T.ontllnS-Bsd'ie^

^•magine the scene a few hundred were interviewed separately, their com­ do docu-dramas. I think there is a lot of %/ odd yejirs from now when hungry, ments have been editorially juxtaposed confusion as to what a docu-drama is. «"^ back-stabbing anthropologists root by subject To me, docu-drama is a dramatic rec­ through the shameful debris of late reation of an actual event Specific as to twentieth century Canada in desperate Cinema Canada: Who decides what time, locale, participants. Most of the search of the mythical southern border. program will go into production ? (unsolicited) submissions I get lead me Imagine the elation if, along the way, one Inside John Kennedy: Basically I decide on to think that there is an awful lot of of them scores various reels of 3Smm film the individual piece within the drama thinking that leans toward a lot more stashed in the seedy projection booth of schedule. But that springs from a series docu than drama, and that doesn't in­ some fossilized Rosedale mansion. The of offers that I make to the program of­ terest me very much. I think you have to find would be hotter than the Boy Prince's fice at the CBC each year I offer them for take steps to be sure the issue doesn't tomb until the lights went down and the example, a sitcom, a Home Fires, three override the drama. It gets preachy for scientific community was assaulted by CBC or four movies for television, perhaps a one thing boring for another. trailers from Prom Night, Death Ship, specific series. Terror Train, Pinball Summer, Hot Cinema Canada: Is there a system Dogs, and that seminal Canadian opus, Cinema Canada: Do producers com­ whereby unsolicited material is Meatballs. By the second reel change pete for these slots ? screened at the CBC? most would be gagging in agreement: John Kennedy: In effect, yes. But we John Kennedy: Yes, it is all read, all the southern border was indeed mythic­ develop more than one proposal per responded to, but it is not all criticized al Drama slot. Things have a way of falling apart, There's just too much of it. There are not The fact is, our drearily non-Canadian or being delayed. We shoot either tape too many unsolicited scripts which ever film industry sheds very little light upon There is much to examine or film every week of the year and if you see the light of day (get produced). It the life, values and concerns of the miss a date you get a blank on air which, often surprises me though that many Cemadian people in the 1980s. It pro­ within our television industry, of course, is immediately filled by buying people who want to write for television duces few examples of what could be something from somewhere. I don't seldom watch it. For a writer not to useful^ as a record of our culture, and but part of the difficulty want to see that happen because it is an analyze the people or kinds of things little feature film drama of any perma­ opportunity lost for Canadian writers, currently being done (on television) is a nent value. is the simple fact that dfrectors, performers and musicians. mistake. On the other hand- strange as it may seem — Canadian drama produced for its inner workings are not Cinema Canada: What is the evolu­ here is much truth to Kennedy's television is an entirely different matter. publicly exposed. tion of a script at the CBC? comment. Too many writers see Programming in recent years has been JeanRoberts: A producer brings it to r television as a bastard art, some­ watched, yes, actually viewed, and large either John Kennedy or myself If the thing to consider if one is in need of quick percentages of these viewers have been by John Kent Harrison idea is interesting and if the story has an cash to grubstake the "important novel" increasingly impressed with both the end then maybe we'll develop it. At that There is a tendency to overlook the sophisticated dramatic consfructs and point the producer goes into cahoots ground rules of the medium - the the degree to which programs attempt public whipping boy, the Canadian Broad­ with a writer, and possibly a story editor, camera, the microphone, the station to reflect the specific cultural, moral casting Corporation, seems especially to develop a story which has a begin­ break, and that ephemeral audience and social tenor of our tremulous times. appropriate. The following is a series of ning middle and an end And the begin­ teeter-tottering precariously between But what is Canadian television interviews with several key personsilities ning must be so created that you are the "Canadian" show and... the alte^ drama ? What is the role of the public behind programs being produced at the going to hook your audience with the native. A potential writer would be sector {CBC), the private sector, the in­ CBC