MCMAFIA PRESS PACK

Writer Hossein Amini

Why did you want to adapt this book?

Well the book is factual and there are no story lines as such, but what was really exciting is the world that it painted was so interesting. I've always loved the gangster genre and even with things like The Sopranos, which I loved, it's about the end of that genre and the end of the gangster. It was really the death of that [in the 1990s]. And then suddenly I read this book and it was all about how [gangsters] were being reborn globally. And that the triads were dealing with the cartels who were competing with the Russian mafia and it was almost like Game of Thrones with mobs.

And I thought that was such a potentially exciting canvas. You know, this [book] gave us great characters and a great world and it's easy to invent scenes for that.

Has Alex changed much as a character?

Alex doesn't exist at all [in the book]. No I mean, literally none of the characters are historic and they never exist in the book.

It was really the world and the tone that appealed, because the tone of it is so authentic and it felt to me like it was that whole thing of 'truth is always more interesting than fiction'.

And also, I suddenly thought well, these people could be sitting next to me while I'm having dinner in the restaurant, or staying at the same hotel. And so the idea was to be able to almost drop the audience into something that feels familiar. So, it's not this heightened world where gangsters are all movie clichés but actually they look more like bankers and are totally unexpected and surprising. You know, there's a detail that Misha told us about a gangster whose hobby was dog shows and I could never have invented that.

Did that make it in to the series? Yes, yes! It's in. You can't ignore a thing like that.

So in the course of your research, did you talk to any gangsters?

Misha brought in some people who are on the fringes of that world. One was actually, to my surprise, someone who's a friend of my in-laws, and was described to me as a legend in the gangster world! There was a lot of research work where Misha was incredibly helpful and helped us talk to people involved in hacking and the police side of things.

So this is going to surprise us, is it, because it's not about Tony Soprano mobs who operate in a small area of New Jersey or New York City or whatever? It's not about turf wars?

I mean we're shooting second units in about ten different countries and the Russians are always speaking Russian and so on.

This was really about how they all interconnect over the globe. We didn’t get into the triads and stuff but potentially that's open. We've got cartels, the Russian mob, the Czech mob, Israel we have some scenes, there's a lot of India.

Is it hard to keep one step ahead of everything with all the recent news about America and Russia links and so on?

Yes, absolutely. The other thing we try to explore in the series is this almost the connections between crime, intelligence agencies, banks and politicians which is just getting murkier and murkier.

And obviously, everything that's happening now is slightly feeding into that. You know, the tricky thing is we have to try not to be too specific about individual characters and stuff because it's going to overtake you. Politics is going to overtake you, so it's trying to stay away from that.

Can you talk about the decision to cast James Norton and what he brings to the role?

Well, Alex's character in the series is really an anti-hero in the sense that he's charming [but] there's definitely a dark side of him. He surprises you more and more over the course of the series by almost embracing this area of work he's entering. And what James brings, apart from his fantastic talent as an actor, is this likeability on the screen. And that makes it even more exciting because he can do some terrible things and I think you're still on his side and that's really important in this kind of series. And actually, the supposed villain in this, Vadim, I tried to do the same thing with him to give him a family relationship and a big heart. All these people are not gangsters all of the time. It's like all of us: we work however many hours a day but the rest of the time we are parents or husbands and wives and have friends, and so we want to show that side of their lives, as well as the bits when they are doing violent crimes, which is a very small part of it really in a 24 hour day.

Why do you think we love anti-heroes so much these days, it almost seems like there is no bad guy?

Because I think storytelling in some ways has become more complex and I think there's that acceptance that everyone has good and bad in them and that you're different one moment to the next and you can hurt someone and actually feel guilty about it.

I feel that you look back at films in the 40s and 50s, which I love, but they tend to be a bit more black and white and I think gradually it's just got a bit more murky.

As a writer I love, for example, writing the most moving speech coming from supposedly the villain, or the most heart breaking moment or the cruellest moment coming from the hero, and I think just mixing that up is very exciting for a writer and hopefully for an audience as well.

From the people you met, were there any stories that were too strange to include or were there any things that you wanted to include from the book but couldn't?

The hacking story was tricky because hacking is quite a difficult genre for a film, so we have some of that, but to be honest I didn't really know enough to tell that story, I'm not very technically minded so that was a hard one.

But no, there's nothing. I mean it's quite a complicated world and some of the stuff they smuggle, like aluminium was a massive gangster trade in 1990s Russia but that's quite tricky to explain to an audience. Money laundering is also something we get deep into but, you know, I had to get banker friends and stuff to help with that!

Is there a lot of violence in there or is it all implied?

There is violence. I think the violence is not that frequent but even when it happens it is quite violent and I think the reason for that is one of the things that came across very much in Misha's book is for a lot of these modern day gangsters, violence is a last resort. They'd much rather behave like businessman and negotiate and co-operate and only when there's no other option do they resort to violence, so we tried to reflect that in the amount we show, that it's really something they do quite reluctantly.

That said, did you receive any threats?

No. I have been a bit more paranoid! But so far, no. We are skirting quite close to some of the things that are going on in the world. So it doesn't feel as imagined as other stuff.

Also, when you just do the research, you look at people wiping poison on people's faces and… That's one where they were ahead of us because that form of assassination is completely new.

