Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 13 APRIL 1976

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Papers [13 APRIL 1976} Questions Upon Notice 361~

QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE

1. BUILDING SoCIETY MORTGAGE TRANSFERS Mr. Marginson for Mr. Melloy, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Works and Housing- Will he give an assurance that, if mort­ gages are transferred from any of the suspended building societies to another soc­ iety, there will be no cost involved for the mortgagor?

TUESDAY, 13 APRIL 1976 Answer:­ Yes.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. J. E. H. Houghton, Redcliffe) read prayers and took the chair at 2. AUSTRALIAN CONSTITUTIONAL 11 a.m. CONVENTION Mr. Marginson for Mr. Melloy, pursuant ELECTORAL DISTRICTS OF to notice, asked the Deputy Premier and CLAYFIELD AND PORT CURTIS Treasurer- Has Queensland yet paid alJ its due BY-ELECTION DATES contributions and/ or commitments for meetings of the Australian Constitutional Mr. SPEAKER: I inform the House that Convention and, if not, what amounts are the dates in connection with the issue of the outstanding? writs for the election of members to serve in this House for the electoral districts of Clayfield and Port Curtis will be as fol­ Answer:- lows:- Provision for Australian Constitutional Issue of writs-27 April 1976; Convention expenses is provided for in the Date of nominations-4 May 1976; Vote of the Premier's Department. All Polling Day-29 May 1976; accounts received to date from the con­ vention secretariat have been paid and all Return of writs-25 June 1976. other ongoing expenses-for example, air travel of delegates to executive committee meetings are paid by the Premier's Depart­ MEETING OF QUEENSLAND BRANCH ment as such accounts are recorded. I am OF COMMONWEALTH not aware of any accounts on hand for PARLIAMENTARY ASSOCIATION payment at the present juncture. Mr. SPEAKER: I wish to notify honour­ able members that a meeting of the execu­ tive committee of the Queensland Branch of 3. INVESTIGATION INTO PoLICE FORCE the Commonwealth Parliamentary Associa­ tion will be held in my room at 12.30 p.m. Mr. Marginson for Mr. Melloy, pursuant today and that it will be followed by a full to notice, asked the Minister for Police- meeting of members of the branch in this ( 1) In view of his statements on 19 Chamber at 12.45 p.m. The sitting of the January and 20 March 1975, does he still House will be suspended at 12.45 and will approve of, and believe in, the secret resume at the usual time of 2.15 p.m. methods used by the fine squad under Inspector Pitts? PAPERS (2) As it must be assumed, in view of the unanimous judgment handed down by The following papers were laid on the the Full Court and the findings that the table:- prosecution evidence was tainted with Orders in Council under­ illegality and that the evidence was unlaw­ Harbours Act 1955-1972. fully procured by police witnesses who District Courts Act 1967-1972. entirely Jacked credibility, that Inspector Primary Producers' Co-operative Asso­ Pitts and others have conspired, forged ciations Act 1923-1974. documents and even committed perjury, and as these are criminal offences, why Regulations under­ have no charges been made? Liquor Act 1912-1975. ( 3) If the promised investigation is to Hen Quotas Act 1973-1975. proceed, when wilJ the Supreme Court Ordinance under the City of Brisbane Act judge be appointed to conduct it and the 1924-1974. terms of reference be announced? 3620 Questions Upon Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice

Answers:- 5. CoLOUR OF ROAD MARKINGS FOR (1) I approve of the use of all lawful TRAFFIC methods which will assist in bringing to Mr. Doumany, pursuant to notice, asked justice persons who offend against the the Minister for Local Government and laws of this State. Main Roads- (2) Whilst the judgment may have indi­ In view of the serious traffic hazard cated that the obtaining of evidence for that exists during night hours under wet the prosecution was tainted with illegality, conditions owing to the poor visibility of it cannot be assumed, as suggested, that white road markings, will he examine the police officers concerned were guilty of the efficacy of alternative colours and conspiracy, etc. This aspect will be materials for such markings and, given the included in matters which the New Scot­ availability of a superior system, arrange land Yard detectives will investigate upon for its earliest implementation in the inter­ their return to Queensland. ests of road safety? (3) As previously mentioned in this House, two members of the Queensland Police Force and one ex-member of the Answer:- force have been charged before a court The matter of road markings is under with others on a number of charges of constant review, and the use of raised official corruption. studs on the freeways is a typical innova­ I would direct the honourable member's tion. Road markings meet Australian attention to the provrsrons of section standards and officers of the Main Roads 4A (1) of the Commissions of Inquiry Department are on national committees Acts, which provide that when a commis­ that review colour systems for road mark­ sion of inquiry has been appointed to ings and signs. The latest standards and inquire into a matter and a court is practices are always used. inquiring into that matter or any other matter having a direct or indirect bear­ ing on the inquiry, the court shall have no jurisdiction to and shall not make, con­ 6. PHOSPHATE TREATMENT PLANT, tinue or proceed with that inquiry. SoUTH TOWNSVILLE The pressing of any inquiry prior to Mr. Ahern for Mr. Aikens, pursuant to the determination of the charges, referred notice, asked the Minister for Industrial to could, I feel, only result in the courts' Development, Labour Relations and Con­ having no jurisdiction to determine the sumer Affairs- charges and thereby pervert the true course of justice. I feel sure the honourable As prominent trade union officials in member has no desire to do this. Townsville associated with the A.L.P. have publicly stated that under no circumstances will trade-unionists be allowed to build the phosphate treatment plant at South 4 .. JMPACT OF WAGE RISES ON STATE Townsville, what action will he take or BUDGET can he take to have the plant erected, if Mr. Doumany, pursuant to notice, asked investigations prove beyond any shadow the Deputy Premier and Treasurer- of doubt that no distress, nuisance or incon­ ( 1) What is the impact of wage rises venience will be caused by the plant and on the current State Budget? the Townsville City Council approves of its erection? (2) What is the accumulated percentage increase in average wage levels to date this fiscal year, and has this figure exceeded Answer:- estimates incorporated in the Budget? The Industrial Conciliation and Arbitra­ Answers:- tion Commission is fully empowered under the provisions of the Industrial Concilia­ (1) The estimated cost to Consolidated tion and Arbitration Act to deal with Revenue Fund of award and basic wage disputes between employers, employees increases granted to date in the current and unions. Should the employees of any year is estimated at $69,500,000 for the contractor engaged in the erection of the 1975-76 year. phosphate treatment plant at South (2) The most recent estimates of the Townsville refuse to work on this project, increase in average weekly earnings of then the employer is at liberty to report adult males in Australia for the 12 such dispute to the Industrial Conciliation months ending March 1976 over the 12 and Arbitration Commission under the months to March 1975 is 15 per cent. provisions of section 36 of the Act. How­ The increase in average earnings this finan­ ever, if the existing legal industrial proces­ cial year has been somewhat less than ses prove inappropriate to meet the estimated but, of course, as a consequence situation which the honourable member State revenues from Financial Assistance suggests will arise, then, as in the past, the Grants payments and pay-roll tax are Government will not hesitate to take other reduced proportionately. appropriate action. Questions Upon Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice 3621

7. TRAFFIC SIGNALS FOR IPSWICH RoAD AND figures on their investment policy regard­ CHuRCH STREET fJ:NTERSECTION, GooDNA ing home-financing have been largely unsuc­ Mr. Marginson, pursuant to notice, asked cessful because a code of silence has been the Minister for Local Government and adopted as if they have something to Main Roads- hide- When will traffic signals be installed at ( 1) What proportion of funds is invested the dangerous intersection of the Ipswich­ in home loans to policyholders? Brisbane hi~l-tway and Churoh Street, (2) What proportion of funds is invested Goodna? in building societies? (3) What proportion of funds is invested Answer:- in commercial property? Materials for this project are currently ( 4) What is their policy for home­ being assembled and it is anticipated that financing in Queensland? actual work on the signalisation and auxiliary road works will commence in the Answer:- near future-because of the honourable member's representation, obviously. ( 1 to 4) The Queensland Government has no statutory returns that show the information sought and has no power to ask for such information. However, life 8. LAND HELD BY EDUCATION DEPARTMENT offices have a duty to their policyholders IN WOLSTON ELECTORATE to earn the highest possible rate of interest consistent with safety of investment. I 1\'ir. Marginson, pursuant to notice, asked understand that, because of the relatively the Minister for Education and Cultural high costs of administration involved, which Activities- have a very distinct bearing on the net ( 1) What land is held by his department interest return, some offices do not favour for education purposes in the electorate home loans. of Wolston? (2) If any land is held for this purpose, where is it located and what is the area 10. STAMP DUTY ON LOCAL AUTHORITY of each parcel? LAND PURCHASES Answers:- Mr. Akers, pursuant to notice, asked the Deputy Premier and Treasurer- (1) My department currently holds five parcels of land in the electorate of Wol­ ( 1) Is he aware that local authorities ston. must pay full stamp duty on land pur­ chased in fee simple and only a nominal (2) Details are­ fee on resumption of land? Ellengrove (2) Is he aware that, in recent purchases Corner Waterford and by the Pine Rivers Shire Council, stamp Woogaroo Streets 2.6 ha duty amounting to approximately $9,000 Richlands South was paid on the purchase of land whereas Corner Archerfield and Boss the equivalent resumption fees would have Roads 4.047 ha been approximately $200? The foregoing are primary sites. (3) Will he take action to remove this Goodna West (secondary site) anomaly and thus encourage local auth­ Corner Eric and Queen Streets 8.9 ha orities to avoid the less desirable course of resumption in favour of private treaty? Technical and Further Education- Answers:- Bundamba (1) This portion of the question is based Between Byrne and River Road 9.9 ha on false premises. Local authorities pay An area of 2.43 ha is also held between full stamp duty on land purchased and Stuart and James Streets, Goodna. A also full stamp duty on land resumed. pre-school centre has been established on However, in the latter case, nominal duty portion of that site. is charged on the notice of gazettal of the resumption and the balance of duty is collected on advice of determination of the compensation to be paid. 9. INSURANCE INVESTMENT IN HOUSING (2) No record is available to me of a Mr. Ahern for Mr. Bertoni, pursuant to transaction entered into by the Pine Rivers notice, asked the Deputy Premier and Shire Council involving circumstances as Treasurer- outlined by the honourable member. How­ With reference to his answer to my ever, if he produces details to me, I will question last week regarding home loans have the matter further examined. by insurance companies and as my inde­ (3) See answer to (1). No anomaly pendent inquiries of life offices to supply exists. 3622 Questions Upon Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice

11. AREA IMPROVEMENT PLAN FUNDS In view of the urgent need to raise Mr. Akers, pursuant to notice, asked the funds for flood victims and the need for Deputy Premier and Treasurer- an early drawing date, the permit was issued without obtaining all the relevant Can he supply any fmther information documents relating to the land. This regarding extension of the Area Improve­ approval was also given because of the ment Plan funds into the 1976-77 financial outstanding integrity and standing in the year? community of the promoter and also on payment of $22,000 to the Department Answer:- of Justice as security against the avail­ This matter was not raised at the ability of the prize. A cheque for this Prime Minister-Premiers' Conference in amount was received on 20 March 1974. Canberra on Friday last. I therefore can Provision for payment of security is con­ add nothing to my answer on 31 March tained in section 22 of the Art Union to a question on a similar matter. Regulation Act 1964-1974. Advice was received by telephone by the Art Union Office from an officer of the 12. RAFFLE OF BLOCK OF LAND ON GOLD Gold Coast City Council on 18 March COAST FOR FLOOD RELIEF APPEAL I974 that the proposal plan of subdivision was approved by the Gold Coast City Mr. K. J. Hooper, pursuant to notice, Council on 29 May 1972. By letter dated asked the Minister for Justice and Attorney­ 18 March 1974 (reference 56682 (21) ), General- the Town Clerk, Gold Coast City Council, ( 1) With reference to a question to him confirmed the advice given to the Art on 19 March 1974 regarding a block of Union Office. The letter further stated land at Gold Coast that was the prize that a survey plan of the subdivision had in an art union on behalf of the Channel not yet been lodged with the council. The 9 National Flood Relief Appeal, is he original of this letter is held on file. still of the opinion that a proposal plan of subdivision was approved by the Gold The art union was drawn on 31 May Coast Council on 29 May 1972 and, if 1974, and the winners of the prize were not, what is the true position and why Marion and Ruth Hawkins, "Alveston", did he mislead the House? Somerton Road, Langport, Somerset, England. (2) Did the Harbours and Marine Department, on 14 July or before, grant The financial statement received at the final approval for its responsibilities and, conclusion of the art union was audited if not, what is the true position? by Kenneth Baguley, 3 La Scala Court, (3) What is the position regarding the Isle of Capri. Mr. Baguley is a public payment of the prize of the art union and accountant registered under the Public what is the position if the winners or their Accountants Registration Act 1946-1975. trustees desire to capitalise on their good This statement showed that the gross fortune and sell the land? amount raised was $28,680.72 and the net proceeds of $21,688.94 were donated Answer:- to the Queensland flood appeal. The total expenditure which is detailed in the state­ ( I to 3) A permit was issued by the ment amounted to $6,991.78. No expense Justice Department on 27 February 1974 was incurred with respect to the purchase for the conduct of an art union to raise of the land, which was clearly donated free money for the Queensland Flood Victims of any charge. Relief Appeal. The promoter of the art union was A check of the records of the Queens­ Alderman Sir Bruce Small, M.L.A., and land Flood Victims Relief Appeal reveals the prize in the art union was a waterfront that the amount of $21,688.94 was received block of land valued at $22,000. A permit from the art union. The security of application fee of $760 was paid. The $22,000 was returned to K. Baguley & land was described as lot 545 contained Co., accountants, 8 La Scala Court, Isle in an existing parcel of land of 23 acres of Capri, on 2 July 1974. All financial 2 roods 20 perches and described as sub­ returns were completed in accordance with division 8 resubdivision F subdivision E the provisions of the Art Union Regulation portion 27 County of Ward, Parish of Act I964-1974. Nerang. The owner of the land was shown I am further informed that an application as Nerang Proprietary Limited and the was made to the Department of Harbours estate was covered by the title deed-No. and Marine on 21 March 1973 by Bruce 284326 volume 1571 folio 66. The land Small Enterprises Pty. Ltd. for provisional was generally identified as the Isle of Capri approval to construct canals at Benowa and it is in fact immediately adjacent to Waters Stage I, which is the parcel of the Isle of Capri. Lot 545 was donated land in which the prize lot 545 is con­ by Bruce Small Enterprises, which con­ tained. A plan of the subdivision was trols a group of companies including attached to the application. On 14 June Nerang Proprietary Limited. 1973 provisional approval to construct the Questions Upon Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice 3623 canals was granted by the Governor in 87 of the Trusts Act 1973. This is essen­ Council pursuant to the provisions of the tially a civil matter between the parties con­ Canals Act 1958 to 1960. cerned, and the Department of Justice would not interfere unless a complaint was On 12 July 1973 an Order in Council received from one of the parties. There is was issued granting final approval to Bruce no record at the department of any com­ Small Enterprises Pty. Ltd. to construct plaint being made by the promoter or the canals at Benowa Waters Stage I. This prize-winners. approval was published in the Government Gazette on 14 July 1973. The Order in From the information supplied it would Council was granted in accordance with appear that Sir Bruce Small did not gain the provisions of the Canals Act 1958 to any personal benefit from the art union 1960, and I am informed was approved and that the prize was a donation by a following the receipt of a set of engineering company associated with Sir Bruce. The drawings which included the layout of net proceeds after the deduction of promo­ the proposed subdivision. The Gold Coast tional expenses amounted to $21,688.94 and City Council had endorsed the plans as this amount was received by the Queens­ approved subject to the approval of the land Flood Victims Relief Appeal. At no Harbours and Marine Department. By time did I mislead the House, as the infor­ letter dated 14 September 1973 the Gold mation I have supplied now clearly indi­ Coast City Council informed the Harbours cates. and Marine Department that the council had received a $50,000 bond from Bruce Small Enterprises Pty. Ltd. to construct the 13. COAL FOR ELECTRICITY GENERATION canals. The Harbours and Marine Depart­ Mr. Hales, pursuant to notice, asked the ment advised the council on 20 November Minister for Mines and Energy- 1973 that the department agreed with the acceptance of the bond by the council. ( 1) What stockpiles of coal are at powerhouses in South-east Queensland? It will be seen that even at that late stage the Gold Coast City Council had not raised (2) Is the coal-mining industry in West any objections to the subdivision and had Moreton District supplying enough coal for in fact signified its approval in writing. The present electricity generation or is coal Harbours and Marine Department was in­ still being transported to Swanbank from formed of the completion of the construc­ Central Queensland coal mines? tion of the canals, and the receipt of the ( 3) If coal is not now being transported certificate of completion issued by the Mar­ from Central Queensland, will the West ine Board was published in the Government Moreton coal-mining industry be able to Gazette on 6 March 1976. An attempt was supply enough coal for the coming winter then made by Bruce Small Enterprises Pty. period when coal consumption at power­ Ltd. to have two plans of the subdivision houses generally increases? endorsed by the Gold Coast City Council so that registration could be effected under Answers:- the Real Property Act 1877-1974. This application was refused by the council. ( 1) The total quantity of coal at the powerhouses in South-east Queensland as I am also informed that on 21 January at 4 April was 429 113 tonnes. 1976 the Harbours and Marine Department (2 and 3) Coal is still being transported wrote to the Gold Coast City Council and to Swanbank from Central Queensland. informed it that following the issue of a Since the beginning of this year, the coal certificate of completion the council would consumed has exceeded the deliveries from have no option but to endorse the plans West Moreton by 12 630 tonnes. so that the ownership of the canals could be returned to the Crown as provided in the Canals Act 1958 to 1960. No reply has been received to that letter to date. 14. AID TO TOOWOOMBA HAILSTORM VICTIMS The Registrar of the Local Government Mr. Warner, pursuant to notice, asked the Court has advised that an appeal has been Premier- lodged by Bruce Small Enterprises Pty. Ltd. against the Gold Coast City Council's ( 1) Is he aware that the Commonwealth refusal to approve the subdivision known as Government has assured the Toowoomba Benowa Waters Stage 1, but an actual date Trades and Labor Council that it will of hearing has not yet been set down. assist victims of the January hailstorm if the State Government's relief expenditure I am informed that the winners of the in Toowoomba equals $200,000? prize, Marion and Ruth Hawkins, are min­ ors. Any action to transfer the land is a (2) Is this the true position? matter for determination between the pro­ moter and the prize-winners. Application Answer:- can be made to the Supreme Court to (1 and 2) The Commonwealth Gov­ determine ownership of the prize or an ernment has agreed to inclusion of expendi­ application can be made for the appoint­ tures by the State, local government and ment of a guardian (trustee) under section semi-governmental authorities on the 3624 Questions Upon Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice

restoration and repair of public assets and Board of Ecumenical Mission and Rela­ facilities in the natural disaster relief tions of the Presbyterian Church and the arrangements, subject to the application Council for World Mission (Congrega­ of established terms and conditions which tional). include a proviso that the over-all expendi­ It is a matter for serious concern that ture on relief assistance must be at least churches should be indicated as approving $200,000. such a document which continues to add In giving this approval the Prime Minis­ confusion by purveying half truths and ter specifically excluded the provision of innuendo. Such can only add to the total Commonwealth funds for the restoration lack of understanding of the facts by the or repair of private assets on the grounds public and more regrettably aggravate the that insurance cover could normally be uneasiness and restlessness already engen­ expected to be available for this type of dered in the minds of the Aurukun people. damage. Indicative of the misleading statements I take it that the honourable member's are: reference is to victims of the hailstorm (a) "Mission Probe" claims the con­ who suffered structural damage to their sortium "can even obtain freehold title homes and that this answers his question. over portions of the reserve". Nothing is further from the truth. The reserve I would mention that the cost of restora­ areas remain intact. The company can tion of Government and local-government­ hold freehold title of land off the reserve owned dwellings is also excluded on basic­ on the same basis as any other com­ ally the same grounds. pany or citizen of the State. (b) ''Inadequate provision is made 15. CONDUCT OF LOCAL AUTHORITY for protecting sacred sites". The Abori­ ELECTIONS ginal Relics Preservation Act 1967 to Mr. Powe!l, pursuant to notice, asked the 1976 has very stringent safeguards and Minister for Local Government and Main penalties were dramatically increased Roads- recently. Additionally, the consortium has, in writing, undertaken to meet the In view of some obviously stupid mis­ cost of recorders and negotiations have takes made by some of the shire and been progressing with the Aurukun town clerks acting as returning officers in people to nominate local Aboriginal the recent local authority elections, will recorders of their choice. he seriously consider amending the Local (c) "They have now expressed their Government Act to provide for local auth­ complete opposition to any mining on ority elections to be conducted by the the Reserve". However, the Ombuds­ State Electoral Office and provide for pre­ man reports in his findings, "The ferential voting at local authority elections? Aurukun people are not categorically Answer:- opposed to mining." I feel that the existing provisions of I could go on in this vein but will not. the Local Government Act 1936-1975 I was most alarmed recently at a report under which the clerks of local authorities in 'The Courier-Mail" of Friday 9 April act as returning officers at local authority 1976, that the "Aurukun bauxite project triennial elections are generally operating could founder if the Consortium required satisfactorily. However, I would appreci­ to increase its payment for the Aurukun ate the opportunity of discussing any Aborigines." If this does occur the specific matters with the honourable mem­ responsibility must rest solely with the ber and then considering amendments if Presbyterian Church, which has mounted they are necessary. such a campaign of fear, innuendo and, indeed, half truths at Aurukun and throughout Australia. 16. "MISSION PROBE" Mr. Powell, pursuant to notice, asked the It is every citizen's right to question the Minister for Aboriginal and Islanders actions of Government, but it is another Advancement and Fisheries- thing to mislead the public either on purpose or in ignorance. ( 1) Has he seen the paper being cir­ culated named "Mission Probe" over the It is an unpleasant task to bring the name of BOEMAR, MOM and C.WM? credibility of this publication to the atten­ tion of honourable members, but I feel (2) If so, how accurate are the paper's it is my duty to honourable members, contents? church congregations and indeed churches (3) Has the paper the approval of the themselves. majority of Methodists and Presbyterians? ( 3) I do not believe the majority of Presbyterians and Methodists are in agree­ Answers:- ment with the spending of money dedicated (! and 2) The document "Mission for the use of missions in this manner. Probe" was issued as a joint publication Many active Presbyterians and Metho­ of the Methodist Overseas Missions, the dists, including some honourable members, Questions Upon Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice 3625

have expressed their disappointment to If persons have subscribed money which me that the boards of missions have com­ they now desire to have refunded to them, promised their position to such an extent I would suggest that they seek independ­ to publish this type of pamphlet. ent legal advice.

17. SPINNING-SAUCER TOY 19. TOILET FACILITIES AT ROCHEDALE Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked the SHOPPING CENTRE Minister for Industrial Development, Labour Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked the Relations and Consumer Affairs- Minister for Industrial Development, Labour (1) Is he aware of a report in the Relations and Consumer Affairs- "Telegraph" of 7 April referring to a warning by the New South Wales Con­ Cl) Further to his answer to questions sumer Affairs Bureau of a spinning-saucer by the member for Rockhampton North toy which tests have shown can disinte­ on 1 April regarding toilet facilities at grate if spun at 5,000 revolutions per Rochedale shopping centre that it is minute, spraying out metals and glas' at not correct that conflicting advice was given 80 kilometres per hour? to the Bank Officers' Association by the Chief Inspector and by himself, why does (2) Are these toys on sale in Queens­ he not regard as conflicting a letter from land and, if so, what action does he the inspectorate to the association dated intend to take in view of the reported 11 April 1975, which stated in part, "I dangers? have to advise that plans have now been ( 3) What safety tests are carried out on submitted and approved for the installa­ toys in this State? tion of additional sanitary conveniences for both male and female employees. The Answer:- department will take every action to see that these plans are complied with in due (1 to 3) The matters raised by the course.", a letter from the Minister to the honourable member are covered by pro­ association dated 24 November 1975, which visions in the Health Act, and in these stated in part, "It was established that circumstances the honourable member toilets for male and female employees were should direct his inquiries to my colleague adequate to meet the needs of employees", the Minister for Health. and a letter from the Minister to the Mr. WRIGHT: I do so accordingly. association dated 6 January 1976 which stated in part, "I am informed that an Inspector of Factories and Shops has received advice that the company will call 18. WOMEN's RADIO STATION GROUP tenders in January 1976 for the construc­ Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked the tion of additional toilets. I am also Minister for Justice and Attorney-General- advised that an Inspector of Factories and (1) With regard to the moves made Shops will again visit Rochedale Shopping last year to establish a women's radio Centre in early February 1976 to establish station to be called 4WU or 4BW, has what action has been taken by the com­ any application been made to the Cor­ pany to provide additional toilets."? porate Affairs Office for its registration (2) Is the association now in the posi­ as a company or under the Business Names tion of having to advise its members work­ Register? ing in the centre that, despite previous (2) Is he aware that the last meeting assurances from the inspectorate and the concerning the proposed station was held Minister, no additional conveniences are in November last and that up to that to be constructed? time approximately 1,000 women had sub­ (3) Are there approximately 37 females scribed about $2,000? and 25 males employed at the centre and (3) In view of the concern now being does this require the installation of an expressed by a number of subscribers, additional toilet for males and an addi­ will he ascertain what has happened to tional toilet for females? that money? (4) Why is the inspectorate not enforc­ (4) Who are the executive officers of ing the minimum provisions of the Act? the women's radio station group? Answers:- Answers:- (!) The Australian Bank Officials Assoc­ (1) No. iation has not received conflicting advice and the only assurance it has been given is (2 to 4) There is no official record in that my department will ensure that the the Office of the Commissioner for Corp­ provisions of the Factories and Shops Act orate Affairs of the subscriptions men­ are complied with at the relevant time. tioned having been made or the names of executive officers (if any) of rthe ,group (2) I do not presume to know what is mentioned. in the mind of the association but it would 3626 Questions Upon Notice (13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice

appear the secretary of the association does its limited jurisdiction under the Act, not understand the provisions of the Fac­ will he take immediate action to review tories and Shops Act. the Act in the interests of the sugar (3) Excluding Woolworths, the T.A.B., industry? and the Commonwealth Bank, all of which have separate toilet facilities for their Answers:- employees, the most recent census of (!) I am aware that the recent Queens­ employees taken by an inspector indicated land Cane Growers' Conference carried that there were 26 female employees and two resolutions recommending that the 14 male employees and not the 37 females Queensland Cane Growers' Council press and 25 males as claimed by the honourable for certain amendments to the Regulation member. It therefore appears that the of Sugar Cane Prices Act. I understand honourable member's informant is erron­ that these resolutions are at present being eously including occupiers of premises in considered by the council. addition to employees when assessing the (2) The findings of the Central Sugar requirements of the Factories and Shops Cane Prices Board to which the honour­ Act. able member refers revolve around the ( 4) The minimum requirements of the pooling system and raise complex consid­ Factories and Shops Act are at present erations. I have received a deputation from available to employees. The matter of far northern canegrowers and millers toilets for occupiers, as for the general regarding the effects which a restructuring public, is one for the local authority con­ of this system would have in land-locked cerned. areas, and in accordance with my usual practice, I referred the matter to the sugar industry organisations for their views. 20. APPRENTICESHIP WELFARE OFFICER, These have now been received and are MACKAY REGION under consideration. Until the issues are Mr. Casey, pursuant to notice, asked the clarified, it would be premature to forecast Minister for Industrial Development, Labour any amending legislation. Relations and Consumer Affairs- (!) Has any further consideration been given to the appointment of an apprentice­ 22. HousiNG CoMMISSION PENSIONER ship welfare officer at Mackay? RENTAL REBATE (2) If not, as the Mackay region has l\1r. Cascy, pursuant to notice, asked the such a high number of apprentices and Minister for Works and Housing- is the only major region of Queensland (!) What is the maximum amount that that does not have the full-time services a pensioner who is a Queensland Housing of an apprenticeship welfare officer, will Commission tenant may have in the bank he reconsider this matter? or some other liquid asset form and still qualify for the maximum rental rebate Answer:- allowed by the commission and for how (1 and 2) I indicated in my letter of 17 long has the amount remained at this October 1975 to the honourable member level? that this matter would receive further (2) As the real value of pensioners' consideration when staff estimates were meagre savings has been eroded by infla­ being prepared for the 1976-1977 financial tion to the level where the maximum year. My department has taken action figure used by the commission would be accordingly and has made a submission to the equivalent of the widow's mite, will the Department of the Public Service he take immediate administrative action Board. It is too early at this stage to to upgrade this figure to a more realistic say definitely whether financial provision level? will be able to be made for this appoint­ ment in 1976-1977. Answer:- (! and 2) There is no maximum amount 21. REVIEW OF REGULATION OF SUGAR of assets and no maximum amount of CANE PRICES ACT rebate. The rebate is the difference between concessional rent and economic Mr. Cl!Sey, pursuant to notice, asked the rent. Concessional rent is calculated on Minister for Primary Industries- income; economic rent is the cost of put­ (!) Is he aware that the recent Queens­ ting a house or unit on the market. Rebate land Cane Growers' Conference in Cairns as a derived figure from two independent again called on the State Government to calculations is a book figure kept so that urgently amend certain aspects of the the cost of rent subsidy is known. Income, Regulation of Sugar Cane Prices Act? not assets, is the basis of calculation of (2) In view of recent findings of the concessional rent. Unless an applicant Central Sugar Cane Prices Board in cases declares his actual income from assets, wherein it indicated its inability to those assets are assumed to earn savings give judgment on such cases because of bank interest, but the first $1,400 is ignored. Questions Upon Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice 3627

23. OLYMPIC GAMES TICKETS FOR MR. 24. SCHOOL SIZES, WOODRIDGE AND AND MRS. WICKHAM KINGSTON Mr. Glasson, pursuant to notice, asked the Mr. Ahern for Mrs. Kyburz, pursuant to Minister for Community and Welfare Services notice, asked the Minister for Education and and Minister for Sport- Cultural Activities- ( 1) Is he aware that the parents of Miss ( 1) Is he aware that Mr. Barry M inter, Tracy Wickham, the 13-year-old Queens­ a Queensland Teachers' Union industrial land swimming star and youngest swimmer organiser, is using the teachers of Wood­ ever selected in an Australian Olympic ridge and Kingston in an attempt to team, are unable to obtain tickets to see embarrass the department and mislead their daughter compete for Australia at parents in relation to the school sizes in the Montreal Olympic Games later this the area? year? (2) Does recent research indicate that schools need not be less than 1,000 pupils (2) Is there anything he can do to in size to be of value educationally, par­ assist Mr. and Mrs. Wickham in their ticularly in respect of the capital invested endeavours to obtain seats to see their in buildings and equipment? daughter's events at the Olympic Games? (3) Did Mr. Minter spend as much Answer:- time in Woodridge and Kingston when Salisbury was a Labor seat? (1 and 2) I was not aware that Mr. and Mrs. Wickham, parents of Miss Tracey Answers:­ Wickham who has been selected in the Australian Swimming Team for the Mon­ (!) Yes. treal Olympic Games, have been unable to (2) While there is some research evi· obtain tickets to the swimming stadium to dence to support the contention that watch their daughter swim for Australia schools should not be unduly large, there in this major sporting event. Unfortunately is also evidence to show that school size it seems that they are not the only parents itself has, at most, a minimal effect on finding themselves in this situation; parents pupil performance. While a number of of other competitors are similarly placed. educators have given their views on desir­ able school size, such views should not be I understand that the Olympic Commit­ confused with research evidence. There is tee in other countries make arrangements no single answer to the question of what for tickets to be held for the families of is the best size for a school. What may those selected to represent their country at be the "best" size for pupil achievement the Olympic Games, but such action was or teacher morale or administrative not taken by the Australian Olympic efficiency, may not be the "best" with Federation. respect to economic factors or range of I have been informed that Australia course offerings. It appears certain, hew­ received a very poor allocation of tickets ever, that the best size as far as improv­ for the Olympic Games and that Jet Set ing pupil performance is concerned has Tours, which have the sole distribution much more to do with the quality of rights in Australia, allocated tickets in teaching and the characteristics of pupils accordance with priority listings which than with the size of school enrolments. closed with that company on 30 September (3) I do not have the detailed infor­ 1975. I am also informed that the tickets mation necessary to determine where Mr. have not yet been received in Australia Minter spends most of his time. for distribution. Generally there appears to be a great deal of unhappiness in relation not only to the acquisition of tickets, but also in rela­ 25. SPECIAL MINING LEASE 102, FRASER tion to other arrangements for the Games ISLAND in Montreal. Instances have come to my Mr. Ahern for Mrs. Kyburz, pursuant to notice where people have made arrange­ notice, asked the Minister for Mines and ments some time ago to visit Montreal for Energy- the Games, but they now find that their allocation of accommodation requires them ( I) Have D.M. Minerals sought to to share rooms with other unknown people. vary the lease conditions of special mining lease 102 on Fraser Island? I can understand how disappointed Mr. (2) If so, when and why was the and Mrs. Wickham must be, but I can application made? only suggest that they register their names with Jet Set Tours, whose Brisbane office is (3) Has he approved any changes in situated in the M.L.C. Building, corner of the conditions of the lease and what effect Adelaide and Edward Streets, and explain will the changes have on the environment? their particular circumstances in the hope that it may be possible to allocate a Answers:­ cancellation to them. (!) Yes. 3628 Questions Upon Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice

(2) On 14 September 1973 Dillingham 8 April, to be foHowed on 12 Apdl by a 1\'fining Company of Australia requested conference between State Government permission to pump water from Second representatives and Commonwealth offi­ Creek for mining purposes. On 13 October cials. This was then to be followed by a 1975 the company requested an interpre­ national conference at the Australian tation and modification of the lease con­ University from 30 April to 3 May. She dition concerning the area of land which indicated that this conference would could remain unrehabilitated at any one receive responses and comments on the time. report from State and local government, regional councils for social development (3) On 18 February 1975 I approved a and interested individuals and voluntary variation of the relevant lease condition organisations. to permit the taking of water from Second Creek with the permission of the Com­ I realise that a number of pubJic state­ missioner of Irrigation and Water Supply. ments have been made about the alleged On 21 November 1975 I approved the benefits of the plan and that community further application to make the condition development officers still continue to work limiting unrehabilitated areas more specific. in local areas. I have received corres­ These variations will not affect the envir­ pondence indicating both support and onment. opposition to the plan and from this I feel that it is fair to say that the public are not hoodwinked and that once people make up their minds about the Australian 26. AUSTRALIAN ASSISTANCE PLAN Assistance Plan they will either support it or denounce it. Mr. Aheru for Mrs. Kyburz, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Community I understand that the City of Brisbane and Welfare Services and Minister for Interim Committee for the Australian Sport- Assistance Plan employs an executive (1) Has his attention been drawn to the officer, an administrative secretary, a part­ feeble attempts of the remaining horde of time typist and five community develop­ paid staff at the headquarters of the ment officers. It is further understood Australian Assistance Plan to hoodwink that this year the budget of the committee the public into believing that the plan included an administration grant of is a beneficial welfare scheme? $40,000 and a grant of $60,000 for com­ munity development. This Iatter grant is (2) Has the employment of so many used for community development activities community development officers eroded or for the employment of community the money which was meant for the development officers to undertake such community and do many of the schemes activities. There is as yet no capitation put forward benefit only sectional groups grant provided for the city of Brisbane interested only in their own welfare? to fund welfare projects but it would appear that a number of groups have been Answer:- assisted by community development offi­ (! and 2) I am not aware of any action cers to obtain funds from other sources. being taken by the staff of the Common­ I would not be aware of the schemes wealth Government Social Welfare Com­ which have been put forward but the mission to generate interest in the development of self-help groups is com­ Australian Assistance Plan, nor am I in mendable and over many years a ·long possession of any deta~ls regarding staff list of such groups have played a signifi­ numbers in the office, which I believe is cant part in the advancement of com­ situated at Queanbeyan. munity .Jife generaHy. For example, in There is a great deal of uncertainty the youth area, the work of Scouts, Girl about the future of the A.A.P. As I have Guides, Y.M.C.A., etc., and, at the other already indicated in reply to previous end of the &pectrum, the work of senior questions, the Commonwealth Minister for citizen groups, can attest to the value of Social Security, Senator the Honour­ Iocal self-help to the welfare of our society able Margaret Guilfoyle, tabled a report and I believe that they have an important on the plan in the Senate on Thursday, place in the welfare network. 4 March 1976. In tabling the report, she However, one section of the question indicated that she had directed officers of by the honourable member refers to a her department to arrange meetings with matter which is causing grave concern groups and institutions so that a com­ and there is no doubt that, with present prehensive basis will evolve for the Com­ salary .Jevels, when paid welfare staff enter monwealth Government to review the into _the field, the wages of such sta~ policy objectives which the A.A.P. constitute a large amount of the expendi­ incorporates. ture for the delivery of welfare services. On Monday last I received a letter from This is yet another reason why encourage­ Senator Guilfoyle wherein she advised ment must l:fe given to voluntary organisa­ that meetings were to be held with local tions to continue with the magnifiicent government representatives in Sydney on work they have been doing for many years. Questions Upon Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice 3629

27. TRAFFIC ACCIDENT, INTERSECTION OF 29. REHABILITATION SCHEME FOR CAVENDISH ROAD AND NURSERY ROAD, DRINK-DRIVERS HoLLAND PARK Mr. Joncs, pursuant to notice, asked the Mr. Byrne, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Transport- Minister for Police-- ( 1) Has he read of the rehabilitation scheme for drink-drivers that was com­ ( 1) Is he aware of a collision at the corner of Cavendish Road and Nursery menc·ed at Sydney's Central Court and Road, Holland Park, on the night of 17 Bankstown Court on 1 March? March? (2) Is the course designed to assist people who have asked for help because (2) What were the circumstances sur­ of their acknowledged drinking problems rounding that accident? and the likelihood that they could commit similar offences in the future? (3) Who were the individuals involved and what injuries did they sustain? (3) Has any similar plan been imple­ mented for such a scheme in Queensland? ( 4) Were any charges laid against any of the drivers? Answer:- ( 1 to 3) I would invite the honourable member's attention to my reply to a Answers:- similar question without notice from the (1) Yes. honourable member for Somerset on 26 November 1975. ( 2 to 4) The incident is still currently under investigation and it is not proposed to release information concerning this 30. LOCAL COUNCIL ELECTION, accident prior to finalisation of those BADU IsLAND investigations. Mr. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Aboriginal and Islanders Advancement and Fisheries- 2R. CAR-PARKING AREA FOR PRINCESS ( 1) Did he receive a petition signed by ALEXANDRA HOSPITAL AND 99 electors relative to the election DEAF ScHooL of the local council on the island of Badu in Torres Strait and have complaints Mr. Byme, pursuant to notice, asked the been received from two of the candidates, Minister for Health- indicating that notification of the date of the election held on 30 January last was In view of the great demand for parking not received by them until 8 p.m. on in the vicinity of the Princess Alexandra 29 January? Hospital and the probable pressures that will result from a possible extension of (2) Has any investigation been under­ the ·regulated parking area, will he invest­ taken and, if so, what was the extent igate the possibility of acquiring some or and result of his or any inquiry made? all of the land opposite to the hospital Answer:- that was previously the Brisbane City Council Tramway Depot, for the purpose (1 and 2) A document signed by 99 of establishing a garden car-parking area persons registering a "complaint" has been for the convenience of hospital staff and received through the member for Cook. visitors and for the staff of the Deaf However, it does not specify grounds. School? Nevertheless, procedures adopted have been looked into and found consistent with requirements including appropriate notice Answer:- of the intention to conduct an election. Further, I understand that many of the I have had previous representations on signatories were unaware of the purport of this matter from the Minister for Trans­ the document. port (the Honourable Keith Hooper) and the Minister for Works and Housing (the Honourable Norm Lee). Cabinet has 31. METROPOLITAN Bus AND RAIL decided that hospital boards should not CoNCESSIONS FOR CouNTRY accept the responsibility to provide park­ PENSIONER PATIENTS ing for all hospital visitors and hospital Mrs. Kippin, pursuant to notice, asked the staff. The South Brisbane Hospitals Board Minister for Transport- has, however, purchased property in close ( 1) Are pensioners who have to come proximity to the Princess Alexandra to Brisbane from country areas for medical Hospital to provide additional parking for treatment eligible for concessions on metro­ staff during normal office hours and pro­ politan bus and rail transport services? poses to make such area available to the (2) If so, how can the concessional public at other times. passes be obtained? 3630 Questions Upon Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice

Answers:- (2) What action will his Government (!) Pensioners eligible for full fringe take now to give Queensland a worthy benefits are issued by the Department of shipping passenger terminal? Social Security with a concession card, form TCl, which card entitles them to rail Answers:- travel at half rates within Queensland. (1) The honourable member should keep As provided in the Urban Passenger in mind that passenger terminals are not Service Proprietors Assistance Act profitable facilities. The Hamilton 1975, a pensioner holding a concession wharves used for embarking and dis­ card TCl is also entitled to travel at pre­ embarking passengers are privately owned scribed pensioner concession fares on and operated. The wharf owners have private urban bus services. As far as been mindful of the needs of passengers Brisbane City Council policy is concerned, and visitors and have made conditions as I understand that concessions available comfortable as possible. on bus services operated by the Brisbane (2) There are only about 12 passenger City Council only apply to Brisbane resi­ ships using Brisbane each year and an dents who hold the special pensioner con­ elaborate terminal is not justified. How­ cession pass issued by the council. ever, future plans for the port include the provision of comfortable and func­ (2) So far as private urban bus services tional facilities. and rail travel are concerned, no passes as such are required. The concession card is issued automatically to eligible pension­ ers by the Department of Social Security, 34. BEACH-FRONT DEVELOPMENT AND and presentation of the TCl is sufficient ERosiON proof of entitlement to the pensioner con­ cession fares. Mr. Houston, pursuant to notice, asked the Premier- Will he read the report in "The Sunday Mail" of 28 March headed "Warning on 32. MAINTENANCE FINANCE FOR Coast erosion ignored" and advise what SHIRE COUNCILS action his Government is taking to stop beach-front development that could cause Mr. Row, pursuant to notice, asked the ,erosion? Minister for Local Government and Main Roads- Answer:- In view of the current end-of-the-year shortage of maintenance finance whioh is I have read the article in question. The being experienced by shire councils, ,espec­ report allegedly prepared by "a senior ially as a result of the detrimental effect of officer in the then Tourism and Recreation the protracted wet season, will he arrange Department" has not been forwarded to for his department to increase maintenance my Government or any of its departments finance to those shires that are unable to and I am not aware of its contents or meet maintenance commitments up to 30 recommendations. June? However, I would be surprised if a report of this type could add very much to our appreciation of the problems of .1nswer:- coastal erosion. My Government is y es. My department will continue to advised in these matters by the highly review the general maintenance position for competent Beach Protection Authority. main roads and allocate maintenance The control of beach-front development funds where the need exists. Local is a town-planning matter within the authorities have recently been given grants province of local authorities. All coastal for flood repairs through the Co-ordinator­ local authorities are presently reviewing General for their own roads. their town plans, especially as regards future development of the coastal zone. In most cases, a 40 per cent Government subsidy has been provided towards the cost 33. BRISBANE WHARF PASSENGER TERMINAL of these town plans. Mr. Houston, pursuant to notice, asked The Government's function, through the the Premier- Beach Protection Authority, is to provide ( 1) As he has voiced concern about the local authorities with competent technical Brisbane air terminal, what action has his advice so that they are in a position to Government taken over the last 18 years make sensible planning decisions. to make the Brisbane wharf terminal for Local authorities have been advised by overseas and tourist passengers a first-class the Beach Protection Authority on land terminal with modern facilities and amen­ which is vulnerable to erosion and which ities, instead of the present barn which is should be kept free of development so allowed to masquerade as a passenger as to permit natural erosion and accretion terminal? and so as to ensure that beaches are at Questions Upon Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice 3631

all times available for public enjoyment. 37. SPEEDING AS CAUSE OF ROAD It is a matter for the local authorities ACCIDENTS concerned to implement this advice. Mr. Ahern for Mr. Katter, pursuant to I would like to draw the honourable notice, asked the Minister for Transport- member's attention to my statement on ( 1) How many serious accidents occur­ coastal erosion and the Beach Protection red last year as the result wholly, or in Authority, printed in "The Courier-Mail" part, of excessive speed? on 29 January 1976, and which gave further details of action taken by my (2) As the attempted limiting of speed Government on beach protection. by highway signs has apparently failed, will he investigate the possible introduction of speed governors on cars in an endeavour to secure a massive saving of life and property such as occurred in Europe during 35. GRASS ON RAILWAY PROPERTY, the fuel crisis, a saving in fuel consumption COORPAROO-CANNON HILL and the freeing of police for other import­ Mr. Ho~on, pursuant to notice, asked ant work? the Minister for Transport- (3) Would this also ensure that P­ plate and other young drivers could not Will he ensure that the grass on railway indulge in excessive and dangerous speeds? property between Coorparoo and Cannon Hill Railway Stations is cut and the area generally cleaned up, in order to remove Answers:- the threat of vermin to the residents adjac­ ent to the railway line? (1) This information is not available, as accident figures published by the Bureau of Census and Statistics do not show "con­ Answer:- tributing circumstances". There is no need for the honourable (2) Over a period of time I have received member to take an interest in the area various representations from honourable within my electorate as I can assure him members, particularly the honourable that it is well represented. However, the member for Windsor, as to the use of answer is, "Yes." speed governors and have myself attended demonstrations of their use. The hon­ ourable member would be interested to know that I gave permission several months 36. TV CIGARETTE ADVERTISEMENTS ago for speed control devices of Australian manufacture to be fitted to my own Minis­ Mr. Lindsay, pursuant to notice, asked the terial vehicle and three other departmental Minister for Health- vehicles for an experimental period. How­ ( 1) With regard to the many variations ever, to date my offer has not been taken of cancer, is he aware that approximately up. 23 per cent of deaths in Australia during The question has been examined by the 1974-75 resulted from one of its various Traffic Advisory Committee constituted forms, that approximately 20 per cent of under the Traffic Act and it was decided all Australian cancers are directly related that the fitting of governors should not be to cigarette-smoking and that cigarette sales made compulsory. The proposition that and cigarette-smoking are on the increase speed of vehicles should be governed, in Australia? whilst having apparent attractions, involves (2) In view of these matters, will he problems of safety as well as enforcement. comment on my opm10n that super­ There are two basic types, one of which sophisticated cigarette advertisements, by governs the engine speed and the other, way of the all-persuasive colour television, the speed of the vehicle. The former are not in the public interest? effects hill-climbing and traffic-driving capabilities, whilst vehicle speed control Answers:- poses danger in overtaking manoeuvres and requires the fitting of an overriding device. (!) The Australian Bureau of Statistics advises that in Australia in 1974, 15.35 (3) Possibly this could be a result in per cent of all deaths were due to cancer some cases, but a governor operating for and of these 18.05 per cent were due a 100 km/h speed zone, unless altered to cancer of the lung. The tobacco manu­ for a 60 km/h speed zone, could still factured has fallen over the past two years result in excessive speed, as would be the but the number of manufactured cigarettes case where road and weather conditions has increased. dictated a much lower speed than was permitted for any area. However, the (2) I am advised that the Common­ honourable member should realise that wealth Government is proposing to ban not all P-plate and young drivers indulge cigarette and tobacco advertising on tele­ in driving at excessive and dangerous vision from 1 September 1976. speeds. 3632 Questions Upon Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Upon Notice

38. REGISTRATION OF BABY-SITIING of 1963. The objective in this is to AGENCIES ensure that supervision may be exercised Mr. Yewdale, pursuant to notice, asked over private employment exchanges to see the Minister for Community and Welfare that only fit and proper persons receive Services and Minister for Sport- a licence and, when such licences are granted, to see that the business is pro­ As a result of the abduction of a baby perly conducted. The issue of such a by a baby-sitter employed by an agency, licence entails a hearing before a stipen­ has any consideration been given to the diary magistrate. Those agencies set up registration of baby-sitting agencies? for the purpose of arranging baby-sitters for which fees are paid come within the Answer:- ambit of the requirements of these I am aware of an incident which occur­ regulations. red in Sydney in January. At the time, I I understand, however, that the issue made inquiries as to the advisability of is being further examined in some depth introducing a system of licensing baby­ by the Co-ordinating Committee on Child sitting agencies in this State. Abuse. The membership of this com­ The object of licensing baby-sitting mittee consists of the Director, Depart­ organisations, as suggested in the publicity ment of Children's Services, the Director associated with the incident which occurred of Maternal and Child Health, the Com­ in Sydney, appears to be to provide an missioner of Police and two paediatricians, assurance to people who wish to avail one nominated by each of the two major themselves of baby-sitting services that they children's hospitals in Brisbane. This com­ would be provided with reliable and trust­ mittee will be making submissions to me worthy persons to care for their children. in regard to the recommendations made concerning non-accidental injury to children It is considered that there is no way in the Report and Recommendations of in which officers of my department could the Commission of Inquiry into the Nature ensure that this would be the case and, and Extent of the Problems Confronting consequently, the licensing of baby-sitting Youth in Queensland. agencies could result in parents who would otherwise not consider employing a baby sitter, other than someone they knew and trusted, being induced to use a licensed 39. RAILWAY EMBANKMENT AS CAUSE service in the belief that there was no OF FLOODING, FOREST HILL AND LA!DLEY risk involved. The serious implications stemming from this should anything go Mr. Y ewdale, pursuant to notice, asked wrong are apparent. the Minister for Transport- In the light of the foregoing, it appears In the face of what Laidley Shire that the licensing of baby-sitting agencies councillors call irrefutable proof contained could have quite serious dysfunctional con­ in photographs on display in the Council sequences, may not ensure the desired Chambers that a 4 km railway embank­ objectives and may be seriously mislead­ ment had caused flooding in Forest Hill ing to innocent people. I am also of and Laidley townships by obstructing the the opinion that it is the responsibility of free flow of storm water, what action has parents to protect their children and that the Government taken to prevent future it is up to them to choose competent and flooding and recompense those who have reliable people to care for them. lost as a result of the department's actions? Another consideration in relation to this matter is that a great many people engage Answer:- in baby-sitting on a part-time basis as a means of supplementing their income and There have been many approaches and for the most part they would be personally strong representations by the honourable and favourably known. to the parents wish­ member for Somerset (Mr. W. A. M. ing to utilise their services. It is felt that Gunn), who has expressed concern for to impose registration formalities on such some considerable time. However, railway people would be unnecessary and would engineers do not share the view expressed inevitably produce a storm of protest from by the Laidley Shire councillors. The em­ a large section of the community-not only bankment depicted in the photograph re­ those who act as baby-sitters themselves ferred to has existed with very little altera­ but also the people who employ their tion in waterways since the time of con­ services. struction of the railway and it is not con­ sidered that this embankment would cause It should also be borne in mind that, any back-up of water which would extend in pursuance of Part V of the Labour to Laidley and cause flooding at that place. and Industry Acts 1946-1963, private The track levels in the vicinity are 20 ft. employment exchanges are required to lower than at Laidley. Investigations have obtain a licence to operate in accordance also failed to establish that this embank­ with the regulations prescribed by the ment has any effect on flooding at Forest Private Employment Exchanges Regulations Hill. Questions Without Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Questions Without Notice 3633

40. BREACHES OF LICENSING LAWS BY the union building as the Whitlam Room? CLUBS AND SPORTING BoDIES Will he see what power he has to reverse this deplorable rat-baggery by the university's Mr. Yewdale, pursuant to notice, asked the radical Left, which contemptuously deni­ Minister for Justice and Attorney-General- grates a great Queenslander who had close In the past three years, how many regis­ association with the university, in order to tered clubs and sporting bodies have been gain cheap political capital by extolling an called upon to show cause why they should A.L.P. politician who was judged by the not be dealt with under the State's licens­ electorate as the most despised and unwanted ing laws for serving non-members or leader ever produced by any party in Aus­ under-age drinkers or for operating out­ tralia's political history. side set hours? Mr. BIRD: This matter was brought to Answer:- my attention. I do not know how it was Bowling clubs 8 done, but I can only assume that the usual very small minority rat-bag group, if we Golf clubs 12 may call it that, out at the university was Registered clubs 20 responsible for it. Whether or not I have Ex-servicemen's clubs 4 any power in this matter I do not know. It was suggested to me that, following the Principal sporting clubs 2 change of name to the E. G. Whitlam Room, there was a possibility that the room might be used for toilets. I do not know. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

INVESTIGATION INTO POLICE DEPARTMENT ADMINISTRATION MINING IN AURUKUN AREA Mr. BURNS: I ask the Minister for Police: Mr. TENNI: I ask the Minister for Mines When will .the two Scotland Yard investiga­ and Energy: Would he advise me if mining tors who visited Queensland last year and has actually commenced in the Aurukun returned to London for Christmas return to area? Brisbane to complete their inquiry and report? Mr. CAMM: No. I have been amazed Mr. HODGES: Very soon, I hope. to read reports by supposedly knowledge­ able people that the Aborigines were happy Mr. Burns: We all share your hope. while it was just an authority to prospect, but that once mining commenced they Mr. SPEAKER: Order! became dissatisfied. For the benefit of the House I might mention that it is contained LOADING FACILITIES AT BRISBANE ABATTOIR in the Bill that- "The Companies shall . . . make Mr. BURNS: I ask the Minister for Pri­ environmental studies in accordance with mary Industries: Is he aware of the dispute the guide lines particulars whereof are set that is developing at ·the Metropolitan Abat­ out in the First Schedule hereto to control toir Board over the failure of the planners of the nature and extent of such studies." the new abattoir to provide updated loading techniques for truck drivers and others who The companies cannot commence mining are removing meat from the abattoirs? As until an environmental statement following the Transport Workers' Union made a reque&t such studies has been issued to the relevant in December 1974 for steps to be taken to Minister who, in this case, will be the provide modern loading techniques and as Premier. The conditions associated with there is a threat of industrial action if some­ mining will relate to that environmental thing does not happen, will the Minister take statement. The Bill also states that the steps to see that men are not forced to carry companies shall furnish reports on the up to 300 lb. on their own away from the environmental studies relating to it- abattoir in future? "(i) all mining operations and associated activities; Mr. SULLIVAN: I know the dispute exists. (ii) the refinery referred to in clause 14 Negotiations are going on between the author­ of Part III; ity and the unions. If the honourable member will put his question on notice I shall give a (iii) water supply to mine, refinery, har- detailed explanation and bring him up to date bour and town; on the present position. (iv) harbour and harbour works; (v) town and service routes; Mr. BURNS: I put it on notice. (vi) land required for the purposes of this Agreement; RENAMING OF ROOM BY QUEENSLAND (vii) smelter." UNIVERSITY UNION This all relates to the proper care of the Mr. PORTER: I ask the Minister for environment. The Bill states further­ Education and Cultural Activities: Is he "The Companies shall not commence aware that the students' union at the univer­ any mining or other development referred sity has renamed the J. D. Story Room in to in clause 3 of this Part II unless and 3634 Questions Without Notice [13 APRIL 1976] Stock Act Amendment Bill

until the Minister and the relevant statu­ (j) Department of Electricity Supply tory authorities have approved in writing (k) Department of Forestry the proposals of the Companies in relation (I) Department of Lands." thereto for the proper care of the environ­ ment." So anyone who reads the Bill can readily see and realise that it provides for the needs Mr. Jensen: You're reading that from the of the people of the area and the protection BilL of the environment, and also that it lays down very precisely what the mining companies Mr. CAMM: For the information of the must do before they may commence mining honourable member for Bundaberg, yes, I at Aurukun. am reading clauses of the Bill, because it would appear that the critics of this mining complex have not taken the trouble to read the Bill themselves to see that before mining DANGERS OF WOOL-HANDLING DISPUTE TO can take place a proper environmental study QUEENSLAND ECONOMY must be made and a statement based on Mr. McKECHNIE: I ask the Premier: Will that study presented to the relevant Minister. he please advise the House and the people of The First Schedule of the Bill sets out guide­ Queensland of the dangers of the current lines for environmental studies. These are: wool-handling dispute to the economy of description of present land use; determina­ Queensland? tion of areas of special environmental sig­ nificance; fauna and flora studies; land­ Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: I am sure that scape aspect and sociology; overburden management; plant, temporary stockpiles, every member of the House must be deeply ponds, etc.; wash water, etc.; and disposal disturbed and concerned about the wool­ of reject equipment and mine-site wastes. handling dispute, as it is known, which has The First Schedule further sets out that the held up many hundreds of thousands of companies will report on- bales of wool that are urgently needed in overseas countries such as Japan. Those "Sociological effects of rapid increase in population; countries will have to change to other mat­ erials in manufacturing their goods if wool Effects on the natural environment of is not available, and, in addition, primary the region due to increased human pres­ producers will not receive money for their sure and intervention; wool. Those consequences demonstrate very Environmental effects of increased waste clearly ·the callous attitudes of people who are generation and associated problems of involved in the dispute who are prepared to disposal and drainage; hold to ransom not only primary producers Sociological needs for recreation and but also an industry that is of great import­ aesthetics as a consequence of increased ance to this country and to other countries. population; These are the people whom honourable mem­ Sociological needs as they relate to bers opposite support. The A.L.P. backs indigenous employees." them and supports them whole-heartedly in All that has to be done is contained in the their general attitudes and actions in this Bill. All this information has to be pre­ regard. Never once does one hear the sented to the Minister before the companies Leader of the Opposition condemn or take can commence mining. They must consult a stand against these people, because the with various advisory bodies and administer­ Opposition is at one with their attitude and ing authorities. For the benefit of the House apprQach that hurt so many people. and for the edification of those people who apparently cannot or will not read the Bill before they start making criticisms in the ANZAC DAY ACT AMENDMENT BILL Press, I will just read the list of bodies with which the companies have to consult when THIRD READING they are making an environmental impact Bill, on motion of Mr. Campbell, read a study. They are-- third time. "(a) Water Quality Council of Queens- land (b) Air Pollution Council of Queensland RURAL MACHINERY SAFETY BILL (c) Department of Mines THIRD READING (d) Department of Health (e) Department of Primary Industries Bill, on motion of Mr. Campbell, read a (f) Department of Irrigation and Water third time. Supply (g) Department of Commercial and Industrial Development STOCK ACT AMENDMENT BILL (h) Department of Harbours and THIRD READING Marine (i) Department of Aboriginal and Bill, on motion of Mr. Sullivan, read a Islanders Advancement third time. Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3635

LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT a view to withdrawing approval of advertise­ AMENDMENT BILL ments that it is considered may give a wrong impression to the general public. THIRD READING The objective is to tighten considerably Bill, on motion of Mr. Hinze, read a third the standards and guide-lines, which the time. registrar will enforce, in respect of advertis­ ing and to ensure that building societies THE CRIMINAL CODE AMENDMENT foster and promote those objects for which BILL they were formed. It is not my intention to speak further at THIRD READING length on the amending Bill at this stage, Bill, on motion of Mr. Knox, read a third but I do give notice now that I intend to time. seek leave of the House to introduce an additional matter relative to the administra­ tion of the Act so that arrangements under INVASION OF PRIVACY ACT way to rescue and fully safeguard the inter­ AMENDMENT BILL ests of members of the suspended societies may be put into effect, and in the committee THIRD READING stage to move amendments, which I am sure Bill, on motion of Mr. Knox, read a third have already been circulated. time. I commend the Bill to the House.

