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MEDIA TRANSCRIPTS, INC. 41 WEST 83rd STREET NEW YORK, N.Y. 10024 (212) 362-1481 FOR Intelligence Squared US DATE 9/21/09 590 Madison Avenue - 30th Floor New York NY 10022 Buy American/Hire American policies will backfire Moderator: John Donvan For the motion: Jagdish Bhagwati, Douglas Irwin, Susan Schwab Against the motion: Leo Gerard, John R. MacArthur, Jeff Madrick RESULTS Before the debate: After the debate: For the motion: 57% For the motion: 72% Against the motion: 20% Against the motion: 14% Undecided: 23% Undecided: 14% JOHN DONVAN I would like to welcome the Chairman of Intelligence Squared U.S., Mr. Robert Rosenkranz. [APPLAUSE] ROBERT ROSENKRANZ Well, thank you all for coming. This is really exciting for us. This is a new venue, and it’s thrilling for us to be downtown in such magnificent space as this one. We have, of course, our new voting system which may have some flaws to iron out. We have a new relationship with Bloomberg Television that’s going to be televising these debates in addition to our longstanding relationship with National Public Radio, where these debates are heard in nearly two hundred radio markets around the country. We have a new relationship with Newsweek magazine that’s going to be publishing a Point/Counterpoint of what Media Transcripts, Inc. PROGRAM Rosenkranz Foundation-Intelligence Squared U.S. Buy American/Hire American Policies Will Backfire Page 2. goes on this evening. So my role in these proceedings is really to frame the debate, to say why it is we thought this was an interesting topic and why there’s a reasonable amount to be said on both sides. So, as taxpayers, Americans have funded about seven hundred and fifty billion dollars for the stimulus package, another seven hundred and fifty billion or more for TARP, to relieve the situation for financial institutions. And at a time of record unemployment doesn’t it make sense that these funds are used to the maximum extent possible to create jobs for Americans? Why not require that the institutions that receive this money hire American workers? Why not, that the state governments and others who are expending these funds buy American products? But let’s consider second order consequences. If we protect high cost domestic producers there’s a cost to that in the form of higher prices for everyone else -- every consumer, every state and local government. And then think about the third order effects – the reactions of foreign governments. We impose a tax, a tariff on tires, the Chinese retaliate with a tariff on chickens -- real world example of the last week or so. Well, which of these is most important -- the immediate benefit of U.S. job creation or the cost to U.S. consumers and the risk of retaliatory response from our trading partners? The future of the global Media Transcripts, Inc. PROGRAM Rosenkranz Foundation-Intelligence Squared U.S. Buy American/Hire American Policies Will Backfire Page 3. economy may depend on getting the answer right and we have an extraordinarily able group of panelists this evening who I think are going to shed some light on this important issue and it’s my pleasure at this point to turn the evening over to John Donvan. JOHN DONVAN Thank you, Robert, very much. [APPLAUSE] And this is the beginning of our fourth season and Robert Rosenkranz is why this is happening. So on this evening I just want to invite one more round of applause for Robert Rosenkranz. [APPLAUSE] Welcome to another debate from Intelligence Squared U.S. I’m John Donvan and I will be moderating the six people you see here on the stage with me at the Skirball Center for the Performing Arts at New York University. We have two tables, six debaters, three against three. We’ll be debating this motion: Buy American/Hire American Policies Will Backfire. And here, our debaters arguing for the motion that Buy American/Hire American Policies Will Backfire, Jagdish Bhagwati, University Professor, Economics and Law at Columbia University; [APPLAUSE] Douglas Irwin, Professor of Economics at Dartmouth College; [APPLAUSE] and Susan Schwab, former United States Trade Representative. [APPLAUSE] Arguing against the motion we Media Transcripts, Inc. PROGRAM Rosenkranz Foundation-Intelligence Squared U.S. Buy American/Hire American Policies Will Backfire Page 4. have Leo Gerard, International President of the United Steel Workers; [APPLAUSE] John R. MacArthur, President and Publisher of Harper’s magazine; [APPLAUSE] Jeff Madrick, Senior Fellow at the Schwartz Center for Economic Policy Analysis at the New School. [APPLAUSE] Now, this