SS267.Mp3 This Is July 1, 1968, and We Are at WMC, and We Are
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SS267.mp3 This is July 1, 1968, and we are at WMC, and we are interviewing Reverend James Lawson. This is David Yellin, and Bill Thomas. David Yellin: Now, who’s going to talk? Bill Thomas: Well, we probably both will. But, I’ll tell you, we can cut this as short as possible. David Yellin: Yeah, let’s say that this is the first of several interviews, okay, hopefully. Bill Thomas: I ordinarily would go into the personal background, and that sort of thing, but to get away from that, to speed things up to the general area, could you tell us about the invitation to Reverend King, and how this came about (muffled). Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: On February 22, it became clear, I think for the first time, through the hearing, the council hearing that became a demonstration on our part, that the dimensions of the sanitation strike were beyond the simple question of unionism in Memphis. Of course, this was something that many of us had been saying, anyway, from the very beginning, that racism was the picture, as well as the poverty that grows out of racism -- that is growing out of racism in America. But, with that demonstration this became clear. Then on the 23rd, the council meeting that had been called especially for us, and that proved to be quite abortive, the sub-committee, which finally did come around to it, it began to listen and hear, was not even given a chance to report at that council meeting. So, we marched; that march was subsequently broken up by the police. Many of us were maced. Bill Thomas: You were in that march and you were maced? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Oh, yes. I was in that march from its inception. And, was maced. In fact, was maced as I tried to stop the incident that the police said provoked the macing. But of course, the incident which did occur, could have easily been isolated. There was no cause for suddenly macing people all up and down that line with 97% of the people at least probably having not the slightest idea of what or why. David Yellin: The incident was of course the car rocking. Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah, the car rocking, which was provoked again by the car, by whoever drove the car. David Yellin: It was across the line. Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yes, it was. The pictures clearly prove, show it inside that white line by this time. David Yellin: And you say you did try to break that up? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Oh, yes. I turned around because I had stopped confrontations with officers on several occasions as I walked along. Told some of the younger officers to relax, that we were orderly, and that things were under control. You know, they didn’t have to be too (muffled). David Yellin: Why did you feel you had to? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: What’s that? David Yellin: Tell them to relax? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Well, because they were, they were I think under some orders apparently to act the usual white policemen in Memphis, with the movement. So, I felt that I was trying to help them see that, you know, let’s get off that kick. Let’s be human. We’ll get along. We are going to march down. It’s going to be peaceful, so don’t get excited about it, and I had turned earlier and tried to stop the cars from continuing to push in on the men. And, in turn told the men, you know, don’t let these guys provoke you into doing something rash, that will not be helpful to the cause. Well, in any case, this Friday the 23rd of February then, I think showed many of the people beyond a shadow of a doubt that we were in a real struggle. So, of course that night and the next day, with over 100 ministers together, the movement became a daily march, boycotts of the downtown area, the newspapers, and what not. This is when these steps were taken, and were announced then that Sunday. Well, and also then, of course, we began nightly mass meetings. Um, I do not have all my, you know I don’t have my notes in front of me. David Yellin: Well, we can go over all of this (muffled). Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: But, somewhere along this line, somewhere after this week, the strategy committee, of which of course I was chairman, decided that we wanted to bring into these mass meetings major national figures. And, encourage them and to bring them in to speak to the people, to encourage the people. Let the people know that we were not alone in this struggle in Memphis. Also, this would tend to bring nationwide television, because we were quite persuaded that the real story of Memphis was not getting out. Bill Thomas: Through the local (muffled). Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah, through the local business. It wasn’t getting beyond Memphis. David Yellin: Not only local press, but local broadcast. Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah, local broadcasting, local UPI, API channels and all. So, consequently we made the decision in the strategy committee to start by trying to invite Roy Wilkins in. Then, Baird Ruston out. David Yellin: Can I ask something? Why Roy Wilkins first? Was there any reason for this sequence? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yes, the basic reason is because, the basic reason was because if -- is a political question. I having worked closely with Martin King over the years, and with the NAACP, knew full well that if Martin King came in first, there might be a tendency in the part of Roy Wilkins to say, well, he was invited first, and we had that. So, my thought was that it would be better, if Martin didn’t mind coming afterward, wouldn’t mind being invited second or third or fourth. David Yellin: Oh, I see. Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Well, this was the basic issue. So, I suggested that we invite in Roy Wilkins first. David Yellin: But, Dr. King and all of them, were they all thought of as sort of at the same time, or did you think that…? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: No, we listed Roy Wilkins and Baird Ruston for the first two as I recall, and King we said would be somewhere. David Yellin: But you were aiming towards Dr. King? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: We definitely were aiming towards Dr. King even then. So, we were able then to get Roy Wilkins to come in. And, I have forgotten now the night when that was. I would have to look at my own notes to do it. And, we also on the same night were able to get Baird Ruston to come in. So, and then of course the invitation was tendered after that to Martin Luther King. Now, I started some preliminary conversations with Dr. King and his secretary, and with Andy Young some days before we were able to get him. Initially he was at, my first conversations with him, he was at a point of exhaustion, and had been ordered by the doctor to rest absolutely. David Yellin: Was that when he was in Chicago? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Um, no. I can’t remember now. I talked to him of course in this time in Atlanta, to his secretary. David Yellin: You called him? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah, to his secretary, and I don’t remember who all I talked to there. In any case, the point was that during this period he said that he simply had to take the doctor’s advice, particularly since he was already, the Poor People’s Campaign was then ahead of him, that he had been told that he would drop if he did not rest. So, he went off to Mexico as I recall, to take 5 or 6 days in the sun and relax and rest. But, he… David Yellin: Do you remember about when this was? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Oh, I am not really sure. This might have been around the first week of March. I think I have the notes some place in my business. David Yellin: We have here that March 5th you announced that you had invited Dr. King to Memphis. Would that mean that he had accepted? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: He had definitely said he would try to come, because he was deeply interested in what was going on, but that might have been that first week. He may have left Atlanta the 5th, and was going to be away until that Saturday night late. And, then of course I remained in contact with Andy, and Bernard Lee, and his secretary, Dora McDonald. Bill Thomas: Reverend Lawson, what was Dr. King’s reaction? His first reaction to this? Do you recall that? Immediately favorable, uh? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yes, as I recall it was immediately favorable. He had seen notices in the press about the garbage strike. Bill Thomas: Oh, he knew about it? Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr.: Yeah, and I gave him some indication of what had gone on, and some indication of the fact that it was an important struggle already going on, and that the extent to which it was nonviolent, and that we were keeping it within the context of the work that we in the past had done.