Well, I'm Back: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get a Choice

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Robert O'Callahan. Christian. Repatriate Kiwi. Mozilla hacker.

FRIDAY, 8 AUGUST 2014 Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

I know it's not the greatest marketing pitch, but it's the truth.

Google is bent on establishing platform domination unlike anything we've ever s even from late-1990s Microsoft. Google controls Android, which is winning; Chro which is winning; and key Web properties in Search, Youtube, Gmail and Docs, are all winning. The potential for lock-in is vast and they're already exploiting it, f example by restricting certain Google Docs features (e.g. offline support) to Chro users, and by writing contracts with Android OEMs forcing them to make Chrom default browser. Other bad things are happening that I can't even talk about. Ind people and groups want to do the right thing but the corporation routes around th (E.g. PNaCl and Chromecast avoided Blink's Web standards commitments by d themselves not part of Blink.) If Google achieves a state where the Internet is re accessible through Chrome (or Android apps), that situation will be very difficult escape from, and it will give Google more power than any company has ever ha

Microsoft and Apple will try to stop Google but even if they were to succeed, the only to replace one victor with another.

So if you want an Internet --- which means, in many ways, a world --- that isn't co by Google, you must stop using Chrome now and encourage others to do the you don't, and Google wins, then in years to come you'll wish you had a choice a only yourself to blame for spurning it now.

Of course, Firefox is the best alternative :-). We have a good browser, and lots o dedicated and brilliant people improving it. Unlike Apple and Microsoft, Mozilla is committed to the standards-based Web platform as a long-term strategy against And one thing I can say for certain is that of all the contenders, Mozilla is least li establish world domination :-). BLOG ARCHIVE Posted by Robert at 13:33

▼ 2014 (32) +165 Recommend this on Google

▼ August (3) Labels: Mozilla Milestones On The Road To Christianity cf1e5386ecde9c2eb9416c9b07 125 comments: 416686 Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choic... David 8 August 2014 14:52 I have always asked people: "How much more do you want Google to know ► July (2) It's that simple. ► May (3) Reply ► April (4) ► March (11) Replies ► February (5) Anonymous 8 August 2014 15:15 ► January (4) is it that simple? ► 2013 (58) It's not that simple for me. For me, I actually think Firefox is a grea ► 2012 (45) It works well for certain things. Such as Google Hangouts on Ma ► 2011 (63) simply runs hangouts without any hiccups, while I often have prob ► 2010 (83) hangouts on Chrome.

► 2009 (55) Use firefox because it's a good piece of software. Underrated, in my ► 2008 (87) ► 2007 (113) Reply ► 2006 (64) ► 2005 (75) ► 2004 (4) Alexander 8 August 2014 14:56 Very ironic though that you're using Blogger from "Google" instead of hosti blog with an open source alternative. ;)

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Robert 8 August 2014 14:59

Yeah. I use GMail too. Fortunately, switching browsers is ea switching hosted services ... for now ... and I think it also has more i

Anonymous 8 August 2014 15:51

There's always jekyll/octopress (on github pages). or heroku. or op self-hosting it. There are tons of options that don't rely on google th or very cheap. Fira 9 August 2014 00:00

There's also Wordpress.com. While it isn't self-hosting, it enabl self-host later on. I believe there's a way to import Blogger data into I don't remember how.

evanwp 9 August 2014 02:23

http://en.support.wordpress.com/import/coming-from-blogger/

Anonymous 8 August 2014 15:03

"Of course, Firefox is the best alternative :-)" Chromium.

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Robert 8 August 2014 15:08

Google controls Chromium, and using it contributes to Google's con platform almost as much as using Chrome does. Ditto Opera.

Salam Kaser 8 August 2014 20:03

What do you mean Opera? Is it Google-controlled?

Robert 8 August 2014 20:19

Opera's browser is based on the Blink engine. Blink is controlled by

artfuldodga 8 August 2014 15:08 should of thought of the implications before everyone jumped on the goo bandwagon- they are not google is not good for the web in fact they are worse than Microsoft ever was personally I'm using Palemoon and IE11 doing my part to keep the we chrome is anything but standard

Reply Replies

Anonymous 8 August 2014 15:18

With no argument supporting your claim you might as well put a sa at the end of your post.

Anonymous 16 August 2014 10:24

"Should HAVE".

Mathieu Pellerin 8 August 2014 15:11

Robert, I don't understand why Mozilla doesn't do a better job a beating th privacy with _groundbreaking_ privacy improvements within the Firefox br inc. Firefox Android. I.e. it shouldn't just be a big slogan on your (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/desktop/), but actually rely o improvements in every new version of Firefox.

For e.g., if I go to see what's new in the Firefox Beta notes (https://www /en-US/firefox/32.0beta/releasenotes/), and search for privacy, I see ze Maybe nice privacy improvements are happening under the hood, b department isn't doing a good job at highlighting it systematically. You gu HTML5 ] tag, you should add a [ PRIVACY ] tag to raise the issue to deserves :)

Considering Google's economy is based on user data gathering, the privacy appeals to people, is a battle that's guaranteed to be won by you guys.

Replies Robert 8 August 2014 15:26

That's a fair comment and I strongly agree that privacy is a key wa differentiate ourselves.

We have put a lot of effort into privacy-related initiatives over the DNT, Lightbeam, Cookie Clearinghouse, restricting fingerprinting v Web API design, etc. They've generally been coopted by our co subverted, blocked, or just ineffective. But we haven't stopped t there's another major initiative getting ready to ship soon.

Unfortunately, a lot of the ideas bandied about by privacy activ practical for the mass market, so the problems are generally harde than they think. But we're always open to new ideas, especially if p willing to help implement them.

Mathieu Pellerin 8 August 2014 16:27

Lightbeam is cool, but it is really only a gadget that's not even integ Firefox by default.

Your last paragraph is IMO the line of thinking that hurts Moz moment: "ideas ... aren't practical for the mass market". That's wh can't get away from because of what it fundamentally is, but Mozill should. Your trying to appeal to Internet users who care about the not the mass market.

