ORAL EVIDENCE

Taken before the Welsh Affairs Committee on Tuesday 28 April 2020 Members present:

Rt Hon Stephen Crabb (Chair)

Tonia Antoniazzi

Simon Baynes

Virginia Crosbie

Geraint Davies

Ben Lake

Robin Millar

Rob Roberts

Dr Jamie Wallis

Beth Winter

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EXAMINATION OF WITNESSES Witnesses: Rt Hon Simon Hart MP, Secretary of State for Wales, and David TC Davies MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales.

Chair: Can I start with a huge thanks to you, Secretary state, and Minister David Davis for making your time available to us for this session this afternoon. Not quite how we’d originally envisaged your first evidence session to the committee, Simon. David obviously you're you are returning to a former parish here. But we're delighted that you're on the on the call, as well. To reiterate, this is a private meeting, in the sense that it's not being broadcast live. However, a transcript will be made available in due course. For members of the committee, when we finish the call you may see on your screens a button that refers to a recording of this session. I'd be grateful if you didn't download that recording. That's purely to help the Clerk, and his team get an accurate transcript following this.

Q1 Chair: So can I just start by apologising to you ministers and to the Committee, those of you who would normally wish to speak in Welsh in these sessions I apologise that translation facilities are not available to us this afternoon. But, thank you to the Clerk, and his team for their efforts in making this session happen. My hope is that the next time we do this, Secretary of State, we will be doing it, If not actually physically in the chamber, we'll be able to do it live at least by videoconferencing and I hope that you would continue to be generous in terms of the time you make available to us. So, we'll crack on and, if it's okay Secretary of State, I'll start off with questions. And to get the discussion going, Secretary of State could you just briefly describe how you've reconfigured the organisation of the Wales Office, the work of your department to help support the UK wide response to COVID-19? Simon Hart: Thank you very much Chairman and can I just extend my sort of gratitude and welcome to everybody on the Committee too. We're all in uncharted territory in terms of technology and these things, so I hope we can create something which is helpful and meaningful for the Committee and I look forward, as you pointed out, to doing this in person sooner rather than later. To deal with your question specifically, when all of this started, and it seems an age ago now, yet it was only a matter of weeks, one of the very early things we did in the Wales Office, because we are not a spending department as such, is to look at the department, what its role could be should be within the UK government but also the relationship that it needed to then have, as a matter of urgency, with Welsh Government, and, as a matter of probably increased urgency, with hundreds, even thousands of stakeholders around Wales, from big business to smaller to individual concerns.

So we started the process of forming - those relationships obviously existed, up to a point but they needed to exist in a rather different context, and they need to be depoliticised quite rapidly we felt, but we also had a key role in communication. And I suspect it might come up in this committee session, but we felt very strongly that such are the complexities, in some ways, of the devolution settlement, the one thing that we could really help with was to try and decode and declutter and simplify a multitude of messages coming out, either in official form or through the noise of the media, so that our audience, our businesses and our residents in Wales, had a really clear idea of exactly what was going on, and who was responsible for what. And that, you won't be surprised to hear, is as much of a challenge for us today as it was on day one.

Q2 Chair: Thank you Secretary of State. Could you just perhaps briefly describe how you're sharing responsibilities amongst the ministerial team at the Wales Office and also give us a sense of how often you, specifically, are talking to the First Minister and other Welsh ministers in Cardiff? Give us a sense of the day to day work and interactions of the Governments.

Simon Hart: You’ve been in this role before, you'll probably know more by about this than me. One of the things we did again on day one, was what we sort of jokingly in the office described the separation of powers. That's the responsibilities which fell with my colleague David TC, and those responsibilities that fell to me, but the important decision that we took, I would impart to you, is that actually nothing was sacred, and we very much wanted this to be a team effort. Which is why David and I tried, as far as possible, to be sort of joint attendees at all of the critical meetings as they come up and have an impact on Wales. So there is just a set of subjects which are exclusively David’s, and certain subjects which are exclusively mine. Everything overlaps. Everything requires a degree of collaboration and cooperation between us as the two ministers of the Department and, of course, our small but dedicated team in London, but also our small and dedicated team sat in Caspian Point in in Cardiff.

Which leads me to the second part of your question about the relationship with Welsh Government. Everybody on this call will know that right from the day that the devolution settlement was signed and sealed there have always been tensions around the relationship. It was my intention before coronavirus, as far it was possible, to create a set of circumstances in which our customers, and I hate using that word, but our customers in this instance are employers, businesses, public sector, private sector, charitable, you name it. I wanted, if nothing else to be able to look them in the face and say that we are here to create the right circumstances for their particular businesses or charitable interests, whatever it might be, to flourish and to not have the sort of the constant news coverage of the relationship between UK Government and Welsh Government epitomised by cheap political point scoring. And I just felt that the 2019 election taught us, yet again, an important lesson that what the public expect of us is not always what we actually expect of ourselves. And what we should expect of ourselves is to provide a competent, grown-up service, respecting the limitations and advantages of the devolution settlement and because that was the best way we could achieve what the public are looking for us to achieve: which is to bring in jobs and prosperity. Then, of course, COVID came along and blew a hole in the whole plan, but what it has done is forced us, at even greater pace, to say, park some of our political differences in the course of the greater ambition, which is dealing with COVID. Now, it'll be interesting to see if we can sustain that in a post- COVID situation.

Q3 Chair: Do you feel like you're on the same team, as the First Minister, in this effort, or would you more appropriately describe it as different teams with identical goals, or are they not identical? I mean, how would you characterise it in a neat phrase?

Simon Hart: I should have answered your question that just now about how many times we meet. At the moment we have a conversation on the phone probably every 10 days or so. We communicate at official level probably almost daily. We have, I have at least one, normally two, conversations with Ken Skates, in a week. Matt Hancock and his team talk regularly to Vaughan Gething. There is probably more direct communication between Welsh and UK Governments than there has ever been, out of necessity. And we're on the same team in that we both want the same outcome, which is to deal with coronavirus as permanently and as rapidly and as safely as we can. Does that mean that we are absolutely joined to the hip in what the post-COVID economic recovery might look like? Time will tell. There are still, you know, and there always will be political differences, but I think the nation of Wales expects of us, whilst coronavirus is hanging over us in the dreadful way that it is, to focus our attentions on dealing with it, rather than being tempted down the route of scoring the odd cheap political point which is, which is tempting, and sometimes even almost justified but we've resisted it hitherto and I think that, I would like to think, has been appreciated by our stakeholders.

Q3 Chair: Can I can I ask you about something that the Welsh Chief Medical Officer, Dr Frank Atherton told us on the Science and Technology Committee last Friday afternoon? I was asking him about who is who is running the testing strategy in Wales, and I asked him about the launch of the new UK Government testing portal that had happened earlier on Friday, and he said to me that “we in Wales would like to have had a little earlier notification of the practical details”. He went on to say that “while there is sharing of science and understanding between the UK Government and the devolved administrations, and some sharing of policy, some of the areas, like the portal, were really not discussed in detail, across the Four Nations”. Do you recognise that? What is your understanding of why Wales, unlike Scotland, is not participating in this testing portal for key workers?

