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17120 R. RESHA speeches were interpreted "by somebody; do you know who acted as interpreter?— I think we had two interpreters, Mr. Maguma and Mr. Tshabalala. Henry Tshabalala?— That xs so, my lord. And was he an accused at the Preparatory Exami- nation?— That is so, my lord. Now, Mr. Resha, I had also at the adjournment referred you to this bulletin 'Welcome Freedom Volunteer' and I just want to point out to you that in this bulletin it said that the volunteers must learn to be, and the volunteers must teach, and then it refers to pamphlets like 'New Age', 'Righting Talk', 'Liberation', and 'InyanisO' which support Congress aims. Now I see also, as late as 1956, when you were still on the Secretariat of the Nation- al Consultative Committee, at that stage the Transvaal Consultative Committee issued a circule AM.32 dated June 11th, 1956, in which it stated the National Consultative Committee of the five Congresses had decided that from the most able, courageous consistent and reliable Congress members volunteers should be selected and formedinto Volunteer groups. You remember that decision of the National Consultative Committee, in 1956?— It's possible. Nov/ this circular is directed "by the Transvaal Consultative Comittee to the South African Congress of Trade Unions, and it sets up tasks for volunteers, and then - "Task, 4: Every volunteer is required to read carefully, to study and to discuss with his group every issue of the following publications, New Age, Liberation, Workers Unity, Congress Voice, Sejaba, South African Peace Council's Bulletin, and Righting Talk." Now, would that be consistent with what the National Consultative Committee 17121 R. EES HA wanted volunteers to do, to study and discuss every issue of those bulletins?— That would be consistent. Now, Mr, Resha, you said on Friday that as far as 'Liberation' is concerned, the only person that you knew that was connected with it was Dan Thloome?— That is so. Do you know if he was a Communist?— I know that Mr. Tloome was a Communist, And you said that as far as 'Fighting Talk' is concerned the only person that you knew who was connected with that was Ruth First?— That is so. Do you know if she was a Communist?— I know she was, my lord. You didn't know if Lionel Bernstsin and Yetta Barrenblatt were also connected with 'Fighting Talk'?— Not to my knowledge. You knew them, didn't you?— I know them very well. And did you ever discuss 'Fighting Talk' with them?— No, How did you know them, as friends, co-strugglers in the fight for liberation „„?— I know them as co- strugglers in the fight for liberation. What Congress movements did they belong to?— They both belonged to the Congress of Democrats. Do you know whether any of them were Communists ?— I have no knowledge. Now, 'New Age', the Rand representative that you knew was Ruth First?— That is so, my lord. I take it you also knew that 'New Age' and its predecessor 'Advance' — that people like Carneson 17122 R. RES HA. and Horwitz and Porman were closely connected with those ?— That is so, my lords. Do you know them as having been Communists?— I know that Mr. Carneson was, I don't know about the others. What about Porman?— I have no knowledge about that • Now, Mr. Besha, the only people that you knew that were connected with these bulletins that were being held out to your volunteers for study purposes and discus- sion, 'New Age', 'Fighting Talk', 'Liberation' - - the only people that you knew that were connected with and responsible for those bulletins, were Communists? MB. PISCHERt My lords, these are ex-members of the dissolved Communist Party, if your lordship pleases. 15 RUMPFF J; Yes. MR. TRENGOVE; You know that after the Commu- nist Party had been banned - do you know whether these people changed their political views in any view, as a result of the banning of the Communist Party?— I have 20 no knowledge, Well , these people who were responsible for these bulletins that I've mentioned, you know them as ex-members of the Communist Party; did you ever enquire as to whether or not they were using these bulletins to put across Communist propaganda?— I've never enquired into that. Would such a thing concern you in any way, or wouldn't it worry you?— It wouldn't worry me at all. 17123 R. EESHA It wouldn't worry you at all?