REAL PROPERTY ACT AMENDMENT Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (12.13 BILL p.m.): I repeat what I said at the introductory stage, that is, that the Opposition has no THIRD READING complaint at all with the Bill. It is certainly a step in the right direction. However, as Bill, on motion of Mr. Knox, read a third I have said previously, it is long overdue and time. should have been introduced at the latest in September or October of last year. BUILDING SOCIETIES ACT Generally speaking, the amendments are AMENDMENT BILL a step in the right direction and provide a long-overdue tightening of controls over build­ SECOND READING ing societies in Queensland. This should Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for result in greater security for the people who Works and Housing) (12.9 p.m.): I move­ have their money invested in building "That the Bill be now read a second societies. time." I take this opportunity to congratulate the In my introductory speech I outlined most Deputy Premier and Treasurer. This is the of the main amendments to the existing Act. best piece of socialist legislation that has been The amending Bill was introduced into the introduced into this Chamber during the four Chamber on Wednesday last, 7 April 1976. I years that I have been here. I commend am sure that honourable members have taken him for it. Perhaps the Treasurer has mel­ the opportunity to study the comprehensive lowed with age, but I have noticed that amendments. whenever he introduces a Bill he moves a little further to the Left. For this I con­ The provisions of the Bill are designed to gratulate him. If he maintains this rate of provide necessary and adequate control of the improvement I shall recommend that he be activities of building societies in this State, and awarded the Gough Whitlam Good Conduct to safeguard to the utmost extent possible the Medal. interests of the general public who are mem­ bers and depositors of building societies in There is one warning that I would give the Queensland. Treasurer. I realise that he is a wily old campaigner and possibly does not need any I do not intend at this stage to speak at advice from me. Nevertheless I warn him length on particular provisions of the Bill, as that clandestine meetings have been held I feel sure that most if not all comments by between members of the building societies honourable members were covered in my and the Premier and that secret meetings have reply last Wednesday. also been held between representatives of the There is one aspect, however, which I building societies and members of the Nat­ would like to bring to the notice of hon­ ional Party caucus. I say to the Treasurer, ourable members and that concerns the mat­ "Watch your back." ter of advertising which is engaged upon Even though the Opposition supports the by societies. amendments, we hope that today will not be a I point out to honourable members that confession of sins day. We hope that we for some considerable time now 1he regis­ will not simlpy say to some of the crooks trar's office, at my instruction, has been con­ who have operated in certain building ducting a complete and thorough review of all societies, "Go. Your sins are forgiven. We advertising used by building societies, with give you absolution." 3636 Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

Some people, particularly certain directors and which is grossly misleading. I shall read of the Great Australian Permanent Building an entire paragraph so that I shall not get Society-the people whose rorts and rackets it out of context- precipitated the introduction of this legisla­ "They get a sound, confident beginning tion-must be punished. I hope they do not by coming to Metropolitan Permanent, go scot-free. I urge the Treasurer and the because we're the Biggest Building Society Minister in charge of the Bill to bring this in the State, and to back up our claims matter to the attention of the Fraud Squad. to rock-solid security, ..." The directors of the Great Australian Per­ manent Building Society and the United That is totally wrong and simply misleading. I Savings and City Savings Building Society ask the Treasurer or the Minister for Works should be investigated by the squad. and Housing to use his good offices to have this practice discontinued. The advertisement These amendments will not mean much continues- unless the legislation is properly policed. As " ... we remind them that all our home Peter Connolly, Q.C., pointed out in his loans are covered against loss with the report to the Government a couple of years Housing Loans Insurance Corporation, a ago, there is a tendency whenever .scandals Commonwealth Government Statutory occur in the business sector for the Govern­ Authority. Safe! Permanently safe." ment to rush new legislation onto the Statute Book instead of enforcing properly the exist­ This is important. I hope the Treasurer is ing legislation. As I have said on earlier listening to me. I ask him to look at this occasions, our legislation in relation to build­ ad and approach the managing director of ing societies has not been properly policed. the Metropolitan Permanent Building Society to make the society conform to the amend­ For example, the unhappy position of ments in the Bill we are discussing today. many investors in building societies arose As I said, societies have been deferring through seriously misleading ads. Until repayments and making terms fixed. That is these amendments come into force, the wrong, and it is certainly misleading to many Government, through the registrar, has con­ small investors in these societies who have trol over advertising. But the controls have no great knowledge of finance. not been enforced. The registrar apparently approved of hundreds of ads that gave Some advertisements have also included investors completely incorrect impressions of phrases such as, "rock-solid security" when the nature of their investments, namely, that investors have no security because they are societies were banks (which they are not, withdrawable shares without any legally although the advertisements suggest that they enforceable rights. Phrases such as "per­ are). Investments are not at call because manent safety" are also included when the the societies' rules allow deferment; invest­ facts do not justify their use. ments are not deposits or loans but in reality Another provision in the Bill brings the are shares, and building societies have no building society legislation into line with the legal requirement to repay capital or pay Companies Act. This is long overdue. Had any particular dividend. The provisions in that been done ages ago, some of the rorts the Bill designed to prevent fraud and false and rackets in the Great Australian Per­ pretences by building societies are long manent Building Society, Australian Per­ overdue. manent Building Society and the Tasman While the system continues and while Building Society would not have occurred. advertisements that constitute false pretences In earlier speeches I have said that I believed are authorised by the registrar there is little the managing director of the Tasman Per­ point in providing penalties for the use of manent Building Society, a Mr. Colin false pretences by officers of building Sinclair, was less than honest. One Govern­ societies. I will say that there has been ment member said to me in the lobby-! shall some improvement. I note from the not name him-"This fellow is well spoken and Minister's speech today that improvements he dresses well." Of course he does; that have been written into the legislation to is the hallmark of a successful con man, and prevent misleading advertising by building that is what Mr. Sinclair is. societies. I noted in the week-end Press I agree entirely with the Minister's com­ that the use of the term, "Government ments-it is not too often that I agree with guaranteed loans", which was previously a Minister-made last week when exposing grossly misleading, has been discontinued. Mr. Sinclair for what he is, that is, a smart, But I point out to the Treasurer that the fast-talking con man. advertisements are still misleading because they do not refer to any fixed term, although To illustrate some of the rorts that took the rules clearly provide that societies can place in the building societies before the defer repayment and so make the term fixed. introduction of the amendments to bring Some societies have been doing that for a building society legislation into line with the long time. Companies Act, I refer to a company named Cadiz Pty. Ltd., with its registered office at I have here a copy of an advertisement by 54 Looranah Street, Jindalee. The directors the Metropolitan Permanent Building Society of the company are N. K. Meredith and that appeared in yesterday's "Courier-Mail", H. A. Meredith. The shareholders are Building Societies Act (13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3637

Delicia Pty. Ltd. of 62 Dudley Street, It is quite obvious that South West Annerley, care of N. K. Meredith, and the Holdings is a subsidiary of Nursing Centres auditors are A. W. Fadden & O'Shea. This is of Australia, and the yearly financial accounts a lovely little rort. They received loans from have been consolidated. I contend that the the United Saving Permanent Building appointment of N. K. Meredith as auditor is Society of $134,998. They received a loan grossly improper, as he is recorded in the from the Great Australian Permanent Build­ Companies Office as a director and share­ ing Society of $102,000, making a total of holder of Nursing Centres of Australia. The $236,998. But this is where the rort comes Minister is not listening to me. I do not know in-they had a paid-up capital of 12 $1 what is the matter with him. He is talking to shares! That's not bad-to get loans the Treasurer. I want to speak to the butcher, totalling $236,998 on that paid-up capital. not the block. It must be obvious to the Minister that, when a group such as Nursing I turn now to South West Holdings Pty. Centres of Australia have been permitted Ltd. The registered office is again 62 Dudley to enjoy an unrestrained use of building Street, Annerley. The directors are D. P. society funds, the group would have an O'Shea, P. C. O'Shea and D. Watson. The unfair advantage (as I am sure the Treasurer shareholders are shown as D. P. O'Shea and would agree) in having to pay only building P. C. O'Shea. The auditor-! ask honourable society interest rates instead of bank or members to note how the auditors have finance company rates znd having funds interchanged-is Neville Keith Meredith of available when required. They have been 31 Glencairn Avenue, Indooroopilly. He getting away with murder for years. This shifted from Jindalee to Indooroopilly. He legislation, as I say, should put an end to sold his house out there, getting a good price their rorts and rackets. for it, and moved to Indooroopilly. They received loans from the United Savings The introduction of a Contingency Fund Permanent Building Society of $199,000- is long overdue. I hope it is policed properly. and they had the huge paid-up capital of I would like to see how it works, because at four $2 shares! the moment there is a lot of trouble in the building societies. The Treasurer is going Mr. Jensen: That's been going on for years. down as the greatest back-door socialist of all time. He is not a democratic socialist, Mr. K. J. HOOPER: It will not be going either. He is a totalitarian socialist. He is on now. These amendments will stop that. the devil incarnate as far as some of the As a matter of fact, these directors should building societies are concerned. go to gaol. The introduction of a Contingency Fund Gotha Pty. Ltd. aga;n is care of N. K. is certainly a step in the right direction and, Meredith of 27 Turbot Street, Brisbane. The as I have previously said, it is long overdue. directors are D. P. O'Shea, E. Marsden and Prior to this Bill, an iniquitous situation I. R. Douglas. The auditors are Marsden and existed in building societies in this State O'Shea. Honourable members may have whereby borrowers were charged large fees noted from the names I have read out that if they repaid their loans early. This new with different companies the directors and .Jegislation does appear, prima facie, to auditors have interchanged; one is a director correct the shocking anomaly that existed and the other is an auditor, and vice versa. under the previous legislation. They received loans from the Great Aus­ tralian Building Society of $103,037, yet they One of the larger building societies, too, had a paid-up capital of only 12 $1 shares. is not blameless in this regard. I refer to How well these three gentlemen have done Queensland Permanent. I have said before out of building societies! that Queensland Permanent has a few sins to atone for, and this is one of them. Some Mr. Speaker, two of the crooked com­ poor unfortunate people who came along to panies I have mentioned-Cadiz Pty. Ltd. pay off their loans early were charged three and South West Holdings-have identical months' interest before they could commute shareholders and directors and, by a strange their loans. The Queensland Permanent coincidence, also have the same registered would be hoping that all of its borrowers office as Annerley Nursing Homes. J. J. commuted their loans early so that it could O'Shea and Co., chartered accountants, are charge .them the additional three months' shown as their auditors. The auditor of interest. South West Holdings is shown as N. K. Meredith, 31 Glencairn Avenue, Indoor­ The Minister is also aware that some oopilly. building societies were operating on the edge of a financial precipice because they broke What a marvellous thing that would be. one of the cardinal principles of business­ If the honourable member for Kurilpa was they borrowed short and lent long. I know working for Waltons as accountant and was that the Treasurer agrees with me on this tickling the peter and then at the end of the matter. I do not think that the Minister year he was appointed as auditor, he would for Works and Housing understands, but be throwing up his hands with glee. This is the Treasurer does. what has happened in the instance of some of these building societies. I was using the They certainly need fixed capital to pro­ honourable member for Kurilpa only as an vide a buffer against adverse conditions. In example. recent years, when investors withdrew large 3638 Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

sums of money over a short period, it that the advertisements that have appeared became obvious that the majority of people had the approval of the registrar. I believe withdrawing this money invest in building that possibly that is so. On the other hand, societies for fairly short periods. loose wording, if I can use that term, will The reputable building societies should certainly be eliminated in the future. welcome this legislation. It will alleviate I want to deal with some aspects of what some of the problems that I have mentioned. this legislation will achieve, because I However, I suggest to the Minister that the believe it is very important that after this legislation could be further strengthened by legislation is passed the media, including making building societies offer fixed-term radio, should try to ensure that the people of deposits for three months, six months, nine Queensland understand that it is for their months or 12 months, with the money being protection and that there is no .Jonger need available thereafter on 30 days' notice. for some of the panic that arose when the The building societies would still be per­ five societies were suspended. I would hope mitted to offer their share-type investments that there will be an appreciation amongst on call. However, the Minister should insist investors in building societies that, when the that building societies clearly explain to the freedom is given to remove their funds if investing public the true nature of this type they so desire, the societies being taken over of investment. The restrictions have safe­ wil.J now have the substantial backing of the guarded them. State Government Insurance Office, and so As I said before, the Opposition thinks that there will be no need to panic or to drain this Bill is a step in the right direction. the funds of not only the suspended societies Contrary to what the Minister said the other being taken over but also other societies. night, I do not condemn the Bill; I support The Bill was introduced mainly to protect it. the assets of the five suspended societies and also to ensure that the doors of those Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ societies would be reopened so that we can Deputy Premier and Treasurer) (12.27 p.m.): get back to a situation where, having rescued I have listened to the remarks of the the societies and having provided funds, honourable member for Archerfield and anyone who has placed his or her money in appreciate that the Opposition realises that a society wiii receive that money in due this Bill is being introduced for one specific course. purpose-to ensure protection of the funds From time to time one hears that meetings of those persons who invested in building have been called by a number of society societies and have become shareholders in shareholders because they believe that per­ those societies. Because of that and some of the things that have happened, it has haps this or that should not have happened been necessary to introduce stringent legisla­ to the society in which they have invested tion to ensure that some of the past happen­ their funds, but I want to say here that a!I ings in the administration of building societies suspended societies have been proven by cannot be repeated. special audits to be in a deficit situation. However, the shortfalls in each society are As the honourable member said, the Bill to be picked up by the Contingency Fund, will not be successful unless it is properly and this Bill provides the basis upon which policed. During the introductory debate I that fund will be established and outlines gave an undertaking in th!s Chamber that how the contributions will be made. steps will be taken to provide the necessary The industry was accorded the oppor­ staff so that what we are now legislating for tunity of endeavouring to rescue itself. will certainly be put into effect. I emphasise There has been some comment in certain that, because the Bill relates principally to the five suspended societies and three others places to the effect that the entry of the that have problems concerning administration, State Government Insurance Office into this liquidation or deferral of payments for a field has placed some of the societies at some period in accordance with the small print disadvantage. When we ascertained exactly in the forms signed by people investing in what the position was, it was necessary that those particular societies. What we are some basis of funding be provided, or quite endeavouring to do is to ensure that in a number of people would lose a portion of future the protection will be there. their investment. So I held a conference with members of the board of the S.G.I.O. I also agree with what has been said by and indicated that the Government was look­ the honourable member for Archerfield on ing for ~ome basis of financing which would the possibility of there being a feeling that not only attract investors but also restore this legislation provides Government guaran­ confidence in the building society movement. tees. It does not; it sets up a Contingency Fund so that if problems arise there will Having worked out a scheme whereby the be adequate protection for the shareholders. societies could be funded by the State Government Insurance Office, whereby the In recent times I have spoken to the mortgages could be purchased and whereby registrar concerning the type of advertisement we could ensure that, having removed the that has been used in the past. On the radio mortgages, as it were, from each suspended this morning I listened to one member of society, we could then ,leave the shell-in a building society indicating to the announcer other words leave the loss behind-and Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3639

arrange for that to be picked up through the shareholders' funds and deposits. So there Contingency Fund. However, it would be will be a new society established and backed necessarv to have cash available so that this to the extent of $43,000,000, and it will operatio·i1 could be carried out, and the function in the usual way that a building Government laid down a pattern that it knew society functions. could be followed. There is nothing different in this from I then met the Association of Permanent what applies to one or two other insurance Building Societies and indicated that if it offices which have building societies associ­ could raise funds from any other source, ated with them. On that basis we are per­ I would be quite happy to see it carry out mitting the State Government Insurance the rescue operation instead of having the Office to do exactly what is done by private S.GJ.O. step in. It is a matter of some enterprise. We have always held with com­ regret to me that the industry was not able petition between the State Government to do that. It is true that it did put for­ Insurance Office, as an insurance office, and ward a couple of alternative proposals. How­ private enterprise insurance offices. Most ever, those alternative proposals involved the honourable members know that, although the lending of State Government Insurance Office State Government Insurance Office does not funds -on certain conditions to the societies pay income tax direct to the Commonwealth, concerned, and it must be realised that the it pays direct to the State Government the funds of the S.G.I.O. belong to the policy­ same amount as it would otherwise pay to holders and must be under the control of the Commonwealth as tax. So we are all on that office. Therefore, I indicated to the an equal footing. association that not under any circumstances would I be a party to the funds of the Mr. Chinchen: Not on workers' compen­ S.G.I.O. being lent to an outside board of sation though. directors, as it were, without some basis of major security. Sir GORDON CHALK: The State Govern­ ment Insurance Office compensation charges Because of that, the assocratwn was given compare favourably with those levied in any a further 24 hours in which to endeavour other State in Australia. to solicit the necessary funds. Unfortunately, it eventually had to come forward and say Mr. Chinchen: It doesn't pay tax on the that it could not raise the money other than profit on workers' compensation. with the involvement of S.G.I.O. funds. When that became evident to the Government, it Sir GORDON CHALK: I have not yet then proceeded, through the appointment of succeeded in making a profit through the administrators to the various societies that State Government Insurance Office on had been suspended, to take appropriate steps workers' compensation. The point of the to ensure that sufficient funds will be avail­ matter is that it has been necessary to able tomorrow to meet any urgent cases, increase premiums to try to keep ahead of on conditions that have been laid down. the claims and demands. What the hon­ As I said earlier, I hope that those who ourable member does not understand is that a do not need funds urgently will not panic; case might not be completed for two years ultimately they will be associated with a or so. Therefore it is necessary to have new society that will have substantial back­ reserves and, at the same time, there has ing from the State Government Insurance to be protection because very often the Office and so their funds will be extremely value of the damages awarded two years secure. later is entirely different from the basis on which the premiums were initially levied Having reached that point, it became neces­ when there was a different wage structure. sary for the Government to decide on what basis the new society would be established. Mr. Casey: It should not make a profit on I indicate to honourable members now that workers' compensation. the new society will be known as the S.G.I.O. Permanent Building Society, and it will be Sir GORDON CHALK: Nobody wants to formed to take over the deposits and the make a profit on it, but sufficient funds have loans of the five suspended societies. The to be provided for claims that are met. The new society, the total assets and liabilities honourable member who is interjecting does of which will be of the order of $43,000,000 not understand the situation. He does not at its commencement, will have, as I have realise that if the Whitlam Government had indicated already, the financial backing of proceeded with the type of legislation it the State Government Insurance Office to proposed, we would have had to discontinue the full extent of the society's shareholders' that type of operation, but we would have had funds and deposits in the initial period. to provide tremendous sums to meet cases that had not been settled. Provision is being made in the rules of the society that the new society may, at its There are other matters I should like to discretion, reduce the total standby facility deal with now, but I know, Mr. Deputy being provided by the S.G.I.O. However, at Speaker, that you propose to suspend the all times the S.G.I.O. standby will be not sitting at 12.45 p.m. I am wondering whether less than 25 per cent of the new society's it would be possible to adjourn now, which 3640 Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

would give me an opportunity to develop world. The next member is Mr. Brian other phases without interruption when we McCafferty, a citizen who has had consider­ resume. able experience and is a solicitor attached to Messrs Morris, Fletcher and Cross. He [Sitting suspended from 12.44 to 2.15 p.m.] is very well known and will be able to admin­ ister the affairs of the society. Another is Sir GORDON CHALK: Prior to lunch Mr. Ken Allison, who is well known through­ I endeavoured to do two things. Firstly, out Queensland as a man of high integrity. I tried to get a message across to the people At the present time he is associated with the of Queensland and instil into their minds the Tasman society. Mr. J. Pidgeon, who was fact of security within the building society chairman of the Family Permanent Society, movement. I hope .that out of the debate will also be on the board. Finally, because that has taken place we will get back to a of the association of the trade union move­ feeling of security of investment within the ment and the trade unions in this matter, Mr. building society movement. If we can do Jack Egerton will be the other member of that we will have a return of some of the the board. They are men of integrity who funds that have been taken out of the will be able to administer this new society liquidity of the societies and, when those and ensure that we return to a sound basis funds are returned, they can be put into of administration and control of the funds the production of homes for the people. of the people. A general manager and sec­ Secondly, I indicated the offers that have retary of the society will be appointed. Most been made to the industry. While some honourable members know that applications people think that the entry of the S.G.I.O. for these positions have been called. into this particular type of operation is in some way undesirable, it is necessary if we The S.G.I.O. Permanent Building Society are to provide funds and so protect every will use the premises, facilities and staff of person involved in ·the problems confronting the five suspend::d societies to the greatest the societies. extent possible. However, it is true that be­ cause of amalgamation there will be certain The only source from which they could overlapping and duplication which will have become available and which is accessible to to be eliminated as quickly as possible to me is the S.G.I.O. The industry itself had ensure maximum efficiency. There will be ex­ an opportunity to raise these funds from any tensive procedures to be gone through, and other source. It had to admit that that was it is expected that it will take until early next not possible. If that was not possible, it month before the doors of the new society are was a question either of following the pro­ open for full business. So that the public will cedure that we are adopting or of allowing be aware of the situation, I have indicated the people to lose their investments. I think that the dead-line is being set for 12 May. the latter is the last thing that any honour­ able member in this Chamber desires. In the meantime, and as from tomorrow, the State Government Insurance Office has I outlined the way in which I was able to made arrangements to provide funds so that ensure that the S.G.I.O. would provide the a depositor with the suspended societies necessary funds. I indicated that it would needing emergency funds can secure up to be called the State Government Insurance one-quarter of his balance but not exceeding Office Permanent Building Society. It will $500 to keep him going until the new society be in no way different from the National is in full swing. As I indicated, that will be Mutual Building Society, which is run by an not later than 12 May. Any time between insurance company, or certain other building tomorrow and 12 May a depositor in one of societies that are financed by other financial the suspended societies need simply present institutions. his passbook and a withdrawal form at the Mr. K. J. Hooper: It provides a certain usual branch at which he has been operating guarantee. and he will receive funds on the basis I have just outlined. However, as I said, it would Sir GORDON CHALK: And we are pro­ assist the operation greatly if deposi·tors not viding a guarantee for it. in urgent need did not exercise the right to make an emergency withdrawal. Their money I indicated that it would be necessary for is there if they want it. With the operations the registrar to set up a board. The board of the new society backed by the S.G.I.O. will have on it representatives of those com­ 1here is no doubt about its security. Further­ panies that have been taken over and are more the full 9t per cent interest is being desirous of continuing some basis of adminis­ earn~d by their funds now. Depositors will tration and representation. It will have be able to operate normally again in a few on it Mr. B. E. Riding, the chairman of the weeks, as soon as it is humanly possible to S.G.I.O. board. I have been able to acquire get the new society ready. I believe that this the services of a man who has been associa­ action will benefit the whole industry. It ted with building societies from a financial will not only back up those who have run viewpoint for many years. I refer to Mr. into problems but it will also, I believe, instil B. Vimpani who is a retired manager for confidence in the people, and what is needed Queensland, Commercial Bank of Australia. more than anything else at the present time He has also had experience in the financial is confidence in the buildi11g society indu:>try. Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3641

The industry generally is having liquidity same Colin Sinclair, a director of the Aus­ problems, part of which was brought about tralian Co-operative Development Society, by the new 10.5 per cent Australian Savings who was reported on by the liquidators in Bonds, but these are being overcome, and "The Courier-Mail" on Saturday last. They with something like $43,000,000 to reported that loans totalling about $400,000 $45,000,000 in S.G.I.O. money coming into had been made in instances of utter reckless­ the building society industry liquidity will no ness. That report was presented to 500 longer be a problem. The new Act provides creditors in the City Hall. They estimated strict rules to ensure continued viability and that the deficiency is $1,200,000 and that good mac'lagement. anv dividend will be fractional. The liq.uidators' report also said- The substitution of this new building society for the five smaller societies can do only "Those who are responsible for this good for the industry as a whole. I believe it appalling state of affairs must be brought will stabilise and ~trengthen the industry and to account under the law." provide that added competition so essential Let us see who are the men with whom Mr. to our whole free-enterprise system. So that Sinclair is associated. I shall take first there will be no misconception in the minds of the man Muller. He was committed for trial the public I want to outline what we propose for conspiracy to defraud in New South to do and what we have done. We have done \Vales, and it took the Government of New it on the basis of a rescue operation. We have South Wales three years to unravel the case. done it because I believe it is the only method I might also mention a man by the name of by which it is possible to ensure that Knudsen. good Queenslanders-people who in all good faith have invested their money in build­ Colin Sinclair is a director of the Aus­ ing societies-will be assured that they will tralian Permanent Building Society, which is have their money returned to them. now in the hands of the liquidators. The There are two other points I wish to raise, liquidators have advised that Sinclair and/or one of them in connection wilh the Australian his service company received unlawful Permanent Building Society, which at present advances from that building society to the is in the hands of a liquidator. The Govern­ extent of about $6,000. ment has given an assurance that those people He is the same Colin Sinclair who told who are involved as shareholders will not two deputy registrars of co-operative societies lose, but it is necessary for the liquidators to that the Australian Permanent Building go through the process of liquidation. and Society was viable and that he would certify because of that it could be some six months to all securities in the balance sheet. Twenty­ or more before the final payout will be able four hours later the society was placed into to be made to those people. liquidation, and the reports indicate a short­ There is also one other point in relation age of up to $800,000 in the society which to the Great Australian Permanent Building had a capital of only $3,000,000. Society. Here the society moved in early He is the same Colin Sinclair who was and indicated that three months call must originally dismissed from the office of direc­ be given on money. The Government cannot tor of Tasman Building Society because he depart from the rules of that particular had obtained a loan from Tasman Building society, but again I indicate that the position Society while a director but did not vacate wil! be tidied up and those people who have his office as required by section 22F (1) (i) funds invested in that society will receive of the Building Societies Act, and it was protection similar to that being given in the only the action of his eo-directors that case of the five suspended societies. forced him to vacate the office some con­ During the recess for lunch, the Leader siderable time afterwards. He is the same of the Opposition approached me and asked Colin Sinclair who then, by personal can­ whether something could be done for persons vass, secured enough proxy votes to tip out who have funds in either of those two the Tasman board and have himself societies and who are in desperate need. I re-elected. He is the same Colin Sinclair indicated to him that, as far as I can see, who has, as I said, been smiling out of the rules of the societies prevent any pay­ television screens during the recent periods outs at the present moment. However, I of crisis and indicating that the Government will ask my officers to investigate the has been doing something wrong. I listened position. to him on the night that I had to take the action which I did not want to take. He I believe that the action taken bv the made the statement that Tasman had Government is in the best interests of the $2,000,000 in the bank and should not have community as a whole. been suspended. What he did not say was Finally, I wish to say a word or two about that he had $1,400,000 worth of cheques a Mr. Sinclair-a gentleman who has that had not been presented to the bank appeared on the television screen in the and that, if it had been called upon to pay, drawing rooms of many people. After the deficiency would have been $2,800,000. working very many hours, I sat in my lounge He is the gentleman who has endeavoured and saw and heard that particular gentle­ to instil into the minds of some of the man make certain statements to the people people in Queensland that the Government of Queensland. That Mr. Sinclair is the is not doing the right thing. The fact of the 3642 Building Societies Act (13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

matter is that he is making these statements indicates that honourable members on both in an endeavour to indicate that the society sides of the Chamber have an interest in is stable. the future of our people and an interest in the provision of homes for them. I hope We have looked very carefully at the that the interest rate of 9t per cent will reports furnished to us by the various attract money back to the building societies. auditors. The Australian Permanent Build­ ing Society has provided funds for a com­ I should not want anyone to believe that pany known as Ebbs Pty. Ltd., which is the S.G.I.O. is keen to hog the market. I say totally owned by the Australian Co-operative here and now that, if money is being taken Development Society. The money that was out of the other societies and deposited lent to that company by the Australian Per­ with the S.G.I.O. society, I will limit the manent Building Society was made available amount of money that the S.G.I.O. society for the purchase of land, but as the land can take. It is not my desire to see a great was sold off, where did the money go? Mr transfer of funds from the other societies to Sinclair was associated with all three com­ the S.G .I.O. society. panies. The money did not go back to the We are trying to carry out a rescue Australian Permanent Building Society; it operation. We have at our disposal the went to the Australian Co-operative Develop­ means to limit the intake of funds to ensure ment Society. Where it went then one is that private enterprise and the S.G.I.O. can left to guess. I have had up to 100 letters work hand in hand for the advancement and from people in the South who have been betterment of the societies and the building hoodwin~ed by Sinclair and Knudsen, and society movement as well as for the benefit of others With whom he has been associated. the people. Yet that gentleman-and I use the word with some doubt-is prepared to go before Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the Oppo­ t~e people of Queensland and present a sition) (2.36 p.m.): As our spokesman on P_Ictu~e of stability as being the true housing has said, the Opposition welcomes situation regarding that particular com­ this Bill. We believe it will do a lot to pany. Anyone can read the statements relieve many members of the community that appeared in "The Courier-Mail" of who have had their money threatened, in Saturday, 10 April, which indicate that loans some ways by the lack of action on the part by societies ~ere reckless. The same gentle­ of the Government. In the past it has failed m_an_ has. wntten a letter seeking protection to control the directors of certain societies withm _this <;=ham~er. Each of the points he as well as the rules of some societies. The ha~ . rarsed IS smde and with the idea of Deputy Premier and Treasurer has just gammg protection in this Chamber. I have launched a clear and concise attack on one here a letter written by a lady in New South Wales, which is a clear indication of the of the directors of one of these building manner in which that gentleman and those societies. One wonders how he was able associated with him have operated in this to operate for so long and to wriggle through State. our laws and be allowed to get away with this sort of thing. I emphasise that what we have done in trying to protect the industry and the build­ Sir Gordon Chalk: It took New South ing societies has been done with one sincere Wales three years to catch up with him. desire, that is, to ensure that those people who were unfortunate enough to become Mr. BURNS: I wonder why, when reports involved in some of these difficult operations submitted by the Queensland Branch of the would have protection. All I hope is that Australian Society of Accountants and other they will learn by what we would probably bodies have suggested that our rules have not have to describe as their mistakes or loose­ been tight enough, our Companies Office ness in not realising just what the position has not had sufficient staff and that we have was. allowed this situation to develop. My purpose in rising was to outline first First up I say thank you to the Govern­ ment members, to the Deputy Premier and ~f all the basis on which the rescue opera­ tiOn has been brought about. I believe that Treasurer and to the Minister for Works and it will achieve everything that the Govern­ Housing, for the work they have done on ment has said. I believe that as from behalf of those people who, a few weeks tomorrow we will return to stability and ago, were led to believe that their life savings confidence in the building society movement had been lost. I appreciate the action taken generally: This has not been a business of by the Government, and I am sure that those pleasure to my colleague the Minister for people do likewise. But might I suggest Works and Housing, members of my Cabinet to the Government that, when it speaks about or me. Many hours have been spent on it societies outside of this Chamber, it should by top officers of the Treasury Department talk not about the five societies or a group of and the Office of the Commissioner for societies but about individual societies by Corporate Affairs, right down to typists and name. If this is not done, the people become clerks. We have demonstrated that we can utterly confused. p:ovide a rescue operation. If we can pro­ I attended a meeting last night and one VIde that rescue operation, including the last Friday where the report on Mr. Sinclair setting up of a Contingency Fund, that and his Co-operative Development Society Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3643

was tabled at the City Hall. Some people who Bowkett societies. The Treasurer in his attended the meeting on Friday quite rightly introductory speech referred to a period of thought it concerned the operations of the 10 years. He also said- Co-operative Development Society; others "It will be hived off into one society. thought it dealt with building societies. So it An administrator will be appointed and a was with last night's meeting. People get the new entity administered until the con­ five suspended building societies confused clusion of, say, the 10 years involved." with the eight or the seven. The position Sir Gordon Chalk: It can go up to 10 must be made clear to them. years. Two or three aspects still cause concern. As I understand it, people who have money Mr. BURNS: I am an investor in a Bowkett invested in the five suspended societies will be society. Last night, for the first time, I had able to make partial withdrawals tomorrow, a clear explanation of exactly how it works. and by 12 May the societies will be able to People were sold Bowketts on these terms- trade in the normal way. I accept the 1. Save at a specific rate each month Treasurer's assurance that those people whose for (1) 10 years or (2) up to 25 years. money has been frozen in those five building This entitles the member to-- societies will be paid interest on their deposits (A) take part in a monthly ballot for for the intervening period. So in reality they an interest-free loan applicable to their have not lost anything. I agree that the new plan or a cash equivalent. building society that is to be created by the (B) at 10 years all savings may be S.G.I.O. will be a first-class building society. withdrawn in full together with profits. All entitlements then cease. Sir Gordon Chalk: Might I make one point? We want to be helpful to one another (C) continue after 10 years and with­ in this. Where a building society has not drawn at any time thereafter at the made a profit, there is doubt whether under conditions in (B). the rules the people can be paid interest. (D) continue until 25 years have elapsed and receive- Mr. BURNS: In such a case apparently 1. all savings in full with profits. some doubt exists about the payment of 2. an interest free loan or cash interest. Where a society has made a profit, equivalent as in (A). it will pay interest; if not, that may not be so. People want to know if those conditions will A lot of people are involved in the Aus­ still apply? I do not want the Treasurer to tralian Building Society, the Great Australian answer me now; that will take up my time. Building Society and the City Savings Build­ Maybe the Minister for Works and Housing ing Society, and they want to know when can answer my question in his reply. Inves­ they will be able to withdraw their money. tors want to know, now that they are going They, too, have suffered hardship. They into the new Bowkett society, whether all know that the Contingency Fund will pro­ those conditions will prevail or whether there vide the funds for them, but on the Treas­ will be some watering down of the 25 years. urer's statement it might be six months before Sir Gordon Chalk: They are only taking the Contingency Fund has enough money in the Bowketts that are in there at the moment it and before the liquidators submit their and putting them into the one pool and reports. 1Might I suggest to the Government finishing them off. that these people be given some money in the meantime to pay their bills? They will Mr. BURNS: Do they gain all the need money to pay income tax assessments, privileges that they were promised originally? rates, rent, insurance and even their grocery Sir Gordon Chalk: The Bowketts will con­ bills. I know of some investors who are tinue as is. If there is a loss in the Bowketts, receiving assistance from the Society of St. well, it is their's. Vincent de Paul. They are told daily that eventually they will receive dollar for dollar Mr. BURNS: Having made those submis­ what they invested. sions and trying to clear up a few matters raised with me by some of my electors and I have been told that last Friday staff of other people involved in societies, might I say the Tasman Building Society were told that that this Bill marks the end of attacks on they were to be sacked. Some of them have the Labor Party for its socialist policies. had no assurance at all about long service When I read clause 38 (c) and some of the leave and sick leave entitlements. I rang the other clauses, I thought that I might put this office of the Minister for Works and Housing Bill in a glossy cover and take it around yesterday about this and I thank him for Queensland with the title, "Socialism at making a statement on TV. However, I Work"-"produced by Joh Bjelke-Petersen, think we should once again make it very Sir Gordon Chalk and Norm Lee." No longer clear to these people that they will not will Government members be able to criticise become casualties of the mismanagement of socialism. Last year Government members some societies and the problems that have charged the Labor Party under Gough been created. Whitlam with socialist taint and with aiming Most of the questions asked last night at at attacking businesses and taking them over. the public meeting I attended concerned the When I read that clause I realised that, 3644 Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

con:pared with the authors of this legislation, he is in a lot of trouble with the Housing Wh1tlam was a weakie. He was a socialist Commission; that he wants more money. piker compared with the three legislative The Government is talking about sacking musketeers who pose in this Parliament as people in the Works Department. Why could the champions of private enterprise. we not have taken that $20,000,000 and put I ask Government members to study clause it into the co-operative housing societies 38 (c) titled "Transfer of Engagements or through the Housing Commission or put it Property by Direction of Registrar". That is straight into the Housing Commission itself? not even democratic socialism: that is stand­ That would have guaranteed the employment over socialism. It gives an open licence to of the day-labour staff. From what I see of Cabinet, through the Housing Minister and the prices quoted in the Housing Com­ the Registrar, to nationalise building societies mission annual report, Housing Commission whether they like it or not. Without con­ homes are produced more cheaply and in sultation to determine their attitudes the many cases at much better value than many societies are being subjected rigidly t~ the of the houses built by operators who will whims and controls of the Liberal-National have to borrow through the Commonwealth Party Big Brothers. They can be forced to Bank and then build their spec homes and amalgamate. sell to the community in general. I believe it would have been better for that Government members should no longer $20,000,000 to go straight to the Housing run around the State charging Labor with Commission instead of to the Commonwealth interfering with free enterprise and competi­ tion. I ask the Premier not to base his next Bank. campaign on an assault on the socialist This legislation could make societies inop­ brothers in Canberra. An examination of erable. Building societies will be administered clause 38 (c) discloses who the real socialist by laws that can be used to dem:1nd their brothers are. They sit on the Government destruction. The Government can decide benches in this House today. They are whether we have one society, two societies, implementing a socialist scheme to take over three societies or 103 societies. !t can a group of building societies and they are dictate whether they amalgamate, when they implementing a clause which says that the amalgamate and with whom they amalagamte. registrar can tell the societies to amalgamate, Of course it is socialism-and it is not that the registrar can tell them to give even thinly disguised socialism. property over. The registrar can direct them I wish to talk about the directors, too. completely on these matters. The old story Remarks have been made about Mr. Sinclair. about the socialist tigers being on the Left Last Friday I went to the City Hall to wing of the Labor Party is dead and gone; listen to a report by the liquidator~ of the the socialist tigers are now sitting in the Australian Co-operative Development Society. Liberal and National Parties in this House. If honourable members have never been to a meeting at which creditors and shareholders Under these provisions societies' property are called together in a liquidation, they and financial engagements can be confiscated should go along to one. It is an education. or severed without reason. They can be trans­ will bring members down to what the ferred against the wishes of the directors or It the shareholders. Nothing could be more world is all about outside this Chamber. will show how our legislation is imple­ totalitarian, nothing more dictatorial! It mented. This year, the Liberal-National Country The liquidator stood up and read out to the Parties, by offering a 10.5 per cent bond meeting a report that I have here. Half rate-I don't care what honourable members of thme present did not have an opportunity tried to tell me the other day about it­ to follow it, as they were not given a copy. fabricated a crippling crisis. Mr. Lynch caused However, it was very clear right through the run on the societies; he was responsible that what the Treasurer said today about for the problem. It was an emotional, directors in that particular society is correct. frightening crisis in the building societies. I do not believe that the clause in this Bill Last night on T.V., I saw a building industry relating to directors is strong enough. especi­ man named Kelly, who, in very clear words, ally after hearing what went on in the made it plain that he believed that not only society about which I am speaking. the Federal Government but also the State For example, they were lending to them­ Government were to blame for many of the selves on securities of a third bill of mort­ troubles. gage over a house. One such bill was for Societies that were enjoying a healthy $63,795. $16,000 was lent for a boat and growth rate at the end of last year have $45,000 on properties-- been brought to the brink of collapse and Mr. Casey: You wouldn't get that much trapped in a liquidity squeeze that inhibits on a third mortgage on Parliament House. their lending money for home-building, in most cases, before September. Mr. BURNS: No! But on a third mortgage While I am on that matter, let me say that on an ordinary suburban house. they got I think we made a mistake in giving $63,795. $20,000,000 to the Commonwealth Bank for What the Treasurer said was quite correct. housing. I have heard the Minister for They bought a block of land for $20,000, Housing on a number of occasions say that on which they put $1,000 down. I am not Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3645

certain that even the man who owned the The liquidators also said- block of land got a fair deal out of it. "The society granted a mortgage in Eventually, after passing from one company favour of Australian Permanent Build­ to another, that was sold for $400,000. The ing Society to secure an amount of money came from the public, but the profit $150,000 which was advanced by the was not passed on. Building Society to enable the Society to The liquidators made several points. They buy the land. Under that mortgage a said that a substantial amount of the over­ further $350,000 was advanced allegedly head expenses in the operation of the Aus­ to the Society by Australian Permanent tralian Permanent Building Society and Building Society. However, this amount Bowkett was borne by this society in unlawful of $350,000 in effect represented losses and improper circumstances. incurred by Australian Permanent Building Society which were lumbered on the Sir Gordon Chalk: That is what's hap­ Society and in view of the fact that this pening. They are transferring-- sum was secured by the mortgage it did not become necessary for Australian Per­ Mr. BURNS: I do not think the Govern­ manent Building Society to publish the ment has covered it in the clause relating to loss represented by the amount so directors. secured." Sir Gordon Chalk: I don't think we have. In other words, the A.P.B.S. figures that were being shown to the public were crook. Mr. BURNS: It has to be covered. The They were saying that the money was lent liquidators said- to them by another society. The other society "The only explanation that could be did not have any money or security on the offered for this is that those who control funds. There was a lot of transferring from the Australian Permanent Building Society one company to another. The directors that were interested in producing a profitable the Treasury people were talking about, trading situation in the building society at including Colin Sinclair, have been men­ the expense of this society." tioned by the honourable member for They are talking there about the Australian Archerfield in this Chamber for the past 12 Co-operative Development Society. They con­ months. tinue- It is a fact of life that during that period "In the opinion of the liquidators it is the directors of one or two building societies contrary to the public interest ,that there have had a field day with the ordinary little should be any common directorate or other worker who "banked" his money in their par­ link through one or more of these societies ticular building society and was conned by a or building societies which in effect may good salesman. Some of the salesmen have allow the affairs of one body to be manipu­ quite a hide. Last Friday, one popped up and lated for the benefit or detriment of issued the first challenge at the City Hall. He another." was one of their ex-salesmen and he asked the chairman what right I had to be there. Might I make this point? In the Morningside Luckily T had a proxy covering a dollar office of the permanent building society in share that these very salesmen had been my electorate a gentleman was standing at selling. the counter every day when the poor old pensioners came there to deposit their money, The question of interest rates worries me. saying to them, "Look, don't take St per In this case the Government has been less cent. I can get you 12! per cent." He never than fair to the people who have been once suggested that it was not in the perman­ borrowing. I know that the first proposal of ent building society. He said all the time that the Treasurer was that we would reduce the it was on fixed deposit. One gentleman who interest payable to the people who were was at the meeting last Sunday-he is in lending money. The people who are lending hospital now-had left the money on fixed the money and obt,aining the security from deposit for his eight year old son. He was this new Contingency Fund are the ones told, "If you put it in for 15 years, you will who should be paying. I do not know get 15 per cent interest and we will give you that the man at the other end who bought fixed deposit", a term used by banks, the his home five years ago, 10 years ago, or implication being-- even 12 years ago should be having to pay; the problem is not of his making at all; but Mr. Jones: It was fixed, all right. he is going to pay an extra three-quarters Mr. BURNS: Well and truly fixed. "Fixed" of 1 per cent. Whether he likes it or not was the operative word. The point is that he will pay that out of his pocket. He has these offices acted as agents in this way. Some been forced to pay for Mr. Sinclair's opera­ societies are now acting as travel agents. I tions or the operations of the two or three must admit that travel societies seem all right, societies that are in the hands of liquidators but might I suggest that the idea of a building as against the others. I do not believe that society acting for any other group in any other he should have to pay. way only puts the imprimatur of a build­ Last year before the 13 December Federal ing society on that operation, as it did with election, the National and Liberal Parties this Co-operative Development Society. promised reductions in home interest rates. 3646 Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

