spencers thing for the town of Northam. because it Brook, so that trains from the will enable the local authority to replan Great Southern Railway can run a part of the town which has become very direct to Northam. congested. The Government has under- (ii) Provide a new delivery siding at taken, once this matter has been clarified, Spring Hill. that there will be consultations between (!i) Make use of the existing railway the Government and the local authority as between Spencers Brook and Nor- to the use to which this land will be put. tham. This, of course, is contingent on the (iv) Construct a new railway from a oil companies' sidings being removed. We point west of the existing Nor- have investigated the economics of discon- thanm yard, across the river and tinuing the rail siding into the oil terminals, the Great Eastern Highway to a and using a pipeline from where the siding new marshalling yard to be built goes into the flourmill, but the economics just north of the Northam sewer- of this did not prove to be very successful. age depot between the Toodyay I think in the long-term interest of the Road and the river. town it would be desirable if arrangements (v) Remove the main line rails be- could be made with the oil companies for tween East Northam and the the removal of their siding, as this would existing Northam yard. substantially aid the development of the (vi) Build a 3 ft. 6 in. line along the town. After the adjournment of this route of the standard gauge be- motion has been taken I propose to table tween East Northam and this new a Plan required under section 96 of the yard so that trains from Goomal- Public Works Act, together with the Trans- ling can run into the new yard Port Board's report required under the and thence to Perth. State Transport Co-ordination Act. [ASSEMBLY.]

Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr. investigation and survey work by the Hawke (Leader of the Opposition). Lands Department, and this should be co- Tabling of Papers ordinated with similar work needed on the short section between Yougenup and White- Mr. COURT: With your permission, Mr. head Roads. Speaker, I would like to table plan No. Prior to the proclamation of closure of 53377 as required under section 96 of the the Onowangerup-Ongerup line, an urgent Public Works Act, together with the report request was made by the Onowangerup of the Commissioner of Transport under Shire Council for early action to be taken; section 11 (7) of the State Transport Co- and the committee has expressed a desire ordination Act. to see the two sections dealt with at the The papers were tabled. same time. It was Presumed that the small section remaining within the railway reserve could BILLS (2): MESSAGES be excised by a recommendation and order- Approypriation in-council: and in view of the urgency of allowing the Lands Department to pro- Messages from the Lieutenant-Governor ceed with the necessary investigation and and Administrator received and read re- survey work, the matter was submitted for commending appropriation for the pur- approval. poses of the following Bills:- I duly endorsed my approval, but subse- 1. Fire Brigades Act Amendment Bill. quently the Commissioner of Railways 2. Spencer's Brook-Northam Railway advised that Crown Law felt this area Extension Bill. would have to be dealt with by a special piece of legislation as it did not come within the land covered by the Railway RAILWAY (PORTION OF Discontinuance Act of 1960. The following RAILWAY) minute was addressed to me by the com- TAMBELLUP-ONGERUP missioner:- DISCONTINUANCE AND LAND Ref erence is made to my memo dated REVESTMENT BILL 15th May, 1963, at folio 1 hereunder Second Reading regarding the proposed termination of the Tambellup-Onowangerup railway MR. COURT (Nedlands-Minister for at the south-western alignment of Railways) [2.50 p.m.): I move- Whitehead Road instead of Yougenup That the Bill be now read a second Road, as provided in the Railway Dis- time. continuance Act, 1960, and particularly After T have completed the introduction of to paragraph 5 wherein it was sug- this measure I will seek your permission, gested that this could be effected by Mr. Speaker, to table a plan setting out Order in Council. the exact piece of land affected by this This matter has been discussed with closure Bill. It is very complicated to ex- an officer of the Crown Law Depart- plain in words; and, although it is not ment and the opinion has been ex- required by Statute, I think i% desirable Pressed that a further Closure Bill is you agree to the tabling of a plan setting necessary. out the exact area that will be affected As this particular section of the when this Bill becomes an Act. It is a railway is within the Onowangerup small piece of land. Townsite, considerable interest has The Railway Discontinuance Act. 1960, been shown in the land which will be provides for the closure of the Onowan- available to local business people and gerup-Ongerup railway commencing at the the Lands Department is anxious to south-western alignment of Yougenup Road proceed with the survey and necessary in Onowangerup to the end of the railway subdivision of the area. This of course reserve at Ongerup. As a result of repre- cannot be done until the land has sentation from the Onowangerup Shire reverted to the control of that Depart- Council, it has been decided that termina- ment. tion of the railway would be best effected beyond Onowangerup station on the south- Under the circumstances, the commissioner western alignment of Whitehead Road. recommended we proceed to have the nec- essary legislation passed. This was sub- Although the section of the line between sequently approved by Cabinet and the Yougenup and Whitehead Roads is not Bill is now submitted to Parliament to within the jurisdiction of the Closure of have this small portion of railway closed. Lines Committee under the previous Act it is most desirable that early action be The Plan which I will table indicates taken to implement a decision on release the amount of land involved is 1 acre of the railway reserve in this section. The 0 roods 25.9 Perches. Members will realise committee is dealing with the portion Of it is a comparatively small piece of land, the railway reserve within the townsite of but without it the survey that is taking Onowangerup from Yougenup Road east- place would not be as effective; nor would wards, requiring a considerable amount of the redevelopment be as effective. [Thursday, 17 October, 1963.1 151753

I ask permission, Mr. Speaker, to table of justice, because when railway employees the copy of plan No. 54007, which shows take risks when doing their work they very in red the land affected by this closure often do so in the interests of the prin- Bill. cipal who, in this case, is the Commis- The plan was tabled. sioner of Railways. Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr. By and large, the only people who gain Brady. when these risks are taken and got away with, are the principals--in this case the GOVERNMENT RAILWAYS ACT Commissioner of Railways. So, in order that justice might be done, it is only AMENDMENT BILL reason able that the commissioner should Second Reading be prepared to make aL greater payment Debate resumed, from the 15th October, than the limit in section 39, as in the case on the following motion by Mr. Court which occurred in recent years, of £6,000, tMinister for Railways), either gratuitously or by some other That the Bill be now read a second method, if risks are being taken. time. I recollect that some years ago when I was a railway union organiser and sec- MR. BRADY (Swan) [2.56 p.m.]: Since retary, I travelled from Mingenew to the Minister introduced this Bill to amend Dongara-no doubt the Premier has heard two sections of the Government Railways of that place-on a small trolley which Act I have had a look through his speech. a length runner was operating prior to conferred with a number of railway a train going through. For the first 10 unions, and done a certain amount of re- or 15 miles I enjoyed that trip, but my search in regard to the position. As far suspicions were then aroused when every as I can see, no harm can be done by five or six miles the length runner pulled the deletion of section 39 of the principal up the trolley and walked to a rise to look Act which, as the Minister said, provides some distance away. for a limit of £6,000 for the loss of life or limb In the event of an accident. I asked him then why be continued to The Minister told us that in a case of stop the trolley and take a look at the recent times-I think in 1961-a person view in the distance. He said "To tell who I think was a railway employee, you the truth, Jack, there is a train due elected to sue his fellow employees rather along this length any time and I do not than accept the £6,000 which the commis - have my watch with me; and I am not sioner was prepared to pay. The employee too sure where that train is; therefore I apparently took the view that as the other want to see the smoke if I can". For the employees were somewhat negligent in rest of that journey I was uneasy and did regard to the accident in which he sus- not enjoy it, because I did not know when tained his injuries, he could get a greater a train might run us down. sum than £36,000. I am mentioning that incident to in- Subsequently, after some negotiations dicate that that was a case in point. That between the employees, the unions, and particular length runner, in the line of the commissioner, the matter was satisfac- duty, was running a length of railway torily resolved. It is nice to know that without his watch which, apparently, was an understanding was arrived at in regard in the workshop for repairs. He was pos- to that matter and that a 'nan, who I sibly saving the railways thousands of understand is now permanently disabled Pounds by establishing whether any rail for life, will receive reasonable compensa- was dislodged, or there were plate diffi- tion. culties, thus being able to avert any serious All I have to say is this: It is desirable accident. He was prepared to take risks that the amendment should go through, in the interests of his employer-the because it will now give a person who is principal. injured in similar circumstances the option I do not know what these particular of suing the Commissioner of Railways or employees were doing at Darkan. It has the employees if the negligence is on their been said to me that the accident under part. it does not take out of the Act discussion took place near Collie, at a the right of a person injured to sue em- Place called Darkan; and It was a wet ployees in the case of negligence, but It and windy day, when the elements were does provide an opportunity for an injured causing great difficulties to railway em- person to receive a greater sum of money ployees. Under those conditions certain than £6,000 from the principal who, in this risks were taken which did not come off. case, is the Commissioner of Railways. An accident resulted and a man was per- No doubt, 99 out of 100 persons who may manently disabled. It would appear that be injured would elect to sue the commis- justice will be done if, in the future, such sioner for greater damages rather than people can be adequately compensated. sue the employees. While this increase If this provision is repealed, that will may seem a magnanimous gesture rm. the be the Position; and so I have no objec- part of the commissioner, it Is only one tion to its repeal. I ASSEMBLY.]

The second amendment deals with the I would, however, stress that neither alteration of the name of the endowment the conmnissioner nor the employees are fund. it is being changed from the West- exposed to danger of litigation unless there ern Australian Government Railways has been negligence. I am not quite right Employees and Tramnways Employees' there. They are not exposed to damages Death Benefit and Endowment Fund to if there has been no negligence. They the Western Australian Government Rail- could be exposed to litigation because some ways Employees' Death Benefit Endow- people go to law whether they have a ment Fund Incorporated. The tramnways good case or not. In such event both the have been omitted from the name of the employee and the commissioner could be fund now because they have gone by the exposed to litigation with all the attend- wayside. However, the word "Incorpor- ant difficulties and costs. But where there ated" is included now; and I take it that has been no negligence, the employee is this fund has now been legally registered not exposed-nor is the commissioner- and incorporated and will have some legal to any threat of costs or award by the obligation to pay out of its funds certain court; and for that reason there is no endowments in certain circumstances. danger in leaving the law as it will be For many years this fund has operated. when amended. I suppose it has operated for the best Question put and passed. part of 40 to 50 years; and there was a Bill read a second time. time when railway empiloyees were not In Committee, etc. obligated to join it. They could join it or not, and many employees elected not Bill passed through Committee without to do so. However, in 1934 an amendment debate, reported without amendment, and was made to the Railway Act under which the report adopted. railway employees are now bound to join the fund. In the circumstances, there- SUPPLY BILL (No. 2), £22,000,000 fore, it is only reasonable that they should be fully protected legally and that the Standing Orders Suspension fund should be known by its proper name. MR. BRAND (Greenough-Treasurer) For that reason I support this amend- [3.10 p.mn.: I move-- ment. That so much of the Standing I would like to draw attention to the Orders be suspended as is necessary fact that-and this has operated since to enable resolutions from the Com- 1934-when an employee joins the rail- mittees of Supply and of Ways and ways, if he can prove he has other ade- Means to be reported and adopted on quate cover in the way of insurance or the same day on which they shall other endowment policies which will give have Passed those Committees; and him the equivalent of what he would re- also the passing of a Supply Bill ceive if he were to join the railway fund, through all its stages in one day. he can be released from the obligation to Question put and passed. join. I can see no objection to either of the Message: Appropriation amendments outlined in this Bill and I Message from the Lieutenant-Governor therefore support it. and Administrator received and read recommending appropriation for the Pur- MR. COURT (Nedlands--Minister for poses of the Bill. Railways) [3.6 Pi.]': I thank the lion- In Committee of Supply ourable member for his support of this The House resolved into Committee of Bill. We on this side consider it to be Supply, the Deputy Chairman of Com- a desirable measure in the light of the mittees (Mr. Crommelin) in the Chair. circumstances which occurred in connec- tion with the 1961 case. MR. BRAND (Greenough-Treasurer) The honourable member referred to the [3.12 P.m.]: I move- fact that anyone who was Injured could That there be granted to Her claim against the employee as well as Majesety on account of the services of the commissioner. That Is so. But we the year ending the 30th June, 1964, could not pass a Statute which provided a sum not exceeding £22,000,0 00. otherwise, because if we did it would leave This motion is moved on the occasion of the position so wide open that it would a Supply Bill; it is a. formal matter. In be very unsatisfactory from the point of view of the opportunities for discussion view of all parties. The fact is. as men- on the Estimates, I simply move as I have tioned by the member for Swan, that in indicated. 99 cases out of a hundred-if not in a hundred out of a hundred--a person MR. HAWKE (Northam-Leader of the with a claim would obviously claim against Opposition) C3.13 p.m.]: it Is true, as the the commissioner, because if he were suc- Treasurer has said, that the Budget debate cessful he would not only obtain costs is still current in Committee, and the in- but also the award the court ranted in dividual departmental estimates are stil respect of his particular case. to be considered. Furthermore we had a [Thursday, 17 October, 1963.1 151755

Supply Bill-the first one of the session MR. TONKIN (Melville-Deputy Leader -some seven or eight weeks ago. There- of the Opposition) [3.22 p.m.]: 'The pro- lore it is not my intention this afternoon posal in this Bill is to enable the board to debate the question of supply as cov- to extend its operations in a way which ered by the Bill which the Treasurer will I consider might be desirable in the in- introduce later this afternoon. terests of those people who wish to wager during race days. Whilst I am prepared Question Put and Passed. to Support the proposal, I am going to Report make some suggestions in connection with It where I think alterations are desirable. Resolution reported and the report adopted. For some reason or other the board will not be fair to those who do business with In Committee of Ways and Means it, and it adopts practices which ordinarily The House resolved itself into a Com- are not adopted by people who wager on mittee of Ways and Means, the Deputy horse racing. It seems to me that those Chairman of Committees (Mr. Crommelin) practices are always in the board's in- in the Chair. terests, and never with an eye to being fair to both parties. To illustrate what I mean, I will read regulation 33 to the MR. BRAND (Greenough-Treasurer) House; and if we agree to this proposal [3.14 p.m.]: I move- in the Bill, the board will be running That towards making good the sup- doubles which will be covered by this regu- ply granted to Her Majesty for the lation. it reads as follows:- services of the year ending the 30th Where a person bets with the board June, 1064, a sum not exceeding on the double totalisator he shall be £17,000,000 be granted from the entitled to a refund when- Consolidated Revenue Fund;, and £5,000,000 from the. General Loan (a) the horse in the first leg of Fund. the double is scratched or withdrawn regardless of whe- Question put and passed. ther the horse in the second Report leg of the double wins or loses or does not start. Resolution reported and the report That is in accordance with general prac- adopted. tice. Continuing- Introduction and First Reading (b) the horse in the second leg In accordance with the foregoing reso- of the double Is scratched or lutions, Bill introduced, on, motion by Mr. with.1drawn before the first leg Brand (Treasurer), and read a first time. of the double is run, regard- Second Reading less of whether the horse in the first leg wins or loses. MR. BRAND (Greenough-Treasurer) That is in accordance with general prac- [3.18 p.m.]: I move- tice; there is nothing wrong with that. That the Bill be now read a second Continuing- time. (c) the horse in the first leg of Question put and passed. the double wins and the horse in the second leg is scratched Bill read a second time. or withdrawn after the run- In Committee, etc. ning of the first leg of the double. Bill passed through Committee without There is nothing wrong with that; it debate, reported without amendment, and is in accordance with general practice. the report adopted. There are no further provisions. That Third Reading means that If a bettor takes a double and the second leg is scratched after the race Bill read a third time, on motion by in which his first leg has run and lost, he Mr. Brand (Treasurer), and transmitted loses his money. That is contrary to all to the Council. betting practice. The basic principle in wagering on horse racing is that if one has no chance of winning one should not TOTALISATOR AGENCY BOARD lose. I will state that again because per- BETTING ACT AMENDMENT sons unfamiliar with wagering would not appreciate the point, which is: If a bet- BILL tor is wagering on horse racing and he Second Reading risks his money, he shall not lose his money unless he has a chance to win. Debate resumed, from the 24th Septem- That is to say, one does not rob a bettor. ber, on the following motion by Mr. Craig One does not take his money and say: (Minister for Pollee)-. "I have got your money now, no matter That the Bill be now read a second what happens." The bettor has to have time. a chance to win. 1756 1756ASSEMBLY.]

Let us examine what takes place in money back and he does not win any- practice. If a bettor goes out to the race- thing; but if the first leg loses and the course and takes a double-that is, he second leg is scratched, he loses his money. takes a horse in each of two races-then If the board indulges in totalisator betting if the first horse wins and the second one in doubles it should rectify that point. is scratched he does not just get his money because the present practice is not fair. back, but the money back multiplied by It is contrary to the fair and accepted the odds of the first horse. Therefore, the principle that a bettor should have a bettor has had a chance to win something. chance to win if he has a chance to lose; But if the first horse loses, the bettor loses that has been the accepted rule of betting his money. He has had a chance to win ever since I can remember. It should not something because if the first horse wins, depend on the time when the owner irrespective of what had happened to the scratches the horse. second one, he gets some winnings. The position is entirely different it a That is not so with the Totalisator person bets anti-post. In the case of Agency Board, because if the owner of doubles which are conducted on the Caul- the horse in the second leg has made up field Cup and the Melbourne Cup, cir- his mind the day before the race that culars containing prices are received from he is going to scratch his horse, but then the Eastern States week after week. I leaves the scratching to the last minute understand that bookmakers in Western when he goes on the racecourse, he abides Australia cannot bet on that double, but by the rules, and if he happens to scratch those operating in the Eastern States send bis horse after the race in which the bet- circulars over here and a lot of money tor has taken the double has been run and goes to the Eastern States on that double. the first leg has lost, that bettor loses his The bettor loses his money If one of his money even though he had no possible horses is scratched, because he gets the chance of winning. anti-post price, which is a far longer price than the all-up starting price, and he Mr. O'Connor: The regulations have takes the risk of the horses he selects being been altered to prevent an owner from scratched in order to take advantage of withdrawing a horse so late. longer price. This betting is on the basis Mr. TONKIN: I have not got the regu- of all-in. If the punter is lucky enough lation, and I do not know what time has to have two starters he has the advantage been specified. of much longer odds than those which Mr. O'Connor: I think the regulation would be paid on the days of the two provides that the horse must be with- races. drawn before 10 a.m. on the day of the But the doubles conducted by the board race. in this State are taken on the day of the race, and the bettor receives no better Mr. TONKIN: That would not cover odds. Therefore, the principle of anti- the bettor who had bet at 9 a.m., so the post betting does not come in, and these position still remains the same. It may bets should not be on the basis of all-in. be somewhat difficult for persons who have I submit that in common fairness the pro- had no experience of this kind of wager- vision with regard to a doubles bet ought to ing to follow what I am trying- to illus- be this: If either horse is scratched-and trate: but the basic principle of wagering the bettor has no chance of getting the is that a bettor must have a chance to double in-he should have a chance either win before he loses. to get his stake refunded, or to win. A With the bookmakers on the course. simple rule can be made to provide that if a bettor takes a double. As soon as he a bettor takes a double, and either horse takes it, so long as he gets one starter is scratched, the bet is off: the rule should out of the two, he has a chance to win. not be that the bet is only off if the first If the first leg wins and the second leg leg wins. That is what the board, in fact. is scratched, the bettor gets the starting now does, because if a bettor takes a price to the stake he put on the first race. double and the second leg is scratched, So he has had a chance to win. But if the bet is only off if the first leg wins. the first leg loses and the second one is So the punter has to pick the first win- scratched, the bettor has lost his money, ner, without any chance of winning if the and he cannot complain, because he has second leg is scratched. This practice is had a chance to bet the winner on the very unfair and ought to be altered in first leg. the interests of the punters, I had to Conversely, a bettor takes a double with smile when this legislation was introduced. the Totalisator Agency floard. The first race is coming up; but he has found out Mr. Craig: I saw you smile. -although it is not yet official-that the Mr. TONKIN: I was tickled to think the owner of the second leg is going to scratch board was seeking an amendment of the his horse. The bettor knows that before law. It would have been acting in ac- the race is run. He cannot get his money cordance with its usual practice if it had back, so he has to let the stake remain run doubles irrespective of the law. Up to ascertain whether the first leg wins. to date, it has shown scant regard for If the first leg wins, the bettor gets his the law. [Thursday, 17 October, 1963.] 175775