Simon Hart: I need to, I think, choose my word carefully. There have been numerous meetings at the chief medical officer and official level, since the beginning of coronavirus pandemic, between the UK and Welsh Governments. I think we're already over 50 in the first few weeks and so, I think, although I wasn't in the room when the CMO said, this, I'm possibly not as sympathetic to the claim as maybe some would expect me to be, because I think there has, in a very short time, been a huge amount of learning and cooperation which has been undertaken by people who share a common aim, which is to rid Wales and rid the UK of this dreadful disease. I don't suspect that there is a country in the world, or a government of any colour, anywhere, which will look back at the last three or four weeks and say that absolutely everything went like clockwork, absolutely everybody knew everything they needed to know when they needed to know it, and every order that was placed fulfilled, every button that was pressed worked, every plan panned out perfectly. Of course, there isn’t. What matters is the outcome. And yes, when I answered your earlier question about the temptation is to make political points, of course you know sometimes we'd be left scratching our head, the Welsh Government may have done something a little bit differently or to a different time scale to UK government, and as politicians our instant reaction is to think about, you know what, what potential gains we can make out of that. I'm not sure this is the right moment to do that.

There will probably be a very, very detailed and long investigation when all of this is over into what went well, what went badly and I suspect, of course, there will be examples of where in the devolved administration's there were decisions to taken which arguably might have involved people at an early stage. But what I can say is that where these anomalies have occurred, and having been in the room at most of these occasions, the idea that there would be any sort of underhand motive would be, I think we could dismiss that straightaway. Every meeting, right from the very first time I set foot into a COBRA meeting in 70 Whitehall, right at the outset of this, there has been Welsh Government representation at every level. And so, we have tried as a UK Government to make sure devolved administrations have been there every step of the way and had all of the information that we've had, all of the decision making capacity that we’ve had in UK Government, so that we can approach this thing as a UK-wide challenge. Ninety percent of the time that's probably worked okay but, there will be examples, when we look back, where we think maybe that could have been a slightly slicker process.

Q4 Chair: Okay, thank you. David, I’m conscious you haven't had a chance to comment yet. Is there anything in this field of questions you'd want to add at this point?

David TC Davies: I think, Mr Chairman, I'd simply agree obviously with what the Secretary of State has said. In over 20 years of politics in the Welsh Assembly, and now in UK Government, I've never known such a constructive atmosphere and a willingness by members of the UK Government and the Welsh Labour Government to work together on this issue. And I was trying to think of a witty answer to your question as to whether, you know, we're all on the same side or, or on different teams with a similar goal. I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. We are like a national rugby team which has come together with members from all sorts of different clubs, perhaps with a few different training techniques and outlooks, but all hopefully working to one common cause and I hope that some of those relationships, and that constructive working atmosphere will carry on after this crisis has ended.

Q5 Chair: Much like how the Barbarians rugby team operate. Before I bring in Ben Lake, can I ask about Government support for ferry operations from Wales and can I ask, Secretary of State, or unless, David, it’s you that's leading on this in the Department, what, whether you've been involved in discussions with the Department of Transport about what support from UK Government the ferry operators need and, specifically, can you address why the Holyhead route doesn't appear to be qualifying for UK government support and help us on the Committee to try to understand how the decision’s been made, and for what reasons.

Simon Hart: David, do you want me to have a stab and then…

David TC Davies: Yes.

Simon Hart: This has come up a couple of times, as you'd expect, recently we had a fairly detailed conversation with Ken Skates, and with Kelly Tolhurst, the relevant UK minister. UK Government is reviewing and looking at the situation, in the context of respecting the role of Welsh Government and indeed our colleagues across the water as well. I think this is one of those areas which probably didn't quite pan out in the way that the textbook said it might. It is one of those areas, but we're back on track in terms of relationship between UK Government and Welsh Government, and should be in a better position probably to follow this up with some helpful information to the Committee, I would hope, within probably a week or two rather than days. David you may have more to add on these matters.

David TC Davies: I can’t really add too much, Secretary of State, except that there’s obviously also been a discussion around that in the context of the north Wales Growth Deal. And those conversations sort of ceased a few weeks ago, really, but I would imagine that we're going to be coming back to that issue anyway, because there's a proposal obviously around that, as part of the north Wales Growth Deal which is going to be a matter of great interest to the UK Government.

Chair: I'm going to bring in Ben Lake now but thank you very much Simon and David.

Q6 Ben Lake: Thank Mr Chair, and Secretary of State and Minister for coming here this afternoon. It is a bit bizarre speaking to you all through the laptop. I just wanted to touch on two topics, very briefly, this afternoon. The first is one that I know will be of interest to all of us as MPs from Wales, and that is seasonal industries such as tourism and agriculture and perhaps what we could do to help them. And then the second one is, broadly speaking, testing and perhaps some of the future strategies that you might be able to explore.

If I can ask, briefly then, on the topic of agriculture and tourism - I know that there'll be agreement that they are seasonal industries and. For the tourism sector in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire, as well as it is in Ceredigion in North Wales, they're starting to worry now that they might be looking at this scenario, whereby they leave lockdown potentially losing most of the earning season of the summer. This year may be lost to them, and then perhaps the lock down, who knows, will be lifted. Understandably those businesses are starting to look at ways of surviving. My question is, in terms of your discussions with other cabinet colleagues, potentially in the Treasury, do you think there might be scope in a couple of weeks’ time perhaps to look at t bespoke measures, support measures, that offer specific support to certain industries such as tourism? And then also, in a way, touches on agriculture because, although perhaps not quite as acute, it is very seasonal. So, I just wanted to see whether there's been discussions and whether you think there might be some room to push that. Simon Hart: I think this is a huge question, I mean, it gets right to the heart and what does economic recovery look like in a post-COVID scenario? When does it start? Do we follow a sector-based model? How long will it take, and during that process what government interventions get withdrawn, which ones get extended, and all of the associated questions that run with that. I don't whether I’m going to be able to give you, you know, grounds for a huge amount of optimism, other than, what I can say, it is occupying the thinking of a range of individuals, whether it is at official level or ministerial level, or indeed Welsh Government level. And I can tell you that in every conversation I have with Ken Skates at the moment, bearing in mind a lot of this falls within the responsibility of the Welsh Government, my conversations with Ken Skates are always around trying to ensure that there is an evidence-based approach to it, and there is also a four-nation alignment across the UK. Because we're very, very sensitive to the fact that if there is divergence, which doesn't make sense and isn't justified by evidence, then we could make a complicated system, even more complicated.

Now, where we have a tiny and micro example, which a few people on this call remember in 2001, which was rural Britain coming out of something resembling a lockdown in the context of foot and mouth. Lockdown was really easy; it could happen overnight. You can stop stuff really quite quickly. Reintroducing activity back into the rural economy in 2001, became very difficult, very challenging, because you'd have farms which had in some cases had perhaps holiday lets or another tourist let, which were representative of a substantial part of his business and, but also a disease risk for them. So, what the government of the day had to do was introduce a transitional recovery programme, which was reflected in the support that was available, but also in the time scale over which that was done. So, that's point one.

My second last point of this, I think that the Chancellor has every time he's been on the podium in Downing Street always made the point, quite rightly I think, that nothing is ever set in absolute stone because to do that would inevitably result in us being…having our hands tied when it comes to individual people and individual businesses who are caught, not quite fitting into one of the many categories we've tried to design to ease the pressure where people are in lockdown and will design when it comes to actually helping people return to something resembling normality. Which is why, whenever an enquiry has come in, we've tried to look at ways in which we can examine every option before people are sent away because we haven't got the category in which they fall. I think, you know, we share similar constituencies in many respects, and it is, apart from everything else, a regular feature of my own inbox from my constituency. You know, what’s been described to me as the worst possible outcome is that we get to a stage in the next few weeks where lockdown can be lifted, but there isn’t an economy there to replace it. And there isn’t an economy there to replace the Government interventions, and so all of the people who’ve done so well over the summer, gritted their teeth, furloughed their staff, got to it, we’ve come out…and why? So, I think we are really conscious of that and Ken and I are determined to make sure that, as far as possible, it will make sense, it will be consistent across the whole of the UK. You sort of heard it here first I don't promise that that's what we'll be able to get to, but it is where we are at the moment.