Sir Gordon Chalk: We did. The National-Liberal parties have inspired instability and hardship for thousands of Mr. BURNS: Yes, of course they did. Queenslanders. They have increased depres· In the four months since that election, sion in a high-employment industry that is those rates have risen twice and both rises already gripped by rescession. So Queens­ have been a direct result of the policies of land couples have twice this year been forced the very same political parties that cynically to pay more to rescue building societies from guaranteed reductions. Government-conceived crises. Now the same dinner-suit socialists are trying through this Sir Gordon Chalk: I could not control the legislation to nationalise the very industry 10.5 per cent Australian bond issue. they have been so intent on destroying. In addition, the Fraser Liberal-National Mr. BURNS: It was done by a member Country parties in Canberra have in the past of the Treasurer's party. I could not control fortnight removed the right of Queenslanders, Mr. Whitlam but the Treasurer hung him after the first five years, to claim interest around my neck day after day in this Parlia­ payments on mortgages as taxation deduc­ ment. I am hanging Mr. Lynch around his. tions. So we are going to tighten the noose Mr. Lynch created this and the Treasurer around the neck of the worker paying off has no control over his own party. his home. The effects of this action will be felt over a lingering, lasting period because . Sir Gordon Chalk: I made a public protest JUSt the same. most of the homes today, as we indicated when the interest rates went up, will be paid off over a longer period. So the Liberal­ Mr. BURNS: I made a public protest in National Country Parties in Canberra have my day, too, but that did not stop the said, "Well, for five years we will give Treasurer getting up on the stump during you a taxation deduction and for the the last election and it will not stop me in next 25 years you can pay the full tax." the Clayfield by-election from reminding the That is 'a product of some of the policies people of the promises made by the Premier that were promised to us. The Liberal­ and Treasurer in December. National Parties' philosophy today on As a result of the rises in interest rates home-ownership, home purchase or home­ a c?uple with a $15,000 loan from a building planning is higher taxes, higher interest rates, society last December must today either Government control (but not Government repay an extra $150 a year in interest or guarantee) and fewer homes, fiats and home extend the term of their loan. In 90 years units. the laws to protect the shareholders of societies have been amended only 11 times One of the things that came out of last (including the changes now before us) but in Friday's meeting, and one of the things I the past five years alone the interest rates must applaud the Treasurer for saying in his have been varied 10 times by the present introductory remarks, was the idea of appoint­ ~overnment. They have, in that period, ing a further six inspectors. I do not know mer eased from 7 to 11 i per cent. A couple whether the Treasurer has a copy of the who entered a $15,000 loan in April 1971 report on the Australian Co-operative Devel­ now find themselves repaying an extra $713 opment Society, but it is very clear from a year-almost $14 a week. reading through it that these people were Throughout this five-year period of uncer­ able to manipulate the situation willy-nilly. tainty, inconsistency and fluctuation, the As the Treasurer said, Sinclair, in reply only administering body over interest rates to a question as to whether both societies has been the National-Liberal Parties in this were solvent, was able to say that they were. State. They have approved every rise and In this context, "both societies" meant the must accept the guilt for the higher repay­ Australian Permanent Building Society and ments and financial discomforts suffered by the Australian Co-operative Development home buyers. This continual variation of interest rates affects not only those buying a Society. home and those planning to buy a home but Sir Gordon Chalk: He got one liquidator also those living in rental accommodation. kicked out, pinched the books and then got Last night, on the television programme another liquidator appointed. "This Day Tonight", during the segment on rental accommodation, people were told that Mr. BURNS: That's right. Again, it ca1Is their rents will go up as a result of this. for inquiry how on Friday night a judge could The $20,000,000 from the Commonwealth place the society into a liquidator's hands Bank would have been better in the hands and then on the Sunday afternoon another of the Queensland Housing Commission. judge could take that society out of the This should have happened instead of the liquidator's hands. Between then and the next money going back into the Commonwealth week the liquidator said that books were lost Bank with the resultant defay in lending. It and records were changed, and, surprisingly is an unavoidable fact that, as home purchase enough, it then went back into liquidation costs are inflated by Government policy, then again and a11 these people found that they rentals of flats, home units and homes must had lost their money. Now, there has to be spiral as well. something wrong with our law or there has Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3647

to be something wrong with the way we As I said at the beginning, the Opposition operate it if people can manipulate our laws welcomes the Bill because it will help a lot like that. of little people to get their money back. As far as I can see, it will provide for the Can honourable members imagine the building industry of this State a secure and feelings of the people sitting in the City stable building society industry, and that is Hall last Friday morning when this man needed if there is to be a strong building stood up and read these things out coldly industry and if people are to get homes. It and dispassionately? He said, "Yes, the is needed also if people are to invest judge on Friday did issue control to the in the industry, because they must believe liquidators. We spent all day Saturday that their money is sufficiently secure that getting all the books out and on Sunday there is a strong probability that it will come afternoon another judge said, 'You hand back to them, that they are not simply pouring those books back' and we handed them it into a bottomless pit, as the liquidator back by the Monday, and a week or 12 said in the case in question. days later when we got the books they had been changed and some of them were Although the Opposition welcomes the m1ssmg. We have to report to you that Bill, it believes that there is a need to they are $1,700,000 in debt and we possibly strengthen a couple of clauses in it. vVe have $500,000 in assets. We are not too have no objection to what has been done in this latest bid to repair the damage, and sure about that because $400,000 of that is in those people who, from tomorrow on, will be doubt and you might have only $100,000 receiving money have to say, "Thank you in assets." very much" to the Parliament as a whole-­ I asked him, "How much will battlers get in not just to the Government, but to the the dollar on the money that has been Opposition and everyone else who has tried invested?" He said, "It will be fractional." to participate to ensure that people get their When I said, "Would it be 10 cents in the money back. I think that some move ought dollar?" he nodded. He did not nod his head to be made to assist those people with small "Yes"; he nodded his head the other way sums of money tied up in G.A.P., A.P.B.S. and said, "It will be fractional." I am not and City Savings Building Societies who are sure what he meant by "fractional"; but I worried about liquidity problems. If we protect think those people may receive one cent in the them and guarantee security for investors, dollar. He might have meant a fraction of perhaps action can be taken straight away a cent in the dollar now that I come to to build up enthusiasm, put a spark back think about it. into the home-building industry and give the people of this State who want to buy a home But the point is that people want to know the opportunity to do so. how, under the laws that we administer, these things can happen-how money can dis­ Mr. CHINCHEN (Mt. Gravatt) (3.2 p.m.): appear in that way, how books can disappear It was not my intention to enter the debate, and how people can lend money from one but when the Treasurer said, after I made company to the other, backwards and for­ an interjection, that I did not know what wards, without anything being done about I was talking about, I thought I should it. It comes back to the need for a com­ explain the situation as I see it. pany fraud squad, it comes back to the need The Treasurer said-and rightly se--that for a team of auditors and inspectors to the S.G.I.O., which he was building up at carry out spot checks, because this liquidator that time, did not pay tax but allowed an said that in his opinion at no time since the equivalent amount of money to go to Con­ society started was it ever viable or solvent. solidated Revenue. That is correct. By interjection, I said, "But this does not apply Dr. Lockwood: That's what I said about to workers' compensation." Then there was Capricornia, the same set-up. a strange sort of performance in which I was personally attacked and told I did not Mr. BURNS: The same thing. We need a know what I was speaking about. Then an company fraud squad-a team of people who attempt was made to say, "Well, of course, can go into these areas. It is not good they have contingent liabilities and these enough when people like the honourable have to be looked after." Rightly so! Every member for Archerfield raise questions in the insurance company has contingent liabilities; Parliament for us to accept an answer with­ every company has contingent liabilities. out really checking it out. As we go along, To prove the point that I was making, we find that some of the things we were I should like to quote from the 1976 worried about six months ago had been hap­ Separate Report of the Auditor-General upon pening for up to two years before, that the Accounts of the State Government Insur­ people were being robbed and that people ance Office (Queensland) for the financial were passing money backwards and forwards year 1974-75. Under the heading "Taxation" without any trouble and that the people who it says- have been named in the debate were named "The Office is exempt from taxation last Saturday as having lent each other under the Income Tax Assessment Act $16,000 for a boat and $63,000 on a third 1936-1975 (Commonwealth) but payments, mortgage on their home. It was going on being the equivalent of income tax, are and on. made annually from the Life Assurance 3648 Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

Fund and the General Insurance Fund to buy homes. Delegates from America, West the State Treasury for the credit of Con­ Germany, South American countries and solidated Revenue Fund. No contribution elsewhere all told the same story. is made from the Workers' Compensation I am inclined to think that in this State Fund." we have got into the problem of a little That is very clearly stated, and that is all I bit of over-control. There are two forms of said. My words were that it does not apply control: administrative control and operating to the Workers' Compensation Fund. control. I agree that there must be tight Mr. .Jensen: The Treasurer said you did administrative control; that is essential. Here not know what you were talking about. we have made the problem by not having enough control at the administrative level. Mr. CHINCHEN: That is right, and I am In the operating area I think we have created quoting from the report to show that what hardship, particularly with increased costs in I said was accurate. recent years. Perhaps that has forced some On page 5 of the same report, under the of the organisations to move into areas heading "Workers' Compensation Fund", it where they should not have moved. The says- pressure has been there for them to survive, "The net surplus of $10,445,648 for the and therefore they have adopted these wrong year was distributed by a transfer of attitudes. $7,449,464 to the Workers' Compensation I think we are unique in that we have Bonus Distribution Account . . ." held rates at the bottom and top ends, and There is a net surplus. In any other have not allowed the societies free rein. organisation that would be considered a They have to attract money and they have profit. Honourable members are aware to lend it out. When they are operating in that contingency funds must be available to a competitive field, they cannot charge too take care of contingent liabilities. The point high a rate or it will not be accepted. After is that a profit was made on workers' com­ all there are banks, insurance companies and pensation, and that was the only point I rival building societies. We have learnt that was making-- story from the other States, where building societies operate satisfactorily. No other State Sir Gordon Chalk: Don't walk in any has encountered the situation in which we further. find ourselves. Mr. CHINCHEN: The honourable gentle­ Another thing that worries me is the basis of involvement of the State Government ~an had thousands of words to say; I ask him to gtve me a chance. I was told, in Insurance Office. As far as I knew, the effect, that I was talking a lot of nonsense. S.G.I.O. was going to provide funds on a I think I have proved by quoting from the certain basis. Of course, because Government report that what I said was correct. No back-benchers have not been privy to the contribution is made to the Consolidated arrangements being made, I did not know Revenue Fund in the form of taxation from that basis, and probably that was correct. the Workers' Compensation Fund. That is However, I understand that by some arrange­ accurate and correct, and that is the point ment the S.G.I.O. was going to be involved I care to make in regard to that. until such time as the Contingency Fund could take care of the problem for those As l am on my feet, I might refer to societies. From the Treasurer's speech today the question of building societies in Queens­ I gather that in effect it will be a take-over. land. In general I am very disturbed and concerned because the building industry is I am not sure about that, and I would going to be knocked to leg as a result of like clarification. Is it a matter of the S.G.I.O. the. ~rea~dow~ of confidence in building helping out in the meantime or is it that societies m this State. Why is it happening the S.G.I.O. will become a large building m Queensland? Four or five years ago I was society in its own right? With its enormous privileged to attend an international con­ financial backing, it would be in a much ference on housing and loan societies superior position to that of all the other involving 47 countries. There were just building societies. If that is to be the case, on 2,000 delegates present. The conference it somewhat horrifies me because it would was . held at the Wentworth in Sydney, mean that all other societies would be at a and 1t was a wonderful occasion. I learned great disadvantage. I am not clear on the that building societies are operating very point. I just do not know the answer to successfully in small and large countries the problem. throughout the world, purely by the simple A previous speaker referred to the authority method of accepting funds from small people to demand-a bureaucratic demand-that and allowing those funds to be used for certain things happen, such as amalgamation. the building of homes, normally again for Perhaps if there were some appeal this sm~ll people. They are performing satisfac­ could be regulated other than by a demand ton_Jy. everywhere, the reason being that the of an individual or two individuals. That societies are operating in the market-place would make for a much happier situation. generally speaking. In other words, they We are in a very difficult spot, but I know offer a rate of interest that will attract that if building societies are able to handle funds, and with minimal administration costs their own affairs with administrative control, those funds are handed out to people to and operate in the market-place, we will Building Societies Act (13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3649

have the people's funds being used by others rates that were charged and asked that they for the benefit of housing. I should like to be fixed. The Government did a good job see that happen; it happens elsewhere. I am by fixing them. However, since then the inclined to think we are heading in the wrong interest rates have risen from 6t to 7 per direction. cent, later to 7! per cent and now to 9t per cent. These increases place the borrow­ Mr. JENSEN (Bundaberg) (3.10 p.m.): I ers at a serious disadvantage. am delighted to take part in this debate. I was most interested in the Minister's com­ I turn now to the Bowkett societies. The ments. He made three most important Treasurer has said that they will continue points. They were, firstly, that the Bill was to operate. designed to safeguard to the utmost possible Sir Gordon Chalk: The Bowketts will oper­ extent the interests of the general public ate under a separate set-up. who are members and depositors of Queens­ land building societies; secondly, there would Mr. JENSEN: They will continue? be a thorough review of all advertising used Sir Gordon Chalk: The 63 Bowketts will by building societies with a view to with­ continue until they run out. drawing advertisements that may be con­ sidered to give the wrong impression to the Mr. JENSEN: I do not know much about general public; and, thirdly, the Bill would the Bowkett societies. I do, however, know ensure that building societies foster and pro­ what Mutual Home Loans was up to when I mote those objects for which they are formed. raised that matter some time ago. The man­ Those were the three most important aging director of that concern, Mr. Reynolds, points made by the Minister, and they have threatened to make me apologise and to been backed up by the Treasurer, who put sue me. However, I told him to read the forward other important facts and figures. Criminal Code. The Government has done the right thing Although I warned my daughter about put­ in bringing the S.G.I.O. into the building ting money into certain things, she invested society movement. In 1972 I asked the in a Tasman Bowkett. People put their money then Minister for Housing to create an into these societies because they are a gamble. S.G.I.O. building society. My purpose was If they draw the right number, they get an to keep interest rates down. I thought .that interest-free loan or a cash bonus. This the S.G.I.O. would offer security to invest­ scheme is similar to the disgr

did we in this Parliament, because people provide standby finance to get the deficit believed-and I think that, in the absence companies operating again and would then of assurances to the contrary, they were withdraw as the Contingency Fund filled up entitled to believe-that constant checks with the statutory contributions made by all and controls existed to ensure that the societies in the future. Then the S.G.I.O. societies and their executives were kept to withdrawal would mean that the five com­ a strait and narrow path. Therefore, if panies merged into one would be able to there is now trouble for some of the societies, sail ahead as one large viable competitor, in people believe that at least in part it is our true competition with the other existing fault also. societies. But as I understand what has been said today, that is not the case now. The Without doubt, the overwhelming bulk of S.G.I.O. is going into the housing society this Bill is to be welcomed because it will ensure that what people thought was hap­ business and is going into it in a very big pening will indeed happen in the future, and permanent way. and that is a very good thing indeed. But Mr. Jensen: Not before time, either. it is not surprising if most people believe that a rescue operation mounted through Mr. PORTER: The honourable gentleman this Government will be aimed at retrieving thinks that it is not before time. That is his a situation we thought should not have political philosophy; it is not mine and it happened. Certainly, people can be excused most certainly is not the philosophy for being somewhat surprised if they dis­ espoused by the overwhelming majority of cover that this is not merely a rescue opera­ people in this State. tion alone but rather something that opens This is a take-over because, as I under­ a vital door and admits the S.G.I.O. into stand it, the S.G.,I.O. will acquire the assets the building society field. If anybody does of these societies and buy up their mort­ not think that that will change the nature gages, and then an S.G.I.O. housing society and the scope of the building society field or building society will compete with the to a degree that we are not yet able to existing building societies. If I am not perceive, I suggest that he is either very correct in this assumption, either of the simple or wants the changes that this Bill will make. Ministers who are doing a tandem job on this legislation can correct me. But that is Why must we have a rescue operation what I assume the position will be. that has significant strings attached to it? With that situation, this Parliament has to One is led to believe that the actual sum ask itself what will be the eventual ramifica­ needed to make the five suspended societies tions, repercussions and significances of the operative again was just under $6,000,000. entry by the S.G.I.O. into large-scale The largest part of this was in the Bowkett housing society finance. societies and not in the ordinary lending society side of the operation. After all, on Mr. K. J. Hooper: Socialism! past occasions, we rescued the A.L.P. Lord Mayor (Cl em J ones) with sums not much Mr. PORTER: That is quite correct. less than this. We have been told that the What sort of competition will be provided Housing Societies Association was unable to by this new society, with its massive backing come up with any alternative plan for finan­ as a statutory Government authority? And cing the Contingency Fund to get the it will be that; it will be an extension of that suspended societies out of trouble. But we authority. It will be in an enormously have not been told any details of this. The powerful and advantaged position, and it is Housing Societies Association maintains, nonsense (and I think deception) to suggest even at this late stage, that it did have a that it will be otherwise. Of course it will viable proposition for using S.G.I.O. funds, be in an advantaged position, just as the but having them used through the building S.G.I.O. is in an advantaged position in industry-the building societies. certain aspects of insurance. I wonder if the Treasury made any I believe that members on this side of the approaches to see if the trading banks would House cannot look with indifference at this assist with this. We do not know. I believe prospect-! cannot, even if it is remote­ that the trading banks must have a sym­ of an S.G.I.O. company getting itself into a pathetic appreciation of this problem, and monopoly or at least a commanding position the sum is not a great one when we con­ in the housing society field. Remember, this template what Governments are involved in. will affect not only the building society field. If the S.G.I.O. is going to acquire the mort­ With a commanding role in the building gages and take over the assets of these society set-up, just think how advantaged companies, in one fell swoop it will shell the S.G.I.O. will be in the field of home out $45,000,000 or something of that nature insurance. It will be able to soak up a in the operation. To me that seems a decision tremendous share of this type of business. of very massive proportions. Half the homes built in the State are built through building societies, and hence this What is being presented here, in my view, move may well have a tremendously is very different from what many expected. damaging effect on the private insurance I believe it is different from what I was led companies. This is what we on this side of to expect. I believed that the S.G.I.O. would the House stand for; we are apostles of free 3652 Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill enterprise and competition. We believe that injected which leaves me extremely doubtful the Government should be a referee, and not of the long-term outcome for building society a referee and a player combined. operations in general. Mr. Houston: That's why you're not in the Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (3.34 p.m.): Cabinet. It is always surprising to me personally to hear the honourable member for Toowong Mr. PORTER: The honourable member speak because he does not seem to mind when makes a gibe about my not being in the the S.G.I.O. spends hundreds of thousands 0f Cabinet. The fault may not be mine. I want dollars with groups such as Alfred Grant and to say that we on this side of the House loses similar amounts of money or when it believe in the Government setting rules but invests in hotel-motel complexes, but when a leaving players to play under the rules, and decision is made to use the S.G.I.O., as the it is not surprising that the comments of the Treasurer has done here, to help ordinary honourable member for Archerfield and the people and to try to do something for the Leader of the Opposition and the interjections housing industry, he suddenly screams about that have been coming from the Opposition the socialist tiger and gets back on his capi­ show how vociferously and enthusiastically talist bent. It is a great pity that he does not they welcome this Bill and how they pointed put things in their right perspective, because to the socialistic implications of it. It seems here an attempt is being made to help ordin­ to me a very unhappy thing that we on this ary people and to help the industry generally. side of the House, after the Opposition is However, there are some points that I reduced to a mere rump of 11 in 82, should think need clarification. Although the be fulfilling their policy for them. Treasurer and the Minister for Works and Certainly this move is not, as I said, what Housing have endeavoured to answer some I was led to believe would happen. In another of them by interjection, further comment is place I put what I considered to be a straight needed. I refer specifically to the future of question and I got what I accepted as a the Bowkett system now operating in this straight answer. This is not that answer. In­ State. The Treasurer said that the three deed, I say it is the reverse of it. The S.G.I.O. existing societies will be amalgamated in some Permanent Building Society will make the way and allowed to continue functioning. It Opposition happy. It will certainly not make seems to me that the Bowkett system will me happy, and I would hope that many others fail unless more investors are allowed to on this side of the House would also be un­ enter into it. Therefore, honourable members happy about it because we do not want to be need to know exactly what is going to responsible for creating a watered-down ver­ happen. sion of socialism; and certainly I think it is People entered the Bowkett scheme most improper that we should be hurried into because they saw it firstly as a way of saving accepting a proposition the long-term effects and secondly as a way of eventually getting of which may well haunt parties on our side a reasonable loan. As honourable members of politics for many long years to come. Of know, they have made monthly contribu­ course we all want the building society busi­ tions-some of them for four or five years­ ness back to normal as soon as possible. receiving no interest rate, in the belief that Everybody is saying confidence must be re· eventually they will be able to borrow at a stored. Amen to that. But to believe that can low interest rate, say, 4 or 5 per cent. I only happen via the route that is proposed wonder how people who have entered into a today is, I believe, completely erroneous. We contract in that sense will receive any benefit certainly do not want rescue for some which from their investment. During the years they puts the sword of Damocles over others. have had their money in the Bowkett system, As I say, we here stand for certain basic they have not received any benefit. Inflation principles that the Australian and the Queens­ has destroyed the value of the money inves­ land electorates have shown by a 2 to 1 vote ted; they have not received any interest on at elections a year apart that they espouse. the money they have invested, and now it is They want us to stand by those principles, quite possible that they will not gain the and I certainly believe that this proposition benefit of a low-interest loan. to allow the S.G.I.O. to come into the field Therefore, I believe that the Minister is not in accordance with what the electorate needs to explain very carefully what he expected us to do. I believe that prospects intends. I have received numerous inquiries for rescue should be looked at in a different from people in my area-and there are many way from the one that is proposed. If this people in the Bowkett system there-who new arm of the S.G.I.O. octopus was to be realise that there have been problems. They made a terminating society, one might-only realise, too, that there is the incentive of might-look at it differently, but for anybody having a chance every month to draw a to see the S.G.I.O., which is so often harshly no-interest loan or a certain amount of criticised by the Auditor-General for sloppy money that they may use for their own accounting procedures and which has not a purposes. That has been one of the incentives wonderful record in terms of development in­ that seemed to be necessary from the vestment, as a St. George rescuing the maiden society's point of view. The Bowkett syste.m, from the dragon is a parody of the facts. Mr. under which people are prepared to receive Speaker, I deeply regret the necessity for no interest for some time for the ultimate entering this debate, but matter has been benefit of a low-interest loan, has merit. Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3653

Although some honourable members may Also, it is time we attempted not fully understand the system, I believe to discover some way of getting at the that it has a fair amount of merit and is personal assets of these offenders. It is all accepted by a number of people. Therefore very well to put them in prison for two years I ask for an explanation on that point. and fine them $5,000, but they know .that There is also a need for further explanation when they come out they have a $100,000 from the Minister for Works and Housing of home and tens of thousands of dollars the sacking of staff throughout the State. invested in other enterprises that cannot be Many people have been sacked-perhaps touched. It is time we copied the system in "retrenched" would be a better word-and England where, if a rerson is involved in others are working on a week-to-week basis. fraud, and has robbed ordinary investors, his This may be all right for city investors, who assets can be got at. That is the only way can go to an office and find someone working justice will be done here. there; but it is certainly not all right for I made note of the Minister's mention of people in country regions. Let me take first advertising. I am very pleased that he the example of Blackwater. People there are intends to do something about it. He said completely in the dark. There is no sense in that he has instructed an offic·er of the reg­ their getting in touch with some of the istrar's office to review all advertising used smaller societies that have been suspended by building societies. He went on to say and the staff of which have been dismissed; that he intends to have approval for certain no-one is there to tell them anything. The officers who are there in a caretaking types of advertisements withdrawn. capacity do not really know what to say, and There are four main areas involved in the it would seem that the suspended societies misleading advertisements that appear. Many still need staff to go out and explain to investors think that building societies are people in Blackwater and other mining towns banks because the likes of the honourable exactly what is happening. A big cloud of member for Brisbane say that they are as darkness still hangs over the whole issue. safe as banks. They issue passbooks, des­ I raise the matter of one clause of the cribe their cashiers as tellers and refer to Bill, relating to fraud by officers of the their accounts as savings accounts, when in societies. fact they are not banks and do not enjoy the facilities which make bank investments Mr. SPEAKER: Order! safer than other investments. Investors believe that investments in building societies Mr. WRIGHT: I do not intend to refer are at call-that a person can simply go specifically to the clause, Mr. Speaker, but along at any time and ask for his money it is important to note that the penalty that back. In fact they are not at call. The will be incurred for fraud or malpractice investor has no legal right to demand repay­ could be $5,000 or two years' imprisonment. ment at call. In fact, under the rules of This will not overcome problems such as most societies, repayment can be deferred those that have arisen over the last couple but people are not aware of that and have of months. It is not going to bring to book been misled by the societies themselves. those persons in the Australian Co-operative Investors usually think of building society Development Society who milked a lot of investments as deposits or loans whereas in money-in fact, hundreds of thousands of fact they are usually investments in with­ dollars-from the Australian Permanent drawable shares, with the investor having no Building Society. The honourable member for legal right to demand repayment of capital or Archerfield has related to the House on other dividend at any particular rate. They seem occasions circumstances that completely back to believe from advertisements that they will up what I am saying. These defalcations get such-and-such an interest rate and that have taken place. The Leader of the Oppo­ they can withdraw their money at any time sition also raised these matters as a result they want to. They feel that they can ask for of a meeting he went to on Friday last. that capital and that dividend. Again, that is not so. It would seem to me that the only real answer is to make the penalties retrospective. They are led to believe that the building If we do that, we may be able to deal with societies are Government guaranteed. They the persons who posed as officers of the are not Government guaranteed, but that is Australian Permanent Building Society and, the impression gained by many investors by doing so, convinced people that they from advertisements that refer to the loans should put money into the Australian Co­ of the society being insured with the Gov­ operative Development Society-in many ernment-guaranteed Housing Loans Insurance cases, tens of thousands of dollars-believing Corporation. That latter statement is true it was going into another sector of the Aus­ in itself, because they are insured with the tralian Permanent Building Society, and Housing Loans Insurance Corporation. It believing that they were simply going to have is therefore thought by investors that the a fixed-term investment at a higher interest building societies are Government backed. rate. I hope that the clause in the Bill can That is not so. I was very pleased that the be used to bring those people to justice, Treasurer raised that again. He is going to because they certainly have robbed many have to do more than that; he is almost going people in Queensland. to have to walk the highways and by-ways 3654 Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill to convince people, because the smart oper­ A current problem, whether money is made ator will still tell investors that that is the available by the banks or the building way it is. societies, is that young people have great difficulty in obtaining a loan of the maximum It is quite obvious that we need to look sum required. They may be able to obtain very closely at the advertisements used. I $18,000 from a building society or from the have made some recommendations that have Housing Commission, but they are required been discussed with members of the Oppo­ to find the balance of, say, the $27,000 sition, in particular the honourable member that is the cost of their home. It seems for Archerfield. we need to look further than we are looking The first point is the use of the phrase today. A recent issue of the "Telegraph" "no fixed term". It should be eliminated, as featured an article on lateral thinking. It the investment can be converted into a seems that we could use a little lateral fixed term if the building society exercises thinking on this. Instead we go on and on. its right to defer payment. Yet building I suggest that we have an alternative in the societies say that there is no fixed term. Queensland Housing Commission. More suitable wording would be along these The plan that I envisage could be exten­ lines-"an investment in withdrawable shares ded. Young people could be encouraged to which are normally repayable without notice, invest even $20 a week, thereby allowing but the society under its rules has the power them to be granted higher loans. Such a to defer payment." That tells the whole plan has tremendous advantages. Besides truth. involving people in a home-saving approach and giving them incentives to save money, The use of advertisements with an illus­ it would make available a large pool of tration of passbooks or descriptions of invest­ finance to the Government. Security would ments as savings accounts should be elimin­ be given to the building industry in that it ated, unless, of course, a clear explanation would not need to worry about the avail­ is given. That is not always so. I note, ability of finance through the banks or the too, that most societie§ simply indicate the building societies. Finance would be avail­ current dividend rate. It might be 9t per able from the Housing Commission, having cent or, in days gone by, 7t per cent. The been invested with it by prospective home investor should be told-in fact, it should builders. be advertised-that that dividend or interest payment can be changed at any time and is I admit that it is desirable that such a scheme operate through a State bank. We not legally enforcable. do not have a State bank. Nevertheless There are a number of points the Minister such a scheme is worth consideration, so I ask should look at if we are to overcome the the Treasurer and the Minister for Works advertising problems in this State; no doubt and Housing to consider it is an extension he is taking cognisance of them; I certainly of the provisions of the Bill. hope that when the recommendations are I whole-heartedly support this legislation brought down by the registrar, he will be and congratulate the Treasurer and the Min­ able to enforce them. ister for Works and Housing on their efforts I wish to make a point on the role of to restore confidence in the building society rhe State Government Insurance Office in industry. It is important that such con­ fidence be maintained, building societies. It is vital that we build and this Bill goes a up the housing industry. We have always long way towards achieving that. had this total dependence on private enter­ Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (3.48 p.m.): I do prise for building finance. That is the way not intend to canvass all the points that have it has been under the capitalist system we already been raised by previous speakers. have in this Commonwealth and in this State. I agree with those members who have sup­ The involvement of the S.G.I.O. in the ported the Bill. Legislation that tightens building society industry is a step in the the control of building societies is long right direction but it could go a lot further. overdue. Comments have been made to the eff·ect .that I enter the debate for what might be we should not be using insurance investors' termed parochial reasons. I am concerned money for housing purposes. If there is any at to what the future holds for some of argument there-the honourable member for the small, well-run building societies, par­ Toowong promoted such an argument; not ticularly those in the Mackay area. The that I agree with it-Jet us consider the exist­ Minister for Works and Housing and the ing instrument, that is, the Queensland Treasurer would probably know that one of Housing Commission. Why can't it be used those societies is one of the oldest in in a way similar to building societies? Why Queensland. I pay a tribute to its directors can't people be allowed to save with the by stating that it is also one of the best Housing Commission? Why can't they be run. It was a well-run society long before permitted to enter into a five-year saving building societies became fashionable, long plan in which they deposit, say, $10 a week, before they started leasing luxurious offices or $520 a year, or $2,600 in five years? At in Queen Street to give the impression that the end of that five-year term they could they were banking institutions and long receive a guaranteed loan, and a loan of the before the growth of the two major building total sum required to build a home. societies in the State. Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976) Amendment Bill 3655

Some of the provincial-city societies are Some of them are fairly elementary but so well run that they cater exclusively for they were missed when the legislation was housing purposes. One such society in my first drafted. area is able to lend money in today's com­ petitive market at a rate of interest t per Sir Gordon Chalk: No. cent lower than that charged by other societies. In other words, the benefits from Mr. CASEY: I cite the one relative to the way in which the society is managed the commencement of the Act. Over the flow to those who should receive it-the week-end I sat down in Mackay with some borrowers. I am concerned that despite the of the directors of the local building societies. efforts over the years of these men who The first thing we looked at was the date run their societies properly-men who which was to be laid down. That was an would not condone such practices and who obvious omission. Nothing was laid down­ have not been involved in any way in the as it is in every other Act-about the skulduggery engaged in by other building commencement date of that Act. Some little societies-unfortunately they will have to things have been missed. I am not trying impose a higher lending rate on their to blame anyone in particular. I am merely borrowers. saying that because of the haste to bring forward this legislation-- Sir Gordon Chalk: That is the maximum; they can offer a lower rate. Mr. Lee: You cannot keep the people on the hook all the time. Mr. CASEY: That is true, but despite their efforts to maintain their societies prop­ Mr. CASEY: That is true. erly they will be forced to increase interest rates. I am concerned because, as has been admitted, we are dealing with some fairly Sir Gordon Chalk: They are not forced sharp operators who have been working at all. rackets in building societies in Queensland. They will be able to pick fairly quickly any Mr. CASEY: They will be by the 0.25 per further loop-holes if there are any in the cent for the contingency fund. legislation. It is unfortunate that this House Sir Gordon Chalk: Why? is about to go into recess. If small points have been missed it may be three or four Mr. CASEY: They '~ill be forced to impose months before we can introduce further a higher interest rate on their borrowers amending legislation. because of the malpractices of directors of other societies. There are some aspects of the building societies affair, if I may use that term, on I am not concerned greatly about the which I would like some further answers State-wide societies with a multitude of from the Minister or the Treasurer at a later offices. I am speaking on behalf of some stage in the debate. I put forward these of the smaller societies. I am afr

Mr. CASEY: That is a point on which I employee of any director as well. This could wanted some clarification because a number create hardships in some aspects of this type of queries have been raised about it. of lending. The Bill is very complicated and Another thing many people would like I do not know whether it contains provisions to know about the Bowketts is what will elsewhere such as those dealing with special happen to the funds of those who have resolutions of the board of directors that already deferred their payments. Many will override this provision or the definition people have suspended their savings plan of "associate". The Bill provides that a system-I do not want to use the term director's associate cannot in any way be "opted out"-for a period of time, or associated with such lending. I think that deferred it. Will they come in on exactly the provision should be defined more clearly. same basis, or will they still suffer the loss I should also like a clearer definition of that had been indicated to them early in the "daily balances" for calculation of the piece by the society? That is another point amount to be paid into the Contingency that needs clarification. Fund. On my interpretation, the daily One other question that has not been balance refers simply to the daily balance answered so far and on which I believe most of the payments or subscriptions-the amount of the building societies would like an indi­ deposited with the society at that stage. Some cation-particularly the smaller ones, because people in building societies feel that the figure they are concerned about the increase they required is the actual balance at any stage, have had to pass on to their borrowers­ including all deficits, credits and loans; in is just how long the Contingency Fund is other words, the balance on hand for any expected to run. Will it run at its current day. This should be defined more clearly so level for all time? The first part of the Bill that people know what will be their com­ now before the House is designed to tighten mitment. up our legislation, and I believe that if it is There are some other small problems. successful it will bring the situation to the Perhaps a query at the clauses stage might point which we should never again experience be sufficient. I have raised several major in building society operations in Queensland points that have arisen out of discussions the unfortunate occurrences that we have had I had with directors of some of the smaller in recent months. societies during the week-end. I pray that The second part of the legislation sets up the Minister may be able to answer some of the Contingency Fund. From the figures that them for me. have been quoted, after a number of years we can expect the fund to have grown to Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for a considerable size. How long is it expected Works and Housing) (4.2 p.m.), in reply: that the fund will last? If it is seen that the I thank honourable members for their con­ section of the Bill designed to tighten up the tributions. Most of the matters raised were legislation is successful, I believe that at covered during the introductory debate. It some future time, when all the current was gratifying to learn that so many honour­ circumstances have been overcome and a able members are on side with this Bill. sufficient fund has been built up, there rt is a very important Bill that will affect could be either a considerable lowering in many people because the S.G.I.O. has come the rate being charged for the Contingency to the rescue for the first time and these Fund or perhaps even a complete suspension people can now see daylight and know that of it, with a fidelity guarantee fund or they will obtain dollar for dollar. fidelity insurance being introduced by the The honourable member for Archerfield various building societies to cover any prob­ referred to the Companies Act. I told him lems that might then occur. at the introductory stage that we are getting After all, if the societies are tightened up in line with the Companies Act. I also told and all their loans are made for housing, him about advertising and the appointment as is supposedly intended, they will be of six extra inspectors to police the Act. covered by the Commonwealth Govern­ r think that all of his queries have been ment's Housing Loans Insurance Corpora­ covered. tion and everything should be quite stable The Treasurer said that he would iike to from that time on. Problems could then see other societies take up this money instead arise only in the event of defalcation by of the S.G.I.O. After all, we are a free­ directors of some societies and that situation enterprise Government and would like to see could possibly be covered by fidelity insur­ this happen. But they could not do it. ance, as it is in so many other spheres What are we to do-stand by and let all of activity. of the building societies collapse around our There are two other matters that concern ears rather than have the S.G.I.O. come in me and maybe they could be cleared up and help the societies that have problems? by the Minister. To a large extent the Bill Honourable members should think of those sets out who may or may not receive funds matters before making their statements. and what activities the directors may under­ The Leader of the Opposition spoke about take in lending money. The word "associate" the G.A.P. employees. Employees will is used quite often and is defined in part in receive all lawful entitlements. They will the BilL A difficulty could arise in smaller get whatever they are entitled o under the towns and areas. The Bill would debar any law or an award. Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3657

Mr. Burns: Every one of the eight? Mr. LEE: They will all be merged into Mr. LEE: Any one of the eight societies. one society, but not a Bowkett society. That part of it will be placed in the hands of an The honourable member also spoke about administrator. The S.G.I.O. society will be a transfer of engagements, the Bill's being a permanent building society, not a Bowkett socialist document and so forth. Let us be society. honest; he spoke with tongue in cheek. He knows that the power has existed for a long Mr. Houston: Will it use the same time in the New South Wales Act. All we computer? have done is to adopt this provision in the New South Wales Act. Calling it a socialist Mr. LEE: The same administrator. I am document is just a pack of gefuffie. The not sure about the computer, therefore I honourable member also spoke about the cannot comment on that. provision relating to joint directors. They can be quickly removed if their interests conflict. The honourable member for Rockhampton I think I have told the honourable member also spoke about fraud. There is a pro­ that before, and in my view there is adequate vision relating to personal liability when a provision to remove directors if their interests society is being managed incorrectly. If conflict. this leads to a society being wound up, there The honourable member for Mt. Gravatt is adequate provision to summons the per­ spoke about the S.G.I.O. I must repeat that son responsible, and he could be subject to it looks as if something in the vicinity of a very heavy fine. Therefore the fraud side $54,000,000 will be required for this rescue of it has been looked after. The honour­ operation and I know of no place able member also mentioned advertising. In where we can obtain this sort of money at my introductory remarks I said that we will this rate of interest other than the S.G.I.O. inspect advertisements and, if necessary, will We have given the industry the opportunity. tighten up the requirements. If these adver­ The honourable member for Toowong said tisements are misleading to the point of that he would like to see the financial con­ fraud, again the same action can be taken. fidence of the little people restored. I Stiff fines could be imposed. really hope that this will be achieved by what we are doing, and I hope that some The honourable member for Mackay was of the doubts the honourable member worried about employees and directors. If expressed have been cleared up. There is he looks at my introductory speech, he will one thing we can do-and I am sure the see that I stated very clearly that there could Treasurer will back me up on this-if the be five directors and one employee and seven S.G.I.O. is in fact getting too much money directors and two employees. That is to be and that is to restrict its intake of money. the ratio. We do not want the opposite If its operations acted to the detriment of situation to arise-in other words, five dir­ other societies, we could also ask the ectors being employees-because they could S.G.I.O. to lower its rates so that it would then direct the company in whatever way not attract money easily. I believe we have they wished. That has in fact happened in the flexibility to prevent the S.G.I.O. the past, and that is why specific provision becoming a monopoly. We do not want has been included in the Bill. the S.G.I.O. to become a monopoly and, as I say, we can stop it from becoming one The honourable member spoke also about by either reducing its money intake or directors being over a certain age. The Act lowering its borrowing and lending rates. is being amended to provide that directors Mr. K. J. Hooper: You did a very good who are over 72 years of age may be re­ job of piloting this through the House. elected by the members each year. Motion (Mr. Lee) agreed to. Mr. LEE: I do not know whether that is a kiss of death or a compliment, but on this occasion I take it is a compliment. CONTINGENT MOTION The honourable member for Rockhampton Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for spoke about the Bowkett system. I think the Works and Housing), by leave, without honourable member for Mackay also men­ notice: I move- tioned it, so I can answer both of them. The honourable members wanted to know "That it be an instruction to the Com­ how it will operate. First of all, let me say mittee that they have power to consider that it will be placed under the control of an amendment to insert in the Bill on an administrator. In other words, we will page 3 8, after clause 3 8, a new clause take the three Bowkett societies, merge them relating to additional powers of the Regis­ into one and o!ace them under an adminis­ trar when appointing directors." trator. As I· say, there will be payments a<; usual, but there will be no new Bowkett Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ plans-- Deputy Premier and Treasurer): I second the motion. Mr. Casey: Payments will still be done through the S.G.I.O. one? Motion (Mr. Lee) agreed to. 3658 Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

CoMMITTEE for various reasons, such as bankruptcy or if he is convicted of a criminal offence. What (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. about the former director of a society who Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) is a chartered accountant but whose member­ Clause 1, as read, agreed to. ship has been suspended for two years Insertion of new clause- because of a breach of professional ethics? What about the gentleman whose name was Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for mentioned this afternoon, the former Works and Housing): I move the following managing director of Tasman, Colin Sinclair? amendment- I think such a person should be debarred "On page 1, insert the following new from sitting on the board of a building clause to follow clause 1:- society. The expose this afternoon of Colin '2. Commencement of Act. (1) The Sinclair has probably done him a good turn following provisions of this Act shall be in the sense that nobody will now employ taken, to the extent indicated in this him and in all probability that will keep him subsection, to have commenced on 1 out of gaol. January 1976 and to have retrospective One thing that worries me about the effect accordingly:- clause is that, in announcing the proposed section 17; S.G.I.O. board, the Treasurer mentioned Mr. paragraph (a) of section 19; Ken Allison. It is an open secret around section 35 to the extent that it inserts town that Mr. Allison was dismissed from section 36D (1) into the Principal his previous employment. Act. Mr. Lee: No. (2) Section 20 shall be taken to have Sir Gordon Chalk: Not to our knowledge. commenced on 8 April 1976 and to have retrospective effect accordingly. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I will accept the (3) Save as is prescribed by subsec­ denial. The rumour around town is that he tions (1) and (2) this Act shall commence was dismissed in the time of the Whitlam on the date it is assented to for and on Government when he was employed by behalf of the Crown.' " Medical Benefits. It is an open secret around Amendment agreed to. town; I would not say that if it were not true. I would like an assurance from the New clause 2, as read, agreed to. Treasurer that, if that is true, Mr. Allison Clauses 2 to 10, both inclusive, as read, will not be allowed to sit on the proposed agreed to. board. Clause 11-Repeal of and new s. 22F; Sir Gordon Chalk: I have no knowledge of Removal from office, etc.- it. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the Works and Housing}: I move the following Opposition) (4.18 p.m.): After following the amendment:- speech of the Treasurer, I think we need an "On page 5, omit all words comprising iron-clad clause in the Bill to deal with the lines 20 to 25, both inclusive, with a view credibility and suitability of directors of to inserting in lieu thereof the following societies. The clause which refers to the words:- removal of directors from office in certain '(k) if he or his associate has a direct circumstances is not tough enough. It states- or indirect pecuniary interest in any "(a) if he is made bankrupt or takes agreement with the Society otherwise advantage of the laws in force for the time than- being relating to bankruptcy.'' (i) as a member of, and iii common The economic realities of the times are that with the other members of a body wise businessmen never trade in their own corporate consisting of more than 20 name as sole traders or partners in a firm. persons; When I talk about wise businessmen, I am (ii) as a partner in a body of talking about men who want to use the persons that provides the Society with system-not honest businessmen, but secretarial or administrative services; businessmen wise in the ways of the world. or Not only for estate-planning reasons, but (iii) as a person who provides the more importantly to avoid the consequences Society with secretarial or administra­ of bankruptcy, competent and well-advised tive services;'." businessmen trade on the market-place under the guise of the company structure. By Amendment agreed to. operating under what is referred to as the Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (4.16 corporate veil, such a businessman can avoid p.m.): Basically this clause deals with the personal liability for tortious and criminal removal from office of the director under actions. certain circumstances. Fundamentally I do Businessmen enjoy a relatively protected agree with the clause, but I have a query I position if they form a company and trade in wish to put to the Minister. The clause the name of some fictitious person. If through provides that the director shall be dismissed reckless or careless management a businessman Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3659 trading in his own name damns his own the society with secretarial or administrative business by allowing his liabilities to exceed services." Does that cover management com­ his assets, he suffers the consquence of panies that have been referred to on a number bankruptcy. If, however, his business col­ of occasions? lapses as a result of recklessness or careless It has been clearly shown that scrupulous management and he has set himself up as directors of these building societies-! am a company-all the company needs is two talking not about the good directors but directors, such as himself and his wife­ about a couple who have been named clearly the company goes into liquidation and the in this Parliament-- individual businessman is still able to become a building society director. Mr. Moore: Did you say "scrupulous" or "unscrupulous"? Provision has been made in this clause only for the involvement of the director in bank­ Mr. BURNS: Unscrupulous in one way and ruptcy, or "if he takes advantage of the laws scrupulous in another way. They are scrupu­ in force". I would like to know exactly lously clear on what they are going to do what that means. While the company is being to manipulate the law. The term can be wound up, he is forming another company used either way. under another name, and he can be a direc­ They can pay themselves too much money tor of a building society or he can do what in salaries and other expenses, such as tra­ has been done, as has been clearly shown, velling allowances. They can lend money in Australian Co-operative Development to themselves at favourable rates directly or Society-that is, set himself up again and lend money to other companies, which then be operative. lend money back to the directors concerned, The purpose and intention of excluding so that it cannot really be traced in accord­ a director from office once he has become ance with the Act. They can do and have bankrupt is obvious. The exclusion is done a lot of things that I believe are designed to ensure efficient and competent corrupt. management. I suggest that the section I cannot see that clause 11 (1) and clause should include a provision to cover that type 12 are designed to cover situations of the of situation and to exclude from office direc­ type that I am raising or that they are tors who have been directors of companies designed to ensure that situations of con­ that have gone into liquidation where the flict and interest are avoided. I do not liquidators are of the opinion that the liquida­ know that we have really covered it. I tion is the result of reckless, careless or am not claiming to have the answer; I am fraudulent management. If that is not done merely raising certain queries concerning the we will have a situation similar to that of clause. At the second-reading stage the the directors of the Australian Co-operative Treasurer said that he does not know whether Development Society, who themselves are or not we have covered this. not bankrupt but are directors of a society that is in liquidation and are the subject Page 15 of the Australian Co-operative of a report such as this- Development Society liquidators' report refers to situations where directors operating "The liquidators are of the opinion that under the corporate veil through a series the society was insolvent at all material of companies having a complete disregard times from its inception and that the for fiduciary duty can engage in gigantic continuation of this business by the direc­ public frauds. I suggest that clauses 11 (1) tors was a travesty of management and and 12 do not give protection against this a serious disregard of the rights of those situation. They merely say a director can­ who in good faith deposited funds in the not be a director if he has a pecuniary belief that they were making a sound and interest in or agreement with the society. safe investment." But we have already seen illustrated in the As I read the clause, those men are pro­ Australian Co-operative Development Society tected and can still be directors of a building how directors can lend money from one society. They have not gone broke; but society to the next and derive a direct they have been directors of a society that benefit, and while in reality they have derived has been manipulated, and as the liquidator a direct pecuniary interest there is no con­ would say, have been guilty of "a travesty tract or agreement between the principal of management and a serious disregard of bnilding society and the director. If a the rights of those who in good faith deposited director is perpetrating a fraud, he does not their funds." Surely we have to cover that necessarily breach clause 11 (1). It worries situation. This clause must be designed to me that that clause does not seem to cover prevent directors who have been in that type what I have been looking for. of situation from again becoming directors. I repeat that, following the Treasurer's I imagine that the amendment that has speech today, we must have iron-clad clauses been added covers management companies. in this Bill covering the credibility and It says "as a member of or in common suitability of directors of societies. with other members of a body corporate con­ I submit that, today, the Treasurer sisting of more than 20 persons or as a admitted that certain shady individuals with partner in a body of persons that provides a record of criminal irresponsibility extending 3660 Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

over three years or more have been per­ Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for mitted to trade legally with public funds in Works and Housing): I move the following this State because of the deficiencies of further amendment:- National-Liberal Government laws. In other "On page 6, line 14, after the word words, they have been allowed to defraud, 'practicable' insert the words- deceive and cheat because of the Govern­ 'at a meeting of the directors'." ment's failure to provide correct laws. I think it is well known to all of us that Amendment agreed to. company crooks spend their time studying laws and looking for loop-holes. The legal Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for loop-holes are the direct product of what Works and Housing): I move the following this Government has tolerated and condoned further amendment:- over the past 19 years in which it has been "On page 6, omit all words comprising the controlling agent of the 90-year-old lines 27 and 28, with a view to inserting building society laws. The Government can­ in lieu thereof the following words- not escape its guilt; nor can it escape the 'activities and operations in which the blame for the suffering, loss and agony that other body corporate is engaged are or it has allowed to be perpetrated on countless are likely to be such that that person thousands of Queenslanders. should not be a director.' " It is par for the course for the Treasurer Amendment agreed to. to use Parliament, under the protection of privilege, to launch an attack on Mr. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Sinclair. I think he deserves it. I am Works and Housing): I move the following not defending him in any way. But anything further amendment:- he has done and anything he has gained "On page 7, omit all words comprising has been made possible only because of the lines 28 to 34 both inclusive." inadequacy, the incompetence or the indiffer­ Amendment agreed to. ence of the Government and its laws. The Treasurer has been in Parliament since 1957. Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (4.30 p.m.): Again It is the Government's laws-·- the matter I wish to refer to is of more con­ cern to the smaller societies than to the Sir Gordon Chalk: Since 1947. bigger ones such as Metropolitan Permanent or Queensland Permanent. I am concerned Mr. BURNS: The Treasurer has been in about a combination of certain parts of this since 1947; vie can give him 30 years of clause. On page 5, (m) refers to a director responsibility. If he wants to claim some or his associate receiving an advance from a more, we will accept that. society. On page 6, proposed new section 22F (4) contains a definition of "associate". Sir Gordon Chalk: I had ten years in As well as a director's spouse or somebody the wilderness. with whom he cohabits, it includes a partner in any business undertaking and the partner's Mr. BURNS: The way the Government is partner in any business undertaking. going, we will not be so long in the wilder­ I know that we tend to think of the type ness. of thing that has been going on with some Mr. Sinclair's crime is not his involvement of the corporate managers in the bigger in buiiding societies or his past corporate societies in Brisbane. However, cane farm­ sins, but the fact that he has dared finally ers are directors of building societies. to bite the hand of the National-Liberal Because of that, a son who is a partner in Government that fed and protected him. the farm cannot in fact borrow from the The law has protected him. The Government, building society to finance the building of his in its legislative laxity, has been found own home should he marry. guilty of consorting and, I fear to say, con­ However, it gets even worse when it refers spiring in laxity which today threatens the to "a director's employer and a director's savings of Queenslanders in every corner of employee". In country areas, where the the State. number of solicitors and accountants is lim­ ited, many of them participate in the work I suggest that clause 11 has to be amended; of building societies. As I pointed out that we have to do something to ensure that earlier, the locally run building societies in these people are covered by the Bill. I our provincial cities have had among the submit that that is what is really intended best records with our Registrar of Building by the clause. Societies and the best reports of any building societies in the State. The effect of this The CHAIRMAN: Order! I know that a clause is that, if a solicitor is the director number of honourable members wish to of a building society and one of the girls in speak to this clause and I shall protect their his office gets married and she and her right to do so. I have three other amend­ husband-to-be negotiate a joint loan with that ments that have been foreshadowed. I will building society, her employer is immediately process those first and return to the original debarred from being a director. Sometimes clause. in our endeavours to close the gaps we might Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3661 harm people we do not intend to harm. I Mr. GREENWOOD (Ashgrove) (4.37 do not think that was the initial intention of p.m.): I applaud the action of the Minister the legislation. in deleting this clause. The present position Returning to (m) on page 5-will the term is, as the Committee knows, that a man of "in accordance with a special resolution" this age has to be appointed by a special (by the directors of a society) in actual fact resolution. He has to have the vote of cover the type of situation to which I have three-quarters of the members of the building referred? Will the directors, by special reso­ society to receive appointment. This seems lution at a meeting, be able to make allow­ to be a sufficient protection for the public ance for a director's employee in circum­ against people who are handicapped because stances such as I have outlined, thus enabling of age from continuing in office. On the other her to obtain a loan from that particular hand, age by itself should not be a bar. building society? Otherwise employees may There are many people whose experience could be valuable in this as in other be debarred access to a very reliable and businesses. very secure source of lending in order to establish themselves in a family home. I Clause 13, as read, negatived. ask the Minister for more definite clarification of that. Clause 14--Amendment of s. 22H; Power to restrain certain persons from managing Mr. MILLER (Ithaca) (4.34 p.m.): I rise Registered Societies- to speak on this clause, not because I have any objection to it-I believe it strengthens Mr. K . .J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (4.38 the Act, which will in turn protect the p.m.): New subsection (4) which is to be public-but to object to the slanderous attack inserted by clause 14 (c) provides- on Ken Allison in this Chamber by the " ... a person specied in the order from honourable member for Archerfield. I have acting as a director of or being concerned no objection to any member rising in this in the management of, a Registered Society Chamber to bring before it matters that he during such period not exceeding five knows to be factual; but for any member to years after making of the order as is stand in this place and blacken the name specified in the order." of a good citizen of this city on the basis of a rumour that he has heard is in my This provision is long overdue. For a long opinion unforgivable. I hope ·that not only time, many directors of building societies will we ensure that by this Bill we protect have played a game of musical chairs on the public outside but also in the future we the board. Usually when a director obtains will look at protecting the public in this a pecuniary interest in the building society Chamber by introducing legislation to call he resigns from it for three, four, five or such a member before the Bar to give six months. During that time a stooge is reasons why he should attack an honourable appointed to the board; he conveniently man within our community. I know Mr. stands down when the person who is playing Allison personally. musical chairs on the board desires to sit again on the board of the society. Mr. K. J. Hooper: What about Sinclair? I ask the Minister to inform me what Mr. MILLER: I am not talking about Mr. action will be taken against the directors Sinclair. The honourable member mentioned of the Great Australian Permanent Building the name of Ken Allison on the basis of Society-O'Shea, Marsden, Coulson and a rumour that he heard around town. The Meredith-who precipitated the introduction allegation about Mr. Sinclair has been prcved. The honourable member did not of this legislation. I only hope that these provide any proof at all. Without any proof people will not get off scot-free. whatsoever he made an accusation and blackened the name of a person in this city. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for I refute the suggestions put forward by the Works and Housing) (4.39 p.m.): The pro­ honourable member. visions are in line with amendments to other Acts such as the Companies Act. New pro­ I hope that before long this Parliament visions in the Companies Act 1961 to 1975 will have legislation under which a member have also been included in the Bill. These can be called to the Bar to provide proof of enable the registrar to apply to the court for his allegations. Surely members of the an order prohibiting a person from acting public cannot be submitted to such slander­ as a director of a society or being con­ ous attacks without redress. cerned with its management for five years in Clause 11, as amended, agreed to. a previous period of seven years. So that Clause 12, as read, agreed to. answers the honourable member's question. He was similarly concerned about a society Clause 13-Repeal of and new s. 22G; or company that has been so managed Age limit for directors- that it would be wound up or ceased. I think that actually answers the question Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for asked by the Leader of the Opposition Works and Housing) (4.36 p.m.): I oppose because he was speaking more to this the clause. clause than to clause 11. 3662 Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