Who is the most terrifying in the crime organisations?

From my reading I'd guess the two powerful kingdoms right now are the Mexican cartels probably and the Russian mob, but I'm guessing. Certainly in our kind of world that feels like those are the two super powers.

How open were they to talk about their world?

We didn't meet any hardcore foot soldiers. It was mainly guys who dabbled, who were on the outskirts, and they were… It's funny because they don't talk about it as gangsters, it's as businessmen. They're dealing in product.

But I think people are quite open, certainly from what Misha told me, who did much more meeting the gangsters than I did. They're quite eager to talk about themselves and their lives and the fact that they're helping people as well as, you know, being gangsters. It's a classic thing in all kinds of story telling that every villain is the hero of their own story and I think with all these people, they're the same. Because they don't feel like they're the bad guys, necessarily.

How prevalent is the gangster world?

I think it's really prevalent, it's also incredibly wide reaching because it's dealing with all sorts of things from people smuggling to cigarette smuggling, to drugs, to intelligence and it's so broad now. And I think also in terms of the money it makes. I don't know if it's true but there are statistics about when the whole 2008 economic collapse [which says that] it was black money from gangs and drugs and whatever that was keeping the economy afloat. So, I think it's massive both in terms of its presence but also its financial reach. I think the cocaine industry has become one of the most lucrative. If you'd invested in a top hedge fund you'd probably have made 30% over the last few years. With cocaine, it's 3000%.

[James Norton enters the room, who plays Alex Godman]

Could you give us a little character sketch to start, please, James?

James: Yes. Alex Godman. Alex is a gift for an actor. He's the son of an ex- Russian mobster, the family have been exiled back to London, probably about 10/15 years previous to this story.

And he has set his mission to turn his back on his criminal past which the family all share and both he and his girlfriend Rebecca, they are all about ethical finance. And he's built this business up from scratch, this hedge fund. What's fascinating, what we really enjoyed exploring, is that he's got this polarised contradiction where he's Russian, he identifies with his Russian roots, but he's also aware that they are all tied up with this Mafia past.

So, he's very adamant that he's making a life in England and he's educated here and he speaks with an English accent and his girlfriend is very, very English. And yet he spends his evenings going to Systema classes and reading Dostoevsky. It's this kind of contradiction in his own head which he hasn't quite worked out yet. And then I suppose the story you get through a series of events is that he is blackmailed and strong-armed into engaging with his chequered past and that sets up the conflict for the series.

How much did you know about this world and particularly the Russian criminals?

Not an enormous amount. I mean, I think we're all fascinated by this, compelling world of Mafia. It's that slightly subversive, dark underworld. Something like the Godfather, we're all obsessed about it in various forms, books, film, TV. I think it's that anarchic fatalist, those people who live on the fringes of criminality which we all as law-abiding citizens find fascinating. But I didn't know much. I hadn't read the book, I have now read the book, most of the book. Have you tried to read the book? Give it a go, it's fascinating, but I mean Misha's obsessed by the subject, so he has everything single fact and figure in there, so you do have to wade through quite a lot but it is totally fascinating.

When we talk about the Mafia, it is so tied up with those portrayals which we're so used to in the Sopranos and the Godfather.

And what's so lovely and fascinating and so relevant about this story is that, until this project, I didn't really appreciate how the Mafia is a totally new phenomenon, you know.

It's a totally globalised corporate, it straddles all these different countries and financial systems. It no longer sits in the city protection racket. It's the Panama Papers, it's corrupt presidents and prime ministers, it's even between the Kremlin and the White House and how that's facilitated. So that was what was a real eye opener for me and I hope that's what the show will reveal. Alex is aware of the past, of the family, but he spent so much of his life turning his back on it and not engaging with it and the audience are taken on that journey through his eyes and it is fascinating and it's kind of sexy and empowering. Because there is this whole underworld of people who don't abide with the rules and do what the f*** they want and it's kind of exciting. You get seduced but you're never quite sure how much you're being seduced and how much is… Once again, the gift for an actor is that he's never really quite sure why he's on this journey. He convinces himself that it's about protection and it's about survival, but there's another side to it and the beauty of Hossein's writing is that he and the audience are never quite sure: each choice he makes, is it to do with survival or is it a bit more to do with the fact that he just wants to go deeper and deeper and deeper and, you know, gather more control and money? So, it's brilliant.

Does Alex lead a very super rich lifestyle like a Russian oligarch?

Yes and no. James [Watkins, director] and these guys have made it a very important part of the production design that he's not flashy and ostentatious. Although they are from a very, very wealthy Russian family and those oligarchs, even though their family have been exiled, they live a pretty lavish lifestyle. Their home, for most people's standards, is incredibly lavish.

Rebecca and Alex live in a mews house in West London. It's very tasteful but everything is quite textured and matte and ethical. It's not like he's drinking champagne and eating caviar at night.

But they are wealthy, you know, he runs a very important hedge fund and Rebecca's job is working for a man who is essentially the figurehead of ethical finance.

We decided, and what's suggested, is that they met over in America and they spent their last ten years of their life really identifying with and flying the flag of ethical finance.

So do you speak any Russian in this?

Nyet! [laughs] Well I'm actually fluent in Russian, which is interesting because I'm not the only one. I'm a very committed actor and I've learned how to speak Russian.