Mr. Craig: Do not spoil a good speech! Mr. TONKIN: It will certainly be to Mr. TONKIN: The Minister knows what the punter's advantage. I suppose the poor I am saying is true. Firstly there was the returns on all-up betting were caused by situation where the board decided to limit the practice of the board in deducting the the Eastern States dividends. The case 15 per cent. from each leg of the wager, finally went to court and the judge told and a large slice of the money invested the board that it could not limit those was taken by the board as a result of dividends. Subsequently the board dis- this double commission. I came to the continued that practice, but it hung on to conclusion that the board made a double the money it had received in the mean- deduction, because it could not avoid do- time. Then there was the matter which ing so as the Act stands. I dealt with last night. Another disadvantage which now occurs with all-up betting is that the prices of I was a little amused to think the board. horses chosen in the second leg are be- on this occasion, is asking the approval of Ing depressed severely by the dispropor- Parliament to conduct this type of betting, tionate volume of money invested on the so we seem to be making some progress. course on those horses. That has resulted It is gratifying to note the board recog- in a much lower dividend to course nises that these matters should be cov- patrons, as well as to off -course patrons. ered by the law, and that the law should So I consider the proposed alteration is be obeyed. very desirable in the interests of those As matters stand, the all-up betting is who patronise the doubles form of bet- most unsatisfactory and most unfair to ting, and we should agree to it. the bettor. I hope the Minister can fol- With regard to quinellas, It would be low what I am about to say, because I have quite impossible for the board to collate no experience on these points, nor has any- the information and convey all the money body told me anything about them. I to the course. It is desirable in principle assume that with all-up betting which now that the Totalisator Agency Board should takes place, when a bettor invests 5s. on put as much money through the totalisa- one horse all-up on another in a later race, tors as it can, and to hold as little as pos- the board deducts 15 per cent, from the sible, although in agreeing to the doubles stake in the first race, and if the first leg proposal I am running counter to that wins it deducts another 15 per cent. from idea. However, I consider the advantages the second stake, and 15 per cent. from to be derived justify the change. This will the winnings as well. mean that instead of the money being put Mr. Craig: I understand that to be so. on the totalisator on the racecourse, the board will conduct a totalisator in accord- Mr. TONKIN: That Is a tremendous de- ance with totalisator principles. The only duction. The deductions make up a great drawback is that the volume of money on portion of the money Invested. local races which ordinarily will go through the totalisator on the racecourse, Mr. Craig: That is why the board is instituting doubles betting. is to be retained by the board. Because of the disadvantages of the Mr. TONKCIN: If a bettor invests 5s. he present system, It is desirable that the loses 15 per cent. as a deduction by the change proposed in the Bill be made. With board on the first leg of the wager. If regard to qulnella betting, I can see it he picks a winner on the first wager then would be quite impracticable unless the the return goes on to the next race, when quinella was closed a considerable time a further 15 per cent, is deducted. If the before the race on which the quinella was second horse wins another 15 per cent, is conducted, was run to get the informa- taken out of the winnings from the first tion from all the various agencies and have investment. That is to say if the bettor it collated; and then to determine the picks a 4 to 1 winner in the first instance amount of wagers which would have to be the board gets 15 per cent of the 5$. he made on the course, would make the invested, and then on behalf of the bet- thing so unwieldy as to be most unattrac- tor the board invests the dividend of 255. tive. on the Second leg. The board then deducts 15 per cent. of that 25s. invested on the Mr. O'Connor: There would be the like- second leg. This is a ludicrous state of lihood of errors, I should think. affairs. Mr. TONKIN: We should take cognis- Mr. Craig: That is why we want to dis- ance of the fact that in dealing with such continue that form of betting. a multiplicity of wagers the possibility is that errors would be increased. Quinella Mr. TONECI: The doubles form of bet- betting is an attractive form of betting ting proposed in the Bill will alter that because of the possibility of getting a fairly state of affairs in favour of the punter. I substantial dividend. I have no objection take it that under this form when 5s. is to that being done. invested on a double there will only be one I was a little amased at an assurance deduction by the board of 15 per cent. given by the Minister. This Is becoming Mr. Craig: That is quite correct. a figure of speech rather than an assertion. 1758 1758ASSEMBLY.]

So much so, we have to disregard assur- lose his money. If the Minister will have ances. Let us listen to what the Minister something done about that, I would have had to say, and I quote from the notes of no reservations with regard to the pro- the Minister's speech, as follows-- posal. To the backer, the double is more Sitting suspended from 3.45 to 4.5 p.mn. acceptable than an all-up for a win, as there is only one commission de- MR. CRAIG (Toodyay-Mlnister for ducted for the double as against two Police) [4.5 p.m.]: I thank the Deputy for the all-up, It is felt that a very Lender of the Opposition for his comments limited amount of quinella betting in in connection with the Bill, and I might local races and trots--and I can assure say how nice it is to hear agreement be- members it will be very limited-will tween that side and this side of the House be very acceptable to the Investing on a matter connected with the Totali- public, sator Agency Board. A little thought will show that the Min- The purpose behind the Bill, of course, ister is not in a position to assure that is to endeavour to improve not necessarily at all. It was a foolish statement. As a the facilities but the arrangements for bet- matter of fact, it will inevitably result In ting for those who like to bet; and perhaps an increase in wagering. Its very objective the main feature is the substitution of the is to make doubles betting more popular doubles type of betting for all-up betting. because the present results, owing to the As the honourable member has pointed Totalisator Agency Board taking too large out, all-up betting poses a double applica- an amount in commission, are poor and tion of the 15 per cent. deduction cover- therefore unattractive to a lot of discern- ing tax and other incidental charges. ing bettors. But with the commission Mr. H. May: What do you call all-up being substantially reduced, and the pos- betting? sibility of increased dividends as a result, there will be an increase In this form of Mr. CRAIG: This was explained when betting. So it is just too silly for the I moved the second reading, as best 1 Minister to start assuring the H-ouse that could, and it was amplified by the Deputy this amount of betting will be limited. Leader of the Opposition. A bettor selects two horses in separate races, or one horse One will have only to get the figures in, that is competing in two races; and he say, 12 months' time and compare the invests his money on the horse in the first volume of betting on doubles and quinellas race; and, if it wins, the total winnings. with what it will be in, say, a week or including the original Investment, are then two's time, and one will see that it 'will invested on the same horse, or a second gradually develop and increase in volume. horse in another selected race. That is to be expected. Mr. H. May: Every time I have a bet, I simply point that out in order to em- it goes up-in smoke. I was wondering phasise the ease with which assurances what all-up was. are given which cannot possibly be met. Mr. CRAIG: Therefore the doubles It is like the assurance which the Minister form of betting will probably be more at- for Lands gave me a year or two ago. He tractive to the honourable member be- assured me that the board was putting on cause it imposes the 15 per cent. deduction -the tobtalisator all the raoney it could on only one occasion. Possibly put there. I was in the court and I heard the chairman of the board tell the The Deputy Leader of the Opposition court that after 30 minutes before the has drawn attention to certain features of start of the race no betting from any doubles betting that do not make these agency which was under £2 was sent to proposals over-attractive; or, in other the racecourse. That was said by the words, the attraction could be improved chairman himself. Yet here a Minister if the bettor had the possibility of his rises in this House and gives an assurance investment being returned to him through that all the money that was procurable the scratching or the non-starting of a was being sent to the racecourse and was horse selected in one of the two races. being put through the totalisator. Perhaps one way of looking at it is that with the doubles type of betting the in- No wonder I complain about these as- vestor realises, of course, that he has to surances when they are so empty. I think take a bigger risk, and he knows he Is Ministers should be more careful, when taking a bigger risk because he is selecting they are giving assurances, to see that two horses to win. In doing so he also they are in accordance with what can be realises he is going to get a better price; carried out or in accordance with fact. he is certainly going to get a far better I hope the Minister will have a look at price than by making his investment on that regulation now that he is going to an all-up type of bet. However, for all permit the board to run these doubles as that, there are certain features connected against all-up bets and so provide that the with this type of betting to which atten- punter shall have as fair an opportunity tion has been drawn by the honourable as he can get in betting: that is, if he has member that I cannot help but feel do no chance of winning, then he should not appeal to me. Naturally I will have to [Thursday, 17 October, 1963.) 176975 seek some guidance and information on the honourable member for his support of this matter from the board, but if it is the measure and I commend it to the in accord with the honourable member's 'House. views I can arrange for further considera- Question put and passed. tion to be given to his suggestions in an- Bill read a second other place. time. Had it been possible for this particular In Committee, etc. point to be made to me beforehand I could Bill passed through Committee without no doubt have had the information avail- debate, reported without amendment, aud able today; but we all realise how much the report adopted. the Deputy Leader of the Opposition has been tied up with other debates in this House. LAND ACT AMENDMENT BILL As stated, it is the desire of the board Second Reading to carry out these proposals because it Debate resumed, from the 5th Septem- considers they are in the interests of the ber, on the following motion by Mr. Bovell public generally. As I interjected when the honourable member was speaking, I (Minister for Lands): thought he was spoiling a very good speech That the Bill be now read a second by referring to assurances from this side time. of the House. I can think of no reason MR. KELLY (Merredin-Yilgarn) [4.15 why he should doubt any assurance from pm.]: This Bill follows very closely on me, personally. Perhaps the assurance to the recommendations of tbe Pastoral which he referred was my reference at the Leases Committee; and although the terms second reading; but that could have been of reference were wide, I think it is rather construed as an assumption- unfortunate that the evidence should have Mr. Tonkin: A Pious hope would be been taken by a committee instead of by better. a Royal Commission. As it is there was Mr. CRAIG: -and not necessarily an no need for any sworn declarations, The assurance, because I was only giving a evidence that was given was given volun- personal opinion that the formation of tarily and, in many cases, compiled from doubles betting would not necessarily in- very considerable and old records of very crease the incidence of betting. I can little value in so far as current require- assure him-and I trust he will accept this ments are concerned. Nor was the com- assurance-It is not my intention, nor is mittee able to glean a great deal of sub- it the Government's intention, that the stantiated information in compiling its incidence of betting should increase. I report. based my assumption on the belief that So the fact that there is no sworn evi- this type of doubles betting-with, say, a dence throughout the entire examination s. double-will be far more appealing to detracts very considerably from the value the smaller type of punter, particularly of the report in general. In saying that, the pensioner, who will have the oppor- I wish to emphasise at once that in no tunity of selecting two horses at reason- way do I cast any aspersions on the men able odds, or very much better odds than concerned who, to my way of thinking. it would be possible to obtain by a 5s. gave us a very interesting document. I investment on a single race. east no reflection whatever on their in- Mr. Oidfleld: They have to win, of tegrity, or their conducting of their exami- Course. nation. I know them all very well per- sonally. For that very reason my com- Mr. CRAIG: In Victoria, where the plaint is not against the actual findings, T.A.B. conducts such a pool, it was found or against the activities of these people. that roughly one-third of the total in- vestment on the T.A.B. was of this type I would refer to one or two of the mat- of betting. Therefore, it can be con- ters that this committee gave as reasons strued that it was at the expense of other for some of the actions taken, and for types of betting, although I might be some of the comments made, because I feel wrong. As was Pointed out by the Deputy it is comments of this kind which high- Leader of the Opposition, only time will light the committee's report as being of tell. However, I feel that this form of very little actual value in assessing the betting will be very acceptable to those future of the industry, a future bound up whbo patronise the T.A.B., and we are only by this Bill an a 50-year basis, with an instituting it as a result of the many re- extension of 33 years on top of the pres- quests that have been made f or it. ent leases held. I understand that before the introduc- It is matters such as this which high- tion of the T.A.B. in this State this par- light the ineffectiveness of a report, par- ticular type of betting was very Popular ticularly when we use such a report as a indeed, and so we are only complying with basis for legislation which is to govern this the requests of the betting public. In industry, which has been one of our most doing so we are cancelling out another important industries for a very long time. type of betting, all-up betting. I thank I refer to a comment which was made at 1651 1760 [ASSEMBLY.]

