House of Commons Culture, Media and Sport Committee Valediction of Mark Thompson, Director General of the BBC

Oral evidence

Tuesday 19 June 2012

Mark Thompson, Director General, BBC

Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 19 June 2012

HC 324-i Published on 6 August 2012 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £5.50

The Culture, Media and Sport Committee

The Culture, Media and Sport Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and its associated public bodies.

Current membership

Mr John Whittingdale MP (Conservative, Maldon) (Chair) Dr Thérèse Coffey MP (Conservative, Suffolk Coastal) Damian Collins MP (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe) Philip Davies MP (Conservative, Shipley) Paul Farrelly MP (Labour, Newcastle-under-Lyme) Louise Mensch MP (Conservative, Corby) Steve Rotheram MP (Labour, Liverpool, Walton) Mr Adrian Sanders MP (Liberal Democrat, Torbay) Jim Sheridan MP (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North) Mr Gerry Sutcliffe MP (Labour, Bradford South) Mr Tom Watson MP (Labour, West Bromwich East)

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The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the internet at www.parliament.uk/parliament.uk/cmscom.

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The current staff of the Committee are Elizabeth Flood (Clerk), Sarah Heath (Second Clerk), Victoria Butt (Senior Committee Assistant), Keely Bishop/Alison Pratt (Committee Assistants) and Jessica Bridges-Palmer (Media Officer).

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List of witnesses

Tuesday 19 June 2012 Page

Mark Thompson, Director General, BBC Ev 1

Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 1

Oral evidence

Taken before the Culture, Media and Sport Committee on Tuesday 19 June 2012

Members present: Mr John Whittingdale (Chair)

Dr Thérèse Coffey Jim Sheridan Damian Collins Mr Gerry Sutcliffe Mrs Louise Mensch Mr Tom Watson Steve Rotheram ______

Examination of Witness

Witness: Mark Thompson, Director General of the BBC, gave evidence.

Q1 Chair: All right, let us kick off. Can I welcome administrative jobs, are now carried out by women. for this afternoon session a familiar face before the The director of news is a woman and the controller of Committee, Mark Thompson, the Director General of Radio 4 is a woman and so on. On Today, you touch the BBC, for what may or may not be a valedictory an interesting issue. I would say that I have certainly performance, but we thought it is appropriate to invite felt, in my time as Director General, that the BBC you to come and talk to us not just about recent events could and should do more, and indeed I think we have but to reflect upon the time that you have spent as done some more, especially in making sure that we Director General. Before we move into the more were open to talent from wherever it comes, in general questioning, my colleague, Louise Mensch, particular talent—both on television and radio but has another pressing engagement so she would like to more on television—from older women, and that is ask one or two questions before she disappears and definitely an area where we need to do more. then she may re-appear. Let us start off with Louise. The Today programme question is an interesting one because Today has to cover British public life as it Q2 Mrs Mensch: Mr Chairman, I need to start off currently is rather than the public life that we would by declaring an interest. I am a 50% shareholder in wish it was going to have in the future. It is true in a small tech-media company called Mensch-Bozier, many walks of life, not least politics and Parliament, which has today launched a social media platform. Mr that there is a significant proportion of men, and in Thompson, I apologise because this was re-arranged. the end what we try to do in our news and current I have a meeting that I must attend and will be back affairs is to reflect reality. That means when you are subsequently, but if I could kick off by asking you a doing on the Today programme stories about public question, which is not in the brief and which is about policy, about parliamentary, local and other forms of the BBC’s treatment of women. You will be aware government and politics, when you are covering that a journalist in the Guardian did a study of women business, in a sense you arrive in parts of our national in public life and found that women’s voices were life, some of which have an under-representation of conspicuously absent not just from the BBC but from women compared to the UK population. many other platforms, I think 16% of The Independent newspaper. In particular, she counted up the Q3 Mrs Mensch: If I may say so, Mr Thompson, contribution of women to the Today programme and you would not make that argument, would you, on the found that in almost all cases, women formed less grounds of race? You would not say that because the than 20% of the contributors to the Today programme. BBC has to reflect the world as it is, therefore we will I notice that, when we had you before, the BBC kept exclude ethnic minority presenters and contributors so statistics on racial and ethnic employment but did not they only reflect that portion of—why would you keep any statistics on women’s employment. Do you make the argument for gender? believe that this has been a problem for the BBC Mark Thompson: I am not suggesting that we do under your tenure, both women’s voices on the air in exclude presenters, because we do not, and we have radio television and women employed at the BBC? women presenters across our news and current affairs Mark Thompson: It is a big topic. We do keep programmes, and when we talk to members of the statistics for our employment of women at every level public we try to reflect people from every community of the BBC and I am very happy to share those. We in the country. But when you are, for example, doing make them public. Overall in the BBC this has been debates between MPs, to some extent you have the a period that has seen greater numbers of women issue that you are stuck with the gender balance inside employed at almost every level of the organisation, up the House of Commons. to and including the executive board. Of the other six executive directors in the BBC, three are men, three Q4 Mrs Mensch: It is not completely true though, is are women, and some of the most significant and it, in terms of your public affairs coverage, because if important creative roles in the entire organisation, as you look at Newsnight, the vast majority of the well as some of the most important management and presenting team is men? If you look at the Today Ev 2 Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson programme, the majority of the presenting team is you look at the 10 o’clock news and the Today men. If you look at Question Time, clearly the key programme, the overriding duty is to reflect the world presenter is a man. If you look at Any Questions? the as it is. The danger if you start trying to, in a sense, key presenter is man. If we look at Daily Politics, adjust reality is that people think there are not issues again, it is male-dominated, so we see a range of male in these areas. domination across the whole of the BBC’s flagship Mrs Mensch: Thank you very much. I am hoping to current affairs programming, which I think is not the return to ask you some more questions at the end of way for a public service broadcaster to lead by the session. example. Mark Thompson: Can we focus on Newsnight?We Q9 Chair: Did you agree with Greg Dyke in his have Emily Maitlis, Kirsty Wark and Mishal Husain, criticism of the BBC as hideously white? all regularly presenting the programme. We have just Mark Thompson: I would never use that language appointed a female political editor, Allegra Stratton. and I think that the BBC should be trying to get talent We have a whole range of women on Newsnight. from every part of this country and every different What you have just said is not true. community, and I think that we should focus on the best talent. The issue historically is more about not Q5 Mrs Mensch: No, I think it is true. If we were to fully connecting with every community in the country take the main presenters of the programme, whether and therefore potentially missing out on outstanding it is Gavin Esler or Jeremy Paxman, and count up the journalists, reporters, writers and comedians. I would number of times that men versus women are the main much rather base it around the creative opportunity presenters of your current affairs programme, there is and the richness you can get from being open to talent no doubt at all that men would dominate. from every part of Britain than I would on a judgment Mark Thompson: What I am saying is in Newsnight, call. I would not want to characterise any ethnicity or you are factually incorrect. any colour in negative terms.

Q6 Mrs Mensch: Okay, so if we look not just at the Q10 Chair: In the absence of my colleague, Philip presenters that you have on your roster but the amount Davies, who feels strongly about these matters, of air time they get, you are arguing to me that if I perhaps I should press you. You have argued for a were to go and ask a journalist to take a statistical meritocratic approach, which Philip would absolutely review, there will be just as many women-led support. Are you therefore completely happy with the Newsnight shows as male-led? present ethnic balance and gender balance within the Mark Thompson: But the research you are talking BBC and you think that you have pursued a about into the Today programme was not about meritocratic promotion policy? presenters and reporters in isolation; it was about the Mark Thompson: I believe we are trying to do that. voices heard on the programme as I understand it. Firstly, these things are real and dynamic and they are to do with real human beings and individual choices Q7 Mrs Mensch: It was about both. They literally and anyone who sits here and says, “We are perfect”, counted up every time you heard a male and a female that is exactly when we start getting suspicious. We voice. The programme never came out at even a are not perfect. I think that we have made significant third female. progress in just trying to demonstrate to people who Mark Thompson: I have explained to you why, given might think about working in the BBC that we are some of the topics of the Today programme. I am not going to be fair and open to different talent. I think suggesting that every one of our news and current we have made real progress in terms of our spread affairs programme is absolutely 50–50 representative and the way our doors are open across the United or as I said, in particular in the context of older Kingdom in the way that they were not in the past. I women, that the BBC does not potentially have more think we have made some progress in persuading to do. But this is part of a bigger story about public people who do not come from a majority ethnic life, and, if you look at the make-up of the BBC up population that there might be a great career for them to and including its most senior levels, the BBC is in the BBC. You have heard me say I would like to well ahead of most other British institutions, including see more opportunities for older women on the air. Parliament, in its representation of women. With disability, I think again the BBC benchmarks quite well in how it thinks about encouraging people Q8 Mrs Mensch: Would you accept as a public with disabilities to come and work for us and to go service broadcaster that you have a duty to lead the on working for us, but there is more to do. I think perception of women in public life and not merely some of this is work in progress but we have made reflect the world as it is? progress and we are trying very, very hard to do it Mark Thompson: I am cautious about statements like absolutely on the basis of talent and therefore of that. I think the BBC should not engage in even well- meritocratic judgements. intentioned social engineering. I think the BBC should be, in particular in its news and current affairs, Q11 Chair: The criticism has been made by older reflecting reality. In our employment practices, we women that you reach an age and then you are out the absolutely do have a special duty—we are paid for by door. Do you have some sympathy with that view? the public—to try to access talent and to try to engage Mark Thompson: I think we strenuously try to the perspectives and the experiences of people from convince all of our colleagues, including our women both genders and every other walk of life, but when colleagues, that if that was ever true, it is not true now Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 3

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson and will not be allowed to be true. I hope that you will an example, some of the other broadcasters and the see more role models and more examples of brilliantly ISPs will be an example, there is a different climate talented women who happen to be “older” who there, so in some significant respects I think the BBC continue to broadcast successfully on the BBC. is very different.