That said, I realize its easier said than done, and one must be prac how that's being approached. Yet, following planet.mozilla.org development of Firefox via mozilla-central pushlog for ages, I feel not being daring enough on that front, and rather seem to want to the status quo.

Web standards and superior technology is what got you to take ov Explorer back then. I remember Mozilla taking on some pretty ha vis-a-vis standards vs compatibility. You ignored the status quo an forward, and you won the users. This time around, the debate privacy, not superior technology, and being shy and/or going o established status quo needs to stop :)

Robert 8 August 2014 16:35

The problem is that we can't restrict ourselves to users who are make significant sacrifices for improved privacy --- which is wha privacy approaches (e.g. Tor browser) currently require. That's to market to be viable (I think). By viable, I mean enough market share devs test their sites in your browser.

The minimum to shoot for would be that we're as good as other bro with better privacy. I think that's reachable. Mathieu Pellerin 8 August 2014 16:51

Right. Tech-wise, nowadays, Chrome and Firefox are as a whole pr So yeah, differentiating yourself with privacy is the way to go. And you seem to have both a perception and feature gab to sell y superior.

When people talk of a Firefox vs. Chrome privacy comparison, superficial, revolving around "Google is evil data gatherer, Mozil That's not sufficient. There needs to be specific _default_ be features that can be marketed as tangible arguments you guys are s

Mathieu Pellerin 8 August 2014 16:54

The comment by David (14:52) is actually a pretty good example was referring in the last post as "superficial" :) What does Firefox do that's different from Google on that front? That's what nee coded/tweaked, shown up in tech news coverage, on mozilla.org's f in the release notes, etc.

michael 9 August 2014 02:57

Apple increasingly emphasizes privacy and users owning their ow that seems to indicate those themes have a mass audience.

Anonymous 8 August 2014 15:13

Haters all around. Hateful posts everywhere. I want to be ruled by a thousand mice.

Tuan Quyen Nguyen 8 August 2014 15:24

Stop using Chrome to prevent Google from dominating the Internet? What idea. Look, you are using blogspot which is Google, too!

Reply Anonymous 8 August 2014 15:45

Sorry, I want my browser to support free speech and tolerance, and yes, t tolerance for opinions you dislike.

That excludes any Mozilla project.

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Robert 8 August 2014 17:18

I'm an evangelical Christian, I'm very open about it, and most Mozilla know it. That viewpoint is disliked by many people at Mozilla I am after 15 years.

Brendan leaving was very very bad. I was very close to him and I w by it. But in fact everyone at Mozilla I know (which is a lot of people him to stay. The primary blame for his departure falls on gay activists, not Mozilla.

Anonymous 8 August 2014 17:42

Thanks, I greatly appreciate your take on the situation, but regard complete outsider, as a 60s/70s Jewish liberal I take very seriously to speech, to society and to IT that the social justice warrior set pos

HandyMac 9 August 2014 06:08

The primary blame for his departure falls on gay marriage acti Mozilla.

So, who runs Mozilla, again?

Bz 9 August 2014 09:23

Same for me. No more Firefox or Mozilla.

Tony Mechelynck 10 August 2014 13:55

What do you mean, boycotting Mozilla because you want tole opinions [they] dislike?

I regret the fact that Brendan was pushed into quitting, and yet I'm of gay marriage. I believe that the people who raised the hue and c him hadn't known him as well as they ought to have in his capac JavaScript” and as whatever he was at Mozilla. When he said h political opinions on the clotheshanger with his raincoat, I believed h Robert here is an evangelical Christian; Gerv has a blog titled “H Christ”; so what? I believe that, according to Jesus of Nazareth, pra religious opinions) are best kept to oneself, as a secret between “your Father who sees into the secret”; but their religious opinions far from mine they be, don't detract in any way from my admiration their respective capacities at Mozilla.

I still believe in the Mozilla Mission, even if I am not sure that Fi embodies it. I'm certainly not going to leave a Mozilla product for product, and for my first smartphone (I don't yet have one), I wo Android: I'll rather wait till Firefox OS comes to some place where hands on it.

Mike Kaply 8 August 2014 15:51

Then Mozilla needs to care about enterprise.

Chrome is dominating in those spaces because Google is willing to do wha succeed in those markets.

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Robert 8 August 2014 16:26

Microsoft and IBM dominated the enterprise. How's that workin them? Much as I'd like to have resources to pour into enterprise that's where good software goes to die.

Anonymous 8 August 2014 16:51

"Oh, I use Chrome at the office, so I'll use that at home because t know".

Mike Kaply 9 August 2014 04:03

Come on roc, you know what I'm talking about and it's not Microsoft

Google Chrome is making huge strides in the enterprise space. taking schools away from Apple.

They are making serious headway into government.

It's because of one reason - it's easy to manage and deploy. M completely missed the boat on that.

Managing Firefox is an absolute nightmare. Reply

Anonymous 8 August 2014 16:01

Mozilla really fucked themselves with their treatment of Eich.

It certainly doesn't leave the impression that Mozilla is a company with muc the rights of others.

Anonymous 8 August 2014 16:06 id prefer it if google won. Easier to develop for one browser, than half a choice is my vote. Because lazy

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Anonymous 8 August 2014 18:58

I remember those days. Dark times.

Anonymous 11 August 2014 22:34

I agree. One car, one bike, one house, one computer, one Everything will be more simple for everyone !

Anonymous 8 August 2014 16:09

I sincerely hope you're trolling, because we'd have to all be idiots to buy th trying to sell here. It is classic, textbook FUD.

Anyone with a vested interest in the web as a platform is fully aware that critical, and the industry's collective behavior over the past several y demonstrates this awareness. This goes for (today's) Microsoft and Apple ju it goes for Google or anyone else in the game.

When you post disingenuous, sanctimonious, bullshit FUD like this, all yo showing Mozilla's own evil side.

Replies Robert 8 August 2014 16:29

Avoiding bad futures requires prognostication, which necessari uncertainty. I tried to avoid FUD by mentioning specific examples leveraging lock-in across products. But thanks for your kind words.

