Vol. 709 Wednesday No. 54 25 March 2009

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Building Societies Supreme Court: Retirement Age Israel: Arms Embargo Privacy: Government Databases Coroners and Justice Bill First Reading Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2009 Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating Order 2009 Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating (Northern Ireland) Order 2009 Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2009 Occupational Pension Schemes (Levy Ceiling) Order 2009 Pension Protection Fund (Pension Compensation Cap) Order 2009 Financial Assistance Scheme and Incapacity Benefit (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2009 Occupational Pension Schemes (Contracting-out) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 European Parliamentary Elections (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2009 Motions to Approve Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill [HL] Report (First Day) Corporation Tax Bill Second Reading and remaining stages Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill [HL] Report (First Day) (continued)

Grand Committee Local Government (Structural Changes) (Miscellaneous Amendments and Other Provision) Order 2009 Cornwall (Electoral Arrangements and Consequential Amendments) Order 2009 Systematics and Taxonomy (S&TC Reports) Debated

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 651 Building Societies[25 MARCH 2009] Building Societies 652

Lord Myners: My Lords, there is a great deal in my House of Lords noble friend’s comments with which I agree. The demutualisation of building societies, approved, supported Wednesday, 25 March 2009. and encouraged by the members of those societies, has had regrettable conclusions. I, for one, regret that 3pm mutuals are less significant in the financial services sector, both in insurance and in banking, than they Prayers—read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the were originally. Mutual building societies exhibited a Lord Bishop of Chester. sense of community responsibility, attachment to their geography and, above all else, prudence and responsibility which is so different from the greed and self-serving Building Societies motivation of those who have led some of our banks Question which have got into so much difficulty. I deeply regret the fact that the prudence of building societies did not Asked By The Lord Bishop of Chester remain in the ascendancy and instead became subservient To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans to those who led our banks so monstrously badly. they have to support and develop mutual building Lord Newby: My Lords, given the noble Lord’s societies. support for the concept of mutuality, will he consider remutualising all or part of Northern Rock? The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): My Lords, the Government are committed Lord Myners: My Lords, it is too soon to consider to developing the mutuals sector. They supported a that issue but I very much welcome anything that can Private Member’s Bill, which will, among other things, be done to encourage the co-operative movement, the facilitate transfers between one type of mutual and credit union movement and mutuality. If, out of this another. This has recently been implemented for building disastrous affair, which has afflicted a small number of societies. our major banks, some opportunity for promoting In addition, building societies are eligible for assistance mutuality can be identified, I would be the first to under the Government’s recapitalisation and credit endorse it. guarantee schemes, and the Banking Act 2009 contains provisions which will help building societies to access Lord Trimble: My Lords, I welcome very much liquidity support and ease legislative restrictions on what the Minister has said about the mutual sector, their business. particularly his desire to support it, but is it not rather unfortunate that in recent months a mutual society The Lord Bishop of Chester: My Lords, I am grateful has collapsed because of the current financial problems to the Minister for his Answer, but may I press him on and has not had any significant help from the one point? Is it fair that the mutual societies, which on Government? I am referring of course to the Presbyterian the whole have conducted themselves in a fairly cautious Mutual Society which, alone among all the financial and risk-free way, should be required to pay such large institutions in trouble in the United Kingdom in recent contributions to the Financial Services Compensation months, has received no help at all from the Government. Scheme to make up for the failures of Icelandic banks I wonder what it is that the Government do not like and similar institutions? Is this consistent with the about it; is it perhaps because it is in Northern Ireland? Government’s support for the mutual societies? Noble Lords: Oh!

Lord Myners: My Lords, the right reverend Prelate Lord Myners: My Lords, I think that the reaction is not the first to make that point to the Treasury. The from noble Lords would affirm the fact that this has allocation of constituencies through the Financial Services nothing to do with the location of the society.Discussions Compensation Scheme was the subject of consultation are continuing with the Presbyterian Mutual Society and the current arrangement was welcomed by the and I am very aware of the concerns that have afflicted building society movement. However, it is based on that particular society. The Financial Services Authority retail deposits and it is recognised that this means that and the Treasury are in continuing discussions in a heavy burden is falling on building societies. The respect of the Presbyterian. I do not think that it Financial Services Authority is consulting on the proposals would be appropriate for me to say anything further at for allocation although I do not think that an this stage. announcement is imminent. Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, when the Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, does my noble friend Minister answered the right reverend Prelate, he said agree that the demutualisation of building societies that he was not the first to make the point about the was a major contributory cause of the crisis in the unfairness of the depositors’ protection scheme. Why banking sector, that in most cases where greed motivated can the Government not come forward with a new demutualisation the relevant demutualised societies proposal? As I understand it, the Government have collapsed, and that we now need to see the Government’s lent the money. This money is going to be paid back. It promise put into practice so that we can re-establish a will be paid through higher mortgage payments by wide range of mutual societies to strengthen the regional people who have mortgages with building societies base of our financial services? and lower interest payments for people who are depositors 653 Building Societies[LORDS] Supreme Court: Retirement Age 654

[LORD FORSYTH OF DRUMLEAN] Lord Pannick: My Lords, I thank the Minister for with building societies. Why do the Minister and the that slightly encouraging response. When he looks at Government not come forward with an alternative this matter again, will he agree that special consideration proposal that is fairer? Why do they keep hiding should apply to judges of the Supreme Court, in that behind consultations and the FSA and not actually they are the cream of the judiciary and inevitably take come forward with a policy that is fair? time to rise to the top, normally after serving for several years in the High Court and then in the Court Lord Myners: My Lords, we as a Government think of Appeal? Is it not therefore a terrible waste of our that consultation is the right way to proceed. It is most valuable judicial resources to dispose of them entirely consistent with mutuality, which is members after a short stay in the Supreme Court? expressing views having appraised themselves of the situation. The Financial Services Authority is consulting, Lord Bach: My Lords, as the House would expect, and we shall await the outcome of that consultation. the noble Lord puts a powerful argument. However, The Financial Services Compensation Scheme is there are arguments on the other side. We have to try administered by the FSA and it is a structure that was to strike a balance between retaining experience and endorsed when the Financial Services and Markets ensuring the flow of high-quality applicants to the Act was passed by Parliament. highest judicial office. When we consider this—we consider it all the time—it will be only in relation to Lord Dubs: My Lords— Supreme Court justices.

Baroness Sharples: My Lords— Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, is the Minister aware that a large number of High Court judges are Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, may I ask a question not appointed until the age of 55? Consequently, if that is slightly wider than the original Question? It they have to retire at 70, they will serve only 15 years relates to credit unions. Does the noble Lord agree on the Bench and it becomes difficult to get through to that the time is now very ripe indeed for the fullest the Supreme Court in time to do more than 18 months consideration to be given to government assistance to or two years. Is he also aware that the noble and credit unions, bearing in mind that there is ample learned Lord, Lord Carswell, the former Lord Chief evidence that more and more people are all the time Justice of Northern Ireland, was 70 when appointed—he falling into the clutches of loan sharks? is about to retire—but that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, was 67? The noble and learned Lord Myners: My Lords, the Government are already Lord, Lord Bingham, was also 67, I think; if we had giving considerable support to credit unions, and I lost him as the senior Law Lord, we would have lost a believe that I evidenced that in my answer to an earlier huge amount of jurisprudence. question. Lord Bach: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord Dubs: My Lords, will my noble friend give and learned Baroness for that information, some of further thought to credit unions, particularly in Northern which I knew already. She puts forward powerful Ireland, where there have been some serious difficulties? arguments, which will have to be balanced with other I do not expect him to have the answer now, but will he considerations that, I dare say, will be put in the next agree to look at the position there? They are certainly few minutes. working under serious constraints and are not able to work as competitively as credit unions either in Britain Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, I had or in the Republic. responsibility for introducing to Parliament the Act on which this difficulty arises. Of course, there have Lord Myners: My Lords, I shall definitely look been many changes to the judicial system since then— more closely at the situation. many more than I had ever envisaged. This difficulty has shown up particularly in relation to the Supreme Court. The age limit of 70 came in when the Pensions Supreme Court: Retirement Age Act became law and, therefore, it applies only to judges who were appointed after that time. In this Question situation, the quicker one arrives at the Supreme Court, the more likely one is to be cut down by this provision. 3.08 pm That is a serious loss of talent. It is difficult to generalise, Asked By Lord Pannick but those who reach the Supreme Court the quickest will, on the whole, be among the best of the talent To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they available. I hope that this review will happen quickly will consider raising the retirement age for Supreme and will have the outcome for which the noble Lord, Court justices to 75. Lord Pannick, has asked.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Lord Bach: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, the Government and learned Lord. We have to balance the arguments have no immediate plans to raise the retirement age of for and against. I acknowledge him as the author not Supreme Court justices but are keeping this issue of our difficulties but of what we consider to be the under review. sensible rule that judges should retire at 70. 655 Supreme Court: Retirement Age[25 MARCH 2009] Israel: Arms Embargo 656

Lord Borrie: My Lords— The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My Lords, imposing Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords— sanctions would advance neither Britain’s influence nor the prospects for peace in the Middle East and in The Minister of State, Department of Energy and our view is not the best way to engage or to influence Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food Israel. We have been very clear that, in accordance and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My with EU arms export criteria, no arms exports are Lords, there is time both for my noble friend and for granted where there is a clear risk that those arms the noble Lord, Lord Lester. could be used for internal repression or external aggression, and that is surveyed very closely. We continue to Lord Borrie: My Lords, the retirement age for senior monitor this very carefully. judges was introduced for the first time in 1959, when it was established at 75. Later, in the early 1990s, under Lord Hylton: My Lords, this is not a negligible I believe the Lord Chancellorship of the noble and matter. Can the Minister confirm that in the first learned Lord, Lord Mackay, it was reduced to 70. Is it nine months of 2008, military equipment worth more not rather odd that the retirement age is being reduced than £27 million was exported to Israel? Will the at a time when the physical and mental abilities of Government tell the incoming Government of Israel people in their 70s have never been higher? that disproportionate killing and destruction as in south Lebanon and Gaza is unacceptable? Will they Lord Bach: My Lords, I shall have to answer my redirect our arms export effort to supporting peace- noble friend with some care if I want to get out of this building and to trying to ensure as far as possible that Chamber alive. Of course, it is right to acknowledge there is parity between those negotiating for peace? those in their 70s, but it is also right to acknowledge Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, on the noble Lord’s that we want to allow those who are coming through second point, we will continue to say to this Government the system to get to the top jobs at a younger age. and the incoming Government that disproportionate deaths of civilians are never acceptable. As to his first Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I declare an point, of the £27 million of sales to which he referred, interest—no one else has done so—in that I am 72. Of £4 million were dual-use goods that were not being course, this is a totally unbiased House of elders used for military purposes. Of the remaining £23 million, whose average age is about the age that we are talking a single approval in January last year of a large about. In considering the 1992 scheme of the noble contract for naval communications equipment accounted and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, will the Minister and for over 75 per cent of the remainder. I assure the his colleagues bear in mind the fact that the supreme noble Lord and the House that in normal years we are courts of Australia, South Africa and New Zealand in a very small supplier of arms to Israel. the Commonwealth, the supreme court of Ireland outside the Commonwealth and the European Court Lord Turnberg: My Lords, does my noble friend of Human Rights all have retirement ages of 70, the agree that if Israel was rendered unable to defend only exception being Canada, as a result of the imperial itself, it would rapidly be destroyed by those neighbours Constitution Act 1867? Will he also bear in mind the who vowed to remove it from the face of the earth? In fact that the scheme established by the noble and the light of yesterday’s Statement on anti-terrorism, is learned Lord, Lord Mackay, very sensibly provides for it in the UK’s best interests to impair the ability of a a supplementary panel so that one can go beyond 70 pro-western ally that is right at the forefront in the and sit until 75? Will he consider whether that is fight against terrorism? proportionate and fair if one wants to enliven and enrich the Bench and have diversity, rather than simply Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, in this House and being ruled by rather old people? elsewhere, we have always confirmed Israel’s right to self-defence. Whatever one’s view of the conflict in the Lord Bach: My Lords, interestingly, the average age region, it is clear that Israel needs a significant capacity of this House is below 70, but only just, I think. We for that self-defence. will consider the points that the noble Lord makes. As I said, there are points to be made on all sides of this Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, a new argument. It is a serious matter, and we want to Government are coming in in Israel who appear to be consider it seriously. stone deaf to all forms of outside criticism, with a Prime Minister who has made it clear that he rejects the two-state solution and is not willing to withdraw Israel: Arms Embargo from the Golan Heights as part of a negotiated principle. What are Her Majesty’s Government going Question to do to provide the outside pressure needed on this new right-wing Government in Israel to make them 3.16 pm think rather more constructively about common Asked By Lord Hylton security and peace for the Palestinians? To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I very much hope will support proposals for a complete embargo on that the new Government in Israel will be given pause exports of arms and military equipment to Israel for thought by the fact that not just this Government by the United Kingdom and the European Union. but the Administration in Washington are, like nearly 657 Israel: Arms Embargo[LORDS] Privacy: Government Databases 658

[LORD MALLOCH-BROWN] arms sales to Israel that entirely meet the export all of Israel’s allies, firmly committed to a two-state licensing requirements and therefore, we are confident, solution and will use every opportunity to make that will not be used for domestic repression are indeed point unequivocally clear to the new Prime Minister. legitimate, and we do not intend to cease them. Lord Dykes: My Lords— Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, the Minister in the other place said that there is no evidence that any The Minister of State, Department of Energy and British defence exports were used in the recent Israeli Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food operations in Gaza. When will the Foreign Office’s and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My assessment of that matter be completed? Lords, we are now in the 24th minute.

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the noble Lord is Privacy: Government Databases correct to ask. There have been a number of reports on which we are drawing heavily as sources. There was Question the Amnesty report on 23 February. Our defence attaché in Tel Aviv has carried out an assessment. 3.24 pm Once we have arrived at a clear picture of what materiel Asked By Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer and equipment was used by the IDF, we will assess To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action again whether any UK-exported parts or equipment they intend to take following the conclusion in were likely to have been involved. If so, we will adjust Database State by the Joseph Rowntree Reform our export licensing policies accordingly. Trust that several proposed government databases will not comply with privacy laws. Lord Wright of Richmond: My Lords, is the Minister aware—I am sure he is—that the previous Conservative The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Government imposed an arms embargo on Israel of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, databases are necessary following the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982? to protect the public and to deliver public services. The Two years later, they raised that embargo, in the words Government very carefully assess the potential privacy of the then Foreign Secretary, impact of any new database system or policy. It is not “to reward Israel for pressing forward with the search for peace”. clear from the report what evidence the authors have Given the appalling devastation of Gaza by the Israeli used to reach their conclusions or the methodology defence forces and disturbing reports of instructions that they have employed in reaching them. Frankly, given to them that contravene international humanitarian there seems to be little real analysis. However, we are law, is there not a strong case for Her Majesty’s never complacent about such issues and, if we find Government and the European Union—and the United that changes need to be made, we will make them. States—to reimpose an arms embargo on Israel? Does Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, in the Minister agree that there is little reason to reject thanking the Minister for his reply, I must ask whether the case for an embargo on the grounds given 1964: the evidence points to the fact that the Government “to reward Israel for pressing forward with the search for peace”? are alone in believing that they are right to propose and enact the databases. Does he not realise that Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, as an underlying doctors, teachers, youth workers and the public in policy objective, the UK believes that engaging with general have been very worried about these databases? Israel, drawing it into the international community If the Government will not review the legality of their and making it meet its obligations to its Palestinian databases, will they at least follow the recommendation neighbours is the right way forward. Let me add that in the Rowntree report that those databases should be we do not consider European arms sales to Israel to be subjected to an independent review of both their the big stick implied. Ninety-five per cent of Israel’s privacy impact and their overall benefits to society? defence imports come from the United States. If you add in the gifted element, it comes to 99 per cent. The Lord Bach: My Lords, of course we will read the other 1 per cent indeed comes from the European report carefully and respond to it as soon as we can. Union, and the three big providers are Germany, However, information is fundamental to the delivery France and Romania. I say that to give us a sense of of modern public services and public protection because proportion here. UK arms sales are not a big factor. it helps citizens to receive the services to which they are entitled, front-line staff to have the information that they need to do their jobs effectively and public Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, would it not services to be accurate and efficient. In saying that, I be just a little absurd to deny arms sales to Israel—to also recognise that the increasing use of data needs to have an embargo on Israel—a democratic ally which be matched by increasing safeguards to protect the supplies us, for example, with drones used to protect information and privacy of the individual. our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan while, at the same time, Iran supplies Hamas with sophisticated rocketry Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, while we that rains upon Israel? are all properly concerned with the personal data held by government and commercial organisations that Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I think that the snoop around our shopping habits, what view does the international arms trade is filled with absurdities and Minister take of the objectivity and academic rigour contradictions. Let me reaffirm that we believe that of the Rowntree report? 659 Privacy: Government Databases[25 MARCH 2009] Financial Assistance Scheme 660

Lord Bach: My Lords, as a polemic and a campaign Lord Bach: My Lords, of course I agree with my document it is quite useful, but as a piece of objective noble friend. It is absolute common sense that the academic work it is rather less convincing. I commend DNA database has ensured not only that people who David Aaronovitch’s article in the Times yesterday, in are not guilty of offences are declared not guilty but which he made the point that, although the body that also that a large number of people who would not was asked to prepare the report started with an anti- otherwise have been brought to court are found guilty database bias, of extremely serious offences. “their report was treated as though it had emerged from a body of dispassionate academics engaged in open inquiry”. Mr Aaronovitch ends by saying: Coroners and Justice Bill “Perhaps in future they should try discussing these things with First Reading people who don’t agree with them”. 3.31 pm Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, it was reported in the Telegraph on 14 March that the Government are The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first planning yet another database on which will be logged time and ordered to be printed. the details of all trips abroad made by anyone from this country. Is it true that before travelling one will have to apply for permission, giving a complete and Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2009 detailed itinerary, an e-mail address and credit card details? Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating Order Lord Bach: My Lords, I am sorry but I do not know 2009 the answer to the noble Lady’s question, but I shall write to her and place a copy in the Library. Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating (Northern Lord Kingsland: My Lords, the Rowntree trust report Ireland) Order 2009 estimates that £16 billion a year is spent on IT projects Motions to Approve of this sort. In view of the conclusions of the authors of the report, does not the Minister consider that it is Moved By Lord Davies of Oldham time for a severe public expenditure cut in this area? That the draft orders and regulations laid before the House on 9 February be approved. Lord Bach: My Lords, I can hardly stand at the Relevant document: 7th report from the Joint Dispatch Box and say that this Government, or perhaps Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in even the one before, have not had problems with IT; I Grand Committee on 23 March. do not have the cheek to do that. However, IT can play an important role in making sure that the databases Motions agreed. are proper, secure and used for the purposes intended. Governments of all colours will continue to spend money on IT. Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2009 Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, in the Government’s view, at what age is a child able to give Motion to Approve consent to data sharing? What view have they taken Moved By Lord Tunnicliffe on parents’ involvement in that decision? How extensively have they consulted parents on the age at which they That the draft order laid before the House on have determined that children are capable of giving 9 February be approved. free consent? Relevant documents: 7th report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 7th report from Lord Bach: My Lords, I apologise for taking time to the Merits Committee, considered in Grand Committee answer the noble Baroness. She may be referring to a on 23 March. particular database that has been the subject of some discussion in the last few days. If I am right and she is Motion agreed. referring to the ContactPoint database, I should say that that database is supported by childcare experts, by major children’s organisations, including Barnardo’s Occupational Pension Schemes (Levy and Action for Children, and by those working on the Ceiling) Order 2009 front line as the right tool to help professionals to keep children safe. We think that that database has been unfairly attacked. Pension Protection Fund (Pension Compensation Cap) Order 2009 Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the value of databases was proved a couple of weeks ago when a man was released Financial Assistance Scheme and after 27 years from prison following a serious miscarriage Incapacity Benefit (Miscellaneous of justice? Amendments) Regulations 2009 661 Occupational Pension Schemes 2009[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 662

Occupational Pension Schemes (d) preventing and detecting human trafficking; and (Contracting-out) (Amendment) (e) such other functions as the Secretary of State may by order determine. Regulations 2009 (3) Before making an order under subsection (2)(e), the Secretary Motions to Approve of State shall— (a) publish proposals; Moved By Lord McKenzie of Luton (b) consult members of the public and stakeholders; and That the draft orders and regulations laid before (c) lay a draft before each House of Parliament. the House on 10, 11 and 23 February be approved. (4) Bodies to be consulted under subsection (3)(b) shall include— Relevant document: 7th report from the Joint (a) the Metropolitan Police Commissioner; Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in (b) representatives of the Association of Chief Police Grand Committee on 23 March. Officers; (c) the Director General of the Immigration and Motions agreed. Nationality Directorate; (d) representatives of the Serious Organised Crime Agency; (e) representatives of the Association of Police Authorities; European Parliamentary Elections and (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) (f) such other people as the Secretary of State shall Regulations 2009 determine.” Motion to Approve Baroness Hanham: My Lords, we had an interesting Moved By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon debate on this amendment in Committee but I am still That the draft regulations laid before the House at a loss to understand—despite the Minister’s long on 25 February be approved. reply, for which I thank him—why the Government are going to such lengths to create only half of what is Relevant document: 7th Report from the Joint necessary to establish the security of our borders. The Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in reason for returning to this issue is not to be stubborn Grand Committee on 23 March. but because I am genuinely puzzled as to why the Government have proceeded with the provisions in all Motion agreed. 37 clauses in Part 1 to bring together personnel from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs with those already European Parliamentary Elections employed on immigration, to increase the role of both in providing support to the UK Border Agency, which (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2009 deals with customs and immigration but has no Motion to Approve incorporated police element. Moved By Lord Bach I understand the need for this legislation, which has clearly been brought about with some speed because That the draft regulations laid before the House the UK Border Agency, which includes personnel on 10 March be approved. from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, is already Relevant document: 8th Report from the Joint operating in shadow form. The implementation process Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in of Part 1 must proceed if the moves, which have Grand Committee on 23 March. already been made, are to have any legal force. The cart of opportunism seems to have been put before the Motion agreed. horse of coherence. My party gives no ground to anyone in its determination to see that our borders are policed and Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill administered in such a way as to protect our island [HL] from terrorism, serious crime, trafficking, drugs and all the other aspects of crime, including unauthorised Report (1st Day) immigration, which the Minister laid out in his response to the debate in Committee. In this regard, we believe 3.33 pm that the powers should be enlarged to extend the remit of the border force to investigate those who may be Amendment 1 encouraging illegal immigration and to ensure that those who come here and have no right to remain are Moved by Baroness Hanham removed—something that is singularly lacking under 1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— present arrangements and which is surely germane to “Establishment of UK Border Police Force the control of who is in this country. (1) There shall be a body corporate to be known as the UK There is no disagreement between my party and the Border Police Force. Government about the need for robust and foolproof (2) The UK Border Police Force shall have the functions of— measures. There is, however, a mismatch between us (a) detecting and removing illegal overstayers; on who should be involved in carrying them out. I was (b) protecting UK borders; grateful in Committee for the almost support of the (c) investigating employers of illegal immigrants; Liberal Democrats, who tacitly agree that a unified 663 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 664 border force should be the ultimate goal. Although their ideas may not run along identical tracks to ours, Amendment 2 (to Amendment 1) they seem to be somewhat closer to our view than the Government’s. I ask the Government again why this is Moved by Lord Avebury so. It is abundantly clear from the Minister’s long 2: Before Clause 1, line 4, leave out subsections (2) to (4) and reply in Committee that huge efforts are having to be insert— made to ensure that the police are working not as an “(2) The UK border police force shall have the functions of— integral part of the border agency but at a tangent to (a) protecting UK borders; it. The Minister referred to a senior chief constable (b) strengthening frontier protection against threats to the being a member of the UK Border Agency’s board. security, social and economic integrity and environment He also told us that 280 police officers had been of the United Kingdom; seconded to local immigration teams, (c) preventing and detecting human trafficking; and “up and down our country”.—[Official Report, 25/2/09; col. 213.] (d) maintaining and improving a safe, ordered and secure However, this is a tiny part of what needs to be done in environment in ports.” a united and cohesive way. The noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, conducted a detailed inquiry for David Cameron into Lord Avebury: My Lords, I agree with the noble the safety and security of our borders. It is a published Baroness’s concluding remark that there is a need for document of which I am sure the Home Office, if not more consultation. I hope, as a result of the discussions the Minister, has had sight. Although a little time has we had in Committee and the ones we are going to passed since it was produced, the noble Lord’s observations have this afternoon, that that will be the next step in remain relevant today. He said that, thinking about a unified border force. As the noble Baroness has already said, this was the first amendment “failure to take this opportunity to bring all the services involved that we discussed in Committee and it would be in securing the border together in a single agency carries several challenges”. remarkable if anybody had anything radically new to say about it—we spent, I think, an hour and three-quarters I will not go into all the challenges that the noble debating it and the Minister dealt thoroughly with Lord mentioned, but it is worth citing a few: the lack Clause 1 and gave a general review of how Part 1 will of a comprehensive overarching strategy; inefficiency operate. We all agreed that the protection of our in the sharing of information and the development of borders is of vital national interest; the noble Baroness intelligence; a focus on narrow issues that have an reiterated this proposition in her speech. impact on the work of individual agencies rather than a focus on the overall UK border security effort; and The two main themes of the Minister’s response the inefficient use of resources, both human and financial. were, first, that the police were already working very He concluded in this part of his report: closely with the border force at every level and, secondly, that the amendments—both the ones tabled by the “The creation of a single border agency responsible for all Conservatives and ours—left many issues that needed immediate tasks required to secure the borders should provide a positive public perception of the services being provided and to be resolved. For example, who will be the head of improve confidence in the efforts being made to protect national the unified force? Should that person be a chief constable? wellbeing, and in the Government’s ability to exercise proper Who will be responsible for the discipline of the police control. Equally important, a more coherent, comprehensive and to be added to the force? Will the IPCC or some other robust regime should also have a similar effect in terms of body have jurisdiction over complaints against those deterring criminal activity”. officers? Will the police in the unifying force cover I am sure that no one in this House would disagree protection of the infrastructure of the counterterrorism with him. force and general crime and disorder there? We take a Although we are not entirely reliant on his conclusions, different view from the Conservatives, as I tried to my party strongly believes that, in the piecemeal reform explain in Committee. While we share the long term that is before us again today, the Government have objective that there should be a unifying force, we look missed the opportunity to bring about a totally coherent at Part 1 as being an important step towards that system to protect our borders. ultimate goal. We were encouraged that nowhere in his lengthy remarks did the Minister query that proposition Finally, my other amendments would require in principle. consultation with other bodies before additional functions Our two main objections to the noble Baroness’s were included among those listed. They recognise that amendment were that some of the functions that the this is a developing field. Those who want to breach Tories wanted to give their UK border police force our border controls are constantly devising new ways went beyond the protection of our borders and the of doing so. This will never be a static situation. issues involving employers of illegal immigrants and Whether or not we continue this debate in the the internal policing of human trafficking, extending House today, it will continue largely because of this into matters that were the result of the failure to missed opportunity in the Bill. We have today rushed protect our borders adequately but were not about through provisions against the background of a shadow present day protection of those borders. As I also organisation that has already been set up. The detailed mentioned in that debate, there is the vital question of consultation on this should continue. The Government how the unified border force will operate in Scotland, are making a mistake in not ensuring that the border where the police come under the jurisdiction of the police are the force of our borders but at some stage it Scottish Parliament. From the inquiries that I have will come about. I beg to move. made via Scottish Lib Dem colleagues, the matter has 665 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 666

[LORD AVEBURY] It would ensure that effective counterterrorism measures not been discussed by the Scottish Parliament and, if could be taken. It would confidently allow us to combat for no other reason than that, it would be premature other serious and organised crime, and prevent the to make decisions here that took their agreement for importation of illegal drugs, illegal weapons and people granted. trafficking. It would try to do quite a lot to prevent smuggling and protect the UK tax base. It would 3.45 pm protect us against illegal immigration in all its forms In our previous debate, the Minister said that the and certainly would address environmental control Government intend to pursue a phased approach to and protection issues. the enhancement of our border security. The approach Significantly, I said at that time that the Association will concentrate on counterterrorism, including joint of Chief Police Officers supports the concept of a operations between the police and the border force, single agency, including the police within such a border and intelligence sharing between them. He referred to agency. The Minister challenged that view at cols. measures in the Policing and Crime Bill, which deal in 214-15 of the Official Report on 25 February 2009. I particular with security at airports. I have read Clause 76 repeat today that it is the stated view of ACPO that it of, and Schedule 6 to, that Bill and did not see anything supports a single agency, including the police within that reads across into the matters with which we are that body. I checked immediately after the Committee dealing under this Bill. I do not question the Minister’s stage and found that I was right. I checked as recently assurance that there will be close co-ordination between as this morning in a lengthy telephone conversation the police and the border force, but it would be interesting with the president of ACPO, and nothing has changed to hear more about what he called the “even more between 25 February and today. practical improvements”that emerged from the conference being held on the same day as our debate, 25 February. I will take your Lordships quickly through the As we see it, the Government are taking the pragmatic stages to remove any doubt. In the summer of 2007, view that the Immigration Service and HMRC need ACPO asked one of its number, Assistant Chief Constable time to digest the far-reaching changes that are being John Donlon, the national co-ordinator for ports policing, imposed in Part 1 and to explore with the police any to produce a report, and he did so in the summer of non-statutory arrangements that can be made for the 2007. The report was entitled Border Policing—Options closer collaboration that is necessary and desirable for Change. The options that were investigated ranged between them. However, at the same time, they are not from the formation of a fully integrated, single border ruling out the creation of a unified border force to agency right through to no change at all. The stated bring in the police at a later date. If it can be shown objective was for, that that is the most effective way to protect our “a single border agency bringing together all agencies operating borders, that will be the way to go. We accept that at the border, including the police, into one truly integrated challenge and will seek to launch our own study to see organisation”. how far we can get ACPO and the Association of In November 2007, the Cabinet Office carried out its Police Authorities to agree on what the next step own border review and published the results. It should be. In the mean time, we do not intend to press recommended the UK Border Agency, which ruled our amendment to a Division. out the inclusion of the police. ACPO was anxious to work with the grain of government, against its now Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I support stated policy, and was anxious to make the best of the my noble friend’s Amendment 2, as an amendment to concept of the UK Border Agency, as included in the Amendment 1, because it is preferable to Amendment 1 Bill. In other words, it was going to make the best of as proposed by the Conservatives. The whole attitude an indifferent job. I hasten to add that “the best of an is different: it is positive and constructive. Our first indifferent job” are my words, and not ACPO’s. proposal in the amendment is for the UK border ACPO then asked John Donlon to produce a second police force to protect UK borders, which is important. report. He produced that report, entitled Border The Conservative amendment first proposes, Policing—The Next Step, in July 2008. I draw your “detecting and removing illegal overstayers”. Lordships’ attention to the strapline to that report: That is a sort of Alf Garnett approach, suggesting a “A paper to inform discussion on modernising police structures desire to grab headlines, such as “Tories want to see in the light of Cabinet Office Border Review recommendations”. overstayers expelled”and that sort of thing. Our approach is more rational, progressive and constructive. If there It recommended the establishment of a single national is a vote—I do not think that there will be—I would police force to police ports and airports in this country, say that the Liberal Democrat amendment is far superior working alongside and with the newly envisaged UKBA. to that of the Conservatives. In other words, there would be a national police force covering the ports and there would be the new UK Lord Dear: My Lords, in rising to speak to these Border Agency. ACPO deserves praise for that. It was amendments, I do not intend, with your Lordships’ co-operating with the Government, as one would hope, agreement, to get involved in a party-political spat. I and it was, significantly, willing to give up a good deal want to comment on the place of the police within a of its own operational responsibility, manpower, budgetary border agency. I spoke on this in Committee on base, and so on, to create that force. 25 February, when I supported a single all-embracing It was not a change of preference. Its stated preference border agency, as outlined in the Stevens report, to is still to espouse the single agency that has been which reference has already been made today. As I mentioned already by the two noble Lords who have said at the time, that would ensure a number of things. spoken before me. We should declare the aim of having 667 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 668 a single border agency that includes the police. That Moreover, I can assure the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, would, of course take time, step by step, stage by stage. that we are not in the least bit wishy-washy; far from It cannot happen overnight. To fail to declare a single, it. Indeed, we are being forceful in establishing the all-inclusive border agency as an aim is to go off at border arrangements, and the basis on which we are half cock and is, in many ways, waste of time and going forward is an indication of that. effort. It is a scrambled opportunity; it misses a golden We discussed the noble Baroness’s proposals at opportunity. I certainly support what both previous length in Committee, when I had to go through a speakers have said on this subject. whole raft of clause stand part Motions which I have to admit was rather over-long. I set out then the Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, for the reasons reasons I felt that we are going in the right direction given by the noble Lord, Lord Dear, I, too, strongly and that the proposals in the amendments were not support the aim of the United Kingdom border police the right approach. I have to reiterate those reasons. force being part of the UK Border Agency. I declare We are not at all clear about exactly what is meant an interest as vice-chairman of the All-Party Group when talking about a single police border force, and on Trafficking of Women and Children. One reason is the sheer complexity of it would be great. The noble that the proposals of both the Conservatives and the Baroness referred to the complicated arrangements set Liberal Democrats would include the UK border police out in the Bill to form the border force we have force having the function of preventing and detecting proposed. When you are in government and trying to human trafficking, which is to be seen nowhere else—as make something work both administratively and far as I know—in any policy requirement. I am in no operationally, it is a highly complex exercise. Just to way suggesting that the police around the country do say in loose terms, “Let’s have a border police force not do their best, but they are doing it in different and shove them in with it”, begs certain questions. areas. It is extremely important to have a border police What are the functions, who should be put into the force with the specific duty and responsibility of preventing force, who should the leadership of the organisation and detecting human trafficking. For that reason in be—a police officer or a civil servant?—to whom particular, and for the reasons given by the noble would it be accountable, issues of devolution and huge Lord, Lord Dear, I support both amendments. Since it issues of funding—would it require top-slicing and looks as though only one will be put to a Division, I how would it be done? These are extremely complicated will support it. and difficult questions. Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I should like This was looked at in the Cabinet Office report, to add my voice to the proposal from both of the Security in a Global Hub, to try and deliver practical Front Benches opposite for exactly the same reasons improvements to border security as a result of the as those expressed by my noble and learned friend attacks in 2007. Having looked at the complexities and Lady Butler-Sloss. If the Government could assure us difficulties, the Cabinet Office decided that having a that they will right this particular aspect, one which single border police force was not the way ahead at the particularly horrifies us—we know how many trafficked time. It did reach that decision because it would have people, particularly women and children, are in the been happy with something less good, but because country but not accounted for—by stating it explicitly there are real and practical ways of going about these in the Bill, I might then have second thoughts. However, things. Certainly, what we are doing is practical and I have listened carefully to my noble friend Lord Dear will work. We have a responsibility and a duty to back and have considerable sympathy with his view. I look up our policy proposals with well-thought-through forward with hope and expectancy to the Minister’s provisions, which these are. I know that the noble response. Baroness seemed to think that they were a bit rushed, but they are not. For a Government, we are moving Viscount Slim: My Lords, I suppose I should declare quickly, but we are not rushing. that I have some slight experience of crossing borders unnoticed in one way or the other, which is the nicest 4pm way I can put it. I hope that the Minister will listen to what has been said by the noble and learned Baroness Indeed, we already have the border force in place and the noble Lord, Lord Dear. Our country needs the and working to some rather ad hoc rules, with work- tightest regulation and rules, as well as a concerted arounds—that is not the way to do it—to achieve what effort being made by one force. I detect from the we are saying we want to do. We need to get it on a Government’s present view that they are being a little proper basis; that is why the provisions in Part 1 of the wishy-washy about a real border protection force. I Bill provide the necessary legal framework to build on therefore support the speakers who have gone before the earlier successes of our border force and ensure me and I hope that the Minister will be tough and that the officers and staff have the powers that they positive about this. need to do their job effectively in the modern world. The measures in Part 1 complete the job of laying the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home foundations, where we have already started that work. Office (Lord West of Spithead): My Lords, I am We have already taken important steps to enhance grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, and the border security, but we need the provisions in Part 1 to noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for their explanation of complete that process. There is, therefore, a time issue, why these amendments have been tabled. I am in no which is why it is important to move this quickly. I doubt whatever that everyone in this Chamber believes explained why we have not left this to later legislation; in strong borders for all the reasons we have given we want to get this in place and working for the about their importance to the security of this nation. security of the nation, so that we can have it fully in 669 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 670

[LORD WEST OF SPITHEAD] Association of Chief Police Officers is an important place and completely working by September. Without part of that. We will continue with our e-Borders work these provisions, we will not be able to transfer to the and biometric visa programme; we will improve our border force officers from HMRC who are currently capacity to detect, deter and intercept radiological engaged in customs controls. material, as I mentioned yesterday. That will all be I shall say a little more about policing. I have done by the new border force. already mentioned that we had a long debate about The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked what happened this before today, and on the proposal to create a new at the conference referred to in Committee on 25 February. border police force we have really heard nothing to I was not there myself, but I understand that it was a persuade us that our approach is wrong. It is a highly very useful meeting between senior police, the border complex thing to do. The judgment within the Cabinet force and Home Office officials. They discussed quite meeting was that this is not the right way to go. The a lot of the detail on some of the proposals to improve noble Lord, Lord Dear, talked about the ACPO position; standards and national co-ordination. There is no all I would say there is that it seems to fluctuate a bit. doubt that we are improving intelligence sharing. They As the noble Lord made clear, we have talked to are going to meet again in April to go the next step ACPO at length. I have talked to a number of people further. In a sense, these things are still living; I would within ACPO—a number of chief constables—and never say that never in future would we ever say we are there are various views about this. The APA has a not going to have a border police force. Perhaps conditions different view. There are a number of different views will change and we will see things differently but, at about this because it is so complex and hard to know the moment, it is not the appropriate thing to do. It is exactly how to go ahead. much more important that we achieve what we are achieving here, which is something that is achievable Our bottom-line judgement remains that we have and practical and will absolutely enhance the security not seen a compelling case as to the operational benefits of our borders and, therefore, our nation. to be derived for setting up a new national border police force, when we set them against the potentially The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked about the significant costs, which are probably real, and a number Policing and Crime Bill. There are provisions to assist of drawbacks involved. I do not believe that we have with collaboration between police forces in that Bill, heard noble Lords articulating such a compelling case. which is presently in the other place. It also refers to It seems superficially attractive, and is easily said, but airport security. if you have to be there to implement it would not be The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, quite so straightforward or so clear-cut that it will and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, referred to work as well as has been said. trafficking. I cannot put something in this Bill on that In Committee, I set out to your Lordships our issue, but I absolutely understand the full horror of approach to enhancing significantly the already close trafficking and how important it is. Later in the Bill, working relationship between the police and the border when it comes to children, this subject will again be force. The noble Baroness may not have said that it mentioned. What I certainly will do is consider whether was at arm’s length, but she gave the feeling that it was there is some measure that could be reflected within not close, but it is a very close relationship and works the new border force, because this is a very high well. We are trying to make it even better. Indeed, priority for everyone. I shall see what can be done in ACPO is helping us on this and I am grateful for its that sense. work there. We have a very firm platform to build on. I We will not or do not intend to create a new think of the creation, within the past few years, of the national border police force. Our energies and those of police counterterrorism network, and of dedicated the police and the border force are much better put to regional assets closely linked to local Special Branches, delivering increased protection through the steps that which gives quite a lot of flexibility—particularly to we have outlined, rather than stretching out towards a the local chief constables. We will take steps to enhance rather vaguely articulated position, with all sorts of border policing within that network and to improve implications that we do not understand, which may or standards, consistency and co-ordination. So, I believe may not be workable in practice. I ask the noble Lord that it is good and getting better. to withdraw the amendment. Yesterday, the government strategy known as CONTEST came out. It is the first time that we have Lord Avebury: My Lords, we are very grateful to the set out, in a public document, a detailed account of Minister for not ruling out the ultimate creation of a the history of the threat from international terrorism, unified border force on the lines proposed by both the the impact that has had on the UK, our understanding Conservatives and Liberal Democrats in their strategy of its causes and our view of its likely direction. The documents. We have accepted the arguments that the current threat of international terrorism remains “severe”, Minister advanced, both in Committee and this afternoon, meaning that an attack is highly likely. A key part of for not proceeding with the proposal at this stage. the strategy is ensuring the security of our borders. I We listened with great care to what the noble Lord, am delighted, as I have said, that all noble Lords who Lord Dear, said. It was interesting that ACPO revised have spoken absolutely see that, understand it and its position following the publication of the Cabinet support it. Office report in July 2007 and came round to the view The CONTEST strategy sets out steps that we are that it should, for the time being, rule out the creation taking to improve our protection. The Memorandum of a unified force. The Minister rather unfairly said of Understanding between the border agency and the that its position seemed to fluctuate when what it had 671 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 672 done was to try to accommodate itself to official gone into the Bill in response to all the points made in government policy. It would be interesting to know Committee. It would be a pity if it was all lost, because whether ACPO has any response to the objections that I am sure that others would value what has been said. I have been ventilated thoroughly, for an hour and a beg leave to withdraw the amendment. half in Committee and now for 35 minutes on Report, on why this is not the appropriate time to proceed with Amendment 1 withdrawn. a unified border force. We welcome what the Minister said about the progress Clause 1: General customs functions of the Secretary made at the conference on 25 February. Will he kindly of State place any outcome of that conference in the Library so we can all have a look at it? If we can see that the Amendment 3 arrangements that are being made between the police Moved by Lord West of Spithead and the border force are such as to promote this ever-closer co-operation, which everybody wants to 3: Clause 1, page 1, line 9, after “Commissioners” insert “, or see, to deal with the menace of trafficking and drug officers of Revenue and Customs,” importation and to counter the threat of illegal Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, Amendments 3, immigration, we will all have achieved the result that 4, 5, 6, 14, 15 and 63 are related and I will take them we wanted, even if we have not reached the ultimate together. I shall speak to government Amendments 3, goal of a unified force at this stage. For the time being, 4 and 5, which are clarifying amendments. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. We had much debate in Committee about the nature Amendment 2 (to Amendment 1) withdrawn. of general customs functions under the Bill. General customs functions include not only the functions Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank everybody exercisable in relation to a general customs matter by who has taken part in the debate. It has provided an the commissioners, but also any functions currently extra dimension to what is in the Bill, or perhaps a exercisable in relation to those matters by officers of different view of what should be there. I am enormously HMRC. Under the Bill, these functions will all come grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Dear, to the UK Border Agency. whose great expertise on this subject I value highly. Clause 1 defines general customs matters as those His contributions, both today and in Committee, have in relation to which the commissioners of HMRC been extremely effective. have functions other than those that concern revenue I am grateful also for the tacit support of the and other excepted matters set out in Clause 1(2). Liberal Democrats. We are running along the same However, some non-revenue customs functions are tram lines, although they may diverge slightly. I am conferred on customs officers directly, rather than via not so happy with the contribution of the noble Lord, the commissioners. Examples include the ability of Lord Roberts, which underplayed the importance of officers to detain unsafe goods on import under the what we are proposing. As I have made clear, we are Consumer Protection Act 1987, in order to allow for absolutely committed to ensuring that our borders are their inspection by a trading standards officer, and the secure—there is no difference on that between any of ability of officers to detain ships under the Public us in the Chamber. What we are trying to demonstrate Health (Ships) Regulations 1979 on behalf of port is that there is a missing ingredient in the Bill. health authorities. We have had two good debates on this matter. It is Of course, it could be argued that, by conferring clear that the Government are not going to move at functions on an officer of HMRC, a statute also this stage. I am still of the view that there is a missing confers functions on the commissioners, who, by virtue link in the proposals being put forward by the of the provisions in the Commissioners for Revenue Government. The Minister said that there was a great and Customs Act 2005, are responsible for directing deal of complexity in what has been done. It would be and supervising the actions of their officers. On balance, a pity if all of it had to be redone in order to put into though, we think it better to put it beyond doubt that the Bill, in a full and committed way, the police general customs functions include those functions element. exercisable in relation to general customs matters by I thank the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler- the commissioners and by the officers of HMRC, Sloss, the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and the noble particularly as the term “general customs matter” is Viscount, Lord Slim, for contributing. This is a debate also used in Clause 3 to delineate what a designated that will be returned to in time: it will not go away, general customs official may do under the Bill. These because it is of such fundamental importance to how amendments simply make it clear that, irrespective of we ensure that we in this country are secure, and that whether a statute confers functions on the commissioners the movement of people and the trafficking of goods or on their officers, or both, those functions will be across our borders are properly managed and well fully exercisable by the UK border force in future. understood. I do not suggest that they are not; I suggest that we can enhance them. 4.15 pm I have no intention of testing the opinion of the The purpose of government Amendment 14 is to House today. I thank everybody for taking part in the clarify that the functions of the commissioners of HM debate and the Minister for contributing twice at Revenue and Customs, which may be exercised considerable length and for sending us a detailed concurrently by the Director of Border Revenue under response. Can he say where that response will go? We Clause 7(1), do not include those functions that were have had a pile of paper well in excess of what has formerly vested in the commissioners of Inland Revenue. 673 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 674