Really?

No! [laughs] We learn bits and pieces. I'm trying to as much as I can. We've got Alexsey Serebryakov and Maria Shukshina who are just amazing, they're these extraordinary Russian powerhouse actors. Alexsey claims not to speak very good English. We think he speaks much better English than he lets on. But yes, we've got translators and a lot of the dialogue about the scenes are in Russian. The back story is that Alex was sent to school over here when it felt like the family were in trouble, in line with the real reality of the situation when people turned against all the oligarchs. It would have been around the time of the fall when our family suddenly was in jeopardy and that's the point when they would have sent Alex and his little sister over to the UK to be educated privately in England. So, he speaks Russian but now that they are living in London he is adamant again that he wants to establish his roots and his life here.

So, he speaks English, and his family - or his dad at least - speaks Russian, and there's this constant battle but when they want to give each other a gift or they're speaking sentimentally or affectionately towards each other, he might speak Russian to his Dad and vice versa.

So, the scene we're literally shooting right now, [my father] speaks two or three pages of dialogue all in Russian and I sit there and go, 'Mmm', pretending to understand!

I learn his lines, both mine and his lines and I'll hear a word that I know in English. It's quite a weird experience, you have to learn both.

Hossein: And that's based on a truth too. I grew up, I'm really Iranian and in our family we talked two different languages, I'd speak English and my father would speak Farsi and I think that happens too. And that personal thing in their family reflects the globalism we're trying to capture, that within families people are speaking different languages, and in their case, it's almost like a battle of wills, which is, 'Why don't you speak to me in Russian?' and, 'Why don't you learn English?'. And I think it's a lot about exile, this situation.

Did either of you feel tainted or cynical from delving into this murky world, or were you excited by it?

Hossein: It's interesting, isn't it? I think there's a fantasy element as a writer, I don't know if it's the same for an actor. There's a buzz writing scenes which you've never done and things you wouldn't do in your real life.

James: Yeah, and that's what I love about this job, is that some people will read Misha's book and it will be a bunch of statistics and names and numbers, and we get the wonderful privilege to actually attach an emotional journey to that and feel what it's like. And I think this is a testament to the writing which is - I can't even tell you - it's absolutely the best, really. I know Hossein is here! But I mean it. It humanises it. I've said this before about other things, but it's never about villains and heroes, it's about the grey area between humanity, it's all about that wonderful mess in between. And this is exactly that. These people, these Mafia, these mobsters and these bosses and their families, they're all just like us, they're looking out for each other. I mean, of course, they have a slightly warped version, their moral compass is slightly different from ours, but their priorities are the same. They need to put food on the table, they need to survive. So actually, in a way it's done the opposite [to making me feel tainted or cynical]. It's made me look at those people in a slightly different way. Each of the characters you meet on Alex's journey, none of them are a stock villain, they're all deeply sympathetic human people.

And what's great is that you're never really sure where your allegiance lies as an audience member, you're thrown all over the place.

Did it make you change your mind at all about your consumerism, in terms of buying ethically or making sure that you're not inadvertently propping up a corrupt government with your bank choices and so on?. I know it's a very complex subject, but have you thought about that in your own life?

James: Yes, and I"m really pleased that you said that because although it does humanise the individuals, we also learn the statistics.

We have a story line in this which looks into human trafficking and the sex trade and even when you read endless articles [about that], but to see a specific example is so much more helpful and heart breaking. So whilst it does humanise the idea of these men and women facilitating and causing that kind of suffering and pain and exploitation, it does play with your allegiance completely.

We all know there are bits of clothing which we wear, or food which we eat, which can come from very, very dark places, and this is a great show and it does start to question those things. It hopefully will open certain doors which perhaps we haven't opened.

To play devil's advocate, is there a worry at all that you're glamourising this world or is it more nuanced than that?

Hossein I hope it's more nuanced than that but there's inevitably a glamour to it. I think because it's got all those trappings of money, wealth and power, and I think as human beings we're drawn to that. We can be repulsed by it in moments but it's compelling. What we're trying to avoid is glamorous cliché, and particularly when you're dealing with all the different countries we're dealing with and the people from those countries. That's why it's so important to get Russian actors playing Russians and Israelis playing Israelis and whatever, because of actually that cultural specificity and the advice that they give us.

Quite often lines will change because they say , 'We would never say that, it just doesn't mean that in our country', and I think us writers and James the director had to be adaptable to that and it's great they're on board because we don't want to create the Russian cliché of rich Russian oligarchs.

James: To add to that, I feel slightly I should also qualify the whole humanising and attachment thing because the world of the Mafia essentially is known for this this extraordinary inequality of wealth and distribution.

It's true that it does allow a very small number of people, like Alex's family - although he says himself he has not used any of that dirty money to set himself up - but they are very wealthy at the expense of other people and the majority are left destitute. And what's great about the writing is for every character who's living the high life you also see the women being trafficked, the drugs going through Mumbai and 50,000 addicts and that suffering. So yes, there is a glamour to it, but equally it's always qualified with the cost.

Having shot on lots of locations, it sounds very different from your other jobs like Grantchester. Is that exciting for you as an actor?