Drama Department in Toronto, first 25 seconds, In a sense television is wise not to underestimate the remark­ dependent producer? Who decides including; John Kennedy, Head, CBC to theatre as variety or burlesque is to able degree of craft it takes to hook and what will be produced and/or aired? Drama Department; Jean Roberts, Di­ the stage: you no sooner get to center hold an audience and yet still deliver How does one break into this happily rector of Program Development and stage when you have to hook your something meaningful in the way of "Canadian" arena? Production (Drama Department); Sam audience. character, plot and socio-political rele­ And then there are the myths, es­ Levene, Executive Producer, For the vance. pecially about the CBC. There's that old Record series; Larry Mirkin, Producer, Cinema Canada: HoW many drafts It is interesting to observe how pro­ favorite : "CBC producers produce what Coming Out Alive, Phoenipc Team; of a script are thire ? ducers approach this conundrum. they think the Canadian public should Robert Sherrin, Executive Producer, Jean Roberts: Three official drafts Some are committed to message and Home Fires. Though these individuals be watching." That is, CBC as guardian but there can be more, maybe less; but relevance above all else : the issue, the angel, watchdog against cultural de­ it also depends on the make-up of the problem, the cause. Who dares count pravity. Yet with one capricious flick of writer. A writer may have done ten the number of somnolent journalistic the wrist, snow-bound and entertain­ drafts at his desk but will hand in the "dramas" we have been subjected to ment-starved Canadians tune in to per^ eleventh as his first draft due to his own over the years: programs which were verted gibberish. Faced with this kind of standards and self-censorship. All three good for us, programs we should have competition, "shoulds" go the way of of the drafts come through this office watched. Then there are the producers bilingual street signs in Calgary. Or do (Kennedy and Roberts), so when you who are slaves to form: make'em laugh) they ? multiply all projects by three you have make' em cry, make' em wait. Don't bore There is much to examine within the an idea of the volume of material which the audience, get to the point, keep it complex of our television industry but comes through here. moving: entertainment as the primary part of the difficulty in this pursuit is the vehicle of communication. simple fact that its inner workings are Cinema Canada: Do you cancel not publicly exposed. Its producers by scripts when you see something not Cinema Canada: Is there a split at and large are not part of the glamour worldng ? the CBC between the issue-oriented and tinsel scene : the pay is so minimal Jean Roberts: That could be done producers and the entertainers as to that normally gregarious free-lance but I cannot say that I've seen that hap their lack of concern or overconcern contributors are forced to work full- pening often in the sense of it having for audience gratification ? time all the time in shabby innei^city been imposed from this office. I find Jean Roberts: I think what happens digs, with no time to blow a horn in that there is a healthy atmosphere on perhaps, from time to time, is that defense of their medium. this floor which John (Kennedy) has en­ people get so involved in issues that At a time when the cultural content in gendered, and that is that producers they forget that a story is not a useful feature films- or lack of it- is raising so themselves will tend to come along and story on television unless it is dramatic many questions, an examination of the say that there is no point going on with Truth is not necessarily dramatic. attitudes behind productions currently something. being broadcast by that convenient Cinema Canada: What is the inten­ Cinema Canada: Do you get much tion of making For the Record drama ? unsolicited material ? Sam Levene: As executive producer • Head of CBC-TV Drama, John Kennedy John Kennedy: Yes. For example, I John Kent Harrison is a screenwriter and filmmaker photos; Fred Phipps of For the Record, I have a particular living in Toronto. get a lot of submissions from people to bias. For me, the drama has to 1*

16/Cinema Canada- July 1981 These producers are prepared to say that self- loathing, flag-waving and SB-Xare Canadian exercises of the past.

relevant; that is, drama on a public broadcasting system has a responsibility to do more than entertain. It must also challenge and provoke audiences. I'm talking about television drama on a public broadcasting system, the CBC. Part of its drama, and I'm not saying all of it, must be serious, must examine Canada today in a dramatic way and have something to say about issues.