Q7 Ben Lake: And just very briefly, and I know that there are opportunities to discuss this with the Secretary of State for Environment and Rural Affairs, but I know that on a previous call many members of the committee and indeed, the Minister and the Secretary of State have had briefings with the NFU and other stakeholders. I understand that there are moves being undertaken by the UK Government to relax the competition rules, which are to be welcomed, and hopefully that can help the supply chain reallocate some of its milk produce. Should these measures prove to be insufficient, are you confident that Defra might review the situation yet again, because there is a concern, which I think is quite particular for the Welsh dairy industry, that its processing capacity, in terms of processes, is not the same as England, and so we would be perhaps sustain greater long term damage should we lose any of those processes. So if these measures, including relaxation of the competition laws, do not seem to be working, are you confident that the Government might look again at the situation?

Simon Hart: Well, I mean, one of those areas where devolution has thrown off quite a complication, isn't it? Really, where agriculture is devolved, but, you know, most of the processing capacity isn't and some of the measures around processing are clearly not. We have to iron out that wrinkle. Opinions vary, by the way, between what Defra believes the extent of this problem is and what the NFU considers the extent of this problem is. Again, I suspect for us in West Wales it's more acute, we've got more people on a per capita basis affected by it. I can't speak for George Eustace, but I do know that this has revealed an area which needs to be quite carefully looked at, even if it only relates to5 or 10% of the entire dairy industry. It's quite a valid point. Again, I can't, I can't speak for George Eustice, but I know that, judging by the number of meetings and conference calls there are between colleagues on this subject at the moment, it isn't being dismissed out of hand.

Q8 Ben Lake: And finally, because I know I've taken up my time, my final question question is more of a pointer, Chair. I know that it may be premature at the moment to start looking at exit strategies, but the only thing I would just draw the Secretary’s attention to is that there is some good work happening in our area, and particularly Ceredigion, with a local authority, and the health board and Aberystwyth University, looking at ways of developing a kind of local testing and contact tracing and monitoring, which might be useful in forming the response elsewhere as well. I just wanted to draw attention to it.

Simon Hart: I think that, you know, shared experiences and shared knowledge has proven to be one of the upsides, and there aren't many, but it has proved to be one of the upsides and, and people are emerging with some fantastic ideas and very cost-effective ideas.

Ben Lake: Thank you.

Chair: Before I bring in Beth, Tonia wants to ask a quick supplementary to Secretary of State, and my plea to all questioners and ministers responding as if we could all be as concise as possible. There's an awful lot to get through this afternoon. Thank you.

Tonia Antoniazzi: Okay, and I thank the Secretary of State, I think that you and the minister probably need a job in the United Nations you've been so good.

David TC Davies: If the offer comes

Simon Hart: Don’t encourage him. Q9 Tonia Antoniazzi: So, I want to go back to what Ben was saying on hospitality. Now, one of the things that we've got is commercial rent is a real issue, particularly the costs of commercial rents, and I was wondering what work you were doing with Ken Skates on rent relief. So, you know, for example, nine months’ rent relief, particularly for the hospitality industry, would be very useful because places like Mumble’s Pier are actually shutting for a whole year and we can't have that happen. So, I just wanted to know what work you're doing around commercial rents and, you know, that can then be put at the end of a lease. So, are you doing any work on that and is there any hope that something like that can come about?

Simon Hart: The short answer is no; we haven't had a conversation about that specifically. We've had lots of conversations about what economic interventions that he, or we, can make, and which, you know, arguably achieve the same aim which is to reduce and eliminate people's overhead commitments during the period of time where they have no income. What we haven't done, but I'm very happy to do actually, David may have a view, is talk to Ken [Skates] about whether this is something more specific, because we haven't talked about rental per se.

Q10 Tonia Antoniazzi: Okay, because the Hospitality Union has done something on it, and I think it's worth having a look at. I think there's a lot of rogue landlords, on this point, who are taking advantage of tenants. And I think that we can't just say ‘oh it's because of COVID’. People are profiteering and I hope that you, we'll look to call them out.

Simon Hart: As you know, there was a moratorium on evictions in the rental market in its broadest sense, but, I know that doesn't address the full scope of what you're saying, I’m very happy to raise that with Ken so I think it's good point and we will see if we have some overlapping things on that. Yes.

Chair: Thank you, Tanya, Beth, you ready for your question.

Q11 Beth Winter: Yeah, thank you very much. I've got three questions in total. The first one is more of a comment. You were very positive in terms of your feedback on inter-governmental relationships between Westminster and the Welsh Government. But I think you need to hear from constituents, such as mine, where the perception is very different to what your experience is. I think the media have got a role to play in this, but also, I think there are some concerns about the relationship and devolution. I think Wales is ahead of the game in that respect, such as the social distancing legislation that we introduced, we produced the document last week about how to come out of the lockdown. And in terms of PPE, which is an area that's caused concern for my constituents, we are not in the same position as England in terms of the crisis, thankfully, but listening to the media, and what's coming out from central government, many of my constituents are extremely concerned. So, there’s definitely, in my experience locally, an issue that continues to exist, and communication, definitely needs to be looked at. I think it's interesting that the First Minister, apparently, called for a new weekly framework for the four nations. So, there may be meetings, prior to Cobra, taking place. So, I think improvements can be made, even during the crisis. It's not just about what lessons can be learned or learned afterwards.

My other two specific questions, if I may Chair, one is on prisons. We’re all aware the Ministry of Justice announced plans a short while ago to release 4,000 prisoners to ease the spread of the virus in prisons, and reading the press over the last couple of days, the achievement of reaching any targets has been absolutely appalling, I think about 33 prisoners have been released, so I would appreciate an explanation as to why that that is the case. And finally, I'd be interested to know about your views in terms of the additional funding which has been provided to Welsh Government. Do we feel that sufficient resources have been provided? I know our Committee will be looking at the post- crisis economic planning in more detail, but, for instance, the Chair of the Welsh Local Government Association Andrew Morgan wrote a piece about a week ago saying that even now local authorities are losing around £33million a month. Local authorities including mine along the Taff are struggling now, so I would appreciate your views on that, please. Thank you.

Simon Hart: Thank you, if I can deal with your first question and possibly your third and if David TC who’s the sort of Departmental lead on prisons could possibly do your second question I hope that's okay. Just on your first point, you're actually right and we try and review the effectiveness of comms all the time. And at the moment, there's a discussion going on in making sure that the Downing Street press briefing, which happens every day at five, is more explicit about what proposals relate to the UK as a whole and which fall into devolved areas. It's better than it was. I won't put it more strongly than that. And there's still some ground to make. What I would say is that it is a two-way arrangement. And I was quite surprised when the First Minister made his comments hinting, and I hope I haven’t misquoted him, at a lack of, sort of, day to day dialogue, when I know the number of meetings which have taken place. I remember some of the early Cobra meetings where myself, and Scottish Secretary and the Northern Ireland Secretary were not in the room, but the devolved ministers were. That’s fine, but that was the emphasis, right from the word go, that we must have devolved administrations in the room. And whether that is at official level, whether it's comms level or leadership ministerial level, that has been the case right from the outset. And so, whether it was the production of a post lockdown paper, or whether it's about around the subject of PPE, the intention, the ambition is, we should be sending out a consistent message, particularly for the benefit of people in the border regions, so that there can be no confusion about what individual policy comes up. It works, I think actually, quite well but it's not perfect by a long way.

On the question, and by the way, there is an expression ‘four-nations plan’, ‘UK-wide plan’ and I could bore you for the rest of the afternoon the number of times I've heard Ken [Skates] and Vaughan Gething, in particular, on the subject of PPE saying, ‘we can only do this as part of a four nation operation’. There is absolutely no doubt in Vaughan’s mind that the provision and acquisition procurement of PPE would only work if it was part of a UK-wide project. Likewise, Ken Skates, absolutely adamant the economic recovery will only work, so long as it is part of a UK wide strategy, no doubts in their mind at all, that it is an essential part of the success of extremely critical measures.

