SS267.mp3

This is July 1, 1968, and we are at WMC, and we are interviewing Reverend James Lawson. This is David Yellin, and Bill Thomas.

David Yellin: Now, who’s going to talk?

Bill Thomas: Well, we probably both will. But, I’ll tell you, we can cut this as short as possible.

David Yellin: Yeah, let’s say that this is the first of several interviews, okay, hopefully.

Bill Thomas: I ordinarily would go into the personal background, and that sort of thing, but to get away from that, to speed things up to the general area, could you tell us about the invitation to Reverend King, and how this came about (muffled).

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: On February 22, it became clear, I think for the first time, through the hearing, the council hearing that became a demonstration on our part, that the dimensions of the sanitation strike were beyond the simple question of unionism in Memphis. Of course, this was something that many of us had been saying, anyway, from the very beginning, that racism was the picture, as well as the poverty that grows out of racism -- that is growing out of racism in America. But, with that demonstration this became clear. Then on the 23rd, the council meeting that had been called especially for us, and that proved to be quite abortive, the sub-committee, which finally did come around to it, it began to listen and hear, was not even given a chance to report at that council meeting. So, we marched; that march was subsequently broken up by the police. Many of us were maced.

Bill Thomas: You were in that march and you were maced?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Oh, yes. I was in that march from its inception. And, was maced. In fact, was maced as I tried to stop the incident that the police said provoked the macing. But of course, the incident which did occur, could have easily been isolated. There was no cause for suddenly macing people all up and down that line with 97% of the people at least probably having not the slightest idea of what or why.

David Yellin: The incident was of course the car rocking.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah, the car rocking, which was provoked again by the car, by whoever drove the car.

David Yellin: It was across the line.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yes, it was. The pictures clearly prove, show it inside that white line by this time.

David Yellin: And you say you did try to break that up?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Oh, yes. I turned around because I had stopped confrontations with officers on several occasions as I walked along. Told some of the younger officers to relax, that we were orderly, and that things were under control. You know, they didn’t have to be too (muffled).

David Yellin: Why did you feel you had to?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: What’s that?

David Yellin: Tell them to relax?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Well, because they were, they were I think under some orders apparently to act the usual white policemen in Memphis, with the movement. So, I felt that I was trying to help them see that, you know, let’s get off that kick. Let’s be human. We’ll get along. We are going to march down. It’s going to be peaceful, so don’t get excited about it, and I had turned earlier and tried to stop the cars from continuing to push in on the men. And, in turn told the men, you know, don’t let these guys provoke you into doing something rash, that will not be helpful to the cause. Well, in any case, this Friday the 23rd of February then, I think showed many of the people beyond a shadow of a doubt that we were in a real struggle. So, of course that night and the next day, with over 100 ministers together, the movement became a daily march, boycotts of the downtown area, the newspapers, and what not. This is when these steps were taken, and were announced then that Sunday. Well, and also then, of course, we began nightly mass meetings. Um, I do not have all my, you know I don’t have my notes in front of me.

David Yellin: Well, we can go over all of this (muffled).

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: But, somewhere along this line, somewhere after this week, the strategy committee, of which of course I was chairman, decided that we wanted to bring into these mass meetings major national figures. And, encourage them and to bring them in to speak to the people, to encourage the people. Let the people know that we were not alone in this struggle in Memphis. Also, this would tend to bring nationwide television, because we were quite persuaded that the real story of Memphis was not getting out.

Bill Thomas: Through the local (muffled).

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah, through the local business. It wasn’t getting beyond Memphis.

David Yellin: Not only local press, but local broadcast.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah, local broadcasting, local UPI, API channels and all.

So, consequently we made the decision in the strategy committee to start by trying to invite Roy Wilkins in. Then, Baird Ruston out.

David Yellin: Can I ask something? Why Roy Wilkins first? Was there any reason for this sequence?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yes, the basic reason is because, the basic reason was because if -- is a political question. I having worked closely with Martin King over the years, and with the NAACP, knew full well that if Martin King came in first, there might be a tendency in the part of Roy Wilkins to say, well, he was invited first, and we had that. So, my thought was that it would be better, if Martin didn’t mind coming afterward, wouldn’t mind being invited second or third or fourth.

David Yellin: Oh, I see.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Well, this was the basic issue. So, I suggested that we invite in Roy Wilkins first.

David Yellin: But, Dr. King and all of them, were they all thought of as sort of at the same time, or did you think that…?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: No, we listed Roy Wilkins and Baird Ruston for the first two as I recall, and King we said would be somewhere.