p. 29 of the report and which deals with year for E150,000. A third one was pur- cattle stations. I only make this com- chased in 1955 for £60,000, and is now ment because I desire to highlight how under option to an Eastern States com- little intrinsic value there is in a lot of pany for £200,000. the matter we have before us. Speaking In the face of those figures it is very on cattle it says- hard to bring our thoughts to the stated fact that this industry, over a period of Submissions by a group of pastoral 30 years, has been able to return only companies disclosed substantial ex- the very low average of 3 per cent. It penditure on water, fencing, and is more difficult to understand when we other improvements during the past find that there are plenty of people who 10 years with good prices. Although are willing to go on to these properties. it has been freely conceded that in spend a year or two on them, and later good times, i.e., good seasons and mar- find People who are Prepared to pay almost kets together, the financial returns double the figure for which they were from cattle stations can be high, a note originally purchased, in a period of only of warning has been sounded that the a few years. Statements of that kind, risks in the industry cannot be under- coming as they do in the early portion estimated. The protracted effects of of the report, rather dampen one's en- drought, unstable markets for cattle, thusiasm for the veracity of a lot of the and rising costs of operations and im- material and evidence that was given to provements are always threats to the committee. profitability. Turning to sheep, we find that the mem- ber for Gascoyne asked a series of ques- This is rather an extraordinary part of tions here today in connection with ten the report, because it continues- sheep stations in various parts of the The extraordinarily high prices for State. The total area of these ten stations cattle over the past few years (by was 5,800,000-odd acres. The present comparison with earlier years) have carrying capacity of that total area is largely offset the effects of drought 156,000 sheep. The estimated carrying years and avoided heavy losses. At capacity-and I do not know how they the same time several pastoralists arrive at this carrying capacity, because have contended that the average an- there does not seem to be any yardstick nual return for the past 30 years is of measurement to assess the value of the equivalent to only about 3 Per cent. on country-varies from ten acres to the the capital invested. sheep to 50 acres to the sheep. Here we have an industry that has con- The estimated carrying capacity of that tinued for a great number for years, and area would be 237,000 sheep. In other a report is made on the statements given words, there are 30,000 or 40,000 sheep to the members of the committee in vari- under this carrying capacity. It is re- ous directions. That is one of those state- markable that over not a very long period ments. there should be this treniendous discrep- ancy in the actual figures that were car- The people who gave evidence-again I ried some few years ago on many of these say unfortunately not sworn evidence- properties examined recently. have made the statement that over a I can speak authoritatively in connec- period of 30 years cattle stations have tion with one particular station-namely, made only 3 per cent. on capital invested. Lyons River-where in my own time we I ask members what incentive there would had 21,000 sheep, some 650 head of cattle, be to remain in an industry that was re- and about 27.000 kangaroos. The area of turning only 3 per cent. What person that country was in the vicinity of 290,000 would have two bob invested in an industry acres, and there was no difficulty in carry- of that kind? Who would want to con- ing sheep in those numbers. Today, In tinue to face the rigours of the north, and reply to questions, we find that this carry- the difficulties that confront people with ing capacity is now at the very low figure stock over certain times and in certain of 8,000 sheep. According to the formula years. if there were only an average re- of acres per sheep they should only carry ward of 3 per cent.? It is ridiculous that 12,000 or 13,000 sheep. I very definitely something of that nature should creep into say that I would far sooner have a pro- a report. perty understocked than overstocked. I took the trouble to ascertain a few of Apparently there is a vast difference in the particulars covering stations that the territory today, as compared with a have changed hands during the last few few years ago when I knew it very years. I find that one particular station thoroughly. was purchased in 1952 for £18,000, and So these matters, appearing as they do sold in 1954 for approximately £35,000-- in this report, and under the conditions very nearly double the initial value of the in which the report was taken, make it property. The second property I had oc- very difficult for us to assess accurately casion to single out was one purchased In just what the position Is. Had the inquiry 1956 for £60,000, and sold in this current been conducted by a Royal Commission [Thursday, 1? October, 1963.) 176176 we would then have known that the evid- have a full knowledge of what is taking ence was given and there was something place from a figure point of view. It Is to substantiate It; that It was not a matter a well-known fact, too, that all account- of a chat over a cup of tea or in any other ants on behalf of their clients put their congenial amosphere that might have been best foot forward in an endeavour to make arranged by the mere visit of these gentle- the income of the person for whom they men to some of the 30 stations they visited. are working face up to the best light pos- It is easy to let one's imagination run riot, sible as far as taxation is concerned. particularly when people have been on a We find that in this report much of the property for a long time, and particularly matter which has been used as reasons when one is sitting in a shed or on a nice for this, that, and something else, has cool verandah or patio, and when one is emanated from sources I have described. reminiscing on the station's ability to Therefore it is rather a pity that so much carry stack, or whatever other subject credence should be placed on a report of might be under discussion at the time. this kind. This Bill is of great importance We could also visualise -a lot of this to Western Australia, and I am sorry that report being made-as it was--in an ac- the information upon which it is based has countant's well-appointed suite of offices; come from the sources I have mentioned. and his knowledge of the particular sta- Undoubtedly the committee covered long tion would be based purely and simply distances. I did have a rough run through on figures he had audited; and this, to the plan and it looked as though the my way of thinking, would not have members of the committee would have the value of a statement made under pro- travelled 8,000 to 10,000 miles and, during per conditions, in the proper place, and that time, visited about 30 stations. How- with visual examination being possible. ever, the report makes no mention at all Under those conditions we would be able of the circumstances under which members to pinpoint the main factors that any of the committee made their investigation Royal Commission would have been able in connection with some of the most im- to disclose, had one examined the position. portant features in a Bill of this nature. There is no information from the com- As it is now, there is no authentication mittee that it made an inspection of the of the records contained in this nicely unimproved back country of many of the prepared report, because they are only the properties visited. There is no mention -result, as I said before, of discussions over of the type of country visited or any of a friendly cup of tea or meeting. Ap- the details I think are necessary when we parently there was little examination in are going to be faced with a calibration any way at all. I know from experience of the type of country and the carrying that records produced under the same con- capacity of the country that was ex- ditions as those under which we know this amined. report was produced would be quite hap- Mr. Bovell: The Surveyor -General has hazard. Records on the majority of sta- had a life-long experience of the whole of tions are not kept continuously. There are Western Australia. He has been in the occasions when bookkeepers are changed Surveyor -General's Office all of his work- and the new man does not get into the way ing life. of running things; where a little laxness creeps in with regard to the obtaining of Mr. KELLY: The outlook of the present data; where the rainfall record is missed Surveyor-General Is not the same as the altogether: and where sheep have been outlook of the previous Surveyor-General; sold to an adjoining neighbour and no and the present man has only held the record has been kept. This information position for three or four years, although would appear in the accounts, but it he may have been in the department for would not be the type of data contained a long time. in a book that would be kept as a history Mr. Boyd!l: All of his life. of a particular station and retained on Mr. KELLY: I am aware of that. But the property. the report of the previous Surveyor-Gen- I consider there is plenty of room for eral-which I have here--Is not on all fours error in any of the statements that have with the report of the Present Surveyor- been made. Time erases many of the keen General. As a matter of fact, it differs points of a person's memory; and if we very considerably in some of Its findings. are going to accept as authentic a record They are almost diametrically opposed. of this kind we are accepting something So I think that statement by the Mdinister that is not reliable. As I have said, there really carries very little conviction, because is no guarantee that the facts, figures, the Surveyor -General, in his earlier life, and statements are accurate or sufficiently would have undoubtedly visited some of good enough to form the basis of a Bill the places and a great deal of water has of the Importance of this one. run under the bridge since that tine-10 Another factor is that the accountants to 30 years ago. who have given much of the evidence in Today there is a much greater need for this report naturally have the accounts closer husbandry on pastoral properties side of a property well in their minds; than there was in the Past. Therefore a and the under-studies in their businesses very vital factor in compiling a Bill of 1762 1762LASSFM LY.] this kind is in connection with stocking that time to provide a surplus for a pastor- and improvement of a property. There alist to improve his property. The pastor- has been some little treatment of the mat- allst was also subjected to the strain of ter, and this is what the report says- drought, together with the low price of wool and other factors. Some difficulties From our talks with many lessees could have been brought about by the and managers we are convinced that war when materials were short and the most of them have learnt useful les- pastoralists were unable to obtain fencing sons from the mistakes of the past materials and other commodities needed and realise that careful and intelligent to improve their properties. management is essential if the country So, by and large. I do not think it is is not to go back further. the fault of the pastoralists. However. Of course, any person who has a valuable at the same time, we find that other people Pastoral property under his control, whe- were able to effect quite a lot of improve- ther he be a. manager or an owner, would ments to their properties, and their carry- undoubtedly make a statement of that ing capacity did not denude the country kind if he thought there was any likeli- of its growth, particularly its top feed. Over hood of a reduction in acreage or that a period of years they have been able to conditions were going to worsen. Natur- advance their stations in such a manner ally he would put the best construction that today their carrying capacity is quite on any evidence he gave. But it is not high. The report says:- evidence. It only represents statements Generally speaking, the reasonable made; and, from some of the assertions carrying capacity of the country now made, the report was compiled. It con- appears to be about 50 per cent. of tinues- what it wvas originally, Very few, if any, stations are at I think we can agree that that position present overstocked and in fact, in was brought about by sonme of the things I have recently mentioned. The report says, some areas, lessees are having diffi- culty in breeding sufficient lambs to too- keep their flocks to satisfactory num- At present genuine efforts are being bers. made to introduce new grasses such as buffel, birdwood and kapok and in That Is not the reason at all. They are many instances pastures are being re- not overstocked, The reason is that the generated by rotational and deferred Price Per head of sheep has appreciated grazing as recommended by the De- so greatly that many of these People may partment of Agriculture. not have had the ready cash to bring their stations up to carrying capacity. In 95 It is only about five years since I passed per cent. of the cases, that would be the through the north-west after the Depart- reason why the carrying capacity is now ment of Agriculture had instituted its re- so far down. In almost every instance generation scheme; and up to that period, where information is available, we know the department had been operating for that the majority of these Properties are three years and was in the process of prov- very tow down in their carrying capacity. ing very conclusively just what this country is capable of, if regeneration were carried Some of the properties have had a bet- out on proper lines. A number of Pastoral- ter form of management over a period of ists were given the opportunity to see what years than others. They have gone mare was being done by the department. Some closely into Preservation of the land and of the best Young men In the department have been able to spend-perhaps they were trying to guide station people in the were in a fortunate position in the begin- matter of improving pasture conditions. ning-sufficient money to Provide the im- Progress was being made: and it was ob- provements necessary to carry the number vious that if the ideas of the department of stock that the country is capable of wvere put fully into effect a great deal of carrying. Not only that; they have pro- Improvement could be expected. tected their country by virtue of the hus- I took slides of various parts of the bandry that has been exercised in their country where tests had been carried out activities over a period of years. and where a large area of regenerated land had reached its third Year of progress- Therefore we find that the soundly- an area that had been kept free from stock. managed and owned places are in a much The change was remarkable. Despite all better position than many others that are this, there were only about eight Pastoral- carrying only half of their capacity. So ists in the area who were prepared to give a depletion of carrying capacity can be any credence at all to this scheme. traced back to those deficiencies which have taken Place over a period of years. Those people had small tractors with I do not think we can put the blame on single furrow ploughs with little seed boxes the pastoralists in many cases, because on top of the ploughs; and they carried many of them received a setback when out the experiments the same way as had wool fell to about lid, or an average of the department. Today, of course, there 111d.; and there was very little margin at is a more general application of this [Thursday, 17 October, 1953.] 176316 method to bring the country back into the 'the country, which is perhaps a good samne state as it was in the past. I men- thing for the north-west because, in all tion that because it is one instance where probability, they are bringing in new the pastoralists were not ready to accept capital, the Principles laid down by the depart- I wonder why a report of this kind has ment in the earlier stages. become so important in relation to the Bill In the first year or two there should now under discussion. I can just imagine have been a large number of men pre- what an uproar there would be by those pared to adopt the method which the de- now on the Government bench if, for in- partment had proved to be successful. stance, the Arbitration Court said to the There should have been far more than unionists, "You boys come along and give eight at that time. I think Liveringa was us all the reasons why you should get this. one of the places-and there were several that, and something else; why we should others in the vicinity-to improve its double your pay; and why we should ex- country by the adoption of this new tend all sorts of privileges to you," and method. I believe that today there are a then the Arbitration Court gave to the great number who have ascertained the unionists everything they had requested. wisdom of adopting this method: and it That would be a parallel position to the is making a great difference. one contained in this measure. It is stated in the report that some of The report has been compiled on the the people in the north have learnt their say-so of the people who are interested in lesson. I hope they have, or Western Aus- that industry. I suppose it could be ar- traias will be in a sorry position, as will gued that the people in the industry should the future of the pastoral industry. Ilt know the position: but this is a matter is not so many years ago that this great in connection with which we are giving pastoral industry of the north-west was to these people for 50 years an area of responsible for more than two-thirds of land that has actually all the resemblance Western Australia's entire wool produc- of being freehold. There is practically no tion. Today we find that the south-west limit. Certainly there is no-one in this has leapt ahead and the production figures Chamber who will see the end of the leases are now somewhere in the vicinity of 35 being granted to these people. Under this 65 per cent. Bill, we are tying up this land for all time. This report is a very lengthy one in tremendously large lumps. That is the and the way it has been produced point the Minister should have grappled and Its clarity could quite easily be with when he received this report and copied by those making similar reports. began to frame the necessary amendments It is undoubtedly historical because it to the Act. delves back into the history of the industry Mr. Bovell: The Government is not in over many years. It contains a lot of favour of putting the pastoral industry in extraneous matter which nevertheless is jeopardy, and any move like that at this important from an historical point of view. Juncture could be responsible for upsetting However, the fact that the report is based the whole of the pastoral industry, which entirely on unsworn evidence does reduce is one of the most valuable in Western its reliability. Australia-and has been since the beginn- In the list of those who gave evidence, ing of time. there are 13 Government officers; three Mr. KELLY: I do not think the Gov- members of the Pastoralists' Board; and ernment need have any fears in that re- six other persons, including a stock firm gard, and no person with a sane outlook inspector. Why should we have to take would consider that was ever likely, be- the say-so of a stock firm inspector? cause everyone recognises the vast im- Goodness gracious me! He is out to sell portance of the wool industry not only to his wares and to get commission from as Western Australia and the pastoralists, but many stations as he can. If he can put to Australia as a whole. It is a tremend- the best side to London, naturally he will ously important industry: but there is no do so. I cannot see why such a man reason why sanity should not prevail in should be among those examined. Much not only placing it on a sound basis but of the evidence also has come from de- also providing for continuity over a period partmental records and the data collected of years, involving far more participants by the department over a period of years. than there are in the industry today. The It is no wonder that this report Is very Government has slipped very badly in not much in favour of the pastoralists, be- recognising this factor. cause the majority of the people who gave There would be no need to dislocate any- evidence are people who have owned the one. There again, if the report had been country, in many cases for a long period based on sworn evidence it would have of years; and the majority of the unsub- been of more value because the unimproved stantiated data in the appendices has country would have come to the forefront. come from those people. On a number As the situation is, there was no need for of these properties, the second and third anyone to disclose his position. All he generations are established. There Is, of had to do was state that his property was course, a percentage of new folk entering pretty fully improved; and who was there [ASSEMBLY.] to gainsay it? The evidence was not taken years before it can be restored to its in paddocks where the unimprovement was original state. It is now down to red earth evident. It was taken in the seclusion of and there is no seed in some areas I have a shady spot; in some nice nook, where in mind. generalities only were discussed. Indifferent management, too, r believe I fully recognise the fact that there were has played a very important part in this some difficulties, and that the task of the running-down of the country; and, indeed, committee was quite a huge one. There of the industry. I think it can be said were many factors it had to consider; but there is a limited amount of first-class if it had been given the correct support in Pastoral country at present because, over connection with the compilation of this a period of years, the indigenous plant life report, much more cognisance c'mild be has been more or less denuded. Saisbush taken of it. We all know that many was one of the standbys for a long time: Select Committees and Royal Commissions and now, unless the ground is given a spell have been conducted previously, as well as for a lengthy period, no saltbush will grow. a number of departments; inquiries. This Even the hardy soft spin ifex has been would indicate that there is a great diffi- affected very greatly. Over-grazing has culty in keeping the industry on the rails knocked it very badly. Some of the other and keeping it progressing as we know it bushes, such as the mulga and the kur- should progress. The history of this in- rarra, are almost non-existent; and yet dustry is not one of progression. Over a 25 to 30 years ago most of these types of period of 25 to 50 years it "has gone back feed were the important ones. Irrespec- further and further. tive of what grasses grew, those shrubs Mr. Bovell: It will if this measure is were the ones carrying the industry not passed. through. But today we find that a great Mr. KELLY: Not necessarily at all. I amount of these types of bushes have prac- will come in a moment to one or two tically disappeared. It is only by means reasons why I make that statement. As of a very solid rejuvenation policy such I see it, we are not helping the Pastoral- as has been introduced by the Department ists in any progression. We are going to of Agriculture that we are ever likely call on them to make many more contribu- to bring back into productivity a lot of tions in various ways which will perhaps that country as we knew it. ulimately help the country; but in the The Pastoral area that is referred to in interim they are going to be an imposi- the Bill covers somewhere in the vicinity tion on the pastoralists generally. How- of 200,000,000 acres and, I think, embraces ever, I will deal with that when I come 568 stations. to. The report says that the majority of As I have said, all these examinations the People have their properties fully im- that have taken Place over a number of proved, but I cannot agree that that is the years highlight the difficulty of an indus- Position; and I feel that a close examina- try of this kind. Those in it have had tion would disclose that what I ain con- to face many problems, probably one of tending is the fact. the most acute being the seasonal condi- tions. We have passed through a period The financial requirement to improve a when crises have caused a considerable property of, say, 500,000 acres, is tre- amount of difficulty. Another problem mendous. Any member who has a farm- was labour, which was a chief drawback. ing property of 2,000 to 10,000 acres, or is interested in grazing land, knows what a Mr. Runciman: It still is. huge undertaking it is, firstly, to ring- Mr. KELLY: Yes; as the member for fence the property and then to subdivide Murray just said, it still is. This industry it. As we get into the bigger acreages has been subjected to damage by vermin, the magnitude of the problem increases with very little done to arrest it. This tremendously until we regard 1,000,000. has been because there is such a big acres or even 500,000 acres as something variety of vermin involved. The Pastoral- that is colossal in respect of improving ists have also had problems with their the property to its full carrying capacity. water supplies. In some cases, water has I am quite certain that the theme that been practically unobtainable, but those the majority of the country is improved more fortunate ones in areas through would never have been developed as a which rivers run have been in a much part of the report if the inquiry had been better position. made under different conditions. I keep Lack of development has undoubtedly harping back to that point because I think held many stations back, and those who it is the crux of the whole situation: and unfortunately were not very financial were I think a lot of the value of the report unable to develop their land in the way is lost. Everything that was said at the they desired. Others, of course, were not inquiry could have been taken as sworn keen on development anyway and were evidence, and we would have been able Prepared to rely on rivers and waterholes, to accept it as such: but we cannot accept and they ate that country out to such these statements in their present condi- a degree that it will probably be 40 or 5O tion. [Thursday, 1'? October, 1963.1 161765

Mr. Bovell: The committee was ap- that is why we are limited in regard to pointed in accordance with a resolution the number of people who are in the carried by the Legislative Council and north-west. moved by The Hon. F. J. S. Wise. We talk about populating the north- Mr. KELLY: I am perfectly aware of west and preparing this, that, and the that, and before commencing my remarks other. As an article in the newspaper this I scratched that statement out because I morning says-I do not altogether agree did not think it had any bearing on the with it-we are developing a lot of the report. north-west for Japs and other Asians to come in and take at the top end of Mr. Bovell: It has a bearing on the way Australia. 1 do not think that is quite the committee was appointed. the position; I do not think we are pre- Mr. KELLY: It might have. But I do paring to improve our country just to not think it was necessary for the Minister, band over the Ord River area and a few with the experience he had behind him other places. In my opinion, any invading in the department, to adopt this method, people would want something better than because he had a much more positive simply a fringe of country 1,500 miles way of getting the facts: namely, by ap- from here. pointing, as I have said, a Royal Com- mission rather than any type of com- I consider the matter of subdivision mittee. To my way of thinking a Select should have been the crux of the Hill, Committee, or any other type of com- because, had that been the case, we could mittee, would not have sufficient authority have got to the point of putting a lot to present a report of this kind. of this land into a far better position than it is In today. For quite a number of The Minister commented that the Bill years the whole of the northern area will be responsible for many improve- of the State has been unpopulated, ments, and that when it is brought fully and that has meant very costly lines into effect it will bring about a change in of commnunication, so far as develop- the industry, provided a huge amount ment is concerned; and other factors of capital is found from somewhere. Well, have come into the picture that are fre- it is not possible to put in thousands of quently detrimental to the best interests miles of fencing-and that is what is re- even of the people who are there, because quired if we are going to improve these of the lack of amenities and other things properties to a worth-while carrying cap- that people in other parts of the State acity. If we do not do that we will only look upon as a right. fog along in the way the industry has fogged along in the last 25 years. and there When we speak of subdivision, do not will be no material benefits at all; be- let us have regard for the possibility of cause, as I will show a little later, the subdividing this country on an arbitrary necessary improvements are so tremend- basis. I do not think that is necessary. As ous that what can be done is practically a matter of fact I made several trips negligible when we have regard for a through the north-west and discussed this property ranging from say, 500,000 to matter with various pastoralists because 1,000.000 acres. It is just a drop in the they knew a Bill was in the offing. I had ocean in regard to the amount that will only been in the present Minister's posi- be called upon by the department to be tion for a very few months at the time; spent on improvements. and some of the pastoralists, even then, I shall deal with that aspect pretty were quite nervy in regard to what could fully because there are some factors in be the future of the pastoral industry. regard to it that need a lot more ex- amination than is apparent from the I was questioned on a number of occa- statement that we will spend on a pro- sions as to what I and the department perty 2J times the rental of that property. had in mind for the future welfare of the industry. I made it perfectly clear that What I have been saying up to now in the case of a station that had, say, would indicate that I am not at all happy 150.00 0 acres lying idle-practically un- about the report in so far as it touches used or unimproved-there was a very on the Bill. Perhaps my main complaint good chance that we would have to come is perfectly obvious by now. I say that to some arrangement with the owner to the Bill and the failure of the Govern- allow that country to go back into the ment to disregard the basic requirements land pool and be subdivided, or added to of what is needed in the State at present as the case might be, so that others could are the main factors upon which I develop enjoy the right of being pastoralists beside my complaint; namely, that the measure the favoured few already in the industry. contains no provision whatever for sub- division. Subdivision would naturally cover Most of those with whom I discussed the the unimproved section of the pastoral pro- matter thought that was, perfectly fair. perties of the north-west and the Unused and many of them admitted that they did and undeveloped land: because that is not have the wherewithal to develop the where all the trouble lies at present, and country but were holding it because they [ASSEMBLY.I had held it for donkeys' years and natur- Just imagine this Bill perpetuating a ally would expect some form of compensa- condition of that kind; and of course it tion, Of course, the compensation would is doing that in many cases. If this matter come from the ingoing incumbents. had been given the thorough investigation that it should have been, on a Royal Com- The poin-t I am making is that the Bill mission basis, those Properties that are before us does nothing at all towards iron- undeveloped and are carrying only a small ing out the lease position. We are living number of sheep could have been quite now as we lived 50 years ago. When the safely subdivided into three or even four Act was originally before the House pro- stations, instead of remaining as one- gress had not been made in the north- million acre properties, and a vastly differ- west as we know it today. At that time ent result would have been obtained. Not the north-west was definitely in a pioneer- only that, but many people who hold this ing stage, and the Government found it large amount of land realise that they incumbent on itself to do the best it could cannot do anything with it. They know to induce people to go there. But that is that it is more or less redundant from not the position today. It is not a matter their point of view and that they have of having to induce people to go there: no Possible chance of developing it because we have evidence of the huge sums of of the high cost of improvements these money being paid for properties-pro- days. Yet we are saying to them, "There perties that in earlier times would have you are. It is an open cheque-one million been worth £10,000 or E15.000, but today acres; you can hold it as long as you like. are selling for £60,000 or £70,000. There and need have only the minimum number is no need for a drive to get people to go of sheep." there. Irrespective of seasons, and irre- spective of the provisions of the Bill, we would have to do something to stop the The Minister says he is providing for rush If some of this country were made that in his Hill. But where is the capital available to the people. to come from to improve properties of one million acres that are carrying 14,000 or The Government lost a valuable oppor- 15,000 sheep? I will increase my previous tunity when bringing down a Bill of this figure by a few thousand. What kind of kind by not making it possible, under a money does the Minister visualise will be voluntary system, to take back into its necessary to stock properties of that kind; possession many thousands of acres of this to improve properties of that kind? Of land which could be profitably used and course, it is far beyond the financial re- which would be the means of bringing sources of the people who hold those pro- more people into the area. It is a very perties today to Improve them. They can poor outlook for the State when a Bill never develop the land. The Minister has such as this perpetuates the very unrealis- reserved to himself the right to say. "If tic maximum holding of 1.000.000 acres. they cannot improve the property they will I think that is shocking, because there is have to get off it." What a fine approach no need at all for such a huge area to be to the problem that is! faney the Minis- held. As I have said, much of the country ter saying that to people who have battled that is held under the present conditions on those properties for years; and who. is not being used, irrespective of what the because the country was easily acquired in report states or what the committee was the early days, took up large tracts of land. told. but who, of course, in the years that have passed have been unable to effect any I feel the Government should have taken improvements thereon. some cognisance of the position and altered it materially. If 1,000,000 acres has been held by a family for a number of years Some people would now resent any in- and, perhaps, three or four sons are get- terference with their properties; but if ting a living off different parts of the they had effected any improvements, or property, that alters the position consider- carried out any development in a proper ably. I am speaking mainly of the areas way, the Government could now string that are held but not developed; and areas along with them, because no-one is anxious which, because of the financial set-up, are to interfere with a settler who is develop- not likely to be developed to any great ing a property on sound lines. extent unless the Government is Prepared to shovel in huge amounts of money. However, when it is realised that we have a great deal of undeveloped land and In many places we find properties of it is anticipated that the owners will be 1,000,000 acres with 12,000 sheep on them. permitted to carry on in the same sweet Just fancy-12,000 Sheep! Even in the way as in the past, with the exception areas known for a long time as marginal that from time to time the Minister is areas we can find properties of 7,000 and going to make a review of the properties 8,000 acres with 6,000 sheep an them, but of Brown, Smith, and Jones if they have these other People have 1,000,000 acres but not been able to keep up with their fin- are running as few, in some cases, as provements, the future of these properties 12,000 sheep. does not appear to be very bright. ('Thursday, 1'? October, 1963.] 176776