Clause 14, as read, agreed to. Savings Permanent Building Society. I just want an assurance from the Minister that it Clauses 15 and 16, as read, agreed to. will not be allowed to take place in future. Clause 17-Amendment of s. 23A: Maxi- mum interest rates on loans- Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing) (4.43 p.m.): We have Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for taken precautions. I think I said this in my Works and Housing): I move the following introductory remarks and I think it should be amendment:- very clear that we have taken all the neces­ sary precautions to limit this as much as pos­ "On page 10, omit all words comprising sible. lines 17 and 18." Clause 18, as read, agreed to. Amendment agreed to. Clause 19, as read, agreed to. Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the Oppo­ Clause 20-New ss. 28B and 28C- sition) (4.41 p.m.): We amended the Bill by Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for inserting a new clause after clause 1. Section Works and Housing): I move the following 17, as I understand it, will be included in that amendment:- amendment, so that means it reality we are "On page 13, line 14, after the expression taking it out of this section in the principal '1965-1973' add the words- Act but we are leaving it in the amending Act. 'of the Commonwealth';". Amendment agreed to. I am interested in the retrospectivity clause in relation to paying an extra charge to the Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for building society when a borrower decides to Works and Housing): I move the following pay off his mortgage. I do not agree with further amendment:- that. We hear stories that there is a lot more "On page 13, line 22, after the word book work involved and people should pay. 'mortgagee' insert the words- As I understand it, the charge for book work is part of the total charge that has been levied 'or exercisable by its directors under by the Society. If I am going to pay a its rules'." certain amount of money for 30 years at so Amendment agreed to. much a month, then obviously the society is going to do 30 years' wo_rth of book work. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga~Minister for When I win the Casket and I decide to pay Works and Housing): I move the following off my home-if ever I do win the Casket­ further amendment:- and I turn up with $20,000 and say I want "On page 13, line 47, after the expres­ to pay off the mortgage, I think it is unfair sion '28B' insert the expression- and unreasonable to charge me extra no ', 38A or 38C'." matter what the fee has been reduced to. I Amendment agreed to. understand it is now 0.5 per cent, which could be $100 I have to give the society for Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for book work just because I want to pay off Works and Housing): I move the following the loan. As I understand the system of bor­ further amendment:- rowing money, the person lending me the "On page 13, line 48, after the word money at 8! per cent, lOt per cent, 1 H per 'acts' insert the words- cent or 1 H per cent-whatever the charge­ has already worked out the costs involved. I 'or omissions'." do not see any reason why he should get extra Amendment agreed to. money out of me because I want to pay out the debt. I do not agree with the principle. Hon. N. E. LEE (Y eronga-Minister for I think a man has discharged his debt and I Works and Housing): I move the following do not think he should have to pay any further amendment:- charge other than the discharge of his debt. "On page 14, omit all words comprising I oppose the clause. lines 1 to 10, both inclusive, with a view to inserting in lieu thereof the following Clause 17, as amended, agreed to. words- Clause 18-New ss. 23AA, 23AB and '(b) that any Society that is mort­ 23AC- gagee in relation to the mortgage debt subsequently to the original mortgagee Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (4.42 shown in the instrument of mortgage p.m.): In relation to special loans, I just want has made an advance to the mort­ an assurance from the Minister that building gagor for a purpose other than a societies will not be allowed to make loans purpose specified in section 23, to directors or anybody else for the purpose then notwithstanding those acts or of building nursing homes. As we all know, omissions of that advance, on registra­ this did take place last year or the year tion of the document assigning the before last with the Great Australian Perman­ mortgage debt secured by the instrument ent Building Society, the United Savings of mortgage, the person purchasing Permanent Building Society and the City pursuant to section 28 (2) or acquiring Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3663

pursua_11t to section 28B, 3 8A or 3 8c the to the Contingency Fund and may at mortgage del::lt shall be deemed to have any time, of its own motion, revoke a purchased or acquired a mortgage debt direction so given. that is neither void nor voidable.'" Payment by the Society to the Con­ Amendment agreed to. tingency Fund on or before the four­ teenth day of each calendar month of Clause 20, as amended, agreed to. the amount estimated in respect of that Clauses 21 to 29, both inclusive, as read, Society pursuant to the preceding para­ agreed to. graph shall, for as long as the Com­ Clause 30-Amendment of s. 34C; Paid mittee's direction subsists, be taken to officers to account and deliver up books, be sufficient compliance with the pro­ etc., on demand- visions of such first paragraph until an adjustment is required to be made as Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for prescribed by this subsection. Works and Housing): I move the following At a time selected by the Contingency amendment:- Fund Committee in respect of each "On page 18, line 12, omit the word- Society in relation to which a direction 'or'." of the Committee subsists an adjustment shall be made as respects the estimated Amendment agreed to. amount paid by a Society in accordance Clause 30, as amended, agreed to. with the direction as follows- (a) if the estimated amount so paid Clauses 31 to 34, both inclusive, as read, over the period concerned is less than agreed to. the amount that would have been Clause 35-Repeal of and new ss. 36, payable by the Society pursuant to 36A-36V- this subsection over that period had the Committee's direction not been Hon. N. E. LEE ('\' eronga-Minister for given the Committee, by its precept Works and Housing): I move the following directed to the Society, shall require amendment:- the Society to pay to the Contingency "On page 24, omit all words comprising Fund within the time specified therein lines 3 to 17, both inclusive, with a view the difference between those amounts;· to inserting in lieu thereof the following (b) if the estimated amount so paid words- over the period concerned exceeds the '(2) Save where permitted by direction amount that would have been payable of the Contingency Fund Committee by the Society pursuant to this sub­ issued pursuant to this subsection, on section over that period had the or before the fourteenth day of each Committee's direction not been given calendar month each Permanent Society the Committee shall repay to the is required to pay to the Contingency Society the difference between those Fund an amount calculated at a rate of amounts as soon as practicable. 0.25 per centum per annum (or such Subsections (7), (11) and (12) shall other rate as is fixed by Order in Coun­ apply in respect of payments required cil) on the daily balances of the fund of to be made under a precept issued pur­ the Society that in the calendar month suant to this subsection as they apply immediately preceding the calendar to contributions to be paid by Societies month in which falls the date on which under this section.' " payment is required to be made is represented by the aggregate of- Amendment agreed to. (a) payments, subscriptions and contributions made, or deemed to Hon. N. E. LEE (Y eronga-Minister for have been made, by its members in Works and Housing): I move the following respect of shares issued by the further amendment:- Society; and "On page 24, line 30, after the word (b) deposits and loans (excluding 'loans' insert the words- such loans as are prescribed) per­ mitted under section 26 and received '(excluding such loans as are pre­ by the Society. scribed)';" Upon representations made by a Amendment agreed to. Society to the Contingency Fund Com­ mittee, the Committee, if it considers Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for the case justifies it, may direct in Works and Housing): I move the following writing that the Society shall pay on or further amendment:- before the fourteenth day of each calendar month an amount estimated "On page 24, line 36, omit the words­ by the Committee in lieu of the amount 'amount of that'." prescribed by the preceding paragraph as the amount to be paid by the Society Amendment agreed to. 3664 Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing): I move the following Works and Housing): I move the following further amendment:- further amendment:- "On page 24, line 41, insert after the "On page 31, line 45, insert after .the word 'loans' the words- words 'from the' the word- '(excluding such loans as are pre­ 'Contingency'." scribed)'." Amendment agreed to. Amendment agreed to. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (4.51 Works and Housing): I move the following p.m.): The provision that an auditor or a further amendment:- chartered accountant work in accordance "On page 24, line 50, omit the words­ with the provisions laid down in the latest 'amount of that'." edition of the Members' Handbook published by the Australian Society of Accountants or Amendment agreed to. the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Hon. N. E. LEE (Y eronga-Minister for Australia is a good one. I did suggest that Works and Housing): I move the following to the Minister about September last year. further amendment:- He told me he would give consideration to the matter. I am very pleased to see that that "On page 25, line 1, insert after the provision has been inserted. If these generally word 'loans' the words- accepted principles had been accepted when '(excluding such loans as are pre­ I raised them last year, the United Savings scribed)'." Permanent Building Society would not have Amendment agreed to. been prostituted the way it has been. I ask the Minister what action will be instituted Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for against all of the directors of that society and Works and Housing): I move the following the Great Australian Permanent Building further amendment:- Society. Is it proposed to allow those white­ "On page 25, line 7, omit the words­ collar criminals to get off scot-free? 'amount of that'." Amendment agreed to. Mr. CASEY (Mackay} (4.52 p.m.): I wish to refer to one specific part of clause 35. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for It appears at page 27 of the Bill and deals Works and Housing): I move the following with the setting up of the Contingency Fund further amendment:- Committee. I have made several references "On page 25, line 13, insert after the so far during the debate to small building word 'loans' the words- societies. The Contingency Fund Committee '(excluding such loans as are pre­ consists of the registrar, two persons nom­ scribed)'." inated by the Minister, two persons selected Amendment agreed to. by the Minister from a panel of at least four names furnished to him by the Associa­ Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for tion of Permanent Building Societies of Works and Housing): I move the following Queensland Limited, and so on. I now again further amendment:- make the plea to the Minister that in his "On page 25, line 26, insert after the consideration of the list of names he ensure word 'loans' the words- that the Association of Permanent Building '(excluding such loans as are pre­ Societies of Queensland Limited puts forward scribed)'." at least one name of a person representative Amendment agreed to. ef the smaller building societies. Hon. N. E. LEE (Y eronga-Minister for Sir Gonion Chalk: That has been agreed. Works and Housing): I move the following further amendment:- Mr. CASEY: I am very pleased to hear "On page 25, lines 32 and 33, omit the that. Many of the directors of small building words- societies have far greater experience-and ' amount of that'." good clean experience-in building society operations in Queensland than some of those Amendment agreed to. who have come in in more recent years. I Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for am very happy to have the assurance that that Works and Housing): I move the following will be done. The smaller building societies further amendment:- are looking for it. "On page 25, line 38, insert after the Clause 35, as amended, agreed to. word 'loans' the words- '(exclud;ng such loans as are pre­ Clauses 36 to 38, both inclusive, as read, scribed)'." agreed to. Amendment agreed to. Insertion of new clause- Building Societies Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3665

Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for office or the rules of such a Society Works and Housing): I move the following whether specified by him or made by amendment- the Society. "On page 38, insert after line 3 the (5) A rule specified by the Registrar following clause:- as a rule of a Society- '39. New s. 37 AF. The Principal (a) shall not be amended or revoked save as is prescribed by subsection ( 4); Act is amended by inserting after sec­ tion 37AE the following section:- (b) if it is inconsistent with any other rule of the Society, shall pre­ "37AF. Additional powers of Reg­ vail and the other rule shall to the istrar when appointing directors. (1) extent of the inconsistency be invalid; This section applies notwithstanding any other provision of this Act or (c) shall have and be given the the rules of the Registered Society in same evidentiary value as is by this Act accorded copies of the rules of respect of which the Registrar seeks the Society."'" to exercise the powers and authorities conferred on him by this section. Amendment agreed to. {2) Where the Registrar appoints dir­ New clause 39, as read, agreed ·to. ectors of a Society pursuant to section Clauses 39 and 40, as read, agreed to. 37AD (5) he may, with the approval of Clause 41-New ss. 42A-42F- the Minister first had and obtained, by instrument in writing- Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the Oppo­ (a) specify a time for which this sition) (4.56 p.m.): I do not believe that the section is to apply in respect of ·the punishment in connection with the words Society; "falsities, destroys ... records ... or makes (b) specify the terms and conditions ... any false or fraudulent entry ... with on which the directors so appointed or intent to defraud or deceive any person" is any of them shall hold office; severe enough. I am amazed at the way in which a young lad who steals an ice-cream {c) specify rules to be the rules of or commits a misdemeanour is not allowed .the Society or, as the Registrar to be employed in, say, the Railway Depart­ specifies, part of the rules of the ment or the Public Service, and thus has his Society. whole life adversely affected, yet the shady (3) For the time specified by the Reg­ criminals get off with bonds. Why is it that istrar pursuant to subsection (2) or for only the blue-collar criminals end up in that time as extended or reduced by prison? We have before us proof of the him- corporate crimes that have been committed (a) this section shall apply in respect over the past few weeks by directors of of the Society of which he has certain societies. We should ensure that the appointed directors; legislation covers people who rob and deceive. They should be imprisoned. A fine (b) the Registrar may remove and is not adequate. If I steal a colour T.V. set appoint the directors of the Society tonight from someone's home I will probably from time to time; end up in gaol. If I did it twice I would (c) the terms and conditions speci­ have imposed on me the toughest penalty fied pursuant to that subsection or allowed by Jaw. But if some shady, sinister those terms and conditions as amended character who is permitted to be a director by him shall be the ·terms and con­ of a building society fleeces an elderly couple ditions on which the directors of the of their savings not once or twice but three Society or any one or more of them, or more times the Minister is satisfied with as specified by the Registrar, shall hold a fine. We should be tougher than ·that and office; stamp out the so-called white-collar criminals (d) the rules specified pursuant .to who burgle the people's pockets. A fine of that subsection or those rules as $5,000 or a term of two years imprisonment amended by him shall be the rules or, is not enough. as specified by the Registrar, part of If action had not been taken to set up the the rules of the Society. Contingency Fund a Jot of people would (4) The Registrar may at any time, have lost their life savings or their super­ with the approval of the Minister first annuation. The punishment should be had and obtained, by instrument in tougher. We should make certain that people writing- who engage in trickery and slick salesman­ ship to defraud the ordinary fellow are not (a) extend the time for which this allowed to get away with it. White-collar section is to apply in respect of a criminals should be hit hard. We should Society; ensure that people will not be robbed by slick (b) amend, by revoking, altering or salesmen with slippery tongues. It is wrong adding to, the terms and conditions that a blue-collar criminal who commits a on which the directors of a Society to misdemeanour ends up in gaol whereas the which this section applies shall hold white-collar criminal only pays a fine. 3666 Drugs Standard [13 APRIL 1976] Adopting Bill

Clause 41, as read, agreed to. The Commonwealth Department of Health Clauses 42 to 44, both inclusive, as read, from time to time issues therapeutic goods agreed to. orders for drugs utilising standards estab­ Clause 45-Amendment of s. 44; Inspect­ lished by the National Biological Standards ion, etc. of documents- Laboratory. Whilst the quality of the drug would be beyond doubt, it could be that it Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for would not comply with the British Phar­ Works and Housing): I move the following macopoeia standard and, as such, a drug amendment- manufactured in Australia and acceptable "On page 44, line 25, omit the expression in all other States would be considered '36D (9)' with a view to inserting in lieu adulterated in Queensland. thereof the expression '36D (10)'." Amendment agreed to. This matter was referred to the Solicitor­ Clause 45, as amended, agreed to. General for examination and he has advised that the existing provision of the Health Clause 46, and schedule, as read, agreed to. Act 1937-1975 does not clearly authorise the Queensland Minister for Health to modify Bill reported, with amendments. British Pharmacopoeia standards. A clause THIRD READING in this Bill will put beyond doubt this Bill, on motion of Mr. Lee, by leave, authority to modify, by order in writing, read a third time. the standard for any drug and also the Minister's authority to determine standards DRUGS STANDARD ADOPTING BILL and to order tests.

INITIATION IN COMMITTEE In conclusion I would remind honourable members that this Bill seeks only to update (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. existing legislation and to clarify the intent Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) of such legislation. Hon. L. R. EDWARDS (Ipswich-Minister for Health) (5.2 p.m.): I move- I commend the motion to the Committee. "That a Bill be introduced to amend the law relating to the adoption of the British Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the Pharmacopoeia in Queensland and to pro­ Opposition) (5.5 p.m.): As the Minister sug­ vide for the adoption of the British Phar­ gests, the Bill is designed only to update maceutical Codex and the British Veter­ existing legislation and to clarify the inten­ inary Codex in Queensland, and for other tion of the legislation. The Opposition, purposes." obviously, has no objection to the Bill itself. At present, a provision of the Health Act When I saw the Bill on the Business Paper 1957-1975 establishes the standards laid and realised that I would have to speak to down in the British Pharmacopoeia as the it, I went to the library and also rang up standard for drugs sold in Queensland, such my mate, who is a chemist, to find out standard having been adopted by the British what the British Pharmacopoeia was. He Pharmacopoeia Adopting Act 1898. suggested to me that many pharmacists will As would be expected with the passing of be happy with this alteration because, as the time, the British Pharmacopoeia Adopting pharmacopoeia was the official handbook, Act 1898 is outdated, the Act referring they had to buy it, but the codex was more to the British Pharmacopoeia published by valuable to them in many ways. The pharma­ the General Council of Medical Education copoeia was sterile and only gave a descrip­ and Registration of the United Kingdom. tion of the drug and some other details. He The present British Pharmacopoeia is pub­ said that the codex gives usages and actions lished on the recommendation of the Medi­ cines Commission pursuant to the Medicines of drugs and is more valuable to anyone Act 1968 of the United Kingdom. wanting to learn a little more about drugs than the standards contained in the British The British Pharmacopoeia published on ·Pharmacopoeia. the recommendation of the Medicines Com­ mission, together with the British Pharma­ If we are placed in the position where the ceutical Codex and British Veterinary Codex Commonwealth Department of Health from which are published by direction of the time to time is issuing therapeutic goods Council of the Pharmaceutical Society of orders for drugs utilising standards estab­ Great Britain, and which apply to the phar­ lished by the National Biological Standards maceutical manufacturing industry and the Laboratory and where a drug manufactured supply of drugs for use in veterinary ser­ vices, will still provide the basic standards in Australia and acceptable in all other States for drugs in Queensland. Provision is made would be considered adulterated in Queens­ in this Bill therefore for adoption of the land as it does not comply with the British British Pharmacopoeia and the two codices. Pharmacopoeia standard, I think it is a good Health Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3667 idea to make it very clear that the Minister the Drugs Standard Adopting Act 1976 in is authorised to modify the British Pharma­ lieu of the British Pharmacopoeia Adopting copoeia. On behalf of the Opposition, I Act, 1898. welcome the Bill. This Bill is in the main of a machinery Motion (Dr. Edwards) agreed to. nature seeking to complement the existing Resolution reported. provisions of the Health Act 1937-1975. I commend the motion to the Committee. FIRST READING Bill presented and, on motion of Dr. Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the Edwards, read a first time. Opposition) (5.10 p.m.): The misuse of drugs and drug dependence are social prob­ lems that are relatively new to people in HEALTH ACT AMENDMENT BILL Queensland. It has always seemed to be our policy under the Health Act to treat the INITIATION IN COMMITTEE pusher of dangerous drugs with greater (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. severity than the consumer. I do not dis­ Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) agree with that provision. We should try to rehabilitate drug offenders and to cut off Hon. L. R. EDWARDS (Ipswich-Minister the supply from those people by dealing for Health) (5.10 p.m.): I move- with those who want to make a living out "That a Bill be introduced to amend of dealing in drugs. My attitude is that the Health Act 1937-1975 in certain the Health Act should work along the lines particulars." that prevention is better than cure. We should try to prevent people from getting the I have been concerned for some time that drugs in the first place. penalties for drug offences, in certain instances, were inadequate and I sought I should like to raise two points that I advice through the Honourable the Minister think I raised in 1972. Section 130 of the for Justice and Attorney-General as to a Health Act provides that possession of a means to ensure that penalties rendered were dangero11s drug or prohibited plant is an commensurate with the crime. offence. As in all criminal cases, the prose­ cution has the onus of proving beyond a Advice was furnished by the Solicitor­ reasonable doubt that the accused was in General that the Attorney-General, in such possession of the drug. circumstances, should have the right of appeal against punishment imposed, where One of the subsections of section 130 this action is considered necessary, and that reverses the onus of proof in certain circum­ the appropriate tribunal to hear any appeal stances, that is, if a dangerous drug was at and review a sentence is the Court of the material time upon the premises occupied Criminal Appeal. or under the control of the accused unless he shows that he neither knew or At present the Health Act 1937-1975 pro­ had reason to suspect that the drug was on vides that drug offences can be prosecuted the premises. The effect is that once the on indictment or that action can be taken prosecution establishes that the drug is on in summary proceedings. In the event of the premises of the accused, the onus rests a conviction in summary proceedings, the with him to prove that he did not have person convicted has the option of appeal to ownership of the drug. the District Court or Full Court against I have been told by police officers of a sentence. It is considered that any appeal case in which a young fellow was crooked against sentence by a person convicted on his father and hid drugs in the toilet in should be, as with an appeal by the Crown, the family home. He then rang the police to the Court of Criminal Appeal. Provision and told them to go to such-and-such a has been made in this Bill to give effect to house and look in the toilet. When the the recommendations of the Solicitor-General police officers got there, sure enough there in this regard. were drugs in the toilet. The man was then The Solicitor-General has also advised that placed in the position of having to defend evidentiary problems could arise in cases himself against a charge of being in pos­ dealing with drugs or poisons where the session of dangerous drugs. prosecution sought to rely on records, labels That reverses the whole idea of British or markings, in the absence of analysis, to justice. It should be the prosecution that has establish the nature of substances. An to prove the case. If it is obvious that a amendment contained in this Bill will enable man has for sale great stocks of drugs in a court to presume that, if a substance bears his home, that is a different situation. I an inscription required under legislation or return to my original submission that we if a container is labelled according to legis­ should treat the pusher, and not the user, as lation, that substance or article is of the the main criminal. If it is left as it is now, nature or substance as indicated on the an unfair onus of proof is placed on the inscription or label. owner of the property. I can imagine a I have previously introduced a Bill for the group of young people congregating at a Drugs Standard Adopting Act 1976. A clause party. If drugs were found, the accused contained in this Bill will amend an existing would have to prove his innocence by estab­ provision of the Health Act to relate it to lishing that the existence of the drugs on 3668 Harbours Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

his premises resulted from the indiscretion of provisions are considered necessary and desir­ an unknown member of the gathering in able for the more effective working of har­ bringing them into his home. If one is bour boards in this State. Several of the having a party involving a large group of amendments are identical with amendments young people, it would not be practicable to made to the Local Government Act in recent search everybody coming into one's house. years in respect of local authorities. I But if the police do raid the premises, will now proceed to outline the main pro­ especially where a group of young people visions contained in the Bill. are probably making a lot of noise, there is The Bill provides for the repeal of those a possibility of drugs being discovered on sections of the Act relating to the Queens­ the premises and one is placed in a very land Harbours Trust. Since 1941, the Cor­ difficult situation. poration of the Treasurer of Queensland has I have waited for some time hoping that been the harbour authority for all harbours section 130J would be repealed or, if not in Queensland for which there is no harbour repealed, at least reviewed and brought up-to­ board. The Harbour Boards Act Amendment date. After listening to the Minister's intro­ Act of 1952 introduced by the previous Gov­ ductory remarks, I can see no objection from ernment reconstituted the Corporation of the the Opposition to the Bill. I will read it Treasurer of Queensland as a body corporate with some interest when it is printed. under the name of the Queensland Harbours Trust and consisting of five members. The Hon. L. R. EDWARDS (Ipswich-Minister Act provided that such reconstitution take for Health) (5.16 p.m.), in reply: I appre­ effect from a day fixed by proclamation. ciate the comments made by the Leader of However, the proclamation to bring the the Opposition. I think the matter he referred Queensland Harbours Trust into existence has to is covered by a section that was added never been issued. to the Act in 1971, but I would have to It is obvious from statements made in check that with the Parliamentary Drafts­ Parliament by the Treasurer of the day man. Section 130J reads- (Mr. Walsh) when presenting the Bill setting "(b) proof that a dangerous drug was up the Queensland Harbours Trust that the at the material time upon premises occupied purpose in creating the trust was for by or under the control of any person is all harbours in Queensland, including proof that the drug was then in his pos­ those under the control of harbour session unless he shows that he then neither boards, to be under the control of the knew nor had reason to suspect that the harbours trust. The legislation for the con­ drug was upon the premises;" stitution of the Queensland Harbours Trust was passed 24 years ago, and time has shown Mr. Burns: It is a bit hard to show, that there is no necessity for the concept of isn't it? If police suspect a person of being a Queensland Harbours Trust. a drug offender and they find a drug there, naturally he will say, "I didn't know it was The present system of harbours being under there." The onus of proof is still on him. the control of th€ harbour boards or the Corporation of the Treasurer of Queensland Dr. EDWARDS: I will be happy to take works quite satisfactorily. The corporation that up with the Parliamentary Draftsman. is the Minister administering the Harbours Act, and the corporation's functions are Motion (Dr. Edwards) agreed to. carried out by the Minister and officers of Resolution reported. the Department of Harbours and Marine. The major multi-user ports (except the FIRST READING Port of Brisbane) are under the control of Bill presented and, on motion of Dr. harbour boards, and single-user ports and Edwards, read a first time. minor multi-user ports are under the control of the corporation. The setting up of a Port of Brisbane Authority, which the Government proposes, will mean that all major multi-user HARBOURS ACT AMENDMENT ports will be under the control of non­ BILL Governmental bodies.

INITIATION IN COMMITTEE The Bill also provides for the alteration of the name of the corporation to the Harbours (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. Corporation of Queensland. Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) The Bill removes a provision of the Act Hon. R. E. CAMM (Whitsunday-Acting which disqualifies a person who enters into Minister for Tourism and Marine Services) certain types of financial transactions with a (5.19 p.m.): I move- harbour board from being or continuing to "That a Bill be introduced to amend be a member of that harbour board. The the Harbours Act 1955-1972 in certain provision which is to be removed disqualifies particulars." from membership any member who is con­ cerned or participates in the profit of a A number of provisions contained in the Bill contract with the harbour board except in follow requests received from the Queens­ certain circumstances. The same provisions land Harbour Boards' Association and other contained in the Local Government Act in Harbours Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3669

respect of members of local authorities were The next provision in the Bill relates to the removed by the Local Government Act calling of tenders and quotations by a harbour Amendment Act of 1971. board. The present law provides that a Under an existing provision of the Act harbour board shall not, except in cases of which is to be retained, and which was also emergency, enter into any contract for the retained in the Local Government Act, a execution of any work or the furnishing of member of a harbour board who has a any goods or materials to an amount exceed­ pecuniary interest in a contract with the ing $500 but not exceeding $2,000 without harbour board, and who is present at a calling quotations. Tenders must be called meeting at which the contract is the subject where the amount involved exceeds $2,000. of consideration, is required to disclose his The harbour board is also empowered to interest and refrain from taking part in the take security for the due performance of any discussion of or voting on any question contract to an amount exceeding $2,000. The regarding that contract. This provision Bill provides that these limits may in future be protects the interests of the public in matters fixed by Order in Council. of this nature. The next provision in the Bill relates to the The Bill also extends the provisions in the granting by a harbour board to persons or Act relating to the payment of fees and companies by way of a lease, a licence or a expenses to members of harbour boards. At permit, the right to use, occupy and develop present, harbour board members are paid lands in or adjacent to the harbour. At pre­ such fees as may be fixed by the board's sent, the powers of a harbour board to issue by-laws for attending board meetings, com­ a lease or licence of its lands are contained mittee meetings and authorised inspections in separate sections of the Act, and the Bill and the expenses incurred in attending such consolidates these provisions into one section. meetings and inspections. The Bill extends The Bill also reduces the maximum term of this provision to include the payment of fees a harbour board lease from 99 to 75 years to members for attendance at deputations and and a licence from 14 to 10 years. conferences where attendance is authorised The Bill empowers a harbour board to issue by the board, and the expenses so incurred, permits to persons for the use and occupation and allows these fees to be fixed by resolution of land for the construction of harbour works of the board. These principles were inserted and other works and for the placement of in the Local Government Act in 1963 in buoy moorings. The land over which a har­ respect of members of a local authority. bour board will be empowered to issue a The Bill authorises a harbour board to permit will not only be land vested in or enter into contracts for the insurance of any otherwise held by a harbour board but relate member of ,the harbour board against injury to the use and occupation of a part of the arising out of or in the course of the perfor­ foreshore or of any other tidal land or tidal mance of the duties of his office. A local water in the harbour and any vacant Crown authority is empowered under the Local land contiguous to the foreshore irrespective Government Act similarly to insure its of whether those lands are actually vested in members. or otherwise held by the board. The next provision in the Bill relates to the The Bill provides that a permit shall be engagement and dismissal of employees of issued for a maximum period of two years, harbour boards. Under the existing law, which could be renewed. It is envisaged that only the harbour board itself may appoint a harbour board will issue these permits only or dismiss employees; the chairman and any for private jetties, boat ramps, moorings and officer appointed by the board's by-Jaw have other minor structures. the power to suspend an employee. In The Bill contains a provision that if a accordance with normal business practice, it harbour board refuses an application for a is reasonable that the chairman and senior permit or the renewal of a permit, the appli­ officers and employees of a harbour board cant may renew his application to the Minis­ should have the power to appoint and dismiss ter, who, if he approves the application, shall employees, and the Bill empowers a harbour direct the harbour board to grant or renew the board to authorise this by resolution. The permit. board, of course, will continue to have these powers. The Bill also contains a provision relating to the sale of freehold land owned by a The next provision in the Bill allows a harbour board. Under the present law a harbour board to appoint employees of the harbour board cannot sell land owned by it in Crown to perform the functions and duties fee simple and designated under the Act as of officers of the board. Such appointment "harbour lands" without the approval of the may only be made with the approval of the Governor in Council, but it may sell land permanent head of the department concerned designated as "industrial lands" without any and will allow, for example, officers of the such approval. Industrial lands are those lands Boating and Fisheries Patrol to assist in the which I might describe as back-up lands policing on behalf of the harbour board where industries are located or planned to certain by-laws made by the board, such as be located under a lease from the harbour the control of houseboats in its harbour or board. These industries, generally speaking, use the pollution of its waters. the harbour for the export or import of theil 3670 Harbours Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill products, and harbour boards often obtain the empowered to request the Minister to review fee simple of industrial lands. Industrial lands at any time the designation of any land as owned by harbour boards are strategically harbour lands, and the Bill provides accord­ located in relation to the harbour and are ingly. precious and in short supply. The lands are The Bill also allows a fee to be fixed in an essential factor in the proper development respect of applications made for the approval of most harbours, and for this reason it is by the Governor in Council of plans of proposed that their sale also be subject to works below high-water mark. The depart­ Governor in Council approval. ment incurs considerable expenditure in The next provision contained in the Bill examining such plans and carrying out on­ relates to the shipping and unshipping of site engineering inspections prior to and after goods. The law at present provides that, if construction and the Bill allows regulations any goods unloaded from a vessel are in an to be made fixing application fees and pre­ offensive or dangerous condition, the chairman scribing procedures to be followed by appli­ of the board may cause notice in writing to cants. The penalty for construction of works be served on the owner or consignee to on tidal lands without the approval of the remove such goods within 24 hours. At pre­ Governor in Council is increased from $1,000 sent the Act refers only to goods unloaded to $5,000. from a vessel, and the Bill widens this pro­ The next provision in the Bill relates to vision to include goods awaiting shipment. the reclamation of land below high-water The next provision in the Bill relates to mark and requires applicants for a special the abandonment of vessels, vehicles and Act or an Order in Council authorising the other things on land owned by a harbour reclamation to advertise the proposed reclam­ board. A harbour board has power at ation in the Gazette and in a newspaper cir­ present under the Act to take action in culating in the locaJi,ty for four consecutive respect of vessels abandoned in its harbour. weeks. At the present time, only local However, where these vessels are left aband­ authorities are required to publicly advertise oned on land above high-water mark owned reclamation proposals, and the Bill requires by the board, there is no power to take action that all applications for reclamation of land in respect of the abandoned vessel. The same under the Harbours Act be so advertised. applies to abandoned vehicles. The Bill The provisions will accordingly have applica­ empowers a harbour board to sell or dis­ tion to reclamations by harbour boards. pose of vessels, vehicles or other things The Bill provides that any person who abandoned on its lands after carrying out feels aggrieved by the proposed reclamation certain steps, such as notifying the owner may lodge an objection with the Land Court. (if known) and inserting a notice in a news­ The Land Court hears and determines any paper. The procedural steps contained in the objection lodged and is required to make Bill follow the procedure set down in the recommendations to the Governor in Council Traffic Act to be complied with by the local as to the granting or refusal of the applica­ authorities in respect of vehicles abandoned tion to reclaim. on roads. - The next provision in the Bill extends the A new provision i~ inserted by the Bill by-law-making powers of a harbour board. making it an offence to dump litter on any The power to make by-laws in relation to harbour board land. harbour works is at present limited to harbour works vested in or belonging to the The next provision in the Bill exempts harbour board, or under its control or man­ harbour lands held by a harbour board from agement. Circumstances do arise where it is the payment of local authority rates, unless desirable that a harbour board be in a position such lands are held or used by a person to control the operation and use of private other than the harbour board. Under the harbour works in the public interest. The Local Government Act, land actually in use . Bill empowers a harbour board to make by­ by a harbour board for its own purposes is laws regulating and controlling the use of exempt from rating. Where the harbour such harbour works in order to secure the board leases any of its lands, the lessees safety of shipping within the harbour or the pay the rates. However, where land is held interests of public health, safety or comfort. by the harbour board for future use the land is rateable under the existing law. The The Bill also allows by-laws made by Queensland Harbour Boards' AssociMion has harbour boards under the Act to refer to submitted that rating exemption should be standard rules or codes prepared by recog­ extended to include lands held by a harbour nised associations. This will permit the board for future use where such lands are saving of considerable time and expense in designated pursuant to the Harbours Act as drafting by-laws and mirrors similar provis­ "harbour lands". Industrial lands held by a ions in the Queensland Marine Act. The harbour board for future use will continue Bill increases the maximum penalty for a to be rateable, and the total amount of rates breach of harbour board by-laws from $200 involved by extending exemption to harbour to $5,000. lands held for future use is estimated at less The various penalties under the Act have than $10,000 a year. The Local Govern­ not been revised since 1955 and the Bill ment Association has no objection to the increases several penalties for offences proposal, provided a local authority is against the Act. Harbours Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3671

The Bill requires the Harbours Corpora­ (3) Damaging navigation lights, buoys tion to give notice in a newspaper of its and beacons-the penalty is increased from proposed by-laws and stating that the by-laws $400 to $5,000. are open to inspection. This requirement has (4) Damaging lights on wharves, docks always applied to by-laws made by a and sheds-the penalty is increased from harbour board. $100 to $5,000. The next provision in the Bill relates to (5) The general penalty for offences the establishment and keeping of funds by a against the Act is increased from $300 to harbour board. The Act at present requires $5,000. that a harbour board establish and keep The next provision in the Bill provides that a harbour fund, a trust fund, and a loan any proceedings instituted by way of com­ fund. The Act does not at present permit plaint for offences against the Act, other the creation of other funds such as an asset than proceedings of a harbour board, may replacement and improvement fund. The be instituted by the director of the Depart­ principle of establishing such a fund is good ment of Harbours and Marine or by a person business practice and the Bill permits a authorised by the Minister or the director. harbour board to establish additional funds The Bill inserts additional provisions in the as may be prescribed by regulations. Act similar to those contained in the Queens­ The next provision in_ the Bill authorises land Marine Act in relation to the facilita­ a harbour board to invest moneys on a long­ tion of proof in court proceedings for term basis in traditionally safe securities offences against the Act. mentioned in the Bill. This provision follows The next provision in the Bill empowers a request received from the Harbour Boards' a harbour board to serve legal processes on Association. Under the existing law a the agent of the owner of a vessel as an harbour board may invest moneys which are alternative to service on the owner or the temporarily surplus in any of its funds with master of the vessel. The same provisions an approved dealer in the short-term money were inserted in the Pollution of Waters by market. Oil Act of 1972 in respect of offences The Bill contains minor consequential against that Act. The Bill also authorises provisions which have the support of the a harbour board to apply to the Supreme Auditor-General and which relate to the Court for an injunction restraining a person annual budget and accounts of a harbour from continuing to contravene a harbour board. board by-law. At present the person con­ The next provision in the Bill relates to cerned must have been actually convicted of the audit of the books and accounts of a the offence before a restraining injunction harbour board. At present, the Minister, on may be applied for by the harbour board. the recommendation of the Auditor-General, The next provision in the Bill gives the appoints the auditors and the Bill provides right to officers and employees of the Crown for the Auditor-General to make these or a harbour board to enter upon land, appointments. harbour works and trading vessels. The next provision in the Bill relates to The Bill also sets out the functions and the f.xing of the various dues and charges powers of the Harbours Corporation of levied bv a harbour board. These dues and Queensland. In addition to its present func­ charges -are required to be fixed at present tions as a harbour authority under the Act, by by-Jaws made by the board. The charges the Bill authorises the corporation to under­ levied by a harbour board for services such take the following works and services:- as hire of plant and the supply of power (1) The design, supervision and con­ and water to shipping have to be reviewed struction of harbour works on behalf of a frequently to keep pace with rising costs and harbour board. may only be brought into force by by-laws, (2) The provision of small-craft facili­ and the Bill provides that these service ties. charges may be fixed by by-law or by resolution of the board. (3) The provision of coastal engineering services including beach protection It is not proposed to disturb the existing research, surveys, design work, supervision requirement for the principal dues and and construction of works, providing for charges levied by a harbour board to be maritime safety, shark meshing and fixed by by-law. A local authority has power dredging. under the Local Government Act to fix comparable minor charges by its resolution. Mr. Houston: The board has to have authority? Is that the idea? The Bill increases the penalties for the following offences against the Act:- Mr. CAMM: Yes. (1) Depositing refuse into tidal waters (4) The carrying out of research for -the penalty is increased from $200 to harbour boards and local authorities and $5,000. permitting the use of its research facilities (2) Non-compliance with a notice from to any person. the harbour board prohibiting the discharge These functions are already carried out by of refuse into a harbour-the penalty is the corporation or the Department of Har­ increased from $200 to $10,000. bours and Marine and the Bill expressly 3672 Harbours Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

authorises the corporation as a body cor­ between the two authorities. I assume that porate to carry out these functions and enter the Minister's use of the words "reference into contracts and agreements with harbour to local authorities" would be in that con­ boards, local authorities and persons for the text rather than in the context of decisions carrying out of the works and services. The made that cannot be appealed against. I Bill confers on the corporation the necessary assume, too, that the Minister for Marine and usual type of powers for the acquiring Services will still be the channel through of land, the issuing of leases, licenses, or which an appeal may be lodged by a person permits to occupy its lands, the power to who feels aggrieved. borrow and the type of funds to be kept by the corporation. Many of the matters referred to by the Minister are of an administrative nature. He I would like to summarise the Bill by say­ suggested that some penalties have been ing that most of the provisions are directed increased. They have in fact been increased towards providing a more streamlined from $100 to $5,000, which is no mean approach in the a,dministration of the Act increase in anybody's language. Perhaps the and in the management of ports under the Minister could indicate whether or not there control of the Department of Harbours and has been a breakdown in the area of destruc­ Marine and the various harbour boards. tion of harbour board property. No-one I commend the motion to the Committee. wants to take any action that would endanger lives at sea because as time passes more Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (5.41 p.m.): and more people are using our waterways, After listening to the Minister's introduction, bays, harbours, rivers and even the open sea. I think all honourable members would agree Many of them are using boats of various that it was rather hard to follow in detail sizes for pleasure-certainly much more than the various facets he covered. From a quick was the case a few years ago. check, I would think that about 30 amend­ Unfortunately, perhaps, we get on our ments are contemplated. Naturally, at this waterways more and more people who lack stage the Opposition will not be expressing boating experience in certain conditions. its policy for or against the items separately. Means of indicating channels and points of The main tone of the Minister's introduc­ danger are therefore most important to the tion was, first of all, to eliminate from our public as a whole, so naturally I support the legislation the Queensland Harbour Trust, tightening of laws to make sure that they basically because it was never persevered are protected and that anyone who damages with. There could be many reasons for that. them will be dealt with. On the other hand, The Minister said that the enabling legis­ we must not throw the penalties out of lation was introduced in 1955. The change relationship with those for other offences. The of Government in 1957 could have been Minister indicated that the penalty has been the main reason for the attitude that has increased from a maximum of $100 to a been taken. \Vhen the Government decided maximum of $5,000. to give harbour boards more power, the While speaking about more people using concept of one authority was certainly con­ small boats, I notice a report that mooring trary to that decision. I think I am right fees could be increased substantially. I hope in my interpretation that the Bill will cer­ that that report is incorrect. Although it is tainly give harbour boards more power and right to say that the people who use the water greater flexibility within the charter that will should pay something towards the upkeep and be laid down in the legislation. the safety of their moorings, I do not think The Minister kept referring to various con­ it is correct to compare them with the ditions and the creation of by-laws for the motorist who wants to store his car in a operation of harbour boards to bring them public car park day in and day out. That in line with local authorities. That has to comparison is well off the track because in be watched carefully. After all, a local certain localities a boat-owner, because of authority is an elected body. It is subject to the size of his boat, could not very well put it into his private garage even if he election by franchise, just as is State Par­ wanted to. The place where a boat is moored liament. If it makes decisions that the is therefore very important. I do not think people do not consider to be in their best that we should price owners out of the interests, there is an opportunity every three right to enjoy this great form of recreation years for the voters to express their opinion that is so popular. If there is any truth in of the elected representatives through the that report, I suggest that the increases be ballot-box. On the other hand, members of squashed immediately and that the Govern­ harbour boards are not elected. They are ment take another look at the matter. appointed by either the Government or the local authority serviced by the board. There I think the Minister indicated that one of is therefore a slight but very important dif­ the provisions of the Bill gives harbour ference between the methods of composition boards the right to handle their own financial of harbour boards and local authorities. affairs much more than they can at present. This could be a good move because the local Of course, once a board has made a people could know best the requirements of decision it is able to supervise efficiently any their own areas. However, we must watch work carried out. There is that parallel that we do not create an imbalance where Harbours Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3673

one harbour board tries to compete with of the Treasurer will be changed in accord­ another and throws the burden of paying ance with the amendments that have been onto those who use the harbour. That must put forward. This, too, is probably needed be avoided. I take it that the whole matter because again its whole purpose has altered will be co-ordinated through the department considerably since the time it was first so that these things are covered. included in the Act together with the Queensland Harbours Trust. I agree that The provision for the borrowing of money there is no further need for that trust, but to carry out construction, design or any at the time it was introduced there were other matters required for the development a number of declining ports in Queensland. of a harbour, could be of advantage if it is In fact, the Corporation of the Treasurer used wisely. The whole matter will hinge took over the operation of many of these on the wording of the Bill. When we see declining ports. I would like the Minister exactly how the harbour board is placed with to tell me if there is in fact any purpose regard to repayments and how it is financed behind the alteration to this set-up. from the harbour user we will be in a better position to discuss that provision. I hope That body could perhaps look further at that the drastic increase in penalties is not some of our problem ports in Queensland. taken to mean that part of the finance will We do have two, the ports of Bowen and come from fines, forfeitures and this type Port Alma. They are board operations under of thing. the Harbours Act and have had financial As I said, this is the type of Bill that needs difficulties for quite a number of years. If to be looked at and the Opposition will leave there is any possibility of the Corporation it at that for the moment. of the Treasurer assisting those boards in their operations, I think perhaps this would Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (5.50 p.m.): I am be the time to do it. very pleased to see the introduction of Of course, the Corporation of the Tre:'ls­ this legislation. Most of the amendments urer has not been handling only ports wh1ch listed by the Minister are badly needed. are in financial difficulties; it has been hand­ Since 1952 when the Act was consolidated ling all of the affairs of the ports of Weipa by the then Treasurer, the late Mr. E. J. and Hay Point, too. They ha_ve become Walsh, there has been a considerable change two of our largest ports and, mdeed, the in many of Queensland's port authorities. profits from the operation of those two ports Many of the works and activities (;arried out must be a bonanza to the Corporation of by these port authorities have been updated. the Treasurer. In so far as the port of I would suggest that many of the amend­ Weipa is concerned, I suggest it would be ments being put forward in this Bill are very difficult to establish a harbour board designed merely to legalise what has become there although the Harbours Act does in the practice of many of the boards. I might fact 'allow for it. The operations of the add that I do not mean that in an illegal port are tied to one industry and one oper­ sense, because they are practices that are ator at present, and no other established port common, as the Minister pointed out, to authority within hundreds of miles could local authorities and other business enter­ take over the operations in that area. prises within the community, and so there­ fore it is necessary that the provisions However, I suggest that a strong case can covering harbour boards be updated in this be made out for the Mackay Harbour Board way. to take over the operations of the Port of Harbour boards throughout Queensland Hay Point. It is only about 20 kilometres have played and are continuing to play across the water from Mackay harbour and a great role in the development of the State. it is equally a port of the Mackay district. We are as has so often been said, an Over many years the Mackay Harbour B~ard export State, and as such our export earnings has proved that it can handle port op~ratwns have contributed very greatly to the very efficiently. The port of Hay Pomt was economic well-being of our nation as a once part of the Mackay Harbour Board whole. It is because of the efficiency of area but was excluded many years ago on our harbour boards and the way in which the 'pretence that there was pollution of a they have operated over the years that we creek in the area. In fact, that was not very have been able to share in the economic long before negotiations began with Central development which has resulted from Queensland Coal Associates and the various increased exports in recent years. Had it companies inland from Mackay that are now not been for the work done by many of handling coal. Central Queensland Coal our boards, we would not have the economic Associates are now exporting 12,000,000 or development we see along the length of the 13,000,000 tonnes of coal a year, or perhaps coast. even more through Hay Pomt. When Nor­ wich Park' comes into production, between We must keep in mind that this Bill 16 000 000 and 19,000,000 tonnes of coal a does not relate to the Port of Brisbane ye~r ~ill be exported. In a.ddition, o~her Authority Bill, which was introduced the companies are due to estabhsh operatwns other night. That Bill alters the working and it is planned that they should operate of the Port of Brisbane. The Corporation through the port of Hay Point. 3674 Harbours Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill

In recent months there has been quite a in the Emu Park-Yeppoon area is right away lot of noise about the export levy of $6 a from the control of any harbour boards in tonne on coal-handling operations in Queens­ that area. However, Rosslyn Bay is an land. One of the cries from people in the example of what can happen in an attempt Mackay area, from which some of the coal to set up something similar to a harbour as comes, is that the money goes to the Federal a small boat harbour. I believe that the Government, which is not putting anything setting up of the small boat harbour in the back into the area. If the port of Hay Point main harbour complex in Mackay has been was constituted part of the port of Mackay, very beneficial for boat owners in the area. the local people who have had to put up with Operations have been controlled by an problems that have arisen indirectly from the experienced group on the Mackay Harbour development that has taken place in the area Board. Advice given by that board concerning could perhaps share, through local organisa­ the establishment of the small boat harbour tions such as the Mackay Harbour Board, was indeed cherished and valued at the time which has been a very good and enterprising by the Department of Harbours and Marine. board, in the profitable coal export. Because So it is rather strange that while extra powers of the way in which royalties are obtained are now coming to the board-boards are by the State and, through the coal export being upgraded in many respects by the levy, by the Commonwealth, those two levels Bill-at the same time, on an administrative of Government are sharing in the prosperity basis, the Department of Harbours and of the area, while the smaller local organisa­ Marine is attempting to take away control of tions are not. I again suggest strongly that the small boat harbour in the port of Mackay the Mackay Harbour Board could share in from the Mackay Harbour Board. I would that prosperity if the port of Hay Point was make a plea to the acting Minister that this brought under its control. be looked at very carefully. I would go so far as to suggest that more small boat There are a couple of other points that I harbours should be placed more directly wish to make fairly quickly. The Minister under the control of harbour authorities. mentioned that certain additional controls and alterations relative to small boats and I have already mentioned the possibility shipping are included in the amendments of Hay Point coming under the control of now proposed. I do not know whether any the Mackay Harbour Board. There is a other port authority is in a similar situation, proposal to build an additional small harbour but the small boat harbour has actually been established inside Mackay Harbour. A move at Hay Point. It has been classified as a tug is being made by the Department of Harbours harbour, but on the last estimate it will cost and Marine in this State to take control of between $8,000,000 and $9,000,000. Perhaps that small boat harbour, which is now under that could be extended to cope with the many the control of the Mackay Harbour Board. small boats in the area. As the acting Minis­ It is said that the Bill is designed to update ter would know, the Mackay area is very the work of harbour boards and give them popular for the use of small boats, mainly better control, thus enabling them to over­ because there are more off-shore islands in come anomalies that have occurred over the the area 120 kilometres north and south of years since the Harbours Act was intro­ Mackay than along any other part of Aus­ duced. At the same time, the Department tralia's coastline. For that reason safe and of Harbours and Marine is to impose a pleasurable boating activities can be enjoyed burden on the Mackay Harbour Board that will restrict its control of operations in its in that area. This could be all tied in with own area. I know that finance was pro­ the planning to extend the port of Mackay vided for this by the Department of Harbours in conjunction with taking over the control and Marine through the Smallcraft Facilities of Hay Point. The one authority could Fund. The responsibility for looking after control small boat harbours and take over the proposal has rested with the Mackay the planning for heavy, noxious industries and Harbour Board. I was a member of that other industries for which Hay Point would board when it negotiated with the depart­ be a more suitable export outlet than Mackay ment to build the boat harbour. Harbour. Many of these functions can be [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.] carried out only by a common board which can properly plan for both authorities. The Mr. CASEY: Before the dinner adjourn­ planning for a small boat harbour adds ment I was referring to certain activities in weight to the need for Hay Point .to come regard to small boat harbours, in particular under the control of the Mackay Harbour the small boat harbour at Mackay, which is Board. situated in Mackay Harbour itself, and con­ structed by the Mackay Harbour Board, During the last session I had a fair amount although finance was certainly supplied by the to say about the development of Lucinda Department of Harbours and Marine. That Point, which is under the control of the boat harbour is unusual in that most of the corporation of the Treasury. During the other small boat harbours in Queensland have recess I had an opportunity to visit the been sited away from the normal under­ Lucinda area and inspect it personally. I takings under the control of the port firmly believe that the arguments I raised authority. The Rosslyn Bay boat harbour then are equally valid now. The money is Harbours Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3675

being badly spent on the development of that the major expansion in the sugar indus­ Lucinda Point on that basis, particularly try will take place in the Mackay and Bur­ when one sees the need to develop the port dekin areas. How he can make that claim of Bowen. The Minister has tried in many in the light of the fact that the Sugar Board ways to promote the development of the area. has given $50,000,000 towards the cost of At the present time we see tremendous the expansion of the ports of Bundaberg expansion in the sugar industry. Further and Mourilyan, I do not know. The Bun­ expansion will follow in the Burdekin and daberg area has seen tremendous expansion Mackay areas. They are more capable than in the sugar industry. All we are waiting any other area of further expansion. The for now in the completion of the irrigation production from the Herbert River area is scheme. We know what the Queensland restricted somewhat by the port of Lucinda Government has done in this direction­ Point. I suggest that an additional sugar virtually nothing. Whereas the Federal Gov­ outlet should have been constructed in Bowen ernment spent $17,500,000, the Queensland Harbour to cater for the output from the Government has spent only $8,300,000. Inkerman and Proserpine sugar mills, which As our sugar exports have to go through would be equivalent to the production from the port of Bundaberg the port facilities must the Macknade and Victoria mills. The cost be improved. Do honourable members think involved in constructing the additional out­ that the Sugar Board would put $50,000,000 let in Bowen Harbour would be far less than into port facilities if it did not believe there that incurred on the new port at Lucinda was scope for large-scale increased produc­ Point. tion? The original cost of the Monduran irrigation scheme was estimated at $20,000,000 We have what I would term complementary but because the Government has not taken legislation in the Port of Brisbane Authority steps to speed up its construction the cost has Bill, which contains certain provisions that escalated to $40,000,000. The Government are not in the Harbours Act. From the has channelled money into other schemes like Minister's introductory comments, I gather the Eton irrigation scheme, which should have that some of those provisions are being been delayed until the Bundaberg scheme got included in the Harbours Act, and for this I under way. When money began to come in am very grateful. The additional powers from the farmers the Government could have conferred by the Port of Brisbane Authority started other schemes. I shall not talk about Bill should be given also to harbour boards irrigation schemes, Mr. Miller. throughout the State. The Port of Brisbane Authority Bill allows The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. the new Port of Brisbane Authority to take Miller): Order! I would like the honourable certain steps to cover unforeseen, emergent member to come back to the Bill. and extraordinary expenditure. Provision is made in the Local Government Act for Mr. JENSEN: I shall deal with it, but I local authorities to take similar action. The point out that the Bundaberg district has the Minister has said that this Bill contains pro­ best prospects for expansion in the sugar in­ visions similar to those already in the Local dustry. That is why the Sugar Board is Gover!l.ment Act. I sincerely hope that har­ advancing $50,000,000 for ports and harbours bour boards will be allowed to cover them­ in two areas. That is a lot of money to selves under the new funding arrangements take from the pockets of Mackay and other mentioned by him for emergent, unfore­ growers to spend on Mourilyan and Bunda­ seen and extraordinary expenditure. This berg port facilities. will bring them into line with the Port of Mr. Casey: The Bundaberg scheme bogged Brisbane Authority and local authorities. down for the same reason as the Eton The Port of Brisbane Authority will cover scheme, that is, lack of finance from the the two areas to the north and to the south Federal Government. of the river. I should like to see the pro­ visions of the Harbours Act extended to Mr. JENSEN: The present Federal Govern­ create harbour board areas on a boundary­ ment will not advance further money, but to-boundary basis. By that I mean that port the former Federal Government increased its authorities, whether or not they be har­ allocation from $12,500,000 to over bour boards, should have jurisdiction over $17,000,000. Like the present Federal Gov­ contiguous areas with common boundaries. ernment, the State Government will not in­ By this means greater control could be crease its allocation of $8,300,000. exercised over certain aspects of boating, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! shipping, fisheries and the movement of I cannot allow the honourable member to unknown vessels along our coastline. I talk about irrigation works. should like to see contiguous port authority areas stretching from Cape York to the Mr. JENSEN: I shall not deal with that, Qneensland-New South Wales border. but I emphasise tlrat major expansion in the sugar industry is taking place in the Bunda­ Mr. JENSEN (Bundaberg) (7 .24 p.m.): I berg area. The Queensland Sugar Board am interested in the comments of the hon­ knows where the expansion is taking place, ourable member for Mackay, who has said as does the Minister for Primary Industries. 3676 Chicken Meat Industry [13 APRIL 1976] Committee Bill

Expenditure of $50,000,000 has been approved The chicken meat industry in Queensland for ports and harbours at Bundaberg and is highly efficient and professionally Mourilyan. The Bundaberg irrigation scheme organised, with current annual wholesale will lead to greater production in the Bunda­ receipts of approximately $30,000,000 from berg area than elsewhere in the State. some 18,000,000 birds. So it is a fairly sizable primary industry. The industry con­ Hon. R. E. CAMM (Whitsunday-Acting sists of a small number of processors, most Minister for Tourism and Marine Services) of whom are supplied with broiler chickens (7.28 p.m.), in reply: I thank members by a larger number of growers. of the Opposition for their contribution. It is essential that processors have As the honourable member for Bulimba indicated this is a very large Bill embodying chickens available to meet market demands many clauses. In the circumstances, I think at all times. Likewise, because of the high honourable members should study the Bill quality the consumer now demands of table when they receive it so that they may com­ chickens, it is necessary that birds be shifted ment appropriately on the matters incorpor­ from growers to processors over a short, ated in it. Some items referred to in the critical period. debate have had no relation to the Bill. Because the industry is founded on a high­ The honourable member for Bulimba volume, low-profit-margin basis, the price referred to the large increase in some penal­ to be paid by processors to growers for ties from a few hundred dollars to some birds is a crucial figure for industry stability. thousands of dollars. At a later stage he r would like honourable members, when provided the reason for that when he said that considering the Bill, to remember that. Over pollution control is becoming a major part of the years, individual processors have the activities of port authorities. The servicing negotiated growing fees with individual of lights, beacons, buoys and harbour installa­ growers on a basis that has not always been tions is becoming much more important in satisfactory. the light of the increased use of our harbours This Bill will allow the industry to carry by small boats. That is why greater import­ out these negotiations in an orderly manner ance is attached to vandalism associated with through a Chicken Meat Industry Com­ installations. mittee. The committee will consist of I shall leave further comment until my representatives selected by the growers and speech at the second-reading stage. I shall processors with an independent chairman. then reply to some of the relevant matters It is proposed that the processors will raised by Opposition members. nominate three representatives and the broiler growers, three. All agreements Mr. Houston: Is this Bill being cleaned up between processors and growers for the this session? supply of broiler chickens will be vetted by this committee. This requirement will not Mr. CAMM: Yes, before we adjourn. The apply to a processor who grows his own House will be sitting for as long as honour­ chickens. able members prolong the debates. It is Further, the committee will mediate in intended to deal with the second and third disputes where the parties fail to agree on readings this session. a fair and reasonable price. In the event Motion (Mr. Camm) agreed to. of the parties being unable to reach agree­ ment, provision will be made for the com­ Resolution reported. mittee to determine the matter finally.