Anonymous 9 August 2014 01:13

Actually, anyone who is paying even a modicum of attention know FUD or bullshit. But go on pretending you know better and telling shut up because they aren't toeing the party line. When alternative that don't have massive corporate funding are no longer an option your own words, but there are many of us who can see the fore trees, just like we did when Microsoft dominated the webspace. difference is that Google WANTS to dominate the webspace.

Anonymous 8 August 2014 16:37

If there were only a single browser in the world software engineers could time solving the same problem 5 different times and move on to more im impactful problems. I hope whichever browser wins is open source and I goddam soon so we can move on with our lives.

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Anonymous 9 August 2014 01:18

This viewpoint makes no sense whatsoever. Any semi-decent engineer" won't be solving the same problem five times if they software for the modern web. Stop pretending otherwise. Would li better if there was only one car brand and vendor? Having one eng only discourage competition and cause stagnation, like it did w (which is precisely the excuse let Google spin off Blink).

Lurking Grue 9 August 2014 08:16

And if you don't like the Chrome interface I guess a person would ju suck it.

Anonymous 8 August 2014 16:48 Even before Android and Chrome good still held a majority share of the se Today the **only** wholesale search providers that exist are Google and Bing

For all intents and purposes Google might as well be the internet.

The interesting truth to all of this is that Android is seemingly hurting Goog Google wants Chrome OS to be the dominant OS but they have to keep im popularizing Android in order to maintain leverage on where mobile heads to

Rob Gibbons 8 August 2014 17:02

Disregarding the FUD, I frankly want Google to win. The reasons presente why I continue to use their products: they are consistently competitive with, better than, their competition in almost every product category. I have faith continue creating genuinely useful products, services and platforms. More Apple and Microsoft combined (although I have great hopes for Satya Nadell

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Robert 8 August 2014 17:08

People said similar things when Microsoft took over from IBM.

And the issue isn't only whether the monopolist continues to innov Another issue is whether their power suppresses innovation by oth was one of the real problems with Microsoft.) An even bigger issue a single organization can be trusted with that much power; I have a of human nature and believe it cannot.

Anonymous 9 August 2014 01:22

They are no longer innovating as they used to. They have thin product lines, reined in their RnD divisions, and no longer want to but control. You can call this sentiment FUD if you'd like, but the o the web is growing right now is because Google are being kep check by competitors. They're showing the same signs of stagn anti-competitive behavior that Microsoft showed back when it near browser wars.

Anonymous 8 August 2014 17:27

Aside from browsers, there is also search. I've been suggesting to peop about avoiding another monopoly, that if they are using chrome+google.co switch at least *one* of them, whichever is easier. If they really can't google.com, then switch the browser. If they really can't live without chrome the search engine.

Switching to firefox+google.com (or safari+google.com, etc.), or to chrom either one is a significant thing to do to keep the market balanced.

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Robert 8 August 2014 17:40

That's a good point. I agree.

Anonymous 8 August 2014 17:42

Forgive me for ignoring the opinion of an adult who still believe in "god" and of childish make believe.

(Patiently waits for some "why can't we all get along" retort with the final line how I'm the one who is intolerant...)

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Anonymous 9 August 2014 04:42

If you dismissed every person in the world for holding some sort of or indefensible idea, you would be left sitting on a desert isla yourself...

Anonymous 9 August 2014 11:07

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Tony Mechelynck 10 August 2014 14:16

I'm not sure what I mean or don't mean by God, but…

Please forgive me for ignoring the opinion of an adult who refuse anything written about the Internet by authors who happen to believ

In my European country I've met many intolerant atheists and many Christians. I've also met many of both who were respectful of othe opinions. Belief or non-belief in God are no criteria for being p "ignore" list. Rigid intolerance is. Reply

Anonymous 8 August 2014 17:44

I'd prefer to live in a world where nobody had to think about what browse using because the web platform was so polished and consistent everywher standardization is the way to get there.

It is impossible to ignore the positive impact Chrome's existence has progress of the web platform. While you are certainly entitled to your (ra opinion about Google, and while I certainly hope that they aren't as evil as suppose, I just don't see any concrete evidence to suggest that monopolizi space is of any real long-term value to them.

Jake Archibald 8 August 2014 18:15

Google docs uses an Chrome-only appcache extension, that's why offline only.

A considerable amount of time and effort is being spent to fix this in a cros open way - ServiceWorker.

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Robert 8 August 2014 18:24

It'll be great if it's eventually fixed. The question is why it's Chrome- first place.

We're seeing something similar with Hangouts. Hangouts was a plu now you can run it in Chrome without a plugin. Oh wait, it require but don't worry, they're working on fixing that. Why not just write it browser way in the first place, or work out the standards extensions you need them? There's a definite approach of "get it working i now, get it working in other browsers eventually ... maybe."

Don't get me wrong, that's totally understandable and not n malicious. But it is very dangerous for a competitive Web.

Justin Uberti 12 August 2014 16:24

NaCl is only used for input preprocessing (AKA mustaches), an a not yet fully speced, and also performance-critical. Aside from th Hangouts works just fine without NaCl.

That said, I can understand asking why Hangouts doesn't work in short, we wanted to transition to WebRTC sooner rather than later, moment there are things holding us back on both our side (e.g. upg ICE implementation) and the Firefox side (e.g. supporting mult streams).

But overall, surely you're not arguing that transitioning a majo application from a proprietary plugin to an open web standard demonstrates that Chrome doesn't value web standards.

Robert 12 August 2014 16:45

What standards extensions do you need for "mustaches" and wher being worked on?

> surely you're not arguing that transitioning a major Google applic a proprietary plugin to an open web standard somehow demons Chrome doesn't value web standards.

No, that's not what I'm arguing. I thought what I wrote was pretty cle

Thanks for the information though. I hope it's clear from my origina the Chrome team, or at least the Blink team, are generally the goo my book.

Justin Uberti 12 August 2014 18:14

It's not yet clear whether it can be performant enough, given our CP but canvas + your captureStream ideas (https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/aud /tip/streams/StreamProcessing.html#media-element-extensions) m this as well as several other interesting problems.

