'~~~guIatory File C

UNITED STATES ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION

IN THE MATTER OF: I IN

.2 1.;'

Place

Date - Thnsda, 7 11 17 Pages9T -

DUPLICATION OR COPYING OF THIS TRANSCRIPT BY PHOTOGRAPHIC, ELECTROSTATIC OR OTHER FACSIMILE MEANS IS PROHIBITED BY THE ORDER FORM AGREEMENT

Telephone: (Code 202) 547-6222

ACE - FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. 0 Official Reporters 415 Second Street, N.E. Washington, D. C. 20002 NATIONWIDEUEGLU37 COVERAGE A~izu:py \'g. Gf375

d UNITED STA.ET OF AR..A ATO ¢l ' .' 4B-GY... C TSI'I3,

- - - a -. C Ca - -. - a. CC a.

In the m..tter of CONSOLIDTD EDISON COMPP2 OF 1~3Ck~t NOC $0.-247 9 NEW yoa,a INC. 2 6 .(Indian Point st"' v°°" tNO

Croton--nHudson New York I 9 1972 Th r day,, 7 DeCCMKJr 5

IZ rmnt, at 9 00 a m. . eco e'ed, pilriavant to adjou •BEFORE

, Csq. -satet .lAtomit 5k'MUEL W JENSCHO and Licensing Board.

DR. JOHN C. GY1R, member.

.R' R. B. BRSGGS, Member. I' 17 APPEAWAKNESt

is the following chang heretofore noted+ with (As Y. St. , AlbanY, N. 19 BRUCEB L. o MITIND 112 State MR, Energy Council of on behalf of the Atomic York - NOT PRESENT 20 tThi Ste.te or New I AttorneyV onGenera beha Lf MR. JAES CORCORAN , AssistantS.. teStateof Nework- --. . &.... ? 11 of: thme State of New York -,pR'ESENT :.,3 21 4 5 I I 6876

P GeckleK 4 Robe

G Moishe Si ,an-.Tov 7 Charles N.oCartor

8 Mary Jana OeotDa~n

9 ~Wlliam Yee 6928 Charles Couthm-t

15

I

20 I.W 5

I 6s77 dd #i O.C E E D I N G S, 0 m P R Please. come to o:der 0 CI-VAIRNAN JEISCI: yesterday we in .'c-) 3 1 believe during the day of transfe rrig the hearings consideration of the Possibility of the Board indicated. 5 in this proceeding to WashJington, we S the Atriioc Energy Cot.kission that it was Our Impression that at Cr-O-o-Fn-HudEqfl neax '7 desired that this h-earing be here Point 2 so that members of the site of the plant of Indian to attend and hear the the public culd have an opportunity the more folly infoimed. con erning p0o.ceedings and be perhaps by daily attendalnce a dhearing progress of these matters

the evidence as it is presented a full of course, is majntafining 13 The Cor5mission, proceedings here in the viciniy 11-1 and col"Plete record t se public the local depository 1s at the 5 of the site. I believe and school here in -d is region 6 libra.y in the Henry Hudson proceedings of course, to follow the 17 the public is invited, and being informed of all the by reading the daily transcript in is in the proceedirg So that .19 forma.. filings that are, made record does afford themaintenance of the public sense, the 20 an opportunity, and it may be a better opportunity'for

21 they wrili this proceeding because parties to be informed tout material read and study the written ave an opportunity to may give then a better in the transcript which 24 included after all of the proceeding. 25 understanding 6 87 8

the parties dav before 2mil 1 The Boar.d in its inquiry of 2 yesterday. as to the convenience to be served by trarsfer-ing no S the hearing to Washington, did note tha.t the public ha.s

A been attending these sessions of t hearings for the past

5 two or three seasions in any sijmeabl-e= e may have 6 Yesterday it was our impression that there iost 7 been one or two members of the public hee-e othc #ise, .... or the a of the people attending here are assoai-.e.d way in 9 other of t-he parties, assisting in so",.le techni.calI 10 the proceeding . 11 The Board conc-1ades that the prpose thit the

forte he.a.ig, has 12 Atomic Energy Co.mission had in mind these several se.s ons of 13 been fulfilled in the sense that fulfilled and it woul_ 14 hearings since December of 1970 has been of the Ca.missioil to have the is no longer serve the purpose public does IS expense of this type of proceeding here since the

-to be informed. The Board 17 not apparently desire to attend .of the public indicates they 18 would infer that the abseince the proceedings from the 19 prefer to be informed concerning "aintainedin this region. 20 public record that is at note that the Staff has had, 2i The Board did including ,this one, a large 22 several of these sessions, who are away from their regular 23 compleminent of personnel schedule that the Staff appazrently 2A duties- and knowing tie when they are in the Washington '25 has, -they can be expected 6879

chores by after area to give attention to their cont.iflinifg offi~es which perinits 3Ii hours work i n the-Wasihington or Bethesda 1ore expexditioUz.Sly the work of the Commissi-On to go forwardi of Officials awayu 4 rather than having a. large complement

their regulax place of duty. it#% would better So -the Board, also concludes that iLf the Ihearing in thiLs 7 serve -tile intetests of thea Coawssiofl so that thcza work of proce eding were tzansferred to Wshington opportunities th~e Staff tl.Le -Co~Maissiof can go forward at all

10 has to attend to their duties. cons ide-ratiols, asking thel parties 11 w3 were in oux indicated its view; the Hiudson 12 for their X-es-consezs The Staff consu:ltred W~~it .1 anCciate52 River Fishermen' s Association has it convenient -L. hav,;e the and indicated that it w-oul d find

further sessionls in Washington. 17 ~oncil' Does the Applicant.6 have a view 15 matter? We agree thtthe: 14R. TROSTEN: Yes, Hr, Chairman.

complentent of meycibers of the public 19 h-as -not been a very large purpose that there would be somec useful 20 here and it Iis trile However, we moving the heariflq to Washington. 21. served by the Ato-mic Energy also feel that the basic policy1 of * 22 such as this in the area SCoiurnissicfl for holding hearings 23 it should be or- thle facil.ity Is a good one and -that * 24 it may w~ell be thait continued Ai t-his particu7Lar proceeding9 6830

to t-he the Pl~blic may c'los0 at-tend 4ml~ additionl members of and,~ therefore, it aPPears hearing astehearing progres~ses fteBadWudCniu 2 t us that'i ,ol epeeal_

in CLJ~ to-nHE, ds 4 to hol~d t-he heaIrig hereC~I

by ruenbers is an inteet expressed 'Shtrgr i rdi~there fth considerati~onl to 7 ftep~biteBoard will give

requeo,. from mombers of the -thematerUntil we hear some ions Work and we feel tehat the Cc!mniss 9 Public in this regard,~ this be better served by trnfern 10 reef~~ltC ill

1.1 procceeding lto Washing~ton.

further vo wil~ be~ glad to givc-e 13a Vi d in tisreard,

make soyT-- adjustinent the matter and perhaps 114 considerati~on to Sat a later time. party to the expressionl by any other 16 Any other 17 proceeding? (No response.) here that have see any represenltatives 19~ ~ 1 o' record, at least. Sbeen entered or. the this sessionl note, however, that after 21~ wightm of the Attorney it was a representative Syesterday, 1 believe I don't see here this State of New York whom' 23 General of the Monday -- he dorn't think~ he was here W24 morning i-zn fact, 1. he came in Wednesday he re Tuesdaly I guess 25 may have been to did state that they would object 9 ~i! afternoon; but he I just din 't .know the basis I * .asferring the proceeding. that assertiOn. We indicated we 8 upon which he would make hid"h'hrenow, puornin~ I. do not see A£ would hear him this 6

7 8

.9

0I

14

5 16

17

9123 18

19

20

*22

23 i2 6882

this proceeding arl I lie perhaps in his absence from 2 has not been informied of the expressions by t-he Board

3 respecting its suggestions about moigthe hearin.g to

5 Perhaps if he had a. opportunity to read the 6 transcript, he can be better informed of the position of 0 ifored he ~pes~ion by Burdtwt 7 -the Soard; and if he desires to conmi*anuicate 2urther with

a the Board when he has time to attend to tis proceeding, his suggestions 9 we will be pleaed to give consideration to

10 as weli.

11 We feel that perhaps he has not had an opportun-ity and under 1 because he haz been absent, to fully appreciate

113 stand the views of the Board.

The Board is endeavoring to locate a hearing

I can 15 room for Washington and perhaps during the morning

16 have further inforration to anunounci publicly on the record

-the locatioz of the hearing. Aflter the session last night,

the 18 I might also note that it is my recollection that doing, 19 parties have again, as the Board appreciates their

20 endeavored to work out a proposed agenda for the session

after today and it was indicated that the Hudson River

Fishermean's Association will be prepared to cross-examine Is that 2 the Applicant's witnesses starting on Tuesday.

correct, Mr. Macbeth?

MR. MACBETH : That' s correct, Mr. Chairman. ar2

CHAIRmm JENSCH: Ver.y wmvl). We wili plan on

2 ~hat basis and I und rsto-d Applicaxt couxsel: today, s

3 agenda would include an ofnatnof Msrs ighton

4 and Carter and one other.

* MR. KoR &IA .; Siman-Tv.

CHAIRMUAN JENSCH : Si.'Tcv yes.

Amd after that ez-mnatcon we wo d rces Vo

reconveas Tuesday and the 'Board w,'111 plan acm :ng1v

9 Which witness do you dapsir, fL 2 paiP .

i.0 counsel?

MR. TROSTEN: We desire to :t'1. M ' Simaki-Tov o

CHAIRMAi JENSCH: Would he r esum thc stand,

14. please?

MR. TROSTEN: I would !iks to rektroducv to the

to interrogal.a Mr. 16 Board Dr. John Lawier-. We would like

Siman-Tov through Dr. Lawle as a technically qual..i£fed

interrogator.

19

20

21

22

23

24 .'r 41 . 8a4

U.Whereupon,

2 ROBERT P. GECK.',UxR, 3 GEORGE W. KNIGHTGA,

4 YLOSPE SIMAN-TOV,, CARTR,' 5 CHARLES £4.

6 9-iIAR! JANE OESTMPNN, and

YEX 7 WILLIAPI .d, resumed the stand on behalf of the Regulatory S. xod and 9 having been previously duly Bwor r were exami

10 testified further as follows tO Section 2'? 3 11 MR. KAEAN: I think. puvuant Ttostan hould ma-.Y 1Te .ke, d 12. of the Comnnssion's rules, Mr. qualificatiorz 13 of prima facie showing of Dr. s

14 for the line of questioning he wishes to pursue. say tha14. 15 CHAIRMA JENSCII: I had int.3nded to had lndica,'Gd his previous appearance ao a witness here s a new field, perhaps competence in many fields. if there you do so, we should have a statement in that regard. Will

scouasel? 19 Applicant' Dr. MR. TROSTEN: Would it be satisfactory, his general Chairman, if I simply asked Dr. Lawlear to state

background?

JEDSCH : Yes. 23 CHAI50M1-UN MR. TROSTEN: Would yvu please state your

and experience briexfly 25 professional qualifications 6885 ar4 a with respect to this particular dro:Ss -Sa"-nati"o?

DR. LAWLER: This particular cross-exELination

has to do with Chapter 3 in the Finf.1 Steinent whIch

deals with theramal discharge -atters.o On thi,. topic I

have been engaged in the prediction of the effect of t-her mal 6 discharges from power plants, Indian Po int and others on

the Hudson River, and other water boaIs since 1967

8 specifically with respect to taper xatze effects; and pi.o r

9 to 1967, with respect to other types of dischai-ges.

10 CHAIRMAN JENSCH: In what way were you in-erested?

I I mean a lot of citizens are Interested -.n it, too1 but

12 what have you been doing about it? What studies have you

1.3 been making about thermal dischargse and generally what

14 have you been observing, if you could just give us a little

15 background in that regard?

16 DR. LAWLER: The particular studies that I have

17 been involved in, I have conducted, deal with the prediction

I8 using mathematical methods, using hydraulic models, using

19 field studies to predict or to determine the teu-i.erature

20 distributions that can be expected in the %.aterway given

21 the -- a certain amcunt of heat to be discharged from a

22 power plant..

23 CHAIRMAN JENSCH: Have you made actual ieasure

?A ments, for instance, from fossil fuel plants of plume.

25 locations and expansions after the point of release into 6386 ar5 H the body of water and t:hat sort of thingi?

2i DR~. LAVILER: 'Zo, sir, vie hcave. 41 CHAIRM4AN JEN SCH: Are you a mrne ooz? 4 DR. L~AWLER: No, sir I am not.

ChNL1IAM JENSCH: What io your acade-rmlc bacgoundll Qollegea 6 ~DR. LAWLER; I graduated- from Mahittax

7 with a civil cginering degree primarily i.n the area of

sanitar'y egLnerng. Savitary engineering dealt primaxril1y

that a gex.nerated L),to the texu i nvirope.-tal en inerrg

Inthese later ve-%ars. CHAIWOW JENSCIIJ: Did you say de!emrtlg?

13 .(Laughter.)

114DF-I. LAWLER: N~o, air,,. Just generating. I then received a mastra degred in ii

in 1958. Mydegree from the-Manhattan College was in 1955,

Iof Rutgers Unive.-Wty fromt 1960 to 1965, an~d my primary

interest while at Rutgers wat; in the developmenit of

S mathpmatical models' and the instruction in engineering 6887 ar6 I mathematcs and the applicaticn o% maathemtics to enginering

proble0zn again w!th a particular emphasis on Vi~e distr.ibution

both contao.inan-a 'and ivater quality pal-am6'-Mt3 i.n

natural bodies of wat6le. a 2

17

10

16

is 14 15

20

7

18

19

20 21

23

* 24

25 3 6888

CHAIMUM4- JENSCHM- What projeclt s have yoli w.orked t 2 on Ead :Eor vihn1_ empic7Ors i-nd that typo o:f thi.ag kr.,~ odi es 3 11 to beat discharges in bodies of water zinc., in wh at b

4 o:F water have you2 studied?

DR. UMWXLER9 With respect to heat discharge fromu

power pl~ants, vve have worked at !?,i Power plants onlLh 0 (A'S 0 1

7 Aiver for Consolidated ',-aison Company, for -the

83 Orminge--Rockland . and for Central Hudson Gas ;) 9 aid Eleactri-c Corporation and for- the YN1agra-Mohe.,wk

10.. Corporat,j.Wl. These four Utilities l ha've pla tes I located on the Hudson lRive r aIt on e POLIt or 'anotChexr

1 have also wor'ked in the east rivor at several

of Con Edison'is plants and we hav.--e -worked in the Lrthur MUll

is. the body of water separating the Staten Island from~ New

SJerse.

We have also worked on power plants on: Lake

pred:f.ctionel' 17 &Dtario and these studies involve both mathematical

SThey~ involve hydraulic model studies and they invol.ve

field studies at plants -- in the case of exi3ting Plants.

S0oma of these plants are presently, exiating,

new. facilities., 21 o p*.erating facilities, and others are proposed or .2 OUAXRDO.V JENSCH: And your Afield studies have included bf flume moitoring the spread of th e -gl-e and the depth the

.Edan the temporature gradients involved? DR~. UJWLER: Yes, sir, that is correct. 6889

ak 2CJ C tAN JFSCHi Ty ob2eCh.of to participatxon

Sby, Dr. LaW1rT? S ,R, i',~l~via :.NobjectioN o 101o

4 )R. jACBT ITs o oJjeGctiOn

,.- gj.- JENS wi.l you prkoceed? the record that a g1Ro TRLOS3TEMN i Sight note for,:

- c i n s ateat time he was 7 statemenk' t of Dr ,awlerS-q

S originally sworn as a witness appear' at pagce 4007 oF

9 trnscripto

10 CHAIRAN JNSC Proceed. To, j Nt J a procedural matterC we have

2 'nw obtained adeCquate copies o' the letter from 10, 1972, forwarding answers 13 .,fr nKaa to me dated November and I ask that 14 to requests for. informeion and for duments note that this letter 15 .. would like to..- have the record in the ranscrip of 6 n elosuresit Will be included ' o 16 and itsen.ith Board. that is satisfactory to the 17 today z hearing if 8 CHAIRTN J ENSCH,. Yes.• follcws.) 19 (The document

20

21

*22

23 O 24 25 ......

UNITED STATES ,. I , rrl ATOMIC ENERGY COMMIISSION I , - WASHINGTON. D.C. 20545

NOV, 1 I

Leonard M. Trosten, Esq. -LeBoeuf, Lamb, Leiby & MacRae ,., 1821 Jefferson Place, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20036 Ii

In the Matter of Consolidated, Edison Company of New York, Inc. (Indian Point Nuclear Generating Station, Unit No. 2) -Docket No. 50-247 . -

Dear Mr. Trosten:

u . o - 1972,7t1o -am ftr arding. her20e*y h..

W the staff responses to the seven itemized matters related to the staff analysis in the Final Environmental Statement.

Sincerely,

...... ar a ...... : .-...... ~ 2,~*Myro, Karman 2, .* . 'ortslfor EC Regzulatory Staf

Enclosure: Cy of Con. Ed's.Request . of.10/20/72, ._:;_' i . : ......

0*i: .. I

-RESPONSES TO CONSOLIDATED EDISON'S REQUESTS OF OCTOBER -20, 1972 Below are listedthe responses to the specific items raised by Consolidated

Edisnina leter f October20, 1972...... in a- l ...... "

1. Applicant's Request: In general, a listing of documents whether published or not, other than those listed in the Final Environmental Statement (FES) prepared or considered by the staff in reaching its conclusions relative to the following "factors responsible for adverse effects" stated in Section VIIA. of the FES, I.E.: "1. Entrainment of large numbers of planktonic organisms in

. the once-through cooling system.

2.;2'-- Imiingement of large numbers of various fish species on the intake screens.

3. Discharges of heated water to the Hudson River..

4. Discharges of toxic amounts of residual chlorine or chloramines to the Hudson River.

6. Reduction of dissolved oxygen concentrations .in the effluent water." Staff Response: The primary references used to provide the data base for the.

analyses of biological damage in the areas listed above are cited in the Draft and

Final Environmental Statement, particularly in Sections II and V and in Appendices.

II-I, V-1 through V-3.

'. . nn

-2 0..L

2. Applicant's Request: A listing of the documents prepared or considered by the Staff in reaching -the conclusion that the environmental and economic impact of a closed'cycle cooling system is acceptable..

Staff Response: The major documents the Staff relied upon to evaluate " alternate cooling systems were the applicant's Supplement No. 3 to the:

and infor-. Environmental Report on Benefit-Cost dated February 15, 1972

mation on alternatives in Section 2.5 of the applicant's Supplement No. 1

to the Environmental Report dated September 9, 1971. Other references.

used included those listed in Section XI, pages XI-76-79, particularly

References 3, 27-38, 43 and 44.

. ...

* 0~ of.the documents (and particular portions 3. Applicant's Request: A listing

thereof) relied upon by the Staff in preparing the following tabulations:

a. Figures V-12, V-.13, V-14 and V-15 (pp. V-57 to V-60)

b...' Figure V-.16 (p. V-62)

c... :Figure XII-2 (p. XII-37) . -

Staff Response: Figures V- 12' V- 13 and V-14 in the'FESwere prepared usin g.. v

the Hudson River fishery data presented in Table 1,. (Enclosure A) obtained from

. the reference "The Hudson; Fish and Wildlife" by the Hudson River Valley Com-.

.. i .mission, 1966 and the striped bass landings by region, 1930-66 (Enclosure B) by Science T. S. Y. Koo, "The Striped Bass Fishery in the Atlantic States,. Chesapeake

i -(2): 73-93June 970oint running,,. averages were used in plotting the ,.,.

data in Figs. V-12 and V-13. Plots in Figs. V-13 and V-14 were made using . " regression. -analyes of the data from Enclosures A and B. The datainFig. V-13

and the S.. are those with a 4 to 6 year difference between the Hudson landings

- Atlantic catch and those in Fig V-14 involve a 1-year difference between the

. .Atlantic catch and the Hudson catch.

- The data for the New York effort for 1947-61 used in Fig. V-15 are presented in

Table 8 (Enclosure C) in the above-referenced Koo's article and that for the

(Enclosures Hudson River catch in Table 1 of Enclosure A. The same information

landings A and B) was used to obtain the plot in Fig. XII-2 but only the Atlantic

.-after 5 years were plotted with the Hudson landings. The plot is similar to Fig.

V-12 except for a'5-year shift. -4-

Figure V-16 (p. V-62) was obtained by plotting the information on white perch

' from the New York University "Ecological Survey of the Hudson River," Progress

"Hudson Reports No. 2 (1966), No. 3 (1968), and No. 4-(1969) and the report Supplement River. at Indian Point, Annual Report 4/.16/68 to 4/15/69" (Appendix R of

of the data from No..l to the Environmental Report, September 9, 1971.) Copies these.references used for these graphs areprovided. Information on white perch

year (O+) and. for 1966 consisted -of the average catch of 131 for the young of the

from:, 87 for 1 year and older (1+) class of white perch for a total of 218 obtained

the Shores :Table 18 on page 195 in !'Distribution and Abundance of Fishes Along E. Leff, of the Lower Hudson During the Summer of 1966," by A .Perlmutter,

Hudson _E E. Schmidt, R. Heller, and M."Siciliano in Hudson River Ecolgy,

white perch is in River Valley Commission of New York, 1966. The 1969 data on Annual Table 13, page 118'and Table 15, page 123 of the New York University's

Report for 1969.

V, page Figure V-6 was obtained from information in Reference 41, Section

Costa Steam V-95 of the FES - "Studies on Fish Preservation at the Contra

Plant of the Pacific Gas and Electric Company," by J.E. Kerr in the Fish

• 1953. Bulletin No. 92, California Department of Fish and Game,

32 and that on the Data on the one inch fish are taken from Figure 14, page

includes information two inch fish .are from Figure 15, page 32. -The text

on the one-half inch fish. - -. ..

4. Applicant's Request: 'Provide any document prepared by the

:Staff relating to the impingement estimate of 2-5 million fish (page iii) and the methods used to compute suchestimates."

Staff Response: The number, 5 million fish, killed at Indian Point Unit No. 2

of was .calculated on the basis of data supplied.by the applicant in its testimony

• . October 19, 1971, in hearings before the.Atomic Safety and Licensing Board,

bs). namely, the estimated weight of fish caught per day at reduced flow rate (437

Further, each fish was estimated to weigh a quarter of an ounce. Over a 182.5-day

period (1/2 year, 6 months) the estimate is then:

S . .437lbs/dayx 16 oz/lb . 30,000 fish per day . (1) 0.25 oz/fish..

.30,000 x 182.5 = 5.457 million' 5.5 million fish per (2) - 6:"-n. : . . " ". . "

results of the arithmetic .- If the approximation of 30,000 is replaced by the absolute

fish for -. operations in. (1) above, the calculation yields an estimate of 5.1 million

10%. For a three . . six months instead of 5.5 million, a difference of less than

2. For the remaining 6 months, ' . month period the values should be divided by

thus the 5.5 million is "it is expected that no appreciable fish kills will occur, and

an estimate for the year.

i - - _ ...... 0.. 6 ......

Staff 5' Applicant's -Reguest: "Provide any document prepared by.the the computer program for . - containing the mathematical derivation and the Staff s entrainment model discussed in Appendix V-3."

on November 1, Staff Response: As discussed in a telephone conversation

counsel, the response 1972, between the Staff's Counsel and the Applicant's

-persons which .. . . would b best given -b.y discussions between -the appropriate

the'information is not could be readily arranged. The basis for this is that We are submitting a in a readily understood form and is quite voluminous. telephone conversation. sample program run in accordance with the referenced

. . ..

0 : ..." : " 77,

6. Applicant's Request: "Provide the computer program and samples of the actual computer printouts referenced on page 111-41."

Staff Response: We are enclosing a program listing and printouts which

are duplicates of that used to prepare the actual tables in the FES. After

which .. the-document-- had beenprinted, an -erorin the program was found

drawn. changed some of the Values calculated but did not affect conclusions A second, -corrected, set of printout is also provided .

to .----- ..-

-.------8

of the documents (and.particular 7. A cant's Request: Provide a listing Table V-3, portions thereof) relied upon by the Staff in preparing V-1-7, and V-51, respectively." Figure V-i, and Figure V-10 on pages V-15,

prepared from the data contained Staff Response: Table V-3 . V-15 was .. inApx.v Sction D,. A-V19to 22 of the FES,:::.%..--

- ia plo~~ ,> .. i :/:-: -FgureFi V-,v-:p.v- V-17 is alot in which the :values or points are numbers which erer if the column arekeydTbl V-,n p 18.Th talewoul be

The reference are given in column 4. _.headed !'No were headed "Point No."

of Tabl V4., I. :.Fi..e..:..,0-.... . V.5.isa-pl of .data obtaine d -fr s6urces-., All plots .

,ig:exp LoO.,a efepne 8,pi'Vi9 exce-t thaf labeled ,Lovett' ca from the data in.Reference 18, P. V-94,

Survey: Final Report,' June..1969 Rayheo opany,.!"Indian_.Point Ecologijcal in Figure V-10 applicant. The top curve (Plankton Tow) October 1971," for the the from Tables 6-2 and 6-8 depending on is based on the grand average of data

surface in Table 6-1. The second curve on number of sampling stations outlined curve on bottom trawl from Table 5-2 of trawl came from Table 5-3 and the third

data in Table,5-4 of Reference 18. Reference 18. The bottom curve is from

data in Appendix E (Vol. III) of Quirk, The plot lab eled "Lovett" came from the of York City, "Environmental Effects Lawler and Matusky, Engineers, New - . --.----

. _•. -9 ,..

Bowline Generating Station on the Hudson River," Vols.I-IV, March 1971. 9 (Tables 10 through 29 contain the information Which is summarizedon page

of AppendixE )

.- ......

Tab I.1. HUDSON RIVER'FISHERY FOR ANADRA!OUS1 CATADRMOUS AND BRACKISH WATER SPECIES 1913

'-I .. ..-. Tal .. HUSO , , .• dES,, 1913-.

. _ American Shad : 1..e'ring .StripedBabs.i American Eel Sturgeon ."_ Year Pounds Value, Pou:n.s .Value Po.',sA . 1 PoundrVai- .Value. .

hd. :mrc. Hing 93 IS:68i. Bass: -. rg"" "" 1913 .87,115 $92,175 $99 2,572 '220,359 0, 1917 .38,304 49,935 1,6.5,007 001 1918 220,602 '-88, 22,.? ': 9 449 182,052 22,015 1922 " 123,324 73,431 536 14,657, 29,454 1275 . 1925 110,359 24,030 92,13 4344-45 47' 12149 3,507 5,668 1929 157,895 146,835 . . 3785 i 79" 3,022 ..