[LORD WEST OF SPITHEAD] functions that the commissioners and customs officers It is clear from the overall context of the Bill, exercise in relation to ports and airports, the movement particularly given that Clause 7 defines customs revenue of goods, preventing drug smuggling and the smuggling matters as those relating to taxes for which the former of other prohibited and restricted goods, and the department of HM Customs and Excise was responsible, regulation of trade and shipping. that we are conferring only customs-related functions We have not set out each and every relevant function on the UK Border Agency in this Bill. However, we in the Bill because the statutes conferring powers and need to make it clear that it is only Section 5(2)(b) of functions on customs officers are many and varied. It the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005, would be a very long list and not one that could which deals with the functions formerly exercised by sensibly be set out in legislation. I shall give some the commissioners for HM Customs and Excise, that examples. As noble Lords will no doubt be aware, our applies to the Director of Border Revenue. The remainder customs administration is one of the oldest in the of Section 5(2) relates to the former functions of the world and, as such, many customs functions date back Inland Revenue. I hope that noble Lords will agree hundreds of years. The Slave Trade Act 1873 gives that these amendments, although they sound complicated, customs the power to seize a vessel used for the assist in clarifying the functions that may be exercised purpose of the slave trade. The Naval Prize Act 1864 by the Secretary of State and by the Director of provides for customs to take custody of any ship taken Border Revenue. as a prize. The Import, Export and Customs Powers If the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, will indulge (Defence) Act 1939 gives customs a role in preventing me, I shall speak to her Amendments 6, 15 and 63 trading with the enemy. The Docking and Nicking of ahead of her. If I understand correctly, the noble Horses Act 1949—that is clipping their ears, not stealing Baroness and the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, them, I hasten to add—gives customs a role in preventing have tabled a series of amendments that have at their the import of horses whose tails have been docked. heart the quite legitimate aim of attempting to further In more modern times, the Merchant Shipping clarify exactly which functions will be exercised by the Act 1995 gives customs a role in ensuring ship safety, Secretary of State and the Director of Border Revenue requiring production of ships’ documents and detaining respectively. I hope that that is the aim; if I am wrong, ships if necessary. As a naval officer, I mention in I am sure that the noble Baroness will make that clear particular a very important power relating to shipping. to me. Unfortunately, the amendments as drafted will If a ship is flying improper colours, a customs officer not achieve this aim. As I must therefore resist them, I may board the ship and seize and take away the will explain why. colours. I could go on. The Chemical Weapons Act 1996, We can all agree that the drafting of Part 1 is the Rabies Act 1974, the Explosives Act 1875 and the complex. Amendments 6 and 15 both make reference Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975 all give a to the schedule that Amendment 63 proposes, so role to customs in enforcing their provisions. However, Amendment 63 provides the real substance of these I do not believe that there is any need to list them all in amendments. As your Lordships can see, Amendment the Bill, because all that is left for the Secretary of 63 contains two lists: one of customs revenue functions State, after we have excluded all the revenue and other and one of general customs functions. The list of “inland”work of HMRC, is the appropriate non-revenue general customs functions included in Amendment 63 customs work. In future, the exercise of all these attempts to expand on the general functions of the various functions at ports and airports will be for the Secretary of State set out in Clause 1. However, the border force and not HM Revenue and Customs. I beg list—I acknowledge that it was supplied to the House to move. by the Government—is far from comprehensive. It was precisely because of the difficulty of drafting a Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the Minister comprehensive list that we have taken the approach for that explanation. I should like to take a straw poll that we have in the Bill. The list of customs revenue across the House to determine which noble Lords functions, meanwhile, simply repeats what is already have understood what the general customs functions set out in Clause 7(2) of the Bill and is therefore and the general revenue functions will be. As he clearly unnecessary. indicated, they are still as opaque as they were originally. Clause 1 defines the functions to be exercised by the I am extremely grateful to him for trying to help us out Secretary of State by reference to those functions of on the allocation of these functions and their definition, the commissioners that she may not exercise. I can both in the explanation that he gave this afternoon understand why noble Lords have raised concerns and in the long letter that he sent prior to our laying about this, but a careful look at Clause 1 will show the amendments. that these concerns are misplaced. Let me explain the However, as I say, I do not think that anything has Government’s approach. Taking the functions of HMRC taken us much further in obtaining transparency about as a whole, we have first excluded all the former Inland what these duties are. Without referring to several Revenue’s functions from the definition of general other pieces of legislation, it is still difficult to know customs functions. We have then excluded any other what is involved and what the exact functions covered revenue, duty or tax matter. We have then excluded the under the general customs functions are and what is functions of the Paymaster-General given to HMRC covered under those given to the Director of Border and the regulatory role of HMRC in controlling money- Revenue. As we understand it—the Minister has tried transfer businesses. Thus the Secretary of State is left to explain this today—the intention is that, as with the non-revenue customs, shipping and enforcement regards the customs matters, only those functions of functions of HM Revenue and Customs. These are the HMRC that relate to the importation and exportation 675 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 676 of goods will be passed to the UK Border Agency and because they will help in the general understanding of only functions relating to customs and excise duties, why we have arrived at the legislation that we have agricultural levies and VAT as regards the importation arrived at. or exportation of goods will pass to the Director of Border Revenue. 4.30 pm The Minister rather decried the extremely helpful Lord Avebury: My Lords, we recognise that but, as list that he sent, which seemed to me to delineate the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, pointed out, they carefully what those functions will be and what powers are not accessible to the general public. When we look are to be passed across. However, unfortunately, the for advice from experts outside, as we normally do, we Minister dismissed it as not being very helpful. I am have to remember to send them copies of these letters sorry about that because I think that the list— so that they can see them. There may be a lot of other practitioners who do not get to see the letters but who Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I was trying not would enormously value the advice that they give. The to dismiss it but I thought that the noble Baroness’s suggestion on the table is that perhaps the Minister amendment was seeking a fully comprehensive list. could consider how they could be placed on the web so The list that we have is useful but, as I explained, a that they would be accessible to a much wider audience fully comprehensive list would constitute a 78-page than simply this House. document and be a bit confusing. The Minister’s letter referred to Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act, which allows an examining officer to Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the noble question a person at a port or in the border area, to Lord for those comments but I still think that the list search the person or his possessions and to take his that was given to us would be illuminating for anybody fingerprints or a DNA sample. This power may be who is trying to find their way through this legislation, exercised already under the Terrorism Act 2000 by a which we have said all along is opaque and difficult to constable, an immigration officer and a customs officer fathom. who is designated for the purpose of Schedule 7 by the I am not sure that the slave trade is terribly relevant Secretary of State and the commissioners. So all to the functions that have been passed down at this immigration officers may conduct an examination under stage, which are the ones that we are talking about—the Schedule 7, whether or not they are designated under legislation relating to what has been passed from HMRC Clause 3(1), and the Minister could perhaps explain and from the commissioners to the Secretary of State why he singled out this enactment in the letter. and the Director of Border Revenue. I can only say Perhaps it was because of the discussion that we that I hear what the Minister has said. I am sorry that had on 4 March, when the Minister said that a public we cannot get any further with this. That list ought to consultation was being undertaken on how to bring be somewhere on file, because it would be enormously the S and Marper judgment into effect and that he helpful in the future. would put copies of the consultation documents, as well as the interim response to the European Council Lord Avebury: My Lords, we listened carefully to of Ministers, on the Home Office website. I looked on what the Minister said and we understand that what is the Home Office website on Saturday evening and I now proposed is really quite belt and braces; I think could not see the material, still less anything about the that he used the phrase “put it beyond doubt”. The sensible timescales that the Minister said would be UKBA official or Home Office official who is designated attached to the process. I would be grateful if he would under Clause 3(1) becomes a “general customs official”, look at that mater. and under Clause 3(2) he has the same functions in The point of raising the matter at this stage is that, relation to a “general customs matter” as the Secretary as the Minister’s letter underlined, the taking of biometric of State has under Clause 1(1) or as an HMRC official samples under Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act is not has as a servant of the commissioners. exclusive to the Special Branch, as in the example that I want to mention one of the noble Lord’s letters—I I gave in Committee, but can be done by any immigration cannot remember precisely which one—and I say, by or designated customs officer. The fingerprints and way of interpolation, that I entirely agree with what DNA samples taken by all those officials are being the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, said in her concluding stored indefinitely, contrary to the judgment mentioned. remarks. It is really an awful waste for these letters not It is surely very unusual, if not totally unprecedented, to see the light of day and I wish that there could be to launch a public consultation on how to comply with some way in which they could be placed on the web. I the law, rectifying the violation of Article 8 of the made a suggestion when we discussed this shortly European Convention on Human Rights. The samples before we came into the Chamber, if I may reveal our have to be destroyed once it becomes clear that the conversation. On the parliamentary website, you go person is not subsequently charged with any criminal down to the section under “Bills and Legislation” and offence; that is the principle to which we would invite you can see the various stages of a Bill and all the the Minister to agree now. We are not objecting to amendments. If space could be found on that page to Schedule 7 itself, but this may be the only opportunity put up the letters from Ministers— that we get to point out, as the Minister has done so helpfully in his letter, that thousands of officials have Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, all the letters the power to make ordinary passengers give them that have been sent are available in the Library. The biometric samples, which are still being retained for noble Lord and the noble Baroness are absolutely ever, three and a half months after that was declared right that it would be a great shame to lose those, unlawful by the highest court in Europe. 677 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 678

[LORD AVEBURY] explain how complex the list would be if it covered On government Amendment 14, Clause 7 deals everything. The problem is that a list would be illustrative with the customs revenue functions of the commissioners, only and having an illustrative list is not the right thing which are exercisable concurrently by the Director of to do in legislation. It would not be a good way Border Revenue in relation to a customs revenue matter, forward. as defined in subsections (2) and (3). I interrupt myself On fingerprints, DNA and whatever, the Government to say that we had a very encouraging response from are completely committed to a public consultation on the Minister when we suggested that there should be a how they respond to the judgment in S v Marper and schedule of definitions attached to the Bill, as in the will inform the House when it is launched. If I get a draft Bill that was published in July 2008. It would be heads up about when it is coming up, I will let noble useful to know whether the Minister has given further Lords who have taken part in this debate know, but I thought to that since we discussed it offline, as it were. am not aware of the date yet. The functions in question are those conferred on the Schedule 7 was teased out in my letter because of commissioners by, the discussion we had. That is why I particularly put “an enactment passed … before the end of the session”. it in. The Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 The necessity to specify parts of the CRCA 2005 is deals with those functions of the commissioners that because we have excluded application of that Act had formerly been vested in the commissioners of generally, but we need to apply certain provisions of it Inland Revenue. If those functions did not relate to specifically, such as the example given by the noble any customs revenue matter, they would not have been Lord relating to the commissioner’s functions. That is covered by this clause, and I am wondering why it is why we have done that. It looks strange, but that is the necessary to spell out the provisions of the 2005 Act reason behind it. I think the noble Lord said that I that are included in Clause 7(7), when they must be said that we would put something on the website sufficiently defined already. Is the 2005 Act the only about this. May I look in Hansard, see exactly what legislation that deals with HMRC commissioners’ was said and come back when I have taken advice powers over both customs revenue matters and other about what I can do? functions, where it might be necessary to make the I appreciate the motivation behind all these distinctions between the two? amendments. I hope I have explained why I do not feel The Conservative amendments would insert new that they are appropriate. I ask the noble Baroness not definitions of “customs revenue” function and “general to press her amendments and ask the House to accept customs” function into a schedule, but something has the Government’s amendments. gone wrong with the quotation marks in the amendment. The terms defined should be plural, but no doubt this Amendment 3 agreed. is how they were in the document circulated by the Minister—they were copied verbatim from a document Amendments 4 and 5 that perhaps was not drafted very thoroughly. In the Moved by Lord West of Spithead Bill, each of the terms is defined as a function exercisable in relation to the corresponding matter, conferred by 4: Clause 1, page 2, line 19, after “section” insert “—(a)” specified enactments enumerated in the corresponding 5: Clause 1, page 2, line 20, after “applies” insert “; clause. The matters are then defined separately. The (b) to functions of officers of Revenue and Customs are to Conservative amendments condense these matters into functions conferred by an enactment to which section 3 two lists that are much shorter than the two lists in the (designation of general customs officials) applies.” Bill—as in the Minister’s letter but, no doubt, at the Amendments 4 and 5 agreed. expense of some precision, as the Minister has said. For example, the customs revenue function list includes Amendment 6 not moved. all excise duties, while some are purposely excluded in Clause 7(2)(e), such as lottery duty or pool betting Clause 3: Designation of general customs officials duty, presumably because they have nothing to do with our borders. Amendment 7 On reading the explanation in the Minister’s letter, I thought that it might be useful to have a Venn diagram Moved by Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen showing the overlapping functions and responsibilities. 7: Clause 3, page 3, line 17, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) We look forward to seeing the promised partnership and insert— agreement between UKBA and HMRC, but we would “(a) any officer transferred to the UK Border Agency from also welcome a visual presentation that might help to HM Revenue and Customs, convince us that the complicated structure of Part 1 is (b) any UK Border Agency employee recruited for that unavoidable. specific purpose,” Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen: My Lords, in Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, may I take away speaking to Amendment 7, I shall speak also to the issue of the letters and how we may make them Amendments 8, 9 to 12 and 16 to 18. In particular, I available to the public? I will look at it to see what shall speak to the elements relating to the possible would be feasible to have on a website, but I shall need dilution of skills of the workforce. My noble friend advice on what we are able to do. Lady Turner of Camden will cover the elements relating The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, and the noble to the powers of the Secretary of State to designate Lord, Lord Avebury, referred to the list. I tried to officials. 679 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 680

These amendments were requested by the Public Furthermore, the wording in the clauses states, and Commercial Services Union because it has fears “may be permanent or for a specified period”. about the dilution of the skills in the workforce under In other words, you could well have temporary contract the Government’s proposals, which it believes could workers performing immigration functions. That would lead to less effective border controls, and the Secretary not be in the public interest either. Rightly, it would of State’s power to designate officials. The PCS considers, not be in anyone’s interest to have those important “that separate bodies, with separate specialisms”— jobs done by people who are quite inadequately trained, as we have at present— which could very well be the situation if we had “exercising separate powers, but in a complimentary way makes temporary contract workers doing those jobs. for the most professional border controls”. Why are the proposals in the Bill? Why is there an It fears, attempt to widen the definition? I hope that we will “that spreading powers will lead to diluted skills”. not be told that the job will be done more efficiently It believes that: through contracting-out or privatisation. I would not find it at all acceptable if it were intended to do it more “Effective co-ordination between public authorities at the border is recognised as vital in the fight against trafficking. For cheaply. We must not accept such an argument in such co-ordination to be most productive, it has to draw together regard to this very important function. I am sure that specific expertise in a complementary way”. that is not the idea behind the wording, but it could The union states that it, well be believed to be by the union, and that is a bad situation. “strongly believes that government policy on the creation of a unified border force militates against effective border security for I support my noble friend’s amendment and await two main reasons: at present, with three sequential control points with interest the Government’s response. there are three opportunities for detection and intelligence purposes, with passenger and vehicular traffic potentially subject to three checks by immigration, police and customs officers at points of 4.45 pm entry. Currently these checks are separate and sequential, allowing each organisation the chance to display their skills and experience Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, it is by joining to tackle trafficking. Our experience has shown that each intervention up our powers, assets, skills and people in one organisation has yielded intelligence and concrete results in dealing with that we can increase our flexibility, strengthen border human trafficking. The proposed reduction to a single primary line may reduce the barriers at the border to one and accordingly security and improve our capacity to facilitate legitimate reduce the deterrent and interceptive effect of three separate trade and the movement of people. While I appreciate controls”. the sentiments behind the amendments proposed by The union believes that complementary skills of my noble friends Lady Gibson and Lady Turner I three trained and experienced groups of specialists— want to explain why I believe they are not appropriate. immigration officers, customs officers and police—are The amendments would prevent the Secretary of not likely to be matched by one officer attempting to State and the Director of Border Revenue designating fulfil a variety of roles. The PCS’s view is that, immigration officers and other existing officials of the “effective co-ordination of separate organisations presents a much UK Border Agency as customs officials. They would tougher barrier to human and goods trafficking than the reduced also reduce the agency’s operational flexibility by removing presence and deskilling as a result of a single border force”. the ability to make and to vary designations according to business needs. I should point out straightaway that Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I support Clauses 3 and 4 do not permit the Secretary of State to my noble friend’s amendments. As she rightly says, we designate contractors as general customs officials; have been approached by the Public and Commercial contractors are not officials of the Secretary of State Services Union, which is concerned about certain aspects for the purposes of these provisions. I assure my noble of the Bill. As my noble friend said, I want to talk friends that that is not the intention and it will not about the power of the Secretary of State to designate happen. officials as set out in the Bill. The union states: By not allowing other designations, however, this “These clauses widen the definition of who is able to carry out would prevent the full integration of customs and immigration and customs functions. If ‘officials of the Secretary immigration functions within the new border force of State’ can include people from outside the civil service then and it would jeopardise delivery of a unified customs contractors could be used to carry out all the functions described primary checkpoint, as recommended by the Cabinet in the Bill. In previous legislation powers have been specifically Secretary’s report, Security in a Global Hub. My noble designated to immigration officers, customs officers or the police”. friend talked about not having the same number of The wording in the Bill therefore, according to the barriers. We now have a first line of the border force union, which is abroad, where the visa agency used to be. We “provides the government with the means to privatise all functions will monitor all of that, and in future there will be to which the designated powers apply”. e-Borders as well. The second line is the full development I and the union have grave concerns about the clause. of e-Borders, targeting based on PNR and intelligence The union states: and the line of people at the port itself. “PCS believe that if low paid contract workers, without the Combining immigration and customs powers in the benefits of civil service pay and terms and conditions carry out hands of our officials will enable us to improve the this work then they will be more open to criminal inducements. This argument was accepted by previous Ministers when used by breadth and depth of protection at our borders. It will PCS in defence of members’ jobs in freight searching, which were mean greater operational flexibility for the agency to under threat of privatisation by the previous Immigration and deploy its staff better. Over time staff can be redeployed Nationality Act”. quickly to manage effectively any change in the nature 681 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 682

[LORD WEST OF SPITHEAD] Amendment 7 withdrawn. or scale of the threats that we face. That is often very intelligence-based. The agency can cover more locations Amendment 8 not moved. and respond to a greater number of threats. The approach will bring benefits for our staff too. As a Clause 4: Designation: supplementary consequence of our proposals, some roles will broaden as we develop an integrated approach to the front line, Amendments 9 to 12 not moved. providing opportunities to learn new skills, take on new responsibilities and have wider career paths. Clause 6: The Director of Border Revenue We will be careful to ensure that we do not lose the strong capabilities that exist in HM Revenue and Customs Amendment 13 and the former Border and Immigration Agency and UKvisas. Accordingly, in some areas, specialisms will Moved by Baroness Hanham be retained. The UK Border Agency was created 13: Clause 6, page 5, line 6, leave out subsection (2) and because it represents the best model to secure the insert— border. We will aim to retain good practice where it “( ) A designation made under this section must be approved already exists. Rather than dilute the skills, Part 1 will by both Houses of Parliament.” enhance the capabilities of our border force officers. Baroness Hanham: My Lords, in Committee we The new legislation will make sure officers have all discussed what the Director of Border Revenue would the powers, tools, equipment and training that they do and who that person would be. It became apparent need to carry out passport and customs controls at the that, for the moment at least, the chief executive of the borders. That training will provide them with the UK Border Agency is the person on whom the Secretary instruction and skills appropriate and necessary to of State’s hand has fallen to become the Director of allow them to exercise the full range of their functions. Border Revenue, so we have two senior roles in one. As I hope that my noble friends will be reassured to know things stand, none of this needs to be approved by that we have kept trade unions across all affected anybody other than the Secretary of State. departments updated as we have taken our proposals forward. The national body, the Council of Civil I made it clear then as now that I have no objection Service Unions, was consulted by the Cabinet Office to the person who has been appointed as Director of review team during the preparation of its report, Border Revenue—she is a distinguished chief executive Security in a Global Hub. of the UK Border Agency—but I have concerns with the principle of what is happening. If the Secretary of We continue to build on this involvement as a key State is, on each occasion, going to put her hand on part of the implementation process and regular meetings the chief executive of the UK Border Agency and are held with the recognised trade unions. Any proposed make that person the Director of Border Revenue, we changes that might impact on jobs or terms and ought to make that clear. It ought to be assumed to be conditions will be subject to full consultation with part and parcel of the UK Border Agency chief executive’s those unions. We need every man and woman that we role and Parliament needs to know about that. have to ensure the safety of our borders. This is certainly not some hidden way of trying to reduce If that is not going to be the situation and, as time numbers. passes, new people are appointed and the Secretary of State no longer thinks that the chief executive of the In summary, the Bill is intended to increase the UK Border Agency should be the Director of Border flexibility to deploy UKBA officers and officials where Revenue, then those two positions part and you have they are most needed and to build on existing skills two senior people in two different roles. If that is the and manpower. We do not envisage reducing the number situation, one of two things must happen. Either there of personnel at the border in any way. Rather, we has to be a full and transparent appointments process intend to deploy people on the basis of intelligence in under the Nolan principles, whereby people put their the most appropriate way, given their skills to meet the names forward as an applicant for this post, whether threats that we face. The amendments would prevent they are in the department or not, or Parliament has the flexible deployment of the agency’s staff and would to approve in some way the person who is going to be impact on its ability to deliver the broader and deeper appointed. There are several ways of doing this. It can coverage of our borders that the Bill is intended to be done by a Select Committee, by the Treasury Select achieve. While I understand exactly where the amendments Committee, by a report to Parliament or even by come from, I hope that I have been able to reassure my appointment by Members of Parliament. This post noble friends that the unions need have no fear in this has a significant job to do controlling the revenue area and we will not be employing temporary staff as brought into this country or claimed at the ports and they are not covered by this. I hope that my noble it carries a big customs role as well. We need to make it friend will feel able to withdraw the amendment. clear that this post cannot for ever more be designated by the Secretary of State. That is the reason for this Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen: My Lords, I amendment. I beg to move. thank my noble friend for that full reply and for his reassurances about contractors and border controls. I Lord Avebury: My Lords, we do not think that it was heartened to hear that the workforce will be borne would be appropriate for the Director of Border Revenue in mind for new skills and responsibilities and that to be approved by both Houses of Parliament but we there will be consultation with the unions as things understand that, as the noble Baroness said, this is progress. I therefore beg leave to withdraw my amendment. really a vehicle allowing us to discuss what will happen 683 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 684 in the future when Lin Homer has disappeared from the Secretary of State is also accountable to Parliament the scene. We know, because the Government said so both for her choice of director, if she gets it wrong and when we dealt with the appointment in Committee, the director does things wrong, and for the wider that Lin Homer is going to be appointed, doubling as running of the border force. head of the UKBA and ensuring that the two functions It is interesting that, following the publication of are joined from the top down. The Bill does not the Governance of Britain White Paper, the Government actually provide that the chief executive of the UKBA have agreed that some key public appointments—mainly will always be the same person as the Director of of ombudsmen, complaint investigators and those Border Revenue. However, as the Minister told us in with inspection roles—should be subject to pre- Committee that the intention was that they would appointment Select Committee hearings. The always be one and the same person, I merely wonder arrangements for these appointments are set out in why that is not in the Bill. much more detail in the Governance of Britain White At some time in the future when the post becomes Paper. The aim is to provide further reassurance that vacant—the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, has government appointments to roles such as those are hypothesised about this—the Minister said that it made on merit and are properly independent of the would be possible to fill it through an open competition Executive. under Civil Service rules on the basis that the chief The Government agreed this approach and the list executive would also be the Director of Border Revenue. of posts that are suitable for pre-appointment scrutiny His wording indicated that other scenarios might be with the Liaison Committee. Civil Service posts such being contemplated, which may account for the absence as that of the Director of Border Revenue are not of any reference to the accommodation of the post in suitable for this form of pre-appointment scrutiny, as the Bill. Assuming that it is envisaged that, in some they are not intended to be independent of the Executive. remote circumstance and at some future date, two Indeed, they should not be independent of the Executive. different individuals could occupy the posts, how would If the post of chief executive of the UK Border the department’s wider strategic objectives for a unified Agency were to become vacant, we would fill the post operation and management command of the UK’s by open competition under Civil Service open-competition border forces be achieved? We remain uncertain of the rules on the basis that the post holder would also be future, because this is not in the Bill, and we would like the Director of Border Revenue, and the Home Secretary to learn more from the Minister now. would have the final say about whether that person would work for her. The person may, for example, not Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, it is anticipated get on with her. that the Director of Border Revenue and the chief On this basis, I hope the noble Lord and the noble executive of the border force will be the same person. I Baroness agree that the amendment is unnecessary. I am not sure why that cannot be in the Bill. I will take have not read the two pages of close written stuff, that away, because I see no reason why it should not saying why we cannot possibly put it in the Bill. May I be. That is absolutely the intention, because it provides go away and have a look at that to talk with the staff? a single management chain of command—the noble If at all possible, I would like to put it in the Bill but if Lord alluded to this, as did the noble Baroness, Lady there is some real reason why I cannot then maybe I Hanham—within the border force over customs revenue could come back to her on that point. functions, customs non-revenue functions and immigration functions. I am about to be told why we cannot put 5pm this into the Bill—I have been handed some great long Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I am most grateful to sheet—but I do not see why we cannot. I will have the Minister for his reply and his robustness to the another look at this. message from the Box; that is always enormously The Director of Border Revenue, who has a statutory helpful when a Minister is likely to take a different responsibility for customs revenue functions, will act view. independently of Ministers. The noble Lord, Lord This needs transparency. Even the Minister was Avebury, is absolutely right about that. That is how it talking almost as if these were two roles and two should be. However, like Her Majesty’s Revenue and different people. It is clear—and I think the Minister Customs, the Director of Border Revenue will be accepts this point—that, if you are going to refer to subject to general directions from the Treasury. It is the position as “the UK Border Agency chief executive absolutely appropriate that, in selecting this person, (Director of Border Revenue)”, the Secretary of State the Home Secretary should fit within the structure of cannot designate an official in the department to be deciding who will come into this job, but she will do so that person. That does not stand up. It does not make in conjunction with the Treasury, so there will be sense. The Secretary of State is not going to designate Treasury agreement at the same time. the UK Border Agency chief executive because that is The amendment would give Parliament the right of clearly a matter that is open to at least competition or veto over the designation of the director. To require some form of selection; the Director of the Border the Bill to state that the designation process is subject Revenue is subject to that as well. It is not subject to a to parliamentary approval would be a very unusual designation. The pretence that this is going to be a and inappropriate step. Under the Bill as it is currently different person needs to be resolved. drafted, the Secretary of State is required, before By the Third Reading, I hope the Minister may designating a person as director, to obtain the consent have found a way of resolving this unfinished business. of the Treasury, as I said. This reflects the Treasury’s We need to make clear who we are talking about important interest in running the agency. Ultimately, rather than try to pretend that this is a separate person 685 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 686

[BARONESS HANHAM] We were not fully satisfied with the depth of explanation with a separate level of responsibilities. I appreciate given in Committee. Mention was made of 14 weeks’ that the Director of Border Revenue has responsibilities. training. I have reread what was said, but I am still not They are clear and probably different to, but included fully clear on whether that refers to 14 weeks on-the-job in, the position of the chief executive of the UK training. Clearly, it would not be 14 weeks of nothing Border Agency. This is misleading and misleading but training. It is not clear how much of each day will legislation is bad legislation. Therefore, I hope the be spent on training or even what the criteria for Minister will find a way of correcting that by the Bill’s successfully passing the training will be. It was said next stage. For today, I beg leave to withdraw the that training will be delivered by trainers accredited by amendment. HMRC and that they, “will be mentored by the personal training officer network”.—[Official Amendment 13 withdrawn. Report, 25/2/09; col. 249.] I am surprised at that. I am not sure whether that Clause 7 : Customs revenue functions of the Director should be the “personnel” training officer network. I assume that it should be “personnel”, the old-fashioned Amendment 14 word for HR. Alternatively, does it mean personal trainers of the type used by celebrities? The interpretation Moved by Lord West of Spithead can be slightly ambiguous, which may be due to the 14: Clause 7, page 6, line 10, leave out “(2)” and insert “(2)(b)” spelling on the record. Perhaps the Minister will explain that more fully. Amendment 14 agreed. For the reasons explained by the Minister when he Amendment 15 not moved. spoke to the first amendments to the Bill, this is supposed to strengthen the border force and improve it. This afternoon, we have heard some of the fears. In Clause 11 : Designation of customs revenue officials fact, the adequacy of training is exactly what will Amendment 16 not moved. make this entire exercise a success or not, of which I am sure that the Minister is fully seized. That is why it is worth going back to this issue at this stage. I beg to Clause 12 : Designation: supplementary move. Amendments 17 to 18 not moved. Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I very much support this amendment. We had considerable discussion about Amendment 19 this in Committee, but I do not think that we entirely clarified what would happen. As I understand it, these Moved by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer new arrangements are already, in some shadow form, 19: Clause 12, page 8, line 43, at end insert— being applied by the UK Border Agency. How many “( ) “Adequate training”means training that provides a designated staff have already been transferred from HMRC to the customs official with all the instruction and skills appropriate and UK Border Agency and are shadowing either immigration necessary to exercise the customs revenue functions conferred on officers or being taught their roles? Information on him fully and properly.” training in shadow form should be readily available to Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, tell us what is being done, what is being put forward we return to the matter of training; in Committee we and how staff are being informed. Presumably, they talked about what adequate training would be and we are half doing the job. are still concerned that there is no definition of it in If no staff have been transferred or identified, we the Bill. When the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, need to understand how many will be transferred at moved her amendment, she talked of some of the any one time and how many will be subject to training fears of the unions about deskilling. This goes to the immediately. Potentially, there would be a hold-up in heart of what we are trying to do with getting a better starting this process if a training course has to be definition of adequate training in the Bill. The wording undertaken. Fourteen weeks is either a very long time that we have chosen to use for this definition is the or it is not a long time at all. It depends on what has to wording that the Minister himself used to define it in fit into it and how much “personal” or “personnel” Committee when he said: training will have to be given. I do not think that we “For training to be deemed adequate, the definition is that it are clear on how much training is involved. If a person must provide a designated customs official with all the instruction comes from HMRC to be trained as an immigration and skills appropriate and necessary to exercise the customs officer, he or she will have to be trained in all that revenue functions conferred on them fully and properly.”.—[Official immigration officers do and an immigration officer Report, 25/2/09; col. 249.] will need to be trained in all the revenue aspects of That was a very helpful comment but we feel it would the job. be more helpful to define it in the Bill. As the Minister said, the training will be complex The Minister, earlier this afternoon, explained some because people will have to understand the legislation of the customs’ functions: that of taking away the colours and, in particular, certain bits of legislation—even the from ships, that of nicking horses in the proper sense, slave trade, perhaps. All that information has to be the functions to do with fish and, on the revenue side, imparted. I am more worried about the people being the checking of taxes and so on. These are all vastly transferred than I am about those who will come into different. So staff from both functions will do very the new agency. The people being transferred really different work. need a proper training package. 687 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 688

How many people are already within the UK Border functions. Once adequately trained, immigration officers Agency on either a shadow or a temporary basis and will be designated as customs officials, subject to them what sort of training have they had? How many are meeting the other designation criteria. Some immigration due to transfer to the agency from HMRC and when, officers are already trained to carry out questioning if they have not already done so? If some have been for customs purposes at the primary checkpoint and transferred, how many more are to be transferred? search freight for customs purposes. How much training has already taken place and will those trained be ready to start whenever these provisions Finally, let me say a little about new recruits to the come into effect? I suspect that we are more than UK Border Agency. A new UK Border Agency training three-quarters of the way down the line, as we so often programme for operational staff working at the border are with legislation. Everything has happened except is currently under development. For new recruits, the the final imprimatur, which comes from our having training programme will support the development of spent an enormous number of days talking about an the unified border force culture and cover both enormous number of clauses to enable the implementation immigration and customs work, enabling staff to operate of what is already half-implemented. across all border controls. The set of skills and knowledge covered by existing HMRC training will continue to form the basis of the training for those in the agency, Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the noble Baronesses including new recruits who are required to exercise have rightly homed in on the important area of training. customs functions. New recruits will undertake an Clause 12 sets out the supplementary provisions relating accredited foundation course, including training to to the Director of Border Revenue’s powers to designate enable them to carry out customs functions where this customs revenue officials. Before making any such is part of their role. Once adequately trained, new designation, the director must be satisfied that—among recruits who are to carry out customs functions will be other things—the official has completed adequate training. designated as customs officials. For training to be deemed adequate, it must provide a designated customs official with all the instruction Customs training covers a wide range of areas, and skills appropriate and necessary to exercise the including relevant legislation; customs regimes, such customs revenue functions conferred upon them fully as the common agricultural policy; targeting for customs and properly. Amendment 19 does not, in practice, purposes; disclosure-handling of material gathered impose any different requirements from those already during criminal investigation; questioning and note-taking; imposed by the Bill. how to arrest and caution; custody, charging and bail Broadly, training for designated customs officials procedures; rules of evidence, interviewing, witness will mirror that which is given to officers of HM statements and giving evidence; customs allowances; Revenue and Customs who currently exercise customs dealing with EU and non-EU goods; calculation of functions at the border. This current training in HMRC duty and VAT; how to take payments, seize or detain is externally accredited by Edexcel. The training given goods and vehicles, and issue paperwork; prohibitions to those officials will enable them lawfully to discharge and restrictions; recognition of, and how to deal with, all the functions vested in them. The customs training controlled drugs and offensive weapons; searching a UK Border Agency frontline official receives will be persons, baggage and vehicles; personal safety training; needs-based and will depend on the official’s role and and, for officers working in Scotland, specific training the customs functions that he or she is to exercise; and in the working of the Scottish legal system and the whether the official is an officer of HM Revenue and different regimes in place there. Customs who has transferred to the border force, an immigration officer in the border force, or a new The border force also trains its officers to help them recruit to the border force. deal with difficult situations. The training delivered to officers includes modules on stress awareness, personal First, I will say a little more about the training of safety training, and cultural and customer awareness officers of HMRC who have transferred. Some 4,500 to assist them in communicating with all passengers in officers of HM Revenue and Customs will transfer to a professional and sensitive manner, and in resolving the UK Border Agency to continue carrying out customs difficult situations. Following on from their training, functions. On transfer, they will lose their status as policy guidance and education is available for staff HM Revenue and Customs officers but will be designated dealing with specific stressful posts, and an employee as customs officials. They are already adequately trained assistance programme is available to support all UK and have expertise in exercising customs functions. Border Agency members of staff 24 hours a day and Current training for officers of HM Revenue and 365 days a year. In addition, the border force has Customs involves guided learning for two weeks, a arrangements in place to ensure that staff can residential course of six weeks and training at a port communicate effectively with non-English speaking or airport for four to six weeks, depending on the passengers arriving in the UK and with those who the location and the skills required. agency encounters during the course of its business Existing immigration officers of the UK Border within the UK. Agency will be trained to exercise customs functions where required for the role that they are undertaking. A number of front-line officers are qualified in a The training that they receive will depend on the variety of languages and can provide assistance customs functions that they are to carry out. The skills immediately. The UK Border Agency also has access and knowledge covered by existing HMRC training to over 2,000 interpreters via a database who can assist will continue to form the basis of the training for those by telephone or attend in person. This service provides in the agency who are required to exercise customs access to speakers of over 50 languages. 689 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 690

[LORD WEST OF SPITHEAD] hindrance. Situations change and we appreciate that Some 4,500 HMRC officers will transfer formally things may have to be tightened up, but the limitations to the UK Border Agency on the Bill receiving Royal that the Government, in their enthusiasm to record Assent. They are already trained and skilled on the the details of travellers’ movements and make sure customs side, and immigration officers’ training to that our borders are secure, are proposing to put on take over these functions has already begun. The our right to roam around the world need to be clear. It figures I have at the moment show that 2,600 officers may be that the newspaper reports have exaggerated have already completed the training. the situation, but if that is so, the Minister has an On the basis of what I have said, I hope the noble excellent opportunity to clear it up today. I beg to move. Baroness will agree that the amendment is unnecessary and that she will feel able to withdraw it. Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for tabling this Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I amendment to discuss further this important issue, thank the Minister for that detailed reply. It will be which was brought up today at Question Time by the helpful to have on the record what standards are noble Lady, Lady Saltoun of Abernethy. I shall look expected and the details fleshed out far more than we forward to hearing the reply from the Minister. heard in Committee. On that basis, I am happy to International and EU requirements place plenty of withdraw the amendment. onus at the moment on us to supply passenger list Amendment 19 withdrawn. information, and there are adequate international agreements on what information is required, so that 5.15 pm each country can check any threat—obviously, a terrorist one in particular but also from serious criminals, and Amendment 19A so on, who may be travelling from here to there. Moved by Baroness Hanham However, the reports that any more advanced travel plans will have to be lodged are worrying. I will briefly 19A: After Clause 21, insert the following new Clause— give three categories of people for whom that, at least, “Use of personal data of UK citizens will be extremely difficult. There are the young and the Nothing in this Act shall enable any of the officers designated under this Part to use any personal data of UK citizens to restrict retired, who can travel week after week; those in their their right to enter or leave the United Kingdom for legitimate gap years can change their plans at the last minute, purposes.” while retired people have that same freedom—they are not tied by having to return to work in two weeks and Baroness Hanham: My Lords, recent publicity has may, on the spur of the moment, go where the weather drawn attention to the information that will be required is better. Why should they need to furnish anything in by the UK Border Agency of those who want to travel advance? If they are in the south of Spain and fancy from this country. This is a good opportunity to ask taking the ferry to Morocco, why should they not be the Government to explain exactly how much advance able to do that at will? information will have to be provided and how far in There is also last-minute travel, particularly on advance it must be done. business. One might have all sorts of reasons for We have discussed on many occasions the progress having to travel at the last minute or change one’s of the e-borders system that will enable passengers’ plans; partly business or, sometimes, family disasters details to be held and processed while they pass through such as death, et cetera. This even comes down to an airport, and how identification will be improved by someone as specific as a yachtsman, whose travel the use of biometrics such as fingerprints and eye plans depend entirely on the direction of the wind. I scans. However, I do not believe that anyone anticipated hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us that, that information such as telephone numbers and e-mail when we leave this country, the Government do not addresses, credit card details, addresses of destination have plans to start requiring us to furnish anything and travel information would all be required. We are other than our first destination. That is the extent of aware of the advance passenger information that will what the Government should require, and then to get be collected, but is it really desirable or practical, or to know when we are coming back. They get substantial within this country’s values about which we hear much information at the moment, as I said, from passenger spoken, that every journey is to be scrutinised and lists, which carriers are required to furnish; beyond identified by the provision of information to the that is really a step too far. authorities, having been collected by the people about whom we are talking? Lord Puttnam: My Lords, I apologise for not having Will the Minister tell us today exactly what advance spoken in any earlier part of this Bill, but I think that information is going to be required for any journey the noble Lord, Lord West, understands my concerns both now and in the future, for how it is anticipated relating to this exact issue and has helpfully allowed the information will be held, and how it will affect me to talk to his officials about it. However, I want to those who make a last-minute decision to travel somewhere get something from the Dispatch Box and on the or have business requirements that suddenly arise? record on this important issue of “without let or The security of our borders and the work of the UK hindrance”. Would the Minister confirm that no part Border Agency are totally germane to this. Private of the powers of the Border and Immigration Agency citizens in this country are not accustomed to having have been devolved, or are intended to be devolved, to their movements subjected to interrogation by the any commercial organisation or any other non- authorities. For generations, citizens have been free to governmental body? A particular example would be come and go, as our passports say, without let or any employee of BAA. 691 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 692

Lord Hylton: My Lords, this amendment is very to probe e-Borders, rather than the Bill itself. We are important, bearing as it does on our freedom of movement exploiting modern technology such as e-Borders to and travel. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, has already make our border even more secure and to target mentioned several categories of people who may have terrorist suspects, known criminals and would-be illegal to make journeys at very short notice. To that group, I immigrants before they can do harm, so as to protect would add parliamentary visits to the EU in Brussels, the public. To do that, we need to monitor all cross-border or to look at foreign elections at short notice. I hope travel. That does not mean that we are interested in that the Government are taking into full account all where law-abiding members of the public go on their these special needs, which may occur unexpectedly. holidays, but it is a sad fact that terrorists and criminals make use of the latest technology and we would Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, this is my therefore be negligent if we did not harness the same first intervention and probably my last on this Bill but, technology to protect our border. An increased use of when I saw this amendment and recalled the reports technology enables us to target our resources where that I had seen, I thought that perhaps this was an risks have been identified and facilitate travel where opportunity to say something. they have not. If the reports that I have seen are to be believed, this is a frightening situation. According to these reports—and I hope that the Minister will be able to 5.30 pm deny them—all British citizens and everybody else, if We must make clear that e-Borders information is they leave this country, whether by sea, rail or air, will information that people give to carriers. We will not have to give advance notice of where they are going ask people for it—the carriers have a liability to provide and give an itinerary as well. The report that I saw it. The carriers can only provide the data that they went even further than that; it seemed to suggest that, have received from passengers: there is no question of eventually, the provision would apply to internal journeys, passengers having to complete a form or questionnaire too, so that if you went from London to Swansea by when they travel. The data are provided electronically train you would have to give a note of where you were by the carrier—that is what some of the debate on going and what you were going to do there. e-Borders is about. It is not absolutely clear how that That is such a restriction of the freedom of people will be done, but it will probably be via some form of in this country that I simply cannot believe that there data transfer. This is travel document information, are people in the Government or the Civil Service, or known as the “passenger name record”. When details even the police or security services, who would even crop up of high-risk movements and people whom we dream up such a proposal. I hope that the Minister have background data on, we will be able to find out will be able to reassure us and say that we shall be able, more about those people. as previously, to go about our business without interference E-Borders was successfully trialled through a prototype, from government snoopers. Project Semaphore. It did not stop people making short-notice journeys, or several journeys in a row. It Lord Marlesford: My Lords, this amendment, spoken was the subject of extensive consultation with the to so ably by my noble friend and the noble Baroness travel industry. The then Prime Minister announced from the Liberal Front Bench, underwrites a major plans for an e-Borders system in September 2004. Up problem that government and bureaucracies have, which until February 2009, there were 82 million passenger is collecting information that you do not need and, movements, which generated 35,000 alerts. More than quite often, not collecting information that you do 3,000 arrests were made for crimes including murder, need. Some of your Lordships may have seen that rape and assault. The arrests also included a number brilliant German film about the Stasi—I think that it of counterterrorist interventions. Significant numbers was called “People Like Us”, or something like that— of passengers were properly refused leave to enter the which illustrated the way in which a massive effort is UK on the basis of this information. made by a natural bureaucracy to collect a lot of The e-Borders programme has been subject to wholly irrelevant information. appropriate scrutiny both by Parliament and the I am a member of Sub-Committee F of the EU Information Commissioner’s Office, with which we Select Committee. At present, we are looking at money- engage regularly. The code of practice on data-sharing laundering and we have had various government agencies was drawn up in consultation with the Information along to tell us about the information that they are Commissioner’s Office and is available in the Commons collecting. Obviously, I shall not comment on anything Library. We are due to publish a review of that code that we have learnt; all I would say is that there is a real shortly. danger of overkill, which is simply not taken account Clause 14 sets out the purposes for which customs of or gripped by the only two groups of people who information may be used and disclosed, and by whom. really can get to grips with it—Ministers and Parliament. Clause 15 imposes statutory duties of confidentiality in respect of personal customs information. Clause 16 Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, information is sets out the limited and strictly prescribed exceptions obviously an essential tool in support of law enforcement to those duties. The framework ensures that the and national security and is key to our ability to secure operational needs of the border force to protect the the border effectively. That is why Part 1 establishes a public from harm are balanced against the right comprehensive framework covering the use and disclosure protections for personal customs information. I do of customs information, including personal customs not consider that a further restriction, such as that information. I understand that the amendment is meant proposed in this amendment, is necessary or appropriate. 693 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 694

[LORD WEST OF SPITHEAD] keen that we should have this e-Borders capability, I know that the noble Baroness does not intend to and the Irish will have a similar thing for our people impose in this Bill a sweeping ban on the use of going there for exactly the same reasons: being able to information, but instead seeks to identify what information ensure that there is no trafficking or criminal activity, is in the e-Borders programme. Of course there is no and that there are no people trying to get around our restriction on the right of UK citizens to enter or leave immigration laws or terrorist events. Apart from that, the United Kingdom for legitimate purposes. within Great Britain, this would not apply. The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, raised an issue that I know is being dealt with. He has talked at length Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the Minister with the deputy chief executive of the border force. I for his reply.He has probably missed a golden opportunity apologise for the confusion and problems that he has to say exactly what information will be required. He confronted and assure him that there is no intention did not do that but, as I understand it, he is basically that anyone other than properly designated border saying that it is passport details, date of travel and, force officials will be responsible for entry to, or departure probably, original destination. from, this country. I will write to him with a fuller There were some quite scary stories, however, and it reply on that point. seems that no one has made any effort to answer them; It is important to knock into touch the claim that indeed, they have not been well answered today. We we will all have to fill out long forms detailing where have raised the subject, and I am sure that people will we are going and where we will be going next. The come back to it in due course. However, I do not information is just the data that the airline holds when intend to take to take it any further this afternoon. I one applies for a ticket. That airline information has beg leave to withdraw the amendment. already given us an amazing ability to home in on Amendment 19A withdrawn. people who are a danger to this country. People who are travelling normally will not notice anything different. Sometimes scare stories are put out that are not Amendment 20 real. Information is fundamental to the delivery of Moved by Baroness Hanham many modern services. There have been some bad 20: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause— hiccups over data protection and IT systems, not just “UK Border Agency detention for the Government, but also in the private sector. In the application of PACE orders by virtue of section 22— However, to try to turn back the clock 30 years and (a) no person may be detained in an office of the UK pretend that we do not have to use information to Border Agency for a period exceeding 3 hours, and protect and administer ourselves is mad. E-Borders (b) no person may be detained in a police cell under powers will fulfil a very important role. It will not impinge on granted to the UK Border Agency for more than the privacy of individuals, or their ability to live their 5days.” lives with no interference from the state. However, it will enable us to get those who intend to do us harm, Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I shall be quite quick criminals and those who have no right to come into with this, and I hope that the Minister will accept it; it this great country of ours. On that basis, I call on the is straightforward. It would put into the Bill the limits noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment. on the length of time that someone may be held in different types of facility by the UK Border Agency. Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, By definition, we are almost definitely talking about can the Minister clarify one thing? He says that there either illegal immigrants or somebody who has been is no intention to stop people travelling for legitimate apprehended at the border for other reasons. It is purposes. Would he define a “legitimate purpose” as necessary that we put this in the Bill because the absolutely everything that does not constitute a criminal Government have created this confusing bundle of purpose? powers, sharing around customs and revenue functions to different officials, and then adding to that those Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, that is quite a who will be covered by the PACE provisions. That difficult question which I need to think about a little means that police-type functions are being envisaged more carefully. Can I have a think about exactly what for people who are not police. We would like to be a “legitimate purpose” is, and get my lawyers to look clear about who is allowed to do what under these at exactly what it is, before I make a statement here? I provisions. refuse to call myself a simple sailor again, but I can see myself stepping into a great Pooh trap over some The Government introduced the new clauses on definition. PACE powers so that we would have them in the Bill. That is well and good, but in Clause 22(4) we have a Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, can the Minister reference to people who are held in UK Border Agency confirm that there is no intention to extend these detention if they are in, measures to internal travel, and that they are for “an office of the UK Border Agency”. cross-border travel? I would like to explore how, if at all, an office of the UK Border Agency might be categorised. Plainly it is Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, absolutely. This different from a police cell. The Minister made some would not apply to travel between, say, England, Scotland efforts, in correspondence and in Committee, to describe and Wales. As I am sure that the noble Lord is aware, what was meant by “short-term” accommodation. In however, we are coming up on the issue of the common correspondence and in Committee, the Minister travel area. The Republic of Ireland and ourselves are endeavoured to describe what is meant by short-term 695 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 696 accommodation. In Committee, he explained that places confirmed. I think that the maximum length of time that are now designated as short-term holding facilities that a person can be held in a UKBA office—I am will, or may, in future be used to detain persons under subject to correction if I am wrong—is dealt with in customs and revenue investigation powers. Do offices Section 2 of the UK Borders Act 2007. It prescribes of the UK Border Agency fall into that category? that a person may be detained only for three hours. My amendment makes it absolutely clear that there Although there is no reading across to Clause 22 in the is a firm difference between premises partly occupied Bill, I take it that the powers which are exercised to by the UK Border Agency—that is one of the definitions hold somebody in one of these offices would be the given in Clause 22(4)—and police cells. I do not want powers in the UK Borders Act. If not, should there to see any confusion about where people can be held not be some reference back to the UK Borders Act so and for how long. If they are held in an office of the that we know that the three hours applies to both? UK Border Agency by a member of staff of the UK As regards detention in a police cell, the noble Border Agency who has rights under PACE to hold Baroness, Lady Hanham, has put her finger on a people, they can be held there only for three hours to problem that exists and which has been extremely sort the matter out. If they want to hold a person for troublesome from time to time. Where the police detain longer, they will have to find a policeman and put someone and hold them in a cell under immigration them in a police cell before the three hours are up. Act powers, they are normally transferred fairly rapidly Under the UK Borders Act, once they are in a police to UKBA officials, but delays do occur, and the limit cell, they can be held for no more than seven days, as of seven days is exceeded in certain cases. We need to the Minister said in his letter. We need to make it watch this very carefully and take steps under this Bill absolutely clear that they can actually only be held for to see that the rules are properly observed, which they five days. The seven days applies only to someone who are not always at the moment. is to be deported. However, this is an awfully long time to be held in a police cell and we want to be very clear what this is all about. 5.45 pm I hope the Minister will accept that these limits not Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, this amendment only must be observed but are germane to the Bill and would impact the UK Border Agency’s operational should be clearly stated. If there are rights under the effectiveness, and I must resist it. The noble Baroness, Bill and there are responsibilities under PACE as Lady Hanham, asked whether police-type functions regards arresting and holding people, it is proper for are envisaged by border force officers. The answer is the relevant measure in the UK Borders Act to be yes. They will have powers of arrest, detention and included in the Bill. I beg to move. other enforcement powers, as immigration HMRC officers currently do. That is why it is essential to apply Lord Avebury: My Lords, this amendment seeks to PACE to these officers. limit the time that a person can be held in a UK It might be helpful if I explain that the Police and Border Agency office—the place to which he is initially Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Application to Revenue taken under Clause 22(4)(a)—which is normally occupied and Customs) Order 2007 currently allows a person to by designated customs officials. It also deals with be detained following arrest for a maximum of six detention in police cells. hours in a non-designated office of HM Revenue and The Minister’s letter of 10 March went into some Customs. This is a reasonable period, and it currently detail describing the categories of powers exercised by enables HM Revenue and Customs to deal effectively UKBA officials, and now by some 4,500 HMRC officials with a significant number of arrested persons at its under the Bill. There is administrative detention under offices at ports and airports. Cases which may be the 1971 Act of a person pending their examination, resolved within a six-hour period are dealt with without removal or deportation; detention under the UK Borders the need to transfer arrested persons to custody suites Act of a person who may be liable to arrest or who is or to police stations. the subject of an arrest warrant, and detention following The arrested person is protected by the application arrest by an immigration officer for an offence under of the PACE codes of practice regardless of whether the 1971 Act. In addition, customs officials have powers he or she is at an office of HM Revenue and Customs of arrest and detention under the Customs and Excise or detained in a designated custody suite or police Management Act 1979, which can now be exercised station. As I have said previously in debating the presumably by immigration officers as well. application of PACE, PACE (Northern Ireland) and As we understand it, the short-term holding facilities the PACE codes to the UK Border Agency, we need to mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, ensure that, in so far as they will in future be investigating could be used for all three categories, and by the police and detaining people for the same offences and exercising to detain people pending charges for ordinary criminal the same functions at the border as officers of HMRC offences or terrorist offences committed at a port. This do currently, designated customs officials of the agency means that the population of the facility could be have the same powers and are required to provide the extremely variable in terms of the seriousness of any same safeguards. offence they may have committed, and the appropriate That includes ensuring that the same power as is degree of security that should apply to them. currently in place to allow a person arrested for a The new definition of a short-term holding facility customs offence to be detained at an office of HM also allows a person to be detained indefinitely in one Revenue and Customs for six hours is available in of those facilities, as the amended definition read out respect of future detention of persons by designated by the Minister in Committee at col. 287 of Hansard customs officials in offices of the UK Border Agency. 697 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 698