Q12 Chair: Can I go back to where we might have Q13 Chair: Your declared ambition is that the BBC started, which is a slightly more general question. You should do less and do it better, but it is not obviously have been the longest serving Director General for 30 at first sight doing less. Do you think that you have years and when you first took up the job you sounded made changes— quite radical. You said, “The BBC must undergo Mark Thompson: We are in the process of making nothing short of transformation.” You spoke about it less. Part of what successive strategies have suggested being simpler and more agile and more creative. Do to us is that concentrating on making smaller numbers you feel that you have delivered that transformation? of hours of content but to a higher standard and then Mark Thompson: There is a Forth Road Bridge using devices like iPlayer to exploit them more and quality, as in painting the Forth Road Bridge quality, get more people to see them is the right way forward, to the BBC but I think in some important ways the and I think you will see that. Although we are living BBC is very different now than it was eight years ago. in an age where choices continue to expand, I do think To state the obvious, we have taken some decisive you are seeing the BBC more clearly focusing on steps into the digital provision of information, those things that matter most for the public. For education and entertainment, some of which have example, we have significantly, over my time, reduced genuinely been as bold as anything anyone has done the amount of acquired programming. We have shifted in the world. The BBC iPlayer would be an example from acquired programming, a topic of yours, much of a combination of technology and a kind of more into origination. We are still spending a great packaging and an offer to the public, which has deal of money on sports rights, and I believe that opened up on demand, including commercial on sports is an important part of what the public want demand in this country, which is fresh. In terms of from the BBC, but we are being more judicious in what we are doing on mobile devices, in the way our which sports we invest in. We are going to be website has grown both in usage but also in spending less money on multiple daytime offers. innovation, we really have seen a decisive change, but Some parts of what we do, Radio 4 famously but also if you look at the BBC itself, it looks and operates the core of our news provision, we are trying to invest in a very different way. Broadcasting and productions as much as we can in because we think that is the centres like Pacific Quay, Salford and the new heart of what the public want from the BBC. My view Broadcasting House are quite different from the BBC has always been—and I think we have seen this in the of old. Technically, we have digital end-to-end work debates around English local radio, for example, and flow; in other words, tapeless environments, much around 6 Music—that there is absolutely no sense more fluid environments involving much more from the British public of wanting a diminution of flexible and less hierarchical working. If you go to service. What we have been trying to do is concentrate Pacific Quay in Glasgow or go to Salford, or look investment so that when we provide those services, literally right now at what we are doing in firing up you get a richer result and, in a sense, more of those Broadcasting House, this is new and it is changing the programmes like Frozen Planet or the Shakespeares, culture of the BBC. which is just coming up, the four Shakespeare In practical terms, we have significantly reduced histories and Julius Caesar from the RSC, where you numbers of senior managers in the organisation. Over see really concentrated, high-value and very the next few years, I would certainly encourage my distinctive programming on the air. successor to believe there is more you can do in trying to flatten the shape of the organisation. The BBC I Q14 Chair: If you are putting more resources into inherited in 2004 had a rather poor reputation among specific new programmes, higher quality, of the kind independent production companies. Now, I believe you have mentioned, and particularly with the advent that indies get a very fair crack of the whip, and in due course of video on demand, do you feel that, indeed currently independent production companies not necessarily tomorrow but in the future, it will no are winning the larger of the competition in the so- longer be necessary for the BBC to offer scheduled called window of competition. They are getting most programming every hour of the day? of the commissions. That is a significant change. Mark Thompson: Clearly, it is possible that there will The other big thing is the BBC is much more engaged be a point in the future where TV content is so in partnership with others and although three or four ubiquitous that—although my own view is that certain years ago, a number of people, including members of services of the BBC will be there for as long as the this Committee, were very sceptical about whether the BBC exists. If you or anyone else suggested BBC could ever do that successfully, whether you are cancelling Radio 4 because of on demand, people talking about platform partnerships—Freeview, would sharpen sticks and come looking for you. I Freeview HD, freesat, YouView, we might come on believe the same is true of BBC 1 as well. to—or if you talk about the cultural partnerships, for example, with the British Museum, Neil MacGregor, Q15 Chair: But daytime TV, which is a filler? A History of the World in 100 Objects, there is a real Mark Thompson: Without casting aspersions on it— sea change there. If you talk to our partners, Arts some may, I will not—the issue here for me is, is there Council will be an example, British Museum will be a point? There could be a point. At the moment it Ev 4 Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson must be said, and very much contrary to most of the Q17 Damian Collins: I would just like to ask a quick predictions, traditional live watching of linear question following on from that. You said in your television seems very healthy. We have had the 2010 MacTaggart lecture that you want to see a iPlayer, which is an enormous success with nearly 2 further significant shift towards distinctiveness, billion streams of programmes last year. Right now, spending more of the licence fee on output you cannot 89% of television viewing, despite iPlayer or Sky see or hear anywhere else and that without the BBC Plus, is still turning on the television and turning on a would not get made at all. I think the contention with television channel. My answer to you would be that The Voice is that that simply does not fit into that although what you say is possible it may be many category of a more distinctive BBC. years before that is the case, and it is highly likely Mark Thompson: It seems to me the debate is—and that, if there is another 10-year charter period, the it is a classic debate—about whether you take—I saw BBC would expect not just to go into but to come the Chairman’s remarks yesterday at the RTS—an out of that 10-year charter period still with a very big absolute purist market-failure view of the BBC, which portfolio of linear television and radio channels, albeit is it should only ever, ever broadcast programmes that that many other digital developments will happen could only possibly come from the BBC because no alongside. other broadcaster would create them, and logically, by the way, if any programme of the BBC does become Q16 Steve Rotheram: Do you believe that the BBC popular, it should stop doing it and give that should be investing in global franchises such as The programme to someone else. Or whether you take the Voice, which has been criticised, not least by my view that bluntly the British public take, which is they colleague Damian Collins and myself, certainly at the do expect the BBC to set a benchmark not just for very beginning for its similarity to the X Factor, rather quality but for distinctiveness and they expect much than promoting original British content? more science, classical music, history, art and so forth Mark Thompson: I think wherever we possibly can, from the BBC than you would get anywhere else, but we should be concentrating on coming up with our they also want from the BBC some high quality own ideas both with our own production departments entertainment. In areas like entertainment, the issues across the UK and also from the British independent of distinctiveness are subtle ones. I would say there producers and then ideally selling those formats to the are some very interesting and original ideas in The rest of the world. Our programme, Strictly Come Voice format. Dancing, which is exactly like that, which is called Dancing with the Stars in other countries, is by most Q18 Damian Collins: With respect, it is a singing measures the most successful entertainment format in competition with celebrity judges for the music world history and makes an enormous amount of industry and it is very like the X Factor. I can see why money, which we can then put back to support the there is criticism from them. I would say Strictly is a licence fee. That is the ideal but what I would say is very different sort of thing. It was a very different in areas like entertainment, where we know that the take on an entertainment programme like that. It was public have a very strong appetite for entertainment distinctive and probably something another on a Saturday, looking judiciously for whether there broadcaster would not have done and was very are interesting and distinctive formats that we can find successful. The BBC should be congratulated on that and use and make our own, adapt to a British but can you not understand where the criticism is audience, will still continue to be part of the story. If coming from with regard to The Voice? somebody asked me whether the BBC should be Mark Thompson: Mass entertainment, popular buying into an American or a German natural history entertainment on the BBC, which by the way from the programme, I would say, “We have the best natural foundations of the BBC and John Reith was always history unit in the world. Should not the boot be on part of what the BBC offered, was always what the the other foot?” Indeed, it is, and for programmes such public wanted from the BBC and is of course where as Frozen Planet or Planet Earth, only about a quarter some of these arguments get the most interesting. We of the funding comes from the licence; the other three- are about to show Richard II, Henry IV Part 1 and quarters is investment from broadcasters in other Part 2, and Henry V on BBC television. You could countries. Yet those are still programmes that make a describe them as costume dramas; just more costume great deal of money, which the BBC can also use to dramas from the BBC. They are by William create more programmes. Shakespeare, they are pretty good and they are My view is The Voice was a good buy. It has been the distinctive. We believe—everyone is entitled to their most successful entertainment launch the BBC has opinion, you may disagree—that The Voice has some had for well over a decade, and it is part of a broader very interesting and original and distinctive elements story of the BBC with Strictly, Doctor Who and to it, and of course we would wish to maximise those Merlin, finding a way on Saturday night of offering in our version. I believe that our version in series 1 entertainment, which many millions of people are was pretty good. If we can make it more distinctive, enjoying. So I would defend it. I also believe that The we will. I will take as an interesting example the Voice has many interesting and distinctive elements, American format of The Apprentice. If you have ever although I think we would say, as we would say about watched the original Donald Trump, the US most programmes, after this first series I am sure the Apprentice, and compare it with the programme we commissioners and producers will want to have a broadcasted in this country, we did a great deal to The good look at it and see whether there are ways that Apprentice, but I continue to believe that The they can make it even better. Apprentice, in its rather jolly but nonetheless Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 5

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson sometimes rather insightful celebration of enterprise, which says, “Yes, the BBC should do popular business and the drama and difficulty of succeeding entertainment programmes on Saturday early evening, in business, has been a very positive thing for the it is clearly what the public want” but there should be BBC to do. I believe that in the hands of the BBC more distinction in the type of programmes that you commissioners and with a very effective partner commission. I think sometimes you get that production company working with us, The Apprentice spectacularly right. My personal view on The Voice is has been a strength and has felt very distinctive. You you probably got it wrong on that one. can say The Apprentice is just another reality show. I Mark Thompson: Okay, but I think the broad think it has been an interesting, valuable and principle where the BBC is doing these things is we distinctive piece. are trying to do things that do not just parallel what is going on on ITV but that are distinctive and are high- Q19 Damian Collins: I love The Apprentice and will quality. I agree with that, and I think being judicious not have a bad word to say about it, but I suppose the about it and making judicious choices in entertainment difference is that there was not anything else quite like are very important, but I would say broadly, if you it on British television at the time. Here you have a looked at what has happened at BBC 1 as a whole format for an entertainment programme that you over the last eight years, I think it has become more bought, the controller went on a plane to go and buy distinctive. There is the placement of specialist factual it before anyone else could snap it up so it is not long-form documentary on BBC 1, sometimes Sunday like it was something that no one else wanted. It was nights, sometimes weekday nights, or big series pieces something that you went out and bought off someone of factual television. If you look at the kinds of else and it is a very like a format for a programme it dramas we have been trying to play on BBC 1, a few is pitched directly against on ITV. Is that the wrong years ago we stripped a drama based on Jesus Christ’s side of this very careful line that has to be drawn? last week from Palm Sunday until Easter Sunday on Mark Thompson: It seems fairly clear, Mr Collins, BBC 1 in prime time. We took Bleak House and that we are not going to reach perfect agreement on played it back to back with EastEnders on BBC 1, this one, but two or three points. What is interesting and these are innovations. They would not have is that the producers of the programme wanted it to happened 10 years ago, 15 years ago. be on the BBC and thought the BBC was the right partner for the programme and accepted an offer from Q22 Damian Collins: On a different subject—I have the BBC that was significantly less than anyone was spent slightly longer on The Voice than I was offering. The Voice was planned to be shown at the intending to—Ofcom. While I was flicking through time when ITV did not have a similar programme in your MacTaggart lecture, refreshing my memory from the schedule and ITV chose to advance Britain’s Got two years ago, something that leapt off the page that Talent against it. I thought I had to ask you about was at the beginning where you said that a successful MacTaggart lecture Q20 Chair: Only by half an hour. Both channels always needs a black-hearted villain, and then you decided to air this on Saturday early evening, and the went on to say, “Occasionally, some would say not fact they did not overlap by half an hour is a minor often enough, it’s Ed Richards.” Do you think he thing. Why did you put it on Saturday early evening would be a suitable successor? when there was Britain’s Got Talent already available Mark Thompson: I am very happy to say that I cannot on ITV? help you on the issue of the acceptability of candidates Mark Thompson: Because we know from talking to and which of the candidates—I am not familiar with licence payers that one of the things they particularly the list—would be the most successful future Director look for from the BBC is arranging entertainment General. I know a man, a distinguished member of the programmes and entertaining programmes on other Chamber, Lord Patten, who could in due course Saturday early evening. Indeed, in periods—and I enlighten you more on that, but I do not think there is have lived through them—when the BBC for many a great deal I can help you with on that. I hope years did not have such programmes, it was one of the everyone will understand that those remarks were biggest causes of complaint from the British public. In meant entirely in jest and I can tell you I have the other words, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, highest possible regard for the Chief Executive of Friday, a rich mixture of different things from the Ofcom. BBC works very well, whether it is Bang Goes the Theory science on BBC 1, whether it is documentaries Q23 Chair: We may return to this a little later. You on BBC 2, whether it is drama on BBC 1, whether it say that the British public want to watch mass is current affairs programmes on BBC 3 or arts on audience entertainment on an early Saturday evening BBC 4. As it happens, the British public on a Saturday and therefore ITV run the X Factor, you run The early evening continue to want not just big popular Voice. They may want family drama. BBC runs entertainment programmes on ITV1 but also big Doctor Who, ITV runs Primeval. Mid-week early popular programmes on BBC 1. If you say, as it were, evening, you have EastEnders, ITV runs Coronation from a market failure theoretical point of view they Street. Are you happy that both channels are should not want that, just explain it to them directly. essentially saying this is what the majority people want therefore that is what we have to supply? There Q21 Damian Collins: I don’t want to ask another is another group of people who do not want those question about this, we have done The Voice,soto things and yet find both the main channels are offering speak. I suppose there has to be room for debate pretty similar entertainment. Ev 6 Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson

Mark Thompson: This is precisely the reason the programmes into households is something that is BBC began—indeed, ITV and other public service intended. That is the reason we have a BBC. If you broadcasters have followed the BBC’s lead—to create do not want that to happen, don’t have a BBC. a portfolio of channels. We offer a great deal of choice Secondly, the BBC has a governance model with its at 7.30pm on a Saturday or a weekday, and if you do sovereign body, the BBC Trust. The process of time not want to watch EastEnders, you have very limited charters and charter review, where impartiality considerable choice. and the avoidance of the abuse of market scale is intrinsic to what the BBC does, and if the BBC, as it Q24 Chair: Is it not an argument for you to say, “A were, attempts to abuse its position in the market, lot of people enjoy EastEnders and probably a similar there is a governing body, there is the charter and the sort of people watch Coronation Street. Therefore, let agreement—and, therefore, potentially judicial ITV do it at that time and we will do it at a completely review—there is parliamentary scrutiny and so forth, different time”? At the moment, you are both in ways that do not apply to private concerns. I think essentially targeting the same people at the same time. the— Mark Thompson: As you know, generally there is a pretty good fit between main channel continuing Q27 Damian Collins: Yes, but I suppose there is also dramas, and certainly at the BBC where we will often, a question of share of voice, whether the BBC’s against running simultaneously with Coronation dominance in certain markets is such that it makes it Street, try to offer a real contrast. For example, I harder for competitors. Ofcom cites in the report that would point to Bang Goes the Theory—it is the first the BBC is the market leader in each platform where time that we have ever had a science magazine on it has news presence: 74% of television news hours, a BBC 1—as a good complement to Coronation Street. high but unquantifiable portion of radio news and 46% If you look at the filigree of the schedule, you will of all page views among the top 50 online news quite often find contrasting programmes. We know providers. that people want a choice. It is partly because those Mark Thompson: I don’t know if it is Ofcom or you, people who do not want to watch a soap will want to but it is not 74% of news hours. watch something else, and also because people who Damian Collins: All right, but that is what it said, really like soaps, continuing dramas, may want to though. watch both and it is inconvenient to have them against Mark Thompson: It is 30% of news hours and 74% each other. We try to make sure as far as we can that of viewing. we find a good fit, but also there are other channels— Damian Collins: Right. back to that issue of the portfolio of channels—to Mark Thompson: Because the other complexity is the provide as much of a choice for the public as we can. BBC services are popular and sometimes, even if we have a relatively smaller proportion of hours Q25 Damian Collins: Back to Ed Richards. Ofcom broadcast, sometimes usage is high. In sport, I think published their reports on media plurality. It has just in television, we represent 2% of hours of sport and come out. 45% of viewing. So one thing about the BBC is we Mark Thompson: I have had a brief look. pretty efficiently convert hours broadcast into actually Damian Collins: Firstly, do you agree that BBC share hours viewed, much more efficiently than all other of market, share of voice, should be included in a broadcasters because the BBC is very popular with broad assessment on media plurality? the viewing public. Mark Thompson: As I understand it, Ofcom is I think I would say a couple of things. Firstly, the suggesting that from time to time it would be BBC—and I think the BBC Trust is well aware of appropriate for the BBC Trust to look at the issue of this—itself has a duty to maximise plurality in its plurality in the context of the BBC. In terms of the services and within its programmes. It is important, topic, it is reasonable to look at the BBC’s own for example, on programmes like Question Time and responsibilities as regards plurality. It is not clear to Any Questions? that a broad range of voices should me from what Ofcom has said today that they are appear, and that within different BBC services proposing that BBC should be considered as if it was Newsbeat will offer a different flavour of news than any other media provider, because we are not. Analysis or The World Tonight would do on Radio 4. One of the things I believe the trust will want to look Q26 Damian Collins: It does say that it is the role at more closely—plurality is only part of the of the trust to assess that, but it is slightly clearer in impartiality duty of the BBC—in the future is making point 5 in the summary, “The BBC’s leading position sure that the BBC is helping to contribute to plurality in TV, radio and online news means it should be as much as it can do. The fact that it has a large share included in any plurality review. The BBC’s position of voice in itself, if those things are being done itself should not trigger one”. It is not saying there properly, should not unduly worry the public. should be a review because of BBC but that you should be included in any plurality review. Q28 Damian Collins: Your view, if I might Mark Thompson: The point I would want to make is summarise, is that because of the way the BBC is the BBC has some very important differences from governed it should not be considered as a part of a other media providers. Firstly, we are charged in our plurality review like any other broadcaster. That is royal charter with reaching every household in the your contention, is it? country. That is what we are set up under the charter Mark Thompson: Yes, it is. It is a bit like the National to do and reach for the BBC of high quality Health Service. That controls an awful lot of hospitals Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 7

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson and doctors because it is set up to be a national health areas like business coverage, coverage of Europe, service. The BBC is set up to be a national broadcaster coverage of immigration, to broaden the range of reaching every household. Now, do you need to make voices, not least to reflect genuine debates that are sure you have controls to make sure it does that in a happening out there in the public. I would say that is way that is good and true? Yes. If you don’t want a one dimension of it. national broadcaster, by all means argue for its The other dimension is making sure that you are abolition, but once you say you want a ubiquitous broadcasting in ways that connect with lots of national broadcaster, the fact that it has a significant different sectors of society, because there is another share of voice is a mark of success, not failure. potential risk, which is that you only connect most regularly and solidly with a subsection of society. I Q29 Damian Collins: I am sure Rupert Murdoch think, for example, it is also important to make sure, would agree with you on that. But do you not see on BBC 3, on Radio 1 and 1Xtra, in particular, that there is also a ground in a plurality review for looking you are providing political debate, current affairs and at the market and saying, “One player is just now so other topical discussion in ways that connect with dominant, be it local news or online news or music, teenagers and young adults, as well as other parts of coverage of live music, that actually the regulator the audience. should look to intervene in the market on competition grounds”, and that therefore the BBC should be considered as part of that market analysis? Q31 Damian Collins: Yes. The report says here— Mark Thompson: I think these are two different you could see it as a recommendation or a note or you topics: one, plurality: how effectively does our could see it as a criticism, but it says, “In terms of democracy work in terms of the free exchange of the work of broadcasters in creating a more informed views, is one topic, dealt with by a separate citizenship, this would be better served if the BBC administration. There is the issue of competition, and positively promotes internal plurality, not just between I have no doubt that—tragically, I am not going to different news programmes and services but also have the pleasure myself of being part of it—there within them in order to broaden the diversity of voices will be another lively debate in the run up to the next and viewpoints available to individual consumers and charter about whether the BBC’s position in these citizens more broadly”. Do you think there needs to markets, the net effect, is to help commercial be more than— broadcasting or hinder it. I would make the point that Mark Thompson: As it happens, I think generally the we have a very lively and very successful television BBC does a pretty good job and I think we have done radio industry, that our newspapers actually are a better job over this last period than before. It is a performing in many ways much better than great topic to go on working on. I think one of the newspapers in other countries, like the United States strongest arguments the BBC can make in the future, where there is nothing like the BBC competing. There including a charter review for its share of voice—to is no evidence that UK commercial media is use your phrase—is the fact that it uses that share of struggling, relative to other countries, because of the voice to get the widest possible range of opinions. So BBC. I have never seen a single piece of evidence I think it is something to go on worrying away at. about the adverse strategic consequences of the BBC in terms of the UK media markets, but of course there Q32 Damian Collins: We may come on to this, but will be a debate about that. whenever there is criticism of the BBC’s coverage people might say it is about partiality, but it is Q30 Damian Collins: Finally, I want to just cover probably not that; it is more about the lack of on this report what Ofcom delightfully calls, “Internal internal plurality? plurality”, which is something we sort of touched on. Mark Thompson: I think that is very fair. In other Mark Thompson: Slightly East German-sounding. words, to use the language, within impartiality you Damian Collins: Exactly, and only a regulator would get away with that. need to make sure that you are unbiased but also that Mark Thompson: Yes. you are sufficiently open so that, as it were, within the Damian Collins: Which they say is not something the debate you are trying to be balanced about the way BBC Trust is necessarily obliged to consider but—it you do the debate, but also you make sure that you touches on something you mentioned earlier—is about are keeping the doors open so that the debate is as the breadth of voices heard within BBC coverage. wide as it can be and you don’t fall into the trap of They have highlighted this in their report. Do you thinking that the answer is always somewhere in the think this is something the BBC needs to do more middle. History suggests that sometimes people, work on? retrospectively, will think actually that the answers did Mark Thompson: As Director General I have been, not naturally migrate to the middle; that sometimes myself, pretty focused on this, often by the way in people who were regarded initially as outliers turn out ways that prove controversial. Choosing to have the to be the people who feel they were right—famously, leader of the British National Party on Question Time Winston Churchill in the 1920s and 1930s on the is an example of broadening the range of voices, in threat from Germany. I think being alive to the fact ways that many people, frankly, were uncomfortable that across the whole range of the debate, the person with. I think it is very important, actually, if the BBC who in the end, in a sense, history may judge is right fails to represent all the voices that are out there in may not be somewhere in the middle. our community. I have tried with my colleagues in Damian Collins: Okay. Thank you. Ev 8 Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson

Q33 Steve Rotheram: Just to follow on from that colleagues and my successor have to make sure that response. As democrats, I don’t think anybody has they are thinking about politics and the structure of argued against the points that you have made, Mr politics as it is now and as it is going to be in the Thompson, but for the life of me I can’t understand future. why the BBC continues to pay licence-fee money to To state the obvious, the vote we are expecting in Kelvin McKenzie. I asked for a FOI on the issue, and autumn 2014 in Scotland about Scottish independence the BBC wrote back and said they rejected the FOI is a different kind of democratic moment, and how because they claimed it would impinge on artistic you cover that in Scotland, how you cover that in the impression and it was not a proportionate use of the rest of the UK, how you cover it for the BBC’s licence fee to devote resources to finding the audiences around the world raises some interesting information. That information obviously would be new questions. So the answer is that what we try to readily at hand. I think you would just push one button do is we always try to pay close attention to how and be able to determine that. people vote. Opinion polls are great, but we are very Just on that, there are people who would have extreme interested in what actually happens in elections. views, and that is not the issue. It is not just internal Before each new election we try to weigh the evidence plurality that you are talking about, it is also about the and base all of our dispositions on the basis of all of number of complaints an individual gets. How many the evidence. people need to complain about McKenzie being on the BBC getting their money before the BBC stops Q35 Jim Sheridan: A couple of brief comments putting money in his pocket? before I go on to my main question. First, the Chair Mark Thompson: If I can most usefully make a referred to daytime television. It is not just the BBC general response. I think this very much goes to the but all the TV channels in terms of daytime point that Mr Collins and I have been discussing, television—I think it is a Government conspiracy to which is that I think we need to have a broad range get people into work because they are so dreadful, and of voices on the BBC. Not everyone who appears on I am not the only one that thinks that. That is not just the BBC is going to be to my taste, and I am sure not the BBC; that is all the— to yours or anyone else’s taste. The nature of the open Mark Thompson: A contribution to the growth society we live in is that you can and should hear all debate. sorts of views and perspectives. Although I think it is entirely reasonable—we should Q36 Jim Sheridan: Yes, that is what it is. The always listen carefully to complaints—I am pretty second one is just picking up on a point that Louise worried about the idea that you, as it were, get a Mensch made. I think it is right that people will look number, some magic number where you are saying, at ethnic, gender, age, and so on, but could I throw “Well, once we have had X-number of complaints something else in the mix, and that is the social about someone they will never appear on the BBC background of the people working at the BBC. I again”. Is that really sensible? Because I tell you now, would suggest—there are no figures taken—there is a in terms of political life, some of these political large proportion of public-school boys and public- programmes are going to be denuded slightly if you school girls in that mix. I don’t think it takes a brain could say, “Well, if we get 50,000 complaints, then surgeon to read off an autocue, so I think you should they will be banned from the BBC”. look at the social background as well. The idea of banning voices, although I can see you Mark Thompson: I think you would be surprised find someone’s views hateful or whatever, might be actually. For the top 25 managers in the BBC—partly superficially attractive, I think it is not in the spirit of because of a remark you made or a question you what a public broadcaster in an open society should raised at one of the Select Committees—we did ask do. the question of everyone, and I think seven or eight of the 25 were privately educated and the rest were Q34 Mr Watson: It is very heartening to hear that, educated in the state system. It is less true of the BBC Mr Thompson, and I think a plurality of voices is than you might think. definitely where the BBC need to be. One thing that One of the ironies about the BBC is people’s image interests me in the English regions, in the wards where of the BBC—and you might say I am a stereo-typical they stood, UKIP got one in 10 votes in the recent representative of that image—may well be of a private elections in May. Could you see a situation where school and university education. We have people from UKIP should be represented in the leaders’ debates lots of different backgrounds in the organisation and during the general election? we are trying very hard to open doors in the BBC. Mark Thompson: Again, not wishing to pre-empt or We now have many dozens of apprentices working in to predict any kind of specific issue like that, of the BBC, some of whom I hope will go on to be course, when you think about potential future leaders’ directors of the organisation, as well as graduate debates, when you think about the disposition of party trainees and so forth. We are trying hard to convince election broadcasts and how you think about balance different communities that we are absolutely open to during election periods, British politics is happening business for them. I regularly myself talk to students in real time and you have to constantly review what in state schools, and so do many of my colleagues, to is going on. I would say that we are going through a try to encourage people who do not come from period where elections for mayors around the country, privileged backgrounds to think about working for the the forthcoming elections for Police Commissioners, BBC, because we will not reflect this country, we will raise interesting new questions for us, and my not succeed in connecting with our audiences, if we Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 9

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson all come from one social group. I think we are making Q38 Jim Sheridan: I watched it and I thought it was progress on that front, actually. really good, and I don’t think that people took into consideration the horrific conditions that people— Q37 Jim Sheridan: I am delighted to hear that. I particularly those behind the cameras—must have stand corrected if that is indeed the case. But moving been working in. I think most of the criticism I would on to the question that you are probably anticipating, say was politically generated by some people. What which is the Jubilee and the Queen’s Pageant, which would you give it out of 10? has generated a great deal of—shall we say—negative Mark Thompson: I want to go back to my earlier publicity. Do you think you did a good job? point, which is everyone is entitled to their opinion. I would, however, note that last year there was quite a Mark Thompson: So, what is the benchmark? We ask lot of criticism of our coverage of the Royal Wedding, people about every single programme that we make, a programme that went on, looked at in the cold light whether they thought it was a high-quality programme of day, to win the BAFTA. If you go back to the or not, and the verdict of the British public was a so- Golden Jubilee, the BBC was forced to defend itself called appreciation index score of 82, which is just after 1,000 phone calls of complaint—about the same, over eight out of 10. We have done a little bit more by the way, initial number of complaints as the research after that, which frankly supports that. So the Diamond Jubilee—because David Dimbleby was public’s verdict was around eight out of 10. Now, I “talking too much”. I am sure if you went back to the would say about all television programmes and all Silver Jubilee—I think one of the parts of the national radio programmes, everyone is entitled to their ritual of these great occasions is a day two story opinion, and an average across the entire UK criticising some aspect of what the BBC has done. population—we are talking about many, many But what I can do is simply say we look at, simply millions of people who watched it—of eight out of 10 statistically, public reactions to all of these events, and does not mean that everyone gave it eight out of 10. the River Pageant 82, the concert I think 85, and the Some people might have given it four out of 10. But following day I think 86/87 for the events in the Mall this was a programme where all of the objective and before that in St Paul’s. So if you ask the public, evidence about the British public is the public they were broadly very satisfied with the coverage, basically thought it was a programme that deserved which is not to say there are, no doubt, some lessons eight out of 10. learned. Like any programme, of course—particularly, any live programme—no doubt we have lessons to learn. We Q39 Jim Sheridan: I would like to ask you also had some bad luck with the weather, and the weather about your own stewardship and, indeed, your was difficult for the event. successor’s stewardship. This is a comment from Jim Sheridan: I was watching in Glasgow with my another right-wing columnist from the Daily Mail, flip-flops on. who suggests— Mark Thompson: The weather had the specific effect Chair: Jim reads little else. of making communications between our cameras very Jim Sheridan: It says, “Indeed, the Corporation’s difficult. We lost most of our cameras for a period on soon-to-quit director-general, Mark Thompson, has the boats and some of the cameras on dry land as well. admitted that it had been guilty of a ‘massive’ Left- That meant in the middle of the coverage we were wing bias in the past and that there had been a spending a bit less time on the river covering the event ‘struggle’ to achieve impartiality”. First of all, did you and a bit more time away from the river than we say that? would have liked. We also had one or two, not many, Mark Thompson: Well, I think the one thing I said— inaccuracies in the commentary, which we should not of course rather brilliantly these things get condensed have had. So I would say, as with any programme— and somehow, in the process, they change their as with any programme—I am sure the team can go character, don’t they?—was that the BBC I joined in away and learn some of the lessons. But please see 1979 I thought did have some issues, not on the air that in the context of the public saying this as a but in terms of the make-up of the people who worked programme that was 8.2, just over eight out of 10. there. So this was not a point about the actual on air coverage of the BBC but simply saying that in the The BBC, as you perhaps know, produced the concert current affairs department I joined—what is now—33 at Buckingham Palace on Monday night and of course years ago, there were an awful lot of people who we also covered the state occasion on Tuesday night, seemed to come from and to talk privately from a left- as well as events up and down the country. We also wing perspective and not many from a conservative asked the British public, “The Diamond Jubilee perspective. I think we have come a long way from coverage: how did that affect your view of the BBC?” there. I think it is fair to say, for example, that four and the answer was 81% said their view was Ministers of the present Government are former BBC unchanged. By the way, approval of the BBC is at an alumni. All Tories as well, Chairman, by the way. historic high; it is very high at the moment. 81% said People of my generation, and some of these unchanged; 8% said their view of the BBC had gentlemen—I am sure they are all gentlemen—are deteriorated as a result of it; 11% said it had got better. from my vintage. People of my generation came in So the Diamond Jubilee, as a whole, has not had a big with a broader set of perspectives than people from effect on the public but, if anything, more people said the generation of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s at the that their opinion of the BBC had increased because BBC. Again, I would say this is also another aspect of it rather than diminished. of that issue of plurality, and also who do you Ev 10 Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson employ? You want people to come with a range of pretty inappropriate on any channel, but on the different political backgrounds. The really important BBC—” thing, and to be fair I think this was true of the BBC Mark Thompson: As I say, interestingly enough, if in 1979 as well. It is like the jury room. You get in to you look at our duty logs and all the rest of it, it work on the BBC, and whatever your personal views was not really members of the public—it caused some are you should get on with the job of trying to be as comments in some newspapers certainly. fair and impartial as you possibly can be. That is the important thing. It is the values of the organisation Q44 Chair: You think that was not embarrassing to and people’s commitment to live with the values of you? the organisation that matters more than personal Mark Thompson: I don’t really want to engage, in the political history, I would say. sense that if you are not careful you take 15 seconds out of three days of broadcasting— Q40 Jim Sheridan: I think obviously the 1979 bit Chair: It is very easy for you to say broadly you are has been left out by this columnist. Your successor very happy with it, but there are one or two elements has come in with, “Is a Labour crony who turned a you agree perhaps were not appropriate. blind eye to porn fit to run the BBC?” Seriously, is Mark Thompson: I do not want to take individual this political interference or intimidation? What is it? elements, but as I have said to you, I have been Mark Thompson: Just as a point of clarification, my working in broadcasting for more than three decades, understanding of the process is that we are talking and I have yet to come across or indeed be involved about one potential successor there. In the process of in a perfect programme. selection of the next Director General we are still kind of mid-flight. I think I would say to anyone who is Q45 Chair: So do you share Mark Damazer’s view thinking of becoming Director General of the BBC, that you may have been guilty of trying to be more “If you don’t like the idea of the odd disobliging piece inclusive and provide for people who were less in the papers”—that is part of the territory, and it interested in the historic and the cultural background, should be; it is a big public office and it is a national and that that might be a mistake? broadcaster, everyone pays for it—“I am afraid you Mark Thompson: If I may say so, if you look at our have to take your lumps.” No decision has been taken coverage of the Diamond Jubilee, starting with Andy about my successor, therefore it is not yet possible to Marr’s documentary series about Her Majesty the criticise them as my successor because we do not Queen, carrying on with John Bridcut’s wonderful know who they are yet. documentary on the Friday night, Prince Charles’ reflections on his family history, and then looked at the main coverage over the Sunday, Monday and Q41 Jim Sheridan: I am just concerned seriously Tuesday, the idea that that was not full of history and that this is political intimidation. archive and celebration of this remarkable story of one Mark Thompson: I understand. woman and her family and the country, I thought Jim Sheridan: That is what worries me. we—and not even touching on what we did on local radio and regional television and all the rest of it— Q42 Chair: Before we depart from the Jubilee captured all of that. You can’t capture every— Pageant, did you not wince over Fearne Cotton and Chair: Was Mark Damazer not right? the sick bags? Mark Thompson: The thing is you have to, in my Mark Thompson: Well, I think, if I may say so, what view, if you are talking about the BBC’s Diamond I have to do in my job as editor-in-chief is step back Jubilee coverage, look at the coverage as a whole. As and look at these pieces of broadcasting in the round, I say, the effect of the coverage is from the coverage and when you are broadcasting over many, many as a whole. What is interesting is millions and hours live on television and radio, all sorts of things millions of people did just that and watched all of it. are going to happen, particularly if—as I think is Chair: So you do not agree with Mark Damazer? right—you are trying to do something that is part of a Mark Thompson: As I say, I did not hear Mark’s national celebration with all sorts of characters and precise remarks. things going on. I broadly think the public are right Chair: He said pretty much that. and I think the broad sweep of this was really good. I Mark Thompson: I think what I would say is trying thought the concert was one of the best things of its to simultaneously reflect both, if you like, the pomp kind we have ever done, and I thought that there were and circumstance, the history and the heritage of this, things on the Sunday, some of the moments on the but also sometimes—particularly on the Sunday, Sunday on the river, the service at St Paul’s and the which was always intended as the kind of people’s classic moments in the Mall, I thought it was a really element of this weekend—a much more popular and good piece of broadcasting, which— in some ways demotic event than, for example, the service in St Paul’s on the Tuesday, meant that we Q43 Chair: To some extent I think one of the reasons were absolutely broadening the range of voices and it may have rated so highly is because the people hearing some fun and games and jollity as well. enjoyed watching the pageant. That may be a reflection of the pageant rather than the BBC’s Q46 Chair: I get the impression that you basically coverage of the pageant. But I don’t want you just to think the BBC’s coverage of the pageant was fine and ignore Fearne Cotton and the sick bags. That did this is a Daily Mail wrap-up conspiracy to attack the actually cause an awful lot of people to say, “This is BBC. Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 11