1930 . 165,0041931.i. 133,504 - . 1 3.5033,142 .133-> 4 .I,51,901 1•• 1931 " 342,611 '185,707' 5 330 33,142 -" 581

1932 397,7-54 L,432. ' 4508'I,265 ,i62, . 1933 347,656 28,156 -5.54031 '174,969"2 20 16,06 1657 312

1934 7 314,200 •.. : 2 4,1 3.0 118.-6 7::4,46.4,.12,69 5 . 639 :: 1935 - 453,300 -74405 18 667' ', 24263 4,464 1936 - 834,400 1 203,282 20 :" 27,352 3 563" 1937 976000 227,865 28:ii.54":, ' 47,544 i'i':i1366 1938 972,500 ' 244,321 " 24, 579 111,429 ::'2,530 1939 1516,400...9,.06... .937 "", 4,1 249 :1940 . ,297,700 66,7,03' 17 3 -2,610 34$3. <5.543 23,149 1,792 3 726 783,7: I.. 1941 -- ,341, 000 222 975 21 336;'.. 24,036 530 .1943. 1,640,000 155,800. 169. 056 4.608 .. 4 27;107 2559 1 5855 1 94 1 651 200 1 57644 60:;. .37,044 5"': 4 1945 2,091,300 '123 619 . .1-79.. 50 '1 -1779034 -1.946- - . 1,446,900 131,302, 50,22.; 61,790 8 359

1947 957,4 .06,19 48,453 , 30,952 3 173 . 1948-- - 1,121,600. • - . -90. 468.4 38,301 ; : ,' . ' 29,236 10 655 I 1952 " 437 ,00 :88 501 T, 6,822 1,616 ,153 465000 62 ,744 70,753' 2119 1,.52:1. 6459 . 327 740

1955 6503,696 ,' .1.-'"'ri 7 ,4 9, '66 .3, 346 1956 579,734, 67 ,904': 92 ,824: 4 9,314 1.56 1957 -468,205 ,' 56, 100.:. 3: 1.0',400 6,100 09.8433,463 ':,6' ,00" .77,100! ! . 10,400 '6,300 1959 492,468 45,600 1010,1003,'0 N13300 1960L .-273,93," 38,407 38,200 1,86 132,900.. .1.3.33 3,600 544 .3803,)OO

196123,45 33, 800 0700 ' 16,000 100 1962 228,149 0:3,20 48,100 6,500 2,500 112 54 5 32300 "1 09. -.'.'393-;0: 7,1007 93 2 0 785.. I -4. 200 16,993 _37 ,000." 1 ,496 0 205 3,400 ' 415 : 628 9ii ...... I

" - " , . .A 1930-66i0 TALE 2. Striped bass landings by region., thousands of pounds)..' .(in

New Middle South Year England Atlantic Chesapeake Atlantic Total ,40 -1930- 89 205 1,653 457 2,404"1,668 1931 -.:-.90 :-135 1,116 .327 7 _1932 62 52 :1,028:. 507.. 1,629 TABLE 8. Ne4- York- striped, bass.statistics for- haul' 1934i:k . -40 833. (1,369)1:' seine catches. 1947-66. - 642 362 (1,097) 1934 _ .-. '935::"22..'..1 62 " .'1,302 " . (1,951) Length -. .'.Catch *.2,3831 768 (3,62 1). of net, Catch. :7 of total (lbs.) per, .1VT'3450 '405 /3,016 713 4,584 '000 lbs. : ..landing yards 100 yards- 1938 301 .311!' 2,869 .. 523.. 4,004 147 1939 285 446 2,692 340 3,763 65,20;) 60.0. 225 . *:1,839 540 2_0 247 ::1940 147 :382 2, 089 "- 85,504; :'69.3 289 1941 (3,213) S80,81.3 732 ' 592 94.6 3,286 (4,464) , -87,403 i":484*:: :"!: ..93.5 1942 219 419 $ . • :. ." , • -004A.::" 554 '514 (5,186) S90.4.; 525 ;943 216 566 4,545 540 6,225 "2 107,943 391 ' 944 341 799 110,29; 431 88.7 1945 317 782 3,664 610 5,313 87,965 410 85.0 466 .946. 406 963 3,699 (5,772) :.48,303 382 .-87.0 .9471' 119. :--413 : 4::'406 3 ):.":! (5,299) : ---24,883 408 80.7.' ',5,102"." .(6,71 5), _1948. 151I ::"i"4,542<"'":. - . 20,677 ;i7::7290 .i; '7 3.4". 1949: 162 .902 (6,310) .18,223 :'80.6.:-?: i :90 "167: 897 5-.,,834 - 79.7, 7,695 •:15,827 : .-3i.:18 .7 : : -. 2,45 .;.:7 ':::981i 79.8 951 :265-, .4,.140 702 6,088 ;;14,61-2 :t: :380o,::7.:: 1,141. V-,'70.6 '3,604 i952 :179 :-":3;413 . 647 S,330 5,079 14,753: " 532 -72.7 1953 i93 1,023 . 3,106 757 -".: 11,653 651 71.5 5,585 1954 184 636 3,059 1,122 5.001 12,842 493 75.0 3,837 1955 106 629 3,466 736 4,937 374 13,741 55.6 2.725 1956 98 473 3,145 764 ,4O 10,95-3 6871 69.1 6,275 1957 80 701 2,788 597 4.166 9,435 577 77.9 6,113 .958 95. 479 4,422 1,097 6.093 ..748 .2 8,315 8,9.90 1959 120 746 6,446 872 8,184 1960 211 870 6,687 783 8,531 1947-66 total landing by haul seines: 9,161,400 !961 397 1,252 7,262- 551 9,462 pounds, or76.3% of total landings by all geas. 1962 682 !,259 5,923 747 8,611 t963 582 1,474 6,496 737 9,289 1964 632 2,022 5,189- 717 8,560 .r• ,. 7,712 1965 531 1,533 5,162 486 1966 843 1,429 6,150 654 9,076

",810 .:tFieures in parenthcses are extrapolated by cdding' the mean of two adjacent years for 'he missing 4 -; I- " statistic.

'.1

7. /1 /2-/: 7~ - 6 0-s / ,§- 7/ 4V /2 .

<.. . 6890 eak3 MR. KARMM,: Copies are being made of the be incorporated 2 tramspa.-encies we used yesterday and they will

* in today's transcripto

CHPA.N jENSCH: If you hand them to the reDor ter

in the transcrip ..0 i they may be physically incorporated S(Tie documents olow.)

7 8I

9'

10

14 15

16

19

20

21

23

24 t S

. 8990 .

7192

5394 " . .

359 6 - ."

0- .20.:".. 60L.,.._.. .02-1003: . 12 ,..0."3

'5. 1 3 . COEFFI C I N. OF D R -. . •- "- .

0 .R .5.5 P TO.-. 0 OF - '-' . . : -. .. . - "". IS NE-DR-FFR ; X. IS':.-NE 'YORK - EFFO-RT,,;,:- ".::.,::,;;, ,i...- ; ....";-. : -_,,.",.{ ..- : .; :i-:.; -i ,, , :

N...... , E......

... Y ' =...... ,... -" 47- 0+ ' r - , 0 .--0 "4" - " X- " ":,1P '8 C.*EAT' ' "' ' . . :.: ,_.I,. . - ; 'r; ' ., " • :,--..- '. . , > ..i... 0-".23303"!:- _':'i: CO FI£"Z-- IE T*OF "Z:- SI; -PL " C: <:RR: LA-7 ':":-.":"<. IO -;-'-.-." i ..: ,--' ... ' ':: ::: oo - 7 ioo., _ 'Y" IS:. CATC."H'::''-PE- EFFORT : 7.:•: :'_--"-' •":: .] L:-: ..•IS'T 7:.: .:Z~':;' ;_.ST ,?Z': " ";'"" "...,:v:_

-0.Y175: COgHpREATONT COEFF'.IC.E.T FOR REGRESSION.

• " " - " 5 7 = PRPOTO.O...ATO NT"EPA 'EDYRERSSO

NUMBER; OF". DATA: SETS. .... 20 . . .: . . . ..,.'. . . : .. .. .:. . 123'

9, 2 72 * 81 5

.- 0, 6943 GO EF F I* NT IPECREAIN

-LT'H OFICETFO ERESO

1- I AS SET-1'.--USO '3 6891 eak4 CROSS-EXAMiNA iON (Continu.d 1

.like to questjon you 3 Q Mr. S.7an-Tov, I woui.d a model - of the Applic nt's therima.1 4 your Par k)t ic study 3-41 of the Staff's 5 first refer.ed to on page Statem.t 6 Final 3-41,Ltem No. .r,the par-acaph o page It-- " %hi 7 In the !as paa.....p of that paragraph states-. appeaxs approximately in the middle the four degree isotherm will "The cross-sect- onal area within 50 Percent of the total on a tidal average basis less ,han

eve un.de. a ess-UIt'C.e... C .- seCtiQnCo0f the river

assuiptions. here is what we are discussing I would note also that at the top of the page,' Sbest stated in yoci:r sentence. the disper-1 parartetrc. study based on following is an extensive

by -the Applicant ." sion =odel proposed by the Staff this past Now a errata s6heet war supplied -to kmea G4taIa 3-5-A Monday when the hearing reconvened 3-43 and 3-44. Is that not which appears on page 3-"2,

oorrect?0' That- is co rect A (r. siman--ToV) t henumbers on oQI: w ould like yo2 to exz-ine from the right. These that table in the second columai the. cross-sectional area are the numbers that refer to degree isotherzz. I5contained within the four as . e0ah

0 dio.d - as A Would you repeat yt 211 Q N o I didzt ask a questiz. I 3 A Sor'.y ... go..ng t ask jsst asked. you to fraln .hei s ,- -eccodcolu-n 5 you several Oentioon - re e ; a s s e d the cur deg C areas encomp by which deals .7ith the 7 rep]acenen,1.. isotherm, in the 8I,L A Yes° 9! m e r appear in that col.m, fe-n Q ~NobY, these na Db s that I c.o,, area tChat the river's cross-s to the fracions of I ecqcaai to or greater See tompert~ure rises are. e .scted to is that; not corr.ect? thn :four degrees Fah-renheiteo

A That is correct. e s 0.5C or 50 I these5e niiii- exceed Q Now. none of not correct? percenta is that I is Co:.rect. A That 0.37 of the these ns exceed Q NoW. none of not correct? '18 cross-section, is that I is cor*cect. in this table.,, hat I A The ntmbes of the first with the exception Q Okay. Now, selected to the lowest values six valuses v.hjh correspond on in or at least, reported in the para-metric study K. 2 coefficientp none of for2 the. dispersion the parametrtic study from the right -- in the second coltufn -these values in table percent of the exceed 0.30 or 30 the correctionon tabie ri-ver Is icros5-F5ct2.oa is that o mrnt . eaM the 1 1n, thef J. * Q If you wou:ld look lxi: the frtsix~ vn f:xon -the -right, *correctCion talAe ~.IM that seco~nd col1umnx

.:3 to .37 and iny Iyou~ will see that those -ivalues'varv *'-ro- Six -.auesg que stion is that >;Ithhe excegtiom; o-f_ th1ese :12i rst of the dispesLon Ayhich values corcresponld 'to 1C.he lvwvest values study? Nonae SCoefficien2ts Mhich are Prsvted in 'cierrametric 30 percnt- og the river Is 1 ofc: the re ainmng values exceed

cross -S on.

'A rNome except. the first six, that is correct.

Q Thank you.

the Staff singles out on page 3-45 I re.Fer -nowt various sets of values that were evaluated and

seantence dowin , a-bout 'Ia to first -the ~-that is about the frifth 'If deO~ed - however, 19 n. lines douln, F ttnn is mad.,v day for tbe. likely values of six 'to seven squar miles -per 2.0 for the lorng3tudinalt di psrsion coefficient of 1.5 to 1 are coverad TSF could be cose'n. 'The above approximationls

b y cases 1-0, 12, 15 and 18 in Table 3-5-AA2 has You note that even in the prior- table, which 23 eiwc'ed 25 percent since been'-carrected, that none of thebe 21A cross-se,:iofl of the -- Ywelli that inteecssthe of the river. is abouxt 25 percen)t of the total cross-setiork cases wihich Further-morea you go on to discuss additionlal 25 26 and V ic . showo rore are stated as cases 19, 22 . and in -otr sateent as also ta..orubl resuli-s but are noted a little fv-tiher possible .nd then f--uzthemore 1 ell-scuss Ithe case in the paraq:raph you the r:ver and you is an average drought flow in are flow which _i 30, e' Yf e asonefm!,e assump-tions . with this flo he -ore M . t, 6 indica e 46 50 a-d covered by cases , 48, and 49 and caseons asame thC you then state here too, the *9 2 ite - ion is easily sia.isf--.ed 50 percent CEOs -sectiaonal a'ca on the correction table0 Now I would like you to examine 17 the ritfle for those spec:-0;:.c those - the second colmm.t I.om likely val.uesp also cases which are mentioned as CPS ca.. a re valuese and then for the 7000 00 possible Cz- las ic 2 15 3. Olsoab le assumptions. "hes*" are

!9, 22a 26v 46f 49. 49 and 50. 2

17

3

20

21

24

95

I 6895

in r..,, It might Thee casS X Yhaveun derlined Q dio e easier for you to a-e I h;-va th"f m&Aked. 3 yes.

Q Oh, you do? FUnV... carc. to see tese? b4Ra TMOSTFN' WoEL'd th,- Board Thank you. Cli.ApIp-1. JENSCH : Yee the replacmn1rt DR, GYER ee we supplied

tab le? kv].K e . Srb-k~ that thOe first 4

day of the hearing.

DR, GEYER: Okay.

b.Y .Dro JAWLER: .-tat none oi Q ow, Mr. Siema-Tov, do you agre , g06-er tban 25 perc ? these cases show zae.al Gtnts That s correKt. A (Mr sima..-v) e a ° e cases rIe.ge between 17 Q And fhurthl n i w , these

percent and 25 percent? 17 A That's corrGct, i8 3-F on page in Q Now pleas rsfer to staterent i9 'the summary.

A Which page? or Roman nkumeral two, I This. i two little a2. of 5aying that, in tile suourary, suppose is the correct way P_3 item F. RRI A yes. 6896 And te statement T ai referring °bc he.i' the

2 sf 'aemeI"lad ndway in -?he middle of tb pge. W, " "t

3 -- it is the second sentence In iatm F. "Althouah

S4 the Staff's assesment s.hews the "h a dischagcr will re c t in a tewperature of loe than 90 dogreas Fahrenhit

6 even durIng the summex months, and thus meat part of'-he

7 Haw York thermala!otandards. .. 8 And X should note fox the record that these

9 the New YOrk thermal criteria rather than standards that

10 you are referring to here.

K the Sta' s •.that the New; York State

saf r Suface ar'ea fd Crs'-s ectoAnai area e losed

3 ;ithizn the 4 degrees i otherm may rtot be*.. mt

14 Now my fixest question Is: Should not the

ia- Board's standards be replaced by the word "crteria"?

This is a very minor point. I just want to

j7 distinguish between thes two words becauea in all of the

evaluatioz that have been made throughout New Yor S tate,

a lot of care has been taken to distinguish between the 20 criteria and the standards, but

A Arx you saying the uord standxd?

MRo TROSTBN- Yes. This is a matter that you

covered, Mr. Sirman.-Tov, on pages 3-8 and following, and the

PA point is simply that the -'- the quanti tatlve values

25 establizhed by New York State are the New York State criteria. ar 3 C-897

. quali at ' statcement io caild the Na York State 2 standard. '2ou br.ing Irhir, pain~t ou't, 1 t-:.ak-aj rea'e.

3 well in ths section I have just dcscrib-_--d, ehre ,,

4. 3-8 a.d follewing. 5 C.A NJES,4 gutcy..°.._taffcone oed

SKAP MN can, I t a ny probl.erm with that.

7 DR. 1,AWL'E~f ThiS ISII t reaZ ly Ina Uv tcn

8 just brought that out as I wa& readi's.g thl's

~BY DR. LAWLER:

10 Q one other point. YoP. zy&v surface artla.

11 think you mea-, the suzf a,w t?

12 A (Mr Siman-Tov) hat 46. ac.Uy the word

13 area that you are referring to?

Q In the middle of that paragra ph

MR. TROSTEN: The eighth-

BY DR. LAWLER.

Q Eight lines do-vn.

A ((or. Sim-an-TvF) I See.

19 MR. TROST Eighth liho, Mr, S3man-Oo

WITNESS SIMAN-TOV: Eighth 1ina?

That's correct.

22 BY DR. -AW.,LER: 23 Q f 1may be permitted, theim I wiould like to read. this statement a. the Staft f inds that the New Yo6rk 24 StatG criteria for surf ace width and crose-.,sctonal 25 68 9

area Wncl.o:ditirn the 4 dagxez Fabra.eheit iSothzrim may

not be Imt

3 Nowi Vte of your foregoing answers w.:'n" ""

4 rspsct to the cross-zaction' and only with 'eapact to tlml'.

5 cross-seation,snlpekely wo;ld you -not agree that it- IS very

that the 50 percent crit rion will ot b mt?

MR. TRC)T.N Would the rapo;?tor red the quealtion

back, Please?

4MR. BRIGGS: With e propar number of negativis. 10 ~ ~ Kr-pr i-ad.r VIMe 9,320d321 quS~tlon.}

btra CHAIRMA N$C: Really, t ar two qsis

but maybe the witness can han-lla this. It is the same

'33 subject, I presume°

WITNESS SMAM.N-TOW. I cou1d an.4wor thes question

'5 as it Is.

When you say "unlikely, I agre. with this question

as such as yes.

However, I would like to indicate here that the

paramiter study given in Chapta 3 and the tables that ae

shown here are based on paraamaters th .tt were avaluated

21 based on the Applicant model which is based on average conditions and does not try to predict maximum conditions

23 that might appear within one title. Even though considering the fact that based on the average conditton, we are not ed5 25 percent I believe 25 exceedinglike you mentioned before, 6899 ar5 t. Iowever, 0hai un.ik&.y that it will exceed 50 pe:acr in the report, the i t Is not conflrr;ed since, as explained caraot ped.ct the raimlm 3 models presented by the Applicant

4 conditiong.

5 BY DRo LAWLER: that, Yx. S4.man- Tov You have 6 Q Yes, I understand

7 answered my question, falowing that; are you aware 8 On -- one question by the this quetion is presoat. 9 -that a discussion of tt'4 y of A"pi 5t1? 10 Applicant in i,ts Yes. 11 A (Mr., Siman-Tov) Q Thankc you. of the extevt Now let us turn to the question see temperature which can be expected to 14 of the rivers' width Fahrenheit. Now greater than 4 degreez 15 rises equal to or Statement, this is table 5-A of the Final 16 in the uncorrected into the Final Statofnt 17 the table that is bound should wC be dealing SMR. !UAtRIN: Mr. Chairman, not part of been corrected? That's with a table that has _y. 20 our testo.

21 *4 22

23

24

25 6900

can onxplain thie reason *iii ~MR. TROSTEN: D)r. Lawler 2 for it.,

(Board conferenceJ.

4 C1Hk1W1N jENCH.-Do you agree .1ie should deal wit>i

the corrected table?

oda with it Gi hn hR M TROSTE. Yes, -%-e are going

it can be made respect to the earlier table., I thirJ.k

S straightforwardly. point CL-A*rRMWM JENSCHi- If you tell us what th.,

is, maybe we can consider the wquestion.

MR. TROSTEN - Thank you. is simply toI i3DR. IWLR: The Point, Mr,Car~2f of cass in .,-nich the 50 14 shiow the reducti.on in the nuimber criterion are not me. 15 t-he two-thirds sujrface width in the number of timies 16 There has been a substan~tial- reductict. it should be Pointedl 17 'that that criterion. is not met and I think

18 out

that. If -- we havil 9mrz. t(ARK4N. I don"t nderstand a corrected table, this is 20 submitted -- if we have suibmitted that the witness should not be 21 our testimony and I believe been superseded and for all 2z. interogated on a table that has of this proceeding. 23 intents and purposes not part here Mr. Charman, T. think the point 24 MR. TROSTEN: tablet the technical ?' Simply is that although the underlying 6901

thfl-Y haS beenI ald L'Y the Staff, 02mil dat43, technical baSLs~, the poin't W-a 2 have Dot' auended their1_ -Onclusion which a -c-; . is ipra i etyrying -to get at. x think, t h C-'ef o t contir-meo v'a1.diity1 It fr -the hsloard -to consider the validity has changed the uidexying 5 of the conclusion -tha: the Sta~ff is the reason uhy we 6 oundationl for that conc'.iU~oxx This

7 think it is important is the psairticula coacumio CHAIP1 VMNf JENSCH -, What and has not been changed? 9 that you say has beer- af fected in this question I' imply 10 DR0 XAIER: Well read th.e: ~ 1et.f.~ haivo it,. 1 wish to point out m ay I unders--aa t.ha; polut. 1, word it? I think you wrill (qussltai all. CHAIMLIAN JYENSCH.- I Uderstanci your

counsel'~s objectionA is right, My point is I think WStafk's that's 11een presented by thia that You deal with the evidence has of the preseat record, the Staff 16 staf f. NOW onl the basis incorrctdfomeid t submitted sttst.cal. data,. albeit h aecnlso. far as I ko hyac- deigt conclusion. but that is the Yom may be disagreeing with the like goIng backt. into the work 20positionl of the Staff. It is fact th-e original. prs'emna papers of the Staff,, which is in

be based on the vl'R Kh-At: Our conclusionl will

Mr a Chairman. 2a original table, Very well. Ob-ection. sustained, 25 cHAr4Mat JPNSCH.: 6902

the uestion this Dllo .L~& Then i would ask. O.il 2 way BY DR. A-WLER: Mir Sirnm-Tov, 4 . Q hEIa ~orete~ Iir~iSteen~t, of the 12 cases which were studied t:... are 20 such cases 5'

or 26 percent of those studied that show3 surf:ace with

or 7 percenXt o e e.ens exceeding.o.. point sixty-seven

surface width. ahki.g him does he ag-ree 9 CHMR....N. JSCH Youj ,Le

,with Vour calculatiozs? a (c.t. Z juSt weift DB. LER-. This is smimp,

the numyJber of such <..s that downii the 72 ca-ses and counted

ae...meeded that nmbero ilte to fur"ther CHAIR.pAN JENSCH is this a him does he agre with your questioning by you? You ask

calculations? Yes. 157 D LAWLER-. me to count them? WITNESS SIMAN-TOV: You want

BY DR. LAWLER:

Q If you wish.

MR_ TROSTEl: If you agree, .think you should. .KAMAN - Before you agree,I 22 MR. (Laughter.) 23 WITNESS SIMAN-TOV: I find 26, 24

P5 6.903

~ iiiBY DR. LAILER: that. 2] Q You find 26? W ell I won't quibble with I A (Mr. Siman-Tov) Twhqo of them are close, argue all morning on that. 4 Q1 Then we could probably now to a further point. 5 j would l.ike to go on is given an page 3-27 "-PS 6 Now the Applicant"s inodeL which -i c study referred to on 7 employed in this extensive par,:amet Mr. Sima.tn-oTov? 8 page 3-41, is that not correct, 9 A Yes.,

the net hent discharge to the to 0 Now in that model, N, is that not correct? 1 river is given by the symbol A ThatVs correct. by the w.3 U And this represents the heat rejected not correct? 4 plant, is that

5 A That I s correct. tae net heat imposed on the water 16 Q In other words, H in the Applicant's model? 17 body is given by the syntbol is A That Ies correct. the planned heat rejection, 19 Q Now the value of H, rise across product of the temperature 20 can be obtained as the the planned flow times appropriate ?13 the condensers times and the density of the V ~constants which axe the heat capacity

with that statement? 22 water, Do you agree A That' s correct. plant with the statement that the 2 Q Do you agree 6904

tempeature rise is the d.ifference betwee-n the intake and

3 ? .i the discharge temperat u re s A That's correct0 e4 the Now undar steady state conditions "

Applicantgs model refers -to this plant ?.Yas'te heat rejection you is the only heat being added to the rivezr system, do

7 agree ij:"h that statement?

A That's correct0 o

9 Q Now fr. Siman-Tov . does recirol-ation of heated T,",a.t hIeated river water , change the n l-.hea load rejected

from the plant? 2 A Noo :INow I'd like you to please exidne equation two that was applied 4 on page 3-27. This is the basic equation analysis is that not cor I'employed in the Staffs para.etric 0 2r orect?

27 A Yes.o

B Q Now~ the evaluation of -the e-fect of the heated is that not 9 discharge was made a t- the plane of discharge0 correct?

A ~hat's correct. permits the Q All right. And in doing so, thin

eliination of the entire bracketed termr in the nulferatOr that entire 2,6 of equation two on page 3-27? In other words,

25 bracketed term is equa. to one?

I Includi.-ng the et pon-ential work, Q Yes . you., ar.e., ri-..ht, including the eo tia..

is that correct? 4 A Yes o

5 I Q Now this was done to evaliate thbe maximum 6U cevl-ect? ture eff2ect on the river is that not

7 A Not necessarily. o Let me rephrase the question.l then0 The puirpo-e 9 ne eonentiall replacing the entire bzad..eted tefLaihe !or the temperaUr.. . simply involves evaluating the expression the ertire cross rise which is the temPerature risse across 1 atu C, rrise?7 11szction, the so-ca.Lled area average A That's correct one 0 At the plane of discharge of oantple whera

Y e rise to be the 15 woUd expect the area of average tempem-at

highest, is that not correct? your question. R7 A Not necessarily. in enrsW-e to it CAfPAiNI JENSCM- Let him S.o ahead0 Explain 19 the WITNESS SI1MAN-TOV: f yoU want me to rephrase yes, I could. 20 question for you so that I will answer

22 (Laughter .. CHAIRAN jENSC I think with the assistance they

they 23 Jet them get along as best have at the table, we have to 24 1' (Laughter °) 25 6906

BY DR. LAWL 'J

- .way... °' h.. Let Me put it a Q Okay0

pthh '. T v ta into i-zrophoP' If. (Mr Siman- c'l) woul1d yoi

e cli2e - - T ww h a s s o m 5. H r - p," hedng he

BY DR. L.A1SER%: stae to the ?a;.t.-la steady i Q am only e I basis cdeai. ng with which was the oxr 3iresinal modef- we aAe I not ta ing a cpt fo te-Stn of t t -hu3 12 aM s O that I or 0Ut.Y. of poiitlZ maximals avera( tot the .... area of Q askivkg in this model, will t3 t t b )OL?Oin C. tejpeatul =trise Occur at S414 - va'iable i zero? point whae, Xg the dta

A Mr. I 1~

27 I

2i3

I * 24 I' 6 6907 eakl Q Thanki you. Now, in the Staff's analysis, the value of the

factor F sub five in equation 2.was said equal to unit y, to

1, correct?

