Wednesday Volume 530 6 July 2011 No. 183

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 6 July 2011

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However, I would put out a public appeal to all those House of Commons who are considering expressing their views over the next few days. They, too, should show restraint. I remind Wednesday 6 July 2011 them that the rule of law will prevail, and that this week, significant prosecutions have resulted from charges The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock against those who broke the law a year ago.

PRAYERS Jake Berry: Does my right hon. Friend agree that close co-operation between the PSNI, the Garda, and Ministers here, in Belfast and in Dublin, is essential in R PEAKER in the Chair [M S ] combating the ongoing terrorist threat? Will he join me in congratulating the Garda on its recent discovery of Oral Answers to Questions an arms cache and arrests in County Louth? Mr Paterson: It is almost impossible to stress how closely we are now working. Last week, I met Eamon NORTHERN IRELAND Gilmore, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, and I had several discussions in the last week The Secretary of State was asked— with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence. I also recently saw the Garda commissioner. The Garda Security Situation is to be wholly congratulated on its recent raid at Hackballscross in County Louth, where a significant 1. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): What recent amount of lethal matériel was apprehended. I am delighted assessment he has made of the threat to security in to confirm that the co-operation with the PSNI gets Northern Ireland posed by residual terrorist groups. better from month to month. [63167] Karl McCartney: Does my right hon. Friend agree 6. Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): What that at a time of such pressure on the public finances, recent assessment he has made of the threat to security the exceptional deal to the give the PSNI an extra in Northern Ireland posed by residual terrorist groups. £200 million over the next four years is a clear demonstration [63173] that this Government will always stand by Northern 7. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): What recent Ireland? assessment he has made of the security situation in Mr Paterson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement. giving me the chance to remind the House that we [63174] endorsed £50 million last year and a further unprecedented 8. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): What £200 million over the next four years. We are absolutely recent assessment he has made of the threat to security determined to bear down on the current threat, and I in Northern Ireland posed by residual terrorist groups. am delighted that Matt Baggot, the Chief Constable, to [63175] whom I spoke this morning, confirmed that we “have the resources, the resilience and…the commitment” The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen to meet that threat. Paterson): With your permission, Mr Speaker, I believe that the House will want to pay tribute to Sir Oliver Glyn Davies: All of us in the House are concerned Napier, whose funeral was held yesterday. He was a about the recent violence in east Belfast and acknowledge founding father and leader of the Alliance party, and a the challenges facing the PSNI. Does my right hon. member of the power-sharing Executive in 1974. He led Friend agree that there is a very significant role for the the way towards inclusive politics, and was widely respected Northern Ireland Executive in tackling the underlying across the entire community. He will be much missed. causes that fuel that violence? The threat level in Northern Ireland remains at severe. Despite the overwhelming community rejection of violence, Mr Paterson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and the terrorist groups continue to pose an indiscriminate constituency neighbour for his question. The problem threat to the safety of police officers and the general cannot be contained by security activity alone, however public, who want their lives to be free of fear, disruption well co-ordinated and well funded by the PSNI and the and intimidation. Garda. Ultimately, this must be sorted out on the ground, by local politicians working with local people. Graham Evans: The violent scenes that we have witnessed That was confirmed in the Independent Monitoring in part of east Belfast in recent days are obviously a Commission report that said: matter of great concern. Will my right hon. Friend join “The main responsibility for dealing with these challenges rests me in sending our support and gratitude to the Police with the Assembly, the Executive and local politicians, working in Service of Northern Ireland for its restraint, courage conjunction with community leaders, churches, the law enforcement and success in combating that disorder as well as the and other public institutions, and ultimately, with the…whole continuing terrorist threat in Northern Ireland? community”. Mr Paterson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): In 2004, question and I wholly endorse his comments. I happily Jane Kennedy, the then Northern Ireland Office Minister, put on record the Government’s deep appreciation of told the House that an inventory of all decommissioned the restraint and skill with which the PSNI handled the weapons would be published when the Independent recent disturbances. International Commission on Decommissioning had 1493 Oral Answers6 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 1494 completed its work. The IICD stood down on Monday, Chris Evans: I am sure that the Minister will have but no inventory was published. Will the Secretary of seen that 59,500 people are signed on the dole in Northern State tell the House why that pledge was not honoured, Ireland. Whenever anyone losses their job, it is a tragedy and does he accept that that will affect public confidence? for their family and causes hurt and pain. What are the Government going to do about it? Mr Paterson: The IICD made it clear why it did not publish an inventory. We would like to be in the Mr Swire: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s interest in position to publish this data, as the then Member Northern Ireland, and I hope that it will continue. I for Liverpool, Wavertree, Jane Kennedy, was back in hope also that he will join me in celebrating the jobs 2003-04, but the success of the IICD has been its that the service sector in Northern Ireland has attracted. independence, and it is for it to decide—it is entirely The New York stock exchange has attracted 400 new within its remit—where it puts this information. It is jobs; Citigroup financial services will attract 500 jobs now in the hands of the US Secretary of State and over the next five years; and the law firm Allen and cannot be divulged without the prior agreement of the Overy has attracted 300 jobs in Belfast. To answer his Irish and British Governments. question directly, I would say that Northern Ireland is a great place for the service industries. It is open and we Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I want more investment, and I hope that he and his party acknowledge the information that the Secretary of State will join us in making that happen. has just given us about dissident activity, the report published by the Independent Monitoring Commission Mr Shaun Woodward (St Helens South and Whiston) last Monday and the fact that the level of dissident (Lab): Well that all sounds very good, but in the past activity is now higher than when it published its first 12 months, the Northern Ireland claimant count has report in 2004. The report stated that loyalist groups increased by 7%. That is the biggest increase in the UK were finding it difficult to contemplate going out of and 21 times the national average. The Minister will business. In that context, does he agree that whatever we know that the Northern Bank/Oxford Economics survey do to bring the paramilitary activity to a peaceful has now dramatically downgraded economic growth conclusion, it will not be achieved by throwing money forecasts in Northern Ireland to 1.1% from a previous at gang leaders, as has been suggested in east Belfast forecast of 1.9%. The Northern Ireland economy needs over the past few weeks? help now. What is the Minister going to do?

Mr Paterson: I just quoted from the IMC report Mr Swire: It is regrettable that the Secretary of State showing that these problems will not be resolved by one is talking Northern Ireland down—[Interruption.] The simple solution. They have to be resolved on the ground independent Office for Budget Responsibility’s recent by working with local people at the closest level. That updated fiscal and economic forecasts show that the means down to community groups and local politicians. Government’s plans will deliver sustainable growth in It is not for us to lay down the law from Westminster. each of the next five years with employment rising by That is now in local hands. 1.1 million by 2015 across the UK and the deficit falling. That of course includes Northern Ireland. The Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): Will the unemployment rate for Northern Ireland was down by Secretary of State give us some guidance on the extent 0.8% over the quarter and the number of unemployed to which the police and his office are getting co-operation people in Northern Ireland was estimated at 61,000—down from all communities in identifying those responsible 6,000 over the quarter. It is because of the Government’s for the ongoing terrorist activities on both sides of the determination to tackle the deficit and the legacy we divide? inherited from a Government of which the right hon. Gentleman was part that these figures are good.

Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the Chairman of the Mr Woodward: Regrettably, the only thing that is going Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. The police are down is an economic forecast from 1.9% to 1.1%. conducting a review and a serious investigation into the Undoubtedly the Minister will update his brief in due disturbances last week, and it would be wrong to pre-empt course. The Secretary of State proposes a change in what they discover. However, once we have the information corporation tax rates to help in the long term. I seek from the police, we will make further decisions. clarification. We know that the immediate impact of the cut in the block grant will be the loss of tens of Government Spending thousands of jobs in the public sector, especially in education. However, if the policy in the medium term 2. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): What creates jobs, it follows that there will be additional assessment he has made of the effects on the service revenue from income tax and a decrease in welfare sector in Northern Ireland of reductions in payments. He wants the public sector, especially in Government spending. [63168] education, to take the pain now, but in the future, if those benefits flow from increases in jobs and tax revenues, The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office will the Treasury keep the money or will it go to the (Mr Hugo Swire): Tackling the deficit remains the people of Northern Ireland? Government’s biggest priority, and Northern Ireland has its part to play in achieving that outcome. My right Mr Swire: The right hon. Gentleman is right to raise hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are working the issue of corporation tax. There has been widespread closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to boost consultation on the issue, and all the political parties in private sector growth and investment and to help rebalance Northern Ireland support devolving the power to Northern the economy. Ireland. We believe that it will bring growth and jobs; 1495 Oral Answers6 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 1496 equally, we believe that it is important to rebalance Tourism (VAT) Northern Ireland’s economy, regardless of the situation that we inherited. Like me, the right hon. Gentleman 4. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): What recent represents an English constituency, and he will be aware representations he has received on the rate of VAT that Northern Ireland receives about 25% more in spend applied to tourism activities in Northern Ireland. per head of the population than England. It is therefore [63170] important that we rebalance Northern Ireland’s economy and allow it to grow. The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Fuel Smuggling Swire): Northern Ireland has enormous attractions for tourists and we strongly support efforts to encourage them to visit. The hon. Member for South Down 3. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): What recent (Ms Ritchie) raised the issue of VAT rates at a recent assessment he has made of the extent of petrol and meeting with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of diesel smuggling from the Republic of Ireland into State, but these matters are not our direct responsibility. Northern Ireland. [63169]

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Mark Durkan: The Minister of State should be Swire): Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs leads aware that as of last week, VAT in the tourism sector the work to crack down on fuel smuggling and fraud, in the south of Ireland has been reduced to 9% for working closely with the Irish authorities. The 18 months. Similar steps have been taken in France and Organised Crime Task Force, which is chaired by the Germany. Will he and the Secretary of State use their Northern Ireland Justice Minister, estimated in its 2011 standing with their colleagues in the Treasury to commend threat assessment that there is an annual tax loss of a sectorally targeted VAT cut for tourism throughout £200 million from fuel fraud and legitimate cross-border the UK? fuel shopping. Mr Swire: The hon. Gentleman knows that the EU Robert Halfon: Estimates suggest that the Government average for VAT is 20.8%, whereas VAT in the UK is actually lose between £280 million to £300 million a 20%. Germany’s lower rate is simply a mechanism to year to fuel smuggling and laundering in Northern redistribute money from the centre to the Länder, as Ireland. That pushes up fuel taxes for everyone, which is Germany has many local tourist—or “bed”—taxes. We deeply unfair. Does my right hon. Friend agree that would all like lower taxation and we would all like the extending rural fuel pilots to the new economic zones deficit to be addressed, which is what we are seeking to would cut smuggling and save the taxpayer an absolute do, but this is not just about the rates of VAT. London fortune? hotels are doing better than they have done for some time, there are more tourist visitors to Northern Ireland Mr Swire: I agree that we need to save the taxpayer an than there have been for some time and the hon. absolute fortune, and I have had discussions about this Gentleman’s city of Londonderry will be city of culture issue with both the Northern Ireland Justice Minister in 2013. We need to offer people value for money and and the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury. I recently good hospitality—that I am sure we can do—and the brought to the attention of the Exchequer Secretary issue of VAT will then become secondary. and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury—who is here with us today—the comments of the hon. Member Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): On future taxation for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), who has some ideas policy, will the Secretary of State tell us whether the about various companies that can help with the traceability electricity White Paper that is soon to be published will of fuel. However, I would also point out to my hon. contain proposals to address the fact that Northern Friend that the “Cross-Border Organised Crime Assessment Ireland has a single electricity market, linked with the 2010” said: Republic of Ireland? Will it address the implications of “Changes in exchange and duty rates have made this…less those arrangements for providers and users of energy in profitable over the past few years than it would have been previously.” Northern Ireland, in that they could influence the market disproportionately? David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): We have just heard about the amount of money that Her Majesty’s Mr Swire: The hon. Gentleman is very cunning to Government are losing in revenue to fuel smuggling have got that question in. The Treasury will have heard and laundering. The Minister will be aware of recent his remarks, and I shall make certain that the relevant findings of large amounts of fuel on the border. Can he Treasury Minister gets back to him to address those please update us on the fuel duty escalator and the pertinent points. possible introduction of a pilot scheme in Northern Ireland? Disturbances (Belfast)

Mr Swire: I think that I have just answered that 5. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): What question, which was not dissimilar to that asked by my assessment he has made of the role of dissident hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). republicans in recent disturbances in the Short Strand In direct answer to the point about co-operation across area of Belfast; and if he will make a statement. the border, relations are extremely good, as is true for [63171] all our relations with the Republic of Ireland, not least with the Garda. We are working in close co-operation, The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen hence the success of the Organised Crime Task Force Paterson): The Government utterly condemn all those and HMRC in driving down fuel smuggling. involved in the localised violence in part of east Belfast 1497 Oral Answers6 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 1498 a fortnight ago. It would be unwise for me to comment that inventory, we have to take that advice seriously, as on the role played by specific groups while the police do the Irish Government. That is why the inventory has investigation is ongoing, but I know that the Police been placed with the American Secretary of State, Service of Northern Ireland is determined to bring where it will rest. No one will see it until the British and those responsible to justice. Irish Governments together decide that the time is appropriate. Mrs Glindon: Will the Minister accept that the unanimous condemnation by all the parties in Stormont shows that Public Expenditure Reductions dissidents of all traditions might have the power to damage the peace process but not to derail it? 9. Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): What Mr Paterson: I am happy to concur wholeheartedly assessment he has made of the effect on economic with the hon. Lady’s comment. Northern Ireland has growth in Northern Ireland of reductions in public moved on by a huge distance, and everyone can now expenditure. [63176] express their legitimate political aims and pursue them by democratic means. There is absolutely no place for The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo political violence in Northern Ireland today. Swire): As I said earlier to the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), tackling the deficit has to be the Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): On behalf of Government’s biggest priority, and Northern Ireland the whole House, may I congratulate the Minister of must play its part. My right hon. Friend the Secretary State on his upgrading of my right hon. Friend the of State and I are working with Northern Ireland Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Mr Woodward) Ministers to attract growth and investment and to help to his new role of Secretary of State for Northern rebalance the economy. Ireland? I am not entirely sure whether that was a prediction, but it is certainly one that we would support. Toby Perkins: Northern Bank’s quarterly economic Further to the question from my hon. Friend the Member forecast states that Northern Ireland’s construction sector for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon), the Secretary of has hit a new low and is facing its fourth year of decline. State will be aware that even below the most placid It has already suffered some of the worst job losses surface, dark cold undercurrents flow, and that we have anywhere in the country. Do the 10,000 people who to address the issue of the sectarian legacy. What is he could now lose their jobs, on top of those who have doing to support groups such as Co-operation Ireland already done so, have any cause for optimism, given the and other peace-builders? complacency that the Minister showed in his earlier answer? Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the shadow Minister, who is on perky form this morning. I have regular Mr Swire: I do not think that I showed complacency meetings with the chairman of Co-operation Ireland; I in my earlier answer. We are fully aware of the effect of am actually seeing him again today. However, dealing the recession on the construction industry not only in with community groups is very much in local hands. I Northern Ireland but in the whole of the United have had recent discussions with the First Minister and Kingdom. It has had a real effect in many of the the Deputy First Minister, and I am seeing both of border areas where people used to go down to the them again tomorrow. This is very much a local issue to building sites of Dublin and earn their money that be sorted out on the ground according to local way. That is a serious issue for all kinds of reasons. The circumstances. [Interruption.] fact that we came to the aid of the Republic of Ireland has allowed us to have far greater involvement in its Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many private investment decisions affecting Northern Ireland, not conversations taking place in the Chamber. We need to least those of the banks, as well as in other issues of be able to hear the Secretary of State. mutual interest. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Given the ease with which guns were produced at the Short Strand Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): Does interface, does the Secretary of State understand the the Minister agree that air passenger duty is helping to annoyance and anger at the fact that the inventory of strangle economic recovery in Northern Ireland? Does the weapons destroyed by the Independent International he have any plans to persuade the Treasury to make Commission on Decommissioning was not made changes to it? known? Does he agree that the people of Northern Ireland have a right to know the full extent of the Mr Swire: As the hon. Gentleman knows, there has destruction of weaponry that has taken place? The been a consultation process on air passenger duty, Conservatives and Labour have agreed on that, and which is continuing, and we have discussed the issue the inventory has also been lodged in Washington. with the Finance Minister at Stormont. These are issues that we take very seriously, not least in respect of what I Mr Paterson: I am fully aware of the concerns behind describe as the economic umbilical cord—the link to the hon. Gentleman’s question, but we have to take New York by Continental airlines. We are keen to see the advice of those very experienced independent that continue. A number of companies, including the professionals, who have pulled off an extraordinary New York stock exchange, came to invest in Northern task. I pay tribute to General de Chastelain and his Ireland because of that air route. As I say, we are taking colleagues for what they did, and if it is their professional this extremely seriously and we are batting for Northern opinion today that it would not be helpful to publish Ireland. 1499 Oral Answers6 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 1500

Human Trafficking The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson): Northern Ireland is an excellent place to do 10. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What business and enjoys world-class aerospace, engineering recent discussions he has had with the First Minister and health technology companies, but the Northern on the level of cross-border human trafficking to and Ireland economy is still too over-reliant on the public from Northern Ireland. [63177] sector, so we are working together with the Northern Ireland Executive to help rebalance it and to boost The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo private sector growth. Swire): Data on the exact level of cross-border trafficking Mr Holloway: Will my right hon. Friend ensure that is not available, but there is clearly a cross-border element internal squabbles in the Assembly do not undermine in many cases. I spoke yesterday to the Northern Ireland the consultation? justice Minister and I know that he has been working closely with authorities in the Republic of Ireland to Mr Paterson: I am delighted to report that the tackle this despicable crime. consultation, which ends on Friday, has received the overwhelming endorsement of all five political parties. Mr Bone: I thank the Minister for his response. The leaders in the Executive came to Kelvatek for the People are being trafficked across the border with bogus launch of that very successful consultation. My right papers. Unfortunately, they are being trafficked from hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of this country into the Republic of Ireland. The Republic the Exchequer have been to Northern Ireland to see of Ireland is discovering trafficked people whose papers what is happening for themselves—as has my hon. are so obviously bogus that they should never have been Friend the Exchequer Secretary, who is going again admitted to the United Kingdom in the first place. This tomorrow—and we will respond in the autumn. is an issue that we really need to look at. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Does the Secretary Mr Swire: My hon. Friend is, of course, absolutely of State agree that if the Northern Ireland economy is right. The Minister for Immigration is working closely to be helped through the devolution of corporation tax, with his counterparts in the Irish Republic to ensure that must come at a fair, reasonable and acceptable that we jointly strengthen our external borders against price rather than a price that is detrimental to economic threats such as human trafficking gangs. I would like growth? briefly to pay tribute, if I may, to my hon. Friend’s work on the all-party group and, indeed, to that of our Mr Paterson: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the former colleague, Anthony Steen and the Human Treasury document makes it clear that every 2.5% reduction Trafficking Foundation, which I hope to accompany to in corporation tax requires a £60 million to £90 million Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend has much to add to reduction in the block grant. That constitutes 0.5% of the debate. [Interruption.] the block grant, which many economists and businesses consider to be a very modest investment. Several hon. Members rose—

Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear Mr Gregory PRIME MINISTER Campbell. The Prime Minister was asked— Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Thank you, Mr Speaker. The ease with which cross-border Engagements trafficking between Northern Ireland and the Republic can occur is quite obvious and apparent to everyone. Q1. [63869] Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): Will the Minister ensure that liaison with the Republic If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday of Ireland’s authorities is stepped up to ensure that 6July. those who are being trafficked can be helped, given the problems that they are facing? The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in paying Mr Swire: We all want to hear the hon. Gentleman—I tribute to Highlander Scott McLaren of The Highlanders, hope others heard him better than I did. The little that I 4th Battalion, The Royal Regiment of Scotland. This heard was about cross-border co-operation. I can assure week I witnessed at first hand the sacrifice of our him that we have had some recent successes in Northern soldiers. I pay tribute to the bravery and dedication of Ireland, as he will have seen from the newspapers. We this particular soldier, who was lost in such tragic work extremely closely with the authorities in the Republic. circumstances. Our thoughts will rightly be with his This is an issue that affects us all. It is a despicable family and his friends at this very sad time, but we pay thing, and I draw the attention of all Members to the tribute to him and all those like him who serve our Joseph Rowntree Foundation’s report “Forced labour country so magnificently in Afghanistan and elsewhere. in Northern Ireland”, which has recently come out and This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues bears reading. and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today. Economy Mr Campbell: I echo the sentiments that the Prime 11. Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): What Minister has expressed. As a father whose son is serving recent assessment he has made of the Northern Ireland in the Royal Marines and doing his duty in Afghanistan, economy. [63178] I can tell the House that those in my position dread the 1501 Oral Answers6 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 1502 knock on the door saying that their son has been lost in into. What has taken place is absolutely disgusting, and action. Our sympathies obviously go to Scott’s father, I think everyone in this House, and indeed this country, mother and family at this time. will be revolted by what they have heard and seen on Is it right that yesterday we gave £10 billion to the their television screens. bail-out of the banks in Greece, that we gave £7 billion Let me make a couple of points. First—people need to the bail-out in Ireland, and that we—the British to know this—a major police investigation is under way. taxpayers—give £100 billion a year to the banks in this It is one of the biggest police investigations currently country for insurance and other purposes? Why does under way in our country, and crucially—I hope Opposition the Prime Minister not get on his bike, go down to see Members will listen to this—it does not involve police his friends in the City, and sack a few spivs and speculators officers who were involved in the original investigation and bankers— that so clearly did not get to the truth. It is important that we have inquiries: inquiries that are public; inquiries Mr Speaker: Order. We are grateful to the hon. that are independent; and inquiries that have public Gentleman. We have got the gist. confidence. It seems to me that there are two vital issues that we The Prime Minister: Let me say first that it is this need to look into. The first is the original police inquiry Government who have imposed a levy on the banks so and why that did not get to the bottom of what has that they pay more every year than they paid in bankers’ happened, and the second is the behaviour of individual bonus tax under the last Government. As for Greece, I people and individual media organisations and, as the kept us out of a European bail-out, and as for Ireland, right hon. Gentleman says, a wider look into media its economy is so close and so integrated with ours that practices and ethics in this country. Clearly, as he says, it is right for us to give it support. That, I think, is the we cannot start that sort of inquiry immediately because right approach, but this Government are being tough in we must not jeopardise the police investigation, but it ensuring that the banks pay their fair share. may be possible to start some of that work earlier. I am very happy to discuss this with him, with other party Q2. [63870] Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) leaders, and with the Attorney-General and the Cabinet (Con): Severe droughts, conflicts and food prices have Secretary, to make sure that we get this right and combined viciously in the horn of Africa, creating lessons are learned from what has become a disgraceful desperate hunger and threatening the lives of millions. episode. Given that aid agencies are short of funds, what are the Government doing to help? Edward Miliband: Let me say to the Prime Minister that I am encouraged that he does now recognise the The Prime Minister: As ever, the Department for need for a full public inquiry into what happened. He is International Development is being extremely effective. right to say that it can be fully completed only after the It is working very quickly to try to help in this appalling police investigation has taken its course, but, as he also crisis, in which 10 million people face the threat of said, that may take some years. It is possible, as I think starvation. That demonstrates once again that we are he implied, for the Prime Minister to start the process right to maintain and increase our spending in this area, now, so may I make some suggestions in that context? difficult as the arguments sometimes are. Our difficulties He should immediately appoint a senior figure, potentially here and elsewhere in Europe are nothing in comparison a judge, to lead this inquiry, make it clear that it will with what is being experienced by people who face have the power to call witnesses under oath, and establish starvation and death unless we help them. clear terms of reference covering a number of key issues: the culture and practices of the industry; the Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): May I nature of regulation, which is absolutely crucial; and join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Highlander the relationship between the police and the media. I Scott McLaren of The Highlanders, 4th Battalion, The wonder whether he can respond on those points. Royal Regiment of Scotland? He was a young man who was serving our country, and died in the most horrific The Prime Minister: I want to respond positively, and circumstances. I am sure the thoughts of the whole let me do so. First, on the two issues I mentioned—the House are with his family and friends. conduct of the earlier police inquiry and the broader The whole country has been appalled by the disclosures lessons about ethics in the media—I do not think it is about phone hacking: the 7/7 victims, the parents of possible to start any form of investigation into the Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, and, of course, the former until the police investigation is completed, because phone of Milly Dowler. That anyone could hack into I think there would be a danger of jeopardising the her phone, listen to her family’s frantic messages and current police inquiry. Responding positively to what delete them, giving false hope to the parents, is immoral the right hon. Gentleman said, I do think it may be and a disgrace. Given the gravity of what has occurred, possible to make a start on other elements, and, as I will the Prime Minister support the calls for a full, have said, I do not want us to rush this decision; I want independent public inquiry to take place as soon as us to get it right, having discussed it with other party practical into the culture and practices of British leaders, the Attorney-General and the Cabinet Secretary. newspapers? All too often, these sorts of inquiries can be set up too quickly without thinking through what actually needs The Prime Minister: Let me be very clear: yes, we do to be done. need to have an inquiry—possibly inquiries—into what has happened. We are no longer talking about politicians Edward Miliband: I think the Prime Minister is implying and celebrities; we are talking about murder victims— that this can start moving now, and I think it is very potentially terrorist victims—having their phones hacked important that it does so; just because we cannot do 1503 Oral Answers6 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 1504 everything does not mean we cannot do anything. It is the proper way—they have total independence and must very important that we act. A year ago to the day, the do that. The other is an issue about plurality and Prime Minister appointed the Gibson inquiry to look competition, where we have to act under the law. Those into the treatment of detainees by the intelligence services, are the words he used yesterday and, in just 24 hours, he with criminal cases still pending. has done a U-turn in order to try to look good in the Let me ask the Prime Minister about what happens in Commons. the meantime, pending this public inquiry. We have consistently said that the BSkyB bid should be referred Edward Miliband: This is not the time for technicalities to the Competition Commission and not dealt with in or low blows. We have said consistently, throughout this the way the Culture Secretary has done. The Prime process, that this bid should be referred to the Competition Minister must realise that the public will react with Commission—that is the right way forward. The Prime disbelief if next week the decision is taken to go ahead Minister, instead of engaging in technicalities, should with this deal at a time when News International is speak for the country on this issue, because this is what subject to a major criminal investigation and we do not people want him to do. I hope that he will go off from yet know who charges will be laid against. Does the this Question Time and think again, because it is in the Prime Minister agree that the BSkyB bid should now be interests of the media industry and the British public referred to the Competition Commission, to provide that this is properly referred to the Competition Commission the breathing space that is required? in the way that all other bids are dealt with. What we also know, as well as that we need a public The Prime Minister: First, let me answer the right inquiry and that we need the BSkyB bid referred to the hon. Gentleman’s point about Gibson, because this is a Competition Commission, is that these were not the good and fair point. We established the Gibson inquiry actions of a rogue individual or a rogue reporter, but but it has not been able to make much progress until part of a wider, systematic pattern of abuses. The public criminal proceedings have been brought to an end. see a major news organisation in this country where no There is a good reason for this; clearly you do not want one appears prepared to take responsibility for what to jeopardise a police operation, and you do so if you happens. Nobody is denying that Milly Dowler’s phone start questioning witnesses through a public inquiry was hacked and nobody is denying that it happened on process at the same time as they are being questioned the watch of the current chief executive of News through a police process. That is the reason for doing International, who was editor of the newspaper at the this, but, believe me, I want us to get on with this issue, time. Will the Prime Minister join me—if he believes in and the faster we can set up other elements of an people taking responsibility—in saying that she should inquiry, the happier I will be. take responsibility and consider her position? On the issue of BSkyB, what we have done is follow, absolutely to the letter, the correct legal processes. That is what the Government have to do. My right hon. The Prime Minister: First, let me deal with the issue Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, of technicalities. I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman Media and Sport has a quasi-judicial role and he has to that when you are dealing with the law, you have to look follow that. I note that the leader of the Labour party at the technicalities because there is something called said yesterday that the issue of competition and plurality due process that you have to follow. That is necessary is “a separate issue” from the very important issue we for any Government and I am sure that he understands are discussing today. What I would say is that these that. As for News International, everyone at News processes must be followed properly, including by Ofcom, International must ask themselves some pretty searching and it is Ofcom that has the duty to make a questions and everyone at News International is subject recommendation about a “fit and proper person”. Those to one of the largest police investigations under way in are the right processes; this Government will behave in this country. I think that we should let the police do a proper way. their work. They must follow the evidence wherever it leads and if they find people guilty of wrongdoing, they Edward Miliband: I am afraid that that answer was should have no hesitation in ensuring that they are out of touch with millions of people up and down this prosecuted. country. The public will not accept the idea that, with this scandal engulfing the News of the World and News Edward Miliband: I do not know from that answer International, the Government should, in the coming whether the Prime Minister says that the chief executive days be making a decision outside the normal processes, of News International should stand down or not. I am for them to take control of one of the biggest media clear: she should take responsibility and stand down. organisations in the country. I know that this is difficult These events show a systematic set of abuses that for the Prime Minister, but I strongly urge him to think demonstrates the use of power without responsibility in again and send this decision to the proper authorities—the our country and it is in the interests of our democracy Competition Commission. As I say, this would provide and the public that such issues are sorted out. With the breathing space for legitimacy and for the proper decisions biggest press scandal in modern times getting worse by to be made. the day, I am afraid the Prime Minister has not shown the necessary leadership today. He has not shown the The Prime Minister: I would say to the right hon. necessary leadership on BSkyB or on News International. Gentleman that the decision making has been through Is it not the case that if the public are to have confidence the proper processes, that it is right that the Government in him, he must do the thing that is most difficult and act legally in every way and that that is what they have accept that he made a catastrophic judgment in bringing done. One of these is an issue about morality and ethics, Andy Coulson into the heart of his Downing street and a police investigation that needs to be carried out in machine? [Interruption.] 1505 Oral Answers6 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 1506

The Prime Minister: What people—[Interruption.] Q6. [63874] Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): The Prime Minister will be aware of the news Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the this morning that Portugal’s debt has been downgraded Prime Minister, but the Prime Minister should not have to junk status. Does he not agree that it is a warning to shout to be heard and neither, for that matter, should to every Member of this House that we cannot put the Leader of the Opposition. It is thoroughly disorderly off difficult decisions and that the only plan B is and the Prime Minister will now be heard. bankruptcy?

The Prime Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I take The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right: full responsibility for everyone I employ and everyone I plan B stands for bankruptcy. We can see what happens appoint and I take responsibility for everything my if Governments do not get a grip of their debt and their Government do. What this Government are doing is deficit. That is what this Government are doing, but the making sure—the public and I feel appalled by what has Labour party has learnt nothing. happened, and the fact that murder victims and terrorist victims have had their phones hacked is quite disgraceful. Q7. [63875] Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) That is why it is important that there is a full police (Lab): Does the Prime Minister agree that the investigation with all the powers the police need. That is maximum sentence for the offence of dangerous why it is important that we have those inquiries to get to driving does not properly reflect the potential harm the bottom of what went wrong and the lessons that caused to victims, some of whom are left paralysed and need to be learned. That is why we also need to inquire brain-damaged? Will he support me and Labour Front as to how we can improve the ethics and morals of the Benchers in moves to increase the maximum sentence press in this country and ensure that they improve for to seven years? the future. That is what needs to be done, that is what the Government are doing and we do not need to take The Prime Minister: I know that the hon. Gentleman lectures from the right hon. Gentleman about it. speaks with great personal knowledge about this not just because of a constituency case that he wrote to me about but because of his work as a barrister before he Q3. [63871] Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): came to this place. I do believe there is a problem when Year 9 pupils at Limehurst high school in my there is a high sentence, rightly, for causing death by constituency have joined hundreds of other pupils to dangerous driving, but only this two-year sentence in work on the “Send my Sister to School” campaign. Will cases such as the one he brought to my attention in the Prime Minister add his support to this cause and which someone was damaged permanently for life, and should not this campaign remind us that good yet the maximum sentence was two years. In our Sentencing education, here or overseas, transforms children’s lives (Reform) Bill we are looking at this issue and we hope and their life chances? to make some progress.

The Prime Minister: I am delighted to welcome the David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): campaign that my hon. Friend mentions and her personal Does the Prime Minister agree with me that the alleged support for it. The fact is that across our world 39 million bail-out mentioned by the Opposition of £10 billion is girls are out of school and even if they are in school, the not that and that if we are not in the IMF we will not be gender gaps we still see are appalling. We in the UK, a global player? Does he also agree that the Opposition through our aid budget, are securing schooling for 11 need reminding that in the 1970s the IMF bailed out million children by 2015. That is more than we educate their Government? in the UK, but we will be able to do it at 2.5% of the cost. This is a good investment for Britain and for Mr Speaker: I know that the Prime Minister will British taxpayers that will ensure that we reduce inequality want to deal with the first part of the question, but not in our world. the second part because it was disorderly.

Q4. [63872] Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/ The Prime Minister: I absolutely agree with what my Co-op): Will the Prime Minister explain whether he hon. Friend said. It was remarkable yesterday that the thinks that the cost of his NHS reforms, which are set Labour party put itself in the position of opposing our to rise even further—as we now know thanks to the involvement in the IMF. Britain is a serious global revelation that a new super-quango will be created in economy and we should take responsibility for serious the NHS—might be partly responsible for the funding global issues, including through the IMF. squeeze affecting health services in Harrow? That has put at particular risk services at the popular Alexandra Q8. [63877] David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): avenue polyclinic in my constituency. Does the Prime Minister agree that details of all the weapons and explosives decommissioned in Northern The Prime Minister: What we have seen since this Ireland should be made public as promised? Will he Government have taken office is more than 2,000 more agree to have negotiations with the Irish Government doctors but 4,000 fewer managers. We are cutting to move forward to the Americans to see that that bureaucracy by a third—[Interruption.] I know they do happens? not like to hear it, but if we had followed their plans and cut NHS spending, the number of doctors, nurses and The Prime Minister: The point is that the Independent operations would be going down. Just this morning, we International Commission on Decommissioning did have seen the figures for the number of diagnostic tests not provide us with an inventory. It was an independent in the UK going up. That is because of the investment body and that was a decision for it to take—difficult as I that is going in under this Government. know that is. It stated: 1507 Oral Answers6 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 1508

“We would not wish, inadvertently, to discourage future The Prime Minister: I urge my hon. Friend to look decommissioning events by groups that are actively engaged carefully at the detail of our proposals. We want a today, nor to deter groups that have decommissioned their arms progressive system in which people who earn more pay from handing over any arms that may subsequently come to back more, which is why nobody pays anything until light”. they earn £21,000, and people do not start to pay back This is difficult and we are all having to do, in Northern in full until they earn £35,000. We propose that people Ireland as elsewhere in the world, difficult things in who pay back, say, £3,000 a year in earnings should not order to bring conflict to an end and keep conflict at an be discouraged, because in many ways that is the right end. That is what the independent commission’s report thing to do. was doing. Q10. [63879] Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): In Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): Is not the real opposition, the Prime Minister made it clear that Hizb issue about delaying an inquiry that the public have ut-Tahrir should be banned, but last week he fell back little confidence in the Metropolitan police where on exactly the same explanations that he refused to investigations concerning News International are concerned? accept when they were given to him by the previous May I remind the Prime Minister of the question I Prime Minister. What has changed? asked him on 27 April about whether he would have “a full judicial inquiry and, in particular, look at the relationship The Prime Minister: We have banned the Tehrik-e- between the Metropolitan police and News International?”—[Official Taliban—we have taken action. As my right hon. Friend Report, 27 April 2011; Vol. 527, c. 168.] the Lord Chancellor will hastily testify, it is endlessly frustrating that we are subject to so many legal requirements, The Prime Minister: Clearly, this is a very important but I am afraid that we have to be a Government under issue. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has the law. [Interruption.] discussed it with the Metropolitan Police Commissioner this morning and they want to continue with the Mr Speaker: Order. The House will want to hear investigation that is under way. But let me try to reassure Mr Robert Halfon. the House and the hon. Gentleman about this because even before we get to the point about independent and Q11. [63880] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Thank public inquiries, what the public need to know is that you, Mr Speaker. Given that the Olympics and the the police are going to go about their job properly in diamond jubilee will take place next year, is the Prime this investigation, so they do need to know that this is Minister aware that immigration and special branch an investigation completely separate from the previous officers at Stansted airport are concerned that the investigation. As it stands today, it is one of the largest common travel area channel in its current form allows police investigations going on anywhere in our country. illegal migrants, Islamists and terrorists into the country without their passports being checked? Will he Q9. [63878] Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) take urgent steps to close that loophole immediately? (Lab): Victims of knife crime in London have increased by more than 8% in the past three months. On the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important streets of London we have children carrying knives and point. Passport-free travel between the UK, the Crown other children afraid of the journey to and from dependencies and the Republic of Ireland has been in school. Last Friday, on a busy shopping parade, a place for many years, and it offers real economic and 16-year-old constituent of mine was stabbed to death. social benefits. I accept that those routes can be open to Two children have been arrested in connection with abuse, and we are determined to resolve that. The UK that. What will the Prime Minister do to ensure that the Border Agency is working closely with Ireland and Mayor of London gets a grip on this problem, which others to make sure that that happens, but we want to was one of both the Mayor’s and the Prime Minister’s try to do so without disadvantaging people who have election promises? been able to take advantage of that common travel area up to now. The Prime Minister: The case that the hon. Lady raises is an absolutely tragic one and there are still too Q12. [63881]MrsMaryGlindon(NorthTyneside)(Lab): many victims of knife crime, particularly among young The Secretary of State for Communities and Local people in our cities and particularly in London. What Government and the Secretary of State for Work and we are doing is creating a new offence with a mandatory Pensions have both said that British employers should prison sentence to send a very clear message to those employ British workers, so will the Prime Minister stop who carry knives. The offence will apply to those with a the Department for Work and Pensions offshoring knife who threaten and endanger others in a public existing jobs in North Tyneside to Bangalore? place. That will send a clear message to those who possess a knife that if they threaten anyone they will go The Prime Minister: Of course I will look closely at to jail. the case that the hon. Lady makes, but every Government—[Interruption.] Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that those who pay back Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear the Prime Minister’s early their student loans are doing the right thing and answer, and so does the House. should be encouraged? If so, how is that consistent with the Government’s policy, which is apparently one of The Prime Minister: We need to make sure that our discouraging people from paying back early, and indeed welfare reforms encourage those people who sit on of penalising them for early repayment of student loans? welfare and who could work actually to go out to work. 1509 Oral Answers6 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 1510

Under the Labour Government, yes, we had economic condemning this upsurge in gang-related violence and growth, but there were 5 million working-age people confirm that those who carry knives will face a living on benefits. That is not good enough, and we are custodial sentence if apprehended? going to change it. The Prime Minister: As I said to the hon. Member for Q13. [63882] Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce), it is important Does the Prime Minister agree that birthing centres in that we send a clear message about this. We are doing rural areas provide a valuable and irreplaceable service that with the new offence which carries a mandatory to the local community, and every effort should be sentence. That is a signal to anyone who is contemplating made to retain them—a message that hundreds of my carrying a knife, but we should be frank with ourselves constituents and I are sending to Derbyshire County in the House and in the country that purely looking at NHS as it considers the future of the Corbar birthing the issue from a criminal justice perspective is not the centre in my constituency of High Peak? answer. We have to ask ourselves why so many young children are joining gangs, and why our families and The Prime Minister: I absolutely agree with my hon. communities are not doing more to keep them close Friend. We want to see maternity networks so that and prevent the carrying of knives. That is something mums can make a choice about where they give birth, that runs right across Government and across our society whether in a community setting, midwife-led, or whether as well. in a district general hospital with all the paraphernalia of consultants and the rest of it. It should be a choice Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): It is simply not the made by them with their GP and others on what is right case, as the Prime Minister claimed earlier, that the for their needs. Government have followed the normal process in relation to the News Corp takeover of BSkyB. Why does he Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab): Is the Prime believe that the assurances that News Corp executives Minister aware that yesterday, when Bombardier had to have given are any more credible than the assurances announce the redundancy, among others, of skilled they gave over phone hacking? engineers and designers, the company made public for the first time the fact that it had offered to establish a The Prime Minister: The point is that we have followed new academy in this country for the design and manufacture the correct legal processes. If you do not follow the of cars for the next generation of high-speed trains for correct legal processes, you will be judicially reviewed, the UK and across the world—a global centre of excellence, and all the decisions that you would like to make from a providing more jobs and jobs with even higher skills. He political point of view will be struck down in the courts. will not have had time to familiarise himself with the You would look pretty for a day, but useless for a week. details, but will he undertake to look into that with care [Interruption.] to give substance to the commitment that he made in Mr Speaker: Order. If the House can overcome its my constituency to British manufacturers? collective mirth, it will give a hearing to Mr Ian Swales.

The Prime Minister: I will look carefully at what the Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): Last Friday I visited right hon. Lady has said about this issue. I want to see Grangetown school in my constituency, which is the more British jobs in manufacturing as, indeed, we are 17th most deprived primary school in the country. Will seeing across the country. In the case of the Bombardier the Prime Minister join me in congratulating the school train contract, the procurement process was designed and community on their work to convert an area of and initiated by the Government of whom she was a demolished houses into a school playing field, and will member. We are bound by the criteria that they set out, he ensure that the Government continue their pupil so we have to continue with the decision that has been premium policy to support the school’s excellent work? made according to those criteria. Separately, we are setting out to ask what more we can do under the rules The Prime Minister: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman to make sure that we boost manufacturing and not have on the support that he is showing to his local primary situations like this in future. schools. I believe that the pupil premium, which will pump billions extra into education, particularly for the Q14. [63883] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): most deprived children in the most deprived parts of Twelve days ago a young constituent of mine was our country—[Interruption.] It will make a huge difference the victim of a vicious knife attack. Last weekend to our schools. For all the noise from the Opposition, another 16-year-old young man was also the victim of they had 13 years to introduce a pupil premium. What a knife attack. Will my right hon. Friend join me in did we get? Absolutely nothing. 1511 6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan 1512

Afghanistan complex and dangerous operations. The Afghan forces are growing rapidly and are ahead of schedule to meet 12.32 pm the current target of having 171,600 in the Afghan army and 134,000 in the Afghan police by the end of October The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): With this year. They are now deploying in formed units and permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement carrying out their own operations. on Afghanistan. There have been some real successes. Afghan national From the outset this Government have sought to security forces have prevented insurgents from reaching take a more hard-headed, more security-based approach to many of their targets, and just eight days ago, when a our mission. As I have said, we are not there to build a major hotel was attacked in Kabul, they dealt with the perfect democracy, still less a model society. Yes, we will situation. This was a major, sophisticated attack. They help with the establishment of democratic institutions. dealt with it professionally and speedily, calling in assistance Yes, we can improve infrastructure, develop education, from a NATO helicopter only to deal with insurgents encourage development. But we are in Afghanistan for on the roof. As General Petraeus stressed to me, they one overriding reason: to ensure our own national security acquitted themselves extremely well. It is this growing by helping the Afghans to take control of theirs. strength and capability that will allow us over time to This means building up the Afghan security forces so hand over control of security to Afghan forces and we can draw down British combat forces, with the draw down our own numbers. Afghans themselves able to prevent al-Qaeda from returning We remain committed to the objective, shared by and posing a threat to us and to our allies around the President Karzai and the whole of NATO, that the world. This is particularly poignant today, on the eve of Afghans should assume lead security responsibility across the sixth anniversary of 7/7—an attack that was inspired the whole country by the end of 2014. Last month by al- Qaeda and executed by extremists following the President Obama announced that the US will withdraw same perverted ideology that underpinned the 11 September 10,000 of its forces from Afghanistan by the end of this attack in 2001. year and complete the removal of the US surge—some Three hundred and seventy-five British servicemen 33,000—by the end of next summer. At the time of the and women have died fighting in Afghanistan to help US surge, the UK increased its core force levels by an strengthen that country and keep Britons and Britain extra 500. For our part, I have already said that we will safe from another 9/11 or 7/7. Thousands more, including withdraw 426 UK military personnel by February 2012. many civilians, have risked their lives, and hundreds Today I can announce that the UK will be able to have been injured fighting for the security of our nation. reduce its force levels by a further 500, from 9,500 to They have been part of an international coalition involving 9,000, by the end of 2012. This decision has been agreed 48 countries with a specific UN mandate, working at by the National Security Council on the advice of our the invitation of a democratically elected Government. military commanders. Though there have been many, many difficult times, we These reductions reflect the progress being made in should be clear about what has been achieved. building up the Afghan national security forces. Indeed, In 2009, my predecessor as Prime Minister told the it is worth noting that for every US soldier who leaves as House that some three quarters of the most serious the surge is removed, two Afghans will take their place. terrorist plots against Britain had links to Afghanistan This marks the start of a process that will ensure that by and Pakistan. We must always be on our guard, but I the end of 2014 there will be nothing like the number of am advised that the figure is now significantly reduced. British troops who are there now, and they will not be International forces have been bearing down on al-Qaeda serving in a combat role. This is the commitment I have and their former hosts, the Taliban, in both Pakistan made, and this is the commitment we will stick to. and Afghanistan. In Pakistan, Osama bin Laden has Having taken such a huge share of the burden and been killed and al-Qaeda significantly weakened. In performed so magnificently for a decade, this country Afghanistan, British and international forces have driven needs to know that there is an end-point to the level of al-Qaeda from its bases and, although it is too early to our current commitment and to combat operations. tell for certain, initial evidence suggests that we have This decision is right not only for Britain but for halted the momentum of the Taliban insurgency in its Afghanistan. It has given the Afghans a clear deadline heartland in Helmand province. against which to plan and has injected a sense of urgency We are now entering a new phase in which the Afghan into their efforts. forces will do more of the fighting and patrolling, and Although there is a clear end-point to our military our forces more training and mentoring. As President combat role, after 2014 the UK will continue to have a Obama said in his address last month, the mission is major strategic relationship with Afghanistan: a changing from “combat to support.” When we arrived development relationship, a diplomatic relationship and there was no one to hand over to—no proper army, no a trade relationship. Above all, we have a vital national police force. In many places across the country the security interest in preventing Afghanistan from once Afghan security forces now stand ready to begin the again becoming a safe haven for international terror, so process of taking over security responsibility. although our forces will no longer be present in a Success in Afghanistan requires a number of critical combat role we will have a continuing military relationship. steps. The first is to ensure that Afghan security forces We will continue to train Afghan security forces. In are able to secure their own territory. There have been Afghanistan I announced plans for a new officer training well-known problems, especially with the Afghan police, academy, which President Karzai specifically asked me but there has been real progress in the past two years. for, and which I am proud Britain is able to deliver. We General Petraeus went out of his way to praise the intend to lead the academy from 2013, in addition to recent performance of Afghan forces in a number of maintaining our current role in the officer candidate 1513 Afghanistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan 1514

[The Prime Minister] the first phase of transition is a sign of the transformation that we have helped to bring about there. school, which is due to merge with the academy in 2017. As we enter this new phase of transition, I am sure We will continue our efforts to help Afghanistan build a the whole House will want to join me in paying tribute viable state, but our support cannot be unconditional. to our servicemen and women who have made such In my meeting with President Karzai, I made clear incredible sacrifices to defend our national security. the Afghan Government’s responsibility to ensure that While we have been going about our daily lives, they British taxpayers’ money is spent well and spent wisely. have been out there day and night, fighting in the heat I emphasised to President Karzai just how important it and the dust and giving up the things that we all take for is that he personally grips the problems with the Kabul granted. bank and the need for a new International Monetary That is the true character of the British Army, and it Fund programme. I also urged him to support due is why we are so incredibly proud of all our forces and democratic process and to tackle corruption, and I the families who support them, and why we are so made it very clear that, although Britain wants to stand grateful for everything that they do for us. I commend by Afghanistan beyond the end of our combat mission, this statement to the House. we can do so only on the basis that Afghanistan must help itself, too. Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the Almost all insurgencies have ended with a combination Prime Minister in paying tribute to our forces, who of military pressure and political settlement, and there serve with such dedication and such heroism in Afghanistan, is no reason why Afghanistan should prove any different. and let me just say to him that, whatever differences As we strengthen the Afghan Government and security separate us on other issues, I commend the substance forces, so we will back President Karzai’s efforts to work and the tone of his statement today and, indeed, his towards an Afghan-led political settlement. The death approach to the issue of Afghanistan. of bin Laden presents the Taliban with a moment of real As we prepare to remember tomorrow the victims of choice. Al-Qaeda are weakened; their leader is dead. the attacks of 7/7, we are all reminded of why we are Last month, the United Nations adopted two separate engaged in Afghanistan: to secure our security at home. sanctions regimes, creating a clear distinction that separates That is why Opposition Members continue to support the Taliban from al-Qaeda. Local peace councils have our forces in Afghanistan. We continue to support also now been established in almost all of Afghanistan’s the Prime Minister’s intention to end the British combat provinces. These have already allowed more than role in Afghanistan by the end of 2014. It is right that 1,800 people from 17 provinces to be enrolled on the we make it clear to the Afghan Government and their scheme for reintegration, so we should take this opportunity security forces that they need to step up and take to send a clear message to the Taliban: now is the time responsibility for the future of the country, and it is to break decisively from al-Qaeda and to participate in right that we make it clear to the British people that this a peaceful political process. is not a war without end. In this task, we need Pakistan’s assistance. As I This year and next we must maintain the combination discussed with President Zardari last week, that process of military pressure, the accelerated build-up of the is now as much in Pakistan’s interests as Britain’s or Afghan security forces and the work on basic governance Afghanistan’s, because the Taliban pose a mortal threat and justice. I support the Prime Minister’s plan to to the state of Pakistan as well. maintain British troop levels above 9,000, as they have been for the past two years, for this fighting season and There is no reason why Afghanistan should be destined the next. That will give our forces the best chance of to remain a broken country. It has abundant mineral consolidating the situation before the process of transition wealth and fertile agricultural land, and it stands at the to Afghan control accelerates in 2012 and 2013, when crossroads of Asia’s great trading highway.It has succeeded our forces can start to come home in greater numbers. in the past when not wracked by conflict, but Afghanistan still has many challenges ahead. May I first ask the Prime Minister about our troop commitments? Will he assure the House that if our There are real security issues and a lack of Government reductions go slower than those of other countries—in capacity, but 10 years ago Afghanistan was in the particular, America—that will not cause British forces grip of a regime that banned young girls from schools, to take on a disproportionate share of the burden in hanged people in football stadiums for minor Helmand? Can he assure the House that detailed plans misdemeanours and banished radios and any form of for troop draw-down will always be based on military entertainment—while all the time incubating the terrorists advice and conditions on the ground? I am sure that he who struck on 9/11 and elsewhere. can give that assurance. We ask our troops to do a Afghanistan, for all its imperfections, has come a difficult job in testing circumstances. Will the Prime long way. Today, it is no longer a haven for global terror, Minister assure the House that our armed forces will its economy is growing and it has a Parliament, a continue to receive all the equipment they need in the developing legal system, provincial and district governors months ahead, including the 12 Chinooks he promised and the basic building blocks of what could be a successful but for which the order has still not been placed? democracy. The bravery and professionalism of our armed forces In Helmand province, which with Kandahar, we should deserve to be given the best chance of success. As the remember, was a stronghold of the Taliban and the Prime Minister said in his statement, that will be realised insurgency, there is now a growing economy, falling only if we see political progress in Afghanistan. The poppy cultivation and many more effective district political track is as important as the decisions on troop governors. The fact that President Karzai has been able numbers and military strategy. As I understand it, there to choose Lashkar Gah as one of the areas to include in are still talks about talks. I am sure the Prime Minister 1515 Afghanistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan 1516 will agree that much work needs to be done between but for how we are proposing to draw down and bring it now and the Bonn conference in December, and indeed to an end. He is right to say that the combination of after it, if we are to make the most of this opportunity. I military pressure, the build-up of the ANSF and a have some specific questions on that issue. political process can enable us to meet our objective. First, to build on the excellent work of Stefan di The right hon. Gentleman asked some specific questions, Mistura, the UN special representative, will the Prime the first of which was on troop commitments. Yes, we Minister press for the Security Council to appoint a are withdrawing troops more slowly than the US, but of senior figure, perhaps Mr di Mistura or someone from course the US had a surge of about 33,000 troops. Its the Muslim world, to be empowered to mediate between enduring number is more like 70,000, so obviously it the Afghan Government, ISAF and those members of makes sense for our draw-down to be proportionately the Taliban who renounce violence? Such a figure could smaller. It is important for us to have the draw-down in help to secure the commitment of countries in the the way I have said. region to support a new political settlement, reflecting their shared interest in long-term stability in Afghanistan. The right hon. Gentleman said, quite rightly, that we must be careful as the draw-down takes place that we do Secondly, although it must remain a red line that the not put a disproportionate burden on the remaining British Taliban and others must commit to a peaceful political troops. I am very clear that we must not enter into large process, the constitution need not be set in stone. Will new operational areas. We should continue the excellent the Prime Minister press the Afghan High Peace Council work that we are doing in Helmand province, handing to consider constitutional reform, including a more over progressively to the Afghans. Indeed, we are seeing devolved Afghan state, which I believe is one demand the transition of Lashkar Gah and it might well be that could unite people with political differences? Those possible to transition other parts of Helmand province steps need to be taken now so that by the time of the in a very effective way before the end of the process. Bonn conference in December the ground has been prepared and real progress can be made. On the issue of equipment, one thing that struck me As we look to a stronger Afghanistan, we all recognise on the visit from which I have just returned, and indeed that there are issues of governance and the rule of law. on visits over the past couple of years, is that there is Will the Prime Minister say more about the ongoing now a real sense among our troops that they have the scandal over the Kabul bank? I welcome that he raised equipment they need. The body armour is much improved, the issue with President Karzai. Does he agree that this as is the quality of vehicles, such as Mastiffs. There is no problem symbolises the inability of the Afghan Government use of Snatch Land Rovers outside bases any more, and at times to distance themselves from practices that what has taken place is very positive. Obviously some of threaten to undermine the Afghan economy and that action was initiated under the previous Government, international development assistance? Will he tell us and it has been continued under this Government. more about the role that Britain is playing to get the Funding the urgent operational requirements in Afghan Government to take the necessary steps to Afghanistan is working well. Clearly we need to ensure tackle the crisis in the Kabul bank and allow the that we have helicopter capacity and that Chinooks and International Monetary Fund to resume its proper support? the rest go ahead. Finally, I turn to Pakistan. We all accept that long-term On talks, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned the stability in Afghanistan depends on stability in Pakistan. need for a new international figure. I feel that perhaps When I met President Zardari last week, I commended the time for that has passed. I think that we now need the hard work and sacrifice of the Pakistan security an Afghan-led process. There are now much more effective forces in tackling violent extremism in the north-west of discussions taking place between Afghanistan and Pakistan, the country. As the Prime Minister said in his statement, with a much more positive attitude on both sides. We the situation in Pakistan continues to be serious. There should do what we can to give that every possible is a danger that the bringing to justice of Osama bin support. Laden, which should be welcomed on all sides, will not The right hon. Gentleman talked about the High have that effect in Pakistan. What steps is the Prime Peace Council. I met former President Rabbani, and I Minister taking to put British support for counter-terrorism think he is doing extremely good work in that process. in Pakistan at the heart of our relationship with the We should not be completely hung up on every element Pakistan Government? of the current Afghan constitution, but it is important We all want to see British troops come home at the to give a reassurance to the Government, Parliament earliest opportunity, not least the family and friends of and people of Afghanistan that there is not some secret those who are currently serving in Afghanistan. However, agenda to carve their country up. There is not. We want we also want the campaign to be concluded in a way to see a strong and stable Afghanistan, with everyone that ensures that their service and sacrifice has not been within it playing a part in its future. in vain, and that Afghanistan and the wider region On the Kabul bank, we are very clear about what is move into a stable future, rather than once again posing necessary. We need a forensic audit of what went wrong a serious threat to our security and that of other countries. and what happened, and we need the recapitalisation of I welcome today’s statement as a step along that path. I the central bank so that the financial system is properly say to the Prime Minister that I will continue to work supported. The UK is massively involved in that process, with him on Afghanistan so that we can redouble our and we are working for a positive outcome. We need it, efforts on the military and political fronts to give because otherwise funds cannot flow into organisations Afghanistan the stability it needs for the future. in Afghanistan in the way that they need to. The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the right hon. The right hon. Gentleman is entirely right to commend Gentleman for his response to the statement and for the the Pakistani security forces for what they have done in very good cross-party support not only for the mission the north-west frontier and elsewhere. On the British 1517 Afghanistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan 1518

[The Prime Minister] see real commitment from the Afghans to work with the Pakistanis and real commitment from the Pakistanis to relationship with Pakistan, what is important at a time work with the Afghans. when it is clearly under huge challenge is obviously to President Karzai made the very reasonable point to talk about our counter-terrorism relationship, but also the Pakistanis when he recently visited that there must to stress all the parts of our relationship and explain be an ability to allow Taliban who want to talk to go to that we are there for a democratic and peaceful Pakistan talk, but that those Taliban who do not want to talk for the long term, just as we want to have a long-term must be arrested and confronted by the Pakistanis. It relationship with Afghanistan. Both those countries seems to me that it is about commitment. We can wrap fear, and have good evidence from the past, that some in all the processes in the world around it, and I will the west will walk away. We must convince them that certainly look at what the right hon. Gentleman says, our long-term interests are to be with them and stand but in the end what we should be about is encouraging with them. real commitment to make the peace process work. Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): May I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to the magnificent Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): May I performance of the men and women of all three services endorse the points that have just been made about the and all those who support them in Afghanistan? May I need for regional involvement in stability? The Prime particularly commend the decision that he has pushed Minister went to some lengths to explain what the forward to have an officer training school in Afghanistan United Kingdom would do after the withdrawal of and provide the personnel to be instructors? The British combat forces. What confidence does he have that other Army is brilliant at that and will do it very well. May I countries—for example, members of NATO or the suggest that he might also consider whether our resources European Union—will be willing to contribute in a might extend to doing the same thing to provide help in similar way? training civil servants? The Prime Minister: I think there is good evidence The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely that there is a real commitment in NATO. Many NATO right, and I misspoke—I referred to the spirit of the partners say that we joined this together and should British Army, but I should have talked about all the leave together. There is a growing understanding that British armed services. It is very striking when one is what needs to be done in cases such as this is to have an there just how many RAF personnel, and indeed how enduring relationship rather than just a short-term many Navy personnel, are in Afghanistan, not least the relationship. That argument is well understood, and the Marines. I had the great pleasure of being able to speak commitment that other NATO members have made to to both the UK Royal Marines and the US Marine the training positions in Afghanistan is a pretty positive Corps—an odd thing to do on Independence day, but I story. struggled through none the less. My hon. Friend is right to mention what we are Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): As someone calling “Sandhurst in the sand”, which I think is the who takes a somewhat different view on Afghanistan, right proposal for British involvement in the future. may I make it quite clear that I pay tribute, as I Clearly there is also a case for doing more on civil have previously, to the British troops involved for their service training, and we will look at that as well. bravery? David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab): May I beseech Will the Prime Minister continue to reject the arguments the Prime Minister to reconsider his rejection of the of those who oppose ending the British combat role in idea of a UN mediator? His own arguments about the the next four years? As far as I am concerned, I would record of the Afghan Government, and indeed its present like to see it done earlier. Is there not a very strong activities, show why an independent figure from the feeling in this country that, after 10 years, the British Muslim world needs to be engaged there, with the people want out? Afghan Government as a party but also with western nations and neighbours as parties. The Prime Minister: I think what the British people Secondly, will the Prime Minister pick up the idea of want is some certainty about the length of the mission a council of regional stability? Although he is right to and what it involves. My belief is that because we have mention Pakistan, the truth is that stability in Afghanistan been in Afghanistan since 2001 and in Helmand province requires the engagement of all its neighbours, not just since 2006, it is reasonable to say to people that we are the Pakistanis. The dangers in Afghanistan relate not going to be there until the end of 2014 in large numbers just to the presence of the Taliban in the political and in a combat role, but that after that the numbers system but to some of the northern and other groups. A will be lower and we will not be in a combat role. That council of regional stability is essential to provide the gives people in our own country some certainty, but it type of support for a stable Afghanistan that we all also puts some pressure on the Afghans to ensure that want to see. they have really worked out how they need to take their responsibilities. The advice that I receive from our military The Prime Minister: I listen carefully to the right hon. commanders is that this is doable. Yes, it is challenging, Gentleman, who has considerable experience in this. I but it is on track to be achieved. agree very much about ensuring that Afghanistan’s neighbours are fully involved. One point I would make, Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con): though, is that from what I have seen there is no I welcome what my right hon. Friend said about the shortage of ideas for new processes to wrap around modest withdrawal of troops next year, and along with that. The problem is a lack of commitment. We need to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas 1519 Afghanistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan 1520

Soames) I also particularly welcome what the Prime Clearly, al-Qaeda has been absolutely hammered in Minister said about the officer training academy in Pakistan—it has lost a huge number of its senior leaders— Afghanistan. Will the military relationship after 2015 and it has nothing like the presence in Afghanistan that extend beyond that academy to training, mentoring, it had when it was hosted by the Taliban in 2001. Our logistics and other support? aim should be not just to exclude al-Qaeda from Afghanistan, but to ensure that the Afghans can go on The Prime Minister: Yes, it will. Let us look at the ensuring that exclusion without the support of foreign numbers—we are talking about roughly 120 British troops. That is our real enduring aim. personnel for the training academy, supplemented by other countries’ personnel. Indeed, the US has agreed Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): I express my to put, I think, $38 million into the training academy. admiration for the service personnel, including the men Clearly we want to do more over and above that, and and women of York’s 2 Signal Regiment, whom I met in the National Security Council will discuss precisely how Afghanistan when I went with the NATO Parliamentary much we should commit and how much we will spend. Assembly three weeks ago. As our troops come home Yes, of course we will be going over and above that as we will, thanks to the NATO training mission, leave part of an important relationship to help Afghanistan behind very strong, and very well-trained and armed, build and maintain its capacity. Afghan national security forces. However, at the current rate of progress we will also leave behind fragmented Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab): politics. Given the history of military dictatorship and May I join the Prime Minister in expressing my condolences authoritarian states in the region, I believe that Afghanistan to the family of Scott McLaren, who was killed in such could go the same way. What are our Government tragic circumstances earlier this week? He came from doing to try to prevent that from being the medium-term Edinburgh. His loss of life is a reminder to us of the outcome? sacrifice being made in Afghanistan by so many young people from this country. The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes a When the Prime Minister spoke of drawing down very good point. The more mechanical task of training troop levels next year, I think I am right in saying that the Afghan army and police is now going very well. he meant reducing our troops to the numbers that we There were errors and mistakes in the early days, but I had at about the beginning of 2009. However, I was think that they have been ironed out. I was very struck unclear about what will happen after 2014. Are we by what General Petraeus and Lieutenant-General talking about maintaining such a significant presence Rodriguez said about the quality of the Afghan army. after that time? I appreciate that the troops will be in a Clearly, the long pole in the tent—as they like to call different role and doing different things, but the House it—is how strong, sustainable and vigorous is the quality will want to have some idea whether we are talking of Afghan governance and democracy. The moment about maintaining such a significant presence, and also there is a stand-off between the Executive on the one of where other countries stand on that. hand and the Parliament in the other, we must settle those issues. The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman asks a totally appropriate and legitimate question. What I As I said, I do not think that we will achieve perfection— have said is that the numbers are going down to 9,000 Afghanistan is a country without a long-standing by the end of 2012. We must then work out the right democratic history—but we must help to put in place number for 2013 and into 2014. I have said that after basic democratic institutions and functioning government. that, we will not be in Afghanistan in anything like the The British effort is hugely geared towards that task. same number, nor in a combat role. I am not in a position now to give a figure for, as it were, the enduring Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Given that for many commitment, through 2015 and beyond and the training years our Government negotiated with the Provisional role, which involves the officer training academy and IRA while we were still fighting, I suspect that at some other training work. We are not in a position yet to put level, we will be negotiating with the Taliban. Will my a figure on that, but it will obviously be way down from right hon. Friend the Prime Minister agree that one of the figures that we talk about today. the most important things that we must put forward in any negotiations with the Taliban is that al-Qaeda Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): The Prime should never become part of Afghanistan if the Taliban Minister reaffirmed today that the stated policy objective were ever to form a Government, or part of a Government, in Afghanistan is to deny al-Qaeda a base from which it in that country? can attack the UK and other British interests. From that, it is fair to assume that he continues to receive The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right. Let me intelligence that al-Qaeda remains a threat in Afghanistan. make two points. First, this must be an Afghan-led I know that this is difficult, but will he consider how process. This is about the Afghans trying to bring that information and intelligence can be shared with the together in their country all the elements that should House? form a part of its future. Clearly, if the Taliban separate themselves from al-Qaeda, and if they are prepared to The Prime Minister: Obviously, the whole process of give up violence and accept the basic tenets of the sharing intelligence is a difficult vexed issue, and there Afghan constitutions, those are end conditions. If they are some difficult recent historical connotations. What I can do that, there is the potential for a political process said in my statement is that there was a time when the that can speed the end of this conflict. Clearly, we must lion’s share of plots that threatened people in UK came go ahead on the basis that we are building the Afghan from the Afghanistan-Pakistan region. The number of army and continuing with very tough operations to take such plots has come down significantly since then. out Taliban insurgents, but that there is also the opportunity 1521 Afghanistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan 1522

[The Prime Minister] homes, and children—girls—not allowed to go to school. Will he ask the President to include women in his for a political integration process at the low level, and a negotiating team? Many women are fearful of what will reconciliation process at the high level, that can speed happen in Afghanistan in future, and they deserve such the end of the conflict, and we can end up with a more assurances. stable and peaceful Afghanistan. The Prime Minister: The right hon. Lady makes a Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Prime very good point. I would stress that prominent Afghan Minister referred to the recent attacks on the hotel in women are involved in that reconciliation process through Kabul, which is well inside several security rings. Are the high peace council, which is run by former President there not worrying indications that the Taliban are Rabbani. Clearly, nobody wants a return to the days of infiltrating parts of Afghanistan where they previously the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, but we must accept had not been? How confident can we be that the Afghan that if we want a speedier end to the insurgency and authorities and President Karzai will be a in a position long-term stability in Afghanistan, what President Karzai of complete control over the internal security of has referred to as his “lost cousins”—those who have Afghanistan by the end of 2014? lost their way—must be brought back into the body of Afghanistan. We found that fantastically difficult with The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes a Irish republican terrorists, but none the less, people who good point about the capacity of the Afghan Government were previously committed to violence, maiming and and the scale of the Afghan security forces, which is bombing people are now sitting in government in Stormont. improving all the time. The point I would make is that The same process must happen in Afghanistan, difficult there has been rather unfair press about the hotel. In though it is. fact, the Afghan security forces were able to clear it of insurgents rapidly. There was of course a regrettable Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): May loss of life, but the operation was fast and effective. I press the Prime Minister again on the importance of They drove the insurgents on to the roof, where they talks with the Taliban being non-conditional? Non- were effectively taken out with the assistance of NATO. conditional talks with the IRA helped to bring about We saw a similar attack on a hotel in Mumbai, and we peace in Northern Ireland, and I suggest that the US have seen suicide attacks in other countries. All I can wish for al-Qaeda and the Taliban to sever all ties say is that people who are pretty tough nuts, such as should be part of a settlement rather than a precondition. General Petraeus and Lieutenant-General Rodriguez, were very impressed by what the Afghan security forces The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right, in that did. We should be talking that up, not talking it down. what matters is the end of the process. If we can get into a political process in Afghanistan with people who have Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): separated from al-Qaeda, given up violence and accepted Although my right hon. Friend, and indeed President the basic tenets of the Afghan constitution, that will be Obama, are under all kinds of pressures to speed up the a success. However, we cannot shade or fudge the idea withdrawal from Afghanistan, and although that would of letting armed terrorists into government. We need to be the wrong reason to withdraw, may I commend my have some red lines in our minds about what is possible right hon. Friend on setting a timetable, because that is and appropriate, otherwise we will not end up with how to accelerate the political process in Kabul and stability or any form of functioning state. make President Karzai sit up and engage in the some of the talks that are already taking place? I also agree with Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The Prime my right hon. Friend that it would be quite wrong to Minister will know of increasing concern about the use internationalise that process. It must be done through of drones in Afghanistan and elsewhere, particularly the tribal structures and Loya Jirgas in Afghanistan, by about the risk that they will strike civilians. Just yesterday and for Afghans. It is not something that we can supervise it was confirmed that a drone had killed four Afghan from the UN. civilians and injured two others. Given that military officials are saying that almost one third of the Royal The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for his Air Force could be made up of drones within the next question; perhaps I can adjudicate between the two 20 years, will he review the use of this policy? poles in the House. The process must be Afghan led. We do not want a bad, tribal, poorly thought-through The Prime Minister: Of course it matters hugely that carve-up that will lead to future instability. Clearly, we avoid civilian casualties, whether in Afghanistan or there must be a proper reconciliation process, but what I in Libya. However, I do not think that the answer is to have seen—a timetable has perhaps assisted with this—is turn our face away from the modern technology that a very positive engagement from Afghanistan in Pakistan can now pinpoint people who are doing us harm. The on their shared future. We can push, encourage and technology being used in Afghanistan, including drones work with those two countries, but in the end they must and other aerial ISTAR—intelligence, surveillance, target make decisions together on how they will be more acquisition and reconnaissance—cameras, has been hugely secure. effective in driving back the Taliban insurgency and taking out people who are doing us harm. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): Everybody would welcome the fact that peace negotiations are seriously Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): 16 Air Assault Brigade under way. May I ask the Prime Minister for assurances recently returned from its fourth deployment to that the rights of women will not be sold down the Afghanistan, much good having been achieved. I urge river? Those rights have been hard fought for. We do caution over the speed of the withdrawal of British not want to see women once again imprisoned in their troops in case all that good work comes to nothing. In 1523 Afghanistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan 1524 particular, I draw the Prime Minister’s attention to what we are now seeing, in some cases, lowering morale happened in the summer of 2008, when the four battalions among the Taliban within Afghanistan because their of the Parachute Regiment joined forces to transport a “brave” mid and high-level leaders are cowering over turbine to the Kajaki dam. Three years later, it still has the border in Pakistan. That is what has happened, and not been connected up. we need to keep up that pressure. Of course we need to work with the Afghans so that they have the long-term The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good capability to go on dealing with the insurgency, if it point. I do not want us to jeopardise the success achieved continues—even in a minor way—along the lines that so far. From my many conversations with our service he suggests. However, no one should think that the personnel, many of whom are going back to Afghanistan Taliban are not under pressure; they are under huge for a second, third or, as he said, even a fourth time, it pressure because of the surge and the effectiveness of seems to me that morale is extremely high, and that the operations in which we are also engaged. there is a sense that we are achieving good things in Afghanistan. However, I think that we need to focus on Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Will what is effective. One problem has been that we should the Prime Minister guarantee that as we draw down have applied earlier the effective measures of counter- troops in Afghanistan, we will not draw down the insurgency that we are now pursuing—protecting the number of people who provide security for the diplomatic larger population centres and ensuring that the main teams that will be left in the country? transport routes are open. Some of what we have done in years gone by might have had important symbolism The Prime Minister: Obviously it is hugely important for Afghans, but the real symbolism lies in protecting that we secure those who work in our embassy. I had the large population centres so that people can go about great good fortune of meeting many people who work their daily lives. in the Kabul embassy, which is now one of our biggest embassies. They have to make huge compromises to Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Does the Prime work in such a difficult location, and their security Minister support the campaign by his own constituents needs to be absolutely at the top of our agenda. and many families of the bereaved for the processions that bring the bodies of the fallen back to this country Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): It to be rerouted through urban areas so that local people takes wisdom to set a date for withdrawal, but it takes can publicly express their respect, the families can express enormous courage to stick to that date. Will the Prime their grief and the country can be reminded of the true Minister reassure us that no amount of guilt at lost cost of war? lives, over-optimistic promises from generals or fear of The Prime Minister: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman lack of progress will ever shake his resolve that Britain has raised this issue. Obviously, as the constituency MP, will be entirely out of combat operations by the end of I take a close interest in it. I have tried to allow for the 2014 at the very latest? greatest possible consultation with the armed forces, the MOD and local councils in Carterton town and across The Prime Minister: I can give my hon. Friend that West Oxfordshire district council. I believe that we have assurance because it is important to give people a sense arrived at a sensible route with a far better centre for of an end time to these combat operations. As he said, it families within the airbase. Money is also being spent is always difficult to change the lay-down of British on a proper memorial garden where families will be able armed forces. I think that the early decision I made to to show their respects to their loved ones. A lot of focus on central Helmand and to get out of Sangin has thought has gone into this, and of course we must keep been hugely important in ensuring that we have the it under review and ensure that it is done in the right right concentration of forces on the ground to do the way. However, there is sometimes a great danger—whether job that we need to do. It is always difficult to come out it is the local MP or the Prime Minister—of stepping in of somewhere, but it is an important measure to make without allowing people to determine what is a good us more effective. That does not mean that lives have outcome that will be well done. Let us see how it works been lost in vain, however, and the Americans continue in practice before we jump to conclusions here. to do excellent work in Sangin. Nevertheless, we have to make hard-headed and difficult decisions for the long-term Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): If we are to good of our armed forces and country. achieve a political settlement involving the Taliban, there must be an incentive for the Taliban to negotiate. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): In his discussions At the moment, however, there is no such incentive. Has with President Karzai, did the Prime Minister raise the the Prime Minister received any indication from our issue of the exodus of thousands of Afghanis from American allies that they are contemplating the preservation Afghanistan? As he knows, I have raised this matter in of a long-term strategic base and bridgehead area in the the House before. Fifty thousand Afghanis crossed the region that would demonstrate to the Taliban, in any border between Turkey and Greece last year. Although future Government in which they participate, that the he accepts that the threat from al-Qaeda is receding in return of al-Qaeda or other international terrorist Afghanistan, it is increasing in Yemen. What are we organisations would not be tolerated and could easily going to do about country shopping by al-Qaeda? be punished? The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good entirely right. One of the roles of the National Security point. However, I think that there is an incentive to join Council is to sit down and look at the scale of the threat a political process, because Taliban mid and high-level that we face, and where that threat is coming from. leaders are being killed in ever larger numbers. Actually, Clearly the threat picture is changing, in that the number 1525 Afghanistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan 1526

[The Prime Minister] sometimes felt at Afghanistan being unable to do more on education itself, we are right to have the targeted of threats coming out of the Pakistan-Afghanistan area programme that we do, in order to put more Pakistani is receding, and the number coming from Yemen and children through school. Somalia is growing. The nation has to work out how smart we can be in combating that threat. That means Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I welcome learning lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan about how the Prime Minister’s statement, and pay tribute to the best to combat extremism and violence in those countries. bravery and dedication of our soldiers and security I am determined—with the good advice of the Home personnel in Afghanistan. Will he ensure, however, that Affairs Committee, I am sure—to learn those lessons. we will withdraw from Afghanistan at a time when we have achieved our overriding goal of ensuring our national Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I security, as he has stated in the House today? welcome today’s statement, and in particular the Prime Minister’s reminder to President Karzai that his The Prime Minister: The answer to that is yes. Our Government must be responsible for ensuring that British goal is that Afghanistan can secure itself from al-Qaeda taxpayers’ money is spent wisely and well. Can the and terrorist bases without the need for British or other Prime Minister reassure British taxpayers that measures forces. That is the goal, and that is why building up are in place to ensure that that happens? Afghanistan’s security apparatus is so central. All the other things that we have talked about today—schooling, The Prime Minister: I can give that assurance, but development, education—are important, but security is clearly not everything has been satisfactory up to now. the absolute key. The situation with the Kabul bank has been appalling, but we now have it moving towards a solution, because there will be a forensic audit and recapitalisation of the Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): I bank. However, we need to put in place procedures welcome the Prime Minister’s focus on an Afghan-led within the Afghan Government so that there is not the political solution, but in honour of the 375 brave British level of corruption and wasted money that there has service personnel who have died in Afghanistan, that been. solution must include the rights of women, rights for other minorities, religious freedom and a commitment Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): I to developing democracy. Can he assure me that in fully accept the Prime Minister’s argument that he detailed talks, those will be some of his red lines with cannot be entirely precise about how many of our the Taliban? troops will be in Afghanistan by the end of 2014. However, I am somewhat surprised that he can be so The Prime Minister: Those things are guaranteed certain that they will be there in a non-combat role. If through the Afghan constitution, and Afghanistan has the progress made over the next few years is not as made huge steps forward. Knowing President Karzai as positive as he anticipates, surely he would not allow our I do, I know that he would not agree to an Afghanistan troops there to be placed in a situation where security that was miles away from the sort of human rights and could not be secured, and which might require them development goals that my hon. Friend wants to see still to have a limited combat role. progressed. However, we have to have a hierarchy, as it were, and the hierarchy of need from the UK’s point of The Prime Minister: Let me turn the hon. Lady’s view is to focus on security and the Afghan Government’s question the other way round. If we are still in Afghanistan capacity to secure their own country. Other things have in 2014 in our current numbers and still in a combat to take their place behind that. role, clearly there would be something fundamentally wrong with the strategy that we would be pursuing. The John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): point is that we have a programme and a plan. It The Prime Minister seems to be guaranteeing that the involves the build-up of the Afghan national security 12 extra Chinooks will be ordered. Is that right? forces, which is going well, it involves working with our allies, which is going well, and it involves close co-operation The Prime Minister: What I am saying is that we have between us and the Afghans, all of which can be done. made announcements about Chinooks being ordered, That is what we should focus on, and that is the programme and we will stick to those announcements. that we will deliver.

Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): Britain welcome the Prime Minister’s statement. Does he agree can help to achieve peace and stability in Afghanistan that a key element in achieving long-term stability in by leaving a lasting long-term legacy. I welcome my Afghanistan and Pakistan will be providing good quality right hon. Friend’s announcement today about the officer basic education, which will give people hope and training school, but does he not agree that for education opportunities, and lead them away from entering into for all, especially young girls, is also important? sectarian and ethnic violence? The Prime Minister: I do agree: if we want to see The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. long-term stability in Afghanistan, that cannot be possible If we look at the huge population growth in Pakistan in by excluding half the population from being educated. particular, and the fact that more than 10 million children Indeed, if we look right across north Africa and the are now out of school, we have to ask what sort of middle east, the empowerment and education of women future will they grow up into and what sort of extremism is important not just for human rights, but for economic will they be prey to. That is why, in spite of the frustration development and for peace and progress. 1527 Afghanistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan 1528

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I welcome the project in Helmand. However, one of the lessons that I Prime Minister’s statement to the House today. Back in have learned from going to Afghanistan repeatedly over March, round about St Patrick’s day, several hon. Members, the last five years is that we can talk all we like about including me, had the opportunity to visit Afghanistan, destroying crops and the rest of it, but if we want to do and in particular Lashkar Gah. At that time, we met something about poppy cultivation the real key is building some of the people from the police training college. One roads, because we have to enable the Afghans to get could not fail to be impressed by their energy, enthusiasm their produce to market. If they do not have legitimate and commitment. However, they needed a $6 million produce to get to a legitimate market, the drug dealers new college, yet they told us that there was no start date will prey on them, give them their poppy seed and or completion date for it. If there is to be a handover of collect their poppy at the end of the harvest, and the job security, the police will need training. Can the Prime is done. This is about roads and government capacity as Minister give us a commitment on the start and completion much as it is about the criminal justice system. dates of the police training college in Lashkar Gah? Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): The Prime Minister: I shall make two points to the Given the Prime Minister’s remarks about the need to hon. Gentleman. First, the police training college in build Afghanistan’s political structures, he will have Lashkar Gah is up and running, and it is working. I seen today’s media reports, so can he confirm whether have visited it myself, and it is taking huge steps forward. the UK is considering sending senior civil servants or One of the tragedies of the situation is that police senior Officers of this House to Kabul on either a training was the responsibility of other countries. Britain permanent or a temporary basis? has had to take on some of those responsibilities directly, and we have done so very well. He will be interested to The Prime Minister: I had the great honour of meeting know that Lashkar Gah town will be one of the first the Speaker of the Afghan Parliament. As I understand places in Afghanistan to effect a transition. It is imminent: it, there will be good and strong relations between this indeed, already today, security in Lashkar Gah is basically Parliament and the Afghan Parliament, which is beginning provided by Afghans for Afghans. Having been to Lashkar to establish itself—but I will leave decisions on what Gah many times over the last five years, I find that fact Mr Speaker wants to do to Mr Speaker. pretty staggering and pretty encouraging, and I think others should too. Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I welcome the Prime Minister’s comments about education in Afghanistan, Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Given that but can he update the House on how much progress has the raw material for such a high proportion of the been made from investing in schooling and education illegal drugs on Britain’s streets starts in Afghanistan, over the years, and on where that leaves us now? what progress is being made on getting farmers to grow something other than poppy, and is the Prime Minister The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman asks a confident that the Afghan Government will continue good question. I shall write to him with the specific that work once we have left? figures for the number of Afghans in school in Helmand province and elsewhere. I think that he will see very The Prime Minister: We are seeing progress on that, good progress, but I will write to him with the exact and Britain has invested in the wheat seed distribution details. 1529 6 JULY 2011 Sunday Trading (Amendment) 1530

Sunday Trading (Amendment) Let us make allowances for people: for the shop worker who is desperate for overtime during this exceptional Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order period; for the employer who wants to adapt to cope No. 23) with the millions of extra customers and a different 1.28 pm pattern of trade; and for the average consumer who will want flexible shopping so that they can fully enjoy the Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): I beg to move, games. That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of State to permit local authorities to vary restrictions on Sunday Certain areas of Britain, such as Oxford street in trading on a temporary basis; and for connected purposes. London, and Blackpool and the Lake district are tourist The objective of this measure is to provide a temporary attractions in themselves. We must utilise the opportunity and modest economic stimulus during the period of the that the Olympics offer by giving businesses the chance Olympic games. This will be an exceptional period. to extend opening hours to consumers on the Sundays Britain has invested billions in the games, and we must up to and during these exciting events. This is a once-in- maximise the revenue opportunities from the a-lifetime opportunity to showcase the best of the UK’s hundreds of thousands of new tourists who will come culture, creativity and industry. It is anticipated that into Britain at the time. My desire is therefore to help to Britain will receive hundreds of thousands of extra offset the huge cost of the event by ensuring that every visitors per day.They will include 14,700 athletes, alongside opportunity is taken to boost the economy during those the 20,000 accredited journalists. Tens of thousands of six weeks or so. global opinion formers will be visiting our country. Scotland already has freer Sunday trading hours. England I support Sunday opening. Large stores are restricted and Wales therefore need to be prepared for the challenges to opening for six hours, between 10 am and 6 pm; that these additional visitors will place on the country. smaller shops are allowed to open for longer. Scotland has complete deregulation. This is about showing that As the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has England and Wales are open for business. We need to said, we must create a provision for events such as the Olympics, and “boost national self-confidence, enhance the UK’s reputation we need to offset the financial costs involved. I am a abroad” supporter of the games, which will bring hundreds of and thousands of international tourists and global opinion formers into the United Kingdom. “attract high value inward investment.” I want to make it clear from the start that the effects It is vital that we have the necessary services and facilities of this measure would be temporary in nature, as it for the largest number of visitors that Britain will ever would apply to only about half a dozen Sundays. This have seen. Olympic events will be going on at all times would be a small adjustment that could make a huge of the day. What a missed opportunity it would be if difference to thousands in the retail trade. This is not a tourists with money in their pockets leaving an event partisan issue; I know that many Members on both late on a Sunday afternoon were to find the shops sides of the House support this common-sense proposal. closed. The Olympic games also coincide with the annual Many of my colleagues will have been to the Olympic summer holidays for schools and universities in England park and seen the enormous amount of redevelopment and Wales. Those young people will fill the temporary there. Some of the largest regeneration projects in the jobs that will be created during the Olympic games, not UK have been undertaken in the run-up to London to mention the numerous temporary jobs created by 2012. They include the construction of Europe’s largest local businesses. This is a fantastic opportunity to encourage urban shopping centre. As the Prime Minister has said, our young people into work, and to improve their we must utilise the potential that such a place provides future employment prospects. for the country as a whole, by providing opportunities The Olympic games will bring benefits to areas across for the unemployed. the UK. These include Old Trafford in my own north-west, Millions of people will be visiting Britain in 2012; it a world famous football stadium that will be used to will be the year to showcase our country to the world. host nine football matches during the games. It is situated We have an incredible opportunity to demonstrate what next to the Trafford Centre, a hugely popular shopping Britain is capable of, and this opportunity, not just for venue. During the passage of my Bill, we can deal with London but for the whole of the UK, is one that we the powers for the Welsh Assembly and local authorities must get right. I am also mindful of my own north-west. that might not choose to take advantage of this temporary It is imperative that visitors are encouraged to return. measure. I do not wish to compel local authorities to Let us make allowances for people: for the shop workers have additional Sunday trading hours that they do not who are desperate for overtime, for the ordinary worker, want. for the unemployed and for the consumer who wants Britain is a nation of many sporting events. The more convenient shopping hours. football and rugby Saturday and the summer Wimbledon The preparation for the Olympics has already shown are just some examples of the many events that attract that we are able to adapt to the pace of change necessary thousands of visitors to the UK from across the globe. to meet the big demands of a major international event. It is important that communities should be able to The royal wedding was a prime example of Britain at its provide the flexibility for such events, so as to maximise best. So far, the major construction work has been on economic gain. It makes little economic sense to make time and on budget, but it is also crucial to get the small basic amenities unavailable to tourists and citizens alike things right. In the run-up to the 2012 games, London during the games. At a time when the Government must has no choice but to adjust. Allowances have already focus on rebuilding the economy, creating jobs and been made for Olympic car lanes, alterations to supermarket boosting the disposable income of our people, we must deliveries and changes to meet carbon emission targets. not waste the unique opportunities that this major 1531 Sunday Trading (Amendment)6 JULY 2011 Sunday Trading (Amendment) 1532 event will provide. What more powerful legacy could 1.37 pm there be than creating opportunities for people to get jobs and earn some money? Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak against the With the retail sector booming in central London, Bill, Mr Speaker. I recognise that the House is keen to having been boosted by foreign tourists, we must ensure move on to the next subject, however, so I shall not that all our shops are able to deal with the increased press the motion to a Division. demand. We must adjust their hours to cope with the fact that many people will stay at home and watch It is perhaps unusual to hear a speech from a woman television because they wish to maximise the hours on a opposing a proposal for more time to shop. I suggest, summer Sunday evening. I wish to give similar opportunities however, that the Bill that my hon. Friend the Member to my constituents in the north-west. One reason for for Fylde (Mark Menzies) is introducing would have this measure is the increase in tourism. The London unintended consequences. He started to make a convincing Olympics are set to be worth at least £100 million in case for extending Sunday hours generally, and I am not extra revenues to the UK retail sector, and we must sure why he is trying to restrict his proposal to the meet this demand. We are not the first nation to face Olympics if he believes that it would be helpful as an this issue. The French Parliament recently passed a economic stimulus. He also said that only the larger measure to give local authorities in popular tourist stores are currently restricted. I encourage him to think destinations the power to extend Sunday trading hours. again about his measure, so that we can once again This is an example of how Sunday trading legislation reinforce the role of small, independent stores or smaller can adapt to meet local demands. high street stores in boosting economic activity. I am committed to preserving the tradition of Sunday My hon. Friend suggested that the provisions would as a family day and ensuring the rights of shop workers. have only a temporary application. I am rather nervous Having worked in the retail sector all my life, I am a about that, because such provisions usually set us on champion of the primary legislation that sets in stone the road to permanent change. He also mentioned new those rights, and it is rightly sacrosanct. No worker employment opportunities, but stores in the Westfield should ever be put in a position of having to work on a shopping centre and similar places will not take on Sunday against their wishes. I believe that there is a real extra shop workers just to deal with an extra 24 hours of need for this temporary economic boost, however, work spread across six Sundays. and that we therefore need to reassess the current provisions. It makes little sense to impose Sunday trading limits on I believe that my hon. Friend’s Bill sends out the shop workers and the retail industry when transport, wrong message. The Olympics will be a once-in-a- pubs and restaurants can be responsive when demand generation—perhaps once-in-a-lifetime—opportunity for arises. everyone in this country to participate in and enjoy. He said that people could not be compelled to work on a This measure is not a radical change. It is a practical, Sunday, but I think he will find that that is no longer temporary tweaking of the common-sense provisions true. I will not press the motion to a vote today, but I that have already been accepted by Parliament in 1994. give him notice that I will oppose the Bill as it passes It is an economic stimulus measure. Certain occasions through its parliamentary stages. demand that shops open for longer on a Sunday. Scotland has been sensible in this regard for many years, and this Question put and agreed to. provision will have only positive benefits for our local Ordered, economies. This move comes at a significant time in the history of our country with the coming of the Olympic That Mark Menzies, Conor Burns, Rehman Chishti, games in 2012. England and Wales have demonstrated Philip Davies, Thomas Docherty, Stephen Gilbert, Daniel that they can adapt to the challenges that major events Kawczynski, Chris Kelly, Andrew Rosindell, Iain Stewart, pose. Let us send a message that Britain is open for James Wharton and Priti Patel present the Bill. business and let us use this opportunity to maximise revenues from tourists. We have shown that we can get Mark Menzies accordingly presented the Bill. the big things right; let us not make the mistake of Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on ignoring the smaller details. Friday 25 November 2011, and to be printed (Bill 217). 1533 6 JULY 2011 1534

Business of the House (Today) Phone Hacking Motion made, and Question proposed, Emergency debate (Standing Order No. 24) That Standing Order No. 54 (Consideration of estimates) be applied to proceedings at this day’s sitting as if paragraph (2) were Mr Speaker: We come now to the emergency debate omitted.—(Sir George Young.) on phone hacking at the News of the World. The House will observe that in light of the level of interest, I have, 1.40 pm at this stage, imposed a seven-minute limit on Back-Bench Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Will the contributions which is scheduled to take effect after the Leader of the House confirm that, because the following contributions from the Front Bench—from the Minister motion will reduce the time available for the estimates and the shadow Minister—and obviously after the opening debates tabled by Select Committees, an opportunity contribution of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris will be provided to debate the Prevent strategy—likely Bryant). I simply make the point that that limit will be to be the one squeezed out today—at a later date? reviewable depending upon the length of early contributions to the debate. The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young): I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for 1.42 pm that question and I can give him that assurance. He is entitled to injury time and it will be provided. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I beg to move, Question put and agreed to. That this House has considered the matter of whether there should be a public inquiry into the phone hacking at the News of the World; and the conduct of the Metropolitan Police Service between 2006 and 2011. At 8.50 am tomorrow, it will be six years since the London bombings, which saw 52 people murdered and 700 injured. Today we hear that the police are investigating whether the mobile phones of several of those who lost family members in those attacks were hacked by the News of the World. One such family member spoke—very movingly, I thought—on the “Today” programme this morning. Another has been in touch with me and there may be several others. In addition, I am told that the police are looking not just at Milly Dowler’s phone and the phones of the families of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, but at the case of Madeleine McCann and of 15-year-old Danielle Jones, who was abducted and murdered in Essex in 2001 by her uncle, Stuart Campbell. The charge sheet is even longer, unfortunately. I am told that the News of the World also hacked the phones of police officers, including those investigating the still unsolved murder of Daniel Morgan. This is particularly worrying considering the collapse of the long-delayed trial of the private investigator, Jonathan Rees, who also worked for newspapers, earlier this year. Scandalously, it also seems that the News of the World targeted some of those police officers who were, at various times, in charge of the investigation into the News of the World itself. We can only speculate, Mr Speaker, on why they would want to do that. These are not just the amoral actions of some lone private investigator tied to a rogue News of the World reporter; they are the immoral and almost certainly criminal deeds of an organisation that was appallingly led and had completely lost sight of any idea of decency or shared humanity. The private voicemail messages of victims of crime should never, ever have become a commodity to be traded between journalists and private investigators for a cheap story and a quick sale, and I know that the vast majority of journalists in this country would agree with that. If we want to understand the complete moral failure here, we need only listen to the words of Mr Glenn Mulcaire himself: “Working for the News of the World was never easy. There was relentless pressure. There was a constant demand for results. I knew what we did pushed the limits ethically. But, at the time, I didn’t understand that I had broken the law at all”. 1535 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1536

To be honest, the ethics are the big issue here, just as “The Metropolitan Police has also confirmed that it does not much as whether the law was broken. The journalists consider that there is anything else substantive in relation to and the private investigators should be ashamed of additional evidence or information that would justify it re-opening what happened. But so, too, should those who ran the the original investigation.”—[Official Report, 14 July 2009; Vol. 496, c. 11WS.] newspaper. It is simply no excuse to say they did not know what was going on. Managerial and executive Uncomfortable though that might be for the police—and, negligence is tantamount to complicity in this case. I possibly, for myself and my right hon. Friend the Member believe that if Rebekah Brooks had a single shred of for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), decency, she would now resign. God knows, if a Minister who was Home Secretary at the time—does that not were in the spotlight at the moment, she would be justify having an investigation of the police performance demanding their head on a plate. at that time? Let me be clear, though. The News of the World is not Chris Bryant: It pains me to say this as well, but the the only magician practising the dark arts. In 2006, the honest truth is that a lot of lies have been told to a lot of Information Commissioner produced a devastating report, people. When police officers tell lies or at least half-truths “What price privacy now?”, which detailed literally to Ministers of the Crown so that Parliament ends up hundreds—in fact, thousands—of dubious or criminal being misled, I think it amounts to a major constitutional acts by journalists or agents of national newspapers: issue for us to face. I hope that there will end up being a illegally obtaining driving licence details, illegal criminal full investigation into that element and that we will records or vehicle registration searches, telephone reverse come to the truth, but at the moment what hangs traces and mobile telephone conversions. He listed 1,218 around is a very dirty smell. We need the Metropolitan instances at the Daily Mail and The Mail on Sunday police to be trusted—not just in London but across the alone, 802 at The People and—I say sadly as a Labour whole of the United Kingdom. That is why we need to Member—681 at the Daily Mirror. Earlier this year, the fight on this issue. new Information Commissioner revealed that many Did the reason that nothing happened have anything patients’ records held by the NHS are far from secure to do with the closeness between the Metropolitan from the prying eyes of journalists. That is the most police and the News of the World? After all, we know private information possible about members of the public. for a fact that Assistant Commissioner Andy Hayman, Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): Does the hon. who was in charge of the investigation into the News of Gentleman agree that I share with him—indeed, I have the World, now works for News International. We know debated it with him across the Floor of the House—an that senior officers were wined and dined by senior appreciation of the Information Commissioner’s excellent News of the World executives at the very time, and report, “What price privacy now?”? Does he also agree occasionally on the very day, when they were making that, regardless of party politics, it is shameful that the key decisions about whether any further investigation Government of the day did not take action when that should proceed against that organisation. And we know report was published in the first place? that the News of the World paid police officers for information. Chris Bryant: I will come on later to make some I say that categorically because, on 11 March 2003, in remarks, with which I hope the hon. Gentleman will the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport, I agree, about how we have all failed in this process. I asked Rebekah Wade, as she then was—Rebekah Brooks, believe that the whole political system has failed in as she now is—whether she had paid police officers for this. I take my own share of the blame for that. I asked information. She said: Rebekah Wade questions about this a long time ago, but in “We have paid the police for information in the past.” the end the whole of the political system in this country I asked: did not take action. Now is our chance to do so. “And will you do it in the future?” Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD) rose— She replied: “It depends.” Andy Coulson, who was sitting next to her, said: Chris Bryant: I am not keen to give way too often, as I “We operate within the code and within the law and if there is a am aware that many others want to speak. clear public interest then we will.” This issue is not just about what went on at the News I said: of the World; it is also about the behaviour of the “It is illegal for police officers to receive payments.” Metropolitan police. In the course of the limited Mr Coulson said: investigation of 2006, which led to the conviction of “No. I just said, within the law.” Glenn Mulcaire and Clive Goodman, the police secured a vast amount of information. They could have—and, I I do not believe that it is possible to pay police officers believe, should have—interrogated that information so “within the law.” That is suborning police officers, it is that it became evidence. They could have approached corruption, and it should stop. all those affected. They could have contacted the mobile In April this year, Rebekah Brooks was asked by the phone companies to ensure their customers were better Chairman of the Select Committee on Home Affairs to protected. Unfortunately, they did none of those things. clarify exactly what she had meant. She replied: “As can be seen from the transcript, I was responding to a Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): My hon. Friend specific line of questioning on how newspapers get information. may recall that as Police Minister at the time, I answered My intention was simply to comment generally on the widely-held an urgent question on 9 July 2009, and put down a belief that payments had been made in the past to police officers. written ministerial statement on 14 July and again on If, in doing so, I gave the impression that I had knowledge of any 21 July in good faith. Included in one of the ministerial specific cases, I can assure you that this was not my intention.” statement was this comment made by the Metropolitan [Laughter.] I see that the Attorney-General himself is police: smiling. 1537 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1538

[Chris Bryant] out that he was setting up the inquiry despite the fact that criminal investigations were still ongoing. My right Even more worryingly, as we discovered only last hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), the night, News International has handed over copies of former Lord Chancellor—and Foreign Secretary, and documents that appear to show that former editor holder of many other posts besides—has received a Andy Coulson authorised a series of payments to police letter about the Gibson inquiry which makes the position officers running into tens of thousands of pounds. That very clear. It states: is News International saying, “Yeah but no but yeah “The Inquiry has not yet started as we are still awaiting the but…” . The truth is, however, that News International conclusion of two related police investigations into the Security was doing it, and cannot be allowed to get away with it. Service and SIS.” I know that the News of the World seems to be hanging None the less, says the letter, “preparatory matters” are Andy Coulson out to dry, but surely the buck stops at in hand. That is precisely what I believe should happen the top, and that is the chief executive. in this case. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I agree Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): The inquiry into with what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Can we also the torture allegations, led by Sir Peter Gibson—himself agree that, in our handling of this matter, we must not a former senior judge—has already been able to do a for a moment prejudice the possibility of successful huge amount of work in private, so that if and when the prosecutions of people who did these things? police investigations and any proceedings that follow it are completed, the public part of the inquiry can start Chris Bryant: As I shall try to prove in my next few immediately. remarks, I think that that is absolutely essential. My hope is that people who committed criminality at the Chris Bryant: I was going to make that point myself. News of the World will end up going to prison. The last thing I want is for the debate, or any inquiry, to hamper The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve) rose— the police investigation or any possible prosecution. I Chris Bryant: I give way to the Attorney-General, in agree with the right hon. Gentleman about that. the hope that he will make the same point as well. Dr Huppert: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? The Attorney-General: The hon. Gentleman has taken the wind out of my sails in one respect. I was going to Chris Bryant: I will not, if Members do not mind. agree with him that it was possible to set up an inquiry. Many others wish to speak. However, I am sure he will appreciate that it becomes I know that there are those who argue that there extremely difficult for an inquiry to take any evidence cannot be a public inquiry during an ongoing while criminal proceedings may still be taking place. investigation—and I noted the Prime Minister’s earlier That is obviously one reason why the Gibson inquiry comments, when he seemed to vacillate in relation to has not yet begun its work, which it was hoped would when that process could or could not start—but I think start at the end of last year. I certainly note the hon. they are wrong. Indeed, I consider it vital for the police Gentleman’s comments about the possibility of setting investigation to be supplemented by a public inquiry. up an inquiry, but it may not make much progress until First, some of the issues that need to be addressed may the criminal investigations are over. not be criminal, but they do strike at the heart of what an ethical code for the media should look like in this Chris Bryant: I am grateful to the Attorney-General country. Secondly, although I have confidence in the for the way in which he has expressed himself. That is, in officers who are conducting the Weeting investigation, I fact, a big concession. I think it important for us to fear that the rug could be pulled from under their feet at make progress, not least because I think that the any moment, and there is no certainty about when their police themselves would like the sword of Damocles to investigations will be completed. By the time they are hang over their necks, so that they know they must done, many of those involved may have left the scene or, proceed and proceed apace. Also, when it comes to an more worryingly, shredded the evidence—or, of course, inquiry—especially in this case—they sometimes have discovered selective amnesia. to look through the historiography of all the different That is why it is vital that an inquiry be set up as soon documentation, and it is important to ensure that that as possible and as soon as practicable, led by a judge is garnered now, privately. with full powers to summon witnesses who must give I see no reason—other than a lack of will, or fear of evidence under oath. Of course the inquiry should not what it might unveil—for the Government not to set up sit in public until the investigations are complete—I an inquiry, establish its terms of reference, and appoint hope that that answers the question asked by the right its membership immediately. hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith)— but an astute judge can easily manage the relationship Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Will between a police investigation and an inquiry, prepare the hon. Gentleman give way? evidence, and secure witnesses without compromising Chris Bryant: I am anxious not to give way too often, any criminal investigation or prosecution. but of course I will give way to the right hon. and I am confident that the Prime Minister agrees with learned Gentleman. that. After all—as was mentioned earlier—a year ago today he announced an inquiry, to be led by Sir Peter Sir Menzies Campbell: I am extremely sympathetic to Gibson, into allegations of the torture of detainees. He the position adopted by the hon. Gentleman, but an appointed two other members to it, and said that he inquiry of the kind that he suggests would necessarily hoped it would start by the end of last year and be require any individual whose interest was affected by it completed within a year. Indeed, he expressly pointed to be legally represented, and any such individual would 1539 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1540 have to be advised that he or she need not answer any other powers in the land to account. We must do that question that might incriminate him or her. Were properly from now on, and this is one such instance. We criminal proceedings to be completed, there would be politicians have colluded for far too long with the no such opportunity for witnesses to refuse to answer media: we rely on them, we seek their favour, and we questions. live and we die politically because of what they write and what they show, and sometimes that means we lack Chris Bryant: I accept the tone of the right hon. and the courage or the spine to stand up when wrong has learned Gentleman’s remarks, but I think that we have occurred. hesitated for too long. It is not that I want to rush to We have let the Press Complaints Commission delude summary justice, but I do want to ensure that justice us into thinking that it is genuinely independent and has ends up being done. Documents could be seized now, a bite that everybody is frightened of. Sometimes, we and material could be tied down. Of course, many may even have fallen for the threats that have been made elements of the form that the inquiry would take need when we have spoken out. I know of several Members to be hammered out, and I suggest that the Prime who have led this debate who have received threats. Minister and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the We have let one man have far too great a sway over Opposition could have fruitful discussions to ensure our national life. At least Berlusconi lives in Italy, but that that is possible. Murdoch is not resident in this country; he does not pay I also believe that we need a public inquiry because tax here and has never appeared before a Select Committee Parliament—which has conducted its own Select Committee of this House. No other country would allow one man inquiries under the excellent chairmanship of the hon. to garner four national newspapers, to be the second Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), Chairman of largest broadcaster, and to have a monopoly on sports the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, and my right rights and first-view movies. America, the home of the hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz)— aggressive entrepreneur, does not allow that, and we has been systematically lied to throughout the process. should not. The list of lies is, I am afraid, endless. Of course the proposed takeover of BSkyB should be News International claimed that the phone hacking put on ice while the police investigation is ongoing. The only started in 2004, but we now know for certain of executive and non-executive directors have completely instances relating to 2003 and 2002. News International failed in their legal duty to tackle criminality in the claimed that it had run a full internal investigation. It is company in question, and it must surely be in doubt, at patently clear that if it did, it hid stuff from the police, least, whether some of them are fit and proper people to and that otherwise it did not. News International claimed run a media company. that it had always helped the police, but only private There are many other questions. Who is paying Glenn civil cases pursued by some brave individuals have Mulcaire’s legal fees now? Is News International forced its hand. paying them? Was Clive Goodman paid off handsomely The police claimed that they had notified all the when he came out of prison? What did Rebekah Wade, victims, and that specifically named people were not Andy Coulson and Les Hinton know, and when did victims. We now know that not all the victims were they know it? Why has so much material suddenly contacted, and that some people who had expressly appeared in News International’s archives? I do not been told that they were not victims were victims. I want to be partisan but there is one remaining question: think that even Assistant Commissioner John Yates did the Prime Minister ever ask Andy Coulson what now accepts that he has misled Parliament because he really went on at the News of the World before he briefed The Independent on Sunday that he was furious appointed him to work, on the taxpayers’ bill, at No. 10 at the “inadequate” and “unprofessional” research of Downing street? those beneath him with the result that some of his I hope that those who broke the law at the News of public statements at the time were at odds with what has the World and those who covered it up will be brought subsequently emerged. I am sorry, but leadership does to justice. I hope the Metropolitan police’s now tarnished not involve the leader being rude about their staff; it reputation will be restored. I hope the victims, especially involves them taking responsibility for what they say to the ordinary members of the public who were targeted, Parliament, and if they have misled Parliament, they will get justice as well. I hope we will all get to know the should resign. truth, but even more importantly than all of this, I hope that the British media, who for so long have had a Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): My hon. Friend was worldwide renown for craftsmanship, for tough intelligence an excellent witness when he came and gave evidence to and for robust investigative journalism, will rediscover the Select Committee on Home Affairs. However, the their true vocation: to bring the truth to light truthfully, point is this: if a witness refuses to appear, it is very honestly, and legally. None of that will happen until we difficult to start the process of getting them before a establish the whole unvarnished truth, and that, I believe, Select Committee. A wider inquiry would have more needs a public inquiry, and it needs it now. powers than even a Select Committee. 2.4 pm Chris Bryant: That is my next sentence. The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): First, Many people out in the wider world may not care may I congratulate the hon. Member for Rhondda much whether Parliament is lied to—although I think (Chris Bryant) on having secured this debate and thank we should—but this House came into existence to hold him, on behalf of the House and on my own behalf, for what was then the sole power in the land, the Crown his courage in raising these matters today? I am absolutely and then the Government, to account. Where we now sure that the whole House shares his anxiety, shock and fail often, and sometimes miserably, is in holding the concern about the allegations that have arisen over the 1541 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1542

[The Attorney-General] The Attorney-General: As the right hon. Lady knows, there are mechanisms for inquiries into the conduct of last couple of days in relation to phone hacking, just as the police to be referred to the Independent Police we share his concern over the past allegations of phone Complaints Commission and for the IPCC to bring in hacking and many of the other matters he raised in his outside police officers to investigate. As for the News of powerful speech. the World, how it wishes to co-operate with the police in The suggestion that has now emerged that the phones their inquiries is entirely a matter for the News of the of Milly Dowler and some of the victims of the 7 July World itself. I would not therefore quite join her in bombings were hacked into must fill any right-thinking saying that the News of the World is investigating itself. person with revulsion, but I hope the hon. Gentleman My understanding is that the News of the World has will forgive me for the fact that, by virtue of being a appointed independent counsel to try to provide— Minister of the Crown, I am of necessity rather more [Interruption.] No, I am sorry, but what the News of the circumscribed in what I can say at this Dispatch Box World chooses to do is a matter for it. than he is in initiating this debate. I must, of necessity, The inquiry that is taking place is a criminal investigation be quite brief, because many of the issues he raised are conducted by the police into serious criminal allegations. of a rather delicate nature in view of the fact that The question as to how that is responded to by any criminal investigations are taking place. I shall come organisation or individual is a matter for them. I draw back to that in a moment. neither assurance nor reassurance from the manner in Phone hacking is a serious crime and, as the House which they choose to do it. will be aware, the courts have previously imposed custodial sentences in two cases where it has occurred. The current Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): The Guardian police investigation is following further evidence, and has alleged today that News International knew of the the most recent allegations, to which we have referred, existence of e-mails detailing payments to the police are being considered as part of that investigation. some time ago. If that is the case, will the Attorney-General tell the House whether Mr Coulson was aware of the It is precisely because of the gravity of the allegations existence of those e-mails before he resigned as the Prime now being made that the Prime Minister announced Minister’s spokesman? If so, did he consult the Prime only a short time ago that there would be a fully Minister or any other Minister? independent public inquiry, or set of inquiries, into these matters, but that must not jeopardise any criminal The Attorney-General: May I respectfully say to the investigation. It is therefore likely that much of the hon. Lady that I am not sure that in my capacity as the work of the inquiry will be able to start only once the Queens’s Attorney-General that is a question to which I police investigation and any prosecutions that might would necessarily have the immediate answer? What I result from it are concluded. I say that while being can say to her is that a series of criminal investigations mindful of the comments that have been made in the are taking place, along with wider inquiry, and the debate that it may be possible to move forward in some Government are committed, as I have just indicated, to areas but not in others. Nevertheless, the burning desire there being an inquiry into the matter. I am sorry to of many people to see finality in this matter and truth to disappoint her but, in any event, I do not think that this be revealed may take some time because of that, as I am is a question that I am in a position to answer. sure the House will appreciate. In the meantime, however, the Government will do all Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): As a former they can to progress matters further, such as by consulting competition Minister, may I ask the Attorney-General on appropriate terms of reference, the composition of whether, in his view, the Culture Secretary has the an inquiry, and whether there should be one inquiry or power, and always has had the power, to refer the News more than one. The House must bear in mind the fact Corp takeover to the Competition Commission? that there are some very different issues to be considered here. The hon. Gentleman has raised issues about the The Attorney-General: Well, may I say to the hon. conduct of the police, for example, and there are also Gentleman that my understanding—I checked this before issues about the conduct of the media. There will therefore the start of the debate—is that my right hon. Friend the doubtless be questions as to whether the consideration Culture Secretary did refer the takeover to the Competition of these issues can best be merged into one inquiry or Commission? should be addressed separately. I merely highlight that point. There is an intention for there to be proper The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media consultation on how to proceed. and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt): I was minded to.

Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): The situation The Attorney-General: He was minded to. As a result now appears to be that News International is investigating of having done so, a series of assurances were provided, News International and the Metropolitan police are which satisfied him. Thereafter, I suggest that the hon. investigating the Metropolitan police. For public confidence, Gentleman refers that question to my right hon. Friend. is there not a case to be made for at least some kind of independent supervision, perhaps by a different police Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Could the force, into the Metropolitan police investigation, so that Attorney-General just tell the House from whom those we can be satisfied that we really are getting to the heart assurances were received? of this matter? I have great confidence in the Met, but they will inevitably know some of the characters involved, The Attorney-General: Those assurances were received so having another police force taking a view would be from News International and were independently validated very helpful. and referred to Ofcom. May I say to the hon. Member 1543 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1544 for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) that we have to have a Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): I little care here? The process by which such a takeover is believe that the Attorney-General is right when, as he done follows what is a quasi-judicial procedure, as he is has done so far, he confines the argument to the question aware. Therefore, in those circumstances, my right hon. of competition. But do not the Government, as the Friend’s options in terms of what he had to do were overall regulating authority, retain a discretion in relation quite severely circumscribed. If the hon. Gentleman to the management of this industry throughout the feels that that was not properly conducted, I suggest United Kingdom? Does not that discretion, for example, that he raise that with my right hon. Friend directly. allow the Government to give consideration as to whether the directors of any company have been fulfilling their Mr Straw: Would the Attorney-General not accept public obligations? that now that the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport is in possession of information The Attorney-General: I have no doubt at all that my relating to the behaviour of News Corp which he could right hon. and learned Friend is correct in what he says, not possibly have been in possession of at the time he and those are matters that can be borne in mind by the made his original decision, it must be open to him, as a Government in reviewing the process of this takeover matter of law, to reconsider his original decision and bid and, indeed, the competition laws underlying it. make the reference that is now sought? Keith Vaz: On the payment of police, which is now in The Attorney-General: My right hon. Friend is sitting the public domain as a result of the release of the next to me and I am sure he will have noted the e-mails last night, have there been any discussions between comments that the right hon. Gentleman has made. He the Home Secretary and the Metropolitan Police will therefore be in a position to respond to them, if he Commissioner about this issue? Is everyone absolutely so wishes. clear that the payment of police officers is a criminal offence? Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): The right hon. and learned Gentleman said, in the middle of a quasi- The Attorney-General: I can assure the right hon. judicial process, that the assurances have satisfied the Gentleman that I think that nobody in this House, or Culture Secretary, so why is he in the middle of a anywhere else, is in any doubt that payments to police consultation process, where he is not meant to have officers—unless they are payments made in relation to a made his mind up yet and is still meant to be open-minded police officer who may have some separate employment, about whether to refer this to the Competition Commission? as happens sometimes—in respect of their duties from If the assurances have satisfied him, the consultation is some extraneous source is illegal. I await any Member a mockery. of this House who might tell me about a circumstance to the contrary but, at the moment, I cannot think of The Attorney-General: My right hon. Friend said that one. he was minded to accept the assurances. He is sitting next to me so he is in a position to note the strong views Dr Huppert: It is a pleasure to follow the Chair of the that the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Select Committee on Home Affairs. Does the Attorney- Blackburn (Mr Straw) have expressed, and I have no General agree that there are real issues not only about doubt that there will be opportunities for him to respond poor behaviour by the media, but about public trust in in due course. the police? Does he also agree that we have to be sure that the police will investigate people regardless of how Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): The Prime powerful they may be and what the consequences may Minister made reference, very correctly, in his answers be, and regardless of whether they have been taking at Prime Minister’s questions this afternoon to due illegal payments from them? That is a serious issue and process. It is clear that he was absolutely correct in it does need an inquiry. making that point. Given that there is clear evidence of serious criminality on the part of some people at News The Attorney-General: If that situation were not occurring International, would not due process also now include, in this country, the rule of law would be undermined, so in any event and without necessarily referring this to the I can assure my hon. Friend that if there was any Competition Commission, calling a pause pending further suggestion that differential rules were being applied evidence? because some people are powerful and some are weak, that would be a very serious matter. The Attorney-General: My hon. Friend makes a perfectly reasonable point. I have no doubt that my right hon. Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Drawing Friend the Secretary of State will be in a position to on his legal knowledge, will the Attorney-General confirm note his comments and reflect carefully on whether that were News International, with its record of the the situation has changed in such a fashion. However, I wrongdoing that it has admitted so far, to apply to run a come back to my original point, which was that minicab firm in London, it would not receive a licence? Ministers of the Crown have to be rather careful about If these are not fit and proper people to run a minicab simply changing decisions on the hoof, in view of the firm, how can they be a fit and proper outfit to take fact that they are under legal obligations in respect of over a monopoly of a whole television channel? the way they take those decisions. With great respect to those who have intervened, whose interventions I am The Attorney-General: As I am sure the right hon. happy to field, the nub of this debate is phone Gentleman will be aware, the question of whether any hacking and not, at this stage, the takeover policies of organisation is a fit and proper person to own a the Government. broadcasting licence is a matter for Ofcom, and not the 1545 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1546

[The Attorney-General] some of the salient facts of the inquiry if we are to have an informed debate. I apologise to him if he feels Secretary of State, under section 3 of the Broadcasting that it is otiose. Act 1990. Indeed, the Secretary of State would not be In those circumstances, the arrests of Glenn Mulcaire allowed to get involved in that matter. and Clive Goodman took place in August 2006 for unlawful interception of phone messages. Searching Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): On Mulcaire’s business premises, police uncovered further the previous occasions these matters were debated in evidence of interception relating to a number of other the House, there were many concerns that constitutional individuals not related to the royal household. As the issues and issues of privilege arose from the potential hon. Member for Rhondda, if not the House, will be hacking of MPs’ telephones. Since that time, the Select aware, Mulcaire and Goodman pleaded guilty— Goodman Committee on Standards and Privileges has considered only to the charges relating to the royal family and this issue and produced its 14th report. In framing the Mulcaire to five further counts relating to individuals in inquiries suggested today, would it be possible to take the public eye—and were sentenced in January 2007 to account of the recommendations of that report, which four months and six months in prison respectively. It is suggest some ways of clarifying this quite difficult situation? worth bearing in mind that although I know of the hon. The Attorney-General: My hon. Friend makes a very Gentleman’s interest in the matter, after January 2007 good point. I have no doubt that that factor, along with matters remained essentially quiet until July 2009, when every single representation made by Members of this the media reported fresh allegations relating to further House on how they think the inquiry or inquiries should cases of phone hacking. be conducted, can be taken into account. The Crown Prosecution Service reviewed the material provided to it by the police in order to satisfy itself that Chris Bryant: The Attorney-General is absolutely appropriate actions had been taken in respect of the right to say that it is not a matter for the Secretary of material. The CPS was satisfied that the prosecution State but for Ofcom to decide whether somebody is a fit approach to charging and prosecution was proper and and proper person, but the whole point is that Ofcom that it would not be appropriate to reopen the cases can have no chance to do so unless there is a pause in against Mr Goodman and Mr Mulcaire. It also concluded the Secretary of State’s decision. We need a pause so that any new information should be reported to the that Ofcom can come to a conclusion at the end of the police for further investigation. police investigation. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): It has been reported The Attorney-General: It is a matter that I am very in the news this afternoon that the former Director of happy to go away and check, but I think the hon. Public Prosecutions, the noble Lord Macdonald, has Gentleman might be mistaken. I think that in fact been appointed by News International to advise it on its Ofcom could intervene at any stage if it were to conclude dealings with the police at this time. Does the Attorney- that somebody was not a fit and proper person to hold a General think that that is appropriate, and has he any broadcasting licence. As these matters can be complex thoughts from the Government on that development? and I would not wish in any way to mislead the House, I would be happy to go away and check that point and to The Attorney-General: As I am not sure that what the write to the hon. Gentleman about it. right hon. Gentleman says is correct, I am not minded Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): I can confirm to comment on it. My understanding of the matter was that I spoke to the chief executive of Ofcom yesterday, that Lord Macdonald had been appointed by News of who told me that Ofcom has the power to intervene at the World to help with the disclosure process to the any stage if it determines that somebody is no longer a police. That is a matter for Lord Macdonald in accordance fit and proper person to own a media organisation. with the professional code of conduct of the Bar. [Interruption.] I can assure the House that I do not The Attorney-General: I am grateful to my hon. Friend think the notes I have just received are necessarily of and that confirms what I already thought. Of course, particular help to me in answering the right hon. that will not prevent me from going away and triple- Gentleman’s question. He raises a perfectly legitimate checking the matter before I write to the hon. Member point, but without knowing—which I do not—the for Rhondda about it. circumstances in which Lord Macdonald might or might not be involved with advising News of the World in this I am conscious that I ought to make progress and I matter, I do not think it is appropriate for me to want to allow time for debate. Because of my rather comment further. limited ability to comment on many of the allegations made, I was going to remind the House of some of the history of this matter. The House will be aware that Mr Hanson: Will the Attorney-General give me an these problems originated in November 2005 when the assurance that he will look into this matter when he Metropolitan police were contacted by the royal household leaves the Chamber today? I, as the then Police Minister, with concerns that voicemails relating to members of made comments in good faith on 14 July of that year the royal family had been intercepted— about the DPP’s approach to the case. It is important that there should be clarity on all issues when we Chris Bryant: We know all this. consider such matters.

The Attorney-General: The hon. Gentleman says from The Attorney-General: I entirely agree with what the a sedentary position that he knows all this. He might right hon. Gentleman says and I am happy to go away know all of it, but it is worth reminding the House of and consider it. As I have said, a lawyer’s involvement in 1547 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1548 any matter must ultimately be reconciled with the in the way they have date back to just before Christmas. professional code of conduct and the question of whether The world is not a perfect place, but I note the rather any conflict of interest exists. Beyond that, I shall write fair comment that the hon. Member for Rhondda made to the right hon. Gentleman when I have had an in opening the debate. The House may need to be opportunity to consider the matter. judgmental about itself in a number of ways, but I Before we were diverted by the subject of Lord rather doubt that it should be selective in how it passes Macdonald, I was mentioning the fact that the media those judgments. In those circumstances, I am satisfied reported fresh allegations in 2009. In November 2010, that the Government have acted properly in the past few the Metropolitan police approached the CPS for advice months in responding to the way this story has developed. about the prospects of bringing further charges. Owing I am also satisfied, and I hope the House is satisfied, to the non-co-operation of witnesses and the lack of that the Prime Minister has responded properly to the further evidence, however, criminal charges could not latest allegations that have emerged today. be brought. The Metropolitan police asked the News of the World for any new material in January of this year. Helen Jones: The Attorney-General is telling the House that we must await the outcome of the inquiries Following developments in the civil courts, the CPS into these allegations, and I absolutely accept that, but then agreed to review everything the Metropolitan police if that is the case why are the Government going ahead have in their possession to ascertain whether there was with allowing News Corp to take over BSkyB when any material that could form evidence in any future there are allegations of serious wrongdoing and criminality criminal prosecution for phone hacking. On 26 January against it? Surely the Government should wait for the this year, in view of the seriousness of the allegations outcome of the inquiries before they proceed. and the fresh information that had come to light, the Metropolitan police announced a new investigation. The Attorney-General: At the risk of repeating what I That investigation, Operation Weeting, is led by Deputy said earlier, the takeover process is a legal one and my Assistant Commissioner Sue Akers of the specialist right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, crime directorate, which is an entirely different unit Olympics, Media and Sport will, I have no doubt, within the Metropolitan police from that which carried receive legal advice about the proper way to conduct out the original investigation in 2006. that process. I also have no doubt that he is listening The Metropolitan police now have 45 experienced and will listen to the representations being made today police officers working on the case, which illustrates and the anxieties being expressed on the matter. Beyond how seriously they are taking this new investigation. It that it would not be proper for me to go. is precisely because of the new investigation that new information is progressively coming to light that is the Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): subject on which the debate requested by the hon. The hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) said Member for Rhondda has been based. As the Prime that Ofcom can intervene at any point with regard to Minister has said, the police must be allowed to pursue the fit-and-proper-person test, but will the Attorney-General their criminal investigation in the most vigorous way give guidance on whether, in applying that test, Ofcom they can to get to the truth. I simply say to the House should take into account the ongoing allegations about that that is one reason why Ministers will not be making phone hacking? If it cannot take those allegations into pronouncements in detail on some of the matters that account, will he give guidance on how it should regard the hon. Member for Rhondda has raised. the phone hacking issue? It is right to point out, as the hon. Gentleman has done, that quite a large number of inquiries have been The Attorney-General: If Ofcom’s role is entirely taking place. We have a CPS review, we have the police independent of Government, I do not think I am the pursuing their investigations, we have had a number of person who should provide it with my opinion on the activities by the Select Committee on Standards and matter, or the notion of independence is going to be Privileges and we have also had work done by the Select rather lost. Committee on Culture, Media and Sport. I hope that the House may derive from all that some reassurance John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD) rose— that the issues surrounding these allegations are being taken very seriously. I take them very seriously and it is The Attorney-General: I really wish to bring my remarks essential that no stone should be left unturned in ensuring to an end. that anyone who is guilty of any criminal offence is brought to justice and that the public are provided, at Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): the end of day, with the truth about has happened and Will the Attorney-General give way? about the lessons needed to ensure that there is no repetition in future. The Attorney-General: Yes, of course I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman. Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab): May I ask the Attorney-General a Sir Gerald Kaufman: The Attorney-General says that simple question? Why did it take so long for these issues the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and to be taken seriously? Sport will no doubt receive legal advice, but does he agree that his right hon. Friend is not bound by that The Attorney-General: May I make a couple of remarks? legal advice and that as the Secretary of State he has the This Government have been in office since May 2010 right, in his quasi-judicial position, to make his own and these matters clearly originated some time prior to decisions? There is a book about this if the Attorney- that. Moreover, I simply point out that the issues reviving General wants to read it. 1549 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1550

The Attorney-General: I am sure that my right hon. been allowed to happen in modern newspapers and stay Friend the Secretary of State is very well advised and hidden for so long. They want to know how this could will note the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. In have been tolerated and how people could have turned a order to be equal in my approach, I now give way to the blind eye. They want to know whether journalists interfered hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming). with or put at risk criminal investigations, how victims and their families could ever have been so appallingly John Hemming: In the interests of preventing this treated and, of course, why these allegations were not from happening again, I should like to know whether sufficiently investigated at an earlier stage. the Attorney-General shares my concern that the editors code contains no demand for people to know the basis Nicholas Soames: May I make to the right hon. Lady on which information that has been bought has been the same point as I made to the hon. Member for obtained or to ensure that it has not been obtained Rhondda (Chris Bryant)? The 2006 report of the through criminal acts. Information Commissioner was quite clearly a harbinger of what was going on, but no one in the Government—or, The Attorney-General: The hon. Gentleman raises an indeed, in the House—appeared to pay any attention to interesting point that can no doubt be looked at by it. Surely, the lesson is that this rot has been in the editors and by the Press Complaints Commission. system for a very long time, and it is terrible that the I wish to conclude simply by saying that these allegations House did nothing about it. are very grave. In my role as Attorney-General, I have the rather curious title of “guardian of the public Yvette Cooper: The hon. Gentleman is right to say interest”, and I have absolutely no doubt that the public those words to all Members of the House, and to all interest will be served only if these matters are fully members of this and former Governments, too. I have inquired into and if those who have committed or are talked to Opposition Members, who have made it clear alleged to have committed criminal offences and are that the inquiry for which we are calling must look at all seen to have a prima facie case against them are brought historical issues. He is right that there were warning to justice. That will require some forbearance on the signs. As I did at the beginning of my speech, I pay part of the House in its desire to see a conclusion to this tribute to the fact that some parliamentarians picked matter and I ask the House to bear that in mind. With this up, but we all need to look at what is happening and that, I simply reiterate my thanks to the hon. Member why too many people turned a blind eye to the problem, for Rhondda for the manner in which he presented the or did not focus on the sheer horror of what was debate. happening for too long. Let us be clear about the current criminal investigation. 2.36 pm We have seen some vigour and rigour in recent months, Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) which must continue, as the investigation needs to look (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for into the heart of the darkness. Where criminal activity Rhondda (Chris Bryant) on securing today’s very serious has been committed, it must pursue robust prosecutions debate and on his forensic analysis of the problems and and deliver justice too. We must not jeopardise those the work that he and others in Parliament have done to investigations with what we say in this debate or with pursue this issue with vigour. The whole House will the details of any inquiry. It is for the police and the want to pay tribute to their work and determination. courts to determine the veracity of the allegations, but it is for Parliament to make sure that they can do so, The events of the past few days have sent shockwaves that they are doing so, and to address the wider issues. across the nation. With every hour that passes we hear more deeply disturbing allegations such as the claims Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): Now that we know that private investigators paid by the News of the World that members of the public have been targeted, does my hacked into the phone of the missing 13-year-old Milly right hon. Friend agree that it is essential that they Dowler and erased some of her messages in the search receive special support? If they require legal aid, the for a story, thereby giving her parents false hope. There Lord Chancellor should ensure that they receive it. are also claims that other bereaved parents, including the Chapman family, Sara Payne and Graham Foulkes, Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend makes an important were similarly targeted. We will not know the truth point, because many people who might be troubled behind each of those allegations until the criminal might not be in the position of some individuals who investigation is complete, and of course we in this have pursued civil actions to seek legal advice. It is House must not prejudice the investigations or any important that that is looked at urgently, both by the potential trials that must take place, but we can say, Ministry of Justice and by the Attorney-General. very loudly and clearly, that the very idea of targeting We need to know urgently whether the actions of victims and their families in their darkest hour is shameful, journalists and private investigators have interfered with sickening and cruel. police investigations, not just in the cases of Milly This is not just about invasion of privacy: it is about Dowler and of Daniel Morgan but in other cases, too. the violation of victims and their families at a time Alongside the Met inquiry, in advance of the wider when we know that there are doubts about the way in public inquiry, we ask the Attorney-General, the CPS which our society and our justice system more widely and chief constables to review other high-profile cases treat victims and their families. That is why people across the country that have provoked media attention. across the country are rightly angry and want answers. It is important that people are reassured that those For a start, this means that the current Met criminal investigations have not been interfered with, or are told investigation needs to be forensic and furious in the whether further criminal investigations need to take pursuit of truth. People want to know the truth about place in a wider range of cases than those that are being what happened. They want to know how it could have pursued by the Met. 1551 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1552

Hazel Blears: I shall put the same point to my right I spoke to the commissioner today. He told me that hon. Friend as I put to the Attorney-General. The Met he believes that a public inquiry is not only inevitable is investigating previous unsatisfactory investigations but it is the right thing to do. He said that the police by the Metropolitan police, so, despite our confidence should be held to account. It is important for the in the investigators, does she agree that if the public are inquiry to cover those issues. Ministers should reflect to share our confidence independent police forces should on the specialist role that police officers, the IPCC and perhaps supervise some of the investigations? Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary will play in ensuring a proper investigation. Yvette Cooper: I want to come on to the police investigation. The investigation to which the Attorney- Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): General referred is not looking at what happened in the Did the Metropolitan Police Commissioner indicate first investigation—it is pursuing criminal investigations. whether he had made a referral to the IPCC, or has that My right hon. Friend is absolutely right that there is a not happened yet? further question about what happened in that first investigation, and who needs to look at that and undertake Yvette Cooper: As I understand it from my conversation a searching inquiry into the nature of the problems that with the commissioner this morning, the Met has indeed arose. There is a role, for example, for the Independent made a referral to the IPCC about the allegations that Police Complaints Commission to make sure that there police officers received payments. That has been discussed is a proper, independent investigation. with the IPCC, whose conclusion—again, as I understand Members on both sides of the House agree that there it from my conversation this morning—is that the current are wider issues at stake and that there is a case for a full investigation by the Met should continue, but it is public inquiry. There are wider questions about the keeping that under review. It is important that we have culture that could allow the alleged events at the News that independent investigation. There is a wider question of the World to take place and to be tolerated; about about safeguards in the system on which we will want to wider media practices and ethical conduct; and about reflect, given that individual investigations may go awry the effectiveness of the current Press Complaints or may not reach the conclusions that they need to Commission arrangements. Members on both sides of reach. I do not think that that role will be fulfilled by the House have a responsibility to safeguard the right of the police and crime commissioners proposed by the our media to report freely on all aspects of society, to Government, because that would create greater risks in hold Members of Parliament to account, and to scrutinise such cases in future. in detail the work that we do in the public interest. The The police do vital and excellent work, solving crimes, vast majority of journalists and editors are committed bringing offenders to justice, and supporting families of to maintaining the highest ethical standards, but, as my murder victims and others. It is important that that hon. Friend the Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis) work is not undermined or discredited as the result of said, alongside freedom comes responsibility. any lack of transparency over the phone-hacking Press self-regulation is important, but the press must revelations. We must recognise that any areas where make it work. In January, the editor of the Financial Times things have gone wrong must be put right. accused the Press Complaints Commission of being Before turning to the case for the public inquiry and “supine at best in its response to the hacking scandal.” what it should consider, may I respond briefly to the The PCC’s record on investigating phone hacking has points made by the Attorney-General about whether a indeed been one of failure. referral should be made to the Competition Commission? He will know that we have continually called for such a Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): The right referral, as we believe that it is the right thing to do. I hon. Lady is quite right—a free press is the cornerstone hope that the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, of democracy, but democracy relies on the press being Media and Sport, who is in the Chamber, and the accountable. The system of regulation has failed utterly. Attorney-General will reflect carefully on the points Is it not time for a new one, and will she support that that have been made by Members on both sides of the proposal? House about the flexibility within the law to look at the issue again, and recognise the importance of the need, Yvette Cooper: That was the point I was making. The for which we have argued from the beginning, for referral existing PCC arrangements have not delivered. The to the Competition Commission. I would simply say press should try to make self-regulation work, and that that judgments must be fair, but it is also important that issue should be dealt with as part of the inquiry, because they are seen to be fair and that the public have confidence it is important to restore public confidence across the in them. country in the way in which the media operate, in their The Prime Minister agreed today that there should be independence and in their trustworthiness. an inquiry or inquiries into these issues. At the end of There are questions, too, for the police. The Metropolitan the Attorney-General’s speech, he referred to a number Police Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson stated yesterday: of inquiries that were already under way and tried to “It is inevitable...that questions will be asked about the parameters give us some assurance that that meant that these of the original investigation but also more widely about the matters were being taken seriously. He knows, however, regulatory role of the Press Complaints Commission and others.” that the number of inquiries that have taken place or He is right, and there are three questions to answer. are taking place now gives no such reassurance. Quite First, were payments made by the media to individual the opposite is true because so many inquiries have not officers—which is clearly illegal and corrupt? Secondly, got to the truth in the past. Whether those were inquiries was there a wider relationship between the newspapers by the PCC or by parliamentary Committees, they were and police? Thirdly, why did the first investigation not not able to get to the bottom of the truth about what reach the truth and uncover what was happening? had been happening. 1553 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1554

The Attorney-General: I understand the right hon. of the chief executive of News International, nothing Lady’s point, but I think she slightly misunderstood the can undermine the need for a public inquiry? We must point I was making. I was referring not just to that, but have that inquiry, whatever happens. to the Prime Minister’s statement today. There is a full appreciation, which has grown over time, that this is a Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend is right, because of serious issue—[Interruption.] Steps have been taken to the wide ranging nature of the issue and the importance try to deal with it. I have to say to the Leader of the of restoring confidence. It is important that we know Opposition that if his Government had been troubled which Minister will be in charge of making those decisions when they were in office, they could have taken steps and setting up the inquiry. We had assumed that it between 2006 and 2010 to do something about this. would be the Home Secretary or the Secretary of State Throughout my comments today I avoided making any for Culture, Media and Sport. There is clearly a question criticism of the way the previous Government acted, about whether the latter is able to do that alongside his and I think his remarks from a sedentary position are other responsibilities on the wider issues in relation to entirely uncalled for. the Competition Commission. Yvette Cooper: I respect the spirit in which the Attorney- The Attorney-General needs to consider the Prime General made his speech, but warn him against any Minister’s role. The Prime Minister’s judgment has already complacency about the number of inquiries solving the been called into question by his appointment of Andy issue. The key is whether the overall public inquiry that Coulson as his media adviser, despite the fact that there looks into the matter has sufficient powers and the right had long been allegations of illegal practices and remit and can truly get to the heart of what has been wrongdoing at the News of the World on his watch. happening. Today it is alleged that e-mails expose direct payments from the News of the World to the police that were Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. known about by Andy Coulson. There are also claims Although the Culture, Media and Sport Committee circulating today that Andy Coulson was told about or and the Home Affairs Committee have been conducting knew about these e-mails and that this is why he resigned inquiries they, by their nature and the nature of the in January. If so, that is extremely serious. Select Committee system, monitor Departments. What The e-mails were passed to the Metropolitan police is needed is an over-arching inquiry. I have discussed only on 20 June, even though the inquiry and the full informally with the Chairman of the Culture, Media co-operation of News International had supposedly and Sport Committee the possibility of setting up a started on 26 January. Was Andy Coulson aware of this, joint inquiry between our two Committees, but that will and did he tell the Prime Minister or anyone else in not be enough. There needs to be something that covers No. 10 about those e-mails? If he did, it would mean all bases dealing with this very important subject. that the Prime Minister and members of the Government Yvette Cooper: My right hon. Friend is exactly right. were aware of the information before the Metropolitan His Committee has done some extremely important work police. It is important that the Prime Minister provides in pursuing these issues and will, I know, continue to some immediate answers in response to this question. do so. The Attorney-General and the Cabinet Secretary should It is important that the inquiry has the power not advise whether the Prime Minister should now remove only to compel witnesses, but to get to the heart of the himself from any decision making about the public information, get detailed answers and examine a range inquiry. It is clear that the conduct of one of the Prime of interconnecting issues that are at stake. My right Minister’s employees and colleagues is a substantive hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has set out issue not just for the criminal investigation but for the some of the areas that we believe the inquiry must wider inquiry. The inquiry needs to be impartial and to cover—for example, the unlawful practices, including inspire confidence. It cannot be compromised by any phone hacking, that appear to have been prevalent in perception of partiality in its establishment by the Ministers sections of the newspaper industry, the ethical conduct who are in charge of the decisions. and standards of the industry, the nature of robust and This inquiry is so important because it goes to the credible regulation, and the relationship between the heart of our democracy and our society. The inquiry is police and the newspaper industry. not about a row between Parliament and the media, or We have asked the Government to decide now the Parliament and the police; quite the reverse. It is exactly nature and scope of the inquiry and to choose now who because the media—the fourth estate— play such a vital should take that forward to get the team established in role in our democracy that they must be accountable, place as soon as is practical, without waiting for criminal with clear and ethical standards. It is exactly because proceedings to be complete, as the Gibson inquiry has independent, impartial policing is so essential to our done. I welcomed the Government’s agreement that it is democracy that the police must be accountable and possible to consider whether elements can be examined transparent if things go wrong. It is the result of work in advance of the criminal investigation being completed. in Parliament and by parliamentarians that we have Nobody wants to put that criminal investigation at risk, secured the principle of a public inquiry now. but equally it seems at first sight that some elements could be investigated and explored at an earlier stage, Parliament must press further, not just to seek truth, rather than having to wait until the end of the process. not just to restore the effectiveness and credibility of We need to know which Minister will be in charge of parts of the newspaper industry, not just to get justice, those discussions and considerations. but to say on behalf of everyone in this country, “We will not stand for the shameful and cruel practices that Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): we have seen. We will stand as a Parliament against Does my right hon. Friend agree that whatever happens these shocking practices. It is not the kind of country in the next few days, including the potential resignation we want to be. We will stand on the side of those—especially 1555 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1556 the crime victims and their families—who should never investigative reporter. We asked that Ross Hindley, the have found themselves dragged into this terrible debate junior reporter who had transcribed the voicemail intercepts, today. We must make sure this never happens again.” should appear, but were told that he could not come because he was in Peru. We were told that there had Mr Speaker: Order. The seven-minute limit on Back- been a thorough investigation by outside solicitors and Bench speeches starts now. that no evidence had been unearthed to suggest that phone hacking had been any more widespread. 2.58 pm Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): Does Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): I rise to the hon. Gentleman agree that one important issue that speak in the debate with considerable sadness. I am a a public inquiry will have to navigate is the fact that no passionate believer in the freedom of the press, but like one so far has been cross-examined in either a criminal other freedoms, that freedom must be exercised within or a civil court, as settlements have been reached in all the rule of law. Many of us here were appalled when we the civil cases? Indeed, in the Gordon Taylor case the discovered, in the course of the expenses scandal, what court ordered the files to be sealed, and Sienna Miller is a small number of Members of the House had done. the latest victim of phone hacking to settle. As a result, They were rightly prosecuted and several have now we have not yet got to the bottom of this. gone to prison, but that scandal tainted all of us. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) referred to the fact that journalists throughout the country are Mr Whittingdale: I entirely agree with the hon. equally appalled at the revelations that have come out Gentleman—indeed, I can call him my hon. Friend, as about the activities of some members of their profession, a fellow member of the Select Committee. I think that and they too feel that they have been tainted by them. an inquiry should be able to investigate any documents that are relevant to this matter. The latest revelations mark a low point in the saga of phone hacking, but I fear they do not mark the end During the Committee’s inquiry I again spoke with point. There are likely to be further revelations still to Mr Crone, the legal manager, and asked: come. The matter was first looked at by the Culture, “As far as you know, no information regarding those other Media and Sport Committee in early 2007, following individuals ever reached the News of the World?” the conviction of Clive Goodman and Glenn Mulcaire. He replied: At that time I asked the chairman of News International, “I have seen no evidence of that.” Les Hinton: Mr Coulson said in evidence that during his editorship “You carried out a full, rigorous internal inquiry, and you are he absolutely convinced that Clive Goodman was the only person who knew what was going on?” “never condoned the use of ’phone hacking and nor do I have any recollection of incidences where ’phone hacking took place. My Mr Hinton replied: instructions to the staff were clear: we did not use subterfuge of “Yes, we have and believe he was the only person, but that any kind unless there was a clear public interest in doing so; they investigation, under the new editor, continues.” were to work within the PCC Code at all times.” The Committee produced a report which stated: The Committee stated in its report: “We note the assurances of the Chairman of News International “Evidence we have seen makes it inconceivable that no-one else that Mr Goodman was acting wholly without authorisation and at the News of the World, bar Clive Goodman, knew about the that Mr Coulson had no knowledge of what was going on.” phone-hacking…The newspaper’s enquiries were far from ‘full’ or In July 2009 The Guardian reported that News ‘rigorous’, as we—and the PCC—had been assured. Throughout International had paid Gordon Taylor and two others our inquiry, too, we have been struck by the collective amnesia more than £1 million because their phones had been afflicting witnesses from the News of the World.” hacked, which led the Committee to believe that we Since that time there have been a stream of revelations, might have been misled. We therefore decided to reopen and it has become increasingly clear that phone hacking our inquiry.Early in those inquiries The Guardian produced was widespread and involved a large number of people. two pieces of evidence: one was the so-called “for Most of that evidence, certainly in the early stages, Neville” e-mail, which contained the transcripts of came from the material seized by the police from Glenn 35 voicemail messages between Gordon Taylor and his Mulcaire, which they were required to divulge only legal adviser; the other was a contract between Glenn when the civil cases came to court and they were asked Mulcaire, under a false name, and Greg Miskiw, a to do so by the solicitors acting on behalf of the people senior executive at the News of the World. We felt bringing civil cases. The key point is that almost every strongly that both pieces of evidence suggested that piece of evidence we are now learning about has been in Clive Goodman was not the rogue reporter that we had the possession of the police since 2006. That raises very been told about. serious questions about why it was not pursued, and The Committee took evidence from Tom Crone, the why we were told repeatedly that the evidence did not legal manager of News Group Newspapers, Colin Myler, exist, and why the police assured us that there was no the editor of the News of the World, Stuart Kuttner, the evidence to suggest that the investigation should go any newspaper’s managing editor, and Andy Coulson, its further. former editor. We asked whether Rebekah Brooks would All phone hacking is wrong and illegal, but there is appear before us, but she said she had had no involvement no question but that the revelations that the phone of with the News of the World when the phone hacking Milly Dowler was hacked, if that was the case, represent was taking place, which was the case, as she was editor a new low, as do the subsequent revelations about the of The Sun at the time. We asked Neville Thurlbeck to victims of the 7 July bombings and their families, and appear but were told that doing so would reveal what he other murdered children. The truth of these matters is looked like, and so compromise his position as an still not wholly clear and there is an ongoing police 1557 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1558

[Mr Whittingdale] Rebekah Brooks was present at a meeting with Scotland Yard when police officers pursuing a murder investigation investigation, which nothing must be allowed to impede. provided her with evidence that her newspaper was We need to know whether the allegations are true—and interfering with the pursuit of justice. They gave her the if they are, who commissioned those phone hacks and name of another senior executive at News International, who else knew about it. Alex Marunchak. At the meeting, which included Dick There is a swirl of rumour about who might or might Fedorcio of the Metropolitan police, she was told that not have had their phones hacked, and there are also News of the World staff were guilty of interference and rumours about other newspapers. I must say that I suspect party to using unlawful means to attempt to discredit a that, just as Clive Goodman was not a rogue reporter, police officer and his wife. so the News of the World was not a rogue newspaper. Rebekah Brooks was told of actions by people whom We need to get to the full facts. There needs to be a full she paid to expose and discredit David Cook and his inquiry, and the police, the Press Complaints Commission wifeJackieHaines,sothatMrCookwouldbeprevented and the press as a whole need to be held to account. from completing an investigation into a murder. News 3.6 pm International was paying people to interfere with police officers and was doing so on behalf of known criminals. Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): News We know now that News International had entered the International’s decision to throw Andy Coulson to the criminal underworld. wolves last night was an attempt to divert us from an even bigger wrong: that company was systematically, Rebekah Brooks cannot deny being present at that ruthlessly, and without conscience or morality, interfering meeting when the actions of people whom she paid with the phones of victims of murder, cruelly deceiving were exposed. She cannot deny now being warned that their families and impeding the search for justice. Glenn under her auspices unlawful tactics were used for the Mulcaire has accepted some share of responsibility for purpose of interfering with the pursuit of justice. She this moral sickness, but the editor in charge of him cannot deny that one of her staff, Alex Marunchak, was refuses to take responsibility. Indeed, far from accepting named and involved. She cannot deny either that she blame, she has—amazingly—put herself in charge of was told by the police that her own paper was using the investigation into the wrongdoing; the chief suspect unlawful tactics, in that case to help one of her lawbreaking has become the chief investigator. investigators. This, in my view, shows that her culpability goes beyond taking the blame as head of the organisation; Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I, like many Members it is about direct knowledge of unlawful behaviour. Was of the House, have run an organisation. Sometimes in Mr Marunchak dismissed? No. He was promoted. organisations things go wrong and there are faults that might not be the fault of the person running it—but it is Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Twenty-two certainly their responsibility, and responsibility goes years ago, my city warned anyone who would listen that right to the top. Rebekah Brooks is responsible for what scurrilous rags such as The Sun were out of control, has happened. If she does not resign, the person above after it printed blatant lies about the Hillsborough her should understand that it is his responsibility to— disaster. News International lied to the country in 1989, and it still seems to be lying to the country now. Does Mr Speaker: Order. I respect the hon. Gentleman’s my hon. Friend agree that the Government should sincerity and integrity, but interventions must be brief ensure that it does not take 22 years to put right this from now on, as otherwise we will find it very difficult latest wrong? to make progress. Mr Watson: I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman, Mr Watson: I agree, and, just as the people of Liverpool and thank him for his brave contribution. I believe that no longer buy The Sun, thousands of people have Rebekah Brooks was not only responsible for wrongdoing, joined a Facebook group to boycott—along with but knew about it. The evidence in the paper that she advertisers—the News of the World. I am sure that edited contradicts her statements that she knew nothing people watching this debate will consider that fact. about unlawful behaviour. Take the edition that she edited on 14 April 2002, which reveals that the News of Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): the World had information from Milly Dowler’s phone. My hon. Friend will be aware that there are people In other words, they knew about the messages on her currently serving prison sentences in this country, none phone. They wrote that there was more so than Tommy Sheridan, the former MSP. That successful prosecution was based on evidence from “left a message on her voicemail after the 13-year-old vanished at 4pm on March 21. On march 27th, six days after Milly went Andrew Coulson, but it now seems that the jury did not missing in Walton-on-Thames, Surrey, the employment agency get all the e-mails that were pertinent to the case. If that appears to have phoned her mobile.” is true, surely the appropriate authorities should revisit It was a central part of the paper’s story that it had the case and ask Mr Coulson whether that evidence and evidence from a telephone—evidence that it could get that information were withheld intentionally. only from breaking into that phone at the time. The story that Rebekah Brooks was far from the Dowler Mr Watson: I cannot answer my hon. Friend fully, events is simply not believable when her own newspaper because of the time restrictions. I will reveal more on wrote about the information that it had gained from the issue later in the week, except to say that I think the that phone. Sheridan trial was unsound and may need revisiting. I want to inform the House of further evidence that Families who trusted Rebekah Brooks when she said suggests that Rebekah Brooks knew of the unlawful she felt their pain, families who have been cruelly let tactics of the News of the World as early as 2002, despite down by the intrusion into private grief and the callous all her denials yesterday. exploitation of their suffering—anguished families, 1559 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1560 indeed—are now being tortured yet again by the knowledge public inquiries to answer. If there is a robbery, three that in the world of Rebekah Brooks no one can grieve sorts of people are involved: the people who are visibly in private, no one can cry their tears without surveillance, involved; the people who commission the robbery and no one can talk to their friends without their private benefit from the proceeds, although we never see them; feelings becoming public property. and the people who know all about the robbery but try The whole board of News International is responsible to pretend that they do not. for the company.Mr James Murdoch should be suspended The inquiries and the police investigations must go to from office while the police investigate what I believe is all those people, because it is no good picking off the his personal authorisation to plan a cover-up of this small guys, the guys who are pushed out to do the jobs, scandal. Mr James Murdoch is the chairman. It is clear when the decisions have been clearly taken by the big now that he personally, without board approval, authorised guys—or in this case, the big girls. We need to ensure, money to be paid by his company to silence people who therefore, that we encourage the police to be absolutely had been hacked, and to cover up criminal behaviour ruthless in investigating everything that may have happened, within his organisation. That is nothing short of an and to give our full support to the new commissioner attempt to pervert the course of justice. and his team now carrying out the inquiry. There is now no escape for News International from There is an obvious second set of questions. The the responsibility for systematically breaking the law, Metropolitan police did not do a good job in 2006, and but there is also now no escape from the fact that it they probably did not start back in 2002, when the sought to pervert the course of justice. issues appear to have come to light. When the investigation I believe that the police should also ask Mr James took place into the murder of Stephen Lawrence, Murdoch and Rebekah Brooks whether they know of institutional racism was discovered in the Met police. I the attempted destruction of data at the HCL storage am not alleging that there is institutional corruption in facility in Chennai, India. Mr James Murdoch and the Met police, but it has been widely known for years Rebekah Brooks now have to accept their culpability, that there has been regular corruption on such issues in and they will have to face the full force of the law. the Met police and in other police forces. Their behaviour towards the most vulnerable, their The very fact that the Information Commissioner knowledge of lawbreaking and their failure to act, their produced a report in 2006, instancing how often and in links with the criminal underworld and their attempt to how many papers such practices were going on, makes cover up lawbreaking and to pay for people’s silence, tell it absolutely clear that there has been an endemic problem the world all we need to know about their character—that in policing, with payments involving the police and they are not fit and proper persons to control any part people acting illegally in order to get stories, and with of the media in this country. collaboration outside the public gaze. That is why I do not think it would be appropriate for another police service to investigate the Met, although I heard what 3.15 pm the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) Blears) said in her intervention. There has to be an (LD): I was asked in 2006 to collaborate with the first inquiry that is absolutely free of the police service, and police inquiry, because I had been one of the victims of is led by somebody who is entirely independent. In my hacking. I collaborated and gave evidence, and I was view, that person has to be a judge. The inquiry must very pleased that it resulted in the conviction of two have the power to call all evidence and to require people people for clearly illegal activity. I am collaborating to attend and answer questions, and it must be completely currently with the police in their second inquiry, which fearless. is of course ranging much more widely. I accept the argument that it may be possible for an I have said this in the House before, but I am clear inquiry to begin now with activities that will not compromise that from the beginning the issue has not been principally the police investigation. I am also absolutely clear that about whether politicians, the royal family or celebrities the police must be allowed to get on and complete their have had their phones hacked, but about whether ordinary investigation, produce the evidence and go to the Crown members of the public have had their privacy invaded Prosecution Service, so that charges can be brought and by people much more powerful than them. It has been prosecutions made. about people who have not had the opportunity to speak for themselves or to command the airwaves in Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): return. Does the right hon. Gentleman not accept that although the public investigative processes that he is describing I thought it bad enough that families, friends and are absolutely necessary, we have a body that has the constituents had had their information picked over, and professional competence and capacity to investigate I know from experience that it severely affected the police actions? It is right that the Metropolitan Police career and health of one friend, but we now realise that Commissioner has today referred certain matters to it was much worse than that, because it has been about that body. not just ordinary members of the public doing ordinary jobs, but people at their most vulnerable and traumatised. Simon Hughes: Yes, that body exists and I do not cavil They have been exploited purely in the interests of a at its independence. However, given the extent of the media story, so I, like every Member, join in the expressions clear corruption in this case, the length of time over of revulsion by the Prime Minister, the Leader of the which these practices have continued and the huge Opposition and all colleagues. It is the most unacceptable public interest, it is logical to have the sort of inquiry of behaviour. that was held on the Stephen Lawrence case and others, Given the acceptance that there should be inquiries, which goes beyond the Independent Police Complaints we should make clear the questions that we need the Commission. 1561 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1562

Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): Given what we I am conscious of the points that the Attorney-General have been told about the extent of the police and media made. I was a Home Secretary in the previous connection, and about the way in which many stories Administration. In looking for a public inquiry, we have appeared in the press with incredible speed the very next to explain to the House a little about the atmospherics day, thanks to those tip-offs, does my right hon. Friend when the previous Administration took decisions, and agree that the public will be satisfied with nothing less did not take decisions, relating to this case. I am conscious than what he is recommending? that of the four Home Secretaries between 2005 and 2010, I am the only one still in this House. I wish I could Simon Hughes: I agree. give an eloquent explanation of how brilliant I was as a Another issue is the future of the companies involved Home Secretary that would give people an insight into and their interrelationship. I have no criticism of the why I did not act, but I cannot. way in which the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, What I can say is that in July 2009, when the revelation Media and Sport has carried out his inquiries into was made about Gordon Taylor on the front page of competition in the British media industry. However, as The Guardian, we looked at the matter carefully. Like all the shadow Home Secretary and others have implied, good Secretaries of State, I got another Minister, my there is a separate issue, which is about “fit and proper right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), persons”. That is to do with the regulation of the to answer the urgent question, while I did other things. media. Ofcom, the regulator, is based in my constituency. There was not much that we could do beyond asking The rules are clear and I have checked them with Ofcom the Metropolitan Police Commissioner John Yates and today. Under section 3(3) of the Broadcasting Act 1990, others whether there was anything behind the story. The Ofcom atmospherics—the public mood and the mood in “shall not grant a licence to any person unless they are satisfied Parliament—said that this was an obsession of one that he is a fit and proper person to hold it; and…shall do all that newspaper. While we are criticising the press, let us they can to secure that, if they cease to be so satisfied in the case of any person holding a licence, that person does not remain the praise The Guardian for doggedly staying on this case, holder of the licence”. despite all the attempts to stop it. We might also mention Ofcom therefore has an ongoing duty to be satisfied The New York Times in dispatches. We were told that that those at BSkyB are fit and proper persons to hold a this was the obsession of one newspaper and a few broadcasting licence. Back-Benchers. I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and for West For the avoidance of doubt, I think it is appropriate Bromwich East (Mr Watson) for continuing to be irritants for Ofcom to be formally requested to consider whether on this issue. BSkyB is a company whose directors will be fit and proper people. As the local Member of Parliament for What was the view in the Home Office at the time? Ofcom, I intend to go through its door and make that We looked seriously at whether to have an independent request in person before the end of the week. It needs to review of the Metropolitan police investigation. The know that this House, which owes the hon. Member for hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) is right Rhondda (Chris Bryant) a great tribute for initiating that although lots of things have happened since 2006, this debate, wants that matter to be considered at the everything takes us back to the original inquiry led by earliest possible opportunity. Andy Hayman in 2005-06. All the information that is Ofcom will, of course, not prejudge a criminal trial. emerging was there at that time. We thought about It cannot come to a conclusion that somebody is guilty getting Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary to of an offence before they are found to be guilty. However, do an independent investigation. Incidentally, I was it has a statutory obligation to consider at any time who told at the time that this matter was outside the IPCC’s is appropriate to hold a broadcasting licence. The message remit. That might not be the case now. My right hon. from this House must be that we want it actively to Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and consider that obligation. If it comes to the view that the Castleford (Yvette Cooper) is right to ask if it has a role future owners of BSkyB are inappropriate, it should to play. There was a view that we should wait for the rule accordingly, which would mean that the BSkyB Director of Public Prosecutions to report. It was Keir merger could not go ahead. Starmer by that point, I believe, not Ken Macdonald. The DPP said that, on the information given to him by 3.24 pm the police—those were the precise words used—there was no cause for any further investigation. We were all Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) swimming around wondering whether we were receiving (Lab): I will not detain the House for long. I put my the correct information. name down to speak because I believe that we need to persuade those on the Treasury Bench to have a public I shall quote something that my right hon. Friend the inquiry, and I wanted to give my perspective. The Attorney- Member for Delyn said in his written to statement to General was his usual assured and eloquent self on that Parliament when he was Police Minister, after the fracas issue. He got into trouble on the two issues on which the around the July 2009 incident. He stated: Government have been wrong today. The Prime Minister “As mentioned in his statement on 9 July, Assistant Commissioner was right to say that we would have public inquiries. He John Yates is ensuring that the Metropolitan Police Service has was right to put that in the plural, because we may need been diligent, reasonable and sensible, and taken all proper steps several inquiries. He was wrong to say that Rebekah to ensure that where it has evidence that people have been the subject of any form of phone tapping (by Mr. Clive Goodman or Brooks should not resign—[HON.MEMBERS: “He didn’t Mr. Glen Mulcaire) or that there is any suspicion that they might say that.”] No, he did not say that, but when Hansard is have been; that they have been informed. The decision to inform published tomorrow, people will be able to read between individuals that they have been targeted for illegal interception of the lines. The Prime Minister is also wrong to go ahead their phone communications is an operational matter for the with the takeover of BSkyB. police.”—[Official Report, 14 July 2009; Vol. 496, c. 11WS.] 1563 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1564

Clear statements were being made to us. Ministers will what the police were doing any more than anybody else. know that if the Home Office called in an independent However, we did look into the principle of how our investigator—HMIC or the IPCC—it would cause serious rights are affected in the modern idiom. Our rights were concern, because politicians would be interfering in an put forward in 1688, I believe, in the Bill of Rights, operational matter. For all those reasons, even though I which explained what we now call privilege. It was the and my good friend the former Police Minister may find following year, in 1689, that somebody started trying some of the questions awkward, I believe that a public to interfere by intercepting our letters, so this is not a inquiry is the right way to go. new problem. I have huge regard for the work of the Metropolitan However, the Committee considered whether we police, but was it being evasive, dishonest or lethargic? I needed to do something to tackle the problem in the think it is one of those three. modern context. We came to the conclusion, first, that it was necessary for us to debate whether it is just parliamentary Frank Dobson: Or all three. activities that should be covered by privilege, or whether it should also include constituency work. We also thought Alan Johnson: Or was it being all three? The hon. that there was now a case for a privileges Act that would Member for Maldon used a vivid phrase about rolling set out what our privileges are and what they mean in away a huge stone and looking under it. I believe that the modern context. there was a certain lethargy with so much else going on, and an attitude of “We’ve got two people banged up. I strongly support the setting up of inquiries, but let Do we need to go any further into this?” Because of the us not forget that it is important to tackle the issues set diligence of Members of Parliament—Back Benchers, out in the Committee’s 14th report of this Session. I not Front Benchers—and of some parts of the press in hope that it might be possible for the Government to refusing to give up, we can now roll away the stone. bring forward a draft privileges Bill fairly soon, so that Although what we find underneath will be uncomfortable, we can have important debates on a matter that affects it will be good for this House and for our society to the rights of the public in this country. They are perhaps do so. misdescribed as privilege, because they are the rights of the people and are very important. Several hon. Members rose— 3.35 pm Mr Speaker: Order. In view of the level of interest in Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to the debate, I am reducing the time limit for Back-Bench follow the hon. Member for North East Hertfordshire speeches to five minutes from now. I would simply add (Oliver Heald), who raised the important point about that Members will want to help each other, and they the use of privilege in dealing with these matters. I join might wish to exercise a degree of self-restraint in either others in congratulating my hon. Friends the Members taking or making interventions. for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) on how they have pursued this 3.31 pm campaign. The former Home Secretary, my right hon. Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): May Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and I start by picking up on a point that the right hon. Hessle (Alan Johnson), was right that this has been a Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Back Bencher-led campaign. What was good about Hughes) made? He said that celebrities and Members of what the Prime Minister, the Attorney-General and my Parliament having their phones hacked into was bad right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary said is enough. However, whenever a child goes missing or that now the Front Benchers are with the Bank Benchers there is a death in suspicious circumstances, people up in respect of trying to deal with this matter. I also pay and down the land and parents in particular feel a sense tribute to the Chairman of the Select Committee on of dread and great concern. To think that the allegations Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Maldon that are coming out now relate to such incidents is truly (Mr Whittingdale), and the work done by his Committee shocking, and that sense of shock is felt right across the over the years. House. The Select Committee on Home Affairs has conducted When we last debated the matter on 9 September last a separate inquiry, which has looked by and large at year, concern was expressed about the position of Members what the police have done. We conclude that inquiry on of Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman made a speech, Tuesday, when our witnesses are Mr Andy Hayman, as did the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), Sue Akers, the head of Operation Weeting, and Peter who has been so dogged on the issue. The point they Clarke, who assisted Mr Hayman in the first inquiry. made was not that an MP is above anyone else, because The Committee must be careful during its examination of course they are not, but that we have ancient rights to ensure that we do not step on the substance of the that are very important to democracy. We call them police investigation, which is the one thing that we need privilege, but they are really about having freedom of to be concerned about in any public inquiry. I am in expression to come here and put our case for the people favour of a public inquiry, but it is important to frame whom we represent without being impeded in that the terms of reference in such a way that we do not work. The fact that those rights might have been interfered impede the police investigation. That can be done—we with in the course of the scandal was why the issue was are hoping to do it on Tuesday when we take evidence referred to the Committee on Standards and Privileges. from the police officers concerned. Framing those terms Of course, the Committee was in the position that my of reference in that way will enable such a public right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General inquiry to take place. described. We were not able to look into the detail of From the evidence that was given to the Culture, the allegations, because we did not want to prejudice Media and Sport Committee, and the evidence that the 1565 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1566

[Keith Vaz] commercial, gain in the midst of a police inquiry of this nature is utterly reprehensible and heartless. In fact, it is Home Affairs Committee has received over the last few unforgiveable. months, it is clear that much needs to be looked at. We have not really mentioned the mobile phone companies, It is imperative that we get to the bottom of what but there was an interesting exchange between went on in the Dowler case, related cases and the representatives of the big companies and members of much wider question of journalistic practice and its the Home Affairs Committee. When we asked how relationship to the police, which perhaps is one of the those companies informed their clients that they had graver underlying issues in the whole business. For my been hacked, we were told that there was no uniformity part, I think that we need the truth accumulated patiently, in their responses. Therefore, in my view, we need not not quickly, and certainly not just media snippets. Equally, wait until all the criminal matters have been dealt with I have to say that the relish with which the revelations before issuing guidance. have been greeted by some seeking to take on the Murdoch empire or engaging in political pot-shots strikes Similarly, the Attorney-General was very clear on the me as opportunistic to say the least. I urge all Members payment of police officers. I note from the exchange to ensure that we do not lose sight of the serious referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda matters before us. The No.1 priority must be to allow that when Mr Coulson gave evidence to the Culture, the police investigation the freedom to conduct its inquiries Media and Sport Committee, he did not actually know rigorously and meticulously. that it was illegal to pay police officers—he felt that it was acceptable when the code of conduct allowed it to The House may recall that the maximum sentence for happen. unlawful interception of communications is two years Yesterday I wrote to previous witnesses to the Home in prison under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Affairs Committee inquiry simply to ask them whether, Act 2000. I understand that, coincidently, that is the before we conclude on Tuesday, they stand by the same sentence as for the offence of perverting the evidence that they gave—that includes letters to Rebekah course of justice. I am sure that hon. Members across Brooks and to Assistant Commissioner John Yates, the House will want the law to be applied independently, who gave important evidence on the question of whether with maximum vigour and with full force, which is why he could accept the legal guidance given by the Director I hope that all Members will refrain from saying, under of Public Prosecutions. When we have that public inquiry, the cloak of privilege or otherwise, anything that could I hope that we look at the legal advice given by the DPP prejudice any criminal prosecution. to the first inquiry, and how that differed from the My understanding is that launching a full inquiry advice given to the second inquiry. now, as some have called for, would either risk prejudicing I am glad that there appears to be a consensus—an the criminal investigation or force the inquiry to be acknowledgement by the Prime Minister that an inquiry suspended immediately or in relatively short order—at should be set up, following the demands of Back Benchers least before it can get to the heart of the matter—pending and indeed the Leader of the Opposition—but I caution the outcome of the police investigation. I might be the House to be careful in those terms of reference, so corrected, but I recall that that was the reason the that we do not prejudice the Operation Weeting Public Administration Committee, under the chairmanship investigation. In that way, we can get to the bottom of of the then Member for Cannock Chase, suspended its things, and those who have committed criminal offences inquiry into cash for honours. I also recall that similar can be charged and convicted, without the excuse that grounds were put forward by the previous Government the matter was discussed in Parliament, or that they in resisting calls for a public inquiry into the shooting of appeared before a public inquiry, and that their prosecutions Jean Charles de Menezes, as requested by his family— are therefore not valid. because it might have interfered with either the health and safety prosecution against the Metropolitan police or the Independent Police Complaints Commission 3.39 pm investigation that was going on at the same time. Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): I That said, I am doubtful whether the criminal congratulate the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris investigations or subsequent prosecutions—if that is Bryant) on securing this debate. The Dowler family are where they lead—could shed enough light on the bigger my constituents, and yesterday I spoke to their solicitor. picture and wider practice of what went on at the News I should add as well that Sara Payne, the mother of of the World and the other newspapers or on the questions Sarah, also lives in my constituency. Allegations of about the police response to the allegations at the time, hacking have been made in relation to both families, particularly in relation to the Dowler case. Nevertheless, and the House will understand that there is a deep sense I have no intention of prejudging or second-guessing of outrage in the community, which has already been the outcome of those criminal investigations. That would conveyed to me, and across the country at large. be irresponsible. Given the risks of conducting a full I know that the Dowler family are deeply disturbed inquiry at the same time, it appears inevitable now that by the revelations of hacking at the time of their daughter’s we will have to wait for the outcome of the police disappearance and that they would like a public inquiry investigation before any independent inquiry can properly to get to the bottom of the allegations. Given the get to the heart of the matter, the core of the business. emerging allegations over recent days, the case for that In addition to the assurances already given to the House inquiry is now irresistible, so I was reassured that the by the Attorney-General, I hope that Ministers will Prime Minister confirmed to the House today that undertake to return here at that juncture so that the the question is now how, not if, we have that inquiry. matter can then be properly considered by the House. I The hacking of phones for journalistic, and ultimately join colleagues in expressing the House’s determination 1567 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1568 and resolve to ensure that we get full answers to every could endanger press independence, which would be a one of the very serious questions that have emerged in massive mistake. We need an independent body, but one recent days and weeks. that is robust and effective and has the powers to investigate and enforce. It would be a major step forward 3.44 pm if such a body emerged from these events, as I hope will Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): happen. Let me start by congratulating and thanking my hon. I am pleased that my right hon. Friend the Member Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) has performed a great public service in the clear, precise told us that the Metropolitan Police Commissioner had and consistent way that he has pursued this issue, as has referred the issue of possible payments to police officers my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich East to the Independent Police Complaints Commission, but (Mr Watson). They have done us all a great favour, the IPCC’s investigation needs to go a little wider. The including this House. Chair of the Select Committee on Culture, Media and The Attorney-General was right to tell the House Sport, the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), that there are issues on which Ministers will say little in pointed out that the information now coming into the the short term. All the allegations need to be fully public domain was in the possession of the police in investigated and prosecutions should follow if the evidence 2006. I hope that the commissioner will refer that to the substantiates them. We must do nothing in this House IPCC too. The Metropolitan police had also reported that would impede police investigations or the consequences to Ministers. My right hon. Friends the Members for being pursued. However, this issue goes far wider than Delyn (Mr Hanson) and for Kingston upon Hull West that, as I am sure the Attorney-General would accept. and Hessle (Alan Johnson) had information on which It goes much wider than the faults or criminal activities they had to take their decisions, and so has the Select of individuals, which is why a judicial or public inquiry Committee on Home Affairs. Those issues relate to the needs to be established now. We need that assurance. conduct of the police and the activities of police officers and need to be looked at objectively. The IPCC should Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I appreciate the be asked to do that. right hon. Gentleman’s giving way, especially as I have What the IPCC does should feed into the wider been subject to an investigation by the police in connection public inquiry; I do not think that the two are alternatives. with this matter. I wonder whether he could outline for The IPCC has the resources and the investigative capacities, us who he thinks would be of sufficient calibre to carry and it has earned a reputation for being tough. It is out such an investigation. Would they be an international therefore important that it should be able to ask the figure or someone from the United Kingdom? questions, “Did the police mislead Ministers and Parliament?”, “Did police receive money?”—that question Alun Michael: I do not have time to go into that has been referred to it already—and, “Did relationships adequately. What I would say is that we need a public distort investigations?”It is important that those questions inquiry with the capacity to get to the bottom of various should be forensically investigated as part of preparing issues. Therefore, it needs to be set up carefully and have the ground for the wider, transparent investigation that appropriate powers, and not be the type of bureaucratic we need, as the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and public inquiry that has sometimes got in the way of the Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) said. I do not think truth emerging. that these are alternatives, but we need the forensic We have heard one of the investigators complaining capacity of the IPPC to look into some of these issues. about the relentless pressure of demands from the News The third issue is that we need clarity about the law. of the World on investigators and journalists. I did not My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East detect a great deal of sympathy in the House—I think I (Keith Vaz), the Chairman of the Home Affairs Select heard a bit of a groan, indicating a lack of sympathy—but Committee, rightly said that the Committee had identified pressure comes in two forms. One is the pressure to confusion about what the law says. That confusion deliver—“You’re only as good as your next headline”—and should not exist. I refer specifically to the fact that John the other is the general pressure of what is acceptable Yates told us that there were only a small number of and expected in any profession, or the environment in victims, based on what he said was legal advice that the which people do their work. It is important that both be police would have to prove that messages had been addressed. At the heart of the matter are three issues. intercepted and also listened to before being heard by The first is the standard of journalism; and the second the recipient. However, Kier Starmer QC, the Director is the standard of governance in the press and the of Public Prosecutions, told us that that was not the media. This could—indeed, should—be a watershed advice given to detectives. Advice from prosecutors was moment. In general, journalists want to be open and at best provisional and did not limit the scope or extent transparent and to do an honest job, but that is not easy of the criminal investigation— all the time. I saw something of the power of the press pack as a young journalist in south Wales. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I call The Press Complaints Commission is well meaning Zac Goldsmith. but, frankly, it is a joke. The public and journalists deserve better. Its lack of influence and inability to change the environment or set standards lets down 3.50 pm those who have earned a high reputation for themselves Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): I warmly and for our better newspapers and media outlets. The congratulate the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Press Complaints Commission clearly has neither the Bryant) on securing this hugely important debate, which will nor the capacity to change things, but we need to has already led to something of a breakthrough. The take care: statutory regulation of the press and media whole House should be grateful to him for his contribution. 1569 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1570