On the funding question, which is I think running currently about £2.1billion of Barnettised funds as a result of UK Government announcements, there is then of course a huge element of the direct interventions, whether that's through Universal Credit whether it's through alteration for tax regimes, which have a value on top of the £2.1billion. You know, there's always an argument in a crisis like this, that whatever is provided isn’t enough, but Rishi Sunak was telling the truth when he said that, you know, the contributions or interventions from the UK Government are pretty well the leading package in the world at the moment. So, yes of course we will always look at ways of expanding it, but we have tried to throw everything we can at this. David, did you want to deal with prison statement, is that okay?

David TC Davies: The direct answer is that we were looking to release up to, I think, 4,000 prisoners, if necessary, in order to allow the prisons to cope with the potential outbreak. The prisons have been coping remarkably well, I've been talking to people officially and unofficially working in prisons. And as a result, we've not had to release that many I think about 33 in total, two with Welsh addresses who've been released from England, but obviously what has been going on in the prisons, is that anyone who is showing symptoms has been isolated, work has stopped in prisons like Cardiff so prisoners are spending longer inside the cells, coming out twice a day for rest and for recreational purposes. From what I understand the prisoners themselves understand the need for this. They've been supplied with televisions. I'm sure they are not happy about it, but I think there's an understanding that this is a very unusual set of circumstances and people are going on with it at the moment.

Beth Winter: Thank you.

Chair: Thank you very much Beth. Rob Roberts.

Q12 Rob Roberts: Thank you Chair. I just wanted to go back to the points that were being made earlier with regard to inter-governmental working and communication. There was an article yesterday in The Guardian, interestingly, with an interview with the First Minister, where he said that his last contact with Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster was more than 10 days ago, and there was a clear implication from the article that there wasn't any communication going on between Welsh Government and UK Government. So, I'd like first of all for you very clearly, and you have kind of alluded to it already, to give a categorical assurance to this committee that this isn't the case and that we continue to very much pursue a four-nations approach in what we're doing.

Simon Hart: If I can have a stab at that. Yes, I really do believe that the relationship at every level is regular and thorough, and I'm sure with a bit of work we could actually come up with a schedule of letters, telephone calls and meetings that have occurred between Welsh Government and UK Government since COVID first came on to the scene. And I think people might be quite startled what a substantial document that would turn out to be. So, yeah, I was equally surprised to read those comments yesterday from the First Minister, but I pinched myself and reminded myself of our principal objective for us to defeat coronavirus rather than to defeat, you know, a political competitor in Cardiff. I don't want to go down that road, but I am more than happy to make sure that everybody's fully aware of the level of cooperation and collaboration between the two governments.

David TC Davies: If I could come in specifically on that, Mr Roberts, as it happens, I am the minister that is delegated to go to the ministerial implementation group the local government which is chaired by the Chancellor of the Duchy Lancaster (CDL). There is always a representative from Welsh Government there, it's not normally Mark Drakeford, but I'm sure we'd be happy to invite him to attend those meetings. They take place most days at about one o'clock, and you know, I look forward to seeing there if he's keen to talk to CDL then I’m sure CDL wouldn't have any objection to him being the Welsh Government representative.

Q13 Rob Roberts: Okay, fabulous thank you very much for that. Further in that article, the First Minister is quoted as saying “I'd rather we did it together. But if we can't get to that point and we think that there are things that are right to do for Wales, then we'll go ahead and do that”. Now, on Friday, the Welsh Government released its recovery framework. So my two questions about this are; Can you confirm how far in advance of that being released we had sight of that, and whether the publication of a standalone documents at any time, accords with public statements of cooperation and all working together with UK Gov?

Simon Hart: Thank you, all the first part of your question. That was right for Wales, and we all want to do what's right for Wales, and my thought around that is that we, and I would, I imagine that Mark Drakeford is a very carefully considering the words of his own ministers…he doesn't have to listen to me, he only has to listen to Vaughan Gething and Ken Skates to realise and recognise the emphasis, they put on Wales’s ability to defeat coronavirus by being part of the Union. So any divergence away from a UK wide approach, he will need to persuade, not me in the first instance, but the people who sit around his table in his office in Cardiff. On the question of the publication of the paper last week, we simply, as you know we're on the record here, we didn't see that, and it did come out of left field. I wrote on Friday. I hope a very polite and respectful letter to the First Minister, just re-emphasising our commitment on behalf of UK Government to work with his government in Cardiff at every possible opportunity, but for the effective execution of that work, communications needed to be a two-way arrangement. But he will have only received that letter over the weekend, so I wouldn't have expected reply yet, but there will be, as I said right at the outset of this meeting, there will be in the chaos of a pandemic, moments when, when the odd eye is taken off the odd ball but it doesn't deter me from trying to keep focused on all the things that really matter.

Q14 Rob Roberts: Okay, my final one just before I move on because I don't want to monopolise time here. So my office has done a significant amount of work and examining the differences between the messaging on the UK Government website, and the Welsh Government website to see where there are differences, amid a load of casework and a load of complaints that I've had, and I'm sure lots of us have had, about inconsistent messaging across the two platforms. It started off with things like the definition of what key workers are, and then through to what support is available for business. So, my question is, could we as UK Government have done more to provide consistent communication strategy. And where did the consistency fall down and the confusion for the public originate?

Simon Hart: Well, I think that in eight out of 10 cases that has been a satisfactory alignment between the policy of UK Government policy and the policy of Welsh Government. The problem seems to be on those two out of ten occasions where there may have been some degree of divergence. For example, the definition of key workers, as you rightly pointed out, but another one which caused me a certain amount of difficulty as a constituency MP was around the rate cap on businesses of 500,000 pounds or more. And I think it's those examples, which, if there is a need for divergence and to quote an earlier question, to do what's right for Wales, then there needs to be evidence offered to residents and businesses of Wales, as to why that divergence is necessary because if that evidence isn't offered then, unsurprisingly, people will leap to the conclusion that it may be a political judgement, rather than a practical and disease control judgement. And I think that would be a pity because it will undermine confidence in all of the people who are attempting to bring this disease to an early and satisfactory conclusion. And so, I…whenever this has happened and in the private conversations that I've had with Mark Drakeford’s ministerial team, it has been about, you know, we need to stick to a common policy here where it is physically feasible to do so because we don't, we end up where you have just described, which is people feeling confused or falling into a crack we hadn't anticipated., As I say I think it works more often than not, but it requires a considerable amount of, you know, patience and diplomacy between officials in the UK Government and officials in Welsh Government to make sure that we keep this thing on track and I think as we get into the economic recovery period it's going to be even more challenging to make sure that that we are consistent right the way through.

Rob Roberts: Yeah, that's all I have.

Chair: Thank you. Virginia Crosbie.

Q15 Virginia Crosbie: Thank you very much Minister for joining us today, it is very much appreciated. I just wanted to talk about the sort of economic support, and then sort of drill down slightly into PPE, and then I wanted to include a bit about the port, and Wylfa, if that's okay. I will try and stick to six minutes. Firstly, in terms of the economy, like many of my colleagues, we are very appreciative of the funding that we have had and the initial £10,000 grant. Obviously, a lot of my constituents work in tourism and so they were expecting to get this grant. And then it went back to the Welsh Government and then we had the three criteria. So, I wanted to hear back from you, it just seems that it's created a lot of uncertainty, a lot of fear and the different local administrations having different criteria. So, I wanted to hear, whether you were party to those discussions.