If Brown. Smith, and Jones put up hard- Let me make that point very clear. I luck stories to the Minister, what can he do not think there should be any compul- do? What is more, we would not want to sion whatsoever. I think that objective see him taking any drastic action. Never- could be achieved if we set about doing theless, the Minister does not have the something with that land. remedy for the problem concerning the Mr. Bovell: But 'we have resumed land huge area of territory which is held and for possible development in the Ord River which, in many instances, is largely un- area. developed. I think the committee based its finding on the fact that any subdivision Mr. KELLY:, Fancy comparing the Ord would decrease productivity and might River district with the land of which I prove uneconomical. Has one ever heard am speaking! No comparison whatsoever could be made between the two. I am of such a thing! thinking that not only would the subdivi- Mr. Bovell: It has in other States. sion of this country bring about a much Mr. KELLY: Yes; but the circumstances better position, but also it would enable and the acreages have been vastly differ- Governments to Provide more, and improve ent to those in Western Australia. existing facilities, such as telephone com- Mr. Bovell: There are large pastoral munication, roads, bridges, and such like. areas granted in South Australia, and The Government would be justified in there is a much greater area allowed in spending more money if the population in- the Northern Territory and in Queensland. creased in that area, and it could increase if this Bill were designed to attend to the Mr. KELLY: A much different position requirements of the State. exists on the Nullarbor; but one cannot compare the Nullarbor with the areas of The report also deals with the labour the north-west. position, and points out how difficult it is to obtain labour on stations. This difficulty Mr. Bove]l: In Western Australia the is brought about because of the conditions maximum is a million acres, which does that exist in many of those places, For a not apply in other States. period of years there has been a lag in Mr. KELLY: And that maximum is far the type of accommodation that would too high. encourage an abundance of labour in an Mr. Bcvell: They have not found that area of that kind. to be the experience in other States. Mr. Bovell: That has improved a great deal today, though. Mr. KELLY: I believe the thinking on this matter, and the statement that sub- Mr. KELLY: I agree with the Minister. division might become uneconomical, are But over that period the north has en- so much hooey. In my opinion it is nega- joyed a very unenviable reputation in re- tive thinking. We know that the direct gard to the employment of labour. The opposite has been proved by experience. conditions were such that it was difficult I feel certain that subdivision would en- to do very much to improve them on a courage more intensive development, be- station employing one or two hands only. cause a great deal more money would be Also, in those instances where a station introduced to the industry and an attempt owner is short of finance it is sometimes made to develop the land that is held; quite understandable that the best of con- whereas at present it is impossible for a ditions would be hard to provide. How- person who has 1,000,000 acres but who ever, I believe that if this land had been is using only about 250,000 acres, to develop divided in a manner in which it was cap- the whole of it. He can effect only partial able of being divided, undoubtedly the improvements and obtain a reasonable re- labour position would have improved tre- turn from only a proportion of the carry- mendously; because if the conditions were ing capacity which the country is able to congenial many people who are quite happy sustain. to go to the north-west would grasp the Mr. Bovell: In his report, a former opportunity to work on stations. Minister for Lands was quite clear on the However, under this Bill the position wiUl position. remain as it has in the past, when only one Mr. KELLY: I have his report here and or two men could be obtained to work a the Minister will hear more about that re- huge property, when the full carrying port shortly. With the intensive develop- capacity could not be reached on account ment of that country, which there would of insufficient labour, and whren it was be if it were subdivided, many mare sheep difficult to purchase more stock to achieve would undoubtedly be carried, and the full carrying capacity. I think the mea- population would increase tremendously. I sure should have been drafted with a should say that population is one of our view to an attempt being made to exam- main objectives in that vast area. It ine all pastoral properties over 400,000 would be quite easy to contemplate a pos- acres and with the object of gaining some sible increase of up to 70 per cent. in the land here or there, and without detract- population if this land were subdivided in ing from the value of the properties as a manner suitable to the requirements of they are now being held and worked. That the country, and on a voluntary basis. could have been done on a voluntary basis. (ASSEMBLY.) and agreements could have been reached to to disregard the position, all our efforts to the satisfaction of both the Government find a solution to the Problem will be and the pastoralists themselves. frustrated. I think it can be easily claimed that Mr. Bovell: All the experts, including the the majority of the leases that are held former Surveyor-General, have strongly today were selected about 50 years ago, advised against subdivision at this stage. with some of them being selected as fat Mr. KELLY: Those are the Minister's back as '70 or 80 years ago. By and large, remarks; but we will come to mine in due legislation in succeeding years has merely course. I now come to the question of extended the terms of the leases from one smaller holdings, and we will see what period to another, with no provision for this report has to say in regard to them. correct husbandry. That has not been All those members who are farmers, and taken into account, but this Bill certainly who hold 1,000 acres will realise what does deal with it to some extent. would happen on a smaller holding in similar circumstances. Mr. Bovell: To a very great extent. Mr. Bovell: If Your theory were to be Mr. KELLY: Yes, I agree with the Min- put into effect you would subdivide all the ister that it does if it could be put into agricultural properties in the south-west. complete effect; if it were policed Mr. KELLY: NO; I would nu~t. The thoroughly; if there were sufficient ad- following is what the report has to say visers made available to those engaged in in regard to little farmers holding 25,000 the industry, and if the Government were acres prepared to advance a sufficiently large and not holding millions of acres- amount of capital to enable these things As far as little areas are concerned. to be done. Otherwise, it is going to put there are many properties in the State a burden around the pastoralist's neck which are too small to be economically when it comes to the question of investing sound. a large amount of capital to bring these Those men have managed to exist over a properties up to a stage where they have a period of years, reared their families on a reasonable carrying capacity, and where their properties, and have reached the the fertility of the land is assured. This stage where they can send their children will apply particularly to those properties south to be educated. This Bill is going which are substandard so far as improve- to affect those men. The report con- ments are concerned. tinues- I again emphasise that this Bill, in its In fact, we have been approached present form, is almost an entire benefit on behalf of several lessees that some to the existing pastoralists. It will achieve means be provided whereby they may nothing whatsoever towards bringing land have their areas increased. into production; will do nothing towards Naturally, a man at present holding increasing the carrying capacity of the 100,000 or 250,000 acres will want more north-west, and will do nothing towards land if he can get it because it will put increasing the population as we have done him into a better economic position, in the past. Even the provisions to which especially when, by looking over the fence, the pastoralists will have to conform will he can see acres and acres of beautiful achieve exactly nothing towards increasing country, untouched and undeveloped. But, the population. Surely to goodness that of course, there are no fences there as yet must have been a target for the Minister -or very few; it is only an imaginary to aim at when preparing a Bill of boundary line. Naturally he wants more this kind! Surely he must realise, by land; but this Hill will not enable him making an examination of the position, to get any. There is a far more drastic and just studying the history as enunciated result ahead of him, unless lhe can do a in the report, that one of the greatest few of the things he wants to do. From drawbacks to north-west progress is lack a State point of view, these small units of population! are unsatisfactory says the report. The State is now dictating whether a person If the Minister is going to take out acres shall have a property off which he and of land here and there according to the his family have lived for a long time. The availability of the land, what can one ex- report goes on- pect? We must realise that we are Sound- The Department of Agriculture re- ing the death-knell of the pastoral in- Ports that amalgamation of aban- dustry in Western Australia, and not for doned units in the Pilbara (individu- a period of 19 years by the present ex- tension of the leases, but by an extension ally too small to operate profitably) now of 50 years, during which the hands has been most successful. of Western Australia will be tied so far as It was an entirely different matter, be- the progress of the north-west is con- cause whole properties had been aban- cerned. It cannot be otherwise if we are doned. It was not the case of a small to maintain the position whereby the landholder being stuck among 1,000,000- stations have an acreage of up to a max- acre Properties. These were properties imum of 1,000,000 acres. If we are going operating as full stations. By a better LThursday, 17 October, 1963.1 151769 division of such land, by cutting it up Mr. KELLY: That is stated in the in a more satisfactory manner, by finan- report. vial help, and by assistance in other ways, Mr. Bovell: It is not the report which some of these properties today are doing has been introduced. well. The report goes on to say- There are three possible courses of Mr. KELLY; The Minister has intro- action in connection with these small duced the Bill based on this report, I go areas: They are:- so far as to say that if the subdivision provision had been included in the Bill, and (i) Allow them to remain as they if properties partially developed were re- are. turned to the Crown, the Government Uf they are not economic we should not would have been in a position to undertake allow them to remain as they are. We a new subdivision of all the land passed have no right to say to the small holder, back, and I would not be averse to ex- "You cannot do much good on your pro- tending the Period of lease. That would perty. You should get off.- It does not have been the right of each pastoralist. If matter if there is plenty of vacant land a pastoralist had 300,000 or 400,000 acres next to you." That is not the answer. he and his adjoining landholders could The second possible course of action is- have gone to the Government to form an- (ii When the term of lease ex- other station. On that condition I am not pires, refuse renewal and add opposed to the extension of the lease even the land to adjoining stations. beyond the contemplated time. I am not In other words, make the big landholder averse to pastoralists holding their land as long as they develop it, but I am averse to bigger. the holding of land that is not being de- Mr. Bovell: These are only alternatives. veloped, irrespective of what is claimed in This is not what the Bill envisages. the report. Mr. KELLY: Underlying the provisions There is no urgency in passing the Bill of the Bill is the report I am quoting from. before us. It could be left for another Mr. Bovell: The provision you have re- 12 months or two years. After all, the ferred to is not in the Bill. period has still 19 years to run, and these I am pointing out what leases are changing hands at present, al- Mr. KELLY: though they have another 19 years' tenure. this Bill is based on; it is based on the How much more improved in value will report I am quoting from. The report these properties be when the time comes continues-- for extending the leases for another 33 (iii) Enlarge them at the expense years? of the adjoining large proper- This was wvhat the previous Surveyor- ties where possible. General (Mr. W. V. F'yfe) had to say in The Minister has already said that connection with the voluntary conversion 1,000,000 acres was the maximum that scheme which the Minister is not in favour could be held, so who is going to give of- away his land? We hope they will do so The proposal which I submitted for to help those who are struggling. These the Voluntary Conversion Scheme, alternatives are niot designed to give re- under which pastoral leases could be lief. It is a matter of swallowing up the surrendered, and new leases obtained small holder. The report states fur- to provide a fifty year period from ther- the date of conversion, could, if agreed The number of these small units is to by the pastoralists and approved comparatively very limited and al- by the Government and Parliament, though we would like to see thenm en- date from 1st January, 1960. The larged this is not practicable except reasons for this proposal are broadly, by private negotiation. that the conditions for the new lease The Government, in effect, says to the can provide for the more effective im- small holders, "We cannot help you. Let provements and use of the land. the big landholders do so if they desire. Mr. Bovell: You are taking this state- We will not take a hand in this." The ment out of context. You should read the Government is apparently prepared to al- report in full. low the small holder to struggle on, until he becomes thoroughly disheartened and Mr. KELLY: I am referring to the vol- .leaves the property, after which the pro- untary conversion scheme. The Minister perty is given to the big holder. said the former Surveyor-General had not Mr. Bovell: One cannot win. approved of it; but, in fact, he had. Mr. KELLY: The Minister could win Mr. Bovell; There is no mention of a if he would put up something practicable, voluntary conversion scheme in the Bill. with provision being made for the future, Mr. KELLY: All the Minister is doing so that the errors of the past could be is to extend the evils and ills of the in- avoided. dustry for another 33 years. There is no Mr. Bovell: In one breath You Say it attempt made at all to implement the vol- is intended to resume these units. untary conversion scheme. Contrary to 1770 1770EAB8EMBLYJ what the Minister said, the previous Sur- spend annually the amount that is pro- veyor-General did, in fact, mention this posed. For instance, the profit of one matter, and it was foremost in his mind. property in 1955-56 was 9,.085, while the on every occasion he visited the north he net profit the following year was £ 14,379. conferred, and discussed this matter, with The property was carrying 238 sheep and the people. the rental was three times that of the first Another feature in the Bill which the property I mentioned-679 for a smaller Minister should consider again, if we are property; and on that rental they will be to have something reasonable, concerns the required to spend £1,697. It is utterly development plan. I do not know the ridiculous to base the expenditure in the exact wording used, but in essence the Bill manner proposed, because rentals over a provides that pastoral properties must be period of time have been quite diversified. improved at the rate of 21 times the annual I can quote another station which has rental paid on the property. been paying an annual rental of £1,226. Mr. novell: Annually? and the annual expenditure will be £3,065. Mr. KELLY: Yes, annually; and they Then we come to another and find that must carry the correct number of stock, in 1955-56 there was a Profit of £3,800, maintain the land in good condition, and while in 1955-57 there was a loss of £1,759. spend annually not less than two and a 1 only obtained the acreage of this pro- half times the annual rent. Let us look at perty in the last few hours, and it consists what this will mean in practice to some of slightly more than 250,000 acres. The of the people, and how little it means in annual rental is £231, and an expenditure the overall to some of the big holdings. of £577 10s. will be required. Mr. Bovell: You should know, as former I wish to quote some information in Minister, that the Pastoral Appraisement regard to properties, but I will not men- Board recommends things of that nature tion the names. If the Minister wantsj.o and can give the Minister the right to know the names of the Properties I am waive the rent. prepared to give the list to him. One particular station in 1955-56 showed a Mr. KELLY: Is the Minister doing that? profit of £25,519, and in 1956-57 it showed Mr. Bovell: If it is recommended. a net profit of £28,881. It carried 21,000 Mr. KELLY: What do we spend then? sheep and its annual rental is £.279; and the amount that that property, with Its Mr. novell: You are quoting individual huge profit-and it is a big profit in com- years to suit your own argument. parison with many of the other stations- Mr. KELLY: The scale I have here covers will be called upon to spend-it is a half - a period of two years and it is the latest million-acre property-will be £697 10s. per I could get. I do not think the Minister year. That would not put down one well could give me one at the present time. or provide two miles of fencing. Mr. Bovell: Why don't you ask for it? Mr. Bovell: You have to take a period I have not denied you anything that you of 50 years. You have already stated some have asked for. of the causes of the problem-the depres- Mr. KELLY: At times the Minister has sion and bad seasons. This is the annual been generous and good to me. Here is expenditure in season and out of season. the information concerning another pro- Mr. KELLY: But on a property of perty. I have already instanced a station 1,000,000 acres there would not be ten that is paying £1,226 rental which, under miles of fencing but hundreds of miles of this new legislation, will have to spend fencing; there would not be one well but £3,065. I now refer to a station with more dozens; and every type of improvement than double the profit. In the first of the would be on a great scale. However, we two years I mentioned the profit was are asking them to spend that amount. £48,542, and in the second year £24,865. This property is carrying 28.330 sheep, and Mr. Bovell: What is the area of the paying a rental of £803. station? Mr. Bovell: It is probably a fully- Mr. KELLY: Just on half a million acres. developed property, because the carrying Mr. Lewis: You cannot relate the income capacity indicates that. Therefore, im- there to the amount that would have to be provements may not be necessary. spent. Obviously much more would have Mr. KELLY: No: this particular place been spent to get that income. has a long line of river frontage which Mr. KELLY: That is not my point. Some has served It for over half a century. 'Te property owners, in their own interests. property was one of those appraised early, would spend more than two-and-a-half and it has done very well. times the annual rent: but how silly it is Mr. Bovell: They have put their profits to compel them to spend that amount when back into the property and it is well their income is high. I think the amount developed. which has to be spent annually should be Mr. KELLY: Another property adjoins based on income, as there are some station this one on its southern boundary, and owners who will find It a hardship to even there are miles and miles of country in (Thursday, 17 October, 1953.] 177177 which no person has ever been and which I do not desire in any way to criticise has never been stocked. It is unimproved. the members of the committee who have Therefore, the Minister cannnot get away presented this report, but I feel that they with it that way. I did not come here must either have been given a time limit with a lot of figures dragged from a sky in which to submit the report, or they were book. These figures are authentic; and hampered by lack of finance. In other the proposed method of calculating the words, there may have been a certain amount to be spent will not get the Minis- amount of money set aside for them, to ter anywhere. As regards the bigger pro- be used in the compilation of this report. perties, I do not think the provision will If that were the case, It considerably be worth the paper it is written on. A hampered their movements and they were few hundreds of pounds going into im- not able to do the job which would other- provements in vast areas will not mean wise have been possible had no restrictions anything. If people want to progress, been placed on them. I believe that a they will not be able to keep to this pro- Royal Commission would have been prefer- vision. able because all evidence then would have been given on oath and we would prob- So far as the people who do not measure ably have received a far more complete up are concerned, the Minister has a weak report than that which has been presented. stick-a blackboy stick-but It would not do any good if he tried to use it. In re- The committee had to investigate 558 gard to other matters in the Bill, I think stations in Western Australia and these the new policy that will be adapted in cover probably five-eighths of the total area of this State. In the Gascoyne elec- connection with soil erosion, and ordinated effort between the Governmentthe co- torate, of the 106 stations established, only and pastoralists in connection with ver- three were visited. The 106 stations com- min, and things of that kind, will be good prise one-fifth of the total number in this and should, in time, bring abn~ut quite an State. If we take the same percentage of improvement on present conditions. stations visited throughout other parts of the State, the committee would have As I said earlier, the impost of doing visited only 16 stations. The report con- these things will be a heavy financial tains no indication as to which stations or burden on the majority of owners; and how many were visited; but, taking the unless the Government is prepared to give same percentage, the committee could only a great deal of assistance, particularly in have visited approximately 18. regard to improvements, the stations will In my area, the three stations visited not be brought up to anything like mod- were two in the Murehison, which were ern requirements. In order to restock and side by side, and one very nearly in the overcomc the disabilities from which the northcrn part of the electorate. The two industry has suffered over a period of time, areas visited would be approximately 300 a lot of finance will have to be provided if miles apart and throughout that area the properties are to be placed on a better there are many changes in conditions. basis than they are on now. As I have The committee could never have obtained indicated right through, the possibility of a general picture of the industry In that increasing the population is nil, and the area, by merely visiting three stations, possibility of creating a few more pastoral Whilst the present Surveyor-General has propertes is nil, because this Bill merely probably gone over the area at some time perpetuates all the ills and troubles which or another- have been existent in the industry for Mr. Bovell: Over and over and over many years. again; and he has spent five weeks with I feel I have indicated fully that the me in the Kimberleys during my term as Hill under discussion is not going to do Minister. anything beneficial for this industry. It Mr. NORTON: 1 do not doubt it. is not going to overcome the many draw- Mr. Bovell: That was done because Mr. backs under which the industry has lab- Wise moved for it. oured for quite aLlong time. In essence it will preserve the status quo in connec- Mr. NORtTON: Apparently the Minister tion with the huge properties already does not like us saying that this was taken existing, and unless the Government is lightly, but I did not say it was taken prepared to place a lot of capital at the lightly. However, I do say that proper in- disposal of the industry the Bill will do vestigation was not made. The Surveyor- nothing to improve any of these properties General would be more or less about his to their carrying capacity. own Job. He would not be investigating the capabilities of the pastoralists. or the MR. NORTON (Gascoyne) 15.51 p.m.l: pastoral areas. As the member for Merredin-Yilgarn has Evidence was submitted to this com- stated, this is a very important Bill for the mittee by 90 people, 60 of whom were pastoral industry. The report on which it pastoralists. The witnesses came from all is based, whilst it contains a lot of valuable over Australia. but how those from the information, is very hard to follow. Eastern States knew what our pastoral [ASSEMLY.) areas were like is bard to imagine; how- with 12,000 sheep sold for £74,000. These ever, evidence was taken from them and people do not buy sttions for cash. Most was considered in the compilation of this of them buy on bills of sale or mortgage, report. which means that there would be 6 per I think it is a great pity that the com- cent. interest on their money. If these mittee did not undertake far more on-the- stations are going to show only 3n per spot investigations because it is these cent, or 4 per cent, on capital investment, which leave an impression with anyone. how are people going to meet their interest It is all very nice to be able to make use payments, let alone the return on their of reports from an office but it is not the capital? same as on-the-spot investigations. Inci- dentally, I notice, from a perusal of the This document is misleading, although it list of those who gave evidence, that in was not intended that it should be so. some instances the same person gave evi- A number of figures are given in appendix dence on behalf of more than one station. F. They show the size of stations, the Therefore actually 60 independent pas- number of sheep being run, the number of toralists probably did not give evidence. bales of wool produced, the weight of the clips, the cost of various items, and the On pages 26 and 27 of the report the prices paid for wool sold. If we analyse committee sets out to give the profits or these figures we will find that we cannot losses made by the stations as a whole. get very far; mainly because we do not Paragraph 58 reads-- know the areas in which these stations are The margins between the running located. That is a tremendous factor when costs and wool returns of the past two dealing with the matter of returns from years have narrowed very seriously by stations. In the Murchison or in the comparison with the years prior to Wiluna, area, we know what to expect. If 1959. In 1961-62 the average margin the station is in the middle or upper Gas- was less than 10d. per lb. of wool with- coyne areas we know that it is in stony out taking into account livestock losses country. If the stations are in the region and certain financial expenses. of the North West Cape we know that the The report does not indicate what the area is spinifex country. But spinifex financial expenses were. To continue- country differs considerably, from soft This suggests that if 10,000 sheep were spinifex to old man spinifex, which is use- run a surplus of £3,750 per year would less as feed. arise but, in fact, a property which Earlier this session I asked the Minister will carry only 10,000 sheep (say vhether he would indicate the areas in 300,000 to 350,000 acres) would be in- which the respective stations were located. volved in running costs considerably in That was to give me some idea of what excess of the average figure. might be expected in each area. I realise Just what is meant by that last part I am that from this information certain people not quite sure: but let us have a look at could have identified the various stations. what it actually means when investments But the average pastoralist knows how are considered. An area of 300,000 to many bales of wool his neighbour shears 350,000 acres would be required to run and how many sheep he runs. He knows 10.000 sheep, according to the report. On the Price that his neighbour receives for page 27 it is indicated that to run 9,000 his wool because the information comes sheep would require an expense of £96,000 over the air and is reported in the Press. so that a profit of E5,000 would, roughly, It. is not difficult to get down to a working only be 5 per cent. on the capital invest- figure for each station if one wishes to ment. However, this does not include the do so. cost of the Purchase of the sheep and if we are going to add to that the cost of It is a pity that no consideration is given and no reference is made in the report to the purchase of the sheep we are going the various to run up the investment to within the stations which have been sold. Scme cognisance of that aspect could have vicinity of £120,000 which would reduce been given in the Bill. The Bill provides the interest on capital investment to less for the setting than 4 per cent. up of a pastoral appraise- mient board, which is to supersede the Now, this does not ring true; because if board of appraisers. The board of ap- one follows the sales that have taken praisers consisted of the Surveyor-General, place-and these have not been commented the Assistant Surveyor-General, and a pas- or. at all in the pastoral report: that is, toralist. Mr. W. E. Butcher. Its primary the sales of stations over recent years- object was to review and assess rentals within the last 12 months we would realise on the various stations. that If the profit Is so low, the stations would not be selling at the prices they are Mr. Bovell: It will have a lot more re- in my electorate, or bordering right on it. sponsibilities now. There have been three sales in this area, Mr. NORTON: The new board will con- one of them being a sale at £78,000 for a sist of the Surveyor-General, the Director station of 14,000 sheep. Another with of Agriculture, and two others, one of 12,000 sheep sold for £68,000; and another whom is to be Mr. W. 1?. Butcher. Hut it [Thursday, 17 October, 1963.3 17737 does not say in the Bill whether the two The Minisater may argue, and he said other persons are to be pastoralists, or when he introduced the Bill that this sub- whether one of them shall be an account- clause does not refer to any leases now ant or something else. That should have held. But the Point is that if leaseholders been defined in the Bill so that members of want new leases they have to surrender the House and the pastoralists would know their present ones. There is no reason who were to be the members of the board. why some of these smaller holdings could not be given land from some of the adjoin- As the Mfinister interjected, the new Ing properties. In my area there is a man board will have tremendous responsibili- on a small holding who is running well ties. In fact, I am wondering how it will under 6.000 sheep. The property is quite cope with its responsibilities. I cannot profitable but on the adjoining station the see how the board will be able to function owners are not running any sheep at all as one would expect a part-time board to on one portion of the property, and, as far function. It will have to deal with rentals as I know, have not done so during the of pastoral properties, and that will niot be 30 years I have been in the district. an easy matter. It will have to deal with Today that station is running one sheep plans for improvements, for stocking, and to 23 acres whereas it is recommended that for the issuing of new leases. it should run one sheep to 19 acres. It is The board will each year have to a very good station and portion of its land analyse 558 stations. Each pastaralist will has never been used. In a case like that have to submit to the board each year a there is no reason why that big station, plan for the Minister's approval showing which is over 500,000 acres, should not the development which has taken place surrender a small portion to the adjoining to date on his station, and the proposed leaseholder who is on a small property and development plans for the ensuing year. who is a resident whereas, on that par- The board will also have to examine the ticular station, there are 21 absentee share- stocking rate of each station in the light holders. of the various conditions which apply cli- Mr. Burt; Why do you think they are matically, such as erosion, and so on. not using that land? They must want to If the board has to do all that, it will have a, full-time job. I will deal more fully grow wool on it. with the various points a little later. Mr. NORTON: I do not know why they are not using it. It is excellent country The Bill, with regard to stocking, says-- and other people are running large numn- Af ter the coming into operation of hers of sheep on identical country. It Is the Land Act Amendment Act, 1963, in an artesian belt where water can be a pastoral lease shall not be granted obtained for the expenditure of probably unless the Board Is of opinion that the £14,000 or E15.000. land comprised in the lease will be Mr. Bovell: But this Bill makes provi- capable when fully developed of carry- sion for making use of land that is not ing not less than six thousand sheep being used now. or not less than one thousand two hundred cattle, or such other respec- Mr. NORTON: I know that very well, sheep or cattle as are but the point is why should this little chap tive numbers of be crushed out, which is what it amounts at the time application is made for to, when the larger station, with nobody the lease, prescribed by the regula- but absentee shareholders, is not making tions for the purposes of this subsec- an economic use of its land? This Bill tion; but this subsection does not apply should have a provision in it under which, to a new lease applied for under the in a case such a&~ this, a certain portion provisions of section one hundred and of the larger lease can be made available fourteen of this Act. to the lessee of the smaller property so Section 114 simply deals with land which that he can have a reasonable station. It is taken up for the first time. would certainly not be at the expense of When introducing the Bill the Minister the larger station in this case because the said that the leaseholders of these small land is not being used. Therefore I cannot properties--and in my electorate, as far as see why the Bill Is so down on the little I know, there are about 10 properties that man and all for the larger people-the do not carry more than 6,000 sheep-would large shareholdings. not have to forfeit their leases. Yet, from While the member for Merredin-Yilgarn the way the Bill is worded, to get a new was speaking I checked on some of the lease of their land leaseholders will have figures which have been given by the Min- to forfeit their present leases; otherwise ister over the last few days, and I checked they can carry on under their present on the stations which are holding over leases to 1982. If they wish to get the 750,000 acres. It is very interesting to note extra 33 years they have to surrender their what is happening on these stations. One leases and be issued with new ones. There- property, which is Just short of 1,000,000 fore, according to that subelause of the acres, is running one sheep to every 23 Bill when they apply for new leases they acres, whereas its carrying capacity, as will be ineligible. recommended by the committee, is one [ASSEMBLY.] sheep to every 16.5 acres. Another station, people could form a company to acquire a little larger and just under 1,000,000 1,ooooa0 acres of pastoral property; anid acres, is carrying one sheep to 49 acres, with sufficient capital behind them, in a whereas the recommendation is one sheep short time they could control well over to 36 acres. 1,000,000 acres each by forming various Still another station, which is 1,000 proprietary companies. acres larger, is running one sheep to 40 In view of this position, I consider that acres, whereas the recommendation is one the companies which are granted pastoral sheep to 28 acres. Another one, just on leases should have their shareholdings reg- 750.000 acres, is running one sheep to 43 istered according to the provisions of the acres, and the recommendation is one Companies Act in this State. If that were sheep to 32 acres. Yet another station of done the names and addresses of share- 750,000 acres is running one sheep to 94 holders would be recorded and known, and acres, whereas the recommendation is one one would be able to ascertain what their sheep to 39 acres. Another station of over objects were. 750,000 acres is running one sheep to 72 I now want to deal with that part of the acres, and the recommendation is one Bill which concerns stocking. When the sheep to 25 acres. Yet another property Bill is passed, the Pastoral Appraisement of 750,000 acres is running one sheep to Board will be empowered to instruct a 34 acres, and the recommendation is one pastoralist on how many sheep he has to sheep to 28 acres. carry on his leasehold. In many ways this Members can see from those figures that is quite a good feature; but the position will the leaseholders of the larger properties be reached when one will have to ask how are not running the correct number of the Pastoral Appraisement Board is to sheep to the number of acres they have. police such an instruction, and how it will If we analyse the situation in regard to assess the correct number of sheep to be the various properties we will find that carried on any leasehold for every 1,000 the most economic size is between 350,000 acres. On a property where there is an and 500,000 acres. owner-manager he usually takes care of that problem himself. This can be seen Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m. from many of the figures that have been Mr. NORTON: Prior to the tea suspen- given in this House in answer to ques- sion I was pointing out how stations of tions asked this session. If we analysed 750,000 acres and up to 1,000,000 acres those figures given in relation to 10 pas- usually stock lighter than stations in the toral leases it would be found that only 300,000 or 500.000-acre range. Further, two are carrying the recognised stock hold- those stations which carry less than a ing. The other eight, it would be found, minimum of 6,000 sheep should have their are carrying considerably less than the re- pastoral leases increased rather than have quired number of stock. land taken from them, as is envisaged in As a matter of fact, if those eight sta- the Bill. tions were instructed to restock today, It r also believe there should be no provi- would mean that a total of 82.600 sheep sion for the granting of leases up to would have to be purchased and taken into 1,000,000 acres. These large holdings do the area. T7hat would mean, working on a not tend towards an increase in popula- conservative estimate of £3 10s. per sheep tion In the north. Usually they are held landed at the station, a total expenditure by large companies; and naturally all the of £330,700. shareholders are absentees and their only Mr. Bovell'. Are all those stations fully Interest is an increase in their capital in- developed? vestment. It is quite evident that better husbandry is practised with the smaller Mr. NORTON: Yes. They are old pas- and resident lessees than is practised on toral leases, and if the Minister casts his the larger holdings. Therefore, I am firmly eye down the list he supplied to me today of the opinion that these large areas should he will see that some of them originally be reduced considerably to permit of commenced operations in the '80s. Apart from the cost of the sheep, from where more pastoral leases being developed. would the lessees obtain the stock? At It is to be regretted that the Bill has the present time it would not be possible not made provision for the registration of to buy them within the State. I have all shareholders in pastoral companies. been very conservative in quoting the figure As we have learned from answers to ques- of £3 10s. per head, because sheep on last tions asked earlier in the session, practic- week's market were fetching from 56s. to ally all shareholders in pastoral companies 62s. per head, and that figure does not in the Kimberleys reside outside Western take into account the cost of transport. Australia. and even Australia, and no re- which is quite considerable. cord is kept of their names. The Position is then reached when the I would point out that a proprietary pastoralist has his stocks up to the maxi- company can be formed by a syndicate of mum number, and if he gets a run of one only three or four people for the purposes or two good seasons his stock will increase of taking up various leaseholdings. Pro- rapidly. It then follows that the pastor- vided they have sumfcient money these alist has to be Instructed to reduce his [Thursday, 17 October, 1963.1 171775 stock rate. What is to be the position Mr. NORTON: The question is, however: then? If a good season has been enjoyed How will this be policed? It is very easy in the pastoral areas and also in the south, to send down a map to the Pastoral AP- with an increase in stock taking place, praisement Board showing the improve- no-one in particular would want much ments, and the proposed improvements, stock. However, the position is that sheep and next year showing further improve- usually reablse about 35s. to 40s, per head, mnents, and further proposed improve- gross, out of the district. If the sheep ments, and so on; .but unless the station are in reasonable condition, from that is inspected-and here I might say I do not amount £El at least would have to be de- cast any aspersions on the lessees-how ducted for freight. However, if they are will it be Proved that the improvements in poor condition, the chances are the have been carried out? pastoralist will receive a debit note for the There is a further provision that no consignment of his shieep. further improvements shall be carried out So0 the pastoralist is faced with the without the sanction of the Minister. Let problem of whether he will leave the sheep us consider that a pastoralist this year on the area and take a risk, or cut their decides to put down two wells in a par- throats, or send them to market with ticular paddock by way of improvements. every prospect of making a loss. In this He goes ahead, and then finds that in an- respect the Pastoral Appraisement Board other paddock one of his wells has cut will have a very difficult job to perform, out, which means that it is necessary for because no matter what happens in regard him to put down a fresh well. Before he to taking steps to reduce stock in the pas- can do that, must he wait for the Min- toral areas, a loss will result in most in- ister's approval; must he get the Miln- stances. ister's sanction before he can sink that other well? He should not have to obtain Unless the State Transport Co-ordina- the Minister's approval, because he Is car- tion Act can be amended to permit the rying out more improvements than were transport of sheep by road truck to the required of him. south, and to permit backloading, which would reduce transport costs by 50 per According to the Bill, however, it is cent., the problem of reducing stock in necessary for him to first get the pastoral areas will be a hard one Minister's approval. Again, the pas- for the Appraisement Board to solve, and 1 toralist might find it necessary to sub- am sure will require many hours of its divide a paddock, but before he can do time. Together with the improvements so he must obtain the approval of the to be made on pastoral leases I do not Minister. When a man is willing to de- know how the board is going to be suac- velop his station to that extent-, why cessful in its efforts unless it gives its should he have to approach the Minister full-time services. I think that is one every time for his approval? if he were aspect which the Minister will have to seeking to reduce his improvements one look at, where the board has the right to could understand it, but that is not the order an increase or a decrease in stock. position. He must obtain permission to If we considered the amounts some of put down anything extra; and over and these people would have to pay to bring above the improvements included in his their places up to full capacity, we would plan. find them to be very large indeed. I might add, however, that there is no one station, recently bought for £68,000, penalty in this Improvement clause, would now have to spend another £77,000 though there is in the stocking clause. So to bring its stocking rate up to the re- actually the clause has no power or quired standard. Another station, which strength whatever. It is very nice to know is a very old one, would have to pay what is going on; but what is the use of £38,500; another £42,000; another £55,200; legislation if there are no teeth in it? It is and so on. These figures are arrived at one of those clauses which the Minister should look at to see if it cannot be im- by using the amount of £3 10s. per head. proved. We should take out the pro- I now want to touch on the question vision which prevents a man from carry- of improvements. This is one of the re- ing out extra improvements without first sponsibilities of the Pastoral Appraisement seeking the Minister's approval. Board. The Bill sets out very clearly what This question of approval has long been is required. It says in effect that each required in relation to soil conservation, Pastoral lessee shall supply to the Mini- Here again it is a question of policing. ster, each year, a map showing provements-on his lease-and thehis im- It certainly says in the legislation that Provements he has to undertake during the Minister, or the board, may direct the coming year. Those are the im- one to take his sheep off the eroded areas, provements which would be required on and that he will not be charged rent the basis of two-and-a-half times the while the sheep are off those areas. But rental if we are to get those areas into pro- of the station. That is quite a good duction as quickly as Possible, and in the Idea. correct maniner, there must be someone to Mr. Bovell: I suggest you look at page supervise the work; to help the pastor- 11, subclause (3). alist in that directLion. [ASSEMBLY.]