David Yellin: But you were aiming towards Dr. King?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: We definitely were aiming towards Dr. King even then. So, we were able then to get Roy Wilkins to come in. And, I have forgotten now the night when that was. I would have to look at my own notes to do it. And, we also on the same night were able to get Baird Ruston to come in. So, and then of course the invitation was tendered after that to Martin Luther King. Now, I started some preliminary conversations with Dr. King and his secretary, and with Andy Young some days before we were able to get him. Initially he was at, my first conversations with him, he was at a point of exhaustion, and had been ordered by the doctor to rest absolutely.

David Yellin: Was that when he was in Chicago?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Um, no. I can’t remember now. I talked to him of course in this time in Atlanta, to his secretary.

David Yellin: You called him?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah, to his secretary, and I don’t remember who all I talked to there. In any case, the point was that during this period he said that he simply had to take the doctor’s advice, particularly since he was already, the Poor People’s

Campaign was then ahead of him, that he had been told that he would drop if he did not rest. So, he went off to Mexico as I recall, to take 5 or 6 days in the sun and relax and rest. But, he…

David Yellin: Do you remember about when this was?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Oh, I am not really sure. This might have been around the first week of March. I think I have the notes some place in my business.

David Yellin: We have here that March 5th you announced that you had invited Dr. King to Memphis. Would that mean that he had accepted?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: He had definitely said he would try to come, because he was deeply interested in what was going on, but that might have been that first week. He may have left Atlanta the 5th, and was going to be away until that Saturday night late. And, then of course I remained in contact with Andy, and Bernard Lee, and his secretary, Dora McDonald.

Bill Thomas: Reverend Lawson, what was Dr. King’s reaction? His first reaction to this? Do you recall that? Immediately favorable, uh?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yes, as I recall it was immediately favorable. He had seen notices in the press about the garbage strike.

Bill Thomas: Oh, he knew about it?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah, and I gave him some indication of what had gone on, and some indication of the fact that it was an important struggle already going on, and that the extent to which it was nonviolent, and that we were keeping it within the context of the work that we in the past had done. So, I announced -- I see you have I announced it on the 5th, and so the invitation I am sure was tendered by that time for sure. Now, somewhere in this period we pinned down the date, the time, and when he came back from Mexico he had a number of other responsibilities that he needed to carry out. And, just when we pinned down the 18th, I am not sure, but we did pin that down so that I knew, and well in advance in terms of days that he was coming on Monday the 18th.

Bill Thomas: He was working on the Poor People’s Campaign at that time, as I recall, and after that he went to Marks, Mississippi. I wonder if this was included in that itinerary.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yes, what happened was that they had planned an executive committee meeting for the 18th of March in Jackson, Mississippi. And he, what they did was to ask that that executive meeting would come to Memphis, and meet in Memphis instead so that he could stop in the midst of the meeting and come and speak, so that the 19th they left then for that Poor People’s, some of the preliminary work of the Poor People’s Campaign moving in for two or three days’ tours, and they did that.

Bill Thomas: And did they stay over night that night?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yes, they stayed over night the 18th?

Bill Thomas: Was it -- where was it?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: At the Lorraine Motel, yes. Because this is the motel he has always used when he has been in Memphis. No, I can’t remember for sure what date Andy Young confirmed that he would be coming the 18th for sure.

David Yellin: But, you worked through Andy Young.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Right. I talked to Andy the latter part of that week, and he gave me their numbers. They were going to be in Los Angeles over that weekend. They gave me their hotel numbers, and I talked to Andy at least once in Los Angeles about the whole context, because of course Andy was the person who would also tend to try to feed Dr. King the context and the immediate context of the situation into which he was going. Sunday afternoon the 17th.

David Yellin: It could be interesting, do you remember without belaboring the point, what the context was, I mean, or is that (muffled)?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Well again, just no, again it was chiefly just simply giving him some estimation of the structure of the movement, the intensity of the movement, what we were doing, what were the most recent events that had taken place. This is generally the idea, so that he would have it. Something of context of the sanitation workers themselves, some of their problems, some of their issues.

David Yellin: Did they have any questions?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Something about the mayor and his reaction, something about what other white leadership reaction. These were all the -- all these things were at one time or another talked about in the period of time. It’s relationship to the Poor People’s Campaign, it’s relationship to nonviolence, all of these things at different times with different people.