A Yeso

Q Now, in that case, if .we were to rewrite equation 2

for the condition of F equal to 1, F five equal to 1, T

ramsorry, and the entire bracketted term including the

exponential equal to 1, you would end up with a single value

15 for the area of average temperature. rise which ' could

simply call Delta T bar sub 0, the 0 referring to the

172 plane of discharge or the .point of dilschar.ge of the plant 2318 A Yes.

2419 Q Do you agree?.

2020 Then on the .cidht-hand side of the equation X

would simply have the heat load, 11, in .the numerator, and the

2 denominator would beidentical to the denominator in equation

2?

24 A Yes.

25 Q Thank you.

Now this shows that the river area average temperatu~ie

rise is directly proportional to the net rate at which heat i

is rejected from the plant and inversely proportional to river

parameters, is that not correct?

A (No response 4)

I I to the 3 it is .opo tona- I am 2i-P .Y saying iO n a I ameor and Jnersely PO which appears " the10 in the deuoaiator 3 :to the c0l2e to pay.raetes e o Othisonly and the Againl based on .A I th-s equation "slly pamanet in y Ejq talking &bouto 6 Q Tnhet is all A Ye iC-c ea1s tih t-he 1: a ferring back to 3-4. l ic tt s . based on t-he App pa metri_ shtuvy rodeI. this is the p.cafl-6

co~en that you kqou X2 2ike to make?

ait until s o~n ,SY- atough I c~ouPd assome 0 1 would1 be rop~rita CEAI?~JNSCB I t i t

some limitai _ infer. 16 no. You a rpae-tLY have response. 17 from your a,,35A S S mN The t'alaestht..

the do not appear in parar6tet1 that does include additiOl 2. 11 model as such in equation 110 Applicant Chairalan, there z That is correct# a _VLAT necessary for the cornpLete 22 are 'additional parametes 2 e m s because the equatiol of the APplic to model 23 application temperature discuss the area of average I only 0e so far as to the iNefrom that point to describe Ore then has to m 25 9' Ii 690

eif rface e 'I peoce.rtage act e atCdi-Cional-a5,.er a That is why reference to I BCH*. no- Dlalhe sOe0 9

i nater.... ~LI Athese additional par1eters . mbieauseL t is not

tc the C-A'iM - The dvve' op t y would like?

rght DR0 L LER: That is

VI e"h~ s sfCh ould fi~el v IE

P.0o e or .ua-catic -a yot " to add whatever" WI T {FSSSIMq- -Can Scs,,< additional

aramet are in there? Cp jS I think, it dbe helpful as 1oD7 9 'ke cI as beC1" soT~L5,. refreceas~sat thesee a ditional ' a" o e S - ar -e h sboon

woulWe yon do that WZ SS S O As shoI on the title of are flows The parWdIet;s ivolve therc ae 18 the table 1 Applicarkts miod.] in the eqaatio 2 of the which aje eres as Whii is also ewpresses Qo d-s~e:Ci coefficiet 20o n u ,=t i c 2 or of stratiicatonin e9q o. page 3-27 the faC;n... 21 Sin equation ine2 -" jnn is also indixectIY that factOh 23 the way this I x the Boad can see of the PpliCa ~aodel; and: 24 is w 3 on page 7:-28 There 23 .factor is included .n squati, 'I i the term n a tem TSP whch a term K prime which I 6910

SNow ,-e texr1]1m I p .iic is inclded a such inside

3 equztio, 2. ef nrC jNS..SCH-, Does that conclu yo1r A CUAVN para° - a' e r s ? U to these additional yet s u zj-oj 6 JiNSCH: Proceed. 7 Cl R1-AN pavameters : -S Wt- These a:-ce the .6 S "hh.o.i± are in Table 2 2 n additio, 9 are- cluded in equation Le which one is the recirculaciO-1f 10 two more -paxamaees jet dil.twion wdhich in equation 2 and 1 does not appear equiation 2 calculate the resvlt o 12, is not needed to - o wewould you proceed, iCRaSCH- Very

corc, m a n - v s staewens ate DR L.WIM -o Si these Points. I as gettin~g to 1M6 mr. haigaI BY D21. I2R is 17 I jutr~e:e to that • -e F ive the caoe of the factor or.-- equation 2 for 19 the correct l u a t i n the point of Eor the eva O at 0 be:ing equal to L and equaion that we just that result, that ischarge at the plante -oKputer program on by the Staft in i't described is given tbo-,-Mr. SimanAv? Would you agree with lines 52 through 59. What was I could not folloW. (Mo oSimaTv) 24, A 52, did you say? 6911

sayinlg is that the Q What i w as siimp2Y uat1on of equati.on2 o elago...... a0agoc the. ev ' eqa .qatox l n I X descer ribed a M-01". n.t.

in its at the point of ischarge is given by the Staff

52 through 59 4. , -e program in lines is -hat one? R . 5 What page DR o.W~ RoThe Staffos r . lto-LCTheStap.. p

7 appear TNESSSV I don t hare the com'Nuter S program ,ith me so . cannot go through the lin3es that

youL enio~nintz

BY DRo TIMMERo Y to do it that SAll righto~ hat is not necessa" here. to retha. ry ,. way Just gie me a moment agoavd Mr2 SiMM-Tov-that You a Cmet not ap ar in the is the reciutionahic does

employee bff the Staxf annd Ap11a 0 equatido i was that the ay in 1h.ch I will ask yo now is it not correct qute wS tAC it rcirculation reara!-m the' IouCt . pluS the rev-j.' mutiplY the heat load f by the p ,,~aas te)n.1ipytn 19 correci? Culation raHtio; is that nnot of it is correctu Sim n-TOV) the effect 21 A ro of the result, Delta ', • . g.. l ii was a dupl.icati 2 S.althou gh x~o r,-..,...... by 1 pls the 2o The_result is supplied Scirculationfrom equation factor°

A ctr.That is OreC t, That is Why I asked you about 691.2 59, the ' 52 tbhrough Oak6 i youdr CC-- te pr j .rA 'lines thc-al Oi ns 0 Appliant ~e~t~ai~flIs ntroduced anmd th laPba hchL io the CivJer 04 -you expreS which is equ2al to tbe Pelta T bar wit'h the ci1rculation~ parenthes I. plus R. ri-ver Delta T tines that factor

A That 'is corrct.

that effectivaely xmat has been 7 QYou do agree prodmct,, has been ruti-plied by tq'he done is that the heat load natio? I. pls1 theC re Oiruatio!n

A Phat is correct. Of' 'your state-aments Q Thank you* Nom?" in vjewl

rises dire,01Y .y proportionlal that the river temperetuxe 3.orA and that th-is rejected . 14-to re-Jeated ,Aste mnd heat heat beping added to the river -waste heat load is the only

please so we can CIMIRMANV JE;tSCH: More slo-wly .3 over again. reporter. Thank you. Start 18. get it for the over again. All right. DA.~ L-OM-ER. I will start

I -will just read it. 19 I 20

21 6591:3

the river you2 tte. that Q NoW In viwOf tdrjet heat directlY PX0P~rt;L0"1 tsamparaturs Xl~s j,3 the only heat beinfg rejected heat load load and th&t the Xead nme Corrct that to syste-M or -- l-et eldded to the river beig de heat is the Only haa the ree dpla.naed of. heated wvater Fnd that to -te riv~er eystsm I want to knw why nat heat rejection %A1lnot C11a.-ge the- ~. o h,~ the rect~ you have Jn ,radUced

just decribed? hnat Ioakd H? a, a.,li~ie of rh~ In other words, ao nuwbex of AS mnin i n~ a A (MYr. Sinan-Tov) bl thiat -this the Staff do4es not places in the report, it Is being used. for the purnose that eqation2 can be used call att two Is What one will in othier worda, equation thefa-il t i correct that AM&iyr'aefr-feld mndl qQ by recirculation. tfaaeratre~aax lnotis affected rn.. same rmodel for is trying to use 'the H1owever, the Applicant the sitG plaraield, x Is traperalt'r at predicting tempeatr' is Zero. the locatq*an ffwere X \at area. called a near-field This area is normally il ner-ied area -- Is affp5ctred. The T .he near-fiel.d area5 is affected by the recirculation. arfi'lLmId0-. erat1 -P by this recirc~ulation t;ried to consider Therefore the Staff factOr- adding a reci culati~n Q b~o. vi-.Tov. I ~agree wiith your tatement LT3P a2 to a point. My question It you is Is It valid to ealuae term the neaf,-eld sltuatoy., by a.ertanq. zecirculation

in a far-fild model?

A No.

CFiUXR .IA JENSC1: wThyw2hie tothere Is a

Why not? What kind of calculation or equation should you

use for a near-field .valuation?

WITNESS SI:iAM--*TOV- It is very difficult to write I a spec.fic equation. This does not really exist as far as

Krmaw- There are what are called maybe jet models, which

11 be mo=re appropriate fo[<" near-field tmperatur'e predic will 3 ii tion, and the Applicant has used it for the purpose of ahowing

maximima temuperature at the surface. in other words, as an

example the 90 degree crteriao

However , the need, to pred-aict a certain plume

extent in the near-field is much more complicated and cannot

be: predicted by either one of the modals since the first one

includes only the actual jet model which is -- this area o

the plume which still have a lot of momentum or velocity of

its own.

The far-field aodel assumes that most of the

gradlents of temperatures are already disappearing. So the 24 need in thiz case is practically a combination of the two 92 ar 3

. mvdels .hich I WoUld say equire:- a t available. 2 dimensiol model which I agree is not practically bes.t adj usutent 3 CHAERYIAN JENSCH But thia was the conditions, 4 you. could inake in orde r to handle the near-field

5 is that Corect? correct. G WITNESS SI'AN-TOV. That e 71 CRIP&' JEcCSCHA:.mwSU Very

8 Please proceed.

9 DR. LAWLER- Mlay I confe::?

CHAIR,0 JENSCH: surelyo

11 (counsel conferring.)

12 BY DR. L..iWLER: an you have indicated that therce is 13 Q ro Siman-Tov, when you incorporate the invalid4 use of the far-field mcdel what it aut to I Is recirculation ter, and specifically heat into the river than 16 that you are introducing more statement on. page 3-41 --- before 17 actually eXists. In your Staff's not been able to find In the i8 I come to that, I have this notion of incorporating 19 statemefnt where you discus did. in the .ranner n which you 20 the recirculation factor at any point in Can you assiot me here? Is this discussed

statement? 22 the Staff's 3-41. It is discussed-in page 3 (Mr. Sihaft-Tov) but on page 3-41, there are It is not actually discussed, the that were used as affecting 25 six items of parameters II 6916U

r the two model.4 1e ho-i - results. Bai::il ther as not; appeari~ng, paruuta that I riC'toe 2 that' -- Ach two ~i h -ctiOn 'two.Oeo 3 direO. t n jat dilutlorl a seccnd Is th 4 factor une' Item ic~ t ~ was U~Ot IG C~~t~ ,5 Jitat 5 The0 poin is tho prjae of the ta.b1I- beasIe Tj atine be"Fora, -S ;aIt I s 'fte., .- jjnidiadn n- 7 not to prjc- t.'s that are thielr'G ae WM- Pa-lmt Puros3e is to S3hv that

App cane-nV h.1ehi-n(a1VrGPOrt, 9 ot knoQwn and and gae results to a nuntber of parapc,,ters 10 liiie hl~sf

1 f or them.~ L-5 to o3how that If one purps Of this table 4 ~The thar. arc ranges of paramreters, wera to take thr-, possible sixce tChe Showing m~ore svere~ resulto. many cases -that are go tho Staff d2oes aot Staffc madel, and 15 rodel is not the any use la discugs itzelff, I do not see 1, along with the model n-aind done; bDutC as jou In detail what was 17 iag too much that thes you mcntionad a way is very clear, and is teprga a~cu',.q. intkerecirculation was takan into

20

21

25 8 69-17

utifS I have One __ a-~ few, further S Imi I Q All crjqht you 'Uitere any place IFirst ofz all 1 Txvu]d ask whare you~ simnPlY restatewa 0 the~ tha'n Item 4. on Pa;e 3--41 disc3uss this f'actor rang., i htYOU, he: Lntak ciciati~of is- the Fi~nal Statement? tMerit of re~c rUjatiojnl f;actor quet~oYA, plae ACoala you repeat the read -the questl-ion , 70ROSEN: Tpoald the reporter

please

(Thi e porter? read the Pey'dingquS-flT two7 C~A~t~ANJENC~ nv - yon have second, where where is it shown, and gtes-tiofls there? One is 12 u-nder I joke at-the section is it disusd? Nowt as the discussesS the inadt-,uacy Arabic 2-3-41, the paagraph states -that Staff feels It to be and Applcants model as the other wor~ds crretion factcrs~, in the Staff f~eels that the IA recirc,,la you referx-ed as. the intakte this item four to which fctor describes that as a correxCtiLon tion factor, the Staff part of yu I thinfk 'die ffrs so there is a diss~i~o any other place and have question is have you ietfdat They have There are two aspects. you discus sedt at any place. 20 4-3-41. under Arabic Section idnife it as iteym four material. the sense that the textual 22 But it is discussed in the Staff factor and states that 2"S callied -It a corraction needs thle iodel is unjustified and 01 24 feels tha~t the Applicanlt's have him consider? part w.ould you like to 25 correcton. What 691

done Or jst th what the Stf has ~ hedicU~3~ eaU~of

_nt 9 Ivr, lensph R -_RThere r tWO po .X1thY fl to ouae a-e to have 4 co-cC~~~) 1O fatO factOT7S discussion.h~ear do _tjth this reciru1&jon p~d~ -K0a~B(Itin , were used in th(:z S1that 6 9 i.n Con Edisn in .L9 orgafl.ZatiOll to a report by our 7 was shofwn been d3cussin was mod.Gl thatk-we have ithidn the basic applie d taNpekatUre when th e f fect Of the to11.aver 5tt Tu~n Those'ntervr Coect'O toact-Lp.! O the the pred&iCtiofls of cret downsci factOwe~appi~t~ awhied hart ~ al fco ere haebeen ds-sig 1-9basc P-oe ,jjcjwe the IStf thcsVt.'l Conversatio~ with i\aiBtin are nnucMfe =nd we the St,ff to be fat~3wrefh. y ti-Flo wieth that at thLs VA I-ot tkinsl jssUa sente.nce -L ie:'R.t is the next Cy nt u J1ENSC - the Sem-Colo that of this sentence afte,-r or the next part treated hers as UncerCtainties are saystheothr pintof values being~ a rv o paaf~5~r echwth and their corresi1 tesS studied 511e various Paa 5 20investigated foure then one, two, three, as follows, and Ponding ranges are 4 8 the recirciilaton factor. five sic~n whch te four or purporting to you werG separating IjSt wondered whether factor. the recircullation of whY hie used his discussion exclude that regard? your question in CoI you. clarlfy fl 691.9

02 Mr. Chairman has us~ed the wox-d correction facto, bu.

3 he referred vctuall'Y ftix correc'-f-ion factor becausc-e o" eJX'1--P

laton-hiedidnot'-_ ;Pan :Like, I believe br~, Lawlier thc-ught,

S That is to 'which I rc;frxetd Will you procaed~, Dr, . Lawler?

92 DR., L~ Mr. Chzair'zia. the resnIasf;d

M the qvuestior, is because a few momen-1ts before 14.-., JmnJ'

?4 dicated that the discussion of the peie di"ussiol' 1w1C1

n5avet had here thsmorning on the. va-lidity or i- .v a id J1.ty cal:

16 treaiig th~e far field model. ith recircu.Lltion Was dicu';&"'d

17 ~isom:dtail somewhere in the reot I am simply ei~

19 CHAIR~tL\ JENSCXH: Well,. presumrably that i.s One

20 place and you have to exazine the rcest of it' unles~s he can readily identify it for you.

MR.,. TY-40STEiN: That is' what we are seeking, Mir.

S23 Chairman, cnhe identify it for us, Pleas e. 24CIIAXDWq JENSCli I understand. M~aybe this 3 whexc

25 i-e feels -it is diotesed in detail. What he calls detail may itI

6920 9'

your detail0 0 be something different than I .Omi II (Laughter.) As much as identifyinlg other 95 WITNESS SIM9ANTOV: :t was used was no't factOr and the way I 4 location, as I saythe for flowever, if you are !cokinq discuseed in detail was mentioed at 5 where recicula -ion 6 11additional location-S I I. y afll - I By DR. LAWLER I kno, where recirculataon Q No, M . Siman-TOV, ox aware of your 'point reports I am fully is mentioned in the of the arguing with one poin7t recirculatio. I That is all. ngx far field model. pendi p-oper use of a 4-. . lt 'the- cjtIM3 doni pedmi CBAINM JNSCE That isn You first ask ed him the question now. if you want to restate loCatiOs going to give you other to identify and he w;as You state your arguing somethiW If Now you say you are t trrn 1~ argumefltco6- we were to read back MR. TROSTENz If said ould reveal that Aro Simal-TOv I think he ranscr.pt I 21 I field that the subject of recirculation as far as the far then in much detail and was not discussed 21 model was concernedg was simply asking 4; and Dr. Lawler referred to Section he not to in the report; subject referred 24 him where was this was aiscussed, but wivare I. the sb1ject of reCirculation where not Sim an -TOV said was subject which Mr. 25 was this particular Nowf you want -to know xa>L 7mldiscussed in mv-C deta.il batc to the sectini 'i 2 what the oubjoct- waso w.e can tux-r. Wish ~ ov used that"- phrase. if YOU S transcript wh,~jere 14r sjnanT

we can do that.

CAIRYjp -ESChnk-Jol so. L~rvler Said is C, "hlIast queeo propunded by Dr.,

4 where rec.r atlc 41 to ~ S the-re any place except item read, TI wan.ted to know meA.tioned? Tilat, i -the uay my notes your -,n.quiry the discussion 9 if you itended -to exalu&e frovi.i 2 on lRoafi !;umeral 111-41 1 -that is showvn in Ara.bi~c 6 'No. Stat eviefl 11 te Final Evrmenta.. Imipac~t f I don't want to ex~clude that at all w2 E)R. LAMNILER: 13 Mr. Chairman.

DR. LAREI0Icranl ikfri- elucidatiori

viords, the specII.C on seofhe herecirculatioa. In1 other

you state precisely what you CEHAjpRN 04V JuNSca- will

are 'asking for now, Pie-ase? Could -- I can add here that 20 'WTMS S1'IA.TG%7 method that I also zaid it before, the -the melthod - think is not discussed~ in the report. W 22 the ecru ow used it wvas used by clarifiJe you--self the vwy 23 -Hwvr you alx.,edy was used was e mtte- _- method that it P20 Saying thLat tLhe simj.l a gets from~ equ~aton two by 25 to apply delta T2 that one ii 6922

,ers app-ar.ng n is just one pIU th . *ii f actor which tw o on page 3-41 2 Item 4 under paragraph as such i. the this was not mentioned 3 1 agree that

4 report. DR. LAOILERo 5 BY page 3 My fina question Is on 6 Thank you. exte-Av. pa&trc 7 you stateC "The followiqng is an by the Apticanto. 8 study baed on the dispersion model p: oposed

in view of the like to ask you whether 9I wonid vthether that taken Place this ia1ining 10 discussion that's following iS more properly read, "'khe I statement would not di"spersio shtudy based on the 12 an extensive paamet,1c by the Staff"'? 13 model proposed Siman-Tov) No., 14 A (Mr. Thank you. 15 Q

16 17 181

191

20

21

22

25 ji __ ketas a que'stiLon or two '. arl * H ~MR.DRIkGG:Ia 2. here, i i nay, please. go troi the D1e.ta T .mbers to 3 How does onG of tba -- f'"aci" of the 4 the fraction of the cross-eCtOT plume? le woa id be involved in the 5 width of the river- that 6 this a complicated relationship? Is this, Baei.cally what it involves 7 DR. LAWI2R: at numerna poweqr llants S Mr. Briggs; The observations to previously upon which In the estuaries that i refe rred show tat tAe .-. boath the sr..facc. we have had our experience area temperature and the cross- 6ectional temperatvure isotherms as you move out from the p .. isotherms decay exponent ally say So what we have done is to actual plane of discharge.. - functtona fo ro na2 orm of form of the -- ths- 14 that knowing the out the manner .n which the temperature cacys as you move knowing the ma utim point of discharge, and 6 from. the actual rise itself; and knowing the plant temperature 1 value which is you can mathtejniticOIly over the section, is the average value curve. Is construct that exponential has recLrulation fac tor BRIGGS: Well, the 20 MR. propose to in hare. Does the Appl-lcant 20 been incorporated have in later testimony? show what effect that would

our Mra Briggs, that in DR. LAWLER: I believe, of the effect Stestiinony of April 5th, there is a d1scussion of recirculation. ar 2 6924

hebre Is ii DR0 w3XcGs. VWhat _ I amintere-ted In

2 the fractlon width nmnlbr:s are 9givuns, and you indiate 3 thbal thcse nuinbers presumably ar'e Uc;3 high bsaause the

recrclatonfactor was :noortdin t11he calculatica

andnmultinlied the H val eP Now my real quetizx.a1 s: How

sensitive Is the fracziqn width nuwber tohs recircula

tlton factor? Does it make a big dif If ons uie1s a

recirculat.iNon factor of 0I or does it make a little difEarenc k •D~AW W, 1-etn PmuhrMit the actual RP LJUVIXR ?.F1 , x

-- ompucatonldgfeencs hf~ itmaks.1 can Indicata -to S you th~ath z ths. eleve'-on ca.s describa~d on page 3-VO5 as

most iike!y and also possible for ths casae '-f4 000 1-9s.

13 and : the.: more probable assumptioni for the case of 7000

cfs.o the Staff Is model shows that f ive of those i cases

Swill have surface width extent wzceeding 670 Using the

params.ters selected by the Staff, which we also don't

agr e with in a nuber of cases, as pointed out In the prz

test.imacy. but' using those par ameters and the actual model

we have used without racirculation i- the far .eld and

•terefore the correct heat discharge from the plant, only

one of-;-' those 11 cases shows an area as surface width

enceedimg 67 percent. We plan to submit this .ZArebuttalo

MRo.BRIGGS: mro Simatn-Tov, have you made 23fcti did not use the recirculation factol." 24 calulations in.which you WITNESS SINOAN-TOV : Yes. 6925 er3 MR B GRGS: IS the effect of incorporating the rec .rcuia- on Pfactor a substantiail n-Ine &S .,:-O F-ednaI

or does t have only a small effect on the nuuiersz as you

.1 have :toolPed at thwn.?

WITNESS SIAN-TOV It is important, but it is w y it exceeds 0 not absolutely necessary for shoWving the

cases ohown,n 7 two thlxdS of the river. The nutsr of

B this table are oily 72. OcwvO, I haVe 5000 caes chc!khed. f the table is 9 1 coald not put then 'all her_ The purpos_ Applicant wilI w0 to shom a certain point. :U!evsrif the to zerca and wil allow me I I insist on reducing the circulation

crit~erIah Is violated; I will be 9lad o do it. t.w t~d 13, 4wdth acitioal aeta ilsilso

1.6DR LaWLER? !em not insi- -

Ji,4NSCU; Excuse RQ, Wait a iraaute. Wait 1516 a minute. CHI.MAI

Go ahead. 17 1MR. BFRIGGS:- I didn't 1'. am sorry, Vr Briggs. 18 rDR. LAWLER 19 9r~ze.%,~uwere readiong.

I I Just La xesponse to Mr.o Sinman-Tov's conumant, reducedGe am not inSisting that the recirc¢ulation factor am sAxply insisting to zero or effectively be eliminatead. I in which it's been reduced to zero in the marner 23 that it be anrgue tha t mmsotlt I don'tif forefetas.r.tt Mr. Siman that one mustra t consider -ecirculation ef fects. 25 6926

4I Tov argued that it Tixt dO yoi .opo , for a a CHAI ,AN JESCH{

3 near-field mode!? YiJtha sumbjec. of quCe 4 DR,, T-AWLER: Th.t, s Y on o1.: pazt, mr Chairman. 'tensie oubroseao of teqtnO tt p, f vo r pr_A 5th SClAIA JFTN!SCH% Is 'at

of the zubmls. DR Lv jrW-R, jzs, and also p. t i c a n t S r8PN.oI 9 in the App ' ORWI-IM-AMP-ntal

we ! 0CAi.XA JENSCH V y that in little Vir1 BRIG S LeW Wj.il look 3,jto YOu.C addItiooa,'3a, questow- when wnomfe detali and wiay ask sve-

3 iA-e~ssea are on the atand, concluded Dr. Lawler? CHAIRFN JENSCH" Have you

DR. IWxWl.IFR- Yes, sir; I have.

C1!AIFMAN JENSCHI Niq r. bttal? MR. lhkRlY1AX. No No redirec't. Rlvelc? : AnY eXMOM,,1inato., ludBoA la CKAI. N-M. JENSCH

ChaiLrman.~ JAR" 14ACBETH{: No, Mr. 19 eWOYdrk? CHAI ? AN jENSCH-3 state of 20 entered in this secti¢ There has been -no appearance NetW York Attorney Generalo on behalf of the State of James Corcoran, IR CORCOR2'N: My name le State of New YArk. Assistant Attorney General, wello a5 CHAIRMAN JENSCH: Vexy 6927

ar5

'to call you later., 2 e .Clused° Parhem-38 we nay went

-- . ai-, -v excused )

I~t' recess 41 CLHaxrdi4 j-EPA5Cm' iml V time. at I0 30° 5 to reconve a in this oom 6 (Recess.° e9 7

3

9

10

15

16

17

18

19

0Z 3929

come to order -JE1S C 1 Please forto Awere shduled r.Mo otWC!.w,,lC the name VA' esrso .nghtO ndCAre those I That s correcco MR0or A2%V1: o hat'C beefl sWOrr 31 Those ge :%tLC~ue ciiA JE.NSC-:

iU0.ta.d e wil take 11 a t s2e COuskg .haveM '1

9 I behaif of the RegultorY as a .tqles on resumid the stand 4 duly SW2O.flo0dE.. befl pr5ViOU5- Y stafl nd heYY2Xn .ed fur"IP-e2 as 1Lfl"s Sand ~testif O CR

'4 glad to note his sta-Sefl~nts,, zeCo2d and we are *5 room for the we he,i-..... : mighst add .aat Q gi I Session begin I I

mui E Street enter on the I DC Be suc, to er 19 d Crt,,...... have assumed the

de.sr to I Does the p1LiXa& wtilS stand. - -. CoEN Yes 4 we do 4 2 proceed please C1ARMN JISCi Please I otld at this time w RCoa g_ Mr,, Chairman those wthh the RgrRcegulatOry-3.f t witnesses likeiw tco eGNPI-Oo,

25 4

ro_ S- _ , - -mft-6,'Ofl,,Y I.