Cinema Canada: How do you ap­ proach a story ? Do you begin with an issue or problem, or does someone come in with a story? Sam Levene: More often than not, we begin with an issue. The first script I Cinema Canada: H7iat in your mind In fiction, truth is expressed in a dra­ history irj the vyay that the English, for commissioned three years ago had to do is the distinction between what you are matic action. It goes all the way back to instance, have. There is a huge area yet with unemployment in Canada {The doing in For the Record and the con­ Aristotle. If your work is important and to be explored. As opposed to say, the Winnings ofFrankie Walls written by cept known as docu-drama ? meaningful, it does not necessarily Great Defective which is simply set in a Hob Forsyth). But we didn't produce the Sam Levene: I can't get anybody who mean it must be dull and unentertain- period, we are exploring in Home Fires program until over a year later, until we writes about television in this country to ing On the contrary, the most important the social/historical background, and it had a workable script that was not a refer to this series without calling us the thing is not to underestimate the audi­ becomes part of the thread of the nar­ tract, not a documentary, not a docu- CBCs docu-drama series. What we are ence. The audience is very smart but rative and it goes in chronological order drama, but a drama about a middle- doing is total fiction, pure drama. The very impatient. The audience is willing through an historical period. The drama aged worker who loses his job and can't docu-drama is a dramatic recreation of to watch you if you play fair with them reflects and illuminates that time in get work because he hasn't the proper a true story as it happened, using for the and you keep them interested. I think much the same way as I suppose Up­ updated skills. That drama stands on its most part, real characters, and real those are perfectly legitimate demands. stairs Downstairs does: in that it (the own, but it began with an is^ue. names. What we do is simply contem­ social history) becomes part of the fabric porary, topical drama which is issue- Cinema Canada: What are the pitfalls of the story. Cinema Canada: What precautions oriented. of issue-oriented drama? do you take to be sure that the issue Larry Mirkin: Mainly, the problem is Cinema Canada r How was the pro­ does not dominate the story? Cinema Canada: What makes drama that you can't get out of the reality, ject conceived ? Sam Levene; We've been accused of interesting for you ? especially if you want to make a point Robert Sherrin : We started with the precisely what you've said. But partly it Larry Mirkin: The things which are about the issue; you can't deal with the idea that we were going to explore the comes down to the quality of your most interesting for me, have always people as people and let them drive the World War II period, and that we were writers, story editors and producers to had to do with the moral center of the story. If you have to cover the issue, it going to explore it through a family make sure that doesn't happen. Some­ piece, the moral dilemmas the charac­ often makes the story predictable, and situation. This enabled us to get per­ times we do let the issue get buried if a ters are put into, whether it is the predictability is boring to an audience. sonal over it, because I think the best strong drama develops. It is a natural strange moral universe of Coming Out Fiction is an imaginative construct and historical drama is always done through dangerspot when you do issue-oriented Alive, where you end up. rooting for the reality can make it more difficult by individual personalities that the audi­ social drama. We develop a script the people you wouldn't normally root for, locking down the imagination by the ence can enjoy and relate to. In this way same way anybody else develops a or the Phoeniji Team series where we confines of hard fact. It can be done, it the audience can begin to share the ex­ script: concern with dramatic values, had spies who, in terms of characters, has been done well, but it is very dif­ perience of the characters. So we invent with what happens to a character. We tried to deal with a differing moral ques­ ficult characters and place them in a situation are not trying to impose a social message tion in each episode. I don't think people and in a particular environment, then on a stoiy we already have. are born with white hats and black Cinema Canada: What are the prob­ we begin to look at historical events and hats: I think that people who do morally lems of creating a period drama ? what they suggest could happen to the Cinema Canada: What happens when questionable deeds have to account for Robert Sherrin: As this is a country family. Background research material is the facts of the issue go one way and the them - if not to others, then at least to where people have destroyed the past provided right off, a script is written, character you have created wants to go themselves. And that interests me. rather than preserved it, we don't have then further research is done for par­ the other ? Does this happen ? period locations. The thing I'm doing ticular details - for example, to find out Sam Levene; Yes, that does happen. Cinema Canada: Do you see a split {Home Fires) is set in Toronto because what prices, incomes, mortgages were For example, in A Far Cry From Home, a within.the drama department between we can't afford to go anyplace else. In A at that time. study of a battered wife, it was incum­ issue-oriented producers and those Good Place to Come From we looked at bent upon us to be accurate in terms oi who are more concerned with the en­ Sault Ste-Marie but it was devoid of nice Cinema Canada: Some say film is a what we learned about what women go' tertainment value? period locations and we were much director's medium, while TV is a pro­ through in that situation. In another Larry Mirkin: Yes, there's some truth better off trying to reproduce the 1940' s ducer's medium. Do you see TV as a kind of story the exact research might be to that. They shouldn't be mutually Sault in Toronto than we were going to producer's medium ? less important. For example, the drama exclusive because there are two im­ the real place. John Kennedy: No, 1 see television as called A Question of the Sijcth deaU to plications with such a polarity; the the quintessential collaborative medium. some extent with euthanasia, but it was issue-oriented people are dull, the en­ Cinema Canada: What is your in­ The successes we have on the screen also a love story. We went with the love tertainment people are vacuous. I am a terest in this type of drama ? are almost invariably a result of col­ story, with the two strong characters great lover of fiction, and the way fiction Robert Sherrin: I happen to be in­ laboration as opposed to being able to and what was happening between works is different from the way non- terested in social history at this moment, put your finger on one person who them. fiction works, or documentaries work and I think we have rarely done social made the contribution to that project.