[LORD WEST OF SPITHEAD] someone on their way without a problem. The shorter Accordingly, Clause 22 will impose a similar limit on period of time would cause them problems as they the detention of a person in a non-designated UK might not be able to resolve the issues. Border Agency office of six hours following his or her The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, asked about the UK arrest by a designated customs official. Border Agency office. It is modelled on an existing PACE provision: HMRC offices equipped and managed Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt identically to police stations, including cells and so on, the noble Lord, but we might be able to get an answer with an interview room and the ability for overnight on this point. I have been absolutely clear all along accommodation for those arrested for customs offences. that the holding power of arrest under PACE was three hours, and the Minister keeps talking about six Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, Clause 22(6) states: hours. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has very kindly “A person may be transferred— just handed me the UK Borders Act, which states (a) between UK Border Agency detention and Revenue and absolutely clearly: Customs detention”. “An individual may not be detained under this section”— Whether the period is six or three hours, will that be which is on the designation of an immigration officer— the total number of hours or will each of those detentions “for longer than three hours”. incur a new period of detention? Have I made myself I had never understood it to be other than three hours. clear? We discussed it as three hours in Committee ad nauseam, Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, it will be six and no one corrected us. I believe that it is three hours hours in total. Of course, HMRC and the old BIA are unless the officer is a policeman, in which case the now one body. It will be six hours in total for them to police are governed by different legislation. investigate whether it is an immigration or a border and customs issue. Lord Hylton: My Lords, when the Minister replies, could he also say what is meant by “short-term holding Lord Avebury: My Lords, we have a problem here. facility” in Clause 25? We touched on this in Committee, Under Section 2 of the UK Borders Act 2007, an but I am not sure that we got an answer. immigration officer can detain someone for only three hours, whereas the customs, under the legislation quoted Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, as I understand by the Minister, have always been able to detain someone it, unless the Box tells me I am wrong, the Police and for a period of six hours. In Clause 22(4), we are Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Application to Revenue talking about an office of the UK Border Agency. The and Customs) Order 2007 currently allows a person to noble Lord has just said that because the customs be detained, following arrest, for a maximum of six function is to be integrated within the UK Border hours in a non-designated office of HMRC. That is Agency, it has suddenly acquired the power to detain what I understand, unless I am told otherwise. The someone for six hours, when up until the point when three-hour limit is the power referred to specifically in the Bill comes into effect, no immigration officer will subsection (3) of the UK Borders Act on power to have been able to detain someone in one of the offices detain at a port. The other power is a standard over- for longer than three hours. We have just learnt that arching power to hold someone for six hours. Section this afternoon, somewhat to my distress. I was involved 30 of PACE allows a person to be detained at any in the detail of the UK Borders Act proceedings in HMRC or police office for a period of six hours. The Committee and on Report and I thought three hours provision in the UK Borders Act is for a different was a perfectly legitimate maximum. To learn that we purpose. have suddenly doubled that to six hours is a matter of enormous concern. I hope the Minister will be able to Baroness Hanham: My Lords, perhaps the Minister clear up that discrepancy. would confirm that an immigration officer or a customs officer is entitled to hold someone for three hours, Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I hope I can which was my clear understanding. Perhaps no one clarify this a little. The three hours relate to waiting for here can help us. Section 2(1)(a) of the UK Borders the police to come along and investigate; the six hours Act, referring to detention, says, are for a border force official to do the investigation. I “may be liable to arrest by a constable under section 24(1)”. think we need more clarification on this. I am not That is all the Police and Criminal Evidence Act goes happy with the advice I am getting. I agree that there is on. Then it says that a designated immigration officer confusion here, which is not satisfactory. This needs to who detains an individual, which is what we are talking be resolved, and I shall do that. about, can hold for three hours. Do noble Lords wish me to go on to the issue of five days and seven days? I do not know how it is best Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, there is confusion to take the other issue forward. I will take it away, here. The three-hour limit is the power in Section 2 of clarify the position and write to noble Lords who have the UK Borders Act 2007 for a designated immigration attended this debate. I hope that there is sense and officer, but the six-hour limit comes in the Police and logic behind it. If there is, we will leave it as it is; if Criminal Evidence Act, as I have stated. Clearly, there there is not, I undertake to come back and do something is confusion here which needs to be resolved and I about it in the Bill. shall ensure that that is done. Those involved have As regards the five and seven days, the noble Baroness argued with me that they need six hours because in is right. The extra 48 hours are for us to be able to that time they could clear up a problem and send move someone from a port. Say he has come in to 699 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 700

Heathrow and we know that there is a flight we can get Lord Avebury: My Lords, this amendment ensures for him, but it is 24 hours away, it would be madness to IPCC oversight of the exercise of immigration and transfer him to some other facility after five days and customs functions and of the provision of services then have to move him back again. The period is five under arrangements for the discharge of those functions, days absolutely, but the seven days are because there is whether in the UK or abroad. It provides that complaints a 48-hour period when we know a person will go on a can be made to the IPCC about the conduct of customs flight. That is how we have arrived at that seven-day and immigration officials, whether they be in the UK period. or at the juxtaposed controls that we discussed at I am sorry that that was a rather unsatisfactory length in Committee. At that point, we moved a answer on the first matter. I will take it forward in the similar amendment to this one, Amendment 37. I refer way that I said. I hope that on that basis the noble to col. 293 of the Official Report of 25 February. We Baroness will be happy to withdraw her amendment. have now changed that amendment to recognise the roles that were added to the functions of the IPCC in Lord Hylton: My Lords, is what the Minister said what is now Clause 30, which I very much welcome, about five and seven days the meaning of “short-term” extending the remit of the IPCC to include the private holding? In that case, how long is short-term? contractors of the UK Borders Agency. Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, as I understand The Minister said then that there was no need to it, “short-term” relates to the facility in which we keep provide power for independent investigation of misconduct people for the six or three-hour period, not the five-day by officials at overseas posts because they did not period. exercise enforcement powers. On juxtaposed controls, the Minister said: Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: My Lords, can the Minister bear in mind that what we have been talking “The Government are considering whether an independent about in relation to three hours and six hours arises oversight system can be put in place for matters arising at the only in a clause that deals with the application of juxtaposed controls”. —[Official Report, 25/02/09; col. 295.] PACE orders? However, the Act will apply to Scotland On the escorting of those who are being removed or also. I would be grateful if the Minister could look at deported from the UK, he added that, the issue of three hours and six hours and see how it “the IPCC jurisdiction does not cover detention in the escorting impacts in relation to Clause 24, which concerns of prisoners on probation outward from the UK. An individual investigations and detention in Scotland. Exactly the being escorted for deportation ... is really for the Prisons and same points might be relevant but have to be dealt Probation Ombudsman. There probably is something here that with separately with regard to the legislation that needs a little more looking into. My Box tells me that this is a presently applies in Scotland, which is different from Prisons and Probation Ombudsman issue but I will look into it a PACE. little more because it looks like something could fall between the cracks and I want to look at it”.—[Official Report, 25/02/09; Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I will certainly col. 297.] do that. The importance of provision for independent investigation of complaints of misconduct by immigration Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I am grateful to have officers and the private contractors at juxtaposed controls had this debate because it was important to have done and in the course of escorted removals, especially the so. I will be extremely grateful for the Minister’s latter, was highlighted by the Outsourcing Abuse dossier, clarification on this because it looks to me as if we which is now being investigated by Dame Nuala O’Loan. may need three items in the Bill to clarify this. I hope It would be very useful if the Minister could tell us that we will be allowed to come back to this at Third when it is expected to report, because I dare say that Reading in the light of what the Minister says. I think we will not make any progress until we know what the the Third Reading rules will allow us to do so, so we recommendations are. might be able to clarify both the points that have been raised. I thank the Minister for his honesty in admitting If the Government will not accept the amendment, to not quite knowing the answer and look forward to we need an explanation of how they are going to receiving his letter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. ensure that misconduct overseas by officials or contractors, particularly at the juxtaposed controls or during escorted Amendment 20 withdrawn. removals, can be adequately investigated. We should Amendment 21 not moved. also like to hear from the Minister about the division of responsibility for investigation of misconduct within Clause 30: Complaints and misconduct the UK between the IPCC and the ombudsman. 6pm In Committee, my noble friend Lady Miller raised the distinct situations in Northern Ireland and Scotland, Amendment 22 where the IPCC remit does not run. On Scotland, the Minister promised to write to my noble friend, but she Moved by Lord Avebury still awaits an answer to her question. We understand 22: Clause 30, page 23, line 26, at end insert— that there has been some correspondence between the “(2B) Regulations made under subsection (1) or (2A) may Home Office and the Scottish Government on extending make provision conferring functions on the Independent Police Complaints Commission in respect of the exercise of immigration the remit of the Police Complaints Commissioner for functions, customs functions and the provision of services pursuant Scotland to match the extended remit to be granted to to arrangements relating to the discharge of those functions the IPCC in Clause 30. We should be grateful for a whether in the UK or overseas.” progress report on that matter. 701 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 702

[LORD AVEBURY] would need in order to investigate matters in the way Regarding Northern Ireland, the Minister said that envisaged in the amendment. Secondly, if it is intended the police ombudsman there will be given statutory to propose that the IPCC look at matters overseas powers to look into serious complaints incidents and involving detention and escorting, this would be a conduct matters in relation to the exercise of specified significant creep in the scope of the matters to be enforcement functions by all border staff and contractors. overseen by it. Further, Section 41(3) of the Police and If it is only specified enforcement functions, does that Justice Act specifically carves out detention and escorting mean a more limited range of matters than in England matters from the IPCC’s remit in view of the existing or Scotland? Will the enforcement of the police oversight role given in respect of those matters to the ombudsman’s recommendations be the same as if the Prison and Probation Ombudsman. We would not complaint had been made in one of the other jurisdictions, want to change that position. and to whom will the Police Ombudsman for Northern The policy intention behind Section 41 of the Police Ireland report? In the report on public awareness of and Justice Act 2006 was to ensure that the IPCC the system for complaints to the Police Ombudsman provided independent oversight of UKBA officials for Northern Ireland, it was found that only 11 per exercising enforcement powers consistent with its oversight cent of respondents said that they could go to the of the police and other law enforcement agencies. The police ombudsman if they had a complaint. I wonder amendment would give the IPCC much greater powers whether the Minister expects that there would be as in respect of the border force and its contractors than low a rate with complaints against the UKBA or it has in relation to the police and other agencies that customs, where intrinsically the complainants are less it oversees. We feel that that would be inappropriate. likely to have knowledge of the ombudsman’s powers. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has made clear that Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, Clause 30 extends he has concerns about the oversight arrangements for the existing regulatory making power given to the the escorting of immigration detainees overseas. I Secretary of State in Section 41 of the Police and shall try to explain arrangements in this area. Where a Justice Act 2006 so that she can give the Independent detainee has displayed disruptive behaviour or where Police Complaints Commission an oversight role in we believe he will not comply with removal directions, England and Wales. This will apply in respect of the escorts are provided on the aircraft who are responsible exercise of customs functions by officials of the Secretary for the detainee on the flight, and remain with detainees of State and the Director of Border Revenue, and the until they are handed over in destination countries. Where provision of services—other than those involving escorting the detainee is known to have a medical condition, a and detention, which fall under Part 8 of the Immigration medical escort is provided if required. and Asylum Act 1999—relating to the discharge of Escorting officers are regularly monitored at the those customs functions and the immigration and airport up until the point of departure, which tends to asylum-related enforcement functions referred to in be the point at which a detainee becomes disruptive. It Section 41(1) of the 2006 Act. is often an extremely difficult and very unpleasant As I think the House is aware, oversight of the task for them to do. They are permitted to use reasonable provision of services involving escorting and detention force against non-compliant or disruptive detainees, is already undertaken by the Prison and Probations but only where it is considered necessary and as a last Ombudsman. The noble Lord’s amendment would resort. They are trained in approved methods of control enable the Secretary of State to make regulations and restraint including, where appropriate, the application giving the IPCC an oversight role in respect of the of mechanical restraints such as handcuffs. Restraints functions to which I have referred not only in England will be used only as long as they are assessed to be and Wales, but in Northern Ireland, Scotland and necessary. After each job, escorts are required to provide overseas. end-of-task reports. These include use-of-force reports As has been mentioned, in Committee a similar if force was employed. All uses of force must be amendment was proposed by the noble Lords, Lord recorded and reported to the contract monitor, who Avebury and Lord Roberts of Llandudno. However, reviews every incident to ensure that the use of force is there has been no change to our view that any such proportionate and reasonable. power to extend the IPCC’s jurisdiction is unnecessary The Prisons and Probation Ombudsman is the correct and would be inappropriate. I do not believe that the body to oversee complaints, incidents and conduct IPCC would want that. matters relating to detention and escorting functions The Government are committed to securing undertaken by UKBA’s officers, officials and contractors. appropriate, proportionate oversight of all complaints, In essence the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman incidents and conduct matters relating to the UK investigates deaths in detention and also considers Border Agency or its contractors, but it has always complaints where detainees are not content with the been and remains our intention that the IPCC should response they receive from the border force or the have a role only in relation to the UKBA in England contractor. This oversight is not restricted by geographical and Wales, just as it does in respect of the police and boundaries and therefore the type of escorting work I the other organisations that it oversees. have just described can be referred to the Prisons and I should like to explain why we think it is inappropriate Probation Ombudsman if the complainant is not satisfied to give the Secretary of State power to extend the with the border force’s handling of their complaint. IPCC’s jurisdiction, as envisaged in the amendment. This oversight ensures that there is suitable scrutiny of First, it is not clear that the Government would be able matters arising while immigration subjects are detained, to secure the necessary overseas powers that the IPCC escorted and removed from the UK. 703 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 704

The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, referred to the of serious misconduct. Currently such matters would Home Secretary’s appointment of Dame Nuala O’Loan be investigated by the border force’s professional standards to review independently the border force’s handling of unit. It is not, however, subject to independent oversight. the allegations that appeared in the Independent Turning to oversight of matters arising at the non- newspaper’s Outsourcing Abuse dossier. This concerns juxtaposed overseas locations, such as those where cases where it was suggested that some of those removed immigration liaison managers, formerly known as airline from the United Kingdom had been assaulted by the liaison officers, operate, I can confirm that no enforcement border force’s staff and its contractors. I am afraid powers are exercised at these locations. that I cannot give an exact date when the report will With regard to Northern Ireland, the Government come out. Under new arrangements, all allegations of plan to introduce in a Bill later this year proposals for serious misconduct against the border force staff and the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland to play a contractors are now investigated by the professional similar role there to that which the IPCC has currently standards unit, a specially trained team of investigators in England and Wales. Oversight in Scotland is already independent of other business areas. These arrangements provided by the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal were implemented in response to the Complaints Audit Service, which has a role to play in case of death or Committee’s recommendations for improving the quality inference of criminality. I apologise for not having of investigations. The Prisons and Probation Ombudsman sent the letter and will ensure that I do so to give the provides a robust oversight of detention complaints best response on that. where the complainant is dissatisfied with the investigation carried out by UKBA investigators. If there are any points that I have missed, I shall be UKBA officers and officials are exempt from happy to write to the noble Lord, but I hope that he is prosecution under French or Belgian law for acts reassured that the existing and planned provisions will committed in the UK control zone at juxtaposed ensure that such serious matters are subject to an controls in those countries where the relevant acts take appropriate and proportionate level of scrutiny and place in the course of the officers’ or officials’ duties. will therefore feel able to withdraw his amendment. Under the terms of the treaties in place for juxtaposed controls, those matters are investigated by the authorities 6.15 pm of the host state and all evidence gathered is handed Lord Avebury: I am grateful to the Minister for that over to the relevant police authorities in the UK for comprehensive reply, although it raises some further consideration under UK law. All criminal matters that anxiety in my mind, particularly over his response to do not relate to the exercise of official functions in a the question on the complaints made at the juxtaposed UK control zone are a matter for the French and controls. He said that a senior customs official deals Belgian authorities and will be processed in accordance with them, but that person cannot be fully independent with their domestic legislation. now that we are talking about the integration of the I am sure that your Lordships will also wish to customs and immigration services. However independently know what oversight there is of contractors at the minded the person may be, he is not technically juxtaposed controls and, in particular, of those who independent of the service that he is investigating. search freight. Section 40 of the Immigration, Asylum That arrangement must be looked at again to see and Nationality Act 2006 provided for and regulated whether the person who is investigating the complaints the work of contractors searching freight at border could be separated entirely from those whom he is control. The UK border force currently employs Eamus looking into. Cork Solutions—ECS—a French security company at The Minister is aware that I have a particular juxtaposed controls. Given the limitation on its jurisdiction anxiety about the situation with juxtaposed controls, to England and Wales, the IPCC is not responsible for where I do not think that we exercise real oversight. overseeing those contractors. However, the legislation He confirmed that when there was a case of alleged provides for a Crown servant to be appointed to criminal misconduct by any of the UK staff or contractors, monitor the exercise of these powers, to inspect the it would be for the French or Belgian criminal authorities way in which they are exercised and to investigate and to look into it. We do not get any knowledge of the report to the Secretary of State any allegations made reports that are made to the French and Belgian against a contractor. authorities, but this Parliament should be aware of what is going on. We have always said that the juxtaposed Lord Avebury: My Lords, who will do that? Can the controls are not liable to the same kind of parliamentary Minister tell us? scrutiny as the services of the immigration authorities in this country. The noble Lord confirmed what we Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I asked exactly have always feared. There is not the same oversight as the same question this morning when I was being if the events took place at Yarl’s Wood or at detention briefed. The role of the monitor is currently carried offices at Heathrow or Gatwick. The juxtaposed controls out by a designated senior customs official. are less open to scrutiny and, as far as I know, there To strengthen these arrangements in the light of the has never been a report laid before your Lordships’ formation of UKBA, consideration is being given on House or another place summarising the complaints whether an independent system of oversight can be that have been made to the French or Belgian authorities put in place in respect of matters arising at the juxtaposed about the treatment of people detained in those centres. controls that involve border force officers, officials With regard to what the Minister said about Scotland and/or contracted staff and which, though they do not and Northern Ireland, we will await the reply that he warrant criminal investigation, represent allegations has promised to give to my noble friend. We will digest 705 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 706

[LORD AVEBURY] much about people who are in this country illegally, that and the other helpful remarks that he has made the problems that that causes and the difficulty that about these services. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the Government have in removing them that we should the amendment. be making sure that all those who wish to stay for a period of time do so by using legal and proper channels. Amendment 22 withdrawn. We are seeking to prevent retrospectivity. In his letter to us, the noble Lord, Lord Brett, suggested that Amendment 23 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled those who are currently on indefinite leave to remain List. and those moving into citizenship within the next year or so will not have anything to do under the new Amendment 23A citizenship arrangements, but those who are on limited Moved by Baroness Hanham leave to remain will be affected by transitional 23A: Before Clause 39, insert the following new Clause— arrangements. We are seeking to ensure that those who are in the closing stages of limited leave to remain “Exceptions to application of this Part do not get caught up in the transitional arrangements. Nothing in this Part shall affect an application— Many of them have been on the path for three, four or (a) which has been submitted at any time in the twelve five years and are ready to move on. It seems completely months prior to the commencement of this Part by any person for limited leave to remain in the United unfair that they should have to go back and start again Kingdom, or or even take into account the earned citizenship provisions (b) made prior to the commencement of this Part by any in this Bill. I beg to move. person, for the following— (i) indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom; Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, perhaps or noble Lords have had a chance to see the ninth report (ii) British citizenship.” of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which is hot off the press; it was published this afternoon. The Baroness Hanham: My Lords, the principle behind committee, of which I am a member, went to great this proposed new clause, which would be inserted trouble to rush it out in order that it would be available before Clause 39, is fairness. The Government are for Report. It is in the PPO and I recommend that seeking to change the routes in this Bill for those noble Lords have a copy, as it is rather relevant. I am applying for various categories of naturalisation and speaking to support this amendment on behalf of the residence in this country. However, we have some committee. The best way that I can do that is by issues with some of the planned changes. The people referring to the report, which is unanimous, all-party who have faithfully adhered to the current rules and and beyond party. thought that they were firmly established on the road Paragraph 1.50, under the heading “Retrospectivity”, to citizenship should not now have the rug pulled from says: beneath their feet. They have an expectation of a “The Bill does not make clear what the effect of the new timescale in which their naturalisation will be fulfilled. provisions will be on those whose applications for citizenship are pending on the date at which the Act comes into force, or on Since the last debate in Committee, I have been inundated, others further down the path to citizenship, such as those with as I am sure have other noble Lords, with letters and limited leave to remain who have not yet qualified for indefinite messages from people in categories that my amendment leave to remain. There are no transitional arrangements ... We would help. They have movingly and eloquently expressed expressed our concern about the injustice done by retrospective their worry, anger and distress that the Government changes to rules which affect migrants’ eligibility to settle in the are prepared to muck them about yet again. The UK in our report on the Highly Skilled Migrants Programme”. Government have already changed the highly skilled That was in 2007. migrant programme and applied that retrospectively, “Those concerns were subsequently upheld by the High Court even though there is a court case against that, so they and the Government was forced by court order to do what we had must take note of what is happening to those on what sought to persuade them to do in Parliament: honour the legitimate expectations of those who had planned their future lives in the used to be called limited leave to remain. UK on the basis of the law as it stood when they came to this My amendment has two paragraphs. The second country ... The Minister told the House of Lords that ‘we have yet deals with persons in the latter stages of the citizenship to make a final decision on how our proposals will impact on process who are at the most advanced stage of getting people who are already in the immigration system.’ He promised their UK passports and ought to be protected. The to provide a note explaining to whom the transitional arrangements Government have recognised this but the debate in will apply”. Committee did not end as clearly as we had hoped. If We put the following in bold, and it is entirely on all provisional arrangements are to be put in place, I fours with the powerful speech that the noble Baroness would like to hear them explained fully on the Floor has just made. of the House. It is imperative that we get protection “We urge the Government not to repeat the unedifying spectacle of riding roughshod over migrants’ legitimate expectations of for those who are on the road. settlement, which undermined many migrants’ faith in the UK’s The first paragraph seeks to protect those who are a commitment to basic fairness ... We recommend that clear transitional little further away from the ultimate goal of citizenship— provisions are made which meet the legitimate expectations of those seeking indefinite leave to remain but who are those already in the system”. currently on limited leave to remain. I deliberately set That, as I understand it, is the basis of this amendment. the period to within 12 months of the commencement It is a matter of great importance in terms of public because the longer the Government dither and hold confidence and we hope that Ministers will feel able to on to this, the less certainty people have. We hear so support it and not oppose it. 707 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 708

Lord Avebury: My Lords, I welcome the fact that who are in a category leading to ILR or who have an my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill has drawn application pending for asylum/humanitarian protection attention to these important paragraphs in the JCHR or a human rights claim whose claim is subsequently report, which I have had the chance to look at while he granted. was speaking. I said in Committee that officials were examining The amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady what transitional arrangements will apply to those Hanham, would provide transitional protection, but with ILR when earned citizenship becomes law, and I only for those who have outstanding applications for have written to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, about indefinite leave to remain or for British citizenship at that. I hope that he and other noble Lords who are the time of commencement of the provisions in Part 2, interested in this have seen a copy of the letter and so it is more limited than the recommendations of the have had a chance to read what I have said about the JCHR. In Committee, at col. 540, the Minister gave an transitional arrangements that we propose. I will, however, assurance that any application for naturalisation that summarise the position. Migrants with a pending had been lodged before the earned citizenship provisions application for ILR that is submitted but not decided came into effect would be treated under existing before the Immigration Rules are changed following arrangements. He went on to say that an examination commencement of the earned citizenship provisions was in progress to determine what transitional will have their applications considered under the existing arrangements should be made for those in the immigration rules. This is also the case for those who have a system who had yet to submit an application for ILR pending human rights or humanitarian protection or for naturalisation. claim or who have applied for asylum. I asked the Minister at the time whether the transitional Any migrant who already has ILR in the UK will arrangements for all those in the system, including be deemed to have permanent residence status for the those who had applied for ILR, would take into purposes of the earned citizenship clauses. They will account the ruling, referred to indirectly by the JCHR not need to make an application to be recognised as a and my noble friend, upholding the right of legitimate permanent resident or pay any sort of fee, and they expectation and against retrospection in the Immigration will continue to have full access to benefits and services, Rules in the case of HSMP Forum Ltd, which I subject to the general eligibility criteria. Migrants with quoted in Committee. I had not given the Minister ILR, or those whose pending application for ILR is prior notice of that question but, now that he has had subsequently successful when the earned citizenship the opportunity to consider it, can we have it on the clauses in the Bill are commenced, will be able to apply record that the transitional arrangements, including to be naturalised under existing Section 6 of and those for people whose applications for ILR were Schedule 1 to the British Nationality Act 1981, provided lodged prior to commencement, will have full regard that they apply within a set period after the clauses to that judgment? have been commenced. We have not yet confirmed this I appreciate that there is a problem regarding persons period, but it is likely to be for between 18 and now on limited leave to remain who need to complete 24 months after the clauses have commenced. Such a five years—or two in the case of closely related family— period is fair, given that the aim behind our proposals before they can apply for ILR. The principle should be is to encourage more people who are here legally to that they reach the point where they were entitled to become British citizens, as the noble Baroness, Lady apply for naturalisation no later than they would have Hanham, said. done in the absence of this Bill. We would be grateful We do not propose that the transitional arrangements for an assurance to that effect from the Minister. should permit those who do not have ILR when the earned citizenship clauses in the Bill are commenced 6.30 pm to be able to apply to be naturalised under existing Lord Brett: My Lords, I will leave the question of Section 6 of and Schedule 1 to the British Nationality the JCHR report for a moment. We are seeking to Act 1981 after the changes have taken effect. This resist the amendments. Noble Lords will recall that means that when the provisions of the Bill come into when we discussed a similar amendment in Committee, force, all migrants with limited leave will have to I confirmed that any application for naturalisation progress through the earned citizenship architecture received by the UKBA before the earned citizenship to obtain British citizenship or permanent residence. provisions are implemented, and which remains undecided The Government will undertake information at point, will be considered under existing arrangements campaigns between now and the implementation of set out in the British Nationality Act 1981. To be clear, the earned citizenship proposals to ensure that migrants the earned citizenship clauses will not apply to those are aware of the changes and their impact on them. cases. We will set this out in the commencement order These campaigns will make it clear that the earned giving effect to Part 2 of the Bill. This means that citizenship clauses will not be commenced until the primary legislation is not needed in this area so I hope beginning of 2010 at the earliest. noble Lords will agree that there is no need to discuss The noble Lord, Lord Lester, referred to the JCHR’s this part of the amendment further. However, I see ninth report of Session 2008-09, Legislative Scrutiny: that noble Lords seek assurances about those with Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill, which was limited leave to enter or remain who also have an published very recently. Indeed, the ink is almost still application pending for indefinite leave to remain; wet, and there has been time to give the report only a those who submit an application for limited leave cursory glance. The Government will respond to the to remain within the 12-month period prior to JCHR’s four major recommendations in due course. commencement; and those with limited leave to remain The noble Lord asked about retrospection. The 709 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 710

[LORD BRETT] 6.37 pm Government are trying to encourage new and fundamental approaches to citizenship, and we continue to examine Division on Amendment 23A what transitional arrangements will apply. I can confirm, Contents 171; Not-Contents 110. as I already have done, who will be allowed access without reference to the new clauses and who will not. Amendment 23A agreed. We will therefore have to consider matters, but let me be clear; the consistent position is that a migrant’s Division No. 1 only legitimate expectation is to be assessed under the rules in force at the time of their application. The CONTENTS question then is: when does that time clock start? In Addington, L. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, the light of the JCHR’s report and the comments of Alton of Liverpool, L. L. the noble Lord, Lord Lester, the sensible thing for us Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Hogg, B. to do is to respond in writing, setting out more clearly Arran, E. Hooper, B. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Hooson, L. the Government’s position. In the mean time, I hope Hamdon, L. Howard of Rising, L. that the amendment will be withdrawn. Astor of Hever, L. Howe, E. Attlee, E. Hunt of Wirral, L. Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, on a matter Avebury, L. Hurd of Westwell, L. of procedure, I realise that we are at a late stage in the Barker, B. Hylton, L. Bill, as we are on Report, and that the JCHR’s report Bates, L. Inglewood, L. had to be published at great speed. Having read the Bell, L. James of Blackheath, L. Best, L. Jenkin of Roding, L. report, the Government may be able to respond at Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Third Reading if amendments can be tabled then. I Bew, L. Blaker, L. Kimball, L. know the rules about Third Reading and how careful Bowness, L. King of Bridgwater, L. one must be not to expand it, but frankly it is the only Bridgeman, V. Kingsland, L. opportunity that the House will have to deal with Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Kirkham, L. Knight of Collingtree, B. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, some of the issues in the report before the Bill becomes Krebs, L. law. I say that now simply in the hope that if we cannot L. Laird, L. deal with the report in next week’s debates on Report, Brougham and Vaux, L. Lamont of Lerwick, L. we may have to come back to some of these issues at Burnett, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Third Reading. Butler-Sloss, B. Lawson of Blaby, L. Byford, B. Leach of Fairford, L. Caithness, E. Lee of Trafford, L. Lord Brett: My Lords, the noble Lord makes an Cameron of Lochbroom, L. Lester of Herne Hill, L. important and helpful suggestion, and I think we Carnegy of Lour, B. Lindsay, E. should seek to make our response to the report available Chester, Bp. Listowel, E. very quickly so that it can be considered. If we could Clement-Jones, L. Luke, L. return to it next week, it would be helpful to all Colwyn, L. Lyell, L. concerned. Cope of Berkeley, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. Cotter, L. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Courtown, E. McNally, L. Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the Minister Craigavon, V. Maddock, B. again for his reply, although it was not very helpful. I De Mauley, L. Mar, C. am extremely grateful, too, for sight of the report that Denham, L. Marland, L. has just been issued. We understood as clearly as we Dholakia, L. Marlesford, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Masham of Ilton, B. could after the last sitting that the Government were D’Souza, B. Mawson, L. going to allow those with indefinite leave to remain to Dykes, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. move to the next stage without any transitional Eccles, V. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, arrangements, and we included the two extra areas in Elliott of Morpeth, L. B. our amendment to seek to have that established in the Elton, L. Montrose, D. Bill. That is what the Minister had said. Erroll, E. Morris of Bolton, B. Falkland, V. Neill of Bladen, L. We are less than happy with the Minister’s reply Feldman, L. Neuberger, B. about those with limited leave to remain. We made it Ferrers, E. Newby, L. quite clear in our amendment that we were looking at Fowler, L. Newton of Braintree, L. those who are in the final stages of limited leave to Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Noakes, B. Freeman, L. Northbrook, L. remain before making their application. The report is Gardner of Parkes, B. Northesk, E. extremely important, and it totally underlines what we Geddes, L. Northover, B. have been saying: that it is inherently unfair to people Glasgow, E. Norton of Louth, L. who have started on a process to change it suddenly Glentoran, L. O’Cathain, B. midway. For migrants on higher levels, this will be for Goodhart, L. Palmer, L. Goodlad, L. Palumbo, L. the second time, and with a court case against them. Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Parkinson, L. I am sure that the Minister’s written reply to the Hamilton of Epsom, L. Pilkington of Oxenford, L. report will be very good, and I am sure that there will Hamwee, B. Prior, L. be an opportunity to discuss it further, but those in the Hanham, B. Rawlings, B. latter stages of limited leave to remain should not be Hanningfield, L. Reay, L. Harris of Peckham, L. Rennard, L. left in limbo any longer, not knowing what their Harris of Richmond, B. Roberts of Conwy, L. process is. I therefore beg leave to test the opinion of Hayhoe, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. the House. Higgins, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. 711 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 712

Ryder of Wensum, L. Swinfen, L. Warner, L. Wilkins, B. Sainsbury of Preston Taverne, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Winston, L. Candover, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. West of Spithead, L. Woolmer of Leeds, L. St. John of Bletso, L. Teverson, L. Whitty, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Sandwich, E. Thomas of Walliswood, B. Scott of Needham Market, B. Thomas of Winchester, B. 6.49 pm Seccombe, B. Tonge, B. Selborne, E. Tope, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Tordoff, L. Sharples, B. Trenchard, V. Clause 39: Application requirements: general Sheikh, L. Trimble, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. Tyler, L. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Amendment 24 Skelmersdale, L. Verma, B. Slim, V. Vinson, L. Moved by Lord Hylton Smith of Clifton, L. Waddington, L. Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L. Wade of Chorlton, L. 24: Clause 39, page 29, line 19, after “has” insert “refugee Steel of Aikwood, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. status, humanitarian protection status,” Stern, B. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Stewartby, L. Walmsley, B. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Walpole, L. Lord Hylton: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Strathclyde, L. Wilcox, B. Lord, Lord West of Spithead, for seeing me with his Sutherland of Houndwood, L. Williamson of Horton, L. officials since Committee stage, for at least two written replies and for bringing forward several government NOT CONTENTS amendments in this group. I will speak also to the Acton, L. Howarth of Newport, L. three amendments in my name in this group. Adams of Craigielea, B. Howells of St. Davids, B. As regards Amendment 24, I suggest that Ahmed, L. Howie of Troon, L. Clause 39(2)(c) is unclear and that subsection (11) is Anderson of Swansea, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. not sufficiently explicit. Amendment 24 is designed to Andrews, B. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. assist the integration of genuine recognised refugees Archer of Sandwell, L. Janner of Braunstone, L. and those granted long-term humanitarian protection. Bach, L. Jones, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Refugees should be helped to integrate. They should [Teller] Judd, L. be mentioned in the Bill; that will provide practical Bernstein of Craigweil, L. King of West Bromwich, L. help to those who have to practise and advise in these Bilston, L. Kingsmill, B. matters. Borrie, L. Kinnock, L. Bradley, L. Layard, L. Amendment 31 is designed to ensure that time Brett, L. Lea of Crondall, L. spent by refugees in Britain, prior to a determination Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Lipsey, L. of their claims, counts as part of the qualifying period Brookman, L. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. for citizenship. The United Nations High Commissioner Brooks of Tremorfa, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. for Refugees does not want to see delayed decisions Campbell-Savours, L. Massey of Darwen, B. Carter of Coles, L. Maxton, L. and the time taken over appeals postponing the grant Corbett of Castle Vale, L. May of Oxford, L. of citizenship. This is most relevant to the so-called Crawley, B. Meacher, B. backlog cases where years go by with no decision Cunningham of Felling, L. Morgan of Drefelin, B. being reached. Davies of Coity, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller] Morris of Manchester, L. Amendment 37 is designed to assist the earliest Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, Morris of Yardley, B. possible integration into British society of refugees B. Myners, L. and protected persons. It also removes the requirement Desai, L. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. to take part in community activities. Refugees, by Dixon, L. Patel of Blackburn, L. definition, have usually suffered and have lost their Donoughue, L. Pendry, L. Drayson, L. Pitkeathley, B. home countries. They have a specified and recognised Dubs, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. status here and should not be expected to prove themselves Eames, L. Puttnam, L. like classes of migrants who are applying for citizenship. Elder, L. Quin, B. Elystan-Morgan, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. My Amendment 41 covers bona fide refugees who Evans of Parkside, L. Richard, L. have been accepted as such, who may, through force of Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Robertson of Port Ellen, L. circumstances, have had to enter the United Kingdom Faulkner of Worcester, L. Rooker, L. by illegal means, provided that they have declared Ford, B. Rosser, L. themselves to the authorities as soon as possible after Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Rowlands, L. entry. My amendment will be helpful to practitioners Gale, B. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Scotland of Asthal, B. because it includes the relevant article of the convention Golding, B. Sewel, L. in the Bill. I should add that there has been a very Gordon of Strathblane, L. Simon, V. small misprint in the text of Amendment 41. After the Goudie, B. Snape, L. words “UN Convention on Refugees” the brackets Graham of Edmonton, L. Soley, L. should contain the figures 1951. I beg to move. Harris of Haringey, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Hart of Chilton, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Haskel, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, in supporting Haworth, L. Thornton, B. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Tomlinson, L. the general approach to all these amendments, perhaps Hollis of Heigham, B. Tunnicliffe, L. I may draw attention to what the Joint Committee on Howarth of Breckland, B. Wall of New Barnet, B. Human Rights has written about this, so that it can be 713 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 714

[LORD LESTER OF HERNE HILL] despair of people who are ready to put up with that considered by the Minister and the Government. At sort of journey. We should remember too those who paragraph 1.53 of our report, under the heading came in a refrigerated van and were found to have died “Compatibility with Refugee Convention”, we first on their journey when they reached Dover. refer to introductory matters, including the fact that The situation can be desperate, which means that Article 34 of the refugee convention, we must be people of realistic compassion who are “requires that States ‘expedite naturalisation proceedings’”. ready to give such refugees an opportunity to walk the We pointed out that: path of citizenship. I would expect the word “The UNHCR has expressed its concern that the tighter “humanitarian” from the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. requirements for naturalisation contained in the Bill make it more We still must be a people ready to welcome those who difficult in practice for refugees and those with humanitarian are not in circumstances that we, nor they, would protection to qualify for naturalisation and may in fact operate to desire. We on these Benches welcome this amendment. impair their integration … The Bill would require all refugees and those with humanitarian protection to pass a qualifying period of The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, I have looked at five years plus an additional probationary citizenship period of Official Report three years prior to qualification for naturalisation. The introduction cols. 531-33 of the on 2 March. The of the probationary citizenship period would therefore increase Minister gave my noble friend and the noble Lord, the total period of time before refugees become eligible for Lord Clinton-Davis, and others the reassurance that citizenship to eight years. This could be reduced to six years if the the Government would, person concerned can demonstrate that they have satisfied the “think about a further discretion to cover the time periods taken active citizenship requirement, but that is also a requirement for the consideration of protection cases”.—[Official Report, which refugees may find it difficult to fulfil because of their 2/3/09; col. 532.] particular circumstances of having faced persecution or ill-treatment in the past”. If that is translated and turned into these government amendments, I am still unclear as to whether they At paragraph 1.55 the report states: accept the principle that all recognised refugees, and “We are concerned that the effect of certain of the earned not just the gateway refugees, should not have to go citizenship requirements in the Bill is to make it more difficult for through the hurdles of the qualifying period and refugees and those with humanitarian protection to qualify for naturalisation as a British citizen, contrary to Article 34 of the active citizenship. I do not think that these amendments Refugee Convention. We welcome the fact that the Government go that far. Amendments 28 to 30 and Amendments appears to have acknowledged that these concerns are legitimate 33 and 34 merely provide for discretion. In exceptional and is considering bringing forward its own amendments. We circumstances, the period during which the claim was intend to scrutinise any Government amendments with a view to pending may count towards the qualifying period. I ensuring that adequate exceptions are made for those qualifying hope that the Government will reflect hard on these for citizenship through the protection route”. amendments, which I support, and perhaps move others I am now coming to the end. We continue: in due course. “Article 31 of the Refugee Convention prohibits States from imposing penalties on refugees on account of their illegal entry or 7pm presence. The Bill makes it a requirement of naturalisation that As to penalisation, covered by Amendment 41 to an applicant must not, at any time in the qualifying period, have been in the UK in breach of immigration laws, which is widely Clause 41, the Minister seemed to imply that any defined. The UNHCR is concerned that penalisation for illegal breach of immigration law would only become relevant entry may operate to prolong the period in which refugees or during the period after an asylum seeker had achieved those with humanitarian protection will be able to apply for refugee status. If that is the case, it would be welcome. naturalisation. We agree with this concern … We recommend that Many of us are arguing for more than that. We argue the Bill be amended to ensure that penalisation for illegal entry that the qualifying period for subsequently recognised does not affect the qualifying period for refugees and those with refugees should begin at the point of their entry to the humanitarian protection”. UK. Therefore, the Minister would have to give a I hope that that is all helpful. I am sorry to have to do further assurance that any breach of the law at the this in this way, but the report came in so late. I very time of entry, when a refugee might have been forced much hope that the opposition Front Bench, if it to enter illegally—and we have heard countless examples comes to power, will recognise the value of this committee, of that—would have taken place before the qualifying which has become something of a very important period starting at that time. Could the Minister give addition to both Houses. It is excellent that one can that reassurance? have this debate straight off, with this report being brought to the Minister’s attention and time still for it Lord Avebury: My Lords, Amendment 32 is of the to be properly considered. The speech made by the same mind as the amendment tabled by the noble noble Lord, Lord Hylton, and his amendments are Lord, Lord Hylton. We do not provide for those in the part of what I have been trying to put forward. UK with outstanding applications under European Community law. On the other hand, as well as refugees, Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, in supporting we deal with those granted leave to remain outside the this amendment from these Benches, I should say that rules, where the Secretary of State decides that there our whole reputation is in the balance. Over the years, are exceptional reasons—that do not fall within the we have prided ourselves on having a door that welcomes Immigration Rules—to grant leave to remain. We people who are in desperate situations. Often, the hope that the Government will include the period refugee is the most desperate of all. Two weeks ago, I spent waiting for successful determination of all these spoke to a refugee who had spent four weeks in the claims as half of the qualifying period. That would be back of a lorry travelling from Afghanistan. I know the only way to comply with recommendation 157 in that they should not do that, but let us imagine the the JCHR report, which has already been cited by my 715 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 716 noble friend. I hope that we will get an answer on that months for the conclusion of new asylum claims by this evening and that we will not have to wait for a the end of 2011, it would still be perverse to make written reply from the JCHR because, on the face of refugees escaping persecution wait an average of half it, this is perfectly clear. a year longer than ordinary migrants to become citizens. Our Amendment 52 is also in this group. It adds to We hope to persuade the Government to give the Clause 46, dealing with the meaning of references to matter further consideration. being in breach of the immigration laws. Proposed new subsections make it clear that, during a period of Baroness Stern: My Lords, on the one hand one awaiting successful determination of a claim for asylum, must be grateful to the Government for tabling some or human rights protection, the applicant is not in amendments in response to our discussions on these breach of the immigration laws. One would have thought points. However, as the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, that this was obvious, considering that it had been has said, the amendments do not seem to go far determined that such a person had a legitimate reason enough. I remind the Minister that we are talking here for entering the UK. Section 11(2) of the NIA Act 2002 about people to whom the terms “failed” or “bogus” says that, are not applicable. We are talking about people whose cases have been accepted as legitimate. They have been “reference to being ‘in breach of the immigration laws’”, accepted as refugees or in need of humanitarian protection in the British Nationality Act applies to a person who, and they are entitled, eventually, to become citizens. “does not have leave to enter or remain”, The UNHCR is very clear about what we need to do here. That applies to the refugee while he awaits the to comply with our international obligations on this outcome of his claim. It is therefore necessary to have matter. I very much hope that the Government will these subsections inserted in the definition. They will listen to what the UNHCR has been saying to those of also make it possible for the waiting time to count us involved since this Bill came before us—and what it towards a later citizenship application. continues to say—about what we need to do to comply, which is to treat refugees as the international community We faintly welcome the Government’s amendments, expects and as, in the past, this country has always which allow for discretion to waive the requirement tried to do. for a person to have qualifying immigration status throughout the qualifying period, where a person’s Lord Brett: My Lords, I will try to respond to all temporary leave had expired shortly before his or her items in this group, including the government amendments. application for probationary citizenship, or where the I will start with the JCHR recommendations, which person’s probationary citizenship had expired before we have had little time to study. I can advise noble his or her application for citizenship itself. We also Lords that our officials have corresponded recently agree that the requirement should be waived for successful with the UNHCR and sought to address the points asylum seekers, but not only—as the Minister said in that it raises. Importantly, the Government are clear Committee—where there is an undue delay in determining that we do not believe that our proposed changes are a claim, and this delay is not attributable to the incompatible with Article 34. Although there is nothing claimant. in current UK nationality law or our proposal that There are still some 200,000 so-called legacy cases specifically facilitates the acquisition of nationality by of people who have been in the system for several refugees, the residence requirements are not unduly years. On the Government’s own assertion, those cases onerous for any applicant. It is possible for refugees to are not expected to be cleared until July 2011. The be naturalised. Any decisions not to naturalise are time taken to deal with many current cases is also taken in good faith. profoundly unsatisfactory. At the end of 2008, there Only six years’ lawful residence will be required, or were 10,800 applications awaiting an initial decision, just three years if the applicant is married to a British compared to 6,800 a year earlier, in spite of fewer citizen, ensuring that the active citizen condition is cases arising in 2008. When decisions are finally reached, met in both cases. It is therefore possible for all refugees these are not reliable, as can be seen from the fact that to be naturalised if they meet certain statutory criteria one in four of the appeals determined in the last and these criteria are justifiable. Furthermore, we do quarter of 2008 was successful. In those cases where not believe that, by not counting time spent in temporary the applicant’s case was judicially found to be valid, he admission for purposes of naturalisation, the UK is ought not to be penalised and, at the very least, penalising refugees for illegal entry or breaching Article the time between refusal of the application and the 31 of the 1951 convention. Nothing in the earned determination of the appeal should count towards the citizenship clauses of the Bill imposes criminal sanctions qualifying period. The amendment says that the whole on refugees who enter the UK illegally. time spent awaiting determination of the claim should It might be helpful if I explain that the existing be treated as falling within that qualifying period. requirement not to be in breach of immigration laws, Since the general aim of the Government’s as inserted by Clause 46, is concerned with a person naturalisation policy is to promote greater integration, holding the correct sort of status in the UK rather as the noble Lord, Lord Brett, said in Committee, the than with commission of offences. In future, as now, logical and right solution would be to treat the whole any commission of criminal offences will be taken into of the time from first application to successful account in assessing whether an applicant has the determination as part of the qualifying period. This, separate requirement of good character on the date of again, is referred to in the JCHR report as being part the application for naturalisation in Schedule 1 to the of the UNHCR’s convention, to which we are signatories. BNA 1981. As noble Lords know, we have tabled In the unlikely event of reaching the target of six amendments to ensure that the earned citizenship 717 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 718