James: Yeah, it is. We actually filmed Grantchester here! We had one episode. Hossein: It was amazing having one director doing all eight episodes, that's pretty rare.

Can you talk us through some of the locations?

James I came on six or seven weeks late because we were finishing another project and they shot a lot of stuff elsewhere, but I know there were splinter units going out everywhere: Tel Aviv, Istanbul or Moscow. We've got the South of France coming up, we're filming in Croatia, in Serbia in May and June. Obviously, all across London and it's great that these guys are making a real point of showing London in all its scale and wealth. I think you probably see from the trailer we have incredible backing and support from AMC and BBC and people are really putting it out there and taking a punt, so it's great.

We are very supported and able to travel around the world and tell those stories, it is very, very exciting and I can't tell you how exciting it is to work with these actors. All these different nationalities, they bring certain energies and in certain moments they will occasionally clash but in a, kind of, productive way.

There is a lot of discussion about tone and storytelling and what that should be and how we should do it and certain nationalities will have different views.

But someone like Alexsey can be a nightmare! But is just the most extraordinary, powerful man and I've learned an enormous amount. So, yes, not only the locations but also, particularly the people I think. Yes, it’s a privilege actually.

What can you tell me about the development of the relationship with Rebecca because you have gangster blood but she's clean and when she starts to realise, how does she react?

James: She knows that they have this strange past and I think that, when they fell in love, that would have been something which she was attracted to in Alex. That he is from this world but is very much rejecting that world. And when I say he's putting his roots down in London, it's all about him identifying himself with this clean money and clean life and the money and the life, apart from his ties with his family. So I think she will have found that very attractive and you're right, she basically represents the purity and the very ethically minded work space. He is forced, essentially, to face his past and, without giving too much away, it was wrong when I said 'seduced' because it is much more complex than that. It's a journey which is partly chosen, partly against his will, and he also has to keep it very hidden from Rebecca and inevitably over the eight hours, things start to come to the surface and it starts to challenge their relationship.

So he couldn't just say no?

James: You'll see it's not as simple as that. A classic example comparison would be something like Walter White of Breaking Bad.

But Walter enjoyed it, didn't he?

James: Well, yes but he was also in trouble, in the beginning he doesn't have a choice, you're left as an audience member going, 'Okay, I totally understand he has to make that choice'. And then at a certain point you not sure and you're going, 'Would I make that choice? I'm not sure. Maybe my choice would be different'. and then later on you're going, 'How the hell did I end up here?'. As an audience you're never quite sure where you stand.

[James is called back to film]

Hossein, how does the technology appear on screen, given that that is an important part of how gangsters operate these days? You touched on it earlier.

Hossein: Yes. Particularly when you get into the whole intelligence and spying. A lot of power of these gangs depends on support from governments and intelligence agencies, which includes the wire taps of rivals and all the sorts of stuff.

We tried to get some of that into it, so I think there's the gangster layer, the intelligence agencies layer, and the politicians layer, although the politicians layer is less. But technology is definitely such an important part of what's going on and we have seen that in the news [recently].

So intelligence and governments are colluding in these acts?

Yes. For example in Mexico all the big cartel wars, one very convincing thesis is that the government thought it would be easier to deal with one than it would to deal with a dozen. So, they supported El Chapo Guzman's cartels against the other cartels, and likewise I think in Russia there is siding with one against another. Governments are still more powerful than gangs I think in most of these places and where they're not, I think gangs fill in.

So they're not scared of running foul of the law?

Yes and I think the more protected they are, if they have their governments behind them, then they feel very strong.

Were any other dramas like Traffic an influence?

Traffic actually is a huge influence because of that sense that you could go all over the world. I think that's the only other one I can think of that has.

You know I now have four contained stories, I think we're a bit more fractured, but I loved the TV series and I watched it again before sort of writing this, and the force of that writing was totally inspiring.

Yes, and tonally as well, I think it was very much of its time and this is definitely trying to capture this time. Like James was saying, London now is such a fascinating city and I think it's… the locations we've chosen we haven't sort of messed around too much.

So if it's a hotel or a lobby or whatever in Russia, and other people could be sitting right next to you, normally, while you have these meetings. That's the thesis in Misha's book, that it's much closer to us than we know.

Did you have a free rein to factor in any locations you wanted to, while writing it? We were very lucky, we just wrote it. And then our producer Paul Ritchie, he'd done Slum Dog Millionaire and he's just fantastic. So, we've been able to film in places and move around and come back. That freedom and whatever our intentions wouldn't be possible without that producer.

Also, the bank of AMC and BBC, means ours is a healthy budget but actually I think it's going a lot further than the budget, in the sense that we have just managed to get more than… [money] It's like what James was saying. A lot of actors in Russia and Czech Republic will race right out the door because they never get to do a lot of European, American or English TV, so we're getting the absolute top people from these countries. And likewise, permissions to film.

Is there a sense that countries that we previously thought of as being third world, perhaps like India or Mexico that you mentioned, are becoming really, really powerful now because they've got less crime enforcement and so actually the gangsters are going there to do their business?

Absolutely, and they often end up having very powerful gangs within that because it's easier.

In Europe or in the States, I guess there's quite a strong wall between criminal and law than in a lot of these countries. And so the corruption is much easier in a lot of these places, and that freedom of movement and travel is easier.