PL p,',. . .. = ' •c edu e O portionls proPO sdU Point 2 concerning tc ecOn.c 0 osts, the 2ra 3 0'1 closed e tof alterative the and a° siis COO,~~ st,.asasnWell ei ase %the benefit/cOst cooling sysite t,,v

Cro.ss"" ; sec,.tion th£ KRCOVEN ~ -'

M7; stemS .,, iiCycle C"Go-4'n y~

a U cjuestions to? shoul direct these 0themtm o,. £1 San di•ect 0 1 Car ter. MYO CJ~TCfkfY~ P4 I ro Cart,er ~have you reviewed .the co't for tha r ~ air. ,,h-,,vc,cooli g sySts ~13 implementation of al,;C ~.cd e ,.e 3 to the by.. 1 ''1 itttiNO0 0 C: ssO on 4 byi. . Edisoni+ptansmzttsd to thhe

S i " eIvironMnt...... 5. 72

Yes, I haveI WTNESS CARTER: conidenkc5 in ' haIe, 5 ufficienlt RoCo u: Did yot in the .... to inCKI.de them these pre.~~r esk.f,.ted c II prepared for. Indiah 3 , ,,--. hich was i'P?,,rO.,a E3~ Stat 2 point 2? ? to? . t aOe you efering "CART flhtcfl coS

-ve closed 23 The alternatives? a the The Costs for O Mr" COHN 24. those yst.t the total generating costs for 25. .yoolinge Ij930

* raiC3A systens. o

.Ro ,.RYiA.Q is the questioZ;i does ha have coiEnce

he. incorpo7t'e tl-"er bot l? d i' the9 or did

f ...Q. MR CGFX-MX I asked i.:F he hadI 51 the Final Fn ni-n 5 1 'confidence to reflect those costs in Statement° I believe it i pcrats both a

te csc43e;d rzyt:Ie. cooiiu IT3S: TIhose are fox s ing alte:rnati.ves,aR. c......

e a h t N-"r"s C,,R -ERt I d.l tC)% o!

a tte .t - actually had confince in t ral> didn t have the I given in Supplement 2 because we est I.mrtes to go in anZ ..... details, 'the detai. led e"gipeering the backfitting of. the cool hepm ottc factor involved is pond, spray ponCA to t-he "aastf 15 n towmers for he coOling done. There reallyK hasn't been system that would have to be :Ara, 'muc 7 .. .p e 1i ie'It e I !s1txc in that plain t "atrf.as sub The we. did look at the plot .that thhere was perhaps a more I ml-tea .n this and we could see

closer to te to get the cooling ele ment 20 deal , location and reduce costs that way. 21 u.it it wcould be serving into a rock t-at we would be getting Z We realized .ere. Yo had Unit had one unit operatilng 2 xcavatiomn You you probably want and Unit NO. 3 So 24 No -2 almost complete o n for rock excavati . Qt"hink twice about uS ng explosives I n t w c b o t % 6931

estimate the amount really had no figsures to *aail We

oy hi of r ckeI being 2:sr' Q

a . That co,0u:iL b hifhop

we had to assuite j , t.ih-t allj. ithto -figures and also i' was rea-sonafl C -apt these O that f um - evl ha .xeve a~lter'natives fel l in the ydIu t.q flinheudig level. that 7 beca2S tetre dra-Et-- cooling -tower to, that the natural 3[wowld erpect th m of the alternatives 9 mould be the Vlore cxncefatve much for youx MR CONN: Thank you very 0 v;ugge~S'zior.' andue have also:) not-ed your <,,pa~to t e n a ,Am a t e h e na th a d .'0- ast nn , t.,..... e e'lC ]fO%~m di4~ th-e

three in its vupplement nuter , ta:anM3tted by the Applicant report? to its evv.i.tit-meta:onmna: 4id WI'NSS &A.'PWEAP- Yes-. w'e 0 rect t1hat you used these GR.AHEN z And .-m. cor in you had sufficient confidence 7 estimateL, then becusse addition they were . estimation of cost and in 8 utiei....t. systems? other costs for comparabe ! ~1 verified for were, but the same rNX1N!ISS CIRRERt Some elements cost that much experience the-re. 2i I backfittii , there is not NoMrally couldn't compare theya0 dexerienoe an~d we real.ly ApliC a ft'S cost at hs level the te Staff does acept T which es timatet MX you The cost estimates w MR0 CO913I:1 Thank 0

25 6932 * the c'st lqppLemZe-tIlso 1 ' ere presented in 'Zo 3 and 5w .. ~vtn~ oVa , -., vt,ou have ...... cted in your 'n-j Cons3truction e t te wi.k r'h-e el, -efect esiwtC . St )S imullt tVSt-l rlec COnstrU~X jnt it true that..the'secs stateaet. closd cve cool 4 costs for ituplementtion by 1977' atherA than 'an afraid- you have hee by 1,975 Ili system ueeDs zo heC tio JN £ C ould yo," G cgax}.', csnvsroflfsnalco St C .... in the Final

hO25 costs are ~-&Z COHEN?- Yes. The 01 1 JA-R. 1135 o

TiN- t2E: -lh'fl yot Mmr, Carter, is it tZfe

for niir cost -.tifat set 14 thatstate4elts the ,1-2' .5 thr ough !ii93 should be modified !.n5 some way to reflect the later cons trUc-ton dates?

h ey sh o u ld sh 0e0c u-d b e T .,SS C A RT Y es$ 17"IT tbre years. 2 bea8 estimated for you. MR. C0UEi- ThanI-

10 20 21 2,2.

25 24 6933 til

vCu erXtair if you would 4, A±. iL4Q jENSCN Vaud t h c±eialC f h if;Zu-d 2 pieare, the diff:C:.E D, 3 1972 or !978 -- 975 and 1978? App3J1Oa,.2t s Yes . haLCWmaflo The A MR COXW;N a e-Ortc Svtpp.ee'nt'c o 'v supelet to its e e t . oa st estim-ates o . closed cy..e a t..... we

- s hese cos, 7 noolifg sys e I' . - do'Llars ,,!mee .- 011J= nor O 0. c0. OT co xt) so. t ,.ereC.Ou. 1972 dol-S ucwcf contruction in 1972 J_1 97 estimat'es for ogperation factoed 1Pi.o .thesecost ...... N*1owW based upon the Staff s .r.ecowe.d ti.n-o C to the Final Envioflal t sx--maryxinuhe and concusison ha7C suge st i 'a.or Indiant Point 2 , they to cons1trlclt -upon Conso:lidated Edison I6,'ndit3.Of be ltaposed t r n y 1978.Te. , 'e ' 'zdope~a , a _Iosed ay cl!e s s . m d/et c~aoperatets . it has to be "that yeat: dollas 4n-tever yea:&c that begiUs wonde-r-ing if ;kt was C:AIEMEN JENSCH: I vas

.etirely the Staff.

Wk.. 0 C&/]EN:. Yes. you. Proceed. CTA4XtFMAN JENSCso Thank you famliar with the C&HOUEN- JM. Carter, are

16.... ' , w.ork whichn would be equlred for the

draft closed cycle wet , klmpevmtatioyn of a natural In gener;.- at Indian Point 2? -cooling. tower system ,5 .W.SS C\AR o In general: yes° 2S 0 an e 2 1~bgInt i troen tttato4tZ 4o-peL%r t a i,f, e Li ins Poin 2 con t-'fsd 4' o2%Of a COS during tCa on Str Uc Point 2 wil1 be O..crat..t 3 1 Cycle Cooliflg, zyst&ID?&

2 9 LWUIC(ThZN: Yes

iht I cycle coo iilg sw'steID. itr cr'nsttactiQa Of. clo sed so.m e Poiwzt, 2 be sihs;t down for be req ired that. lr-d7an

period of tinae? at' s ? CARTER: You mean for cros 7 WITNESS Thas That is cor--.

That-Tkiiinra~t

agee 4rat such outag gER. COUME~.' Do you not It vten estiWCIfl the costs me cost Shouldbe "ncludel or downati oin t 22? 17 agSSfevrt-=

- cooigstcnatIiiaont2 I of closedI cycl In your WY1SS cnTx.crZP,+ That all deexVds. 22 that because not include cny cost for Supplement 3, you. did dore dulring4 the nozwal , that it Could be -you assumed, I guess outage. 214I twoc-month it. you: opinion that the mVo COM: I see. Is a non'aat two-month outa-ge? 0 cross-over could be done-in :1 couldn't say util I saw the 5 XTNtSS CA i' 2Rt It II 6935-6936 .:final design and saw rhat waz involved. .:. eat 3 XWS CQiifgThem-k you,. Mr. Carteri te

Aplicant wouV mubami a final design 1ut1ic -h 4 U stated that dow,n ire.-, or oa .,ure tiz' wod be .quivalent f to approximately i.i.ve to seven months for- this crjj WovC r,

wo-ulld you then think that the cost. for a c"Lose cycle

2ool.ng system wYould be increased?

ZjhX~w2:Does theaw- -'cns feJx P3alifIer

to es"ponf to that suppositon? 20 UIUSS CATE1 Well, again, T. would. have to II repeat I. would. have to see the design and i. it

17 turinec out that it Wrfoul& ",lnde, take C muc'h, t--en9

%3 of course, the cost of the downm. tine adcz""onal dow

25 tine over the tw'o,0onth per-od would have to be incu'ded,

Yes, sir.

CIUMT Y JENSCI Excuse me. aI interrupt?

17 In other words, if I understand your answer, the fact

that they mbmitted a five to seven mconth dowm tim.e projection 2Owouldnm t necessarily be a guide to yo-u,,? You would er:e.mine to see if it was reasonable? If you could do it without tob 20 miu-c out:age time you 'would stick with the original

22 presentation -vouldn t you?

23 WITUESS CRBTERg Yes, Sir.

24 C1E&ThMuN JENSCU: Thank you. Proceed.

25 MR. COHICN Do I take it then, Mr. Carter, there 6937

.o .y he co s t o.. r. .... n t b e en a .... GzynS the which you haqz n _a outage cost in .he figuveS

Final sv.. State-? haMeN 'c. CART mop Orh therce 4 H ~WiTNSS

I5 1

VP

6

ii(

* it.'

@ 'I 6938 I 11. .as ther -t020 for dt.-,in 'ii *arl :o . o I .' a or oata ge0 toie wh"cu ight be I

Point 2? - has, not. MICESS 'CARTER .~ thereB~ 41xur~, MR~~~ COHEM or -a 'cr a I Chai fl

Cl{AIRNAN JENSCH: 53ural

9 along nt' , i4R:. Cum Yq d Like to move scrhedule for ,_ Chairml and discusS the construction

C13AXI3UN O1NSCu: Proceed. continue to direct, th1ese MR. COHE: Should I

10 questALOf to you MLAC Cater? try and tIeld thobse WITNESS Kr-2IGHTON: I will

things. Mr, itnighton. MR. COHEN Nh'ank you, e,1tat comstructiO of mr. oKnqghton do you agr Point 2 cooling system at Indian an alternat" v closed-cycle t owsr anatural draft wet cooling 21ii specidicz-lY one utilizing coestruction? three years of actual ?. system would require are the estimate we WITNESS MIGHTON These S have, yes. The schedule for the MR. COHEN:. Thank you. ii 6939

1, 10,i, , 2 r vs;tui't Indian 42om by JaA-m3i,,Y

z t the 1.*t la~ the Fial a in'iti 0~ ir-basead z"pmvs a constructio. an 4 -and cacius.ow; an &pages7, uc iO thre, .,a.G actual CoAnfl t A Schadul of

: It alcw,', for design a a6 6 WITNZ2SS KNIGHTON.- am& a.half x-e,ght. I costxuction of abut .h-, mfl.., COHEN Thaxmk you.

9What phase of the schedule tor.'o " ' would cowe coo'in iasyte wlCo 10 of an alt'smative cosed.-cycle ahme , j u..t befoEare the ac-, ..a.- the WITNESS KNIGTON: Approval, I belle~vc.of

.3,' government agenciE3Io have MR COHEN: Av wa 14r, rGCsipt of stecicationo, the 15 you c94ders ed the :4suanc * of bids, and the awarding of coDeacts?, w.auld be within the thre WITNESS KNIGHTON: This asss . and a half year prodonme would n-t- ago you stated that 9MR- CHEN: A amid and a half years for design 20 you conidered three yAgyte.m. Are you an altemfative c o 21 costructo of you conroidw and a half vears ia hat 22 saying tha. tbaeer awarding desntga isuance of opcifications, 23 appropriate for contracts of bids and awardrlg of I24, of contrads and receipt system? of 4n alternatve cooling 25 and onstructior a n it doe'e~ t all ha&lce to bedn 3 LaividuaJo,"ms is the ba.V3.E Of t*LS, assu~x-pon 4 Point in titpe 0 Tho

wia o osrc.0 rit CRN HeiavG YQU C:.Ixr

G im Mr.CctO1Knigony~

l.ike to, die~ct eo atttion 9 ~Momi; I'~d period5 just before cosruction my13attenjtiont nv te the 09sO cgia dein Th prprto wh ch may o~~AP wit cot racts b~o th ward iaq of 12 tions tha rcea.pt of i~.-P~t .sayi-ng 'kthat Ute - - approximately Is ~Are you there, i3.c yov ,k aiay approxi2as1T1Y 14 perled that y4Y~. hd1v( that Va ~ei ~fcea 15 three years LOr construction, tile reccipt issuanlce of~ spacificationo, 16for/th .resitems~, the ao ntracts? ok bids, and the awarding. I am Gayiag that thlat Is 18WITNESS MKSEGHTON- Atar y ou sudies have been done. 19 ufficiet after certsin ~bid which is systsr o r on P0 have decided. what are ones, mnajor its-m-ie that based on looking at viaxious 21 work izs are itvlvd -Nterthis Inrvolved, locations~ that whereyou can Vtei. set up a s~ituation~ 23ne yo hvpretty 0define fwnctionai- rquire. matte you would not be lovw as u nrtand t 6941 d

that Is cpaiAAtc do that 4 I. woulasumz anorgani56zatio!n and does that as a prvduct3.ina design! So that DC They in tuIrM do the detai thf...to ms eves are. not a maMoC t4-.he P rcpar.@at of l the -- wouWcl not e pC. t~ixn-CCon~tumi9 item0 The on zt e .therThatg x y' bidding to be a -major long-tctn

judgm~no-w0 112 '5

237i7

4s 21

5

I 6942 1.3 I .... are You assming 14RU COBl-Nt g Is t.i9 co ;

$ toaer c " l,- the cooling tower._ in that answver that the cooling a l wha...ei., 4$ nawafactl.fl'er will be the individi or corpoation, the cool:i.ng zAlterati.e? that tqi31 be doinCg the design for thdy WTEN,S KE±G&TONO i am only assuiUng

-if that is w:hat you are -141. do the d.sign ot the tower,

going to use.

is wI .ho.-S Ivasa asGiNaS1Eing, and we have said

fraom the Aplicant t ... we would like to have Of the vari-u .ent by 1 july 173' his evaluat on of those by -the various 2 At tha-"poi. in timi, eva'fluvion given, and at Lha'htL agencies ca. be male and approvals . yourj the Applicafl , can th point in time. ,ithin a fewty mrionths

'Move "n the right direction. k,1R, C0H F' Thank you.

r- inighton , the evaluation that 17 MR. TROSTEN 1973, was you were requesting by JuLy 1, alternahtve economic imp'acts to the 19 of the enviroflteftal and not correct? closed cycle syste-, is that is correCt. 21 WKITNESS T-,IGW2ON: That

22 Vm.o TRC-STEN: Thaflk you. ofa'. wq I. 'IR. COHP1N A-re you aware lr. Knighton, 2A in, CO.P&fies might have the requirements that utility, the receipt of bids and the preparation of the bids and 6.9 1,,. t2 awarding of onta-s

';_he 2 .ITNESS .MIGHu.o es. have been on

3bidding side and kn.,w it quite wiell.

At Td o CG- EN Have you cons.ide'ed that -in your

6 WITNESS r~lIGITO'N Yesa ancl they can be very

7 efficienlt when they iw.ant to be o

0 ii suxeo 8 COUE-94 me ha. is true, I a mtter o 9 VL,.NESS TIOi 1M Telephone bids as a

or federal agencies fact0 .BNz ,. ntState

" 2 have requirements for the submittal of speoificatiwnls

.13 et cetera? we 14 WISS IIGIGHTON Weil for the most part0 some,O 5. :eect the state of New York to haveo IWe may have requi.rements as 4 16 requiremnts, build.in codes; you wilhave

17 far as we are con-cerned to look at what" is going

18 on and these types. agencies from the S-ate 19 CO.EIN: T*RoWhich particular

20 of New Yozk would be involved? know off hand. 21 WITTeESS KNIGItTON, I wouldnot really donut think V.R KA AM: Mr. Cohen, I

23 that is in the expertise of the witnesses.

. mp CO-PLON: I would like to know if they have he has considered it. Iconsidered it. The witness has said yes, .6944

that he - they have *a3 I VIR. K- ec indicated 7 that must asstmed certain prerequisite pernfiits or approvals 3 11be obtained nighton that 4 rz.o COaMw:. IV it true theng Bmr. 0 tim for this section you have considered sor e indefinable do not know exactly of the schedule, harmver; you yocrself Con. Edison to issue 7 what req?2i-teft.S&-re ne¢cssary for contracts? specifications, eceive bids, and. award this cz.n 9 WITNESS 0IG1GHCOW: We have assumed time, yes. 15 be aCcoapl- shed in this per.riod oi wtt1.1 ObvicuSly you cam 't get approvals on a design "ai-tactUrer " the the desiqn is forthcoming from the depends on when you get that., 13 detailed design, so it reail going to review your design '4 If a state or anyone is an example, they, would haveto 2015 :for safety, some code group, as detailed design. That wo&ldnt be available '611 -have the completed the design.; '2217 tutil your manufactuxer has Stuctural integrity of the cooling tower is an

about, and that 19 ,erample if that is what we are talng when they see the detailed can' only ba determined by a group

21I M sdesign.u u i ot S W. Mair I ask you a question on that?. 22 I

23 \pproximataty how longdoes it take for a company devi ce itselif to complete 24 -which Is designing the cooling design for that devtc( 25 t1hat particul3ar device - that particular would vaEY dceIEmeding #aESS KNIGHiTGN: That 2 Wpo the product.

Cool:Aing yteml w 4 0 Q~U~ O~aclsdcycle

thzree 7 too vyho build Ead desin thesev haveS ±ul-I&.td.

%We h~vl gotten a brea-doun ~earsy fo taa~ C09Srciq th ey ~ehal :on when th deig : aale and3 when

th&t. I Un It budid. TWe have niot loolked -I.ntlo Are you Suggjestingi , Mr. EvIghton~ 1' ' MR HY in Constructing a 519- that the processes thai: one goes througch be f ox the, E 4i;eycle System. VOt Inadiarn -Poizri vro-od and the isslauance o~ bids aanc th eetoL.d thai tiae. th fna desiqn is awrdn of contrat8 and then at

'q&the Sstem would be made? right. Final design. 17WIMNESS YUNIGTO~1 Thazt is ybu ara bidding qng P,f the comonen~t of thaat, Ndiatever orgarai~atiofl to do ynSyo u are goiP4 oirt to an tnginiizering differzent Situation.e We 20 :ths c:Oxnpa ete design. That is a rz powsibilily not mine. 21 are getting 1-to areas of your iJU length of time. and ,these 22 hehad t o -aPnla soe judgmonts at by our biologiset and we 23 judgments then had to be looked going to be. Thlat 024 -had-to determ~ine -what impact this was -years, taking the ontaide nuniber. 25. is how %,,, arrivead at our five 6946

MR0 OHEN2 We.Ll, I capprecialte that this is,7ourj

jndgmsrit and that is whtat we are -lryinig to find out, what

your thoughts were about-this.

MR, T-ROSTEN. May w*e confer ora k~oenr.

Chairman?

CH-IRMAN JENSCII., Certainly. 1.3 (Counsel conferring. emis MR. co~1E The problem, I tink, that we arce 1aving here is that there may be an e'lerant that we are

leaving out and that is -',you said before that the- - a

cooling tower mauactre~r which thr.are a tew different

Z7 ones in thca United St~ates at this tima, w,7,:lCA be doing the

detailed design '%-or the coolinq device itself, is thatC corract?l

19 W~iTl"NTSS KIGHTON: I a-m msuing that.

02 In order tco implement an alternative closed cycle cooling system at Indian Point, there is -more that is needed

than Just the cooling device itself?

WITNESS M1NGHUT0N~-. Certainl5y. Certainly.

_MR. coHENm is it not corrlect Mr.0 Kn1ightonl, 20 might be designed by' a particular utility, a particular site,

or sevgeral different companies, they may.-send it out for bids,

23 or vhatever? WITNESS KNIGTON. That's correct.

iMR. C09HEN:. So that there !Ls another area of 6947

ccitract, mi speci.ficatio and .i of Arnot correct*?

, bds rh eco S et 'those TWAds rLlnd 1t0 .eceive ths id ~ ai tl ..... toat pa-ti u±ai or vwhateverp the deeig-n of .c of tChe system m~u"t be corr-A, ' ,y .requies .,.,, HTO-,¢ . 3-t that VISU&" iter"; ,:,lait 're...... e. 01 Sal-og, major L"s ,9 the knowl! dg

detexmines the design of the anxiliary meats* i~t aswhicTh then S yste"'U.

the coolina' deviceJ MR. COHEN: Are yo thalhin. about

at India Po n t 2? You are talking ahcw wi,-1 ES I.G.HT I sp.. h a t h v e .- y u . I pumnps, p iping, w a

might be an area ..here there MR C N there and one of .,aewareas one of design is specifiatioas and bids and contract,s, several areas there. NESS XNIGHTON There are 19 WI and I am including the specificatio'ns P-0 MiRo COMU14% as one area, aw arding of contracts 21 the bids and -the rightao WITHESS FXMGHTON: All

H N : Thank yoli. 23 11R. CO E is it true baclcoards, Ithen, Mr .!ightofl 24 working order to have a Staff believes that in 25 I that the RegulatorY 69I8

Oezating by Jantuairy 1 98~ *3 ~e -C' cooling System an must 'beg~-i7 a-'C least thiree p p3 arati~oP for ~ltruct.ofon baedi ;.-xoxf th~e arious,eleents S aha~ y~r prox to that and on des igne~d a d h~ hy:r adhow they are going 'Co be at least three, to: be bid myb a little bit lonq;e four -rears? 6 threa and a half years,~ per'haps 1;0sad on, the e-p~2 7 ~J~NH:is this Indian Point1 2 aspects? 8 of the con txuction oZ.

0 (Laughtere

Origin-a1ProjCctionls You vwant- to GltraP:Olate on the 11 to 10 Flaybea you w~ant .14, extend it 11 Of t~he ac-tUn e-peri.Once?

Year or Something lik.e that. (L ughi, ter . it solely on cooling tow4C-r 1 1 O~r are you basing~

15 contr~ct-atof? on. cooling to,wer construction, 76 MryR. COHN% Just

17 M~.Chairaail, Vemy well. I PO CHAIRAN' JFNSCH: As X nmetioned eaxlier , -w*e 19 ~WITNESS KNIGNTONk. a half year's our etimate aboiut three and 20 hawre allowed in which Aisafl the design 21 for the design and corantloti, are depending oa whatfaver you S 22 can go on f or two years, can be ovelappin'g. p3 designing and construction~ answer your question? 24 Does that It isa answer. 25 MR. COHEN: kept 90oL11 4 f;o!& hre 0ri3 3INSVI~T I t knovl YOU~ouwcIj~ fourz Yeavs. A-dr 2 uth-e auad a half

3 StOp0

IYIR.COYI: am haVYIaS-1

O ae'h 00;1c ojr ndte design end

2, Car7ld te at xnd;iam 2Cinft io eete~Icopa~~-~ o th WUld taketrey8. S talm and probably

Y012 strange to ame that r oianis And it appears an integrate Gjatrga systc~m can be const~ucting which has to be revwed em.G uhich has -an itegat At 0M.-C iiagine, by -the In de-pth, I V00 -to be reviewed a =tideof. e.Sntamiscn Enegyo-nyrssinqfor think designinfg. I Wjoujd and still be is c-bak onl ConStrUCtin be distinct Periodsc hat there sh-ould t9 designf is one type of -.I1GHT'ONto Thera 20 ~ WITyySS what you desig. ou YOUnow go through fnctiCnal 21 -Where you want to do,, Yes. 0W CORE11: get to tiw&t pinlt? TI~ITESS KGXIO Once YOU th~ desijgning. FrOM Y1ou halve detailed Yoe havre Su-designing.3 you YOU Can describe various CMMrPOneflts fun tionla designhing In 'has to designl what goe want. At some po0int somebody l~iti01 YvOU -.ie those designs5 arou-nd it between. Rid you ca t w 1 1 ama f3 I in isthti-Cn have the comnpXent Al as in a turnkey' would be -. such doing -this design,~ therG of syste~ri thse tirie and procflirersent jobo design going on all ij '-I~ mean that ail one point complemefl It does not OT is tWhal we are t.-yiflg to do yoiav te o-m-J~e4-a desi.gfl wee_, how.: you, the Applicant, can w-e ake tryinlg 'to picture this period of~ time. t -14 lon will it tae This isn't a case Of how it talke. 7 is a case of how long ca= Mr, Raightoh ther. MR. COHEN: Ar YOU S'gesting, to that the Tpplicant do is 9 tha~t what you have suggested On closed cycle coolingj sYstem 0 vdonst'uct a an alternative

an expedited scedu~le. If , I believev is tight WITNESS KMIGHT0N: That 0 concerned about statemenlt sails, we are 1 you look at wahat our for a five in~ looking at it, have allowed the impact and we,

year period on the outside. samue time you would not MVIR. COHEN: But at the scheduale be recorflUended. 23 suggest that an unreasonable LS alternative, of course, TqIT1%WSS IMIWJON: 'The built, That maybe until you get it to shut the Plant down&

is an alterna~tive, tOO0

1 1 itIi 69 51 recaimenfded 'chalt iR the1 MR COHEN,- You havenet 6Mi 0 hava_ yo~u? Fia EVirce Statem~ent, to ithe. extent we do not W3WTIO ES S KNIGUTON: Yes;~ 8 a, oncei ahro iagh op rA--ifl aft r jja S y 1,39 - v c you

5' sys tem. inf you. Have you consideredO 6 1"R . CoRIEg Thank p ssibility Eoz 'exredit:ed s hediaile the 0 7 qe-ting forth Ohis a dditional costs? axpei~sq,. ,. yotl WNe assimiag~ an MR, RARNMR.: 'Mr Cohen said iit could think that -- Nrx niqhton 10 schdule. I don't 9 t knowi If: he said period of timie0 I don 1'! be done in jiat tht 0s IT don't know how epedite 12 it could be done. Knight-on, and I mgtbe CORES- I thought mrr 13 MR,, Schtedule. that it was an ex~pedited ~4incorX'ect stated the January The tinle periodi involved, 15 BIMR. ~YAN which vie have is aA end point bayofl-d 6 1, 178, period, With a Once through the plant not be operated 17 reomnded that that it is evaluation has inaicaced -1 cooing syst'eniloOur can have this clesed that the Applicant 19 certainly cOnceivabla- that dates. System finished by 20 Cycle cooing'~ be-advaftageous and feel that delay wovid 21I Ifyou e don't feel it is have- i.t ex~pedited later, a esnb 2.then We1feel it is this, stage 0 ex~pedited at n31ece5sarily inltalled0 time to have that Ssteift. 0 .,period -of

14 .B .6952

h eorte,r ,OEA back 1 B MR. COW: MpgtIXav

particula! que3 ti~n? that ection Where as~ked tbat trcy it again? CHAIRMAN~ JEN~SMH Thy 'Ao. t yo __ 3 ~, agin 4 Give L'*- to the2 wi.0S6 I really would VIR. TTLPSN:U" Ca-mn

6 rather hear he answer.