[LORD BRETT] mentioned. We do not consider that the time taken to clauses provide a discretion to waive the requirement resolve asylum applications represents a significant to have had a qualified immigration status for the disadvantage in the majority of cases. whole of the qualifying period in relation to applications I reassert the Government’s full commitment to made under Section 6(1) and (2) of the British Nationality meeting their international obligations in respect of Act. Having this discretion will give the necessary those fleeing persecution. However, we do not propose flexibility to the system that we are creating. In the to go as far as permitting any time spent in detention, case of refugees, we would usually expect to exercise it on temporary admission or on temporary release, or where undue delay has occurred in determining an any time spent pending an application for leave to asylum application or where the delay was not attributable remain in connection with an asylum or human rights to the applicant. I will go into further detail as we go claim, to count towards the qualifying period for through the amendments. naturalisation. We will use discretion where this is The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, commented on his appropriate. discussions with my noble friend Lord West. We gave Amendment 37 would amend the Bill so that the an assurance that we would table amendments and we qualifying period for persons granted refugee status or have done so. However, his Amendment 41 goes further humanitarian protection is fixed at five years. I must than the Government’s intent and would allow refugees also resist this amendment. Under the present system— to count any time spent in the UK since entry, including time spent pending an asylum decision, towards the qualifying period for naturalisation. I would like to Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I thank the develop the point. No doubt noble Lords will have Minister for allowing me to intervene. Will he explain looked at the government amendments tabled in the what incentives are to be built in, under his approach, name of my noble friend Lord West. They ensure that to encourage the machinery to deal with refugee claims the discretion to waive the requirement for a qualifying more expeditiously? How is the Home Office going to immigration status for the whole of the qualifying be made to operate more quickly? How will having a period is included in the Bill, thus providing the necessary broad discretion make the system work better, rather flexibility. I have described where it might be applied, than lead to yet more arguments and perhaps more which is where there is a question of undue delay. litigation and thus slow the whole thing down? In terms only of the efficiency of the machine, I do not As I explained in Committee, we do not feel that understand from what the Minister has said how this allowing those who are subsequently recognised as is going to encourage officials to get on with it and refugees to automatically count the time spent in the how it will make the whole thing work better. The UK pending a decision on their asylum claim towards more discretion one gives, the more likely it is that the qualifying period for naturalisation is the right there will be more arguments and in the end higher approach. For example, if we provided an exemption costs, to the detriment of the public interest. on the face of the Bill specifically for refugees, this would have counterproductive results. First, if a person 7.15 pm applied for asylum on arrival in the UK and subsequently absconded and then some months or even years later Lord Brett: My Lords, the short and simple answer came to light and was recognised as a refugee, we to the question put by the noble Lord is that the would have to count the time during which he had UKBA has set itself targets to resolve all fresh asylum absconded towards the qualifying period for naturalisation. claims within six months. Clearly, if a case such as the It seems wrong to reward an abscondee in this way one mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, when others who comply with the process must complete carries on for 18 months through no fault of the the temporary residence and probationary citizenship applicant, that is a clear case where the exercise of stages. It would also go against our aim to increase discretion can be used for the purpose of resolving compliance with the system. Similarly, if an individual undue delay. failed to comply with the system, by not attending interviews, for example, we would not want that time Lord Avebury: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt to count automatically towards the qualifying period. the noble Lord, but will he say something about how Another important point is that in asylum cases a the discretion would be exercised, instead of saying decision is based on the prevailing circumstances at how it would not? He has given two examples. One the time when the case is actually considered, in addition was the case where the person absconded before his to taking into account the facts of the claim when it claim was determined. He then resurfaced and was was originally made. For example, the fact that a successful. The other was where the circumstances in person may be recognised as a refugee does not always the country of origin had changed so that the person mean that he was so from the start. Events in the became a refugee at some point during the currency of country of origin, fresh evidence or fresh case law his application being determined. However, those are could mean that the person qualifies as a refugee only not normal cases. What we are talking about is the after the initial application was made. The amendment normal run of asylum cases where a person complies would mean that a person who may have had no basis with all the rules that are imposed on him, but in the to his claim at the time when it was made could end he has to wait around for a year or 18 months. Is it nevertheless count that time pending his decision towards not then reasonable and in compliance with the passage his qualifying period. UKBA is seeking to determine from the convention quoted by the JCHR for that asylum claims as quickly as possible and has made time to be counted towards his legitimate stay in the considerable progress; the period of six months was country for the purpose of determining his claim? 719 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 720

Lord Brett: My Lords, it depends on how that are intended to meet the concerns that they have period of time is defined and whether it is defined as raised. Therefore, I hope that in moving those amendments the excess period beyond which it would be reasonable we will be able to persuade the noble Lords and the to expect the UKBA to have dealt with an application. noble Baroness not to press the other amendments. We are looking at a target of six months, so, if it took 18 months, it is clear that something must have gone Lord Hylton: My Lords, the Minister has, no doubt, wrong. If it is unlikely that it was the fault of the done a very good job in resisting my amendment, but I applicant, this would be a case where it would be right invite him to explain the precise effect of the five to exercise discretion. amendments that the Government have tabled. The question that arises is what we mean by “undue Lord Brett: My Lords, as I explained in Committee, delay”. That is where guidance will be developed to the Government sought to meet the concerns raised by deal with the circumstances where we should exercise the Liberal amendments put forward at that stage and, the discretion. In broad terms, discretion will be exercised by increasing discretion, for example, to move towards where undue delay has occurred, which would be a meeting the point on undue delay that has been repeated delay that extended significantly beyond the timescale today. Therefore, I believe that while there is no resistance applying to the majority of applicants. If we have a in this House to the government amendments, there is target of six months and we meet it for the vast some concern about the broader system that we are majority, but for some reason some individuals encounter putting in place. There also seems to be some concern delays beyond that period, the balance of time beyond about discretion. However, as I said, guidance will be the normal period of six months would be the argument developed on that. In the mean time, I hope that the for using discretion to allow it to count. normal cases that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, Perhaps I may return to my response to the referred to would be those that we can deal with quite amendments. The noble Lord has asked me several easily—if we are not talking about the exceptions—once questions and I should like a little time to think about we have a clear understanding of what delay we are them and return to them before the end of my remarks. talking about. We believe that such a delay would be As I said a moment ago, Amendment 37 would make beyond that normally associated with a swift the qualifying period a fixed one of five years. We shall determination of refugee status, which would be six also seek to resist this. Under the present grounds for months. refugee status or humanitarian protection, someone can qualify for citizenship after a minimum of six Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, in answering years. Our proposed provisions maintain this position that question from the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, is the and we do not consider that there are strong arguments Minister saying that the discretion in the Bill is unfettered for reducing the period for those on the protection but that guidance will be given that, while not legally route. binding, will somehow be taken into account? Is that As has been said, we want refugees to follow the the position? If the discretion is unfettered, that seems path to citizenship and fulfil the criteria of that path in inappropriate. If the Minister is saying that there will the same way as other migrants do. We have designed be guidance that will, in some way, limit and define the the path so that it encourages migrants to integrate discretion, that position is much more acceptable. I am with their local communities. I know that noble Lords not clear what he is saying on that. share my objective of improving the extent to which Lord Brett: My Lords, I was saying that guidance migrants integrate into our society. That must be will be developed; I thought that I was clear on that equally true of refugee migrants as it is for those who point, if nothing else. On the argument that exceptional arrive by other routes. Removing the requirement that cases do not make good examples and that the more refugees must meet the same criteria as other migrants normal application problem is that which the noble to qualify for citizenship would do nothing to assist Lord outlined—namely, that of undue delay—the answer their integration, so I must respectfully resist this is: yes, there will be discretion, and guidance will be amendment. developed to meet those problems and to assist in a Finally, Amendment 52 would ensure that persons speedy resolution. with a pending application for leave to remain, pursuant I return to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord to an asylum or human rights claim, are not treated as Hylton. Government Amendment 30 will ensure that being in the UK in breach of the immigration laws the earned citizenship clause in the Bill allows for where they go on to be granted leave to remain. The discretion to waive the requirement to have the qualifying requirement not to be in breach is relevant only to immigration status for the whole of the qualifying those whose qualifying period has started and, as I period. Having that discretion will give the flexibility said, in the case of those seeking protection the qualifying that we believe the system that we are creating needs. period will normally start only when they are granted In the case of refugees, we would expect to exercise leave on that basis. In those cases where we choose to that discretion where we have the undue delay factor, exercise the new discretion—for a delay, or whatever—to or others, so the guidance will be developed to give count periods before the date of leave being granted officials an understanding of what “undue delay” towards the qualifying period, we will also apply discretion means and how to apply the discretion. I do not think to waive the requirement not to be in breach, where that I can add anything else. that is a necessity. I hope that the noble Lords, Lord Hylton and Lord Lord Hylton: My Lords, with regard to Amendment 24, Avebury, and the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, will I am extremely grateful to at least five of your Lordships, accept that the amendments that we are putting forward in all parts of the House, who spoke in its support. If 721 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Corporation Tax Bill 722

[LORD HYLTON] minor, unintended anomalies. To ensure that any changes this debate does one thing and speeds up the rate at made are within the remit of the project, they are which the Government deal with the huge backlog of considered during an extensive, detailed and thorough asylum applications, that will be major progress. At consultation process involving the project’s consultative the moment, the backlog far exceeds the annual number committee, whose members are drawn from the main of new cases that the Government are so pleased to be tax professional and business representative bodies. dealing with within six months. I hope that we shall The work is overseen by an independent steering hear further explanation of the precise meaning of the committee, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Newton government amendments. While I shall need to study of Braintree, whom I am pleased to see in his place the Government’s reply and to take further advice, I and who will contribute to our proceedings a little beg leave to withdraw Amendment 24. later. It includes Members from both Houses, the judiciary, business and consumer groups and the Amendment 24 withdrawn. accountancy and legal professions. Lord Brett: My Lords, as it is 7.26 pm, and both the The extensive consultation process that I mentioned Front Benches have now been going for some time and involved publication for public comment of papers with some great effort, it might be appropriate if we containing almost all the clauses in the Bill, and the were to take the break now. Bill was also published in draft form for another round of consultation. In addition, groups of private Consideration on Report adjourned until not before sector specialists met the project to consider the detail 8.26 pm. of some of the more complex provisions so that the views of those who are the main users of the legislation were taken fully into account. Throughout the process, Corporation Tax Bill proposed minor changes in the law were specifically Second Reading drawn to the attention of consultees; no minor changes in the law were included in this Bill without the 7.27 pm considered approval of both the project’s committees. Moved By Lord Davies of Oldham The Joint Committee of both Houses heard oral evidence from members of the Tax Law Rewrite Project That the Bill be read a second time. team. It considered and accepted all the government amendments to the Bill, all of which it agreed were of Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, this Bill rewrites a minor, technical nature. The Joint Committee concluded certain basic provisions such as the charge to corporation that the Bill is a welcome clarification of the existing tax and provisions used by companies in computing law and, as a result, it will be easier to use and more their income. The main aim is to make the legislation accessible to Parliament, the judiciary, informed clearer, better structured and easier to use than the professionals, business people and other users of the source legislation, which is often dense and difficult to legislation. It was satisfied that the changes of the law follow. The Bill has been produced by Her Majesty’s in the Bill are of very minor significance. Revenue and Customs Tax Law Rewrite Project. It is the first of two Bills that will rewrite corporation tax. The success of the project in improving the accessibility The second will be introduced later this year, along of the legislation to users has been borne out by with another which will rewrite international and other independent market research, which showed that in provisions, some of which apply for the purposes of the main, users of rewritten legislation warmly welcomed both income tax and corporation tax. The work follows it. It was seen to be of particular help to those newly the success of the project’s previous Acts which rewrote entering the profession. Consultees have also been the capital allowances and income tax legislation. positive about the project’s work. I should explain that the Bill has been certified as a It would be wrong of me to conclude without money Bill. It was introduced into Parliament in another paying tribute to everyone who has taken part in this place at the beginning of last December. Under the important work. There are many consultees who have special procedures applying to tax law rewrite Bills, given their time and have used their considerable the substantive debate on Second Reading was held in expertise to consider the detail of the rewritten clauses. Committee. The Bill then passed to a Joint Committee As with all rewrite Bills, tax professionals who provide of the two Houses, where it was considered on 27 January. expert comment already understand the legislation The Joint Committee included among its members the and, therefore, have the least to gain from the rewritten noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, and my noble friend provisions. Their selfless contribution to the consultation Lady Goudie. I am grateful to them for their efforts in process for the benefit of the wider range of tax scrutinising the Bill, and to Sir Peter Viggers MP who professionals who use the legislation is therefore chaired the Committee. The Bill then passed back to particularly welcome. the House of Commons for its Third Reading and is We owe a particular debt to the noble Lord, Lord now before us for its remaining stages, which the rules Newton, for his service as chairman of the steering say can be taken in one day. committee and to the members of both the project’s It is beyond the remit of the project to make any committees for their expert input and guidance. This is significant changes in tax policy, so it takes great care an extremely worthwhile project with a track record to preserve the effects of the legislation. It can, however, that shows that it makes our direct tax legislation make very minor agreed changes; for example, to more modern, clearer and easier to use. The Bill remove ambiguity, repeal obsolete material or correct maintains the high standards achieved in the project’s 723 Corporation Tax Bill[25 MARCH 2009] Corporation Tax Bill 724 previous Acts and will make the legislation more no position, even partially, to restore our competitive accessible to Parliament, the tax professions, business position in terms of the rate of corporation tax. It is a and the judiciary. I commend it to the House. pity that, with this 821-page blockbuster Bill, they have also failed to do anything material to improve 7.33 pm our position in terms of structure, complexity, clarity Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, I am grateful to the or length of our corporation tax law. I look forward to Minister for introducing this debate, and apologise hearing the Minister’s reply. that I was not in my place for his initial remarks. Nevertheless, I am very privileged to be allowed to 7.38 pm speak in this debate. Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, I trust that It is interesting that, although at 821 pages this Bill my noble friend will forgive me if, as chairman of the is the longest ever to appear before the House, the list steering committee, I do not follow him too far down of speakers at this Second Reading and remaining the path. While I shall look forward to the Minister’s stages debate is one of the shortest. Indeed, until I no doubt carefully phrased reply to the remarks that somewhat rashly decided to add my name last night, have just been made, as a former Minister myself— no Back-Bench speaker at all had expressed an interest although not a Treasury Minister—I accept that there in participating in this debate. That is rather a pity, is a big difference between clarifying the existing law because the structure as well as the applicable rate of and simplification, which inevitably involves policy corporation tax are of great importance in ensuring decisions and political consequences in terms of gainers that our competitive position as a preferred location and losers that, frankly, no Government would wish to for foreign companies to set up businesses or establish put into commission to the sort of accelerated procedure their European headquarters is protected and enhanced. that applies to these Bills. Nevertheless, it is fair to Unfortunately, the competitive advantage that the United acknowledge also—and I am sure that the Minister Kingdom formerly enjoyed in terms of comparative will—that there is quite a demand among practitioners corporation tax rates has significantly eroded under for the sort of simplification for which my noble friend the present Government, which made it all the more has called, even though it is not the business of the important that the rewrite of corporation tax legislation committee that I chair or of the tax law rewrite project should have enhanced our competitive position in its to deliver it. structure and simplicity. This it has singularly failed I shall speak only briefly, not least because, although to do. chair of the steering committee, I was indisposed at It was originally envisaged that the Tax Law Rewrite the time of the Joint Committee meeting and unable Project introduced by the Conservative Government to attend it. I thank the Government, through the in 1996 would make legislation clearer and more user- Minister, for bringing forward the Bill. I also thank friendly by adopting consistent terminology, shorter my colleagues on both the steering committee and sentences and better use of definitions. However, the the consultative committee for their labours, to which areas of overlap between income tax and corporation the Minister rightly paid tribute, taking into account tax are relatively limited. The rewriting of the overlapping the volume of paper that they had to wade through. parts, in order to achieve consistency, was justified; The weight of the documents—even the weight of the but was it worth while rewriting the parts that do not Explanatory Memorandum—is such that I have not overlap if that rewrite failed to achieve clarity, simplicity strained myself by bringing them into the Chamber. I and, therefore, international competitiveness? Does also congratulate the band of dedicated officials led the Minister not agree that the Government have by Dr Steve Batterby, and the parliamentary draftsmen, missed a trick in failing to use this opportunity to whose diligence needs no demonstration beyond the make the UK corporation tax system simpler and size of the papers that we are discussing. Even the more internationally competitive? Explanatory Memorandum must be among the longest It is generally believed that UK tax law is uncompetitive ever seen. and overly complex. This hits smaller firms hardest, as I hope that the House will support what I believe— they are the least able to afford the enormous cost of notwithstanding the reservations expressed by my noble obtaining enough external advice. World Bank data friend Lord Trenchard—has been a very worthwhile show that countries with clearer tax laws collect 6 per and certainly substantial effort. cent to 10 per cent more tax revenues than those whose tax laws are complicated and difficult to understand. 7.40 pm Is the Minister confident that the expensive resources Lord Newby: My Lords, as the Minister said, this is that the Government committed to this rewrite project, the third product of the tax law rewrite project, and which has achieved so little, were justified? Did the the heaviest to date. I start by congratulating, and Government consider the alternatives, such as leaving possibly commiserating with, those officials who had the legislation alone and providing better guidance to labour so long on such a huge piece of work. I hope instead? Unless rewrites achieve benefits in brevity that they feel that their efforts have been adequately and simplicity, they place a great unwelcome burden rewarded, and that the accountancy profession will on the accounting profession, in that experts who thank them, sotto voce at least, for a formidable piece knew the tax law well have to start again and relearn of intellectual work. the law. Of course we support the project and the Bill. The The absolute rate of corporation tax is more important problem is that this exercise does not deal with the than the structure, but this Government’s extreme principal problem facing British tax law, which is that profligacy over a decade has ensured that they are in it is far too complicated, to such a point that even 725 Corporation Tax Bill[LORDS] Corporation Tax Bill 726

[LORD NEWBY] and builds on work of technical excellence. There when it is written in clear language, it is extremely has been little external complaint or comment on difficult for anyone except the most erudite practitioner the Bill. to have the faintest idea how it applies in many cases. As the Minister explained, these Bills do not set out As the Minister is aware, there is a growing sense that to change tax law, though inevitably there are minor we need to do something more fundamental than changes that are set out with complete clarity in the simply improve the drafting and clarity of this very documentation supporting the Bill. complicated system. It is now customary for these Bills to take a wide There are a number of proposals to do just that. power to rewrite the law, as a consequence of things Only today, the ACCA has produced a report entitled not going right, and this Bill is no exception. However, Is there a way out of the tax labyrinth? My first we are content with the power taken, and pleased that response was to say, “Given previous history, almost the Government have again committed to not using certainly not”. However, the report raises issues, and the power to alter legislation before consulting the tax makes a number of suggestions about how we might law rewrite committees. That is entirely satisfactory. simplify tax law, ensuring, importantly, that as we build on the body of the law, we do not unnecessarily I will place on record the appreciation of these complicate it. Benches for those who have striven mightily in the tax The proposal from the ACCA is only one of many. law rewrite project. The project was kicked off by my Some elements seem very sensible. Others, such as the right honourable friend Kenneth Clarke when he was suggestion that we should abolish the annual Finance Chancellor. He now chairs the Joint Committee of Bill, are ones that very few people in your Lordships’ both Houses on the tax law rewrite Bills. The steering House or another place would think show the way committee, now admirably chaired by my noble friend forward. However, the report is a useful contribution Lord Newton of Braintree, who I am delighted is in to the debate. Another significant contribution is the his place this evening, was originally chaired by my report undertaken by the noble and learned Lord, noble and learned friend, Lord Howe of Aberavon. Lord Howe of Aberavon, which made proposals for The Minister may note that Ministers with or without simplifying the law, and looked at how we might make Treasury experience who find themselves on these sure that, as we bring forward new law, we avoid some Benches may well have a home waiting for them in the of the mistakes of the past. tax law rewrite process. There is quite a ferment in this narrow area among The real work is of course done by HMRC’s tax people who are worried about the law and are thinking law rewrite project, overseen by the steering group and hard about how to improve the system. Of course, assisted by a consultative committee made up of there is one area where ferment appears not to have practitioners. The quality and quantity of work involved had any impact, and that is in the Government. They is amazing, and we admire hugely the work that has have shown absolutely no interest in simplifying the gone in to producing this very complex Bill. law. When the current Prime Minister was Chancellor, The Bill, for all its virtues, does not assist in the he had a schoolboyishly macho desire to ensure that reduction of the tax code. Last year we passed India in every Finance Bill was longer than its predecessor. If having the longest tax code, and the net effect of the that was his aim, he was extremely successful, because Bill, even after the repeal of a large amount of existing with every passing year, the Finance Bill got longer, to legislation, will not help us to lose that dubious accolade. such an extent that he is personally responsible for The Minister in another place said that the Bill adding several thousand pages to the body of tax would reduce costs for taxpayers by £25 million a year. legislation. That, as a principle and a process, is madness. I have no idea on what that figure is based, but I do Much of the law is virtually incomprehensible. It is not believe it. I do not think that the rewrite project not accessible to those who are unable to pay expensive needs flimsy calculations of cost savings to justify it. accountants to unravel it for them. I would welcome Its main virtue lies in showing how tax legislation can any hope that the Minister can give us that the be drafted in simpler and more accessible language, Government might at least take seriously some of the and it sets a standard for all kinds of future legislation. ideas about procedures and simplification processes, The Minister referred to the fact that it has been and possibly even come forward with proposals of welcomed by practitioners, and I am sure that it is their own. helpful. Equally, however, I am not sure that it answers enough of the questions about our tax law-making 7.45 pm process. Simplification simply does not go far enough. Baroness Noakes: My Lords, it is a pleasure to take As the noble Lord, Lord Newby, has already mentioned, part in yet another milestone in the work of the tax my noble and learned friend Lord Howe of Aberavon law rewrite project. The Bill before us, as my noble produced a report last year on making taxes simpler. friend Lord Trenchard said, is the longest ever considered If my party gets an opportunity, we intend to implement in Parliament. I thought I could claim that record with his proposals for an office of tax simplification, which the Company Law Bill a couple of years ago, but that would really pursue the issues that have been spoken has now been surpassed. It is perhaps disappointing about this evening. that on such an historic occasion there are so few My noble and learned friend’s proposals also included noble Lords here to record the event. Finance Bill clauses being published at the time of the We support the Bill, as we have supported previous PBR, so that there was a long time for proper scrutiny. tax law rewrite Bills. The process that has led to this He also recommended, rightly, that the skills of your Bill seems exemplary. It features true cross-party working Lordships’ House in scrutiny, which are sadly not 727 Corporation Tax Bill[25 MARCH 2009] Corporation Tax Bill 728 currently allowed to be used in the Finance Bill, would so far away that I can scarcely envisage it. Therefore, I be brought into that process. The convention that has will stick to the more prosaic matters of presenting the kept our House away from detailed involvement with government policy from the Dispatch Box. tax legislation has been to the detriment of the public and keeping us away from the detailed drafting of the I had presumed that there would be one or two Finance Bill is not necessary for the preservation of obvious criticisms of the process we have gone through Commons privilege—we have no intention whatever with the Bill. Not a Bill comes before Parliament of challenging that. without being subject to critical scrutiny, but I had not quite expected the principled ferocity of the trenchant The involvement of my noble and learned friend attack of the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. I can Lord Howe of Aberavon with the movement for simpler only say to him that I accept that there is always an taxes goes back a long way. Researching for this evening’s argument for greater simplification, a point amplified debate, I found reference to a pamphlet published by by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, who has done so the Bow Group in 1969 written by my noble and on numerous occasions. However, I cited institutions learned friend together with my noble friend Lord Lamont that have played their part in the consultations on this over 40 years ago. Many of their themes in that measure, and the actual process of and clarification pamphlet about the need for radical simplification involved in the rewrite won widespread support and were echoed in the report of the Tax Reform Commission has been commended for its success. The noble which my noble friend Lord Forsyth produced two Viscount must give us some credit for the fact that years ago. those who must use this legislation benefit from the The need for tax simplification has got much greater rewrite, which helps, if not to bring about the level of over the past 10 years because we have had a decade of simplification that he would wish, nevertheless to bring hugely complex tax legislation. As the noble Lord, real benefits. Lord Newby, said, the Government have been complacent about the way in which they have over-complicated the A full impact assessment was published on the tax system and been complacent about its effects. benefits and costs of the project’s work. The noble Businesses need many things from the tax system that Lord will recognise just how difficult it is to produce they have not been given in the past decade. They need quantitative evaluations of effectiveness, but users have long-term stability, certainty and simplicity. The endless been positive about all previous rewrite Acts. We have tinkering, about-turns and short-termism that has driven had positive responses to this legislation indicating the development of tax policy over the past 10 years that the benefits outweigh the costs, which are about has, frankly, driven businesses crazy. £6 million. We estimate that the monetary benefits of The CBI recently published a tax task force report, tax-law rewrites for this Bill, although difficult to setting out how uncompetitive our tax system has quantify, are about £25 million. I am of course open become. The Government like to quote a 2007 study to challenge on those statistics, but the noble Lord will that said that the UK topped the G7 league for ease of give the Government credit for seeking to evaluate paying tax—if there is such a thing—and for the time benefits and costs, which come down on the plus side. taken in compliance. However, as the CBI reminded On simplification, the last Finance Bill was concerned us, as long as the Government are satisfied with with clarification; a fair number of the clauses set out benchmarking the UK against the G7, we will fail to to do precisely that. Of course, clarification and making be truly competitive in a global sense. something simpler often involve, as the noble Lord, The highly respected annual global competitiveness Lord Newton, indicated, a policy choice. The moment report issued by the World Economic Forum shows one has a policy choice, one is into a different form of that we have been slipping down the overall legislation—the consideration of the Finance Bill and competitiveness league tables. We used to be near the the length of time that the other place has to devote to top and now we are not even in the top 10. On tax, we that—whereas this Bill can only come before the House are in the bottom half of the 134 countries surveyed as it has, and could only proceed through Parliament for the extent and effect of tax. Two of the biggest as it has, including through the other House. Essentially, issues which cause problems for those doing business there is no intent to change the law with it, merely to in our country are the tax regime and tax rates. Put simplify it and make it more user-friendly. simply, we need to reverse that trend and simplification is one route. I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Newton, said. I am sure that there will be no simplification from The noble Baroness backed him to a degree by saying, this Government and I regret that. However, perhaps “Well, what is this comparison with these other countries? it will not be too long before another Government will We will never get improvements in our taxation when have an opportunity to make real change to our tax we compare ourselves with the G7”. Compare ourselves code. In the mean time, we welcome the Bill. with the G7? In terms of the ease of paying taxes and responses to the taxation system, we are at the top of the league. I know that the noble Baroness does not need reminding, but if she disparages the G7, I remind 7.54 pm her that that league places Britain as better than Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to Canada, better than Germany, better than the United all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I shall States, better than France, better than Japan and resist the invitation of the noble Baroness to brush up better than Italy. If the noble Baroness says, “Well, of my rewrite skills on the basis that I might be able to course, that merely shows that we are uncompetitive”, perform that function in due course. “In due course” is then we are in a strange global economy. 729 Corporation Tax Bill[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 730

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] 8.05 pm If the noble Baroness is indicating that some of the new tigers of the financial world have a different Sitting suspended. position on taxation, that is a debate for another occasion. The Government can establish that in this Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill area, against the criteria we are discussing, we bear [HL] favourable comparison with the great economies of the world. Therefore, I do not accept being chided by Report (1st Day) (Continued) the noble Baroness on that point. However, I accept the points she made on the necessity of striving continually 8.26 pm to make taxation simpler and easier to understand. Of course, we all recognise that the Bill has a minor role Amendment 25 in that respect, but one which was created in 1996—I Moved by pay tribute to her party for that—before the present Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Administration entered office. As she rightly said, the 25: Clause 39, page 29, line 19, leave out “probationary chairs of the committee are members of her party, and citizenship leave” and insert “limited leave to enter or remain” I pay due regard to that. We are building on those proposals and the Bill is the outcome. Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, we have tabled this amendment so that we have another As the noble Lord, Lord Newton, indicated in his opportunity to discuss probationary citizenship leave. brief contribution, the Bill is a product of very substantial The discussion in Committee was quite frustrating, expert work. The very act of simplifying and seeking because we spent a lot of time on the name “probationary to make the legislation more intelligible without raising citizenship” rather than on the principle of what it policy issues is itself a very deft art and we should pay adds to the citizenship journey. It was clear from the due regard to the skill with which the objectives have government amendments and the debate in Committee been fulfilled by those involved in the rewrite exercise, that the Government’s drafting and thinking on the and to the techniques which they have been obliged to amendments are not as advanced as they ought to be. use. Given that the Government propose to introduce a We could not debate finance without an element of draft Bill in October, there is the opportunity to return controversy entering the discussion, nor could I ever to these provisions when thinking is a bit more advanced stand at this Dispatch Box opposite the noble Baroness and the proposals are sufficiently developed for us to without knowing that she will make one or two pertinent scrutinise them. points to which I have to respond. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, was more generous. I understand exactly As drafted, probationary citizenship is no more what he says—if we can translate legislation so that we than another name for temporary or limited leave, are able to increase the understanding of ordinary which is why our amendment seeks to actually call it citizens and the owners of small businesses to enable what it is. As named now, it contributes to the complexity them to look after their affairs a great deal better, we of the Government’s naturalisation proposals. It gives shall make progress. However, business life is complex. the impression, by renaming it, that something new We have a complex economy with complex demands and different is being proposed, when it is actually the and when the public articulate a demand for a change same process by another name. While we are on the in taxation and politicians seek to respond to that, it matter of the name, it is worth noting that the consultation often results in a variation of existing measures. It threw up the fact that the very word “probationary” results in qualification and often in extra complexity has negative overtones and makes people tend to think because in a very real sense people’s lives are becoming of someone who has done something wrong and is on more specialised, as are processes and economic probation. I am sure that is not the Government’s operations, and taxation is bound to follow. Oh for the intention—I am sure that they have heard this view days of William Pitt and the 2p rate of income tax. before—but it would be good, if they intend to change There are pretty good reasons why we cannot go back the terminology, if they could think of something 200 years although the noble Lord, Lord Newton, more positive. would have found his task a good deal easier if the The main reason to question this again is that the brief had permitted a return to those halcyon days. debates we had before dinner have shown very clearly I emphasise that we have support for this rewrite that we are talking about the same process but simply measure. The Institute of Chartered Accountants in renaming it. I would be grateful if the Minister could England and Wales supports the way in which the elucidate what the Government’s thinking is on what measure has been drawn up. It has reservations about this actually adds to the object that we are all trying to particular points but not sufficient to have occasioned achieve, which is to have a much better assimilation great anxiety in the other place or here this evening. programme. We do not feel that simply renaming it in The Bill is a product of considerable work. I pay this way is the strongest way of achieving it. I beg to tribute to the work of all those who contributed to the move. measure. I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Newton, for the work that he does with regard to the Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I support the committee. amendment, because we need some clarity on what just changing names does. I am not at all clear either Bill read a second time. Committee negatived. Standing why we could not stay with the names that people Order 47 having been dispensed with, the Bill was read a understand and know. The only people who are not third time and passed. going to get confused are those who are coming into 731 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 732 the system right at the beginning. Sometimes it is for probationary citizenship, our aim is to give them a better just to leave things as they were. The noble distinct form of leave with a distinct name so that their Baroness has put it very well. We are trying to do minds will be focused on the fact that they now have to something that makes things better, not just tinker choose whether and when they wish to apply for around with the words. citizenship. If they wish to qualify for citizenship, they can do so in a minimum of one year if they do Lord Brett: My Lords, I appreciate the contributions active citizenship. We think that by introducing by both noble Baronesses. I recall in Committee being probationary citizenship, we will encourage migrants upbraided by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for getting to make a conscious choice about their long-term into the argument about the name, when he made the future in the UK. point, which has been made again tonight, that it is a At the same time, giving this group a distinct type question of substance and what it actually means and of leave helps to demonstrate to the UK public that does. I will try to deal with those principal points of these people are making a significant commitment concern in turn. and have advanced on the path to citizenship, thus First, it is argued that “probationary citizenship” is promoting community cohesion. We want to encourage merely further limited leave and as such it should all migrants who qualify to stay in the UK permanently simply be called that, and doing otherwise merely to take up full British citizenship. We think that this is serves to complicate the system. That was, succinctly, the best way to facilitate the full integration of a the position of the noble Baroness. I agree that migrant into UK society. Under the old system, in probationary citizenship is, legally, a grant of further which migrants passed from limited leave to remain to limited leave to remain. We have made no secret of indefinite leave to remain before being eligible for this. The question is on the second point, where the citizenship, there was little incentive to apply for citizenship noble Baroness, Lady Miller, said that it is the same as the terms of ILR are similar to those of British system by another name. We do not believe that it is. I citizenship. However, by introducing probationary strongly disagree with the point that it adds nothing to citizenship we are rectifying this. There are significant the system other than to complicate it. We would benefits to the migrants of being a citizen compared argue that it supports our aim to make the path to with having probationary citizenship and they can citizenship clearer for migrants and the public. Our qualify for citizenship more quickly than they can proposals set out a much clearer architecture than permanent residence. As such, by introducing exists at present, by simplifying the multiplicity of probationary citizenship, we are creating strong incentives routes to citizenship and replacing them with three for migrants who qualify to stay here permanently to clear routes—the work route, the family route and the take up full British citizenship and thus integrate more protection route—and three clear stages: temporary effectively into UK society. I am sure that the whole residence, probationary citizenship and British citizenship House supports efforts to improve integration. or permanent residence. Noble Lords will appreciate that what I have stated There have been suggestions that another stage is leads us to the conclusion that the stage should be being put in, but that is not so. At present, all migrants called “probationary citizenship”. Indeed, as I stated must pass through two stages—limited leave, then in Committee, I am more than happy to consider indefinite leave to remain—to qualify for citizenship. other names if someone can suggest a preferable Under the new system, they must still pass through alternative. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady two stages to get to citizenship; namely, temporary Miller, that a positive term would be welcome. My residence and probationary citizenship. judgment of “probation” is not the same as that held A second accusation is that probationary citizenship by people with a background in law and order. However, serves no purpose and offers no benefit to the migrant. at present, I do not think that the phrase “limited leave That is not correct. The new stage of probationary to remain” improves the proposals, as we would lose citizenship marks out that migrants who qualify for it the advantages that I have outlined which “probationary have already started to make a significant step on the citizenship” would attract. For the same reason, I do road to citizenship; probationary citizens are eligible not think that the suggestion made by the noble to naturalise if they meet the requirements. All migrants, Baroness, Lady Hanham, in Committee of “interim whether they intend to stay here for one day or for leave to remain” is an improvement. We want to make ever, start off as temporary residents, subject to certain it clear that the migrant has advanced on the path to exceptions, such as gateway refugees who get permanent citizenship and neither suggestion does that. The noble residence on arrival. There are no distinctions between Baroness, Lady Falkner, suggested the term “qualifying migrants in terms of the leave that they have; they are citizenship” as an alternative. While that has its merits, all temporary residents. But it is not possible for our concern is that it does not quite capture the migrants in this first stage to progress directly to essence of the stage, in that, at that point, the migrant citizenship/permanent residence. Only those who make is on probation and, if they so wish, can prove that that significant step to probationary citizenship are in they have earned the right to citizenship. the privileged position of being able to naturalise. Therefore, I continue to consider that “probationary That hugely significant benefit to the migrant should citizenship” is the right term for this stage. As I have be acknowledged; it gives them a distinct status and it said, we do not suggest that that is the best phrase. If is our way of acknowledging that step. more positive and more effective names are put forward, I also reject the suggestion that probationary citizenship we could be persuaded, at a later stage in the Bill, to does not encourage integration. Once a migrant takes make a substitution. In the mean time, I ask the noble that significant step towards citizenship by qualifying Baroness to withdraw the amendment. 733 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 734

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I be interpreted rigidly; that is why we have the discretion thank the Minister for a positive run-through of how to waive this requirement where appropriate. The the Government see the situation. He left the door Government recognise that it is in no one’s interest to open at later stages, so I am sure that the other place refuse people who for the vast majority of the time will want to come back to this issue. In the mean time, have been contributing to the UK if they are subject to I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. a relatively brief period of unemployment. Amendment 25 withdrawn. I wrote to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, setting out details of what “continuous employment” means. I hope that he and the other noble Lords have had Amendment 26 chance to read that correspondence. I will summarise Moved by Lord Avebury the position. This requirement is wholly consistent 26: Clause 39, page 29, line 25, leave out “been in continuous and underlines the Government’s clear policy that employment” and insert “not been in breach of conditions of that migrants who enter via the work route—for example, leave” tiers 1 or 2 of the points-based system—are here to work or to be economically active. This is what the Lord Avebury: My Lords, in Committee we tried, points-based system makes clear. with only partial success, to clarify what the Bill means by “in continuous employment”. This is another To respond to the points raised in Committee, I was attempt to get some clarification about how that term grateful to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady will be interpreted. We extracted from the noble Lord, Butler-Sloss, for raising the point that “continuous” is Lord Brett, an acknowledgement that in the present not same as “continual” and to the noble Baroness, economic circumstances migrants would often cease Lady Miller, for reading us part of the UNISON to be in employment, but he then added “for short briefing which asserted that “continuous employment” periods”. With 2 million people out of work, and that is a specific legal term that means that in the majority number rising, it is getting increasingly difficult for of cases an employee must be working for the same somebody who is thrown out of a job through redundancy employer in order to qualify. The question was asked or through the employer going bankrupt to find a new whether continuous employment means continuous job, however widely he casts the net. The compelling employment with one employer. I confirm that it does circumstances may not be of that short a duration and not. We are absolutely clear that a person can meet the victims of the recession are entitled to know how this continuous employment requirement in the earned discretion will be exercised. citizenship clauses where they change job, or types of job, or self-employment during the qualifying period. Like so many things in the Bill—we have discussed That will not be a disqualification. this before—everything will be left to guidance so that noble Lords and another place will have no say in Within our guidance, which we are continuing to what the final solution is to be. The noble Lord, Lord develop taking into account the helpful points raised Brett, said that he took the point about domestic by noble Lords in Committee, we will explain that a servants who leave an abusive employer and may not person need not have had the same employer throughout be able to get a reference, and he promised to let us the qualifying period or have remained in the same have greater detail on how that problem will be tackled. business where he is self-employed. We will ensure that Although the problem was raised in the context of any definition of continuous employment takes into domestic service, there may well be other circumstances account the position of certain groups, such as where a reference is unobtainable. A case where the entrepreneurs who may be company directors and employer goes bankrupt is perhaps the most obvious. therefore not technically employed. We also discussed what happens when the worker loses his job a few weeks before he comes to the end of I was asked for further detail on how we exercise probationary citizenship and the latitude that would discretion to waive the requirements for individuals to exist when interpreting “continuous employment” in have been in continuous employment. I reiterate that an elastic way that would allow that final period out of we expect that any discretion will be exercised sparingly work to be overlooked. I presume there is to be guidance and in deserving cases. However, as I said, the Government on all these questions, but we have to take it on trust recognise that it is in no one’s interest to refuse people that what comes out in the end, weeks after the Bill who, for the vast majority of their time here have been receives Royal Assent, would have been agreed by contributing economically to the UK. In assessing Parliament if we had been able to look at it. That is whether to apply discretion, we would take into account not a satisfactory way to legislate and makes a mockery a number of factors, including the person’s overall of the idea that Parliament exercises control over the employment record while in the UK; the length of Executive. time for which they have been out of work; and the explanation or evidence offered by the individual. I Lord Brett: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord think that that deals with several points raised by the Avebury, pointed out, this amendment replicates the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, about redundancy and amendment we discussed in Committee. Various bankruptcy, which is not necessarily anything that the comments were made and concerns expressed at that individual migrant worker has any control over. stage. I hope that I can answer them in this reply. A key point raised in Committee was how overseas I am sympathetic to the spirit behind the amendment. domestic workers could be affected by the continuous I agree that the requirement that a migrant on the employment requirements. As we confirmed, continuous work route must be continuously employed should not employment does not need to be with one employer. 735 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 736

We committed in our response to the Visitors suffered abuse, that should be conclusive, so the noble Consultation to preserve the current arrangements, Lord should be able to say not that the discretion which can be summarised as follows. might be exercised there, but that it would be. It is a Overseas domestic workers in private households question of precision. will remain a separate category outside the points-based I was in the middle of saying that no one who loses system, while private servants in diplomatic households their job would be certain whether the Minister would are included in the international agreement sub-category even consider waiving, let alone decide to waive, the of tier 5. So we have two groups: those in domestic requirement. As I said initially, given the economic diplomatic households, who are covered by an circumstances at present, it is increasingly difficult for international agreement on tier 5; and a separate anyone who is thrown out of work to find another category for domestic workers. We are committed to employer, particularly in the same category. A person preserving that existing separate route for overseas who comes in under a particular tier may be allowed domestic workers and the protection that it affords; to change employer, but will he have to seek employment and we will review it as appropriate after two years of within that category? If, for example, he comes in as a operation of the new immigration system. We will also tier 1 professional and cannot find a job in his sphere, want to allow the anti-trafficking strategy to be properly would he be allowed to take a much more humble job road-tested. just to be certain that he does not come within the All overseas domestic workers currently have an exclusions of the clause? avenue to settlement in the UK after five years’continuous Fundamentally, under the rules for the points-based employment. Overseas domestic workers in private system, a person is required to be and to continue to households will, under requirements for obtaining be in work, so I question the necessity of having such a probationary citizenship in this category, still be able discretion in the Bill. Would the noble Lord agree that to leave their employer and seek alternative work with under the points-based system adequate safeguards another employer. That continues to enable domestic already exist to make sure that a person remains in workers from overseas to remove themselves from work, so we should not try to gloss it in the Bill? abusive situations. Clause 39(7) gives discretion to waive the requirement Lord Brett: My Lords, I am slightly surprised by to have been in continuous employment. We will those last comments because I thought that the concerns carefully consider the exercise of that discretion, of noble Lords in Committee was that when considering particularly in cases where overseas domestic workers continuous employment we should not be so rigid as have left their employment due to abuse. to reject someone whose unemployment came from a situation beyond their control for a relatively short I hope that the assurances that I have given noble period. The noble Lord raised the question of how the Lords will allow the withdrawal of the amendment. condition interacts with the employment requirements Lord Avebury: My Lords, the final remark made by under the points-based system. I recognise that migrants the noble Lord, Lord Brett, that the Government will on work routes will have further conditions attached carefully consider whether to waive the requirements to their leave, such as not having recourse to public in a case where the domestic worker left employment funds. Migrants granted leave under tier 2 may have because of abuse by the employer, was not adequate. that leave curtailed if they are out of employment for Surely those are precisely the circumstances in which more than 60 days. I do not think that that makes the the Minister should have been able to assure us that continuous employment requirement unnecessary. It the discretion would be exercised. I cannot imagine is wholly consistent with, and underlines, the Government’s why, if it is proved that a domestic worker was beaten clear policy that migrants are here to work and to be up by the employer and that was the only reason they economically active. By having a discretion, we can left, there should be any valid excuse for not using the apply a human face, which we are often accused of not discretion. I still feel anxious about the way in which applying when coming up against rules and hard the discretion is to be exercised, because there is no cases. I had hoped that what I was saying about indication of how long a person can be without continuous employment not being with the same employer employment before the discretion ceases to be operative. would be more encouraging to the noble Lord than it has been. Lord Brett: My Lords, I want to offer at least my personal reassurance that when I used the term “consider Lord Avebury: My Lords, I am a little encouraged. carefully”, my interpretation of that term is that one’s The noble Lord said that a person in tier 2 can be out attention would be drawn to the fact that there had of work for up to 60 days under the employment rules. been accusations of domestic abuse. Even if there was Is he now saying that when Ministers come to exercise no guarantee that that could be proven, it would be a their discretion under the Bill, they will always excuse circumstance in which I would expect a very keen eye someone who has been out of work for as much as to be cast with a view to taking that discretion to a 60 days, and that the discretion only comes into play if point where it relieved the abused migrant from a you exceed the limits in the existing tier requirements? situation where they continued to be deprived because Can he also deal with my other question that if a of their having left the household. person is in, say tier 2—it does not matter which tier—and he cannot get a job in the category under Lord Avebury: My Lords, that is a bit stronger than which he came in, would he be permitted to accept less what the noble Lord said before, and I take some professional or less advanced work without forfeiting reassurance from that. Particularly in a case where the his right to apply for citizenship at the end of the domestic worker is proved in a court of law to have period? 737 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 738