[Zac Goldsmith] (Mr Watson) in particular, but they are not alone. Collectively, however, we have turned a blind eye. It is I shall speak briefly but firmly in support of the only with this latest sordid twist, the shameful behaviour motion. I was encouraged by the words of the Attorney- of the News of the World in relation to Milly Dowler General earlier. This scandal has escalated dramatically. and the subsequent outpouring of public rage, that At first, it involved just the odd celebrity, and then a few Parliament has finally found its—what is the correct members of their wider families. Then it emerged that term?—backbone, and taken a stand. Well, it is better members of staff employed by those celebrities had late than never. been hacked, some of whom lost their jobs because they Rupert Murdoch is clearly a very talented businessman were falsely accused of leaking information to the press. and possibly even a genius, but his organisation has When absolutely pushed, the public said that they were grown too powerful and it has abused its power. It uncomfortable with this news, but there was no outcry. has systematically corrupted the police and, in my view, That was because the many media commentators soothed has goaded this Parliament, to our shame. them, saying, “It’s just celebrities. They know what they signed up for, and this is what it’s all about. It’s tittle-tattle.” Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab) rose— We were told that the hacking was distasteful, but if we interfered with the press, we would never see any exposure Zac Goldsmith: I am about to finish, so it would be of corruption, fraud or hypocrisy. fine if the hon. Lady would like to intervene now. Sheila Gilmore: In the light of the hon. Gentleman’s Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) comments, does he agree that the issues Members have (SNP): The hon. Gentleman has alluded to the continual raised on this topic over the last few months are relevant drip, drip of further revelations. Given what has happened, to the proposed BSkyB takeover so we should show our does he agree that by this stage, anyone who has been backbone on that issue, too? hacked should at least be informed of that fact? Zac Goldsmith: I agree absolutely. It is not possible, Zac Goldsmith: I agree with the hon. Gentleman as suggested earlier, to separate what we are talking 100%, and I suspect that everyone else does, too. about now from the proposed takeover. I think any The revelations have continued, and in the past few separation would be entirely artificial. That deal needs days we have seen what appears to be almost a tsunami. to be put on hold by the Government until the dust has We have heard the details involving the families of the settled and we know where we stand. Anything less than tragic Soham girls, and the sickening details relating to that will be viewed as appalling by the public and will be Milly Dowler herself. I will not repeat them. We have met with a nod of disapproval. This is a crucial issue, so also heard about the victims of 7/7. Those are all I hope to hear some more positive remarks about it in innocent people who never chose to be in the public the wrap-up. limelight. I have said what I came here to say and have only a I suspect that, as the right hon. Member for Cardiff few seconds left. This motion is hugely important. I am South and Penarth (Alun Michael) implied, this is the very grateful to the hon. Member for Rhondda for this tip of the iceberg. We have no idea how big that iceberg breakthrough and I hope the House will provide him is, which is why we need a full public inquiry. On its with the support he deserves in pursuing this incredibly own, this scandal justifies such an inquiry. We have seen important agenda. the abuse of position and power on an awesome scale. The blurred lines that we have allowed to exist for the 3.56 pm press, to allow them to do what we need them to do, Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The whole country is have been well and truly stretched. We have seen systemic rightly shocked at the revelations of what has been abuse of almost unprecedented power. There is nothing going on in our media, but today is not the time to go noble in what those newspapers have been doing. into details about who said what or did what at what We cannot see this matter on its own, however, because time. Our role is to secure a full and open public inquiry. the corporation has not acted on its own. Revelations I note the acceptance of that by the Government Front- last night, although they have yet to be proven, showed Bench team, but the issue now is when. We need to that a former editor provided authorisation for payments secure the available evidence to do a thorough job of to the police. This demonstrates that the company was investigating the issue now. The inquiry needs to be set not acting on its own, and what can generously be up while the police investigations continue. described as a sloppy investigation by the police suggests This debate is about what kind of country we want to that that collaboration ran very deep indeed. There can be. A free press is an essential part of our democracy. It be few things more important to members of the public challenges us, exposes our weaknesses, sometimes helps in this country than an ability to trust the police. to get our message across and keeps people informed of Tragically, however, what began as a conspiracy theory the arguments to help them to form a balanced opinion. is now looking less and less like a theory. However, the press has developed as Parliament has This does not even end with the police. As MPs, we developed and there is a symbiotic relationship between depend on the media. We like to be liked by them; we politics and journalism. The issues we are debating here need to be liked by them. We depend on the media, and today really go to the heart of what kind of nation we that applies still more to Governments. It is an unavoidable want to be in the future. observation that Parliament has behaved with extraordinary We need to understand that what we are debating cowardice for many years, with a few very honourable today has to do with how we treat weak and vulnerable exceptions, whom I shall identify. They are the hon. people or the bereaved, and whether we stand up for Members for Rhondda and for West Bromwich East people when they are under pressure or being unfairly 1571 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1572 treated, or whether we become part of a baying mob, 4.1 pm egged on by the likes of the News of the World, eager for Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): As we have heard, a kill just for the sheer excitement of it and heedless of the phone hacking scandal has been examined twice by the consequences for the victims and of whether what the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport, of we are witnessing amounts to justice. which I am a member. Our report published in July I do not believe that people want to live in that sort of 2007 examined the self-regulation—or lack of it—of country or feel that we have become such a country. The the press, partly in the light of the Goodman-Mulcaire public do not share the values of the media people who revelations. It was claimed that the practice had been a have effectively brought this debate to the Floor of the one-off, but, even then, there was serious concern that House today. They do not share the values of those who the problem might be more widespread and that more have invaded the lives of innocent victims and bereaved investigation was needed. families when they are grieving and at their most vulnerable. The Press Complaints Commission had appeared I was not brought up in a country that stood by while toothless, while reports from the Information Commissioner others suffered. I always believed that the post-war in 2006 had hinted that illegal activity of all sorts was Britain I grew up in was a country that stood up for taking place, driven by the desire of tabloid newspapers— fairness and perhaps for those who were not as strong not just News International—to print sensational stories. as ourselves. I thought the country was populated by a Revelations in 2009 and 2010 forced us to look at the heroic generation that was justifiably proud of what it matter again. There was news that phone companies had endured through the second world war and of the had positively identified a large number of probable freedoms that had been won—not just for themselves and definite victims, information that Scotland Yard but for the whole world. That was achieved by ordinary had refused to release and about which it was coy to the people doing extraordinary things for the greater good point of dissembling. It was becoming clear that Scotland of everyone. It is these ordinary people we are defending Yard itself had not been handling the inquiry satisfactorily today. and that only the pursuit of the case by other media Who are the people who believe that they can trample outlets was forcing any progress at all. over the lives of ordinary people and use them for their As the House knows, our inquiry concluded that we own ends or their own advancement? Should we allow had not been told the truth. Our report stated: ourselves to be seduced into accepting that the things “We strongly condemn this behaviour which reinforces the these people dictate to us, claiming they are in our widely held impression that the press generally regard themselves interest, are acceptable and should be allowed to happen? as unaccountable and that News International in particular has sought to conceal the truth about what really occurred.” Helen Goodman rose— Clive Efford: I will not give way, if my hon. Friend Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and does not mind. Lesmahagow) (Lab): I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman heard yesterday’s interview on Radio 5 Live I cannot go into the detail of specific cases, as others with my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich have done. What I will say, however—this is one of the East (Mr Watson), in which Stephen Abell, the director points that I really wanted to make—is that I think of the Press Complaints Commission, refused to accept there is a corporate responsibility. I applaud Ford for any responsibility whatsoever for the behaviour of the withdrawing its advertising from News Corporation. I press. I promoted a debate in the House on the self- also think that anyone who is not a fit and proper regulation of the press. Does the hon. Gentleman agree person to drive my old taxi should not be put in charge with me that now is the time for a root-and-branch of a major news outlet. review of the commission? Other organisations—Halifax, npower, T-Mobile and Orange—say that they are reconsidering their position, Mr Sanders: I did not hear that interview, but when while Tesco and Virgin Media say that they will wait for one considers the Press Complaints Commission, the the outcome of the police inquiry. That is not good phrase “chocolate teapot”, or indeed the phrase “fishnet enough. I say to people who may be purchasing goods condom”, comes to mind. from those organisations, or thinking of buying a new Our 2007 inquiry had elicited a response from News mobile phone, that they should not trade with companies International that it had carried out a full inquiry itself that do not stand side by side with the ordinary person and was satisfied that the Mulcaire-Goodman case in the street who is outraged at what has gone on in was isolated. That was patently untrue. Our second News International. inquiry encountered more obstacles: Goodman and Only if ordinary people make a stand will we stop Mulcaire refused to present evidence, as did Rebekah these rich people—rich people who have invaded the Brooks. More worrying were the attitude and answers lives of ordinary people in the street—making themselves of Scotland Yard. even richer and even more powerful. Only by hurting them where it really matters—in their profits—will the I return to the point that I made to the Prime Minister ordinary person in the street influence their behaviour today. We cannot have confidence in an investigation by in the future. the Metropolitan police; we can have confidence only in a full judicial inquiry with a judge who can take witnesses Several hon. Members rose— under oath, ask questions under oath, seek papers, and subpoena witnesses to appear. We desperately need that Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. A inquiry. Clearly, where there are allegations of criminal great many Members still wish to speak. I am going to acts or there is the potential for collusion between reduce the speaking time limit to four minutes, and if suspects and the police, a more rigorous investigation is speakers show restraint, I may manage to get everyone in. required than, sadly, a Select Committee can offer. It is 1573 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1574

[Mr Sanders] right up until the start of Operation Weeting in January there seemed to be a determination to limit the inquiry also clear that we need to extend the scope beyond and close it down as quickly as possible. The concerns News International. Operation Motorman highlighted about that, and about the Metropolitan police’s links to that the Daily Mail was trading most prolifically in a powerful Sunday tabloid, have long merited this illicit personal information, while the Daily Mirror, independent inquiry that is going to be allowed today. when under the auspices of Piers Morgan, is suspected We must not lose sight of the fact that, despicable of using voicemail interception to reveal Sven-Goran and unlawful as it is, phone hacking is just one clever Eriksson’s affair with Ulrika Jonsson. Given that there are ruse, and there is a further question any inquiry must questions over Scotland Yard’s handling of the current address: was there a trade in information in return for case, it is essential that its actions are reviewed independently payments or favours between the police and the News of and that future action against suspected phone hackers the World that was not only unlawful or unethical, but does not remain solely the domain of the Met. was to the detriment of ordinary people—not just When the Culture, Media and Sport Committee looked celebrities such as Sienna Miller, or politicians, but at the first investigation under Andy Hayman, it found ordinary people who might be considered fair game by that there was the air of Inspector Clouseau about it, the News of the World, but whose well-being it is the but as the subsequent investigation under John Yates police’s duty to protect? These questions alone constitute progressed one almost got the impression that something good grounds for an independent public inquiry. far more sinister was at work. The revelations to date Before the Prime Minister’s statement today, I was show that the police must have known far more than pondering whether we could rely on the News of the they let on, and that there is considerable scope for World, with its new spirit of thorough co-operation, to them to have misled Members of the House on several whistleblow on itself fully. I suggest the record rather occasions. suggests not. Indeed, following the publication of our Finally, let me say that I am very grateful to the hon. report of February last year, News International chief Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) for ensuring that executive Rebekah Brooks dismissed it, and News we can hold this debate, and the whole House should be International issued a statement saying, with absolutely grateful to him for that as well. no hint of irony, that 4.6 pm “the reaction of the Committee to its failure to find any new evidence has been to make claims of ‘collective amnesia’, deliberate Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): May I obfuscation and concealment of the truth.” add that Mr Speaker has done a great service to Parliament and the many victims and their families by allowing For good measure, it added, again with no irony, that today’s debate? “certain members of this CMS Committee have repeatedly violated Three years have now passed since we who serve on the public trust.” the Culture, Media and Sport Committee started our Editor Colin Myler was more explicit. He singled out inquiry into press standards, privacy and libel. We me and my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich undertook that inquiry because of the treatment the East (Mr Watson) in a full-page editorial: tabloid press meted out to the McCann family, and it “We’ll take no lessons in standards”. took such a long time because we had to reopen the investigation into phone hacking, not for political reasons He continued: but for the integrity of this House as it was clear that we “Sadly, the victims here are you, the public”. had been misled by News International. Last year, we That was very prescient of Mr Myler, but clearly not in did not believe its follow-up evidence either, and subsequent the way he intended. That scathing, self-serving editorial events have proved us right. As many people have said, ran to more than 1,100 words, whereas the eventual the latest events are likely to prove to be the tip of the apology to victims in April this year ran to just 160 words. iceberg of cynicism, double standards, cover-up and law That would be comical if it were not so sad. breaking over a long period by a publication that clearly felt itself to be above the law. Much has been said about Rebekah Brooks, and I agree that her position is untenable. As for the editor of Helen Goodman: My right hon. Friend the Member the News of the World—I will be charitable—Mr Myler for Delyn (Mr Hanson) made the point that the former has, by now, had so much wool pulled over his eyes that Director of Public Prosecutions has now been taken on he clearly cannot find his own self-respect or his resignation; as a silk for News International, and that is indeed the he is staying in post at the News of the World. case. He was DPP when Glenn Mulcaire was prosecuted. Could the Press Complaints Commission be trusted The Attorney-General said that that was a matter for with an inquiry? Sadly, the answer is no. The PCC was his professional ethics, but surely this should have gone lauded in that editorial, but this is how its chair, Baroness through the Cabinet Office as he was a senior public Buscombe, returned the compliment yesterday: servant? “There’s only so much we can do when people are lying to us.” Paul Farrelly: I entirely agree. The former DPP should The PCC accepted none of our recommendations, including be invited to examine not only his ethics and his conscience, our suggestion for a new name—the press complaints but his record in this, because he is also culpable in the and standards commission. The body commands little failure to get to the bottom of this affair. respect and it has a much-diminished chair. As for the Nothing should surprise us about the News of the police, Operation Weeting certainly seems to be more World, but what did surprise us during our inquiry was thorough, but beforehand there was little competition. the approach of the Metropolitan police and the evidence it It is time for a public inquiry, as my hon. Friend the gave to us. Our report was highly critical of the Met, but Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) has suggested. 1575 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1576

Following the latest revelations there has been much now be a pause in the consideration of the matter that talk of a “tipping point” for the press, but we have been has been referred to and will be determined by Ofcom. I at tipping points many times before—for example, with urge the Secretary of State to consider whether we the McCann family—and nothing has changed. Above should pause things, given what has happened. all, for the better of decent journalism in this country, In the time remaining, I want to return to the subject all newspaper proprietors, not just Rupert Murdoch, of my private Member’s Bill. I am not sure whether it must look themselves in the mirror and ask, “Do I like falls within the remit of the public inquiry, but I hope what I see?” and, “Do I care to change it?” that the Government will consider changing the law. I believe that the press has lost the moral plot and I say 4.11 pm that with a heavy heart because before I went back to Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): Yesterday, I momentarily the Bar I trained as a journalist and worked as one for hesitated before rising to support the hon. Member for many years. I am proud to be a member of the National Rhondda (Chris Bryant), but only because I was unfamiliar Union of Journalists and I was mother of the chapel at with the procedure—I did know that he was doing the Central in Nottingham. I look on my brothers and right thing. I, too, congratulate him, and not only on sisters at a national level with, frankly, despair. It is bringing this debate to this House. I congratulate him important to remind ourselves that small local papers also because I believe that a consensus is forming across are very different from national papers— this House, and that is to be welcomed. Chris Bryant: Any in particular? I thought also yesterday that our newspapers had sunk to the darkest moment in their history, given the Anna Soubry: I cannot hear the hon. Gentleman’s revelations about the tapping of Milly Dowler’s phone. sedentary intervention, which is probably a good thing. It is important that we get the language right; we are In all seriousness, it is right and fair to say that all of talking about the theft of evidence, the destruction of us know from our considerable experience that local evidence, the impeding of the investigation into the papers act properly and responsibly. We all enjoy a disappearance of a child and, as it turned out, a murder perfectly proper relationship with them—a relationship investigation. I might have misheard the hon. Member that has not been enjoyed between other politicians and for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson), but if I heard national newspapers, which is a situation that must change. him correctly and he is right in what he was saying, all of that was known by the Metropolitan police back in It comes down to this: if people did not buy these 2002. For reasons that I cannot comprehend, no newspapers, we would not have this problem. Too many investigation was undertaken by the Metropolitan police people have an insatiable appetite for gossip, trivia, at that time into what were undoubtedly extremely scandal and the scum of life and that is why we have serious criminal offences. I am absolutely confident that found ourselves in this position. If people did not buy this new inquiry will look into the dealings of the such papers—I hope that on Sunday the News of the police, because the spotlight is rightly now not just on World will get its real punishment through a complete our newspapers; it is moving on to our police. What has and total slump in its sales—we would effectively see been going on concerns me greatly. the sort of regulation and change that we all want. There must be a huge cultural shift not only in how we Yesterday was also a bleak day for our newspapers, deal with newspapers but in how they conduct themselves. because we saw the Attorney-General prosecute two of They should act in a much better and more responsible them for contempt of court for their coverage of the manner in future. arrest of a man in Bristol in relation to the murder of Jo Yeates. I wholeheartedly congratulate the Attorney-General on taking that prosecution, as it was a courageous 4.16 pm move. The hon. Member for Rhondda talked about the Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) need for politicians to be courageous and I absolutely (Lab): I strongly support my hon. Friend the Member agree. We must be not only courageous, but honest. I for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and, of course, the demand will be honest and say that I am not sure that I was as for a public inquiry, but I want to argue that its remit courageous as I should have been with my private should perhaps be a little wider than the immediate Member’s Bill in February. That is because any politician phone hacking affair. treads exceptionally cautiously when they stand up in The central question concerns the governance of this place to criticise the press and ask for it to be News International, the present chief executive of which, curtailed. As the hon. Gentleman said, we know the Rebekah Brooks, says that it is “inconceivable” that she possible consequences of making that sort of move. knew about phone hacking—[Laughter.] That was her word. A former News of the World journalist, Paul Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Have McMullan, said in effect that it was inconceivable that not the words of Stanley Baldwin some 70 years ago, she did not know, however. The idea that she will stay when he described the press as having on, effectively to investigate herself, is simply surreal. “power without responsibility, the prerogative of the harlot throughout It was News International that paid out large sums of the ages” hush money to cover up evidence of criminality within been brought to bear by this most grotesque example the organisation and that, according to the PCC, lied to that we have discussed today? the regulator, yet that is the company seeking the right to become the most powerful media company that this Anna Soubry: I concur absolutely, and I am sure that country has ever seen. Based on the evidence that is that sentiment is echoed across the House. already known—never mind that which is still due to Such is my concern—I have been persuaded by much come out from the other 11,000 pages of Glen Mulcaire’s of what I have heard today—that I think there must notes—I cannot see how the Secretary of State for 1577 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1578

[Mr Michael Meacher] including Beverli Rhodes, a 7/7 survivor whom people might have heard on LBC this morning saying that she Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport can let that go was concerned that her phone had been hacked. through. After today and after this week, almost the There are several issues to discuss, but I am afraid I whole country will be behind that view. might break the somewhat cosy consensus that has There are wider questions. The first concerns the developed so far. There is no question but that the media plurality that the Secretary of State likes to pray police investigation has been shown to be unsatisfactory, in aid to explain how hemmed in he is by statute. The as we have seen from previous reports of the Culture, answer to that question is that, as formulated, the Media and Sport Committee. However, there are some system is antique and obsolete when faced with a behemoth things we can do straight away. The whole business of such as the Murdoch empire. The combination of News dancing on the head of a pin regarding whether certain Corporation and BSkyB will be in a position to distort hacking is illegal could be dealt with by a simple change or bend competition through cross-promotion, price to clause 1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers bundling, preventing rivals from advertising and other Act 2000. I have confidence that Deputy Assistant distortions in the advertising market. The fact is that Commissioner Akers will make some progress with none of those issues, which are crucial to the question Operation Weeting, but I also understand that it might of competitiveness, was even considered by the Secretary be appropriate to bring in an external force to help of State. That is the decisive reason why he should with that. reconsider. The hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) has brought in some new allegations about News Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Will my International today. I agree that News International has right hon. Friend give way? not helped itself with its drip-drip feed of information and, perhaps, casual approach to investigation internally. Mr Meacher: I would love to give way to my right I do not know whether the actions were deliberate or hon. Friend, but I am under instructions not to give whether there were simply people there who were out of way. control. What I do know is that News Corp did finally In particular, the idea cooked up by News International react, and has brought in people to do an investigation, that putting Sky News into a separate company somehow which is the right thing to do alongside the police inquiry. preserves media plurality is utterly spurious. Newco, the I believe that a witch hunt against Rebekah Brooks is company that will run Sky News, will be dependent on being developed. I do not hold a candle for her—I met News Corporation for 85% of its revenues and for her once last year at a Conservative party conference access to the market, and the safeguards for editorial and I am sure that she has been at Labour party independence are weak and of the kind that News conferences before—but I am worried about this aspect. International has repeatedly undermined before. Neither This is not the time to hold back evidence, and I hope Ofcom nor the Office of Fair Trading regards this that my hon. Friends will present evidence rather than arrangement as a sustainable solution, the two-week simply say that Rebekah Brooks was the editor at the consultation period was clearly inadequate, and the time. Let me give the analogy of a sales director I know arrangement puts far too much power in the hands of of from my previous commercial experience who was the Secretary of State rather than independent regulators. pressurising his sales people to keep up with their Those are all very strong reasons why the Secretary of quotas and find new business. He was not aware that State has to look at this again, after a pause, which the two people were indulging in what could be called whole House is asking for. illegal practices—basically, bribing people—and it is Lastly, I want to say something about the Press right that we found that out, but I am not saying it was Complaints Commission, which is surely one of the right for that sales director to be told they personally most ineffective performers in the regulatory landscape. had to resign. It played absolutely no role whatever in uncovering the phone hacking revelations; indeed, it far too readily Helen Goodman: Will the hon. Lady give way? dismissed The Guardian’s original warnings nearly two years ago. I really do think that the PCC has been so Dr Coffey: I cannot give way, because I know that poor that the public inquiry should look again at the other people want to speak. future of self-regulation after so many cautions, including I also recognise that Operation Motorman and Operation David Mellor’s warning 20 years ago— Glade took place. Indeed, Rebekah Brooks herself was told that her phone might have been hacked and that Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. the Home Office and the police also tapped her phone— [HON.MEMBERS: “Ah!”] I am just saying that it happens 4.21 pm to a number of people. What that reflects, as the Information Commissioner discussed in his report back in 2006, is Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): First, let that the problem was not unique to one news group. me apologise to hon. Members who might wonder why The multiple inquiries that we have, which I fully support, I have been called, given that I left the Chamber earlier. should look across the news industry, not solely at I went to see the Third Reading of my private Member’s News International. Bill in the other place; unfortunately, there seemed to be There is also a route within Parliament to address a mini-debate on Lords reform first. this. We have heard today about how Parliament did I absolutely share hon. Members’ feelings of being not react, but the Culture, Media and Sport Committee appalled at the revelations and allegations being made did. We also have an opportunity to address this issue today. Of course I extend my sympathy to the victims, through the privacy committee being set up to look at 1579 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1580 super-injunctions. We could extend its terms to address The Attorney-General rightly said that there must this, in addition to the public inquiry. Given the lack of not be one law for the powerful and another for the confidence in previous Members of the House, perhaps non-powerful, but it is also true that there should not be it should have a majority of new Members. one law for part of the powerful—the political world—and Moving forward, I should like the police inquiry to another law for another part of the powerful, which is be given as much resource as it needs to reach its the media world. All of us must be equal and subject to conclusions very quickly. I want the public inquiries to the law. be established and I should like the privacy committee to be enhanced. Finally, let me make one point about 4.28 pm BSkyB. News International is not News Corp, Rebekah Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Any Brooks is not a director of News Corp or BSkyB, and I newspaper or other media outlet that interferes by understand that she has no intention of ever being so. hacking or any other means into people’s phones, e-mails or post, and any newspaper that interferes with police 4.25 pm investigations to maximise profits and concoct more Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): salacious headlines, is acting despicably and illegally, Some years ago I was a questioned as a witness in the and inflicts more pain on victims. Any claim that it is investigation in the “cash for honours”allegations, because acting in the public interest, or that it is all down to a I am a former staff member at No. 10 Downing street. single rogue operator, will be treated with the derision Those allegations may have harmed the Labour party’s and scorn that it deserves. That newspaper should expect capacity to raise money, because people did not want to the full force of the law to bear down on it, and it go near our party in case their reputation was trashed in should feel the heat as consumers and advertisers vote the media. The allegations may have harmed our ability with their feet. I am pleased that that is exactly what is to win elections, thus resulting in our being in opposition, beginning to happen. rather than in government. The police investigation, It is difficult to believe that those illegal activities, however, came to nothing. There were no prosecutions, given their scale and the specific nature of the information no charges and no case that the Crown Prosecution that was being supplied to a newspaper—which could Service thought worthy of prosecution. not, in my view, have been obtained legally—were restricted During those investigations thousands of e-mails and to one private investigator or one newspaper. It is hard notes were investigated, and dozens of people were to understand why the original police inquiry was so interviewed. Those who were questioned—and in some truncated. For those reasons there is agreement in the cases arrested, although never charged—often found House today on the need for a wide inquiry or inquiries themselves in the newspapers immediately, as the twists headed by a judge. The inquiries should look at which and turns of the investigation leaked out. People were media used those illegal techniques, what can be done taken from their beds in the early hours of the morning to address what is clearly a widespread cultural problem and appeared immediately all over the newspapers, even within the industry, and what changes to the law might though they were innocent of any crime. be required. It is absolutely right that the police should be tireless We also need to tackle the Met and examine what in their pursuit of truth and that no obstacle should went wrong with the original inquiry, where it appears stand in their way, but it is impossible not to draw a that not only was every stone not turned over, but a contrast between the zeal with which that ultimately whole rockery was left in place. Were payments were fruitless investigation was pursued and the investigation made? Were investigations hindered as a result of other into hacking by the News of the World—particularly in unacceptable activities? Those are just some of the view of the fact that, as we have heard from the hon. matters that the judge and the Home Secretary—if that Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), the Chair of is who sets the terms of reference—will want the inquiry the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport, to examine. We will need to establish a clear time scale most of the evidence that has emerged in recent days and the costings for the inquiry. has been in the hands of the police since 2006. Why was There are many other aspects that I wanted to touch the defence of one rogue operator believed for so long, on, but time is short. We are faced with a scandal of as it has become clear that the practice was much more expanding proportions, including hacking, allegations systematic? Why, after each new piece of information of interference in police investigations, and claims that comes out, do we suddenly find that new e-mails are payments have been made to officers. To restore faith uncovered? and trust in the police and the media, we must lock up The affair focuses on the conduct of the News of the the guilty, establish a statutory inquiry, shine a cleansing World and the victims of the practice of phone hacking, light on the culture of the media and, if necessary, of but the conduct of the newspaper—and perhaps of the police, and implement the reforms necessary to other newspapers that may be involved—is not the only ensure that the privacy of victims and citizens is never question. Given the history of the issue, we must consider intruded on again. It is clear from today’s debate that the question of who in this affair polices the police, and this is the will of the House, and we are committed to asks hard questions about the police investigation. That making it happen. investigation may have been stepped up, but we need an inquiry to ask hard questions about the relationship 4.32 pm between the police and the News of the World in particular—about payment for information and the Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) trade in information and personal details. Whether it is (Lab): I extend my congratulations to my hon. Friend an IPCC inquiry or the public inquiry for which we the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) on securing have called, those questions are part of the picture. this emergency debate, and on his longstanding and 1581 Phone Hacking6 JULY 2011 Phone Hacking 1582

[Catherine McKinnell] proceedings are complete. Criminal investigations into, and prosecutions for, phone hacking will certainly take tireless campaign to bring these issues to light, alongside months to reach a conclusion, and possibly years. If we my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich East are to start to rebuild the public’s confidence in our (Mr Watson). criminal justice system and the operation of our newspaper There have been many thoughtful, powerful, industry, the public and the victims of this dreadful comprehensive and brave contributions from Members crime need the reassurance of a public inquiry now. in all parts of the House today, including from a number of the victims and alleged victims of the phone hacking 4.36 pm scandal, and from several Chairs of Select Committees The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): We who have been involved in investigating the matter. It is have had an important and overwhelmingly thoughtful clear that all Members of the House hold a common debate on a subject of deep significance not only to the view that the ongoing criminal investigation into phone House, but to a huge number of people across the hacking activity must take priority. country. Right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of It is important to be clear that we on the Opposition the House have, as is perfectly reasonable, expressed Benches would not support any course of action that their disgust and outrage at the latest allegations we could or would put the hard work of the police and have heard over the past few days. investigators, or any future criminal prosecutions, at To hack into the phone messages of victims of murder risk. Our priority and focus must be on ensuring that and terrorism and their families will strike all right-thinking justice is secured for people who have been victims of people as completely beyond the pale. As the Prime that crime. In considering this issue, it is of course Minister has made clear, and as the Attorney-General important to reiterate that the increasingly shocking stated at the start of the debate, the Government share and distressing revelations in this scandal should by no the shock of the House and the nation. Our thoughts means result in all journalists and newspapers, whether are with the families of those affected by this latest cruel national or local, being tarred with the same brush. The twist in what has been for many of them an horrific incredibly important role played by the tireless campaigning ordeal. The Dowler family have gone through more in of The Guardian on the issue has been mentioned. The the last few weeks and years than any family should hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) paid tribute ever have to go through. The same is true of the families to the great work of local journalists too. of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman. Now, as we approach However, a criminal justice system that inspires public the sixth anniversary of the 7/7 London bombings, we confidence and an independent, rigorously regulated hear that the families of the victims of our worst ever media are two key planks of a functioning democracy, terrorist attack might also have had their phones hacked. and it is clear that both of these have been damaged by The timing is a particularly terrible irony, as the hon. this developing scandal. The allegations unfolding daily, Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said at the outset and sometimes hourly, have thrown up many more of the debate. issues than can be dealt with or resolved through criminal I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on behalf of the investigations and prosecutions alone. We are not alone whole House not only on obtaining the debate, but on in saying this. The Government should listen to the fighting for so many years on the issue. I congratulate public and, as the shadow Home Secretary outlined him also on striking exactly the right tone in the debate; earlier, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner himself. it is a matter on which the House needs to move That is why we welcome the Prime Minister’s commitment forward as one. I also agree with the shadow Home today to hold a public inquiry, or inquiries, into the Secretary’s point that one of the institutions that need issues that have arisen as a result of this scandal. to look at how they operate in this regard is the House of Commons, which must decide how best to deal with Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will the hon. Lady such difficult matters that not only give rise to complex give way? issues of public policy, but require personal bravery on the part of individual Members by putting themselves Catherine McKinnell: I am afraid that I cannot, as and their reputations on the line. She made that point time is very short. and it is exactly right. As outlined earlier, given the potential conflicts of It is not just the rich and famous whose lives may interest, we need reassurance about exactly what the have been affected—although they, too, have basic rights Prime Minister’s role will be in this. I must also reference to privacy and fair dealings—but the families of those the widespread concerns expressed by Members across who have suffered pain beyond what any of us can the House about News Corp’s takeover of BSkyB. I imagine have had their lives intruded on. The hon. trust that the Attorney-General and the Culture Secretary Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson), who will treat all these concerns with the seriousness they also deserves congratulations, provided new and powerful deserve and take action accordingly. Although the evidence about some of the things that have gone on. Attorney-General said that he was mindful of the comments My hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) that have been made during the course of the debate, we made the particularly important point that, although have not been reassured that positive steps to set up a much of the debate has inevitably concentrated on full, independent, wide-ranging and transparent inquiry News International, the subject is much wider and will be taken without delay. relates to other press groups and newspapers as well. Without jeopardising any criminal investigations or I also praise the honesty of the right hon. Member future prosecutions, the Government can begin the for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), work of agreeing the nature and scope of the inquiry the former Home Secretary, and the former Police and who will take it forward before those criminal Minister, the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), 1583 Phone Hacking 6 JULY 2011 1584 in revealing that some of the untruths and cover-ups that they might have had to deal with meant that they Estimates Day either took decisions that in retrospect they might wish they had not taken, or, indeed, actively said things that [3RD ALLOTTED DAY] misled the House. It is important that everyone accepts the honest tone in which such revelations have been made. I congratulate also my hon. Friend the Member ESTIMATES 2011-12 for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), who made a powerful point about not endangering prosecutions. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Clive Efford: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Afghanistan and Pakistan Damian Green: I apologise, but I really do not have [Relevant Documents: Fourth Report from the Foreign time. Affairs Committee, Session 2010-12, on the UK’s foreign Owing to the seriousness of the allegations and to the policy approach to Afghanistan and Pakistan, HC 514, fresh information, the Metropolitan police service decided and the Government response, Cm 8064.] in January to open a new investigation, which many Motion made, and Question proposed, Members have mentioned. It is being led by Deputy That, for the year ending with 31 March 2012, for expenditure Assistant Commissioner Sue Akers, and I should emphasise by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office— that it involves a completely separate unit in the Met from the one that carried out the original investigation (1) further resources, not exceeding £1,279,625,000, be authorised for use for current purposes as set out in HC 921, in 2006. It is one of the largest ongoing police investigations, and it is precisely because of this new, thorough investigation (2) further resources, not exceeding £19,718,000, be authorised for use for capital purposes as so set out, and that new evidence and information about what exactly went on is being obtained. The investigation has already (3) a further sum, not exceeding £1,188,315,000, be granted to Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated led to five arrests, and it is entirely possible that there Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised will be further arrests and, potentially, further prosecutions. by Parliament.—(Mr Vara.) The Director of Public Prosecutions has announced that the Crown Prosecution Service will examine any 4.42 pm evidence resulting from the Met investigation, and it has asked Alison Levitt QC, who has had no previous Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): The British involvement in the case, to take a robust approach in involvement in Afghanistan has been long and costly, deciding whether any prosecutions can be brought. and whether it has achieved its stated objectives is a The Home Secretary spoke this morning to Sir Paul moot point, but that does not imply that it was the Stephenson, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner. wrong decision or that we should not be there. He assured her that the current investigation is fully In the aftermath of 9/11, it was essential to deny resourced and proceeding well; he told her that any al-Qaeda a base to operate; the intervention was essential; allegations of inappropriate payments made to police and there was a United Nations-mandated coalition of officers by journalists is being fully and independently the willing led by the United States, but as usual we investigated in conjunction with the Independent Police were in close support. Following the general election, Complaints Commission; and he assured the Home the coalition Government very much followed the Secretary also that this matter will continue to be Afghanistan policy of their predecessor, but two important investigated through Operation Elveden, under the direction changes did take place: first, the establishment of the of Deputy Assistant Commissioner Sue Akers, in National Security Council to co-ordinate Whitehall’s partnership with the Met’s directorate of professional Afghan war effort; and, crucially, the publicly announced standards. decision to set 2015 as the deadline for withdrawing Of course, a number of cases may go before the British combat troops. courts, so it is important that we do not prejudge or Both initiatives were welcome, although famously prejudice potential future prosecutions. We must allow the National Security Council did not make the withdrawal the current police investigation to get to the bottom of decision. Nonetheless, the key policy objective in these terrible allegations and to discover the truth, but it Afghanistan mirrors that of the Government’s predecessor: is clear that, in the light of the step change in the Afghanistan should not again become a place from seriousness of the allegations, we must have a public where al-Qaeda and other extremists can attack the UK inquiry or inquiries into these matters. and British interests. Achieving that objective is said to rely on four main 4.42 pm goals: a more stable and secure Afghanistan; the conditions Three hours having elapsed since the start of proceedings, for withdrawal of UK combat troops by 2015; an the motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 24). Afghan-led political settlement that represents all Afghan people; and regional political and security co-operation that supports a stable Afghanistan. They were the right objectives then, and they are the right objectives today. Some progress is being made on all those fronts. Increasingly, the Afghan army and security forces are taking over control of the districts, troops are beginning to withdraw and there is talk of a political-led settlement, all of which is of course welcome. 1585 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1586

[Richard Ottaway] during his visit this week. We have to set the tone and show that there is light at the end of the tunnel for I just wonder whether we need to reassess the policy Afghans who want to bring up their children and enjoy objectives. The Foreign Affairs Committee received evidence the prosperity that we are used to in the western world. to suggest that the core foreign policy justification for Combined with that, we must continue to support the the UK’s continued presence in Afghanistan—that it is Afghan army, police and security services. Huge strides in the interests of UK national security—may have have been made to bring those forces up to a level of been resolved some time ago. There is a big difference competence that will allow them to maintain law and between the Taliban, who are locals who want their order in their country. There will be a large army and a country back, and al-Qaeda, which is made up of large police force. The Prime Minister said this afternoon hard-nosed international terrorists. Given the apparently that for every one troop that is withdrawn, two will go limited strength of al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, its desire in from the Afghan police and security services. Those to continue to use Afghanistan as a base is questionable. services have a long way to go to achieve the operational The tracking down and shooting of Osama bin Laden standards that we see elsewhere. The exit of NATO adds weight to that argument. combat troops will not be smooth, and the handover When the Prime Minister appeared before the Liaison will be fraught with problems, but the sheer size of the Committee, I asked if he was still receiving intelligence Afghan forces should be sufficient to hold the line that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan remained a threat to UK against the inevitable counter-attack once the occupying national security. He confirmed that it did, and he said forces have left. the same when I put a similar point to him this afternoon. The US draw-down is bigger than expected, and I said that that poses a dilemma for Parliament. It 33,000 troops will have been withdrawn by this time seems that the justification for Britain’s most important next year. The President of the United States says that policy initiative is based on an intelligence assessment the US has crippled al-Qaeda’s capabilities and been that has not been subject to parliamentary scrutiny. The successful in its mission in Afghanistan, claiming that ghost of the Iraq war hangs over us. Under the Kabul is much safer than it was before despite continued circumstances, I suggest that the intelligence is shown to attacks such as the one on the Intercontinental hotel a committee of Privy Councillors or the Intelligence last week. and Security Committee, which can report to the House Interestingly, the President has been criticised on on whether it agrees with the assessment. both sides in Congress, with his opponent in the last In the meantime, the military campaign continues. presidential election, John McCain, arguing that the The Taliban are being pushed back, and so they should current troop levels should be maintained for at least be with the firepower ranged against them. However, I another year to accomplish their objectives. On the question whether they can be defeated militarily. The other hand, the Democrats have argued that the President Foreign Affairs Committee has considerable doubts has been too timid. The cynic in me says that that over whether the international security assistance force’s probably suggests he has got it about right. counter-insurgency campaign is succeeding. We question However, the military do not agree with the President the fundamental assumption that success in Afghanistan either. We may raise eyebrows here when senior military can be achieved through a strategy of clear, hold and officers enter the political arena, and we may wish that build. The Taliban are, at heart, Afghans who resent the they would do the fighting while we do the talking, but presence of occupying forces. It is questionable whether they have nothing on what has been going on in the the USA’s full military onslaught on the Taliban is United States. Admiral Mike Mullen, the Chairman of necessary to deny al-Qaeda a place from which to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, quite openly said that he operate. The key thrust of the Committee’s report is advocated a less aggressive draw-down schedule. General that we should encourage ISAF, and the United States Petraeus, the former head of the armed forces in in particular, to engage in a political reconciliation Afghanistan, who is about to become the director of process. There is little support outside the United States the CIA, said that he, too, had recommended a more for continuing the surge started by George Bush and gradual withdrawal. Marine General James Mattis, continued by President Obama. The continued military commander of US central command, who was General pummelling of the Taliban is, in all certainty, counter- Petraeus’s boss and immediate superior, agreed. With productive in achieving a political settlement. friends like that, who needs enemies? I respect the The recent announcement by President Karzai that President for his courage in rejecting the arguments of the United States is involved in reconciliation negotiations his military and continuing with the draw-down. is a good start. However, talking to the Taliban is not The House should be in no doubt that this is going to easy. There is no address or phone number, and the be messy. Security incidents in Afghanistan continue, hard-liners and the top brass of the Taliban have turned such as the tragic loss of Scott McLaren from the Royal their backs on any reconciliation attempts. None the Regiment of Scotland. However, the provinces and less, in my judgment there is a split in the Taliban urban districts continue to be transferred to Afghan between the hard-liners and the moderates. Those who forces, which shows progress towards transition. are most opposed to a political settlement tend to be No one likes to engage in talks with an enemy that more on the fringes of the movement—the uneducated has been killing one’s own armed forces, and I share the and the unemployed. Those who are more focused on view of Hillary Clinton, who has said that she finds the the future prosperity of their country are prepared to need to have contact with the Taliban “distasteful, but talk. We should exploit the divisions in the Taliban and worthwhile”. It is not a pleasant business, but it is a engage in the process of reconciliation as soon as possible. necessary one. I have no doubt that any negotiations The US draw-down of troops will help in that, as will leading to a political settlement must be Afghan-led, the additional numbers announced by the Prime Minister despite the Taliban saying that they want to speak 1587 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1588 directly with the United States. So far, top US officials Several hon. Members rose— have sidestepped that, and I hope the Government will now encourage them to get more fully involved and get Mr Speaker: Order. There is no formal time limit on a forum up and running with the full involvement of Back-Bench speeches, but I have something like nine Afghanistan, the United States and Pakistan. people on my list, and I am looking to call the Opposition to wind-up at approximately 6.30 pm, so Members can Relations with Pakistan are difficult, but if we think do the arithmetic for themselves. A certain self-restraint we have problems, nothing compares with the US-Pakistan would be appreciated. relationship, which is at rock bottom. I have to confess that I am quite shaken by the level of mistrust between Pakistan and the United States. The situation has been 4.56 pm exacerbated by the shooting of Osama bin Laden. I Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): It is a great pleasure personally have no doubt whatever that that was a to follow the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard necessary step for the United States to take, and I quite Ottaway). I thank him for, and congratulate him on, the understand why such sensitive information could not be quality of his Committee’s reports, particularly the last shared with anybody. As a result, I am quite puzzled by report on this subject. Pakistan’s aggressive reaction and apparent failure to It was a disappointment to hear the Prime Minister understand why the US did not share the information present a statement that was very much the traditional with it. one of unreasonable optimism, of exaggerating the Pakistan has difficult decisions to make. It has deployed threat of terrorism from the Taliban, which is almost troops in Waziristan and the north-west frontier, but my non-existent—there is a threat from al-Qaeda, but not instinct is that its heart is still not in it. Another illustration from the Taliban—and of ignoring altogether the most is the US use of drones, which are fearsome weapons optimistic sign: namely, the possibility of talks with the that are turning out to be remarkably effective—so Taliban. much so that everybody wants them. So why is Pakistan We have heard so much accentuating the positives ordering the United States to take its drone bases out of and ignoring the negatives. The Prime Minister spoke the country? of the progress with the Afghan army and police, but said not a word about the fact that NATO delivered the Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Does the hon. final blow by bringing the helicopter in following the Gentleman accept that Pakistan has suffered huge losses, recent attack on the Intercontinental hotel, and made and at a high level, from the activities of the Taliban no mention of the group of UN workers who were and other terrorists? That partly demonstrates its level lynched by a mob, even though they were being protected of commitment. by the Afghan police and army. Nor did he mention the most depressing incident, when 500 prisoners, many of them Taliban who were captured at grievous cost in Richard Ottaway: Yes, which makes it more the mystery blood and treasure, escaped, almost certainly with the why it does not take stronger action against the Taliban. collusion of local Afghans. Those 500 are now free to It is not how to get into the hole that counts but how to attack our soldiers again. get out of it, and I believe that Pakistan is still worrying about how it got into the hole. I would encourage it to I am concerned greatly by our attitude. We are trying engage fully and totally in denying the Taliban a base in to deny the truth and to protect ourselves, but there are its own country. no good reasons for that. It is extremely wounding to the families of the bereaved to suggest that the cause in On the other side of the equation, the US should which their loved ones died bravely was a noble but vain recognise that Pakistan is a proud and sensitive country. one, but we must get that across. The Prime Minister We all admire the US for its can-do attitude and for has a difficult task to convince the country that we must getting things done, but there comes a moment every not only talk to but negotiate with the enemy. That will now and again when it must think about how others will be difficult for the relatives or loved ones of the fallen. feel about that, and work with the grain, despite its It is disappointing that the Prime Minister did not dominant position on the world stage. give a clear answer on the hurt that will be caused if the The UK does have a role in all that. There are now plan to take the remains of the fallen to Brize Norton 3 million Pakistanis living in the UK. Our embassy in continues. They would then be taken via a circuitous Islamabad is making every effort, but diplomatic route that avoids the most populated areas. Local people, opportunities exist to win Pakistan’s confidence in our supported by many of the families of the bereaved, say genuine desire to help them. Can we help with textile that they want and appreciate the opportunity to give exports or commercially in another way? Can we help it public expression to their grief, as happened in Wootton to break down the barriers with India? Above all, we Bassett. The public would like to pay their respects as should encourage the US to adopt a policy on Pakistan they have done before. No impression should be left that takes account of Pakistan’s security concerns, and that there is any attempt by the Government or local we should help the US to play a constructive role in the people to deny the country the chance to pay its tributes reconciliation process. and accept the true effects of war. I am under no illusion of the difficulties involved in That has been done twice before. Last year on a respect of any of those countries. None the less, the Monday and a Tuesday, the names of the fallen were Foreign Affairs Committee commends the UK Government announced, but that was at a time when the House did for its advocacy of the regional approach to political not have the maximum attendance, or the attention reconciliation. Currently, the conditions for political focused on it, that it has at Prime Minister’s Question settlement are virtually non-existent, but if ever there Time when those names are announced. It is impossible was a time to make the effort, it is now. now, because of the rules of the House, to do what I 1589 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1590

[Paul Flynn] into the mouth of Helmand, drove the 5,000. Before, there were two dead; now it is 375. That is three times have done in the past, which is to read out the names of the number killed in the charge of the Light Brigade the fallen in Iraq and Afghanistan. That is now forbidden. and twice the number killed in the Iraq war, and I I would not look forward to doing that again, though, challenge anyone to come up with any improvements because to read the names of the fallen in Afghanistan that resulted from the incursion into Helmand. What is and the thousands with serious injuries would take better now? It was peaceful when we went in. There was about an hour and a half, if I was to include their ranks no threat. and give a suitable pause to each one. None the less, that is the most effective way of getting across to the Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to my hon. Friend House the consequences of decisions that we took. for giving me the chance to intervene on him again. The Chief of the General Staff, Peter Wall, and the Chief of I was grateful to see the report on Helmand on the Defence Staff made it absolutely clear to the Defence BBC 2. It is worth remembering that, as has been Committee that if we had not gone into Helmand, the repeated, politically we went into Helmand because Taliban would have moved north towards Kabul. It is senior politicians believed we would be there for three completely untrue to say that Helmand was a peaceful years and hoped that not a shot would be fired. We are province; or rather, it was peaceful only because the grateful for the evidence given to the Foreign Affairs Taliban had complete control over the area. Committee and to the Public Administration Committee in which we saw the incredibly trivial reasons we went Paul Flynn: I was not present on the Committee, but I into Helmand. At that point, we had lost two soldiers in saw the sitting on the Parliament channel and was combat—five in other regions—but now it is 375. A profoundly unimpressed by the evidence given. However, written report to the FAC attributed it to the hubris of I do not want to dwell on this issue; I want to give other the Foreign Office, which felt that it might suddenly people a chance to speak—I have the advantage of become a footnote. The conflict in Iraq was coming to speaking early. I believe that at some point an investigation end and it wanted to be in the limelight. The military has to be conducted into why we went into Helmand. use the expression, “We must use them or lose them”, Of course it cannot be done now, while we are still knowing that if their battle groups are suddenly stood there, but I believe that the story revealed will be one of down, there is the threat of major cuts in a future military incompetence and political weakness. We are in defence review. the position now—the hopeful time—of talking to the Taliban. I do not know why the Prime Minister does Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): not emphasise this more, but for the first time we are in Although I disagree with my hon. Friend, I have huge the position of taking practical steps to build peace that respect for his principled stance. However, when the would result in bringing our troops home. Chief of the Defence Staff and the Vice-Chief of the The alternative is that we are currently in a period Defence Staff came before the Defence Committee only like that the Americans found themselves in in 1970 and three weeks ago, that was not the reason they gave for 1971, when they knew that the war was coming to an the Army going into Helmand. They gave completely end in Vietnam. We know that there is no happy ending different reasons: there was a job that had to be done, in Afghanistan, and we should not build up the prospect and if it was not done by the British, it would fall to one of an Afghanistan that will somehow be like a Scandinavian of our partners in the international security assistance democracy or anything of the sort. The ending will be force. messy. Paul Flynn: The evidence is in the reports from both Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I thank my Committees—in evidence from a distinguished former hon. Friend for giving way, and I apologise for missing ambassador in Kabul and from two senior people in the the first part of his speech. Does he not think that after civil service to the PAC. The evidence is clear. One 10 years in Afghanistan, the fact that the Prime Minister witness said that no attention was paid to the national now says that there has to be negotiations, including interest. It is difficult to see where on earth the with the Taliban—something that has been patently national interest lay in stirring up a hornets’ nest in obvious for a long time—is an indication of just what a Helmand, but we know the result. This was a peaceful military and political disaster this whole thing has province. We went in to ensure reconstruction, but been? the result, tragically, was the loss of an unknown number of lives—possibly 9,000—and there was no Paul Flynn: I am sure that that will be the judgment reconstruction. Instead there was destruction on a massive of history. I am afraid that we in this House will be seen scale from collateral damage alone. We set up posts that as not having taken the decisions that we should either. we defended at huge cost in lives to our own people and We have not challenged our continuing presence in to the others. Afghanistan or the continual sacrifice of the lives of our brave soldiers. This has been a bad episode in our This is a calamity on a scale nearly unprecedented in history. Tragically, just as we saw one rotten Government our military history—and that is saying something. in Afghanistan brought down in 2001—they were not When we went in, we did not take a decision in the as rotten as the one before, who included the House, but we had a debate. In that debate, someone Mujahedeen—the current Government might well be said that this would be worse than the charge of the replaced in five years by another rotten Government, Light Brigade. This time Blair to the left of them, Bush and we will ask ourselves, “What was the sacrifice for?” to the right of them, holler’d and thunder’d: We are now in the position that General Kerry, now “Theirs not to reason why, Senator Kerry, described in ’71 when he asked himself Theirs but to do and die: the agonising question, “Who will be the last soldier I Into the valley of Death”, will order to die for a politician’s mistake?” 1591 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1592

5.8 pm if it is to defeat al-Qaeda—one cannot logically place a deadline on it. Yet the Government have made it clear Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): It is that all combat troops will be withdrawn by the due a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Newport West date, regardless of the situation on the ground. It is (Paul Flynn), as we have similar views on this issue. therefore little wonder that Foreign and Commonwealth As those Committee colleagues who are here will Office Ministers have admitted that their communications know, I voted against this report. It will come as no strategy needs to be reviewed, as it appears that Joe surprise to the majority of Members present that I Public has still not got the message. Someone should come to this afternoon’s debate as a sceptic about our perhaps ask why, after 10 years, the message is somewhat mission generally.Having cautioned against our deployment confused. Could it be that the mission itself is incoherent? in Afghanistan and voted against the Government’s If that is the case, there is little point in shooting the continued policy—in the one opportunity that we had messenger. to debate and vote on the issue, last year—I remain deeply worried about our progress generally. To reflect Jeremy Corbyn: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of any briefly on the past, our intervention defied all the lessons evidence whatever that the streets of London have been of history. We fundamentally underestimated the task made safer by our presence in Afghanistan? Or does he and we under-resourced it accordingly. We have been believe that our involvement has caused radicalisation playing catch-up every since. Having served as a platoon and perhaps made London a more dangerous place, commander in South Armagh during the 1980s, I have and that we need to look to our foreign policy if we no doubt that the mission suffered in particular from want to make ourselves secure? low troop density levels. We have suffered as a result. Mr Baron: The hon. Gentleman raises a serious point. My criticism is not levelled at the troops. We all know I certainly think that our recent aggressive interventions that they have done everything that could have been have radicalised parts of the Muslim world against asked of them. They and we can be proud of what they us—a fact that I think was confirmed by a former head have achieved. Rather, my criticism is levelled at the US of MI5 in giving evidence. I certainly do not think that and UK Governments, who have failed because they our involvement has helped our situation, and I see no have not recognised two fundamental distinctions, which concrete evidence that the situation has improved in even at this late stage could salvage something positive regard to the threat on the streets of London. If I am from this otherwise sorry affair. First, we have failed to wrong about that, I am sure that the Minister will distinguish between the key objective of keeping al-Qaeda correct me. out of Afghanistan and the four main goals on which The bottom line is that there is confusion of purpose, that objective is said to depend. Those goals include the and the first distinction that we are failing to make is achievement of a stable and secure Afghanistan. In that between achieving the objective and the four main fact, the key objective and the attainment of those goals goals. have become confused to the extent that the goals have become ends in themselves. This has given rise to mission The second distinction that the Government are failing creep and loss of focus. The talk of nation building, to explore rigorously is that between the Taliban and women’s rights and human rights are but three examples. al-Qaeda. The relationship is complex and not well In effect, we have become missionaries instead of focusing understood. There is no shortage of evidence—some on the mission. was submitted to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee—to suggest that the Taliban would not necessarily allow In my view, this confusion permeates the report. For al-Qaeda back into the country if the Taliban were to example, the report assesses progress against each of regain control of certain regions. They know that, ultimately, the so-called goals instead of focusing on the key objective. al-Qaeda led to their downfall. Indeed, US intelligence We go into great detail in the report about what we are sources suggest that fewer than 100 al-Qaeda fighters doing on women’s rights and human rights, for example. and certainly no al-Qaeda bases are left in the country. The goals are a means to an end, however, not the end To all intents and purposes, we have achieved our in itself. Our main mission in Afghanistan is not to mission some time ago—a point that my hon. Friend build a better country but to defeat al-Qaeda, and our the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), the losing sight of that fact has cost us dearly. That is why I Chairman of the Select Committee, made well. We all voted against the report, having tried unsuccessfully to know that the Taliban are not a homogeneous group, make a series of amendments. We are not in Afghanistan but there are fundamental differences between the Taliban to build a better country; we are there to defeat al-Qaeda. and al-Qaeda—yet the threats from al-Qaeda and the This confusion of purpose has gone to the top of Taliban have become conflated and almost synonymous. Government. When the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) was Prime Minister, he Mr Spellar: Given the distinctions that the hon. claimed that our troops were in Afghanistan to protect Gentleman is making, why does he think the Taliban the citizens of London from terrorism, yet in almost the allowed al-Qaeda to establish themselves and a base in same sentence he threatened President Karzai with Afghanistan? troop withdrawal if he did not end the corruption in his Mr Baron: The bottom line is that there are various Government. That clearly illustrated the confusion, and factions of the Taliban, but the relationship between I pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman in Prime the Taliban and al-Qaeda is very complex and not well Minister’s questions back in 2008 that those two statements understood. I could return the question and ask: how is did not fit well together. it that, given that the fundamental differences between Last year, the coalition Government gave a deadline the two are clear, we are failing to explore them? At the of 2015 for troop withdrawal. Again, that is inconsistent. end of the day, peace is not made with friends but with If our commitment is conditions-based—in other words, enemies. We have got to initiate talks. 1593 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1594

[Mr Baron] see the Taliban and al-Qaeda sever all contact must be part of a settlement, rather than a precondition. I These two distinctions—the distinction between the believe that the decapitation strikes on the Taliban key objective and the four main goals, and the distinction leadership should end, because there must be a degree between the Taliban and al-Qaeda—are very important. of trust in the negotiations. If the last 10 years have If we are trying to build a more stable and secure shown us anything, they have shown us the Taliban’s Afghanistan and make it a better country, we will in all ability to replace one generation of leaders with another. probability have to beat the Taliban. If, on the other Given the cost to the United States in blood and hand, we are just trying to make sure that Afghanistan treasure, this will not be easy for US politicians. There is free of al-Qaeda, we might not have to defeat the will be those in the Democratic party who will think Taliban. That shows the importance of the two distinctions. about human rights, women’s rights and so forth, and What they lead one on to believe is the need for the there will be those in the Republican party who will not Americans and the British to open meaningful and want to talk to terrorists. At the end of the day, however, non-conditional talks with the Taliban in order to explore holding unconditional talks is the only way forward. common ground. Our brave soldiers can only buy time; now it is time for the US politicians to step up to the plate. Thomas Docherty: It is certainly the understanding of the Defence Committee that our role is to place the Afghan national security forces on a footing where they 5.21 pm can deal with security. The hon. Gentleman is right to Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): It is a great say that it is not about beating the Taliban, as the pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Basildon and mission goal is to get the ANSF to a point where they Billericay (Mr Baron). I wish that we had heard from can take control of their country. him in earlier years, because his calm and rational approach was very impressive. I look forward to hearing Mr Baron: In an ideal world I would agree with the the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis): his hon. Gentleman, but the report makes clear that there idea of establishing sovereign bases that we should seek are severe doubts about the ability of the Afghan national to control, but without going out on patrol to have our security forces to take over once we leave, despite all the men killed, is entirely sound. I also look forward to money and the training that have gone in. The fact that hearing the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border the ANSF could not protect UN personnel in areas that (Rory Stewart), who has direct experience of the region. had been handed over and were deemed to be safe The plain fact is that this is not a winnable war. I illustrates the problem that we face. There is not a found the Prime Minister’s metaphor about al-Qaeda, uniform view on this matter, as it is worthy of note that or the Taliban, and Sinn Fein rather bizarre and ill-judged; there are severe reservations about whether the Afghan but judgment is not, perhaps, the Prime Minister’s security forces will be in a position to take on that role, strongest suit at the moment. We are talking about a come the deadline. huge mess: an intervention undertaken for sincere and Suggestions have been made that preliminary talks decent reasons that is now terminating as so many other have taken place. This is welcome news. The delisting interventions throughout recent and older history often from UN sanctions of 18 former senior members of the have. I do not think that we withdrew cleanly from Taliban is perhaps part of that process. However, I have India and Pakistan, from Aden or Cyprus, or from any concerns about the substantive nature of these talks. number of situations. The same could even be said of Until very recently, the American view has been that Northern Ireland. Some might observe that the almost America will talk to the Taliban only if they lay down apartheid segregation between Catholic and Protestant their arms and accept the constitution. Frankly, that is communities is hardly a tribute to community and living in a dream world. The Taliban will not be beaten society building in parts of Belfast and Derry. and they will not lay down their arms. The real problem is the eternal question posed by, I History suggests—we could look at counter-insurgency think, Lord Salisbury, who said, “If we listen to the campaigns in Malaya, for example—that not one of the generals, we will never be safe.” Clemenceau, 20 years preconditions for a successful counter-insurgency campaign later, said, “War is too important to be left to the exists in Afghanistan. There is no control of the borders; generals.” We have allowed our Afghanistan policy to the troop density levels are insufficient; we do not have be over-driven and over-controlled by the military: of the support of the majority of the population; and we that there can be no doubt. My hon. Friend from certainly do not have a credible Government in place. Scotland who is on the Defence Committee quoted the Not one of the preconditions exists. The Taliban are generals who had spoken to the Committee— not going to lay down their arms and simply walk away, particularly now that we have declared our hand with Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): All of the deadlines. Scotland! I believe that the time has come for the British Government to press the Americans to have non-conditional Mr MacShane: Well, it is nice to have a true Scot talks with the Taliban. That is crucial. Just holding here, rather than a nationalist. preliminary talks will get us nowhere. They have to be I do not know of any recorded moment when any non-conditional. We need to remind the Americans that British general giving evidence to any parliamentary or it is possible to talk and fight at the same time, as we public inquiry has admitted he got things wrong. It is in proved in Northern Ireland. However, it was the very their contract that generals are always right. If they are nature of those talks—the fact that they were let down, it is the fault of the politicians. Before the unconditional—which played such a key role in bringing election we were told continually by Labour Members the IRA into the peace process. The American wish to that it was the Prime Minister’s fault for not providing 1595 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1596 enough Chinook helicopters and reinforcements, and we are none the wiser—[Interruption.] I have not been that Ministers were responsible for the fact that we were invited to No. 10 so I cannot check whether the sofa has not succeeding in Afghanistan. It is a tribute to my gone. We do not know who took the decision and on colleagues on the Front Bench that they have not adopted what terms. those rather shoddy tactics—as some might have been I would argue that we should be getting out a lot tempted to do—in respect of the handling of the conflict faster. Canada is out, the Netherlands is out, and Belgium since May last year. is pulling out half of its men. The presence of international security assistance force-NATO allies in Afghanistan is Thomas Docherty: As a member of the Defence now getting thinner and thinner, and, yes, it will be a Committee and the Member for Dunfermline and West withdrawal. No general wants to be the one who folds Fife, I can tell my right hon. Friend that when the Chief up the flag, climbs the ladder to the top of the embassy of the Defence Staff and Chief of the General Staff building and climbs in a helicopter and leaves, but appeared before the Defence Committee, they did put stopping a war is, perhaps, as great a military art as their hands up and say mistakes had been made when starting one. going into Helmand. Perhaps that was the first time It would be fascinating to look at the official record that that happened, but the Army has admitted it made of the Russian Duma for the 1980s, when the Russians mistakes. were convinced that they were bringing a civilising mission to Afghanistan, to see whether debates such as Mr MacShane: I am glad to hear it, but frankly—I do this one were taking place. Then, of course, they faced not want to quote Bismarck and the Balkans and the external foe of the Mujaheddin paid for by President Pomeranian grenadiers—I weep every Wednesday when Ronald Reagan and Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. the poor Prime Minister has to come to the Dispatch There has been little reference to the fact that the Box and yet again read out the name, or perhaps names, Mujaheddin of the 1980s was a product of western of a dead British soldier, and for what? I cannot find an foreign policy. We have heard in the past couple of days answer to that question. that Mr Reagan won the cold war, and part of that To give the Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman, winning presumably included the driving of the Soviet the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), Union and its troops out of Afghanistan. If that was and his colleagues their due, they admit that, because the case, every Russian would wish that Mr Reagan had one of their report’s key conclusions, on page 83, is that won it a lot earlier; they perhaps believe that the red “at a strategic level, we seriously question whether the efforts army should never have gone into Afghanistan. However, expended…have a direct connection to the UK’s core objective, the money sent by the west to create the Mujaheddin namely the national security of the UK”. sowed dragons’ teeth that turned into dragons on 9/11 That is absolutely right; the Select Committee Chairman and 7/7, and it would be good if the people examining has summed it up there—it is written down. It is a the history of that era had the honesty to say so. Foreign Affairs Committee conclusion, and it should be at the forefront of all of our discussions on Afghanistan. Jeremy Corbyn: Is my right hon. Friend aware that There is no longer any connection between UK national after Soviet forces went into Afghanistan there was a security and our men going out on patrol and being considerable number of unreported demonstrations by shot dead by the Taliban. the families of soldiers who had died there, and that there is a huge memorial movement within Russia today The Select Committee’s excellent and thorough report on behalf of those who are still not recognised for the contains an account of a fine passage of questioning, sacrifices they made? which resulted in a most extraordinary confession by the Foreign Secretary. Committee members were trying Mr MacShane: Yes, indeed. That conflict contributed to find out who is actually taking decisions on Afghanistan, to the undermining of the Soviet Union, but in the very and specifically in this instance the announcement to worst sense, in that it required the senseless sacrifice of withdraw—or retreat—by 2015. Please can we avoid the a lot of young Russian men finally to persuade absurd new euphemism of “draw-down”? It is a retreat Mr Gorbachev and his new Soviet leaders that the and a withdrawal; that is what it is, so let us revert to action in Afghanistan had to come to an end. In some plain English. The Foreign Secretary said that that ways, I wish that we had been able to defeat communism decision was taken collectively in the National Security in Vietnam, because the period after the retreat of the Council. My right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry United States was a horribly cruel one in Vietnam—we North East (Mr Ainsworth) asked whether the Defence saw what happened with the boat people, the re-education Secretary had been consulted, and the Foreign Secretary camps and the killings and tortures. But there was no replied: question of our remaining longer in the vain hope that “I am sure the Defence Secretary was consulted, but I cannot we could have created a more stable, orderly or democratic tell you when everybody was consulted. You would have to ask regime. the Prime Minister.” The Select Committee’s report stated: The Committee Chairman asked whether the Foreign “We welcome the Government’s attempt to engage more pro- Secretary could confirm actively”— “that the decision wasn’t actually made in the Council.” I never know what that adverb means— The Foreign Secretary said: “with parliamentarians on Afghanistan.” “It wasn’t a formal item in the National Security Council.” That might interest the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker, This gives a fascinating insight into the mechanism of because I understand that a new poem is doing the government. Where was the decision taken—by whom rounds there. It goes as follows, “From Kandahar to and how? We know it was no longer taken on a sofa, but Kabul, the whispers grow and grow, stand by Pashtuns 1597 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1598

[Mr MacShane] Several hon. Members rose— and Tajiks, here comes Mr Speaker Bercow.” We will see Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We whether our Speaker is going to be the magic solution are running out of time and I have eight Members and whether he will be sent down there to spread wishing to speak. I want to get everybody in, so will lightness and parliamentary tolerance among the peoples Members be courteous to each other and try to limit the of Afghanistan. I do not think that anybody can move a length of their speeches? immediate amendment and call a Division on that subject—[Interruption.] Perhaps one of his deputies 5.37 pm would be more appropriate. Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): It would be When I talk about “the west” I mean the broad foolish for anyone to suggest that NATO had not made family of democracies—north America, Europe, and foolish mistakes with regard to Afghanistan in recent our friends in Canada, Australia, Japan and South years, or that the matter will come to a conclusion in the Korea. As long as the west is mired in Afghanistan, we way that would have been hoped. It is equally unwise, will not be able to promote our core interest now, which however, for the right hon. Member for Rotherham is to recover economic strength and to recover confidence (Mr MacShane) to suggest that the withdrawal of troops in the need to have an adequate security profile against from Afghanistan will simply constitute a retreat, or for the rise of authoritarian powers, which are arming fast, the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) to say which might, at some stage, threaten our interests and that the whole presence in Afghanistan has been an which, because we are lost in the wildernesses of west unqualified failure. Asia, we are unable to see coming over the horizon. Let me go back to the point that the House was In the few years after America withdrew from Vietnam reminded of by my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon things were unclear, but for the 20 years after 1980 America and Billericay (Mr Baron): we went into Afghanistan to led the world in many ways. It did so economically, in ensure that the country could not be used again as a inventing new forms of technology and in expanding base by the Taliban. One only has to ask whether it was many human freedoms to do with personal liberty and ever possible or realistic in the immediate aftermath of respect for multicultural and multi-ethnic cohabitation. 9/11 for us not to have seen international action, given Right now, America is bogged down in this wretched the Taliban’s refusal to deny sanctuary to al-Qaeda as a war. The UK is a minor ally of America and the sooner continuing base for terrorist operations at that time. we are out of this war, the better. I sincerely say to those The decision made at that time, with the unqualified on the Treasury Bench that if they look at history, they approval of the United Nations Security Council, was will find that it has very often been the Conservative the right one, and we should never lose sight of that party that has had a greater sense of geopolitical reality fact. Mistakes have been made since then, as my hon. than some of the opposing parties and has known when Friend has rightly pointed out, but the question today is enough was enough. I would like us out before 2015. not whether it was all a mistake but how we can Finally, the title of the report we are debating is “The maintain what has already been achieved. UK’s foreign policy approach to Afghanistan and I agree with those on both sides of the House who Pakistan”. It is very detailed on Afghanistan, and I have said that al-Qaeda is now effectively out of congratulate the Committee on that, but it does not in Afghanistan. It is no longer able to use that country as a any way address foreign policy towards Pakistan. Pakistan base, so there is no long-term rationale for the presence hardly gets a mention and is seen only in relation to of combat troops there. That does not mean, however, Afghanistan. That might be the way in which the title of that the matter is now entirely resolved. The question the report was chosen—I am not criticising the members now is: how do we leave in a way that will not enable of the Committee—but we need a policy on Pakistan al-Qaeda to return? At the moment, we do not know and part of that must involve telling the truth to our whether by the time we leave there will be a coalition great friends in India. As long as they have 500,000 people Government including the Taliban, or peace in in an oppressive occupation of part of the region—I am Afghanistan—in which case we can be relatively relaxed choosing my words carefully—called Kashmir, there that there will be no future for al-Qaeda there. It is will be no possibility that the people or the Government equally possible either that the Taliban will not agree to and military of Pakistan, however constituted, will not a coalition Government and that we will leave without see that as a direct threat to their identity and national their being part of a joint agreement, or that they will interest. If 500,000 armed soldiers are camped on a be part of a coalition but will have their own agenda, country’s western border, that is where that country will which will be one that will not give us comfort. have to put its troops. Although I welcomed what the Prime Minister said Until we ask India to take a new approach to Kashmir today and have no difficulties with it so far as it went, it and to take it off one of the world’s fault lines, we will seemed to me that it left open certain serious gaps. He not be in any position to ask Pakistan to take a new and said that as far as the Government are concerned, our more helpful approach on Afghanistan or on other future relationship with Afghanistan after the withdrawal issues. The western world, if I might use that term—the of our ground forces will be based on our diplomatic, Euro-Atlantic world, let us say—has spent too long in developmental and trade relationships. He said that the majority Muslim countries creating giant armies. Whatever only military dimension would be the support we would the motives for sending those armies originally, they are give to the development of a military academy. All of making matters worse. It is time to get out. I want to that is very sensible and desirable, but we have to ask spare the Prime Minister, with his many problems, from about something that is not just a British problem, but ever again having to stand at that Dispatch Box to primarily a problem for the United States. How can we lament the loss of a British soldier’s life in a conflict of help to ensure that an Afghan Government who may which we should no longer be part. not have full control of all the territory of Afghanistan 1599 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1600 when we have withdrawn will be able to prevent the use I believe that the real concern—this goes back to the of parts of the country that they might be unable to struggles that there have been over Afghanistan for control, even with their fullest efforts, as a base for 150 to 200 years—is about Afghanistan’s future status. terrorist operations? Of course the Russians and the Chinese will not wish to I believe that the international community, including see Afghanistan as some American client state—why Russia and China, should be arguing for two things. should they?—but there is no need for that to happen. It First, we should be asking for the basis of the withdrawal should not happen, and it must not be allowed to of combat forces to lead also to an agreement with the happen. Equally, Afghanistan will not be strong enough Afghan Government, because this can happen only to defend itself without maximum international regional with their support and agreement, and preferably to a support from its neighbours—not just Russia and China, treaty sanctified by the United Nations, for the continuing but India, Pakistan and Iran, all of which have an facility of air support for the Afghan Government if interest in the situation, and all of which could live with that should prove necessary. If there are areas of a truly neutral Afghanistan that was not the client state Afghanistan that the Government do not control, and if of any of the big powers. there is evidence that those areas have been infiltrated We must not see the withdrawal of combat forces as by al-Qaeda, we should have the legal authority—in the end of international military involvement. I hope co-operation with the Afghan Government and through that it will be, but there has to be a fall-back position if the use of special forces and other means—to eliminate a terrorist threat re-emerges. The real solution is a that threat if and when it arises. combination of a treaty arrangement with the Afghan We must remember that when the Taliban Government Government combined with an international status for were eliminated, that was done not by NATO ground Afghanistan, which the Afghan Government would forces but by air power combined with Afghan Northern welcome; they have already said that they would be Alliance ground forces. In exactly the same way, at the interested in and attracted by such a proposal. That end of current operations when all of our combat would give the kind of political and military security troops are withdrawn, having Afghan ground forces, that ought to give confidence. which will be very strong, with the back-up of potential air support and the potential deployment of special Mr Baron: Does my right hon. and learned Friend forces purely to deal with terrorist threats, will be the agree that the best way of achieving progress in talks way to provide the long-term security that the right with the Taliban is to make those talks unconditional? hon. Member for Rotherham seemed to doubt would be available. Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I do not have any privileged In the light of your comments, Mr Deputy Speaker, I information, but I am pretty certain that they already shall keep my comments very brief, but there is a second are. Whatever the formal public position, there is no proposal that should also be part of the international doubt that talks are going on and that Americans have response. We know that Russia and China are just as been involved in discussions with the Taliban. I bet that concerned about a premature withdrawal from Afghanistan they were not simply discussing what the agenda would as NATO or the west might be—for obvious reasons, be or what preconditions would apply. It is a slow given their own domestic and internal problems. What steady process, and I am sure that it has begun. It is needed for Afghanistan, as part of that country’s should have begun some time ago, and I hope that it future, is an internationally recognised declaration of leads to progress, but we cannot assume that it will do neutrality. Afghanistan should become a neutral state, so. Even with the best will on our part, there is no rather in the way that Austria became a neutral state certainty that the Taliban will wish to co-operate. They in 1955 as a way of ensuring the withdrawal of the may think that they can win without such an agreement, Soviet forces from that country and the ability of that so we have to have a structure in place, both internationally country to develop in peace. Austria is now in a and among western countries, that takes into account situation very different from that of Afghanistan. Only all the possibilities, including the Taliban not being by having regional support for an independent Afghanistan willing to co-operate. that cannot give sanctuary to terrorist forces will we have the level of confidence that we need to produce the 5.45 pm desired result. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): I am grateful for the opportunity to make a contribution. Mr MacShane: I am conscious that others want to I had not planned to speak, but having listened to speak, but may I gently put it to the right hon. and speeches from Government and Opposition Members, I learned Gentleman, for whom I have immense respect felt compelled to bring some sanity to our discussions. when it comes to foreign affairs, that China and the Kremlin might not be totally unhappy to see America I am a member of the Select Committee on Defence, and the west bogged down as badly as we are in and I have decided not to read the report by the Select Afghanistan? Committee on Foreign Affairs because, as the House will know, we are producing our own report on Afghanistan Sir Malcolm Rifkind: For other reasons, the right and I thought that it might prejudice our inquiry—although hon. Gentleman might be right, but we are not going to I accept that there is probably a debate to be had about get bogged down because there will be a withdrawal of why two august Select Committees are doing reports on NATO forces. The Russians have said publicly, through the same subject almost at the same time. the Foreign Minister, that a premature NATO withdrawal My right hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham from Afghanistan would be a disaster, so they are (Mr MacShane), who has left the Chamber, discussed, obviously concerned about the power vacuum that could in a speech that did not just span 40 years but which result. seemed to go on for 40 years, the art of stopping the 1601 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1602

[Thomas Docherty] There is a simple hypothetical question that the House may wish to consider: what if, as we get to the end of war. Perhaps I am being naive, but the way to do that is 2014, President Karzai says to President Obama and by winning the war, not by pulling out because we do Prime Minister Cameron, who I expect will still be not particularly like how it is going in the short term. I Prime Minister at that point, “We’re almost there but am slightly confused because I found myself agreeing we need another six weeks, or another two months”? more than would normally be the case with the right My understanding is that President Obama has made it hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm clear that there would be an element of flexibility. Our Rifkind), who offered a great deal of common sense on Government have said that there is absolutely no flexibility. the situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I think we need a plan B, and we need to have an The Defence Committee had the opportunity to visit element of flexibility built in, so that if it is a matter of the United States a couple of months ago, and we spent extra weeks, or even a couple of months, a small number a week or so at various locations, including US Central of combat troops may stay. Command, the Pentagon and Norfolk. We were privileged to visit the Walter Reed hospital, where we met a John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): I share number of what the Americans call wounded warriors— some concerns about the current strategy. Given that their very brave men and women who have suffered the support for the Taliban is, to some extent, a reaction life-changing injuries. The Committee was overwhelmed to the presence of occupying forces, what would the not just by the courage and sacrifice of those very hon. Gentleman define as completion? young men and women but by the fact that many of them were determined, despite the horrific injuries that Thomas Docherty: As I said earlier, completion of the they had suffered, to go back to Afghanistan, both to mission is training up the Afghan national security be with their comrades in arms and because they genuinely forces to the level of troops and police that can take believed, despite what they had been through, that it forward their own security. It is not about defeating the was a fight worth having. If they did not see it through, Taliban. It is about leaving Afghanistan in a stable the sacrifices that they and their friends had made condition. would have been for naught. I was humbled by our meeting with those brave men and women. 5.51 pm On our visit we also met General Mattis and General Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): There have been Allen, with whom the Foreign Affairs Committee and some fascinating contributions to the debate, not least others in the House will be familiar. It is fair to say that the eloquent and expert contribution by the right hon. we were pleased when President Obama announced and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind). that General Allen would succeed General Petraeus as I start by doing what many others have done in the commander in Afghanistan. If there is a lesson from the Chamber many times, but is still worth doing—paying past 10 years, it is that continuity of command is tribute to our armed forces and, in particular, to those crucial. There is no point in changing senior personnel who have lost their lives. I would like to make special and strategy every two or three years, whether in the mention of Colour Serjeant Kevin Fortuna, who went military or in political leadership, and I hope that the to school in my constituency and who lost his life not Prime Minister will think carefully before he makes any that long ago in Afghanistan. I do not think that he moves in the next three years while the job moves died in vain. The presence of Colour Serjeant Fortuna towards completion. and many others helps to achieve the central aim of our I am uncomfortable with the Prime Minister’s presence in Afghanistan, which is to protect the security statement this afternoon about withdrawal. There is an of this country, but has also increased the chances of inconsistency in his logic. On the one hand he talked Afghanistan being a more stable and peaceful country about conditions and progress, but he gave an arbitrary at some stage in the future. If it is not a perfect democracy, unilateral date of 31 December 2014, which sets a that was never one of the core aims of our intervention. calendar against which the Taliban can measure progress. That is why I am slightly puzzled by some elements of We should withdraw because the conditions allow us to the Foreign Affairs Committee’s report. It makes a do so, and because we have completed the missions on couple of highly controversial claims. It states that the which we set out. core justification of the UK presence, which was the threat posed to national security by al-Qaeda in particular, Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) was removed some time ago, but somewhat contradictorily, (LD): I share the hon. Gentleman’s general concern it suggests that the security situation is still precarious. about an arbitrary time line, but if the US has set an The right hon. and learned Member for Kensington arbitrary time line, given how dependent we are on the made exactly the right answer to that, which was that Americans’ scale of operation there, surely we have even if that was true, and even if al-Qaeda has been little choice but to match their arbitrary time line. massively damaged in its capacity to regain control of Thomas Docherty: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s Afghanistan, we still have to find a way of extricating point, and I shall respond briefly to it. It is not often ourselves from the position we are in now in a way that that I say this, but the US has been more nuanced than maximises the Afghan Government and society’s chances we have. It is not something that the Americans do of stability and peace. We cannot simply walk out. particularly well, and I am not sure that many of them The report also suggests that there were wider secondary can spell the word, but they have said that although that aims that have now proved unachievable, one of which is their goal and they are beginning to pull out their was the defeat of the Taliban. Again, I am not sure that surge troops, they are not absolutely committed to their that was ever one of the core aims. The idea was to end date. increase the capacity of the Afghan national security 1603 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1604 forces to contain and manage the security situation terrorist attacks as the main threat to life, 57% said themselves. That is still an important aim as we proceed suicide bombing was never justified, and there was through withdrawal. support for military operations by the Pakistani army. Rather paradoxically, the report goes on to query the The BBC World Service was rated highly as a source of 2015 deadline for withdrawal, but accepts that it has information, and the same kind of attention was given concentrated minds. That is an important function of to issues such as education and schools as we would deadlines, but in some ways the debate has moved on, expect to find among people all over the world. especially after the Prime Minister’s announcement earlier today of further troop reductions. Quite a few hon. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): Members have pointed out the hard-headed realism Will the hon. Gentleman give way? that is needed, and the fact that we are not in a leadership position in Afghanistan—a role that effectively falls to Martin Horwood: I cannot, because of the time and the Americans, as we have only one 10th the number of because I am drawing my remarks to a close. forces that they have there. That leadership will inevitably We must have a realistic approach, but in some senses pass at some stage to the Afghan Government and the a more optimistic one, that accepts that the whole people themselves. Therefore, the troop reductions that debate on Afghanistan is moving into a different phase, the Prime Minister announced today are not only right but in which we are still determined to support the but inevitable. stability and peace of Afghan society. Political reconciliation ought to be part of the process that we encourage as the withdrawal takes place, which 5.58 pm is something that liberals and democrats might find Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): We are difficult to accept. Would we have wanted political leaving, and that is a very difficult and painful fact. We reconciliation with our enemies in previous wars? Has are not leaving entirely, but we are leaving combat political reconciliation worked everywhere else it has operations, as the Prime Minister has made clear. It is been tried—in Zimbabwe, for example? If we support the correct decision, but it has troubling implications, democracy, should we not defend it at all costs and because the underlying logic is that we will cease combat recognise that there are non-Pashtun political leaders in operations by the end of 2014 even if human rights are Afghanistan who really do not want reconciliation with not established, even if al-Qaeda is not defeated and the Taliban at this stage? even if the Taliban are not defeated. Why is this difficult? I think that there is a role for political reconciliation It is difficult because the military, both in the United if some of the points made in the report and elsewhere States and in the United Kingdom, fundamentally do are acknowledged, including the importance of recognising not agree. the regional context and finding a solution that takes I have calculated that I have been in and out of into account not only Pakistan and Iran, but India and Afghanistan 57 times since 2001, and consistently every Russia, and approaches the region on a wider scale. It general has said, “It’s been a tough situation but we should also encourage a political solution that recognises have a new strategic plan requiring new resources, and the complexity and diversity of Afghan society, its this year will be the decisive year.” It was said in 2003 by highly tribal structure and perhaps the need for less General McNeill; General Barno said in 2004 said that control from Kabul and a more decentralised approach. that would be the decisive year; General Abizaid also In that situation, such an approach to political reconciliation said 2004 would be the decisive year; 2005 was described might be, as the hon. Member for Croydon South by General Richards, now Chief of the Defence Staff, (Richard Ottaway) described it, distasteful but worthwhile. as the crunch year for the Taliban; 2006 was described It might not be successful, but in a regional context and by General McNeill, returning, as the decisive year; with an attention to complexity and diversity, it might 2007 was described by General McKiernan as the decisive become more likely. year; at the end of 2008, General Stanley McChrystal The UK’s role must be to support development, and said that they were knee-deep into the decisive year, and preferably not just in militarily volatile areas, to support this was echoed by General Petraeus in 2009; our former the institutions of government and society—such support Foreign Secretary described 2010 as the decisive year; ought to be, if anything, increasing—and to do whatever and 2011 was described by Guido Westerwelle, the we can to embed universal human rights in Afghan German Foreign Minister, as the decisive year. politics and society, especially the rights of women, Why is it difficult to challenge the military orthodoxy? while accepting that ultimately that will not be our job, It is difficult for real and moving reasons. It is difficult and that those responsibilities will have to pass to the because we have lost a lot of people—we have lost a lot Afghans themselves. of lives and spent a lot of money; it is difficult because We have to encourage the same thing in the border we have made promises to the Afghan people; and it is areas of Pakistan. I commend to the Minister an difficult because we have developed great fears about extraordinary report that recently landed on my desk, Afghanistan, fears about our own national security, produced by an organisation called the Community fears about Pakistan and fears about our credibility and Appraisal and Motivation Programme, which I am reputation in the world. happy to say is funded by the British high commission. Therefore, when a politician meets a general with a That extremely revealing report explores in great detail row of medals on his chest, coming in and saying, “Just opinions in the federally administered frontier tribal give me another two years”—exactly what General areas of Pakistan. It shows that there is, unfortunately, Petraeus is saying at the moment—“don’t drop the a high degree of hostility to British and American troop levels, and we can guarantee that we will reach a policy, but far from universal support for extremist or situation where the Taliban will never be able to come Salafist militancy. Of the respondents, 42% identified back,” it is very difficult to disagree. 1605 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1606