CHAIKAUM USNSCH: Al2. right. as~ requese. (The raprtOr ~E th,(, ricord You SggeStIUIg, 1"r Khtn 9 YU1.~4XCORFUAM Axe be~ accm,11Vished A a conceptuma" 10 that ir).1tially what iust

which may overla 'I4h-La consitruction 15corract? Some of b othering) imt a IKNIGHTOUS; We.1L, -what1-'. 1~6 14ITNESS and polmt we are woxrking at the 17 ittle bit here is tChat we No one h&z recognized tnhat is ra-t-er than at the bginn±ing prepared on various~ alternati~ve have asked for a study to be and their impact on the envrXP closed I ystems~ their cost have performtd one would hope that you 21 aent.. Now from that, tia you on to etalJ~ish basically anough of the documentati detailsI that', are in there. 23 want. There are all the by the concelpt at point. Thatlo 24 At least you had

1 January 1, 1973. ar2

M R COHEN: x New let me ask you ti251 That)

i nitial comncep'uaai shechedule, schedule dhet;atde .gn, :4 how long --- let me ask yourza what is iavolved t; '.L,'t of desiga?

5 WITNESS xN:CGHTON: In this -tviy? M3R. COHEMN: Nor not Snthe stu~y. InK11i

Ute of the particular 7 initial design to datermine paxamaters

syswn 0

: WITNESS KNIGHrON: To establish what h neating Charai CtAera t2 of t"he partiu.±ar equiment is going to be,

the dry wall, wet wall tprtus' yma? aw, oigtoue

you on using. .That'.s very 12 aOpreach, range, flows p3.an

critical to vwhatever" you are goig to do iut once you

ower rl h deig of a' celig esItablish tlhtD - thatc 23 as an aaampleo Of coaurs., you must give him als. 6ther

envirowentaia aspects he has to -be concerned about.

MUR COHEN: Are those the type of th.ings which 27 out 'for bids? is you write up in specifications and send. WI15NESS KNIGHTON c Yes o 19 MR. COHEN: Thank you. 20O Aftar the conceptual design that you are talkl'Ag 231 about tG deterinine the outside param.tar, the parameters of 22 operation of a particular sys'em,i tsn t there something called 23 a systeam design or a group design? 24 I would hope so, yes. 25 WIT1NESS RNIGHTON: ar3 iiMR. bCEN:Who woulA make this design? Wher _ does- :it com-'s (Yaol.

One Would cirpect Ccmsoidatsw 3 TMUflNESS I{NIGUTON: - some that overa,1l L degn You ray hire I. Edlaon would be doing

job do.t knmow what your 5 consltant to do the whole approaml would be

7 VrRo COHEN: I aee0 5 the one who did 8 If Conso &2,ted Ddison weae .w then, or .o- 9 that paicuar desiga send that o ut for btds and In that desgn, then they would

zpeciticaltioms, whatever? woYuld KNIGHTON- .9. -wFould assuma thoz.y 7WITNESS f-rom It. 'i3 prepare SpeCISications

MROl CONEN: I see.~ you have A 1 WITNESS KNIGHTON I unaderstand so far. i quite a bit of that wuor"k

MR. COHEN: I see0 design whch o done Is h me any other type of spec1fications othar than these .pxior to the preparati.n of

on your approach you WITNESS KNIGHTON: .apand. 21 design there is a lot of detailed want to take. As I say, think of omething and the day to be dons between the day you it depends a lot on the approach it Is runing.o When you do times you have a turnkey that the orgaritzatimo takes. Many 25 a'r4 building job where zomeani has the job of designing it znd- he is designing and bullding 2 1 it and all -the way from day one dslgniEng 3 1 and correcting mistaks which cal-s for more I But I don't know exactly how you axe gcicng to1 dO . sh have a fdveeaz' paiod to accorlp 5 it.. When yvu know vou so thngyuproch that In one dirct-O05,Y - r e:psct a timn4 .J:U:it o.I you. I would 7 to where you don't have m =et the particular 8 you would be able to figur' ene way to 9 tLmt limit..o

Do you kunow whsthE& the ccrt 10 MR. COHE2: th In thOe EAllnVX1(~VaI 12 estimate s that have been s o ba ed upon statement for Xndian Point 2, 1f those co~tS w14re job? approacb in a construction a particular m=nner of N . Tha'eS cktNIGt!Ob4:Ocnceiable . 14 WITNESS asuma that, C a M5.. ,O-.Iit reasmflaZh to

the cost baaed upon their usual constxc 16 Ed1eion estmated tion prograw3? 17 W.TNESS XTI,i G .O' I thought tsay basedqit IPO-n the point you just made 1 ,'1having them built by 1975. 'h-e is. for them to be 20 2ha0t you had allowed in yOur estimates :tv for the Cscalatio running by 75. Now -- we dian,'t ai 21 to 178. 22' follow MR. COHEN: Well, one doasn't necessarily 23 coreStr-c'Lo t . the other. '72 to 175 was for actual what it was. staxted the next day to build. That's 25 I ~WITNESS NXGi-!TON: 4 tha the SC~iiEN oI by , h .af xa. ht b e 3 rommendation vo-y.. schedule for a cvkpa,,z A., z jould .. be the usual c; h a coSt 9 imle n ... considered e additional 0e&a' % to x~nW 6 schedule? WX~IVITNESs KNIGHTON:

necs .a cost° Weacp S down a tA coot that yo Pc~P we nave anrt Otha Co5t" v We judge the, •~~,3n see at you h ha OUo zs'emX csss But we we see big dif 10 hard for anybody and this is very the pxoblam' of~ bac~ttlg, a C 3O3t Much it is gog to 0al how h it to oant pLinc I thinkl co.parnig just m Wu ... it would ap aX E t 9 take ~Oaof Sned L,n .ized £ the at t e are t5lbat thee. is p'let n of money e That' just a it done i ve t-his job and get:iLg COa~f=%o oUCt Tohat s not a RegulatOTy a 3570 r~gawatt I 1Riean as an xp ' Trojan has buIding th. $14 mniliof foz m0l o e o and they have hes b 19 hher al reac*toA -2-lowed that .3 to be a bt of money tower wi'th qucte 20 and any cos, of runxig that toer prSent].y working the 21 deficit in gensrat'On, but as I say, there 15 a big

tWo nulebars difference n the dLsparagng -big ou-' too much with V 23 So we did nOtv conceX th- things - I think th-se are 24,. tt 25 6957

one 0 e-aL ar6 you re talking aot xeI~. t 'Ue h ~tu td~

tip.ao in mch quicker ,RoCOHEN ° Tankyoa .l .. ° ugtO you dd yno u scheub

-,ul'Wr e-IL,? Aae-riO o:

WTNS 3 ( 9 uj.,,t o

.r -.. pe o pt y -Iny

h e r. t O u r o t -aveh .o ono.io VIP Hv,,1 WY oe ther

14 MI&• Gu0pt . lt oES' y tht Let MG correct it.Ys e 1 hav e had toD :3 JR NCOHE S RN G T N l ~ and you aro !,a - j~apU j:-b~ C : i g1COLE n !le theide ButOr $ arm talking i con~rd -- Safety nwth a we!awr It thatiohad tO coe ab~t--yOgSr e h

. ,.a"-v to o ed m d cat o n to ou r Plan't .sapauise, tha Wh:ils there C}. L ENS 24£..4 i taff c-nf the AtORnic EMAergy oslinh.srteKw2d '? tower designs end propo~iid constxuct That s right WITNESS !{IRNsI:dg: hatbogt Atomic Eneargy CHAXPZvMN JENSCU- That i, te 6i the o d. of Conmisnion has already revi.wE~d for "ta... Do yo" cooling towers at Vern. nt 7arjzee, the cosat of tzhe Varnnt %snkoe kno1w whb.at the cost waqs of tower.s? cr-"s was WITNESS ENIGHTON -- The construction

about $20 mi tor . ttt at Jls1 hoaw c*HAIRmWAN J,3ieNg The zi~e of plant2." near the eop mtesze cpf this I pubc r e..rd Well, we can ooapare it in th&

with that. Thank yo7 , - won't bother you tower cost was out I ?A Do you know what the cooling 2 Planlt O'ZE haM? In Consumszo ?ower,-l Palisades

million. 9 WITNESS OESTMANN: wenty JENSCH: low did they get up to - 5 I CHAIR.V.N such a high cost area or what Is it, 190 millian? Is this to the dlifferen c? Is it delayed cost computed they jump What Is your judgment? How can Did you check the from 20 million up' to 190 milio,?

arithmetic on that? 6959

* IGHTON-- e 8h 92115

o t I oai.dn thP bigg- autiOn, bgges'6

4 problema ks hackletringo f CHAIXFC%.N JtNSC.: Wht Of itis- v.?hich ,z.re given ,mR0 cQ x thin.the coots are just oostructio,,5{ 7i to you for these, vari-ous coaling sys~tolwU loQ 8 costs. The costs which t-rha e -e,.td are Ehaar

S thie total. generating costs wiicoh includie manye other" Eactots

of the, partiularsyt 0 other than. jut atuzaR ?K1h2SKNGHTN: ~lit ws t-.. gi-ve him. the

!2 cnstoucto: costi of thue totters.

that we are talk'ing about her-,e? . MR° COHEN The constructimi%-- ost voul, b

DR. GEYER: Thank you. 17 CHAIRK.AN JENSCHz:nstaxim .

COHEN: Aga I miht add that hes costs i9 MR. even that cost Is Ahe3 proj ted cast for 1978. 20 I'd like to go along into the discussion of anvironmental effect8I~ frocm alternate closed-cyple cooling

23 Systems. bf us. WITNESS 1NIGHTON.: That wil.1 be both MR, COHEN : Fi ne.o 6960

D you ata:L yUrVt scheau)-G .-o- th .9 t 2 operati~~~lema 73r

o Deio Al'o f by Jana- 1, 1978E 6 I, eo the domwqt by that h t Y u h v .o lC O REN : 1 0 y o s ay i ng t

1I ifor OW tl 2 period I

-there 3i WITNESS O 0 NOV,9hw ybfL toay Ce kmowulec-h avai'abIG tchno3.gy and I we conrned of the 'ive-Vear r.ackidd evaluation in light about.

nve-fepriod w® atarinV 0 in light Of the Vou had eight yea:: 10 WITNESS KNIGHTON: IC sit back and ra!ie then obvjously you -ou'd year to do the job, job Of sva1Uatin the aMd maybe do a better 3 feld data alternatives. We o each of the different do .feel you varioug inpacts 9 tthae but we ~ yO~do t have bt o l-3 24 feel, ho-,e'a"p You don' 25 ir to -- uate the varlous have SffiCient infor.""'A these would be. for us and describe what by you are saying that vkp1.O COHMN : So what a valuati you want thias what date was it that July, 1973o WITNESS KNIGHTON: J ,s'b.'t you waitt .is the fl2QIR, o*is Jul,"COHEN: 1973, "eka, 1 01..

'-r:ite a particulax rpor .t? 2 Applicant to write just actually

wh,,,, 4~~tt=.et ts mo,~ n an,:: cf iaaelf- as ta jtly 1, the1973. it is undo": expect from t h e Applicant

Jml~xy i , o V-, umbe 6GFthe x

You e 11- 1 take it the 7 CHAIRMPJN JENSCl: o ,t '. t e-nd wl cluaeIo S Appi,oant will go right to w.oxk

the calculatitenS on what iSuch ; it vill take aiad put

';ill be? 10 the expect the result

a II tionso 1^ CHAIRMVAN JENSCH: Thank you. summary and MR. COHEN: On page 7 of the ±t calls conclusions to the P'inal vlStatement, .i.pactsIn order to 1 for an evaluation of environmental wvuld be implex'anted atc 17 det&ermine a preferred system which

13Indian poizct; 26 s understanding thaat Is it the Regulatory Staff' statement 3 to the environzmental the supplemant number not a sufflcent document Which the Applicant submitted was for i mplemnAtation at Indian to determine a preferred systezi

Point 2? We feel there WITNESS KNIGHTON: That's correct. to tlim we wrote that kxnowledge since the 25 h has been more arII 6962 arl CotE;av Plu ~ ha m 'j~ iiat some,

be there ., a re-evaiuatiof 2 n~ot been thrre that would

3 with theie knrwn dAtea involved. - 4 WTTNESSMCARTER: ay ,I add. tko th Georg age s just that. Tlwy do not select S The Regulatory andenOY The alad say0 They ,visi what you sa2nt :yOu2. 3Csi;q n for you the that is th -easo In a problem aea." So 7 "Here Is coolin eta& t -" . t ° Utn' out which

for a cfled-cyc device tr use.called

40 cooling system.

.- CON . Than, P,. t -;.h..... :; t .... , tha .;M -A, 3Uple:

utitrzj a-nd onv-,cossfrb-t 12 ae sxnvios!Vntc-d svja

sorrect 0wa ,,IR-0""TNSS .... "KNT-.GHTO: "-: Tha.L,, you,, cor

a . wao i:n* Su, ,tated tt. thehYou jtform that -aport tas probably S.....,.enronaltal to ths lwatnutaer 3 the preferred system for ot suficient t d tz t 2, but that ince ;. Ind a Point l• ,p0mefltat.o at 4 bavt&ub - recelvc which aidditio72al has:ta availabl -e No, we said It was WI~tNESS KIGHTON: 22 ,,rote been dVeloped since you in the iadustr-y, and has

that particular report. report filed? MR. CO".: When was that 6963

lON 2A.th&5t. 2 Z WXTHESSWITNErSS OBSTMARN:KMIGUT : Februa.{ryybruay

O~ ~ ~ ~R COHEN:.... a-_t ypa=r?

seed other "nfornat" rep:[ort-$P OMA.N~. . you will. have

7 which Is availabi.,

'3IIM 0, ~~

I

23

2.5 : oft additio.&L! • ,.."";v- .'e .ot a;YarC

;. . .o T e v r,.T

I is"a3.Z 42-,,.bite

n eerdga.lb.hnhs.e indicates.m-" oR" Snpimrt. eL:ya X Psu 5 1 nScti 3~ dge the ava.ilaibie you pe"Ople to eal aie 6 $o- us the rV the model staeeL meore. r CC' Yes. could VOU might be used t.y a :ahlc hat

eauatofl. by the A A.icant in a i~urther 1

iiius:Y t -¢%% oo!g being ithe-q'h" '4. a lot of "Work- and chemical ttowers and sp.ayS andi drop sizes has been going on :Zor a dispe,.aof aad so on that I On is coming to a ionclusiOn 1~ 0 years and daily someboQ" Mo~eh: .na' @' %ecing YMu to do it,6 0 iev.ew

you p.epare this w Me 2 is ava'lable when . this informatlon that furthe nfor tf e ajlble it is if thare is no have selected I fina] outcOle is, nat you th'en tell us wha' the 'is I thse.Ando why0 work have been doing a lot of 9 -' iIo know you You hase talked y'a srb-l itted that repOrto mak 2 of relocat.X19 the tower whfiich a;: in t Sc in you.M testimony, This is what in the overall evaluatidof a:4 a big dif.F-ezmaCe in t regard. :5 Ire are epecn I 6965 it o0 " Do stShe h" re.OC;tti.Cm 1 M7 COUEN 0A.3 cost^ ,o--both yqi . . could a .e b...h xtt eON ConCei'Ia 4 ...... hES-S... i7G

t COT; il -io.. CM •l . t the 4 .h d.- es t c hTh CO $ 'N L it

ds~ ; ~ t14 l '0~ WXTNE g I jHO-C~ it o... of salt dj3J.,. in teiliS of you" discUS1on sJ~ that you wast tO ;o I in lookingjv.j i decide k 9 as tEwe deSign° 0 W .. :-'; .... - o... :.iR. COEEN,' -is the ne I ift 'from an envirOATttsad i is

"bOIX? the cha,.ge in :tocati.on or Jo you warWt hiu' I .... Wi'Ot yo.....z,tate 15 to give apraisal r °fl he iissti He has thehe h VWITNESS TZOmn- 17 c nM judge it risrht m&.d i am not sure I gdk .% to b-a givnf 119 have to judai t gYou wouU

t s You don APPl c an q statement° on the basis of YOU? you s,,-i"t you an appraisal before. 2 I WaIS 1Ycc Chairmanlo DUP.~ COHE"7:N Ou 3 based ono. 2 hat that was his statein and 0 6nly to - or Ef hIave you 0 OnAuaCt 6: yszighton

Point 2 "' "deisat the Ind4ian Car.ter a Seak 3 , that i s cok tche- MEtCI

n... :us.scr:haebe , .. 1 r~i.. haVe A4.

gntle0-SAl- &Wa of M. K%.-re~ the CdyC2

.01orSbce? beeS CA ur to naa-u, 1odraft cool ing impaut oySnrelabi g CL-H7 2o0, sir6 ?n wl...eVe ecaKKIN'g~2S •agr..... 2ndL]ohoniad 5 the~ envi"clt~la MR COFEN: In order to d~etermin;Q

tweS Is Z"t'tUe jpact Of na:tidraft 033.2 & lowOt the, e-fect orF &2 ao dS I atvt further studies o-f be con.,ducted? '8 !sho-1ld I Tpaun;,ssch 7E.tat isk.U 0 t e fact that yu had rot s&..ect&

,;o,. ;sa o:it sde chemicalS for yourt 0 0 Qilg' I

a little pr-r...... to do Ith-at o - s t e Studies I WrtESS ivoq xy

4 for that? I J,%IO COHEN : yes 0oUvld y W-.-,-Ess XtW:NIGON What on site s-t13dies I there? I of the tower sittiZJ blowdow. cetcal o f havea of tak e sud2 e3 I N , vo u could I the rivet by the the various biota in 'what is happaning to I : a i s there 1It iay be particular che hiC U) additions of a -- of 6967

mid4 'th'eit h-Oitz

52 y.oo %G: ...... :. A

ASnWe.... will,JO discuss thes You haveG a Eli'e MRmp CiF %[ So th~~foe.,

r ' - in Oz.X- i tai e th the qest c- hat asked that of these co-ing tog" '"o it hm . [s , . MPact tde nte"" • " you need Eurther

base? e been oe ta ,11a.3"" jOH1L b1 up .to this tiliz

blan'ol-v~siML 09ica i COtin

M C Sties to a o te 1 here In s te tgt . hasg g£ P]-y said well., 22 b ~a in .hich% t has to be dMy 23 y-a to do 1e statod11 a .irYtiae i o Th6 purpose4qu OX .this S to find out whether. a-y t 24 to the gCuloato.Y Staff ht was ea.ya i"en by Ye ia oin.- this as C much tgXLC and &.t c le be iYol 6968

07 we.l do itSw That is-he wkoe oposed to s,ff rg sa

IO .o- the purpose ot0- Ii "- li dthinto Staff to say this is

a time be do-e in su0h &nd sutch do it, a.d then oay i't shaUL

is.s going Inhou-ht to hc 7, Ilong I A and then not to g'c any of -o to e done Tht is the. 6 totaeo na ought

ths -whole inquiry illft~rE:1'0 smm statexent cHAIln4all jENSC7R I the AEC Staff, Con Ediso:Lx Staff and from ths wit-ess to the Cad -ha th at perhaps they had Some diSCV-SSfOn

Co, Ed actuLly beecn doing ,methig...... a. wA.t s" acy at-l-v-'d study 7 codllnq tcwStthis. sing o:do they suppi'ed data on Locai h 2ve-they done? Have

to the Sa..? kmr it is not. auite that-y. MA. TROSTN 1 i - is t-What• TROS1htX r1 .

I to Irreh.gt-A.s t believe he is thait since October 3Oth .the e ti -ny of iro nan, the Staff has had a copO of . -.... of co rdisono . 19 Vice President 'a- ofgfered in evidence '. which has now beel 2o that has tO the nature of th.e work That testilony indicates a as t e time igivol a d gTes eaetiet s I. 22 be done are believe that is xwhat you- Vformin~g this wo:ko t 2' that i. the r'easo! why fering to. u seep that is -I these questions° 'ar a gn V o 7nijhton 'Ii 6969

' MR. TROST 91 5.hank V the f:r-ecTehQ , of •T CO.J, I it i=.... th;aL

the 'j* t , plu r a coling t:ower is derYM inea

! W .:tYes

• Ro7 O I : Do y o h- e "ze ix atra (,,q~ - .. 04...... R at the -l~d e si s •500 feet.

oA' two _.-.e

~GIST~G MR' 0 NO, don' t0 .I t thc the wind speed Rd

titiular site also affect the diensions f617 wind d:irectier..-a' a pa :ooli.%g tow,e;z of aplUi e from~ a atuzali draft

es ,I m Z G..q t -AP COIMN.- Hav "I'aU ~~%C~st widSpeed at 20-at ndianPoint 'to -e.emnthke towers? • 'a" e natural draft 21eevatioas apjlcabl to ,~.T .MRO:, S s N T N

23 2mi far afed When you talk about the OAtoml-aEnery Commission

Sding sie- tuies ~atMW ,rh 9Indian~ itpat thinkwear . gi

47 are getting pretty far away from tche -soiyt'hat l:.m-iied object.

5 ive of this yarti~ulpar hearing,.

6 We indicated ina Septenber of 1972 that we feel

S that- there was a -- t1hat t,1he conce through cooling -wouid lave

S a rather severe evi.;oniaen al im,,pact on the fl-sh and bicta

S of the Hudson River. Tle indicated -that the Applicant choiuld

10 evjaluate -- Ia~m quoting now froya seven of the suraary and

11 conclusions -- evaluate the economif- and eviroriaental jma,-E

1-2 ofan alternative closed cycle co& -ing syst-elU.1

13 This evaluhation shall. be made by the Applicant in

14 order to deter±t-u~.e a preferred system for installation. Now

Is the Atoma.c Energy Commission does not select. any alternative

16 system. The Applicant will aelect it. But that BOlection

17 will be svibmitted to us for review by Junfq 1, 1973. The Final Environmental Statement is rather lengthy and well

19 docu14ented as to what we think the imqacit will be with the

once through cooling and it is -- it has been our deterrmina

21 tion based on our evaluation that the Applicant can come in

22 by July 10 1973, with sufficient information. We are not mawkinq these studies. The Applicant is. I hope he is

*doing it now.