Lord Brett: My Lords, I have some difficulty in a I have heard nothing more from the Minister. My plan sense. I was trying to signal that in the current employment was to seek in Committee to amend the Bill to cover situation, which the noble Lord used as background at various points on passports that I raised at Second the start of his contribution, there would be hope that Reading, such as the need for the Registrar-General the discretion which we believe is necessary would be on the recording of a death to tell the Identity and exercised sympathetically for the people who had lost Passport Service so that the passport can be cancelled; their jobs through no fault of their own. That is the the need for sensible fees for people who lose their intention. For those who have contributed economically, passports, have them stolen or sell them; and the need which can be demonstrated over a number of years to deal with the complicated problem of some members prior to their losing their positions, it is not our of Her Majesty’s forces holding dual nationality.However, intention to deny them the chance of continuing their I was advised that passports are issued under the royal valuable contribution to society. prerogative and that this limits the power of Parliament On the noble Lord’s other point, to be absolutely to legislate on their administration. I hope that the clear, I shall write to him. Minister will comment on that suggestion. In my view, this is precisely the sort of thing that Parliament should be able to legislate on. Lord Avebury: My Lords, we have probably gone as Whatever consultations the Home Office may have far as we can on this issue this evening. I am grateful had since I raised these points six weeks ago at Second to the noble Lord for saying that the discretion would Reading—I suspect there may have been none—I have be exercised sympathetically. My problem is that people’s consulted widely with colleagues of all parties. This interpretation of “sympathetically”can vary enormously. amendment avoids the problem of the royal prerogative The noble Lord is nodding as I say that. I think that limitations and, I submit, would on its own, even with we have gone as far as we can for the time being and I its limited obligations and sanctions, strengthen our beg leave to withdraw the amendment. border defences. Amendment 26 withdrawn. The danger of would-be terrorists and other criminals, such as money launderers, travelling in and out of the United Kingdom on one passport and then using a Amendment 27 second passport for other nefarious journeys has been Moved by Lord Marlesford well demonstrated. It is therefore crucial that details of 27: Clause 39, page 29, line 29, at end insert— any passports held are on the database of the Identity “(g) that A must declare whether he or she holds a passport and Passport Service. of another nationality and, if so, what nationality this is; I have been told by persons in the intelligence and community that our security services are much concerned (h) that, following the acquisition of British citizenship, A about certain gaps in our control over dual passports must declare if he or she subsequently obtains a passport and their use. The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, who of another nationality. has much expertise in these matters, explained to me (2A) Failure to comply with sub-paragraph (2)(h) will result in this morning that she had to be at a conference on the cancellation and withdrawal of the United Kingdom passport.” terrorism this evening but that she strongly supports my amendment. We are constantly told of the risks of terrorism from Pakistan, in particular, and my amendment Lord Marlesford: My Lords, earlier we were discussing could help to guard against that. the tidal flow of information that the Home Office was arranging to collect in order to allegedly protect our citizens. In this amendment, we are discussing the 9pm shortage of information that is essential, in my view, I have been looking through the Government’s to enable the Government to protect the realm. It strategy for countering international terrorism—Pursue seems extraordinary that this amendment should be Prevent Protect Prepare—which was published yesterday. necessary at all. I have talked to a number of colleagues The section on UK border security on page 108 is on all sides of the House about it. To paraphrase their amazingly woolly. There is no reference to the Identity view, they said that it is common sense that the UK and Passport Service, although there is much about passport authorities should have full details of any the famous £1.2 billion e-Borders system, which will other passport held by an applicant for UK citizenship not come into full force for years. There is nothing to and that any UK passport holder should be required suggest that information on dual nationality, which is to inform the UK passport authorities if they subsequently so clearly needed, will be collected. acquire the passport of another country. An obvious Sadly, but I suppose predictably, this massive 174-page sanction to ensure compliance, as included in my Home Office document is far more about presentation amendment, is the risk to a dual passport holder of and aspiration than substance. It contains lots of having their UK passport cancelled and withdrawn if lovely photographs. There is a photograph of the they have concealed the possession of the passport of Prime Minister, which was clearly taken on the day he another country. was told he had been made Chancellor; it shows none I raised a number of points on the inadequacy of of the woes and cares that he has on his face today. the administration of the passport system at Second There is another photograph of the Home Secretary. Reading and the noble Lord, Lord West, replied: There are a lot of other interesting photographs that “I am listening. There are some difficult areas there. I think might be of some interest to my grandchildren; I do that overall the UK Passport Agency does well, but some issues not know quite why they are in the report. There is a need to be looked at closely”.—[Official Report, 11/2/09; col. 1208.] double-page spread of a police car speeding through 739 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 740 the roads of London, another double-page spread on was quite an historic occasion—and the other I used St Paul’s Cathedral and the London Eye, and another for neighbouring Arab countries where an Israeli stamp double-page spread of just a crowd, with no explanation. on the passport could have meant refusal of admission. There is another double-page spread, which may have There may be legitimate reasons why people have some relevance, of people queuing up at the UK more than one passport. Since the UK does not object Border Agency. I am not very surprised, but nor am I to dual nationality, there is no reason why a person very impressed so far with that document. who acquires British citizenship should not retain I refer to the rather sad Written Answer that I both the citizenship and the passport of his previous received from the noble Lord, Lord West, on 9 February, nationality. which stated: The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, is seeking an “Although applicants for British passports are asked for details additional requirement that a person would have to of any other passports held at the time of application, any system satisfy in order to be naturalised as a British citizen. of recording passports obtained or renewed during the validity He would have to declare whether he holds a passport would be costly and difficult to enforce where a person with dual of another nationality and, if so, which one; and, if, nationality chose not to notify the acquisition of a passport in their other nationality”.—[Official Report, 9/2/08; col. WA 167.] once he has been granted British nationality, he subsequently obtains the passport of another state, he That demonstrates why this amendment is needed. It should declare that as well. This sounds very reasonable. would be nice to feel that the Home Office could add to its much needed objective of becoming fit for In other countries, there are records of departures purpose by replacing its costly and difficult philosophy as well as arrivals. We know that the intention is to with a “can do, will do” philosophy. I hope that one extend our own records to include departures as well day a strong Minister will be able to impose such as arrivals. It would be convenient to be able to match changes. Meanwhile, I seek to help the Government by the records where a person used different passports for moving this amendment. I beg to move. arrival and departure. There may be another reason for wanting to compare the records of particular Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I support my noble individuals. For example, if a person is a criminal friend Lord Marlesford, who has produced a serious suspect it may become important to trace his movements argument in favour of the Government looking at in or out of the country. That would make it not only what should be done about dual passports. I suspect desirable but perhaps essential to know which passports that exceptions would have to be made for security he was using. reasons and other directions, but the principle behind As far as I am aware, the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, what my noble friend is talking about must be correct. is the originator of the proposal in this amendment People who say that they believe that they belong to and it has yet to be canvassed or discussed outside this country should not waft off under another country’s Parliament. Although one can see that it would facilitate passport without us having any idea which country the detection of cross-boundary criminal or terrorist they are represented by. I hope that the Minister will activity, I respectfully suggest to the noble Lord that be able to respond somewhat positively to my noble he finds a way of consulting more widely or of pressing friend. the Government to do so, rather than asking for the clause to be prematurely inserted in this Bill. I do not Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, I agree. I disagree at all with him with regard to the sense in support my noble kinsman on this point, because as which he has raised this but, before we finally agree to usual he is very knowledgeable and has thought about it, there should be wider consultation, for example this problem thoroughly. Not knowing who has a dual with civil liberties organisations, to check that we are passport in this country and having no sanction against not doing something that we would regret later on. I people who do not admit to having one are very real hope that the Government will adopt this proposal, problems. I hope that the Minister will realise that just have their own consultation and come back to the occasionally an individual in this House or somewhere House with definite proposals based on them. else has a good idea. The Government think that individuals cannot possibly have good ideas and that Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I am a little concerned only their advisors, huge organisations or—occasionally about this amendment; care should be taken because, Oppositions have good ideas. However, this is an like the noble Lord, in my business life, I, too, had two extremely good idea and it comes from someone with British passports: one to enter South Africa and one an original mind, and I will be very disappointed if the to enter Kenya and other parts of Africa: with the Government do not at least look at this; it could be same passport you could not do both. I have always explored when the Bill goes to the House of Commons. been entitled to an Irish passport, which is often very I hope that we will not have a dismissive speech of a much more useful to entering the United States, for much needed good idea. example, where I am likely to be arrested if I enter on a British passport. There are all sorts of reasons why Lord Avebury: My Lords, I agree that it is a very business people, politicians and the like might need interesting idea. It comes from a noble Lord who is more than one passport—in my case, three. I would full of interesting ideas, as I know from being a fellow hate to feel that the Irish passport details were on a member of a Select Committee where he often makes database alongside my British passport or that, if I significant contributions. had a second British passport, it was also on a database For many years I had a second passport: I used one so that the world’s terrorist organisations or anyone to enter Israel—for instance, when I was there in 1976 else could suss exactly where I was and what I was to hear President Sadat addressing the Knesset, which doing. 741 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 742

Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, three years one he wishes to use to prove his identity. As a number ago we introduced personal passport interviews for of noble Lords have said, this proposal perhaps requires folk applying for a passport for the first time. About a little more investigation, construction and consultation 300,000 applicants have had to have a personal interview before the Government would be prepared to consider before being issued with a British passport. I have it. We are not relying on the royal prerogative in heard that, after 246,000 interviews, not one applicant defence of our position; I will write to the noble Lord, had been refused. Did the Government not introduce Lord Marlesford, on that. I also take the point made personal passport interviews in order to prevent this by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, on the effectiveness from happening? Has any evaluation been made of of passport interviews, which were introduced in 2007 the effectiveness of the personal passport interview? If at regional offices throughout the UK. I do not have so, could that information be published in order to let the statistics that he seeks, but I will ensure that he gets us know whether the interviews have been any help in them. In the mean time, I ask the noble Lord to eliminating dual passports, terrorism, fraud and whatever withdraw the amendment, which at this stage is being else they were set up to do? resisted as unnecessary and unenforceable.

Lord Hylton: My Lords, I do not think that, when 9.15 pm discussing this amendment, we should be too concerned Viscount Slim: My Lords, I support the noble Lord, about people who have legitimate reasons for holding Lord Hylton. Surely we are looking at the making of more than one passport. The noble Lord, Lord citizenship. It is pertinent to ask if those seeking to Marlesford, has drawn this amendment very narrowly, stay here have an alternative passport. We all know so that it would apply only to people seeking full that there are good reasons for having a couple of British citizenship. passports, as has been ably demonstrated. I hope the noble Lord will, as he has said, look at this. I will Lord Brett: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble certainly not accuse him of wriggling. I liked his Lords who have taken part in this interesting mini-debate. answer, which was measured and very good, but in a I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, matter of citizenship we had better find out how many whose expertise and endeavour on this question of passports an immigrant has. dual passports I have experienced and dealt with previously. I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, Lord Brett: My Lords, the practical difficulties extend that good ideas in this House do survive and prosper. a little beyond my original answer. The amendment On a number of occasions during my 10 years here, calls, of course, for the power to cancel a passport if a legislation has been improved by individual Cross-Bench person fails to tell us that he has another passport. It is Members and individual Members of all parties putting not clear how we could establish that a person holds a forward compelling amendments, which have, perhaps different passport if he does not disclose that information. not at the first attempt, persuaded the Government to Further, as failure to disclose that you hold a passport adopt the policy. of a different nationality is not grounds for the refusal I should like to assure noble Lords that this is not a of a passport in the first place, there does not appear proposal that we have not looked at. However, while at to be anything to prevent the person in question first glance it seems to have attractions, examination simply applying for a new passport after the existing reveals that there are significant problems with it in one is withdrawn and cancelled. This would appear terms of its effect and its enforcement. We must be severely to undermine the effectiveness of the amendment. clear that a legitimate passport is but one documentary These are the practical problems associated with the proof of an individual’s identity. As has been said, a amendment, although we all identify with the wish person may legitimately hold passports of different behind it and the noble Lord’s intention of making nationalities, but those passports all do the same thing: our borders safer. At this stage, we remain unconvinced they confirm the person’s identity. that it is practical to put the proposal into effect. In criminal investigations, including those relating to terrorism, what is important is knowing the identity Lord Marlesford: My Lords, I thank noble Lords of a person of interest to the authorities. Passports who have taken part in this brief debate. I can reassure and other travel documents help with this, but they are everyone, including my noble friend with three passports, by no means the only way of fixing a person’s identity. that this is in no sense directed against dual or triple Details of persons of interest to UKBA and the law passport holders, or against having several passports. enforcement agencies are held centrally. These check As the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, pointed out, it is lists, containing names and known aliases, are used in narrowly intended that those who are being given a range of circumstances. When people are travelling, British citizenship should be required to disclose details passenger details are checked in advance against these of other passports that they hold. Of course it is check lists using our e-Borders system. In this way, an enforceable and recordable. If you apply for anything, individual of interest can be detected, regardless of be it a passport, a driving licence or an insurance how many passports he may legitimately hold, and policy, and you tell lies about it, you are subject to appropriate action can be taken. sanctions. If somebody deliberately conceals that they Furthermore, it is not clear that this amendment have another passport when they are asked and required would be enforceable. A passenger of dual nationality by law to declare it, it is not unreasonable for there to cannot be forced to show a passport of a particular be a sanction. Potentially, this would be the removal or nationality at a border. If he legitimately holds passports cancellation of the existing British passport. That of different nationalities, he is free to choose which seems to be perfectly sensible. 743 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 744

I have had other parliamentary answers in which it Clause 41: The qualifying period is made quite clear that the Government do not have the slightest idea how many British passport holders have other passports. That is a serious gap in their Amendment 35 information. We have to tackle it. I realise that we Moved by Baroness Hanham cannot make a decision tonight, but I hope that the 35: Clause 41, page 34, line 19, leave out from “period” to end Government will inquire properly into this. I look of line 33 and insert “is— forward to hearing in more detail from the noble Lord, in writing, about the points that I have made in (a) 6 years in a case within paragraph 1; this debate. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. (b) 3 years in a case within paragraph 3.”

Amendment 27 withdrawn. Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I return to a subject we have already discussed in Committee. So far as the citizenship requirements are concerned, we have been Amendments 28 to 30 through the changes of names of the various stages—I Moved by Lord West of Spithead do not think that we have achieved anything—but we now move to the requirements for citizenship. I want 28: Clause 39, page 29, line 38, at end insert— to concentrate on what those requirements will be ““(ba) treat the applicant as fulfilling the requirement under the earned citizenship proposals. specified in paragraph 1(2)(c) where the applicant has had a qualifying immigration status for only part of the It is ironic that while the Bill is so short on detail qualifying period;” that we have been trying to instil some transparency 29: Clause 39, page 29, line 39, leave out “requirements” and into it, Part 2 sets out a prescriptive list of requirements insert “requirement” for naturalisation that will have to be fulfilled. They 30: Clause 39, page 29, line 40, leave out “1(2)(c) and (d)” and include that people are of good character, have sufficient insert “1(2)(d)” knowledge of the English, Welsh or Scottish Gaelic language, and know about life in the United Kingdom. Amendments 28 to 30 agreed. Those are already requirements under previous legislation. They are not new; they have been part of the nationalisation procedure for some time. I do not Amendments 31 and 32 not moved. complain about them, although this is the first time that we have seen provisions from other legislation in this area laid out. It is right that they should be easily Clause 40: Application requirements: family members identifiable. However, the one requirement that has etc. not been part of the process so far is the need to undertake an activity. Amendment 33 Perhaps I may declare my role as chair of the Moved by Lord West of Spithead England Volunteering Development Council, which is part of Volunteering England. Two members of the 33: Clause 40, page 33, line 7, at end insert— staff of Volunteering England are on the design group “( ) treat A as fulfilling the requirement specified in that is formulating recommendations on how the activity paragraph 3(2)(c)(ii) (including where it can be fulfilled requirement is to work. I want to underline once again only as set out in paragraph 3(5)) where A has had a not my objection to the notion that some sort of qualifying immigration status for only part of the voluntary service could be a useful contribution to qualifying period;” citizenship, but to its virtually compulsory nature. In Committee the noble Lord, Lord Brett, said that it is Lord Hylton: My Lords, as I have asked for before, not compulsory, but if people want to expedite their could we have an explanation of the precise effect of citizenship application and get there on a faster track the five government amendments to Clauses 39 and by reducing the number of years on the journey, they 40? To the best of my knowledge, we have not had one will feel compelled to fulfil this requirement. It is so far. therefore essential to ensure that there is clarity about what “activity” actually means, how potential citizens Lord Brett: My Lords, I am more than happy to are going to know what they should do, and what write the noble Lord and explain the amendments in would qualify as voluntary work. It is also essential greater detail, if that would be helpful to him. that they know how to access the relevant information. Many people who come to this country hail from Amendment 33 agreed. completely different cultures with no detailed idea of what active citizenship or voluntary service actually mean. We need much greater clarity on the amount of Amendment 34 time they need to be involved. I understand that the current suggestion is likely to be a minimum of 50 hours; Moved by Lord West of Spithead that is the recommendation from the design group. 34: Clause 40, page 33, line 8, leave out from “the” to “where” But how those 50 hours are to be achieved, and over in line 10 and insert “requirement specified in paragraph 3(2)(d)” what timescale, has still not been properly identified. It could be 50 hours over six months or even six years. Amendment 34 agreed. The information I have seen does not make it clear. 745 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 746

[BARONESS HANHAM] The amendment takes into account what they can do, Another problem is that the Independent Safeguarding where they are living and what sort of activities are Authority, which will operate from September this available there, what their community sees as its year, is to be the arbiter of the CRB checks. Can the own priority, no doubt, and so on. It is a far more Minister tell us what level of checking citizenship normal way to further the aim that we all have that applicants will have to go through if they wish to work everybody should be happily slotted in to being an with children or older people, and how long the delay active citizen. is likely to be before they could start on what will be a I was also struck by the concerns of Volunteering necessary process? The entire experience of the CRB England, which are worth listing. Some refer to the and ISA is based on checking people who come from applicant, among them the concern that it might be this country, and not on those who do not necessarily hard to find opportunities. Certainly, I can see that have a history over here which can be identified. It applying to some rural areas. For example, where I live could be a long time before the checks to see whether in north Devon, if you were living on the fringes of people are suitable are ratified. It could also rule out a Exmoor for some reason—if you had, perhaps, come great deal of voluntary work if whichever of the ISA here to be something as remote as a beekeeper—it or the CRB deals with it is not able to bring those might be hard to find any other volunteering activities forward at some speed. out there. It will also be a requirement that anyone doing Volunteering England is also concerned about whether voluntary work will have to have a referee, who will applicants would understand the criteria. A very serious have to sign the document confirming that the applicant’s problem, which it lists next, is the risk of devaluing activity had been properly carried out. However, while volunteering. That is something that we should all the design group suggested that any regulation of bear in mind: volunteering is supposed to be just that applicants will be light touch, there are potential penalties and, if it becomes compulsory, it is hard to still call it if the referee makes any false statement. There is volunteering. The fact that Volunteering England has concern that that may deter some people from acting this concern is something that the Minister should as referees, particularly if they are from small organisations take seriously. The process should not become a tick-box or not absolutely certain what qualifies as a suitable exercise. activity. The referee will, as I understand it, have to come from the organisation supervising the activity; 9.30 pm will it, then, be a requirement that that person is Volunteering England is concerned, too, about the sufficiently senior to know all the answers about whether treatment of volunteers, as some organisations might the activity is proper? be a bit ruthless. If they know that the applicant has to Questions remain, therefore, about those who will be a volunteer, they might exploit them. Then there is find it difficult to give the time to an activity, such as the question of volunteer expenses. Volunteering England mothers with young children, particularly as we have also lists a lot of concerns about host organisations. just discussed that one requirement for full citizenship That is equally serious; at the moment most host is that there will be people who will have been in organisations, especially the smaller ones, are already virtually full-time employment. Mothers with small or under tremendous pressure. What are they supposed disabled children are going to find that difficult, and it to do if three or four people turn up wishing to seems hard to jeopardise their possibility of an expedited volunteer, making large demands on the time of the citizenship for that reason. Will there be any let-out or people running the organisations? On the other hand, exceptions made for people whose position makes it it would be mean to turn them down, because that completely impossible for them to do an activity but would jeopardise the possibility of even becoming a who, under any other circumstances, would want to citizen. because that activity is in the list of requirements? I Volunteering England mentions supporting applicants beg to move. with additional needs; that will, again, be hard for smaller organisations. If most people are addressing The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall): big organisations, by its very nature that will become a My Lords, I must inform the House that, if the problem for the big organisations. There are also lots amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 36, of legal issues to be addressed. Then there is the by reason of pre-emption. question of referees, which the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, talked about. Wouldthey have direct knowledge of the activities? The Government fall back on the fact Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I that local authorities could do a lot of the accrediting. shall speak to Amendment 36 and the amendments The Minister will know that local authorities at the consequential upon it in this group. moment, for one reason or other to do with the The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, has raised economic crisis, are under tremendous pressure. There some important questions. In Committee, we discussed is simply not the capacity in their staff to take on a what a bureaucratic nature this system has, and I read whole other tranche of work doing vast amounts of carefully what the Minister said about the design team accreditation. and its work. Nevertheless, a fundamental question I still have deep concerns about the bureaucratic remains: why can the person not provide, at least nature of this design, whether or not a design group initially, proof of what they have been doing as an has been designing it. It would seem a much better active citizen? That seems the right way round, so my starting point to come from where the applicant is and Amendment 36 suggests it. That is the right approach. then, if the UKBA staff assessing the situation have 747 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 748 serious concerns, they could start the checks. In an My noble friend listed many concerns raised in this awful lot of cases, the letter and back-up materials document. I will highlight one item that the Government would be sufficient in themselves. should pay attention to, namely the burden of the active citizenship scheme on organisations that will employ volunteers and the fact that the scheme has The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, I feel sorry for the not planned a budget or guidance for helping organisations Minister, as the Government are on a very sticky to meet these costs. I invite the Minister to say whether wicket here. He said that he preferred the description, this is the end of the matter and whether there will be “a fog of uncertainty”, because he did not know what no public money to assist volunteer organisations that shape the activities would take. As the noble Baroness, participate in the scheme. Lady Hanham, said, several of us met two representatives I also ask the Minister what he has to say about from Volunteering England, who gave a very full Volunteering England’s injunction to local authorities explanation of the ideas of the design group. I have and other public bodies to fully engage with the scheme read the latest document in the Library, and I am as potential host organisations. My noble friend has grateful to the Minister for circulating another said that we are expecting a lot of the existing volunteer version. However, I still have serious misgivings about organisations. Can we not enlist public authorities to the principle. fill the gap, if there are not going to be enough places? I have heard the noble Baronesses talking in detail. I seriously think that may be the case, if there is It worries me a little that we are getting into the detail; suddenly a host of applications from people wanting I do not know why we are even discussing it today. I to take part in the active citizenship scheme and there have misgivings about the whole scheme, because it are no places for them. How are we enlisting local seems to be in contradiction of the whole point of authorities and statutory bodies to fill the gap? Obviously, voluntary work. I said in Committee that voluntary no effort has been made so far, otherwise Volunteering work should be judged retrospectively, as it is rather England would have known about it. like a curriculum vitae and, far from designing activities in advance, whether you get the co-operation of the Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I suggest voluntary sector or not, the Government should take that this needs to be looked at very thoroughly. It is a account of the work that the applicant has done, not nice, good, warm idea, but the structure and guidance prescribe what it should be. Voluntary work is just seem completely absent. When somebody comes from that—something that a person volunteers for. It can an entirely different culture and environment, you never be a condition. I do not see how the monitoring cannot expect them immediately to take their place in exercise will work. Think of how many avenues you a volunteering sense in a community. It will take time. have to go down in the voluntary sector. It would be a They have to become aware of the community and its classic, expensive piece of bright red bureaucracy, needs. Some of them will be thrilled to voluntarily with no clear conclusions for citizens. volunteer; that is what they will want to do. However, I am not against listing types of voluntary work. I we are asking the ordinary person on the citizenship am not against using volunteering as supporting evidence path to do something that the majority of people in to help towards a qualification or drawing up guidelines. the UK do not do. What percentage of those in the I am against the voluntary sector being roped in to United Kingdom volunteer? I do not know; it is a police a scheme, almost as an agent of government. question that we cannot answer. However, we must After all, non-governmental work is often the opposite not ask those from different backgrounds and cultures of government. to do more than we are willing to do. I suggest that The Minister made another important point in they will also come across hurdles such as CRB checks. Committee—col. 562 of Hansard—when he said that Who will verify their CRB checks if they are new in organisations had not raised major concerns. Well, the community? We want to see all these things work they would not, would they? They have not been told and we would love to see people integrated into our about the scheme. Only a handful of organisations communities, but we need far more guidance than we have been drafted in. The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, are currently receiving. suggested a pilot scheme before this goes into legislation, which may be a good idea. It might work, but I Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I am afraid remain sceptical, and I go along in particular with that I, too, am very sceptical about this volunteering Amendment 36. scheme. At Second Reading, I said that it seemed quite wrong to be requiring this degree of volunteering in Lord Avebury: My Lords, like my noble friend, I order to knock quite a proportion off the increased was impressed by the Volunteering England briefing. I period required for qualifying for citizenship. Above hope that the Government have received a copy, because all, if we all volunteered—it would be a good idea, and it contains serious criticisms of the way that the scheme a large proportion of people do during their lifetime—it is being approached. Those must be taken on board by might be much more acceptable. However, as the the Government, because Volunteering England is a noble Lord has just said, to require it not of all participant in the UK Border Agency’s active citizenship citizens but only for this reason is not a good idea. design group, which is advising civil servants on how We all need to know a great deal more about the the proposals could affect the voluntary sector. If point about Volunteering England and the design Volunteering England, as a participant in the design group, which everybody seems a bit nonplussed by. If group, has raised all these questions, surely we need to the Government are absolutely fixed on it, I suppose probe much more thoroughly into what the Government’s that we are not likely to see them pull back from it. plans are. Particularly in the case of those immigrants with the 749 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 750

[BARONESS HOWE OF IDLICOTE] Library which contains more information from the sort of families that require a great deal of time to care Active Citizenship Design Group on its emerging thinking. for—family members may be disabled or have learning Where I cannot deal with noble Lords’ questions difficulties and so on—and, above all, of those who tonight I undertake to write to them with a more detailed have been performing for some time within their own response. communities to help new immigrants to settle into our I hope that the information we have provided goes community, I would automatically give them a tremendous some way to alleviate noble Lords’ concerns and shows plus and entitle them to citizenship rather earlier. I that we are willing to share our findings as soon hope that this can be gone into in much more detail. as they have been agreed by the design group. We want provisions that will work and be transparent. I also Lord Brett: My Lords, I appreciate the contributions trust that this information demonstrates that we are that have been made. I heard some of these points developing proposals on active citizenship in the fairest made in great detail in Committee. I will not repeat and most common-sense manner. Therefore, I hope what I said then, except for two points. First, the that noble Lords will not feel that they have to press Government are clear that they see active citizenship their amendments. as a positive way for migrants to earn citizenship more These amendments would severely restrict the ability quickly and to assist with their integration into British of the Secretary of State to prescribe in regulations society. However, I hear a number of terms, and I the conditions which will be used to determine when a heard them in Committee, such as “roped in” and person meets the active citizenship requirement. However, “compulsory”. It would not be compulsory for any we are not seeking to determine that from on high. migrant to participate in the active citizenship scheme. The design group is discussing the legitimate questions It would not be compulsory for any voluntary organisation asked by Volunteering England and other bodies, and to take part in the scheme. It would not be compulsory no doubt will in turn ask those questions of the Home for any local authority. This scheme is, we hope, Office. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, asked about designed by those who know rather better than Home people effectively being able to self-assess their Office civil servants and—dare I say it?—Ministers contributions. It is hard to see how a system that relies what will work and what incentive we are seeking to solely on evidence submitted by the applicant would create. In fact, the design group itself is voluntary. operate. We need to set down certain parameters to this Volunteering England has asked a series of relevant requirement which can be easily understood and followed questions and there are others. All the questions put by all concerned so that we produce a not overly by noble Lords tonight have the validity of a question bureaucratic system which people value and seek to to which there must be an answer. However, that take up. answer is coming through the design group. The questions are discussed within the design group, although some Noble Lords have mentioned people with disabilities of them will be external and will have to be addressed or those with family responsibilities. Discretion is built to the Home Office as the sponsoring department that in to the system to allow such circumstances to be wants to see this light-touch, non-bureaucratic system taken into account. Noble Lords also referred to the put in place. need for a light touch to be applied. The noble Baroness, It is a mistake to suggest that the compulsion Lady Hanham, asked what CRB checks are required element is severe. It is not. If people do not want to with regard to active citizenship. Criminal Record volunteer in real life, they do not, and they will not do Bureau checks are a key concern. We acknowledge so in these circumstances or otherwise. However, this that there is clear benefit in carrying out these checks is about providing an incentive, which will help not in order to protect our children and vulnerable adults only the individual but the integration of migrants from harm. Clearly, it is not an option to abandon into our society so that our society is at ease with itself those checks. Protection issues must take precedence and understands the multicultural and multiethnic in this area. CRB checks are relevant to certain existing backgrounds of its citizens. volunteering opportunities. However, many of the individuals and organisations who take part in active In Committee, several noble Lords expressed interest citizenship will not have to get involved in CRB checks. in the work of the design group. I believe that a But as part of our communications strategy we will document exists entitled Clearing the Fog. A further ensure that migrants are aware of what is expected in substantial document has been produced and I have terms of CRB checks if they choose to volunteer to arranged to have it put in the Library. However, this is work with children or vulnerable adults. not the end game by any means. The Bill will proceed through the other place, where no doubt demands will I was also asked about the role of the referee. We be made for updated information, and the questions need to prescribe who can act as referee to ensure that which have been posed here and others will be asked those verifying active citizenship can make a quick and will need to be answered. However, the situation is objective decision and that applicants can approach a not entirely as has been suggested tonight because in suitable person for that reference. Our current Committee I heard some noble Lords speak in support proposal is that a referee should be defined as of the proposal. Indeed, some noble Lords support it someone in a supervisory capacity with personal tonight. They are not questioning the concept but knowledge of the applicant’s active citizenship. This asking practical questions about how to make it successful. presents a lower risk of fraud compared to allowing Those questions deserve to be answered. It is vital that simply anyone to act as a referee. The referee will have people understand how the measure will operate. That personal knowledge of the activity and, because they is why we have placed a further document in the are in a supervisory capacity, they will be keen to 751 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[25 MARCH 2009] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 752 protect the reputation of the organisation that they years’ worth of trying to become citizen when they can represent, as well as assisting the applicant. As I said, cut corners and get in a couple of years sooner by it is important that we have information available, doing this voluntary activity? It is as near compulsory that migrants can find out what the opportunities are as makes no matter. It is quite a burden on the and that those from different cultures can understand voluntary sector, and there is a lot more to be worked the concept of volunteering as it has grown up in the out. UK over the past century or more. I understood the Minister saying that the design One of the suggestions is providing an information group recommendations will be a statutory instrument pack for migrants on arrival in the UK and, equally, and will come to both Houses for affirmative resolution. when they are seeking probationary citizenship. There The Minister nods, so we can have that on the record. may be other questions that I have not been able to That will be something, and we will have another answer, but I offer to pick those up and write to noble chance. The Minister has made a lot of promises to Lords. write to us with responses, but Third Reading now has I appreciate that noble Lords are concerned that we such strict rules that we are not going to be able to are coming with a lot of information which, if not a make use of the information that we get. It would have fog, still has a degree of mist around it. I offer the been helpful to have had it in advance. assurance that the regulations will be subject to the This has been an important debate. I thank the affirmative procedure, so that Parliament will be able noble Baroness, Lady Miller, and other noble Lords to scrutinise and agree beforehand what emerges from for their contributions and I thank those who were this very hands-on—for those involved—and, we hope, present at the meeting with Volunteering England who voluntary system, which will assist the migrants and took on board the concerns which have already been the aims not only of the Government but of everyone raised with the design group. Those concerns did not in this House for a more integrated society which is at arrive through a backdoor as they had already been ease with itself. raised. For today, and probably for the rest of the Bill, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, can I clarify one detail? If there is no adequate scheme Amendment 35 withdrawn. available for an individual migrant within a reasonable travelling distance of where they are living, would they Amendment 36 not moved. be exempt? The Minister may well say that it is covered by discretion. If there is no adequate scheme available, Amendment 37 would they be exempt, or would they be prejudiced by delay for the two years? Moved by Lord Hylton 37: Clause 41, page 34, line 33, at end insert— “(6) In the case of an applicant with refugee status or humanitarian Lord Brett: My Lords, the noble Baroness asked a protection status, the number of years in the period is 5.” very good question, and I do not know the answer. In essence, I would have thought that the first thing was to establish clearly with all the available voluntary Lord Hylton: My Lords, I have spoken briefly to the organisations where opportunities might be most amendment, but I want to move it now as I would like local and most appropriate. Failing that, this is a to hear why the Government believe that refugees question for both the design group and the Home should have to do voluntary or community activities Office officials liaising with it to have on board. Again, in the same way as economic migrants or regular I will look into it, and I will happily write to the noble visitors or incoming spouses and other such categories. Baroness. I beg to move.

Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the Minister Lord Brett: My Lords, with the lateness of the hour for his reply; unfortunately, most of the questions still I shall be succinct. We believe that all citizens who remain. It may be that until the design group has seek to become members of our community by being reported or come to its final conclusions those questions British citizens will have the advantages of and gain are going to hang about, because they are absolutely from the active citizenship proposals. We see no reason germane to how this activity requirement will work. why refugees would want to exempt themselves from that or to be treated differently. We give them refugee One area which was raised by the noble Baroness, status and the assistance that goes with it and I do not Lady Miller, and which I touched on, is important for believe that that should exclude them from this group. the Government to take on board. Who is going to If I can provide any more detail, I shall write to the pay the voluntary organisations for helping to undertake noble Lord. this work? The volunteers by definition may very well need volunteer expenses, such as childcare, travel and so on. That needs to be taken into account and cannot Lord Hylton: My Lords, I am not very satisfied with just be slid over. The worry about this is that the that reply but it is all I shall get tonight. I beg leave to Government issued a question and answer document, withdraw the amendment. and this expenses question was not part of it. It is something that needs to be picked up. Amendment 37 withdrawn. Of course, it is not compulsory, but in reality it is compulsory. Who is going to want to do another two Amendments 38 to 40 not moved. 753 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration[LORDS] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 754

Lord Hylton: My Lords, I do not wish to move the Amendment 41 amendment unless the Minister wishes to make a statement on it. Tabled by Lord Hylton 41: Clause 41, page 35, line 19, at end insert— Amendment 41 not moved. “( ) For the avoidance of doubt, the qualifying period for persons with full refugee status, who have complied with Article Consideration on Report adjourned. 31(1) of the UN Convention on Refugees (T951), shall commence with the date of their entry into the United Kingdom.” House adjourned at 9.57 pm. GC 195 Arrangement of Business[25 MARCH 2009] Local Government Order 2009 GC 196

parish councils in Bedfordshire so that their elections Grand Committee are properly synchronised with the election cycles for the new Bedford Borough Council and Central Wednesday, 25 March 2009. Bedfordshire Council. Part 2 also adds provisions to the structural change Arrangement of Business orders for Cornwall, Northumberland, Shropshire, Announcement Wiltshire and County Durham to make provision regarding the names of the new councils, essentially 3.45 pm allowing them, subject to resolution, to omit the word “county”from their legal names. This is entirely sensible. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Paul): It was requested by the councils themselves to provide Before the Minister moves that the first order be the new unitary councils with the opportunity to considered, I remind noble Lords that in the case of adopt truly new identities in the eyes of their residents the two orders, the Motion before the Committee will and, just as importantly, to make a fresh start in the be that it do consider the order in question. I should eyes of the new council staff, whether they are from perhaps make it clear that the Motions to approve the the previous county or district councils. orders will be moved in the Chamber in the usual way. Part 3 of the order makes provision for the appointment of charter trustees as appropriate bodies in which Local Government (Structural Changes) historic rights and privileges may vest for parts of (Miscellaneous Amendments and Other Cheshire West and Chester, Cheshire East, and County Durham. As has been requested by both the new and Provision) Order 2009 outgoing councils in the areas affected, we are creating Considered in Grand Committee charter trustees for the cities of Chester and Durham, the towns of Crewe and Macclesfield and the historic 3.46 pm area of Ellesmere Port, to which historic rights can be transferred until such time as an appropriate parish Moved By Baroness Andrews council is established to which those rights can transfer. That the Grand Committee do report to the Members of the Committee should note that the House that it has considered the Local Government actual transfer of historic rights and privileges to (Structural Changes) (Miscellaneous Amendments these charter trustees is made in regulations of general and Other Provision) Order 2009. application which have been laid before this House. Special provision is also made in this order in relation The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, to market rights in Chester, where we have provided Department for Communities and Local Government that these rights vest in the Cheshire West and Chester (Baroness Andrews): As Members of the Committee Council, essentially allowing the new council to continue will know, this order is consequential on the local to run the Chester market. government structural change orders that Parliament Part 3 also provides for the retention of the ceremonial agreed in early 2008. The order makes specific provision counties of Cheshire and Bedfordshire by amending to ensure that various matters relevant to the new the Lieutenancies Act 1997 and the Sheriffs Act 1887 single-tier councils are dealt with before the reorganisation to update the definition of counties for the purposes date. of these Acts. These changes are necessary to update the statute Part 4 of the order makes provision for the vesting book in light of the changes made by the structural of the local government pension fund maintained by change orders. Without these provisions, some of the the Bedfordshire County Council and the fund maintained new unitary councils would have to continue to refer by Cheshire County Council. It provides, further to to themselves as county councils, which is extremely the results of the consultation with those affected, that confusing for their communities. Areas with historic these funds will vest in Bedford Borough Council and traditions, including city status, would be lost to local Cheshire West and Chester Council respectively. residents. For example, Chester City would no longer be Chester City; new unitary councils would not be Part 5 of the order makes amendments to a number able to appoint members to relevant national parks or of port health authority orders. These orders are areas of outstanding natural beauty conservation boards amended to reflect the changes as a consequence of within their areas; and there would be no administering the new local government arrangements in Cheshire, authority for the Cheshire and Bedfordshire pension Cornwall and Northumberland, and provide for the funds. I am sure that noble Lords would agree that new single-tier unitary councils to exercise the port these are necessary and sensible measures. health functions after 1 April. I shall take a little time to go through the order in Part 6 of the order makes provision regarding the more detail. Part 2 of the order makes provision to membership of the conservation boards for the Chilterns ensure that members of the new Central Bedfordshire area of outstanding natural beauty and the Cotswolds Council’s shadow executive can continue as members area of outstanding natural beauty to reflect the changes of that executive until the June election notwithstanding to local authority arrangements as a consequence of that the authorities from which they were appointed reorganisations in Bedfordshire and Wiltshire. Similar will cease to exist before that date. Provision is also provision is made for the membership of the national made to amend the electoral arrangements for some park authorities, the New Forest and the Peak District, GC 197 Local Government Order 2009[LORDS] Local Government Order 2009 GC 198

[BARONESS ANDREWS] The Boundary Committee commenced its electoral to reflect the changes as a consequence of the changes review in Cornwall, Shropshire and Wiltshire in February in local government arrangements in Wiltshire and 2008. The Electoral Commission and the Boundary Cheshire. Committee have essentially done what was expected of Part 7 of the order makes a number of miscellaneous them and completed the review in Shropshire and amendments. These include amendments to primary Wiltshire. We understand that the orders for these legislation which use local authority boundaries to authorities specifying the new wards which will be define geographical areas and which are updated to used for the 2009 local government elections in June refer to the new local authority arrangements. Provision were made by the commission on 6 March. is also made in this part for the membership of the However, in the case of Cornwall, the Boundary River Tweed Commission consequential upon the Committee and the Electoral Commission have, for a restructuring in Northumberland. Provision is also number of reasons, failed to deliver the new electoral made to designate Central Bedfordshire Council as arrangements in time for the June election. This is the relevant council for Bedfordshire and Luton coroner’s unfortunate. Delay has largely been caused because of district within the meaning of Section 1(1)(a) of the the difficulty that the Boundary Committee and the Coroners Act 1988. The relevant council is responsible council have about agreeing the appropriate size of the for the appointment of coroners and has other functions new council. in connection with coroners under the 1988 Act. On 15 August 2008, the Boundary Committee wrote I am sure that Members of the Committee will to the leader of Cornwall County Council, confirming agree that the provisions in the order are sensible and that on the basis of the evidence available to it, it was necessary consequential amendments following the minded to base its draft recommendations on a council structural change orders that Parliament has already size of 123 members for the new unitary authority. approved. However, I propose to speak now to the Cornwall (Electoral “given the serious delay to which this review of Cornwall has been subject, the view of the Boundary Committee is that there is Arrangements and Consequential Amendments) Order now no possibility of any new electoral arrangements being 2009. This order contains necessary and sensible provisions implemented in any combined elections in June 2009”. which are consequential on the Cornwall (Structural Members of the Committee can see the difficulty Change) Order that was approved by Parliament in we face. All, including the Boundary Committee, are February 2009. The order makes provision for the in agreement that there should be 123 councillors for 2009 local government elections to be held on the basis the new unitary council, instead of the existing 82 for of 123 electoral divisions, implementing the Boundary the current county council. However, the Boundary Committee’s draft recommended warding arrangements Committee is not in a position to specify the new as published on 2 December 2008. These changes are electoral divisions. Indeed, it only finished consulting necessary as without them the elections in Cornwall on a draft of what the new wards could be on 10 February would be held on the basis of 71 wards returning 2009, and there is no prospect of it making an order 82 councillors, a number which is widely recognised by specifying new wards in time for the 4 June elections. all in Cornwall and all involved in electoral administration as not sufficient to provide the strategic leadership When the Merits Committee said in its report that that is needed for the new unitary Cornwall Council. the decision to proceed with North Cornwall council elections in June 2009 had not been an obvious one, I As we come to debate the order we find ourselves in would point to this process and the reason why there unusual circumstances, to which the Merits Committee has been delay, and the admission by the Boundary has referred, and I will address some of the issues it Committee that there was no prospect of it making an has raised. The circumstances are unusual because, in order specifying new wards in time for the 4 June most cases, provision for electoral arrangements would elections. Furthermore, when it became clear that the be made by the Electoral Commission on the basis of Electoral Commission was not going to be able to recommendations by the Boundary Committee. However, make an order in time for the elections, in the debate Members of the Committee will be aware of a series of on the draft Local Elections (Ordinary Day of Elections events which explain why we are in this unusual position in 2009) Order 2008, the Minister for Local Government today. I shall explain the background and put it on the stated that he was, record as part of understanding the order. “minded to introduce for consideration an order that would, In February 2008, when the structural change orders exceptionally, move the election date for Cornwall from the establishing the new unitary councils were approved beginning of June to the end of October 2009”.—[Official Report, by Parliament, we planned that three of the new Commons, 20/11/08; col. 771W.] unitaries based on existing county areas—Cornwall, However, before introducing such an order, the Shropshire and Wiltshire—would have elections in Minister proposed to take soundings seeking views May/June 2009 on the basis of new ward electoral from those affected in Cornwall and, as necessary, divisions, together with a new number of councillors, from the Boundary Committee and the Electoral reflecting the new unitary status of the council. It was Commission. That exercise was commenced on for the Boundary Committee and the Electoral 1 December last year, when the Minister wrote to Commission to decide the number of councillors there Cornish MPs, all Cornish councils, the Electoral would be in future and to designate new wards, which Commission and the Boundary Committee. As part would be established by a non-parliamentary order of the exercise, he made it clear that central to any made by the Electoral Commission following a process decision on deferral was the likelihood of the of consultation undertaken by the Boundary Committee. Electoral Commission putting in place the new electoral GC 199 Local Government Order 2009[25 MARCH 2009] Local Government Order 2009 GC 200 arrangements in time for an October election. If there before it has a newly elected and mandated council of was any significant likelihood of this timetable not sufficient size to lead the new council? When would being met, he believed that it would be wrong to defer this election be? Would it be in May 2010 or May the election and a preferable course might be to hold 2013, when there would be more and unforgiving elections on 4 June 2009, but on the basis of interim uncertainty? electoral arrangements to be specified in an order If the local elections are not held in June, the which, if Parliament approved, the Secretary of State council will continue to be run, until elections can be could make under the Local Government and Public held, by the implementation executive, which, as noble Involvement in Health Act 2007. The Minister was Lords will remember from our debates, is essentially quite clear that there was an option here, and a condition an appointed body made up of county councillors and being set. That is in part our answer to the concern of some district councillors whose councils are being the Merits Committee. abolished on 31 March 2009. I cannot believe that that The Electoral Commission’s response to the soundings is a situation that noble Lords would wish to see. It exercise stated: certainly was not a situation that the local MPs in the “Aiming to hold elections in October 2009 using electoral area wanted to see. arrangements which have been approved by the Electoral Commission In an ideal world, we would see an election held in relies heavily on meeting an uncertain timetable for implementing the electoral review recommendations and could involve considerable June on the basis of boundaries made on the final risk to effective administration of the electoral process”. recommendations of the Boundary Committee, and the Electoral Commission would have made an order In other words, the commission could not guarantee to establish them in time for the election. However, what the Minister had asked for—that the arrangements this is not the situation in which we find ourselves. It is would be finalised for an October election. Given this most important now that we ensure that the new position, the Government felt that it would be wrong Cornwall Council gets off to the best start and that it to proceed on any basis other than a June 2009 election. is of a sufficient size to ensure that it has the strength of leadership to deliver improved service delivery from the earliest opportunity. 4pm The Merits Committee said that the Government On 19 February 2009, the Minister for Local should have willed the means to ensure that the Government confirmed that the local elections to the preparatory stages were completed in time. Both the new unitary council for Cornwall would go ahead on Electoral Commission and the Boundary Committee Thursday 4 June 2009 and that the Government intended are independent of government. There is no role for to lay an order before Parliament that would provide government in influencing the electoral review process. for the elections to be held on the basis of the draft electoral arrangements that the Boundary Committee As I said, the order provides for the draft electoral has been consulted on, which would have the effect of divisions on which the Boundary Committee has been returning 123 councillors for the new unitary council. consulting. There were suggestions in another place to As I have said, without such an order, the elections in modify these boundaries. Referring to the debate in Cornwall would be held on the basis of 71 wards another place, I am sure that noble Lords understand returning 82 councillors, a number which is widely that it would be quite wrong for the Government to recognised by everyone in Cornwall and everyone amend boundaries on an ad hoc basis following involved in electoral administration as not sufficient representations from individuals who may have a vested effectively to run the council. interest without the means to test the validity of the Accordingly, we have laid this order before Parliament, boundaries suggested by local people. and we find ourselves debating it this afternoon. If it is It has also been suggested that boundaries could be approved, we will make the order under the Local amended where there is consensus among parties or Government and Public Involvement in Health Act councils. However, altering boundaries is not a simple 2007, specifying the electoral divisions for the Cornwall decision based on agreement. Representations would 2009 local government elections on 4 June. have to be considered against the key criteria of electoral Some have questioned whether the Government’s equality, community identity, and effective and convenient objective of providing for democratic legitimacy—that local government. Indeed, those representations have is, a fully elected council—for the new Cornwall Council been made to the Boundary Committee and not to the as soon as possible after its inception could have been Government. The Government are not in a position to more fully achieved if elections had taken place after test representations without regard to the key criteria. the Electoral Commission had completed its electoral The only way in which to proceed with any safety review. This question was also raised by the Merits while recognising, as we do, the imperfections, is for Committee. However, as I have just explained, even in the elections to go ahead on the basis of the boundaries January when the Boundary Committee responded to proposed by the independent Boundary Committee. the soundings exercise, it felt that the timetable for The approach that we are proposing will therefore implementation was uncertain and that it could not be give the new Cornwall Council full democratic legitimacy sure that it would be able to make an order in time for as soon as possible as a newly elected body of councillors an October 2009 election. It appears that there is still in June. In the expectation that the next election to the no certainty about when the order will be made. council will be held in May 2013, on the basis of the Is there then some suggestion that the council should Electoral Commission’s final electoral arrangements, have to wait until an unspecified later date when the our proposals will allow the new council from its early Electoral Commission has decided on finalised boundaries days to have the strength and stability necessary to GC 201 Local Government Order 2009[LORDS] Local Government Order 2009 GC 202

