Dialogues: The David Zwirner Podcast Marcel Dzama & Will Butler [SOUNDBITE; WILL BUTLER: Good afternoon, hello. MARCEL DZAMA: Thanks a lot. My name is Will Butler. I am a person who plays in a band called Arcade Fire and also does other music LZ: How did you guys first meet? I mean it was kind of and things like that. I live down in old Brooklyn your idea, Marcel, to set this up when we were talking. halfway to Coney Island. MARCEL DZAMA: I’m Marcel I was curious. WB: Oh, I see. Dzama. I’m an artist and I also live near Will.] MD: Let’s see, probably through Spike Jonze, I [MUSIC FADES IN] imagine. WB: I’m sure we just met at a show or something. LUCAS ZWIRNER: From David Zwirner, this is Dialogues—a podcast about creativity and ideas. MD: I think it was at Where the Wild Things Are opening. WB: Oh. [SOUNDBITE; MARCEL DZAMA: I listen to a lot of news and then that just finds its way into the drawings. MD: I think, if memory serves me right. I almost feel as an exorcism to get it out of me so I can go to sleep.] WB: Yeah, I think that’s actually right. We met at the premiere for Where the Wild Things Are at the Lincoln LZ: I’m Lucas Zwirner, Editorial Director of David Center. MD: The New York premiere. Zwirner Books. In every episode on the podcast we’ll introduce you to a surprising pairing. We’re taking LZ: Will, when did you get into music? Did you grow the artists we work with at the gallery and putting up playing instruments? Is your family musical? How them in conversation with some of the world’s most did those interests come about? extraordinary makers and thinkers. WB: My great-grandfather was a man named King [MUSIC FADES OUT] Driggs, William King Driggs, who was the last son of the second wife of a polygamist homesteader in Utah LZ: Today’s pairing: the artist Marcel Dzama and the in the late nineteenth century, and he always wanted musician Will Butler. Marcel was born and raised to be a musician. He went to Chicago and got six in Winnipeg, Canada, and he’s best known for his months of music school, but his wife was pregnant and fantastical pen-and-ink drawings. From bears to went home and he was very disappointed. And then soldiers and talking trees, his figures inhabit a surreal he had this big brood of children and he made them universe entirely of his own invention. Marcel also all play instruments and none of them wanted to, but makes art films, theater and dance sets, dioramas, and for Christmas he’d be like, I got you all instruments, album cover art for acts like Beck and They Might Be and then he would make them be like—it was kind of Giants. His work has been exhibited at MoMA, the a pre-vaudeville . They drove around the Old West Whitney, and the Kunsthalle Mannheim in Germany, playing shows at churches and literally getting run out among many others. Marcel also loves collaborating of town with pitchforks. He would get arrested. They with artists in other genres, and you can see his were at a show, and these men showed up and took production design and costumes in Amy Sedaris’s TV away all their instruments because they hadn’t—they show. He’s collaborated in a few different ways with were on layaway and they hadn’t made any payments. our other guest today: Will Butler of Arcade Fire. And then my grandma was writing about it and she said, Oh, and after the men took our instruments that’s Will grew up outside Houston, and his path took him when we learned how to sing harmony. Of course, to a New England boarding school and the Midwest Daddy was in jail that night so ten-year-old Carlton for college, before landing him in Montreal where he had to drive the car through the desert. That was joined his brother’s band, Arcade Fire. After several before they had roads, of course. So it was that. They albums, movie scores, and some solo work, Will keeps were like a family band and then they had a variety exploring new paths. In 2016, he put touring on hold show on TV in the ’60s called The King Family Show. for a year, while he completed a master’s degree at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government. LZ: Oh, wow. We’re so lucky to have them here today to speak WB: That’s what my mom grew up doing and playing about the intersection of music, visual arts, politics, shows and casinos in Lake Tahoe. and beyond. Marcel and Will, welcome to Dialogues. LZ: But a variety show, doesn’t that mean it was sort WILL BUTLER: Pleasure. of like all sorts of things would happen on the show. I mean different— Dialogues: The David Zwirner Podcast Marcel Dzama & Will Butler WB: Yeah, like comedy and skits and dancing and Top LZ: Wait, they were called the what? 20. But it was my mom and forty of her cousins and her six aunts and uncles. MD: The Los Bravos in Winnipeg. I don’t know if they exist anymore. I think they took over the Winnipeg LZ: So that’s the context in which you grew up scene. Yeah, they had stolen my dad’s motorcycle basically. I mean you weren’t on the variety show but and so my dad went down to the clubhouse and he you were directly, you were variety adjacent. had taken his father’s, I guess, a shotgun and sawed it down and had it in his coat and was like, I’m taking my WB: Yeah, variety adjacent. Being in a band was not a bike back. And there was just the mechanic that was negative, it was normal. So when I was a sophomore working there and he was like, Okay. There were these in college in Chicago, I took off a semester to go up to weird kind of stories in my family. He was obsessed Montreal to play in Arcade Fire with my brother. And with Vikings and things like that. And so he had made my parents weren’t like, That’s crazy. I cast you out of like battle axes and morning stars and things like this. the family. They were like, Okay, great. Just make sure So I’d seen him working on weird things in the garage that you graduate from college. and they were basically sculptures. He’d be welding and melting metal down and stuff like this. LZ: But your brother also wanted you to finish university? Because you then went back to school after LZ: But functional. I mean you could— MD: But yeah, all playing for, I guess, a semester or? functional. WB: Yeah, I went. So my sophomore year I went for six LZ: You could use the morning star. months to Montreal, and we kind of started recording Funeral and then Funeral came out in fall of 2004, MD: He used to make weapons for me and my which was the fall of my senior year of college. And neighbors, and we’d play knights and things like that. at that point, I knew my professors and was doing And then, of course, someone would come back independent studies and stuff, so I’d be like, Can I skip injured. school on Tuesday to go play on Conan, and they’d be like, Yes, you can go play on Conan. LZ: Get hurt. LZ: And Marcel, maybe you would talk a little bit about MD: Usually the neighbors thankfully. Yeah, but he your background. I mean what your parents did and also did paintings. He had paint-by-number-type how you came to what you are doing? things. But he wouldn’t use the chart. We had this giant Last Supper over our kitchen table that was MD: Well, my parents were kind of, I guess, working kind of interesting because he painted their faces class. So my dad was a baker. He worked at—I think all differently. Like it doesn’t have the same look as Safeway still exists in Canada and US, a little bit—so Leonardo’s, like they kind of look more— he worked at Safeway. And my mom was a part-time nurse. My dad was a biker before he was married and LZ: More Canadian. everything, so he had some interesting rebel stories, I guess. And so maybe that’s where the creativity came MD: Yeah, more Canadian. Yes, outsider art feeling to from, that side. it. My mom used to draw. I actually had a few of her drawing books like How to Draw Horses and things LZ: Like a gang, like in a biker— like that. I used to draw from those and yeah. Mainly I kind of, I basically ran out of coloring books and so MD: He had his own little gang, but they were fighting I started drawing my own. And that was, I guess, out with this other— WB: A collective, a biker collective. of poverty. And so I’d draw from these coloring books and re-color that image and then eventually I just MD: Yeah, maybe that’s why I like collaborations so drew my own images and not based off of what was much.