Again, it's part of that globalised world which is talked about in Misha's book where the walls have come down and as they've come down, criminals exploit that.

Are sex and drugs still very much the basis of what interests a lot of these gangsters?

I think so. Drugs because of the money. It's still massively lucrative however you get into it, compared to, I don't know, smuggling computer chips or whatever, it's never going to beat drugs. And sex, there's something primal about it. If you simplified it, it's really money, sex and self-esteem which are these primal drives. I think Alex probably has that more strongly than other people do but I'd say bankers are probably the same, Hollywood moguls! And I think there is that primal urge to get someone into bed or beat a rival in a deal or whatever, and I think those are very human impulses but you definitely see a lot of that in this world.

Juliet Rylance plays Rebecca; and Faye Marsay plays Katya

What's Rebecca and Katya's relationship to each other?

Juliet: Well, there is nothing much in the script.

Faye: No, we've just worked it out ourselves, really.

J: Yes, we just decided that we really like each other. I think actually Rebecca is more, kind of, reserved than Katya is and I think she loves Katya's wildness and she wishes she was a bit more like Katya in some ways, I think. That's my little back story.

F: I think Katya actually identifies more with Rebecca than she does with the Russian family. Katya feels more English than she does Russian, and she rebels against the Russian side and she doesn't want to speak Russian at the home and she's kind of the black sheep of the family. So Rebecca is someone she can relate to a bit better.

Does Katya feel the same way about her family background as Alex?

F: Katya feels more… she's misunderstood and she isn't really allowed to be herself. Because she was three when she came over to the UK and I think she finds it hard to stick with the tradition, whereas Alex, from the way I see it, tries to have that [tradition], but also needs to break away from the kind of more old school way of what his parents do. I think Katya's quite confused about where she fits into this family and the society she's been brought up in and money. And it's all a bit kind of confusing for her. Yes, she's an interesting one is Katya.

James said that when Alex and Rebecca first got together, that his past was a little part of the attraction for her, and I wondered what your take was on that?

J: Oh it's interesting. I think probably there is something. There's always something about a family that's as dynamic and different. Alex's family is so different from anything that Rebecca's been around. But I think the biggest thing for Rebecca - maybe we have different perspectives on it! - is the fact that I think Rebecca and Alex met at Goldman Sachs, they were working together and Rebecca has this huge desire to pursue ethical capitalism. Whether there's actually a way that we can live more ethically in a capitalist society. And I think that Alex and Rebecca probably had a number of conversations about that and had similar views about wanting to do things differently. I think one of the big, big driving attractions for my character to him is that he really, when we meet, at the beginning of the story, makes a choice not to go down the same route as the family.

I think the bravery and courage to do that is something that she really admires in him. Which obviously paves the way, some drama as the story continues!

How much do we see Rebecca and Katya drawn into that world as the series goes on?

F: I think Katya's journey is more about figuring out where she fits in within this kind of mad family and how she wants to identify. I think the family drama and the business side of it, she's aware [of those] but it's never a huge thing in her story line.

J I think Rebecca is unwittingly drawn in and unknowingly drawn in and I think the big conflict for her throughout the story is, how much do you sacrifice what you believe in or put yourself in an area of potential danger or unknowing for the sake of your relationship with the person you love? So, I think the biggest conflict for her is how much she puts herself first, or him first, or the relationship first.

How do you make a morally upright person interesting? J [laughs] That's terrible!! Can't we be both? Actually, it's a little bit like joy and sorrow. You can't really experience sorrow unless you've experienced joy and I think that it's the same. You know, if there's a desire to be morally upright in some way, it's probably because you've been the other way at some point in your life. In however small or big a way. It is an interesting question because I think we all as human beings, at least I do, have that constant, dilemma of, do I want this, what do I want for me and what's actually best for the family around me and the people around me, society, community? And that's a push and pull that I think we all deal with on a daily basis. So I think that's something that Rebecca thinks about a lot.

How has the content of the show changed the way that you see the world? I assume you've learned quite a lot.

J: Well, it's timely, isn't it, this show? I think we've become more and more aware of just how interconnected we are globally, financially, in terms of power and transfer of power through different countries and continents. And all the cyber terrorism and all those things that are going on at the moment in the political arena.

I think the show really runs brilliantly alongside all of that and it is pretty enlightening talking to Misha Glenny about the book and talking to Hoss and seeing these incredible stories in this piece. I had no idea about all the trafficking that Misha researched and it's a bit mind blowing.

Has it changed the choices that you make in your life?

F: In my life? Yes, I think it depends. What we're dealing with [in the show], those kinds of choices - I'm aware they're quite wrong! [laughs] But in terms of being aware and realising how wrong they are and wanting to be active in changing that and changing people's outlook then yes, I guess so, I haven't really thought about that.

J: The only thing I did last week was I left my bank.

Which one? J Citibank. I left Citibank which felt great and am waiting for Triados to set up a current account. I think that's going to be good, based on things in the past couple of months. Yes, and turn my energy bills green and move to a different energy supplier. That's it. Small steps.

Does it make you feel a bit unsafe, like you're living in this world with all these things are going on?

J: I mean I feel unsafe anyway, don't you? I think we all do a little bit, don't we, at the moment?