is a debate so let’s remind ourselves of what the stakes are. There will be winners and losers tonight. This is a contest. This is a contest of ideas and persuasion and perhaps wit and humor, facts. But you in the audience play a crucial role in this contest because you are the judges. We are polling you both before and after the debate to establish where you stand on our motion. I will be reporting them in just a little while, once we’ve had the first results tabulated. But once again, to remind you, our motion is that Buy American/Hire American Policies Will Backfire and we would like now to go to our vote for the final time. If any of the members of the audience still would like another chance to vote, if you put your hands up I’ll know that the answer to that is yes. And it looks like no. So everybody has, everybody has voted. So the results are being tabulated. We will have you a vote once again at the end of the debate and the side that has changed the most minds, who has moved the largest percentage into their camp in the course of the evening will be declared our Media Transcripts, Inc. PROGRAM Rosenkranz Foundation-Intelligence Squared U.S. Buy American/Hire American Policies Will Backfire Page 5. winner. Let’s get to the debate. Speaking for the motion first, [PAUSE] -- I’m sorry, I thought I had something out of the order. Speaking for the motion first, Douglas Irwin, a professor at Dartmouth College. Free Trade Under Fire is the title of his latest book and those four words will tell us why he is here to argue for the motion that Buy American/Hire American Policies Will Backfire. Douglas Irwin. [APPLAUSE] DOUGLAS IRWIN Well, I apologize if my voice is a little bit gravely but I used up most of it yesterday when I achieved a childhood dream of seeing the Green Bay Packers play at Lambeau Field. And I learned, aside from the fact that Green Bay can lose a game they’re supposed to win, I learned that you can get very funny faces on people’s faces when, very funny looks on people’s faces when you amble up to them in Green Bay and say, So what do you think of them Buy American provisions? [LAUGHTER] It doesn’t, it doesn’t work so well. It’s a real conversation stopper. What I’d like to do is remind you of the proposition before you tonight and that is whether Buy American provisions will backfire. In fact, they’ve already backfired so you have little choice but to vote for the affirmative. First of all, what is Buy American? Buy American Media Transcripts, Inc. PROGRAM Rosenkranz Foundation-Intelligence Squared U.S. Buy American/Hire American Policies Will Backfire Page 6. is a provision in federal legislation that mandates the purchase of U.S. made products in government contracts. Now, in some sense, who could be against Buy American? I want people to buy American products. I want a strong and healthy and vibrant American economy. I want good jobs and good wages for American workers. I think we can all agree on those propositions. But that’s not the issue. The debate here tonight is about the means to that laudable end. Buy America may sound like it’s a good idea, but the more you think about it, it’s actually counterproductive. Let me give you a specific example of what Buy America is. In the economic stimulus bill that we talked about earlier, that John Donvan mentioned -- it was passed by Congress earlier this year -- one section requires the use of American made steel in all stimulus related construction projects unless it costs more than twenty-five percent above foreign suppliers. Now, this is a good deal for the American steel industry but it’s a bad deal for the rest of us. By raising the cost of construction projects our nation can afford fewer of those projects. That means fewer jobs will be created with the limited amount of money we have to spend. If we have to pay a twenty-five percent premium for steel that leaves less money for all the other projects. In fact, this is not a trivial matter. Media Transcripts, Inc. PROGRAM Rosenkranz Foundation-Intelligence Squared U.S. Buy American/Hire American Policies Will Backfire Page 7. Picture in your mind for a moment the Bay Bridge in San Francisco. There’s a lot of steel in that bridge. California had to repair the bridge a few years ago and the Buy America provisions were enforced. The domestic steel bid came in at, guess what?, twenty-three percent above the foreign bid. Now, why it wasn’t twenty-four percent above, I don’t know. But that added four hundred million dollars to the cost to repair the bridge. That’s almost half a billion dollars for one project.