Simon Hart: You went a bit out of earshot for the middle part of that, where you were referring to the differences, on the 10k grant, between UK Government and Welsh Government. Can you just repeat that part of the question?

Virginia Crosbie: Initially, everyone believed they if they qualified, they thought they were going to get the £10,000. And then there was this additional hurdle, we had to wait for guidance from Welsh Government and then these extra three criteria which I know you're very familiar with now. So, I just wanted to know what, what were you part of those conversations?

Simon Hart: Is this basically the, the holiday let saga?

Virginia Crosbie: Exactly.

Simon Hart: Thanks, I missed that bit of the question. Yes, this was a fairly significant part of the conversation I had with Ken Skates yesterday. I asked him yesterday if they can provide some clarity, because it appeared that different local authorities were interpreting the guidance differently. I’ve had, in a Wales Office capacity, a large number of queries from recreational businesses in North Wales in particular, quite a few from my own constituency as well. It appears that, for example, in Pembrokeshire they are now not enforcing the guideline around 50%…you need to be able to demonstrate to your holiday business represents more than 50% of your, of your income, but other local authorities are doing this. So, I've said to Ken Skates that needs to be clarified and explained, but he was quick to say to me that he did want the responsibility for this to remain with local authorities. So, I can't tell you any more than that in this stage. My point of principle is that if the criteria suggests that you need to demonstrate, to qualify for the grant, your business represents more than 50% of your income, that should apply whether you are a holiday let owner or a shopkeeper. It shouldn’t only relate to holiday letters, because I worry that there is a sort of slightly darker motive behind going after holiday let businesses in that way, and not other legitimate businesses. So, it's been raised.

Q16 Virginia Crosbie: Okay, thank you. And then I just want you to drill down into PPE. The feedback I've heard from the sector here is that in England, there's been a manned hotline for senior healthcare staff that's being manned 24/7, whereas there's just been an email here. So my question is, is best practice really being shared between the UK and the Welsh Government and have you felt that there's been any resistance by the Welsh administration to introduce the same measures as in England, specifically in terms of channels of communication that people can use to report problems with procurements.

Simon Hart: Well, I, I have some sympathy for everybody involved in this particular endeavour. As General Carter said in the press briefing the other day, this is the most challenging procurement exercise he's seen in 40 years in the Army and getting this volume of kit, right kit, reliable kit to where it's needed, when it's needed, is an absolutely phenomenal exercise. Now, whether or not we had sufficient provision at the outset, that's probably an argument for another day. So, I'm quite sympathetic to the fact that this is not an easy task, and there aren't warehouses around the UK which people just can't be bothered to access or anything like that. I remember we had a meeting, Matt Hancock and I and Vaughan Gething in Cardiff before lockdown. And I just remember Vaughan Gething saying very, very clearly, we can only do this if we do it together. So, Vaughan Gething’s own position as the Health Minister responsible for Cardiff, was this is a big, big, big challenge, but we can only do it as part of a UK wide operation. And I don't think that, I don't think Vaughan has changed his mind since then, I certainly haven't heard him change his mind. But, and I know I can sound a bit sort of blindly optimistic about it, a lot of what's happened during the launch has been a remarkable feat. Because actually, there has been a UK wide procurement project.

It's been a bit criticised in parts because it was under the banner of Public Health England which gave the impression that it was. it was an English procurement exercise for only English patients and that was obviously wrong. And so, so that needed to be corrected. But the fact is actually people in care homes can still procure from their normal sources. They can procure from Welsh Government, the Welsh government is part of the UK wide scheme and there are, as you know, I think there are consignments coming into Cardiff. In UK Government we have provided the military personnel necessary to help Welsh Government distribute it around Wales and we've now responded positively to six requests for military assistance for the distribution of PPE. And so, when anybody asked about the collaborative and cooperative experience between UK and Welsh Government those are the stories, nobody really gives it the publicity that we would all love it to have, because a lot of people have done a fantastic work and getting that far. Q17 Virginia Crosbie: Thank you. I've got three quick questions to finish off. There are reports that independent pharmacies across the UK face a cash crisis as a result of the large increase in wholesale prices of medicine and higher staff costs due to longer opening hours and an increase the number of deliveries. Now, I've actually been out doing deliveries in my constituencies, and I know from my own experience how much pressure they are under. So, what discussions have you had with the Welsh Government and with UK Government colleagues regarding additional financial support for pharmacies?

Simon Hart: Probably rather obvious from where you are, but I'm looking down at some notes on my on my desk because there have been discussions, mainly around funding, rather than about the actual logistics of pharmacy provision itself. There has been some Barnettised consequences for Wales, and there has been a cash distribution which is what I was looking for - I think from memory it was £1.5million, which doesn't sound very much but there is around I think just over 700 pharmacies in Wales.

David TC Davies: I don't think I've ever been part of a direct discussion with ministers on this but as, as the Secretary of State said earlier on, the Treasury have shown an enormous amount of flexibility in terms of tweaking the support that's already out there, and if it transpires that there's a specific issue for pharmacists, then I'm sure that's something we could take up, but I know that there are problems for pharmacies for dentists and for a whole for, you know, for various other niche sectors. I can't answer the question fully except to say of course we will continue to have those discussions.

Q18 Virginia Crosbie: Okay, thank you. And then obviously post-coronavirus with the focus on jobs, skilled employment and investment, the Wylfa Newydd nuclear project will be very important for a significant amount of people in Wales and the UK. So, in terms of us getting back on our feet, so I wanted to ask your opinion, obviously we've had the delayed DCO, development consent order, and but I really wanted to ask your opinion on this. Finally, you mentioned the investment in the ports and Holyhead and I just wanted you to elaborate. You said that the UK Government was “looking at the situation”. So, I just wanted to understand, just a bit more colour on that as to what you were actually looking at, and what would what would make you sort of delve deeper. Thank you.

Simon Hart: Thank you, just because I've been able to find the piece of paper, for the avoidance of any doubt there are 714 community pharmacies. It is of course a Welsh Government matter. An additional £1.5million was made available by Welsh Government in March, and additional advanced planning of £55million, equivalent of doubling the end of March advance was made in early April to meet increased wholesale staff costs incurred by pharmacies. And that's obviously separate to some of the other intervention measures.

On your second point about Wylfa and economic recovery, if I could just flip that. One of the big discussions that we're having, and I think your committee is planning to have, will be around what economic recovery looks like and there are various sort of options. I have not had this conversation with cabinet colleagues yet in the formal confines of a Cabinet meeting. But there is no doubt that there is much discussion in Wales and in the business community in particular and, and in the conversations I'm having with Welsh ministers, that if we thought that economic stimulus was important, when it was announced in the budget, and before coronavirus then it has significantly increased in significance since we now face a period of economic, potentially, a period of economic hardship, out of which we want to climb as fast as we possibly can. And so, in me and David I think you have two people who will be advocating throwing energy and activity and, and sort of stimulus at the economy at the earliest safe opportunity, because we want to see the recovery curve as steep as we can possibly get it, and as soon as we can possibly get it so, and whether that's through, David can expand, North Wales Growth Deal, Mid Wales Credit Deal, other city-specific growth deals, infrastructure projects, all of the stuff that we were talking about before coronavirus came in. And of course, you know, the way in which the UK economy works, the way in which we get about our business, the way in which we spend our holidays are all going to change.

A final point on, on your question about what the UK Government is looking at it if you like in relation to the ferry route, I’ve got to give you a really unsatisfactory answer, which is that Kelly [Tolhurst] just wants to look again at exactly the circumstances which currently exist, and, and to understand in more detail what the particular challenges are. So, when I said that they're looking at it, it was genuinely because they're looking at it, but I don't think with any particular preconceived ideas or outcomes in mind, sorry.

