Dáil Éireann

DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COMHCHOISTE UM SHLÁINTE JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH Dé Máirt, 25 Bealtaine 2021 Tuesday, 25 May 2021 Tháinig an Comhchoiste le chéile ag 11.30 a.m. The Joint Committee met at 11.30 a.m. Comhaltaí a bhí i láthair / Members present: Teachtaí Dála / Deputies Seanadóirí / Senators Colm Burke, Frances Black, David Cullinane, Martin Conway, Bernard J. Durkan, Annie Hoey, Neasa Hourigan, Seán Kyne. Gino Kenny, John Lahart, Róisín Shortall, Mark Ward.+ + In éagmais le haghaidh cuid den choiste / In the absence for part of the meeting of Deputy David Cullinane. Teachta / Deputy Seán Crowe sa Chathaoir / in the Chair. 1 JH Impact of Covid-19 on Human Rights and Mental Health: Discussion Chairman: I welcome the witnesses to our meeting, the purpose of which is to discuss the impact of Covid-19 emergency powers on fundamental rights and mental health well-being. From the Mental Health Reform, we have Ms Fiona Coyle, CEO, and Ms Audry Deane, policy and research adviser. From the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, ICCL, we have Mr. Liam Her- rick, executive director, and Ms Doireann Ansbro, senior research and policy officer. Before we hear their opening statements, I need to point out to our witnesses that there is uncertainty as to whether parliamentary privilege will apply to evidence given from a location outside the parliamentary precincts of Leinster House. If, therefore, they are directed by me to cease giving evidence on a particular matter, they must respect that direction. Ms Coyle has five minutes to make her opening remarks. She is very welcome. Ms Fiona Coyle: Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus baill an choiste as an gcuireadh theacht in bhur láthair inniu. Covid-19 is a mental health and physical health emergency. The virus has brought about anxiety in the general population, while public health restrictions and the sudden contraction in our social scope brought isolation and loneliness. Our personal networks and formal support systems were wiped away. The ingrained thinking in Ireland is that mental health is hidden out of sight. It is fringed on the edges of our understanding of what health and well-being is. This binary thinking is long out of date. The pandemic has demonstrated----- Chairman: We are having problems with Ms Coyle’s Internet connection. We will move to Mr. Herrick and come back to Ms Coyle in a moment. Mr. Herrick is very welcome. Ms Fiona Coyle: I think I was cut off, Chairman. Chairman: The connection is still bad. I will invite Mr. Herrick to speak and bring Ms Coyle in after that, if that is okay. Mr. Liam Herrick: I thank the Chairman. On my behalf and on that of the ICCL and my colleague, Ms Ansbro, I thank the committee for inviting us to present before it today. Over the past 14 months, ICCL has made detailed submissions on all aspects of the Govern- ment response to Covid-19, articulating the view that human rights must be protected in dealing with this great social challenge. The powers created by the Health (Preservation and Protection and Other Emergency Measures in the Public Interest) Act 2020 and, indeed, by other Covid-19 legislation are extraordinary. They permit the Minister for Health to make regulations that im- pose significant limitations on all aspects of our fundamental rights. The powers supersede the role of the Oireachtas to scrutinise and debate laws and allow the Minister to designate certain public health matters, which are basic aspects of ordinary life, to be penal provisions, drawing the police and criminal justice system into ordinary daily life. While many of the regulations have been clear and had an understandable purpose, on some occasions, the failure to carry out a human rights impact assessment and consult with the Oireachtas and other stakeholders, has led to disproportionate interference. The ICCL is concerned by what is before the House this week and what is proposed by the Minister for Health and the Government. The situation now is vastly different to the situation in March 2020. At that time, it was unclear if the Oireachtas would be able to sit to consider and pass legislation. The primary role 2 25 MAY 2021 for making regulations was transferred, on a temporary basis, to the Minister for Justice. If, however, the Government is asserting that this extraordinary ministerial power needs to continue, and that the Oireachtas should continue to be excluded from scrutinising and considering legislation in this area, at the very least, the Minister should be putting forward evidence of that ongoing necessity and demonstrating that he and his Department have carried out a review of the exercise of these powers over the last 14 months. This is not about whether the pandemic is over or whether restrictions might still be necessary, it is about whether