At this stage I would point out that possible has been done to keep the kan- in the Gascoyne area there are no agri- garoo shooters there, yet the number of cultural advisers at all. There is not one kangaroos does not seem to decrease. This agricultural adviser in the 67,000 square is one of the worst pests in the area. miles I represent. There are 11 agricul- tur-al advisers in the north-west, but as Another pest is the goat, of which people far as I can ascertain they are all in the do not seem to take much notice. Usually Kimberley, and Probably at the Ord River. goats are hard to get at, because they live Surely these people can be dispersed in rugged country. The dingo is going throughout the area. Surely the tech- closer and closer to the coastal areas. In nicians could take over the plans! After this area very few doggers operate. Native all, it is the agricultural advisers who set daggers seem to have lost the art, and the down the Plans for the technicians to carry white men engaged in that occupation are out. growing fewer in number, because the job is a lonely and uncongenial one, although There are many pastoralists in my dis- with many dogs about it may Provide a trict who are willing to undertake soil lucrative living. conservation and rejuvenation in their The Minister should postpone the Bill areas, yet it is practically impossible to get f or 12 months to enable the pastoral com- anyone from the Department of Agricul- munity to have a look at it and find out ture to go out and advise them, particu- what they are up against. They have had larly in relation to contour improvements. very little time, individually, to study It The SPEAKER (Mr. Hearinan): The closely. I know the youger generation honourable member has another five are not very pleased with the restriction minutes. of a minimum of 6,000 sheep, because such a restriction does not enable them to make Mr. NORTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. a satisfactory start. In my area there are If these people are to be forced-and they at least three sets of young Pastorallsts should be-to rejuvenate their areas, then who, for the past three or four years, have they should have advice available to them been developing their properties, while at within a reasonable time. The advice the same time they went out to work to should be given by a qualified person. earn money to carry out their development. We have had some very good men in MR. HURT (Murchison) [7.53 pm.]: the north-west, but we have lost some of The pastoral industry has been described them because of the conditions that exist by the Minister as being an all-important in that area. The technicians are special- factor in the economy of western Aus- ists, and as such they should have a special tralia. It certainly has had a tremendous award. This would help us keep them in effect on industry generally in the more those areas. We need not give them extra remote areas of this State; but as an in- salaries, but the conditions could be im- dustry it has had a most varied career, proved in many ways to encourage them and has experienced, during its lifetime to stay. in Western Australia of approximately 100 years, periods of great prosperity as well Vermin is another matter which is going as periods of serious depression. It has to be very hard to police. Vermin in- experienced seasons of plenty, and seasons spectors are few and far between. In one of very severe drought. of my shires we have not even a vermin When we consider the future of the pas- control board, so I do not know how this toral industry we should realise that the provision will operate. I do wish to bring whole outlook can change completely in to the notice of the House, however, that a matter of months; from a good season probably one of the greatest pests in the with high prices, the industry can, within Gascoyne electorate-and I daresay in a short period, face drought conditions, other electorates--is the kangaroo. He is damage from cyclones and floods, and sud- a very mobile animal, and moves quickly den falls in the price of wool. In the from place to place. I think it is generally same way, the reverse sometimes occurs; known that kangaroos eat more than sheep and from a Period of fairly poor rainfall do. the season may change suddenly, and On a station 125 miles from Carnarvon great beneficial effect on the industry can there have been two kangaroo shooters follow from the improved season, while at with a freezer truck. They have been the same time the price of wool may im- there for twelve months shooting kangaroos prove. This Year is a ease in point. for pet meat. I have not the figures with In my view the most important Provi- me; but it will give the House some idea sion in this Bill is that which seeks to how bad the kangaroos have been, and extend the tenure of leases for a further still are, when I say these kangaroo 50 years. When we look at the future of shooters will not shoot in any area unless the industry, we must take into account they can get 60 to 80 kangaroos a night. how the wool and pastoral industry in Once the bag drops below 60 kangaroos Western Australia fared from the com- they move on. They have been shooting mencement of, say, World War I. First between 60 and 80 kangaroos a night for of anl, let us see what the position was in a Period of over nine months. Everything respect of droughts. Cmnursday, 17 October, 1963.]