FIRST READING I would stress that the provisions of the Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Bill will only apply to broiler chickens. They Camm, read a first time. will not apply to the sale of birds which are kept for purposes of egg production. Basically the intention is to leave the industry as unfettered as possible whilst at CHICKEN MEAT INDUSTRY the same time providing a forum-the com­ COMMITTEE BILL mittee-for discussion and negotiation. Because of its nature it is essential that the INITIATION IN CoMMITTEE industry retain the maximum degree of flexibility to enable it to cope with rapidly Hon. V. B. SULUVAN (Condamine- changing market situations. In the long run Minister for Primary Industries) (7.32 this legislation should benefit both processors p.m.) : I move- and consumers and will have a stabilising "That a Bill be introduced relating to effect on the industry generally. the stabilization of the chicken meat industry, to establish a chicken meat As I indicated, this is a Bill-I will not industry committee and for connected say it is a simple one-that the processors purposes." and growers have asked for. There have been problems where growers have considered The Bill is quite simple and straightforward that their requirements have not been met and I believe will have the support of the and processors, too, have their point of view. industry. This will set up a committee or forum where Chicken Meat Industry [13 APRIL 1976] Committee Bill 3677 these matters can be ironed out by three of course, the Minister wants all decisions to representatives of the processors, three repre­ be unanimous? I think he is flying too high sentatives of the growers and an independent if he thinks they will reach a unanimous chairman. decision on every occasion. I commend the motion to the Committee. Another weakness in the legislation is that the processor can conduct his own Mr. HOUSTON: (Bulimba) (7.38 p.m.): farm, and as a result of doing that he can Earlier today the Leader of the Opposition put a very strong financial lever on the suggested quite rightly that the present growers because the processor always has National-Liberal Government had fallen over the right to threaten that, if the grower does backwards to acclaim and instrument social­ not fall into line with his price, he will istic principles. Like most people who copy extend his own growing activities. If we things, the Government has gone to the are to get stabilisation in the industry, more complete extreme. This legis! ation could be of this will have to happen. I can under­ considered to have come from this side of stand the desire of the industry to have the Chamber. The Government is now prac­ stability. I think we can all understand the tising that which it condemned only a while need for a ready supply of first-grade poultry ago. It practises it because it is good in for processing. I do not think there is any principle and in policy. Whether it will argument about that and I think that any achieve the desired end is another matter. legislation that tends to improve the situ­ ation will be welcomed. That is why in An Honourable Member interjected. this case we are saying that we have no objection to the introduction of the Bill, Mr. HOUSTON: I do not know about but what I am pointing out is that, if all flexibility. It could be thought of in terms that is contained in the legislation is what of flexibility but it lays down certain fixed was mentioned by the Minister in his intro­ guide-lines. ductory remarks, there will be problems associa•ed with it. The Minister indicated that the object of the legislation was to overcome the problems In the matter of book-work, one of the associated with the prices paid by the pro­ things that the grower has to put up with is cessor to the producer. If a Labor Govern­ that the processor who grows his own poultry ment did this, it would be accused of price­ has two sections of his operation to which fixing. It would be said, "That is completely he can charge various costs. It would be wrong because you are bringing in a price­ a very easy matter for the processor to fixing measure." I do not think that the show his chicken production costs as a Minister will deny that it is a form of price­ very low figure and his costs for the oper­ fixing; if he does, he had better have ation of the processing plant as a very high another look at the definition of that term. figure, whereas the independent chicken pro­ ducer who supplies the processor has only He is setting up a tribunal of seven the one cost structure to work on. So people-three processors, three growers and I think we require much more explanation an independent chairman. On the one hand from the Minister as to what he meant the Minister suggested that the parties might when he said, on the one hand, that the be unable to reach agreement. From that I majority decision would virtually be the take it that any decision made by the com­ decision, and, on the other, that if agree­ mittee has to be a complete agreement or ment is not reached, it would be up to the it will not stand. Surely a majority of four committee to make the decision. As I said, to three should rule on a seven-man com­ the committee decision would be a 4-3 mittee. If the members are representative decision at best, and neither the grower of the processors and the growers, I have nor the processor would be very happy no doubt that on a matter such as the price about it. If it is the processor who being paid to a particular grower the is not happy, then he has the advantage growers' representatives would vote unani­ in that he can extend his chicken-growing mously. So the person then who would make activities, and this is the big fear I have-- the final decision would be this independent chairman. Mr. Moore: Are you talking about chickens or old boilers? I have no fight with his doing that, because if he is going to be an independent Mr. HOUSTON: I will let the honourable chairman we would expect him to member for Windsor go. He was never very favour one side and then the other bright at this time of night so we will not depending on the facts of the issue and embarrass him any further. the way the argument is presented. That to my mind would be a 4-3 majority, yet Mr. Sullivan: You aren't going to put him in the Minister's introduction he said the on the block, are you? position could be reached where they could fail to reach agreement. They were his Mr. HOUSTON: No, I am not in the words. How could they fail to reach agree­ mood for an execution at the moment. I ment when there are seven members, which am sure that the Minister is trying to do allows for a four to three majority, unless, two things. On the one hand, he wants birds 3678 Chicken Meat Industry [13 APRIL 1976] Committee Bill

to be available for processing, and on the The problem in this instance, of course, as other he wants a fair price to the growers. in most situations, is that people in the rural Because the processor has no controls imposed areas do not understand the problems in the on him as to how many birds he can produce industrial areas and people in the industrial or as to what his bargaining power is, a areas do not understand the problems in very awkward situation could arise for the the rural areas. These problems can be gro,wer. resolved only by talks and negotiations. The difficulty cannot be overcome by a person Mr. CHINCHEN (Mt. Gravatt) (7.46 p.m.): dictating. The more years I spend in this Chamber The problem of the processor is that his the more I think there is a tendency to over­ birds are going out onto a fluctuating market legislate. The proposed Bill is a typical -a market that is never steady or static. On example. I am not interested in growers the other hand, the grower will want a fixed or in processors; I am interested in the and firm price. I imagine that these could principles that revolve round this particular well be .the problems. I do not know whether piece of legislation. they are; I am just trying to visualise what As I see it, this is an industrial matter the situation might be. In effect, there will or a commercial matter-call it what you be a price-fixing authority who will be one wish, Mr. Miller-in which two bodies have man appointed by the Minister. to get together. If we are going to legislate As I said earlier, the industry does not for every group of people in a similar pos­ interest me one iota, but the principle inter­ ition, we will not be doing anything else. ests me greatly because there are so many For example, Mr. Miller, you could take the areas of business in which it applies. Does manufacturers of motor-cars and the dealers it mean .that I can rush along tomorrow and who handle the sale of them; the manufac­ say to the Minister who is associated with turers of frocks and the wholesalers and a particular area of industry, "Because I retailers. These groups are battling end­ can't get along with the people to whom I lessly for their own ends. That is the way am selling goods, please set up a committee things happen. If we have to bring down of this nature, with one man to decide"? legislation to establish the simple matter of There are hundreds of these areas-there may what the grower gets and what the proces­ be thousands-and this is normal business. sor is paid, 1 think that is rather remarkable. Why the two groups with whom we are I am surprised that such a Bill should come concerned here cannot get together instead of before this Chamber. asking the Minister to introduce legislation, The proposed Bill came before our joint I do not know. party meeting with perhaps eight or 10 I can understand that it is the easy way out. other Bills and was handled in two minutes. The growers will think, "The Minister will Opposition Members interjected. be on our side. He will appoint somebody who is inclined our way." Probably that is Mr. CHINCHEN: I am telling honourable the way they are thinking. Perhaps the members that that is the way it goes. When man appointed may be processor-oriented. I had a look at the proposed Bill, I thought That would be equally shocking. One group to myself, "What on earth are we doing?" is dependent on the other. The grower is no It is quite worrying, because there are many good without the processor, and the pro­ groups of people who are antagonistic to one cessor fails without the grower. Therefore another-in the commercial or industrial the two groups have to come to an under­ fields, or any other field you like, Mr. Miller standing. I am amazed that adult people -but who work things out for themselves. cannot do that within their own organisa­ I can imagine quite easily that there have tions. It will be said that that has been been many problems in this particular area. tried and tried again. We are now taking the But as human beings in organisations, that load off their shoulders and saying, "We is their problem; it is not our problem. will handle it for you. We will put up a I can imagine, too, that the Department of man who will make this decision which will Primary Industries has been involved in this be binding and final." What if that means matter and wants to be rid of it. What is the the collapse of one side or the other? What easiest way for it to get rid of it? Put happens then? The Minister is responsible, through a piece of legislation that will mean and I do not think he should ever be placed that one man makes the decision. That in that position. To me it is absolutely is all we are doing..:_three growers, three ridiculous that we enact legislation for a processors and a person known as an inde­ normal business matter. That is all it is. pendent chairman appointed by the Minister. I know there will be members in this Although he will be an independent chairman, Chamber who represent growers or pro­ I am inclined to think that on most occasions cessors. I represent none of them, but I am he will go with the strength in the rural worried about the principle that we should areas, and this is where a problem will arise. bring down legislation to take care of a There is no appeal against these decisions. simple normal business matter. I don't The Minister mentioned the word "final". I agree with it. The Minister has said that gathered that whatever the independent chair­ there have been problems. I accept that, but man decides is final and binding. it is up to people in business to work out Chicken Meat Industry [13 APRIL 1976] Committee Bill 3679 their own problems. There has to be under­ forces that one should imagine ought to standing and co-operation. If we do not apply-for example, if a grower got a bad have that, and everything becomes a matter deal off one processor, he could walk up of legislation, the free-enterprise area may the road and supply some other processor­ as well give up. We have experienced it just are not on in this industry. So my party before in this Chamber, and here it is again­ has had to support orderly marketing here or control upon control upon control. It is the growers would be put out of business. quite worrying. I suggest that before the Tremendous pressure was put on them. They Minister places himself in this position he were committed financially to various pro­ should give more thought to it, because he cessors and the processors were calling the is going to be the man responsible for the tune. success or failure of the industry. Both sides cannot prevail unless they can get It is all very well for a member to claim along together. If the Minister's man says, that the principle is wrong. I would point "You are the winners and you are the losers", out to him that the small farmers have a there are going to be ructions and problems. tremendous amount of capital tied up in I agree with the Opposition speaker who their industry, on which they depend for their said that this smells of price control. That livelihood, and they may not be flexible is how it smells to me. It is worrying enough to move into some other agricultural because this is a fluctuating industry where industry, nor are they able to go to another things are never static. If a person or com­ processor. Another processor won't have him, mittee is to decide what happens to it, and so he is stuck with the original processor, matters are taken out of the normal aspect of who over the years has been telling the business work and communication, it is farmer the exact number of chickens that he somewhat horrifying to me. I am dis­ will produce and the exact price that he will appointed that the Bill has come into the be paid. And the price has been getting worse. Chamber. I can see that from now on we Against that background our party has tried are going to have thousands of these thrust to introduce orderly marketing to assist the at us. Having accepted one, how do we primary producers in this industry. Orderly refuse others? marketing is nothing new; it has been intro­ duced into a whole range of primary indus­ Mr. AHERN (Landsborough) (7.53 p.m.): tries. It is the policy of our party to intro­ As one who represents growers, I compli­ ment the Minister on bringing down this duce orderly marketing, and I :2m quite proud legislation. After all, it has been the policy of it. Thanks to the efforts of this Minister, of this Government for many years to sup­ a great number of orderly marketing schemes port orderly marketing in the primary indus­ have been introduced in recent times. Each tries. Countless pieces of legislation pre­ scheme, whether it relates to the pineapple sented to th'is Parliament in the eight years industry, the ginger industry or the tobacco I have been here have dealt with this simple industry, has been eminently successful. This aspect of orderly marketing in primary indus­ is in spite of the fact that each scheme has tries. When there is an attempt at orderly been small and has been subjected to marketing there have to be tribunals. The criticism of the type levelled by the honour­ type of tribunal described in the Minister's able member for Mt. Gravatt. No matter legislation represents the best chance for what label is placed upon these schemes, they the industry to work out its problems. When growers and processors come together under have worked to the great benefit of the an independent chairman, there is the best growers. chance of getting some justice for both sides The processors have not gone broke. In in the matters under dispute. I first raised fact they have come to value the ord~rly this matter in the Chamber eight years ago. marketing arrangements that have apphe;l. At that time I received a letter from the As time goes by, this type of scheme w1ll then Minister for Primary Industries (Hon. work in the interests of both the processors J. A. Row), who had raised the matter and the growers. The growers are entitled to at Australian Agricultural Council level. At enjoy a reasonable standard of living. After that time he said he was hoping for some all, everyone else in the community is arbitration on broiler growers' contracts. demanding a higher standard ?f living, so Because there has been so much vertical why should not the growers enJOY the same and horizontal integration in this industry standard? Yet the processors have been ask­ over the years that has worked to the great ing them to accept less and less. detriment of the growers-- The chicken-processing industry has been Mr. Jensen interjected. in lots of trouble, brought about by increases in grain prices and lower meat prices. This Mr. AHERN: For the edification of the has led to fierce competition in the market­ honourable member for Bundaberg I say place. When aH this is bundled together with that, because there have been so many the integration that has occurred between amalgamations of companies at horizontal companies at both vertical and horizontal and vertical levels, there are very few inde­ levels, we see that the situation is such as to pendent processing units in this industry call for action on the part of the Govern­ throughout Australia. The free market ment. 368~ Chicken Meat Industry [13 APRIL 1976] Committee Bill

I whole-heartedly support the legislation Mr. JENSEN: It was only two years ago and ask the Minister to take this matter to that Government members, including the hon­ the Australian Agricultural Council with a ourable member for Somerset, howled when view to ensuring that growers in other States I protested about beef prices rising to $2 a also enjoy the benefit of legislation of this pound. They were not concerned about the type. A lot of processing units go interstate. people. In those days people were paying Unless action is taken on a nation-wide basis, $1 or $1.20 for a chicken. No. 7 or No. 12 the scheme will not be as effective as we hope. chickens now cost $2 or $3. This legislation will only cause the abattoirs Mr. JENSEN (Bundaberg) (7.59 p.m.): The or the processors to rob further the primary honourable member for Mt. Gravatt spoke a producers. I am not opposed to the primary good deal of common sense. The honourable producers on this matter. Producers in the member for Landsborough might think about chicken-meat industry get about 20c a lb. forming some co-operatives consisting of pro­ while the public pays about 80c a lb. The cessors and the growers. He has supported abattoirs are robbing the primary producers. his section of the industry-the growers. The Under this type of legislation the people are honourable member for Mt. Gravatt showed forced to pay more. that we have seen the introduction over the years of a heap of legislation to protect cer­ Irrespective of whether a primary producer tain sections of primary industries. Everyone produces beef or chickens, he does not care two hoots about the people who have to buy would agree that this all started with the his product. He is interested only in making Apple and Pear Board. his cop. Producers in the beef industry did Mr. Goleby: Nothing to do with it. not worry two hoots about the people who were paying $2 a pound for rump steak. Mr. JENSEN: I am just showing where it They were laughing their heads off. But when started. Later the Minister introduced the the beef industry collapsed they cried like Hen Quotas Act. When that measure was hell. They cried in this Parliament. being brought forward, I forecast that the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. price of eggs would reach $1 a dozen. Today Miller): Order! I ask the honourable mem­ they are $1.10 a dozen. ber to come back to the Bill before the Committee. We are dealing with the estab­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. lishment of a Chicken Meat Industry Com­ Miller): Order! The honourable member will mittee. I have given the honourable member come back to the Bill. fair latitude. Mr. Sullivan: I never hear you complaining Mr. JENSEN: I am drawing an analogy. about the price of beer. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I will Mr. JENSEN: I complain about the price not allow the honourable member to deal of everything. I believe that things are with his analogy all night. going haywire. Prices and wages are going haywire and people who had a little money Mr. JENSEN: How can I make a speech in the bank now have virtually nothing. without drawing an analogy or making a contrast? Mr. Sullivan: You were very critical about Gough Whitlam causing all this, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! weren't you? The honourable member will speak about the Chicken Meat Industry Committee or I Mr. JENSEN: I was critical of what the will have to ask him to resume his seat. Government has done to protect this side Mr. JENSEN: The motion moved by the of the industry. Minister ends with these words, "and for connected purposes." I am talking about The honourable member for Mt. Gravatt some of the connected purposes. showed that he was seriously concerned about the Government's bringing in legislation to Mr. Casey: The best way of putting the protect all sections of primary industry. On legislation into effect would be in conjunction this occasion we are dealing with legislation with a quota system-like the eggs. to stabilise the chicken-meat industry. A few years ago, when the beef industry was down, Mr. JENSEN: Oh, a quota system! Mr. the chicken-meat industry was in the Acting Chairman-- ascendancy. When the price of beef rose, the chicken industry came good. Honourable The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! members representing beef-producing areas The honourable member will address the were howling about the chicken industry Chair. He does not have to take interjections. taking over. Although the chicken industry Mr. JENSEN: I said, "Mr. Acting Chair­ is a primary industry, honourable members man--" representing beef-producing areas were howl­ ing that the chicken industry was taking over The honourable member for Mackay­ when the price of steak rose to $2 a pound. as you would have heard if you were listen­ ing to me, Mr. Miller, instead of speaking Mr. Gunn: That's ancient history. to me-referred to a quota system. We Chicken Meat Industry [13 APRIL 1976] Committee Bill 3681

implemented such a system under the Hen Mr. GOLEBY (Redlands) (8.8 p.m.): On Quotas Act. This is why eggs today are a behalf of the meat chicken producers in the dollar a dozen. When metrication has been Redlands electorate I, for one, welcome fully introduced, they will be a dollar for 10. this piece of legislation. It is something This is the type of legis1ation that the that the industry has sought for many, many Government enacts to put up prices to the years. consumer. The grower wants a fair price­ and I agree. I have always supported the I have been quite amazed to see the ignorance shown by the members of the grower. I supported the grower in the p~g­ swill legislation debate. All these National Opposition. It is remarkable how little they Party members never considered the beef know about the meat chicken industry. The industry or any other industry-- honourable member for Bulimba spoke in generalities, but he knew nothing at all. He The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. was just feeling his way along, hoping he Miller): Order! The honourable member would find that his comments landed in the is reverting to the beef industry. For the right spot, whereas the member for Bunda­ last time I ask him to come back to the berg knew nothing at all. Chicken Meat Industry Committee. Mr. Houston: Why don't you get stuck Mr. JENSEN: I am tal:k:ing about the into Chinchen? chicken industry, and chickens can get diseases just as easily as can beef cattle and Mr. GOLEBY: He will come next. You pigs. I believe that we in this place must will have to wait your turn. He did know protect any primary industry. I ·believe that, a little bit about it, but you knew nothing whether it be the sugar industry, the beef about it. industry or the chicken industry, we are here to lend protection. They are most The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! important industries to this State. There is always a processor who wants to Mr. GOLEBY: The member for Bunda­ rob the primary producer. This legislation berg showed he had no knowledge or feeling is the same as other Bills that the Govern­ for the industry. He has no knowledge what­ ment has introduce-it The committee is to soever of who controls the industry-how consist of three representatives of each side, the industry has changed over 20 years and with the Minister acting as chairman, iJ: is now .controlled by big combines. That suppose. It is most important that the con­ is the reason why this legislation is necessary. sumer gets a fair go. We do not want legislation setting up monopolies and acting The broiler industry began in the Red­ against the best interests of the buyer. lands electorate back in the early 1950s. Today more than 50 per cent of the meat Mr. Sullivan interjected. chickens produced in this State come from within the boundaries of my electorate. Mr. JENSEN: I suppose the Minister is saying, "We wouldn't do that." I know that Except for one large family company, the the Minister is a pretty fair man in most growers are controlled in the main by inter­ respects; but when the growers get on to state combines that operate throughout the him, he bows to them. The honourable nation. member for Landsborough just got up and Chickens are produced on a contract showed how the growers say that they want system. What I would like to impress upon this and they want that. honourable members is that the growers, as This is most important. I will protect the they have been referred to, are virtually Minister and the primary producers of this custodians of the chickens. The chickens State at any time at all. I thought it was are supplied by the processor. The grower disgusting that half the National Party then raises the chickens. Let us bear in members did not support the Minister on mind that, first, the grower has to provide the pig-swill Bill. Any big industry such as his land, erect his sheds, supply the litter the pig industry, the chicken industry or the and the labour, and also pay the large beef industry must be supported. We do not interest bill involved. Each year he gets allow sugar-cane of any description to be approximately 4.2 batches and each batch brought into this State. We do not even let has about a 12-week cycle. For his efforts sugar come into the State. We would not he has received a princely sum of as low allow cane sets to be brought into the State as Se a bird. When I hear Opposition unless they went through quarantine. How­ members seek to imply that we are trying ever, beef is allowed to be brought into the to control the industry by price-fixing-- State-imported beef, which is killing our beef industry. We allow the import of other Mr. Houston: Of course it's price-fixing! products, too. Mr. GOLEBY: The honourable member The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! again displays his ignorance. He knows I have been very tolerant with the honour­ nothing about it. able member. I will have to ask him to resume his seat. Honourable Members interjected. 118 3682 Chicken Meat Industry [13 APRIL 1976] Committee Bill

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Mr. GOLEBY: The processors and the Miller): Order! I am trying to hear the growers have a reasonable agreement. They honourable member for Redlands, not the are happy with this legislation. It was a fair honourable members for Bulimba and suggestion that both sides have three rep­ Somerset. resentatives on the committee and that the committee have an independent chairman. It Mr. GOLEBY: The average bird sold in is also fair that the chairman be a voting the supermarket today is the No. 14, which chairman. The legislation is being introduced is the average size bird from each batch of with the concurrence of both sides of the chickens, and it retails at about $2.60. Under industry. the present state of affairs the grower receives I support the Bill and commend the Minis­ 14.7c. I impress on the Committee, and ter and his officers for the research they have should like the honourable member for done on this matter. By the introduction of Bundaberg to take particular interest, the this Bill we will have a stabilised meat difference in the amounts received by the chicken industry. grower and processor. Mr. MULLER (Fassifern} (8.14 p.m.): I Mr. Houston: What about the retailer? feel that the merits of this Bill have been reasonably well canvassed during the past Mr. GOLEBY: Yes. The retailer gets his 10 minutes. However, I feel obligated to margin on everything, so that is no argument. make one or two brief comments because I The grower, who is only the custodian of would have as many persons in my electorate the chickens and produces them on behalf of the processor, gets only that small amount. engaged in this industry as there would be in any other electorate in the State. I am rather An honourable member suggested we were amazed at some of the comments made by price-fixing. We are not. All that we are the honourable member for Bundaberg, who doing is ensuring that the grower gets a fair obviously has objections to the fixing of a return for his birds. price. This is not the fixing of a price, but Mr. Houston: Nobody is arguing that at even if it were, the honourable member all, but this Bill establishes price-fixing. should have a look at the sugar industry today and see how efficient and effective it has The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! been because price is-controlled. I commend The honourable member for Bulimba has the sugar industry for having done this; it already had his opportunity to give his has been most effective. But in this industry information to the Committee. I am trying this is not intended. All the Minister has to listen to the honourable member for done is suggest that we appoint a committee Redlands. to have a look at a price which might be considered fair and reasonable to three Mr. GOLEBY: This Bill will stabilise the vitally important groups of people. industry and ensure a supply of meat chickens Mr. Jensen: What's wrong with that? for the housewife. This State is not breaking new ground. A Mr. MULLER: I have listened to the hon­ similar Bill was introduced in Western Aus­ ourable member all night, and he is very tralia and Victoria and New South Wales tiresome. is preparing similar legislation for intro­ Those groups are the growers, the pro­ duction into its House in the near cessors and, very importantly, the consumers. future. The importance is plainly that It has been suggested that the price might we operate an interstate trade. This is be fixed at a figure beyond the capacity of where section 92 of the Constitution comes the consumer. Let me tell honourable mem­ in. Chickens produced in Queensland can bers opposite-they do not seem to be aware be transported all over Australia and, unless of the facts and I have no intention of relat­ we have comparable legislation, Queensland ing them, but I want to put them at ease­ growers will find that the other States which that these producers today who have estab­ have controlled growing fees will exploit our lished sheds and equipped them 'to produce growers. This legislation must be commended meat chickens have in many, many instances as it is in the interests of the meat chicken outlaid a total of $100,000. They feed a industry, the consumer and everybody else. certain number of birds, and the figure they Mr. Casey: The opposite could apply. Our are receiving from the processor at the market could be endangered by operators moment is of the order of 14.7c a bird. across the border. Mr. Houston: Is that the price that all processors pay to producers? It is a kind of Mr. GOLEBY: Not at all. Chickens are fixed price that the processors have agreed produced more cheaply in Queensland. The on. honourable member for Mackay has been plucked once by the A.L.P. and he will be Mr. MULLER: I will answer the honour­ plucked again if he is not careful. able member's question quite seriously. At the moment there is a process of negotia­ Mr. Jensen interjected. tion. As I understand it, at this time the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! processors are paying the grower 14.7c a bird. Persistent interjections will not be tolerated. Mr. Jensen interjected. Chicken Meat Industry [13 APRIL 1976] Committee Bill 3683

Mr. MULLER: This Bill does nothing to allowed to produce more eggs to meet the alter that. What we are doing is suggesting demand of markets in their own districts. that a committee be appointed to negotiate For example, eggs have to be supplied ta with the processor and the grower to allow the Mackay and Townsville areas and other them a reasonable margin of profit. There northern areas from southern Queensland. is no suggestion whatever of exploitation in As a result, consumers have to pay much this instance. higher prices because of the additional freight component. I am going to make another open statement to honourable members opposite. I have had There has been talk of this legislation discussions with some of these growers and being the be-all and end-all of the chicken­ they have indicated to me very cle~rly that meat industry in Queensland. However, it all they are asking for now is an increase does not come anywhere near meeting the of 0.5c a bird. With the present cost structure criteria that are being met by so many other this would be acceptable to the grower. I primary industries in this State. According think this is fair and reasonable. However, to the Minister, the proposed Bill will control with costs rising as they have been over past price only, under an agreed price system. years it is distinctly possible that before long I agree with the comments of the honour­ further negotiations might be necessary. In able member for Bulimba, who said, "You this instance the committee which will be might as well have one mCJn sitting as a board established by the Minister will have a look to determine the price." vVe have seen at the price structure and peacefully reach industrial disputes heard by one commissioner agreement between both the producer and the alone. According to the newspapers today, processor. It is as simple as that, and this Commissioner Pont is sitting down with men is the only thing the Bill aims at doing. I in the electrical industry in Queensland to commend the Minister for introducing this try to resolve the problems. There is no legislation. In the light of present circum­ point in having three representatives of the stances I believe it is necessary and, frankly, Electrical Trades Union and three representa­ I think it is most worth-while. tives of the electricity supply organisation sit down with him, because he is the man who Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (8.19 p.m.): There will make the determination. Why cannot have been many strange comments tonight there be a similar set-up in this instance? about this legislation, and I would like 'to say that at this stage I believe it does not go The honourable member for Mt. Gravatt far enough, particularly in view of some of said that somebody would virtually be sitting the comments I have heard from other as a prices commissioner in this matter. Why speakers. Reference has been made to many do we not again appoint a prices commis­ of our primary industries which have been, sioner in Queensland and have him sit in well, "stabilised", which I think was the judf'ment on the price-rigging that is going term used by one speaker. The honourable on between the processors and the producers member for Fassifern just quoted the sugar in the chicken-meat industry? industry as a model of what has been I accept the points that have been made achieved in this State. I make it quite clear by the honourable member for Fassifern, who that it has become a model because the always makes an intelligent contribution to price, the quantity that can be grown and debates, on what is happening in the industry. the quantity of sugar that can be manu­ I feel very sorry indeed for the producers factured by mills are all controlled. The in the industry, who are having the screws tobacco industry was mentioned earlier, and put on them by the processors. It appears to the situation is similar in that industry. me that they now have an avenue onen to There is a guaranteed price for leaf and them through which severe penalties can be quotas are strictly controlled. The wheat imposed upon the processors for what they industry and many other primary industries are doing. I refer to the Prices Justification have a similar set-up. Tribunal. Surely this is an example of a price that is being rigged by a cartel or a Even the egg side of this industry-call group. If that is so, it is in direct contra­ it the chicken industry, the hen industry or vention of Federal legislation relating to whatever you wish, Mr. Miller-is controlled prices over the length and breadth of Aus­ on a quota basis and also on a price basis. tralia. I suggest that chicken producers now In fact, it is so strongly controlled that a have the right to go to the Prices Justification tight organisation has been created. In many Tribunal. areas there has been a cut-back in egg numbers. That has been detrimental to The honourable member for Redlands growers in my own area, where there is an asserted that one of the good aspects of the expanding market that they are not able to legislation is that it will allow Queensland to supply. come into line with some of the other States. Not really, I suggest, because unless there Some honourable members have spoken in is some quota-type agreement with the other this debate of the need for legislation to States, such as now exists in the egg-pro­ assist producers to supply additional markets ducing side of the industry, the exact reverse for broilers or chicken meat. Yet, within the of the point that he was making when he same industry, controls are so strict that referred to section 92 of the Constitution and in some areas of the State growers are not across-the-border trading will apply. If the 3684 Chicken Meat Industry [13 APRIL 1976] Committee Bill legislation is introduced, I suggest that the The poultry industry is probably the most big danger to producers in his electorate and socialised of the lot-from mother to the electorates of other honourable members chicken and even eggs. As we go from the in the south-eastern part of the State will head to the tail we find that the whole of come from across-the-border operators. the poultry industry is socialised in some Let me name the people who are doing way. It appears that people who run this sort of rigging. Provincial Traders, Coles poultry cannot run their own affairs. It and Woolworths are the big national traders seems they have no initiative or business who are doing the price rigging on the acumen, but have to rush to the Department growers. Are they going to stop short of of Primary Industries and ask it how to the Queensland border? Certainly not. If market their goods and to settle their free­ they cannot get the price they want in enterprise disputes. They ask Parliament to Queensland because of some simple piece spend its time legislating on a matter on of legislation, they are going to work hand which we have no power to legislate, namely, in glove with operators across the border. price control. This Parliament has no It is no use the Minister shaking his head. power whatever in price fixing or price He has seen that sort of thing happen control. We have power to bring down before in his own industry. I have seen industrial legislation but no price-control big operators go into provincial city areas power, because that was given away in a and squeeze out the small operators. referendum. All I can see arising out of the Bill is An Opposition Member interjected. the setting up of another committee of three growers and three processors with an inde­ Mr. CASEY: They are bringing in fish pendent chairman, some retired gentleman from the Northern Rivers area all the time. who will be sitting in judgment on the Some of the processing that is done in the industry. The committee will lay down Northern Rivers area of New South Wales guide-lines for agreement. It will mean is of fish and prawns that come from as that the poultry farmers will not be able far north in Queensland as Karumba. to make any agreement on their own. That The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. indicates that they are beyond the stage Miller): Order! I ask the honourable member where they can come to mutual arrange­ to come back to the Bill. ments. The committee will peruse all agree­ ments and approve of those it considers Mr. CASEY: It is a pertinent point to be good ones. It is taking away from because it is happening in so many other the industry its own right to solve its own industries, particularly processing industries. problems. If the agreement does not accord We are only fooling ourselves if we think with the idea of the committee it will no these big-time operators on a national basis longer be an agreement. The committee will are going to say, "We won't do this in the mediate in disputes arising between growers chicken-meat industry in Queensland." and processors. Surely to God the growers and proc-::ssors can do that themselves. There Mr. Jones interjected. is no need for us to introduce an Act of Parliament to initiate this. Surely the growers The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! and the processors can solve their own prob­ The honourable member for Cairns can lems. We should not interfere at all. make a speech later if he wishes to. Industrial disputes, of course, are in a different category. They are covered by legislation Mr. CASEY: I would be pleased if he and are settled quite often in the Industrial did join in the debate. He certainly knows Commission. what he is talking about. We are introducing legislation that affects the whole of Queens­ The committee will negotiate prices. If that land. His thorough knowledge of the way isn't price fixing, there is something wrong the industry in North Queensland would be with my understanding of the term. affected would be a valuable contribution. The committee will report to the Minister on any matter that it deems appropriate. In Dr. SCOTT-YOUNG (Townsville) (8.27 other words, if it gets into a jam it rushes p.m.): The number "13" seems to be rather back and gets ministerial protection. But I momentous for this country. We kicked suppose this is good, because a Minister out a socialist Government on the 13th. When should have supreme control over any Act I walked into the Chamber today I found within his jurisdiction. He should have the we had two socialistic Bills on the Business power to direct boards and committees to do Paper. One of them was dealt with this morn­ as he wishes. That provision is the only one ing and the second is just as bad. We that I agree with. seem to delight in saying that we are against I cannot see how the Bill will result in socialism and socialistic programmes, yet we lower prices or keep prices on an even keel. ~~pend all our days and nights passing legis­ For many years poultry, a high-protein com­ lation which is virtually nothing but that. modity, has been available at a reasonable Look at the dairying industry, the pig indus­ price. It is much cheaper than beef. For try, the wheat industry, navy beans, and example, a No. 15 chicken, of 1.5 kilograms, now chooks. can be purchased for $1.!19. The birds are Chicken Meat Industry [13 APRIL 1976] Committee Bill 3685

graded according to size, well presented and maintaining industry stability is the price paid are priced so as to fit into the housewife's by the processors to the growers. If the weekly budget. However, I cannot see that Chicken Meat Industry Committee is to con­ this will last if we entertain the idea of price trol the share-farmers-this was mentioned fixing. by the honourable member for Redlands­ I will be interested to see the regulations growers' fees will be supervised (that is when promulgated. This Bill negates the Lib­ price-fixing) and negotiations are to be eral Party's stand in relation to socialism. l entered into with the growers on behalf of personally think this matter could have been the processors to the satisfaction of all. A negotiated by a co-operative comprising grow­ committee of seven is proposed with three ers and processors. Man could discuss with growers' representatives, three processors' man the best means of marketing. It is not representatives and an independent chairman. necessary to have an Act of Parliament for Why have a committee of seven? Why not this purpose. have a committee of one? It appears to be a gross anachronism to set up such a com­ Mr. JONES (Cairns) (8.34 p.m.): The point mittee. I was trying to raise by way of interjection Mr. Houston: Each side can present its during the speech made by the honourable member for Mackay concerned the right of case to an independent chairman. redress to the Prices Justification Tribunal. I would ask the Minister what is the reverse Mr. JONES: They can, but does it take situation where the price determined by this three committee members to present a case committee, the Chicken Meat Industry Com­ for each side? Perhaps only one on each side mittee, may be in contravention of the Trade is needed. The cost structure will be decided Practices Act? The committee will be in effect by a committee which, obviously, will really a price-fixing body. be the independent chairman. The Minister has said that the industry is Mr. Lowes: What is ·the anachronism you a well-organised one, comprising 18,000,000 referred to? birds. I realise that with 18,000,000 birds of different types, it could not possibly Mr. JONES: The whole thing is that the be organised; but if the industry is such Minister said that he would leave the industry a highly efficie!lt one and is so professionally as unfettered as possible. Yet he proposes organised, what is the need for this legislation? setting up a committee with •three repre­ Admittedly the industry is a $30,000,000 sentatives from the processors, three from one. It is also a fluctuating industry and the growers and an independent chairman. one that can feel the effects of the rise and How could such a committee make a decision fail of meat prices. in unison? Each party will put forward its side of the spectrum and the decision will be Mr. Jensen: You know that Provincial made by the independent chairman. That is Traders killed 60,000 birds in one smack why I stress the independent chairman. when the price was down? I think the honourable member for Mt. Mr. JONES: They would have been killed Gravatt used the words, "The maximum not for processing but simply to keep them degree of flexibility". He is fearful of the off the market. I have seen other products legislation. He makes no bones about whose dumped. It is a terrible thing when that hap­ side he is on; he is certainly not on the side pens in our primary industries. It seems that of the small growers. we are debating broiler chickens for proces­ Mr. K. J. Hooper: Is it true-- sors supplied by a small number of growers. In my area most chicken meat producers pro­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! cess their own birds or supply a central pro­ The honourable member is not in his correct cessing plant. In the North we face problems seat. such as extreme distance from grain-producing areas, high freight charges and competition Mr. JONES: Once again the Minister has from better orientation of southern manu­ stirred to have this legislation stearn-rollered facturers with larger markets. through the party meeting. The honourable Mr. Jensen: They don't even want you to member for Mt. Gravatt said that it went produce a quantity of eggs up there. .through in two minutes. It seems that we always have an accumulation of legislation Mr. JONES: I think Mr. Miller might in the dying stages of Parliament. As yet rule me out of order if I were to talk about I have not seen .this Bill but the last Bill we the hen tax. debated contained 61 clauses. Lt seems that we will have some difficulty finishing by 4 The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. o'clock tomorrow morning, resuming at 11 Miller): The honourable member is quite a.m. to process all of these Bills to the right. second-reading stage and finishing the session at 6 o'clock Thursday morning and do justice Mr. JONES: The Minister said that this to the legislation coming before us. I very industry is one with high-volume produc­ much doubt that that would be so. tion and a low profit margin which needs controL It seems that the crucial factor in The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! 3686 Chicken Meat Industry (13 APRIL 1976] Committee Bill

Mr. JONES: The intention, purpose and Whether it be in the poultry industry or principle of the Bill are all directed at an me buying a cow from my next-door neigh­ orderly control of a fluctuating market. A bour, negotiation takes place. Maybe some of committee will be set up with representatives the honourable members will one day sit in from the growers and processors and an my seat. They will find that, when negotia­ independent chairman. However, in his tions have taken place, the Minister has been remarks the Minister made no mention about the mediator. I believe that that is not how or when the members will be paid or satisfactory. who will foot the bill, as the honoerable If honourable members are concerned about member for Landsborough said. If the effect who the independent chairman will be, I give of the Bill is to stabilise the industry and them the assurance now that he will not be a benefit both processors and consumers, I will person from my department, a processor or a be amazed. As far as I can see, all it will do producer; he will be an independent guy with is confound the industry and increase the a lot of common sense. I will not go into price. who he will be; I am pointing out who he If we are to bring legislation before will not be. He will be a bloke with common Parliament to stabilise a particular industry, sense in finance and be able to assess the why have we not seen legis1 ·1tion to stabilise industry at both levels. the beef industry? The proLlem is that this matter of boards is becoming a bit of a Mr. Houston: How much are you going joke. They are being set up to do every­ to pay him? thing. As the honourable member for Mackay said, if we had had a commissioner for prices Mr. SULLIVAN: We are not going into or a price-fixing authority, there would have how much he will be paid. been no need for legislation of this type. The processors and the growers agree on Referrals may be made under Commonwealth many things but on some they cannot reach legislation. I believe that the Prices Justifica­ complete agreement. That is all that the Bill tion Tribunal and the Trade Practices Act is about. would cover the situation quite adequately without resort to legislation such as this. The spokesman for the Opposition-he used to be leader and he could well be again­ I am speaking of the honourable member for Hon. V. B. SULLIVAN (Condamine­ Bulimba. I say that with all respect to the Minister for Primary Industries) (8.42 p.m.), Leader of the Opposition, who had to quieten in reply: I thought that when introducing the the honourable member for Bundaberg. He Bill I indicated to the Committee that two is short of numbers so he said, "For God's sections of the industry-the processors and sake, don't get sent home. We need you." the growers-had reached an agreement about my proposal. The legislation proposes The honourable member for Bulimba, who to set up a committee with three members was the Opposi!ion spokesman, said that this representing the processors and three rep­ was tantamount to price-fixing. It is not; it resenting the growers. As there will be an is negotiation between the two parties con­ independent chairman, I believe that not cerned. only will justice be done but justice will also appear to be done. Having said that, quite Mr. Houston: What do you think price­ frankly l am at a loss to know why so many fixing is? feathers have been ruffled. Mr. SULUVAN: This is arbitration. The honourable members for Lands­ borough, Redlands and Fassifern, in their Mr. Houston: You said that if they cannot support of the measure, have indicated their agree-- awareness of the situation that has existed in the industry in recent times. Mr. SULLIVAN: The honourable member Mr. Houston: It has been going on for has had his say. I was courteous and listened years. to him. I am rebutting what he said. This has nothing whatever to do with price­ Mr. SULLIVAN: Maybe it has, but I do fixing. I say this also to the honourable mem­ not want it to go on for years in the future. ber for Mt. Gravatt and the honourable mem­ That is what the legislation is all about. ber for Townsville. The honourable member I thank the honourable members to whom for Bulimba talked about socialisation of I have referred for their common-sense industries. What we are trying to do is organ­ approach. The broiler industry is worth in ise industry. the vicinity of $30,000,000. Because of my responsibility, I have got to know the people An Honourable Member interjected. involved in the industry, both on the growers' side and on the processors' s;de. They are l\1r. SULLIVAN: No. I ask the honourable pretty common-sense people. member to have a look at any other primary industry in Queensland. In addition it sur­ Mr. K. J. Hooper: Do you keep chickens? prised me that the honourable member fm Mackay wanted the Government to control Mr. SULUVAN: If the honourable mem­ all primary industries. He would be out of ber would just keep quiet, it would help. step with all other Queenslanders. Chicken Meat Industry, &c., Bill [13 APRIL 1976] City of Brisbane, &c., Bill 3687