July 1981 - Cinema Canada/17 Cinema Canada: What is the res­ Cinema Canada: Do you see CBC ponsibility of a producer ? drama chaining a specific course for Larry Mirkin: Everything. He is the the future ? custodian of the concept. He is the one Robert Sherrin: The kinds of things person who has the creative and fiscal we are tending to do more and more are authority and responsibility. He can l terribly important if the country is to be delegate some of it but he is a fool if he interested in who we are and our OWTI abrogates that responsibility. His chal­ particularidentity. I think we are moving lenge is to find the best way to create the away from carbon copies of American atmosphere where the creative people kinds of programming We don't for the can produce their best work. The budget moment have any more cop shows; is the least important part of producing now maybe that will happen again, but it is easy to learn. The main question hopefully if it does, it would be in a new should always be what do you want to kind of genre which has more to do with do and why. who we are than with who we are not

Cinema Canada: What do you mean Cinema Canada: Isn't there a danger by suggesting the budget is the least in flag-waving Canadian drama ? important part of producing ? Robert Sherrin: I don't mean that Larry Mirkin: Well, it's the least im­ the only thing that matters is that the portant aspect as long as you're on identity of the background be physically budget. What I mean is that there is Canada, but that simple stories of himian a logic to it, you can learn it. Here at the • Finding authentic locations Is often impossible. This W.W. II internment camp was relationships be about ourselves. Every­ CBC we have what are called 'direct specially built for the Wome Fires series thing we do should come out of us; we costs': cast, script, location rental - all should be tedking about people we (the money spent outside the CBC. Then we how we all took a point of view after after all, an audience to which you audience) recognize immediately. have the 'indirecf costs: money spent seeing Stan Colbert's prodigious and broadcast If you were to narrow cast on facilities, personnel and services in­ historically provocative production of you would be appealing to a very limited M^any of us who have watched side the CBC. We try to gets 1/2 minutes Riel, or Robin Spr/s direction of the and distinct kind of audience. Jm/f CBC over the past few years see of finished film a day by attempting 24 turbulent Drying Up the Streets ? Xir C- some paradox in this talk: not set-ups. This varies from 18 to 24 de­ Today when conversation shifts to Cinema Canada: Do you think the all the programs are as articulate pending on how the master shots are dramatic content, talk focuses on tele­ sense of drama at the CBC is more as these producers who create them. staged. I try to have the master staged in vision programs, not films. Feature- sophisticated now than it was a few We could examine a Phoenifc Team such a way that all the close-ups have films are usually discussed in terms of years ago ? episode and find examples of gra­ the same lighting set-up. So you see financial investments - how so-and-so Jean Roberts; Yes I do, and also the tuitous camera movement, exagge^ there is a logic to all of this, but in the got burned on such-and-such a deal In CBC has moved much more into doing ated composition, frenzied editing - end you are simply juggling time and light of this, it would seem that tele­ mainly contemporary work. From the all indicating an attempt to entertain an money in order to protect the integrity vision has begun to forge a significant money and facilities point of view it is audience at the expense of character of the piece. connection with the Canadian viewing a necessary step. Also we eu-e not going credibility, and a detailed socio-political audience. How so ? to be able to find writers unless we force fabric. And we could just as easily review Cinema Canada: What is the role of them to write. What we are saying is The Last Edition {a recent For the Record the producer within the contejct of the Cinema Canada: How have you been that all the airtime ttiat drama has is episode), which had no human or other creative contributors on a par­ able to measure the audience response going to be used up by whoever is psychological dimension, only the ticular project ? to your programming ? writing today. I'm sure that that is prosaic predictability of an issue fol­ Larry Mirkin: Let me give you an John Kennedy: We send a document gradually going to pay off with people lowing its predestined pattern, with example of a prtjducer's role. The vniter, to a list of people very similar to the who are expert at