JULY 30,2002 CHEMICAL WEEKLY 129

INTERVIEW WITH DR. S. SIVARAM, DIRECTOR, NCL NCL looking to 'relationship model' to enhance association with Indian chemical industry Dr. Swaminathan Sivaram, a gradu- Dr. Sivaram has authored over 175 ods: the first being 1900-95, and the ate of IIT, Kanpur and the most authori- papers in peer reviewed journals. He second being 1995-2000/01. In 1990 tative polymer scientist in the country, has 75 patent applications to his credit, we were confronted with a challenge, did his Ph.D. from , and has been cited as inventor in 35 US which happened to be coincidental with in 1971. Following a brief stint at The patents. In addition to doing research, the economic crisis that the country was Institute Polymer Science, Akron, Dr. Sivaram is also an excellent re- going through in terms of balance of Ohio, USA, he joined Indian Petro- search organizer having developed a payments, foreign exchange and eco- chemical Corporation (IPCL) in 1973 highly motivated and productive team nomic factors. where he held senior level positions till of polymer scientists at NCL, collabo- he shifted to NCL in 1989 as Head of rating with industry, both in India and These had its own impact on labo- the Division of Polymer Chemistry. abroad, as well as government bodies. ratories like ours. In the year 1991-92 a laboratory, which was being financed His research interests are predomi- Dr. Sivaram serves on the editorial and funded exclusively by the govern- nantly in Polymer Synthesis which in- board of several international journals ment, in the 80s, found itself in a posi- clude anionic, GTP, Ziegler Natta, free in polymer science. These include, tion where the resources were suddenly radical and step growth ; Polymer International (Society of Che- lacking. high performance polymers and surface mical Industry, UK), International Jour- chemistry of polymers. He has success- nal of Polymeric Materials (Gordon & I actually recall, in 1991-92, when fully blended his research interests with Breach, USA) and Designed Mono- Dr. Mashelkar was the Director of the commercial realities and has contrib- mers and Polymers (VSP Publishers, laboratory, we had to even request uted significantly to the Indian and glo- The Netherlands). He serves as a Di- MSEB to collect the payment for their bal industry. He has over 200 publica- rector on the Board of Asian Paints In- bill on a deferred basis. This was the tions in international journals and 70 dia Ltd. and Apcotex Lattices P. Ltd. extent of the crisis that we faced, be- patents and has guided 23 PhD and sev- cause we did not have money to pay Dr. Sivaram took over as Director, eral M.Sc. students. our utilities bill. We requested the NCL, Pune early this month, following MSEB to reschedule the payment. the retirement of Dr. Paul Ratnasamy. Dr. Sivaram has received several In a brief interview with Chemical awards and honours including the It dawned on many of us, including Weekly he muses about the past per- Vasvik Award, FICCI Award in Physi- the then director Dr. Mashelkar, that if formance and future directions of NCL. cal Sciences and the Om Prakash this lab has to survive we have to learn Excerpts from the interview: Bhasin Awards for Science and Tech- to bring in our own resources. At that nology, the Millennium Medal of the Dr. Sivaram, How would you sum up time money was indeed a crucial fac- Indian Science Congress Association the 90's from NCL's standpoint? tor. We felt and expressed the need to and the Silver Medal of the Chemical go back and get income to the labora- Research Society of India. I look at this 10 years in two peri- tory from non-governmental sources.

He is a fellow of all the learned sci- "It dawned on many of us, entific societies in India, such as, the including the then director, Indian Academy of Sciences, Bangalore; the Indian National Science ' Dr. Mashelkar, that if this lab Academy, New Delhi; the National has to survive we have to learn Academy of Sciences, Allahabad and to bring in our own resources" the Indian National Academy of Engi- neering, New Delhi. He is also a fel- low of the Third World Academy of -- S. Sivaram Sciences, Trieste, Italy and the Asia- Director Pacific Academy of Materials. National Chemical Laboratory, Pune 130 CHEMICAL WEEKLY JULY 30, 2002