[Rory Stewart] We are not a nation of crusades or great ideological wars, but a nation characterised by scepticism, pragmatism Withdrawing is the most difficult thing. In Vietnam, and deep country knowledge. If we get the withdrawal and in Afghanistan for the Soviet Union, more troops right, it will not go down in history as a symbol of were lost after the decision to withdraw than in the ignorance or cowardice, but will represent our wisdom entire period leading up to the decision. By 1968, the and our courage in sticking to the decision. There United States had come out of an election determined should be a realisation that our motto should be and to withdraw from Vietnam, and Henry Kissinger was must remain, “Passionate moderation”. obsessed, as we are now, with a political settlement with the enemy. He begged the North Vietnamese to give him 6.6 pm the political terms that would allow him to withdraw with honour. Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory After Gorbachev made the decision to leave Afghanistan Stewart) has been to Afghanistan on 57 occasions, as he in 1986, more Soviet troops were committed to a surge told us. That is 56 occasions more than me. Nevertheless, and more Soviet troops were killed, because of the real I have a few ideas about campaigning there. When faced problems of fear, credibility and loss. So the Prime with a deadly insurgency, one has three options: to Minister is absolutely right to set a firm date for withdrawal. counter it, contain it or quit. We have been trying to Let us hope that by the end of 2014 we have achieved counter it and now we are going to quit. It seemed to be the things that we are looking for. Let us hope—I, too, the nub of my hon. Friend’s eloquent contribution that join in this hope—that the Taliban have been defeated, those are the only two alternatives. that al-Qaeda can never again come back, that human I believe that NATO’s Afghan strategy has a fatal rights have been established, that the Afghan Government flaw: the knowledge that however effective our efforts are credible, effective and legitimate, that the Afghan may be, we plan to quit. That signals to the Taliban that national army and police are able to look after themselves, they will ultimately win and removes their incentive to and that there is no risk from Pakistan. negotiate the political deal that we all agree is what Let us hope. I fear that those things may not be must end an insurgency. President Obama and my right achievable, but we need to have the courage to go ahead hon. Friend the Prime Minister have set a time limit for regardless at the end of 2014. We need to have the the current surge. British troops, as we have heard many courage to say that we must leave at the end of 2014 times today, will no longer fight after 2014. By then, the regardless because—this is the very difficult thing to Afghans should be self-sufficient. That is the theory, say—we no longer believe that we are likely to achieve but as we all know, the key question is, “What if they those objectives. If we have not achieved those objectives are not?” by the end of 2014 and the general comes back, as the Is there a third way to be found between full-scale hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas counter-insurgency campaigning, which is what the generals Docherty) suggests, and says, “Just give me another two have been doing all along, and total withdrawal when weeks,” or, “Just give me another two months, it’s all the deadlines are reached? In other words, instead of going to be fine,” in the end we have to say no. countering or quitting, should we be containing? Some Why do we not say no? We do not say no because it is say, and I have heard it said this afternoon, that the horrible—because if I were to stand up in this House, long-term use of special forces will be enough by itself for example, and say, “Afghanistan matters, but there to underpin a post-surge Afghan Government. That are other countries that matter more,” that, “If we are seems to me inherently improbable. As I have argued worried about terrorism, Pakistan is more important,” before, and as I continue to argue—completely unavailingly and that, “If we are worried about regional stability, in the United Kingdom, but perhaps with a degree Egypt is more important,” there would immediately be more resonance on the other side of the Atlantic—what a headline, perhaps in The Sun, declaring “MP says is required when the surge concludes is a strategic base Afghanistan doesn’t matter.” A flag-draped coffin would and bridgehead area, or SBBA, to secure our strategic be produced, and the mother of a veteran would step needs permanently. forward and say, “The suggestion is that they died in There are only two sound reasons for NATO’s military vain.” presence in Afghanistan: to prevent the country from I met the same situation last week, talking to Afghanistan being used again as a base, training ground or launch-pad veterans. A man sitting in the front row was missing for terrorist attacks, which has been mentioned many both his legs, and somebody in the audience said, “Are times today, and to assist next-door Pakistan in preventing you suggesting that we have made no progress? Have any possibility of its nuclear weapons falling into the you not acknowledged what we have done in Helmand? hands of al-Qaeda or its imitators, which I do not Have you not seen that the bazaar is now open? Are you believe has been mentioned today. The following three suggesting that people died in vain?” We have to learn objectives, though desirable, are not adequate reasons to say that no single soldier dies in vain, regardless. The for our presence in Afghanistan: the creation of a courage, commitment and honour of our soldiers is tolerant and democratic society, the prevention of drug connected to their unit and their regiment, not to the production, and the advancement of the human rights fantasies of politicians. We must pay them every form of women. Full-scale counter-insurgency campaigning, of honour and respect, but we do not honour dead often referred to as war down among the people, involves soldiers by piling more corpses on top of them. micro-management of the threatened society. As such, To conclude, it is difficult for Britain to lead a withdrawal it enables the pursuit of worthy goals such as those. By from Afghanistan. We need to make it something that contrast, a strategic base and bridgehead area cannot acknowledges that Britain’s pride and reputation has secure such goals, but it can achieve both of our genuine never been connected with extreme ideological projects. strategic interests. During the period of grace provided 1607 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1608 by the surge deployment, an existing base area should I wish to pay tribute to Rifleman Martin Lamb, who be selected, or a new one constructed, in a remote area recently died. He was a constituent of mine who was out of sight and largely out of mind of the Afghan serving his country bravely and correctly, and we remember population. him appropriately. It is often said—in fact, I have lost count of the The next person whom I wish to mention is my right number of times it has been said—that there can be no hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington purely military solution in Afghanistan, and that eventually (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), because I agree that it is very a political deal must be done. Yet there is no basis for important for us to consider the international approach. such a deal under our existing strategy. The deadlines It is what we do next that matters, and we need to for scaling down and ending our military presence will prepare the ground now. I want to talk briefly about the certainly put pressure on the Afghan Government to Helsinki accords, the process that they led to and the compromise with reconcilable elements of the Taliban, process of getting to them, and see where the parallels but they will have the opposite effect on the insurgents. might be with the situation in the region that we are The creation of an impregnable, long-term SBBA would discussing today. enable pressure to be applied equally on both sides, and Very bravely, Gerald Ford signed those accords as would confer many benefits, which I will summarise President of the United States when neither he nor the very briefly. idea of détente were at their most popular in the US. First, any return of international terrorists could be Nevertheless, off he went to complete the process, which punished without having to re-invade the country.Secondly, involved 35 states. Many had views that were not consistent any assistance needed by the Pakistan Government to with one another, and many had a huge number of secure its nuclear arsenal could be provided via the reasons to disagree with their neighbours. long-term strategic base. Thirdly, NATO would be almost Three baskets of themes were captured in those accords, completely disengaged from Afghan society, thus removing the first of which was security. The idea was to give the constant irritant of a uniformed infidel presence in other member states the confidence that their military the towns and countryside. position and security issues would be treated fairly and Fourthly, the ending of micro-management would do justly. That would be achieved largely by states notifying away with the need to send service personnel out on one another what would happen. vulnerable patrols, along predictable routes, which can The second basket was politics and the production of easily be targeted. Fifthly, the balance of political and good governance—we should remember the governance military forces in Afghanistan would be allowed to find of some of those states at that time, and certainly, for its own level. If the worst happened and the Taliban example, Romania. Good governance was an important took over, we would still have the strategic base and part of the Helsinki accords, but it is also an element bridgehead area as a safeguard. Sixthly, the prospect of that we need to deliver in Afghanistan and elsewhere. an SBBA would make it more likely that the Taliban would reach a deal with the Government. If the eventual The third basket was culture and human rights. Oddly outcome were nevertheless a more radical regime than enough, the third basket turned out to be the most NATO would like, that would be a matter for the influential. Many commentators will now say that the Afghans alone as long as they offered no support to Helsinki accords suggested to repressed people in those international terrorists. Finally, an SBBA could be 35 states—obviously, I am talking in the main about garrisoned by as many or as few service personnel as the eastern Europe—that we would give them the comfort political and military situation dictated. Too remote to and space to develop their interest in having human attack, it would be a deterrent to extremism and a rights. bridgehead for easy entry and operations if, regrettably, If we extend those three baskets, and in particular the they become necessary under a policy of containment. third one, to Afghanistan, Pakistan and—critically—their It suits al-Qaeda to embroil us in Muslim states, as it other neighbours, we could engage them in a way that did most calculatedly in Afghanistan in September 2001. gives shape to their security and traction to better That was why, 48 hours before the attacks in America, governance, and that starts to equip their people with General Massoud was assassinated by al-Qaeda. It the idea that they have space to develop their human wanted us to, and knew perfectly well that we would, rights. That model—it cannot be exactly the same as respond by invading Afghanistan. That was why it that of 30 or 40 years ago—could be a framework for removed him. international co-operation and for involving the various Costly counter-insurgency cannot be our answer states that we need to involve. That is the kind of thing every time our enemies establish a presence in a different that would be of interest as we move towards a new country; but there is an alternative to the extremes of phase of politics. micro-management, which is what we have been doing, and total withdrawal, which is what we say we are going to Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? do next. That alternative is containment, and the means of doing it is a strategic base and bridgehead area. Neil Carmichael: I would prefer not to, but if the hon. Gentleman is quick, I will. 6.13 pm Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): It is a great honour Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman makes an to follow my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest important point, and it may apply in unexpected areas. East (Dr Lewis). I agree completely with my hon. One of the points made by the Community Appraisal Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory and Motivation Programme report, which I cited earlier, Stewart) in recognising that we need a definite date for is that the frontier areas of Pakistan have never been withdrawal. fully integrated into Pakistani democratic politics. In 1609 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1610

[Martin Horwood] power sharing, rather than just negotiation, it is right that we ask ourselves: what are our red lines on women’s effect, they still have the post-British colonial style of rights? What are our red lines on minority rights within military administration. That has isolated people in Afghanistan? Are we going to ensure that any Afghan those areas from mainstream politics, and indeed from Government that includes the Taliban maintains freedom the enjoyment of full human rights of the kind that he of worship and continues to develop democracy within is describing. its borders? The repudiation of violence is, of course, the first Neil Carmichael: That is exactly right. Another interesting step to legitimising the Taliban, but it is not the only thing about the Helsinki accords is that, oddly enough, step that they need to take and it should not be the only they recognised frontiers that had not been properly line that the UK Government should push in discussions. recognised before. The accords also enabled those frontiers We owe it to those 375 members of our armed forces to to be changed through peaceful means. Funnily enough, ensure that we deliver in Afghanistan the kind of that mechanism was used by the two German states that environment that we ourselves would want to live in. were unified in 1990. That is a parallel of what the hon. Gentleman says, although the situation is not precisely Paul Flynn: The hon. Gentleman has described in the same. these red lines an Afghanistan that never existed in the We should go down that route and look at the processes past 2,000 years. Is there not a great danger that our that were involved in the accords. We should ask who beliefs and our aim of securing these rights are so would participate and how far the region would extend. unobtainable that they will delay the peace process? My belief is that it should be pretty big, and that we should think in terms of 20 or more states in the area. Stephen Gilbert: The Afghan constitution enshrines The UK, the US, and Russia and China ought to be those rights. I am not seeking anything more or less involved in the process too. than what is already in that constitution. I simply want That is a big project and it will not happen overnight—it to ensure that we do not move backwards by involving will not happen very quickly at all. Most people would in the government of Afghanistan parties that might recognise that the Helsinki accords took an awful long seek to go back rather than forwards. time to produce anything, but produce something they did. The process worked. It enabled nation states to Martin Horwood: My hon. Friend is making many start understanding one another, to build better governance, important points. In response to the hon. Member for and above all, to respect and promote human rights. Newport West (Paul Flynn), is it not the case that if That is the basis on which we should start, and it would the Arab spring, the Arab awakening, has taught us be interesting to see how such a process unfolds if we anything, it is that these universal human rights and develop that policy. aspirations are present in every population? It is slightly patronising to regard them as inappropriate for some 6.19 pm countries, even in places where we know that a perfect Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): It is liberal democracy is not going to emerge in the short a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for term. Stroud (Neil Carmichael) because, in putting human rights at the heart of the long-term stability of Afghanistan, Stephen Gilbert: As always, my hon. Friend makes a he touched on an issue that I raised with the Prime perfectly valid point. I have spoken in the House several Minister earlier today about the preconditions that we times about the hope that the Arab spring is delivering might put not on talks—I agree with my hon. Friend to generations of people who have been excluded from the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) the rights that we take for granted. that talks should be open and without conditions—but As the right hon. Member for Rotherham on power sharing. (Mr MacShane) disappeared into Vietnam, you might The Afghanistan operation was legitimatised by the forgive me for mentioning Iraq briefly, Madam Deputy United Nations and was in this country’s national interest. Speaker. We failed in Iraq; we made fundamental mistakes: Like my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin de-Ba’athification, disarmament of the local militia Horwood), I pay tribute to the 375 members of our and army, and demobilisation of a civic society. They armed forces who have lost their lives in that part of the were the wrong choices to take, and it took Iraqi society world. This country has spent billions of pounds on the years to recover from them. To get Afghanistan right we operation and committed itself to the mission in that need to learn those lessons. We need to ensure that we region for more than a decade. That gives value to the do not undermine Afghanistan’s society as it stands. nation’s overall commitment to delivering both our security and a better future. Rory Stewart: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman The Foreign Affairs Committee report makes it clear might like to reflect on whether US expenditure of that UK operations and those of the international $125 billion a year and the presence of nearly 150,000 community have led to some tactical successes on the foreign troops are not likely to undermine local capacity ground, but the situation overall remains precarious. and Afghan society in exactly the ways that he is warning The military surge has no doubt played a key part in against. that, but it is not sufficient. The Prime Minister was right when he said today that we now need a political Stephen Gilbert: My hon. Friend makes a perfectly surge. That political surge should be Afghan-led, however. valid point, which is why I was encouraged by what our It is right that initial conversations are being had with right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said earlier the Taliban. However, when we look to a future of today. For every member of our forces leaving, there 1611 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1612 will be two local people taking those responsibilities Stephen Gilbert: I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman forward. If I may touch briefly on recommendation 35 has managed to get his point on the record. As he in the report— knows, I was not in the House at the time. My position is that the Iraq conflict lacked international legitimacy Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will and post-conflict reconstruction, and was a distraction the hon. Gentleman give way? from our important work in Afghanistan, which was in the national interest and did have legitimacy from the Stephen Gilbert: No, I will not. United Nations. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be generous to me in future, as I allowed him to put his Mr Sheerman: This is a very important point. point on the record. We as a country have an international obligation to Stephen Gilbert: No, I am afraid I will not. spend 2% of GDP on our defence. Over this Parliament Mr Sheerman: I am sorry, but— we will fall short of that. Never again must we allow our forces to cry out that they lack helicopters, body armour, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. boots or protective vests. Our role in this place is to be The hon. Gentleman has said several times that he will clear about the policy objectives, clear about the need to not give way. resource them properly and confident in our military’s capability to deliver those outcomes. Stephen Gilbert: I note that the hon. Gentleman has not been in the Chamber for the debate— 6.29 pm Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): We fully recognise Mr Sheerman: The hon. Gentleman was very how the extraordinary events of the past few days have disagreeable— impacted on the length of this debate and possibly on the attention that it will receive outside the House. It is Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. It is up to the Member probably true that who is speaking whether he wishes to give way to “The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say another Member, and the hon. Gentleman has said that here” he is not going to give way because of the time pressures. today, but this debate is important, not least for those who have served, who have been injured and who have Stephen Gilbert: Thank you very much, Madam Deputy died in the conflict in Afghanistan. Speaker. In the final minutes I want to look at some of In the time available to me, I want to deal with three the lessons that the report suggests we can learn for our main issues. The first is the prospects for Afghanistan actions and activities in Libya. The report says that we and, as I stressed in our debate on this subject in May, need a co-ordinated approach to post-conflict stabilisation, the role of the regional powers. The second significant which is something that we have perhaps not succeeded issue is the impact of all these developments on the in adopting in all the instances where our forces have stability of Pakistan. Finally, I want to talk about the been deployed in the past, particularly Iraq and report—and more significantly, the Government’s response Afghanistan. If we are truly to deliver a legacy in Libya to it—and the provision of equipment for our troops. that is worth the risks that our brave men and women As I have said, we debated this subject less than a are taking in that country, recommendation 35, which couple of months ago. We have to address the tragedy deals with the need for co-ordinated action, is crucial. of Afghanistan under Taliban rule and insurgency, and We cannot have Departments squabbling over who is ask what our best approach is to enabling Afghanistan leading on post-conflict Libya or from which budgets and its people to come out of this nightmare. post-conflict Libya will be helped. Departments need to work together and with their international colleagues. Interestingly, a number of Members of both Houses That is one of the key lessons that we can take from this recently visited the exhibition at the British Museum on debate. early Afghanistan, which presented a very different picture from the TV coverage showing a dusty wilderness Overall, the report—along with our international and a population living in the middle ages. The exhibition commitment—makes it clear that we as a nation cannot showed early Afghanistan as an ancient centre of civilisation choose the history we live in to meet our budgets; with a significant position at the crossroads of the rather, our budgets must be capable of meeting the ancient world and a rich cultural tradition. For an history in which we find ourselves. We are a member of example, one has only to think of the Buddhas of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, and I am concerned Bamiyan, which were constructed in the sixth century that our contribution to that organisation will fall over and, sadly, destroyed by the vandals of the Taliban. In the course of this Parliament to below the international the Prime Minister’s statement today, he also drew minimum standard of 1.9%. Never again must the attention to many of Afghanistan’s strengths, including forces that we deploy be short of the tools that they abundant mineral wealth, fertile agricultural land and a need to do their jobs. position at the crossroads of Asia’s great trading highways. Mr Sheerman: I just want to explain why I was trying Mr MacShane: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, up to intervene. The hon. Gentleman made the sweeping until about 1970, a Marks & Spencer was open and statement that we failed in Iraq. I was in the House at functioning in Kabul? Should it be an objective of the time and voted for the Iraq war, and I do not believe British foreign policy to get M&S back there? that what we did to remove Saddam Hussein was a failure. The hon. Gentleman said that Iraq was a failure; Mr Spellar: Similarly, the symbol of the end of the I do not believe it was right for him to say that this cold war was the appearance of McDonald’s in many afternoon. capitals in eastern Europe. 1613 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1614

[Mr Spellar] means least, to engage in dialogue to reduce tension with India, which occupies so much attention and resources We should also remember how much of Afghanistan’s in both countries. My right hon. Friend the Member for ancient civilisation was destroyed by nihilist tribes, in a Rotherham (Mr MacShane) mentioned the Indian pattern not dissimilar to what is happening today. We obligations, and there is an obligation on both sides of need to focus on the process of political dialogue and the divide if dialogue is to be used to reduce that reconciliation in Afghanistan, as well as on a political tension. settlement in which enough Afghan citizens from all What of India and the other regional powers? They parts of the country have a stake. The central Government were mentioned by a number of hon. Members—the there also need enough power and legitimacy to protect hon. Members for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) and for the country from threats, from within and without. Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and particularly the That first proposition depends on there being a new right hon. and learned Member for Kensington external settlement that commits Afghanistan’s neighbours (Sir Malcolm Rifkind). It is true that all the regional to respecting its sovereign integrity, as well as a process powers could seek to pursue their own separate interests, by which the ex-combatants there can acquire civilian looking on Afghanistan as a zero-sum game. We should status and have an opportunity to gain sustainable make no mistake; it certainly could be like that. Indeed, employment and income. if the situation in Afghanistan unravels, it could end up Afghanistan will then require reconciliation. This being a negative-sum game for those countries. The will include ensuring that tribal, ethnic and other groups creation of a black hole of political intrigue, anarchy are represented and recognised. Parliament and and violence in Afghanistan could impact in very different parliamentarians should also be recognised and encouraged. but very significant ways on all its neighbours. In that context, we were all interested in, if not intrigued China, as we know, has considerable Islamic problems by, the proposal for an exchange of Speakers. We were in its western province, but also has considerable investment wondering whether the Speaker might seek to delegate in Afghan resources. Russia faces the potential of instability that responsibility, a prospect that caused some alarm on its southern flank and also has a significant drugs to your predecessor in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. problem. Iran has a minority group in Afghanistan and I shall turn first to Pakistan, however. I say to the also feels the impact of the drugs trade. Turkey has Chairman and other members of the Select Committee growing regional influence. India has a long and historic, that, if I have a concern about the report it is that the but also a current and dynamic, interest in Afghanistan. content does not fully reflect its title, “The UK’s foreign Part of our strategy for disengagement will thus depend policy approach to Afghanistan and Pakistan”. The very heavily on the extent to which the regional powers section on Pakistan takes up only about six of the can co-exist and work together for a progressive solution 97 pages, and looks largely at the effect on the campaign for Afghanistan. in Afghanistan of action in and by Pakistan. Frankly, the more important strategic issue is the impact of Thomas Docherty: Does my right hon. Friend share Afghanistan on Pakistan. my concern about the role of Tehran in destabilising Pakistan is a country of 160 million people. It is the both Afghanistan and the wider region? Does he share second-largest Muslim country in the world, and it has my assessment that we cannot allow Tehran to continue a significant military and nuclear capability. It is also, as down this destructive path indefinitely? the Foreign Secretary has rightly acknowledged on behalf of Britain, a country that has suffered considerable Mr Spellar: That is certainly to be encouraged, but losses from fundamentalist terrorism, and it continues Tehran will have a degree of involvement. It has a to do so. We need to think seriously about Pakistan’s Persian minority within Afghanistan, it is a significant concerns and prospects, and to take into account a power within the region and it suffers considerably from factor that is sometimes overlooked—namely, its need the impact of the drugs trade on its own population. It to recover from the horrific flooding that it has experienced. will thus have to be engaged in its own interest. That is why the announcement of continuing aid to Pakistan by the Department for International Development Paul Flynn: My right hon. Friend will recall that is encouraging, and welcomed by the Opposition, especially when we went into Afghanistan, one of the reasons for the scaling up of investment in effective, non-fundamentalist doing so that we heard from the Dispatch Box was that education to £446 million a year by 2015. Pakistan Afghanistan provided 90% of the heroin coming into faces, in the words of a DFID publication, “an educational Britain. Will he remind us what percentage of heroin emergency”, with 17 million children not in school, half comes to this country from Afghanistan after the sacrifice the adult population and two thirds of the women of 375 British lives? unable to read or write—and the population is escalating. We have to be clear in this context that there is a Mr Spellar: Still far too much, but I think my hon. considerable onus on the Pakistan authorities to ensure Friend would also recognise the role of the Taliban in that the money reaches its intended recipients. As DFID that trade and the money they obtain from it to fund says, aid is their activities. As I point out again in this context, it is “dependent on securing value for money and results and will be in the interest of the wider world and in the particular linked to the Government of Pakistan’s own progress on reform, at both the federal and provincial levels, including taking tangible interests of the regional powers to act along the lines I steps to build a more dynamic economy, strengthen the tax base mention and the regional powers obviously need to be and tackle corruption.” engaged in the process. That places a clear obligation on Pakistan to improve Let me deal now with the Select Committee report. its administration, especially in tax collection, to foster There has understandably been a debate about the a more open and pluralistic society and, last but by no decision to announce a deadline for British combat 1615 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1616 withdrawal by 2014 and about the manner in which it 6.43 pm was taken. This features quite strongly in the report The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and was obviously the subject of the Prime Minister’s and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): I thank the statement today, which was welcomed by the Leader of House for its attention. I agree with the right hon. the Opposition. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) that it is a pity that the I have to say, however, that the Government’s response debate fell where it did in the timetable, but, although was, frankly, inadequate—almost embarrassing—and if there was huge interest in the Prime Minister’s statement I were a member of the Select Committee, I would have earlier, I do not think that that detracts in any way from been rather insulted by such an inadequate response to the importance of what we have been discussing or the the very significant questions that it posed. The Select manner in which it has been discussed. Committee might well want to pursue these at a future date. It reads very much as a “seat of the pants”, “top of Before I deal with the substance of the debate, I want the head”, “don’t bore me with the details” response. to respond to the speeches made by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), the Let us examine the Government’s response to paragraphs Chairman of the Select Committee, and the right hon. 156 and 157, which makes it clear that the 2014 decision Member for Warley, the Opposition spokesman. My was not made by the Cabinet or even the National hon. Friend led the debate extremely well, referring to Security Council. My right hon. Friend the Member for the Foreign Affairs Committee’s important report and Rotherham quoted from it earlier. The decision guiding us through a number of the issues. I shall deal “was made by the Prime Minister following discussions with a later with some of the points that he raised about number of senior Ministers”. transition, political reconciliation and the drawdown It is not even clear whether those discussions took place issues, but first I want to deal with his point about collectively or individually. Obviously, in this context, intelligence. I know that he raised it with the Prime sofa government is alive and well. Minister earlier today. Nowhere in their response do the Government answer My hon. Friend observed that, understandably, we the Select Committee’s questions about what advice rely on intelligence reports to guide actions and give they had received from the military before the decision, ourselves a sense of whether, for example, al-Qaeda and we consider that a significant omission. Equally might still be in the area. He asked how this intelligence unclear—especially in the context of the many references could be scrutinised, particularly given the intelligence today to our engagement with the United States—is the queries in respect of Iraq, and he wondered whether answer to the question asked in the Select Committee there was further scope for parliamentary activity. I about what consultation the United Kingdom had had have to say that I doubt that. We undertake rigorous with the United States. I do not know whether there has analysis through the Joint Intelligence Committee to been any subsequent communication from the Government assess the terrorist threat to the UK, drawing on analysis to the Committee on the subject, but the reply given on from across the agencies, the MOD and the joint terrorism May 2011 did not match the significant questions that analysis centre. Ministers receive that advice to inform the Committee had posed. That is no way to run a war, their decision making. We have all learned the lessons and it is certainly no way to treat a Select Committee. from the experiences over Iraq, and we continue to Further questions arise from today’s statement by the carry out the most rigorous scrutiny of these issues. The Prime Minister. First, it is clear that a dozen helicopters assessment is that while the threat has diminished, it has were ordered by the previous Secretary of State. The not disappeared. current Secretary of State, when he was the Opposition Although I wish I could, I cannot see how the intelligence spokesman, raised the issue regularly—according to an on which Ministers operate daily could be made available estimate by my hon. Friend the Member for North for the immediate analysis my hon. Friend has in mind. Durham (Mr Jones), about 161 times—before the general I understand his point, however. The onus is on the election. Now he has put the order on hold. Given that Government to handle the intelligence correctly because the Prime Minister has committed British forces to two information is made available subsequently, and the more fighting seasons, will the Government activate process for confirming the information on which Ministers this order immediately? I gave the Minister notice of act at the time is rigorous. At present, however, I cannot that question. I hope that he has a reply, not only for me see any means whereby Members might be more involved. but for the House, and, more important, for the troops. I will address the substance of my hon. Friend’s remarks Secondly, the Prime Minister announced a continuing in the course of my speech. military relationship with Afghanistan, and stressed I will also deal with the points the Opposition spokesman, that it would not involve a combat role for our troops. the right hon. Member for Warley, made about Pakistan We have to ask—and the military too will seek an and regional powers, but first let me deal with the answer to this question—how force protection will be specific issue about the Chinooks, which he was good provided, and by whom it will be provided. We must enough to raise with me in advance, so that I can give also think again about the dangers of mission creep. him clarification and make clear what the Prime Minister Because I want to give the Minister time to respond, I said today. Nothing has changed since the announcement will end my speech now. The role of the Opposition in we made in the strategic defence and security review. We these matters is to support the national interest and, in plan to buy 12 additional Chinook helicopters, as the particular, to take a long-term view of the issues and Prime Minister confirmed today, and a further two to support our armed forces. However, on behalf of the replace those lost on operations in Afghanistan in 2009. country and our troops, we must also hold the Minister The MOD is working towards the main investment and the Government to account for their performance, decision on the helicopters. In the meantime, Boeing is and we look forward to the Minister’s reply to the under contract to continue all critical path work to questions that he has been asked. ensure that the delivery time scale for the aircraft is met. 1617 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1618

[Alistair Burt] and ensure the progress of a viable state; and, of course, security. This Government are totally focused, on behalf So that is a definite commitment, but no order has been of all their citizens and especially those who are sacrificing placed, and we are exactly where we were before the so much in delivering on that aim. Prime Minister spoke today. Having looked at the Committee’s report and having listened to today’s debate, I wish to offer responses on Mr Spellar: Can the Minister therefore give us any progress under the following headings, which I think idea, even within broad parameters, of when it is likely cover most of the things that colleagues have raised: that that order will be confirmed, and helicopters will transition and security, including issues relating to draw- start to arrive for our troops? down; political settlement and reconciliation; development Alistair Burt: In all fairness, I cannot. This is a matter progress towards a viable state; and Pakistan, which is a for the Secretary of State for Defence. The investment fundamental element. decision is in the process of being made. Our troops, of On transition, the shared aim of the United Kingdom, course, have helicopters. The aircraft we are currently the Afghan Government and our international colleagues discussing will be deployed in Afghanistan in the very is to ensure that the Afghan national security forces are long term, if they are deployed at all bearing in mind in the security lead in all provinces by the end of 2014. the time scales of our commitment to Afghanistan. We are making good progress towards that aim. The There is no issue about the availability of helicopters first tranche of areas to begin the transition process was now, however. As the Prime Minister said, the situation announced by President Karzai in March, and is much improved from that in previous years. We implementation is due to begin on 20 July. It is testament believe that the kit that is available to troops is entirely to the excellent work that British forces are doing in appropriate; adding to it through the future Chinooks Helmand that Lashkar Gah will be among that first will be important, but the availability of kit now is tranche. Like all colleagues who have spoken today, I absolutely right. wish to pay tribute to all British military personnel who I do not want to say too much about the question the have served in Afghanistan. Their courage and dedication right hon. Gentleman raised about decision making in has allowed for the progress that has been made so far. respect of 2015. That would open up a debate on The training and development of the Afghan national decision making by Government, in which I do not security forces is at the heart of the transition process. believe his predecessors would come out terribly well. Since December 2009, those forces have grown by more We are therefore content to rely on the perfectly proper than 100,000 personnel and will grow by an additional answer in the response to the report. 70,000 in the next year. Quality is also rising, as is the As always, debates on Afghanistan and Pakistan Afghans’ pride in their armed forces. attract contributions with no little passion, and occasionally a lot of soul searching, from Members with a wealth of Mr Sheerman rose— experience and insight to offer on the UK’s most important foreign policy commitment. I am therefore indebted to Alistair Burt: I wish to make some progress. A lot of all colleagues who have spoken in our brief, but important, colleagues were able to give up two and a half hours to debate. We have looked at origins, intentions and policy. this debate and I would rather concentrate on the issues We have queried success and failure. We have looked they raised, rather than on the hon. Gentleman, who ahead with varying degrees of optimism or pessimism came in very late—I hope he will forgive me. to where we might be going and why, and the contributions Good progress is also being made on the expansion from all have been good, even though I have disagreed and improvement of the Afghan national police, and with some of the judgments made. that is also a key part of ensuring security for the future In responding to my hon. Friend the Member for and transition. The UK has funded the construction of Croydon South and his Committee, I wish to reaffirm 12 new police stations in Helmand province, and since our strategy and relate developments on it to some of its establishment in December 2009 more than the issues highlighted by colleagues in the debate and in 1,000 patrolmen have graduated from the Helmand the report itself. I then wish to pursue one or two police training centre. I have had the good fortune to see specific points that colleagues have made today.I apologise for myself the work being done in Lashkar Gah at the in advance for not being able to cover every question, police centres and to spend time with Bill Caldwell but I will write to colleagues who asked specific questions talking about the training of the national security forces. that I am not able to deal with now. Progress is being made and there is a growing confidence Our strategy for Afghanistan, as repeated clearly by about this process, but, as with all things relating to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister this week in Afghanistan, progress is never linear. This is not something Afghanistan and again this afternoon, is clear and that will go smoothly all in one direction; and there will straightforward: we are in Afghanistan, with others, to be setbacks and we will take steps backwards before we ensure our own national security by helping the Afghans move forward. However, genuine progress is being made, to take control of theirs, so that Afghanistan cannot be and the House is entitled to take note of it and feel used in the future as the base for al-Qaeda terrorist some pride in it because of the work that has gone into attacks, which have taken too many lives in the United creating that situation. Kingdom and around the world. That aim is pursued On security and draw-down, the Government through three inter-linked strands, which incidentally welcome President Obama’s recent announcement on but not coincidentally do make for the better Afghanistan the draw-down of US troops from Afghanistan. We that my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and agree that substantial progress has been made towards Billericay (Mr Baron) understandably seeks. Those strands the international community’s shared objective of preventing are: political progress; development aid to help create international terrorists, including al-Qaeda, from again 1619 Afghanistan and Pakistan6 JULY 2011 Afghanistan and Pakistan 1620 using Afghanistan as an operating base. This is not We support the work that has been carried out this year simply about whether al-Qaeda is operating there now. through various international conferences and by the The issue is: can the area be made sufficiently secure to High Peace Council as well as the direct engagement ensure that al-Qaeda does not come back in future? with the Taliban from the Afghan community on the That progress has been hard won and the announcement basis of the conditions set by President Karzai: renouncing is a sign of success. violence, cutting links with terrorist groups and accepting As was mentioned by a number of Members, the constitution. including in interventions that I appreciated from the In answer to those who queried the issues to do with hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas preconditions, let me say that our understanding is that Docherty) and my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith the Afghan-led process is about those who are prepared and The Border (Rory Stewart), that draw-down has to accept the conditions stated, not about meeting those coincided with the notification of draw-down made by conditions in the first place. As my right hon. Friend the my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. He made a Prime Minister said in his statement this afternoon, we further comment today about reducing our force level are looking towards a situation in which the conditions by a further 500 to 9,000 by the end of 2012. The are met but early negotiations might take place in a decision has been agreed by the National Security Council situation that is not clear. It is important that the on the advice of our military commanders, which reflects conditions laid down by President Karzai are ultimately the progress that has been made in building up the accepted. We welcome the engagement of the United ANSF. For the benefit of my hon. Friend the Member States and the recent comments made by the Secretary for Penrith and The Border, let me simply say that the of State about US involvement. Prime Minister said this afternoon: The third leg is the viable state. We should all pay “This marks the start of a process that will ensure that by the tribute to the work done by DFID in particular, and I end of 2014 there will be nothing like the number of British am pleased to welcome my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary troops who are there now, and they will not be serving in a combat role. This is the commitment I have made, and this is the of State for International Development to this debate. commitment we will stick to.” From 2001 to 2011, DFID has spent £960 million in This afternoon, there has been discussion about what Afghanistan and over the next four years it will spend the draw-down means and about whose incentive is £712 million. We have seen improvements in greater. Our assessment is that the incentive for the education, health and the economy. May I also pay Taliban to get involved in reconciliation is very clear, as tribute to those outside Government, such as Karen the greatest imminent threat is faced by those who stay Woo and Linda Norgrove, who gave their lives for the outside the process and continue to conduct operations development work in which they were engaged, showing against ISAF forces. The incentive is there for the its importance? Afghan security forces to continue the preparation work I do not have time, I am afraid, to deal with Pakistan. they are doing. That is the reason for draw-down dates I accept the comments made by the right hon. Member and our sense is that steady progress is being made that for Warley and perhaps I may write to him about the vindicates the dates that have been given. importance of Pakistan in the future. Engagement with Pakistan is crucial and we have productive intelligence Dr Julian Lewis: I understand the incentive while work. It is essential that those in Pakistan are engaged drones are still killing Taliban in the run-up to the end both with Afghanistan and with dealing with the issues of 2014, but what incentive will the Taliban have to in their own country, which has suffered so much. stick to any deal that is reached or to go through with a deal after 2014? Are we going to be firing drones from In conclusion, Afghanistan debates illustrate the depth outside the country? of engagement of Members of the House in the issue. Our commitment is clear: notwithstanding the complexities Alistair Burt: My hon. Friend is taking far too little for the country, its relationship with others in a region notice of the improvement and strength of the Afghan desperate for stability and the variable factors that will national security forces in their own right. It is they who determine its future, our aim of a secure Afghanistan in will carry on the fight on behalf of their people against the hands of its people, secure from its enemies and those who threaten their state. To assume that this is a from those of the rest of us, can be realised. practice that only we are engaged in and that only we can be engaged in is unfair to the growing success and 7pm strength of the ANSF. That is the incentive for the future. Question put and agreed to. It is vital to recognise that the absence of combat Resolved, troops does not mean a lack of interest from those who That, for the year ending with 31 March 2012, for expenditure have created the conditions for what we hope will be a by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office— secure— (1) further resources, not exceeding £1,279,625,000, be authorised for use for current purposes as set out in HC 921, Thomas Docherty: Will the Minister give way? (2) further resources, not exceeding £19,718,000, be authorised Alistair Burt: No, I have only three minutes left. for use for capital purposes as so set out, and Let me turn to the political settlement. Despite the (3) a further sum, not exceeding £1,188,315,000, be granted to military gains that have been made, it is common cause Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the in the House that we need not just a military answer but Consolidated Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of a political settlement and reconciliation. We strongly resources authorised by Parliament. support the Afghan-led efforts that are being made to The Deputy Speaker then put the Questions on the encourage the process of integration and reconciliation. outstanding Estimates (Standing Order No.55). 1621 6 JULY 2011 Business without Debate 1622

DEPARTMENT FOR COMMUNITIES AND INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT LOCAL GOVERNMENT That the draft Caribbean Development Bank (Further Payments Resolved, to Capital Stock) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 12 May, be approved. That, for the year ending with 31 March 2012, for expenditure That the draft Inter-American Development Bank (Further by the Department for Communities and Local Government— Payments to Capital Stock) Order 2011, which was laid before (1) further resources, not exceeding £15,285,674,000, be this House on 12 May, be approved. authorised for use for current purposes as set out in HC 921, That the draft Inter-American Development Bank (Contribution (2) further resources, not exceeding £2,344,000,000, be to the Fund for Special Operations) Order 2011, which was laid authorised for use for capital purposes as so set out, and before this House on 12 May, be approved. (3) a further sum, not exceeding £17,386,772,000, be granted to IMMIGRATION Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised That the draft Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 by Parliament.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) (Juxtaposed Controls) (Amendment) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 23 May, be approved. HOME OFFICE That the draft Immigration (Provision of Physical Data) (Amendment) Regulations 2011, which were laid before this Resolved, House on 23 May, be approved. That, for the year ending with 31 March 2012, for expenditure by the Home Office— ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION (1) further resources, not exceeding £5,717,338,000, be authorised That the draft Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) for use for current purposes as set out in HC 921, (Amendment) Regulations 2011, which were laid before this House on 13 June, be approved. (2) further resources, not exceeding £277,435,000, be authorised for use for capital purposes as so set out, and TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT (3) a further sum, not exceeding £5,720,232,000, be granted to That the draft National Minimum Wage (Amendment) Regulations Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated 2011, which were laid before this House on 13 June, be approved.— Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised (Miss Chloe Smith.) by Parliament.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) Question agreed to. ESTIMATES, 2011-12 COMMITTEE ON MEMBERS’ ALLOWANCES Resolved, Motion made, That, for the year ending with 31 March 2012— That Standing Order No. 152G (Committee on Members’ (1) further resources, not exceeding £221,086,166,000, be authorised Allowances) shall be amended as follows— for use for current purposes as set out in HC 911, HC 921, (1) in line 2, leave out ‘Allowances’ and insert ‘Expenses’; and HC 934, HC 935, HC 1339 and HC 1340, (2) leave out lines 3 to 17 and insert ‘to consider such matters (2) further resources, not exceeding £21,712,444,000, be relating to Members’ expenses as may be referred to it by the authorised for use for capital purposes as so set out, and House;’.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) (3) a further sum, not exceeding £222,322,315,000, be granted Hon. Members: Object. to Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised by Parliament.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) REVIEW OF PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the foregoing ACT 2009 Resolutions; Motion made, That the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr Chancellor That, further to the instruction to the Committee on Members’ of the Exchequer, Danny Alexander, Mark Hoban, Allowances of 12 May, it be an instruction to the Committee on David Gauke and Justine Greening bring in the Bill. Members’ Expenses to report to the House on the review of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 by 31 December 2011.— (Miss Chloe Smith.) SUPPLY AND APPROPRIATION (MAIN ESTIMATES)BILL Presentation and First Reading Hon. Members: Object. Justine Greening accordingly presented a Bill to authorise the use of resources for the year ending with 31 March PETITION 2012; to authorise both the issue of sums out of the Consolidated Fund and the application of income for King George Hospital, Ilford that year; and to appropriate the supply authorised for that year by this Act and by the Consolidated Fund 7.3 pm Act 2010. Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): I thank my Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time colleagues the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 214). Gapes), the right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge), the hon. Member for Dagenham and Rainham Business without Debate (Jon Cruddas), my hon. Friends the Members for Hornchurch and Upminster (Angela Watkinson) and DELEGATED LEGISLATION for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With the (Mr Duncan Smith), the hon. Member for Leyton and agreement of the House, I shall group motions 6 to 12 Wanstead (John Cryer) and all the volunteers who have together. helped to get the exceptional number of 32,000 signatures Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing to this petition on the accident and emergency and Order No. 118(6)), maternity services at King George hospital. 1623 Business without Debate 6 JULY 2011 1624

The petition reads: Football Clubs in Administration The Petition of the residents of North East London and Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House others. do now adjourn.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) Declares that the Petitioners believe that the proposed closure of accident and emergency and maternity wards at King George 7.5 pm Hospital Redbridge would not be in the best interests of the Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): No people living in these constituencies. town or city wants to see its football team go into The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons administration, and it certainly does not want it to be urges the Government to take all possible steps to stop the docked 10 points, which leaves it with an even bigger proposed closure of the A&E and maternity wards at King mountain to climb, but that is what has happened to George Hospital. Plymouth Argyle. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. The club’s problems do not end there, and I would like to draw on its experience to highlight the problems [P000934] undoubtedly experienced by the 36 English clubs that have gone into administration since Charlton Athletic did so in 1984. I hope that the Minister will share these concerns, and go away, investigate and discuss them with those involved in running football. I do not want to see another club go through what Plymouth Argyle has gone through. I am sure that their best known supporter, Michael Foot, will be turning in his grave; indeed, in some ways I am pleased that he is not here to see what has happened and the misery that has been heaped on loyal staff and supporters, because he followed the club through good times and bad. There were good times, and I must thank Gordon Sparks—Sparksy—for reminding me of some of the highlights of a club which was formed in 1886, joined the Football League in 1920 and got to the FA Cup semi-finals in the 1983-84 season—the same year in which the team were league two champions. I also thank Lee Jameson on behalf of the supporters for the information that he gave me in preparation for this debate. Plymouth has an incredibly loyal “green army” of supporters—and there are at least two of us in the Chamber—but their patience has been sorely tested. Following a winding-up petition in November 2010, the staff faced Christmas without full pay packets. Learning from Exeter City’s experience, the supporters rallied round, and in December set up a trust designed to offer support to the then board and raise funds to support the staff and their families.

Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ Co-op): My hon. Friend mentioned the establishment of a supporters trust, and I declare an interest, as I was involved in the establishment of the Fulham supporters trust some eight years ago. The important role of Supporters Direct in helping to support supporters such as those in Plymouth who are setting up a trust should not be underestimated. Does she agree that it is regrettable that the funding for Supporters Direct is under threat because of the problems that the premier league has with the former chief executive? I hope that the Minister can help to persuade those involved to resolve that problem as soon as possible.

Alison Seabeck: My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, and I hope that the Minister has heard his plea, because supporters trusts and Supporters Direct have been immensely helpful to a number of clubs. In Plymouth the staff have been asked to sign away or defer payment of their salary. In the main, we are talking about some very low-paid people who were presented with a form to sign after the club to which 1625 Football Clubs in Administration6 JULY 2011 Football Clubs in Administration 1626

[Alison Seabeck] I ask the football authorities to look again at the negative impact of the points docking system. Is it they feel great loyalty was threatened with closure. With really achieving their original aim? Is it punishing the little opportunity to obtain expert advice on whether right people? Will the Minister explain why the rules for signing was the right thing to do, they signed, and most football clubs placed in administration are different have struggled since, signing further salary deferrals. from those for other companies? I believe that Lord Some have now had no option but to take redundancy. Sugar has in the past expressed concern about this. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) and I spent quite a lot of time with the Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): I staff looking into their problems; none the less, they are anticipate that the hon. Lady might be about to mention in a difficult position. the football creditors rule. Earlier she spoke about the The irony is that these are the very people who are impact on small businesses. Does she agree that the keeping the ground in condition to start the next football creditors rule has no place in football today, season. The players are protected to some extent by the and that it acts as a disincentive for clubs to deal Professional Footballers Association, and I had a brief responsibly with each other and punishes local businesses, word with Gordon Taylor about the position. He shared while protecting the interests of other football clubs and my concern that there was no protection for all the former players who might be hundreds of miles away? other staff. It was a struggle to see last season out, with relegation almost guaranteed, despite some amazing Alison Seabeck: I thank the hon. Gentleman for and spirited performances by a team that must have making that point. He has made it in far more detail been feeling the pressure. Peter Ridsdale stepped in than I intended to do. I shall reinforce it later, and I when most of the old board resigned and, in all fairness, hope that the Minister will listen. worked to get to the bottom of the finances and pay key bills. At the time, he was welcomed. Help also came, as I Lord Sugar made plain his view that—I paraphrase—the have said, from the Plymouth Argyle Supporters and money thrown at clubs by television companies should Training and Development Trust, which lent the club a be put into a trust, and half of it distributed to the clubs not insubstantial amount. Then came the cloak and to spend, perhaps on players, but also to do other dagger stuff—the secret discussions between the things. Protecting the staff in times of difficulty would administrator and various bidders. Plymouth’s local be a worthwhile cause. paper, The Herald, struggled to get to the bottom of the There are many questions specific to Plymouth which question of who they were. still need to be answered, despite the fact that we We have all had concerns about what checks have understand that the takeover has gone through today been carried out to ensure that they are fit and proper and the papers have been signed. Does the takeover people to run and sustain a football club. Where are the proposal provide sufficient cash for the creditors to be assurances of the ability of these bidders to meet the paid in full, as regulation demands? Will the Football financial demands of running a club? Rumours have League be satisfied enough to hand over the competition circulated about what various bidders might have share, or will deferred debts, including the remaining wanted as part of the deal, and concerns have been unpaid salaries, not be paid or simply stack up, rather expressed that they might asset-strip, including developing like an individual in debt who puts the bills behind the the current practice ground. Although no one has said clock in the hope that they will go away? Is the Football that this is true, it does not help to build confidence in League happy that neither party to the deal is likely to those most closely linked to the club, especially the be subject to any other outside investigations, which supporters. could throw their role at Argyle into confusion? What checks are carried out by the Football League Although the various parties have signed on the on such matters? Very few, I suspect, yet this is a sport dotted line today, it is still not clear whether this is the of national importance. Where is the transparency that end of the story. Will they be able to get on and prepare the administrator promised in a BBC interview? Nine the club for next season—and, we hope, promotion at days later he was quoted as saying that he did not have the end of it? It will not be easy. Media stories are still to know who was financing the bid. Given the amount circulating about concerns among former bidders that of money that circulates at the top of football among do not appear to be going away. We may never know clubs which, in some cases, use the lower division clubs who the mystery shareholders and directors from the as nurseries for up-and-coming stars of the future, I Gibraltar-based company are. The lack of transparency find it astonishing that some contribution could not is hugely concerning. come from them and/or from the Football League clubs With clubs in the lower leagues spending £4 for every to support the administration and ground staff when £3 that they generate in revenue, reduced Football League such circumstances arise, as a sort of insurance policy. distributions in 2012-13 because of lower broadcasting Others are affected too, especially small businesses rights values, and a range of other pressures, clubs linked to football clubs. The Federation of Small Businesses elsewhere in the league could face the type of misery has pointed out that most football clubs operate as that Plymouth is going through, with all sorts of people small or medium-sized enterprise, employing fewer than waiting to pick up the pieces. Some of them care about 250 people and, like other small businesses, often find it football and some do not. Some should be allowed to difficult to access credit from the major banks. As a run a football club and some should not be allowed to result they often turn to smaller creditors, and similarly run a sweet shop. I urge the Minister to take a close look contract through many small companies. The impact of at what is happening in Plymouth and take action to such a business going into administration can, therefore, encourage the sport to take better care of its assets—the have a knock-on effect on several other local businesses. people who work for and support it. 1627 Football Clubs in Administration6 JULY 2011 Football Clubs in Administration 1628

7.15 pm Indeed, I understand that under Football League rules the directors were allowed to assign their interests in Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) central distribution rights, including proceeds from television (Con): I begin by thanking you, Madam Deputy Speaker, coverage, to a third party, Mastpoint. Therefore, when for calling me to speak in this debate, and by the club went into administration and the back-room congratulatingthe hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor staff were not being paid, the Football League froze any View (Alison Seabeck) on securing it. I hope that she money from central distribution rights and would not and I have illustrated that Plymouth MPs can work release it, because they were concerned that it could together across the political divide when Drake’s drum face a claim. starts to beat. It is apt that we should be having this debate today, because Plymouth Argyle, which is based I ask a very simple question: is that fair? Is it morally at Home Park in my constituency, and has been in right that small and medium-sized enterprises and clubs’ administration since March because it could not pay its backroom staff should have to wait to be paid—and, tax bill, has at long last concluded its negotiations and potentially, have to take less than they are owed, despite is in the process of being bought—in the near future, I supplying goods and services in good faith—when some hope. sharp-suited developer is allowed to keep the proceeds of those central distribution rights? I do not think so. In I will not pretend for one moment to be the greatest recent times the bankers have been criticised for being of football fans, but I am a member of the Plymouth paid their bonuses when others have had to go without, Argyle fans trust. I cannot explain the off-side rule with so why are owners of football clubs allowed to play any sense of certainty, but I do know how important it loose and free with moneys that should be used to settle is for a city with a population of 225,000 to have a debts? There is a moral imperative here. football club that plays in the Football League. I understand that the Culture, Media and Sport Plymouthians are very proud of Argyle, but they are Committee has been holding an inquiry into football less enthusiastic about its directors, who have caused so governance, and I shall write to the Committee’s Chairman much angst and about whom they have been forced to tomorrow, because I am very concerned that the central read so regularly in the Plymouth Evening Herald. distribution rights, which include the proceeds from The green army, as Argyle’s supporters are known, television coverage, should be made available to the will be relieved to learn that they might be watching club rather than going to third parties, so that organisations professional football during the coming season. Although and people who are owed money can be paid. That crowd sizes fluctuate, there is a real sense of community needs to be investigated fully. I shall also write to support for the club, the players and the back-room suggest that clubs be required to have some insurance, staff. When it was announced in April that the back-room so that if a club gets into difficulties, back-room staff staff were not being paid, the supporters formed the and creditors are always paid. Green Taverners to raise funds to help those loyal This has been a difficult time for Plymouth Argyle employees. The city council acted with great sensitivity football club, but I hope that the new owners will have and speed and agreed to delay those employees having learned a significant amount from what has happened, to pay their council tax until they had been paid their and will not try property development before running a salaries. I have nothing but praise for Councillor Vivien successful football club. Pengelly, the leader of the council, who acted with such speed. 7.21 pm Plymouth Argyle’s employees should never have been The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, put in that situation. The directors at the time behaved Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose): I echo Members’ irresponsibly. They thought that they could use the club congratulations to the hon. Member for Plymouth, to make money for themselves through a property deal. Moor View (Alison Seabeck) on securing this very Property development is something that I know quite a important debate. She has made very clear her passion large amount about, because before I entered this place for the local football team, as indeed has my hon. I ran a communications company that helped developers Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport regenerate land and managed planning for real weekends. (Oliver Colvile). He also showed that he is heavily Indeed, I retain an interest in the company, so I suppose involved, and whether or not he is an avid football fan I should declare an interest. he is clearly a powerful advocate for the club. Betting on England winning the world cup bid and As both local MPs said, everyone believes that a deal Plymouth being one of the venues for some of the on Plymouth Argyle’s future has been completed today. matches, the Argyle directors came up with a proposal The BBC Sport website states, however, that the agreement to develop the stadium and use green undeveloped park is conditional on the Football League’s ratification. The land owned by the city council—before discussing it hon. Lady said that she has some concerns about all the with officers or local politicians. I fully support the leader criteria that the Football League may consider during of the city council, who made it abundantly quite clear ratification, so the process is not technically or entirely so some time that this would not be possible. I very complete, and it is theoretically possible that the league much hope that the other political party on the city will take a different view, but we will have to wait and council supports Councillor Pengelly’s lead. see. It is very much up to the football authorities to Perhaps someone could explain to me why normally make that decision one way or another. sensible business men leave their business brains at the I must apologise, because Members will have doubtless turnstiles when they get involved in football clubs. noticed that I am not the Minister for Sport and the They seem to think that they can be clever and play Olympics, who is in South Africa doing something, I property deals with clubs. At Plymouth Argyle the am sure, terribly glamorous and wonderful, but he has ground was owned not by the club but by a third party. asked me to stand in for him, and I will endeavour to 1629 Football Clubs in Administration6 JULY 2011 Football Clubs in Administration 1630

[John Penrose] Damian Collins: I was at the Select Committee when Mr Clarke gave evidence. He also stated that he could respond appropriately. I know that he will be following not find a moral case for keeping the football creditors this debate very closely and will take a close interest in rule. Nevertheless, it remains the position of the Football the reports on it. League that it should stay. Does the Minister, like me, Both Plymouth Members mentioned the fact that the find that regrettable? Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee is completing an inquiry into the governance and regulation of John Penrose: If the football authorities find it professional football clubs. Its inquiry, which the unacceptable and regrettable, the Government probably Government have welcomed and given evidence to, is do as well. This is something for football governance to considering a range of issues that affect the way our take on first. The Government will seek not to intervene national game is run, and the focus of the inquiry is on if football puts its own house in order. Mr Clarke has strengthening the financial health of the game. made his position very clear, and that should be a very powerful voice. We all look forward to receiving the Committee’s report—the Government certainly do—and its The football authorities deserve credit for the rules recommendations in due course, after which the Minister they have introduced in recent years in the areas of for Sport and the Olympics will set out the Government’s financial regulation and club ownership. There are now official response. He has mentioned it several times, and an early warning system with HMRC in relation to tax he is very keen to do so just as soon as the report is in. returns, transfer embargoes that help curb club spending, new salary control measures in the lowest two leagues, a May I echo the praise that both local MPs have new means and abilities test that requires proof of showered on the fans, players and staff of Plymouth funds from prospective owners, and a strengthened Argyle for their continuing efforts in keeping the club owners and directors test. It is welcome that in May, all going? It is a perfect example of what the Prime Minister 72 Football League clubs voted in principle to adopt calls the power of the big society, whereby local communities UEFA’s new financial fair play rules from 2013, which come together to tackle common causes and unite will require clubs to spend only what they bring in. The behind a theme. Plymouth Argyle can be added to a Government obviously support those moves. Of course, long list of football clubs—Leeds United, Portsmouth situations such as that in Plymouth demonstrate how and Crystal Palace to name just a few—that in recent much more may need to be done. They also demonstrate years have fallen into serious financial trouble. that prevention is better than cure. It is far better to There is a worrying statistic that since 1992 more avoid going into a company voluntary agreement or than 40 of the Football League’s 72 clubs have been insolvency if possible. insolvent at one stage or another. I should confess at We believe it is for the football authorities to continue this point that, although I of course support my local to challenge themselves to see whether they should club in Weston-super-Mare, historically I have supported tighten their rules further to ensure that clubs do not Ipswich Town as a “tractor boys” fan, and it had a little fall into administration in the first place, in precisely the financial difficulty a few years ago, so I guess that it way I have just mentioned. Equally, the clubs have to counts as one of the clubs in that statistic. take greater responsibility. Supporters should not have It is of course important to differentiate, as the hon. to bail out the club because of bad financial management Member for Plymouth, Moor View did, the elite clubs by owners and directors, as both local MPs said. in the premier league that command the most money The stark reality is that for any company or organisation, and can therefore pay their players the greater salaries not least a football club, emerging successfully from from clubs such as Plymouth in the lower divisions that administration is likely to be painful and difficult. The operate on a far tighter shoestring. The latter rely on focus must be on doing everything possible to avoid local businesses, sponsors, hospitality and so forth for their clubs getting into such problems in the first place. The revenues to a much greater extent than premier league Government’s hope and expectation is that as part of clubs. the wider process of the Select Committee inquiry’s If football today is as popular with supporters, advertisers recommendations, the football authorities will take steps and broadcasters as it seems, there are legitimate questions to deal with such challenges themselves. If they do not, about why so many of our clubs face the prospect of all avenues of course remain open to the Government, having to sell their grounds, and why they cannot afford and we are prepared to look closely at how best to make to pay players and staff or repay debts owed to local those changes. businesses. Those are the questions that the football authorities, which are entrusted to administer the game Alison Seabeck: Can the Minister give a reassurance and our clubs, must continue to address seriously, as that the Government will not just sit on this matter? I both MPs from Plymouth have pointed out. have heard him say that the Government will look at it. This is very important and we do not want another club When the Football League chairman, Greg Clarke, to go down this route. I urge the Minister for Sport and gave evidence to the Select Committee, he admitted as the Olympics to have further meetings with those involved. much in saying that debt is the “single biggest problem for football”. John Penrose: I can reassure the hon. Lady that my He believes that if football clubs ensure that debt is colleague the Minister for Sport and the Olympics is genuinely sustainable, issues such as transparency of particularly exercised about the matter. He is on record ownership, which has been mentioned, supporter buy-in as saying, in the Chamber and elsewhere, that he feels and co-operative ownership will fall more easily into that football governance in general is in need of a place. serious overhaul. I know that he is prepared to be quite 1631 Football Clubs in Administration6 JULY 2011 Football Clubs in Administration 1632 activist if he needs to be. Clearly it would be far better their job on this issue. Everybody will echo their concerns for all concerned if football could get its act together and their hope that the announcement today marks the and put its own house in order first. That would be beginning of a successful new chapter in Plymouth better for fans, and for everybody involved in both Argyle’s history. playing for and running football clubs, than to have a Question put and agreed to. politician intervene. He remains willing to intervene, and will do so if necessary, but it would be a last resort. I repeat my congratulations to both local MPs on the 7.30 pm interest and clear care and passion that they bring to House adjourned.

463WH 6 JULY 2011 Dangerous Dogs 464WH

vicious, and postal workers and midwives go into homes Westminster Hall where such dogs have been trained to be vicious and are attacked. We must do something about that. Wednesday 6 July 2011 Caroline Nokes: I thank my hon. Friend for making that point, which I will certainly address later. The [HUGH BAYLEY in the Chair] crucial point is that in many cases it is the owners who Dangerous Dogs are dangerous, not the dogs. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Any proposed solution must be practical and in the be now adjourned.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) best interests of both dogs and their owners. Not only dog welfare organisations but professional bodies, trade 9.30 am unions and charities covering wide interest areas have all concluded that the current law on irresponsible dog Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) ownership is simply inadequate. New legislation has (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, been passed in both Scotland and Northern Ireland, Mr Bayley. I am immensely grateful to Mr Speaker for and consistency across the whole United Kingdom allowing this debate. We can see from the number of would be helpful. Finally, in an era of austerity, the Members present in the Chamber what an important current legislation places an immense financial burden subject this is and how much concern it has caused. on hard-pressed bodies, such as local authorities and I should declare an interest at the outset as the owner our police, national health and ambulance services not of two adorable cocker spaniels. However, although to mention animal welfare organisations, which all too they are both quite mad, exhibiting all the natural often end up picking up the pieces. exuberance of the breed, neither has an aggressive bone Under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, it is a criminal in its body, and they are dangerous only in their capacity offence for a dog owner or the person in charge of a dog to leap around. to allow it to be dangerously out of control in a public The issue of dangerous dogs affects many rural and place. Such a dog is defined as one that has injured urban constituencies and has been raised with me on someone or that a person has reasonable grounds to numerous occasions since last year’s general election. believe might do so. The most contentious part of the Experiences differ: in one constituency, I have been 1991 Act is section 1, which details the breeds of dog faced with complaints about dogs being used as weapons that it is an offence to own or keep. Four types of dog and with the problem of dogs exhibiting pack behaviour are referred to specifically, including the notorious pit and attacking farm animals and domestic pets. I will bull terrier, Japanese fighting dogs and Brazilian mastiffs. never forget the day when I received in the post a The original intention of the 1991 Act was that due package containing photographs of a Jack Russell terrier to the restraints and conditions placed on owners, such that had been ripped to shreds by a larger dog. dogs would simply die out, having been destroyed or Legislation is outdated and ineffective in addressing a compulsorily neutered, and that they would all have problem that evidence indicates is growing. The Dogs been eradicated by now. However, that clearly has not Act 1871 is still in force, but it was significantly updated been the case. Evidence suggests that their popularity, by the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 and the Dangerous and hence their number, has risen. The number of bull Dogs (Amendment) Act 1997, which made owning terriers taken in by Battersea Dogs Home has increased certain types of dogs a criminal offence. Until then, to dramatically. I mention Staffordshire bull terriers in be responsible for a dangerous dog was only a civil particular for reasons that I hope will become clear. In offence. The 1991 Act was a legislative reaction to a 1996, 380 bull terrier types were received at Battersea. series of high-profile attacks by pit bull terriers. Last year, there were nearly 2,500. Many of those dogs I am not saying that that legislation was wrong, but it were not pit bulls but Staffies. I appreciate fully the clear has caused heartache for the owners of dogs that have difference between a Staffordshire bull terrier and an done nothing wrong other than appearing to be of the American pit bull. The Staffie is well known as a bold wrong breed or type. It has certainly not prevented and fearless dog, but it is also affectionate, particularly further tragedies—indeed, they have increased—and it with children. By contrast, the pit bull is a breed created has caused police forces and local authorities enormous by interbreeding terriers and bulldogs specifically for sums in court cases and kennelling fees. It has been in illegal dog fights. desperate need of updating for a long time. Why do I believe that now is an appropriate time to Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I update the legislation? At long last, there is widespread commend the hon. Lady on securing this debate. Does agreement among different organisations about the way she agree that the trick is to get the balance right so that forward. Some 20 different bodies, including the National the law takes action on irresponsible owners of any Dog Warden Association, the Police Federation, the breed of dog? We need to enact legislation in respect of Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, the Royal Society those owners without penalising responsible dog owners for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the who are prepared to look after their dogs, keep them on Communication Workers Union and Battersea Dogs a leash and ensure that they do not get out of control. and Cats Home have now reached a level of agreement about what might be effective. Caroline Nokes: That is exactly the problem. It is all very well to ban a particular breed, but any dog can be Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I agree dangerous, whatever the breed. We must consider behaviour that it is not the dogs but the owners who are dangerous and responsible ownership. I am the first to concede in many respects, especially people with status dogs who that getting that balance right will be difficult. I am sure train them to be vicious. Such dogs are known to be that that is part of the reason why— 465WH Dangerous Dogs6 JULY 2011 Dangerous Dogs 466WH

Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): I There is, however, a significant problem with aggressive congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. and out-of-control dogs. I emphasise that much of the On that point, before we all rush to enact more legislation problem stems from irresponsible ownership, but we and regulation, in many cases the current legislation is cannot get away from the fact that eight people have not always enforced properly. Before we introduce another been killed in dog attacks in the past four years. According Act, we must ensure that local agencies, the police and to the Communication Workers Union, 6,000 postal so on enforce current legislation. In many cases, they do workers are attacked by dogs every single year. Attacks not. on farm animals cost in the region of £2.8 million a year, and there have been 74 reported attacks on horses Caroline Nokes: That is valid. My hon. Friend makes in the past three years. Other dogs are certainly not a good point. Enforcement is certainly not consistent. immune. According to the Guide Dogs for the Blind However, I am seeking consolidation of the legislation Association, there are three attacks a month on guide to make it easier to enforce consistently across the dogs. country. As I was saying, the problem is that Staffordshire bull Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): I congratulate terriers and pit bulls share many visual characteristics. the hon. Lady on securing this incredibly popular debate. Naturally affectionate Staffies are either mistaken for I have a constituent whose guide dog was attacked by pit bulls by the authorities, resulting in seizure, kennelling another dog and, when the guide dog was retired, my and lengthy legal battles to prove that they are not one constituent was refused a replacement on the grounds of the banned breeds, or—which is much worse, in my that there were too many dangerous dogs in the area. view—are deliberately selected for their status dog Does the hon. Lady agree that we should ask the appearance and then trained to be aggressive, or not Government to look at that specific issue? trained at all. As all of us who are dog owners know, any pet requires a reasonable level of training and Caroline Nokes: The hon. Lady makes a valid point. discipline to become a pleasant, well-behaved member Guide dogs are not simply pets or companions, because of the family. they enable the visually impaired to lead a normal life. I contend that much behaviour is learned rather than It is critical that we look at that problem. It is unacceptable inherent, and that wrong handling or deliberate training that a blind person should be penalised simply because to provoke aggression can turn any dog into a potential there is a type of aggressive and unpleasant dog in the problem. The rise of so-called status dogs, which are surrounding area. Statistics for the number of attacks often linked to antisocial behaviour, cannot necessarily on family pets in public places are not available, because be addressed by breed-specific legislation. The real cause those attacks are too numerous. of the problem is the owner’s actions rather than the I represent a small corner of New Forest national breed of dog. park, which is extremely popular with dog walkers, and I am conscious from both my own experience and the David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate comments of local residents that not all owners who the hon. Lady on obtaining this important debate. I pay utilise the area to walk their pets have their dogs adequately tribute to Banbridge high school in my constituency, under control. I am not suggesting that Wellow common which has taken a great interest in the matter and made is rife with dog attacks—it is not—but incidents involving it into a project. She has mentioned Northern Ireland. out-of-control, aggressive dogs do occur, and for every One blight on Northern Ireland is illegal dog fights for person or other dog involved, it is not only terrifying, gambling and so on. Does she agree that if illegal dog but dangerous. fights are found to be occurring—we need the general There is also a significant cost, both to individuals public to provide information about them—the full and to the public purse, as a consequence of the rising rigour of the law must be brought to bear on the people incidence of dog attacks. Every single strategic health who hold such fights? Those people train dogs to be authority has experienced an increase in accident and vicious, while people who look after their pets properly emergency admissions due to dog bites. It is hard to are penalised. estimate the financial cost accurately, but attempts to do so indicate that, over the past few years, it has been Caroline Nokes: I thank the hon. Gentleman for more than £2.5 million a year. In Hampshire, the local raising the problem of illegal dog fighting. He is correct police have experienced a clear rise in the number of to say there has been a rise in such cases not only in incidents involving dangerous dogs, and there is increasing Northern Ireland, but here in the capital, London, in anecdotal evidence of status dogs being used in the particular. He is right that the full rigour of the law county instead of firearms or knives. Among the criminally must be brought to bear. inclined, there is a growing awareness that the potential One problem is that, while some dogs may have punishments for having a dangerous dog are far lower certain characteristics, it does not mean that they are than for other weapons. fighting or status dogs, either by temperament or by Tackling the issue is expensive for my local police upbringing. There is a fundamental problem with the force. Last year, it spent about £30,000 on kennelling assumption that one breed or type is dangerous and fees, but that is tiny in comparison with the Metropolitan others are not. That misses the point that it is owners, police, which spends £9,000 a day and has budgeted for not dogs, who pose the risk, and that a dog’s behaviour £10 million to be available for the seizure and kennelling will be largely dependent on its upbringing, socialisation of dogs over the next three years. For every dog seized, and home environment. Ultimately, the law should be there is a human cost. As owners struggle to prove that targeted at individuals taking responsibility for their their family pet is innocent of any crime, families are dogs, not at dogs for simply being dogs. deprived of its companionship, and the poor animal 467WH Dangerous Dogs6 JULY 2011 Dangerous Dogs 468WH itself is deprived of its liberty and the chance to have a the breed that matters and that, if the police are aware normal existence. The great irony is that the stress of a particular breed and that there is DNA evidence or placed on a kennelled dog makes that pet more likely to a microchip to prove it, they should step in prior to an develop behavioural issues. incident. Surely the process should be incident-driven, not breed-driven. Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): This is an important debate. Perhaps the Minister will address this Caroline Nokes: With respect to my hon. Friend, that later, but does the hon. Lady have any information is my exact point. Under the current legislation, if a about the tests that are available nowadays which show banned type or breed is drawn to the police’s attention, the DNA of a dog’s parents and their breed types in a the police must act, regardless of its behaviour. There is matter of minutes? We can use technology to accelerate currently no provision for an owner to be able to apply decisions and make sure that dogs that should not be to a court for a seized dog to be returned, and the 1991 kept in kennels are released back to their families. Act predicts a dog’s behaviour based on its physical conformation, which, I would contend, is simply wrong. Caroline Nokes: My hon. Friend is right. DNA testing Indeed, to drift off into the anecdotal, the dog that to determine the type of dog is much easier now than it made me run in the opposite direction fastest during was when the legislation was introduced. It is interesting last year’s general election campaign was a golden retriever. that, in the past week, the Government have acknowledged That breed is never going to appear on a list of dangerous the dreadful stress placed on dogs in quarantine and dogs, but the one that I encountered seemed rather have announced a relaxation of those time limits, yet enamoured by the prospect of chewing my leg off. We some dogs whose breed type is under question end up need to establish in law the principle that it is the deed, kennelled for several years. not the breed, that determines whether a dog is dangerous or not. That view is widely held, even at the very highest Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In our previous levels of Government. jobs, my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) and I were members of the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development in the Northern Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): As my hon. Ireland Assembly and were involved in legislative change Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has in relation to dangerous dogs in Northern Ireland. indicated, I used to chair the Committee for Agriculture Does the hon. Lady agree that it would be helpful for and Rural Development in the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Minister and his Department to make direct contact which is a grand place. Whenever we dealt with the issue with the Northern Ireland Assembly in order to gauge of legislation, the key point was that it was backed up the lessons that we learned about important legislative by adequate resources, so that the police or whoever changes? was responsible for enforcement—it could be another agency, such as a local authority—would be able to Caroline Nokes: I thank the hon. Gentleman. Progress enforce it. The most important issue was that the local towards legislative change has been made not only in authority was adequately resourced by central Government. Northern Ireland, but in Scotland. Such progress has, Whatever legislative change the hon. Lady goes for, I sadly, been lacking here. urge her to insist that the necessary resources be made available to allow it to take proper effect. Any legislation must be evidence based, proportionate and, importantly, best debated and drafted away from the perfectly understandable reaction that is always to Caroline Nokes: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that the fore when there has been a dreadful attack. I do not contribution and hope that the Minister will comment seek to undermine the importance of and need for on it later. legislation to protect the public from dogs that are a I would appreciate the Minister’s comments on the danger, that have been trained and encouraged to be range of possible measures to tackle the problem. The aggressive, and that, in increasing instances, are used as possible solutions include dog control notices, compulsory a weapon. That is why I welcome several of the components microchipping, muzzling in public places and, importantly, of Lord Redesdale’s Dog Control Bill, which was introduced training for owners. Rather than generalising a type or a in the other place and is currently on Third Reading. It breed, those are practical suggestions that directly address aims to consolidate existing legislation, give greater the specific behaviour and the ways to ameliorate it. flexibility and discretion to enforcers and the courts, Failure to comply with a dog control notice could include a genuine preventive effect, improve public safety lead to the responsible person becoming liable to a fine and animal welfare and reduce the costs of enforcement. and potentially being disqualified from owning or keeping At present, enforcers have to wait for an incident to a dog for a prescribed period. This issue has been the occur before they can step in and deal with the animal. subject of numerous written and oral questions, consultation As we have heard, there is a lack of consistent enforcement, and reviews of existing legislation. The issue is not but if police have a dog of a banned type drawn to their confined to cities, but I highlight the work of the deputy attention, they must act, whether that dog has done Mayor of London, the Metropolitan police and many anything aggressive or not. hon. and right hon. Members who represent constituencies in the capital, where there are certainly greater issues Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I have agreed than in other parts of the country. Yet still we have entirely with every word my hon. Friend has said until unsatisfactory legislation that does not address the rise now, but she seems to have slipped back from her of the so-called status dog, which has impacted on the argument of a moment ago that it is the deed, not the police and on their ability to carry out their role. The breed, that matters. She now seems to be saying that it is legislation desperately needs updating. 469WH Dangerous Dogs6 JULY 2011 Dangerous Dogs 470WH

[Caroline Nokes] 9.53 am

I urge the Minister to publish the Government’s Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): It response to the consultation on dangerous dogs, for is a pleasure to contribute to this debate under your which we have been waiting a considerable time. Will he chairmanship, Mr Bayley. I congratulate the hon. Member also indicate whether he supports the measures in Lord for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) Redesdale’s Bill, and whether he will consider introducing on securing this important and timely debate. The vital compulsory microchipping? I am the first to acknowledge context for many of her comments is the consensus, to that that is a measure of traceability rather than prevention, which she referred, around the need to introduce, update but it was simply not an option in 1991 when the and consolidate the laws on dog control. The fact that Dangerous Dogs Act was introduced. Microchipping Scotland and Northern Ireland are legislating makes it was first introduced in the UK in about 2000. The important that we follow the lead of the devolved procedure is now commonplace and can be carried out Assemblies and update the legislation. by not only vets but registered practitioners, which has The hon. Lady set out clearly the case for changing brought down the cost. I appreciate that microchipping the law. Between 2004 and 2008, the Royal Society for will inevitably be most prevalent among the law-abiding the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals has seen a twelvefold majority, but it will indelibly link dog to owner and increase in reports of dog-fighting. As she mentioned, provide an important step forward. more than 6,000 postal workers are injured every year by dogs. The estimated cost to the state of dealing with Obviously there will need to be a register that is issues relating to irresponsible dog ownership is updated at every change of ownership, but dogs do not £76.8 million, which does not include the costs of dog change hands that often. The vast majority of owners welfare enforcement. That figure alone indicates the have dogs for life and, although I understand concerns need to update the legislation, prevent and educate in that a register will be another imposition on responsible order to reduce the incidence of irresponsible dog citizens, it will also be a way to steadily move towards a ownership, thereby reducing the overall cost. situation in which owners are accountable and dogs behaving in an antisocial way are identifiable. If there is Some 2,500 adults and 2,200 children were either no excuse for mistaken identity, enforcement officers treated in A and E or admitted to hospital for dog-related will be able to judge the deed not the breed. incidents in 2006-07, and eight people were killed by dogs in the past four years—six children and two adults. I think we would all agree that that is six children and Mr Gray: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend up two adults too many. In addition, some 197 people were to now. However, does she not remember the days when seriously injured. we had dog licences? They did not work. The bad guys In an age of austerity, we can’t go on like this, to did not have them; only the good guys had them. Surely borrow a phrase from the general election. We need to what she is proposing is a bureaucratic, interventionist, educate, prevent and enforce. Many hon. Members have centralised solution to the issue. If we want to deal with long been persuaded of the need to act. For me, the the problem of people who have criminal intent and starting point was Christmas 2006, when there was a behave badly, licensing dogs will not achieve that. horrendous attack on a postal worker called Paul Coleman in Sheffield. He was dragged to the ground by a dog in a Caroline Nokes: I thank my hon. Friend for that street outside the property at which the dog resided. intervention, but I disagree with him. This is not about Paul Coleman suffered horrendous injuries. He needed licensing; this is about being able to scientifically identify plastic surgery and skin grafts to his leg to try to repair a dog that has perpetrated some sort of unpleasant the damage. I have met him and the scars from that deed. Many other types of animals are microchipped attack are visible to this day. The psychological scars and are identifiable from birth. We could easily have will remain for ever, along with the physical ones. registers that trace any transfer of ownership. As I have said and as the Dogs Trust has taught us, a dog is for Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I accept life, not just for Christmas. They rarely change hands, that it is vital that on the mainland in the United and we simply need to move to a situation whereby we Kingdom there is an essential strengthening of the can identify who is responsible for which dog. legislation, and we must get it right. However, that in As I said at the outset, we are 20 years on from the itself is not the answer. We need to ensure that the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. Police forces, animal welfare legislation is enforced. How does the hon. Lady think organisations, vets and nurses all believe that that legislation that will be done in reality? failed to solve the problem. It is high time that that failure was addressed. Angela Smith: I will come on to that later, because it is a very important point. Several hon. Members rose— After the attack I mentioned, the Communication Workers Union—the postal workers’ union—launched its bite-back campaign, which has been incredibly successful Hugh Bayley (in the Chair): Order. It is clear that in raising the profile of the issue. I think that the there is likely to be more demand than supply when it Minister acknowledges that. I place on the record today comes to speeches. I intend to start the winding-up the importance of the work done by the CWU in speeches at 10.40 am, so we have about 50 minutes for partnership with the RSPCA. They have played a critical debate. I do not have any power to stop Members role in bringing us to where we are today. About three speaking, but I ask people to try to be kind to their years ago, I introduced a ten-minute rule Bill based on colleagues. the bite-back campaign to try to get the law changed. 471WH Dangerous Dogs6 JULY 2011 Dangerous Dogs 472WH

However, before I could get the Bill on the Floor of the that we need to repeal section 1 of the Dangerous Dogs House, there was another serious attack involving a Act 1991. It is deed, not breed, and it is the owner, not postal worker in Cambridge, who nearly lost his arm as the dog, that we need to focus on in legislation. a result of a dog escaping from inside the gates of a We need to enforce, which is a point that was raised property. Two Rottweilers dragged him to the ground earlier. We need the law to apply to private property, so and, as I say, he nearly lost his arm. that enforcement can be initiated. At the moment, it is In that case, there was an attempt at prosecution on impossible to do anything at all. We need a range of the grounds that the dog attacked on public property. penalties for irresponsible dog ownership, including However, the case was thrown out because the attack disqualification if necessary and/or deprivation of happened in an unadopted cul-de-sac. That judgment ownership. We need more severe penalties, especially at effectively means that there is very little protection not the extreme end of irresponsible dog control, involving just on private property, but beyond the boundaries of dogs as weapons. We need more consistent and effective what most of us would understand to be private property. enforcement of dog control measures, including, if That case alone highlights and underlines the need not necessary, more dog wardens and police dog legislation only to consolidate, but to strengthen the law, as the officers. That is the point about the microchip and the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) mentioned reintroduction of a licensing system. That system not a moment ago. only helps with enforcement, but means that we can raise the funds necessary to enforce more consistently Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): I would like to across the country; that is the key point. Local authorities mention a case in my constituency, where a young child will lose 28% of their budgets in the next four years. was attacked by a dog on private property. After the They need the funds to enforce properly, as do the child had been taken to hospital and things had calmed police. down, the parents understandably rang the police and We need education. We need dedicated budgets for said, “Can you do something?”. They were told, “We local authorities and trained officers to be made available, can’t act because it’s on private property and therefore not just to enforce new legislation, but to ensure that it’s a civil matter.” Surely we must do something about owners are educated about responsible dog ownership. I such cases. met a woman a couple of years ago whose dog attacked her own child on her own property. She was in the house doing a bit of hoovering. The dog attacked her Angela Smith: We must absolutely do something about boy in the garden, and she has never reconciled herself that. Every single time a child is seriously attacked or to what happened that day. She is now passionate about killed on private property, usually in the home of a the need to educate owners about responsible dog grandmother or a relative, it makes it incumbent on ownership. legislators to strengthen the law, so that we can reduce and possibly eliminate such attacks. It is absolutely I think it seems obvious to everyone in the Chamber critical that we act. I am fed up of being asked to go on that nobody should ever leave a dog alone with a child, radio or television to comment on yet another attack on but people out there do need to be educated on these a child on private property, or another attack on a points—they need that. Education is critical to the postal worker, a midwife, a health visitor and so on. It success of any legislation. There is public support for goes on and on. updating the legislation: 78% of the public want the law updated and consolidated. I call on the Minister to put Last year, Labour Members persuaded the then Prime on the record today that he will inform the House, Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy before the recess, of his response to the consultation, and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), to initiate the consultation and that he will recommend that we update and consolidate that we are discussing. I place on the record my appreciation the legislation. of the work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Finally, the Prime Minister sent a letter to the Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), Communication Workers Union on 30 April 2010, in who was then Home Secretary, and my hon. Friend the which he stated that his party’s manifesto pledged support Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), for who was at that time a Minister in the Department for “updating the Act in such a way that it provides adequate protection Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. They were both for all and ensures that dog owners are fully responsible for their absolutely instrumental in persuading the then Prime dogs.” Minister of the need for change. The consultation finished He went on: more than a year ago, and since then the case for “We support extending dangerous dogs law to cover all places updating the law has not changed. The health costs of including private property”. dealing with dog-related injuries have not reduced. In I therefore call on the Minister to fulfil the manifesto fact, if anything, the case since June last year has commitment, and the commitment made by the Prime strengthened. Minister last year. What needs to be done? The hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North laid out the case for change 10.3 am very well indeed. We need to prevent. We need dog Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I, too, prevention notices, or dog ASBOs, as they are often congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey called. That may require a range of measures on the and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) on securing part of a dog owner to restrain and control a dog this important debate. properly, including muzzling in public and keeping a I first raised the issue of dangerous dogs in my dog on a lead at all times. There are all sorts of measures maiden speech in the House last year. Having heard a that could be included in a dog penalty notice to encourage number of horror stories from constituents about out- more responsible ownership. I agree with the hon. Lady of-control dogs terrorising parks and open spaces, it 473WH Dangerous Dogs6 JULY 2011 Dangerous Dogs 474WH