Virginia Crosbie: Thanks very much.

Chair: Thank you Virginia, thank you Secretary of State. Simon Baynes, and I'm afraid we are going to have to speed up with questions and answers, please. Sorry about that.

Q19 Simon Baynes: Okay. Thank you Chair. Thank you, Secretary of State and Minister. I've got three interrelated economic questions. One is that, could you please continue, Secretary of State, with your colleague the Chancellor, to put pressure on the banks to speed up their loan approval process, which is still quite slow in my experience. The second thing is that the coronavirus crisis has thrown up in many cases the inadequacy of broadband provision. I've had particular problems in areas like the Ceiriog Valley in my constituency. And I think this is really important that when we look to the future that we redouble our efforts to improve broadband and mobile, but there are some chronic problems, and particularly with the conduct and the dealing of those problems by BT Openreach, which we must not forget, in the crisis. And the third area is that there are some anomalies in terms of particularly retail outlets at the moment. I have a lot of plant nurseries in my constituency, who are finding life very tough. But then there are some super stores and supermarkets are selling a lot of gardening stuff, and I would think that one of the things that we could do at this stage in the lockdown process without riding a Coach and Horses through the restrictions, is to iron out those anomalies.

Simon Hart: On question one on banks. Yes, I think that's a Wales-wide issue. And there have been a number of banks who've been dragging their feet, and basically saying well this business wasn’t viable before coronavirus. And so, they are reluctant to step in and assist, as they describe them to me, in propping up a business which was, I say, in their view, not a sustainable entity anyway. I think that is disingenuous in many cases and I think that's a sort of lazy excuse for not wanting to possibly go as far as I know the Chancellor wants to go. Broadband, interesting you raise broadband because actually, I've been quite surprised how little it’s featured, given the amount of time we are all spending on Zoom and equivalents. What it does do is just re-emphasise the need for when we, when we, as soon as we are back into a position where we can resume normal activity, I mean as a government that is, and invest in infrastructure and kickstart the growth deals and equivalent again, I think it's really, really important because we are going to run our lives differently, whether we're retailers or whether we're, you know, politicians our lifestyles will change you got to be more broadband dependent. And we don't want any particular rural parts of Wales held back as a result of that, I think it's a really good point which you, you have absolute support on.

On the anomaly between garden centres and the B&Qs of this world, yeah, I don't have a logical explanation for why we're in that position. I think there's been some talk about whether that might be changed, but I think we're now into the stage of this where in the next week or 10 days, two weeks, we're going to be looking at a debate where what coming out of lockdown looks like is going to be much louder, and much more obvious. I think some things may resolve themselves, even if they haven't been very fair during the whilst we've been under the worst of the worst part of it.

Q20 Simon Baynes: Thank you Secretary of State. Could I ask just one very quick supplementary, unrelated I'd have to say, and it's got two parts one is to praise the conduct of the police who I think have handled things with great sensitivity and discretion in my experience, and secondly, an issue that comes up a lot in my mail box is how we mark the great contributions by various people, particularly key workers, once the crisis is over whether it be by a medal, planting trees, monetary recognition or whatever. I just put those two quick points to you. I don't want to hold up the process.

Simon Hart: Thank you. I think on the police I think we'd all agree with that. We have a weekly meeting with the crime commissioners and chief constables, and I know how carefully they're trying to handle this and how difficult that is sometimes. By and large, I think they've got it about right, with the odd example, you know, being sort of soaked up on Twitter where it hasn't gone quite as well as it should. And on recognising the effort, I think that's going to be a significant process after all of this is over and actually every one of us on this call and beyond knows some people who have done some heroic things, but possibly don't feature on the national radar that much, but their efforts are nonetheless phenomenal and we should recognise it.

Simon Baynes: Thank you.

Chair: Thank you, Simon. Thank you, Secretary of State. I've got Tonia, very quickly with a supplementary and then we're going to move on to Jamie, and then Robin and we're all going to have to be much quicker. Thank you.

Q21 Tonia Antoniazzi: Okay. Thank you chair, right to the point I wanted to make is there's been quite a number of comments being made about the messaging around business and I just wanted to say, is it possible, Secretary of State, to highlight what the UK and Welsh Government are doing. I just think that, you know, devolution has been in place for 20 years, and the good things that the Welsh government is doing, are you shouting that from the rooftops?

Simon Hart: The answer is, yes. We’re making clear, every day, what's on offer from UK and from Welsh Government. We're not necessarily, you know, scoring it against a popularity table but we are very much pointing out what is out there.

Chair: Thank you, Tonia, Jamie Wallis, please.

Q22 Dr Jamie Wallis: Thank you, Chair. I'd like to ask some questions relating to support for businesses in Wales. So, following on from Tonia’s question just now, I asked a question at oral questions last Wednesday, about your discussions with the Welsh Government about removing some of the restrictive eligibility criteria on the grants, in particular the £10,000 grant to microbusinesses. And I was just wondering whether or not you were hopeful as to whether or not those discussions would lead to any change and these businesses might actually get the help they need.

Simon Hart: David, is that coming your way or my way?

David TC Davies: Well, I mean, as far as I I'm aware of the grant that Mr. Wallis is referring to is a Welsh Government grant that's administered by local authorities. Now, I think, I think some local authorities have chosen to be slightly more flexible over some of the restrictions than others. I mean, one of the restrictions that's come up, if I'm understanding you correctly is, for example, that micro businesses who are renting a premise may not be able to apply in some areas because they don't have a business rate number. That does actually affect a surprisingly large number of small businesses, but I think in some local authority areas, the local authority themselves have chosen to show a bit of flexibility over this by, by looking at previous accounts and things to see whether or not that business is bona fide, and has existed for a while. So, that there is some room for flexibility, but this is really a matter for Welsh Government and local authorities to sort out between them and not something that the Secretary of State and myself could make a ruling on other than by using our good influence we have with Welsh Government.

Simon Hart: The only thing I would add to that, if I may, very quickly is that I think that everything is going to change a lot in the fairly foreseeable future.

Q23 Dr Jamie Wallis: Okay, thank you. Ministers. How many businesses in Wales, have received funding as part of the relief schemes announced by the UK and Welsh Governments? David TC Davies: I’ll jump in there because we, we were looking for those figures earlier on, and I understand it's quite difficult to get an exact breakdown. Mr. Wallace we'll try and get them but at the moment I don't think we I simply don't think we have them.

Simon Hart: David is right, it is quite difficult to quantify precisely who even at this stage has and has qualified. So, even I think with quite a lot of time to research we probably wouldn't be able to give you an answer which is absolutely watertight.

Q24 Dr Jamie Wallis: Okay. And finally, coming on to the job retention scheme, the UK Government job retention scheme, what idea would you have the number of businesses in Wales that have furloughed over say 50% of their employees?

David TC Davies: We just don't, it was a UK wide scheme and, you know, I think we've got some figures for the, for UK wide, but I think we don't have the we don't have the Welsh figures. We haven't been given them and I'm not sure that anyone has them at the moment.

Simon Hart: No, the only thing you can do is make a sort of a guess based on the UK wide figures, and make an assessment of how that would be, how that would apply in Wales. I'm looking at the numbers too, you know, in the UK 500,000 businesses are playing £4.5billion in the wages of furloughed staff and half a million firms have benefited from £6billion business grants. So, you can apportion to Wales and you've got a rough idea of what that would come to, but the figures are only on a UK wide basis.

Chair: Thank you. So, thank you, Jamie. I've got Robin Millar next, but Secretary of State and Minister, if we do creep over the 4:30 mark, do you either of you have to rush off straightaway, but if we strayed two or three minutes over that wouldn’t be a disaster?