Robert 12 August 2014 18:59

Can you start a thread on public-media-capture or some other lis me? My blog isn't the right place to work this out :-). Thanks!

David Anderson 8 August 2014 18:29

Roc - I believe this thinking is in part why Firefox has been losing market first place.

Mozilla has to compete on the merits of Firefox as a product, not on the developers. Developers can communicate those ideals through the product, are choosing to not use Firefox, there's a reason for that that has to be addre

The "we're the good guys" strategy only goes so far, and so far - has not have to be the good guys who make things people really want to use.

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Robert 8 August 2014 18:56

See my first sentence.

Robert 8 August 2014 19:04

Also, do you really think people at Mozilla are sitting around hoping good guys" is a winning strategy? Of course not. "We have to be guys who make things people really want to use" --- everyone un that. Or almost everyone. I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise. the JS team...

Anyway, none of that contradicts what I wrote in my post.

Jeff Walden 8 August 2014 20:23

While I've never heard of another one before literally today, I don't th the same David Anderson formerly working on JS/e10s. Just today a comment on Gerv's blog, also from "David Anderson". While that isn't obviously consistent or inconsistent with anything I'd ex dvander, the URL on the comment certainly is -- taken in light o mentioned on dvander's Twitter page, and in light of its poin non-functional domain. And while I can imagine (but have no reason to believe) dvander might concur in some elements of the made here (I would myself, for that matter!), at an absolute minim think he would have expressed them in a manner so reminiscent of firing squad.

And no, I don't think the position expressed here is consistent w people working on JS, for one. Or at least not fully consistent. I beli agree that principles have an important place, and ultimately the we're working for. Yet I think things like ES6 feature work, all the and developer tool improvements, games-related work, an demonstrate our concomitant interest in also "making things peo want to use", as a necessary prerequisite to implementing those pri

David Anderson 8 August 2014 21:01

Thanks for the reply - I didn't meant to imply that people were sittin Rather... I can't fault people for not wanting to use Firefox.

If someone wants to use Chrome, maybe it is actually better for the they really like it. It's hard for me to say "you must use Firefox" w don't know whether they should. I'm not even sure how I could know The mission is a vague document with vast scope. It means man things to many people, and that's partly why it resonates so str Mozillians (me included!).

My eternal worry is not lounging around, but relying too interpretation of the mission to drive the effort.

Anonymous 8 August 2014 19:39

Hmm... Firefox is only living because of Google. They are supporting Moz them 97% of their revenue. I think the best is that the best technology wins a not like Chrome use Chromium instead. I'm happy not to use Firefox anymor I really hate their plugin infrastructure with that XUL code etc. which breaks v

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Anonymous 9 August 2014 01:26

Man you're living in the past. Firefox has had non-XUL plugins for y many popular addons have made the switch.

Also, why use Chromium if you're concerned about Chrome? T same underlying engine. It's still basically the same browser.

Moonchild 8 August 2014 19:53

Some good concerns voiced there, Robert. Unfortunately for the current stat it seems "a little too later" unless they are willing to actually make concess tying in with their main investor (being Google). I mean the full integration of currently in Firefox. Geolocation, Safebrowsing, WebM/VP9 and YouT Chrome-parity. Chrome UI, etc. etc. Firefox isn't really a good alternative i state.

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Robert 8 August 2014 20:18

Google is not an investor in Mozilla. We have a contract where they deliver search traffic to them.

Google offers some services to us that are good for the Web and go users, so we use them. Google offers other things that we don't b good for the Web or our users --- e.g. WebP, Dart, PNaCl --- and we those; instead we try to come up with better alternatives (mozjpe asm.js).

Lesnik 8 August 2014 22:11

Perhaps it is no 100% direct influence, but you can not deny th offers you "solutions and help" and for many of these suggestion thankful and implement them.

As i wrote at the bottom, stop accepting and implementing this su go back to the core what you have been in the past before Google money.. A browser from Geeks, for Geeks!

Thomas Løcke 8 August 2014 22:16

I wish Mozilla would embrace Dart. It's a great piece of techno solves a lot of the crap that is JS.

My company is developing a _very_ large web-application using D runs *perfectly* in both Firefox and Chrome, which are the targetted for the application. Developing in Dart is a much more pleasant a say it, mature experience, compared to the utter mess that is JS.

If Mozilla embrace Dart, I'm certain the dart2js transpiler will bec better. Please don't dismiss this great language due to a NIH compl

Marco Zehe 8 August 2014 20:44

One item where Mozilla is still way ahead, and which becomes more and mo as the world's population gets older, is accessibility. As long as we lead in and continue to do so, we'll always have a say in where the web platform Evidence like this chart http://www.html5accessibility.com/#wbdetails prove on the right track, and have been for years. Also, this review from a deaf- Firefox for Android shows that we're having a real impact on pe http://chrishofstader.com/testing-android-a-deaf-blind-perspective/ 20 percent of the world's population have some form of disability, and being this field is key to Mozilla's success, IMO.

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michael 9 August 2014 02:46

Accessibility and helping people feel safe online are great areas to Many people still struggle to understand how to use the web and s understand when visiting certain sites exposes risks for identity theft.

Matt Perry 8 August 2014 21:16

Mozilla stole IE marketshare by building a better browser. Google stole Fi marketshare by building a better browser. Rather than writing negative, scar blog posts, maybe, y'know...

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Anonymous 9 August 2014 06:51

Anonymous 8 August 2014 21:48

We stopped using and promoting Firefox when they decided not to impleme This technology was the key for offline usage. IndexedDB never was an alter Sad after all...

Lesnik 8 August 2014 21:49

Using Firefox? I rather would use Seamonkey or Pale Moon because this 2 b withoug Google influence.

As long as you guys have Google on board and let them allow to dictate y have to implement and remove (Australis-customization) Firefox will neve choice anymore!

Why in the hell did you first get involved with Google at all?

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Lesnik 8 August 2014 21:56

Anyway as long as you try to be like Google i only can recommend i know to use a different browser.