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson

Mark Thompson: You have heard me say a number originating from BBC 3 programmes not from BBC of times—I will say it again—I think everyone is 1. So we have used repeats from BBC 1 to help bring entitled to their opinion and we broadcast for an audience to BBC 3. Increasingly BBC 3 is using its everyone. Frankly, as I said, we don’t ever produce own programming to reach its audiences. It is winning programmes that are fully to everyone’s satisfaction awards—many of these programmes are winning but the public’s mark for the River Pageant of eight awards. out of 10, for the rest of the coverage probably eight Current affairs has been one of the most exciting areas and a half, tending to nine, I think is a good result. in BBC 3. I thought that Our War, the series of documentaries essentially made by British soldiers in Q47 Mr Watson: Mr Thompson, I think where you combat in Afghanistan is one of the best pieces of will probably get universal support is from parents television in my time as director, and possibly in my who would applaud your decision to include time in TV. BBC 3 has an ability to touch on and tell children’s content, children’s TV, in the five principles the interesting, international, sometimes darker side of of public service broadcasting. Do you think your popular topics, such as where are your clothes made, decision to do that has been a success, and what does what are the conditions in which the clothes you buy the future look like for children’s TV? and wear are made, what is going on with the kind of Mark Thompson: I hope a really strong and positive traditions that some British ethnic minority one. Two things have happened, I think: firstly, the communities grow up with, and how do children’s decision that I was involved in as director of television rights and women’s rights play out in different parts at the BBC before I went on to Channel 4—so now 12 of the world? That has been very powerful as well as years ago—to launch dedicated children’s channels, I some powerful drama and comedy. BBC 3 is really think has been a triumphant success. The idea of high punching its weight. quality children’s channels with quite a lot of When the BBC Trust did its service review, I think origination in them, dedicated to children, is BBC 3 had the most positive service review from the something not just children embrace but so do their BBC Trust of any I can remember since the creation parents, because having them without advertising and of the trust, so I believe that I am winning the without a subscription, and generally with a sense of argument. a safe environment has been positive. Around that we have done two more things. I think Q49 Mr Watson: I hate to admit it, but I think you we are getting better and better at connecting with might be. children on the web using some of the same ideas, Chair: Oh dear— some of the same brands as we use on our TV Mr Watson: The Chair won’t, but it is a bit too young channels, and we have also begun to see some really for him anyway. quite big investments in some quite interesting pieces. Mark Thompson: We did one programme, which is I think of The Sarah Jane Adventures and Horrible the programme the Chair became obsessed with. It Histories, things that have started off being aimed at was the dwarf who nailed his penis to a block of children but actually have been family entertainment. wood. More broadly, the idea of returning to the idea of Chair: It was called Bizarre ER, I seem to recall. family entertainment, so programmes that children Mark Thompson: I begged him not to do it at home and young people will genuinely want to watch and himself but— their parents will want to watch with them—Dr Who and Merlin would be examples—again, people said Q50 Mr Watson: I was probably watching Horrible that wasn’t possible. People said that that age was Histories when he was watching that. Do you think over, that the idea of everyone crowding round the one of the lessons for your successor, a lesson from TV to watch something together was over, audiences BBC 6 Music, is if you want to build an audience would segment and everyone would be watching and share you should threaten to close the station down? doing their own thing in their own room. Actually, I Mark Thompson: No. Well, one of the challenges you think the BBC has a very interesting role to play in have with any new digital service, it is true of the trying to find pieces that really work for children and newspapers, it is true of everyone—it is a very work for parents as well. crowded world—is how do you get people to notice your service. It turns out having an enormous public Q48 Mr Watson: I would say Horrible Histories is debate about whether the service should continue probably the most remarkable piece of TV in the simply found in the case of 6 Music a lot of people kid’s— who had never heard of it, and never tried it before Mark Thompson: Yes. and who sampled it because of the fuss. What is really Mr Watson: If I can move you up the age range a interesting about 6 Music is that—I am exaggerating little bit to younger audiences, it is my observation slightly—they basically all stayed and the radio that we have always teased you about BBC 3 at every station now has twice as many people listening to it appearance you have had before this Committee, as it had beforehand. They are more passionate than where we have challenged you on audience share, and the original audience was in many ways, and of course you have always pushed back on original content the value-for-money arguments for not having 6 creation. Do you— Music also evaporated because the audience became Mark Thompson: I think I am winning the argument so much bigger. I would say to those people who are in almost every way. It is interesting now that more sharpening their pencils in the run up to the next than two-thirds of BBC 3’s audience consumption is charter, 6 Music is one of four popular music radio Ev 12 Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson stations on the BBC, and it turns out that shutting one Q52 Mr Sutcliffe: Do you think there is more room of the four was something that was confronted with for those sort of partnerships, in the sense of— real public anger and disagreement. Mark Thompson: We have quite a few right now. We The other thing I would say about the BBC Trust and are showing the Euro 2012 in partnership with ITV. the BBC as well, is that we try to listen. There were We have often been open to partnerships. You could many representations made by members of the public, argue that rugby is split between the BBC, ITV and and by MPs, about our proposed changes to local Sky, for example. But we recognise that the public radio and we took them away, scratched the layers and want a significant portfolio of sports from the BBC. changed them because of what some of you said to us We will have to recognise the realities. We have to and what the public said to us. I think the other strike good bargains where we can. We have renewed significant change in the BBC is we are trying quite the highlights of the premiership, the rights we use in hard to listen and adapt strategy in the light of what Match of the Day, pretty much at par; pretty much. We are paying very slightly more but as part of this the public and what MPs and others say to us. deal we also get iPlayer on demand rights. So I would regard it as paying roughly flat for the next three Q51 Mr Sutcliffe: If I could keep on the theme of years. If you look at the live rights, they have gone content and investment. We are obviously all looking up by 70%. So we are trying to strike good bargains forward to the Olympics and Paralympics and the on behalf of the licence payer, but we want to get the wonderful coverage we will get from the BBC over best portfolio we can, given the constrained means that period of time. The BBC has always had a rich that we have. heritage and tradition of sport. Mark Thompson: Yes. Q53 Mr Sutcliffe: We are just seeing now with the Mr Sutcliffe: We are all hoping that sport Premier League packages with BT being involved, so development continues in what we call “the decade of what I would hope is that there are opportunities for sport”. So why then the decision to pull back from those partnerships to develop— certain sports, to not bid for, I think, it is horse racing Mark Thompson: There are. Live soccer, those that you have come out of and things like that? There packages imply £6 million as a right to deal per match are a number of sports where you are not going to get and that is not, in my view, a good use of the licence involved; what is the thinking behind that? fee. Mark Thompson: The BBC is currently figuring out Mr Sutcliffe: No. I am not thinking you can be doing ways to make around 16% savings in its spending that, but in other sports that principle of using other between now and the end of the charter. I actually set partners that might want to get involved. Thanks. a slightly higher target for the organisation of 20% to make sure there was some money to actually invest in Q54 Jim Sheridan: Just very briefly. You will quality, to continue to invest in a digital future, and probably recall the corporation came in for some very few parts of the organisation can be left criticism in relation to England’s World Cup bid, in untouched by that. Like you, I believe that having a terms of the Panorama programme. strong portfolio of sport is very important to the BBC, Mark Thompson: Yes. but we are having to make tough choices. Both in the Jim Sheridan: We have now had recently the case of horse racing and in the case of the decision to Panorama programme on Ukraine. Is that likely to be share Formula One rights, we looked very hard at our causing any more friction between—about tonight and spend, we looked very hard at the audiences. I think about supporting England tonight? the only way we could have kept horse racing would Mark Thompson: Well, my— have been a much bigger commitment to horse racing. Steve Rotheram: Can we just check the transcript We would have been very happy to carry on showing then? and paying for the races that we did show. Mark Thompson: It is true that the Panorama about Understandably, the people who control the rights of certain unsatisfactory and arguably corrupt practices horse racing, in a sense wanted to find a broadcaster at FIFA in the run-up to the selection of the 2018 and 2022 host nations of the World Cup, and indeed I have to take virtually everything. We did not think it was a to say before that, in my first months as Director time when we could do that. General, the Panorama about corruption inside the With Formula One, the decision to share the rights, it IOC when London was trying to get the 2012 Games, was our idea, we approached both the rights holder were both points where I came under quite a lot of and Sky with the idea of sharing the rights, was to pressure. I haven’t felt any pressure over the save money, which would mean that we would not Panorama recently about racism in Ukraine and have to cut BBC programmes elsewhere. What is Poland—significant pressure. encouraging so far with Formula One—it has been a Chair: I may be about to change that, but go on, yes. great success for Sky—is audiences on the BBC for Mark Thompson: Let’s hear what the Chair has to Formula One remain extremely healthy. We have half say. My view is that Panorama should look at sport the Formula One matches live, the other half we have as it looks at any other subject, and I would defend 75 minutes’ highlights of each of the other games. We Panorama’s right to do that. I have been entirely are still getting very healthy audiences for Formula resistant to suggestions that it is inappropriate for One, and we have saved well in excess of £30 million Panorama to look at these topics, or that we should a year by doing this, which is a significant part of the influence scheduling decisions about our journalism total savings we have to make across the BBC. because of some other considerations. For me, the Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 13