F: The world is - technology and everything - you have to look at the Black Mary series as well and just go , 'Ooh'. Watching those is terrifying.

J: It does feel like there's a lot of mirroring of what we're feeling and dealing with at the moment. What I love about Hoss's writing is it's so, it's so clean of over-explaining anything.

You know there's always that moment as an actor when we step into the room and you read like three lines of exposition before you start the scene and you, sort of, have that debate of, 'I know we need to say this but do I really have to be the person that says it?'

F: Spoon feeding the audience all the info, yes.

J: Yeah. And there's not one time in this script have I ever circled a line and gone, 'Oops, exposition'. It's just not there. So, everything is very subtle it does create a very real mirror of what we're probably all feeling in some way.

Do you get to speak a little Russian?

F: No I don't actually in this, she chooses not to. Katya understands it but she's quite adamant she won't speak it, she's not going to do it.

Did you learn much about Russia?

F: Oh yeah, loads, loads, loads. There's Meredith who's been a translator but she also lived in Russia for a very long time. So, we had lessons with her and you know, talked about how Russian women typically are. It's quite a fascinating, complex country, and I think it's worth learning about and it's been enjoyable to really speak to Alexsey and people who grew up there. It's a fascinating land.

J What's also interesting is the cast is so international and obviously today, half the cast is Russian and half of us are English. And so you're constantly not just aware of another culture or that we're from two very different countries but our ways of working as actors is so different, just the process of rehearsal before a take or the way we view things, and that's been really interesting.

F: You learn a lot, I've learned a lot from watching the Russian actors. Their discipline is insane. They are so good, they are so good, you just sit there thinking, 'Aargh, I'm really trying hard".

Does your character go abroad?

F No I'm just in London, my storyline is based in London, so I stayed here for two years.. [ pulls face]

You're going to Croatia, Juliet?

J: Yes, which, I think, doubles for Israel, Prague, South of France, and a few others.

How corruptible do you think Rebecca could be?

J: [pulls a knowing face]. It depends. I think she's quite incorruptible. I mean it's a really good question. It is just that thing that I think, particularly women go through, maybe that's a very sexist thing to say, but, how much do you put your own values on the back burner in support of your partner? I think that's the only area that she could make some not so good decisions.

She loves him enough to maybe do it?

J: [looks awkward, laughs]. I don't know! I don't know what to say.

Has she got any passionate scenes with James?

J: Yes, actually, there's a beautiful scene that's pretty passionate that happens in the south of France that both James and I, when we read it ,were amazed with Hoss. That he'd written something that, when we came in and had our first talk about the relationship, we both went 'That scene!', because it shows the whole relationship. Because the dialogue that he's written is so specific to each of them and the dance of word play between them is so gorgeous in that scene, so yes, there are some passionate scenes and some funny scenes and some bad scenes. It's a good broad spectrum.

What's James like to work with?

F: He's a lovely man and I sincerely mean that, I'm not lying now. He's a lovely, lovely man.

I never met him before, I read lots of things about him obviously and seen him in lots of stuff and he's just like, he's confident but not in like a d***ish way, like he's just very lovely. He is, he really is , and he never makes you feel left out, he always includes you and he's a great actor as well, so it's a joy to be around James because he's a lovely bloke. I really love him.

J: He's got a fantastic work ethic, absolutely lovely to everyone, and he's brilliant.

F: He's got it all, really!

It's already been sold all around the world. How does that feel, knowing how many people will see it?

F: I never really think about that, to be honest, otherwise I probably wouldn't do it. That's quite a scary thought. I also don't really watch anything that I'm in.

But the script's so good in this, I will definitely be tuning in, I think I'll just watch like this when I'm in it [puts fingers over eyes]. I never think about that. I think it is wonderful that it is reaching such a wide audience now and that's really exciting but yes, it's cool.

Do you think the international appeal comes from the fact that all countries essentially have similar problems?

F: I think so, yes. Yes, yes, yes. I think it's a global thing, I think there is a lot to sort out. Yes, am I right?

J: Yes, I do. I'm also fascinated to see how each country responds to our English take on their country, their society and the dynamic of where they're from. I think [director] James Watkins has been really clever in really fighting to cast as many real Russian actors from Russia or Israeli actors from Israel, that actually think that we're getting quite a real take on those cultures and the interactions of those cities.

So, I'm hoping that people, kind of go, 'Oh, yeah, that feels like where I'm from'. It's interesting.

And James and Mark, our DP, have come up with this fantastic experiment to grade each city a different colour, which I think is so clever, so that Russia feels quite white and Israel, I think has a lot of pinks in the grading and England has this kind of dark yellow with a grey to it.

So I think it's going to actually move quite beautifully around the world with those colours.

Faye, your character in Game of Thrones was quite feisty…

F: I knew Game of Thrones would come up!

Is Katya going to see some action?

F: Not like that, no. I'm not in it enough to do that! No, no, she is completely different to any character I've done. Very RP, very well spoken, very girly girly, very strong feminine, and I usually play nutcases or punks or whatever, so it's been a challenge.

It's been a challenge to play posh? F: I didn't say posh! What I said was RP! The first job I did was an RP role I guess. It's a challenge, I'm from a working-class background so it's nice to live in the shoes of that kind of world where there's money and I'm well- spoken and educated and it's been fun, you know. Not that I'm not educated! I definitely went to school.