[Angie Bray] however, that there are breeds that very much lend themselves to weapon status, and they must be controlled. was quickly obvious that Ealing and Acton, like the rest Kit Malthouse says, rightly, that the whole court process of London, has a serious problem. I put on record my must be speeded up, partly to save the public purse from support for the approach in the coalition agreement— the costs of kennelling, which costs £2.5 million a year cracking down on irresponsible owners who use their in London alone, but also because it is cruel to keep dogs as weapons—and I hope that we still agree that animals cooped up for weeks on end. that is the correct approach. This debate is important, a Speaking as a London MP, I am only too aware that year on, because we really need to see some action. our open spaces are especially precious in built-up There have been some whisperings that an announcement areas. That is why it is so galling when some thug from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural dominates the space with a weapon dog kitted out with Affairs might be imminent. I shall be interested to hear the usual status paraphernalia and spoils everyone’s the Minister’s words this morning. It is true that last pleasure. Not so long ago a puppy was ripped to pieces year’s DEFRA public consultation provided some in Walpole park in my constituency, in front of a interesting responses and talking points, as I am sure distraught mother and her son. I also recognise, however, the recent Home Office consultation on antisocial behaviour that we need to amend the law to cover private land. will. Yet, in essence, that is part of the problem. The The law must be able to intervene when a dog attack issue of dangerous dogs cuts across several Government takes place on private property, just as it can in a case of Departments. We need a co-ordinated approach to finally domestic abuse. Somebody pointed out the other day get something done. that it seems ridiculous that if a postman puts his hand My Adjournment debate on dangerous dogs, this through a letter box and is bitten by a dog, no action time last year, touched on that. In my speech, I focused can be taken. However, if the owner of the house on two measures that I thought might be helpful as a happened to be standing behind the letterbox and for way forward. At the time, the Minister reacted positively. some reason decided to bite the hand of the postman, The first measure would be to attach court orders to the that would automatically be an assault—an offence that sentence of anyone found guilty of a crime involving the police would look into. We need a proper balance. violence or drug dealing. Those court orders would ban We must protect those workers who need access to the person from being in control of a dog in a public private properties and children who are at risk. place for a fixed amount of time. My local police assure The problem will not go away. It is getting worse and me that that would be easily enforceable—they know we need our Ministers, right across Government, to get their local criminals. That would not deal with the together and sort it out before we are all confronted by problem entirely, but would provide a measure of yet another terrible tragedy. reassurance to the public. The second idea is to make local authorities attach conditions on dog ownership to 10.9 am tenancy agreements. I am pleased to hear that a number of local authorities are considering that and beginning Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): It is a to apply it. That would go some way towards dealing pleasure to see you in the Chair this morning, Mr Bayley. with dogs that are a nuisance to neighbours, as would a I congratulate the hon. Member for Romsey and requirement to microchip, which is essential to ensure Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), who saw off a proper responsibility. I am aware, however, that neither lot of competition to secure this debate, on giving us all of the measures are necessarily areas that DEFRA the opportunity to have this discussion with the Minister. could take the lead on. Nevertheless, this is a pressing I asked about dangerous dogs twice last week in the problem, and we need a common approach across House, at Home Office questions and in Department Departments. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs questions. As The issue filters down to a local level, too. Our local the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie dog warden in Ealing has told me on a number of Bray) has just said, because the issue is cross-departmental, occasions how frustrating it is that doing something it is more complicated. However, I was grateful for the about dangerous dogs is talked about endlessly, but positive responses from both Ministers on the Treasury nothing ever actually gets done. Similarly, he cannot Bench. Also, as was referred to earlier, the coalition understand why each borough attempts to tackle their agreement is positive in that its programme for government own problem in their own way, often quite differently. states: He feels that a common approach is surely needed. We “We will promote responsible pet ownership…and will ensure need direction from the top. that enforcement agencies target irresponsible owners of dangerous dogs.” The Deputy Mayor of London, Kit Malthouse, has been leading the way on the issue for the Mayor of On the back of last year’s DEFRA consultation, which London, as my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey received more than 4,000 responses, I and other colleagues and Southampton North mentioned. His focus on getting hope that the Minister will indicate the Government’s tougher sentences for owners of weapon dogs or status conclusions and the way forward. dogs—whatever you want to call them—who use their I have had, as have many colleagues, various meetings dogs for crime, is entirely right and a good example to with a number of organisations, most recently with the follow. I hope that we start to see some action soon. He Dogs Trust, the Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, the also wants tougher enforcement against ownership of Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals banned breeds. I take the point that we are talking and the Association of Chief Police Officers. They all about deeds rather than breeds. I also suggest that it want a Bill. I am grateful to them for their briefings, and tends to be dangerous owners who are more of a the consensus across the piece is that any Bill must problem than dangerous dogs. We have to recognise, consolidate legislation concerning dog control, allow 475WH Dangerous Dogs6 JULY 2011 Dangerous Dogs 476WH greater flexibility and discretion to enforcers and the 10.15 am courts, include a genuine preventive effect, update some Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) offences, improve public safety and animal welfare and (Con): I am grateful to you, Mr Bayley, for allowing me reduce the cost of enforcement, all of which have been to speak now. I join in the congratulations for my hon. referred to by colleagues so far. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North As the hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton (Caroline Nokes). North said, breed-specific legislation is not effective in I will deal with two issues, one of which is to add to tackling the real cause of the problem, but should—there the momentum about consolidation, and the other is to is agreement—relate to the owner’s acts and omissions touch on the law of unintended consequences. I have rather than the type of dog. All the groups mentioned been fascinated and to some extent enlightened by the also believe that, without the political will to repeal rare outbreak of consensus among all parties—we seldom breed-specific legislation, it must be amended to ensure hear so many hon. Members making the same points better canine welfare and a clear strategy must be put in for the right reasons in Westminster Hall or the main place to phase out the breed-specific legislation. The Chamber—but one issue does concern me. There has third main pillar of the consensus is that the scope of been much reference to evidence and statistics that updated legislation must be extended to cover all places, suggest an increase in attacks by dangerous dogs or, including private property, to ensure better public safety indeed, by dogs. Is that a trend with evidence to which and animal welfare. It must also provide suitable defences the Minister can refer us, or is there simply a greater for responsible dog owners—for example, if people are awareness or reporting of such incidents? Is there perhaps attacked and their dog defends them. I want to focus a greater enforcement of which we are not aware, because few remarks on the third point. we might not be privy to the statistics, and can the I was e-mailed by two constituents, Mr and Mrs Sprosson Minister put us right? of Wapping. They were walking their dog last Friday Another important point was the reference to the and were subjected to a vicious attack by a dogo Argentino. Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 as amended. If ever there Both their dog and Mr Sprosson were seriously injured. was an example of a piece of legislation that has clearly It was very much the usual story, with no owner in had no effect, the 1991 Act is surely it. Many of the sight, although one eventually came into the open. My speeches made today were made then as well, back in constituents are very unhappy with the response to 1991, with just as much passion and feeling. Legislation their 999 calls to both the police and the ambulance—I was forthcoming, and those in Parliament at the time am pursuing those concerns with the borough police presumably felt that they had done the right thing by commander and the chief executive of the London voting for the legislation; yet, a few years on, here we ambulance service—but those responses were almost are, having the same debate and referring to statistics symptomatic of the problem caused by inadequate that appear to have got worse rather than better. So I legislation, which does not give the emergency services ask the Minister to exercise some caution in thinking clear indications of how they ought to respond. that the solution to the problem mentioned by so many Mrs Sprosson, in her e-mail, concluded: Members is simply further legislation. Unless we deal “It is only a matter of time before this dog attacks again. with the problem of enforcement, such legislation will Judging by its size, strength and alarming aggression it could serve only to restrict legitimate dog owners, while not easily kill a child and very badly damage an adult. What will it restricting illegitimate ones, which is contrary to what take for the police to address this terrible situation? How many more people will it be allowed to damage before they are forced to we are all attempting to do. take action?” I want to touch on the six pieces of existing legislation, The statistics, quoted by many and in the speeches although I will not go into them all. There are provisions this morning, are quite clear. We have seen a twelvefold in the Dogs Act 1871, as amended in 1989, for some increase in dog fighting between 2004 and 2008, according civil recourse for people such as postmen who might be to figures from the RSPCA; 6,000-plus attacks on postal the victims of vicious dog attacks. I note that no one workers every year, according to the Communication has highlighted the plight of poor old parliamentary Workers Union; 1,000-plus dogs seized by the Metropolitan candidates—apart from my hon. Friend the Member police in 2009 and 2010, according to the Mayor of for Romsey and Southampton North, who touched on London’s office; and, sadly, as has been referred to, the issue—who might also find themselves being attacked eight people killed and 197 seriously injured in the past on private property. four years. All of that is costing the taxpayer money, Angela Smith: To satisfy the hon. Gentleman, I put quite apart from the untold suffering. on the record that I was attacked in the general election I have not mentioned compulsory microchipping for last year, in precisely the circumstances outlined earlier—the all dogs, which many of us support, although perhaps hand through the letter box and the dog on the other not the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray). side—so I sympathise with the plight of parliamentary That would be a modern, 21st-century solution to registering candidates in elections. dogs, tracking owners and ensuring that those responsible Simon Hart: I do not think that there would be much are held to account when things go wrong. public sympathy for our plight, but it might be the only In conclusion, there is cross-party, animal welfare, area in which we could generate some sympathy for police and public support for a Bill dealing with dangerous ourselves. That is why I made the point. I accept that dogs and irresponsible owners. The Minister is sympathetic such an incident is a civil rather than a criminal matter, and DEFRA and the Home Office want to make progress. so that might need some attention as part of any Colleagues in the Chamber are not being over-critical consolidation process that follows. We must also not but genuinely trying to be helpful in giving momentum overlook the Animal Welfare Act 2006 or the Policing to what Ministers and civil servants want to achieve, and Crime Act 2009, which do at least provide an which is updating the legislation. opportunity for injunctions forbidding ownership. 477WH Dangerous Dogs6 JULY 2011 Dangerous Dogs 478WH

[Simon Hart] The residents who came to see me told me of their fears, not only for their pets and their neighbours’ pets, As other Members have mentioned, there is therefore but for children. Horrifyingly, their fears were realised quite a lot of legislation, dealing with quite a lot of on Friday last week when a 10-year-old child was attacked issues, varying from using dogs as a form of weapon to by two dogs in a park near West Pottergate and sustained using dogs in a way that might cause them suffering, let injuries to his arms and legs. Those residents are right to alone the people that they might come into contact call for action and right to call for protection, so that with—indeed, there is a power to prevent some people they can enjoy their neighbourhood without fear of from owning dogs at all. Such provisions already exist, what may happen to them or their own loved pets if suggesting that instead of new legislation necessarily confronted by a dangerous dog. being the solution, the proper and cross-departmental As we have heard, the problem is generally with consolidation of existing legislation might be the way to so-called status dogs, which are kept not as pets but as proceed. symbols of aggression or, even worse, as weapons. We I also want to touch on the law of unintended would not allow young men on the streets waving knives consequences. There are some grey areas in what constitutes around, but dogs in the wrong hands can be just as a dangerous dog or activity that might cause alarm and dangerous. Many dogs have been deliberately trained by distress to members of the public. Plenty of dog owners irresponsible owners to be aggressive and violent, and have fallen foul of concerned if not mischievous people others have been neglected, abused and deprived of the who are worried that the activity of a dog might be love and attention that other pets receive and develop dangerous, although it is not at all. We must protect an aggressive personality as a result. Those owners have those whose livelihoods depend on working dogs. There no respect for their animal, and instead see them as a is a distinct line to be drawn between legitimate scrutiny means of gaining respect for themselves, but fear does by law enforcement agencies and individuals, and people not equate to respect. who may simply be caught up as a consequence of One breed that has been abused as a status dog is the owning a dog responsibly and thoughtfully, but which Staffordshire bull terrier, but I want to say a few words might seem to an outsider to pose a danger. There have of support for the Staffie. It gets some dreadful press, been numerous examples of people who have fallen foul partly due to its historic use as a fighting dog, and of that distinction. because it is also associated with many reported incidents, This debate has shown, if nothing else, that the including some of those that I mentioned in Norwich. Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 did not have the desired My brother is the proud owner of a Staffie called effect, nor did the Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) Act Milo—a lovely dog with an affectionate and playful 1997. Clearly, there is much work to be done on the personality. To assume that all Staffies are aggressive is activities of irresponsible dog owners, for which the dog far from the truth, as I have seen for myself. Indeed, the usually gets the blame. One wonders whether some of UK Kennel Club describes Staffies as the measures for dog control notices that have been “Extremely reliable, highly intelligent and affectionate, especially suggested or are in place would be better applied to the with children.” owner instead of the dog. The point raised by my hon. The temperament of any animal will always be due in Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North large part to the care and attention that it receives at a about attitude and education is crucial. I fiercely defend young age from its owner. When we talk about dangerous the Minister’s position that the Government are not dogs, it would often be more reasonable, as other hon. bossy and that it is not their business to interfere with Members have said, to refer to dangerous owners. people’s daily lives, but there is line to be drawn. Government policy should focus on responsible ownership With a little knowledge, a lot of progress can be made over and above a breed-specific approach. in persuading, educating and informing people about Returning to the situation in West Pottergate, I have the difference between irresponsible dog ownership and been asking Norwich city council to introduce a dog responsible dog ownership, and that could be easily and control order to require owners to keep their dogs on cheaply achieved. Consolidation of existing legislation, leads in public in that part of the city. Compelling coupled with other measures, would be a sensible and people to keep dogs on leads raises questions about proportionate way forward. whether it is fair for responsible owners of harmless dogs to have their liberty constrained, but I do not 10.22 am believe that that argument holds up in areas with an Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): I congratulate established problem. Many responsible pet owners are my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton terrified of what could happen to their animal, and North (Caroline Nokes) on securing this debate. The many would gladly exchange the right to allow their behaviour of aggressive, violent dogs and their irresponsible animal to run free in problem areas for greater peace of owners has been raised with me by constituents time mind. I will continue to make the case for dog control and again. Earlier this year, I was presented with a orders as part of a proportionate response to a real petition of more than 350 signatures from residents problem, and I hope that there will be no more incidents living in the West Pottergate area of the city demanding before the council changes its mind. that local authorities take action. I heard terrible stories The compulsory microchipping of dogs has been from some of those residents about pets that had been mentioned and is endorsed by the RSPCA and others. mauled to death by loose dogs running freely around There is merit in such a policy, and it would certainly be their neighbourhood. Patricia McAndrews saw her dog of huge help in tracing stray and lost animals, but in the killed by a Staffordshire bull terrier in September, and context of today’s debate, it would also help authorities Patricia Harker lost her kitten to another aggressive to identify ownership and accountability of dangerous dog in the same area. dogs immediately. However, if a compulsory scheme is 479WH Dangerous Dogs6 JULY 2011 Dangerous Dogs 480WH introduced, it needs to be done in such a way that it will As my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West make a difference. I suspect that responsible dog owners and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) said, we do not will be queuing up with their pets, and the irresponsible— necessarily need more legislation, but we must ensure those whom we are most concerned about in today’s that existing legislation is interpreted correctly and is debate—will try to find ways of avoiding the system. flexible enough to get to the heart of the problem. We Any system must be watertight. need to bring about a culture of more responsible and A significant issue is who should bear the burden of positive dog ownership. cost. It would almost certainly be the owners of the The rise of the status dog is striking. Between 2004 pets, but if the system were not watertight, it would not and 2008, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty be fair for responsible owners to shell out £35, while to Animals reported a twelvefold increase in reports of those whom we are most concerned about today fail to dog-fighting. Over half those cases involved youths do so. The system must be drawn up in such a way that fighting with their dogs in the street. A clear connection it would minimise the risk of large numbers of dogs exists between the breeding and training of such dogs being made homeless by owners who would sooner and criminal activity, and dogs are often used as a way dump their pet than pay for microchipping. That prospect of threatening and coercing others. As many of my could be minimised by applying the new compulsion at colleagues have mentioned, attacks on humans have times of change of ownership of the animal, or by also increased and convictions have doubled over the exempting groups of owners who find it hardest to pay past decade. the charges. Microchipping may have an important role to play, but these issues need to be clearly addressed in That troubling rise has been confirmed by my experiences any scheme. and those of my constituents in Gosport. A great This debate is important, and my constituents are number of constituents have contacted me, sometimes eagerly awaiting the Minister’s response. I appreciate in great distress, following attacks on much-loved family the Government’s difficulties in reconciling the rights of pets in public places. Dangerous dogs make the streets responsible pet owners with irresponsible ones. The less safe for all by supporting and exacerbating violent issues are quite complex, and proposals cannot be rushed. crime. Current legislation is failing to deal effectively However, many of my constituents are appalled by the with the use of dangerous dogs as weapons, and ownership dreadful treatment that many dogs receive at the hands of the four breeds prohibited under the Dangerous of their owners, and horrified by the all-too-real Dogs Act 1991 has increased. Perversely, the pariah consequences on the safety of the wider community. status of such dogs is an attraction for youths involved They are calling out for the Government to help to in violence. make our neighbourhoods and areas such as West I want to see a more cohesive vision for tackling the Pottergate safe for animal lovers, for children and for all use of dogs as weapons. We must recognise that such who wish to enjoy public spaces without fear of out-of- dogs are part of a wider network of street violence and control dogs. If the Minister can explain how new antisocial behaviour. The most troubling attacks—those measures can make all pets safer from both aggressive linked to gang warfare—must be met with immediate dogs and abusive owners, he will have the support of and severe penalties. Furthermore, courts must be enabled animal lovers throughout the country. We must address to disqualify offenders from dog ownership altogether this issue before more pets and children become victims when the clear intention is for dogs to be used to cause of aggressive dogs and dangerous dog owners. harm. Several hon. Members rose— We must not lose sight, however, of the suffering of the animals. Despite the danger that they pose to the Hugh Bayley (in the Chair): Order. Three hon. Members public, in many cases their experience involves severe are trying to catch my eye, and 12 minutes remain. animal abuse. Through a partnership between the police, councils and animal welfare charities, it is possible to combine effective enforcement with wider educative 10.28 am goals. Dog ownership can have a beneficial and socialising Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): I add my effect on disadvantaged and demonised youths. Pioneering congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for work has been done by organisations such as BARK— Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) on Borough Action for Responsible K9s—which seeks to securing this valuable debate. You will be pleased to teach responsible animal ownership in deprived and hear, Mr Bayley, that my comments will be brief. I shall crime-ridden areas. concentrate on the increasing incidences of status dogs— The beneficial and socialising effects of dog ownership dogs that have been bred and, more importantly, trained on disadvantaged youths presents a powerful case for to be weapons. thinking imaginatively about future legislation. The The Government have made inroads in tackling antisocial straightforward ban on breeds and the reactive enforcement behaviour and violence on our streets. Knife crime has action of the current legislation has proved ineffective been vilified, and serious steps are being taken to stem in the face of an increasing use of dogs as weapons. the gang culture and youth violence that fuelled its rise. Such animals present a serious threat to the public; they In place of the knives and offensive weapons that are a significant prop for street violence, but in themselves people carry in their pockets, more imaginative ways are a tragic example of animal abuse. I welcome this debate, springing up for people to look scary, fierce and suitably and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s thoughts menacing. Status dogs should be seen for what they are: on proactive steps that could be taken to address the a violent weapon, a source of fear and something that issue of dangerous dogs and the wider culture of gang fuels the rise in crime and antisocial behaviour. crime and animal cruelty that perpetuates their use. 481WH Dangerous Dogs6 JULY 2011 Dangerous Dogs 482WH

10.33 am out the importance of early intervention. Whether or not that involves control orders—dog ASBOs, as they Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I, too, will try have been called—we need something to enable properly to be brief. I congratulate the hon. Members for Romsey licensed persons in a local area, including those who and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), for Ealing work in animal shelters, local authority employers and Central and Acton (Angie Bray), and for Penistone and the police, to exercise professional judgment about whether Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) on their accurate and a dog is dangerous. appropriate comments about this serious issue. One animal I saw at Cheltenham animal shelter was I would like to draw the Minister’s attention to the so aggressive that the well-trained staff could approach latest in a long series of cases that have hit the headlines it only with a humane version of a cattle prod. They in my constituency. On 7 May, the headline in the local were not clear who the owner was, and did not know paper stated: “Savage dog went in for the kill”. It whether, if someone claimed to be its owner, they would recounted the story of an Alsatian cross called Cleo have to release that dog out into the community. The that suffered horrific injuries at the teeth, I suppose, of dog that attacked poor Cleo is still at large in Cheltenham. a husky-type dog in Springfield park in Cheltenham. Something is badly wrong if we cannot confiscate a dog Her owner was 71-year-old Mr Robbins, who has already when necessary. Even if no attack has taken place on a had a triple heart bypass. I imagine that he was terrified human being or been documented to the satisfaction of by the whole incident. It probably posed a threat to his current legislation, if a dog is clearly aggressive in the health, and it would certainly have terrified any bystanders, eyes of professionals, they should have the power to especially parents, who may have imagined what could confiscate it. They do not necessarily need to put it have happened had it been their child, rather than down; it could be neutered, trained or re-homed. In another animal, that irritated the dog. Mr Robbins said: extremis, sometimes a dog may need to be put down. “It was a vicious attack and it was horrible to watch…The man Unless such matters are tackled with care and a degree was kicking his dog to get him to stop.” of urgency, I fear that I will read more headlines like the The dog that attacked Cleo was on a lead, but dragged one that I quoted from the Gloucestershire Echo, and I its owner to the ground as it pounced. According to the would not want that. I hope that the Minister understands article, the urgency of the problem. “Police have not established whether the owner of the other dog could be charged with breaching the dangerous dogs act.” 10.38 am That may provoke looks of astonishment from the Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): I Minister and other hon. Members, but we can draw a congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey few conclusions from that story. First, the dog in question and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) on securing was not one of the four banned breeds—I am not sure this debate. I have one minute and 30 seconds for my when a Japanese Tosa was last seen in Gloucestershire, speech, so I will make one basic point. For me, the issue or whether Gloucestershire constabulary would recognise comes down to basic common sense, and in that respect, it if it saw one. Although that part of the legislation dog owners are like parents. I echo the sentiment that should remain—I would not want to be the Minister the issue is not about dangerous dogs, but dangerous who removed it and later saw an attack by a dog of that owners. breed—emphasis needs to shift away from breed and I am a parent of three children, and in the minute towards behaviour. that remains I would like to repeat a brief quote. When Secondly, because the attack was on an animal rather I was a candidate, the wisest thing said to me came from than a human, it carries less weight under the Dangerous an individual in a mosque who recited a saying that I Dogs Act 1991, and that issue needs to be tackled. believe is 3,500 years old. It is an Indian Veda; it may be Thirdly, the owner tried to control his dog by kicking it apocryphal, but its essence is as follows: we spend time which, as we have often noted, suggests that the origin with children from the age of nought to seven; from of the dog’s problem lies with the owner. As the hon. seven to 14 we educate them; and from 14 to 21 we love Member for Ealing Central and Acton rightly pointed them unconditionally. If dogs are brought up in an out, there is no definitive way of identifying a dog’s environment where they have little engagement with owner. I know from Cheltenham animal shelter and their owners and little emotional input, are we surprised other places that at times, people have claimed ownership that society has to pick up the pieces? In essence, it is of a dog until they realised that they were at risk of about responsibility. prosecution, at which point they passed the animal to I will finish by echoing the words of my right hon. someone else. That also has to be tackled. Universal Friend the Prime Minister. If a person chooses to own microchipping is ready to roll. Welfare charities know and look after a dog, they should be legally responsible how to run the system; it takes seconds and costs a few for the actions of that dog. In agreeing to take the dog pounds, and if it makes a surplus to enable the provision into their home, they must ensure that the dog is safe of more resources for dog control, that would be desirable. and behaves appropriately wherever it is. That is the The time for universal microchipping has arrived. essence of the issue. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister will cover all the other points about breed We must not, however, wear rose-tinted spectacles and deed, microchipping and so on, but for me, the when looking at this issue. As well as owner behaviour essence of the issue is the ownership of the dogs. we must tackle dog behaviour. If a dog is showing extremely aggressive behaviour, as in the case I mentioned in my constituency and other such instances, we need 10.40 am powers to deal with that. The Association of Chief Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): It is a Police Officers, the Royal Society for the Prevention of pleasure to speak under your chairmanship again, Cruelty to Animals and other organisations have pointed Mr Bayley. I congratulate the hon. Member for Romsey 483WH Dangerous Dogs6 JULY 2011 Dangerous Dogs 484WH and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) on securing Parliament. Of course, the issue is largely devolved. It is the debate. It has been remarkably well attended and instructive to consider what the Scottish Parliament has shown great insight from hon. Members from Northern decided to do, having explored the issue for the past Ireland, from urban constituencies and from rural 18 months. constituencies. There has also been great consensus The Control of Dogs (Scotland) Act 2010, passed by across the Chamber that this problem must be dealt the Holyrood Parliament last year and enforced from with for the benefit of people throughout the country. February 2011, did not end the prohibition on the four We heard some fine speeches. A particularly fine prohibited breeds. It did not bring in a scheme of speech was made by the hon. Member for Romsey and compulsory microchipping. Those may be issues on Southampton North, who dealt with the issues in a very which there would be a difference with England. However, practical and consensual way. We also heard from the the Act did ensure that the legislation would apply to hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie private property, so that postal workers and other employees, Bray). We heard from the hon. Member for Carmarthen children and other dogs and animals would be protected. West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) on the It also brought in a system of dog control notices— impact of the dangerous dogs legislation in rural sometimes referred to as dog ASBOs—which place real communities. The hon. Member for Norwich South responsibilities on the owner, in terms of their conduct. (Simon Wright) spoke about responsible ownership and Conditions imposed by a notice can relate to such the effects that compulsory microchipping would have. things as training and neutering of animals. There is a The hon. Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) great deal in the Scottish approach that could be taken spoke about the ineffectiveness of a reactive approach up by DEFRA. There may be differences, but certainly to the current dangerous dogs strategy. the direction of travel followed by the Holyrood Parliament The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and, indeed, the Northern Ireland Assembly commends spoke about the need for early intervention and addressing itself to this House and DEFRA. the behaviour of the owner. The hon. Member for The consultation closed last June. Since then, the Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal), in his brief Government have been informing us that we will hear but very cogent remarks, stressed the need for policy soon what the response will be. In a written answer in makers to address the environment in which dogs are December, the Minister said that we would hear early in being brought up and stressed responsible dog ownership. the new year. We are now into July, but hon. Members My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and are none the wiser. I hope that when the Minister winds Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) spoke very cogently about up this debate, he will be able to outline the broad the need to extend the dangerous dogs legislation to principles of the changes that will be taken up by private property. She spoke movingly about the impact DEFRA. We can see from this debate that there is that the failure to do so has had on her constituents. She consensus across the House. The Government would also spoke about the need for education on responsible have support from those on the Opposition Benches for dog ownership. My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar the introduction of a Bill in 2012, after the next Queen’s and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) has great experience Speech, to deal with the fact that the 1991 Act does not in these matters, having been in the Department for apply to private property, to deal with the lack of Environment and Rural Affairs and having been involved enforcement options available and to allow for compulsory in launching the consultation. He spoke with great microchipping to be introduced if DEFRA wanted to power and authority about the need for an urgent do that. Government response and action on the part of the What is remarkable about the issue is the degree of House to deal with the situation now. consensus in civic society. Battersea dogs and cats home, The need for further action is shown by even a the Blue Cross, which I visited late last year, Guide cursory analysis of the number of prosecutions and the Dogs for the Blind, the Kennel Club, Prospect, the number of persons found guilty of offences under the Police Federation, the Royal College of Nursing, Unison, Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 in the past 13 years. In 1998, the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, 764 people were proceeded against under the 1991 Act Unite and, of course, the Communication Workers in England and Wales, yet by 2008, the number had Union all support the campaign for a change in the law risen to 1,247. In 1998, of those 764 people proceeded in England. against, 406 were found guilty of an offence; that number When we examine the data—what is happening on had risen to 889 by 2008. The problem has become so the ground year by year—we see that the case for serious in London that the Metropolitan police set up a change is strong and urgent. As many hon. Members status dogs unit in March 2009. They did so because of pointed out, 6,000 postal workers are injured every year the serious impact on antisocial behaviour in London. in dog attacks. Hospital admission statistics show that Department of Health figures show that 565 dog 2,500 adults and 1,200 children were either treated in attack victims needed to go to hospital in August 2010. accident and emergency departments or admitted to That was up from 538 in June 2010. The problem is one hospital in the 2006-07 financial year alone. As has also that constituents throughout the country are raising been said, most notably by my hon. Friend the Member with Members of Parliament, and the Government for Poplar and Limehouse, in the past four years, eight have to get a grip on it and address it urgently. people have been killed and 197 people have been I am in the very good position—perhaps even the seriously injured in dog-related incidents. This is a hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) will be serious problem, not just for urban Britain but in rural satisfied with this—of being the walking embodiment Britain. of the West Lothian question this morning, because Hon. Members ably set out the case for preventive from 26 February 2011, my constituents have benefited action. In the public’s response to the consultation from improvements to the law made by the Scottish launched by DEFRA, 78% of people believed that 485WH Dangerous Dogs6 JULY 2011 Dangerous Dogs 486WH

[Mr William Bain] difficult to understand the mentality of people who do not have that relationship, who even go out of their way consolidation of the law and taking proactive and preventive to create a totally different relationship and who treat steps were the most important way of improving the law their animals with the cruelty that hon. Members have at the moment. Hon. Members also pointed out the mentioned. In that respect, we are seeing a deterioration, need for discretion in the seizure of dogs. In a written and, tragically, there has been another attack on a child answer, the Minister provided stark statistics on the in the past 24 hours. Fortunately, it was not fatal, but we number of animals seized in the past two years. Perhaps all send our support and sympathy to the family and DEFRA could consider giving the police greater discretion hope that the child recovers quickly. regarding the necessity of seizure in any legislation. We need to respect the principle that we should get The case advanced by the public is clear: 88% of the these things right and avoid jumping in simply because public believe that change is needed. We need to move something must be done. I agree that something must to an approach that is based less on the breed of the be done, but if we are not careful, we tend to take animal and more on the deed of the owner. We need to precipitate action, which is exactly what happened in promote responsible dog ownership. We need to ensure 1991, when, as we all accept, the Government of the that local authorities and police authorities, which are day rushed to introduce the Dangerous Dogs Act, which under great stress because of some of the Government’s was not the salvation that people thought it was. We public spending policies, have dedicated resources in therefore need to get things right and to ensure that any place to deal with enforcement. The Opposition are changes have a real impact on reducing instances of prepared to work co-operatively with the Government, irresponsible dog ownership—the issue of the deed, and if we move forward together, we can secure reforms which so many hon. Members have spoken about. that will be in the interests of animal welfare, employee Let me take a minute or two to go through what we safety and public safety. have been doing in the past 12 months. In that context, the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse gave his 10.50 am successor—namely me—a hospital pass. It must have The Minister of State, Department for Environment, been one of his last decisions before the general election Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I am pleased to launch the consultation—as has been said, the to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley, and to consultation did not finish until well after the election. reply to the debate, which was introduced by my hon. Since then, we have been analysing the 4,250-odd responses. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North Clearly, now is not the time to go through all the results, (Caroline Nokes). I, too, congratulate her on securing but it is interesting that some of the answers are not it; like the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim what one would have expected. The first question was Fitzpatrick), I heard that a number of people wanted to about whether to extend the 1991 Act to private property, secure a debate on this subject, but fortune favoured my an issue that the hon. Member for Penistone and hon. Friend. Clearly, I will not be able to pick up every Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) mentioned. Some 63% of point that has been made in the debate in the time that respondents said no, and 37% said yes, which is a remains, but I will try to explore the main issues, as surprise, but it just shows that there is not great agreement DEFRA is indeed doing. on all the issues, and the same interpretation could apply on other issues. I start by saying that there is absolutely no difference between the Government’s position and that shared by The Home Office consultation was launched by my every Member who has spoken this morning—there is a right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, who made it need for change, and there can be no doubt about that. clear that the Government expect everyone to have a My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and right to feel safe in their home and neighbourhood. She South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) asked whether there also made it clear that antisocial behaviour should be a is real evidence that the situation is worsening, and I priority for local agencies, including the police, councils assure him that there is; indeed, after he spoke, other and landlords. She was referring to antisocial behaviour Members, including the hon. Member for Glasgow across the piece, and much of what we discuss in relation North East (Mr Bain), trotted out some statistics. Action to dogs involves people, too, which is why there is a must, therefore, be taken. As hon. Members have said, crossover. the issue crosses different Departments, which is unfortunate, I will not go through all our proposals in the consultation but they will appreciate that that means that DEFRA document, because I assume that hon. Members have has to work closely with other Departments, particularly read it, but the new flexible tools proposed by the Home the Home Office. Office would replace the 18 formal powers currently in My hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and use, including those applicable to dogs. Under the proposals, Southampton North said that she owns a couple of control measures on dangerous and nuisance dogs would exuberant cocker spaniels, and any of us who owns one be effected largely through the new crime prevention or more dogs should, like me, treat that close relationship injunctions and community protection orders. The Home as a privilege. When a dog actually does something that Office is analysing the results of its consultation and we tell it to do, because it is properly trained, that is a will publish a summary soon. privilege and a reflection of a close personal relationship— In addition, DEFRA is looking at the results of the sometimes, it is probably easier than trying to train our earlier consultation to see how the Home Office’s actions children. [Interruption.] I will not repeat the sedentary and ours would meld together to address the very real comment from my hon. Friend the Member for North problem that we face. I assure hon. Members that my Wiltshire (Mr Gray). However, such a relationship is a noble Friend Lord Henley, who leads on this issue, is privilege, and all of us who consider ourselves to be discussing it with all the civic organisations that the responsible dog owners understand that. It is therefore hon. Member for Glasgow North East mentioned. 487WH Dangerous Dogs 6 JULY 2011 488WH

I want to refer to the quite proper point about Scotland Flood Defences and Northern Ireland. I assure hon. Members that we are very much aware of the decisions that have been taken there, and we are in close contact with those 11 am involved. As the hon. Gentleman said, the provisions have been in place for only a few months, so it is early Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): It is days in terms of judging whether they will work. However, a privilege and pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, I assure hon. Members that we are not averse to introducing Mr Bayley, as my immediate constituency neighbour such measures, if they work. and someone who is familiar with the problems of Several Members discussed dog control notices, which flooding in Yorkshire. many people see as an example of preventive action, in I am delighted to have secured this debate on the that they can be used in circumstance where a dog is implications of the potential delays to planned flood unruly without actually being dangerous. The Home defence systems. In the short time available, I want to Secretary’s review, which I have just mentioned, includes focus on a technical point and relate it to my constituency, the full range of measures currently being used to North Yorkshire and Yorkshire and the Humber, areas prevent people from allowing their dogs to be a nuisance with which I am familiar. I hope to put to my hon. or a threat to others. The measures include everything Friend the Minister a once in a lifetime opportunity. I from keeping dogs on the lead to dog fouling and am sure that there are occasions when he lies awake in tackling those who allow their dogs to threaten and the middle of the night wondering what he can do, in intimidate. We are working closely with those involved. what one hopes will be a long ministerial and parliamentary For those who use dogs as a weapon, there are career, to make a difference. I suggest that he has an already some severe penalties. Although it is an old Act, opportunity here and now to make a difference to a the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 provides that large number of people not only in Pickering, Thirsk a person guilty of such an offence can face a long prison and North Yorkshire, but in the rest of the country. sentence, including up to life in certain circumstances. The Minister is familiar with the background to the There is legislation—it might not be the easiest to use, scheme, and I am delighted that the Secretary of State but I assure my hon. Friends that it exists. had the opportunity to visit Pickering and see the work There is also the issue of section 1 of the 1991 on the “Slowing the Flow” project. The Minister will Act—the breed-specific legislation—which we discussed. know that the original £6 million scheme for flood ACPO tells us that without breed-specific legislation defences at Pickering was rejected by the town and the and, more specifically, the prohibition on pit bull terriers, district civic society, but, eventually, in April 2009—with there would have been many more attacks. The vast confirmation in 2010—funding for the Pickering pilot majority of police officers are of the view that pit bull project was announced. It is a unique, pioneering scheme, terrier-type dogs are not suitable to be kept as pets, with Government bodies working closely with communities, unless they are in strictly controlled conditions. We where there is not an established pot of money. There must also recognise that other breeds—the hon. Members are particular difficulties with the course and nature of for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and for Norwich the river upstream of Pickering, which, as you will be South (Simon Wright) mentioned some—have occasionally aware, Mr Bayley, is where the beautiful North Yorkshire attacked people or other animals. That is why section 3 Moors railway is located. The innovative and pioneering of the 1991 Act applies to all dogs, regardless of breed. scheme involves creating buffer strips along water courses, There is also the issue of extending the criminal law digging ditches and blocking moorland drains, as well to private property. I mentioned the response in the as planting trees. consultation, and I do not want anybody to read anything The scheme was created with the compliance of the into that, other than that it is an example of how public landowner and in partnership with the Environment consultation does not always produce the answer we Agency, the Forestry Commission, Durham university, expect. As the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge as an academic partner, the North York Moors national rightly said, there is currently no criminal liability if the park authority, Natural England and Ryedale district dog itself is not trespassing. Extending the law would council, primarily driven by Pickering town council and allow the police to investigate all dog attacks on private the local floods group. There was extreme shock, surprise property to establish the facts and see whether a prosecution and disappointment when in June, at the eleventh hour—the should be brought. Extending the law in that way technical aspect of the scheme that I want to discuss might, on the face of it, be an easy thing to do, but we was due to start this summer—the scheme was put on must avoid the law of unintended consequences, which hold and effectively cancelled, as the cost was deemed is a frequent problem. Do we really want a home owner to have undergone a staggering increase from an initial to be investigated as a possible offender and to be at risk £1.3 million to a total of £3.2 million. That was alleged of prosecution because their dog acted in a way that to be due to the requirements of the 1996 guidance to most people would consider only natural, in that it the Reservoirs Act 1975, which is the focus of my defended the property on which it was brought up? questions to the Minister and of my call for action. I do not have time to answer the many other points The guidance states that the bunds must be able to that were properly raised. Let me conclude by saying withstand a one in 10,000 year flood event. However, that we are ruling nothing out at this stage. All the one local, who is expert in the matter, has said: measures that have been advocated are under close consideration. I wish that I could give a precise timetable, “While I appreciate that more detailed modelling and info was but I can only repeat that it will be soon. We are constantly coming to light to influence the res engs decision, the fact remains that the critical factors of bund capacity of 85k m3 working closely with the Home Office to get on top of and the number and proximity of properties at Newbridge remained what we all accept is a serious situation. constant throughout.” 489WH Flood Defences6 JULY 2011 Flood Defences 490WH

[Miss Anne McIntosh] the return periods are based on data since the late 1980s? In that case, one in 10,000, or 235 cubic metres You almost could not make this up, but I did not per second, can barely be described as an educated appreciate before preparing for the debate that a community guess. On what basis were the figures reached? Pickering is 10 properties. Were there only nine properties at starts to flood at 12 cubic metres and seriously floods at Newbridge, the scheme would proceed apace. There 15, but in 2007 there was approximately 29 cubic metres. would be no cause for delay or concern about the At 235 cubic metres—the one in 10,000 years risk—the reservoir. Newbridge has been there for far longer than town would be devastated and possibly extinct. The the proposed scheme. Flood and Water Management Act 2010 contains no One option—not my favourite—would involve the specific provisions for bund schemes of this type. compulsory purchase of one of the dwellings or properties I turn next to the personal liability of reservoir engineers at Newbridge. That would be the most regressive and in the event of structural failings. It would be totally least favoured option, but it shows how daft it is that impractical to ask the two reservoir engineers to risk some of the definitions, such as the number of properties their personal liability, as it would result in hugely that form a community, lead to perverse decisions. As over-cautious, over-engineered and therefore over-priced my constituent goes on to say: structures. Liability needs to be shifted from the individual “I just cannot understand an anomaly within effective legislation to a public body such as the Environment Agency—or, that allows this.” in my view, the Environment Agency’s political master, That is a reference to the fact that the interpretation of the Minister. the Reservoirs Act 1975, through the guidance, is either Well over £1 million has been wasted in Pickering, woolly or misleading. Although it appears on the one and it has produced nothing. We do not want more hand that high-risk criteria are precisely laid down, feasibility studies, consultants or modelling unless there appears to be a get-out clause to lower the classification specifically needed for a bund. There is a scheme on the to low risk. My constituent concludes: table, which everyone believed would work, and there is “I shudder to think what these obligatory Res Engineers are a great desire and the practical and political will to being paid”— make it work. that is his personal comment, I hasten to add— I shall take this opportunity to put a number of “but there is something seriously wrong when their interpretation questions to the Minister and to tell him of a number of can vastly alter the design criteria from one month to the next possible solutions that I have identified. The “Slowing when all the physically present criteria remain constant…unless the Flow” project in Pickering has been hampered by the application of common sense is overtly permissible.” the fact that although it is a demonstration project, and although part of it is already under way—I have mentioned Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): Will the hon. the creating of buffer strips, the digging of ditches, the Lady give way? planting of trees and the blocking of moorland drains—I am told that no engineer has yet quantified the volume Miss McIntosh: I wish to make progress. of water that will be retained. That is staggering, given I do not want to use the debate to apportion blame. I the work that the Conservative party did in opposition, want to use it in a constructive way to urge the Minister the fact that the Department recently produced its to remove the barriers to this project and to other natural environment White Paper and the work undertaken projects. There are similar difficulties in Thirsk, and the by a number of water companies. common thread of the flood defence schemes is that part of the project in both Thirsk and Pickering allows Mr Andrew Smith rose— a storage bund to be created. However, that is now being defined as a reservoir under the Reservoirs Act Miss McIntosh: I wish to make progress. 1975. My conclusion is that the projects are being over-engineered with structures that are too complicated, “Slowing the Flow” was always a demonstration and falling foul of the iniquitous 1996 guidance note to project. Implementation requires a major policy change the 1975 Act. Clearly, there is a gap between aspirations by the Environment Agency, from highly expensive for individual projects, such as the Pickering pilot project hard defences to affordable simplicity. We should keep and the Thirsk flood defence scheme, and the ability of things as simple and unstructured as possible, working the Environment Agency and others to deliver on such with nature as closely as we can. However, that appears schemes. to be outside the engineers’ and the agency’s comfort zone. Where is the expertise? Is the answer in the White The Pickering bund scheme has highlighted a lack of Paper? Is it already known by the water companies? If it clarity about high risk and lower risk in the 1975 Act, does not exist, it should be developed. Is the Department and, therefore, a major disconnect between legislation minded to develop it? and guidance. There is little guidance beyond the matter of actual reservoirs. It does not seem sensible to build The key to this debate is whether the Minister has the bunds to withstand a flood of biblical proportions, power to vary the 10,000 and 25,000 cubic metre thresholds. when communities downstream of 8,000, 10,000 or I understand that the reservoir guidance notes drafted 14,000 properties are being held back by a community by the Institution of Civil Engineers and agreed by the of 10 properties. Those communities downstream, in Department and the Environment Agency can be varied. that eventuality, would already be both evacuated and Schedule 4 to the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 in any case devastated. I agree with another of my amends the Reservoirs Act 1975. New section A1(6) of constituents that that massively over-engineered standard the 1975 Act states: is denying Pickering residents protection from repeated “In making regulations under subsection (5) the Minister shall and frequent flooding. Will the Minister confirm that aim to ensure that a structure or area is treated as large under the 491WH Flood Defences6 JULY 2011 Flood Defences 492WH regulations only if 10,000 or more cubic metres of water might be me and to other laymen, that does not sound a massive released as a result of the proximity or communication mentioned issue, but it increased the cost of the project way beyond in that subsection.” what was possible. New section A1(7) of the 1975 Act states: Certain questions float around, such as what is a “The Minister may by order substitute a different volume of bund, and what is a reservoir? A flood defence bund is water for the volume specified in subsection (3) or (6).” an embankment designed to prevent flood-water flowing This is the thrust of my debate. The project could from a watercourse and flooding adjacent land. The probably go ahead if the Minister were to be bold and water is held up and then released through a controlled use that power of variation. He could also instruct the mechanism. We have to be compliant with the Reservoir Environment Agency to replace the dam at Mill lane Act 1975, which my hon. Friend identifies as the villain with an automatic sluice. In the longer-term, he could of the piece. ask Yorkshire Water to consider storing water underground My hon. Friend will be pleased to know that we are through enlarged sewer pipes. He could even instruct reviewing the guidance. I do not know whether she has the Environment Agency to compulsorily purchase one seen a copy of it, but I have. It is thick and highly of the 10 properties at Newbridge. I have been reliably technical. She is right that the independent assessors informed that the chances of finding extra money or from the Institution of Civil Engineers who make these exploring local authority options through the flood judgments are singularly liable. Once the asset is built, it defence committee or through development gain are will be the Government who are liable through the minimal. Environment Agency. At the moment, however, liability This is an individual debate, and I am asking for the for the level of comfort that has to be achieved rests Minister’s urgent reply. I urge him to go back to with individuals, so they want to get it right. There is the drawing board to find a similar scheme that can use undoubtedly an incentive for them to be precautionary, the £1.3 million already on the table and re-examine the but the Government have to ensure that, in our desperate engineers’ judgment that category A status applies to desire to see comfort given to communities such as the reservoir and the two bunds upstream. Most urgently, Pickering, we do not rush measures through that in I ask him to waive the reservoir guidance notes by using years to come, with the climate changing as we know it his ministerial discretion and common sense, for which is, may pose catastrophic risks for many people. he is well known. Mr Andrew Smith: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Given that this was a pilot project of national 11.15 am significance designed to find out what could be achieved The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for through land management to reduce flooding—an issue Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): of concern in many parts of the country, including my I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk constituency—what implications will the shortcomings and Malton (Miss McIntosh) on securing this debate. that the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss On behalf of her constituents, she has raised the subject McIntosh) rightly identified have for the evaluation of through every conceivable parliamentary mechanism, the pilot for other areas? and I entirely understand why. I know that the matter is extremely important to her constituents. My hon. Friend Richard Benyon: That is a key point, and I will come was right to say that my right hon. Friend the Secretary on to talk about how we are reviewing the situation, of State has visited Pickering. She saw the project at principally in Pickering, and the implications that it will first hand, and returned to the Department impressed have for other areas. with innovative ideas that involved a variety of mechanisms, The Environment Agency is responsible for technical particularly those that incorporated the natural environment judgments on flow rates and volumes. The Institution as a flood alleviation and flood resilience asset. I note of Civil Engineers is the expert, and is vital that we have the presence of right hon. and hon. Members from such organisations. The Environment Agency has assessed other areas that face similar problems. The concept of with the panel engineer the volume of water that needs holding back water is vital to a variety of communities to be stored. My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and we want to ensure that our legislation supports and Malton made a point about powers that I may or common sense and is governed by proportionate rules. may not have to do with variation. Under the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, the threshold has Mr Andrew Smith: Will the Minister give way? been reduced from 25,000 to 10,000 cubic metres. That is the area in which Ministers can apply variation, Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend the Member for depending on the circumstances. However, that element Thirsk and Malton asked a number of questions, and I of the Act has yet to be formally adopted. When it is, shall answer some of them before allowing others to that variation will be in the power of Ministers. Under intervene. She has submitted some written questions, the current scheme, the Secretary of State and I do not and she will receive a reply in the next day or so. Today, have the power to vary the rates. she asked a question about the number of people who live below a reservoir risk. I understand that it is not 10 Miss McIntosh: I am delighted to be able to help my properties; the definition of a community in this instance hon. Friend on that point; someone in the Institution of is considered to be not less than about 10 persons who Civil Engineers has put it to me that that might be could be affected by a disastrous breach as a result of suitable for Ministers, but not under the 2010 Act. Its the under-provision of spillway capacity. That is the provisions and the reduction in rates caused shockwaves crux of the issue. The independent assessment said that in golf clubs and farms. Those reductions have huge the reservoir would require greater spillway capacity. To implications for future reservoir building, but that is not 493WH Flood Defences6 JULY 2011 Flood Defences 494WH

[Miss McIntosh] the implementation of the Flood and Water Management Act 2010. If it does, Ministers will have the power to the purpose of the debate today. Under the 1998 guidance apply other criteria to assess whether, on the balance of to the Reservoirs Act 1975, the Minister has the power risk, it is right that these schemes should go ahead even to make an order proposing the scheme in Pickering. with the lower threshold. We have to balance removing the risk of river flooding The reservoir is clearly an important part of the plans with the slight risk caused by the presence of a reservoir for the area, so I genuinely applaud the real openness upstream to the communities at Newbridge. He has the and innovation. There has been engagement with the power; I urge him to use it before the House rises for the local authorities, local landowners and many other recess. partners, and leadership from my hon. Friend. The Environment Agency and local partners are working Richard Benyon: I recognise the point that my hon. hard to reassess the designs and to drive down costs. Friend makes and it is now on the record. My officials Other options that were originally put forward are also and I will look carefully at it. However, that is not the being discussed. Once consideration is complete—I expect information that I had when preparing for this debate, that to be at the end of July—the agency is eager to so I will take that point away and get back to her. continue working with local partners to explore what Let us look at the case that my hon. Friend raises, can be done while maintaining public safety. because it is important to understand the history. I apologise to other hon. Members who might wish to intervene, but I have only a few moments left. My hon. Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I am sure Friend called this debate and I want to be able to answer that the Minister will listen carefully in this case, as he her points. Last September, an independent reservoir did when he enabled me to have a flood scheme in engineer was appointed to assess the proposals in the Teignmouth, for which I am extremely grateful. context of the Reservoirs Act 1975. The Act is designed to ensure that public safety is maintained. The engineer Richard Benyon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for acted in accordance with guidance produced by the coming to this debate; not all hon. Members come to Institution of Civil Engineers. At that stage, the engineer debates to give a thumbs up. The difficulty with flood identified the reservoir as a category A reservoir. That defences is that we only know that they work when classification means that a breach of what could be an issues are not raised because problems have been resolved. 85,000 cubic metre reservoir could seriously endanger a I know that the issue is a burden for the constituents of community—we have already discussed what constitutes my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton, the a community. As a result, it is only right that the highest right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) and the standards of public safety apply. At best, a failure hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery). There are would increase the level of flood-water, thus defeating serious problems affecting communities around the country. the purpose of the scheme. At worst, a catastrophic We are changing the way in which we approach flood failure would result in human tragedy. The engineer funding. agreed necessary design standards that should apply in this case to maintain public safety. Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) rose— In March, new modelling led the engineer to conclude that a higher design standard was necessary. In May, a Richard Benyon: If the hon. Gentleman’s intervention second opinion was sought, again from an independent will take no more than two seconds, I will give way. reservoir engineer. The second opinion confirmed that the Institution of Civil Engineers guidance on the 1975 Act had been correctly applied and that a higher standard Ian Lavery: My point relates to the potential delays. was needed. That led to a redesign that incorporated the We now have funding from Northumberland county higher design standard of the spillway, to which we council, as well as the Environment Agency. Will the referred earlier. Inevitably, that pushed up costs. Despite Minister see whether we can progress the Morpeth the significant local investment already on the table, the flood alleviation scheme as a matter of urgency? shortfall in funding amounted to around £2 million. Frustratingly, at that level of cost, the scheme is not Richard Benyon: I can assure the hon. Gentleman cost-beneficial under the Treasury Green Book rules. It that the scheme is being progressed as a matter of is not my view that the guidance is wrong. That said, the urgency, following meetings on the subject, and thanks case does underline the sense in reviewing the guidance. to the forceful way in which he puts his case—as does That is a firm assurance that I can give to my hon. my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton. Friend today. A review on highly technical guidance—I There are no national secrets here. There is no impediment have already referred to the complexity of the document—is other than the need to find a sensible way forward that not a quick fix, and will require broad engagement. In can be afforded. As my hon. Friend rightly points out, the mean time, I welcome efforts to reassess these proposals. her local authority—and that of the hon. Member for The reservoir is clearly an important part of the plans Wansbeck—has put forward some more money to ensure for the area. That said, I know that many of the that the scheme can operate. I will go through any innovative approaches that my hon. Friend has described proposal that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk are continuing in parallel. It may well be that we can and Malton brings forward. We will consider all the fairly quickly achieve a different scheme that complies points that she has made and ensure that the absolute with the Reservoirs Act 1975 and has a sensible cost powers of the Minister are understood. If we can make frame and a sensible cost-benefit analysis result. All the a difference at this stage, prior to the change in the work going into reviewing the guidance will not affect guidance, we will make it, but my understanding is that 495WH Flood Defences 6 JULY 2011 496WH that will require the implementation of an element of Employment (North-West) the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, which we are keen to see taken forward. 2.30 pm My hon. Friend says she wants a result before Parliament rises for the recess; she wants to be able to give her Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): As constituents the assurances that they need. I can promise always, Mr Bayley, it is a great pleasure to serve under her that I will give every assurance that I am able to your chairmanship; I have done so on a number of give. I will work with officials and local people in her occasions. I give thanks—spiritual or otherwise—for constituency to ensure that we achieve the result that having been given the opportunity to introduce this they all want, which is a lifting of the burden of the debate, which is particularly timely given that we have threat of flooding from their lives. just had a series of apprenticeship results and some major Government announcements on employment. 11.29 am As I hope any MP would do, I want to start by Sitting suspended. singing the praises of my region and saying what it can do about employment. The north-west and its young people benefit from having a diverse, dynamic region with strong areas of sectoral employment. It is strong in manufacturing and in the service and creative industries, many of which are based in my constituency in Blackpool. These issues are not just of historic importance. We have a proud history of achievement and innovation in industrial apprenticeships, but we also have new developments coming on stream. I particularly want to pay tribute to all the work that is being done to bring the BBC to Media City in Salford, Greater Manchester, thus building on the legacy of Granada Television. Of course, all such developments offer opportunities for young people to get not only skills but jobs in the region. The retention of young people in the region will build and strengthen our potential in the years to come. Excellent work is being done to attract young people into fulfilling careers by a number of businesses, both large and small. In particular, I want to bring to the attention of Members today the work that is being done at BAE Systems. In my constituency, hundreds of people are directly employed at BAE and a large number of people are employed indirectly by BAE. Of course, the BAE apprenticeship scheme is frequently hailed as one of the best in the sector, because it gives young people real career opportunities that are comparable to those enjoyed by graduates. In 2009, in my capacity as chair of the all-party group on skills, we conducted a major inquiry into progression through apprenticeships. One of the most vivid pieces of evidence was given by a young apprentice—a young man—who had actually worked for BAE at Warton. He had just completed his course and acquired a very good degree. He spoke before all the current discussion about fees in higher education and made the point that, as a result of being employed by BAE, he had come out of the system with a good degree, which would enhance his career prospects within BAE and without incurring the debt that some of his school contemporaries had incurred. Of course, in the Blackpool area, we also have the nuclear skills complex, or academy. Again, it would be fair to say that, after a number of years of quiescence, the ability of that academy to take on young people has expanded. That is important to people in Blackpool, because a number of our people have been employed at the Springfields nuclear site. I pay tribute to the National Apprenticeship Service in the north-west for working tirelessly to encourage businesses to take on apprentices and to encourage young people in the north-west generally to consider the options offered by apprenticeships. In 2009-10, more 497WH Employment (North-West)6 JULY 2011 Employment (North-West) 498WH

[Mr Gordon Marsden] The most striking and difficult change has been that in the all-age careers service. The Minister will know than 20,000 young people in the north-west started that I have paid tribute to him on previous occasions for apprenticeships, and more than 500 of them were in the work that he has done on that service, so I hope that Blackpool. he will not take amiss what I am about to say; I say it As MPs, we see the importance of apprenticeships not to him but to the Department for Education as a most vividly when we go to particularly successful whole. As a result of removing the potential—not the companies in our constituencies. Last week, I had the actuality, but the potential—for face-to-face advice and privilege of visiting a company called Ameon, which is closing off the vocational route for many people, I a major construction-based business on the edge of my believe that there will be severe difficulties. constituency in Blackpool. I quote from The Blackpool In Blackpool, as in many other places, the Connexions Gazette: team has already been halved as a result of the budget “The firm, which boasts a turnover of more than £20m, has reduction caused by the cuts programmes that I have created six new electrical apprenticeships…awarded to teenagers talked about. I will just give some statistics on the from Blackpool and Manchester”. effects of those cuts: £2 million was taken out of the While I was at Ameon and talking to its very dynamic budget by the outgoing Conservative administration in managing director, Robin Lawson, I was introduced to Blackpool earlier this year, which was a 50% cut; there two young men who had been employed by Ameon and was a 46% cut in full-time youth workers; a 48% cut in who had just completed their part-time degrees at the part-time youth workers; a 59% cut in Connexions university of Central Lancashire. Again, those young posts in schools and colleges; and a 61% cut in posts for men had gone through that system without incurring people working with young people not in education, debt. employment or training. Of course, none of those cuts is exactly good news for young people and their careers. Of course, the north-west also benefits from a vibrant collection of universities, further education colleges, In its 2009 report, the all-party group on skills highlighted schools and sixth forms, including many in my own the importance of quality information, advice and guidance area. I pay tribute to the North West Universities to help young people towards vocational routes. That Association for its sterling work in establishing the link importance was also recognised in the Department for between schools and universities. Children, Schools and Families “Quality, Choice and Aspiration” report, with which my hon. Friend the As many north-west MPs know, there are also many Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) was closely associated excellent schemes that can offer young people opportunities when he was in government. The Department for Education to train and learn on the ground. For example, there are said in the past that it would, in principle, provide opportunities with some of the local volunteering teams. £200 million for careers provision via Connexions funding, I found myself working on such an initiative with the but that funding seems to have vanished from the new Blackpool Circus school—a school that is very appropriate service. for Blackpool. Those teams help many young people In June 2011, the Minister of State, Department for into volunteering and training opportunities. The Get Education, the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Started unit in Blackpool, which was funded by the Littlehampton (Mr Gibb) responded to a written local enterprise grant initiative established by the previous parliamentary question that I had submitted. He stated: Government, has helped many young people in Blackpool into jobs and careers. Many of them work for small “The Department for Education is providing funding through businesses or have become sole traders. the Early Intervention Grant to support access to impartial careers guidance for young people in the academic year 2011-12.”— Like many local newspapers, my own local newspaper— [Official Report, 7 June 2011; Vol. 529, c.56-57.] The Blackpool Gazette—launched a campaign earlier However, the Department’s website says that the early this year to find 100 apprenticeships in 100 days. I was intervention grant is there to fund Sure Start centres, very pleased to attend the launch of that campaign and free child care for disadvantaged two-year-olds, short the newspaper achieved its target. breaks for disabled children and targeted support for Those are all good things, but it would not be reasonable families with multiple problems. One is bound to ask if I did not say that there are big problems in the just what will be left for careers provision after the north-west, particularly for young people in the region money has been divided between all those worthy causes. who are looking for career opportunities. Many local I hasten to suggest that it is not the loaves and fishes authorities in the north-west were hit with a double fund, and I do not think that Ministers have yet whammy in the cuts programme: first, the cuts last year demonstrated the ability to walk on water, so in both in area-based grants and, secondly, the general those respects the Department needs to look carefully comprehensive spending review cuts, which hit the north- and rapidly at the negative implications of the current west particularly hard. Area-based grants were historically situation. used—certainly in my own local authority—to support The axing of the education maintenance allowance youth work schemes and the voluntary sector. As a will also be a serious blow to young people right across result of the cuts to those grants, the position is now the north-west. I met with young people from my nigh-on catastrophic. constituency who came down to Westminster to protest On top of the cuts to area-based grants, there has against the abolition of the EMA, and they echoed the been an 80% cut in the teaching grant in higher education sentiment that I am sure many of my colleagues throughout and a 25% cut in capital funding for further education the north-west have heard: the allowance was vital in over four years. Again, those cuts could put severe that it gave them the opportunity to stay on in education. pressures on schemes and training opportunities for A survey that I conducted in local colleges showed that young people. half the respondents felt that losing their EMA would 499WH Employment (North-West)6 JULY 2011 Employment (North-West) 500WH affect their future plans, and I know from meetings with to whatever career option. University technical colleges people at Blackpool and the Fylde college and with might well have a role to play in that, but it is important students in the sixth-form college that the potential the that we have clarity. EMA offered was really valued. It remains to be seen The Association of Colleges just yesterday produced whether the replacement that the Government have put a booklet entitled “Sticks & Carrots: Will Every 16 and in place will be adequate for purpose. 17-Year-Old Stay in Education or Training?” It rightly The Government decided not to continue the future draws attention to the four things that are key to the jobs fund, despite having indicated before the general policy being best implemented: election that they might do so, and despite enthusiasm “Consistent and sufficient funding…to help Colleges and other for the scheme. I saw in my constituency how well the education institutions support those who stay in full-time education… scheme worked, with innovative placements such as a Good and appropriate careers advice— group of young people being given apprenticeship roles which— at Blackpool football club. I am not passing judgment “requires the support of Ofsted and teachers in order to create too soon I hope, but it remains to be seen how such rigorous standards for Information, Advice and Guidance… The proposals will work out via the Work programme. The right learning opportunities - We should not assume that all Government have not yet, it seems, got a handle on how young people wish to stay in ‘academic’ education”. to tackle the growing problems of youth unemployment, The final key thing mentioned is financial support and particularly in the north-west. transport, which picks up the point I made a few moments ago. I want to turn to apprenticeships, because despite the positive progress being made—again, I pay tribute to It is also important to take note of what the report the work being done by all concerned—there remains in says about the take-up and supply of apprenticeships. It the north-west a lack of apprenticeships for young states that the majority of new places have been for people. The head of the National Apprenticeship Service adults between the ages of 18 and 24, and that fewer himself admitted at a recent conference that there remained than 5% of 16 and 17-year-olds are apprentices. a chronic lack of apprenticeship places for school and We need stronger pathways for work-based learning college leavers. However, it is, of course, a question of for young people in the north-west. Much more can be pull as well as push. There can be apprenticeships—indeed, done, and is being done, to promote such work-based the Government have increased the number of places—but training, and I want to refer briefly to the work of the the question is: how will they be filled? Manufacturing Institute, which is an independent charity founded by north-west manufacturers and universities. A City and Guilds survey at the beginning of this The institute’s “Make It” campaign has been working year showed that 31% of businesses in the north-west with some 20,000 young people across the north-west, felt that in the current economic climate it was too risky and its partners include Jaguar Land Rover, Siemens, to take on apprentices. That was the highest percentage Tetra Pak and James Walker. It aims to give young among the English regions. At a time when the Government people in schools and colleges a taster experience, and have ended the future jobs fund and the previous in the past year, eight enterprise challenge days were Government’s guarantees on opportunities for 16 to sponsored by manufacturing partners and a further 24-year-olds, there is a real danger of young people three days held in partnership with Education Business being nudged away from training and from investment Solutions in Manchester high schools. in their careers. There are good things going on, but the message Meanwhile, the Secretary of State for Education has needs to go out from the Government to young people been distracted—that is the kindest word to use—over in the north-west that vocational education and the micro-management of schools and has allowed a qualifications are truly valued by them. I am afraid that crowded and confused marketplace to surface for young the hoo-ha around the Secretary of State’s English people, with academies, free schools, studio schools, baccalaureate and the critical comments by Government university technical colleges and free colleges all jostling Members about vocational education have not entirely in the mix. Is that not a distraction from what should be helped in that respect. The Government need to listen our clear goal of providing good quality vocational and to get the various agencies to engage with schools education to those who wish to take it up? How does more, to give them practical assistance to promote that haphazard environment fit in with Alison Wolf’s face-to-face encounters and instruction and also some recommendations to the Secretary of State on improving funding, otherwise this will end up like the freedom to vocational employment? The Government need to dine at the Ritz. The Government need to look thoughtfully strengthen and make clearer their plan to promote at what Wolf says about matching work-based learning apprenticeship take-up, with a much stronger emphasis to far more partnerships with the voluntary sector and on work-based learning. schools. On the use of the voluntary sector, I can cite examples We need to ensure that teachers understand more from my own constituency. Volunteer groups are involved clearly what vocational educational routes are out there. with Stanley park. Army cadets play a major part in the Sadly, much of the research and many of the surveys organisation of the armed forces and veterans weeks. that have been done show that there is still a long way to Fantastic work with disadvantaged young people is go in persuading many teachers that a vocational being done by the Prince’s Trust and the Lancashire fire educational route is right for their students. That is and rescue service—again linked with Blackpool football especially true in places such as the north-west. We have club. All those initiatives provide tasters that offer young three types of area challenge. City regions such as people pointers and other outlets for their careers; but Manchester and Liverpool have strong and persistent ultimately, we have to get right the structures for that NEETs levels and skills shortages alongside ambitious process and for that progression to apprenticeships or regeneration plans. In peripheral seaside and coastal 501WH Employment (North-West)6 JULY 2011 Employment (North-West) 502WH

[Mr Gordon Marsden] regeneration is also needed, so that the kids who have learned can take up opportunities. The statistics show towns such as Blackpool, transients—young people that youth unemployment is one of the biggest issues coming into and leaving the town—are key in terms of that the coalition Government have been left to tackle. skills levels. We also have second-level towns and in-between In September 2009, Wirral West had some of the worst areas, which will not necessarily benefit from the critical unemployment rates in the north-west for 16 to 24-year-olds, mass of jobs and opportunities in the travel-to-work ranking seventh— areas. All those areas must have progression and links. Tony Blair talked about “education, education, Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): The hon. Lady education”, but I believe that our watchwords—the mentions regeneration in Merseyside; a lot of people Minister has already heard this, so he will have to were employed in the housing market renewal programme forgive me—should be “progression, progression, in Merseyside. Does she regret the loss of that programme? progression”. Our young people in the north-west must be equipped for a working life in which they will change Esther McVey: It is slightly off the subject to talk jobs or careers probably four or five times. The situation about a specific housing renewal project, but I will say was not like that for my father, who signed up as an that infrastructure is key, and we have put £450 million engineering apprentice just before the second world war into the Mersey gateway. We have set up enterprise at the age of 14 with the famous engineering company zones in the area, and we are putting money into the Crossley and was told by my grandfather that he would Royal Liverpool hospital, which will develop the Merseybio have a job for life. Young people will have to be adept at campus to extend the knowledge economy. We are also picking up bespoke skills on the job and acquiring the considering ways to develop Wirral Waters and Liverpool enabling and personal skills that will ease subsequent Waters. There are various ways to create regeneration transfers and take them toward opportunities that include and improve an area. self-employment as well as working for traditional large employers. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Will the hon. To address all that, we need not just proper resources Lady give way? but a proper strategy for progression. So far, the Government have done too little to make those links Esther McVey: She will indeed. and enable our young people and their talents to stay in or come back to the north-west. Joined-up pathways to Bill Esterson: The hon. Lady has never been so popular. career opportunities will be key to a combination that will enable the north-west’s young people and economy Esther McVey: Ihave. to enjoy the fulfilment, dynamism and achievement to which its history points it. Bill Esterson: I jest. I wanted to ask, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) 2.52 pm did, about the future jobs fund. It reduced youth unemployment, which was falling as Labour left power. Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): I am delighted The hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) that this debate has been secured, because youth discussed the scale of the problem, but does she recognise unemployment and the lack of youth opportunities are that the future jobs fund was a success, and does she one of the main reasons why I came into politics. Given regret the fact that one of this Government’s early that I grew up in Liverpool in the 1970s and 1980s, it is decisions was to scrap it? understandable that I wanted to change that. It feels a bit like déjà vu at the moment; it reminds me of what Esther McVey: The future jobs fund had some successes, happened in the ’70s and ’80s. Sometimes there are but 50% of people never ended up in a job. It focused on defining moments in a life. One such moment for me providing temporary and short-term jobs, which led to was 3 July 1981, when I was in Princes park at the top of false expectations and a lot of upset when jobs did not Devonshire road as the Toxteth riots began. It was 30 come to pass. It was also one of the most expensive years ago this week when the blue sky changed to schemes ever. I do not think that it was a success. It orange and smoke billowed up into the air. might have been for a small set of people, but it was The riots might have happened in July 1981, but the expensive. Given the timing of its introduction, some situation had been festering for some time, perhaps might consider it a pre-election stunt. We have to consider throughout the ’70s. There was much social unrest, as schemes that are sustainable. The Work programme, well as complex economic issues and problems with city which we are working on now, can get more people into leaders. People did not feel that they were being heard employment. or given opportunities, although there was a lot of The statistics in our area show that unemployment talent in the area. That was a formative experience in for 16 to 24-year-olds across the country stands at more my youth, and I desperately wanted to address the issue. than 1 million. The figure for the north-west is 160,000, At the time, the Scarman report recognised that the making it the region with the highest unemployment. riots represented the result of social problems such as Unemployment for 16 to 24-year-olds has decreased by poverty and deprivation, and the Government responded 35,000 since the last election. It is a tiny dent, but by sending Michael Heseltine to Liverpool to be Minister necessary. for Merseyside. He set up the Merseyside taskforce and The hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) launched a set of initiatives to begin the regeneration of asked about development in Merseyside. I mentioned Liverpool. That is what I am thinking about. We are some of the schemes and the things that we must talking about education and opportunities, but city develop. Merseyside, in its heyday as a maritime port, 503WH Employment (North-West)6 JULY 2011 Employment (North-West) 504WH had a population of 1 million, which dropped to 400,000. As I have said, the issue is about education and the We must develop our natural unique selling points. On opportunities that we as a Government can provide in Merseyside, one of those must be the port. That is why I the field of learning, and through apprenticeships and am delighted that the Minister with responsibility for the Work programme. Equally, however, it is about ports, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead regenerating areas so that they have jobs. I have said all (Mike Penning), has been negotiating with city council that I wanted to say. We need to do something. The leader Joe Anderson. We need a stop-and-start cruise scars that have been left on Merseyside for a long time terminal there. We must also work with private need to be healed, and one key thing would be the enterprise—we are working with Peel Holdings, Cammell development of the port to provide Merseyside with Laird and the Stobart Group—to open up the port, maritime jobs for a long time to come. with a vision of Merseyside as the port of the north. If we want to achieve our goals on carbon emissions or 3.2 pm other issues, surely developing the port is a way forward and an opportunity for the people there. Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Wirral As well as increasing employment within the area, we West (Esther McVey). As she has reminded us, it is the need training schemes for the youth of the day. That is 30th anniversary of the events in Toxteth. In many why I am delighted that we are investing in and supporting ways, Liverpool and the rest of Merseyside, in common apprenticeships and increasing the number of places, with the rest of the north-west, have come a very long although I agree with the hon. Member for Blackpool way in those three decades. However, communities in South (Mr Marsden) that the issue is not just about Liverpool, including in my constituency, are concerned apprenticeships; it must be about attracting buy-in from and fearful that the large-scale cuts in public spending businesses, which must understand that they will benefit. will result in a return to those days. I should also like to We are considering work experience schemes, voluntary put on record my appreciation of the hon. Lady’s work work and the Work programme. All those things are in promoting career opportunities. She came to St John key. Bosco school in my constituency and spoke to the girls There are things that we can do ourselves. I am doing there about career opportunities, which was a positive something this Friday in Wirral West. I visit schools experience for the young people concerned. every week; I have seen 5,000 schoolchildren since this I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool time last year. One of them said to me, “Esther, it is a South (Mr Marsden) on securing this important debate, hugely changing landscape. Things are getting more which addresses vital issues for constituencies throughout complicated. What will happen at universities? Who the region and, indeed, other parts of the country. He will fund us? Who will sponsor us?” I am putting on a set out some of the key economic strengths of the youth summit in Wirral this Friday. I will bring together north-west region. He spoke about the BBC’s move to a collection of universities and everybody who could Salford and about the impact of the work of both the sponsor the event, such as the Manufacturing Institute, National Apprenticeship Service in the north-west and which has been mentioned by the hon. Member for the North West Universities Association. He rightly Blackpool South, the Institute of Physics, the police reminded us of the disproportionate and unfair impact and the Army. I will also bring businesses together to that the Government’s decisions on cuts last year have see how they can fund young people, and to discuss the had on constituencies such as his and mine. The paths they could take to become perhaps a legal executive, combination of the reduction in the area-based grant solicitor or accountant. I will also bring together and the disproportionate impact of the wider cuts has apprenticeship schemes from the BBC, the Chemical been felt in the voluntary and communities sector and Industries Association, INEOS, Merseytravel and Andrew in education, including, as my hon. Friend rightly said, Collinge. The National YouthTheatre will also be there, further education. as will a head of recruitment, who will speak to young kids who are at school about what employers need. My hon. Friend spoke about the impact of the cuts to the education maintenance allowance. Like other Members, Having spent the past 10 years looking into and I have in recent months visited sixth forms and colleges, researching the traits and characteristics of people who including Liverpool community college, in my constituency, succeed in business, I know that what we are talking and young people are concerned that, without EMA, about is not just grades, but character traits and personality they might not be able to stay in education. I still types. It is key that pupils at school understand that, so encourage them—I am sure that all Members do this—to recruitment people will be present to talk about that. In consider education, because of the broader benefits an ever more complicated age in which CVs might all that it brings, but there is concern. My hon. Friend is seem the same, those character traits are key. right to say that the Opposition will closely monitor We are members of different parties, but we all want how the Government’s new and much cheaper scheme more people, particularly the youth, in jobs. If people to replace EMA operates in practice. think that there are no opportunities for them and that My hon. Friend also spoke about the English they have no future, that will have deep, long-term baccalaureate and its implications for vocational education. effects on what they will achieve and what they will It is a big challenge. Concerns have already been aired want to do. I was slightly different from my friends. In about the E-bac—the subjects that are and are not 1984, when we were wondering what we were going to included, the way in which it was introduced, and the do and most jobs were not available, I thought, “Well, if retrospective application of a standard that schools did most jobs aren’t available, I can do whatever I want to not know about at the time. Those, however, are matters do, so why not have a go, and go into TV?” Some of my for another day. In today’s debate, I am keen for the friends did not have that outlook and were somewhat Government to give an indication that they will develop disappointed for many years to come. a vocational version of the E-bac. It would tell those 505WH Employment (North-West)6 JULY 2011 Employment (North-West) 506WH

[Stephen Twigg] is a model of the way in which the education system can meet some of the new challenges we face, particularly in young people who will not follow a primarily academic vocational education, which my hon. Friend the Member path that there is something of equally high status and for Blackpool South has set out so eloquently. rigour with a strong vocational component that will Finally, there is the broader question of careers advice. recognise their achievement. Frankly, we have never got it right in this country, and My hon. Friend also spoke about apprenticeships. I we can all tell stories about the advice we got when we want to put on record my appreciation of those in were at school or college as teenagers. When the Labour Liverpool who provide apprenticeships. When Labour party was in government, we tried to deal with the issue, regained control of Liverpool city council just over a and I was briefly the Minister with responsibility for the year ago, a commitment was made, despite the difficult Connexions service when it was first set up. We know funding environment, to create new apprenticeships. I from all the evidence that, for all the different initiatives am delighted that Joe Anderson’s administration has we have had, we have never quite got things right. We created 133 apprenticeships. It is striking that, when have to look at new and innovative solutions. Liverpool city council advertised those new apprenticeships, Cardinal Heenan school in my constituency runs there were 1,183 applications. That demonstrates my industry days. It invites local people who work in a hon. Friend’s point about the demand for the kind of variety of fields to come and meet its young people face support that apprenticeships provide. to face to talk about the work they do. The school does I want to refer to three different examples—two from that with the year 9s before they choose their GCSE Liverpool and one from London. If we are to enhance options, and it does it again with the year 11s, who are career opportunities for young people, that will not at a crucial stage in their education. That is the sort simply be delivered by the state, be that the Department of programme that we need to encourage and have for Education nationally or local authorities. The social more of. and private sectors will also have an important role to play. In Croxteth in my constituency, the neighbourhood Bill Esterson: My hon. Friend is giving some good services company, Alt Valley Community Trust, is a examples of the importance of a good careers service model of a social enterprise that works with both the and good practice. Does he agree that the change to private and public sectors to deliver for local people. Its providing careers advice remotely is worrying? The loss work has been widely praised and recognised. It runs a of face-to-face careers guidance, particularly where personal hugely successful future jobs fund initiative. I certainly relationships already exist, is very worrying, and there is do not concur with the hon. Member for Wirral West, concern about the ability to maintain the benefits of who described that fund as a pre-election stunt. I invite such face-to-face guidance. her to come to Croxteth to see the brilliant work that the communiversity is doing with funding from the Stephen Twigg:. I share my hon. Friend’s concern. I future jobs fund. Some 800 beneficiaries have been echo what he has said and what my hon. Friend the provided with six-month contracts over almost the past Member for Blackpool South said in his opening remarks: two years. There have been more than 500 work placements a face-to-face element and direct interaction are crucial. as a result of that one social enterprise, which is a In a sense, my argument is that we need more rather communiversity or neighbourhood services company than less of that. Some of that advice will come through based in Croxteth, one of the most deprived parts of my traditional careers advice in school, but some needs to constituency. be different and innovative, and I will give an example From September, when the future jobs fund will shortly. come to an end, the neighbourhood services company in Croxteth will work with others, including local housing Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): We all associations and the city council, to provide a further agree about the importance of good-quality careers 60 apprenticeships. Yes, future careers for young people advice. Is my hon. Friend as concerned as me about the are about what happens in our schools and the policies resources for that advice in schools? As more schools of central Government and local authorities, but they set up independently as academies, the resources available are also, importantly, about engaging with social enterprises to local authorities to support the schools that remain such as the communiversity in Croxteth. in their ambit will be reduced, so careers advice may suffer. Liverpool city council, in partnership with Liverpool community college and Liverpool John Moores university, is working on a proposed university technical college in Stephen Twigg: Absolutely. It is vital that carers Liverpool. It is an exciting opportunity for Liverpool advice is seen as a priority by schools—whatever their to create a new college for 14 to 19-year-olds. Some status, they have to own this issue—and by central and 600 students will probably attend the university technical local government. college, if it gets the go-ahead, which I very much hope I want to give an example of a social enterprise. it does. Its curriculum for 14 to 16-year-olds will be Future First, which was set up by an inspirational based on traditional GCSEs and A-levels, but with a young man called Jake Hayman, looks to change the much more significant technical element for about 40% way in which careers advice is provided. Its key aim is of the curriculum. It will look at either the traditional to bring former students back to their old schools to or the new strengths in the Merseyside economy. I echo inspire, advise and guide the current pupils. It aims to what the hon. Member for Wirral West has said about build an alumni network in each school in the state the importance of the port. The university technical sector and to work with schools to celebrate the diverse college will focus on the port and economic activity range of talents that have come from them. Future First around it, as well as on environmental technology. That uses these networks to engage with the current pupils 507WH Employment (North-West)6 JULY 2011 Employment (North-West) 508WH over four years—this is not a one-off event. It leverages economy in western Europe or the US has a similar that network with a community of businesses. It is discrepancy. That is extremely serious for our constituents, currently working in London with businesses such as because there is an assumption that anything world-class Google and PricewaterhouseCoopers to provide work that happens in this country goes back down to London, experience, internships and industry days. and we need to do what we can as MPs to fight that. I I know one of the schools Future First works with in will talk a little about some of the world-class enterprises north London. William Ellis school in Camden has that we have in the north-west, which we need to built a network of 40 former students, including football encourage. coaches, doctors, sound technicians, entrepreneurs and I also want to talk about the public spending that architects, providing a careers curriculum for more than Scotland gets vis-à-vis the English regions. Today’s debate 900 students. Through its alumni network, it has created is not the place to discuss the Barnett formula, but it is a a range of work experience placements, which includes fact that if my constituency was north of the border, more than 20 work-shadowing opportunities with leading and it had the same demographics and a similar needs barristers. That is absolutely the right way to go, because profile, it would get about £1,600 a head more in public it is about promoting social mobility, narrowing gaps in spending. opportunity between the poorest and the richest and A small thing that happened a fortnight ago should giving young people in state schools opportunities that give us all food for thought in the north-west. We have a lot of young people in private schools take for granted. talked about the Mersey Gateway project, but another Future First has commissioned research into the major bridge programme will take place just north of issues it works on. Some 27% of children in state Edinburgh, when the Forth road bridge is replaced. schools said the careers advice they had received was That bridge will not be tolled, but ours will be, and it is bad or very bad, whereas the figure in private schools increasingly difficult to understand why such discrepancies was just 6%. Some 39% of young people attending state and differences can continue in the same country and schools agreed with the statement: still be defended. “I don’t know anyone with a career that I I’d like to do”, I want to go back to the point about London. I will and the figure rose to 45% among those receiving free not make a party political speech, but the fact is that school meals. The polling showed that the Future First London has got away from the rest of the UK, including style of advice was very popular among young people. the north-west. That has got worse over the past decade. Future First receives no Government funding and has That was principally because of the financial services been set up voluntarily. The schools pay for its services, boom in London, which caused the rather frothy increase but at a heavily subsidised rate. Corporate partners in GDP per head there, and we saw the reckoning that provide the bulk of the funding. occurred. One of the reasons why the situation got I have mentioned that example from London in this worse—again, this is not a party political point, but one debate about the north-west because I am keen to see a for both Front Benchers—is because two years ago, similar programme in the north-west, perhaps starting Government capital spending per head in London was in Liverpool—just to conjure a name off the top of my three times what it was in the north-west. That level of head. I have spoken today with Future First, which is discrepancy generated private sector jobs, affluence and keen to go to other parts of the country. That is not an all that went with it for London. I very much hope that alternative to the proper careers advice service my hon. the coalition will do what it can not to let that happen in Friend the Member for Blackpool South spoke about, the future. but on its own the traditional service is not good Infrastructure is part of how the north-south divide— enough. In particular, it is not addressing the skills gaps and lack of social mobility that Members have identified Hugh Bayley (in the Chair): Order. I remind the hon. in the debate. I would be grateful if the Minister responded Gentleman that the subject for debate is a narrow one. specifically on how the Government see the Future We are talking about career opportunities for young First programme. people in the north-west, not about the regional or national economy more generally. 3.16 pm David Mowat: My point is that the degree of affluence David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I, too, and gross domestic product that we can generate in the congratulate the hon. Member for Blackpool South north-west translates to career opportunities. The reason (Mr Marsden) on securing the debate. why many of our young people come down to London It is a pleasure to take part in a debate with the to make their way is because there are not enough phrase “north-west” in the title, because there is a bit of world-class organisations in the north-west. However, I a structural issue in this place about the treatment of will take your point, Mr Bayley, and move on to the the English regions vis-à-vis other parts of the country. changes in education and career opportunities that have We hear a great deal about Scotland, and we have occurred over the past 30 years. Scottish questions. We also have Welsh questions and The jobs that our young people need to do, whether Northern Irish questions. However, we hear little about or not they are in the north-west, are increasingly the English regions, which is why I am pleased to take technology-based and technology-focused. Companies part in the debate. In that regard, at least, people on such as Google, Yahoo!, Facebook, Microsoft and Apple both sides of the Chamber have more in common with are all technology companies. Each has generated perhaps the each other than not. as many as 250,000 jobs in their immediate infrastructure. I want to talk first about how London-orientated our None of them are in the UK, let alone in the north-west. economy is. The gross value added of the north-west is It is important that this country can compete on technology. approximately 60% of London’s, and no other major One of the most striking things that has occurred over 509WH Employment (North-West)6 JULY 2011 Employment (North-West) 510WH