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson impartiality and the independence of our journalism is Q58 Chair: But the boat was a mistake, wasn’t it? paramount, and I have not been prepared, as editor- Mark Thompson: I am absolutely happy to accept in-chief of the BBC, to trim that because it is that that boat, the famous “Ship of Fools” was not our inconvenient or is likely to lead to embarrassment. finest hour. Chair: Ah, right, so you do accept that— Q55 Chair: I should declare I am Chairman of the Mark Thompson: Well, what is really important to British-Ukraine Parliamentary Group in Parliament. I say, though, is the incident—I see my colleagues from fully agree, Panorama is entitled to produce hard- the Daily Mail writing now. The false move to make hitting investigative reports, but you should be aware in the game is to say because not every aspect of the that there is profound concern in the Ukraine OB on the boat was as good as we would have wished administration and in the embassy—and I have raised it to be, that, therefore, the BBC’s coverage of the this with David Jordan—so if you could at least 2010 election was a fiasco, is utter nonsense. We were seriously listen to the complaints that they have about there. Every previous election I have been involved that programme. in, you would have expected ITV, you would have Mark Thompson: Well, of course. We are talking expected Channel 4 to be on air. The Tuesday night, about two different topics, or at least two parts of the one of the most momentous and exciting nights for topic. One topic, should Panorama be able to do it. political coverage, BBC was there with completely Now, I would say I watched the programme on straight and outstanding coverage from David transmission. I wasn’t involved before. I watched it. I Dimbleby down. I thought on election night that will and my colleagues will of course consider any particular OB did not work, but I think it is to be complaints people have made. I have to say my prima honest a canard to imagine that it is a sensible facie reaction to the programme is that it was a very pathway to take one thing in a programme that hasn’t strong piece and, indeed, many of the things it was quite worked and somehow get that to stand for the featuring it was able to film and show you on camera entire programme, to use it as a kind of metonym—to use a fancy word—of the entire programme, because what it was doing. But of course if there are this didn’t work or because of one remark by one complaints then we will consider them. presenter the whole day was a fiasco, in fact the whole event was a fiasco. That is nonsense, and it is simply Q56 Chair: That is all I ask. It has caused concern. not borne out by public reaction. I do not want to return to the specific topic of the pageant, which I think we have probably exhausted, Q59 Chair: I think there is a middle way. I am not but the general observation—and I don’t want to saying that— specifically attribute Mark Damazer, but I think what Mark Thompson: No. But, to be honest, the mis- he was saying is a widely held view—that the BBC, reporting of these things, probably including these possibly in response to people like us pressing it on remarks, means that that is taken in some newspapers reach or audience figures, has tended to—in popular as the totality of the truth, and that because one little parlance—dumb down, and that you have tried to bit of what was an entire election campaign, the first appeal to a wider audience by perhaps becoming less set of debates with prime ministerial candidates, and intellectual in some of the coverage. Do you think so forth, and this extraordinary aftermath, which I there is any justice in that criticism? thought the BBC did brilliantly over many days, Mark Thompson: No, I don’t. I think Gillian exhausted people continued to cover it over many Reynolds was pretty close to accusing Radio 4 of days, that all of this is somehow put in the balance dumbing down by devoting a day to James Joyce’s with a couple of moments on deck on the ship and, Ulysses. Again, Radio 4 devoting an entire day to therefore, the whole thing— Ulysses, last year Life and Fate, the Grossman classic, One of the frustrations, if you like, in looking at some science on the BBC—science is transformed on the of the print coverage is exactly that kind of distortion. BBC, not just on Radio 4 but on BBC 1 and BBC 2, But what is interesting over this period is the gap our Darwin—well, look at Brian Cox and the series between the trust that is placed in the BBC and the of programmes that Brian Cox— trust that is placed in British newspapers has never been wider. Over this period trust in the BBC has gone Q57 Chair: No one is arguing that there is not up, and that is not something you can say about every extremely high quality programming on the BBC, and news provider in this country. obviously you can point at things, like Brian Cox and James Joyce, and so on, but— Q60 Dr Coffey: Hello, Mr Thompson. Sorry, we had Mark Thompson: You don’t think that counts for— a division on our Delegated Legislation Committee. It Chair: No, it does count but I am just giving you is quite unusual, hence my delay. an example. The last election was one of the most Mark Thompson: I have asked for your YouView box extraordinary outcomes, profound constitutional to be brought here, so I can give it to you personally implications for this country. Were you happy that the but it hasn’t arrived yet. BBC had as commentators on it Bruce Forsyth and Dr Coffey: As you know, I am very excited about the Joan Collins? imminent launch of YouView, and I was really hoping Mark Thompson: I think you should be careful, it was going to be ready for the Olympics on a wide though, because I thought the BBC covered in 2010 basis, partly because of the commercial opportunity to election night but crucially the days after the election. be able to go and watch every single hour of the What is fascinating is I think in previous— Olympics at any one point, which I believe from Ev 14 Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson memory was the original vision. We heard from a search box or a kind of QWERTY keyboard. They good source today that, although there are a few out want something that feels like television, but which on trial, the reality is the launch will not happen until gives them more choice and more functionality than the autumn. I seem to recall before it would definitely television. By combining conventional TV with the be ready by the Olympics. David Abraham said that web is the right way forward, and I think the user from Channel 4, “Absolutely, it will be ready. It won’t experience now, the interface is very, very exciting. I be ready in time for the Jubilee but it will be ready think it is going to be a very, very good thing indeed. by the Olympics”. What has happened? I think if you want me to predict—it is possibly a Mark Thompson: I believe we have hundreds of fool’s errand to predict—I think the take up on it will boxes out currently; hundreds—400. be very rapid. We want to make sure, just as we did Dr Coffey: You can’t go to a shop and buy one. with iPlayer, we have a completely stable product that Mark Thompson: We will have thousands ready, I really does deliver on day one. I went up on Christmas hope, before the Olympics. Day to try the iPlayer—Christmas Day 2007—frankly, Dr Coffey: You do? wondering what would happen when I went to the Mark Thompson: I do. website and clicked on the box. I clicked on the box, Dr Coffey: Excellent. and there was a big peak on the first day, it worked. Chair: That is not many in a population of 60 million. We want people to have the same experience with Mark Thompson: Well, as you know, I am very YouView, and I think that Alan Sugar, our chair—a ambitious. I don’t expect and I have never expected big character by the way—Richard Halton, our chief to get 60 million YouView boxes away. executive, and the team are doing a really good job, Chair: No. and I am very bullish about it. Mark Thompson: Historically, these things take time to get out to the market, but we have very, very large Q62 Dr Coffey: Well, without being too cheeky, do numbers. Our partners have very, very large numbers you think you should be saying to Alan Sugar, of orders for boxes now, tens of thousands of orders “You’re fired for not getting it out on time for the for boxes in the system. The boxes, in terms of the Olympics”? final stages in their development, are performing very Mark Thompson: I am hoping— well. There are still one or two hurdles to go through Dr Coffey: You are hoping it will be? but I am very bullish about YouView. I think it is Mark Thompson: I am hoping I am going to be able going to be a great success, and, if I may say so, I to give him a very big cigar to congratulate him. remember reading about the iPlayer, which was also frankly a rather troubled project that arrived about 18 Q63 Chair: 40 days; it is not very long. Within the months/two years after we originally hoped it to. Just next 40 days— at the moment when the obits for iPlayer were being Mark Thompson: We already have hundreds of boxes written and people congratulating themselves on out there already in— predicting what a terrible thing it was going to be, we Chair: How have they got them, because I have not launched it and it has been one of the biggest things seen any? the BBC has ever done. I think YouView is looking Dr Coffey: There is a trial, isn’t there? really good actually. It is true we will not have a very, Chair: Oh, so these are self-selecting? very large number of boxes out there in time for the Dr Coffey: I don’t know, but I can’t— Olympics. I do hope we will have an opportunity to Mark Thompson: It is a mixture; it is a mixture. demonstrate to the Committee, when you want to. That would really help if I could read it, but there Q64 Dr Coffey: Can I ask you about the exit from we go. TV centre? Obviously technology is one of the big challenges there and trying to unpick many years of Q61 Dr Coffey: I share your excitement. I have seen all that wonderful thing. What kind of lessons have a bit of a demo, admittedly not a live one, and I seem you learned from other things that you hope can be to recall when Freeview came out it was really the carried forward to try to make sure it is done as European Championship some time ago. It must have efficiently as possible? We all know it costs about— been 2008, or perhaps earlier, when ITV pushed out what is it?—£2 million a month to keep TV centre the matches on ITV4, and you had to get Freeview if running. you wanted to watch all that. I just wonder if you have Mark Thompson: We have recently successfully missed your commercial opportunity really? completed Pacific Quay, which is a full broadcast Mark Thompson: I think the key thing is IPTV turns production centre, and Salford Quays. The new out to be quite difficult to do. Google and Apple are Broadcasting House is coming on stream now, and all two of the most successful and most powerful of these projects are delivering now on time and on technology companies in the world. I think if they or under budget. We are getting much, much better at were here today they would accept that neither Google trying to understand these things and we are going to or Apple are yet satisfied that, despite the fact they try to bring all of those learnings into the television have been working very hard on this, they have yet centre. The thing about television centre is it is partly found a killer solution. I believe that the philosophy a business of vacating a particular set of premises, we are bringing to bear with YouView, which I have indeed selling those premises. It is also an opportunity had a significant part in formulating, which is to completely refresh a lot of equipment that, as you essentially that people will want this device or want a know, is now on its last legs. Television centre is television-like experience. They don’t want a kind of absolutely—has been for some years—teetering on Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 15