This Government came to power in 1957. and I am damned sure it is not, there would Like many Ministers for Primary Industries have to be a Government of a different before me and, I hope, those who succeed me, political colour-- I prefer to let the primary industries work out for themselves what they want. We will not Mr. K. J. Hooper: The sooner the better. inflict things upon primary industries. If cer­ Mr. SULLIVAN: It will be a long time tain things have to happen we discuss them away, I assure the honourable member, with with the industries concerned, whether it is fellows like him in the Opposition. Heaven grain-growing, peanut-growing, tobacco­ forbid! It will be a long time from now. growing or, in this case, broiler-chicken­ I think I have covered everything I wanted raising. Through negotiation we have both to cover for now but, as I say, I just cannot the growers and the processors agreeing that understand the feathers being so ruffled on this committee be established, with an inde­ a measure both sectors of the industry asked pendent chairman, to deal with the affairs of for. the industry. Why honourable members condemn this, I do not know. Motion (Mr. Sullivan) agreed to. Resolution reported. I shall deal in more detail in my second­ reading speech with points raised by honour­ able members. FIRST READING BiiJ presented and, on motion of Mr. The honourable member for Cairns asked Sullivan, read a first time. whether this Bill would conflict with the Prices Justification Tribunal. As far as I can see-- Mr. K. J. Hooper: That's not very far. CITY OF BRISBANE TOWN PLAN Mr. SULLIVAN: The honourable member MODIFICATION BILL should know. The honourable member, above INITIATION IN COMMITTEE all people, after what he has copped in this Chamber from the Treasurer, the Minister for (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. Works and Housing and other Ministers-- Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) Mr. K. J. Hooper: That's not true. Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister for Local Government and Main Roads) The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. (8.54 p.m.): I move- Miller): Order! The honourable member for "That a Bill be introduced to provide Archerfield is not in his correct place. for the modification of the proposed new Town Plan for the City of Brisbane and Mr. SULLIVAN: There is no ;;onflict. If various other related matters." something should arise I will look fmther into The objects of this legislation, and the reasons t:his aspect. I do not think I can be fairer for introducing it, have been very well than that. As my advisers and I see it at the publicised ~nd aired, and, I would think, present time, it would not be in conflict with would be fmrly well known and acknowledged the Prices Justification Tribunal. by honourable members on both sides of the But when we get both sectors of the Committee. Essentially, this amendment is indmtry agreeing and recommending to me necessary to empower me to refer back to that we introduce legislation to set up this the Brisbane City Council, for modification, committee to attend to the affairs of the its proposed new Brisbane Town Plan. industry and honourable members are critical Honourable members will recall that the of it, just where do we go? Do honourable plan, and the 29,000 objections to it, came members want, as the honourable member to me last year, and has been the subject of for Mackay suggested, Government control considerable public controversy since then. over the broiler industry, the growers? If Senior officers of the Local Government they do they want a different Govern­ Department have been examining the plan ment-- in detail for some months. Mr. Casey: What about the eggs? There are a number of aspects of the plan which concern me and which I believe war­ Mr. SULLIVAN: The eggs are another rant reconsideration and amendment. The story. power to refer the proposed new plan to the council for reassessment and reshaping, Mr. Casey: Deny you haven't got Govern­ which this Bill provides, will give the Bris­ ment control over the eggs! bane City Council-and the whole council, not just a committee-the opportunity to Mr. SULLIVAN: This was done for a come up with a modified town plan, better very real purpose which the industry suited to direct the course of development in accepted. It is all right for the honourable the city of Brisbane over the next five years. member to say that we should have complete Under existing legislation, I could make control over all primary industries, whether recommendations to the Governor in Coun­ it be this industry, the grain-growing industry cil myself, without reference to the council, or any other. If this is what industry wants, on what changes I feel should be made to 3688 City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill

the proposed plan, and the Governor in I am particularly concerned at the role Council would have the power to approve of the city council's Planning Advisory Com­ the amended plan. However, my policy­ mittee in preparing the proposed town plan, and that of the Government-is to encour­ and the resultant lack of direct say which age greater autonomy for local government, the council, as such, had in considering it­ not to diminish it. especially in the early stages of preparation. The Bill seeks to repeal certain ordinances The newly elected Brisbane City Council of the council under which this Planning represents the citizens of Brisbane and will, Advisory Committee operated, and to dissolve of course, be responsible for administering the committee. Also, the council would be the plan. It also will be answerable for the prohibited from establishing, by ordinance problems that it might bring; and, quite or otherwise, any standing or special com­ naturally, it will receive any credit for the mittee to advise or report to .the council on benefits of the plan. any matters relating to the proposed new It is only right, then, that +the council itself plan or the modified plan. should have the opportunity to reconsider the A committee may be formed to advise the plan before final decisions on it are made, council on the implementation of the present in the light of problems that objectors and plan, provided that there are at the fewest my department foresee, and amendments five aldermen on the committee. It must which are considered desirable as a result comprise members of the council only. of the review I referred :to earlier. The time is very opportune for referring the plan back The Bill makes it clear that consideration to the council in view of the recent election of the modified plan, guide-lines which I and the changes in personnel on the council. have previously referred +to, and associated The new council should have its due say matters, shall not come within the functions in respect of the plan. of any standing committee or special com­ mittee of the council. However, the Bill does The referral of the plan back to the city not preclude the council, at a special meet­ council will involve a further period of ing, from resolving itself into a committee of public inspection and objections, and the the whole council, which, under its ord­ views expressed by objectors-and the city inances, will still consist of members only council's views on .these objections-will, of and be open to the public. The purpose of course, be taken into account before- final this action would be to remove certain recommendations are made and decisions restrictions on debate that normally would taken. Under the provisions of this Bill, the apply at a council meeting. The intent of city council will have 90 days in which to these provisions is +to ensure that reassessment reconsider the proposed plan and +to place and modification of the modified plan is the modified plan on public exhibition, and subject to open consideration by the city the public will have a further 60 days in council as a whole, not merely a select which to consider the modified plan and committee or group. lodge objections. The city council will be required to pre­ After the close of the objection period, pare the modified plan and, in doing so, to the council will have to submit to me, within consider the proposed new plan referred back 60 days, its modified plan, relevant advertise­ to it, guide-lines provided by me, and all ments, actual objections received, and its other matters considered relevant (including representations and views on each objection. any submissions prepared at the initiative of Under the terms of one clause in this Bill, the town clerk), at a special meeting or I will provide the city council with specific meetings called for the specific purpose. The guide-lines on the modifications, amendments, council will be required to exhibit its mod­ or altemtions that I consider are warranted, ified plan at its office (or another suitable following the review of :the proposed plan venue up to 1 km from its office) for 60 by myself and by the Department of Local days between the hours of 10 a. m. and 8 Government. p.m. on one working day of each week and between 10 a.m. and 4 p.m. on all other I don't propose to go into any great detail, working days. at this stage, on what these guide-lines will contain, but, as I said at the outset, a num­ Copies of objection forms will be avail­ ber of aspects of the council's proposed plan able at the council office and at the office are considered to need modification. These of the Director of Local Government, free include aspects of the statement of intent of charge, and an objector may attach an accompanying the plan, the role of the city annexure to the form where this is con­ council's Planning Advisory Committee in its sidered necessary to more clearly or fully preparation, the need for greater aldermanic state an objection. It is proposed to require involvement in drafting and considering the that specific forms be used, as this will plan, the need for more precise definitions greatly facilitate the processing of objections (especially in the case of open space and within the limited time available, ensure park and recreation areas), preservation of that essential information is provided, and citizen's rights of participation in the decision­ enable effective identification of an objection making processes, compensation for injurious as soon as it is received by the council. affection, and other matters. However, objectors need not feel inhibited City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill 3689

by the space available on the form, and may the vice-president of the Liberal Party, who attach as many other sheets of objections was reported in "The Courier-Mail" on 10 and other details as they desire. April 1976 as saying- The Governor in Council, in considering "It is my personal view that if you want the modified plan and all objections and to be in politics, you are in it for what representations on it, may reject the plan you can get out of it." outright, or approve of it wholly or in part. That has not been denied. It is there for This is the same situation as presently exists. all to see. It fairly obviously typifies the On publication of notice of approval, the attitude of the Liberal Party not only in modified plan will become and be the town the council chamber but in this Assembly plan for the city of Brisbane, and will to this Bill. have the force of law. The proposed new plan-the plan which this Bill empowers me We all remember the hue and cry from to refer back to the council-shall then be the Liberals for a commission into the Bris­ deemed to have been rejected by the Gover­ bane City Council and the resulting conse­ nor in Council. This is a necessary pro­ quences of the lengthy, drawn-out Bennett vision to dispose legally of the plan which Royal Commission, which cost ratepayers will now go back to the council. over $2,500 a day and which finally dis­ closed that the council's conditions on I believe I have given an accurate, broad developers had saved ratepayers $16,800,000 outline of the main provisions of this Bill, in seven years. It was fairly obvious that and the reasons for introducing it, and I the Liberals were acting for the developers, believe the Bill will be well received by not for the ratepayers of the city of Bris­ members on both sides of the Chamber. bane. Indicative of Liberal thinking and It is significant that the proposal to refer intent is an article in "Rydges Journal" of the plan back to the city council has been January 197 6 on how to make money, in well received to date by members of the which the following points were made:- council itself, metropolitan members in this "Politics. The opportunity for business Chamber, and other community and civic advancement through involvement with a interests. political party will always be good. Per­ Before concluding, I would briefly fore­ haps it is best to confine your political shadow amendments in future to the City of activities to local government. This has Brisbane Town Planning Act. The Act is been a traditional source of career growth due for a general reassessment and I would for real estate agents, property developers mention the difficult area of rights to and builders. If you are connected with compensation for adverse affection as one these industries you are on the right track." aspect which is under investigation, and this will be one of the items to be dealt with Both Syd McDonald's statement and that in the detailed review of the Act. article show quite clearly the attitude to town-planning of the Liberal members in I commend the Bill to the Committee. this Chamber and elsewhere. They are in it for what they can get out of it. I under­ Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the stand that the aldermen are held responsible Opposition) (9.2 p.m.): The City of Bris­ for the preparation and administration of bane Town Planning Act passed in 1964 has the town plan, and any misgivings as to its already been amended eight times. It was application will be put to them to answer amended in 1967, 1968, 1969 and 1971. In publicly. Even though the plan was sent 1971 the Act was substantially amended to back, the Labor council was returned, and provide for a new town plan-the plan quite clearly returned. Thus I submit the which this Bill seeks to return to the council. people supported the plan. The Act was further amended in 1973, twice It is the Minister's responsibility to get in 1974 and again in 1975. The objects of the plan and make recommendations to the the new Bill are admitted in the Minister's Governor in Council. As he said on 27 speech. It is to empower the Minister February, he could legislate for the to refer back to the council Brisbane's new adoption of the plan with amendments if town plan, or in other words to legalise he considered it appropriate; however, doing what the Minister has already done. He it that way would allow the council to say referred it back just before the Brisbane that it was not its plan or the plan of the City Council election, not because a group citizens of Brisbane, but the Minister's own of members of his own party and their plan or the plan of a few of his own people allies were really concerned about the citizens in a committee here at Parliament House. of Brisbane or planning in Brisbane, but because they thought it would help their One can well understand why the Minister chances to overthrow the Labor city council. is to refer the plan back to the city council How wrong they were. rather than have the 20-strong Government committee of metropolitan members, who have The attitudes of the Liberals in this already had a two-day conference on the Bill, Assembly and elsewhere very clearly indi­ draw up their idea of the plan for Brisbane. It cate why they are involved in politics. I might not necessarily meet the interests of refer particularly to a week-end comment of the citizens of Brisbane-in fact, I believe the new Liberal leader in the city council, it would not do so. 3690 City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill

There is no lawful provision for the plan have another look at the plan and in the to be altered in the joint party room or at 90-day period allowed bring forward plan­ the Liberal Party meeting or at a meeting ning maps for the public to ·look at again? of what I might call the Merrin select As :I understand the Minister's speech, committee. Would this Assembly consider aldermen in council are allowed 90 days to it proper when this same Merrin is consider the proposed plan and then submit engaged as an adviser to companies whose a modified plan for public exhibition. I do activities are influenced by a decision in not think this could be done in 12 months. relation to the town plan? All these people­ I laughed when I heard Syd McDonald say Merrin and the Liberal members in this he would draw up a brand new plan in 12 Chamber-have their lawful rights as citi­ months. I think 90 days would be a zens, and many of them have exercised remarkable achievement. those rights. But they now want to take upon themselves the rights that are not Mr. Byrne: The last one was done in six afforded to other citizens. I cannot remem­ months. ber too many Liberal members taking the plan around their electorates and placing it Mr. BURNS: I know. One of the objec­ on display. We displayed it throughout the tions to it was the speed with which it had Lytton area, in the shopping centres, on to be done. The Minister has reduced the Saturday after Saturday. We assisted people period to 90 days, and 60 days will be to object and to put their proposals in. allowed to the public to consider the Quite a large number of the Liberals spent modified plan. most of their time complaining about a plan It is funny how the State Government, they had never seen. Obviously they, too, when dealing with the town plan, suddenly are in it for what they can get out of it. changes the ideas it expresses about some of After the town plan was prepared and its own authorities. I read the Metropolitan placed on display for public inspection, many Transit Authority legislation, section 67 of bona fide objections were lodged. As weil which states that the public can view the plan as that, several thousand organised objec­ only after it has been approved by Cabinet. tions were lodged. I was one who organised Elected aldermen are strictly prohibited from objections in the Murarrie area and I being members of the authority. The Minis­ brought a deputation to the Minister. I also ter should remember our argument, "Why organised thousands of objections in relation can't we have elected aldermen representing to ·Moreton Island. That is our right; that the Brisbane City Council on the Metro­ is the whole idea of the town-planning legis­ politan Transit Authority?" We were told that lation. That is the system; that is the Brisbane City Council aldermen should not way the system should work. The council have that right and that aldermen from other subsequently looked at these objections and authorities should not be on it; that represen­ passed them on to the Minister. It was up tatives had to be from other bodies or the to the Minister finally to do something about Public Service. them. In an authority controlled by the Govern­ ment, the Government demands that aldermen As "The Courier-Mail" said in August shall not have a say, and that the public can 1975, when referring to the ·town plan and have a say only after the plan has been the campaign that had been conducted produced and approved by Cabinet. But in against it, most damning of all was the the case of an authority that the Government charge that the plan had been prepared has no elected say in-because the aldermen behind closed doors by a select little group are the elected representatives of the people (I suppose this was the Planning Advisory there-the Government is insisting on a Committee), yet after all the public concern completely different set of circumstances. had been expressed, only a handful of Suddenly the Government demands of the people attended the eight sitting days of Brisbane City Council that the aldermen, open debate by Brisbane City Council alder­ because they are the elected representatives men on the town plan. Even the Press bench of the people, shall have a say and that the was sparsely populated during the session. public shall be involved. I agree with public It may have been, as the administration involvement, but I wonder why the Govern­ suggested, that the public at large were ment should change its tune and why there quite happy with the plan and that the should be two sets of rules, one for the dissent had been stirred up by a few old Government and one for the Brisbane City faithful knockers who were present "at every Council. I wonder why public participation council bashing". applies only in someone else's area, but From the comments of aldermen I know never in the Government's own domain. that they will not be upset with the idea of Do the 29,000 objectors now have to go the plan being sent back. I think, however, that to .the further expense of objecting again? the way in which it will be sent back will Is this for the benefit of solicitors and town­ cause a lot of problems. For a start, I do planning consultants or for the public? Will not think the time limit provided will give the objectors have to repeat their objections sufficient time. Do all the 29,000 objectors if the new plan is the same as the one that have to object again? Are our previous is being rejected by the Minister and sent objections still valid, or does the council back to the council? What guarantee do we City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill 3691

have that it is not necessary to refer the to give people in the various areas an oppor­ plan back once again? If we get 40,000 tunity to participate. One of the real problems objectors next time, do we say, "We have in the Act is that, whilst we talk of public 40,000 objectors; we shall send the plan back participation in planning, we really do not again."? How long do we go on like this? give the public much opportunity. I submit The 90 days given to the council is an that there must be the most widespread utterly impossible dream. It indicates that participation on the part of individual someone-possibly the joint parliamentary citizens. Local government should be con­ committee-forced the Minister's hand ducted with maximum public participation because of a complete lack of understanding and this has been recognised by political of the subject. A town planner with 20 years' philosophers. local government experience told me that such Mr. Lindsay: What about the Labor a job in such a short time is virtually council? impossible. I believe that to be so. I wonder why the Minister has not used Mr. BURNS: Like this Parliament, the public inquiry provisions of the City of councils are not places where there is public Brisbane Town Planning Act. When I was con­ participation. 1bere is no public particpation sidering public involvement and the Govern­ in this Parliament. At times the Public ment's so-called concern that people should Gallery is full of children who are dragged have a say, I read section 4 of the City of in here every day by their local members to Brisbane Town Planning Act. In spite of the try to get a few votes out of their parents. The many objections to the plan submitted, the extent of public participation in this Parliament Minister does not need to introduce a new can be seen in the gallery here tonight. If the Act to help him. He failed to take the action Government wants the people to be involved open to him under the City of Brisbane Town in the plan 2.s it affects their back yards, Planning Act. One would think that amending their streets, th:: transport in their area, where legislation would be necessary only when their local shopping centres are to be and the prov1sions of existing legislation were where the local sports fields are to be, it found wanting. The Act specifically provides has to take the plan to the people. that the Minister may appoint a person to hold a public inquiry into a town-planning One of the great problems of the plan was scheme and objections to it. Section 4 (16) its lack of ava;lability as a printed document. and (17} are very important. Subsection 16 If the Government is really interested in reads- bringing the public into this, why not use the Government Printer to produce copies of "The Minister may, if he deems the the plan and make brochures availab1e? What circumstances so warrant, refer any brochures were put out by the department aspects of the proposed new Plan to some to tell the people how the plan would affect competent person appointed by him in them? When a person tried to find out about that behalf to inquire into the matter and the roads that were dotted on the plan, he had make such report as having regard to the to get a pen out himself and copy them circumstances of the case and the public because no copies were available from the interest he deems proper. A person department. appointed under this subsection shall for ,the purposes of the inquiry have and may Mr. Byrne: They were not supposed to exercise all the powers, authorities, protec­ be there in the first place. tion and jurisdiction of a commission under The Commissions of Inquiry Acts Mr. BURNS: That's the bit that annoys 1950-1954, but the Minister shall not be me. It is claimed that the people should bound by any such report." not have known about those dotted lines! We were sending out surveyors and drawing Subsection 17 says- lines through areas where there were houses "An inquiry to which subsection 16 of and then, when someone saw these dotted this section refers may be heard in public lines on the map, we were told that the and all the matters into which a person is people should not have been told-that that appointed to inquire may be dealt with was a terrible action by the Labor council. together." What a terrible, dirty trick, to advise the Why can't we use these amendments in the people where the roads might go in their 1971 Act? Why didn't the Minister use those area. powers? He was strongly urged by profes­ What a remarkable change of tactics! A sional groups to do so. The advice and moment ago the Minister was telling us that suggestions of the same professional groups he wanted public ;participation, that he were accepted by some of the Minister's wanted the people to be involved in the town predecessors and by the Minister for Survey, plan. Now the honourable member for Valuation, Urban and Regional Affairs. I Belmont tells us that we should not have believe that the Minister cannot disdain this told people about the proposed freeways and advice. the proposed roads in their areas. He says One of the ideas I saw and welcomed in that the map should not have been exhibited England when the authorities over there like that. I submit it should have been exactly were talking about redistribution of boun­ the other way. I want to know about every daries was the setting up of local inquiries plan that is being made for my area. If I 3692 City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill

live in the area, I should be told about the Mr. BURNS: The honourable member changes to be made. Only the Liberal Party was elected as a member for his area, but wanted to hide it. most people from his area ring me up because they can't ever find him at home,. We will find out how important public participation is to the Liberal Party when Of course aldermen are elected for that we see whether they are prepared to spend purpose, but so are the members of this any of the Government Printer's money or Parliament. The pile of booklets that come any of the money of other Government through the Justice Department are provided departments on producing material and by the Government for the assistance of making it available. Or will they order some­ people outside. With the paper war that one else to do it? Will they order another becomes necessary to keep the elected repre­ authority-the Brisbane City Council, the sentative informed, the alderman for the aldermen or the ratepayers to pay? In Waterloo Bay ward, for instance, with 26,000 essence, this whole exercise has been a pro­ people in his area, can hardly be expected duct of the back-room boys of the Liberal to wander round from door to door and Party-a product of the members of Parlia­ explain to each elector personally. ment who sat down here in a joint com­ I took the plan around my electorate every mittee and decided that they wanted the plan Saturday morning for weeks and probably referred back. Now they are going to say one-third of the electorate saw it. The only to the ratepayers of Brisbane, "Pay for it.", way to get the information to the other two­ but they are really not changing any of the thirds of the electorate is to take a leaf out provisions at all. In fact, they are allowing a of the book of the Health Department and shorter period to handle the plan than was send out printed material and information. provided under the old planning provisions Why can't we send out brochures as the when they were produced. Department of Health does? Why can't we If the Local Government Department has get brochures into the schools so that the kiddies can take them home to their parents the ultimate authority in deciding the final and tell them, "This is what is going to draft of the plan, it should also assist in happen to our area under the town plan." ensuring that the public know how the plan If the Government is talking about public will affect them. As I said, the State Gov­ participation, isn't this the way to involve the ernment should assist. We should be assisting public? Isn't this the way to keep people through the Government Printer. informed? Let me make a suggestion. No-one has It is no good saying, "Let's have it in the raised it, but I discovered it myself when basement of the City Hall." Take it out into going into my area in street meetings or the suburbs. People do not shop in town any at shopping centres with the plan. What more. The plan will be displayed on one day aboat migrants? It is hard enough for between 10 a.m. and 8 p.m. and on every those of us who go down to look at the other day from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. What plan to find out what is to happen in our about the working man and his wife? How own areas to understand what is really meant are they going to get to see it? Why can't it by some of the subsections of the plan. be taken to the various ward offices? Why Migrant people who can hardly read English can't it be taken around the shopping centres find themselves in the basement of the City as a mobile display? And that will not mean Hall, or call to see their members, with no only 90 days or 60 days of public display. comprehension of what is to happen in their Planning is one of the most important pro­ areas. Some areas have large ethnic com­ cesses that we have. It deals with all of the munities. We know that they are there. pollution problems and all of the problems There is no reason why we could not produce with noise-if ever noisy Russ gets his Bill some dodgers in the ethnic language. That out of the joint party room and into Parlia­ is a matter for the Local Government Depart­ ment. Most of the problems can be solved ment. I think it is a matter that has to go by planning zones with residential areas away a little above the council, because it is our from working areas. responsibility. The biggest problem facing the city of Finally, the Local Government Department Brisbane results from a lack of planning many really has the last say on the plan, because, years ago. We must not push this aside for no matter what the council agrees to, the a while and play politics with it. We have to Minister has the final say. The final say forget politics for a while and step in. This rests here. The buck stops here. If the is our capital city. We will be involved in it. buck stops here, we ought to be prepared to We will be spending money on transport, and assist people to understand what we are where money will be spent on trains, buses doing, to understand what might happen to and other forms of transport will be decided them and to make it very clear to them how by the planning authorities, many a time in the town plan will affect them in their homes. our absence. Someone will decide today to in their occupations and in their particular set up a large industrial estate or a residen­ areas. tial area. Then people there will demand trams, trains, buses or some other form of Mr. Byrne: Isn't that what the aldermen transport. Then we will be charged with the were elected for-to have a look at it? responsibility. The requests will come here, City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill 3693 the petitions will come here, and the requests planners because the Lord Mayor did not for pollution control will come here-all wish to plan ahead. All he wanted to do was because of a lack of planning. update the ad hoc approvals that had been The council will welcome the idea of granted during previous years. The planners taking the plan back. But I feel we are only wanted to plan ahead, and it is very obvious stalling. We need to have a closer look that in odd areas they did so. But in major at what we are doing with the town plan of areas there was this conflict. Then we had Brisbane. the conflict between the council and the Government; the Government wanting to Mr. CHINCHEN (Mt. Gravatt) (9.23 p.m.): protect the rights of the individual and the Again we are dealing with a proposed Bill to council wanting to take these rights out of amend the town-planning legislation. I am the hands of the people. These problems have inclined to think that we should have realised shown up right .through all areas of this by now that we cannot have good planning planning scheme. It is really a disgrace. merely by legislation. There must be a will There were 29,000 objections to the plan. to bring about good planning. What has There would have been thousands more if been lacking is not legislation but the will to the people had known that the planning plan progressively and sensibly. We have been scheme did not consist only of maps but also through the process time and again to help of written documents, and .that it was in the council by pointing out how to undertake those written documents that the council was planning in an up-to-date, sensible manner. tahng excessive power and denying the This was done mainly in the 1971 amend­ rights of individuals. The people did not ments. know this and many still do not know it It is interesting to look at the history of today. I.t was in the statement of intent; it the matter. In October 1961 we had an was in the Order in Council; and it was in exhibition of the first town-planning scheme the schedules and the ordinances. So we had to be generally adopted. In December 1965 the problem that the people did not know the first town-planning scheme for the city that they could object to the written word. of Brisbane was gazetted. In July 1969 the This document was also difficult to find at Brisbane City Council placed on exhibition the City Hall. As far as I know, there was one an amended town-planning scheme. In 1971 copy and it was very hard to find. But the the Parliament amended the City of Brisbane people looked at the maps thinking this was Town Planning Act to require the council to the planning scheme. It was not, of course. prepare a new town-planning scheme by They were just maps showing roads and 1974. It was given three years to carry out zoning propositions, with no forward planning that task. That Act prescribed the general at all. Because the Lord Mayor of the day form and the content of such a scheme. In did not believe in showing the next five February 1974 the amendments were gazetted. years of residential development or any other Also in February 1974 the Brisbane City development in certain directions, he put in Council applied for and was granted an "future urban"-and "future urban" only. extension of 12 months in which to prepare a Then, right throughout the plan, we found new town-planning scheme. In February that the amendments of 1971 were not faith­ 1975 the new town-planning scheme was fully observed. One of the requirements of placed on exhibition. these amendments was an economic assess­ In 1971 we endeavoured by modern amend­ ment to show that what was proposed could ments to set out the design for a sensible be paid for by this city by some means or town-planning scheme. But what did we get? other. But this did not happen; it was totally We got something that as a town-planning ignored. It was rather funny that the whole scheme was almost totally incomprehensible. central business district of the city was not It was really unbelievable. Starting off with planned at all. Why would this be so? Why the statement of intent, the first half of this should there be a big black-out of planning in document is a matter of great political import. the heart of the city? This was the area It compromised the Government and it could where at least certain levels should have been never have been approved. This must have established so that if we wanted overhead been known by the author of such a docu­ pathways similar levels could have been ment. There was some sort of a planning established and .these could be developed. scheme at the end of this document, but when There was nothing at all done for the we go through the whole planning scheme we planning of the centre of the city. find there is an endeavour to take away the We found there were new approaches to rights of the people. such things as council charges. Here we I was a member of a committee of metro­ found that the council had passed ordinances politan members who put in a lot of time to establish an entirely new charging system. in an endeavour to ascertain what was This has nothing to do with Parliament; we behind this scheme-to find out what it was have no say in this. They took it upon them­ all about-and the further we went into it selves to establish these new charging the more difficult the investigations became. methods which the citizen knew nothing There seemed to be big problems, and I think about. I doubt if many people would have the first was the conflicts .that existed in aJ.l objected to this because they did not know directions. There was obviously a conflict the written word could be objected to. I between the then Lord Mayor and the think the point cannot be emphasised too 3694 City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 19761 Plan Modification Bill

much that the council endeavoured in effect planning and in discussing with people in to get control of the land in the city of their wards planning intentions and sorting Brisbane by the written word and by subtle matters out, not only will the public will not movements in regard to schedules and so on. prevail but the people will not know of the The people were totally befuddled by this. planning alternatives and will not have their They did not know what was happening, and say. When that occurs, we will see better the only people who objected in this area planning. would have been professional bodies who I had the good fortune to hear a talk by have studied in great depth the enormous a Canadian planner who told the audience of number of words that were tossed into the the large amount of public participation that planning scheme. takes place in planning in the city in which he I think the whole .thing has been a lives, which is a large city in Canada. I disaster, and I am a little worried that the asked him, "After all .this, how many approach we are making now, which I think objections would you get?" He said, "Our is the only one which can be made at this plan comes up for consideration every five moment, will be too late. I do agree that the years. The day after one plan is approved, time is short. Because of .the treatment of the planning starts and it progresses for their previous planning staff, I do not think another five years. At the end of that the council has the ability to attract good period we will get 500 or 600 objections."­ planners and I do not think they will have not 29,000! the staff to do .this work. However, there are many consultants, and I hope that the council There are so many faults in ·this plan will be wise and engage consultants to do that I would not have time to enumerate this work. Then we might get somewhere. them-non-conforming uses; 14 areas of the plan that can be changed by resolution of It is amazing that in the statement of the council; enormous problems of parks and intent one finds the very question raised by open spaces because ·the council can use the Leader of the Opposition-the question these at its will. There are so many things of public involvement. It is stated that this wrong with the plan that it is beyond is catered for by a committee that meets explanation. After due consideration, I periodically to consider large matters of personally came to the cone! usion that the planning significance to this city. The people answer surely would be community assess­ were not involved at all. I can tell the ment-in other words, to have a situation Committee the s·tory of one man whom I in which the council can be cross-examined know who went to a meeting of the Plan­ about why it has done a certain thing in a ning Advisory Commi.ttee. As soon as he certain way, and in which people who object walked in he was asked his name, why he to a certain thing can express their thoughts was there, and who invited him. He gave and those who do not object can also express his name and said, "I haven't been invited. their thoughts. Ultimately, out of all that, I've just come along to see what happens would come a distillation of what would be here." He was asked, "What are you par­ very sensible planning. ticularly interested in?" He said, "Nothing. I have just come to see the work you are There are very big problems, of course, doing." under the objection scheme, because the council, or ultimately •the Minister, has to Mr. K. J. Hooper: You sent him. decide what is a reasonable number of Mr. CHINC.HEN: I did nothing of the objections to cause a change in the plan. Is sort. This gentleman, who was well known 800 the number? Is 2,000 the number? in business circles, went there simply to see Quite often one objection could be valid and what was being done. He was told, "Well, make a change of the plan necessary. An you should be invited by the chairman." He arbitrary decision has to be m::tde. That is said, "I am sorry. I didn't know that." He a cause for worry when one works under was told, "You can stay here for 10 or 15 the objection system. There might be 5,000 minutes. If you want to come along in objections in one area; but if .those objections future, please get in touch with .the chair­ are accepted, how do the other 15,000 people man for an invitation." For the 10 or 15 -the silent majority-have their say? Do we minutes that he was there, no work was accept 5,000? The answer might be, "No, done, so he left not knowing what was going that's too many. What about 1,000? What on. As far as the Brisbane City Council is about 10? What about 20?" In the ultim­ concerned, that is public participation. ate, it means that somebody is making very arbitrary decisions. That must be done by I think you know as well as I do, Mr. a member of the Minister's department. Here Hewitt, that the aldermen of the city of we have a person who is hearing only one Brisbane did not see the town plan until 9 o'clock on the morning in February when it side of .the story. He can look at the object­ went on exhibition. I have heard that from ions but he does not know what the other three or four aldermen myself. There is people think. If an objection is made those not only the question of public participation; other people do not have a say. These are there is also a lack of aldermanic participa­ the problems. tion, and the aldermen are the representatives I compliment the people who arranged of the people. Until ,the stage is reached at the seminar at the Queensland University. which aldermen are totally involved in I did not see one member of the Opposition City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill 3695

at that seminar where the type of thing I is not working." But it is going to work. am speaking about was carried out. Pro­ With that in mind, I am quite sure we will fessor Gates was the commissioner, and he receive much better planning. had an assistant. There was legal help on I think the new council will have a much both sides. The council was well represented better approach to planning. It will need to by a chief planner. The plan was pulled to get staff or consultants who can do the work pieces. The two-day seminar was handled in a hurry. It is unfortunate that public well. It would probably take two or three participation will be impossible, but if the months to do the whole thing properly, but aldermen apply their minds to this task they out of that two-day seminar came real sense. will be able to improve on the shocking mess If the Minister had accepted

therefore quite destructive of the best interests These statements are quite perverse because of the city and its citizens. Parliament it is the Brisbane City Council that hag clearly intended in the wording of the 1971 always tried to produce propositions that amendment that the statement of intent ignore the rights of the citizen, and it is this should provide an acceptable justification for Government which has tried consistently­ what otherwise would be a series of land by a number of measures, particularly amend­ propositions, which, as I say, might be in ments to the Act-to give the citizen the mutual conflict. rights he is entitled to receive and expects The statement of intent that is the basis, to receive. the prelude, the core, the heart of this The objectives of the plan are stated in town plan, which we are sending back to the vaguest and most grandiose terms. I shall the council, is a grotesque parody of what cite a few of them so that the Committee the 1971 Act required. All it does is exploit may know that I am not speaking in generali­ for political ends the expectation that such ties. For instance, the objectives of the plan a statement would responsibly set out the include this phrase "to provide for orderly plan's major objectives and how it is pro­ development". What in the name of heaven posed those objectives would be achieved. I is "orderly development"? Another phrase presume this statement of intent was Alder­ is "to safeguard the proper use of land". man Jones' swan-song, his great gift to What the devil does that mean? Yet another posterity. It wanders and waffles on for is "to remove from the plan those open space about 8,000 words without the appendices, areas which serve no useful purpose". What and is written in the vaguest of terms-­ does that mean? These things are capable all suggesting the widest range of determina­ of any interpretation. And they are capable tion by the council that one could possibly of the most devilish interpretation in terms imagine. of the best interests of the people! If this statement of intent had been This statement of intent, written largely accepted, all those areas where currently the by the past Lord Mayor of Brisbane, was so Act gives the citizen the right of appeal deliberately generalised that it contains a against injustice would have been obliterated. host of terms that would have to be accepted The council would have made its own deter­ as justification of what is proposed in the minations of what was to be done and how structural plan and the various maps. If it was to be done, and the citizen would they had to be accepted I can only say have had no right of redress whatsoever. heaven help Brisbane because nothing else I say it is a great shame that people were could do so. not made aware before the election of what The structure plan itself-the main plan this town plan would have meant to them. on which all the others are based-is almost We must remember that the statement of a casual document. It appears as if some­ intent is part of the statutory plan; hence body dashed it off in half an hour of every word of it and every phrase of it abstracted thought. It consists of only six would become susceptible to legal interpre­ pages and a single coloured map which was tation and definition in any action that arose on separate display at the time. Yet that out of the plan. If we read this state­ is supposed to embody the basic planning ment of intent and see the waffie in it­ concept that the council has to use in its deliberate vagueness and extraordinary exercising its myriad discretions. As we know, confusion of words-we can well imagine any application not conforming to the basic the lawyers' harvest that the document would structure plan would be headed for rejection. have provided in any argument following With a total inadequacy in the structure plan, this town plan. the council has tried to enlarge its discretion­ ary area almost to infinity. That was not It even attempts to give the history of understood very well by people. Brisbane on which it proposes to erect this monolithic type of control in the name of I believe that similar assumptions are to planning, and even the history is not correct. be made in terms of transportation because The first job I had was assistant to the we have reached the stage where transporta­ Assistant Under Secretary in the Home Secre­ tion is not now a major aspect of council tary's Department, Mr. Charles Chuter, when responsibility. It seems to me quite incon­ this City of Brisbane Act was drafted. I ceivable that a town plan should be drawn knew what the purpose of it was and what up that attempts to determine transport the socialist propositions behind it were. corridors-hence growth patterns-and be The Act has certainly fulfilled them. As completely at variance with a transportation I say, sentence after sentence in the docu­ plan developed by the Metropolitan Transit ment contains a tacit denial of all the rate­ Authority. People could be totally misled payers' rights. None of us on this side by this town plan unless the authority was of the Chamber are prepared to accept that. prepared to accept in toto what the council planned. And that is not very likely. The We see constantly in this statement of town plan, as presented, took no responsi­ intent suggestions that the council has tried bility at all for the fact that many of the hard to get a workable plan but has been assumptions on transport {and therefore much stymied because the Government has stalled of the planning flowing from those assump­ it-that it has been hamstrung in its tions) had no relation whatever to fact. endeavours by State Government pressure. Unless the new transit authority acknowledges City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill 3697 that the council has pre-eminence in the Mr. AKERS (Pine Rivers) (9.52 p.m.): I field, all those assumptions were so many agree whole-heartedly with both of the pre­ empty words and useless lines on pretty vious speakers on the Government side. This maps. If the council had been able to deter­ Bill sees the last direct influence of one of mine what the transit authority has to deter­ the most contradictory personalities in any mine, it would have been a case of the level of government in Queensland. The man cart leading the horse with a vengeance and who produced this plan is a dichotomy of that, of course, was not acceptable. socialism and capitalism. He made his money We must accept that the statement of intent through exploiting the free-enterprise system shows very clearly that the council intended we have in Queensland and then set out to to use its Planning Advisory Committee as establish a dictatorial and socialist adminis­ a device to pretend that there was public tration in Brisbane. participation in planning whilst, in fact, it The Brisbane Town Plan submitted by exercised quite monolithic control. For any­ the previous city council was a classic example body to suggest that the ordinary citizen is of hoodwinkery-a town plan that was pro­ represented in planning by a committee that duced by an illegal committee of basically in fact represents only special-interest groups unelected members-basically unelected yes­ is in my view totally unrealistic. men. It was thrust at members of a council The plan was like an onion. As one layer who were too stupid to stand up for their own was peeled off, another layer was found rights; too much like sheep to demand that underneath and another layer under that. they see the plan before they approved it. In his speech the Leader of the Opposition Mr. Lamont: And it made you cry, too. said that he organised objections to the plan. Mr. PORTER: It made one weep tears of The hilarious situation we had was that mem­ blood, almost, when one realised the signifi­ bers of the Brisbane City Council who had cance of it all. There was no doubt that the approved the plan-in fact, voted unanimously Minister had no option whatever but to send for it-were also organising objections to it. the plan back to the council and require that In many cases they led the objections. They all aldermen accept their responsibility-their were screaming about Moreton Island and proper elective responsibility-and do the job about things that were happening in the Ash­ of considering and approving the plan. He grove electorate. could not accept this ridiculous nonsense that Mr. Lindsay: Such as the quarry. we had with the rejected plan, which was produced by the Lord Mayor in the morning. Mr. AKERS: Yes, such as the quarry. None of the aldermen had seen it before, yet The men who had to approve this plan, who they were required to approve it that day. did not have the sense to stand up and say, What a piece of dangerous and fantastic non­ "We want to see it before it is approved", sense that is. organised the objections to it. This Bill is So the plan goes back to council-a better­ absolutely necessary because nobody who had balanced council-with an Opposition that will anything to do originally with the City of keep the party in office in the council on its Brisbane Town Planning Act and any of its toes. I say, without doubt-and the member amendments could ever have imagined a for Mt. Gravatt referred to it-that when the group of elected members of a council dele­ town plan comes back it must have a properly gating to a secret, unelected committee the written statement of intent-one which is process and the powers granted to them under precise, which is brief, which is terse and that Act. Nobody could have envisaged when which is in accord with the requirements of drawing up the legislation that a group of the 1971 amendment. It must be based on elected representatives would do something a proper economic assessment-and particu­ like that. larly of possible compensation costs, which The town plan was a great conglomeration could run anywhere between $300,000,000 of mistakes, poor planning decisions and and $2,000 million. It should have studies socialist controls. The obvious limitations supporting clear statements of standards and controls such as .that limiting viable, required, such as sports grounds with enclosed existing, non-conforming uses to seven years' open space for 1,000 people, and so on. There life were only the tip of the iceberg. The should be a realistic structure plan as the statement of intent was described very aptly basis of it all, evolved out of intensive study by the honourable member for Toowong. over at least 12 to 18 months. We accept Far from being a guide to the interpretation that they have got to do a job in six months, of the plan, as was intended by the legislation, but over the long haul this structure plan it was riddled with political propaganda, must be properly produced, because only personal opinions of the writer and plain then can the plan's conclusions remain reason­ untruths. I shall not go into detail. The ably valid for any extended period. honourable member for Toowong has very As I say, undoubtedly the plan must be effectively covered this matter. presented in a way that will enable it to be No planner or court in the future could understood by the people and that will enable possibly use this statement of intent as even it to be understood and properly interpreted the slightest indication of what was intended in a court of law. The Bill is absolutely neces­ under the plan. That is what a statement of sary and the Minister is to be commended for intent is for. It says what the council intends bringing it before us. the plan to do so as to give future courts and 3698 City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill

planners some idea of what was intended and considerable .trouble to understand the to allow the interpretation of those points intentions of the megalomaniac who produced that are not clear in the plan in accordance the plan, yet the Leader of the Opposition with the intention of the council when the took around a map and showed it to his plan was produced. constituents as the full plan. No effort was made in the plan to provide I whole-heartedly support the introduction some life in the central district. No indication of the Bill and the comments of both of the was given of any proposal for unification, Government speakers. I decry the attitude as was mentioned by the honourable member of the Leader of the Opposition and urge the for Mt. Gravatt, or co-ordination of designs. Committee to approve the introduction of There was no proposal for pedestrian malls the Bill immediately. and nothing else to ind;cate how the heart of the city was to develop beyond a bland Mr. MILLER (Ithaca) (10 p.m.): I would statement on car-parking stations around the like to join with other metropolitan mem­ perimeter of the city. This plan should have bers in congratulating the Minister for intro­ been rejected by the aldermen in council; ducing this very necessary Bill. I think indeed, it should have been rejected by the it is fair to say that every metropolitan Planning Advisory Committee because it was member was opposed to the new town plan obviously thrust onto it before it reached the which was put on public exhibition on 28 council. February 1975. It worries me that the Leader of the Oppo­ Mr. Moore: Metropolitan Government sition said that he showed the plan around his members. electorate. This indicates a basic misunder­ standing and lack of understanding of what Mr. MILLER: Yes, metropolitan Govern· the plan is all about. ment members, because at that time I under­ stood the members of the Opposition to be An Honourable Member: A few maps is in favour of the introduction of it, even all he showed. though we are now told by the Leader of Mr. AKERS: A few maps. But the Bris­ the Opposition that he went round his elec· bane Town Plan consists of an Order in torate showing the map-- Council containing the schedules where the Mr. Byrne: I will tell you some more real problems occur, the ordinances and the about that later. statement of intent. I bet he did not show them around the Lytton electorate. All that Mr. MILLER: I will be very interested to he showed was some drawings with some hear what the honourable member for Bel­ lines on them. People could look at them mont has to say. The legislation before the and say, "Isn't he a nice fellow for showing Committee tonight is very necessary indeed. us what the town plan is and organising The Leader of the Opposition has stated objections to it?" that nobody went along to the city council An Honourable Member interjected. to listen to the debate on the new town plan for the city o£ Brisbane and he surmised Mr. AKERS: Yes, he showed where the from this that the people of Brisbane were red lines were so that they could come into satisfied with the new town plan. I agree it, and he gained a few votes there. with all the previous speakers who said What worries me greatly is that that is that those people did not read the state­ the attitude of the Leader of the Opposition, ment of intent; that they did not read the of the aldermen and of many other people ordinances; and that they just had a look in Brisbane. That was all that the council at a plan and said to themselves, "This allowed the people to believe. The Leader plan looks all right to me. It is not going of the Opposition and members of his party to affect my block of land, so it is going were racing all over the place saying, "This to be all right." But I wonder how many is the plan for Brisbane. We are showing you people living in the electorate of Lytton the plan." What they were showing was less would be able to tell me the definition of than a quarter of it, and the part that really "municipal purpose", "public purpose", "open did not matter. space" or "sport and recreation". I do not It is no use saying that only 1,500 think many people in the whole of Brisbane, objections to properties were lodged and that let alone the electorate of Lytton, would therefore the plan was all right. Very few be able to give the definitions of those terms, citizens of Brisbane were able to read the because they did not have the opportunity written documents with the plan, even if they to study the statement of intent and to were able to obtain a set of .them. I might say, as did the Government metropolitan point out that they were horribly expensive members, that that was where the danger to buy. lay. The danger lay in the statement of intent and the ordinances which had to The rezoning of land to the detriment of be read in conjunction with the maps that owners without any thought of compensation were put on display in the city hall. and similar injustices are the really dangerous areas of the plan that were in those written I wonder if the lord mayor of the day, documents that the Leader of the Opposition Alderman J ones, ever costed the implemen­ did not show his constituents. I had to go to tation of that plan he submitted to this City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill 3699

Government as the new town plan. I hope when the council is not sitting, the Estab­ that the Minister will expect the present lord lishment and Co-ordination Committee can­ mayor, when he submits an amended town not become, in effect, the council and cannot plan, to submit with it an actual costing consider the town plan in isolation. of its implementation, because surely as a As I understood what the Minister said, Government and as an Opposition we want he would like to see the council become to know what this new town plan is going a committee of the whole and discuss the to cost the citizens of Brisbane. I for matter in open debate in public. In my one am not prepared to blindly say, "The opinion, that would be the best thing that new town plan is acceptable to me", if I could happen for the citizens of Brisbane. I think for one moment that the people of want to see the Labor aldermen and the Brisbane cannot afford to pay for it. So Liberal aldermen in the Brisbane City I want the Minister firstly to ensure that the Council debate the new town plan in front of new lord mayor submits with the amended the people of Brisbane. What fairer v. ay town plan a costing of its implementation. of doing it could there be? I do not want What is it going to cost if the council is the Establishment and Co-ordination Com­ going to resume all the land along the river? mittee having power, as Cabinet has, to run What is it going to cost to resume open off into a room somewhere and make decis­ space owned by individuals, because as far ions on the new town plan. The Minister as I am concerned the people who own even said that the Bill does not preclude the land in the metropolitan area, or any other council, at a special meeting, from resolving area of Queensland for that matter-but we itself into a committee of the whole council are dealing with the city of Brisbane at which, under its ordinances, will still consist the moment-will have to be paid for that of members only and be open to 'the public. land, its value as residential land, if it is That is what I want. I do not want the going to be resumed by the Brisbane City E~tablishment and Co-ordination Committee Council, whether it is for open space, road­ to become that committee because the council ways or for any other purpose. As far is in recess. as I am concerned, any plan that comes I support the claim by the Leader of the before this Chamber will have to be costed. Opposition that the council is not being given I tmderstood the Minister to say that sufficient time to prepare ,the modified plan. upon receipt of the new town plan by the I do not believe, Mr. Hewitt, that we can town clerk, he is required to have prepared expect the new council, bearing in mind that the Lord Mayor has to submit a budget in for presentation to the council submissions excess of $300,000,000 by the end of relevant to the preparation of the modified June-- plan. The Minister went on to say that, at a special meeting or special meetings of Mr. Akers: He has never had any experi­ the council called for that purpose, the coun­ ence. cil is required to prepare a modified plan, Mr. MILLER: He has not had any experi­ and in doing so to consider the new plan, ence. However, putting that to one side, I do the guide-lines provided by the Minister, and not believe that we as a Government can all other matters it considers to be warranted expect the new council to submit a budget of in the presentation of the modified plan, over $300,000,000-larger than the budget including any submissions caused by the for the State of Tasmania-and at the same town clerk to be prepared. ,time consider and discuss an amended town plan for submission to the Government within The Bill makes it clear that consideration 90 days. I do not think rthat any council of the new plan, the guide-lines, etc., shall could be expected to do that. not come within the functions of any stand­ ing committee or special committee of the When the plan comes back from the council. council, I hope that the Government will have before it an operating plan for the If one looks at the definition of "standing city of Brisbane for the next seven years; committee" one finds in the ordinances of the but we cannot expect the council to produce city of Brisbane that a standing committee a plan that is acceptable to 'the Government covers all committees-the Finance Com­ if we do not give it sufficient time. mittee, the Works Committee, the Health I hope that the Minister will make it quite Committee, the Transport and Electricity clear in his reply that the Establishment and Committee, the Planning and Building Com­ Co-ordination Comrnittee will not have the mittee-including the Establishment and Co­ power, when the council goes into recess, to ordination Committee. As I understand it, operate as a council, because he has stated the Establishment and Co-ordination Com­ specifically that the council itself must make mittee is similar to the Cabinet in this Gov­ deliberations on the new town plan. ernment. When Parliament is in recess, Cab­ inet becomes the Government of the day and Mr. LAMONT (South Brisbane) (10.9 operates as the Government. I want rthe p.m.): In common with other speakers Minister to make i·t quite clear to me that from this side of the Chamber, I can only no standing committee or special committee say that the town plan-if one can euphemis­ will consider the town plan in isola,tion; that tically ca:ll it a "plan"-is the greatest 3700 City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill

conglomeration of examples of autocracy, word-of that set of documents would neces­ insensibility, arrogance and ignorance that I sarily severely and seriously injure the have ever seen put together by a group of interest of some ratepayers. But was a people purporting to constitute a govern­ basis of compensation clearly set out in ment in any sphere in Australia. The the town plan? Did the Labor aldermen aldermen accepted that ramshackle collection voice their concern that, if there was to be a of charts and documents as a plan; and plan affecting the interests of ratepayers and they accepted it in one morning. It was citizens of Brisbane, then there ought to be typical Labor Party direction of what rank­ a plan within that plan to set out the and-file members would accept. When they basis for compensation? Did they show saw the hue and cry they tried to back­ that concern for the people? No. They pedal. I am tempted to say that they were quite willing to take the money from revealed themselves as nothing but a bunch the people; they were quite willing to spend of stool-pigeons. Luckily we have in this the money wildly and in a spend-thrift Chamber a group of people who constitute manner, but they had no concern about a committee known as the Metropolitan laying a basis for compensation for those Members Committee, and we were able to injuriously affected by the contents of the put a "cat" among the stool-pigeons. plan. Mr. K. J. Hooper: Who is the chairman What of the statement of intent? Surely, of that committee? taking the language of those three words, the statement of intent should lay out clearly for Mr. LAMONT: If the honourable mem­ anyone to see what was the intention of the ber does not know, he is derelict in his council. Now, the council displayed some responsibilities as a metropolitan member. maps, but there was nothing on any of those Let him circulate that in Archerfield. He has maps that showed, for example, a riverside been here so long and he lives in the metro­ drive. Yet we saw in the wording of the politan area but he does not know who is town plan that people could not erect build­ the chairman of the Metropolitan Members ings or make changes to structures within Committee. Disgusting! 100 feet of the river. We knew from things that were said out­ The plan was supposed to be something side the council that there was a clear intent which told us of what was going to be in the minds of some people who had a Brisbane's destiny in the forthcoming decade great deal of influence over this so-called plan or more. It was all passed in one morning. to have a riverside drive. But there was When anybody puts up a plan which will nothing in the town plan that really stated that cost other people money, one of the first clear intention, and nothing was shown on the duties is to price it. But did they do that? maps for the people to view about a river­ No. We saw no costing. The cost has been side drive. And that is dishonest-plainly since estimated-give or take several million dishonest-and misleading government. I fear dollars-at about $500,000,000. With infla­ I use the word "government" euphemistically tion and the amount of time that obviously in this context also. it would take to implement such a plan, the cost could be much higher than that. When I look at the way this would have affected residents along the river in my elec­ Let us say, however, that it would be torate, particularly in the vicinity of Mow­ $500,000,000. In one morning the council bray Park, it is quite clear that there was an approved something that aldermen had not intention that there would be a riverside drive, studied, had no knowledge of, had not which would lop off the front of properties bothered to price and which subsequently 'along the river there. Also, it was quite clear turned out would cost the ratepayers of that a traffic corridor that was originally plan­ Brisbane a sum of money that they col­ ned to cut through Mowbray Park, which lectively could not possibly put together, would have then prevented mothers from send­ even if they did desire the Labor city ing their children to play there and probably council to spend that kind of money to would have deterred pensioners from strolling reorganise their city. The Labor Party alder­ in the park in the afternoon, was 15 ft. wider men showed that they had learned nothing than Laidlaw Parade, which it linked up with. at all from the mistakes of their Federal It was quite clear that the future intent of colleagues, learned nothing from the results the council was to lop 15 ft. off the frontages of an election which showed how unpopular of homes in Laidlaw Parade and that, by the it is for Governments to spend madly, badly, time it had made its riverside drive and wildly and blindly other people's money, extended that traffic corridor so that it had an and that they had learned nothing from alternative route to the new port of Brisbane the errors of Whitlam. Thus, in one morning, suburbs, the people in that area would have according to the direction from where direc­ had little room to pitch a tent on their tions in the Labor Party come, they approved remaining land. There was nothing in the the plan-if we can call it that-for Brisbane, statement of intent about that-and that is a plan which would cost hundreds of millions dishonest. of dollars but which they had not bothered Let us have a further look through the plan, to co~t. not the plan that was actually on display, Any plan that had the grandoise ambi­ but through the words and documents asso­ tions-"pretensions" is probably a better ciated with it. There was nothing in the City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill 3701 maps that the people of Brisbane could look to take them home to study them-that in at to show them there was a schedule at the 1961 there were 2.4 acres available per back of the plan, Schedule C, which allowed thousand head of population, while today the council the right to use open space and only .8 of an acre is available per thousand parkland for certain purposes without notifica­ population. In other words, local parks­ tion to the residents of the area. It dispensed those that really matter to the community­ with the need for publication of the intention have declined to the extent that only one­ of the council as to how it would dispose of third of the area is left. What has happened open space and parkland in a suburb. to the rest? Like the open space I spoke That is bad enough. However, in the of earlier, it has been disposed of by the schedule we see there were four uses to which council for its own good profit. And now open space could be put without notification the council wants to be able to legislate to to the people of the area-if that plan had go ahead with that sort of procedure without been accepted. They looked innocuous even notifying residents of what is happening enough. Two of them interested me. One to the local parks. was "Municipal purposes"; the other was The documents then went on to talk about "Public purposes". parks as if they were buffer zones. Swamp Mr. Miller: There's no difference. areas beside creeks were to be counted in the acreage to boost the statistic. So the dis­ Mr. LAMONT: No difference-its all ver­ honesty was perpetuated. biage. Intent to be dishonest was the only statement of intent we got. It was perfectly What was displayed for the people of obvious that the layman was intended to put Brisbane to look at? A group of maps! Not together in his own mind that "public pur­ the statements of intent-that were mislead­ pose" and "municipal purpose" might have ing, anyway-not the ordinances or the Order meant a public lavatory in a park or perhaps in Council, but a bunch of maps. It could a shed or even a sheltered table with chairs. be said that the town plan was on display But when we look to the definitions in the in comic form only. If it was not so serious front of the plan, several hundred pages it would have achieved nothing more than earlier, and link them up with Schedule C comic relief. we find, as the average citizen walking into the City Hall to look at the maps on display Why has the Minister adopted this method would never have found, that "municipal pur­ to dispose of this problem? Why has he pose" as defined at the front of the town plan said, "We will send the plan back to the was anything that the city council might deem council to do its homework because it did to be a menicipal purpose and that "public not do it properly."? Why didn't he just purpose" was defined in exactly the same amend the plan in the areas where we found way. This was duplicity if nothing else. fault? The reason is very simply this: If the The logical conclusion is that open space Minister were to amend the plan he would anywhere-any parkland in Brisbane-could be taking responsibility for it. He would be be used by the city council for any purpose just as responsible for those areas that he it wanted to declare to be a municipal purpose did not amend as for those areas that he from time to time, without notifying any of did amend. If the work of metropolitan the residents as to what was going to happen members. the Minister and his department all in their area. There could have been a combined overlooked some area where sewerage plant or a car park replacing an anomalies and dishonesty still existed, the open space or a park beside the river. No Minister would have been responsible for notification would have been given of this that, too. The only solution was to give the until the first bricks in the sewerage plant job back to the people who were supposed to were put in place. The local residents would do it in the first place, that is, the Labor alder­ suddenly realise that they had been thwarted men, and say to them, "There is your town and fooled by a dishonest council. plan; it is inadequate, it is dishonest, it is arrogant, it leads to autocracy. It is supposed When we look at parks, we see a bland to be democratic; it is supposed to encourage statement that the area of parkland per head public participation; it is supposed to be of population has constantly increased clear and it is supposed to state an intent. throughout the period of Labor administra­ Now go away and do it." tion. What a lot of hogwash that was! If we include recreation reserves such as Lang I find it absolutely comical that the Leader Park, I suppose it could be said that open of the Opposition should find himself in the space was keeping up with population growth. dilemma of having to support it because it But when we look at local parks, those is a Labor Party plan, and then have to run within a short distance from houses to which around to drum up objections within his mnm mi[lht like to send the kids to play own area so that his own credibility in Lytton and still be able to keep an eye on them, and remains intact. In this case our friend the parks within reach of pensioners where they Leader of the Opposition is a skilful schizo­ can walk and sit in a clean environment in phrenic. I have no sympathy for the situation the afternoon, we find from the very docu­ he found himself in, because once again the ments in the town plan-these were not the Labor Party has refused to learn the lessons ones on display; these were the expensive that the people of Australia have taught it ones that had to be bought if one wanted constantly, that is, that it cannot be profligate 3702 City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976] Plan Modification Bill