Interview

This model of leveraging external enabled us, within a short span of two "Even at its peak the R&D resource to grow the internal years, to scrap every obsolete facility, resources generated R&D of a corporate entity became im- especially in polymers, catalysts and to portant in the 1990s. The fall of the some extent in the area of organic proc- from contract research Berlin wall was to some extent ex- ess development, in terms of pilot plants with international tremely symbolic because the West and analytical equipments. companies was no started reaching into East Europe and Russia, and I think that they also started We have been repaying the princi- more than 18% of our looking at India at that time. ple and interest since 1995 from our own total budget" industry earnings. I feel that we have Thus the five years, 1989-95, paved been able to fulfil all the commitments Industry being the key source we had the way to the prosperity that Paul made to the lending agency. to reach out to it. [Ratnasamy] has talked about in his de- scription of the period 1995-01. These We asked ourselves two key ques- tions: Do we have any global opportu- That was not easy as the Indian in- initiatives were taken because we were nities to perform research? And if we dustry was also going through a period pushed into a corner and needed to sur- do, then can we have the facilities up of readjustment to a more liberalized vive. I believe that when pushed to the and running in the shortest possible economy. In fact, I remember Dr. corner human beings survive and, gen- time? The amount of Rs. 5 to 6 crore Mashelkar in 1992 telling me and my erally, survive well. needed could not have been obtained colleague, Mr.R.R.Hirwani, to write a from the government at that time and position paper on how NCL would cope Did your efforts pay off? this where the loan from ICICI helped. in an economy that is opening up. Yes, indeed. In fact when I came into this laboratory in 1989, most of How were these initiatives translated What about your strategy? the facilities had become obsolete. into business in the second phase be- tween 1995-01? During this period bringing in re- We had to take a loan from ICICI/ sources into the lab was a key focus as World Bank for something close to Rs. This was the pay back period. We it was vital for our survival, at least on 6 crore because there was no money had a steady flow of income from com- a short-term basis. Many of us went available from the government to pay panies outside India and within India. aggressively out in order to bring in this for refurbishment of research facilities. Our extra-budgetary earnings steadily money into the lab. increased over the years. This additional We realised that if we don't do that income enabled us to add new R&D At that time, many of us, and espe- we have no way of getting into indus- facilities. cially Dr. Mashelkar, articulated at sev- trial and contract research. These as- eral public platforms that Indian labo- signments come your way only when The Division of Polymer Chemistry ratories can perform world class re- you have the right facilities at your dis- was a special beneficiary because we search and, therefore, organisations posal. Customers pay for the services, successfully negotiated in 1994 a ma- from outside India can come to do re- not for capital investments. jor research contract with GE, USA. search in labs like NCL. He made his This relationship grew over the next first such speech in 1992 in Patiala, Taking a loan from ICICI was a seven years and ultimately led to a de- major step. The credit for this signifi- where he predicted that India will cision by GE to set up their own Corpo- cant decision goes to Dr. Mashelkar. emerge as a platform for global R&D. rate R&D centre in India at Bangalore. At that time it was unheard for research This was the opening up of yet an- laboratories to take a soft loan from in- We also have several research con- other window of opportunity. At least ternational lending agencies. tracts with companies from the US and that is how I look at it. The time was opportune because at the same time It was a kind of deal — you give us across the globe many companies were a loan using which we create new fa- "We could translate downsizing their own internal opera- cilities, which will, in turn, enhance our the learning from tions. They felt that it was a better op- ability to do more research for Indus-tries. This will generate an income tion to outsource their research opera- global companies to tions to labs and universities that have which will help pay back the loans. Indian companies" the requisite skills. This decision was taken in 1992 and JULY 30, 2002 CHEMICAL WEEKLY 131 Interview