Simon Hart: Fine by me. I've got a, I've got to be somewhere, a while after that but for a few minutes absolutely no problem at all.

Chair: No, your answers are excellent, and I wouldn't want to…so, Robin Millar, please.

Q24 Robin Millar: Thanks, Secretary of State. Good to see you again. I've got three questions for you. The first is a very simple one, but I'll get straight to it. Crises are often very good at revealing character, and within the few short months I've been an MP there have been two crises; one is the flooding locally of Llanrwst during the storms Dennis and Ciara which we had here, and also the COVID-19 crisis. I have to say, at times I've been disappointed in the narrowness of response I've seen both from the UK Government and also the Welsh Government and to be very specific by that, it's the response sometimes to questions I've asked for example about flooding, to be told by UK government, ‘that's a devolved matter’, and likewise by Welsh Government to hear at times, ‘oh, that's a UK Government matter’. And it seems to me there's a real risk of things falling into that gap in between when nobody thinks about the connectivity and the handover. So, the question is, what steps have you done, have you put in, have you taken to put in place, or to overcome that kind of handover problem? Simon Hart: Thank you. I think that I completely recognise the unbelievably frustrating scenario that you paint. And you know, we get one constituency there's a number of people who come to see all of us who may have been bring to our attention a problem relating, in particular to their situation around health, for example. And, you know, if we turn around as MPs and said sorry but you go in the wrong place and you don't go down the road to your Assembly Members, you know, all we would leave as a very exasperated and upset constituent, and I do get. I think that before coronavirus raised its ugly head, the position that we took and, you know, Boris Johnson was very integral in this, was to make sure that the relationship with Welsh Government was one based on, you know, on big vision stuff, on top level stuff, rather than to get him roiled in the tempting and occasionally gratifying arguments we can have a rather peripheral level of who does what. Boris understood and I hope we all understand that actually our residents and voters and businesses, expect from government, you know, competent leadership and accountability. And what I wanted to be able to do and I've had many conversations before coronavirus saying look, you know, we must be able to do this, it's not going to emasculate us in any way, it's not necessarily adversely affect our polling ratings. It's not going to threaten each other's, you know, existence on the governance map of the UK. It's just what people expect us to do. So actually, let's, you know, get on with it and engage in some sort of grown up problem solving, and then coronavirus came along, we had a real grown up problem to solve. And I think that has forced us more closely together. I don't think we can offer you a guarantee which says we’ve cracked this, but I do think it has, in a bizarre way, heightened the need for us to approach our politics in Wales in a slightly different manner. To be less paranoid about some of these things, and more…you know, I remember, if you've ever read Tony Blair's diaries, I suspect only half the people on this call might have done, but I did, during the Northern Ireland peace process that the world divided into two halves; big people and little people. And the little people could never get past the detail and the big people never lost sight of the ambition. And I want UK Government to be the big people who never lose sight of actually what we're there to do as a government for Wales.

Q25 Robin Millar: Thank you. That's a terrific answer actually because I agree with you completely. The second point is really to do with Wales as an economic entity. First of all, we don't really have a distinct and discrete economic identity as such, it's not a defined economic area it's split geography geographically etc. But really it's what steps do you see that you have taken or need to be taken to increase the amount of cross border working, recognising that Wales is an underperforming economy, recognising that, for example, our coastal communities are likely to be amongst some of the hardest hit communities in the country in the whole of the UK? So it's really this connection point of, being part of the UK, what needs to be done to strengthen cross border working to make sure that we get the maximum benefit from being parts of the UK?

Simon Hart: David may have some views on growth deals, and I know the Mid Wales Growth Deal has particular focus on that. All I say from my point of view as a, as a unionist, is that I think it is perfectly possible to have an incredibly vivid and visible national identity but also be entirely integrated when it comes to economic activity. I don't think those two things are contradictory in any way at all. A lot of the debates, you'll have heard and people on this Committee, people on this call would have heard around infrastructure, isn't about, you know, 10 miles of track here or a bypass there, it's actually about joining up the economic drivers of the UK in a consistent way. What I remember sitting in Llangollen with Boris Johnson at the time for our recent party conference and talked about the fact that infrastructure projects mean nothing unless they connect up the UK and connect up the world. And that's what drives economic activity. I'm really enthusiastic about that, and recognise that that involves people’s ability to operate cross border and a really act in an unrestricted manner where possible, but it doesn't threaten national identity I think sometimes we think people try to convince others you can have one or the other. I don’t believe that at all, I'm taking each person when it comes to that. But David may have a view on Mid Wales growth.

David TC Davies: Yeah, thank you very much. I mean all of the growth deals I think have the potential to create infrastructure, whether that’s physical or broadband which is going to be good for the, for not only for Wales, but for allowing businesses encouraging businesses to come in and to sell back to England and I obviously recognise political boundaries, and national boundaries or regional boundaries, but the economy doesn't recognise that and businesses don't recognise them. And all I can say is that the discussions I was having about growth deals was about how we can work better with regions across the rest of the United Kingdom.

Q26: Robin Millar: Thank you, Chair, one final question if I may, then please It's really speaks to Wales place in the world, because certainly before COVID-19, the question about Britain emerging in the post Brexit environment and where sat Wales. As you'll appreciate, you know better than I do, it has a fabulous history of exporting to the rest of the world. I was born in Bangor. Bangor has Port Penrhyn and from there slate was exported all over the world including to the roof of the US Treasury, which I happen to see some years ago. And so, that idea of Wales being small but packing a punch is something I was, I was raised with. The Welsh revivals, even, scattered faith and Christianity to four corners of the globe. But the concern I have is that when we look at entrepreneurial activity in Wales, when we look at start-up business, and we had Professor Dylan Jones-Evans come and give some evidence to us some meetings ago on the Shared Prosperity Fund, I can't help feeling that Wales is lagging behind. If I look at, for example, the recent offer of support that came from the Chancellor it identified businesses which had already attracted a quarter of a million pounds of equity. Now, fewer than 60 firms in Wales I believe have actually secured that level of funding since 2015. Now, that's quite extraordinary that it's so low. So, the question for you is what can we do, what can you do to help strengthen the appeal and the growth and success of entrepreneurial business in Wales?

Simon Hart: You may think I'm stealing somebody else's expression here but for me it's all about levelling up. It's actually creating a UK wide economy which doesn't necessarily prejudice against the more distant or arguably inaccessible parts of it and which is less reliant on the southeast of England, as the only place where it's worth doing business. I think that the way we attempted to articulate this during the sort of second half of last year, the election period and up until the beginning of coronavirus was around trying to make sure that if you were a budding entrepreneur with a really good idea that you didn't have to move to London in order to fulfil your dreams, that you could do it from Cardiff or Swansea or Llandudno, wherever it might be and it would be easier, easier to say that and do it. Okay, so what do we need to do in order to, to make that happen? Well actually we go back to some quite fundamental arguments around infrastructure, accessibility to key services and providing people, the sort of lifestyle and opportunities, which are as attractive as if you're in the Haverfordwest as if you're in Islington. I think for years we haven't quite got that right. And I think that we have a job in the Wales Office, one of the things we talk about, David and I talk about daily is actually, but even in the, in the, sort of, dusty corridors in Whitehall we have a daily battle reminding people that Wales is a force to be reckoned with rather than an afterthought. And one of the tasks that we've set ourselves is, and by the way, the sort of reconfiguration of the Cabinet Office and the way in which Boris Johnson is looking at the Union, strengthening the Union, has helped us quite a bit in that endeavour because there is now a Cabinet Office, sort of, unit, which is looking at a sort of equalising the way in which government work in the UK, notwithstanding the devolution. And so I think it’s frustrating in a way because I think we were on the cusp with the comprehensive spending review and the budget and all of those exciting things we wanted to do, of being able to sort of pull the sheet off and say this is how we're going to help Wales. But we, but we were, we had we have been temporarily interrupted in that endeavour.