From 1912 to 1914 there was a very honey and flowing wealth, so it is interest- severe drought in the Kimberley, Gascoyne, ing to point out that a number of stations and Fortescue. On one station alone the did not pay a dividend of any sort for 30,000 sheep were reduced to 1.100. Be- about 13 years during the 1930 to 1948 era. tween 1918 and 1921 the Murchison suf- When the return is measured in terms of fered a severe drought; and in 1924 an annual dividend, the figure of 3 per all the country from the Gascoyne north- cent, given by the pastoral committee is wards was affected. Between 1935 and not erroneous, as the member for Mlei- 1942 the most serious drought ever occur- redin-Yilgarn would have us believe. red throughout the whole of Western Aus- The member for Gascoyne referred to tralia. It was so severe that at one stage vermin a few minutes ago. I do not think it appeared very few pastoralists would too much can be said about the serious be able to survive. In 1944 the De Grey, effect of the kangaroo on the pastoral in- Fortescue, and Gascoyfle districts were dustry, because this pest breeds far quicker again affected by drought, and in 1946 the than sheep. Kangaroos move hundreds of Murchison district suffered in this way. miles within a very short time, and their Between 1946 and 11951 the Gascoyne had capacity for feed seems to be greater than very little rain, and similarly the Murchi- that of sheep. However, great inroads are son district experienced a drought period being made into the kangoroo population from 1949 to 1954; and so it goes on, by various ways and means. After World War I prices rose consider- In the Pilbara the Government has in- ably and were maintained at a high level augurated a scheme of wholesale poisoning, practically throughout the 1920s. Pros- and I believe that is having the desired perity was then the order of the day effect. Mobile freezer units are being es- throughout the industry. Then came the tablished throughout the pastoral areas, depression, followed by the very serious and kangaroo shooters are liberally re- drought in the 1930s, when a great number warded for supplying carcases to the of stock died, when the price of wool fell freezers. In the main these are being sold below l0d. a lb., and when the whole in- in the metropolitan area and elsewhere dustry faced extinction. for pet meat. However, it is interesting Pastoralists were then too poor to Pur- to note that a shipment of five tons of chase feed, and they had to resort to cut- kangaroo meat left today for South ting valuable mulga scrub to keep what Africa, where it is to be known as kan- sheep remained alive. Conditions were so garoo venison. it Is going there for bad that the number of stations in this human consumption; and it Is to be hoped State which succeeded in keeping on the that an industry of exporting kangaroo right side of the financial ledger by the meat will be established as this will have end of the 1930s could be counted an the a beneficial effect on the pastoral industry. fingers of one hand. At that time most Also, I think kangaroo skins are in great pastoralists owed money to banks and demand now. However, the effect of the stock firms. They barely existed on their kangaroos as vermin still does play an im- properties, and had to obtain permission portant part in making them a hazard for to come to Perth and to send their children the pastoral industry. to school. In fact, they were tied down We must not forget the serious effect of completely, because of the tremendous dingoes. For some unknown reason the liability on their properties. Department of Agriculture decided some It is not often one can say that any years ago to abandon its maintenance of good comes from a world war;, but had the rabbit-proof fence in the pastoral areas it not been for World War II, most of and this has had a serious effect on the the pastoral properties in the north-west pastoral industry, inasmuch as numerous would have ceased to exist. As it was, the dingoes are now traversing that Country Commonwealth Government took over the from the Nullarbor Plain westwards marketing of wool, and the war brought and are creating havoc throughout the about a very short supply of wool. Gradu- sheep population in the Murchison and ally, with the end of hostilities, the stock- lower Gascoyne areas. Great efforts are pile of wool had to be built up. In 1951 now being made to combat the dingo; but we had the amazing experience of wool in many cases the damage has been done. reaching El per pound weight, which was I would say that, by and large, since a price completely unprecedented. From the war has ended the pastoral industry that day an inflationary spiral was set has not deteriorated. Maybe there are forth in Australia, and it existed practic- cases of indifferent management in the in- ally throughout the 1950s up to the pre- dustry; but that, of course, applies to all sent time. That was probably the major walks of life. I1must stress here the great cause of the credit squeeze which was Im- difficulty there is in obtaining suitable posed three years ago. station labour today. It is not only a case Throughout the period droughts still of lack of accommodation. I think if pal- persisted, and with the increased develop- aces were provided for station hands they ment of the stations the vermin also in- would not increase in number. There is creased. Some members may think that too much money in the cities these days: the pastoral industry is one of milk and and men who once flocked to the bush to 1178 'I79[ASSEMBLY.]

earn a living will not leave the cities. As one area gets sufficient good falls to a consequence, the pastoral industry is de- ensure a reasonable season and yet nuded of suitable labour. Good stockmen another, perhaps only 20 or 30 miles could be found everywhere 30 years ago, away Is having a drought. A large but they are practically non-existent to- property has a much better chance day; and station labour is completely de- of getting good rains on a portion or pendent upon natives who, in most cases. it than has a small one, and therefore, however, have proved themselves to be very has a better chance of survival. excellent stockmen. It then goes on to say- Also, the future of wool is ever in doubt. Every year is a drought year (there We have read a great deal lately about are long periods without rain), and the pros and cons of wool promotion. Wool reserve country is needed. promotion Is necessary only because of the fear of the impact of synthetics--man- The owner of a small property tends made fibres; and who is to know what to overstock in order to pay his way, scientific achievement could occur which especially when times are bad. might mean that wool is no longer wanted Mr. Morton: What would you class as a at all? I do not think that will happen; small property? but it will be one of the mast tragic blows Mr. BURT: I would class as the smallest ever dealt to Australia should it come property one of 150,000 acres because my about. However, there is always that fear; opinion is that throughout the length and end it Is the reason for great emphasis breadth of the pastoral areas, taking the being placed on wool promotion through- good seasons with the bad, one cannot out Australia today. This must be taken run more than one sheep to 50 acres. So into account when considering the future 150,000 acres, come good and come bad of the pastoralists. years, will only allow one to average 3.000 I cannot agree with the statements of sheep-and that is a small property. the member for Merredin-Yilgarn regard- Mr. Norton:, Would that be enough to ing the subdivision of pastoral leases. I make a living? am not able to speak with any knowledge of the Kimberleys, but I can do so in Mr. BURT: One man might make a regard to the Murchison and the eastern living; but 3,000 sheep averaging, say, 30 goldfields and, I think, to a great extent bales to 1,000 sheep, would produce only with regard to the Gascoyne. There are 90 bales per year, and that is not a very few properties that would stand any sub- profitable clip. dividing. There are large areas of land Mr. Norton: That is different from the that are not improved, but that is because committee's report. there is either no water or this type of country will not grow any feed. Mr. BURT: I am speaking from my own experience. I do not know to which portion Water. of course, Is the life-blood-to of the report the honourable member is mix my metaphors-of the back country referring when he says that; but I feel it and of the pastoral industry; and it is is very necessary to weigh all the factors a blessing to know that the Mines Depart- over a great number of years before we ment is making available the use of can give any general opinion on the future hydrologists to the Pastoral industry success or failure of an industry such as to give expert advice on the search for this. water. if water is found-that is, fresh Mr. Norton: I was referring to page '73, water, of course-there will be a very dif- reference 126. ferent picture in a. lot of the areas which are now understoeked; and It will he a Mr. BURT: Admittedly, at the present wonderful thing for the pastoral industry. time, properties are changing hands for very large sums of money. Why, I do not I cannot see that any pastoralist would know, because I know of companies with neglect or fall to stock his land If he felt numbers of shareholders, and these com- he could turn it into economic use. By panies are today fighting very hard to subdividing properties, one deteriorates return a decent dividend to those share- the country in many ways; and here I holders. At times, when a family takes must quote the report of the Pastoral on aLproperty-when It is purchased for Leases Committee, which gave several the use of a son, his wife, and family- reasons why it thought subdividing would they can certainly make a go of it at the not be very profitable. These are as fol- price being paid at present; but to say that lows:- a station will return year in and year out a Increased capital expenditure per profit greater than, perhaps, 4 per cent. Is head of carrying capacity, with no not altogether correct. corresponding increase in net profit. We all know that from a seasonal point of view, this year has been the most pros- That is very obvious. Continuing- perous one In this State in the memory Due to the vagaries of the climate in of man. It has been a tremendous season. Western Australia and the irregular It rained, and rained; and at the right rainfall It frequently happens that times, which is most important. However, (Thursday. 17 October, 1963.) 177977 it is bringing its share of worries. There In conclusion, I consider this Bill can are some amazing things happening now have nothing but a beneficial effect on the that I do not think have ever been antici- industry. It will give the young pastoral- pated. For instance, the grass seed menace ists the confidence and the knowledge that has never occurred before. I know that one they will be able to go ahead and improve station in the Gascoyne-I am not going their leases for many years to come; and to mention its name--hoped to shear this will, I think, encourage them to put 30,000 sheep. But up to date 15,000 have the utmost effort into their work. I suip- been shorn, and no more can be found. port the Bill. The reason mainly is the grass seeds which form a collar a foot in diameter on the MIR. BOVELL (Vasse-Minister for sheeps' legs and this simply immnobilises Lands) [8.14 p.m.l: I desire to thank the them and they die. member for Merredin-Yllgarn, the member As is usual in a good season, the blow- for Gascoyne, and the member for flies are very bad and have caused tre- Murchison for their contributions to this mendous sheep losses. Another problem debate. Undoubtedly the pastoral industry of which I have heard but which I find is one of the oldest industries, and was hard to believe is that some sheep are too established at great personal effort and fat to move. In other words, one is un- enterprise on the part of the pioneers of able to muster them because of the effect this State. It is today one of the most this tremendous season has had on them. important factors in the State's economy. These are a few of the hazards which It is not possible to make radical changes can be encountered; and although no-one in this industry, but I believe this Bill will wants to experience drought conditions. be responsible for improving the produc- the problems and worries associated with tivity of the pastoral areas and will bring an exceptionally good season are not very to the north-despite the pessimism of the different from those experienced in a member for Merredln-Yilgarn-an increase drought year. in population. The report generally is a very thorough one, and I believe the committee which The pastoral area covers the greater has been responsible for it is to be con- portion of the State; and it is being gratulated. It has placed special empha- planned at present, particularly to the sis on soil conservation and vermin con- north and south of Kalgoorlie, to provide trol-two important things. Sail erosion an area for further pastoral pursuits. is something which worries most pastoral- The member for Merredin-Yilgarn sug- ists these days, and the Department of gested that a Royal Commission should Agriculture has been very valuable in its have been appointed. But although Mr. advice to pastoralists on contour plough- Wise, in moving that a committee be ig, deferred grazing, and pasture control. appointed, suggested that it be clothed Encouragement to develop leases is all- with the powers of a Royal Commission, important, and I sincerely trust it will be the Government decided that this commit- carried out to the letter as provided in the tee should be appointed to function as it Bill. I know that permission to agist stock did. We want to look at the personnel must be obtained from the Minister. I of this committee. The Surveyor-General would like to emphasise how important it (Mr. Carnim) has had a lifelong knowledge is that should a pastoralist decide to agist of the State in a departmental way and portion of his stock, the requisite permis- a practical way, not only in his sphere of sion should not be strangled or held up by activity with the department, but also as any red-tape delay. After all, an owner the son of a former Surveyor-General. His will hang on to his flock as long as is pos- environment during his whole lifetime has sible, hoping for rain until the last been one of development on a State-wide moment. But when he realises be will basis. have to send them away or lose them, he The period of 50 years was criticised wants to be advised as quickly as pos- to a degree by the member for Merredin- sible that he can do so legally. Yilgarn; but here again it is vital that There is another provision in the Bill a period of years be Provided in order which I wish to criticise. I know that im- that the Pastoral industry might look to provements which are to be allowed to- the future with the knowledge that the wards reduction in, or cancellation of, rent conditions will not be disturbed. It has do not include the improvements to home- been the custom in the past to provide a steads or buildings. Most of the home- 50-year period for pastoral pursuits. This steads are in a pretty good state, and al- Bill provides that 20 Years before the ex- though I said a little while ago that it is piration of the period-that is, in 2015- well nigh impossible to do so, if we are the Government of the day must consider to encourage employees on to a station, the the future of the industry. very best accommodation must be pro- vided. For this reason I feel that were Reference has been made to carrying this factor to be allowed in the improve- capacity, and I think this Bill will muents. greater interest would be taken In give the Pastoral Appraisement Board- accommodation provided for employees. formerly known as the Board of Appraisers [ASSEUMBLY.i

-more authority in relation to the carry- Mr. BOVELL: The new Bill provides for ing capacity and conditions of develop- the appointment of the Surveyor-General, ment. the Director of Agriculture, and two mem- Reference was made by both the member bers to be appointed by the Governor. So for Merredin-Yilgarfl and the member for far as I am concerned, and while I remain the Minister, the Deputy Surveyor-General Gascoyne to subdivision of properties. I will remain a member of the board. believe that at this juncture it would be Because of circumstances, the Surveyor- detrimental to the State's best interests to General may be absent, and he is the key embark on a scheme which would mean figure in the pastoral industry so far as that existing properties would be sub- the Department of Lands and Surveys is divided. 'The Bill does provide for resump- concerned. As Minister I would recom- tion for purposes which the Governor-In- mend to the Governor that the Deputy Council may consider at the time, and Surveyor-General remain a member of the therefore any future development is safe- Pastoral Appraisement Board. I would guarded because the Governor-in-council also recommend that a pastoralist be a will have the power to review the position member of the board. I am making quite from the angle of the State's best interests. clear my thoughts and intentions regard- ing appointments to the Pastoralist Ap- The conditions of development concern- praisement Board. Who the pastoralist ing expenditure were criticised by the might be I am not in a Position to say at member for Merredin-Yilgarn. The the moment; but I believe that the Deputy amount of two-and-a-half times the Surveyor-General should be a member. annual rent is the minimum. By way of although that is not provided for in the interjection I pointed out that over the Bill. years-and the member for Murchison emphasised this point-there are many Mr. Norton: He could be one of the two hazards which have to be overcome by others. pastoralists. Whatever the hazards, the Mr. BOVELL: He could be; but I am minimum amount must be expended unless telling the honourable member what I pro- the Pastoral Appraisement Board recom- Pose to do as Minister. The Deputy mends to the Minister that, because of Surveyor-General will certainly remain as circumstances beyond the control of a a member of the board. Whether the pastoralist, he is unable to meet his com- Pastoralist will be Mr. Butcher or some mitments. other pastoralist. I am not prepared to say. The member for Murchison referred to the fact that the value of improvements Mr. Norton: The Bi appoints Mr did not include homesteads. That is a Butcher. very good provision, because a pastoralist Mr. BOVELL: The member for Gascoyne could take up a lease and for some reason referred to certain provisions in the Bill or other spend the whole of the money that are not enforceable. The nineteenth required on improvement conditions on a schedule to the Act deals with pastoral homestead, and the productivity of the leases. It reads as follows:- pastoral lease would not be enhanced in or in case of the breach by the Lessee any way. of any condition on which, in accord- Mr. Norton: I hope that does not include ance with the said Act, this lease is the men's quarters. granted; or if the Lessee assigns or underlets the demised premises or any Mr. BOVELL: That is so. So far as the part thereof without Our said Min- men's quarters are concerned, whilst I ister's approval, in writing, as required would not be definite on the matter, I by the said Act first obtained; then should imagine that the homestead clause these Presents shall become void, and would not incorporate all the buildings the term hereby granted shall be which are being used for the increased absolutely and indefeasibly forfeited, productivity of the lease. Therefore, if any provisions in the Act The member for Gascoyne referred to relating to a pastoral lease are not carried the board of appraisers and the provision out, the lease is subject to forfeiture. in the Bill which alters the name to the There is no doubt about that. Pastoral Appraisement Board. The board of appraisers consists at the present time The members for Gascoyne and Pilbara requested earlier in the session that the of the Surveyor-General, as chairman. 4,U Government delay the passage of two members. The Deputy Surveyor- this Bill General is one member and the other for a further 12 months. It is not the member is Mr. Butcher, who is a pastoral- Government's intention to delay the 1st; and I think it is reasonable that a Passage of this measure. In 1958, when pastoralist should be on the board. His the previous Government was in Office, the appointment is made by the Governor-in- Minister of the day called for a report. it would appear from the records that the Executive-Council. then Government considered the matter Mr. Norton: This Bill also provides for needed urgent attention. On the 22nd that. December. 1958, the then Minister for (Thursday. 17 October, 1963.] 1781