You Mozila guys have practically abandoned your state as Geek br have got involved with Google in the hope that their design and lim customization - what brings them a massive success - will bring boost.

What happens? Your share shrinks, you get desperate! Simple Make the Chrome like parts optional - bring back customization, acc that being a so called Geek browser was what kept you healthy!

Do yourself a favor and get sane again Mozilla!

Tony Mechelynck 10 August 2014 14:38

SeaMonkey and Palemoon both are Gecko browser. Measured s each of them has only a negligible market share. With “inclusive” they contribute to Mozilla's market share. So far so good.

What do you mean with “having Google on board”? The defa engine? You don't have to keep it. I have so many search engine (all, or almost all, from addons.mozilla.org and mycroft.mozdev.org search pulldown is maybe four times my screen height; yet the o use really often are the English Wikipedia, the Wikipedia in language, and the Mozillazine knowledge base. In the rare ca Google would be a better fit than these three, I have Bing, DuckDu a few others, which allow me not to be dependent on Google…

Menachem wuz here 8 August 2014 22:20

There worst thing is how unstable it is. Google's Nexus tablet running Goog using Google's Chrome connected to the net with blazing fast fiber, e Google's Google and Google's YouTube, and Google's Chrome constantly crashes. Amateur hour in the coding department. Useless fools.

Brent W. 8 August 2014 22:35

Lame post. "We're not Google" is the lamest elevator pitch ever. Chrom Firefox because Mozilla lost direction and stopped producing anything new, i useful to differentiate itself. Mozilla didn't learn much from internet explorer don't stand on your part achievements and expect that to carry you forward with the Web you don't. I don't know what went wrong with Mozilla but its definitely self inflicted. FUD against Google don't change that.

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Lesnik 8 August 2014 22:45 They may not be Google, but Mozilla is more then enough influ them, so calling against Google is equal with calling for suicide help

And yes, if the Mozilla devs would still go a real independent w would be much more brighter as they are right now....

It is just so sad

tcaudilllg 12 August 2014 19:04

The entire purpose of this post is to rally us in anticipation of Google review this fall. It's a power ploy with us as the pawns. They are go us as bargaining chips to keep Google on board with them. All no are anti-Microsoft, but that's the only thing they have in comm diverge into pro-Google and anti-Google camps, and Google rea What Google really wants is to transform anti-Microsoft sentim bi-polar business axis a la the left and right wings in politics. T browsers, two bases of uncontested power. The purpose of Google's scheme is to depotentiate the one thing Google fears potential of a truly free and open market, that thing which Firefo necessarily Mozilla) symbolizes. Google will prop Mozilla up for a w as they continue the process of consolidating their power, lest th break for Apple. Make Firefox more and more annoying, more deve user unfriendly, less and less appealing compared to shiny, polished The whole intention is to marginalize the people who can reall difference. That's what this is all about.

Brent W. 8 August 2014 22:52

Also, Firefox has been little more than Google's neutered lapdog for years know Mozilla is for all intents and purposes a wholly owned subsidiary of give us a break. You are too Google. You're just the feelgood "nonprofit" bra is addicted to Google money like crack. Get clean and then come bac discussion.

Lesnik 8 August 2014 23:20

Here another bothering thing.

You constantly repeat that Australis was made in earlier years at lest the and Google took it.

Why in the hell do you implement it then too? Having 2 similar works arou point it is not important who made it first and owns the idea - it is importan else is implementing it first you have to do different! So this argument of yours is worth ZERO!

-You lie about Australis -You lie about Brendan Eich -You lie about Mozillas relationship towards Google

How about saying the truth? Brings you much more positive emotions, beca the chance that people could understand your dilemma - If one tells the trut more willing to use a product - no matter if the competition owns the com product more or less!

So... It would be a revolution if Mozilla would from now on say the truth ins behind words and self created clouds!

Anonymous 8 August 2014 23:52

How very, very sad. Perhaps if you concentrated in making a better browse pathetic propaganda, you'd win back the market share. Mozilla jumped the ago, and deserves to languish in relative obscurity unless they get their c and refocus on user experience instead of bloat.

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Robert 9 August 2014 00:02

I know this is a troll, but in case it's not obvious, I spend somewha 1% of my time writing blog posts and most of the rest working day to improve Firefox.

tcaudilllg 12 August 2014 19:16

Only from your perspective. Your partnership with Google has tarn product. Next time Buddy Holly sees fit to lecture HTML 5 fan importance of high security around CANVAS, remind him t vulnerabilities didn't even exist until the high res timer was intro (That's Google saying, "gotcha!") Not that I really telling you this w difference... your logic is transparent: you're just on until Moz no l money, and then, you're gone. Pity that the greatest open source history is reduced to this... but that's what money does. Gee isn reason why Moz was created as a volunteer project in the first weaken the influence of dollars?

Reply Anonymous 9 August 2014 01:04

How about instead of trying to scare people with FUD, you start innovating ag

The reason Firefox was popular in the early days was because it w improvement over IE. It was safer, it had more features, etc. Firefox inn brought users to the browser.

Lately Firefox hasn't done much except watch Chrome steamroll past it. Google for building a product people want, instead develop a product people It's call competition for a reason. If you aren't competing you have no right t not to use Chrome.

As a software engineer I'm appalled that someone would try to get people their own product with excuses such as 'Google is bad' instead of trying to i own product. Innovate and you'll get people using Firefox again.

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tcaudilllg 12 August 2014 19:19

Dude, I don't want to see their innovations. There are builds aro strip out half their "innovations" and reduce the browser bloat by 2/ were innovative... Google App-ripoffs that can't access the local fil aren't.

Anonymous 9 August 2014 04:29

Hey, you should take a look at where Mozilla gets over 90% of its fundin ironic)

VD 9 August 2014 05:26

Sorry, Robert. I was a longtime Firefox and Firebird user, and I dropped it a affair. So did about 10 percent of the readers of my million+ monthly pag And we're never coming back.

I realize it's not your fault, but Mozilla as an entity chose its side and it isn't m of my readers. You'll have to look to the gay community to save you fro because we're never coming back.

el Kabong 9 August 2014 05:43 Is Brendan Eich back yet? No?