25 .CHAA JENSCU: You had just conceded the generaA' si~te studies Of atheoreticalS' 0 1 ~ ~ ~~~yfat 2 o m ada no on

one?~ the aplcn to select 2 because it 45; un to

That 9 s correct 0 3 PYR 0 NAR1IrA1:

ie o%7u 6 Profess to -know t,,. tti s right. 7 ~MR , KA q That we can save As CIA NSC~sm I think

an a nainohave to tellh whattf~i kin ofisyste SO closed cycletn system.h~~o You They perhaps would give a .1I you t1hirk would be preferred. cooling~ lt,,e evaluation. To go through ia. considerationl to have indicated, and so forth as you 3 ponds, cooling toxvirs time and doesn't exercise. It is taking 14 would be a useless o0_ the Staff vievy. ~5contribute to the analysiz May I speak to that? 16 mn. TROSTEbN: CHAIRMA JENSM.1 Surely Mr. ! azuanls remarks MR ROSTE: 1 mm afraid dizcassiofl the whole noint of the ~indicate he is missinig The barden a condition, Mr. Chairrv 20 The Staff has proposed. -6at forward with a case to ustify 2i ib on the Staff to come the Staff simply Karmal seemsl to think by S ~ a coniti.Ol Mr. July -1, 1913, shall be completed by s a~yiflg that~ this study by installed by January -- 0and that the systez' shall be Staff has -t-o do. that is all that the 25January 1, 1978, that Mi TAmIAt No0 r TrOStenfl .~sh? qp'a ,7 may .I-

case. What WOC- a y That js simply not: the 2 tStarealel to Crplore with the staff herte ,;,l thh wi ' v)wtt 2.,:) i d i CO1 fl r t cflto ,hat Ias 5 gaver amy co_ any considerlation 1# 1973, and reallY gave 6 a study-, by july cycle C. .! y in having a closed what was involved by...... :rCWt 'hat 7 to Ilsy 19738 anca i~ rAOU~d a.ppea' by Janua.rY 1.0 and it p installed We', will con.0cluded that they the staff simpy 9 we have said that t"e'"twa the' to the "MVC" aMd turn this job over thati U.at Simply tUis t'r0 aA '1Appicants job tO d-'to doalOf' the ,m,-L-tO is not the case, .he ,taff ,ust jstifv I 0f .jstifies he validity forth%evidence that 1 They must put al of. tie ot he% when bawtaced against "4 this condi.tio consrircA-Cse hat have to be ideraos Scons S r i g the $taff e!-')7 - ° a whether vme have been 16 Up to nwg enVir ~men impact regard to potential 7 ! conclUSionl with end that is that is wa will expl.ore that 18 was valid. Now &he Staff is also we will look at, But then 5 rsoething that the : with a case to Justify obgated to comeforward these instaliation Of condition for the Val ta preparation of this c l e system and for the of the closed Cy

,mpacts of the the envirOn£ eta! and economiC 23 st.dy of Mr Chai ao why we are exploring this0 2 _4:systele That is perform Energy cwaission that thle Atomic 4Weare not asking 6%~3

0 if- thDy gave an. consr.-o tion 41i I on Site studlies We are. asknng 2 t .... to "ho long a g aW..d it seer.s that -hey have

3 take to perform these stn.aeS, ca3Tents CFAIPAJENSCH: Yes. i tink those a r sox e factors that might are well-takeno I think there

in a proc-'eieding of -thi kind warrant furthe ctnsideration a licenses from the The Aonlicant wants to be .t is se(Jing -the privilege Atomic Energy CowJli2ssion and you th:.2e Federazml Gcvernmei-t gives is ey".WrcIinifg the right that evaluation ylNo the Stu-ff has mad'e an4 under certain co-nditiof envioX3ntal impatct that there is a severe adverse you 75 infer that they reccmmen"ded They stop there and we might 8 at all Tn seeking the license might not operate the plat , the Staff has said but. a closed that you have suggested here,, we willgiv G,:be •YI.--. er and 0 here cycle co-ling system may be feasible the Commi-ssi o give that oppoVtunitY? suggest t.at the exercise opportunity to the Applican"t to warrant, 3 If you do not want that of the operation of this plant. 4 so state it; the St-a.f can Condition x think you should may 5 they would m ake 0 They re.evalate -the recomlfendation an stop now. if you have such recommend that this plant or your inabilitc y Iobjection to the conelitiO or infeasibility pre f n it that 13 to be the to get cooling tower infomatio it in this many plants that are using ferred system0 from the for other steam for nuclear plants, but .countryL and not only , a tmeCs& ~ th a-3C Y o p B t a t thn ~ thef eal O

thith

i~~air ff A aic ~ 0 Wi rth sa condiat iont. does 1 5 d%scu GWf e~ t et ed.th ita t fomte 2. sg et h edase kil e 0170ff _ .hat,& lOL. 5,kO ut , 7 0' iu o~

ha a tn gok h ~&~At tesqet~~ CIP~~~~ENCH~ Tat tefqeY vejOcosdr r oelva ~ qu~tiO~ from y . C oo. * nil of plumes r .t i he3.~ e ....aathe arnalysis of the or a i -"the Appiant for 31 poposed yt by been hT-nla .. They are i nb1. to evauate s that 4 aglzeO? n.opjoSee Do yOU Mot have to agre it1 OfaJC'l I W12.2 PAIRO TMOSTEN Mr s t b.iter-tad e t j co:i in couldie to the extcn that 7 .you t.at of th P-Xei of what the frequency as eq-n an

C - I,',Orithe aienita hMidtY, o the 10 wind speed, or tile win& directi.oso *10 not seeking that rEat MR. TROSTEN- We are 12 order n s ag"eeaent that iII is Mr. Knighta ' What e a eSeein effects from a C0206 evaluate the p3.ue to Properly ...... -ald ."aft cooli'ng

5 cycle cooling alternative suICh as . .... at these thingSu yorbably hele t' loo tower that one vould ki ou - in ruestions Knightr will understand 17 and Z hope r

IB that respect-, on that Cim1RI~iY migl P it

basise. - you vexy xich, Mr. TROSTE, Thank r oloca l 20 jN ..C.. Of course 0,eteoon the data that you sed that some of that 3 -mattes6, we have 1960 for been Cllectin'Sfnce have indicateyeV fromt what you be 6o vastly different 5 indian Point I ouidnlt 976

2 that is about 200 feet away. mii wou fini for "Indian Pointt for lings you would have available 2 Perhaps Some of theO n 3 your read! eferenale and .o a detdta rqj4R. TRO-S,2I. We do have

5 valable d CH You. know -- the ambieCi

and the seed speed is, the direction caolingq to-Hes MR.~~~~~ T.~ takn,.TOTk"' ,:: Yu

' s from the Staff position if as is apparent S to00 feet high,, cnc' e cdoolin s rositiofn oed 0 FIM, the Xnte a'rO the, w uoul pefezred -'o. to be the 'fOld l g i c l it that.... mete o r o o a co 'know exactly the teorlogiC data we do not have the me ha-e to investihgate beaue there towers of ehat; height applicable to cooling collect those data rB ' never has been a need .to take data, it :ix going to In order to Collect those not only to to collect data applicable ti-me° if me are going e , closed alte . n a t i v but to other th.-t closed cyclc cooling take nmore -ime . i v e s , it 117il, of -course, 19 cyce coolinq ternat to be collected. because more data will heve tall its feel that the - how CHAiIWtA.N JESCH3 You ~for-you knock ;.t down out there now? B that stack you have you.are pxoPsin° somt as I unda stand am suire - I don It - MR TP.OSTEN 0 it is 150 feet. Y CMUIMM JENSCH AsSM.Ua 6977

o stud'. "o get the it Was 90' to-e a lot i of the Lt~

3 stack? ROo 'ROEN Th'iats I right.

MR. 53 C

=7

23

2.

20

22

24

25 6978

" ,53f.at in the CIA?1~A~XM~SC~: i IIth~ ome gort to balOCIA t eor have tiosphere are you going . 4 ati vastl1Y diflGrenht are al! going to be 3 of instrU~mntf thlat -e " foot? Ca you bve got w .tht to get the da~a than MR. TR0STEN : We would e:pyct to have a t.ower0

This 4 You do have a mfl

t wer, -don't you? at i a tow4er in operation HR. TLOETS - lrhre is .ae. 5 he preSent7 t that? hat 0isthe height of CHAIRMN JENSC f t TROSTM 110 7' Mir. adequate for JENSCiU That wculdf't be 8 CRa1R-4

t 300 feat. 14 MR. TROSTEN I a advsed4 t will not. be adequate

foot to.we r it is. for the 400 -- whatever size 6 natural d:aft CAJ A 'NS, Have you geleoted would be luc-h do you believe? That or mechanical draft,

1. draft would be much MR. TIROSTEN: Mscancal 20 be different data you need would lower and the neteorologcical to be effacts vould be expected because the envirOPIntal being much tallero you A natural draft to,,wer 23 different. point There is a basic at different data. wgould have to look the Mr- Chairnifn I think observed here5 I think ougoht to be 25 6979 I

31 6 hau3 ad Ss athe r julatQJVpre~ availalble n e ar need~r001.Vd. to2~ a ..... 4 there i art ~t

wsh:en . . ad bo].ts of this, and down to the actual nut th-ffeIe thIng5 ar:,e prese- ted' t! the .A...C. C ......

Reqfl ator y Staff fo/ rsevuiew and i -er cognaft fganciCs l to EE .. pe that there Will be It may answers tc Yet. E&Ven tj-ryzh that we don'Vt ham7P; tDe tapparent and ah~lv to us dcnonw tW,,,nnd seem thase-w things are r9'...YL,-!cango

,'a ~ have enough informaZOfl.0 and ca. go ahead3 dont think S Mr. Chairman it is gL.g t . o.k out, h that's the al-z

!. o ,U0j OC, of Sgetting data frcm, Indian ?oint theme has been coSi, and also In.dian Point 2, the ataa d foc that higlflr a4iltun. We are still st.cv1Eg to Iay cm forever I don't mean I suppose tha, will go buut. eoirmulcZs we car learn about it,, we sholdn't gat all strike a balance c evente you. have "to IMa the cours of human

and gat. so;methxg done. I am not MR,- , TOST2 I agreeC , Chatmam. Vie or ansyone In what i saide being ctitica! of anythng where D,. yesterdaY, for examp2e, a isaw from the discusion the results of Dr.' Lauer's Goodyear was asked about 6930

ar3 q uat lv2X' a b ou" i t e eri. ,.t.t.i anti he had w. . atout it s

There ar t %Isrt quent."ons. I dtdn t havta =u;gh datna to ths tig go. When. yoUu start n, You know, thiat's~ how Wi~ks to havy mdpor:T .1 yeart down to it and you knotw you' 5 infornzvtion about Maee "hingz

LuoeJ aph htt ,a CHAIRMENS.L1 JEjNvSCt.a. I h powe abot every .ha of nucl'ea 7 u mderttad it, '01 are otilII qe~ratonncudig xdilalcalnefty.

further questions, ZW.Coa. 90 Do ~you have some

sea rohiea.

S.ChL~L;tmD4 JENSC=a"tN arvmy more. do y.u kve?

NP.MRCOZE~N; Just a to Mao nenirpana t 20 4 ii .pct, and then I'd like to do ebo on baesft-ctrt analysis. a recests, 1 CHAIRI4N JEN!SCLOg We-; if we 'wok 1*00 o4'clOcJ4, is~ th~at crrbCta 47 we will finish by I blive- so. i8 1~ ~ 4NA. COiXEN3 let's recess to caARNAN JUNSCUs At ,hi.3tXIS

2econve in thio zoom at 12:I0.

23

* 24 '3981.

crder PaseuP J C col ,.tA~i~hezad.Aptai~ ThewinewShave 3 are you ready to; pwocd~ counlsel, i4Ro GOHEN Yc , Mflr Cha'ir.!mn i PnrOceed; please,

to de e .. ne the 2O- CQHEN ~GentlerQen, in r'.iC2

tfcnn a na.tial dr-aft cooling ctuaal effect 0s salt deposition e itt-is the tolenace

3 3-1 level of Plant if-e to 01ie it i0 10 WIrIT903S CI-MRtR, Yes. in ,the arel aware 0o.F any studies z,. COX,--V Are you plant life to thiz tolerance level of of Indian Point 2 on

salt? CARTER: blot c.no. 17 WITNESS in the aware of any studiez I VR. COHSN Are you leve IOf to derz.1-ne th 15 area of Indian Point 2 a natural aiight be exposed to via salt to which plant life system? draft the Appli WI-,ES CARZER Only that which 19 2Tj ts/bcnefit analysis. ao •Dec ored in I.-ts c 5 you awarle of ' i MR. CQIEN. Do you knov or are 21 wich is the mo in t1e area of west'cnester 22 plant life found salt sensitiVr? 23 to WIRNESS CARTER3 No, lot

soe of these 25A CHAt RAAN JN5C2! :Can.we eiifinEte 6932

studies They. hv ±" 2i qqsi" by they mwde no p tc .u.mi...dre.e-- So ely at ,.' yosc sth fll V _Le iS have you ds , T .,'- is .. cn.estis, it only to the e:tent consi.ered it ,heykhay considered don t we go One and we "You --a-e aub-itted ite, Can ° or wihtr v e r the plant liJf IPave to go through the dankdclions

is there and Eo ....oyth?

2.stipulate 4Co ~ iER, ROS~h~f ir0 i~z'mflwi Mr Chairo"U that, it is a'. right with na i:O t-t Ir DiR A 147ambW can stipvvlate

14et;s gio. A CE~hJd N IYSC~i to the --,BE t w:!oul.d% like to tu n now withllIn the balancinlg which -was donae ij5 -J'Et/tcoat analysis and - e t'be AreAra.you tos . the beneftr,1v'ost al .. y to be cross.....ifled COhC..zi..... 27 vitnesses wh-o are prepar2O benefits economic and envirofle-Altal the r .1balfaaC-if(''eq-uired of StaffOs reco~mmefe.l " vNfSUch in the Reglasto.y I9 and costs re-ultjl-e'd systeJe at of closed cycle coolll' 2-0 "-:? for the ivot;jtcn 'Endian Poln. 2

WITNESS CNIRITOE : Yes.

this asad upon the discussion 24 MR0 COHEN closed for implementing the rni Il econoaic costs 25 moning C,-ce 6983

that a 3il cycle cooling sys.ea if .t was dete.x.,.,.a cost should prop'e91.. ""- cr -2 i~:ts suc±h .a-an outage 3 in . h ~. i g ti o' ,S, a...... if in fact in the toaqr.oe ,ehigreratirnc I:S, werej~ A -it4,erAL tcben omiZicted, WOu.L yv ~m .1iit hadbe , o consider it - neco ssaryv to- mndi.~ thV01:b4aC~cwih

performed reuisite for tbL recO7GuZnatclno

I am, not quite cein e YIR ltAR-4hll\N: ir 0 Witness0 'hh.the f hathe question vas niderstod ar to the baiancig 0 -determination wm.-.ld be di-Zerent or whther

91 night be different question M0 TaR STEN Would the reporter read the

back? Would you like ha?

pending ue-tion.) .(Thereortex- read th.e it WITNESS CIRTERs Jerhaps I didn't understand

mean would it affect our -. 17 completely, : took it to :aot b enough to affect final conclusion, and the cost ould

9 Our final onclusion

Thank you. 20 MR. COHENE were Woldn22 1t you agree howeve& , that if it

an element of economic cost had 22 brought to your attention. that. that you should consider 23 been ,omitted from your consideration,

24 it when it was brought to your attention?

WITNESS CARTER: Certainly.

I .n t possible

equation for the balance -o.4 dge that. the underlying I Jonge SI TNESS C.ARR: le reallhad

That on equation to peror2, the b'AIDC heeyoll are~ a~ae, tO-Z C[1MmCI2f4 S j enft/O~ naLy.~ i a OU 6 both sides9 the be ef its if they are grKeater ratio o-f the benefits to the costs and ou t u. costs0 When You S .a.n One, tChen tohe benr:itS e n i vo " of envio n m ta. ccMS 9 are sp&-aing in t er i- qu"antify all %if -tCe e

- , if the.. if an alemei S Mitt C'aEN: Well then ... an element which had been were coido-e, 1• of economic cast t -it e con siderd by you, .. on isn' had been oritted wer of basis that you had batXio whatever ty-po is possible that the be changed? for the inal' balance .,ould wqith th!at 0 I'd have to agree 7.WIT1ESS cAMBR-,, Yes, night t you agree that there ME'-o.. COH Then woouldn h w o u l d " -ni,,.°g h t b '.e , w h i c . ., ... .C. . ol ta ngt~w~~ cost, wbateVEZt -9~besome? econopmic e final balanpi ? 2G you to change the he atzvered -that. MR. KAT"IAAN I thought it. SMR.1fOSTSNkA I didn't hear understand theif therepremise ClAIRM4AN JENSCE%vr if thereI didn't -- something 2. of.the qt~sin o of ihat lead to i change eco nomic cost, would 5 t e ZZb

1~i 6935

:ray there i~ 0 baiax~c~e?Is.ve you es the premfise 'f can YOU . st to be cond sd nO *1! other econOmlc Ot as being idetify it? I thnk he smissed 21 g .....i - . ythixq e]csO you have in mind?

7 I I

I

a' 23 I 0 I 0- .. .. 6 9 6

askin Chr ahii~lc we were simpl Iga TROSTMI ve w-itAness whether there would not, indee&s be sOV

t .hich could Change O.Cost , 1 h ould r: er sing hi., 0ooi A' 'ha, drcawn. ]e 3 " E h I& that the a 4 ia balaac=- te u er the m.thod a Poinlt whcre)y -h that you wouId ceach conclusion was su1 Cycle coL. ng coot of the CjoI,Gd ith.,e conomiwc the final balafOCe 7 where it would mT.odify t:yorld reach the point

tha th Stafi 'the final Conclusion tha the Sta9f had atern&CiVC 'jhad drawn which a s tat a closed cycle cooii

alat Indian ?oiwT; 2. should be installed CIAIshould ~iaI Iixadestood him to say that they had no ma-themyazCa. equation becauWe you ca-a t C1ae-ntifY i1e

:I q-taiatic.. and so if you donct have envioamental csts, = vo.dy ul be, I Ink what the economiac .r4rMenZta!l Coots, To that you have :in mind req ires some ideyoifuCation

indef...... cost seems soMewhat that might be an economic sOreth not speuvlating abayft T-RROSTENz No, it is the costs of I was talking about - th't might come along. 1.AmpLY ask' ng him 20 altenafl& e.IVe i -a closed 01cle cooling by the S-tuaff was 5suci that 21 hether the MmethOdOl0y empjayed the closed cycle cooling9 economic cost of -there could be am that it would be su fic'cently qg-eet alt.terli that would 0 11\ cyole a closed its conclusion that a lsd yl 251cafuse the staff to mdify at . Point 2 7 *eeak2 g ~ shoudii be insta:lle L.I ink tha is

helv. o yxo 3e-tad . questi.orn?

4

~1

101

13

14 15

16

17

198 9

20

21

*22

23

* 24

25

I I 6988

Ac e Charm~~~n Cnlioned- w did nOt use a

HOw Mne pObWbility tcal equation in our balance. mathet of is that that coiid ownc3Ve with what yo a:e -. g 3 ooiW could be oo great the cost of "h, altorra t an the tocato forgt i that ,t would be cheapor for b duild 'l Pa,n 2 &nd gn to soe other 3locatioa

12i plant.

of that SPOCific MRo TROSTEN I Rasdt" thinking

5 Dst. (Laughter o) 6I0 is that tha %was tihinking of the alternative 12V, 1 the closed-cyclie alterniative was coflonlmc cost of building -t1 Staffs judgmtent it wTauld 6 uffjiciantly great that in by the StafU envi,Mont3ntal cost postulated 15 verride the onca-through cooling Sys:temo ,. Operation OL the present (3 cost? Could there be such an conomic do nlOt f5el that WIINES, CASR: NO, sir° 1 1824 haa impact that Oux b;ojog5I: t.here could be. With the aquatic biota and.on the fishery, told us he e -ects on the 2O not only to .our generation, We feel that that is priceless, a price come; aad we calnnot put but to future geneatIOAS to tag on it. was your conclusion 24 I MR. TROSEN , Mr. Cartar, a3 by your biolost and only based upon the iMpact postulated 6989 ar

s r.)an. .C! 'Eh W 'e l

m yi'n 2 mav t h e a -C AM : :R .... ~ - e z dsS!Yes° o- w h e 9WI 6~O 1'r - ,i SS C:ART

' "' ' W.hate .,er it Is" that - 0 t,vI.j -'A-11OSTEN:

z -Yen. W 1TNESS CART

are® e- .... . yo u T.S So I Oth 1 4-imcs l pac." Is that your bio.ogilt pi-ulat tht uq eay.ng you ar-e now tel.UK*: rue an.d accepting -thatconclusion, • -,-, 'O Q"- c~t f, -- you to c ocast ohich viould caur.:Z camt .&1.aeA-mag ioa cooling cost of the osed-C Ci utmt modify17 18 -- an. economic --vy you to modifY., surutmt aIternative iwhich would case altarzn-tive should a c!16sed-cy.-le coo!i ma 20 ! canclusion, that

nt 2? be in.stalled at Indian Poi s correct.o . WITNESS CIARTER: That' Perhaps hsvcl TROSTEN : All right.0 P- MR. ubj c t . ° t~me to r.W'v to a r-iat&'=-d. 24 b. .pproprteb

25 a6 0990

,i pin fQZh&% yor ;e..... av3 Mr Carter Coa. ton the anays CA'did you bari.mce-tthe that V ba-'sYs of your best estiate of the ctstiZl damage Xndlaa Point 2 presev ' cosJ {g 4 could be caus-d by the damaagt. that cou "ld b( systte2 as oppos d to the@ possiblea r ad my'z°kquastV on? 6 tj hypothesl Zed? Woul.d the reporter s it 's clear az.-d that the witne 7 I want to be c.rtaifl that

- question.) (The repot'r re d the pending What oadh'hs 10CHAIMAN JZW-S CI ,n? damAge that you had in m

22£L TROiZEN- The wrt - ? ?e110 an sutami.& of, Mr, Chairmna, was of this, the beeat one I can thitf

conslact± on tt? istimat prov17S'ded by Dr. G*Odye.ar ia d il f '--tphytcplar/ltof 'that a 17 p rcenz t raprodactive occur by Indlam. Po.,mt would 1 in the segment represted l In the 'pla'at wre killed. 17 all phytoplaflkton ent xa rhed sa id that he, UpOXI. questiO %ifgs Dr Go= oyear 29* knew that this woald not occur that there was no evidence

he was Simply giving am. to d i!cete that It would, but is an example of the sort of oautside worst estimate. Thes

thing r am thinking about. e23 P3

P-41 6991 24 eak 1 c:BA:JiiSCH; That is i~zM"e etimate 0 potential d.amage tha,-t YOU have in% wind?& __~e't a of izc dta&age M.n TROIN The estimate of cial .that I hae in 2.ind .1s the best ei. hat'drawm CEe eVidence avai able. on, the beBt basis ot the scientific in the judmMnt'' or the The best evidwence - in this Case, tes a1 the evidece Staff, in other words, the Staff zevie, , rom that is available to it ff:om its indepedt and forms its b'est the Applio t's evidence; and so forth haoppn. 10 estimate oZ what will CHAMIA-N JENSC: Thank you. CaI t.he witness answer that? "s~at WIT7NESS rG2131MON: I think the answer to, 13 1. believe I don't have theerrata .heets but. 14 imay be in the Yes. Page 11-74 w-here it states 15 -e. chwged a sentence. pa and I think we changed -he 16 Seo coolirlg OThe StaffIs analysis of the =esent 17 ztatee~ent ezstuarine the Hudson River shows that the complex I8 :system on be would be severely impacted zxd could 19 -.n~ironment xreversibly daaeia o.edo 20 you are I think that gives both the cond1:ktions- 21 aiking about, o I als' not -MRo OSTWN Perhaps so 1X:ChtfN "ig 23 to ma h,m that Clear how it does. Could you explain 24 qite the Stafk sentea.ce answers my quireston, whether 25 in making its balwwe considered in drawing its cor clusions, 6992

am,!ze ;ia to the Staff of tie qalk 2 the best est 4'.ate

mligbt be. caused by. a-ntrainment ' it this way, the dayeg that

hypthssidd~iage that col oCCUr. b pthe siml mee gi.e 'u ao"~ ele. Yctcn

that is going to be kil3.ed for ePl- tihat eveyoramismT the p"an't. -is oiCi,1z to Iba i oxgazq~aism that go~es thmng is~ doesn'.t j 7st i 'y zuch a lmOpthe~s ki1.d tzidece,ev. 5 one~ could hypothesi3s that. a:lso hypoi;hosie1 that walLMS MGYTION. Ono- coald peciant'' of Vhe-m arekild f' i1Z is killed,, one hmdrod ,which orit the nurserCy as a worse case it could conceivaly wipe you zI-e asking for. you wold be gin m'R. 'TROSTBAI. V~11- I 's1apposc on credibl.e and so forth end so. to get invto the subject of Ithink you know vihat mean. 17 whic-h I donut viant to do. asked foz, thm worse WITNSS '1@JIGHTON: "Kell, you ca-n think of. case and Unat is the forse "E t. in terms of -~I don HIR. TROSTM- Well,' I mean -- did you credible, you - did you 21 %yant to t-se~ the uord of -the danvrt up with your best erMAmate. use your cud you Come wuld of evironmeft"1 cost th~at ji &draingup your eatimate 2.C against the ecmonmi~C cost occur in crdex to balance this orbse:taC I hs that would occur? Isthi is It what is goin1,1g to happen or the taffs best esti~flate of 6993

bad ~ o caseoS a cii:sO ji ~nthiglse I itanoutside in .uk'w what Ss Ovap et12nwintiu c rei.l, 3 us JNS0 T 'it: he dossS~ 0 u2' YOU to"l 3 jCiAP32Yw v an ISC te

dqu!i n M0"-rwhat yoU u d rsa Whm-IV~ a situvat..OM I tfhink yozu couldCtake r., Ty0S.,orzN of bhat ynnu and you coiP.d mae an ecsti.mate 8 damge is ~ikea to b~Re anal then yoU. cAuLd there.. .C...... tY is a certain -.mount of uncertai-,. 9 eitabW there that is -, he you Cm take a case .04t-h tha~t eCitiIaV T- that you car iagi.nemt, i the wose sort of case- o, i -ton Som to . 1 ard. am just trying is no,-alApa:anlt :3inAonifg CMi.. u-p with t",-

looking at the :xal 4iCametrlS1n 4 Chai.KCtr L f rom .,,X f t his r~ealliV Eea. atl hot" the Staf dia S in 5 S.-. =.,~ we stethtteLd to-whFCat and W-. S Sse d 5-I, for exempleo II, %10011-,, AppendiX

. the going. he"tdoidnhpt

;Ae~aa ",o say that athese effects that ediscus.sed i'i hngs.e 20 at: Tn LA;a:,R -"bi'" .2. -.A -, hat a~c gointg to h~appl-m S .t.,. . 0 sin T thingsta 22 ,=h~.aTe S:lapl aJ'godd-s

o-served at ohex" 23 righ~1 happen and effa t. that have been

4 poieC plet, and so forth. It is just never very .,apparent of th2xe estietyS tha rll Y id here which 25 Wh&C the st 6994

whac Ce5 prese.o -t they t or . 2i i:hey did

3 •heca e your ati:' t q. l. S.C!tt

that it fO-ot a :eaci.g o t t wOUpd Se6e ato e 1 7 .- . ti aalysis that here ou2.d .. aee

S I e d !ageo irn ~cac:-d could be an C 81 -hatobabiy Wi tis is the - -the estirlte is

cou hapenn in the 13w i1i happen 9. wh.at ny 'ery ei~o~1, the ocx3 ooling system 6 Itong *m with YOu~ Vss':r8o tht'a all MR. ST:~ Dr. lkii-oedid th e zo pI to2 " .9 Stiao sory i apologie.Sht=ighto ,

a-re of the zcOPIa-nkt-n that you assume that 100 percent 1e killed by the ?oit 2 pl~t wO121d entraiLned in the indian

-byenrain.ment? assxmec anything. Wididhn'tG ' .On for us, Mr. rooYar did our eva U 2,

:\ 6995

yoi peyrfo~vrwedi he be.1anaing, so you01 Simril MtR TROGTEN,. Y~uthavfe harll sometha-ng i~ in

WITNE-SS KN'IGHTON: That s zright i not mae

.!ajudigment of the sgn.ic. I balaned it against the :.Cost.