Europe. However, I wish to emphasize felt that if we could do it for interna- If you ask an average scientist to put that this was not done at the cost of other tional companies, we could do it for in a commitment regarding the success activities at the lab. Even at its peak the them. Clearly, our credibility with In- failure in research, he shies away, with resources generated from contract re- dian companies improved. a "How do I know this will happen." In search with international companies companies, when they undertake re- was no more than 18% of our total In fact around 1997-98 we saw the search, the goal is well defined. budget. At the peak not more than 15 re-emergence of Indian companies in Whether you reach that goal or not de- scientist man years were devoted to re- terms of their thinking about growth. pends on many factors. But the impor- search with global companies. We could translate the learning from tant thing is that the goal is defined global companies to Indian companies. upfront. We have realized this and have What were the lessons learnt while This was very important for us to do. implemented the same in many con- doing business with global compa- We could analyse the cause and effect tracts signed and successfully com- nies? relationships in research, especially in pleted so far. This solves half the prob- the area of new product / process de- lem, but it takes quite a bit of learning. What happened in 1995 and beyond velopment in a more rational manner You have to quantify and put numbers gave us two benefits. It taught us a new than previously. when you specify deliverables. Quali- business model, and I am happy to say tative descriptions of deliverables are What were the weak points within Just not enough. "The risk of failure in your system when it comes to research should never deliverables? Yield or purity for a new process needs to be defined in terms of Rupees/ be a deterrent for a We learnt how to define deliver- kg or percentages. In many cases meth- scientist" ables, which was, in my opinion, one ods of measurement have to be defined of the weakest points of NCL. Way along with the values desired. Gener- we have been able to replicate this busi- back when I came here, we used to write ally when you ask your team to put ness model successfully with many In- research contracts where deliverables numbers against deliverables they are dian companies. The second benefit were defined rather vaguely. Much of hesitant. But, I say you have to. At the was that it taught us how to write con- the problems that we ran into with In- end of the project it is important for tracts and patents. dian companies was because of such both the laboratory and the customer ambiguities. to know whether we have succeeded or We learnt how to negotiate with not. There can be no ambiguities on this companies, which have immense legal One wrote one or two deliverables, account. This can be assured only if you clout-far superior to what a lab like but ignored a few others which were define your deliverables quantitatively NCL possesses. probably more important. When we and with utmost care. With most inter- worked with international companies national contracts, you have to put num- We could sit across the table and talk we learnt that the time and effort spent bers upfront and we are doing it. It has and that gave us the confidence about on defining deliverables were impor- been a good learning experience for us being able to deal with these people. tant. working with these international com- Most important is that we earned the panies. credibility of these people as they spoke How did you bring in a sense of well of us. In most cases, barring very accountability in research What were the gains coming out of rare occasions, the customer satisfac- projects? these global contracts? tion level has been, in my opinion, above average with global companies. We have improved a lot in terms of One of the things that I have found Almost all of them speak highly of the out is that scientists by nature are un- value that we have been able to create "We are working closely willing to be tied down. The risk of fail- to their research programmes. ure in research should never be a de- with Indian Companies Did this experience lead to better terrent for a scientist. He should recog- towards the objective of business prospects with Indian com- nize that when somebody is investing making strategic panies? his money in research, he understands the finite risk of failure. In case this un- technology plans for This has had a spill-over effect, in derstanding is lacking in our customer the growth of industry" the sense that many Indian companies then it is our job to enlighten him. 132 CHEMICAL WEEKLY JULY 30, 2002

Interview

Have you thought of any specific strengthen existing skills so that these "We must have the model for interacting with Indian resources and skills can support you. wisdom to change and companies — more on a relationship basis than on a transactional basis? How does all these this fit into devel- new vistas to chase" oping research skill sets within your In fact, we did it with Reliance in team? building a decent credibility over the 1995 and now they are one of our larg- years. We have aggressively pursued est customers. We are looking at more Companies can hire people for spe- patents as a goal and this has helped us objectively, the nature of our interac- cific jobs, but they find it difficult to in earning the respect of our potential tion with Indian companies and whether sustain a broad range of skills. A pub- customers. We are recognized as a labo- we can become an integral part of their licly funded research organization like ratory capable of innovation. We have growth. This will give us new opportu- NCL can become a host for a diverse learnt to negotiate and license IPR's to nities for R&D collaborations. range of skills and competencies, companies outside of India. We have which, in turn, can support the R&D in been able to create world class research What will be your criteria while industry. With increasing sophistication infrastructure at NCL. choosing such companies? in R&D in industry, NCL will have to create a unique space for itself. We have How are you balancing your For the past few years we have to differentiate ourselves from the re- budgetary challenges now? tended to move away from purely trans- search and technology competencies actional model of projects to more of a existing with our customers. It is my If we look at NCL's CSIR and non- relationship model, especially with view that laboratories like ours should CSIR budget share last year, it was 50- companies, which are large in size with build and sustain knowledge based 50. Out of the 50% of non-CSIR fund- multi-products and multi-locations. competencies in frontier areas of sci- ing around 8% was from international ence. This is something industry will companies and 12% came from Indian Earlier, we used to enter into a con- find difficult to do in our environment. industry. This makes it 20% from in- tract for one or two years at the end of Such competencies can leverage indus- dustry sources. We get around 23% which the relationship terminated. Now, trial R&D effectively. from the government. Since Dr. we endevour to build and sustain a re- Mashelkar became DG-CSIR (for past lationship for more number of years, I believe that areas like rheology of five years) public funding into R&D has wherein, NCL becomes a part and par- complex fluids, computational science, significantly increased. People don't cel of that company. Some of these molecular modelling, process model- realise this. The fact is substantial agreements are evergreen and have no ling and simulation, quantitative under- amount of money is coming from the sunset clause. This is what I call the standing of structure-property relation- government, not as a grant, but in other relationship model. This, however, does ships in materials require a high degree guises like CSIR Golden Jubilee Fund, not prevent us from entering into trans- of fundamental science and yet are very New Millennium Initiative in Technol- actional model with small and medium useful to industry. Within the frame- ogy Leadership Project, etc. sized companies with the limited ob- work of a relationship model, I will be jective of performing a project. prepared to even create specific skills The balance 7% comes from licens- at NCL and sustain them, if I know that ing fee, royalty, consultancy, etc., what What are the limits of the transac- such skills and competencies could be we call as miscellaneous receipts. Com- tional model? of use to the industry. pare this to 1995, when around 85% of funds used to come from foreign com- I find that for large companies, "We have to, in my panies. The focus has definitely shifted which are multi-product, multi-location now as you can see from our current and multi skills, it is not wise to use the opinion, establish an figures. transactional model. It is indeed better to build a relationship model as it helps Internal Performance We have also expanded our research to build credibility and competencies portfolios with Indian Companies and over a large period of time. I tell my Appraisal Board and are even working closely with them to- customers that if I know we will stay I intend to establish wards the objective of making strate- together for a long time than I can even gic technology plans for the growth of build internal resources, bring in new some system for it" the industry. skills into the laboratory and / or JULY 30, 2002 CHEMICAL WEEKLY 133 Interview