Is she wearing designer clothes and…?

F: Yes but I don't think it's like, 'I love clothes', it's just how she was brought up. It's not like, 'I must have these shoes, I'm going to have a party', she's not like that. She's quite vulnerable and quite broken, actually, a kind of insecure girl. The clothes are just because she's got the money.

James Watkins, director

How did you approach directing McMafia?

When I first got together with Hoss, to talk about the notion, we thought the whole point of it was the 'global village' aspect so we talked about how to reflect that and how to come up with something that had both the scale of the world and also makes the point that we're both the same and different from the rest of the world, anchored in the intimacy of the world of these families.

In terms of the actual scale, logistically we are trying to put as much on screen as we can so we're filming in lots of different countries: Israel, Russia, Croatia, UK, Doha, and a few other places. Mumbai, Czech Republic. We're trying to get as much variation in terms of space.

And also in terms of the look of the piece, we're trying to look at things like Traffik, both the original Channel 4 TV series and Soderbergh's screenplay, and the way in which they differentiate different places through the look. What I don't want to be doing is having constant titles saying 'we are here' and 'here we are'. The grades are different in different spaces so you'll get, 'Here we are in London' in that shorthand without having to title it every time.

The idea is the collision of these worlds, I suppose. Hopefully we can give visual motifs to nod to that.

What makes James Norton an interesting actor to work with?

James is fascinating because, in terms of the core of his character Alex, there's this notion of the Russian bear in the bowler hat.

Obviously that's an antiquated way of looking at it but it's that idea that in speeches about Alex, there's one speech where Rebecca says, 'You look like you're civilised but you're actually a savage within'.

It's that sense that on the surface, he's a very handsome, well brought up young man, who's been through a system, this public school system which makes him polished, but what's interesting is what's underneath.

It's the collision of the two - letting out that savagery, that Nietzschean power or revenge thing, whatever it is that's burning inside of him. And the collision between him and the Russian actors gives another side to James.

He's not just this public schoolboy, at all. He's not just this privileged guy. He's got this other side to him, this 'otherness', and one of the things we're interested in is this sense that we're talking about displacement and London and how it's a global city, and what does that mean, and it's trying to find those collisions within the character of Alex.

He shows a different side in Happy Valley...

Well yes it's interesting because in Happy Valley you see that edge to him, and you see other things he's done which have a much more composed surface. To try and collide those two things in one character..

Where do they live, Alex and Rebecca? This set that we're on? It's a bit misleading that we're shooting in the country because this house that we're in is actually the Godman's flat. It's a Knightsbridge mansion flat. It's in one of those blocks behind Harrods.

Do you find that developing events in the world became even more relevant while you were filming this?

Yeah it's funny because the Panama Papers came out, and Russia has come back into the news in a big way and I suspect that will continue. So it will be very interesting to see how events resonate or overtake us.

Why did you film in Croatia?

It hasn't really been used and we wanted somewhere fresh, but also we went on a scouting trip there because Paul had worked there briefly and said, 'You should really check out Croatia because it hasn't really been used before and it's got an enormous amount of variety'.

So we scouted, and it really has - Zagreb's old town could be Prague. You go an hour or two outside, to the coast, and you really could be in the south of France.

You head down the coast towards Split and you get into more Turkish architecture so it can double as Istanbul. Or there's an island called Cow (??) which is covered in salt marshes where we shot some of the desert material and it really does feel like you're in Egypt or Israel.

It just has a massive variety. Then you can hop over to Serbia or Belgrade, and it gave us an enormous amount of resource which we could then expand on being hopping up to other countries.

What are the big set pieces that involve the most extras or action?

In terms of extras there are quite a few. We're trying to use London as this city where anybody can buy their way in. So we've shot at the top of the Sky Garden, at the top of the Walkie-Talkie building, and we had a huge Russian banquet scene in the Victoria and Albert Museum. We were in one of the Raphael rooms there. And then we've shot in Lancaster House, which doubles for sort-of Versailles, basically.

In terms of actual scale, shooting in India, market scenes on the street, we had probably about 2,000 extras. I shot there about seven weeks, all in Mumbai.

In terms of action, there's a certain amount of set pieces. What we're saying is that the battles and crimes - I'm sure Hoss has said this - are in the boardrooms and through the spreadsheets. The corporatisation of crime.

Thematically there's a notion that's relevant here about corporates becoming criminal and criminals becoming corporate, and who knows where the lines lie.

But within that there are always moments where of course ultimately on the ground somebody always pulls a gun. Those set pieces are not about glamourising those moments. When violence explodes in these worlds, it's nasty and unpleasant and it has repercussions. The ripples are really felt.

How have you found it, working with an international cast?

As a director, for me, my approach is that the various actors have different worlds that come with them and a purity of approach. There's an international language where everybody approaches their character in the same way, really, whether you're Indian or Russian. But how we prep, is very fascinating.

There was a big conversation which we had with AMC and BBC first off which is that I don't' want to do the thing where, not naming any names, but you cast a big British name actor to play his dad in Russian.

I can smell it, it feels false straight away. It's costing us quite a lot to fly them all in but it's worth it in terms of the reality it gives. When yo've got four actors from Tel Aviv playing a scene in Hebrew, you can't fake that.