David Yellin: Were some of these prompted by some of their questions, probably?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Some were prompted by their questions, but having worked closely with these men over the years, I knew something of the type of questioning, their conversation and concerns that would be important for them, as they came into this situation.

Bill Thomas: And the relationship between the sanitation workers and the Poor People’s Campaign, it would seem to me that it would (muffled).

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yes, exactly, very much so. This is very true. Of course, in this time I told Andy about (muffled) where the meeting would be Monday night, and it’s seating capacity, (muffled) filled to capacity and more. Because of course we were then taking our visiting speakers, we would take them to Mason Temple, and we were generally packing the temple for them. So, this was all relayed to Andy to convey it to Martin King. Now, in this last week, I do not remember if I talked to Martin directly. I did talk to him, however, I know the 17th.

David Yellin: Just as an aside, what did you call him? Martin?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Martin, yes. I was Jim, he was Martin, and this has been for, since we met. I did call him at his hotel in Los Angeles Sunday afternoon, the 17th, because I wanted to be certain that he had been filled in on some of the details, and…

David Yellin: Do you remember where he was staying?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: I may have it down some place, but I do not remember now where he was staying. I remember asking him as an illustration, “Did Andy tell you that tomorrow night you’ll be speaking to maybe 10,000 people or so in Mason Temple?” He said no, he didn’t realize that. And then I went on to say to him, yes that while he had never spoken there before when he had been in Memphis, we were packing Mason Temple for some of our mass meetings, so that he could plan, and I gave him details about where it came from. He of course was familiar with the Church of God in Christ, and Bishop Mason, who was the founder of that church, and the fact that this was the international headquarters of it. So, he was very much interested in this, and I felt part of the reason for it was of course that it was quite unusual in the south to have mass meetings where you could get 10,000 people into the same building, and I have been in a lot of them in many of the major campaigns, and you never got places like that. So, this was really something new in terms of the kinds of things that we have done in movements like this before. And, he didn’t know the exact time that he was arriving, because he said that Andy by this time had left him, and he said that he had taken that with him, but assured me that I would know in plenty of time to be able to pick him up at the airport and all, but that he would want me to pick him up. Then, there was some chitchat of one kind or another and we hung up, recognizing that we would see each other the next day.

David Yellin: Just, if you can, Jim, just do you recall the chitchat, while we’re on it?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Um, I’m not sure what it related to now.

David Yellin: Okay.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: So, that’s essentially how the invitation was tendered, and how it was consummated.

Bill Thomas: And, of course because of the (muffled) with SCLC, and your relationship with Dr. King, that’s why you were the logical one to make the contact and that sort of thing.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Right, this is right.

Bill Thomas: Could you go ahead and tell us about when he came in?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Well, here again, I think that we’d have to check when that flight came in. It came in, as I remember somewhere between 7:10, I think, and 8:00.

Bill Thomas: Oh dear, cutting it close.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Of course, Jesse Epps and I had gone by the temple early before the plane time, and before the hour of the meeting. When we got there, the place was already filled to capacity. We thought we were getting there in plenty of time. We found (muffled).

David Yellin: What kind of advertising did you do prior?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Well, our general advertising was always to announce the place of the meeting over WDIE, WLOK, pass it around at the union hall meetings, and of course then try to announce at the previous mass meeting each night week, and then to pass it out on some of the leaflets that we handed out to put down the next mass meeting, or a series of mass meetings at places. Of course, we had phone -- we had many people who were on their phones all the time calling people.

Bill Thomas: On a committee?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah. So, this was the usual process, but of course the sheer fact of his coming, became the major news of the day for Memphis on the radio and TV, and that of course was also promotion for the meeting that night. He came in, as I remember, with Andy Young only. The two of them came together. We, Jesse and I, as we came from the meeting, we decided that we would tease him, that Jesse would start off by telling him that Jim was wrong. He had told him that he would be speaking, that I had told him he would be speaking before probably 10,000 people, and that we found out just tonight that that was a mistake, you know. He said, “Well, is that right?” And then Jesse went on -- you’re going to be speaking now tonight before 15,000 people because there is nothing, no one else can get in there. He laughed.

David Yellin: Let me guess, he was mighty pleased?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Then he made an explanation about the fact that this was really some movement, that this was vastly more significant than any campaign that they had seen, when that many folk would get into a single mass meeting for, because this was something that we hadn’t seen before.

Bill Thomas: Just the fact that such a crowd would come indicated to him certainly that there was something.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah, and he began then to; I felt that he began then to become very much aware of how really crucial this effort was in Memphis, and of the fact that it was a key struggle along the lines of his own work, and effort.