Chrome it is...

Anonymous 9 August 2014 06:01

Not using a browser because of the beliefs of one person at an organization not to mention hypocritically intolerant.

I don't like Firefox because the refresh page button is in a weird inconv instead of in the top left with the back button like it should be.

Luckily, the main point was to not use Chrome and that can be done w Firefox.

John Foliot 9 August 2014 06:13

1) the option to comment here using my Google account - well the irony isn't 2) I'll take this opportunity to make (yet again) a pitch for better, more robust yes, you know I'm going to say it... @longdesc in the UI. Trust me when I sa that will win you a lot of fans in the accessibility community, not so much bec will need and want to use @longdesc every day of their week, but a concerte and then taking action would be viewed quite favorably. To best win the heart = listening - carefully - to what the street has to say. (Either that, or I am tal my hat, which of course is totally possible as well.)

John Bitme 9 August 2014 07:14

Dear Mozillans: I wish I could be nicer, I really do. I remember Phoenix and F that you're sincere. The problem is that you've bought into your own hype, a "Mozilla aims to do good" with "Mozilla can do no bad".

Dismissing dissenting opinions as trolls will not bring back the massive amo will you burned by enabling the SJWs. The people who talk and the people do work are two entirely different groups and you sided with the wrong one. resign in protest over Eich? I guess principles aren't that important at Mozilla

You also seem to have a massively inflated sense of your own importa privacy features did Mozilla actually pioneer? It wasn't private browsing instead Mozilla jumped on the DNT bandwagon and decided to bloat request with a useless header, while every sane person was screaming "don retarded". It made good headlines in the media though. There is a very simple reason I use Chrome to develop: it works. From the the profiler to the rendering performance to the feature quality. It's been years. Despite that, I do the majority of my browsing in Safari, because desktop browser that has followed into the tablet age.

While everyone's banging on about HTML5 and how web applications are go amazing, nobody seems to have noticed that most HTML5 APIs like We pathetic little sandboxes that bear no resemblance to a professional worksta API. Not that it matters, since Firefox's implementation is still broken and you move beyond the trivial "music visualizer from the 90s" use case.

Or what about asm.js? Mozilla's answer to the future of performance on th embrace a massively inefficient hack. Don't worry, we won't tell Epic's exe WebGL is 10 years out of date, they can't tell baked-in lighting from real-time

The past 10 years, we've replaced Flash's zippy vendor lock-in with ... HTM chunky vendor lock-in. Go team.

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pbuxton 11 August 2014 02:05

Thank you for posting this reply.

Anonymous 9 August 2014 08:34

Cant stand Mozilla's sanctimonious attitude towards anything native or pro web sucks but Mozilla just wants to keep it the same instead of makin platform that is meant for building apps.

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Anonymous 9 August 2014 10:50

Amen... at least Google is working towards something better.

Anonymous 9 August 2014 10:49

Can someone please explain to me how and why Google is this big bad everyone should be afraid of? Google is a great company that has to do bad in order to be so good. Reply

damaged justice 10 August 2014 01:43

A pox on both Google and Mozilla. Unacceptable for technical and many ot Sticking with Opera 12 and Lynx. 99% of the WWW needs to die.

Hervé 10 August 2014 03:40

Hi Robert, I translated this article to French on http://mozillazine-fr.org/choisissez-f plus-tard-vous-naurez-plus-le-choix/

Daveyk 10 August 2014 04:00

The problem with moving to Firefox is that Mozilla is in the process of alie their power users by removing customisation from the browser (one of Fi strengths), and have implemented a UI which looks strikingly similar to Chro in fact seem to be doing everything to make Firefox an irrelevant brow different by design, it looks just like Chrome and is becoming more and m Mozilla rip out all the functionality which set Firefox apart.

I was a long-time Firefox user since it was Firebird 0.6, but with "Austr dropped Firefox and removed it from my PC. Don't worry, I've not moved to yet, but Mozilla have lots of work to do as at the moment, they are actively their own demise and irrelevance.

Callahoun 10 August 2014 04:22

As long as you refuse to talk to guys like us in an open way, asking for u again.. you want to be kidding me?

Tell your head honchos to visit us here and give us a reason why you dislik so much!

I really hope God and Jesus Christ forgive all of your sins and bring you b the light and the only right side!

Amen!

Thomas Costick 10 August 2014 21:33 Heartily agree with this post. I switched from Chrome to Firefox in early 201 (Windows / Linux) and on my Android devices. Firefox does everything I well as Chrome, AND IT'S NOT GOOGLE... that was my reason for the switc

I use Gmail and Google Docs, but that doesn't mean I have to use "all things

I actively do not use Google whenever there is a viable alternative.

Syn 12 August 2014 01:52

Firefox has many trivial bugs lurking for years (id 307866: 9 years, 140562 and 410959 for 6 years).

The most dramatic example of the difference in performance between Chrome is with the use of animate() JQuery to enlarge a bit a thumbnail Chrome it is perfectly fluid, very fast, with Firefox it's slow to the point of bein After extensive optimization and optimized Firefox configuration, the solution css transition, Firefox was more fluid but always less than Chrome, with difference fps with the naked eye (on this point, Firefox is even worse than IE

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tcaudilllg 12 August 2014 19:26

I couldn't care less if it's not as fast as Chrome when doing someth third-party library. At least it still lets you access the local file principle.

Syn 12 August 2014 21:43

The user experience is not important when a website use a third pa ? What is the difference between a third party library and a persona In both case the code is written to run as fast as possible on all brow maybe jQuery sucks and is not popular, so let's forget this example.

I just don't understand why today Firefox is the only browser tha support the property "min-height" on tables, see bug 307866, 977929 for an example with jsfiddle, reported this year again. 9 ye has been reported, and we still need to use a workaround *only* for

Even in the "Examples" section in mozilla docu (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/min-height) it since 2007 to use "min-height: 75%;" on a table! But it doesn't wo Firefox (see http://jsfiddle.net/47n24eqk/). What irony, it's probably s that is should work like other browsers.