with other people's money, that it cannot to put roads through their houses. I went dither and dicker around with plans that do up and spoke for 10 minutes and explained not hold water. the lines were not part of the plan. The The citv council has said that it may cost honourable member for Lytton was so con­ half-a-miliion dollars to revise the plan; it is cerned that he took me aside and said, saying that this Parliament is costing the "You have got as much out of this as council half-a-million dollars. If that is so, we have. I think you should pay for a that amount of half-a-million dollars is third of the rental of the hall." That is incurred by the abdication of the last Labor the sort of petty politics involved in the city council from its duties. That is the half­ man. He comes and says to us that he was a-million dollars it is talking about-the so concerned to have the people of Lytton half-a-million dollars it in its indolence, see what was involved in the plan that arrogance and lack of responsibility cost the he took it into his electorate. To further people of Brisbane. show his knowledgability, he challenged me when I explained that on the map there I thoroughly commend the Minister's was a transit corridor extending down decision in setting up this legislation so that towards the area where the port of Brisbane the town plan might well have a chance to would be. He stated that that was not be dealt with properly. Now that there the case; that he knew the map thoroughly are Liberals in the city council I am cer­ and he would bet $100 that that would not tain there will be a conscience there, and be on the map. I said, "I am sorry, Mr. I can only say how lucky the Labor Party Burns. I would not make such a bet. I is that the Liberal Party did not make this am not a gambling man and I would not the major issue of the city council elections like to take your money, anyway." Before in Brisbane, because on this issue the Labor the crowd of 200 people there he insisted city council stands utterly condemned. that there was no transit corridor on the map. So I went over to the map he had Mr. BYRNE (Belmont) (10.26 p.m.): I con­ on the file, picked it up, pointed to it and cur with the sentiments expressed by pre­ said, "Well, Mr. Burns, I am sorry. There cedin<:( members on this side of the Chamber. goes your $100." I point out that the provisions of this Bill relating to the Brisbane Town Plan exist So he did not have a great deal of know­ for one reason: it took six months to plan ledge about it, even though he took it to a city; 20 minutes to approve the plan; his electorate. The Leader of the Opposition and a few hours to process the objections. did not possess that knowledge; nor did the That is the town plan that the city council members of the council. That is the great con­ so responsibly, presumbly, drew up and demnation of the present town plan. The gave to this Government to ratify. This people v.-ho were resnonsible for it and those Government just did not accept that. Tiiis who were talking about it knew nothing about it. If the people in council who were the Government does not deal with things in elected representatives of the people of Bris­ that manner, even if the Brisbane City Coun­ bane knew nothing about it, were happy to cil does. We like to have things researched approve it in 20 minutes and pass through the properly; to see what is involved; and to 29,000 objections in a couple of hours, I really make sure that the rights of the individual wonder what the rest of the people of Bris­ are taken into account. bane thought their representatives were doing. I want to make brief reference here to some of the remarks of the Leader of But I am not surprised. I would not have the Opposition, who referred to me during expected anything more of those aldermen his address. I point out that the honour­ because in later times they have shown no able member for Lytton had no compre­ greater capacity in other areas. hension of what was in the plan, because I want to make reference to one specific the plan that he took out to his electorate point. On the maps that were shown in the to show the people of Lytton consisted basement of the city hall-those beautiful simply of the maps of his area. It was maps that made it appear that Brisbane was very commendable indeed for him to take the greatest city of the 20th Century-the those maps out there. But, having taken them open area was designated. Every single piece out there. he called a public meeting (he of open area space-vacant council land and objected because I went to it) and spoke small parks-was shown in green. So was chiefly about the red lines-the transit cor­ every area from a quarter to half a mile ridors-on the map going through my elec­ from it. It seemed that Brisbane was an torate. adventure playground because all land within At the end of the evening's discussion a quarter or half a mile of any parkland was someone asked for a different point of shown in green. The whole area was col­ view. In an endeavour to distract atten­ oured green, indicating that .the people were tion from all the rezoning proposed by the very close to open area. This was the sort plan, the honourable member for Bulimba of deceit and deception presented to the spoke for an hour and the honourable public. member for Lytton spoke for 40 minutes Whether the public went there or not to telling the people how terrible the Queens­ see what happened made very little difference. land Government was because it was going When the officers on duty were asked about City of Brisbane Town [13 APRIL 1976) Plan Modification Bill 3703

the red lines on the map, they said, "That is on farmlands. Unfortunately, the combination not part of the town plan." When they were of this new town plan and revaluations in pushed, they said, "Those are the roads that the area will mean that in future these the State Government will put through your people will be priced off their land. The houses." Pressed further as to why they were people in that area have so many problems there they said, "The people involved in the that it is just not funny. I can see what is preparation of the plan said that it came as an going to happen. The council will eventually instruction from the Lord Mayor that those take over that land and no compensation red lines go onto the maps." They were not at all will be paid. part of the town plan. But it was a marvellous I have only a couple more points. I way to distract attention from the problems would like to support the call for more of the zoning of land. They were not wor­ planning expertise in the Local Government ried about the effect of showing transit cor­ Department and in the Brisbane City Council. ridors going through certain houses. And the While I would like to see more planning honourable member for Lytton had the hide expertise, I suggest .that the emphasis should to say, ''Fancy .trying to hide from the people be on educating and counselling local that there are these transit corridors. They authorities in planning, because I am opposed were not supposed to find out." to government by regulation. I had intended He had no concern at all tha.t these red to make a point about policy decisions, but lines on the maps affected people who were I think it has been covered by other honour­ trying to sell their houses or land or people able members. I do hope that it will be who were trying to buy. No decision had covered in the Bill. been made as to the transit corridors, as has As honourable members know, the rezoning since been proven; they were proposals that of land as open space has created tremen­ were being looked at by the department. No dous problems in my area. There is a right of decision had been taken. What was the appeal in rezoning cases, but when a local thought le£t in these people's minds? All authority takes a decision to rezone an area, of these people in my electorate suddenly that decision is subject to scrutiny by the found that the value of their land plummeted public and requires the approval of the and that they could not sell their land. Minister for Local Government. In that case Those are the facts. They show the gross any interested person may lodge a notice of misunderstanding and the gross lack of appeal against a proposed rezoning and he knowledge not only of the council but also has the right to a hearing within a court of of the Leader of the Opposition. Showing up law. That seems to me to be equitable because this deceit and the duplicity which exists in it protects the rights of the citizen in any the town plan is one of the greatest ·things given area who may be affected by such that this Government has done for the people rezoning. Then again, once the rezoning has of ·Brisbane. It has accepted a very great been effected, the control of the land which responsibility in sending the town plan back has been zoned as open space is vested in the to the city council, which has the responsi­ local authority concerned. bility to submit a proper plan, with proper In this context the term "open space" work and proper representation, and not would include parkland, playing areas, something which was given a 20-minute recreational areas and other areas of com­ approval and a two-hour look at objections. munally owned land which is not built upon. As I understand the position, the local I thoroughly support the Bill. authority may, without legal hindrance, reallocate this open space land for use by Mr, KAUS (Mansfield) (10.33 p.m.): I am sporting bodies. I will give honourable very pleased •to enter this debate. I agree members an example in my area. The Lions with most of the points raised by the prev­ Club did a good job for the community in ious Government speakers and should like developing an area as a playground for to raise a few more. children. One of the local churches has a The first time that the lines indicating the similar area near the Lions Park, which is railway corridors in my electorate appeared used for church picnics and so forth. But in on the maps was in 1973. We had notice each of these cases the initial development about the maps being displayed in the City by the council consisted of cutting down Hall. In my electorate a public meeting of trees, which in time created a proliferation more than 500 people was held. Most of of weeds and so forth. them were concerned over the plan, which The point I am making is that nobody shows a transportation route through the knew about the development of these park­ electorate. I asked the Minister numerous lands until such time as they saw a bull­ questions on ·this matter. The Transport dozer moving in. No notice of intent was Minister, who is presently in the Chamber, given by the council, and this development denied that there would ever be a railway created quite a number of problems in the line constructed there. However, when the electorate. Where there is no adequate town plan was displayed, we saw these lines justification in the best interests of the com­ on the maps. munity at large for open space land Quite a few people living in the area where reallocation, there is inherent in the current the proposed railway line is shown on the situation the possibility that the decisions maps are new Australians who are working taken will have regard only to sectional 3704 City of Brisbane, &c., Bill [13 APRIL 1976] Townsville City Council, &c., Bill

interests in the community. For example if TOWNSVILLE CITY COUNCIL (SALE OF in, say, Brisbane the Lord Mayor was a k~en LAND) ACT AMENDMENT BILL sportsman, one might expect a degree of patronage to be exhibited in favour of INITIATION IN COMMITTEE sporting bodies. In fact, that has not (Mr. Row, Hinchinbrook, in the chair) happened, and honourable members are aware of the little problems that have arisen Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast­ at the Brisbane Cricket Ground. Minister for Local Government and Main Roads) C0.45 p.m.): I move- I do not think I need add much more "That a Bill be introduced to amend Mr. Hewitt. If more time was available, i the Townsville City Council (Sale of could speak for about half an hour on the Land) Act 1973 in a certain particular." double standards of the council on parkland. The sole purpose of this Biii is to put If the council does not look after the rights beyond doubt the validity of certain agree­ of the people of Brisbane, it is up to the ments entered into by the Townsviiie City Minister and Government members to do so. Council with residents of the city for the Metropolitan Liberal members made sub­ sale of land for residential development in missions to the Minister for his assistance the suburb of Douglas. Honourable mem­ and for the benefit of the people of Brisbane bers wiii recall that in 1973 an Act entitled when an inept and inefficient Brisbane City the Townsville City Council (Sale of Land) Council did not do its job, and I congratu­ Act was passed to enable the Townsville late the Minister for sending the town plan City Council to sell certain freehold land back to the council for modification. which it held in the suburb of Douglas. I support the amendments proposed in the The legislation was passed at a time of Bill. booming land prices, and was aimed at providing allotments at a reasonable price to those people wishing to erect their own Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minis­ homes. To achieve this objective, the legis­ ter foc Local Government and Main Roads) lation was designed to enable the council (10.41 p.m.), in reply: I thank honourable to sell. the land in ques~ion by private con­ members for their contributions to the tract, mstead of by pubhc auction or tender debate. Because of the lateness of the hour, as is required under the provisions of the I do not propose to answer all honourable Local Government Act. Instead of being members in detail now. However, I shall obliged to accept the most advantageous endeavour to do so in my second-reading offer, the council was empowered to sell speech. all?tments by ballot, with the selling price It is obvious that the Bill has been weii bemg fixed beforehand, and being sufficient received by all honourable members. In to cover the council's development costs plus retrospect, I think it is only right that the a small margin for profit. new council, particularly in view of its The terms of sale, inter alia, provided that composition, should have the right to have land could only be purchased by persons another look at the town plan, instead of who were bona fide residents of Townsville who did not own other land in the city, and being told, "There is the town plan prepared who were prepared to erect a dwelling-house by the previous Council. You have to work on the land within a fixed period of time. under that plan for the next three to five years." Under the legislation, the council, before calling for applications to purchase any I thank the honourable member for allotment, was required to submit the terms Mansfield for restricting his contribution to and conditions of the sale for the approval the debate. It was purely a magnanimous of the Governor in Council. The Governor gesture on his part. The honourable in Council subsequently gave his approval to terms and conditions governing the sale of member always makes representations that certain of the land. he is entitled to make on behalf of his The Townsville City Council, however electorate, and I indicate to him my appreci­ has entered into a number of agreements t~ ation of his action and commend him for it. sell allotments of land which are at variance I am sure that all honourable members in certain minor respects with the terms and think that, a~ this hour of the night, enough conditions approved by the Governor in has been sa1d about the City of Brisbane Council. The principal variation has been Town Plan Modification Bill, so I commend to increase from three to five years the the motion to the Committee. period within which purchasers were obliged to erect a dwelling on the land they had Motion (Mr. Hinze) agreed to. purchased. Honourable members will agree, I am sure, that the actions of the Towns­ Resolution reported. ville City Council in this matter were not at variance with the intention of the special Act, but were designed to provide more FIRST READING reasonable conditions relating to the erection Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. of dwelling-houses on the lands sold. Legal Hinze, read a first time. advice has been obtained to the effect that Townsville City Council [13 APRIL 1976] (Sale of Land), &c., Bill 3705

amending legislation is needed to make pro­ land from these major developers and con­ vision whereby the Governor in Council can sequently could not obtain building contracts approve of these variations. The Bill pro­ to keep themselves viable. vides accordingly. I commend it to the The Townsville City Council gave serious Committee. thought to the best means of overcoming this situation. At that time we had close on Mr. MARGINSON (Wolston) (10.49 p.m.): 1 ,000 acres of land on the south bank of the The Minister has been very brief in his Ross River. It had been bought by a previous introduction of the Bill. As I see it, in 1973 council, 10 years earlier, at a cost of approxi­ an Act was passed to assist the Townsville mately $35 an acre. Part of the land had City Council. been given to the James Cook University; In Ipswich in about 1966 we surveyed some had been given to the Federal Govern­ some land and built roads through it, and ment for the establishment of a C.S.I.R.O. then had to put it up for public auction base near Mt. Stuart, and some had been under the Local Government Act. We were set aside for the establishment of a teachers' not very successful in the prices we obtained college. The balance of 800 acres was at that time. retained for future development. In 1973 there was a great boom in land The council decided to put up 54 acres prices, and the Townsville City Council at for sale by public tender with a view to that time (I am not talking about the encouraging another developer to enter the present Townsville City Council; I am sure field and sell land at more attractive prices it would never have made such indiscretions to building contractors and private buyers. under the present mayor, with all respect to At that time the price of land in the area my friend from Townsville West) apparently five or six miles from the city was about made certain variations to the 1973 agree­ $2,500 an acre in globo if someone was buy­ ment. ing in broad acres. On development these Residential homes are a big thing to blocks were retailing at $3,000 to $3,500 Queenslanders. I have heard the Premier each. When the 54 acres were put up for and the Minister for Works and Housing say public tender the council quite confidently that a Government in Canberra was respon­ expected to receive approximately $120,000. sible for the drop in home-building in But much to our surprise, in addition to five Queensland. I have not seen any improve­ or six tenderers who submitted prices in ment since that Government went out of the vicinity of $120,000, one tenderer sub­ office. I suppose that for a long time to mitted a price of $250,000, or something come we will be told by the Minister for like $4,800 per acre. Such a price has never Works and Housing that the previous Federal been attained for land even closer to the Government was responsible for the lessen­ city. At that time, as a new member of ing in home-building activities in Queensland. the council, I said that would cause a sharp escalation in land prices in Townsville I am sorry that the member for Towns­ because if the developer were to develop the ville South is not here. How important land at current development prices he would this measure must have been to him! He need to sell his land at more than $1,000 is not even here to give his version of the a block above the existing prices of land Townsville City Council's attitude to these one mile closer to the city. Fortunately for agreements. the developer, Townsville experienced a short­ The measure looks pretty good, and the age of land and people started trading in Opposition will have a look at it. Unfor­ land. Land prices rose sharply in 1972. When tunately the council has allowed an extension this developer was able to put the 54 acres of time of five years in contrast to three, of developed land on the market he found but this was its condition at the time of to his pleasant surprise that his land was the passing of the Act. We will comment returning about $6,000 a block, with a further on the Bill at the second-reading slightly higher price in areas closer to the stage-which I hope will be tomorrow. city. At the time, I said to members of the Mr. M. D. HOOPER (Townsville West) Townsville City Council, "It is about time (10.51 p.m.): In speaking in support of these that we accepted some responsibility for the amendments I think I should give some back­ young people of this city. We should develop ground to the introduction of the Act. I portion of the balance of the area we hold, go back to 1971, when the development of and create a new subdivision in the suburb land in Townsville was controlled by two or of Douglas." I felt that our younger citizens three large development companies, which should be able to secure a building site at had the foresight over the years to buy a reasonable price and not have to buy land large tracts of land and release them for on a rising market-a false market created building sites as they thought the demand mainly by land speculators. I do not decry warranted. They also controlled their own that practice, because the share market had building companies, which meant that anyone taken a bad turn and land is a profitable who bought a block of land from them was form of investment and a hedge against required to have his home built by them. inflation. But a false set of values was This caused some discontent among the small being created because land was being sold by builders in Townsville, who could not buy one person to another; land prices were 3706 Townsville City Council [13 APRIL 1976] (Sale of Land), &c., Bill

increasing; houses were not being built, and Over a number of years this sum of money people wanting to build had to pay a price will be devoted to civic development such far in excess of what land was worth. as theatres, cultural centres and roads, or I made it clear to the aldermen-and they any other activities that might be decided on agreed-that we should not knock private by ·the city council which will allow this enterprise altogether. We did not consider money to come back as a bonus to the rate­ that we should try to corner the market payers who could not participate in the and stop private developers from developing scheme. land they held. We discussed this with the Development works were let out by con­ private developers. While they may noj: have tract to private people and we were able to agreed entirely, they accepted ·that we were put the first 119 blocks of land on the not trying to put them out of business, that market in June 197 4 at an average price we were only trying to look after certain of $5,000 each. The development standards buyers, particularly young people who did were extremely high-higher than those pre­ not want to pay inflated yalues. viously imposed on Townsville developers. Having accepted the facts, the council then We had complete underground drainage, discovered that it could not sell the land on sewerage and water of course, underground the terms and conditions that were fav­ reticulation of electricity, bitumen roads and oured. A special Act of Parliament was concrete kerbing of a very high standard. required to facilitate these land sales because I make it clear that the development work the Local Government Act provides that did not cause any increase in general rates local authorities must sell their land at the in Townsville. At the time the scheme was highest possible price-and normally by introduced the then member for Townsville auction-to try to obtain a fair return for the West, Mr. Percy Tucker, made great play of ratepayers, who, after all, are the vested the fact that general rates in Townsville property owners of land owned by local would increase sharply because of the authorities. scheme. It was said then that the general One of the restrictions that the council rates would not increase because of the wanted to place on the land was that an scheme, as it was not the intention to finance applicant mus.t not own a block of land in it from loan raisings. It was financed com­ Townsville, Brisbane or elsewhere in Queens­ pletely by an overdraft from the Common­ land. It also advocated a fixed maximum wealth Bank. As recently as a month ago price at which the land could be sold. If Mr. Tucker was still saying that the Towns­ more than one buyer wanted a block of land, ville people were paying high rates because they had to take part in a ballot until the of the Douglas land scheme. After three ultimate buyer was determined. We wanted years, he still has not been educated. to peg the blocks at a fair selling price. We He calls himself a financial wizard. I hope also imposed a condition that when a person he can do a better job in the Townsville acquired a site he could not sell the land City Council that he has shown in relation at a profit. If after six or 12 months he to the Douglas land scheme, because he wished to leave Townsville, he had to pass hasn't got a clue on it. the block of land back to the city council The Townsville City Council was able to at the original price. In this way we cut put these sites on the market at approximately out completely any chances of speculation by $2,000 cheaper than comparable sites being persons buying a block of land at Douglas sold by private developers. People might from .the Townsville City Council ask why we could do that. Why can a Those conditions were contrary to the council develop land, including the purchase Local Government Act. Fortunately we price of $5,000 per acre, and be so com­ received very sympathetic support and assist­ petitive in retail marketing? It is quite ance from the then Minister for Local Gov­ easily explained. In the first place, we were ernment (Hon. Henry McKechnie), who not paying the high intereot rates of 15 battled on our behalf with Cabinet and other and 20 per cent which developers normally members of Parliament. We were also pay when they are subdividing land. Secondly, helped by the honourable members for we were not paying income tax on any small Townsville and Mt. Coot-tha. margin of profit after development and pur­ We pointed out •to the Minister that the chase costs were taken into account. So interested ratepayers who could not partici­ we were able to beat the private developer pate in the scheme would be fully protected. by putting land on the market at a much We said that, although the area of land in cheaper price than he could. globo had been bought some years ago at Unfortunately, we struck a period when about $35 an acre, we would base our selling the real estate market had been soundly price of individual allotments on develop­ thrashed by the financial crisis precipitated ment costs plus a value of approximately by the Whitlam Government. Bank interest $5,000 an acre in globo on the land we at the time was something like 15 per cent intended to develop. ~In other words, on the on borrowings for the purchase of a block parcel of land we intended to develop, we of land. Even if the person was prepared placed a value of $5,000 an acre, which to pay that much, there was no possibility of would come back to the ratepayers of the getting finance on a home after the block city who could not participate in the scheme. of land was paid off. Townsville City Council [13 APRIL 1976] (Sale of Land), &c., Bill 3707

Mr. Houston: What is it like under this interesting place. It had a lot of schemes for Government? development and it was given impetus by Mr. Gough Whitlam when he came to the ]\,fr. M. D. HOOPER: Things have city to support the Labor candidate (Mr. improved slightly, I can assure the honour­ Sweeney). Mr. Whitlam said, "I will make able member. this a growth centre." That is as much as he Sales were very slow initially, but I am did; we have not seen any growth centre happy to say that they are now proceed­ development. The city has developed because mg smartly. Out of a total of 119 blocks, of the intelligent thinking of the then mayor we have sold 97 allotments. At the pre­ and his council. sent time 43 homes are either occupied or At that time the Mayor was the present in the course of construction, and another member for Townsville \Vest. He had con­ 120 sites are fully developed, ready to go siderable experience in land development on on the market in the very near future. a practical scale and he pointed out to the Even though there was a provision in council the benefit to be derived .through the Act for the local authority to recom­ developing its own land. The land that has mend to the Minister that the buyer of a been developed was bought originally on the block of land could apply for an exten­ foresight of two people named George sion of time after the initial period of Roberts and Angus Smith when they con­ three years which was allowed for the devel­ trolled the T.C.A. council. They bought some opment of the site, a lot of people did 1,000 acres for $35,000 and planned this not realise that they could apply for an scheme. It is closely associated with the extension from the local authority after the teachers' training school and the James Cook expiration of three years if finance was University and is virtually in the centre of a not available to build their homes. So rapidly developing city. it \vas moved by resolution of the full At that time land development was rather council that we ask the Minister to extend difficult. Because of the high rate of interest the time to a period of five years to allow the average person could not purchase the people to build a home. It was felt that land on which to build a home. The council that would give them a lot more confidence gave a chance to them. The then mayor and in buying a block of land, and I feel that his council decided that the land could be sold it is a very desirable amendment. If a at two-thirds of its then current value. They person strikes some financial embarrassment estimated that about 6,000 people would live after five years and cannot afford to build in this area so that it was virtually a new he can still ask the city council for a~ electorate as big as some of the Brisbane extension of time. electorates. It was to be self-contained with The scheme has been very successful. I shopping facilities, recreational areas of 170 commend it to other local authorities in acres, underground electricity and telephone Queensland. I feel they should all try to lines installed and arrangements for high­ do something similar, especially cities or density areas. The high-density zones in .the shires that face the problem of escalation commercial areas were not included in the of land prices. I hope that this scheme is legislation, which contained only provisions taken up by other local authorities, because for the sale of building allotments. I am afraid that in future so many At that time Townsville was booming. In young people in our society will be living 1972 it is considered that some 700 building in multi-unit dwellings-fiats, in other words. allotments were sold and it was thought that There is a marked increase in fiat develop­ in 1973 over 1,000 would be sold. The ment in most of the provincial cities as applications for building permits increased well as in the metropolitan area. from 1972 and in 1973 totalled in the vicinity of 1,400 to 1,500. This is a trend that we should try to reverse. We should assist young people as It was decided that these blocks would be much as we possibly can to buy their own sold only to genuine home builders. No block of land at a fair and reasonable price speculator was allowed to purchase them. If so that they can start a new family in the council considered that the purchaser their own home. I believe that will eradicate did not have the intention or facilities to one of the social evils of our time. If finance and continue the agreement, it could we can get young families living in their buy back or reclaim the land from the own home, they will have a much better speculator on its own terms. It also decided understanding of one another and their that if two people wanted the one block, it families, and in that way I think we will could be balloted for. It also decided that if see less breaking up of marriages in the there were more applicants than blocks, the years to come and we ,will have a better ballot system could be used to the betterment society in which to live. of the public interest. A medium-density area was also allowed. As far as I can understand, Thi~ Bill provides an incentive to young it was not intended to be proceeded with until people to purchase their own block of land all building allotments for homes were sold. below market value and I commend the Minister for it. Previously it was not possible to purchase land direct from a local authority and a local Dr. SCOTT-YOUNG (Townsville) (11.5 authority could not sell land unless it was p.m.): In 1972, Townsville was rather an sold by public auction or tender. This 3708 Townsville CitY Council, &c., Bill [13 APRIL 1976] Common. and States, &c., Bill legislation removed that impediment to the Bill. I also thank the honourable members sale of this land. for Townsville and Townsville West for their The financing of this land was not carried contributions. They have an intimate know­ out as Mr. Tucker said. He claimed that ledge of the problem. As the title indicates, rates in Townsville would be increased by the Bill was designed to overcome a small some 20 per cent to finance the land. As the problem in the Townsville city area. I com­ honourable member for Townsville West said, mend the Bill to the Committee. this was arranged through bank finance and Motion (Mr. Hinze) agreed to. did not cause the increase in rates. The rates Resolution reported. were automatically increased that year for reasons other than to finance building in the FIRST READING Douglas area. Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. It was considered that this was a viable Hinze, read a first time. project and that building allotments could be sold for $2,300, which was some two-thirds COMMONWEALTH AND STATES less than the current market price. It was interesting to see that in certain parts of FINANCIAL AGREEMENT Townsville at that time, such as the Riverside FURTHER VARIATION BILL Drive area which was being developed by SECOND READING private enterprise, building allotments cost about $5,000. At Louisa Heights the price Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ was $6,000, and in the more densely popu­ Deputy Premier and Treasurer) (11.16 lated area of North Ward it was $25,000. p.m.): I move- So the council was definitely offering to young "That the Bill be now read a second people under the age of 30, just starting their time." families, a very considerable reduction in the As I pointed out to honourable members purchase price of land. The trading banks when introducing the Bill, its primary pur­ agreed to finance these purchases on 10 per pose is to provide legislative approval for cent deposit, which again was a change from an agreement entered into by the Common­ the normal procedure whereby land develop­ wealth and the States on 5 February 1976 ers had contacts with finance companies­ to amend the Financial Agreement in certain and also in some devious way with certain particU'lars. A copy of that agreement has building societies-and once the young people been set out in the schedule to the Bill. got into their hands they paid a high price for The agreement, which is to have retro­ a block of land and spent many years paying spective effect from 30 June 1975, has been it off. signed by all State Premiers and the Prime In his speech on this Bill Mr. Tucker made Minister on behalf of the Commonwealth. the point that the land should be leasehold. It cannot become operative until it has been This was far from the thoughts of the council ratified and approved by all State Parlia­ and the then Mayor, the honourable member ments and the Commonwealth. The Bill is for Townsville West, at that time bevause it necessary to achieve this as far as Queens­ was felt that in fact the best way of getting land is concerned, and I commend it to the people a home was to make sure they bought House. it at the right price, not an inflated price. Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (11.17 p.m.): A home gives them a sense of ownership and I am sure the Treasurer will agree that the of belonging in the area. The then Minister Bill is virtually a continuation of earlier (Hon. H. A. McKechnie) when introducing agreements that were made. Analysing the the Bill said that the scheme would be made payment required of the State, one finds that flexible and that he and his fellow Ministers it runs out at approximately four times the would keep their eyes on it. He said that if Commonwealth's contribution and that is problems arose he would ensure that the rules about the same with each State. That it is would not be rigidly enforced. This is exactly probably why the Premiers had no difficulty what the present Minister is doing. He has in agreeing. I imagine that there would brought the Act back to the Committee in have been some debate about the relative order to allow this flexibility to be written contributions by the Commonwealth and the into it by allowing a term of five years in­ States. stead of three years in which people have to bu~ld on their land. It is an excellent idea There is one point on which I should like and I consider the Minister should be con­ the Treasurer to enlighten the House. If I gratulated on it. It will undoubtedly help may refer to the schedule without going into young people in the area of Douglas to pur­ detail, Mr. Speaker, the Treasurer might chase land and build within a reasonable tell the House on what basis the loans time. covered by clause 9 of the schedule were selected. Honourable members might have Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister noticed that various debts were eliminated, for Local Government and Main Roads) and I should like to know the basis on which (11.14 p.m.), in reply: I thank the honourable they were selected. member for Wolston for his comments on Other than that, the Bill covers the points behalf of the Opposition on the Townsville made by the Treasurer in his introductory City Coundl (Sale of Land) Act Amendment speech. Stamp Act [13 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3709

Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ had during the billing period, with a deduc­ Deputy Premier and Treasurer) (11.18 p.m.), tion of lOc on the assumption that the card­ in reply: The honourable member for holder may draw a stamped cheque in Bulimba raised a point as to selection. I settlement of his credit card account with understand that at the time certain debts the bank. The duty is not levied on the were maturing at certain periods, at dif­ basis that the cardholder would have drawn ferent interest rates, and a representative a cheque in respect of each transaction with parcel of these loans was to be taken into a merchant, but on the basis that each of account to aggregate the figure arrived at the merchants with whom the cardholder had by the Commonwealth. I believe that that dealings would have operated an account is why the loans were selected. with the cardholder, which account would Motion (Sir Gordon Chalk) agreed to. have been settled with one cheque at the end of the billing period. COMMITTEE As I have said on a previous occasion, (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. the legislation requires that the bank lodge Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) the return and account for the stamp duty. Clauses 1 to 5, both inclusive, and If the bank fails to lodge the return as schedule, as read, agreed to. required, there is provision for the bank to be declared a non-compliant bank, and it Bill reported, without amendment. would then be necessary for the individual ThiRD READING cardholder to lodge a return on his own behalf. Where an organisation operates out­ Bill, on motion of Sir Gordon Chalk, by side Queensland, but issues a credit card leave, read a third time. to a person in Queensland, then, unless that organisation makes arrangements to account for the stamp duty on behalf of its clients, the individual must lodge the return. It is STAMP ACT AMENDMENT BILL obviously in the interest of all credit card SECOND READING operators to account for duty on behalf of their clients rather than put them to the Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ inconvenience of having to submit individual Deputy Premier and Treasurer) ( 11.21 returns. p.m.): I move- The provisions of the Bill seek to ensure "That the Bill be now read a second that the legislation operates as the Govern­ time." ment intended, and I commend the Bill As I pointed out to honourable members to the House. when I introduced the Bill, its provisions are Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (11.24 p.m.): brief but nevertheless very necessary. As I indicated at the introductory stage, the I have previously outlined to honourable Opposition can clearly understand the motives members the reasons for the necessity to behind the Treasurer's action, although I make the changes to the legislation. The restate the fact that I do not think the banks had failed to lodge the returns and Treasurer intended to lose on the trans­ pay the duty as required by the Act, and action when legislation covering the use of the solicitors for the Australian Bankers Bankcards was originally introduced. I am Association submitted legal argument as to sure he knew there would be people using the reasons for their failing to do so. After Bankcards who previously did not use taking further legal opinion, the Government cheques. As examples, I gave instances decided that it would be in the interest of known to me personally of people who pre­ everyone concerned if the definitions were viously withdrew lump sums and paid cash amended to remove any uncertainty in the for their transactions, but who have now law. The new provisions will operate in taken out Bankcards. respect of all billing periods ending in the In some cases the companies that are part month of April, and returns in respect of of the Bankcard system are only small these will be required to be lodged by 28 traders. The prices of the articles that they May 1976. sell are quite modest, so that a person can It is well to point out at this stage that quite conceivably do a lot of shopping on it was the Government's intention that the a normal withdrawal through the pass-book legislation should operate to ensure that the system rather than through the cheque revenue the State would have lost as a system. As I have said, we do not entirely result of Bankcard operations would be agree with the method adopted by the recouped. It was the Government's belief Government to obtain the money; never­ that the use of Bankcards would result in a theless, I can understand the problem con­ reduced need to draw cheques in settlement fronting the Treasurer once the Budget was of accounts on which the State receives lOc approved. for each cheque drawn. I hope that the Treasurer will look again at I would again stress that the stamp duty this system, because I feel that if a means is payable is only equivalent to the amount of adopted whereby the public will not be duty that would have been payable had the required to carry large sums of money, cardholder drawn a stamped cheque to pay thereby running the risk of robbery, par­ each merchant with whom a transaction was ticularly if they have the money in their 3710 Insurance Act, &c., Bill [13 APRIL 1976] Qld. Cultural Centre Trust Bill

homes over the week-end while the banks are the wider powers which the Commonwealth closed, the better it will be for them. Their can exercise, the protection afforded to the welfare must be taken into account. insuring public is enhanced. Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ The Bill also provides for other changes Deputy Premier and Treasurer) (11.26 p.m.), to delete requirements which in practice in reply: I appreciate the remarks of the cannot be enforced. However, I do not think honourable gentleman. These issues were there is any real need for me to recapitulate raised when the legislation was originally on these lesser issues as members have now introduced. It was passed by Parliament and had the opportunity to examine the Bill. it was the basis on which part of the revenue I again commend the Bill to the House. in the Budget was assessed. It is only because of the view expressed by the Banks lVk HOUSTON (Bulimba) (11.31 p.m.): A Association that this amendment was day or so ago-since the introductory stage-­ considered necessary. l noted an item in the news stating that the Commonwealth is looking into the possibility Motion (Sir Gordon Chalk) agreed to. of registering brokers. COMMITTEE Sir Gonlon Chalk: That is true. (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. Mr. HOUSTON: Without labouring the Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) point and seeing that the Commonwealth has Clauses 1 to 3, both inclusive, as read, gone so far ::.nd we have relinquished one agreed to. part of the field, perhaps the Treasurer minht Bill reported, without amendment. indicate whether we will naturally follow with a further amendment to vacate this THIRD READING field as well if the Commonwealth does go Bill, on motion of Sir Gordon Chalk, by on with the suggestion. leave, read a third time. Hem. Si.r GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ Deputy Premier and Treasurer) (11.32 p.m.), INSURANCE ACT AMENDMENT BILL in l'ep!y: The point raised by the honourable SECOND READING member has been noted by me. Since I introduced this Bill a statement has been Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ made at Commonwealth level about extend­ Deputy Premier and Treasurer) (11.28 p.m.): ing the Commonwealth Bill to bring in I move- insurance brokers. I had heard something "That the Bill be now read a second about that at the time the amendments were time." drawn up. On the other hand there are When I introduced this Bill, a number of questions about brokers and the extent of honourable members took the opportunity to the licensing involved. Until we have that raise a variety of insurance issues which were information to hand, I am not prepared to totally unrelated to the amendments con­ say that we will remove brokers from this tained in the Bill. I replied to the general legislation. As we have taken the opportunity issues which were raised, but the honour­ to amend the legislation in relation to general able member for Bulimba did raise one insurance business, it would seem that no matter which was relevant to the Bill and, good purpose would be served by continuing since I did not comment at the introductory to license brokers here if we were satisfied stage, I would like to clear up the point now. with the legislation brought down by the The honourable member questioned the Commonwealth. amount which the State will lose by way of Motion (Sir Gordon Chalk) agreed to. licence fees as a result of amendments con­ tained in this Bill. The answer is that it is CoMMITTEE approximately $19,000 per year. This is the (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. amount collected by way of agents' licence Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) fees. A licence costs each agent $1 per year. Clauses 1 to 17, both inclusive, as read, However, the abandonment of the system agreed to. will result in economies by way of staff Bill reported, without amendment. reductions and general administration costs that will in fact exceed ,the revenue lost. The THIRD READING licensing system was never intended to be a Bill, on motion of Sir Gordon Chalk, by source of Government revenue, but cost leave, read a third time. increases over the past several years had made it a losing proposition and a licence fee increase was overdue. QUEENSLAND CULTURAL CENTRE In my introductory remarks, I pointed out TRUST BILL that the main purpose of the Bill was to SECOND READING repeal the requirement that insurers carry­ ing on general insurance business in Queens­ Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ land must take out a State licence. The Deputy Premier and Treasurer) (11.35 p.m.): supervision and control over the operations I move- and financial stability of these insurers is now "That the Bill be now read a second a Commonwealth responsibility. Because of time." Queensland Cultural [13 APRIL 1976] Centre Trust Bill 3711

The main provisions and purposes of the Bill The facilities which are planned should were outlined and debated at the introductory encompass the needs of all types of per­ stage and I would like to comment further forming groups. It is too early to know on some of the points raised in that debate. what the rental charges might be. However, The cost of the complex was estimated the Government has in mind that the centre at October 1974 costs to be about should be a genuine cultural centre for the $45,000,000. Naturally, with inflation, this whole community so that high rents will cost will rise, but I would hesitate to predict not exclude its use by representative com­ what the rate of future price escalation will munity groups. be. The work will be financed in stages In relation to buildings, the activities of so that the figure of $45,000,000 will not the trust will be confined to the centre. escalate in total into the 1980s. The cost However, one of its general functions is of the later stages could be expected to to encourage and facilitate activities in escalate more than those completed earlier. artistic, scientific, cultural or performing arts On the credit side, loan allocatio:1s, the throughout the State. It thus has the power ability to pay entrance charges, Casket to work with local groups throughout the profits and the State's ability to meet unre­ State in relation to these matters. At this couped debt charges can also be expected stage it is envisaged that the function of to increase over that time. The planning the cultural activities section of the Educa­ and development will be carried out pro­ tion Department, including the payment of gressively with all these factors in mind. grants to various cultural groups throughout I do not expect any major financing prob­ the State, will remain unaltered. lems which would be an embarrassment to Advice has been taken from various the State. sources to form the over-all conceptual plan It is true that there are other avenues of what shall be included. Representatives where expenditure is needed. However, of the ~1useum, art gallery, library and the there is a need for a venture such as performmg arts have been consulted about this to broaden the quality of life in the SJ?~cia~ needs . for areas, storage, air-con­ State. Other areas such as roads, schools dtttonmg, seatmg requirements and so on. and housing have been receiving large All facilities will generally be of modern annual allocations over a period of time. design. The central location, as well as These will continue. However, the centre providing great aesthetic impact in combina­ will involve a once-and-for-all allocation. tion with the Brisbane River the Victoria This will be spread over a number of years Bridge and th.e city buildi~gs, wili also so that there is no interference with the me':n that pub!Jc transport will be close by. usual priorities. A further point is that Wht!e Brisbane citizens will on average the expenditure cannot be classified as receive more benefit from this centre it is nnnecessary, even if there is dispute about in fact a State centre for all of the ~itizens the centre's concept. The museum, the art ?f the . State. ~t is only appropriate that gallery, which is only in rented premises, It be situated m the capital. The library, and the State Library all urgently need ~rt g<_tllery and museum are already located modern accommodation in central locations m Bnsbane and in relation to them the new close to public transport in order to carry out project only involves a transfer of location. their functions in the best possible manner. I would mention at this stage that I shall A State performing arts centre which can be moving a very minor amendment in accommodate all top quality performances the Committee stage to substitute an incor­ is also a high priority after the State has rect reference which has been located in lacked one for so many years. the Bill. The amendment will not have any As to the implementation of the Gov­ ~ffect whatever on the principles contained ernment's policy for the development of m the measure. the centre by the trust-it will be seen Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (11.40 p.m.): from the Bill that the trust is to be subject As was mentioned at the introductory stage to the general control and direction of the the Opposition is not opposed to the con: Minister administering the Act. c.ept of the Bill. What concerns the Opposi­ The first trust will consist of the present tiOn greatly is the possible lack of speed Planning and Establishment Committee of with which this project will proceed. It is the centre, which includes Sir David Muir some considerable time since the decision was as the chairman and five other departmental IJ?2.de to build the complex on the South­ or deputy departmental heads responsible Side and anybody would be excused for to Ministers. Appointments thereafter will b~lieving that it was not intended to proceed be by the Governor in Council. The trust's With any great speed. The Minister has indic­ annual budget is also subject to approval ated by introducing the Bill that at least the by the Minister. This power will allow first stage can be proceeded with. I trust that approval in respect of types of work as every effort will be made to get the project well as in respect of annual amounts of under way. Anyone who has had occasion expenditure. The Government will therefore to visit the art gallery and museum must be firmly in control of the venture, while surely realise that they are completely inade­ at the same time the benefits of advice quate and out-of-date and certainly not the from expert representatives of the various type of establishment that one would like branches of culture will still be available. to point out to people from other States. 3712 Queensland Cultural [13 APRIL 1976] Centre Trust Bill

Unfortunately, because of the structure ticularly to the newer ones in Melbourne and presentation in the art gallery and and Adelaide, where new concepts were museum, far too many of our young school­ introduced. In the main I believe they are children do not have the opportunity to get very worth-while establishments. But I an earlier grounding in the benefits that both could not conceive that, merely because of those establishments should be able to people are very capable in their jobs, as are offer to the community. I trust that the the Director-General of Education and the new complex will be proceeded with speedily Deputy Chairman of the Public Service and will be worthy of this city and State. Board, they would claim that they had the Some honourable members have expressed knowledge required to correctly show pic­ concern because the money will be spent in tures or correctly display museum items. So Brisbane. I do not think that anybody would I would suggest to the Treasurer even at this suggest that the War Memorial in Canberra late stage that he should have associated should be located in a country town. These with the first trust at least one person cap­ things must be kept in correct perspective. able of doing this. As Sir David Muir is It is not because a person lives in Brisbane, the representative of the performing arts, but it is the capital city of the State which perhaps he could take care of that. many people visit during holiday periods. The other point I want to make is about While here they can visit the museum and the library. Here again, although the dis­ the art gallery and enjoy what they have to tinguished gentlemen already mentioned offer. People do not visit these establish­ would certainly know something about the ments every week. It is not quite the same use of a library, again I doubt whether they with a theatre for the performing arts; I arc experts in the design of a modern lib­ believe that, to country people, that is not rary. So virtually with the addition of two the main function of the centre. The main people I believe we could have a first trust function is to replace and revitalise the art which would give complete coverage to a gallery and museum. project which will finish up costing in the I pay respect to the people associated with vicinity of $100,000,000. After all, we do conducting the S.G.I.O. Theatre and the not want another Sydney Opera House on university theatre. Both of them have been our hands, where a lack of expertise in the well run. They are very pleasant theatres vital fields of the performing arts created to attend. Those responsible for staging the problems with the establishment of that great performances in them are to be commended. building. This brings me to my first point on the The other provisions of the Bill are in Biii-the establishment of the first trust. the main administrative but there is one In no way do I cast any reflection on the point I would like to bring to the Treasurer's members who have been named, owing to attention, and that is that the trust is sub­ their positions, as members of the first trust. ject to the direction of the Minister. I often However, I feel that the trust lacks a balance wonder why, when we establish a body of between professional builders of such estab­ experts and clothe them with the authority to lishments, financiers of such establishments get on with the job, we then say to them, and those with the expertise associated with "Look, you are subject to the direction of the projects that are to be housed there. the Minister." I feel that it is not in the One can say in truth that Sir David Muir, interests of the smooth running of a trust the Director of Industrial Development, has to do this. I can understand that the proved his worth in the position he holds Treasurer wants to keep some type of grip in the Queensland Theatre Company and I on the finances of the trust so that it is not do not think anyone would begrudge him spending money willy-nilly or wasting public his place on the trust in the position of funds, but I also feel that, when we estab­ chairman. I believe he is a very worth-while lish a trust made up of such personnel, we choice because of his position in the Public should clothe them also with certain powers, Service and his knowledge of the performing and, although I would perhaps go along with arts. the idea that the Minister should give final I suppose the Treasurer could argue that approval to certain aspects, I am not par­ the other gentlemen concerned are equally ticularly happy that the Minister can direct worthy of their positions. In no way do I the trust to do certain things, because we argue against that, but I do feel that it is are not dealing only with the present Minis­ completely out of proportion to have only ter. We are dealing with an Act which lays one person representing both the museum and down that a Minister has certain powers, the art gallery. I know that the Treasurer and over a period a clash may occur does not want the first trust to be a large because a Minister is acting with or without body but I do say to him that there is a Government approval. We all know from completely different set of requirements for our parliamentary experience that some Min­ the designing of an art gallery and a museum isters become rather stubborn about certain and that these jobs are both specialist in facets of their administration and beliefs that their application. I have had the privilege they have. of seeing the art galleries in Melbourne and Generally, the Bill deals with administra­ Adelaide and the older established ones in tion, and I hope that the trust can get under New South Wales, as have no doubt the way and that the cultural centre will become Treasurer and other members. I refer par- a reality without any long delay. Queensland Cultural [13 APRIL 19761 Centre Trust Bill 3713

Mr. W. D. HEWITT (Chatsworth) S.G.I.O. Theatre has been quite outstanding. (11.51 p.m.): It is my intention to be still His singular contribution should not go performing on the political stage when this unnoticed. scheme reaches its ou1mination. Therefore I Spending money specifically on cultural wish to say something about it at its genesis. activities is becoming a latter-day event in I am sure that our Thespian Treasurer Queensland. If we look at the tables that the takes some personal satisfaction in piloting Treasurer provides each year with his Budget this Bill through the House because his statement we find that cultural activities as association with the arts is well known and a separate item never rated a mention until he is a well-known theatre-goer. I am sure 1967-68. That does not reflect very well upon that he, too, has some ambition to still be our predecessors in Government. In 1967-68, around when the scheme reaches its culmina­ for the first time that item appeared, and the tion. modest sum of $210,265 was appropriated. The sum has grown steadily, and the amount It is exciting legislation that we take actually expended in 1974-75 was $1,293,078 through the House tonight, Mr. Speaker. For -still a modest sum, but showing a steady too long Brisbane has been the cultural growth from the time when the item first desert of Australian capital cities. Every appeared in the Budget papers. other capital city in the nation now has a cultural centre that dignifies that name-a Mr. Lane: And distributed very selectively. cultural centre that can play host to great Productions from overseas in addition to Aus­ Mr. W. D. HEWITT: Yes, distributed very tralian productions-and it is a sad fact that selectively. I know that choral groups have when major productions come to these received some assistance. shores, Brisbane is the one city that cannot The fact of the matter is that cultural be host to them because it cannot offer activity is at last finding its place in the sun adequate facilities. At long last this is being in the Sunshine State. It is a great pleasure put right. to be associated with this wonderful, exciting scheme at this enabling legislation time, and I know that there is some feeling about the nature of this expenditure and the I am sure many other members share my positioning of the cultural centre. In justify­ sentiment when I say we all look forward to ing the centre a little more, I suppose one the culmination of the complex. We hope could well pose the question: how far would that it will not take too long to come along. people be prepared to travel to see such Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the people as Nureyev, Dame Margot Fonteyn, Opposition) (11.56 p.m.): I should like to Gielgud and Olivier? One might say that ask the Treasurer or the committee handling people would happily drive for two hours to the matter to reconsider the programme laid see such well-known personalities. If one down for the State Library. I understand takes a radius of two hours' driving from the that stage I, the art gallery, will be completed cultural centre, one would find that this in 1979; stage II, the performing art centre, would be catering for close to 1,000,000 will be in 1981; stage Ill, the museum, people. It would take in Toowoomba, the will be in 1982; stage IV, the library, will be Gold Coast, the thriving, pulsating city of in 1983. Redcliffe and places a little further north. Because there is such an aggregation of The annual report of the Library Board of population in that area, I am sure that the Queensland indicates that the State Library is project can very easily be justified. in a very difficult situation. As the State Library does service large areas of the State, What is important, also, is that this total as well as Brisbane, and as a modern library complex does not cater only for the perform­ is no longer just a museum of books but an ing arts, although that in itself would justify active information centre which becomes part the expenditure; it is also going to provide of the every-day life of the community-! a first-rate museum. Those who have been talk of the community as a whole-I believe privileged to travel to Perth, for example, that the State Library ought to be the key­ well know that the museum there specialises stone of a library and information service in Aboriginal arts, and it is one of the out­ for the whole of the State. Consequently it standing places in the world in which to worries me to see reports from that library study Aboriginal artefacts. I am quite sure board which indicate that the library is ham­ that a prestige museum in a centre such as pered and hindered by inadequacies of the this, while offering general exhibitions, should library building in William Street. also be able to specialise in the same way as For example, the report refers to difficulties the museum in Perth. caused by restricted shelving etc. I am told One cannot fail to pay particular tribute that the significance of that is that it is very to those who seem to select themselves as difficult without considerable delay to meet members of the trust. If one were to select the needs of people who come to the library. one person from the others, one would cer­ People must be highly motivated to use the tainly refer to Sir David Muir and the library if they have to be prepared to return sterling effort he has made in the Queens­ 24 or 48 hours later after an item has been land Theatre Company. The selection of obtained from elsewhere. The consequence productions that have taken place at the is that inadequate use is made of an extensive 119 3714 Queensland Cultural [13 & 14 APRIL 1976] Centre Trust Bill public asset. The Public Library is a major believe that this also would be covered asset. The report shows that there are accom­ through the funding of the trust. I would modation problems in the archives building. seek some clarification from the Treasurer There are also accommodation problems for of the way in which these activities will be the reference library. They are important funded. Country members are being asked facets of our library system, and it should questions of this type by their constituents. not be restricted. If we are going to wait until 1983 for a Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ new library we are going to have to put up Deputy Premier and Treasurer) (12.2 a.m.), with the library which is now abominably in reply: I thank honourable members for housed in the William Street building and their contribution to the debate on this very which was extended in the 1960s. In retro­ important Bill. The honourable member for spect I think that was an unwise decision. Bulimba raised a couple of points about the It was a temporary expedient, and a short­ setting up of ,the first trust. What we have sighted decision. It should have been evident in mind is that those persons who had been to any informed observer that what was associated with the Planning and Establish­ done was an expensive, temporary make­ ment Committee, including persons connected shift. We should have abandoned the old with the art gallery, .the museum and the building and constructed a completely new library, would be appointed as the first building suitable for the later days of the members of the trust. The legislation pro­ 20th Century. But we went ahead with the vides for their appointment until 12 months idea of extending the building. after the commencement of ·the Act. The The consequences of that decision are that people who have been nominated are those parts of the State Library are scattered in who have had considerable experience in the various places around Brisbane, including planning. I appreciate the honourable mem­ flood-prone areas. That was shown by the ber's view and assure him that we have been in close consultation with others who loss of most of the country extension service have made major contributions to this line stock in the 1974 flood. The State Library is promised a new home in the cultural centre of thought. in 1983. In the meantime the essential library As to the direction of the Minister-this and information service, which has so much provision appears in many Acts. Where to contribute to commerce and industry as considerable finance is involved, it is advan­ well as education and culture throughout the tageous to have some control by a Minister State, is cramped and confined by a white or the Government. It is not a new measure. elephant of a building designed for a different I gave some thought to it before it was age. I ask the Treasurer to see what can be applied and I am sure it will prove to be in done. After all, the library service is part the best interests of everyone concerned. of our educational system and it serves people The Leader of the Opposition referred not only in Brisbane but throughout the State to the State Library. I am fully aware of as a whole. It should be extended as a the conditions that exist there and of the modern service. The priorities are wrong if need to improve them very quickly. We have such a proper service is not to be provided tried to draw up a plan. I believe that it in the near future. is fairly concrete in the way we have mapped it out. There are certain reasons why we have to commence in one area. I assure the [Wednesday, 14 April 1976] Leader of the Opposition that if it is felt that a change in plans should be made, or a Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (12.1 a.m.): I seek speeding up of this portion should be clarification of one point. At the intro­ effected, those charged with the administra­ ductory stage I referred to the Treasurer's tion of the trust will be only .too willing Budget speech last year, when he made to listen to any approaches made. the initial announcement concernino the On the point made by the honourable financial arrangements surrounding the "'estab­ member for Mackay about the educational lishment of the State cultural centre. At side, firstly, we are not doing anything to the same time he mentioned a new scheme interfere with matters normally controlled for the entire State. by the Department of Education. The idea At the introductory stage he confirmed is to set up a trust to handle the funds and that one of ,the functions of the trust will to ensure that we can proceed not only be to encourage and facilitate activities in in this area but also in others. As I indicated artistic, scientific and cultural activities and previously, if a local authority decides to in the performing arts. Tonight he said go ahead with a cultural facility, funds will again that ·the old system of grants under the be provided as outlined in the Budget. All Cultural Activities Section of the Education areas can benefit. Department will continue. I presume it will I do not think anything new was raised in continue, as will the capital grants. the other comments. I have previously There is no mention in the Bill of fur,ther outlined these matters clearly. ll. am sure finance for these other activities throughout that, in the long run, the establishment of local authority areas in other parts of the this trust will be advantageous to the State. State. Other members and I were led to Motion (Sir Gordon Chalk) agreed to. Soccer Football (13 & 14 APRIL 1976] Pools Bill 3715