[David Mowat] When the £4 million was removed, the college had already been half-built up out of the ground. The the past 30 years is that while we have increased the furniture had been built and there was absolutely no number of graduates by a factor of five—that applies to scope for a redesign. The college was in a desperate the north-west as well—we have fewer people studying position. The Minister made a successful visit to see the engineering than we did 30 years ago. That is not a building and the condition of the old Skelm college point for just the previous Government or the Government building. Sadly, an offer of £19,000 over three years, before that, because it is what has happened in our which will hardly make an imprint on the £4 million country. The consequence is that many of our young that had been stolen by the Government, was made. I people cannot compete for high-technology jobs or in asked the Prime Minister for help—not a hand-out, but the expanding market in high-technology. That is a a hand-up—for young people, and what have they got? shocking failure—it is possibly one of the most dramatic The college, whose building is now built, will see further failures in education policy in the past. I will be interested cuts in education—a 4% cut in overall funding. It has to hear the Minister’s response to that. lost two thirds of its entitlement funding and is consulting Finally, our economy will continue to be fairly focused on 17 job losses. It has also cut courses to try to meet on manufacturing. A unit of GDP generated from the gap. It can do nothing else about it. At a time when manufacturing uses more energy than a unit of GDP youth unemployment is a severe concern, we should be generated from services. It is important for the north-west investing in the education and training of young people economy, and therefore for the prospects of the young and equipping them for work. people in the north-west, that energy prices are kept I fear for future opportunities for young people. As competitive. I am interested to hear how the Minister cuts and redundancies bite, my concern is that young addresses my concern, which is that this country is people will be lost in the mayhem. Many north-west sleepwalking its way into having higher energy prices MPs lived through the 1980s and early 1990s, witnessing than any similar economy in Europe. That will bear at first hand the scale and depth of economic devastation down particularly hard on parts of the country where that was wrought by Conservative Governments. Towns manufacturing, especially process manufacturing, is a such as Skelmersdale were decimated, with real significant feature. unemployment levels at about 50%. Families were left without work, and many are still feeling the effects of Hugh Bayley (in the Chair): I need to start the winding-up those policies today. We are in danger of going back to speeches at 3.35 pm at the latest. the future if we are not careful. For all the success of the schemes that I have mentioned and many others in West Lancashire, the ability to bring on board the next 3.23 pm generation of workers is increasingly limited. The future Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): I will be brief jobs fund has been scrapped, which will hinder many social and not take long at all. Thank you, Mr Bayley, for enterprises and voluntary organisations. Apprenticeship allowing me to contribute to the debate. It is a pleasure opportunities are limited, and the young apprenticeship to serve under your chairmanship today. scheme is disappearing. In education, the support given to families through I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool the education maintenance allowance is vital. When I South (Mr Marsden) on securing this important debate. talk to young people in my constituency, they tell me I know from his previous work what a great champion that £30 a week is the difference between their going to he is for our region, the north-west, and for young college or not. We have also seen a reduction in entitlement people. Before the debate, I read his article on ePolitix.com, funding, which is vital for further education colleges, and it struck me that the points he raises ring true with providing support to young learners that help them to the experiences in my constituency. We, too, have excellent be job-prepared or prepared for university. Previously, leading-edge companies, fantastic higher and further that group received 114 hours of support. In Skelm education institutions and a population of young people college, that has been slashed to 30 hours. It is clear who are as ambitious and aspirational as any of their from the few examples that I have highlighted that the peers elsewhere in the country. opportunity for young people to develop the skills, In West Lancashire, we have leading companies such knowledge and experience to make them job-ready and as Trelleborg CRP, which is at the forefront of marine able to access career opportunities is being choked off, technology, and the company that was given the job of especially for those from deprived backgrounds. providing Wembley stadium with a surface that we can My message today is that we cannot afford to have all be proud of. We also have social enterprises, for another generation of young people thrown on to the example West Lancashire Community Recycling, which scrap heap. We must address two challenges—ensuring used money from the future jobs fund to support getting that there are career opportunities for the young people people who would otherwise have remained unemployed of the north-west in the north-west, and ensuring that into work. We have the Construction academy in the pathways of support that will prepare them to take Skelmersdale, and we need a strong construction sector advantage of those opportunities are available. One for people to move into. without the other is of no use at all. I want to see an This September, a new £42 million further education economy for the communities such as West Lancashire college will open its doors to students from across West and the north-west that continues to build on the strengths Lancashire and beyond. That college has had £4 million and expertise that we have within the region and that taken away after the Government’s decision to scrap the encourage people to remain there. I once again make a Northwest Development Agency, which was a vital tool plea to the Minister to do what he can to help Skelm in securing investment in the region. I brought that college and young people. We cannot and must not matter to the attention of the Prime Minister last September. forget or write off our young people. 511WH Employment (North-West)6 JULY 2011 Employment (North-West) 512WH

Hugh Bayley (in the Chair): The generosity of the 50% conversion in relation to the future jobs fund to be Opposition spokesman means that there is a little more a success not a failure. We need to learn the lessons of time for Back Benchers. I call Bill Esterson to speak for the past if we are to get it right in the future. a maximum of five minutes. I want briefly to say something about the EMA before I finish. The EMA was crucial to apprenticeships 3.29 pm and to colleges. It was a core part of family income. Evidence from Hugh Baird college in Sefton and elsewhere Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I add my in the north-west shows not only that it was a core part congratulations to those given to my hon. Friend the of family income, but that it increased achievement and Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) on securing attainment. It is hard for college principals to identify a very important debate. Given the good and positive who absolutely needs it and who will continue to attend discussions that we had in the Select Committee on without it. Those issues were not considered in the haste Education some weeks ago on similar topics, I am to make changes. The sorts of changes that have been looking forward to the Minister’s response. made to the EMA, the future jobs fund and the young I shall pick up the excellent points made by my apprenticeship scheme are, as with so many other areas, neighbour in the Chamber today and in the north-west, too far, too fast. That is my major concern. my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie I hope that such an approach will not lead to young Cooper), about rebalancing the economy geographically. people of the current generation paying a very steep It is absolutely crucial that we establish good employment price, as people of my generation did in the ’80s. Even prospects for young people, so that they stay in the now, some of those people have never found well-paid region. We should do that through investment in the jobs or established careers. Their families have paid the local economy. The abolition of the regional development price over many years. I hope that the Minister will agency has created a big problem in achieving that, but address those points in his summing up. We are 14 months there are opportunities. into this Government. If we do not get it right very The port of Liverpool has been mentioned. Although quickly, the time will have passed and it will be too late the cruise terminal would be a welcome development, for this generation as well. we need to go much further than that and provide opportunities for export through the sorts of hi-tech 3.34 pm industry that hon. Members have mentioned. It is absolutely essential that we achieve that for the wider economy Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): I am particularly and for the future of young people. pleased that we are serving under your chairmanship today, Mr Bayley. For my sins, I was campaign manager David Mowat: The RDA has been mentioned in the for the Oldham East and Saddleworth by-election earlier previous two contributions. I do not deny that that this year. I have fond and vivid memories of driving organisation did a great deal of good in the north-west. through the snow on the M62 to deliver the keynote However, if an organisation is given £3 billion a year to speech for the celebration of achievements at a spectacular spend, that is what will happen. Does the hon. Gentleman and ambitious college called York college. I understand accept that each job created by the RDA in the north-west, that you are a massive champion of that fantastic which was one of the better RDAs, cost £60,000? That further education institution, Mr Bayley, so it is a is an awful lot of money, and we need to consider pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. alternatives. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) on securing the debate. I pay Bill Esterson: I am grateful for that intervention, tribute to him not only for being a first-class Member of because it ties in with two other issues that I was going Parliament on behalf of his constituents, but for his to raise: the abolition of the future jobs fund and the excellent work on the Front Bench in respect of further phasing out of the young apprenticeship scheme. Both education colleges and adult skills. He knows how programmes are being phased out because of the high important it is for young people to have opportunities cost of success. The hon. Gentleman is making the provided to allow them to have fulfilling and rewarding same point about the RDA. careers and lives and for professionals to have the support and resources to navigate the young people Esther McVey: It is about not only cost but sustainability. through the options that they face. We should not have short six-month schemes, because We have had a good debate. Hon. Members from all such programmes must lead to sustainability. It is about parties have articulated the enormous potential of the cost and sustainability. north-west. As I was listening to the debate, it struck me that the north-west is very similar in terms of its history Bill Esterson: Those are closely linked issues. Whether and potential to my region of the north-east. We were we are talking about the RDA, the young apprenticeship once the workshop and powerhouse of the world, and scheme or the future jobs fund, the issue is about we also suffered too much from changes to industry in finding better ways of running such schemes, rather the latter half of the 20th century.However, our economies than just abolishing them and leaving a void that could have diversified and both areas now have great potential go on for many years. to take advantage of the opportunities in the 21st-century In the north-west, there was the particular problem global economy. because the recession peaked in 1981, but youth As my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South unemployment only peaked four years later in 1985. said, the north-west has a strong network of further Unless we deal with these issues now, there will be and higher education institutions. It is also very similar a repeat of that pattern. There was success. I consider a to my area of the north-east in having a positive culture 513WH Employment (North-West)6 JULY 2011 Employment (North-West) 514WH

[Mr Iain Wright] In these challenging times, it is more vital than ever that young people have the support, help and tools they of welcoming apprenticeships. My hon. Friend mentioned need to navigate the various options that they face when world-class apprenticeship schemes in the north-west trying secure further education, training or employment. such as those run by BAE Systems. I should like to Now, more than ever, we need an effective careers mention companies such as MBDA in Bolton. I greatly service for young people. That is why the Government’s enjoyed going to that factory when I was a Minister. A inept and shambolic attempts to reform the careers few months ago, I welcomed apprentices from the firm service are particularly damaging. The move from to the House with my hon. Friend the Member for Connexions to a national careers service, with schools Bolton West (Julie Hilling). The quality of MBDA’s having a greater responsibility for the provision of such apprenticeship scheme is absolutely first class. I particularly information, advice and guidance, has been botched. I like the way that apprentices visit schools to teach like the Minister very much—I should like to consider younger pupils about science and engineering. They him as a friend—but I have to tell him that on this spark pupils’ interest in the issues, ignite their ambition occasion and on this issue he is guilty of being asleep on and encourage mentoring and work experience the job. opportunities. The MBDA apprentices are the very I have a series of questions that the Minister needs to model of professionalism. They are marvellous address, and he needs to address them urgently. Will he ambassadors not only for their firm and Bolton, but for update the House as to where we are on the transition young people across the country. plan? In March, during the consideration in Committee The debate has provided a good opportunity to ask of the Education Bill, I stressed to him the urgency of the Government what they have against the young producing rapidly a comprehensive transition plan for people of this country. In the space of a few short the careers service. We are now at the stage, more than months since coming to office, they have stripped young three months after discussing this in Committee, where people of opportunities through the abolition of the we still have no real additional information. That is not future jobs fund, the cancellation of education maintenance good enough. School leavers have a matter of days— allowance, the trebling of tuition fees, the ending of literally, days—left in education, but no real clarity on Aimhigher, the cancellation of the youth opportunities what will happen come September. How shambolic is fund, the ending of young apprenticeships and the loss that? Will the Minister get his finger out and do something of the careers service without any replacement put in quickly to prevent those young people, in the north-west place. and elsewhere, from drifting because of ambiguity, Any Government should be judged on their ambition uncertainty and dithering by the Government into a for the future by the way in which they help, support lifetime of low pay, low skills and low expectations? and nurture young people. I am afraid that this Government have been found wanting at best and downright neglectful I understand that the careers summit between the and damaging to the next generation at worst. It is little Minister and professionals will take place soon—I think wonder that the Education Committee concluded in its it is on 15 July. I fear that this is far too little far too late, recent report on services to young people: but will the Minister provide further information on the agenda and invitees to the event? Parliamentary questions “we comment that the Government’s lack of urgency in articulating from me were answered by the Minister of State, a youth policy or strategic vision is regrettable. The Government needs to acknowledge the reality of what is happening to many Department for Education, the hon. Member for Bognor youth services on the ground and act now.” Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb)—it is unusual to We have heard in the debate how the economic certainties get Education Ministers to answer parliamentary questions, that the post-war generation had have gone for ever. but I will leave it at that—but the answers were spectacularly People in the north-west in the 1950s and ’60s might uninformative. Does the Minister now accept that the have had a very clear form of career road map, as was summit is happening too late? What does the Minister also the case in my patch. People might have gone into hope to achieve from the summit and how will practical the Ferranti works in Hollinwood, Oldham, or been recommendations and suggestions arising from it be employed by Crossley in the constituency of my hon. communicated and disseminated to schools and other Friend the Member for Blackpool South. Alternatively, stakeholders, particularly given the time of the year? they might have worked at the docks in Liverpool or on The summer holidays will start a matter of hours after the railways in Crewe. Those places were the absolute the summit. bedrock of the local economy and provided a certainty Face-to-face guidance was mentioned in the debate, of long-term employment that is no longer there. My and that is a good part of good-quality information, hon. Friend recalled vividly how his father left school at advice and guidance. It worries me that the Department the age of 14 and expected to work in the same place for for Business, Innovation and Skills states on its website 30, if not 40, years. that it will provide: Young people are starting their careers in a much “free face to face guidance to priority groups”. more complex and more challenging world, which has been made even more difficult by the global financial Will the Minister confirm or deny that not all pupils crisis. In an economic downturn, young people will find will receive face-to-face information, advice and guidance? it especially difficult to secure and maintain employment, Will he articulate what the phrase “priority groups” because by definition they do not have experience of actually means, and what will the criteria be for such work. They face that Catch-22 situation—they cannot groups? Will he reassure me that priority groups will find work because they have not got experience, but include all children—all children in schools—to let they cannot secure experience because they have not got them have the opportunity to have face-to-face guidance work. We in the House have to help young people to on careers to allow them to make meaningful choices break that cycle. and decisions about their future career? 515WH Employment (North-West)6 JULY 2011 Employment (North-West) 516WH

The Minister’s Department’s website states: 3.46 pm

“the network of organisations funded by BIS will be able to offer The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong services on the open market to those individuals/organisations Learning (Mr John Hayes): It is a great pleasure to serve which are willing to pay”. under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley. It is also a pleasure to respond to this debate, which I congratulate the hon. Will the Minister explain that in more detail? In particular, Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) on securing. will he rule out the prospect of high-quality information, I am going to discuss three things, and I will try to advice and guidance, including that important point deal with as many of the points that have been raised as about face-to-face careers advice and guidance being possible. First, I want to speak about apprenticeships. provided to pupils only where parents are willing to pay Secondly, I want to talk about the careers service, an additional fee for such a service? Can he rule that out information, advice and guidance, as that is what the immediately? hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) and other hon. Members focused on in particular. But before I Many careers professionals lost their jobs when local deal with those, the third thing that I want to speak authorities dispensed with Connexions at the end of about, which I will deal with first just to create a degree March. The Government talk a good game when they of excitement in my short peroration, is macro-economics. say they wish to trust professionals in education policy Macro-economic strategy is critically important to but not, evidently, when it comes to careers professionals. the future that we want for our young people—indeed, How will the Minister ensure that that experience, skills for all our people. The Government’s emphasis on and professionalism will not be lost permanently for dealing with debt is an important pillar in that strategy. young people, when thousands of staff lost their jobs In that effort, the recalibration of our perspective on in March? what government does and does not do needs to be The Minister is aware, because my hon. Friend the taken into account. The silver lining, if I may put it that Member for Blackpool South rightly pointed it out, way, of the very tough comprehensive spending review that funding for careers has been cut severely. My hon. that we have endured is that we have had to think more Friend mentioned the pooling of 22 separate funding critically about the value for money that we get from all streams, including that for Connexions, into a single the taxpayer funds that we invest. early intervention grant. He made the point, in a great The second pillar of the macro-economic strategy, and articulate way, about the additional services that which is less often spoken of but is no less central to our this early intervention grant has to produce. In addition ambitions, is to rethink the character of our labour to Connexions and youth services, it is intended to fund force. We do so against a background, as the hon. Sure Start children’s centres, build capacity for local Member for Hartlepool said, of greater uncertainty and authorities to extend free early education to disadvantaged more rapid change. In order for our economy to succeed, two-year-olds, provide short breaks for disabled children, it must be more sustainable. That sustainability will support vulnerable young people to engage in education make it better able to endure some of the challenges and training, prevent young people from taking part in that we have faced in the past two years when they risky behaviour such as crime, substance misuse or doubtless happen again, because as you know, Mr Bayley, teenage pregnancy, support young people at risk of economies move in cycles. That redrawing of what mental health problems and help young people who Britain can be and should be requires us to think about have a learning difficulty or disability. There is simply what modern economies look like. Modern economies not the funding in place to have an effective careers are more advanced, more high tech and more highly service. Can the Minister do something about that, skilled, and they change more rapidly. That dynamism, especially when we are thinking that the early and indeed that high-tech work force, will be essential if intervention grant will be cut by a further 11 per cent we are going to develop the productivity and next year? competitiveness that we seek, which underpins prosperity. As Minister, my task is to implement measures that The Government have failed to articulate their vision allow us to develop that high-tech, highly skilled work about how they will help young people develop and force fit for a high-tech, highly skilled economy. That prosper in the most difficult economic circumstances is why I focused so heavily on apprenticeships when for a generation. More damning is that the Government I became a Minister. The hon. Member for Hartlepool—I have simply failed young people. We have seen the have two hon. Members shadowing me, because the Secretary of State for Education lose control over his Opposition know that one would not be enough—is Department, fail to address the real needs that young right that the previous Government understood that, people and industry require and fail to be on the right too. Indeed, he was a Minister in the previous Government. side of the argument on the careers service, school I do not, for a moment, claim that we have a unique capital, school sport and the education maintenance insight into the value of apprenticeships. However, the allowance. He has emphasised elitism in education at difference between his Government and ours—where the expense of excellence for all. As we have heard his Government got this wrong and we have got it several times during the debate this afternoon, we now right—was to make apprenticeships the pivot around face the appalling prospect of a lost generation failing which the rest of the skills offer moves. To do that, we to achieve its potential and having a poorer quality of transferred money from the Train to Gain budget to the life than the previous generation. That is not how it apprenticeship budget, as the previous Government should be. The Minister needs to raise his game and could and should have done. The support that the do something to help the young people of the previous Government gave apprenticeships provided an north-west and, indeed, the young people of the entire important foundation, and there was trend growth in country. apprenticeship numbers—I want to acknowledge that 517WH Employment (North-West)6 JULY 2011 Employment (North-West) 518WH

[Mr John Hayes] Mr Wright: The Minister has mentioned macro- economics. Economic growth has been forecast downwards clearly—but we have gone further and faster than they repeatedly and quite dramatically. Will that impact on did or perhaps would have done. I say that with as much his target of 500,000 apprenticeships, which is obviously generosity as I can summon, which is not easy for a based on demand in the wider economy? party politician, although it is made all the more easy by the two people who shadow me, who are diligent, Mr Hayes: I never have targets; I only have ambitions—it studious, committed and decent. would be vulgar to describe them as targets. The hon. Let us look at how the constituencies of Members Gentleman is right that, at the next stage of implementation, currently in the Chamber are affected. Since we came to we need to tie our skills strategy more closely to growth, office, there has been a modest but not insignificant so next I want to identify those parts of the economy increase of 4% in the number of apprenticeships in the with the biggest growth potential and where skills gaps constituency of the hon. Member for Blackpool South, might inhibit that potential growth. Over the coming and a 13% increase in your constituency, Mr Bayley—all weeks and months, I hope to look specifically at the the figures are based on the latest data, which I announced inhibitors to growth in those areas where we can create to the House on my birthday only a few days ago. In my maximum opportunities for employment, including Parliamentary Private Secretary’s constituency of employment for young people. He is right that, in Bromsgrove, the increase was 16%, in Wirral West 23%, developing the strategy that I laid out last November, in West Lancashire 22%, in Warrington South 11%, in we certainly need to be mindful of growth and, in Liverpool, West Derby 22%, in Sefton South 27% and— particular, of sectors and subsectors where there are real skills gaps that are impacting on productivity and Bill Esterson: Will the Minister give way? competitiveness. For example, I was at Ravensbourne academy today, talking about the creative industries, Mr Hayes: In South Holland and The Deepings the which have real capacity for growth but also unmet increase in apprenticeships was 43%—but I did not demand, and we need to address that issue of skills. know that until I came to the Chamber. Advanced manufacturing is another such example. We need to look at such challenges, and he is right to raise Mr Iain Wright: What about Hartlepool? the issue. I have spoken about macro-economics and Mr Hayes: I am saving Hartlepool—I am building up apprenticeships, although I am at risk of becoming an to it. apprenticeship bore. Suffice to say that, for the whole time that I am the Minister, which my hon. Friends Bill Esterson: The Minister did not mention my throughout the Chamber hope will be for a long time, constituency because it is called Sefton Central, not although that is down to the Prime Minister and not to Sefton South, but I am grateful for the figure. me, apprenticeships will be the pivot. Shaping the skills system around apprenticeships creates a different dynamic I mentioned young apprentices in my speech. The and a different set of expectations, as well as a vocational worrying finding in Professor Wolf’s inquiry was that pathway that is as navigable, progressive, seductive and most of the increased number of apprenticeships have rigorous as the academic route on which so many of us gone to 19 to 24-year-olds. The danger is of a gap travelled. We need a longer vocational ladder, which is among the 16 to 18-year-olds who are not able to take rigorous and provides opportunity for young people, up apprenticeships. How does the Minister intend to and which means that those with practical and vocational rectify that? tastes and talents do not see vocational learning as a cul-de-sac. For too long, people have not seen the route Mr Hayes: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. to higher learning in that vocational pathway, which There are particular pressures on 16 to 18-year-olds, they need to do if they are to make the right choices at and some of those pressures are to do with the perceived the right time that are most likely to allow them to fulfil and real risks for businesses taking on a young person. their potential. That is particularly true for small and medium-sized enterprises—small businesses perceive an associated risk I have said that I will discuss careers advice and because they have a small base—while the capacity of guidance; it would be wrong for me not to do so. I will large organisations to absorb such risk is rather different. be making a major speech on the subject tomorrow, so Nevertheless, the figures that I announced a week ago the hon. Member for Hartlepool can look forward to of about 114,000 more apprenticeships in total throughout that with bated breath. I could say more now but, in the country, amount to the biggest single boost in fact, I will do more than that, although my officials will apprenticeship numbers ever in our history, and I have shudder: I will deal with all the questions that he asked no doubt that at the end of the CSR period we will have today in that speech tomorrow—it will require some 500,000 apprentices, which is a previously undreamed-of redrafting, because we did not know what questions he figure. Also, when I looked closely at the figures, there would pose until a few moments ago—but I will ensure has been growth for 16 to 18-year-olds, for 19 to 24-year-olds that I do, as I owe the hon. Gentleman that. and for 25-plus, which suggests significant latent demand In summary, however, the hon. Gentleman grossly on the part of learners and of employers. We can talk overstated my few weaknesses and understated my many about that at greater length when we have more time, strengths. I do not mind his doing that, because I like but I suspect that we have further untapped demand, as him as he likes me. I believe passionately in advice and well as some trend changes in how businesses are interfacing guidance, for the reasons that my hon. Friend the with the skills system and how learners are making Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) has mentioned. choices about the route best suited to them. She is doing such incredible work: for example, by 519WH Employment (North-West) 6 JULY 2011 520WH pulling together the Wirral youth summit, in just a few Phonographic Performance Ltd days’ time, and by doing immense work promoting careers advice and guidance. My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) and the hon. 4pm Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) understand the difference for social mobility of ambition Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I am and rebalancing advantage in society—as a Tory, I grateful for the opportunity to have this important believe in rebalancing and redistributing advantage in debate under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley. I want to society—and the hon. Member for West Lancashire talk about the licence regime operated by Phonographic (Rosie Cooper) feels the same. Therefore, we need to Performance Ltd, which governs copyright for musical ensure that we give those young people who do not have recordings, and by the associated Performing Rights access to familial networks or similar social networks Society; they issue music licences that cover the copyright the best advice, so that they get their chance of glittering for musical and lyrical compositions. Both licences are prizes as well. That is why we need good advice and required by businesses if they want to play music in guidance. public places or hold a live performance. So we will do three things. First, over the past year, I want to draw attention to the over-complex and we have done a great deal with the careers profession, expensive licensing regime in this market. The problem which in the coming months—certainly by the autumn— has been highlighted by the European Union and the will be in a position to announce an unprecedented Federation of Small Businesses, and by various businesses degree of co-operation among careers professionals, and constituents throughout my constituency in Northern leading to a new set of professional standards with Ireland. The regulations impact financially on many linked training and accreditation. The national careers small enterprises across Britain and Northern Ireland, service will be founded on the expertise and professionalism which are already over-burdened by Government regulation of the careers sector, reprofessionalised and emerging and red tape. Broadly speaking, as we seek to develop from the dark days under the previous regime to a new and grow the economy in Northern Ireland, such measures era of purposeful drive, in which it is valued and its role can place an undue strain on businesses that already is central to the work that we will do to foster social have narrow profit margins. mobility. That will be laid out in the autumn—I always The Government have acknowledged that the economy said that the national careers service would be up and in the north of Ireland needs to be rebalanced, and the running next year, not this year. The hon. Gentleman proposed steps to devolve corporation tax powers to the will have a chance to look at those proposals, and I Northern Ireland Executive are encouraging. However, think that he will be proud of the work that the Careers it has been noted that businesses are still subject to Profession Alliance has done following the work of the around 60 regulations, including licensing arrangements, task force led by Dame Ruth Silver. which cost firms throughout the UK £13 billion. Those Secondly, we will change the statutory duty on schools regulations may be particularly burdensome for our to ensure that they secure independent professional small and medium-sized businesses, which may not advice—the Bill is going through the House now—which have staff dedicated to compliance issues. It is therefore I expect them to do. For too long provision has been important that we pay attention to the criticism that patchy. The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby such firms have expressed about the licensing arrangements talked about the difference between the independent for performance music. sector and the state sector, and he is right. Connexions I would like to draw attention to more specific issues did not do the job—let us be frank. Connexions did within the broader context of the debate. In March some good work, of course, and many people were 2009, the PRS introduced an exemption rate for businesses dedicated to that work, but the structure itself was with fewer than four employees to cover employees faulty, because it had to be a jack of all trades rather playing music in private that was not audible to the than a master of careers. We are therefore changing the public. Under that arrangement, such companies were statutory duty incumbent on schools, and we will deliver to pay £44 a year plus VAT, and that decision has since a tough statutory arrangement to ensure that schools been upheld by the High Court. Such exemptions are live up to it. welcome, but unfortunately they are some way short of Finally, we will provide national access to the national a classification that would help small and medium-sized careers service through co-location with colleges throughout enterprises, given that SMEs are classed as organisations the country and Jobcentre Plus. We will lay all those with fewer than 50 employees. I want to encourage the proposals before the House, so the hon. Member for Government to examine such exemptions, and to make Hartlepool can be confident that, in every part of them more consistent with the definition of a small Britain, young people and others will be able to obtain business. the careers advice and guidance that they need to make the best of themselves—to be their best and to do their best. I will say more tomorrow, but I know that you, Mr Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Bayley, and others will leave this Chamber with a spring After 10 years as a Member of Parliament, I have not in your step, because you know that the Government received one complaint on the subject from an SME in are committed to the young people of the north-west my constituency, and I, too, represent a rural area. and to all the young people of Britain. Most small businesses are content to pay a small price to enable them to use wonderful music to enhance their businesses. When the hon. Lady is talking about exemptions, is she thinking about the musicians, most of whom survive on less than £16,000 a year? If small businesses with fewer than 50 people were exempt, the impact on 521WH Phonographic Performance Ltd6 JULY 2011 Phonographic Performance Ltd 522WH

[Pete Wishart] public performance of 2%, and claims that that is noteworthy. Its last press release around 8 June stated musicians would be massive. Does she understand that that musicians are struggling, and survive on the scraps that “it was achieved despite...extremely difficult trading conditions they get from the PRS? for many of the company’s customers and licensees.” The fact that so many businesses are complaining about the high cost of the licences and the undue strain that it Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his is placing on their finances indicates that there is a more welcome intervention. I recognise that in another life he draconian approach to compliance. It is vital—I say was a musician, and is a member of a popular Celtic this advisedly—that PPL works closely with such businesses, folk band in Scotland, which has played in Northern and that the relationship is symbiotic rather than Ireland on several occasions. I recognise the musicians’ confrontational. Proclaiming their own revenue growth plight, and that they and the music industry are an at a time of difficulty for the businesses that purchase integral part of small businesses. I am reflecting on the their licences is not a step in the right direction. position of small and medium-sized enterprises in Northern Ireland, where we have a predominantly public sector-led As well as considering the level of charges, it is economy, and are trying to grow our economy and important at this stage to consider the sort of businesses encourage small businesses. Any additional taxation or that are most likely to be affected by the current fees simply imperil their financial situation. arrangements. In my constituency, which is on the east coast of Northern Ireland, a large proportion of the economy revolves around the tourism and hospitality Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): Does the hon. Lady industry. The complexity and cost of requiring two agree that it is a blunt instrument to use the arbitrary separate licences, combined with an aggressive compliance definition of small businesses as being those with fewer regime, can put undue pressure on the bars, hotels and than 50 people, when radio usage in small companies is restaurants that form the background and backbone of often higher than in large companies? our tourism industry. If those establishments are forced to cease playing music, business will suffer, customers may leave and the public’s exposure to artists’ music will Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his be greatly decreased. As highlighted in a recent report intervention, but I am simply using the definitions by Consumer Focus, the European Commission proposed by the European Union. I accept his point, commented, in reference to competition, copyright and but perhaps I could continue my speech. collective rights management, that It is likely that many firms with fewer than four “no other sector operates such complex licensing arrangements.” employees are unaware of the exemption, and more Before concluding, I wish to raise an associated and should be done to ensure that they are not paying relevant concern that relates specifically to businesses excessive amounts. That brings me to a related issue: the that play radio stations. Although the radio station will cost of referring a case or complaint to the Copyright have paid a royalty fee for playing the music, the small Tribunal can be prohibitive. As Consumer Focus or medium-sized enterprise effectively has to pay that highlighted, that is especially likely to be the case for fee again, which I consider amounts to double taxation. small and medium-sized businesses, and even for a In a similar manner, an hotel may be faced with a trade association, such as the Federation of Small double cost for playing music in separate areas. That Businesses. We must be especially aware of such concerns overly severe and inflexible approach damages small given the relative monopoly held by the collection businesses. If those businesses are forced to stop playing organisations. Businesses have no alternative within the music, it will hurt not only the businesses but those market. artists who, as the hon. Member for Perth and North In contrast with most other European countries and Perthshire (Pete Wishart) pointed out, may live off a the US, the UK does not provide in law for the regulation small wage and rely on being played on the radio for of licensing collection bodies, and no authority is charged exposure. In summary, the licensing arrangements, which with their ongoing supervision, except in relation to the in some instances comprise many different tariffs, are ad hoc resolution of complaints through the Copyright cumbersome and cost-prohibitive for many owners of Tribunal. Given that somewhat unbalanced field of small and medium-sized businesses. play, it is important to consider the charges that companies Mike Weatherley: I wonder whether the hon. Lady face. With reference to the PPL charges, businesses will expand on one aspect of that argument. If music is defined by the European Commission as small enterprises a necessity and part of the raw material required to —including, for example, a hair salon with more than provide a service in a café, for example, how does it four employees and with more than five treatment or differ from any other products offered by that café, such stylist chairs—that use a radio, CD player or MP3 as coffee? Does the hon. Lady suggest that the Government player will have to pay PRS £169 and PPL £121 a year. should subsidise all other services offered by that business? An office or factory with 135 employees will pay PRS £1,142.03, plus VAT, and PPL from £113 depending on Ms Ritchie: If I may, I will say with a degree of square metres. A small café seating up to 30 people will temerity that there is a major difference between paying be charged for television, radio and CD. The PRS fee two licence fees, and paying for coffee and other services will be £440.72 and the PPL fee will be from £113, offered by a café. I am sure that we could elaborate depending on square metres. further in the margins of the debate. Set against that, I note that the PPL’s total licence fee The licensing arrangements, combined with what is income grew 10.7% to £143.5 million from £129.6 million perceived to be an increasingly draconian compliance the previous year. It boasts of a revenue growth from regime, is putting businesses under pressure. If we recognise 523WH Phonographic Performance Ltd6 JULY 2011 Phonographic Performance Ltd 524WH that, we must find a solution that protects our valuable As the hon. Lady has said, PPL plays an important music industry, of which small businesses form an part in that system. Like all collecting societies, it has a integral part. I urge the Government to take steps to valuable role in managing and clearing rights. Its collective create a simpler and more effective licensing regime. It is licensing activities mean that users do not have to vital that licensing requirements and costs do not approach every single rights holder for permission, disproportionately impact on small and medium-sized which helps to reduce transaction costs. As a collecting businesses at a time when many already face a challenging society, PPL is a private commercial organisation that economic climate. manages the rights of its members. The collecting society In Northern Ireland, all parties are collectively trying functions of PPL and all other collecting societies are to rebalance the economy and change it from being 77% not specifically regulated by the Government. PPL acts public sector-led, to a system that puts greater emphasis on the basis of mandates given to it by its members, on the private sector and will provide opportunities for which it uses to license those rights—the exclusive rights people to develop business ideas. Given the degree of that the international and domestic legal framework compliance involved in the licensing system, and the gives to copyright owners—for those who want them. fees that are charged in such a cumbersome way, the The licensing system in the UK is relatively unregulated charges need to be streamlined so that people and compared with other jurisdictions. Our system expects businesses can enjoy greater comfort. People should be the licensor and the licensee—or their representative able to enjoy the music without facing difficult charges. body or trade association—to negotiate freely and agree It is vital that the licensing requirements be streamlined a market rate for the licence. If negotiations break and reviewed as a matter of urgency, and on behalf of down, the licensee or their representative can refer the small to medium-sized enterprises throughout Britain matter to the Copyright Tribunal. The collecting society and Northern Ireland, I ask the Minister to take those has no corresponding right. That is intended to act as a views on board. I recognise that we have devolved check on the power of what is effectively a monopoly arrangements in Northern Ireland, but the responsibility supplier when dealing with, for example, the kind of for licensing lies in London. small businesses championed by the hon. Lady. As the hon. Lady will know, Professor Hargreaves 4.14 pm has reviewed these matters. In his work, he noted that collecting societies in the UK fulfil a valuable role in The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong licensing markets, but that they are also effectively Learning (Mr John Hayes): It is delightful, Mr Bayley, unregulated natural monopolies. Licensees do not generally to speak in successive debates in this Chamber under enjoy the protections that are available to consumers your benevolent stewardship. I congratulate the hon. when dealing with broadly comparable organisations Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing this such as utility companies. Professor Hargreaves debate and on her speech, and in the short time available recommended that collecting societies should be required I will do my best to deal with some of the points she has by law to adopt codes of practice approved by the raised. Intellectual Property Office and UK competition authorities I hope that hon. Members will join me in recognising to ensure that they operate in a way that is consistent the success of the 45,000 performers and almost 5,000 with the further development of efficient, open markets. record companies that are members of Phonographic Following that inquiry and review, the Government Performance Ltd. They make a significant contribution are considering their response to Hargreaves’s to the cultural life and economic wealth of our country. recommendations, which will be made public in the The industry of which they are part—the creative near future. The hon. Lady’s Adjournment debate could industries—acts as an important ornament to all that not be timelier, because the Government are open-minded we are and all that we do. It is one of the big growth about this issue, mindful of the recommendations and areas in our economy and has the support of the anxious to move forward. The constraints within which Government. We are working with the creative industries we work are, of course, international and European to develop ways in which they can grow still further. obligations. The hon. Lady will be familiar with those, Our country is home to the largest national creative too. None the less, I think that further progress can be sector in Europe, and the creative industries account for made, and I will say a few words about that in the time 5.6% of gross value added in the UK, and provide available to me. around 2 million jobs. They are not merely ornamental but make a difference to the health and well-being of Ms Ritchie rose— our economy and of communities up and down Britain. Mr Hayes: The hon. Lady wants to intervene to Intellectual property and the copyright system lie at inform my brief contribution with her expertise. the heart of our creative industries. Many of those industries are small firms—the hon. Lady drew our Ms Ritchie: I thank the Minister for his answer and attention to that once again in her speech. PPL tells us his speech so far. He has referred to the Government that the vast majority of its members are small and response to the investigation and report by Professor medium-sized enterprises. As she has said, those industries Hargreaves. Can he provide an estimated timetable for rely on copyright to survive, and it provides them with a the Government response? Is it likely to be produced in legal framework to sustain and protect creative value. the next month, the next two to three months or the Although we are committed to minimising unnecessary next six months? burdens on small businesses, we also want to maintain a fair and balanced copyright system in which artists can Mr Hayes: I shall deal with that specific question gain fair rewards for creative works, and licensees can before I finish speaking. No doubt inspiration will wing expect access to content via a licensing system that is its way to me to inform my response—the hon. Lady fair, transparent, and reasonable. knows what I mean by that. She has made it clear that 525WH Phonographic Performance Ltd6 JULY 2011 Phonographic Performance Ltd 526WH

[Mr Hayes] bearing on their core business. Thirdly, inquiries suggest that not all trade associations are aware that they can there are areas in which we can make improvements, have a role in negotiating the terms and conditions of notwithstanding the constraints to which I have referred. the licence for their sector. Some trade associations and Ah! Inspiration may already have reached me, but I licensees are even unaware that they can take a case to want—not tantalisingly, but temptingly—to delay what the Copyright Tribunal, if they are unhappy with the I say about that for a few moments. terms and conditions. They simply do not know their entitlements. The tribunal secretariat is working to raise Pete Wishart: I am very much looking forward to the awareness in those areas. It hosts regular user group Minister’s reply to tomorrow’s debate on the Hargreaves meetings, which are aimed at making the tribunal more recommendations. He knows that nothing in the Hargreaves accessible by familiarising users, especially SMEs, with report suggests or recommends exempting small and its procedures and giving them an opportunity to meet medium-sized businesses with fewer than 50 people, so the chairman and lay members. The secretariat also can he now rule that out and ensure that musicians hosts regular meetings of collecting societies to discuss, continue to get fair play from the wonderful recorded among other things, concerns raised by licensees. works that they provide, which enhance so many businesses up and down the country? I will also ask Baroness Wilcox to advance our work with trade associations. Of course, we do not exert Mr Hayes: We will not exempt small firms. That is the executive power in that respect, but we will take the answer to the question. The hon. Gentleman has raised work further to ensure that all the steps are accelerated. the issue, and there is a case for exempting small firms, It seems to me that a seminar might be appropriate. I but the frank answer to his question and the question am thinking of a seminar in which the interested parties asked by the hon. Member for South Down is that the are brought together to talk through what further steps UK would almost certainly be in breach of its international might be taken to deal with some of the specific issues and European obligations if it did so. I can be very clear relating to small businesses raised by the hon. Member about that. for South Down. Perhaps my ministerial colleague will Let me deal with the hon. Lady’s intervention. Within write to her and other interested hon. Members, addressing the next month, she will learn more—because I will the possibility of just such an initiative. insist on it—about the Government’s response and thoughts I have heard much in this debate that provides food on how we can take forward the review’s recommendations, for thought. We do not take these matters lightly. In where we feel that it is appropriate to do so. relation to charities, PPL has agreed to joint licensing I want to say more about what further progress can with PRS for Music, which should reduce administrative be made. First, we need to ensure that people understand burdens. The hon. Member for South Down will know the law and understand what not only PPL but all about that. We might be able to discuss, at the type of collecting societies from whom they need a licence are event that I have described, further steps along those doing. We know from the ministerial postbag and from lines, because there are community organisations—some our constituency postbags and surgeries that many of them are very small—that struggle to deal with some small businesses are unaware that they need a licence of these matters, not least in terms of information and for the activities that we are discussing. The hon. Lady understanding. On that basis, I welcome the agreement has made the point clearly. Many businesses question that has been reached and encourage exploration of why they need a licence from PPL and PRS for Music to other areas for joint licensing, notwithstanding the point have the radio on in business premises when the broadcaster that I made about exemption and the perfectly proper has already paid for a licence. Many ask why they need point that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire a licence at all. Where they do require licences from (Pete Wishart) has raised. both PRS for Music and PPL, some businesses query, We will reflect carefully on these matters before reasonably enough, why they are not told clearly that responding formally to the recommendations of the they need two licences and why joint licensing is not review. We will continue to work to ensure that the used to cut costs and the time that they have to spend framework is explicable and accessible and that it operates on that. fairly. There is a balance to be struck between the PPL tells us that it is doing more to raise awareness interests of different parties, as I think has been made among licensees and potential licensees. As a result of clear in this brief debate. Those parties have a legitimate this debate, our further consideration and representations expectation that the system will work fairly. The regulation made to us from outside this place and within it, we will should certainly not be burdensome, and we need to continue to press PPL to fulfil that commitment. Indeed, ensure that we have some understanding of the costs of as a result of the debate, I will ask Baroness Wilcox, the regulation. When we promote steps that are designed who is the Minister with responsibility for this area, to to ensure that a system is operating fairly, we should meet representatives of PPL to talk about how they can always do so on the basis of understanding the cost make the commitment real and what further steps they burden that it creates. We also feel—I am sorry; I am will be taking to address some of the questions that I using the royal “we”. I also feel that measurement of have raised. Trade associations, too, must continue to the function of these agencies is important, so having build on the work that they do to raise awareness proper lines of accountability to ensure that what is among their members. We will certainly involve them in being done is working as it should be is important. that discussion. This has been a useful albeit short debate. As I have Secondly, where charges are justified, they should be said, it is remarkably timely. I hope that I have made applied in a clear, unambiguous and efficient manner. reasonable commitments to the hon. Member for South Those wanting to start new businesses must not be Down as a result of it. She will hear more very soon deterred by uncertainties about charges that have no about our further reflections. 527WH 6 JULY 2011 Special Olympics 528WH

Special Olympics July 1968, the first international Special Olympic games were held in Chicago, Illinois, and a movement was born. The Special Olympics have grown magnificently 4.29 pm across the world, and the last UK summer games were Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): It is always a held in the city of Leicester, in the constituency of the pleasure to serve under your stewardship, Mr Bayley. I hon. Member for Leicester South (Jon Ashworth). hope that you will be as benevolent to me as you were to Jon Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): The hon. the Minister in the previous debate. Gentleman and I have something in common, inasmuch Two Saturdays ago, I was in Athens for the opening as we have both been Leicester South by-election candidates, ceremony of the largest sporting event in the world in so I know that he is familiar with the city of Leicester. 2011, yet I knew full well that few people in the United Does he agree not only that the games held there in Kingdom realised that it was happening. The centrepiece 2009 were a great success for the city, and hugely of the day was the spectacular opening ceremony of the beneficial and inspiring for many of the athletes, but Special Olympics world summer games. It was a beautiful that they played a great role in countering what might parade of 7,500 athletes from 185 nations, who were to be described as misunderstandings about disabled athletes? compete in 22 sports over the following days. As they That is something to celebrate. walked past me, I felt truly humble to be present at such a wonderful occasion. Chris Heaton-Harris: Absolutely, and I thank the Over the last two weeks in Greece, people have been hon. Gentleman for his contribution. Given the opportunity, celebrating the ability, the talent and the dedication of I hope that he will come to a Special Olympics event those athletes with learning difficulties and their coaches. with me and experience again, first hand, exactly how Team GB comprised 214 Britons—157 athletes and 57 brilliant these athletes are. It is difficult to describe the coaches. They were out there to win. Make no mistake achievements that these athletes attain. They are doing about it: these are dedicated and seriously talented things that I cannot do. I competed in one of their sportsmen and women. When they returned to the UK unified sports two Sundays ago. I was cycling against yesterday, our athletes brought back many special things two learning-disabled athletes; my partner was from with them, including tales of tough competition and Hungary and was the co-sponsor of an event. I came a inspirational personal achievement, the odd bruise and miserable fourth, and I was trying really hard. They are injury and 187 medals—72 gold, 63 silver and 52 bronze. proper athletes doing a proper job; I certainly would Great Britain can truly be proud of its Special Olympians. not be able to do what they, with their disabilities, do. However, we must remember that just to be there, they The Special Olympics movement is where learning- each had to raise £2,000, and that includes the coaches. disabled athletes celebrate and are celebrated for their They receive no sponsorship, and for a while now they accomplishments. It is often the first time that these have received no lottery funding. athletes have truly taken centre stage and been recognised There are 1.3 million people with learning difficulties as individuals in their own right. Sport is a central in the United Kingdom, so most families are touched element of the movement, but it is not the only one. In by learning difficulties in one shape or form. However, areas as diverse as health care, leadership training, the Special Olympics are largely unknown here, and I legislative self-advocacy and employment, the Special hope that this debate will change that, if only in a small Olympics take a global leadership role. way. Indeed, the press coverage given to the Special Tim Shriver, Eunice Kennedy Shriver’s son and now Olympics world games in Athens over the last two chief executive officer of the Special Olympics, says: weeks—bar the beautiful and brilliant exception of ITV “Sport teaches us to recognize our similarities over our differences Central, which covered the games daily on its news while celebrating the effort to do one’s best in a spirit of respect. broadcasts—was difficult to spot. And while Special Olympics has had a positive impact on many persons with an intellectually disability, there are many more Dignity, acceptance and a chance to reach one’s people that are still hidden, shunned or abused. We look forward potential are things that all politicians believe are worth to working more closely with the international sports community promoting for everyone, and for more than four decades to broaden the reach of our organizations and bring the joy and the Special Olympics movement has been bringing a goodwill of sport to many more people.” simple message to the world: learning-disabled people Through year-round sports training and competition, can and will succeed if they are given the opportunity. the Special Olympics empower learning-disabled individuals After visiting institutions across the United States for in more than 180 countries. The games are often the people with what the Americans call intellectual disabilities only place where they have the opportunity to participate in the late 1950s and early 1960s, Eunice Kennedy in their communities and to develop a belief in themselves. Shriver, a wonderful lady, found herself appalled by Many lead lives of neglect and isolation, hidden away their treatment. She believed that, given the same or socially excluded from full participation in schools or opportunities and experiences as others, they were far society. The Special Olympics transform the athlete and more capable than commonly believed. She had a vision are a gateway to empowerment, competence, acceptance that things could be improved through the medium of and joy. Better than that, the movement also transforms sport. communities. When people see Special Olympians in Shriver put that vision into action in 1962 by inviting action, they see humanity, joy in competition, pride and children with intellectual disabilities to Camp Shriver, a potential, and they begin to believe in a different sort summer day-camp in her backyard, where they could of world—a world in which everyone is respected and explore their capabilities in a variety of sports and included. physical activities. The Camp Shriver concept—that I shall give some examples. In 2009, the Afghanistan through sports, people with intellectual disabilities could world winter games floor hockey team was honoured realise their potential for growth—began to spread. In with congratulations from the highest levels of Government 529WH Special Olympics6 JULY 2011 Special Olympics 530WH

[Chris Heaton-Harris] the Special Olympics movement. I suppose that the Minister could possibly help, though; recently, it has as a tribute to their success. In Romania, children who been difficult for Special Olympics GB representatives were once solitary and forgotten now participate in to meet the officials who deal with learning-disabled sports training and interact regularly with the community and inclusion issues in the Department for Education outside their institutions. In the United States, the young and the Department of Health. It would be helpful if he girl who was bullied or isolated early in her life is chosen could use his good offices to set up some meetings. I as homecoming queen. In China—I went to the Shanghai believe that the movement and the Departments could Special Olympics summer games four years ago—people learn a great deal from each other. who were hidden away in their homes now receive The main thing that I want to hear from the Minister vocational and literacy training at thousands of “sunshine is the Department’s, and his, commitment to the Special centres” across the provinces. Olympics movement across the UK. I want him to say The Special Olympics movement is also a catalyst for how he can help to raise the profile of the movement societal change, fostering community building around here, and hopefully he may give a few words of the globe. It is a leader in diversity and tolerance congratulation to all those who have represented their education, bringing young people with and without country so brilliantly in Athens over the past couple of intellectual disabilities together in youth and schools weeks. outreach programmes. It is a research leader, partnering with Governments, non-governmental organisations and 4.41 pm the private sector to develop new ways of including The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, people with learning disabilities in all aspects of society. Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): I The movement is also the world’s largest public health am pleased to be speaking under your chairmanship, organisation serving people with learning disabilities, Mr Bayley. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member offering free health screening to the world’s most neglected for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) on securing this populations. It is the fastest growing grass-roots volunteer important debate. I acknowledge, too, the presence and movement on the planet, with the potential to improve contribution of the hon. Member for Leicester South the quality of life of millions of people. (Jon Ashworth), who also takes an interest in the subject. Why did I ask for this debate? As a fan, I wanted to tell everyone how much I enjoyed watching Great British It goes without saying that I am delighted to begin by athletes competing in the Athens games just over 10 congratulating all the participants in the 2011 Special days ago. As a spectator, I want to say how fantastic the Olympics world summer games, which finished on Monday opening ceremony, and the buzz around the events, was. in Athens. As my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry It was wonderful to watch our athletes competing for pointed out, there was an outstanding performance by their country, and to see the parents’ pride as they the Great Britain Special Olympics team, who won 187 watched them. As a consumer, I want to let people medals—72 gold, 63 silver and 52 bronze; it is worth know that the sponsors of such events deserve huge repeating that. It was not in my notes to congratulate praise. Indeed, Coca-Cola should stand up and take a Coca-Cola, but I will follow the lead of my hon. Friend bow; it gave an awful lot of money to the games. As a and pay tribute to it for sponsoring the Special Olympics friend of Tim Shriver, I want to pay proper respect to and helping to make them such an outstanding success. him and his family, especially his mother, for driving the We are rightly proud of the team’s fantastic achievement movement forward so strongly. As a politician, I want in Athens, and it is clear that every competitor did their to remind my peers how important the inclusion agenda best. I will not comment on my hon. Friend’s athletic is, and that we do not constantly have to reinvent the prowess, but I can guarantee that if I were to compete in wheel. We have a brilliant example of what we should a cycle race, I would not finish fourth; I would probably all be aiming for in the Special Olympics movement, finish last. Some Special Olympians had the chance to and I am proud to be associated with it. visit the Prime Minister at No. 10 before leaving for the The Minister will know that Sport England is talking games, and I am sure that there was an equally warm to Special Olympics Great Britain about the possibility welcome for all the competitors, and the people who of funding in the future. I hope that any logjams can be have supported them in Greece, when they arrived back eased. Perhaps the Minister could use his good offices at Heathrow yesterday. to get a group of people in a room and knock a few It is worth spending half an hour of parliamentary heads together to try to free up funding that could time acknowledging the success and work of the improve the lives of thousands of people across the competitors. By calling this debate, my hon. Friend will country. It would be much better if Sport England have further boosted the pride of the competitors and could treat Special Olympics Great Britain as any other their parents, families and friends, and for that alone he national sporting governing body, rather than as an must be congratulated. He has been a supporter of the individual sport. Over the years that I have been involved Special Olympics movement for many years, going back in sport, I have heard numerous gripes from the various to the time when he was an MEP. He knows better than sports bodies that have had to deal with Sport England, most about the many years of work that have gone into so I understand that it is a complex beast, but I would the success of team GB in this year’s Special Olympics. like to think that when it comes to disability sports, Special Olympics Great Britain was formed to offer a funding blockages can be removed. lifetime of learning through sport. Even though we However, I am not here to ask the Minister for more should celebrate its most recent achievements, it is also money. I know that he is a fan of the Special Olympics right that we recognise the many benefits that the Special movement, but much as I would love more money from Olympics bring to individuals of all ages and ability the Government coffers for the movement, that is not levels every day, from those with low motor abilities to the purpose of the debate. The purpose is to celebrate the most highly skilled athletes. By bringing together 531WH Special Olympics6 JULY 2011 Special Olympics 532WH coaches and volunteers to provide sports training and competitions, including the 2012 Paralympics. Four sports competition for children and adults with learning disabilities, were targeted for inclusion in London 2012: athletics, regardless of their ability, Special Olympics GB not rowing, swimming and table tennis. only reaches out to those who participate, but brings This decision is most welcome, and we look forward their families, friends and volunteers closer to sport, too. to seeing our best intellectually disabled athletes competing With such excellent credentials, I can understand why once again at the very highest level. However, much my hon. Friend asks what the Government are doing to work remains to be done by the sports themselves support Special Olympics GB, and to help make its before the participation of learning disabled athletes good work go further. My Department and this can be guaranteed in London 2012. Indeed, the Government support its work and will continue to do international governing body for rowing has decided so. I will certainly use my good offices to ensure that he not to take up the opportunity at this time. gets the meetings that he needs to increase awareness of UK Sport has set aside funding for learning disabled Special Olympics GB in government, and to get any athletes in athletics, swimming and table tennis, now support that he feels is necessary for this important part that that category of athlete has been readmitted to the of British sport. Paralympics. The funds will be allocated to the sports, following confirmation and the outcome of the classification As my hon. Friend knows, Sport England’s aim is to standards and qualification process by the international grow and sustain participation in grass-roots sport. federation. Central to its work is the £480 million it invests directly Since that decision, the International Paralympic through the 46 national governing bodies of sport. Committee world swimming championships have taken Disability provision is woven into the work of the place in Holland, and they included six events for national governing bodies, so part of that investment athletes with an intellectual disability. The Great Britain will contribute to increasing disability participation in team included four intellectually disabled athletes, who sport. The approach is entirely inclusive and looks to won four medals including two golds. I can also confirm offer opportunities for everyone to participate in sport, that a number of intellectually disabled swimmers are regardless of their gender, disability or ethnic background. already in receipt of public funding through UK Sport’s Sports are tailored to meet the specific needs of those world class programme to assist them in their preparations groups of people, so they are not separated out from for London 2012. I am sure that my hon. Friend will other participants, and that helps to increase accessibility. agree that those are very positive developments. To help build capacity and expertise in disability We fought very hard to get a good settlement for sport, Sport England and the national governing bodies sport in the comprehensive spending review. We did work with the English Federation of Disability Sport. well, and in a highly challenging economic climate, we As the umbrella organisation for disability sport, it has have been able to go a long way to protect the central responsibility for the promotion and development of funding streams that we believe add genuine value to sporting opportunities for the 11 million disabled people the sports sector and the people that it serves. However, in England, by providing expertise and advice and by there will be financial constraints on our ambitions, and bringing together eight national disability sport we will have to consider creative solutions to difficult organisations recognised by Sport England, one of which problems. For example, our changes to national lottery is Special Olympics GB. funding have helped to release more funds for sport of every kind. I was delighted to hear today’s announcement by It is also important to recognise that there are a Sport England—perhaps it was not unrelated to this number of competing priorities for sport funding. The debate—that it will, for the first time, directly fund latest figures on participation show that far too many of disability sports organisations to advise, support and us do no sport at all and those of us who do participate guide other sports bodies as they create opportunities do not do enough sport. That is a fundamental problem, for participation by disabled people. and we need to solve it. Of course, we need to take a proportionate approach, but we also need to prioritise, To complement that core investment, Places People so Special Olympics GB must be considered alongside Play is Sport England’s mass participation legacy initiative priorities for disability sport and sport more widely. that will bring the magic of the London games into the heart of local communities, and that includes a specific That is not to say that there are not opportunities focus on disability. Furthermore, the school games will that we should consider. As I indicated earlier and as offer meaningful competitive sporting opportunities to my hon. Friend called for, my Department can consider young people with both physical and learning disabilities having closer collaboration with the Department of at every level. Health and the Department for Education. We also need to look closely at the evidence. Sport England’s A lot of work is going on in many places to help get active people survey measures participation in sport, people with disabilities, including learning disabilities, but a breakdown of disability by type was only included into grass-roots sport. A lot is also going on at the in the survey from October last year. We should be top-end of sport, too. When we won the right to host able to examine the evidence more fully by December the Olympic and Paralympic games in London in this year. 2012, UK Sport became clearly focused on achieving When my hon. Friend the Minister for Sport and the performance and medal success. That investment strategy Olympics met Karen Wallin, the chief executive of was limited to the Olympic and Paralympic summer Special Olympics GB, earlier this year they had a very sports. However, the International Paralympic Committee positive discussion. In particular, they covered the lessons General Assembly agreed in November 2009 to include, that had been learned from the Special Olympics GB once again, learning disabled participants in IPC national summer games that, as we have heard, were 533WH Special Olympics6 JULY 2011 Special Olympics 534WH

[Mr Edward Vaizey] In the meantime, once again, I pay tribute to the fantastic performance of the competitors and volunteers held in Leicester in 2009. My hon. Friend hopes to in Athens, and I congratulate Special Olympics GB on attend the launch of the report about those games, and its excellent work. I know that he will give the same message that I give Question put and agreed to. here: there is more to do and we will keep working with Special Olympics GB to try to do it. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry will also follow 4.52 pm developments closely. Sitting adjourned. 95WS Written Ministerial Statements6 JULY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 96WS

regeneration to local areas. Under HCA supervision of Written Ministerial the stewardship arrangement HCA will establish local committees to allow local partners such as local authorities, Statements businesses, LEPs and others to influence development of the portfolio. National policy interests will be managed Wednesday 6 July 2011 through BIS and DCLG representation on a newly constituted Land and Property Board, and with BIS local membership of the local stewardship committees. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The portfolio includes income-generating assets which will provide investment funds for those assets which Regional Development Agencies (Transfer of Land and need further development. This recycling of receipts Property Assets) should enable the arrangement to be largely self-financing. DCLG will use its powers under section 51 of the The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 to transfer the and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): The coalition is committed assets from the RDAs to HCA. The detail of these to closing the regional development agencies (RDAs) transfers is still being agreed. The Secretary of State for and facilitating the delivery of economic development Communities and Local Government will approve at the local level through supporting the establishment the final list of assets to be transferred. Details of the of local enterprise partnerships (LEPs) and the existing transfer order will appear on the DCLG and BIS websites role of local authorities in fostering and sustaining once it has been made. We will set out detail of the growth. assets being put into the stewardship arrangement by In the 12 years they have existed the RDAs have LEP area at that point. There will be a transfer of staff undertaken the acquisition, development and sale of a from the RDAs to the HCA in accordance with TUPE range of land and property assets for the purposes of regulations. providing economic development to local communities, assistance in deprived areas, and regeneration to encourage Under a similar but separate stewardship arrangement, growth and new business. However, this model is no BIS will contract HCA to manage its interests in three longer affordable in the current economic climate and nationally important technology parks; Ansty Park, we need to agree a future for these assets that is affordable Coventry; the Advanced Manufacturing Park, Rotherham; while enabling them to be developed in a way that is and SPark, Bristol. HCA will manage these in order to responsive to local needs. continue the development of these land assets which will maximise their impact on economic growth. These In preparation for closure, each of the eight RDAs sites have been identified as assets of national importance (outside London) has developed a plan for their assets to be retained under the ownership of central Government and liabilities. The National Transition Board, chaired in order to be developed further to support investments by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills in innovation and technology. Four facilities based on (BIS) and involving the RDAs, the Department for these sites form part of the recently established High Communities and Local Government (DCLG), HM Value Manufacturing Technology and Innovation Centre Treasury and others, has considered these plans. In funded by the Technology Strategy Board. relation to land and property assets, on 14 April I confirmed my agreement to: This transfer is in line with the principles for disposal of assets published on 10 February 2011, which can be Disposal of sites that are market ready, where the economic development and regeneration objectives have been achieved; viewed at www.bis.gov.uk/rda-assets. I will provide an Market disposal of sites to local authorities who want to opportunity for Members of the House to discuss these acquire assets; transfers at a meeting early in the autumn, once the Retention within central Government of key national land local details of the transfers have been established. assets including those where technology and innovation centres (TICs) are located; Transfer of the RDA coalfield sites to the Homes and Communities Agency (HCA). TREASURY I am confirming today the Government’s intention to transfer the majority of the RDA land and property Planned Tax Consultations portfolio, into a “stewardship” arrangement through which local partners, including local authorities, businesses, LEPs and others, will be able to influence their development The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David and ensure they are developed in a way which maximises Gauke): Budget 2011 announced a number of tax policy economic outcomes for the area. Most of these sites are changes and longer-term tax reforms that will be subject not ready for market sale and in the majority of cases to consultation. These are summarised in the tax require further investment to deliver economic benefits. consultation tracker, which is available on the HM Treasury To achieve delivery of this we intend to transfer title to website at: these assets to the Homes and Communities Agency http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/tax_updates.htm. (HCA), which will be responsible and accountable for managing the portfolio. Subject to completion of the HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) and HM Treasury necessary detailed work and arrangements the transfer have today published the following consultation document: is currently planned to take place on 19 September 2011. Enterprise Investment Scheme (EIS) and Venture Capital The HCA will use its expertise in land and property Trusts (VCD)—A consultation on a scheme to provide management to ensure that the assets are fully developed further support for seed investment, simplification of in a way that will help deliver economic growth and the enterprise investment scheme (EIS) rules by removing 97WS Written Ministerial Statements6 JULY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 98WS some restrictions on qualifying shares and types of in the foundation years, which we will shortly be setting investor and refocusing both EIS and Venture Capital out in full, in a publication jointly developed with the Trusts (VCTs) to ensure they are targeted at genuine Department of Health. risk capital investments. On 30 March Dame Clare Tickell published her The following consultation document will be published independent review of the early years foundation stage, on 7 July: informed by the latest evidence about how children Modernising Powers, Deterrents and Safeguards: Bringing learn and develop, and the views of parents and carers, HMRC’s information powers into line with international practitioners, academics and other experts. The Government standards for tax information exchange—A consultation welcomed her report, and the revised framework, on on proposals to bring the UK’s information gathering which we are today beginning consultation, responds powers fully into line with international standards set to many of Dame Clare’s recommendations. The new by the OECD. framework makes a number of significant improvements: Updates to dates for some consultations planned for Reducing bureaucracy and paper work for professionals, July have been made to the tax consultation tracker. simplifying the statutory assessment of children’s development at age five; Simplifying the learning and development requirements, reducing DEFENCE the number of early learning goals from 69 to 17; Stronger emphasis on the three prime areas which are most People, Pay and Pensions Agency essential for children’s healthy development—personal, social and emotional development, physical development and communication and language (with four specific areas in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence which the prime areas are applied—including literacy and (Mr Andrew Robathan): With effect from today, the mathematics); People, Pay and Pensions Agency (PPPA) will cease to A new summary report for parents on their child’s development have the status of executive agency of the Ministry of between the ages of 24 and 36 months, linking with the Defence (MOD). healthy child review carried out by health visitors, so that children get any additional support they need before they The People, Pay and Pensions Agency (PPPA) was start school; and formed in April 2006 to bring together civilian pay, Strengthening partnerships between professionals and parents, pension and human resource (HR) services. The PPPA ensuring that the new framework uses clear language. subsumed the Pay and Personnel Agency (PPA) and Consultation on the early years foundation stage will became the single provider of all corporate civilian run until 30 September. The aim is to have the new personnel services to the MOD. framework in place from September 2012. My right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Defence, announced on 22 March 2011, Official Report, columns 49-50WS, the intention to establish the new INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Defence Business Services (DBS) organisation, bringing together the delivery of a range of corporate service Horn of Africa functions to support all areas of the Department from one organisation. The DBS stood up on 1 July 2011 and the civilian HR function of the DBS provided by the The Secretary of State for International Development PPPA has been renamed as DBS Civilian HR. (Mr Andrew Mitchell): The horn of Africa is currently This change in operating status will have no impact experiencing a major humanitarian crisis: 10 million on PPPA’s customers and will deliver efficiencies and people are in need of emergency relief and the situation wider savings to Government, in particular the costs is likely to get worse, in places, before it improves when incurred in auditing the agency’s annual report and the next rains come. This is the horn of Africa’s most accounts. severe drought since 1995. In some areas, 2010-11 has been the driest period in 60 years, and soaring local and global food and fuel prices have made the situation EDUCATION worse. The ongoing conflict and insecurity in Somalia in particular is exacerbating the problem and driving Early Years Foundation Stage over 10,000 people a week to flee into neighbouring Kenya, Ethiopia, Somalia and Kenya are the worst hit. The Minister of State, Department for Education In the long term, people in the horn of Africa desperately (Sarah Teather): The importance of the foundation need food security. The UK is a world leader in supporting years—as a foundation for life and for future attainment countries to become more resilient to drought and and success—cannot be over estimated. Children’s personal, famine, and has been working in the region for many social and emotional development, physical development years. Thanks to UK support, 7.8 million people in and communication and language are of paramount Ethiopia have access to cash and food in exchange for importance. Without a strong start in these three prime work through the productive safety net programme. areas, children will struggle as they develop in life, with DFID funding is also helping create 60,000 new jobs friends and in school. It is vital we have the right that are not dependant on rain-fed agriculture. A further framework to support high-quality early years education 60,000 people are assisted through a “safety net”programme and development. for the poorest households in Kenya. The early years foundation stage sets the standards These programmes that build long-term resilience are for the whole of the diverse early years sector, from having an impact. In 1992, 71% of the population of birth to five. Reform of the EYFS is one important Ethiopia were chronically malnourished (out of 53 million). element of our wider approach to supporting families Today, only 46% of a total population of 80 million are 99WS Written Ministerial Statements6 JULY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 100WS malnourished, so tens of millions more Ethiopians are on the inquiry’s website at www.detaineeinquiry.org.uk, able to feed themselves throughout the year. Those along with some frequently asked questions and answers benefiting from UK-supported programmes have proved about the inquiry and its preparatory phase to date. less vulnerable to the current drought. But long-term As the Prime Minister said in announcing the detainee resilience takes many years to build up, and emergency inquiry on 6 July 2010, the purpose of this inquiry is to relief is needed now to respond to the crisis before our examine whether, and if so to what extent, the UK eyes, and to make sure that the significant development Government and their intelligence agencies were involved gains of recent years are not eroded. in improper treatment, or rendition, of detainees held On 3 July the UK Government announced significant by other countries in counter-terrorism operations overseas, funding for the World Food Programme to help feed or were aware of improper treatment, or rendition, of 1.3 million Ethiopians for three months and to help detainees held by other countries in counter-terrorism 329,000 malnourished children and pregnant women. operations in which the UK was involved. The primary Our commitment will allow the WFP to access food focus is the aftermath of the attacks of 11 September from the Government of Ethiopia’s emergency food 2001 and particularly cases involving the detention at reserve now, while also starting procurement to replenish Guantanamo Bay of UK nationals and former lawful the reserve in time to meet shortfalls expected during UK residents. the peak period of need (September to November). The inquiry will also consider the evolution of the The UK has also provided strong support for Kenya Government’s response to developing knowledge of the and for Somalia in the last financial year, funding changing practices of other countries towards detainees emergency nutrition, health, water and sanitation and in counter-terrorism operations in this period. This will livelihood support activities through UN agencies. Red include how the response was implemented in Departments Cross and non-governmental organisations. We are rapidly and the security and intelligence agencies. The Prime looking at what additional support the UK should give Minister has asked the inquiry to report to him within in Somalia and Kenya. one year of commencing. The inquiry will identify any But other countries must also do more. We are vigorously lessons to be learned and make recommendations for pressing the rest of the international community and the future, to which the Government have undertaken Governments in the region to join us in stepping up to publish a formal response. and taking action to prevent this disaster becoming a catastrophe. Intervening now is more cost-effective than The Government hope that the inquiry will be able waiting for the situation to get worse. I am in close to start as soon as it is possible to do so. However, as touch with Baroness Amos, UN Under-Secretary General the Prime Minister made clear in his public letter of for Humanitarian Affairs, who I met on Tuesday 5 July 6 July 2010 to the right hon. Sir Peter Gibson, the to discuss how to galvanise a bigger and more effective inquiry chair, this depends on the end of related criminal response. processes, the timing of which is a matter for the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. The Government are grateful to the inquiry for the JUSTICE important preparatory work it has done to date and which it will continue to do. The inquiry is a vital part of the set of measures announced by the Prime Minister Detainee Inquiry that aim to draw a firm line under the serious questions that have been raised about the United Kingdom’s actions. We want to understand properly what happened The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice and to learn any necessary lessons. We look forward to (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Government and the detainee the detainee inquiry being able to get under way formally inquiry have agreed the terms of reference and protocol in due course and will make a further statement to the for the inquiry’s work, which are being published today House when in a position to do so.

9P Petitions6 JULY 2011 Petitions 10P

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Petition Commons urges the Secretary of State for Health to use his offices to intervene in the matter to require the PCT Wednesday 6 July 2011 to revisit its decision in regards to the U.C.C., and keep OBSERVATIONS GP-led services operating at the site. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by HEALTH Mr Charles Walker, Official Report, 20 June 2011; Cheshunt Urgent Care Centre (Hertfordshire) Vol. 530, c. 134.] The Petition of residents of Broxbourne Borough and [P000930] surrounding areas, Observations from the Secretary of State for Health: Declares that the decision taken by Hertfordshire Primary Care Trust to close Cheshunt Urgent Care The matters raised in the petition are local matters Centre (U.C.C.) fails to recognise the importance and and my Department will bring it to the attention of value of the U.C.C. to the local community. East of England Strategic Health Authority.

1213W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1214W

Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me Written Answers to that the Northern Ireland Office identified that a budget of £2.5 million was likely to be required by the Electoral Questions Office for Northern Ireland to conduct the referendum on the parliamentary voting system. The Electoral Office for Northern Ireland will submit a claim to the Electoral Wednesday 6 July 2011 Commission for its actual costs by 5 January 2012. In addition to the expenditure by the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland, public awareness expenditure by ATTORNEY-GENERAL the Electoral Commission on Northern Ireland specific campaigns was £200,000. Departmental Billing Oliver Heald: To ask the Attorney-General what proportion of invoices from small and medium-sized JUSTICE businesses were paid by the Law Officers’ Departments Archway Tower within five working days of receipt in the last 12 months for which figures are available. [63569] Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) what the length is of his Department’s lease The Solicitor-General: The Law Officers’ Departments on Archway Tower, N19, in respect of (a) the Office of do not currently record or publish information about the Public Guardian and (b) the Children and Family the size of suppliers as this does not fully reflect the Court Advisory and Support Service; and at what annual number and size of businesses engaged in the supply cost; [63865] chain for goods and services. They also do not discriminate (2) what plans he has for the future use of Archway by size of business because many small and medium Tower, N19. [63866] enterprises can be found within larger supply chains. The following table shows the proportion of invoices, Mr Kenneth Clarke: The leases for both the Office of from businesses of all sizes, paid by Crown Prosecution the Public Guardian (OPG) and the Children and Families Service (CPS) and the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) Advisory and Support Service (CAFCASS) are due to within five working days of receipt in the last 12 months expire on 24 March 2015. The annual cost for the rent for which information is available: and rates for each of the leases are as follows: (1) OPG: £968,000 Percentage of invoices paid in five days CPS SFO (2) CAFCASS: £148,000 The Ministry of Justice intends to vacate Archway June 2010 26 29 Tower by the lease break date of 24 March 2012 as part July 2010 23 10 of the work to rationalise its administrative estate. August 2010 32 22 Departmental Translation Services September 2010 43 11 October 2010 38 16 Mr Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice November 2010 35 11 what estimate he has made of the cost to (a) the court December 2010 31 12 service and (b) his Department of the translation of January 2011 28 9 information from English into other languages in each February 2011 29 5 of the last three financial years. [63831] March 2011 35 27 April 2011 16 n/a Mr Djanogly: The cost of translation of information May 2011 23 n/a from English into other languages in the financial years 2008-09 and 2009-10 is shown in the following table. The Treasury Solicitor’s Department (TSol) target is The information for 2010-11 will be available after the to pay undisputed invoices within 30 days from receipt departmental annual resource accounts have been and the Department does not hold any data on the completed and audited. numbers which were paid within five working days and could obtain such information only at a disproportionate £000 cost. Records show that around 87% of all invoices were 2008-09 2009-10 paid within 30 days in the last 12 months. Ministry of Justice 388 265 TSol is also responsible for processing invoices for the Attorney-General’s Office and HM Crown Prosecution HM Courts Service 139 137 Service Inspectorate and figures for both organisations Tribunals Service 53 49 are included in the TSol records. Office of the Public 25 25 Guardian1 National Offender 966 1,580 Management Service2 ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE 1 Figures for the Office of Public Guardian are an estimate of the Alternative Vote: Referendums translation component within a wider category of expenditure. 2 This figure includes translation costs as well as interpretation costs. Mr Dodds: To ask the hon. Member for South West The amounts are not separately recorded and can be disaggregated Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the only at disproportionate cost. Additionally, the NOMS figure excludes expenditure by the National Probation Service which is Electoral Commission, what the cost to the public held locally by 42 probation boards and trusts who use separate and purse was of holding the referendum on the alternative different accounting systems. Information could be determined only vote in Northern Ireland. [63629] at disproportionate cost through examination of local records. 1215W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1216W

Prisoners’ Release Damian Green: Since May 2010 the Home Office and its Executive agencies have awarded one contract to Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Capita Resourcing Ltd to provide interim personnel. how many people were given new identities on release The value of this contract was £45,358 and this amount from prison in each of the last 10 years. [63823] has now been spent. Mr Blunt: There are a number of ways in which offenders may adopt or acquire a new identity on release from prison, Counter-terrorism: Finance ranging from the use of a pseudonym, to a change of name by deed poll to a full national identity change. Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for the Information on the number of offenders who have Home Department what evaluation her Department been given a full national identity change on release has carried out on the work of organisations supported from prison is not held centrally. To provide such by Prevent Strategy funding between June 2007 and information may put certain individuals at risk and June 2009. [59743] would likely incur disproportionate cost. Individuals who have been given a full national identity James Brokenshire: The Office for Security and Counter change are managed by the local police force for the Terrorism (OSCT) commissioned two evaluations of area in which they reside. There is no distinction between Prevent funded initiatives in 2008. One was of the those subject to national identity change on release processes and procedures of community intervention from prison or those who are subject to it for other projects. This covered financial and business management, reasons. governance, methodology and activities. It was not an A national identity change is given to some high risk evaluation of the impact or the effectiveness of interventions individuals who are assessed as requiring management in preventing radicalisation but the results were used to as ’protected persons’. Most of such individuals have inform decision making about the continuation of funding assisted in the prosecution of others. to projects. The second was a process evaluation of Channel, undertaken on behalf of OSCT by the Royal Where offenders adopt a pseudonym or change their United Services Institute (RUSI) The results of this name by deed poll or are given a national identity evaluation contributed to the national Channel guidance change, they continue to be managed as offenders and published in March 2010. For reasons of confidentiality are required to comply with their licence conditions and these evaluations have not been published. other instructions given by their supervising officer. Young Offenders Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the name is of each organisation Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice previously provided with funding under the Prevent how many persons aged between 18 and 21 years when Strategy which will receive no further funding on the convicted for (a) murder or (b) manslaughter and grounds that it espouses extremist views. [59744] subsequently released on licence were recalled to custody following (i) a further offence and (ii) a breach of the James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not intend licence in each of the last 10 years. [62160] to name organisations that will no longer receive further funding because to do so could breach confidentiality. Mr Blunt: There were 19 offenders aged between 18 If organisations do not support the values of democracy, and 21 years when convicted for murder and subsequently human rights, equality before the law and participation released on licence who were recalled to custody following in society, then we will not fund them. a breach of licence conditions in 2010. Of these, four had committed a further offence. During 2010, no offenders aged between 18 and Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for the 21 years old at conviction were recalled to custody while Home Department what projects were undertaken by on licence for manslaughter. organisations provided with funding under the Prevent Strategy between June 2007 and June 2009. [59745] Detailed data on recalls before 2010 are not held centrally in an electronic format. A manual trawl of prisoner files would be required to obtain this data; this James Brokenshire: During this period funding was would incur disproportionate cost. provided under the Prevent strategy to public sector and community organisations for a wide range of projects. These figures have been drawn from administrative These included awareness raising, training courses, the IT systems which, as with any large scale recording Channel scheme and interventions for individuals vulnerable system, are subject to possible errors with data entry to radicalisation. and processing. Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the name is of each organisation HOME DEPARTMENT provided with funding under the Prevent Strategy between Capita June 2007 and June 2009; where each such organisation was located; and how much each such organisation Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for the received and for what period. [59746] Home Department how many contracts her Department has awarded to Capita since May 2010; and what the James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not intend (a) monetary value and (b) net worth was of each to name or identify the location of each organisation contract. [62722] funded under the Prevent strategy because to do so 1217W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1218W would breach confidentiality. Home Office total funding the sale of new psychoactive substances. Discussions (including funding to the police) was £47 million in have been held and information shared at working level 2009-10 and £37 million in 2010-11. meetings of the British Irish Council and at the Horizontal Drugs Group in Brussels. Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department by what process the views and Hunting Act 2004 values of organisations will be assessed in determining allocation of Prevent Strategy funding. [59753] Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for the James Brokenshire: The Secretary of State for the Home Department how many (a) prosecutions, (b) Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member fines and (c) cautions there were for breaches of the for Maidenhead (Mrs May), has written to local authorities, Hunting Act 2004 in each police force area in 2010. police services and other delivery partners to set out the [64032] principles they should apply so that Prevent funds do not go to extremist organisations. The detailed procedures Mr Blunt: I have been asked to reply. to assess organisations are still being developed and will The number of offenders cautioned, and the number be provided to partners once finalised. of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts, found guilty, sentenced and fined at all courts, by police Deportation: Offenders force area in England and Wales, 2010, for offences under the Hunting Act 2004 can be viewed in the table. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Offenders cautioned, and defendants proceeded against at magistrates Home Department with which countries the UK has an courts, found guilty and fined at all courts, under the Hunting Act agreement to automatically deport foreign prisoners to 2004, by police force area1, England and Wales, 20102, 3 their country of origin once they have been released Of from custody. [63847] Proceeded Found which: Force Cautioned against guilty Sentenced Fined Damian Green: The UK does not have any agreements Avon and —1111 with any countries to automatically deport foreign prisoners Somerset from the UK at the end of their custodial sentence. Cheshire — 1 — — — Individuals are considered on a case by case basis. Cleveland 3 2 — — — There are no countries to which the Government Cumbria —1111 have a blanket approach of not returning foreign national Essex — 3 — — — prisoners. Hertfordshire —1111 The UK Border Agency seeks to deport from the UK Humberside —8888 foreign national offenders who meet the following criteria: Kent—5555 A court recommendation. Lancashire 32222 For non-European Economic Area nationals—a custodial sentence Merseyside —1111 of 12 months or more either in one sentence, or as an aggregate North 1149 9 9 of two or three sentences over a period of five years or a Yorkshire custodial sentence of any length for a drug offence (an offence Nottinghamshire —2221 other than possession only). South —111— For EEA nationals—a custodial sentence of 12 months or Yorkshire more for an offence involving drugs, violent or sexual crimes or Surrey2211— a custodial sentence of 24 months or more for other offences. Thames 1———— Domestic Violence Valley West —3333 Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Yorkshire the Home Department how many police forces provide Wiltshire —2111 portable alarms to domestic abuse victims; and what North 1———— Wales the cost of such provision was in the last 12 months. Total 11 49 36 36 33 [63777] England and Wales Nick Herbert: The provision of portable alarms is a 1 Only those police force areas are shown in the table where data are decision for each police force. We do not collect this given. information centrally. 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they Drugs were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for the offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory Home Department what recent assessment she has made maximum penalty is the most severe. of the level of cooperation between the Government 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and the government of the Irish Republic in tackling and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have web drug sales. [63403] been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are James Brokenshire: Officials from the Drugs and taken into account when those data are used. Alcohol Unit liaise with colleagues from the Irish Republic Source: on the issue of web drug sales, particularly regarding Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. 1219W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1220W

Identity and Passport Office: Liverpool subsequently removed. This does not mean they were necessarily encountered in the constituency.The information Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for the is as follows: Home Department how many Liverpool Passport Office staff recruited under the Friends and Family Scheme Subsequently Served IS151A removed were recruited after March 2009. [64153] 2006 13 4 Damian Green: All 14 of the staff recruited under the 2007 50 13 Liverpool Friends and Family scheme from 2008 were 2008 50 6 appointed between 30 March 2009 and 22 March 2010. 2009 49 11 2010 39 8 Identity and Passport Office: Newport (Gwent) 20111 14 0 Total 215 42 Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for the 1 Data for 2011 covers 1 January to 30 June 2011. Home Department whether the remaining posts at Newport Note: All figures quoted are internal management information only and are Passport Office are open to applications from all staff subject to change. This information has not been quality assured based in Newport. [64071] under National Statistics protocols.

Damian Green [holding answer 5 July 2011]: The Members: Correspondence majority of staff currently employed at the Newport Passport Office will be able to apply for the remaining Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for posts. A small number of staff based in Newport work the Home Department when the Minister of State for for the Identity and Passport Service HQ team. They Immigration plans to reply to the letter of 18 May 2011 are not eligible for the new posts as their current roles from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton are not at risk. with regard to MrTSZivane. [63994]

Illegal Immigrants Damian Green: I wrote to the right hon. Member on 5 July 2011. Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many illegal immigrants have National Policing Improvement Agency been (a) found and (b) deported from a residence in (i) Worcestershire and (ii) Redditch in the last five Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the years. [63238] Home Department what assessment she has made of the capacity of the Association of Chief Police Officers Damian Green: The UK Border Agency arrested to assume the functions of the National Police Improvement three individuals over the last five financial years, for all Agency. [63774] immigration offences, on enforcement visits to addresses identified as residential, located in Redditch and, separately, Nick Herbert: There are no proposals to transfer any in Worcestershire outside Redditch. Of those one individual of the National Police Improvement Agency’s functions was removed from the UK after being resident in the to the Association of Chief Police Officers. same location. Please note all data are sourced from management Offenders: Foreign Nationals information tools and are not quality assured under National Statistics protocols. Figures provided do not Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the constitute part of National Statistics and should be Home Department pursuant to the answer of 28 June treated as provisional. 2011, Official Report, columns 685-86W, on offenders: foreign nationals, how many people are on the watch Illegal Immigrants: Bexley list; and what the country of origin is of each such person. [63849] Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many illegal immigrants resident Damian Green: The UK holds a watchlist of adverse at addresses in Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency information and intelligence drawn from a variety of were (a) identified and (b) deported in the last five sources, including the police. The system is used by UK years. [63886] Border Agency staff for the purposes of national security and the detection and prevention of crime. It is long- Damian Green: The data requested are not available standing policy not to discuss either the specific data as part of UK Border Agency’s standard reports. held on the watchlist or the source of the data as to do Information on illegal immigrants encountered and so would be counterproductive. removals is recorded on two separate databases. To obtain the requested information would require data Organised Crime matching between these two systems which would exceed the cost threshold. Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for the We are however able to identify those cases encountered Home Department how many crime alerts were issued (i.e. served papers) with a last known address in the by the Serious Organised Crime Agency in each year Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency, who were since 2006. [63723] 1221W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1222W

Nick Herbert: The number of alerts issued by the WORK AND PENSIONS Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) for each year was as follows: Advertising

Number Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2010-11 114 and Pensions how much his Department has spent on 2009-10 76 placing advertisements in newspapers in England in 2008-09 71 each year since 2005. [63392] 2007-08 46 2006-07 24 Chris Grayling: Information is not collated centrally and can be provided only at a disproportionate cost. SOCA publishes information on the number of alerts issued each year in the SOCA annual report and accounts, Child Care Tax Credit available at: www.soca.gov.uk Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Organised Crime: Exclusion Orders Pensions how many households would receive (a) increased and (b) reduced childcare support after the Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for the full implementation of universal credit if estimated Home Department how many people were excluded increases in take-up are removed from the calculations. following a recommendation by the Serious Organised [63811] Crime Agency in each year since 2006. [63720] Maria Miller: The details of the child care element in Nick Herbert: A breakdown of individuals excluded universal credit are not yet finalised. The impacts of from the UK since 2006 following a recommendation the proposed child care policy will be set out in future by the Serious Organised Crime Agency is as follows: iterations of the universal credit impact assessment.