Vladan D 13 August 2014 09:06 Hi Syn, my name is Vlad, I work on the Firefox performance team ask you to link to a test case of some kind showing bad Firefox pe with jQuery animate() when resizing an image? I'd like to look Thanks

Syn 14 August 2014 22:15

Hello Vlad, it's not so easy to create a test page. I think that Fi lagging and it was visible thanks to jQuery animate. jQuery animate lag in an isolated case. When I was testing today, it lagged only so think that today the garbage collector was the source of the lag (it w lag during 2 seconds).

Few months ago, the lag was permanent in our application. I integrate more components from our application to the test page i try to reproduce the permanent lag (the slow jquery animation) tha in Firefox. I will come back to you when it's ok.

Vladan D 15 August 2014 08:48

Thank you! I also tried reproducing the issue by using jQuery an resize a PNG by manipulating its "width" property and I couldn' differences vs Chrome. GC could be to blame -- we're actually working on a project to prevent GC interfering with certain types animations. Let me know what you find!

Vladan D 15 August 2014 08:51

This is the very simple test page I used http://people.mozilla.o /jquery_animate.html

Anonymous 12 August 2014 23:58

When I first install Firefox, the first screen shows me ... Google.

How can you promote Google and in the same time explain that Google is ev

Anonymous 13 August 2014 22:03

I've been using Firefox for a long, long time. And I was using also Thund were my basic tools for work. I even had written few plugins for them, becau find anything else. But... In one point something happened to Firefox. Simple and repetitiv minutes - opening tab, switching between tabs, multiple tabs... Firefox was horror on my work laptop. Reinstalation? Clear install without any exten Nothing worked. Was lagging as hell. So I've tried Google Chrome. And gue was fast as it used to be in Firefox.

But, in Chrome I couldn't find any extensions that could help in my work, th couldn't find them for Firefox. Well, so I had to write them again for myself what? No freaking Xul! No hell of xml-like formating. HTML and js. Eve Firefox was written in days. Every extension for Chrome was written in hours

And finally - this glorious information Mozilla had published one day - Thund going to be further developed. Yes, great marketing decision. So I switched t attention - I didn't use it UNTIL you dropped Thunderbird. I had multiple emails and one client for them with ongoing development of it. Now? I hav account, where I collect all emails from those third party services.

I've abandoned Mozilla. And I'm not planning to go back. Google Chrom works for me.

I don't really care how much Google will find out about me from analysing and pages I browse. I'm not a celebrity, I'm not a spy, I'm not even in posse valuable informations. So - what are they going to do worse? Offer me adve something that I actually would buy? (Of course if somehow they will ov Ghostery and few other options).

Google being new Microsoft? Maybe. So what? What is wrong with this? G make this because in some void Great Demiurg said "Let Google be winni They are winning because the offer services that are working.

If you want to Firefox be over the top - beat all this with quality and ma everything that makes Google leader. Not by actions like this post - "Go Firefox is good! Use Firefox! Please or else it'll be really bad! Because we says it'll be really bad if you dont use Firefox!".

Sorry, I was Mozilla enthusiast. I'm not anymore. And I won't be. At one p me, and now You don't have anything to win me again. Although - I'm no can easilly get over it.

willemdax 14 August 2014 08:09

As we all know Skynet, the super AI from the future that will take over the wo war against all remaining humans will spawn out of Google :D (no, really...seriously) :D Seriously though, check out my post that is related to this post. I hope blogg me to put a link here http://willemdax.wordpress.com/2014/04/11/uninstall-fire

Interesting that you rage against Google yet you use blogger which is owned have nothing against Google I do like Chrome a lot plus other services from use WordPress :-)

Robert 14 August 2014 09:37

You may or may not know that Google was officially against Proposition 8, i.e pro-gay-marriage.

You may or may not know that "the governing board of the widely used brow forced the company’s CEO, Brendan Eich, to resign" has been denied by th no evidence to the contrary has emerged.

You may or may not know that the vast majority of Mozilla employees (es since I feel very close to Brendan) supported Brendan as CEO.

It's understandable that you wouldn't know these things, since the mainstrea not report them. But be careful when using mainstream media as fuel for you

Anonymous 14 August 2014 12:02

You talk of the dangers of monopolies and the importance of choice. Quit Mozilla and Brendan showed in their response to Dart that they wants to javascript engine monopoly.

All the arguments about yes, it's open source, but the effort of supporting c much and would give Google an advantage - are exactly the same argum say wouldn't it be easier if there was only one browser.....

The web is being held back by the javascript engine - Google are right something that needs to be improved radically. Whether Dart is the solution the point, the Mozilla needs to base it's decisions based on technical merit belief in one true engine.

If you believe in Javascript as the best technical solution - then make it win better - not trying to take you ball home.

You are right to worry about large companies, you are also right to sa individuals are acting honestly and honourably. Where your wrong is individuals as if they were the company - rather than reaching out and workin

I don't work for any of these companies - I'm just a developer that wants to get better and see Mozilla find it's mojo again - that means thinking abou developers first and foremost.

Replies Robert 14 August 2014 12:44

> If you believe in Javascript as the best technical solution > - then make it win by making it better

That's exactly what we are doing. Supporting Dart would force u resources from improving JS. Why fork and have two engines whe keep making one engine, the one that is standardized and already to run the Web, better?

> that means thinking about users and developers first and foremos

That's what we do! Don't mistake this blog post for any kind of investment.

Anonymous 15 August 2014 12:04

Perhaps because the javascript engine is getting close to being as can be, perhaps all the cruft in javascript isn't a stable foundation t for the next twenty years, perhaps because sometimes in orde forward, you have to leave things behind.

I think it's fine for Mozilla to make a choice not to work on it now - may not prove itself to be a worthy addition or successor. But th block and belittle the experiment from people who are genuinely make the web better is poor in my view.

Dart wasn't the main thrust of the post - it was an example of beh seeing from some Mozilla people which I don't like - seeing the wo than the best in people, being narrow minded rather than brave...

Maybe that's unfair, I don't know but it's the perception I'm getting. wrong.