Lands (the present member for Alerredin- 1961 Mr. Wise advised me, on the day Yilgarn) addressed a minute to the then that Parliament opened, that he intended Premier in Cabinet advising him of certain to move a motion in the House regarding submissions which the then Surveyor- pastoral leases. He was not obliged to General, Mr. W. V. Pyfe, had made in inform me and I thanked him for his regard to the extension of pastoral leases. courtesy in doing so. On the 13th January, 1959, a minute The motion was moved and carried in addressed to Mr. Tonkin stated that the Legislative Council and was then sub- Cabinet agreed to set up a Cabinet sub- mitted to the Government. The Govern- committee consisting of The Hon. J7. T. ment was under no obligation to form the Tonkin, M.L.A., The Hon. H. C. Strickland, committee asked for, of course; but it M.L.C., The Hon. L. F. Kelly, M.L.A., and agreed, although we had reached the stage The Hon. F. J. S. Wise, M.L.C., to investi- where probably, in 1961, we would have gate proposals on the file for the voluntary been ready to introduce legislation. This conversion of north-west pastoral leases. was two years ago, so I do not think any It was signed by the then Premier, further delay regarding consideration of The general election intervened and a this Hill is warranted. minute dated the 23rd March, 1959, was This is a voluntary conversion proposal. sent to the then Minister for Lands. It Those pastoralists who wish to continue was signed by Mr. J. T. Tonkin, the then under the existing conditions can do so Minister for Works, and stated that it had until 1982 and then their leases become not been possible to hold a meeting of the forfeitable. They have up to the 31st De- Cabinet subcommittee and that a decision cember, 1964, to apply for a renewal of should not be made. The papers were re- their leases under the new conditions. turned. In April, 1939, the matter was considered The leases provided for in this legislation by the present Government-and rightly so are new leases and include many improved -and the Minister for the North-West. the conditions, conditions which lessees will Minister for Agriculture, and I were ap- be required to fulfil. It was not a recom- pointed to a Cabinet subcommittee. We mendation of the committee, but Cabinet considered the submissions made by Mr. stipulated that on the passing of this Pyle. He recommended development of measure the Director of Agriculture would 100,000 acres at a time. Mr. Fyfe's recom- become a member of the Pastoral Ap- mendations were more brief and did not go praisement Board to ensure that the pro- into as much detail as the submissions in visions of the various Acts relating to soil the latest committee's report. erosion, vermin, and so on, were carried out. It will be necessary to have regular The Minister for the North-West, the inspections. Minister for Agriculture, and I considered The member for Gascoyne mentioned this matter after many conferences and the question of ascertaining whether the meetings had been held and after several conditions and improvements were being visits to the north-west. I went to the carried out. The reason for requiring pas- Kimberleys with the tinder-Secretary for toralists to send in each year a statement Lands, the Surveyor-General, and the De- of their proposed improvements is to en- puty Surveyor-General. We made a com- sure that the Pastoral Appraisement Board prehensive tour of the Kimberleys lasting can advise the Minister that the develop- about five weeks. ment is proceeding in accordance with With the exception of Mr. Wise, who is what is considered to be in the best in- a member for the North Province. I would terests of the State. say that very few Ministers for Lands have spent so much time in a detailed inspec- I believe it will not be possible to carry tion of the Kimberleys as did I when I on with the Present staff; and arrange- visited the area with the officers to whom ments will have to be made for additional I have referred. experienced officers, both in the Surveyor- General's Department and the Lands De- With the Minister for the North-West partment, to be appointed to ensure that I visited the Pilbara and the Gascoyne the Provisions of the new legislation are areas in the early stages when we were carried out. considering this measure, which had been submitted to the previous Government. I Mr. Norton: It should be the Depart- then went to Queensland: and, through ment of Agriculture and not the Lands the courtesy of the Queensland Govern- Department. ment, I was able to tour Queensland and Mr. BOVELL: Not necessarily. The the pastoral areas in a time of extreme Land Act provides that the Lands Depart- drought, as was the case in Western Aus- ment shall carry out the supervision and tralia, particularly the Murchison and Pil- control of the pastoral industry. How- barn areas, up to 18 months or so ago. ever, the Director of Agriculture, when the I was most concerned to see the problem Bill is passed, will be a member of the which confronted the Queensland Govern- Pastoral Appraisement Hoard; and there ment and the pastoralists in Queensland will be liaison between the Department of when I was there. An announcement was Agriculture, the Lands Department, and made in the Press; and on my return in the Surveyor-General's Department; and 1782 1782ASSEh[BLY.1

I am sure the outcome will be of benefit member, and I suppose it would follow to the state and the pastoral industry that he can terminate his appointment. generally. Clause put and passed. The matter of subdivision and areas was Clauses 8 to 14 put and Passed. discussed at length by both the member for Merredin-Yilgarn and the member for Clause 15; Section 102 amended- Gascoyne. In New South Wales the term Mr. NORTON: This clause proposes to of a pastoral lease is "in perpetuity't ; and add a new subsection to section 102 of the as regards area limitations the provision Act to provide that no improvements can reads- be effected except in accordance with the A home maintenance area as de- plan of improvements approved by the fined. i.e. "An area which when used Minister. Why should a pastoralist be pro- for the purpose for which it is reason- hibited from effecting any improvements ably fitted, would be sufficient for the in addition to those set out in the plan maintenance in average seasons and each year? circumstances of an average family." Mr. BOVELL: On a quick assessment In Queensland the term is "Not to exceed of the position, I would assume that the 30 years" for any pastoral holding and pastoral lease is being developed under "Not to exceed 50 years" for any pastoral certain conditions, and If the pastoralist development holding. The maximum area does not conform with the plan of im- provements submitted each year, and is not fixed in Queensland. desires to effect additional improvements, In South Australia the term provision he should advise the Pastoral Appraisement reads- Board. The department wants a record Land not situated south or east of of the development of pastoral leases in the River Murray-42 years. order to provide continuity in the pro- As regards area limitations, there is no gramme of development. If the pastor"ls limitation on size. In Tasmania, pastoral is going to effect improvements in addition leases as we know them are almost non- to those set out in the plan, that con- existent and therefore the provisions do tinuity would be broken. not apply. As regards the Northern Ter- Mr. NORTON: I can understand the ritory the term is "as determined. Not department wanting to know what is going exceeding 50 years." That Is in regard on in regard to improvements. The posi- to a pastoral lease under section 37 of the tion is that the pastorallst shall submit a Crown Lands Ordinance. As regards a plan of improvements each year. There- pastoral homestead lease, under section fore, if he carries out improvements in 59A of the Crown Lands Ordinance the addition to the ones set out in the plan, term is "perpetual." The area limitation they could be included in his plan for the in the Northern Territory is a maximum next year. He may have a well that has of 3,200,000 acres which is over three times salted up or dried up, and he is forced to the maximum in Western Australia, and sink another well to save his sheep. In in regard to a pastoral homestead lease It the circumstances, he would not have suffi- reads "Economic area as defined."* cient time to advise the Minister of his So, in fact, by comparison with Queens- intentions, but under this provision he is land, South Australia, and the Northern obliged to obtain the permission of the Territory, our area conditions are in my Minister to sink a well. I cannot see why opinion reasonable. I think I have covered any pastoralist who desires to effect most of the points raised and I commend additional improvements should be pre- the Bill to the House. vented from doing so by a provision such Question put and passed. as this. Bill read a second time. Mr. BOVELL: In the circumstances, I do not think any reasonable board or Minis- In Committee ter would objec~t to such improvements being carried out. However, this condition The Deputy Chairman of Committees is imposed so the department can be fully (Mr. Crommelin) in the Chair; Mr. Bovell informed of the developments that take (Minister for Lands) in charge of the Bill. place. In the past development has been Clauses 1 to S put and passed. haphazard and no record has been kept. Clause 7: Section 98 amended- If an emergency arose and the stock of a pastoralist Mr. NORTON: I take it this is the clause was In jeopardy, I am sure will be no reasonable board or Minister would under which Mr. W, E. Butcher object to his providing essentials for the appointed as a member of the board. Could maintenance of his sl-ock or plant. The the Minister advise me as to this? general pattern will be to advise the de- Mr. BOVELL: As far as I know, the in- partment how each individual station- toention of the provision is that the mem- which in the future will be comprised in bers of the board will continue in office, one lease-is being developed. Previously b)ut not necessarily the same personnel. there were 1,700 leases approximately, and lsi provision does not name Mr. ]Butcher. about 558 stations. it h, propose-' t'212t all ':e Governor has the right to appoint a leases for one station will be amalgamated [Thursday, 17 October, 1963.1 1783 so that the board, the minister, and the The reason given by the Minister is Government of the day will be aware of that the new me~thod of Paying dividends the progress being made with develop- has exposed the licensed bookmakers to ments. and will know that they are being increased risks. The other reason is that made in a manner which meets with the the board is finding it difficult to get 1i- approval of the Government for the benefit censed bookmakers to operate in some of of the State. these remote areas. To help the board, Clause put and passed. and to help the licensed off-course book- Clauses 16 to 25 put and passed. makers. the Minister proposes to place a burden upon the punters. One has to lock Title Put and passed. pretty hard to find justification for that. Report Why, in order to meet the requirements of Bill reported, without amendment, and the licensed off-course bookmakers and the the report adopted. T.AB., should the punter, who very occa- sionally has the good fortune to support a long-priced winner, be deprived of por- BETTING CONTROL ACT tion of the dividend to which he is entitled. AMENDMENT BILL and which punters elsewhere will obtain? Second Reading That is a most remarkable proposal coin- Debate resumed, from the 24th Septem- ing from where it does. Firstly, there is ber, on the following motion by Mr. Craig an obligation on the board to put agencies (Minister for Police): in, rather than call upon the punters to That the Bill be now read a second subsidise licensed off-course bookmakers. The next point is that if it will not pay the time. board to put an agency in, then it should MR. TONKIN (Melville-Deputy Leader carry the cost involved to the bookmaker. of the Opposition) [8.52 p.m.]: When the rather than expect the off-course punter Minister moved the second reading of this to do it. Bill he very early made clear what its I suggest that in most places-and this purpose was. He said. "The purpose of would apply to most of them-where an this Bill is to once again fix starting- agency has not been established, it will be price limits for licensed off-course book- possible for the bookmaker, if he does not makers." I had to sit up and ask myself want to run the risk of having to pay out if I was hearing properly, because one of big dividends, to give this class of business the arguments used by the supporters of to the T.A.B. So, where he is within tele- the proposal to establish totalisator agency phone communication, all he need do is boards, and also one used very extensively collate all this betting on the long- shots, by the Press in this State, was that li- as they are termed, and hand them to the censed bookmakers had limits, and there- T.AB., after which he has no risk. fore the punters were deprived of the full result of their having supported a win- We are told by the Minister that this is ning horse. a business he is reluctant to take, and there are instances now where the book- The totalisator was to be one of the maker is turning that business away. In- benefits which the punters would derive stead of turning it away, let him take it from the new order, inasmuch as they and give it to the T.AB. There would be were not to be limited in their dividends. difficulty with regard to a place like Witte- Now we have a proposition where the noomn Gorge, where there is no telephone punters in the city will get the dividends comnincation. to which they are entitled without limit. but the punters in the country will be Mr. Craig: You need not go as far aF subject to a limit. that. Mr. Craig: Not all the country. Mr. TONKIN: What the T.A.B. should Mr. TONKIN: Where there is no T.A.B. do in this case is to say. "Instead of ex- agency. This is betting with licensed book- pecting the poor old punter to carry the makers. burden involved in this proposition, the board will do it; and, therefore, you pay Mr. Craig: You said the country: it is up to the limit we propose to fix here, and only portion of the country that will be the board will pay the difference." The affected. Minister laughs. Why should the punter Mr. TONKIN: Most of it will be. be- pay it? cause there are not too many agencies in Mr. Craig: I can see some rackets going the country yet. on in that. There are enough already. Mr. Craig: There are 4'7. Mr. TONKIN: That is what I said, and Mr. TONKIN: That makes the proposi- I am glad the Minister is coming around tion even worse. We are to impose a to my way of thinking. The Minister burden upon punters In the area where thinks it is a wonderful idea to get bene- there is no T.A.H. agency, In order to meet fits for the T.A.B. and the bookmakers at the requirements of the Totalisator Agency the expense of the bettor: but when I Board. suggest that he get these benefits at the [ASSEMBLY.]

expense of the board, then it is a case of Mr. Wild: You must agree that the "not on your life." Where is the justice limits imposed by the former S.F. book- in that proposition? makers were harsh, and amounted to day- light robbery. I think the limit was eight This proposal is being put forward so to one for country centres. that the Totalisator Agency Board will experience less difficulty in getting book- Mr. TONKIN: The Minister ought to makers to operate in certain districts, bei- bring himself up to date. I shall read cause if it cannot get the bookmakers it to him what wvas said by the Minister for will face the prospect of illegal betting, or Police when he introduced the Bill. This the establishment of an agency. It does was what he said- not want to set up an agency, if it is to be a losing agency; so, instead of carrying Thus, relative to the previous limits, the loss itself, it wants to put the burden it will be seen that the limits now pro- on the punter. posed are substantially the same- Mr. Wild: I disagree with that, be- Mr. Craig: That is not so. cause there were many country centres which imposed a limit of eight to one. One Mr. TONKIN: It is no good for the such centre was Three Springs, because Minister to shake his head. What I have I remember seeing the limits displayed on said will be the result. Let us look at the the board. position in practice. It is a rare experience for the bettor to be wagering on a horse Mr. TONKIN: To continue with what that pays odds greater than 50 to one. the Minister said- -except that they have been increased Mr. Craig: That does happen. in regard to both metropolitan and country trotting within the State. Mr%TONKIN: Yes; but it is a rare ex- perience. In my opinion, when a punter In order to prove my point, let us take is lucky enough to have that rare experi- the figures he quoted. They are as fol- ence he should not be deprived of a portion lows:- of the winnings, just to suit the require- ments of the board or the bookmakers. When bookmakers only operated The punter should receive the whole of his prior to January, 1981, the limits fixed winnings. Otherwise, this will be the posi- were within the State on metropolitan tion: Bettors in Perth or Kcalgoorlie, where racing: for a win 50 to 1, and for a agencies are established, can make their place 12 to 1; on metropolitan trotting: wagers on long shots in the knowledge that for a win 33 to 1, and for a place 8 to whatever dividends are declared they will 1; on country racing: for a win 25 to 1 receive; whereas the punters in country and for a place 6 to 1; and on country districts where no agencies are established trotting: for a win 16 to 1, and for a will know that if they make wagers on place 4 to 1; on Eastern States racing: long shots and are lucky enough to strike for a win 50 to 1, and for a place 12 a winner, they will be deprived of a por- to 1. There were some special limits tion of their winnings. That is not a fair in regard to feature events, such as proposition. the Melbourne Cup. These limits were previously fixed by regulation. Mr. Wild: Were not these limits imposed That does not support the interjection of when the old S.F. bookmakers operated? the Minister for Works, not in any form. In my opinion the Proposal in the Bill is Mr. TONKIN: The Totalisator Agency an unreasonable one. If the punters were Board was brought in to wipe out that to be given some compensating benefit, my practice. view might be different, but it is proposed Mr. Wild: It cannot hope to wipe out to take away something which the Betting that practice In one sweep. Control Act gave them. Under this regu- lation they enjoy the same dividends as Mr. TONKIN: are paid in the city, and they are no longer It did. subject to limits, as was the position under the licensed off -course system. The punters Mr. Wild: It is doing that slowly. in the country have enjoyed that advant- age ever since the board has been in opera- Mr. TONKIN: When the board came tion. into operation, the limits were abolished. The abolition of limits was one of the Now, because the board is running into arguments used in support of the creation difficulties and may be forced to establish of the board. The argument was that the agencies where it does not want to, it seeks S.P. bookmakers imposed limits, and so to avoid the obligation by making the poor retained a Portion of the dividends which old punter pay. So. in the districts repre- the punters should get. That was a bad sented by members sitting on the cross- feature, I agree. So let us now have a benches, punters who are fortunate irsup- board which imposes no limits. porting a long shot in anticipation of a (Thursday, 17 October, 1963.] 1785 large dividend will be deprived of a portion country areas is required to Pay winning of that dividend to the benefit of the book- bets at the same Prices as are declared maker operating in the town. But the on the off-course totalisator'; and as Paid punter in the city will be paid the full out by the Totalisator Agency Hoard. dividend. Over the last couple of years, or since Imagine how the Minister would feel if the inception of the T.AB., agencies were he supported a horse in a country district first of all opened in the metropolitan where there was a 50 to one limit, and area. In other words, the concentration the horse won? His friend in the city has been in establishing these agencies in who supported the same horse would be that area. Since then there has been paid the correct odds, which might be a gradual expansion into the country- 150 to one. That is not a fair proposition. first of all to the main country centres in view of the fact that since the estab- and then to the smaller country towns. lishment of the board-which has been Despite that fact, the Deputy Leader of operating for nearly three years-it was the Opposition states that the TA.B, is able to function on the basis of no limits trying to place the burden or the respon- in dividends paid to Punters. The pro- sibility on these off-course bookmakers in posal in the Bill is a retrograde one. It country areas. I say that is not so, be- is certainly not in the interests of the cause it is the policy of the board to punter, without whom there would be no gradually extend its activity with the es- off-course betting at all, no revenue for tablishment of these agencies in all coun- the Government from this source, and no try centres. additional revenue to the racing clubs. It must be realised, of course, that some of these country towns where the licensed The punter is the last to be considered off-course bookmaker operates, the turn- in the proposals before us. In fact, he is over is so small it does not warrant the not considered at all. The Totalisator establishment of an agency; and the Agency Board is in a spot. It faces the board feels-and so do I-that some form prospect of losing some of the bookmakers of legalised betting facility should be in country districts, and some of its made available to the people in those revenue, so it decides to impose limits on smaller country towns. If we cannot pro- the punter in the country. We, on this vide that facility, which I consider they side, will not support such a proposition, are justly entitled to, what would the and I am surprised at the Minister bring- type of person who feels he must have a ing it forward, in view of the arguments bet, do? Where would he turn to place he used against off-course bookmakers in that bet? Hie has to turn, possibly, to the first instance before the board was some form of illegalised betting. That established. It would require much more position could perhaps develop if no legal argument than the Minister has advanced facilities were made available. to make me change my mind on this point. Simply to say that the bookmakers are The report under the Betting Control exposed to a greater risk and that the Act for the last year. which I tabled T.AB. is finding difficulty in getting book- recently, mentioned there were some 51 makers to carry on. does not convince me. licensed bookmakers operating throughout I thought the idea was to get rid of them: the State. The number has now been re- but now we have a proposition which will duced to 47 because of expansion since enable them to carry on, and we are this report was compiled to the 31st of to deprive some of the punters of the July; and two of those bookmakers are dividends to which they are entitled. operating In the metropolitan area-one at Mundaring, and one at Rottniest. A One never knows what attitude this reference to some of the centres where Government is going to adopt with regard these licensed off-course bookmakers are to the various Proposals which come for- operating, will, I feel sure. let members ward from time to time. It does not mat- know or appreciate the reasons why it is ter whether it Is a complete somersault or not possible to establish T.AB. agencies not, so long as it suits, it is brought here. in these centres. Some of the towns are So far as we are concerned we will strongly Beverley, Boddington, Boyup Brook. oppose the move and hope it will be de- Bridgetown, Brookton, Bruce Rock, Car- feated. narvon, Coorow. Corrigin, Cranbrook, Cun- derdin, Dalwallinu, Denmark, Derby. Donnybrook, flowerin, Esperance, Goo- MR. CRAIG (Toodyay-Minister for malling, Katanning, and Kojonup. I will Police) [9.11 p.m.]: I feel that you, Mr. not weary the House by reading them all. Speaker, and the House generally, will Those are some of the centres in which have had your education improved over these licensed off-course bookmakers op- the last couple of sittings in regard to the erate. operations of the T.A.B. and racing gen- erally. With this particular Bill, might The purpose of introducing this legis- I explain again that the licensed off- lation was to give some protection to those course bookmaker who operates mainly in bookmakers-protection against fluke bets. [ASSEMBLY.]