MR, ZE .5.:..O'Tat-hat Dr. Gooudy e ar did., 'as0e

biologist, was to present ;O yoia inot tion whiah you ' exi

cons de2.ed J.n perioaing a j.udg ent, 10n other v.y , -- er

i .s a judgment a balanc-ing t hat is Called for unde:

NEP.A and you ryyere the person who xwas responsible for this 'judgiient o

Now Would you tell me i-a.ir . t'n this judgprent;

did you assune, did you consider Vhat 00 pe.-nt of the , zooplankton iTere going to be k.le.

WITNESS NNIGHTON As I poilnted. out, I did 'not

m ake that asswqptiono, Dr. Goodyear made the asstption.

MR. TROSTE24 I am not asking you whether you

were the person that made the deterrination that thbey would the or would not be .,lledo I awx simply asking you what was

. factor that you considered in making the judgment?

WITNESS KNIGHTON: Just a rainute.

(witnesses donferring.)

WITNESS CARTER1 I thi&. the answer to your

* question on zooplankton is on page 1140.

MR. TROSTRN: Let's take a look at that. 69 9

ate WOld. yoU ai7e m-y a. .. to the .po, . ~ii~i I place that answers this questioin?

begToTHB3S CARTERg Ba in th e -k if th lie dotn

the a 5 repeated earlier. "The Staff has est:Lomated

s '"t from ye)iy.a 6 I Fossible C o.enc w i.ch would re .. r ounct-ivity s t reduction of 17 percent" 'o $ the that Indin PoLnt. Simi.arly the Staff's i..nalysess of s ni" "c .dac9 occurs to zooplankton f rm effects pliue chloration, entrainment, and exposture to the the:iaai

MR. TROSTEN All right° Leht stop Uhere Are

you finished, M.'- Carter?

3 WITNESS CARTER: Yes.

wi, you MR. TROSTENg Let's atop tiere. I glad :Cs it re-inded me of that sentence about phyi~cpanktOn

correct that the Staff, in 6awin.g up the benef tcost produc balance, assumed that 17 percent of the phytoplankton

3 tivit would be eliminated as the resi.At of entrainment?

4 , -YWTNESS KNIGHTON: Yes. evidence that justifies 5 MR. TROSTEN: There iB

that that -,yould happen?

CiHAi..N JENSCH:- Isn't that up to the biologist

to give that dotermination? Dr. Goodyeaz MR. TROSTEN: Do you agree with m that

would occur? testified that he did not believe that. this 699'7

CI{IRALVJiScli? '0e~ is it irv the tranisca~iptC 0 3mi I that it sayso that-?

l. ROT i & s r.-y 1 do', t have the .'-ook foz: it and de-termine transript•r'vawp ywi1 men'- oe "eil,, I ~~ havea -too. tai eri~

7 the subject at a la-per tr

M.R NARiAK: I am rot sixra of tha n~~c

7 o f this. Maybe the t,-itnesses can .h .I- me I t indiates tI -e in that same p ag ,?aph 11-40, it ';cys that based on

9 this infovinationg the Ap.icaat '" timates tn

0 coals of phy'oplakton wl resnlt fro. aItrn-ativ(e one.

M. ' TROSTMM.- Yes. I see it

MR, ARMM: Staff feels a shifting in apecies may and 18 be 91gnificant and only fro2r actual oaeating experience

4 study can this be detevained.

MR TR OSTEM Thank you Mr Xarman

Let s look -t the zooplanktono Can you tell m~e of zcoplankton the 171 whether this indicates what percentage Indian Staff considered wo-ld be killed by entrainment in

19 Point 2? In performig tve bene fit/cost balance?

20 •.,? -S,. 1 CARTER: As you see, we assigned 25 environY-metal cost to it as po.tential significant damage.

VMIR TROSTEN- Yes.

23 WITNESS CARTER. That does not say that 17 percent or 50 percent ot 100 percent will occur. It means there is 24

4 potential there 1oz significant damage. MI.TROSTEN3 Yes, but does~ thatk- indicate that you 'Kllled? feel that 100 pecent: ofE iihe zooplan.16.Ox woul1d be

3WITN"SS CARTER- You are wa. ing i,.e fo miy opinion'?

M.TROSTEN- No. Ew-juse me, 1,1r. Cartrer. Rl1 I wha,-t you 5 aiz askinrg for you and i r. Micgnton to ruelise you -- fc.r the 6 Considered. I, Ca Anst-alug yoi-A for Iwhet'her I~ 7 concusonC) -that you drew' about the b."iological effetf;. * T wn s~imply 8 realize Dr, Goodyear -Jo the biologica). Gxpart. thei benfit/cost 9 asking you who are -,-oponsible for drawinng Up

10 balance -what Ectors you considered. that iiWrITN1VS Pt1MIGHTON: We consideed the factoxs

Iaare on Pages 11-28, 11-31.1 *3 MR.~ TROSTW Yes. in WTNESS KNIGHTUN The tabulat',on of costs, both or the wa onstary values and judgmen~ts and thic is the balance were use'd to balance of f 16 evaluation a. these impacts which

17 thdaae MR. TROSTEV: Did you say ll1-28? starts out 11-26. 19. WITNESS KNIGH{TON': INell, it

In making -- in 20 M.TR0SIVEV: in other words, that the plant had a 21 dawin tp yomr balance, vou considere'd and consumers, that is 22 daag otential to primary producers and that is all, just 23 tol phytoplantof and %coplankton,

24 the damage potential? Yes 25~ ~ WKMS NIGH1NN 6999 26 MaRl TSTEN in dradi -L up YUX'.C c:nCjLuSiSO ee. that it -- let's see, .nW Lets as to the af f act In drawing up your co:-ciXulon

intake atruCture and -the condamser 4 of the water body of the Lghad that th.i, plant headth a -- 1ad coolifq system,largei you moICadcd tat r.ght2 S larg -that thlexe would be Jarge

e t a l costs? 7 Large W v~x&=,s 7WITNESS MNIGHTONz On -the :Z;Leies, it. i. any way, SMR. TIROSTEi : Without qu atl .yiag

10 Is that right? WITNESS KN.IGHTON: Yeg. re -c M TROSTEN: So that thexagore if one that the you that would in-dicate 1.3 present evidence to 14. :suz large, talat you would 4 dauage potntial waB small v Changed, is tat would have to be Consider that the balance

16 correct? correct. WITNESS (N(.GHTON1 That's 17 JENSCH. V61 18~R? for, Mr. . That's what we are here , 9o XAP-;01- 70 Chairman.o wonae-- If I underndo Just SCHAMi.4m jmiSCu: Y. 21 going to change it. You to ._epsre it to you, you are not

to evaluate it? 23 are going Yes. i4WITNESS KNIGHTON: to f nd out if 25 1 CHAU-XAN JENSCH, You would have ?000

sonsbody said large, sm~allr~~a you i

11i he hae a background for his ,:ztit-ate?

3 --e11TESS KIGHTOQN: That '. co=Qct 04CHAI.%iQV JENSCH.- Thank you.

MR. T-OT~ Stpps sh r-vdonce that was-T

6 prentad to you in this hearing, Mr. Ynighton 4emmtrated

7that -the-Indi~m PCA-t Units w-4,1 )prob;ab-y, C~m~ebtnill

8 less tha *the 30 to 50 prcent rdction in the rr'rxkyd

9 bass larvas which m-n-rate past Xv-dian Point ri utra

spawnming w.-eas in June and July of sach year. -Nw w,.ould

this cause you to feel thali; the balace ought -to bd changed? JAR.rxRMZLT I don' thiak Mr. KnIghtion -LL position to discuss what the rnvdncs of this hearing will

6 showY. TChe Board has to malsme that, dratemimation as to

whehexor not the avidence is zufficlet 4, I am not sture

Mr. Knighto would ba in a position alst down-1 and re

eraluate all of -ehs evidence that is going to be that has

been adduced and will be adaced. I donm t thid thatlo

a f air qtvasti'On to bae put to Kim.

MR. TROSTEW I don't think it's an unfair

ai question, Mr. Kaun~ i After. all, thea Fisial Environmnental

Statement is the Staff' s testimony In this proceaedivg. One

P-3 of the very, very -- and in Chapter 11 , there is a sumiary of benefitia and costs and that's vyhy we are here.

a5it-is -- it is necessary -that we urndrstand. and that we eiitlo what it was that led the Staff to draw 7001 ar3

' the oonncls.itox at it did

m R0 KAit2AN: Ye u, but your qsteation , p redicated

3 u2K)On the absolute belief that the evidence that'8 going

4 to be presented will be accepted by '-@ roth rr pari.&t(s as 5 viable evidence rather than contosted. 6 A;LMR.TROSTEN: No. N 0 I . not puttig forth

7 that premise at all, Mr. Narrman. 1.That I st saying is I

am trying to fInd out whither the Stf .a ha some Pre

9 Conception of the ".:,ay tk s balance ought to be dawn that

0 somehow becane injected into thce balance that was drawn.

I That's what I a tzyiag to find out.

In Order -- I carat" 13!!MR. X(AU3MAN A r

14, MR. TROSTEN: yes' a preconceptioa in ta sense

of an attltude about the %ttaythe balance ought to be drawr.n

an attitude about the way you baelance arvironmental costs

the sort of pre 17 and economic costs, Mr. Kazian,, That's U8 conception I was talking about.

0 really ii 2titnk that you can t really -- you can't this thing. Thatl what 20 find that out unless we explore 22 21V'd like to ask tese questions.

2, CHAIRMAN JENSCH: Haven't you overlooked the

23 fact that this Final Envitronmental mL%)act Statement is a Staff product?

Pas MR. TROSTEN: Yee, Mr., Chairman. a, .4.7002

texp0rte.CEAXRN .....m whe F.,ae hoere e 2 thsi h haso- ac r! h -au it, atii r;..by t..e

othe Staff havi-ni to do w t -a bi -. o

4 aglatic d-iPasr sow youz- clu s:- ton v-as if thae avilncs

,dewostrated noo wou d infer be bythan

-m5d. by the Staf expanertha in that field ; and L tharea-e Othern qu-flificatikzas -'r;Q t3 o denccrs-ez," n Would' of

ouiroe , be.Iteswie Dre -jardyeevad im that reard,.ofyou

So you wee a otxs.ct ig

you Ovldxrancehoe that to your :ii o stvit::

a iertain factor -ould he automaticaly chaq og? I Ta it he woald take it up and have a Staff cStafreatidon

13 'in.~TROSTEI:. No, I was aeIkzthg If the evidence

34 dmnstratd jtto. these pe. s ws the hcae chaisrarne 9 -NflMrI Jrw-fZV(" L Bu,,~ 11 sehei-nowan

26 those citr w~a and Ithink ---- 7 Inferred in the

nterrogation of Witne ss Ghodyear ysterday that theapproavh w,as 5 oa1,4ll, znow, Dr. ~~er you kn=;wn You ara snrt of A

ouzn; fellow~l here anUd you are not going to. ha tolling Con

theyo have got to build a p 0ylant" md wpehat I 20 Edison *that

23think that really what,, he was trying to say to you is that

22 t-hisis a coonsidtertion by the Staff, and I don't mean, to fsay JUs3t these persons w,-ho are here on this pa,

24but each of these viroductU-s that comes from the Staff involves and 25 the conctderation and determination of mtanly, matty people,~ ar S of the &tnaa of OvideW2ce that ijt jim0 t solely a cquetQX wooAd be LA ;R-OCeedW W t whtt WoUld be pu~t on hern it would havv -- he Wolui done-in the balacing situation. made& sh~testimony, d.aterminations await, ag I andeanA n in theseh di %ere ils by the eacnerts on ths Staff 11 heelAatOi could then bette when they Made themr "i changes should bet kfada. decide wha the balancing

21

M

2oo IS.l 22

20I

AES

22 70041 27

ak P.a - .r a e - heiI at "r

he qu , . ... r 'J.-'.ra t 4 - f tateviden ceto 5 y Co w i ' i o t h e P-. :n~ e ' a '7,o G~~~ ._et ....p.-as [t ~ ~ ici ~ Unit wij-iY ~tA Point tfthe. ths S st eccent .CC cJj thr ess. than the 30 t 50 NrOr P oi nt " " ' .ast . ' d a 9 ar v ae w h, j ch thi8 came - July o aCLn yea, ,ou:l 10 areas in un :ba1a .Oe I Yo to c'hsnge yO .... ,o beli eve it v~onl2

-k S Th,, you o 13 is a0y guideto 15 i that m'ay "Ve a f TR0S.33N* i have 16 MR 17 more Minutes oCaz

-" NoW' s.posigD.0 the evCdenCC onstrated to the biologicai 21 s p~oSlg th2e e e de~st-ated

Yegmis et aval-abe to the A i pneL6gy x Panxonit Units could oa o the Indi a 23 staff .that the than the two to less impingment c,.ss t 2A to al o t 5 ive muilio'l fish aw.. s han~e .Yu b&ance iI 7005 bro den this oncO C2H ~A3RD L~ BUSCH: CF.a you

impien'A-t p and for all to include are any c'anes 3 blowdoafl., Delta T chanOeS f thfere wouad they Come to a tifferet 4 in the faotOTS nide$e can so W CaP cat it as broad as you s consideration? &I'e 6 oe this. to the ,;,R. OST-N 11eentif Uathe evTRSCT'i. e cts the ... -- bioogit Staff caused " ""e 8 t.gulatoXy to c '"th available to the Staff 9 a l l y less Wit plant would be svestani 10 in pac1 of the advehase eCtthat faoto:CS responsible for 1 .es.mect to those not in paragraph A, -cud this are listei. on pagse 7-1 id the that you have dxrvm ca-ase yo'to alter the balance in the Final Eivironmefli.a that you have drarm' 1.ul-tlate conc lusion

15 WITNESS lGTON. 01-21y if he evaluated that I" meaxn with otherssuch. as 7 articua p.-pblem hitself total ipact. If he satisEied he would evallkat, the it. less, then -e woul d consider that it would be sufficlently these it true that if anyone of MR. TROSTE- Isn't or associated things, if nyone of thesefactos responsible for

4With excuse meo anyone ofthese factors is n't it true thlt if adverse are capable of producing which You. indicate experts and it were by your biologist effectS were evalumated less than the effects were substan.tially to be concluded that 7006

Statem entth L Z . ,C .... ,- *2 I rdo the ultlma.e conclusion lihis would caase You -o - t State ? the Hiual Envi o theat you havire &-an it

it .t-OlbtCf el 3 o 5 ulimate- concr4~. .C'I4wa balancisig?

he x#0t,1-d rec~S d MR.i TPISTn . whether

7 the ultiyuats conc:~cs"-no these if theY are -- each of lFITOS 'tm i-rmm, Only or i i E" Oea m ighe! he re h app en 40 lbe. 9 are a:, aam'...... n n epstto .e h -0 an other l as an Kple, valuc . .I I the heaviest 'weighed MR. Trw~3zii x stertnl N Xf irey reduced imupingement 3 WITNESS KMIGMOI was a de:v:lllte - I-a he fet there olreuc . a irna i- the balance. But it would be considered 15 .'.edutionyes from the balaxace Unlikely I -ould thixfi I G it is e -rer .lY chae the ulti-mate conclusion° 17 here that it wou'd wor&' -you are tcilimg MR,, ,ROISMN In othe-. the preoblem entrainment problbem is '19 me that really the that correct? concern to the Staff, is 3 :ha'tT.as really of

2' %IRNESS KNIGRTON: ? iuarilyo a.-Cily 22 WISS yes. Weight.' -wiseo 23TYfSS KIUTON-.

24 7007

v!R TROSTEB'k Thank~ you"Dr niho on page 11-26,~ iir nighton, 1CUrning to Table 11-.2 3. youir estimate - do yoXX turn!ing to Section 2.1 and 2 2, is

see them there3 Mr' K(nighton .?

WITNSS INIGHTON: Yes. clost3d qycle MAR. -1 OS - is your estiate for the damag, po lI. t pi~r 7 cooling towers of 2.5 percent of f£rom the once thr,.)Lgh producers and con rnemrs resulting relationshi.p of' the coolin cooling system a Simple pr~oprtio,%,a1

watoc requirem'enis that. It is g WITNESS CARTER:0 I think; I car. aiwer text. but we qualified it back in the

MR. TROSTE~g Veliat page, p~ae All cloSed cyczi.: WiTHESS C&RTER: Page 11-42,, expesd as an-advantage 0 alterflativecs, environental costs

of the open cycle alternatives. that Then in -the lapst sentencet paragraph

be a reduction in env.-ronmeftal follow81, PThe neth effect will computed for 2.1 costs wihwl apoximate the percsi~tagas

you the rat1ios of Uie withndrawal 5 and above,," which gives rates. order of 2.5 percent? MR. TROSTEN: SO it is on the knowsp there are WITN~ESS CARTER. Yes 0 AS Applicant of imnpingemenlt. too many uncertainties as to the costs

MR . TROSTEN~: Or entrair.Lel~!t? 700 I . i WITNESS CAkRTER- Or ent.ai 2rmi am app~Oxim.tG value. is it not true t-at; YlRo TROSTEN: Mr. INnighto., yle cooling c nte:¢ing tilecIosed -A 1n toi C organi'sms

system probeo 2 will be killed? 6 KTNE!SS KNIGHTONL, Very likely.

T MR. TROSTENt Thank yon activi!y wilI be since p ntht lc C Now . of the yea"r a"d t stimulated d....n.

in'hibited MR. KA RNMAq Fir. Cha-lrman., vhere are -ye going?

unti. Ifish y uestio! 211R.iTROSTEN: if you wait ha...a -FEi scH_ I -think t'r Pa -that he says,

no'a See -,herze you are going,.

(Laughter.o)

CHAIR-tUm JE HC • Go ahead° th year,activit v "r. will MR. TROSTEN thre-uares Since pho-tosynhetico' u e s c the year and partially be stimulated duwing three u a r t e r 01 the year, as D Goodyea ..inhibited durin on oneCq into this have to be taken agreed on the stand, does-n't 21 cycle system and the impact or a closed accotut in comparing phyotplafkton? an open wcle system on into kind of effect, taken 2321; CHAeeAIt JENCH What

214 effect? rhat conclusion? I am makings mro Chfairman MR TROSTEN: The point probably a)l phyto Mr. Inighton has agreed that R is t.i . in1 klled that are taken into the 20 nlank-ton6 For etanrl" -,in.-Ie those Closed cycle systcctn So t'at mezans t-lcmt. All0 -:c . 1 y..e,.. organismrs w.ill be elliminated Lion the b.oci±C.2 open cycle syst74v theri On the other hand. with respect to the activity -hion is actually a stimulaYion of rhotosynthetic SII will-, on phyto is a measure of beneficial effect, if you it will be ihited plankton during most of the year and of the yecar. Pa-tially inhibited during only one,-a-ter There is an i So these organims aren't al killed .. phytip...LZ .t

I 7010

close, going to be killed that co -e the *3rnil I ogni s.-,s are to be ki lled .1... cycle systeam and they aV-xe not all qoil.g cl sysM1o -% oing a MOo 4 go into the open

pod2cijion wii1l be st i mu').ated comle;x effect on this Their . inhibited &ur-ing.. ath duving part of the year and

n or e T S Oflheat a disc aeg wipn Mpe 7 aauing that he has to CHAIR-'Z JNISCH: Are you 8

thaa -whether there's an adve.se make a determination other Ovironm5e2t? 19 effect wpon thle eisting T~O~T~& #61~Ing todo s t. M.R TRSTE U6 that ra..-

cycle alter tiv e 22 "etemine how he balanced the Clozed he savr that the 51a~mazja the open cycle alte n tve when 23 iam on p&ge 2 tial to phytoplankton is there. 2.1t and then looking on page 11-26 under Section he salv draft cloed cycle . y, 1 %Tithrespect to the natu-al I am of ater-nativre oze° nat 7 the damage is 25 percent t hat proportional elatlo5hip 18 asking hirm about is how he drew the question, My 19 JtMNSCM: You undestand 4 CHAX RIV/W 20 11itness?

(tnesses conferrin1g.o 213 Oesttnanr could assist. MR. TROSTEN: Perhaps Dr. they can as], MR. FARMA: If they need Dr. Oestnann,0 25 11for her. 7011

STpOSTEN. T beg your pc in 5rai I . shca Id be WITNESS CARTER{ To really answe it

3 one of cut biologisto. ftr" 4 MCBETH: I move .... cObjec.t to ar):y MR, of witnesss on the Statement of opinion from either/these qualified t -that- they have admitted themy are 7jot 5 gromndz

answer the question° i Di% Goodyear 8 iR. TROSTEN Should ',Te wait I have nio objectiocn to is present before we pursue thiz?

10 that. CHAI g4m.- JENSCH: Does tha'h- ciude ou.

examiUjnation?

13

1Is

17

8

19

20

21

22P,

2a

24

95 7012 29 ONot just yet, Mr. Chairman, but, 2 X W-LiI be fin ished verxy uhortlyo

3 Ift, Knighton, if the testimony druonstraed to

4, you that th construct schdule w : protacted

5 for the closd-cycle cooLn. ' than you had

6 anticipated, and also that t'ho epectsd Pot4. tial vizon

7 mental impact of the uncs-through coolimag sys'tte waa elgnlfiocantly Less than yova h-ad earl.ler -a-derstood it'C lko be"

a. wouldn't you perhaps alter the condi.tit which you have

reicommea.ded [o that a closed-cycle cooing 'spem 1xould not

be -equired until perhape 19817

12. CHAI UN JENUSCH: Weil what, Is thi- a~surancmi

13 in 1981 that you Implied by your question? 14 10-R. TROSTEN; U-11, the basic 'oint Mr. Chairman

arnd I am not tying Vir. Knighton to 1981 by y queation,

26 -!that's wyhy I said perhaps 1981, was that thls is the

1 roughly the eight-year schedule that the Appl2ocaatC,1

18 proposing Is a more rational schedule undor the clrcumat, ,

hors. Aa I sIy, I a- not tying Mr. I(nigh .ten to that

20 particular date in this paxticular question.

CHAXMUM JENSCH: Proceed.

22 WITNESS KNIGHTON: I think the answer to that

is that subject to outr present condition of not having

once-through cooling after Jaa.ury, 19780 if that condition

exists and there is a monit-orng program going on now, if you 7013 az'2

' a ,?3ma0u'; o.tils in 1:h.- -fu u'a bbt:'een t myez azld them' c me " n

3 thmt Our SN~af Ae'lutn t~hc-;r p a1a ac.ac

4 u.d1p i 'z ... "or that could be totwEighed 5 in here.

6 .,Right now, bamed on ur- ,.s-d on O

7 infovm-tion, this 10 our conclusion

MiR. TROS TEN Inthw13 ordz Y ou weer, 'r,110

0 WI.TN.,S M.NGHTON- Thiat mi ght.

MR. TROSTEN: All right. 2 P- No is Itnot trU, Rixo ximigh"ton, that. You; 1"Tould

i3 be able to qua %tifytie baenits and costF of a closed . cycle cooling alternative and also qantiy the " of r I the prent- once -trough cmolng 3yote much more adequately 16 1if :oe complete informtion were available, to you than 1.31

presently available to you?

WITNESS KNIGH.ON: a n ure I could, to

qui y it b .... Yes o

MR.0 TROSTSN: Now If the avid-nce damastrated

t the biologist oxperts available to the Atormic Energy

Comssion's *Rsgulato Staff that aa&, exvizo eet¢ damage

which rdght be done by the once-through cooliag ayater

24 clearly would not be irreversible, would that affect the

P25 I balance that you have draw.? I a3 702.4

WITNESS KNIGH-TON: i usct it would, yes

2 CHAIRMAN JENSCH: Do you have any more queations

3 like that? If any of theliactrs th Stf has considerted

4 are changed sus~lly swouC it have chaaged the coaclu

S s.ion? I think it Is ainaot self-,vldeut, but. if you can do

6 it in some qemeral fonri rather than tWe it peemal. ho

witnesses We iaricated that if the factor are aM

Oif Aentw tYU-z s dill ferent case, yoget a 1i ar

plant, there m ght be a differoent resultt I think that t s

10 about as ar as they go.

MR. TROSTEN0 Mr. Knighton, i have only one more

questioa for you. The -- there was a - there were a

a, umber of differencee baetween the draft environxnontl ttatt--

r4wat and the Fial Environmental Staten.ni that correct?

15 WITNESS KNIGETON: Yes.

17

21

22

23 7015 3 0 .tal StateMez:.t eWait! e D-:e -T.

