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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT Welsh Grand Committee AUTUMN STATEMENT Wednesday 22 January 2014 (Afternoon) CONTENTS Autumn Statement Resumption of general debate. PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS LONDON – THE STATIONERY OFFICE LIMITED £6·00 Members who wish to have copies of the Official Report of Proceedings in General Committees sent to them are requested to give notice to that effect at the Vote Office. No proofs can be supplied. Corrigenda slips may be published with Bound Volume editions. Corrigenda that Members suggest should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons, not later than Sunday 26 January 2014 STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT WILL GREATLY FACILITATE THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE BOUND VOLUMES OF PROCEEDINGS IN GENERAL COMMITTEES © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 37 Welsh Grand Committee22 JANUARY 2014 Autumn Statement 38 The Committee consisted of the following Members: Chair: MR DAI HAVARD Bebb, Guto (Aberconwy) (Con) Irranca-Davies, Huw (Ogmore) (Lab) † Brennan, Kevin (Cardiff West) (Lab) † James, Mrs Siân C. (Swansea East) (Lab) Bryant, Chris (Rhondda) (Lab) † Jones, Mr David (Secretary of State for Wales) Buckland, Mr Robert (South Swindon) (Con) Jones, Susan Elan (Clwyd South) (Lab) Cairns, Alun (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con) † Kawczynski, Daniel (Shrewsbury and Atcham) Caton, Martin (Gower) (Lab) (Con) Clwyd, Ann (Cynon Valley) (Lab) † Llwyd, Mr Elfyn (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) † Crabb, Stephen (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of Lucas, Ian (Wrexham) (Lab) State for Wales) Moon, Mrs Madeleine (Bridgend) (Lab) David, Wayne (Caerphilly) (Lab) † Morden, Jessica (Newport East) (Lab) (Morecambe and Lunesdale) Davies, David T. C. (Monmouth) (Con) Morris, David (Con) † Mosley, Stephen (City of Chester) (Con) † Davies, Geraint (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op) † Murphy, Paul (Torfaen) (Lab) (Montgomeryshire) Davies, Glyn (Con) † Newmark, Mr Brooks (Braintree) (Con) † Doughty, Stephen (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ † Owen, Albert (Ynys Môn) (Lab) Co-op) Ruane, Chris (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab) † Edwards, Jonathan (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) Smith, Nick (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab) (PC) † Smith, Owen (Pontypridd) (Lab) † Evans, Chris (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op) Tami, Mark (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab) † Evans, Jonathan (Cardiff North) (Con) † Williams, Hywel (Arfon) (PC) Flynn, Paul (Newport West) (Lab) † Williams, Mr Mark (Ceredigion) (LD) Francis, Dr Hywel (Aberavon) (Lab) † Williams, Roger (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD) † Griffith, Nia (Llanelli) (Lab) Willott, Jenny (Cardiff Central) Hain, Mr Peter (Neath) (Lab) † Hanson, Mr David (Delyn) (Lab) John-Paul Flaherty, Committee Clerk † Hart, Simon (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con) † attended the Committee 39 Welsh Grand CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Autumn Statement 40 Welsh Grand Committee Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Big bedrooms. Hywel Williams: Big bedrooms, yes—switching a few Wednesday 22 January 2014 lights on and off will not address the problem. If green levies are to be reduced, energy efficiency and fuel (Afternoon) poverty reduction schemes should be paid for out of progressive general taxation. Plaid Cymru believes that the burden should be placed on the higher end of the [MR DAI HAVARD in the Chair] income bracket. As a Welsh MP, I asked the Secretary of State for Autumn Statement Energy and Climate Change whether the cut in consumer bills would apply to off-grid consumers. That is important, 2pm particularly in rural Wales. In Gwynedd, for example, Question again proposed, about 44% of households are off-grid. I am afraid I That the Committee has considered the matter of the Autumn received a non-answer from him but, interestingly, a Statement as it relates to Wales. good deal of support from non-metropolitan Members—if I can call them that—on both sides of the House. Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): I will be brief because Another announcement in the autumn statement that I am aware that many hon. Members want to contribute received much attention was the plan to raise the state to the debate. pension age. Wales will be hit disproportionately by that There has been a catastrophic fall in bank lending in because of shorter life expectancy and a greater proportion Wales over the past five years and the Government’s of workers in so-called routine occupations. After 50 years funding for lending seems to be going into mortgages. of work in demanding, often manual occupations, working Last week at the Welsh Affairs Committee, we heard people in Wales will be expected to work even longer. evidence from Professor Dylan Jones-Evans, now of the Life expectancy in Wales is up to eight years shorter university of the West of England. In his earlier reports than in parts of southern England. For example, Dorset to the Welsh Government, he said that there is an has a life expectancy of 83 years for men, while in investment gap of £5 million in Wales and that approved Merthyr Tydfil it is 75 years. Wales also has more older funding for Welsh small and medium-sized enterprises people as a proportion of our population. There is, has fallen by 30% since 2011, even though interest rates therefore, more demand and more need for care and are at a record low. Therefore, we need a bank for Wales. associated public services. The hon. Member for Aberconwy asked me earlier That brings me back, finally, to the key issue of whether Finance Wales has been effective. Clearly, it has Barnett. I end by saying that the UK Government must been insufficiently so, to say the least. act urgently to ensure reform and establish fair funding The Grand Committee will shortly debate the Silk on the basis of need. That is where Plaid Cymru stands commission. I note for now that the UK Government and has always stood. It is a sorry state of affairs when are intent on the lockstep in income tax powers, and Wales has other parties that seem to be paralysed, that, for its part, the Labour party will not touch any possibly because of the fear that stirring up action will income tax powers until there has been funding reform. threaten the no campaign in Scotland. Alas, it is the I am not the only one who has sat through many people of Wales who are paying the price for their meetings of the Welsh Grand Committee being reassured political predilections. that the Barnett formula serves Wales very well and that we tinker with it at our peril. Now, with a degree of Several hon. Members rose— new-think rampant, everyone agrees that Barnett short- changes Wales by £300 million. However, as the First The Chair: Order. Before we continue, my understanding Minister confirmed to the Welsh Affairs Committee on is that, because of the situation in the main Chamber, Monday, nothing will be done on income tax until fair there is likely to be a vote at 2.43 pm, when I will funding is achieved. I tried to tempt him to reveal suspend for a quarter of an hour. However, that will Labour’s timetable for Barnett reforms, should Labour depend on whether there is one or two votes. If there are be so fortunate as to be elected into power in the UK in two votes, the suspension will last for 25 minutes, but 2015, but he unaccountably refused. No change there the suspension will be a quarter of an hour there is only then from the last 13 years of Labour rule in the UK. one vote. I will then reconvene. We will try to get better There will not be even a glimmer of change until, I intelligence as the day moves on. That is the campaign suppose, events in Scotland have played out. All the plan and it moves on now with the right hon. Member while, year on year, £300 million of potential investment for Torfaen. in the Welsh economy goes down the Swanee. Aside from the issue of greater financial powers for 2.5 pm Wales, a key announcement at the time of the autumn statement was on green levies—the Government’s attempt Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve to address the cost of ever-rising consumer energy bills. under your skilled chairmanship, Mr Havard. This morning For us, the blame for rising energy prices lies firmly with was a little hectic, I thought. I fear a consequence of the energy firms’ profiteering and with weak regulation. I Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 is that we will start heard the representative of one of the energy companies electioneering 15 months before a general election. on Radio 4 this morning saying that it was all down to Within seconds of the Secretary of State beginning to his daughters leaving the lights on when they left their speak, he mentioned the business of the deficit. My bedrooms. I am not sure he is entirely right. hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd vigorously and 41 Welsh Grand Committee22 JANUARY 2014 Autumn Statement 42 rigorously put a different point of view. Everybody will man, steelworkers were on very large salaries and coal doubtless accept that there is a deficit problem to deal miners earned a reasonably good salary. Now, of course, with. However, I sometimes wonder whether the those jobs have been replaced with retail. Sainsbury’s, Government accept that there was ever a banking crisis. for example, opened its largest supermarket in Newport Because of the enormity of that crisis, billions of pounds some years ago, and I suspect it employs between 500 and that could have been put into the public sector and into 1,000 people.