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson the edge because a lot of the underlying technology, to turn to in the executive board from Mike Lynch indeed, power and water mains are way, way beyond and others. But I think having a body that gives the their design life. BBC the licence fee, and that is the ultimate, if you So what we hope we can do is look at the other big like, shareholder on behalf of the public with the BBC BBC projects. The other massive project we have not does work. People say, “Can’t that be Ofcom?” I think talked about is switchover. It is something that is Ofcom’s job is slightly different, actually. Ofcom’s job fascinating after eight years. This was flagged as one is more of a pan-industry body. It is much more a of the biggest topics when I arrived as Director body that is there to review. If for example Ofcom is General. A number of worthies—I think that David going to do a review of the whole of commercial Elstein came here and said, “I’ll take off my hat. This media in the matter of plurality in future years, would is the biggest civil engineering project in British it be really appropriate they were also spending the history. You’re giving it to the BBC. They haven’t a licence fee inside the BBC? As it happens, I think the clue”. It has gone very smoothly. current model has a lot to be said for it but, as I say— Dr Coffey: It has, yes. Dr Coffey: I will send you my paper. Can I just say, Mark Thompson: It has gone very, very smoothly. I finally, thank you for doing what you did for local think we are now getting very good, as an radio. I really appreciate it. I think colleagues around organisation, at the integration of project management the country really appreciate that the local area has of all the skills you need to deliver these projects. So been served— I hope we can bring it all to bear on television centre. Mark Thompson: Thank you. Dr Coffey:—and also sports programming, so thank Q65 Dr Coffey: Can I ask one last question about you. the relationship with the trust. I don’t know if you do know that my view, my hope, ambition, is to try to Q66 Chair: Just while we are on governance. As you persuade the Government to remove the trust and put know, because you received a report of it, I was doing the board back together as one. Are there any lessons an RTS event last night, and Trevor Phillips was asked you have learned from the trust relationship on why what he looked for from the next Director General, you think they should stay separate, or what advantage and he said, “Somebody who is willing to say to Chris can you see if they could recombine? You have non- Patten, ‘Get out of my office. That’s not your job’”. execs now on your board— Have you ever said that to either Chris or any of his Mark Thompson: I do. predecessors, and do you agree that there may come Dr Coffey:—and I wonder why that can’t be put times when the Director General has to say that? back together? Mark Thompson: It is theoretically possible. I don’t Mark Thompson: Can I say that one of things I am believe that so far that has been a significant issue. In going to really miss is governance weekly and the central task of the editorial management of the opening up each week the sort of fascinating and BBC, it is absolutely understood crystal clear that, endless debate about the governance of the BBC, but although of course the trust has a role in agreeing, as I wish you all well with it. it were, broad editorial strategy, the editor-in-chief has Firstly, practically, I think the present arrangement is to have the ownership of programmes before they are working pretty well. In the early years of the trust broadcast and the trust’s job is to review the there was a lot of anxiety about this, but I think two programmes and content after it has been made public things happened. One, I think under Michael Lyons and broadcast. I think that I would say more generally the trust genuinely began to win the confidence of with strategy it has been a good working relationship other broadcast and other media players, that it was that has involved quite a lot of challenge, but I have taking the market impact of the BBC seriously. I think not felt that the trust has been in a sense trying to do also the trust’s service reviews have begun to persuade my job. I believed that there were very strong public people at large—a piece by David Liddiment in the value arguments in favour of local TV, and local TV paper today, alongside the service licence review of may proceed in another way, but I thought there were BBC 1—that the trust is much more at arm’s length strong public arguments for, in a sense, taking the in terms of reviewing the BBC’s performance, than BBC’s local offering, local radio, and thinking about the BBC governors were beforehand. There may be a television expression of that as well as a radio more than one way of skinning this particular cat, and expression. The trust disagreed with that. There have doubtless to say there will be many happy hours been one or two points along the road where the trust discussing different models. The trouble with an has taken a different view. I think if the trust had not integrated model is the issue of who holds the BBC done that sometimes you would be asking a different to account for the spending of the licence fee. The question. That is, how on earth can you say this BBC gets a lot of public money, and ideally you want governance system is working if it always agrees with an arm’s length body that is looking at whether the what you want to do? I would say, in terms of the money, as it were, it gives to the BBC is being spent broad thrust of what I have wanted to do with the well. If the people who are doing that are integrated BBC, I have had a lot of support from the governors completely with the management, the danger is you in the Trust and I have not felt them, as it were, don’t get quite the amount of accountability you want. getting in my way or trying to climb into the driving I think having non-executives on the executive board seat. has been very good, because I think it brings lots of private sector and business expertise into the BBC. So Q67 Chair: You have never felt improper political in areas like technology, we have really great advice pressure has been brought to bear? Ev 16 Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson

Mark Thompson: Certainly not from the trust. I have a future in politics when you step down from talked about moments where, interestingly enough this job That was the stickiest of wickets, but you after these big sporting events, I thought that ploughed on regardless. I am going to stop my alarm, politicians and others were quite getting close, if I can sorry. That is my alarm. That was not planned. put it like that. It did not have any effect because we Mark Thompson: We are still on the river, I think. did not in any way condone it or bow to it or change Mrs Mensch: I have to ask you, though, about one our views because of it. But generally this has not particular story. I know it is difficult to concentrate on been a period where— one story but this is the most reaction I have ever had Chair: Is this in sporting events? for anything in all my time in politics and it came Mark Thompson: Sorry, I mean the series of from the Jewish community about the BBC’s total Panoramas that I mentioned that were timed very non-coverage of the Fogel massacre in Itamar. This close to major sporting events and there was a slight happened just after we confirmed Chris Patten as the sense, as it were, on the phone of, “Is it absolutely Chairman of the BBC Trust, and on that occasion I necessary, just as we were trying to get the 2012 asked him about the BBC’s perceived bias towards Games, to target individual members of the IOC for a Israel and Jews, about the report that was suppressed Panorama ...?” Politicians often have very strong and the BBC fought against. Chris Patten said there views about what we do and they have absolutely was no such bias. I asked him what he would do if he every right to do that and I have never objected to were shown an example of anti-Semitism and he said personal representations from politicians morning, he would ultimately take it to the BBC Trust. Two noon and night. That is completely fair. I do not think days after that some terrorists entered the house of that the BBC should be regarded as being so family in Itamar. They killed the entire family. They sacrosanct you cannot phone up and say, “What the slit the throats of the four year old child. They hacked bloody hell just happened there?”, and some the head off a baby who was three months old and left politicians do that and I think that is completely her decapitated corpse in her bed. The BBC ran the reasonable. I would rather they did that than fester story on BBC Radio 4 on the 8 am news as a lead away in silence. item and they put it on their website for most of the What is interesting is I think one of the things that day but they never subsequently touched on it in happened by happenstance is that I came into this job broadcasts in any of their outlets whether on radio or just after there had been an almighty car crash, namely even as a minor story on the 24-hour rolling news the Gilligan/Kelly/Hutton crisis, for the organisation, coverage on BBC News 24. They left it completely and I think almost everyone, BBC, BBC governing alone. body, but also I think all the parties were slightly I only found out about it after the event because there taken aback about what that felt like. I think there was had been no coverage from an American blogger a sense of looking over precipice and not wanting to entitled Dead Jews is No News. The more I went into go there again. I would say generally that I would it the more shocked I was. I wrote a little piece for want to commend the successive Governments and the Telegraph. I remember it was the day of the Oppositions in generally taking the independence of Budget and was absolutely overwhelmed by the the BBC seriously, and more generally I would say response from the Jewish community both here and being good partners. I think it has been a good period. abroad. There was a huge feeling that the BBC just I would also say that I have felt that although I have had the bad luck sometimes to have had some pretty did not care. That if a settler had entered the home of difficult things happening that needed to be explained a Palestinian family, slit the throat of a four year old I have generally found in this Committee, and in other and left them to die, hacked off the head of a baby, parliamentary committees—I think I have had getting that the BBC would have covered that massacre. on for 20 parliamentary appearances as Director It is worth saying that when I pursued this, Helen General—generally firm but fair questioning and a fair Boaden, as Director of News, did give me an apology hearing in Parliament. for the BBC not having covered the incident. She said that because it was a massacre of an entire family the Q68 Mrs Mensch: Mr Thompson, I want to start by BBC ought to have covered the incident and the saying I think you have been extremely effective in Jewish Chronicle and others were grateful to receive your job and congratulate you on it, because I am that. Can I just ask you to comment on the total lack going to ask you a difficult question, and like of coverage on any outlet apart from that one story in politicians there is no gratitude in politics—nobody the morning of that massacre and just ask you to give ever wants to hear about what went right—they only words of reassurance to the Jewish community that ever ask you nasty questions about things that went the BBC, and I am sure it does, tries very hard to be wrong so I would like to preface this by saying I think even-handed in its coverage of this intractable you have done a terrific job. May I also say that for problem in the Middle East? me you have been one of the strongest witnesses we Mark Thompson: Firstly, I think on the story, very have had in appearances before the Committee. You straightforwardly, we got it wrong. We have said that. always push back and have done a terrific job of Helen Boaden— defending the BBC. Mrs Mensch: Grateful to hear you say that. Mark Thompson: Let us see how I do now. Mark Thompson:—our Director of News, she said Mrs Mensch:. Your defence of the River Pageant that. We got it wrong. It was, you will recall, a very coverage today would do the proudest spin doctor busy news period. genuinely absolutely fine. That is quite amazing. You Mrs Mensch: I do recall that. Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 17