Robin Millar: Thank you, gentlemen.

Chair: We appreciate the work you are doing for us. Thank you, before I bring in Geraint to close proceedings with his questions I think ,we were indicating Minister David Davis…

David TC Davies: Well, very quickly. Just the fact. Who would have thought a few months ago, that we could be doing what we're doing now holding a select committee meeting on video link? And I think if we're going to look for silver linings out of this disaster, it one of them might be to say to businesses, you don't have to be in the southeast of England, you know, I'd have to turn around and show you the view out my window the Cribyn mountain in the background there, you can do your business from a really beautiful part of the world, a fraction of the housing costs, probably, you know far less for office accommodation. You can make it work and we are showing how it can be worked, it's, you know, as long as we got the broadband and the IT links then we can we really can start selling Wales after this.

Chair: I think we all agree with that 100%. So, Geraint, you’re very patient Geraint.

Q27: Geraint Davies: And I agree completely with David and Simon's comments again there, and if I can ask about the economy, first of all, the figures from the Wales fiscal analysis at the Wales Governance Centre which suggests that in terms of spending, the Welsh Government has spent something around £2.3 billion, which is something like half a billion pounds short, what we've been given through the budget and Barnett consequentials, and I know people in the IFS particular David Phillips there are saying, you know, we should really be looking at getting extra funding which is linked to our demography, you know, the older population or sickness, and there's various sort of factors. I'm wondering whether you're happy to sort of press that we do get what we need and perhaps the money is based on the cost of delivering an equivalent service in relation to coronavirus given our different demography.

Simon Hart: Do you want to kick-off David, or do you want me to?

David TC Davies: Well I think if Mr. Davies is sort of getting a change in the Barnett formula, I would always be careful what we wish for. We know that under the current situation Wales will get about 115% of Barnett consequentials of money that is spent in England. I've heard on many occasions and thought about the argument for needs-based formula, although I wouldn't suggest that it's some sort of panacea. Because we've already seen what happens when you bring in a so-called needs- based formula for local government funding in Wales. There'll be plenty of local authorities who think that they're not getting what they need at all, and that the way in which the formula was drawn up means at some local authority areas do far get far less than they actually require so I'm quite happy with having a guarantee, a guaranteed amount of funding that gives Wales more than regions we're getting England…

Q28 Geraint Davies: I don’t think you’re understanding here, there is a case to look at Barnett formulas, I'm just saying in terms of the coronavirus extra money that's been made available that there's a case to be made that we should have the money to provide an equivalent service in Wales, and we should press for that because there is a differential on the extra money and, putting to one side the block grant, the money that's being spent on the coronavirus crisis and whether you're prepared to stand up for Wales to, you know, ask for the money we need, so we can provide an equivalent service.

David TC Davies: We definitely would like to get more money but I've spent…you know, more money…a lot of money has flowed our way it's over £2.1billion as a result of the coronavirus split of course if we if we can get more well we'll have more but I suspect at some point, there'll be a limit to the largesse of the Treasury in this.

Q29 Geraint Davies: Yeah, second question on the economy in some sense, fair to say mentioned strengthening the Union, and I'm all in favour of that. Again, if you look at the population of the Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol population, it's around 3 million people, it's equivalent to the Leeds Manchester, sort of, you know, quite a bit…

Sorry, I accidentally muted, I do apologise. All I'm saying is that there's a 3 million population for Bristol, Cardiff, and Swansea, we get about, you know, one train an hour or something, connecting them up. And in the case of Leeds-Manchester there's about five [million] now and I was just wondering whether in your sights, after the coronavirus issue, we're looking to invest along the line to what you're seeing in terms of strength in the union and in fact the rail infrastructure to simply inject more life into South Wales.

Simon Hart: I’ll have a go at answering that and David can come in behind me. If happy. I mean absolutely, I'm a believer in in economies being most effective when they are, when they are active. It's all about stimulus, it's all about incentive it's all about a combination of factors. There is going to be this discussion which is a sort of three-way argument between economists, epidemiologists and behavioural scientists, which will need to be umpired by politicians and, and in that there is going to be there are going to be some very strong arguments about disease control which we need to square with very strong outcomes by the effects of ongoing constraints on the economy. That's the big challenge that the politicians like us in the weeks ahead, but you can be absolutely sure that from I think I can speak to David, my way of being, I want us to be really active and enthusiastic and focused on reinvestment, reenergisation of the Welsh economy. That will be the quickest means by which we can climb out of the difficult place we are at the moment.

G30 Geraint Davies: Shall we move on to another quick questions I know we're short of time. I simply want to ask, I know the Secretary of State has mentioned before, in conversations issues about the transition period for Brexit. We know the election result and you know that we are Brexiting, the issue really is that no one anticipated the coronavirus crisis, and there is a concern amongst business and more widely that given the coronavirus issue has impacted on our negotiating position and people don't want to end up with a no deal situation, in particular, on top of the lockdown, and basically it impacts upon our trade and our jobs, our health and our food, and I was wondering whether on the part of Wales you're happy to make the case for giving us a bit more time for the transition period for Brexit.

Simon Hart: Well I know you raised that question with me when we had a conversation last weekend, and so thank you for that. I mean, uncertainty, even before Covid, has always long been the one word that was used more often than any other from businesses across the UK, let alone in Wales, and it's absolutely essential that we do not know follow one period of uncertainty with another. That's why EU negotiations are ongoing as we speak. The team are in place. Activity’s going on, and the policy hasn't changed because the view that we have taken, is that despite all of the horrors that coronavirus has thrown at us, is that to now inject further uncertainty about where we're going as far as our relationship, economic relationship with Europe would be to exacerbate that already difficult situation. So our policy position, is it is absolutely possible and desirable to stick to our guns, and to deliver as we promised we would

Q31 Geraint Davies: May I ask then, obviously, businesses have attempted to adapt itself to get ready for exit and Brexit. Now they suddenly have to refocus their efforts on adapting in the world of coronavirus, and I suppose so is government. So we are in a sort of uncharted territory and when these decisions were made originally this wasn't known. So, is there still an opportunity at least for reflection on this within government, or is I whatever happens we're just going to…

Simon Hart: If you wanted to push me, I would say that I hope that the our EU colleagues, led by Michel Barnier are actually also considering very carefully, their position in this regard, and are looking to do a sensible, prompt, timely deal as per the plan, because they have a responsibility on delivering on time as well. So my view is that anything other than the existing, you know, direction of travel would equal a much more damaging uncertainty than the alternative. And so our position, and we've made we have made this very clear to Mark Drakeford by the way, is very clear, and it is business as usual.

Chair: We’ve gone beyond our allotted time, so Secretary of State, and David TC Davis can I thank you very much to both of you for being so generous with your time. As you can see from the depth and the breadth of the questions on the, on the demand side, there's a lot of pent up interest in questioning you about how you're working with Welsh Government, at this moment of crisis, and without putting you too much on the spot, I would hope that you would feel able to agree to do another one of these sessions, very soon.

Simon Hart: Absolutely, I find them incredibly helpful and we know you were at your disposal.

Chair: Well I'm very grateful for that in normal times we would normally do this, as you know, these, these kind of sessions with the Secretary of State, over a much longer interval, but given the phase that we're in and given the importance and the fast-paced nature of the work you're doing, I think if we were to have a session with you in a matter of weeks, rather than months that would be extremely helpful.

Simon Hart: Very happy. Yeah, absolutely, count us in.

Chair: Thank you to you and pass on our thanks and best wishes to team of civil servants as well. And with that I'll thank my team and we'll bring the meeting to a close.