Number Children: Maintenance 2006 0 2007 3 Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 10 Work and Pensions how many child support cases there 2009 11 are in (a) Wales and (b) Newport East constituency; and how many such cases involve (i) a parent with care 2010 4 and (ii) a non-resident parent. [64030] 2011 0 Prisoners: Foreign Nationals Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child maintenance Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for the system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner Home Department what estimate she has made of the to write to the hon. Member with the information number of foreign national prisoners who did not have requested and I have seen the response. leave to remain in the UK prior to their imprisonment. Letter from Noel Shanahan: [64038] In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, the Secretary Damian Green: In order to answer this question the of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance UK Border Agency would need to cross reference individual Commissioner. records with the National Offender Management Service. You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how This would incur a disproportionate cost. many child support cases there are in (a) Wales and (b) Newport East constituency; and how many such cases involve (i) a parent Raed Salah with care and (ii) a non-resident parent. [64030] The number of live and assessed cases in the quarter ending Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for the March 2011 where the parent with care lives in Wales is 71,110. Home Department what assessment she has made of The number of live and assessed cases in the same period where the circumstances in which Raed Salah entered the UK; the parent with care lives in Newport East parliamentary constituency is 1,950. and if she will make a statement. [63261] For a case to be classed as live and assessed they must involve Damian Green [holding answer 4 July 2011]: Raed both a non-resident parent and a parent with care. Salah was excluded from the United Kingdom on 23 June. I hope you find this answer helpful. He entered the United Kingdom on 25 June when he should have been stopped and refused entry. Salah was Community Care Grants arrested on 28 June by UK Border Agency officers and is being detained while we seek to deport him. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my for Work and Pensions if he will assess the effects of his right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), Department’s proposals for the localisation of community has ordered an urgent review of procedures to ascertain care grants and crisis loans on (a) distribution of how he was allowed to enter the country and to learn funding, (b) administrative costs and (c) the standard the lessons from this situation and seek to ensure it of decision-making processes; and if he will make a cannot happen again. statement. [63485] 1223W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1224W

Steve Webb: We are not localising community care £ grants and crisis loans, we are replacing them with new local welfare assistance delivered by local authorities in 2005-06 390,700 England and the devolved administrations in Scotland 2006-07 407,800 and Wales. The new provision will be better targeted 2007-08 415,900 and offer better value for money. 2008-09 428,800 The programme funding for the new local welfare 2009-10 506,726 assistance will be the same as the Department for Work and Pensions allocation at the point responsibility is Details of the DWP costs for 2010-11 are being transferred. compiled and due for release in July 2011. The White Paper published in December 2010— Information prior to 2005 is not available and would “Universal Credit: welfare that works”—made clear be obtained only at disproportionate cost. that any new burdens would be funded. Information relating to individual DWP ministerial The delivery of local assistance will mean that any car journeys prior to September 2010 is not available as decisions made at a local level are the most appropriate there was no requirement to collect this data. ones for that area. Information relating to the number of DWP ministerial These issues, and more, are covered in the Government’s car journeys made since the introduction of the ’on-demand’ response to its call for evidence, “Local support to Ministerial Car Service on 6 September 2010 and up replace Community Care Grants and Crisis Loans for until 31 March 2011 is 293. living expenses” published on 23 June. It is available in The Ministerial Code, published on 21 May 2010, the Library and can be accessed on the Department for included changes to the circumstances in which Ministers Work and Pensions website: would be entitled to a car and driver. The number of www.dwp.gov.uk/consultations/2011/local-support-replace- Ministers with allocated cars and drivers would be kept ccg-cl.shtml to a minimum, taking into account security and other considerations. Other Ministers would be entitled to use cars from a Ministerial Car Pool as required. Departmental Manpower All Ministers are encouraged to walk or use public transport wherever practicable. Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will make it his policy to Housing Benefit publish monthly information on changes in the numbers of employees of his Department’s agencies, categorised Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for by (a) seniority, (b) voluntary redundancy, (c) natural Work and Pensions how many young people in (a) wastage and (d) involuntary redundancy. [61716] London, (b) Birmingham, (c) Leeds, (d) Manchester and (e) Liverpool claimed shared room rent housing Chris Grayling: The Government are committed to benefit in 2010-11; and what estimate he has made of transparency and the availability of data and is currently the equivalent numbers following the introduction of exploring options for the more frequent publication of the 35 years old age threshold. [63334] this type of workforce management information across the civil service. Steve Webb: The information requested is not available Workforce Management information for the Department for 2010-11. for Work and Pensions and its agencies will continue to The following table presents estimates of the number be published via the Annual Civil Service Employment of local housing allowance cases assessed at the shared survey, pending the outcome of the review. accommodation rate in March 2010, together with estimates of the numbers of claimants who would be affected by the extension of the age threshold for the shared Departmental Official Cars accommodation rate. Only those who are single and aged under 25 are Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for classed as a young person under the current regulations, Work and Pensions what the cost to his Department but couples and claimants aged over 25 who live in and its predecessors was of the provision of ministerial shared accommodation are also assessed at the lower cars in each financial year between 2000-01 and rate. 2010-11; how many (a) cars for the exclusive use of Only single claimants aged 25 to 34 and currently Ministers and (b) ministerial car journeys were paid renting self-contained accommodation will be affected for by his Department in each such year; what the by the extension of the age threshold. average cost to his Department of a ministerial car journey was in each such year; and what steps his Claimants Department has taken to reduce the cost of ministerial aged 25 to 34 affected by cars since his appointment. [62991] Claimants Claimants extension of assessed at aged over 25 the age Chris Grayling: Information on the cost and number shared but assessed at threshold for of ministerial cars for DWP is published in the annual accommodation the shared the shared written ministerial statement, details of which can be rate aged accommodation accommodation Area under 25 rate rate found within the Libraries of both Houses. The following details the spend for this Department: London 7,430 21,980 11,780 1225W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1226W

Maternity Pay Claimants aged 25 to 34 affected by Claimants Claimants extension of Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State assessed at aged over 25 the age for Work and Pensions if his Department will bring shared but assessed at threshold for accommodation the shared the shared forward amendments to the guidance on statutory rate aged accommodation accommodation maternity pay and stillbirths to align it with the legal Area under 25 rate rate definition of stillbirth of 24 completed weeks of pregnancy. [63918] Birmingham 1,360 2,310 1,410 Leeds 1,500 1,680 1,270 Manchester 910 1,040 1,000 Maria Miller: The current guidance on statutory Liverpool 900 910 1,450 maternity pay and stillbirths is fully aligned to the legal Source: definition of stillbirth. The DWP and Directgov website Equality impact assessment of the increase to the shared accommodation state that: rate age threshold, available on the DWP website at http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/eia-hb-shared-accommodation-age- “If your baby is stillborn after the start of the 25th week of threshold.pdf your pregnancy you are entitled to the same Maternity Allowance or Statutory Maternity Pay you would have received if your child was born alive”. Jobcentre Plus: Manpower This applies to births occurring in the 25th week of a pregnancy or later, or to put it another way after 24 full Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and weeks of pregnancy have been completed. Pensions (1) how many staff were appointed on permanent contracts by Jobcentre Plus in each of the last four years; [63527] Poverty: Children (2) how many staff appointed on permanent contracts by Jobcentre Plus were (a) upgraded from fixed-term contracts, (b) transferred from other positions in his Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Department and (c) transferred from outside his and Pensions how many children were living in poverty Department under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection in a household which included a couple in (a) each of Employment) Regulations 2006 in each of the last year since 1997 and (b) each of the last four quarters four years. [63528] for which figures are available. [63716]

Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus Maria Miller: Estimates of the number and proportion is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, of children living in poverty are published in the Households Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. Below Average Income (HBAI) series. HBAI uses Member with the information requested. household (rather than family) income adjusted (or Letter from Darra Singh: ‘equivalised’) for household size and composition, to provide a proxy for standard of living. The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your questions asking how many staff were appointed on permanent contracts The following table shows the number and proportion by Jobcentre Plus in each of the last four years; how many staff of children living in couple families in households with appointed on permanent contracts by Jobcentre Plus were (a) income below 60% of contemporary median income upgraded from fixed-term contracts (b) transferred from other before housing costs (BHC). Data are provided for each positions in his Department and (c) transferred from outside his Department under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of year between 1997-98 and 2009-10. This information is Employment) Regulations in each of the last four years. These are not available on a quarterly basis. issues that fall within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief Table: Numbers and proportions of children in couple families in Executive of Jobcentre Plus. households with equivalised incomes below 60% of contemporary In response to the first question, the information in the following median income before housing costs (BHC) table showing staff externally appointed on permanent contracts Number (million) Proportion (%) in each of the last four years is set out on a staff in post basis i.e. employees are counted as a single unit irrespective of the hours 1997-98 2.0 21 they work. The data covers the period April to March in each of 1998-99 2.0 20 the last four years and is the latest information available. 1999-2000 1.8 19 2000-01 1.7 17 Permanent recruitment 2001-02 1.7 17 2010-11 7 2002-03 1.7 17 2009-10 2,602 2003-04 1.7 17 2008-09 5,104 2004-05 1.6 16 2007-08 2,612 2005-06 1.7 18 The data being reported is drawn from an internal Departmental 2006-07 1.7 18 system used to record and monitor staffing details. 2007-08 1.8 18 We are unable to provide the information requested in the second question in relation to each of the three points you are 2008-09 1.7 18 raising without disproportionate cost. 2009-10 1.7 17 1227W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1228W

Notes: projections for people reaching 65 have been revised 1. These statistics are based on households below average income upwards by a year and a half. (HBAI) data available at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk-asd-index.php?paqe=hbai_arc It has not been possible to give a notice period similar 2. Data are sourced from the Family Resources survey and covers to those given for previous increases in state pension Great Britain up to 1997-98 and the United Kingdom from 1998-99, age. Under the new timetable in the Pensions Bill, the with estimates for Northern Ireland imputed for the years 1998-99 increase from 63 to 65 in women’s state pension age will through 2001-02. The reference period for FRS figures is single financial years. not start until April 2016 and no one will have a state 3. Disposable household income is adjusted using modified OECD pension age of 66 until 2020. equivalisation factors for household size and composition, as an If we were to give at least 15 years’ notice as income measure as a proxy for standard of living. 4. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to recommended by the Pensions Commission in their uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these second report, “ANew Pension Settlement for the Twenty- will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. First Century”, this would mean not changing the state 5. Numbers of people in low-income households have been rounded pension age until 2025. to the nearest 100,000, while proportions have been rounded to the nearest percentage point. 6. Figures have been presented on a before housing cost (BHC) basis. Unemployment Benefits For BHC figures, housing costs (such as rent, water rates, mortgage interest payments, buildings insurance payments and ground rent and service charges) are not deducted from income. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 7. The household level poverty threshold is defined as the 60% of and Pensions how many and what proportion of people contemporary median equivalised disposable household income. claiming out-of-work benefit lost their entitlement in each local authority area in each of the last 18 months. Social Security Benefits [61662]

Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus Work and Pensions how many employment-related is a matter for the chief executive, Darra Singh. I have benefit claimants and job seekers live more than asked him to provide the hon. Member with the information 10 miles from their nearest Jobcentre Plus. [63311] requested. Letter from Darra Singh: Chris Grayling: The information requested is not The Secretary of State for Work and for Pensions has asked me available and could be provided only at disproportionate to reply to your question regarding how many and what proportion cost. of people claiming out-of-work benefit lost their entitlement in each local authority area in each of the last 18 months. This is Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as and Pensions what assessment he has made of the Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. potential effects of regulation 3 of the Social Security The information on the numbers and proportions of people Benefits Up-rating Regulations 2011 on the level of who have lost their entitlement to Jobseekers Allowance (JSA) for state pension of retired people resident overseas; and each local authority covering the period from August 2009 to what consideration he has given to reviewing that regulation. January 2011 is available. This has been placed in the Library. [64202] The source of the JSA information is DWP Information Directorate: Sanctions and Disallowance Decisions Statistics Database. Figures are published at: Steve Webb: The UK State Pension is payable world-wide but is only up-rated abroad where there is a legal http://83.244.183.180/sanction/sanction/LIVE/tabtool.html requirement or reciprocal agreement to do so. A well The Tabulation Tool and instructions on how to use it can be known court case challenging the UK’s position was found on the Departmental website here: heard by the European Court of Human Rights’ Grand http://83.244.183.180/100pc/tabtool.html Chamber in September 2009 and the court’s judgment I also provide data below for the numbers and proportions of of March 2010 was in the UK’s favour. We continue to people claiming Employment Support Allowance (ESA) who take our obligations under the terms of the European have been found fit for work. The latest data available covers the Convention on Human Rights seriously and are satisfied period from October 2008 to August 2010.1 am only able to provide this data at a national level due to the disproportionate that we are complying. We therefore have no plans to cost of obtaining the data for each local authority. make any changes to the current arrangements that allow for the exportability and up-rating of UK State Fit for work Pensions. Month of claim start Number Percentage State Retirement Pensions: Females October 2008 3,600 39 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for November 2008 17,500 39 Work and Pensions for what reason he has not accepted December 2008 15,200 38 the recommendations contained in the Turner Report January 2009 21,000 39 on Pensions for a 10 year notice period for women February 2009 19,800 40 retiring at 66 years from 2018; and if he will make a March 2009 23,500 41 statement. [62687] April 2009 21,800 42 May-2009 22,000 42 Steve Webb: We need to act quickly to reduce the June 2009 22,800 40 increasing costs imposed on the state pension system by July 2009 22,900 40 the increases in longevity. Since the 2004 based projections August 2009 20,500 40 which the Pensions Commission used life expectancy September 2009 22,000 40 1229W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1230W

fully reflect the number and size of businesses engaged Fit for work in supplying goods and services. We do not discriminate Month of claim by size of business because many small and medium-sized start Number Percentage enterprises can be found within larger supply chains. October 2009 21,500 40 The following table sets out the Department’s overall November 2009 20,800 40 performance against the five working day target during December 2009 17,000 38 the last 12 months: January 2010 22,200 39 February 2010 21,600 40 Number of March 2010 23,500 39 invoices Number of paid on invoices April 2010 20,900 38 time paid late May-2010 19,800 38 (within Percentage (after five June 2010 20,500 36 five days paid on days of Percentage July 2010 20,100 35 of receipt) time receipt) paid late August 2010 17,700 33 June 2010 2,985 80.03 596 19.97 Total 458,500 39 July 2010 2,795 79.25 580 20.75 Note: August 2,479 79.43 510 20.57 Totals may not sum due to rounding method used. 2010 The source of the ESA table is Table 1 of the publication “Employment And Support Allowance: Work Capability Assessment September 2,420 83.55 398 16.45 by Health Condition and Functional Impairment: Official Statistics”, 2010 and presents initial assessment results for claims to August 2010. October 2,676 83.18 450 16.82 2010 I hope this is helpful. November 2,513 81.93 454 18.07 2010 December 2,030 82.12 363 17.88 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT 2010 January 2,097 81.12 396 18.88 Council Tax: Exemptions 2011 February 1,992 79.07 417 20.93 George Eustice: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 Communities and Local Government if he will assess March 2,335 75.89 563 24.11 the merits of extending the maximum period for council 2011 tax exemptions for properties that are uninhabitable April 2011 1,751 79.10 366 20.90 May 2011 1,411 84.05 225 15.95 due to ongoing renovation. [63885]

Robert Neill: The Government have no plans to extend It should be noted that the new five-day target is the council tax statutory exemption period for properties more demanding than the previous 10-day target. We that are uninhabitable due to ongoing renovation. are taking steps to improve our performance on meeting Local authorities already have powers to give local these new targets. council tax discounts. Departmental Allowances Departmental Procurement

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what expenses Communities and Local Government what progress his were claimed by (a) paid and (b) unpaid special advisers Department has made in encouraging small businesses working in his Department in the last 12 months. to bid for Government contracts. [60188] [62079]

Robert Neill: From May 2010 to May 2011, special Robert Neill: The Department has an action plan to advisers claimed £509.88 in expenses. This compares help open up departmental contracts to small and medium with £1,953 in 2007-08, £4,407 in 2008-09 and £1,328 in sized enterprises. This has been published on our website: 2009-10 claimed by special advisers under the last http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/jobscontracts/ Administration. DCLG has no unpaid special advisers. procurement/smallmediumenterprises/ Although referring to organisations as small and Departmental Billing medium enterprises, the scope of the packages announced includes voluntary/community organisations and social Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for enterprises within its remit. Communities and Local Government what proportion of invoices from small and medium-sized businesses Please note that 26% of the Department’s contracts were paid by his Department within five working days were with small and medium sized enterprises in 2010-11. of receipt of invoice in the last 12 months for which information is available. [63567] Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what provisions Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and in respect of behavioural standards have been included Local Government does not currently record and publish in procurement contracts issued by his Department information about the size of suppliers as this does not since May 2010. [61682] 1231W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1232W

Robert Neill: The Department’s Standard Terms and Greg Clark: The coalition agreement explicitly states Conditions of Contract contain clauses requiring adherence that we will maintain green belt protection. The green to specific legislative standards such as Equality, belt has a valuable role in stopping urban sprawl and Environmental and Health and Safety. Each individual providing a green lung around towns and cities. contract may set out further behavioural standards Indeed, our proposed abolition of the unpopular dependent upon the nature of the requirement (e.g. the regional strategies through the Localism Bill will stop departmental standard terms have separate optional the top-down pressure to remove the green belt in sections relating to the procurement of goods, services 30 areas across England. and consultancy). Empty Property Homes and Communities Agency: Procurement

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many empty Communities and Local Government what the (a) date dwellings there were in each local authority area in each of purchase, (b) amount, (c) supplier and (d) level 3 of the last five years; and what proportion of all dwellings or enhanced transaction entry was of each transaction this represented in each case. [64126] undertaken by the Homes and Communities Agency using the Government Procurement Card in (i) 2008-09 Robert Neill: I have today placed in the Library of the and (ii) 2009-10. [61804] House, a table showing the number of empty dwellings in each local authority area in England in each of the Andrew Stunell [holding answer 23 June 2011]: A last five years; and what proportion of all dwellings this table providing a breakdown of expenditure by the represented in each case. The data are as reported by Homes and Communities Agency using Government local authorities and are a snapshot taken in the autumn Procurement Cards for 2008-09 and 2009-10 has been each year. placed in the Library of the House. This includes (a) In this answer, empty dwellings includes both long-term date of purchase, (b) amount, and (c) supplier, (d) and short-term empty dwellings. level 3 or enhanced transaction details are not held centrally. Each transaction does have an expenditure Enterprise Zones type which is a broad description of the type of goods purchased. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State The data covers the periods 1 December 2008 (when for Communities and Local Government whether a the Homes and Communities Agency commenced business) Barnett consequential has been made to the devolved to 31 March 2009; and 1 April 2009 to 31 March 2010. administrations as a result of the policy to create enterprise zones. [60642] Housing: Water Supply Robert Neill: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, my right Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch Communities and Local Government if he will take and Strathspey (Danny Alexander) on 28 June 2011, steps to promote water efficiency in the building of new Official Report, column 689W. homes; and if he will make a statement. [63940]

Fire Services: Finance Andrew Stunell: Part G of the Building Regulations already sets water efficiency standards for new homes Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for which require that, on average, their water consumption Communities and Local Government if he will ensure is no more than 125 litres per person per day (average that his Department provides information to prospective national use is approximately 150 litres per person per new fire authorities on future grant funding, including day). The voluntary Code for Sustainable Homes promotes support on grant implications, to facilitate the creation higher water efficiency standards. Homes funded by the of merged fire authorities. [63973] Homes and Communities Agency are required to reach level three of the code which includes a water efficiency Robert Neill: We are currently undertaking the local requirement of 105 litres per person per day. government resource review and we do not know how decisions on that might affect distribution from 2013-14 Local Authorities: Older People onwards. Even if there was no change in the current system, we would expect to update data sets used in the formula, to use different control totals and for there to Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for be changes brought about from floor damping levels. Communities and Local Government what steps his These alone could create large variance in the figures. Department is taking to monitor (a) new and (b) We cannot therefore provide information to prospective changes in the level of charges for older people’s services new fire authorities on future grant funding. by local authorities. [62957]

Green Belt Robert Neill: Local authorities are democratically elected and, as such, they are independent from central Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Government and are responsible for their own finances. State for Communities and Local Government what It is for individual councils in consultation with their priority he gives to the preservation of green belt communities to decide on what services they provide for boundaries; and if he will make a statement. [64014] older people. 1233W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1234W

Notwithstanding, Ministers believe that councils should Local Government Finance: Voluntary Organisations not be looking to increasing charges simply to deliver essential frontline services, or as an alternative to cutting Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for out waste. Communities and Local Government what steps his Department is taking to monitor changes in the level of financial support by local authorities to the voluntary Local Enterprise Partnerships sector through (a) grants and (b) contracts. [62961]

Andrew Stunell: The Department is not formally Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for monitoring changes in the financial support by local Communities and Local Government (1) what steps he authorities to the voluntary and community sector. has taken to ensure that the Government’s guidance to local enterprise partnerships (LEPs) on equality in Local authorities are expected to publish all expenditure LEP board nominations is given consideration by over £500. The new Code of Recommended Practice for LEPs; [63951] local authorities on data transparency will set out minimum expectations of what data should be published. Spend (2) what mechanisms he has put in place to ensure data over £500, including payment to the voluntary and that the nominations process for local enterprise community sector, will be part of that minimum expectation. partnerships boards is open, fair and transparent; [63952] We want to encourage authorities and civil society to collaborate more, including greater involvement for (3) whether he is taking steps to ensure that local voluntary groups in the running of public services. In enterprise partnerships boards are representative of that context, we recently consulted on a single-page of their communities. [63953] new best value statutory guidance that set out reasonable expectations on how best value authorities should work Greg Clark: The Government expect that local areas with voluntary and community groups when facing are fair and transparent in developing their boards, and difficult funding decisions. Authorities have to have give due consideration to issues of representation, so as regard to this guidance and can be challenged to show to result in a well-balanced board which suits the needs that they have done so. The consultation closed on of the local area. 14 June and we will publish final guidance as early as The Government have asked that all local enterprise possible this summer. partnership provide formal confirmation of their board selection to Ministers. Scotland Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Government Finance Communities and Local Government what proportion of contracts issued by (a) his Department and (b) agencies for which he is responsible were awarded to Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for small and medium-sized enterprises in (i) Scotland, (ii) Communities and Local Government how much funding South Lanarkshire and (iii) Rutherglen and Hamilton has been allocated to each local authority through the West constituency in the latest period for which figures local services support grant in 2011-12. [62672] are available. [60203]

Robert Neill: Local Services Support Grant is Robert Neill: To answer this question in full would unhypothecated funding to local authorities, for them entail disproportionate cost as it would involve examining to use it to meet locally identified priorities. A table all purchases. However from our central record of contracts giving total allocations to each council for 2011-12 has greater than £20,000 we have identified one contract in been deposited in the Library of the House. Scotland with a small and medium sized company based near Glasgow. This was one percent, as a proportion of the total number of such contracts issued in the last Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for financial year. Communities and Local Government whether his Department uses resource equalisation as part of the As part of my Department’s transparency initiative, methodology to determine the allocation of local all spending to suppliers over £500 is published online; government grants. [63997] this information may also assist the hon. Member. Trade Unions Robert Neill: The distribution of formula grant takes into account the relative costs of providing services David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for between areas (largely based on its socio-economic and Communities and Local Government whether any staff demographic characteristics) together with its relative of his Department are entitled to work full-time on ability to raise funding locally (based on the number of trade union activities while receiving a departmental band-D council tax equivalent properties within an salary. [60253] authority’s area). We then guarantee that every authority will receive at least a minimum percentage change (the Robert Neill: The Department pays the salary and ‘floor’) in its formula grant year on year on a like for related costs (travel and subsistence etc.) for a number like basis. In order to pay for this we scale back changes of DCLG staff undertaking trade unions activities in above the floor for other authorities. this Department on a full and part-time basis. These are No other grants to local government take into account arrangements that the current Government have inherited an authority’s relative ability to raise funding locally. from the last Administration. 1235W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1236W

The Department does not specify the number of Departmental Official Cars full-time or part-time trade union representative roles within the organisation. Rather, it sets a maximum level Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for of facility time which is available for trade union activities Transport what the cost to his Department and its and a maximum number of full-time and part-time predecessors was of the provision of ministerial cars in roles which are permitted within that allocation. Currently, each financial year between 2000-01 and 2010-11; how the maximum departmental limit within the overall many (a) cars for the exclusive use of Ministers and (b) facility time allocation is for two full time roles and four ministerial car journeys were paid for by his Department part time roles. These are fully utilised. Against that in each such year; what the average cost to his Department backdrop, the position is set out in the following table. of a ministerial car journey was in each such year; and what steps his Department has taken to reduce the cost Department for Communities and of ministerial cars since his appointment. [62996] Local Government

Overall 2011-12 facility time 1,000 Mike Penning: Information on the cost and number allocation (days) of ministerial cars is published in the annual written Maximum permitted full time 2 ministerial statement, details of which can be found representatives within the Libraries of both Houses. Actual number of full time 2 2005-06: representatives http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/ Maximum permitted part-time 4 cmhansrd/cm070726/wmstext/70726m0004.htm representatives 2006-07: Actual number of part-time 4 representatives http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/ cmhansrd/cm070726/wmstext/70726m0004.htm Travellers: Caravan Sites 2007-08: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/ Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for cmhansrd/cm080722/wmstext/80722m0008.htm Communities and Local Government if he will make it 2008-09: his policy to (a) ensure regional cooperation between http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/ local authorities in planning for Gypsy and Traveller cmhansrd/cm090716/wmstext/90716m0009.htm caravan sites and (b) reinstate the obligation on local 2009-10: authorities to provide such sites. [62755] http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/ Robert Neill: We are introducing a duty to co-operate hammond20101028a through the Localism Bill to ensure that local authorities Details of the costs for 2010-11 are being compiled continue to work together after regional strategies are and are due for release in July 2011. abolished. This will require local planning authorities, county councils and other public bodies to engage East Coast Railway Line constructively, actively and on an ongoing basis in the planning process. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport The majority of new Traveller sites are small private when he has met representatives of East Coast Trains to ones provided by Travellers themselves. This meets discuss the transfer of the East Coast Trains call centre community aspirations on tenure and their small size from Newcastle to India; and if he will make a statement. can aid integration with the settled community. Delivery [62667] of such sites is most appropriately managed through planning system. The Government published their proposed Norman Baker [holding answer 28 June 2011]: Ministers new planning policy for Traveller sites for consultation and officials from the Department for Transport were on 13 April. Members are welcome to submit their made aware of the decision by East Coast Main Line views. Ltd to retender its contract for the supply of call centre services to the company. However all contractual issues in relation to the provision of those services are operational matters for East Coast Main Line Ltd and Directly TRANSPORT Operated Railways Ltd and Ministers were not involved Bus Services: Finance in any decisions.

Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for East Coast Railway Line: Legal Advice Transport whether he plans any further changes to the Bus Service Operators Grant between 2012 and 2015. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport [58767] what (a) legal advice he received and (b) consultation he undertook on the transfer of the East Coast Trains Norman Baker: In its business plan, the Department call centre from Newcastle to India. [62617] for Transport has committed to review the future distribution of Bus Service Operators Grant by March Norman Baker [holding answer 28 June 2011]: The 2012. The Department is working with bus operators Department for Transport has not sought any legal and local government to look at smarter ways of delivering advice or undertaken any consultations into this matter. bus subsidy, and is keen to see what can be developed by Decisions on the contractual arrangements for the provision consensus between local authorities and operators. An of call centre services to East Coast Main Line Ltd are announcement will be made in due course. operational matters for the company. 1237W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1238W

Parking: Fines Alternatively, and subject to the terms of the contract between the hirer and the vehicle owner, the parties may Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for agree that any penalty charges incurred will be debited Transport (1) whether car rental companies will be able by the vehicle owner to the credit card account of the to transfer liability for parking fines from the registered hirer. keeper to the driver of a vehicle following implementation Pedestrian Crossings: Greater London of the provisions of the Protection of Freedoms Bill; [58928] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (2) what representations he has received on proposals how many school crossing patrol officers were employed to allow an exemption for the car rental industry from in each London borough in each year since 1988. provisions of the Protection of Freedoms Bill that will [64177] make rental companies liable for paying parking fines incurred by their customers on private land; and if he Mike Penning: The Department for Transport does will make a statement. [58929] not hold figures for the numbers of school crossing patrol officers employed in each London borough in Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has each year. The employment of school crossing patrol received a number of representations from one car officers is a matter for local authorities. rental company. Currently, if a vehicle has been parked on private Roads: Accidents land, and a contract has been created, that contract is between the driver at the time and the landowner (or Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport their agent). The proposed provisions in the Protection how many road traffic accidents involving children there of Freedoms Bill mean that the vehicle keeper should have been in each London borough in each year since pay the parking-related charge if they were the driver at 1988. [64178] the time. If they were not the driver at the time they may give the name and address of the driver to the landowner Mike Penning: The number of reported personal or their agent for them to pursue payment from the injury road accidents involving children (aged 0 to 15 driver. This would apply equally to any vehicle keeper, years) in each London borough in each year since 1988 whether a car rental company or private owner. is shown in Tables 1 and 2.

Table 1: Number of reported personal injury road accidents involving children1, Greater London: 1988-99 Number of reported personal injury accidents London borough 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999

City of London 6 16 9 8 1173748124 Barking and 189 176 201 160 162 131 149 145 153 162 158 138 Dagenham Barnet 211 196 221 202 202 207 215 196 183 168 183 184 Bexley 151 137 161 138 137 134 112 135 148 120 120 134 Brent 233 227 220 227 211 192 180 178 172 191 175 171 Bromley 193 202 188 177 154 146 185 155 163 196 182 153 Camden 150 130 121 114 126 107 103 112 101 96 104 81 Croydon 229 237 233 239 238 243 284 245 227 221 228 258 Ealing 208 260 236 202 208 173 191 175 187 176 180 210 Enfield 195 195 184 188 207 205 214 192 199 193 181 212 Greenwich 224 253 256 213 223 164 203 219 174 174 181 188 Hackney 195 218 223 175 169 190 188 165 173 182 160 163 Hammersmith and 106 114 108 102 100 79 99 83 83 107 76 83 Fulham Haringey 161 179 164 162 157 157 139 159 136 156 153 120 Harrow 124 119 109 102 108 92 104 110 104 94 90 90 Havering 224 229 221 176 187 156 141 172 156 158 161 129 Hillingdon 182 223 197 194 188 204 170 200 152 173 152 142 Hounslow 195 197 211 174 159 174 166 146 160 . 175 160 134 Islington 127 158 153 143 136 113 98 101 104 105 108 120 Kensington and 87 68 72 66 72 73 60 66 50 49 67 49 Chelsea Kingston upon 118 117 106 90 87 84 81 76 65 71 75 51 Thames Lambeth 255 261 260 249 244 231 235 249 203 204 204 205 Lewisham 233 229 207 217 219 227 220 189 191 217 195 206 Merton 95 115 145 81 103 97 95 95 125 99 98 99 1239W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1240W

Table 1: Number of reported personal injury road accidents involving children1, Greater London: 1988-99 Number of reported personal injury accidents London borough 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999

Newham 227 264 334 242 230 260 229 214 228 233 208 225 Redbridge 147 174 162 161 152 144 162 170 162 134 148 171 Richmond upon 87 102 91 90 68 84 94 82 76 67 74 58 Thames Southwark 239 239 268 217 209 224 208 199 153 191 182 186 Sutton 112 139 137 136 124 107 114 106 98 97 106 91 Tower Hamlets 178 191 185 169 162 144 138 143 128 108 128 118 Waltham Forest 186 196 192 183 199 162 138 162 156 151 166 151 Wandsworth 193 188 172 174 153 146 171 150 163 135 137 138 Westminster 157 161 160 153 131 142 113 112 127 121 124 115 Heathrowairport040454326313

Greater London2 5,617 5,914 5,907 5,328 5,241 5,003 5,005 4,910 4,710 4,735 4,677 4,580

Table 2: Number of reported personal injury road accidents involving children1, Greater London: 2000-10 Number of reported personal injury accidents London borough 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

City of London 77344024463 Barking and 120 118 105 77 99 86 74 55 65 65 72 Dagenham Barnet 163 156 134 121 124 89 75 93 77 78 93 Bexley 119 139 105 89 90 66 63 64 72 53 65 Brent 170 142 132 109 125 93 73 64 57 65 64 Bromley 114 128 144 98 90 85 67 78 69 57 62 Camden 9583776170503636263942 Croydon 231 209 165 142 145 138 117 97 90 101 109 Ealing 158 139 127 134 113 96 79 73 63 78 68 Enfield 170 152 168 127 113 94 69 71 63 87 85 Greenwich 175 170 144 116 105 97 96 82 85 67 72 Hackney 166 154 121 104 81 80 62 62 79 46 61 Hammersmith and 77 92 62 51 64 51 33 40 31 44 31 Fulham Haringey 152 137 132 103 109 83 77 53 56 80 82 Harrow 92 83 54 61 56 53 56 44 39 43 43 Havering 117 124 96 114 71 79 80 60 64 71 64 Hillingdon 144 171 121 104 123 96 82 77 73 79 81 Hounslow 122 131 93’ 108 84 76 67 58 76 64 71 Islington 110 100 95 87 53 48 43 32 34 38 41 Kensington and 60 45 45 47 30 31 28 25 28 38 24 Chelsea Kingston upon 61 54 54 39 33 36 38 33 37 39 32 Thames Lambeth 182 154 132 136 104 102 66 71 76 81 87 Lewisham 194 170 147 150 145 104 92 68 76 75 80 Merton 81 85 74 60 64 41 51 44 35 32 30 Newham 186 176 165 138 129 99 87 89 87 92 85 Redbridge 127 133 108 99 94 78 78 49 74 67 84 Richmond upon 52 55 44 47 36 33 23 41 28 20 41 Thames Southwark 187 170 160 143 105 108 84 67 71 89 79 Sutton 8791626867535050453433 Tower Hamlets 138 105 81 82 75 70 49 51 70 57 46 Waltham Forest 136 128 119 113 94 103 74 69 90 72 60 Wandsworth 106 120 99 76 68 59 55 62 49 57 58 Westminster 96 103 96 95 89 72 61 65 49 40 50 Heathrowairport21310202011

Greater London2 4,197 4,025 3,467 3,104 2,852 2,451 2,087 1,929 1,938 1,955 1,999 1 Aged 0 to 15 years 2 Includes figures for accidents on roads in Heathrow airport which are not counted by the London borough of Hillingdon. Source: Transport for London 1241W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1242W

Roads: Repairs and Maintenance Justine Greening: The Department has committed to publish details of all Ministers meetings, hospitality Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for and overseas travel, including that of the Chancellor. Transport what progress has been made on the report This data is published on the HM Treasury website and commissioned by his Department into potential sources can be found in the following link: of risk to strategic transport networks from activities http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm below roads and railways and on adjacent sites. [63296] Cheques Mike Penning: The recommendations within the reports compiled by both the Highways Agency and Network Mr Buckland: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Rail are currently being considered by the Secretary of what recent discussions he has had with major banks State for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member about the possibility of retaining cheque books beyond for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond). 2018. [59545] Mr Hoban: The Payments Council have made a commitment not to close the cheque clearing system TREASURY unless alternatives are put in place, including a paper based system. Board for Actuarial Standards The Government are clear that any alternative system will need to replicate the flexibility and ease of use of John Mann: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer cheques, while improving processing times, and be cost (1) how many applicants there were for appointment to effective. An alternative will need to have been tested in the Board for Actuarial Standards; and which such practice, and be widely available, widely acceptable and applicants were interviewed; [53048] widely adopted by users who do not currently have a (2) what criteria were used in making the appointment suitable alternative. Until this is demonstrated, there is of Sir Derek Wanless to the Board for Actuarial Standards. not a credible and coherent case for abolishing cheques. [53049] The Government are keenly monitoring the progress of the cheque replacement programme and are considering (3) where the opportunities for appointment to the whether they may need to intervene to protect vulnerable Board for Actuarial Standards were advertised. [53050] individuals and businesses if there is any threat that cheques may be withdrawn without suitable alternatives Mr Hoban: The Financial Reporting Council is a being put in place. private body. Appointments to the operating bodies of the FRC (of which the Board for Actuarial Standards is Mr Ellwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer one) are a matter for the FRC. what his policy is on the decision of the Payments Council to phase out of the use of cheques. [60058] Banks: Regulation Mr Hoban: The Payments Council have made a Mr Umunna: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer commitment not to close the cheque clearing system whether under the Project Merlin agreement chief unless alternatives are put in place, including a paper executive remuneration will reflect banks’ performance based system. against (a) stretch and (b) capacity lending targets. The Government are clear that any alternative system [60668] will need to replicate the flexibility and ease of use of cheques, while improving processing times, and be cost Mr Hoban: The Merlin statement commits the banks effective. An alternative will need to have been tested in to give the expectations, capacity and willingness relating practice, and be widely available, widely acceptable and to lending to small and medium sized businesses more widely adopted by users who do not currently have a weight in the performance metrics of the chief executives suitable alternative. Until this is demonstrated, there is of each bank for 2011, as well as the leaders responsible not a credible and coherent case for abolishing cheques. for the relevant business areas, than the SME lending The Government are keenly monitoring the progress of share of each bank’s profits might otherwise imply. the cheque replacement programme and are considering whether they may need to intervene to protect vulnerable Alun Cairns: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer individuals and businesses if there is any threat that what measures are in place to monitor the progress of cheques may be withdrawn without suitable alternatives the Project Merlin agreement with banks. [64450] being put in place. Mr Hoban: The Government are closely monitoring Commodity Markets the banks’ progress in meeting the commitments made under Project Merlin, and will provide further information Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the appropriate time. what assessment he has made of the findings of the report by the UN Conference on Trade and Development Bilderberg Group on the effects of financial investors on commodity prices. [63836] Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the cost to his Department was of (a) Mr Hoban: The report entitled “Price Formation in travel and (b) accommodation in connection with his Financialized Commodity Markets” is UNCTAD’s latest attendance at the Bilderberg conference 2011. [62437] contribution to the debate on the impact of financial 1243W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1244W investors on commodity prices. It has a particular focus European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism on the importance of market information and the scope that might exist for herding in commodity derivative Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer markets. The Government strongly support G20 what estimate he has made of the proportion of the commitment to improve the regulation, functioning, sums committed to EU financial stabilisation mechanisms and transparency of financial and commodity markets. which will revert to the Exchequer. [57339] The report concludes by floating a number of ideas as options for a possible regulatory response by the Mr Hoban: The European Financial Stabilisation international community. They are an interesting Mechanism (EFSM) is financed by the European contribution to the debate. But given the scope that Commission raising funds on capital markets, guaranteed exists for rules in this area to have counter-productive by the EU Budget. There is no direct impact on the EU impacts, a clear understanding of the associated costs Budget and therefore on the Exchequer from any such and benefits of all proposals is important. The Government borrowing by the Commission. Only in the event that a would need to see a more detailed assessment of the beneficiary member state defaults on loan repayments specific proposals before it would comment on them. would the EU Budget be adversely affected. Any repayments or other revenue arising from the Departmental Billing EFSM would be returned to the EU Budget, where it would contribute to any budgetary surplus and thereby Oliver Heald: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer help to lower member states’ future contributions. This what proportion of invoices from small and medium-sized revenue would not be returned directly to member businesses were paid by his Department within five states. working days of receipt in the last 12 months for which The December European Council agreed that a figures are available. [63570] permanent mechanism to safeguard the financial stability of the euro area as a whole (European Stability Justine Greening: The Department’s aim is to pay all Mechanism—ESM) will be established by ‘the member valid goods and services invoices within five working states of the euro area’ from 2013. The Government days and this applies to all suppliers of goods and have ensured that the UK will not be part of the services. permanent European Stability Mechanism. In addition, once the ESM comes into existence, it will replace both Details of the Treasury Group’s performance against the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM) this five working day aim since May 2010 can be found and the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF). on the department’s website at: Therefore the EFSM will cease to exist in July 2013, at www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/group_payment_performance.htm the latest.

Departmental Official Cars Excise Duties: Fuels

Stephen Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Richard Fuller: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer what the cost to his Department was of the whether he has any plans to introduce a scheme for the provision of ministerial cars in each financial year repayment of excise duty on fuel for disabled drivers. between 2000-01 and 2010-11; how many (a) cars for [63914] the exclusive use of Ministers and (b) ministerial car journeys were paid for by his Department in each such Justine Greening: We are committed to supporting year; what the average cost to his Department of a disabled people to ensure that they can live full and ministerial car journey was in each such year; and what active lives. The mobility component of disability living steps his Department has taken to reduce the cost of allowance is currently available to help disabled people Ministerial cars since his appointment. [62986] who face extra costs when getting around. In 2013 we will replace disability living allowance with personal independence payment, which will include a mobility Justine Greening: Information on the cost and number component. The new benefit will be focused on individuals of ministerial cars has been published in annual written whose health condition or impairment has the most ministerial statements since 2005, available in the Libraries impact on their lives. of both Houses. Details of the costs for 2010-11 are in the process of being compiled and are due for release in Financial Services July 2011. Information prior to 2005 is not available and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Jonathan Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what recent discussions he has had with Departmental Statistics representatives of the financial services industry on steps to ensure transparency in the description of Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer financial products for consumers; and if he will make a what statistical data his Department has ceased to statement; [64583] collect in the last year; and what the (a) reasons for (2) what steps he is taking to facilitate UK bank and (b) savings arising from each such cessation were. account holders switching personal current accounts [63671] between banks; and if he will make a statement. [64518]

Justine Greening: HM Treasury has not ceased to Mr Hoban: The Government have an ongoing dialogue collect any statistical data in the last year. with the banking and financial services community. 1245W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1246W

The Government established an Independent The treaty establishing the ESM will be signed and Commission on Banking to examine a range of issues, presented to euro area Parliaments for ratification in including competition in the retail banking and personal the coming weeks. current account markets. The Government welcomes the progress that the Commission has made and looks Minimum Wage forward to receiving its final report in September 2011. Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Financial Services: Advisory Services how many jobs HM Revenue and Customs identified as being paid below the rate of national minimum wage Mike Weatherley: Toask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in each region in each year since its inception. [63665] what assessment he has made of the contribution of the voluntary sector to providing advice to the public on Mr Gauke: Estimates of the number of people in low savings and loans. [30440] paid jobs, and specifically those paid less than the national minimum wage, are published by the Office for Mr Hoban: The Money Advice Service was established National Statistics annually in October. in April 2010 to promote understanding of the financial system and raise levels of financial capability across the The ONS publishes tables on the National Statistics UK. MAS is operationally independent and funded by website showing the number of UK jobs from 1998 a levy on the financial services industry. MAS regularly onwards paid below the minimum wage for those aged engages with the voluntary sector. 18-21 and those aged 22 and over, by age, gender, full-time or part-time work, by industry sector, by Government Office Region and by occupation. From International Monetary Fund 2005, estimates of the number of 16-17 year olds paid below the national minimum wage have also been published. Oliver Heald: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his policy to require the International Ms Buck: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Monetary Fund to apply as a condition for a loan that what proportion of the sum identified as national minimum any applicant country with identifiable poor performance wage underpayments to employees in (a) 2009-10 and in its administration of asylum claims demonstrates (b) 2010-11 has now been paid. [63756] improvement in such administration. [64033] Mr Gauke: HMRC has identified minimum wage Mr Hoban: When a member country requests assistance arrears of almost £9 million between April 2009 and the from the IMF, IMF staff discuss with the country the end of June 2011. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs economic policies that may be expected to address the does not keep separate statistics on the amount of problems most effectively. The IMF then aims to ensure arrears paid or not paid to workers. that conditions linked to IMF loan disbursements are focused and adequately tailored to the varying strengths HMRC will pursue any known non-payment of arrears of members’ policies and fundamentals. through civil recovery action. The UK supports this approach, and considers that the conditions attached to any IMF programme should Ms Buck: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer be focused on restoring macro-economic stability to the what recent assessment he has made of the effects of country in difficulty. For this reason, we do not believe labour market conditions on the workload of national in a “one size fits all” approach to IMF conditionality. minimum wage compliance officers. [63757] Further details of IMF lending and conditionality policy can be found at: Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the House on 11 November 2010, Official http://www.imf.org/external/about/lending.htm Report, column 471W.

Loans: Republic of Ireland National Insurance Contributions: New Businesses Mark Reckless: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the bilateral Irish loan still ranks above private Caroline Nokes: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer sector debt, including private holdings of Irish gilts, in what assessment he has made of the economic effects line with that of Eurozone credit extended under the on the South East of the exclusion of that region from European Financial Stability Facility, following the the regional employer national insurance contributions Eurozone agreement of 20 June 2011. [63630] holiday. [63841]

Mr Hoban: Article 13.3 of the bilateral loan agreement Mr Gauke: No specific assessment has been made of with Ireland states that the economic effects of the National Insurance ’the Borrower [Ireland] must ensure that its payment obligations Contributions (NICs) Holiday on the South East. under this Agreement at all times rank at least pari passu with all The policy is designed to support new businesses in its other present and future unsecured indebtedness.’ parts of the country that are most reliant on the public In his statement to the press following the Eurogroup sector. The Government have considered the case for meeting of 20 June, Eurogroup President Jean-Claude extending the NICs Holiday to all regions but believes Juncker said that the European Stability Mechanism the best use of public funds at this time is to keep the (ESM) will not claim preferred creditor status as regards NICs Holiday as a targeted scheme for those areas in loans to countries that already have a support programme. most need of employment support. 1247W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1248W

Pensions: Taxation Registered pension schemes: Cost of tax relief 1998-99 £ million

Rachel Reeves: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer By employers 5,500 when he plans to respond to question 57259, on pension Personal pension scheme contributions: tax relief, tabled on 19 May 2011 for answer on 23 May. By employees 1,000 [62977] By employers 440 PP and RAC contributions by self-employed 1,100 Mr Gauke [holding answer 30 June 2011]: Ihavenow 1 replied to the hon. Member. National insurance rebates to PPs 180 Investment income of funds2 4,300 Personal Savings Lump sum payments from unfunded schemes3 350

Steve Baker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Less tax liable on what steps he is taking to support existing savers; and Pension payments4 6,100 what steps he is taking to encourage people to save. Refunds by funds to employers in connection with 29 [61574] pension fund surpluses

Mr Hoban: The Government’s savings strategy is Total (rounded to nearest £100 million) 8,300 based on the principles of freedom, fairness and responsibility and aims to work with the grain of saving Memorandum item habits. In particular, the Government aim to encourage more lower and middle income households to start to National insurance relief on employer contributions5 2,800 save and save more, especially for the long-term and PP = personal pension RAC = retirement annuity contract retirement. 1 Basic rate of tax relief paid to scheme administrators in respect of The Government have taken steps to support existing the employees’ part of the national insurance rebate. savers and encourage new savers, including: 2 The cost of relief on investment income is for both occupational and personal pension schemes funds; it is not possible to provide reliable 1. Promoting choice, by providing flexibility to consumers in a estimates distinctly. The estimate assumes relief at the basic rate of competitive market including introducing a Junior ISA, removing tax. Estimates of relief for capital gains realised by pension funds are the effective requirement to annuitise at age 75 and ensuring not included because of estimation difficulties. transfer on cash ISAs is no more than 15 working days. 3 Assuming that lump sum payments in unfunded schemes represent 2. Promoting fairness by ensuring that saving is appropriately the same proportion of total benefit as that observed for funded incentivised and rewarded, including introducing automatic enrolment schemes, and assuming relief at the basic rate of tax. On the same of employees into a pension scheme from next year, reforming the assumption the cost of all lump sums would be around £2.5 billion for way pensions tax relief is restricted and indexing ISA contribution 2008-09. 4 limits. Assuming that pension payments represent the top slice of taxable income. 3. Promoting personal responsibility within the saving, debt 5 On the basis that under present arrangements, employer contributions and protection system; so individuals are equipped to exercise are not subject to a national insurance charge. effective choice and plan for expected and unexpected events, industry introducing a free and impartial national financial advice The breakdowns of the relief requested in (b), (c) service, which includes a Financial Healthcheck delivered by the and (d) for each year are not readily available. However, Money Advice Service, the development of simple financial products, the following estimates have been made for the tax year and ensuring reforms to the state pension system provide clear 2009-10: incentives for people to save for their retirement. (b) The relief in respect of standard rate taxpayers is estimated Tax Allowances: Pensions to be one third of the total. (c) The relief in respect of higher rate taxpayers is estimated to Rachel Reeves: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer be two thirds of the total. what estimate he has made of the cost to the public (d) The following table shows the approximate percentage of purse of pensions tax relief in each year since 1990 (a) total tax relief by income decile of all tax payers: in total, (b) in respect of standard rate taxpayers, (c) in respect of higher rate taxpayers and (d) by income For all taxpayers decile; and what change in cost would have been achieved 2009-10 tax year Income by limiting tax relief to standard rate taxpayers. [57259] decile Percentage of total relief

Mr Gauke: The information requested is as follows: Bottom 11 (a) The estimated total cost of the various tax reliefs decile relating to pensions are published by HM Revenue and 21 Customs on their website and can be found at: 31 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/pensions/table7-9.pdf 42 The published table shows each year since 1999-2000. 53 Figures for 1998-99 are also available and are as follows: 64 Registered pension schemes: Cost of tax relief 1998-99 76 £ million 88 Relief for 917 Occupational scheme contributions: Top 10 58 decile By employees 2,500 1249W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1250W

If relief on pension contributions were limited to the English Heritage offered over £400,000 to projects in basic rate of tax, the amount of this relief would fall by Kent in 2009-10 under its two main grant programmes. approximately one third. This estimate does not take English Heritage grant-aid has helped preserve important account of behavioural effects, which are likely to be heritage sites at Shurland Hall, Sheppey, the No 1 large. Smithery at Chatham Historic Dockyard and at The reductions in the annual allowance and lifetime Westenhanger Castle in Folkestone. Survey work on the allowance from 2011-12 will reduce the cost of relief by Hoo Peninsula undertaken by English Heritage is extending around £4 billion per annum, almost all of which will understanding and protection to a little-studied landscape relate to the top income decile. under considerable pressure for change. In Margate, Dover, Gravesend and the Medway towns, a number of heritage assets have been assessed for statutory designation in a series of Defined Area Surveys (some of which are CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ongoing), resulting in a number of newly listed buildings and scheduled monuments. Advertising: Children Departmental Billing Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, he has made of trends in the level of advertising aimed Olympics, Media and Sport what proportion of invoices at children in the last 30 years; and what assessment he from small and medium-sized businesses were paid by has made of the effects of such advertising on children. his Department within five working days of receipt in [63604] the last 12 months for which figures are is available. [63566] Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for John Penrose: The Department’s payment systems do South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has made no such not currently distinguish between payments to large assessments himself, but the effects of certain advertising and small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). Both on children is considered by the Committee of Advertising are given equal priority. Practice and its broadcasting equivalent in establishing During the period June 2010 to May 2011, the their codes and by Ofcom and was also recently examined Department’s overall performance against the by Reg Bailey in his review of the commercialisation Government’s target of paying 80% of valid invoices and sexualisation of childhood. within five working days was 74.1%. Broadband: Hertfordshire Departmental Freedom of Information Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether his broadband Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, objectives include completing the full roll-out of superfast Olympics, Media and Sport how many requests under broadband in North East Hertfordshire constituency. the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 [63339] his Department received from (a) hon. Members from each political party and (b) members of the public in Mr Vaizey: The Government aim to ensure that 90% each year since the Act’s entry into force. [63584] of UK premises have access to superfast broadband and the remainder have access to at least 2Mbps broadband John Penrose: The Department does not record details by 2015, including in Hertfordshire and has made available of FOI requests in this way. All requests received under £530 million to assist the delivery of these objectives. the Freedom of Information Act 2000 are treated the same, irrespective of the professional or political position Cultural Heritage: Kent of the applicant. Since the Freedom of Information Act 2000 came Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for into force in January 2005 the Ministry of Justice (MOJ) Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps he is have published statistics, including the number of FOI taking to preserve heritage sites in Kent. [63283] cases received by this Department, on their website http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/foi/ John Penrose: English Heritage has recently launched implementation.htm the National Heritage Protection Plan, which sets out why, what and how England’s vulnerable historic Digital Broadcasting environment is to be safeguarded in the next four years. Developed in consultation with a wide range of partners, it shows where the threats are the greatest and will help Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for English Heritage to prioritise its work. It will also help Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what steps his other heritage professionals and volunteers to contribute Department is taking in respect of technical standards to the business of managing England’s heritage. This and frequency allocations to minimise the likelihood of Department and English Heritage are also considering future switchovers; [63312] various measures to tackle the problem of buildings (2) what consideration his Department has given to which have been on the Heritage At Risk Register for the use of coverage characteristics of Band I for digital an extended period of time. broadcasting. [63313] 1251W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1252W

Mr Vaizey: Ofcom are responsible for managing the Mr Jeremy Hunt: The Department for Transport radio spectrum to ensure its most optimal use in delivering (DFT) is the Government Department leading on transport benefits to UK consumers and citizens. The Secretary for the Olympic and Paralympic games in 2012. Both of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my DFT and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey have worked closely with the Olympic Delivery Authority (Mr Hunt), meets regularly with Ofcom to discuss (ODA) on the delivery of the Olympic Transport Plans specific or general spectrum management issues and that have been published to date. this includes possible future uses of particular bands. Following publication of the First Edition of the The Secretary of State has had no such discussion on Olympic Transport Plan in October 2007, and the the possible use of Band 1 for digital broadcasting. consultation version of the Second Edition in December Digital Economy Act 2010 2009, the final version of the Second Edition of the ODA’s Transport Plan for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games was published on 1 June 2011. Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for At this time, there is no intention to issue a third edition Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he plans unless there is a material change. to respond to the report from the UN Special Rapporteur for Freedom of Expression on the Digital Economy Act Olympic Games 2012 2010; and if he will make a statement. [63405]

Mr Vaizey: The Government have responded to the Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Human Rights Council, welcoming the Special Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he has made Rapporteur’s report and supporting the general thrust of the number of applications for tickets to the London of his conclusions and recommendations. The Government 2012 Olympics which were received in the first application share the view that access to the internet is extremely round; and how many of those applicants received important. However, it is also important to seek to tickets for (a) 20 events or more, (b) 10 to 19 events, safeguard intellectual property, and Government must (c) five to nine events, (d) two to four events, (e) one set the balance in a fair and proportionate way. The event and (f) no events. [63672] Government’s response was published on 3 June 2011 on the website for the UK Mission to the UN: Hugh Robertson: The Secretary of State for Culture, http://ukungeneva.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/our-work/human- Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the rights Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has made no such estimate. The London 2012 Organising Committee Internet: Copyright is responsible for the ticketing arrangements for the Olympic Games. They have confirmed 1.9 million Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for applications were received in the first round. 700,000 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions applicants were successful, being allocated 3 million his Department has had with (a) internet service providers tickets. Each successful applicant, on average, secured and (b) copyright holders on proposals to introduce between four and five tickets which totalled around website blocking; and if he will make a statement. £275. Those that were not successful were given priority [63821] in the second round of sales.

Mr Vaizey: The Government are regularly in discussion Public Appointments with all relevant parts of industry about ways to reduce online copyright infringement. As a part of that wider Margaret Hodge: To ask the Secretary of State for dialogue, Government have hosted two discussions between Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many and copyright owners, internet service providers, search engines what proportion of public appointees to his Department’s and consumer representation on issues around blocking public bodies made by (a) his Department, (b) the access to websites that are focussed primarily on infringing Prime Minister, (c) the Crown and (d) the boards of copyright. These took place on 4 April and 15 June those bodies since May 2010 had a known political 2011, at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. affiliation; and what those affiliations were in each such Museums and Galleries case. [64119] Mr Jeremy Hunt: Information on my Department’s Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for individual public appointments, including any political Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will take steps activity declared by those persons appointed, is published to increase the autonomy of museums. [64168] on our website, in accordance with the Commissioner for Public Appointments’ Code of Practice: Mr Jeremy Hunt: My officials are in ongoing discussions with the museums and other Government Departments http://www.culture.gov.uk/about_us/public_appointments/ 1006.aspx to determine how national museums can be given greater administrative freedoms. Radio Olympic and Paralympic Transport Plan Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment he has Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what role his made of the effects of allocating more than 16 MHz of Department is playing in preparation of the final Band III to local DAB radio on local FM stations that Olympic and Paralympic Transport Plan. [63534] occupy 9 MHz of Band II. [63540] 1253W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1254W

Mr Vaizey: No specific assessment has been made of Number of Cost of ministerial the impact of allocating Band HE spectrum for local Financial year ministerial cars cars (£) DAB on FM stations which occupy Band II. However, we note that the vast majority of FM stations are 2005-06 5 319,700 simulcast on local DAB, providing these stations with 2006-07 5 324,500 the potential for greater coverage and improved reception 2007-08 4 267,800 and functionality for listeners. In 2010 the Government 2008-09 4 262,400 launched the Digital Radio Action Plan to consider the 2009-10 2 275,989 case for a radio switchover which would, if implemented, allow for the re-allocation of much of the Band II Details of the costs for 2010-11 are being compiled spectrum currently used for radio for other purposes. and are due for release in July 2011. Information prior to 2005 is not available and would be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Since the introduction of the ’on-demand’ Ministerial Car Service on 6 September ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS 2010 DEFRA Ministers have made 30 car journeys through this service up until 31 March 2011. Since my appointment we have reduced number of permanent Beaches: Sunderland cars used for ministerial travel to one.

Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Regulation Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is taking to ensure that beaches in the Sunderland area Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for are (a) clean and (b) safe for bathing. [63707] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the name is of each regulatory measure revoked by her Department Richard Benyon: Sunderland city council is responsible between 1 March and 31 May 2011; and what estimate for the day to day cleanliness of its beaches. The she has made of the potential annual saving to those Environment Agency (EA) and Sunderland city council affected by each revocation. [60495] have completed surveys of the beaches that found very little evidence of any significant pollution. Occasionally Mr Paice: The Department repealed the following small amounts of sewage-related debris are found from 18 statutory instruments between 1 March 2011 and storm sewage overflows. This is a minor problem and 31 May 2011: appropriate clean-ups are carried out. 1. The Environmental Protection (Duty of Care) Regulations The EA monitors the quality of bathing water 1991 (SI 1991/2839), in so far as they apply to England and Wales. throughout the bathing season from May to September. 2. The Waste Management Licensing Regulations 1994 Since 1995, Sunderland’s designated bathing waters (SI 1994/1056), in so far as they apply to England and Wales. have always met the ‘mandatory’ bathing water quality 3. The Controlled Waste (Registration of Carriers and Seizure standard under the Bathing Waters Directive. In eight of Vehicles) (Amendment) Regulations 1998 (SI 1998/605), in so of the last ten years they have also met the higher far as they apply to England and Wales. ‘excellent’ standard. These are very good results for 4. The Environmental Protection (Duty of Care)(England) bathing waters so close to a large urban area, and (Amendment) Regulations 2003 (SI 2003/63). demonstrate that the sewerage systems put in place to 5. The Environmental Protection Act (Amendment of Section protect the water quality are performing well. 57) (England and Wales) Regulations 2005 (SI 2005/3026). The EA has compared the bathing water results to 6. The Animal By-Products Regulations 2005 (SI 2005/2347), the tighter standards in the revised Bathing Water Directive, so far as they apply in England. which comes into force in 2015. This predicts that 7. The Avian Influenza (H5N1) (Miscellaneous Amendments) designated bathing waters in the area will meet the Order 2007 (SI 2007/3303). ‘good’ or ‘excellent’ standards, which is over and above 8. The Animal By-Products (Amendment) Regulations 2009 the ‘sufficient’ standard required. The EA will continue (SI 2009/1119). to monitor to ensure that this remains the case. 9. The Sea Fishing (Enforcement of Community Measures) (Penalty Notices) Order 2008 (SI 2008/984), except in so far as it Departmental Official Cars applies in Wales or to the Welsh Zone. 10. The Environmental Impact Assessment and Natural Habitats (Extraction of Minerals by Marine Dredging) (Wales) Regulations Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 (SI 2007/2610). Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the cost to 11. The Environmental Impact Assessment and Natural Habitats her Department was of the provision of ministerial (Extraction of Minerals by Marine Dredging) (England and cars in each financial year between 2000-01 and Northern Ireland) Regulations 2007 (SI 2007/1067). 2010-11; how many (a) cars for the exclusive use of 12.The Marine Works (Environmental Impact Assessment) Ministers and (b) ministerial car journeys were paid (Amendment) (England and Wales) Regulations 2009 (SI 2009/2258). for by her Department in each such year; what the 13.The Smoke Control Areas (Exempted Fireplaces) (England) average cost to her Department of a ministerial car (No. 2) Order 2010 (SI 2010/2173). journey was in each such year; and what steps her 14. The Environment Agency (Levies) Regulations 1993 Department has taken to reduce the cost of ministerial (SI 1993/61). cars since her appointment. [63002] 15. The Local Fisheries Committees (Fees for Copy Byelaws) Order 1993 (SI 1993/1116). Richard Benyon: The costs of ministerial cars for 16. The North Western and North Wales Sea Fisheries District DEFRA is as follows: (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Order 2010 (SI 2010/631). 1255W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1256W

17. The Seed Marketing Regulations 2010 (SI 2010/2605). Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for 18. The Poultry Meat (Water Content) Regulations 1984 (1984/ Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what legislation 1145). prevents the use of a railway embankment for Information on the equivalent annual net saving to containment of water; and if she will make a statement. business of DEFRA’s domestic regulations repealed [63446] between 1 January and 30 June 2011 was published in the Government’s ‘One-in, One-out: Statement of New Richard Benyon: The legislation that could prevent Regulation’ published in April 2011 and which is available the use of a railway embankment for containment of to view at: water is Schedule 22 of the Water Resources Act 1991. http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/better-regulation/docs/o/ This states that works which directly or indirectly interfere 11-p96a-one-in-one-out-new-regulation.pdf with works or property vested in or under the control of The overall effect was an equivalent annual net saving a railway company (or the use of such works or property) to business of £28,000 arising from DEFRA’s regulations. so as to affect injuriously those works or that property cannot be carried out without consent. Consent may be Food: Reserves given by the railway company subject to reasonable conditions, but cannot unreasonably be withheld. Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what contribution her Department Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for plans to make to the G20 Development Working Group Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has on the deployment of emergency food stocks. [63829] plans to bring forward proposals to amend the Reservoirs Act 1975 and the associated guidance; and if she will Mr O’Brien: I have been asked to reply. make a statement. [63455] The UK is generally supportive of G20 plans to Richard Benyon: Proposals to amend the Reservoirs develop a strategic regional humanitarian food reserves Act 1975 and the associated guidance will be brought under the leadership of the World Food Programme forward as part of the implementation of the Flood and (WFP) as outlined in the G20 Agriculture Ministers Water Management Act 2010. Action Plan launched on the 23 June 2011. I am clear, however, that the proposal for a pilot Tyre Bales study must include a feasibility study and cost benefit analysis and must provide evidence that this kind of Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for approach is more cost effective than other approaches Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what timetable to addressing acute food insecurity. Department for her Department has set for research and investigation International Development officials will participate in to develop a quality protocol for tyre bales to meet the the design of the pilot and will be represented on the end-of-waste criteria and cease to be waste. [63348] high level stakeholder workshop in September at which WFP’s draft proposal will be discussed. Richard Benyon: Quality protocols identify the point Reservoirs at which waste has been fully recovered and may be regarded as a non-waste product or material, and supplied into markets without the need for waste management Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for controls. Developing quality protocols to unlock such Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what definition markets is a joint effort between the sector concerned, she uses of a community for the purposes of guidance the Environment Agency and the Waste and Resources issued under the Reservoir Act 1975. [63444] Action Programme. This involves some industry funding, which is a commercial decision for the sector involved. Richard Benyon: Current non-statutory guidance used by Reservoirs Act panel engineers states that, for the There is no set timetable for the development of a purposes of the guidance, a “community” is considered quality protocol for tyre bales. Work on assessing the to be not less than about 10 persons who could be feasibility of such a protocol has started, but further affected by a disastrous breach as a result of the under- research needs to be undertaken, with industry funding. provision of spillway capacity. Water Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what definition Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for is used to define (a) a bund or (b) a reservoir for flood Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will defence purposes; and if she will make a statement. instruct Thames Water to ensure there is independent [63445] monitoring of any future feasibility studies that may be required in the preparation of a revised draft Water Richard Benyon: Neither of these terms has a legal Resources Management Plan. [63830] definition, but for practical purposes the following definitions are commonly used: Richard Benyon: Under the water resources management planning process, it is for Thames Water to undertake (a) a flood defence bund is an embankment designed to prevent flood water flowing from a watercourse and flooding the work necessary to inform its revised draft plan. adjacent land; When determining the robustness of the work, and (b) a flood storage reservoir is a structure or area designed to whether to agree that the revised draft plan should be store water from a watercourse for a period of time to reduce the published, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food risk of flooding downstream. This water is later released when the and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for risk of flooding has receded. Meriden (Mrs Spelman), will consider how Thames 1257W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1258W

Water has taken into account the comments and concerns Mr Paterson: I have had regular discussions with the raised by third parties. The Secretary of State will also First and Deputy First Ministers of Northern Ireland be seeking the advice of the Environment Agency. on our shared goal of rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy.This includes discussion on the potential benefits of a reduced rate of corporation tax for Northern Ireland. I have also had brief informal discussions with NORTHERN IRELAND the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales at the British-Irish Fuel Smuggling Council. Departmental Responsibilities 12. Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with HM Revenue and Customs on revenue losses Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern attributable to fuel smuggling and other illegal activities Ireland on how many occasions a request for a meeting in border regions of Northern Ireland. [63179] by an hon. Member of each political party has been refused by (a) a Minister in his Department directly Mr Swire: My officials liaise closely with HM Revenue and (b) his Department on behalf of a Minister since and Customs, which is the lead department on fuel May 2010. [64422] smuggling and related activity in Northern Ireland. As the 2011 Organised Crime Task Force’s Threat Assessment Mr Paterson: None. makes clear, smuggling remains a significant terrorist revenue source and we support HMRC in their efforts Inward Investment to crack down on it. Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Access to Work Programme Ireland what recent discussions he has had with the US Administration on inward investment into Northern Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Ireland. [63180] Northern Ireland how many employees with disabilities in his Department are receiving support from the Access Mr Paterson: The lead responsibility for attracting to Work programme; and what proportion of the workforce inward investment to Northern Ireland lies with the of his Department this figure represents. [64393] Executive, but we co-operate closely in support of their efforts. Mr Paterson: No member of staff in my Department I have had regular discussions on inward investment is currently receiving support from the Access to Work with representatives of the United States Administration, programme. including Secretary Clinton when I met her in Washington. By-elections: West Belfast Parades Commission Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what the total cost to the public purse was of Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern the June 2011 by-election for the West Belfast constituency. Ireland (1) what (a) conferences and (b) meetings held [63543] outside Northern Ireland and paid for out of public funds have been attended by each member of the Parades Mr Swire: A total figure for the cost of holding the Commission since their appointment; [64023] by-election is not yet available. However, the Parliamentary (2) what training courses have been attended by each Elections (Returning Officer’s Charges) (Northern Ireland) member of the Parades Commission since their Order 2010 specifies that the maximum amount that appointment; and what the cost of attendance was at may be recovered by the returning officer in respect of each such course; [64024] this election is £130,000. (3) what (a) remuneration, (b) travel expenses, (c) Constituencies expenses and (d) other payments have been made to each member of the Parades Commission since their appointment. [64026] Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what assessment he has made of the work of the Mr Paterson: These are matters for the Parades Boundary Commission in Northern Ireland in revising Commission, which operates independently of Government. constituency boundaries. [63628] The right hon. Gentleman may wish to write to the Mr Swire: The proposed distribution of constituencies Commission directly on these matters. will be set out by the Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland in a review which they hope to publish by the Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern end of the year. It would be inappropriate to comment Ireland what assessment he has made of the work of the until then. Parades Commission since the appointment of the new Commission. [64025] Corporation Tax Mr Paterson: I have met with the Parades Commission Paul Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for on a number of occasions since its appointment. I am Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had pleased to see that the new Commission is not shying with the First Ministers of Northern Ireland, Scotland away from looking at the difficult issues which exist and Wales on the rate of corporation tax. [63181] within parading. I would like to commend the members 1259W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1260W of the Commission for the review of the Commission’s including the Commonwealth Scholarships Commission, processes that they have instigated and look forward to the Association of Commonwealth Universities, the seeing its outworking in the autumn. Marshall Aid Commemoration Commission, and the British Council. We welcomed the contributions all Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern these bodies made to our recent Chevening review and Ireland how many meetings he has had with the Parades are collectively considering with them whether there Commission since the new Commission was appointed. would be merit in establishing a more formal cross- [64027] Government working group to provide a forum for our exchanges. Mr Paterson: I have met with the Parades Commission on three occasions since the current Commission was Departmental Freedom of Information appointed on 1 January 2011. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many requests under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE his Department received from (a) hon. Members from Anguilla: Seas and Oceans each political party and (b) members of the public in each year since the Act’s entry into force. [63577]

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Bellingham: The Ministry of Justice publishes Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment quarterly and annual statistics on the volume, timeliness he has made of the state of Anguilla’s marine environment. and outcome of information requests received by over [63464] 40 central Government bodies. The information provided by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) today Mr Bellingham: Responsibility for environmental issues may include data on routine information requests that is devolved to the Governments of the Overseas Territories. are not included in the Ministry of Justice’s published Anguilla’s Department of Fisheries and Marine Resources statistics on Freedom of Information implementation published in 2010 a document entitled ″Status of Anguilla’s ″ in central Government, so there may be slight variations Marine Resources which contains an assessment of between the Ministry of Justice’s figures on overall requests, Anguilla’s marine environment. and those of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. British Overseas Territories The Foreign and Commonwealth Office does not collect statistics about the background of individual Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for requesters. This is because the Freedom of Information Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress his Act is applicant and motive blind and therefore it is not Department has made on its Overseas Territories necessary to record or determine whether a requestor is White Paper; and if he will make a statement. [63466] a Member of Parliament or member of the public. However, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has Mr Bellingham: I refer the hon. Member to the statement checked its records and is able to provide figures for made by the Secretary of State for Foreign and requests where the requestor has been readily identifiable Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member as a Member of Parliament, or from the office of an for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) to the House on MP or which have been sent by an MP on behalf of a 10 March 2011, Official Report, columns 76-77WS, in constituent. Divided on party lines and beginning when which the Secretary of State for Foreign and the Act came into operation in January 2005, they are Commonwealth Affairs said the Government planned as are as follows: to bring all aspects of the Government’s policies on the From MPs: Overseas Territories together in a new White Paper in 2005 the course of the year ahead. This remains the position. Labour: 6 Commonwealth Scholarships Liberal Democrat: 2 Conservative: 1 Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Labour: 2 answer to Lord Lee of 30 November 2010, Official Liberal Democrat: 4 Report, House of Lords, column WA429, on Conservative: 11 Commonwealth scholarships, who attended the first 2007 meeting of the working group on all government Labour: 2 scholarships; what the outcome of the meeting was; and Liberal Democrat: 12 what further meetings are scheduled. [64140] Conservative: 9 Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Plaid Cymru: 1 is in regular contact with other Government Departments 2008 which fund scholarships, including the Department for Labour: 4 Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department for Liberal Democrat: 3 International Development, for the purposes of sharing information and best practice across different scholarship Conservative: 12 programmes. We are also in regular contact with other 2009 partners involved in scholarships for similar purposes, DUP: 1 1261W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1262W

Labour: 3 Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Liberal Democrat: 5 has received and continues to receive regular representations Conservative: 9 from parliamentarians and members of the public about 2010 the situation of Christians in Iraq. The number of representations rose sharply after the tragic attacks Labour: 25 against Christian groups in Iraq in late 2010. We continue Conservative: 10 to take this issue extremely seriously. Most recently our Liberal Democrat: 1 ambassador to Iraq met Baghdad-based Canon Andrew 2011 (until 31 March) White to discuss the current situation. Labour: 1 The Government are greatly concerned about those Liberal Democrat: 0 who are denied the right to freedom of religion or Conservative: 1 belief. We condemn all instances of violence and discrimination against individuals and groups because Total number of requests received: of their faith or belief, wherever they occur or whatever 2005: 1,315 the religion of the individual or group concerned. We, 2006: 1,030 together with international partners, regularly make 2007: 1,027 clear to Governments across the region the importance 2008: 1,024 we place on promoting cultural and religious tolerance 2009: 1,135 and on eliminating all legal provisions and policies 2010: 1,185 which discriminate against different religious communities. 2011 (until 31 March): 362. Libya: Politics and Government Departmental Official Cars Kwasi Kwarteng: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Department is taking steps to support the National Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the cost to Transitional Council in Benghazi in respect of (a) his Department was of the provision of ministerial cars provision of currency and (b) other matters. [62805] in each financial year between 2000-01 and 2010-11; how many (a) cars for the exclusive use of Ministers Alistair Burt: The UK led the process of designing and (b) ministerial car journeys were paid for by his and setting up the Temporary Financial Mechanism Department in each such year; what the average cost to (TFM) to provide financial support on a transitional his Department of a ministerial car journey was in each basis through the Contact Group. The TFM is now such year; and what steps his Department has taken to operational and funds are flowing through it. reduce the cost of ministerial cars since his appointment. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is also providing [62987] the National Transitional Council with a range of other Mr Bellingham: Written ministerial statements disclosing support, including equipment to help improve their the cost of ministerial official cars provided by Government capability to protect civilians. Car and Despatch Agency (GCDA) have been made Mongolia each year from July 2007 and provide information for financial years from 2005-06. The Secretary of State Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), made the any plans to visit Mongolia. [63469] most recent statement on 28 October 2010, Official Report, column 23WS, relating to the period 1 April Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and 2009 to 31 March 2010. Costs for GCDA in 2010-11 Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member incurred by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) has not yet finalised (FCO) will be published in due course. his travel plans for the next year. Since October 2010 FCO Ministers have used vehicles The Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth provided by FCO Services wherever possible. The total Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane amount paid to FCO Services between 1 October 2010 (Mr Browne) visited Ulaanbaatar from 29-31 May. He and 31 March 2011 for this service which relates specifically held productive discussions with the Deputy Prime to ministerial usage is £49,251. Minister, the Education Minister, the State Secretary at Additional information on car travel is not held the Ministry for Foreign Affairs and Trade and a range centrally and is available only at disproportionate cost. of British and Mongolian business leaders. Section 10 of the Ministerial Code provides guidance on travel for Ministers and makes clear that Ministers Mongolia: Foreign Relations must ensure that they always make efficient and cost- effective travel arrangements. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment Iraq: Christianity he has made of the state of the UK’s relations with Mongolia. [63468] Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports Alistair Burt: The UK enjoys good relations with he has received on the treatment of Christians in Iraq. Mongolia. Our officials speak regularly on a range of [63478] issues and the armed forces of both our countries 1263W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1264W operate in the International Security Assistance Force Mr Duncan: Anguilla has benefited from several DFID- (ISAF) mission in Afghanistan. The UK has significant funded initiatives over the past few years: The Overseas commercial interests in Mongolia, which we hope to Territories Environment Programme (OTEP) is jointly expand in the coming years. funded and managed by DFID and the FCO and totals £2 million over four years; the Enhancing Capacity for Pakistan: Religious Freedom Adaptation to Climate Change (ECACC) project in the Caribbean, which works with a number of Caribbean governments, including Anguilla, to help them adapt to Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign climate change; an initiative to help Overseas Territories and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has engage in international climate change negotiations. received of the ability of each religious community in This allowed Anguilla to have a stronger engagement in Pakistan to (a) exercise its faith, (b) observe its (i) the development of a UK Government position in the holidays and (ii) weekly day of rest and (c) administer United Nations Framework Convention for Climate its internal affairs; and if he will make a statement. Change Conference of Parties at Mexico in December [63111] 2010. Alistair Burt: There are many civil society groups Each of these projects has promoted environmental who report on the rights of religious minority groups. awareness in Anguilla. They have helped to build We engage regularly with them on these issues, and their understanding amongst Anguilla’s population of the reports are assessed along with other information to value of a sound environment to underpin economic influence how we address our efforts in this area. Reports growth. continue to suggest that minority groups in some areas Departmental Billing in Pakistan discrimination in the practice of their religion. We are concerned about the human rights situation Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for in Pakistan, including treatment of minority religious International Development what proportion of invoices groups. We call on the Government of Pakistan to from small and medium-sized businesses were paid by uphold the fundamental rights of all Pakistanis, regardless his Department within five working days of receipt in of their faith or ethnicity. We engage regularly with the last 12 months for which figures are available. both the Ministry for Inter-faith Harmony and Minority [63560] Affairs, and with the Ministry of Human rights. During my visit to Pakistan in May 2011,1 met with Mr Duncan: The Department for International members of the Government sponsored Interfaith Council Development (DFID) does not hold payment performance in Pakistan. I also recently met with Paul Bhatti, Pakistan’s information specifically relating to small and medium-sized Special Advisor for Religious Minorities, at a seminar businesses. at Wilton Park on religious freedom. Engagement at both the bilateral and the multilateral (EU) level helps Departmental Freedom of Information to ensure that the Government of Pakistan are aware of the importance with which we hold these issues. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how many requests under Western Sahara: Politics and Government the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 his Department received from (a) hon. Members from Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign each political party and (b) members of the public in and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has each year since the Act’s entry into force. [63580] made of the proposed Moroccan autonomy plan; and whether it provides for self-determination for Western Mr Duncan: The Ministry of Justice publishes quarterly and annual statistics on the total number of Freedom of Sahara. [63657] Information requests received by central Government Alistair Burt: The UK supports the UN Secretary- Departments on its website at: General and his Personal Envoy, Christopher Ross, in http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/foi/ their efforts to resolve the dispute in Western Sahara implementation.htm and to find a negotiated political settlement, providing The Freedom of Information (FOI) Act 2000 requires for the self-determination of the people of Western public authorities to treat each FOI request entirely on Sahara. As set out in Security Council Resolution 1871, its own merits and in a manner that is both purpose and we regard the Moroccan Autonomy Plan as a serious applicant blind. The Department for International and credible contribution to those efforts. Development (DFID) does not, therefore, analyse information by type of applicant. Developing Countries: Family Planning INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much funding his Anguilla: Environment Protection Department plans to allocate to (a) the United Nations Population Fund, (b) Marie Stopes International and Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for (c) the International Planned Parenthood Federation International Development what recent assistance his in the comprehensive spending review period; whether Department has provided to promote environmental his Department places restrictions on the use of such awareness in Anguilla. [63465] funds; and if he will make a statement. [63674] 1265W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1266W

Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Development (DFID) will provide up to £80 million to STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) in core funding over the 2011-14 period. Core funding for the Complaints first two years is set at £20 million per annum. Funding for the following two years will be contingent on an Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, assessment of UNFPA’s progress in implementing priority representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent reforms. There are no other conditionalities on the use Parliamentary Standards Authority, what the rationale of the core funding. is for the four digit reference numbering system used DFID will provide £8.6 million to the International to record complaints registered with the Independent Planned Parenthood Federation (IPPF) over the 2011-13 Parliamentary Standards Authority Compliance Officer. period. This funding can be used flexibly by IPPF as [62583] long as they are able to meet the objectives and measurable performance indicators that have been agreed by DFID. Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls We are in the late stages of negotiating a Programme within the responsibility of the Compliance Officer for Partnership Arrangement (PPA) with Marie Stopes IPSA, who is statutorily independent of IPSA’s executive International. This should be finalised in late July or branch. I have asked him to reply. early August. Letter from Luke March, dated June 2011: As the Compliance Officer for the Independent Parliamentary Developing Countries: Health Services Standards Authority I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what the rationale is for the four digit reference Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for numbering system used to record complaints registered with the International Development what steps he is taking in Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority Compliance Officer. preparation for the special UN meeting on health workers The four digit numbering system is a method of allocating a in September 2011. [63682] unique reference number to identify individual cases.