. -. =~'e Ld~~~n ~~ xcM3lt relo

id atuallyaot i q t i' "- ..... and it,•h i (f ~ , iV"STYSNI Dit-fh dnOt at a': tually'

m ne 1t~4 '170,23Woud youli&~i~ fn~r tha hee tie tafZ fom the ti:Te .tha-t w:as ened to -ime , was oiihd. til :ha Draft E rozoTenIP Statee

a87 thtthe Finial Env.,a cOnClusioll? the- Staff to alte3 its ultimate by a. NSCI. Can't that be done 9 CH Al R'MAli you look a- one aied 5 09-.:two dorents? Can't there are differenmso 'tb.. other and see if M CTara4 The reason jIo 3TROSimkqYI di& c -,to bad qar Mr KnL t2lte question w-as xnot -a-ked , , to d"n 7' . 01lY to t:ry to identify mnywmy or ake p ti-elC bkt 2 I f c C e ha beeni vey which factor is -the most sg Zor US t it would be helpful helpful thus far" b Inmm which parts w2ee. :'to wide .5tand this so we could and we would be in the best ,"Oii ca to the Stafr to the StagE and the Board position to . , t eidence 24 it. That iz the reason for 25B on those matters. 7016

of CHAtOLUR M J~Z.SCH.: Isn't it .-:ea.-y a matter final &tatent judgment the Staff has enpressed in their cu:thesideationg? an, .ha2t. judient is based uwpo are £ .on Mm.nw Anar the fac'la± d, ..ernC,. aerencea-e mters of 5 but it e~s to ie the factal di comp a isono '.-d i f lie lt ... "h r C a r 137 8 be~a5e thece .ha..,e baee a ot of changes a:¢e o. nS .. E OVroento- Statem,-nt E-from' the .a0o in thre fina'li "n , 14. to know,# ,I..aftj.j iat,- stemetatent It dilfficult for&,r the as Applicant era is - mi . .Laj .3 g jL caised there hih ez-e the significant O.us that -a basic diffeence bewteen the 4onc.lusoni the Appli can- t md the final statement and it is hard fw $ta,- to "o know what we.I:e the -acto.s -that c.,vse the them .in.;oUT , iin a_ so that we can address I .1.:testinonyo

RAi 11 etizaination. :For one thing? I inferred that - the

was di._F cE~xZntIy" appoac hed i fe.ren.e 1 piological damage i-, the_ :U l.at is a q.estion fo0r ,th...... 'it ":...... not? .old. .TOSTENTR .ll.... b

Udt.o aubmit a writtef ns~o

11ita pe Prior to neXt

~41~A1~4~ .1am kiot evov surns is~r~urd 701 7

to the evidenca CA NSC:t see! 11 yn~t~S~dv~~tdoDa.%O bet Wo~~I~ is available,,~C. of emd irasarsult - betq t2he two) it Cara..ritaao X present 7ou com o at c e epe take it th aS.. .. .e&- to the S 'a z .. sec.tio by section., s a p~age by page or G ,nt Give 6' I bzave " " ,. . su-e~--i 'ad ';.hy I -w the 0:C ~e~ 1 ,i dc a e in o r ~ s tet ei~p I2r Ath~ *1 II wher the draft statet :r piacew te jripa% areas 12 quest-tin ".j a,'n a ttnio " hat" nc~ha ging ts Ultmt 13

14 •, t e m arat 15 nOrjluiin,, ftoon, thih s VtjL .,M .k{ , think -e~tha is an ieas3nable o w iC d O$ .d e.= it.- onestin the

19

".!. - .('. • 20 to n15go too ga r -o start tI~ the Stafg rely# . 00ia~- oc"Be-RAK Of theeafms. teSafjs to q!ire into the mental proesso this ort thet pi-ece h10 inj3.uencad they were by 22 enactfly

'i! orpinforma toe

R.KA AN" The- pp - .. the C and os~tionl of the do .m~nt s s 1 pp0 ~ting I Staff anf h.atof :he those 7018

, 7 -- not t yin- . . Chaimr-r lR b TR.1OS 1 ,.rN S@afo. 6vosses of the Regulatory top2b e .- e ,- Staff ai!d the oursel fo- the I don't uvde-rss w all of this in Sha Y ot A the Intervenors n-e .. tell me th-e most Sag i caict Cm, ply 0'T. xnightan to - cn:,7_m*.onio" It Ghould ,e 6 aC-'--TO that im.f,luenced the fon hiem to do th" the easiest .hing in the world -gnfUave 2R. m-CB8 T H It -1s that word" trou-ble with W_;;:o Chalrytal'o factors then MfL TOSTEN What we.ce the n mind. Mr. Kmgkto is tha& caused him to change his

responsible for this docmento " s what MRo MACBEIV - : I think this vi~s-ep'esen .position which is that f4 I hav7e u erstood as Kmiqhtonils members from tl'e biologistfs and at ! s he took the conclusions

of the Staff. isn't in command MR. TROSTEN: !f r. gKnighi:'n I don t now. 8 gomeons else sbould come here. the Applicant isan.ing 3NLT-1., Counsel for 19 MR. opinion 20 .the basis for Dr. Goodyear's Zor Dr.. Goodyear's MR TROS- :N I am not asking - n analys7is° opinion, Dr° Goodyea d i t draw this cost/benefit

Mr. XnIghton- did. CS Y JE Co I think the qeSt-ion a explained

persuasive he is asking what are the by Applicant c'o sel that 25 ii

IF zat~s;a.d I 'th±iui-"-O~~h5C c 3-'3 be eruliecd O eak5 ci2x6e rm'x one- -postion to 22 ins3ofar as there ha been~ a 3 ___ I e d. ~ra MCHIKMI JERO! H.- Cbleca &Mavca~s;o A

7 h

I: :7 25

19

20

22

24

25

I 7020

feel would rather subAt * arn Do you you inA Xriting? 23 WI2TESS :tNIGWUON: X would hcnye we- coluld aun-se

in that ha.t w did we reacted to c07.cxments as recuired 7 by N1EPA. We had to red w:ork As an example:, biological

work was redone in many areas because of your co Xen'ts,

3 Con Bd "s comentc This, as 1 remsmber it, Increased

our prediction rather than decreased 1t.. Thi affected the balance here.

MR. TROSTEN: I understar.d you did that nd.

that's required to be done under NEPB. .But you haven't told

17 me what the s.gnificant factors wears Perhaps 2 you

would like to answer this in writing it Is all right wit°" h

m.s Perhaps you would rther do that.

CHAIRMAN JEOSCH: I think If it involv es 55 I do 02 a review it might be more precise and more helpful. think you are entitl-ed to know what t-he substantial factoZ.;

23

Does that conclude your examination?

MR. TROSTEN: Yes, itr does, PAr., Chairmian,

CHAUIR04 JENSCH- With that, we have concluded

our projected agenda for today. 25 Did you have sorathiag?

MAR. MACBETH: Both the Assistant Attorney

General m-4 I wre going "to cros.-examine tht Applicants 2 02 I: think the O . on coo-t-benefitCt, I thin k r~ather bricellvo

,0 al1= It -Oght tion9 would pCobably t;ae av. houor so Ar .unchua m .- 4 make -- might ba more U4abreak

5 it ql1.ick1lr in. 4-Te famc

the ~ ~ 6'The i~dea uwas -to ,,T 7 %hywuid/ n .. eo .txa

CHAAI-k J&Nscll: Woul1d the wi-esse )S

13 Macbeth . I.R , ,, W . ! ir Carter"

%,aijnn~ng o .ext 15 going to be i Long Island Ihe the 61d of the week. .16 It poesibly could be toward CHAI.NIM jENSCM Weli, wa may get into a 17 8 week, as I infer some of the12me proced Vre9.

have h!o 20 certainly will be agreeable to CHAzIM JENSCU Would that

quest.orsing? 22 .you to defer your ndw. We ill ta:ke the State of N-ew, York

2i-R CORCON Thenk you, Ex. Chairman.. thlie t a cst-benefit 25 Gentimen, do you agree 2 ar3 1702 far as p ibl all the costs alyss shoald rxa-asur so will incur? I and benfito wich a ad project WITNESS KLIGHTOM: Yee 3 11-1321 4, MRO CORCOZAN: e you, awJe that SVMZon

-,iSn 4 of the State Environmen'al 9 aad Section 17-0925, Subd the tsk ng of fish from the river 6 Conservation Law9 pohnits also :imposes a penalty of $10 7 by draw ng off Wat r and you aware of this statute? Per eaoh fish so taken? Were calls for. a legal 9 MR. KA)IAN: Z 1hink this on of a statute. to -- an intarpre.tat !0 deterAin at io as Well, asstume the interp.tatiofl 1 CHAIPMEPAN JENSCH: if that is a correct interpreta I I think -he is only asking isn't that You may contend it 1 tion, did you consider t be a factor", that interpretation zhouldn to the questio n also, MR, TROSTEN" I obj(@ct 15 5 Is Mr. Chairman o I take It CHAWP0AN jENSCi: Well,

to 0It :T am FpI4AN- I am not objecting 18 U'R fOrm. 19 objecting to the arg that will be open to CHAIRPAN JENSCHU I think 20

viftness may answer Objecti O overruled. The into We did not take it WITNESS KNIGHTON: 23 considerationo 024 of this year, I believe MR. CORCORMAN In October 71023

0 t. State Supronme under the Consalidatd Eion'able w 2 Court hed that jaw; would this couxt in vialatio: of state 3 statute and waa not constda tha Jn m dc,should you demination -- vith h system? 4 the o e-/.ru cooling 5 the Incre ased cost ot

£R. T OE O bject tv the quest.ono mro

S'Chairman.o

131

S5

20 I

* 22

23

* 24

25 7024 32

CHAIRMIN JENSCH: What grO~fld? of. rejeaanc, Mi.~ls fOr 2 MR., TROS3T1N: No showing andi in all.y part Of the witn~ess, a legal conclusion on the

evenlt, the case is on atPpeal I think we can2 accept 1C"MIRM.1' JEDISC-m' Well, as to relvalcYa you have indicated, buit those condtions that Houl match further should be shoon. I think perhaps something had? the $1.0-~ rate th~at you fish were involved in fish., 155,000 and 163,.000 NR0 CORCOPUAN-- a -throw CHAIrNyAN JENSCH- At $10,

(Laughter.)

It confes to approximateYon 7 ~R.CRC 3-

:.Poit si rtiliofl dollars. deci- to $1-.6 millionl if the M.TROSTENz I~t comeIs

0 Sjof is ultimately upheld. has been Ymiade by a MR. COjrCORANH- A decisionl now the law. jurisdiction- .Thigs is .Court of competent 21 ovar iled caLoI%4AN JESCH Objectiofl the matter off the PMRQ TROSTER: Mr., Chaizzmen, that may be required here-iz of the -any fine 5 rettilmg has been set dw separate hearlni Vhic'h alsQ the eubject of a

for trial. have to assume those CH!AIRA jENSCHg We will cost. B3ut assuin~g thai condti~f8&'osS12~Y mn~tbe :1 it is let us say, you cotn there is 90pp poiesibilitYr 7025 S wit-h Dr-o Goodyear,,..,. We went t.-ough that improbabe3 L-e-to's 2m.U IN V" p o3 take the possiblitY

31 costs? Did you C,-- those 41 NO WITNESS KrHaGHTON ques.....3no Very welt0 Next C&AIP N JBESC3 n bo.i0-.7. you have es.i.jmaltd PiRo CORCORAN ~ I at the Indian 1 sy.t is emploCyed the once ihrough OO-g t:-fo atd five ,ilio i Point Nod 2 plant. that between that platnt, --hat cr..t? 5 wI.till be killed each year at . el staeneto I believe that is in you0r Final. 6 I 7 by impingementv w RUA -o th~at.ht We can sttpulate to 8 : ~MR0 1G31d4?Ut Very wel.. It is so stipUA .Ated. C...RC HAE. cmfloCH: very wal", 9

Next question. then it is q.Iitc if tiat is 00-r ecto IR0 COCG0Y,: betwSeen d Edison will be liAble possible that ConsEodate violating dollarrs a year for I twenty and fifty mil0lion I 0.6. Now if ..vironmental . onservation the sections of the bE 14 and they already have held to be "liable they are ultimatelY this increased me Court, should not by the State Supr dollars a year and fifty million cost of between twenty once through the cost of employing-the be considered in .. ,.. , , -I ,,,coo.ing .y%? Chal-rMa" .3 O for a spclto on 3mil M~ ROQ'A.N :iz3t i"ca:l5 2

h e part of theo V _stion h h, been no soing of n c l - o n pa.rt of the witness legal. Co u l 0,n the -here he is just sayif if CS[1< CH R4AzA,-4 wel shouldn't t/.at jncW t i this cost deVe3-0- all is i 11 be c ded-st That is s 4 sa : i the (uesio : MR., TROSTS-N-. As I c; l s gqroundso M is sneculaiveo 0 bjectionale on sevea! and part of thie wAitnes il .ConClui oon th

;he~ has been no for a legal c=Clu MR COQRCORh:N I aml not asking csstem ,OOm:h-,Z iz the(- once . sion am just saying sho,14 nct of $50 million a year is. veults in a liability the cost/benefit anaysis? th3is be estimeied in question thought h.is - the 9 CHAIAIN00, jENSCH: I quesstiov. of t e wes simIilar to som State of New York orrehe by the actor are differst .aj int th 1 change your result. somethag; won't you 20 pl-tosyntheisi affects h o u ldn't you consider 22 becomeas a factog s fie is asking if this Ihe cost. Objectionl overruled 23 consider such a cost? 0 24 Should yOU dscussng this particular KNIGHTCO We in 2~5 WITNSS '7027

z ,neand a-rriv at a decision that since it v'as a tn.J. ~ I . 2 II riex'- 1'") thalt we had no way to knOw that " 'te "emithe s .a cidn t ,e n.w? we could apply 4 ght go '6p o CRAmRvweq J'ThS i %ou say it 7 but it rmuld be thdere i wou d be 10 WITN~ESSE' IGHIT011 d-,d t Spaid. (Lauqhter o

r .nome is fato in presenCOt coYKdiin . thin t!mt

te. ar .iySai, You ajsum.t the conat uncc' of

17 you should conslde condition. On that basis, do you thi'k

18 the cost? I' have to: zz,-,1 wIeNSS 10IGH'I4t. On that basis, yes. upholding by an 16 MAR. V R"NK Also assrming -the deteinatio n , appellate court and the fMnal legal of the things, CHAIR7N JENC1,v Ohq I think all might not occur, too. There 19 just like the photosy thesis

20 are variations, of. course. you 21 M1R, CORCORU113 Than!. an eng nee'r from the Attorney 22 Mr. Peter Skinner, questions.o May he proceed? General's of fice has a few this some engineering? We Z4 CHAIRM..14 jENSCH. Is X don't think you were here, 25 had the qustion; this morning, 7028

I 0 12 i3. D xtawler laid a foundation for his tebpch ica2 interrogation

at the requst of the Staff and I vionder if you could give

us a Statement of . .ChniCal. uaificatio .. ."a to

technical interoqatio, o

MR. CoRCO'Ai"ler? Mr. sk MRo SXINNER I have be, epoyed for two years

with the State Attorev General s office as

enginae, and graduated, from Lehigh Uxiversity in the same

field0o

10 CHAIPJER2N, JENS C Evionmental ehin'r!n 12 1,R SKINDIER. Yes. CHAIM1 J1SC5X Ve ?",.el1 :. hat work have you

13 been doing with the State Attorney General envi oraental 14 engineering?

15 -MR.SKIDNER: Everything .

16 (Laughter.)

17 CHAIRMAN JEWNSC: Qualificaions established,

18 Please proceedo

19 '%Laughter.)

20 MR. SKINNER. Thank you.

21 I don't know who to address which witness to the chemical S 22. address this to, but are you familiar with 23 parameters of cooling tower blowdown?

24 WITNESS KN1IGHTON: In general, Yes.

25 DgR. SKXNNER: Are you fmmiliar with the State Water 70)29

of a ;oly t the disc'rge .6mii ity S a whch may to the huson River? *1 blowdown WITNESS Itin0 t 3 I knowledge, j 2 with youZ jeneral MR. SICNNER: Wello

water quality atandards may are you l those I qualitV standards in egistenfce applyo, that- hr are water I which may apply? TNSS..o KNIGI{TON if they are approved standards I 9 yes, they would apply. n your pinRio. it the blowdow o, ..... c State standar&kd water quality S will ytot meet New York . in your adequate te c tjroloy available 12 standards, is there l tf " harm blocdOWn to rcndetC the " 13 opinion, to treat this

1A less to the river? for this JENSCUj. is that a question I q6 gentleman? the pr:oper I '17 1 MRo KA&tdfl'A: I am. not sure we haye

kno better to that unless they 8 people to respond 19 that I do certain general believeI yo1 made 20 MR, SINNZR of these discovery of the feasibility 21 qualifications or Would not this same cooling systems, various alternative

23 determilnation be necesSary about am not -- I m talking 24 MR, 1tARNANM . I am best to respond° personnel would be 21 wnich of the Staff 7030

Of o0.-! 7ri • no aying- -the Staff I i %iwhich respond. Would b,e -ne most able to die, you Consider thixs 3 S-...NE s Gen3erally desc.iv'i,h.on of tes~e alternate p-obl- th fesblty , S co~i ,gsys-tem? te chel,l'cal ,.eS ... -. IC)ve conszidgereI

right offhand that we I~ ~ ,. afntSr can sely

3 -the Tiver,, okigat- tcheir .effect oil

10,

nt'er~ ) IOkI~ Wi fe~

10

17

19 2_0 I 21

Il * 24 25 7031

MR. Si.a d m syste a t .OW -01sts, out ths rzrd wacte " in t' 3 fact havte tbe ""h&4ged 14 WITNESS- MUGHTON V.S o 5L MRo SKI NNER: In XS9GrenCG tO ld-l Salt d'-P 5 ito oZ th" prqped --. or from yougdr 6 t:o fronj tbe n tLwers, draftr f oi I alternate-Ca-pling sGst...., natuZa1a uz Or Gnvi0-o;. 3, state tsatA Staff -onsider other ' , did the salt'- dejjosi'Lo rta:i-ra pan s iridapandent reporte wherein

salt tole.-anoea, wiee Irmss.igated?

WITiNESS CAR -R- Y~ea, anr'-ac . ;n-h KR. SKIXNNER: is the. Staft, 7 s in the e and..th:of f...... a b e reports? areas o, the afonmantiqzed a Study, you are _ ,!Orking..to WITHESS CARTERs 1f 22 that, ragr- pwZ cubic the Fork i.xvear eatudy considered

mter YOU aVar;0 Of t-kle M'ho ma.0 SKINMER' RrG in the atmsphere. assess the ambient ealt ieyoels 4 available to vicaltY of Indian Point?. 23 in the restat - the qkes"ton? WYJTWESS CAX R: Would yoU v s in -be Fozked Ri r MR. SKINNER: I believe the aimbient zal% 2A] warhode-we used to assess description • co2iudapply 2E Do you .fal that these 0 levels In the atmspherso t6 the Indian Point area? I 7032 I

they would be . ar2 WITNESS r fj, diAferCC. would have lcwer values becauseoe NRC SX flWERv: ThatIs .all I have., I I have tzone additiOna Ii MR. TROSTEN: r.-. Chairman, nwr Knighton i iWo i aetosto dlr&ACt to- Pte.

to Ox.. S11j4r-J.. yOU. caXe to dq,zS a CEAIIR4AN JENSCH: would Ii 0.1 oE mr Viacteth is cmiYUag to &efiSDX Mr.. acoth is doLztg? 2 be avail&b3.Le a Sta.f rOU32SQ 11 ad theseC g antl'om irt. w:l to pk ZItose up latar. ."TmzadI.vv1adwcntder- ma-tri I W;oul. llke to Thre is jjut c(.e other the svllnect whot e I. shoul be bring' up. I day't. kaovr n the c-"rse, -of ithe Proceed .f brie -i nvw or cometima - V don' t anra to unt.aka. inga but I certanlyt I state az n i "ttzRra"with any determilat•Of of New T"rk .1 i f Ish through cou.ts. about this o0 your anticipated appoals at thi a factor to be...onsid.rxd kI.ll, situati"on, but Is adeumlng thet "-h New all Ln the proposed operation I has indicated, New York State counasi '14 York State law Is as per unit of fish? -a fins will beS levied State of New York will is It li.ely that the repeated viOlEt' kill or t-ey reat per it thio anual and 2 the licanS$ to drive away like a -coffIw and take let you buy tiey are not going to close the plant because

fish at that rate. 7033 a3 c tlnued v~olation of a So my i, doe a factor wr a plntI? , that mS-a~t'a :LawO" affact. the as I ovy. thQ promirD of cono dered? AssUm.irsi W to be as,-adviolatioD b aa2sjn9 a repoatt 4 ~youmay dbputi 0 :Ln the T C a to be - statq law--q i that :fact:i. @ .,Opea't'Aanofap.at violatAonz AGO UM.oY-S XODO&It~d 7,T.O-Nz rgy ,onsaed by t Atoc It tt toe

a -c . o o f or i e ca v. 0A, C ,m s C NIoA mE-z-;,anX~~f and. igno Ge, fz&s~D, 1011 agency over!oo

lat? 12 oE state probcI1 is Weil ,x. C2a2 :!V.- the MP. TROSTN: a 16-h a.violation of the stt that T9,he"'he M, ISe~

what I mean - 15 Oubjt of e33 16

17

20 2

22 23

24

25 7034

CAIRMAN jENSCH: I agree. AcceptiAng; that pr,-mifse. the S this questiWfl ot -i 2, MROQSTh in J-.f you we will addresd r it 3 ChatrVIln d0iresC eunquisCy Mr Cha ,Pa. not a s ecu].bteve ,4 Is this as Iher there :Ls such a thi.g 5 tfhe fact that the . h that',t; is Of state laws is .peeate violations coU;t of thbe state perhaps to the highest 7 being contested and so forth., and back dotm again s s ib i l t y ag.:e. that that Po CvIt J1NSC a, 3jot are sustf6-ainedo Of does e-ist and if you donot hay yoU . supposing YOU Probj Len. nti'e hs o-oher way, what and tha cDert say5 p contentions accepted

does a federal agen'Y do? I it is the license. /that - when • 7OI 1 realiz e state and will conform with the ApPliCant 5is s ys of thing. and that sert 1 feder&Il laws that particulax PrOvi~iOn MR. TROSTEN ctually

- under a the Commssin been rIOved Eom ie you Imow has Caimn recent ame"andment, Mfr that has Yesr. but any license 20 CHAIRMAN JENSCH' I: to ito It is not "lkely had that clauD5 in i21 been issued has We are then faced in view of this aMenfdent !hae it now with repeated violationl of -whtdo you do with the prospect that they exist, of state lawis, assuming the conditions which E And assUming that S R R- ST 7035

e xCSt violatior' Of tl^e stia t e 1a'S mil I could levad to ,epeated doub~le asV t~n oterwrds , there is a gee ecogrdize you may& 3~~~~~ JES ~ 3 wcdn'tpyr3. V7&nt and it is under Ppsal 14 p~te that promis e reflect tlpo'n 'chat or h&ave 0-nLy statemenlt 5 to interfere ;.Ath rzntupsd that., TASan yorapei Youx efforts3 'Lo do all Cerne ant. 1 just cases dont qtite 7 sometImes those

d '4 fined Zdison91 Will 100 rep 1'1at Cons0 1d, odat 3O 11.,.lihoad that a strong ppsbl~~ fo uh i2~~'btalso

unmder. h~if piant- closed down iOn-Ge nay order th~e 13 0 oii he sc i vhich under the Eav:ironmfental * 14 'Powers fish kills at indian after the M-&SSive is did iast r'ebruary 16 ointo atigqest th~at Chairnane I woul.d MR TROSTEN 3 i 17 State authorities~ of the Vhat the conzn S the subject of povions givenl the3 X'ious or maY P-0i do, of tiwYrr ay statutory aIIira~ the provisianS 0i Of RIGN York State lalw,7 20 teraaf~b~ tihe r&IOUS ageancic~s 21 an~d respofsibilitiese subje-ct that is nOt Y0r~k State, is a of the court in New 022 for by a licensing. board 1C. be embarked upon 23 appropriate I.Gads off into an ex~ceedin.ly reason that it P4, the simple I don't think the. sort Of inquiry. 25 pdau1ative uncerta.in I 7036 1

contemplate that COm- i Yss reuhionS 3ril provisions in the 21 needs to be addZres,. this subjeot t YiflnJ your st,ate~e't as C2Al[RNAN. jT%3NCU Well 0 bv.-.Speculative. 31 .Osd eysmv~tv yo hvclI. :. I think: it would b you havM! just givee it afeea 7 1 vel-s m Should. 5 My inqui how43e v e- iS a Ve si piC one Sl law in regard vio lationfls oci state isagencg ovarlook ee, fet.rai. licelO? to the issuance of a have been d vict i.a o.iwch 81 TMMW. TR0STF2g ki-

as sise th e esistenlce ChAIUA, J. ,SC...ViO lationhs

hs ocurred oc an eveiAt which then ! 5Jbl a.... MROTRL Y:On? questio-ue

a lderini waethe. ti. federal agencYe in cons ork State laW5 violato,;is of New f.o repeated 9 license"oh New Yor?, State law to r 1 hich have been showT un&.r Viola-.tion? t ass-SUDta C~h~I~I JNS H 0 ofcuxj o those circumStanCe A All toigh' Under MR4 TROSTh i inqui:Y tnen would it not then, this ou'id be an abstract

20 Mr Chi %aA

2127 2

3

4 7037

' ....~ I don t know vyhs',her to call arl omethi that is going on 2 it bstrct or concre s ,i rt is a gwOtiOa nowen tdptb3 IM. bDnSr becaus 1 thi.lK X2.fy X think we; ogt, :to &nl the cutsot of this podi 1 of the putli c ,indicated at in ils :f~\ 4apaC1 vorsflcWgot ap a""tL Sta qoi,g to pay any attention :11 is the .tC,=4C Energy Cowmeim-nr On 3cir . That. q*e.ti is stll -.to 'thevLo.at'.0ln of stat

gelf to 91 If ya ,hill give us a brief bo.gbe 4e ~1 It. we- -will be to hava :indings and cvnclnions , MACBE:Coud I .- .. an inquiry 12 MR 0 t.ding Ltterm? about two other 0 wish am.y sur,,hfSatc '?ira-t oi. all , does t iiaZ'd13 1

Ap.-_,lcaft "I and RoseOX motion? The briefing n the Bwling the two stateraent of f,-cts about provided a quits lengthy t-hat tiat ;as all the Board 171 plants, and it was my memorF Wanted to be SU-8 183 had nsed I just If you desire to sutmit anythi... 4 19 aIAXRZ4AN j'NSC- 16 .m1 o. Board would iev.3liov your 2A in that risgard, thrc the statment was full MAR. k.A CBETH. I thought into the the'e was no need to go further 22 and clear and fully felt ray positOn%waS Ctainly 23 factual statement. I presented. matter under CHAI*MN JENSCHII ThS Board has the .no considerat

I 7038 at2 Vlh.en'.vv aay par ty wies~h trb make a ttm:,.,

~ ~tic1 .efglad to 3

Act? will fil(e his brie2 on, aoltioW'Ae; Cont :3J.

by thi Chatiuma 3 tt2 t.

that correct? '8 Ia cHh"EMMAN J"B'Vischl: tl"'e dat-a was 've

4. XL;.tu at ti ie 7 WGCaa

I bear o such " ge=tm'.'X

At th:l tixme dlliepx csedlntg will recess to 14 , U. S. Tr -f _Beconvene on the aghth Rlor heaking r 0 D.C.,, at 9:30 Coxmni n2,o 8th and, E Stragoto3, Washlngtn, 14 EA.' 12 said eighth flor? 13 M~R.~ TR"TN Yoa I C~fl3ANJ-NSCW±4i Th.1rd a2or.th an~d E. 19 an 20 sorry. at 1:30 P.M., the hearing was 21 Dacembo 12 , adjourned, to reconvene at 9:30 am., Tuesday,

1972, in Washington, D.C,) 23 . ci3~3 24 25 mk

N N

TOCBKET AILE copy

-- o~