[BARONESS ANDREWS] quickly. My officials, too, are in contact with the pursue innovative and demanding improvements in council on a weekly basis as a minimum, and they service delivery and give it clear and effective leadership have very recently visited the council as part of a particularly at this time of great economic challenges. stock-take exercise on unitary implementation progress A final issue is capacity to implement new arrangements that the Minister has asked them to undertake. to a very tight timetable so close to the election. The The immediate challenge for administrators in Cornwall timing of this order specifying the wards for the 4 June is finalising and publishing the updated registers on elections in Cornwall is about the same as the Electoral the basis of the new electoral divisions for 1 April Commission’s own orders for Shropshire and Wiltshire. 2009, ahead of the notice of election on 28 April. We accept that electoral administrators in Cornwall, That, too, has been a challenging deadline but I am unlike those in other counties, have not been certain told that the council is on track to meet it. Following about when or on what basis the elections would be the publication of the register the council will essentially held. The Minister for Local Government announced move into business as usual as far as preparation for his decision as soon as was practicable, on 19 February, the elections is concerned. in order to provide all those in Cornwall with clarity Of course the timing is tight and of course we wish as early as possible. it had been otherwise. However, in our judgment the We know that the work being undertaken in risks posed are wholly manageable. The alternative—no preparation for an election on the basis of new electoral new electoral mandate for the council, and the divisions is challenging, but it is significant that Cornwall implementation executive, which was always meant as Council is confident that it can meet it. Indeed, senior a temporary forum, continuing to lead the new council— officers of Cornwall County Council have commented presents a serious risk to the success of the new that they believe that the 4 June combined local and unitary council and puts in jeopardy the delivery of European elections can be organised on the basis of local services in Cornwall. That is a risk we cannot new wards. They have sufficient resources to deliver run. As the Minister for Local Government made this, they have dedicated resources, and they have clear when he confirmed the decision to proceed with sufficient programme management resources to ensure an election on this basis, what is most important at that the election is delivered successfully. this point is to provide effective local leadership and With the correct support, the job is entirely doable. improved service delivery for Cornwall’s people and to Officials in CLG have facilitated discussions between ensure that the council has real democratic legitimacy those leading the preparations in Cornwall and Ministry at the earliest opportunity, which would give it the best of Justice officials, the Electoral Commission, the start possible. I commend the orders to the Committee. Association of Electoral Administrators and SOLACE’s electoral panel, about providing support for Cornwall. Lord Bates: I am grateful to the Minister for setting All of them have been incredibly helpful. Following out so comprehensively the case for the orders and the discussions the Electoral Commission and the explaining them in considerable detail. She has a well AEA are working with the council directly, undertaking deserved reputation for going through the detail on a series of assurance reviews to support the combined these things and that is very much appreciated. election within Cornwall. An initial review undertaken We cannot miss an opportunity to mention again on Tuesday 10 March looked at, among other things: the big-picture issue here: consequential orders on the the overall approach to delivering the combined elections reorganisation of local government. These orders are within Cornwall to ensure that a low-risk approach is necessary because of the introduction of the five new being undertaken; the governance, management and unitary authorities that are coming our way. This side reporting arrangements relating to the project; the of the Committee tried to resist the change because we risks and issues, with associated mitigating and corrective felt it was taking decision-making away from small activities; the process for generating polling districts’ local authorities that were closer to the people whom electoral registers from Boundary Committee draft they represented and the place where they raised taxes. recommendations and verifying those registers; the Moving to these monolithic, giant authorities, particularly polling district review approach and evidence; and in the case of Durham and Northumberland, is polling day arrangements. I have gone into this degree detrimental and has a democratic deficit attached to of detail because they are precisely the challenges that it. I speak and declare an interest as a council tax we need to know Cornwall is capable of meeting. payer of the County of Durham—or should I call it This initial review was very encouraging. Both the Durham now? I am not quite sure. Perhaps it is the AEA and the Electoral Commission were impressed Shire of Durham. I remember being taught in my with the amount of work that had been done in history lessons that, when it was originally founded, Cornwall and the progress that had been made. I am the proper name for the County of Durham was the told that they are confident that, on the basis of the area of St Cuthbert between the Tyne and the Wear. I plans to date, sufficient programme management am not sure that we need to go back that far, with all arrangements and measures are in place to deliver a due reverence to St Cuthbert, but the point is that successful election. County Durham has a traditional position, as did the Following the initial review, the AEA and the Electoral district authorities in places such as Sedgefield and the Commission are continuing to provide periodic review City of Durham where the local authorities were check points in line with the key stages of the project making a real difference and working very well. plan and to provide further assurance. In addition, the The change was sold to us on the basis that it would AEA will review the council’s plan and the risk register reduce expenses and be a much cheaper way of conducting weekly to ensure that any areas of concern are addressed local government. In her comments on 21 February GC 203 Local Government Order 2009[25 MARCH 2009] Local Government Order 2009 GC 204

2008, at col. GC48 of Hansard, the Minister said that Part 7 deals with amendment of the European in the case of County Durham, for example, the Parliamentary Elections Act and concerns some changes savings would be £11 million annually. If that is so, we that are going through. In the context of the Minister’s in Durham do not understand why it is proposed that remarks about elections and the timeliness of elections, our council tax bills should increase by 5 per cent this is it acceptable to be putting through amendments year. That is causing a lot of people and a lot of with regard to boundaries for European parliamentary businesses a lot of hardship in the present climate. elections and to be passing them in relation to Bedford An opinion poll conducted in Durham found that a and Bedfordshire with name changes this close to the massive 76 per cent of people across the whole of the European elections? Will it not lead to confusion? county were against this single unitary authority. The Could it not have been done at an earlier date? people of the north-east have a long tradition of their Perhaps I may also ask for clarification in respect of views expressed in opinion polls and referendums the amendment of the Scotland Act 1998 (River Tweed) being overridden by this Government. Of course, we Order 2006. This provision suggests that governorship had a referendum on a regional assembly, which was of the River Tweed will now become a joint responsibility; rejected by 78 per cent to 22 per cent. the council for the county of Northumberland will take over from Berwick-upon-Tweed. As someone who is regularly in Berwick, I am interested in where 4.15 pm the actual boundary falls between England and Scotland. I take the opportunity to say that we would have What consultations took place with the Scotland Office preferred it if the orders had not been necessary. We and what is the arrangement? Fish, I am reliably think that the previous arrangements represented informed, often swim between England and Scotland, something closer to the aspiration of the local people and not only to get free prescriptions and avoid tuition and something that local people clearly said they fees. It would be useful to know that. wanted. I have not seen a reorganisation in local On the Cornwall (Electoral Arrangements and government that does not end up costing a lot more Consequential Amendments) Order, some real concerns money than the previous arrangements. were mentioned. The Minister has explained at considerable Perhaps I may run through some parts of the order. length the background to the order, so I do not intend I turn, first, to ceremonial matters. The Minister mentioned to test her patience or that of the Committee in going that the charter trustees would hold on to these ceremonial through it further. However, it is important to place on rights until a parish authority or another authority record our support for the conclusion of the Merits of could be formed. It would be useful to know what it is Statutory Instruments Committee. It said: envisaged that authority should be and when it will “It is clear that the decision to proceed with Cornwall Council come into being. There is some reference in the order elections in June 2009 has not been an obvious one for the to how charter trustees, which is a very grand name, Department to take”. will be appointed. We would want to resist and probe In parliamentary draftsman-speak, I suppose that means further anything other than charter trustees being that it was the wrong decision to take. It continues: elected representatives and being democratically “The proposal advanced by DCLG at the outset of the accountable. Perhaps the Minister could look at that. December 2008 sounding exercise was the postponement of these The next issue that I want to mention briefly is local elections from June to October 2009, and this proposal was government pension funds in Cheshire. The order, in supported by the existing County Council … DCLG now say Article 13 under Part 4, makes provision for the division that, in confirming June 2009 as the date for the elections, the of rights and liabilities in respect of the fund to rest Minister for Local Government believed that this would give the new Cornwall Council ‘full democratic legitimacy as soon as with Cheshire West and Chester Council. There may possible after its inception’”. be a miracle under way here whereby the complex negotiation concerning who falls within each pension There seems to be some confusion because when fund and who is liable for the contributions as between Mr Khan referred to this on 16 March in the Committee the two councils of Cheshire West and Chester Council considering the order in another place, he said: has been resolved amicably, but it would be good if in “The approach that we are proposing will give the new Cornwall her response the Minister could tell us whether that council full democratic legitimacy as soon as possible. In the has now been formally agreed between the two councils expectation that the next council election will be held in May 2013 on the basis of the Electoral Commission’s final electoral arrangements, or whether there is still some element of dispute. the new council will, from its early days, have the strength and I was interested to see that Part 5 refers to the stability necessary to pursue innovative and demanding improvements amendment of port health authority orders. Last week, in service delivery”.—[Official Report, Commons, Second Delegated we debated the very distressing effect of the backdating Legislation Committee, 16/3/09; col. 5.] of the rating revaluation on ports. I hope that I will be That suggests that Sadiq Khan believes that that forgiven if I take this opportunity to remind the democratic legitimacy will come into effect in May Committee about the rating revaluation in the context 2013, as opposed to June this year. That is regrettable. of these port health authority orders. I should be It is not as if these orders are new; the draft Cornwall interested to know, for example, whether the port (Structural Change) Order 2008 was debated in Standing health authorities are classed as port-side operators. Committee on 7 February 2008 and approved by the In other words, will these health authorities, whose House on 18 February. A whole year has passed, and buildings are on the port side, be hit like other businesses it would seem that it was not too difficult to have the by the backdated rating revaluation? If so, that adds Boundary Committee look at those issues. When this further strength to what was demonstrated by a vote issue was taken to judicial review before Justice Cranston, in the Chamber last week to resist that revaluation. he found on 8 January 2009 that, GC 205 Local Government Order 2009[LORDS] Local Government Order 2009 GC 206

[LORD BATES] give us some assurance that there is no residual liability “consultation could properly proceed in stages so that the and that the rights of the pensioners are in no way decision to defer the issue of affordability was not improper; nor prejudiced by the transfer. Other than that, we welcome was it irrational; … While it was correct that consultation should the two orders. not be narrowly confined to expert opinion, but should extend to the public as a whole, and that consultation required the publication of sufficient information in a timely fashion, the 4.30 pm Boundary Committee had not failed in these respects; … The Boundary Committee had given proper consideration to the Lord Teverson: I, too, thank the Minister for her earlier Exeter proposal and had duly reached its own decision on long explanation. I am sure that I learnt a number of the matter … Nor had it been in error in considering the things. I shall apply my comments to the Cornwall requirement that any proposal must ‘in aggregate’ have to deliver order and, in doing so, I declare an interest: there is a outcomes specified in the five applicable criteria … Its possibility of my being a candidate in that election. considerations had, however, been constrained by legal advice that it could advance only one alternative proposal”. The most important thing about this issue is democracy. I feel strongly that, with a new local authority as The Minister touched on that point, but, for the important as Cornwall unitary will be, representing record, in a debate on this issue in another place my some 500,000 citizens, it is important that that authority colleague Hugo Swire said that he believed the Boundary has renewed and legitimate democratic control early in Committee had misinformed Devon Members of its life. The authority starts on 1 April but we will have Parliament by saying that the status quo was not an to wait until 4 June to hold elections, as that is the option. Following a legal challenge for judicial review earliest possible date. But we are now able to hold by East Devon, Mr Cranston made the point that I elections. I welcome that strongly, as do a number of have just made. It would be good to have the Minister’s my colleagues in Cornwall. At this time of unprecedented response to that. Other than that, we are happy to economic challenges, it is important that local authorities accede to the orders going through. have proper leadership and the legitimacy to move forward, agree strategies and plans, and implement Baroness Hamwee: I thank the Minister for her long them. It is important for the business community in and detailed introduction, as the noble Lord has just particular to know the direction of a local authority. said, in her usual careful fashion. I do not wish to To have left matters to the end of the year, with a rehearse the background or the arguments that we none-too-legitimate interim executive in the mean time, have had on the decisions that underlie the order; I would have been far from satisfactory. From all those suspect that the influx of people into this Room is not points of view, this is a good decision. to hear this debate but is for the next business. My only concern is that there will be 123 members. I Before anyone teases me about it, I should offer have just received news that the Government of the that, on future legislation, if I protest about reserve Czech Republic, which hold the EU presidency, have just powers held by the Secretary of State, this could well fallen. It occurred on a vote of 101 out of 200 members be an instance held up of why they are sometimes of the Czech Parliament. If 200 MPs can represent the necessary. whole of the Czech Republic, an EU member state, In the debate in the Commons, my honourable then the figure of 123 for Cornwall is perhaps rather friend the Member for Falmouth and Camborne asked large. However, I recognise entirely that the Government for the Minister’s comments. They were not given, and accepted the recommendations of the local authority. I ask the Minister here to comment on what decisions Those are purely my personal views. took place regarding Cornwall between the Boundary Committee and the Electoral Commission. She asked Although I accept the Minister’s explanation, there what reasons it accepted as decisive in giving carte were a number of clear clerical errors in the initial blanche approval to the proposals. If the Minister has boundary review that could have been put right. There anything she can say on that, I would be grateful. are a couple of anomalies, particularly in north Cornwall, and I regret that they were not put right. However, all On the other order, I ask about the position in the boundaries—into which parish councillors in Bedfordshire, where the shadow executive is to continue particular have put so much work with their as a member of the new council’s executive until the recommendations—can be put right during the term June election. What happens to the other things that of office and can be made perfect, if these things ever go on in that interregnum period? In particular, are are perfect, by the time of the next elections. overview and scrutiny arrangements in place—one would expect there to be arrangements to hold the The noble Lord mentioned Devon. Although it is executive to account if executive powers continue—or nothing to do with this order, I would plead with the do they have to hold their fire until after the election? If Government not to have another unitary authority as it is the latter, I suppose they will be holding to account small as some of the existing ones in the traditional, people who may no longer be in an equivalent position. historic Devon area, and to make Devon outside The noble Lord, Lord Bates, mentioned pension Plymouth and Torbay one unitary authority. Neither funds. They are topical, given that we are hearing the business community nor possibly anybody outside suggestions that there may be shortfalls in certain the City of Exeter itself can understand why a second places. I was interested to see that the pension funds option, an enlarged Exeter, is still on the table, because have been vested in the outgoing councils, if I may put it just would not work. But that is for another day. it that way. I assume that that is the case, as they are to vest in the new authorities. I had thought that there Baroness Andrews: I am grateful for the welcome would be separate pension trustees rather than vesting given by noble Lords opposite. I think that we would in the authorities themselves. I hope the Minister can all agree that nothing is perfect in the restructuring of GC 207 Local Government Order 2009[25 MARCH 2009] Systematics Taxonomy GC 208 local government; we have empirical and historical to changes in structure. Here we are talking about evidence to show that. I am sorry that the noble Lord, electoral boundaries, but I acknowledge that he wanted Lord Bates, was not part of our debates two years ago to put his point on the record. on the 2007 Act. I am sure that we would have some On the questions raised by the noble Baroness, very lively debates around his perspective. Lady Hamwee, and the issue that a Member for a I am conscious that a large and lively body is Cornish constituency, Julia Goldsworthy, drew attention waiting to debate a fascinating report, so I shall make to, we did not discuss adjusting the boundaries with my remarks as swiftly as I can and try to pick up some eithertheBoundaryCommitteeortheElectoralCommission. rather detailed points raised especially by the noble Even if those discussions had taken place, it would Lord. If he will forgive me, I shall not rehearse any of have been quite wrong, as I said, for the Government the arguments that we had about the merits of moving to try to adjust the electoral division boundaries on the to unitary status, nor shall I pick up most of the basis of representations, because they would have been comments about the Merits Committee. However, I parti pris. It is not a simple decision based on local shall come back to some of the things that he said agreement; there must be objective criteria, concerns about restructuring as a whole. about electoral equality and community identity, and effective and convenient local government. I hope that In relation to the specific arguments, the name of that will satisfy the noble Baroness. Durham council has exercised a lot of people. Under The noble Baroness also asked what happens during the order the council could choose to call itself Durham the interregnum in terms of overview and scrutiny. Council, although we understand that it will call itself Central Bedfordshire will from 1 April be a full council Durham County Council. That is slightly perverse, and will therefore have normal arrangements for its but that is the local choice, which is absolutely fine. I committees, including overview and scrutiny. Bedford have to say that the council tax in Durham will increase Borough Council is a continuing council and therefore by an average of 2.9 per cent, not nearly 5 per cent, its overview and scrutiny arrangements will continue because it ranges from a 1 per cent reduction in between 1 April and the election in June. We debated council tax for the current district of Derwentside to the difference between continuing and full councils an increase of 4.75 per cent in Easington. when we looked at the original arrangements. The point on the ceremonial issues is interesting. The local government pension fund in every case is The parish councils, when they come into being, will vested in the responsible administering local authority. be the authorities which inherit the ceremonial rights. Unlike private pensions, there are no trustees and the It is very much a local decision for the new unitary use of local government pension funds is controlled by council on how it manages that. the superannuation legislation and pensions regulations. Finally, on the political question raised by the We had a good and extremely detailed debate the noble Lord, Lord Bates, the councils in Cheshire are in other evening on port health authorities. The point is agreement that Cheshire West and Chester, which is that they are public authorities which consist either of one council, will hold the pension funds for all local the local authority or a joint board of a number of government employees in Cheshire, so any outstanding local authorities. If they occupy portside hereditaments, difficulties there appear to have been resolved. the same rating arrangements will apply to them as to Motion agreed. anyone else. Again, it will be a matter for decision in each individual case. Cornwall (Electoral Arrangements and The noble Lord mentioned the combining of these Consequential Amendments) Order 2009 elections with the European elections. All the evidence Considered in Grand Committee provided by the electoral authorities suggested that they were perfectly conscious they were handling combined 4.40 pm elections and that they had the resources to deal with Moved By Baroness Andrews them. They were not concerned about the combination That the Grand Committee do report to the of elections in that instance. House that it has considered the Cornwall (Electoral In relation to the River Tweed—we are ranging far Arrangements and Consequential Amendments) Order and wide—we had discussions with the Scotland Office 2009. and will write with details on the nature of those Motion agreed. discussions. As for the quotation from the Minister in the other Systematics and Taxonomy (S&TC place, he was perfectly clear that the approach we are Reports) proposing—elections in June, on the basis of 123 members— Considered in Grand Committee will indeed give the council full democratic legitimacy as soon as possible, which will be from 4 June. 4.41 pm The noble Lord raised issues about the timetable. Moved By Lord Sutherland of Houndwood The Boundary Committee started work immediately That the Grand Committee do consider the reports after Parliament approved the order; it did not waste of the Science and Technology Committee on time. Finally, he raised issues about the Boundary Systematics and Taxonomy: Follow-up (5th Report, Committee’s undertakings on Devon. I am very glad Session 2007-08, HL Paper 162) and Systematics that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, took part in this and Taxonomy Follow-up: Government Response (First debate, given his role in Cornwall. That order related Report, HL Paper 58) GC 209 Systematics Taxonomy[LORDS] Systematics Taxonomy GC 210

Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: In introducing this tourists in Trafalgar Square. How does he do this? He debate, I pay tribute to those who prepared and published sees in a different way. He provides detailed observations. two previous reports on relevant and related matters: He describes some experiments in breeding. He marshals the late Lord Dainton, whose report was published in his evidence. He offers a hypothesis or two. He even 1992, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, happily explains where his opponents go wrong. And so, a member of this committee and still with us, whose monumentally, he begins to build the intellectual edifice report was published in 2002. It is on those foundations which changed our understanding of the world in that the present report was built, and they were the which we live. The Andy Capps of this world focus on benchmarks by which we measured progress, or the details relevant only to the dual primary purpose lack of it, in government and public sector responses. I which he saw of pigeons—speed and endurance. Darwin am also deeply indebted to the superb team of committee comments that, members, the committee secretariat and our special “they win their prizes by selecting such slight differences, yet they scientific adviser, Professor Geoff Boxshall from the ignore all the general arguments, and refuse to sum up in their Natural History Museum. minds slight differences accumulated during many successive Let us begin at the beginning, with definitions. The generations”. opening paragraph of the report says: So I ask again, why are taxonomy and systematics so important? I have given one example already. One “Taxonomy is the scientific discipline of describing, delimiting and naming organisms, both living and fossil, and systematics is answer is that they lie at the very foundation of our the process of organising taxonomic information about organisms understanding of the natural world, and not only into a logical classification that provides the framework for all because Charles Darwin shows us that in a most comparative studies”. spectacular fashion. For even if, per improbabile—to If I was in any doubt about the need to restate these invent a Latin phrase—he were wrong, it would require definitions clearly, the Word package on my computer a similarly rich cocktail of observation, experiment, prompted me to do so by indicating that it regarded analysis, hypothesis and evidence-based conclusions the word “systematics” as of dubious provenance. even to begin the argument with him. I am tempted to The next question that the report addresses is why add, “Fundamentalists please take note”, but that these skills are important. Consider the case of Charles belongs to a different debate. Darwin, whose 150th anniversary is, as we all know, A rather different answer to the question of importance being widely and royally celebrated this year. Question: lies in a concept which we have all learned to use with what do Charles Darwin and Andy Capp have in respect—biodiversity. We have come to understand common? Answer: a fascination with pigeons. For more fully the importance of the variety to be found in Andy Capp the fascination had to do with their racing the natural world and the complex interrelations within capacities. In fact, had they been contemporaries, they that variety. I recently read with delight of the fact that might well have met, for Darwin tells us that, Scotland—it was not because it was Scotland; it was “I have associated with several eminent fanciers, and have been just a good example I happened to have to hand—has permitted to join two of the London Pigeon Clubs”. amazing biodiversity: 10 species of reptiles and There is a thought to tempt the imagination—a meeting amphibians; 63 species of mammals; 242 species of between Darwin and Andy Capp. I wonder how David birds; 240 species of fish; 20,000 species of plants and Attenborough would have handled that one. fungi; 24,800 species of invertebrates; and, at an estimate, 40,000 species of virus bacteria and protozoa. I dare To return to the original point, Darwin tells us in say some noble Lords in this Room could correct me the first chapter of The Origin of Species thatitis on the specific numbers, but I was simply staggered always best to study some special group. His chosen and amazed. How do we know this? Because we have example, “after deliberation”, was domestic pigeons. in our society the skills and techniques of taxonomy One might even say that the mighty edifice that we and systematics. have come to know variously as “natural selection” or “evolution” was based initially on a minute and detailed Of course, a fundamental and important question study of what we all see daily in Trafalgar Square. But, follows: does it matter that we know this? The answer of course, the difference is between how we see and is a resounding yes, for many reasons. The big reason how Darwin sees. is that changes in biodiversity can be either consequences or harbingers of climate change. Equally important, We see grey, sometimes intrusive birds whose aerial therefore, is to enhance even further our ability to gifts are to be avoided. Darwin saw and was “astonished” measure changes in biodiversity, and that requires the by the variety of breeds—the carrier, the short-faced skills of taxonomy and systematics. tumbler, the common tumbler, the runt, the barb, the pouter, the turbit, the Jacobin, the trumpeter, the The implications of these measurements for food laugher, the fantail, not to mention, supply and safety are central to our capacity as a race, let alone as a society, to prepare for that change. The “several other less distinct breeds (which) might be specified”. absence of bees and butterflies, of which we heard He goes on to say that, something last summer and the summer before it, will “at least a score of pigeons might be chosen, which, if shown to affect my crops of fruit and vegetables, but their an ornithologist … would certainly be ranked by him as well-defined continued presence has much greater significance than species”, that—ultimately, the capacity of the human race to but not, he adds, as “the same genus”. feed itself. And so, in nine beautifully lucid pages in the opening If changes in biodiversity have such potential gravity, chapter of his great book, Darwin distinguishes his the importance of the study of taxonomy and systematics interest in pigeons from those of Andy Capp and the is beyond question. For coherent thought and therefore GC 211 Systematics Taxonomy[25 MARCH 2009] Systematics Taxonomy GC 212 policy preparedness in such matters, the measurement pleased by it. In their response, the Government imply and analysis of change in the biodiversity of our an understanding of the importance of biodiversity-related community is essential. For that, we need taxonomists topics in schools. However, lest the Minister believe and practitioners of systematic biology. that he can now relax, I reassure him that there is a I began by setting out the social and economic “can-do-better” coda to this report, and doubtless we reasons for the importance of these disciplines, because will hear much of that in the debate that follows. I realise that I am in a political context and utilitarian I highlight two examples to which, for various arguments are important. The disciplines are essential reasons, I attach particular importance in that regard. for our survival as a human race. Other important The first is the rejection of our recommendation that arguments will be elaborated by my colleagues who there should be a lead department in this area. We speak after me. I shall briefly mention just two by way thought hard about that, and we had many arguments of an amuse-bouche for the wider discussion that will for and against. We came to the conclusion that a lead follow. department would enhance our capacity significantly First, sheer intellectual curiosity about the natural in important respects. The policy needs in this area are world is of value in itself. From a utilitarian point of great. Significant developments of policy will be required view, that almost always has to be the forerunner of the whether we, or the Government, like it or not. Their technologies and understandings which change our commitment to one of their central focuses being society for the better. Sheer intellectual curiosity is a climate change indicates that, for the reasons I have driving point. The pursuit of such curiosity must be already given, a lead needs to be taken, rather than based, as it was in Darwin’s case, on observation, things falling between the cracks. That is at the core of experiment, analysis and evidence-based argument, our recommendation and our disappointment that it and on learning to see as a taxonomist and as a has not been accepted. We see that there are dangers systematician. It must be based on taxonomy and to our traditional strengths in the supply of sufficient systematics. numbers of well trained people in these fields. I advance a further argument. In this country, due My second example also perhaps relates to the need in part to our adventurous history during the past 200 for a lead department. We noted that the notion of or 300 years, we have three of the most important, co-ordination, or joined-up government, as it was relevant collections in the world: in the Royal Botanic once called, was not being fully exercised. A good Gardens at Kew, in the Natural History Museum and example is an apparent failure on the part of the in the Royal Botanic Garden in Edinburgh. These government response properly to consult the regime in collections must be curated, maintained and expanded; Scotland. The evidence for that is a short and rather we have an intellectual as well as a moral responsibility pathetic paragraph—I speak now as a Scot—that to do so. Other societies, some of which were once our apparently summarises its response to what we believe colonies, are often the source of these collections. They is quite a significant report. That is underlined by the will want to use them as reference points for understanding fact that one of the three great national collections is changes in their own regional biodiversity. Whether we in Edinburgh, and therefore significantly the responsibility like it or not, we are the curators; we are responsible for of the current Scottish Parliament. There was a lack the maintenance and expansion of those collections. of joined-upness there, which was a pity. I hope that we can do better next time. I have given two examples—there are many others—of I look forward to the contributions that are to why the disciplines are important. I turn briefly to how come, including the Minister’s response. I beg to move. we assess government awareness and policy in these matters. First, I acknowledge and thank the Government, whose response indicates acceptance of a number of 4.58 pm our central recommendations. There has been significant Lord Haskel: I join the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, progress following the reports of 1992 and 2002, and in thanking our clerks and our special adviser for all the signs are that, with the help of our continued their hard work. The noble Lord reminded us that prompting—and that is a manifesto of the Science your Lordships’ committee has been concerned about and Technology Committee—there will be further the state of systematics and taxonomy since 1992. progress from 2009. Since then we have been bringing this concern to the I shall give some examples of acceptances and attention of the Government by reports, follow-up moving forward. NERC will commission a study which reports, correspondence and debate. Frankly, we are will deal, I hope, with our concerns about numbers of not sure if the decline has been halted or reversed. future scientists in this area—so there will be hard Have committee members been banging their heads evidence. NERC and the Natural History Museum up against a brick wall, or are we getting somewhere have agreed to study further the national priorities by wearing away the stone with a constant drip, that we should formulate in this area. BBSRC and drip, drip? NERC will provide funds for the development of a I apologise to my academic colleagues, who are road map for delivery of internet-based taxonomy. I probably giving me nought out of 10 on my report am happy to say on a very specific point that our pleas card for mixing my metaphors. I agree with the noble concerning the needs of the fungal reference collection Lord that we are getting somewhere—but my metaphors at Kew have been heard and, in part, answered. are mixed because the messages are mixed, as are the There are a number of further positive responses messages from the Government. The greatest mixed that will doubtless be discussed by my colleagues, one message of all is the assurance that Defra will monitor of which I will mention because I am particularly the ecosystem. That requires the expertise of taxonomists, GC 213 Systematics Taxonomy[LORDS] Systematics Taxonomy GC 214

[LORD HASKEL] and taxonomy. I can record with some pride that I am but nobody is sure if there are going to be a sufficient the only person, I think, who has served on all three number to carry out the work. We are told that the committees. I know that others present gave evidence NERC will commission a study this year to find out in 1992, but I suspect that I am the only survivor of the number and trends. Hopefully, we will then know. the committee, so at least I represent historical continuity. We are all agreed that web-based taxonomy is having, I am certainly familiar with some of the issues that are and will have, an enormous impact on taxonomy pleaded on behalf of the systematics community, and services and knowledge. We believe that a road map indeed with some of the criticisms, which should be for delivering internet-based taxonomy should be acknowledged, that sometimes the taxonomic community developed. But the Government are referring to does not always sell its wares as effectively as the user biodiversity data, whereas the committee wants to use community would wish. the internet as a means of identification. Is that a The 1992 report chaired by Lord Dainton was well mixed message or just confusion? timed. That was the year we signed the Convention on During our debate with the Government there has Biological Diversity at the Earth Summit at Rio. With been an exchange of views about the management and that, we assumed responsibilities formally—to which I culture of science within the Government. The noble hope we had already committed ourselves both nationally Lord, Lord Sutherland, explained the importance of and internationally—for conservation of the diversity understanding environmental sustainability. This is of species and to put policies in place, both nationally why taxonomy and systematics should be firmly in a and internationally, to achieve just that. We see that powerful lead government department, such as DIUS—a working through the system at the moment. We department strong enough to halt its decline. At present, should give credit to the Government—to successive though, the responsibility for systematics and taxonomy Governments in fact—for having led the way in many is spread over many departments. ways on national conservation policies. They have not always been effective—that is the nature of things—but Again, the response we get is mixed. We are told at least a big subject has been addressed. that the Government’s role in science is to set the overarching strategy, and it is left to the research Since 1992 the agenda has changed. As we heard councils and others to decide how research money is from the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, it has become spent, yet we are told that occasionally cases arise more immediate. Climate change was obviously not where Ministers rightly provide strategic direction. Is the issue in 1992 that it is today. There was concern that a message to try harder to persuade the Government about deforestation, which has certainly increased; that systematics and taxonomy are of sufficient importance land-use change; overexploitation of natural resources; for Ministers to give strategic direction? Or is it a and the limited availability of water, not just for our message saying, “Don’t talk to us, talk to the research own purposes but to sustain habitats, particularly councils and others”? those that rely on water for their nature. In all these areas systematic biology has a role, some would say a I come back to my original question: are our concerns fundamental role. After all, you cannot conserve being acknowledged and acted upon or are they being something unless you understand it. However, we have ignored? Our concerns are clear—recruitment, funding, to acknowledge that taxonomy and systematics is only governance, availability and distribution of knowledge— one of the scientific disciplines that has to be brought but the response is mixed. Yes, there will be a study of to bear on these issues, and it is there to complement, numbers and trends; yes, there will be dialogue on to provide underpinning and to provide the fundamental priorities and some work on distribution. Very good, understanding of the contribution of other scientific but is it enough? approaches which are critical. I am a lay member of this committee. I do not have I must declare two interests: I chair the trustees at any special scientific knowledge. But our report reflects Kew and the partners board of the Living with the thoughts of many well informed people who are Environmental Change programme. I mention that concerned that if we do not boost the taxonomic programme in particular because it is mentioned at community, both professional and voluntary, then we paragraph 3.21 of the government response as one of will miss out on some important aspects of environmental the interdisciplinary programmes that will determine sustainability through ignorance or neglect. what issues taxonomy and systematics can contribute I am an unashamed supporter of this Government. to. That is absolutely right. Living with Environmental I know that the economic crisis dominates government Change is an umbrella programme straddling all the thinking at the moment, as it should. But fairly soon research councils and a number of government politics will be moving into election mode, a time departments, including the Environment Agency and when many issues are raised and when perhaps climate many others. It is all about collaboration on meeting change will again come to the top of the agenda. these environmental changes, not just climate change. During that debate, it would be nice for the Government I suspect that taxonomy and systematics will indeed to be able to say yes, we listened to your concerns make a contribution to just about every programme, about ecosystem services and have done something whether it is to do with the environment and human about it. There is nothing mixed about that message. health, the depletion of natural resources, land-use change, and much else. It is one contribution alongside 5.03 pm others. The Earl of Selborne: I join with others in thanking As the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, reminded our chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, for us—I am sure that this is absolutely correct—whether proposing that we return to the subject of systematics we like it or not, we have inherited a historical obligation. GC 215 Systematics Taxonomy[25 MARCH 2009] Systematics Taxonomy GC 216

We have these national collections. These are the type with horror, is that there is never an end to it. However, specimens, the voucher specimens, for countries, not there has to be some determination of priorities. We just our colonies, all around the world. You have to can probably list all the plants and vertebrates. In refer to these specimens if you are to determine the 2010, we are due to do what Darwin asked for—that nature of your diversity and the extent to which it is is, to produce the definitive list of plants in the world. changing. Indeed, the astonishingly effective modern It will be a draft list, not a definitive one, but at last a techniques of DNA sequencing and the like still ultimately list is coming out. However, no one is going to attempt rely on these voucher specimens to determine the type to do that for invertebrates or nematodes and many specimens. Whether we like it or not, the Natural other such species. Therefore, when you come to descriptive History Museum, Kew and Edinburgh have not just a taxonomy, you clearly have to determine priorities and moral obligation but—something rather stronger—a this is the difficult area. duty to curate those specimens as well as add to them. The other problem, which is always being addressed That is what is happening. With the increased interest by the taxonomic community, with perfect justification, arising from the Convention on Biological Diversity, is that taxonomy in universities has melted away, or at most member states which have signed that agreement least there is very little left. Our three reports seem to are progressing well on preparing their conservation suggest that the United Kingdom is particularly bad plans and that obviously requires an inventory of the in this respect, but it is also true of Europe and other habitats they value most. That means that we get countries. Therefore, the obligation to do training and specimens coming back to the Natural History Museum, research in taxonomy falls more and more on the Kew or Edinburgh. The speed of accessions is increasing national centres of excellence: the Natural History and it is actually a problem keeping up. It is a question Museum, Kew, Edinburgh and, indeed, regional not only of curation but of working on these specimens. universities. That, again, is an inescapable fact, although Modern molecular morphological phylogenetics, which I should not give the impression that no systematics is is determining the evolutionary relationship of these going on in universities. The modern techniques to species, is advancing enormously fast with the new which I referred—relying on DNA sequencing and techniques to which I referred. the like—clearly does happen in universities and is a If we are to measure how successful taxonomy and growth area. systematics are in serving the user community, we have So we need appropriately qualified specialists to to ask not just whether we are continuing to collect carry out this inventory and these conservation assessments and identify new specimens or curate existing specimens in areas to be agreed as priorities. Someone has to but, much more practically and more importantly, determine priorities. There is always an individual whether this information is useful. Can people access who determines for himself what he or she wants to it? Is it relevant to the sort of studies that are arising work on, but that is not good enough. There has to be from our obligations under the Convention on Biological international collaboration; we cannot all duplicate, Diversity and other international obligations? and we must certainly think of ourselves as Europeans, The measure of output is quite a challenge, and this and perhaps as a much wider community. As has been is where I think we have to ensure that the taxonomic said, it is essential to embrace these exciting new community—led, one would hope, by a government practices in the web-based environment. That is much department, but at least by a champion within easier for new accessions—you can put them on to the government—has a sort of checklist from time to web because you collect them in a form that is immediately time. What is the product of taxonomy and systematics? available. It is much harder when 250 years or more of Is it helpful? Does the user community find it timely material has to be digitised, put on the web and made and relevant? Are we developing a better understanding accessible. That is essential. The report says that the of the role of individual species in ecosystems? From taxonomic community needs more money for this. In that, does a prediction flow of which habitats are practice, there are charities around the world that we vulnerable? It should. Is there a determination of rely on—American charities and one or two others. which management policies would be most appropriate The sums are enormous and it will take a long time for these ecosystems, and a formulation of conservation for even the priority areas to be fully digitised, cross- policies and restoration policy programmes? I am referenced and accessible, but that must be determined delighted to say that, as a result of the seed bank as a priority. programme that Kew introduced at the turn of the millennium, we are now seeing this part of the collection The way in which these issues have shot up the being used for restoration ecology around the world. agenda arises from the consequences of the Convention It is a great success for those who had the vision 12 or on Biological Diversity. I know that the Addison rules more years ago to start that very ambitious programme. prevent me from speaking in any sense for Kew; therefore, I cannot thank the Government for their I have referred to the great advances in recent years support on mycology, but were I allowed to do so I in phylogeny—that is, determining how organisms are certainly would have wished to. I remind the Committee evolutionarily related. I do not think that there is any to what extent mycology has collapsed. In the 1992 doubt that the integration of phylogeny into other report, we pointed out that plants and fungi go together areas of biological research has become standard. in many communities; you really cannot study one However, the area where there is continual debate—and without the other, certainly when it comes to restoration. the written evidence is in the report—is what is usually But mycology is in dire straits, more or less, as it was in described as “descriptive taxonomy”. The problem, 1992, and I am delighted that there has been some which causes people to throw their hands up in the air temporary support. GC 217 Systematics Taxonomy[LORDS] Systematics Taxonomy GC 218

[THE EARL OF SELBORNE] always eager to help—and self-satisfied bureaucratic Why does the Science and Technology Committee rigidities which are resentfully dismissive of any call keep on returning to this issue? Some people must for change. think that we are obsessed with it. The noble Lord, The saga that has already been sketched a couple of Lord Sutherland, made it very clear how central it is to times about the taxonomy and systematics Select so many policies. If there remains a concern, it is that Committee 1 in 1992, Select Committee 2 in 2002 and because this is an area which can and should contribute Select Committee 3 in 2008 has interesting examples to any number of scientific endeavours to underpin of the best and the worst. That brings me to the policy, it is for the taxonomic community to demonstrate wonder and hope that the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, effectively what its role is, how it can contribute and will still be around for taxonomy and systematics how it can ensure that it is focused on the areas of Select Committee 4 in four years’ time. greatest priority. It is reasonable for the Government and the research councils—not just NERC—to engage Amusingly, my noble friend Lord Krebs and I in a debate with the systematics community to make it appeared together as a duo on the 1992 committee. clear what is expected and to measure the outputs so Lord Dainton’s inquiry had good outcomes, partly, that some sort of clarity is achieved. At the moment it but by no means wholly, because my noble friend Lord is fragmented and, as the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, Krebs shortly afterwards took over as the chief executive pointed out, there seems to be a lack of adequate of the Natural Environmental Research Council. The consultation between government departments in 2002 inquiry of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, formulating the first response—at least as far as the also revisited many of the things that had been promised Royal Botanic Gardens, Edinburgh, was concerned. but had not been done and had another go at things that had not been accepted. There has again been There is a live issue here: we keep on challenging the some progress. From what we have heard and what has taxonomic community to make itself relevant, to be been described—I shall not revisit this in any detail—there focused and to underpin. It points out that because of have been some good things and some bad things, and a lack of recruitment, training and research, some I shall speak to two particular bad things. areas of its discipline is declining, although not all. However, before I do so, let me reinforce some of That is why, ultimately, an overall review would be the good things, but in a shaded way for one of them. enormously helpful to that community. The NERC is to commission a study of the state of taxonomy, including the number of taxonomists, trends, 5.19 pm job openings and so on. This goes back to 1992, when it was called for but not done. This prompted me at the Lord May of Oxford: I join with others in thanking time to get together with Kevin Gaston in the Natural all the committee members—particularly the noble History Museum to produce a paper in Nature on the Lord, Lord Sutherland, for choosing the topic and taxonomy of taxonomists. Part of the fault is that the providing excellent leadership—our outstanding secretariat taxonomy community is not as introspective as it and our adviser, Professor Geoff Boxshall, FRS. could perhaps productively be and, shamelessly to I mention FRS because, as will emerge in my remarks, digress, it is a community where roughly one-third of one of the problems we have encountered is a feeling it works on vertebrates, particularly birds and mammals; that much of descriptive taxonomy is not a sexy roughly one-third of it works on plants of all kinds; subject. On the other hand, it is worth emphasising and roughly one third of it works on invertebrates, the that the Royal Society, which is often thought of as a small things that arguably run the world. In fact, if rather stuffy institution, has elected in recent years you use the number of species, both known and probably quite a few taxonomists and systematists, not all molecular there but not yet known, in relation to the workforce, people but many classical people who would be at the workforce is out of whack with its proper job home in a 19th-century institution. We need to recognise description by a factor of 10 vertebrates to plants and that. a factor of 100 invertebrates to vertebrates. I digress, I begin with a digression that will circle back to but that is a very welcome study. relevance. On a personal note, I find one of the The conjunction between the Natural Environmental extraordinarily interesting features of the House of Research Council and the Natural History Museum Lords Select Committees—no other country’s upper to convene a dialogue on priorities for the UK systematics house can say this—is the way we can put together, community is praiseworthy, as is Defra’s recognition partly but by no means exclusively through the Cross of its proper obligation to bring the fungal collection Benches, individuals with the highest levels of expertise, from CABI into Kew. The commitment by NERC and authority and standing in the subject under study. At SERC to web-based taxonomy has been welcomed, its best, this leads to a harmonious engagement between but, even here is a foreshadowing of the negative civil servants and Ministers, who can take advantage points on which I shall now dwell, because absent in of constructive reviews to reinforce strengths and to those plans is a commitment to the associated taxonomy address weaknesses. It is like the visiting committees qua taxonomy; as, for example, simply in online that well run universities bring in every couple of identification tools. years to take a critical view of departments. At its The first of the two hobbyhorses that I wish to ride, best, I have had the pleasure and privilege of being I shall ride briefly, and it pertains to the Department involved in some things; on the other hand, at its for International Development. Our committee worst, you tend to get a clash between independent recommended in its report, expert opinion—which, admittedly, can sometimes shade “digitisation projects that focus on the biodiversity conservation into independent expert opinionatedness, but which is and sustainability needs of developing countries”. GC 219 Systematics Taxonomy[25 MARCH 2009] Systematics Taxonomy GC 220

This was sent to DfID’s address. The recommendation capabilities, which are mainly its own institutions. is a paraphrase of DfID’s stated priorities; that is, the That is a bit of a change from when John Cadogan sustainability needs of developing countries. In a tour was head of the Office of Science and Technology. de force of cognitive dissonance, DfID’s response was Our aim then was that half the money should go on to reject that recommendation on the ground that it responsive mode. That means asking the best people did not match its priorities. I would ask the luckless to say what the best proposals are. The notion that Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Drayson, whose fault they have to be judged against some simple-minded it is not, whether that is one of the things that he notion of how you do science by testing hypotheses is would undertake to address in connection with DfID. just plain batty. It is ignorant and it is stupid. I have The response was a little puzzling, although—I shamelessly lived four decades of lucky life in a variety of areas, and probably improperly digress again—I half suspect and there is no recipe for doing science. Certainly an that it might be a hangover from agitated interaction important ingredient is just doing descriptive things. between DfID and the Royal Society five years ago, In conclusion, I seriously hope that the rejection of when I was its president and Clare Short was the the idea of a lead department responsible for co-ordinating Secretary of State, over the department’s plans essentially the various needs that we will hear more about will be to dismantle long-standing research collaboration with yet one more time revisited and that abrupt rejection developing countries in Africa, partly on the ridiculous overturned. grounds that such tertiary education projects in countries that were in crying need of primary education were 5.33 pm elitist and therefore taboo. That disappeared with Clare Short’s tenancy of that office, and Hilary Benn Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior: My Lord Chairman, quickly righted it, but I suspect that in some dark may I have your permission to speak seated in my corner of DfID is the person who rejected that wheelchair? recommendation. There are two more serious, overarching themes. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness One of them has been referred to already, although it Gould of Potternewton): But of course. will not prevent me revisiting it; namely, the lack of a lead department to co-ordinate addressing issues which Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior: Thank you very involve in various combinations, at the very least, six much. government departments: DIUS, DfID, Defra, DCMS, I join with others to congratulate the chairman of which funds the research in the Natural History Museum, the committee, the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, and the FCO, which is responsible for overseas territories—I the supporting staff, whom I found particularly helpful. could speak also about those, but I shall let them I was very pleased to be invited by the chairman to go—and Research Councils UK, which, when I had serve as a co-opted member of a committee on systematics tenancy of the Office of Science and Technology, was and taxonomy, as in my early scientific days, I started effectively a ring-fenced entity, separate from the DTI. off as a systematist interested in taxonomy.My particular The second of my concerns is the seeming lack of interest was in metazoan invertebrates and their role in awareness of the nature of the subject of taxonomy disease, particularly nematodes and transmitting and systematics, much less of its current health, within arthropods. Research Councils UK more generally. Our worry The committee concluded that systematics and about that is expressed quite trenchantly in the report. taxonomy are of fundamental importance to our Particular emphasis was laid on the Natural Environment understanding of the natural world and, I would add, Research Council, whose approach we found “confused”, to a full understanding of the threats of pathogens, but there is a more general failure of co-ordination in their transmission and their control. These pathogens Research Councils UK. are at the periphery of our country and will come out I return to the theme with which Professor Sutherland in the tropics we know not when. began by quoting from an article written by Dr Sandy The committee also concluded that disciplines such Knapp in the magazine of the Linnean Society of as sequencing and taxonomy were in decline in the London, in which she pointed out that the scientific United Kingdom and that if that decline were allowed world was different in the day of Charles Darwin. In to continue, there would be serious consequences for those days, it was natural history. Observation and the country’s ability to deliver a host of policy aims, description were very much a part of mainstream including disease identification and surveillance of science, whereas today there is often a feeling that exotic threats, and an effective response to climate biology means work in laboratories and testing hypotheses. change, wildlife biology, and so on. We said that the We encountered that in an explicit quote from the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills Natural Environment Research Council, which said in should take a lead role, a recommendation which was response to our worries: not accepted. In particular, the report identified fungal “Research proposals including classical taxonomic approaches taxonomic problems. Fortunately, that has now been may have the best chance of success if they take account of … the attended to, at least partially. My noble friend Lord hypothesis testing science that typifies responsive mode grants”. Selborne has a strong association with Kew and, no In more detail, NERC spends only about a quarter doubt, will be guiding the work there. of its money on responsive mode, responding to the Another area where taxonomic development is hard best proposal—blue skies; about a quarter on proposals hit is entomology. An excellent article in the February directed in particular areas, not one of which encompasses issue of Biologist by Dr Simon Leather of Imperial taxonomy and systematics; and half on national College London gives a succinct analysis of the future GC 221 Systematics Taxonomy[LORDS] Systematics Taxonomy GC 222