The honourable member used the com- to extend agencies into those country areas parison of a country bettor having to bet and Provide the same facilities as are en- on a horse that wins at 150 to 1, and joyed by bettors in the metropolitan area. stressed the fact that he would be only entitled to a return of 50 to I1 compared We have to realise, too, there are cer- with his counterpart in the metropolitan tain difficulties so far as communicatLions area who would collect 150 to I by betting are concerned. The honourable member at a T.A.B. agency. Pointed it out himself. He suggested that the off-course bookmaker in a country What is the position in, say, some small area should be enabled to transmit the country town where one of these licensed bets received to the collating centre and bookmakers is operating and is subject to the T.A.B. more or less meet the obliga- one of these what one might possibly call tion so far as a maximzum bet is concerned; fluke bets when a horse wins at 150 to 1? but he must appreciate there is a certain I would say that is a fluke bet. A bettor difficulty in this regard because of com- might be a person who was travelling munications. The honourable member through the area. He has a particular mentioned Wittenoom, but I could refer fancy and puts, say, £5 on it. One can to other places much closer to the metro- imagine the effect that would have on politan area where the same position ap- the bookmaker if he were required to pay plies, out £750 for a bet of £5. It would force him out of business. The number of agencies established last yea r is referred to in the Totalisator Agency The T.A.B. knows there have been a Board report which was tabled recently, number of these licensed bookmakers in and I am sure the Deputy Leader of the the smaller country towns who have been Opposition has perused this, it refers to forced out of business. The member for the fact that the country programme is Murchison can recall what transpired at proceeding according to schedule and that Leonora: and I know the same thing also additional district offices have been occurred at Southern Cross--and there are established at Kalgoorie, Oeraldton, and other areas in the State where the same Narrogin. Since that report was written thing applies. a number of agencies have been established in other parts of the State. The limits that are proposed are not as severe as has been suggested by the Deputy I have visited many country centres and Leader of the Opposition. He quoted cer- have been approached in regard to some tain maximum limits proposed in the Bill; form of protection for the licensed off- but might I put it in a different way In course bookmakers. The approaches have comparison with what was operating be- not necessarily been made by the book- f or the T.A.B. came into operation. makers themselves but the people in the For instance on metropolitan racing, when district concerned. I know from may own licensed off-course bookmakers were of experience-and I can say this quite truth- considerable number and operated in the fully-that some of these licensed off- metropolitan area, the limits of metropoli- course bookmakers, because of the small tan racing were 50 to I for a win and 12 turnover involved and the small net return to 1 for a place. Those same limits are pro- to them, if any, and the risk that they posed in this amending Bill. on metro- have to take, would give the business away politan trotting for a win it was then 33 tomorrow if they could. They would sur- to 1. We are proposing now to make it render their license. As members will note 50 to 1. For a place it was then 8 to 1; in the report, it is saated that a number and we are proposing 12 to 1. On country of them have surrendered their license. racing it was then 25 to 1 for a win; and I believe that a portion of these off-course we are now proposing 33 to 1. For a bookmakers are carrying on because they placed horse it was then 6 to 1; and we consider they are providing a service for are now proposing 8 to 1. On country trot- the community. ting for a win it was then 18 to 1; and we are now proposing 33 to 1. For a Mir. H. May: Don't you believe that! Place it was then 4 to 1, and we are pro- posing 8 to 1. in view of this, I can- Mr. Davies: They must be making some not see where there is any great burden profit. being placed on those bettors who now Mr. CRAIG: I do not say that applies place their bets through licensed off-course to all of them, but some of the bookmakers bookmakers. in the smaller country towns do not con- sider it worth their while to remain In The honourable member says the T.A.B. the business, and they are possibly only is running Into difficulties and is forced to doing it for the service they are providing put agents in the country. I would say for the community. If they do not carry the T.A.B. Is not being forced to put agents or., how will the people who want to bet in the country at all-it is just part of its be able to do so? Of course it could be Policy. It is the intention of the T.A.B. that a town reasonably near may Provide [Thursday, 17 October. 1983.1 181787 the facilities, but I feel sure that if the licensed off-course bookmakers in opera- bookmaker did surrender his license some- tion in country areas; and, by doing so, one else would start up in the area illegally. this will provide a service to the betting public in the areas concerned until such Mr. Davies: Couldn't an illegal book- time as the T.A.B. can extend its agency maker limit his prices? to those particular points. I commend the Bill to the House. Mr. CRAIG: According to the amend- Question put and a division taken with ments proposed under this Bill, that is the following result- what it Is for-to make the limitations on the price. Aye-is8 Mr. Bovell Mr. Htutchinson Mr. Burt Mr. Lewis Mr. Davies: But could an illegal book- Mr. Court Mr, W. A. Manning maker do it? Mr. Craig Mr. Nimmo Mr. Croimselln Mr. O'Connor Mr. Dunn Mr. Rtunuiman Mr. CRAIG: I do not know anything Mr. Grayden Mr. Wild about illegal bookmakers. Mr. Guthrie Mr. Williams Dr. flenn Mr. O'Neil Mr. Ross Hutchinson: They always have (Teller done. Noes-I? Mr. Bickerton Mr. Norton Several members interjected, M r. Brady Mr. Oldfleld Mr. Davies Mr. Rhatigan Mr. Fletcher Mr. Rawberry Mr. H. May: I think the Minister ought Mr. Graham Mr. Seweill to sit down and let someone else make his Mr. Hall Mr. Toms speech for him. Mr. Heal Mr. Tonkfin Mr. W. Ilegney Mr. H. May Mr. Moir (Teller Mr. CRAIG: There is no desire at all to fix a limit by regulation. This is in- Pairs cluded in the Bill. It is proposed that if Ayes Noes any alteration is desired, it should be Mr. 1. W. Manning Mr. Curran Mr. Naider Mr. JamiLeson Parliament which makes the decision as Mr. Cornell Mr. Evans to the alterations. Mr. Hart Mr. J. Hegney Mr. Mitchell Mr. Hauke Mr. Brand Mr. Kelly Mr. Tonkin: Could you have done it by Mr. Gayfer Mr. D. 0. May regulation? Majority for-i. Mr. CRAIG: I would not know. Question thus passed. Bill read a second time. Mr. Tonkin: Of course you could not! in Committee Mr. CRAIG: It is surprising what one The Deputy Chairman of Committees can do by regulation. (Ur. Croynmelin) in the Chair; Mr. Craig (Minister for Police) in charge of the Bill. Mr. Tonkin: I mean, can you legally do it by regulation? That is what I mean. Clause 1 put and passed. Clause 2: Section 5 amended- Mr. CRAIG: As I have not had the opportunity of replying to many of the Mr. TONKIN: This clause is the main points raised by the Deputy Leader of the part of the Bill and makes the actual pro- Opposition last night, and on a previous vision for the altered method of betting. occasion, if you, Mr. Speaker, would allow During the second reading debate the me a lot of latitude I would take the op- Minister was trying to make some virtue of the fact that this was put in the Bill portunity of doing so now. instead of being done by regulation, and Mr. Tonkin: You had the opportunity I interjected to the effect that I did not of doing so last night. think he could do it by regulation. Fromn my recollection of the position, Mr. CRAIG: I thought it was a matter when the T.A.B. was established and the of courtesy to the Deputy Leader of the Betting Control Act was amended, It pro- Opposition in the House that I did not do vided that bookmakers who were operating so: but then the Deputy Leader of the outside totalisator regions should be Opposition Might not know what courtesy obliged to pay out at totalisator odds as means. declared by the board; because I remember taking the argument at the time that that Mr. Tonkin: Now, don't get nasty again. would mean an increase in pay-out by the You are as thin-skinned as an apple. bookmakers as against the starting prices, which was the practice in those times. Mr. CRAIG: There is no ulterior motive Of course, I was not able to see far behind this Bill. I believe it is going to enough ahead then to know that the TAB. assist towards keeping some of these would operate in a way which would result [ASSEMBLY.]

in the starting prices on the totalisator under the circumstances to expect them being less than the actual starting prices to meet this odd fluke bet which may came in the betting ring. But, of course, that up on the totalisator. Whilst it is not is what has happened. impossible, it is highly improbable that anyone is going to have £5 on a rank out- I want to point out to the Minister that sider. That is the type of winner that this has conferred a tremendous financial some woman dreams about and decides advantage on the bookmakers since the to have 5s. on. board has been operating. I got that in- formation from bookmakers themselves. Mr. Craig: It is only a fluke bet. Because of the way the T.A.B. has been investing money on the racecourse, in the Mr. TOflKIN: And the usual amount on majority of eases the totatlisator dividend a fluke bet is a very nominal one. As a for the winner is less than the starting rule, people who are making bets of that price of the horse with the bookmakers. kind do not invest large sums of money. I am not saying it could not happen. I be- That means that the T.A.B. itself and lieve it could happen very occasionally that the licensed off -course bookmakers in other somebody might bet £5. I do not know of than totalisator regions, instead of having anybody who has ever had £ 5 on a long to pay out more than they were paying shot. I know that plenty have had 10s. or out before-as I anticipated would be the 5s. on something they dreamed about; or position-because of the way the T.A.B, is they sawv somebody with a red hat and putting this money on the tote on the white stripes and decided that was the course, actually pay-out is less. That Is colour they would back: and sometimes not just a figment of the imagination. they make a mistake with the horse they That is actual fact. I have read in the intend to support, and support the wrong daily Press where some members of the one, and then find out that they have sup- Turf Club have pointed this out at the Ported the winner. club's annual meeting1 and they have been Mr. Craig: And they tear their ticket up. concerned about it. Mr. TONKIN: And usually those bets One has only to glance at the results in are made with very small amounts, and so the Weekend newspaper and compare the the risk is not a great one. The book- actual starting prices with the tote divi- makers have benefited by the reduced pay- dends to see that that has been the outs. one bookmaker told me it must run position; that in the majority of cases the into thousands of pounds. They have dividend to be derived from the actual derived benefit from the fact that the totalisator dividend is less than it would various T.A.B. totalisator dividends have have been if the punter were being paid at been reduced below the starting prices; the actual starting price odds. whereas previously the experience was that the dividends were somewhat above the I feel that this has been remedied to actual staring prices. If that be so-and some extent in recent weeks, and that I believe it is, from what I have seen-then suggests to me that the Totalisator Agency I cannot understand this solicitude all of Board is now putting on a greater amount a sudden for those persons who were pre- of money than it did previously and in a viously maligned: who were supposed to less disproportionate way than it did be- be a very poor section of the community fore. So the Position has to that extent and not worthy of consideration of any been corrected. But I remember on one kind. occasion I actually took the results out it seems to me now that the one who of the newspaper and I wrote a letter to is not receiving any consideration is the the members of the T.A.B. asking them one who keeps the business going: namely, whether they thought this was a satisfac- the punter. Why should he be deprived tory position. I gave the actual starting of the good fortune which might come to prices of the horses according to the book- him once or twice in a lifetime of having makers' prices and I showed what the been on a fluke bet? Surely the business starting prices were on the totalisator-the is such today, with the protection that is dividend-and in some cases the totali- given and the monopoly that is provided, sator dividend was only half the starting price in the betting ring. So instead of that the bookmakers should be able to the bookmakers being obliged to pay out carry the risk! more than they were doing hitherto, they I was interested In the interjection of were in the happy position of having to the member for Victoria Park, who, I felt, pay out considerably less. could see the position very clearly. The Minister was suggesting that if these li- I would point out to the Minister that censed bookmakers went out of business In the bookmakers who are still operating certain districts because of the small vol- have had that advantage ever since the ume of business they were doing, illegal T.A.B. has been going, and that should bookmakers would start Up. Well, if there have enabled them to build up more pro- is not enough business to keep a licensed fits by way of reserve than they would man going, who has not got to run the otherwise have had. It is not unreasonable risk of gaols or fines, them I cannot [Thursday, 17 October, 1983.) 178978 imagine there is enough business to keep subject to investment tax and they should an unlicensed man going; and, of course. all be entitled to the same treatment. If if an unlicensed man started up he would this Bill is passed, instead of doing that not get any business if he imposed limits. we will be singling some of them out. It So I do not think there is much in that is a sectional tax to meet the requirements argument. of the T.AB. and certain bookmakers who I just cannot see anything to justify this may give the game up. There is no com- at all. My attitude would be different if pulsion about being a bookmaker; and if the T.A.B. were going to carry the cost of it is unprofitable under the conditions let it. This is a proposition that Is going to them give it up, the same as other people cost something, and the cost is to be give up other businesses if they are un- loaded on to people already paying invest- profitable, and let the T.A.B. take it over. ment tax; and it is loaded on to a section Even though it involves the T.A.B. in losing of the betting public in remote areas be- money, it is more entitled to lose it than cause of difficulties which have occurred the punter, who is losing enough already between the board and certain bookmakers in the mass, who now show a reluctance to carry on be- The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Cromn- cause of the risk. melini: order! The honourable member's In order to get over that difficulty the time has expired. Minister and the board, say, "Well, let us take it off the fortunate punter who Mr. CRAIG: I would not like members now and again backs a winner, and let us to get the idea that every second race is make him pay for it"; because that is won by a horse at rather lengthy odds. what it boils down to: he pays for it in The limitations imposed in the Bill are set hard cash. The punter in the city will be at fifty to one on metropolitan racing and able to get whatever dividend is declared. trotting meetings. I ask members who are without any limit. He will get it, too,' in in any way connected with, or have an the country areas where the T.A.B. is interest in, racing to cast their minds back operating: but in the areas where licensed to an occasion when a horse has won a bookmakers have been left-and let us not race in the last few months at odds in forget we were told when the legislation excess of those. was going through that there would be The main purpose of the Bill is to some places in the State where book- provide against the occasion when it does makers would continue to operate all the arise. Very rarely does a horse win at odds time, and agencies would never be estab- longer than fifty to one, so in other words lished-punters will be taxed the same as the country bettor is getting the same punters elsewhere; but in addition they will privileges as the metropolitan punter, ex- be subject to a limit on the wagers they cept on the very rare occasions when an make if they happen to support a long- outsider wins at a price far in excess of Priced winner, fifty to one. Such instances are very rare, In my view, it is not justified, and I am but when they do occur they can be the surprised at the Minister falling for this cause of putting one of the small country in view of the fact that the board has bookmakers out of business. operated for so long under the conditions which now apply. If the bookmakers in The honourable member said that the certain country areas do not want this T.A.E. prices are less than those obtaining risky business, they should hand it all over in the betting ring, and his information to the V.A.3 Where they are in telephone was from the bookmakers themselves. I communication, they can do that. They prefer to get my information from the minutes annual report of the Totalisator Agency could close off their betting ten Board for the 31st July, 1963; and or a quarter of an hour before a race and as re- could then telephone the business through gards Eastern States racing and W.A. to the T.A.B. and let the T.A.B. carry the racing and trotting, for the year there was risk. That would leave the licensed book- a total of 2,713 events, and on 1,600 races makers in districts where there was no totalisator dividends were greater than telephone communication, but I suggest it starting price. There were 119 races in is not beyond man's ingenuity to devise a which the dividends were equal to starting system which would enable the board itself price, and 994 occasions when the starting to meet the amount required for these fluke price was higher than the totalisator divi- bets without having this legislation, That dend. would mean that instead of the off-course That raises another point. What is the punter paying the difference, or losing the official starting price, or who sets the difference, the T.A.B. would lose it; and as official starting price? There is a lot of it is for the convenience of the T.A.B., and confusion at the moment as to who does would be saving it money in the long run, set the official starting price. Is it the I can see no valid argument against it. sporting writers in the newspapers, or is That seems to me to be reasonable in it the bookmakers themselves; or who the circumstances; otherwise it becomes a does set it? I have heard time and time form of additional racing taxation on cer- again that it is a common occurrence in tain bettors in the State. They are all the ring, virtually at the finish of betting. 1790 17901ASSEhLBLY.] for the bookmaker to flick the tabulator, one to have a look at the weekend news- or whatever it is called, up a couple of paper and compare the prices published points, and that is the official starting with those on the racecourse and one will price. I do not think the supposedly official get an entirely different impression from starting price is as official as it Is thought what one would from the figures quoted to be. by the Minister. The members of the Turf Club are not fools in regard to this Mr. TONKIN: I do not intend to take matter, and they complained about this. very long, but I cannot let the Minister The Minister must know that this dis- get away with that idea. That reminds me crepancy has come to the knowledge of of what Dickens, I think it was, had to the T.AB. I assume that is the reason say about somebody taking the average of why it has been corrected to some extent cold in the Crimea as a reason for clothing in recent weeks. the soldiers in nankeen on a night when they would be frozen to death in fur. I have noticed sometimes, when I have been watching television on Saturday if we are going to take averages over nights, that in recent weeks, when the a considerable number of bets, and say prices are shown, the totalisator dividend that overall these bets the prices were is much closer to the starting Price than greater, we are not arriving at the true it was some two or three months ago. position. One must know something about Rightly or wrongly, I have come to the the pattern of betting. The greater bulk conclusion it is because the Totalisator of the betting is done on the first four or Agency Board is now spreading its invest- five horses in the order of betting. The ment more than it did previously, and greatest amount of the betting is done on therefore is getting a truer reflection of the first, second, third, fourth, and possibly the actual betting pattern than was pre- the fifth favourite. After that, the betting viously shown by the totalisator. I would is all over the place, with a few wagers on say that six one horse and a few on others. All one has months ago the discrepancy to do is to have a look at the odds on the was most marked. indicators. I noticed, in some instances, that horses Of course with regard to the longer would be starting at four to one and pay- prices-that is. all those over about six ing less than two to one on the totalisator. to one-the totalisator prices will be much That was the result of the special type nf better than the prices offered by book- investment that was being made by the makers, because there one is getting a Totalisator Agency Board. As a result, the true indication of the relative preference bookmakers have benefited substantially, being shown by the bettors, whereas the because it is when the favourites come in bookmakers are doing most of their busi- that the bookmakers have to face their ness on the fancied horses, and the other greatest pay-out. The bookmakers win prices are only put up now and again to when the longer-priced horses win. They attract a little money to balance their pay out to some punters, of course, but books. they do not naSy out the same volume of money as they do when the favourites 'win. The figures the Minister quoted as in- stances where the totalisator result was Because of the difference in prices, book- better than the starting price result relate makers who were in business, and somae to most of the long shots where there are who are no longer in business and who very few bettors supporting them. The are not agents, have told me that the prices which affect the bettors most are the difference in dividends has meant thous- prices of the first, second, and third ands of pounds to their return: that is, favourites. Up to a few months ago, if if they had been paying out at the actual one had looked at those prices and com- s tarting price rath er than at th e totali-se Ior pared them with the totalisator prices, one dividend price. Having regard to thiat would have found, almost invariably, that fact, and that the bookmakers have bene- the totalisator dividend was a long way fited substantially, I do not think it is below the bookmakers' dividends. asking too much to ask them to pay out at the ruling prices which apply in all Dr. Henn: Not when George Moore is totalisator regions; and nothing the Minis- riding a horse. ter has said has -altered my opinion to Mr. TONY-IN: Oh yes, if he were riding any degree. the favourite! Clause put and passed. Mr. Rowberry: The better the jockey the lower the price!I Title put and passed. Mr. TONKIN: What I am saying applies Repot more particularly to local races than to Eastern States races, because the local Bill reported, without amendment, and races are influenced by off -the-course the report adopted. money being paid on the totalisator on the f ancied horses. It is only necessary for House adjourned at 9.58 p.mn.