writing television characters as interesting as marionettes editor, director and producer are in the Nielsen system. In the case of our docu­ drama. toting yesterday's news. cutting room. A point comes up for dis­ ment, we will very often ask questions However, there is no shame in admit­ cussion and the editor has fallen in love of the audience as to how the story is ting that an individual show doesn't with the cut, the writer with the line, the told. It is very good feedback. From this Cinema Canada: Do you see trends work as long as the overall attitude dfrector with the shot and the actor, if we have what is called inside the CBC, emerging which might influence the behind programming is on track These he is there, with the behavior. The an enjoyment index (aka; appreciation future of TV drama ? producers are prepared to say that self- producer is the only one who can protect index), which is a measure of how well John Kennedy: I think there is a loathing, flag-waving and SB-X are Cana­ the work He is the who says, I'll live the audience enjoyed the show. It is trend toward anthology work, either in dian exercises of the past; that the with the bad cut if the story works. The normally broken dovm into the major the 60 or 90 or even two-hour form. To a archetypal Canadian hero no longer audience doesn't care about a minor characters, the story, the humour if lesser extent the half-hour format. must struggle against all odds until he technical matter as long as you are there is meant to be any, and the sense Whatever kind of programming we do, or she freezes to death in the snow. Now playing fair with the story. of reality. There have been factors we are in competition with the Ameri­ the CBC is looking for other stories, and which have left the audience less pleased cans. Our series, however, have made be they light-weight adventure or issue- than we would like them to be. We don't particular connections with an audi­ oriented melodrama, all must share a ^^eanwhile, out on the stteet, what want a bad story on the screen - bad ence ; Home Fires and A Gift to Last are common denominator of being dramat­ ^my are crafts people talking about meaning boring too complicated, not examples. I would suspect that sitcom ically solid, respectful of audience, and wr%r in terms of film or television making any sense. Unhappy endings may change. Different forms of comedy unabashedly Canadian. have often resulted in an audience drama ? Ten years ago we were antici­ may be with us in five years. I'm not sure On sure, you can heave a cynical sigh reacting against a program. Unresolved pating King and Shebib, admiring Jutra, if I see sitcoms disappearing totally, but and argue that it's simply the CBC's endings also have a negative effect on looking for Don Owen, Eric Till and I could see it changing into comedy mandate. But is their attitude one which an audience - they like things tied up. others: filmmakers, all Today, with the drama, perhaps taking on a longer form must be legislated to be legitimate ? Is The confusion of mixed genre, like a arteries of our film industry hardening than the half-hour. There is certainly a there not some merit in producing mystery/comedy, will also cause an with coagulated screen gems, we are lot of interest in that within the Cana­ material for today which will endure for audience to back away. turning to television in search of some dian writing community. There are tomorrow, at the very least as a record of kind of artistic transfusion. Now the talk increasing numbers of proposals com­ our time and culture ? is of Vic Sarin's direction and shooting Cinema Canada: Do you think Cana­ ing from people interested in comedy Lef s hope our film community keeps of Katie, Don Brittain's dramatic debut, dians are becoming more receptive to drama. You will also probably see an in­ this in mind and once again starts pro­ why Margaret Atwood should or should Canadian TV drama ? creasing connection with Canadian ducing a body of work which in a few not be writing teleplays. Jean Roberts: Yes, I do feel there are literature, although that is hard to fore­ hundred years will be well worth digging a lot of people who find satisfaction cast in any planned sense. I would think Remember how.we enjoyed the dyna­ for • mism of the Ralph Thomas/R.H. Thomp­ with Canadian TV drama. One reason the movie for TV will continue to be a son combination in the production of for this is that we (CBC) are tiying to strong factor - it s interesting for writers, Tyler, or Jutra's interpretation of B.A relate better to the kind of audience that directors, producers, performers, and Cameron's Dreamspeaker? Remember in fact there should be for TV, which is, also entertaining for an audience.