[LORD SOULSBY OF SWAFFHAM PRIOR] In my opening comments, I mentioned my interest of entomology, while one of his colleagues has written in nematodes, which includes parasitic as well as free-living bluntly that British entomology may be on the verge of and soil parasitic nematodes. Often, soil nematodes extinction. The decline has been progressive since the are included with arthropods—wrongly, of course; 1970s. Although there was only one entomological nevertheless one has to put up with it. However, as department in the United Kingdom at that time and with arthropods, little is known about the free-living one BSc entomology degree, at Imperial College, seven nematodes, except where they cause plant diseases, UK universities offered a degree in agricultural zoology, such as the genus Caenorhabditis, which has been essentially specialising in entomology and parasitology, used at the Laboratory of Molecular Biology in including plant nemotology.Now there are no entomology Cambridge in the development of a vast understanding departments, no undergraduate entomology degrees of cell biology. As with many other invertebrates, their and only one Master of Science degree in entomology, importance could be crucial, especially where climate which is at Imperial College. Typically, students registered change may cause changes in their populations and for zoology or biology degrees will cover the whole of also in relation to their vector potential for viruses and invertebrates in 12 lectures. other pathogens. Hitherto, much of the enthusiasm for entomology I have pointed out on more than one occasion that has been taken up by amateurs, who have often been with parasitic nematodes, which cause disease in man parsons and other men of the cloth who have studied and animals, the free-living stages that occur in the part time. Some of us will be familiar with the natural soil vastly outnumber the parasitic forms that occur philosophy or natural biology of so-and-so in so-and-so inside animals or humans. We know so little about village. Here, too, there has been a marked 35 per cent them but suspect much of them. An example of this decline in membership of the Amateur Entomological suspicion, although we do not know it for certain, is Society. their role in the genetic exchange of anti-parasitic resistance between the parasitic stages that occur in When exotic disease strikes this country, as it has the soil. quite recently with bluetongue, there is a scramble for experts who can identify the transmitting insects—the Having been somewhat negative about science and Culicoides, or midges, as they are often called—to the support for science, I am pleased to acknowledge assess the vector potential of the various strains of the what I consider to be an innovative project on the gene midge. Although we do a reasonable job, we have to sequencing of Caenorhabditis in California, USA, in rely somewhat on people on the continent of Europe relation to these free-living forms of parasitic nematodes. to help us out. The number of species in the phylum It will provide a strong base for diagnosis, surveillance, Arthropodium is massive. Many of them are still the development of anti-parasitic compounds and a unknown and likely to remain so until we have many better understanding of drug resistance and vaccine more people looking at them in detail. The dearth of production. As I said, much basic information has entomologists and the lack of entomological training been gleaned on cell replication biology by the study are an important issue. That should be compared with of these free-living nematodes at the Laboratory of the vertebrate situation where, with few exceptions, Molecular Biology in Cambridge. the fauna is well known, well studied and well written up. The downstream application of the genome sequence How do we compare with other countries? The data will provide a powerful tool for the way in which country that I know best is the United States, where I we do science in the field. Especially, it will provide worked for 15 years. Now, with homeland security enhanced preparedness for potential exotic invaders. I developments, it is keen to develop science across the have often said that the price of freedom from exotic board, including invertebrate science. For example, in infections, which is likely to increase with climate the United States there are 16 universities with departments change, is constant vigilance with regard to what is of entomology, offering Bachelor of Science and Master going on. For constant vigilance, a stronger base of of Science degrees in entomology, and an additional systematics and taxonomy than we have at present is 22 universities that offer entomological minors. needed. In the United States, the major funding agencies—the National Institutes of Health and the National Science 5.45 pm Foundation—are aware of the importance of entomology, Lord Krebs: I, too, thank my noble friend Lord and grant applications to these bodies in entomology, Sutherland of Houndwood for his excellent chairmanship for example, are given the same scrutiny as other of the committee and for introducing the debate. I also proposals via the section on tropical medicine and extend my thanks to the committee secretariat and our parasitology, of which I declare an interest, having special adviser, Professor Boxshall. As has been mentioned, been the chairman of that study group several years I have been involved with the story of the Select ago. Additionally, the US army and US navy have Committee’s interest in taxonomy since the Dainton their funded research programmes, although I understand report, although I do not quite have the pedigree of that the navy is closing down its research facilities. the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, who has served on all The problems in the United Kingdom are not unique three Select Committees. in Europe. For example, in France concern has been Following the 1992 Dainton report, I prepared a expressed about the shortage of medical and veterinary separate report for the Natural Environment Research entomologists. At present, there are approximately Council on taxonomy. I then became the chief executive 100 such people, of whom half are over 50. That of NERC and had the pleasure of implementing my indicates that recruitment is not as good as it should be. own recommendations, which included the introduction GC 223 Systematics Taxonomy[25 MARCH 2009] Systematics Taxonomy GC 224 of a taxonomy training initiative. I should also mention vertebrates, including you and me. It has many blocks an interest as chairman of the Natural History Museum of genes in common with humans, a phenomenon in Oxford. known as synteny. I re-read my 1992 report just before the debate and As we have heard, taxonomy is not only intellectually the questions that we are raising now have a depressing exciting, it has many practical applications. Let me ring of familiarity about them. It is almost as though provide just one instance. We know from taxonomic there has been a dialogue of the deaf between the and phylogenetic studies based on gene sequences that Select Committee and the taxonomy community on the virus that causes AIDS, HIV, has been transmitted the one hand, and the Government on the other. I to man more than once from chimpanzees and sooty hope that the Government’s ears are open and listening mangabeys, and first became established in humans in today. Kinshasa in the middle of the last century. Taxonomy In my contribution I will refer to three topics, some of the AIDS virus today provides essential information of which have been covered but bear repeating. First, I for public health issues such as the spread of drug-resistant will make a brief comment on why taxonomy matters; mutations and the introduction of new strains by secondly, I will refer to the current lack of strategic immigration. Taxonomy of the AIDS virus also proved vision in the UK; and, thirdly, I will speak about the the innocence of Bulgarian nurses who were under a role of regional museums. death sentence in Libya for allegedly transmitting the virus in a children’s hospital. In his novel The Magic Mountain, Thomas Mann If taxonomy is so interesting and so important, wrote: what is the problem that has led the Select Committee “You ask what is the use of classification, arrangement, to hold three inquiries in the past 17 years? The systematization. I answer you: order and simplification are the problem with taxonomy, in my view, is that it is an first steps toward the mastery of a subject—the actual enemy is the unknown”. underpinning science for a whole host of other branches of biology. Indeed, no experimental or observational Taxonomy is the science of bringing order and scientific paper in biology can be published without simplification to the bewildering diversity of the natural reference to taxonomy, since the author must refer to world. Indeed, Carl Linnaeus, the Swedish botanist the species that he or she has studied. The fact that and father of taxonomy, liked to say: taxonomy is underpinning means that too many of the “Deus creavit, Linnaeus disposuit”, funders of research take it for granted or believe that it which translates as, has all been done. However, as we have heard, taxonomy is by no means a completed task but a rapidly changing “God created, Linnaeus organized”. branch of biology. In my research career, the group of Linnaeus based his classification on observable species that I have spent many decades of my life anatomical characteristics of plants and animals. While studying, the Paridae or titmice, are now designated as many present day taxonomists still rely on such features, belonging to different genera, whereas 30 years ago molecular taxonomy, which relies on gene sequences, when I started out on my research they all belonged to has, to a substantial degree, eclipsed the more traditional one genus. methods of determining the relationships among living I repeat, taxonomy is part of the infrastructure that organisms. Increasingly in the future, taxonomy will enables biologists, whatever their field of interest, to be based on gene sequences and be internet-based. carry out and report their work. However, while in This reality should be recognised in any future strategy areas such as space science, particle physics, oceanography for this country. and molecular biology the research councils and the As we heard in the introductory speech of the noble Government accept the need to invest substantial sums Lord, Lord Sutherland, classification reflects the in underpinning infrastructure, this is, sadly, not true evolutionary tree of life. This was famously enunciated of taxonomy. There simply has been and is no strategic in the debate in Oxford on 30 June 1860 between programme of investment in research or training in Bishop Wilberforce and Thomas Henry Huxley when taxonomy.Nor did we detect in our inquiry any associated the Bishop—described on another occasion by Disraeli strategic direction for the subject, although we hope as “unctuous, oleaginous and saponaceous”—asked that as a result of our recommendations that strategic Huxley whether he was descended from a monkey on direction should appear. All the funders of taxonomy his grandmother’s or his grandfather’s side. In the from whom we took evidence said that they were users oft-quoted reply, Huxley said that he was not ashamed of taxonomy, not funders of the underpinning scientific to have a monkey for his ancestor but he would be knowledge. ashamed to be connected with a man who used great We are all users of the roads and the trains, but gifts to obscure the truth. One member of the audience, someone has to take responsibility for building and a certain Lady Brewster, is said to have fainted. maintaining them. The same is true of taxonomy. As Thanks to modern molecular taxonomy, things have we have heard, the situation is exacerbated by the lack moved on. Lady Brewster would surely have fainted of leadership among government departments. Although all over again had she read the Sun headline on 20 June we heard claims of co-ordination, a more honest 2007, “Grandad was an anchovy”. It is pretty unusual and accurate claim would be one of confusion. I hope for the Sun to carry major stories about taxonomy, but that in his response the Minister will assure us that this one was a blockbuster. Gene sequences have shown if we come back to this in five years the situation that an eldritch and unprepossessing fish-like sand- will have changed, there will be a strategic vision for dwelling marine animal called amphioxus is close to the future of taxonomy and there will be a lead the 550 million year-old common ancestor of all government department. GC 225 Systematics Taxonomy[LORDS] Systematics Taxonomy GC 226

[LORD KREBS] “Taxonomy (the science of classification) is often undervalued I turn now to the national and regional taxonomic as a glorified form of filing, with each species in its folder, like a collections. The major centres in the UK for taxonomic stamp in its prescribed place in an album: but taxonomy is a fundamental and dynamic science, dedicated to exploring the work are the natural history museums and botanical causes of relationships and similarities among organisms. gardens. As we have heard, for historical reasons the Classifications are theories about the basis of natural order, not UK has some of the world’s most important, indeed dull catalogues compiled only to avoid chaos”. astounding, taxonomic collections, which serve as reference I hope that the Minister’s reply will both be more than material for researchers all over the world and as a dull catalogue and show how the Government intend places for taxonomic research and education. They to avoid future chaos in their approach to taxonomy. also have—this has not yet been mentioned and I shall elaborate on it in a moment—a major role in public 5.58 pm outreach. I shall give noble Lords some figures. The Natural History Museum in London houses an estimated Baroness Walmsley: It is a great pleasure to start the 70 million specimens, the Royal Botanical Gardens at winding-up speeches at the end of this fascinating Kew well over 6 million, and the national museums debate. As I listened, it occurred to me that, had the and gardens of the devolved countries collectively also Minister not had such an eminent background, he well over 6 million specimens. However, the English might have been slightly intimidated by the galaxy of regional collections are also of great importance. The scientific talent ranged against him today, of which I second largest collection in England is in Oxford, with count myself as very much the most junior. However, more than 6 million specimens in the Natural History I am sure that none of them would dream of using Museum and the Fielding-Druce Herbarium, and their great gifts to obscure the truth, to quote the Cambridge and Manchester also have very large and noble Lord, Lord Krebs. important collections. The committee was very well served by its scientific adviser, Professor Boxshall, its Clerk, Christine Salmon How are these institutions in England funded? Kew Percival, and her team, and its chairman, the noble and the Natural History Museum in London, as we Lord, Lord Sutherland, who today has given me a have already heard, receive grants-in-aid from Defra unique experience, as I never expected to hear Andy and DCMS, but the regional museums do not. Our Capp debated in your Lordships’ House. recommendation 3.29 was that the Government provide continuity of funding for regional museums but the As the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and others have response from DCMS, in my view, was disappointingly said, the Science and Technology Committee seems to vague. I hope that the Minister will confirm to us that return to the issue of systematic and taxonomy with DCMS will indeed provide a guaranteed continuity of monotonous regularity.However, one should not confuse funding for the regional museums in England and for the word “monotonous” with the word “boring”. The the important work that they do. subject matter of the report and this debate is far from boring; indeed, it relates to one of the most fundamental I return, finally, to the role of museums and collections scientific disciplines affecting our ability to survive the in education. Our recommendation 3.28 referred to threat of climate change and to mitigate the effects of the disappearance of taxonomy and biodiversity from man’s activities on the biodiversity of the planet. That the school curriculum. In their positive reply, the is why we keep returning to it. The noble Lord, Lord Government recognised this issue and, among other Krebs, underlined its underpinning role in many scientific things, referred to the role of the Natural History disciplines, and the subtitle of my 2002 report made Museum in London in providing high quality out-of- reference to the fact that it is the science underpinning classroom learning. conservation. Maintaining the biodiversity that this generation I emphasise that, in addition to the Natural History has inherited on our blue and green planet is one of Museum in London, which does a superb job, the our most serious responsibilities. There are those who regional museums also play a key role. I have some think it is easy and we just have to stop doing a lot of illustrative figures for the Natural History Museum in the things we are doing; there are those who think it is Oxford. It is visited by 72 per cent of the primary impossible; and there are those in the middle ground, schools and 94 per cent of the secondary schools in like me, who believe that we can tackle the threat of the local education authority area, and the majority of climate change by making sensible adjustments to our these visiting groups receive a taught session from an lifestyle that will not cause us too much grief nor education officer. More than 400,000 visitors arrived hinder the development of less developed countries, at the museum last year, many of them children, and which have a right to strive to live as comfortably as more than 1 million visitors went to the website, yet we do. the funding for this important work is very precarious. I am sure that similar figures could be produced for We must take action to reduce emissions, of course, the other major regional museums. Again, I hope that but at the same time we must protect the living things the Minister will confirm that the Government are of this planet, living within their carefully balanced committed to continuing their funding for educational ecosystems which are so easily upset. During the past and outreach work in regional, as well as national, 200 to 300 years, man has upset numerous ecosystems museums and collections. to the extent that plants and animals living in them have suffered and even died out because we have either I end with a quotation from the late American destroyed their habitat or modified their climate so biologist and writer, Stephen Jay Gould. In his book much that they cannot survive. Unlike animals, plants Wonderful Life he writes: cannot get up on their legs or their wings and walk or GC 227 Systematics Taxonomy[25 MARCH 2009] Systematics Taxonomy GC 228 fly to the next valley, so there are particular problems very close eye on what happens to the findings of the with plant conservation. Here I declare an interest as NERC report and asks a lot of questions. Can the chairman of the board of Botanic Gardens Conservation Minister say how it will be decided which department International, an international charity that co-ordinates will have the responsibility of ensuring that any the expertise available within botanic gardens to secure recommendations by NERC are carried out? Indeed, plant diversity according to internationally agreed will NERC be making any recommendations, or will it priorities. By the way, I was invited to take up that simply present the Government with the facts of the post as a result of chairing the committee’s previous decline of the discipline, which this Committee has report on this subject in 2002. already done three times? When we talk about the conservation of any species, I turn now to the serious matter of stimulating the plant or animal, it is vital that we know what we are recruitment taxonomists, of which there is a serious talking about. Scientists must be confident when they shortage. We must not be misled by some of the note reductions in populations that they are all talking figures that appeared during our investigations. For about the same thing. The only way they can do that is example, of the PhDs under way at RBG Kew, their by having clear, internationally agreed identification evidence showed that only 15 of the 80 projects included and naming criteria. Here I declare another interest as a substantial amount of descriptive taxonomy. The patron of the International Commission on Zoological Government’s response to our report stated that from Nomenclature. Both my interests are unpaid. 2002 to 2006, 83 of the PhD studentships funded by The noble Earl, Lord Selborne, talked about the NERC included elements of systematics and taxonomy. importance of type specimens, many of which the UK I strongly suspect that these were very small elements holds on behalf of the world because of our rich and that very few of them helped to produce expert heritage of collecting over hundreds of years. taxonomists. The noble Lord, Lord Soulsby, gave examples of the negative consequences of this among Despite two previous reports, the report that we are entomologists. discussing highlights two key matters that are still outstanding: first, the lack of awareness of the state of One of the Committee’s most serious complaints health of the discipline among the relevant research was about the lack of awareness at research council councils, and, secondly, the lack of a lead government level of the problems of taxonomy, and I make no department, leading to the danger of poor co-ordination. apology for returning to this issue. We welcome the As our specialist adviser, Professor Geoffrey Boxshall, forthcoming NERC study but it is vital that it makes has pointed out, these two issues interact to give a an effort to not only count taxonomists but to understand compound negative effect. how they work. As the noble Lord, Lord May, pointed out, the lack of proportionality between taxonomists I am pleased to welcome the Government’s acceptance and the living things they study is outstanding. of the first issue and the announcement that NERC will commission a study this year of the current number As an illustration of the lack of understanding with of taxonomists and trends. However, once we have which taxonomists have been dealing, I should like to that report to hand, it is unclear who will act upon it if quote from an e-mail received yesterday by the there is no lead department. The Government seem to Committee’s clerk from Dr Henry Disney of the believe that diffuse responsibility would be better than University of Cambridge. He complained that, the transfer of the lead responsibility to DIUS, as the “NERC still fails to understand the way a leading specialist in committee recommended. In my view, that will lead alpha taxonomy works. This remains a major reason for the current decline in fundamental alpha taxonomy. As a recognized only to numerous interdepartmental meetings in an leading specialist on a large family of flies … I am representative attempt to co-ordinate action, whereas it could be of those who are unable to procure funding from NERC because done much more efficiently by one department—that of their inappropriate criteria”, is, the department that has the responsibility for the a point mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord May. The initial and ongoing training of taxonomists through e-mail continues: universities and other institutions. If the Government want endless meetings, so be it. A life of endless “The demand for the PRIOR specification of hypotheses to be tested when one applies for funding to revise a taxon means one meetings seems to suit some people but I am afraid it has to do much research first in order to generate the hypotheses does not suit me if there is a better way. to be tested. Who funds this prior research? Furthermore, part of We are not suggesting that there should be no being recognized as a leading specialist is that the unexpected responsibility in any other department—that would be constantly arrives in the post … In practice I am obliged to routinely reject most requests which lack novel biological data or nonsense. Defra, for example, should have a great are not specimens of applied significance. Even so I have a interest in the matter as well as the Department of 20-year backlog of randomly collected specimens. I concentrate Energy and Climate Change, and we have made on the processing of specimens with novel biological material. recommendations to DfID. But we note that, in Since 1984 I have been funded entirely by private trusts … as co-ordinating the Government’s response to our report, NERC routinely rejects applications for undertaking fundamental DIUS did not even consult the Scottish Government, alpha taxonomy. My current funding for 2008/2009 is £500 only! Despite this I have the highest publication rate and the largest who fund the RBG Edinburgh, the third largest taxonomic number of co-authors … from the largest number of countries institution in the UK, as mentioned by our noble overseas, of anyone in my Department—the Leading Department Scottish chairman. So it is no wonder that we view of Zoology in the country”. diffuse responsibility with some suspicion. Dr Disney’s funding came from the Leverhulme However, if the Government are adamant that they and the Isaac Newton trusts, and the Wingate will not designate DIUS as the lead department, they Foundation—all charitable organisations, like my will not be surprised when this Committee keeps a own BGCI. So I am surprised and dismayed that the GC 229 Systematics Taxonomy[LORDS] Systematics Taxonomy GC 230

[BARONESS WALMSLEY] Krebs, said that it underpinned much of biological Government, who rejected our recommendation in work. He described it, very eloquently, as the infrastructure. paragraph 7.6, should give assistance and leadership It provides invaluable data to help with the conservation to voluntary organisations and action in their efforts of species and, indeed, entire ecosystems. As the report to fill the gaps. says, it underpins understanding of how large-scale In other respects, the Government response paints events such as climate change and global health threats too rosy a picture. For example, the committee affect the world, and my noble friend Lord Soulsby recommended that more resources should go into has explained his concerns in the area of entomology web-based taxonomy and that a road map should be in particular. developed to ensure correct priorities. In their response, I am sure that Members of the Committee will join the Government refer to NERC’s extensive use of me in paying tribute to those people who work tirelessly internet resources for biodiversity. However, as the in the fields of taxonomy and systematics, too often noble Lord, Lord Haskel, pointed out, most of this for inadequate recognition. It is because of that that relates to biodiversity data, geographical data, lists of we welcome the Government’s response to a number species, and so on—it does not relate to taxonomy per of the committee’s conclusions and recommendations. se. Without the development of online identification tools, which was the committee’s point, such data In large part, the Government have said that they cannot be collected or relied upon, so the Government agree with the committee’s recommendations. For example, must be realistic about this. they recognise, as do we, that a decline in taxonomy and systematics in the United Kingdom has an adverse I share the regret of the noble Lord, Lord May, that knock-on effect on related research in policy areas DfID does not regard it as part of its responsibility to such as conservation, the monitoring of climate change, the less developed countries, many of which are as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and others biodiversity-rich but cash-poor, to support online have said, and food security. resources. That would help them to develop their home-grown capacity and expertise, and their ability The report recommends—I think all noble Lords to identify, monitor and conserve their own rich will support the proposal—that importance is attached biodiversity. Many of the plants most in danger are to field trips and other practical exercises in schools, used for food, medicine, shelter and warmth, so they to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Sutherland, must be protected from overharvesting and habitat referred, which raise awareness, understanding and destruction. early enthusiasm for taxonomy. I hope that the Minister will agree that schools and schoolchildren should be DfID no doubt believes that human beings are its encouraged, for many reasons, to participate in this major responsibility. If that is the case, it should kind of activity. What steps are the Government taking remember that human beings live in habitats and to remove the fear of the compensation culture which, ecosystems too. If we, by our actions or neglect, by frustrating efforts to organise outdoor field trips, destroy our habitat and other living participants in may well stifle enthusiasm for science and the development our ecosystem, we sign our own death warrant. As the of an early interest in taxonomy? As the report rightly noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said, our enemy is the unknown. points out, it is the school pupils who gain an interest in these fields who will go on to be future volunteers, 6.12 pm creating invaluable involvement in biological recording. My noble friend Lord Soulsby, and the noble Baroness, Lord De Mauley: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lady Walmsley, have lamented the state of university-level Sutherland, and his committee and welcome their study in this area too. work on systematic biology and taxonomy, which has reminded us of the importance of taxonomical skills. While I accept that the Government have a point How appropriate that this debate should take place in when they say that responsibility for encouraging the year of the bicentenary of the birth of Darwin, volunteering in a sector lies primarily with that sector who was responsible for arguably the most fundamental itself, I fear that they are being a touch disingenuous revolution in taxonomy. He took it from a finite in distancing themselves so fully from the report’s science to one which recognised the evolution of species. recommendation that they should show leadership in My noble friend Lord Selborne spoke of the ongoing encouraging volunteers. The Government have a role importance of the collection and classification of to play here and, as the noble Lords, Lord May and specimens which evolution, among other things, makes Lord Krebs, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, so important. Indeed, it was Darwin who really showed among others, have said with some force, what is us that homology of one organism with another was currently lacking is any sense that the Government are about both structure and derivation from a common co-ordinating their own departments properly. ancestor. This brings me to the Government’s response to the While this field does not often grab much parliamentary recommendation that the Department for Innovation, attention, it is very important that we give due Universities and Skills should take the lead in consideration to these matters. My noble friend Lord co-ordinating matters relating to systematic biology. I Selborne said that some people might think that the accept that there will be a need for different departments committee was obsessed with this subject. Thank goodness to be involved but, like the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, I somebody is because the scientific process of classifying fear that the Government’s response is a trifle unhelpful. organisms and understanding their relationships is The committee’s recommendation would not preclude fundamentally necessary to meaningful comparative the involvement of different government departments research into the natural world. The noble Lord, Lord but it would allow for one department to co-ordinate GC 231 Systematics Taxonomy[25 MARCH 2009] Systematics Taxonomy GC 232 activity, investment and information exchange among views on, systematics and taxonomy. I recognise, as the others. A reduction in lost or duplicated material my noble friend Lord Haskel said, that there is no would surely be almost inevitable in such a scenario. stone which can resist the constant drip-drip-drip of Like the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, I wonder if the its constructive advice. I am certainly listening to the Minister could not reflect again on his Government’s committee’s concerns and I shall take action. response. It is the Government’s aim to ensure that this Having said that, I urge some caution in promoting country maintains its position as a leading science the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills nation. Systematics and taxonomy are important to as it is currently configured as the lead department. the research base, and we are committed to protecting The Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills and strengthening them. They are, as the noble Lords, Committee report, published in January and based on Lord Soulsby and Lord Krebs, said, essential DIUS’s first departmental report, was somewhat less underpinnings to work on biodiversity, understanding than glowing. The opinion of the committee was that ecosystem services and climate change. I was struck by the department, the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, “has not yet found its feet”. about the value of sheer intellectual curiosity. In our I hope it was not government embarrassment over this efforts to develop a wider understanding of science in that led to their rejection of the Science Committee’s our community and a scientifically literate society, the recommendation for departmental leadership. communication of the power within science—of the power of curiosity about things, asking why they are While my noble friend Lord Selborne referred to it as they are and going further to try to understand in his contribution today when he talked about the them—is vital. prioritisation of effort, I noticed no reference to Europe in the Government’s response. What effort, if any, are This science has important economic aspects, too, they making to co-ordinate work on taxonomy and of which I give just one example. UK taxonomists systematics with our fellow members of the EU? Other helped to identify the mealy bug attacking cassava in noble Lords have referred to co-ordination with Scotland Africa and its natural enemy in South America. Their and my noble friend Lord Soulsby mentioned the discovery led to savings of up to $20 billion. importance of the United States in this field, particularly The impact of this area on public attitudes to science in entomology. Again, it would be interesting to know is also vital. I have in mind the great public interest in what co-operation was going on across the Atlantic. the national collections. I agree wholeheartedly with We on these Benches realise that the critical importance the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, about the importance of science, technology, engineering and mathematics of field trips in science education, which we are actively to our economy and our society means that improvement encouraging within the Government. I share his concern in our national performance in those subjects must be about the development of the compensation culture in central to a future Conservative Government’s policies. our society, which make such trips more difficult to The report indicates that we have some form on this, in organise than they would otherwise be. that it refers back to its own predecessor, Systematic We accept that the Government have an important Biology Research, published in 1992, to which the role in encouraging volunteering in this area, and we noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, referred and which my are pursuing it. I am happy to answer the question noble friend Lord Selborne said he was jointly responsible asked by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, about DCMS for. That report served to stimulate several measures funding of regional museums. DCMS allocates £45 million that were implemented during the term of office of a to regional museums through the Renaissance in the Conservative Government, including the Natural Regions programme. That funding is committed for Environment Research Council’s taxonomy initiative the remainder of the current spending period. The and the Wellcome Trust biodiversity initiative. The DCMS is also committed to funding the strategic report acknowledges that those initiatives of the early commissioning education programme for this period, 1990s were successful and that their contribution is which I hope gives the reassurance that the noble Lord still felt today. I recognise and welcome the resources sought. that the present Government have made available in I listened carefully to the concerns of the noble past years for the promotion of science, but it would Lord, Lord May, about the cognitive dissonance between be encouraging indeed if they were to use the current the stated priorities of DfID. I shall look at the matter report as a springboard for fresh initiatives which again and discuss it with my colleagues from that would secure the United Kingdom’s standing in this department. area for another generation. I also accept the concerns expressed by a number of 6.20 pm noble Lords relating to the failure to consult fully, The Minister of State, Department for Innovation, particularly on the collection in Scotland. Scotland Universities and Skills (Lord Drayson): I thank the has an excellent research record in taxonomy and the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, for securing this debate Royal Botanic Garden in Edinburgh has a high and for leading the committee in producing this report. international standing. We were originally confident I am grateful to him and to his colleagues for their in the preparation of our response to the committee’s recommendations. The report has not only focused the report that the state of the discipline in Scotland was Government’s attention on this vital scientific covered, but we have taken the point on board. discipline—an underpinning infrastructure, as the noble We have accepted 20 of the 25 recommendations Lord, Lord Krebs, described it—but given me a chance produced by the committee. We agree that within these to hear further the committee’s insights into, and recommendations the internet will play an important GC 233 Systematics Taxonomy[LORDS] Systematics Taxonomy GC 234

[LORD DRAYSON] specific activities in the research base through the role in the evolution of taxonomy. I have noted in the science and research budget is the responsibility of the debate today the concern about whether or not we department. However, it is important to stress our have missed an important point on the full potential of belief in the crucial centrality of the Haldane principle— web-based resources, in particular in relation to taxonomy that decisions relating to funding are made by the tools. I will take this back to the department and look scientific community—and the importance of the into it further. Most importantly, we note the concerns independence of the research council. that have been expressed by the committee around the I noted that the committee regards the concerns lines of communication between the taxonomy community around this underpinning infrastructure of the science and the research councils. The committee has helpfully of taxonomy to be of fundamental strategic importance. highlighted the concern in this area and I shall explore I accept that DIUS has a clear role in providing it further. strategic guidance, and therefore I can see the argument I am also grateful that the committee has given that, where there are problems, this may be one of credit where it is due and has noted the progress that those areas where, in DIUS’s role as championing UK we have made. I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord science and in my role as Science Minister, it is DIUS’s Selborne, for highlighting the cross-research council responsibility to take action. programme of living with environmental change. This In conclusion, I remind noble Lords that in the is an example of the excellent work which the research great majority of recommendations the Government councils are doing in working across disciplines. The and the committee are in agreement. We have accepted noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, made a point about them in large part and are busy implanting them. We international collaboration. That programme has been both want to ensure that the UK remains at the looked at very closely by the American Administration forefront of this discipline internationally, and I am as a model for the way in which this area should grateful for the committee’s assessment that, as the be addressed. noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, described it, significant The committee voiced serious concerns about the progress has been made. However, I take the point that health and sustainability of the discipline, and this is over the 17-year period in which a number of reviews of concern to the Government. That is why the have taken place in this discipline, there are areas forthcoming review being carried out by NERC is where, as the noble Lord said, we could do better. extremely important. It will give us the data that we Further work is now needed to establish the structures need for a stronger evidence base upon which to make that will support that ambition, based on data which future decisions. It will be led by an expert committee will be generated from the review. I am clear that, with and the review will seek a better understanding of the continued prompting from this committee, we can responsibilities among the various UK institutions expect further developments from the Government in which cover taxonomy. The committee will examine this area. which aspects of NERC’s four-year strategy will require I shall read Hansard to see whether there are any new taxonomic knowledge and skills and will make questions that noble Lords have raised this afternoon recommendations on how these needs will be met. It that I have not answered. In particular, I think that it will also look at the key issues in taxonomic research would be useful for me to give a full description of the which could attract research council funding and which international collaborations that the noble Lord, Lord could make a fundamental contribution to both UK De Mauley, asked for, both transatlantically and within science and our society. It will be a thorough review. Europe, and I shall ensure that that is done by the I hope that reassures the Committee about the department. Government’s commitment to sustaining systematic biology and taxonomy in this country. The review will include the recommendation of mechanisms 6.32 pm for collaborative operations across departments and Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: I simply thank all disciplines. those who have taken part. The quality of the debate Following completion of the review, we will look demonstrates very well what a rare privilege it is to be again at whether there is a compelling case for there to chairman of such a committee and such a group in be a lead department for this discipline. The noble preparing this kind of report. Perhaps it is going too Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked how this would be far to say that the expertise and interest around the delivered. I would point to the recent innovation of table is matchless, but I can say for sure that they the creation of the new Science and Innovation Sub- would be pretty hard to match. Committee. My role as Science Minister and a seat in I also thank the Minister for his sympathetic and the Cabinet provide an opportunity for cross-departmental informed reply. It was, dare I say, of the kind that we issues to be addressed and for decisions to be taken. might hope for from a former member of the Select That is the mechanism by which it will be done. At this Committee. We appreciate his comments and will study point, I am unsure as to whether locating responsibility them in Hansard. in a single department such as DIUS would be an The message is very clear: these disciplines are of appropriate solution. However, I am prepared to look fundamental importance for science, for the nation at the matter again, based on the data which come out and for the Government. We have national strengths of the NERC review. in these areas—talented people and outstanding It is important to recognise, as Members of the collections—but both might be at risk if we do not Committee do, that DIUS does not have overall take action on a systematic and long-term basis. We responsibility for particular areas of science. Funding do not need a knee-jerk reaction. GC 235 Systematics Taxonomy[25 MARCH 2009] Systematics Taxonomy GC 236

In conclusion, I do not know whether the Minister one point, they turn round and one says to the other, ever saw the film “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance “Who are these guys?”. The answer in this case will Kid” but in that film Butch and Sundance—Paul clearly be Selborne, Walmsley, Soulsby, Krebs and Newman and Robert Redford—were bank robbers May, who have already been at it for 17 years and will, fleeing the forces of law and order. I do not press the I hope, be ably supported by those of us who are analogy too closely but they are fleeing the forces of rather newer to the game. law and order over desert and mountain. However, the Motion agreed. forces of law and order continue to pursue them. At Committee adjourned at 6.34 pm.

WS 41 Written Statements[25 MARCH 2009] Written Statements WS 42

bribes in our business or public sectors, but also Written Statements to reinforce transparency and accountability in our international business transactions. Wednesday 25 March 2009 Law reform is one of the key elements of the UK’s strategy against foreign bribery, which I am co-coordinating in my role as government anti-corruption Bribery Bill champion as announced in my Statement of 2 October Statement 2008. Concerted multilateral action is essential to tackle the global impact of bribery and related issues The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry such as money laundering. Co-operation with our of Justice (Lord Bach): My right honourable friend the international partners is producing significant progress Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice has in areas such as the tracing, recovery and repatriation made the following Written Ministerial Statement. of money laundered misappropriated assets. In addition, we are supporting effective implementation of the UN In my role as the Government’s anti-corruption Convention against Corruption, the OECD Bribery champion I am pleased to inform the House that I Convention and the Council of Europe’s Criminal have today laid before Parliament the draft Bribery Law Convention on Corruption. Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny (Bribery—Draft Legislation Cm 7570). This is in accordance with the Government’s The Bill builds on the Law Commission proposals legislative programme as set out in the Written Statement set out in its report Reforming Bribery in November by my right honourable friend the Leader of the 2008. I should like to express my gratitude to the Law House of Commons on 4 December 2008 (Official Commission for its excellent report. The Bill’s principal Report, Col.12WS). provisions create two general offences; one dealing with the giving, promising, and offering of a bribe and The Bill describes a modern, clear and consolidated the other with agreeing to receive or acceptance of a law that will support our commitment to high ethical bribe. It provides a new discrete offence of bribery of standards generally and will equip our courts and a foreign public official and a new corporate liability prosecutors to deal effectively with bribery of all kinds offence of negligently failing to prevent bribery. The whether it occurs at home or abroad. I believe these detail of these and the other remaining provisions of provisions strike the right balance between clarity and the Bill are explained in full in the Explanatory Notes detail, so as to allow for both legal certainty and the published along side the Bill. My officials have shared effective differentiation between bribery and the legitimate details of our proposed legislation with colleagues giving and receiving of advantages. in Scotland. It will be for the Scottish Ministers to Our current criminal law of bribery is old and consider whether any similar changes will be necessary anachronistic and can be difficult for prosecutors, to Scots law. courts and members of the public. Statutory law is fragmented and dates back to around the turn of the 20th century. It is unconsolidated, resulting in EU: Telecoms Council inconsistencies of language and concepts between the Statement various provisions and one or two small but potentially significant gaps in the law. The scope of the common law offence is unclear, adding to inconsistency and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for overall complexity. These issues have been noted at Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord home and abroad, most notably by the OECD Bribery Carter of Barnes): I am pleased to confirm the Working Group. It is clear that, from a purely legal agenda items for which BERR has responsibility at perspective, the case for reform is strong. the forthcoming Transport, Telecommunications This is, however, much more than a desire for an and Energy Council (Telecoms Council) in Brussels orderly statute book. While the United Kingdom is on 31 March 2009. recognised as one of the least corrupt countries in the There are only two substantive agenda items, the world we do not underestimate the threat posed by first of which is the adoption of council conclusions bribery. If it is not kept in check, bribery can destroy on the Commission’s communication for an accessible the integrity, accountability and honesty that underpin information society. The UK welcomes and supports ethical standards in public and commercial life. By its the timing of this communication which is in line with very nature insidious and difficult to root out, bribery recommendations recently made in the cross-government worldwide weakens democracy, impedes sustainable report Delivering Digital Inclusion—An Action Plan development and can undermine respect for human for Consultation. Both the cross-government paper rights by supporting corrupt regimes. and the Digital Britain Report are also looking at what As advances in technology and communication enable the Government can do to stimulate take-up and ever more sophisticated means of committing and access of digital technologies in the UK. concealing crimes, we must ensure that our law provides This will be followed by an exchange of views on our courts and prosecutors with the tools they need to the impact of the economic downturn on ICT and combat such crime effectively. Over the years it has how ICT can boost the EU’s economy. As the become clear that a law that has narrow national focus Government’s interim Digital Britain Report highlighted, will not fulfil this role. The global economy is a reality. ICT is one of the sectors which we all rely upon to Modernisation of the law is therefore a priority, not underpin our whole economy, as its effective utilisation only to deal effectively with those who offer or accept can deliver productivity gains to our citizens and WS 43 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 44 enterprises. This discussion will provide an opportunity There will be a progress report and policy debate on to introduce our thinking for taking digital Britain the latest situation on the proposed amendment to forward, and listen to the plans and proposals other Directive 1999/62/EC on the charging of heavy goods Ministers are considering to enable ICT to accelerate vehicles for the use of certain infrastructures (the longer-term growth. Eurovignette directive). We support the principle of In addition to these two substantive items, there are the polluter pays and therefore the broad aims of the four further items for which BERR has responsibility directive. However, we have concerns with some of listed under any other business. The first of these will the proposals, including a requirement to introduce be an update from the council presidency on negotiations earmarking. on a decision of the European Parliament and of the The council will aim to reach a general approach on council on interoperability solutions for European a proposed amendment to the directive on the organisation public administrations (ISA Programme). The UK of working time in road transport. The amending supports the proposed programme as its predecessors directive aims to permanently exclude the genuinely have proved successful in delivering guidelines, common self-employed from the scope of the working time frameworks, studies on cross-border communication rules for mobile workers and provide additional flexibility and IT-enabled service platforms for the delivery of to industry on night work limits. I expect to be able to Community policies and activities. agree to the general approach. The presidency will then provide information on Following the recent Commission communication the recent 112 Day. To mark 112 Day in the UK, I “ActionPlan for the deployment of Intelligent Transport wrote to other government departments that could Systems in Europe”, the council will be asked to adopt play a role in raising awareness of the pan-European conclusions. The Government support the objectives emergency number. We are currently undertaking follow of the ITS action plan to reduce congestion, tackle up work on this with the Foreign Office and Identity environmental issues, provide reliable travel information and Passport Service (IPS). and improve safety. We welcome the recognition in the The Commission will then present its communication conclusions of the contribution that technology can on mobilising information and communication make to meet those objectives. technologies to facilitate the transition to an energy- Within the SESAR project for single sky efficient, low-carbon economy. The UK agrees with implementation, the Commission has recently produced the aims of this communication which seeks to raise a master plan for air traffic management in Europe. awareness of the potential ICT has to improve efficiency The council will be asked to adopt a decision endorsing of European enterprises, including public sector, systems the master plan and a council resolution on it. The and processes. UK has been a firm supporter of the SESAR project Lastly, the presidency will provide an update on the from the outset. We recognise the contribution the review of the EU regulatory framework for electronic project can make to improvement of the European air communications networks and services. On the same traffic management system, while helping to mitigate day as the council, the European Parliament is voting the impacts of aviation on the environment. In order in Committee stage on this review package, followed for the project to begin its second phase (development), by their plenary vote on the 22 April. I will shortly be we should endorse this resolution and request the writing to you with Explanatory Memoranda on the SESAR joint undertaking to complete membership Commission’s response to the Council common position, agreements with industry at the earliest possible and will take the opportunity to update you on the opportunity. progress of negotiations. Under AOB, the presidency will report on progress The Czech presidency is also hosting a ministerial of the legislative proposals of the single European sky lunch where Estonia is likely to be invited to make a (SES) package. It is expected that the European Parliament presentation on its forthcoming conference on cyber in plenary session will by then have voted on these security in Tallinn. Commissioner Reding will present proposals. The first of them is a regulation amending the forthcoming communication on communication the four regulations adopted in 2004 which established and information infrastructure protection. I understand the single European sky. The amending regulation the communication will recommend broad standards aims to improve the efficiency of air traffic management on the resilience of critical ICT infrastructure and on (ATM) across the EU by introducing targets that member states’ national response capacity to ensure ensure all member states contribute to an overall the provision of telecoms services. improvement in the performance of the ATM system. The second is an amending regulation extending the EU: Transport Council responsibilities of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) to the safety of aerodromes, air traffic Statement management and air navigation services. The UK has been a firm supporter of the single European sky since The Minister of State, Department for Transport its inception in 2004. We are content with progress in (Lord Adonis): My right honourable friend the Secretary negotiations and look forward to these proposals being of State for Transport (Geoff Hoon) has made the adopted as soon as possible. following Ministerial Statement. Finally in aviation, the presidency will seek political I will attend the first Transport Council of the endorsement for a future council decision to sign a Czech presidency which will take place in Brussels on comprehensive air transport agreement with Canada. 30 March. The UK is supportive of this agreement, which would WS 45 Written Statements[25 MARCH 2009] Written Statements WS 46 deliver the phased opening of aviation markets and and deliver affordable housing and to report to the investment liberalisation for EU and Canadian carriers, Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural as well as other commercial freedoms and improved Affairs and the Minister of State for Housing and regulatory co-operation. Planning. The final report of the review, with detailed In maritime transport, there will be a progress recommendations, was published in July 2008. The report and policy debate on a draft regulation on the review identified the specific challenges facing rural rights of passengers when travelling by sea and inland areas but recognises that, “contrary to an often outdated waterway.We support the aim of the regulation, following view of the countryside, the economies of rural and provisions already agreed for other transport modes, urban England are much more alike than many people and we will continue to work closely with the Commission might imagine”. The Government will therefore give and member states on the details. local authorities more flexibility to tackle the issues Also in maritime transport, the council will be their communities face. asked to adopt conclusions arising from two recent Our response sets out our proposals to take forward Commission communications. The first, strategic goals most of the review’s 48 recommendations to continue and recommendations for the EU’s maritime transport to encourage a prosperous rural economies and improve policy until 2018, has as its aims, acceptable to us the delivery of affordable rural homes. This will help in principle, the promotion of European shipping businesses, councils and the wider community, particularly and related industries, which are safe, secure and in the current challenging economic conditions, and environmentally friendly, while remaining efficient, will assist rural communities in becoming more sustainable. adaptable and globally competitive. The second We welcome the review as giving important emphasis communication is an action plan with a view to to what it takes to develop and sustain a strong rural establishing a European maritime space without barriers. economy, and improve access to a range of housing. This is a concept which we can support in principle. It In response to the review’s recommendations, we are is designed to extend the Community’s internal market announcing new approaches which local planning by simplifying administrative procedures for intra-EU authorities and rural communities should adopt to maritime transport, particularly short sea shipping, in improve the rural economy and encourage more affordable order to improve the efficiency and competitiveness of housing to be built in the countryside in appropriate this sector, as well as to deliver environmental benefits. places. I expect to be able to agree to both sets of conclusions. This includes: Under AOB, the council will report on the draft ensuring that masterplanning is properly understood, regulation establishing the second Marco Polo programme, and widely used, and running a competition to following recent negotiations with the European encourage good practice. In this context, masterplanning Parliament. The Marco Polo programme provides primarily means spatial masterplanning, as an approach Community financial assistance to improve the to achieve the sustainable expansion of small or environmental performance of the freight transport medium-sized settlements in particular; system. This proposal intends to stimulate more setting up a practitioners’ working group to explore applications for funding by increasing participation by ways to incentivise landowners to use the existing small enterprises, simplifying administrative procedures, rural exception sites policy, where local planning increasing funding intensities and redefining and lowering authorities can grant permission for small scale the eligibility thresholds for project proposals. The housing development as an exception to their normal Government believe that these amendments should policies of countryside protection; allow the Marco Polo II programme fully to deploy its potential, so we strongly support the proposed revision. bringing together a number of existing planning policy statements covering economic development Also under AOB the Commission will report on the topics into a single new planning policy statement Galileo satellite navigation programme and on its on planning for prosperity. This will be published recent proposal for an amending regulation on airport for consultation shortly; and slot allocation. publishing proposals for taking forward the use of community land trusts which can enable local Housing: Rural Areas communities to work together to meet their own Statement housing needs, alongside details to create protected areas where shared ownership homes need to be The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, retained for future purchasers. These proposals too Department for Communities and Local Government will be published for consultation shortly. (Baroness Andrews): My right honourable friend the A copy of the Government’s response is available in Minister for Housing and Planning (Margaret Beckett) the Library of the House. has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Payments Council Rural Affairs and I are today publishing the Government’s response to the report from the honourable Member Statement for Truro and St Austell (Matthew Taylor), Living, Working Countryside. The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury In September 2007, the Prime Minister asked the (Lord Myners): My honourable friend the Economic honourable Member to undertake a review on how Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson) has today land use and planning can better support rural businesses made the following Written Ministerial Statement. WS 47 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 48

On 25 March, the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) The OFT also recommends that the Payments Council published a report setting out its findings on the provides a self-assessment against progress every two effectiveness of the Payments Council in meeting its years on: objectives. The Payments Council started work in its strategic direction and openness and accountability March 2007, following an agreement in November objectives; 2006 by the OFT-chaired Payment Systems Task Force recommendations of the task force where these that a new body be created to provide strategic direction have not been met; and for the UK’s payment industry. The task force set three key objectives for the Payments Council: recommendations coming out of this OFT report. This self-assessment should contain the results of to lead the future development of co-operative an open consultation with stakeholders on progress payment services in the United Kingdom; against objectives. The OFT may still choose to look to ensure that the payment system is open and into specific aspects of the Payments Council’s accountable; and performance against objectives, if it considers there to to ensure the operational efficiency, effectiveness be sufficient reason. and integrity of payment services in the United The Government welcome the OFT work to review Kingdom, through a focus on issues which cross the effectiveness of the Payments Council, and welcome schemes. the recommendations made. I am writing today to the The task force agreed that the OFT would carry out chair of the Payments Council to note the Government’s a review of the effectiveness of the new governance continued interest in the future work of the Payments body (subsequently named the Payments Council), Council. after two years of its operation. This was to ensure that the objectives of the new body were being met Secure Training Centres: Oakhill and delivered on in practice. This Statement highlights the key findings and recommendations in the OFT Statement review of the operations of the Payments Council. The OFT report concludes that the Payments Council The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry is a definite improvement on what prevailed before its of Justice (Lord Bach): My right honourable friend the creation. The Payments Council’s consultation on a Minister of State (David Hanson) has made the following national payments plan, setting out the strategic direction Written Ministerial Statement. it should pursue over the next five to 10 years, was In my Written Ministerial Statement of 14 May widely welcomed by stakeholders, and contributed to 2008 (Official Report, col. 61WS), I informed the its objective on openness and accountability. The House that the Youth Justice Board had decided to introduction of the faster payments scheme (FPS) in issue rectification notices to STC Milton Keynes Ltd., May 2007 represented a substantial innovation. Users the contractor responsible for the delivery of services of the system will be able to make telephone and at Oakhill secure training centre. internet payments within a matter of hours, rather My right honourable friend the Minister of State than over three working days as under the BACS for Children, Young People and Families (Beverley system. Hughes) and I wish to inform the House that the While the introduction of the faster payment scheme Youth Justice Board has decided to withdraw the was a real achievement, the rolling out of faster payment rectification notices imposed on STC Milton Keynes services by many banks to their customers has been Ltd. The contractor has addressed all of the deficiencies relatively slow. The report finds that the Payments which had been identified and the centre is now able to Council should be more pro-active in following up its operate at full capacity. initiatives with members and should also consider Ofsted carried out an inspection of the centre in widening its membership and making more effective December 2008 and its report which was published use of user groups, to ensure that end-users get the yesterday gave the centre an overall quality rating of benefits envisaged. satisfactory. The OFT report recommends that the Payments The next step is for the contractor to consolidate Council increases the emphasis on its integrity objective the positive changes and build on the improvements in future. Although the safety and security of payment made to date. The Youth Justice Board will continue systems have not been compromised, the Payments to monitor the service being delivered at the centre Council has not added value quickly enough, and this and will take the necessary actions to resolve any is an area where it needs to improve. The OFT considers problems identified and drive forward improvements. that the Payments Council should commission an accountancy firm to report in two years on how well it Waste Management has performed against its integrity objective. The report (or the executive summary of it) should be published Statement in the Payments Council’s annual review, and the Payments Council should outline how it intends to The Minister of State, Department of Energy and address any action points identified in it. Following Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food the review from the accountancy firm, the Payments and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My Council should self-assess against its integrity objective right honourable friend the Secretary of State for using the same procedure described below for its Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn) other objectives. has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. WS 49 Written Statements[25 MARCH 2009] Written Statements WS 50

Following a review of the department’s delivery Over the past three years, Defra has invested bodies which support business, consumers and the £650 million in a range of programmes that help public sector in resource efficiency, Defra has decided organisations and the public use resources more efficiently. that from April 2010 WRAP (Waste and Resources With this funding our delivery partners have delivered Action Programme) will lead in the provision of such environmental benefits and cost savings for business. advice and support. This will provide a streamlined, They should be rightly proud of their achievements. more efficient service and better value for money to the taxpayer. The review identified that a single delivery body was the most efficient way of providing resource efficiency The review covered the following organisations: services to businesses, the public sector and households; Waste and Resources Action Programme (WRAP); and that such a single point of contact would also National Industrial Symbiosis Programme (NISP); ensure greater ease of access for customers. WRAP Envirowise; was identified as the natural focus for this effort, providing the widest range of relevant services, and Construction Resources and Waste Platform (CRWP); having the necessary management capability. Centre for Reuse and Remanufacture (CRR); Action Sustainability (AS); and This change will support the “Improving Your Resource Efficiency”product provided by RDAs through BREW Centre for Local Authorities Business Link under Government’s Business Support All were involved and consulted throughout the Simplification Programme (BSSP). entire review process. The review also considered the role of regional development agencies (RDAs) in Over the coming year, WRAP will work with Defra supporting business resource efficiency, including through and the other delivery bodies to determine how best to Business Link as the primary access for business support. implement this fully integrated service from April 2010.

