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Da´Il E´Ireann Vol. 697 Tuesday, No. 2 8 December 2009 DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DA´ IL E´ IREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Tuesday, 8 December 2009. Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach ………………………………… 257 Minister for Health and Children Priority Questions …………………………… 269 Other Questions …………………………… 277 Adjournment Debate Matters …………………………… 285 Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 285 Requests to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 32 ……………… 293 Order of Business ……………………………… 294 Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions: Motion ………………… 307 Overseas Missions: Motion …………………………… 307 Regional Fisheries Boards: Motion ………………………… 308 Estimates for Public Services 2009: Vote 19 — Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Supplementary) …………… 308 Vote 20 — Garda Sı´ocha´na (Supplementary) …………………… 308 Vote 22 — Courts Service (Supplementary) …………………… 309 Vote 27 — Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Supplementary) … … 309 Vote 30 — Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Supplementary) … … … 309 Vote 31 — Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Supplementary) ……………… 309 Vote 34 — Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Supplementary) …………… 309 Vote 37 — Army Pensions (Supplementary) …………………… 309 Vote 40 — Health Service Executive (Supplementary) ………………… 309 Vote 41 — Office of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs (Supplementary) … … … 310 Communications Regulation (Premium Rate Services) Bill 2009: Instruction to Committee … … 319 Communications Regulation (Premium Rate Services) Bill 2009: Instruction to Committee (resumed) ……………………… 342 Order for Report Stage …………………………… 345 Report Stage ……………………………… 345 Adjournment Debate Hospital Accommodation…………………………… 364 Water and Sewerage Schemes ………………………… 366 Flood Relief ……………………………… 368 Malting Barley Industry …………………………… 370 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 373 DÁIL ÉIREANN ———— Dé Máirt, 8 Nollaig 2009. Tuesday, 8 December 2009. ———— Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 2.30 p.m. ———— Paidir. Prayer. ———— Ceisteanna — Questions. ———— Standards in Public Office. 1. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach his plans to amend the code of conduct for officeholders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35239/09] 2. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach his plans to introduce amendments to the code of conduct for officeholders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37272/09] 3. Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach if it is planned to amend the code of conduct for officeholders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [44306/09] The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together. The code of conduct for officeholders was drawn up by the Government pursuant to section 10(2) of the Standards in Public Office Act 2001, following consultation with the Standards in Public Office Commission, and was published in July 2003. Deputies will be aware that the Ethics in Public Office (Amendment) Bill 2007 provides for changes to the ethics framework. A review of the code will be carried out, in consultation with the Standards in Public Office Commission, after that Bill has been enacted. Deputy Enda Kenny: The recent revelations about expenses incurred by Ministers have shocked and outraged the country. I do not think any Minister set out deliberately to do something like this, or at least I hope not. Within the understanding of their responsibilities as Ministers, and the requirements of the Ethics in Public Office Act, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government spent \6,500 printing leaflets for delivery in his constituency, which cost a further \4,500. There are in-house printing facilities here and party membership delivers the leaflets. The Minister for Defence incurred a charge of \46,000 a couple of years ago delivering Fianna Fáil leaflets in his constituency, which the taxpayer paid for. This is just not on, as the Taoiseach knows. In view of this continuing litany of expenses and charges, with \9,000 incurred by the Tánaiste to keep a limousine waiting at a hotel 1.5 km from a meeting in Switzerland, has the Taoiseach 257 Ceisteanna — 8 December 2009. Questions [Deputy Enda Kenny.] introduced changes that clearly require Ministers know in advance that these charges will be incurred so the taxpayer will not be continually outraged by the collation of such charges? Has he introduced a minimum standard for officeholders when they go abroad above which, if they want to stay in a higher class facility, they pay the difference? That way the public would understand that they are there to do their job on behalf of the country. We must not have a continuous litany of gross excess in terms of the expenses incurred by the taxpayer. In view of the Ethics in Public Office Act, have there been changes on the instruction of the Taoiseach? The Taoiseach: The next set of questions deals with that issue. This question relates to whether there are any changes envisaged in the code of conduct. That code of conduct does not stand in isolation, it stands as part of a wider ethics framework established by the Ethics in Public Office Act 1995 and the Standards in Public Office Act 2001. Section 10(7) of the Standards in Public Office Act binds officeholders to have regard to and be guided by the code. The code cannot impose any new requirements that are not already set out in legislation; it mainly attempts to provide guidance at a level of detail that would be difficult to express in legislation. I am not aware that any of the issues raised by Deputy Kenny has been brought to the attention of the Standards in Public Office Commission in any way or is in breach of the code of conduct. In the new economic circumstances in which we find ourselves, all Departments and agencies are required to be mindful of the costs of conducting business in every respect, both at home and abroad. That is being done and various subsistence and travel allowances have been cut extensively and, rightly so, in present circumstances. Obviously arrangements have been put in place to deal with that. The important point to make regarding the code of conduct is that it does not stand in isolation, it is a more detailed code in respect of the statutory provisions laid down by the 1995 and 2001 Acts. Deputy Enda Kenny: I understand the Department of Finance set out guidelines that apply in the case of Ministers who go abroad. Are those guidelines published and are they available? For example, if the Minister for Health and Children attends a conference in Italy, Spain or France, does she know in advance the arrangements made for her? Obviously Ministers are very conscious of the requirement not to be seen or perceived to be outside normal guidelines. Are those guidelines published by the Department of Finance? In respect of the Ethics in Public Office (Amendment) Bill 2007, which I raised with the Taoiseach some weeks ago, the change was to increase the value of a gift from \650 to \2,000 for Ministers and persons serving in parliamentary office. Given the changed circumstances that apply, does the Taoiseach consider a gift costing \2,000 for a Minister attending a function is excessive? Does he consider it should be reduced to a more realistic level? The Standards in Public Office Commission has been seeking an opportunity to initiate an inquiry where it considers it is of public interest. When the Taoiseach was Minister for Finance he refused that request. He made the point, I think, that it could have serious consequences for those who become the subject of an inquiry. I can understand that. Persons who know their remit obviously would be vindicated in terms of any inquiry that might arise. What is his view on it now as Taoiseach? If a request were received again from the Standards in Public Office Commission to initiate an inquiry if it considered it was in the public interest, would it receive favourable consideration? 258 Ceisteanna — 8 December 2009. Questions The Taoiseach: These matters are dealt with in another set of questions with which we will deal later. In any event, to be of assistance I will deal with any questions that arise. In regard to the third supplementary on the issue of allowing the office to initiate an inquiry, I believe a balance has to be struck between a proper investigation where there is a potential breach of guidelines and the good reputation of Deputies, Senators or Ministers being upheld. If there is a problem, a complaint should be made. On foot of a complaint an investigation should take place. If there is a problem in the public domain that the people feel is of a serious nature, presumably a complaint would be made by an affected or third party. On that basis it would trigger an investigative mechanism. I do not believe it is necessarily right that the investigator should be able to instigate an investigation at his or her own volition, with all the impact that would have, and find at the end that there was nothing at the back of it. All the loss of reputation and distress caused to the person against whom the complaint was made would have been without foundation. A balance has to be struck. The legislation sets out that balance and that is where things stand. Processes should be initiated on foot of complaints not on foot of someone deciding he or she wants to proceed with a process because of something out in the ether or because of something someone heard or said. One should put it on paper, make a complaint, deal with it properly and let us have fairness all around. On the question of the amounts considered in the Ethics in Public Office (Amendment) Bill, the initial amount of \650 was mentioned 14 years ago. We are considering changing it for today’s values and to set it for 14 years’ hence as well.
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