Bill Thomas: I was in that meeting that night, and I don’t know (muffled) and I don’t think -- if we would have left our place we would have never gotten back in.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: That’s right. That is very true.

Bill Thomas: But, he did make the speech, and then sat down, and then got back up (muffled). So, when was the decision made?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: As we sat around there, we began to say to Andy and I have forgotten who else was there then, Jim Bevel I think, and Bernard Lee, and Martin. We began to say that he ought to, you know they ought to come back to Memphis and lead a big march. Of course, you may recall then his speech he said that if things were not going to change, then the people need to stop work altogether and pull the city to a halt, so it indicates the extent to which of course that he caught the mood of the movement, and was able to respond to it. He did that quite spontaneously.

Bill Thomas: He did that on his own, yes.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Although we had talked with him, coming in from the airport about some of the kinds of things that we saw as possible for the future, but he did this quite spontaneously, and responding to what he felt was to be the contagion of the movement. Now, during his speech, Andy did scribble a note based upon the conversation we were having there in the back of the speakers stand, rostrum. He scribbled a speech, and he scribbled rather little notes suggesting that we ought to return and lead a march, and put it up in front of Martin.

David Yellin: Muffled.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yes, during his speech.

Bill Thomas: While he was talking?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: While he was talking he slid this up, and of course put his name to it. But of course Martin did not respond to it at that time. Then when he sat down, Andy and I quickly got in front of him and started talking to him about this, and he was of course quite willing to return to lead such a march, and we then tried to quickly agree upon the date, and we agreed upon that following Friday.

David Yellin: You sure should’ve consulted the weather man.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: We agreed upon that Friday that he would return, and that would be work stoppage, and so he got up then, and said he would return to lead the march, and he wanted everyone to stay away from work.

David Yellin: Now, did you have to influence him in any way?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Oh, no. No.

Bill Thomas: The decision was really spontaneous.

David Yellin: So it was just, you posed it and he agreed, and so on. You don’t have the note do you?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: No, I do not have that note.

David Yellin: That would be what they call (muffled).

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: I suspect that that was thrown away for sure.

Bill Thomas: Do you know what it said?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: I have forgotten now. I remember only that it was a yellow piece of paper. Yes, I know. It was a yellow piece of paper that I took out of my pocket, because I carried either this pad, or one of these little small yellow tablet pads that you can easily write on in my pocket, and I pulled that out, and Andy scribbled on it, and then tore it out, and (muffled).

David Yellin: And it said?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: It mentioned the whole business of returning for a march, and I think we might have even put the date down, I am not sure.

David Yellin: Even at that time.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Suggested a date, because Andy knowing his schedule you see, could most suggest what date would be most possible for him to come back. He had these tours lined up in Mississippi and Georgia for that week. So, he knew that he could come back that Friday. And, in fact, when I called him, I called him Thursday night, and again early Friday morning, Thursday night during the snow.

David Yellin: Now, it’s the 21st and the 22nd.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Assuring him that -- told him about the meeting I had just come from. We had invited teachers of the city to come to a meeting that night. There

were 4 inches of snow by the time they got to the church, but we had over 150 teachers there.

Bill Thomas: I didn’t know anything about (muffled).

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: And, we wanted to talk to them.

David Yellin: These are black teachers?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Black teachers, of course many of them already were wanting to respond by staying away from work, so we were in a general discussion with them…

David Yellin: This was all grades?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: All grades and schools. We wanted to have a general discussion with them in order to help them make the decision easier.

Bill Thomas: Oh, for the children (muffled).

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah. More than half of them, of course, already came committed to the idea that they would not be in school Friday anyway, but we wanted to help them take the leadership to help other teachers as well.

Bill Thomas: Yes.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: And, to create a comradeship that would enable them to stand together. So, small group (muffled) met with Stenbert, in fact, Thursday afternoon. In fact, we were sitting in there; we were in a meeting when that snow started.

David Yellin: Oh, really?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: We were talking to him and trying to lay down to him what we felt were the issues.

David Yellin: And what did -- did anybody mention the snow while you were having the meeting?

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Oh, yes. We looked at it with some curiosity.

David Yellin: (Muffled/laughing).

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: No, no I really thought the stuff would stop.

Bill Thomas: Everybody did.

Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: And, I even thought the stuff would stop. I said, well that won’t last, you know, it’s too wet.

David Yellin: Well, look, we’re not going to be hoggish. We certainly appreciate it.

END OF RECORDING