WA 131 Written Answers[25 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 132

the table below. The department does not hold complete Written Answers data on the cost to the NHS for abortions performed in the independent sector under NHS contract and Wednesday 25 March 2009 does not hold data on the cost of privately funded abortions. Abortion National total cost of medical and surgical Questions terminations undertaken by NHS organisations Year (Schedule 4 of national reference costs) Asked by Baroness Masham of Ilton 2006-07 £62,886,000 To ask Her Majesty’s Government for each of 2005-06 £78,588,000 the last three years for which figures are available, 2004-05 £67,637,000 how many abortions were performed in (a) England Source: Schedule 4 (NHS Trusts and PCTs combined) of the and Wales, and (b) Scotland; how many were performed national schedule of reference costs in National Health Service hospitals; how many in Notes: private hospitals; what was the cost of performing 1. The figures in the table above represent the number of abortions in National Health Service hospitals and Finished Consultant Episodes (FCEs) multiplied by the national in private hospitals; what was the total number of average unit cost. abortions performed under the Abortion Act 1967; 2. National average unit costs are calculated on a weighted basis. and, of those, how many were performed to save 3. Schedule 4 2006-07 data are not directly comparable to the life of the mother. [HL2275] 2005-06 and 2004-05 due a change in the data collection. 4. Figures have not been adjusted for the market forces factor. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The The cost of abortions performed in Wales is a available information is shown in the following tables. matter for the Welsh Assembly Government. Data on, Costs to the National Health Service for abortions and cost of, abortions performed in Scotland are a performed in NHS hospitals in England are set out in matter for the Scottish Government.

Abortions: totals, rates and by purchaser, residents, England and Wales, 2005 – 2007 Rate per 1,000 women residents aged 15-44 Purchaser Year Total ASR* Crude NHS NHS agency Non-NHS

2005 186,416 17.8 17.0 74,744 82,518 29,154 2006 193,737 18.3 17.5 75,328 92,494 25,915 2007 198,499 18.6 17.9 75,518 100,195 22,786 * Age-standardised rates (ASR). Rates for all women residents age-standardised to the European population for ages 15-44.

Total abortions to save the life of the mother *, residents of England and Lord Darzi of Denham: The available information is Wales, 2005-07 shown in the following table. Total all Section 1(4) Section 1(1)(c) % abortions Abortions : totals and rates, residents, England and Wales, 2005-07 Rate per 1,000 women residents aged 15-44 1 2005 - 128 0.07 186,416 Age-standardised 2006 - 1491 0.08 193,737 Year Total rate (ASR)* Crude 2007 - 1121 0.06 198,499 2005 186,416 17.8 17.0 * Grounds under the Abortion Act 1967. 2006 193,737 18.3 17.5 Section 1(4) that the termination is immediately necessary to save 2007 198,499 18.6 17.9 the life or to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman. * Rates for all women residents age-standardised to the European population for ages 15-44 Section 1(1)(c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated. Data on abortions performed in Scotland are a - suppressed value less than 10 (between 0-9) in line with the matter for the Scottish Government. Office for National Statistics’ guidance on the disclosure of abortion statistics (2005). 1 total includes suppressed values. Asked by Baroness Masham of Ilton Asked by Baroness Masham of Ilton To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many abortions were performed under the Abortion Act To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were the 1967 in each of the past 15 years, broken down by abortion rates per 1,000 women aged 15 to 44 in (a) grounds for abortion, (b) length of gestation, (a) England and Wales, and (b) Scotland, in each of and (c) health authority in Scotland, where the the last three years for which figures are available. unborn child was suffering from (1) cleft palate, [HL2276] and (2) cleft lip. [HL2279] WA 133 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 134

Lord Darzi of Denham: The information is shown Aluminium in the following table for abortions performed in England and Wales since 1995. Question Prior to 1995, the International Classification of Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Diseases and Related Health Problems codes did not include cleft lip and/or palate. For 1995 onwards, To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the abortions with a principal medical condition of cleft Written Answer by Baroness Vadera on 11 February lip or cleft palate are coded together as cleft lip and/or (WA 185–86), whether the aluminium plant at Wylfa palate. will be closed as a consequence of European Union state aid rules. [HL1518] Data cannot be broken down by gestation or health authority for confidentiality reasons in line with the Office for National Statistics’ guidance on the disclosure The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, of abortion statistics (2005). All abortions shown were Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory performed under Section 1(1)(d) of the Abortion Act Reform & Cabinet Office (Baroness Vadera): In response 1967, that there is substantial risk that if the child to global market conditions, Rio Tinto Alcan has were born it would suffer from such physical or mental recently announced its restructuring plans and also abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped. 2008 said that it anticipates that it may have to close its statistics are due to be published in spring 2009. aluminium smelting operation at the Holyhead site Data on abortions performed in Scotland are a (Anglesey Aluminium) at the end of September 2009 matter for the Scottish Government. when its current long-term energy supply contract with the nuclear power station at Wylfa ends. No final Abortions performed under Section 1(1)(d) of the Abortion Act 1967, decision has been taken yet and we welcome Rio with a principal medical condition of cleft lip and/or palate by gestation, residents of England and Wales, 1995-2007 Tinto’s willingness to continue to seek a new energy Total cleft lip and/or palate contract and pursue other commercial opportunities All gestations 24+ weeks for the Anglesey site. The contract between Anglesey Aluminium Metal 1995 6 0 (AAM) and the NDA is a commercial matter for the 1996 5 0 parties and is subject to state aid rules. As well as 1997 5 0 doing what it can to encourage the company and the 1998 5 0 NDA to agree a new energy contract, BERR, together 1999 3 0 with the Welsh Assembly Government and DECC, 2000 9 0 will continue to work with Anglesey Aluminium to try 2001 2 1 and help the company find a way forward. 2002 1 0 2003 111 - Armed Forces: Accommodation 2004 111 - 2005 111 - Question 2006 - - Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick 2007 - - To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they - suppressed value less than 10 (between 0 and 9). From 2003 will increase funding for upgrading and refurbishing onwards, totals of less than 10 are suppressed for reasons of army family accommodation; and, if so, by how confidentiality in line with the Office for National Statistics’ much. [HL2342] (ONS) guidance on the disclosure of abortion statistics (2005). 1 For years 2003, 2004 and 2005, some of the principal medical The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry conditions for abortions performed under Section 1(1)(d) had to of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The Government be suppressed as the totals for each single year were too small to attach a high priority to the needs of service personnel release. In the three years 2003-05, there were 11 cases with a principal medical condition of the congenital malformation cleft and their families. For that reason we plan to spend in lip and/or cleft palate. excess of £3 billion on improving and upgrading Armed Forces accommodation over the next decade. Included Asked by Baroness Masham of Ilton within this sum is over £600 million for upgrading and refurbishing family accommodation. We are having to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they make good decades of underinvestment and the process will take account of the effects of the Hyde Amendment will inevitably take time. on federal funding of abortion in the United States in preparing future partial regulatory impact Armed Forces: Deployment assessments of legislation relating to termination of Question pregnancy. [HL2280] Asked by Lord Moonie To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Lord Darzi of Denham: Only legislation pertaining members of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces were to the laws governing abortion in Great Britain will be deployed in each of the states which made up the considered as part of any future partial regulatory former Republic of Yugoslavia on (a) 1 January impact assessment of legislation relating to the termination 2008, and (b) 1 January 2009; and how many are of pregnancy. We have no plans to change the law on expected to be added or withdrawn in each of the abortion. next three years. [HL2348] WA 135 Written Answers[25 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 136

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry At Budget 2008 the Chancellor made a commitment of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The table not to make substantial changes to these rules for this below provides the number of Armed Forces personnel Parliament and the next; we do not intend to set a deployed in each country. Figures have been rounded requirement for chairmen and chief executives to be to the nearest five for both Kosovo, and Bosnia and resident or domiciled in the UK. Herzegovina. The numbers include personnel deployed in support of NATO, EU and diplomatic tasks. Banking: Bank of Scotland (Ireland) Question Country 1 January 2008 1 January 2009 Asked by Lord Laird Bosnia and Herzegovina 20 20 Croatia 2 0 To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Kosovo 175 175 Written Answer by Lord Myners on 10 March Macedonia 2 0 (WA225) about appointments of senior management Serbia 2 1 in the Bank of Scotland (Ireland), in relation to Slovenia 0 0 which other banks operating in the United Kingdom the Financial Services Authority has no role in the appointment of senior management. [HL2137] I refer my noble friend to the Statement my right honourable friend the Secretary of State made on 4 March 2009 (Official Report, col. 1659W), which The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury provides further information on the proposed drawdown (Lord Myners): The FSA assesses the fitness and propriety in the presence of Armed Forces personnel in Kosovo. of senior management in all institutions where it is the Force levels are kept under constant review in light primary regulator. The FSA Register at www.fsa.gov.uk/ of the changing situation. register/home.do displays details of all firms that are authorised to operate in the UK together with the details of any senior management within these institutions where it has assessed their fitness and propriety. Armed Forces: Parades Question Benefits Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government in view of Asked by Lord Laird Section 29J of the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006, what is their assessment of the arrest of To ask Her Majesty’s Government how their Mr Nathan Draper at the demonstrations at the policy on population limitation informs their policies parade by the 2nd Battalion The Royal Anglian for the payment of benefits. [HL1850] Regiment on 10 March. [HL2240] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office (Lord West of Spithead): This is an operational Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of matter for the chief constable of Bedfordshire police. Luton): The Government do not have a policy on population limitation. Banking Question Brazil: Sex Tourism Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will require the chairmen and chief executives of Asked by Lord Hylton banks in which the taxpayer, through UK Financial To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Investments, holds over 50 per cent of the ordinary will provide the government of Brazil with technical shares to be fully resident and domiciled in the advice and expertise to limit the use of the internet United Kingdom for tax purposes; and, if not, for for promoting sex-tourism, paedophilia and sex what reason. [HL2049] trafficking, either directly or through the international organisations of which the United Kingdom is a The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury member. [HL2387] (Lord Myners): The Government were clear when the UK’s rules on residence and domicile for personal tax purposes were reformed in the 2008 Finance Act that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home the remittance basis of taxation is a legitimate basis of Office (Lord West of Spithead): The UK works closely taxation. It has been made fairer by the reforms and with international partners, either bilaterally or through ensures a greater contribution from those staying in multilateral organisations, to tackle these crimes. There the UK long term. The Government also believe it is has been limited direct contact with Brazil, but we important to attract investment and resources to the would of course be happy to discuss such matters with UK, and these rules help to support UK competitiveness. them, and to work with them to prevent these offences. WA 137 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 138

Companies Act 2006 As a result of deer control in these sensitive areas we would expect to see a reduction in these negative Question impacts and a reduction in the number of woodland Asked by Lord Sharman SSSIs in unfavourable condition due to deer. In England in 2004, 8,146 hectares of woodland To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress SSSI were in unfavourable condition because of the has been made in evaluating the business reviews impacts of deer. The Deer Initiative, a broad partnership being published by companies under the Companies of statutory, voluntary and private interests which Act 2006. [HL2071] works to foster the sustainable management of deer in England and Wales, was asked to focus on certain The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, priority areas. By 2007, the figure of 8,146 hectares Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory had been reduced to 3,907 hectares being in unfavourable Reform & Cabinet Office (Baroness Vadera): The condition because of deer impacts. Government committed to conduct an assessment of the business review provisions under Section 417 of the Companies Act 2006 two years after implementation. Electoral Register: Northern Ireland These provisions came into force on 1 October 2007 Question for financial years beginning on or after that date. The first business reviews to be completed under these Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass provisions will therefore be published this year and we To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the expect to review how the provisions have worked in Written Answer by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on 2010, after two reporting cycles. 9 March (WA 204), and notwithstanding that they deem the prosecution of Mr Ian Withers to be an operational matter, whether they will make an Debt: United States assessment of the wider implications of this Question prosecution. [HL2085] Asked by Lord Laird Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Although the prosecution To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they of Mr Withers is an operational matter, the Government owe outstanding principal of $4,368 billion to the have responsibility for maintaining the legislative United States; whether there is interest on that framework governing elections and electoral registration figure; and, if so, how much. [HL2013] in Northern Ireland. Legislation relating to electoral registration is reviewed on an ongoing basis, including The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury powers relating to the provision of information to (Lord Myners): At the end of the First World War the registration officers contained in the Representation United Kingdom debt to the United States amounted of the People (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2008. to $4,368 million (at 1934 exchange rates this was around £866 million). Repayments of the debt were made between 1923 and 1931. In 1931 President Hoover Employment: Agency Workers of the United States proposed a one-year moratorium Question on all war debts, which allowed extensive international discussions on the general problems of debt repayment Asked by Lord Hylton to be held. However no satisfactory agreement was To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they reached. In the absence of such an agreement no ensure that employment agencies and gangmasters payments have been made to, or received from, other explain employment rights and entitlements to their nations since 1934. workers. [HL1682]

Deer The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Question Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform & Cabinet Office (Baroness Vadera): The Asked by Lord Dykes Government are running a sustained programme to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what result raise awareness of employment rights among vulnerable they expect from recent measures to reduce the workers, including those working for employment agencies densities of wild deer roaming in sensitive areas. or gangmasters. [HL2179] On 9 February 2009, the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform launched a £1.2 million The Minister of State, Department of Energy and campaign aimed at agency workers. As part of this Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food campaign, my right honourable friend the Minister for and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): At Employment Relations and Postal Affairs wrote to increased populations, deer can impact negatively on more than 13,000 employment agencies in Great Britain woodland sites of special scientific interest (SSSIs) to promote guidance for employers on the and can affect structure and natural processes, regeneration businesslink.gov.uk website and to provide copies of a potential and quality indicators, leading to these SSSIs leaflet entitled Agency Workers: Know Your Rights. going into unfavourable condition. These materials outline the rights of agency workers WA 139 Written Answers[25 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 140 and the responsibilities of employment agencies towards businesses. Our intention is to provide some financial them. The leaflets are being distributed to agency protection for Workstep funded places only for the workers through trade unions, universities, refugee five-year term of the new contracts, bringing us groups, citizens advice bureaux and will soon be available to 2015. in jobcentres. The Government are not responsible for supported The Gangmasters Licensing Authority’s licensing businesses run by local authorities and the private and standards stipulate what licenced gangmasters must voluntary sectors and the non Workstep funded places do to ensure that workers’ rights are protected. Alongside provided in these businesses for disabled people. We these standards the GLA provides advice and guidance are not providing protection in the new contracts for for workers in 15 languages in leaflets and on the non Workstep funded places. authority’s website. Thousands of leaflets have been Remploy’s Enterprise Business arm currently comprises requested by gangmasters and businesses as well as a network of 54 local business sites spread across the voluntary groups, trade unions, foreign embassy consular UK. Remploy operates in nine business sectors covering services and citizens advice bureaux. The leaflets are both manufactured products and managed services. handed out by GLA officers during inspections and These include support services, logistics and recycling are small enough for a worker to conceal so that those as well as extended supply chain and higher added-value who are not confident to speak out at the time can manufacturing. Managed services are teams of disabled check their rights and contact the GLA at a later date. individuals delivering contracts such as CCTV operations and facilities management.

Employment: Work Experience Question Equality: Company Boards Asked by Lord Smith of Leigh Question Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will continue to support all sheltered places of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they employment so that they can continue to provide will make it compulsory for British companies to opportunities for disadvantaged groups to gain work appoint a substantial number of women to their experience in the current downturn. [HL2306] boards. [HL2211]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Luton): A new programme to improve specialist disability Reform & Cabinet Office (Baroness Vadera): The employment provision will be introduced from October Government do not intend to legislate to require 2010. The programme will replace Workstep, work companies to appoint a certain number of women to preparation, and the job introduction scheme. For the their boards. The Government, however, encourage first time, the full provision will be openly tendered on companies to draw on a wider pool of talent in making a national basis using the new DWP commercial strategy. appointments as diverse boardrooms provide a valuable This will enable greater numbers of disabled people mix of skills and experience. Board appointments are with more complex support needs to take up work, ultimately a matter for shareholders and need to be through the provision of support which is sufficiently recruited on the basis of merit. flexible to meet their needs. The new programme will provide flexible customised support for disabled people with a greater focus on job outcomes and progression. On 30 March we will be publishing a specification Flooding: India outlining the service we require suppliers to provide Question for the new programme. It will provide indicative budgets and customer volumes, provide an overview Asked by The Earl of Sandwich of the funding model and information about performance and contract management arrangements. This information To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they is provided to help prospective suppliers decide whether have provided assistance to the people of Bihar to take part in the first stage of the competition—the displaced by last year’s flooding and recently evicted pre-qualification questionnaire. Those suppliers successful from camps by their Government. [HL2202] at the pre-qualification questionnaire stage will be invited in July to progress to the invitation to tender stage of the competition. We expect to award contracts Lord Tunnicliffe: The Department for International in April 2010 and for the new programme to begin in Development (DfID) provided £1.15 million to UNICEF October 2010. for immediate assistance to those displaced in Bihar There are a total of 172 current Workstep by the Kosi River flooding. providers who hold 14,000 places. Of the total number, We are currently considering a further £2.5 million 93 providers have a supported business and Workstep of assistance to the Government of Bihar for infrastructure funds around 3,000 places within these supported rehabilitation activities in affected towns. WA 141 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 142

Gaza of reconstruction material which are urgently needed to help rebuild damaged and destroyed homes, schools, Question and hospitals. Asked by The Earl of Sandwich We continue to be concerned with the ongoing settlement activity, and will consistently urge Israel to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether freeze all settlement activity. The UK has recently compensation has been offered by Israel or the supported an EU statement, issued on 20 February international community to the people of the Shujaiya 2009, condemning the plans for a settlement construction district of Gaza for the destruction by an Israeli jet in the vicinity of Adam in the West Bank. of a clinic serving 80,000 people. [HL2201]

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Government Departments: IT Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): No such compensation Question has been offered by Israel. Asked by Lord Patten The international community pledged approximately $4.5 billion at the Sharm el-Sheikh conference on To ask Her Majesty’s Government which 2 March 2009. It is unclear exactly how much of this is information technology contracts with a value of new money, but the conference demonstrated the £50 million or over have been entered into by commitment of the international community to assist departments since 1997; and which of those have the people of Gaza. Restrictions on access continue to been completed to budget, to time and to specification. hamper humanitarian and reconstruction efforts. We [HL2251] have pressed the Israeli Government to allow freer access for vital supplies. The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): This information is not held centrally but by individual departments. Gaza and the West Bank Question Government Equalities Office: Asked by Lord Dykes Discrimination To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Question representations they will make to the Government Asked by Lord Ouseley of Israel about any violation of international law resulting from the closure of the Gaza crossings To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the and blockage of supplies for reconstruction, and Government Equalities Office monitors and assesses the occupation and settlements in the West Bank. government actions aimed at addressing any [HL2121] disadvantage that individuals experience because of their race, disability, age, gender, sexual orientation and religion or belief. [HL1942] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): We press the Israeli Government frequently to lessen the restrictions that The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall they place on Palestinians and to cease settlement of Blaisdon): Public Service Agreement 15 (Address building. the disadvantage that individuals experience because Although there is no permanent physical Israeli of their race, disability, age, gender, sexual orientation presence in Gaza, given the significant control that and religion or belief) is underpinned by statistical Israel has over Gaza’s borders, airspace and territorial indicators which are used to monitor performance. waters, Israel retains obligations under the Fourth Progress against these indicators is set out regularly by Geneva Convention as an occupying power. The Fourth the Government Equalities Office in its departmental Geneva Convention is clear than an occupying power reports. must co-operate in allowing the passage and distribution of relief consignments. The UK has consistently reiterated this message on numerous occasions along with our Guantanamo Bay: Binyam Mohamed concerns regarding the current humanitarian situation Question in Gaza. Asked by Lord Leach of Fairford My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has raised this with Isaac Herzog, the Israeli Minister To ask Her Majesty’s Government in light of the responsible for humanitarian access to Gaza. He also High Court’s conclusion in the case of Binyam reiterated this message at the reconstruction conference Mohamed that it is an independent crime to assist in Sharm el-Sheikh on 2 March 2009. My right honourable in concealing evidence of torture, whether the United friend the Secretary of State for International Kingdom will now be required to reveal any such Development also urged the Israelis, during his recent evidence contained in intelligence material provided visit to Gaza on 1 March 2009, for improved access by other countries; or whether the relevant intelligence- and to relax tough restrictions on the type of goods sharing protocols will override any such legal that are allowed across the border. This includes supplies requirement. [HL1559] WA 143 Written Answers[25 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 144

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): There was no such Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The UK has serious conclusion of the High Court. The case brought by concerns about the growing number of executions Mr Mohamed was a judicial review. It was not before taking place in Iran and the continued use of the death a criminal court and did not consider criminal issues. penalty, especially for minors. We oppose the use of The question of possible criminal wrongdoing that the death penalty in all circumstances. The rate of arose in the course of the judicial review was referred executions has grown year-on-year since 2005. There to the Attorney-General. This is, as the court were more than 300 executions in 2007 and 318 in acknowledged, the proper legal process. 2008. Iran has so far executed at least 60 people this year alone, including one juvenile. We continue to take all available opportunities, Health: Cancer Research bilaterally and through the EU, to make clear to the Question Iranian authorities our concerns about human rights abuses, and Iran’s use of capital punishment in particular. Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick We have raised concerns about the overall use of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they death penalty in Iran, and individual death penalty intend to increase funding for research into treatments cases, with the Iranian authorities at least six times this year, bilaterally and through the EU. In December against aggressive prostate tumours. [HL2340] 2008 we co-sponsored a resolution on Iran’s human rights situation in the UN General Assembly. The The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, resolution expresses deep concern at “the continuing Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The high incidence of executions carried out in the absence usual practice of the department’s National Institute of internationally recognised safeguards, including public for Health Research and of the Medical Research executions of juveniles”. We also raised our concerns Council is not to ring-fence funds for expenditure on in our statement to the Human Rights Council in particular topics: research proposals in all areas compete March 2009. for the funding available. Both organisations welcome applications for support into any aspect of human health and these are subject to peer review and judged Legal Aid in open competition, with awards being made on the basis of the scientific quality of the proposals made. Question Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill Health: Homeopathy To ask Her Majesty’s Government what cuts Question have been made in the family legal aid budgets as regards (a) public law cases where children are Asked by Lord Clement-Jones alleged to be at risk of significant harm and may be permanently separated from their birth family; (b) To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether primary private law cases involving decisions about where care trusts can require patients being referred to the children should live and with whom they should Royal London Homeopathic Hospital to provide have contact; and (c) financial cases where mothers evidence of the clinical effectiveness of any treatment and children seek financial support from fathers before referral is permitted. [HL2281] who seek to hide or minimise their needs. [HL1563]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The of Justice (Lord Bach): On 12 February 2009 the Government do not maintain a position on any Government announced changes to the family graduated complementary or alternative medicine treatments and fee scheme for barristers (Official Report, col. WS 116). it is the responsibility of the National Health Service In the past five years legal aid payments to family to make decisions on what types of services or treatments barristers have increased unsustainably by more than they will commission and fund. In considering a referral 30 per cent from £74 million to almost £100 million for any type of treatment, a general practitioner would annually with no commensurate increase in case load. need to take into consideration safety, evidence of Our changes reduce payments to family barristers by clinical and cost effectiveness as well as the availability £6.5 million annually, and help us to avoid reducing of suitably qualified and regulated practitioners. services to the public in order to meet the rising cost of barristers’ fees. Iran Assuming the same volume and type of cases using counsel in the future as in 2007-08, our changes will Question mean the following net reductions in future expenditure Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass on barristers’ fees: (a) public law care proceedings work by 4.2 per cent (£2 million per annum), (b) private To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment law children cases by 9.3 per cent (£2.9 million), they have made of the number of executions in (c) ancillary relief cases by 16 per cent (£1.6 million) Iran; and what representations they have made to but from an unsustainably high base. It is incumbent the United Nations on this issue. [HL2253] on all those paid by the taxpayer to ensure that taxes WA 145 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 146 are spent as effectively and efficiently as possible. Palestine However, if in future volumes increase, or cases are longer or more complex, more will be spent. We are Question not reducing the legal advice and assistance provided Asked by Lord Dykes to children and families in family cases. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support they will give to any Palestinian National Unity London Living Wage Government emerging following the resignation of the present Palestinian Authority Prime Minister. Question [HL2063] Asked by Lord Harries of Pentregarth The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): Salam al-Fayyad is still Answer by Lord Myners on 8 December 2008 (Official the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority. We Report, House of Lords, col. 150), what was meant welcome his valuable contribution in the Occupied by the description of the independent charity, the Palestinian Territories and continue to work with him. Family Budget Unit, who undertook the work on minimum income standards, which supplied the evidence on which the London living wage is based, Pensions as “not transparent in its processes”. [HL572] Question Asked by Lord Laird The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): As was explained in the debate of To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the 8 December 2008, the Low Pay Commission ensures Written Answer by Lord Patel of Bradford on transparency is at the heart of the extensive process 3 March (WA 141), whether they are considering used to set the national minimum wage. The Low Pay introducing legislation to allow public service pensions Commission invites the Government to provide evidence, to be reduced if there has been a decrease in prices. along with trade unions, employers’ organisations, [HL2000] academics and voluntary organisations, setting the economic and non-economic backdrop to their The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, recommendations on national minimum wage rates. Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of To enable it to advise and make recommendations to Luton): How any adjustments to the level of public Government, it also undertakes extensive research, service pensions in relation to prices will be determined analysis, consultation and fact-finding visits throughout during 2009-10 will be considered in the light of the UK to meet employers, employees and representative developments over the year ahead, including the actual organisations. The Low Pay Commission’s conclusions levels of prices. are set out in a 200 page evidence-based report. Petitions Questions Narrative Reporting Asked by Lord Greaves Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Asked by Lord Sharman paper petitions the Prime Minister received in (a) 2007 and (b) 2008; what steps were taken to publicise To ask Her Majesty’s Government what guidance them; and whether they will place the text of the is produced for companies on narrative reporting in petitions received and the number of signatures in the light of the financial crisis and the Climate the Library of the House. [HL2143] Change Act 2008. [HL2072] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what procedures are in place for receiving, recording, acknowledging, dealing with and responding to paper petitions The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, from members of the public that are submitted to Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory the Prime Minister, and informing the petitioners Reform & Cabinet Office (Baroness Vadera): The Financial of any action that is taken in response to a petition. Reporting Council (FRC) is responsible for standards of corporate reporting and in that capacity issues [HL2144] guidance as well as monitoring compliance with the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the Prime requirements of the Companies Act 2006. The FRC Minister is informed of paper petitions submitted has recently issued guidance on various reporting by members of the public to 10 Downing Street issues to help companies with reporting in the present when he is away from 10 Downing Street; and what economic conditions. In line with Section 83 of the information he is presented with about such petitions Climate Change Act, the Government are committed upon his return. [HL2145] to producing guidance to help those reporting on their To ask Her Majesty’s Government for how long greenhouse gas emissions by 1 October 2009. The paper petitions submitted by members of the public Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to the Prime Minister are stored; where the petitions will consult widely on the guidance prior to publication are stored; how the petitions are disposed of; and in September. what information is retained. [HL2163] WA 147 Written Answers[25 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 148

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the Prime The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Minister is informed of petitions submitted to the Office (Lord West of Spithead): Under the Human e-petition scheme of the Number 10 Downing Street Rights Act, all legislation, including public order offences website; how regularly such information is presented so far as it is possible to do, must be read and given to the Prime Minister; and when was the last time it effect in a way which is compatible with the European happened. [HL2164] Convention on Human Rights. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps The investigation of public order offences by the the Prime Minister takes to ensure that paper police and the training which underpins the exercise of and electronic petitions submitted to him by police powers must be carried out in a way which does members of the public are raised with the relevant not conflict with the principles set out in the convention. departments of state; and whether the Prime Minister The Human Rights Act itself and ultimately the courts is informed of and consulted on what action they provide a check if the police were to act in a non- plan to take in responding to petitions. [HL2165] compliant, discriminatory way. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many paper petitions submitted by members of the public Post Office to the Prime Minister were received in person by Question the Prime Minister in (a) 2007, and (b) 2008; and whether they will place the text of the petitions and Asked by Lord Dykes the number of signatures in the Library of the House. [HL2166] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they would accept foreign shareholdings of the Post To ask Her Majesty’s Government what criteria, Office if the chosen operator were a monopoly or aside from security, are applied when deciding whether near-monopoly in its home territory. [HL2065] to allow a paper petition to be presented to the door of 10 Downing Street as opposed to the gate to Downing Street; and whether those criteria require The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, a minimum number of signatures. [HL2167] Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform & Cabinet Office (Baroness Vadera): The Post To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Office will remain entirely owned by Government. The groups attempting to deliver paper petitions to the Government will judge the suitability of the potential door of 10 Downing Street intended for the Prime partner in Royal Mail under the terms of the Bill we Minister and signed by members of the public have have published against a number of criteria, the most been refused access to Downing Street on grounds important of which are: other than those relating to security or timing in the ability to add value to Royal Mail as a whole, (a) 2007, and (b) 2008; what the subjects of those including by assisting in the transformation of Royal petitions were; and what reasons were given for Mail’s letters business and the modernisation of the each refusal. [HL2168] network; and the price offered for a minority stake or partnership and the ability to finance the investment. The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall of Blaisdon): As has been the practice of successive Governments, petitions delivered in person to Downing Public Bodies Street are administered by the Metropolitan Police. Questions From June 2008 to December 2008 approximately 590 petitions were received containing approximately Asked by Lord Ashcroft 4,498,600 signatures. This includes petitions received in the post and those delivered in person. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether any United Kingdom bank which they control or in Once petitions are received by the Prime Minister’s which they have a shareholding has been asked to Office they are recorded and dealt with in the same look at businesses in difficulty in any parliamentary manner as standard correspondence. The Prime Minister’s constituency in which the sitting Member of Parliament Office makes arrangements for a reply to be sent and has a majority fewer than 5,000. [HL1802] acknowledges receipt of the petition. Full texts of petitions received are not held. The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): No UK bank has been asked to look at businesses in difficulty by reference to their location Police: Discrimination in any parliamentary constituency in which the sitting Member of Parliament has a majority fewer than Question 5,000. Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch UK Financial Investments (UKFI) has been set up to manage the Government’s investments in financial To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps institutions. These investments currently comprise holdings they are taking to ensure that the police do not in RBS, holdings in the Lloyds Banking Group, and in discriminate on the ground of faith when investigating due course, UKFI will manage the 100 per cent ownership public order offences. [HL2239] of Northern Rockand Bradford & Bingley.It’s overarching WA 149 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 150 objectives are to protect and create value to the taxpayer performance closely and to take vigorous action with as a shareholder, with due regard to financial stability departments who fail to answer Written Questions and acting in a way that promotes competition. within prescribed timescales. Asked by Lord Ouseley Schools: Truancy To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by the Lord President (Baroness Question Royall of Blaisdon) on 10 March (HL1612), who Asked by Lord Bradley are the interested parties being consulted regarding To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many the concept and design of a strategic duty on public families in the City of Manchester were (a) imprisoned bodies to address socio-economic disadvantage. or (b) fined for their children’s non-attendance at [HL2106] school in each of the past three years. [HL2269]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness of Blaisdon): My officials have been speaking to Morgan of Drefelin): The Ministry of Justice collects representatives from those public bodies who would data for England and Wales on prosecutions brought be affected by this proposed duty, in addition to against parents under the Education Act 1996 for the representatives from other public sector bodies, the offence under Section 444(1) of failing to secure their private sector, the third sector, trade unions, and others. child’s regular attendance at school; and for prosecutions under Section 444(1A), the aggravated offence of knowing that their child is failing to attend school regularly. It Public Service Agreements is possible, because of the way courts record data, that some data are collected under the more general heading Question of various offences under the Education Act 1996. Asked by Lord Ouseley The information on the number of parents sentenced and given fines or immediate custodial sentences in To ask Her Majesty’s Government how programmes the Greater Manchester area is detailed in the table arising from public service agreements are monitored below. The Ministry of Justice only collects information and assessed . [HL1941] on prosecutions based on police force regions. The department also collects and publishes data on penalty notices (fines) issued by local authorities in The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury England to parents for not ensuring their child’s regular (Lord Myners): Progress on delivering the public service attendance at school. The figures for the last three agreements (PSAs) is reported by departments to school academic years are detailed in the table below. Parliament in the departmental annual reports (published Data are collected only at local authority level. in spring/summer) and the autumn performance reports. Adults sentenced for child truanting offences (1) in the Greater Manchester The first autumn performance reports assessing Police Force Area, 2005-07 progress to date on the 2007 Comprehensive Spending Immediate Review PSAs were published at the end of 2008. Fined Custody

Senior responsible owners are appointed for each 2005 Parent failing to 176 58 PSA, and are responsible for monitoring and driving secure their child’s delivery of the PSA including internal reporting of regular attendance at progress. The Prime Minister’s Delivery Unit also school advises the Prime Minister and the Chancellor throughout Parent knowing that 01 the spending period. their child is failing to attend school regularly without reasonable Questions for Written Answer: Unanswered justification to cause Questions him or her to attend school Question 2006 Parent failing to 492 0 Asked by Lord Tebbit secure their child’s regular attendance at To ask the Leader of the House further to her school Written Answer on 4 March (WA 169–70), what Parent knowing that 51 4 were the constraints which delayed the Answer to their child is failing Lord Corbett of Castle Vale’s Question of 3 December to attend school 2008 until 3 March, and that of Lord Hylton of regularly without reasonable 8 December 2008 until 11 February. [HL2093] justification to cause him or her to attend The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall school of Blaisdon): I am not aware of the precise circumstances 2007 Parent failing to 481 1 which caused the delays referred to, but have made it secure their child’s very clear to departments that I regard such delays regular attendance at school as wholly unacceptable. I will continue to monitor WA 151 Written Answers[25 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 152

Adults sentenced for child truanting offences (1) in the Greater Manchester The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Police Force Area, 2005-07 Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): Immediate Information on the number of people in the city of Fined Custody Manchester who have received support from the National Parent knowing that 105 0 Health Service to stop smoking in each of the past their child is failing four years is not available in the format requested. to attend school However, information on the number of people setting regularly without reasonable a quit date and successfully quitting through the NHS justification to cause Stop Smoking Services is available for Manchester him or her to attend primary care trust (PCT) in 2006-07 and 2007-08, and school for Central Manchester, North Manchester and South (1) These data are extracted on the principal offence basis. These Manchester PCTs in 2004-05, 2005-06 and 2006-07. figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. The information is available from the following Although care is taken when processing and analysing the publications, which have already been placed in the returns the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent Library. in any large scale recording system. Manchester PCT was formed on 1 October 2006 Source: OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice. following the merger of Central Manchester, North Ref: Sent(OMSAS)088-09 (18/03/2009). Manchester and South Manchester PCTs. School Academic Year—Penalty Manchester Statistics on NHS Stop Smoking Services in England, Notices England LA April 2007 to March 2008. This information can be found in table 3.5 on page 28. 1 August 2005 to 1 September 2006 12,150 118 2 September 2006 to 31 August 2007 14,625 195 Statistics on NHS Stop Smoking Services in England, September 2007 to 31 August 2008 18,291 278 April 2006 to March 2007. Information for Central Manchester, North Manchester and South Manchester Department for Children, Schools and Families data 2009. PCTs (old breakdown) can be found in table 2.12 on page 19. Information for Manchester PCT (new breakdown) can be found in table 5.4 on page 65. Small Businesses Statistics on NHS Stop Smoking Services in England, Question April 2005 to March 2006. This information can be found in table 4.12 on page 38. Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno Statistics on NHS Stop Smoking Services in England, To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many April 2004 to March 2005. This information can be small businesses closed in (a) each English region, found in table 19 on page 53. (b) Scotland, (c) Wales and (d) Northern Ireland in Notes: (1) each quarter of 2008, and (2) the first two 1. The Information Centre for health and social care collects data months of 2009. [HL2170] from the NHS Stop Smoking Services as part of the NHS Stop Smoking Services quarterly monitoring returns forms, undertaken since 2005 on behalf of the Department of Health. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, 2. On the basis that the clinical viewpoint tends to be that a client Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory should not be counted as a ’failure’ if he/she has smoked in the Reform & Cabinet Office (Baroness Vadera): Official difficult first days after the quit date, a client is counted as having data relating to small business closures in 2008 and the successfully quit smoking if he/she has not smoked at all since two weeks after the quit date. The four-week follow-up (and first two months of 2009 are not yet available. Carbon Monoxide (CO) validation, if appropriate) must be The Office for National Statistics is responsible for completed within six weeks of the quit date. Persons not producing annual statistics on the number of small contacted within this time are treated as lost to follow-up for businesses opening and closing in the UK. This publication, evaluation purposes. Business Demography, is available on its website at www. 3. Only people who set a quit date through the NHS Stop statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/Product.asp?vlnk=15186. Smoking Services are included in the quarterly monitoring returns; those who attend the service but do not set a quit date The latest publication (released 28 November 2008) are therefore excluded. relates to business births and deaths in 2007. Data relating to 2008 will not be published until autumn 2009, and 2009 data will not be published until autumn Taxation 2010. Question Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch Smoking To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion Question of British tax revenue goes to the European Union via United Kingdom contributions to the European Asked by Lord Bradley Union budget; and what is the amount involved. [HL2384] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many people in the City of Manchester have received The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury support from the National Health Service to stop (Lord Myners): There is no direct link between tax smoking in each of the past four years. [HL2296] revenue and UK contributions to the EC Budget. WA 153 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 154

Details of the sources of revenue by which member The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury states finance the EC Budget can be found on page 37 (Lord Myners): Data on personal debt at the total UK of the 2008 European Community finances White level are provided by the Bank of England. Total Paper (Cm 7462), a copy of which is available in the personal debt in the UK at the end of 2006 was Library of the House. £1.29 trillion, at the end of 2007 £1.41 trillion, and at the end of 2008 £1.46 trillion. No data are yet available for 2009. Data on average personal debt, or Visas data broken down by countries or regions, are not Question available. Asked by Lord Avebury To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the website of the British consulate-general in Hong Kong lists Waterways: Pollution British Indian Ocean Territory as a country which British National (Overseas) passport holders can Question visit without a visa; and under what circumstances Asked by Lord Teverson it is possible for a British National (Overseas) to visit the British Indian Ocean Territory. [HL2227] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they intend to take to reduce the pollution of the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth waters of the River Fal in Cornwall; and whether Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): I thank the noble Lord they will investigate the causes of the continued for alerting us to the fact that the website of the apparent decline of its water quality. [HL2153] British consulate-general in Hong Kong lists the British Indian Ocean Territory (BLOT) as a country which British National (Overseas) passport holders can visit without a visa. This is incorrect. Following the judgment The Minister of State, Department of Energy and by the House of Lords on 22 October 2008, all visitors Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food to the territory require a permit. The BIOT Administration and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The have asked the British consulate-general to amend Environment Agency collects monthly samples of water its list. from the River Fal Estuary in Cornwall to assess the quality of the water. These samples do not indicate The BIOT Administration do allow private yachts that the estuary is polluted or that water quality is to moor at certain sites in the outer atolls of Peros declining overall. Banhos and Salomon. Each yacht has to apply for a permit in advance from the BIOT Administration. However, during heavy rainfall, run-off from fields BIOT customs and immigration officials use the BIOT which may contain slurry and from overloaded sewers patrol vessel, the “Pacific Marlin”, to check such can have localised and short-term impacts. The visitors. Environment Agency is therefore working with farmers to ensure that farm management plans are in place to prevent and minimise the degree of run-off to the Wales: Personal Debt estuary during heavy rain. Question Significant investment by South West Water has Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno also been made in the sewage systems which discharge into the estuary. Each main sewage works has full To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the treatment facilities, which include the use of ultra average personal debt in Wales in (a) 2006, (b) 2007, violet disinfection in recognition of the potential impact (c) 2008, and (d) 2009. [HL1987] of bacterial contamination on shellfish beds. Wednesday 25 March 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Bribery Bill...... 41 Housing: Rural Areas ...... 45 Payments Council...... 46 EU: Telecoms Council ...... 42 Secure Training Centres: Oakhill ...... 48 EU: Transport Council ...... 43 Waste Management ...... 48

Wednesday 25 March 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Abortion...... 131 Guantanamo Bay: Binyam Mohamed ...... 142

Aluminium ...... 134 Health: Cancer Research...... 143

Armed Forces: Accommodation ...... 134 Health: Homeopathy ...... 143

Armed Forces: Deployment ...... 134 Iran...... 143

Armed Forces: Parades ...... 135 Legal Aid...... 144

Banking ...... 135 London Living Wage ...... 145

Banking: Bank of Scotland (Ireland)...... 136 Narrative Reporting...... 145 Palestine...... 146 Benefits...... 136 Pensions...... 146 Brazil: Sex Tourism...... 136 Petitions...... 146 Companies Act 2006...... 137 Police: Discrimination...... 147 Debt: United States...... 137 Post Office ...... 148 Deer...... 137 Public Bodies ...... 148 Electoral Register: Northern Ireland...... 138 Public Service Agreements ...... 149 Employment: Agency Workers...... 138 Questions for Written Answer: Unanswered Questions.... 149 Employment: Work Experience ...... 139 Schools: Truancy ...... 150 Equality: Company Boards...... 140 Small Businesses ...... 151

Flooding: India...... 140 Smoking ...... 151

Gaza ...... 141 Taxation...... 152

Gaza and the West Bank...... 141 Visas ...... 153

Government Departments: IT...... 142 Wales: Personal Debt ...... 153

Government Equalities Office: Discrimination ...... 142 Waterways: Pollution ...... 154 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL572] ...... 145 [HL1518] ...... 134 Col. No. Col. No. [HL1559] ...... 142 [HL2165] ...... 147

[HL1563] ...... 144 [HL2166] ...... 147

[HL1682] ...... 138 [HL2167] ...... 147

[HL1802] ...... 148 [HL2168] ...... 147

[HL1850] ...... 136 [HL2170] ...... 151

[HL1941] ...... 149 [HL2179] ...... 137

[HL1942] ...... 142 [HL2201] ...... 141

[HL1987] ...... 153 [HL2202] ...... 140

[HL2000] ...... 146 [HL2211] ...... 140

[HL2013] ...... 137 [HL2227] ...... 153

[HL2049] ...... 135 [HL2239] ...... 147

[HL2063] ...... 146 [HL2240] ...... 135 [HL2251] ...... 142 [HL2065] ...... 148 [HL2253] ...... 143 [HL2071] ...... 137 [HL2269] ...... 150 [HL2072] ...... 145 [HL2275] ...... 131 [HL2085] ...... 138 [HL2276] ...... 131 [HL2093] ...... 149 [HL2279] ...... 132 [HL2106] ...... 149 [HL2280] ...... 133 [HL2121] ...... 141 [HL2281] ...... 143 [HL2137] ...... 136 [HL2296] ...... 151 [HL2143] ...... 146 [HL2306] ...... 139

[HL2144] ...... 146 [HL2340] ...... 143

[HL2145] ...... 146 [HL2342] ...... 134

[HL2153] ...... 154 [HL2348] ...... 134

[HL2163] ...... 146 [HL2384] ...... 152

[HL2164] ...... 147 [HL2387] ...... 136 Volume 709 Wednesday No. 54 25 March 2009

CONTENTS

Wednesday 25 March 2009 Questions Building Societies...... 651 Supreme Court: Retirement Age...... 653 Israel: Arms Embargo...... 655 Privacy: Government Databases...... 658 Coroners and Justice Bill First Reading ...... 660 Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2009 Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating Order 2009 Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating (Northern Ireland) Order 2009 Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2009 Occupational Pension Schemes (Levy Ceiling) Order 2009 Pension Protection Fund (Pension Compensation Cap) Order 2009 Financial Assistance Scheme and Incapacity Benefit (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2009...... 660 Occupational Pension Schemes (Contracting-out) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 European Parliamentary Elections (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2009 Motions to Approve...... 661 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill [HL] Report (First Day) ...... 661 Corporation Tax Bill Second Reading and remaining stages...... 721 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill [HL] Report (First Day) (continued)...... 730 Grand Committee Local Government (Structural Changes) (Miscellaneous Amendments and Other Provision) Order 2009 ...... GC 195 Cornwall (Electoral Arrangements and Consequential Amendments) Order 2009 Systematics and Taxonomy (S&TC Reports) Debated...... GC 208 Written Statements...... WS 41 Written Answers...... WA 131