COMMITIEE Because of the cost of the tickets, it is (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. a very modest type of gambling. However, Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) what concerns me is that the introduction of another type of gambling could have quite Clauses 1 to 22, both inclusive, as read, an appreciable effect on some of the estab­ agreed to. lished methods of gambling that are presently Clause 23-Director and Assistant available. Raffles that are conducted in Directors- hotels, for argument's sake, are all run on Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ behalf of one worth-while organisation or Deputy Premier and Treasurer): I move the another. The proceeds of bingo, once again, following amendment:- are devoted to worth-while organisations. Many art unions are conducted for charities. "On page 8, line 22, omit the word­ Doubles are conducted on football matches. 'Trustees' As well, there is the Golden Casket, the

club or that the local football club wants believes he has won something in order to players, they do not display any great have the coupon checked. If that is the case, interest. At that age they are usually too and if I faced the prospect of being fined old for anything to be done with them. I $100 with $500,000 at stake, it would be suggest that an investigation into why they worth the risk. Perhaps the Treasurer can have reached that stage might be very worth tell us what the situation is in such cases. while. Even if it means appointing a couple of Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (12.22 employees full time to look into this facet it a.m.): The legislation before us at the could be of great interest to the community moment has received both support and and would stop some of the younger genera­ opposition from various sections of the tion reaching that stage. Many of them community. There are those who put for­ turn out to be good citizens but in the mean­ ward the proposition that in the long term time quite a few years of their lives are it is not advisable that a Government should virtually wasted when they could be using fund its administrative activities through their skills and enjoying themselves with the gambling or games of chance, but in his idea of achieving a healthy mind and a introductory remarks the Treasurer did healthy body. explain that it was vitally important to the finances of this State that we have our As I said at the introductory stage, the per­ own soccer pools because if we do not we centage of prize-money is very small for a are going to have hundreds of thousands of gambling venture. I do not think that there is dollars being siphoned off by other States. any doubt that it is the smallest percentage It is important that the revenue we derive return to the investor and perhaps the redeem­ from soccer pools is put to good use. ing feature is that the prize is usually substan­ tial. There is always the $500,000 or so that I want to speak on only one of the clauses, people hope for, so they are not particular.Jy and that is the one that refers to the estab­ worried about the percentage of the money lishment of a special Sports and Youth Fund. invested that they receive. They adopt a The use that is being stressed here is an "what's in it for me" attitude. They will be acceptable one because it will benefi,t the interested when $500,000 is dangling in front whole community. We know of the diffi­ of their eyes. culties being faced by sporting, recreational and general youth committees. They are I am mentioning these matters now to unable to provide the facilities that they save speaking at the Committee stage. One need, first of all because of the high cost of clause deals with a penalty of $100 if a facilities today, but more so because the person under the age of 18 years is found Federal Liberal Government under Mr. taking part in this form of gambling. The Fraser has cut out the finance that was Bill does not clearly lay down exactly how previously available under the Whitlam Gov­ the pool will operate and whether or not ernment. We are set to lose something like postal applications will be allowed. I can $250,000 alone in the sporting field. understand that T.A.B. agencies could be Mr. Lane: It was negligible. used as receiving depots and I have been informed by my colleague from Wolston that overseJ.s the postal method is used to Mr. WRIGHT: That $250,000 has to be send in coupons. The Bill does not make found somewhere else, and if the honourable clear whether the Treasurer intends to allow member talks to people in the sporting field, the posting of coupons. After all, persons he will realise this is something that the under the age of 18 will not have a copy of State will have to find. It is this point that the Act. They will be told about it now, but I want to press home; there has been a future generations of 18-year-olds could fill complete cut-off of all Federal funds. in a coupon and be found out when they Because the Fraser Government has not enter an establishment. I doubt whether they honoured its promise to maintain contribu­ would be challenged unless they were very tions to various areas such as sport, the State young. If the operation of other forms of is left the task of assisting these bodies. It gambling is any criterion, I doubt this very is a huge task, one that I know the Minister much indeed. But I want the Treasurer to for Sport is concerned about. tell me what happens if, after an 18-year-old We know from the National Fitness point is fined $100, it is found that he has a of view alone that there are no more scholar­ winning coupon. Will he still be paid ships for National Fitness officers to go to $500,000 or whatever it is? Although the Narrabeen. There have been cut-backs also Bill says that it is unlawful for him to on those organisations which wish to build hand in a coupon, I imagine that by the new facilities, and so whilst it is commend­ time it is established that he is under 18 able that we are going to establish a Sports he would have had a very good look at his and Youth Fund I think we would gain coupon. more if the money, the two-thirds of the Again, the Treasurer has not indicated the revenue the State is going to gain from these method of ascertaining the winner or of soccer pools, were put into the new sporting informing him of his win. I believe in one and recreational organisation which will particular pool the holder of a winning evolve from the National Fitness movement coupon has to notify the organiser that he after legislation is introduced this year. Soccer Football (13 & 14 APRIL 1976] Pools Bill 3717

The National Fitness movement is under­ Fitness organisation is the ideal body in this going major reconstruction. At the moment State to carry out these functions at the its budget is about $900,000, which just does moment. It has an excellent expert body at not meet its future needs. We are going State level-people from all walks of sport­ to need more officers in the movement, more ing and recreational life, men and women women officers in various areas and more who know the needs of the community-and officers in the Brisbane region. This is one then at the grass roots level there is the area area that was forgotten for a long time. In committee. It is very unusual in Government addition to the staffing problem, there is a administration because it is totally decentral­ growing requirement in the community for ised and has on it representatives from all multi-purpose complexes, a need to improve interested groups in the community. So we our sporting facilities, a requirement to build have available the ideal mechanism to carry basketball stadiums and so on, which cost out this very important role. many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I stress again that the growth and success a need to provide first-class gymnasiums, that obviously can be achieved through the swimming pools and the like. National Fitness organisation will not be There is also the new move that has been achieved unless money is available. I support made by the Minister for Education to allow the measure that the Minister has brought the community to use schoolgrounds. I can forward except on the one point that the see this developing into school parents and money is to go direct to the Treasury. citizens' associations working with community Although I do not doubt the Treasurer him­ groups in establishing community facilities. self, I do question the wisdom of money We are talking, Mr. Speaker, about youth going straight into the Treasury, because the recreational and sporting areas. Therefore, chance of it getting back to the National it is of vital importance that we come back Fitness organisation would be somewhat to the funding of these facilities. It is quite limited. I should like the Minister to give obvious that, with only $900,000 a year, it honourable members an undertaking that the cannot be done through the existing National major part of this money will go to the Fitness organisation. There is emphasis today National Fitness organisation. After all, it on camping. Some excellent camps are being will not be only National Fitness in the established throughout the State, and we must future; it will be a special type of recreational give credit to the Minister for Sport for the council for the State. If we are to achieve work that he is doing. I know that he is the purpose that the Minister has put for­ interested in this area. ward, it will be best achieved if the National Fitness organisation has funds made available However, Mr. Speaker. we are talking to it. about hundreds upon hundreds of thousands As I said, I support the measures put of dollars for these facilities. New ones are forward. There are no other comments that proposed at Mt. Isa, at the Fairbairn Dam at I wish to make other than that the Bill is not Emerald and at the Tannum Sands area at sufficiently specific in that the money is to Gladstone. Bundaberg and Maryborough also go into a Treasury fund, not into the import­ are now talking about establishing their own ant area in which it is required. camps. We have heard mentioned in this Chamber the ideal site at Happy Valley on Mr. LANE (Merthyr) (12.28 a.m.): The Fraser Island, and a suggestion has also been hour being late, I shall be brief, but I wish put forward that a western vacation camp to ask a few questions about this legislation should be established at Blackall. If vacation on behalf of small businessmen. camps of this type are to be established and if facilities are to be provided for ordinary First, I should like to know-and I invite people, money is needed, and there is no way the Treasurer to tell the House when he in which the National Fitness organisation replies-some of the administrative details can do the work. of how the agencies for the sale of pool tickets will be allocated in the community. Instead of establishing a special fund I understand that there will be some provision through which the money will go to the for principal agents, and that the principal Treasury, I suggest that we should direct it agents will be the Totalisator Administration immediately to the National Fitness organisa­ Board and the Associated Newsagents Co-op­ tion. It has played an exceptional role in the erative (Queensland) Limited. I should like provision of sporting facilities and the devel­ to know whether the authority to establish opment of sporting activities in this State, agencies, to license them or to give them out and it is developing further in the field of to small newsagents will be delegated to the recreational and youth activities because of Totalisator Administration Board or some the Youth Inquiry report. It matters little committee under its control, or whether it what functions that organisation accepts for will be delegated to the committee of the itself if it has not the funds that it needs to Associated Newsagents Co-operative Limited. carry out those functions. Most of the queries that I have received I should like the Minister to give honour­ in my electorate have been from small news­ able members an undertaking that the major agents who are scratching a living in an area part of this money will be directed into the in which industry is expanding and in which National Fitness area, because the National newspaper sales and their clientele have been 3718 Soccer Football [13 & 14 APRIL 1976] Pools Bill

decreasing. They would welcome the oppor­ effect of the pools on other organised gamb­ tunity to have another small source of ling will be minimal. The idea behind the income. That is probably all it would be. soccer pools movement is simply to provide Perhaps the Treasurer could give us an more money for the advancement of sport, explanation of that. etc. I should like to know what commission The honourable member also raised the the small newsagent will receive for the sale issue of the 37 per cent that will make of coupons. I understand that the total up the prize-money. Later, when poo!s are commission provided is about 12t per cent. firmly established throughout Australia _we That 12t per cent will go to the principal may be able to cut down on operatmg agents I referred to, but the base commis­ sion paid to their respective outlets is a costs and reallocate that saving to boost the matter for those principal agents to decide. prize fund percentage, but until then the pro­ l wonder just what part of that 12t per motional costs will be fairly high. cent will be retained by the two principal The honourable member for Rockhampton agents, and what will be passed on to the endeavoured to impress upon me the need small newsagent. Those points are not clear to me. for funds to go to National Fitness: I a~1 not prepared to make _any promises m I suggest that the Treasurer or those relation to that. At the mtroductory stage administering the Bill consider some form I stated quite clearly _that ;ve would not of educational programme, perhaps by way curtail the funds provtded m our a~nual of an explanation on television where it State Budget for assistance to sport. I pomted could be physically illustrated just how the out that in the last B t1dget the sum of coupons should be filled in by those who $2,400,000, a good portion of which is. set desire to participate in soccer pools. In aside for National Fitness, was provided Great Britain the pools are very big busi­ and that that would be the base. Any ness, and as children grow up they learn funds that come to the State from so~cer in the home how to do their pool sheets pools will be distribute~ .a:nong the va~wus every week. The general community in sporting and youth actiVIties.. An a~visory Queensland has had no such experience. committee will be set up to dtscuss With the Forms of any kind can be confusing. I Minister the best way in which ~hose funds should like the authority to consider some can be distributed. I am sure this will best sort of educational programme. serve the interests of everyone. I am very happy that money will now be The honourable member also felt that provided for sport from another source. I the money should not be paid into . the would hope that a sizable proportion of it Treasury. The bulk of the revenue received would find its way into the hands of the by the State must pass through the ~r7~sury, Queensland Soccer Federation. Soccer is a which is after all the hub of the activities of great sport, and I was disappointed when I all departments. Unless some general control heard an honourable member opposite say is exercised by the Treasury over the total something against soccer. As the pools are operation, the priorities could become very operated on soccer matches, I hope that a much mixed up. substantial contribution will be made to that sport. The honourable member for Merthyr asked how agents would be appointed: It is my understanding that the control Will ~e exer­ Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ cised through the princii?al collectiOn . and Deputy Premier and Treasurer) (12.33 a.m.). distribution agents, that 1s, the Associated in reply: There are just one or two matters Newsagents Co-operative (Qld.) Ltd. and the that perhaps I should clear up. The honour­ T.A.B. The commission will be as has be_en able member for Bulimba said that this was laid down in the discussions I have had Wit~ just another form of gambling. To an extent certain people. We still have to call appli­ that is true, but pools selections can involve cations. As I indicated at the introductory a degree of skill. He expressed concern that it staae I do not think anyone would be better may ha\'e an effect on other forms of gamb­ ab!~ 'to set up this organisation t~an t?ose ling from which the State receives revenue. people with whom we have had dtscusswns. No doubt some of the money that will find The commission will be 12t per cent, and its way into pools would otherwise have any newsagents who are appointed will prob­ been spent in bets on galloping, trotting or ably receive 7t per cent of that 12t per coursing. Generally speaking, from my own cent as a base commission. The fact that experience over many years, I would say this organisation is a co-operativ_e means that that although there might be a slight transfer indirectly he would also share m any profit of funds from one sport to another, in the made by his co-operative as a result of long run it seems to balance out and all of handling pools business. the organisations seem to continue to oper­ ate. Perhaps it could have some effect on As to teaching people how to fill in the chook raffles in hotels, but we consider the coupons-my discussions reveal that the pro­ pools will appeal to many who would not moters intend to spend large sums of money normally support the T.A.B. or chook in the early stages on their promotional raffles. Our investigations conclude that the programme. I am quite cotlfldent that the Fire Brigades Act and [13 & 14 APRIL 1976] Another Act Amendment Bili 3719 average Australian will pick up very quickly Recently I received queries on whether the the way in which to take part in soccer public is getting value for money spent on pools. fire-fighting services, which tend to become Motion (Sir Gordon Chalk) agreed to. an ever-increasing burden upon citizens and businesses. The Treasury is concerned that the cost of fire brigades is rising dispropor­ COMMITTEE tionately to the cost of general Government (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. services. Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) The opinion has been expressed that salary Clauses 1 to 21, both inclusive, as read, increases, which constitute 80 per cent of agreed to. total annual costs of boards, are outpacing those in many sections of the community. Bill reported, without amendment. As an example, comparing 1972-73 with 1975-76, there has been an increase of 138 THIRD READING per cent in fire brigade board costs. Increased Bill, on motion of Sir Gordon Chalk, by wages and salaries have accounted for a leave, read a third time. large proportion of this. However, neither the Government, the insurance industry nor local authorities have the right to participate in the negotiating or FIRE BRIGADES ACT AND ANOTHER fixing of wages and conditions of employees ACT AMENDMENT BILL of boards subject to awards or industrial agreements. While it is desirable that indivi­ SECOND READING dual boards should have scope to negotiate Hon. F. A. CAMPBELL (Aspley-Minis­ in respect of their own employees on ter for Industrial Development, Labour domestic matters, it is desired that the State Relations and Consumer Affairs) (12.41 Fire Services Council be empowered to a.m.): I move- advance the viewpoint of the Government, "That the Bill be now read a second insurance industry and local authorities col­ time." lectively where the matters in dispute may affect the service as a whole or another fire Honourable members will recall the prin­ brigade board. The amendments to the Act ciples enunciated at the introductory stage of will, we hope, discourage industrial agree­ these important amendments to the Fire ments being made which lead to leap-frog­ Brigades Act 1964--1973 and the Fire Safety ging between boards or sections of the ser­ Act 1974, and they have now had an oppor­ vice. tunity to study the proposals in detail. Increases in wages to some fire brigade The Bill changes the allocation of pre­ employees between June 1972 and February cepts which policyholders are required to 1976 have been 88.5 per cent for first-class contribute to the maintenance of fire brigades firemen and 101.8 per cent for country chief from a levy upon premiums paid to a levy officers. Salary increases for officers have upon the sums insured. I dealt with this occurred at a time when there has been a point at the introductory stage. The Bill reduction in the weekly hours, first from 56 also proposes that the State Fire Services to 48, and then to 42. Council be deemed an employer in indus­ trial matters which the council considers The percentage increases quoted do not affect more than one board. It is realistic, take into account service incremental pay­ surely, that when disputes overlap board ments and allowances for the use of breath­ boundaries, as they so often do, there should ing apparatus, which can add another $691 be one voice on behalf of the boards con­ per person to brigade costs. Shorter working cerned. hours and longer leave have required a The Government expects and will require large increase in fire-brigade staff in the last -I want to emphasise this-the State Fire three ,to four years. I emphasise that, in Services Council to consult closely with mentioning these increases, I am dealing individual boards in the types of disputes only with the question of costs. I am not specified. In fact, to spell it out quite reflecting at all on the personnel of brigades. clearly, briefs the council will argue will The honourable member for Rockhampton incorporate the views of individual boards North referred in his comments to a state­ concerned. ment that fire services in Queensland are the A legitimate area of concern to the Gov­ most expensive in the world. His statement, ernment is the sky-rocketing cost of fire ser­ whether correct or not, reinforces the need vices. Fire brigade boards, of course, are for the amendment included in the Bill. I not directly responsible for raising funds mentioned when introducing the Bill that for their operation. In this they are for­ there is an increasing consultation between tunate. For my part, I cannot overstate the State fire services and the Commonwealth. Government's concern at the continuing and However, the charter of the Australian Fire exceptionally high increases in its contri­ Board confines it to Government property bution to fire brigade costs. It shares this in the Federal sphere. All States agree that concern with other contributories-the there has been no proven need for a na.tional insurance industry and local authorities. fire board. 3720 Fire Brigades Act and [13 & 14 APRIL 1976] Another Act Amendment Bill

There are other minor aspects of the Bill, whether he could really explain and interpret which I think were elaborated on at the it unless he took the trouble to talk to the introductory stage. people concerned with its framing. Mr. YEWDALE (Rockhampton North) One of the most controversial proposals in (1_2.48 a.m.): The Fire Brigade Act and the the Bill provides that the State Fire Services Frre Safety Act, which are now being Council will be deemed an employer. This amended, were the subject of what I would was raised by the Minister tonight. I per­ describe as extensive amendments in 1974. sonally wonder what is the motive behind Sections 3, 11, 16, 19, 23, 29, 35, 36 and this measure. It could be suggested that the council has had experience of fire brigade so on were amended, and a new section boards not being able to handle a disputa­ 16A inserted, which related to trust funds. tion or perhaps some board or boards have ln all, approximately 15 amendments were provoked disputation. made. Now, in 1976 we have a similar number of amendments. They are further Since these pToposals were ventilated in alterations to the amendments that were this Chamber last week I have seen several before us in 1974. At the con­ different strong objections emanating from clusion of the 1974 amendments we were country boards and country officer ·.groups. told that the then comprehensive Act con­ It has been said that no consultation took taining some 50 sections should eventually place prior to the introduction of this pro­ be . of great benefit to the community. I posal. I cannot prove whether that is factual believe that provisions of the 1974 amend­ or not; but I am actually quoting the words ments have in the main remained as mere of a representative of a Queensland board. verbiage in the Act, with no real effort having been made to do much about fire risk Over all, as I indicated in my speech at and public safety. the introductory stage, while an Act of this nature will of necessity be amended fairly I wish to refer to .the "Record of the regularly I consider that the State Fire Ser, Legislative Acts" relating to the Second vices Council is by no means coming to Session of the Fortieth Parliament in 1973- grips with fire safety and there is an apparent 74, which is produced by the Premier's need for immediate drastic action in the Department. At page 109 it says- metropolitan area. "If the fire authority (that is, the Metro­ Tonight the Minister spoke of the need for politan Fire Brigades Board or the State identification of the State Fire Services Coun­ Fire Services Council) considers •that •the cil as an employer and of the overlapping of risk to persons in the event of fire is so boundaries where disputes could occur. To serious in a particular building that the continue with that argument, it could be said risk should be reduced to a reasonable that wherever a dispute occurs in any board level, a Supreme Court injunction may be area, it could overlap. It is not as if it sought to prohibit or restrict the use of the premises. would be isolated in a compact area; it seems that an overlap could take place when "Provision is also made in the Act for employees endeavour to achieve better work­ consultation between local authorities and ing conditions, hours, leave or anything else. t~e fire ~uthorities in connection with any drspensatwn from fire safety requirements I appreciate and accept that the problem or any alterations to plans or premises. confronting the fire services in the State­ Specific power is given to fire safety probably elsewhere in Australia and for that officers to enter and inspect premises at matter throughout the world-is one of all reasonable times for the purposes of costs. Nobody can deny that that is a prob­ t~e A~t. Regulation-making power is pro­ lem. We have to provide fire services, fire vrded m the Act governing fire precautions precaution and fire safety in the community inclusive of internal construction of at large, so that we are confronted with that premises, the materials used, and the cost whatever we do and we will be con" specified standard of furnishings. Pro­ fronted with rising costs in the natural course vision is included in the legislation so that of events. a fire safety officer cannot apply a require­ In my speech at the introductory stage I ment more onerous than provided in the regulations." referred to the need for a national co­ ordinating body. This is one way we could This sort of action has not been taken by reduce costs on an over-all basis in a the State Fire Services Council and I refer number of ways. Equipment could be bought particularly to the situation in the metro­ in bulk for all fire services. Training tech­ politan ::trea. niques could be adopted and training centres could be established on the basis that every­ fncluded in the Bill is a rather lengthy body shares in a national training centre amendment covering the requirements of rather than have training centres scattered companies as to stock declaration policies. throughout the Commonwealth. Employees To my mind the amendment is so ponderous trained and qualified in this way could move that the Minister, if he decided to take the from State to State. I think a national trouble, would take all night to explain it co-ordinating body would be one way to to the House. I have some little doubt bring costs down. ~Fire Brigades Act and [13 & 14 APRIL 1976] Another Act Amendment Bill 3721

The Minister also made reference to leave, and training of personnel-it seems to have hours of work and general working condi­ overstepped the mark and launched into the tions. I know he mentioned this in relation industrial field. to costs, and I accept that qualification. I If I remember correctly, the individual do not think we can avoid that question boards formed what they called the Queens­ either, because this is a pattern of society land Country Fire Brigade Boards Union of where each and every group of people is try­ Employers and employed a full-time advo­ ing to improve its standard of living in cate, who represents them at industrial dis­ accordance with the wealth and productivity putes. It is not the individual board chair­ of the country. I might point out in fairness man or the individual board member who to people within the fire service that as a enters into what the Minister called sweet­ group they are confronted with an occupa­ heart agreements. The boards are repre­ tion which on many occasions does not allow sented by a trained, skilled industrial officer them to take the type of action that the who does their industrial work for them. average unionist, the blue and white-collar worker, is able to take in the commercial I do not think that the boards are of poor field. I feel that they have used restraint. standard. In Part II of the Act, section 6 So I suggest that they be looked at in a lays down very specifically how boards shall different light to other workers. I suppose be constituted. The Governor in Council I should include ambulance bearers and some shall, by notification published in the Gazette, people working in nursing homes and old appoint two members; the contributory com­ people's homes in that remark. I do not panies shall elect three members; and the think they should be discriminated against local authority shall elect two members. simply because theirs is a service industry. These are all men of substance, and I do not The Opposition naturally welcomes the see them entering into airy-fairy sweetheart agreements. I suggest that the additional cost amendments in the sense that there is a cannot be attributed to the poor standard strengthening of contributions which are of boards and that that cannot be used by the necessary to maintain this service. Naturally central council as an excuse to assume more we go along with amendments designed to power and get more control over the individ­ provide a better and more streamlined fire ual boards. It is only a power grab by a service. centralised authority to assume the responsi­ Finally I reiterate that I feel there is a lot bility of the boards in industrial matters. to be desired in the service. I will not go In my opinion, this matter should be into detail as I did during the introductory looked at again by the Minister and consid­ debate-my comments have been recorded­ ered in depth because it is a retrograde step. but the arguments, the figures and the details It should not have been brought before the I put forward can be justified. We should House until all the boards in Queensland have done something very drastic about our had considered it. From the information I fire service long ago. I will reserve any can gather, very few boards had been given other comments until we debate the clauses. an opportunity to comment on it before the Bill was brought to the House. Dr. SCO'IT-YOUNG (Townsville) (12.58 a.m.): I rise to speak to this amendment The only consolation that I can see in these because I consider, after reading some of amendments-and great publicity has already the speeches made during the introductory been given to it-is the removal of the fire debate, that the true issue has not really been levy in areas in which no service has been aired in this House. Tonight the Minister rendered. This is not before time, either. I gave us much more detail about two very have correspondence dating back to 1971-72 important alterations to the Act. in which various associations, including the United Graziers Association, have been One of .the provisions with which I will agitating for its removal. deal is the amendment to section 23 of the principal Act, which relates to the duties I reiterate that I do not believe that the of the council. Section 23 (f) refers to the interference with the ordinary boards is a council examining the budget of each board. forward step. I think it is a retrograde step In his speech the Minister referred to that can only lead to disharmony and disunity escalating costs. I do not think that escalat­ amongst the boards, which are doing a very ing costs can be completely blamed on good job at present. As I pointed out, the individual boards. These boards are in the members of those boards are elected by the grip of spiralling costs. Extra holidays are Governor in Council, insurance companies awarded, which again increase costs. The and local authorities. They are men of cost of equipment has also been spiralling substance who are quite capable of negotiat­ in recent years. Unfortunately, fire-fighting ing agreements through their industrial equipment is expensive and there is very little officers without having the council interfering competition in its marketing so that there in their work. is not keen competition amongst suppliers to reduce costs. If that is why the council Mr. JONES (Cairns) (1.3 a.m.): I wish to decided to take control of things other than comment on only one aspect of the Bill and. those for which it was originally designed because of the lateness of the hour, I shall -which was standardisation of equipment be brief. 3722 Fire Brigades Act and [13 & 14 APRIL 1976] Another Act Amendment Bill

It relates to the Fire Services Council being Fire Services Council. Indeed, he was quite deemed to be the employer in matters relating proud that he was acting on their advice to negotiation of wages, settlement of dis­ and recommendations. It has come to mv putes, and any arbitration or provision of an knowledge that those people have been industrial agreement or award that affects or completely ignored in these amendments. is likely to affect, in the council's opinion, They were unaware that they were to be more than one board. These seem to be very brought before Parliament. They are rather wide provisions, indicating that where more concerned that local autonomy is being than one board may be affected the council eroded by this Government. It is a practice can step in and negotiate or arbitrate on of this Government. It did it only recently behalf of one board. This premise is resented when certain responsibilities were taken from by the boards. It appears to me that they are ambulance committees. To date the practice very jealous of their autonomy and that has not been applied so much to hospital members of the boards believe that this pro­ boards, but we find it now being applied to vision will restrict the scope and extent of fire brigade boards. their jurisdiction. They feel very strongly I think the Minister would be well aware about it. that at the annual meeting of the country A new subclause is being inserted. The boards last year it was resolved that the Minister said that individuai boards should Minister in charge of fire services should have scope to operate and that it was not the not attempt to alter the Act without prior purpose of the Bill to enable the council to consultat:on with them and the Fire Services interfere too greatly. Council and without obtaining their views. He indicated that what he wanted to do On this occasion no views have been asked was discourage industrial agreements between for. The primary functions of the Fire Ser­ boards and members of the service. I have vices Council concern the standardisation of equipment and things of that nature, but received ~ teler>ram from the Cairns Fire Brigade Board , which indicates the feeling now it is coming round to the industrial of resentment and other strong feelings about side of fire services. the Bill. In its telegram the board indicates As the honourable member for Cairns that it would wish to have the proposed has said, the fire boards are wondering amendments withdrawn because it has not whether they will be rubber stamps and been consulted about them. It says that the whether they are really wanted by the Min­ B!ll will cause the boards to eventually ister and the council to carry out local become rubber stamps. Those are very administration and to assume responsibility strong words from the Cairns Fire B6gade for fire services. Bo~rd. It believes that it is efficiently carry­ inc: out the aff11irs of the board and that. I would be pleased if the Minister would with its own loc:Jl knowledge, the board take notice of the protest coming from would be in the best position to conduct Ipswich. Like the honourable member for the bo8rd's affairs. It strongly resents the Cairns, I have received a telegram from my intimation contained in the proposed amend­ people, and I am rather concerned that this ments that it will be interfered with in its should be happening. I was a member of administration. the fire board in Ipswich for some years It has also indicated that the propo,ed anJ I know it is doing a wonderful job. amendments are contrary to all information Over many years industrial trouble has arisen supplied by authority. I suppose that means in a certain other city. Whether this is an the Fire Services Council or the Minister. attempt to overcome things such as that, I It indicates its resentment and says that do not know. The protest I make is that the Bill represents an intrusion into the the Government should have taken into board's control. It further says that that account the advice from the fire brigades intrusion was guaranteed by Ministers not and the council services. to take place. Apparently the board has had some assurance previously that such an intru­ Hon. F. A. CAMPBELL (Aspley-Minis­ sion into the autonomy of the board would ter for Industrial Development, Labour not occur. The board has sought my repre­ Relations and Consumer Affairs) (1.12 sentations on its behalf from the floor of a.m.), in reply: I thank honourable members the House. I hope the Minister will deem for the spirit in which they have entered it riQ;ht and proper to comment on that in into this debate. Referring firstly to the his reply. Because of the lateness of the comments of the honourable member for hour, I will surprise the House by con­ Rockhampton North-some of the points cluding my remarks at that point. raised by him are not connected with the contents of the Bill but refer generally to Mr. MARGINSON (Wolston) (1.8 a.m.): fire safety, which is dealt with under the I h2ve received protests from the local fire Fire Safety Act. Without any rancour he board in Ipswich. It has been pointed out questions my ability to understand certain to me that when the Minister last intro­ aspects of the Bill. Having had 10 years' duced amendments to the Fire Brigades Act experience in a fire, marine and accident he stressed that those amendments were insurance office, I think I can say that I being brought down as a result of reauests have had a close acquaintance with all from country fire brigade boards and the aspects of that type of insurance and with Fire Brigades Act and [J 3 & 14 APRIL 1976] Another Act Amendment Bill 3723 all humility I would claim that I would that he even contacted my officers. The very know more about the principles of insurance words in the telegrams are sufficient to than perhaps any other member. prove my point. It reads- He referred to overlapping, which I dealt "It can readily be seen that with the with at the introductory stage. He put for­ S.F.S.C.'s control of staff approval, budget­ ward the suggestion that perhaps fire ing and now industrial function to the brigades could reduce their costs by bulk point of being the employer boards' buying and standardisation. It is difficult to employees fire boards are becoming little get some boards to accept standardisation in less than a rubber stamp and the control relation to machines. I am sure most of fire services is quickly becoming cen­ reasonable people will acknowledge that tralised allowing for an easier take-over of since the Fire Services Council standardised the boards throughout Queensland.'' the design of fire engines tremendous sav­ ings have been effected. Even at this late hour I shall take one minute to dwell on that. About 18 months The honourable member also pointed out ago a furphy was raised when some person that people engaged in fire-fighting services promoted the belief that this very thing was constitute a group who are confronted with about to happen, that is, that the State Fire far more dangers than persons in most other Services Council or the Government was to vocations. This is well acknowledged. In take over the operation of fire brigade none of my remarks did I intend to cast boards or diminish their autonomy. any slur on those persons engaged in fire­ fighting services. I made a special point at Maryborough­ The honourable member for Townsville the honourable member for Wolston remin­ referred to the escalation of costs and said ded me of this-to assure the boards at their that it cannot be blamed on the boards. annual conference that that was the last Again I say that we are not laying the blame thing the Government wanted to do. Hav­ on the boards. What we are simply pointing ing told the House that, I emphasise that I out is that the cost of fire services has take a fairly poor view of the points made escalated over the past two years far more by the chairman of the Country Fire Bri­ rapidly than that of any other service in gades Board Union of Employers in his the community. This is imposing an increas­ memo headed- ing burden upon the community. The honourable member spoke of sweet­ "Urgent Attention! heart agreements. I have referred to that "Secretaries please inform the chairman of matter already. I assure him that the minor your board and board immediately amendments which give authority to the Fire Services Council in certain areas of industrial disputation cannot be regarded as a power "Notice to All Boards grab. "Legislation introduced Parliament 8th April, The honourable member for Cairns Amendment Fire Brigades AcL" referred particular·ly to the Fire Services Council being involved when more than one This is what he said-- board is concerned in industrial action. I l'l1r. Yewdale: You are not going to read repeat the assurance I gave at the introduc­ all of the two foolsc:cp pages? tory stage, namely. that before any action is taken by the Fire Services Council under the Mr. CAMPBELL: f will read two para­ minor increase in powers conferred by this graphs because they are important in the legislation full consultation will take place light of what has been said. They are in with the respective fire brigade boards. I these terms- cannot make that plainer. "It has appeared obvious to my Execu­ The honourable members for Cairns and tive that the S.F.S.C. has for some time Wolston referred to telegrams they had engaged o;1 a project to increase its power received. Perhaps they might be excused for and diminish the role of Fire Brigade believing that they were spontaneous, unsoli­ Boards in Queensland. cited telegrams. Oddly enough, I have a circular which the chairman, Mr. Gardner, a "My Executive revealed this to the very good friend of mine, apparently sent Boards last year when suggestions were to every fire brigade board in Queensland. made to dissolve all Boards and place the S.F.S.C. in control." Mr. Yewdale: Did he send you a copy? It is not very becoming of the chairman of Mr. CAMPBELL: No, he did not. I am the Country Fire Brigades Board to rake up glad that the honourable member for Rock­ coals that did not even develop a glimmer hampton North raised that matter. Because at the conference last year, when I am sure of the relationship I have enjoyed with Mr. they accepted the Government's assurance. Gardner over many years, I should have However, I find, from a notification that thought that if he had any concern about the bears a date of a few days ago, that this import of this Bill he would at least have rumour is still being propagated. taken the trouble to inquire from me. I can speak only for myself, but I am not aware Motion (Mr. Campbell) agreed to. 3724 Fire Brigades Act and [13 & 14 APRIL 1976] Another Act Amendment Bill

COMMITTEE Clause 13-Amendment of s. 36; Appor­ (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. tionment of contribution-amongst contributory Hewitt, Chatswor.th, in the chair) companies- Clauses 1 to 9, both inclusive, as read, Mr. YEWDALE (Rockhampton North) agreed to. (1.24 a.m.): In my second-reading speech I made reference to what I shall call the jargon Clause 10-Amendment of s. 23; Duties used in drawing up these Bills. The Minister of Council- indicated that his long experience gives him the right to say that he can interpret the.m. Mr. YEWDALE (Rockhampton North) When a Bill is handed to people outside (1.21 a.m.): Very briefly, it would seem from this Chamber for consideration or perus~l the comment of ,the Minister just now about it is difficult for them to understand what the aim of clause 10 that some dissension is meant. has been created throughout the fire boards. This aspect has been raised before, not only I asked earlier in my contribution whether concerning this legislation but also concerning there was any ulterior motive of the Fire the procedure of Parliament itself. I referred Services Council's doing this. It would seem earlier to a Record of the Legislative Acts that it would have been much more appro­ prepared by the Premier's Department. A priate in the past if they had exercised person can read through it and come to a jurisdiction in administration of the boards reasonable understanding of the purpose of rather than in this particular area of indus­ the Bill or amendment and can readily relate trial disputation. I leave it at that and that to the debate in this Chamber. That is suggest that time will tell how this clause not the case when it is looked at separately really functions and how the fire brigade on paper. This is a very lengthy clause; boards react to it. indeed it is probably one of the longest that I am not really able to assess where this would be seen. I felt it necessary to make will go. It is obvious that the boards do the point concerning laymen who are inter­ not like being interfered with. Suggestions ested in legislation that affects them, for or promises have been made here tonight instance, firemen or fire brigade board mem­ that they will not be interfered with; they bers who are trying to understand this jargon. will be consulted quite clearly and thoroughly Hon. F. A. CAMPBELL (Aspley-Minister before the Fire Services Council moves in. for Industrial Development, Labour Relations I can only suggest that time will tell and and Consumer Affairs) (1.26 a.m.): I apprec­ we will probably be talking about it further. iate that. I am glad that the honourable member raised this point. Excluding the Mr. JONES (Cairns) (1.22 a.m.): We are jargon, clause 13 provides that the apportion­ pleased to have the assurance of the Minister, ment of contribution amongst insurance com­ and 1 am sure that the fire brigade boards panies follows the basis in clause 12, that the would be pleased to receive 'that assurance, percentage of the sum insured is included in too. I think it is only right that we as members the basis only for stock declaration policies representing the Cairns area should bring and that the maximum loss policies are defined forward in a responsible manner any repre­ for contribution purposes. It is important sentations we receive from a body such as that the percentage no longer applies to the Cairns Fire Brigade Board. I am sure householders' comprehensive insurance, tele­ the Minister would concur that the Cairns vision insurance and motor vehicle insurance Fire Brigade Board contains men of very which formerly were taken into account. high calibre and standing in the community, They were excluded for contribution pur­ as most members of fire brigade boards in poses, and adjustment of reinsurance is left all centres are. I 'think we have a respon­ to the companies concerned. sibility and duty to bring these matters before the Chamber at this stage of the debate. The honourable member tempts me to give a half-hour delineation of what that means Mr. AKERS (Pine Rivers) (1.23 a.m.): This simply. It involves over 50 lines of printing. morning I had a visit from the chairman of I can say to the honourable member that this the Pine Rivers Fire Brigade. is directed to the insurance industry and it will certainly understand it. It is necessary Mr. Houston: That was yesterday, wasn't to put it in this way because we are creating it? a major change in the determination of the levy by switching from premiums charged to Mr. AKERS: Yes. Yesterday I had a visit sums insured. from the chairman of the Pine Rivers Fire Clause 13, as read, agreed to. Brigade complaining about this clause. I have listened to the Minister's comments and Clauses 14 to 16, both inclusive, as read, I will be passing them on to the chairman. agreed to. However, I feel I should express those fears Clause 17-Amendment of s. 60; Penalty of the board's, and the hope that the provisions- Minister's assurances will be kept. Mr. YEWDALE (Rockhampton North) Clause 10, as read, agreed to. (1.28 a.m.): Clause 17 refers briefly to the Clauses 11 and 12, as read, agreed to. action that can be taken by the State Fire Fire Brigades Act, &c., Bill [13 & 14 APRIL 1976] Gas Act Amendment Bill 3725

Services Council as to the furnishing of proved; but it did seem to me that the reports by boards within a stipulated period. persons at whom the charges were being A penalty of $100 is provided and, if the levelled did not have any real opportunity order is not complied with within 14 days, a to defend themselves, and it was only when penalty of $20 a day can be imposed. It they produced some evidence that they could seems to me very unlikely that this clause not possibly have been responsible that the would be operated. I cannot see the council board then dropped the charge. carrying it out. I think it is nebulous in the sense that it is put there to sound a note of Hon. F. A. CAMPBELL (Aspley­ warning to secretaries and boards concerned. Minister for Industrial Development, Labour I do not know whether the Minister can tell Relations and Consumer Affairs) (1.32 a.m.): me of any penalties imposed by the council This is clause 18 (b), is it? in other directions and/ or in this direction. Mr. Yewdale: Yes. I do not have the experience of many years but it seems to me to be a clause that will Mr. CAMPBELL: If the honourable not be put into effect and is there for the member for Merthyr were here, he would interest of the people concerned who should recall that he has brought at least half a do something about it. dozen cases to my notice of persons owning property allowing a fire hazard such as long Hon. F. A. CAMPBELL (Aspley-Min­ grass to develop which I have had the fire ister for Industrial Development, Labour brigade attend to. This subclause simply Relations and Consumer Affairs) (1.29 a.m.): provides for a daily penalty and I think the Far from its being nebulous, I will give a honourable member would accept that the very real reason for it. At 9 o'clock this continued failure of a person to comply with evening I met the executive of the country a fire brigade notice to remove a fire fire brigade boards, who indicated to me a hazard-- desire for the continuation of the autonomy Mr. Y ewdale: How would that apply to that ,they enjoy. I reiterated to them, as I a Government department in a similar situa­ have said earlier in discussion on this legis­ tion? lation, that the Government does not wish to impinge on their autonomy; but in ceding, Mr. CAMPBELL: I do not think the and continuing to cede, to the fire brigade Government department would need any boards their autonomy the Government nudging on it. expects them to discharge their duties as Clause 18, as read, agreed to. required, just the same as any other reput­ able organisation. I do not want to name Clauses 19 to 22, both inclusive, as read, a board which is offending in this regard, but agreed to. I am tempted ,to. I have become sick and Bill reported, without amendment. tired of writing to the secretary of a certain country board asking that he please furnish THIRD READING me with the 1974-75 annual report. It is many, many months overdue. This should Bill, on motion of Mr. Campbell, by not happen. If boards want their autonomy, leave, read a third time. they have to live up to the responsibility which that implies. Most of the boards are punctilious in their functioning, but there are one or two which are not and this is GAS ACT AMENDMENT BILL a very real reason for this imposition. Clause 17, as read, agreed to. SECOND READING Clause IS-Amendment of Sch. I.- Hon. R. E. CAMM (Whitsunday­ Minister for Mines and Energy) (1.35 a.m.): Mr. YEWDALE (Rockhampton North) I move- (1.31 a.m.): This clause relates to per­ "That the Bill be now read a second sons who have received benefit from ser­ time." vices rendered by the board when there has Before outlining the Bill in detail, there are been a house fire, grass fire or any other some matters which I should mention. sort of fire. In some instances a number of householders can be involved and the board When I spoke at the close of the debate can impose a charge on those people who foHowing my introduction of the Bill, I have had their properties protected by the referred to the downturn in oil and gas service given by it. I have had an experience exploration in recent years-to be precise, of this in my electorate and ,there is some during the period 1972 to 1975 under the doubt about proving who actually benefited Federal Labor Government. The disincentives from the service or who was respon.sible for to petroleum exploration had an Australia­ the fire. Without going into detail, in the wide effect, but they are of particular con­ case I am referring to it was alleged that cern in the matter of the future supply of certain people caused a fire and were going natural gas to south-eastern Queensland. to be charged with the cost incurred by the As has been acknowledged, my department board. After some investigation it was has expressed its concern during the three found that this allegation could not be years in question as to the need to discover 3726 Gas Act [13 & 14 APRIL 1976) Amerulment Bill

additional reserves of natural gas. These are to the Roma to Brisbane pipeline. This required to supply users in south-eastern consoPtium is also negotiating sales of gas to Queensland beyond the present contractual the fertilizer plant. period for those reserves at present connected It is possible, as well, that some other to the pipeline, and, if possible, to enable minor discoveries which were made some the connection of other potential users. If time ago in the Roma area, but never sufficient new reserves are not found to be connected to the pipeline, can be brought available, then alternative sources of gas into economic consideration. The performance will need to be developed. of all gas-fields in the Roma area is being Unfortunately, there is only one way to kept under close review by petroleum engin­ prove or disprove the existence of deposits eers of my department to assess future of oil and gas, that is, by intensive and deliverabiHty. Reserves are updated on an costly drilling. In order to find prospective annua.J basis and published in the annual targets, detailed seismic surveys need to be report of the department. undertaken and the results examined. Explora­ One well has been drilled early this year tion teams, involving both seismic and driHing in the Cooper Basin in the far south-west crews, have mostly left Australia to find of the State, but it was unsuccessful. Two employment elsewhere, along with many additional wells are to be dr.illed in the highly trained petroleum geologists and Queensland portion of the basin this year, as engineers. soon as the abnormal flood conditions recede There are encouraging signs of renewed sufficiently to enable movement of equipment. interest in petroleum exploration in southern At present only a few per cent of Cooper Queensland, but it is not going to be possible Basin gas reserves have been found in to get exploration teams here to bring drilling Queensland. In order to promote additional activity back to a desirable level immediately. exploration and to facilitate orderly develop­ Furthermore, one thing is certain: even if we ment of the pe•troleum resources of the can get exploration back into full stream and basin, negotiations have recently been initiated achieve the success we hope, the petroleum between the various parties to enable the discovered will be much more expensive to Queensland fields to be developed as a pro­ develop and produce. If some form of ductive unit with those in South Australia. exploration subsidy is not reintroduced, aH If sufficient additional gas reserves can be these increases in costs will end up with the discovered in the Cooper Basin, it is hoped consumer. that it will prove economic for gas from The picture has been painted in some this source to be supplied to south-eastern quarters that, while my department recognises Queensland. the problems of future natural gas supply to south-eastern Queensland. and has done so In some areas of the Cooper Basin petro­ leum liquids, either in the form of oii or for some time,- it has done nothing towards condensate, occur with the gas. In present solv·ing the problem. This is not the case. terms, because of the reserve situation in Furthermore, I have to say that, apart from relation to existing commitments for the selectively quoting from !he annual report supply of Cooper Basin gas to Adelaide and of the Government Gas Engineer and Chief Sydney, a more attractive alternative would Gas Examiner, the Leader of the Opposition appear to be transmission of these liquids appears to confuse past shortages of liquefied to Brisbane by a pipeline from Moomba, petroleum gas with natural gas matters. Suffice in the far north-east of South Australia, it to say that when such shortages do occur, possibly connecting to the Moonie pipeline. they are very often due to industrial dis­ Officers of my department are co-operating location. with the Department of Commercial and I now propose to refer briefly to the main Industrial Development and the Common­ avenues of additional gas supply that are wealth's pipeline authority to examine the presently under active investigation. feasibility of this scheme, which would be in competition with the proposed Redcliffs The company which has discovered a small petrochemical scheme in South Australia. If ras field at Kincora, 35 miles south of the Queensland proposal is successful, it Roma, has applied to me for a petroleum would mean that the liquid hydrocarbons lease and proposes to bEi!d a spur line to from the Cooper Basin would find use here connect with the Roma to Brisbane pipeline as feedstock for the local refineries and the at WallumbiHa. As previously mentioned, it fertiliser plant, as well as being capable of has a number of exploration targets in its being reformed to gas to supplement natural farm-out block. Negotiations for the sale of gas from fields in southern Queensland. gas from the Kincora field to the fertilizer plant are at an advanced stage. In the longer term, unless very large dis­ coveries of natural gas can be made, we will As was reported in the Press on Friday, h&.ve to look to gasification of some of the 2 April, the consortium which discovered gas vast coal reserves of the State. As I have at Silver Springs and Boxleigh, also s.outh previously mentioned, a promising project of Roma, is commencing a two-well pro­ of this nature is that based on coal deposits gramme to confirm and extend its reserves. in the Millmerran area of the Darling It is hoped that additional drilling wHl Downs. The success of this project will follow and enable connection of these fields involve overseas technology and, I venture Gas Act [13 & 14 APRIL 1976] Amendment Bill 3727

to say, considerable overseas finance. It did Several clauses have been amended to not get any encouragement from the previous extend the operation of "gas undertaking" to Federal Government, but a more reasonable "gas franchise" as the former term meant view on foreign investment now prevails in only the distribution of gas through under­ Canberra. I shall certainly continue to give ground pipe systems, whereas many fran­ it every possible assistance to become a chises and sections of franchises can only reality. It should be realised, however, that exist by virtue of the distribution of L.P. considerable lead times are involved in coal gas. Provision has been made for consolida­ conversion projects, and capital costs are tion of all gas-fitting, including town gas, very large. L.P. gas and automotive LP. gas-fitting, under the Gas Act, but existing licence I turn now to the matter of safety of holders for town gas-fitting will not lose their underground mains. The Leader of the entitlements. Opposition wanted to know what we have done for underground mains safety following There has always been a need for the the unfortunate 1971 explosion in George Minister to be able to exercise such rights Street. It is sad indeed when he does not to ensure progress of a franchise after it follow the legislation. I commend for his has been established and the proposed amend­ reading the 1971 and the 1974 Gas Act ments give the Minister that power. This Amendment Acts. Additionally, I refer is to ensure that the rights of the Govern­ him to the Gas Act reports for sections deal­ ment and benefit to the public are not lost ing with underground mains, namely- as the life of a franchise extends in time. 1971-Page 4--Five paragraphs. At present the Act provides protection 1972-Page 3-Five paragraphs. to 30 June 1976 to a franchise holder from LP. gas marketers, who could create detri­ 1973-Page 3-Two paragraphs. mental effects on the holder and on the 1974--Page 4-Two paragraphs. community. The amendment eliminates 1975-Page 3-0ne paragraph. reference to the period of time for protection The Leader of the Opposition spoke speci­ and leaves this in the hands of the Minister. f'cally about records. He has had time to The Act made provision for regulating the study the Bill, and if he has read it he will method a gas supplier uses for arriving at note clause 22 (d)-the broadening of the the price charged for gas supplied and the at!thority to regulate for the keeping of amendments tighten the procedure by pre­ records. With the strengthening by the scribing that certain information requested amendment of our authorities, there will be by the Chief Gas Examiner in this regard more than we can do if it proves necessary. must be supplied within 21 days. For failure to comply with, or for contravention I shall now move to the main points of of, this section, a gas supplier is liable to the Bill. Changes have been made to the a penalty of $1,000 and this has been titles of Parts IV and VII to make them increased to $250 per day for each day the more in keeping with the requirements of supplier fails to comply. those parts of the Act. The present Act provides for appeal to Several amendments are proposed to the the Industrial Court against a price-fixing definition clause and I draw attention to the order made by the gas referee for gas sup­ major points. The modern term "flammable" plied and the amendments are aimed at replaces "inflammable", and "Chief Gas reducing or eliminating unnecessary or vexa­ Examiner" is defined. "Cylinder" is deleted tious appeals to such court. The court has as this will be covered by regulation and been given the right to determine whether Standards Association codes. "Fittings" is pertinent information upon which its deter­ made now to cover installation work, and mination is based should have been presented '·franchise" has been extended to take into at an earlier stage and, if so, the gas supplier consideration the existence of LP. gas fran­ shall not be entitled to be awarded costs chises. "Hydrogen gas and hydrocarbon of his appeal and his costs and any awarded gases" have been included for ease of under­ against him shall be deducted from the next standing as they are flammable gases and dividend declared. have always been subject to the Act. The Bill makes provision for the adoption of standard rules, codes, etc., such as those Further to my remarks concerning "fit­ of the Standards Association of Australia, tings", the Bill enables gas examiners to pro­ the British Standards Institution and similar tect the public from unsatisfactory or unsafe competent bodies, and provides for approval work before gas is connected, and identifies to be the responsibility of the Chief Gas the person in charge to whom a safety direc­ Examiner. Provision has been made to tion is to be given, and the amendment require that work shall be carried out only strengthens the present provision set out in by an installer licensed under the Gas Act. the regulations concerning the production of books, records, etc., which are essential for New sections are introduced tightening the efficient administration of the Act. safety requirements in relation to any opera­ tion concerning the supply, transportation, Serious accidents must be investigated handling, consumption, etc. of gas, and without interference, and the amendments ensuring that a gas supplier also accepts permit this to be done. safety responsibility by withholding the 3728 Gas Act Amendment Bill [14 APRIL 1976] Ministerial Statement supply of gas to a defective installation or by Clauses 10 to 23, both inclusive, and cutting off the supply to a dangerous instal­ schedule, as read, agreed to. lation. The inspection access aspect of the Bill reported, with an amendment. supply of gas to rented or strata-title build­ ings has also been covered. The amendments increase the time from THIRD READING six to 12 months in which to take pro­ Bill, on motion of Mr. Camm, by leave, ceedings following a breach of the Act and read a third time. the court has been given power to have any The House adjourned at 1.52 a.m. contravention remedied. (Wednesday). Finally, the Bill provides for a more definite backing of the power to make regula­ tions in relation to licensing, safety, inspec­ tions, and the keeping of records, with some degree of flexibility. Provision has been made to regulate for the issue of certificates covering safety, work carried out or work inspected. This is for the benefit of the consumer or purchaser of articles, such as caravans, marine craft, etc., which carry gas-fitting. Further, power has been given to regulate to control the terms of security deposits required to be lodged by a con­ sumer, and for the general discretionary powers of the Chief Gas Examiner to con­ tinue. Penalties have been upgraded to bring them into line with today's money values. I feel I have covered in detail the major points of the proposed amendments and I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. MARGINSON (Wolston) (1.48 a.m.): At the introductory stage a number of Opposition members made reference to cer­ tain aspects of the Bill, including the pro­ posed amendments. Reference was also made to the resources of natural gas in South-east Queensland. On behalf of the Opposition I thank the Minister for explaining to us tonight what the position is in relation to the exploration for natural gas. We have no objection to the Bill and go along with it. Motion (Mr. Camm) agreed to.

COMMITTEE (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) Clauses 1 to 8, both inclusive, as read, agreed to. Clause 9-Amendment of s. 28; Duty of gas supplier to supply consumers- Hon. R. E. CAMM (Whitsunday-Minister for Mines and Energy): I move the following amendment:- "On page 4, after line 45, insert the following paragraph- '(c) inserting at the end of the third paragraph the words "and· the cost of so much of any main in excess of a distance of 20 metres laid for the pur­ pose of such supply".' " Amendment agreed to. Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.