18/Cinema Canada - July 1981 WHEN IN SOUTHERN CAUFORNIAVISTT NIVERSAL. STUDIOS TOUR AN MCACaWWVUMV LORD GRADE presents A JIM HENSON FILM 'THE GREAT MUPPET CAPER"

VOL. II...NO. 331 -THE GREAT MUPPET CAPER PAPER ©1981. HENSON ASSOCIATES. INC. Muppet.Performers Star! JIM HENSON, FRANK OZ, DAVE GOELZ, JERRY NELSON, RICHARD HUNT, STEVE WHITMIRE i/\Gem Heist Epic! THEFT OT Jl ,iLLED "MERE EXC'SE TO*' OVIE" Combined Sen»f^ •'" "^INL LONDON - ll was re- Experts today w^^t^ lat much of the entire starring as lady Holiday statements altributeH^ ily unaware that The the popular music gf< :^ have somehow become The Electric Mayhi iipm therec^t "caper" that DIANA RIGG new about that," whi the lo "^f a valuable Queen of Haute Couture Miss Louise Gold v^f rckldce — and is li 'o remam so. Kobbed of Fortune in Jewels puzzling expert' '' was a typi- comments "Thank goodness they didn't get 'to "J never my fabulous 'Baseball' diamond," Starring as Nicky Holiday Eics, however, commenled the seemingly unruffled fc've done ev world-famous Fashion Queen. Made to prevent by Kathryn Mullen for Czar Frog CHARLES ' Frith (cont. on page 2) GRODIN Described as "Cute With Guest stars But Slippery" The lew people who wril jdml5 ever having actually met Mr Nick; JOHN CLEESE Holiday, brother of famous and be- jeweled couturiere Lady Hohday, de­ scribe his variously as "a sneak," ROBERT "slippery as an eel," and "som ine MORLEY late Breaking News: PETERI JOE USTINOV RAPOSO Music and lyrics JACK See "Sing Song," page 12 ^smiD WARDEN •niDOLBY STEREOl MORRIS, Bs^ IN SELECTED THEATRES JHrector of Pbotograpby See "Snap Snap," page 17 Movie Writers Hailed RALPH TOM KEMPLEN PATCHETT 'Editor "Cloudy am See "Snip, Snip," page 32 barometer, but a pronOulK»i, Film Directed by front. Hazy areas and patchjf^jlfeijij & JAY TORSES ANITA MANN itig way to gusty periods towa*^i|| JIM HENSON and 'Cboreograpber "Seems to Hate Hand "Caper" Producers Sevealedl ---„-'" "• JERRY JUHL 'See "Happy Feet," page 73 in Everything!" says Frog DAVID LAZER and FRANK OZ Mr. Kermit the Frog, star of tiie & JACK ROSE MARTIN film, was questioned by reporters in Heads of State gathered Itxlay to pay Named by Citizens Group his dressing room today. "If there's tribute lo the small, brave band of STARGER EUREKAj KANSAS - "We know surgeon Mrs. Dr. Eva Mae Newberry one thing 1 can't seem to escape," he men who. armed with but a type­ smiled in answer to an oft-posed iexecutive Producer exactly who was to blame," ex­ of this community. "Used to be of a writer and a dream, changed the face (see "Big Deal," page 112) (see "Henson," page 17) (com. on page 6) |See "Big Bucks," page 3 claimed irate housewife and dental

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July 1981 - Cinema Canada/19