What kind of forays are you plan- gies which are highly proprietary ISO certification. We may have a need ning and where will you get your and are difficult to source. We need for GMP/GLC accredition. people from? to create an inventory of such tech- nologies and explore it's relevance How are you faring on the human We need to look at new opportuni- to India. resources front? ties. We must have the wisdom to In my view we have done reason- change and new vistas to chase. Re- How do you identify your strengths and weaknesses? ably well in attracting new talent. We search and technology being unpredict- posses scientific talent of a very high able, we cannot claim to fully know the We do know what our strengths and order. Leadership levels in our labs are shape of things to come. All that we can weaknesses are. We also have a reason- high — in terms of second and third do is to build specific skill groups in able idea of where we stand in relation level leadership. However, we need to this laboratory which we feel are con- to international companies in terms of do more in the years to come. NCL will temporary and which will address the the quality of our scientific staff, our have to be marketed as a place where needs of the future. I shall be looking R&D infrastructure and our research high scientific skills are nurtured and at ways to develop such skill groups processes. We know where we can bar- grown. We need to move aggressively from our existing talent, and hire new gain and where we cannot in terms of to position NCL as a place where high skills if we lack them. The skill groups research services. We also know where quality science is done, but directed we are looking at include, new molecu- we can be effective as a research part- towards a goal and purpose. We need lar and nano-materials, chemistry in- ner and where we cannot be. to make our research processes less spired biology and biology inspired bureaucratic so that new entrants do not chemistry, Chemical theory, computa- Does benchmarking research prac- feel the weight of the system bearing tional science, innovative process tices and internal research auditing them down. We need to build an infor- chemistry for organic chemicals, etc. find any place in your future scheme mal collegiate culture with a high de- We intend to identify more such rel- of initiatives? gree of freedom to scientists, freedom evant skill groups through an informed from paper work and hierarchy. debate within NCL. We have to also pay Yes, they do. I feel that it is very nec- attention to improving our R&D pro- essary to carry out internal audit of per- How do you look at the future? ductivity and efficiencies. formance. We have not done so in the past, but this is one of the things that I As a Director I am more concerned My strategies for the future are: intend to implement during my tenure with the future than the present. Science • To identify those areas in research as Director. and industry are changing rapidly. I expect that new demands will be made and technology where there is a low CSIR has now constituted a Per- entry barrier. It is necessary to avoid on us in the next ten years. The skills formance Appraisal Board (PAB) and and competencies that have sustained competing with people who have this is an external body which goes • substantially larger resources than us in the last one decade may not sus- around the laboratories and judges their tain us in the future. We have to con- we have. We should be focused on performance. We need to also have a new ideas and innovations. stantly reevaluate our research and busi- process of internal appraisal of per- ness models and ensure that they are • To focus on materials and chemicals formance within the laboratory. current and contemporary. We hope to which are single vendor items glo- define a road map for NCL in terms of bally. Many of these materials are I am thinking of a system where a group of scientists will review our in- research and business areas and define also not defined by molecular struc- the enabling skills and competencies ture, but only by performance (ex- ternal performance, research areawise and identify those areas where we are which are needed to reach our destina- ample, formulated products). There tion. We shall align all our physical, is a greater incentive to commercial- doing well and where we are not doing well. What I intend to do is basically human and financial resources to this ize such products because the com- road map. We hope to be more focused petition is likely to be small. form a peer group within the lab and let them look at the performance of the on our customers and ensure that we • To focus on materials whose trans- lab, i.e. oversee and evaluate ourselves. deliver what we promise to them. I be- portation cost are higher. Indian lieve that they are our most valuable manufacturers of such products are Any plans of seeking ISO certifica- assets. We shall do everything to see effectively insulated from the threat tion for NCL? that our customers succeed, because, of competition by imports. when they win we also win. • Similarly there are many technolo- I do not think NCL needs to go for a ' • R. RAJAGOPAL