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson

Mark Thompson: The bombing had started in Libya, categorically that through your long period in office the Japanese tsunami was still running and news that you were never invited in by front doors, back editors were under a lot of pressure. Having said that, doors, or through the attic or anywhere else in order it was certainly an atrocity that should have been for people, or any party politician to get your support, covered across our news bulletins that day, and we or do we need to wait for your memoirs? accept that. I think that is evidence of, if you like, Mark Thompson: It must be said that I bump into editorial error. I do not think it should be taken as, politicians, Ministers and indeed Prime Ministers and I certainly do not believe it is evidence of, as it quite often and I often have had conversations with were, systemic bias. I believe that we do try very, them, but there have been no back doors or sky lights. very hard to cover that story objectively and to reflect No politician has ever asked me to change the first suffering on both sides, or every side, of that conflict. words of the 10 o’clock news to “Vote Tory” or “Vote We tried, for example, during incidents where there Labour”. As I say, I think politicians of all parties has been a very big humanitarian story inside Gaza have been respectful of the BBC’s independence. Just also to show the effects of rockets in Sderot and as a matter of common sense, one of the reasons that elsewhere. More broadly, you will recall, and I came perhaps politicians spend less time, as it were, under some stick myself, I also believed that the lobbying us than they might be lobbying others is that sensitivity of this story and the character of the story we do not try to tell people how to vote. Our job is to meant that the BBC should not show a Disaster and try to give people, if you like, the information and the Emergency Committee appeal for Gaza because of the tools they need to make up their own mind about risk of people— stories. We are in a slightly different position I think Mrs Mensch: I do remember that. from newspaper editors and proprietors. Mark Thompson: Many, many people thought I was wrong. I believe I was right and the reason I think that Q70 Jim Sheridan: Leveson—are you quite happy we were right was because, again, I think it might with the way things are going? have given the sense that the BBC was more Mark Thompson: That is a rather leading question. I favourable and more sympathetic to one side of that gave evidence for a couple of hours in front of Lord dispute than the other. Israel/Palestine is one of these Leveson. That was okay. What I would say, and I say issues—it is not the only one, by the way. Kashmir this to my colleagues inside the BBC, is that it is very and Sri Lanka, in a South Asian context, would be easy to jump to conclusions. Where we are at the just as hot in terms of people’s sensitivity and the moment is Lord Leveson is taking evidence, which, of sense of the vitalness of being even-handed where you course, like most people I find very interesting. Lord have to be constantly careful of what you do. Leveson has not written his report. We do not yet What we have done more broadly, we have appointed, know what the conclusions of part one of Leveson in my time, Jeremy Bowen as Middle East editor to are. Secondly, a number of people have been arrested. try to make sure that in coverage of Israel/Palestine Some people have been charged. We have not yet seen and more broadly the Middle East, not only do we any conclusions about it and I think in a way it is very cover point stories, hard news stories on the day, but important for the BBC and for other media providers also we have an editor who is thinking and can help to remember—it seems hard to believe—that we are the public understand the context. Often, I think, still in the quite early stages of this and there are many broadcasters get into trouble when, in a sense, either years possibly before we fully understand what the reporters themselves or perhaps the public do not happened. understand the historical and geographical context within which things happen. Israel/Palestine, I think, Q71 Steve Rotheram: I do not think we are going to is particularly an example of a story where what the get through all the questions that we would like to story looks like depends partly on what geographical pose, but, purely in the interest of balance, can I take lens you apply to it and the broader you get the more the opportunity to applaud the BBC for their coverage you understand why things happen the way they do. I of the problems of racism in Ukraine and Poland. I would definitely want to say— believe that forewarning people of those dangers Mrs Mensch: It is a great opportunity to— before they make their travel plans was the right thing Mark Thompson:—to all our audiences, of course to to do. There are always concerns about the way the include our Jewish and Israeli audiences here and BBC spends licence fee payers’ money. There might around the world—we broadcast around the world— be a threshold for complaints but is there such a thing that we do want to make sure that we are fair and as a too high remuneration package even if it is line impartial in the way we cover this story. with what other broadcasters are paying? Mrs Mensch: You recognise clearly that the BBC Mark Thompson: To state the obvious, the BBC should have covered the Fogel massacre. should always be trying to strike the best bargain it Mark Thompson: In this case I believe that we made can in everything it sources and that includes on air a mistake, yes. talent and it also includes its executives and its staff. Mrs Mensch: Thank you very much. The BBC has never, certainly with senior managers and I think arguably with its stars, sought to pay as Q69 Jim Sheridan: You are probably aware that a much as commercial broadcasters. It should always number of views are being expressed about Leveson. try to get the biggest discount it can. With the most Without opening up the whole Leveson inquiry—you senior managers the policy is to get somebody may or may not wish to comment on what is independent to work out what the external commercial happening with Leveson—but can you tell us quite market would be and then apply a discount of between Ev 18 Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson

50% and 80%. We try to pay 50% to 80% less than and culture. We hope that we will get plenty of what the outside expert says is the going rate. employment, independent producers and also I would say with stars we try to do something similar. production staff from Liverpool and Merseyside As public interest and indeed public concern about the working with us both in Salford and in London, and whole topic of top pay has increased we have tried to we hope that we can make the case for a visible BBC react to that. We have cut the numbers of senior that is serving Merseyside and that is therefore worthy managers and the pay bill of senior managers by at of support. least a quarter. We have brought the total we spend on Steve Rotheram: Chair, just go back on Louise top pay for on air talent down so we are trying to react Mensch’s comments, he could be a politician, couldn’t to that. We are painfully aware that the licence fee is he, because he did not answer the question? paid by everyone in the country and some of the Mark Thompson: The answer is I am not going to people paying the licence fee are on very, very modest announce — incomes indeed. You always have to bear that in mind when you are thinking about what do you pay X or Y. Q74 Steve Rotheram: Might the BBC Sports At the same time, the public are also very clear they Personality be returning to Liverpool? want the very best from us and unfortunately some Mark Thompson: It is a great idea that I will pass on things, football rights is a good example, if you want to my colleagues. to get Premiership highlights you have to pay a lot of Jim Sheridan: You could always invite Kelvin money and, in that case, that means more than £60 MacKenzie to do the presentation. You would sell million a year for the rights. tickets for that.

Q72 Steve Rotheram: But you do not believe that Q75 Mr Sutcliffe: Just moving on now, Mark, to star performers would move away from the BBC just succession. We have heard earlier there are a number because you cannot compete pound for pound? of potential candidates that may succeed you. Do you Mark Thompson: The battle to hang on to people see that as a good thing or do you see that as a when you are paying them less than they would get negative? elsewhere is constant. I am not complaining about it, Mark Thompson: That what? but when I was working in Features and Factual Mr Sutcliffe: The fact that there may be a potential Programme and indeed in Entertainment in the 1980s number of candidates as opposed to somebody that there was a classic move whereby people moved from you might have brought on as a deputy or something Channel 4 to the BBC. They would be found by like that? Channel 4, and they would move across to the BBC. Mark Thompson: I have seen one of my roles as to The traffic is now largely the other way. Mary Portas, make sure that there are a number of internal Jamie Oliver are two examples of people who have, candidates who could be considered in this process. partly because there are more commercial One of the jobs of the Chief Executive is to make sure opportunities, been found by the BBC and moved the that you have a succession plan and you have a other way. I think the BBC is becoming in many ways number of people—for all sorts of reasons, not least the broadcaster who finds talent, much of which will because people leave or illness or whatever—who you then graduate to other broadcasters. Although that can hand on heart believe could do the job well. That then be very frustrating for my colleagues, I think the fact gives, in this case, the governing body of the BBC the that you find talent and then they move away to more chance to benchmark those candidates against the best lucrative jobs in other broadcasters is probably the of the external field. I have been advising the trust for system working. In other words, it is a good use of a couple of years now on my thoughts about the the licence fee to find new talent and then get people external field as well, so that they have the best to move elsewhere. possible choices. No, I think it is a good thing. I think, to be honest, I would say historically it has been quite Q73 Steve Rotheram: You mentioned that lots of rare, but it is a good thing when the BBC itself has people pay a licence fee from lots of different regions. got a number of candidates but also there are some Although we have Salford Quays in the north-west, strong candidates from outside. Liverpool does not do as well proportionally as other areas in the northwest, so—hopefully you will be able Q76 Chair: So you did have a succession plan, to second guess where I am going with this one is— because one of the criticisms is that you did not appear when will the BBC Sports Personality of the Year to have one? Awards return to Liverpool, as it was such a massive Mark Thompson: If I may say so, that is not based success in 2008? on any fact. Of course there has been a succession Mark Thompson: I was there on the night and it was plan. I think that is made up as it were. great. What I would say is—and I would say this if Chair: That is no surprise given your— you were an MP representing another constituency as Mark Thompson: People confused two different well—Liverpool and broader Merseyside is a good things one of which is, is there is a single chosen heir example of a very important big population centre. apparent? The answer is no. There is a succession There is Radio Merseyside and big events from time plan, i.e. a number of people to whom we tried to give to time, like Sports Personality. We brought the big the right experiences and the right development, the global event for BBC Worldwide, Showcase, to right promotions so they can be considered. But also Liverpool. We brought TV buyers from all over the we thought extremely hard about the external market. world to Liverpool. We got behind Liverpool capital Indeed one of the things we did some years ago was Culture, Media and Sport Committee: Evidence Ev 19

19 June 2012 Mark Thompson appoint a headhunter who has gone on to be the candidate might take slightly longer. We will then headhunter who is involved in the present process to work out a date. My own view is that extended find the next head of our television division, BBC handovers are not a good idea and so I would hope Vision. This was just over a year ago. George that that handover will happen sooner rather than later, Entwistle was eventually appointed to that role but perhaps September, but it might be a little bit later in one of the things that headhunter was doing in the the autumn, we will see. context initially of trying to find a head of Vision was looking astutely around the world to see what talent Q78 Chair: When this Committee comes to consider was out there that we could consider for what I knew the BBC’s annual report I am sure you hope was coming up, which was this other job. desperately that you will not be back in this chair, but it is possible you could still be? Q77 Chair: When do you expect to wave goodbye Mark Thompson: It is always a pleasure, but in this to the BBC? case it may be a pleasure foregone. Mark Thompson: We would like to break the habit of Chair: On behalf of the Committee, I thank you not a lifetime and achieve, if we can, a smooth transition. just for this afternoon but for the help you have given What I am hoping is the following things will happen: to the Committee throughout your time and wish you that a successor will be appointed. We will then find success in whatever new role you decide to take on. out when the successor might be available to start. Mark Thompson: Thank you, Chairman. Thank you All things being equal you would expect an internal very much. candidate to be available rather quickly. An external

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