Mr Duncan: The Secretary of State has received an Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, invitation to participate in an event on health workers representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent organised by Save the Children and others on 20 September Parliamentary Standards Authority, what the reasons in the margins of the United Nations General Assembly were for the time taken by the Independent Parliamentary (UNGA). The Department for International Development Standards Authority Compliance Officer to investigate (DFID) fully recognises the central importance of health complaint 3058, lodged on 21 December 2010. [62584] workers in accelerating progress towards our health goals. Better access to health services in all countries Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls depends on there being skilled and motivated health within the responsibility of the Compliance Officer for workers, in the right place at the right time. Preparations IPSA, who is statutorily independent of IPSA’s executive are under way across Her Majesty’s Government (HMG), branch. I have asked him to reply. including within DFID, on policy priorities and objectives, Letter from Luke March, dated June 2011: as well as plans for ministerial attendance, over the week of UNGA in September. As the Compliance Officer for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Developing Countries: Primary Education Question asking what the reasons were for the time taken by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority Compliance Officer to investigate complaint 3058 lodged on 21 December 2010. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps his Department By virtue of the powers conferred by the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 (CRAG), there is a legal requirement is taking to support international efforts to increase the for the Compliance Officer to be in office in order to conduct number of girls in primary education in developing investigations and reviews. There was no statutory Compliance countries; and if he will assess the merits of making this Officer in post between 10 November 2010 and the appointment issue one of his Department’s performance indicators. of the permanent Compliance Officer on 31 March 2011. [63827] Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Government are placing representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent girls and women at the centre of our aid programme. Parliamentary Standards Authority, if the Independent All Department for International Development (DFID) Parliamentary Standards Authority will estimate the education programmes will have a focus on girls and costs of conducting an investigation into complaint young women. We are working with existing and new 3058 lodged with the Independent Parliamentary Standards development partners to combine general support to Authority Compliance Officer. [62585] education systems with targeted interventions to address girls’ drop out rates and support their transition to Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls lower secondary schooling. Following a comprehensive within the responsibility of the Compliance Officer for review of all UK aid programmes the Government plan IPSA, who is statutorily independent of IPSA’s executive to support at least 9 million children in primary school, branch. I have asked him to reply. over half of whom will be girls, and 2 million children Letter from Luke March, dated June 2011: in secondary school by 2014. As the Compliance Officer for the Independent Parliamentary DFID will track completion of a full cycle of primary Standards Authority I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary education (for girls and for boys) as a key indicator in Question asking if he will estimate the cost of conducting an each of our partner countries where we have education investigation into complaint 3058 lodged with the Independent programmes. Parliamentary Standards Authority Compliance Officer. 1267W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1268W

The Compliance Officer is as yet unable to determine the cost The forthcoming CCS Roadmap, due to be published of the investigation which began on 13 April 2011. in the autumn, will set out further information regarding progress so far and future aims for the development of Members: Complaints CCS. There is also a statutory requirement under the Energy Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, Act 2010 for the Government to report on progress in representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent decarbonising the GB electricity system and on the Parliamentary Standards Authority, on what date the development and use of CCS. The first reporting period Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA) ends in 2011, with further periods running on a three-year compliance office commenced operations; how many basis starting in 2012. The first of these reports will be staff are engaged to work in the office; what the (a) job published in due course. title and (b) salary is of each post in that office; and what estimate IPSA has made of the annual cost of Fukushima operating the office. [61810]

Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy within the responsibility of the Compliance Officer for and Climate Change pursuant to the written ministerial IPSA, who is statutorily independent of IPSA’s executive statement of 21 June 2011, Official Report, column 5WS, branch. I have asked him to reply. on Fukushima (Interim Report), whether he plans to Letter from Luke March, dated June 2011: involve (a) nuclear licensed site stakeholder groups and (b) local non-governmental organisations in the review As the Compliance Officer for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary of emergency planning arrangements; and whether he Question asking on what date the Independent Parliamentary plans to publish in full the final report of the review. Standards Authority Compliance Office (IPSA) commenced [63372] operations; how many staff are engaged to work in the office; what the (a) job title and (b) salary is of each post in that office; Charles Hendry: Local non-governmental organisations and what estimate IPSA has made of the annual cost of operating have the opportunity to engage on local nuclear emergency the office. arrangements through nuclear licensed site stakeholder The interim Compliance Officer was appointed on 10 May groups. Local issues may be represented by local authority 2010 to establish the Office and to develop policies and procedures. representatives involved in the review. The first Compliance Officer appointed under the statute took office on 31 March 2011; on a salary of £43,000 for three days a The conclusions of the review of arrangements will week. be reflected in updated guidance which is publicly available The office of the Compliance Officer employs two full time at: members of staff. http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_energy/ (a) The Investigations Manager, salary scale £46,000 - £51,000; nuclear/safety_and_sec/emergency_plan/neplg/guidance/ (b) Investigations Officer, salary scale £23,000 - £28,000. guidance.aspx For the year to 31 March 2011, the cost of operating the Compliance Office was £307,000 including salaries and overheads. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 21 June 2011, Official Report, column 5WS, on Fukushima (Interim Report), what resources will be ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE provided to support the planned review by the Nuclear Emergency Planning Liaison Group of the UK’s national Carbon Sequestration nuclear emergency arrangements; what completion deadline he has given for the report; and whether he plans to publish the full report of the review. [63373] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment Charles Hendry: The Nuclear Emergency Planning he has made of the UK’s performance in developing Liaison Group’s planned review of the UK’s national carbon capture and storage. [63314] nuclear emergency arrangements will be supported by the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s dedicated Charles Hendry: The UK remains at the forefront of Civil Nuclear Emergency Planning Team. The conclusions global activity for the development of carbon capture of the review of arrangements will be reflected in guidance and storage (CCS). The allocation last year of up to £1 which will be updated before the chief inspector’s final billion for the capital costs of the first CCS demonstration report in the autumn. The guidance is publicly available project is the largest confirmed public funding commitment at: to a single commercial-scale CCS project in the world. http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_energy/ The Government have also committed to providing nuclear/safety_and_sec/emergency_plan/neplg/guidance/ public sector investment for a further three commercial-scale guidance.aspx CCS projects and made significant investments in a number of smaller scale projects; for example, £6.3 Public Sector: Energy million in the Ferrybridge Carbon Capture 100+ pilot project and £1.6 million in the Oxyfuel/Oxycoal 2 pilot in Renfrew.This investment in demonstrating the technology Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for is underpinned by our proposed energy market reforms, Energy and Climate Change whether he plans a national designed to drive commercial investment in new low-carbon roll-out of the Re:Fit public sector energy efficiency generation including CCS. retrofit programme. [62744] 1269W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1270W

Gregory Barker: Energy efficiency in the public sector via the annual report on social care provision, “Community is important in order to reduce carbon emissions and to Care Statistics: Social Services Activity Report, England”, save money spent on energy bills. Re:Fit is an effective which is published in April each year by the NHS model, and is proving to be a success in London. I Information Centre for Health and Social Care. would encourage other regions and local authorities to Further information is available on the Information learn from the Greater London Authority experience in Centre website at: order to improve their own energy efficiency. http://www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and-data-collections/social- care/adult-social-care-information/community-care-statistics- social-services-activity-england-2009-10-further-release

HEALTH Colorectal Cancer: Screening Abortion: Counselling Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many cases of bowel cancer were detected Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health as a result of the bowel cancer screening programme in (1) under which provisions of the Abortion Act 1967, as each year since its inception; and what estimate he has amended by the Human Fertilisation Act 1990, he made of the number of additional cases which would proposes to sever the financial links between abortion have been detected if the age limit for screening had providers and counselling; for what reasons these provisions been reduced to 50. [63538] have never previously been invoked; what criteria will be used to determine the independent character of Paul Burstow: The number of cancers detected by the counselling; and if he will make a statement; [63602] NHS bowel cancer screening programme in each year (2) what (a) regulations and (b) amendable legislative since its inception has been provided in the following proposals he plans to lay before the House to alter the table. arrangements governing abortion counselling; what timetable he has set for the laying of such provisions; if Number of cancers detected he will publish each item of correspondence with hon. Members relating to this issue; and if he will make a 2006 40 2007 585 statement. [63675] 2008 1,701 Paul Burstow: We are drawing up proposals to enable 2009 2,380 all women who are seeking an abortion to be offered 2010 3,264 access to independent counselling. The current 2011 (to 31 May) 1,633 arrangements for counselling related to abortion services No estimate has been made of the number of additional can be varied within the existing statutory framework cases that would have been detected if the age limit for for the commissioning of such services. The Health and screening were reduced to 50. The original programme Social Care Bill 2011, now before Parliament, expands only invited people in their 60s because the risk of that framework. These proposals would not affect any bowel cancer increases with age, with over 80% of of the current provisions of the 1967 Abortion Act. bowel cancers arising in people who are 60 or over. We would want the counselling to be provided by In the pilot, over three times more cancers were appropriately qualified individuals. Independent counselling detected in people aged over 60 than under 60, and will focus on risks to health posed by both the abortion people in their 60s were most likely to complete a procedure and continuing with the pregnancy enabling testing kit. a woman to make a decision that would benefit her overall health and wellbeing. ‘Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer’, published on 12 January 2011, sets out how we have committed to We will seek the permission of hon. Members to invest £60 million between 2011 and 2014 to incorporate publish correspondence on this issue. flexible sigmoidoscopy (FS) into the NHS bowel screening Care Homes programme. Men and women from age 55 will be invited for a once only bowel scope prior to commencing faecal occult blood testing from age 60, as now. Experts estimate Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for FS will save around 3,000 lives every year. Health (1) what steps his Department is taking to monitor changes in the level of care home fees in Day Care England; [62958] (2) what steps his Department is taking to monitor Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for changes in the number of placements available in care Health what steps his Department is taking to monitor homes in England. [62960] changes in the number of day care placements in local authorities. [63448] Paul Burstow: There has been no change in the Department’s long standing policy of not collecting Paul Burstow: Changes in the numbers of people data on the levels of care home fees in England. receiving day care funded either wholly or partly by The Care Quality Commission, as regulator of health local authorities in England are monitored via the and adult social care services, registers all care and annual report on social care provision, ″Community nursing homes and numbers of available places in England. Care Statistics: Social Services Activity Report, England″, The numbers of care home placements arranged or which is published in April each year by the NHS funded by local authorities in England are monitored Information Centre for health and social care. 1271W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1272W

Further information is available on the Information Total number of FOI requests received by the Department Centre website at: Total number of FOI requests received by the Department of www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and-data-collections/social-care/ Year (January to December) Health adult-social-care-information/community-care-statistics- social-services-activity-england-2009-10-further-release 2005 1,203 2006 1,411 2007 1,286 Departmental Billing 2008 1,349 2009 1,897 Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2010 2,023 what proportion of invoices from small and medium-sized businesses were paid by his Department within five Direct Payments working days of receipt in the last 12 months for which figures are available. [63562] Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance his Department provides to local Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not keep authorities on the tendering of care home contracts to separate statistics in relation to small and medium-sized preferred providers where those service users affected businesses, but aims to pay all invoices within five days wish to maintain provision with their existing provider regardless of the size of the supplier. Performance via the use of direct payments. [63644] against that target is published on the Department’s website as required by Cabinet Office. Paul Burstow: The regulations and guidance on direct www.dh.gov.uk/en/Aboutus/HowDHworks/ payments prevent them from being used for care home Servicestandardsandcommitments/DH_117222 placements. In the period 1 June 2010 to 31 May 2011 the Department Where a person needs to go into residential care, the paid 92.54% of all valid invoices received at our nominated local authority should arrange care for them in a care address within five days of receipt. home of their choice. In some cases, councils will have a list of preferred providers. The Choice of Accommodation Directions 1992 ensure that people are given a genuine Departmental Freedom of Information choice when deciding which care home to live in. The Department issued revised guidance on the directions Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health on 14 October 2004. how many requests under the provisions of the Freedom If an individual in the community needs respite care of Information Act 2000 his Department received from up to four weeks, in a care home, they can use a direct (a) hon. Members from each political party and (b) payment to purchase their care. members of the public in each year since the Act’s entry into force. [63573] Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent assessment he has made of take-up Mr Simon Burns: The information on the number of of the direct payment method of providing social care. Freedom of Information requests from hon. Members [63645] by each political party is shown in the following table: Paul Burstow: The “Vision for Adult Social Care: Freedom of information (FOI) requests from hon. Members by Capable Communities and Active Citizens”, a copy of political party which has already been placed in the Library, sets the Liberal Year (January Conservative Democrat context for the future direction of adult social care in to December) party Labour party party England. It states that councils should provide personal budgets, preferably as a direct payment, for everyone 2005 3 1 5 eligible, by 2013. 2006 23 0 6 The total number of people receiving self directed 2007 8 3 19 support (both direct payments and personal budgets) in 2008 5 1 12 2009-10 was 217,000. Of these there were 107,000 users 2009 4 1 8 receiving direct payments, a 24% increase over the previous 2010 3 33 3 year. In addition, there were 48,000 carers receiving direct payments, a 56% increase over the previous year. These figures may not represent all FOI requests In total, there are 155,000 people in receipt of direct from hon. Members as we only record those that are payments. clearly stated as being from an hon. Member. This is based on the most recent data published by The Department does not collect information on the the NHS Information Centre for health and social care number of requests from members of the public. In in April 2011. accordance with the Freedom of Information Act, all requests are dealt with equitably and the Department’s Health Services: Learning Disability correspondence database does not categorise FOI questions using the term ‘members of the public’. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for However, the total number of requests received by Health with reference to page 22, paragraph 3.59 of the the Department each year since the FOI Act 2000 came Government’s response to the NHS Future Forum into force is shown in the following table: Report, what guidance he proposes to provide on the 1273W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1274W requirements for dedicated professional and clinical 5,479 reports of suspected side effects up to 29 June leadership with regard to services for people with 2011 (this includes reports in which the brand of HPV learning disabilities. [63619] vaccine was not specified). This follows administration of more than five million doses of Cervarix across the Mr Simon Burns: Subject to the passage of the Health United Kingdom to date. and Social Care Bill, clinical commissioning groups will Yellow Card reports relate to ‘suspicions’ that a side take on responsibility for commissioning the majority effect may have occurred. They may relate to true side of national health service healthcare services. The effects, or they may be due to coincidental illness. As Government’s response to the NHS Future Forum Report reports are not necessarily proof that a vaccine or makes clear that it will strengthen existing duties on medicine was a cause of the reported illness, the data clinical commissioning groups to secure professional cannot be used to estimate the true frequency of side advice and ensure this advice is from a full range of effects to the vaccine. The frequency of known side health professionals where relevant. Clinical commissioning effects from clinical trials is listed in the available product groups will also receive expert support and advice from information. clinical networks and senates on the design and delivery of services, in order to provide the best care and outcomes As with all vaccines and medicines, the MHRA keeps for patients. the safety of Cervarix under continual review. The benefits of Cervarix vaccine in protecting against cervical Clinical commissioning groups will be supported and cancer far outweigh any known side effects. held to account by a national NHS Commissioning Board. An amendment has been put forward to provide When the Cervarix immunisation programme began for the NHS Commissioning Board to issue guidance to in the UK, the MHRA implemented proactive, real-time commissioning groups on their duty to obtain appropriate safety surveillance. This involved daily review of all professional advice, for example in relation to working suspected side effect reports and an epidemiological with clinical senates and clinical networks. The NHS approach to detection and evaluation of any new safety Commissioning Board will also develop commissioning ‘signals’. This included review of data from other countries guidance to support effective commissioning, and promote using the vaccine. MHRA published weekly updates on consistent national Quality Standards produced by the this surveillance via its website as well as summaries in National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence to the Drug Safety Update bulletin April 2009, October ensure all patients, including those with learning disabilities, 2009 and October 2010: receive high quality services. www.mhra.gov.uk/Safetyinformation/DrugSafetyUpdate/ index.htm Home Care Services After the second year of the immunisation programme, the MHRA sought independent expert advice from the Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for Commission on Human Medicines (CHM) on the safety Health what steps his Department is taking to monitor experience. This followed administration of more than changes in the number of domiciliary care packages 4.5 million doses of vaccine in the UK up to July 2010. offered by local authorities in England. [62959] CHM advised that no serious new risks have been identified in association with Cervarix and the balance Paul Burstow: Changes in the numbers of domiciliary of risks and benefits of the vaccine remains positive. A care packages provided by local authorities in England detailed safety assessment was published on the MHRA are monitored via the annual report on social care website in October 2010 at: provision, “Community Care Statistics: Social Services www.mhra.gov.uk/HPVvaccine Activity Report, England”, which is published in April each year by the NHS Information Centre for Health As with all vaccines and medicines, the MHRA keeps and Social Care. the safety of Cervarix under continual review. Further information is available on the Information Centre website at: Mental Health Services www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and-data-collections/social-care/ adult-social-care-information/community-care-statistics- social-services-activity-england-2009-10-further-release Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) which professional psychotherapy groups he Human Papilloma Virus: Vaccination has met to discuss provision of psychotherapy in NHS settings; [63684] Mr McFadden: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what assessment he has made of the range of Health (1) what recent estimate his Department has psychological therapies available on the NHS; and if he made of the number of young women who have experienced will assess recent changes in the range of therapies side effects from the Cervarix vaccine; [63461] available; [63685] (2) what research his Department has (a) commissioned (3) what opportunities are provided for mental and (b) evaluated on side effects from the Cervarix health patients to rate the services they have received; vaccine. [63462] [63686] Mr Simon Burns: The Medicines and Healthcare (4) what opportunities he plans to provide for people products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) collects information using talking therapies to rate the services they have on suspected side effects to vaccines and medicines via received; [63687] the Yellow Card Scheme. Since the Cervarix (human (5) what consultation he has carried out on the papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine) immunisation programme provision of psychological therapies in the NHS; and if began in September 2008, the MHRA has received he will make a statement. [63710] 1275W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1276W

Paul Burstow: The Mental Health Strategy Ministerial Prosthetics Advisory Group, of which I am Chair, includes in its membership representatives of the psychological therapy Mrs Mensch: To ask the Secretary of State for Health disciplines. what the terms of reference are of the consultation on It is for the national health service locally to decide the Murrison report on prosthetic services. [63838] how best to meet the needs of its local populations and in doing so they are free to commission a wide range of Mr Simon Burns: The Terms of Reference for the psychotherapeutic services. In addition, the Department Review into NHS Prosthetics Services for military veterans recommends evidence-based, and preferably National are: Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) Gather evidence on the current and future needs of veterans approved, therapies for the treatment of common mental for prosthetics services, and on the provision and cost of health problems. services; Following the provision of the NICE guidance on the The future funding of high specification, evidence-based prosthetics treatment of depression in October 2009, the Improving services within the national health service; Access to Psychological Therapies (IAPT) programme The possible contribution of personal health budgets and the now offers five therapies for the treatment of depression inclusion of this in continuing health care arrangements; at step three of the stepped care model (moderate to How regional variations in service can be minimised; severe). These are: The possibility of designating centres of excellence for NHS prosthetics care; Cognitive behavioural therapy; The effectiveness of the Seriously Injured Leavers Protocol Interpersonal psychotherapy; currently being piloted; Counselling for depression; How the transition from the armed forces’ prosthetics care to Dynamic interpersonal therapy; and the NHS can be improved including liaison between the new army recovery centres, the four rehabilitation centres in England, Couples therapy for depression. Headley Court and the NHS; The IAPT programme regularly consults with An initiative is in development within the NHS medical directorate stakeholders about the development of the programme. to ensure that the NHS deals better with the rehabilitation and The IAPT Programme Board has representatives of recovery needs of the general population. Discussions with both commissioners and service providers from the clinical advisors to the Department of Health team could consider how to link provision for trauma and after care with NHS, voluntary providers, therapists’ professional these initiatives; associations, service users, social care and the Department Longer term implications for the new Defence National for Work and Pensions. Rehabilitation Centre; IAPT services routinely collect patient satisfaction Clarification of responsibilities in the new NHS architecture information. This is collected at the end of assessment, for commissioning prosthetics services for those leaving the mid-treatment and end of treatment using the IAPT armed forces; and Patient Experience Questionnaire. The questionnaire The role of service charities in helping to meet the realistic asks patients to rate services in a number of areas and needs of individuals over and above that which the NHS can also invites patients to make comments on their experience provide. of the service. Ritalin: Children The NHS Choices website also provides the opportunity for patients and service users to provide comments and rate health services. This includes mental health services. Mr McFadden: To ask the Secretary of State for Service users can provide an overall rating of care; Health what research his Department has (a) commissioned specific ratings of issues including cleanliness, dignity and (b) evaluated on the effects of Ritalin and similar and involvement in decisions; and free text comments. drugs on young children. [63460] In addition patient comment providers such as Patient Opinion give patients the opportunity to comment through Mr Simon Burns: Clinical trials submitted by the an independent route if they choose. marketing authorisation holder (MAH) for Ritalin (methylphenidate) were evaluated at the time of licensing to ensure that it met appropriate standards of safety, NHS: Reorganisation quality and efficacy to support its use in the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Since the marketing of Ritalin, the independent scientific Jack Lopresti: To ask the Secretary of State for advisory committee, the Commission on Human Medicines Health what assessment he has made of the effects on (CHM) and the Medicines Healthcare products Regulatory commissioning decisions of the incentives of staff of Agency (MHRA) have kept its safety under close review. health providers who are also members of commissioning As new data have emerged, product information for boards, following the implementation of the provisions prescribers and patients has been updated and advice of the Health and Social Care Bill. [63835] has been issued. In June 2007, the MHRA led a European review of Mr Simon Burns: The Department published the the risks and benefits of Ritalin and sought advice from response to the NHS Future Forum’s report on 21 June the CHM and an expert working group whose membership 2011, which outlined in greater detail arrangements included those with expertise in child and adolescent that will ensure there is independent oversight of key psychiatry. This European review was requested by the governance arrangements, including systems for managing European Commission following concerns over the safety conflicts of interest between commissioners and providers. of methylphenidate, particularly the possible risk of 1277W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1278W cardiovascular disorders (problems affecting the heart taken; how (a) patients and (b) members of the public and blood vessels) and cerebrovascular disorders (problems were selected to sit on the Group; and on what dates it affecting the blood vessels in the brain). has met. [63764] The review considered the available data on efficacy and safety and concluded that the benefits of Mr Simon Burns: To support the proposed changes to methylphenidate-containing medicines continue to outweigh the commissioning of specialised services, NHS Specialised their risks, when used in their approved indication for Services established the Specialised Services Patient and children aged six years or over and adolescents with Public Engagement Steering Group at the beginning of ADHD, as part of a comprehensive treatment programme. the year. The patient representative organisations selected to sit on the group were chosen in partnership with the The conclusions of this review were communicated to Specialised Healthcare Alliance. The Group has met on health care professionals in March 2009 through the 5 May 2011 and 27 May 2011. MHRA’s monthly drug safety bulletin, Drug Safety Update. The product information of all methylphenidate- containing medicines authorised across Europe, including DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER the patient information leaflets, has been updated to Departmental Responsibilities ensure it contains clear, comprehensive information about the effects of methylphenidate and the importance of monitoring children and adolescents throughout Mr Bone: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what their treatment. recent discussions he has had with the Prime Minister Following this, surveillance measures to review the on the arrangements for Government in the event that safety of Ritalin continue. the Prime Minister is incapacitated. [63713] The MAH for Ritalin has been asked to conduct The Deputy Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member studies to further characterise the safety of methylphenidate, to the answer I gave on 17 February 2011, Official particularly the long-term safety. The information from Report, column 923W. the ongoing studies will be evaluated as soon as it becomes available. House of Lords: Reform The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has also published a technology appraisal on Mr Dodds: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what methylphenidate, atomoxetine and dexamfetamine (2006) process he plans to follow to enable the devolved legislatures and are following up with recommendations for the to contribute to consideration of the future of the diagnosis and treatment of ADHD (2008). House of Lords. [63627]

Skin Cancer: Young People Mr Harper: The draft House of Lords Reform Bill extends to the whole of the United Kingdom and addresses matters relating to the Parliament of the Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health United Kingdom which is an “excepted matter” under what steps his Department is taking to increase awareness Schedule 2 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998, and a of skin melanoma among young people. [63678] “reserved matter” under Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998. No relevant powers have been transferred to the Paul Burstow: SunSmart, the national skin cancer National Assembly for Wales or the Welsh Ministers. prevention campaign run by Cancer Research UK, raises awareness amongst the public and professionals We are always willing to hear the views of the devolved of the risks to health from skin cancer, including melanoma. Governments and legislatures through correspondence The SunSmart website or discussions within forums such as the Joint Ministerial Committee. The Joint Committee is take evidence from www.sunsmart.org.uk those in each part of the UK including the devolved provides information and advice on prevention and legislatures. early detection of skin cancer. The primary audience for this year’s campaign is 16 to 24-year-olds. In March, SunSmart also launched a digital campaign entitled ‘Leatha Face’ to raise awareness amongst young BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS people of the skin cancer risks posed by sunbeds. In Business addition, the Department has published guidance on the implementation of the Sunbeds (Regulation) Act 2010, which came into force on 1 April 2011 and aims to Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, prevent young people under 18 from being allowed to Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is use sunbeds. taking to increase (a) levels of net capital investment in small and medium-sized businesses, (b) the proportion of managers of small and medium-sized businesses Specialised Services Patient and Public Engagement carrying out management or leadership training and Steering Group (c) the use of ICT by small and medium-sized businesses. [61999] Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health on whose instruction the Specialised Services Patient Mr Prisk: The Government have demonstrated their and Public Engagement Steering Group was established; commitment to increasing the level of net capital investment on what date the decision to establish the Group was in small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) by extending 1279W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1280W our commitment to the Enterprise Finance Guarantee with fewer than 10 employees) and start-ups would be to unlock up to £2 billion of additional lending to exempt from all new domestic regulation for three years. SMEs over the course of the Parliament, working with We also decided not to extend the Right to Request the banks to establish the Business Growth Fund in Time to Train to SMEs, potentially saving SMEs order to secure £2.5 billion of finance for growing small approximately £350 million and not to bring forward and medium firms, and securing an agreement with five the Dual Discrimination provision, saving business up banks on the Merlin commitment of £76 billion of to £3 million per year. gross new lending to small and medium sized enterprises Last month, the Prime Minister launched the Red in 2011. Among other measures, Government have also Tape Challenge website: extended its commitment to the Enterprise Capital Fund www.redtapechallenge.cabinetoffice.gov.uk programme by £200 million over the Parliament, and have announced changes to the Enterprise Investment which asks the public and businesses to identify regulations Scheme that incentivise equity investment in small firms. that need to be amended or removed. Every few weeks Government have also approved, subject to due diligence, regulations affecting one specific sector or industry will a bid to the Regional Growth Fund for a new £50 million be published on the website. There is also the opportunity business angel co-investment fund. to comment on cross-cutting areas of regulation, such as employment law. In “Skills for Sustainable Growth” published in November 2010, we emphasised the importance of I believe that businesses in the hon. Member’s improving leadership and management skills and set constituency will feel the benefit of these policies in the out our intention to work with employers, employer months and years ahead, as our ambitious reducing bodies, the Trades Union Congress, Advisory, Conciliation regulation agenda makes a positive difference to the and Arbitration Service, and others to develop a framework UK’s business environment. for improving leadership and management skills to encourage high performance working and better use of Care Homes: Private Sector skills. We are continuing to provide the SME Leadership and Management Programme with priority for support Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for being given to those SMEs that demonstrate a potential Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the oral for growth, and are looking closely at how best this answer of 9 June 2011, Official Report, column 277, programme can be integrated or aligned with Business what steps he is planning to take to review the business Coaching for Growth from January 2012. model of companies that provide public services in the Government provide information and advice to SMEs care home sector. [60942] on the use of Information and communication technologies through Mr Prisk: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Official Report, www.businesslink.gov.uk/ gave on 4 July 2011, column 1080W, to the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith). which is the Government’s online information (ICT) and advice channel to all businesses. The website includes Debt Managers Standards Association information on a whole range of issues including detailed guidance on the use of ICT for SMEs. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Businesses: Beckenham Innovation and Skills what recent progress has been made by the Office of Fair Trading in its joint working Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, with the Debt Managers Standards Association on Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to reduce standards in the debt management industry. [64018] the burden of regulation on small and medium-sized enterprises in Beckenham. [61135] Mr Davey: The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) continues to work closely with the Debt Management Standards Mr Prisk: This Government have set out a clear Association (DEMSA) as it seeks to improve standards aim—to leave office having reduced the overall burden in the debt management industry.Such industry engagement of regulation. is an important and ongoing part of the OFT’s action plan announced following the outcome of its Compliance In September, the Government introduced the ‘One-in, Review published in September 2010. One-out rule’ for new regulation so a new regulatory burden cannot be introduced without identifying another DEMSA has an OFT Approved Code which means to be removed first. In December, we introduced a new that members are committed to providing high standards approach to transposing EU directives, to end ‘gold of customer service and ensuring consumer rights are plating’ and ensure they are not transposed in such a protected. way that they disadvantage UK businesses relative to Liaison between DEMSA and OFT is ongoing and their EU competitors. In March we introduced sunset takes the form of, for instance, engagement and discussion clauses in new regulations which impose a cost on on the OFT’s recently revised draft Debt Management businesses, to ensure they remain relevant and are fit-for- Guidance or a more specific exchange of information in purpose. relation to a particular member. However, we recognise that badly-designed regulation and red tape can have a particularly damaging effect on Departmental Billing our smallest businesses. In ‘The Plan for Growth’, published alongside the Budget 2011, as part of a package of Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, measures to improve the UK’s regulatory environment, Innovation and Skills what proportion of invoices from the Government announced that micro-businesses (those small and medium-sized businesses were paid by his 1281W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1282W

Department within five working days of receipt in the what the (a) reasons for and (b) savings arising from last 12 months for which figures are available. [63572] each such cessation were. [63669]

Mr Davey: In May 2010 a new cross Government Mr Davey: The Department for Business, Innovation target was introduced that required Departments to pay and Skills has not ceased any national or official statistical at least 80% of valid invoices within five working days. data collection in the last year. The previous target was payment within 10 working days. Over the last 12 months (July 2010 to June 2011 Departmental Visits Abroad inclusive), the Department has exceeded the 80% target and has paid 95.3% of valid invoices within five working Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for days of receipt. Business, Innovation and Skills how many overseas For information, the Department publishes its monthly visits to what destinations he plans to make in an payment performance against the five working day target official capacity in the next 12 months. [62647] and this can be found at: http://www.bis.gov.uk/about/procurement/prompt-payment/ Mr Davey: The Secretary of State for Business, bis-payment-performance Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member The Department does not currently record and publish for Twickenham (Vince Cable), intends to visit Turkey, information about the size of suppliers as this does not Singapore, Indonesia and Vietnam in the coming months. fully reflect the number and size of businesses engaged Directors in supplying goods and services. We do not discriminate by size of business because many SMEs can be found within larger supply chains. Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people were disqualified Departmental Freedom of Information from being a director of a company following a recommendation by the Serious Organised Crime Agency in each year since 2006. [63721] Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many requests under the Mr Davey: No statistics are maintained of company provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 his director disqualifications that have Serious Organised Department received from (a) hon. Members from Crime Agency (SOCA) involvement as BIS does not each political party and (b) members of the public in receive specific recommendations from SOCA in respect each year since the Act’s entry into force. [63588] of director disqualifications. The majority of director disqualifications arise after Mr Davey: The Department for Business, Innovation investigation by the Insolvency Service (an executive and Skills (BIS) was created on 5 June 2009 by merging agency of BIS) of a company that has entered formal the former Department for Business, Enterprise and insolvency. The Company Directors Disqualification Regulatory Reform (BERR) and the Department for Act 1986 is not restricted to issues arising from insolvencies Innovation Universities and Skills (DIUS). as, for example, section 2 of the Act provides for (a) The number of requests BIS has received since its disqualification on the conviction of an indictable offence. creation from hon. Members: Export Development Credits: Colombia Number

20091 10 Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 2010 44 Innovation and Skills how he will ensure that export 20112 13 development credits are not made available to businesses 1 From 5 June - 31 December 2009. which require the use of land in Colombia until a 2 From 1 January - 31 March 2011. national land register has been established which records These figures may not represent all Freedom of the land titles of peasant farmers, Afro-Colombians Information requests from MP’s as we may only record and indigenous peoples. [64097] those that are clearly stated as being from an MP.We do not record the political party of the MP. Mr Davey: The Export Credits Guarantee Department (ECGD) has not received any applications for support (b) The number of requests BIS has received from in connection with exports to Colombia. If ECGD was members of the public since its creation: approached, its support would be provided in accordance with the OECD “Revised Council Recommendation on Number Common Approaches on the Environment and Officially 20091 190 Supported Export Credits” (the Common Approaches). 2010 481 Applications for ECGD support that fall within the 20112 122 ambit of the Common Approaches are screened by 1 From 5 June - 31 December 2009. ECGD for potential environmental, social and human 2 From 1 January - 31 March 2011. rights impacts, including the impacts of land acquisition and involuntary resettlement. Under the Common Departmental Statistics Approaches, relevant projects are required to meet international standards, usually those of the World Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Bank Group. This includes the International Finance Business, Innovation and Skills what statistical data his Corporation’s Performance Standard 5, which covers Department have ceased to collect in the last year; and land acquisition and involuntary resettlement issues. 1283W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1284W

ECGD has published guidance on its website on the Armed Forces: Bexley processes and factors in ECGD’s consideration of applications. This guidance explains the applicability of Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence the Common Approaches to the provision of its support how many service personnel resident in the London for export contracts. borough of Bexley received council tax relief during deployment on specified operations overseas in each of Higher Education: Finance the last three years. [63889]

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Robathan: This information is not held in the Innovation and Skills how many higher education format requested. institutions were deemed to be at risk by the Higher Education Funding Council for England in the most Armed Forces: Germany recent period for which information is available; and if he will make a statement. [64083] Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent estimate he has made of the cost Mr Willetts [holding answer 5 July 2011]: The Higher to his Department of the draw-down of troops from Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) is Germany. [63650] responsible for monitoring the financial health of the Higher Education institutions and for providing advice Nick Harvey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I and support where appropriate. To protect the viability gave on 27 October 2010, Official Report, column 369W. of institutions at risk, and with the agreement of the Information Commissioner, HEFCE releases information Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for on institutions assessed to be at higher risk three years Defence what arrangements he plans to put in place to after the assessment was made. The most recent available implement the draw-down of troops from Germany. information relates to November 2007, when there were [63652] six institutions in HEFCE’s ‘at higher risk’ category. The Government accepts the Public Accounts Committee’s Nick Harvey: It is part of the routine business of recent recommendation that this approach should be Headquarters Land Forces (HQ LF) to plan and manage reviewed and will do this in the context of its forthcoming unit moves. For example, in September 2010 the Army consultation on the future role of HEFCE. completed the move of HQ Allied Rapid Reaction Corps (ARRC) and its supporting elements from the Manufacturing Industry Rhine Garrison to Innsworth, Gloucestershire. This move and other scheduled activities were planned before Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for we completed the Strategic Defence and Security Review. Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of Consequently, there is already a team in HQ LF which machine tools procured by the Advanced Manufacturing is carrying out the necessary work. Once we have concluded Research Centre were manufactured in the UK. [63441] the basing study, this team will work with the Defence Infrastructure Organisation, UK Support Command Mr Prisk: AMRC is an independent research (Germany) and the German authorities to develop and organisation owned by the university of Sheffield. It is implement the larger draw-down plan. only part funded by Government. Procurement decisions are a matter for the organisation itself, and can only be Armed Forces: Housing answered through direct correspondence with the centre or the university. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what service personnel accommodation his Department provides by (a) type and (b) grade in each local authority area. [63864] DEFENCE Mr Robathan: A table showing the number of service Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations family accommodation (SFA) properties in the UK, broken down by county, SFA type and standard for Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence condition, as at 30 June 2011 will be placed in the pursuant to the answer of 27 April 2011, Official Report, Library of the House. column 415W,on Afghanistan: peacekeeping operations, Currently 96% of UK SFA is in good condition, and what estimate he has made of the cost per flying hour of this includes an assessment of the stock in Northern using (a) Tornado and (b) Harrier aircraft for operations Ireland. in (i) Afghanistan and (ii) other theatres. [63270] The number of single living accommodation bed spaces broken down by local authority area is not held. Nick Harvey [holding answer 4 July 2011]: Following reductions to the Harrier Force in 2009 by the previous Armed Forces: Private Education Government, the Harrier was no longer sufficient in size to meet our requirement in Afghanistan. Hence Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for following the strategic defence and security review the Defence how many service personnel of each rank Harrier force is no longer in service. based at each location received the continuity education The marginal costs per flying hour of Tornado GR4 allowance (CEA) in each financial year since 2000-01; is £5,000 per hour. These are the direct running costs, and how much was paid to service personnel of each principally made up of consumables such as fuel. rank in CEA in each such year. [63358] 1285W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1286W

Nick Harvey [holding answer 4 July 2011]: The purpose Amount of CEA paid by rank (£ million) of continuity of education allowance (CEA) is to allow Financial year the children of service personnel to achieve a stable Army rank education against a background of parental postings or equivalent 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 both at home, and overseas. Lieutenant/ 0.2 0.2 0.2 0.1 Second The amount of CEA paid to each rank from financial lieutenant year 2007-08 onwards can be found in the following Captain 10.9 11.6 11.8 12.1 tables. Prior to the implementation of the joint personnel Major 18.8 19.3 19.9 20.4 administration system (JPA), this information was held Lieutenant 23.6 24.9 25.3 25.8 on single service legacy systems and could be provided colonel only at disproportionate cost. Colonel 9.5 9.8 10.6 11.0 I announced to the House on 16 December 2010, Brigadier 3.5 3.7 3.6 3.6 Official Report, column 116W,changes to the regulations Major general 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 governing CEA that took effect from 1 April 2011. Lieutenant 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1 These changes altered the rules regarding involuntary general separated service, transfer to day schooling, the aggregation General 0.1 — 0.1 0.1 of claims and the formal review of claims. Private 0.4 0.7 0.9 1.1 Lance 0.5 0.6 0.7 1.0 In addition, a dedicated team is being established to corporal ensure probity and compliance of future claims and a Corporal 4.6 5.1 5.0 5.3 review of CEA is being conducted to ensure this expenditure Sergeant 9.2 9.8 10.2 10.9 is fully justified. Staff sergeant 10.3 10.9 10.7 10.4 Warrant 5.3 6.4 7.2 7.6 I will write to the right hon. Member about the officer 2 number of service personnel of each rank by location Warrant 4.0 4.3 4.4 4.6 receiving CEA and a copy will be placed in the Library officer 1 of the House. Cost of CEA 101.8 108.1 111.3 114.9 claims Number of personnel in receipt of CEA Cost of Tax 60.3 64.7 65.6 2— Financial year andNIfor 1 Army Rank CEA or equivalent 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total cost of 162.2 172.8 176.9 2— CEA to the Lieutenant/ 10 10 10 10 MOD Second 1 Tax and National Insurance on CEA paid to HMRC by the MOD lieutenant on behalf of the individual. 2 Not yet available Captain 620 610 640 650 Major 1,070 1,040 1,000 1,020 Armoured Fighting Vehicles Lieutenant 1,140 1,150 1,120 1,120 colonel Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Colonel 470 480 480 460 Defence (1) whether (a) Mastiff, (b) Ridgback, (c) Brigadier 180 160 160 160 Warrior, (d) Panther, (e) Coyote, (f) Husky, (g) Warthog, Major general 40 40 40 40 (h) Wolfhound and (i) Jackal vehicles can be transported Lieutenant 10 10 10 1— on An-124 aircraft leased under the NATO Strategic general Airlift Interim Solution; [63065] General 1— 2— 1— 1— (2) how many (a) Mastiff, (b) Ridgback, (c) Warrior, Private40407080(d) Panther, (e) Coyote, (f) Husky, (g) Warthog, (h) Wolfhound and (i) Jackal vehicles may be transported Lance 40 40 50 80 on (i) An-124, (ii) C-17 and (iii) C-130 aircraft per corporal flight. [63066] Corporal 360 370 360 380 Sergeant 660 640 680 690 Peter Luff: Mastiff, Ridgback, Warrior, Panther, Coyote, Staff sergeant 720 710 680 660 Husky, Warthog, Wolfhound and Jackal vehicles can be transported on chartered Antonov AN-124 and the Warrant 360 400 470 480 officer 2 RAF C17 aircraft. However, Mastiff, Ridgback, Warrior, Warthog and Wolfhound cannot be transported on the Warrant 290 280 260 290 RAF C130K and C130J variants of the Hercules aircraft officer 1 as their physical dimensions exceed cargo hold limitations. Grand total 6,010 5,990 6,020 6,090 The following table provides details of the total number 1 Represents five or fewer. of each vehicle type that can be carried on a single 2 Represents zero. Notes: aircraft. Rounding has been applied to all figures. When rounding to the nearest 10, numbers ending in five have been rounded to the nearest Vehicle type AN-124 C-17 C-130K C-130J multiple of 20 to prevent systematic bias. Totals have been rounded separately and therefore may not equal the sum of their rounded Mastiff 3 2 1— 1— parts. Ridgback 4 2 1— 1— 1287W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1288W

Mr Robathan: Cash equivalent transfer values for Vehicle type AN-124 C-17 C-130K C-130J civil servants on the Defence Board are shown in the Warrior 2 1 1— 1— remuneration report of the Department’s annual resource Panther 10 5 1 1 accounts. Transfer values for the Department’s other Coyote 6 3 1 1 current civil servants or for any former civil servants are Husky 6 2 1 1 not routinely calculated, and these figures could be Warthog 4 1 1— 1— provided only at disproportionate cost. Wolfhound 3 2 1— 1— Jackal 11 5 1 1 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Not transported. Defence what the average cash equivalent transfer value is of the pension of a civil servant in his Department at Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence retirement. [63473] (1) what recent progress his Department has made on the Future Rapid Effect System Utility Vehicle programme; Mr Robathan: Cash equivalent transfer values for and if he will make a statement; [63740] civil servants on the Defence Board are shown in the remuneration report of the Department’s annual resource (2) what recent estimate he has made of the total cost accounts. Transfer values for the Department’s other of the Future Rapid Effect System Utility Vehicle current civil servants are not routinely calculated, and programme. [63741] would vary depending upon personal circumstances (3) what estimate he has made of how many vehicles and the section of the civil service pension scheme to will be supplied to the armed forces under the Future which the member belongs. This information could be Rapid Effect System Utility Vehicle programme. provided only at disproportionate cost. [63742]

Peter Luff: The Future Rapid Effect System has been Defence recast from a single programme into a set of constituent programmes, one of which is the utility vehicle programme. Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department continues to examine the best way to Defence what the UK’s current standing commitments take the utility vehicle programme forward. The total are; what capabilities are deployed in order to meet cost of the utility vehicle programme and platform these commitments in each case; and for what reasons numbers will be confirmed when the main investment each such commitment is essential to UK security or decision is taken. The Department does not publish British interest. [63356] such estimates before this point as its disclosure would prejudice commercial interests. Nick Harvey [holding answer 4 July 2011]: The Ministry of Defence has several standing commitments. These Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence include strategic intelligence, the strategic nuclear deterrent, what recent estimate he has made of how many vehicles defence against direct threats to the UK and its overseas will be supplied to the armed forces under the Terrier territories, counter-terrorism and military aid to the programme. [63760] civil authorities. These roles are essential to the UK’s safety and security and support key British interests Peter Luff: Terrier is an armoured earthmoving vehicle around the world. that will provide an improved capability to support A range of specialist capabilities are deployed in mobility, counter-mobility and survivability throughout order to meet these commitments. I am withholding the the spectrum of conflict. 60 vehicles will be supplied. detail of what these capabilities are and the reasons for Civil Service: Pensions the commitment, as their disclosure would, or would be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness or security of the armed forces. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the size was of the pension liability in respect of his Department’s civil servants in each year Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for since 1997; and what actuarial forecasts his Department Defence which defence projects were awaiting approval by his Department on the last date for which information has made of such liabilities in future years. [63471] is available. [63648] Mr Robathan: The capitalised value of the liability in respect of all members contributing to the principal Peter Luff: As at 30 June 2011, business cases for the civil service pension scheme is shown each year in the following major projects had been submitted to the report of the actuary contained in the Cabinet Office: relevant departmental approval authority for decision. civil superannuation accounts. Copies of the accounts These include projects that are at various stages of the up to 2009-10 can be found in the Library of the House. process from initial circulation, clarification of outstanding However, the liability in respect of civil servants serving issues to a final decision. in individual Departments is not recorded separately Elements of the Complex Weapons pipeline and this figure could be provided only at disproportionate Elements of Nuclear Warhead Capability Sustainment Programme cost. Core Production Capability Acquisition of new Chinooks Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the total cash equivalent transfer value is Project Phoenix of pensions owed to current and former civil servants Maritime Equipment Transformation of his Department. [63472] Seaseeker. 1289W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1290W

Defence Assistance Fund Departmental Billing

Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the Defence Assistance Fund is in operation. what proportion of invoices from small and medium-sized [59001] businesses were paid by his Department within five working days of receipt in the last 12 months for which Dr Fox: The Defence Assistance Fund is a Ministry figures are available. [63571] of Defence fund used to finance activities in support of bilateral defence relationships to strengthen international Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is a security and co-operation and remains in operation. signatory to the Prompt Payment Code and is fully Defence: Equipment and Support committed, along with the Department’s trading partners, to pay all suppliers as quickly as possible. Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence We aim to pay 80% of invoices within five working (1) whether the Indirect Fire Precision Attack programme days. The following cumulative performance has been is included in the Gray Review; [63739] achieved, in the 12 months to 31 May 2011. (2) whether the Future Rapid Effect System programme Number/Percentage is included in the Gray Review; [63743] (3) whether the Merlin Capability Sustainment Invoices paid 4,353,287 Programme is included in the Gray Review; [63747] Percentage within five day target 94.75 (4) whether the Beyond Visual Air-to-Air Missile programme is included in the Gray Review; [63751] The five day target and the above performance relate to all MOD suppliers, irrespective of size, as it would be (5) whether the search and rescue helicopter project impractical to differentiate between small and medium is included in the Gray Review. [63818] enterprises and others. Peter Luff: I am interpreting the Gray Review to be “The Materiel Strategy” currently being developed by Departmental Manpower the Chief of Defence Materiel. This will not address individual projects but will consider the Defence Equipment Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for and Support organisation’s performance more generally, Defence how many people were employed by his including establishing its core role and how it can Department’s (a) Defence Estates and (b) corporate deliver its business most efficiently and effectively. This services in (i) Scotland, (ii) England, (iii) Northern review will be coherent with Lord Levene’s Defence Ireland and (iv) Wales in each year since 2007. [63068] Reform recommendations and my forthcoming White Paper which I expect to publish later this year. The Mr Robathan: The headcount of employees in the Materiel Strategy will be implemented from early 2012 Defence Estates organisation as at 1 April each year up onwards. to 2010 is shown in the following table. On 1 April 2011 Defence: Expenditure the new Defence Infrastructure Organisation (DIO) was established and the figure given reflects the new organisation. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps he plans to take to reduce expenditure Headcount through rationalisation of the defence estates. [63653] As at April each year: Mr Robathan: Following the strategic defence and security review the Ministry of Defence announced it 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 would achieve cost reductions of up to £350 million per Defence Estates and 2,800 2,630 2,600 2,750 3,120 year on the defence estate. This includes those arising Defence Infrastructure through the rationalisation of the estate, including the Organisation1 Total2 sale of surplus land and buildings, associated running cost savings and a revised approach to the way the Scotland 200 190 210 220 270 department manages and delivers infrastructure services. England 2,120 2,100 2,100 2,260 2,520 The creation of the Defence Infrastructure Organisation Northern Ireland 420 270 230 220 240 with effect from 1 April 2011 was the first major step to Wales 60 60 60 60 90 achieving these savings and will improve decision-making 1 Defence Infrastructure Organisation was formed as at 1 April 2011, on estate and rationalisation issues. comprising former Defence Estates TLB plus TLB property and facilities management functions previously situated within other Defence: Reform TLBs. 2 Table excludes personnel employed outside the UK in overseas or unknown government regions. Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Note: Defence how many consultants were employed by his All figures have been individually rounded to the nearest 10 and may Department to assist or participate in the Defence not sum precisely to totals. Reform Unit’s independent report into the structure There is no single body of staff in the MOD defined and management of his Department. [63354] as “corporate services”; depending on the definition adopted, staff from several different businesses might Dr Fox [holding answer 4 July 2011]: None. be included in the list. 1291W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1292W

Fire Services Peter Luff: There are currently 62 Lynx Wildcat on order from AgustaWestland, of which 34 Lynx Wildcat (Army variant) are due to be delivered incrementally Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for between 2012 and 2016, with the remaining 28 Lynx Defence (1) what steps he is taking to ensure effective Wildcat (Navy variant) being delivered between 2013 co-operation between the Ministry of Defence Fire and 2017. As announced in the Strategic Defence and Service and fire and rescue services in the event of Security Review, we plan to buy 12 additional Chinook serious fire incidents at defence (a) research and (b) helicopters for the RAF, as well as a further two to storage facilities; and if he will make a statement; replace those lost on operations in Afghanistan in 2009. [63206] We continue to work closely with Boeing on the assessment (2) whether he has met officials from the Health and phase of this programme prior to the main investment Safety Executive as part of its investigation into the decision on these helicopters. response to the fires at Aldermaston Atomic Weapons Establishment in August 2010; [63207] Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft (3) what assessment he has made of the performance of the Ministry of Defence Fire Service in responding Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for to the fires at Aldermaston Atomic Weapons Establishment Defence how many service pilots have flown Field in August 2010. [63359] Carrier Landing Practice missions; on which aircraft such missions have been flown; and how many such Mr Robathan [holding answer 4 July 2011]: Fire missions there have been. [63310] services employed on the Ministry of Defence (MOD) estate have established plans that identify the respective Nick Harvey: Field carrier landing practice missions roles and responsibilities of the MOD fire services and are not currently carried out by the Royal Navy or the local authority fire services in the event of fire RAF. Individual pilots on secondment to the US Navy incidents at Defence establishments. In support of the conduct such missions in T-45 Goshawk and F-18 mutual co-operation and interoperability that already Hornet aircraft, but information on the number of exists between these organisations Joint training and these missions is not held centrally and could be provided exercises are regularly undertaken, as are liaison visits only at disproportionate cost. to review risks and to ensure emergency responders maintain familiarity with the sites’ facilities, hazards Libya: Armed Conflict and operational procedures. These arrangements are in place at all Defence sites where MOD fire services are Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State established, including research and storage facilities. for Defence whether officials of his Department involved Several local authority fire and rescue services responded in post-conflict planning in Libya have discussed the to the fire at Atomic Weapons Establishment (AWE) on task with officials involved in post-conflict planning 3 August 2010, including Royal Berkshire, Hampshire after the invasion of (a) Afghanistan in 2001 and (b) and the London fire brigade, as well as the AWE fire Iraq in 2003. [63086] and rescue service and the Defence Fire Risk Management Organisation (DFRMO). DFRMO has investigated the Nick Harvey: Officials have had many discussions fire and rescue services’ operational response to the fire. regarding post conflict planning. These discussions have Their report, which was published on the MOD website involved those with previous experience of post conflict on 9 June, identifies a number of learning points and planning to ensure that any appropriate lessons learnt provides recommendations to rectify those shortfalls from Afghanistan and Iraq are fed into the planning identified in the fire services’ response to the fire incident. process. The DFRMO report can be accessed via the following link: Military Aircraft: Repairs and Maintenance http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/MicroSite/DES/ OurPublications/HealthandSafety/ Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for I have also placed a copy of the report in the Library Defence how many maintainers there are per airframe of the House, along with the DFRMO report on their in the (a) RAF, (b) Fleet Air Arm and (c) Army Air investigation into the cause of the fire. Corps. [62106] There have been no meetings between MOD Ministers Peter Luff [holding answer 27 June 2011]: The and the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) concerning information is not held in the format requested and the latter’s investigation into the fire at the Atomic could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Aircraft Weapons Establishment and none have been needed, maintenance is carried out by service personnel, Ministry although MOD officials with regulatory responsibilities of Defence civilians and as part of contractual agreements meet routinely with the HSE and other relevant bodies with industry across all three services. as part of their duties. NATO Helicopters Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many Weapon System Partnerships the Defence how many helicopters are under order by his UK has participated in through NATO’s Maintenance Department; and when he expects them to be delivered. and Supply Agency; and what the (a) partner country [63655] and (b) weapon system is in each case. [62175] 1293W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1294W

Mr Gerald Howarth: The UK is a member of the Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD), its following NATO Maintenance and Supply Agency agencies and its non-departmental public bodies ensure (NAMSA) Weapon System Partnerships (WSP): compliance with Government policy on timber and Artillery Rocket and Missile Systems (ARMS) WSP with wood derived products. The MOD has a standard condition France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Turkey and USA. This partnership that is used in all contracts where such products are to supports the Multiple Launch Rocket System. be supplied. It requires the contractor to obtain and Helicopter WSP with Germany, Greece, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey retain evidence of sustainability for timber and wood- and Austria. This partnership supports the overhaul and upgrade containing products delivered to the MOD and consumed of Mi-17 helicopters for the Afghan theatre. during performance of contracts. We are not aware that Ship-Shore-Ship Buffer (SSSB) WSP with Denmark, Greece, any of the contractors have encountered problems sourcing Italy, Netherlands, Norway, and Turkey.This partnership supports sufficient supplies to meet our requirements. The maritime tactical data links. Department has not assessed the effect of its purchasing Ammunition WSP with Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, strategy on the wider timber market. Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, Turkey and USA. This supports ammunition procurement and the Trident Submarines disposal of obsolete or redundant items. Mobile Pipeline Repair Equipment (MPRE)/War Damage Repair Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for (WARDAM) WSP with Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Italy, Defence what estimate he has made of the potential Netherlands and Turkey. This WSP supports the overhaul of savings to the public purse arising from a reduction in high pressure and low pressure pumps, shock reducing valves the number of operational warheads on the Vanguard and pressure reducing valves. class submarines to no more than 120. [63656] Global Positioning Systems (GPS) WSP with Canada, Netherlands, and US. This WSP provides technical and engineering support Nick Harvey: We are reducing the number of operational for GPS systems. warheads to demonstrate our commitment to maintaining RAF Menwith Hill: Manpower only the minimum nuclear deterrent necessary. The resulting financial saving was not a factor in this decision, Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for however we do expect to save some tens of millions of Defence how many UK national (a) full-time employees pounds over the next 10 years. This contributes to the and (b) full-time equivalent employees there were at overall £1.2 billion of savings on the deterrent programme Menwith Hill on the most recent date for which figures identified in the strategic defence and security review. are available; and in what capacity they are employed. [63659]

Nick Harvey: As of 30 June 2011 the following number CABINET OFFICE of UK nationals were employed at RAF Menwith Hill: Departmental Billing Number

Ministry of Defence 389 Oliver Heald: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Ministry of Defence Police and 165 Office what proportion of invoices from small and Guarding Agency medium-sized businesses were paid by his Department UK Contractors full-time 54 within five working days of receipt in the last 12 months UK Contractors part-time 24 for which figures are available. [63568]

I am withholding further information in the interests Mr Maude: The information requested for the Cabinet of national security. Office is not readily available and could not be obtained without exceeding the disproportionate cost threshold. Somalia: Armed Conflict For details of Cabinet Office invoices paid on time I refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 29 June Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011, Official Report, column 843W, to the right hon. Defence whether his Department has allocated funding Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham). for the purposes of defence capacity building in Somaliland during the comprehensive spending review period. Departmental Freedom of Information [63271]

Nick Harvey [holding answer 5 July 2011]: There are Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet no plans to allocate Ministry of Defence funds to Office how many requests under the provisions of the defence capacity building in Somaliland. The United Freedom of Information Act 2000 his Department Kingdom’s contribution to security sector reform in received from (a) hon. Members from each political Somaliland is carried out under the tri-departmental party and (b) members of the public in each year since conflict prevention pool. the Act’s entry into force. [63586] Timber Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office does not collect statistics about the background of individual requesters. This is Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for because the Freedom of Information Act is applicant Defence if he will make an assessment of the effects of and motive blind and therefore it is not necessary to his Department’s policies on the availability of wood record or determine whether a requestor is a Member of for commercial purposes. [63613] Parliament or member of the public. 1295W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1296W

The Ministry of Justice publishes quarterly and annual this work. This was stopped as plans are under way to collect statistics on the volume, timeliness and outcome of procurement spend data in a more efficient and timely manner as information requests received by over 40 central part of ERG’s Centralising Commodity Procurement programme. Government bodies. The Government are committed to reducing statistical data collections as a way of reducing burdens and cost Departmental Statistics on all involved. There would be a disproportionate cost to accurately calculating what has been saved by stopping Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the collection of these data sets as work spanned across Office what statistical data, other than official statistics, not just the Cabinet Office but resources across all his Department has ceased to collect in the last 12 months; central Government Departments involved in the and what the (a) reasons for and (b) savings arising completion of these exercises. from each such cessation were. [63664] Employment

Mr Maude: Over the last 12 months the Cabinet Mr Clappison: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office has ceased to collect the following statistical Office how many and what proportion of (a) UK data: nationals, (b) people born in the UK, (c) foreign Horizon scan a programme of activity analysing the accounts nationals, (d) non-UK EU nationals and (e) non-EU of suppliers considered to be critical to Government delivery for foreign nationals (i) aged over 16 years and (ii) of signs of financial distress, and working with suppliers at risk of working age were in employment in the UK in each of bankruptcy to turn situations around. There were two FTEs the last 12 quarters for which figures are available. assigned to this work in the centre, with ad hoc support from [63837] senior commercial leaders. This work was stopped as it was overtaken by a new supplier management strategy; Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the The Operational Efficiency Programme reporting: There was responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have never a costing of this, however it incurred significant manpower costs for all the 100 plus organisations that completed it, from asked the authority to reply. several man days for a small organisation to an estimate of Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2011: several hundred man days for the largest completing organisation. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I This was stopped because it was considered highly inefficient to have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking deliver poor quality data; how many and what proportion of (a) UK nationals, (b) people The CAF supplier reporting: A six monthly statistical survey born in the UK, (c) foreign nationals, (d) non-UK EU nationals of our key IT suppliers, focusing on delivery quality, cost and and (e) non-EU nationals (i) aged over 16 years and (ii) of efficacy; and of their customers. The manpower in the centre to working age were in employment in the UK in each of the last support this was around two FTEs. A decision was taken to 12 quarters for which figures are available. 63837 suspend the CAF process while consideration was given to recent The requested information is provided in the attached table. work on the crown commercial portfolio, and launch of an Labour market statistics published in the monthly Labour alternative if necessary later in the year; Market Statistical Bulletin previously described as working age The Government CPO has cancelled the programme of PSPES (men aged 16-64 and women aged 16-59) have now been replaced data survey on public sector procurement spend providing expenditure with statistics based on those aged 16-64 for both men and details by supply market category of every significant central women. Consequently, the estimates provided have been produced Government organisation. There were two FTEs centrally leading on this basis.

Employment levels and rates1 for people aged 16 and over, by nationality and country of birth2—Three months ending March, June, September, December, 2008 to 2011—United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Thousands and percentage Aged over 16 years Non-UK UK Rate Rate Foreign Rate EU Rate Non-EU Rate nationals (%) UK born (%) nationals (%) nationals (%) nationals (%)

2008 Q2 27,138 60 25,729 60 2,306 63 1,084 70 1,222 58 2008 Q3 27,167 60 25,762 60 2,323 64 1,069 70 1,254 59 2008 Q4 27,008 59 25,565 60 2,383 64 1,075 69 1,307 60 2009 Q1 26,713 59 25,251 59 2,354 63 1,119 69 1,235 59 2009 Q2 26,494 58 25,063 58 2,311 62 1,104 69 1,207 57 2009 Q3 26,702 58 25,276 59 2,272 63 1,085 69 1,187 59

2009 Q4 26,671 58 25,236 58 2,297 62 1,070 68 1,228 58

2010 Q1 26,459 58 25,012 58 2,262 61 1,077 67 1,185 56

2010 Q2 26,502 58 25,053 58 2,414 62 1,182 69 1,232 57

2010 Q3 26,881 58 25,391 59 2,412 64 1,213 70 1,199 59

2010 Q4 26,777 58 25,278 58 2,414 64 1,218 70 1,196 58

2011 Q13 26,636 58 25,089 58 2,501 63 1,308 70 1,193 57 1297W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1298W

Employment levels and rates1 for people aged 16 to 64, by nationality and country of birth2—Three months ending March, June, September, December, 2008 to 2011—United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Thousands and percentage Aged 16 to 64 years Non-UK UK Rate Rate Foreign Rate EU Rate Non-EU Rate nationals (%) UK born (%) nationals (%) nationals (%) nationals (%)

2008 Q2 26,461 73 25,088 73 2,288 68 1,073 78 1,214 61 2008 Q3 26,499 73 25,127 74 2,303 69 1,058 78 1,245 62 2008 Q4 26,323 73 24,912 73 2,362 68 1,062 77 1,300 63 2009 Q1 26,022 72 24,600 72 2,333 68 1,105 77 1,228 62 2009 Q2 25,788 71 24,399 71 2,287 66 1,086 76 1,201 59 2009 Q3 25,975 71 24,588 72 2,248 68 1,068 76 1,180 61 2009 Q4 25,923 71 24,529 72 2,279 67 1,058 76 1,221 61 2010 Q1 25,694 70 24,286 71 2,245 66 1,067 75 1,178 59 2010 Q2 25,701 71 24,287 71 2,391 67 1,169 76 1,222 60 2010 Q3 26,052 71 24,608 72 2,391 68 1,204 76 1,187 62 2010 Q4 25,927 71 24,468 71 2,391 68 1,206 77 1,185 61 2011 Q13 25,770 71 24,277 71 2,480 68 1,296 77 1,184 60 1 Includes self-employed and unpaid family workers. 2 Excludes those whose nationality and/or country of birth was not known. 3 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an indication of the quality of the estimates, as described below: Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5 per cent. we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220 Key: * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise ** 5 = CV <10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered reasonably precise *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered acceptable **** CV ? 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical purposes CV = Coefficient of Variation Note: It should be noted that the above estimates exclude people in most types of communal establishment (e.g. hotels, boarding houses, hostels mobile home sites etc.) Source: Labour Force Survey (LFS)

Statistics (2) how many and what proportion of (a) modern schools, (b) comprehensive schools, (c) selective schools, Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet (d) independent schools, (e) sixth form colleges and Office what (a) longitudinal and (b) other (i) research (f) other further education sector colleges with post-16 and (ii) collection of data the Office of National provision offer an A-level in (i) biology, (ii) English Statistics has (A) initiated, (B) terminated and (C) literature, (iii) history, (iv) geography and (v) at least amended in the last 12 months. [63666] one foreign language; [62146] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the (3) how many and what proportion of (a) modern responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have schools, (b) comprehensive schools, (c) selective schools, asked the authority to reply. (d) independent schools, (e) sixth form colleges and Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2011: (f) other further education sector colleges with post-16 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I provision offer an A-level in (i) accounting, (ii) art and have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking design, (iii) business studies, (iv) communication and what (a) longitudinal and (b) other (i) research and (ii) collection culture, (v) dance, (vi) design and technology, (vii) drama of data the Office of National Statistics has (A) initiated, (B) or theatre studies, (viii) electronics, (ix) film studies, (x) terminated and (C) amended in the last 12 months. 63666 home economics, (xi) information and communication Information in the form requested is not readily available and technology, (xii) law, (xiii) media studies, (xiv) music could be obtained (compiled) only at disproportionate cost. technology, (xv) sports studies, (xvi) travel and tourism and (xvii) environmental studies. [62147] EDUCATION Mr Gibb [holding answer 27 June 2011]: The available GCE A-level information has been placed in the House Libraries. Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for GCSE Education (1) how many and what proportion of (a) modern schools, (b) comprehensive schools, (c) selective schools, (d) independent schools, (e) sixth form colleges Nadhim Zahawi: To ask the Secretary of State for and (f) other further education sector colleges with Education (1) what proportion of marks in all (a) post-16 provision offer an A-level in (i) mathematics, (ii) GCSE and (b) A-level examinations are given for (i) further mathematics, (iii) physics and (iv) chemistry; coursework and (ii) written examinations in (A) 1997 [61958] and (B) 2010; [64001] 1299W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1300W

(2) what proportion of (a) GCSE and (b) A-level proportion of candidates taking assessment in a linear examinations sat in (i) 1997 and (ii) 2010 contained a way this summer can be found on the following link: coursework element; [64002] http://www.ofqual.gov.uk/news-and-announcements/83/660 (3) what proportion of GCSE examinations sat in (i) GCSE: Assessments 1997 and (ii) 2010 were taken in modules. [64003] Mr Gibb: The information can be found on Pages 7 John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and 8 of the Qualification and Curriculum Authority’s what results pupils of each school of the Schools 2005 report “A review of GCE and GCSE coursework Partnership Trust achieved in GCSE examinations in arrangements”: each of the last 10 years; and what the rate of (a) http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/q/ truancy and (b) (i) temporary and (ii) permanent exclusion qcda%20cousework%20report.pdf was in each school in each such year. [62700] GCSE weightings for all new specifications, most of which were first examined in 2011, can be found in the Mr Gibb [holding answer 28 June 2011]: The available National Archives information on controlled assessments: information for state-funded secondary schools in the http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:// Schools Partnership Trust is shown in the following www.ofqual.gov.uk/2421.aspx table. We do not have access to data from 1997. Information for Garforth Academy and Rossington Paragraphs 6 and 7 of Ofqual’s advice to the Secretary All Saints Academy is not available as these schools of State on unitisation of GCSEs giving figures for the opened in November 2010 and April 2011 respectively.

GCSE examination results, rates of authorised and unauthorised absence and percentage of fixed period and permanent exclusions in state-funded schools in the School Partnership Trust 2009/10 Percentage of pupils achieving 5+ A*-C GCSEs (or equivalent) Percentage of including English Authorised absence Percentage of fixed permanent and maths GCSEs rate1 Unauthorised rate1 period exclusions2 exclusions2

De Warenne Academy 30 6.61 2.27 3— 3— South Leeds Academy 29 8.47 6.01 3— 3— 1 The number of sessions missed due to authorised/unauthorised absence expressed as a percentage of the total number of possible sessions. 2 The number of permanent/fixed period exclusions expressed as a percentage of the number (headcount) of all pupils (excluding dually registered). 3 Not available. Exclusion data for 2009/10 is due to be published at the end of July 2011.

Health Education: Sex preventative measures on maintained schools to stop them teaching sex and relationship education (SRE) within national curriculum science lessons. Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will take steps to ensure that SRE is covered in personal, social, health and economic maintained schools are prevented from teaching (PSHE) education which will be subject to an internal aspects of sex and relationships education in science review. lessons that are not covered by the national curriculum Pupils: Disadvantaged for science as part of his Department’s review of personal, social, health and economic education. Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for [63908] Education how many pupils were eligible for free school meals in (a) Worcestershire and (b) Redditch constituency in the latest period for which figures are Mr Gibb [holding answer 5 July 2011]: We trust available. [63240] teachers to use their professional judgement when following the national curriculum programmes of study for science. Mr Gibb: The information requested is shown in the We do not therefore consider it necessary to impose following table:

Maintained nursery, state-funded primary, state-funded secondary1,2,3 and special schools4: Free school meal eligibility5,6. As at January 2011 in Worcestershire local authority and Redditch parliamentary constituency Maintained nursery and state-funded State-funded secondary schools1,3 Special schools4 primary schools1,2 No. of No. of No. of pupils pupils pupils known to %known known to %known known to %known be to be be to be be to be eligible eligible eligible eligible eligible eligible for and for and for and for and for and for and claiming claiming claiming claiming claiming claiming for free for free for free for free for free for free No. on school school No. on school school No. on school school roll5 meals5,6 meals5,6 roll5 meals5,6 meals5,6 roll5 meals5,6 meals5,6

Worcestershire local 36,624 5,225 14.3 32,475 3,838 11.8 958 309 32.3 authority 1301W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1302W

Maintained nursery, state-funded primary, state-funded secondary1,2,3 and special schools4: Free school meal eligibility5,6. As at January 2011 in Worcestershire local authority and Redditch parliamentary constituency Maintained nursery and state-funded State-funded secondary schools1,3 Special schools4 primary schools1,2 No. of No. of No. of pupils pupils pupils known to %known known to %known known to %known be to be be to be be to be eligible eligible eligible eligible eligible eligible for and for and for and for and for and for and claiming claiming claiming claiming claiming claiming for free for free for free for free for free for free No. on school school No. on school school No. on school school roll5 meals5,6 meals5,6 roll5 meals5,6 meals5,6 roll5 meals5,6 meals5,6

Redditch 4,553 883 19.4 6,107 1,010 16.5 149 59 39.6 parliamentary constituency 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes primary academies. 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies. 4 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools, excludes general hospital schools. 5 Includes sole and dual (main) registrations. 6 Pupils known to be eligible for and claiming for tree school meals who have full-time attendance and are aged 15 or under, or pupils who have part-time attendance and are aged between five and 15. Source: School Census

The latest information, for January 2011, on free school school meals in (a) Dartford constituency and (b) meal eligibility and other school and pupil information Kent in the latest period for which figures are available. can be found at: [63285] http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001012/ index.shtml Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: The information requested is shown in the Education how many pupils were eligible for free following table:

Maintained nursery, state-funded primary, state-funded secondary1,2,3 and special schools4: Free school meal eligibility5,6. As at January 2011 in Dartford parliamentary constituency and Kent local authority Maintained nursery and state-funded State-funded secondary schools1,3 Special schools4 primary schools1,2 No. of No. of No. of pupils %known pupils % known pupils %known known to to be known to to be known to to be be eligible eligible be eligible eligible be eligible eligible for and for and for and for and for and for and claiming claiming claiming claiming claiming claiming for free for free for free for free for free for free No. on school school No. on school school No. on school school roll5 meals5,6 meals5,6 roll5 meals5,6 meals5,6 roll5 meals5,6 meals5,6

Dartford 8,304 1,111 13.4 6,800 596 8.8 293 82 28.0 parliamentary constituency Kent local authority 106,298 16,217 15.3 81,714 9,435 11.5 2,763 872 31.6 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes primary academies. 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies. 4 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools, excludes general hospital schools. 5 Includes sole and dual (main) registrations. 6 Pupils known to be eligible for and claiming for free school meals who have full-time attendance and are aged 15 or under, or pupils who have part-time attendance and are aged between five and 15. Source: School Census

The latest information, for January 2011, on free of religious education from the English Baccalaureate; school meal eligibility and other school and pupil and if he will place copies of such representations in the information can be found at: Library. [63642] http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001012/ index.shtml Mr Gibb: The Department has received 2,592 pieces Religion: English Baccalaureate of correspondence about religious education and the English Baccalaureate since September 2010. Due to Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Education the high volume it is not practical to place copies in the what recent representations he has received on the exclusion Library but the key points made are covered in the 1303W Written Answers6 JULY 2011 Written Answers 1304W records of the Westminster Hall debate on 17 May, Schools: Transport Official Report, column 27WH, and in evidence given by religious education organisations to the Education Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Select Committee. Education how many free school bus passes were given to children in (a) Nottinghamshire and (b) England in Schools: Buildings (i) 2007-08, (ii) 2009-10 and (iii) 2010-11; and how many such passes he expects to be issued in 2011-12. Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Education [62940] what estimate he has made of (a) actual and (b) potential capital expenditure on school buildings for Mr Gibb [holding answer 30 June 2011]: The information each year from 2009-10 to 2014-15; and if he will make requested is not collected centrally for England. Department a statement. [62400] for Education officials have forwarded the question to the chief executive at Nottinghamshire county council Mr Gibb: Decisions on investment in schools are with a request to supply any available information made locally and the Department does not collect data directly to the hon. Member. on, or make forecasts of, expenditure on school buildings. Social Workers: Manpower Most of the capital which the Department allocates to local authorities for schools is not ring-fenced. Up to Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Education 2010-11, significant amounts of the funding allocated how many children’s social workers were employed by to local authorities were in the form of supported bodies other than local authorities in 2010-11. [62640] borrowings, and local authorities may not fully have raised their nominal allocations. Local authorities and Tim Loughton: The Department does not collect this schools may use other sources of funding in addition to data and is therefore unable to provide the requested the funding they are allocated by the Department. information. Analysis of the GSCC’s Social Care register For the spending review period from 2011-12 until at March 2007 suggested that 7,700 of the 76,300 social 2014-15, the Department has capital resources of workers registered at that time were being employed £15.9 billion. outside local authorities. 15MC Ministerial Corrections6 JULY 2011 Ministerial Corrections 16MC

The Department also funds research relevant to stillbirth. Ministerial Corrections For example, through an NIHR Programme Grant for Applied Research, the Department is funding a study Wednesday 6 July 2011 entitled “Improving Pregnancy Outcomes in Obese Women”. Running from 2008 to 2012, this study aims to develop an individually tailored “life style” programme for obese women. HEALTH Furthermore, the NIHR Cambridge Biomedical Infant Mortality: Research Research Centre has an ongoing programme of research on women’s health. A major focus of this research is understanding the determinants of stillbirth risk and Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for using this understanding to improve clinical care of Health (1) what proportion of the funding allocated by pregnant women. his Department for health research was allocated to research on (a) maternal and (b) fetal health in each of In addition, the Government currently fund the Centre the last five years; [59760] for Maternal and Child Enquiries (CMACE), which publishes an annual report into perinatal mortality. (2) what proportion of the funding allocated by CMACE monitors changes in perinatal mortality rates, his Department for (a) maternal and (b) fetal health and identifies causes and risk factors. In addition to research was allocated to research into stillbirth providing a national overview, CMACE also provides prevention; [59761] localised information to enable maternity units to review (3) how much his Department has spent on research and monitor their own rates so that action can be taken into (a) the causes and prevention of stillbirth, (b) to improve services. sudden infant death syndrome and (c) preventing neonatal deaths in the last 10 years for which figures The correct answer should have been: are available. [59762] [Official Report, 16 June 2011, Vol. 529, c. 911-12W.] Mr Simon Burns: The Department funds research through both the National Institute for Health Research Letter of correction from Simon Burns: (NIHR) and the Policy Research Programme (PRP). An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Estimated spend by the NIHR and PRP relating to Goldsmith) on 16 June 2011. The answer said that the maternal and foetal health is as follows. Department is currently funding the Centre for Maternal and Child Enquiries but it should have said that the Estimated spend on maternal and foetal health research as Department funded the Centre for Maternal and Child Estimated spend on a proportion of total NIHR Enquiries until March 2011. maternal and foetal health revenue and PRP spend The full answer given was as follows: research (£ million) (percentage) Mr Simon Burns: The Department funds research 2006-07 4.4 0.6 through both the National Institute for Health Research 2007-08 4.7 0.6 (NIHR) and the Policy Research Programme (PRP). 2008-09 9.0 1.1 Estimated spend by the NIHR and PRP relating to 2009-10 10.9 1.2 maternal and foetal health is as follows. 2010-11 12.7 1.3

Estimated spend on maternal The Department does not hold specific figures for the and foetal health research as proportion of funding allocated to research into stillbirth Estimated spend on a proportion of total NIHR prevention, preventing neonatal deaths or sudden infant maternal and foetal health revenue and PRP spend death syndrome. research (£ million) (percentage) The Government fund a range of research of relevance 2006-07 4.4 0.6 to maternal and foetal health, including stillbirth and 2007-08 4.7 0.6 sudden infant death syndrome. 2008-09 9.0 1.1 For example, the Department’s Policy Research 2009-10 10.9 1.2 Programme has funded a Policy Research Unit in Maternal 2010-11 12.7 1.3 Health and Care at the National Perinatal Epidemiology The Department does not hold specific figures for the Unit (NPEU), University of Oxford. Research themes proportion of funding allocated to research into stillbirth include pregnancy loss, perinatal morbidity, maternal prevention, preventing neonatal deaths or sudden infant morbidity and maternal mortality. death syndrome. The Department also funds research relevant to stillbirth. The Government fund a range of research of relevance For example, through an NIHR Programme Grant for to maternal and foetal health, including stillbirth and Applied Research, the Department is funding a study sudden infant death syndrome. entitled “Improving Pregnancy Outcomes in Obese For example, the Department’s Policy Research Women”. Running from 2008 to 2012, this study aims Programme has funded a Policy Research Unit in Maternal to develop an individually tailored “life style” programme Health and Care at the National Perinatal Epidemiology for obese women. Unit (NPEU), University of Oxford. Research themes Furthermore, the NIHR Cambridge Biomedical include pregnancy loss, perinatal morbidity, maternal Research Centre has an ongoing programme of research morbidity and maternal mortality. on women’s health. A major focus of this research is 17MC Ministerial Corrections6 JULY 2011 Ministerial Corrections 18MC understanding the determinants of stillbirth risk and 14 September 2009 David Walker, MD Communications met using this understanding to improve clinical care of with Gabrielle Cohen, Assistant Auditor General NAO at the pregnant women. Ebury Wine Bar at a cost of £53.04; and In addition, the Government funded until March 2011 7 April 2010 David Walker, MD Communications met with Gabrielle Cohen, Assistant Auditor General NAO at the Footstool the Centre for Maternal and Child Enquiries (CMACE), restaurant at a cost of £22.50. which publishes an annual report into perinatal mortality. The Commission dined with the NAO on three occasions CMACE monitors changes in perinatal mortality rates, where the Commission did not pay. and identifies causes and risk factors. In addition to 11 June 2007 Steve Bundred, Chief Executive and Sir John providing a national overview, CMACE also provides Bourn, Comptroller and Auditor General of the NAO met for localised information to enable maternity units to review dinner at Wiltons; and monitor their own rates so that action can be taken 15 January 2009 David Walker, MD Communications met to improve services. with Gabrielle Cohen, Assistant Auditor General NAO for lunch at the Ebury Wine Bar; and 2 February 2011 Eugene Sullivan, Chief Executive had a breakfast meeting with the Comptroller and Auditor General of COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT the NAO, Amyas Morse at the Mint Hotel. Audit Commission: National Audit Office The correct answer should have been: Robert Neill: This is an operational matter for the Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Audit Commission and I have asked the chief executive Communities and Local Government on what dates of the Audit Commission to respond to my hon. Friend representatives of the Audit Commission dined with direct. representatives of the National Audit Office paid for by Letter from Eugene Sullivan, dated 20 June 2011: the public purse since 2007-08; in which restaurants Your Parliamentary Question has been passed to me to reply. each meal took place; and at what cost. [61062] The Commission has paid for meals with the NAO on five [Official Report, 20 June 2011, Vol. 530, c. 50W.] occasions since 2007/08: Letter of correction from Robert Neill: 1 November 2007 the then MD, Communications met with The Audit Commission have identified an error in the Gabrielle Cohen, Assistant Auditor General NAO for lunch. answer they provided to my Department which Information on the location and cost is no longer available. accompanied the written answer given to the hon. Member 3 December 2007 Steve Bundred, Chief Executive and Sir John for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) on 20 June 2011. Professor Bourn, Comptroller and Auditor General of the NAO, dined at L’Escargot at a cost of £103.39; Sir Andrew Likierman NAO was omitted from the list. 5 May 2009 Steve Bundred, Chief Executive, Michael O’Higgins, The full answer given was as follows: Chairman, Professor Sir Andrew Likierman, Chairman NAO and Amyas Morse, Comptroller and Auditor General of the NAO Robert Neill: This is an operational matter for the dined at Qurinale at a cost of £240.19; Audit Commission and I have asked the chief executive 14 September 2009 David Walker, MD Communications met of the Audit Commission to respond to my hon. Friend with Gabrielle Cohen, Assistant Auditor General NAO at the direct. Ebury Wine Bar at a cost of £53.04; and Letter from Eugene Sullivan, dated 20 June 2011: 7 April 2010 David Walker, MD Communications met with Gabrielle Cohen, Assistant Auditor General NAO at the Footstool Your Parliamentary Question has been passed to me to reply. restaurant at a cost of £22.50. The Commission has paid for meals with the NAO on five The Commission dined with the NAO on three occasions occasions since 2007/08: where the Commission did not pay. 1 November 2007 the then MD, Communications met with 11 June 2007 Steve Bundred, Chief Executive and Sir John Gabrielle Cohen, Assistant Auditor General NAO for lunch. Bourn, Comptroller and Auditor General of the NAO met for Information on the location and cost is no longer available. dinner at Wiltons; 3 December 2007 Steve Bundred, Chief Executive and Sir John 15 January 2009 David Walker, MD Communications met Bourn, Comptroller and Auditor General of the NAO, dined at with Gabrielle Cohen, Assistant Auditor General NAO for lunch L’Escargot at a cost of £103.39; at the Ebury Wine Bar; and 5 May 2009 Steve Bundred, Chief Executive, Michael O’Higgins, 2 February 2011 Eugene Sullivan, Chief Executive had a Chairman and Amyas Morse, Comptroller and Auditor General breakfast meeting with the Comptroller and Auditor General of of the NAO dined at Qurinale at a cost of £240.19; the NAO, Amyas Morse at the Mint Hotel. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 6 July 2011

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1584 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Afghanistan and Pakistan...... 1584 Human Trafficking ...... 1499 Public Expenditure Reductions...... 1498 NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 1491 Security Situation ...... 1491 Disturbances (Belfast)...... 1496 Tourism (VAT) ...... 1496 Economy...... 1499 Fuel Smuggling ...... 1495 PRIME MINISTER ...... 1500 Government Spending ...... 1493 Engagements...... 1500 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 6 July 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 95WS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 98WS Regional Development Agencies (Transfer of Horn of Africa...... 98WS Land and Property Assets)...... 95WS JUSTICE...... 99WS DEFENCE...... 97WS Detainee Inquiry...... 99WS People, Pay and Pensions Agency ...... 97WS

EDUCATION...... 97WS TREASURY ...... 96WS Early Years Foundation Stage...... 97WS Planned Tax Consultations ...... 96WS PETITION

Wednesday 6 July 2011

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 9P Cheshunt Urgent Care Centre (Hertfordshire) ...... 9P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 6 July 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 1213W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1229W Departmental Billing ...... 1213W Council Tax: Exemptions...... 1229W Departmental Allowances...... 1229W Departmental Billing ...... 1229W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1278W Departmental Procurement...... 1230W Business ...... 1278W Empty Property ...... 1231W Businesses: Beckenham ...... 1279W Enterprise Zones...... 1231W Care Homes: Private Sector ...... 1280W Fire Services: Finance ...... 1231W Debt Managers Standards Association ...... 1280W Green Belt...... 1231W Departmental Billing ...... 1280W Homes and Communities Agency: Procurement.... 1232W Departmental Freedom of Information ...... 1281W Housing: Water Supply ...... 1232W Departmental Statistics...... 1281W Local Authorities: Older People...... 1232W Departmental Visits Abroad ...... 1282W Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 1233W Directors...... 1282W Local Government Finance ...... 1233W Export Development Credits: Colombia...... 1282W Local Government Finance: Voluntary Higher Education: Finance ...... 1283W Organisations...... 1234W Manufacturing Industry...... 1283W Scotland...... 1234W Trade Unions ...... 1234W Travellers: Caravan Sites ...... 1235W CABINET OFFICE...... 1294W Departmental Billing ...... 1294W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1249W Departmental Freedom of Information ...... 1294W Advertising: Children...... 1249W Departmental Statistics...... 1295W Broadband: Hertfordshire...... 1249W Employment ...... 1296W Cultural Heritage: Kent ...... 1249W Statistics...... 1297W Departmental Billing ...... 1250W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 1259W Departmental Freedom of Information ...... 1250W Anguilla: Seas and Oceans ...... 1259W Digital Broadcasting ...... 1250W British Overseas Territories...... 1259W Digital Economy Act 2010...... 1251W Commonwealth Scholarships...... 1259W Internet: Copyright ...... 1251W Departmental Freedom of Information ...... 1260W Museums and Galleries...... 1251W Departmental Official Cars...... 1261W Olympic and Paralympic Transport Plan ...... 1251W Iraq: Christianity ...... 1261W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 1252W Libya: Politics and Government...... 1262W Public Appointments ...... 1252W Mongolia ...... 1262W Radio ...... 1252W Mongolia: Foreign Relations...... 1262W Pakistan: Religious Freedom...... 1263W DEFENCE...... 1283W Western Sahara: Politics and Government ...... 1263W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 1283W Armed Forces: Bexley ...... 1284W HEALTH...... 1269W Armed Forces: Germany...... 1284W Abortion: Counselling ...... 1269W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 1284W Care Homes ...... 1269W Armed Forces: Private Education ...... 1284W Colorectal Cancer: Screening ...... 1270W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 1286W Day Care...... 1270W Civil Service: Pensions ...... 1287W Departmental Billing ...... 1271W Defence...... 1288W Departmental Freedom of Information ...... 1271W Defence Assistance Fund ...... 1289W Direct Payments...... 1272W Defence: Equipment and Support...... 1289W Health Services: Learning Disability ...... 1272W Defence: Expenditure...... 1289W Home Care Services ...... 1273W Defence: Reform ...... 1289W Human Papilloma Virus: Vaccination ...... 1273W Departmental Billing ...... 1290W Mental Health Services ...... 1274W Departmental Manpower...... 1290W NHS: Reorganisation...... 1275W Fire Services...... 1291W Prosthetics...... 1276W Helicopters...... 1291W Ritalin: Children ...... 1276W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 1292W Skin Cancer: Young People...... 1277W Libya: Armed Conflict...... 1292W Specialised Services Patient and Public Military Aircraft: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 1292W Engagement Steering Group...... 1277W NATO...... 1292W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1215W RAF Menwith Hill: Manpower ...... 1293W Capita ...... 1215W Somalia: Armed Conflict ...... 1293W Counter-terrorism: Finance ...... 1216W Timber ...... 1293W Deportation: Offenders...... 1217W Trident Submarines...... 1294W Domestic Violence ...... 1217W Drugs...... 1217W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 1278W Hunting Act 2004...... 1218W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 1278W Identity and Passport Office: Liverpool ...... 1219W House of Lords: Reform...... 1278W Identity and Passport Office: Newport (Gwent)..... 1219W Illegal Immigrants...... 1219W EDUCATION...... 1297W Illegal Immigrants: Bexley ...... 1219W GCE A-level...... 1297W Members: Correspondence ...... 1220W GCSE ...... 1298W National Policing Improvement Agency...... 1220W GCSE: Assessments ...... 1300W Offenders: Foreign Nationals ...... 1220W Health Education: Sex ...... 1299W Organised Crime ...... 1220W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 1300W Organised Crime: Exclusion Orders ...... 1221W Religion: English Baccalaureate ...... 1301W Prisoners: Foreign Nationals...... 1221W Schools: Buildings...... 1303W Raed Salah...... 1221W Schools: Transport ...... 1304W Social Workers: Manpower ...... 1304W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 1266W Complaints ...... 1266W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 1213W Members: Complaints...... 1267W Alternative Vote: Referendums...... 1213W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1263W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1267W Anguilla: Environment Protection ...... 1263W Carbon Sequestration ...... 1267W Departmental Billing ...... 1264W Fukushima...... 1268W Departmental Freedom of Information ...... 1264W Public Sector: Energy...... 1268W Developing Countries: Family Planning...... 1264W Developing Countries: Health Services ...... 1265W Developing Countries: Primary Education ...... 1265W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 1253W JUSTICE...... 1214W Beaches: Sunderland ...... 1253W Archway Tower ...... 1214W Departmental Official Cars...... 1253W Departmental Translation Services ...... 1214W Departmental Regulation...... 1254W Prisoners’ Release...... 1215W Food: Reserves...... 1255W Young Offenders ...... 1215W Reservoirs ...... 1255W Tyre Bales ...... 1256W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 1257W Water ...... 1256W Access to Work Programme ...... 1257W Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND—continued TREASURY—continued By-elections: West Belfast ...... 1257W European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism...... 1244W Constituencies...... 1257W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 1244W Corporation Tax ...... 1257W Financial Services ...... 1244W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 1258W Financial Services: Advisory Services...... 1245W Fuel Smuggling ...... 1257W International Monetary Fund...... 1245W Inward Investment ...... 1258W Loans: Republic of Ireland ...... 1245W Parades Commission...... 1258W Minimum Wage ...... 1246W National Insurance Contributions: New TRANSPORT ...... 1235W Businesses ...... 1246W Bus Services: Finance...... 1235W Pensions: Taxation ...... 1247W Departmental Official Cars...... 1236W Personal Savings ...... 1247W East Coast Railway Line ...... 1236W Tax Allowances: Pensions ...... 1247W East Coast Railway Line: Legal Advice...... 1236W Parking: Fines...... 1237W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1222W Pedestrian Crossings: Greater London...... 1238W Advertising ...... 1222W Roads: Accidents ...... 1238W Child Care Tax Credit ...... 1222W Roads: Repairs and Maintenance...... 1241W Children: Maintenance ...... 1222W Community Care Grants ...... 1222W TREASURY ...... 1241W Departmental Manpower...... 1223W Banks: Regulation...... 1241W Departmental Official Cars...... 1223W Bilderberg Group...... 1241W Housing Benefit ...... 1224W Board for Actuarial Standards...... 1241W Jobcentre Plus: Manpower ...... 1225W Cheques ...... 1242W Maternity Pay ...... 1226W Commodity Markets...... 1242W Poverty: Children ...... 1226W Departmental Billing ...... 1243W Social Security Benefits...... 1227W Departmental Official Cars...... 1243W State Retirement Pensions: Females ...... 1227W Departmental Statistics...... 1243W Unemployment Benefits...... 1228W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Wednesday 6 July 2011

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 6 July 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1491] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

Afghanistan [Col. 1511] Statement—(The Prime Minister)

Sunday Trading (Amendment) [Col. 1529] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mark Menzies)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Phone Hacking [Col. 1534] Emergency debate under the Standing Order No. 24

Estimates (3rd allotted day) [Col. 1584] Afghanistan and Pakistan Estimates agreed to

Petition [Col. 1622]

Football Clubs in Administration [Col. 1624] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Dangerous Dogs [Col. 463WH] Flood Defences [Col. 488WH] Employment (North-West) [Col. 496WH] Phonographic Performance Ltd [Col. 520WH] Special Olympics [Col. 527WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 95WS]

Petition [Col. 9P]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1213W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 15MC]