the Oireachtas will have any role in considering the content of those regulations. Even it is accepted that some ministerial powers need to be retained in this area, we should at the very least be learning from the experience of the last 14 months. There is no evidence that the Minister or the Department have reflected on the recommendations that have been made by the Oireachtas Special Committee on Covid-19 Response, the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC, the Trinity College Dublin Covid Observatory, or indeed, ourselves in ICCL, which have consistently made recommendations on how the ministerial powers might be better supervised and the Oireachtas might have a role in consultation and scrutiny over the regulations. Even if the powers are to be retained and extended, we must now consider when temporary measures cease to be temporary. What is proposed before the Oireachtas this week in terms of a renewal and sunset clause will further marginalise the Oireachtas. As was pointed out in the Seanad yesterday, this is not about an extension only until November. This is the possibil- ity of further subsequent extensions beyond that. We believe there should now be an ultimate sunset clause by which all ministerial powers in this area will cease. The mechanism that is proposed for further extension will require only a resolution of the Oireachtas to add a further three months beyond November. At a minimum, there must be a requirement that a technical report be laid before the Houses and that there be a substantive debate. In light of the fact that the Government has not in any way modified the powers that have been in place since March 2020, we are deeply concerned about an extension to November. At the very same time as the Government is saying that business and society are returning to normal and international travel is coming back, it is extending these powers until November and potentially indefinitely beyond that. The ICCL considers the upcoming end date for the emergency legislation on 9 June as a moment requiring extensive review of these extraordinary powers. Next week, the ICCL will publish a detailed report in conjunction with the Community Foundation for Ireland on all of the pandemic’s impacts on human rights thus far. The Government has had the opportunity to consider the research that has been done and reflect on the experience of the policing of these regulations, yet it is not reflecting any such review in what is before the Oireachtas this week. We call on the Oireachtas to reassert its role and authority as the primary lawmaker in the State and its role in overseeing executive power. We would caution it not to allow such an extreme extension of powers without any modification or oversight. Chairman: We will return to Ms Coyle now. Ms Fiona Coyle: Covid has impacted on our personal networks and formal support systems have been wiped out. The ingrained thinking in Ireland is that mental health is hidden out of sight and it is fringed on the edges of our understanding of what health and well-being are. This binary thinking is long out of date. The pandemic has demonstrated how physical and mental health are inextricably linked to one other and to our well-being. 3 JH In late 2020, RTÉ commissioned important research, entitled The Next Normal, to better understand the effects of the pandemic. Mental health, which had previously not featured, emerged as the fourth most important issue facing Ireland. Research demonstrates decreased psychological well-being and increased anxiety, depression and stress as common psychological reactions. In an Irish context, a March 2021 Amárach poll carried out for the Department of Health reported 36% of people reporting stress, 36% reporting frustration, 29% reporting sadness and 24% reporting loneliness. These were the highest levels since the survey began. Mental health is a dominant theme because it is a sharp reality. Research shows that different groups have different risk factors for Covid-19. People with pre-existing mental health dif- ficulties, health care workers, women, young people, people in precarious work, those who are homeless and ethnic minority groups are more likely to be negatively impacted by Covid-19. When it comes to the effects of the pandemic on mental health, we are not all in this together. Our member organisations, several of whom have appeared before the Oireachtas Sub- Committee on Mental Health, have witnessed an increase in those seeking support. Our mental health system was and is not capable of coping with a surge. It was struggling and close to breaking point long before the pandemic hit. When the tide went out on physical health, the inadequacies of our mental health services were brutally exposed. Deficits include inadequate staffing, ICT shortfalls and insufficient access to services.

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