Brendan Eich 16 August 2014 09:22

Anonymous, why don't you identify so we can talk on equal footin care whether you work for Google or just swallow their spin, I'm ju for real names for a change. I've tangled with socks on HN enough

Your comments here paint me as *the* big-bad, a role that all the S to cram me into since late March this year, so I'll bristle briefly. B that, consider the unreality of your complaint: Big-Bad me kept po Google from using Mozilla on top of its own market power to d exactly, pray tell?

Ram DartVM as well as a JS VM into all browsers, starting with very high opportunity cost to a Google competitor? And thereb Safari and IE to ram or reverse-engineer DartVM into their engines? You realize this entails a cycle collector or equivalent, something M had for many years? See Chrome's OilPan.

Big-bad me stopped all this, and poor widdle Google couldn't ge rapidly adopted among well-funded competitors MS and Apple? Rea

What rubbish.

Concretely, I was negative about Dart when it "debuted" becau leaked via this two-faced memo: http://markmail.org/thread/uro3jtoitlmq6x7t

FYI, I was at the Nov 2010 Apple-hosted Ecma TC39 (JS) standard where I saw Mark Miller turn white as a sheet because he had ina posted this memo to a public Caja google group. He walked over Googler and stage-acting tapped him on the shoulder, and they de the hallway. Soon other Googlers were leaving the meeting to urgently in the hall. Some of us wondered: Has Sergey ina launched the Singularity ahead of schedule? Has Larry canceled fre at Google?

Only months later did I realize what had happened. The mes instantly forwarded through archives including markmail.org. Mark not the author of the "Dash memo", just the fall guy. He was skeptic from the beginning. Another friend of mine at Google apprised m early on, saying it would become a $100M crater.

I was skeptical because I can smell Microsoft-ian spin a mile out should too. The Dash memo was rife with conflicts of interest. JS " has fundamental flaws that cannot be fixed merely by evolving the l so poor widdle Google had to do a new language and VM.

This set up an obvious "starve V8" path that was reified soon by Go remoties" rule, as Aarhus became at best an "on your own time while the new V8 team in Munich was staffed and set up to climb th curves.

Double-talk against JS looks very bad in this light: if Google b ECMAScript Harmony, they could have invested in JS harder an Dart, or at least made a better dart2js target language. JS could bignums by now!

This is a real issue for Dart programmers. See https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=1533#c57 and prior comments. Dart2js forked Dart's numeric tower from D purpose. It has been four years plus since "Dash" started in ealrier?!). Why has not Google worked diligently to get bignums into

But I see you don't just try to smear me about Dart. I'm the Bigges who kept poor widdle Google from forcing other stuff, presuma Client, down the throats of competing browser implementors.

Again, what a crock!

PNaCl is now marketed by Google with reference to Emscripten/a Pepper.js as a parallel second toolchain to use to target other brows this is failing, as Epic, Unity, and others all prefer one toolchain: E targeting asm.js. Google is simply failing in slow motion here, an me is the just lame.

(If Google wants me to help them standardize PNaCl or Dart, they to reach me. I'm unemployed, so it will cost them, and I make no gu But I can do a much better job than they have so far.)

Brendan Eich 16 August 2014 09:23

Part 2:

The complaints about JS are mostly obvious and fair: no threads, too much mutability so it's hard to optimize.

But the solutions are obvious and fair too: SIMD in ES7 (coming fa to Google's John McCutchan, Intel folks, and Mozilla); threads via data-race array buffer shared among a new kind of web worker th DOM access; and ES6 and 7 features in JS that enable opt designed into Dart.

Ultimately, by splitting JS via V8 from Dart via DartVM, Google per doomed game theory setup: DartVM needs JS to stagnate or h walls, while other browser vendors open to AOT as well as JIT op and open to JS evolution via the Harmony agenda, could move forward faster, via shorter evolutionary hops.

This approach wins for PNaCl too, wherefore the r Emscripten/asm.js/Pepper.js path.

My advice: stop blindly lashing out at people, and pay attention to th governing the bodies in motion. We're all in fields of force whose e (or thermodynamics if you prefer -- same thing) that favor evolution "REPLACE" agendas with DartVM and PNaCl/Pepper.

Anyway, I'm gone from Mozilla, and still no DartVM or Pepper sup to blame now? Talk to Apple and Microsoft people if you n convincing. Or else take off the sock and come clean, and if you the climb-down, join the Evolution.

/be

Reply Anonymous 15 August 2014 04:53

Mozilla needs to provide people with a complete, preferably integrated privacy. At a minimum, that includes a clear, concise write-up of what to everything I know, including blocking local stored objects, but they still track Of course, having a fixed IP address doesn't help.

I know it's not easy, but it's a lot easier for Mozilla than for individuals.

Anonymous 16 August 2014 10:05

Hey Robert

Sad to see you spreading this much FUD. If Google really wanted to lock c why would they stop at hangouts and docs. Why not make maps, gmail an else Chrome only. Oh and by the way, i think when Apple announced iwork they left Firefox off their list of supported browsers.

Aleks Totic 16 August 2014 10:45

I've always had a soft spot for Mozilla. I want you guys to stay competitive. a clearly superior browser. You are almost at parity for my browsing habi there, frequent updates. My pet peeves: - lack of print preview, lets me save paper. - developer tools: I grew up with Firebug, which is getting depreciated. Chrom are closest thing to what Firebug was, so I use that. Still finding my way arou dev tools. - site compatibility: I've had problems with certain sites not working in FF r has not been the case for a long time. My guess is that since many web switched to Chrome, sites are not tested in FF as often. That is why you n the best development tools. In general, I've felt that the Firefox OS push has made you not focus as m desktop experience. I am confident you can build a better browser if you foc do consider you a leader in JS. Crossing my fingers that Servo will blow me away one day

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Robert 16 August 2014 11:05

Thanks.

What platform are you on? I thought some form of print preview exi platforms. Windows and Linux have built-in print preview, and on preview launches the PDF viewer. Reply

Mac. Hence the native print preview not being good enough. I remove pag almost every time I print, and that takes an extra

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