What's it like as a director to manage that, though?

Fantastic, because as a director you want truth. This is not about heightened [drama], it's about truth. It's understated performance and I think some of those European actors really bring that. I don't know what's in the water, but it's really amazing.

Less is more. Every time a new actor comes on, a British actor will say, 'You've got to watch this, everything is so understated and so real, and you've got to get with that tone or you'll look foolish'.

Has learning about the criminal globalisation changed you as a person? Did you know much about it beforehand?

I didn't, but I've lived with the book for a long time now and it is quite eye- opening. I suppose you do look around you and realise it's everywhere.

The point of the book and the series, really, is that this is all around us. It's invisible, but it's around us.

We're all, in some way, complicit, whatever small way it is. Someone buys a fake watch or whatever.

There are elements of how the ripples of international crime, particularly in London, are felt. Whether it's illegal labour. There are many ways that affects people in ways that they don't necessarily realise. It resonates.

The blurring of those lines between governments, corporations, intelligence, police, criminals.

Particularly in a post-truth world, whatever the hell that is, people aren't clear what those boundaries are.

You see on Wikileaks what they're leaking, and someone else is saying, 'Is that about civil liberties or is that about somebody damaging the people that are protecting us?'

It's not like an op-ed, it's just a drama, but…

But it's very timely…

Yeah hopefully. For me, the best American or British drama that you see has some kind of grip on the world and touches on that. And hopefully not only is it entertaining but it's about on the way home, or in the pub, do people talk about it. It's not Chekov but you're hoping it has something that has a little bit of grit.

How hard is it to follow?

If I'm doing my job right, it should be fairly straightforward!

At the same time, I think letting people work it out is no bad thing. For me the best drama is when you don't spell it out.

It lets the audience participate by going, 'Oh is that…? They dropped that there and.. oh, okay'.

You let them connect the dots rather than slavishly connecting the dots for them.

Will there be comparisons to the Night Manager?

I guess because of AMC and the BBC, there are obvious comparisons to make. Tonally I think we're quite different.

Maria Shukshina plays Oksana

Is Oksana very protective of her children, Alex and Katya?

Very true, yes. Very protective. Like a mother, like any mother. She can't be any different.

Would she kill for them?

Only with words! Here, no.

Do you find Russia quite a dangerous place to be? No, I wouldn't say so. I live there. There was a moment when there was a lot of tension, and where we had a lot of people from Uzbekistan and the Caucasus Regions but now they're not there and it seems to be fine.

But there are some very wealthy people in Russia and where there's money, there's always corruption..

That's always been around. It's always been there. Nothing has changed.

How involved is your character in the mafia? Is she an operative or is she more like Carmela in the Sopranos, who is aware of the terrible things her husband does, but isn't really involved?

She knows who her husband was; but she's not involved in the business or the politics of it.

Oksana, unlike her husband, has become accustomed to England and like any other woman she has become aware of her surroundings and she works with them now so she's a bit different from him in that sense.

Were you aware of Faye and James's work before they were cast as your children in this?

Yes, yes. I watched War and Peace, it was on Channel Number One in Russia.

It was great. I really loved it and I'm really happy they kept a lot of Tolstoy, his thoughts. And it was a great cast, I loved it.

I'm very happy that James Norton, who played Andrei the Prince in War and Peace, is now my son!

When I was coming over here, all the ladies were telling me to say 'hi' to him and saying, 'give him a hug'. So I said, 'of course!'

He has a big following in Russia, a lot of fans.

Is it different working here, compared to a Russian set?

It's absolutely the same, apart from the lighting. It's a lot darker on set, there's no light. It's only natural light, really.

Today, I gave a Russian doll to the Director of Photography, as a celebration of International Woman's Day. And now he puts a light panel when they're doing wide shots of me!

I know what I'm doing…

How do you feel about the children identifying as very English, and Katya refusing to speak Russian?

I speak English with my children. The hero Alex, he speaks Russian. When I'm in a bit of conflict with Alex, I'll speak English with him, but when we're happy and everything's good, I'll speak Russian.

Is it a challenge for you to act in English?

Yes, of course.

Had you done much before, acting in English?

Not in international projects, no. It's a great experience. I love it.

Did you have to change anything in the script that you felt was incorrect?

No, the script was good.

How do you think the Russians are portrayed? Fairly?

What drew me to this project is that they are showing Russians from the real point of view, from the human side. Normally, Russians are the baddies.

Do you get fed up with that cliche of the Russian gangster?

I'm very happy that we can be who we actually are and I wouldn't have said 'yes' if I was going to be a bad person. Although, I do like the bad roles.

Do you know the other Russian actors in the cast?

Yes, I've worked together with Alexsey on television projects, and I've worked alongside Marsha's dad.

What's been your most fun scene?

I really liked the big gala that we had. I had diamonds that cost a million pounds!

Are you filming anywhere other than London?

Only in London.

Do you think this will have international appeal outside of Russia and the UK because every country has problems with gangsters, with corruption…?

Yes, because there's not only gangsters in this, there's family and that's interwoven so yes I think it will appeal to many people. It's very interesting, how the family comes into contact, and in that sense the Russian family will be very interesting.

ends