— No, my lords. Because I want to put it to you, Mr. Resha, that what these bulletins were doing was to indoctrinate your people with Communist propaganda?— If that were so, my lords, these people would have been arrested by the Government. I have ne-ve r investigated that myself, but if that were true they would have been arrested. Mr. Resha, the one document that you've made spe- cial mention of, and which has not been mentioned in the ordinary circulars that were being used in the training 10 of volunteers, is this document 'Self Discipline for Volunteers of the Congressof the People', being Dr.Naicker's speech at the 1954 Conference, TET.54. You said you used that for training?— That is so, my lords. Did you use the whole of that document?— No, I've 15 never used the whole of any document for my lectures. Now which portions didn't you use?— looking at it now, my lords, I don't think I used these portions on page 3, on gardening and handicraft. Mr. Resha, how many times did you use this docu- 20 ment?— I cannot remember. I used it many times. How many times?— I cannot remember. Twice?— I cannot remember. Mr. Resha, you cannot even give the Court some estimate?— Unfortunately not, my lords. 25 Why not?— Because I cannot remember. Why can't you remember?— I cannot remember. Resha, you don't want to remember?— I cannot rememb er. You are not even prepared to give an estimate?— 30 My lords, I cannot remember. 17124 R. RESHA. How many times did you lecture to volunteers?— Many times. How many times a week, over how many years?— Once a week. Over what period?— Over a period of four years. 5 And you cannot even - - this was used some time after September, 1954-?— That may veiy well be so. Was this the type of thing you would use every week when you lectured?— I wouldn't say every week. When you give a lecture you pick out what is good in a 10 particular document and you use it, and you don't make a record and say "This I picked out from this docunBnt and this from that" - - but I did use it; unfortunately I cannot remember how many times. Mr. Resha, what body of the African National Con- 15 gress decided that this should be used as a basis to train volunteers?— It was never decided that it should be. Never decided?— No. Mr. Resha, I have a document here alleged to have been found in your possession, RR.10; it's a letter of 20 the 12th June, addressed to "My dear Robbie", from some- body whose signature appears to be J. Dinku. Who is the author of that letter, do you know? I just want to know who Dinku is?— Dinku was a Congress member in Port Eli- zabeth. 25 What's his name?— Dinku is his surname. And what's his ordinary name, J?— Johannes. Johannes Dinku?— Yes. Then I have another document here, RR.30, it's addressed "Dear Son of Afrika"; it's a letter of the 29th Octotoer, 1955 > and at the bottom there is the sig- 17125 R. RESHA nature 'Joe'. Then there's page 2, a letter bearing the signature "P. Adams". Could you just identify the authors of those letters? — The first letter, my lords, is Joe Matthews, the other one is Paried Adams. Is that J.G.Matthews who was an accused with you in the Preparatory Examination?— That is so, my lords. The other is P. Adams, accused No.l?— That is so» my lords. Now this J. Dinku, I take it he was quite an im- portant man in Port Elizabeth because he wants you to - he wants to know if the Draft Constitution of the League - - I take it the African National Congress Youth League is ready and he wants you to send it to him cyclostyled?— That is so. Did you have a cyclostyling business there, or was he on the A.N.C.Y.L. Executive, or what was his posi- tion?— I don't know if he was in the A.N.C.Y.L. Executive, but he was an active chairman. Of what branch?— Active worker. Of what branch of the African National Congress ?— New Brighton Branch. He isn't also known as J. Matthews perhaps?— Not as far as I know. Here is another letter, RR.79, which is addressed to "Dear Son of Afrika" , is that your signature on that letter?— That is so. And the person to whom you addressed that letter would that be J.G. Matthews?— That is so, my lords. Now then, Mr. Resha, there is another letter, RR.53, it's a Youth Action Committee letter to the African National Congress Youth League; would that be Kathrada 17126 R. RESHA Accused No.3, signed on behalf of that committee? KENNEDY J; He s igned the letter, did he? MR. TRENGOVE; He signed the letter on behalf of the Youth Action Committee, my lords?— Thesignature is that of A.M.